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I am a retired tower operator, having worked on ConRail, and in Grand Central Terminal. Need a copy of NYCTA rules book and air brake instruction book for my son, who will be taking a test soon. Can anyone help out or advise where I could get them?
Thanks.
--Ravgil
Try the Civil Service Bookshop at 212-226-9506.
Try the Civil Service Bookshop at 212-226-9506. They will have the civil service prep manuals for the particular exam. As far as a rulebook, you are on your own to try retired employees but I doubt if your son is taking an open competetive that he will need a rulebook anyway.
I'm in Chicago, and I'm kind of curious on how the third
rail exactly works. From my understanding, a positive current
is sent along the third rail, and the normal track, that the
train rolls on, is where the return current goes right?
If thats true, then you should be safe when walking at track
level as long as you don't touch the metal rail and the third
rail at the same time?
No one has ever been able to answer that specific question for me.
That is true. The third rail is supported on insulators resting on crossties. The third rail also has a protective board supported over it to prevent falling employees. Touching the third rail and a good ground will do nothing more than make you a "conductor" so please don't try it at home.
Not in Chicago. No cover in Chicago.
Basically, you have 600vDC on the third rail, and the running rails are the return to ground.
I'll ask my dad when he gets home....
-Hank
basically if you are properly insulated you could touch the third rail and not get electrocuted. On the other hand if you complete the circuit ie: running rail or wet ground and your TOAST! I wouldn't test the theory!
I have a follow-up question. Because one of the running rails is used as the return circuit for the current, if there were a break in the connection between two adjacent rails of the return circuit, could you get electrocuted by bridging that gap with your feet?
Well first of all there would have to train running in that section for there to be any return current at all. Second both rails would be used to return the current. Thrid, because the current had been used to do work, the cross rail gap potential (if any) will be much smaller than the rail-3rd rail potential. Fourth, a gap in the rail might be moot because (and I'm pretty sure this works with DC) all you really need is a ground. The current flows into the earth (which is considered to have an infinite negitive charge or something) and back at the substation or powerplant the negitive current returns from a rod pounded into the ground. I know that's how it works AC power grid. So I think there would be very little chance of an electric shock in a real world situation.
Mike. I don't think both rails are used for return current in the subway. One of the rails is used for the signal system using insulated joints. I always used to wonder why they had heavy jumpers welded between sections of running rail, and I think it relates to having to carry the return current. I may be wrong, but I'll say it anyway, if there is an open in a live circuit, then the full voltage appears across that gap.
Well technically I think they need to use both rails for signaling. A current travels up one, across and axle, back down to other and indicates the block is occupied, but one rail can be a dedicated track circut rail and it can short into the traction current rail and achieve the same result. Is this true? Is only one rail inslulated at track circut breaks on the NYC subway. On proper railroads and PATCO both rails have inslulated joints. Do they need complex divices to alow traction current to pass, but to keep the track circut energised?
NYCTransit uses single-rail track circuits. This means one rail
is used for both traction and signal (track circuit) current, the
other is just the signal current. You can tell by looking at the
copper bonds across rail joints. The pinky-sized ones are signal,
the thumb-sized bonds are power.
There are two bonds across every joint. If they both break or
go bad, and there is a train in the block, then the 600V traction
current will be looking for a place to return to ground. Generally
what will happen is it will simply arc across the joint and/or
conduct via the joint bars. Also, except at the end of the line,
there are two directions back to a grounded section of power rail
as the power rail is periodically bonded to ground return.
If the section of track is completely open on both sides with
no path for conduction, first the current will try to return via
the signal circuit, which will blow the signal track fuses. Then
the power return rail will be floating at 600 V. If you touch it
casually while grounded, you might get a little zing. There is
a leakage conductance to ground via the spikes and the wooden ties.
Enough of those in parallel is about equal to your body's
conductance so you wouldn't get really jolted.
OTOH, take a single subway car and run it up onto cardboard shims
so it is completely insulated from the running rails. Fun!
No, no. You weld it to the tracks with Thermite. Just mix Aluminum power, iron oxide and apply a stout eletrcical current. You get AL2O3 and molten Iron as a result. Can you say "not going anywhere"?
I like that! Harold, you writing this down?
I heard that some students at MIT did it once. The only problem is getting the AL powder. As soon as AL hits the air it becomes AL2O3 and you need to pure metal AL for the reaction. I'd try putting foil and Iron Oxide in a blender and chopping it up nice and fine. Then keep the mixture relitivly air tight untill you're reday to deploy. The more pure AL you have the easier it will be to start the reaction, but once you get it going there's no stopping it. Ask your local Chemisrty teacher for details.
Not if you plan on using the blender again.
I have directions somewhere for the thermite reaction. If you try hard enough, I am sure you can find some store with aluminum powder. But a blender is not going to give you fine enough powder.
You are correct that aluminum forms an oxide layer, essentially immediately, upon exposure to air. However, this does not really matter in the thermite reaction. The layer is thin enough (prob. not even a micron) that it will be penetrated under the conditions used in the thermite reaction, ie, high temperature. You cannot get this reaction going with a match, or even a torch (I think) - a piece of magnesium is used to light it.
Seriously, don't try this one at home without really doing your homework. If you managed to get it going, you could certainly burn your house down with this...imagine the pool of molten metal melting through the pot you are using, getting onto the table and floor, setting everything on fire...not good. Also, I can tell you from seeing the reaction that it produces a LOT of smoke.
So if you find a high-temperature crucible, Magnesium, iron oxide, and Al powder, have some fun. But do it outside!
The people who do this for real set up a crucible above the joint they will weld with the ingredients in it. The hole in the bottom of the crucible has a copper disc covering it. When the reaction gets going, the molten metal formed melts the copper so the molten metal can drain right into the mold they have formed around the joint. Of course, there is a lot of work that goes into preparing the rails for welding, annealing and shaping the metal after is is formed, etc., but I am not a welder so I can't really say much about that.
That's an urban legend. Some fellow college students & I discussed the same topic in the early 1960's.
I like the idea of the cardboard or a third rail mat under the rails to cover up a homeball incident. Since it is contract time, why not weld Joe Hoffman's doorknob closed with the thermite at 450 PM on a Friday. That would really be fun on Monday.
[Since it is contract time, why not weld Joe Hoffman's doorknob closed with the thermite at 450 PM on a Friday. That would really be fun on Monday.]
You really think he'd still be in his office at 4:50??? Heck, I remember when I worked at a courthouse in Connecticut, there was a standing joke (but true) that the most barren thing in the world was the judges' parking lot after lunch on a Friday. I'm sure it's the same was with TA bosses.
The building is a ghost town on a Friday after 2 or so. But let YOU try and leave 15 minutes early and your ass will be looking at a serious suspension. I hate double standards. I t makes it veryhard toave any respect for these so called superiors.
The building is a ghost town on a Friday after 2 or so. But let YOU try and leave 15 minutes early and your ass will be looking at a serious suspension. I hate double standards. It makes it very hard to have any respect for these so called superiors.
Had that problem once with a car that had sat for too long on rusted track. Had to jam a spike between the wheel and rail. Nice spark when the compressor started!
Is that why our maintainer friends in Jamaica yard replace fuses with copper pipes?
Just an aside to that Paul, And don't tell any delinquent kids this but if you close the curcuit between the 2 running rails of the LIRR at an RR crossing (either by laying a pipe on 'em or clamping booster cables on 'em) the gates will go down!!!!!
Just an aside to that Paul, And
don't tell any delinquent kids this but if
you close the curcuit between the 2 running rails of
the LIRR at an RR crossing (either by laying a pipe
on 'em or clamping booster cables on 'em) the gates
will go
down!!!!!
Just an aside to that Paul, And
don't tell any delinquent kids this but if
you close the curcuit between the 2 running rails of
the LIRR at an RR crossing (either by laying a pipe
on 'em or clamping booster cables on 'em) the gates
will go
down!!!!!
src="http://members.tripod.com/gifs123/page27/railroad.gif">
Only on LIRR?
hey... hey buddy.... your sitting in my seat!!!! MOVE!!
A friend of mine, in the transit business, has received advance copies of the November 15 G.O. for the LIRR. That is when the regular start of DM30AC (dual mode - diesel/third rail) is expected to begin. Please note that I do not have copies of these schedules, so the following information is second hand, and subject to change I'm sure!
At any rate, he says it looks like as of November 15, there is one round-trip from Oyster Bay, one from Speonk, and two from Port Jefferson that go directly from Penn Station.
So while the above isn't very specific, at least we now have an indication of what should be happening. I suggest that we all start looking for the November 15 schedules at our friendly LIRR station in the next week or so, and keep an eye out for the missing "J."
If anyone has additional facts, it would be great to hear!
Conductor told me the same thing when I went Penn-E. Hampton 8 days ago: November 15th.
I offer no facts, only speculation.
Since the East River tunnels are at capacity during the rush hour, I think it will be interesting to see which lines lose service to open up a space for the four dual modes.
I'll place my bet on 1 Long Beach (the 5:20 and 5:23 seem destined to be combined), 1 Far Rock, 1 Ronkonkoma and 1 Huntington. This is loosely based on the service pattern changes when they were replacing the ties between Woodside and Jamaica a few years ago.
Chuck
The weather was probably similar, by some accounts, 81 years ago today for the Malbone wreck.
Let us all remember what occurred 81 years ago today and take a moment of silence for those who died in the wreck.
I wonder if any survivors of Malbone Street are still alive today. As it was a rush-hour train, most of the passengers were adults, something that can be seen in Brian Cudahy's list of the dead. But chances are there were at least some children on board - some estimates say there were over 600 passengers at the time of the crash - and some of them might still be around.
If any were alive today they would have to be 86 or so (or older) to remember anything. Still would be hard to prove unless lists of the injured were recorded and still kept. Although my mom who is 86, was not anywhere near the wreck, she has the early stages of dementia. She remembers some things, doesn't remember others and mixes up the remainder. Therefore finding anyone alive today who survived the wreck and is still completely lucid to remember the event is fairly remote.
Actually, my grandmother's brother was on that train, and survived.
1918 was not a good year for her. She lost her father to the influenza epidemic only 1 month before the accident and had 2 brothers killed in WWI.
How come it took the TA some time before they changed the Q sign from the yelllow diamond to yellow circle then to orange circle? Was it because new roll signs needed to added to the cars????
3TM
79St, Transfer to the M79 on the street level. The next station will be 72St. Transfer to the M72 up on the street level. Stand Clear.....
I don't think the R-68's had the Q in the round background on it's roll signs and the R-68A's were on the D line.
Wayne
The R68 had roll signs designed back in a time when the Q was only a very limited, one way rush hour train.
I have the version of the sign which was installed on the r40/42s. It rolls side to side rather than top to bottom.
I will check when I go back to see what are on that version. I believe the "Q" is in 4 versions: Yellow and orange, circle and diamond.
If one looks closely on the R40s, one can see 2 versions of the orange circle Q: one with the slash going completelythrough the circle of the Q, and the other with the slash not going all the way through. (That one looks strange, IMHO)
I do not know what is on the R68 version, but I do believe the Q is in 2 colors. (Seen when the R68-Q's ran by Roosevelt Island.)
The R68s had the Q in yellow diamond.
The R68As had the Q in orange circle. (A couple of trains were screwed so it was ORANGE circle)
The R40s I'm not sure.
The R40's had the diamond. Brian
R-68, 1st 10 R-68 and older signs: yellow diamond Q
R-68A and newer signs (R-68 replacements, all rebuilds): round Q in both yellow and orange.
There's a thread going on in the Transit newsgroup about fonts in the subway. Generally, they use Helvetica, but I just a while ago posted about the 2 different types of Q (diamond sign on R-68, and round signs on most R-40/42 and replacements: tail is striaght and goes through the side of the letter. R-68 A and some r-40/42, tail is outside the letter only, and curved. I asked which of those was Helvetica, and what the other font was.
The one with the tail protruding from the lower right of the "Q" is probably Helvetica; the one with the tail through the circle is Arial.
Wayne
Where can I get a book(s) on everthing I need to know on the complete history of subway in the NYC? I do mean everything???
3TM
72St, transfer to the M72 on the street level. The next station will be 67St. Final transfer to the Q making express stops via 63St and Bway. Across the platform, the J and Z making express stops. Up on the street level, M66. Stand Clear of the closing doors......
The Transit Museum book shop in Brooklyn and the Grand Central Bookshop have excellent titles on subway history. I must say that there is no one book that has it all. The three best, in my opinion are:
"722 Miles". I forget the author's name but other's on this site will know. This book is the best for the early political history of the building of the subways.
Stan Fischler's "The Subway" has great old photographs and the history from a different angle. The items in the back with ratings of all the lines and the openings of all the routes is a must have.
Brian Cudhay's (I'm sure that is spelled incorrectly)"Under the Sidewalks of New York", is another excellent title.
There are several others out there which may go into better detail on some subjects these books only touch on, and there are better books for photos, such as "Cars of the BMT", etc. Doughery's book on the track maps is great, but the three are the best for an overhall history of the system.
I just remembered, "722 Miles, a History of the Subway", is by Clifton Hood.
Before the Chrystie Street Connection opened in November 1967,
there were four services on the BMT Broadway Brooklyn Line: J, JJ,
KK and M. When the Chrystie Street Connection opened, why was the
Broadway-Brooklyn Local lettered JJ instead of KK? On July 1st, 1968,
the 57th Street-6th Avenue opened, and KK trains ran during the rush
hours to/from 57th Street-6th Avenue via the Chrystie Street Cut,
and the Broadway-Brooklyn JJ local service was replaced by the KK.
Why was the Broadway-Brooklyn Local service only a PM rush hour ser-
vice, but not an AM and PM rush hour service like all the other lines?
Why was the KK not running to/from Canarsie like the old Broadway-
Brooklyn Local use to run? Why was the KK relettered K in late 1972
and cut back to Eastern Parkway only? Why did the K service stopped
running about 1975?
When the Chrystie Street Connection opened, the Jamaica Express
was relettered the QJ. But during the off hours, when it DOES NOT run
to Brighton Beach and Coney Island, why was it still called the QJ,
but not the JJ on the maps? Some trains displayed JJ when it only ran
to Broad Street.
Why was the Myrtle Avenue El MJ service torn down in 1969? They
could have rebuilt the el and returned it to normal service. Why did
they extend the rush hour M service to Broad Street in 1968, when the
KK debuted? When the M line was rerouted off the Brighton Line to the
West End Line in 1986, due to Manhattan Bridge track work, why did it
run express on 4th Avenue? The result was the B, M and N running exp-
ress and the R running local, causing the 4th Avenue express tracks
to be quite congested. Why did the M and N switched routes in 1994,
and had the M run local and the N express? Before it was the N local
and the M express.
Isn't this like the 482nd time you've asked these same questions, James?
But has anyone ever answered them?? (other than kma's great sarcastic answer "why not"
As for routing and letter designation, the only answer I can think of is TA preference. Did anything that the TA ever did make any sense??!! As for tearing down the Myrtle Ave. El, that's been the trend since 1938 in NYC. Get rid of the els! They're a blight on the neighborhood! Can't revitalize an area with an el making noise and darkening the street! Lets replace these dirty, noisy antiquated rapid transit lines with clean, quiet modern buses (deisel --cough, cough!). Like I mentioned in an earlier posting, Chicago and Miami don't have this mindset. Miami's Metrorail, which is a modern concrete el opened in 1983 and goes right through the heart of downtown. Same thing with Chicago's el, although it is much older. I close with my opening statement: Nothing the TA ever did ever made any sense!!!
Well, it made more sense back in 1938 and 1940 when most of the Manhattan els came down. Remember, back then a new subway line was opening up in New York every few years, so when those els came down, especially the Second Ave. el, there probably was the expectation that a subway would replace it within a very few years.
By the time the Myrtle Ave and Third Ave els in the Bronx came down, nobody should have exepcted to see anything but bus service for years to come. Just getting part of the Jamaica el replaced by a subway line in a mere 10 years is a major accomplishment nowadays.
If you look at the map, the IND Crosstown Line S/O Bway sort of parallels the Myrtle and duplicates it. Considering the low ridership the Myrtle had I think they had to do it. And you have to admit, from a non-railfan point of view, Myrtle Av looks a hellofa lot better now. Although I hated to see it go, its the equipment I miss, not the structure itself.
Of course the Japanese were very happy to get one of our torn down Els which we sold to them as scrap. They were so happy they paid us back by giving it to us back---at Pearl Harbor in 1941. Anyone remember?
That would be the 6th Ave. el, the only one torn down before the trade embargo with Japan was instituted. I found it amusing after the Japanese bought Rockefellar Center that their Air Force bombed Hawaii using metal from an American railroad which used to run right by their newly-bought property.
As my father said at the time: "Didn't we win that war?"
I hope you'll be there extolling the vitues of modern els when the people of Astoria pack the public hearing on the N extension to LaGuardia chanting "we don't want it we don't need it."
Yes, many times.
Take it easy. Now the questions are directed to the Eastern Division.
Letter markings on the Eastern Division did not come into being until the Chrystie St. connection opened. The M was formerly #10; MJ was #11 (neither of which ever appeared on the trains themselves); JJ was #14; QJ was #15. The catch was these number markings weren't seen on trains unless they consisted of R-16s or multisectionals.
Why did the JJ run the way it did during rush hours? Because the Broadway-Brooklyn local was initially retained between Phase 1 (11/26/67) and Phase 2 (7/1/68) of the Chrystie St. opening. The old #14 was a rush hour service which ran skip-stop with the 15 along Jamaica Ave in the morning, but only went as far as Crescent St. in the afternoon - or turned off to Atlantic Ave with some trains continuing to Rockaway Parkway. The 14 terminated at Canal St. in Manhattan, as did JJ trains during rush hours. During non-rush hours, JJ trains duplicated the old #15 Jamaica local; during rush hours, they duplicated the 14.
When the QJ made its debut, it was a Mon-Fri, 6:00 AM-8:00 PM operation which ran to Brighton Beach, hence the hybrid Brighton-Jamaica marking. On July 1, 1968, the JJ was dropped, essentially putting an end to the Broadway-Brooklyn local service as it had existed. The Broadway Junction flyover has not seen regular revenue service since then. The KK sort of took over for the JJ as far as skip-stop service along Jamaica Ave. was concerned. The QJ became a 24/7 operation, cutting back to Broad St. during evenings, nights, and weekends. On August 18, 1968, it and the QB swapped Brooklyn terminals with the D, running all the way to Coney Island. As to why it kept the QJ marking during weekends, it may have caused too much confusion - as if there wasn't enough already!
The KK became the K in 1973 and was cut back to Broadway Junction. It was eliminated three years later partly due to budget cuts, and partly because most people got off at Essex St. and changed to an F anyway. IIRC, there were far fewer KK/K trains than F trains.
I heard somewhere that the main reason the KK was eliminated was because the condition of the subway fleet had become so bad that there was never a guarantee that there would be enough working subway cars to meet rush hour demands over the entire system, so certain lines were shortened/eliminated to prevent the system from collapsing totally. I also heard this was why the EE was eliminated around the same time and the N was extended to Forest Hills.
The M was the Myrtle-Chambers Street Express until 1976, when it
replaced the QJ service to Coney Island. I was surprised that some of
the M trains to Coney Island were marked MM. When the M service was
rerouted to the West End-4th Avenue line in 1986, why did the M run
express on 4th Avenue? As a result in September 1990, there were three
express trains from Pacific Street to 36th Street: B, M and N. This
caused some congestion. The M has not returned to the Brighton Line
because it's no longer needed. Riders want local trains directly to
Midtown Manhattan.
When they kept the QJ marking on weekends, why were some trains
marked JJ? I saw a J train in a 1986 picture and it was marked JJ
instead of J. When did the Jamaica El started shortening? How did they
shorten the El to 121st Street by 1985, and re-extended it to the
Archer Avenue Tunnel in 1988? Why is the Archer Avenue Tunnel a deep-
bored tunnel between 121st Street and Sutphin Blvd?
I can't answer all your questions, but the Jamaica Avenue Line was closed between Queens Blvd. and 168th Street in 1977. The structure was torn down between Sutphin Blvd. and 168th Street in 1980. The Queens Blvd. and Kew Gardens Road stations were closed in 1983. That terminated service at 121st Street. The connection to the Archer Avenue subway was opened in 1988. The structure between 121st Street and Sutphin Blvd was torn down in 1991.
As to why they did deep boring, my quess is for two reasons.
1) The lines proximity to the Long Island Rail Road and
2) The J and Z trains go under the Van Wyke Expressway and under the tunnel for the E train. It goes down fairly deep. Too deep for cut and cover.
Couple of corrections about the Jamaica Ave. el:
The 168th st, 160th st. and Supthing Blvd stations were closed in September 77 and demolished almost immediatley. The structure east of Supthin Blvd was gone by 1979.
The Queens Blvd. (the terminal from Sept. 77 on) and the Metropolitian Ave stations were closed in April 85 and demolished in late 90-early 91.
I remember when they raized the Sutphin Blvd to 168th back in 1980. You may be right about the Queens Blvd and Metro closings.
Trust me, it was gone before then. They couldn't
wait to tear it down.
Also at that time All Single Letter Trains, A B D E F etc were Express Services, AA CC,EE GG etc were local services. This change later on but I am not sure what year
1985 was the year all double letters were either shortened (GG to G) or changed (AA to K).
The change to single letters on the IND/BMT took place in 1986.
1985 to be exact.
Also to the old Myrtle-Chambers 10 Line, they were used on the Multis and later the R-16s from 55 on
The R16's that ran on the J line towards the end had either the orange JJ signs and the black QJ signs. They used the JJ signs becaused it was less confusing. The R30 and R42 cars assigned to that line did have the correct signage.
BTW, it wasn't until 1983 that the cars on the J line actually had correct northern terminal signs after the J was cut back to Queens Blvd. The R16's either said 111th St. or 168th St. The R37/30 always said 168th St. Only the odd R42 would have correct signage. This problem also happened when the line was further cut back to 121 st. The R30's said Queens Blvd. and the R16's said 111th St. It wasn't until overhauled R42's appeared in 1987 that 121 st. was actually seen.
You probably saw J trains with R16s which had the multi-colored side signs. There was no J reading, just JJ and QJ. Rather than give riders the impression that the train was going all the way to Stillwell, they prob. stuck with JJ since that never went past Nassau Street.
Just a thought.
11/04/99
The [MM] designation was for a possible 6th Avenue route.
Bill Newkirk
MM was found in color on the R32 bulkhead roll, and the R16 bulkhead and side rolls. It was also on the Eastern Division R7 and R9 cars. Not sure if it was also on the R27/R30 car rolls.
I only saw "MM" on one train - an R7/R9 "M" shuttle which, on December 27, 1969, I rolled all of the side signs to.
Wayne
You mean to tell that a J train from Jamaica can turn onto the Canarsie el??
3TM
28St. The next station will be 23St. Transfer to the X: 23St Crosstown-Myrtle El. On the street level the M23. Stand Clear......
No, I think he meant that the E/B trains on Bway from the Williamsburg Br switched onto the S/B Canarsie Line to Atlantic Av.
In 1932, the first IND Subway line opened. By 1941, all of the
IND Lines were running: A, AA, BB, CC, D, E, F, GG and HH. Why was
the plan was to have ALL Manhattan trains from other boroughs run
express in the other boroughs as well? Because today's F train tracks
from the Rutgers Street Tunnel eventually become the express tracks
to Church Avenue south of Jay Street, if you follow the "Main" route.
Why were the express tracks not used, except from 1968-1975 during the
rush hours, when the F ran express and GG ran local. Today's A and C
lines from the Cranberry Street Tunnel to Jay Street, then Hoyt-
Schermerhorn, eventually become the express tracks to Euclid Avenue.
Why did they run the Manhattan trains local and some express, INSTEAD
OF having an HH train from Court Street to Euclid Avenue local and ALL
Manhattan trains express? In May 1999, why did they have the C run
local and the A express during evenings and weekends as well from
Hoyt-Schemerhorn Streets to Euclid Avenue?
In 1967, when the Chrystie Street Connection opened, the BB was
relettered the B and the B and D ran to the BMT Southern Division.
Why did the B ran local on 6th Avenue from 1968-1985 during off hours?
Why is the B now express on 6th Avenue all times instead? I remember
when I was little, the B used to be local on 6th Avenue during the
non-rush hours. Why did they change this in 1988, when the B and D
resumed normal Manhattan Bridge Service?
In March 1998, why did the B and C trains switched their north-
ern terminals? Both terminals have easy yard access. The B terminating
at 168th Street can go back to the 207th Street Yard and the C ending
at Bedford Park Blvd can easily access the Concourse Yard like it use
to be doing? Why were these routes switched?
Sometime, around 2001, the 63rd Street Connection will open.
Will the E and F trains change or keep their normal routes in Queens?
If there is a V train, where will it terminate in Queens? Will the G
train be cut back to Court Square 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Will
the G be extended to Church Avenue and the F will run express in
Brooklyn?
Perhaps the simple answer is "ridership patterns and available funding".
--Mark
I guess they thought it would be best that way.
In March 1998, why did the B and C trains switched their northern terminals? Both terminals have easy yard access. The B terminating at 168th Street can go back to the 207th Street Yard and the C ending at Bedford Park Blvd can easily access the Concourse Yard like it use to be doing? Why were these routes switched?
The answer is easy: to simplify the northern terminal of C train.
Since June 1994, C train began to use 168 Street as the northern terminal on weekends. Before terminal switching, here are the terminals for B and C trains:
B train:
(1) 168 Street on rush hours and middays.
(2) 21 Street-Queensbridge on evenings and weekends.
(3) 36 Street/4 Av on nights.
C train:
(1) Bedford Park Blvd on rush hours.
(2) 145 Street on middays and evenings.
(3) 168 Street on weekends.
If you look at these terminals, aren't they too much? Do you want to simplify it? If you do, how do you simplify at least one line? Then you can understand why B and C train switched northern terminals in March 1998.
Chaohwa
Will the E and F trains change or keep their normal routes in Queens?
If there is a V train, where will it terminate in Queens? Will the G
train be cut back to Court Square 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Will
the G be extended to Church Avenue and the F will run express in
Brooklyn? >
Any answer to this is aguess, pure and simple. The 'Powers That Be' at Jay St haven't let anybody know what will finally happen. But the instant that they do, it will be all over this site.
The reason for weekend express service along Fulton St. is twofold:
1. Because of the Williamsburg Bridge shutdown, passengers needed another way to get to Manhattan. With the anticipated increase in ridership, it was a sensible thing (no!!!!!) to do.
2. Weekend ridership on Fulton St. was on the upswing anyway. Since the express tracks are already there, why not utilize them?
There was an HH shuttle from Hoyt-Schermerhorn to Court St. between 1936 and 1946. It was discontinued due to very low ridership. The Court St. stub was supposed to be eventually connected to the dead end local tracks at WTC, and the 2nd Ave. line would have branched off this connection.
The IND put major emphasis on four-track trunk lines everywhere. The G is the one exception, and several Phase 2 lines would have been two-track as well. The S. 4th St. and Utica Ave. lines were planned as four-track lines. The Fulton St., Queens, and South Brooklyn lines are all four-track.
Yet the Concourse line is 3 tracks. Go figure ...
Not hard to figure. It's in the Bronx.
There was a thread about this some time ago. Supposedly, it was a matter of money vs. time. Bronx residents were given a choice of waiting an additional year if they wanted a four-track line, or having a three-track line built now. Most opted for the latter.
But what was the rush? the Lexington Ave. IRT was just a half block away, and back then it was supplemented with 9th Ave. el service as well.
In 1968, when the KK service debuted, the B ran local whenever
the KK was NOT running. But now even during off hours, why are the B
trains running express between 34th Street and West 4th Street? In
the past, B service was local between 34th Street and West 4th Street.
I remember boarding a B train from 57th Street to West 4th Street on
the weekends, and it was local to West 4th Street.
F trains are frequent enough not to put B trains on 6 Avenue Local during weekends.
Another point to remind: simplify the service of B trains. Don't you think B train service in the 70s is too complicated to understand?
Chaohwa
It's pretty darn complicated now, as the B has FOUR possible northern terminals. Those northern destination signs in the R68A's are going to be broken if that keeps up.
I agree with you. Bedford Park Blvd, 145 Street, 21 Street-Queensbridge, and 36 Street are too much for me. Except for late night West End shuttle, at least B trains are on 6 Avenue Express.
If my memory is right, when Manhattan Bridge was reconstructed in the 80s, B and D trains moved to Broadway line. The northern terminals of B line were ridiculous.
Ditmars Blvd, Queensboro Plaza, 57 Street/7 Av, 168 Street, and 36 Street. Man o' man! Incredible!
Chaohwa
One time they were two B lines, one to 57th Street and the other to 168th Street. The one terminating at 57th Street made local stops, while the one terminating at 168th street made express stops via 6th Avenue.
And this was around 1983. Does anyone remember this arrangement?
At this time I was (see below):
N Broadway Express
This arrangment lasted from the end of K service (76) to the Manhattan Bridge closure of 1986. Half of the B trains went uptown to 168th st. and the other half went to 57th. At rush hours, BOTH B trains ran express from 34-W4. Other times, it went local.
The 168 St trains ran in both directions during the rush hour, as did the 57/6 trains in the non-rush. During the rush things got interesting for the 57 St trains.
AM Rush ntbd Coney Island to 57/6
AM Rush stbd 57/6 to 2 Av then W 4 St then light to layups at 2Av(I think) and Church Av (Culver)
PM Rush ntbd lite from layup to Bway-Lafayette then to 57/6
PM Rush stbd 57/6 to Coney Island
Larry,RedbirdR33
After 1976, car assignments on the 6th Avnue were unique as
follows:
168th Street to Coney Island-R-10's, R-32's, R-42's, some R-16's
and R-27/30's
57th Street and 6th Avenue to Coney Island-R-16's, R-27/30s, some
R-32's and R-42's
When the B made its debut, R-32s provided base service. At least that's all I ever saw on the B back then. They still had their original roller curtains, and these had only BB signs. B overlays were pasted over the BB signs, both on the bulkhead and side route roller curtains. Consequently, the side curtains read, "B-6th Ave. local".
I remember seeing one or two B trains of R-1/9s which, of course, had B signs. The side markings varied; some cars had "B-6th Ave. express" displayed while others had the "BB-6th Ave. local" version. Perhaps the crews didn't crank the roller curtains far enough. Or maybe someone got cute and changed a sign or two. No, not me. I did it once on a BMT standard, but never again.
What are the car assignments now and from what yards?
Why is there no 0 train? Would people think its an oh train and think they're on the IND?
When they named the KK train,did the Grand Wizard complain that the TA stole the name?
Why was the B named the B when there are 23 other letters?
When talking about the IND/BMT should we use the terms B.C. or A.D. (Before Christie or after)
Is it possible to have a 7 car train using Triplexes?
If the wreck never happened would Empire Blvd still be Malbone Street?
When they named the "L" train didn't they think people would confuse it with "el train"
Do Spanish people think "el train" means "the train"?
Your answers:
That's a double negative! Go to English Class, go DIRECTLY to English Class, do not pass GO do not collect $200.
I have no idea what your talking about
Because it's the B, if it wasn't the B, then it wouldn't be the B. Not any train can be the B, only the B can be the B. 9 out 10 use the Bell Atlantic B to B.
I assume A.D. stands for Ano Defferedmaintenanci.
Why would you need to have a train carrying cars on the 7? How would you fit cars on the Triplex? How would you fit the Triplex on the 7? How would you fit the 7 on a purple circle? How would you fit a purple circle on a train? How would you fit a train carrying cars on the 7? Am I having a fit?
The question is if the wreck HAD happened, would Malbone Street be Empire Boulevard?
They weren't people? Who were they? Or were they trying to confuse themselves?
Maybe if they live and work in the valley of the L train. But I thought they weren't people.
If you're referring to a train of 7 Triplex units lashed together, you'd be talking about a long, long train - over 900 feet. Even a standard 660-foot IND platform wouldn't be long enough to acommodate such a train. The longest Triplex trains were four units, and that was the equivalent of an 8-car train of BMT standards. A 7-unit train of Triplexes would equal 14 BMT standards. I suppose it could be done theoretically.
There are 25 additional letters in the English alphabet besides B. Since IND lines favor the northern terminal, and since the B combined the Washington Heights/6th Ave. local with the West End express, that is the most likely reason the letter B was chosen.
I think you got caught by someone trying to have a bit of fun with James's habit of asking repetative questions. Note the lack of an e-mail address, which the real Mr. Li supplies.
I gotta admit I cracked up with his "Do spanish people think el train means the train?" bit.
The predecessor of the B as we know as it is was the BB, Under the IRT it was a RusH Hour Only Local which ran from 34th St/Herald Square to 168th/Wash Hts. When this train ran there was no AA Local, The lower 8th Ave portion was the CC from WTC/Hudson Term to Bedford Pk Blvd. The B now is a combination of the old West End T/TT and the old BB lines with a few minor changes. Now it runs on 6th Ave Rather then Bdwy, and the new change to the Concourse. Basically the trunk lines are the same. If you look not many changes occured on other 8th Ave lines since then except change of terminals. The Q switches back from 6th to Bdwy, C runs more often,
On the contrary, I think Steve was keeping the joke going, especially with the triplexes.
We have just received the powered floor units for the Images Replicas Plastic IRT Subway Car Kits.
The floor is brass as are the trucks. Power is provided by a "Canon" Can motor with a flywheel through a gearbox type drive.
The floor units have been produced for us by the same builder that produced our HO Scale BMT R32/R38 Subway Cars which have recently been received and are now sold out.
The powered floor units are available through our authorized dealers and by direct mail. Retail price is $145.00 per unit (plus tax for New York residents).
MTS Imports, Inc.
Because the leaves are changing colors now, I went to NYC yesterday to take photos on subways with changing leaves as background. I spent yesterday moring on the Brighton line to observe which place has a colorful background. I went to Broad Channel in the afternoon to take photos on A trains.
Here is my question. What station or route can I see changing leaves as the background?
Here are my suggestions:
(1) Brighton line
(2) Dyre Av line
(3) Dyckman street #1 station.
Chaohwa
I would say the Brighton line between Newkirk and Beverley Rd....
3TM
59St-Queensboro Bridge, transfer to the N,R,4,5,6 trains via passageway. The M31,M57,Q32,Q60,Q101 to Queens. Fulton St bound P making local stops. The next local stop will be 50St. Transfer to the M27 and M50 on the street level. Step in Step off and Stand Clear of the closing doors........
Brighton Line at Avenue "H" might work; That creepy weeping willow opposite the upper-level Wilson Avenue platform on the "L" is about ready to burst into a blaze of yellow. New Lots on the "L" has lots of trees around it too.
Wayne
Ah, a Subway Buff I can relate too ... what a pleasent thing to do !
Why not work in a museum, SI Ferry or other tourest spot & bring the family ... maybe they'll get hooked on subways as a fun thing to do.
My daughter took the LIRR & subway to the parade Sunday from Stonybrook ... think I've got her hooked.
Mr t__:^)
I worked the parade. (RDO O/T) How'd she like it? Its one of the crazier parades in NY.
The Halloween Parade in the Village is one of those NYC things that everyone HAS to do at least once in their life !
My daughter & her boy friend went in costome, which is what prpoerly dressed spectators do. They went to Jeckle & Hide for a bite after.
P.S. A friend from the TA was on her way home from a Broadway play and had one of the marchers board her train ... he was dressed as a flasher (NOT the electric type).
Mr t__:^)
I second that. I used to participate in the parade, one of many others who'd put refrigerator boxes together, grafitti them up, get a few friends and go as the A train ..... when it went up Washington Square South, a seat in the Bobst Library at NYU was a great way to watch it on those cold nights ....
It's been a while so I'm not sure if the parade route still goes up Washington Square South .....
--Mark
Did you hear that Fred Sea Beach Man, Brighton is number 1, no mention of the SLOW SEA BEACH
Ask Sea Beach Fred about the Doo-Dah Parade held in Pasadena Ca, now that is a weird parade
Chao Hwa and Bob: Wierd doesn't begin to cover it. It is a montrosity. Every wierdo and his uncle are in it. It started out as a spoof on our Rose Parade which is a big event out here. Some thought that this was an exploitation of ???? Who knows. There were just a bunch of people in the early 70's who got turned off my the Rose Parade and what it stood for. Actually, when I go to the Da-Dah Parade I laugh my pants off and find it entertaining. But it is case for nuts.
But it is case for nuts.
Isn't that the definition of California anyway - the land of fruits and nuts? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon e mouse--You're thinking of the hookworm belt, namely the South, I believe. This is one Californian that will not let an insult to his state pass without rebuttal. We have the best climate, the best agriculture, the best high tech, and we are the most influential and important state in the country. Ask any Presidential candidate? Even our oranges are the best but we don;t grow as many as before because our land is too valuable for that. If you know as much as you think you do you would be aware that Florida oranges have to be sprayed orange because their natural color is yellowish. Not ours. We consider California to be God's country and we know envy and jealousy when we see it. So on things concerning the NYC subway, TV, and sports go wail away. But as for your diatribe against my state--BUZZ OFF.
Hey relax. You also have more earthquakes and mudslides.
-Dave
Remember Fred, when you're out of NY you're out of Town!!!!
The sun is out today here and it's a pleasant 75 degrees with clear weather as far as the eye can see. How's the weather in your neighborhood. Not so good I would say. Lay off California. We're not No. 1 for nothing.
When you're out of New York you're out of town..........
We have a saying out here Jeff. It goes something like this:
"If you're not from California, you aren't worth a damn."
You are from the greatest city in the country, I'll grant you that.
I love the subway system and I'm a proud native New Yorker, but while you reside in the greatest city in the country, I happen to reside in the greatest state in the union.
Then why are more people moving out of California too???
There you go again Brighton Beach Bob: If you had checked it out we now are on the plus side of people moving in from other states because of our booming economy. We will be picking two or three more Congressmen the next reapportionment. California is on the move, and even tough we have our share of reverses, it's always full speed ahead. We are the greatest state and that;s a fact. Get used to it.
Still too crowded, 50 minutes to a hour on the 405 from LAX to the Valley, no decent public transportation. etc. In order to get me to move back to So Calif, you would have to build me a house, and offer me at least $50,000 a year AFTER TAXES
You gotta go through the rest of the state the next time you come back. Forget Bklyn and the Sea Beach. Drive the Taconic State Pkway to Albany, then the Adirondacks Northway between Albany and Canada. Go to Saratoga and Lake George. Take a boat ride on Lake George. See the Finger Lakes. Go to Niagra Falls (Hey Paul, don't start the Slowly I Turn routine), How about Howe Caverns, West Point, Bear Mountain? Also the Catskills. Also the Champlain Bridge over Lake Champlain between NY & Vermont. Even parts of Eastern L.I. are beautiful. I've been all over NY State mostly by motorcycle. Not only is NYC the greatest city in the world but NYS is the most beautiful State in the union, especially now with the fall foliage.
Jeff: Kuddos to you for being such a loyal New Yorker. I was in Cooperstown last summer as well, and drove back via Highway 28 through the mountains. You are right about certain things. The country is beautiful and scenic. However, in a few weeks you're going to be freezing your nooncies off while I bask in warm sunshine. And if I don't want to bask in warm sunshine at our beautiful beaches, I can traverse into the mountains and snow. You talk about beauty. Have you ever seem Yosemite and Sequouia National Parks. Or the fantastic beauty of the central coast? Nothing like it in the whole world. Or the south coast of Laguna, Dana Point, down to San Diego. God's Country. Remember I'm a native New Yorker and I'm not here to denegrate your state, but I'll be damned if I will let anyone do that to my state. Next time I'm in NY, though, I'll take you up on that and inspect some of your scenic spots. Chao.
Both of you guys are right, both states have it s beauty and bad parts. Fred, Northern California so so much prettier the So Calif except for the Beach Areas, remember So Calif is mostly reclaimed desert, go out to the LA Basin and there is really nothing. The Hudson Valley is gorgious, I love taking the train when I visit my brother in No Westchester. Both places have its good and bad. California is just too big though, Fred it is not the way it was when we were younger in the 60s
Both of you guys are right, both states have it s beauty and bad parts.
This is entirely correct. All this dispute over which state is better is absurd. There is good and bad, beauty and ugliness in all 50 states. It is just a personal preference as to what you like and where you want to live. 'Nuff said, I hope.
All in fun, Bob and Fred are friends.
I hope Fred read Subway Steve s long fan trip. The Brighton was impressive, and the Sea Beach was drap, and a lost cousin to the Brighton Line. Yeh, right on
Brighton Bach Bob: You got me again. I was told, however, that there is going to be some real work done on my line to make it up to snuff. I won't hold by breath too long, however. But I'll be a Sea Beach man until the day I die.
Jeff: You are right Bob and I are friends. We are each other's foil but it all in fun. In fact, I hope you are in the same category. I am having a blast on this website because we cover everything, and yet, it seems to be all related to the subway system. Just for the record, I am of the firm belief that a person who denies his roots and heritage isn't worth a damn. I'm a Californian but I was New Yorker for the first 14 years of my life and I always look forward to coming back and visit. It's just that I'm one of those unusual people that is a California booster. Most people here can let criticism run up their sleeves, but I'm not one of them. I truly love California.
But I do miss those crumb buns and the local candy stores of my youth in New York. I also miss the Brooklyn Dodgers and the Coney Island that was something special. I know in this I have a lot of company.
There is beauty all over these United States, but I do think NY State has got a lot of it.
Anyway, I took a drive on Route 28 yesterday (Sunday 11/7), heading west from Kingston. I noticed along the way a restored railroad car sitting at a parking area on the noth side of the road. Are you familiar with this and what the story is behind its being there?
I have never been there, but there is a trolly museum in Kinston, New York., similar to the one at Branford, Connecticut. I believe the museum in Kingston also has some old NYC subway cars it its collection, and that may be what you saw.
No, no, I went there (in part) to check out TMNY, and it was closed for the season. This was about a half-hour west of Kingston - a railroad car, I think a caboose.
Dan, there are a couple of tourist railroads up in that neck of the woods. I don't specifically remember which one that belongs to - Delaware and Ulster Rail Ride or some such, perhaps? - but I've seen it before in my wanderings. You were near Arkville, correct?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you were on Rt 28 and the car was north of the road it would be the Catskill Mountain RR at Phoenicia. If the cars were south of the road it would be the Delaware and Ulster at Arkville.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. It was Phoenicia. But I think the car was marked Delaware and Ulster, or some very similar name. There was a single-track rail line (yes, the Catskill Mtn. RR) alongside the road, but I think this car was permanently mounted where I saw it, at this parking area, and therefore could not have been on the main track, perhaps on a siding?
I didn't see it until I was passing it and therefore I couldn't stop and take a closer look. (OK, I guess I could have turned around and gone back, but I didn't.)
Dan: That was the Catskill Mountain RR. The caboose serves as a gift shop during the season, nearby theres another restored caboose used by the local chamber of commerce.
Larry,RedbirdR33
City Riots, Brush Fires,
How long does it take get repsonse as to whether or not an applicant is called in to take the exam.
You'll get a card in the mail telling you the time and location of the test.You'll probably have to bring the card with you for admission.
you'll have to bring the card to the test sight or you won't be admitted to the test.
DCWAS will send it to you at the last minute. Obstensibly to keep applicants from misplacing their cards. You should get it a week or two before hand.
Fred, why don t you go as a Triplex Sea Beach to Coney island Train, the un-scenic way to go
Bob: What was this in reference to? I forgot.
There's a link on every page to the message it was in response to. Unless, of course, it's an original message.
DOO DAH PARADE ON COLORADO BLVBD< GO AS THE SEA BEACH EXPRESS
Why Don't a bunch of us SubTalkers adopt a subway car at a museum. Those of us who live a long way from NYC could donate cash to a dedicated fund at the museum which hosts "our" car and local residents could volunteer their efforts to restore, preserve and eventually house the car. We could call our little group SubTalk: Friends of the R-XX (fill in the contract #)
Sounds like an excelent idea. I'm sure someone here can put you in touch with Mike Hanna at Coney Island. If those he has aren't your favorites then consider one of the fine museums in the area. All can surely put the money to good use. Todd, Erick, Bob & I can think of a few subway cars that would benifit from some hard cash. I added Bob Diamond in case PCCs are your thing.
BTW, I and a few Subtalker friends will be doing some track work this Saturday & Sunday at Shoreline.
Mr t__:^)
Hey come on up! We just got 600 volts for shop testing cars at TMNY. 6398 is all ok. The trolley wire project is humming along nicely as well. We had few trees down on the line and as any other museum, we are always in need of people to help out.
Excellent idea. Now who wants to help iniate your plan?
-Stef
I should say "initiate". Sorry for the typo.
-Stef
Also how about the MTA getting companies to adopt a train or a station like they do in areas across the country, to pay for the cleanup and maintance of a area, it is tax deductible, and that way the MTA could use the money for building new rail lines, etc
Also how about the MTA getting companies to adopt a train or a station like they do in areas across the country, to pay for the cleanup and maintance of a area, it is tax deductible, and that way the MTA could use the money for building new rail lines, etc I mean like adopt a Highway Program, they even have it in Hawaii
I write this post in remembrance of the 97 who lost their lives when the Brighton Beach Local-Express ran out of control into the Malbone Street Tunnnel almost exactly 81 years to the minute from the time I post this. Please hope our railfan trips do not end with such a terrible occurence. Instead of reading the next post, pause, and remeber the 97 who died 81 years ago.
(Something should have been placed in their honor on the new Franklin Shuttle).
I write this post in remembrance of the 97 who lost their lives when the Brighton Beach Local-Express ran out of control into the Malbone Street Tunnnel almost exactly 81 years to the minute from the time I post this. Please hope our railfan trips do not end with such a terrible occurence. Instead of reading the next post, pause, and remeber the 97 who died 81 years ago.
(Something should have been placed in their honor on the new Franklin Shuttle).
97 died when the crash ocurred. Another 5 died in the hospital bringing the total to 102. I agree that a plaque should be placed on the shuttle in the victims' honor. Except for railfans, very few people around NYC know about the Malbone St. wreck. The plaque should be placed at Prospect Park because that station is closest to where the disaster occurred. Fact is, very few people have even heard of Malbone St.
[97 died when the crash ocurred. Another 5 died in the hospital bringing the total to 102.]
There's some debate about the actual death toll. 97 and 102 seem to be the most common claims. Brian Cudahy, in his new book _The Malbone Street Wreck_, makes a fairly convincing case for a death toll of 93, but leaves open the possibility that it could have been somewhat higher.
I can't seem to find a consistent agreement about what John Hyla actualy had done to him that caused him to hate the BRT either.
It is arguable that Hylan originally developed an antipathy to the Brooklyn system when he was fired while a locomotive engineer. This incident really did happen (Hylan refers to it is his biography).
I think that the event as the sole source of Hylan's anti-transit attitudes is improbable. He was a natural-born demagogue and has William Randolph Hearst's choice for Mayor.
You can learn a little more from my review of Clifton Hood's 722 Miles at rapidtransit.net. You can learn much more by reading of the book.
According to the "Malbone Street Wreck" Hylan didn't care for the IRT either.
Hylan didn't care for privately owned transit. Neither did Hearst. They were a perfect match.
Hylan did seem to have a particular eagerness vis-a-vis the BRT. Whether his earlier experience contributed to that (or to his anti transit company attitudes in general) is a matter of reasonable speculation.
Hylan spent years getting to the position of locomotive engineer. Even though you could say he was fired not far in advance of resigning (he was already working on his legal career) it would hardly be unique for such an incident to color his thinking, whether or not it rose to the level of a "grudge."
A mad lawyer with a grudge. As scary as a disguntled postal worker.
Malbone Street was one of the first things I learned about the subway. After IND, BMT and IRT of course.
The Malbone Street wreck sent the BRT into receivership, and
it was eventually reorganized as the BMT. In addition, Malbone
Street was renamed Empire Boulevard.
[The Malbone Street wreck sent the BRT into receivership, and
it was eventually reorganized as the BMT. In addition, Malbone
Street was renamed Empire Boulevard.]
Not true as to the receivership issue. The BRT was in bad shape even before the wreck, which had no significant affect on its finances.
There's a small stretch of road, east of the crash site, that's still called Malbone Street.
Right Peter. That small stretch of Malbone Street is across from the 71st. Precinct just off New York Ave. I think alot of the cops use as a lot to park their personal cars since Malbone only runs one block there and is rather narrow -- more like a lane or alley than a full street.
SubDude
Fact is, very few people have even heard of Malbone St.
And I think this is by design. So many people were horrified by the crash that the street was renamed Empire Blvd. A generation or two goes by, and soon the memory of a Malbone St (and the 1918 wreck) fades by the general population ....
--Mark
Fact is, very few people have even heard of Malbone St.
And I think this is by design. So many people were horrified by the crash that the street was renamed Empire Blvd. A generation or two goes by, and soon the memory of a Malbone St (and the 1918 wreck) fades by the general population ....
--Mark
You're right! That's why, even though a memorial plaque should be on the Shuttle for the victims of the Malbone St. wreck, it will never be. It would cause paranoia among the regular (non-railfan) riders and tourists. Isn't it amazing that this is not the case when it comes to the Titanic disaster?!
Hylan Was fired from the BRT as a operator
I'm glad some people in sub-talk have hearts and sympathy. I thought all the postings knocking the poor grandmother who got hit by the train in Bethpage last week was very insensitive. It seemed like everyone thought she deserved it.
The difference between the two incidents, other than the number of deaths is that the Bethpage incident was the result of one woman's stupidity and lack of common sense that led to her own downfall. In the Malbone incident, these same qualities of a person, actually multiple people if you look at all the causes, led to the downfall of 97 others and not themselves. The people who died in the Malbone wreck did nothing to cause it and didn't deserve it. The LIRR grade crossing incident was the opposite.
At least the lady in Bethpage didn't cross a picket line.
Let me tell you it's nothing but pure rail dust over the years...
... but the tracks are still there and so is some of the overhead wiring hardware .....
--Mark
I saw some of the overhead hardware when we rode through Essex St. on Oct. 27th. Didn't see any tracks beneath all the dirt on the floor, but they're still there.
Simon and I were there to-day, it's the same as it ever was, except now it is lit with compact flourescents rather than old bulbs. You can see a bit more what's inside of it, which isn't much. A red mesh is between it and the northbound tracks. Looks like some work materials have been left in there as well.
Wayne
I think there are some good pictures of it in the book Brooklyn Trolleys, they even had a PCC in it on a fan trip.
I think it took place in New York City, and the high school there was near some el...does this particular el still exist?
Nick
Yes, the opening credits for "Welcome Back Kotter" featured (I think) the West End Lines' El structure going past -- here's a guess -- New Utrecht High School??
The show's plot was based on the series' star, comedian Gabe Kaplan, whose high school years were spent at Erasmus Hall on Flatbush Ave. (3 cheers for my ol' alma mater! :-).
SubDude
Yes, the West End line is featured, with R-32s and R-42s in various shots, along with a shot under the el structure along 86th St at the end of the opening titles.
John Travolta mentions the subway in one episode, where he has his own apartment. He refers to a "Flatbush Express" coming through, whereupon a rumble is heard, and the scene cuts to the same R-32 footage used in the titles.
I wonder if anyone ever counted the number of times Barbarino said his mother was a saint.
It was the West End, as it turned off 86th St on to New Utricht Ave, The School shown is New Utricht HS. The show was shot actually in Hollywood Ca, and I attended a few broadcast. Before the show, they had a get togetjher warm up with the cast, with a question and answer period. I once commented to Gabe Kaplan(Who is now currently of all things for a Brooklyn Boy, a DJ on a Country and Western Station in LA)How come the call it the Flatbush Express, when the train is the West End, and doesn t go near Flatbush, why don t they call it the Bensonhurst or Coney Island Exp? He said he will mention it to his writers. He though nobody would notice. Also do you folks remember FAME, they use to mention various High Schools and Subway Lines in the script and got most of them right. Like to a Football Game at Madison. Take the D to Kings Highway and walk 9 short blocks
Thanks, Bob. The info about FAME is interesting considering how often Hollyweird screws up subway locals/routes.
SubDude
As if on cue, as we've returned to the 1989 employment peak the scarcity of commercial space and housing, and the resulting soaring prices in Manhattan, are driving people and businesses out of the city and region. We're going to hit the wall. Then, as now, the City would like private businesses to consider regional commercial centers in the outer boroughs (rather than the suburbs) as an alternative to Manhattan. And the largest such center is Downtown Brooklyn, which is the size of Downtown Seattle and the 14 largest central business district in the U.S.
I have some questions about the area, and nearby Fulton Ferry, back at the peak of prosperity.
What kind of development did you have south of Fulton Street and north of Atlantic, now an area of vacant lots, old small buildings in poor condition, and government offices in dreadful condition?
How far under the adjacent vacant lots does the Schemerhorn Street subway go? I'm told that much of the area was cleared when the subway was built, and the presence of the subway makes commercial redevelopment impossible. What is the problem?
Good point, Larry. I am not an expert on urban planning issues, but I would hazard a guess that the vacant lots and buildings could certainly be rehabilited provided someone finds that there is a viable reason to do so. Alot of Schermerhorn from Jay Street east to Flatbush is predominently parking lot space for downtown workers and shoppers. The buildings are mostly Human Resources Administration or various auxiliary court buildings serving the Judicial system in an overflow capacity.
I do agree that Downtown Brooklyn is a vast untapped resource that could well sustain itself against Manhattan's formidable financial base (I have always said that of all the five boroughs that could theoretically secede and become an independent city, it would be Brooklyn).
South of Fulton and north of Atlantic (at least east of Flatbush Ave.) was/is a mix of apartment houses and smaller, quaint brownstones. However, the northside of Atlantic running through Bed-Stuy, and Prospect Heights is primarily industrial and rather grungy looking. As Atlantic crosses Flatbush it becomes more of an odd mix of Arabic food shops and "old-town" thirft and antique stores. Occasionally, you will also come across one of those trendy "yuppie" coffee bars on the western (Downtown) end of Atantic Ave.
Fulton east of Flatbush goes through Bedford-Stuyvesant where alot of the shops will cater to the neighborhood, so there will be tons of bodegas, Jamacian Beef pattie shops, religious artifact stores and those all-too-common 99 cent shops. On the other side of Flatbush is the Fulton Mall which goes through to Brooklyn Bridge Ave. (formerly Adams Street). Currently it is restricted to Commercial vehicles and buses only, so that pedestrians can make use of the open-air design of the Mall (Philly has a similar setup in it's downtown area). Unfortunately, with the exception of Macy's and one or two other stores, Fulton Mall has too many trashy gold Jewelry stores and cheesy electronics shops to suit my tastes.
[As Atlantic crosses Flatbush it becomes more of an odd mix of Arabic food shops and "old-town" thirft and antique stores. Occasionally, you will also come across one of those trendy "yuppie" coffee bars on the
western (Downtown) end of Atantic Ave.]
And if my geography's not too off, the *old* LIRR tunnel to the waterfront is located under that section of Atlantic Avenue.
It seems as if the city's made no attempts to promote those antiques shops as a tourist attraction. As far as I can tell, most of them seem quite reasonably priced and have a wide selection. Unlike their (far more expensive) counterparts in Manhattan's antiques district, most if not the Atlantic Avenue stores are happy to sell retail, not just to architects and designers. Promoting Atlantic Avenue as a tourist spot would be a nice economic boost for Brooklyn and the rest of the boroughs. It would show Mr. and Mrs. Middle America that yes, there's a lot more to the city than just Manhattan.
Also, in your comparison of Fulton Mall to a similar setup in Phila (I assume Chestnut St), the comparison won't be for long. Phila is almost finished tearing up the Chestnut St Transitway. The first segment of it (east of Broad St) is slated to re-open as a regular traffic street (albeit with a curbside eastbound bus-only lane and no right turns) by Thanksgiving, with the other piece (west of Broad) to be completed in Spring 2000. Market St east of City Hall has a similar arrangement but it's 2-way and right turns are permitted, so the transit lane is only semi-exclusive.
SEPTA is also seriously exploring a downtown historic trolley loop which would put tracks in the bus lane on Chestnut east of 12th St.
Whether this will come to pass, who knows, but it's interesting to see that SEPTA is at least studying the idea.
With the relatively minor exceptions of MetroTech and the Teleport, NYC has never been able to draw employers into the 'outer' boroughs. Firms are now heading to Jersey City which is enjoying another building boom. Accessability from the suburbs appears to be an important factor in relocations. MetroTech is a few subway stops away from the LIRR, and many NJ residents work at the Teleport because of it's relatively easy access to NJ. There just isn't a lot of corporate interest in locations outside of Manhattan. It's the labor pool issue and a lot of other things.
I think people mis-interpreted this thread. I know what IS in Downtown Brooklyn south of Fulton Street. I'm wondering what WAS there back when, before buildings were torn down for the Schemerhorn St subway and a bunch of crummy office buildings were built to hold social service agencies. And, I'm wondering how far under the parking lots the Schemerhorn St subway passes, and how hard it is to build on top of it.
The Brooklyn Library should have some books on the subject. I remember as a child along Fulton Street there were a lot of stores, and some Movie Theaters that went back to Vaudville Days(Pardon the spelling) There weas A & S and other stores. On Flatbush Ave Extension was the Brooklyn Paramount Theater, which at one time was the largest theater in the city outside of Manhatten. Also remember to 1998, New York City only consisted of Manhatten. The other boros were seperate cities and towns in each of the counties. Then came consolidation. Brooklyn at the time was the 3rd largest city in the country, and did not comprise all of the boro as it is now. I stated before a good book is the Neighborhoods of Brooklyn, and it is on sdale and B & N on 5th Ave near 50th St
I don't recall where I came across it, but I heard somewhere that the depth of the foundation of a building has to be in proportion to its height, with one level below ground for every 10 floors above ground. If the subway is a great deal wider than the street, or runs squarely under the lot, it would prevent or, at the very least, complicate the construction of a proper foundation for a tall building.
(One level underground for every 10 above). We're probably only talking about 15-20 story buildings here. Couldn't you just sink more pillars between the tracks? You could stage contruction on the local tracks, because they are not used except to access the transit museum.
A more pressing problem would be the inability to build a parking garage, especially since surface parking would be lost. But presumably you could put one where the subway ain't.
The question then becomes what the pillars are sitting on. You might have room to fit pillars between the tracks but still have to remove the tracks to dig holes for the footings, pour the footings, replace the destroyed part of the roadbed, and re-lay the tracks.
Or, look at it another way. If you recall the NY Central elevated freight line that goes down the Westside from Penn Station to around 14th Street, parts of it used to go right through buildings. What you may be suggesting might require the same sort of arrangement, except several stories under ground. If I were looking for a spot to build a building, I would have to REALLY want just that spot to put up with the extra difficulties I would face from having a subway run through where I had to build my basement.
When they built the World Trade Center, they built it around the PATH tubes while the trains were still in service. I've read of a couple of other examples, but they dealt more with freight roads, rather than transit. It would become an issue of using the same methods to support the subway while they placed footings for the structure above as they used to support the then-existing structures while they built the subway. Again, it can be done, but it takes a long time, and is really expensive.
I understand that Herald Square was the hardest part of the IND to build because they had to support not only the BMT Broadway Line but also reposition the end of the H&M (now PATH) and build a new station for it while weaving the 6th Ave. station in and amongst all this.
As I understand it, they just moved the H&M station a "few" feet South along its previously existing tracks. No great trick. I think the better trick was building the express tracks underneath the H&M from around 9th Street to 32nd St. That seems to me much harder than supporting only a few blocks of BMT.
In any event, they only put it there because they REALLY, REALLY, REALLY wanted it there and not somewhere else.
Those buildings with the New York Central going through them were a special case.
1. I belive few or none of the buildings per-dated the line and
2. Quite a point was made that, though these tracks appear to go through the building structures, they are totally isolated from the structures themselves, to avoid vibration problems.
I believe it does
This was discussed recently. There is no unused station in that spot nor is there a station on Hillside Ave. abd 188th st., as so many seem to believe.
OK, trivia time. Although the 188St Station doesn't exist there IS a station on Hillside Av East of 179 St. For 1 ATTABOY, what station is it??
Ya got me. Unless it's some sort of enterance for TA employees on the tracks east of 179th, I'm totally baffled.
The LIRR station at East Williston on the Oyster Bay Branch.
That's right!!!!
Eugenius D. Train gets the "ATTABOY"
The LIRR station at East Williston on the Oyster Bay Branch. You said station, not SUBWAY station.
Sorry about the typo. Putkin probably exists in Philly or some other city. By the way I sure it exists.
All you transit professionals out there, I was wondering how dangerous an energised 3rd rail is? I mean if you have to work in the yards or tunnels around an energized 3rd how much attention do you have to give to not being zapped? After a while do you just mindlessly step over them or look down and watch your feel clear it? What type a attire will protect you from a 3rd if you happen to make contact, how much protection do those over-rail boards give and how sturdy are they? If you do complete a circut with a 3rd rail will you be killed or will you just get really, really, really hurt? Finally what is safer, top contact or under contact and which one would you like to see used?
The reason for all the questions is that 3rd rails have always freaked me out and for me its always a wonder to see transit professionals paying them no special heed as they work nearby.
Working on or around a live 3rd Rail and you are not paying attention you may not have a second chance in life. Rubber mats afford some protection along with rubber gloves and leather gantlets. If you forget and make a mistake it may be your last. 3rd rail maintainers
do work on live rail all the time disconnecting LIVE cables to do power operations. A good pair of rubber sole shoes, a rubber mat in good condition (no holes), rubber gloves and gantlets and knowing what he or she is doing will get them to see another day. Some workers call that rail a sleeping monster and you don't want to wake it up.
On a ride on the SEPTA Rt 100 the rail car had to stop because kids were crossing the tracks. I watched them walk across the 2 tracks and mindlessly stepping over both 3rd rails. There is no fence along much of the Rt. 100. However the little safety cover is an L shapped metal thing that covers most of the rail. I also have an old pic of the crew of a West Jersey and Seashore MU car posing in front of their train shortly after operations started. The motorman is standing astride a 3rd rail that lacks any cover what so ever. Talk about stupid.
The Norristown (100) line is amazing to me - it's got a 3rd rail, all
right, but the right of way is totally unguarded. No fences near
roads, etc.
And you've gotta laugh at the operation of that thing. It seems that
almost every time I'm riding it, the operator overshoots stations
and has to radio in to back up. (How many times can you do that in
the subway before you no longer have to worry about where to hang
your handles??)
I once saw a kid cross the two express tracks of the BSS at Erie Station. I did not see the whole thing (I looked up, and there he was in the middle of 2 tracks) I think he may have stepped onto the protective covering to get back onto the platform, since the 3rd rails are on the platform side, not in the middle.
By the way, it took place on a Friday afternoon. I would not be surprised if Friday afternoons are the biggest safety hazard of the week, worse even than the middle of the night.
How dangerous? The average main line track, I'm told, is fused at something in the order of 275,000 Amperes. At 600 WVDC that's about 165 million watts. Your average 27" color TV is less than 100 watts. To put it another way, if you doused yourself with water and then touched the 3rd rain and running rail simultaneously, you wouldn't even be a blip on the power control board.
Wow, 275,000 Amp service. I'd love that in my house. I could finally power that death ray I've been building.
To be serious, isn't each 3rd rail section fused seperately?
The term AC comes up a lot in NYC commuter rail: ACMU's, DM30AC, FL-9AC, MP-15AC, P32AC-DM, etc. When I hear AC I normally think of an engine with AC traction motors or some Diesel is normaly straight DC, but in this case is AC/DC. I know the P32's use AC and I am guessing that the new DM30's are AC, but why then are the old NYC 3rd rail DC EMU's called ACMU's? I am also guessing what the MP-15AC's have DC motors and AC current supply, but do those rebuilt FL-9's have AC traction motor's? Any clarifacation would help.
PS: Why do they have all these AC motored locomotives when they are getting 600V DC right from the tap. To me it seems like unnecessary expense and power conversion. I mean for this type of passenger operation DC should be just as good.
/* The term AC comes up a lot in NYC commuter rail: ACMU's, DM30AC, FL-9AC, MP-15AC, P32AC-DM, etc. When I hear AC I normally
think of an engine with AC traction motors or some Diesel is normaly straight DC, but in this case is AC/DC. I know the P32's use AC and I
am guessing that the new DM30's are AC, but why then are the old NYC 3rd rail DC EMU's called ACMU's? I am also guessing what the
MP-15AC's have DC motors and AC current supply, but do those rebuilt FL-9's have AC traction motor's? Any clarifacation would help.
*/
Well, the AC in ACMU stands for "air conditioning".
The MP-15s have AC alternators, a diode rectifier assembly, and DC motors. The DE/DM 30, P-32, and some rebuilt FL-9s also have AC motors.
/*PS: Why do they have all these AC motored locomotives when they are getting 600V DC right from the tap. To me it seems like unnecessary
expense and power conversion. I mean for this type of passenger operation DC should be just as good. */
It's really a better way to go (on paper). Alternators are less maintenance intensive then generators, And AC motors have no brushes, so they can't flash over, and they're more rugged. and more snow/weather resistant. There's little or no efficientcy loss with modern inverters, and there's a side benifit - MUCH better control over the motors. Which means better acceleration, less wheelslip.
As modern electronics get better / cheaper, you're going to see more of a trend towards AC traction. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the R-68s are the last DC traction subway cars ever built for NY. the old DC traction system is a great one - it's proven itself with 100 years of service. But today's AC systems are probbably already a cut above - and the technology is developing much faster too.
HURRAY!!!! SUBTALK IS FINALLY BACK ON LINE!!!!
I thought I was going to have to stay on the porn sites all day!!!
Relax dude, occasionally the internet is fickle.
-Dave
Did Subtalk go down a second time, about noon? I couldn't get in at that time, just like this morning. It must be the rain.
Why is the server so slow? Whether you're on SubTalk or just browsing photos, I've been noticing that the nycsubway.org server has been very sluggish. Its not my ISP, as any other sites I go to move along just fine.
> Why is the server so slow? Whether you're on SubTalk or just
> browsing photos, I've been noticing that the nycsubway.org server
> has been very sluggish.
We've been through this before. Think of it this way:
Big Commercial Site = Lots of Powerful Servers Funded by Advertising and Premium Content.
Little Hobby Site = Little Castoff Server Funded by Donations and My Pocket.
You get what you pay for. If you want to help, perhaps your employer is getting rid of some Sparc 20-class machines. Scoop one up for the site!
-Dave
Or better yet, a VAX. They may be big, they may dim the lights when you reboot, they may not be the fastest.
But *NOTHING* stops a VAX!
Dave, nycsubway.org is not a little hobby site anymore. It has grown into something huge and there's a tremendous amount of traffic on this site. It has become the mainstay for railfans -- not just in NY, but all over the North American continent, and maybe even the world! Also, railfans aren't the only people who are drawn to the site. People researching anything to do with rapid transit, for whatever reason are also drawn here. As for budget limitations, I fully understand that. I'm no Mr. Moneybags myself. Maybe what should be done is to split the site into 2 separate domains on 2 separate servers (nycsubway.org and nycsubway2.org), but have everything linked together. Right now, the server seems to be overtaxed. If it becomes more so, it will soon spend more time down, than up.
He already split the Subtalk and Bustalk sites away. That MUST have sped it up to some degree.
He already split the Subtalk and Bustalk sites away. That MUST have sped it up to some degree.
I'm talking about the entire nycsubway.org site. It is huge. SubTalk and BusTalk are but 2 small corners of the site. People are not only posting on Sub & Bus Talk, there is plenty of traffic everywhere else. There are loads of nice photos to look at, as well as lots of good factual text information.
Maybe move the pics to another server
Maybe move the pics to another server
Yes, some of them, anyway. David is always adding something new to the site. I'm all for it. He should NEVER stop doing that, but the larger this site becomes, and the more traffic, the slower things are going to get until the ULTIMATE crash! This site is the most extensive site on rapid transit in the world. That is something that David should be proud of. Keep expanding it, but also do something to alleviate the "traffic jams".
Please stop adding that large gif to your posts. It makes it even slower trying to read messages (and the people on slow connections will also be pissed)
-Hank
That large gif, as you call it is less than 5 KB. It would take only 4 seconds to download at 14.4 KBaud/sec. What do you do when viewing photos on this site that are 100KB? If David tells me its a problem, I'll quit using it.
Due to the complaint about a 5KB gif that I was using in my posts, I've decided to reduce the size of my BMT LINES gif to half. It is now 2.13 KB
Don't you know, people are gonna complain no matter what one does!!!
Soap Box Mode On
We had this "problem" when everyone "learned" how to post the line logos.
IMHO, this is a message board, when I'm reading it from home over crappy 60 yrold wireing in the building anything but text slows the page gen. From Logos, to flashing RR crossing signs. I keep quite so as not to start a flame but it does get annoying at times at home.
Soap Box Mode Off
(Now work it's at T3....)
Come on guys, quit the bickering crap. We're all in this together and Dave is doing a hell of a job for this website. The traffic is heavy because there are so many enthusiasts on board. I'm sure adjustments can and will be made down the road. By the way, I was so busy yesterday that I never got a chance to get on line. It turned out I didn't miss much. For once my timing was good.
Doors closing---Next stop 62nd Street and New Utrecht Avenue, transfer to the Sea Beach line.
Also, you only have to download the gif ONCE. Then it stays in your cache.
Also, you only have to download the gif ONCE. Then it stays in your cache.
That's right. If anyone has a problem downloading a 5K gif, a computer upgrade is long overdue. Time to get rid of that old 386. It's probably not Y2K compliant, anyway.
I don't even have a computer, I have WebTV and I get your BMT Lines gif instantly. I say keep it.
Does WebTV store images and pages for quick loading?
I know I'll be lynched for proposing this, but if funding is a problem, and traffic on the site is high, simple ad banners could provide the neccessary funding for maintenance and expansion.
I know I'll be lynched for proposing this, but if funding is a problem, and traffic on the site is high, simple ad banners could provide the neccessary funding for maintenance and expansion
I totally agree, but Dave is very adamant about not having advertising on his site.
Also, BBs historically have extremely low clickthrough rates, since users come to them for the content and tend to ignore banners. Hence, agencies and experienced banner purchasers shy away from placing banners on BBs unless they can pay based on clickthrough -- which would yield a lot less $$$.
Whats a BB?
Whats a BB?
SubTalk is a BB (bulletin board)
What about the main site? BTW, I don't care for pop-ups, ad frames, watermarks and the like. Basically the crap you would find on the free web servers with efficient upload tools (that disqualifies Crosswinds).
What about the main site? BTW, I don't care for pop-ups, ad frames, watermarks and the like. Basically the crap you would find on the free web servers with efficient upload tools (that disqualifies Crosswinds).
I think what was meant by ad banners was just a simple animated ad banner toward the top of the page, not a whole bunch of razzle-dazzle like Joe the Con Man's Friendly Used Car Lot. Lord knows we have too much of that crap on the Web already. Just simple banner ads, kind of what you would see on a site that participates in the Link Exchange. Also, I agree that it would be a waste on SubTalk -- just around the main site. One banner ad per page. With all the traffic on this site, many businesses would be willing to pay good money for a banner ad on this site. BTW, nothing pisses me off more than graphic ads constantly changing and loading on a site. That would probably chase me away forever.
I'm glad you have such grandiose plans for the site, -- when you've arranged for some donors let me know.
This isn't a little Geocities personal home web page. If you think it is as simple as opening another account at a free web space provider you're not seeing the whole picture. (You also don't really understand how the domain name service works but that's left for the webmasters and sys admins who need to know.) It takes several gig of storage and transfers anywhere from 30-50 gig a month. Commercial web site providers charge $1000 and up a month for this sort of service. Pennies for a corporation but not for what I still maintain is a hobbyist web site.
There are three ways to fund a web site.
A) Donations - nice in theory but few and far between in reality. You yourself would like to see a faster site but admit you can't afford a donation.
B) Commercial Advertising - there's none on this site and won't ever be.
C) Premium Content - there's none on this site and won't ever be. If all of a sudden you had to pay to post on SubTalk, how many people would leave it behind for some other site with free discussion groups (like Yahoo, which is funded via "B"). No offense to all the good people of SubTalk but I doubt I'd have many paying customers. Certainly not enough to afford a couple of thousand dollars of system upgrades.
So, we're back to "A". The discussion of this web site's finances really isn't appropriate unless you have some means to improve the situation. What you'd like to see or think we should have is irrelevant without the funding.
-Dave
Some people try...
-Hank :)
I was forced to converse with my wife. She knows very little about trains.
To save your time:
CIvil Service Book Store does NOT have these. Theyw ere supposed to get them in a week ago and still no books.
Barnes and noble.com was special order for the one and out of print for the combination wirth tower and train operator.
Amazon.com weas no better.
Borders.com came through-- in stock yet and a cheaper price!
(search for the test title to find any civil service exam book)
Larry, please contact me for an important message via my e-mail address.
Thanks.
SubDude
Yo Dude, if you can't say it publicly amongst a bunch of subway fans, I'm not sure I want to hear it, especially from someone I don't know.
Larry, if you were paying attention -- reading posts from earlier in the week -- you would have realized that it was Doug aka BMTman (Doug Diamond) whom you had met at the Willy B. closure excursion.
Just wanted to know if you were interested in the doing the Bay Ridge Walking Tour in a couple of weeks?
Feel free to contact me at my e-mail address for more info.
SudDude (Doug)
SubDude: My apologies; I think I got something confused here because I thought that Doug said he was changing his name to Subdude. However, I usually go on sub talk late at night when my brain has already gone to sleep. I'd like to go on that walk but my work schedule won't permit it.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks.
No problem. This trip is something that could feasibly be done again either in the Spring or this time next year.
SubDude
Larry and Doug: Please disregard my previous post.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I know this is a dumb question but what is that fog or haze in subway stations and tunnels?
When do you see it? It may be dust from the tunnels themselves, or it could be mist, or smoke even. Be more specific.
I might suggest that if one of the diesel work trains has just been through the area, that the diesel exhaust would still be wafting around for some subsequent time.
No it's not from one of the work trains, I think it's just dust from the tunnels. I always wondered why the tunnel smell was so strong at 59th street IRT lower level for the 4 and 5 trains, as well as the tunnel fog.
I do like the smell there though. Also nice waiting on the N/R at 59th and Lex while an westbound is coming in from the tubes, a nice strong breeze of tunnel air!
I think it's tunnel dust, because when I come back from railfanning all day on the subways I wipe my nose and this dust appears of the tissue. I gotta admit though I'm hooked on tunnel dust! LOL!
John writes:
>I think it's tunnel dust, because when I come back from railfanning
>all day on the subways I wipe my nose and this dust appears of the
>issue. I gotta admit though I'm hooked on tunnel dust! LOL!
Hmm... Just what color was this "dust" that you found in your Kleenex after blowing your nose? white powder? makes me wonder...
On a more serious note, I noticed the smell inside the tunnels as well, and it seems to be similar to that in many other subway systems. I'm wondering if there's some sort of carbon plates/brushes used with the 3rd rail or 3rd rail shoe/assembly. I'm thinking that maybe it's dust from the carbon brushes as the trains move along the rail. I'm probably wrong because I still am not real sure on the design of the 3rd rail.
The color of the dust on that tissue was grey, not white. This smell is in Penn station on that platforms, although there's no "tunnel dust" there.
It seems to be present around electric trains and in tunnels, you could be right about the 3rd rail brushes and carbon, but that may explain the smell but the dust?
It's probably just that the tunnels in the NYC subway system are old and there's a lot of dust, perhaps it's from construction, or the tunnels and structures wearing off particles into the air.
There's something about that particular spot on the IRT/Lex express level that is unique though to other parts of the subway system because it is so strong.
I see it in all the subway stations (except elevated), especially within Manhattan. It's usually the thickest in the IRT Lexington line lower level, north of 42nd street, especially in the 59th street lower level. Also a strong "tunnel" smell there as well.
Does anyone remember the fog that used to permeate IND stations when the R-1/9's ran? There was also a certain smell that came along with the fog.
If the line is close to the surface like the IRT 1/2/3 at 79th street sunlight enters the area over the express tracks and illuminates the dust in the air (like a beam of light from a flashlight will let you see dust)
The thickest "tunnel fog" is usually in the deeper stations, and is illuminated by the flourescent subway station lights.
When I took the 7X to Manhattan Monday morning, at about 9:30am, I noticed a long back up of Flushing bound trains almost to Woodside.
What happened to cause such long delays? There must've been at least 10 trains waiting, some at stations with doors open, others in between stations, waiting for signals to clear.
There was a train at Vernon-Jackson with problems.
11/02/99
I remember back in the 60's that Air raid sirens were mounted on street light poles. They used to go off at 12 noon. I don't recall if there were air raid drills because of the Cuban missle crisis and impending "Cold War".
I DO remember that some subway elevated stations had them mounted on the roofs. Are they still around or are they all gone? If gone when were they fazed out and removed.
Bill Newkirk
They are still out in Nassau and Suffolk for volunteer firemen and they are quite loud!!! Many still go off at 12 noon. Most are on firehouse roofs but there are still many pole mounted ones. Theres one very loud one at the Glen Head RR Station at the crossing. Another one is at the entrance to the Meadowbrook from Glen Cove Road by Jericho Tnpk.
Firehouses used to also have very loud air-horns but most have been discontinued. I think they were donated to the LIRR for their bi-level locomotives!!
>>>>Firehouses used to also have very loud air-horns but most have been discontinued. I think they were donated to the LIRR for their bi-level
locomotives!! <<<''
There is an ear splitting one in Port Washington, where I work It's loud because it has to call volunteer firemen for miles around.
"There is an ear splitting one in Port Washington, where I work. It's loud because it has to call volunteer firemen for miles around."
Volunteer firefighters in the suburbs of the largest city in the country? And not even a particularly distant suburb at that! I can't think of any volunteer fire departments in metropolitan Chicago, although there are some, in poorer suburbs, that are so underfunded that they might FEEL like volunteer firefighters. (^:
For some of us kids of the late 40's and 50's, there is an interesting site conelrad.com that focuses in on the whole civil defense system of the 50's. You were supposed to turn to 630 or 1230 on the AM dial to receive instructions when you heard air raid sirens. If you have memories of the paranoia of the 50's, check out that site. I don't mean to start a whole thing here.
Volunteer FD's are the norm on Long Island. Also, I believe that the area around the Broad Channel station on the A (just to keep our topic ever-so-tangentially involved) is served by a volunteer FD rather than FDNY.
Chuck
The Broad Channel VFD is not officially recognized by the FDNY.
-HAnk
Staten Island has _2_ VFDs, and they're the only ones in the city that are dispatched by FDNY, and have similar authority to an FDNY Engine company.
-Hank
In Smithtown, they still have the "12:00 whistle" as the horn is known, blowing from a pole next to the the firehouse. It too is used to summon volunteer firemen. Years ago there used to be a train that departed Smithtown for Port Jeff around noon. There were a couple of close calls because the loud whistle drowned out (or was so alleged) the horn on the train as it crossed Landing Avenue just east of the station.
Not many volunteer fire departments that I know of in Chicagoland, but we do have a large number of civil defense sirens, particularly in the suburbs. There are two reasons for this:
1) Being in the Midwest, we're often prone to severe storms and tornadoes during the summer. The sirens sound when a tornado warning is issued, as a signal for people to head to their basements.
2) Chicago has a number of nuclear power plants in the outer suburbs which provide power to the city and give ComEd a handy excuse to extort us on our electric bills. The sirens are to sound in the event of a nuclear accident, as a signal for people to evacuate a 10-mile radius of the plant.
If we're lucky, ComEd won't have a nuclear accident during a severe thunderstorm. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Oh, goodness, don't start me up on Fire Horns! I lived in Elmont as a child, we had a single horn about 1 1/2 miles away (on the central alarm bureau building on School Road).
The winners in that category belong to:
Garden City Park F.D.'s Denton Avenue firehouse, north of Hillside. This has GOT TO BE the WORST sounding fire horn EVER. For years it made a croaking sound; in early 1987 they changed its reed and made it sound like a dying cow.
Floral Park's gallery of three air horns and a gas ship's horn, each one different and extremely loud. The one near Bellerose station (Atlantic & Larch) had a dying goose sound and was a mere 25 feet from a newly-built high ranch.
Franklin Square had a terrible-sounding horn on its Sobo Avenue fire house, it was less than thirty feet from somebody's house. They added a 'tweeter' to it in the 70's and it rotated as it sounded.
Valley Stream had four air horns, each one more irritating than the next.
New Hyde Park's blood-curdling South 5th Street horn had to be one of the eeriest sounds I have ever heard. This thing went off 24/7.
Where I now live, Babylon Village still sounds its Ship's Horn when there is a fire or emergency. It's loud, but not irritating. After all, it IS a ship's horn.
Wayne
How about Uniondale? The horn went off simultaneous with the sirens and was very loud. And I heard that it usually went off on Sundays, not for fires, but to get the guys together with their wives thinking it was a fire. BTW, I'm not too proud to admit I've taken many a detour to avoid being too close to them.
If one had to be picked as the best (which isn't saying much 'cause I hated all) it had to be Hicksville. An awful lot of very short blasts. And now that most L.I. villages are getting rid of the fire horns, along comes the bi-level locomotives!!!
Hicksville's fire horn (actually, two air horns set at different pitches pointing in opposite directions) is pretty ugly-sounding. I heard it on several occasions from the golf course at Cantiague Park.
I don't recall hearing Uniondale's (but I remember seeing it - a cluster of short air horns, with flared bells, like the older LIRR locomotives). What I DO remember is Hempstead's, up until, say, about 1972. They had air horns located all over town. One was on the old firehouse in Fulton Street at Cooper. Another was at the training field on Milburn at Weir Street. Another was in the bell tower of the old wooden firehouse on Linden Avenue (a TERRIBLE sound) and the worst-sounding one of all was set on a pole at a pumping station on Yale Street east of Clinton Road. They changed its location by mounting it on the nearby water tower, but didn't change its sound. Once back in the 60's we were on our way home from Roosevelt Field and were stopped at the light at Clinton and Yale when this thing went off not 100 yards away. I nearly jumped out of my skin! Hempstead did away with the last of the big air horns (Weir Street) by 1978. They had a little tweeter on a fire house near the old bus terminal, less than a foot long.
Wayne
In Baltimore, the AIR RAID SIRENS !!! all sound at exactly 1:00 PM every Monday. As a test. When I was a teenager (TOO long ago) we all used to say that the Ruskies would bomb Baltimore at 1:00 because nobody would pay any attention to them. During the Cuban Missle Crisis we were all convinced that the Ruskies were going to start WWIII and we were all going to die.
Remember "Duck and Cover"? We practiced it in Elementary School. (Duck & Cover under your desk.)
The Teen Age spin was "Put your head between your legs and kiss your a** goodbye."
11/07/99
I remember those "duck and covers" at PS-152 in Brooklyn. As soon as the sirens sounded , we were all under our desks but really understood why. This was about the time those FALLOUT SHELTER signs appeared above entrances to apartment house basements. Never understood what "fallout" was.
Bill Newkirk
Yes we did "duck-and-cover" drills in elementary school, up until about fourth grade. We also had drills where we covered up our heads in the basement hall (lot of good THAT would have done! - the building would have fallen right on us) and we also had "convoy drills" where we would line up in the yard grouped by the geographic location of our homes. Not too sure what that was all about, some kind of disaster preparation, no doubt.
Baltimore still has the yellow square trumpet air raid sirens, which rotate as they sound, correct? These can be set for two sounds. One is a steady note, the other is a warbling note, like that of a European police siren, but not as shrill (sounds notes F-sharp and A). Deer Park here on Long Island also has one of these (in addition to Mineola and Copiague), sounding a steady note. Mineola warbles, Copaigue has two - one that warbles, one that has a steady note.
Wayne
If Air Raid Drills bring back memories from the 50's, check out a site I read about in the Thursday Times about a month ago. conelrad.com It focuses on all this stuff--- duck and cover-- tv shows that related to the paranoia--- the Conelrad emergency broadcast system. It's really an interesting and well executed site.
I don't know if any of you have ever heard Robert Klein's routine on Civil Defense. It goes back probably to the 60's or 70's. I have it on a record album. He recalls that we were given dog tags, and told not too subtly (spelling?) that these were to be used in the event of a nuclear holocaust to identify us in case we were burnt beyond recognition. I remember wearing one of those dog
tags around my neck as a kid.
There were also a couple of movies made using clips from the civil defense films from the 50's which also captured those days.
Maybe its a type of phobia but I usually try to avoid spots where I know there is one. One that looks really loud is the one at the c/o Lakeville Rd & Jericho Tnpk. I never heard it but its a bunch of air horns mounted atop a pole. I just looks like a spot you wouldn't want to be next to when it went off!!
One that really scared me once was the one on Gardiners Av just S/O Hemp Tnpk at the firehouse.
By the way, to keep it transit related, there is a weird looking contraction on a pole at the RR crossing at the Glen Head Station. Is that a fire horn or siren? My dentist is in the office bldg opposite the station but I've never heard any horn or siren there, however I will never be there at 12 noon!!!
What you saw in New Hyde Park is a SIREN, not a horn. There are three of them in New Hyde Park: the one you mentioned, one near the high school (Leonard Boulevard at Evergreen) and one on Hillside Avenue at Kalda Avenue (just east of the Hillside Plaza shopping center). These sirens have twelve "horns" which act as loudspeakers. They come in six-horn and eight-horn varieties. These things are LOUD - well over 100DB at 100 feet.
I believe the thing you saw in Glen Head is a type of siren as well.
Floral Park's Main fire house is one short block from the LIRR station. I was startled on numerous occasions by the fire horn there.
Up until 1972, it was a cluster of small trumpets, sounding a dissonant baritone note. Then they installed a Ship's Horn in May of that year. This gave way in 1978 to a hideous sounding tapered-cone air horn, painted blood red and packing a 107db wallop. They finally discontinued its use sometime in the early 1990's, replacing it with a siren. FP has since stopped all use of its fire horns.
Wayne
While we're at it maybe you know, you seem to be an expert on the subject. A block south of the Main Street RR crossing in Mineola (the crossing with the tower) opposite the Davenport Press Restaurant there seems to be a siren on a pole, however I never heard a siren over there and I always use Mineola Station. I've even taken railfan videos with my 3 yr old son at that crossing. Do you know, is that a discontinued siren??
By the way, as an aside, I've lived in East Meadow for most of my 46 years and thought I knew all the fire horn and siren sounds in the surrounding areas. One day from my house I heard a siren blare for about 5 minutes that I didn't recognize the sound. I thought maybe they changed the siren of a nearby E.M. firehouse. The next day I read in the paper there was a jailbreak at the Nassau Co. Jail in East Meadow. Although I never found out for sure, I assume it was a siren at the jail used only for jail emergencies. I never heard it again.
Ah, yes, MINEOLA - they have one of the most unusual-sounding sirens I've ever heard. First, a square-trumpet rotating air raid siren begins sounding a warbling note. Then a double-barreled air horn goes off every seven seconds or so. Then a chorus of hatbox-shaped sirens (located at various places around the town) go off as well. The one you mention used to be a little can-shaped yellow siren with a round top. Then they changed it to one of the hatbox ones. I would think it goes off whenever there's a fire or when the other ones sound off.
There were five other hatbox sirens at various points around town. Rockville Centre had a number of these as well, as did Bellerose Terrace and Floral Park also had one.
The NC Jail siren is also a square-trumpet rotating siren. Look up on the roof of the main building and you will see it.
Wayne
Just this morning I was waiting for the 6:42 at Medford station when the horn went off at the nearby fire house. "Loud" is not the word for it - the sound is enough to raise the dead!
[One day from my house I heard a siren blare for about 5 minutes that I didn't recognize the sound. I thought maybe they changed the siren of a nearby E.M. firehouse. The next day I read in the paper there was a jailbreak at the Nassau Co. Jail in East Meadow. Although I never found out for sure, I assume it was a siren at the jail used only for jail emergencies.]
The prison in Cheshire, Connecticut issued special beepers to people living within a couple miles of the facility in order to warn them of any breakouts. Doing so was a way of overcoming neighborhood opposition to an expansion plan.
We still have a very loud air horn here in Sea Cliff, it actually sounds like a loud fog horn. It's quite a spooky sound if you've heard it.
Glen Cove also has two types of air horns, one a low moan, the other a more modern sounding and even louder.
I remember the air raid drills in public school in the 60's. They used 5 bells for an air raid drill, as opposed to the standard 3 bells for fire drills. At the sound of 5 bells, we would all crawl under our desks until the drill was over.
>>>>I remember back in the 60's that Air raid sirens were mounted on street light poles. They used to go off at 12 noon. I don't recall if there
were air raid drills because of the Cuban missle crisis and impending "Cold War".
I DO remember that some subway elevated stations had them mounted on the roofs. Are they still around or are they all gone? If gone
when were they fazed out and removed. <<<
This sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
If anyone runs across an extant air raid siren on a lamppost, let me know!
As I posted earlier, there's on at Sutter on the "L". I think I saw one up in the Bronx too, but I forgot where.
Washington DC and suburbs, up until the mid-1980s, used to have absolutely hideous-looking and sounding air-raid sirens. These looked like square trumpets, painted yellow, and rotated as they sounded. There was one on Edmunds School roof, 9th & "D" N.E, a block and a half from Grandmother's house. One night at 10:30 it went off and scared the living daylights out of me. COPIAGUE and MINEOLA still have these trumpet-style sirens. EAST FARMINGDALE used to have them, and they were discontinued around 1990.
Wayne
San Francisco still blows its Civil Defense sirens every Tuesday at 12:Noon from telephone-pole top, multiple megaphones around the City. Many of them are on public school property, some are located along indvidual utility poles along streets (this would include one painted a stealthy black at the NE corner of Geary and Powell in Union Square) (most of the horns are painted yellow) and some are located on private and public buildings. Because of the constant threat of earthquakes, the City plans to keep this system running forerver and also plans to keep its fire alarm box system up and running into the next millenium. After the 1989 Earthquake, the Fire Alarm Box and Police Call box system unlike the Pac Bell Telephone system worked without any serious problems.
Technically, the 'cold war' was never impending, it was a constant. Remembering my history lessons, it was basically all about how each side kept building bigger missles, threatening each other with them. It 'started' shortly after the end of WWII (with the Berlin Airlift being recognized as the 'initial point', the Cuban Missile Crisis as it's Apex (or defining point, if you will) and the fall of the Berlin Wall the end.
-Hank
How well I remember these! In my area (upper east side Man.)they were grey approx 2-3feet tall most mounted on lamposts. Each day at noon they would sound for approx 10 seconds it also seemed that they were rotated-different ones sounding each day. I last recall hearing them in late 1972.
Equally spooky my elemetary school was equipped with a telco bell in the main office each morning around 9 it would ring. Asingle long ring was a test a series of 3 short rings meant trouble you were supposed to turn on the central P.A. system`s radio on and await instructions.
This went on into the early 70`s and i still recall everybody stopping work for a moment and waiting for it to stop.
AS for the sirens they were removed when all the street lamps were replaced in spring 1973, at least around here
However a monthago I noticed an identical siren on an N train station in Astoria possibly Broadway look on the southbound side it`s on the roof.
Boy, what memories!
Anybody know where I can get one of those classic yellow "Fallout Shelter" signs. They still adorn hundreds of apartment buildings!
11/03/99
"Anybody know where I can get one of those classic yellow "Fallout Shelter" sign? They still adorn hundreds of apartment buildings1"
Other than conning the building Super to part with it,you may try a city flea market. There's a bunch in the area of 6th Ave and 24th St.(Manhattan). MY friend picked one up a few years ago,I saw one a few months back.They operate on weekends,Sunday the better day.
Bill Newkirk
There is a two-tier 36" siren with a thin base still on the roof of the Sutter Avenue station (northbound platform shed) on the "L" line.
I guess they forgot it was there.
They had several kinds of sirens, mounted on lamp-posts or telephone poles:
1) Two-tier 48" siren with fat base (i.e. Madison Ave & E.89th (mounted on a Bishop's Crook with a cuplight), 1st Avenue & E.47th, Ocean Ave & Dorchester Road, Linden Blvd & Pine St.)
These were the loudest, my guess at least 100db, maybe more.
2) Two-tier 36" siren with thin base (i.e. Wall & Nassau Street, Ocean Ave & Avenue "N"). These were loud too, but less so than 1), probably around 90db.
3) Three-tier 30" siren (most often found on Staten Island). These were about 90-95db.
There were also mushroom-top sirens with a tube through the top, like they used to have on the Claremont Parkway 3rd Avenue El station.
On top of some schools, there were center rotating drum sirens with a horn speaker on either side.
Wayne
ah relics of the cold war. I was just looking at an old certifciate of mine testiying that I have sucessfully completed a US civil defense course as an air raid shelter technician. After our survey, our data was analyzed and if the building was deemed suitable a capacity was calculated and a black and yellow air raid shelter sign was placed on the building. In a recent thread on subtalk someone was looking to buy one of those old signs.
I know the idea of extending the 7 not only to Javits but then under the Hudson to NJ has been mentioned in various blue-sky proposals. The RPA may also have suggested it. A few Qs:
(1) What terminal? I'd assume Meadowlands, which could serve as a gigantic park-and-ride.
(2) Could it also stop at the Secaucus Transfer? NJ Transit is talking about a route from the old West Shore Line through the Meadowlands Sports Complex to the Secaucus Transfer ... perhaps the 7 could use that (yet to be created) ROW?
(3) How much of a rise is there between a tunnel under the Hudson and land-level in the Meadowlands? Enough to require a massive tunnel thru NJ land as well as under the river? (And I bet it's solid rock too, those cliffs wouldn't be there otherwise .... )
Thoughts from our resident visionaries?
It will never happen. I doubt it will ever get to the Javits Center. Forget about New Jersey.
I have to think this was covered on SubTalk before I got here, but can anyone explain WHY ON EARTH the two types of MetroCard -- dollar-value and time-limited -- are identical in design?
If I have them both in my wallet, there's no way I'm aware of to tell them apart. Does this seem as dumb to anyone else as it does to me?
Swipe it throught one of the Metro Card readers at the station and it will either give you a dollar amount or an expiration date. That is the only way to tell them apart visually.
I know: That's my point. It seems a particularly dumb way to do it. Why not make them visually distinct? Is there any reason NOT to?
Perhaps so we will end up taking the wrong card and have to pay an additional fare. That happened to me a few weeks ago on the bus. I had a 7 day card and in the morning of the 7th day, I grabbed the wrong card. I ended up taking a cash value card with zero. I had two other cards in my wallet, also with zero.
The bus driver let me on anyway becuase she knew I was going to the subway (This was the Q-74 which terminates at the Union Turnpike Station), but there I bought another Metro Card. So do to my own carlessness, I lost the last days usage of my 7 day card and had to pay again. This has to be part of their motivation behind the cards being identical.
I imagined that one reason they were the same was to discourage thieves for looking out for someone using a specially marked monthly pass and ripping the person off because it was worth more. With them all looking alike, you couldn't tell the real valuable ones from a card that is worth only a couple of rides.
I guess also in terms of dispensing them, having just 1 type makes bookkeeping simpler, or in the case of the Metrocard Vending Machines, having 1 card makes the mechanism easier.
These are both off the top of my head reasons.
The second one is correct. Also remember that the machine inside the booth is an MVM too. It's a machine that vends Metrocards. The cards are all empty inside. They are encoded on exit. Now what is stupid, is that the TA doesn't let you refill unlimited ride cards and keep pay-per-ride value on them. An MRM will let you do this, perhaps it will only be allowed then to get people to actually use those machines.
It's also cheeper. Only one kind of card to make. Of course, the adverts and specials kinda make it moot. On the other hand, You don't want the clerk to screw up and give you the wrong card. 2 ways to handle this; one, when you get the card, mark one of them (I used to put a 'U' on the back of my unlimited when I carried a pay card as well), or modify the dispensing equipment to print 'x-day unlimited' on the card. Of course, that's just one more thing that can break, and cause further problems. Bottom line? Be smart, and know which of your cards is which at all times.
-Hank
Clerks (station attendants?) and MVMs carry one type of card stock, which can be encoded as either value-based or time-based metrocards. Making them visually distinct would require using two different sets of stock, which they apparently wanted to avoid.
It is possible that, in the future, cards will be able to carry both time-based unlimited rides and additional value simultaneously. The reduced-fare metrocards already do this; if it is possible for one type of card, it should be possible for all types.
I was recently in New York and bought a 7-day metrocard. During the course of the first day I was reading the back and saw that it expired October 31, 2000. Since it was written 10/31/00 and I was in NY in October, I figured that was the date seven days later. Then I started to count. (I arrived on October 21.) Then I saw the year "00". Of course it was slightly smudged so I thought it could be "99". Anyway, my question is, why is that date, a year from now, printed on the card when the real expiry date is not? Being new at this, I didn't know at first that there were other machines which could read the card and give me that information.
You have ONE YEAR (approximately) to use a MetroCard. The date on the back is the "finish using this card by" date.AN unlimited card starts with the first swipe. Lets say the back say expires 10/31/00. You can start using it anyday until 10/24/2000 and it weill be good until 10/31/00. While we cannot trade or refill unlmited cards, expired regular cards can be traded in for a new card at the booth (or machines) up to one year after the expiration date- in this case 10/30/2001 after which any value/time left is lost forever.
So does that mean that one can tell the difference by looking at the back for an expiry date?
In one word--- no! the date is on all cards when we get them in the booth. Blank (Zero Value) cards come in packages of 100 cards and they all have a serial number, a batch number, and an expiration date.
The information on the back is not done by us. When a customer asks us for a card we enter the information on our computer keyboard/ When then insert a BLANK card into the computer. The card is pulled into the computer and pops back up ready to be given to the customer--either money(regular pay-per-ride) or Unlimited (7 or 30 day)
To add just a bit of detail ... the cards come from the mfg. useless in the system. A TA office needs to initialize them, then a Station Agent (or a MVM machine) can either put value or time on them. This same TA office also makes up cards with value or time, e.g. I buy them that way for re-sale from my bus company (I do the buying but not the selling).
Mr t__:^)
They are identical because it simplifies life in the booth. ALso- at some point **in the future** a card *might* have both time and money (like reduced fare MetroCards do now). Why dont you take a pen and mark an unlmited card with a big U and the regular with a $.
Every person working in the booth must count the MetroCards-- we already have to count and store prewrapped cards plus blank cards. having one kind of blank cards reduces errors.
Another tip for easier MC use: I put a post-it with remaining value on the MC. For unlimited I put it in a different MC Holder. I also bought a MC/Token holder AND I keep a MC with one ride just in case I have a problem.
The fact that folks have to get this involved in the mechanics of MC use STINKS, blame it on the MTA suits, who don't use the system, but decide what is best for us.
Mr t__:^)
Once again, I think the one card fits all system was deffered due to complexity, and perhaps they might want people to have a reason to use the new MRM.
Subway Buff is right on!
I carry a small felt pen with me to mark the MetroCard, as she suggests.
For those interested:
the brand is "Sanford",
the pen type is "Sharpie",
it is only slightly bigger than a standard Bic,
the ink is **permanent** on the plastic, just like a large MagicMarker(tm).
They say it is non-toxic, too. What a relief! LOL.
Works for me.
11/05/99
You can use a ball point pen to write on the strip where the expiration date appears on the left. Just use the empty space on the right.
Bill Newkirk
In one of David's posts, he said that the maintenance of the site comes out of his pocket. I don't understand much of the hardware and software involved in running this site or any site. The issue of people making donations was raised. It was stated that it would cost thousands to upgrade the hardware running the site. But I'm curious about what it costs to maintain the site as is. I'd be willing to contribute a modest amount regularly to help defray the expenses of running the site. I don't think it's fair that one person has to eat all the expenses, especially if it runs into a lot of money. ( Besides, it's only fair when I consider the money I'm saving being here and not having to be in psychotherapy ).
Secondly, in the past I think I remember Dave saying that sometimes the site just goes down for no disceernable reason. Do you know what caused the disruption today? I don't remember posting anything particularly stupid earlier that might have caused a dysfunction.
> How is SubTalk Maintained & Financed
If you're in a position to do something about this, please contact me offline. I don't feel it needs to be public knowledge any more than I've already stated in prior messages. If you can't assist, quite frankly, it's none of your business.
> and why was it down?
The server running SubTalk is connected to the internet with a Bell Atlantic ADSL connection. The mere fact that the ISP being used is the phone company should explain that outages happen and they aren't quick about fixing them. Residential ADSL is a "de-regulated" service and the phone company does not need to provide a Service Level Agreement. If it goes out, they don't need to provide a reason or a time frame for it to be fixed. I'd estimate there is an ADSL outage of more than an hour approximately once a month. These usually happen during the night but occasionally during the daytime. That being said, *all* ISP's suffer occasional connectivity failures. The main server (www.nycsubway.org), while a lot slower, is on a much more reliable connection located at an ISP that I have a "deal" with (deeply discounted colocation service in return for money and system adminstration assistance).
I had a weird dream last night. It all started with me entering my old home station, Utica Ave IRT. As I was descending down the stairs, two #2 trains were leaving AT THE SAME TIME!!!!! After I looked in the tunnel I saw lights turn around the bend. I ran all the way to the front so that I can get the railfan window. I thought that it was a #3 train but it wasnt. It wasnt even R62a, R29, R62, or a R33 or a R36. It was a SLANT R40!!!!!! There was no end sign. It was actually bypassing the station when it all of a sudden the train came to a complete halt. It seemed that there was some mechanincal problem and the passengers had to come off. After the slant R40 left, a R62 #4 train came in. The passengers got on and the train proceeded to Kingston Av. As we got into Kingston, the station was brand new. I mean brand new tile and everything!!!! It also had designs on the wall. The station looked real nice. Then I woke up. These are actual accounts in my dream. Anybody had anything similar to what I experince?????
3TM
50St. Transfer to the M27 and M50 on the street level. The next station will be 42St-UN. Transfer to the S,4,5,6,7 trains via passageway. The M42 and M104 on the street level. 42St will be next. Stand Clear of the closing doors............
Two of the same trains leaving at the same time is no fantasy or dream. Last night I was on an E that ran express down the local track from Queens Plaza to Jamaica. At Roosevelt Ave., we were on the local and another E was on the express track. Both trains left at the same time!
I know I seen it before... When I was in high school, the 4 from NL would come in at Utica, meanwhile the 4 originating at Utica was late because of passengers at the Utica Ave end trying to board the train. The dispatcher would say "Lock it up, Lock it up". Meanwhile the 4 on the local track opened and closed it doors. The next thing I know we were leaving at the same time. I could imagine the look of the faces at Kingston and Nostrand...........
3TM
23St. Transfer to X, 23St Crosstown-Myrtle Ave El. The M23 up on the street level. The next station will be 14St. Transfer to the L and the M14 upper level. Stand Clear...............
The same thing happened with the A to Far Rockaway and the A to Lefferts Blvd. And it wasn't a dream either.
At 42nd Street, I boarded the A (R44) (on the local track) to Lefferts Blvd. The next thing I notice, a Far Rockaway A (R38) arrives on the express track.
The conductor in our train yell out "This is a A express to Lefferts Blvd - A Express, A Express, A Express Please Stand Clear The Closing Doors.
And, as the Lefferts Blvd tried to leave the Far Rockaway A, the A to Far Rockaway was desperately trying to close it doors so it won't be left behind.
We left at the same time.
Both of us arrived at the 34th Street Station at the same time.
Then, the Lefferts Blvd A announce that it was going to make express stops. I was amazed since the A on the express track was going to pass stations too. So I prepare to watch this fantastic race.
After hearing the announcement, we finally left the station. We end up leaving the station slightly before the Far Rockaway - but I could see it (Far Rockaway) beside us.
As we were heading towards 23rd Street, I can tell the motorman was in for the race because the train seem to be speeding rapidly. But, we were no match for a R38.
Then we got to 23rd Street. For some reason the train slowed down slightly to warn C/E passengers to step back. I could see the passengers wondering what was going on as they could see the R 38 passing us.
Then we got to 14th Street. Of course, the R38 arrive a little before us.
When the doors of our train open, I could hear the conductor on the R38 yelling fratically, "This is a A Express TO Far Rockaway, change for the A to Lefferts Blvd against the wall (he left out the word express) - This is an A express, stand clear the closing doors!"
The A to Far Rockaway then tried to leave us, but luckly, a confused passenger was holding the doors. We end up leaving the 14th Street station around the same time.
Again, the race was on. Both trains were going unusually fast. However, the R44 could not match the speed of the R38. But, unlike the C/E (which goes around the turns slowly), we must have got up to 50 miles per hour before we came to a stop.
We arrived a short time later.
At West Fourth Street, both the A to Far Rockaway and Lefferts Blvd was at it again. But this time, more vivid.
"This is an A express to Far Rockaway - A train to Far Rockaway - A train to Far Rockaway, Lefferts Blvd against the Wall."
Out of fustration (I believe), the Lefferts Blvd conductor had to get into the action. This is an A express to Lefferts Blvd, A Express to Lefferts Blvd, A to Far Rockaway on the center track.
Then, the A to Far Rockaway attempted to close it doors. We also tried to do the same. But like I said before, some confused passenger was holding the doors; preventing us from leaving.
Fortunately, we finally left the West Fourth Street station.
As we were leaving the station, for some reason the A to Far Rockaway disappeared. All of a suden, an F (46) to Coney Island pop up beside us. I became really excited because I was figuring where the F came from. I never knew the F shared the same tracks as the 8th Avenue lines. Then, I notice the F (46) disappearing. And guess what? The A that left the West 4th Street station was on a hill passing us.
One wonders why this occured, but I was really excited about this new discovery.
The A to Far Rockaway dust us as we pass the Spring Street station. And when we got to the Canal Street Station. The R38 doors was already open.
Again, the A's 38 conductor yelled out: This is an A express to Far Rockaway" and at the same time, the A to Leffert yelled out (on top of his lungs: This is an A express to Lefferts Blvd. Change for the A to Far Rockaway (leaving out the Express part).
Then, the A to Far Rockaway attempted to close it doors. We responded.
I say to myself, I know they are not going to leave this station at the same time!!!
Just as we were both about to exceed to the Chambers Street Station, I think the Dispatcher told the two A's to open the doors.
The Dispatcher then instructed the A to Far Rockaway to leave the station first.
I got a chance to get a glimpse of both of the conductors. The A to Far Rockaway conductor was laughing infractically saying, "This is a A express to Far Rockaway with an A to Lefferts against the wall.
Just like Affirmed and Aladar!!!
11/03/99
3Train#2119Mike,
I read your posting and did a double take when I saw your name! I thought this post was by heypaul!!
I had a dream about The (N) returning to the Broadway Express and south side Manhattan Bridge tracks!........WAIT!...that's a fantasy!
Bill Newkirk
Speaking of dreams, fantasies, and actual sitings of two A's riding the rails together, I've been wondering if there was an occasion at DeKalb Ave when the Broadway side of the Bridge was open, when a Sea Beach got stuck on the Bridge for a while, with another one right behind it, causing them to send later Sea Beach trains through the tunnel. Then when the blockage was cleared--- the 1st Sea Beach comes into DeKalb-- then the tunnel Sea Beach comes into DeKalb on the local track -- and finally the 2nd Sea Beach from the bridge comes through on the bypass track---- thus having 3 Sea Beach trains in DeKalb at the same time.
Then to complete the moment forever in the minds of railfans, somehow the 3 trains would crash into each other slightly south of DeKalb--- so that all service would be completely blocked.
Is the fantasy map still in the works????
3TM
42St-UN. Transfer to the S,4,5,6,7 lines via a passageway. The M42 and M104 on the street level. Connection to the MNRR and LIRR at GCT. This is a Fulton St bound P making local stops via 2Av. The next local stop will be 34St. Transfer to the J and Z across the platform making express stops. The M16 and M34 up on the street level. Stand Clear of the closing doors please.......
RIP #34: Walter Payton. Rush for the big yards in the big sky!!!!!!
Funny you should ask...
My "fantasy map" for Chicago's L is now online in GIF format. I hope to have the downtown section and a map legend completed eventually.
Check it out at http://www.NthWard.com/images/master_plan.GIF and let me know what you think.
Be forewarned that the file size is about 454 KB... It will take a while to load.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
The map looks very good. However, it could use a bit more color on the background. That grey is too stark.
I have been advised that because of design problems the closing of the Transit Museum for refurbishing is being delayed until after the first of the year.
Do you know exactly what they are planning to do with it? Perhaps lengthening the platforms to accomodate a host of newly retired cars in the near future?
Basically what's happening here, is the Transit Museum will close for renovation of their electrical system, that is new wiring for their lighting, as is installation of air conditioning on the mezzanine level. The new wiring does not imply a turn to florescent lights, which would make Court St look decidedly inauthentic.
-Stef
To add to Stef's post:
Fire standpipe system, ADA restrooms. There will also be "behind the scenes" enhancements.
SOURCE: Clarence with Museum at a recent tour
Subway Buff, there is already a new set of restrooms for the handicapped at the present time. What more could they do with the restrooms?
Also, in addition to enhancements, if I hear correctly, the gates over the tracks will be replaced with a new set. I believe the gates are being replaced in conjunction with the air conditioning upstairs. The new gates will be needed to keep the air in.
-Stef
I wonder what they will do when the station runs out of room to display all the museum cars. With the imminent retirement of the redbirds, that's at least 4 more cars that will need to go on display. Unless they select one car class to represent all redbirds (I sure hope not!)
It's ALREADY out of room to display the retired msueum cars. Some sit at Coney Island shops.
I'd love to see the lower level of 9th Ave/39th St become a museum annex for additional car storage. There's room for 30 60-foot cars on its three tracks.
--Mark
Perhaps that would be an appropriate locaton for the BMT cars, like the standard and Triplex.
Sicne we've mentioned this before, has the museum ever considered it?
The lower level of the BMT CIty Hall station would be even better for a Museum. 3 operating tracks with 2 island platforms. The only disadvantage to this is there is no mezzanine (as in typical IND construction) so exhibits would be limited to what will fit on the platforms. Also how would they create separate entrances (to distinguish N/R passengers from Museum visitors (Yeah, well Rudy would never go for that one).
I wonder what they will do when the station runs out of room to display all the museum cars. With the imminent retirement of the redbirds, that's at least 4 more cars that will need to go on display. Unless they select one car class to represent all redbirds (I sure hope not!)
If they did put "Redbirds" in the Transit Museum, they wouldn't all be red. The R-26/28's would be dark green (almost black), like the R-27/30. The 29/33 would be red. An R-36 in blue/grey 1964 World's Fair colors is already in the museum. In the Transit Museum, they display the equipment in original colors (most of the time).
They don't have the room to put anymore cars in the Museum right now. If a redbird was to be placed in the Museum, you'd have to kick something in the Museum out the door, which is something that will not happen.
The R33 single already qualifies as a modern car at the Transit Museum. I honestly don't see any other redbirds coming in. A couple of redbirds will probably be preserved, no doubt and will probably sit down at Coney Island.
-Stef
Does anyone know if they are going to consider lengthing the platform (if this is even feasible) to accommodate more older equipment for the museum collection?
Thanks, SubDude
I don't think you can since the platform would block the crossover and transit facilities in the end going towards the Rockaways, while facing what would have been the Manhattan Bound end is not even property of the Transit Museum (beyond the bumping block). Do you think the people would object having the Transit Museum extend itself on their property towards the riverfront? I hear the NIMBY chant coming...
-Stef
Interesting thought ... I understand that under the 2nd IND plan, the Court Street stub was supposed to connect to the WTC stub (new tunnel?).
Did or does the TA own any property for ROWs that were proposed but never built? If the property W of Court Street is privately owned, then obviously not for that case. Perhaps they just came in w/eminent domain when they actually planned to build?
In fact ... do they OWN it at all, or just have an easement for underneath it? For instance, the entire east side of 6th Ave in Manhattan between Greenwich Ave and Houston was obviously torn down to build the W. 4th station -- but there are now post-1940 buildings on the entire thing. Does the TA own this property and sell long-term land leases? Or did they take ownership then sell? Anyone know?
I'm not sure about the ROW's but I believe that one of the buildings on the South Side of Schermerhorn west of Court Street is not a residential brownstone but just a facade for an ventilation tube or something for the Transit System. If it is on the south side that would cause the address to be an even number. Since the numbering starts at Clinton Street to the west the number is between 2 and 50.
Anybody know anything??????
Once while riding on the F Manhattan Bound, past the point where the A/C branch off, I though I saw a space and people with people working in to the side of the trackway. Yesterday, a co-worker found the same thing. Is there an excavated tunnel area adjacent to the tracks approaching York St. If so, what is it used for, and what was it built for?
I know that there's a brownstone on Joralemon St that is supposed to be a ventillation system. Perhaps you are referring to that...
-Stef
You maybe right. Next time I'm down there I'll check it out. It maybe at Bus Fest 2000, which is held in that area
There were actually 3 proposals for the Fulton St Subway Access to Manhattan:
1) The Court St Stub would have been connected with the now infamous 2nd Av Subway. Proposals for the subway go back to the 50s and beyond, and I believe that there was money to build the subway. Robert Wagner could have done it, but Robert Moses interfered.
2) As you mentioned, connect the Fulton St Local Tracks with the local tracks at WTC for IND access to the financial district.
3) There were proposals supposedly to connect the Fulton St Line with the BMT at Whitehall St.
As for property issues, I sincerely doubt that the TA owned the rights to what would have been the private ROW for the routes to be constructed. There was only planning. Those plans were never executed. If for argument sake the property was owned by the city, there would be no problem in building a right of way. If the property is in the hands of private owners, well, you would have to take the property out of their hands.
-Stef
Since I know some of you just can't sleep at night without knowing why SubTalk was down, tonight (11/2/99) from approx 7:30-11:30 my neighborhood was the victim of a blackout caused by a freak storm. This can be verified with the local electric provider PSE&G if you feel that my explanations in the matter haven't been sufficient. :)
-Dave
Can anyone explain the unusual route this train takes? Whenever I ride it the train always pulls onto the middle track and it sits there to allow a J train to pass in front of it. This seems to only happen with this particular train.
Also, is The Bowery being served 24/7 by the J a permanent service change?
er, forgot to mention that the middle track at Essex St. is the one I'm referring to.
you don't mention what station your particular M train waits at from my recollection the M would stop and stay at Broadway-Myrtle to make a connection with a J so passengers wishing to transfer to a Metropolitan Avenue bound M train.
AS for PM Rush Hour service the Express J would stop at Bway-Myrtle middle track connection again with a Local M train to Metropolitan Ave.
Essex St., as I stated in a response when I realized my error.
I'm familiar with the waiting patterns at Myrtle/Bway.
The M is early.
What happened monday at around 4:00. I was on an E out of WTC. When we got to Canal St., we went express. The whole time we were either equal with or just behind the train that had left just before us (Imagine the surprise when an E train pulled in on the express track next to an E on the local track). We got to 42nd St and had to hold for the E in front of us then switched back to the queensbound track. I can't figure out why we did this since we didn't change places in the line up. There was a diversion on 6th Avenue that sent F trains up the E from West Fourth (an "incident" at 34th) but that didn't seem to explain it since if the F was at least two train lengths behind our position had we been on the E. I noticed that a C pulled up after the E left 42nd (I got off there). And that all trains (A, C and E) were crawling through 42nd. So my question is why would a train be sent express when it didn't change the headway and actually seemed to delay it.
Mike
I don't know what happened at 34th on the F - I went down monday and there was a train stopped about halfway in the station. Half of a door panel on each car I could see was open and they appeared to have evacuated this way. The lights were off in the train. Most of the platform was closed off by the police. I had to go up to 42nd and get a 7. Yesterday and today were only slightly better, with long waits for packed trains that somehow were constantly delayed by congestion up ahead... I don't know where it came from, because no trains had passed in a while. There's what looks like sawdust on the uptown F tracks at 34th street where the front of the train was but I still haven't heard any indication of what the problem was. Does anyone know?
I know a person was struck by that F train, but I don't have any info regarding suicide, accident, etc.
There was a 12-9 at 34 st on the F. He apparently jumped at the south end of the N/B plat. No chance of survival when you do it right. The saw dust that was seen latter was used to absorb the body fluids. All the F were put up 8th ave from W4st. The switches are out N/B at Jay st. At W4st 6th Av trains can only be put on A1 track(local) N/B. So some N/B E were put on the express to releve congestion on the local. The C's would at least have a fighting chance to get uptown. You can't put to many C's on the Exp. it's the only train that serves 50st for 8th ave service. If the switches were working at Jay st, all the F's that would have been rerouted there could have been put on the Exp.(A4 track) at Canal St.
What should have been done, but was not, would have been to ABD (abandon) a few intervals out of Stillwell on the F. This incident lasted right thru the rush hour. They should have known down there that the F's would have no place to go! I don't run the railroad, I just observe and report it. I hope I answered your question.
ABD on the F. Are you kidding? It's rare to ABD intervals on the F. I was going southbound when it happened. I got caught with Queens bound passengers along 6 Ave with the reroutes.They were going to W4 st for F service via 8 ave. A few F trains were sent via crosstown also. The person apparently jumped off the platform at the conductors position since the saw dust was in that area.
I forgot about Crosstown on the G. After it was over, when we found out how many they sent Crosstown, it was a very low number.
Does anybody know the origin of the naming and coloring scheme for the different subway lines? I would be really interested in knowing, since there seems to be very little sense in it though I'm told there's method to the madness.
The names are easy: they're either blandly descriptive: Washington Heights Line, Lexington Avenue Line, etc., or reflect history: Culver Line (for Andrew Culver, its founder), Sea Beach Line (for the New York & Sea Beach RR), Brighton Beach Line (both Beach and Line named by its founders).
I don't think there's any grand scheme to the coloring. Originally, there were no colors at all, then some map makers began to use colors to distinguish between the different operating companies. For example, Hagstrom used yellow for the BMT, blue for the IRT, red for the IND. Elevated lines of any company were a skinny black line.
When the TA decided to start coloring in the late '60s, they didn't use today's scheme. Each individual line had its own color. some colors were used on more than one line, but they managed to see that no individual station had more than one line with a particular color. This was accomplished by having lots of different colors. For example, IIRC, the A train was DARK blue, the E train was LIGHT blue. None of this mattered much, because noone paid much attention to the colors anyway.
The current coloring, using main lines to determine color, is much more sensible. However, I don't think anyone who's spent more than a week in NYC would refer to a line by its color as is done in other cities.
The color is based on Avenue in Midtown Manhattan:
Blue.........8th ave
Red..........7th ave
Orange.......6th ave
Yellow.......Broadway
Black........Shuttles (usually)
Green........Lexington Avenue
That leaves Crosstown lines:
Purple.......Flushing/Corona(7)
Lt Green.....IND Crosstown (G)
Gray.........14th Street/Canarsie
When a line continues its color is not changed meaning an orange train sign in Queens denotes that in Manhattan it will be on 6th Ave (assuming no G.O.)
Franklin is Black and Rockaway park is Blue
don't forget brown - Nassau
subfan
One interesting thing was that the current colors were adapted from the 1967-78 map. The alone lines (L, G, 7) got to keep their colors, and the others got the colors of the principal express (Broadway N, 8 Ave A, 6 Ave D, 7 Ave 2). The JFK Express got light blue because they wanted it separate, but it was still mostly alongside the A. The 4 was also Red like the 2, and there was also some conflict with the J, so they just gave them new colors. I came up with the crazy idea that of the two remaining colors, the Lex got green because green is one of the 7 main colors of the electromagnetic spectrum, the only one not taken by another line, and the Lex is more important than Nassau. The shuttles got black because they're not really part of a line, and black is not really a color. There are only two other lines for which I figured out why their colors are so. The Flushing probably because of the World's Fair or something and The G because that's the color of the tile band in all of it's alone stations. That's just my theory. This of course assumes that there is any logic to it all.
Next they are going to change the names of the lines to the colors they use on the map, Red Line Green Line etc like Boston, Chic, LA etc just to confuse use more
Next they are going to change the names of the lines to the colors they use on the map, Red Line Green Line etc like Boston, Chic, LA etc just to confuse use more.
Not enough colors exist for this purpose. We have too many lines for that.
What they can do is use the map colors and names the lines after that, but you are right they never will do that, can you Imagine Times Square change form the Fuscia local across the platform, This is the Burgandy line to 241st White Plains Road
The letters and number make some sense.
IND: Notice that until 1997, the IND lines were in order from west to east of it's northern terminal, two lines were at each terminal, three in Queens. The lower the letter, the further west the line is. For example, you have E, F and G. The E is the lowest and therefore goes to 8 Avenue, the westernmost line. The F is next and goes on step east to 6 and the next one G goes even further east to B-Q Crosstown. The southern terminal was assigned based on how convenient it is to run what train there. The IND trains running on BMT lines work that way too.
IRT: Similar to IND, 1, 2, 3 on the West, 4, 5, 6 on the east and 7 even further east! The terminals are set up the same way, except that the 3 is physically west of the 2. But then the 2 is east of 4, so does it matter? South is assigned the same way as IND. The 9 was chosen because there were only two other single digits left and I guess the TA didn't want to go to doubles before exhausting all the singles. I don't know if the fact that the 3 Ave El was 8 matters in their decision.
BMT: I never understood this as well. The Eastern Division was assigned letters J-M, where it makes sense that the J goes via Jamaica and the M via Myrtle. The Z was assigned because it was available. The N-T went to the Southern Division (T was West End), which the Culver was no longer a part of (it was part of the IND D train, the one that goes via Brighton today) although I can't figure out why certain letters went where.
What is the "L" on the Canarsie line supposed to mean. I have seen old pictures when it was refered to as the #16. When I was in high school and it was the LL, I assumed it stood for "Lousey Line".
When it was the BMT the 14th Street Carnasie Line was Route number 16, after 1967/68 Consolidation to letters it was changed to LL since it was a local. In 1986 the double letters were elimated and it was changed to L, it is still the same line, as I stated sometime soon they will name the lines for colors, This is the Red Line change for the yellow, orange green blus and purple lines to who knows where, doors closing
J-M were used for the Eastern Division. J & M are obvious, the K was paired with the J as they follow one another. So the L remains.
11/03/99
1)Last Saturday I noticed the new MVM's a the BMT City Hall station. The standard screen is a bright blue and yellow. Now at the IRT Penn Station (1,2,3,9) MVM's one or two screens are a faded blue and yellow. Are these monitor screens prematurly aging?
2)When you refill a card (add more value) the MVM accepts your card and returns it to when you add more value or cancel transaction. Is there a case,possibly a security thing,when a Metrocard (stolen etc) is retained by the MVM and not returned?
IN yesterdays Daily News Queens section there was an article about new MVM's on the Queens IND subway and new ones to appear in the future. The article mentioned that MVM's will be going outside the "system" and appear in supermarkets,deli's etc. Also the article mentioned and increase in HEET's,those "high wheel" turnstiles in thre future.The old ones were nicknamed the "Iron maidens" and were notoriously token eaters. What will we call the new HEET's,the "Stainless steel maidens"?
Bill Newkirk
"2)When you refill a card (add more value) the MVM accepts your card and returns it to when you add more value or cancel transaction. Is there a case,possibly a security thing,when a Metrocard (stolen etc) is retained by the MVM and not returned?"
I don't think the MVMs are "on-line", but I'll let one of our Station Agent friends confirm this. If they were they could keep a stolen MC. The system has a "negitive list", was called black list but that was politically incorrect. It takes about 24 hours for every turnstile and bus in the system to learn of a negitive listed card. If you can prove to the refund office that it was YOUR card they can find out how much time/money was left on it when it got listed. Mail & Rides therefore have a easy time getting a refund.
Mr t__:^)
They are on-line in a sense that if there is a problem an error message will appear on the screen of our computer in the booth.
Negative listed cards: For turnstiles the display will show "SEE AGENT". I will check the card in my computer which will show that it is a negative listed card.
While not sure, I believe the MVM will probably reject the transaction and ask them to see the agent.
**opinions expressed aree my own and not those of MTA or NYCT***
That makes since, otherwise you could steal a card & move the money to another MC. I wonder if the system is smart enough to see someone doing this just before the card makes it to the negitive list ? It wouldn't be able to stop the transaction, but could negitive list the new card shortly thereafter.
Mr t__:^)
Since there's a thread on MVMs started, I noticed today that there are MVMs at Canal Street BMT, I didn't notice them last Monday. When where they installed (in case someone knows)?
I just read that the MTA is beginning its move to 2 Broadway, but that the building will be occupied no so much by the MTA itself (which I had thought) as by 4,000 employees from the operating agencies.
Who from the Transit Authority is moving to 2 Broadway? What buildings in Downtown Brooklyn are they moving out of? This is something I'd like to know for my job, so anyone who knows the real story please let me know.
There is an article about the MTA's move into 2 Broadway in today's NY Times, page B6, or here on their registration-required web site.
It's a Commercial Real Estate article, so mentions of the move from an MTA standpoint are pretty minimal and vague. It says 2 B'way will become an "operational center" for NYCT and B&T; people will be moved from "leased space" in Manhattan and Brooklyn, and from Randalls Island.
It seems to me that the TA's move into 2 Broadway is the sort of thing that could be bad for the city's economy. Toward the middle of the _Times_ column, it was mentioned that Goldman Sachs also had sought after 2 Broadway, presumably for expansion of their existing operations. With the building now unavailable, Goldman Sachs will have to look elsewhere - quite possibly outside the city, as most other city buildings would cost more than 2 Broadway.
The TA's move into the building will do little or nothing for the economy or the real estate market. I don't believe that they have any plans to add to their staff as a result of the move. Workers will relocate from other sites in the city; while some of them will come from 10 Columbus Circle, which will (well, might) be demolished, other buildings will be left vacant.
In fact, an article in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago talked about Goldman Sachs negotiating to buy some currently vacant waterfront land in Jersey City.
I know of some folks that moved from 130 Livingston. It's now part of MDC, Manhattan Data Center ... if exchange 465 is at 2 Broadway.
Mr t__:^)
I wonder if they are emptying 130 Livingston because their lease is up? If it's a long term lease, perhaps they'll move their head office there, and tear down the transit building at 370 Jay. Its UGLY, and a hotel builder would take the site in a second.
New York's problem is that there is not enough space ANYWHERE right now. The only thing available is the UPPER floors of buildings outside Manhattan that are over 50 years old, and have not been maintained, or very small storefronts in poor neighborhoods.
That is odd about 130 Livingston. It is a relatively new building in the Downtown Brooklyn Skyline.
I believe most MetroCard-related operations are based there. Also NYCT personnel operations (internal newsletter, various other publications) are directed from 130 Livingston.
I would assume that the older building, 370 Jay (a famous institution in it's own right), would be the likely candidate to be vacated in favor of 2 Broadway. It should be interesting to see exactly WHAT divisions of MTA end up in lower Manhattan.
As usual....SubDude
Thats what I heard ten years ago when the TA was leasing it from Citibank. I heard the lease was terminated when Citibank found out of the model boards in Control Center, therefore making it a "permanent" arrangement. It was one possible reason for moving into the new Livingston building. By the way talking of the arrogance of the NYCTA, did anyone notice the MTA logo on a flag at the top of the building a few years ago standing next to Betsy Ross's version? It really reinforces the notion I have that there is a Berlin Wall separating them from the rest of New York and that they operate like a diplomat over a midtown parking space. The MTA flag on public property symbolizes the foreign policies they hide behind when it comes to dealing with our local government.
A New Rail Control Center is being built on West 53rd Street. That location will have a model board fo the entire system and be state of the art.
The TA never leased 370 Jay Street from Citibank. The building has always been owned by the City of New York. Citibank leased space on the first floor, but has been gone for many years, and nobody ever moved into the former bank space.
David
[Thats what I heard ten years ago when the TA was leasing it from Citibank. I heard the lease was terminated when Citibank found out of the model boards in Control Center, therefore making it a "permanent" arrangement. It was one possible reason for moving into the new Livingston building. By the way talking of the arrogance of the NYCTA, did anyone notice the MTA logo on a flag at the top of the building a few years ago standing next to Betsy Ross's version? It really reinforces the notion I have that there is a Berlin Wall separating them from the rest of New York and that they operate like a diplomat over a midtown parking space. The MTA flag on public property symbolizes the foreign policies they hide behind when it comes to dealing with our local government.]
[... 370 Jay Street ... building has always been owned by the City of New York. Citibank leased space on the first floor, but has been gone for many years, and nobody ever moved into the former bank space.]
I've been in a TA "training" facility on the ground floor ????
P.S. to Larry ... MCD is at 34th & 10th Ave not 2 Broadway. I think it where the mainframes call home.
Mr t__:^)
I had spoke to my dad about this. He was tellin me something about going to CI. He really does not want to travel into the city. He prefers to stay in his home borough. BROOKLYN!!!!!!!!!!
3TM
14St. Transfer to the L on the upper level. The M14 on the street level. The next station will be 9St. Transfer to the M8. Stand Clear.......
Congratulations on getting rid of the Republicans -- even if that means you got stuck with the Democrats. Sometimes switching to the other bums gets you a few improvements, at least in the short run.
Can wait for 2001, and NYC term limits.
I spoke with several Republicans who live in Nassau who said they were voting Democratic this time. I believe the vote is due to voter anger, not a new trend. Nassau County has been mismanaged for decades.
Republicans usually champion themselves as tax cutters. First, over the summer, they put in a real estate transfer tax, then only last week, they raised property taxes. This for one of the highest taxed counties in the nation!. Those guys must have been on druges if they thought they could raise property taxes a week before the election and get away with it.
Mabey these Democrats will want to extend some of the Queens subways into Nassau County to ease up congestion on the highways. (Now that is a real fantasy!!)
[Congratulations on getting rid of the Republicans -- even if that means you got stuck with the Democrats. Sometimes switching to the other bums gets you a few improvements, at least in the short run.]
Under the Republican regime, Nassau County has managed to pull off the impossible - run huge deficits despite having a strong economy and staggeringly high tax rates. Anyone who complains that NYC is mismanaged ought to look east over the county line.
As far as transit is concerned, it'll be interesting to see what the new county legislature does with the proposed Nassau Hub light rail. Although Thomas Gulotta (the Republican county supervisor, who wasn't up for re-election this year) had spoken out in favor of the plan, it wasn't his pet project or anything like that. My guess is that the light rail plan might get more serious attention if the Democrats can get the county's finances in order.
Although they didn't say so, I think Nassau's problems go deeper than waste and patronage, which go back a long way. So the Democrats will have more difficulty dealing with the problem than they think. Nassau's problems are:
1) A growing elderly population. Many of those who moved out in the 1950s and 1960s are aging, and once they hit the nursing home/home care age, that means Medicaid. Although the local contribution for the elderly is just 10 percent, I'll bet that expenditure is soaring. Medicaid is a county expenditure in Nassau. NYC's elderly population is falling, as the old people who were left behind by suburbanization are left out.
2) And, I'll bet there are lots of moderate income workers living in illegal second units in Nassau. Those working in the malls don't get health insurance, and this adds to the Medicaid burden.
3) Loss of the business tax base. The one thing that makes NYC's tax burden tolerable is that much of it is carried by businesses in Manhattan south of 96th Street (there are so many incentive programs outside that area that you can practically do business there tax free). In Nassau, the defense industry pulled out, and the value of commercial property plunged, in the 1989-1993 period. NYC was hit too -- its property taxes fell by 33 percent relative to income -- but in Nassau property taxes are the whole thing.
Which brings us to the Nassau Hub. As I mentioned in a prior post, Manhattan, the #1 place in the region, is filling again. But the outer boroughs are losing out to the NJ Waterfront in capturing the close in spillover, and Long Island is losing out to Stamford and central NJ in the rest. In Nassau there is no there, there. If the county could create a major, tax paying Downtown it would be far ahead, but squabbling municipalities might spoil the plan.
When was the last Republican Administration on any level, Fed, State, County or Municipal, do anything for Mass Transit, and where?
Outside of Mayor LaGuardia purchasing the IRT and BMT to merge witht he city owned IND, nothing.
(When have Republicans help mass transit?) They are all in favor of investment in mass transit, outside of older cities where poor and dark skinned people live. You go on the tours of other cities and you find loads of investment in new transit lines, everywhere else. Our job is to pay for it. Our representatives secure money for their friends in health care in exchange.
[(When have Republicans help mass transit?) They are all in favor of investment in mass transit, outside of older cities where poor and dark skinned people live. You go on the tours of other cities and you find loads of investment in new transit lines, everywhere else. Our job is to pay for it.]
Poor and dark skinned people do live outside the older cities and often use transit where they live. I do not expect that ridership on the newer, Sunbelt transit systems - the ones Republicans favor - is 100% Caucasian. Have you heard the "joke" about what MARTA stands for?
To the extent that Republicans dislike New York and some other older cities, it's because these places (especially NYC, of course) give them very few votes. Race is not the direct issue.
Yeah, when I lived in Nassau we used to call the County Exec Thomas Goulotta. No surprise.
SubDude
If I have to choose between the 2 evils (democrats and republicans), then I'd much rather have repbulicans.
Reguardless of who's in charge, Nassau County is still screwed.
It's always healthier -- politically -- for an even balance between Dems and Repubs.
The City, after decades of just Dems in charge -- with Guiliani -- has gotten some Republican representation. Whether we like the Mayor, or not, still having the City's "minority" political party in the Mayoral Administration is healthy for a change.
SubDude
While I don't like one party to ave too much power, I'd rather see republicans than democrats almost everywhere. Republicans like to let people screw up their lives, while democrats prefer doing it themselves.
Doug, that's a great observation.
People think Giuliani is something completely different, but there is a long tradition in NYC of letting the machine run things for a couple of decades, then when it screws up, they elect a reformer, usually under a "fusion" banner.
The reformer almost never lasts more than 2 terms before people get fed up with him for the very reasons he was elected in the first place--he's usually an honest but stubborn moralist.
Then people reembrace the same-old, same-old until the City gets itself in big trouble.
Again.
Giuliani should have tried to groom a successor. He tried an end run around the city charter to stop Green from going to City Hall if he wins the senatorial, but was stopped from doing it. Now we'll be stuck with Green at Gracie if it's Senator Rudy. There seem to be no viable Republicans for the '01 mayoral race but there are a couple (just a couple) decent Dems. Hevesi maybe? Lord help us if it's, say, Green vs Sharpton. I'll move to Hoboken.
The reality is if that had the measure passed, there would have to be an election and Green or some other Democrat would have won it anyway. New York gets a republican mayor once every fifty years (LaGuardia was the last one). Rudy can't groom anyone to suceed him because there is no one out there to groom.
The Democrats made a lot of noise about this issue, but as usual it was all spin. A year from now, no one will remebember this vote when we are choosing our next senator.
My own prediction, neither Hillary or Rudy will end up running. Both of them are making a lot of noise, but neither will run. Right now they are both having lots of fun playing there little games, but neither is a serious candidate.
NYC gets a Republican more like every quarter-century. You forgot Lindsay.
NYC Republicans are not usually Republicans in a national sense. My family was involved in local NYC politics a lot, and my cousin Sy Halpern was a Republican Queens congressman. He explained to me that an NYC Republican is really an anti-Tammany Democrat.
Of course Tammany passed on as an effective Democratic organization four decades ago, but the principle still fits.
A counterpoint is that out in the 'burbs disgruntled Republicans sometimes run, and win, as Democrats. Carolyn McCarthy is one of the better known examples.
Lindsay was not a real Republican. He was originally a Democrat and switched in 1965 when he ran for mayor. The Republicans hated him so much that they denied him the nomination in 1969 and nominated Mario Propachino instead. Lindsay switched back to the Democratic party in 1972 when he made his presidental run, which destroyed his already tarnished image and ruined his career.
No, Lindsay always ran as a Republican, including four successful congressional runs in the "Silk Stocking" district of Manhattan. He ran as a Republican with Liberal party support in the 1965 Mayoral race. In 1969, he lost the Republican nomination, IIRC, to John Marchi of Staten Island. Procacino was a Democrat and ran as such. Lindsay ran on the Liberal line only and won in a three-way split, essentially on a platform that NYC didn't burn down while Newark and other cities did.
His political career was pretty much in shambles by the time of his switch to the Democratic Party, where he thought he'd fit in. When he didn't run for renomination in 1973 his popularity had a bit of a renaissance.
Lindsay was an attractive and intelligent man and the first person I ever met who taught me what "charisma" meant, but like some other "golden boys," he was too full of himself and the rightness of his opinions.
As to his being a "real" Republican, my point in my earlier posting was that politicians who run on the GOP line in NYC are often not "real" Republicans, in the national sense.
[re John Lindsay]
[When he didn't run for renomination in 1973 his popularity had a bit of a renaissance.]
If he had run, and won, in 1973, would we be able to ride the Second Avenue subway today? Or would there have been a Lindsay Shuffle?
I don't know if the line would be there but I would estimate that most of the elevated lines would have collapsed by now.
If [Lindsay] had run, and won, in 1973, would we be able to ride the Second Avenue subway today? Or would there have been a Lindsay Shuffle?
Lindsay's last words should have been Aprés moi, le deluge. Not only wouldn't we have had the 2nd Avenue subway, the City probably couldn't have avoided bankruptcy.
[Lindsay's last words should have been Aprés moi, le deluge. Not only wouldn't we have had the 2nd Avenue subway, the City probably couldn't have avoided bankruptcy.]
Hmmm. Guess I'll have to stop blaming Dishonest Abe for the Slaughter on Second Avenue :-)
(Now as far as municipal bankruptcy is concerned, I'll stand by my previous statement that it would have been an excellent development in the long run - and, had it occurred, the Second Avenue subway might be open today).
The only good thing Lindsay brought to New York were the cool looking slant R-40 cars. Yeah, I know their large gaps weren't safe, but we DID get a change of pace from the overly boxy cars that were prevalant at that time.
SubDude
IIRC, Lindsay also specified that, henceforth, the city would only buy air-conditioned buses.
I'd say there would have been a shuffle. The City's finiancial condition was in a shambles by the dawn of the 1970s and even with all the smoke and mirrors it was evident that public $$ to keep things going was in short supply. The when the 75 crunch hit, it hit with a bang.
[If he had run, and won, in 1973, would we be able to ride the Second Avenue subway today?]
On Transit Transit last night is a quick shot of Rockefeller & Lindsey doing the first shoveling for the 2nd Ave Stubway.
Rockfeller and Lindsay....
What were they shoveling?
They were swinging a pick & shoveling the first dirt for the 2nd Ave Stubway (a cast of hundreds were watching).
Mr t__:^)
I think Paul meant they were shoveling something else...
When Lindsey was mayor he and the budget experts helped introduce the "370-day year" which allowed revenues from the next fiscal year to be counted as part of the current one for budget purposes. Since he was the comptroller at the time Beame didn't call Lindsey on it, so when the bill came due, like a game of musical chairs, he was the one caught with no safe place to land.
BTW -- The House Republicans in Congress floated a similar "lets add a few days of next year onto this year" plan in their recent budget talks, as a way of avoiding dipping into the Social Security surplus. It's nice to know some people have learned so much from the past 25 years.
(Congress tried a similar trick)
There must be some type of "how to" manual for fiscally irresponsible Republicans somewhere. Which leads us to the MTA. They claim that improvements like the 2nd Avenue Subway and LIRR to GCT will be finished in the next 5 year plan. In reality, there will be no such plan, because the MTA will be so deep in debt. After 2005, the MTA will be borrowing to pay off bonds, and will be unable to maintain, let alone finish improve, the system.
They did it last time, and I thought it was because there was a recession on, and no other money to spend. What can you say about this?
Lindsey's policies drove the city into bankruptcy. I don't know of any mayor in recent memory that really helped transit. Most of the transit money and power comes from the state of New York. I don't think I will ever live to see the 2nd Ave subway or the LIRR east side access. The MTA;s record on building new lines is unblemished by success. Since they were created in 1965 they built a 1 mile el relocation in Queens (Archer Ave) and the 63rd street tunnel which doesn't connect with anything on the Queens side.
At the risk of heresy, I've thought about it, and I think city residents would be better off in the capital plan doesn't happen. If it does pass, the MTA will go even deeper in debt, and the LIRR to GCT will get built, but everything in the city will just get "studied." The city will be putting up money for this, but not the state and suburban counties.
If the MTA plan doesn't pass, the MTA will have to live year to year with pay-as-you go money from a variety of sources. The city has demanded that its share go for the N to LaGuardia, so that will get built. The state will contribute nothing as will the suburbs, so they will get nothing but their share of pay-as-you go money. The R30, R38 and R40 may have to hang on a little longer, as will some of the RTS, but that's OK. No deal is better than a bad deal in the long run.
Same thing with the Port Authority. They'll still have money for the airports, because those make money, and they can't use the Passenger Facility Charge collected in NYC for spending in NJ.
Some say half a loaf is better than none. I say I'm sick of paying for a whole loaf and having someone else get a loaf and a half. Better to tread water until a fair deal is on the table. Many things will have to change to get to that point. I'm afraid Silver is angling to get paid, then sell us out again.
An interesting point of view Larry. I'm going to have to think about it some more before agreeing or disagreeing. Wonder what Peter will have to say about it ?
Mr t__:^)
on the Queens side.>
That's not fair. The Queens Connector will open for revenue service in 2001. Granted it has taken *25* or so years for that to happen, but this is a bad example of an otherwise fair point.
2001 Is a long way away and that line is not open yet. However, I hope you are right and it does open.
Unfortunatly for East side commuters, that's about as far as construction got before NYC's financial pyramid collapsed.
Lindsay's popularity declined when the bills came due. Who is the most powerful politician in NYC today? John Lindsay. NYC still spends far more than the average local government debt service (on debts run up by Lindsay), pensions (granted by Lindsay), and the health and social services industries (the base of the "reform" Democrats that Lindsay rode to power). It spends less on schools, infrastructure, parks, and cultural affairs. And its taxes are still high. The decisions John Lindsay made have been railed against, but not unmade. And there is still no 2nd Avenue subway. Politicians drive.
Right, Paul. Lindsay is what I like to call one of those politicos that was shaped from the "Rockefeller Republican" mold.
BTW, isn't a "Rockefeller Republican" a term used to describe NYC-based GOP members?
SubDude
BTW, isn't a "Rockefeller Republican" a term used to describe NYC-based GOP members?
Hmmm...
Quite a few liberal NYC Republicans predated Rockefeller's governorship.
I would say a Rockfeller Republican today represents a fairly liberal, internationalist (his brother was foudner of the Trilateral Commission)--I would call Bush Sr. a "Rockefeller Republican."
Perhaps Bill Bratton should give it a try. It would be funny having a mayor of NYC with a Boston accent.
If Bill Bratton ran, he would be more hated than Giuliani in no time flat.
He's every bit as charming as Giuliani is, but what does he know of governance, other than police work.
As a Republican I can vouch for the fact that my party has the ability to shoot from the lip and sometimes screw things up. Big mouth Gingrich was a good example of that. However, give the Democrats carte blanche without Republicans able to curb their tax and spend habits, and WATCH OUT!!! You better keep a strong and sturdy hand on your wallet because it could disappear.
(What does Bill Bratton know of government, other than police work). Perhaps he knows how to delegate, unlike you know who, so perhaps something other than police work would get done.
[ Perhaps Bratton can delegate ]
Maybe. But my sense of Bratton is someone who not only cannot delegate, but thinks he knows more than the boss.
And as to his ego, when Bratton left, The Times allowed that he had been largely responsible for a drop in crime, but now that he was gone, crime would level off, in not increase.
Crime's continued to decline.
There are some things that the top man should not delegate, if he knows what he's doing. Dinkins delegated everything.
True. And to add to that: I've heard that Bratton's ego is almost as substantial as Giuliani's. That's why they were always "locking horns" on both policy and publicity issues. Their personalities were too similar for them to work together.
Just a tad, SubDude
Forget Bratton.
City Council Speaker Peter Vallone has shown he can work with all communities in NYC and he has a good background in municipal government.
Don't forget, he was the only member of the City Council who had the backbone to stand up to Giuliani's bullying tactics.
I'd give him my vote tomorrow if I could.
Just a bit......SubDude
Vallone? I'm afraid he'll lead Archie Bunker's last theft: everyone in the White Welfare crowd gets paid, then moves out, just like in the 1950s and 1960s. Lets just say I haven't seen any evidence that he is interested in the long run.
Still, he scares me less than Mark Green. And none of them have to worry what I think, because I can't vote in a primary.
I'm a Republican but the yada yada that Joe Mondella and local guys were trying to hand us, plus that tax increase they tryed to slip through was just too much for me. If Joe had helped Tom Gulotta solve the problem years ago (when he first tryed to do something about it) Nassau wouldn't be in the shape it's in. I think the Republicans got what they deserved, maybe they won't be so complacent about SERVING the public in this county.
Nassau Hub ... I don't think it has a chance in hell. It would be a lot of money for a stand alone system. I think there's a lot of room for improving the bus service before there's enough volume to justify a new LRV system.
Mr t__:^)
re Nassau Hub light rail ... as pro-transit as I am, I just can't figure out what purpose the system would serve. More specifically, try as I will, I simply can't determine who its target population would be. Which leads to the possibility that it would be _no one_.
If the Nassau County pols are really interested in spending megabucks on transit (yeah right), let them add a third or ideally fourth track to the LIRR mainline.
If they want to concentrate commercial development in that area, they could at least put an LIRR spur in the middle of it, so workers from NYC could get there. The problem is that anywhere you build anything in Nassau, it will create a traffic problem, because everyone drives. So you either don't build anything, and don't get any business taxes, or you build anyway with transit, live with the traffic, but give people a transit option if they are smart enough to take it.
[If they want to concentrate commercial development in that area (Nassau Hub), they could at least put an LIRR spur in the middle of it, so workers from NYC could get there.]
With only two tracks on the LIRR mainline, expanding reverse-commuter service is all but impossible. Adding a spur line wouldn't make much difference. Now, if the idea is to make transportation easier for NYC residents who work outside the standard 9-5 workday, such as people working at Roosevelt Field, the spur line idea would make more sense. In other words, there's no capacity for increasing reverse-commuter service, but off-peak service is a different matter.
Reactivating the Garden City Secondary would be a relatively inexpensive start.
Although I couldn't care less about the Nassau Hub (I live near there & don't want it "in my backyard" it is not impossible if you use the Hempstead Line and the tracks that lead to Roosevelt Field. The tracks are in use to the yard alongside Stewart Avenue (The Circus Train uses it) and there are still tracks crossing Stewart towards Roosevelt Field and Roosevelt Raceway. I don't know what shape they're in, I remember freight trains going through there years ago.
Is Suffolk County as crowded and congested as Nassau. When I moved from New York in 1954, Nassau County was suburbs with a lot of open space, and Suffolk was country, and lots of trees and forests and abundant space. How is it today? I haven't been to Suffolk County since 1953.
Suffolk County is suburban as far east as Farmingville and Patchoge. It has more people than Nassau, but is not as wealthy. The rich on the east end want to secede and set up a new county, Peconic, so they don't have to pay taxes for the growing low-income minority population in the centers of the old towns. They give environmental excuses.
[Suffolk County is suburban as far east as Farmingville and Patchoge. It has more people than Nassau, but is not as wealthy. The rich on the east end want to secede and set up a new county, Peconic, so they don't have to pay taxes for the growing low-income minority population in the centers of the old towns. They give environmental excuses.]
A few comments on Suffolk County. Farmingville is no longer the eastern border of the suburban zone. I live one town east in Medford, which is getting quite heavily developed even though there still are some open areas. Along the North Shore, suburban development has spread at least as far east as Shoreham and Wading River, and just south of that into Middle Island. There also are patches of suburban-style development farther east, most notably in Manorville, Mastic-Shirley and Riverhead, although these are largely outside the commuter zone (but maybe not, all these people driving to Ronkonkoma station have to be coming from somewhere ...) I'm not counting the Hamptons as suburbs even though that's just what many parts of them closely resemble.
Comparing the relative wealth of Nassau and Suffolk is a bit complicated. My suspicion is that there's a mean vs. median distinction involved. Nassau has a substantial number of truly stinking filthy rich people, far more than Suffolk, which boosts its mean income. If you compared medians, however, I suspect there wouldn't be much of a difference. Both counties have their shares of the poor, who in Suffolk's case at least tend to be concentrated in a few relatively small locations (North Amityville, Wyandanch, Huntington Station, North Bellport, Central Islip, a few others). One thing worth noting is that Suffolk seems to be getting the lion's share of Long Island's commercial and industrial development. It has some major concentrations of jobs - the Melville office parks, the Hauppauge Industrial Park, the growing commercial/industrial area around MacArthur Airport - which seem to be bigger than anything in Nassau.
Finally, I haven't heard much lately about the "Peconic County" movement. Most of the typical county resident's tax burden goes to the support of the local schools, so it's unlikely that many people on the East End would be concerned about supporting the poor elsewhere in the county.
Nassau (where I live, in East Meadow) is probably like Queens was when you left. There are alot of office bldgs. Meadowbrook Hospital in East Meadow is now the Nassau County Medical Center at 19 floors. You can see it from the Empire State Bldg.
Suffolk, on the other hand, (except for the Hamptons) is one big trailor park.
JUST KIDDING!!
Jeff
I think Long Island made a bad choice. It added lanes to the LIE and Grand Central, at huge expense, instead of tracks on the LIRR. Politicians drive.
A good start would be getting routes like the N27 to run on evenings and Sundays, since alot of the traffic in the area comes from areas served by this route.
It would be nice to see Nassau county have a subway system though, not just the HUB line but others too, because it's getting too crowded here and we need adequate mass transit. I know NIMBY's freak when they hear the word subway, but maybe by the time it gets built we can turn them all to stone.
"This is a Long Beach bound Shore line train, next stop will be Roosevelt Field, please stand clear of the closing doors."
A couple of the problems are the frequency of the buses & when they end service for the day, e.g.
Last year my daughter wanted to take the N15 from Mineola LIRR vs. Stonybrook to Jamaica, then reverse to get East. Her boy friend tryed this a couple of times too (he was comming from Glen Cove). Neither could get on the bus because it was full. Second example, my other daughter was willing to take N16 to Nassau Community College, but for a night student the last bus leaves just before class gets out.
Mr t__:^)
Brooklyn and Queens are part of Long Island, yet nobody seems to know that. As a result, we must SECEDE from Long Island. This will be achieved by a canal along the border, if necessary to make the canal easier to build, there would be some land transfer. Nassau and Suffolk would stay Long Island. NYC would get ROYAL ISLAND.
Someone once wrote a satirical column in Newsday a while back that proposed that they should cut L.I. off from the Queens border and turn it around. Then Montauk & Orient Pt would be attached to NYC. Great Neck, Elmont, Valley Stream, & the 5 Towns would then be on the East End. The Hamptons would be a short commute for the rich. There would be a big lake at the city line between both forks. Suffolk would rapidly build up. The ferries to Connecticut would run either from Captree or Atlantic Beach. Ocean Pkway (the one on L.I., not Bklyn) would run along the scenic L.I. Sound. The Montauk Lighthouse would become a really big tourist attraction since it would be at the Queens Line by Little Neck. The major problem would be the Belmont Stakes. Who would want to travel that far to see it?
(Brooklyn and Queens should secede from Long Island).
A little irony here: in the late 1950s, the Catholic Church established the Diocese of Rockville Center, breaking Nassau and Suffolk off from the Diocese of Brooklyn, which still includes Queens. There were just too many Catholics on Long Island, so they felt they had to divide it up somehow.
As a result, the Diocese of Brooklyn and Queens is THE POOREST in the United States. A Diocese operates a little like a state government, with common resources redistributed to poor parishes and poor Catholic Schools. But in the Diocese of Brooklyn and Queens, there aren't that many rich parishes left to redistribute from. Meanwhile, the Diocese of Rockville Center is one of the richest in the country.
No such division in the Diocese of New York. Westchester, Rockland, Putnam, Staten Island and Manhattan parishes must still support all those poor parishes in the Bronx.
Who cut that deal anyway?
Larry, someone I know who's very involved with Catholic Charities had told me the same thing many years ago. It blew my mind, since I always thought the the Diocese of New York INCLUDED all the five boroughs (Like a numb-skull, as a youngster, I assumed the Church ran things like City government -- all boroughs being inclusive -- wrong!).
SubDude
P.S.: one of the biggest land owners in New York is the Catholic Church! (So don't be fooled when they say they're hurting for cash!)
(One of the biggest landowners in NYC is the Catholic Church).
Yeah, but while I'm sure the NY Diocese could get a lot for St Pats, the land owned by the Diocese of Brooklyn and Queens isn't worth much. Its a liability, not an asset, because it costs money to maintain, yet you can't close a local Parish without a fight. For example, there are too many parishes in Park Slope, but whose do you close? Closing a parish means political war.
Since the established churches won't sell, new groups have to build their own buildings, which they usually do in residential neighborhoods. This is a big land use issue, with race, class, ethnic tension, and worst of all parking involved.
Speaking of Catholic Charities of B&Q, after my wife and I had a house and enough in the bank, we figured we ought to start doing our social duty, and sent Catholic Charities a check. It absolutely blew them away. They neither solicited or received hardly any donations from anyone! All the money comes from government contracts. So they've tapped into the social service money machine as well.
[This is a big land use issue, with race, class, ethnic tension, and worst of all parking involved.]
Heh heh, only in New York is parking a hotter issue than race or ethnicity :-)
I just printed out the Metrolink journals and I am for the idea? I think that this idea would be better than the MTA 2Av subway plan. The only flaw I see in this thing would be NIMBYism. Especially in Queens and probably in Bklyn. What do you think are the pros and cons of MetroLink?
3TM
34St. Transfer to the J and Z across the platform making express stops. The M16 and M34 up on the street level. Fulton St bound P making local stops. The next local stop will be 28St. Step in and Stand clear of the closing doors please..........
My favorite plan is RUE4the subway. That's the one I had in my sig. Now my pet project is ROYAL ISLAND. Maybe the RIRR would be better serviced, and the RIE would have less traffic. The East River east of Randalls Island could become the Royal Island Sound. And what would achieve this? The Long Royal Canal.
i'd like an explanation of the difference between Fanning the brake handle to Lapping.. I prefer to use small maneuvers of the brake handle which i feel give a smoother more comforable stop ...
Fanning is a rapid sequence of full-apply/full-release motions. It will use up air rapidly and cause jerky stops. The method you mentioned (small maneuvers) is what we teach at Seashore on self-lapping brakes. Of course on "straight air" it's a bit more complicated, as you must lap the brakes manually.
By the way, "fanning" the brakes is just as bad when driving an air brake equipped motor vehicle. When I was a school bus instructor, we showed our students how the air reservoir depletes rapidly when the brakes are fanned; the "lollipop" comes down, the buzzer sounds, and eventually, the emergency brakes apply at 60 lbs. Passengers tend to be thrown about too - also not a good thing!
/*By the way, "fanning" the brakes is just as bad when driving an air brake equipped motor vehicle. When I was a school bus instructor, we
showed our students how the air reservoir depletes rapidly when the brakes are fanned; the "lollipop" comes down, the buzzer sounds, and
eventually, the emergency brakes apply at 60 lbs. Passengers tend to be thrown about too - also not a good thing! */
So *that's* what those little red lollypop things are for!!! I always wondered but never was able to find out....
I have not seen a lolly pop warning flag on a bus in 25 years Thanks for the memories. I had forgoten about them.
Do they still use them in your states?
The "lollipops" are officially called "wig-wags."
Even new school buses have them. I still visit my friends at Pierce Coach Line in Roslyn every now and then to see/drive the new equipment.
I didn't know that school busses even had brakes. The next time you see a noisy group of kids on the subway (NO, don't look for me in one, I won't be there) just think about what they could be riding in instead.
Those are still on the newer buses. I see them but cant get close enough to read the fine print on the handle. What do they do anyway?
They seem to be connected to the ceiling.
Tough world we live in when there are people fanning the brakes but fortunately in the railroads, you are given a practical. In NJT, I would have had an Amtrak road foreman with a cup of coffee on the console filled 1/8 inch below the rim of the cup. You were required to make smooth and accurate station stops without spilling the coffee. The NYCTA school car TSSs state they don't appreciate those who fan the brakes but since the training is so cheaply shortened, I'd bet money that the TSSs are drinking the coffee before they put the cup on the console, that is if they would do a test like that at all. One of the worst "fan fan man" I know has over 15 years as a T/O. The TA just doesn't give a damn if you crawl to the ten car marker because of the 5 minute lateness window involved in making the train look on time.
A Motor Instructor informed the reason for so many brake problems is due to fanning the brakes causing faster wear of the apply/release magnets which she attests to since it was one her bads habits while pounding the road... NO names will be mentioned please please...
Is there anyone who posts on SubTalk planning on going to the big Railroadiana Show in Gaithersburg this coming weekend?
I didn't know about it, but I now live in Bethesda, MD - I'll try to make it there.
Wayne
It's on Sunday, November 7th, and will be held at the Montgomery County Fairgrounds starting at 9AM. I think the admission is $6.00.
Per PATH's Director:
they are planning on submitting a ****proposal**** for new cars which will result in the PA-1 to PA-3 cars being retired and the PA-4 (the 800 series Numbers) being overhauled to A/C propulsion. They are not sure of seating arrangements and they might have CCTV. NO PLANS YET! so dont ask, Please!!
They (PA-5) will have 3 sets of doors and will pretty much resemble the PA-4 due to clearance profile issues. (A PATH car will run on the IRT but IRT cars can***not*** run on PATH due to truck and profile issues. In fact, when PATH runs Sperry Rail Cars they can only use a speicifc car-some others have gotten stuck in the tunnels. PATH cars also have a different truck arrangement
I'm wondering what the maximum possible length of the Third Avenue El trains was ... It is the opinion of one of our distinguished
list posters that the usual length was five cars... However when
I rode the El from Manhattan to the Bronx, I seem to remember
that some trains were longer than five cars...
Does anyone have a copy of the fairly recent book on the Third
El handy? If so, would he/she take a look at the pix, and see
if there were any trains longer than five cars?
At any rate, no matter how long the trains were, I enjoyed
riding them in the summer in both Manhattan and the Bronx, versus the Manhattan part of the Lexington Ave. subway....
Best wishes to all...
Morton Belcher
All of the stations in the Bronx were equipped to handle trains that were 5 IRT length (51ft) cars long. I doubt the older Manhattan part could handle trains of any greater length.
In Lawrence Stelter's book "By The El", most pictures that show a complete train, seem to be five car trains. There is one picture on page 63 that shows a downtown local that appears to be six cars.
The Q-types, which ran on the 3rd Ave. El from about 1950 until the Manhattan portion was abandoned in 1955, we permanently coupled into sets of 3 cars, so I would guess that they ran as 6-car trains.
One thing to remember, the original El cars (gate cars, MUDC and Q-types) were 48' long, the subway cars (composites, Lo-Vs, R12s, etc.) were 51' long.
-- Ed Sachs
I also checked in the book By The El, and there are 2 places where I could distinguish 6 cars. That book is a very warm book of the el and the streets below.
I also checked a video I have of the last days of the 3rd Ave. L, in which I counted 7 cars on a train that was heading into the city. Most of trains shown had 5 cars or 3 cars. That video, about 5-10 minutes in length is also a very warm account of the el's final days.
I can remember as a kid, the Bronx Park spur of the Third Avenue EL, the EL consisted of five car mixed bag of ancient Low V's and five car trains of R-12 trains.
I don't think there were ever any 5 car trains of R-types on that line, just 4 car trains. I think the R types may have been too heavy for the older sections.
Funny I heard stories of the R12 cars having their dynamic brake disabled for the el. There were a couple of very early numbered such as 5714 for scrap about ten years ago at Coney Island that I found the #5 fuses holders removed from the service panels. The welding car R12s scrapped in '92 that were used for derailments also had the #5 fuses and fuse holders removed. I know because of a fatality, the TWU fought for a rule change mandating an inboard conductor's position, but the TA wrote the bulletin so only when equipment is mixed. Therefore in the IRT, the R12/14 cars ended up on the head end in most cases because they were part of a barn's overall fleet but since the R10s stayed together to make up almost the entire barn's fleet, they never mixed them.
The 3 Avenue Thru-Exp ran with 7 Composites and a few Gates.
The 3 Avenue Lcl-Exp ran with 7 MUDC and a few Composites.
The 3 Avenue Local ran with 4 or 5 MUDC and 3 MUDC during owl.
This was circa 1938.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Lets say for discussion sake, a new commuter railroad system is being built. Now what are the advantages of a 3rd rail system verses a Catenary system. I mean in the areas of maintenace, building the system, and what type of rolling stock can be used.
Also why doesn't MN (on the New Haven line) run Catenary all the way down to GCT?
If a new system were being built? If it had to be electric, it'd be catenary, though I can't think of a commuter system in the US that's electrifying besides Caltrain.
MN used to go right to the junction of the Harlem line with the overhead, but cut it back so that if a train goofs the switchover, it won't tie up traffic. And the wires below mount Vernon were really bad too I think. I doubt they could run overhead in all the way due to clearances in GCT. Given the complexity of the M-2, which probbly translates to high costs to maintain, plus lower reliability, I'd sassume if they COULD do it, they would have already.
#rd rail might be a bit less to keep going, and maybe to install, but you lose out becauser you need substations everywhere - the LIRR has them every mile or so. Metro-North's New Haven line has one every 10 miles. That's an amazing cost savings. Also, overhead allows you nice high voltages, which means punchy equipment, though it's slightly heavier. And it's more standard, for what it's worth.
Here's something to ponder - what if the LIRR was done on the PRR's standard 11kv system? Would they get GG-1s? P-5s? Would the entire system get wired? Would we have Silverliners? Catenary only M-2s? Would it still be 25hz, or would they have changed over to 60hz?
In short, how do you think the system would be different? The same?
Oooo that sounds like a homework assignment....
Catenary usually works out cheaper and is now the standard for all new UK electrificaion projects except where exisitng systems are extended. Having said that extesions and replacements are being fitted with an alloy conductor rail which I believe cuts down the need for so many sub stations.
Simon
Swindon UK
Restricting access to the ROW is also a consideration
In subway or rappid transit service areas it is easier to keep people and critter off the ROW. In suburban service it is not so easy.
I expect that is why Chicago has not converted all of the yellow line to allow interchange of equipment on all lines.
I hope the yelow lives on though because it is the only North Shore Canteary still up and running
Restricting access to the ROW is also a consideration
In subway or rappid transit service areas it is easier to keep people and critters off the ROW. In suburban service it is not so easy.
I expect that is why Chicago has not converted all of the yellow line to allow interchange of equipment on all lines.
I hope the yelow lives on though because it is the only North Shore Canteary still up and running
Clearance problems prevent the extension of catenary not only into GCT and the Park Ave. tunnel but also at a number of overpasses in the Bronx. A New Haven train with its pantograph up would not fit through Fordham station, for example.
If this is a poll, I'll vote for third rail. At night, in the winter, with a light coating of sleet on the third rail, the electrical displays that a moving train produces are not soon forgotten.
Realistically, though, I believe that higher speeds are possible with catenary, so I suppose that choice would prevail.
Would it be worth gradually shifting the LIRR, and the Hudson and Harlem lines, to catenary so they could interchange, as the RPA would like? How much would that cost, relative to the usual maintenance and replacement of third rails over time? Posters imply catenary is fairly inexpensive to install, and a reduction in power stations would reduce operating costs.
Why are more power stations needed for 3rd rail? Are they that much less efficent than overheads?
With DC its not the power stations you need, its the substations. The main reason you need many many substations is because DC can not be transformed. A higher voltage electrical current looses less to resistance as it travels so it travels further and more juce gets to where you need it. Also with higher voltages you can get away with useing a thinner conducting conduit which further decreases resistance. Because DC can not be transformed it can not be transmitted at high voltages. A GG-1 took in 11,000 Volts of AC and transformed it to about 340 for the motors. With a DC locomotive it is WYTIWYG (T=touch) and the DC can't be much over 3000 Volts because the motors with go "ZAP-HISS-SMOKE!!!" However 3rd rail DC was used because 1) even with all the substations it was still cheaper than overhead catenary and 2) DC electronics are simpler and before rectifiers you needed straight DC.
Just out of interest, to my knowledge 3rd rail is associated with DC, and overhead with DC or AC. Has anyone ever experimented or implemented 3rd rail with AC?
It's always DC. I believe there's an actual reason why it can't work (safely) on AC. I read in a book somewhere that the highest voltage ever used on third rail was about 2,500 volts, which was used for about 1 year on some interurban system out west. It was NOT sucessful, and had large problems with arcing, corrosion, zapping things/people, and more. 600 - 800 volts seems to be the popular range, though Bart uses 1000, and supposedly, a few european systems use 1,500.
I may be in need of a physics lesson here, if so, please be patient.
As I understand it, in order to move a train, you either need a high voltage or a high current electricity supply. High voltage supplies are more likely to jump across gaps, and so are ruled out for 3rd rail. Hence, a 3rd rail supply has to be low voltage/high current. This means that frequent substations are needed, and a thick conductor rail, otherwise you either get unworkable voltage drop, or you melt the conductor rail. HOWEVER, I seem to recall that for any given current/voltage, the heating/voltage drop for AC is less problematic than for DC. Also (again for unfathomable technical reasons) Europe seems to have decided that AC motors are good, DC motors are bad, so that DC supplied trains are often fitted with inverters and AC motors these days.
So, here is my next question: would a low voltage AC 3rd rail supply be possible in theory, if so, could it be made to be in any way superior to low voltage 3rd rail DC?
They don't do AC in Europe, do they? I thought they are still in DC land. All my friends accross the ocean keep commenting on how "novel" and "radical" modern AC traction is.
"AC" traction, and the means of transmission are 2 totally unrelated things. AC traction is induction motors and inverters. That's new stuff.
You can have DC traction on an AC powered system(As the E-33/44/50/60, AEM-7, Silverliners, M-2s, etc have). You can have AC traction on an AC system, or you can have DC on DC, or DC on AC. AC traction is new, AC *transmission* is old (1908 - New Haven RR).
BTW - the TGV can run at 25kv 50hz AC, 3kv DC, 1.5kv DC, 750v DC, and 15kv 16 2/3 hz. Though not all trains support all those modes.
I was refering to AC traction.
I was fascinated with the plethora of items concerning old TV shows which permeated this site the past few days, and I was wondering if any of you out there are old enough or know some people in their late 50's or early 60's who remember the great radio days of the late l940's when radio was king and TV hadn't made its appearance except in a few homes. What does this have to do with the subway? Well, all of you know I'm the Sea Beach Man, but only when we were going someplace. On Sunday evenings when we had to go home I wasn't so particular. I just wanted to get home as fast as I could, and if the Brighton Express or the West End was faster or more convenient so be it. Why?
Because on Sunday evenings I had to hear Sam Spade, private detective, starring Howard Duff. That was my all time favorite show and I must have loved it more than the subway because I gave up the Sea Beach for Sam Spade.
I used Wildroot Cream Oil, because Sam Spade did, and it sponsored his show.
But your name's not Charlie.
Rim Shot!:>)
Karl B. So did I. Maybe you remember the jingle.
Oh, you better get Wild Root Cream Oil Charlie
It keep your hair in trim.
It is non-alcoholic Charlie
It's made with soothing Lanolin
You better get Wild Root Cream Oil Charlie
Start using it today
And you'll have a hard time Charlie
Keeping all those gals away.
Get Wildroot right away.
HOW ABOUT THAT?
I can't believe that you remembered every word of that jingle!!!
Hey Karl: You ought to see my memory of baseball games 50-55 years ago. Uncanny. However, I could be looking at one of my students and just plain forget their names. Wierd. But I'm a strange bird, and my pleasant memories I wouldn't give up for all the money anyone could give me. Sam Spade was my favorite radio show, and as I said I would even ride the West End and Brighton Beach instead of my beloved Sea Beach if it would get home in time for Sunday night's Sam Spade.
Were you in New York the day that WWII ended? I was out in Brooklyn and the whole borough went wild. The celebrations when our beloved Dodgers won the pennant did not hold a candle to the day the war ended. The motormen on the el trains were even sounding their whistles. My dad was convinced that they would get in trouble for doing that. My memory of fifty years ago is much better than of what happened five or ten years ago. They say it has something to do with old age.
My personal favorite radio show was The Lone Ranger, and yes, I bought Cheerios too, since it was the show's sponsor. I can remember when they spelled it Cheerioats!
I remember some soaps, but I can t remember their names, Jack Benny followed by Phil Harris and Alice Faye, Amos and Andy(played by white people) Gunsmoke, some will come back to me if people remind me. We got our first TV For my 6th birthday at ZIM on 86th St near Bay Parkway, a 10 inche Admiral with radio and record player
TV did not arrive at our house until 1952 in the form of a 17 inch Admiral table model. Admiral must have sold a lot of TVs in those days. I'll bet yours was a lot earlier.
We got ours in February, 1950. They were televising UN Meetings then. Boy was that boring. The Soviet Ambassador was Jacob Malik. I despised him from day one.
When we got ours in 1952, WPIX, Channel 11 had a show at 5:30 every night called Six Gun Playhouse. They showed old westerns starring guys like Bob Steele, Ken Maynard, Hoot Gibson and Ray "Crash" Corrigan. I always wanted to eat dinner by the TV which made my Mom very unhappy!
I remember that now. Thanks for jogging my memory. Bob Steele never wore a neckerchief, I rememeber that, too. By the way, for a long time my nickname was Crash. Many of my friends called me that, though I haven't been known by that nickname in 30 years.
Bob Steele had a lifetime career in the westerns. He went from playing the hero in the 1930's to the most despicable of bad guys in the 1950's and 60's. I always confused "Crash" Corrigan with Allan "Rocky" Lane, and that is strange, because the only thing they had in common was that they both wore two guns.
6 Gun Playhouse, oh yea I remember that, Ken Maynard had a brother named Bob Maynard who also made movies. I got to know Ken quite well in the late 50s in North Hollywood, his son and I played Baseball together for 2 years in High School and Sandlot(Jeff)
Try Search for Tomorrow and Love of Life. Do they sound familiar? Besides Sam Spade, the other radio shows I loved were Time for Buelah, Inspector Hartstone of the Death Squad, and the FBI In Peace and War.
Hartstone was on Tuesdays, FBI on Thursdays, and Buelah on Wednesdays.
The FBI was sponsored by Lava Soap.
Nothing gets hands cleaner and faster than Lava Soap, that's L A V A.
LAVA LAVA
DUN DUN DUN DUN DUNT DA DUN
DUNT DA DON DUN DA DUN DUN DA DEN
DUM DUM DUM DUM DEM DA DEM.
Boy I miss Harry and Burt Piel (Bob and Ray)
"You certainly have a flair for the dramatic, Burt".
Karl: Believe it or not, my favorite cowboy was the Lone Ranger. Not Roy Rogers, or Hopalong Cassady or Gene Autry, but Clayton Moore's Lone Ranger. I even wore a mask when we played Cowboys and Indians. As far as WW II ending, I remember when Truman announced Japan's agreement to surrender on August 14 (15th in Japan) We celebrated with parties, picnics and foot races. What I remember was that I was the 2nd fastest kid my age on the block. A Mulatto boy named Forrest was the fastest. He was a nice kid and didn't have a father. A lot of rumors were floating around about his family background but to us he was our friend. He always beat me in races, EXCEPT on that day. For some reason I beat him three straight times that day. I only beat him twice again later and he must have beaten me 50 times.
Did you know that Clayton Moore was in a whole bunch of those 12 Chapter Serials that we used to go to the movies to see on saturday afternoons. Most of the time he was a bad guy, either head bad guy or the number 2 bad guy. I think he got to play a good guy in only one or two serials. It sure made his career when he landed the Lone Ranger part in the TV series.
Did you know that most of those old serials are now available on videotape in two cassette sets? They are complete with all the chapters and the cliffhanger at the end of each chapter, and they are fairly reasonably priced too!
Karl: Like Rocket Man and something of the Moon. Moore played a heavy in all of those. What I liked about Clayton Moore was that to me he bore a resemblance to Duke Snider, though Snider was a little younger.Snider was my hero on the Dodgers from 1949 on. Would you know if they still have available "Pirates of the High Seas"? (1951).That was my all time favorite serial. It starred Buster Crabbe. I remember Chapter One was called Mystery Mission, and the final chapter called Diamonds from the Sea. I would love to purchase that if it is available.
Clayton Moore made "Radar Men from the Moon" after he quit the Lone Ranger in a salary dispute. He soon went back to being The Lone Ranger and never strayed again. In "Radar Men" he got to play 2nd bad guy to Roy Barcroft who was the King of the Bad Guys. It was one of my favorite serials, and I have a copy of it.
I don't know "Pirates of the High Seas" and as a result suspect that maybe it is one of those that was never available on videotape.
Karl B. So did I. Maybe you remember the jingle.
Oh, you better get Wild Root Cream Oil Charlie
It keep's your hair in trim.
It is non-alcoholic Charlie
It's made with soothing Lanolin
You better get Wild Root Cream Oil Charlie
Start using it today
And you'll have a hard time Charlie
Keeping all those gals away.
Get Wildroot right away.
HOW ABOUT THAT?
Last Friday I went to BWI Rail Station to take a photo of a newly-painted AEM7.
The photo is here. The painting scheme is called the Acela livery.
I talked to an engineer and he said the look was awful. Hopefully it would be better if Acela logos were installed.
Chaohwa
TOO PLAIN!
My AEM-7's are done no justice in that getup. A little blue would make it nicer.
They have some cars done in Acela colors- there is a touch of light blue with the Acela logo. Down at the bottom is a thin red sripe.
Actually the cars are very futuristic. I like the light-blue color.
As for the thin red stripe, it is reflective.
Chaohwa
I'm not sure I'd call that a scheme. It looks like they cheaped out with grey painted aluminum (sorta like PATH's treatments of the PA1-2 series which used to be metallic looking light blue painted aluminum).
-Dave
11/04/00
Looks like the paint job wasn't finished or was inspired by the early CSX "stealth" pain scheme.
Bill Newkirk
Last Night around 7:30 PM a Northbound No.2 Train was stuck outside Bronx Park East because of a down Tree. Then that stoped No.2 Service along the White Plains Road from E 180 TO E 241 St. Then Control Rerouted the No.2 Trains to Dyre Ave. Well at about 8PM the 17:00 Flatbush to Dyre was leaving Gun Hill Road when tree fell in front of his train. Luckly the Train Operator Stopped in time. Around 9 PM there was limited No.2 and No.5 service to E 241 and Dyre Ave.
Did Anyone get stuck in this?
I was listening to this over my scanner. The TSSs were sent running to restore service. If I recall correctly, 18:05 out of Flatbush was stopped by a tree at Gun Hill.
Things got cleaned up pretty quickly, and TSSs checked the Dyre Line north and southbound to make sure things were clear.
-Stef
Furthermore, at least one northbound #2 from Flatbush was turned at 149th St and 3rd Av at Jackson Av Middle.
-Stef
11/04/99
Although this is a rarity , all you need is one incident and the line grinds to a halt. I noticed when observing out the front railfan windows on the Brighton and Sea Beach lines that trees overhanging the R.O.W. are potential service stoppers on very windy days. The TA could adapt existing flat cars with a cherry picker attachment so tree pruning can be simplified. And much like the trucks that landscapers use to grind branches , a similar car could also be adapted for wood chipping and storage of wood chips. You need not build one from the ground costing big bucks , but also one such specialty consist would be needed to cover the NYCTA.
Bill Newkirk
I was just on ADTranz's site and saw something interesting about the proposed diesel light rail system for South Jersey.
Here is a picture of the proposed cars. They were awarded to design the entire system.
Sounds great, right?
BTW, I saw no mention of the M-4's anywhere on the site, yet some older metro cars were shown. Did SEPTA refuse?
Were you really serious about sounding great? This line will run through our township here in Delran. I am all for the light rail but I can't wait to see how it is going to be sharing trackage with freight trains. The deal is light rail has the tracks till 10:00PM then the freights get there chance from 10:00PM till 6:AM. Sounds pretty neat don't you think? Not to mention the ADtranz nightmare.
GREAT IDEA! Finally some creative sharing of rail lines as in Europe. Hopefully the FRA aka Rail Obstruction Administration doesn't put a hamper on this.
Been there, done that. The MTA in Baltimore has been sharing the Central Light Rail Line with freight trains at night. Trains show up after Midnight, when the LRV's have gone beddy-bye. The trains are CSX, former ConRail, and haul stone from the quarries at Cockeysville to Sparrows Point. The trains are usually 2 GP-38's (MU'ed through a 20 car stone train) and 20 or so stone jennies.
On many mornings the stone train leaves Cockeysville at 5:45 AM. The First LRV leaves Hunt Valley at 5:15 AM. So, the stone train just gets mixed right into the early AM peak, right along with the LRV's.
It really shakes up the early commuters when, at Cold Spring station, the stone train roars through doing about 40, followed 5 minutes later by the southbound LRV.
Amazingly, neither train or LRV is ever delayed, and the stone train gets off the CLRL at 28th Street.
Oh, yes, they also do it in San Diego.
Oh yay! Another 3 year late delivery.
Humph, commuter rail is the way to go. I can get a light rail experiance riding a bus. This whole Camden-Trenton thing is one big Boondogle anyway. Oooo, that Trenton-Camden commuter corridor sure is busy. Why don't they create a line where people might actually use it like Glassboro-Camden or Pemberton-Camden? I mean if you want to see the definition of "railroad town" just look anywhere along those 2 corridors. One town built right after another all along the railroad. Add in the fact that commuting from those areas is an absolute nightmare makes you wonder why the lines haven't been built already. How could anybody be against rail lines on those two routes. PTACO doubled property values along its line. The Camden-Trenton line is a poor compromise that is doomed to failure. If I had a billion dollars I'd build a 3rd rail electrified line from Glassboro to Camden, run it with rebuilt FL-9's and ACMU's cast off from Met-N and then build a tunnel under the Delaware just north of Woodbury so some trains could run through Greenwitch Yard, past a Sports Complex station (no more waiting on the Walt Whitman) and connect with Amtrak at ARSENAL for a trip into 30th Station.
I've always wanted to see some type of rail tunnel between SJ and Philly, particularly somwhere in South Philly(like along Washington Avenue).
A PATCO extension or trans-Delaware River light rail line could boost rail ridership.
BTW, what would you think of an extension of PATCO in Philadelphia to, say, U of P area or 30th Street?
Hee - that's kinda what they said back in the (20's?) when the whole
system was drawn up.
How about this one: PATCO would be extended from 16th Street under Locust until 22nd, and turn north there. It would go under 22nd Street to Pennsylvania Avenue, and utilize the abandoned ROW that is now fresh fields etc. It would turn north under 29th Street, and follow an underground or elevated ROW until it reaches the Chestnut Hill lines, and follow them until the end. As far as I am concerned, commuter rail is inadequate, and they should by Light, if not heavy rail.
11/06/99
This is my opinion on the NJT South Jersey LRT. It seems as geniune as a $4.00 bill! This country is currently undergoing "Light Rail fever" , a renaissance of the reborn "trolley'. I feel that the South Jersey project has flaws and seems to be a "rush job". The plan doesn't have the determination of the HBLR system in North Jersey. Starting March of 2000 this will be reality, When will the South Jersey line become reality if ever??
Bill Newkirk
NJT can't make up its mind in South Jersey but it wants to make a political statement that it hasn't forgotten SJ with all the work and money it plans to spend in N(orth)J. NJT's buses don't fill in rush hours, even the once-popular express and limited runs, so I'm not sure how the Camden-Trenton light rail line will fare when the once heavily-travelled Routes 409/419 bus routes are having no trouble doing the job. SJ really needs more PATCO extensions but they will be too expensive, and PATCO doesn't seem interested.
Agreed. The next time NJT cries for federal subsidies, I'll remind them about how they wasted money on this corridor
I remember watching on cable television a while back about a movie where two young punks held hostage a group of subway riders in a subway car.The movie takes place in the 1960,s.In fact the subway car in use was a 1939 World's Fair Low V subway train.The movie also had shots of the train as it went through the Woodlawn line at night.Can someone tell me the name of this movie? Or does anyone on the board remember the movie?
The movie was "The Incident". It was filmed in 1967, I believe. I have yet to see it at any video store, though someone else on this board did mention it was able to be special ordered somehow.
It's available thru the Subway Bibliography.
-dave
Please don't all jump at me at once. I know a railfan should know this, the answer is probably very obvious,BUT, at 46 yrs old I don't remember trolleys, (other than the trackless ones with rubber wheels that they still had in Bklyn when I was a toddler) so here goes:
How did trolleys switch tracks? I remember when there were alot of tracks left in the city but I don't remember seeing switches. Did the motorman get off and throw a switch, or was there a type of steering wheel? Don't laugh, I honestly don't know.
P.S. I was going to ask that at Branford but forgot.
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Trolleys switch tracks using switches (or turnouts, to be technical). Where mainline railroad switches have two moveable points, in paved streets there is typically only one point. Where two routes diverge, the point may be electrically powered. Whether the point is thrown or not depends on if the motorman entered the switch with "power on" or "power off". Where the switch is not powered, the motorman is obliged to leave his post and manually throw the switch with his handy switch iron, a cast iron device that moves the point. You didn't ask, but a device in the trolley wire (a pan?) guides the trolley pole in the required direction.
In Philadelphia, electric switches on the line poles on the streets
were fairly common.
Some systems now use radio controlers mounted in the cars. If the switch needs to be activated the operator stops hits the button and the switch operates. ( like a garage door opener) In the tail of the car is an anteanea to return it to normal.
Didn't the PCC have a switch on the console for something like this?
Many PCC cars do have this feature. What the button does, is momentarily allow a very high current pulse through the trolley wire system, which triggers the turnout throw solenoid on the track.
Actually, the Track Switch on a PCC operates a relay that sends 600 volts through a roughly 4000 ohm resistor through the pole to ground. This creates a current draw roughly equal to what a standard car draws with one point of power and the brakes applied sightly. The electric switch relay (in the box on the pole)is set to ignore the current draw of Air Compressors and MG sets (on PCC cars).
PCC's have the TSW (Track) switch because the operator cannot know exactly how much power is being drawn by the car. The TSW switch allows SAFE operation of electric switches.
Incendently, the electric switch is usually set up so that "pulling power" throws the point to the diverging route, "drifting" throws the point to the normal (i.e. straight) route.
To keep the point set to the same route, the motorman/operator must perform the same action as if setting it himself.
The device is called a frog, just like the central portion of a RR turnout.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just came across an combination LIRR & Prospect Park and Coney Island Railroad ticket. "Coney Island to Long Island City"
The following description is from the person I bought it from:
EARLY Long Island Railroad Ticket # 21423. "In consideration of reduced rates this ticket is good only during the Excursion Season of the year which issued for One Continuous Passge. No stop-over allowed." Never been punched, but it was torn in 1/2 and was taped together. Overall condition poor. 2-3/4" x 1-7/16th.
I'm not interested in selling this item but I would be interested in trading it for any item from the Brooklyn, Flatbush & Coney Island Rwy; the Brooklyn & Brighton Beach Railroad; the Coney Island Elevated Railway; or the Sea View Railroad. If interested contact me and I'll provide you with a picture of the item.
Got off the front car of a southbound #1 at Penn this evening, descended a flight of steps to go to the LIRR and saw frosted over large windows revealing what may be remains of the car drop-off area from the old station. does anyone have any details?? the ceilings inside resemble the tiles in the Oyster Bar at GCT. Small sightings like this makes me wish I was 20 years older and got to see the original.
Thanks for any info.
There's an article in a recent issue of Preservation, the magazine of the National Trust for Historic Preservation, about plans to re-create the old Penn Station using the old post office building designed by the same architects. Excellent article if you're able to get your hands on it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
It's not "recreating" the old station at all, but building a new station inside a totally different structure (albeit one designed by the same architects). The proposal is clearly NOT the old Penn Station, but a mix of very modern (huge shell-like glass & metal canopy thing behind the classic building) laid over and around the original Farley Post Office, which I think is now a NYC landmark (in reaction to the demolition of Penn Sta. itself).
There are various websites w/pix of the model, including one that was referenced on this site awhile back. Can't find it right now.
It's not "recreating" the old station at all, but building a new station inside a totally different structure (albeit one designed by the same architects).
Kinda sorta...
As I understand it, the Farley Post Office has a number of design elements that are very similar to the old Penn Station. Also, a significant part of the project is tracking down actual remnants of the old Penn Station itself, restoring them, and incorporating them into the new design. This was the main focus of the article in Preservation.
Regardless of the semantics, it looks to be a very impressive project. Hell, if they can pull this off, maybe someday we will be able to re-create Louis Sullivan's Chicago Stock Exchange Building. The demolition of that masterpiece stands as Chicago's counterpart to Penn Station in the sad saga of wiping out architectural treasures for the sake of some banal new project.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I'm sure the new Penn Station will be completed just in time for AMTRAK service to be terminated. After all, profitable or not, you don't think the GOP is going to let the Northeast have a railroad if their states don't have one, do you?
Actually, without knowing exact details, I gather this is why Amtrak usually gets funded year after year, albeit at lower levels than requested: Because there are JUST enough routes to Republican regions that constituent pressure from those regions to keep Amtrak sways their senators' votes. I believe there are a couple of Amtrak routings that have NO viable justification other than that their senators are key to funding renewals.
That said, of course, there is the mandate to be self-supporting that the system isn't going to be able to escape. Unless Congress changes its mind. Stranger things have happened. If the US of A has high-speed trains as good as those of Europe and Japan, perception may change -- I think most Americans' view of Amtrak now is a slightly nicer (but more money-losing) version of Greyhound, for old people & poor people. Maybe, just maybe, Acela will make it fashionable.
Which is also why I think wasting X hundred million on Penn is a bad idea. 5 years from now, Amtrak will likely not be around - though maybe the NEC will become Acela corporation. I don't know. Guilford wants (wanted?) to buy it outright, but I suspect they see it for freight value as opposed to passenger. How the NEC gets divided up, what happens of the electrification, passnger service, etc, will be very much up in the air. It's the only part of the system where amtrak comes close to making money (AFAIK). I've also heard amtrak wants to get into the freight business themselfs - which is legally a grey area.
After 2002, does Amtrak still have running rights over freight routes? Or can the owners of those routes refuse to let Amtrak run over them?
In any case, I don't see amtrak surviving very long. I don't see Acela making any major difference. I think people in this country, particularly Acela's intended audiance (lets face it - they're not aiming it toward soccer moms), know the difference between a faster NEC and the real thing. Sure ridership will go up. How much, and how much it STAYS up, it subject to debate. And it doesn't help anything besides the DC -> NY -> Boston run.
Speaking of which, has Bombardier, etc, made an announcement about when Acela service will be able to start? They were supposed to this week I thought...
I also don't like the new Penn plan. The good idea would be to DEMOLISH Madison Square Garbage as it deserves to be (build Madison Square Garden in the space over the yards on Eleventh). Then build a true homage to the original. The designers of Madison Square Garbage are to be incarcerated in a maximum security prison for the rest of their days.
We import over 50% of our oil, we can't reduce our pollution levels because we are so dependent on the automobile. We won't ratify the global warming treaty, we keep buying big gas guzzling cars. So what is our leaders response? Shut down Amtrak, the last vestige of intercity surface public transit in the US, don't build any more nuclear power plants, and reduce taxes on gasoline and cars and raise transit fares. We are more dependent on foreign oil today than during the energy crisis of the 1970's. The automobile has won!
Most Amtrak trains use what to power them? Uranium? Beer?
Most Amtrak trains use what to power them? Uranium? Beer?
Doggie Doo
A large percentage of Amtrak trains are electrically powered. Electricity can be generated using US coal, nuclear power, or solar for that matter. Where oil is used the trains get more passenger-miles/ gallon then SUV's
No, the only electric trains Amtrak has are on the NEC. Off the NEC, it's all diesel.
Amtrak's had 20 years to improve service. My NY to Hartford train is good 20+ minutes slower today then back then, and there's no sign it's going to get any faster. Amtrak runs hopelessly useless routes. amtrak run long distance trains. They have a LOVE for long distance trains, and conrinue to run them, even though that style of service is on the decline EVERYWHERE else in the world. They run a SLOW service. It's mostly diesel. Sure amtrak runs on a shoestring budget - they've yet to give a reason to give them any money.
Amtrak does not work. It's is a failure.
On top of that - it will SLOW any future progress in intercity rail. Why? Because ANY proposal that comes up will have a powerful argument against it, namely, look what happned with Amtrak. The only way that'll change is if you can convince congress and the american public that intercity rail and Amtrak are not mutually exclusive. Good luck. The FRA / Dot / Amtrak wasting money on useless projects like turbine locomotives (They don't work, they WON'T work) isn't helping.
The Automobile didn't win. It's just that Amtrak isn't good enough to get people out of their cars. Americans aren't dumb, they're not tied to their cars like everyone thinks (look at the recent sucess of light rail in portland, and the growth of commuter rail in California of all places). They just take the most painless route between A and B.
"There's something about a train that's magic" just isn't working.
It's time to try something else.
As for nuclear power? Last poll I heard of sad something like 70% of the population was for it.
Just not in THEIR backyard.
Amtrak a failure? C'mon! Not as big a success as it might be, because there isn't enough money for new equipment, but hardly a failure. The last several times I've travelled Amtrak - not just on the Corridor, mind you - there were ZERO empty seats for most of my journey, and one nominally reserved-seat-only Corridor train had standees from Baltimore to Newark.
Someone else, in another part of this thread, also made the statement that Amtrak cost 2-3 times what the bus charged. That's untrue. Amtrak's fare from Richmond to Newark is $12 LESS than the bus, unless you pick a Florida service train, in which case it's $1 more. Other routes are similar - Amtrak ranges from 15% cheaper to 10% more for basic coach accomodations on non-premium trains. Metroliner service is substantially more than a bus, as are sleeper accomodations, but that's comparing apples to oranges. And Amtrak offers by far the best ride of the two.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Amtrak runs hopelessly useless routes. amtrak run long distance trains. They have a LOVE for long distance trains, and conrinue to run them, even though that style of service is on the decline EVERYWHERE
else in the world.]
Remember that many Congressmen insist that Amtrak run trains through their districts.
"I think most Americans' view of Amtrak now is a slightly nicer (but more money-losing) version of Greyhound, for old people & poor people. Maybe, just maybe, Acela will make it fashionable."
Well considering that Amtrak is 2 to 3 times more expensive than Greyhound for the same routes . . . I'd say that perception about being for poor people is wrong.
As for Acela, I hope the staggering amount of money they are pouring into advertising does something for ridership.
Yes, you stumbled over one of the pieces of old Penn that was never "renovated."
There are a few places within the Bus Terminal that Penn Station is today that you can find the old Penn Station. In the Amtrak wating area the floor was scuffed that you could see the old glass brick tiles from the orgianl station. I don't know if upon this last rebuild (a.k.a. patch job) it is still there or not.
The floor has been covered with a new layer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just posted yesterday...some of the old Penn Station that's still around.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/STREET%20SCENES/Penn%20Station/penn.html
Hey, maybe some train buffs who also happen to be lawyers can answer this one. I've visually impaired, and as far as I know, when a new structure is built or updated, it MUST be wheelchair accessible. The rebuilt Franklin Avenue Shuttle has all stations wheelchair accessible accept Botanic Gardens. Prospect Park wasn't changed at all, so I can see how they got away with it there. But I don't get Botanic. Isn't this a LAW?
Train Buff Headquarters
Botanic Gardens can be considered a remodeled older station, not a new station. Therefore, it is exempt from ADA regulations. Park Place is a completely new structure and therefore is subject to the ADA.
Prospect Park was not rebuilt because it was rebuilt a few years back when all the Brighton Line stations were redone. Also Prosepect park was a remodel so is still excempt from ADA being built many moons ago originaly.
I'm not saying that the premise that Prospect Park is exempt from ADA because it was rebuilt and not a new station, but...
The station is scheduled to go under contract to get ADA accessibility (probably elevators) in 2000.
David
[Prospect Park was not rebuilt because it was rebuilt a few years back when all the Brighton Line stations were redone. Also Prosepect park was a remodel so is still excempt from ADA being built many moons ago originaly.]
Should have engaged brain before letting fingers fly:
I'm not saying that the premise that Prospect Park is exempt from ADA because it was rebuilt and not a new station IS CORRECT OR INCORRECT, but...
The station is scheduled to go under contract to get ADA accessibility (probably elevators) in 2000.
David
Then it would be the only station on the Brighton that would be ADA compliant. Even when they just finished Sheepshead Bay, the did not get rid of the step up into the station from the street.
A fix on the road to ADA but just like my work with 150 Coal fired boilers (exempt from the 70's clean air act) NYCTA Subway is exempt from the ADA unless new construction (and some funded mod's like Prospect Park 2000).
Caught this monthly show on Channel 80 at 8 PM last night.
This month's theme is "Franklin Ave. Shuttle",
- also sub-feature is Capital Spending project with lots of yada yada by Virgial Conway, Larry Reuter, plus a US Senator (that new guy who now likes the Grand Central Access project) & the Brooklyn Boro Pres.
- also some shots of the existing 2nd Ave Stubway
- also the Metro-North Croton-Harmon open house ... looked for the camera to catch some of our Subtalk friends but didn't recongize anyone. Looks like it was a good event, sorry I missed it !
Mr t__:^)
Now I have to watch it tonight on Brooklyn Cablevison 6pm Chn 69...
See if I'm on TV!!!, thanks Thurston
If they really planned to build the "Stubway," I wouldn't mind them showing it. But the truth is they plan to do more studies -- $500 million worth -- then allegedly spend a little on construction, if there is nothing else to do with the money. This is a political game and payoff for consultants, not an investment.
Larry, You will get a big laugh watching the piece on the 2nd Ave Stubway. If you didn't know better you would think that they were actually going to build something their in the near future.
Mr t__:^)
Is this still on public TV for those of us who are cable-deprived?
--Mark
On LI it's on a public access station, #80, every Wednesday at 8 PM. I don't know if 13, 21 or other public stations carry it.
I've found the 1/2 show interesting enough that I would recomend that you expend some effort to try and see it.
P.S. It's is usually a little more interesting, from a subway buff standpoint, then November is.
Mr t__:^)
Hey Mr. T, can you get Transit Transit to play in Boston Boston?
I personally check out Transit Transit on ch. 25 in Manhattan, WNYE, 3:30pm Saturdays. ch. 25 is also carried by Time-Warner cable as, you guessed it, ch 25.
It's not carried by any cable company, any more than channel 2 or channel 5 is carried.
Maybe by the time you read this they'll have updated the highlights page.
You can, however, find the airdates here.
--Mike
How long is the program, I want to set my VCR.
It's half an hour, but the same episode runs all month. Catch it again next week.
--Mike.
Well, folks, it looks as if the southeast corridor light rail line will become reality. Both it and the I-25 expansion referendum were approved by voters on Tuesday. Naturally, Governor Owens is tickled pink; he is a staunch supporter of both. The whole idea was to kill two birds (no, not Redbirds) with one stone and do both projects at once. By widening 19 miles of I-25 all at once, from Broadway to Lincoln Ave. in Douglas County, it will take 7 years instead of 15. There is no doubt it's desperately needed. I-25 through Denver was built in 1958, and has essentially been unchanged since then while the Denver Tech Center has sprung up along the southeast corridor, creating gridlock during rush hours.
Meanwhile, the southwest extension is moving along. Catenary has been strung through the open cut in downtown Littleton. As far as I can tell, there is still no trackwork on the swapover/flyover bridge north of Bellview Ave., but it is in place along the rest of the line. Towers for the catenary have not yet been put in along the central portion of the line. Platforms for three of the five stations are in place.
They should have a referendum on a dedicated tax/toll/fare hike to fund the 2nd Avenue Subway in NY. Oopps, we did that already.
We did? Huh? Am I missing something here?
In the 1950s, a bond was issued to pay for the 2nd Avenue subway, and taxes were used to pay off the bonds. But the subway was not built. The money was used "to rebuild the existing system." But that just means that other money that SHOULD HAVE BEEN used to rebuild the existing system was spent elsewhere.
I wouldn't be surprised if NYC residents might accept a dedicated 0.25% increase in sales tax devoted exclusively to MTA operations, or (since it'd be NYC residents only) bus & subway operations within the MTA.
This is how BART was funded in the SF Bay Area starting in the early Sixties, and I know the residents of Santa Clara County, which voted down the tax, regretted it once the system opened.
I generally don't like the idea of raising taxes, but I think a dedicated tax for NYC buses & subways might appeal to NYC residents. Of course, you'd probably end up having to restrict its use to intra-NYC applications -- so no 7 train to the Meadowlands. Maybe linking SIRT to the WTC stub would appeal .
Excuse me but, BART originally was to be funded from the bond issue. It was only after they had gone thru the first $790 and were nowhere near ready to open that the sales tax was added. Very like the 1968 2nd ave bond fiasco the inflation that was allowed in the seventies ate up the monies without giving us our promised subways.
How come you have to have a referendum and a tax increase to build transit but you could just go out a build a road withou thaving a vote. Sure does seem unfair!
I heard an item on the radio this AM & now have a copy of an article in the DailyNews by reporter Mike Claffey.
Apparently the police have been mailing "alleged" criminals MetroCards. They have Michael J. Fox/Spin City on the back (collectors note ref. #37 from Sept. 1997) but are encoded as Student free cards. This means a special yellow light comes on when they are swiped. The police then grab them using "extreme caution" ... yuck !
The only positive thing I see from all this is that less mommys & daddys will be using junior's student card. I'll be looking at our daily activity to see if any detectable change occurs.
Mr t__:^)
I'd have to say that this ranks as one of the stupidest ideas in history.
There is a potential reduction in adults using student Metrocards due to the potential increased penalty -- the death penalty instead of a small fine.
Yep. If anything, it smacks of civil rights infractions not to mention strong ethical questions.
I'd like to know what rocket scientist at the NYPD thought that one up.
SubDude
Civil rights issues probably won't be significant. Police departments around the country often have run "sting" operations to catch criminals with outstanding warrants ("Congratulations! You have just won a pair of courtside Knicks tickets. Please stop in at One Police Plaza to claim your prize.")
What I'm concerned about is the fact that police may end up confronting dangerous fugitives at subway turnstiles. Crowded places like that are the worst imaginable for potentially violent confrontations.
Or what about mature-looking students who legitimately use student MCs? It's not impossible to imagine one of them getting Diallo'ed by a frightened cop.
Why do so many unfortunate people's names end up becoming verbs?
verbizing :) is a great English tradition.
What about chopping down the 2nd. Ave. el and replacing it with....um....nothing. On the stupidity scale, I'd say that ranks up there with using student fare cards to "catch" murderers. I mean, if you know the address of the fugitive that your sending this free Metrocard to, why not just send a squad car and pick the %$#@& person up.
Thank you Chris R.
Yeah, if they already have the address of whatever lowlife they're looking for, why do they need this "sting" operation using MetroCards? Sounds like just because the technology is there.....you know the rest.
It smacks of unethical behavior to catch criminals (even the worst kind), since this type of entrapment could be used against anyone. Oh, well, just venting alittle....
As always,
SudDude
I hate this thing on so many different levels. It's a waste of money, it puts riders at risk should a violent confrontation become necessary at a crowded turnstile, it smacks of "Big Brotherism" by using computers to track the location of people without their knowledge and finally because any real student who would trip this system off might be sharing a grave next to Mr. Diallo should some cop get a tad too "nervous".
Because they don't have enough evidence for an arrest warrant.
Al Capone killed large numbers of people. He was jailed for tax evasion.
I'm still trying to figure out how the government was able to justify the assertion that Capone had to pay taxes on monies made from a criminal enterprise. Perhaps if we tax muggers, bank robbers and con-artists we might be able to balance the budget.
The federal tax laws, and the state tax laws of those states where I have lived, all explicitly state that income from illegal activities is taxable income and must be reported. The State of North Carolina also had tax stamps at one time that were required to be affixed to each ounce or fraction thereof of marijuana, each gram of heroin or cocaine, and each package (one stamp per tablet) of other substances such as LSD. When they busted someone for drug dealing they could then also bust them for tax evasion and lock them up longer. Having non-tax-paid substances became a felony, so even though marijuana possession was a misdemeanor per se, the tax evasion part made it hard time. (If your dealer actually paid the tax, however [yeah, right] then you were only slapped on the wrist for weed.)
The stamps are collector's items now. There are only two known usages that have made it into private hands (the stamps were pasted on the official documents filed with the courts after a dealer was arrested, convicted, and forced to pay up, and somehow the records were shipped out for scrap after being microfilmed rather than being shredded). Some unused copied have also made it out. The stamps are no longer being used, but the law is still on the books.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Because they don't have enough evidence for an arrest warrant."
Sorry if this sounds like a stupid question.
If they don't have the evidence to arrest them at home, how can they arrest them at a turnstile?
Is there a different set of rules in play?
They'd arrest them for misusing a student Metrocard, not for what they actually did. But I'm definitely wrong, because that sort of infraction doesn't warrant jailing.
Oh, I see what you mean. Wouldn't an arrest for misuse of a metrocard be entrapment, then, because the police mailed the suspect the unmarked student card and implied that it was legal for them to use it?
I am glad they never put this plan into action--it looks like a bad idea on several accounts.
I don't know if it is. I'm not very familiar with these laws.
Neither am I. :-) It seems fishey, though...
Our city police may be oppressive, but we would never do something like that with Countycards.
Because at a time, manpower, and cost standpoint it would take a long time and be expensive to go out and catch every one. Most aren't home all day. But to have people come to you, thats another story.
I definitely think the marking of the cards so that it would set off a student yellow light was ill considered. They should have been more direct in the identification of the felons. It should have been something like the proximity alarms that you find on cars or houses that emit a verbal alert. If a murderer tries to use the card, then from the speaker system in the bus or subway should come the following message: MURDERER ... MURDERER ... MURDERER ... MURDERER ...
heypaul, your idea has some merit. Contact the MTA and perhaps you can get a lucrative contract to install the system.
SubDude
In the movie "Sea of Love" there is a scene where the NYPD runs such a sting. However, in the movie they invite frlons with outstanding warrants to a breakfast with the Yankees. They bag their quota, of course and even let one guy go.
It seems to me that stings like this one are creative and work because criminals, as a group, are stupid and greedy. I think the public's outrage over this proposed sting is misplaced. Seems to me that these criminals are riding the trains anyway, with or without the free metrocards. The only difference is the police might be able to spot them. I think the original plan called for using the metrocard to gather intelligence on their travel patterns so they could be caught, eventually. Unfortunately the plan got fouled up and publicized.
[It seems to me that stings like this one are creative and work because criminals, as a group, are stupid and greedy.]
You are quite right about the stupid part. I recall reading not long ago that state prison inmates on a nationwide level have a mean I.Q. score of 85. That's one full standard deviation below the 100 average, which (if I remember my statistics correctly) puts one in the bottom 16%. And even the 85 score is a little misleading. Prison inmates cannot go too far below that level, as then they'd be classified as mentally retarded and would be in sheltered environments, while there must be at least some high-I.Q. inmates pulling up the average. As a result, the typical inmate is probably in the upper 70's to low 80's ... in other words, as dumb as a sack of flour.
Of course -- since the sample was prison inmates -- that only means that those criminals who get caught are dumber than the norm.
My contention is that by using the MetroCard as a tracking device, basically anyone -- law abiding citizens -- could be accidentally arrested or worse during one of these stings.
That system is ripe for abuses either accidentally or intentionaly.
What's wrong with old fashioned police work?
SubDude
Between Metrocards and E-Z Pass, the government could track your every move. Am I alone in being scared to death of giving the government that kind of power?
I'm afraid the government will track my library card usage and find out the kind of stuff I read. I'M SCARED!!!
Ah, but then so is your "Blockbuster Video Card" or your "Shoprite Price Plus" Card. Even your credit cards or EZPass. They all give certain information that some companies pay big bucks for. They tell about what type of movies you watch, places you travel and even what type of food you eat. Invasion of privacy???? In a big way, my friend. The downside of the technological age.
Also the "cookies" file in your browser. If you are set up to accept cookies (like all of us using SubTalk are) then not only can a site leave a record of its presence in your cookies file, it has the capability of reading the entire cookies file and (I think) the history file. Some sites also have figured out how to grab your address book and add all your friends' addresses to their spam generators (this isn't permitted under the guidelines for cookie usage but, I'm told, often occurs, especially with Canadian sites).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree that these fugitive-sting operations are *generally* a good idea. The cops are using the last known address (from driver's license, arrest report, etc.), so it's not the case (as some people said) that they **know** where these people live. And it's a much better use of limited manpower to have half (or a third, or a fourth) of them come to you than to send a patrol car to each one's address to capture them.
Capturing suspected criminals using tricks or lies is NOT NOT NOT "entrapment" (for the people here who said it was). Entrapment is making someone commit a crime that they otherwise would have had no intention to commit. If a female cop stands on a streetcorner in a tiny skirt and see-through bra, and a man walks up to her and offers $100 for sex, that's a 'trap' in the common sense of the word but it's not entrapment. The person had formed on their own the intent to pick up a hooker; the cop didn't give him the idea.
Not that this particular sting is a good idea. The problem with this free student Metrocard idea (as others have pointed out) is that:
1) a subway station is a crappy place to be capturing criminals. The typical fugitive sting is done under controlled conditions where each suspect is brought one at a time into a room to be arrested and then led away by another exit. No place for the suspect to run, take a hostage, etc.
2) there are people illegally using student Metrocards who aren't wanted criminals, and people who legitimately use student cards but look older than they are.
Though I'm not a cop, I am disgusted by the people in this thread who blithely assume that all cops are trigger happy and will immediately shoot someone in a public place because they think they might be a suspect. 39 shots and Diallo aside (how did Diallo get mentioned in this context anyhow? We're talking about cops overreacting and misperceiving the presence of danger, not a group of sickos who happened to be cops blatantly assaulting someone who wasn't presenting even the potential of a threat), most cops, even in the worst neighborhoods, never fire their gun except on the range. And a cop who shot at a suspect in a place where bystanders can get in the way just because he was fleeing would be fired ASAP. I'm certainly not going to say that there aren't rogue cops. But to presume that all cops are Barney Fifes just itching to shoot someone is an insult to people who risk their lives in public service every day.
Sorry. I'll get off my soapbox now. (^:
John --
Regarding your two concerns, I think the public has jumped to quite a conclusion regarding this program. Has anyone said (in an official capacity) that this program would be used to take violent criminals into custody? Or is it for non-violent offenders who simply can't be captured at a home address? If we're talking about taking deadbeat dads, parking fine scofflaws and other non-violent offenders here I would say it's probably much safer to take them into custody in the subway rather than when they're in their own home.
In terms of people illegally using the student metrocards or legitimate older-looking students, the turnstiles and bus fareboxes have been blinking a certain light when a student card is swiped since the introduction of Metrocards. Officers monitoring for fare evasion are now able to watch not just for turnstile jumpers but also for card fraud.
The bottom line is, if the police have done a reasonable job of identifying which wanted criminals are not likely to become violent and sent the cards only to them, I think it's a great program. Until I see somewhere that they're sending these cards to murderers and rapists I'll trust the NYPD to do their job.
Chuck
Chuck
[The bottom line is, if the police have done a reasonable job of identifying which wanted criminals are not likely to become
violent and sent the cards only to them, I think it's a great program. Until I see somewhere that they're sending these cards to
murderers and rapists I'll trust the NYPD to do their job.]
As originally conceived, the plan did indeed call for cards to be sent to violent criminals including murderers. Not that it matters anymore, as the plan's been kiboshed.
E-Z Pass has something like that. If you report your car stolen & you have E-Z Pass you report it to them and if the car goes through the toll an alarm sounds (I think) and the gate doesn't go up. However it doesn't really work. The only time a car thief will usually use a bridge or tunnel is on the initial getaway and 99% of the time it hasn't been reported to them by then. I don't think joyriders will use it or even know what it is. Probably the only people it catches are people who recovered their cars and cancelled the police alarm but NOT the E-Z Pass alarm. That would be embarrassing (and dangerous) but I'm sure it happens ALL the time!!
Thurston, on a collectable level, does this mean that the Michael J. MC's will be in circulation again?
Yes, BUT I don't want one !
They must have had a few left from the production of 500,000. Why couldn't they have been more creative about it, e.g. "Fun Fass", Single Ride Ticket, ABC Fidel Castro ? Just kidding.
Seriously, I hope someone told the cops that a legitimate card is light green vs. Gold w/graphics AND sometimes the yellow light comes on by mistake ! I have one that comes up "Student" & know of someone who got grabbed last year because the yellow light came on in error.
Mr t__:^)
Actor Danny Glover is peeved over the cabby situation. However, alot of it has less to do with race (in most cases) and more to do with cabbies who resent going to the outer boroughs (or north Manhattan) because in most cases they return without a pick-up fare. Unfortunately, for Mr. Glover it will be hard to prove actual racial discrimination in cases like this. But the cabby situation DOES need to be addressed.
SubDude
Sorry, SubDude, but I don't agree. As a conservative-looking white guy, I can get a cab to take me to Harlem. Take me, darken my skin, and I can't. I have 18 years' worth of sporadic experience getting cabs for black coworkers, one of the saddest and most humiliating tasks I can think of as a NYC resident.
If your point is that cabbies want to stay in Manhattan below 96th Street, sure. That's true. But that's not what their job description says. It says they have to stop for ANYONE who hails them, and take that person ANYWHERE in the 5 boros (beyond is negotiable, I think).
They'll stop for me 'cause I'm white, perhaps on the assumption that I want to go in that range (largely correct, I have to say). They will NOT stop for my black counterpart, perhaps on the assumption that he wants to go outside that range (sometimes correct, sometimes not). That's the point. In my book, that's called racism.
The point is that the driver that Mr. Glover charged is also black. Is that racism or is it a matter of economics? The fact is the majority of cab drivers interviewed by the local media gave the same 4 reasons for not picking up black patrons.
1) More likely to be robbed or assaulted.
2) Less likely to tip or will not tip as well.
3) More likely to go to a less desirable destination where getting a fare back to midtown is not likely.
4) More argumentative
These are not my words but the words of cabbies, black, white hispanic or asian. Seems to me that this is a matter of economics and self preservation that motivates the cabbies. That does not make it racism, however. You can't assume an entire race will fit into one of the above 4 catagories by virtue of their color.
BTW: A few years ago, David Dinkins also filed a complaint because a cabbie also passed him up along with Mrs. Dinkins. Of course the cabbie said he knew Dinkins was a lousy tipper.
What's this story?
It's better to e-mail me the answer since I don't want to start another off-topic thread.
Oh gee, what a shock. A black man can't get a cab to Harlem. Let's all repeat after me: Duh.
While I think this is a deplorable situation, I don't think it's overtly racist. I chalk it up to the human instinct of self preservation. Driving a cab is one of the most dangerous jobs in the city, and the odds are that if your going to get robbed, the perpetrator will most likely not be white. Sad but true. Can you blame the drivers?
I can agree that it's self-preservation and not necessarily racism to refuse to take a fare to, or pick up a fare in, bad neighborhoods, even if that means not serving areas that are predominantly non-white. But how about a black person, NOT shabbily dressed or dressed in "gangsta" clothes, hailing a cab in midtown so he can get to an appointment downtown? No bad neighborhoods involved, nor a response to the clues derived from how one dresses, but strictly a reaction to the skin color of the person, and that IS racism, even if it's not motivated by hatred. I seriously doubt that Danny Glover was headed to a crappy neighborhood, or dressed like a bum, when cabbies passed him by.
Check out how Glover was dressed as he tried to get a cab. He looked like bum.
Unfortunatley, even if he was wearing a designer suit he'd probaby get passed by a lot of cabs. Drivers don't even want to bother assesing the risk.
[I can agree that it's self-preservation and not necessarily racism to refuse to take a fare to, or pick up a fare in, bad neighborhoods, even if that means not serving areas that are predominantly
non-white. But how about a black person, NOT shabbily dressed or dressed in "gangsta" clothes, hailing a cab in midtown so he can get to an appointment downtown? No bad neighborhoods involved, nor a response to the clues derived from how one dresses, but strictly a reaction to the skin color of the person, and that IS racism, even if it's not motivated by hatred.]
In most of the reported incidents in which taxis have refused to stop for black men, the taxis have driven right past, with the drivers pretending not to see them. There have been far fewer incidents in which the drivers have stopped, but then refused the fares when the passengers have asked to go to bad areas. In other words, the drivers (the great majority of whom are non-white themselves) actually are scared off by the sight of black men, rather than refusing to go to certain neighborhoods.
There's also a gender issue involved. Black women seldom complain of difficulty in getting taxis. It's basically black men who are bypassed.
The bottom line to all this is: Racial discrimination under ANY pretext is against the laws of this country as well as New York State. People like the creeps at the New York Post (and the equally odious Washington Times) push "rational discrimination" as protection for cabbies. The problem is, if you allow cabbies to discriminate, then other businesses will want the same - then we're back to Jim Crow. Pit bull/Rottweiler owners must constantly beg, "Punish the deed, not the breed"...the same should apply to people of color.
Should people also be allowed to discriminate against adolescent white males, based on the behavior of SOME of them at rock concerts and in Columbine? Think about it.
Ah but we are holding Cabbies to a different standard than other employees. For example, a letter carrier does not have to deliver mail to an address where they perceive that their safety would be compromised. Keep in mind that MOST cabbies in NYC are not white and any perceived racism is minority vs minority.
Look at it this way. A cabbie pays over $125 per day to drive a cab for 12 hours. If he's taken to an area where the likelihood of getting another fare coming back is nil, it becomes a matter of pure economics. We've all got to stop painting with that broad racism brush and start to look at things more objectively. Anyone can cry wolf but sooner or later no one will listen.
[Look at it this way. A cabbie pays over $125 per day to drive a cab for 12 hours. If he's taken to an area where the likelihood of getting another fare coming back is nil, it becomes a matter of pure economics.]
One solution would be to allow surcharges for trips to areas where return fares are unlikely. That's already done, in a modest way, with the $10 surcharge for Newark Airport. This would be an imperfect solution, of course, as people going to outlying areas would have to pay more. It also might be difficult to determine just where these "no-return-fare" areas are located. But at least the drivers would get a better deal, and people who want to go to these areas would have an easier time getting cabs.
Charging minority people a surgharge because they live in 'undesirable' areas is in itself discriminatory. It would be as unjust as if the TA charged an extra 50 cents for subway rides north of 96th St. because of the increased vandalism.
I think the answers are far too complex for us but I'd start in two areas.
First, integrity tests for cab drivers. Have them hailed by inspectors who are black or hispanic. If the driver passes them by or refuses to take them to 'one of those neighborhoods', he should immediately be suspended.
Second, is far more sensative but I'd have the TLC open forums between drivers and riders and make participation for drivers mandatory (perhaps by lottery). Here drivers could explain what behaviors (other than criminal) they find so negative (and drivers have expressed a host of issues from argumentative customers to poor tippers) and riders could explain the range of emotions they feel when they are refused service based solely on the color of their skin.
It may not mean 'undisirable' areas in the true sense, but a surcharge for cabbies to go to the outer boroughs (which usually means no return fare) is discriminatory to ALL people who live in places other than Manhattan or neighborhoods that border LaGuardia or JFK airports.
BTW, in a similar situation, the Brooklyn Borough President threatened to file a lawsuit against the VILLAGE VOICE for similar discriminatory practices. The act: the VILLAGE VOICE was being offered for FREE, but ONLY in Manhattan. For nearly two years all readers of the VOICE in other areas of the city had to fork over the $1/$1.50 for the paper. I don't think the lawsuit was ever filed, but under the threat of other boroughs following suit, the VOICE gave in and is now available for FREE in all areas of the city.
SubDude
I don't see that outer-borough taxi surcharges would necessarily be disriminatory. Simple economics are at play - trips outside Manhattan often are money-losers due to the lack of return fares.
I don't see that outer-borough taxi surcharges would necessarily be disriminatory.
They would be. Taxis are licensed and required to operate in the entire city, not just Manhattan. They're already paid for mileage charges when they travel to the boroughs.
[[I don't see that outer-borough taxi surcharges would necessarily be disriminatory.]
[They would be. Taxis are licensed and required to operate in the entire city, not just Manhattan. They're already paid for mileage charges when they travel to the boroughs.]
Just the fact that the taxis are licensed to operate in the entire city does not necessarily mean that a "one-city-one-fare" policy is mandatory. If we are to believe the drivers, trips outside of Manhattan are money-losers given the lack of return fares. Mileage charges do not change this situation. Under these circumstances, adding surcharges for these trips would be sensible from an economic standpoint - no one wants to make the drivers lose money.
Taxis are paid by mileage. There is no "one city, one fare" when it comes to taxis.
Sure cabbies want to operate where it's most profitable. Doesn't everyone? But they're granted a benefit by the City which protects their status--no new medallions have been issued since c.1938.
Let the City double the number of medallions and those outer borough fares might not seem so unappetizing to the cabbies.
[Taxis are paid by mileage. There is no "one city, one fare" when it comes to taxis.
Sure cabbies want to operate where it's most profitable. Doesn't everyone? But they're granted a benefit by the City which protects their status--no new medallions have been issued since c.1938.
Let the City double the number of medallions and those outer borough fares might not seem so unappetizing to the cabbies.]
Any big increase in the number of medallions would be met with an enormous hue and cry by all the owners who had paid high scarcity-based prices for theirs. And this being the good old USA, the lawsuits would follow in short order.
At any rate, getting back to the fare issue, it might well be that the mileage-based fares are insufficient on long outer-borough trips. If a driver's 12-hour shift includes a 90-minute fareless return trip from Rosedale or Douglaston, he's quite possibly going to lose money for the day. No one requires retailers to sell merchandise for less than cost. Prohibiting outer-borough surcharges indeed could have just that effect.
Paul, I have not driven a Yellow Cab since the 70s. I was robbed twice in one night and decided it wasn't worth it. I'm not sure about the details but I believe that you may be wrong on two points. I believe there is a one fare policy on airport rides. I also think that there were some new medallions issued a year or two ago.
Steve, Robbery is a different issue from not wanting to go somewhere because you can't get a return fare. Cab medallions are so high because the City set up an artificial monopoly by freezing the number of medallions to those issued in 1938.
I disputed Peter on a rhetorical point. On this forum especially, One City One Fare describes the City policy of charging you $1.50 (or less) to go one bus stop, or the same $1.50 to go from Tottenville to Van Cortlandt Park. That's hardly the case with taxis.
IIRC, the "new" medallions do not raise the total number. They were issued to replace medallions revoked over the course of 60 years and never reissued.
Actually there are thousands more cabs now than in '38. Just not yellow medallion. In the 50's & 60's there were hundreds of yellow cabs in the outer boroughs. I remember yellow cab lines at cab stands at Bklyn and Queens subway stations as a regular thing. Even at the Ferry terminal in St George, S.I. Now all you see are car services, and the yellow cabs are basically in Manhattan below 96St or the airports. I hacked in the '70s to pay for college. That was during the transition. People would pass me up for a car service alot thinking they were cheaper.
Pit bull/Rottweiler owners must constantly beg, "Punish the deed, not the breed"...the same should apply to people of color.
I think that's an inappropriate comparison.
Actually, it's perfectly appropriate. There are people who want to ban all pit bulls and Rotties because some of the dogs have brutally attacked humans...this isn't too far removed from those who would discriminate against all black or Latino men because of the actions of a small number of them.
Seeking information about IRT#9 such as when and why it was added to the 1,2,3, line and any other relevant data or facts. Thanx.
Go to the Subway FAQ and you will read the answers.
Chaohwa
The short answer is it's a "Skip Stop" addition to #1, vs. partial express that used to run on third track of Broadway line. There was also a #1 that was turned at 137th Street. After you're read FAQ, what of interest can be found between 137th & 145th ?
Mr t__:^)
I always thought it would be nice to run the 9 to 137th during middays and/or weekends.
Does ridership warrant it?
--I always thought it would be nice to run the 9 to 137th during middays and/or weekends.
Does ridership warrant it? --
I don't think so -- the headways through midtown seem pretty reasonable during those times, and there's enough ridership above 137th (at least as far up as Dyckman) to warrant not turning every other train at 137.
Chuck
One of the problems is the amount of folks that get on at Van Cortland Park (242nd) and either go downtown (past 96th) or get off at 116th. If 116th had island platforms, i.e access to middle track, they might be able to make us of that middle track again. The northbound also empties at 116th.
Mr t__:^)
When it first was concieved, the 9 ran from 7am until 9pm weekdays.
-Hank
I remember when I first saw "9" trains in the summer of 89. All I said was "huh"?
The Rt 9 Broadway-7th Avenue Local began operating on Monday, August 21,1989 utilizing the #9 route designation previously assigned to Dyre Avenue Line trains from 1948 to 1965.
The #9 ran Monday through Friday from about 6am to 7pm between 242 Street-Broadway and South Ferry duplicating the route of the #1 train.
#9 trains operated "Skip-Stop Express Service" between 242 Street in The Bronx and 137 Street in Manhattan bypassing 238 Street in The Bronx, and 215 Street,Dyckman Street and 157 Street in Manhattan.
Effective September 4,1994 midday #9 service was discontinued and #1 trains made all stops. #9 now runs approximately from 6am to 9am and 4pm to 7pm.
The #9 has always been identified by a white #9 in a red circle.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Can anyone assist me,,please ,in obtaining a complete up to date listing
Thanks
Steve
FDNY84
Which car class do you need? E-mail me......Mark
Did you get my letter
Steve (thank you )
Fire Dept of NYC
rode on the "N" train back from work tonight, 4 cars were R68(#2864-#2868) while the lastr 4 were R68A(#5161-#5164). never saw that before, is this normal occurance or a fluke?
I don't know but there they go again messing around with the Sea Beach. How many other trains to they mongolize with different cars?
I didn't see any of this when I was in New York this summer.
The R-68 and 68A are similar enough for mixing. If they weren't built by different companies, then they wouldn't even have the extra A class. BMT Standards were built by different companies. Would you complain when these were mixed?
And so were the R1-9 built by different companies, and the lo volts
Remember, R-40M's 4450-99 and R-42's 4924-49 always ran mixed when
they were in E and F service. Also, all R-40M's ran mixed with
R-42's 4696-4807 in D service.
Remember, R-40M's 4450-99 and R-42's 4924-49 always ran mixed when
they were in E and F service. Also, all R-40M's ran mixed with
R-42's 4696-4807 in D service.
Remember during the late '60s and early '70s when everything was mixed? You could find R-27/30's, R-32's, R-38's, and R-42's all on one train. I remember this particularly on the B, D, N and QJ. Although this was a phenomenon on B division in the late '60s and early '70s, It was always the norm on the A division. You could always see R-12/14's, R-15's, R-17's, R-21/22's, R-26/28's and R-29/33's running on one train.
And during the Willy B closing this year, there were reports of 32/42/slant 40 mixes on the N and Q, harking back those 30 years! Wish I had seen that. (was too young then; not on the southern div. enough, now)
R40M and R42 are still running as mixed consists in the Eastern Division. In fact, there's one Mixed Odd Couple: R42 #4665 mated to R40M #4460, widow and widower from the Williamburg Bridge crash of 1995.
Wayne
I think you have the R-68 car numbers off - the way you have it, it would be a nine-car consist of 75-foot cars (you have five R-68's listed).
subfan
I assume he probably meant #2864 to #2867 for the R-68, as the order began with #2500, and since it is now linked into fours, the lowest number in the R68s being linked is exactly divisible by four (with the obvious exception of the Franklin 2916-2924 nine-car portion).
#2868 is with the #2869-71-70 consist, so therefore, he means #2864-65-67-66.
The R68A #5161 to #5164 is correct, but would be seen in operation as #5164-63-61-62 as the order started with #5001, and hence highest number is divisible by four, as they have been linked in the same manner the R68's were linked.
The B train was a child born of the Chrstie Street Connection which after Opening Day and Unification was,arguably the most important event in the history of the subway system.
The B train was to be a merger of the IND BB Wash.Hts.-6th Av Lcl and the BMT #3 (or T)Broadway-West End Express. The BB ran M-F rush hours only between 168 St and 34 St-6 Av while the T ran M-F extended rush hours between Astoria and Coney Island with short turns at Queensboro Plaza and Bay Parkway. On Saturdays it ran between 57 St-7 Av and Coney from 6am to 8pm.
About the only consistant feature of the B has been its operation on the BMT between Dekalb Av and Coney Is. It has never really found a home on the IND.
The B began running on Monday,November 27,1967 from COney Island to 168 Street during rush hours and West 4 St at other times. It only ran Mon-Sat from 6am to 8pm and did not run on Sunday. This was possible since in those early post-Chrystie St days the B had a helpmate on the West End Line. It was the old BMT TT West End Shuttle which ran between 36 St-4 Av and Coney Island whenever the B wasn't running. This continued until July,1968 when 57 St-6 Av opened and the B began 24/7 operation;to 168 St during the rush,to 57/6 at all other times.
This happy state of affairs lasted until 1976 when the K was discontinued and the B now had to serve 57 St during the rush as well and this lead to the complicated schedule I described in a previous post.
This state of affairs lasted until about 1988 when 168 St became the northern terminal from about 6am to 10pm on weekdays.Later this was shortened to 145 St at certain times and still more recently Bedford Park Blvd on the Concourse.
None of this addresses the numerous Manhattan Bridge reroutes which split the B into an all IND route like the old B and and all BMT route similar to the old T. The first Manny B closing lasted a few days, but the railfans had so much fun with the reroutes that the next one lasted three weeks, after that it was out for months at a time.
So now the B wanders about the IND in search of a home visiting three terminals(Bedford Park,145 St and 21 St-QB) in a day. Only the midnight shuttle between 36 St and Coney seems to be secure.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Shucks they should have done that to the unscenic Sea Beach instead. At Least on the West End Branch of the El you could look out and see things. Do you hear me Fred? Brighton Most Scenic Line for fall foliage, Sea Beach, walls
Hey, on part of the line you have a wonderful, unobstructed view of rusting freight trains parked on the Bay Ridge LIRR.
It's better than the darn wall.
The B should be a BMT Broadway express from Coney Island to
Queensbridge, the Q should remain as is on 6th Avenue, and the K
will be restored to full-time and will operate on 6th Avenue from
Jamaica to Bedford Park Boulevard or 145th Street, J will be
eliminated, M will run full-time to Broad Street, and Z rush-hou
service will be retained and extended to Bay Parkway.
You can't run a potential "K" train on Central Pk. West as the connection only connects into the 6th Ave. local tracks. It would require a delay inducing switch at W4th or 34th St.
I wonder if the K can switch from local to express tracks (northbound) before 42nd St/6th Ave or express to local after 42nd St/6th Ave (southbound). If so, that can be one option.
Nick
it can switch north of Bway-Lafayette, north of W4th and north of 34th. All of which are undesireable, especially during rush hours.
The B should remain on6th ASve, you have the N and R on Bdwy from the 4th Ave Line inb Bklyn, The Q should run on Bdwy, so on the Brighton you will have a choice of a 6th Ave Train and a Broadway Train, even though Bdwy and 6th Ave are never more then 2 blocks apart from each other in Midtown. In a earlier statement, if and when the bridge opens there should be a QT and QB Lines at least on weekdays,
I'd like to add this "ode to the B Train" to the "West End Line" history in the line-by-line section on its next revision .....
--Mark
Mark: I didn't really go into to much detail in my posting about the B train. I could provide more detailed infomation if you need it. But please feel free to use it in whatever way you see fit.It would be nice to see an analysis or overview of the route developement as oppossed to a bare bones service guide. (Which is also useful).
Please e-mail me if I can be of any assistance.
Larry (RedbirdR33@hotmail.com)
Maybe you could do a little bit for each subway line. Your the most knowledgeable person I know who posts here.
Does anyone have a follow-up information regarding the strike of MTA workers on New Year's Eve? Did they renegotiate the contract? Shall we be "walking" into the 21st Century?
Striking by TWU members is against the law. No work stoppage can be tolerated, even if the contract isn't finalized.
Please find a legal, less costly and less crippling method of labor negotiations.
Dear Chris,
Any strike is illegal. And in today's highly mobile economy and overpopulated city, the word crippling is an understatement. I am against strike. What I am looking for is an information so I can sleep better, because, unfortunately like majority of New Yorkers, I don't have a G.. d... car to get me around. And it's a pretty long walk from Coney Island to Manhattan.
Thank you.
Only strikes by professions deemed a "necessity" are illegal according to NY's Taylor Law. That includes cops, firefighters, ssanitation workers and transit workers.
I remember the strike of '80. I was 8 and my father had to move into a hotel close to his office so he could work. I didn't see him for a week. Each passing day I'd look out my window, hoping to see or hear the J train running again, knowing that my father wouldn't be home until it did. I don't want to see that happen again.
The 1966 strike crippled thd City much more than the 1980 strike did. At least people managed to get to and from work (even if it took 2-3 hours one way). I managed to get to work in 1980. I was a kid during the 1966 strike. Nothing moved.
Was there ANY train service during the 80 strike? The J line was completely shut down.
Not on the subway. Did the ATU also strike? Or did some bus lines still run?
No rapid transit service, no city buses. I don't remember whether Triboro Coach, Steinway Transit, Green lines and Queens Transit ran or not. My guess is that they didn't.
It is amazing reading your responses. Thanks for the insight, guys. Of course, I was too young and too far away to remember any of this.
The City "industry" is almost in its entirety dependent on the subway system. That's why my concern. It is not fair of them to threaten with strike (meaning TWU), but just "imagine the possibilities"...
Of course, the world wouldn't end, but it wouldn't be all that nice either.
Thanks again.
I think that you have to look at the potential of a strike in several different ways because it is a complex issue.
First - The Taylor Law.
The fact that there is a law prohibiting strikes by municipal workers does not make it fair to prohibit the right to strike. Strikes have been an important part of the labor movement in this country and a key factor in our success. You must consider the possibility that the law may be unjust.
Second - The Issues.
Because of the Taylor Law, and because of the specter of binding arbitration, the MTA can fail to bargain in good faith with the TWU. Of course, this too is against the law but it is one thing to be against the law and another to prove it. You must consider the possibility that the Rank & File is worthy of a raise based on the improvements in the system.
Finally - The TWU
When I was a TWU member, I was suspicious of them. When I was an SSSA member, I saw how fast that organization sold it's principles when it allowed me to withdraw from membership as long as the TA ccontinued to reimburse them for the revenue lost by my dues not being paid. Prior to that, they went to court to keep my title from being made non-represented. Clearly, the unions have agendas and self interest and those may at times come in direct conflict with what is best for the members.
In considering all of the above, while I do not think that there will be a strike, I do think that on some level, there would be a moral justification for one. Would I strike if I were in a union now? I don't honestly know. I feel that the politicians have prostituted the Taylor Law. They are using it as a weapon to back up unfair labor practices rather than a tool to prevent illegal job actions. Perhaps it is time that this law were tested, in the courts or in the streets?
The fact is, the MTA is not a business. You can't strike against the MTA (the board of the MTA consists of people who drive in from the suburbs). You can only strike against the people. If the TA were a business, it would have gone broke in the early 1960s.
Second, the MTA is, more or less, a monopoly for commutation to Manhhattan. Yes, some can drive in, but it is physically impossible for all to drive in. Imagine that Con Ed and its unions turned of the elecrtricity for the city, and vowed to keep it off until both electric rates were increased 100 times? You wouldn't think that was fair.
Third, MTA workers are paid more than the rest of us, on average, period.
So while I agree that TA workers are entitled to a substantial raise, I do not believe the TWU has a right to strike. It should simply take its case to the people, and to the streets, and not sign a contract until one is on offing that is fair.
Please, this has NOTHING to do with money. It's about being treated with respect.
I and many others would accept 0% for the life of the contract if we simply got back all the little things we have given up when the TA claimed it was broke.
HERE HERE agree with you 1000% respect and some givebacks returned from previous negotiations. MTA in all is arrogance thinks it can bully the rank and file and all it can say in return is your lucky to have a job. Who are the ones moving the trains and buses? who are the ones emptying the trash, cleaning stations and the people giving customers metrocards and tokens? MTA pats itself on the back and makes no mention of the people who do their jobs and do a damn good job at that. If everyone feels we make too much money then take a god damn test or mail your resume' after all WE"RE HIRING! If your a lawyer yes we'll hire you accountant computer specialist college grad with a pulse and hopefully not burnt oout from all the partying while at away at school.. We re after all an Equal Opportunity Employer! so if your tired of yoour low paying job and lousy benefits suck it up go into the light and WORK FOR THE MTA GOING YOUR WAY! I guess getting burned on Wall STREET is a bitch but with all the wealth in MANHATTAN alone most of these people residing in the big apple ride the subway right? after all spending 3500 a month for a 1 bdroom apt opps thats just your share of the rent right? your not earning a motormans salary right? or sending the rugrats to private school tuition 12-20,000 a year or more not many of us here in NYCTA can afford that..
Hey Im looking to graduate next month!!!!!!!!! Im looking for a job at TA soon:):)
3TM
Brooklyn Bridge. The next and fianl stop will be Fulton St/South Street Seaport. Stand Clear..........
[The fact is, the MTA is not a business. You can't strike against the MTA (the board of the MTA consists of people who drive in from the suburbs). You can only strike against the people. If the TA were a business, it would have gone broke in the early 1960s.]
Exactly. A strike against, say, General Motors can be effective because the company is likely to lose money. But each day that the subways and commuter trains don't run means *less* of a loss for the taxpayers.
BUT it puts tremendous pressure on the decision makers!
Articulated well, my friend.
Steve, it's nice to see a cool head on this issue. While I don't necessarily agree with all your statements, I'm not directly enough affected by the situation to feel it my business to comment. There's been way too much flamage on this topic already and I hope that those perpetrating such will read your post and realize that this issue can be discussed in a calm and rational manner.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have to agree in Steve's second point where the TA does use the Taylor Law as a shield to avoid bargaining in good faith as required by PERB and other agencies. The SSSA is currently in court because the TA contract proposals were not only worse the second time around but the union was willing to accept it. Their dissident faction took the TA and the union to court for misrepresentation and the judge has ordered them to go to mediation. No one should have to go to a judge to get a raise but without fair monitering and representation, we would have no choice. It is clearly obvious that at this time, the NYCTA will pull all their plugs claiming big money for Second Avenue and new cars and buses will have to raise the fare. Do you want us not to go out on strike. I promise each and every one of you out there that if you just write a letter to Pataki blasting him for turning down our 20 year pension or supporting each and every working class blue collar New Yorker so we can have pension reform or a little bonus for the work we do we wouldn't have do do what we are about to do. Something simple as going out every Nov 2 and cast your votes to those who support the AFL-CIO may help. Why didn't you complain when Lawrence Reuter got $75,000 to relocate from his home in Virginia plus a signing bonus AND a vested pension worth over $100,000 in as little as three years at YOUR expense? Check out the site below and see how the taxpayers support white collar crime while we live in a SH**house
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/divisions/pubauth/page420.htm
20 year pension? I fully expect to have to work until I'm 75. I'd be interested in what exactly are the "givebacks people object to. I can only speak to the general difference between public and private sector workers.
1) Public sector workers earn less in cash for the same work.
2) Public sector workers can get away with doing less work: other public sector workers have to make it up.
3) Public sector workers get more generous pensions, and get to retire far earlier, but only if they stay for many years. Those who change jobs are screwed -- pension slavery.
4) Public sector workers work fewer days (more sick days taken, vacation, holidays), and fewer hours, and fewer years due to short pensions.
5) Attempts to cut back the more generous benefits always apply to those hired since 1980. Those around before the fiscal crisis made out like bandits.
The LIRR only went as far as Jamaica.
This LIRR struck for the first day only. After that you could get from Penn Station into Queens. The PATH did not strike and I remember they ran special non stop trains from World Trade Center to 33rd Street. The ride took about 45 minutes, but it was a lot cheaper than a cab ride.
r u a retard?
In as much as Wanting to strike and your vehement opposition and wishing people could be hired off the streets and given a crash course in operating a subway train all you have to do look back to is November 1 1918 Malbone street wreck... this individual was from another title no less hired directly off the street given a few instructions and WHAM killed what was it 98 people....
Or to quote Walter Mathau in "The Taking of Pelham 1 2 3",
"Someone down there knows how to drive a subway train. You don't pick that up watching Sesame Street"
Sorry pal. Just going to the TA and saying "please, can we have back our cost of living, improved medical benefits and more personel to shorten our workload" won't cut it so we have one major alternative. To take money out of the management's pockets as public humiliation seems to affect them. Three ways to do it are to
1) STRIKE, a very likely alternative at this stage
2) A rulebook slowdown invloving major delays to service through BIEs
3) A sitdown strike where union members actually provide subway service but refuse to collect fares by keeping gates open and jamming turnstyles
Maybe a non union person can go and ask his/her boss for a raise and might get it but 3000 T/Os will not get it by asking. That is why we have collective bargaining but in this administration, union leaders will not fight for us and management will not realize that WE, the working members of the NYCTA are the reason that you are enjoying safe, efficient and reliable subway and bus service. We are going to get a piece of the pie at ALL costs, even if it means we have to flex some muscles.
Shop Man, can you contact me at the above address? I am doing a story about this, and would like to talk to you. Workers seem to be the last people we think about in the great scheme of things. Also, anyone intereseted is welcome to write too. Tks.
First of all, who do you work for. I protest the Daily News because to their opinion, I may be functionally illiterate and can't pass an exam. Therefore, I will attempt to read another paper. If you do work for the Daily News, please remind them when they were on strike on 1994, the TWU supported them on the picket lines and handed out flyers at Grand Central. Tell them how they have lost their ability to see through the flies to get to the pile of crap that lies. A reporter defaming union members would get ONLY the management's side of the story but the "investigative reporter" at NYDN printed the lies only and didn't even call the union for their side. Maybe we should call Arnold Diaz and run a Shame on You article for the New York Daily News Hall of Shame. Say, is it true that hundreds of readers won the scratch and match game on 11/5 but were told it was a misprint? Talk about a strike? No comment here. BIE BIE. Ooooops, I meant Bye Bye.
As far as Daily News goes, I agree with you. And no, I don't work for them, nor do I plan to. I believe in independence of opinion and thought. Unfortunately, this is lately only found in few oasis, Mine is the college I attend. Hope this helps.
Hadn't thought of a "sitdown strike" -- not collecting fares. That one doesn't hurt the riders at all. It may or may not count as a strike under the Taylor Law. And it could go on for some time. On the other hand, if the workers are not getting paid, the TA may be better off without the fares.
On thing that may be worth considering -- a riders' class action suit against the MTA and TWU, on the grounds that they used their monopoly power to cheat the customer. We could demand that everyone in the MTA -- suits and T/Os alike -- work without pay and without collecting fares for a few days to make it up to us -- over and above any Taylor Law. We could also get compensation for any pay or vacation days lost due to absence at work. Can you sue the monopoly provider of a necessity for failing to provide a service?
However, it's still illegal, as it's assisting people in the theft of service. But as long as trains run uninterrupted I could, as a commuter, tolerate this. If they strike I'll be the first person jump for joy as Rudy and Pataki crush the union.
I don't think you'd be able to get very far asserting that the MTA was a monopoly. They have plenty of competition from cars, walking, dollar vans and the like.
On the other hand, I don't know if anyone ever thought about how unions may violate anti-trust provisions throught their control and rationing of labor.
Chuck
That's an interesting interpretation. I've always associated "closed" shops as the labor equivelant of monopolies.
(Labor monopolies).
Let's just say that if my union (DC37) wasn't a monopoly, lots of people would be looking to be represented by someone else. Talk about a ripoff!
Hey I'll take the sitdown option. Anything that delays/impedes a persons commute will not be tolerated. A strike will be financially stupid (you'd lose 2 days pay for everyday on strike), but it will also piss off commuters.
Don't do it. It's illegal, stupid, and counter-producive.
I'd have to say that the idea of a sitdown strike will workout to be much more financially damaging to the transit worker than the two-for-one penalty. I'm sure that theft of services and aiding in the theft of services is going to be cause for termination under any union contract -- active or prospective. I don't think I'd hire anyone who told me they lost their last job because they opened up the fare gates to let people ride for free.
I'd suggest that the union needs to be extremely careful about a decision to strike. This is 1999, and the overwhelming majority of US industry is no longer unionized. The public doesn't buy into the "oppressed worker" philosophy anymore. Ask any American Airlines pilot about the reaction they got when they returned to work earlier this year after their "sick-out".
The perception of transit workers is that they are rather well-paid (but not necessarily overpaid) for their skills. I doubt very much there will be much public sypmathy for them if they strike.
In addition, the union needs to consider that many of the jobs are easily replacable. Station agents and bus drivers come to mind immediately, but it isn't hard to picture a scenario under which the union could be crushed entirely through defections and an intensive 6 week training program for new motormen and conductors. Remember that the MTA already made train operator a position open to the public and there was a sizeable response.
I totally agree. The union is in a no-win situation. Let an arbitrator decide who gets what for the next contract and be done with it.
I, as a subway fan and prospective future TA employee, have absolutly no tolerance for those who participate in an illegal work stoppage. The majority of New Yorkers will not support them, as they need subways to get around. I can't believe TWU officials would even consider it.
"prospective future TA employee"
Your opininon WILL change after you have been chewed up
and spit out by labor relations!
For all of you NON employees who seem to feel so qualified
to comment: a strike by TWU members wouldn't be so much as
trying to achieve a goal as it would be about getting
even. Surveying the membership, the vast majority support
a strike. Most for the simple reason of taking venegence
on the senior management team. It's a forgone conclusion
that as Pataki and Guiliani "crush" the union Chris, they
will also demand Reuter's and Hofmann's heads. For that
alone many of us would glady give up a few days pay.
As non employees none of you have any idea of the level of hostility TA management engenders. Matter of fact, although I DO NOT condone this, it's only a matter of time before some poor transit worker goes crazy with a gun at 130 Livingson St.
That said, there's no way the city could survive a strike long enough to replace us. Although Herbie Lambert and Nat Ford like to think so.
Those two rocket scientists have actually come up with a
contingency plan. They believe that using supervision and probationary employees, a sunday schedule could be provided. Keep dreaming. SSSA members are working
right now without a contract. Do those arrogant asses
actually think the SSSA members won't join in with us?
We have been advising all TWU members for some time now to take a pension loan equal to two weeks pay. So we are
prepared.
After taking it in the ass for years now, it's
time for payback.
Be afraid. Be very afraid.
I'm not saying I don't sympathize. But don't strike. I hope I don't offend transit workers by saying this, but your grievences aren't that important as compared to the smooth operation of the city's mass transit system. Take your case to a binding arbitrator and hope for the best.
Chris, do you know how the arbitrator works? He reads the letter of a rule, contract or bulletin and applies it to an individual case. The contract language is tilted to the TA as there are many instances where the union "may" have one right but management "shall" have another. You DAMN better change your opinion that our grievances aren't important because they also affect the safety of you, your family and neighbors. If I file a grievance that cab time is excessive, you will pay if I lose as you may ride a J train that might crash into another on a bridge. If your railroad clerk isn't allowed lunch or a toilet break, you pay by standing in longer lines at the booth. Without some leeway in Labor Relations, your trip will be hell and I will see to it personally that on my lines, hell will be given out for free with every purchase of the metrocard.
We've been through this before. The TA (like the post office, another bastian of workplace job) is a rule-based organizations. The TWU encourages workers to do the MINIMUM amount of work they can get away with, according to the strict language of the contract. And Management responds with the MINIMUM level of consideration they can get away with (no you can't go to the bathroom), according to the strict language of the contract. It's the only option they have.
Note that 20 years ago, in the "good old days" lots of TA employees were drunk on the job, or failed to show up. I remember waiting hours trying to get home one Christmas, because lots of bus drivers weren't there so the routes did not run. I was on crutches, and had to go to the bathroom, at the time. I bought a car soon after, and the TA had gotten its last off-peak dollar from me.
I believe the TWU position is that it has done a good job, cleaned up its act, and given back to the system, and it deserve thanks and rewards in exchange. If management won't give it to, you should have paid for the advertizing campaign "we accepted givebacks and worked harder when the system is in trouble, productivity is up 90 percent (true based on ridership and employment figures), so don't we deserve a reward?" As it is, a strike will send its own message --- SCREW ALL OF YOU.
As I said, I expect a strike, but of no more than three days, hopefully over the weekend of Dec. 17-20, perhaps with continuing bad service on Monday.
As a cop my biggest complaint with the PBA is no b-lls!! I admire a union that has the ba-ls to say F__K the Taylor Law. Lets face it, striking is the only leverage a union has. Arbitration?? The city has city arbitrators, paid by the city. When the PBA tried get the law changed to use state arbitrators (P.E.R.B.) the city took us to court and won, saying PERB violates home rule. My sympathies will definitely lie with the transit workers during a strike.
If big brother knows he has the Taylor Law on his side, then what is the incentive for him to bargain fairly vs. any union in this city? Yes, the word "fairly" is a subjective one, and the definition will vary in accordance to which side of the fence one is on. Any NYC union must go on strike if necessary out of principle. This way, the city will know that any union will not be intimidated by the Taylor Law. I would hate to see this TWU strike talk go on SubTalk for the next 6 weeks! Both sides have to talk tough. The union is elected and paid by it's members and management has to be on the side of the public. It is the nature of the beast! Mark my words: we will all go to bed on 12/14 with prospects of a settlement looking bleak, and wake up 12/15 with either a settlement or extension. Guys: don't get too hung up about a possible strike. Willie will never allow a strike, because if it happens, he loses his due checkoff and the last thing his cronies want to do is to go out to the work locations asking for dues money! Wildcat strike? No way, the workers are not united. The TA has suceeded in the philosophy of "Divide & Conquor." From this point on, I will not address this topic since I will be biased since I and my fellow transit workers on this board have a financial interest in this! I am confident of the outcome: TWU members will feels screwed and the public will think they got too much! Just like when the landlords and tenants have their haggling every couple of years!
"I would hate to see this TWU strike talk go on SubTalk for the next 6 weeks!"
I agree with that AND am also very pleased that the discussion so far hasn't ended up in a rock throwing contest (as it has been several times before). A little bit of understanding will be helpful for the "customers" and "management" that read the posts here. But there is a point where it's enough alrerady.
Mr t__:^)
Listen to this man he's trying to tell you that management either doesn't understand the mood of the membership right now OR thinks they have the power to beat them up & get what ever they want. If either of these positions is true then the union needs to wake them up. If that means a strike then maybe some heads will roll at the MTA/TA. The Labor Relations suit will be shot in public if things go wrong, but maybe the politations will want someone else's head.
On the other hand maybe Mr-46 is just ONE angry man ..... we'll see.
Mr t__:^)
Trust me Mr.T__:^), read from Harold, Alex, Anthony, Brian, Bill, and the thousands of us in transit. My facts are right on,(I research them first) and the opinions I expess are shared by the majority of us. But yeah, I am one ANGRY MAN.
I too believe your assesment of management's current stand, they are either holding out no matter what because they know something we don't, or they're incredibly misinformed. Those layers of insulating mid-level managers?
This is why I won't hazzard a guess as to the outcome. Also I don't trust Willie James and his team. But hey, I'll get my turn.
Chris R. Your HATRED of the working CLASS is obvious. And don't give me any of that Joe Mc Carthy "What are you some kind of commie" line that those of your ilk are so good at spitting out at people who you disagree with. FACT: COMMUNIST CHINA maintains its brutalitaritan grip on it's people because Multinational Corporations love the way the "worker's cadres" enforce management perogative, Caning anyone? that is the reality of free trade. The only diffrence between the hated dictatorship of the cold war era and the "Most favored" trade partner of today is the fact that the bloody handed dictators of today allow international fatcats to bring their profits out. Businessmen, for the most part, absent matrix regulation and a 75% tax bracket are a pathetic cancer on the human race. BTW, solve the health care mess by having doctors form their own mutual health insurance company and starve out the insurance bean counters.
How can I hate myself? I just refuse to blindly follow the "hate the rich" attitude many of our politicians use to cover their own inadequacies.
As a prospective future employee of the NYCTA you should be worried of what you'll inherit if we don't strike longer time to reach top pay currently 3 years proposal 5 years to reach top pay. few sick days with pay is another one. health benefits slashed and more co pays. Harrasment for use of sick leave and god forbid if you're injured on the job and go on workers compensation need i say more everything looks plush and comfortable from the outside just wait till your employed by TA and you find it isn't what you ASSUME it to be. Plenty of people get hired and plenty more quit ... I have no qualms about doing my job and receive a decent salary and benefits and get treated decently but we have to FIGHT to improve or have more rights taken away a managements discretion...
Glad to know you think so many of these union jobs are easily replaceable. Not only do you lose the people on the front lines - TO, CR, BO and SA, but all the support people you never see - MoW, Third Rail Power, RCI, CED etc. Who will train all these people - the supervisors? What happens during the training time - hope nothing breaks down? And while I don't know training times for other titles, the standard traing time for CR is 5 weeks, TO is 70 days in the IRT, 99 days in the BMT/IND, and even at that length, the problem ratio is pretty high. No way in hell would I ever ride a train operated by someone with 30 days of training as you suggest.
Unfortunately ANY type of job action other than striking CAN be legally considered breaking the Taylor Law. That is why whenever there is a summons slowdown in the Police Dept. you NEVER hear anything about it by ANY PBA offical.
Jeff, I have been wondering when the NYPD started hiring people with college credits, did those new POs have a more active role in their union? Did more cops with the degree participate in ticket writing slowdowns and attend PBA meetings than without? I have a glimmer of hope that these open competetive Train Operators will read both sides of the coin as they work for the NYCTA and I also hope that this new initiative will backfire in the face of the NYCTA. Or maybe the TA has that figured out and will only call those who worked at McDonalds for 5 years.
No, actually the rank & file are much less labor oriented now than ever. Remember cops by nature are usually very conservative which is also anti-labor. Also cops work a lot of strike details and sometimes get a negative view of picketers. Although cops are generally anti-city and anti-Rudy they are usually very apathetic when it comes to job actions and slowdowns. They are very afraid of the Taylor Law. It is very hard to get any type of action going. Even though I am a big labor sypathizer, I should be glad about it as I am now technically a part of management since my promotion. One good thing is the supervisor's unions, the SBA (sergeants) and the LBA (lieutenants) are working closely with the PBA in contract negotiations and are on the same side. They know they are getting screwed just as much as the cops and in unity there's strength. Is that happening with the other city unions?
Actually the other punicipal unions have been conferencing with TWU because their contracts all come up in the next year. SEIU, DC37, UFT, etc.
If we do poorly, then the pattern bargaining that the city tries to impose on all of us will cause a domino reaction.
What would happen if after negotiations stalled, a rash of low speed derailments or other "accidents" broke out all over the system. After all you can't be responsible for the action of a bunch of punk teens ::wink wink:: who run around the tunnels and jam spikes in the rail joints ::wink wink:: or short out the 3rd rail ::wink wink:: or damage the signaling system ::wink wink:: or leave dead, rotting fish all over the tunnels ::wink wink wink::, now can you?
I imagine that eventually someone would either spill the beans as to who these ::wink wink:: punk teens were or they'd just be caught in the act. Then those ::punk teens:: should be charged with various property crimes up to perhaps even attempted murder if they intentionally derailed a train.
wink wink.
I would hate to think that any mentally compentant person would suggest such a thing. Deliberately derail a moving subway train? The average subway train with 1,600 customers weighs over 1 million Lbs. at 6 MPH the force generated is over 9 million ft/lbs. Let that hit a few support columns and you could have a street cave in on top of a train. If that's the state of your mental process, one of us is in the wrong venue.....
You'd do it on non revenue trains, in a controled maner at key points that yould completely tie up the system. I was just sugesting an alterante way the workers could show the TA who's in charge. Hey, that's what they did in the old days. If the employer was unfair, the workers would burn the factory down.
And, of course, when the workers burned down the factory, the owner just pulled up stakes for somewhere else. The Luddites, having destroyed their livelyhood, starved.
If the owner could even afford to rebuild anywhere. Workers must organize so they can use legal process to achieve their objectives. but FAIRNESS,is the watchword so all classes can prosper.
No factory, no job Be politically active Rebuild the three legged stool of prosperity Big Government, Big Labor, Big Business. Violence is the way of the fool.
Hahahahah, Mike, I've been in this business a long time. What controls a train is the tracks. Once the train comes off the tracks it is out of control. There are no controlled derailments. The path and amount of damage are unpredictable. What about the train operator. Do you warn him first? Or is he just a sacraficial lamb? Any such act would be an act of total irresponsibility.
BTW: Do you have any idea what the criminal penalty for sabotage is? I'm quite sure our resident attorney form Chicago can give you an idea. My suggestion is back to the drawing board
Fighters for Justice know that Violent crimes (IMMORALITY) destroy ALL standing ANYONE has against injustice. Anyone who sabotages a public transit vehicle deserves JAIL FOREVER OTOH, non violent civil disobedience :~)
What the hell are you smoking?
-Hank
whatever he's beens smoking make sure no one else gets into it!
Hey!! All I'm saying is that when the law gives management all the power you need to resort to "other means" to achieve fairness. If the TA is screwing you then you screw the TA. I admit that my first statment was rather unrealisitc. I had meant it as a little tounge in cheek, but I guess I should have labeled it as such. However if the workers aren't willing to band together and take what action they can against the TA then they deserve what they get. If they employees as a whole did whatever they could to hinder train service the TA would eventually get the point and give in. Show the TA that it gets what it pays for.
So, if your union leadership won't fight for you...aren't you to blame for electing them in the first place?
NO ONE has the right to take the law into their own hands. When you accepted a job with the TA, you knew fully well that one of the things you were giving up was a right to strike, because it is illegal.
If there is actually a strike, I only hope Rudy and company have the balls to pursue in courts the strongest possible sanctions against the union for violating the law.
I bet you wouldn't have the balls to say that to the thousands of teamsters members who elected to have the Manhattan District Attorney's office investigate their election fraud practices and union misrepresentation. Carey was eventually replaced by James Hoffa Junior in the first of indictments against corrupt union leaders. Now as for your assumption that when something is illegal, people will be nice and not break the law or even worse, lawmakers won't look the other way. OJ Simpson broke the law, taxpayers of Boston broke the law by dumping their tea but more importantly if 6000 trains and buses aren't running because of lawbreakers, what are YOU going to do about it. Every vote counts. Bill Clinton got re-elected because of the "silent majority", those who might have suspected Vincent Foster was murdered, those who suspected that Bill broke the laws with Whitewater, those who suspected that Hillary was involved as well but he went on to a second term because YOU didn't vote. When they violated the law, Janet Reno looked the other way because the American Citizens not only did NOT demand his head, they put him in office a second time even after Paula Jones. I see it now that more New Yorkers complain about parking tickets than they do about subway service, that is only if they will get a ticket for drinking an open cup of coffee on the train. Face it, there are those down here who want a riot but you can't blame the union, blame the subway workers, your neighbors, your friends as THEY will be the ones to ratify a strike, not the union. By the way, I'd be very happy to pay back the two day fine for the days I intend not to come in to work. I can't wait to hand my check to Guiliani as I look into his eyes and see his Senate run go up in flames with city voters.
It is only unfortunate that any striking city transit workers cannot be treated in the same manner that the striking Air Traffic Controllers were by President Reagan.
The 2 day fine is laughable...the law should be strengthened so that the penalty for illegal strikes is a real deterrent...if the fine were a week's pay for each day of an illegal strike, that MIGHT do something.
The attitude you seem to have...that there are a lot of you, so you should be able to disregard the law...is disgusting. Is this what you want to teach your children--that you can disregard the law when you think it is right to do so?
As I said before, it is only unfortunate that any strikers will not get the penalty they so richly deserve, the loss of their jobs. Perhaps the certainty of waiting on an unemployment line would make you and your kind behave like something more than a bunch of dirty rabble.
If Guiliani tried to get Senate support by demanding Taylor Law penalties of one week for every day off the job, he wouldn't get the AFL-CIO to give him one damn vote. The Labor movement may be a minority today but the politicians still beg for their votes.
So what if there are so many of us willing to break a law? This country was based on making AND breaking laws. Where would we be today without the Boston Tea Party? Huh? I think the real problem with this country is there are too many lawyers making decisions for you and me and they are also making $$$ in the process. If I choose to break the law, let me lie in my bed and leave it at that because even if there was a 5 day penalty, I'd still shut down as much service as I can.
Like I said before...it is thugs like you who make a mockery of our laws that are our problem. You have a problem with Fuhrer Rudy...vote his ass out of office...but to break the law just because you arent getting what you want is wrong.
Like I said before, unfortunately the subway is a critical item for NYC...or you should all get the same treatment the air traffic controllers did from President Reagan. If you strike in violation of the law, it is what you deserve...maybe if you knew that youd be feeding your families on unemployment checks youd be a little less ready to behave like unwashed rabble.
I remember the Air Traffic controllers being offered their jobs a year or two after the strike so maybe they weren't wrong after all, eh? Our blight in the TA has nothing to do with Rudy because the MTA is a state agency. Rudy's power ended with the school passes and the Transit Police Department. Hahaha. George hasn't bothered with us because he was hired because of the upstate voters. The real thugs are the ones who write the laws in the first place. Why is it legal for airline and railroad personel to go on strike. Because it is us, workers at the NYCTA who are discriminated against. Maybe it is wrong to break a law to go on strike in the subway but look at the negative press Guiliani gets and all the publicity Al Sharpton gets when he breaks the law. Why doesn't the city of NY issue parking tickets to those who double park in front of a church on Sunday morning? Hundreds of them are breaking the law. By the way please save some of your money for a horse and carriage on December 15th so your "rabble" can ride to work with you.
My most profound disrespect
The Thug
The difference is you KNEW, when you took your job, that it would be illegal for you to strike. Having known this in advance, if you didnt like it, you shouldnt have taken a job there.
If youre looking for sympathy, wrong place, bub. Whatever you get you richly deserve
I guess i got my answer you are a moron....
Yes, I will get the pleasure of watching the TA brass sweating out their visit to the governor's office worrying about their jobs. Ill GLADLY pay a penalty but MTA brass and board members are appointed so they will not F*** us because they can LOSE their jobs. And bureaucrats like you will have to take alternate means of transportation so if you think it is ok for us to get screwed by the MTA, we will have no choice but to screw you. By the way, what makes you think that the MTA won't lockout the members on day one, like they did in 1980? You may not have a choice in the matter one way or another and YOU will have to live with it, not just me.
My vow not to talk about this didn't last too long. Somebody needs an attitude adjustment and it is not me! You are a very hostile man who is anti transit worker. With the Taylor Law on managements side, I see no incentive for the TA/MTA to bargain fairly. There is a principle involved here: that management, with this law on their side, cannot bully the union around. Individuals do not go on strike as you suggest, they have to follow the will of the union leadership. Do you make a 6 figure salary? I don't and never will, but you talk like a tough guy who does with the servants in the house and chauffeur driven limo. My car is 10 years old. And you think transit workers are rich!
Sorry, pal. When I took this job, no where in any of the paper that TA gave me did it say I couldn't strike. It's only now that they saw fit to let everybody know.
Unwashed rabble? Spoken like a true thug. The ones who wear a suit and tie, and call themselves the filthiest name of all: management.
We are not calling you names, so please cease calling us them, before Dave deletes the whole thread. Let's keep this a forum of ideas and opinion. Let's not let it degenerate into incivility.
With that said:
Break the law because you aren't getting what you want?
HEY DUDE! EVER HEAR OF MOHATMAS GHANDI OR MARTIN LUTHER KING JR?
The true gall, of comparing yourselves to Gandhi, and to Martin Luther King Jr., both of whom fought true and incredible injustice, is not to be believed.
You have other options available to you. You can turn out your members to protest. You can use the media and the exposure it grants. But when you accepted a job with the TA, you knew in advance that one of the rights you gave up was the right to strike for redress of grievances.
You and your compatriots are quick enough to call "management" to account for any failure on its part to abide by the rules of law in dealing with you. Why should you not be held to the same standard?
Barry, check this out: www.osc.state.ny.us/divisions/pubauth/page262.html
Too many chiefs making above $100,000 a year. All hourly employees, myself as a train operator make less than 1/2 of that. That is why we need to strike if we don't get a good contract. Some of us can't survive on base salary. TA don't need all those managers making the big $$$. Hourly needs it more!
Barry, check this out: www.osc.state.ny.us/divisions/pubauth/page262.html
Too many chiefs making above $100,000 a year. All hourly employees, myself as a train operator make less than 1/2 of that. That is why we need to strike if we don't get a good contract. Some of us can't survive on base salary. TA don't need all those managers making the big $$$. Hourly needs it more! Brian
Don't obviscate. I'm not comparing ourselves to Ghandi and
King. I pointed out YOUR faux pas by claiming that just
because we believe a law is unjust doesn't mean we have
the right to break it.
Your right that we do have other options. The plan is to
exersise them all, and use a strike only as a last resort.
Read my latest post on negotiation updates, to see why
this last option is unfortunately becoming an
inevitability.
And we never gave up the RIGHT to strike, we merely accept
that there would be PENALTIES for doing so. We are NOT
slaves, and NO agency any where could ever compel us to
work against our will.
Remember: Larry Reuter may run the Authority, BUT WE RUN
THE TRAINS!
Mr Plopkin are we starting this again. HOW DARES YOU!!!! As Bob Grant would say in my case, GET OFF MY TRAAAIN!!!! You have not answered my question as to how we "knew" in advance that we gave up a right. We never gave up that right, the lawmakers shoved it down our throats in a discriminatory fashion, one that singles out subway and public service workers in NYC but not the Federal workers like LIRR, Metro North and Amtrak.
On a lighter note, I will take your advice to use the media and protesting workers. I invite you to join me in front of MTA headquarters on Dec. 15 on the picket line with my comrades and, using the media's camera crews, utilize the exposure it grants. Nobody would have voted for the Taylor Law back in 1966 and nobody hired is forced to know before swearing themselves in. It is a law but a law soon to be broken. Next time you blames the TWU for failing to bargain in good faith with management, look at a copy of our conract.
Sincerely,
Your favorite Thug from the TWU
let me put this mildly, you are a moron or aleast appear to be one.
without the municipal employees vote and there is a huge chunk of us in the city not employed by NYCTA who also get shafted by the taylor law politicians would be crapping in their chairs without our VOTE. See if we don't receive a share of the wealth the city has received that every major union represented employee doesn't strike all at once.
I don't remember people crying this way during major league baseball strike and people came flying back to the ball parks.
Thanks Anthony, I second your remark. Mr Plopkin takes a limo to work and doesn't want to hear reality that every democrat and republican makes phone calls to the AFL-CIO looking for Labor support during an election. Did every Bostonian get arrested during the Boston Tea Party and for not paying taxes? What would happen if Guiliani writes a new law mandating public bathrooms closed during off hours and 50,000 New Yorkers use the streets at the same time? Would you not break the law Mr Plopkin? Would 50,000 New Yorkers be sent to Rikers all at once? The Taylor is an act of discrimination as railroad and airline workers have a federally protected right to strike. Congress can ONLY impose a cooling off period to which after they can RESUME striking. Why can Amtrak go but not us? We can go on strike, even if we are violating a court order and if in this case the AFL-CIO supports us by Teamster slowdowns and shutdowns in other unions, how can we not have the Taylor Law overturned. Then we wouldn't be breaking the law, would we? By the way Barry, I'll be on the picket line at 43rd and Madison in front of the MTA building. Please see me so we can shoot the S**T.
I agree
I agree
Yes, I definitely agree! People like Jefferson, Franklin, Adams and Hancock should all be executed for breaking the law by dumping tea in Boston Harbor, firing at Redcoat officers and undermining the power and sovereignty of his Royal Majesty King George III by declaring independence.
I don't know about the gripes that the TA employees have against the TA executives, but a crime is no crime if it's committed against injustice.
"Treason is an excuse invented by the victors for hanging the losers."
Benjamin Franklin
Just like "fair" and "justice" are in the eyes of the beholder. Good quote Dan.
Thanks, I'll add that to my list of "Quotes that I Use When I Talk About Things."
How bout "What goes around comes around" or "Do on to others what others have done on to you"? I think those apply here too.
What Reagan did to the air traffic controllers was despicable!!! I actually liked him before that but was completely against him afterward!!! And believe it or not, he was once the president of the Screen Actor's Guild, a union.
By the way, I consider to this day ANY air traffic controller a SCAB
hmm I wonder if Reagan was competent enough to make the decision to do a mass firing of those Air Traffic COntrollers?
Oh, I'm sure glad you work for such a wonderful employer.
You seem to have so little empathy for those of us who
work for Satan.
Let me ask you: if a majorty of the citizenrey violate a
law, doesn't that make the law moot? isin't it America
where the majority rules? The speed limit is a joke on the
highways of NYC. 50? Who does 50 when there's no traffic?
That Grand Central is like the Indy 500! So according to
your strict interpretation of the law, all those drivers
are guilty. (please let's not start a thread on the speed
limit) I submit that the public at large has a right to
determine it's own destiny. The TWU membership as a
microcosm therefore shoud share that right. Binding
arbitration? Taylor Law? Those are for a fair and just
world. The world IS NOT fair. And justice is for those who
dare demand it.
Before you sit in judgement of us and call us selfish,
look in the mirror. You're whining about a day or two of
inconvienience. We have to live with this for 25 years or
more.
"but you knew that before you took the job"
Yeah we did. So now we are demanding a contract that allows us to be treated with respect, and protects us from abuse.
Because there is a condition that exists somewhere, in your opinion we have to live with it, because we knew it was there when we arrived. With that attitude, nothing would ever get done.
The pioneers would never have gotten west, those mountans are too rugged. But they knew that before they got there.
The troops at Normandy had a terrible time, so many were killed. But they should have expected that.
Better yet! When the Founding Fathers threw all that tea into Boston harbor: they should have known that King George was gonna be pissed!
Just because there's a law doesn't make it just!
Get off your high horse, and make a trip on my train, or flag the tracks, or clean resistor grids, change brake shoes, drive a bus down 5th Av. trouble shoot signals or swing a hammer on the Williamsburg bridge BEFORE you dare judge me and my bothers and sisters.
Better yet Mr Plopkin, please check out one of our signal division member's website at www.newyorkcitytransit.com and see how up close and personal your attitude can be found in NYC transit managers. See how innocent workers are framed so bigshots of your caliber can keep their jobs while the government looks the other way. Read about the 135 St A line derailment of 1997 where the TA forced a foreman to lie under oath to scapegoat a signal maintainer not originally blamed in the wreck. The IG didn't care either of the fact that the TA has no oversight for its bloated managerial workforce while at the same time we have to pick up their slack. By the way I thank you for your compliment of a "thug" as many times, the only way for me to avenge an unnecessary dismissal or write up is to act like one and follow ALL rules and encourage others to follow the same so when you wonder why some trains have lost their speed, it may not be because of field shunting, it may be that there is a little "thug" in everybody. Therefore I will continue posting as "The Thug" to remind you that with freedom of expression there are always two sides to a story and neither one should be silenced. Happy Holidays from The Thug.
I though that there was an agreement that the 'Satan' referrences would stop. I hate to see excellent points overlooked because people are turned off by that refference.
There's a lot to be learned by those of us who don't work for the TA. We don't know what's happening on the inside, only the information provided by our friends here on SubTalk gives us a general picture. Who knows? Maybe when we've worked for many years as T/Os and C/Rs, we'll have the same attitude as those who were dissatisfied with the practices of the TA. The bottom line is we won't know what our friends here have experienced until we, the regular railfans, have experienced those injustices. There has to be a reason for all this dissatisfaction. When there's a problem, it needs to be corrected! Arbitration is most appropriate to settle a dispute.
In summary, my friends out here have every right to strike. They are no different than the employees at say the Daily News and the old NYNEX telephone company. Years ago they striked, and who says TA employees can't? We have no right to say who can or who can't strike. I'll be honest and hope it doesn't come to that. I don't want to be inconvenienced by the strike, but a strike has a purpose and that is to seek justice for those who were wronged in some way.
I hope we can back to business of exchanging information in a friendly and objective manner, as there has already been enough tension. Let's not add to it anymore.
-Stef
Excuse me Stef...they dont have a right to strike because there is a NYS law, the Taylor Law, that says they cannot. They knew of this law when they took their jobs.
True, true. But there's a lot of dissatisfaction with how the TA's being run, and those unhappy with the current situation would like to do something about it. A law is a law, but men sometimes do things that the rest of us don't necessarily have to agree with. The worst thing that could happen is those out on strike will get docked pay. But they might have a purpose.... If you're unhappy about something wouldn't you want somebody to listen to your grievances?
-Stef
Let me correct one perception that you have. There is a lot of dissatisfaction with the way certain divisions of the TA are run. It seems that there is far more dissatisfaction in RTO than in some other operating divisions. Within the Division of Car Equipment there are some shops with extremely high morale while others are zero. I think that a lot has to do with the way local management handles the directives from "The High Command". Lack of morale is usually due to poor local management.
I hope that upper management can work to make things better.
-Stef
Steve my friend you are 100% categorecly (sic) CORRECT!
Has any one here besides me ever read the one minute manager? Apparently no one at 370 Jay St. has!
That was the book back in the 80s about George Steinbrenner and Billy Martin, right?
[There's a lot to be learned by those of us who don't work for the TA. We don't know what's happening on the inside, only the information provided by our friends here on SubTalk gives us a general picture. Who knows? Maybe when we've worked for many years as T/Os and C/Rs, we'll have the same attitude as those who were dissatisfied with the practices of the TA. The bottom line is we won't know what our friends here have experienced until we, the regular railfans, have experienced those injustices. There has to be a reason for all this dissatisfaction.]
Job dissatisfaction is hardly unique to the TA. Workers have been complaining about their bosses ever since Eegrunk hired Ougaalk to assist in the woolly mammoth hunt. What does seem to be a bit unusual is the extent of the animosity. In part, that's something more or less inevitable within the public sector, but at least in some ways it reflects poorly on TA management.
It's not job dissatisfaction. Most of us love the job. We hate the people who run the place.
When your employer will lie and falsify evidence, in order to suspend, or suspend you for long periods of time for VERY minor infractions or will deny you days off for special events known well in advance, or force you to come in to work on your day off, YOUR day off! Under threats of 30 day suspenson, what else do you have but an engederment of hostility?
This is but a small sample of the crap TA does to us.
Once again I will state: although we know the TA is sitting on a pile of cash,
OUR GRIEVANCES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH MONEY!
I have mixed feelings regarding a strike. I certainly agree that the workers have some valid grieviances, but most workers do. I appreciate the job that the transit workers do and I realize that this city would come to grinding halt without their valuable service.
However, many of us in the private sector can't understand why they would want to strike. Sure, no one is going to get rich working for the TA, (and a agree, there are too many high paid managers who don't do anything and should be removed), but the workers do get paid fairly well for what they do. A good salary may be hard to live on by New York City standards, but I would be that the avarage salary of a transit worker is higher than many of the passangers who ride the subway.
On top of that, the workers have an excellent medical plan, a pension plan and good vacation policy. Most of us in the private scector don't have great medical plans and much fewer days off. If we are lucky we get a 401(k) plan (which is only our own money.) A real pension plan, what is that?
Also, the transit workers, since they are unionized, have job security and a place to go if they have a problem. The only place I have to go is to find another job, and I have also been told to hit the road over my career.
It would be best for everyone involved for the workers not to strike. They should still negotiate for the best settlement they can get, but a strike would burn too many bridges, (I meant that figuratively.)
Well, let's wait and see. Hopefully, a settlement can be reached, and a strike could be avoided only if each side is willing to listen to the other.
-Stef
its not simply about pay other factors include disciplinary practices, contract language in many respects needs clarification, benefits and working conditions. Crew facility and restroom conditions are deplorable.
The excellent medical plan ends up costing me more for my family than the plan at my wife's job, which she has to pay for - as a result, I'm covered by her plan. The pension plan - more of an enforced savings program for later on. I pay into it because I have no choice. The TA pays nothing. I have no control as to how it gets invested. Again, I would rather have my wife's 401(k) with the company's matching contribution. I will grant you the good vacation, if you don't mind waiting 10 to 12 years to get off when the kids are out of school. But even now, the TA wants to cut into our vacation.
Vacation? It takes 15 years of service to get to the full vacation available. It takes 4 years to get the full wage.
And when the turnover is factored in not a great deal of people nowadays get to full rate! Conductors in their second year bring home about $375 a week. Is that a lot?
I'm not complaining. I think the pay is fine as it stands. But please don't think we are getting over. Job security? Not with today's labor relations staff! All of us go to work every day living with a sword of Damocles over our heads, some in actual fear for their livelyhood.
But that's what management wanted.
Shop Man, I salute you. It's nice to know that Anthony, Harold, John and I have yet another friend here at SubTalk.
Let us all have a moment of silence and a five minute period of trains holding switching as we reach for the gold. No I don't desire a nice raise or medical benefits. I desire Joe Hoffman and Lawrence Reuter dressed in maids costumes cleaning my house on their hands and knees. I'd like to see Nat Ford at Hoboken Station filling in for the shoeshine guys. For once in my life, the thought of unemployment sounds fabulous.
Contract negotiations are in progress. However, right now I believe that the TWU (and Management) is just posturing for the media and membership right now. As the deadline approaches it will get heated and serious. Then you will hear the word 'STRIKE' thrown around. The fact is that a strike by the TWU would be a violation of The Taylor Law. The teeth of the Taylor Law is that any public employee covered by the law, who strikes, will be penalized 2 days pay for every day on strike. That's quite an incentive not to strike. A 5 day strike will result in 10 days of lost pay. If the TWU won a 4% raise for the first year, the taylor Law penalties would equal the raise. What is more likely is that the TWU and TA will submit to binding arbitration. After all, neither side really cares. The TWU will raise their dues no matter what and the TA & the parent MTA have no profit motive. If the salaries go up, the monies will be found either at the fare box or through increased subsidies. It's all for show...
I think it's good time for the TWU as neither George Pataki nor Rudy Giuliani wants the national attention of a transit strike. If the union makes realistic demands & gets most of what it wants there'll be no strike. If the suits in labor relations don't understand the big picture then there'll be a strike.
In the business world unions & strikes are becomming more important because the captians of industry are more and more short-sighted, i.e. how much money can EYE squeze out of this business for MYSELF before the stockholders catch me at it & I have to jump out of my ivory tower in my golden parachute.
My wife & I disagree about unions. She thinks they are just a way for her staff to find ways to get away with stuff. I've told her it is realy because the management there has no balls not because the union is too strong. People with mind sets like her's also haven't taken a lesson from history ... i.e. what management attitude toward it's works brought about unions in the first place ? Second thing to think about ... how has it happend that the rich have gotten so much richer then the rest of us in the past few years ?
Mr t__:^)
I heard an interesting fact the other day.
If you bought 1,000 shares of AOL 1n 1992 it cost you about $11,500.00. Today, if you held it, due to numerous stock splits you'd have 128,000 shares worth roughly $7.2 million. That's why the rich (and lucky) keep getting richer.
Keeping with the theme, both debt and savings eventually work like snowballs going downhill, and having one and not the other is why so many people are worse off today. The difference between saving up for each car and earning interest (because you transit exclusively when you are young) and borrowing for each car and paying interest, over the course of a lifetime, is huge. Same with the size of your downpayment. Forget credit card debt.
Lots of the poor who are getting poorer no longer know how to cook a meal from scratch -- they live on processed and fast food. Lots of middle income households "living paycheck to paycheck" are too high and mighty to use mass transit, or even carpool. And lots of those who cannot afford decent housing are unwilling to live outside Manhattan. Having done all three throughout my life, I don't find myself getting poorer. I never had all the stuff people feel entitled to to begin with, and don't miss it.
Yes, but these things kind of sneak up on you. Think back to the days when ONE bread winner could support a family, now two HAVE to work just to keep your head above water. It's been a very long time since I was able to BUY a new car, i.e. WHY do so many lease ? Why do your kids HAVE to move out of the city/state to have any kind of decent existance ? Those CDs that you have, do you realy think you're making any money on them, i.e. they're just barely keeping pace with the cost of living increases.
So, Larry do you still think that you're keeping pace ? I don't !
Mr t__:^)
I hate to tell you, but he reason you need 2 paychecks to support an average household is because the quality of life the average American expects these days costs a hell of a lot more than it did in the Leave it to Beaver days.
Your wife can stay home if:
You throw away your computer, VCR, cable box and the other electrical appliances that have been deemed a "necessity" over the past 20+ years
You don't send your kids to college. Most famailies didnt.
Stop going to fast food resturaunts. That's an expensive luxury that didn't exist much back in the day.
So you see, life got more expensive, you didn't get poorer.
Absolutely! Well said. Dear Abby, of all places, had a letter that I'll never forget that contrasted the 60-year-old writer's early married life (franks and beans for 3 years to save the down payment on a house) with that of her yuppie daughter (3-day "mental health" trips to Bermuda, new car every 2 years, etc.) who never seems to have any money.
The downside of the current Internet IPO madness is that Americans seem to believe in "hitting it big", i.e. the legitimate version of Lotto. In the '70s and '80s it wsa real estate (you were supposed to be able to make 10%/year ABOVE the inflation rate), now it's stock IPOs. There'll always be something.
It's all about SAVINGS. Either you can attempt to increase $$$ coming in, or decrease $$$ going out. As a nation, we seem to place far more faith in the former than the latter.
You've got it right. I've got a lot of data on this, any all physical mearsures of well being are way, way up. The social measures -- are kids growing up with their two parents -- are not, but that's not the result of economic trends, but personal choices. I've got a little spreadsheet I whip out at Thanksgiving, comparing the "Good Old Days" to the "Recent Bad Years." Its a hoot. And when the share of the population with a TV goes from 50 percent to 99 percent, you can't say the gains are concentrated at the top.
Two salaries? My Dad worked 60 hours per week and my Mon stayed home. And my wife and I work 60-70 hours per week, but sharing the work and home load. We have a lot more money than my parents did -- they never went to restaurants, and I didn't fly on an airplane until I was in college. And, my Dad was a college graduate -- in 1960 there were far more management and professional jobs than college graduates, while the reverse is true today.
I think part of what has happened is that the articulate are having to work a little harder, and have a little less job security, than in the past. They didn't mind laying off all the factory workers in the 1970s and 1980s, so they shouldn't complain when economic change results in them getting fired. The difference -- today you can get another job. Remember the 1970s as they really were!
My mother quit her job when she became pregnant with me. We lived on my father's salary throughout most of my childhood. We had 1 TV, no car, lived in an apartment where I had to share a room with my brother and never, never spent as lavishly as parents do today (designer clothes for a 9 year old? Give me a break).
My mother didn't resume working until my brother was 14 and both he and I were old enough to take care of ourselves. Having my mother home was a godsend. We may have been a poorer family financially, but my brother and I grew up to be happy, healthy adults with no major problems. So the next time I hear someone whine about being forced to have both parents work as an excuse for why little Johnny robbed the convienence store I just roll my eyes and thank god I grew up in the kind of family that I did with.
Having my mother at home and my father work so much was not a blessing. Mom pretty much lost her fastball, and was overwhelmed being home with three kids, no car, all the time. Dad left for work before I woke up and returned after I was asleep. So I like our deal better, especially since we have a two-legged stool -- if one of us loses a job, the other still has one. But everyone I know has at least one parent working part time, or at home, if not both. Some have one parent at home. As I said, its a matter of being willing to live in Brooklyn, ride mass transit, and not be extravagant otherwise.
My father in law was laying it on, how when he was a kid a guy could work behind the counter in a store and earn enough to raise a family by himself, and even sock away a few bucks. Oh, yeah, I said, what kind of car did he drive? No car. How big was his house? A one bedroom apartment in Flatbush. Where did he vacation? Day trips to Coney Island, or perhaps shared cottage for a week in Rockaway. There are hoards of immigrants living like that in NYC today, and liking it just fine.
Very good post Larry.
Thanks.
SudDude
[My father in law was laying it on, how when he was a kid a guy could work behind the counter in a store and earn enough to raise a family by himself, and even sock away a few bucks. Oh, yeah, I said, what kind of car did he drive? No car. How big was his house? A one bedroom apartment in Flatbush. Where did he vacation? Day trips to Coney Island, or perhaps shared cottage for a week in Rockaway.]
People want more today. Let's convert those old living standards to modern ones:
No car ----> Ford Expedition for husband, Jeep Cherokee for wife. Plus his 'n' hers Jet Skis.
Apartment in Flatlands ----> 3,000 square-foot house in top suburb.
Day trips/cottage ----> 1 week in Cancun, 1 week skiing in Aspen, 2 weeks in Europe.
Chris, I could definately identify with that. When I was growing up, I also had 1 TV, 1 bathroom, shared a bedroom with my older brother, had my mother home while my father worked 9-5 and no car. We didn't have any A/C either. And you want to know something, we were content with what we had. Today, both my wife and I work and we need help from our parents to make ends meet. I'm poorer than I was when I was growing up. The problem is that we are being bombarded with easy credit. Buy it now, pay for it later. Along with that mentality there comes consumer debt. Is there anyone that posts here that doesn't carry balances on their credit cards? If there is, speak your piece. You're indeed rare! Hey, man, give me the good ol' days when one income was enough, credit wasn't shoved down your throat, and prices were much more affordable.
I don't. Nor do I make car payments, although I own four licensed vehicles, three of which were purchased used. The only debt I have is my New Jersey house. I also don't have any savings to speak of, what with my younger daughter in college at the moment (and my older son taking a year off but still costing me lots of money). When we were younger we did carry too much debt, but we realized early on that it was foolish to do so, paid off the balances as quickly as we could, and resolved never to do it again. Once, when I was unemployed for a year and we had run through my severance and our savings, we ended up with some credit card debt again, but as soon as I had another job we stopped running up debt and when I got a good job we paid it off.
I agree, the temptation of easy credit is great, and it's offered far too freely. Our younger son (age 14) receives at least two offers a month for credit cards, no credit check required, with credit limits of $500 - $3000. Some of them know how old he is, from the text of their ads. He puts the offers straight into the recycle bin, and I hope he will always be that responsible. But many aren't. Our son-in-law (before he married our older daughter) had managed to get himself deeply in debt and ultimately declared bankruptcy. When we were growing up that was an unheard-of situation, only entered into by desparate people who were forever regarded as social outcasts. Now it's an easy thing to do that apparently carries almost no penalty (how many times have you heard the car dealers advertise "bad credit, slow credit, no credit, no problem"?) and is actively encouraged by many. When my younger daughter attended a Law School forum for prospective law students, several of the other prospective students (from the undergraduate school where the forum was held, not from my daughter's college) were discussing the advice given them by their advisor: borrow to the hilt to get through school, then declare bankruptcy six months after graduation. Instantly debt-free, and the government gets stuck with the $200K or so bill. The kids thought it was an excellent idea. Why shouldn't they take advantage of it? Everyone else does. Fortunately, my daughter has a sense of ethics that these students obviously lack.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
DON'T, DON'T,DON'T just throw away credit card offers SHRED THEM CAREFULLY. If I had a cat, It could get a credit card :~)
We do. Our paper recycle bin is really one of those $29.95 shredders from Staples or Office Max (can't remember which). The guys at the recycling center hate us for it because the shreddings blow around when they empty the can.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for sharing this with us. My hat is off to you for being able to turn things around and be debt-free. One thing that I found shocking was that a 14 year old could get credit card offers. Only after I was 30, and after paying off a 4-year car loan that my father co-signed for was I able to get a card. Now, I have several. I curse the day that I accepted the first offer. It's one big legalized racket, and the little guy, the consumer always loses.
Keep in mind that these offers are from the likes of MBNA and the other Delaware-based credit card banks. On the flip side of the coin, I have a 17-year-old daughter who is a senior in college already (four years younger than most of her classmates). Will any of the credit unions or banks where my wife and I do business issue her a card? No, not even with my co-signature (although they will issue me a separate account so she can be an "authorized user" and that I simply would not use). Reputable institutions do have age guidelines. Unfortunately, in her case, I'd like her to have an established credit record in her own name prior to going to law school next fall, and since she won't turn 18 until July that won't be possible unless we deal with a credit card bank. We've decided that isn't worth it, especially since your credit record is based not only on your payment history but on the source of your credit (a credit card from your credit union is usually even better than one from a top-notch bank, which in turn is better than one from MBNA or other such, etc.).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then a check card is a good idea, you won't have to carry cash and you will never be in debt. I have a credit card which is really that of my mother and there's an additional card with my name on it. I rarely use it. A CC is the only way to buy things online, and it's easier to use the card than carrying cash more than $100. I always get parents' permission for these, and they usually come out of my "allowance" (which BTW, I created myself, I used to get money on demand, but I feel that I ended up spending it too fast). The point with credit cards is that you have to know when to stop, before it reaches the point that you're buying with money you won't have when the bill comes.
The point with credit cards is that you have to know when to stop, before it reaches the point that you're buying with money you won't have when the bill comes.
That's easy when you're single and still living with your parents. When you have a family to support, you wind up taking cash advances just to pay bills. Unexpected and costly car repairs, unexpected and costly medical bills (insurance doesn't cover everything, and in your 40's or 50's, you're not as invincible as you were in your teens and 20's-health begins to fail, like hypertention, back problems, etc.), and other expenses involved in staying afloat, like rent, electric, gas, food, medicine, clothes, etc. When you run short of money, you have to do something to keep from winding up in the street. People also live off their credit cards when they're out of work. I've been there. The big problem is that society has become dependent on credit. That's exactly where the financial institutions (Citibank is an example) want you to be. The financial institutions are the ones that keep getting richer, at our expense. All that crap about SUV's and European vacations-I haven't been away on a vacation since 1993 and I own 2 cars, one 9 years old, the other 10. Not everyone who overextends on credit has all this stuff.
Sounds much like our situation - we lived off the credit cards for a while after severance and savings ran out (I was laid off in September 1994, remained totally out of work for 10 months and was seriously underemployed for the next six). Fortunately we didn't have any balances when it all started. And, like you, the last real vacation we took was in the summer of '93, when my former employer said "use it or lose it" and I had 10 weeks in the bank. Since then the only overnight trips we've taken have been to see our grandchildren in Nevada - one trip each year for both my wife and I - and for such things as parents' weekend at our younger daughter's college. And I haven't quite decided what to call my upcoming road trip with Margaret as she looks at law schools - nine days in a minivan, six law schools, 3500 miles - doesn't sound like a vacation to me, even if it is a change of scenery. (But Minneapolis and Chicago in December? Give me a break!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Everyone understands that you can get in the hole if you're sick, unemployed, or if you have your own business and run into trouble. That's why we have bankrupcy laws that help people get out from under.
What's different today, and a little bit sick, is the way people with none of those problems get themselves in the hole. My brother worked for a sub-prime lender, and he routinely saw people with incomes over $100,000 on the brink of bankrupcy, just from getting caught up in the American consumer thing. (He now works for a mutual fund company, having moved to the "forces of good" from the "forces of evil." Evil paid better).
The bastards hook 'em young. Years ago, you lived with your parents until you got married or saved up a chunk in the bank. This way, when the car broke down, you didn't have to borrow to fix it. Today, you have people who leave college in debt to the credit card companies! When I was in college, only a couple of seniors had cars. Today, in the suburbs, 16 year olds get cars. Young people want to fit in and measure up, so they get pulled along. After living on all their income and them some, they end up hurting when kids and other obligations arise. They feel bad, but its too late.
You're really bucking the culture here if you live below your means and put money in the bank. Advertizers spend billions telling you that if you don't have this or that, you are a loser. And those at the bottom get sucked in worse than the rest -- the ghetto and the Hamptons are the only place where people still pay more for brand names. People want to be in the middle class, and I resent the "upsizing" of what that means. AC? Cell phone? Cable? SUV? What next! The only extra expense to come along that we have judged well worth it is the PC and internet.
I think that a A/C is also well worth it. Central A/C should be considered a luxury. But bedrooms and the dining or living room can be air conditioned.
I agree, A/C is definately worth it, especially in North Carolina. But even in New Jersey it makes life a lot more comfortable. Our North Carolina house is cooled by one huge window unit and a couple of ceiling fans (it has a very open layout so that's possible), while our New Jersey house, being almost 250 years old, sprouts five window units of various sizes, as appropriate to their place in the house.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Being from the north and of an environmental bent, we try to avoid the A/C. Now, I'll admit last summer tested us, but we've got ceiling fans over every bed and never lost a night's sleep, despite all those days over 100. If we had A/C, we wouldn't have gone outside the entire summer. People say Florida is hot, but our trip to Disney World was a piece of cake.
A/C is worth it on the subway, where you're packed together. The heat isn't. I usually feel like I'm gonna faint.
I'm glad you can handle it - I could when I was younger, but not now! The part that gets to me is the humidity, not the heat - I've been out in the Arizona desert when it was past 100° but the humidity was so low I didn't mind it too much (on the other hand, I only got out of the van long enough to take a dozen pictures of a BNSF track gang at work).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't get me started on Urban Assault Vehicles! A teenager driving her Mom's Navigator took out the fire hydrant up the street from us about 2 AM today. Nobody hurt, but the entire neighborhood was awake for an hour or so. As it happens, the Navigator's owner works in my organization - she drives eight miles to the office at speeds not exceeding 45 MPH, by herself of course, and complains about her gas mileage. I suppose this incident will be her excuse to trade it for the Excursion she wants.
On a related note, our local fire chief lives around the corner and his in-laws are diagonally across the street from us. He drives a new Suburban (paid for by my tax dollars). But at least it's not the Range Rover they furnish the Chief of Police in an adjacent township. (And no, it's not a confiscated one either, they bought it brand new at the chief's request.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"But at least it's not the Range Rover they furnish the Chief of Police in an adjacent township."
That reminds me of something I saw once when I was up on (Chicago's) North Shore on business (via the Metra UP-North, of course) and I saw a Range Rover or some sort of SUV in the markings of the local police department. This had to be in either Winnetka or Glencoe, and both suburbs have been developed for a century now and all the roads are paved. There's no need for a police department in a town with all its roads paved to use SUVs as patrol cars!
[That reminds me of something I saw once when I was up on (Chicago's) North Shore on business (via the Metra UP-North, of course) and I saw a Range Rover or some sort of SUV in the markings of the local police department. This had to be in either Winnetka or Glencoe, and both suburbs have been developed for a century now and all the roads are paved. There's no need for a police department in a town with all its roads paved to use SUVs as patrol cars!]
But what about snowstorms?
If there's a legitimate need for 4WD there are a lot of less expensive choices than a Range Rover. Ford, Jeep, and Chevy/GM all produce mid-to-large size 4WD vehicles that are less than half the cost of a Range Rover, and the Ford and Jeep models also have twice the reliability (Chevy/GM announced a major recall today on 4WD components, according to the radio this evening, otherwise I would probably have put them in the same category).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also, now that GM no longer makes rear-wheel-drive passenger cars, they're trying to push sport-utes (usually GMC Yukons) to the Police Depts. that refuse to accept front-wheel drive cars for reasons (real or perceived) of durability, complexity and/or commonality w/the rest of their fleets. That's why many previously all-GM police forces now find themselves driving Ford Crown Vics -- the only full-size RWD sedan left.
That all said, a Range Rover does seem a little excessive. But I'd believe it in Winnetka.
[That reminds me of something I saw once when I was up on (Chicago's) North Shore on business (via the Metra UP-North, of course) and I saw a Range Rover or some sort of SUV in the markings of the local police department.]
The thought just occurred to me - it might have been a drug forfeiture.
[how many times have you heard the car dealers advertise "bad credit, slow credit, no credit, no problem"?]
I have heard that those ads are scams. People who end up buying from those places get ripped off royally. In a typical deal, the dealer buys a car for $5,000 and sells it for $10,000, with the buyer putting down $3,000 and borrowing the rest at an extremely high interest rate. Payments have to be made weekly, and the vehicle will be repossessed in short order if payment is late. Not to mention the fact that the car is likely to be a piece of junk.
Some of those bad-credit ads say "all applications accepted." That means that anyone can come in and fill out an application. Of course, it might very well be rejected, but the ad didn't say "approved," did it?
They are. One of my son-in-law's relatives is in the car business and specializes in such deals, albeit mostly with new cars. The gimmick is to purchase the car at full retail, 20% or more down, high interest (15.9% on up - in Nevada the usury ceiling is 33%), seven year payments on most cars. Repossessions aren't as high as you might think, but from what he's told me they still run around 15% after one year and 20% total. Most of these loans don't actually last more than three years because the person's financial situation has usually improved enough to refinance at a more reasonable rate and/or to enable them to trade the vehicle and obtain more conventional financing on their next one. The GM, Mazda, and Kia credit arms actually underwrite a good number of these loans, and it wouldn't surprise me if other manufacturers' credit arms do the same. (How many people would even buy a Kia otherwise?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re "guaranteed auto credit" rip-offs]
[They are [rip-offs]. One of my son-in-law's relatives is in the car business and specializes in such deals, albeit mostly with new cars. The gimmick is to purchase the car at full retail, 20% or more down, high interest (15.9% on up - in Nevada the usury ceiling is 33%), seven year payments on most cars. Repossessions aren't as high as you might think, but from what he's told me they still run around
15% after one year and 20% total.]
It sounds to me like buyers go for those deals as much out of greed as out of necessity. Most of them probably would be far better off with used cars. But no, they probably just *have* to have something bright and shiny and new, and therefore end up paying through the nose. An outgrowth of this country's car culture, I'd say.
A 20% repossession rate is horrifying, no matter how you slice and dice it. But I suspect the dealers are still making plenty of money on these scams.
Oh, they are! According to my son-in-law's cousin they are their most profitable deals. Most salesmen, on the other hand, aren't interested in dealing with someone like me - I pay cash, so they don't have the opportunity to hide any profit in their paperwork fees plus they don't get a kickback from the finance company. And, since it's a cash sale and not a lease or a dealer-financed vehicle, there's no fine print requiring me to come back to the dealer for service.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Talk about ridiculous credit offers, just today I got an offer saying that I had been pre-approved for a $100,000 home equity loan. It was addressed to me and me alone. Which is rather amusing in that the house is (and always has been) in my wife's name.
Talk about ridiculous credit offers, just today I got an offer saying that I had been pre-approved for a $100,000 home equity loan. It was addressed to me and me alone. Which is rather amusing in that the house is (and always has been) in my wife's name.
I get those stupid offers all the time from the banks that I have my credit cards with. They want you to take out a debt consolidation loan. That way, if you default, your house gets taken away. If you don't go for the debt consolidation loan and default on your credit cards (bankruptcy), then the creditors are SOL. As for these home equity (debt consolidation) loans, all it takes to start getting offers is having a considerable size debt. They usually don't even know whether you're a home owner or not. The credit reporting agencies report to all your creditors how much you owe.
I get them too, and the only debt I have is my mortgage. For that matter, one came in our older son's name, and he lives with us and until recently had never been employed! Maybe it's because they know he needs a warehouse for all his trains...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[When my younger daughter attended a Law School forum for prospective law students, several of the other prospective students (from the undergraduate school where the forum was held, not from my daughter's college) were discussing the advice given them by their advisor: borrow to the hilt to get through school, then declare bankruptcy six months after graduation. Instantly debt-free, and the government gets stuck with the $200K or so bill.]
In addition to its dubious morality, that advice is quite wrong. Student loans aren't dischargeable in bankruptcy.
Are you sure? I believe you are right as far as loans directly from the government are concerned (Stafford, Perkins, and possibly some others) but I don't think that covers government-insured private loans, which make up over 80% of student borrowing today (and essentially all grad school borrowing, since the Stafford and Perkins limits have usually been exhausted by that time).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[re bankruptcy dischargeability of student loans]
[Are you sure? I believe you are right as far as loans directly from the government are concerned (Stafford, Perkins, and possibly some others) but I don't think that covers government-insured private loans, which make up over 80% of student borrowing today (and essentially all grad school borrowing, since the Stafford and Perkins limits have usually been exhausted by that time).]
I'm reasonably sure but not quite 100% sure :-) I'll check when I get into work on Monday.
As long as we've gotten far afield from transit, I've got something to say about student loans. While they've obviously enabled many people to get higher educations, I strongly suspect they've also enabled colleges to boost their tutiton charges to astronomical levels, far beyond general inflation.
As long as we've gotten far afield from transit, I've got something to say about student loans. While they've obviously enabled many people to get higher educations, I strongly suspect they've also enabled colleges to boost their tutiton charges to astronomical levels, far beyond general inflation.
Is that any different from health insurance and the cost of medical care? It's like a cat chasing its tail. As one cost goes up, the other goes up to match it. How high is high.
Yeah, the "non-profit" health care and higher education systems are the biggest ripoffs out there. I got a facts and figures piece from my former college, and did the math. Profs teach an average of 2.2 classes per term (four to six hours per class, 15 weeks per term, two terms). But at least they teach. They barely account for half of those on the staff. And the staff only accounts for 55 percent of the budget (I can only hope non-wage benefits are counted in the other 45 percent: otherwise where does it go)?
This is the Democratic end of our dual ripoff system.
Our parents supported us on one check because they didn't spend any money on: TVs; VCRs; Camcorders; Air conditioning; Computers; Cell phones; Maids; Day care; Personnal trainers; Cars; HiFi's; Pet psychologists and a plethora of other recent toys. Any family that would be willing to live as our parents did could get by on one paycheck. Probably even better.
Compare today's poor to yesterday's poor and another fact becomes evident: the poor are also getting richer. Seems pretty fair all around doesn't it? Unless of course you want the rich to get poorer.
We seem to live in an age where the conventional thing to do is hate those who have more than us, because they must have achieved their wealth dishonestly. (Why else would the government be going after Bill Gates and Microsoft). In 1993 when Clinton raised taxes, it only directly affected people in the top bracket, most people cheered it because they felt it was time that those "rich people" paid in what they deserve.
Taxation in its truest sense is the redistribution of wealth. Obviously, in a free society, when the government is offering everyone services, the people should pay according to their ability.
However, when someone in the 15% bracket feels that someone in the 39.6% bracket isn't paying his fair share of taxes, then we have a real problem. It is these types of attitudes that keep the 39.6% people in thier luxury cars and off mass transit. Without their support, we will never get the type of mass transportation network an international city like New York needs and deserves.
No, it's because the smarter person saw the potential in AOL and bought the stock. Barring lotteries and inheritances, most "rich" people are rich becuase of talent, hard work and intelligence.
[most "rich" people are rich becuase of talent, hard work and
intelligence.]
I think we've just been insulted ? You didn't realy mean it the way it sounds do you ?
I feel that the captains of industry have a different mind set today then the previous generation. They don't run a company for the future, they don't merge because it's good for business ... it's all about MONEY for THEM. Case in point, the guy at the top of Disney who is a Billionare, what is he going to do with that amount of money ? What about "The Donald". It's just too much money. They don't seem to ever have enough.
This is a little different that the McCartney's, i.e. Paul & his late wife. Bill Gates seems to want to spend some of his. Wang at Computer Associates is anotherone who is spreading around some of his money, but there is far too few in this group today.
There was another part of this thread that said we need these guys to be willing to spend money on mass transit for the rest of us. I can't relate to that. I thought is was the politations that needed to want to do grand things with mass transit as one of them.
Mr t__:^)
You've got a serious case of "class envy". It's not immoral to make a TON of money, as long as you don't break the $#@& law.
"... it's all about MONEY for THEM" And why do any of the rest of us go to work? Why shouldn't captains of industry be allowed the same drives that motivate us to get out of bed and do a hard days work? Especially when the desire for money on the part of job creators allows the rest of us to have jobs which create MONEY for US.
Maybe I've got "class envy", maybe it's my generation, maybe it's my work experience ...
- My first job in Hartford was for a couple of firms that linked up to sell insurance in the US. It didn't work out ... we all ended up in the street.
- My third job was in Boston, for the gov. They decided to downsize & offered me a job in NYC.
- My next job was for Pan Am ... after 15 years you know what happened, but you probaly don't know about the carpet bagers that came in at the end just to get rich while letting the company die.
I don't mind folks making lots of money, but when it's more then a few millions a year I think it's a little excessive. Why do they need to make so much & what are they going to do with it. This too I could accept if it wasn't for the inconsiderate & selfish way this generation of captins deals with their companies & workers. What I'm saying is that if you're running a multi billion dollar business that employees thousands of folks and are being paid hansomly for you hard work ... you have the obligation to keep that company in business. Part of you're effort should be toward that goal. I get the feeling that too many of these captins have very short range selfish goals.
I will say that I've read all of the thoughtful comments posted to this thread and don't take serious exception to them.
Mr t__:^)
Your forgetting to subtract %20 for Capital Gains Tax. After all stock is not excahngeable for goods and services, only dollars are are, so one needs to sell the stock. REMEMBER THIS FACT THE NEXT TIME SOME GOLDEN TOUNGED REPUBLICAN IS PROMICING CAP GAINS TAX CUT. GUESS WHAT, THEY AREN'T TALKING TO YOU!!!!!! Why should Mr. Big AOL Investor be able to buy another house on Long Island when he can be forced to "donate" some of his "hard earned" income to help out the TA (among other things) improve services and to help his servants get to and from work more easily.
Yup. Class envy. An acute case, I'm afraid.
(Class Envy) I'm all in favor of taxing the rich. But we're doing it already. If we could close those loopholes back up, we'd be doing in more. Those not benefitting from loopholes are paying their share. Everyone should stop complaining.
Yes, it fine the way it is so let's not change anything. I mean that.
Not to go off on a very off-topic Republican tangent here, but the richest 1% of the population pays 30% of all taxes collected by the federal government.
I'd say that's fair.
But they have 90% of the assets Gimme an I, Gimme an R, Gimme an S What does it spell? IRS!!! Go team, GO!!!
"Why should Mr. Big AOL Investor be able to buy another house on Long Island when he can be forced to "donate" some of his "hard earned" income to help..."
Maybe because we prefer freedom to Soviet style slavery.
A transit strike will rally people around Guliani and Pataki and could benefit their future campaigns when either of them crushes the TWU and forces them back to work. Remember what Koch did in 80? Think of what Guliani will do to them.
Just got to work allready.
What? Jail us? What do you actually think Il Duce is going
to do?
If we walk for just ONE DAY, say Dec 31st, the damage is
already done. And then the Taylor law penalties will have
been well spent.
We are 33,000 members. We have families, and we vote. We
have the support of all the other municipal unions, as
their contracts all follow ours. John Sweeney of the
AFL-CIO is backing us 100%. So don't be so self assured.
We are all aware of the famous Taylor law. most of us are
prepared. And all of us know that nothing worthwhile is
ever achieved painlessly. The leadership of this local is
prepared to fight for the justice we deserve. And it is
NOT about money. It's about the treatment we reccieve by
management. Kids who work for minimum wage at McDonalds
get treated better. So while it's true we will be
subjecting the public to a terrible cost, the price we
will bear is not insignifigant. And most of us have little
sympathy for a public that holds us in as much contempt as
management does.
You know, as bad as you say it is working for the MTA, there are thousands of people who would gladly take your place. Antagonizing the riding public by going on a strike which cannot possibly achieve any of your goals is not a smart thing. What will a 1-day strike accomplish? It will cost the TWU members a whole day's pay, and in the end, it's not gonna make management cave-in.
But it will get some of those hubris laden slave drivers on the 13th floor fired. As far as most of us are concerened, with a corrupt (read: bought and paid for) union and indifferent public, this is our only chance at justice.
This is not solely my opinion. It is held by the vast majority of transit workers. In the end nothing will change. And we all know it. So when we walk, it will be for the pure satisfaction of doing so.
I don't hear to much grumbling about the bloated amount of management at Jay st/Livingston Plaza it seems the headcount downtown appears be growing in exponential numbers. You might agree that some numb skull crunching numbers and others much a inflated salary and perks but do nothing to move a train or provide customer service. RTO alone must have a high number of upper managament along with TSS's stumbling all over each other so I'm afraid to see what other departments have lurking in their closests. I guess along with hiring Conductors and promoting Train Operators and TSS' that JAY STREET/Livingston Plaza also got filled too..
(Too many Bureaucrats at Jay St).
When I was there, the TA was 80 line personnel, which is pretty damn good, though that might have changed. You want to get management back? Propose privitizing staff functions such as payroll and accounting. Lots of businesses do.
....and Chapel St. and 1250 Bway, and W53'rd etc.
When David Gunn took over there were around 300 non
represented managerial employees on staff. There are
currently well over 3000! For God's sake! There are only
around 3000 Conductors!
In RTO alone there are at least 3 superintendents for EACH
line. Each yard gets a few as well. The IRT has an ACTO,
as do the IND and BMT each, and the control center does
too. They all answer to the head idiot, the CTO, who
answers to the Chief of Service Delivery,(talk about a
meaningless job! What do we pay a VP-Subways for?) who
answers to the V.P of Subways who answers the President.
There are District General Superintedents in all the
divisions. I believe there are 9. And they all have
deputies. AND staffs. Do the math.
There are Transit Management Analysts, Associate Transit
Management Analysts, Transit Management Analyst Trainees,
Technical Support Aides, Directors, Assistant Directors,
General Superintendents, Assistant General Superintedents,
Superintendents, Deputy Superintendents, CTO, ACTO, I
could go on and on. And this is ONLY RTO! Figure in all
the other departments too!
AND NONE OF THEM MOVE A TRAIN OR FIX A TRAIN OR DISPATCH A
TRAIN! AND ALMOST NONE MAKE LESS THAN $50,000 PER
YEAR!!!!!!!!
I think I heard a pin drop. Im going to Labor Relations Monday to see if there are any BPs on the payroll as hearing officers. A far cry from 3 zone trainmasters, 1 desk superintendant,1 chief motor instructor and 1 motor instructor per line. Did I mention an RCI in command center? What year are we in now?
All these managers do not move or repair trains. But remember, back in the 1970s and early 1980s when they weren't there NO ONE bothered to move and repair trains. Lets face it, the TWU goldbricked the system to death in the 1965 to 1980 period. Without someone yelling at them, people weren't doing their job. Everyone knows it, and everyone remembers it. So beginning with Gunn, the TA hired hundreds of people to yell at people to do their job. It's a waste, but it worked. Things have changed, but the perception of TWU attitudes has not.
In the private sector, all those layers of management were stripped out, because they made the workers accountable for doing the work. That's the next frontier of productivity at the TA. If the union and its members took more responsibility for showing up when not sick and working all out, the TA could cut those layers back by attrition, and pass the savings on to the workers.
I have the preception that the TA bus & subway divisions to a pritty good job of providing service to the public. I would love to be able to say that the "privates" do it better/cheeper/more efficiently ... maybe we do in some areas, maybe they in others ... I can think of an example or two, but that's not what this thread is about.
This said, I DO feel that the MTA/TA is top heavy. Maybe they need a certain number of guys with wips on the line, but they seem to have far too many guys & gails in the back room !
Mr t__:^)
Lets put it this way, to say MTA and its subsidaries are top management heavy is a MAJOR UNDERSTATMENT. NYCTA alone has offices peppered around town chock full of people doing god knows what but not producing much to provide service. TRANSIT TRANSIT this proganda ridden hulk of crap is truly a waste of taxpayer money.
[TRANSIT TRANSIT this proganda ridden hulk of crap is truly a waste of taxpayer money.]
It WOULD be enlightening to learn just how much it cost to produce, but that said I find a number of interesting items in each 1/2 hour, e.g. November: the Croton-Harmon open house piece showed me just how much effort was spent by M-N to make it a nice event (they just didn't open the doors); shots of existing 2nd Ave Stubway pieces(I had no idea what condition they were in). Does it cost too much to get this, well when you have 30,000 employees how much is that per employee ?
Morale is very important ... the lower it is the more time & money you have to spend on wips. As I think Steve said at 207th morale is high, so management can spend more time being NICE to the staff.
Mr t__:^)
I find Transit Transit informative also but is it produced internally along with other associated costs or or outside firm. dosn't the MTA spend a fortune on PR as it stands? no less to run a half hour program.
(Doesn't the TA spend enough on PR)
Look at it this way, is there any private consumer business with the TA's revenue that spends less on advertizements? Don't you have to fight all those car commercials, which portray auto use as the symbol of financial success/sexual prowess and transit as the province of losers somehow?
Then again, TA PR is lame. As I said, it had a good plan in the last blizzard, but the Mayor didn't announce it on the radio and neither did anyone else.
DUDE! What are you talking about?
In RTO, I can't speak for other departments, you either
move the train or you don't. There's no inbetween. How do
you goldbrick that kind of job? I'll be honest, there were
alot of jobs in the past that didn't have a lot of work.
But believe me, management has squeezed all of them out.
There are no more yard jobs that do one move and you go
home. NO ONE get's an early quit anymore. The days of one
tripers are gone. No today, they have runs with built in
overtime, so that three crews now do the work of what four
used to. They call that productivity. I call it
overworking the crews. So much for serious about safety.
And because of the very nature of the job, we happen to
require more sick days and personal days than the average
worker in a factory or office.
Here's why: As a train service employee, you need to use
the bathroom, let's say you have a case of the runs. Do
you delay thousands while you stop the train, go to the
booth and ask the clerk for the lavatory key? Or should
you stay home?
In another enviornment like an office or store or garage,
etc, the restroom is just steps away and you can do your
business, and return to work. Here you can't.
Or maybe because as a construction flagger, or a vacation
relief motorman, or an extra list tower operator, you have
various days off. Do you have any idea how difficult it is
to schedule a doctors appointment, or to see your
daughters dance recital, when you don't know earlier than
Friday what your days off are for next week?
So we need those personal days and sick days, it's the
nature of doing business. If TA thinks we're robots, then
they are in for a rude awakening.
In RTO those extra layers of management have absolutely
nothing to do with supervising train crews. It's about
insulating top level management from blame and
accountability.
Yes there are more motor instructors now than before, but they don't tell you to work when you are being lazy. Once again, the nature of the job. The train either has a crew or it doesn't. There's no inbetween. This was something the Fed told them to do to make sure the crews are operating according to rules and that there are no intoxicated ones either. A legacy of Robert Ray.
The system ran fine when there was an onsite dispatcher
who made the decisions, not some micromanaging transitcrat in control two steps removed. Graffiti and car reliability are different subjects, but in operations, the mid 1980's
were probably TA's last hurrah.
(Operations better in the mid-1980s).
Give yourself some credit. I rode the trains then. Aside from the speed declines, things are better today. On the goldbricking, I agree that there is less of it, and a substantial raise is justified as a result. But the TWU hasn't taken its case to the public, and a strike will send a very different message.
You'd have been better off with the media campaign. I'll bet that if you do strike and the public gets mad (which it will), there will be a big media campaign to blame the workers. The News, the Post and the Times are not run by people who are sympathetic to people who work with their hands. You'll be blamed, not Pataki, no question, and Pataki doesn't care too much about people who ride the trains anyway.
With the focus on the upcoming Senate race, supposedly between Rudy and Hillary, look for any transit strike to become more campaign fodder for that election, including the inevitable polling to see if a hard line (the mayor, of course) or an agressively pro-union stance (Mrs. C) will help attract more voters than it loses.
The Post and Daily News have both written they will not support a strike. Media campaign or not (I voted for it) a selfish and indifferent public would never have supported us anyway.
When you say things are better, I'm sure you mean like a reduction in fires, derailments, delays due to equipment failure, etc.
That's not what I meant.
Those things have made tremendous improvements. What I meant was employee work programs, the availabiity of extra list employees to cover jobs open due to illness. Time spent in the cab and break time after a trip. A time when management was willing to discuss issues, and not bully the employees. A time when the senior leadership in RTO were Motormen and Conductors themseves at one time, as opposed to today where corporate head hunters are hired and lawyers make operational decisions.
Gunn deserves a vote of credit for bringing the system back from the brink of self destruction. But he also created the current climate where the employee is a slave to the system, and unreasonable treament is the norm.
So when I refer to the good old days when RTO had it's finest hour, I mean then.
Like I said, there are lots of TWU workers who have a screw the riders mentality. Riders, by the way, who generally earn less than they do.
And Pataki doesn't care about the riders either. The rest of the city and state hate those of us who toil to pay their bills. Pataki wants to privitize just about anything, and Giuliani wants private vans. They'll never get it without a strike.
So there will be a strike, and it will last until it begins to hurt the people who matter. In the end, the damage will be passed on to the riders in the form of service cuts and higher fares.
As for abuse of workers by managers, compare management pay with the private sector. Let's just say you're not getting the cream of the crop.
Here in Baltimore, transit cannot strike. In 1970, when the MTA was preparing to take over the Baltimore Transit Company, the Maryland General Assembly mandated Binding Arbitration in the event of a contract dispute. The BTC had suffered 3 strikes in 5 years, each lasting 6 weeks or more.
Binding Arbitration is both a savior and a curse. Baltimore has been free of transit strikes for 29 years.
However, in that 29 years the contract has gone to Binding Arbitration 5 times. In four of the 5 the arbitrator awarded a figure HIGHER than the Union had requested, and (of course) more than the Administration was prepared to pay.
The other pain in the farebox is the GA's 50% Farebox Recovery. The MTA must get at least 50% of the operating expenses through the farebox. If the system figure goes below 50, the fare go up. Our last increase was to $1.35 per ride in 1996. We suspect the fare will go to $1.50 sometime next year.
Mandated Binding Arbitration isn't a magic bullet, because it gives both parties an excuse to harden their positions instead of being forced to talk to each other. Neither wants a strike because:
- Mngt. doesn't want a strike because then all the politicians get involved in their business.
- The union doesn't want a strike because members loose too much if it goes on for more then a day or two.
=======================================
Sometimes the union wants too much, so mngt. has to call their bluff.
Sometimes the union needs to get management's attention with a strike.
If a strike seems likely both will try to get the politicans & public on THEIR side. Management has already started with their "what surplus" and "we'll need to raise the fare soon" yada yada.
Mr t__:^)
There has been a lot of talk about a strike, whether it is legal, whether it is justified, etc. How about a prediction?
Here's mine: a brief strike (no more than three days) followed by arbitration, and a fair contract that should have been agreed to in the first place.
1) Pakaki and Willie both need to look tough for their constituents: Willie for the transit workers who felt ripped off (or at least unappreciated for the sacfices they made last time); Pataki for Upstate, suburban, and business interests who resent any and all tax dollars going to the TA. Compromise WITHOUT a strike makes 'em look weak.
2) Both the union and the city can afford a short strike. The other city unions have promised to help out because a TA pact may set a pattern. It shouldn't, since other agencies have not had the achieivements of the TWU, but "me to" is the way unions think. A three day strike is no more disruptive than a blizzard or hurricane, especially if two days are on the weekend.
3) After a few days, however, the public will be enraged and looking for revenge, something neither Willie or Pataki can be sure will be steered the way they want it to. Large scale privitization, or a surge of anti-Republican sentiment are possible. Also, the lost pay will start to sting, exceeding any help other unions agree to provide. If Giuliani wants to, he can respond by locking out other city unions and refusing to pay (ME among others) since they can't show up.
So they'll agree to a court ordered arbitration.
I basically agree with your prediction, except I think the stike might be a couple of days longer, say a total of five days. A three-day strike, with two of those days on a weekend, wouldn't be sufficiently disruptive to create the essential we-mean-business atmosphere on each side - as you noted, it wouldn't be any worse than a bad snowstorm. Three working days without transit would be enough to make this a serious action and affect the public. So I'll predict a five-day strike followed by arbitration and a liveable contract.
You need to remember what happens to the best laid plans of mice & men, i.e. both groups I'm sure are brainstorming about what they want to get out of the contract and how far they're willing to go. Once the men go out things can really get out of control.
Management has to offer the union enough for Willie & company to go to the men(and women) with it.
The union may (once their out) want to hold out for much more then they would have originally setteled for, i.e. the members will know what it's costing them in their wallets and ain't going to go back for some rule changes and another day off. If the other unions realy support the strike it'll encourage them to break the bank.
The TWU/IAM/Teamsters at the airports know how to shut down an airline, i.e. no more fuel, no more groceries, picketers at the other airlines, so their works turn around and go home, etc.
If a strike happens all the politicians will be involved, each trying to make a name for him/herself. You got it, Hillery could make Rudy & George realy look bad, even if all she does is second guess them.
Mr t__:^)
So what's the prediction, Thurston?
As I said, I expect a strike, but a short one, three days tops. Just enough to look good to your hotheads, but (hopefully) not to cause the rest of us to seek revenge. Three days tops, perhaps one or two, perhaps with a weekend involved.
To predict the length of a strike I would need more information on the issues and the price tag for each. Teamster Local 732 went into the final hours with the same mind set as stated here, i.e. negotiate hard up to the end ... if you have a couple of important issues left maybe it will take a short strike to get management's attention that you realy want them ... keep in mind how much money the other side can realisticly be expected to have available ... if you end up far apart on a lot of stuff, maybe you'll have to save some of them for next time (It'll cost the membership & local too much in a long strike to get all this stuff) ... if you know management has more to give but they keep saying this is our final offer & are trying to tell you what the members want, then bring it to them so they can vote it DOWN ... look out for the politicans pulling the rug out from under you (remind them that your members vote).
You also have to look out for the "international" union telling you what's important ... to THEM. If it ends up a long strike you're going to need to borrow some cash from them, so you have to listen.
On the management side if your a proffesional vs. a policital apointee then you know all this and can use it to YOUR advantage.
At this point I think it might end up a longer strike. I see the MTA trying to pull the same game as the Nassau Republicans, i.e. "what surplus" ... we need some give backs ... you guys & gails are already very well paid & if we give you a big raise everybody else will want it, so the politicans won't give us the money. Our pockets are empty, how about a holiday or some work rule changes. The union replys NUTS, we're going to strike ! Management replies, you can't it's illegal. The union replies, just watch us !
Mr t__:^)
Hmmm. Thurston's prediction seems to be that
1) either Willie and Virgil will keep a lid on things and settle without a strike, or
2) things will blow up and it will be a disaster, with reprisals all around.
But Willie and Virgil are not their own masters. I think that politically Willie won't be able to give up anything without at least a short strike to make the members fell the pain. And Virgil won't be able to give up anything without a strike to make Pataki feel the pain. Then they'll use a court/arbitration to cover a deal. Hence, my prediction of a short strike.
A little humour here. In the Blizzard, Pataki gave refunds to commuter rail riders with monthly tickets. You don't suppose he'd do the same for TA riders with monthly passes in the event of a strike, do you? HA HA.
Another point -- about making money. The subway is now covering its operating costs, so the TA loses in a strike. The subway also has the potential to increase productivity, as Metrocard reduces the need for station staff and automatic signals reduce the need for signal operators, and perhaps conductors. Higher productivity allows higher pay per hour. Moreover, the operation of the subway system requires specialized skills. Finally, the economy relies on the subway. Hence subway workers are in a position to make demands.
The bus system loses lots of money, so a strike saves the TA money. It is a student and senior transporation system, except for a few bus to subway links, and is not critical to the economy. Since there are plenty of diesel mechanics and truck drivers out there, the bus system could easily be privatized. There is little room to increase productivity without increasing off-peak passengers, and no way to do that as long as the buses crawl through congested streets barely faster than walking.
So the bus drivers have a lot more to fear from a strike.
[Another point -- about making money. The subway is now covering its operating costs]
SERIOUSLY? I'm astounded (albeit delighted). I'm surprised this hasn't been covered in the press (OK, the NY Times) unless I missed it. Surely this is big news -- even the London Underground was, I think, only at something like 85% after massive fare increases?
But your point about privatizing the buses (student + senior transport only) is well taken. To me, one of the saddest failures of nerve by the folks who run NYC has been the complete inability to keep the roads clear in bus lanes. I've noticed a VERY definite change in taxi behavior in the last 6 months -- they now stop for lights better than other cars -- so it is possible to change driver behavior. But will we ever see a campaign against blocking bus lanes similar to the "Don't Block the Box" campaign? I'm skeptical.
[Another point -- about making money. The subway is now covering its operating costs]
SERIOUSLY? I'm astounded (albeit delighted). I'm surprised this hasn't been covered in the press (OK, the NY Times) unless I missed it. Surely this is big news -- even the London Underground was, I think, only at something like 85% after massive fare increases?
I think you're misinformed. AIUI, the London Underground is required *by law* to cover its operating AND CAPITAL costs from the farebox.
Also AIUI, it does manage to cover its operating costs from the farebox, but essentially no capital expenditures are possible, so the system is falling apart.
This information is from two friends of mine (Bronx natives, BTW) who live in London. Corrections welcome.
-- Tim
[But Willie and Virgil are not their own masters. I think that politically Willie won't be able to give up anything without at least a short strike to make the members fell the pain. And Virgil
won't be able to give up anything without a strike to make Pataki feel the pain. Then they'll use a court/arbitration to cover a deal. Hence, my prediction of a short strike.]
True, Willie for his own vs. TWU reasons may NEED a strike. And George probally has Virgil on a short leash, so it'll take a strike to convince Grorge to put a few more dollars in the pot.
[The bus system loses lots of money, so a strike saves the TA money. It is a student and senior transporation system, except for a few bus to subway links, and is not critical to the economy.]
Sometimes I don't know where you come up with your facts. At this depot we carry 100,000 a day, I would guess that not all are students or Seniors (as a matter of fact I KNOW it's a small percent !). We have a few routes that pay for themselves, however in total they don't. "Not critical to the economy" ... come on Larry. Maybe what you ment was that many duplicate rail service, but not all, AND the subways couldn't handle all those bus riders !
Mr t__:^)
It is interesting to note that with all the hoopla (at the time) surrounding the Chrystie Street Subway and the combining of the BMT and IND Routes into a single system how short a time some of them actually were in use.
Shortest of all was the NX which lasted from 11/27/67 to 4/12/68.
Next was the RJ. It ran from 11/27/67 to 6/28/68.
Then the JJ and TT by a few days more, 11/26/67 to 6/30/68.
MJ was next,11/26/67 to 10/4/69.
QJ lasted from 11/27/67 to 12/30/72.
And after that the EE from 11/27/67 to 8/27/76.
Then of course there were the two Chrystie Street Phase 3 Douplegangers, the KK and K.
The KK ran from 7/1/68 to 12/29/72.
The K ran from 1/2/73 to 8/27/76.
Compare this to the IND A and E which is still in use after 66 years.
The D and F now at 59. IRT routes 1 thru 7 all of which date from 1948. (Note I am referring only to the route designations,not the actual services themselves.)
Some of the service patterns after the connection was opened in '67 made absolutley no sense:
1. Why would people use the NX when the lack of signals on the Sea Beach express tracks limited service to such an extent that any quicker ride was negated by limited service?
2. Using the QJ as the Brighton local. The Nassau St. line forced the majority of passangers to have to transfer if they wanted to get to midtown, which was most of them. And why extend the QJ past Broad St., and not the M? The old QJ must have been one of the LONGEST runs of any route on the whole system, save for the Far Rockaway A. Thankfully the TA wised up and switched tothe M in '73
3. Why on God's earth would anyone from Jamaica use the KK via the Jamaica Ave. and Broadway els to access the Sixth Ave. line when it took nearly twice as long as the F did? Wasn't easing congestion on the F the main reason the connection at Essex St. was built in the first place?
Here's what I'd have done:
Made the QB the primary Brighton local operating during the same hours as the QJ/M.
Eliminatedd the EE and replaced it with an extension of the QB from 57th st. to Forest Hills.
Routed the M to Ditmas Ave. via the Culver shuttle, running local on 4th Ave. The cost of reinstalling the Manhattan bound track could be recouped by scuttling the now useless Essex/Bway Lafayette connection. Who knows, maybe the resumption of thru service might have justified keeping this line.
Have both B and N trains bypass Dekalb all the time.
The only problem would be that Brighton line passangers who would want to access lower Manhattan would have to transfer at Dekalb. But they do that now, so that's no big deal.
Makes more sense, right?
Great ideas. BUT, It would have made things too easy. The TA would never want to do that.
The QB would be a Express then to 57th St like the old days via Bridge
The QB would be a Express then to 57th St like the old days via the Bridge to 57th St. via Bdwy The QT would be a local via the Tunnel to Forest Hills. The D would bypass DeKalb, since there was Brighton Service stopping there. The D would run express 24/7 The Q T would run local 24/7 QB Mon Sat 5AM-10PM
The D cannot bypass DeKalb Avenue, because from the Brighton Line,
there is NO access to the DeKalb Avenue bypass tracks. Only the B
bypasses DeKalb Avenue.
James S. Li,
"The D cannot bypass DeKalb Avenue, because from the Brighton Line,
there is NO access to the DeKalb Avenue bypass tracks. Only the B
bypasses DeKalb Avenue."
Your right, I bluffed. Brighton Lines aren't connected to the express track. Therefore I proposed the N bypassing this station.
You will need a connection to the D from 4th Ave B/N/R. If both the N and B bypass DeKalb, a person will have to change twice from a inbound 4th Ave to a Southbound Brighton. So the B should bypass DeKalb
People can get a "southbound" Brighton train at Pacific St. by utilizing the free transfer to the D/Q at Atlantic.
to long of a walk
No it isn't. It's what B riders do to access the Brighton line.
Bob,
"The D would run express 24/7 The Q T would run local 24/7 QB Mon Sat 5AM-10PM"
When the Manhattan Bridge is open for the N and Q, I will like to see the D (via Brighton) return as an express and the Q as a local.
Well the QT as a local and the QB as a express
Chris R,
"Have both B and N trains bypass Dekalb all the time."
This makes very good sense when the Manhattan Bridge is open for the N and Q lines.
1) reduce congestion on the D and Q to/from Brighton Beach.
As for EE, it was combined with N and became part of the N line service. After N switched Queens terminals with R, occasionally you can see some of R trains between 71st Av and Whitehall Street during rush hours.
By the way, when C switched northern terminals with B in March 1998, C's weekend service (168 Street and WTC) were exactly the same as the defunct AA until last June.
Chaohwa
Chao,
"By the way, when C switched northern terminals with B in March 1998, C's weekend service (168 Street and WTC) were
exactly the same as the defunct AA until last June."
Why was they an AA line in the first place. Although it was one of my favorite lines. It was faster than the B/CC and even the A; D come in a far last. It was the train that bust in the station more often than any other line.
The AA was part of the original IND lineup in 1932. In those days, a single letter meant express service, while a double letter indicated local service. The AA was the 8th Ave. local off of the Washington Heights branch; the A was the express counterpart. The AA became the K in 1985 when all double letter markings were dropped, and the K marking disappeared when the C began running all day long.
Actually, the AA didn't start until the 6th Ave. line opened in 1940. Prior to that, the CC ran all day, providing local service between 145 St. and Canal St.
-- Ed Sachs
Actually, according to this website the AA ran from opening day 1932 until the Concourse line opened in 1933. The CC then ran 24/7 from 205th St until the 6th Ave. D train opened in 1940. A trains ran local north of 145th during this time.
Ed: The AA ran from Sep 10,1932 until the July 1,1933 when the C and CC began running. The AA returned on Dec 15,1940 with the openning of the 6 Avenue Subway. The AA was redesignated the K on May 6,1986 and this service lasted until Dec 10,1988.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>>>Next was the RJ. It ran from 11/27/67 to 6/28/68. <<<
The RJ continued, in spirit, as the Chambers Street Specials which ran on the 4th Ave Line in rush hours into the 1980s.
>>>Then of course there were the two Chrystie Street Phase 3 Douplegangers, the KK and K.
The KK ran from 7/1/68 to 12/29/72.
The K ran from 1/2/73 to 8/27/76. <<<
There was another K designation till 1985 or so, replaced in the main by the C after that. You can still see a K sign or two on 8th Ave & 15th Street.
And then there were the various "SS" shuttles, each with its own color. Eventually most of them were redesignated with the number or letter (e.g. 5, M) of the line that they connected with or replaced at night, and the Culver and South Ferry shuttles were dropped altogether, leaving two grey "S" shuttles, Franklin Ave. and 42nd St.
Dan: The TA certainly loved the "SS" designation since they used it on seven different routes. Beginning in November 1967 the following routes Shuttles were signed "SS".
SS Bowling Green Shuttle (Dark Blue)
SS 42 Street Shuttle (Light Blue)
SS 145 Street Shuttle (Black)
SS Dyre Avenue Shuttle (Dark Green)
SS Culver Shuttle (Orange)
SS Franklin Av Shuttle (Yellow)
With the issuance of the new map on July 1,1968 all shuttles were recolored as Dark Green and the 145 St Shuttle became the Lenox Terminal Shuttle.
With the discontinuance of the MJ in Ocotber 1969 the seventh shuttle
SS Myrtle Av Shuttle began.
With the issuance of the 1972 map the Lenox,Dyre and Myrtle Shuttles were absorbed into the 3,5 and M services respectively.
The Culver Shuttle quit in May 1975 and the Bowling Green Shuttle in February 1977.
This left only the 42 Street and Franklin Av Shuttles and with the issuance of the new map in June of 1979 they both were redesignated "S." This was several years before the elimination of double letters on the other lines.
Not to mention that when the 8-Third Ave. El used R-12's, they were signed up as "SS".
I've never seen a picture of a Third Ave. el train with an SS sign. It usually said "shuttle" only.
The IRT #8 was to be used for the Third Avenue shuttle, but the
GE R-12's used there (5753-5802) always carried "Shuttle" on
their roll signs. The #8 was originally used for the Astoria line
when the R-12/14's arrived, but was never used since the Astoria
line bacame part of the BMT Broadway subway.
REMEMBER NUMBERS WERE FIRST ON THE BMT, SO 8 ASTORIA WAS CORRECT. AT THE TIME
Yes, #8 was the Astoria marking in the BMT number code, and the IRT adopted the same marking for its Astoria route in 1948. One has to wonder why the IRT didn't follow suit on the Flushing line, which the BMT had designated as #9. Then again, the #8 and #9 markings never appeared on BMT rolling stock, as well as 6 (5th Ave.), 11 (Myrtle Ave.), and 12 (Lexington Ave.).
Yes, #8 was the Astoria marking in the BMT number code, and the IRT adopted the same marking for its Astoria route in 1948. One has to wonder why the IRT didn't follow suit on the Flushing line, which the BMT had designated as #9. Then again, the #8 and #9 markings never appeared on BMT rolling stock, as well as 6 (5th Ave.), 11 (Myrtle Ave.), and 12 (Lexington Ave.).
The reason for this was because routes 6, 8, 9, 11 and 12 used the narrower wooden El cars (BU's and Q's) which, like the Lo-V's and A/B's had no front route and destination signs.
No, the signs read "SHUTTLE" not "SS". Actually, I believe I DID once see such a train that had its front sign set to "8". The sign was set slightly below-center so as to partially obscure the word ASTORIA below the number. But this was not the way they were usually signed.
I agree with the word "SHUTTLE" being displayed on 3d Avenue trains in the Bronx, but I also think that the IRT roll sign had a #8 designation. I know there was a #9-Dyre Ave designation. When I go home this weekend, I will report back.
The R-12 most certainly did have a #8 designation for Astoria and they did run to Astoria for a short time before the two lines were split. I don't know why it was never turned up on the el.
Larry,RedbirdR33
when did the R 12 go to Astoria,?I thought the R 12s came in after the split, and Old World Fares, Qs and Low Volts made that run. Wasn t the split in 47? Is it possible the signs were put there just in case?
Also wasn t the 8 actually a BMT Number at the time
Bob: In the case of the Astoria Line both the IRT and the BMT considered it route #8. The Flushing Line was IRT #7 and BMT #9.
Larry,RedbirdR33
So at the time there were 2 no. 7s the Franklin and the Flushing Line, I always wondered what the 8 and 9 were on the BMT, I knew the 6 was the Fulton St, I thought the 8 and 9 were the Lex and Myrtle Ave Els, which left what were the 11-13 on the BMT
Bob: The BMT had a numbering system that dates back to 1925. The IRT system began in 1948 with the delivery of the R-12's.
IRT Routes
#1 Broadway-7 Av
#2 7 Avenue-Bronx
#3 7 Avenue-Lenox
#4 Lexington-Jerome
#5 Lexington-White Plains Rd
#6 Lexington-Pelham
#7 Flushing
#8 Astoria
#9 Dyre Avenue
BMT Routes
#1 Brighton
#2 Fourth Av
#3 West End
#4 Sea Beach
#5 Culver
#6 Fifth Av
#7 Franklin Av
#8 Astoria
#9 Flushing
#10 Myrtle-Chambers
#11 Myrtle Av
#12 Lexington Av
#13 Fulton St
#14 Bway-Bklyn
#15 Jamaica
#16 14 St-Canarsie.
Of course there were some changesto the IRT system. The BMT system unfortunately is only a memory. It wasn't enough for the IND to steal their lines. They absconded with the numbering system also.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Of course there were some changes to the IRT system. The BMT system unfortunately is only a memory. It wasn't enough for the IND to steal their lines. They absconded with the numbering system also.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This is true. The BMT ceased to exist when the Christie St. connection opened 32 years ago. The thefts occurred as follows:
1 -D-Brighton-1967
2 -R-4th Ave. (intact)
3 -B-West End-1967
4 -N-Sea Beach (intact)
5 -F-Culver -1954
6 -Bay Ridge -1940 (removed from existence)
7 -Franklin (intact, less Dean St.)
8 -Astoria (incorporated into the N)
9 -7-Flushing-1947 (given to IRT)
10-M-B'way/Myrtle (intact)
11-Myrtle -1969 (removed from existence)
12-Lexington -1950 (removed from existence)
13-A-Fulton St.-1940, 1956
14-B'way/B'klyn (dropped)
15-J-Jamaica (intact, although amputated)
16-L-14th St./Canarsie (intact)
The BMT is still around, but it is in fragments; not as we remember it 32 years ago.
Actually the Astoria and Flushing Lines were IRT Lines over which the BMT enjoyed trackage rights on a 50/50 basis. When the lines were originally planned both companies were using 9 foot wide cars,by the time they were completed the BMT had opted for a ten foot wide car and this led to a lengthly court battle which the IRT won, ergo the use of BU El cars on the Queens Lines.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Queston:
Could cars of BMT/IND length operate on the IRT if their width was the standard IRT 8'10" length?
On the Lines constructed under Contract III I would have to say yes, but there may be some exceptions such as the sharp turn just north of East Tremont Av and the S curve between 138 St and 149 St LL.
I do believe that the tunnel clearances where built to accomadate ten foot wide cars. Note I am not referring to Contract I or II construction.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Us old timers will still call it the BMT in the Southern Division. In fact I remember this past year the conductor announced change to the IRT and BMT
It's always that way. I still use the abbreviations. My parents don't because it's before their time.
I still refer to the N/R line in Manhattan as the BMT Broadway line, and have no reservations about using the old Southern Division titles. The whole IND division is still referred to as the 8th Ave. subway.
Funny Most people who rode the subway prior to 1967 still call the divisions IRT IND and BMT. JJust like 6th Ave. Show me a sign that says 6th Ave anywhere along the street. It Reads Ave of the Americas. But New Yorkers still call it 6th Ave, also most of the old names are still called the old names, Lenox Ave, 110th St, etc
It's not JUST people who rode the system before then. It's the rest of us (who alternate) and the occasional conductor.
As for Sixth Ave., in at least some places it's double-signed. This was done, I believe, toward the end of Koch's mayorship -- giving in to reality after 40+ years of hearing it called "Sixth Avenue."
But am I the only one who still calls them the Pan Am Building or the RCA Building? Think those are lost causes, though I betcha the Chrysler Building would always be the Chrysler Building.
End of off-topic post. No response necessary!
I think LaGuardia Changed the Name to Ave of the Americas right after WWII, and you are not off topic. Somebody may ask what train to take to the RCA/Pan Am Bldg.It would be nice if someone still knows the name, same with the Woolworth Bldg, now would you call it the FootLocker Or Champs sports Bldg(same company that used to own Woolworth)
It's still called the Woolworth Building, even though it says "Venator Group" just beside the entrance. Just like the Chrysler Building is no longer used by Chrysler.
"...same with the Woolworth Bldg, now would you call it the FootLocker Or Champs sports Bldg(same company that used to own Woolworth)"
Well, the Sears Tower here in Chicago still goes by that name, even though Sears moved its headquarters from that famous and well-located building to some bu-fu-nowhere suburb out on the Northwest Tollroad, in some "office campus" called Prairie Stone, or Prairie View, or some other God-awful faux-rural (i.e. "it's safe to come here, we're not in the city") name. Can you tell that I think this was NOT a good thing? (^:
To keep this on a transit topic, Sears is proud as punch that they have something like 35% of their workforce traveling by transit, which is admittedly REALLY high for a distant suburban location served only by bus service (nowhere within an ass' roar of a Metra station). But it's bloody low compared to the 95% or more transit usage they had when they were in the Sears Tower.
Yes but Sears is Still Sears. There is no Pan Am or Woolworth anymore
11/11/99
I never approved of the name "Avenue of the Americas". To me 6th Ave. was is 6th Ave.! The 6th Ave. "EL" and 6th IND 6th Ave. subway identify with the street above. The name "Avenue of the Americas" to me was always sappy and "United Nations" sounding. Remember the R7-9's in the late 60's that had their side destination signs upgraded for the BMT Eastern Division? How about Avenue of the Americas Local?
Bill Mangahas
I loved the destination signs on those trains, with the crank.
The RCA Building is still just that to me. I also think it's a safe bet the Empire State Building will go by that title for as long as it remains standing.
Long live the IRT, BMT, and IND as well.
Here, here, the same for the Pan Am Building, the Interboro Parkway, Rodman Street (College Point Blvd.) the Singer Bowl, the Brenden Byrne Arena and Idelwild Airport, (officially New York International Airport).
What's the Singer Bowl? and of all those things you mentioned, only the Interborough I will stick with. And the Richmond Parkway and Willowbrook Expressway.
The Singer Bowl is the original name for the Louis Armstrong Stadium in Corona Meadows Park. It was built fr the 1964-65 World's Fair.
I beieve that it has been rebuilt and enlarged for the National Tennis Association.
Larry,Redbird R33
That is correct. They enlarged it to a 20,000 seating capacity for the 1978 U.S. Open. Last year they sliced off the top layer, reducing the capacity down to 10,000, due to the Arthur Ashe Stadium. All 10,000 seats I believe were replaced.
>>>Rodman Street (College Point
Blvd.)<<<
For much of its length, College Point Blvd. was known as Lawrence St. and north of Northern Blvd, College Point Causeway.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Back in the 50s they changed Delancey St to Schiff Pkwy. That lasted about 4 years and then back to Delancey St. New Yorkers just will not change. I am suprised about all the stret name changes in Bed Sty and Harlem, Do most of the people still call the streets by its old names or the new names?
IIRC, there is still a Reid Av(Malcolm X Blvd)sign at the intersection at Halsey St in Bklyn.........
3TM
I think it says both at every intersection of Reid. Same thing with Marcus Garvey Blvd, most of the signs still say Sumner Av. On Lewis Av every sign also says Sandy Ray Blvd but nobody calls it that. Also in Bklyn:Stone Av to Mother Gaston Blvd Hopkinson Av to Boyland Av And the one most near and dear to SubTalkers:Malbone St to Empire Blvd!!!
The only place I see the Reid Av sign is at Halsey St... BTW, Hopkinson is now known as Thomas S. Boyland St.
Marcy have a different name.
Pennsylvania Av is also known as Granville Payne Av.
Schenectady Av in Crown Heights have another name as well......
Graham Av is known as the "Avenue of Puerto Rico"??????
3TM
Graham Avenue is "Avenue of Puerto Rico" in Southside and "Amerigo Vespucci Way," or something to that effect, in Northside. It's a turf thing. The next step is to rename Bedford Avenue "Rebbe Schneerson St." south of the bridge and "Young Urban Professional Thruway" north of it; then we'll have Williamsburg neatly quartered.
er.. I think you may have a bit of a problem calling _anything_ after Rebbe Shneerson in Williamsburgh - that's where the Satmar hasidim live, and they are not too fond of the Lubavitchers, viewing them as somewhat heretical.
Bedford Ave should stay Bedford Ave, it is the longest Street In Brooklyn, and too many people will be affected on any name change
I think it says both at every intersection of Reid. Same thing with Marcus Garvey Blvd, most of the signs ALSO still say Sumner Av. On Lewis Av every sign also says Sandy Ray Blvd but nobody calls it that. Also in Bklyn:Stone Av to Mother Gaston Blvd Hopkinson Av to Boyland Av And the one most near and dear to SubTalkers:Malbone St to Empire Blvd!!!
Malbone Street was changed because of the accident. Also if you want to go that far back try 1917 Wilson Ave was German Ave( it was changed in WWI) Also a number of the Streets between Ocean and Nostrand Aves had other names beside being E 22, 23,24 etc
11/13/99
"Also if you want to go that far back try 1917, Wilson Ave was German Ave.(it was changed in WW I)
Wasn't Wilson Ave, originally Hamburg Avenue ?
Bill Newkirk
In other cities, other MAIN streets had their names changed. For
example:
Chicago
Crawford Avenue-renamed Pulaski Road
21st (or 22nd) Street-renamed Cermak Road
55th Street-renamed Garfield Boulevard
South Park Avenue-renamed King Drive
Philadelphia
63rd Street, Market to Ellsworth-renamed Cobbs Creek Parkway
Filbert Street west of City Hall-renamed Pennsylvania Boulevard in
1954, then John F. Kennedy Boulevard
Columbia Avenue, 8th to 33rd Streets-renamed Cecil B. Moore Blvd.
Vintage Street-renamed Curie Avenue
N Street, Erie to Wyoming Avenues-now Castor Avenue
Union City/Hoboken area
Hudson Boulevard-renamed John F. Kennedy Boulevard
Washington, D.C.
I Street, NW-sometimes called Eye Street
Chicago also renamed one street Pope John Paul II Drive after the pope's visit in 1979. 69th St. in Marquette Park was renamed Lithuanian Plaza Court.
In downtown Baltimore, Redwood St. (one block south of Baltimore St.) was originally German St. Also, north-south streets in Highlandtown (southeast Balto.) east of Highland Avenue were originally numbered; they were later given names in alphabetical order, starting with Baylis, Conkling, Dean, Eaton etc. The scheme ends with Vail St. in an industrial area, but picks up again briefly a little to the east. The odd thing is that a few of the numbered streets remain (62 thru 68) in the area of the city-county line. The name changes were probably done to avoid confusion with the number scheme on east-west streets in north-central and northeast Baltimore (19 1/2 to 43, starting above North Avenue).
As Ed McMahon would say to Johnny Carson: "You are correct, sir!"
To Bill Newkirk. I stand corrected, I knew it was a German name, but was not sure. So I just German Ave, hopeing someone would correct me Bob
11/13/99
You're welcome Bob. Since you STAND corrected , have a seat!
Bill Newkirk
Most of the streets in Brooklyn and Queens had other names before 1910, especially in Queens when the Philadelphia nunbering system was adopted in 1915. The remenants of those old names are on the elevated lines at the stations.
For example, on the #7, 33rd Rawson St. 51st Lincoln Ave, etc.
One the A line, the Queens portion of the old Fulton St. line, 104th - Oxford Ave., etc. I am not as familiar with the original names of any of the numbered Brooklyn streets and avenues.
Unlike Queens, the Brooklyn numbering system, like Manhattan outside the Village was laid out, not applied to exisiting streets.
Find a old map of Brooklyn, you will find some of the streets in the East 20s have names below Brooklyn College. I can t get to it now, but I will be able to have a list of a few on Sunday
11/14/99
I'll do you one better , and heypaul check this out. On the corner of Ocean AVE and Glenwood Road there are square brick type columns that used to have lights years ago. This was the entrance to the Midwood Park section of stately old homes. On top facing Ocean Ave. is of course the name Ocean Ave. But face Glenwood Road and the name AVE G should be there.
Paul Matus , you used to live there. Am I correct ?
Bill Newkirk
Also in the same Midwood/Flatbush
Alsoin the Same Midwood and Flatbush Neighborhoods according to Pages 22 and 23 Hagstrom 89 East 23 was Mansfield Place E 24 Delamen Place Also E 24 by Tilden Ave is Woods Place and East 26th same place was Veronica Place, not to mention all the city streets Brooklyn, Albany, Utica, Etc. Also some of the East West Aves were changed in the 20s from Letter Street (Glenwood) Quentin etc)
I wonder what the idea behind changing Ave F to Farragut, Ave G to Glenwood and Ave Q to Quentin was.
Farragut was the great 19th Century Naval Hero, the others, probably some local political hack
Avenue G is there! I first saw it from a B49 bus, it's kind of worn so it's look sort of like AVE C.
Also, look at the streets from East 15th through Coney Island Ave. north of Ave. H - they all change from numbers to names there too - Argyle, Marlboro, etc., to name a few.
subfan
From 11 to 15th Respectively:
Stratford
Westminster
Argyle
Rugby
Marlboro
Also, 16th is called Buckingham between Church and the part where it's broken by the Brighton cut.
Kind of British Royalty, Oh those Victorian Houses too.
11/16/99
Royal Islander,
CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG. What was the following:
AVE F- Farragut Rd or Foster Ave ?
AVE D -Ditmas or Dorchester Rd?
AVE C -Cortelyou Rd ?
AVE B -Beverly(Beverley) Rd?
AVE A - ??
AVE E - ??
I posted that Ave G was Glenwood Rd. the proof is there today. Maybe the new street names used the same first letter as theold name , such as Glenwood ??
Bill Newkirk
What was Newkirk Ave??
Newkirk Avenue was always Newkirk Avenue and
Avenue E=Foster
F=Farragut, although there is an Avenue F disconnected from it
C=Probably Clarendon, but there is also an Avenue C just like Ave F above.
D=Probably Ditmas as it is continued by Avenue D at Flatbush, yet somehow reappears in place of Clarendon and D at Ralph, then D reappears at Remsen!
B=Beverly definitely, in fact, it becomes B east of Ralph
A=Albemarle, there is also an Avenue A east of Ralph, although Albemarle doesn't make it that far.
Newkirk Ave s Claim to famde that it a Express Stop on the Brighton
My father told me that it means New Church in Dutch, I always thought it was just a family name.
This is Euclid Avenue, change for the A express
The next stop on this C train will be Grant-Conduit Avenues.
It's New Church in Scottish - don't know about Dutch. Quite possibly also a family name, as you suggest.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll have to check this one out.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>Find a old map of Brooklyn, you will find some of the streets in the East 20s have names below
Brooklyn College. I can t get to it now, but I will be able to have a list of a few on Sunday <<<
I think it's Delamere, Mansfield, Kenmore and Elmont; the current Hagstrom has Delamere and Mansfield, but I think they're indulging in nostalgia.
www.forgotten-ny.com
>>>Also if you want to go that far back try 1917
Wilson Ave was German Ave( it was changed in WWI)<<<
Not true. Wilson Avenue was called Hamburg Avenue.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I was corrected the other dayy
Brian Cudahy in the Malbone St wreck book has a picture proving that there still IS a Malbone St in Brooklyn.....
Yeah it is by the 71st precinct, NY Ave and Empire Blvd........
Also in NYC- there is Fourth Avenue in Manhattan. Park Avenue South was created because the businesses did not want to be on Fourth Avenue
No, more because they would rather be on Park.
Funny Most people who rode the subway prior to 1967 still call the divisions IRT IND and BMT. JJust like 6th Ave. Show me a sign that says 6th Ave anywhere along the street. It Reads Ave of the Americas. But New Yorkers still call it 6th Ave, also most of the old names are still called the old names, Lenox Ave, 110th St, etc
Yep. Thats for sure. Old names die hard. In my post about the BMT failing to exist after Chrystie St., I make mention to the BMT as a division. I, myself still recognize the old BMT ROW's as BMT. I never in my life referred to 6th Ave. as Ave. of the Americas. As for the BMT vs. the IRT, at least the IRT is still a clearly-defined division. That is not true for the BMT. The BMT and the IND have completely merged, with the IND being the dominant of the 2. The reason why this occurred with the 3 divisions is that the IRT is the oddball, so it stands alone. The IND and BMT are compatable and can use the same rolling stock. Hence, the merger of the 2 divisions into one. Since Chrystie St., the TA has recognized only 2 divisions:
A Division (formerly IRT)
B Division (formerly BMT and IND)
Remember when subway maps separated the 3 divisions by color? The TA totally eradicated that in 1967 by color-coding each individual line (now its each trunk line). The TA has completely gotten away from a 3-division subway system.
I, myself still recognize the Culver Line as BMT, even though the IND completely took it over in 1954; and I'm not even old enough to remember the Culver Line operating as BMT, with the A/B's running on the line all the way to Stillwell. To an even larger extent was the IND takeover of Fulton St. With most of the el torn down and replaced with the IND subway, only a small 6-station portion of the BMT Fulton St. El remains as part of the IND A-Train; and even half of this was incorporated into the IND A-Train to the Rockaways.
The TA has completely gotten away from a 3-division subway system.
Would you believe that this is not entirely true?
In my Capsule History of the IND:
In the late '70s and early '80s, the New York City Transit Authority tried to delete the separate identities of each division, dropping them from maps and no longer using these terms in station announcements. While you won't find references to these divisions on maps anymore, you will still hear references to them in some station announcements as well as by conductors-- and at some stations (the "IRT" station at Cortlandt St./World Trade Center has the IRT name on entryway signs). In addition, at the front and rear of virtually every underground station in New York City, you will find a red sign identifying to emergency personnel the current location, where the next emergency exits are, and what division of the subway you're currently in.
--Mark
While you won't find references to these divisions on maps anymore, you will still hear references to them in some station announcements as well as by conductors-- and at some stations (the "IRT" station at Cortlandt St./World Trade Center has the IRT name on entryway signs).
This is true because, like I said in my post, "old names die hard". A lot of people still recognize the divisions as they knew them. There's no sense in confusing passengers. However, officially, the MTA only recognizes 2 divisions: A and B.
Show me a sign that says 6th Ave anywhere along the street.
Go to any street corner along 6th Avenue.
Just to add to Larry's post, at one time I think the concept of an articulated IRT car was being considered but was withdrawn due to the tight contact I clearances.
--Mark
Well, the Lex Ave tunnels were definitely built to BMT dimensions,as you can tell by the extra wide platforms. They were started as part of the old Triborough concept,before the Dual Contracts awarded the line to the IRT....I believe the Jerome el is also adaptable to BMT/IND dimensions, as this is always the line in the Bronx they want to attach any Second Ave line to....
Bob: The R-12's were placed in service on the Queens IRT Lines on July 13,1948. Through IRT Subway service to Astoria ended on July 25,1949. They did carry "Astoria Local" on the side route signs but in later years the "Astoria" was painted out.
Larry,RedbirdR33
THANKS FOR THE INFO LARRY ON THE ASTORIA LINE. I THOUGHT THE SPLIT CAME IN 47
I always thought they did that because it must have been very uncomfortable for Jewish people to ride on a line that's called the "SS".
I'm not sure whether our feelings were taken into account or not, but you do make a valid point - the designation "SS" does not have a positive connotation for those of my faith.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chris: I honestly don't think many made the connection between our shuttles and Schicklgruber's Schutzstaffel. But then Nazi Germany had a whole truckload of abbreviations that SA,SD and GeStaPo amonst others.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, but when you say "SS", the whole world understands it's sinister meaning. If I were Jewish, I'd be uncomfortable with it.
This is quite true but I can honestly say I never haerd anyone say that they were going to take the SS train. Most people usally referred to the shuttles by there names as oppossed to saying "get the A train. I have heard a few refer to the 42 Street Shuttle as the S train but right now we have four routes with that designation so which one are they talking about?
Larry,RedbirdR33
This is quite true but I can honestly say I never haerd anyone say that they were going to take the SS train. Most people usally referred to the shuttles by there names as oppossed to saying "get the A train. I have heard a few refer to the 42 Street Shuttle as the S train but right now we have four routes with that designation so which one are they talking about?
Larry,RedbirdR33
That is why nobody ever said they were taking the SS train. Which one? There were several. All shuttles were designated SS.
Not only Jewish(which I am) but Gypsys, Poles, Russians. close to 25 million people, 11 million in tyhe camps alone
Not to mention the millions killed (including American Soldiers) by the Nazis starting WWII itself.
Not to mention the millions killed (including American Soldiers) by the Nazis starting WWII itself.
May I ask what this has to do with shuttles in NYC?
All this over the old shuttle designation of SS!!!! Stalin killed alot of people. Lets get rid of the S designation for shuttle. Milosevic killed many also, not to mention Chairman Mao. Lets call the M-Train something else. Auschwitz brings back horrible memories. Rename the A-Train; so does Buchenwald, so get rid of the B-Train.
Do I make my point?
No you don't! None of those people or places are ever known by their initials. The SS was known exclusively by it's abbreviation.
No you don't! None of those people or places are ever known by their initials. The SS was known exclusively by it's abbreviation.
Yes, and I'm also sure that there are people walking around with the initials KGB, which doesn't make them Russian communist spies. All I'm saying is that the SS-Shuttle designation didn't ruffle any feathers while it was used during 1967-1985. Why is it ruffling feathers now? I myself happen to be Jewish. It never bothered me. My father fought in Europe during the Second World War. It never bothered him either. What bothers me is the fact that Bayer aided Mengele in his savage experiments and made the Zyklon-B gas for the death camps, Benz and Volkswagen used forced Jewish slave labor, yet Jews continue to buy and use these products. That's what I don't understand; yet everyone is making a big deal over designating shuttle lines in NYC "SS".
The SS shuttle designation was only used into the 70's. By the time the diamond jubilee map of 1979 came out, S replaced SS.
I don't care, I don't think people here do either. I believe that the concern only arose because someone mentioned the connection and asked whether this was the reason it was changed. I don't think anybody ANYWHERE ever expressed concern about the SS train in the way. The KK too.
Agreed. It may have been tough for users of the Culver Shuttle to stomach the "SS" designation (since it ran through Borough Park). When someone says "SS" I don't think of "Shuttle", the other, more sinister connotation comes to mind.
A note on the Myrtle Avenue shuttle - I saw very few trains signed up as "SS" on it - it was almost always "M". The R-7/R-9 cars always carried "M". In 1970 I saw an R42 "M" shuttle - signed up as light blue "M" at the ends, the side signs were a mix of "SS" and "M".
The end sign designation was invariably an "M".
Wayne
As far as I can remember the M was always the M, either just from Metro Ave to Broadway or all the way to Coney Island it was the M or the 10
From 1969 thru 1972 subway maps identified the Myrtle Av Shuttle as "SS." However there never was signage on the cars for this other than the generic "SS Shuttle." The stations signs at both Bway-Mytle and Metropolitan displayed both M and SS in colred discs. Wayne is right though. I think the cars themselves just displayed M signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember seeing an M/SS train of R-7/9s at Myrtle Ave. on a Saturday evening in 1969-70 which had one or more side route signs set to SS/Shuttle. This was a stiff overlay glued to the canvas. My side route roller curtain is still stiff as a board at that location due to the overlay.
On the second iteration of side signs that were put in R40-42s, the version with the colored disc at the side and then the 2 destinations stacked at the side, the only use of "SS" was for the Franklin Shuttle. The short runs on the "M" from Metropolitan to Bway-Myrtle were shown as M's.
Back in I think 1923 on tommorow's date, Philadelphia's Frankford el went into revenue service. Before then, the MFSE was just the Market Street el and subway, and the Ferry line to Delaware Avenue and I think South Street, which when out of service 10 years later. I hope to ride it after school to celebrate its birthday.
Issac: Your right, its November 5,1922 from Front and Arch Sts to a then temporary terminal at Frankford Av and Bridge St. Hope you have a good time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Too bad my beloved Almond Joys won't be there for it.
No, it's the 77th. The Frankford El actually opened on November 4,
1922.
You are right, it is the 77th anniversary. But I read it was November 5, not November 4.
11/05/99
Ok , now for the other side of the coin.
I think the R-11 , since it was so oddball and was mothballed at times.
OR was it the BMT Green Hornet ?? Your input is welcome.
Bill Newkirk
Bill: The shortest run would have to be the Green Hornet. It arrived in 1934 and was sidelined in 1941. It left the property in 1942.
The R-11's lasted from 1949 until about the mid-seventies,even though they did take a ten year sabbatical from 1955 to 1965.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The R-11's were out of service for 8 years, not 10, from 1957 to
1965. Also, the original Bluebird ran from 1939 to 1942, the 5
newer Bluebirds ran for 15 years, from 1940 to 1955. And the 25
Multi-Section cars ran for 25 years, from 1936 to 1961.
In my day it was the R-11/34 cars, but then again, the Franklin Shuttle had them almost exclusively for a long stretch in the 1970s.
SudDude
If my predictions are correct, the new cars on order for both the IRT and BMT-IND will be the cars with the shortest life as they will be given a photo opportunity inaugaural run from 36th Street Yards to the Coney Island Yards where they will be parked on the scrapping tracks. If any of them break down on that route, the remaining cars will go from 36th Street over to the Bus Storage Yards right near 36th Street via the streets.
I don't think it's fair to count prototype/experimental cars such as the Green Hornet or R11s. Of production models, my guess for the shortest active lifespan is the BMT Multi-Section cars.
-- Ed Sachs
The shortest lifespan of an R-type was probably the R16, which miraculously lasted 32 years (55-87). However, many of them were retired even before that date.
Upon further examination, the R-22 only last 29 years (58 to 87).
That makes it a candidate for shortest service by an R series. Most likely, the last R-22s were delivered by 1958; possibly at the same time the first R-26s began showing up.
The IRT Worlds Fair cars of 1938 also lasted about 32 years, 1938 to 1970 (or was it 1969?). Can anybody confirm how many of that class made it to Third Ave. el service?
Although it wasn't our's, look how short-lived the SOAC was.
The SOAC cars ran on the A, D, E, and N lines from May to July,
1974, before they moved to Boston, Cleveland, Chicago, and
Philadelphia by the spring of 1975.
All 50 of the World's Fair-Steinway Motors saw service on the 3 Avenue El,together with about 12 or so Lo-V Trailers and several regular Steinway Motors. During the last year of service for the old cars even the five museum Lo-V Motors were pressed into service. The last train of old cars ran during the am rush of November 3,1969.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It should be noted that in 1964 two of the WF Cars broke from the ranks to become motors for the vacuum cleaner train. 5660 became 20501 and 5689 became 20502.
A whole bunch of the Steinway WF cars were spotted as work motors in the summer of 1970 at 207th Street yard by yours truly. Some regular Lo-V's were also seen as well in work service.
Wayne
A whole bunch of the Steinway WF cars were spotted as work motors in the summer of 1970 at 207th Street yard by yours truly. Some regular Lo-V's were also seen as well in work service.
That's what became of a lot of them once they were removed from 3rd Ave. service.
If I remember my history correct, the Green Hornet was scrapped during World War II scrap metal drive.
[Ok , now for the other side of the coin.
I think the R-11 , since it was so oddball and was mothballed at times.
OR was it the BMT Green Hornet ??]
Among major car types, the R27/30's died a young death.
Actually, the R2730 didnt die, it was killed because it didn't have A/C. If it did, I think they'd still be in service, as some of it's IRT brother redbirds are still going strong.
The R16 died young (32). And I mean died.
They were KILLED! The only reason the R27/30 died was because they were never given A/C. They could have been.
I think that there was no AC because this would make the cars heavier.......
3TM
9St. Transfer to the M8. The next stop will be Houston St. Transfer to the F,H,J,K,Z lines. The M21 on the upper level. Stand Clear.............
I think the reason was that they couldn't fit the AC units in the cars the way they were built.
I think the reason was that they couldn't fit the AC units in the cars the way they were built.
Body wise, the R-27/30 was identical to the R-32. The only real difference was one had a stainless steel exterior, one did not; and one had standard windows while the other had picture windows. If you can air condition an R-32, why can't you air condition an R-27/30?
I don't remember what the deal was with AC on the R30, but someone mentioned that they couldn't be retro-fitted with AC. I'm sure if they could have they'd still be around.
I think the TA just didn't care. Also, the R-32 has a stainless frame.
I don't remember what the deal was with AC on the R30, but someone mentioned that they couldn't be retro-fitted with AC. I'm sure if they could have they'd still be around.
The 27/30's were scrapped because they reached the magic number of 35 years. I don't think they had as much spunk as the 32's either, to warrant an overhauling. Its a shame, because the 27's are the first cars that I remember being put into service brand new.
If that's true, then they would have lasted until 1996, since they mostly came into service in 61. As for spunk, those babies moved through the Montague St. tunnel and the Canarsie line when I rode them.
The R-27/30s had carbon steel bodies as do the Redbirds. The R-32s have stainless steel bodies and frames and as delivered were lighter than their carbon steel brethren. Adding AC increased their weight to about what the R-27/30s weighed when new. Had the R-27/30s been retrofitted with A/C, their weight would have risen to BMT standard proportions. The only advantage would have been a better chance at a fair fight with one of those BMT Bullies.
Croaked would be more like it.
An odd question,perhaps, from a non-mechanical type: How is it that a car that basically had the same equipment,design(except for length and width)etc, etc as other cars bought for the IRT at the same time be such turkeys?? Or maybe all the stuff they say about machines having souls is true..hmmmmmm...
Did you hear about a possible increase in $1.50 fare? And I guess the Fun pass will cost more along with the weekly and monthly unlimiteds. Service keeps getting worse, it seems I have to wait longer for a city bus than a year ago. It seems there's a problem with the subway everyday. The trains crawl, often one can run faster. The delays and problems with LI Bus, not to mention poor service. No way I'm paying an extra 30 cents, I'd rather put it towards getting my own car and not dealing with the ripoff the MTA is.
You go to other countries, and cities like Hong Kong, Taiwan, Singapore, San Francisco and their service is cheap, reliable, and clean. NYC on the other hand is dirty, slow, and getting more expensive.
The result is even more cars on the streets of NYC and here in Nassau county, not to mention the higher cost of commuting. It might make some people and companies think of working elsewhere besides NYC.
$1.50 a ride is expensive enough. Not to mention crappy LIRR service that costs even more. We lack a real mass transit concsious like other countries have because not enough is done to make it appealing to car drivers. Several people I've spoken to are now closer to using their car more if the fare goes up, especially in Queens.
A fare increase will be a major setback to the subway and bus system, and should NOT be instituted. The money should come from the pockets of those who have, not the commuters who have not.
With today's thinking, it's amazing we even have a subway and bus system in NYC. In 20 years Shanghai, China will have a better transit system than NYC does, if we don't act soon.
But then again, mass transit in the USA is standing still compared to what countries like China are doing. Just build the 2nd ave subway, build whatever the city needs to move people around efficiently.
There is enough money in this city, in this state, and the country to have a much better transit system, not to mention feed and house everybody. Only problem is alot of it is in the hands of too few people, instead of the $$ being spread out more evenly among everybody.
It's a trial balloon by George Pataki's friend Virgial Conway. George wants to be George Bush's VP, so doesn't want to rock the boat in NYS on anything. The money is needed for Capital Improvements, which historically doesn't come out of the farebox. I suspect that Rudy Giuliani doesn't want to confront him on this right now because of his senate race, result WE LOOSE !
Problem: If NYS/NYC doesn't come up with it's share of the money, the Fed. with stop payment on that B-I-G check that Virgial recently held up for all the cameras.
Mr t__:^)
The proposal was for an increase in 2004, five years away. By that time the $1.50 fare will have been in effect for 9 years, which will be the longest period without a fare increase since the 15-cent fare lasted from 1953 to 1966 (13 years). No one likes to pay more, but price hikes for just about everything are a fact of life. A 20% increase after 9 years corresponds to an annual inflation rate of just over 2% (2.046%, compounded annually). That will likely be comparable to the overall rate of inflation over the same period.
As for the perceived lousy service, it is all relative. Read the article from Sweden recently posted here praising the service on the NYC subways, compared to that in Stockholm.
It's also my understanding that San Franciscans are extremely fed up with MUNI. A lot of tourists seem to be impressed with the service there, but the people who use it daily definitely aren't.
-- Tim
Let's not start the "save the fare, stop buying spare parts" nonsense again. Keeping the fare static for years, then pushing through a massive increase, makes no sense. Maybe its what you had to do when you relied on nickels, dimes, and quarters, but not now. Better to increase the fare by a few cents each year.
As for a strike, I believe there will be one, but it won't last long. George Pataki doesn't care about transit riders, and sticking it to us lowlife city residents just helps him in the rest of the state and country. Willie James does seem to care about city residents, but lots of dissedents in the union do not, so he will have to act tough. A confrontation will give them cover for the deal they have to cut.
My scenario is that negotiations go on until Thursday the 17th, and the union goes out Friday morning. Three day weekend. Other unions have promised to pay the cost of the strike. People hurt, but not that bad, and George and Willie get credit for being willing to fight to the last transit rider. A court finds the union in contempt. Does every transit worker get fined, or just those scheduled to work?
By Monday, the business community has its pound of flesh, and figures the costs are beginning to outweight the benefits. The fines are beginning to hurt the workers. Everyone goes back for the Monday morning rush.
One positive: Giuliani could use the strike as a pretext to issue lots of licenses to commuter vans. The City Council will never agree to allow anyone to open a business of any type, but neither will they ever try to close one.
Yes, and historically Muni has been horrendously dangerous to pedestrians. Don't recall the figures (any SF SubTalkers?) but I think they mow down dozens of people a month, of whom a number die. There have been horror stories of Muni drivers with dozens of infractions -- similar to the spate of stories about NYC cab drivers, except these guys (and women) are driving bigger, heavier buses, trolleys and streetcars.
Don't you think that's a bit overexaggeration -- "They down dozens of people a month, of whom a number die" ???
Funny, I am out here in California, and I haven't heard of a fatality at San Francisco Muni in quite some time. I hear of more people dying under the wheels of NYCTA subway trains than I do under any of Muni vehicles.
There WAS a suicide in front of a BART train last week. That was NOT SF Muni, and a suicide,last time anyone checked, wasn't the fault of the agency whose vehicle the suicidee (or is it -- suicidor?) jumps in front of/under.
OK, so maybe I was exaggerating a little. BUT ... when I lived in SF (10 years ago), there was a general acceptance that Muni drivers were dangerous, indifferent to pedestrian & auto safety, and to be watched carefully. And my friends in SF tell me nothing's changed.
Dunno about the suicides. I'm talking about pedestrians being grazed, hit, or outright run over.
I was in SF last month, the pedestrians there are WORSE then in New York, the run out from between parked cars without looking, run between busses. From then Trolley Stops on Market Street, they just, run off, without looking to catch the trolley or get off
For one thing, pedestrians in San Francisco seem to be a lot dumber than in any other city I have ever visited. They don't ever seem to wait for anything, it's like they DARE a motorist to run into them. I find San Francisco one of the most dangerous cities to drive a vehicle in, whether it be a car, bus, or whatever, due to the moronic actions of the pedestrians.
It's not just the Muni drivers that are the problem.....
Actually SF MUNI did have a dfatality last week--a station cleaner hit by an LRV at a surface station.
I got a lot worse in DC. Some people pay 6.50 to get to and from work here (I never have, luckily). That is 5 rides in NYC. The buses have always been slow and infrequent, and the subways are bad too. Who ever heard of waiting 5 minutes during rush hour for a packed train on the 6? The MTA is about to put the articulated buses on routes that DO NOT EVEN NEED THEM!!! The M79 and M86 can handle their load perfectly well 24 hours a day. The M15, M1-4, and M101-3 could use the 50% more space on the bus, and lure people away from the Lex (especially on the M15). 1.50 is NOT the service we are paying for. There will be more cars unless the services are more frequent, cleaner, comfortable, and if the trains and buses can't have those 3, at least put the buses with the largest capacitites where they are needed, on the M15. The M79 and 86 are fine. I am not paying a dollar 80 for a subway ride (although it is better than a cab).
the m15 was supposed to get the articulated buses, but they are unable to make the turn from 126th street from 1st avenue. the buses were moved. I can see them going to the M103 eventually or the M102 cause Westside depot houses the M102
Articulated busses DO NOT HAVE WIDER TURNING RADII!!! The crosstown routes were probably chosen because of the lack of a subway alternative.
why wouldn't you pay $1.80 for a subway ride but pay it for a bus ride?
I think it makes more sense to have people who use the subway pay for it. Rather than taxing people who might never even set foot inside. And BTW, I don't think the wealth should be "redistributed," if you don't make any money, that's not my fault. Why don't you move to a nice Soviet farm?
Enjoy paying a $5 fare, then. I'll pay my subsidies, thank you. (since I already do on all my utility bills, and a portion of the sales tax)
-Hank
So, what difference does it make paying them through taxes as opposed to outright? At least outright it goes where you want it. The only reason subsidies exist is to keep transit competitive with the car, using highly subsidized roads.
I think you answered your own question.
-Hank
And there you go. If the roads are subsidizedby my tax money why should't mass transit be subsidized by people who don't use it.
EVERYBODY uses the roads. You walk on them, the busses run on them. Your stores get delivery, THE TRAINS get delivery on them, you get emergency services through the roads. Yet you can live your whole life without ever using the subway.
good luck bud you and say 300,000 - 500,000 other folks turn to driving to work in New York City, hmm whats the traffic been like on say Queens Midtown tunnel 45-60 minutes wait at the tolls. The TRIBORO bridge collapses from the weight of the cars on the span..
The FDR falls into the East River cause its in such terrific shape
Gasoline prices rise to 2.40 pr gallon and parkin in the CITY????
remember not to block the box or Rudy will ticket your car and your insurance goes further into the stratusphere.
also remember to wear your gas masks since the atmosphere will literally be equal to inhaling ammonia...
This morning's (Friday 5 November 1999) issue of Dagens Nyheter, Sweden's largest morning newspaper, had a couple of articles praising the New York subway and comparing it to the Stockholm subway (which comes out looking really lousy). Here are the two main articles and some side material, translated by me, and followed by a couple of comments.
-------------
Main article:
"In New York, the trains run on time"
Welcome to the New York subway, one of the world's first and largest subway systems. The subway is the best proof that New York is the city that never sleeps.
In New York, the subway runs all the time, 24 hours a day, every day, year-round, in Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn and the Bronx. On a normal weekday, four million passengers use the subway. Every year, it transports 1.2 billion New Yorkers and others.
The New York subway, with its 26 lines, is a living miracle. And Stockholm can learn a lot from it -- in spite of, or perhaps because of, the fact that it, together with the bus system, is one of the world's most extensive and complicated public transport systems.
Here in New York, the subway trains still run as they should, after 95 years. On time. They depart on time and arrive on time. It's enough to bring tears to the eyes of a Stockholmer who remembers when the Stockholm subway ran like clockwork.
There are minor delays from time to time, but they are rare. And of course repair and maintenance work is done, but mostly on weekends, when fewer people are affected. The series of delays, breakdowns and cancelled runs that have been hitting Stockholm for several years now doesn't happen here.
New Yorkers are incredibly impatient. Delays are very rare, and when they happen, people become very upset and angry. Four million people ride the subway every day, usually without incident.
"But when there are problems, we definitely find out what people think of them," says Albert W. O'Leary, head of press relations at MTA New York City Transit, the New York counterpart of SL in Stockholm.
The subway's signaling system, which is the be-all and end-all of a well-functioning subway system, works well even though it is the same system that's been in operation since the subway opened 95 years ago.
The Stockholm subway used the same system when it opened for service in Stockholm in 1950. And it worked extremely well, before SL began installing the new signaling system that has caused so much chaos on the green line.
But the smooth functioning of the New York subway system didn't come about on its own. Through the early 1980s, the subways and buses were in a state of deferred maintenance, as MTA itself calls it, because of budget constraints. There was simply no money available.
Buses and trains broke down regularly, miles of subway track were in very bad condition, and the entire infrastructure, the basis of the whole transport system, was falling apart.
MTA worked to get federal approval for a massive, multi-year capital program. In 1982 its efforts were rewarded: New York City Transit started one of the largest projects in US history.
Since then New York City Transit, through the MTA, has invested an incredible SEK 182 billion (about $21.8 billion) in public transport. The money has come from city, state and federal capital funds.
As a result, all subway cars, buses and tracks, and more than 60% of the subway stations, bus garages, trackbeds, the signaling system, switches, tunnel lighting and the rest of the infrastructure has been restored to a state of good repair.
---------------
Second article:
"Nobody is afraid of the night here"
The fear is gone. Most of it, anyway. Through the beginning of the 1990s, there were few who dared ride the subway outside the morning and afternoon rush hours. It was considered particularly dangerous to ride evenings, nights and early mornings, when the risk of being attacked, or being the victim of other crimes, was considerable.
Today, the difference is striking. The system is much safer than it was in 1990, when it was at its worst. This is connected to the general improvement of the situation in New York, and not least with the zero-tolerance efforts initiated by Chief of Police Bill Bratton in the mid-1990s.
The idea was, and is, that the police always immediately intervene in even minor crimes and offenses. Anyone who jumps the turnstiles is seized, handcuffed and taken down to the station, as are those who drink beer in public areas. The police intervene as quickly to stop those who urinate on the street or in the subway as they do to stop those who park illegally.
And surveillance of the subway is part of this new police methodology. As a result, the number of passengers has increased markedly -- evenings and nights as well.
"The more people you have using the subway, the safer it will be for everyone." Bill Bratton believed that it was important to stop people jumping the turnstiles because it was often these same people who robbed and attacked other passengers. "If you're carrying a pistol or a knife, you're not putting a token in the turnstile," says Albert O'Leary, the MTA's head of press relations, who was previously head of press relations for the New York police.
"In 1990, we had 18,000 crimes and major offenses in the subway. That number is now down to 4,000 per year, on a subway system that carries 1.2 billion passengers per year -- an incredible change," he says.
When DN's correspondents ride the subway today through various parts of New York, we are struck by how much cleaner and better-looking it has become. And the graffiti that used to cover the subway cars and much of the stations is gone.
People also ride much more today because MTA has introduced the Metrocard, which is similar to the monthly and season cards in Stockholm. This makes it easier for passengers, since they no longer have to stand in line to buy tokens in the morning.
And of course, the subway is an easy way to get around New York, with its heavy traffic. If you use the bus or drive a car, you can easily get stuck in a traffic jam.
And on most lines, you can choose between local trains, which stop at all stations, and express trains, which only stop at certain stations and which carry you long distances much faster.
--------------
Sidebars:
"Facts about the New York subway"
Unlike Stockholm, where the subway for the first time is being operated entirely by a private company, the New York subway is currently owned and operated entirely by the City of New York. The New York equivalent of SL in Stockholm, MTA New York City Transit, operates all of the subway and most of the bus service.
"The New York subway"
Service began -- 1904
Passengers per weekday -- 4 million
Passengers per year -- 1.2 billion
Number of cars -- 5,803
Stations -- 468
Kilometers of track -- 1,340
Signals -- 11,300
Switches -- 2,637
Bridges -- 68
Underwater tunnels -- 14
Stations with ventilation -- 199
Most heavily used station -- Times Square (38.4 million passengers per year)
"The Stockholm subway"
Service began -- 1950
Passengers per weekday -- 1 million
Passengers per year -- 276 million
Number of cars -- 900
Stations -- 100
---------------
A couple of comments from me.
It's incorrect to say that the Stockholm subway used the same signalling system as the New York subway. A book I have at home, "World Metro Systems," says that the Stockholm subway "pioneered cab signalling." The Stockholm system uses wayside color-light signals only at switches and interlockings. Aspects of the Stockholm subway as it was initially designed that were taken from the New York subway include the cars and the power distribution system.
Please be aware that the quotes from O'Leary and Bratton are translated from Swedish, and probably do not correspond exactly to what they actually said in English.
Regards,
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
Tim, Tos-sa-micka (Swedish for thank you ?). My Grandparrents were from your neck of the woods but wouldn't teach their childern the language (didn't want them discriminated against).
What a great site this is to have subway buffs from around the world talking with us !
Mr t__:^)
Tim, Tos-sa-micka (Swedish for thank you ?).
Yep, spelled "tack så mycket".
My Grandparrents were from your neck of the woods but wouldn't teach their childern the language (didn't want them discriminated against).
It's hard to blame them, but isn't it a shame they felt they had to do this! Certainly I think people should learn the language of the country they emigrate to, but that doesn't have to mean abandoning their native languages.
What a great site this is to have subway buffs from around the world talking with us !
Agreed!
Med vänlig hälsning
Tim Kynerd
PS FYI, I'm an American (originally from Mississippi). Didn't want anybody getting the wrong idea....
[My Grandparrents were from your neck of the woods but wouldn't teach their childern the language (didn't want them discriminated against).]
[It's hard to blame them, but isn't it a shame they felt they had to do this! Certainly I think people should learn the language of the country they emigrate to, but that doesn't have to mean abandoning their native languages.]
I agree with this. Some folks OVER HERE think it's new problem or an anti-black thing, but my generation, my kids & grandkids have no idea what it is to be Swedish, nor do they any interest in going their. I'm a genealogist and have traced my father's side to the 1630s, but can only get my mother's side back to Ellis Island (my great grandfather). My wife doesn't understand why I care about all those dead people. She also doesn't care about roots except she's proud to be mostly Irish. To me roots are an anchor that you need in life, just like a belief in God.
Tim, it sounds like you have a interesting family background !
To the rest of you folks, please pardon this non-topic rambling.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the long and interesting piece, Tim, and for taking the trouble to translate it.
A question: Sweden has a rep in the U.S. as being an ultra-liberal country--is this deserved? I ask because I note the paragraph:
The idea was, and is, that the police always immediately intervene in even minor crimes and offenses. Anyone who jumps the turnstiles is seized, handcuffed and taken down to the station, as are those who drink beer in public areas. The police intervene as quickly to stop those who urinate on the street or in the subway as they do to stop those who park illegally.
Many in New York think that is oppressive, even though it's one of the reasons the murder rate is down from about 2200 in 1990 to about 700 today.
How would you say that plays with the Swedish "person-in-the-street"? How does Stockholm deal with petty crime?
Thanks for the long and interesting piece, Tim, and for taking the trouble to translate it.
No problem. When I saw it on the front page of my newspaper this morning, I immediately thought, "I need to translate this and post it to SubTalk."
A question: Sweden has a rep in the U.S. as being an ultra-liberal country--is this deserved? I ask because I note the paragraph:
"The idea was, and is, that the police always immediately intervene in even minor crimes and offenses. Anyone who jumps the turnstiles is seized, handcuffed and taken down to the station, as are those who drink beer in public areas. The police intervene as quickly to stop those who urinate on the street or in the subway as they do to stop those who park illegally."
Many in New York think that is oppressive, even though it's one of the reasons the murder rate is down from about 2200 in 1990 to about 700 today.
How would you say that plays with the Swedish "person-in-the-street"? How does Stockholm deal with petty crime?
Complex question. I'll try to do it justice.
First of all, I have to point out that by any American standards, Stockholm is a very safe city.
But crime is on the increase in Stockholm. One article in this morning's Metro (a free newspaper distributed on the public transport system; coming to Philadelphia soon, AIUI) said that the police are not making much use of their new ability to issue fines on the spot for certain offenses, ranging from public urination to being on the tracks of the subway. Another said that a blind man was hospitalized yesterday after being stabbed by one or more robbers at the central railway station. (I use this latter example not because I expect it to shock a bunch of jaded New Yorkers ;-), but because it's certainly not typical of what you expect to hear about happening in Sweden.)
Because of this, my impression is that the "Swede in the street" wants all kinds of offenses to be dealt with somewhat more decisively. Zero tolerance has been talked about here, and supposedly even put into practice for short periods once or twice. The underlying problem is that the police force is underfunded and can't even keep up with serious crimes; there is said to be a significant backlog of murder cases that the police don't even have time to *investigate*, much less solve.
And to get back to the subject of the article -- which was, if obliquely, the problems in Stockholm's public transit system: Someone pointed out recently, on a Swedish bulletin board that I read, that the fundamental problem is not with the network itself and how it's laid out. It's the fact that nobody is taking overall responsibility for seeing that (1) every part of the system works the way it's supposed to, and (2) the parts of the system fit together in such a way as to make a smooth, coordinated journey possible. I agree with this assessment, and with the writer's explanation for it: the privatization of Stockholm's public transport since 1993 has led to underfunding (low bidder gets the contract), resulting in staff shortages (which are, unbeknownst to the public, a MAJOR source of disruptions in service on the subway), and increased mechanical problems (another source of service disruptions in all modes).
The police are essentially suffering from similar problems, which in their case have rather different symptoms, but the overall effect is similar -- what needs to get done isn't getting done because of underfunding.
Yet Sweden has the world's highest tax burden as a percentage of GNP. Go figure.
So I'm not all that optimistic. We'll see what happens.
Best regards,
Tim Kynerd
I forgot to mention that accompanying these two articles were three illustrations:
-- A schematic diagram of the New York subway, with only certain stations marked (and some names wrong; I'm not aware of a station called "Colombia University," exactly, and certainly not of one called "Port Authority Bus Terminal" ;-) or of one called "Qeensboro Plaza"). This has an inset showing the Stockholm subway for comparison.
-- A nice color picture showing one wall of the remodeled Franklin Avenue station with the stained glass.
-- A good B/W shot of the Manhattan skyline from Smith/9th.
Tim
[A schematic diagram of the New York subway, with only certain stations marked (and some names wrong; I'm not aware of a station called "Colombia University]
It's on the Bogota Metro.
Seriously though, thanks for posting such an interesting article.
Add my thanks too, not only for posting -- but for translating as well!
To all of you who thanked me for posting the article: You're very welcome.
As for the translation, I really like to translate, so I just decided to do this during my lunch hour yesterday. I got my lunch and sat at my desk, translating while I ate, and then posted the article to SubTalk.
Glad you all enjoyed it.
Regards,
Tim
-- A schematic diagram of the New York subway, with only certain stations marked (and some names wrong; I'm not aware of a station called "Colombia University," exactly, and certainly not of one called "Port Authority Bus Terminal" ;-) or of one called "Qeensboro Plaza"). This has an inset showing the Stockholm subway for comparison.
The 116 St/Columbia University stop is on the Upper West Side of Manhattan on the Broadway IRT (1/9) line.
The 42 St/Port Authority Bus Terminal stop is on the west side of Midtown Manhattan on the 8th Avenue IND (A/C/E) line.
The Queensboro Plaza stop is just across the river in Queens on the Corona / Flushing IRT (7) and the Astoria BMT (N) lines. As mentioned elsewhere on this site, this station is unique in that it is the only station in the system with a cross-platform trasfer between an IRT Division and an IND/BMT Division line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Um, you missed a couple of things.
That's Columbia University, not Col*o*mbia University. The latter is what the map in the newspaper showed.
And AFAIK it's Queensboro Plaza, not Qeensboro Plaza. Same problem there.
I don't recall "Port Authority Bus Terminal" being part of the official name of any subway station. If it is, then I stand corrected.
Regards,
Tim
You are correct; it isn't!
The IND 8th ave. line, **42d St.** Station (A,C,E) is the stop which has a lower level entrance to the PABT, outside the fare zone.
There also is a walkway, within the fare zone, from this station to the **Times Square - 42d St** Stations for the IRT and BMT (1,2,3,9,N,R,S) at 7th Ave & Broadway.
Tim .. great post! Thank you for translating the articles for us.
What is the general impression of people regarding the public-vs-privately owned issue? As you probably already know, New York City pccasionally raises trial balloons of privatizing some city agencies. It doesn't sound like it's too successful as it relates to the Stockholm subway.
Also, how big is the Stockholm subway system? (track or route miles, stations, rolling stock)
--Mark
It's hard for me to give the general impression of privatization here in Stockholm. My own impression is that it has had a strong negative effect on the quality of service, but I would not be willing to ascribe that opinion to other people.
The subway in Stockholm is 110 km (66 miles) in route length, has 100 stations and about 900 cars. There are seven lines that run all the time, as well as a number (about five) extra lines that only run at certain times, mostly in the peak hours. On a normal weekday, it carries about a million people -- more than any US heavy-rail system except New York's. (For comparison, greater Stockholm is about the size of the Kansas City or Milwaukee metro area.)
The newspaper article's reference to the subway being run by a private agency refers to the acquisition, by a subsidiary of the French company CGEA Transport, of SL Tunnelbanan AB. ("AB" means "share company," i.e. corporation.) However, while this acquisition is recent, having been completed on 30 June of this year, the subway system has been regularly tendered (contracted out) since, I believe, 1994. SL Tunnelbanan, a subsidiary of the transit agency (AB Storstockholms Lokaltrafik, which as the name indicates is organized as a corporation), has won all the tenders.
In my view, the years of competitive contracting in public transport here have resulted in an underfunded and undermaintained system, because the mistake has been made of not having sufficient guarantees of quality in the contracts. Another problem is that the parceling out of various parts of the system for tender has meant that cooperation and communication between, for instance, the bus system and the commuter trains have suffered. On the whole, the quality of the system has declined somewhat -- not more than that -- but the ability of the system to meet challenges, like those posed by a serious service disruption, has been greatly impaired, which in itself is a reduction in quality and which has negatively affected public perceptions of the system as a whole.
Regards,
Tim
Forgot to give my comment about privatization in New York: Fight it tooth and nail, but if you can't stop it, at least work to make sure that (1) the funding is entirely adequate, and (2) good measures and guarantees of quality are built into the tenders.
Regards,
Tim
I would point out that "privatization" seems to be causing problems in the UK, but US freight railroads have always been private and now they're doing better, I would argue, than if the government ran them, despite thefact that they have to compete with publicly subsidized modes.
I think the issue in US cities would not be private/public per se as political conditions have changed so much since the days that private ownership of public transit was common.
In NYC the issue is competition, or the lack of it. The TA was directed to privatize its bus system, and never did. As an experiment, I would like to see the City competitively hiring separate management teams to operate the two subway divisions, as well as the bus lines, with a different organization (on the buses) at least down to the borough level.
The problem with privitizing a capital asset is that if the fare is fixed by regulation the operator has an incentive to cash cow the asset and then walk away. That's what the private operators did with the subways. That's what the Jamaica Water Company did with the infrastructure of that part of Queens. And that's what landlords do with NYC's rent regulated housing stock.
On the other hand, if you allow them to charge as much as they want, you are left with an unregulated monopoly that can gouge like crazy.
So you can't "privatize" the subways, but you could allow private operators to provide local bus service.
The problem with privitizing a capital asset is that if the fare is fixed by regulation the operator has an incentive to cash cow the asset and then walk away. That's what the private operators did with the subways.
Neither your characterization of the nature of private operation of the IRT and BMT nor the impetus for the takeover by the City describe the historical reality.
This is not to say that the IRT did not, in its early days, attempt to use city-built infrastructure as a "cash cow," as you have it, but this reality turned over first, by thesigning of the Dual Contracts, and second, by the wartime inflation of the 'teens.
Subsidized competition destroyed privately owned transportation infrastructure in the U.S., Automobile,Trucking and Construction intrests CONvinced the military and political leadership to throw terabucks at the highway system with disastrous results. This CORRUPTION is why America will ALWAYS have a second rate transportation system, forever dependent on government handouts.
As far as the freight roads go, the government did run the Northeast out of the hole with Conrail (RIP), and I think that it was 1984 (much earlier than anyone ever expected) that the system went back into public hands.
At the same time that the government "subsidized" air and highway traffic, they de-regulated the rail industry, and left the highway users saddled with a grossly inefficient long-distance system. Anyone who thinks that the highway is better for long distance freight should talk to a logistics expert for J.B.Hunt, Schnieder National, or UPS, all of whom use rail service extensively, because it's simply too inefficient to truck large quantities of materials across the country.
The other government-owned rail system, Amtrak, faces mandates to become self-sufficent (I'm not sure if this is a route to privatization, or just to be free of tax dollars, like the USPS). Amtrak is pretty close, and I think that revenue is about 90%(or more) of costs right now. The subway, or any of the regional mass-transit systems face a much larger economic hurdle. Actually, the only division of the MTA that could stand alone is Bridges&Tunnels, and privatized construction of toll-facilities has proven to be very feasible and profitable, meaning less [subsidy]tax dollars in the pot and more [user] tolls to pay.
As far as I can see, the only motivation for privatization is to work some form of magic through the introduction of the profit motive. A truly competitive situation, in which the customer (the passenger) can choose among several suppliers of the *same* product or service, is not practical in public transit -- the infrastructure's too expensive to permit that.
What privatization has meant in Stockholm, at least, is turning the transit agency into a "buyer" of transit service. It decides what transit service it wants to have, and goes out and solicits bids, and awards a contract to one company or another to provide the service being tendered. The end customer, the passenger, still ends up with no choice at all.
Unfortunately, in my view, it is extremely difficult to structure a privatization in such a way that the most profitable course for the operator is to provide the best possible service to passengers. That's the challenge, and I'm not aware of any place that's fully met it -- New Zealand seems to have come rather far, but I'm not sure how far.
None of this is to say that public agencies are always good at providing the best possible service either. I'm just pointing out that privatization isn't really the cure-all it's often made out to be.
-- Tim
In a perfect world, Government's role would be to regulate so that everybody plays nice and levy taxes to finance it's own operations. Certainly, I advocate comprehensive regulation and a progressive personal income tax with a high max. bracket, but ownership should be in private hands. Only the private sector can create wealth. As for trucking, in the early '80's there was a proposal put forth by the American Trucking Associations to purchase the Interstate Highway System from the federal government. I wonder what ever became of that
Businesses love privitization. They see goldbricking civil servants ripping off the public and say gee, we could be ripping off the public instead!
Having seen first hand what a sucker the public sector is in purchasing and contracts, I have my doubts about privitization. Unles s you have an agency controlled by a group that operates more like a mafia than a group of workers, you're better off with your own team, especially in an labor shortage environment.
The private sector is quickly adjusting to the new balance of power in the labor market. The government, as usual, is behind the curve. Those contracts you sign to contract out could get quite pricy in the next few years.
Besides putting a man on the moon (even that cost a fortune), what has government EVER done effeciently?
Perfect examples: Post Office, DMV, Sanitation, TRANSIT, etc, etc........
Government has no bottom line, so there is absolutely NO incentive to fund rationally or produce a profit.
Thanks for the long and interesting piece, Tim, and for taking the trouble to translate it.
A question: Sweden has a rep in the U.S. as being an ultra-liberal country--is this deserved? I ask because I note the paragraph:
The idea was, and is, that the police always immediately intervene in even minor crimes and offenses. Anyone who jumps the turnstiles is seized, handcuffed and taken down to the station, as are those who drink beer in public areas. The police intervene as quickly to stop those who urinate on the street or in the subway as they do to stop those who park illegally.
Many in New York think that is oppressive, even though it's one of the reasons the murder rate is down from about 2200 in 1990 to about 700 today.
How would you say that plays with the Swedish "person-in-the-street"? How does Stockholm deal with petty crime?
Thanks for the long and interesting piece, Tim, and for taking the trouble to translate it.
No problem. When I saw it on the front page of my newspaper this morning, I immediately thought, "I need to translate this and post it to SubTalk."
A question: Sweden has a rep in the U.S. as being an ultra-liberal country--is this deserved? I ask because I note the paragraph:
"The idea was, and is, that the police always immediately intervene in even minor crimes and offenses. Anyone who jumps the turnstiles is seized, handcuffed and taken down to the station, as are those who drink beer in public areas. The police intervene as quickly to stop those who urinate on the street or in the subway as they do to stop those who park illegally."
Many in New York think that is oppressive, even though it's one of the reasons the murder rate is down from about 2200 in 1990 to about 700 today.
How would you say that plays with the Swedish "person-in-the-street"? How does Stockholm deal with petty crime?
Complex question. I'll try to do it justice.
First of all, I have to point out that by any American standards, Stockholm is a very safe city.
But crime is on the increase in Stockholm. One article in this morning's Metro (a free newspaper distributed on the public transport system; coming to Philadelphia soon, AIUI) said that the police are not making much use of their new ability to issue fines on the spot for certain offenses, ranging from public urination to being on the tracks of the subway. Another said that a blind man was hospitalized yesterday after being stabbed by one or more robbers at the central railway station. (I use this latter example not because I expect it to shock a bunch of jaded New Yorkers ;-), but because it's certainly not typical of what you expect to hear about happening in Sweden.)
Because of this, my impression is that the "Swede in the street" wants all kinds of offenses to be dealt with somewhat more decisively. Zero tolerance has been talked about here, and supposedly even put into practice for short periods once or twice. The underlying problem is that the police force is underfunded and can't even keep up with serious crimes; there is said to be a significant backlog of murder cases that the police don't even have time to *investigate*, much less solve.
And to get back to the subject of the article -- which was, if obliquely, the problems in Stockholm's public transit system: Someone pointed out recently, on a Swedish bulletin board that I read, that the fundamental problem is not with the network itself and how it's laid out. It's the fact that nobody is taking overall responsibility for seeing that (1) every part of the system works the way it's supposed to, and (2) the parts of the system fit together in such a way as to make a smooth, coordinated journey possible. I agree with this assessment, and with the writer's explanation for it: the privatization of Stockholm's public transport since 1993 has led to underfunding (low bidder gets the contract), resulting in staff shortages (which are, unbeknownst to the public, a MAJOR source of disruptions in service on the subway), and increased mechanical problems (another source of service disruptions in all modes).
The police are essentially suffering from similar problems, which in their case have rather different symptoms, but the overall effect is similar -- what needs to get done isn't getting done because of underfunding.
Yet Sweden has the world's highest tax burden as a percentage of GNP. Go figure.
So I'm not all that optimistic. We'll see what happens.
Best regards,
Tim Kynerd
Tim, Tos-sa-micka (Swedish for thank you ?). My Grandparrents were from your neck of the woods but wouldn't teach their childern the language (didn't want them discriminated against).
What a great site this is to have subway buffs from around the world talking with us !
Mr t__:^)
Tim, Tos-sa-micka (Swedish for thank you ?).
Yep, spelled "tack så mycket".
My Grandparrents were from your neck of the woods but wouldn't teach their childern the language (didn't want them discriminated against).
It's hard to blame them, but isn't it a shame they felt they had to do this! Certainly I think people should learn the language of the country they emigrate to, but that doesn't have to mean abandoning their native languages.
What a great site this is to have subway buffs from around the world talking with us !
Agreed!
Med vänlig hälsning
Tim Kynerd
PS FYI, I'm an American (originally from Mississippi). Didn't want anybody getting the wrong idea....
[My Grandparrents were from your neck of the woods but wouldn't teach their childern the language (didn't want them discriminated against).]
[It's hard to blame them, but isn't it a shame they felt they had to do this! Certainly I think people should learn the language of the country they emigrate to, but that doesn't have to mean abandoning their native languages.]
I agree with this. Some folks OVER HERE think it's new problem or an anti-black thing, but my generation, my kids & grandkids have no idea what it is to be Swedish, nor do they any interest in going their. I'm a genealogist and have traced my father's side to the 1630s, but can only get my mother's side back to Ellis Island (my great grandfather). My wife doesn't understand why I care about all those dead people. She also doesn't care about roots except she's proud to be mostly Irish. To me roots are an anchor that you need in life, just like a belief in God.
Tim, it sounds like you have a interesting family background !
To the rest of you folks, please pardon this non-topic rambling.
Mr t__:^)
A MVM receipt collection would be very interesting You could make a collection of receipts from all the machine locations. You could document the fastest time required to purchase a metrocard from every location, of course using the subway to get from one location to another. You could prove to the world that you are without fear by purchasing a $120 Monthly Express Bus Card in CASH from one of the more desolate, dangerous machine locations at night.
As an aside, I wonder if the MTA could make some much needed income by adding on a picture taking mechanism to the MVM so that you could have 5 candid pictures of yourself taken as you use the machine, maybe for an extra cost of $2. Sort of what they had in Coney Island years ago. It would be good for people who need pictures for passports, or just for friends who want to memorialize the day they spent together.
In the London Underground, when you buy anything longer than a day pass (weekly, monthly) you have to get a laminated photo card issued by the ticket-seller. For this purpose, they have little photo booths in the corner of many (? every?) stations. I was all set to get really ticked off when the agent asked for my photo, since I had been notified that I needed one ... and it wasn't until I asked where the nearest photo service was that he silently pointed to the corner across the mezzanine of the Maida Vale station. Ah, British reserve.
If you buy your Travelcards in the U.S. before you visit (aka a Visitor Travelcard) it's not necessary to have a photo.
I've got an unused voucher for a 7 day, 6 zone travelcard but it's not transferable and expires in February. Probably won't get the chance to use it.
HeyPaul,
That's a great idea! As at Coney Island, you could get your picture taken in a gorilla suit or a mermaid mockup! Or with your best friend's girlfriend!
Maybe you could have your picture electronically integrated so you could pose with New York personalities, like David Lynch or David Berkowitz or the Soup Nazi Guy.
Or we could save money on the 2000 election--you could pose with Rudy or Hillary and they could just see which one sells more MetroCards.
You're a genius!
I forgot to mention that accompanying these two articles were three illustrations:
-- A schematic diagram of the New York subway, with only certain stations marked (and some names wrong; I'm not aware of a station called "Colombia University," exactly, and certainly not of one called "Port Authority Bus Terminal" ;-) or of one called "Qeensboro Plaza"). This has an inset showing the Stockholm subway for comparison.
-- A nice color picture showing one wall of the remodeled Franklin Avenue station with the stained glass.
-- A good B/W shot of the Manhattan skyline from Smith/9th.
Tim
[A schematic diagram of the New York subway, with only certain stations marked (and some names wrong; I'm not aware of a station called "Colombia University]
It's on the Bogota Metro.
Seriously though, thanks for posting such an interesting article.
Add my thanks too, not only for posting -- but for translating as well!
To all of you who thanked me for posting the article: You're very welcome.
As for the translation, I really like to translate, so I just decided to do this during my lunch hour yesterday. I got my lunch and sat at my desk, translating while I ate, and then posted the article to SubTalk.
Glad you all enjoyed it.
Regards,
Tim
-- A schematic diagram of the New York subway, with only certain stations marked (and some names wrong; I'm not aware of a station called "Colombia University," exactly, and certainly not of one called "Port Authority Bus Terminal" ;-) or of one called "Qeensboro Plaza"). This has an inset showing the Stockholm subway for comparison.
The 116 St/Columbia University stop is on the Upper West Side of Manhattan on the Broadway IRT (1/9) line.
The 42 St/Port Authority Bus Terminal stop is on the west side of Midtown Manhattan on the 8th Avenue IND (A/C/E) line.
The Queensboro Plaza stop is just across the river in Queens on the Corona / Flushing IRT (7) and the Astoria BMT (N) lines. As mentioned elsewhere on this site, this station is unique in that it is the only station in the system with a cross-platform trasfer between an IRT Division and an IND/BMT Division line.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Um, you missed a couple of things.
That's Columbia University, not Col*o*mbia University. The latter is what the map in the newspaper showed.
And AFAIK it's Queensboro Plaza, not Qeensboro Plaza. Same problem there.
I don't recall "Port Authority Bus Terminal" being part of the official name of any subway station. If it is, then I stand corrected.
Regards,
Tim
You are correct; it isn't!
The IND 8th ave. line, **42d St.** Station (A,C,E) is the stop which has a lower level entrance to the PABT, outside the fare zone.
There also is a walkway, within the fare zone, from this station to the **Times Square - 42d St** Stations for the IRT and BMT (1,2,3,9,N,R,S) at 7th Ave & Broadway.
I can see the new design being done on the old express platform at Canal Street, seems that when it is ever finished, it will look really nice. Anyone knows when the "N" will return to the express line via the bridge or will we have to wait until the 2nd Avenue Subway is bulit to see it open(though i hope it happens within my lifetime)
We have all these ideas and thoughts about transit, has anybody ever tried contacting high level MTA officials with them? Maybe we could compile a list and send a letter.
I've had the opportunity, over the years, to speak with TA/MTA/City officials (and some other cities, too) at levels running from middle to fairly high (but in NYC, never very "top," except maybe to say hello).
Watching this evolve over 3-4 decades, I'm inclined to say that high level officials are less likely to be influenced by the peanut gallery than, say, 30 years ago.
Part of this might be because there is so much organized advocacy now, so that officialdom only responds to the noisiest or best connected (example--Straphangers' Campaign has the ear of the New York Times).
Another reason might be that high officials answer too much to politicians and power brokers than to customers and the marketplace.
We have some "suits" that visit the board. Maybe they could comment on these observations.
[Watching this evolve over 3-4 decades, I'm inclined to say that high level officials [TA/MTA/City] are less likely to be influenced by the peanut gallery than, say, 30 years ago.
Part of this might be because there is so much organized advocacy now, so that officialdom only responds to the noisiest or best connected (example--Straphangers' Campaign has the ear of the New York Times).
Another reason might be that high officials answer too much to politicians and power brokers than to customers and the marketplace.]
It's a shame that the business community hasn't gotten together to demand transit improvements. If a large company says it'll move to the Sunbelt if it doesn't get tax breaks, City Hall sends over a blank check so fast it'll make your head spin.
If we can dream for a minute, imagine if the suits at, say, Citibank decided that inadequate transit was cutting down on productivity. That's not impossible to imagine, as workers who arrive late all frazzled by transit delays aren't likely to work up to their full potential. Inadequate transit also might make recruitng more difficult. At any rate, Citibank's CEO calls the Mayor and says that they'll be relocating to Phoenix or Atlanta unless the full Second Avenue line (none of that stubway nonsense) is running within a few years. You can rest 100% assured that the line would be opened on schedule.
It's a shame that the business community hasn't gotten together to demand transit improvements. If a large company says it'll move to the Sunbelt if it doesn't get tax breaks, City Hall sends over a blank check so fast it'll make your head spin.
If we can dream for a minute, imagine if the suits at, say, Citibank decided that inadequate transit was cutting down on productivity. That's not impossible to imagine, as workers who arrive late all frazzled by transit delays aren't likely to work up to their full potential. Inadequate transit also might make recruitng more difficult. At any rate, Citibank's CEO calls the Mayor and says that they'll be relocating to Phoenix or Atlanta unless the full Second Avenue line (none of that stubway nonsense) is running within a few years. You can rest 100% assured that the line would be opened on schedule
Money talks, Bulls__t walks!
Ah, Yes, This is in line with my proper use theory for big business fear tactics. I wish Citibank or somebody would do something like this to CRUSH THE NIMBYS
Having the business community advocate transit routes was the norm until Mayor Hylan, who advanced the idea that business interests were too self-interested to be involved in noble pursuits like transit development.
I've tried to open my mouth on the Manhattan Bridge issue, which is of particular interest to me. All I've got for my trouble is a stupid City Planning study that appears likely to fizzle out. They want to duck their head and say maybe the bridge will be fine and maybe it won't but we already paid to fix it so we can't pay more, but maybe there will be a replacement tunnel someday (barf).
I want them to at least endorse the MTA's DeKalb -Rutgers connection. The plan seems to be to wait until the redevelopment of Fulton Ferry places enough NIMBY neighbors in its path to make it impossible or prohibitively expensive to build. The Planning Department has a rule against thinking ahead. One political deal at a time, that's our motto.
[I want them to at least endorse the MTA's DeKalb -Rutgers connection. The plan seems to be to wait until the redevelopment of Fulton Ferry places enough NIMBY neighbors in its path to make it impossible or prohibitively expensive to build. The Planning Department has a rule against thinking ahead. One political deal at a time, that's our motto.]
Can you provide a few more details on this? Either to SubTalk or to me personally? Thanks ....
Part of Fulton Ferry was recently rezoned to permit residential conversions (which haven't spread east of the MB -- yet). There was an organized group of (illegal) residents and property owners to fight with it.
The MTA proposed the Rutgers/DeKalb connection in a study that disclosed just how dicey the future of the MB is. The study was deep sixed, and the plan was dropped. Pataki (Cuomo) figures if the bridge fails, they can cut service and blame the city. Giuliani (Dinkins, Koch) hopes to be out of office before anything bad happens.
City Planning got funding to re-study the issue (I suggested it), but can't release something that implies a criticism of the non-decision. To make things worse, the guy in the transportation division who knew a lot about the system left for a new job in the middle of the project. The best we can hope for is a muddle that gets filed in a drawer.
But I have E-mailed the Mayor and Governor on this one, a legislator or two, a newspaper or two. I yelled at the head of the MTA Lower Manhattan Access study for planning to connect the suburbs while cutting off Brooklyn. A member of the Mayor's staff E-mailed back that the subways are the responsibility of the MTA, a state agency. The MTA Lower Manhattan guy pointed out that the Manhattan is a city bridge, and the MTA is just a tenant.
Maybe if all you guys started contacting newspapers, polticos, etc. someone would notice. The Brooklyn political delegation certainly hasn't.
How difficult is this connection? I don't have the track book here, and on the map the two lines (F tunnel & B/D/Q on M. Bridge) cross over each other. Assume it'd be allow cross-running among all directions of these lines, but are both below grade at that point? What's on top of them? Would the connector be west of the split between the West End and Brighton Lines? Thanks ....
This connection would be a waste of money, as that tunnel cannot handle all the 6th Ave. trains going through Dekalb along with current F service.
[This connection would be a waste of money, as that tunnel cannot handle all the 6th Ave. trains going through Dekalb along with current F service.]
The connection could not replace the Manhattan Bridge. But if/when the bridge becomes completely useless, the connection would make it possible for at least some trains to get to Manhattan. Brooklyn's subway service would be much worse than it is today, but it (hopefully) would not be a complete disaster.
I'd rather see the money spent on a replacement tunnel for the bridge.
[I'd rather see the money spent on a replacement tunnel for the bridge.]
Me too. But a Rutgers/DeKalb connection would be far cheaper and could be built much more quickly.
I doubt that. The bridge tracks are already well above the tracks at York St, where they cross the IND tracks. There would be the need for considerable tunneling to be able to connect them at an underground grade.
Chris: So how difficult is this connection? I don't have the track book here, but if the bridge tracks are up in the air and the IND lines are tunneled, what would it REALISTICALLY take? Is this a project roughly equal in complexity to the 63rd Street connector, say?
And, would the Rutgers/DeKalb connector be west of the split between the West End and Brighton Lines so that both lines would receive traffic from the running-at-capacity F tunnel?
The plan was to branch off from the A/B tracks past the last junction, slope down, and merge in past York There is enough room. When the whole area is occupied by Yuppies, I don't know.
No one is going to build a replacement tunnel for Brooklyn. The only people in Brooklyn who matter have other options, and would oppose.
There will be a replacement tunnel....as soon as the present bridge is deemed unsafe and is forced to close.
(As soon as the bridge is deemed unsafe there will be a replacement tunnel).
You mean a decade or more later. By them much of Brooklyn's middle class will have moved to the suburbs, taking a loss on their house (if they own one) in the process, with their place taken by those who do not work in Manhattan or (since there are not enough jobs in Broooklyn) at all. Brooklyn would suffer a catastrophic loss of population and income. By the time the tunnel is built, it will no longer be needed.
Perhaps a half million people can move out to Long Island if the LIRR to GCT is built. They can become illegal tenents in one-family zones, since they will no longer be able to afford a house.
Perhaps what is now Bensonhurst and Boro Park can be used for the new Fresh Kills.
When Reuter visited City Planning and I asked him about the bridge he even told me (before I told him) that if the bridge were lost the southern rim of Brooklyn would be depopulated, thus showing he isn't the idiot some people say.
How about a proper BRIDGE to replace the existing bridge? One that is built to handle railroad, auto and truck traffic properly. Price tag?
'Bout $4 Billion. But once built, it would last a couple hundred years.
Wayne
I'm sure you could build 4 tunnels for a lot less and retrofit the existing Manhattan Bridge to auto traffic only. Once the trains are gone the bridge will probably be much mre structurally sound.
We went over this a couple of months ago. The only way to build a new bridge would be to tear down the Manhattan Bridge and build a completely new span in the exact same spot, and the five-to-seven year delays that would cause would scare off all the politicians. A paralell bridge (build it and then tear down the Manhattan) would require a landing in Manhattan somewhere either around Chatham Square or near Pike and Canal Streets -- the NIMBY outcry would be incredible.
Ideally, they would build the Rutgers connection and run the B though that (turning it from a Sixth Ave. express to a Sixth Ave. local via 63rd St. in the process), and build a new tunnel for the D/N/Q to use with connections to both the Grand St. station for the Sixth Ave. D and Canal St. for the N and Q on Broadway.
Unfortunately, a slow deterioration of the bridge will probably never spark enough of a public outcry to get that project off the groud. A catasrophic failure that could be milked by the tabs and the TV station for months -- that's another story. You'd get the tunnel funds within six months of the disaster.
11/06/99
This is a very interesting yet serious problem. Placing the subway tracks on the outside of the Manny B and years of train traffic , may cause a possible catastrophy. Though the TA is quiet about this , they must plan NOW and not put it off like the Second Avenue subway. A catastrophy causing a indefinite TOTAL shutdown of this bridge would even cause a transit calamity of enormous proportions.
Years of flexing of the main deck from passing trains in both directions over the years may spell a problem known as "metal fatigue". Go down to the TA's Transit Museum , look at B-type #2204. Check out where the black roof meets the brown sides. See the slight bulges between the rivets?,that's metal fatigue.
The TA better take this seriously and confer with the DOT and predict (if possible) the future of this span. If the future looks bleak despite any repairs , it may be time for some serious action and not a subway line to the Meadowlands!
Bill Newkirk
No one is going to build a replacement tunnel. My thought is that if you had the Rutgers/DeKalb connection AND a Chambers/Grand connection (discussed by the MTA in the East River Crossing Study), one could run up to 50 percent more trains than today OFF PEAK without using the bridge, while serving all stations. Rush hours, you could run just one service per side. Weekly bridge traffic would fall 70 to 75 percent.
If they did that, maybe the amount of metal fatigue would be low enough to make this $500 million fix last. Or, if you were only using the bridge five hours per day five days per week, maybe you could replace the metal as fast as it cracks. That's my suggestion, anyway.
I also thing you need to build a new toll tunnel, then push the trucks off the Willie B and Manhanttan as well, to reduce the stress.
Without doing this stuff, and soon, I'm afraid we'll be right back in the same boat (or worse) 15 years after the latest fix is finished in 2004, with $500 million down the drain.
Why another toll tunnel? I never remember the Battery Tunnel being crowded at all.
11/07/99
Just one question on the DeKalb/Rutgers connection. If this connection were to become reality and the north side Manhattan Bridge tracks were abandoned , what would become of Grand Street?
Bill Newkirk
Remember what they did in '95? The had a shuttle from Broadway-Lafayette to Grand Street. That's what their also going to do the next couple of weekends too. They're closing down the bridge again. If they do build another bridge they should get the same guys that did the Williamsburg Bridge, but I'm not sure if they specialize ion building the bridge. Just don't get the same guys that did the original work!!!
Whoa!!! That didn't come out right! I meant to say "but I'm not sure on building bridges from scrap" Sorry :(
11/08/99
MR. R-68A,
I don't remember the closure in '95 but I remember the earlier closure in the 80's when the TA must have found any graffittied R-27/30 with flat wheels to run on the (S) 6th Ave shuttle !!
Bill Newkirk
Those trains rivaled the R10 for sheer noise.
Unless they built a new tunnel, or a connection to the Nassau Street loop, either:
1: The MTA would institute a shuttle (S not SS) between Broadway-Lafayette and Grand and run switch both the B and D over to the F track to run through the Rutgers tunnel;
2. The B would terminate at Grand, the D would run through Rutgers, or:
3. The MTA would simply close Grand Street and run the B and D through Rutgers.
Also, if the Manhattan Bridge closes, either the M would have to become the full-time Brighton express service, replacing the Q, or the Q would have to be switched back to Broadway and the M would terminate at Chambers or Broad full time. They could probably squeeze the B D and F through Rutgers, but four lines through one tunnel is impossible in rush hour.
And 3 would be impossible through that tunnel, because a 4 minute headway on the F line during rush hours is a must.
Unless you turned some Fs at Second Ave. to maintain existing Sixth Ave.-Queens service and extended the G to Chruch Ave. or Kings Highway during rush hours to make up the difference (I know, I know -- Park Slope and Carroll Gardens don't want a train that doesn't go into Manhattan, but we're talking about what would happen if the bridge became completely unavailable, and the Brighton and West End seem to get priority over the Culver in the MTA's book)
Completely impossible. There would be 3 trains using the same track from south of W4 to 2nd Ave. Talk about a bottleneck. If the Rutger St. tunnel were to be used as a replacement for the bridge, the F train would have to have service cut significantly, something that cannot be done.
If we had the Rutgers/DeKalb connection, and a Chambers/Grand connection, we wouldn't need to use the bridge except during rush hours. For example, aside from rush hours, the F, D, and Q are scheduled for no more than 8, 6, and 6 trains per hour. That would fit. The Chambers/Grand connection would allow Grand Street to be served 24/7 and put another service on 6th Avenue via the Montague.
Imagine this "base" service: F, D, Q (with new connection) via Rutgers -- 20 trains today, up to 30 possible. B (6th Ave via Chambers to Grand connection), N, and R via Montague -- 18 trains today, up to 30 possible. The M only runs through to Brooklyn during rush hours.
During rush hours, you'd still need the bridge. Perhaps you'd move the N to the H tracks to make room for the M and more R trains, and the D to the A/B tracks to make room for more F and Q trains.
Maybe if subway (and truck traffic) were reduced on the bridge, the current fix would last, and the bridge could remain in use.
The trucks have no where to go if the bridge was closed! They would have to frive up to the Williamsburg, but they are preparing to rebuild the Manhattan-Bound roadway.
(Where would the trucks go?) A new toll tunnel. Polically, you might get away with making commercial vehicles pay tolls in a new facilities, since most people think trucks have nothing to do with them. Cars are a different story, however.
None of these will ever happen our lifetime, why $$$$$$$$$$$$
...unless you have a catastophic failure on the Manhattan bridge that results in loss of live and galvanizes public opinion (and the local media) to force politicians to do something.
It's sad to think that it would take the deaths of people to get the problem solved, but nowadays you need a compelling story that shocks people into action or touches their hearts to get anything done. A steel girder from thew bridge collapsing onto a building or an R-68 plunge into the East River meets those requirements.
Or a earthquake, I still picture the SF Bay Bridge in 89, and the AC District Bus only 5 feet from the collapse.
Three trains (B,D,Q) now use the 6th Ave. express tracks, why couldn't three use the local tracks instead? The Rutgers tunnel is very much underutilized today.
They might do it if and when the Q goes back to Broadway, the may run a local thru the 63rd St Tunnel up 6th
11/09/99
I have another question about this subject:
The city (DOT) is rebuilding the Manhattan Bridge or so it seems. Would it be wise for the TA to go ahead with the Rutgers connection anyway just in case or would they be questioned as to why spending great sums of money for a connection that won't be utilized ?
Bill Newkirk
Again money, where is it going to come from?
Because the F runs much more frequently than either the B, D or Q during rushhours. Right now the trip over the bridge during the rush is slow to begin with. F servce cannot be cut, due to ridership needs in Queens.
Because the F runs much more frequently than either the B, D or Q during rushhours. Right now the trip over the bridge during the rush is slow to begin with. F servce cannot be cut, due to ridership needs in Queens.
What they could do is have some F-Trains turning back to Queens at B'way-Lafayette, as in pre-Chrystie St. days.
Any routing that you could come up will include an unbearable bottleneck at this location. Where would you turn trains around? B'way Laffayette cannot be used like it was pre-1967 because there would be train service coming from Grand St., which didn't exist then. B'way Lafayette cant be used as a terminal. Using Second Ave. would require all trains sharing a track for a short period, which is impossible at today's present service levels.
Well, if the TA put in a switch on the center track at Essex St., you could turn some of the Fs at Broadway-Lafayette by using the old KK connection.
It would be a bit of a trip for the F just to change direction, but we are talking about an emergency situation if the bridge were to go out completely. And it would get the F off the main line quickly to avoid backups with the B and D (I'm assuming the Q would go Broadway/Montague tunnel if the bridge shut down)
Of course there are advantages of having this connection should the bridge be lost completely. However, the cost in dollars and manpower would be much more productive if it were used to build replacement tunnels for the 6th Ave. Manhattan bridge tracks (tunnels for the Broadway tracks would be a luxury).
We also know how "emergency re-routes" become permanent service changes in the TA's mind.
Well, if the TA put in a switch on the center track at Essex St., you could turn some of the Fs at Broadway-Lafayette by using the old KK connection.
It would be a bit of a trip for the F just to change direction, but we are talking about an emergency situation if the bridge were to go out completely. And it would get the F off the main line quickly to avoid backups with the B and D (I'm assuming the Q would go Broadway/Montague tunnel if the bridge shut down)
In an emergency situation, they could even cut the volume of F service from Jamaica-179 St. to Stillwell in half, and reinstitute the old K service, instead of 57+6, going all the way to Jamaica-179 from Jamaica Center/Parsons, and eliminate Z service. The K could run skip-stop with the J, like it used to. That way, only half the the F-Train volume would be using the Rutgers Tunnel. The rest of Queens IND service out of Jam/179, the K, would be using the Williamsburgh Bridge.
But this also cuts half the service on the F in Brooklyn, which carries almost as many passangers as the F in Queens. So you cant even do that. And any service by the old "K" would have trains limited to 8 cars, and no 75 footers allowed.
But this also cuts half the service on the F in Brooklyn, which carries almost as many passangers as the F in Queens. So you cant even do that. And any service by the old "K" would have trains limited to 8 cars, and no 75 footers allowed.
Probably what we're going to see when the MB closes is D to 34 St., B to Grand St. with a B West End Shuttle, only Q service on the Brighton, and everything else as is. I don't think we're going to see the Rutgers/DeKalb connection, or anything else that any of us are thinking about. Then watch the bottlenecks. I don't see mucho bucks being spent on a fix that is only going to be temporary. Whatever the TA and the City decide, the Culver Shuttle would have been a vital link now. That way, people could have taken the F into Brooklyn from Manhattan and had a link to the West End. If the Culver Shuttle wasn't torn down, it could have been made usable again for this emergency. It was left standing for many years after it closed.
11/10/99
BMT LINES,
I assume your prediction includes the reopening of the SOUTH side Manhattan Bridge tracks.
Bill Newkirk
I assume your prediction includes the reopening of the SOUTH side Manhattan Bridge tracks.
I would like to see complete restoration of MB service--North and South tracks. I don't know what we're going to ultimately see. It will probably be a lot less than we hoped for!
Barring an emergency, there will be at least one set of bridge tracks open at all times. Shutting both down is not an option.
But this also cuts half the service on the F in Brooklyn, which carries almost as many passangers as the F in Queens. So you cant even do that. And any service by the old "K" would have trains limited to 8 cars, and no 75 footers allowed.
It would be impossible for the F in Brooklyn to carry almost as many passengers as the F in Queens:
1-Queens is a larger borough than Brooklyn.
2-Brooklyn has far many more routes and route miles than Queens.
3-Passengers in Brooklyn have more alternatives than in Queens.
4-Many people in Queens come to the Queens IND from further out with busses, far more than do in Brooklyn.
5-The Queens IND line also gets riders from Nassau and Suffolk counties that drive to the IND Queens Line and park their cars in Municipal parking lots for the day.
The bottom line on this debate is that Brooklyn would be uncomfortable without the Smith St./Culver line, but Queens would be devastated without the Queens IND subway. MANY MORE PEOPLE USE THE F IN QUEENS THAN THEY USE THE F IN BROOKLYN. As for emergency route changes, you do what you have to do in a temporary crisis situation--even if it means cutting service on the Culver and running 8 car trains on the Queens Line and 6th Ave. B'way/Jamaica Line. With a Manhattan Bridge closing, loads of people are going to be inconvenienced, but you need to try to keep service as normal as possible for the city as a whole.
They'd better not scrap a SINGLE R32, R38, R40, R40M or R42 - if the Manhattan bridge fails and the above "K" scenario arises, they'll need every spare unit they can get their hands on.
Can't they push some of the "B" (we should call it "T") Brooklyn trains through to Whitehall at least?
Wayne
They'd better not scrap a SINGLE R32, R38, R40, R40M or R42 - if the Manhattan bridge fails and the above "K" scenario arises, they'll need every spare unit they can get their hands on.
Can't they push some of the "B" (we should call it "T") Brooklyn trains through to Whitehall at least?
Wayne
Everything you say makes sense--about the 32, 38 ,40, 40M &42, and also about the T. It also would have helped to ease the situation if the Culver Shuttle wasn't scrapped. The structure remained for so many years after service on it was discontinued. It could have been mad fit to run again and pressed into emergency service to provide a vital link between the F and B, after the Manh. Bridge would close. But answer one question for me:
DOES THE MTA EVERDO ANYTHING THAT MAKES SENSE?
Like I said in an earlier post, probably what we'll see is D to 34 St., B to Grand St., B West End Shuttle, Q-only service on the Brighton and everything else as is (N and Q via B'way thru tunnel and F as is), and no Rutgers/DeKalb link.
11/10/99
If the Culver Shuttle structure wasn't razed and rehabbed as an emergency only route:
1) Would it be a single track only route?
2) Would the 13th Ave/ and Ft.Hamilton Pkwy stations be removed?
3) Would the neighborhood protest the rehabbing of the structure thus ending the "quiet" of the area?
4) Or even protest removal of the stations depriving the area of subway service?
Just some observations on the Culver Shuttle demolition that sort of compares with Pennsylvania Station demolition. IT's gone and the more we think about, the more we regret what a obvious blunder it was.
Bill Newkirk
It would require major construction, as the shuttle connected to the Coney Island bound F line. A new structure would have had to have been built at both ends to allow West End trains to run along it without having to discharge and turn around north of 9th Ave. Then the same thing would have had to have been done at Ditmas, to allow the train to turn onto the Manhattan bound Culver tracks. Serious construction would have to be undertaken, and there would also likely be a nasty grade crossing north of Ditmas. And what about the G? With new B service, their wouldn't be any capacity for the G train south of Hoyt St. So even this plan is full of flaws.
Build the !@#$%& replacement tunnels....starting today. I'll get the shovels.
Can you put a crossover entering Hoyt from the east to allow G's to reverse there? I've always wondered why there wasn't one. Is the grade or curve too sharp?
It would require major construction, as the shuttle
connected to the Coney Island bound F line. A new
structure would have had to have been built at both
ends to allow West End trains to run along it
without having to discharge and turn around north of
9th Ave. Then the same thing would have had to have
been done at Ditmas, to allow the train to turn onto
the Manhattan bound Culver tracks. Serious
construction would have to be undertaken, and there
would also likely be a nasty grade crossing north of
Ditmas. And what about the G? With new B service,
their wouldn't be any capacity for the G train south
of Hoyt St. So even this plan is full of flaws.
Build the !@#$%& replacement tunnels....starting
today. I'll get the shovels.
And I'll call for the TBMs, we'll need four of those suckers to chew through the riverbed. Or maybe we'll pull a Navy Yard-Anacostia - build four prefab tubes and drop 'em into the water one segment at a time.
Hey, instead of rebuilding the Culver Shuttle, why not build a short SUBWAY along, say, 39th Street (9th Avenue is already underground), and ramp it up to 18th Avenue station along McDonald? It would be a mess for a little while, but might be doable. Include one station at 12th Avenue.
Wayne
If the 2 old Culver stations were to be kept, I'd love to see the passangers on the B train as their conductor said "this is Fort Hamilton Pkwy, next stop is....Fort Hamilton Pkwy".
11/10/99
If the Culver Shuttle structure wasn't razed and rehabbed as an emergency only route:
1) Would it be a single track only route?
2) Would the 13th Ave/ and Ft.Hamilton Pkwy stations be removed?
3) Would the neighborhood protest the rehabbing of the structure thus ending the "quiet" of the area?
4) Or even protest removal of the stations depriving the area of subway service?
Just some observations on the Culver Shuttle demolition that sort of compares with Pennsylvania Station demolition. IT's gone and the more we think about, the more we regret what a obvious blunder it was.
Bill Newkirk
As a railfan, I would use this as an excuse to restore full 3-track operation over the whole line, but that's just a wild dream. No, practically speaking, 1-track operation without reopening 13 AV and Ft. H'ton Pkwy. to provide a vital link between B and F. Unless residents benefit by a reopening, yes they'll complain.
To bad about complaining, the el was there first, just like developers put houses near airports, then the buyers complain they are under the glide paths and it is too noisy.
The Culver El was on a ROW between 37th and 38th Streets IIRC..homes are there now, so any new structure would have to go over a street.
I can just see their faces now - "YOU'RE GONNA BUILD A WHAT???"
Wayne
The Culver El was on a ROW between 37th and 38th Streets IIRC..homes are there now, so any new structure would have to go over a street.
I can just see their faces now - "YOU'RE GONNA BUILD A WHAT???"
Wayne
Yeah! Maybe they should forget about building a subway on 2nd Ave and rebuild the el there instead! Do it in Victorian style again. This time, build it with 4 tracks instead of 3.
They could take a lesson on structure from Bart and Miami, built on Concrete rather then steel. To solve the problem of the bridge. Terminate all the trainsover the bridge at Atlantic Ave/Pacific St and run a shuttle across the bridge, and continue at Broadway/Canal and Grand. It sounds crazy, but dreaming of a new tunnel, as I keep asking where is the money coming from. Higher taxes and fares, I doubt it
As for 1, that is not true. While Queens may have a greater land area, that means nothing. The Dominion of Canada is the second largest country in the world, yet only 20 million people reside there. Brooklyn is the largest borough, with 2.3 million. Queens has 1.7.
As for 1, that is not true. While Queens may have a greater land area, that means nothing. The Dominion of Canada is the second largest country in the world, yet only 20 million people reside there. Brooklyn is the largest borough, with 2.3 million. Queens has 1.7.
Being larger in area, with less subway access, and Long Islanders driving to the subway, there are still far more riders on the F in Queens than there are in Brooklyn. That is what I am saying here-- RIDERSHIP, not population. Besides 2.3M is not that much greater than 1.7M. If someone told me he'd give me $2.3 million, and later changed his mind and said he could give me only $1.7 million, I'd take it and tell him "No Problem!"
Yes, many people drive to ride the Queens IND, but they have alternatives that passangers along the F line in Brooklyn do not, like the E and R trains. Have you ever ridden the Manhattan bound F in the AM rush? They are nearly, if not just as much as crowded as the F in Queens. F services Park Slope, an area full of upies who own no cars. 7th Ave. in the AM rush is almost as crowded as Union Tpke in Queens.
Anyone know for sure the ridership of the F in Queens as opposed to Brooklyn? I bet they are close.
Yes, many people drive to ride the Queens IND, but they have alternatives that passangers along the F line in Brooklyn do not, like the E and R trains.
Most people that use the F in Brooklyn can more easily get to other lines if they had to. Seventh Ave. is not that far from 4 Ave. The Culver Line is not that far from the Brighton, which it parallels, and also the Sea Beach, which it parallels for a stretch. Close the Smith St./Culver line and people will find alternatives. Close the IND Queens Line and it will choke the borough.
This thread has gotten a long way from reality. The connection between Queens and Manhattan is improving as a result of the substantial investment in the 63rd St tunnel. The connection between Brooklyn and Manhattan is theatened because of the deterioration of th e Manhattan Bridge. The F is not threatened directly, but would be hurt by all those people taking buses to the train if B/D/Q/M/N/R service had to be cut in half.
The city has spend zillions to fix the bridge, but it still cracks every time a train goes over. It will be closed for the next three weekends for repairs. The engineers say all will be well in 2004. The same people who said the bridge could be fixed in three years for $100 million in 1982.
The problem is not that the bridge will disappear tomarrow. Its that it will be repeatedly out of service with no way to reroute trains, and eventually close with no replacement in sight.
I understand that. But people have consistently come up with plans that would drastically cut F service to Brooklyn, something which is impossible today, let alone a time when/if the Manhattan Bridge closes.
Again, completely impossible, as that would dump all the riders from the F line on to other lines, the very same lines that would have their service cut drastically should the Manhattan Bridge be lost. If it is, the Culver IND will see even MORE passangers, and any cuts in service would be even worse. You cannot cut service on the F line in Brooklyn to make way for a Rutger/Dekalb connection.
If the F is sharing track space with the E through the 53rd St. tunnel, and is sharing track space with no other line through the Rutgers tunnel, it therefore means there is space for at least one other full-time line to use a Rutgers-DaKalb connection, either the B or the D. If you tried to send all three lines through Rutgers, then an adjustment would have to be made through 53rd St., increasing the number of E trains in proportion to the number of F trains that were cut back to permit B/D service to share the Rutgers trackage.
You would also have to cut into the number of B and D trains a bit, but not as much as with the F because those two lines already are sharing trackage with the Q between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center. It would mean overall service cuts for the Sixth Ave. line, and even more for the West End, if the Q took the M's place through the Montague tunnel, but it would be the best compromise solution to a problem that should have been dealt with 15 years ago.
I understand there is room for one more line through the tunnel, and one is eventually planned (V). However, you cannot use it as an adequate replacement for the bridge tracks. Only one line can be sent through it. That's really insufficient service for service through dekalb Ave. You can't cut F service because it is needed in Brooklyn as well as Queens, and extra E service doesn't do jack-squat for Brooklyn F riders. People continue to imagine that you can cut F service dramatically and get away with it. F trains are crowded as it is. Imagine the crowding as B and D riders, seeking alternate service to/from Brooklyn, cram on the F.
[You can't cut F service because it is needed in Brooklyn as well as Queens, and extra E service doesn't do jack-squat for Brooklyn F riders.]
But ChrisR, the E is only running every five minutes during rush hours compare to the F which runs every 2.5 minutes. Read your time schedule.
Before you knock the E service, please understand that the E is more heavily used than the F. Just go to the World Trade Center and Jamaica Center stations, the trains are full.
Stop complaining...
No, I think the fact that the F runs more frequently means it is more heavily used than the E.
Besides, every 2.5 minutes means 24 trains per hour on the F in Queens during rush hour. I've been told it's only 18 per hour (every 4 minutes).
I though I mentioned that yesterday about the Culver line and connecting Bus Service at almost every station to the Brighton Line
There seems to be some ignorance of the actual schedule here. There is more service in the peak direction in Queens than in Brooklyn -- 18 per hour for Queens, 14 per hour for Brooklyn. AM you have more trains going to Coney Island than to Manhattan.
I understand that. However, you can't cut service on the F line, as some have suggested.
There is no way to tell the difference in ridership in Brooklyn and Queens, because on most of the Queens lines, it shares with the E/R/G where the Brooklyn Portion shares only 2 stations with the G, unless you pick say Church Ave and 179th St where there is only one line serving it. Also if the Brooklyn Line is so crowded. why did the TA eliminate Express Service on the Brooklyn Portion during Rush Hours?
Because then the passengers at the local stations would complain about direct service to Manhattan?
3TM
The F would run as before Expresses Starting at Coney Island, Locals at Kings Highway(and visa versa) There would still be direct service into the city, the G would go to Church Ave instead of Smith 9th at that time
The F would run as before Expresses Starting at Coney Island, Locals at Kings Highway(and visa versa) There would still be direct service into the city, the G would go to Church Ave instead of Smith 9th at that time
Also the Brighton Line is less then a mile from the Culver and has connecting Bus Service at every stop between the 2 lines south of 7th Ave except Ditmas Ave & Ave P, where people can change iin case of a closing
Also the Brighton Line is less then a mile from the Culver and has connecting Bus Service at every stop between the 2 lines south of 7th Ave except Ditmas Ave & Ave P, where people can change in case of a closing
I wasn't talking about a closing. My idea was to cut F service in half and replace the other half with a K service that would run from Jamaica/179 St., down 6 Ave., thru the Chrystie St. connection, over the WB Bridge to Jamaica Center/Parsons, running skip-stop with the J, thereby eliminating Z service. Cutting F service in half and replacing the other half of it with this K service would lighten the load on the Rutgers tunnel, enabling B and D service to proceed thru Rutgers with less of a bottleneck than with full F service. The B and D would then go through the new proposed Rutgers/DeKalb link and enable the lines to run with as little disruption as possible. A response to this was that F service couldn't be cut in half because almost as many people ride the F in Brooklyn as they do in Queens. That isn't true, with all the routes and route miles in Brooklyn. Cutting Culver service in half would just shift some riders to other lines. Some would go to the Brighton, some to the West End, and some would remain on the Culver. The idea is to try to keep as normal service running as possible with a Manhattan Bridge closure.
As a rider of the F line, I can say without a doubt that any cuts in F service in Brooklyn are completely impossible because of the crowds that use it. Cutting it in half? You're crazy.
As a rider of the F line, I can say without a doubt that any cuts in F service in Brooklyn are completely impossible because of the crowds that use it. Cutting it in half? You're crazy.
Any time you change subway service, you upset a very delicate balance that will affect more things than anticipated. It is like the planet's ecosystem. That's why developing the Everglades or the Amazon Jungle would devistate the planet. (Talk about getting off topic!) Getting back to the topic at hand, the Rutgers/DeKalb connection, what is your idea on how to handle the bottleneck that would be caused by routing B and D trains thru the Rutgers Tunnel with the F? Leaving the level of service as it is will cause gridlock conditions. Something is going to have to be cut, if not one service,
a little of everything. The same bottleneck would result if all Brighton service, Sea Beach and West End service were routed up Broadway via the Montague St. Tunnel. The only reason why all Broadway service worked prior to Chrystie St. was because we had both bridge and tunnel service. BTW, the reason for our conflicting opinions is because I'm an F Queens rider, while you're an F Brooklyn rider.
My idea: Build tunnels NOW to replace the bridge tracks. It's the only way that would prevent a transit disaster should the bridge be completely lost. Spending money on a Rutger/Dekalb connection isn't worth the money that will be needed for it's construction, because it creates as many problems as it solves.
My idea: Build tunnels NOW to replace the bridge tracks. It's the only way that would prevent a transit disaster should the bridge be completely lost. Spending money on a Rutger/Dekalb connection isn't worth the money that will be needed for it's construction, because it creates as many problems as it solves.
I am in total agreement. If building a replacement tunnel takes as long as the 2nd Ave. Subway, we're all in trouble! Building a 4-track replacement tunnel is the best solution to the MB problem, but I don't see it happening any time soon, if at all. The cost would be too prohibitive. Also, we're dealing with the City and the MTA. Do you see a replacement tunnel being built any time soon? If the bridge collapses, we'll probably get Rutgers. Without a major disaster, we'll just get bandaids. When it first was discovered that there was a serious problem with Manhattan Bridge, a decision should have been made to build a 4-track subway tunnel to get the B'way and 6th Ave. trains off the bridge.
"The cost would be too prohibitive."
How much will it cost to build a full four track tunnel for the B, D, N and Q lines from Manhattan to Brooklyn?
N Broadway Line
"The cost would be too prohibitive."
How much will it cost to build a full four track tunnel for the B, D, N and Q lines from Manhattan to Brooklyn?
N Broadway Line
I couldn't say. I do know that it wouldn't run cheap. We're talking about a river tunnel, not cut'n'cover. They can't even get the damn 2nd Ave. Subway built, they're going to build a tunnel to replace the bridge tracks! Believe me, I'd love to see it, but I don't think its going to happen. Look how long it took for Archer Ave. and the 63rd St. tunnel. The 63rd St. tunnel project, although trains are running through it, isn't finished yet. They still have to connect it to the Queens IND. As for the 2nd Ave. Subway, our children probably won't live long enough to ride it!
"The cost would be too prohibitive."
How much will it cost to build a full four track tunnel for the B, D, N and Q lines from Manhattan to Brooklyn?
N Broadway Line
I'd settle for just a tunnel for 6th Ave. trains. The B'way tracks could be moved to the center of the bridge, thereby removing the main reason the bridge is falling apart.
I'd settle for just a tunnel for 6th Ave. trains. The B'way tracks could be moved to the center of the bridge, thereby removing the main reason the bridge is falling apart.
Any tunnel is better than none, but that's what I think we're going to see is "none"!
You would be more likely to get something if the MTA proposed a downtown version of the 63rd St. tunnel -- two tracks for the subway, and two tracks for a future LIRR connection from Atlantic Ave. to lower Manhattan.
That way, you would at least get some political backing from people and politicians in Nassau and Suffolk who wouldn't give a damn about a four track subway tunnel to serve south Brooklyn.
A two track line, with Sixth Ave. and Broadway connections for the D/N/Q and a Rutgers link for the B to share track with the F would have close to the capacity that's available if all four bridge tracks were opened.
Perhaps if their precious LIRR were held hostage, those politicians would come around. I'm etting sick and tired of suburbanites who think that the city doesn't exist, and doesn't deserve a fair share of the MTA budget.
BMT Lines,
I think the K using the Chrystie connection is a good idea, except, the running time on the Z is 8 minutes. How can passengers be convince to use this new line if the running time is almost 3 times less often than the F? Is there an alternative way to make this service more attractive by cutting it back to Broadway Eastern Parkway? For instance, it will used the center track in the peak direction and run every 4 minutes.
N Broadway Line
Would either the K or F run express from 179th to Continental Ave., and the other one remain as a local? That would decrease service at the local stops between 179th and Continental. We had a problem with that when the Archer Ave. extension first opened. The E would stay on the express track until it branched off and the F ran express to 179th. They gave us the R as a local to 179th. The service was terrible. I can remember waiting up to 20 minutes at Union Tpke. to get an R one stop to Van Wyke. Some days it was faster to walk to Briarwood from Union Tpke, even though the distance was 4 times as far.
The Briarwood Community Orginization and severl other local groups protested and we got F service restored. Prior to the Archer Ave connection, the F ran express and the E ran local between Contintal Ave and 179th at all times and we had no problems. I am worried about repeating history if F services is cut back and a different train becomes the local train.
Why is everyone talking about the closing of the Manny B? The connection to the F will also never happen. Who is going to pay for it? There are high priorities such as the 2nd Ave Line, extending the train past Jamaica Center. All those who wish to see the Manny B colapse, just watch Channel 2 of Sunday Night 9PM in the Movie AfterShock. That is the closest you will get to see the Manny B fall into the East iver in our life time.
It doesn't have to collapse for someone to step in in the near future and ban all rail traffic. The point was some type of catastrophic failure would be the only way to grab the public's attention enough to get a replacement tunnel built quickly.
"I can remember waiting up to 20 minutes at Union Tpke. to get an R
one stop to Van Wyke."
Why did the R line take so long? Was it because of the G, which terminated at 71st Street, or delays? And, couldn't they (MTA) send both lines to 179th Street during rush hours - middays G to Court Square?
N Broadway Line
The R was never run as frequently as the F when it went to 179. Hopefully, when the 63rd St connector opens, the F can run express from 179 and the local can be serviced by the R and whatever new line they come up with.
I have a feeling it will be the Q Express Mon-Sat 179th thru either Bdwy or 6th Ave, and the F Will be a complete Local from Coney Island to 179th St(Q will use 63rd St)
That would require the F to crossover after Queens Plaza, which would delay the R if both arrived in the station at the same time.
The Q (or the V or whatever) will likely run local via 63rd St., with the F as express in Queens, and on Sixth Ave. the Q/V will run express, and the F will be the local.
It's silly, but that will cause the fewest delays.
where will the tracks from the 63rd St Tunnel connect to the Queens line? If the tracks connect Express, Then Q could use it, If local, the Q will use 60 St, and the F 63rd St.
They connect to the LOCAL tracks east of Queens Plaza (BEFORE Queens Plaza when heading into Manhattan) after the 36 St. station.
But why not other way round, more or less? Q uses 63rd St and F continues to use 53rd St. Why bring 60th St into it?
The QB remains a Express on its entire route if it uses Bdwy, thru the 60th St Tunnel, The F a local all the way thru 63rd St. Remember we are always projecting. The N Terminates at 57th St, The QT goes thru 60th St to Forest Hills. The R goes to Astoria 24/7
So on Queens Line Express E & QB Local F & QT Mon-Sat Express E & F Local G & QT Nts Sundays Holidays
The 63rd. St. tracks will connect to BOTH express and local tracks just to the south of 36th St.
You are right. As you head East, the 63rd St. track ramps up between the local and express tracks and terminates at a switch at which the train must move either left or right, toward the express or local track. Going West, the set up is the same, except the traffic merges onto the 63rd St. track from the local and express tracks instead of splitting off.
I noticed today that the switches to both of the new tracks have been installed, and the skeletonized track going down the ramps towards 21 St. are coming along nicely I can already imagine service running through it.
BTW, does the MTA have enough subway cars in it's present fleet to accomodate a new (or extended) 63rd. St. line, or will it's opening have to wait till the R143s arrive in numbers?
Do the layups tracks and switches between Queens Plaza ans 36 Street still exist. 2 more additional tracks? hmmm. They must of done something to fit them in. Maybe dug a wider tunnel?
The tunnel was widened on the Manhattan-bound side, and that local track was shifted over. The access ramp for the Manhattan-bound 63rd St. track was dug out in the area vacated by the local track.
In contrast, the Archer Ave. connection was put in when the Queens line was originally built. If I'm not mistaken, this is the only IND Second System provision which was ever put into use.
How about the Queens (nothbound tracks)?
"In contrast, the Archer Ave. connection was put in when the Queens line was originally built. If I'm not mistaken, this is the
only IND Second System provision which was ever put into use."
As a matter of fact, The local tracks swing over to make room for the tracks going to Archer Avenue. Therefore, this was not the original setup when the line was built back in the early 30's.
N Broadway Line
Actually, it was. The ramps that are now used by the E train were intended to be used for the never built Van Wyck Blvd spur. They were built at the same time as the rest of the line, in the 30's. Check out the Queens section of the Second System page on this website. In fact, I suggest you read it all. It took me at least a dozen reads to fully imagine what the system would look like had it all been built.
I picked up a copy of that collection of 12 maps a year ago which is mentioned in the IND Second System section on this website. The 1929 wish list map is really something. A few items were omitted, such as the extension from Bedford-Nostrand which would have continued along Lafayette Ave., turning northward at Stanhope St. and meeting the Myrtle-Central Ave. line, along with the linkup from Court St. to the Chambers St. dead end tracks.
If you're referring to the IND Chambers St. dead end tracks, those were supposed to be connected to the Worth St. tunnel and link up with the other IND lines at S4 Street. At least thats what the Second System page on this site lays out.
"If you're referring to the IND Chambers St. dead end tracks, those were supposed to be connected to the Worth St. tunnel and link
up with the other IND lines at S4 Street."
How could it be hook up to Worth Street Chris when Worth Street is north from that station? Wouldn't that mean it reversing in the opposite direction?
I think the idea with the Worth St. tunnel would have been to abandon the WTC stub and turn the local tracks east once they leave Canal St. (This would've meant the line only skirted major office centers, if it ran down Eighth Avenue and then turned toward Brooklyn before getting to City Hall, which is probably why it's never been revived since. Maybe major development was expected along Worth St. before the Depression; that can never happen now, because of the Tribeca Historic Districts and residential re-zoning. So I don't want to see this line on anybody's fantasy maps, you hear?)
I wasn't sure. The only thing that makes sense was to branch off directly south of the Canal St. station. The East Bway stop on the F was built to accomodate this plan. Either the local tracks were to split, 1 set going to the WTC stub and the other to the Worth St. tunnel, or the WTC terminal would be eliminated and all 8th Ave. local trains would go to S4 via Worth. All I know was that the plans called for a connection somewhere.
"I wasn't sure. The only thing that makes sense was to branch off directly south of the Canal St. station. The East Bway stop
on the F was built to accomodate this plan. Either the local tracks were to split, 1 set going to the WTC stub and the other to
the Worth St. tunnel, or the WTC terminal would be eliminated and all 8th Ave. local trains would go to S4 via Worth. All I
know was that the plans called for a connection somewhere."
The C or E turning off the main route would have made these two lines useless. But anything coming out of brooklyn to World Trade Center will be a big improvement. Only one problem is the new running time on the E. It (E) will have to negotiate between the new line (via Worth Street) and the C. The solution will be to make the World Trade Center wider (maybe four tracks instead of two) which will not affect the running time on the C and E.
N Broadway Line
There are provisions in the tunnel south of Canal St. for such a hookup.
The 57th St./6 Av. station is another. The only difference was that the original plan had the line turning north of 57th St along 61st. to merge with the never built 2nd Ave. line and become the "Super Express" portion of this six track line.
Also, if I'm not mistaken, the Chrystie St. connection was also another Second System plan, which got modified. I believe the Grand St. station was designed to feed into the 2nd Ave. line, and not the 6th Ave. line, as it was later configured.
It can feed into it tiday. If the wall is removed there will be 2 trackways.
Your right about that. Chrystie Street was constructed to be converted into a four track two island platform station with the through 2 Avenue tracks using the outer tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always thought the connection to the Sixth Ave express from Grand was a modification of the original idea. The 6th Ave express was supposed to feed the Utica and the Myrtle/Central/Rockaway lines via the never built Houston St. tunnel and the S4 St. complex. Grand St. was meant to be the first stop on the Second Ave express.
But I could be interpreting the plans laid out in the 2nd. System page on this website incorrectly.
"The 57th St./6 Av. station is another. The only difference was that the original plan had the line turning north of 57th St along
61st. to merge with the never built 2nd Ave. line and become the "Super Express" portion of this six track line."
A crosstown 77/79th Street line from 57th Street (6/7th Avs) would have been much better. It would have reduce some of the over crowding on the Lexington Avenue line without thinking about the Second Avenue route as an immediate solution.
N Broadway Line
The problem with that was Central Park. They had to tear up a playground area near 59th St. to do tunner work between Sixth and Seventh Aves and Fifth Ave. and 63rd, and the NIMBYs were in full hue and cry. And theses were very, very rich NIMBYs who could (and did) get their story onto Page 1 metro of the New York Times.
The MTA had tp promise to replace absolutely everything the way it was, or improve the facilities for the kids just to cut through the southeastern edge of the park. running a line a mile through the park would have caused a major court battle against people who had enough money to kill the entire project.
In addition to the wealth of its neighbors, Central Park is now protected by city and Federal landmark designation. Trying to dig in it again is pretty much unthinkable from a legal point of view.
I'm a little hurt by your characterizing opposition to construction in the Park as NIMBYism from Fifth Avenue. Hundreds of thousands of people come there every week; office workers, baseball leagues, bicyclists, shoppers, and tourists all have a stake in the park's preservation. There are concrete vents all over the southwest corner of Prospect Park from that ridiculous shortcut the F express tracks take there; we don't need any more of those in Central Park.
My point was the hundreds of thousands of people from outer areas who use the park couldn't have gotten a Page 1 metro coverage in the Times the way the people who live around the park, with more money and influence, were able to obtain.
If the MTA tried to run, say, a connection through Prospect Park to link the Brighton line up with the Culver if the Manhattan Bridge eventually goes out, the above-ground disruption that would be required for several years might generate protests, but would get far less media coverage.
If transit needs dictate that a new line is necessary, you'll learn to live with it. I am really getting sick and tired of people scuttling building projects badly needed by other areas of the city simply because it will cause a few minor inconvienences during construction.
"If transit needs dictate that a new line is necessary, you'll learn to live with it. I am really getting sick and tired of people
scuttling building projects badly needed by other areas of the city simply because it will cause a few minor inconvienences
during construction."
This time I agree with you. 77/79th Street would've been a better solution to the overcrowding crisis on the Lexington Avenue Lines.
N Broadway Line
Not wanting to get too riled up about a purely hypothetical project, I'll just say this: there are a dozen north-south avenues in Manhattan that don't pass through Central Park, eight of which don't yet have subway lines underneath them. The choice, if we ever had to make it, would be between digging in the Park and digging someplace else, not between a Park route and nothing. We may imagine that excavating in the Park is easier and more practical than excavating a street--no buildings to shore up--but the Park is really as artificial a landscape as the city around it, and it has the same web of utilities beneath it (as well as an even more complicated drainage and sewer system); the complicated topography of boulders and lakes would be expensive to uproot and even more expensive to put back together, compared to an asphalt street. And even if we assume no private groups will sue, the paperwork requirements of intervening on this scale in a city landmark shared by five community boards pose a formidable legal expense.
That said, a street route already seems more attractive. At that point, we can throw in cost-benefit factors both of temporary disruption (i.e., about ten years, plus however long it takes for the trees and grass to recover) to a mile-long chunk of the Park, and of the permanent traces that would be left in the landscape. The 63rd St. line isn't in the Park for long, and I think it only has one vent (near 59th St.), but a longer line will have to leave big grated hunks of concrete scattered in the grass, or a fan plant.
These objections may not move anyone who doesn't consider Central Park a work of art, but it is one: it took thousands of men and tons of dynamite twenty years to turn eight hundred acres of swamps and thorn bushes into the fragile, romanticized landscape we have today. It's not only the founding textbook of landscape architecture, it's the escape valve for everyone who works or lives nearby, and one of our biggest attractions for tourists from all over the world; and I simply don't see why we should mess around with it when there are other options available.
So my response to the particular suggestion of a 79th St. crosstown-and-south line would be to turn it down, say, Madison Avenue and then plug it into the 63 St. tracks leading to Broadway. But I'm not sure why a train stopping at 86th St/2 Av, 79th st/Lex Av, and 57th/7th is that much better than one via 86/2, 72/2, and 63rd St/Lex to 57th/7th, aside from the one less stop. It would be nice if there was a transfer to the IRT, but the MTA is planning one at 125th, and IRT passengers already can get to the west side lines via 59 and 51 Sts.
I wasnt really referring to this proposed project, but community opposition to subway construction in general. The proposed Jamaica Super Express that was originally supposed to connect with the 63rd. St. tubes and then run along the Montaulk LIRR comes to mind. This line would have had immesurable benefits to passangers who now use overcrowded E and F trains to get into Manhattan. But, a few Glendale and Ridgewood residents scuttled the plan simply because they didn't want the trains passing through their neighborhoods.
Someone needs to stand up to these people and say "The city needs this project. Your concerns are not enough to justify killing it. Sit down and shut up. If you don't like trains in your neighborhood, simply move".
Right! This is just like Maryland's Central Light Rail Line which Gov. Schaefer rammed thru the northern Baltimore suburbs, without much input from residents. Because of opposition, there are no stops on the line from Falls Rd. (just outside the city line) to Lutherville some two miles north. The trolley is also single-tracked for much of this stretch (and in other places), limiting capacity and causing delays. Residents of Ruxton and Riderwood would not allow stations in their upscale areas, fearing the road would be a "conduit for crime". Now, they're screaming for service! Go figure...
Weren t the tracks there before the homes. Yes Right, when they moved they knew there was train service in the area. either 1 train a day or 60 trains a hour too bad. I had family in Brooklyn who livs right next door to the El, and even when I visit, it gets to that you can t hear it. Right all you guys who have family in Coney Island at Brightwater Apts on W 5th and Surf Ave
The trolley is also single-tracked for much of this stretch (and in other places), limiting capacity and causing delays.
It was a $$$$ issue. I think the line was built to eventually be double-tracked.
--Mark
This is not a new problem, the reason there is a lower roadway on the George Washington bridge is because it was supposed to carry an extension of the IND subway line over into New Jersey. Supposedly, New Jersey did not want a subway connection to New York. More likely it was the lack of money to build the line!
Jan Eyerman
The George Washington Bridge was not built with two levels, only one. The lower roadway was added in the 1960's around the time "The Apartments" were built. If they had planned on extending the subway to New Jerse when the bridge was built in 1931 I think they would have made the lower roadway then.
The bridge was constructed with provisions for a second level to be added for the purpose of carrying "light rail transit" (I'm quoting Henry Petroski here) at a later time. Instead, the consultant's study in the 1950s recommended the construction of the second deck as a dedicated vehicular level, and it was opened as such in August 1962. The same study also recommended the construction of another Hudson River crossing to be located at 125th Street "in the future".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess that additional 125th Street crossing will be very much in the future, since I have never heard about it.
I would assume so! If you look at the logic of it, though, that location is 55 blocks south of the GWB and 80 blocks north of the Lincoln Tunnel, so it would be a good spot, at least on the NYC side of the river. I'm not familiar enough with the topography on the NJ side of the river at that point to know how difficult it would be to anchor and connect a bridge on that end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They could always bring back the 125th St Ferry
... and the proposed 125th St - crosstown subway line to meet it that Mayor Hylan had in his plans of 1920 ....
--Mark
I sometimes wonder why we don't do more in the way of dual mode roll on, roll off stuff with ferries. Modern ferries move at 40 knots, and if the ferries outnumbered the trains, you could have one waiting each time a train rolled in; it would be almost as fast as driving the train through a tunnel, faster actually compared to current service on the pokeyer lines.
The crossing would have come into New Jersey on the bluff where the old Pallisades Amusement Park was located, while connecting to Manhattan at Harlem Valley. A bridge would have to have a long ramp on the New York side coming down onto 125th (the N.J. side would be similar to the GW, with the land coming up to meet the bridge). A tunnel would be the opposite -- easy to dig down on the New York side, but a long ramp up to get atop the Pallisades in New Jersey.
Of course, by now the area is so built up NIMBY protests would be tougher to deal with than the construction hassles.
Does anybody know how the Upper Manhattan (125th) Expressway would have been constructed, and what it's path would be. I know the exact route of the Mid-Manhattan and Lower Manhattan Expressway, had they been built.
This is Cross Bay Boulevard
The next stop on this C train will be Lefferts Boulevard.
Wasn't the plan to literally build it above 125 St. all the way, on an elevated structure? I have read that the Manhattan end of the Triboro Bridge has some girders that were intended to form the beginning of this structure. There is no way in hell that such a thing could be built today, of course - and probably just as well.
I've heard that about the Triboro too, on a Transit Museum tour a couple of years ago. They pointed out the girders to us. Whether or not the story is accurate is another matter, but in this particular case I would trust the source - Joe Cunningham.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Given that Bob Moses wanted to put an expressway over Canal St. to link the Manny B and the Holland Tunnel and over 30th St. to link the Queens Midtown and Lincoln tunnels, an expressway over 125th to link the Triborough with a fourth New Jersey crossing would fit in perfectly with the man's thinking.
Both of those ideas would have been great.
"Given that Bob Moses wanted to put an expressway over Canal St. to link the Manny B and the Holland Tunnel and over 30th St. to link the Queens Midtown and Lincoln tunnels, an expressway over 125th to link the Triborough with a fourth New Jersey crossing would fit in perfectly with the man's thinking."
Neither freeway would go over the aforementioned thoroughfares.
The Lower Manhattan Expressway would start at the West Side Highway and travel on the north side of Canal Street before curving north to meet the entrance to the Holland Tunnel, it would then briefly travel near Watts Street before taking a position between Spring and Broome Streets through the then derelict Castiron District. At the Bowery, it would split into two distinct four lane roadways, one would travel on the east side of the Bowery to the Manhattan Bridge and another, the main connection, would drop into an open cut in Delancey Street before connecting to the Williamsburg Bridge.
The Middle Manhattan Expressway would begin also at the West Side Highway and promptly descend into the center of a widened Thirtieth Street, where it would remain before moving to the north for a connection to the Lincoln Tunnel. From there, now travelling between Thirtieth and Thirty-first Streets, the freeway would begin to rise, crossing under Ninth Avenue while crossing over Eighth. From there, the freeway would cross Thirtieth Street again. Beyond that, the freeway would be constructed with heavy supports, designed to allow skyscrapers to rise from below and go around the roadway, with the median sufficiently wide to contain the neccessary elevators and stairways. Exits would be provided at Fifth and Seventh Avenues, then bidirectional. Connection would be provided directly to extended ramps to the Queens-Midtown tunnel which would be placed on a grade not at level the streets. The Freeway would proceed to end at the FDR Drive.
The Lower Manhattan Expressway would be designated as Interstate 78, along with the Holland Tunnel and the Williamsburg Bridge. The Manhattan Bridge spur would be designated Interstate 478 along with the Manhattan Bridge
The Middle Manhattan Expressway would be designated Interstate 495 along with the Lincoln and Queens-Midtown Tunnels.
I believe these projects would have caused more benefit than detriment, especially with the construction of a Bushwick Expressway (I-78) in conjuction with the Lower Manhattan.
Umm...I think an exit ramp at Fifth Ave. Seventh Ave. and 30th Sts. would have tuned both those places into traffic/pedestian nightmares (picture a Lincoln-tunnel like backup headed down Fifth in one direction and up Madison and across 31 to the on ramp in the other. Scary)
Canal Street traffic wouldn't seem to be able to be any worse than it already is, but a new highway is like "Field of Dreams" -- If you build it, they (the cars, trucks and buses) will come -- and there would be more overall vehicular use of the expressway, while other drivers attempted to use Canal as a "Shortcut"
Plus, the interchange for the Manny B and Willie B would have to be either a bi-level or tri-level affair in order to provide free-flowing traffic patterns. That would have created a concrete wall in at least that one area (between Broadway and the Bowery) to the current northward expansion of Chinatown. A buried roadway to the west could be covered over to make it less obtrusive, decrease emissions into the surrounding area (and boost property values), but that would have required major reconstruction/relocation of several subway lines through the area.
Or we could have had the worst of both worlds like Boston is currently experiencing with their I-93 project -- an elevated I-478 built by Moses in the 60s, becomes obsolite and has to be replaced by a multi-billion dollar "Big Dig" project less than 30 years later that would screw up north-south subway service for years...
..And then after it's all done, the Manny B falls down, of course.
Or we could have had the worst of both worlds like Boston is currently experiencing with their I-93 project -- an elevated I-478
built by Moses in the 60s, becomes obsolite and has to be replaced by a multi-billion dollar "Big Dig" project less than 30 years
later that would screw up north-south subway service for years...
Although, just to give it its due, remember that after major political pressure by urban planners & railfans, the Big Dig now includes at least the underpinnings of a tunnel to connect Boston's South Station and North Station. It will still have to be tunneled out, but I believe the support walls are there under the lowest roadway level -- so that perhaps by the end of the youngest current SubTalker's lifetime, we might have through service from NYC into downtown Boston and then onto Portland, Maine.
Not to mention that downtown Boston will be an immeasurably nicer place with the JFK down. SF faced a very similar issue after the 1989 quake, but they simply tore down the Embarcadero Freeway (which was never connected up to the Golden Gate anyway) and built a new streetcar line along the waterfront to connect to both their new baseball stadium and the CalTrain station. Smart, huh?
In 1989, San Francisco decided to not rebuild a freeway downed by a quake. In New York in 1973, no earthquake was neccessary to down a highway, and they didn't even replace it with the tunnel they promised.
"Canal Street traffic wouldn't seem to be able to be any worse than it already is, but a new highway is like 'Field of Dreams' -- If you build it, they (the cars, trucks and buses) will come -- and there would be more overall vehicular use of the expressway, while other drivers attempted to use Canal as a 'Shortcut'"
Where would they come from? So they would stop using the Verrazanno alternative which would free up capacity there. Or the new cars would come from new economic developement spurred by the highway, which of course kills birds and as such must be shunned.
Eugenius: Thx for a detailed summary. Just to add to it, I believe that the one built remnant of this plan is the roughly north/South Midtown Tunnel access ramp that runs between 9th/10th Avenues starting just past the Post Office building in the low W 30s. It has a name, which I've forgotten. I've also forgotten why this piece actually got built.
In hindsight, Moses was trying to solve a problem -- capacity for cars -- in a way that tended to destroy the places with the problem. These discussions can turn into religious wars pretty quickly, and "Power Broker," while comprehensive and definitive, is somewhat a product of its time (the Seventies). I think we're better off now looking at TRANSPORTATION needs rather than freeway needs and train needs. Park-and-ride is the best example. To me, auto advocates (AAA etc.) and rail-transit advocates (us & others) should be working together to improve mobility.
A few years ago, I recall the local AAA very cautiously issuing a statement that said, in essence, "Yes, perhaps increased funding for rail might be a good thing because it could reduce traffic growth on the roads we love to use so much and thus we could drive more easily." They got hell from the more conservative AAA establishment, IIRC, but it was a start.
According to the MTA site, 3/5 of automobile users surveyed believe that money should be spent on trains rather than cars. May of course be a self-serving survey . . .
Much of the problem now seems to me that we have a ways to go before mass transit in the City becomes as comfortable as a car ride. In spite of the delays, in many cases it's still faster, cheaper, and more comfortable to drive. We should be turning our mass transportation system into a regional asset, but instead transporation is considered a liability by local businesses.
The sad thing is that we have most of the infrastructure we need to give people a comfortable, economical, high speed park and ride trip--politics, unions, and conservative management all stand in the way. Perfect example: $1.5 billion dollars for a train to nowhere, a boondoggle which no one will use, when for a few hundred million dollars more we could have frequent automated 20-30 minute service from JFK to Penn, GCT, and the World Trade Center, a quick cab ride from the major business centers. Check in on board the train, to let you get to the airport later--from a businessman's perspective, it would make the City's airports more than competitive with those in *any* locality, and given the number of flights a major asset.
Damn it, most of the infrastructure is already there or being built! We just aren't using it.
I posted recently how it's much faster to drive than to take mass transit. The only thing in the way of that is the exorbitant parking rate. Some time ago, the city figured that a nice way to lower traffic congestion in the city would be to raise parking rates through various means. It didn't work. I think that a good start to more efficient transport is to construct large parking garages at key subway stations to eliminate the worst leg of the trip: The bus.
BUS: 20 Km/h (I might as well ride my bike)
Q TRAIN: Under 15 minutes from Atlantic to Kings
3 or 2 train: Just over 15 from Chambers to Atlantic
Total time wasted waiting: over 10 minutes (almost the time on the whole Q)
Automobile: Approximately 50 km/h, full distance
Time wasted waiting: ZERO MINUTES
Route is more direct
Total time saved via automobile: OVER THIRTY MINUTES!
Just killing the bus in favor of the car saves 10, not couting the wait.
I don't know how much faster it would be with a Cross-Brooklyn Expressway or even with a Flatbush Expressway.
[I posted recently how it's much faster to drive than to take mass transit. The only thing in the way of that is the exorbitant parking rate. Some time ago, the city figured that a nice way to lower traffic congestion in the city would be to raise parking rates through various means. It didn't work. I think that a good start to more efficient transport is to construct large parking garages at key subway stations to eliminate the worst leg of the trip: The bus.
BUS: 20 Km/h (I might as well ride my bike)
Q TRAIN: Under 15 minutes from Atlantic to Kings
3 or 2 train: Just over 15 from Chambers to Atlantic
Total time wasted waiting: over 10 minutes (almost the time on the whole Q)
Automobile: Approximately 50 km/h, full distance
Time wasted waiting: ZERO MINUTES
Route is more direct
Total time saved via automobile: OVER THIRTY MINUTES!
Just killing the bus in favor of the car saves 10, not couting the wait.
I don't know how much faster it would be with a Cross-Brooklyn Expressway or even with a Flatbush Expressway.]
That's one of the reasons I favor superexpresses, using (at least initially) the commuter RR infrastructure.
I think you have to take these problems on a case by case basis. The first and worst problem is that the subway system has slowed down pathetically. Until the TA starts running trains again at full speed, it's almost meaningless to talk about other options.
Then there are other obvious ways to speed things up. Automation, of course, with reductions in headway and station crowding, larger platforms and trains where necessary, bigger doors, further increases in train speed--what's the advantages of trains when they only travel at 40? Skip stop service should be used on all outlying areas.
There are all sorts of interesting options that vary by location--degree of traffic, density, etc. Buses should be speeded up by reducing the number of stops to IRT standards--say one every seven blocks--and giving them three doors and loading platforms with turnstiles--the amount of time spent collecting fares is ridiculous. There are places where subways aren't dense, and in many of them it wouldn't be economical to build a two track tunnel at $350 million/mile--so why not substitute linked bus/superexpress service, and (in the case of two and three track lines) forgo the local stops on the subway line? The subway would serve as a high speed artery. There are also places where it makes a lot more sense to just run zoned express buses and forget about the subway, because they can provide faster service for less.
These are all low cost options, except for automation, which is actually a negative cost option since it pays for itself almost instantly. Many of the bus services need only be offered during peak hours.
Meanwhile, I see lots of money wasting stuff that makes no sense. Ten car trains carrying two people during off hours, that are paralleled by equally underutilized and infrequent bus routes.
I don't know exactly what your origin is--I assume it's in that terra incognita area of Brooklyn--but an automated, high speed zoned system could very likely take you from Kings to your destination in under 15 minutes, including waits and latency, with one change in Manhattan. We could do almost as well by upgrading what we have and skipping some unimportant stops.
wouldn t it have 40th rather then 30th since both tunnel entrances are at 40th St?
I doubt 125th is wide enough for a six lane highway, or is it. When I was there on Tuesday it was dark and after leaving the bus I went right down to the 2.
I am not sure if this was addressed of not (I am new to SubTalk) but when the 63rd Street Connection is completed:
E service will remain the same.
F service will operate ALL LOCAL 179/STL-F
R service will remain the same
Q service will operate as the Queens Blvd/6 Av/Brighton Express from 179/BBC
G service will remain the same (CSQ/4AV)
Since the Q will be the new Queens Blvd. route will Jamaica Yard need to be modified to handle new equipment (i.e.--R40 or R68/68A)? I tend to doubt it since Jamaica once maintained R40's and a couple of R-68's ran on the F some years back. The 68's were probably CI ones though.
I would think that the F would run express to 179th and the Q would run local to 179th. Currently the G is running local to Forest Hills, except for late nites. The Q will replace the local G service.
The F will stay express in Queens and the Q will go local to avoid having to have the F crossover to the local track at Queens Plaza and cause potential delays on the N line.
Either way you look at it, the R (not the N) will have a train cross in front of it. You cannot avoid it. Either the F will cross from D4 to D2 north of the Plaza OR the Q will merge onto the D2 south of 36th Street.
The last service plan I saw had the F via Queens Blvd Local (via 53rd Street), and the Q via Express 179 to 21 Street (obviously via 63rd Street). The G will be cut back to a permanent 24/7 terminal at Court Square. The E and R will not change.
Is the service plan located online?
Everything is speculation at this point. No service plan has been published. The only thing that's close to certain is that the G will be cut back to Court Square.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Will the Q Run 24/7? Also will there be a connection from the Bdwy Line. The F should run local, and make it a local all the way. Also if both the F and Q are going to Queens, who will use 63rd and who will use 53 St Tunnels. I guess the express will use 53rd and the local 63,
i want 2 know a little more about the q running in queens alongside the R train.
There is no definate plans as to the service that will be provided when the 63rd. St. connection opens in 2 years. Speculation about the Q being extended to Forest Hills or 179th St. has been bantered about over the past few months, but it's not definate that this will happen.
CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHERE I CAN FIND AN ARTICLE ABOUT THIS PLEASE E-MAIL IT 2 ME, I REALLY WANNA KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS.
"i want 2 know a little more about the q running in queens alongside the R train."
All I know, 4th Avenue Express, I don't like the fact:
1) two Broadway Lines are local in Queens (that's when the Q is return to Broadway) not giving people any real options.
2) the Q runing local in Queens, while in Manhattan, it will be express.
N Broadway Line
As stated before, the Queens Blvd. local train that runs through the 63rd. St. tunnel will almost without a doubt be a 6th Ave. train, whether it's the Q, B or something else. Broadway Q service via 63rd. St to Queens has not been seriousley discussed.
That makes sense, especially since the 6th Ave. tracks lead directly to the tunnel itself. Although there are scissor switches to the west of Lexington Ave., the Broadway tracks are supposed to lead to the 2nd Ave. line, if and when it ever gets built.
It makes more sense for the express to use 63rd St and the local to use 53rd St. It would speed things up to bypass Queens Plaza and 53-Lex.
Those are 2 of the most patronozed stations along that line. Plus, the local would cause a backup switching to the express tracks to access the 53rd. St. tubes.
It aint gonna happen.
It does mane more sense, but with the way the track layout is set up, it's only feasible if both the 63rd and 53rd St. trains operate as locals in Sixth Ave., because there are no track crossovers that way.
"It makes more sense for the express to use 63rd St and the local to use 53rd St. It would speed things up to bypass Queens Plaza and 53-Lex."
Is the Queens Plaza Station a really heavy used station, or, a heavy transfer station? What I notice, is that, it more of a heavy transfer station than a heavy used station. Please help me...
N Broadway Line
It's used heavly as a transfer for people from express trains to the R and G, and from G passangers coming in from Brooklyn, mostly Greenpoint. These passangers will be shifted to the Court Sq/Ely Ave connection when the G gets cut back.
There really isn't much in that area of Queens. In fact the 36th. St station probably has more fares collected at its turnstiles than does QPlaza.
11/19/99
One thing not discussed about this connection is when it will be totally finished. Maybe a year? If they plan 2002 the year on initiation of service,is that because that's when new equipment arrives to supplant this extra service
Bill Newkirk
I keep hearing 2001 as the target for service to start. Has it changed?
The trains would run even faster if they never stopped at all. Some would say that that would defeat their purpose. Do you really think it makes more sense for the express to stop at 21st St., Roosevelt Island, and 63rd and Lex?
It's only a 2 tack line, so unless they run skip stop, its going to be a local.
My point exactly. It's four stops from Roosevelt Ave. to Rockefeller Center regardless of which tunnel is used. It seems to me that it is better to provide the faster service on the more heavily traveled route.
Only 6th Av Local feeds directly into the 53rd St. track, so the F will continue to use that tunnel; and since that track becomes the express track at Queens Plaza, I assume they'll keep the F express in Queens to avoid switching in front of the R train, which enters QP on the local track.
There was a thread on this site that said the 53rd Street tunnel will close due to severe water damage.
Um, never, ever, ever would they close this tunnel. Perhaps after the 63rd. st connection opens up, there will be night/weekend service diversions so they can repair any damage.
WHY DONT THEY TAKE THE M AND RUN IT LOCAL VIA THE N LINE TO CONEY ISLAND FOR BETTER SERVICE BETWEEN PACIFIC AND 59 STREET BROOKLYN
WHY DON'T YOU TAKE YOUR CAPS LOCK AND RUN IT EXPRESS OUT OF TOWN
This is Newark-Penn Station, change for the 10
The next and last stop on this 8 train will be Newark International Airport.
He's probably too lazy to go get his reading glasses.
The Q more likely will be local to 71st Street replacing the G.
If they really want to save money, they could run the F via 63rd Street (leaving the E via 53rd Street) and eliminate the Q entirely (replacing it with the M). The D will once again be the brighton Beach Express.
We know the above is terrible service, however, it's the most simplest.
Comments welcome.
N Broadway Line
To N Broadway Line's suggestion:
While I agree that the Q is totally senseless as it duplicates the D from 47-50 to Brighton Beach. Brighton Line passengers no longer have the triplicate of choice they once did when 6th Ave, Bway, and Nassau St services ran there. I am in FULL agreement that the M should return to Brighton--it is pointless on 4th Avenue. BUT, Queens Blvd. needs another service to Manhattan to alleviate overcrowding. It makes little sense from an overcrowding standpoint to still have three Manhattan services (E, F and R) once the Connection is open. You need the fourth service and the Q is the most likely candidate.
Hopefully the Q will return to Broadway if and when the south side tracks of The Money Pit, aka Manhattan Bridge reopen.
Another idea, beside the Q running on Bdwy to 57th St Only, have a K Brighton-6th Ave-Queens Local run.
And reserve the H for Rockaway Park service via 6th Avenue.
N Broadway Line
If the Q remains on the express track on Sixth Ave. then the F has to run via 53rd, since the Q will only have access to the 63rd St. tunnel.
If they switch the Q to the local track past West Fourth (two express lines and two local lines on Sixth Ave. would make more sense), then either the Q or F could run on 53rd St., but the problem would remain that the most direct link to the Queens express track would be via the Sixth (and Eighth) Ave. local tracks.
I don't see that as a problem. The F will probably be more desireable to Queens riders than the Q (if it's still running the 6th Ave. line in 2001) because the F stops at 23rd. and 14th St., something the Q wouldn't do.
Yeah, it would be weird to have the 6th Ave. express run local in Queens, and the 6th. Ave. local run express, but ridership patterns would make this the ideal setup.
"Yeah, it would be weird to have the 6th Ave. express run local in Queens, and the 6th. Ave. local run express, but ridership
patterns would make this the ideal setup."
No longer will they have to run the F at a four minute heyway. So, the Q could be local along sixth Avenue. The only difference is Queens. The F will be express via the 53rd Street tunnel, while the Q will be local via the 63rd Street tunnel.
Being that the Q is one of the last letters of the alphabet, it just makes since for it to be local. In the case of Broadway, it should express because it comes before R.
Q Broadway Line
can someone fill me in on this information about the q running in queens.
"can someone fill me in on this information about the q running in queens."
As someone say earlier, the Q is really designated for the 2nd Avenue route (via Broadway). The tracks leads to a possible connection with the new second avenue line, however, this route is no where near finished. So, expect the Q to the be sent to Queens until the second avenue route is completed.
N Broadway Line
If the Q is routed via Broadway again, it will terminate at 57th/7th, until the 2nd Ave. spur gets built. The Queens-bound 63rd. St. train will always come off of 6th. Ave. line, whether it's today's Q, B or another line (V?).
can someone fill me in on this information about the q running in queens.
"can someone fill me in on this information about the q running in queens."
As someone say earlier, the Q is really designated for the 2nd Avenue route (via Broadway). The tracks leads to a possible connection with the new second avenue line, however, this route is no where near finished. So, expect the Q to the be sent to Queens until the second avenue route is completed.
N Broadway Line
If the Q is routed via Broadway again, it will terminate at 57th/7th, until the 2nd Ave. spur gets built. The Queens-bound 63rd. St. train will always come off of 6th. Ave. line, whether it's today's Q, B or another line (V?).
F service, even after the 63rd. st connection opens, is adequate for local service on 6th Ave. People are used to having the Q as an express, and the junction north of Rockefeller Center is the best place to merge trains, as a waiting Q wont cause delays for trains behind it, as it would if the trains had to switch over to the express tracks south of W4 St.
If the Q runs down 63rd Street, it will alread by an express like it is now. So just run the train as a local in Queens, then it can go express in Manhattan and Brooklyn. If they run it to 179th as a local, during rush hours only, then the F can go back to the express it once was from 179th.
Nobody from Jamaica and Briarwood will allow the F to go back as an express east of 71st. Ave. with only the Q as a local. Both Q and R trains will have to be extended to 179th St. for this plan to happen.
Has anybody thought that they Q may go back to Broadway?
"Has anybody thought that they Q may go back to Broadway?"
We will love to have our family member (Q) back on Broadway. However, with the Manhattan Bridge out, service in Astoria and Southern Broolyn will have to be cut back. Something passengers of my line wouldn't tolerate.
The M N and R all share the Montague tunnel which limits compacity on these lines.
N Broadway Line
"If they run it to 179th as a local, during rush hours only, then the F can go back to the express it once was from 179th."
So are they still going to use 71st Street Continental Avenue to terminate R trains? This will cause a problem with Q trains. Please explain why you suggest the above as an option?
N Broadway Line
No it will not, the trains turning at 71 use a lower level.
Eugenius,
Yes, I know that. But, what about the time it takes to clear the train before it switches to the tracks that leads to the lower level? That of course if they run the R to 71st and the Q to 179th Street.
N Broadway Line
It only takes about 30 seconds longer to terminate the train at 71st than to close it up an any other stop. Going in that direction, the train is usually almost empty by the time it gets to 71st. Most passangers get on at Roosevelt and get off somewhere in between. I don't believe that too many passengers get on at the local stops in the morning to go into Jamaica. Some do but not that many.
As for the Q and the R interchanging at 71st going towards Manhattan, I have seen both R and G trains pull in and leave in less than 30 seconds, so I don't see it causing a big delay. No worse than when the F sits at 75th Avenue waiting for an E to clear.
Also, I should point out they had this arrangement once before. When Archer Ave opended in 1988, the F stayed express and the R ran local to 179th. The G still terminated at 71st. The only reason it was changed is becuase those of us who used 169th St. Sutphin Blvd., Van Wyck Blvd., and 75th Avenue complained that we lost our direct express service (the E used to be the local, then went express after 71st), and the R ran very infrequently. Sometimes we had to wait 15 minutes for one to come along. When you are used to an E every four or five minutes, it is a major disruption in the service. They didn't change it becuause of problems with the G terminating at 7st and the R continuing.
Will the Q make the situation better than the R which suffered from delays earlier? And, is there enough passenger patronage to justify sending both the Q and R to 179th Street?
Thanks for your comments.
N Broadwy Line
Neither the Q or R are adequate by themsleves in providing local service east of Continental Ave. Only sending both will the residents of the affected communities be satisfied with the loss of F express service. Remember, they used the R and the R only as the local from 88-90 (24/7) and 90-92 (rush hours) and the residents along Hillside Ave made a lot of noise.
The N and R was running on Bway 24/7????????
3TM
No, the R ran to 179th St. 24 hours a day/7 days a week.
The biggest problem with the R was the lack of service. If the R had a similar headway to the F, (or the E prior to Archer Ave.) we could have lived with it. Waiting up to fifteen minutes during the mornign and evening rush was intolerable.
I've heard this "waiting for 15 minutes for an R train" from Jamaica IND riders for years, and it's totally bogus. Why does everyone seem to exaggerate their delays on a subway? Unless a train had to be taken out of service, or some other calamity, there is no way a Hillside Ave. local rider can claim that he/she had to wait 15 minutes all the time for an R train. Rush hour R trains ran at least every 5-7 minutes, and it was supplemented by E service in the AM.
However, this might still be inadequate. R service plus the new 63rd. St. line should be more than adequate for their needs.
If they would ever get the Manhattan Bridge back up an running normally so the N could return to Broadway express service, that would allow the MTA to increase the number of R locals during rush hour, since it would only share tunnel trackage with one other line, not two, in the Montague Street tunnel.
That would allow the MTA to cut the times between trains on the Queens local section (assuming the 60th St. N/R tunnel can handle the same number of trains per hour as the 53rd St. E/F does).
Of course, some people would still grumble because their station was served by a local instead of an express. Then you're into the same territory as the Carroll Gardens situation in Brooklyn, and it would depend on how well the top officials can handle the pressure.
Actually, that could be done now. Many many months ago I suggested in here that the TA double the number of R trains that run during a typical weekday. Instead of 10 minute headways during the midday hours, run them at 5 minute headways, terminating alternate R trains at Whitehall St. Cut back the G to Court Sq 24/7 right now (don't wait for the 63rd. St. connection to open). You'd double the amount of Manhattan bound local service in Queens and you'd increase service on the Broadway line by 33% (at least north of Whitehall). This would provide the Bway BMT with the same number of trains that serve the 6th Ave. express:
6th Ave exp:
18 trains per hour:
6 B
6 D
6 Q
Bway Local:
18 trains per hour:
12 R (6 to Whitehall only, 6 to Bay Ridge)
6 N
I'm sure the Bway local has the capacity for this extra service.
During the rush hours, increase R service to a 3 minute headway, with alternate R trains terminating at Whitehall. This would maintain the 6 minute headway the R currently runs on in Brooklyn during the rush. To ease congestion a bit, increase the headway on the M from 8.5 minutes to 10 minutes. I have yet to ride on a Manhattan bound M coming in from Bay Pkway which could be considered "crowded". 10 minute headways on this line is adequate.
Makes sense to me. Is it feasible?
Actually, the N train, if any service were to be increase on the Bway line, needs it first.
From Queens? No way. The R train carries more passangers. The plan I layed out doesn't increase service on either line in Brooklyn.
"From Queens? No way. The R train carries more passangers. The plan I layed out doesn't increase service on either line in
Brooklyn."
YOU GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT IS SO CROWDED ON THE N LINE THAT YOU ARE PHYSICALLY LEADING ON PEOPLE!!!!!! RIDE IT CHRISR, IT'S A REAL TROUBLE EXPERIENCE!!!!!! ON THE OTHER HAND, THE R IS SO UNDERUSED THAT YOUR SUGGESTION OF INCREASING SERVICE IS TOTALLY BOGUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
N Broadway Line
So crowded
So slow
To much delays
And very smelly
The N doesn't carry as many passangers as the R. Why do people continually exaggerate their own transit problems, while ridiculing other people's problems?
[The N doesn't carry as many passangers as the R. Why do people continually exaggerate their own transit problems, while ridiculing other people's problems?]
I think you've answered your own question!
On this website there's a report about each line and how they are affected by crowds. The E/F are on the top, while the N and 7 are very close behind. Meanwhile, the R is rated as underused. That statistic did not come from me, but the people who did the report.
What they don't mention is two main reason why that line is underused.
1) People have two alternatives: G into the E/F lines
2) you have to say, the route that the R travels from Queens Plaza is really slow. Before connecting to the N, it goes around 4 turns (who ever built this line made it zig zag too many times), another at before and after 5th Avenue.
Some times I get so feedup with the crowded situation on the N line that I take the R to Broadway and a bus. And a lot of times, they is plenty of standing room. In some cases, they are seats left if someone want to sit down. As for the N, it will have to be going in the reverse direction (against the work traffic) before you're able to get a decent seat. And, I'm not talking about 6AM - 12AM. For instance, in the early mornings (around 3AM) you can get a seat out of Astoria. However, don't even think about getting a seat at the same time going towards Astoria! Yes 3 AM! It happens all the time. And in some cases, the train is so crowded that you have to push your way in.
The Brooklyn N riders don't have the same problems. We do! That is why I'm writing the MTA again. Telling them to run extra N trains at least to 14th Street. That is where the train starts to get empty.
By the time it gets to the dekalb station it is practically empty. So, extra service in that area will defeat the purpose.
N Broadway Line
How arout running a N to City Hall or White Hall Street from Astoria during Rush Hours
It might result in a train shortage problem Brighton Express as already being claimed.
N Broadway Line
There aren't enough people in the limited areas served by the Astoria Line to justify more trains, even though more trains are needed to provide good service.
If you want better Astoria Line service, how about getting out there to take on the NIMBYs who are against extending the Astoria Line past Ditmars up to LaGuardia Airport?
If the N were extended to the airport, you'd have Astoria and airport riders together, justifying 4-6 more trains per hour off peak and on. And, as the city's "front-door" service, the N would get the best trains, the best maintenence the most extensive police, everything the best.
When a public hearing was held, not only did people show up to demand that the N not be extended beyond Ditmars, they wanted to get rid of the el they already have. City can't afford a subway? Fine -- get rid of the el anyway!
The next meeting should be held on Jamaica Avenue.
LOL! Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Again, why do we humor these community activists? If a project is needed as badly as a this one is, just build the damn thing. Even though I despise what Robert Moses did, he simply stole the land he needed in Bay Ridge to build the approahes to the Verrazano Bridge. There must be some middle ground where the community has some of its concerns addressed, but it's not given the power to torpedo a project that the city as a whole needs.
(Why do we humor these political activists)
What do you mean WE. When it comes to public works with long term benefits, there is no we. It just doesn't sell to the small number of people who really count in this town.
Besides, people have gotten the idea that if they hold things up they'll get paid. But we can't afford to pay them all, so nothing gets done. How much do we need to pay Peter Vallone to get this thing built?
This is why I am a strong supporter of term limits. Vallone will soon be out of power, and Astoria won't have a disproportionate amount of representation in the City Council.
Every few years, everybody starts from scratch.
What a concept ...
[This is why I am a strong supporter of term limits. Vallone will soon be out of power, and Astoria won't have a disproportionate amount of representation in the City Council.
Every few years, everybody starts from scratch.
What a concept ... ]
Unfortunately, term limits have the opposite effect in the more accountable offices (e.g., the offices where people actually lose re-election bids), because they kick out the good officials along with the bad. If one gives the voters *any* credit for being able to make a reasonable choice, then the average term of a bad official will be shorter than the average term of a good official, and that makes it mathematically inevitable that term limits will *decrease* the ratio of good to bad officials. Then too, rather than hurting professional pols, they increase the expense of the sleazy behind-the-sceners at the expense of the guys who are in the public eye.
Term limits are good. Judging by you're other postings, you seem to be a Giuliani fan, but Giuliani has done nothing useful since 1996. Even if someone is pretty good on the job, you need to rotate them out to get new ideas and attention to new problems. Like transportation -- Rudy just doesn't get it.
"....but Giuliani has done nothing useful since 1996"
Probably because of term limits. If Giuliani had the opportunity to run for another term, I'm sure that he would want to do the same things he did last term. Now he's not going to be mayor for another term whether he likes it or not, so he can do all the crap that he wants, nothing will change.
[Term limits are good. Judging by you're other postings, you seem to be a Giuliani fan, but Giuliani has done nothing useful since 1996. Even if someone is pretty good on the job, you need to rotate them out to get new ideas and attention to new problems. Like transportation -- Rudy just doesn't get it.]
If the voters don't want him, they can always choose to get rid of him. I'm not aware of any law that says that politicians go bad after a certain period of time, though I've certainly seen it happen, or that getting rid of someone who's done a lot will insure that the next guy will do a good job too; on the contrary, getting rid of someone who's above average is a pretty fair way of reducing the quality of government. And I'm afraid that Giuliani's successor will be a well meaning duffer, or worse.
Giuliani is just about the only mayor I remember who, like it or not, has made vast improvements in the City. I'd gladly put up with his weaknesses for a few more years. We should be getting rid of the very mediocre Pataki, not our own mayor.
(Next Mayor will be a duffer)
Most of the people looking to take Giuliani's job are not duffers. Thanks to term limits, the most able holders of other offices are running for new positions. And the City Council members who ARE duffers (the majority) will disappear. I love it.
The problem is we don't have Vampire State term limits.
[The problem is we don't have Vampire State term limits.]
That's why I'm hoping that Pataki gets selected for the vice presidency.
"That's why I'm hoping that Pataki gets selected for the vice presidency."
Now there's a useless, do nothing job.
Right Eugenius. The Vice Presidency is a useless, do nothing job, and since that's so we've the perfect do nothing, useless bum occupying it right now--Al the bore Gore.
Uhhhh ... guys ... off topic, hmmmm?
JV: Oooops, I slipped. If they don't I won't, but it was too good a chance to pass up.
I'll second that. Fred hit the nail square on the head.
Unfortunatley, the "good" politicians become corrupted after a few terms, becoming more concerned about re-electon than actually doing anything good.
Since the vast majority of City Council members are worthless, useless and incompetant boobs, I don't mind seeing them all kicked out of office after 2 terms.
That's frequently the case. Still, I think that's a decision the voters should make. Giuliani is an ideal e ample; will his successor at least maintain the successful aspects of his policies? In political life strong men tend to be followed by weak ones, and we can't afford to regress because we have too far to go.
I might add that Giuliani has done so much more than any mayor in living memory, it strikes me as a crying shame that we don't trust him enough to grant him another term.
I voted for Rudy two out of three times, but I'm sick of him, and will be glad to see him go.
Rudy Giuliani is a idiot Mayor i ever see & I don't vote for him because he think he a toughest mayor in new york city? gimme me a brake.
James Bond Jr. (Known an 0007)
We couldn't elect Giuliani mayor a third time if we wanted to. There's a two-term limit. This was put into place in the City charter after (or because of?) Koch's three terms.
Koch was not the first mayor to have three terms, Wagner and LaGuardia come to mind, (although all three failed in their attempt for a fourth, as did Cuomo as Governor), I don't think it had much to do with him. At the time that issue was on the ballet in New York, it was also big talk for the Republicans in Congress, (where it went down in flames and has not come back). I would like to see term limits at the state level as well. In Congress I would like to see a six term limit in the House and three terms in the Senate. (I can tolerate a senator for 18 years, but to have guys around as long as Kennedy and Thurmond is obscene).
I'm not sure, but I think that Rudy can run for a third term. Just no a third term in a row. After rotating to someone else, if the public is dissastified, it can put Rudy back in.
All it prevents is perpetual incumbancy, the plague of this state.
That may be true, I don't know all the facts. A president can't do that, ten years is the most they are allowed to serve. (That would be a VP who finishes a Pres. term, serving less than two years plus two of his own). I can't see any way or reason that Rudy would run again after being out of office for a term even if he wants to. I also don't believe he really wants to be senator. I think he is biding his time waiting for the eventual exit from the race by Hillary. Despite her recent announcments, I don't believe she will run. I think the mayor really wants to be Attorney General assuming W. wins next year.
All this talk about Term Limits is a waste of time.
We are given the right every four (or six) years to oust whomever we are not satified with. Why are term limits necessary in our supposedly Democratic society?
Doug aka BMTman
For two reasons.
Reason #1 - Money. The incumbents have an inside track to the money flow and will have it all flow their way.
Reason #2 - The Media. The Media which consists of mostly Democrats and Liberals will do their best to sway the people to vote that way. Look at the current presidential race. W. is way ahead in popularity and Gore's campain is a disaster, however all the stories your read are slamming W. This is nothing new.
Political races are by their nature unfair. Putting in term limits puts a nature of fairness into the system. Besides, the career politician was not what the Founding Father's of this country had in mind. They fought a revolution to free themselves of that yoke.
Regarding #2: The media used to be more liberal (or left-leaning) -- not anymore. Most media owners are NOT liberal, case in point Mr. Murdoch, the greedmonger, who owns most of it nowadays. There is a big difference between a newspaper's OP-ED page and their ownership.
Lastly, the founding fathers created the one-man-one vote so we can pick and choose candidates. It was fair then and is fair now. The problem in the past twenty years has been the COST of campaigning and the fact that there is not a level playing field for the poor-schnook politician who might have some great ideas and the fat-cat industrialist-types who have more money than God and can literally buy their way into political office. That's what's not fair. We need real campaign financing reform -- not term limits.
Doug aka BMTman
The best way to get finance reform is to get rid of the $1,000 contribution limit. The amount was set back in 1974 as a response to Watergate and has never been adjusted for inflation. That forces the candidates to spend too much of their time fundraising and often leads to questionable practices.
As far as ownership is concerned, Merdoch is only one outlet. ABC, CBS, and Time Warner (CNN) all have ownership that leans far to the left. FOX which is Murdoch is the only one that leans somewhat to the right.
ABC, CBS, and NBC are so left-leaning that it's a wonder that they haven't toppled over sideways. Did you notice that only FOX carried the story of Jesse "jackass" Jackson making a sorry spectacle of himself by trying to raise a cause-celebre over the expulsion of a bunch of punks, three of whom were beginning their third year in the ninth grade? You had to look in the back part of Part I to find even a smattering of news about it. Turner and his Communist wife are even worse. Oh, come on guys, stop this. You are making me break my promise to stay on subject. OK, let's hear it out there. What's your favorite train? Station?
FOX is run by Rupert "I would be King" Murdoch who is a pompous wind-bag. I guess he's your kind of guy. Not that I'm a fan of that phoney Jesse Jackson, but Mr. Murdoch's character is less than sparkling.
BTW, the New York Post -- which is conservative if you haven't noticed -- used to be a respectable paper. Now it is little more than a rag full of headlines that are closer to sensationalist demogogery than real jouralism. Too bad New York City doesn't have an outlet for the conservative intellectual -- unless that's a contradiction in terms???
Doug aka BMTman
No, it's not. Just look at North Carolina's senior Senator, Jesse Helms - a newspaper and TV reporter/commentator turned politician, as conservative as they come, probably the most intelligent and honest member of Congress. Regardless of whether or not you agree with his views, you have to give him credit for all that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Doug: Now don't have a stroke, but I can't stand Ruppert Murdock. He is a first class dork. As you know he now owns the Dodgers and you know how crappy they are. No, he's not my kind of guy at all. Yes, he is worse than Jesse Jackson. But of all of them, Hanoi Jane is the worst. It was one thing to protest the Vietnam War, but quite another to go there and taunt the American prisoners by telling them they were wrong and that Communism is a good thing. Some people have bad memories but I'm not one of them. I will never forget what that Commie %#@*&^ did. By the way, what is your favorite BMT train?
I agree Sea Beach, Lame Jane beats all others hands down as a complete disgrace and an embarrassment to Americans the world over. She should do us all a favor and disappear (along with her nitwit husband, Mr. CNN).
Since I was too young for the BMT AB Standards although they are on my list as having the most historic significance to Brookyn rapid transit. So my favorite train is not technically BMT equipment -- the R-38 cars, followed closely by the R-11/34s and the slant R-40s -- altough they spent a good deal of their running lives on Kings County routes. As for non-stainless steel favorites are the Standards and their (weaker) IND counterparts, the R-1 thru 9 series cars.
Any favorites in my list match yours?
Doug aka BMTman
Personally, I would take the R-1/9s over the BMT standards any day. Granted, both classes of cars moaned and groaned the same way. But the former had route and destination signs up front, while the latter did not. That was the main reason I didn't like the standards, plus I thought they looked ugly. OK, I was 10 when I first laid eyes on a train of BMT standards. Riding them on the Canarsie was cruel and unusual punishment to me. I couldn't wait to bail out at Union Square and take a nice, MARKED, speedy N express to 34th St. or Times Square. Over the years, I've come to appreciate them for their durability and toughness, and if they were still around today, I wouldn't have any qualms about riding them.
I associate the BMT standards with the Eastern Division, since by the time I became immersed in the subway, they were gone from the Southern Division. To this day, the R-32s, one of my all-time favorites, remain synonimous with the Southern Division in much the same way the R-10s (now you know how I feel about them) are forever linked with my all-time favorite route, the A.
P. S. I personally support term limits at any level of government.
A feature of the standards that usually goes unlooked at in this forum is the fact that the storm door window could be opened or closed. Maybe thats a subconscious reason I got into motorcycles after the discontinuance of the standards. Today I miss both the BMT Standards and the R1-9's. (What I call the IND Standards)
[The media used to be more liberal (or left-leaning) -- not anymore. Most media owners are NOT liberal, case in point Mr. Murdoch, the greedmonger, who owns most of it nowadays. There is a big difference between a newspaper's OP-ED page and their ownership.]
That might be true elsewhere in the country, but New York's a grand exception. While other places have an ever-increasing plethora of media outlets (newspapers, radio, TV, Internet, etc.), in New York the people that make the decisions rely on a single outlet - I speak, of course, of the _Times_. You would have to go back to the days of _Pravda_ in the old Soviet Union to find another newspaper or media outlet that controls the hearts and minds of the elites in the way that the _Times_ controls New York's leaders. And it goes without saying that the _Times_ remains firmly in control of the Upper West Side's limousine liberals.
And to think that once the New York Times was a leading Republican paper whose editor, Henry Raymond, led the charge for Abraham Lincoln's re-election during the critical Civil War year of 1864.
The Times is just pro-incumbant and anti-change, not pro-Democrat. Once Giuliani was in, the Times backed his re-election.
But they won't back him for Senate, whether or not Hillary runs. The editorial writers wouldn't want to deal with the abuse they would get on the Manhattan social circuit, including possibly being left off some of the `A' list party invitations next fall.
[But they won't back him for Senate, whether or not Hillary runs. The editorial writers wouldn't want to deal with the abuse they would get on the Manhattan social circuit, including possibly being left off some of the `A' list party invitations next fall.]
I can see that. I think Giuliani's a great mayor, but I don't think he would make a great Senator--he's a doer, not a group player, an executive rather than a legislator. I'd much rather see him replace the very mediocre Governor Pataki. Carey did little and Cuomo was all talk, so it's been a long time since NY State has had the kind of powerhouse governor it used to.
At one time too I thought he would make a fine Republican presidential candidate, a dedicated reformer in the spirit of Teddy Roosevelet, but his positions on free speech issues now seems to me too extreme to make that desireable.
Right. People always scream that The New York Times is some-how liberal. That's all perception, mostly due to the fact that they have sections of the paper that may appeal to a large segment of the 'artsy' community that are seen by the general public to be 'left-leaning'. But by and large The Times, if anything is middle of the road, politically.
Even the Daily News is more conservative than liberal (at least in the past ten years).
To be honest, the most liberal New York paper isn't even based in the city, it is Newsday, a Long Island based daily.
Doug aka BMTman
[re liberalism of the _Times_]
You are correct in that the _Times_ is not necessarily liberal in the classic sense. It does not always support traditional liberal viewpoints such as socialized medicine, more progressive income taxation, and more constitutional rights for criminals - or, more correctly, its advocacy of these positions is generally lukewarm at best.
What the _Times_ *has* taken to extreme is political correctness. An excellent example was in a recent article concerning tougher domestic-violence statutes. These laws were designed to protect women, in fact the federal law is called the "Violence Against Women Act" or something to that effect. Yet it turns out that these laws have been having an unanticipated side effect - in many states, a substantial percentage of the people being arrested and convicted for domestic violence are female. Mutual-combat and revenge situations account for only a relatively small proportion of female arrests. This of course does not fit in with the p.c. notion of women as helpless victims who have to be protected from big bad men. It was amusing to see the _Times_ trot out one self-proclaimed "expert" after another to explain away this state of affairs. The conclusion (reported elsewhere) that the _Times_ could not bring itself to face, and indeed which was mentioned by just one (female) expert in the article, is that for some reason there has been a big increase in the numbers of nasty, aggressive young women. No one at the _Times_ has the nerve to report such an un-p.c. conclusion.
[What the _Times_ *has* taken to extreme is political correctness. No one at the _Times_ has the nerve to report such an un-p.c. conclusion.]
You've hit the nail on the head. Staffing decisions were made, in some cases as the result of lawsuits, to broaden the background of reporters and writers without regard to talent. That has resulted in some embarassingly bad writing, a greater variety of unfortunately oversimplified viewpoints, and a good deal of dissension within the newsroom, because many staff members--including many who are traditional liberals--are very unhappy with some noteably unworthy decisions, such as assigning only minority writers to cover issues that affect minority communities. (That resulted in one of the most shameful incidents in the newspaper's history, when, during the Crown Heights riot, the reporters who were covering the event initially failed completely to report what was going on.)
But to me the saddest thing is the reduction in the analytical quality of the paper. Just look at some of their columnists--a hack conservative named under pressure from the Nixon administration, a semi-bright Harvard (and don't think he'll let you forget that) liberal whose every thought apparently starts with the proposition that Mayor Giuliani is evil incarnate, a nasty woman who does nothing but insult people. I happen to like diverse, broad spectrum viewpoints--but I don't find any of these people interesting in the least.
Larry: Thanks for the note on Giuliani and the Times. I didn't know they supported his re-election in 1997.
[And to think that once the New York Times was a leading Republican paper whose editor, Henry Raymond, led the charge for Abraham Lincoln's re-election during the critical Civil War year of 1864.]
The Republican party of the 19th Century was very different from the Republican party of today. The conservative southern wing of the Democratic party bolted over to the Republicans during the Reagan years, while the progressive Teddy Roosevelt wing of the Republican party moved to the Democrats. They aren't really the same animals.
Liberal now, liberal then. Remember that the Republicans were the more liberal Yankee party during the late unpleasantness.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Which means the Democrat Party was the jackass party then just as it is now. Late unpleasantness? Come on! If it was unpleasant, it turned out bad for your crowd, not mine. Besides, since Southerners are now accepted as the most patriotic pro-Americans, the fact that the Civil War turned out the way it did was a good thing for the South-----in the long run.
Campain finance reform is one of those politically correct chiches that everyone throws around these days similar to "We have to save Social Security", or "We need better schools", etc. No one every says what campain finance reform is or how to go about it. When I give ideas like term limits or in my previous post, eliminating the $1000 contriubiton limit, I usually get scorn, but no one ever gives me a better alternative.
Mark: Don't give it another thought. We Republicans raise more than the Democrats and they're envious as hell. By the way, what is your favorite and least favorite station? Do you have a favorite train? I think you can guess what mine is.
[Mark: Don't give it another thought. We Republicans raise more than the Democrats and they're envious as hell. By the way, what is your favorite and least favorite station? Do you have a favorite train? I think you can guess what mine is.]
Some might see it in a different perspective, i.e., the Republican leadership blocks campaign finance reform because it wants to protect its huge financial advantage as the party favored by big business and the rich.
Campaign finance reform is something no politician (of either party) wants to tackle since it is unpopular with the political hacks.
What the ideal situation wuld be is some form of "cap" on the amount a policitian can spend on TV commercials, newspaper ads, etc., so that even "the little guy" MIGHT be able to compete in the larger political arena. Just look what Dan Quayle had to say about George Dubya Bush -- it was something about his millions are hard to match for any opponent, making the process unfair.
Doug aka BMTman
Term limits are an effective substitute for campaign finance reform. The value of an asset depends on the number of years it will pay out income. These days, if you buy a politician, you could get returns for any number of years. With term limits, the return is less, and people will be willing to pay less to put them in. Besides, at the end of the term, they might vote their consciences.
The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional to limit the amount of money that a candidate can spend on himself/herself. That being the case, putting limits on the contributions non-millionaire candidates can accept only further increases the advantage of the wealthy. That being the case, we are better off without any limits on contributions. It may sound paradoxical, but it is the truth.
[The Supreme Court has ruled that it is unconstitutional to limit the amount of money that a candidate can spend on himself/herself. That being the case, putting limits on the contributions non-millionaire candidates can accept only further increases the advantage of the wealthy. That being the case, we are better off without any limits on contributions. It may sound paradoxical, but it is the truth.]
But here's another paradox--many of our best, most honest public officials have been old-money scions. The reason, I think, is simple--they don't need contributions, so they can't be bought, and because they've inherited their money they lack the greedy callousness of the self-made man.
You are right. While not all self-made men are characterized by "greedy callousness", many are.
Our founding fathers set the remuneration of most public offices fairly low. One reason was precisely so that the people attracted to public service would be those who were already financially comfortable and so would not try to use their offices as vehicles for further enrichment. In general, they knew what they were doing, and we tamper with their plans at our peril.
Like I said, if you remove the $1,000 cap then the same people who funded W. would have had money availble to Quayle, or Liddy.
By the way, my favorite terminal is 33rd Street on the Path. There you can transfer to trains to take you anywhere!
[For two reasons.
Reason #1 - Money. The incumbents have an inside track to the money flow and will have it all flow their way.
Reason #2 - The Media. The Media which consists of mostly Democrats and Liberals will do their best to sway the people to vote that way. Look at the current presidential race. W. is way ahead in popularity and Gore's campain is a disaster, however all the stories your read are slamming W. This is nothing new.]
This contradicts number one. Bush is where he is because of money and the backing of the Republican machine, not because he fought his way through the Republican primaries. Ditto for Gore, thanks to his position as vice president. Neither was exactly chosen by the people, and it can fairly be argued that term limits have the effect of returning power to the party machines rather than the other way around.
As to media bias, I think it's much less partisan than you give it credit for. For example, the press slammed Clinton mercilessly until Newt Gringrich gave them a better target--after that, Clinton could do no wrong. The press slammed Carter from A to Z (remember the "killer rabbit"?), and Ford as well ("Ford to City: Drop Dead"), but was extremely kind to Reagan in spite of the fact most reporters diasgreed with him politically. Overall, it seems to me that the press reacts more to the perceived strength or weakness of a candidate than his position on the political spectrum.
Ironically, Washington insiders in both the Republican and Democratic parties typically think very highly of Al Gore--he's considered honest, serious, and capable. His weakness as a candidate is a perfect example of how charisma and spin have replaced other factors in our political life.
Honest and serious? OK, I'll buy that. Capable? Only relative to Dan Quayle.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Honest and serious? OK, I'll buy that. Capable? Only relative to Dan Quayle.]
I think it's important not to confuse his campaign bungling with what insiders say is rock solid, capable performance behind the scenes. Unfortunately, Gore isn't alone in that respect--some very capable people just don't handle the spotlight well.
The famous Internet gaffe is a perfect example--his silly slip about "inventing" it obscured for the public the fact that he did indeed champion it in its early, government funded days.
There are lots of examples of this sort of public/private dichotomy. Eisenhower was so inarticulate in public that he was widely considered dumb, when in fact he was a genius who graduated first in his class. Richard Nixon came across as nervous in front of a crowd, but in person he was extremely warm. FDR came across as everybody's best friend, but those who dealt with him knew that he was a manipulative charmer who couldn't be trusted. Harry Truman had the appearance of a petty tough guy, but he's now widely considered to have been one of our most honest and dedicated presidents--while the grandfatherly, seemingly bumbling Eisenhower seems shifty, smart, and calculating in retrospect. And Abe Lincoln was an awkwardly gangly hayseed, ugly, with a laughably high, squeaky voice . . . and I wonder whether he could be elected today.
Josh: You are so right about those former Presidemts you mentioned. As far as Lincoln is concerned, you hit the mark on the head. As I write this my right bulletin board is crammed from top to bottom with pictures of Abe, who happens to be my hero. He could not get elected today because we put a lot of emphasis ons style and not on substance. Just imagine what our country would look like today if we had TV back in 1860 and Lincoln had to run under those conditions. We would not be the US today but a fractured conglomoration of broken provinces.
[Josh: You are so right about those former Presidemts you mentioned. As far as Lincoln is concerned, you hit the mark on the head. As I write this my right bulletin board is crammed from top to bottom with pictures of Abe, who happens to be my hero. He could not get elected today because we put a lot of emphasis ons style and not on substance. Just imagine what our country would look like today if we had TV back in 1860 and Lincoln had to run under those conditions. We would not be the US today but a fractured conglomoration of broken provinces.]
Scary thought. I like to think we become more serious about our leaders when we face a crisis, but maybe I'm being too optimistic.
Absolutely 100% correct Doug. The issue of term limits was another non-issue foisted upon the electorate to divert our attention while the 'INS' picked our pockets and the 'OUTS' waited for their turn.
[Koch was not the first mayor to have three terms, Wagner and LaGuardia come to mind, (although all three failed in their attempt for a fourth, as did Cuomo as Governor)]
I find it interesting--and supportive of my opposition to term limits--that Wagner was a good mayor, Koch a fine one, and LaGuardia a great one. Lesser mayors--Lindsay, Beame, Dinkins--would not have been affected by term limits, but better mayors would have been--and that would have been to the City's detriment.
Thank you. That's one of the best arguments I've heard here for no term limits. It hurts the good politician as much as a lousy one. To use an old phrase: Why through the baby out with the bath water?
Doug aka BMTman
See, I had always opposed tem limits and now you guys started me thinking. Now is Marion Barry a strong reason for term limits or the exception that proves the rule?
See, I had always opposed term limits and now you guys started me thinking. Now is Marion Barry a strong reason for term limits or the exception that proves the rule?
Actually, Marion Barry is a good reason to pass a law that ex-fellons cannot hold public office. A generation ago, he would have been run out of town, even in D.C.
New York State has such a statute. In order to hold public office, a convicted felon must have a "Certificate of No Disability" signed by a judge and stating he/she may hold public office.
How easy is it to pay off a judge to buy one on those? I prefer a permanent ban.
He was the rare exception.
His situation is like that of Bill Clinton. People saw that he had personal failings, but he was still able to govern once he got cleaned up.
Doug aka BMTman
The rationalizations of a true democrat.
But Bill Clinton was not a felon, in fact, he had committed no crime.
Not true. He did commit crimes, but the Senate didn't have the stomache to convict him. Remember, he was impeached by the House. Therefore, since there was no conviction, he is not a felon. That doen't mean he didn't commit crimes. Guilty people get off quite frequently, especially if you have fame and power. The more powerful you are, the harder it is to convict.
Actually, it's more of an opinion on what he did. House Republicans and Kenneth W. Starr believed he committed crimes, whereas Democrats didn't.
As for the perjury, I don't think it's a crime in that it's none of anyone else's business who he decides to play with in the Oval Office, so long as it's consented. It was irrelevant to the Jones trial too.
But Clinton also gets a nice present after all this. He would be on the list of famous presidents as the only man elected as president to be impeached by the House.
The real reason for term limits has nothing to do with any felonies. It has to do with coasting, and with the same special interests winning year after year.
As to the first, when David Gunn left the TA he said the reason was that everything seemed good to him relative to how bad things were before, so he had to leave in bring in someone else who would feel the need to make things better. Regardless of what you thing of Rudy's term thus far, there is no doubt he now believes this is the best of all possible cities, and there is no need for new ideas.
As to the latter, if enough of these SOBs were out, there is always a chance that some of their replacements will choose to staff schools and build transit lines instead of staffing and building hospitals.
[The real reason for term limits has nothing to do with any felonies. It has to do with coasting, and with the same special interests winning year after year.]
But the special interests win, term limits or not. In fact, it's been argued that term limits make them *more* powerful by rotating elected politicians while the back room guys stay in power. As to entrenched and tired incumbents, agreed, particularly in Congress--but it seems to me that they're a lot less likely to do something when deprived of a chance for re-election, and it's also important to recognize that for every Jesse Helms there's a competent, experienced, hard working politician somewhere.
[As to the first, when David Gunn left the TA he said the reason was that everything seemed good to him relative to how bad things were before, so he had to leave in bring in someone else who would feel the need to make things better. Regardless of what you thing of Rudy's term thus far, there is no doubt he now believes this is the best of all possible cities, and there is no need for new ideas.]
I don't believe that. I think that Giuliani has slacked off because of political reality--by law he's a lame duck, so he no longer has to worry about being re-elected, while at he same time he has a strong ince
[The real reason for term limits has nothing to do with any felonies. It has to do with coasting, and with the same special interests winning year after year.]
But the special interests win, term limits or not. In fact, it's been argued that term limits make them *more* powerful by rotating elected politicians while the back room guys stay in power. As to entrenched and tired incumbents, agreed, particularly in Congress--but it seems to me that they're a lot less likely to do something when deprived of a chance for re-election, and it's also important to recognize that for every Jesse Helms there's a competent, experienced, hard working politician somewhere.
[As to the first, when David Gunn left the TA he said the reason was that everything seemed good to him relative to how bad things were before, so he had to leave in bring in someone else who would feel the need to make things better. Regardless of what you thing of Rudy's term thus far, there is no doubt he now believes this is the best of all possible cities, and there is no need for new ideas.]
I don't believe that. I think that Giuliani has slacked off because of political reality--by law he's a lame duck, so he no longer has to worry about being re-elected, while at he same time he has a strong incentive to mend things with the likes of Pataki.
[As to the latter, if enough of these SOBs were out, there is always a chance that some of their replacements will choose to staff schools and build transit lines instead of staffing and building hospitals.]
Possibly, if they're good. But political office tends to go in cycles of competence/mediocrity, and my guess is that we're in for several years of a mediocrity which we can ill afford.
And while Giuliani hasn't been as pro-active as he was initially, he still runs a tight ship and addresses smaller problems effectively. He deserves credit for that.
The City badly needs a tough guy to continue the fight against the almost mind-boggling assortment of special interests that have Balkanized it. Even Giuliani was unsuccessful at defeating the medical lobby.
They should elect me. A one term mayor, guaranteed--they'd have to ring City Hall with troops.
Would you be willing to allow railfans to ride around the loop once again on the 6?
[Would you be willing to allow railfans to ride around the loop once again on the 6?]
As far as I know, you still can--get off the train and then duck back on!
[We couldn't elect Giuliani mayor a third time if we wanted to.]
My point, and a perfect example of why I oppose term limits. The voters already remove bad mayors after a term or two; term limits simply ensure that we'll remove the good ones as well.
I wouldn't want Guiliani to be around too long. The more you're re-elected, the more arrogant you get. See: Ed Koch.
[I wouldn't want Guiliani to be around too long. The more you're re-elected, the more arrogant you get. See: Ed Koch.]
Did Koch get arrogant, or did his political habits catch up with him? When he was elected, I recall hearing from people who worked for the City (including an unimpeachable source, my mother) that he'd brought back patronage in a big way--that the word came down that the borough presidents were to get everything they wanted, etc. Morale plummetted among those who cared more about their work than politics.
I'm not aware of any evidence that Koch himself was corrupt, but that sort of cronyism eventually led to the scandals that cost him his popularity.
Koch was all about image: he wanted the city to look good, even if it was falling apart on the inside. Do we all not forget those metal "fake" painted windows that were installed in abandoned buildings back in the 1980's? He constantly takes credit for the subway's resurgance under his administration, even though it was Cuomo who deserved that.
Patronage is common to every mayoral administration. It's a way of life that no man/woman will ever change. Koch's administration merely had more members caught engaging in such activities.
[Koch was all about image: he wanted the city to look good, even if it was falling apart on the inside. Do we all not forget those metal "fake" painted windows that were installed in abandoned buildings back in the 1980's? He constantly takes credit for the subway's resurgance under his administration, even though it was Cuomo who deserved that.]
Koch had to get at least some of the credit for the subway's improvement. Better policing was a major part of the improvement, and that was within his scope of responsibility. He also promoted a sense of "civil behavoir" that played a big part - for example, he made it clear that graffiti was destructive vandalism rather than "art," and that reduced the public tolerance for it.
[Koch was all about image: he wanted the city to look good, even if it was falling apart on the inside. Do we all not forget those metal "fake" painted windows that were installed in abandoned buildings back in the 1980's? He constantly takes credit for the subway's resurgance under his administration, even though it was Cuomo who deserved that.
Patronage is common to every mayoral administration. It's a way of life that no man/woman will ever change. Koch's administration merely had more members caught engaging in such activities.]
Koch stopped the City's slide, and took on some special interests--when he wasn't selling out to them.
Not all administrations are the same from a patronage or political angle. Koch's was *very* much on the sleazy side--something that never really makes it into the papers, but was well known to those who worked in the higher levels of City government, and had to live with the frequently demoralizing results.
Compare for example Koch's todying to his friends in the taxi industry with Giuliani's strong action to clean it up. Result: you couldn't even hail the filthy cabs in the Koch administration because they were off taking radio calls, the drivers never took you where you wanted to go, you had to fear for your life when you crossed the street. All of that changed under Giuliani, for the simple reason that he cared more about improving things than keeping an industry and a famously corrupt agency happy.
I think the only reason Kock "saved" this city was just getting elected, thus removng the incompetant Abe Beame. As for actually doing anything, I don't know ...
Koch's favorite line was "How'm I doing?", becasue he only cared about himself. If anyone benifited from his policies, that was secondary to him. The reason he hates Rudy so much is that Rudy (love him or hate him) does care about the city and the people who live here. Rudy has taken on things that no other mayor ever had the guts to do, (taxi industry, Fulton Fish Market, etc). Koch and his ego, can't stand Rudy's success.
i always found it funny on his old WABC call in show that he felt Rudy could not be a great mayor becuae to be a great mayor you have to be loved by the people. Mabey Koch has a selective memory, but one thing he was not, was loved by most of the people.
I don't doubt he was popular. He's a likeable guy. But compared to Rudy, Koch achieved nothing substantial during his reign.
Rudy's first term might have been better than Koch's first term, but Koch's first two terms were better than Rudy's second. All Rudy has done is pick fights and hand out cash to his friends.
In the 1980s, when the economy boomed, infrastructure investment and public school spending went up under Koch, and debt went down. Rudy continues to pile on the debt, and has kept transportation and school spending low relative to income (right where Josh would say it should be, because the people in those schools and trains don't deserve much anyway).
In short, for the issues I care about, Koch was better than Rudy. Rudy is much better on other issues, but he's stopped being an asset and started being a liability.
I thought Koch's best term was his first. Remember for a while he was "Rudy light" -- standing up to some of the special interest groups, in part because he had Felix Royatan and the financial control board supervising the spending of the city. Koch could say "no" because with the city coming out of bankruptcy, there really wasn't any extra money to spend.
Also, remember Koch wasn't supposed to win the Democratic primary for mayor, Bella Abzug was. Koch beat her in part because he came out in favor of the death penalty for certain crimes, and was accused of being insensative to the downtrodden of society. Sounds a lot like Rudy's current flap about the homeless, doesn't it?
[I thought Koch's best term was his first. Remember for a while he was "Rudy light" -- standing up to some of the special interest groups, in part because he had Felix Royatan and the financial control board supervising the spending of the city. Koch could say "no" because with the city coming out of bankruptcy, there really wasn't any extra money to spend.
Also, remember Koch wasn't supposed to win the Democratic primary for mayor, Bella Abzug was. Koch beat her in part because he came out in favor of the death penalty for certain crimes, and was accused of being insensative to the downtrodden of society. Sounds a lot like Rudy's current flap about the homeless, doesn't it?]
Agreed. We seem to have forgotten that Koch spent a lot of energy fighting some of the excesses and interests that Giuliani tackled more successfully later on.
That business about the homeless is obscene. What in the world is wrong with asking someone to work? The homeless consist of three sometimes overlapping groups--dumped mental patients, drug addicts, and people who are down on their luck. The mental patients deserve a simple quadrupartite system--medication on their own if they can hack it, supervised medication if they can't hack that, a halfway program if they can't hack that, and hospitalization for those who still don't respond. The addicts should be given the option of treatment--and if they refuse, they should be locked up, because it's the only thing that will save them. And the merely destitute should be given jobs and housing.
What's so hard about that? It sure beats leaving psychotics to die on the street or sending junkies to Riker's Island.
(Medication for the mentally ill).
One thing no one in this debate seems to mention -- at least in the articles I read -- is that the mentally ill don't want to take their medication. That's based on a couple of family members, cousins and such, who are plagued with that affliction. And its not just because their crazy.
Today's medicine is a blunt instrument. It suppresses inappropriate mental activity by suppressing all mental activity, and making you feel like a zombie. The medication benefits the rest of us by supressing anti-social behavior more than it benefits the mentally ill.
Family members who have to call people to put other family members in the hospital are resented -- for decades. They don't want to go. Between the side effects and the stigma of mental illness, the minute the worst symptoms are gone mental patients desperately want to believe they are "cured." So they stop taking the medication. Sometimes it seems to be episodic -- it comes and goes, so you can stop taking the medication -- sometimes.
The whole thing isn't easy. It just shows how the government is forced to shoot in the dark or err on the side of one type of mistake -- keep too many in, let too many out. Right now, perhaps we let too many out, because its cheaper. Subway therapy. Other states have an even cheaper solution. Greyhound therapy.
[(Medication for the mentally ill).
One thing no one in this debate seems to mention -- at least in the articles I read -- is that the mentally ill don't want to take their medication. That's based on a couple of family members, cousins and such, who are plagued with that affliction. And its not just because their crazy.
Today's medicine is a blunt instrument. It suppresses inappropriate mental activity by suppressing all mental activity, and making you feel like a zombie. The medication benefits the rest of us by supressing anti-social behavior more than it benefits the mentally ill.
Family members who have to call people to put other family members in the hospital are resented -- for decades. They don't want to go. Between the side effects and the stigma of mental illness, the minute the worst symptoms are gone mental patients desperately want to believe they are "cured." So they stop taking the medication. Sometimes it seems to be episodic -- it comes and goes, so you can stop taking the medication -- sometimes.
The whole thing isn't easy. It just shows how the government is forced to shoot in the dark or err on the side of one type of mistake -- keep too many in, let too many out. Right now, perhaps we let too many out, because its cheaper. Subway therapy. Other states have an even cheaper solution. Greyhound therapy. ]
Yes, the antipsychotic medications have some pretty dreadful side effects, although the newer ones are better than the old. Nevertheless, they're all we have, and by the time someone needs them they're frequently not competent to make a decision. I've seen two many horrors that came from deinstitutionalization--including a friend's mother who refused to take her medication and killed herself.
Also, while it may not be PC to say so, it seems to me that we can and should hold *everybody* to a minimum level of responsible behavior. If someone can take care of themselves, fine. But if someone is peeing on the street or threatening people or smoking crack, that behavior is unacceptable, and we have have the right to stop it--even if it means requiring someone to take medication, or locking them up. There are times still when the street feels like an insane asylum.
[Other states have an even cheaper solution (to the problem of the homesless mentally ill). Greyhound therapy.]
Yep, and we all know what city is the destination of those Greyhound buses :=(
[[Other states have an even cheaper solution (to the problem of the homesless mentally ill). Greyhound therapy.]
Yep, and we all know what city is the destination of those Greyhound buses :=( ]
And it may have something to do with the fact that we're the only City to house every homeless person--and that we aren't ballsy enough to take revenge.
[Rudy continues to pile on the debt, and has kept transportation and school spending low relative to income (right where Josh would say it should be, because the people in those schools and trains don't deserve much anyway).]
I don't know why you said that. It should be clear from what I've said here that I'm in favor of higher spending for both transit--to the tune of at least $1 billion/year--and for our schools, which desperately need several billion dollars for improvements to the physical plant and more competitive wages for teachers.
What I am *not* in favor of is spending money where we don't need it, e.g., on token clerks or conductors that we don't need rather than Second Avenue subway builders or teachers that we do. That's pork, it's wasteful, and it hurts people, because the same people who are being paid to do useless jobs could be paid to do useful ones. And I believe that any region that makes itself uncompetitive through taxation is just hurting its own citizens, because that's a zero sum game--it takes real economic activity to boost the fortunes of people in an area, not a British Disease shell game.
And as to what people "deserve," I think I've also made it clear that I believe in doing *more* for the poor, not less. But our current anti-poverty programs are perpetuators of poverty rather than enders of it.
(Business is a plus sum game)
So I would have argued. But recent figures suggest that tax revenues are going down from individual you're my pal you don't have to pay taxes deals. We've become very competitive for businesses that either dodge their taxes, or cut a "retention deal." We are very uncompetitive for businesses starting out without favors.
Here's the point -- people who demand tax reductions are not satisfied when taxes are reduced. Its ideology, not arithmetic. Just as the poverty industry is not satisfied by the fact that it gets more here than elsewhere. It's never enough.
[So I would have argued. But recent figures suggest that tax revenues are going down from individual you're my pal you don't have to pay taxes deals. We've become very competitive for businesses that either dodge their taxes, or cut a "retention deal." We are very uncompetitive for businesses starting out without favors.
Here's the point -- people who demand tax reductions are not satisfied when taxes are reduced. Its ideology, not arithmetic. Just as the poverty industry is not satisfied by the fact that it gets more here than elsewhere. It's never enough.]
I agree 95%. Rather than cutting deals, we should cut taxes moderately across the board. I say 95%, because there may indeed be some cases where a locality attempts to lure a major employer with a tax break, and it's genuinely in the City's interest to keep it.
Another consideration--even if a tax break results in a net decrease in government revenues, it can benefit the people of the City. The size of government may have to decrease because tax revenues do, but the people who work for the company do well. Our only goal can't be the maximization of tax revenue.
(Maximization of taxes is not the only goal.
How "competitive" are you willing to be, Josh?
Here's one for us parents. They have these optional categories of Medicaid spending called "home health care" and "personal care": the latter is basically maid and personal shopper service for elderly who cannot take care of themselves. Most states do not offer these services. They reason that the elderly will avoid a nursing home unless they have no choice, but will be thrilled if a doctor says they can have a maid and a personal shopper. These categories are responsible for most of the Medicaid growth, and the city and state pay 50 percent. We're talking billions.
Here's the kicker -- New York State accounts for half the national spending in these categories! The formerly middle class elderly, who gave their money to their kids who moved out of state and are now considered poor, have a pretty good deal. What do you say? Cut them and about 30,000 members of local 1199 off? Or do the easy thing -- continue to spend far less than average on schools and transit (they won't miss it anyway)?
Low taxes aren't the only goal either.
[How "competitive" are you willing to be, Josh?
Here's one for us parents. They have these optional categories of Medicaid spending called "home health care" and "personal care": the latter is basically maid and personal shopper service for elderly who cannot take care of themselves. Most states do not offer these services. They reason that the elderly will avoid a nursing home unless they have no choice, but will be thrilled if a doctor says they can have a maid and a personal shopper. These categories are responsible for most of the Medicaid growth, and the city and state pay 50 percent. We're talking billions.
Here's the kicker -- New York State accounts for half the national spending in these categories! The formerly middle class elderly, who gave their money to their kids who moved out of state and are now considered poor, have a pretty good deal. What do you say? Cut them and about 30,000 members of local 1199 off? Or do the easy thing -- continue to spend far less than average on schools and transit (they won't miss it anyway)?
Low taxes aren't the only goal either.]
I don't know the situation of the majority of elderly people who receive home care, but my grandmother had it, and it was far from a luxury--life was a constant struggle for her even with the program, and the only alternative was a nursing home. My understanding to the program is it's justification is that it's less costly to care for an elderly person that way than in a home, but that may no longer be true, and if it's not I'd say it should be eliminated--not because I don't believe in it on a compassionate basis, but because I don't think the City can go it alone on this sort of program without hurting its average resident more than it helps him, and because I don't think it's being delivered in the most efficient way. (I might add that from the perspective of the elderly the service is inadequate and wasteful. There are all sorts of silly rules--for example, the helper doesn't have to stand on a ladder, as if the old person could do that herself!)
Conversely, this is a perfect illustration of the kind of area that could be staffed at no cost by some of the hundreds of thousands of people the City now ignores or pays to do nothing.
I might add that those middle class children who move off and leave Grandma are probably leaving her in part because the government pays. Who wants to make sacrifices when the government will do it for you?
I have to stress again that I don't think that helping the poor is wrong, and I don't think that the country does enough. I just don't think that the City can make up for a national compassion on a local basis without hurting the average resident more than it helps him, and I think that many of the programs we offer on the city and federal level are political boondoggles and counterproductive mistakes.
(In place of a nursing home)
We also spend triple the national average on nursing homes. So all that home health care and personal care spending has not reduced nursing home spending at all. The counter-argument is that those working in these industries are not well paid, and it's an alternative to welfare, and therefore well worth spending 15-20 percent less than average on schools and 20-40 percent less than average on transportation.
Bottom line -- you want cuts, you've got to say who to cut. Right now, services on which our spending is BELOW average get cut first, for the same reason they got below average to begin with -- power.
[We also spend triple the national average on nursing homes. So all that home health care and personal care spending has not reduced nursing home spending at all. The counter-argument is that those working in these industries are not well paid, and it's an alternative to welfare, and therefore well worth spending 15-20 percent less than average on schools and 20-40 percent less than average on transportation.
Bottom line -- you want cuts, you've got to say who to cut. Right now, services on which our spending is BELOW average get cut first, for the same reason they got below average to begin with -- power.]
One of the reasons I'm so in favor of paring government--it just doesn't react to real needs. I can just imagine what would happen to a business that spent triple the national average on anything, even coffee stirrers!
[They have these optional categories of Medicaid spending called "home
health care" and "personal care": the latter is basically maid and personal shopper service for elderly who cannot take care of themselves ... New York State accounts for half the national spending in these categories! The formerly middle class elderly, who gave their money to their kids who moved out of state and are now considered poor, have a pretty good deal. What do you say? Cut them and about 30,000 members of local 1199 off? Or do the easy thing -- continue to spend far less than average on schools and transit (they won't miss it anyway)?]
I'm certainly no defender of New York's Medicaid spending levels, but there are a couple of factors to consider. Home health care and personal care services actually may save money in the long run despite their high cost. That's because these services may (I use the term "may" for a reason, as I don't know for sure) help many elderly people stay out of nursing homes, for a while at least. And there's no denying that nursing home care is monstrously expensive. Connecticut was spending so much Medicaid money on nursing homes that in the early 1990s the state put a moratorium on the construction of new facilities and the expansion of existing ones. Tough business, to be sure, but it was essential to save the state from financial ruin. My point is that keeping people out of nursing homes for as long as possible is absolutely crucial these days. It might well be that NY's special Medicaid services do help achieve that goal, however imperfect they may be.
The second factor ties in with your comment about the elderly who gave their money to the children, who then moved out of state. It may well be - once again, I do not know for sure - that a substantial percentage of NYC's elderly do not have children. I suspect this may be the case because the city's long been dominated, relatively speaking, by single people rather than families (though that's probably been changing). Much of the care for the elderly throughout the country is provided _gratis_ by their children and other relatives. That's probably true especially with respect to the sort of personal care services that cost NYC so much. Without families to rely upon, many of NYC's elderly have no choice but to turn to Medicaid.
[Without families to rely upon, many of NYC's elderly have no choice but to turn to Medicaid.]
Since it's so costly to take care of an elderly person in a nursing home or with home care, most families will avoid it if they can and let the old person go on Medicaid.
Quite frankly, we in this country today dump our old people; in an earlier age, they came to live with us. And yet those with parents old enough to require this sort of care are precisely at the times in their lives when they're at the peak of their prosperity.
[Quite frankly, we in this country today dump our old people; in an earlier age, they came to live with us.]
It's probably unrealistic to expect people today to care for the elderly to the same extent as in years past. Life expectancies may be longer today, but unfortunately the quality of life hasn't increased to the same extent. Many elderly people today linger on for months or years in a steadily deteriorating state, rather than dying relatively quickly as used to be the case (especially in the days before antibiotics, when pneumonia was known as the "old man's friend" for the way it carried off many older folks in a reasonably quick and painless manner before they deteriorated too far). It's one thing to make a home for a healthy, mobile elderly parent. It's another thing entirely to care for a parent who's become bedridden, senile and incontinent - conditions that probably are much more common today than in the past.
Agreed. I had the responsibility for my great-aunt Hilda, of blessed memory, and while I regret that she did not take us up on the offer to move into our home (choosing an assisted-living facility instead) I am glad that, when the time came that she was not able to remain there, we were able to find an excellent nursing home for her. Physically she was in very good shape right up to the end (at the age of 90) but mentally she was back in the New Paltz of her childhood, playing in the yard at 17 S. Chestnut Street and thinking I was her father, or occasionally down in Lynbrook teaching second grade and thinking I was one of her students. For my wife to try and deal with that, along with our three younger children who were still at home (and for a short stretch our older daughter who briefly returned to the nest) would have been way too much.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[It's probably unrealistic to expect people today to care for the elderly to the same extent as in years past. Life expectancies may be longer today, but unfortunately the quality of life hasn't increased to the same extent. Many elderly people today linger on for months or years in a steadily deteriorating state, rather than dying relatively quickly as used to be the case (especially in the days before antibiotics, when pneumonia was known as the "old man's friend" for the way it carried off many older folks in a reasonably quick and painless manner before they deteriorated too far). It's one thing to make a home for a healthy, mobile elderly parent. It's another thing entirely to care for a parent who's become bedridden, senile and incontinent - conditions that probably are much more common today than in the past]
True--that's often mentioned as a reason for home care/nursing care. But it seems to me that for many elderly people there are many years of in-between functioning. And--here's a question--is it harder to care for an incontinent, bed-ridden elderly person than it is to care for an infant? It seems to me that if there isn't a serious complication such as Alzheimer's, it's easier.
[And--here's a question--is it harder to care for an
incontinent, bed-ridden elderly person than it is to care for an infant?]
Yikes! Are you serious? An infant is tiny and can be picked up and taken wherever you need them to go. A bed-ridden elderly person is a full-size adult! MUCH harder to clean, bathe, change diapers, etc. -- especially if they're not cooperative. Furthermore, the developmental miracle is in reverse. Yes, a drooling incontinent babbling infant is superficially similar to an elderly person with dementia, but with the former you watch the miracle of their acquiring new skills, while with the latter you agonize as they lose skills and you remember what they were. I'm not saying we should abandon our elderly, but don't be so quick to criticize until you've walked the road yourself. And there's no question that modern medicine's "miracles" are making the physically-but-not-mentally alive elder situation more common. Assisted living is probably a better option, and frankly, we as a society should just realize we have to pay for it. If you're opposed to taxes, then how about required savings, based on a percentage of income, which could be passed on to heirs if not used?
[And there's no question that modern medicine's "miracles" are making
the physically-but-not-mentally alive elder situation more common. Assisted living is probably a better option, and frankly, we as a society should just realize we have to pay for it.]
Quite true, of course, but it doesn't explain why NYC spends such vastly greater amounts on care for the elderly than does any other place (meaning less money for transit and much else). While NYC's presumably higher percentage of family-less elderly may be part of the explanation, it can't be anything close to the full reason.
[Quite true, of course, but it doesn't explain why NYC spends such vastly greater amounts on care for the elderly than does any other place (meaning less money for transit and much else). While NYC's presumably higher percentage of family-less elderly may be part of the explanation, it can't be anything close to the full reason.]
I'm beginning to think that we need some kind of law capping our expenditures in any area to the national average. For a billion dollars a year, out of our 37 billion dollar budget, we could have a dream system of transportation. For another billion we could rebuild every school in two years, then hire good teachers and principals at competitive wages.
When I was looking for an apartment a couple of years back I read an article on what the City was spending on apartments for crack addicts I mean the homeless. It was something like $1000 a month, almost as much as it cost then to rent a market rate studio on the Upper East Side.
[Yikes! Are you serious? An infant is tiny and can be picked up and taken wherever you need them to go. A bed-ridden elderly person is a full-size adult! MUCH harder to clean, bathe, change diapers, etc. -- especially if they're not cooperative. Furthermore, the developmental miracle is in reverse. Yes, a drooling incontinent babbling infant is superficially similar to an elderly person with dementia, but with the former you watch the miracle of their acquiring new skills, while with the latter you agonize as they lose skills and you remember what they were. I'm not saying we should abandon our elderly, but don't be so quick to criticize until you've walked the road yourself. And there's no question that modern medicine's "miracles" are making the physically-but-not-mentally alive elder situation more common. Assisted living is probably a better option, and frankly, we as a society should just realize we have to pay for it. If you're opposed to taxes, then how about required savings, based on a percentage of income, which could be passed on to heirs if not used?]
I wasn't talking about elderly people with advanced dementia; that is indeed impossible for the typical family to deal with, and the sort of thing that government should help with--albeit through a different mechanism than the one that is employed today.
But the great majority of the feeble elderly I've seen over the years, the ones who require home care or a nursing home, are not that sick. They're too old to get in the bathtub unassisted, do the pots and pans, mop the floor, change a light bulb. That's the sort of thing a family can do, and traditionally did.
[And I believe that any region that makes itself uncompetitive through taxation is just hurting its own citizens, because that's a zero sum game--it takes real economic activity to boost the fortunes of people in an area, not a British Disease shell game.]
As I've said before, state and local tax burdens have rather little to do with a particular location's competitiveness. Other things being equal, a low-tax city will obviously be more attractive to businesses than a high-tax city - but things are seldom equal. Salary levels are by far the most important factors.
[I think the only reason Kock "saved" this city was just getting elected, thus removng the incompetant Abe Beame. As for actually doing anything, I don't know.]
Well, at least he was competent.
I suspect that Abe Beame would have coasted through as a non-memorable mayor had it not been for the fiscal crisis.
If there's a true villain here, I'd say it was the well meaning John Lindsay. But would he have had support if he'd been tougher?
If there's a true villain here, I'd say it was the well meaning John Lindsay. But would he have had support if he'd been tougher?
For one thing Lindsay came into office with his "Young Turks" claiming that he was going to be the toughest, reformist mayor the city had ever seen.
He wasn't going to have cozy deals with labor, as he accused Wagner of, but was going to cut the Unions down to size. His first victim was to be the TWU. However, Mike Quill (even in death) cut Lindsay down to size.
After that, every time any group in the City asked for more money, Lindsay said the City didn't have it. The group said "find it" and the City always did. This was the proximate cause of the near bankruptcy.
As to having support. By his second election in 1969, he didn't have any to speak of, because the Republicans' Marchi and the Democrats' Procacino split the vote, allowing Lindsay to slip in on the Liberal line, running on a campaign of pure fear.
[For one thing Lindsay came into office with his "Young Turks" claiming that he was going to be the toughest, reformist mayor the city had ever seen.
He wasn't going to have cozy deals with labor, as he accused Wagner of, but was going to cut the Unions down to size. His first victim was to be the TWU. However, Mike Quill (even in death) cut Lindsay down to size.
After that, every time any group in the City asked for more money, Lindsay said the City didn't have it. The group said "find it" and the City always did. This was the proximate cause of the near bankruptcy.]
Basically.
[As to having support. By his second election in 1969, he didn't have any to speak of, because the Republicans' Marchi and the Democrats' Procacino split the vote, allowing Lindsay to slip in on the Liberal line, running on a campaign of pure fear.]
They were both weak candidates, as I recall--they came across as extremists--but that may have been because many in the public hadn't yet grasped the direness of the situation.
[Lindsay's 1969 opponents] were both weak candidates, as I recall--they came across as extremists--but that may have been because many in the public hadn't yet grasped the direness of the situation.
All the alternatives looked so bad in 1969, that ultimately people went with the known quantity--Lindsay. He campaigned on the fact that NYC didn't burn down during his first term, while Newark, Baltimore and others did.
In his second term, he kept handing out the City's money with both fists partly because he had cried "wolf" too long--he said the city was broke, then came up with cash so many times that when it was broke, noone believed him.
Still, Lindsay was reelected with a clear minority of the vote cast.
[All the alternatives looked so bad in 1969, that ultimately people went with the known quantity--Lindsay. He campaigned on the fact that NYC didn't burn down during his first term, while Newark, Baltimore and others did.
In his second term, he kept handing out the City's money with both fists partly because he had cried "wolf" too long--he said the city was broke, then came up with cash so many times that when it was broke, noone believed him.
Still, Lindsay was reelected with a clear minority of the vote cast.]
Not the first time that sort of thing has happened, and a good argument for proportional ballots.
I've always thought that the one bright spot in Lindsay's tenure was that he *did* stave off the riots, walking the streets of Harlem at a time when that was dangerous, letting people know he cared. And during the sanitation strike he did try to hang firm, but Rockefeller intervened illegally to impose a settlement.
[All the alternatives looked so bad in 1969, that ultimately people went with the known quantity--Lindsay. He campaigned on the fact that NYC didn't burn down during his first term, while Newark, Baltimore and others did.]
Of course, NYC *did* burn down in 1977, following the blackout, but by then Lindsay was out of office.
Of course, NYC *did* burn down in 1977, following the blackout, but by then Lindsay was out of office
That was a real kick in the teeth to New Yorkers, as it shattered the self image of NYers all pulling together during a crisis, as in the '65 blackout.
But the destruction was nothing like what a lot of cities experienced during the '60s. I remember riding into Baltimore from the west years after the worst riots--a huge swath of utter devastation.
On the History Channel's series "Wrath of God: Blackouts" they showed the devestation that came from the 77 outage. I had heard about the rioting and looting, and as a 5 yo, I remember having no electricity, but I never realized just how BAD it got. They showed parts of Bushwick and Bed-Stuy that literally had entire blocks burned to the ground. Now I understand why Bed-Stuy looked like London after the blitz as I rode the J train through it when I was younger (late 70's-early 80's).
Only within the last 5-7 years have these neighborhoods recovered. But there are still entire blocks of empty lots that used to have buildings.
"Only within the last 5-7 years have these neighborhoods recovered. But there are still entire blocks of empty lots that used to have buildings."
What a perfect time to build a highway from the Williamsburg Bridge to JFK Airport.
If Vallone runs for mayor in 2001 and one of his opponents is smart enough to put this issue into play, it could get interesting. Would Peter back up his Astoria consituients and risk alieniating way more people around the rest of the city, or would he take a chance that it wouldn't be a "wedge issue" outside of Astoria and go on TV and into print stating his opposition? Or come up with an alternative plan that wouldn't affect Astoria, but would inconcienence other people (like a spur off the 7 along Grand Central Parkway) and one he knew would die a quiet death in 2002?
(Would Vallone oppose the Astoria Line extension if running for Mayor).
An elevated extension would negatively impact those living on two blocks north of Ditmars. I can only hope he is posturing in order to negotiate some form of negotiation or buyout for those affected. Otherwise, he's an idiot.
[If the N were extended to the airport, you'd have Astoria and airport riders together, justifying 4-6 more trains per hour off peak and on. And, as the city's "front-door" service, the N would get the best trains, the best maintenence the most extensive police, everything the best.
When a public hearing was held, not only did people show up to demand that the N not be extended beyond Ditmars, they wanted to get rid of the el they already have. City can't afford a subway? Fine -- get rid of the el anyway!]
Duuuh! Maybe if anyone with an I.Q. score over 85 actually lived in Astoria, they'd have a more reasonable attitude. Astoria may not be a bad area as these things go, but it's hardly Beverly Hills, and I'm sure its property values won't keep rising next time the economy slips a bit. Allowing the airport extension would be an easy way to ensure and increase the area's prosperity at no cost to its residents. But of course, they're too ignorant to realize that. Schmucks.
All I know, people who don't use this line everyday don't understand the amount of stress involve when you have to ride an extremely crowded train.
Again, the only solution is to cut back the R (they have the alternative, the G), then turn some N trains at 14th Street.
N Broadway Line
Everybody who rides the B, D, Q, E, F, R, and the East side IRT suffer more than anyone from Astoria riding the N. Let's get some perspective here. It takes 12 minutes to get from Astoria to Lexington Ave. It takes 14 minutes to get from Astoria to Grand Central (with a change to the 7 at Queensboro Plza.). It takes D and Q trains 20 minutes just to get from Dekalb to W4St. during the rush hour.
Those of you who regularly use the 4/5/6 to commute into Manhattan can aptly describe your horror as well.
[Those of you who regularly use the 4/5/6 to commute into Manhattan can aptly describe your horror as well.]
The Lexington Avenue is a horror. In some of these cases it's not even an issue of comfort, but violations of basic safety--platforms that are so overcrowded that somebody will eventually be pushed in front of a train.
Everybody who rides the B, D, Q, E, F, R, and the
East side IRT suffer more than anyone from Astoria
riding the N. Let's get some perspective here. It
takes 12 minutes to get from Astoria to Lexington
Ave. It takes 14 minutes to get from Astoria to
Grand Central (with a change to the 7 at Queensboro
Plza.). It takes D and Q trains 20 minutes just to
get from Dekalb to W4St. during the rush hour.
Those of you who regularly use the 4/5/6 to commute
into Manhattan can aptly describe your horror as
well.
[Everybody who rides the B, D, Q, E, F, R, and the
East side IRT suffer more than anyone from Astoria
riding the N. Let's get some perspective here. It
takes 12 minutes to get from Astoria to Lexington
Ave. It takes 14 minutes to get from Astoria to
Grand Central (with a change to the 7 at Queensboro
Plza.). It takes D and Q trains 20 minutes just to
get from Dekalb to W4St. during the rush hour.
Those of you who regularly use the 4/5/6 to commute
into Manhattan can aptly describe your horror as
well.]
Man, you haven't had the Lexington Avenue as your main line. Talk about horrors!
Sorry--while I agree that the N has become inexcusably sluggish, I lived on the East Side for many years and the Lexington Avenue was a true horror. The overcrowding on the 7th Avenue and the crosstown E, F are probably second in terms of hazardous overcrowding, but at least the lines function, unlike the Lexington Avenue which is so far beyond capacity that it suffers constant delays.
This goes way beyond inconvenience--there are places in these lines that are a frank safety hazard, because someday people are going to be pushed onto the tracks.
I don't even agree that the N is "inexcusably" sluggish. Could it use more service? Yes. But that could be said of a lot of other lines as well.
Perhaps if they stopped blocking the extension to Laguardia, then the Astoria line would gain more importance. Until then, Astoria residents can't whine about the city ignoring their needs when they themselves ignore the city's need for rail access to our airports.
[I don't even agree that the N is "inexcusably" sluggish.]
That's at the downtown/Brooklyn end--so is the R.
[Perhaps if they stopped blocking the extension to Laguardia, then the Astoria line would gain more importance. Until then, Astoria residents can't whine about the city ignoring their needs when they themselves ignore the city's need for rail access to our airports.]
I think LGA should tie into the Amtrak line, anyway. What we really need is one stop service between GCT/Penn/a downtown station and the airports.
The most reasonable way to do that would be to build a modern extension to the N that would allow the tracks to do double duty. What are we talking about, 1-1/2 miles? That's only a few hundred million as a *subway*--no el to ruin a street, and construction cost could be shared by the MTA and the airport.
As to the sevice issue--one word, automation. Two minute headway at off peak hours. "Trains" made of individual cars that change length dynamically to avoid excessive wear and energy costs. Meawhile, why do I always hear this stuff about the MTA not having enough cars? Seems to me they're always retiring old ones. How much would it take to mothball the most recently retired model?
The Astoria line only carries one-sixth the number of pasasangers that the Queens Blvd. line does. The reason that the R appears underused is because it has more trains assigned to it during rush hours, and that the people riding it almost always use it for one purpose: to get to 59th/Lexington. Most other destinations in Manhattan are more quickly accessed by the E and F. N passangers have no choice other than the 7.
"N passangers have no choice other than the 7."
No ChrisR, it is the other way around. The N is the choice for 7 riders entering Manhattan. Notice, the first stop is in Manhattan. These dummies (7 riders) rather stuff themselves in an already crowded line than to endure a few exta stops.
"The reason that the R appears underused is because it has more trains assigned to it during rush hours, and that the people riding it almost always use it for one purpose: to get to 59th/Lexington Avenue."
The "Queens Corridor Study" already stated the reason why the R line is underused. IT'S SLOWER!!!!! And, as for 59th Street station being a transfer point for the R riders, that does not compare to the E/F 51st Street connection. In other words, the E/F transfer is more popular than the R line for reason I just outlined.
Sometimes I wish they get rid of the R line and replace it with the F. That way they can run more N trains.
N Broadway Line
Two things:
The R line is not underused. It's more heavily used than the N. Anything you might have that says otherwise is dead wrong.
The Lexington/59th transfer is used by more Queens Blvd. riders than the E/F connection at 51st. The layout of the transfer, and long escalators have made using the R more palatable. You can also get express trains at 59th, not just slow locals at 51st. The Lexington/53rd. station seems to handle more passangers only because it has limited exits and is located right underneath the CityCorp building.
Here's an idea: Have all N trains skip Queensboro Plaza during the peak rush. Let the & riders suffer their way into Manhattan via the "long route".
I'm very interested in who authored this study you keep quoting. I'm curious as to the agenda the authors have, since it makes blatantly incorrect assumptions.
[On this website there's a report about each line and how they are affected by crowds. The E/F are on the top, while the N and 7 are very close behind. ]
Searched through this website, but didn't find it.
I'd be glad if s.o. could post the URL.
Thanks a lot :)
THANK YOU MRLYLE!
CHRISR,
I WILL FIGHT ANY IMPROVEMENTS ON THE R LINE UNLESS THE N IS INCLUDED.
N BROADWAY LINE
Thank you. That's a perfectly good example of how rampant NIMBYism kills progress. I'm not gonna benefit from this idea, so why should anyone else. Jeez ...
Any "R" train terminating at Whitehall should be signed up as "W", not "R", if possible although I would love to see an "EE" for old times sake.
Wayne
Isn't the "W" route reserved for the Astoria, not Queens Blvd. line? That's what the roll signs on the R32/38 say.
The R-44/46 electronic signs have it as Queens Blvd. service also. It can go to any BMT line and terminal accessible to the Broadway line.
Any route can be programmed into those signs. But the mechanical rollsigns have only Astoria "W" service, meaning that the TA was only seriously considering it running from Ditmars Blvd.
I guess at the time the signs came out, that was their thinking. But on the electronic signs, they expanded it, since there is much more "space" in a data bank than there is on a physical roller curtain
That's another reason electronic is better.
An EE of R-16s, right?
I hope not
To be more in tune with the period of the EE (the late 60s, early-mid 70s)it would have to be an out-of-service EE of R-16s, rocking back and forth with its horn blaring as it passes you going through the station on the way to the Jamaica shop.
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of an EE of shiny, new R40M's, with the big Orange sign and their Brake Test numbers on.
Unfortunately, most of the "EE"s were R-6 and R-7s (initially), then R-16s afterwards.
Wayne
"Actually, that could be done now. Many many months ago I suggested in here that the TA double the number of R trains that
run during a typical weekday. Instead of 10 minute headways during the midday hours, run them at 5 minute headways,
terminating alternate R trains at Whitehall St. Cut back the G to Court Sq 24/7 right now (don't wait for the 63rd. St.
connection to open). You'd double the amount of Manhattan bound local service in Queens and you'd increase service on the
Broadway line by 33% (at least north of Whitehall). This would provide the Bway BMT with the same number of trains that
serve the 6th Ave. express:"
THIS IS NOT FAIR!!!!!!! THE N IS THREE TIMES AS CROWDED!!!!!!
N BROADWAY LINE
Coming in from Queens? I don't think so. The R carries more people during the rush than does the N. N trains on six-minute headways coming from Astoria is perfectly adequate.
2 problems: The TA doesn't have enough cars to do this, plus the N riders will scream about "all those R trains." As it is, an R rider will claim there are more N trains, and the N riders claim there are more R trains.
Reducing the G fleet in half and limiting their trains to 4 cars, plus cutting F service slightly would create more cars to do this, but I'm not sure if that's enough. As for N riders, who cares? This plan has nothing to do with them, and as long as N service remains intact, they shouldn't even be worrying about it.
"As for N riders, who cares? This plan has nothing to do with them, and as long as N service remains intact, they shouldn't even be worrying about it."
Shut Up!
N Rider
So basically you admit defeat by ChrisR in your argument?
The "N" is the Sea Beach and as you can tell from my name above I am always concerned when any change even hints at a change on my line. It's bad enough that the Sea Beach can't traverse over the Manhattan Bridge until God knows when, and that the stations in Brooklyn look like a leftover of World War II, but it seems that whenever there is a major change in routes or the opening of new connections it seems the Sea Beach (Broadway Express) gets it in the shorts. So for you Mr. N. keep it up and keep us informed out here if the TA plans any more shafting of my favorite line. And by the way, since the Brighton Line has been refurbished with new stations and new coats of paints, let's see some of that on the Sea Beach line as well. It's long overdue.
The 2000-2004 Capital Plan has plans for "minor rehabs" to 4 Brighton Line stations (mostly the concrete flooring). I think the major rehabs are coming in the following Plan.
I didn't recall seeing anything for any of the stations in the Sea Beach open-cut in Brooklyn.
They need more than just cosmetic work though. The concrete is peeling because (if I'm paraphrasing correctly what I heard on a tour of that line a year ago) it was an inferior type that was used which is not well-suited to ocean breezes. Seems that the salt air, even a distance from the beach, is part of the reason why the concrete is chipping. The Brighton Line suffers from it too, but not as extensively.
--Mark
They need more than just cosmetic work though. The concrete is peeling because (if I'm paraphrasing correctly what I heard on a tour of that line a year ago) it was an inferior type that was used which is not well-suited to ocean breezes. Seems that the salt air, even a distance from the beach, is part of the reason why the concrete is chipping. The Brighton Line suffers from it too, but not as extensively.
Inferior concrete? I think it held up quite well for 85 years. Salt will eat away at anything.
I thought that they just rehabed the Brighton Stations a few years ago. I think in 95 or 96
Mostly the station canopies, I think. Some of the station entrances and stairwells, too, but not much done to the flooring. Ave J (Manhattan-bound) still has a noticible dip in part of the platform.
--Mark
I think respective to other lines and even the concrete used in the open cut sections, it is "inferior". Church Ave on the Brighton Line suffered this same type of problem for a while, too. Most of the concrete beams have either been constantly repainted or surrounded with metal now.
--Mark
I've been told that the concrete used there was believed to be better at the time it was poured than what had been available before, but in actuality was worse - the folks who concocted the mixture made a couple of erroneous assumptions about the reaction of the ingredients in the aggregate. I'm no chemist, but it was something on the order of "if some of this ingredient is good then more is better", which turned out not to be the case.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Being that I live in the Astoria area, we really don't have any other alternative. Yes, I can take a bus to the G/R or Q train stations, but that's to much extra time.
What I suggest to the TA is to cut the running time on the R train to 7 minutes during rush hours and 10 minutes midday. On the other hand, increase the N's running time to 4 minutes during rush hours and 8 minutes other times. As for the M line, 10 minutes will be good for that line. Not too many people ride it.
ChrisR,
I'm really sorry for my vigor behavior, however, sometimes you take it too far. I have to deal with an extremely over crowded train every morning. A lot of times I'm telling people to say excuse me, or can you watch wear your stepping. It's really frustrating.
The R isn't as bad because the line share the same tracks with the G. That isn't the case with the N. People have alternatives, we don't. And for some reason, when an alternative is available (Queensboro Plaza), most of the 7's people get on our train; making it even more crowded.
Your practically on top of people. That along is too much for me, especially some of the F who don't believe in taking baths everyday.
By the way, thanks for the support SeaBeach.
N Broadway Line
Astoria Division
I know the N is crowded. But the Manhattan Bridge problems limit the amount of service you can run along that line.
And to be quite honest, the R train in Queens is more important than the N train. It carries more riders. I know that sucks if your an N rider, but it's true.
If I had my way, I'd add a few more "N" fill-ins during the rush hours, turning them around at 34th St.
It was not bogus. I can't tell you how many time during that period I had to wait at Union Tpke. going home for between 10 to 15 minutes to wait for an R to go one stop to Van Wyke Blvd. Sure, it didn't occur every day, but at least two time each week. Perhaps it was due to delays in Brooklyn or Manhattan, I don't know. If the service had been better, there would not have been such an outcry about it.
I agree R service is most unreliable, but people cried about 15 minute delays almost every day, something which is impossible. That's why I wouldn't restore F express service unless there were at least 2 lines running local to 179th (like the R and the new 63rd. St. train I layed out in another post).
could somebody tell me where this thread starts?
It only takes about 30 seconds longer to terminate the train at 71st than to close it up an any other stop. Going in that direction, the train is usually almost empty by the time it gets to 71st. Most passangers get on at Roosevelt and get off somewhere in between. I don't believe that too many passengers get on at the local stops in the morning to go into Jamaica. Some do but not that many.
As for the Q and the R interchanging at 71st going towards Manhattan, I have seen both R and G trains pull in and leave in less than 30 seconds, so I don't see it causing a big delay. No worse than when the F sits at 75th Avenue waiting for an E to clear.
"The F will stay express in Queens and the Q will go local to avoid having to have the F crossover to the local track at Queens Plaza and cause potential delays on the N line.
Not on sixth avenue.
N Broadway Line
Sorry. I meant the R.
Also, if an E express was coming in from Roosevelt to QP and an F local had just left 36th St. inbound, one of those trains would have to wait outside QP for the other to enter, creating a potential delay in the AM rush.
Where did you get you information? The word here has been that no final decision has been made on service patterns.
No plan has been decided on yet. This is mere speculation. What that person said was probably the most logical service plan out there. But nothing is definate.
I too have heard from my TA friends that no plan has been finalized. One interesting thing they've said, however, is that if the physical connection is ready before they have enough cars to begin regular service, the 63rd street connection may be used for temporary (G.O.) or emergency reroutes on an as-needed basis.
My comment was based on the track configuration and what would cause the fewest delays. The design is most efficient if the 53rd St. tunnel handles the Queens express trains, becuase that avoids having a crossover east of Queens Plaza.
But the MTA has done stranger things in the past, so we'll just have to see what happed two years from now.
This has been discussed ad nauseum. I personally have taken a wait-and-see approach, although I have heard the same proposal you have.
There has been absolutley NO definate plans as to how the new 63rd. St. connection will be serviced. There have been many speculations, but no definate decision. Some have suggested a new 6th Ave. local (V) that runs from Jamaica, via local, through 63rd. st and on down to Church Ave. If the Manhattan Bridge doesn't close, then the Q might be extended past Queensbridge. Nothing is set.
A few things can be said to be a sure bet, even though the decisions on service patterns have yet to be made:
The new 63rd. St. line will run local in Queens. That's a pretty sure bet.
The F will remain as an express.
The G will be permanently cut back to Court Square 24 hours a day.
Anything else is mere speculation.
The service plan I saw is not definite--I never said it was. The TA might not even use the V designation for any service. I agree that the F running local from 179 to Stillwell is a crime!! But that's what I am afraid they are leaning toward. The Q should be the Queens Local. After all it will remain the 6 Avenue & Brighton Express, which should be the D's designation, but that's a debate for another day.
About the only thing we can be sure of is the 63rd St. tunnel being open five years from now is a better bet than the Manhattan Bridge being open five years from now.
That said, the future alignment of the Queens routes could be two lines running via Broadway, with one going to Whitehall and the other through the Montague St. tunnel for all we know.
There is no service plan. Nothing has been decided on by anyone in any official capacity. Any talk of service plans for this connection is mere speculation. This must be one of the most often discussed topics on SubTalk, save for the Manhattan Bridge fiasco.
Agreed, let s just wait and see what happens.there are so many ways for this to happen
"After all it will remain the 6 Avenue & Brighton Express, which should be the D's designation, but that's a debate for another day."
The Q should not remain the 6th Avenue and the Brighton Express. It should operate local all stops. Meanwhile, the D should become the Brighton Express while the F should remain the express in Queens.
N Broadway Line
Why? Having the Q as the Brighton exp. simplifies thing immensly, as the local is ALWAYS the D and the Q is always the express. You don't have to check your watch to see if the D you're on will be local or express.
Besides, the Q designation has almost always been used to denote the Brighton exp., from 1960-67, and 1988-present.
I don't think an extension of the IND was the reason why the lower level was built, though I have the legend you describe and the accompanying story that there's an incomplete tunnel under Ft Washington Avenue that would have been the IND's connection to the GW.
BTW, the lower level of the GW ha sometimes been givem the nickname "Martha" ....
--Mark
I know Baltimore is going to add double-tracking in many places, but I haven't heard anything about residents asking for stations at Ruxton and Riderwood. (I think those stations were in the original plans but were dropped because of community opposition.) Have there been any reports about this in the Baltimore papers? Any links available?
They sure did! They obliterated the west wall of the existing IND, poured a new track bed, put in a new track, then poured themselves a brand new wall to close off the open tunnel.
Wayne
Is there any provision in this configuration for the old Rockaway super-express line--i.e., a way to extend the tunnel tracks straight under the junction with the IND toward Sunnyside and the LIRR ROW, should money ever come raining down from heaven?
I believe that the construction includes what they call a "bellmouth", which is a wye that heads off from the IND connection toward Sunnyside Yards and deadends at the edge of the yards. This was in the Draft Environmental Statement, anyway, when I read it several years ago.
Part of the actual 63rd Street Connector construction was building a huge subsurface retaining wall around Sunnyside Yards, to prevent further migration of plumes of bad pollutants (presumably PCBs and the like) from under the yards into the connector area. You'd have to breach this to build the Super-Express.
Don't hold your breath. But yes, I think there's a wye toward the yards.
I would assume that the V train would be a local. The B and D would run express, and the plan is to send V trains to Church Ave. and restore express on the IND line in Brooklyn.
In another post, I stated that I walk the tunnel from 63rd Street Lexington Avenue to 57th Street 7th Avenue. What I found was a crossover between 6th Avenue and 7th Avenue. And behind the wall was a full station platform with a layup N train.
What everyone sees, or apprears at the Lexington Avenue Station platform is really a double track platform for northbound trains on the top level and South Bound trains on the bottom level. The train coming out of seventh Avenue goes straight to the non used platform, while the sixth avenue trains (in service) goes directly to the used platform. In order for the seventh Avenue train to use the used platform, it must use the crossover track that leads to it.
I did not know this before I walk these tunnels.
I don't know who was fighting me about the Q not going to Queens but to upper Manhattan was absolutely right. I reluctantly overlooked this because I did not really know about the layout.
Other important facts.
The 57th Sixth Avenue station is only serve by one subway line which means, the likelihood of favoring the Broadway line (the 7th Avenue 57th Street station is already served by two other lines (N/R)) doesn't make sense.
---------------
Now that we know the Q will be the new line serving second avenue, what line will be serving the 63rd connection into Queens Blvd? As you all know, the B is designated for 168th Street (unless they are going to create a second B like before), the D is designated for the Bronx, and the F uses the 53rd Street tunnel.
As I see it, only the F is a good candidate for the 63rd route. Will the E soon be the only express line on this route? Also, can it handel the crowds the way both trains do now? And lastly, will the E running on a 2 minute headway (during rush) affect the service on the C line if the MTA decides to implement this plan?
Thank you all for your comments.
N Broadway Line
Your Yellow is very hard to read on a white backround
Your Yellow is very hard to read on a white backround
I agree. Use gold in your HTML instead. Its darker and more readable.
Thanks BMT,
N Broadway Line
Old Color
N Broadway Line
To: E 8Av Express Local, Is this better, with the yellow letters in a black table?? Us WebTV people HAVE to be good at HTML since we don't have computers, so we can never use ANY program!!! We have to do it ourselves!!!
Don't you need a Java compiler to make Java applets?
Don't you need a Java compiler to make Java applets?
Sure do, but all you need is notepad to configure existing ones to suit your needs.
So did you make this applet or did you get it somewhere? I read the example.led script.
So did you make this applet or did you get it somewhere? I read the example.led script.
If you read the script, then you know that I didn't make the applet. LED Sign is in the public domain. I don't remember where I downloaded it from, but you can download the original zip file HERE if you want to play with it.
much better, maybe one shade darker
I still think this gold should be used on both maps and signs, with white letter, instead of making it orangey.
Perhaps Mr. N train is not the only one who needs to adopt a new color scheme. They TA should make the yellow on the map a little darker, and do the same for the orange if the two are getting too close.
Gold? If you are familiar with the state of the stations on the 4th Avenue line in Brooklyn, perhaps you'd agree that gold would be cause for derision.
How's this, Bob?
May High School Color Combo. I have to figure how to do it when I use this mode and e mail
Not really. The F runs alone in Brooklyn, yet is almost as crowded as the F in Queens. Queens passangers have other options (E/R).
Actually, 75 footers probably could run on the K now, if it went to Eastern Pkwy or Canarsie. The problem curve near Marcy was rebuilt and eased, and the rest of the way would be for the most part straight. Still, you would need shorter that 600ft trains, so they will probably never try the K in rush hours again. (It would be better for weekends, though, especially during bridge closures where it could provide the service on 63rd St.)
So, basically, it comes down to this: What East River BMT/IND crossings (below the Williamsburg) have capacity, and how much for each? The Cranberry tunnels could always be used for some F service, and the Montague tunnels could always be used for some BDQ service, and there's still the Rutgers...
How many trains can fit on a single two-track line, per hour? And are the numbers in the FAQ (trains per line) still accurate?
[So, basically, it comes down to this: What East River BMT/IND crossings (below the Williamsburg) have capacity, and how much for each? The Cranberry tunnels could always be used for some F service, and the Montague tunnels could always be used for some BDQ service, and there's still the Rutgers...]
As far as I know ... Rutgers has a decent amount of available capacity, while Montague has very little and Cranberry none.
"Cranberry"
Who uses Cranberry?
N Broadway Line
The A and C trains.
subfan
Why is the tunnel called Cranberry? I thought it was the Fulton Street tunnel.
[Why is the tunnel called Cranberry? I thought it was the Fulton Street tunnel.]
Most of the tunnels between Manhattan and Brooklyn are known by the names of the streets they underlie on the Brooklyn side. They are Cranberry and Montague (BMT/IND), Clark and Joralemon (IRT). The one exception is the tunnel used by the F train, which is called Rutgers after the street it underlies on the Manhattan side.
One might add that the 14th Street, 60th Street, 63rd St and Lexington tunnels are based on the street on the Manhattan Side. Is it 161st Street on both sides of the tunnel? And what is that #2 train tunnel called?
The #2 tunnel is the Clark Street Tunnel. The 42nd St. Tunnel is the Steinway Tunnel. The Lexington Tunnel you refer to, is that the E & F trains? If so, its the 53rd St. Tunnel.
Why the tunnels use the Brooklyn Street names is beyond me. The A & C may be the Cranberry Tunnel, but I think Fulton Tunnel is much easier to remember.
And your right, the 14th Street Tunnel also connects Manhattan with Brooklyn, and gets the Manahattan Street name, same as the Rutgers.
The #2 tunnel is the Clark Street Tunnel.
I bet Larry was asking what the tunnel at the OTHER end of the # 2 train is called ... the one that passes from Harlem after the 135th St. station to connect to the Hub in the Bronx.
And even if he didn't mean that ... I'd like to know if it has a name.
It is the 149 Street Tunnel built of two cast iron tubes in concrete. At its deepest it is 50 feet below Mean High Water and the tubes are 650 feet between shafts. It opened on July 10,1905.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Maybe they were given from the name of the street they started building from, some from Man, others from BK and Queens.
All tunnels were built from each end and were linked in the middle.
It has room for one of the 3 lines that now uses the bridge. It cannot take all 3 or even 2.
Everyone's forgetting that the policy has been not to send the B&D anywhere south of 34th during closings, so all you would have to deal with is the F and the Q (—if Rutgers is connected), or whatever replaces the Q (most likely the V). In either case, both services would be 15 tph each.
What they also plan to do (if Rutgers not built) is send the E to the Rockaways, the A local to Euclid, and the C to WTC. This would actually open up space in WTC for additional 6th Av. local trains, but they never mentioned anything like that in the plans. The B & D always go to 34th.
Actually, B gets cut back to Pacific Street or 36th Street when the bridge is closed.
Dont be surised if the N was cut back to Pacific should the bridge have to close completely. More passangers use the West End line.
Dont be surpised if the N was cut back to Pacific should the bridge have to close completely. More passangers use the West End line
Nothing that the TA does surprises me anymore. If the N is cut back to a Pacific-Stillwell run, I guess that would free up the Montague St. Tunnel to take maybe a T-Train on the West End? They'd probably still designate it "B". Yeah! Have Q and T running through Montague and have D and F running through Rutgers. That would probably solve the bottleneck problems.
Being that they did make provisions on the new Franklin Shuttle for double tracking to Fulton and extension of the platforms (albeit with some work) , you increase the Shuttle to 30 tph., shunting many Brighton riders to Fulton St (as well as the IRT), reduce the Q, (so Brighton riders would still have their access to all 3 divisions)and then you would have more room in the Montague tunnel to squeeze in West End service.
Rather than try to make some kind of DeKalb-Rutgers connection, when they were re-building the shuttle, they should have dropped the Fulton St. end down below grade (possibly into a tunnel) to facilitate a future direct through trackage connection to the Fulton Street A and C lines - kind of like the original Franklin-Fulton El connection. Yes, a connection would be expensive, especially considering all the track underpinning necessary to avoid grade crossings, but once they were already completely rebuilding the shuttle, they could have at least put its end underground to make this a one-day, future-type possibility.
subfan
A Fulton St connection was one of the East River Crossings alternatives, but it was ruled out early on as too disruptive to the community as well as expensive. It could not make that sharp turn from Franklin to Fulton, so the entire line north of Park Pl would have to be realigned to the west, cutting through much property (It would all be below ground).
Grand Street could also be used as a terminal for the upcoming 63rd St connection if the Manhattan Bridge were to close. There'd be no need for a special shuttle if you ran, say, a V train from 179th St/Jamaica to Grand St.
--Mark
The only problem is that their is no crossover switch north of Grand, and there isn't room to build one, as the 2 tracks seperate sharply just north of the station.
There is room to the south of Grand St.
why is everyone talking about a "V" Line when the H,K, & T are available again. I know that there were pictures of a V, but only pictures. It would make sense to use lower letters first
What color is the T? What picture of a V?
I saw a picture of a V in a Magazine a few years back, it was in black and white. The T was the old West End, so probably thge color of the Broadway
V is orange, T is only on R-32/38 signs, in black & white. (They need to get new signs with a yellow T for the R-68's, so they can use this letter instead of the B when bridge service closes.)
I don't think they will use the letter T to denote the West End/Bway service when the 6th Ave. side closes. Probably they will use 2 B's like in 86-88.
Yes, V is orange.
Wayne
Dear Bob,
"why is everyone talking about a "V" Line when the H,K, & T are available again. I know that there were pictures of a V, but
only pictures. It would make sense to use lower letters first"
I agree with the above. H will be the most perferable because it is designated as IND and follow a sequence (B, D, F, H (2,4,6,8) A, C, E (1,3,5)). On the other hand, the K (11) can be retain for the BMT Nassau Street Lines replacing the Z (26). A great match for the J (10) , L (12) and M (13).
Broadway Lines: N (14) Q (17) R (18)
2nd Avenue Lines: P (16) T (20)
Crosstown Lines: This might need to be change in the future (G)
Notice, Smaller Letters tend to be the express, while Larger Letters tend to be the Local.
For example, Queens Blvd E/F are express while G/F are local. On the Sixth Avenue lines, the B/D (I don't know where the Q came from) are express and the F is local. 8th Avenue Lines, A is express, while C and E are locals. The N/Q use to be express on Broadway, while the R was the Local. The Brighton Line were also done like this. The M/Q were locals, while the D was the express. The same M is the local via Nassau Street Lines, while the J (I don't know where the Z came from) is express.
N Broadway Line
The problem is that the K and H letters were in use fairly recently and could cause confusion.
Why confusion, it has been a couple years hasn t it since H and K were used. The D and F Change in 54 and 67 did not confuse people.
The Q came from later in the Alphabet. After the IND went to H, I would not show up, so they just continued with J-K-L-M-N-Q-R-T leaving out o looks live zero P to confusing at a distance S-Special. It seems they gave the eastern division higher letters as each set of trains came in. Eastern already had the R 16s so they were changed first. That is what I am assuming
I used the "V" train in a hypothetical sense. You may assign any letter you like.
--Mark
I have a great idea. Rebuild the Manhattan bridge and charge tolls for vehicular traffic. This way the City gets a new bridge that's paid for!
Is there any way to replace the metal parts that are being stressed/fatigued with bearings that would allow them to bend in a controlled manner? Bridges have expansion joints in order to avoid thermal stress, tall buildings are built to sway in the wind, why not joints on the bridge structure (ball-and-socket type?) that will absorb the flexing caused by trains by letting the structure bend?
A properly designed bridge is built so that parts that can flex are placed where the forces encountered in use will tend to cause flexing in the structure. As we know, discussion of properly designed bridges has nothing to do with the MB, except by way of comparison.
The question is: having designed the bridge without the necessary joints, can the bridge be retrofitted?
Is there a civil engineer in the house?
The civil engineers seem to say yes, if you just pay me $100 million more. And yes again, if you just pay me $100 million more. Is there any other 100 year old suspension bridge in the country that has 4,000 trains per week passing over it?
I just can't believe how relatively little press the Manhattan Bridge Fiasco has gotten over this past decade and a half, considering how many people it affects. I wonder how many current subway riders from Manhattan to Brooklyn even know that it used to be just one one stop from Canal St. on the BMT Broadway line to Dekalb Ave. in Brooklyn and that the express tracks on Broadway were ever actually used? Sometimes I think that the "Powers that be" are hoping that, those of us old enough to remember when Brighton, Sea Beach and West End trains used to follow, one right after the other, over the Manhattan Bridge from Canal St., will begin to think that we were just imagining it!
wasn't once considered to tear down the Williamsburg Bridge and rebuild it cause it was in such bad shape? I'm suprised the same wasn't done for the Manhattan Br. Whenever I pass that old bridge it looks worse instead of improving..
If you look closely at the Willie B, you will see that they have been tearing it down -- one section at a time. The Willie B can be seen as having 9 sections: the two auto approaches at each end, the railroad approach at each end, and the Eastbound auto, rail, and Westbound auto parts of the main span. Four of the six approaches have been replaced from scratch. On the main span, the rail part has been scrapped and rebuilt from the main bridge beams up, and substantial (I'm not sure of the details) work has been done on the Eastbound auto part. Not to mention the work that is going on overhead. In short, they are virtually replacing the bridge one piece at a time.
(Threat to relocate to Atlanta or Phoenix if they don't get transit)
Those areas have lower taxes, so the tax threat makes sense. 2nd Avenue or no, our transit is better -- those regions are choking on traffic.
[(Threat to relocate to Atlanta or Phoenix if they don't get transit)
Those areas have lower taxes, so the tax threat makes sense. 2nd Avenue or no, our transit is better -- those regions are choking on traffic.]
Relocation threats don't have to make sense in order to open up the City's checkbook. Conde Nast made some utterly ludicrous off-to-the-Sunbelt threats when they demanded tax breaks for their new tower in Times Square. No one with half a brain seriously thought that the company would try editing _Vogue_ or _Vanity Fair_ out of Denver or Nashville. Didn't matter. The City coughed up the $$$. So, a transit-based relocation threat would work just fine.
Lets think about this. All of us have to pay high taxes, except that whoever the Mayor or Governor (alone without any accountability) decides doesn't have to pay any taxes. Does this sound like an invitation to arbitrary decisions, or worse? You bet it is. My guess is that a lot of these deals are dirty.
The deals are more desperate than dirty. No mayor or governor wants to be responsible for 'losing' a high-profile employer. So the deals get cut. But many lower profile employers in the brokerage and telecommunications industries are moving to places like Jersey City because they can't find or afford decent, modern space in class A buildings in Manhattan.
In the 1950s the Mobil Oil Company supposedly told the city that it wouldn't build it's new HQ at 3rd Ave & 42 St until the 3rd Avenue El came down. The El came down for many reason but the deisre to upgrade 3rd Avenue real estate was the main one. I can't see a major firm taking the opposite stance today - 'We won't build here or locate here until you throw billions of our tax dollars over the next 15 years into this here 2nd Avenue subway'. It just doesn't work that way. You think any executive wants to be in the same room with tax and spend guys like Gene Russianoff and Sheldon Silver? I don't think so.
[In the 1950s the Mobil Oil Company supposedly told the city that it wouldn't build it's new HQ at 3rd Ave & 42 St until the 3rd Avenue El came down. The El came down for many reason but the deisre to upgrade 3rd Avenue real estate was the main one. I can't see a major firm taking the opposite stance today - 'We won't build here or locate here until you throw billions of our tax dollars over the next 15 years into this here 2nd Avenue subway'. It just doesn't work that way.]
It's unfortunate but true that things don't work that way. The reason, as best I can tell, is that businesses can use the Sunbelt Strategy to get direct benefits like huge tax breaks. They've no incentive to seek indirect benefits like transit improvements.
One quibble I have with your post - if a big company did insist on completion of the Second Avenue subway, they'd never accept a 15-year time frame. They would demand - and get - completion in two or three years, tops.
- if a big company did insist on completion of the Second Avenue subway, they'd never accept a 15-year time frame. They would demand - and get - completion in two or three years, tops.
I don't see why it would take 15 years to build a subway line. With the technology that we have today, I don't see why we couldn't have the 2nd Ave. Subway running in 2-3 years. Maybe even 1-2 years.
clearly your vision is not obscured by corruption, criminality, fraud, or'juice.' Consider the following two cases. In the Bay Area we have just celebrated the tenth anniversary of the Loma Prieta 'quake. We are still arguing about 1. what to do with freeway routes in SF, 2. how to re fit the Bay Bridge. And barely 2 years ago the replacement for the east bay freeway wich 'pancaked killing almost all of the victims of the entire quake was finished for $1.2 B OR LA has quake Five freeway segments fail. All are up and running again in six months or less.
The original IRT from City Hall to 145 Street was completed in 1904 after 4.5 years of construction. The 63rd Street Connection from Queensbridge to 36 Street will, when completed in 2001, have taken 7 years to build. This is progress?
[The original IRT from City Hall to 145 Street was completed in 1904 after 4.5 years of construction. The 63rd Street Connection from Queensbridge to 36 Street will, when completed in 2001, have taken 7 years to build. This is progress?]
Government construction of any sort takes an eternity. Not just transit construction. A case in point is the new Baruch College building on Lexington Avenue and 25th Street. It's been under construction for at least two and a half years and still has a long way to go. While it's a big building, about 15 to 20 stories and occupying almost an entire city block, the fact remains that the far bigger Conde Nast building in Times Square was completed in less time.
Business Associations have demanded better transit service, and lower overall taxes, as in the past. But they are weaker than in the past, since "enlightened self interest" doesn't go as far as it did. The louder voices are individual businesses demanding a special deal for themselves. A new subway only helps an individual business a little, even if it helps business in general a lot.
With today's technology, a magazine could be put together thru a server in Jackson Hole, Wyoming by individual editors sited anywhere. HECK, we are using the internet right now.
Yeah, but the editors of Vogue and Vanity Fair would rather DIE than work in Atlanta, Jackson Hole or anywhere other than Manhattan below 96th Street. Printing has already been outsourced to (often non-union) printing plants in the Midwest and Mid-south; subscription services are done mostly in Boulder. So what's left? The business side -- ad salespeople who need to be near their clients the ad agencies, so they gotta be in NYC plus every other city -- and editorial. Conde Nast pretty much couldn't have moved. Peter's right, in the case of Conde Nast anyway. It was a hollow threat.
[With today's technology, a magazine could be put together thru a server in Jackson Hole, Wyoming by individual editors sited anywhere. HECK, we are using the internet right now.]
That's true, of course, but not in all circumstances. I experience something similar at work every day. From an office on lower Fifth Avenue, I edit professional-level online research materials for state taxation in Washington and Wisconsin. Relocating to Madison or Olympia would gain nothing. BUT - what holds true for me wouldn't hold true for fashionable magazines like those that Conde Nast pubblishes. Their writers and editors want to be physically close to the center of things, and in the case of fashion and culture, that's usually New York. And that's why Conde Nast's relocation threat was not serious ... although it worked, of course.
Can we organize?
Can we organize [to get MTA to listen to our ideas]?
Well, sure, assuming we had a leader and could form some kind of consensus to present ideas in a coherent manner.
But, that doesn't mean that MTA would listen.
If you (or any of us) felt personally that we wanted to be activists, the course of least resistence is to join an existing group.
The group that would seem to have the greatest clout is the Straphangers' Campaign of the New York Public Interest Research Group (NYPIRG). They have the advantages of having paid attorneys on staff (meaning they can file lawsuits, which MTA has to listen to, whether they want to or not), they have college-level student volunteers, they're well organized, and they have the ear of The New York Times. See how many times Gene Russianoff is quoted on different transit topics in the Tinmes.
But, even there, probably their biggest "success" was in advocating for the Weekly/Monthly Metrocard passes. But this was something MTA has been wanting to do anyway, as well as offering discounts for buying multiple rides (11 for 10). In fact, Straphangers probably helped grease the wheels for the MTA on this by countering class-based opposition to discounting.
I think Gene even had his picture taken with Gov. Pataki, but if he were to call Pataki tomorrow and say "I and all the members of NYPIRG want you to build the entire Second Avenue Subway now," what do you think Pataki would say? I can think of two distinct possibilities: (1) "Sure, Gene, as soon as NYPIRG loans the State $10 billion at zero interest rate."; (2) "Click."
You might also look at Steve Dobrow's "Committee for Better Transit." They are not as upfront as Straphangers', but have some really good research and ideas.
All that notwithstanding, if the MTA were actually looking to see what ideas were bouncing around, they would have somebody spending a few minutes a day reviewing forums such as this. Do you think they do?
[All that notwithstanding, if the MTA were actually looking to see what ideas were bouncing around, they would have somebody spending a few minutes a day reviewing forums such as this. Do you think they do?]
Does anyone have a feel for the general Internet awareness/usage level at the MTA and its various sub-agencies?
Sure, they all have websites (internally generated, I presume, not jobbed out to agencies?), but could they put together, for example, a program to order MetroCards by mail via the Internet and credit cards? Or is that laughable?
Well, you can order MetroCards online ... not sure who put the site together though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think you have been fooled if you think there is such a thing as an MTA that has independent freedom of action. I'm sure that everyone who works at the MTA is in favor of improving mass transit in every way possible.
But the MTA is controlled by the Governor, period. It's there so the Governor, and everyone else, can be in favor or workers and customers, but against the MTA, with no responsibility for any decisions it makes. Its nonsense.
The Governor's policy is to 1) cut taxes and 2) increase spending on suburban whites that vote Republican while 3) trying to avoid doing so much damage to the city that he kills the Golden Goose. At best, that means improving efficiency here (but not elsewhere in the state). At worst, that means ripping off the workers and cutting where he can.
One way he has done it is to run up the MTA's debt. The MTA may have a "surplus," but it has borrowed like crazy. That's why anything that doesn't happen by 2004 won't happen for another 20 years.
The Governor's policy is to 1) cut taxes and 2) increase spending on suburban whites
Perhaps you can express your relentlessly anti anyone-outisde-NYC feelings without adding race-baiting?
[The Governor's policy is to 1) cut taxes and 2) increase spending on suburban whites that vote Republican while 3) trying to avoid doing so much damage to the city that he kills the Golden Goose.]
Can you really blame him? If he didn't cut taxes, New York's competitive position would plummet and there'd be another wholesale exodus of jobs to other states ... it's happened before and most assuredly could happen again.
As far as the supposed bias in favor of suburban whites is concerned, I don't actually see where that exists. These suburban whites (as well as suburbanites of darker hues) already are being taxed to the hilt for supporting their local governments and, especially, their school systems. Getting some breaks from the state just evens things out a little. And taking things another step, even if Governor Pataki has a pro-suburb, anti-City bias, it's at least partially justified. City voters won't support him, suburban voters frequently will. It's simple human nature to treat your friends better than you treat your enemies.
(Pataki screws NYC because its natural to treat your friends better than hour enemies).
Then what explains the way Democrats treat NYC?
(Pataki screws NYC because its natural to treat your friends better than hour enemies).
Then what explains the way Democrats treat NYC?
Politicians always screw their constituents. They lie to you, so you'll vote for them. Then they kick you where you sit. They do whatever is best for them and their friends, not their constituents.
[(Pataki screws NYC because its natural to treat your friends better than our enemies).
Then what explains the way Democrats treat NYC?]
Democrats don't have to make an effort to treat NYC well because they'll get most votes anyway. In other words, Republicans don't like the city because they get no votes, while Democrats can take it for granted. If there actually were two political parties in the city, both sides would treat it better.
Rudy's a republican There ARE two parties in NYC, THINK and vote your beliefs, Republican or Democrat
The mayor is sort of a political fluke - NYC otherwise remains 100% Democratic, leading to its being left out by both parties.
No, Rudy is not a fluke.
NYC standard politics gets so out-of-hand periodically, that a Reform/Fusion Mayor gets elected, cleans things up to some extent, people get tired of him, then they go back to (relatively cleaned-up)business-as-usual.
It's happened four times is this century alone.
Plus, don't kid yourself--NYC is not ignored--its 40.5% of the State is the tail that wags the dog.
(With 40 percent of the population, NYC is the tail that waggs the dog).
The numbers say otherwise. New York State's policies do reflect the point of view of New York City's politicians, but the rest of the state drives a hard bargain. "We'll go along with all the high cost programs you want, as long as the city pays in more of its share and gets out less of its share." New York City politicians go for it every time. It works the same way at the national level. You wonder why Republicans are so against government spending, since so much of it goes to them.
That's why I fear Hillary. "Sure, we'll agree to universal health care, as long as the state by state funding formula works this way..."
Former Mayor Ed Koch said many times in response to exactly your argument that its untrue. People in NYC pay less than their per capita share into the state coffers, but businesses that pay state taxes pay more.
Those businesses happen to also be located in New York State as well as New York State. The quid pro quo for NYC has been that NYS policies have been to concentrate and encourage business to stay in NYC. This is why you have not seen major successful bids from, say, Long Island or Westchester for City-based businesses as from New Jersey or Connecticut.
I wish New Yorkers could look at some of the truly desperate old manufacturing cities upstate and their struggling school systems that are shut out from the funds they need by New York City's power. Think about that the next time you hear a New Yorker say how compassionate the City is.
[I wish New Yorkers could look at some of the truly desperate old manufacturing cities upstate and their struggling school systems that are shut out from the funds they need by New York City's power. Think about that the next time you hear a New Yorker say how compassionate the City is.]
City residents, especially those from the Upper West Side, *are* the most compassionate people on Earth, but only to a very limited geographic scope. NYC is probably the only place in America where most people would _welcome_ a homeless shelter or drug treatment center to their neighborhood. But this compassion doesn't extend beyond the city limits or indeed beyond Manhattan's limits. To the typical Manhattan resident, Brooklyn Heights or Long Island City is impossibly remote. Those struggling Upstate cities might as well be on Pluto. As a result, the plight of the cities and their inhabitants is simply too remote to interest a Manhattanite.
(Attitudes of Upper West Siders).
I would hesitate to characterize the attitudes of people in any part of the city at this point, so complete has been the turnover in population. If the attitudes of elected officials seem not to change, it is because they are no longer representative, but are merely incumbants entrenched by the political system.
The election of Rudy, and the muted protest as the homeless were swept from the street, represents the attitudes of new residents and compassion fatigue on the part of the old.
More recently, that "stop living off me" attitude is being directed at Upstate and other states. You read and hear this attitute all the time -- read John Tierney's columns in the Times for the most articulate statements. No one is directing people's attention at the real money sponge (ie the health care industry through Medicaid, primarily in the city). But no politician in NYC is going to gain votes advocating helping Upstate, the South, or the poor and homeless here in the city.
The past recession, when the city's economic distress and the whining of its politicians was greeted with sneering elsewhere, and from which the city recovered without any help from anyone, led to a change in attitude that will outlast Rudy. New Yorkers have had the scorn of the rest of the state and nation drubbed into them by politicians and the press, to the point where it may be exaggerated.
Well said; I agree absolutely. And now NYC is getting its revenge.
(I grew up upstate (Rochester), have lived in NYC for 18 years, and now spend weekends upstate (Saugerties). So I see -- and like to think I understand -- both sides.)
NYC is simply more dynamic, faster to respond to business changes (layoffs are a sign of a healthy economic system during a recession, I'm afraid) and still the place where people from around the country and around the world want to come to live and make money. A recent poll in the new media (Internet) industry found that NYC was the number one destination among 20-somethings -- more than the SF Bay Area, whose traffic congestion and housing prices now make Manhattan look positively bucolic.
Ask the millions of European tourists (who tend to have a better built-in appreciation of the importance of large cities to civilization) whether they'd like to live in NYC. Many will say yes, admiringly. Then ask them that of Peekskill or Binghamton or Rochester!
But for NYS residents outside the city and its suburbs, the city remains a convenient target for their fears and frustations about loss of economic base, high taxes, and fear that their areas are simply irrelevant to the progress of America.
Personally I believe that the Sun Belt growth cities -- many of which are based on (a) year-round air conditioning; (b) unsustainable withdrawals from limited fresh-water aquifers; and (c) 100% automobile transport and very low-density land usage -- have designed themselves in a way that may not last. Traffic and no water may kill them, and I suspect that upstate cities in 10 to 25 years may look much more appealing.
The rail-transit model of development, WHEN COMBINED WITH INCREASED DENSITY AROUND STATIONS, makes a lot more sense for long-term urban survival than the car-based model. And now that people are getting over this Internet-driven "everyone will work remotely every day" nonsense, and we understand that taking people to lunch to do white-collar business will survive indefinitely, I think we're seeing a new willingness to accept the proper place of rail transit.
Phew.
to put it mildy most not all residents of MANHATTAN don't a RATS Ass about someone else economic problems just make sure they have the an over priced NYC address to call home with all the pretentiousness of Marie Antionette.. be it Upper West Side or the East Murray Hill
The Village East/WEST and lets not forget the Loft lovers in SOHO...
Manhattan is one huge ball of spoiled rich, pretentious arrogant tight assed snooty folks.. make sure they get to where they want what they want and f... everyone else it seems these same people are spilling over to Downtown Brooklyn Willamsburg and Jersey City
YUPPIES I just lovem just like a cancer come in take over gentrify.....
Yeah, sure, right, Anthony. I'd like (mildly) to point out that I'm working to pay the mortgage, save money, keep my job and do all the same stuff. I put my pants on one leg at a time too, walk to work and just want the subway ride (when I take it; walking is more pleasant on a nice day) to be fast, clean, efficient, relatively pleasant and unbothered by skells.
No one wants to admit being a Yupster, and I am one demographically, but I think it has nothing to do with where you live. There are many obnoxious, impatient, rude, grasping, intolerant, unsympathetic people in Staten Island, NJ, Westchester, Long Island, Brooklyn, Queens ... etc. Lighten up, chum.
Rich people aren't the ones riding the subway. Many merely affluent people do but, according to a study the TA paid for (more top heavy stuff) the average transit rider earns less than the average transit worker. You've got a lot of people who clean buildings and work in restaurants on the subway. The real money moves around Manhattan in taxis and limos, or comes in on MetroNorth and the LIRR.
[Rich people aren't the ones riding the subway. Many merely affluent people do but, according to a study the TA paid for (more top heavy stuff) the average transit rider earns less than the average
transit worker. You've got a lot of people who clean buildings and work in restaurants on the subway. The real money moves around Manhattan in taxis and limos, or comes in on MetroNorth and the LIRR.]
Yet many of those Metro North and LIRR riders get on the subway once they arrive at Grand Central or Penn. And a fair percentage of them are anything but poor - no doubt some of them are more than "merely affluent." People of all income groups except for the truly wealthy can be found on the subway. Even if you can easily afford a taxi or limousine, the subway is not infrequently the fastest means of transport. And the rich are strong believers in the adage that time is money.
The formula for New York getting a Republican mayor seems to be Democrats must control both the presidency and both houses of Congress (LaGuardia 1933, Lindsey 1965, Guiliani 1993), which prevents the city's Democratic politicians from blaming their problems on higher-up Republicans in Washington that hate New York City (i.e. "Ford to New York, Drop Dead").
So if NYC Republicans are to ever get back into Gracie Manson again, the national party will have to screw up royally -- Not that they're not fully capable of that, but the way things are going nationally, I'd say 2005 would be the earliest that could occur.
LaGuardia won in 1933 as a reaction to Tammany Hall, the corruption of the Walker Administration and the Democratic machine's inability to cope with the Depression. LaGuardia worked hand in glove with FDR's administration and was treated as a virtual "49th State" by the Feds, a position NYC liked and has never quite grown away from.
Lindsay won because, frankly, "he was fresh and the all rest were tired," to paraphrase one of his campaign slogans. Wagner (his predecessor) proved that being anti-Tammany wasn't everything. The City was in a long decline, both physically and in spirit, during his administration.
Giuliani won because Dinkins was a nice man who was elevated to a position he couldn't handle and couldn't deliver on the two key issues people expected from him: to improve race relations in the City and reduce crime.
Giuliani won more comfortably the second time (with Republicans in control of both houses of Congress) because, I believe, the Koch-Dinkins era crime statistics were still fresh enough in people's minds that they didn't believe Ruth Messinger when she said she would be as tough on crime as Giuliani. Giuiliani's entire extra margin came from the black and Latino communities. Remember that people vote their fears before their hopes.
True, but New York City politicians are among the undisputed masters at buck-passing. They don't necessarily have to pass the blame from one party to another (D'Amato/Pataki and Guliani or Cuomo and Koch are two examples of in-party feuds), but in general New York has been, and will be for the foreseeable future, a Democratic Party town, and if there are problems, the inital response is to try and pass some of the blame off on the other party. Usually, that means blame Washington, but I'm sure if Mark Green becomes the next mayor, he and Pataki will be going at it tooth and nail pretty quickly.
LaGuardia won in 1933 as a reaction to Tammany Hall, the corruption of the Walker Administration and the Democratic machine's inability to cope with the Depression. LaGuardia worked hand in glove with FDR's administration and was treated as a virtual "49th State" by the Feds, a position NYC liked and has never quite grown away from.
Lindsay won because, frankly, "he was fresh and the all rest were tired," to paraphrase one of his campaign slogans. Wagner (his predecessor) proved that being anti-Tammany wasn't everything. The City was in a long decline, both physically and in spirit, during his administration.
Giuliani won because Dinkins was a nice man who was elevated to a position he couldn't handle and couldn't deliver on the two key issues people expected from him: to improve race relations in the City and reduce crime.
Giuliani won more comfortably the second time (with Republicans in control of both houses of Congress) because, I believe, the Koch-Dinkins era crime statistics were still fresh enough in people's minds that they didn't believe Ruth Messinger when she said she would be as tough on crime as Giuliani. Giuiliani's entire extra margin came from the black and Latino communities. Remember that people vote their fears before their hopes.
True, but New York City politicians are among the undisputed masters at buck-passing. They don't necessarily have to pass the blame from one party to another (D'Amato/Pataki and Guliani or Cuomo and Koch are two examples of in-party feuds), but in general New York has been, and will be for the foreseeable future, a Democratic Party town, and if there are problems, the inital response is to try and pass some of the blame off on the other party. Usually, that means blame Washington, but I'm sure if Mark Green becomes the next mayor, he and Pataki will be going at it tooth and nail pretty quickly.
The MTA website is the worst government site I've seen. It looks 'pretty' but there are no provisions for feedback or complaints. They just got around to putting some of the NYCT bus schedules back on the site. You can tell from the website that the MTA loathes having direct communication with the tax-paying public. Yes, you can purchase metrocards on line, but that site is provided by a third party.
The MTA website is the worst government site I've seen. It looks 'pretty' but there are no provisions for feedback or complaints.
I would call that honesty. Lots of web sites do have a suggestion, info or complaint email link, but it's like the suggestion box that gets emptied into the waste basket.
"....but it's like the suggestion box that gets emptied into the waste basket."
Not really, they usually send you an auto-response letter, THEN they dump it.
Dave should know whether they do or not by looking at the server logs.
Dave, is anyone from the MTA's offices logging into SubTalk on a regular basis?
> Dave should know whether they do or not by looking at the server
> logs. Dave, is anyone from the MTA's offices logging into SubTalk on
> a regular basis?
I have no idea. It'll take several hours to reparse the logs to do hostname/IP address mappings (the log files are huge). I would suspect that a far flung agency like the MTA does not have all their computers tied into the Internet and instead people who access the internet from their desktops depend on some dialup service.
Last week's log is still being parsed but yes, there are people using MTA networks to read this site (a total of 474 hits attributable to mta.nyc.ny.us and nyct.com during the week). I don't know who they are-- as you all know there's no user-based accounting here.
-Dave
"There are people using MTA networks to read this site (a total of 474 hits attributable to mta.nyc.ny.us and nyct.com during the week)."
I'd bet those hits are from rail fans like us who've followed their dreams and now work for the NYCTA/MTA. They're probably coming to the site for the same reasons we do, and not because they're checking out our ideas. This is why screwy transit concepts become reality -- the "planners" are too high and mighty with their extensive formal education to listen to the opinions of real riders, and they also have to bow to political pressure. And this is not new -- whose idea was it to build the IND Crosstown line ahead of the Second Avenue Line? The Queens IND is a crucial part of the system now, but it wasn't needed to the same degree when it was conceived and built -- the Second Avenue line should have been built ahead of that, too. I suspect the planners had to serve the interests of politically-connected real estate developers in then-sparsely populated Queens.
My trip (first time since rebuiding) on the FSS.
I'm impress with all the stations part of the Franklin Avenue Shuttle.
Really very nice construction.
Why did it take them so long to put a transfer b/t the S and 2,3,4,5 lines? It's really a short transfer in comparison to the A or C lines.
My best station was the A or C transfer. The station construction is really nice. Esculators and elavators are all in the right place. Windows everywhere and a nice view from the predestrian bridge transfer to the Manhattan bound A or C lines.
We really have to thank the MTA for doing something good for a change.
Tim .. great post! Thank you for translating the articles for us.
What is the general impression of people regarding the public-vs-privately owned issue? As you probably already know, New York City pccasionally raises trial balloons of privatizing some city agencies. It doesn't sound like it's too successful as it relates to the Stockholm subway.
Also, how big is the Stockholm subway system? (track or route miles, stations, rolling stock)
--Mark
It's hard for me to give the general impression of privatization here in Stockholm. My own impression is that it has had a strong negative effect on the quality of service, but I would not be willing to ascribe that opinion to other people.
The subway in Stockholm is 110 km (66 miles) in route length, has 100 stations and about 900 cars. There are seven lines that run all the time, as well as a number (about five) extra lines that only run at certain times, mostly in the peak hours. On a normal weekday, it carries about a million people -- more than any US heavy-rail system except New York's. (For comparison, greater Stockholm is about the size of the Kansas City or Milwaukee metro area.)
The newspaper article's reference to the subway being run by a private agency refers to the acquisition, by a subsidiary of the French company CGEA Transport, of SL Tunnelbanan AB. ("AB" means "share company," i.e. corporation.) However, while this acquisition is recent, having been completed on 30 June of this year, the subway system has been regularly tendered (contracted out) since, I believe, 1994. SL Tunnelbanan, a subsidiary of the transit agency (AB Storstockholms Lokaltrafik, which as the name indicates is organized as a corporation), has won all the tenders.
In my view, the years of competitive contracting in public transport here have resulted in an underfunded and undermaintained system, because the mistake has been made of not having sufficient guarantees of quality in the contracts. Another problem is that the parceling out of various parts of the system for tender has meant that cooperation and communication between, for instance, the bus system and the commuter trains have suffered. On the whole, the quality of the system has declined somewhat -- not more than that -- but the ability of the system to meet challenges, like those posed by a serious service disruption, has been greatly impaired, which in itself is a reduction in quality and which has negatively affected public perceptions of the system as a whole.
Regards,
Tim
Forgot to give my comment about privatization in New York: Fight it tooth and nail, but if you can't stop it, at least work to make sure that (1) the funding is entirely adequate, and (2) good measures and guarantees of quality are built into the tenders.
Regards,
Tim
I would point out that "privatization" seems to be causing problems in the UK, but US freight railroads have always been private and now they're doing better, I would argue, than if the government ran them, despite thefact that they have to compete with publicly subsidized modes.
I think the issue in US cities would not be private/public per se as political conditions have changed so much since the days that private ownership of public transit was common.
In NYC the issue is competition, or the lack of it. The TA was directed to privatize its bus system, and never did. As an experiment, I would like to see the City competitively hiring separate management teams to operate the two subway divisions, as well as the bus lines, with a different organization (on the buses) at least down to the borough level.
The problem with privitizing a capital asset is that if the fare is fixed by regulation the operator has an incentive to cash cow the asset and then walk away. That's what the private operators did with the subways. That's what the Jamaica Water Company did with the infrastructure of that part of Queens. And that's what landlords do with NYC's rent regulated housing stock.
On the other hand, if you allow them to charge as much as they want, you are left with an unregulated monopoly that can gouge like crazy.
So you can't "privatize" the subways, but you could allow private operators to provide local bus service.
The problem with privitizing a capital asset is that if the fare is fixed by regulation the operator has an incentive to cash cow the asset and then walk away. That's what the private operators did with the subways.
Neither your characterization of the nature of private operation of the IRT and BMT nor the impetus for the takeover by the City describe the historical reality.
This is not to say that the IRT did not, in its early days, attempt to use city-built infrastructure as a "cash cow," as you have it, but this reality turned over first, by thesigning of the Dual Contracts, and second, by the wartime inflation of the 'teens.
Subsidized competition destroyed privately owned transportation infrastructure in the U.S., Automobile,Trucking and Construction intrests CONvinced the military and political leadership to throw terabucks at the highway system with disastrous results. This CORRUPTION is why America will ALWAYS have a second rate transportation system, forever dependent on government handouts.
As far as the freight roads go, the government did run the Northeast out of the hole with Conrail (RIP), and I think that it was 1984 (much earlier than anyone ever expected) that the system went back into public hands.
At the same time that the government "subsidized" air and highway traffic, they de-regulated the rail industry, and left the highway users saddled with a grossly inefficient long-distance system. Anyone who thinks that the highway is better for long distance freight should talk to a logistics expert for J.B.Hunt, Schnieder National, or UPS, all of whom use rail service extensively, because it's simply too inefficient to truck large quantities of materials across the country.
The other government-owned rail system, Amtrak, faces mandates to become self-sufficent (I'm not sure if this is a route to privatization, or just to be free of tax dollars, like the USPS). Amtrak is pretty close, and I think that revenue is about 90%(or more) of costs right now. The subway, or any of the regional mass-transit systems face a much larger economic hurdle. Actually, the only division of the MTA that could stand alone is Bridges&Tunnels, and privatized construction of toll-facilities has proven to be very feasible and profitable, meaning less [subsidy]tax dollars in the pot and more [user] tolls to pay.
As far as I can see, the only motivation for privatization is to work some form of magic through the introduction of the profit motive. A truly competitive situation, in which the customer (the passenger) can choose among several suppliers of the *same* product or service, is not practical in public transit -- the infrastructure's too expensive to permit that.
What privatization has meant in Stockholm, at least, is turning the transit agency into a "buyer" of transit service. It decides what transit service it wants to have, and goes out and solicits bids, and awards a contract to one company or another to provide the service being tendered. The end customer, the passenger, still ends up with no choice at all.
Unfortunately, in my view, it is extremely difficult to structure a privatization in such a way that the most profitable course for the operator is to provide the best possible service to passengers. That's the challenge, and I'm not aware of any place that's fully met it -- New Zealand seems to have come rather far, but I'm not sure how far.
None of this is to say that public agencies are always good at providing the best possible service either. I'm just pointing out that privatization isn't really the cure-all it's often made out to be.
-- Tim
In a perfect world, Government's role would be to regulate so that everybody plays nice and levy taxes to finance it's own operations. Certainly, I advocate comprehensive regulation and a progressive personal income tax with a high max. bracket, but ownership should be in private hands. Only the private sector can create wealth. As for trucking, in the early '80's there was a proposal put forth by the American Trucking Associations to purchase the Interstate Highway System from the federal government. I wonder what ever became of that
Businesses love privitization. They see goldbricking civil servants ripping off the public and say gee, we could be ripping off the public instead!
Having seen first hand what a sucker the public sector is in purchasing and contracts, I have my doubts about privitization. Unles s you have an agency controlled by a group that operates more like a mafia than a group of workers, you're better off with your own team, especially in an labor shortage environment.
The private sector is quickly adjusting to the new balance of power in the labor market. The government, as usual, is behind the curve. Those contracts you sign to contract out could get quite pricy in the next few years.
Besides putting a man on the moon (even that cost a fortune), what has government EVER done effeciently?
Perfect examples: Post Office, DMV, Sanitation, TRANSIT, etc, etc........
Government has no bottom line, so there is absolutely NO incentive to fund rationally or produce a profit.
I visited the Union Square Station this afternoon, as part of my "depth measurement" program for Peggy's Line-by-Line section.
I noticed the ADA elevator from the surface to the fare control area stops a few feet BELOW the fare control level; there is a ramp that goes up those few feet. I wonder why it couldn't be built to stop right on the mezzanine level?
The station's looking pretty nice!
I also toured the entire Canal Street station; there's been significant work on the H1 track area (suspended BMT bridge track).
The Broadway NR downtown platform is a bit too dark for my tastes. There are some light fixtures recently installed to combat this, but they need to be installed for the entire length of the platform. I hope it doesn't turn into another Broadway-Lafayette.
And the new lighting scheme at Whitehall St. sucks.
It's probably been 25 years since I last visited Union Square station. Back in the early 1970's, they sealed off several long ramps that went from the BMT Broadway subway down to the Canarsie Line. Have they re-opened any of these ramps?
No, they haven't. I believe that they were "sloped step" ramps, that is, long downhill ramps with steps. Apparently these are WAY dangerous.
The one piece of the Union Square rehab that didn't get done (they ran out of money, big surprise) was a new connection to the L train that would have required them to tear up 14th Street to install it. So while access among the 4/5/6 and N/R trains is significantly improved, the access to the L train from all of the above hasn't changed much.
The L platform at Union Sq. is very dangerous during rush hours, especially between the two stairways leading up to the uptown and downtown NR platforms. Nothing was done to address this.
I don't recall them as being sloped-stepped, although the tiles on the walls were.
They have reopened at least one of the ramps to the L that was closed, which connects to the fare control level between the 4/5/6 and the N/R connection. It was was boarded up (but not bricked up) for a long time during the station repairs.
The ramps at the west end of the L that came up on the west side of the N/R fare control area are still shut tight AFAIK.
Environmentalists may soon have their day. There has been much concern about the disposable plastic cards creating unnecessary waste. The MTA has undertaken a $500,000 study of whether to build a 75 foot Metrocard Recycling Machine which would convert used Metrocards into brand new subway cars. The recycling machine would melt the cards and then using State of the Art Injection Moulding Machines, create a sturdy plastic subway car which will be comparable in strength to the cars currently on order.
Remember, you heard this story here first on
SubTalk. If you think the current use of Metrocards
to capture criminals has raised concerns, wait till
you hear this story.
A group of people with a strong belief that American
morality has sunken to new lows has gained influence
with the powers of the MTA to create a Metrocard
Smart Card. What's that you say? Using state of
the art microprocessors, each metrocard would have a
specially designed chip that would enable them
to peer into your inner core. It would be able to
measure your aura and fathom your darker side,
things that you hide from other people. This would
all be encoded on the card. Then when you swipe the
card on a bus the sign box behind the driver would
have colored panels indicating whether you are an
adulterer, or slothful, or envious, a liar, a
paranoid, obsessive compulsive, bedwetter, or any of
a dozen other deviant behaviors. More than one
light can go on, depending on the extent of the
depravities. In the subways, instead of lights,
there would be a loudspeaker making these
announcements. It was hoped that the fear of
embarrassment and the resulting condemnation would
get people to change their ways.
Oddly enough, some people favor this idea. They
felt that each bus ride or subway ride would be
fascinating. You could learn all the secrets that
your righteous neighbors hide from view. People about whom you always knew that there was something wrong will at last revealed for what they are.
Further investigation into the origin of this
movement has revealed that it is a spin off of the
OBIT episode of the original Outer Limits from the
1960's. Thank God this too was caught in the bud
before it destroyed the morale of the American
public. The desire to spy on others and judge them
is a very destructive force.
We now return control of SubTalk back to you.
Truth being stranger than fiction: the Authority already compiles the data from MetroCards issued to employee's to track their usage. Big Brother is here.
That must be interesting reading!!
Gee, Tony has to report at 5:15 and he got on at the station by his house at 4:30 each day. Wouldn't it be faster if he walked two blocks to an express and ....
No it's more like this:
Tony was paid to be at work from 4 to 12. He swiped on at 2:54 and again at 8:15(lunch), and again at 11:55. HE LEFT EARLY! FIRE HIM!
More then that "Big Brother" is watching the customer useage to ID folks with alteratered MCs who are riding for free.
Also the "Smart Card" is already in use at several large cities, incl. Washington D.C. & Chicago.
And the Am Exp card is a Smart Card that you hook up to your PC.
Mr t__:^)
Is this a Rudy vs. Hillary issue?
No George, this is not a Rudy- Hillary issue as most
politicians would be dead set against the use of the
Smart Card, since most of them are prime examples of
people who would be adversely affected by the
revelation of the truth.
Outer Limits! The only truly scary program/movie ever made!
Now here's a good off-topic thread!
Whar was your favorite episode, Paul?
Outer Limits favorite episode? Gotta be "The Zanti Misfits". I remember Bruce Dern was in that. He was close to being a kid it was so long ago!
SubDude
need detailed plans of subway cars so i can model them without waiting for james c. grellers book to be printed
If you're in NYC, check the municipal reference department of the main public library on 42nd Street. I was able to find some detailed specifications and drawings of CTA and Metra rolling stock in the main branch of Chicago public library.
While you're at the library, look for reference books about trains. They may also be helpful.
BTW, useless trivia: Nobody has used actual "blue prints" for about 20+ years. They were replaced by blueline prints, which are now themselves being replaced by laser-generated hard copies from digitzed CAD files. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
The "Handbook of electric Railway engineering" Richey 1924, has details of the tunnels in NYC It was available in a ARM reprint a few years ago. The library may have a copy of it too
What book is Greller putting out, and when is it expected?
I am a retired operator, who worked on the PC, ConRail
and Metro North. My son is trying to get hired on NYC
Transit, and badly needs a copy of NYCTA Operating
Rules and Air Brake Rules for an upcoming test.
Do you know any railfans who might have access to
these, or any other sources?
Willing to pay a reasonable amount.
Thanks,
Ravgil
Didn't you ask this last week? I think the answer was to check the Civil Service Bookstore.
-Dave
Yes and I previously posted their phone number too. It is 212-226-9506.
By the way the NYCTA will never compare to PC, Conrail or Metro North as the TA does NOT, I repeat NOT have an air brake book such as the TRO manual at NJT. The TA's backup to a train operator's ability to learn air brakes is a trip cock and 800 ton barrier ahead of him/her. Lately the barrier has been utilized to stop some trains. Rules will not be used on the T/O exam if your son is taking it for open competetive. Common sense, computing and mathematical questions and points of interest in NYC will probably be used. By the way NJT is hiring. Why go to the minors when you can go to the major leagues instead?
Believe it or else, I was actually e-mailed tonight by the original poster in the thread, and I live in Baltimore and all my experience is with streetcars.
If this Open Competitive Train Operator exam isn't supposed to be as technical as it has been publicized why would anyone have to worry about the rules and regulations? hence only a CURRENTLY Employed person would be concerned. Reading comprehension and basic math and knowledge about the New York City Area should be the only questions on the test. Such as where was the original Madison Square Garden Located? Ebbetts Field the Polo Grounds... etc etc...
also understanding/reading timetables...
Why does somebody trying to work for the TA have to know where these sports facilities once were?
Why does somebody trying to work for the TA have to know where these sports facilities once were?
Good question. Does knowledge of New York history and trivia make one more competant to do the job? Absurd! Does knowledge of sports trivia make a better athlete? I could see asking questions on the test about the subway system. Someone knowledgeable about the system would obviously make a better T/O than someone who isn't. BTW, Madison Square Garden is currently in its 3rd location. I don't know where the other 2 were, and ask me if I care! I used to know where the 2nd one was, but its not important enough to remember. Hey, what about someone who has experience as a T/O from another city who's never been to NY before, and just moved here. Obviously that person would make a good T/O but couldn't answer the stupid trivia questions.
MSG was previously above the C / E station at 50th street. Where worlwide plaza is now.
The original two incarnartions of MSG were at Madison Square itself.
General knowledge questions have been on prior tests afterall shouldn't a prospective employee know something about the surrounding NYC area? past/present. on a past test I believe a question about the location of St Patricks Cathedral and among the answers was 110th street Cathedral pkwy. How many people do you think put that as the correct answer?
Why should it matter to a person where something USED to be? I don't even remember where the original city dump was, and I'm the mayor!
hmm something fishy going on Local 100 contract due to expire and negotiations are taking place.... MTA now claiming that due to certain capital expenditures in the not too distant future that the possibility that fares may have to increase by as mush as 30 cents...
Funny how in 1996 when TA cried poverty and our contract was reopened (thank Willie James) and then suddnely (tada) surplus...isn't MTA making money hand over fist with all the additional riders?
I don't think the surplus will be large enough to fund the service improvements and building projects the subway system will need in the near future.
The only way I'd justfy a $.30 increase would be to force the MTA to set aside those funds for the building of that 2nd. Ave. subway line.
that was part of the proposal in addition to the subway car and bus purchases and other improvements
Just out of curiosity, what would it take to bring the NYC subway back up to 55-MPH? A new signal system?
I was looking over the CTA's proposed year 2000 budget Capital Renewal Expenditures and noticed that they are updating the signal system.
Upgrading it system wide will cost 1.6 million for the entire project. However just the design for the replacement for the Dearborn and State Subways will cost 4 million.
Any idea how much it will cost for NYC to update the entire system. Proabaly atleast a couple billion if they are good at spending money like the CTA is!
Also here are some other interesing proposed things for 2000:
Desing for Re-construction of Howard St. Station: 3.5 Mil (Just design, no work!)
Design for Douglas Blue line Renovation: 11 Mil
Design for Brown Line 8 car expansion: 17 Mil
Design for improvements to 69th and 87th Dan Ryan Stations 1 mil each
BJ
The best way to speed up service on CTA L lines would be to go back to using conductors. OPTO seems to add at least 20-30 sec. to each station stop.
-- Ed Dachs
At DCP a couple of years ago, Reuter said the signal system would be replaced over 30 YEARS, and that it would allow faster speeds OFF PEAK because the train would know there is no train in front. At rush hour, there is a train in front, and speeds will not increase.
its amazing that the shit head who thought up opto didn't put that into the proposal. The T/O now doing the duties of C/R will add 20 to 30 second per station stop increasing dwell time which adds up for an entire trip.
Ah, but Anthony, he SAVED MONEY! Which is paramount to them, to the detriment of safety, efficiency, courtesy.....
The reason for the reduced speed is that the NYCT signal system, for the most part, is 50 years old. It was never designed to handle the speeds that today's subway cars can achieve. Signal spacing would need to be increased or one additional signal block added for protection. The replacement of the entire signal system will take about 30 years.
The replacement of the entire signal system will take about 30 years.
By that time, the new signal system would be obsolete again!
But at least it won't be fossilized :)
Actually, the entire signal system isn't "obsolete". It's old technology, but it works well, even to this day. It's just old.
Actually, the entire signal system isn't "obsolete". It's old technology, but it works well, even to this day. It's just old.
I could say the same thing about my old 486, and that was 2 'puters ago.
The signal system is FINE! For 40 years it served without fault. It's the trains that changed. Brakes, motors, whatever you blame, things were ok until the GOH and new cars were put in service.
Another case of a manufactured crisis, which management can use to justify further expenditure.
The reason for the reduced speed is that the NYCT signal system, for the most part, is 50 years old.
It was never designed to handle the speeds that today's subway cars can achieve. Signal spacing
would need to be increased or one additional signal block added for protection. The replacement of
the entire signal system will take about 30 years.
I disagree. Yes, the signal system is old. The basic layout
of blocks and control lines is 60+ years old. It is true that it
was based on the older equipment with slower balancing speed. But
the "new" (postwar SMEE) equipment has better emergency stopping
distances at maximum speeds than the signal design spec. Of course
the higher HP motors of the GOH fleet more than compensate for the
increased weight of HVAC and they do go a little faster
What would it take? A miracle.
If anything the MTA lawyers are looking to slow things down to prevent accidents (or so they say). A perfect example is the resignaling on the Pelham Bay line. They have slowed service on the AM/PM express service down to a crawl with all those grade/timer signals. There was never any problems before.
Sometimes I think the MTA lawyers would be afraid of their own shadow if they thought it could sue them.
Unfortunately the TA is run by lawyers. Approxiamately 700 reside at 130 Livingston St.
An easy(er) method would be to first mandate a maximum speed for each signal aspect and then to convert to a 4 aspect system with flashing yellow as ADVANCE APPROACH. This way when a driver got a CLEAR he would know that at least 3 blocks after his are also devoid of trains and could then proceede at the maximum linespeed of 55 mph. With a flashing yellow he should keep it at 40 and with a yellow he should keep it at 30 or below.
But that would justify keeping the existing signals. And MAKE SENSE.
Management has created this so called problem deliberately to justify the funding of a new signal system. Believe me, they are aware of how things crawl, and they could care less.
[Just out of curiosity, what would it take to bring the NYC subway back up to 55-MPH?]
Privitization.
"[Just out of curiosity, what would it take to bring the NYC subway back up to 55-MPH?]
Privatization."
Only if a competing subway were built.
I hear MetroLink................
3TM
Houston St. Transfer to the J and Z across the platform, final trasfer to Jamaica. The F,H,K on the upper level. The M21 on the street level. Fulton St bound P making local stops. The next stop will be Houston St. Transfer to the B and D across the platform. The M103 on the upper level. Stand Clear...........
Both go on sale 11/15/1999 at 7am. I am grouping stations to save space.
1- Continental Airkines: "Clean planes, comfortable seats, on time performance"
42nd-A,C,E,N,R,1,2,3,7,9,S
Lexington/51--E,F,6
59/Columbus Circle-1,9,A,B,C,D
South Ferry-1,9
23-1,9
Cortlandt-1,9
Bowling Green-4,5
Wall Street-2,3 ONLY
14-1,2,3,9,A,C,E,L,N,R
28-1,9,N,R
Chrsitopher-1,9
50-1,9
34-A,C,E
33-6
8th Ave- L
******
American Express Blue ("Third release")
59/Lexington--N,R,4,5,6
49-N,R
City Hall-N,R
96-B,C,1,2,3,6,9
86-B,C,1,9,4,5,6
81-B,C
72-B,C,1,2,3,9
23-C,E,6
World Trade Center-A,C,E,2,3
7 Av Manhattan-B,D,E
5 Av- E,F
14-F,1,2,3,9
West4- A,B,C,D,E,F,Q
Broadway/Lafayette-B,D,F,Q
Lexington/63--Q
Chambers-1,2,3,9
Franklin-1,9
Houston-1,9
18-1,9
34-1,2,3,9
66-1,9
79-1,9
Spring-6
Bleecker-6
28-6
Grand Central-4,5,6,7,S
68 and 77-6
102-1,9,6
110-B,C,1,9
116-1,9
145-A,B,C,D
177 /Parkchester-6
Fordham-B,D
Mott (Rockaway),A
Ditmars-N
Flatbush-2,5
Kings Hwy,D,Q
Prospect Park-D,Q,S
DeKalb- L ONLY
Lefferts-A
Bay Pky- B,M ONLY
18 av-B
71 st-B
225 to 238 -1,9
67 av-G,R
75 Av-G,R
71/Continental-E,F,G,R
Lorimer/Metropolitan-G,L
Howard Beach- A
Rockaway Blvd-A
BROOKLYN:
77-B
50-B
55-B
Church Av-D,Q ONLY
Ave M-D
Av J-D
Av H- D
Cortelyou- D
Newkirk- D
Beverly (Their spelling)-D
SOURCE: OFFICIAL AFC Bulletins
Bill Brown and Don K. Reed were the 2 DJ's on WCBS-FM when it began
playing oldies. Harry Harrison, Ron Lundy, and Dan Ingram came
over from WABC. Cousin Brucie first was at WABC, then WNBC. Jack
Spector started with Harrison at WMCA, then went to WHN. Bob
Shannon came here from Syracuse. And Dick Heatherton (son of the
Merry Mailman and brother of actress Joey), Jim Nettleton, and
George Michael came to New York from WFIL in Philadelphia (Dick to
WCBS-FM, George and Jim to WABC).
Not to mention Gary Stevens and Bob O'brian on WMCA, and Murray the K. I think he was on WINS when it was a top 40 station. Also, Chuck Leonard was on WABC.
Bill Brown came to CBS-FM from WOR-FM. OR was one of the first FM stations to play rock. After several name changes its now WKRS "Kiss"
FM at 98.7 I won a 2 record (vinyl) set of oldies when the station started in the late sixties. Just had to sent in a PC. No calls or anything. Never heard my name called so it must have been in "the wee small hours of the morning".
If any ST is interested I'll dig out the album and list the DJ's that were pictured on the inside cover.
I never miss Don K Reed's Doo Op Shop on Sunday nights. It makes me enemies with my younger partners!!!!! By the way, according to the show most of the 50's Doo Woppers practiced in the subway and I understand Kings Hway on the Brighton was the best accoustics wise!!!!
You are on the wrong message board. Please go to: Musicradio@computer.net Scroll down for the New York Radio Message Board. You will not regret it!
11/06/99
Subway Buff,
Wait a minute here! You mean to tell me there is a 3rd American Express "blue"? I know the first one was the "upside down" card , then I hear waffling rumors that a corrected "right side up" one was out there. And now there will be a third on 11/15. What was the 2nd one like ??
This is not directed to you Mr.Subway Buff , but how the hell does a post about promotional MetroCards becomes Old Time DJ's........Mr.Linsky !!
Bill Newkirk
TO DENNIS LINSKY: I can't see how a plastic farecard has anything to do with Harry Harrison or Ron Lundy. What was the reason for posing that? Can you please explain?????? Mabey I shouldn't even ask!!
Mr.Linsky,please leave the off center stuff to a true professional known as heypaul!
Since when does Bellvue's rubber rooms have internet access ?
BS
Don't be too hard on the guy. Where do you think I got my start in the entertainment business? It's only been about three months that I've been out of restraints myself. That's why at times it is so hard to restrain my silly sense of humor. By the way, thanks for recognizing my professionalism. It's been a long hard road getting to this point in life. It hasn't been easy. I have to be very careful about what people say to me. It used to be if someone said Niagara Falls, I would lose control just like Sid Fields. heypaul.
I believe that there have been three "releases" -- that is, deliveries with specific sale dates -- of the Amex Blue card. I understand that they are all identical, as the multiple shippings of some other high-volume cards have been in the past.
11/07/99
Marc Rivlin,
It sounds like all three cards will be identical. So there wasn't a corrected (right side up) American Express Blue?
Bill Newkirk
For those interested, we are going to be operating again tomorrow at the southern end of Van Brunt Street, around noon.
By Public Transit, take the F to Smith & 9th, go downstairs to the B77 towards Red Hook, get off at Van Brunt, walk along it 4 short blocks to the end of the road, and you will see us.
By car, take Hamilton Av WEST- PAST the Battery tunnel entrance, make a left on Van Brunt, go about 1 mile to the end.
I had the opportunity this afternoon to see a very interesting little parade. A local tourist railroad whose fall weekend operations is very limited apparently leased out their tracks for the day to a hobby club that restores those little gas powered track cars, that type that railroad track workers used to use years ago. These are little four wheel cars, about six foot long that are propelled by gasoline engines. They normally seat two to four people. There must have been 3 or 4 dozen of these cars on the line. They apparently travel 10 or 20 miles out of town, turn them around, and return. They seem to stay pretty much together, I guess because they have to manually flag the highway road crossings. This creates what appears to be a parade, since they are all operated separately. The owners obviously take great pride in restoring their cars for some of them were painted up in the colors of a lot of the old railroads such as Reading, Misouri Pacific, Canadian National etc. Coming across this this parade on a section of rural railroad track out in the country is quite a sight to see. I sure wish I had had my camera along.
Karl, there was a video filmed on 26 February 1994 and released by American AltaVista entitled Vidalia to Savannah by Motor Car. I have a copy; it is of a similar excursion to the one you witnessed today. It's 50 minutes long and listed for $29.95. American AltaVista has a number of different tapes available, mostly of southern subjects. If you want a copy their phone number is (910) 767-6067 or (800) 767-6067 - they're based in Winston-Salem, North Carolina.
Getting one of those motor cars is another of my dreams - but, like most of them, isn't likely to ever be realized.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Do these people travel all over the country to ride their motorcars on different railroads? I thought that it was a club that just got trackage rights to test out their cars. My neighbor says that he saw something similar last year about this time on the same tracks.
It sure was something to see. Some of those cars really looked like a pile of money was spent on restoring them, if that is the proper word for it. I imagine that it cost a bundle to rent the tracks too.
I've printed your post to check on those tapes
There are a couple of national clubs, which probably have local chapters, referenced at the very end of the tape. They travel around to various locations - one of the people on the tape talked about doing it 20 or 30 weekends a year, all over the country. (Obviously, he's retired and a whole lot more financially secure than I am!)
I don't think the costs to obtain and restore a car are really all that bad - under 10K back in '94, if I remember correctly what the tape said. My wife's taping something downstairs right now and I'm too lazy to go upstairs and put the tape in to check.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon,
What are the cars called? They have a name but I don't remember it.
I remember when I was a kid they used to pull little trailer cars too.
Simply "motorcars", as far as I know. Sometimes they were also referred to as "speeders", but I think that term mostly applied to the open ones, not those with cabs (at least that was the way I remember hearing it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Karl, I was working a small show today with our Ntrak club and browsed, as I always do, at the dealer tables. One of them was a large assortment of video tapes, including another one entitled Wilderness by Motor Car, released in 1997 by Matrix Video, LLC of Longwood, Florida, MSRP $19.95 (I paid $18). The tape starts with a little bit of history and then shows snippets from all over North America of people on motorcar trips, as well as short scenes of various tourist and mainline railroads. I don't consider it nearly as focused as the American AltaVista tape, but it made for interesting viewing nonetheless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's a funny thing, but I attended a railroadiana show down here where they had lots of videos but did not see anything on Motorcars. That one you found sounds like it had a more attractive price on it, even though it wasn't as good as your first one. I'll keep looking, and I thank you for the information.
My pleasure. If I had the choice of one or the other, though, I'd definately go with the American AltaVista one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are clubs for them. One of the guys at work said he saw a story about them on TV Tracks ahead I think. Look for it, they rerun them some times.
does anyone know where I can find/purchase vintage nyc subway maps?
does anyone know where I can find/purchase vintage nyc subway maps?
try http://www.ebay.com/
In the search, type in "subway map" without the quotes. There's always at least a half dozen maps being auctioned on any given day. You will find everything from pre-unification maps to the 80's.
I have got a good supply of older maps, which I have sent gratis to various other subtalkers. Let me know what vintage?
I think one way we could help build solidarity amongst the workers is for some of the experienced workers who post here, to help the people who are planning to take the train operator's exam. Although I do not work for transit, I would like to contribute a typical exam question.
1. You are operating a Coney Island bound F coming into Jay Street when a customer throws a bag full of elephant dung against your windshield. You should
a. Look at the cab door for the current 12 code and report the incident immediately to command center.
b. You should alert Transit Authority Police by blowing 4 long, 3 short, and 5 long and then dumping your air.
c. You should run over to the customer who did it and tell him to take his complaints upstairs to the suits on the 15th floor.
d. You should realize that in some cultures this action was meant to demonstrate respect and ask the
customers who made the political statement to send it to Customer Relations so that they could enter this in your personnel file.
e. contact the producers of Transit Transit as soon as you reach Coney Island, as this is exactly the kind of material that is suited for that show.
1. You are operating a Coney Island bound F coming into Jay Street when a customer throws a bag full of elephant dung against your windshield. You should
a. Look at the cab door for the current 12 code and report the incident immediately to command center.
b. You should alert Transit Authority Police by blowing 4 long, 3 short, and 5 long and then dumping your air.
c. You should run over to the customer who did it and tell him to take his complaints upstairs to the suits on the 15th floor.
d. You should realize that in some cultures this action was meant to demonstrate respect and ask the
customers who made the political statement to send it to Customer Relations so that they could enter this in your personnel file.
e. contact the producers of Transit Transit as soon as you reach Coney Island, as this is exactly the kind of material that is suited for that show.
There is no "best" answer. They're all correct!
Hey, BMT, You left one out.
F. Call Rudy Giuliani and LYNCH the customer right on the platform :-)
How about f. Take the train to the IRT Eastern Pkway, Bkyn Museum stop?
I was on the LIRR Port Washington branch today, and the LIRR just seems to be getting worse. The trains in both directions had a very rough ride (rougher than most of the subways) and very noisy.
Also the trains are dreary and depressing. Plus, you wait at the "big board" at Penn station for the track to be called. Then when it's called that mob of people rushes toward the train.
But what I'd like to know was why the ride was so rough, much rougher than when I took the Babylon branch and Main lines.
LIRR needs a major overhaul. Today wasn't even a weekday. I think the subways are much better than LIRR, I rode in the Flushing Redbirds and had a much better ride on Friday.
Who would want to pay $4.25 or more for a ride on a train that sounds like a piece of junk anyway? You'd be much better off with a subway for $1.50 than the LIRR.
Not to mention those old fashioned roll sign boards they use at Penn.
That, plus dreary trains, rough trains, rude riders, and dilapidated stations and ROW's makes me wonder how anybody could take the LIRR on a daily basis.
AMEN!
[re miserable ride on the PW line]
My "favorite" experience on the LIRR happens when your feet stick to the floors and beer cans roll down the aisles.
And when you open up the john door and something evil comes leaping out to put a major-league hurt on your nose! Pee-YOU! The LIRR cars are awful.
Wayne
Out here in California we have "Caltrain" with bi-level gallery cars pulled by F40 diesels. The trains themselves are usually pretty clean, but the train really sucks. It's a wonder the don't have seat belts on them tokeep passengers from bouncing off the ceilings. (In all fairness, they ARE trying to work on the tracks.)
But the restrooms in the cab cars --- P.U.!!! They stink just as bad, if not worse, than anything I ever encountered on the LIRR.
I think what the problem is --- you gotta stand close, it's shorter than you think!!!! Passengers should pee IN the toilet, not just near it.
The problem on the LIRR is exacerbated by the fact that the LIGHTS are OUT in most of the johns, making it a very dicey proposition where to aim your #1. Then you get these clowns who think that the loo is a garbage-disposal. They stuff all kinds of things in there THEN they do their thing!
Wayne
I'm just wondering why the LIRR electric cars give such a rough ride. I've heard they have square wheels but how do they even move with square wheels?
And people sleep on there, I wonder how with all that noise. When I took the train 10 years ago (on the Babylon line) the ride was quiet and smooth. Perhaps the older M-1's are the trains in the worst shape, and they're used on the PW line because I've gotten smoother rides from trains on the main line and Babylon line.
Do they use more of the newer M-3's there? Or are the tracks in bad shape in alot of places?
11/07/99
John,
The problem of the spotted wheels are a seasonal thing. This time of year with the leaves falling off the trees and covering tracks somehow cause the wheels to slide when brakes are applied. There is a remedy for this but it seems the wheels get spotted anyway , it's called slip/slide! Really. If you ride the LIRR or maybe even Metro North all year round you'll find out that it's this time of the year that the cars need to pay a visit to the wheel truing machine! Just a few days ago I heard a eastbound train of M-1's leaving Amityville and EVERY truck had spotted wheels!
Bill Newkirk
Yeah, but metro-North does a better job at keeping it down than the LIRR does. Also, the nice layers of grease on the tracks at places like Jamacia (look down of a rainy day and notice how tha water bals up) can't help.
I was never in an LIRR bathroom until they took away the smoking cars!!!
11/07/99
Today I went into the city and changed at Jamaica for a train to Woodside. The next train was a Penn Station express so I decided that I am wasting precious time and take the Next Penn bound train in. Luckily, since the Flushing #7 line went as far as Queensboro Plaza.
All of a sudden a train of M1's-3's pulls in with NO passengers. After asking a conductor if this was the 11:36 (AM) to Penn , he said it was. Since when does this train originate at Jamaica and terminate at Penn? Was this an EXTRA for todays marathon?
Bill Newkirk
[All of a sudden a train of M1's-3's pulls in with NO passengers. After asking a conductor if this was the 11:36 (AM) to Penn , he said it was. Since when does this train originate at Jamaica and terminate at Penn? Was this an EXTRA for todays marathon?]
It might have been related to the signal work that's closed down service to Flatbush Avenue this weekend.
On the mezzanine level of the PATH WTC terminal, just outside fare control, is a lighted "Information?" board with transit information. It appears as though the PATH info is up-to-date, but I did see one curiousity. The NYC subway system sectional (mostly lower Manhattan and midtown) includes the "JFK Express - Extra Fare Required." Uh... excuse me, but...
Isn't that right next to the board announcing the departures for the Manhattan Transfer express service?
Is Pennsy still running K4s out of Manhatten Transfer or did they get those new Alco PA 1st to do it?
Only if Mr. Peabody will lend you the WayBack Machine.
It was a pleasure to wake up to a pleasent voice giving "Traffic & Weather" this weekend ! What underground delights did you savor this time ? Too bad you just missed the IRT's birthday !
Mr t__:^)
Mr. T,
I did a TON of riding (upTON and downTON!).
Most of it was in support of gathering depth data for Peggy's Line-by-Line write-ups. I'm sure she'll be incorporating the data into the text soon, and passing it along to Dave for posting.
I called this the "stairmaster tour," since I had to take measurements on every platform and at street level at all of the multi-line stops, such as Broadway-Nassau, Times Square, Grand Central, etc.
By the way, taking the Q-33 back to LGA yesterday on your "competitor," I saw a yard full of 3000-series alternative fuel buses at TCC's depot.
Todd, You're report brought a smile to my lips ... Thanks !
BTW, I too did a couple of stations for Peggy (she's acting like a boss already). Seriously it was a labor of love as I was happy to do it for her. At Long Beach I even leared something of value, i.e the diesel/trolley platforms are still there.
Re: TCC - We're still getting some of "their" buses, e.g. 450, 451, & 488 last week. I hope they get the problem worked out.
Mr t__:^)
Umm, yeah, and you can also catch the SS shuttle from Bowling Green to South Ferry ....
--Mark
As previously mentioned here on SubTalk, rumor has it that DM30AC (dual-mode) service will begin on the LIRR on November 15.
The public timetables beginning November 15 are now available at the Information Booth at Penn Station, and yesterday I picked up the Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson, and Montalk branch timetables.
I searched these three timetables for indications of dual-mode, direct to Penn Station service, by looking for the "missing J" aside the Penn Station arrival or departure time. Here's what I found:
Oyster Bay
No indication of direct to Penn Station service.
Port Jefferson
Train 605, Port Jefferson (5:44am) to Penn Station (7:20am)
Train 660, Penn Station (4:49pm) to Port Jefferson (6:36pm)
Note - these are the trains that have used the prototype FL9/C-1 bi-levels for a number of years, so they are good candidates to receive the DM30ACs.
Montalk
Train 2737, Speonk (6:11am) to Penn Station (8:23am)
Train 2734, Penn Station (5:10pm) to Speonk (7:18pm)
These are the only trains that I can see in these three timetables that could be served by DM30AC by virtue of the "missing J." Has anyone else checked these schedules and seen anything I've missed? Please let me know if anyone finds DM30ACs in revenue service, especially on my beloved Oyster Bay line, so that I can come down and take that long-awaited direct direct to Penn Station.
11/07/99
Liked your imforative post. How did you color those letters on your computer?
Bill Newkirk
To color you must manually use HTML codes in your post. To get green, for example, use:
<font color="green"> TEXT </font>
From the portable weather center at the Marathon...
Hey, Todd and Bill, talking about colors and html, try my color quiz page at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/color.html
I've never understood why changing at Jamaica was so terrible. There are alot of electric trains that go to Bklyn where you have to change for Penn, its not just the diesels.
Life is far too short to have to change at Jamaica.
11/07/99
Changing at Jamaica is terrible because of the loss of the ONE SEAT RIDE! That's what commuters dread.
Bill Newkirjk
There were many times changing at Jamaica got me that one seat!!!
[Changing at Jamaica is terrible because of the loss of the ONE SEAT RIDE! That's what commuters dread.]
My heart is just breaking with sorrow for them.
Try standing out there when it is 5 degrees and the connection is 10
minutes late...
... and the previous train has been cancelled, and it's holiday season so half the passengers are carrying HUGE shopping bags and the P.A. is inaudible again.
I repeat: Life is far too short to have to change at Jamaica.
I loathe the place. Thank god the LIRR hasn't "rationalized" away the ability to actually board trains at Hunterspoint Avenue.
'Course, it might be a lot nicer to have a covered connection between the Flushing Line and LIRR platforms. Has that ever been considered/proposed?
Connection is late and it is a short train and guess where you are standing??
When I take my 3 yr old son to the city (mostly to relive my railfan childhood) he is never good at Penn with all the food stores & stands, croowds, noise, etc. So even if my train is a non-change @ Jamaica I still take the very net train out and wait at Jamaica. For a railfan Jamaica at rush hour has everything-M-1's, M-3's, Diesels, & Bi-Levels. Sometimes we even take the subway to Jamaica. Its alot easier now with the new Jamaica Center route, not having to walk from Hillside.
Also, Jamaica is decent, if not pleasant looking station. Madison Square Garbage Station is nothing more than a pathetic basement. I refuse to board or alight a train to or from the capital of the world in the basement of the UGLIEST sports facility in the world.
You never saw the Sports Arena in LA where the Clippers played until this year, No wonder why the Lakers and Kings moved in the 60s.
Oh, come on, the renovated LIRR part isn't THAT bad. I like the marble on the walls, it functions decently and they finally got the ventilation working right so the whole place no longer smells of fried food from the vendors. I'm not wild about all the plastic-and-neon storefronts, nor the big expanses of polished stainless steel covering some walls, but at least it's no longer an embarassment. The Amtrak/NJT part, OTOH, pretty much is, and although some of the renovations look promising, we'll have to see. The LIRR part at least has high ceilings for a basement.
No, it's not the old Penn Station, but nothing ever will be (including the proposed and mostly-funded new one to be built in the Farley P.O. Bldg).
I have to say that the LIRR part is nice, compared to some other places, but it's nothing like the original. I don't need to use Penn Station, and I never will, unless my life depends on it (somehow, I don't know how).
11/09/99
Mr.Royal Island,
Let's say you rode the LIRR going west and was to get off at Woodside as to avoid getting off at the Great Basement Station (PENN)and fell asleep but woke up when passing Hunterspoint Ave. Now you have to get off at Penn or would you opt to get off at West Side yard and tell the conductor you fell asleep !!
Bill Newkirk
P.S. Do you call it Madison Square GARBAGE because the building is round and looks like a giant GARBAGE can ?
Then I would get off at Penn, exit as quickly as possible and that's it. If I had to go someplace and due to schedule constraints (trains only hourly), I'd go to Penn instead of Flatbush of Newark. The last time I was there, I was coming back from riding PATH and the Newark Subway and I wanted to ride the NEC.
I call it GARBAGE because it rhymes with GARDEN and I obviously hate the facility.
It's a Universal Truth in transportation that one-seat rides are highly desirable--not peculiar to the LIRR.
Haven't seen the new schedules yet. I'll get a chance to pick them up tonight.
From what I was able to figure out off of the automated phone line, train 2737 is essentially the combination of the 7:21 Babylon to Penn non-stop with it's feeder from Speonk.
2738 is a little more interesting in that it combines the current 5:10 Penn to Babylon (stops at Jam, Amityville, Copaigue, Lindenhurst) with it's former Jamaica connection to Speonk. So, for the first time in a long time, there will be direct service from interior Babylon stations to Montauk branch stations. (i.e. a one-seat ride from Amityville to Patchogue).
It's an interesting time to be a scheduling-fanatic.
Chuck
Chuck,
Excellent analysis! That's exactly the kind of info that will be very interesting to note.
Has anyone seen a DM30AC being tested in Penn Station yet?
11/08/99
I heard second hand (not official) that on November 15th when the dual modes are in that all old diesel equipment along with the FL-9's and C-1's will be retired. Can anybody back me uip on this? Heard anything?
Bill Newkirk
Please, say it ain't so!!!!
I also noticed that, starting Nov. 15, there will only be one westbound AM and one eastbound PM train on weekdays that will use the Montauk branch through Fresh Pond to LIC. Currently there are two each way. All the other LIC trains go along the Main Line through Hunterpoint Ave.
Is there any way to tell for sure? On the current schedules if the LIC train doesn't stop at Hunterspoint it takes the Montauk route. But you never know, with the new schedules, the LIC non-stops might take the Main Line.
>Is there any way to tell for sure?
Probably not 100% sure, but I based my conclusion on looking at the LIC and HP Ave. schedules and noting which trains to/from LIC did not leave/arrive Jamaica at the exact same time as HP Ave. trains.
>with the new schedules, the LIC non-stops might take the Main Line.
I don't think there would be any reason to have a train travel along the Main Line through Woodside directly to/from LIC without stopping at HP. Why clog up the Main Line during rush hour when it is running at, or close to, capacity?
I just hope that, down the road, they don't decide to eliminate passenger service to LIC via the Montauk branch permanently.
I would think they would want to have the option of using the Montauk Branch for passenger, as this frees up a main line slot for other trains.
One thing I find interesting about the new schedule is that it answers a question I've been wondering about: there are no more slots available at peak hours for LIRR trains in the East River tunnels, so how are they going to add dual-modes?
Answer (painfully obvious): The new Speonk-Penn runs replace the electrics which used to be their connections at Babylon. This works OK for the morning train, but the evening situation should be interesting, since they're combining a Penn-Babylon express with a HP-Speonk diesel as a new bi-level diesel. So the new train will have to pick up the additional load of people who formerly took the diesel from HP or Jamaica, bypassing the electric altogether.
It looks like there'll be another historic change--the evening Penn-Speonk makes station stops at Amityville, Copiague and Lindenhurst (replacing the electric), Except for an odd weekend diesel making Freeport, this has to be the first Babylon Line service by a diesel in 30 years ot more.
One exception, the Friday night snowstorm in the winter of '82-'83. (Don't remember the date) I was a rookie cop working Midtown North. My car was in Merrick. Everyone from L.I. (car or train)slept over in the station house or at Studio 54 across the street. On Saturday morning they finally announced hourly trains on the Babylon Branch which turned out to be all diesel! So I took a diesel to Merrick and paid a towtruck to get me out of the drift filled parking lot!!!
IIRC, that was the snowstorm of February 11-12, 1983. I had a K car with front wheel drive and was able to bull my way out of the parking lot at Babylon and through the drifts.
It was the only thing that *&%%##@@*!! car was good at.
Oh, so you had one of those too? Our beloved '82 "UnReliant" wagon was a great little beast, when it wasn't in the shop. At the time my average annual mileage was around 35K, not including family travel (which was always done in the Country Squire), but I was only able to average 25K/year in the UnReliant. If it had only run decently I would have kept it forever. I chased many a steam engine (N&W 1218 and 611 mostly) in that beast, with my older son hanging out the passenger window with his camera.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You had an H&M K-car? How did you fix it to run on the road?
An H&M K-car would've been better. At least it would've last more than 50,000 miles.
There is a diesel stopping at Freeport?? When, and where does it go? Almost as strange as the 1 electric at East Williston.
During the summer of '98 (I think) a few diesels running on the Babylon Line (from further east) made Freeport to cover the stop made by Babylon electric expresses--maybe to help with the Jones Beach traffic.
Don't know if this was repeated in '99.
You really want strange, the first Oyster-Bay bound train in the morning stops at New Hyde Park, thought by many to be an all-electric stop, at 8:15! Yesterday, I wanted to get an early double-decker to Oyster Bay and attempted to board this train at Jamaica. It's STILL the old diesel! (Since this train is largely populated by domestic workers on their way to Nassau's Gold Coast, one has to wonder if the LIRR feels they don't DESERVE to ride the new equipment.)
One diesel from Port Jeff stops at Westbury weekend mornings at 6:05.
Apparently there were plans to electrify the entire OB branch back in the sixties, but the third rail only made it to East Williston.
No, East Williston was electrified much earlier. In Ron Ziel's "The Long Island Rail Road in Early Photographs" there is a picture on page 121 of one of the Gibbs MP-41 (Low-V Style) trains stopped at Mineola Station coming from East Williston in 1944. You can see the 3rd rails in the picture. The station looks pretty much the same except for the old cars and no Winthrop Hosptal parking garage. (and of course the Gibbs train)
If I remember correctly, in the sixties there was regular service to East Williston, I think hourly, alternating with the Oyster Bay Diesels.
Yes, East Williston was the end of LIRR main line electrification for many years.
Time has passed Oyster Bay electrification by. At least they're no longer trying to abandon it.
There's been some sentiment (on and off) to maybe try some light rail on Oyster Bay, considering it's already mostly double tracked, maybe as part of a line to the hub at Hempstead or through-routed via West Hempstead and Valley Steam to Far Rock.
But the LIRR is now absolutely hostile to any kind of light rail scheme using their tracks, or to giving tp jurisdiction over any of their system to another provider.
I always thought that the north-south light rail line from Oyster Bay down to Far Rockaway was a pretty hair-brained idea.
It might make sense to do it from Oyster Bay (or perhaps maybe only from Glen Cove) south into downtown Hempstead, as long as you maintain direct LIRR service between Hempstead and NYC. Of course, this means widening the right of way in Garden City and reactivating the stretch between Garden City and Mineola. Neither of these is likely in today's NIMBY environment, so you're left with maybe a Glen Cove to Mineola shuttle, probably for the sake of making LIRR connections and trips to the Nassau County courts.
The reason I don't think that there's much merit for the line south of Hempstead is purely location. The West Hempstead branch runs mainly through residential areas -- downtown Lakeview (one intersection) and Malverne being the only exceptions. There's not much demand there for north-south travel which isn't being handled by the frequent (by Long Island standards) LI Bus routes.
More of a problem is that the West Hempstead branch joins the Babylon branch way too far east of downtown Valley Stream to be of any real value. In order to bring the light rail into downtown V.S., you'd either have to take away some of the LIRR's right-of-way, or put down more tracks alongside the LIRR. Problem is, Valley Stream is already built-up enough that I doubt there's any space available to do it.
Going south from V.S. into the Five Towns would not only bring out the NIMBY's again, but also require an answer to the trade-off question: Are the residents of the Five Towns and Far Rockaway better served by having frequent rush-hour and hourly off-peak LIRR service into NYC or frequent all day service to Hempstead, Mineola and Glen Cove. I can't see how anyone would honestly answer that the latter is preferable.
North-South Light Rail would be a nice answer for Southwest Nassau County, but unless someone is willing to put it down over existing road lanes and exercise tremendous eminent domain powers it isn't going to happen. The space simply isn't there.
Chuck
I agree. It looks doable when you look at the maps, but I too think the ROW and volume of traffic/demand issues would kill it ... not to mention all those folks who would complain about having to CHANGE at Mineola, Hempstead & Lynbrook. By this I mean that they might scale back the project & replace the existing ROW vs. add to it.
Mr t__:^)
What I'd like to see is north-south light or commuter service over to the beach, and along the Ocean Parkway. If enough people used it, maybe you could drive in Nassau County in the summer. Yes, there's a bus, but like any bus it puts you stuck in traffic behind the cars.
Well, the idea of OB-FarRock light rail had a certain currency 20-30 years ago when it looked like the LIRR wanted to shed the involved lines. It would have been a way to preserve three lines and also experiment with new modes.
But now the LIRR wants to keep every scrap of line, so the idea wouldn't even get off the launch pad.
However, even that long ago, the LIRR resisted a more ambitious line takeover. NYSDOT was drooling over taking over the Montauk Line east of Speonk or Westhampton as a cheap way of extending Sunrise Highway to Montauk. At the time the rail line was in crappy shape. The LIRR said "no way" and somehow got it to stick and the line rehabilitated.
Also Suffolk Executive John V.N. Klein got the bug in his head to make the Ronkonkoma-Greenport Line into a busway, but that went nowhere.
[Also Suffolk Executive John V.N. Klein got the bug in his head to make the Ronkonkoma-Greenport Line into a busway, but that went nowhere.]
It pains me to say this, but the busway idea might not be half-bad. Ridership on the Ronkonkoma-Greenport line is pathetically low. So low, in fact, that during service disruptions one bus is more than sufficient to accomodate everyone. I know, the line is the LIRR's original one, and indeed is one of the oldest passenger lines in the country, but it's pretty well lost its _raison d'etre_. I guess the lure of driving to Ronkonkoma is just too much.
I was going to say the exact same thing, Peter, but I just couldn't bring myself to say it. Why the LIRR is flushing money down the Ronk-Greenport toilet is beyond me. I think they've fought and won tougher PR battles than eliminating that line would take.
Chuck
Wasn't there supposed to be a special plan in the works for a shuttle bus from Greenport to Orient Pt and another bus from New London to Foxwoods. Did they ever try it, if so is it still in existance or did it fall by the wayside. I thought that would be a great way to get there.
I have to see an underutilized commuter rail line, because I know that just leads the MTA to shift whatever money it can away from the TA. On the other hand, the "telecommuter" revolution might lead to more people living on the north fork and requiring occasional access to NYC. A bus means a two-seat ride.
One possible compromise is electrification to a great big parking lot in the vicinity of Riverhead, and abandonment beyond. Suffolk could pay for a light rail line on the remaining trackage, or the LIRR could provide a shuttle bus.
[One possible compromise is electrification to a great big parking lot in the vicinity of Riverhead, and abandonment beyond. Suffolk could pay for a light rail line on the remaining trackage, or the LIRR
could provide a shuttle bus.]
There have been proposals for electrifying as far east as Yaphank. As usual, LIRR management recites the old "no money" line. Who knows, if they say it often enough, people actually may start to believe them.
If they're getting dual mode locos, why would they have to electrify?
All in all, straight electrics are more economical than the dual modes or the straight diesels, both purchase and operation.
You might as well ask: now that they've got dual modes, why purchase any new EMUs?
[You might as well ask: now that they've got dual modes, why purchase any new EMUs?]
O.K., now that they've got dual modes, why purchase any new EMUs?
O.K., now that they've got dual modes, why purchase any new EMUs?
Because emus are endangered, and can't be exported from Australia.
Hey, I cut & pasted it directly from your posting!!!
Levity aside, I thought the answer was the same to both questions.
Dual modes are expensive, both to purchase and run, but they avoid the immediate line costs of electrification. The more service you run, the more the picture for electric improves, since the fixed costs of electrification are spread over more service and more passengers.
Also there is more work to make up locomotive hauled equipment than electric. Adding or taking two cars off an electric is no big.
Dual modes for Penn are a special case. The advantages of running dual modes into Penn overcome the expense, in LIRR's view: extending at least the possibility of a one-seat ride to every diesel line, possible elimination of one of the western terminals, and elimination of some connections. Connections are the bane of the LIRR, since they're schedule wreckers.
OTOH, if expanded service is warranted east of Ronk, it also warrants the fixed cost of electrification--new parking garages at (for example) locations in Medford, Yaphank, Riverhead (they don't have to be at the current stations) could absorb a lot of east end growth for years, relatively cheaply.
(New parking garages could absorb growth relatively cheaply).
The MTA MO is to wait until after development, when it costs 10 times as much to make an impromvement. Ie. waiting until the Yuppification of Dumbo to admit a Rutgers -- DeKalb connection is needed, then saying it will cost $2 billion.
[(New parking garages could absorb growth relatively cheaply).
The MTA MO is to wait until after development, when it costs 10 times as much to make an impromvement. Ie. waiting until the Yuppification of Dumbo to admit a Rutgers -- DeKalb connection is needed, then saying it will cost $2 billion.]
If the LIRR ever desires to expand service east of Ronkonkoma and build parking garages, they could avoid possible neighborhood opposition at Medford by relocating the station to the east. Once you get east of the station area, the LIRR line runs past about two miles' worth of junkyards (one of which burned spectacularly about a year ago). It's hard to imagine that junkyard operators would complain about railroad parking ... but then again, you never know :-)
Larry: Has the TA, officially, actually said that such a thing is needed? When and where?
(Did MTA say there was a need).
Yes. East River Crossing Major Investment Study, completed 10/97 but never issued publicly. It called for major investment, and got the deep six.
Yes. East River Crossing Major Investment Study, completed 10/97 but never issued publicly. It called for major investment, and got the deep six.
Gee. What else did it say/recommend? Were copies ever leaked to transit-beat reporters? Would it make a good news story even today?
I heard about it on the radio -- once. I never saw a copy, and never was able to get one. But our transportation division had a copy, and summarized the document in part one of City Planning's RE-study of the issue, which was also headed for the deep six.
Essentially, the MTA took the position that since the bridge was unreliable, it had to do something, but since it wasn't dead for sure, it shouldn't build a new tunnel. This connection would reduce the disruption of service outages, it concluded. It also recommended the two-way connection to the #6, and the Lawrence/Jay connection.
Essentially, from the state's point of view, its cheaper to demand that the city fix the bridge. From a one administration point of view, its cheaper to say this fix will work. You'll be long gone before the cracks re-appear, just like Koch and Dinkins.
Essentially, the MTA took the position that since the bridge was unreliable, it had to do something, but since it wasn't dead for sure, it shouldn't build a new tunnel. This connection would reduce the disruption of service outages, it concluded. It also recommended the two-way connection to the #6, and the Lawrence/Jay connection.
That would be adding the UPTOWN side of the 6 line at Bleecker to the Houston B/D/F station, which already connects to the downtown side?
I'd thought that was included in a past capital plan, but no work seems to be done. Any idea what that one cost? It seems the dumbest of current situations ....
(# 6 change uptown). I think the idea is to make improvements in the suburbs, while doing planing and design in the city, through 2004. Then the MTA will be too broke to make the city improvements. 20 years later, they get to hand out the design and EIS contracts all over again.
[That would be adding the UPTOWN side of the 6 line at Bleecker to the Houston B/D/F station, which already connects to the downtown side?]
That idea's been poking around for many years by now. I highly doubt if anything'll be done, especially since the increased use of unlimited MetroCards makes the transfer "free."
[Wasn't there supposed to be a special plan in the works for a shuttle bus from Greenport to Orient Pt and another bus from New London to Foxwoods. Did they ever try it, if so is it still in existance or did it fall by the wayside. I thought that would be a great way to get there.]
Suffolk Transit Route 92 goes from Riverhead to Orient Point. Many of the Hotels/Motels in Greenport have deals that include a bed & transportation to/from Foxwoods (incl. ferry to New London & bus (assume Arrow) to casino). Don't know if bus to Orient Point is special or they give you MC for #92.
Mr t__:^)
The LIRR did run a combination service, leaving Penn early, with guaranteed connections to the Greenport scoot, then bus-ferry-bus to Foxwoods, with similar return arrangements.
IIRC, the first run was mentioned in The Times.
I don't recall hearing any more about this and suppose it just died on the vine.
Maybe, but if you drive to Greenport that variation is very much alive, just try & get a reservation at one of the Hotel/Motel out there.
Mr t__:^)
Suffolk County Transit doesn't take Metrocards.
You are right ... I had ASSUMED and we all know what happens when you assume ! I just called them (SCT 516-852-5200) & the nice lady said that they WILL take a MetroCard "Transfer". So if you are continuing from LI Bus ask for a paper/mag Transfer.
Mr t__:^)
11/13/99
Maybe ridership will increase if this Raikroad Museum of LI in Greenport gets off the ground. If LIRR G-5s (steam) is up and running steam excursions out east the only way for city people to get there would be that scoot.
Bill Newkirk
They're going to need that line at least as far as Riverhead because home building is continuing farther and farther out.
Of course there's no business on the Greenport Branch--all the parking and access is at Ronkonkoma. They're planning to electrify to Yaphank. When they build some big parking garages there and/or at Medford, there'll be plenty of business.
[Of course there's no business on the Greenport Branch--all the parking and access is at Ronkonkoma. They're planning to electrify to Yaphank. When they build some big parking garages there and/or at Medford, there'll be plenty of business.]
Any opportunity to build parking garages at Medford may have been lost. There's a large vacant space just to the east of the station, which looks like it might have been an abandoned lumber yard, that could have been the site of a parking garage. But just within the past week or so I've noticed some trucks and other activity at the site, so it looks like it's being developed for some other purpose.
Well at a recent public meeting about the new schedules, Pendergrast(sp?) said he wanted to eliminate stops at the Hunterpoint station, so that would probably also include LIC. He claims only 200 people use the station a day. Though a petition was given to him signed by over 400 HP riders.
Well at a recent public meeting about the new schedules, Pendergrast(sp?) said he wanted to eliminate stops at the
Hunterpoint station, so that would probably also include LIC. He claims only 200 people use the station a day. Though a
petition was given to him signed by over 400 HP riders.
Serious? DAMN! The 7 train to the LIRR terminus at HP Ave is one of the great NYC insider tricks. And 200/day is a ridiculously, pathetically low number for, what, 7 or 9 trains a day? I've seen close to 200 passengers on the 4:44 train alone during summer beach-share season.
Even if every single one of those trains is replaced by bilevel through service from Penn, it's still a better experience to be able to board the train as it sits there for a few minutes rather than fighting the Penn Station (or Jamaica) horde.
Not to mention, what about all those folks who work somewhere in western Queens for whom HP Ave is much more convenient than taking the subway waaaaaaaaay out to Jamaica?
Grrrrrrrrrr. Damned LIRR management.
Not to mention the people who get off at LIC to take the ferry to Manhattan.
Both of them?
He's a product of the T.A. What do you expect?
[I also noticed that, starting Nov. 15, there will only be one westbound AM and one eastbound PM train on weekdays that will use the Montauk branch through Fresh Pond to LIC. Currently there are two each way. All the other LIC trains go along the Main Line through Hunterpoint Ave.]
I suppose this could be related to increased freight traffic along the Montauk branch. The line runs right through the Fresh Pond yard.
11/11/99
Shouldn't there be a high level platform at LIC for the bi-levels to operate there?
Bill Newkirk
[Shouldn't there be a high level platform at LIC for the bi-levels to operate there?]
There is. It's a short wooden platform, enough for one car and one door from a second car, and is located on one of the middle tracks near the west end of the yard. Getting to and from the platform requires a long walk right through the yard - quite an experience from a railfan point of view!
#2 You're operating a slant R40 on the Q between Prospect Park and 7th Avenue. Two railfans, are at the window. One says: " I would give anything to drive this train." The other says: " We must be doing at least 55 mph. " Ordinarily, you like railfans, but these two have been talking since Sheepshead Bay and they don't know anything about transit.
a) You should open your cab door and tell the first one to put his money where his mouth is.
b) You should take out the special stick um that you made just for this occasion, and paste it over the digital readout. Then open the door and show them that you are actually doing 75.
c) As you pull into 7th Ave station, blow one long one short one long and one short and have the police throw these nuisances off the train.
d) You should hand them a piece of paper with the website address of David Pirmann's SubTalk, and hope that they will go there and get an education.
e) You should turn up the sound on your Walkman and listen to an audio tape you made of November's Transit Transit show. Listening to this show always makes you laugh and forget life's irritations.
Note: The answer to practice question #1 was none of these. The correct answer was to alert the Coney Island dispatcher to lay your train up the F platform and charge admission to view the windshield.
the correct answer would be to f) while going full speed test the deadman by releasing hand pressure on the master controller having the train go BIE and your annoying railfans at the railfan window push their faces through the broken window.
now thats good clean fun!!
I say the answer is D
Chris. You asked if the correct choice is D. Choice D suggested giving the annoying railfans the address of this website. Now certainly, we here would all agree that this is the place to go for information and occasional entertainment about the transit scene. But we have to consider what the MTA's view on this would be. We are an unofficial Site. And at times there have been some transit employee troublemakers posting here who often cast aspersions on TA management. And what's worse there are others who ridicule Transit Transit, which is the pride and joy of MTA management. So to send those innocent railfans to a site where they might encounter some hot heads and malcontents might give these railfans a picture of the MTA not in keeping with the reality of the transit scene, which is so well documented by the monthly Transit Transit program.
While I am at it, another person suggested that the correct choice would be F - which was to release the pressure from the controller, throwing the brakes into emergency, and consequently causing the railfan's heads to go through the storm door window. This answer is definitely not correct, as it would cause damage to MTA equipment, requiring the train to be taken out of service, and causing unnecessary damage to the MTA sterling on time performance.
afterall the concern wouldn't be about the customers puss going through the storm door glass but about the brakes locking up causing flat wheels and worn brake shoe pads. God I do love the First Amendment!. God Bless America!
Yesterday I took my second solo railfan trip to NYC, which wasn't as great as the first.
I didn't take PATH like I had planned to, mostly to get in as much sleep as I could on nthe train, so I went all the way to Penn.
This time, they had FunPasses at the Hudson Newsstand there, so I got one and took the 2 to Times Square to get the N to Astoria.
On the way, I decided to get a new subway map from the visitors center, so I went. I was surprised at all the construction going on in Times Square.
I decided to forgo the N and take the E to Jamaica Center, which I did, but there was a G.O. on it and it ran local all the way. I had the front window the entire time. I found the entire line gloomy, save for the express stations. The new extension looked pretty nice.
I took the J back to Manhattan and finally experienced the S curve.
GOOD LORD!! Why? Why are there so many signals placed along an already slow, bottlenecking section of the line?
I rode all the way to Essex St. The bridge ride was OK. It was slow going at the tunnel entrance because of construction.
I waited at Delancey/Essex for the F. But after 20 minutes, I left and found my way to Grand St and the D.
Taking that across the bridge, I finally rode the Brighton Line. Truly impressive. I saw the Beverley/Cortelyou one block gap and all. But what truly impressed me was the stretch south of Sheepshead Bay. Remarkable ocean views and a nice, sunny ride all around. Stilwell Avenue was truly great also. I spent some more time looking around the platform area and the overpass over all the tracks was spectacular.
From there, I took the Sea Beach to 36th Street. The B was running on the express tracks for another G.O. The line itself was kind of drab, sort of like the unwanted sibling of the Brighton Line. I took some photos of a mural at 36th. I would have ridden the R back to 95th, but I noticed someone who had followed me since Grand Street on the D, then the N and back again on the R after I spent 20 minutes at 36th. Deciding not to risk anything, I quickly jumed off and got the rerouted B.
Once we got back to Stilwell, I took the Culver line. Because of another G.O. all F trains terminated at Hoyt/Schermerhorn. Not wanting to pack myself on a crowded A train to the Rockaways, I walked two blocks to the IRT station at Hoyt Street. And what should I get there but a crowded 3 train!
I took the 3 to Franklin Avenue and asked directions to the Franklin shuttle. The person I asked didn't know there was a new connection and told me to ride back to Atlantic and get the D. Knowing better, I walked to the western end of the platform and found the free transfer.
The station still needs some paint, but it loks pretty good. I rode that to Fulton Street. The Franklin/Fulton station looks good. There's a stained glass window near the IND elevator, which I took down to the outbound platform.
And what do I get? A crowded A train. I was on my feet until ENY. Upon reaching Rockaway Blvd, lo and behold, I find yet another G.O.! No A trains across the trestle. Shuttle buses to the Rockaways and shuttle trains between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park. My judgement faling me, I took the shuttle bus to B 98th Street station and a shuttle across the wye track to B 67th. I was unmpressed, but will come back on my next trip if there's no G.O.
Once we returned to Rockaway Blvd, I took the A back to Penn(the run was all local, mind you) and went home!
I would have enjoyed the trip had I made a bigger food budget and not ridden that A shuttle.
I checked the MTA site the day before for G.O.'s but I didn't see any of the ones there that I experienced first hand.
Suffice it to say, I'm not a fan of G.O.s:)
BTW, I saw those new MVM's. They look more like ATM's then anything else.
You could have used one to buy a Fun Pass.
It looks like you need a credit card to operate one of those things, which I don't have.
Cash, ATM or Credit cards. They're much more convenient than trying to find a store that sells Fun Passes. They're also a great source of Susan B. Anthony Dollars (I don't buy stamps often enough).
Nice report, Steve.
Indeed, the F was running on the "A" from Brooklyn to Manhattan, switching over just before West 4th Street (just like the old JFK Express used to do). I used the rerouted F service much of the weekend to go between WTC and Rock Center. And the local A replaced the C all weekend too.
There was no 7 service between Queensboro Plaza and Times Square too. I read the G.O. posted about it, but they did not say why? What are they doing on the 7 line? Tunnel work?
That must've been crazy, since alot of people who use the 7 even on the weekend will have to take an already crowded E or F, or N train at Queensboro.
I think they are doing work at Grand Central among other things. Which brings up something else which I was squawking about a few weekends ago: too much at one time. No #7 and no R service to/from Manhattan and Queens on the same weekend.
Subway Steve, sorry to see that you got a BIG run-around on your NYC subway excursion.
I hate to admit it, but for the casual out-of-town railfan, the best opportunities for riding the system w/o G.O.s and the ability to catch trains frequently would be to make a visit during the week and NOT weekends. First of all, trains run more frequently on work days so you won't have a long wait for a train, and secondly, most G.O.s are are set for weekends, when the system already has longer waits between trains.
Obviously, to avoid crowds (and get the coveted railfan window) I suggest riding between the hours of 10 a.m. and 3 p.m. on most lines to avoid the morning and evening rush hour commuters.
Hopefully, your next trip will be more enjoyable.
subDude
Hopefully so. I plan to return in December, hopefully before Christmas but more than likely it will be the week after Christmas(I have off 24th through the 4th, longest Christmas vacation on record in Philly, and they extended it a day because of all the Y2K crap).
I'll be taking more phots of the Franklin shuttle, Rockaways and the new MVM's.
We also had a nice G.O on the good old No.6 Pelham Line. Uptown No.6 trains were running Express from Hunts Point to Pelham Bay. There where some R29'S and R 36'S running.
AS for so many signals especially the slow grade timers on the Crescent st to Cypress Hills s turns is simply to allow more trains to close in on the train ahead at a controlled rate. If fewer signals were used there'd be a larger gap between trains especially during peak hours so travel during off peak nothing is really lost to your experience..
Didn't the geniuses who put in all the signals(there were 3 or 4) figure this will slow up the entire line?
Does the TA plan to improve this?
I rode the subways both days this past weekend, and sure feel sorry for any tourists or irregular riders who tried to consult a map. These were the reroutings I encountered:
-Bus replacing 'A' to Far Rockaway; All-peninsula shuttle; 'A' to Lefferts running local all through Manhattan AND Brooklyn replacing 'C'. (Center express platform open at Penn Station overflowing with annoyed, confused patrons, however!)
-'F' split service at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. It was quite a sight seeing two out-of-service 'F's on each outbound track and two in-service 'F's on each Manhattan-bound track. This certainly played havoc on what was left of 'A' service.
-Half the 'L' trains running only between the Junction and Canarsie. There was an out-of-service Slant signed as such on the unused Broadway express track in the middle of Chauncey Street.
-No '7' between the Plaza and Manhattan.
-As a companion the above, no 'R' between 57th Street and Queens. Good coordination, huh?
-Heard the P.A. at Park Place mumble something about the '1' being replaced by bus service between 96th and Dyckman. I couldn't get the whole message due to a loud violinist on the platform.
-Uptown 'N' and 'R' express from Canal to 34th. What could have been a nice express run was marred by men on OUR tracks all the way.
-E' and 'F' running local through Queens. Well, I've come to accept this as a permanent change not indicated on the maps or signs.
-I didn't know about the '6' express in the Bronx or the Manhattan-bound 'B' on the 'N' out of Coney till I read about them here.
All weekend I saw people looking at station maps in utter confusion. I kept advising any I saw not to go by the map, what with all the re-routings, and tried to direct them to their destinations according to the changes. It was extremely difficult ("Take the 'R'- no, that doesn't go to Queens. Go downstairs for the '7'- no that doesn't go to Manhattan- take the 'C'- no, that's not running, use the 'A'-")
It's good that work is being done, but so much at once?!! Even the platform guards couldn't keep up with it.
P.S: Want to do Newark subway on Thursday, assuming weekday schedules are in effect for Veterans' Day, while the original equipment is still in use. It is, isn't it?
Sorry, no can do.
Being a lowly high school student, most weekdays are bad for me(save for holidays) and my money's funny, too.
I expect to go back again some time before Christmas(especially if that test R-142 shows up) so maybe then.
As for the G.O's, even TO's were confused. When I was riding the A back to Penn, I overheard a TO talking to a friend about all the chaos(the R and 7 being put out simultaneously really screwed everyone up).
And the problem for me was, just about every line I rode had some type of reroute or shutdown. I really wanted to do the West End line, but that wasn't running. I wanted to go to Main Street, but there was no 7 out of Manhattan. I wanted to do the Jamaica trestle, but there was no going for that either.
I consulted the subway diversion schedule on the TA site the night before and half of those G.O's weren't even posted! I learned about most of them passing through TS/42nd to get the E since I couldn't get the 7.
If I had done the 1/9 like I planned, I would have probably never gone on another NYC railfan trip again!
My biggest gripe was waiting 20 minutes at Delancey Street for an F that never came(where the heck were the workers anyway? I saw some on the Brooklyn-bound A north of Jay Street, but they couldn't have been the ones causing all the ruckus!)
I've learned my lesson-don't trust the TA.
Welll....that is precisely why I schedule my major railfan trips for WEEKDAYS. The only boo-boo I ran into today was on the "A", about 6PM. We got off a death-marching R44 (no faster than 20MPH anywhere on 8th Avenue), hoping to snag an R38 and suddenly all we saw were "D"s. Also - the Fulton/William IRT station in Manhattan - no way to transfer to the other lines, despite signs indicating so. So what's a short walk over to B'way? Fooey on them for keeping Fulton/Nassau Street's entrances closed until 1600 hours! What, pray tell, is the reasoning behind that? They had signs indicating a mid-day G.O. on the "M" (NO TRAINS AT THIS STATION) but Chambers Street was full of them, with the first s/b Bay Parkway train departing around 3:20. The "J" was up and running too, no 24-minute headways; even made 20 MPH over the Willy B.
Wayne
Also, I noticed too much confusion on 4th Avenue.
I saw R, N and B trains on the express tracks(more R's than anything else) at 36th Street.
Why is all this attention being given to the comparison between nazi SS and shuttle designations. From the first time that this designation was used in 1967 until dual letter designations were phased out in 1985 or 1986, nobody even thought about it. Fifteen or so years after the SS designation for shuttles was dropped (and it wasn't due to it being associated with nazism), everyone is making such a big deal over it. SS also stands for Steamship. It also stands for Social Security and supersonic. We give too much credit to that demonic butcher, the little sign painter from Austria. Phooey!
I believe that the TA designated shuttles SS because the word shuttle begins with S and a shuttle is obviousely a local.
11/07/99
'I believe that the TA designated shuttles SS because the word shuttle begins with S and a shuttle is obviously a local"
Incorrect! Before there was (SS)Shuttle , there was (S) Special , this appeared on the first R-1's
Bill Newkirk
'I believe that the TA designated shuttles SS because the word shuttle begins with S and a shuttle is obviously a local"
Incorrect! Before there was (SS)Shuttle , there was (S) Special , this appeared on the first R-1's
Bill Newkirk
Bill, you misunderstood what I said. I know that S-Special came before SS-Shuttle. What I said was that the word "shuttle" begins with the letter "S", and a shuttle is obviousely a local. Because locals carried double letter designations, hence "SS".
Well that's true, but to Jewish people, the term "SS" has one major, sinister meaning. Nobody said it was the reason the MTA shortened it to S. It was just an observation.
As I noted in an earlier comment, you're probably right, it wasn't changed out of any sensitivity to those of my faith. But I appreciate your concern for the feelings of others. That too often seems to be a rare thing in this day and age.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is the first I've heard about it.
"S" was assigned to "Special." I don't believe there was an IND designation for "Shuttle." When the TA began to use a letter designation for shuttles, I'm sure they used "SS" to distinguish it from "S-Special."
The other divisions didn't use any special designation for shuttles. Franklin was "7," Dyre Avenue was "9," Third Avenue (if you consider that a shuttle) was "8."
IIRC, the 42nd Street Shuttle carried the word "Shuttle" or nothing at all when it first ran with R-types.
The TA changed shuttle from "SS" to "S" when it dropped all double letters.
As to "SS" connoting Naziism, I never heard of Jewish people worrying about it until just now. Nor did I hear anyone complain of "KK" = "KKK" until just recently.
There was a recent case (last couple of years) in which I understand that the few Jewish people remaining in a German City were upset because a new tram service was to receive a particular route number (I forget what it was). It seems that the number had been unassigned for years, but it used to be the number of the tram line which ran into the ghetto during the Nazi years. Many Jews rode that line as a first step to being sent to the Camps and, as we know, most never returned.
The City officials relented and didn't use the number, but that was a very specific line in a very specific city with a very specific connotation.
The R 1-9's did not have a reading for "Shuttle." When service was extended to the Rockaways shuttles carried blank or E signs,but this was not an E service. Starting in 1962 "HH Fulton St Local" was assigned to the Rockaway Shutles. Later this was changed to "HH Rockaway Shuttle."
Larry,RedbirdR33
I believe that side signs for the GC Shuttle said simply "Shuttle" until the first signs with the colored disks appeared. There were not separate versions for each shuttle, so there was simply one version with a green disk that said "SS-Shuttle"
11/07/99
"SS" ALSO STANDS FOR SPRING SWITCH !
Bill Newkirk
I guess that I am probably the last person on the site to get his copy of the new NYC Subway calendar which I finally got today at the big Railroadiana Show. I think it is great and January gets my vote for favorite. September made me laugh, knowing how beloved that model is to everyone who posts on this site. Great job, Bill! I think I must have gotten your distributor's last two copies, since one of them was his display copy. He told me to write you about another copy of 1999. After reading 2000, apparently I can save myself the trouble, Right?
I picked up my copy at the Transit Museum store at Grand Central. That shot of the Park Ave. tunnel was intriguing. I presume it's the original ROW of the southbound local and express tracks which link the shuttle with the lower Lexington Ave. line. The R-10 photo is great, as is the Triplex shot.
I asked over a month ago, I live 5000 miles away so I have to order one by mail, where can I do this?
Order from...
Newkirk Images
P.O. box 237 Dept. C
Copiague NY 11726-0237
Postage charges... 1---2.50, 2-4---3.20, 5up---4.50
Hope this helps!
Ask Bill Newkirk himself when you see he's on line.
But the best model was pictured in the picture for September!
11/08/99
Karl B,
Thanks for the nice comments. You can E-mail me at the URL below.
Bill Newkirk
newkirkimages@msn.com
There are a couple of G.O. that I need info on..........
1. F and G line: Smith-9 closed for elevator repairs. The G is going to 7 of Church Av?
2. 7 line: What is the problem between QBP and TS?
3. 3 line: No service in the Lenox tunnel??????
Thanks,
3TM
Grand St. Transfer to the B and D across the platform. The M103 up on the upper level. The next station will be Chatham Sq. Transfer to the M9 and M22 up on the street level. Stand Clear of the closing doors..............
I meant 7 or Church Ave?
3TM
Chatham Sq, transfer to the M9 and M22 up on the street level. Bklyn Bridge next.
From what I understood from the MTA's WWW site, the G is terminating as it normally does at Smith-9th, except there it won't stop or have passengers on board. The first stop heading to Court Square and the last heading to Smith-9th is Carrol Street.
Since I was at Smith & 9th Saturday, the G terminated normaly. One platform conductor cleard the 4 car OPTO train. For those unlucky pax detraining at Smith&9th you had to WALK down. Only one esculator is opened and it is operating in the UP direction (best choice there).
The intresting thing in this weekend's GO's was the F train. It was running in two sections, CI to Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Hoyt-Sher to Jamica. The intresting part you could see from the G, F trains were turned on the center track of the G Line (I think it was Bedford-Nostrand??). There were three F trains on the G line when I was riding the G.
To those of you out there interested in the doings in DC, the Washington DC Metro Page has been revised. Many new photos have been added to the Red, Green, and Blue Line pages, plus revised/updated station descriptions (including new station names, where applicable) and new train pictures as well.
Thanks to Dave Pirmann for his assistance in putting up all the changes!
Enjoy,
Wayne
Is there anywhere on this site or elsewhere that I can find a picture of the original Bronx Park spur and station?
There were 2 of them, one for the original IRT line and one for the now-gone Third Ave. el. The Third Ave. spur branched off the line somewhere north of Bedford Park Blvd., I think.
I was refering to the original IRT Bronx Park.
I have not been able to find a single picture of either station on this website. Both disappeared in the 50's, so it might be hard to find.
You might find this hard to believe but so help me it's true. In November, 1947, my second grade class from PS1 in Queens took a field trip to Bronx Park. I thought it was in another country, so far north. There was a song out then called "Once I Remember When I Was a Bum." It was about a Dodger fan who was a Bum and fell in front of Yankee Stadium and was put in the YS jail. All I knew about the Bronx was that the Yankees played there. All went well until we were about to leave the park. Those of us who had to use the restroom went in there and there was this big ugly and nasty looking park attendant who watched our every move. When he thought I was too far from the urinal, he pushed and told me not to soil the floor. He happened to wearing a Yankee cap. When I asked him he was a fan of theirs, he
answered with a question__"Are you a Dodger fan"/ As I said yes, I was sure he was going to haul me off to jail. From that time I never thought a damn about Bronx Park and even less of the Bronx.
Fred YOU ARE WEIRD!!!!!!!
Brighton Beach Bob: My wife of 29 years seconds the motion. I admit that I'm a different kettle of fish.
>I have not been able to find a single picture of either station on
>this website
There aren't any. Pictures from prior to the 60s are hard to come by.
-Dave
I found some Black and White Photos that I took in the 50s, when I figure out how to post them thru my new scanner I wil, give me some time. I have some Hi and Lo Volts, B and Triplex, a Yonkers Trolley at 242nd St & Bdwy. I think they were from 1955 when I got my Kodak Pony Camera and I was 13 so the photos are not too good, also a couple of the ENY Yards
Dave: Since you are the head honcho of this august body of weirdos, can you tell this one if the IRT trains of 1955 carried numbers, letters or didn't carry any innsignia on the front. I'd appreciate an answer. I remember coming home from Yankee Stadium a couple of times and I could swear there were no letters or numbers on any of the trains---much unlike those in Brooklyn and Queens where I lived and hung out.
The R-12,14 and 15 were already in service by 1955. Maybe the R-17 too. All of these carried the modern IRT numbers (except the 9).
The low-V's didn't have front destination signs, except for the world's fair ones.
In 55 the 1 Broadway-7th Ave Exp New Lots to 242nd. The local was still lo volts 6-Lex Pelham and 7 Flushing Line are the ones I remember, everything else was still Lo and Hi Volts
I know the MTA Archives has little, which annoys me. Has anyone ever explored the archives of the Museum of the City of NY to see what they have transit-wise?
The 3rd ave spur branched off just north of Fordham Road, there
is a picture of what was left of it in the early 70's at
www.palter.org/~subway/73-04-02/07.jpg
Bill
I think that thew Third Avenue Spur followed Lorillard Place, which I think is the original path for Third Avenue. What was Third Avenue before the El? Did it exist?
3rd Ave and the Bowery, The Bowery goes back to Dutch Days, thats how it got its name
That's in MANHATTAN!!!! We were talking about the Bronx Park spur! The Bowery Road was the original road to Albany. It traversed Peter Stuyvesant's farm. That's how it got it's name. You don't have to tell me how major thoroughfares got their names.
It is 6:05am and I am about to set off on another adventure, this time with my good friend Simon Billis, whom I shall meet at Pennsylvania Station at 8:00AM. We also plan to meet up with subway-buff along the way. It looks like another day of plying the rails and enjoying the views of railfan windows. A report will be posted after we're done.
Wayne
Hello,
I've applied for the upcoming Motorman's examination NYMTA is giving on January 8, 2000. Is there a study guide floating around? Any help you could give me would be greatly appreciated.
Steve
Is there a source for useful information that can be used as a study aid for the up coming Subway operators exam?
Have you read the 6 practice Questions here?
Seriously, I wish that some of the guys here who have knowledge about previous exams, or who know who is making up this one and what their bent will be, or who can suggest study materials would come forth.
You might try asking the MTA if they can provide any details. Or check the Chief? You might call the ERA on Mondays 5 - 7 PM at 212-986-4482. They might be able to steer you to someone who could give you some idea of the exams intent. I really don't know anything.
Have you come by much information?
I've found no useful information. There are a couple of books but, they are had to find.
Steve
Gents, Ladies, can you list the selection process (and training) leading to the exam for t/o in NYC??
I would like to compare it to the exams here in London for London Underground.
Promotion to train operator here, is direct from a guard (conductor)
at present but with the grade of guard being withdrawn from the year end, candidates will have to be either station assistants (token agents!)
or Direct recruits into the grade. From January 2000, for the first time in it's history, Londons Underground will be FULLY One Person Operated (OPO), bringing an end to the grade of guard introduced in
1863!.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
If there isn't then there is a whole money making market that needs to be explored. I know in the Police Department whenever there is a promotional exam such as sergeant or lieutenant a bunch of companies come out from the woodwork. Several printers come out with complete updated reproductions of the NYPD Patrol Guide. Then there are about 5-6 preparatory schools that five weekly classes in catering halls and hotel banquet rooms for $20 a class, paid at the door. Each school has usually 2 sessions per day (morning & night) every day in various locations throughout the metropolitan area to accommodate different work schedules & resident locations. Then the week before the test they usually give all-day cram courses for $50 to enter the door.
Is there a source for useful information that can be used as a study aid for the up coming Subway operators exam?
Have you read the 6 practice Questions here?
Seriously, I wish that some of the guys here who have knowledge about previous exams, or who know who is making up this one and what their bent will be, or who can suggest study materials would come forth.
You might try asking the MTA if they can provide any details. Or check the Chief? You might call the ERA on Mondays 5 - 7 PM at 212-986-4482. They might be able to steer you to someone who could give you some idea of the exams intent. I really don't know anything.
Have you come by much information?
I've found no useful information. There are a couple of books but, they are had to find.
Steve
Gents, Ladies, can you list the selection process (and training) leading to the exam for t/o in NYC??
I would like to compare it to the exams here in London for London Underground.
Promotion to train operator here, is direct from a guard (conductor)
at present but with the grade of guard being withdrawn from the year end, candidates will have to be either station assistants (token agents!)
or Direct recruits into the grade. From January 2000, for the first time in it's history, Londons Underground will be FULLY One Person Operated (OPO), bringing an end to the grade of guard introduced in
1863!.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
If there isn't then there is a whole money making market that needs to be explored. I know in the Police Department whenever there is a promotional exam such as sergeant or lieutenant a bunch of companies come out from the woodwork. Several printers come out with complete updated reproductions of the NYPD Patrol Guide. Then there are about 5-6 preparatory schools that five weekly classes in catering halls and hotel banquet rooms for $20 a class, paid at the door. Each school has usually 2 sessions per day (morning & night) every day in various locations throughout the metropolitan area to accommodate different work schedules & resident locations. Then the week before the test they usually give all-day cram courses for $50 to enter the door.
Over a dozen of us gathered at New Haven this weekend to replace some RxR ties. For this guy who spends t-o-o much of his time sitting in my present job it was a pleasent change, and Saturday couldn't have been a better day for it. We were broken up into about three crews:
Crew one was pulling spikes & loosing bolts holding guard rail (We were doing this on a curve); crew two was pulling out the old tie with a back hoe & pushing in the new one; I was part of the four man crew three who got the new tie snug under the rail and then jacked up the rail so we could put back the plate. My crew was realy ready for the lunch trolley when she arrived. About mid afternoon the crane care and a newly formed crew started up the air compressor and began nailing in spikes.
As dusk arrived the last of the spikes was put in. The 1929 vintage trolley from Montreal headed back first (only two were aboard). Next went the "Shunter". It's 1920 vintage switcher/shop tug. A small four wheeler that has had a wooden box added to make it our tool car. I stood next to pilot Jim on the open high platform and hung on for dear life as we flew down the line (actually her handle wasn't even thrown all the way). The rest of the crew rode the crane car back.
If I had to do this for a living it probally wouldn't have been as much fun OR maybe it was the group of SubTalkers who were amoung the attendees. Thanks to Amtrak Josh from Baltimore for showing us Gandy Dancers just how to do it right !
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, Thurston, Stef, Jim and myself all got down-and-dirty for some rail tamping duties done the ol' fashioned way (brute strength and with a sturdy shovel).
We got plenty tired and grungy looking by evening, but we all realized that our work will be greatly appreciated when it comes time to running equipment down to Short Beach. Our work was tie replacement on the first curve on the way to Short Beach just before the old Quary crossing.
We just luck out with some excellent weather conditions for that kind of work.
I for one enjoyed lending a hand to a worthy institution.
SubDude
The institution was glad to have you. Because of our work, the RxR will live to see another day...
Cheers,
Stef
Thanks guys for coming up. Now you can honestly say you've
worked in a real track gang!
You are operating an R-68 northbound on the D heading into Columbus Circle station. You notice that about midway into the station, Motor Instructor Green has been tied to the rails and that his clothing is on fire. He is waving his flashlight sideways in your direction. Unfortunately, you've had a recent run-in with Green. He wrote you up or not moving fast enough into a station as well as for failing to have a red rose in your lapel which is now part of the standard train operator's uniform. What should you do?
a). Inform Command Center of a trash fire on the tracks.
b) Pull up to Green, following rule 37N, meanwhile asking all able bodied men on your train to report to the front car. Upon stopping the train several feet from Green, you open the storm door and ask the men to help extinguish the fire.
c). Realize that he is signalling you to maintain your speed and proceed into the station, otherwise you know he will write you up again as soon as he gets out of the hospital.
d) Realize that you are hallucinating from some bad drugs that you had in the 60's, and proceed into the station normally knowing that there is nothing on the tracks.
e) Make an announcement on the PA system asking if there are any physicians, ministers, or new age healers who might be able to give Green immediate treatment.
The answer is "B"
I'm glad to see we have a student willing to learn. There is a problem with choice B. It said that the motorman should ask all able-bodied men to report to the front car of the train. Since you are operating an R-68, you would have had to release the door locks on the storm doors so that men on board would have been able to report to the front car. Otherwise choice B is an appropriate answer.
Keep up your studies and I'll be proud to watch you advance on the job. We will soon be starting an exam prep for Superintendents.
But B of course!
Does that include handing out kneepads for prospective Supt. candidtes?
OK, I got one:
You're operating a northbound B train out of Stillwell at approx. 3:17 PM. Upon entering the Bay 50th St. station your train is invaded with 1000 screaming high school students. Hundreds are holding the doors open so their "friends" can get the train, even though they are walking very slowly up the stairs.
Do you:
(1) Pull out you fully loaded AK-47 that you keep especially for this situation and show the students your impression of a disgruntled postal worker?
(2) Ask, beg and plead with the youths to allow the train to pass
(3) Radio the tower to have 2 of the hundreds of cops that patrol the Brighton line sent over to assist you
(4) Announce that the train is out of service, discharge the train, dump the brakes, and pull out of the station, then sneaking up to the 25th Ave. station, go back into service, laughing at the poor motorman of the 15:27 Bravo who now has to deal with this problem.
The answer is (4) Announce that the train is out of service, discharge the train, dump the brakes, and pull out of the station, then sneaking up to the 25th Ave. station, go back into service, laughing at the poor motorman of the 15:27 Bravo who now has to deal with this problem. But i like the idea using (1) Pull out you fully loaded AK-47 that you keep especially for this situation and show the students your impression of a disgruntled postal worker? Just Kidding Fellez
Or you can tell the MTA management about how SEPTA handles this; there is actually an employee on the station who tells the operator when to close the doors. This guy is at the southbound platform at Olney where students from Central and Girls High Schools get on after the school day is over.
Actually I have done #4. It's the best course of action.
5) Use the bypass. Possible same end result as (1) but no ammo cost.
How about
5. After closing as many doors as possible walk through the train looking for fault lights. Push the offending people onto the platform and key the door closed. After all the doors are closed, have the station attendant announce that the train is being delayed because of mechanical problems with the doors. Walk back along the outside of the train, carefully inspecting each and every door. After the people who were holding the doors and their friends have been waiting 20 minutes or so, pull out, but don't open the doors first :)
Forgive me if this has been discussed before, as you know I only read my own posts. But those giant machines look like some sort of filtering equipment. It seems like they are going to quite a large expense. What is it?
Currently they are removing Asbestos (sp?) and those machines provide the secure "atmosphere" to do the work.
I have always thought this was tush-backwards thinking that would have been the first thing they removed but this is the Manhattan Bridge we are talking about. Employment for the contractor and his great grandchilden.
Thanks Lou. I didn't even think of asbestos. I thought it might be lead paint that they were removing. Come to think of it, was the asbestos applied to the original bridge structure or was it part of the transit side of the bridge.
Is the job they're doing an expensive operation?
I normaly don't visit the site on weekends, you just caught me catching up on over two and a half days of posts >G<.
They are removing lead paint as well as asbestos. Not sure if they are doing both jobs at the same time.
They are also RE-PAINTING some parts I see.
11/08/99
They are removing ASBESTOS from the Manny B ? Since when is asbestos used on an outdoor structure? I though asbestos is an insulator.
Bill Newkirk
No, those are Vactors and they are removing Lead Paint, at least that's what I saw today.
Wayne
Well, the machine's don't actually remove the paint, the paint is removed from the structure by sandblasting, needle-scaling or scraping, and the machines you see create a negative pressure inside the enclosure so that none of the lead escapes. As the machines pull the air out of the enclosure to create the negative pressure, they also filter it, but for the most part the paint gets swept up from the floor of the containment.
It's the lead paint. There's little to no asbestos on the bridge. Why would you need it? The only place it could be is in the insulation on the wiring.
-Hank
Asbestos was also used to protect vulnerable areas from fire damage, as asbestos cannot burn. Not sure if any was used on the bridge.
My entire kitchen ceiling was made of asbestos tile, circa 1920. I didn't realize it until after I and a friend removed it last year when we remodeled my kitchen.
Also, most of the BMT elevated stations built from 1914-1922 had their canopies covered with similar tile. There was a big stink a few years back when the TA was removing them at Seneca and Forest Ave in Ridgewood, as they didn't take the neccesary precautions.
Steel doesn't burn, either. Paint does, but you need a fire to get VERY hot (did I say VERY? I meant VERY, VERY, VERY hot!) before it does any damage. Witness the Third Ave Bridge Monday morning.
-Hank
The canopies are a substance called "Transite". You can recognize a canopy with transite because it is the red canopy (Blue/green at 125 on the 1). Many have been replaced with metal canopies and the Western end of the J line and the Canarise Line from Easdern pakrway to the end are on the list to have new canopies. When stations are renopvated, one item to be addressed is replacement of canopies.
The transite canopies can also be seen on the IRT from Jackson to East 180 except for Intervale. The 4 to Woodlawn and the 6 also have these canopies. The # 1 North of Dyckman have already been replaced.
No, all of those IRT canopies in the Bronx are wooden, except for ones that were destroyed by fire. This substance you are talking about seems to be unique to the BMT. (Full of holes too. I couldn't figure out why they put up the new lighting on the Bway-Bklyn local stations without changing those crumbling roof panels. If it is asbestos, the air around there must not be good.)
Let me try to clarify my *opinion* even on the BMT the underside (the side you see when you are waiting on the platform and look up is wood. The side you'd see looking down from an overhead view such as Chopper 88 is the transite. This is often "red" such as is seen on the Burnside shot of Lo-V 5290
As far as the J line, they are planning on replacing the canopies from Marcy (already done) to and Including Eastern Parkway Complex(this one is underway now). The web site states that the lighting is to remain
Protection from pidgeon droppings. We don't want tohose cables to fail :)
--Mark
I got on an M, at DeKalb, heading to the Myrtle Ave crossover. The front window on the R-40 was clean. I never really paid attention to the large number of blue lights in the Montague Tunnel, especially underwater, but they seemed very intense and unshielded. I was wondering if they cause discomfort to the Train Operator. It seemed that they were all high intensity lamps, as against a softer incandescent light bulb. I also noticed that the regular tunnel lights were well shielded and did not cause a problem.
No, I have no problem with the blue lights. Although some are exceptionally bright. I do have a problem with alot of the unshielded incandescent (sp?) light bulbs tho. At a distance they can appear to be yellow signals, and when you come whipping around a corner they can spook ya into thinking a red is just around the corner. Others are right on top of a signal and make it hard to see what the signal aspect is at a distance. Other than that, I tend to not look at the lights themselves, so they really don't bother me.
A side note to heypaul... your "practice questions" are really funny. Thanks for the laughs.
Later,
Chris
Thanks for the fast info Chris. Hey you and Lou have really given me some fast answers. Maybe this is a good time of day to post questions.
Thanks for letting me know that you're getting a laugh out of the Train Operator's Practice Questions. Sometimes I feel like I'm the only one enjoying myself. But don't encourage me Chris, there's no telling what I'm going to do next.
Again many thanks. heypaul
There are some places near the entrances of stations where the blue lights appear, at a distance, to be directly over the yellow signal. In some of those cases, the blue looks green making it look like you have a diverging route where no switch exists. One such situation is entering Kingsbridge Rd. northbound. It could be confusing for a newbie.
What happens if you see a red signal and try to stop but miss the light and stop a little beyond it where you can't see the light? How do you know when to proceed?
Also, isn't it hard to see the signals on the elevated trains when it's light outside?
They're visored. Do you have trouble looking at traffic lights?
My understanding is that, "if you see a red signal and try to stop but miss the light," you've already run the signal and your brakes are in emergency. You have to radio Control for instructions on how to proceed.
-- Tim
Actually the Montague Tunnel has used the same greenish white mercury bulbs used in NYC streetlamps until the mid-1970s. I don't know why that tunnel uses those bulbs. The tunnel between Lex Ave and Queensboro Plaza uses flourescents. Other tunnels use simple incandescent bulbs.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I collect picture postcards from the 1940's and earlier. I have a postcard of the Williamsburg Bridge that must be pre 1940's. It shows the bridge spanning the river, but I cannot tell which side is Brooklyn or Manhattan. The domed Bank on the Williamsburg Side is not evident. Any ideas?
[I collect picture postcards from the 1940's and earlier. I have a postcard of the Williamsburg Bridge that must be pre 1940's. It
shows the bridge spanning the river, but I cannot tell which side is Brooklyn or Manhattan. The domed Bank on the Williamsburg Side is not evident. Any ideas?]
Are any docked ships visible? As far as I know, the Brooklyn side of the East River had more docks than the Manhattan side.
I'm thinking of doing the Metro North to Bridgeport to Ferry to LIRR thing. How close is the Port Jeff LIRR station to Port Jeff the Port?
Walking or Cab?
Thanks
It's about 3/4 mile to 1 mile mostly downhill from Port Jeff Station to the ferry at Port Jeff Village.
I've never walked it, and I'm not sure if sidewalks are continuous between the two points, but there are almost definitely cabs at Port Jeff Station.
Both ferry and Port Jeff itself have changed enormously in the last decade or so. Port Jeff is still primarily a summer town, though, in terms of restaurants, shops, etc.
Lou: Cool trip idea. Post times & dates on here, you might get some company (if you want it)?
Well it is getting towards winter, I looked up the prices too. The ferry is $12 for walk on plus that amount for MetroNorth and LIRR.
Maybe when it gets warmer too. I also noted that the Ferry is going to a two boat schedule. Looking at the timetables it is tough.
Metronorth service to Bridgeport is hourly, and LIRR service is worse then that. It is going to take careful planning and hopefuly no service disruptions.
The ferry's interesting any time, but it is much more enjoyable in warm weather, when it's pleasant enough to ride on the open top deck. Even a 50-degree day is too cold for that - after a few minutes out in the wind, you'll feel like Walt Disney in his liquid nitrogen tank. I'd definitely wait for late spring.
As the LIRR Port Jeff line is the weakest link of the whole trip as far as frequency, schedule, etc. I think it would be alot better to make the reverse trip ie. LIRR 1rst, then ferry, then MN. This way you won't get stuck taking a cab ride to Huntington or Ronkonkoma if you miss the train at Port Jefferson.
I couldn't do that because the LIRR starts running eastbound to Port Jeff too late. I wanted to ride this whole thing in the summer.
I agree with Peter & others ... wait for Spring. I've done that trip.
I suggest you bring the family. At LIRR Port Jef. you can also take Suffolk Transit #60/61/69 (62 doesn't go all the way to water).
There's shopping at the water and a resturant that you can sit on the dock for a light lunch (it's pricy but a great spot to wait for ferry)
I'm not sure exactly how far M-N is from the ferry at Bridgeport(I drove with my top down).
You could also go to Greenport on LIRR, then Suffolk Transit #92 to Orient Point for ferry to New London, i.e. SUBmarines, Mystic, etc.
Shore Line East (& Amtrak) connect with M-N at New Haven.
Mr t__:^)
[I'm not sure exactly how far M-N is from the ferry at Bridgeport]
Stairways to the station platform run right from the entrance way to the ferry dock.
It's been a while since I've been in Bridgeport. I think the direct connection Amtrak-Ferry may be something new.
I don't know if its better now, but that part of Bridgeport did not have a great reputation. The less you need to walk around there, the better.
[It's been a while since I've been in Bridgeport. I think the direct connection Amtrak-Ferry may be something new.
I don't know if its better now, but that part of Bridgeport did not have a great reputation. The less you need to walk around there, the better.]
I don't believe the stairways to the station platforms are new. They probably date back to the rebuilding of Bridgeport station back in the 1980s. What is new is the vehicle entrance to the ferry dock. Vehicles used to enter through a low-clearance underpass just south of the station platforms. The stairways to the station are off that entryway. There now is a more roundabout route for vehicles past the Bluefish baseball stadium.
Downtown Bridgeport is definitely on the gritty side, but I wouldn't say that the area near the station and ferry is dangerous. Even quite late at night it's quite busy. On a historical note, the multilevel parking garage across from the station is one of the very first such structures in the United States.
The Port Jefferson Station is located in the village of Port Jefferson Station (zip 11777) while the ferry is in Port Jefferson(zip 11776). Definitely better off doing the LIRR leg first, because it is at least 3/4 to one mile - all down hill. If you do CT first is a long uphill and if you are short on time its a long wait if you get pooped going up hill since the LIRR doesn't seem to run to often out in the "boonies". However check the NOV 15 new timetables...or timetables closer to departure...they're adjusted every few months....
Perhaps the PJ branch will get direct weekend service into Penn once the dual-modes are fully operational.
A question was raised yesterday asking whether there is Internet Access in the Bellevue Psychiatric Hospital. Although our customers cannot send messages to the outside world, we do have one day room with a monitor that is tuned to SubTalk. Our customers especially enjoy following the posts on SubTalk. Frequently they recognize people who only recently were also staying here. Our people especially enjoy the posts of heypaul, as he gives them confidence that there is the possibility of a meaningful life even after a long stay here. He is our staff favorite too,and we are very proud of the progress he has made. Lately, he's been walking very closely to the line. But as long as he keeps his thorazine infusion pump full, and as long as nobody on SubTalk mentions that place near the Canadian border where newly weds used to go, he will be fine.
A suggestion to all railfans. Please do not interpret what follows to mean that there is any connection between being a rail fan and mental illness. Have you ever considered getting a medic alert bracelet and noting on it your interest in transit? If you should have an episode during which you make the sounds of an R9 air compressor, it will help the doctors properly treat you.
Again, keep up the good work, and there'll always be a light on in case you're in need. Doctor Howard, Doctor Fine, and Dr. Howard --- Chief Residents.
[Lately, he's been walking very closely to the line. But as long as he keeps his thorazine infusion pump full, and as long as nobody on SubTalk mentions that place near the Canadian border where newly weds used to go, he will be fine.]
You mean Niagara Falls? Ooops! I didn't meant to say that, please disregard it completely!
NIAGRA FALLS!!!! SLOOOOOWLY I TURNED. STEP BY STEP, INCH BY INCH , .......
Thanks Peter for ruining months of painstaking work....
You know the really great thing about that TV routine, was when Costello went into the jail cell with Sid Fields dressed up as a bum. The bum said to Costello:" Mine is a said story, would you like to hear it?" Costello said : "No" The bum went right into his story anyway. But as silly as Costello was supposed to be, he knew right from the start that this was something he didn't want to know about.
centimeter by centimeter, micron by micron.....
And why DOES Doctor Scott have 7 forks?
What the #$@^ is an "und"?
(sorry)
-Hank
Slowly I turn.......
Does anybody know when the next ones are coming out?
What are all the cars assigneds to the N? I saw Slant-40s, 32's and 68's.
Did I miss any? Why does the N run such a variety?
At least two consists of R32's were seen on the R today, along with at least two R46's on the E. No other unusual sightings to report outside of just those.
N had mixes of Slant R40, R32 and one R68, also a Regular R68 (the 2900-01-03-02 bunch was among them) was seen on the B, although I have seen cars such as those there before.
Wayne
There is at least one consist of Slants out of service at Concourse yard for flat wheels. I expect that there may be 32s on the Q in the AM. Jamaica's hold count was high enough to cause some more 46s on the E and 32s on the R in the AM also.
This past Sunday early morning (4:00 am) there were at least two trains of R-46s in revenue service on the E.
That explains what I saw today at about 2:45 pm at Seventh Avenue (Manhattan) - there was a mixed consist of out of service R-40's, with the last two cars of the consist being R-32's. The R-40's were signed up as Q's, while the R-32's were signed up as N's. I'm not sure, but there may have been more than 10 cars is the linkup. As a side note, what were R-40's doing in the Concourse yard to begin with? As far as I know, the only places they run are the Q, N, L, and, at least when the Williamsburgh Bridge was out, the M. As none of those lines go anywhere near the Concourse, how did those slants happen to wander up there?
subfan
It may have ran on the B Line on the weekend.
Yes, but if they were on the "B" on the weekend, they'd have been bound for 21st-Queensbridge. In any case, I am sure that Steve will make sure their sore feet are tended to.
At 59th Street-Columbus Circle, northbound local track towards the north end, there is an awful frog in the rail at one joint. Every train passing over it produced a loud report. Maybe they should solder up this little problem before the "B"s and "C"s begin to get flat wheels too.
Wayne
There is a similar problem on the southbound 6th. Ave. track, about halfway into the 34th St. station.
Speaking of frogs, did they ever address the one on the Brooklyn-bound track in the 14th St. tunnel? It was located at the start of the upgrade to Bedford Ave. You'd hear a loud ku-ching whether you were on a train of BMT standards, R-7/9s, or R-42s. I would imagine it's been taken care of, since I haven't been through that tunnel since 1970.
There was a frog on the southbound express track at 42nd St. back in those days as well. Every A train would report as it pulled in; I could even hear it from the mezzanine.
There is one about halfway down the platform on the downtown 6th Ave. express track at 34th street, and it's been there for as long as I can remember.
Also, there were 2 just south of 125th St. on the uptown Lexington Ave. express, which you'd here quite well as a train sped over them. Now with those wheel detectors, you can barely hear them at all.
There are problems with the Coney island Wheel Truing Machine. Mine was running 24 hours Monday and most of Tuesday. With wet rails and leaves falling, lots of skid-flats to contend with.
Why Were There R-38 Cars At Coney Island Today On the B Line Around 140 PM.
Good question. Maybe the lardbuckets were developing flat spots as well, or maybe they were just plain out of breath.
HELLO.
I AM A TRAIN DRIVER ON THE LONDON "TUBE" AND ME AND SOME COLLEAGUES WERE DISCUSSING OUR WORKING CONDITIONS WHICH ARE A 35 HOUR WEEK MAX WITH NO OPTION OF OVERTIME AND £26,500 PA ($40 000) AND WE WERE WONDERING WHAT THE CONDITIONS ARE IN NY, IVE HEARD YOU GUYS CAM MAKE UP TO $100 000 DOLLARS WITH OVER-TIME.
THANKS !
We work minimum 40 hr weeks. 96 hours max. set by Federal law. A max of 6 days a week. Minimum 8 hours a day.
On average, I would say a 45 - 55 hour week is the average. An 96 hour week is extremely rare as the TA doesn't want to pay all that OT.
Work Train Operators are really the only ones who could possibly get the 96 hour week as they are with their work train for 16 hours a day on the weekends quite often.
Pay starts at $42,000 (as advertised by the Civil Service exam application). We get time and a half for OT for anything over 8 hours in a day.
$100,000 I believe happened only once in the recent years... May have happened more often years ago but not now. The only way to do this would be to live in the system. Working 16 hours a day, 6 days a week, no vacation, no sick days, work all holidays, and kiss alot of ass to get all that OT. And NEVER see your family.
$60,000 with alot of OT is more common.
But believe me... after 8 hours on the train... you really just want to go home not work another 8.
On the other hand, LIRR or Metro North T/Os makes like $48,000 to start, and the head Conductors start at $52,000. (this is according to a C/R I know on LIRR.) As for their hours, etc... I am not sure.
Later,
Chris
Here's an article worth looking up. This PDF file at
http://www.isoservices.com/isoservices/CSR-Org/Newsletters/99-10.pdf
is the newsletter of the Cincinatti Street Railway, Inc., and their Oct.
99 issue features an article with photos documenting the attempt at
building the never finished subway in Cincinatti, with pictures of
tunnels and stations without tracks. Sound familiar? Enjoy.
Its a great article. If the ROW runs under Downtown, I'm surprised there is no push to revive the project. If nothing else, one could run trolleys on streets then down into the tunnels at modest cost. If these were connected to park'n-rides and the airport, it might help Downtown Cincinati. Unless decline is so advanced, parking is so cheap and the roads are so empty, that everyone might just as well drive.
Its a great article. If the ROW runs under Downtown, I'm surprised there is no push to revive the project. If nothing else, one could run trolleys on streets then down into the tunnels at modest cost. If these were connected to park'n-rides and the airport, it might help Downtown Cincinati. Unless decline is so advanced, parking is so cheap and the roads are so empty, that everyone might just as well drive.
In fact, the idea has surfaced from time to time. Considering the relatively small size of downtown Cincinnati, it's actually a surprisingly dense and active downtown and a light rail system would be a welcome addition.
However, Cincinnati is a very conservative city and not given to spending vast sums (or even modest sums) on public works projects. But who knows... Never say never.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
> If the ROW runs under Downtown, I'm surprised there is no push to revive the project. If nothing else, one could run trolleys on streets then down into the
tunnels at modest cost. If these were connected to park'n-rides and the airport, it might help Downtown Cincinati. Unless decline is so advanced, parking is so cheap and the
roads are so empty, that everyone might just as well drive.
<
Actually that would never happen. For one, the tunnels are incomplete and they don't go anywhere of interest. There is currently a serious proposal to build a single line of light rail from the suburbs to the airport and there is serious NIMBYism going on even though the ROW is a moderately used freight line. Besides, Cincinnatians are more preoccupied with such pressing issues as what sort of barrier to erect around the landmark fountain downtown while it is under renovation. The fact that gridlock is slowly beginning to set in on the city and is predicted to increase drastically in the next 5-10 years means nothing to the residents of that fair city. As for downtown, the city planners have this mentality that if they build large public facilities (museums, stadiums, parks, theatres, etc), people will flock there. So far there has been so much disagreement as to what exactly should be built that the only progress made is many parking lots (which aren't really needed). Downtown has become a ghostown after 5PM on most days except when special events go on. The relatively new performing arts center is having trouble drawing new shows.People are increasingly staying in the suburbs (which are starting to resemble Detroit's) and short of a miracle, I don't see that trend changing anytime soon in a city that chooses to build two new stadiums (one for a losing football team) over funding an increasingly poorer school system. Which is sad since the city could actually have a vibrant downtown.
Mike
A former Cincinnatian living in NYC
"Failed" "City Planning" is redundant.
NYC is saved by the fact that while fools call me up so say if their business is permitted by zoning in the space they have already rented (of course not) most ignore the rules and, if required, pay a few bribes. Almost everything that happens to revive areas of NYC is illegal, because the people involved in the political process are against any sort of change. The infrastructure more or less works because it was built pre-1960, when the city was run competently.
Meanwhile, the City Planning profession holds symposiums on the "new urbanism" ie. how to write rules to force people to live how the used to live before planners wrote rules to force them to live differently.
Hopefully we'll have a real winter this year. Is the TA ready? In the blizzard of 1996, the TA had a plan -- store trains underground, and run service in the underground parts of the system. But we riders didn't know about the plan, and it wasn't on the radio. I found out when I went down to the station.
Bus service was trashed, since many routes ran on side streets and the city didn't plow them until the snow melted. A better plan would have run buses on major streets that did get plowed -- even if they usually don't have bus routes (Ocean Parkway) to connect to the underground subways.
What's the service plan in case of a blizzard?
I got no clue but about the plan but, where the heck did they stor the trains from Coney Island Yard?
In fairness to the MTA, or at least to the guys who run subways and buses, they have all kinds of alerts or snow condition actions that they put into effect. I think on the outside lines, they will run light trains to keep the tracks clear. They have snow heaters on switches. I think they will go around and spray alcohol on the 3rd rail to keep in from freezing. As unresponsive as the MTA may be, there are still people in operations who try to get a job done and protect their own rear ends from condemnation. Sanitation gives priorities to bus routes and if I am not mistaken the MTA has their own trucks or buses that will salt the bus routes. I don't remember what happened in 1996, but if it was a tremendous storm then there are limits to what the city or the MTA can do.
In fairness even Transit Transit probably will have a show after a big storm showing all the workers happily clearing snow from the platforms and later relaxing by building snow men and having a snow ball fight. ( Why do I have to constantly knock that show? )
In 1996 the S.I. express buses were running on Hylan Blvd the very next day after the Sunday-Monday snowstorm. The SIR should have shut down but instead ran trains pulled by it's work diesels, which made no sense because the trains were without heat or lights. Running bus service along the route would have been better. The SIR has since acquired (from the LIRR?) one or two diesels equipped with plows to clear the tracks in the event of heavy snow.
Another factor that is never realized is that WE do care about the service we perform to the city of NY. I didn't become a union rep so I can slow down trains and buses. That is not the bottom line of a rep. It is a by-product of doing business with the civil disobediency of both the few rotten apples that be, whether in uniform or suits and ties. I find very few personel that come out saying they hate passengers or really hate their jobs. In fact I like my job as a train operator, I dislike some of the upper and some lower level management I work for but I learn to live with it without the clashes that cause friction.
Without passengers, there would be no need for the amount of train operators and conductors utilized today. More passenger means job security for existing crews, of which doesn't exist on freight due to furloughs caused by reduced trips. More trips means future hires for anyone taking an exam. Although the TWU is fighting the open cometetive T/O, I know in the long run, someone in need of a good job with medical benefits will find one here, even in the evil clutches of the MTA's Department of Subways.
The last thing we want to do is agitate passengers but we never seem to get them on our side. The last time I had a train delay, I was cussed and even spat on because uniform personel are on the front line while suits and ties are hidden from view doing nothing. I read one post on this site complaining of service at Times Square when that poor kid got stabbed to death on the #2 line. The dispatchers and superintendants never made an announcement that the train ran local. Is it our fault we don't know but somebody's right to assault us while performing our jobs? That is one of our beefs for demanding a raise. I don't expect a passenger to feel sorry for me making $21 an hour but I know I deserve more considering the abuse I get not only in the field but from the field as well. If I could have gotten more passengers to demand better work conditions for their train crews, we might not have to strike. Im not talking about the tips we used to give our garbagemen on Christmas, just some political support or even a thank you for a job well done. I read the editorials about the conductor who screwed up and how we shouldn't have the jobs we do but I rarely note a thank you. If we are fighting a battle all alone and the passengers complain and the MTA goes to the paper and states the workers are illiterate and can't pass exams, you shouldn't blame us for any actions because our backs are against the wall. I'd give the shirt off my back to see a passenger walk into a Dispatcher's office and comment on how well his/her ride was today or "please thank that conductor for keeping everyone informed". Comments like that do not go unnoticed.
The bottom line is we need our passengers but we are battling a real enemy right now. A political regime swinging a bat at us called the Taylor Law and our employer using it to hide from progress in real collective bargaining that should have been made years ago. Privatization is slowly creeping in and will take over this shop if the Metropolitan Transportation Authority gets their way and one of the few options we have left after years of distress is to close the shop, even if it does hurt the people we represent the most, the citizens of the City Of New York.
Sounds like me a few years ago ! I became a shop steward to look out for my colleagues (and myself too). Didn't always get a thank you from the members or the customers, but I knew I was doing something of value. Management didn't like me very much because I always argued a grievence based on facts vs. imotions (won a lot of times too). And never felt bad for the company if I won.
Now I'm on the other side, still care about my colleagues, now they're employees ... still fight a greivence based on the facts ... try not to make it personal ... still like my job.
Mr t__:^)
As someone who has lived outside the city, I think the lack of respect issue is real. There is an attitude of contempt in this city, shared by "liberals" and "conservatives" alike, toward those who do not have a college diploma and work in a management/professional job. In terms of respect, there seems to be little difference, in the eyes of some, as to whether you work in a store or with your hands, or are a drug dealer or welfare recipient.
The Conservatives blame the poor for this attitude, but it comes from the top down. When I left New York, age 16, no college educated parent my friends knew would think of allowing their child to work in a McJob. It was beneath them! In Tulsa, every kid had a job. Conservatives think the poor deserve the humiliation of a non-professional job, but Liberals think that everyone should be able to become a lawyer (ignoring the issue of who will make the trains fun and get the burgers fried). And the poor pick up on this, and also refuse to work in non-college jobs.
This is just not the case elsewhere in the country. If anything, people elsewhere do not respect learning enough. But it really affects our economy -- the New York school system is set up to train lawyers, professors and Wall Streeters, but to leave everyone else with no skills at all. That's why all the non-professional jobs that require any skill at all are held by immigrants.
Conservatives think the poor deserve the humiliation of a non-professional job, but Liberals think that everyone should be able to become a lawyer (ignoring the issue of who will make the trains fun and get the burgers fried). And the poor pick up on this, and also refuse to work in non-college jobs.
Best typo I've seen in a WHILE. Who *will* make the trains fun? ;-)
Seriously, though, I agree with you. This is one reason I made sort of a point of sending an alumni update to my college, letting them know that I'm now working part-time as a light rail train driver. (I need to send a new update to let them know I'm getting on there full-time as of 1 December.)
There's nothing shameful about working in a trade rather than a professional job; in fact, in some ways I think trade jobs are more demanding -- for example, if I make a mistake on my current full-time job as a software consultant, it's likely to be a typo or an incorrect screenshot in a piece of documentation. Not that serious. As a train driver, if I screw up -- well, worst case, people can die.
Who deserves more respect?
-- Tim
Here I go defending the school system, even though I have a lot of problems with the system also. In terms of preparing students for blue collar work,
there is a high school for students interested in working in transit. I think there is coordination with the TA and the students are prepared for jobs in Transit. ( They should also have some classes there for people interested in doing Transit Transit. )
Speaking about this high school, what has been their success in getting young people into jobs in transit?
Thinking about it, there are also high schools that specialize in Automotive Repair, Aviation, as well as some of the technical specialized schools who prepare a lot of students for sciences and medicine.
I know guys who went to Transit Tech and Automotive High school.
The Transit Tech guy was studying diesel mechanics... as last note he was working for transit, and the Automotive guy had his own repair shop. On a whole... the Automotive High is much better in placing students.
On a personal note, I went to Aviation... now work for Transit... hmm...
Shortly after I graduated, the school became a zone school (forced by the city to take special ed, criminal, and cut out kids). It lost F.A.A. accrediation and is now just a teaching school prep for College of Aeronautics (from what I am told).
Of the 425 some odd in my graduating class, only 2 were working in the airline industry 5 years later (some 4 years ago). One in baggage, the other drove the shit truck.
A once prestegous(sp?) school down the tubes. Ranked #1 in the city some 20 years ago.
Later,
Chris
[As someone who has lived outside the city, I think the lack of respect issue is real. There is an attitude of contempt in this city, shared by "liberals" and "conservatives" alike, toward those who do
not have a college diploma and work in a management/professional job. In terms of respect, there seems to be little difference, in the eyes of some, as to whether you work in a store or with your hands, or are a drug dealer or welfare recipient.
The Conservatives blame the poor for this attitude, but it comes from the top down. When I left New York, age 16, no college educated parent my friends knew would think of allowing their child to work in a McJob. It was beneath them! In Tulsa, every kid had a job.]
Oh, I don't know. The "college snobbery" you describe is (or _was_, see below) real, but saying that it's largely limited to New York is another matter. It certainly existed in Connecticut when I grew up there in the 1970s. Anyone with sufficient literacy to sign a college application was expected to attend. And this was in Waterbury, a Joe Sixpack city, not some puffy suburb.
College snobbery may be on the decline simply because college has been cheapened. Not in a monetary sense, of course, but in the sense that anyone who wants to go to college, can and usually does. A college degree is no longer any guarantee that one is intelligent or hard-working. I suspect that a backlash has developed, so that a non-college-educated person with a highly paid, skilled job is seen as more sophisticated than the typical burger-flipping semiliterate B.A. holder. Not to mention a whole lot wealthier. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying by any means that all young people with college degrees are semiliterate and flip burgers for a (meager) living. Most of them don't. But the fact that some are in the category, however few they may be, has contributed to a cheapening of the college experience.
As far as your comparison of Tulsa and NYC is concerned, I can think of a couple things. First of all, there probably are ample jobs available for high school students in Tulsa. That's not true in NYC, with its huge surplus of unskilled labor. Students have to compete with immigrants for entry-level McJobs. Another factor is that 16-year-olds in Tulsa, indeed almost everywhere outside NYC, either have or want to have cars. They often need jobs to pay for them - even though Mom and Dad usually supply the wheels, teens frequently have to pay for gas and the extra insurance costs.
Today, unless it's a Phd in quantum mechanics from MIT, a college degree means othing as to how smart/stupid you are. All it proves is that mom and dad could afford for you to show up for class for four years.
[Today, unless it's a Phd in quantum mechanics from MIT, a college degree means othing as to how smart/stupid you are. All it proves is that mom and dad could afford for you to show up for class for four years.]
How true. Things have gotten so out of hand that people who are, to use the current euphemism, "learning disabled" can attend college and earn degrees (I don't mean any disrespect in saying this, I'm just pointing out what actually happens).
Depends on your definition of "learning disabled". My youngest, currently an eighth grader, has Asperger's Syndrome (high-functioning autism). He requires special educational services because of his condition, which primarily affects his ability to deal with certain social situations and with stress. Will he go to college and earn a degree? I hope so - certainly he has demonstrated the basic academic ability, and his IQ has been measured in the top 0.1% on a standardized IQ test. He simply learns and relates to life differently than the rest of us. His goal is to work in the movie industry as a producer of monster films, preferably for some organization like Tojo Studios (for those who don't recognize the name, they are the creators of Godzilla).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was using "learning disabled" in its euphemistic sense, namely a person of very low I.Q. who simply lacks the brainpower to learn. Sending someone like that to college is doing him or her a disservice.
<York is another matter. It certainly existed in Connecticut when I grew up there in the 1970s. Anyone with sufficient literacy to
sign a college application was expected to attend. And this was in Waterbury, a Joe Sixpack city, not some puffy suburb.
College snobbery may be on the decline simply because college has been cheapened>>
Oh, it's like that in the NYC academic high schools as well. When I was at Stuyvesant, as a joke, my friend told his guidance counselor he wanted to go straight to work with the Sanitation Department after graduation from school, and skip college. Since that would have ruined Stuyvesant's 100 percent college placement mark, the reaction by the counselor and other school administrators was pretty funny.
What year did you graduate. When I graduated (1976) there were one or two people who did not go on to college. At least, not immediatly.
In 1998 (when I was a sophomore) .1% or 1 person went into the armed forces (enlistment, not academy) and .4%, which is 3 or 4 people, were OTHER. Nobody went to employment. In fact, of all people, only 1 went to a 2 year college. Everybody else, including GED graduates, which only 4 people did, went to a 4 year college.
On the BSS Broad Ridge Spur (maybe the express, I am not sure) I have noticed a major mess up in the schedule: the line is not beefed up to peak headways until right after the rush from Central and Girls High Schools are over. How should I try to change this:
1. Bring it up to Central's student association, have them not understand what I am talking about, vote on it anyway, and not do anything.
2. Ask an operator
3. Ask someone at Fern Rock (the main yard)
4. Email SEPTA
5. Go into their main headquarters and ask to speak to a BSS official about this in person.
You'd have an easier time getting SEPTA to subsidize Acela.
Seriously, though, if you got enough people around the Olney area where Central and Girls High are, you may get a response(most likely more buses). I'm sure even they would help out students.
And my school is three blocks from the Spring Garden station, so that would interest me too.
Do you use Olney station?
Yes, I use Olney Station every day, and so do a large per cent of the people who go to school with or near me. Actually, other than this, I am very impressesd with BSS service. It always leaves at the same time each day, even though they don't even print the timetables (better than other Philly rail services). In fact, they are so good that I usually know where I will pass trains going the other way. Also, express trains frequently attain speeds of up to 55-64 mph.
...or write to GM Leary about it. I've done this on occasion and gotten results. Very often, I've found, the day-to-day operating personnel and street supervisors don't want to think 'outside the box' and you need fresh eyes on a situation. I did this a few years back - for years, on my bus (27), there were two AM trips scheduled 2 minutes apart (not a typo). Before these, the headways were fairly regular at 8 minutes and after it went down to 7. These trips operated every day on time but very often the follower had to 'dog' it to stay not too close to the leader. Street supervision 'solved' the problem by having the follower wait a couple of minutes at one stop on Ridge Ave, usually with a decent load of passengers, who would usually get a little upset at sitting still. It took a couple of letters to GM Leary to get this straightened out. Now, the headways are consistent on the schedule at least.
You can check out Septa's web site at www.septa.com - they do show timetables for the BSS and El and other trains. Great little resouce - I don't need to keep tons of timetables at my desk if I want to explore!
-Lee
Whew! Some trip! Simon Billis, subway-buff, and myself spent 11 hours out there today, hitting all four boroughs, traveling everywhere from Mott Avenue in the Bronx to Flushing-Main Street to Coney Island to Canarsie and many points in between.
Simon and I rode the Canarsie Line end to end, aboard the redoubtable Slant R40s #4402 and #4432 (and later R42 #4765) and found two very pleasant surprises therein:
1. The Union Square station has had its tile band scrubbed, cleaned and reglazed right down to the shine. Seventy-five years of dirt have been wiped clean away. It is quite lovely to look at, with all of the original colors shining through, every little detail is visible. Maybe they can do the same thing at 6th Avenue (PHEW!) and Bedford Avenue (DOUBLE PHEW!)
2. Meanwhile, over at 8th Avenue, an even greater surprise awaited. There on the south wall, the first NEW Canarsie Line tile band in seventy-one years is taking shape. It is faithful to the others in design, complete with blue hexagon icons (which DO say "8"), a crazy-quilt pattern (sandy yellow, dark green, lime green and brick red), all the little details (except for the diamonds) are in place. It is beautiful. Simply marvelous.
Prior to our jaunt on the "L", we rode the new Franklin Shuttle and returned to Manhattan, winding up at Chambers Street, where Simon and I reviewed conditions. It appears that they attempted a band-aid approach, painting the ceiling brown. Guess what - IT'S PEELING AND LEAKING AGAIN! Don't they ever learn? There is a more ominous sight, visible only to those aware of it - some of the columns on the northbound platform appear to be sprung. There are fissures in the ceiling near the stairs. Marble pilasters in the closed platform area are actually cracking. This does NOT bode well. However, at the north entrance (Foley Square), which is now reduced to crossover status, there appears to be an attempt at some root renovation. It's a drop in the collective bucket. We photographed some of the worst ruins.
Something went haywire with "A" service around 6:00PM, there was talk of an "incident" in Brooklyn (a 12-9?) and we got stuck with the slowest damn R44 I've had in quite some time. We bailed at 59th rather than suffer a crawl up CPW. In Columbus Circle IRT, a subway musician was doing the tango with a female dummy to a salsa beat. It was quite a hoot. He goosed "her" repeatedly ("she" had a face that could stop a clock). We repaired to 96th, and came back via #2 (#9015).
While out at Main Street-Flushing, some wise-acre in the token booth hollered at me when I took a picture of the lovely new "wingies" tile they put up (it's not grouted yet). So I handed the camera to subway-buff, who turned in a perfect picture of the "Happy World"
mosaic over the entrance (subway-buff gets credit for the picture!)
On the way back into town, we noticed the 63rd Street connection work is progressing nicely, and they are near done on the Manhattan Bridge as far as track work is concerned, with the last 50 yards now in place. They are making busy work there, removing led (sic) paint.
The "Q" was running express today, both directions! NO G.O.'s! Halleluljah! We dusted #2672 and his brood *AGAIN* with #4230 roaring down the Brighton Line, topping out at 42mph. RD335 (ex.#5965) was sunning herself at the Coney Island "D" platform, we took two pictures of this aging 49-year-old beauty. Would somebody please straighten out her storm-door window?
Hot dogs, cheese fries at Nathans, good friends, Redbirds, Slant R40s,
IT DOESN'T GET ANY BETTER THAN THIS!
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
Sounded like a great day. Next time, I should explore Coney Island in depth.
I would have loved to see the tango partners at CC/59th. I could use a laugh this week.
Wow and what a day. It took a complete 24 hours for me to recover except my feet which are each carrying a blister. I saw the best and the worst of the Subway. The best is all the construction work which is rapidly rolling back years of neglect. The worst is Chambers on the JMZ It is a sad hole in the ground, the pride of the BMT reduced to a crumbling dark and dismal place. We can all hope that the powers in charge see fit to undertake repairs which by my judgement will mean almost total rebuild.
Lots of express riding was the order of the day and we were not dissappointed, but I have to say that yesterday (Wednesday) while travelling between Union Square and Grand Central we touched 49 mph. I was able to see this as the motorman had the cab door open. I think this may be my fastest ever run.
Anyway I am back in the UK now and its back to reality.
Very many thanks to Subway Buff, Wayne, David, and the staff of the MTA for making my Subway Tour No5 so enjoyable.
Simon
Swindon UK
I was in a similar predicament two weeks ago. I could barely walk at the end of my marathon day on the subway, although in my case, my knees were killing me. All was fine the next morning. At least my sister didn't suspect anything out of the ordinary when I got off the train in Millburn, NJ.
Next year, I'd be interested in taking in the Canarsie line end to end. Or at least from 8th Ave. to Broadway Junction; we covered the easternmost part on our tour. I haven't been through the 14th St. tunnel since 1970. What do you think, Wayne?
Of course we can do the Canarsie Line end to end - it only takes but 35 or 40 minutes!
There is so much to see and do underground...every line has some sort of interesting features and with the renovations going on, things are even more interesting.
Yes, I WAS tired when I got home, but NOT exhausted. I think the strenuous exercise did me more good than anything. I actually lost three pounds, even with the lunch at Nathan's in me. And my rapidly-improving blood glucose situation is also helping me convert the excess sugar to ENERGY rather than tiring me out. Prandin and Avandia together seem to be doing the trick.
As for Chambers Street - well, I've spoken already on this topic. But I will say it ONE MORE TIME for anyone who hasn't already heard this litany - DO SOMETHING MEANINGFUL SOON OR IT WILL BE LOST! Putting Brown Paint on the ceiling there is like putting Neosporin (TM) on gangrene. What you have at Chambers Street IS gangrene.
One more question (should I put this in a separate post?) - at Chambers Street south end, they seem to have removed the retaining wall between the platforms and the tunnels, leaving the tunnels open.
I noticed an "M" going to turnaround there and the turnaround tracks seem to curve just as sharply as the through tracks. How far south of the station do these turnaround tracks go and how are they configured?
Wayne
Wayne: The tail track extends south to just north of the IRT 7 Avenue Subway at the north side of Beekman Street. It is 620 feet long and follows directly underneath the southbound track.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wasn't exhausted by the time I got back to my hotel, just sore. By the time our Q train reached W. 4th St., I figured the southbound slant R-40 dash along 6th Ave. would have to wait another year. It's safe to assume the slants will still be around for a while. I did stay up to watch the Yankees wrap up the World Series.
I wonder how many strings would have to be pulled to arrange a tour of the never-used Roosevelt Ave. terminal station... Or S. 4th St....
The only thing that could top that off are 6000 subway cars with handbrakes applied.
On Friday, I experienced something I never experienced before! I was on the #6 train and it was running a little late. So, when the train arrived at 125 Street, it went express to Parkchester! That's right
125 Street and then Parkchester. Has anyone ever seen that before?
It happened agian today (Tuesday). Unfortunately I just missed it.
What is happening? Simple - the #6 is totally messed up again. It happens at least once a year especially when the seasons change. Things get delayed in the PM going downtown and then once things get going again they have a line of trains waiting to go uptown but nothing available to go downtown so they have to have to "Super Express" things to get equipment.
It is crazy. I take the 6 when i am in NYC and the waits are crazy. Trains are late or right behind each other. PLEASE, AT SOME POINT, BUILD THE SECOND AVE SUBWAY!!!
I was on this train tonight. At least they made all the stops from
Parkchester to Pelham. It happened once before to me in the last
2 weeks.
The #6 leaving 125 at about 4:40pm today went express to Parkchester
today. This is the second day in a row.
That Happened to me a week ago. I made a Station stop at 125 and was ordered to make my Next stop Parkchester. I doubled check that order witch the 125 Dispatcher Gave me. The bad thing was I was held at Parkchester for a Relay to cross in front of me. My train was running late do to a Train ahead went out of Service do to Door Problems.
I heard that the first set of R-110A's is to be delivered this month. Anyone have any updated info?
You mean the R142. I don't know anything. Steve?
-Hank
You mean the R-142s. I don't know though. The R-110A was delivered in 1992.
Yep, you definitely mean the R142. Last I heard, the new date for delivery was December 13th. But that is like the 3rd or fourth postponement already, so who knows... -Nick
A 10 car set of bombardier R-142s is due on or about that date. However, the first shipment of Kawasaki R-142As has reportedly left Kobe, Japan and is sailing towards yonkers for final assembly. Hard to say which will arrive first.
Cool. Any thoughts as to when they will be in passanger service? I'm also assuming that the it will be running on the #2, right?
Either #2 or #5.
The 180th street yard has been renovated to accommedate the r142, so more than likely we will see them on the #2 and #5.
Not too long ago, someone posted that The Kawasaki R142's have to match Bombardiers' trains, therefore the kawasaki's could not be delivered first. By the way, how long, on average (if there is such) how long does final assembly take? -Nick
My bet is the Bombardiers arrive first and go into service first, then go out of service due to some unforseen bug.
Kawasakis arrive second, go into service and stay there.
I have 3 questions on this matter:
1. Was the R-110A ever in passanger service?
2. Are there any R-142s or R-143s in service now (I did not think there were, but Gene Russianoff of the Straphangers Campaign implied that they were there on the A, 2, and 3 when he came to Philadelphia yesterday)?
3. Will the new cars be equipt with TV screens (similar to on the SEPTA M4s so OPTO can be attainable?
Yes, the R110A has been in service since 93. It has been taken out of service at times with mechanical problems, which is understandable for this type of car. I rode it from Flatbush all the way to Pelham Parkway back in 95. Sure do love those foward facing window seats.
There are no R142/143 cars in service yet. In fact, none have been delivered to the city by their manufacturers.
so the delivery date will be to the Kawasaki plant in Yonkers? how long will assembly take and will there been any pics taken before during and after so we can see the stages of these vehicles..
I believe NY City Legislated early this century with the coming of the Penn Station and covered GC Terminal, H&M subway and the IRT subway, that all railroad cars operating under new York had to be built of steel. Perhaps this explains the US lead the world in steel car construction at the time - ie, the first all-steel car in the world on the IRT in 1903, and Pullman changing over to all-steel car building from 1910.
Does anyone know the exact nature of this legislation or edict, please?
And how 'all-steel' were these early cars? - inside AND outside of the body or just the external body and sheathing. BMT 1914 car at the NYC Transit museum has steel inside, for example.
The Gibbs Hi-Vs were all steel. The composite cars were a mix of wood and steel. They weren't allowed to run wooden equipment in the subway tunnels (although there may have been some exception in places like Main Street, Chambers Street, Pelham Parkway on the Dyre and a few other short tunnels).
Wayne
The next field trip to Plattsburgh is scheduled for the second week of December. This will be the first time they get to see a completed car. So, once again, do not expect to see delivery until mid-February at the earliest of the first 10 car set, followed by a minimum of 6 months track testing.
You're operating an R68 on the D pulling slowly into
Church Ave due to 2 cars with dead motors in the
rear. Brown operating a train of R40 slants on the
Q barrels into Church. As you're waiting for your
doors to close Brown says to you "They sent you out
with a slow train, because they knew you can't
handle anything that really moves." ( Brown has
ridiculed you ever since your training days, when
you threw a train into emergency because there were
sparrows on the track.)
You become enraged and bet Brown that even with a
slow train you'll reach Beverley before he does.
You pull out before Brown and the race is on. As
you're approaching Beverley, Brown is pulling
alongside you, and for the moment you forget that
there's a station stop at Beverley. Halfway through
the station you realize the situation. What should
you do?
a) throw the train into emergency, call command
center and tell them the truth about your being the
object of ridicule by your fellow workers, and hope
they understand.
b) keep on going through Beverley and make a normal
station stop at Cortelyou acting as if nothing is
wrong.
c) keep on going through Beverley and make a normal
station stop at Cortelyou and announce that you
skipped Beverley because it is now MTA policy to
encourage customers to walk more to protect their
hearts.
d) skip Cortelyou also and announce that command
center has ordered you to make express stops to
Newkirk to make up for lost time.
e) run non-stop to Coney Island, realizing that your
career is down the drain anyway, but at least you'll
be remembered by transit professionals and railfans
everywhere.
I say B.
Go to Cortelyou and then call command and report the Conductor for not pulling the Cord when you skipped Bev.
Or just site Rule 10 (Conduct Employees) item C:
Emplyees must treat all passengers and their fellow employees with courtesy, avoid argument and excersice patience, forbearance and self control under all conditions. They must be attentitive and helpful without being offensive.
10.d:
Employees must not make threating gestures towards, or commit assault or battery agianst, any person nor use loud, uncivil, indecent or profane lanuage, even under the greatest provocation.
And Rule 11 (Certian Acts of Employees Prohibited)
11.m:
Employees must not interfere any way or talk with Train Operators, Bus Operators while the latter are operating trains or vechicles, except when necessary inteh performance of their duties.
Gee .. this is enough to wanna make me be a train operator.
I say the answer is "D", because ....
a) throw the train into emergency, call command
center and tell them the truth about your being the
object of ridicule by your fellow workers, and hope
they understand.
... other answers are better.
b) keep on going through Beverley and make a normal
station stop at Cortelyou acting as if nothing is
wrong.
People will ask fewer questions if you ran express to Newkirk instead of skipping one local station.
c) keep on going through Beverley and make a normal
station stop at Cortelyou and announce that you
skipped Beverley because it is now MTA policy to
encourage customers to walk more to protect their
hearts.
The MTA sanua is on the Lexington Ave line, too far from the Brighton Line to be effective in an overall MTA-sponsored exercise program. Also, here aren't enough steps at the Cortelyou or Beverley Road stations to have any cardiovacular effects.
d) skip Cortelyou also and announce that command
center has ordered you to make express stops to
Newkirk to make up for lost time.
This gets my vote.
e) run non-stop to Coney Island, realizing that your
career is down the drain anyway, but at least you'll
be remembered by transit professionals and railfans
everywhere.
Not on an R-68 with 2 dead motors you won't :) And besides, since this answer didn't include sliding open the operator's door, it has to be disqualified.
How'd I do, teach??
--Mark
heypaul, my answer would have to be (e) since if I'm going down on a sinking ship, might as well go out with some style and pazazz!
SubDude
I don't think they repeat questions, at least they don't on NYPD promotional exams (which I'm familiar with) and I heard this question was on the last test. On the answer key the answer was "B".
My answer would have to be "B"
b) keep on going through Beverley and make a normal
station stop at Cortelyou acting as if nothing is
wrong.
What about 'F'
F) throw the train into emergency, call command
center and tell them that one of the Passengers did it. Then pay a Passesnge to back your story.
How about G
G)Pull a Luciano. Stop the train and back it up into Beverly Rd., then proceed as normal.
f) Run non-stop to Brighton Beach, telling Command Center that a Triplex with glaring red lights is on your tail.
You might even get disability in the rest home.
"f) Run non-stop to Brighton Beach, telling Command Center that a Triplex with glaring red lights is on your tail.
You might even get disability in the rest home."
If that was to happen, you might as well just jump off the train and run for dear life. Especially with an R-68.
I was wondering during the late evening runs to Brighton Beach around 8-9 pm when the Q trains are coming out of service, are they at least kept in revenue service to Coney Island since they are going in that direction to begin with? The reason why I am asking this question is because that is done during evening rush on the livonia lines with the 2,4 and 5 trian going to the yard sometimes.
As far as I can see the go Out Of Service at Brighton, sometimes they layup for a while on the layup tracks, sometimes they move off to CI and sometimes they sit at Ocean Ave as well.
Remember after Brighton Beach there are 6 tracks, at Ocean Ave 4 and right after Ocean Ave it goes down to two.
The Q's I've been on that are going OOS always arrive center track at Brigton or wait outside for a center track, and then they clear the train. Most conductors annouce at Sheepshead bay to change for the D there becaue they can't guarantee a cross platform connection >G<.
You mean Ocean Pkwy, not Ocean Ave
On the 2-4-5 lines the MOST trains that layup to Livonia Yard will have as the south terminal on the side signs as NEW LOTS AVENUE. Others go to their respective terminals and are layed up afterwards at Livonia yd. Another reason Q trains laying up at Coney Island Yard do not continue in service to Stillwell Avenue is that it will only plug up either the D platform or the N platform after discharging customers and making sure know one is still on board the train.
I v also seen the Qs going to the yards use a N Track, and sometimes they sit between BB and Ocean Pkwy until later at night to shuttle in
I know that mostly 5 trains lay up in Livonia. There are some 4's and a couple of 2's. I know the 2 and 4 will make the local stops from Utica to NL, but some 5's will go OOS at Utica or make the local stops to NL..........
3TM
During morning rush hours, a lot of 5 trains (especially the ones originating at 238/White Plains) will run to Utica, then go out of service to be laid up at the yard. A few 2 trains make all stops to New Lots. Wow, that track must be really congested around 9:30 AM.
The people who designed the Nostrand Ave. line should be ashamed of themselves. Not only is their no yard, or anything to store OOS trains, but having Flatbush Ave. with 2 side platforms made the terminal was remarkably stupid.
You are right!!!! Between 9:30 and 10:30 am, traffic is slow on the NL bound track, which sometimes causes delays on the Manhattan bound track. I wish there was a middle track along Livonia. As for Flatbush, I do not know who did the design there..... Maybe there were plans for future extension along Nostrand(Second System IND)...
3TM
This is quite true. It was never intended that Flatbush Avenue be the southern terminal of the Nostrand Avenue Line on a permanent basis so the station was constructed with two side platforms. However what was temporary has become more or less permanent.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Still, even if it were temporary, that station should have had a center platform.
Chris: Were would you put it? It would mean widening the ROW possibly into the building line. The IRT got stuck twice rebuilding ROWs.
The Contract II Brooklyn Line was built as a two and three track subway which was rebuilt before opening into a four track one.
Ditto the IRT Contract I Broadway Boulevard Line was rebuilt from a two track subway to a three track one before opening. This is the reason there are two tracks on one side of the 137 St Yard and three tracks on the other.
Its more than likely that they built the Nostrand Av Line as far as they had money for, then stopped in the expectation that more money would be forthcoming in the following years which of course it never did.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As late as the 1968 "MTA Program for Action", there were plans to extend the IRT Nostrand Ave line under Flatbush Ave to Ave U (the site of Kings Plaza, which did not exist in 1968).
--Mark
I thought it was the IND that was to be going down Utica to Kings Plaza. I guess I got the 1968 TA Plan mixed up with something else.
I thought the IRT was to continue down Nostrand toward Gerritsen/Sheepshead Bay and terminate somewhere near Veterans Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
Voorhies Avenue. Veterans Avenue is in Bergen Beach. And there is no Gerritsen Bay.
Sorry, meant Voorhies. And I meant Gerritsen Beach NOT Bay.
Doug aka BMTman
I think that if the subway is extended there, it should be ONLY by subway. Nearly all of the extensions I proposed were subway. Those that weren't used abandoned RR ROW (SIR North Shore, NYW&B, etc.)
I believe that the topography of the area will prohibit that........
3TM
The land there is flat as far as the eye can see, not a single hill or depression. Topography is not a concern.
My bad, I meant that the land is swampy marshlands so a subway probably would not be a good idea........
3TM
I think it can be done with cut and cover. Basements are built here, a subway isn't so much deeper.
and it shouldn't be much more difficult than the work at 116th, where an actual streem had to be diverted.
subfan
The stream had already been buried, but that doesn't make it any easier!
True, but it does proove that it's possible.
subfan
Both were brought up in the 20st, The Nostrand to Ave W or X and The Utica to Ave N or U. Both were originally IRT Ideas.
I thought it was the IND that was to be going down Utica to Kings Plaza. I guess I got the 1968 TA Plan mixed up with something else.
The 1929 plan (and 1939 and I think 1949) had an IND line running down Utica Ave to Ave U. In 1968, the idea of extending the Nostrand Ave line to Ave U was floated instead. That's probably where the confusion lies.
I thought the IRT was to continue down Nostrand toward Gerritsen/Sheepshead Bay and terminate somewhere near Veterans Ave.
Close ... Voorhies Ave in Sheepshead Bay.
--Mark
Boy that would have been hard, the Flatbush Ave Station goes as far as Ave H(Campus Road) they would of had to close most of the station, and South of Kings Hwy it would have had to been built as a EL, Kings Plaza is built on a Garbage Dump from the 30s-50s, Nothing solid there
There was no garbage dump at King Plaza. There was one at Spring Creek, closed in 1985 and another one on White Island closed in the 1960s.
There sure was one, I used to pass it all the time back in 49-52 when I when to Rockaway
You sure it wasn't White Island?
Now the plan (part of the next capital project— see this month's Bulletin) is to buils a small layup area adjacent to the LIRR. The tracks would immediately curve eastward south of the station. All they would have to dig up would be the municipal parking lot, and it would run under Blockbuster in already empty space next to the railroad.
Is this info on any website??????/
3TM
From: http://www.mnr.org/mta/cap2000-2004-nyct.htm#pp
"NYC Transit's proposed plan has $53 million for work at the Flatbush Terminal in Brooklyn to improve operations and service on the Nostrand Avenue line. The initial phase of this improvement is to extend the trackway beyond the Flatbush Avenue station. Subsequent work will link the extended trackway with new layup tracks created on a nearby, lightly used Long Island Rail Road right-of-way. This will help eliminate the bottleneck that occurs during peak periods and will improve service by reducing travel time for passengers."
Hey, anything can be "proposed". Building it is another thing altogether.
I have a question, if this thing is to be built, wouldn't that make Flatbush Avenue into the only subway terminal where you MUST leave? Like Lechmere in Boston.
What about Utica Ave on the 4? BB on the 6? And I think 205 on the D?
3TM
205th St. has a center island platform. At Brooklyn Bridge, all you need to do is cross over to the uptown platform without leaving the paid fare zone. I can't comment on Utica Ave. on the 4 because I've never been there.
On the 4 at Utica you have to go downstairs to Manhattan bound platform........
3TM
In those cases you can get on a train in the other direction without paying another fare. If the tracks at Flatbush were extended, then you would have to get out, cross the street, and pay another fare.
Response to the wrong message.
When I was in Boston in May, 1988, I rode to the end of some lines where I was forced to pay another fare to reverse direction: Blue Line to Wonderland, Red Line to Mattapan.
If you try to turn around at the end of PATH at Newark or Journal Square, you gotta pay up again. At 33rd and Hoboken, you're supposed to de-train onto one platform that leads to an exit turnstile, which would of course require another fare to turn around, but the crews seldom throw you off. At World Trade Center, the tracks go in a loop through the terminal and the doors only open on one side for both exiting and entering passengers.
There's no terminal at the end of any NYC subway line that requires exiting the system and payment of an additional fare to reverse direction.
When I was in London in December, 1988, I had a weekly unlimited pass that I bought at the British Tourist Bureau in New York, so I don't know what the policies are as far as fare zones, reversing direction, etc. I do remember a lot of terminals having island platforms.
Perhaps the construction will include a crossunder.
I've managed to enter and exit at the same station in Washington, riding a major portion of the system without being charged double, also exiting without paying more than the one zone fare. PATCO, on the other hand, has encoding that prevents you from exiting where you entered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bart gives you 2 hours to enter and exit, but if you exit at the same station you came in, you will have to pay a add fare. I suggest if you get on in dwntwn SF, Berkkley or Okland, just go to the next station to get off. They are only a couple blocks apart, especially in SF
I remember an all-day trip I took on BART in the late '80s. Boy did I get a funny look from the "ticket agent" when the fare gate wouldn't let me OUT of the system. After explaining that I was railfanning, I got a smile and a free exit.
Same thing in Singapore a few years back, though remembering my BART experience, I told the station attendant in advance that I'd be departing from the same place I started. Even with a shift change, I had no problem. Of course, strategically wearing a tee-shirt with the NYC Subway logo helped me get the red carpet treatment there, including a cab ride.
--Mark
Thanks for the info. I wish that the extended trackways will lead to another station such as Ave K, Kings Hwy, Ave. R and Ave.U.....
3TM
I happenned to be finishing up Seyfried's LIRR Comprehensive History Vol. 4 when I cam upon something of interest to this thread:
In the summer of 1913 -- with the service on the LIRR Manhattan Beach Branch at an all time low -- there was considerable interest by the Interborough Company to acquire the line. The purchase never came to pass be would have been something to have seen if it did.
The plan: connect the already existing Eastern Parkway Line to the Manhattan Beach Branch line. I would assume this would have been achieved via having a connection made between the Nostrand Ave. Line and the Bay Ridge Branch (this is the obvious closest point since the two lines are approximately within four blocks of each other at the Junction).
Had this plan been instituted the IRT would have created a link to the seashore (Coney Island) and would have also been in direct competition with their rival the BMT. Too bad this never came to be.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Thats interesting. The IRT could have made the same connection via Atlantic Avenue also. I wonder if this had something to do with the LIRR purchase of elm's similar to the Gibbs Hi-v's and Belmont's financial interest in both companies?
Larry,RedbirdR33
There was also plans in the early days of the century to connect the LIRR with the IRT at Flatbush/Atlantic. (Thats probably why they were placed side by side on the same level) The LIRR had 134 MP-41 cars, resembling the Low-V (or High-V, I'm not sure) IRT cars. They were designed by George Gibbs who designed the early IRT cars and were used mostly on the Atlantic Av Line. A couple actually lasted till after WWII on the Country Life Press-Clinton Shuttle.
Yep. And a remnant of the IRT/LIRR connection at Atlantic Ave. is still there. At the very northern end of the #2 & 3 platform you can inspect the tunnel wall that turned off into the LIRR portion of the station area. The NYCT now uses this former switch-off ROW to store equipment. It is essentially aligned with track #1 of the LIRR.
The connection was also the way August Belmont took his private subway car, "Mineola", from mid-town to his race track and other properties on Long Island.
Doug aka BMTman
[And a remnant of the IRT/LIRR connection at Atlantic Ave. is still there. At the very northern end of the #2 & 3 platform you can inspect the tunnel wall that turned off into the LIRR portion of the station area. The NYCT now uses this former switch-off ROW to store equipment. It is essentially aligned with track #1 of the LIRR.
The connection was also the way August Belmont took his private subway car, "Mineola", from mid-town to his race track and other properties on Long Island.]
The August Belmont story notwithstanding, I've heard that there is some question as to whether this connection was ever placed in use.
I also forgot to mention that there was also supposed to go down Utica Ave Also.
The Nostrand Ave Line was supposed to continue on to Ave X with Stops at Ave L, Kings Hwy, Ave R U and X
Why didn't it? And when?
It was plannesd from the beginning and was talked about into the 50s as far as I remember, again Money
That line would've never come to pass for a couple of reasons (even if the money was there).
(1) The topography of Brooklyn south of KingsHighway is swampy marshlands. Building a subway would be impractical. An elevated line would have to be created, or some form of isolated Right-of-way.
(2) Due to #1's problem, the neighborhoods that the proposed IRT extension would transverse -- Midwood, Marine Park and Gerritsen Beach -- have traditionally been more residential (almost suburban compared to other neighborhoods north along the IRT). The local residents would surely have mounted massive efforts to prevent an el structure from being built, bringing the noise and lack of sunlight, destroying the peace and tranquility of their homes.
Just some random thoughts.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, the last time I checked a map of New York City Gerritsen Beach was not part of the mainland. You're not trying to tell me that there was going to be an extension of the IRT out to Gerritsen Beach?
Gerritsen Beach is not part of the mainland, but in the sense that it's part of Royal Island. It's a penninsula off RI.
No the subways were planned to go straight down Nostrand to Ave W or X and Down Utica to somewhere between N and U
The two southern Brooklyn plans that never got built that I know of are these two:
(1) IND Utica Ave. extension. This would have been a branch-off from the Fulton Ave. Line (A & C) that would have swung south from Fulton at Lefferts Blvd. and continued down Utica to King's Plaza Mall. I believe there is some remnant of these plans at the Lefferts Ave. stop on the C Line.
(2) Nostrand Ave. extension. The line that terminates at "The Junction" (the term for the Brooklyn College area where Flatbush, and Nostrand intersect) was planned to run further south to either Ave. U or X. Evidence of this is the fact that the terminal station at Flatbush Ave. is NOT an island station. Island stations are usually the norm for terminals so that customers can go with ease to whichever train is due out of the station.
Doug aka BMTman
(1) IND Utica Ave. extension. This would have been a branch-off from the Fulton Ave. Fulton STREET? Line (A & C) that would have swung south from Fulton at Lefferts Blvd. and continued down Utica to King's Plaza Mall. I believe there is some remnant of these plans at the Lefferts Ave. stop on the C Line.
Uh, Doug ... I don't know much about Brooklyn geography, but on "The Map" from the MTA, the Lefferts Blvd. stop ("Ozone Park/Lefferts Blvd."), which is A train-only, appears several miles EAST of Utica Avenue AND roughly parallel to it. Would the extension you described branch south at the Utica Avenue stop on the A/C (14 stops west of the Lefferts stop)?
Now, I know this map is HIGHLY out of scale, but still ... can anyone help me visualize this?
Opps, sorry. I believe I meant to say Utica Ave. on the A/C.
Doug aka BMTman
I think BMTman was partially right (I mean, after all, this was IND planning :)
From the 1929 IND "Second System" plan ....
South 4th Street-Utica Avenue Line: From the Houston St. river tunnel to Grand St. in Williamsburg, to Utica Avenue at approximately Fulton Street, to Voorhies Avenue and Nostrand Avenue in Sheepshead Bay. In anticipation of this line being built, a four track "station" was built the width of the Fulton Street line, so when construction for the Utica Avenue line would proceed, service on the existing Fulton Street line would not be disturbed.
IRT Nostrand Ave. Line: Extend the IRT Nostrand Avenue Line as a 2 track subway to Kings Highway, and then as an El to meet the Utica Avenue Line at Avenue S.
In 1968, these plans were revised to extend the IRT Nostrand Ave line under Flatbush Ave to Ave U (the site of Kings Plaza) and there was no mention of the former Utica Ave route.
--Mark
Thanks Mark, that sounds more like what I recall about the extension proposals.
Doug aka BMTman
The Utica Avenue Subway and Elevated was the proposed by the Publc Service Commission as Route #28 in 1911 and Route #57 in 1914.
Both routes envisionage a rapid transit lines orignating in the unexplored regions of southern Brookyn and proceeding north on Utica Avenue to a junction at Stuyvesant and Lafayette Avenues with Routes 9 & 10 in Route #27 or Eastern Parkway and Utica Avenue in Route #57.
The IRT provided turnouts in the south tunnel wall east of Utica Avenue Station on both levels.The IND apparently built the upper level at their Utica Avenue Station for a similar purpose.
There also was the proposed extension of the Eastern Parkway Line past Utica Avenue. This is the reason for the fascinating track layout at that location. If the extension had been built it would have led into the two north tracks at that station.
There also was a proposal for a Linwood Street Extension to Jamaica Bay and then east to the City Line. This is provided for in the el structure east of New Lots Avenue Station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Most plans for subway extensions that I've seen have always been for Division B lines. Why is extension of the IRT so unpopular?
Is it because of it's smaller specs?
That is certainly a possibility. Extending the BMT/IND lines would provide for more cross-divisional operations, whereas the IRT is mostly separated due to its smaller clearances.
--Mark
Except for the Nostrand Ave. extension, and the Flushing line extension there isn't a single piece of new IRT type construction laid out in either the IND's 1929 "Second System" or the MTA's 1968 "Plan for Action". In fact, the IND Second System had both the Dyre Ave. line being used by B division trains, and the White Plains Rd. line was also to be converted to the B division standards. The Astoria line was actually an IRT-type line converted for the BMT in 1949.
Also remember these were planned before there was a IND, and there were no BMT lines nearby to connect to
Probably so. In actuality, only the original Contract One and Contract Two portions of the IRT were built to smaller dimensions, and this is why narrow equipment is used on the IRT division to this day. All Dual Contracts lines were built to BMT clearances. You can see this for yourself on the West Side and East Side lines. On the Dual Contracts portions of these lines, the side tunnel walls have catwalks, and the third rail is perhaps a foot away from the I-beams. Plus there is a crash wall between the express tracks between stations. On the original 1904 portions including the 42nd St. shuttle, the third rail is right up against the I-beams, and there are no catwalks along the side tunnel walls. No crash wall between the express tracks, either.
The track layout at Utica Ave is something. Wasnt the IRT extension down Utica was going to be buitl during the 70's?????
3TM
Built in the 70's? Wasn't the MTA focusing it's manpower on demolishing train lines during that decade?
(still bitter over the Jamaica Ave. el amputation 22 years later)
AS stated in a earlier post it was talked about in the 20s
The outer leg of the Jamaica Ave. el would have been dismantled anyway once the Archer Ave. line had opened. IIRC, a few major department stores clamored to have the line demolished earlier in the belief that by doing so it would attract more business. That plan backfired drastically.
That's why I've stated that the Archer Ave. line was a waste of money.
"That's why I've stated that the Archer Ave. line was a waste of money."
What ChrisR? Are you aware that this area (Jamaica Avenue) was once desserted with very few businesses. Now, it is one of the most vibrant areas around with plenty of stores offering all times of merchantdise: clothing, cosmetic products, houseware supplies, hair salons, eateries, etc. Plus, what about the connection between E and J lines? Now, passengers can transfer from Central Queens or Eastern Brooklyn without leaving the subway. On top of that, connections can be made with the LIRR which wasn't possible before. The only obstacle is transfering to these different services. For example, passengers using the J must walk one flight of stairs to transfer to the E (which could have been put on the same level to reduce the effort), and several flights of stairs to aquire the Long Island Railroad.
N Broadway Line
You have it backwards. Jamaica was once a thriving commercial area. The primary reason was the ease of transportation provided by the old J line. However, some of the businesses decided that the el was ugly, and they lobbied to have it replaced with a subway. So on 9/9/77, the outer 3 stations were closed and demolished with breathtaking speed. With no train service, Jamaica died. Even the opening of the Archer Ave. line was too little/too late. Gertz, Mays and countless other strores went bankrupt. Only the courthouse (built after the el was removed) keeps that neighborhood form completely falling apart. I remember Jamaica 22+ years ago. It's a shell of it's former self. Now, the only shoppers that come to Jamaica are those who drive through it on their way to Green Acres.
As for the Archer Ave. line being a waste of money, just remember this: all 3 of it's stations are located not more than 2 bocks from a former J line station. Basically, they spend billions of dollars to replace an existing train line. That's my definition of waste.
The money would have been much more wisely spent either extending the Hillside Ave. line past 179th St. or using the Archer Ave connection with the old IND for a new line down the Van Wyck. At least those options would have introduced subway service to neighborhoods who don't have any as of today.
So your telling me ChrisR, that the neighborhood would have been better off if they left the J by itself without any meaningful connections to the other lines? That just doesn't make any since to me. Besides, what about those many small businesses that exist in that area? Wouldn't it not have been possible if the two lines were built?
Come on ChrisR, I'm sure you can see the advantage in having the two lines meet? Some advantage. I know the cost of building the connection was really expensive, but what about the inconvenience it would've been if it wasn't done.
Now passengers can travel all the way from Brooklyn into Central Queens without leaving the subway. You still have not explain what the disadvantage is, if they is one.
Lets see... You seem to be basing your whole case on the mere fact the big retail stores are no longer in the area. This leaves me with one conclusion, you favor big businesses over smaller ones.
ChrisR, businesses don't make the area, PEOPLE do! And with the E/J and LIRR connection, it encourages growth.
I'm not saying I'm for the demolishment of the old elevated route. But, you have to understand, a connection is better than a single elevated line to no where.
Absolutley not. With the elimination of 2 fare zones, any advantage of a IND/BMT connection becomes moot. If the money had been used to build a line down the Van Wyck as I stated, a connection could have been made with the old J at Metropolitian Ave.
Jamaica is nothing compared to what it was pre 1977. As I said, only the courthouse has saved it from dying completely. The whole purpose of building the Archer Ave. line was to improve the Jamaica shopping district. In that respect, it's been a billion dollar failure. It's been nearly 11 years since the connection opened, and Jamaica still looks like it did before it opened.
"The primary reason was the ease of transportation provided
by the old J line."
ChrisR, I know you're not talking about this line being "ease of transportation". For instance, look at all the bottlenecks: Woodhaven Blvd, Crescent Street in Cypress Hills, Van Siclen Avenue into Alabama Avenue and don't forget Broadway Eastern Parkway and the Bridge. To me, it's an embarrasment that they allow this line to operate in this manner. It's just doesn't do the job when it comes to getting people from one place to another quickly as possible. Besides, even the elevated A to Lefferts does a much better job. And that doesn't included the inside subway either.
Thank god they built the connection b/t the E and the J. Now people in that area have a faster means of transportation. The E train.
I don't know how much it will cost to construct a new viaduct, but whatever it takes, they should replace it. It's just tooooooooooooo damn ssssssllllllllooooooooowwwwwwww.
11/13/99
Chris R is right. The demolition of the Jamaica "EL" does figure in with the decline of the area. I think this situation has been duplicated before.
Bill Newkirk
Of course replacing an El with a subway is pure waste. For that reason we should never have built the subway under 4 Ave in Brooklyn, 6 Avenue, 8 Avenue and Fulton Street. We should have also left those els alone and not even start to build the Second Avenue Subway (although since it doesn't exist, we SHOULD have left the els alone).
Well, that's not what I meant. All of the Manhattan els were old, even back in the 40's when they were demolished. Their capacity was also limited. Subway replacements in these areas were a must.
However, the Jamaica Ave. el was about the same age as most of the existing dual contracts el lines (being built in 1917). There was no immediate need to tear it down, except for the foolish idea that it was "ugly". Jamaica did fine for 50 years with that ugly el. It turned that neighborhood into a retail powerhouse. There were at least 3 major movie theatres in the area. Tearing it down was incredibly stupid.
To demonstrate what I mean, ride the J on a Saturday out of Jamaica Center. Lots of shoppers on that train headed towards Brooklyn. Unfortunatly for Jamaica, the vast majority of them are coming back from Green Acres, just passing through Jamaica as they transfer from bus to train.
However, the Jamaica Ave. el was about the same age as most of the existing dual contracts el lines (being built in 1917). There was no immediate need to tear it down, except for the foolish idea that it was "ugly". Jamaica did fine for 50 years with that ugly el. It turned that neighborhood into a retail powerhouse. There were at least 3 major movie theatres in the area. Tearing it down was incredibly stupid.
The merchants along Jamaica Avenue who wanted the el demolished received their just reward. No el, no business. No business, ghost town. I wonder if they would ever try the same idiocy with the #7. Could you imagine no train service to Shea?
I was there yesterday and Jamaica certainly didn't look like a ghost town. I certainly don't think the businesses kept operating because of the el. I think most of the el's ridership was in the reverse, people going W/B from Jamaica to work in the city or Brooklyn. Also there were hundreds of crowded buses going to Jamaica and also the IND on Hillside. As for the dept. stores, Mays closed all over, Glen Oaks, Levittown, etc. So did Gertz.
One other thing about the demolition that is great for El fans: The Archer Av Subway and the money spent on it kind of GUARANTEES the future of the rest of the Jamaica El!!!
Nobody said it was dead. The courthouse has kept the neighborhood up. Besides, most people who lived close to the outer portion of the el probably walked to Hillside Ave for the faster IND.
"Besides, most people who lived close to the outer portion of the el probably walked to Hillside Ave for the faster IND."
ChrisR,
No longer people have to walk to get better service. Isn't that great?! Now, enough with the attacks of the Jamaica Center station and be thankful for what we got!
N Broadway Line
Yeah, spend billions of $$$ just to save 10 minutes off your ride. What an incredibly sensible idea.
TIM=Time Is Money
3TM
"Yeah, spend billions of $$$ just to save 10 minutes off your ride."
In this case, I really think the money was well spent. Accessibility, convenience and the ability to carry people to their place of work faster. And, where did you get 10 minutes from? I rode the J line a number of occasions and found the ride to be tremondously slow. We all know about the bottleneck between Cypress and Crescent (which might be hard to fix), but what about all those slow spots on the straight track segments? Not even the Lefferts Blvd elevated is that slow. How do you explain that?
Come on folks, help me out?!
N Broadway Line
The J train slows considerably from Norwood to Elderts lane, as well as the approach to Supthin Blvd. However, the remainder of the stretch runs as fast as any other el.
What about after Van Siclen Avenue and into Broadway Eastern Parkway? These are very slow areas.
Around the curve ok, but straight track? Lets get serious.
Trains do slow up coming out of Alabama Ave. becuase of the myriad of switches there. However, I was reffering to the Queens portion of the line.
So who cares about going to Shea anyway?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So who cares about going to Shea anyway?
I care about going to Shea. I also care about going to Yankee Stadium. So do countless thousands of others.
Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, this Braves fan just wanted to have fun!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess it hasn't been too much fun for you guys since the World Series!
I guess it hasn't been too much fun for you guys since the World Series!
Just because I like the Mets doesn't mean that I'm not a Yankiee fan.
I like both. But, I'm more of a Yankee fan. In a Subway Series, I'd go with the Yankees!
Actually that post was meant for the Braves fan!!!
Sorry!!!
Actually that post was meant for the Braves fan!!!
Sorry!!!
No problem.
That's all right, we'll win it next year!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Braves have been saying that every year but one in the 90s, I like the name of the old Atlanta Minor League AAA team before the Braves came to town. THE CRACKERS
Aren t the O in Balt Closer?
Yes, but they're American League ... in my upbringing, therefore, they didn't count.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And we all know what the Mets did to them (and the Braves, for that matter) 30 years ago.
As long as the Mets have a competitive ballclub, people will find a way to Shea. Remember the late 70s? They had a lousy team and attendance reflected that.
I don't see the Flushing line coming down anytime soon. One volunteer at the Transit Museum pointed out that the subways actually generate a profit in Queens. Given the ridership on the IND Queens line and the 7, I can't argue with that.
Sorry, didn't mean to ruffle any feathers, this Braves fan just wanted to have fun!
Its OK. Some folks just hate baseball. I thought you might have been one of them.
Might I ask why someone from this part of the country is a Braves fan? That's kind of odd!
I agree with you about the Jamaica El. Our wonderful city keeps making the same stupid choice over and over. Tear down the els. "They're dirty and noisy, and bring down property values". If the el is good enough for Chicago's business hub, which, by the way, got its name from the el, The Loop, then why aren't the els good enough for NYC? We at one time had more miles of elevated track than any other city. We also had more miles of streetcar track than any other city. Except for the current phenomenon in Brooklyn, we don't have one lousy trolley line! Now, cities are beginning to realize that light rail is the wave of the future. Europe has never gotten away from traction. We do everything __s backwards. We replace els with busses.
I wonder if modern technology would make a new el along say, 2nd. Ave. a viable option to the community. I'm sure they could be made quieter and less of an "eyesore". Perhaps the cost of building subway lines might make them impossible today.
"I wonder if modern technology would make a new el along say, 2nd. Ave. a viable option to the community. I'm sure they could be made quieter and less of an "eyesore". Perhaps the cost of building subway lines might make them impossible today."
Forget it ChrisR, the public will never buy it!
Enough is enough, let's build the subway already!
N Broadway Line
"I wonder if modern technology would make a new el along say, 2nd. Ave. a viable option to the community. I'm sure they could be made quieter and less of an "eyesore". Perhaps the cost of building subway lines might make them impossible today."
Forget it ChrisR, the public will never buy it!
Enough is enough, let's build the subway already!
I'll take an el over a subway any time. Even a modern concrete and glass one. (The glass will probably be plexiglass or plastic, knowing the TA).
OK, lets build it. Have any ideas where the city will get the $300 million-per-mile construction costs?
Mainly because I'm not from this part of the country (although I work in New Jersey at the moment) - North Carolina is my home, where I still maintain my permanent residence, and where I will go when I retire. Not that I'm that much closer to the Braves - from the eastern part of North Carolina where I live it's almost as far to Atlanta as it is to New York, and Philly is actually easier to get to (which may explain why I'm really a Philly Phanatic, with the Braves as my second-favorite).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mainly because I'm not from this part of the country (although I work in New Jersey at the moment) - North Carolina is my home, where I still maintain my permanent residence, and where I will go when I retire. Not that I'm that much closer to the Braves - from the eastern part of North Carolina where I live it's almost as far to Atlanta as it is to New York, and Philly is actually easier to get to (which may explain why I'm really a Philly Phanatic, with the Braves as my second-favorite).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That makes perfect sense to me. As for the Braves, they are despised in NY due to the nasty comments made by C. Jones and J. Rocker.
Rocker's comments were way off base, that's for sure. I didn't hear Chipper's so I can't comment on them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Rocker's comments were way off base, that's for sure. I didn't hear Chipper's so I can't comment on them.
Toward the end of the season, when most people thought that the Mets were out of the pennant race, when everyone thought that Cincinnati was going to be the Wild Card, Chipper Jones said that the Mets are finished, and that Mets fans should put away their Met gear and get out their Yankee gear. Then, the Mets came back to haunt him and Chipper had to eat his words. My honest opinion about the Mets winning the pennant: maybe they would have, maybe they wouldn't have. The fact is that Bobby Valentine and Kenny Rogers gave away Game 6 on a silver platter. If the Mets had won game 6, the all-or-nothing rubber Game 7 would have decided things. Remember 1997? The Yankees won the first 2 against Cleveland. Then Cleveland came back and won the next 3. If the Mets wouldn't have gone through that horrible losing streak toward the end of the season, it might have been the Mets winning the division and the Braves as the Wild Card. Anyway, Kenny Rogers filed for free agency. I feel sorry for the team that picks him up. The Yankees were glad to unload him on Oakland. Then the Mets had to make the stupid mistake of picking him up.
The Mets are not the Yankees
The Mets are not the Yankees
????????????????????????????????????
I know the Mets are not the Yankees. I never said they were.
I know, that's why I'm a Mets fan.
A lot of people in new york know yankees are #1 but the mets are better than yankees because they know how to win & alway come back & they are not yankees. Also mets make a good trade by getting kenny roger but Bobby V make mistaken bring him in the to the game & he should have bring Octavio Dotel in the game. By the way i never like Yankees owner because he just want Champion.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
1 world series in 40 years too, the tomahawk chop chopped them down, take Marta next time
Has the tearing down of the inner Myrtle Ave. El actually helped, economically, the Myrtle Ave. corridor? In addition, I can't believe that the replacement buses for the old Q's are faster.
Carl M.
That I don't know, Carl - perhaps someone else will be able to answer that question.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ok then what is the fastest stretch on the els, both locals and expresses. If you consider the Brighton, it should only be between Brighton Beach and Stillwell, and would you consider the South Brooklyn On the F/G and El, also the Rockaways Branches.
From what I've been told by a very reliable history source, when the BMT BWAY el between Marcy and East New York had through express service, this was the fastest stretch of el in NYC.
Mike H
From what I've been told by a very reliable history source, when the BMT BWAY el between Marcy and East New York had through express service, this was the fastest stretch of el in NYC.
Mike H
What about the 7?
The 2 train zips alone White Plains Rd. at a good speed. Always remember to hold on if your standing on a Manhattan bound train as it zips through the curve just north of Bronx Park East at full speed.
Ahem. Offended Met/rail fan here. So watch it!
LOL.
I've always felt that an el is nicer than a subway, with an el, one sees the neighborhood, with a subway, who knows what's out there. I've never looked out of a rail fan window in an underground or open cut portion because I don't care. Plus, I'm not a big fan of the design of the Archer stations.
Jamaica Center is way too dark, and Jamaica/Van Wyck is way too...orange!
"Jamaica Center is way too dark, and Jamaica/Van Wyck is way too...orange!"
Who cares about design. The most important thing on passenger's minds is accessibility and cleanest.
And ask any passenger, what would they perfer, subway or Elevated. There answer will be most definitely subways because they are faster, less noisy to surrounding neighborhoods and lesser delays due to weather conditions.
N Broadway Line
Who cares about design. The most important thing on passenger's minds is accessibility and cleanest.
And ask any passenger, what would they perfer, subway or Elevated. There answer will be most definitely subways because they are faster, less noisy to surrounding neighborhoods and lesser delays due to weather conditions.
Els may get bogged down in snow and ice, but subways get flooded in heavy rain.
Except in rare occasions, I've never seen an el shut down by snow or ice. Subways, OTOH are vulnerable to flooding by both storms, water main breaks, etc.
Except in rare occasions, I've never seen an el shut down by snow or ice. Subways, OTOH are vulnerable to flooding by both storms, water main breaks, etc.
Back in 1973, an ice storm shut the 7 down. I was a victim of that. When I got to 82nd St. station, I was told that the line was out due to the ice; to go to the IND.
"I've always felt that an el is nicer than a subway, with an el, one sees the neighborhood,"
I sympathize with you Eugenius. However, we have to consider people's right to maintain a quiet and peaceful neighborhood. If that means razing more els and replacing them with subway, then I stand by ever word. But, if it means razing them without building anything, KEEP them up!
While you el advocates have a case when it comes to the second avenue elevated, you loose big when it comes to the new setup at Jamaica Center compare to the Jamaica Avenue Elevated.
Subways are just better.
N Broadway Line
I sympathize with you Eugenius. However, we have to consider people's right to maintain a quiet and peaceful neighborhood. If that means razing more els and replacing them with subway, then I stand by ever word. But, if it means razing them without building anything, KEEP them up!
While you el advocates have a case when it comes to the second avenue elevated, you loose big when it comes to the new setup at Jamaica Center compare to the Jamaica Avenue Elevated.
Subways are just better.
I agree with Eugenius. Riding in the open air is so much more pleasant than riding underground. Even during freezing January. Would you like to live in a basement with no windows? How would you like to live and work in a place where you never see daylight. No, the els are better. They keep you in touch with the real world. I like to know when its daylight and when its dark. I like to know when its sunny, cloudy or raining (or snowing). Also, when it comes to vehicular river crossings, I prefer bridges to tunnels--more to see. Getting a bit off topic, I also prefer natural grass in an outdoor baseball stadium to an indoor stadium with artificial turf.
Robert Moses also hated vehicular tunnels. To get off topic, I read about the replacement Shea Stadium, and I like it, not only does it have a retractable dome, it has retractable GRASS! Now that is the best kind of stadium!
Robert Moses also hated vehicular tunnels. To get off topic, I read about the replacement Shea Stadium, and I like it, not only does it have a retractable dome, it has retractable GRASS! Now that is the best kind of stadium!
I agree. What Shea's replacement is, is a modern, high-tech version of the old Ebbets Field. If built, it would be in Shea's parking lot. They in turn would tear down Shea and make that the parking lot. I saw the pictures of the new stadium on the Mets web site a while back. Very impressive.
Let's just say Robert Moses wasn't exactly a rapid transit fan, either.
Yes, but that we all know. We don't all know about the fight about the Brooklyn-Battery Bridge (yes, Bridge!).
How? Jamaica was in better a better economic state when the el was up. It's gone down ever since it was closed. It has remained down since it's replacement subway opened. It's pretty easy to figure out: the replacement subway was a bad idea, an expensive idea, and a stupid idea.
Had the el remained intact all the way to 168th St. right up until the Archer Ave. line was ready to be tied in, it might have been a different story. The outer end was closed 11 years too soon.
Perhaps, for the part east of 160th St. Wouldn't it have been better to just leave the el and use the money for the Archer Ave. extension's construction elsewhere, like the 2nd Ave. line, or an extension of the IND further east on Hillside?
Perhaps, for the part east of 160th St. Wouldn't it have been better to just leave the el and use the money for the Archer Ave. extension's construction elsewhere, like the 2nd Ave. line, or an extension of the IND further east on Hillside?
I totally agree. How about this bizarre twist? extend the E the way it is now, but instead of building Jamaica Center, have the E go up on the el and join with the J and Z just before the Sutphin Blvd. & Jamaica Ave. station, go on the el to 168th St., then and extend in a new subway on Jamaica Ave. to at least 179th St., maybe beyond--the E, J and Z.
Yikes. That would be one massive, ugly el structure. Even I wouldn't agree to that.
I do believe that the money should have been spent on a line down the Van Wyck. Perhaps today's Airtrain el could have been modified and become an extension of the E from Jamaica/Van Wyck, thus giving direct rail access to JFK and subway service to areas that don't have it today. A connection between Metropolitian Ave. on the J (and Z) and the E at J/VW could be made.
I didn't say el, I said "extend in a new subway on Jamaica Ave. to at least 179th St., maybe beyond--the E, J and Z." But, come to think of it, all elevated wouldn't be a bad idea. You're thinking of extending with a steel structure a la 1916. Have you seen some of the modern el structures of today? They're concrete, they're pleasing to the eye, and they're not noisy like their predecessors. That's probably what they should build on 2nd Ave. It would be cheaper than a subway, and I don't think the residents of the area would mind a fast, quiet, aesthetic el line. Check this out Miami Metrorail
Another picture of the same Another picture of the same
You'll never be able to sell the Upper East Side residents on a new el, no matter how modern, quiet and unoffensive it might look. Els have a reputation as being in run-down or working class areas.
As a cost cutting measure, I fully support the building of new elevated lines. However, I must admit, it really won't work in Manhattan.
Referring to Joseph Rosen post earlier, it makes since to use existing el structures instead of building new ones. For instance, he mentioned the J/Z using the Jamaica Avenue branch, while the E will use the Green Arches branch (part of Long Island Railroad).
Only the F will remain subway into Little Neck Road. And while I'm at it, why not extend the A line further than the Lefferts Blvd terminal. It could run via Liberty Avenue, Van Wyck Express and Linden Blvd terminating at Springfield Blvd. It will be all elevated.
N Broadway Local
"Referring to Joseph Rosen"
WHO?
ChrisR,
Obviously you have not walk on Jamaica Avenue. It's really crowded and the stores are full. Please do not base your claim on what you see at the train station but on the street (Jamaica Avenue).
N Broadway Line
My in-laws live in Jamaica. I drive down Jamaica Ave. every time I visit them. I have also lived in Woodhaven and visited Jamaica since the day I was born. It's where my parents went to shop. It's where I went to get my eyes tested every year since I was 8. If their is anyone in here that deserves the right to comment on both Jamaica and the removal of the el (which I witnessed from my earliest childhood memories) it's me.
One good thing about the Archer Av Line. Its geat not having to walk all the way to Hillside to get the IND after getting off the LIRR.
Jeffrey Rosen,
You're my buddy. I think that is what I've been saying. I don't know why ChrisR do not like small businesses. He thinks big businesses makes the neighborhood, not the people.
Anyhow, what I'm really talking about more than anything else is convenience. The mere fact passengers can transfer easily than before.
ChrisR,
I do not dispute what you say about the Jamaica Center area before 1977. I was too young, and besides, I don't remember my mother taking me shopping there. However, I did get a glimpse of the Queens Blvd station before they demolished it (1981). But other than that, I knew very little about the history of the area. Actually, it wasn't until 1989 (sometime in June) that I remember traveling to what is called Jamaica Center (Jamaica Avenue 160th Street).
By the way, when I did travel to the Jamaica area, it was always with the F line (179th Street) - since it went to my uncle's house. Other than that, your right, I have very little knowledge of this area.
Although, you still can't compare what is there now compare to what was there before. Jeffrey Rosen already made a very good point about those two businesses you pointed out. They were dissolved. Nothing to do with the area, but due to bad mismanagement.
N Broadway Line
I never said that the big stores went bankrupt because the train was demolished. It was the smaller businesses which suffered. Jamaica has improved a bit over the past few years, but it's still a far cry from what it was. In fact, I can remember seeing lots of vacant storefronts back in 86-87 as I rode the bus through the neighborhood on my way to high school (Thomas Edison).
Just take the LIRR to Kew Gardens. The IND is only a block away.
but it runs only once a hour
That's at Forest Hills. I think the LIRR and IND are farther apart at Kew Gardens.
"My in-laws live in Jamaica. I drive down Jamaica Ave. every time I visit them. I have also lived in Woodhaven and visited
Jamaica since the day I was born. It's where my parents went to shop. It's where I went to get my eyes tested every year since
I was 8. If their is anyone in here that deserves the right to comment on both Jamaica and the removal of the el (which I
witnessed from my earliest childhood memories) it's me."
Excuss me for expressing an opinion. Anyway, I wasn't talking about what happened in 1977, or, making any comparisons. All I'm saying is that the Jamaica Center setup makes a lot of sense. It promotes growth and moves people from one place to another without discouraging people to seeking out other transportation methods. Question? Was the J elevated ridership as high as the E ridership now, Chris R? Besides, the J elevated made it hard for people to use just the subway (requiring people to pay double fare).
N Broadway Line
Jamaica drew it's shoppers from those neighborhoods that the el cut through (Richmond Hill, Woodhaven, Cypress Hills, etc. Most people who lived near the Queens IND didn't shop in Jamaica. They went to Queens Center.
Besides, absolutley no advantage has been achieved with this new line as far as easing overcrowding on the Queens IND. In fact, it's now worse. There are now thousands of J riders who travel to Jamaica to use the E into Manhattan. This would have been impossible had the el been left alone. You could have still implemented J/Z rush hour skip-stop service. Most of the people who now ride the J to work from Jamaica probably would still use that line had it been left as it was.
So in conclusion:
Billions of $$$, no new rail service to areas that didn't have it, the near destruction of a once thriving commercial and retail area, and increased access to an already overcrowded line. What the !@#$%& was the city thinking when it came up with this lame-brained idea?
Chris, I don't know if you read my earlier post where I stated that the Archer Av Line actually guaranteed the survival of the rest of the Jamaica/Bway El. After all, they wouldn't have spent all that money building it if they were planning to take down its only connection in a few years. I think thats great news to anyone who loves els and loves the Jamaica El. A sacrifice of 3 stations to guarantee the survival af the rest!!!
Chris, I don't know if you read my earlier post where I stated that the Archer Av Line actually guaranteed the survival of the rest of the Jamaica/Bway El. After all, they wouldn't have spent all that money building it if they were planning to take down its only connection in a few years. I think thats great news to anyone who loves els and loves the Jamaica El. A sacrifice of 3 stations to guarantee the survival af the rest!!!
It was a sacrifice of 5 stations, not 3:
1-Metropolitan Ave.
2-Queens Blvd.
3-Sutphin Blvd.
4-160th St.
5-168th St.
As for the rest of the el being safe, I don't put anything past the City and the TA. There's no reason in hell why they couldn't or wouldn't stop providing J service to Jamaica Center. After all, the E goes there. They're good at wasting money. Remember the 2nd Ave. subway construction in the '70s. After abandoning the construction, they filled in what they dug with sand. So, what's the big deal in abandoning a connecton and one level of platforms in a station. Do you see how much the "K" or "KK" part of the Chrystie St. connection is used? It wasn't worth building if it is not used in revenue service. As for the 2nd Ave. subway, they should have gotten that done right after the Second World War. These days, the cost is too prohibitive. We will never see a 2nd Ave. subway. With all this nonsense that the TA spent money on, like Archer Ave., 63rd St. tunnel, re-doing stations, the list goes on and on, we could have had a 2nd Ave. subway.
Please dont say that. Hopefully the FULL LENGTH of 2Av will be up and running several years............
3TM
More like several HUNDRED years.
"Besides, absolutley no advantage has been achieved with this new line as far as easing overcrowding on the Queens IND. In
fact, it's now worse. There are now thousands of J riders who travel to Jamaica to use the E into Manhattan."
I agree with you ChrisR, the overcrowding on the Queens IND is now worse. Solutions??? They could set aside money from their capital budget to fix all the slow spots on this line? And the MTA could replace the middle track allowing non-stop express service all the way to Crescent Street? Better yet, the MTA could add express stations. For instance, they could widen the track bed at Woodhaven Blvd allow for express service at that station. Also, they could widen the track bed between Cypress Hills and Bwy Eastern Parkway allowing for a third track to be install. It might really encourage people who double back to the E line to stay on the J line heading towards lower Manhattan.
N Broadway Line
There slow and inefficent to todays standards.
N Broadway Line
I had to go to a doctor at 161St & Jamaica Av today and although I usually drive there I figured Fri Afternoon would be murder going back to Long Island so I took the train. Getting off the LIRR I took the the subway the 1 stop to Jamaica Center. I could stand by the stairs on the "E" level and see if a "J" came first however on the way back there was NO way to know whether the "J" or "E" was leaving first!!! I guess very few people take it that on stop!!!!
I don't think the el had anything to do with the store's closings as Mays, Gertz, etc closed all their branches. By the way, what Christmas song did the local people sing after the el was taken down??
ANS: Noel, Noel....
Huh? Then what's at the southern end of Gerritsen Ave??
--Mark
The Bay is the South End Of Gerritsen Ave
Plumb Bay. Plumb means lead in Latin, that's why the symbol for lead is Pb, and a plumber fixes your pipes (which were once made of lead).
The idea was dropped in the 50s for both lines, they just figured the 44 and 46 busses had enough service, and there also was talk of a free transfer like on the L, Line, that never came about until the Metro Card. Also if people took the bus to the subway, it was faster taking the Ave U, Ave R, Kings Hwy and the B 9 to the Brighton Lines
Boy were they wrong about the B44 and B46 buses having enough service.....
3TM
It was great to meet up with Paul Matus today on the Franklin Shuttle.
We had alot to talk about including the fact that we are both Erasmus Hall High School graduates.
The funny thing about our Franklin trip was my having spotted Paul snapping away at Park Place station as I went riding the R-68 in an attempt to locate Paul on the line. Our original meeting spot was Franklin & Fulton, but due to my late arrival Paul had already rode the Shuttle down to Franklin and on his return trip north stopped over at Park Place. As my southbound hippo pulled into Park Place I immediately noticed the Paul, who had that touristy look (ie camera in hand).
It was sort of a "mini-railfan" outing with the two of us chatting it up about the old Silver Leaf publications. Paul also pointed out to me remnants of the old Consumers' Park station and adjacent brewery buildings that are just behind the Franklin ROW.
SubDude
Doug, it was a pleasure. I've been thinking it was the most momentus meeting on the BMT since William Gove was introduced to William Menden. ;-)
Before I met Doug, I was photographing from the street on Park Place, trying to duplicate angles for photos I've got from 1905 and 1965. If the photos I took today come out (I was using a disposable camera--don't even ask!), I hope to post them on rapidtransit.net.
I soaked up the good Brooklyn air and peaceful environment on Park Place after dropping some stuff in noisy, crowded Midtown. As I absorbed the friendly Brooklyn vibes I silently cursed out Seth Low and the other Brooklyn City burghers of a century ago for selling out Brooklyn to Gotham in exchange for lower property taxes.
As to the Shuttle, my first impression was slightly stunned. I approached from the eastbound elevator from the C train--I've been mulling it over and I think the elevator has more stops than the shuttle.
Anyway, I'm reminded of a Second City TV routine. They're doing "The Dating Game." Two of the males peek around the curtain to take a look at the girl, yell, and run off, leaving only Rabbi Karloff, who gets to date her whether he wants to or not. Upon seeing her, he says "From the sound of things, I was expecting worse."
So that's my pocket assessment of the New Franklin Shuttle.
Franklin Avenue station itself was completely disorienting. It appears that the active track is the former northbound (westbound) main. The new platform appears to be over the southbound. With the short platform I got the impression that I was on a renovated Norristown Line station, not a NYC subway line. But the main point is this is a totally new station.
Once you leave Franklin Avenue, you can't help noticing how close you are to Park Place, and how unnecessary Dean Street was (which existed mainly to mollify people a century ago who lost Bedford Terminal).
I kept an eye out on the right-of-way to get a laymans' view of how easy/difficult it would be to lengthen platforms/double track. As to the former, not difficult at all, though at Franklin they would have to build a new platform considerably south of where the old platform was, since the single track does not come as close to Fulton as it did.
As to double-tracking, it wouldn't be a piece of cake, because of some amount of power dept. furniture, and some badly placed reinforcement, but neither would it be extremely difficult, especially given that they placed the single track to the east side of the mostly intact viaduct sections. If they really wanted to put the kibosh on ever double-tracking, all they needed do was center that single track, for which they would have had a good engineering excuse.
The biggest difficulty, IMO, would be at Park Place, since access to the new station house would be blocked by an additional track and conversion to an island platform.
South of Park Place, I was glad to see they pretty muc left well enough alone--translation, I can still get my 1878 riding experience. Of course, the brick tunnel at Eastern Parkway is the most impressive steam-era relic, and they've spiffed it up and lighted it up. Very nice.
I was fearful that they'd substantially altered the r-o-w south of Botanic Gardens (as in new abutments, tearing out trees, etc., but they didn't. You can still see elevated era trolley line poles, steam-era stone abutments (repointed), '50s cribbing (yuck!) and the location of the Consumers Park siding. They didn't even whitewash the former brewery buildings, and you can still make out the words "BREWERS OF...".
I give the TA high marks on all the stations, though I would have liked Frnaklin Ave. to have a retained a teeny bit of the old elevated feel.
Park Place is the most interesting--I wonder who was inspired to replace the distinctly elevated era station house (similar to those island platform stations on, for example, the Myrtle L, and contemporaneous with and similar to Beverley and Cortelyou Roads) with a new station in classic Sea Beach/1918 Brighton Line Mission-style stucco architecture. A detail I think might escape younger Subtalkers is that the colored globes in front of Park Place, while not resembling the angular BMT subway globes, are nevertheless an "homage" (as they say these days) to the BMT, being green and white, the BMT ID colors.
My last observation is that they wisely provided an exit from Park Place Station to Prospect Place. Most of those that I saw using the station used the Prospect Place end. They weren't so kind to those at Botanic Gardens. I couldn't find any trace, no less a resurrection, of the former entrance on President Street.
I hope to put together a little illustrated piece including this material and more.
Hi Paul,
Looking forward to those pics and other info on your site. Especially for those of us who are forced to love NY from afar, a page or so devoted to the old/new Franklin Shuttle would be a much needed balm. Keep up the great work on your site.
Alan
I have a vision that the R36 mainline cars end up on the Newark Subway.The trains now run from Newark Airport to Arlington or Seacaus Transfer(how convient for passengers). The cars now wear a paint job resembling the 1970s version only now with NJT black on them.
You must have been smoking something really strange. While you're at it, how about a connection with the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line? Better yet, an extension of the PATH from Newark-Penn Sta. to the Newark Airport transfer station.
Those cars are going to be scrapped(with regards to the #7's fleet). NJT would find kind enough to buy the cars as the Aug. 98 TRAINS did a report on NJT mentioning the fact that a loop big enough to hold 2 of the R-36 cars had to be rebuilt for new 90 ft. cars to fit. The redbirds are just as saddening to see leave as NJT's PCC cars. You think up a way for R-62 cars to make it. Or use 36s on the EWR-Arlington line and 62s on the Hoboken/Seacaus Xfer line
I noticed on the older Elevated structures such as the number 2 line between East 180th street and 149th street and on the J line through Brooklyn, apartment buildings are built very close to the "EL especially near a station.Is there a reason for this for example, on the curve that leads into the Simpson Street station, the building sits almost on top of the structure. A train operator on the number 5 line told me they were built like that for labrorers who worked on building the subway there was a man who built these buildings for that purpose, i forgot his name,can anyone help me.
On the J, as it curves off of Jamaica Ave. onto Crescent St, one of the supports actually goes right through a building (used to be a flower shop, not sure what it is now).
This is also true on the curve on the Brighton Line leading from the "alley" onto Brighton Beach Avenue. One of the supports under the Coney Island-bound local track is embedded in one of the stores beneath (I think it's a drug store now).
--Mark
I've never really thought about that when I was riding on the els, but when you're in the reverse position (being in 1 of those close bldgs) it is really weird. We were recently on a police call at a martial arts club on Bway by the Myrtle Av station. I know we walked up 2 flights to the 3rd floor. While taking the report I noticed people standing on the other side of the window, very close. It took a few seconds before it hit me that they were waiting on the platform. Until I realized it it was a really weird sight!!!
Try living along Fulton St, where the J has center platforms. At Cleveland, you can look right into the third floor apartments, because the station and floor of these apartments are exactly the same height from street level. Curtains at these apartments are a MUST.
Thats what I meant about the Myrtle/Bway station-center island patforms with no windscreen!
I would be inclined to say that buildings were built to the building line (property line) and that the builders didn't worry so much how close they were to the els. They weren't willing to give up 5 feet of rentable space to move further from the structure.
In some cases the elevated was rebuilt and widened, so the trains ended up closer to the buildings than originally.
This might explain why the tracks at Myrtle Ave/Bway almost touch the buildings. I would assume they were built before the Bway line was rebuilt for 3 tracks, with Myrtle Ave. being converted into an express station.
I don't see why even the workers would want that. Did they store supplies in the building and pass them to colleagues on ropes?
Basically, the building stays within the normal building lines of the streets in question, the el then follows the street. On curves this brings the el very close to the building, but that is because it can't be avoided.
The building north of Simpson St. houses a karate studio, and you can sometimes see people practicing inside. More often what you see is trophys.
I often wondered if you lived very close to an elevated train if you were able to gain entry to the subway simply by stepping out of your window onto your fire escape and executing a simple hop onto the catwalk ajacent to the tracks,then merely hopping up onto the platform.(such as several areas along the J/Z line).
You could do it for sure at the curve leading into Simpson Street.
Talk about "in your living room"!
--Mark
I often wondered if you lived very close to an elevated train if you were able to gain entry to the subway simply by stepping out of your window onto your fire escape and executing a simple hop onto the catwalk ajacent to the tracks,then merely hopping up onto the platform.(such as several areas along the J/Z line).
If this is possible, I'm sure the reverse is also possible. A burgler could gain access to your apartment from the el, then make his get-away on the el with your stuff!
I wonder how someone could stand to live with the El right outside their window. I'm a relatively heavy sleeper, but I think something like that would have to wake me up. Anyone know what sort of rents the El-view apartments go for?
I wonder how someone could stand to live with the El right outside their window. I'm a relatively heavy sleeper, but I think something like that would have to wake me up. Anyone know what sort of rents the El-view apartments go for?
The noise is something you get used to. People who live close to airports get the same noise and rumbling. Sometimes it gets so loud, you can't hear the TV or the person in the same room your'e talking to.
Things were worse than today back in the late 70's/early 80's. Today's trains sound much quieter now with the new welded track and rehabbed subway cars. Back in the early 80's the noise was much worse on my part of the J line, with that old, rickety track combined with those awful, flat-wheeled R16's.
I moved along the Livonia line, a year and a half ago and so far I have no problem with the 3 roaring by as it heads into Penn. In fact when I hear it, I run straight to my window to watch my beloved R62a's roar by.........
3TM
I've heard that apts next to El's their rents are cheaper truth or false? Also while riding an various Els Flushing line, Jamaica Ave,etc. I seen people in their underwear or PJ's looking out the window with no shame. several people on the train laughed.
Hmmmm, thank god my bedroom window is facing a side street.
When I was a little kid in the late 50's early 60's growing up near Mitchell Field (where the Nassau Coliseum is now) we had military jets fly right over our treetops. I don't think my parents ever got used to the noise and we were glad when it closed!!!
I have lived my entire life in an apartment over a store along Jamaica Ave. in Woodhaven. You simply get used to the train noise. In fact, I have difficulty sleeping anywhere away from the train, because it's too quiet. I was upstate last year, in the middle of nowhere (Geene county) and I could't sleep a lick, because of the incredibly deafening silence.
A friend of mine bought a house in the 80's on Liberty Av under the IND in Ozone Park. It was actually a corner house and the address was the cross-street address. The side on Liberty had no windows. It was an old tudor. He said the trains never bothered him and the times I visited him I don't remember hearing any trains. I think that was post R-10 though on the "A". He eventually sold it, he said he got a good price and moved to Massepequa, a block from the LIRR el. You can hear the trains from there!!!
My brother on the other hand owned a condo in Farmingdale. The E/B platform of the Farmindale Station was right out his bedroom window. Besides hearing the whistles (theres a RR crossing there, he was often awakened by the very loud station P.A. system announcing late trains!!!
In the 70's I lived across the street from the B&O mainline through Panther Hollow in Pittsburgh. There were frequent unit coal trains (day and night) with four and five engine lashups at the front, the middle, and the end of the train pushing those heavy loads up the hill-- all roaring at full throttle.
When the engines went by, all conversation stopped... you couldn't be heard even if you yelled. We just got used to it. Everyone slept fine.
Then one night, I couldn't sleep at all. Came downstairs and found everyone else up, too. What's wrong? Hey, no trains! They were out on strike.
Fortunately, it only lasted a couple of days and we got back to our comfortable, albeit noisy, routine.
I wouldn't try it.
But I have noticed a spot on the Dyre Ave. line where there is a gap in the fence separating someone's back yard from the tracks. He could presumably slip out, walk a short distance along the tracks to the nearest station (Gun Hill Rd. - or was it Baychester?), and climb up onto the platform.
11/09/99
YEAH! Was is the purpose for the hole in the Metrocard? Even CTA's Transit Card has one too.
Bill Newkirk
The hole has something to do with the fareboxes used on buses. Some sort of pin mechanism uses the hole to briefly grip the Metrocard while it's being read.
The original farebox that the TA wanted to use did not have a dip feature which takes the card and spits it up. Instead it had a swipe reader on it. It was tested in 1993 on the Bx-55. The farebox had read and write problems, so the dip style was adopted. In addition, the original machines that the token clerks use to add value to a metrocard also used to house a swipe reader that would program the card. Once again, there was a probelm with reading and writing to the card. So the unit was replaced with one that the token clerk dips the metrocard into.
Makes a lot of sense. Why are they still using swipe readers on the turnstiles? Ever watch some klutz swipe his/her card five or six times at a turnstile and still not get it right?
Why are they still using swipe readers on the turnstiles?
Because it's quicker, I bet, except when the system gets overwhelmed and makes riders reswipe several times.
The TA is about to replace the Read/Write Heads in all the Turnstiles. It's dirt buildup problem vs. the heads wareing out. Therefore they include a new design.
On the bus we're having some different problems, but they haven't appeared on the MTA/TA's radar screen yet.
Mr t__:^)
What are the bus problemsd with the cards?
Lots of read/write errors due to:
- Dirty R/W Heads ... we clean, clean, clean
- Scalloped R/W Heads ... the paper Transfer isn't as kind to the head as the plastic MC is.
- Loose/broken wires ... they're very small and fragile
- Data errors ... which I call "hiccups" because the box is working just fine then it seems to hiccup for no reason.
Disclaimer: The TA says the box is working just fine and is the best thing since sliced bread. (the top of their's is the same as ours).
Mr t__:^)
Actually, I believe it was put there so people can carry the MC on their key chains or wear it around their necks (ala dog tags).
Obviously, if it is used on a bus, the card would first have to be removed from the key/neck chain since the entire card gets inserted into the MC reader.
I love that dramatic moment when my Metrocard gets sucked into the bus farebox, and the gratifying feeling when it's returned.
As close as I'm willing to go to Russian Roulette.
Good gosh, we all (me included, of course) have too much time on our hands. Next thing you know if we swipe it backwards, we'll hear Paul McCartney saying something about the Queen of England.
Don't laugh, I had a card go into the hole and end up in the transfer catch bin. I pointed this out to the driver who got the card out without spilling any of the transfers (quite a full box). I reinserted the card and once more the card went into the transfer bin (no transfer accepted light came on).
Bus driver said I had a defective card and payup or get off. (This is back when the unlimiteds just came out). Had to walk from Bath Ave up to the Sea Beach where the card worked fine in the turnstile and later worked fine on another bus.
Suggestion to my friends:
- Carry a second MC with at least one ride left on it (the card is good for about a year. When it expires just go to the friendly Station Agent or a MVM to move the money to a new card).
BTW, this only works on "value" cards.
- On a bus, if the card goes in and doesn't work, particularly if it goes into the "Capture Bin", with the used Transfers, or has to be hand cranked out by the driver (he/she slides back a door on the side of the farebox) SWITCH to that second card, then get a Station Agent to check out the card (It might be the card or the farebox).
- At subway if the screen says "swipe again", DON'T go to the next turnstile. Try cleaning the mag strip, running it thru at a different speed, etc. As a last resort use that second card. If you experience the same problem ... opps the it's the turnstile. If you ask politely the agent may "turn the wheel" for you.
Disclaimer: I don't work for the MetroCard division of the MTA.
Mr t__:^)
I had assumed it was for blind people to determine the correct way to swipe.
Then what would the slanted part be for?
Do you have a sister named Eileen?
From your name I would ASSume that you are a proctologist????
SubDude
11/10/99
Perhaps he's related to Neil Downe ?
Bill Newkirk
;-)
Dr. Dover is a great friend of a certain Mr. Seymour Butts.
Do you really this we should make this gentlemen the joke of butts?
Ever stick the card in a little too slow, and get a message 'inserted wrong way'? Well, that little hole is for an infrared beam, which determines if you're putting the card in right. The notch in the top is the 'orientation' for a blind user.
-Hank
Anyone know why we in New York pronounce this street's name as HOWston, and not HEWston, like the rest of the world?
Even though I live on West Houston, I'm not quite sure.
My wild guess is that it may have had a Dutch origin rather than English, and somehow, the pronunciation stuck.
That is true. Houston the city has named for Texas revolutionary general Sam Houston, whereas Houston Street was likely named for an early local landowner. It is possible that both names are of like origin, but may have been modified differently in pronunciation through time.
According to "New York, A Guide to the Metropolis, (Walking Tours of Architectural History)", by Gerard R. Wolfe, Houston Street was named for William Houstoun. The street was named by Nicholas Bayard III, who's daughtor married Houstoun in 1788, after Houstoun served three terms as Georgia deligate to the Contintental Congress. The current spelling is in error.
LOL. I guess it goes on the mispelled street list, like Beverley Rd.
I don't know the history of Beverley Rd.
[The street was named by Nicholas Bayard III, who's daughtor married Houstoun in 1788, after Houstoun served three terms as Georgia deligate to the Contintental Congress. The current spelling is in error. ]
Wouldn't it have been really ironic if Houstoun's wife's name was Beverley?
(Back on topic...) I heard a 1 conductor say "HEWston" on the P/A once, and politely corrected him. He was appreciative of the thought.
(Back on topic...) I heard a 1 conductor say "HEWston" on the P/A once, and politely corrected him. He was appreciative of the thought.
Probably an out-of-towner!
Typical of New Yorkers to shorten names, or leave out letters
Easy, its a test to see if a person is really a New Yorker or not.
Houston St goes back to the Dutch Colonial Days. A good 140 years before Sam Houston was a Twinkle in his Daddy s Eyes. I love to call the City Howston, in front of a couple of my Texan Friends. They keep correcting me, but I tell them it is a Dutch Name way before Sam was around, and what do they know they are from Texas anyway
That's what my mother would tell me when I was little. If she saw people at the subway map saying HEWston St., she'd say "Tourists for sure".
As of the time I wrote this message, I got a transmission with my scanner from the Control Center regarding a service suspension on Lexington Av 4,5, and 6 lines. The power's off between Grand Central and Brooklyn Bridge, forcing a suspension of service. The following plan was executed accordingly:
4 Trains: Southbound trains from the Bronx were being turned at 59th or 86th Sts. Northbound trains from Utica will be turned at Bowling Green or Brooklyn Bridge.
5 Trains: Trains from Dyre are operating by 7th Av to South Ferry and back to Dyre (still on the West Side). Any trains coming from Brooklyn and heading to Dyre will operate by 7th Av.
6 Trains: Trains from Pelham were to turn at 59th St, although Westchester Master Tower was turning several at 138th St and 3rd Av.
Thoughts Are Welcome,
Stef
It looks like service is just starting to come to normal.
-Stef
You said "Thoughts are welcome". Well my thought is I'm glad to be on Long Island.
Does it matter? I'm in Brooklyn and I also couldn't care less about the Lex. I don't ride it anymore, I use the M102 Limited, simply because I'M NOT A COW!
That's a shame. I guess people who ride it should give a damn. Well, so much for being informative. Read the thread if it applies to you, ok, otherwise don't bother.
-Stef
Agree and Ditto!!!!!!!!!
3TM
THANK YOU!!!!
-Stef
Your welcome..... Anytime..........
3TM
Sorry if you thought I was being rude, but Jeff posted about how we was happy to be on LI and not affected by it, and I posted how I live in Brooklyn and am not affected by it. Also, I ride the M101/102, not as an alternative to the Lex, but as a 50 block northbound detour so I can enter the Q at Lexington station and get a seat.
Fine. We'll leave it at that.
-Stef
How long is this going to last???
Service is already back to normal. It was very brief. I can't explain why there was a power outage but there was indeed one.
-Stef
According to the "Service Disruption" sign posted at Command Center ( I was there Wed morning for a tour), it was an AC power disruption, causing all signals from 125 to Brooklyn Bridge to go dark, thereby sending all Lex service BIE.
Some recent threads on food and toys have been deleted. Please lets try a little harder to stay on topic.
-dave
Dave, part of the fun of this message board is reminiscing about old New York. I didn't see the harm in those threads.
I must agree.
Even though those posts were certainly off topic, they were a great diversion from some of the more mundane rapid transit subjects that for one reason or another got bogged down in personal and/or, very subjective rhetoric.
SubDude (soon to return to Doug aka BMTman)
Even though those posts were certainly off topic, they were a great diversion from some of the more mundane rapid transit subjects that for one reason or another got bogged down in personal and/or, very subjective rhetoric.
Yeah! If I see one more thing about the strike, I'll scream!
[return of Doug aka BMTman]
YEAAAAA!!
Doug aka BMT Man: Welcome back! You have your real name back and not some silly designation that did you no justice. Tonight I'm going to search out some printouts dating back to July 7 when you ( I thought it was you) gave me my nickname. It went something like: "With all due respect you've earned the title of Mr . Sea Beach. I almost feel like Chris Berman on ESPN. If it wasn't you I'll find that out too. I do know that RedbirdR33 confirmed my new title by saying he thought that was appropriate. Anyway, good to have you back.
Thanks Sea Beach Fred.
It's good to be my "old self" again.
Chow for now.
Doug aka BMTman
Dave, part of the fun of this message board is reminiscing about old New York. I didn't see the harm in those threads.
I totally agree. As long as its a topic that has to do with New York and is of interest to us railfans, there's no harm. There's harm when non-railfans create threads that have nothing to do with railfans' interests or NY. Take for instance, if someone from Memphis started a thread about country music or farming. That kind of stuff doesn't belong here.
BTW, just to keep this thread on topic, what this city needs is a subway on Second Avenue and a new Manhattan Bridge.
If I see one more thread about the 2nd Ave Stubway I'll scream ;-)
Mr t
SECOND AVENUE!
Slowly I turned...
Fine, whatever, then from now on I don't want to hear any complaints about how slow the server is. I also don't want to hear any complaints about how most threads end up being about race and/or politics. I don't want to hear that someone feels personally attacked in a thread that has gotten wildly out of hand. In fact, I don't want to hear any complaints at all. You guys want to ramble all over the place that's fine. I won't police it any more.
-Dave
[Fine, whatever, then from now on I don't want to hear any complaints about how slow the server is. I also don't want to hear any complaints about how most threads end up being about race and/or politics. I don't want to hear that someone feels personally attacked in a thread that has gotten wildly out of hand. In fact, I don't want to hear any complaints at all. You guys want to ramble all over the place that's fine. I won't police it any more.]
Things aren't quite as bleak as they might seem. Sure, some threads do get a bit off-topic, but that happens on just about any sort of message forum I've ever seen (and that's not to mention Usenet!) And thread drift sometimes can be interesting, taking you in new and different directions. As far as personal attacks are concerned, I've rarely seen one on Subtalk (another big difference from Usenet, of course). It might just be that some people are hypersensitive, which happens everywhere.
Race and politics? I wouldn't say that most threads end up dealing with these subjects, although it does happen. But that's no surprise. Transit is intertwined with politics, whether we like that or not. And race comes up from time to time as well.
Dave: I know a few sub-talkers disagreed with your decision but perhaps it might be prudent to wait until some other responses come in.
I discovered sub-talk about a year ago and its something I look forward to everyday when I come home from work. The level of discourse on this web site is far above the mainstream on the internet. It also has provided a medium to meet many of my learned colleagues at different venues.
You are absolutely correct in discontinuing treads when they stray too far from the beaten path. However bear in mind that many times in relating a transit story its necessary to relate to a non-transit event. Sometimes these little diversions add color and perspective to a posting. What does seem too happen though is that someone will be speaking about a field trip,mention a short break for coffee and donuts and the next thing you know we have several threads about which flavor of Dunkin Donuts is the best.
I realize and appreciate the Herculean effort that running this site entails. It has gone beyond just being a railfan chat box to become a valuable public information source for many outside the railfan community. Look how many postings come from people in agencies or doing research about transit asking for help from the assembled crew.
If I may suggest perhaps an admonishment posted at the head of this column advising posters that if they wish to discuss matters outside the purview of this column that they should e-mail the parties concerned, otherwise their threads will be deleted. This should absolutely be the rule with a thread descends into a nasty and vindictive tone. Common sense should apply;certain topics are not discussed at the dinner table as they are sure to get someone upset.
Best Wishes
Larry, RedbirdR33
I'll second Larry's comments. This is the only message board that I post on because it is the only one I've found in my main area of interest where most of the discourse stays close to topic and where flamage is at a minimum. Dave, your policing helps to keep it that way, and I'm concerned that if you stop policing things the board will get out of hand and become an undesirable place. Heck, my wife (who isn't really interested in transit) even reads the board on occasion because she says it helps her understand me (that's a hopeless situation, but nonetheless I'm glad she tries).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lucky man ! I couldn't even get my wife to look at the group photo at the June Newark City Subway Field Trip :-(
Mr t
[I don't want to hear any complaints at all. You guys want to ramble all over the place that's fine. I won't police it any more.]
Please don't think the few that responded here speak for the majority.
This site has and I'm sure will be a great place for me to LEARN about mass transit, not to mention the new friends I've met & the fun I've had riding the rails because I found out about it here.
This writer appreciates it when you delete flaming threads. I think some of those folks now realize that we'll listen and respond if they make thoughtful comments. Like our friend Larry, I think a good debate is a healthy thing, but that's only ONE facet of the topic that we love to talk about.
Mr t__:^)
I agree. One or two random comments about food and old TV shows as a part of a train-or-track-related topic is fine, but I for one am happy that the dozens of messages that seemingly had nothing to do with either have been deleted. This *ISN'T* and shouldn't be a forum for reminiscences about old NY.
To SubTalkers' credit, however, there is a very low level of flamage compared to other BBs I frequent, however. And this despite the heated passions of topics like a (potential) strike.
This *ISN'T* and shouldn't be a forum for reminiscences about old NY.
You've brought up an interesting point here. I agree AND disagree. I think mention of certain things that relate to the way the world is now is appropriate on such a New York oriented forum. Example--Ebingers was as much a part of Brooklyn and Church Avenue as the trolley that ran there. The two are associated in my mind. Someone mentions that Entenmann's did Ebinger's in, but most don't seem to be aware that Entenmann's also was a Flatbush institution.
Of course, you can start to go far afield when you start mentioning individual products ("were Charlotte Russe's better than eclairs" kind of thing) but look how much comment it gets.
However, I would like to say a word for mentioning "side" topics to add color to straight transit postings--I've been getting a number of opinions on Cudahy's Malbone book, a subject I know a lot about. For the most part Cudahy stayed doggedly "on topic," but in the process lost a lot of the richness which would have made the book and its times more vivid for someone who never lived it.
Compare this to Seyfried, who is nothing if not a great researcher (better than Cudahy, IMO, or myself, for that matter) but also does not miss the story which may seem "off-topic" such as the decisions made in the management of the Manhattan Beach hotel.
When I get done with one of Seyfried's chapters, I know a lot more than that on x date, choo-choos began running via Culver, the Bay Ridge Line, and the Manhattan Beach Line to the hotel. I feel like I've just ridden the line and had a cocktail in the hotel bar.
I'm not calling for wholesale thread drift a la nyc.transit. Just giving my opinion that there's more to appreciate in transit than just how many wheel detectors are between DeKalb and Pacific and what their timings are.
I'd like to hear some of the younger people's opinions of this. I'd also like to hear what people think who read the Morton Morris old West End piece on my site. That went way off topic, was imprecise in its history, yet when I re-read it, I feel like I've had a ride on the line 120 years ago.
I do completely agree that if our messages do not match the main subject, change the header.
As a not token comment, however: It's Dave's work, Dave's server, and Dave's nickel that gives us this BB, so what Dave says is the law. And I say that with gratitude. But maybe he'd like a sense of what folks here consider important or not.
[re "background" information as relevant to transit]
As I noted elsewhere, transit is tightly intertwined with politics, as well as history and economics. Looking at transit-related issues in isolation can be confusing or misleading. Tossing in some seemingly off-topic background information makes the transit issue easier to understand. For instance, there's no way to explain today's overcrowding on the Lexington Avenue line without some mention of the city's fiscal crisis of the 1970s. Delving a little deeper into the origins of that crisis might seem to be getting far afield from transit, but it all ties into the Lexington explanation.
Now here's a trivia question: how did Gavrilo Princip contribute to overcrowding on the Lexington line?
Answer:
1. Gavrilo Princip's assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand contributed to the outbreak of World War One.
2. Germany's defeat in World War One led the allies to impose the punitive Treaty of Versailles.
3. German reaction to the Treaty helped pave the way for the rise of Hitler.
4. Hitler's rise caused many affluent, Socialist-leaning German Jews to flee to the United States, with many of them settling on the Upper West Side.
5. Political pressure from these Upper West Siders led NYC to enact a wide-ranging social welfare and health care system in the 1950s and 1960s.
6. Social welfare and health costs produced the city's fiscal crisis in the 1970s.
7. The fiscal crisis led to the infamous Beame Shuffle, which killed off the Second Avenue Subway.
8. Finally, the lack of the Second Avenue line is why the Lex is so crowded!
Interesting post in more ways than one.
Whereas you've made a good case on one level, you have to accept so much on faith (beginning with--would WWI actually have been avoided if Princip lived?) on all eight points that the cause-effect relationship is diluted to the vanishing point.
But I'll try not to add much more to this thread drift.
[Interesting post in more ways than one.
Whereas you've made a good case on one level, you have to accept so much on faith (beginning with--would WWI actually have been avoided if Princip lived?) on all eight points that the cause-effect relationship is diluted to the vanishing point.]
After I posted the thing I started thinking about that famous illustration of chaos theory - how a butterfly's flapping its wings in China eventually causes a storm in France. Chaos theory probably would be a good way of explaining subway operations :-)
You also proved a few things about the world's (your?) attitude about Jews:
1. Affluent ("of course")
2. Assaulted murderously (does this follow point 1?)
3. Socialist (wait - I thought they were capitalist)
4. Social concern (gee, maybe they are not just selfish fat cats)
4. Economic influence (there they go again...)
5. Economic problems (we know where to point the finger, don't we?)
5. What comes next, Peter?
[You also proved a few things about the world's (your?) attitude about Jews:
1. Affluent ("of course")
2. Assaulted murderously (does this follow point 1?)
3. Socialist (wait - I thought they were capitalist)
4. Social concern (gee, maybe they are not just selfish fat cats)
4. Economic influence (there they go again...)
5. Economic problems (we know where to point the finger, don't we?)
5. What comes next, Peter?]
I'm certainly not saying that the Jews who came to the Upper West Side in the 1930s were representative of their religion in general. They were a fairly cohesive group, who were in most cases affluent and left-leaning - if they hadn't been affluent, they wouldn't have been able to leave Germany and settle in what even then was an expensive area, and their Socialist leanings made them an early target of Hitler's wrath and prompted them to leave when it was still possible. And yes, it's a fairly well-established fact that they had considerable political influence in NYC in the postwar years, and as such presumably bore some degree of responsibility for creation of the City's health care and social welfare system (which probably seemed like a good idea at the time ... but we know that the path to Hell is paved with good intentions). Even today the Upper West Side is an extremely liberal and affluent area, probably the most liberal white neighborhood in the United States except for a few college towns. And I would imagine that at least some of the descendants of the 1930s refugees are still living in the neighborhood.
I can't leave this discussion alone without noting that the two people whose policies most directly led to the high social welfare spending which contributed to the specific financial burdens which helped put the City in dire financial straits in the '70s were LaGuardia and Lindsay.
OK, technically LaGuardia was Jewish insofar as his mother was born Jewish and according to Jewish religious law he could be considered a Jew by matriarchal lineage. But he was not a German Jew, he was not raised as a Jew, and he never lived in nor was a part of any organized Jewish community, and I doubt he or anyone else considered him Jewish.
And Lindsay was WASP-City.
Peter. As a person of Jewish parents although not
from the Upper West Side, I am uncomfortable with
the use of the words " The Jews ". I also don't
really know if it was only the wealthy Jewish people who
left
Germany. But I do know that it wasn't just their
socialist leanings that caused Hitler's special
attention to the Jewish people. And I don't know if
there were only wealthy Jewish people on the ship
that was
trying to escape Germany, and which was turned away
from this country and sent back to Germany. Nor do
I think it was only wealthy Jewish people that were
sent to
the ovens. Putting my poor understanding of history
aside, the use of "the Jews" sets off alarms in even
my complacent head.
I understand what you mean. What gave the Upper West Siders much of their "character" was not the fact that they were Jewish. That's the Lower East Side 20 years earlier. And I suspect that most of the Upper West Siders weren't particularly religious. No, it was the fact that many if not most of them adhered to Socialist or at least leftist political beliefs. There was a strong Socialist movement in Europe in the 1930s, one that attracted adherents from all religious and ethnic groups. Being Socialist *and* Jewish was a double liability for a German once Hitler came to power, and the resulting fears fueled immigration to America. Non-Jewish Socialists were not quite as hated and therefore were less likely to flee, which presumably turned out to be a fatal mistake for many.
Exactly why so many of the refugees settled on the Upper West Side is open to debate; it may well be that the area already had a strong liberal tradition. Certainly it wasn't prompted by religious reasons. And finally, you're quite correct about what happened to Jews once the Final Solution began. It didn't matter if they were poor, or politically conservative, the outcome was the same.
Steering this slightly back onto a transit topic, one of the reasons they may have settled there is the neighborhood was becoming more attractive in the late 1930s, with the Ninth Ave. el coming down and the IND subway on CPW going in.
I am quite gratified that people spoke up forcefuly on this subject.
You see the point I wanted to bring out was that it's not so much the academic curiosity about whether it was liberal Jews or not who guided us in one direction or another.
The point is the fact that even when honest citizens, with decent (I should say very decent) intentions have an influence, and not because of any corruption I might add, if those citizens are Jews --
well, right away their freedom to be politically/socially active in a free country (even America it would seem) is questioned! Somehow they are too influential - as if America doesn't want just any citizen to work legally for change!
I have my spiritual ideas why this happens - perhaps I'll leave that for private discussions by email for those who wish...
But from a social viewpoint the trend is despicable. What does it matter if a decent person is Jewish or otherwise if he honestly tries to do the right thing? Paul's point about Lindsay certainly shows that a prominent liberal leader was a WASP and Koch shows a prominent Jewish leader can be relatively conservative.
The point is that there is a dishonest explanation that goes on about the issue being a Jew's political philosophy or influence. The truth would seem to be a resentment of the Jew's spiritual drive to "repair the world" (what we call "tikun olam" in Hebrew) and the resentment some feel at this involved attitude. The result is that one day Jews are hunted as liberals, the next as conservatives (such as portraying Israel - attacked in 4 wars from all sides - as a conqueror when finally land falls into its hands in the last war).
The holocost cannot possibly be explained without a deeper look into the spiritual psyche of the "people" who could begin to justify eradicating millions of men, women and children.
Pete: Terrific. Anytime you decide to visit California, stop by Arcadia High School and I'll make you a guest lecturer in one of my 20th Century American History Classes. I ready enjoyed that thread.
WW I was going to happen even without the Assisanation, it was just a matter of time, we are still seeing the ramifications in the Balkens now, now lets get back to the subject. Transit
Since this has gone a little further, I'll go a little further, since this has relevance to the study and understanding of history which does have transit relevance. Although your example is pushing it, people draw these comparisons all the time, especially in popular history.
First, let's look at this statistically [any statisticians/mathematicians out there correct my methodolgy]:
You have seven steps from Sarajevo to Second Avenue containing eight suppositions. To say that step one caused step eight, you would reasonably have to assert the truth of each step. None of your points is ridiculous (value of zero) but none is unarguable (value of 100).
Let's be extremely generous and give each a value of 90, indicating a strong expectation of accuracy of each poiny. So if you take as given that Princip's murder caused (not simply influenced) WWI (a necessary supposition for all else that follows) with 90% accuracy, you then come to the second point which, with another 90% accuracy rating, brings the hypothesis down to a probability of 81% (90% x 90% or .9 x .9)
So since we have eight suppositions to be tested, this becomes .9x.9x.9x.9x.9x.9x.9x.9 = .43 (43%). So without even arguing the individual points, we have dropped below 50-50 probability.
But, since this has some transit interest, let's lightly examine each point.
1. Gavrilo Princip's assassination of Archduke Francis Ferdinand contributed to the outbreak of World War One.
Contributed is not caused. Most scholars think the murder only affected the timing.
2. Germany's defeat in World War One led the allies to impose the punitive Treaty of Versailles.
Well, obviously the Treaty of Versailles could not have been imposed if Germany had won.
3. German reaction to the Treaty helped pave the way for the rise of Hitler.
This is not the only reasonable result of the Treaty's imposition. It might have led to the rise of a brilliant statesman who could have mollified the Allies and rebuilt Germany.
4. Hitler's rise caused many affluent, Socialist-leaning German Jews to flee to the United States, with many of them settling on the Upper West Side.
Socialist-leaning Jews (and others) gravitated to New York City way before Hitler.
5. Political pressure from these Upper West Siders led NYC to enact a wide-ranging social welfare and health care system in the 1950s and 1960s.
One of the most dubious assumptions. Many factors, groups and individuals, other than German Jews set New York social policy. This assumption also assigns an unrealistic value to the power of this specific group.
6. Social welfare and health costs produced the city's fiscal crisis in the 1970s.
An essential, but hardly lone element.
7. The fiscal crisis led to the infamous Beame Shuffle, which killed off the Second Avenue Subway.
Immediate cause only. Other candidates: Demographic changes, Unification, the shift from a transit-based to an auto-based national transportation sensibility, Mayor Hylan and the heavy rapid transit debt load caused by the first IND system.
8. Finally, the lack of the Second Avenue line is why the Lex is so crowded!
I would say that the lack of the Second and Third Avenue elevateds is why the Lex is so crowded!
Interesting analysis! I haven't seen anyone use that method of analysis since grad school.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Compare this to Seyfried, who is nothing if not a great researcher (better than Cudahy, IMO, or myself, for that matter) but also does not miss the story which may seem "off-topic" such as the decisions made in the management of the Manhattan Beach hotel.
What reference (book) are you referring to here? SOunds like a good read.
--Mark
Any of his seven-volume "Comprehensive History of the Long Island Rail Road." All out of print now, in a limited edition of from 500 to about 750, IIRC.
Volumes 4-5-6 especially are of special interest to BRT fans.
At least one of them is back ... BRT Trolley Lines in Queens. 1959
was re-printed & enhanced a bit, 1997 I think. I found it at Shoreline at Branford, might be a TA Museum. Understand a set is at Garden City library (haven't been there yet but I intend to).
This one has lots & lots of detail & photos.
Mr t__:^)
Paul, Thurston .. thanks for passing this information on.
--Mark
After reading all this, maybe you guys are right. This site isn't here for my benefit. I'm still not sure toys and baked goods are that relevant but it doesn't matter since I don't plan to police the threads any longer. All I ask is a little reflection before you carry on a thread that is obviously heading far afield.
-Dave
Dave, I'd just add a repeat of what's been said before -- if a topic goes "off-topic," please change the subject. That way, if I'm on a diet, I can skip the food and go right for the trains :-)
Just back from a quick 24-hour trip to NYC, and I must say that there have been some excellent discussions this past day to catch up on (whew!).
The most interesting part of my trip was entering the 23rd street West Side IRT downtown station last night, and I saw a lot of people with guns near the token booth. Sure enough, the Money Train was in the station! I watched (from a polite distance) the whole process.
After reading all this, maybe you guys are right. This site isn't here for my benefit. I'm still not sure toys and baked goods are that relevant but it doesn't matter since I don't plan to police the threads any longer. All I ask is a little reflection before you carry on a thread that is obviously heading far afield.
-Dave
Thank you. All any of us are trying to do with our suggestions is help to make the site better, whether its thread discussion or about the speed of the server. Don't take our feedback and input as a personal attack. It's not meant to be.
Thanks, Dave. I think most of us here are adult enough to know when to "leave well enough alone" and go back to on topic subjects.
Again, I will try and stay on topic and not create too much "drifting".
Doug aka BMTman
Being a frequent reader but infrequent poster,I enjoy much of the info available on this site. I just rarely have enough knowledge to add usefull information. I have contributed to some off-topic threads, because it was a topic I had something to add to. I do agree this site isn't the right place for it, and will accept a guilty plea as well. Will keep 'on track' in the future!
Aww man, and you say this just as I was about to say that who's off-topic.
A wise guy, aaay! Why I outta....
N'yuk! N'yuk! N'yuk!
Oh no! Bang ZOOOOMM!! To the MOON with you!!!
--Mark
I was just thinking last night, do they still make Charlotte Russes?
Being a "culprit" to many off-topic threads although I do enjoy a little diversion every now and then, I agree that this is Dave's site and he calls the shots. Period.
I will try (as best I can) to stay on transit/rail subjects and not to post NEW off-topic threads. However, bare in mind that I MIGHT get tempted to answer an off-topic post that was created by another SubTalker (I guess that makes me an accessory to the crime?).
Anyhow, I appreciate all Dave has done with this very good site and I wouldn't want any "policing tactics" in the future. So lets all try and stay on topic. I'll do my part.
P.S. The BMTman IS BACK! (due to popular demand)
Now we have both BMT Man and the Franklin Shuttle back. Life is good.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Amen!
How's this for an intro?
Faster than a multisectional. More powerful than a Triplex. Able to smash a BMT standard as though it was tinfoil.
Look! Over on the express track - it's a Bluebird; it's a Zephyr; it's... BMTman!!!!!
Able to smash a BMT standard as though it was tinfoil
But... but... BMTman would never do that.
His archnemesis, the evil Dr. LoVee might. But BMTman would never...
What are you trying to do? Destroy all my idols?
No fear!!! BMT Man would not even consider smashing a BMT standard as though it were tinfoil.... An R16......Maybe!
Thanks guys!
I get my superpowers from the traction motors of the Standards, so I could never do harm to them! Dash the dreaded thought!
I'll deal with that evil Dr. Lo Vee ASAP....
Doug aka BMTman
I wonder just how tough a Standard was. After all they were first cousins to the Staten Island ME-1's and an old Q knocked one of them clear off the BMT.
Also while the Standards were tough they had awful slow accerlaration and while they would be winding up for the pitch a Lo-V could kick them in the keister and be halfway to the Bronx before the Standard knew what hit him.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I will confess: Lo-Vs were the best cars Lionel ever put out.
Yes they were better made than the Standards by Matel:
Larry,RedbirdR33
But at least the Standards weren't given out as premiums in boxes of Cracker Jack.
"Able to smash a BMT standard as though it was tinfoil"??????????
Attaboy Dave! Now you're cookin' Talking about New York in the past brings back some great memories concerning the subway, bakeries, baseball, candy stores, etc. Almost all of these entities were in some way connected to the subway like, for instance, a candy store that made great egg creams right above a subway station. You run a great website, so chill out and take a bow.
As someone who has contributed to thread drift in the past (and who will try to keep on topic from now on) I'd like to ask you to please reconsider your decision to give up policing the board. Although I dearly love Abbott & Costello; The Three Stooges; and the rest -- any thread that becomes SOLELY devoted to these kinds of off topic matters should be deleted to help make this board better able to serve those who tune in for transit topics.
Alan
First, this is Dave's site so he makes the rules ...
Second, I don't mind a little diversion in topics, but please if you're going to take a detour please alter the "Subject" as some, like myself, have to budget my time on this site. Knowing what the thread is about helps me skip over topics that don't interest me too much.
Mr t__:^)
I'm going to side with David on his call. And that may strike people as strange, because frequently my posts are on the borderline if not over. There are times when I've signed a post as heypaul--Officer Joe Bolton, and I'm just throwing up a name from the past that brings back memories. Then people pick up on it, and posts become totally oriented about television and other things. I feel guilty about that, for having initiated a derailing of the general direction of SubTalk. Which is not to say I haven't enjoyed talking about Ebingers or Lafayette Radio or Bud and Lou. David's name is frequently associated in links to SubTalk. As creator and maintainer of this space, I think he has a right to say how he feels things are going. That puts him in the position of an authority, sort of, and none of us likes to be directed or redirected. We make use of SubTalk very easily, yet it has taken and still takes a lot of work on David's part to keep it running. Exactly how much work, I can only guess, but I think it is an awful lot.
Any solutions? The other day in my Bouncing Off the Padded Wall Post, I ended it mentioning The Outer Limits. One of the guys put up a post about how much he liked it. It happens to be one of my favorite shows. I e-mailed him a message and I have just met someone new and interesting. I didn't feel right continuing on SubTalk.
Recently I have put up a series of Practice Test Questons for the Train Operator's Exam. I have enjoyed making them up, and some of the guys have enjoyed reading them and responding to them. But is it appropriate? I would be happy to stop it right now if we could make some space to actually throw out some pointers to some of the guys and women here who are planning to take the test. Many of us rail
fans say we would give anything to be a train operator or bus driver. Well, if that possibility hass passed us, or if we are on the job ourselves, it would be a nice deed to help someone coming up. Anybody know how to psych the questions out, or what to expect on this exam, or what kinds of things to study. ( Will there be questions about the recent
Transit Transit programs? Sorry, I couldn't help that. Although it would be funny if the exam came from all the places and things that they talked about.)
This long post has taxed my ability to be serious, and probably taxed your patience with my presence.
My taking this position has nothing to do with David appointing me Web Site Jester or more correctly Web Site Fool.
And finally. Thank you David for your patience with me and us. I will try to warrant it (as well as continue to test it ) heypaul
Your practice question posts are both on-topic and amusing. Even I contributed one, and I am formulating another.
I only joined both bus talk and sub talk in Sept, and I enjoy it very much. Being away from New York, I do miss a lot of things. I am as guilty as the next person on Missing things such as good deli, Entermanns, etc. But I find a lot of pardon my east European slang "Comradship" with the people here, and I feel that we are old friends, even though I nevewr met any of you, and we have a lot of common. Yes I joined Classmates.com, and found 2 very old friends that I have not seen in 40 years. But Transit is a hobby with me since I was a child. And gettin off track once in a while is fun, but we always go back to what is important. Now would someone serve me a Brisket on Challah, Lt Mustard, A Kasha Knish, Dr Browns Cream Soda, and A Large Cup of Frozen Custard for desert Aloha and Mahalo
The classmates.com message boards are fantastic. I've been E-Mailing with at least 5 old friends from my '71 graduating class. I always have my yearbook out. It is almost as good as subtalk for reminiscing.
Yeh Sarge, But I went to 2 HS Madison in Bklyn until the 5th Term and then moved to LA for 3 terms. Funny I always considered Madison my alma mata, because I went K thru 11 1/2 with the same kids, plus when I was a kid I was Madison s Baseball Team Batboy from5-8 Grade, and was one of the few Freshman to ever make the team, even though I only played 5 innings the whole season. But did better my soph year. I am trying to figure if the Houston Astro Coach Matt Galentie was the same Mat Galentie when I was there. I also knew his older brother Ben, who played on the City Championship Team of 1954, Does anyone know. Yes I know we got off topic, but it is related to subways, because from Lincoln s Field, you can look behind at the Culver Line, and see them running the Qs as shuttles and later the SIRT cars.
As David says,can we please get back on Topics relating to Transportation
Thank you
Steve
FDNY
and ,yes ,,I am Jewish ,for those curious parties
How did the Fifth Avenue El get from the Brooklyn Bridge to Fifth Avenue?
How did the Fifth Avenue El get from the Brooklyn Bridge to Fifth Avenue?
Follow this link: http://www.nycsubway.org/histmaps/bmtmap.jpg
That doesn't have the detail I asked for.
That doesn't have the detail I asked for
Ask and you shall receive. What kind of detail are you looking for? If its a track map, I'm sure there's one on the 5th Ave. El on nycsubway.org.
It was Sands St to Myrtle, to Hudson, to Flatbush to 5th Av.
It shared track with the Myrtle Avenue El for a while before branching off. It also split two ways off 5th Avenue south of 36th Street station - one branch went east to the Culver and 9th Avenue, the other went west down 38th or 39th then south down 3rd Avenue to terminate at 65th Street. That goes back a LONG ways.
Wayne
THANKS! That's just what I wanted. I also want to know what the purpose of the Coenties Slip curve was (wrong el, I know).
where is the Coenties Slip and I will look it up for you. I have the Brooklyn El right next to me
That's in Manhattan on the South Ferry branch of the 2/3 Ave el
I heard that there some type of remnant at Flatbush and 5Av? I will check again sometime soon........
3TM
Did you try the book Brooklyn Elevateds?
I found a map of the BMT in 1939 it includes the 5th Ave Line. It looks like 3 branches from the South, The West End, and the Culver connected at 9th Ave, and 39th St and turned up Fifth Ave. The 3rd Branch Started on 3rd Ave and 65th St in Bayridge made 4 Stops on 3rd Ave, turned East on 39th St to 5th, turned north on 5th, connected to Culver and West End. North on 5th Ave, to Flatbush, Left on Flatbush for about a block or 2, rt. (but it doesn t say what street, North to Myrtle Ave, just west of Navy St, then followed the Myrtle Route, across the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row. I hope this helps
Here is a borderline tech question: On many R-32 cars
the PA speakers will emit a loud whine as the cars travel
between stations. The c/r does not have the mic switch
depressed at the time. The whine comes and goes.
Has anyone looked into this problem? My ear tells me the whine
is 180 Hz, i.e. the ripple present on top of the 600 VDC because
of the 3-phase solid state rectification. The noise comes on
when traction power is being applied, goes off in coast or
dynamic brake. My guess would be a faulty PA amplifier relay
leaving the amplifiers keyed up, and the whine is simply the
strongest induced signal.
I've heard similar noises on DC Metro and Amtrak PA Systems. Isn't there an easy fix for this common problem? Some sort of in-line filter? What about just clamping a magnet around the wire, like they do with a lot of computer cords to limit electromagentic interference?
We noticed this on Monday on an R40 on the "Q". The noise was quite loud and was only coming out of ONE of the speakers, the one closest to the "A" end of the car (we were in the lead car). I thought that giving it a whack might cure it but that didn't do it. The noise eventually subsided and went away.
Wayne
I know it has something to do with the static convertors as turning the one off in the car where the PA Mic is activated stops this problem unless the AMP Gain is turned up too high. Microphone volume does not cause the problem described. R-68s have this problem primarily in the IC speakers but they also generate this whine when the train ahead of them on the same track circuit accelerate. I always noticed this problem on the relay position at 205 Street when the train in the terminal pulls out. A baffling question indeed.
turning the one off in the car where the
PA Mic is activated stops this problem unless the AMP Gain
But I am talking about the PA squawking after the PA mic switch
has been released, e.g. in between stations. Background noise
from the statics with the mic keyes has always been a problem....remember the R-46
before GOH?
eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeThis is the E to World Trade Centereeeeeeeeeee
Stand Clear of the DoorseeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeDinnnng-Donnnng
sshhhhhhhhhhhh
You talking about feedback? I tape over the mic with masking tape and forget it when that happens. Usually some one misadjused the gain.
But when there's a noise all the time if you cut out the L1 breaker on the offending car, the whine goes away. R-40's do this alot. Apparently the PA still goes through the light trainline. Besides if they use the bottom row, you would have no PA continuity if you coupled to an IRT car for a transfer. RTO would object because train crews need to be able to communicate without tying up the radio.
Feedback can be eliminated simply by keeping the cab door closed. Shops are also no longer permitted to adjust the gain. Such adjustments are made at the electronics lab under controlled circumstances. BTW - only one class of IRT Car still has the 39 pin portion - I believe they are the R-28s @ Pelham.
Ah. I've been out of the CED loop awhile. Nice to know the 62/62a fleet has the four row. Can we now see some imporvements to the IC!? Wouldn't a diode on the + supply help? I had that problem with the amp on 6398 and a diode did the trick.
Sometimes keepng the cab door and the window both closed doesn't help.
BTW, since you left Jamaica he MDBF has gone down. The dead motor lights are as prevalent as end door lights! Cut out doors and down converters and worse: flats.
For a fleet that only ventures out of a tunnel to visit the yard, an awful lot of those R-32's have flats.
Don't count on improvements to the PA/IC ant time soon. The engineers are tripping over each other trying to be next to go to Japan. Other problems seem to have been forgotten. Of course, this is not much different than the routine. Engineering normally has two speeds, slow and backwards.
Sorry to hear that Jamaica has fallen on hard times. I do read the train trouble reports and see that things are not too well. I take no pleasure though. The General Superintendent is a personal friend of mine. I'm sure he's taking the necessary steps to turn things around.
The PA audio is still overlaid on top of the L1 trainline.
But the PA control used to be on the H wire. 0 volts=no
HVAC, no PA. 24 volts=HVAC 36 volts=HVAC+PA keyed up.
With 36 volts on H, the PA amplifier relays pick up and
cause the signal riding on the L1 wire to be amplified and
delivered to the speakers.
The problem with this is you can't turn off the HVAC and still
make PA announcements. When I was with CED, we were designing
ways to split the PA control onto another trainline. I don't
remember what was finally decided and it varied based on car
class.
I noticed that too.
At least I think that's what it was. I was at the front window of an R-32 E going to Jamaica and heard this strange whine coming from one of the ceiling panels above my head.
Sorry to differ but the noise is actually due to lack of suppression in the Static Converter. It varies when the train is under power due to load. However, it is more likely to be around 1,500 Hz. I don't believe human hearing can go down below 200 Hz. at best.
Human hearing is 20 to 20000 cy. You certainly can hear 180,
heck I'm sure you've heard 60 cycle hum before?!
There are two distinct types of PA noise. There is a high frequency
whine which can be heard when the PA mic button is pressed in
but you are not talking. That is undoubtedly interference from the
"statics" which are switchmode power supplies. I am surprised that
they are still using an audio-frequency design as most modern
power supplies are in the 25-200 Khz range. This first type of problem is not new and is not really annoying as you only hear it
as background noise while the PA is active.
The second type of interference which I was talking about happens
when the PA is ostensibly not keyed, e.g. between stations.
I've only noticed it on the M&K R-32 cars. From the loudness
of the whine I'd say that the PA amp relay (is that thing still
hung of the H wire with the kinky 24/36 Volt gimmick or did they
finally put it on a separate trainline?) is getting picked up
or is sticking in.
The sound is definitely 180...I hear that pitch all
the time at the (Shore Line) Trolley museum...it gets all over
everything, especially tough when you are trying to fix a 60 cy
track circuit problem with an inductive pickup!
Of course you are correct. I should have remembered my early days in electronics, repairing TVs and radios (when people actually fixed them). Not only could you see 60 cycle hum but you can hear it too. I don't remember what the nominal frequency of the GE converter is but the #400 comes to mind. the main light inverter ballasts are 1500 Hz.
So I take it this specific problem was never investigated
on the Jamaica 32 fleet? Also, do you happen to know if
the PA control was moved to a spare pin on the 4th row
of the portion or is it still floating on the H wire?
Correct, the problem has not specifically been investigated on ther R-32s. Back in the 80s all PA function was removed from the original configuration of piggy-backing it on the H wire. This was so the crew could turn blowers off in a smoke condition and retain PA function. The problem of uncontrolled hum in the PA/IC is most prevalent on the R-68s. This has been under 'active' investigation now for 10 years with no solution in sight. Investigating the R-32s relatively minor problem would be a waste of time at this point if they can't solve the significant one.
Ooops, I didn't see your post. The H-wire separation was around
91 or 92 cause I was just about leaving CEE when the project
was starting. It was right after a big fire in one of the IRT
tubes where passengers were overcome by smoke. Oh well, too bad
I'm not with the TA anymore, I'd straighten it out....then again
I'd probably go crazy and shoot myself or others first.
"I dont believe human hearing can go below 200 Hz at best"...You may be referring to the type of speakers (particularly horn type) Human hearing in normal people extends from approx 20Hz to 16or17kHz. frequencies under 2ohz are referred to as subsonics and generally felt rather than heard. It`s the upper range that deteriorates w/age and abuse-noisy conditions.
As a sound tech and I`ve wondered;how is the audio transmitted beteween cars is it modulated or does it simply ride on some other D.C. voltage which is then capicitor filtered out. Also why does the audio level vary from car to car. Is there any sort of automatic gain control or compressor to maintain mic levels. I may be wrong but, I`ve noticed NJ trans,NE corridor train p.a.`s seem to have some sort of auto-level device, you sometimes hear it attack when someone speakes loudly at the mic.
11/10/99
The TA has "PLANS" when any kind of heavy snow or freezing weather is forecasted. They go by PLAN #1 , PLAN #2 etc. Does anybody know the wording of the "PLANS".
Bill Newkirk
I don't remember exact words, but I know it basically involves bringing R-68's to various yards and hauling them in passenger service with diesel engines.
The same would apply to R62As on the IRT. Previously Pelham Cars were used in conjunction with the diesels out of Westchester Yard. This was a time when Pelham still had single units. Now that the cars have been permanently linked, I wonder if one additional car to the consist would make a difference? If it does, then Livonia Cars which are still single would have to be utilized for the snow emergency train.
-Stef
You are talking about the SET (Snow Emergency Train) concept.
It is for keeping service going on outdoor lines when the snow
is too severe to run electric trains. 5 SMEEs are hauled as
trailers by a pair of diesels in push-pull configuration (one
at each end of the train). An adapter placed over the electric
portions allows the SMEE trainlines to be used as a giant
12-point jumper and the two diesels MU. The brake pipe is
connected through but the SMEEs are BCO'd so they don't provide
any braking effort. However, if someone pulls the cord the
emergency still works.
11/12/99
Jeff,
I was told by a motor instructor that for instance PLAN-2 meant storing trains usually laid up in Coney Island yard on the 4th Ave. express tracks when snow or subfreezing weather was forecasted. That's why I asked about these "PLANS" unless they were changed by the TA.
Bill Newkirk
The last time I saw the Snow Emergency Train, 2 diesels were pulling 4 Pelham R62As. I wonder if with the Pelham Cars being permanently linked into 5 car sets, if it an additional car would have an effect on the performance of the Snow Emergency Train in question. As I recall, only the diesel's brakes are working. Stopping distances are greater with a diesel compared to that of a passenger car no?
Does the 5th Car make a difference in the Snow Emergency Train?
-Stef
Yeah, stopping distances are lonnnnnnnng. Then again the
trains aren't going too fast
The wording of the plans? The plan is roughly 2oo pages. The plan numbers are triggered by the temp. and/or the amount of snow predicted. Plan I is mearly a formality. During Plan I R-10s were layed up under ground and maximum length trains are run (no cutting). Plan II is for slightly colder weather. When you hit plan IV all trains are layed up under ground in various locations. Snow Comand Centers are established and staffed with reps. from each of the operating divisions. Some trains are equipped with 'scraper' contact shoes. Snow Blower is activated if needed as are rail polisher trains. It really is too involved to cover it all here.
...when it comes to marketing rides at the all-important "POP" (Point-of-Purchase).
On the LIRR you get some of that great feel and flavor of old Olde Tyme Railroading! Real conductors wearing real conductor hats who say real railroady things like "Last Call for the Skunkhaven Express," "All tickets PLEASE," "the Silver Snail will not make its connection to the Diesel Weasel for today only!" and "the first two cars, last four cars, and car 9345 will not platform at East Quicksand unless you ask the engineer real nice-like!" And they have real railroad conductor punches with interesting designs.
However...
They are absolutely resistant to any attempt to make tickets easy to buy or especially to offer any schemes that might encourage ridership. You can only buy calendar weeklies and monthlies, unlike MetroCard, which you can purchase to start on any day, and paying for your ticket? Fuhgeddaboutit!
I thought of this at Park Place, where I was looking over the new MVM. In addition to the other MC choices, I was able to buy a "Fun Pass" for $4. But the thing that really stunned me was that I paid for it with American Express! Now I don't usually "not leave home without it" in order to buy $4 subway passes, but I just luxuriated in the realization that the TA was trying to make it easy for me to buy what I wanted and pay for it in a way I wanted.
To this date, though the LIRR sells tickets for $200 and more, you can only give them cash, a check with ID (if you still have a ticket agent) or a Debit Card at a machine.
They're so frightened they'll lose a few bucks to a credit card company they won't accept them, even people have gotten used to buying their Wheaties at the local supermarket with credit.
That's not entirely true....there are machines that will accept credit cards in Penn Station, to the left of the ticket windows. In addition if you subscribe to mail n' ride you can get your combo LIRR/Metro Card in the mail and have it charged to a credit card. And if you by the $60 or $63 unlimited ride you get a 9% discount on the LIRR ticket.
But ...
You have to subscribe to mail 'n ride to use the credit card. This is like those book clubs where they send you a book every month UNLESS you tell them NOT to.
AND you can only drop out for two months a year. AND you can only get the discount if you ride the subway. AND it's only for calendar months (so are the MetroCards).
They really make you jump through hoops.
[re LIRR ticket machines that use credit cards]
[You have to subscribe to mail 'n ride to use the credit card. This is like those book clubs where they send you a book every month UNLESS you tell them NOT to.]
You can use credit cards at certain ticket machines in Penn Station even if you're not a mail 'n' ride subscriber. I've done so myself.
As I said there are machines available that use credit cards, but those who commute regularly why would you NOT want to subscribe,,,I have to laugh at those people who wait in line for their monthlies. Since I never take off for a month at a time I would rather have it come automatically instead of requesting... if by chance you forget and it comes - just don;t open and it will be credited..If you need to you can suspend the account for longer than 2 months and in fact you now can make all account changes via automated phone system. Until they devise a system where the conductor swipes/scans your monthly it will be impossible to sell a monthly valid from anything other than the calander month...the $60 metrocard option is not calendar month specfic only the unlimited.
Not so that they can't sell tickets for other than calendar month. The over-the-counter tickets were paper the last time I looked and all you need to do is stamp it with the expiration date when they sell it. That's what they do with 10-trips and all OTC tickets have to be date-validated anyway.
They don't want to do it because a) the conductors would have to spend a few extra nanoseconds noticing a month AND day on commutes instead of just the month and b) they make more money by locking you in to a calendar month.
Then there's the getting a discount ONLY if you use mail-n-ride and ONLY if you buying a full MC for the subway. Why? The money for the discount comes out of the LIRR account, not the NYCTA account. Just more LIRR control-freaking.
The TA seems to want to make it as easy as possible to do business with them, while LIRR still wants you to jump through hoops.
They don't want to do it because a) the conductors would have to spend a few extra nanoseconds noticing a month AND day on commutes instead of just the month and b) they make more money by locking you in to a calendar month.
Paul, I can't speak to (b) above, but having worked as a conductor on a rail transit line, I can tell you that it makes much more of a difference than "a few extra nanoseconds" when you have to read a day rather than just a month. It also makes it much easier to miss an expired card when you have to think about today's date and compare it to the expiration date on the card, rather than just keeping the current month in mind.
Having rolling expiration dates, which I wholeheartedly agree is much better for the passenger, increases the work the conductor must do to the point that it could, on a crowded line, mean having to hire additional conductors or assistant conductors to do the ticketing work.
Regards,
Tim
I see your point, Tim, but I would comment that LIRR conductors already have to keep a lot in mind.
They have to evaluate zones and most of them also check your final destination. I know the latter because if I'm on a train to Huntington with a Babylon ticket (both Zone 9) the conductor will often question that. The issue isn't illegality--policy allows me to got to a different destination in the same zone "for convenience"--it's actually a courtesy to check that I'm not on the wrong train.
They also check weeklies, which have month-day expirations, single tickets of varying sizes, with and without connections, and ten-trips which have rolling expirations. Plus they chop a lot of complicated paper on-train collections ($2 penalty) and step-ups. These paper receipts have to be studied and are very common.
So actually you've focused the issue: the main point is the LIRR's cussedness. They're always afraid their customers are going to get away with something.
Interesting (maybe) historic note. When Austin Corbin (big noise in LIRR history) was President over a century ago, he introduced a number of changes unpopular with the riders. One of them was eliminated rolling expirations on monthlies and insisting on calendar months.
Sorry to deviate, but what is up with the LIRR zones? Why are they not sequentially numbered?
There used to be zones from 1A and 1B with every number up to 15.
They combined zones some years ago to simplify the fare structure.
I see your point, Tim, but I would comment that LIRR conductors already have to keep a lot in mind.
-- rest of explanation snipped, I see your point :-) --
So how would it improve their jobs -- either from their standpoint or yours -- if you gave them *more* to keep in mind?
Just wondering,
-- Tim
So how would it improve their jobs -- either from their standpoint or yours -- if you gave them *more* to keep in mind?
The purpose of a business is not to make work for its employees, improve their working lives, provide a living for its managers and executives or provide profits for its owners or shareholders.
Ir is to provide goods and/or services for its customers and make them as numerous and happy as possible.
From that springs all the other benefits such as making work for its employees, improving their working lives...
Privately owned business often forget that, and often they become ex-businesses.
With publicly owned business, its often the first thing they forget.
NYCTA inaugurated very liberal MetroCard policies and has been rewarded with vastly increased ridership and increased hiring. LIRR makes life difficult for its customers and its ridership stagnates.
[So how would it improve their jobs -- either from their standpoint or yours -- if you gave them *more* to keep in mind?]
The purpose of a business is not to make work for its employees, improve their working lives, provide a living for its managers and executives or provide profits for its owners or shareholders.
Ir is to provide goods and/or services for its customers and make them as numerous and happy as possible.
Um, I think you missed my point. Perhaps I wasn't very clear.
When I spoke of improving their jobs from *your* standpoint, I was primarily thinking of avoiding the need to hire additional conductors, which could be an effect of slowing down their jobs further by adding to the tasks they have to perform. Hiring additional conductors means more money, which means higher ticket prices.
A normal business balances the convenience of its customers with the efficiency with which its employees can perform their jobs. That's called "maximizing profits."
NYCTA inaugurated very liberal MetroCard policies and has been rewarded with vastly increased ridership and increased hiring. LIRR makes life difficult for its customers and its ridership stagnates.
To my knowledge, no human checks the validity of tickets on the NYCTA. Adopting rolling expiration dates for LIRR tickets, without shelling out for new ticket machines, turnstiles, and other infrastructure that would take the ticket-checking duties away from the conductors, would only have the effect of increasing their workload, with the follow-on effects I describe above.
-- Tim
To my knowledge, no human checks the validity of tickets on the NYCTA. Adopting rolling expiration dates for LIRR tickets, without shelling out for new ticket machines, turnstiles, and other infrastructure that would take the ticket-checking duties away from the conductors, would only have the effect of increasing their workload, with the follow-on effects I describe above.
Obviously, we have a few unknowns here. I would argue that the incremental burden of the conductor's keeping in mind the current date with all his/her other chores is small compared with current duties. I would further argue that allowing rolling expirations is one of a number of relatively easy-to-implement changes that increase customer satisfaction and increase ridership.
I don't know what ticketing and conductor duties are like where you are, Tim, but I think you would be surprised at the complexity of LIRR ticket collection. The most burdensome is the collection of on-board fares. The conductor has to determine where the customer got on and where she is going. He has to then quote and collect the appropriate fare, which varies by time-of-day, customer status (senior? child?) and zone. In chopping the ticket he has to cut the fare collected (dollar and cents punches), month, day-of-week, starting zone, ending zone, branch line of eastern origin/destination, any special indication (family fare? senior/handicapped? step-up) and whether the customer is one the final leg of her journey or whether she has to pass through one or more junction points.
Once the customer has passed through a junction point (extremely common--the great majority pass through Jamaica) the next conductor has to lift this ticket, read all the previous conductor's punches (except price and status) to figure out if the customer is on the right train and the ticket is valid and then make the next appropriate punch.
Anyone who uses the LIRR regularly can confirm that I am not exaggerating to make my point.
Also, this all I've just described is unavoidable work. Once the customer presents that she has no ticket, all the following work must be performed. OTOH, rolling expirations on tickets are largely self-policing--i.e., not many people will present an obviously expired ticket.
My overall point, though, is that the LIRR lacks vision when it comes to customer service. They'd use the conductor's chores as an excuse to avoid any innovation that might increase customer satisfaction and ridership.
I wrote:
[To my knowledge, no human checks the validity of tickets on the NYCTA. Adopting rolling expiration dates for LIRR tickets, without shelling out for new ticket machines, turnstiles, and other infrastructure that would take the ticket-checking duties away from the conductors, would only have the effect of increasing their workload, with the follow-on effects I describe above.]
And Paul replied:
Obviously, we have a few unknowns here. I would argue that the incremental burden of the conductor's keeping in mind the current date with all his/her other chores is small compared with current duties. I would further argue that allowing rolling expirations is one of a number of relatively easy-to-implement changes that increase customer satisfaction and increase ridership.
I'll take your word for it. Another unknown that plays into the overall impact is the number of people using monthly cards vs. other types of fare media.
I don't know what ticketing and conductor duties are like where you are, Tim, but I think you would be surprised at the complexity of LIRR ticket collection. The most burdensome is the collection of on-board fares. The conductor has to determine where the customer got on and where she is going. He has to then quote and collect the appropriate fare, which varies by time-of-day, customer status (senior? child?) and zone. In chopping the ticket he has to cut the fare collected (dollar and cents punches), month, day-of-week, starting zone, ending zone, branch line of eastern origin/destination, any special indication (family fare? senior/handicapped? step-up) and whether the customer is one the final leg of her journey or whether she has to pass through one or more junction points.
Once the customer has passed through a junction point (extremely common--the great majority pass through Jamaica) the next conductor has to lift this ticket, read all the previous conductor's punches (except price and status) to figure out if the customer is on the right train and the ticket is valid and then make the
next appropriate punch.
Anyone who uses the LIRR regularly can confirm that I am not exaggerating to make my point.
Whew! Again, I'll take your word for it. For comparison, here's what I have to do when checking tickets on Lidingöbanan (I'll have to do this on Saturday, so this is good practice for me ;-) ).
- If the passenger presents a so-called "period card," I have to check the period of validity (both beginning and ending dates) to make sure the card is currently valid.
- If the passenger presents a strip of discount "coupons," as they are called, I have to check the zone and time of the most recent stamp to see whether it is still valid. Zone validity depends on the zone and number of coupons stamped; e.g., three coupons are valid in two zones. If, for example, the stamp is from zone 2 south of Stockholm, I know the passenger has traveled through zone 1 (central Stockholm), so three coupons are required. If the stamp is from zone 2 north of Stockholm, the passenger can (theoretically) have traveled to my zone (C2) without passing through zone 1, so only two coupons are required. Time validity is dependent on the time of the stamp; a stamp is valid for one hour from the time stamped.
If the stamp is no longer valid, or if the stamp is still valid but the number of coupons is insufficient, I must stamp the correct number of coupons. If the passenger is on his/her way to Lidingö, that's easy (it's all one zone), but if he/she is traveling toward Stockholm, the correct number of coupons will depend on the passenger's final destination, which can be anywhere in Stockholm County. I need to be able to recognize the destination, know what zone it's in, and stamp the correct number of coupons.
- If the passenger wishes to pay a cash fare, I must do all of the above, keeping in mind that the customer may have valid cash tickets but need to buy additional ones for this trip. This also requires me to make change, tear off the cash tickets, stamp them and give them to the passenger.
Also, this all I've just described is unavoidable work. Once the customer presents that she has no ticket, all the following work must be performed. OTOH, rolling expirations on tickets are largely self-policing--i.e., not many people will present an obviously expired ticket.
Can we trade passengers? Here are some of the scams people try to pull on me (and all the other conductors I know) on Lidingöbanan:
- Flash an expired card so fast that we won't see it, and hope we won't have the energy to ask the passenger to show it again.
- If I discover an expired card, I'm supposed to pull it if at all possible. (The reason for this is that booth clerks in the subway are notoriously lax about checking cards, so people often hang on to expired cards so they can ride the subway for free.) Passengers often get very angry when I ask for their cards, even though I (at least initially) ask very nicely. ("Can I take care of that expired card for you?")
- Pretend not to see me. When I position myself directly in front of the passenger, he/she then either (1) pretends to be asleep, or (2) makes an enormous production of looking through 15,000 pockets for a card or ticket.
Any of our conductors would tell you that this is not an exaggeration.
My overall point, though, is that the LIRR lacks vision when it comes to customer service. They'd use the conductor's chores as an excuse to avoid any innovation that might increase customer satisfaction and ridership.
What might be good, it seems to me (Master of Utopian Visions -- that's me!), would be to put in a more modern ticketing system, relieving the conductors of this duty, and retrain them to provide actual *customer service*. (Because of FRA rules, they still have to be on the trains, of course.) Notice I am talking about the LIRR, not about my job.
Regards,
Tim
Can't all of this ticket issuing be automated? British Rail developed portable PORTIS ticket machines which store walk-on fares from just about anywhere in the UK to anywhere else, including concessions, time of day fares, and Travelcards for use on the Underground. They can also take credit card payments.
They also have the machines that accept credit cards at the Hicksville station.
_Pithecantheropus Erectus_ is more evolved than the LIRR.
Hear, hear!
Another gripe: On Metro North, you can use TenTrip tickets for multiple riders on the same train. When I (foolishly) assumed I could do the same on the LIRR, the conductor very nearly tore my head off. I pointed out that MN allowed this practice and that I'd just assumed it was universal, and he said, "Well, look around you -- does it SAY Metro North? Huh?"
Now, I'm as willing to acknowledge bad job days as the next guy, but for a supposedly "customer-oriented" operation, the LIRR and many of its staff are lousy. Trying harder than before, I suspect, but still lousy -- and, significantly, more so than the MN.
That's another thing about the LIRR--
When Pataki introduced unlimited Metrocards, he made a big fuss about loaning it to your spouse-- your kid--. Maybe he thought that they wouldn't be able to avoid that sort of stuff anyway, so they decided to make it a virtue.
But on the LIRR all tickets (except full fare) are supposed to be for the signed user only (wasn't always that way). Some conductors don't bother to check this stuff, but others make it a hobby.
If a conductor sees a high-school or college-age kid riding with a commuter ticket on the weekend, he might challenge him for ID.
Tickets are punched "M" or "F". My wife was using my 10-trip (10 for the price of 9--off-peak only) once, and the conductor saw the "M" punch and asked her if it was her ticket (it wasn't signed). She said "yes" and he made a big display of circling the "M" and putting anX through it, and then repunched it "F".
That way he made sure I wouldn't use it again because another conductor couldn't help but notice--what a pr*ck.
I suppose I should be glad he didn't lift the ticket.
Agreed. I don't have my MN Ten-Trip with me here, but I'm not even sure they have the M/F punch any more. Usually the only thing the conductor checks is the final destination.
I had the same problem with Metro North, I just wanted a weekly card to Valhalla, on the Harlem Line, I had to go to a ATM after standing on line 20 minutes because they would not take my Visa, then wait another 15 minutes, and almost missed my train. Next train 1 hour, because it was Sunday
Both the LIRR and MN have pretty bad ticket-selling machines. The MVMs are much better, and more intuitive, with larger screens, bigger buttons and a more user-friendly (and, I bet, ADA-compliant) design.
I suppose it'd be too much to ask that a variation of the MVM be adapted to sell LIRR *and* MN tix? I know, I know ... totally different, would never work, etc.
Cubic would love to here this comment because they don't make the LIRR machines, but do make the MVM.
Mr t__:^)
Feel free to forward [grin] ....
It would be possible to use the same computers and software, just modify the peripherals, this would be the smart thing to do. When was the last time the LIRR did something smart?
got rid of their K 4s
No, that was actually one of their dumber moves... just think of all the tourists who would pay big bucks to ride.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What's a K4?
Steam locomotive, Pennsylvania RR design (PRR controlled the LIRR for a long time), 4-6-2 wheel arrangement (referred to as a Pacific type), Belpaire firebox (like almost all Pennsy engines), one of the best darn steam engines ever designed and built. It was the largest engine in passenger service on the LIRR. There were a lot of K4s on the LIRR, as well as a lot of G5 (4-6-0 Ten Wheeler) and E6 (4-4-2 Atlantic) engines. According to Ron Ziel's book The Pennsy Era on Long Island the LIRR also either rostered or borrowed H3, H6, and H10 Consolidations (2-8-0), D16 Americans (4-4-2), A3 switchers (0-4-0), B6 and B8 switchers (0-6-0), E3 and E7 Atlantics (4-4-2), K2 and K3 Pacifics (4-6-2), and L1 Mikados (2-8-2).
The LIRR also borrowed or rostered a number of electric and diesel locomotives of Pennsy heritage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
These ran until at least 55-56, Then Fairbank Morse 2000 series Hood Units took over . Great looking Locos, almost as pretty as the FA/PA 1s
I read somewhere that the MTA strictly prohibits ANY public comparisons between the performance of Metro North and the LIRR. I can imagine why -- as a rider of both, I suspect the LIRR would come off badly in most measures -- but am curious as to what SubTalkers know (and think) about this possibly apocryphal infobyte.
I suppose it might be true that the MTA doesn't *release* any public comparisons but it surely cannot prohibit public comparisons. What power do they have to suppress statements by commuter rights groups and the press? They're not Microsoft, after all.
-Dave
That was what I meant, if it didn't come across: internal prohibition. Once in a while the papers do a few comparisons, but I haven't seen anything by any of the PIRGs -- Straphangers or whoever -- doing a systematic comparison. Or, more importantly, suggesting ways that one RR could learn from the other.
Are car or engine orders at all combined? Obviously power differs, but I'd think much of the rest is the same. Bilevels for MN ever, for instance?
The MTA reports stats to US Dept. of Transportation who publishes "Transit Profiles", I have a 1993 copy. In it the LIRR & M-N are listed seperately ! If you know how to read the numbers you can tell who is doing a better job, e.g. Opns expense per car mile, etc.
Mr t__:^)
Are car or engine orders at all combined?
This would imply (gasp) COORDINATION BETWEEN 2 AGENCIES!!! Economies of scale! Tangible money savings!
I suppose after MTA hires a few consultants to study the problem for $500,000, they'd come to the same conclusion ....
--Mark
Uhhhh ... I take it that's a "no"?
Forgive a dumb question by somebody not from New York, but...
Why haven't Metro North and LIRR been consolidated into a single commuter rail agency by now, as with Metra here in Chicago?
Or is this, as I suspect, something that would just make too much sense? I've never ridden the LIRR myself, but from what I've read here, their general mentality sounds disturbingly like our own beloved CTA.
Even within the Metra system, there are different specifications of rolling stock per line (electric cantenary on the Illinois Central line vs. deisel on all other lines) and different contract carriers (Union Pacific, Burlington Northern, etc) operating different lines. And amazingly enough, Metra is considered one of the finest commuter rail systems in the country.
I've only ridden Metro North once, so I really can't comment on them.
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[Forgive a dumb question by somebody not from New York, but...
Why haven't Metro North and LIRR been consolidated into a single commuter rail agency by now, as with Metra here in Chicago?]
Union issues may be the main reason. LIRR unions generally have more favorable contracts than their Metro-North counterparts. Pay scales are similar, but LIRR working conditions are better. Supposedly, these differences go back decades, to the pre-MTA days, and to contracts negotiated by people who most likely are dead by now. I know, that sounds ridiculous, but combining the two RRs would ruffle union feathers and risk a politically _verboten_ strike.
One thing to keep in mind is that combining Metro-North and the LIRR wouldn't unify NYC commuter rail. You'd still have New Jersey Transit, which is run by the state DOT and is completely separate from the MTA. And then there's PATH, which is a unit of the Port Authority.
I'm not sure about "better working conditions," but personal experience and common opinion suggests that the LIRR Unions sure deliver worse performance. Perhaps the two are thought synonomus.
Its all about turf and dues. God, the LIRR has so many unions. Within the TA, isn't MABSTOA still separate because it is represented by different unions.
Also Metro North uses some NJ Lines and equipment, and on the New Haven Division, some of their rolling stock is owned by the State of Conn. You have 3 different states involved in Metro North
I thought the conventional wisdom was that the poor LIRR performance was due to inferior management. Are you suggesting that the "better" LIRR contract is the cause of the inferior service on the LIRR, that the railroad is being run for the benefit of its employees instead of its passengers?
(Are you suggesting that the LIRR is run for the benefit of its employees and not its passengers?)
That is the case with any public agency, or with any private company that does business with the government. In the private sector, if it isn't a good deal, you don't have to buy it. The customer rules. In the public sector, you are FORCED to buy it through taxes, and then find out what you get. Needless to say, the customer doesn't figure as prominently.
The only way the 2nd Avenue Subway gets built is if the construction companies, engineering companies and construction unions get more power to grab the money than the health care and social services industry. Once they have the money, maybe they'll deliver a subway, and maybe they won't. They didn't the last time.
Let me suggest that the reason why LIRR & MNRR are different agencies under the MTA umbrella is that the LIRR was already an established agency when Penn Central/Conrail spun off their passenger services in the late 70s and early 80s. For whatever the reason, the MTA decided not to create a "commuter rail division" (ala MTA New York Suburban Transit) but to create a separate agency to handle the transition. And it just stuck. If there were ever plans to consolidate the two, they're probably very dusty by now.
--Mark
I don't know what the MTA does/does not do officially in comparing LIRR and MNRR. They certain can't prohibit public discussion, but they can make providing useful information more difficult.
The general and possibly accurate perception is that MNRR is better managed than LIRR and that they care more about customer service. IMHO, the gap is not as large as it was, say, five years ago.
In LIRR's partial defense, I have to say that they have a larger and much more complicated road to run. Even employee trainin is tougher. Every three years (I think) operating personnel have to requalify for the FRA. On the MNRR, I've been told, you only need to qualify on the division you run on (Hudson, Harlem or New Haven). On LIRR you have to qualify on the whole road, and that's alot of road.
Well tommorrow would be a great day for Sub Fanning since service is normal weekday and I'm off from work.
Anyone up for some exploring??
Maybe even some of LIRR too or not I have no set plans but a waiting camera.
Some of us have to work, but hope you find a friend & have fun !
Mr t__:^)
Speaking of Veterans day exploring, I have already done mine. I rode some of PATCO, from 9th to Collingswood. I sat in a railfans seat on my way back, and noticed the fact that the operators cab (which is actually just a curtain) was open, so the operator was not sealed off from anything. Does this practice happen often? I saw the signalling (transmitted directly to the train), but I did not see a digital speedometer on the car.
PATCO is unique in that the operator is not sealed off from the riders. Some op's are more shy than others (and they pull the curtain way up to keep from seeing riders) but most are very affable and will chat with you.
The speedometer is a thermometer-type (same as most autos) but long and rectangular. It is just under the signal bars on the dash.
Strangely enough, when the K cars came onto the Broad St subway, there was concern about keeping cabs closed in all cab cars. The cabs can be made into full-width, same as WMATA cars, if they become operating positions. The concern seemed to be that the seat behind the smoked glass in the left side of the 'cab' area could not easily be viewed and could be a hangout area for criminals, etc. This was never a concern on PATCO, where the unused cabs are fully open, with only a cover over the controls. In a similar light, this was my favorite seat on ex-Red Arrow trolleys and Bullets (i.e. the rear-end operator's position).
Is this why they cannot keep the 2 seats to the left of the cab in the back end of the train in use?
It's more 'will not' than 'cannot'. I think this is just operator preference to keep the cab areas at both ends to themselves. At least that's most likely their story and they're sticking to it.
This may be no surprise to you, but to the workings of my mind this was a very pleasant surprise. I was biking past McDonald and Ave X yesterday, and again saw the Sperry Railcar sitting there with its orange light flashing and idling. This is the second time, and I wondered if it were coming alive just when I past, sort of recognizing a lover of Mack buses. There were two workers checking it out, looking like they were getting it ready for a run. As I passed the back of it, I noticed the doors to the back engine compartment were open, and I looked inside to see MACK DIESEL stamped on the engine. Why was that a surprise to me? I used to think that the Mack connection with the car was just the shell of a bus, which for some strange reason they put over the
car. Then about a month ago, there were posts here about the history of the car, and that registered a little bit. But somehow I didn't imagine that it was still powered by a Diesel Mack Bus engine. What a pleasant and humbling surprise. Contrary to my regular in person persona, I spoke to one of the workers through the gate and he confirmed what I saw. We just spoke for a minute, as I didn't want to bother them, but he was very nice and helpful. Thinking about it now, I can't visualize what kind of wheels it runs on. Another visit is due.
Is that car still in service? I think it must be elgible for Social Security by now?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, I saw it not long ago at Canarsie yard.
BTW, the railcar is named after the inventor of radar, Nicholas(?) Sperry. He lived in Brooklyn (was an Erasmus alumnni), but later moved his operations to Long Island where he started the Sperry Gyroscopic Co. The company incorported some of the earliest trans-Atlantic flights with the primitive cousin of satellite navigation.
Doug aka BMTman
I saw that thing a couple of years ago out in Bay Ridge under 4th ave, what a racket! At the time I thought is was a PCC car adapted for subway use. I just kept staring down the tracks and saying, nah...It couldn't be..... ;-)
Dave
A former SRS car runs at the Trolley Museum of NY.
Click here to see info on former SRS #105.
Even though the body is built by Mack and it has a diesel engine it is indeed a PCC car.
The prototype body and one production car had only a front door (muzzle loader) The 9 of the 10 car production order had center doors.
The engine is a 4 cycle 200 Hp. Mack Diesel. powering a 240 volt generator. The prototype car rode on B-2 PCC trucks with GE-1243 motors and could be coupled into 2 cars trains. (the same motors as Bostons 51 PCC order) The production cars had GSI trucks like clevelands rappid transit cars.
The prototype and two of the production cars entered service on the New Haven. The union wanted a three man crew to operate them so they all were sold.
What other cars srurvive?
Thanks Joe. This is going to take quite a while to absorb. After seeing the Mack Diesel engine yesterday, I was trying to figure out how they were connecting a drive shaft to the trucks. So it drives a generator which powers the motors on the trucks. Wow!! The connection between my imagination and reality is even less than I thought. I think in the posts last month or so, someone mentioned the fate of the other cars.
It has four electric motors, 2 per truck
The diesel electric system like a locomotive but more like they
hybrid buses that are in testing now.
So much for all the hype about hybrids being "new" technology.
Larry. I've seen the car frequently along McDonald around Ave. X. From the looks of it yesterday, I think it still goes out checking track. Unless they have rigged it up to find loose change that has fallen on the tracks. Maybe that's where the surplus in MTA funds has come from.
It's a tribute to Mack Bus, a company that started in Brooklyn New York in the late 1890's or so.
Sperry keeps these cars running forever. When the TA acquired this one from the NH it was shipped to Germany to have special equiptment installed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As long as the TA needs it, this old veteran will continue to run. By the way, is there anything that this car can do that the Track Geometry Cars can't? Hopefully this car will end up in a Museum for it's uniqueness. I know that the Danbury Railway Museum has their own Rail Bus waiting to be restored. I wonder how similar the two are...
-Stef
Stef, I would assume that the Sperry Car and the Geometry Car do the same or similar duties. I think they still hold onto the Sperry car simply because of the enormous size of the NYC system. (i.e., It's always good to have more than one of the same equipment to share the work).
Doug aka BMTman
What kind of equipment does the Sperry have on board? I rode TGC-II a few years ago under Lexington Avenue; it had a vast array of computer equipment (booted from FLOPPY at the time) to take all sorts of track measurements. Does the Sperry have this kind of stuff as well?
--Mark
I don't know, but I would suspect that their is alot of serious hardware on board.
It has some external AC units, so whatever's on board would certainly create some heat problems.
Doug aka BMTman
Tomorrow, November 11 is Veterans Day and Metro-North will hold a ceremony at Grand Central Terminal at 11AM to honor those who have served in the Armed Forces.
There will be a presentation of the colors, a few short speeches and finally a laying of a wreath at the Tomb of the Unknown Commuter. The whole thing takes about 20 minutes. Drop in if your in the area.
Larry,RedbirdR33
formerely Sgt,United States Air Force
My grandfather served as a Marine Corps aviator during both WWII and Korea, so me and my family will probably visit his grave on LI tomorrow (I'm off, yippee!). After seeing "Saving Private Ryan", I have a whole new understanding of the sacrifice the WWII generation made to save the world from tyranny.
I'm sure LIRR rolling stock has been discussed to death here, but I would like to see a brief list of various passenger car and engine designations (maybe with some short description/usage).The various designations are somewhat familiar but get confusing at times. Hope this isn't too old hat, but riding the LIRR everyday you see alot of equipment and it would be nice to know what you're looking at.
Why not first try http://www.pipeline.com/~robertwa/lirr.html
That site specializes in LIRR questions & probally has a page with the details you're interested in.
Mr t__:^)
Unfortunately, I don't yet have much information about LIRR rolling stock on my LIRR history website, and I'm not very knowledgable in that area. I'm sure there must be some other Subtalkers out there who can help.
By the way, the new address of the website is http://www.lirrhistory.com/
If you'd like to have LIRR rosters from various eras, I'd be happy to type them up and send them along.
Could you please send me rosters for the period of the M Cars,,from the 80s to the present.
Do you also have the same for the Metro North and NJT
Thank you
Steve Lowenthal
216 NOrth Fulton Av
FLeetwood NY 10552
at Present,,I have the following ,,
9001-9012 M 1 Budd 1968
9013 9174 M 1 Budd 1969
9175 9176 Retired
9175-9176 M1 GE 1972 2nd set
9177-9240 M1 Budd 1969
9241=9476 M1 Budd 1970
9477-9620 M1 Budd 1971
9621-9770 M1 GE 1972
9771-9944 M3 Budd 1985 -- 1986
9945 99946 M3 former 9809--9910
Why were 9175 - 9176 retired??? Were they the cars damaged on the lay-up track at Park Ave. in Huntington when a Shuttle hit the low-boy that teeter-totted on the hump in the road and caused a 4 day disruption in service about 10 years ago.. I have some pictures of the aftermath buried somewhere in the house.
I believe the even-numbered unit that had its end crushed at Huntington was #9332. It's back in service, may be wearing an end from some other car. I've seen 9330 thru 9339 all since then.
Wayne
Cars 9175 and 9176 were involved in a very bad fire very early in their life. They sat out their finals days before being scrapped on the olf Whitestone spur northeast of Shea Stadium.
Aren't 9945-9946 the former 9891-9892 involved in the Merillon Avenue shooting incident?
Wayne
11/11/99
YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT 9945-46 WAYNE.
Bill Newkirk
Having the good company of Doug aka BMTman ex-SubDude on my first post-rebuild visit of the Franklin Shuttle helped focus my attention on a few things, since there were some line details I wanted to share with him.
One is the approach and location of Bedford Station, the Brighton's steam-era terminal in the southeast quadrant of the structure and Atlantic Ave.
I was excited to see that (40+ years after my first viewing) the shape of the approach and terminal is still clearly delineated. Approaching from the south, you can see the building lines recede until you get to the terminal itself, which is now a junkyard (in my memory it was also an auto sales lot).
This means there's a high possibility that in the century since the terminal was torn down, no permanent structure much more substantial than a shack has been built on the right-of-way.
If they ever do build something there, I wonder if they could get an urban archeologist to look for historical traces. This is often done in old European cities where subways are under construction.
I wonder if the City still has title to the land and whether that is a reason nothing very permanent is there?
That's a good point, Paul. I would hazard a guess that the city still retains title to that property. I mean, Atlantic Ave. over there is prime industrial real estate and after all those years nothing's been done to the property aside from a couple of office trailers.
BTW, I thought I'd mention that Paul and I saw what looked like a portion of the roofing to the old Park Place station lying upside-down on the property of the junkyard. Looks to me like it is going to have a date with the scrapper's torch pretty soon. :-(
Doug aka BMTman
I am doing research towards a project and I would like to now that if I but a 900 Volt third rail between 125 and 42 street on the express tracks and there were no stops between what speed can be achived.
Thanks alot
I am doing research towards a project and I would like to now that if I but a 900 Volt third rail between 125 and 42 street on the express tracks and there were no stops between what speed can be achived.
I could be wrong, but I don't think you could run 600V equipment on a 900V third rail. Would you like your subway cars fried or over easy?
I like them over easy hold the electric fire. I am planning to make a car for a line that hold up to 1000 volts the car is known as the R-155 and then line it will rununder the second avenue line.
Why not run them on the Flushing Line after connecting the third rail to the Northeast corridor catenary at Sunnyside Yard. Those Redbird will be Red all right. If you really want trains to go faster, write your senator, congress persons and Governor that it isn't fair that the railroad passenger gets faster service than you do on the subway. Charge them with discrimination. Remember the 9 year old who charged the MTA with discrimination when the subway fare went up 9% but the railroads went up 3%? Why does a nine year old file a suit while people just sit back and complain when the TA just shoves the service where it belongs? Lets come up with some real ideas to convince the MTA that the subway riders should have 55 MPH trains again and try to make some real progress.
[Remember the 9 year old who charged the MTA with discrimination when
the subway fare went up 9% but the railroads went up 3%? Why does a nine
year old file a suit while people just sit back and complain when the TA
just shoves the service where it belongs?]
I don't know this story; is this real or a joke?
That story was run in the Daily News no more than one week before the fare went to $1.50. She had found a 40 year old clause in the City's Lawbooks and using simple math charged that the MTA raised the fare less for upstate geographical riders than the subway riders. Unfortunately she didn't last long due to the MTAs unlimited taxpayer funded resources of attorneys.
That story was run in the Daily News no more than one week before the fare went to $1.50. She had found a 40 year old clause in the City's Lawbooks and using simple math charged that the MTA raised the fare less for upstate geographical riders than the subway riders. Unfortunately she didn't last long due to the MTAs unlimited taxpayer funded resources of attorneys. If I remember the article correctly, Straphangers took her case to the State Supreme Court
If you are talking about the 8AV subway, then I thought that the express run is from 125 to 59th Streets. Not that that matters much.
Chris, you would not want to go much above 750 Volts with a
third rail. The higher the voltage, the more difficult it is
to keep it from grounding out. None of the current subway
fleet would be able to operate at 900 or 1000 volts...the
motors would blow. More importantly, the fact that the third
rail is at 650 volts is not at all a limiting factor in subway
cars' acceleration or top-end speed.
You don't need a 900-volt third rail - all you have to do is goose up an R38 (have someone remove or bypass the governors), remove the 81st Street GT and you probably could achieve 55MPH. Faster isn't safe as there are switches and 59th Street station to negotiate.
A souped-up R10 or Slant R40 could probably have made 60MPH.
Wayne
The R-10s and slant R-40s wouldn't need souping up to get to 60. Field shunting is all the souping up they would need.
That would be a classic drag race: a train of R-10s vs a train of slants.
I just had a terrible thought: what would have happened if the R-10s were still around and had their field shunting removed? That express dash up CPW wouldn't be quite the same.
Can you imagine the R-16s without field shunting? Everybody out and push!
11/11/99
Unfortunatly realistic speeds will never see the light of day. The TA is very derailment conscious these days. Those fatal derailments within the last 10 years have the TA seeing lawsuits,literally!
Bill Newkirk
PS - How about a souped up R-68. A speeding "hippo"?
We've obviously got a community going here. I almost feel like I know a lot of the folks here better than my neighbors.
But I've been wondering just how many folks look at or contribute to the board. Maybe you folks (regulars and lurkers alike) could check in by replying to this message with a name or handle (no emails if you want to remain anonymous).
Maybe if you're not one of the obvious names we see all the time, you could say you're "an occasional lurker" or a "regular watcher but rare poster" etc. Also maybe you could give an opinion about what you see here interests or doesn't interest you.
Paul
Here's one.
Many of the names who posted when I first came across the site (before you popped up) don't anymore, or at least not as frequently, but they may look in every not and then to see if the discussion is covering new ground. The transit labor relations discussion is recent -- I find it interesting.
I've learned a lot on the site, and the more you know, the less you can learn. I still pick up a new piece of info every now and then. Lots of stuff I've picked up here has ended up in City Planning memos.
What ever happened to the guy who had all his postings in the third person?
Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island says that The Rail Historian was shunned and eventually left.
Generally I'm pretty tolerant of *ahem* unusual behavior, but I THANKED GOD when he quit posting....
Count me in as a frequent poster and occasional flasher. I have used many aliases: 18th Ave Al, Son of Sam, the poor soul, and Abe Lincoln. I especially enjoy reading my own posts, but rarely have time to read what anyone else has to say. In fact, I'm not really sure what your question was.
heypaul, you ever thought about starting your own website devoted to your humorous repartee?
I think it'd be a BIG hit.
Doug aka BMTman (he's baaaacck!)
I thought you were going back to your old nickname??
I am a regular. I hit this site every night when I come home after work. I love it!
Chuck Greene (no handle, no alias, no nothing - just me.)
i check in a few times a day. the one and only faxman (i think)
This is the best site I have ever come across. It is addicting. I love to read the responses to my sayings. Often, I have been wrong and corrected by the very knowledgeable people out there and I have learned a lot.
The thing I like is that you can pose a particularly dumb or ignorent question, and nobody chastises you for it...
And we kan Make lots of spellin an grammar mistakes an get away wit it 2.
I like Chuck check through every night around midnight when I arrive home from work. I love this site and have learned a lot. Generally I do not read all the posts but pick through certain posters who know their stuff, like Steve, Jeff H, Transit Professional, Thurston amoung others.
I have had the pleasure of meeting some of you and know some of you from my visits to various trolley museums.
All transit buffs are truly a special group of people and are like a family or secret society. Being the curious investigative types its not unusual to find a buff who also has several other interests not related to transit or trains.
It reminds me of when I was on vacation in Puerto Rico and I met a very nice gentleman who was a railroad buff in San Juan Airport. Before you knew it we both talking about the same museums throughout Pennsylvania we visited and some of the same people we both were aquainted with even though he lived in Pittsburgh and I in New York.
In a similar vein,whenever I say Im from Middletown,theres almost always the: "Ah, home of the O&W..."and givess omething to talk about..
Im a fairly regular poster for nearly a year now. Before discovering this website I thought I was weird in my love for the subway system, something which is usually derided or ignored by everyone. I have also gained an immesurable amount of knowledge from this website as to subway history and operations.
Im a fairly regular poster for nearly a year now. Before discovering this website I thought I was weird in my love for the subway system, something which is usually derided or ignored by everyone
I felt the same way. I've loved the trains since I was a toddler. I was always afraid to admit it because I thought people would think I'm nuts. It was only in the early '70's that I discovered that there were a whole lot of nuts just like me that loved the subway. Another buff introduced me to the Electric Railroaders Association and the Fan Trips. When I got on the Internet, it didn't take me long to find this site. I never really got involved with SubTalk until last month. Now, I'm as addicted to SubTalk as I am the Internet.
You can imagine the comments I received when I told my friends I was going to spend a day in NYC riding subway trains.
Of course, when one of them is traveling to NYC and needs to get around sans automobile guess who they come and talk to?
Sorry, but I likes my trains.
I get even wackier looks when I tell people I take days off to hop on the subway and take videos.
But then when I tell them I've been to places like City Hall Loop, the lower level of City Hall (BMT) and the Essex St trolley terminal, then they start giving me ooohhs and aaahhhs and ask "gee, how can I do that" ....
--Mark
Mark: Its no worse than standing on the CNJ Broad Street Station in Newark at 10 o'clock on a Saturday night in an April long ago to catch the very last train out before the Aldene Plan took effect.
Or standing on Platform B at Coney Island a few minutes before midnight on a November evening to ride the first train through Chrystie Street.
Those were the good days.
Best Wishes, Larry,RedbirdR33
Agreed. I can see myself waiting to take the first train through 63rd St once the connection opens .... or over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge when that opens (cane and all :)
--Mark
I'd call myself an occasional poster. I tend to be most interested the subways and rails from a service perspective (who rides, where are they going, how could service be improved), but that doesn't mean you won't find me at the railfan window if it's available.
Originally, I posted as CTG, but now post as Charles G (in an attempt to avoid confusion with Chuck Greene) even though I go by Chuck to most of my friends.
Chuck aka Charles G aka CTG.
OK, I'll step up. I'm a long-time railfan (grew up partly in London, where it all started) and NYC resident for 18 years. More interested in trackage, ROWs, structures and routings than rolling stock, and equally interested in NYC subways and NYC regional commuter trains. Buses never did much for me.
Discovered SubTalk a few months ago, tend to post in flurries then lurk. Much easier now that I have Road Runner cable-modem in my apt. Have learned a huge amount, including how much I have left to learn. And am seriously thinking of buying that track book at the Museum ....
I'm a lurker and if something catches my eye then i'll respond, i was always riding subwats when i lived in N.Y. years, i dragged my friend Ernie who now works tor the N.Y.C.T.A. in the signal dept. the lucky stiff, i now live in Portland Ore,ride Max time to time but it's not the N.Y.system but it does the job, i haven't herd from any people who work for tri-met on this site,as there are intresting things happening here too.i have learned a lot here as well, and miss the subway and elevated trips,i still can hear the Q's entering and leaving Fresh pond station along with the old standards....geee i wish i were back,keep up the good work guys...and gals....i'll check in from time to time...WHAT TRACK BOOK ? how much ?
"Tracks of the NYC Subway" by peter J. Dougheraty, available from the TA Museum at about $25.00. Many times they have a give away if you buy $30, so ask. Try Sunday, ask for Stef (from this site) he's frequently there that day. (718-243-3060)
Mr t__:^)
Thanks,for the info.....
I've been a regular SubTalker since Summer 1996. I've always posted as myself Wayne Johnson. Since Dave launched BusTalk I spend most of my time there, but I stil check in at SubTalk. This is a great site and I'm greatful to Dave for putting it up (and tolerating the occasional nonsense), but overall it's definitely my favorite transit site. There has been a lot of new Sub/BusTalkers since 1996, but it's good to see that many of the regulars are stil here. Generally the discussions are good, however I don't like some of the sarcasm - especially when someone make a typo or happens to be wrong about something.
Wayne
Some of you I've met amd others I haven't, but as I said earlier this is by and large and very learned group of individuals and there is much good discussion. We do get the occassional wiseguy, but they don't seem to last long. As for the anger and sarcasm, especially about labor issues I think this we can do without,but compared to that Staten Island Website we're a bunch of pussycats. There are some awfully angry people on that island.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Is Staten Island really an island?
Yes, it's an island. Vastly separated from Manhattan and separated from Brooklyn by the Verrazano Bridge. It's much closer to NJ than NYC, actually.
I'm assuming New Yorkers view it the same way, too:)
Oh, I thought it was like Long Island.
Long Island is also an island.
At least the last time I looked.
I think he meant current Long Island??????
3TM
I guess. But Brooklyn and Queens are on Long Island. And it is still an island. It's "Lawn Gyland" that isn't an island.
An example of a one-time island that is in no way a separate island is Coney Island.
An example of something which we don't think of as an island but really is, is Orient Point, the easternmost part of the north fork of Long Island. The only thing which attaches it to the rest of Long Island is a narrow causeway which carries 25A. I think they may finally have poured enough rocks and concrete in it that it doesn't regularly wash out any more.
The South Fork is separated from the rest of LI by the Shinecock Canal. Brooklyn and Queens are part of ROYAL ISLAND!!!
And would actually BE a part of New Jersey, if it wasn't for a stupid boat race back in 16-something--believe it or not!?!
I hate to practice Stormyism, but that's all I ask
If my history is correct, I believe Staten Island was at one time New Jersey territory. I believe New York purchased S.I. from N.J. when the city started to run out of land-fill dump sites around the turn of the century. (Sorry, to disappoint any SubTalkers from Richmond County, but the first priority for the island was not for residential development).
Doug aka BMTman
Your history is WAAAAAYYYY off.
-Hank
Staten Island has always been part of New York. In fact New Jersey was part of New York in the 17 and early 18th Centuries. The split into seperate colonies in the 1 or 2nd decade of the 1700s. The people on Staten island who were mostly Dutch, decided to stay with NY rather the NJ who were almost 100 pct English
Doug--- Your suggestion about Staten Island's raison d'etre actually confirmed my own feelings about the county of Richmond. I just was looking through some guidebooks to the city to check on your assertion. Staten Island's history is really interesting. There were Indians on the island in the 1600's, the Unamis, Raritans, and Hackensacks. Dutch attempts to colonize were wiped out 3 times by the Indians. In the 1660's when the English took it over, there was a dispute between New York and New Jersey over ownership.
In the late 1880's some of the marshlands were a breeding ground for mosquitoes and for a while malaria was a problem.
And perhaps the most interesting thing to me was in the AIA guidebook to NYC. The Outerbridge Crossing was named after Eugenius Outerbridge who was the first Chairman of the Port Authority. Any connection to our Eugenius, a man of more aliases than me. I've required a whole chapter in my guidebook to Subtalk for our man of mystery Eugenius.
Actually,if we all watch the mini-series on NYC on channel 13 this week (PBS),the Truth MIGHT come out...
They are showing the same thing here in Hawaii, which is unusual because we usually get PBS a couple months later then NY. I am going to tape the whole program
All of New Jersey was part of the original colonial grant to the Duke of York; he either gave N. J. or sold it off to some cronies of his soon after, and they set it up as a separate colony. There were a number of contestations of the boundary between the two colonies afterwards, in the Caskills as well as around Staten Island. There's a charming story about ownership of the island being settled by a yacht race around it between teams from the two colonies.
Either Connecticut or the old New Haven colony (I forget which) had a claim on the east end of Long Island in the early days, too. The NY-CT border is the result of a negotiated swap between the colonies; it used to run in a straight line from about Westport to Poughkeepsie, but New York gave Conn. the Greeenwich-Stamford panhandle along the Sound in return for the land upstate in the Hudson Valley.
I visit Subtalk on weekdays more often because of only one phone line at home and it is used more for voice by another certain party.
I usually check in almost every day. I used to have that problem with the phone, then we sprung for another line. (Teen Age Girl leaves, wife yaks on phone for hours.)Subtalk is a wonderful virtual community, much like a real life one. Come in, conduct yourself the way we all are supposed to, and you will be welcomed. Have a question?? Post a serious question and somebody who stops here will have the answer.
Dan, the landlord turn down the request for 2nd line. Seems this 65 yr old apartment bldg the only way to run a 2nd line is outside on the face of the bldg. Landlord won't allow it. I have call fowarding to a cell phone when I'm on but still doesn't allow smooth sailing the internet.
Wife just bought the Bell Atlantic answering service, as a result of internet use. Add $8.00 per month to the cost of surfing the net.
Larry --
If you already have a cell phone with a good free evening and weekend plan, you may find it cheaper and more convenient to get their call forwarding system and then forward your home phone to the cell phone when you're online.
It works better for me than having people leave a bunch of messages while I'm online.
Chuck
Sorry,
I guess if I'd read the post before yours I'd have realized that had already been suggested.
Chuck
can you get a cable modem or try a dsl service
I would seriously check to see if that is legal for him to do that..seems to me that he doesn't have the right to deny you any kind of phone hook up you might need.....check with Bell Atlantic on that...
Although I don't post to Subtalk that often, I read ALL the messages every day, both at home and from work. I have also been on three of the Subtalk field trips (Farewell to the Willy B, Newark Subway, and Brooklyn Waterfront) - which I highly recommend to everyone. It has been great to meet people with the same interests as I.
This forum has brought me many hours of enjoyment, plus I have learned so much from it.
I've only posted a couple of times. I live all the way down in Atlanta, GA, so I'm not as knowledgable about subways as many others here. I check out SubTalk nearly everyday. I've loved subways since I first rode them. I've rode subways in many different cities (New York and Boston I especially like). Here in Atlanta, MARTA has some of the nicest looking stations I've seen. I'm mostly interested in the route and track maps of subways in different cities. This is one of the best subway sites on the web.
It's interesting to note how many regluars come from far away.
I have the fortune of being not a world away from NYC or even an old subway system(Philadelphia and it's ratty but loveable El, subway and SS trolleys).
I'd very much like to ride the systems of Chicago, Atlanta and London, especially. I've always make it a point to ride the metro system of any city I visit. I've done the DC Metro(the cleanest and nicest) and the Boston T(best light rail) as well as New York's(just the best).
Chicago's a real blast with all the L running.
--Mark
I rode on the DC subway. Last April, I got to ride on MARTA. DC subway was nice. MARTA was cool going into Downtown Atlanta but coming back was a different story...............
3TM
I've read SubTalk since, oh, about late spring 1997. I was turned on to it by my friend's dad Jack(who also used to be a regular poster here) and posted when I felt it was OK, but didn't start regular posting until earlier this year.
SubTalk as become one of my daily routines, as second nature to me as brushing my teeth. I respond when I feel I have something relevant to contribute. I, too, feel like i know some of you. Your names are very familiar(BTW, BMTman-glad you went back to your old self).
I think most of us have a sense of community here and a general respect for everyone, especially regulars. I consider you friends.
Let's see...I've been here for about 2 years, which, coincidentally, is about how long I've worked for Transit. I staarted as a C/R in the IRT, switched to the BMT this past May, and am now back in the IRT as a T/O, due to come out to the road right before Christmas. I managed to make one field trip - the Brooklyn Waterfront - only because I was in school at the time (which comes with weekends off). I check in when I can - the hours can be really strange here, and the family just doesn't seem to understand this peculiar obsession.
We're our own club, everyone else is on another track:)
Subway Steve's Homepage
Which also brings up the question of: How many of us are transit "professionals" of one stripe or another? We all know Mr Rosa, of course,is;not to mention all of the recent labor posters...it would be interesting to know...
I've been reading and posting for a bit over a year now. I don't claim to know a lot about the subway (I have more knowledge of trolley cars and interurbans) but I enjoy going into New York, riding the subway and watching the people, touring closed and never-opened areas when possible, and observing all the different things about urban rail transit. I still don't know the differences between one subway car and another (OK, I can tell the difference between a redbird, a slant, and anything else, but that's about it) but I enjoy reading others' discussions of the merits of one design over another, even though I don't usually have the slightest idea what they're talking about. I try and contribute when I can, regardless of whether it is strictly on-topic or not, but I do appreciate it when we stick to transit or closely-related and/or interwoven topics. A few of you I've met (a couple of you I've known for a lot longer than this board has existed), a number more of you I've corresponded with offline, and all of you I consider my friends.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been here almost a year and try to read the at least some of the "posts" every day. I considered myself an "el" fan with a particular fondness for the old open platform gate cars. I've met some great people through this site, and many have helped me find information about my gate cars. I have learned a lot about what has taken place on the subways and els in the forty years since I have left the city.
You certainly can count me as a regular. I check SubTalk at least a couple of times every day, and try to read as many messages as possible - which unfortunately means that I usually can't read everything, or should I say *fortunately* because it means SubTalk is really hopping :-)
As fas as what interests and doesn't interest me is concerned, my main interest is the relationship that exists between transit and economic development. I also enjoy discussing the political aspects of transit. On the other hand, some of the historical stuff doesn't thrill me much; I very seldom rode the subway before 1994, so I don't have much perspective in that regard.
An interesting note - one thing that strikes me as bit strange is the lack of overlap between SubTalk and nyc.transit. Not to brag or anything, but I'm one of the relatively few people that's a regular in both forums.
I dont contribute too much but usually check the board at least once a day, I am in Fl now stationed away from Ny so the board keeps me informed as to what is going on with the MTA and even Shoreline (of which I am a member and wish I had more time to get involved). The L in my handle is Loitsch
I guess you might say I'm as much of a regular here as #4402-3 is on the Canarsie Line. We see those shovelnoses ALL the time out there and now I've ridden it ten times since '97.
Wayne L Whitehorne /MrSlantR40\
I live in Chicago, so while I can't always relate to the material discussed in Subtalk, I read it very frequently to learn as much as I can about New York (which I LOVE to visit!)
I occasionally post in the Chicago threads, but there's not much I can say that hasn't been repeated dozens of times already by others here.
Weighing in....
I just recently became active here, although I had spent some time reading the board several months ago without posting (at least, not much).
I read and post here because I'm interested in public transit in general, and because I think New York, which tends to take up most of the space here, is a great city with a fascinating transit system. I also enjoy the occasional posts about other cities, such as Washington (where I used to live), Philadelphia and Chicago.
That's about it, I guess.
-- Tim
I skim through the posts most days, comparisons between the UK and US are always fascinating. Who knows, perhaps one day I will get round to crossing the Atlantic and seeing everything first hand.
Beg, steal, or borrow the money its well worth it.
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon
My problem is that I really really hate going near aircraft, ships are not that expensive all things considered, but I don't have a month to spare at the moment.
Max
I find Subtalk for the most part informative and interesting.I peek in at least once a day.
I'm here, too, but I haven't had a lot to say lately.
Well, I guees it's my turn to list myself. As are Fernando, Alex, Steve, Erick, Andy, Peter, Subway-Buff and others. I'm an employee of the system though I don't work for the TA or even the MTA. I too enjoy post from out-of-towners both those who have never been here and those who miss this part of NYC life (incl. newcommer Tim, Rob, Steve & Steve, Jeorge, Max, Henry and others).
We seem to have about four type of buffs: debaters (incl. Larry & Peter); technacrats (they have to know & understand every detail); Just for funers (that's me); reminiscors (they remember the good old days and are willing to educate us youngsters). It makes for a very diverse group that NEVER gets boreing !
About a year ago I knew very little ... the story I like to repeat is that before June I didn't have any idea what a Lo-V or Hi-V was, then there I was driving them at Shoreline/Branford.
I have a file cabinet full of printouts off this site. That's how I know what the name of the tunnels are, which "R" wares a "D" or a "1",
I bought Peter Dougherty's track map because that's one subject that has always intrigued me (where do all those tracks go). I have several calendars & probally will subscribe to Railpace. This Spring it looks like Doug & I will join Stef as new trolley operators at Shoreline/Branford.
I also learn stuff for the job and it has gotten me some respect from colleagues at the company as well as the TA, DOT, and Cubic. I'm lucky to have a boss who's willing to indulge me when I'm the only attendee to a meeting in Mahattan that went by public transit.
I think I'm going through a metamorphosis changing from a fun seeker to a buff. I told my wife that I was going for a walk in Brooklyn Sunday with the BRT Subdude (excuse me he's not THAT old, he's the BMT man) ... anyhow she said "are you going to do that EVERY weekend now ? ... I said no (kind of sheepishly).
Mr (small) t__:^)
BTW, why "t", well I work for T-ransit system, but not the TA, so I'm a SMALL part of it and I'm Thurston, but NOT small at 6' 6"
I've been hanging out on SubTalk since Dave started it up (thanks AGAIN Dave!). You can see my pic on the About... page.
I've been a subway fan since my father took me for rides on the system as a kid too small to see up to the railfan window (which was long before the Slant-40's lower window!). I moved to Boston to go to college, and still live and work here. But for the last 21 years, I've commuted back to NYC about one weekend per month to work as a weekend meteorologist on WCBS Newsradio-88 (where I bring you Transit and Weather Together).
I volunteer as an Instructor at the Seashore Trolley Museum, so I get to run cars such as the Third Avenue Railway 631 trolley, NYCTA R-4/R-7a 800/1440 (our "A Train") and Hi-V Gibbs car 3352. I also belong to Shoreline (Branford) and ERA.
I also have a background in the bus industry, having been safety director for Pierce Coach Line in Roslyn during my college-years summers. I still have my Class B/P CDL, and get behind the wheel of our buses at Seashore, at Pierce, and anywhere else I can.
On SubTalk, I've contributed depth measurements for the Line-by-Line section; the Montreal and X-2000 pages, and the soon-to-be-posted Bangkok page. I also organized the first SubTalk FieldTrip (Willy-B), where it was great to meet my fellow SubTalkers!
Gee, I guess I'm an "old timer" when it comes to SubTalk. Though many of you post much more often than I do, I guess I go back to SubTalk's "day one". In fact, I met Dave P. back in 1995 on a "Day One on the IRT" tour; we went on a tour of our own after that and he was giving out homemade "business" cards identifying the site (then known as subway.k2nesoft.com, I believe). I had heard of the site a few months beforehand but it was nice to meet the webmaster in person.
Anyway, I got real involved with the historical stuff over the past 2 years; I really like that. I like info about the rolling stock, too, but not to the depth of knowing what sound pitch air brakes on an R-9 make or the intracacies of all the components that comprise a car. I usually stay out of the political hot potatos (recent postings on a potential strike and being unable to get a cab, for example), but I really enjoyed all those posts regarding "old bakeries/cakes/restaurants/other New York".
There's plenty of variety here, so I try to read everything (it's getting harder now that SubTalk has had a faster server) but clearly it's real hard to do. I frequent the board around lunchtime weekdays and occasionally some evenings, too.
--Mark
I guess its my turn. As a teen in the 60's I was definitely a transit buff. A usual day trip for me from my home in East Meadow would include 2 buses to Jamaica- A Mack on the Hempstead Bus Comp and an old Ralph Kramden GMC on the Bee line to Jamaica The Jamaica Line from 168St to Bway Junction BMT Standards on the LL, Franklyn and Culver Shuttles "Q" cars on the Myrtle Low V's on the Bronx 3rd Av a bunch of R1-9's diesel to Westbury and a long walk back to E.Meadow. Then I discovered Girls, cars, Harleys, work, etc and I stopped taking trains except out of necessity. I think if they kept the pre-war cars I wouldn't have quit though.
The birth of my son Arthur in '96 gave me the excuse to relive my childhood. He's 3 now. As a cop I can ride the LIRR & Subways free so me and Arthur spend whole days riding trains nowhere in particular. Although I just started reading and posting in SubTalk in July I often went to nycsubway.org since I got on the net with WebTV in '98. Now I always try to catch up, reading everything since my last visit. I like the fact there is very little flaming or insulting. The posters are definitely much better educated than the rest of the net as the spelling & grammer is MUCH better than in Chat Rooms!!! I very rarely go to news:nyc.transit but I do sometimes go to the NY railfan forum in railroad.net. To conclude:
Thank You, Dave
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
my OUTRAGEOUS COLOR QUIZ
I've been a regular poster for almost two years, and the NYC subway system has been a part of my life since 1965. I have learned an awful lot on this website from our resident experts and what I like to call subway veterans. Reminiscing is one of my favorite pastimes.
What I really like is the diversity on this bulletin board. Each of us has a fondness for a certain line or equipment, whether it's the A or Sea Beach, slant R-40s or Triplexes, gate cars or R-10s.
A few weeks ago, I had the privelege of meeting four other regular Subtalkers, which was most enjoyable. Same time next year, OK?
Hi, I guess you would call me a lurker. I read many posts, but add few of my own. I was much more of an active railfan about 30 years ago when I rode the A train from Lefferts Blvd. to Lafayette St. to school every day.I have posted some messages in the past about subway riding records (I held the record for the fastest ride through the whole system back in 1967). I still find the subway/railroads interesting, mostly the equipment and how it works. Unfortunatly I don't have enough knowledge to add much, but love learning more, so I will continue to 'LURK'. Thanks to all you very knowledable subtalkers for all the cool and informative 'stuff'.
I'm still in here, but I have shied away because I can't keep up anymore (just look at how big this one thread is after one day!It could easily take a few hours each day just for this one board) And with this relatively slow computer, (166 Mhz; 16MB RAM) I can't neglect the wifey, other responsibilities and rest, so I just take a peek and respond if I see something really interesting.
Just upgrade your modum, that will do the trick.
Just upgrade your modum, that will do the trick.
The RAM and the processor speed also have a lot to do with it. Computers are very reasonably priced these days. Go for a new machine. It doesn't have to be state of the art. A 400 MHz machine with 64 MB RAM will do.
Funny, my wife and I were just discussing today what we should do about the computer. (Just installed Real Player 7, but had to take a lesser version (without the new Jukebox) because it required 200Mhz. Problem is, we just installed a new 10GB hard drive after the old 1.7 was wiped out by CIH last spring. We had been planning to upgrade the RAM (and one of you said that the modem can be upgraded? Can the processor be upgraded also?), but I guess it would be better to buy new than to keep opening up this one and tinkering inside. Just hope someone will buy this new 10G hard drive.
Thanks anyway for the advice.
You can probably obtain a housing for the drive and attach it to your new machine as a second drive. I've got a pair of 12GB drives inside the docking station for my Toshiba at work, as well as the 4GB drive in the notebook itself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can also install the drive INSIDE the new computer. The computer's built in EIDE interface supports for four Floppy/CD-ROM drives.
Depends on the beast - there may not be enough physical space in the cabinet.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The processor can be upgraded as long as the motherboard is the same. If it's a P-II (which it quite obviously isn't), then you can get any P-II or III. I don't know what's up with the standard Pentium, with the Socket 7 and the Socket 5.
My advice would be to get a new computer and put the 10 Gig HD in the new computer as a slave drive D. Computers are very reasonable these days, but upgrades may not be. RAM is very expensive these days. I paid $185 for a 128 MB SDRAM board a year ago. Then the price dropped. In June, the same board was going for $90. In August, it shot up to $300. They still are about $250-$280. My advice to you would be to get a new machine. You could use the old monitor and like I said, use the 10 Gig HD as a slave D-Drive in your machine. This will not only give you a lot of extra HD space, but you won't even have to transfer your data. It will already be there on the new machine. You will just have to reinstall all your pet software that's not on the new machine. If you want to save money on a Pentium II, get an AMD K-6-2 instead. They're cheaper and perform as well or better. Whatever you do, don't get a Gateway. If you ever have problems, you'll find yourself behind the 8-ball with their warranty. They absolutely will not replace a defective machine. They won't come out on site either. Their tech support will order a new part for you, and when you receive it, they will then walk you through any installation or troubleshooting over the phone. Their favorite fix for most hardware/software conflicts is to have you back up your data, format your hard drive, then reinstall the operating system and all software. I never have problems with warrantys, upgrades or blooming idiots that call themselves "technical support". I'm a tech. I build and upgrade my own machines, and troubleshoot all my own computer problems. All a computer is, is a case, motherboard, processor, floppy drive, CD drive, Hard drive, RAM, sound card, video card, modem, speakers, (and in my case, SCSI card). Then add a monitor, keyboard and mouse. Install Windows 98, configure the mess to work, add your favorite software, a printer and a scanner, and viola! You have a computer. Last January, I built an AMD K-6-2 350 MHz machine with 128 MB RAM, Diamond Speedstar A50 8MB video card, Creative Soundblaster 128 sound card, US Robotics 56K Winmodem, 36X Memorex CD drive, Western Digital 10GB Hard drive, and Adaptec SCSI card. I need another Hard Drive. I'll probably get a Western Digital 20 GB drive. I'm toying with the idea of replacing the processor with an AMD K-6-3 450 MHz (equivelant to a Pentium III) and another 128 MB RAM to bring it to 256. I only have a 15" monitor. A 17" would be nice.
Or you could get a Mac :-)
(Posted from my G3/350MHz with all the goodies.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or you could get a Mac :-)
Yuck! Why would anyone want a Mac when there are plenty of "real" computers out there. Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease!
Buy a generic. Just as good. Brian
The sign man on SubTalk, 15 BEECHHURST on BusTalk. I think a cocktail party at the Transit Museum when it re-opens would be very appropriate.
"Getting to know you, getting to know all about you..."
Maybe if its catered by Nathans.....
I've been comming to NYCSubway.org for the last 2 years or so, but I only noticed SubTalk like 2 months ago. I'm more of a railfan and spend most of my time drooling over all things PRR (or Reading as the case may be). Frequent trips on South Jersey's PATCO got me interested in transit and I have been on several transit junkits although most of them involve commuter rail (3 people, Trenton to Port Jervis round trip. Purpose: to eat at the Port Jervis Burger King. Cost: over $100 and a day of travel. Outcome: Well worth it!) Because I am now attending college in Connecticut and because I don't know much about the NYC transit system I've been hanging here to learn more as my trips home will require passage through NYC. Despite the fact I frequently have no clue about what you're all talking about (I now just skip any message with an 'R' in it) there's enough stuff about NYC in general, the LIRR and some funny subway stories to keep me comming here at least twice daily.
I'm a sporadic poster to SubTalk but try to read it at least once a day. I'm more of an intercity/commuter rail person, but learning about just about anything on rails that primarily carries people (vs. freight) excites me.
I've only lived in NYC proper for the last year and a half or so, but I grew up in a nearly transit-less (and completely rail-less) suburb of NYC-- I'm only 23 now, so this wasn't all that long ago. As a kid I spent many a weekend staring at NYC subway maps and rail and bus timetables. Now, well, I spend many a weekend poring over Tracks of the New York City Subway, reading this website, and exploring the subway.
Though I ride 3-4 days a week, mostly interested in older eq. and related tech info.
Well Paul you got quite a responce here ... by my count almost 50 folks checked in.
==============================
Which local regulars haven't we heard from:
- Steve at the 207th Shop; Jeff H; Steve K; Andy S; Allen; Ed Sacks; Subway-Buff; Stef; SI Hank; Bill from Maspeth; Adam; Sid from NJ; Mark W, Marc R; Bill Newkirk ... just a few that come to mind
===============================
Out-of-Towners: The Chicago three "J"s; Bob W from Philly; Rob from London; Mr. Train Control from down south; Philip from Hartford
====================
That'll add at least another 20, so about 70-80 regulars of which I've met almost 30 incl. our host Dave.
Mr t__:^)
Here I am, finally signing on. I only have a computer at work, so I fall behind on the board developments on weekends, holidays (such as yesterday) and vacations. The pay may stink for us civil servants, but the five weeks I get a year, plus carryover, kind of makes up for it.
I discovered this site back when I got the 'Net in December 1998. I think if I had the Internet at home, I'd never get ANY sleep what with all the transit-related, highway-related and cartoon-related sites I surf. Besides, my wife and I both have elderly parents and don't want to tie up the phone line.
Yes, it is nice to discover there are so many fellow eccentrics- I mean, transit buffs. I've been fascinated with the subways ever since we moved to Queens when I was three. At age ten-and-a-half, I finally received consent to use them myself, probably so I wouldn't have to drag a parent or brother to Coney Island, Rockaway or the far reaches of the Bronx all the way from Flushing.
I post sporadically, mostly when I have a good anecdote from the previous weekend, or when I have a question about transit in an area remote from New York, secure in the knowledge that a fellow Subtalker will have the answer. The reminiscenses by those older than me (I'm 40) are always enjoyable, as are the observations concerning the merits of different cars, lines, stations, etc. I'm always impressed at how, as soon as a transit-related item appears in the newspaper, people weigh in on the site with their takes on it. I try NOT to use the board as a bitch session, but sometimes human nature intervenes.
The rest of my family really couldn't care less about transit, with the possible exception of my four-year-old son (who has not yet discovered Pokemon), who's always bugging me every day to go on a train. His observations and questions on the different things we experience make me view the subway system in a new light. Sometimes it's hard to resist being cynical, such as yesterday when he asked me why the downtown '1' we were on was sitting in Chambers Street for about ten minutes, connecting with THREE expresses. I usually have two stock answers to this one: "Because they want to annoy us", or "Because I'm not trying to make a connection here."
I have printed pics of the 3rd Avenue el, the Standards and the Lo-volts for my Bronx-bred parents, who remember them well. Thanks to the picture gallery, I made some amazing discoveries: R-10s and 16s on the 'B'; 42s on the 'CC'; R-36WF cars on the mainlines with original paint scheme intact. These are usually from the late sixties/early seventies, before I began travelling the system extensively.
It's also interesting to read posts from other cities. I've explored the systems in Philadelphia, Boston, Toronto and the Bay Area before I was married. Now with a young child, our travel options may be limited for a few years, and riding subways is not my wife's idea of a vacation activity. On our honeymoon in L.A., I kept wanting to sneak off and steal a ride on the then-new rail system. We tried to ride the Airtrain (?) in Vancouver, but all the neighborhoods around the stations required RESIDENT PERMIT PARKING! Talk about frustration!
So when's the next fantrip? With the onset of winter, it may be difficult to do any extensive outdoor exploring, but it's always fun to meet up with everyone else. Admit it- we're starting to look familiar to each other.
Didn't realize how long this was going to be. You'd never know my boss is out today.
Howard,
You say you only have a computer at work. Well just so you know, you can get the whole internet and do almost anything you can do with a computer with WebTV for just $150 plus about $20 per month. I made all my many Web Pages with it. And no, I have No financial interest, just trying to help a fellow SubTalker.
I post rarely but read often
I'm farely new i just started posting last year. took a short vaction but i'm back.
I stop by from time to time.
A little late,but here I is......
I'm a regular viewer, but only an occasional contributor.
I've noticed a deterioration in the last month or two. I ride a variety of lines (2/3 to 4/5; F to A/C; R/M) at a variety of times, so its an overall impression. Trains are slower and more crowded, and one is more likely to be hung up. Crowding and delays have suddenly added about five minutes to my commute.
1) Is this a function of the labor dispute.
2) Is the equipment planned for replacement deteriorating, or
3) Has soaring ridership just driven the system to hit the wall?
Or how about the Sept-Dec crush of students returning to school, tourists, holiday day-trippers and so forth? I tend to think of December as the worst subway month: bad weather + lots of day trippers. That may be Manhattan-centric, however. Wonder what the system's overall month-to-month ridership stats are -- are there statistically significant variations or not?
Hello,
My wife and I were planning to go to NYC soon, and wanted to know whether NYPD has any security at the stations during daytime non-peak hours.
Specifically, we needed to know how safe was it to travel on the A, E, N, R, and/or 7 lines between 9 am-4 pm on weekdays. Being "street smart" goes without saying.
Thanks in advance for your reply...
Just don t act like a tourist, and you will be ok
I have to admit, I acted a bit more protective and cautious than I like to be.
Especially in the aspect of not taking pictures in stations where I didn't think it to be all too wise.
Most people on the subway are interested in getting to their destinations, and the most you can expect from 99% of people you'll encounter there are strange looks or the occasional "Why are you doing that?"
If you look like you know where you're going and don't display any valuables like a camera or jewelry, you'll be more than fine.
Crime is down on the subways so you should be fine, although the A line goes through some rotten areas in Brooklyn and upper Manhattan. All of the other lines are fine.
Depends on where and when. While I'm no fan of the A in upper Manhattan either, the 3 in Brooklyn and the 2/5 around Grand Concourse are the ones that make me the most nervous. But really, as Rob said, look and act like you know where you're going and no one (except the panhandlers) will bother you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ride the A regularly to the Fort Tryon/Inwood area. I have never seen any problems on the A. The conductor's car is usually crowded at all times (up to midnight), and the other riders to the area are generally well dressed.
Have there been any incidents on the A in upper Manhattan? Or are you reacting to common (mis)perceptions about the neighborhood?
From 7:30pm until 4am, the NYPD Transit Manhattan Task Force Patrols the trains all over the boro. They are in uniform and plain cloths. The primary NYPD station that patrols all the stations north of W 96st is Transit District 3. Crime is on a low in upper Manhattan compared to the last 5 years.
I've never had any real problems anywhere, but I divide my time between North Carolina and New Jersey so I don't spend that much time in the City. I was in Upper Manhattan last month, on a Saturday afternoon, walking with my daughter from the Columbia campus down the hill and across to the C at 116th. Not thrilled with the area, with the pass some old drunk made at her, nor with the young dudes on the station platform - none were a danger per se but they all contributed to a general unease.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here we go again with the 3 in Brooklyn................
3TM
A message thread elsewhere on this site mentions 12/13/1999 as a delivery date of one of the batches of the R-142s.
Has anyone released a picture of the production units yet, while being built at the factory? I know drawings from Bombardier exist, but a picture of the real thing would be nice...
There are some images of the R142 at the bombardier website.
transportation.bombardier.com
They are listed in the "Urban Transit" section.
Urban Vehicles
They look sharp. Hope they're maintained so that they look good for a long time and the graffiti/scratchiti artists don't have any sucess.
A message thread elsewhere on this site mentions 12/13/1999 as a delivery date of one of the batches of the R-142s.
Has anyone released a picture of the production units yet, while being built at the factory? I know drawings from Bombardier exist, but a picture of the real thing would be nice...
Follow this link:
http://www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/A1A.htm
Try this one
http://transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/F1_Fb.htm
Try this one
http://transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/F1_Fb.htm
Very nice!
I just figured out today that if the unit numbers were 2500-2925 it is an even amount. Since 2500 is car 1 and 2501 was car 2 all the unit numbers were backed up! Well if you already knew tell me so I can kick myself for not seeing this earlier.
BTW, Starting with R62 and R68A the unit numbers ended in "1" to avoid confusion.
Forget it... I thought that 2925 was last. It was 2924 that was last. Bashing welcomed!
I hear that all service on the N and R is suspended due to a water main break. I don't know where they are turning trains or sending R trains down 6th Ave?
per News Broadcasts
Steve
FDNY
N: suspended from 34 to Whitehall. R is running on D from Dekalb to West 4th and F from West4th to 71-Continental.
While not specified I imagine there is alternate N service in Brooklyn-Maybe COney island to Whitehall
when I used the N/R at City Hall at about 8:30 pm, all was back to normal.
subfan
When I used the N/R at City Hall at about 8:30 pm, all was back to normal.
subfan
There was a water-main break in Broadway at Worth Street, 12-inch main. The N/R service was not out long.
There was also a stabbing on the "D" train at Grand Street and eight people had to go to hospital.
Wayne
Oooooooohhhhhh Nooooooooo! Not Again!
N Broadway Line
At around 4 I got on a D at Coney Island and saw a Q at West 8 Street waiting for a signal to clear. I got to Brighton Beach and I was leaving. I was walking downstairs and smelled a fire. I came back up and look around to see a building was on fire. I look around and see the southbound local track having a small fire. I crossed under to investigate. The cleaners just saw it and started to put water on it. Unfortunately it was a elevated so all the water went through and fell on the street. Some guy was cursing cause he got wet.
The fire was put out and the Q returned to service.
I heard a maniac with a machete started attacking the customers on a D Train near Grand Street this afternoon. Any details?
He could have been a disgruntled employee who's budget didn't allow for a semi-automatic weapon. Or a critic of mass transit policies. Anything is possible these days.
Doug aka BMTman
I was tutoring a couple of high school students. It could have been some disgruntled customer who watched the November edition of Transit Transit.
If I remember correctly, last December's Transit Transit had people from all the departments singing holiday songs. I wonder if we as an unofficial site for transit news , could put together a glee club of our glorious mosaic of Thugs, neurotics, good hearted people, techies, Entenmann eaters, 3 Stooges Watchers, tracers of lost els, to maybe do a brief spot on this December's show. Or better yet have a whip cream pie fight with the producers of the program.
I'll bake the pies:-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I ll do it if someone pays my fare to NYC from Hawaii, and I think Sea Beach Fred would too from LA
I'll do it if somebody will pay my ticket from Stockholm.
-- Tim
>>>If I remember correctly, last December's Transit Transit had people from all the departments singing
holiday songs. I wonder if we as an unofficial site for transit news , could put together a glee club of our
glorious mosaic of Thugs, neurotics, good hearted people, techies, Entenmann eaters, 3 Stooges
Watchers, tracers of lost els, to maybe do a brief spot on this December's show. Or better yet have a whip
cream pie fight with the producers of the program. <<<
The world is not ready to see us on television. Humanity needs to evolve or devolve from its present state in order to handle the sight.
11/11/99
heypaul,
You may be right! That November installment of Transit Transit with the a real bus driver assisting in icing up a cake to resemble a bus was really lame. Maybe that portion should have been named "Cooking with Chef Bellevue" !! That bus driver even looked embarrased !
Bill Newkirk
According to WCBS-AM, it happened on a northbound D train as it crossed the Manhattan Bridge. Eight people were reportedly slashed (none of the injuries was life-threatening). The knife-wielder was overcome by other passengers and the accompanying melee spilled out onto the Grand St. station platform when the train stopped there. The slasher was arrested at the station and the victims were taken by ambulance to the Hospital.
Was this part of a new Jackie Chan Movie? "Kung Fu Subway Slasher"
According to Ch.7 Eyewitness news a 17-year-old HS student ran amok with a box-cutter aboard a "D" train as it crossed the Manhattan Bridge. He reportedly told authorities that he was "stressed out". Oh really? "D" train taking too long to cross the bridge (everybody out and push)?
Anyway, none of the injuries were life-threatening and all the injured parties are being tended to. One gent, however, suffered a nasty cut across his neck.
Wayne
He's probably been reading all the recent posts about the MannyB going out and cracked under the strain. At least, that's what his court appointed lawyer will argue when they hold the preliminary hearing.
>>>He's probably been reading all the recent posts about the MannyB going out and cracked under the strain.
At least, that's what his court appointed lawyer will argue when they hold the preliminary hearing. <<<
Calling Ron Kuby!
I still think heypaul is somehow involved....
Hey Dougie, I resemble that remark. I can prove with geometric logic that there was a key to the food locker. If it weren't for a few disloyal officers who fought me at every turn.....
Like I was saying, at the time of the incident on the D train, I was down by McDonald Ave yards communing with the Sperry Railcar.... No actually I was out tutoring.
Hey Paul, there was no key, the mess boys ate the strawberries!!!
Hey Paul, there was no key, the mess boys ate the strawberries!!!
That's what they want you to think.
Hey Paul, once again you have come through for me. I knew that there was someone out there who wouldn't believe the rumors by those disloyal officers.
You know seriously, as portrayed by Bogart in the Caine Mutiny, I think that the officers could have supported Queeq, especially after he tried to reach out to them in one of his ward room speeches. He tried to make peace, but they branded him as a coward. And yet he was in the middle of it long before most of them. He was a tired frightened man.
Click ... click ... clickety ... click ...
Thats either Bogart (Queeg) with his little steel marbles (I was afraid to say balls) or the old Yonkers Raceway Commercial!!! Remember???
The one thing about that movie I hated was, How could the father from "Father Knows Best" turn out to be such a heel??
The cad in the Caine Mutiny was Fred McMurray.
Robert Young was the father in Father Knows Best
Fred McMurray was father in another series, which I
did not watch too often---but enough not too trust a
guy who wore patches on the elbows of his jackets or
sweaters.
You're right-its
My Three Sons!!!!
Remember, the memory is the first to go!!!!
11/11/99
BMT MAN,
C'mon! heypaul would never attain that level of violence! heypaul is only capable of a poke of the eyes ala Moe Howard!!
Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk! Nyuk! Wooo Wooo Wooo Wooo !!!!
Bill Newkirk
Actually, the TA will be brought up on charges of forcing the passengers to endure "humiliating conditions" such as the Manny B ride on the R-68s, which will be cited as a contributing factor to this incident.
Good grief!
--Mark
In a way, the incident helps restore my faith in human nature. Not only did several passengers overpower and restrain the attacker, but according to some reports they also gave him a nice, well-deserved beating. A courageous man in his SIXTIES was the first one to grab and restrain the attacker! The bravery of these passengers kept the incident from being much worse than it could have been, and hopefully their little bit of vigilante justice will make the next would-be maniac think twice.
Of course, there's a downside to all this ... had the attacker chosen a suburban commuter train for his rampage, he probably would have been able to slash many more people and quite possibly could have escaped. Suit-wearing suburban commuters probably don't have half the courage of the typcial urban subway rider.
I think that's a grossly unfair generalization. If I remember, Colin Ferguson -- who had an automatic weapon, not a box-cutter -- was overpowered and wrestled down by passengers, including one who'd been shot.
Can we watch out for stereotyping any particular kind of transit rider, hmmmmmmmm?
[re cowardliness of suburban commuters vs. subway riders]
[I think that's a grossly unfair generalization. If I remember, Colin Ferguson -- who had an automatic weapon, not a box-cutter -- was overpowered and wrestled down by passengers, including one who'd been shot.]
Only after he stopped shooting to reload. While Ferguson was shooting, no one did anything even though there were people behind him who could have jumped him fairly easy. In addition - I may be wrong about this, and if I am I'll stand corrected - the first man to grab Ferguson had some sort of law enforcement background, possibly a former military police officer. Once he jumped on, a couple other men decided to join in. God only knows what would have happened otherwise.
While Ferguson was shooting, no one did anything even though there were people behind him who could have jumped him fairly easy.
OH. If this is true, I stand corrected on the facts.
But I still don't believe the idea that wearing a suit, riding commuter trains and living in the burbs makes someone any less courageous or brave than living within NYC and riding the subways. Which was what I took away from your post.
I agree with JV on one point: type of weapons involved. It is easier to apprehend and subdue (sorry about the pun there) someone weilding a boxcutter than it is to grab a maniac with a loaded weapon.
It's like mixing apples and oranges. One is much more deadly than the other.
Doug aka BMTman
re cowardliness of suburban commuters vs. subway riders]
[I think that's a grossly unfair generalization. If I remember, Colin Ferguson -- who had an automatic weapon, not a box-cutter -- was overpowered and wrestled down by passengers, including one who'd been shot.]
Only after he stopped shooting to reload. While Ferguson was shooting, no one did anything even though there were people behind him who could have jumped him fairly easy. In addition - I may be wrong about this, and if I am I'll stand corrected - the first man to grab Ferguson had some sort of law enforcement background, possibly a former military police officer.
For one thing, a gun is a lot different from a box cutter. Ferguson moved methodically down the aisle. Those who Ferguson passed had good reason to hope he would not turn back with a high powered weapon.
Now it just so happens I am a former military police officer (and military police instructor--519th MP Bn., 1969). I've always wondered what I would have done in a situation with a gun-wielding assailant whose attention wasn't directed at me. A Colin Ferguson situation or maybe a hold-up, assuming I was off duty and unarmed.
My assumption, by training and instinct, is that I would attempt to drop back, look for an opporunity, then strike swiftly to disarm and disabled the miscreant.
However, not too long ago, I saw a video (on a security camera) of a fellow who did exactly what I just described. He had no obligation to put himself in harm's way (that's why I specified off-duty) but struck in what looked to me like an advantageous position. He failed at his initial attempt to disarm and wound up quite dead.
The people on the LIRR did the right thing. When Ferguson was reloading and not in a position to wheel around and fire, they struck and disabled him. I think it was a tribute to self-restraint and basic human decency that Ferguson walked out of that train in one piece.
In the case of the subway slasher, the passengers also did the right thing under the circumstanes. My compliments to them.
No one knows exactly how he will handle a situation until he is in it.
[No one knows exactly how he will handle a situation until he is in it.]
That reminds me of something I read a number of years ago. The military conducted periodic tests of its missile-silo crews to see how'd they react if a launch order came through. For all I know, these tests might continue today. At any rate, I read that the military leaders who ordered these tests placed relatively little faith in their outcome. It was easy for the silo crews to go through all the motions when a launch order came through, as they knew these were drills. But no one could tell just how the crews would react if no one called "stop" and they actually had to fire the missiles. That last step remained a great unknown.
There's a parallel of sorts to responding to violence on the subway (or elsewhere). It's easy for me or you or anyone else to say that we'd act properly and disable the attacker. But when push comes to shove (literally!), there's no way to be sure. People react differently when they're running on fight-or-flight instincts as opposed to reason.
We just should be happy that the people on the D train yesterday acted in the right manner.
Have you ever stared down the barrel of a gun? A gun is much more intimidating than a boxcutter. It's remarkable that some had the courage to subdue him after he ran out of ammo.
Because of this you could take the position of my back woods, survivalist, pine barrens friend. His personal motto is "Carry consealed, the life you save might be your own."
Last Sunday I went to the Railroad Artifact Show and Sale in Gaithersburg, MD. I was lucky that I could buy several 1970's NYC Subway Maps. Actually, they were called Subway Guides then.
I saw a word called railroadiana. I looked up the dictionary and found nothing. What does railroadiana mean?
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
A quick definition would be "Items relating to Railroads". The online auction website, Ebay, has a Railroadiana category at http://listings.ebay.com/aw/listings/list/all/category1444/index.html
I know nothing! Nothing!!
11/11/99
I know,it has to be one of the three:
1) An R-68 (Q) with R-9 compressors!
2) The TA announced via PA of a fare rollback!
3) The conductor announced stations and everybody understood each word!
Bill Newkirk
What on earth were they laughing at? Did an R68 make its appearance or something? Or did someone grease the seats and everyone went slip sliding away?
Wayne
Perhaps they were overjoyed at making it safely across the Manhattan Bridge without falling into the river.
They may have heard a bird warble sound from an adjacent R68 when the doors closed instead of the usual chimes.
Oh YEAH, I forgot about that one! Odd door chimes, #2658. Instead of the normal "D#-B" or "C-E" notes, this one has THREE notes - a G, then a trilling "E" then a "C". Never heard anything as odd as this one.
Sounds like a bird got into the works.
Wayne
And I thought only the R-46s had funny door chimes.
Want to know what would have been really funny? A D train of those lumbering R-68s outrunning a Q train of slant R-40s. Nah, that would be unthinkable.
Not only unthinkable, it would be impossible.
As for the funny door chime and the NBC three-tone chime:
I will put it into simple musical terms.
N-B-C goes "G" below middle C, "E" above middle C then middle C (like the little break in "I Melt With You" by Modern English, ca.1983)
The door chime I heard starts with "G" above middle C then descends to middle C, stopping at "E" above middle C. As I mentioned, the unit number is #2658. Anyone with enough patience to look out for it will hear what I heard.
Wayne
Put it this way: I've never heard a three-tone door chime on an R-46.
Neither have I, but #6022-3-5-4 is an exercise in cacophony, with each sounding a different pair of notes. And let's not forget #5927 - with the "A-F" ("Stand Or Fall") chime.
Wayne
"...this one has THREE notes - a G, then a trilling "E" then a "C". Never heard anything as odd as this one."
Isn't the NBC chime supposed to be "G-E-C"?
Indeed it is.
Here's something intriguing: If Train Operators are trained to run the subway equipment (electric cars), are they qualified to run the TA's diesel equipment?
If not, would those trained to operate the NYCT's fleet of diesels -- including the SBK locos -- be considered engineers or T/Os.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Doug aka BMTman
When you first come to T/O, you are only trained to operate passenger cars. At some later point, when you have enough seniority, you can a work train job. When that pick starts, you go back to school car to qualify on the diesels. When you finish, you begin to work the job you picked, still beng called a T/O.
You first train in yard and terminal service, then passenger service.
Then you work the job you pick. For work trains, you must pick a w/t
job, then you go to school car and qualify for it. Then you work the w/t job you pick. Always being a Train Operator. Brian
What about the two SBK diesels?
I thought they were up to FRA standards (ditch lights, grab irons) since they interchange with FRA RR's (well they used to). Is there any additonal TA training to regular diesel training to operate these engines and or operatre them over 3rd Ave crossing in Brooklyn?
FRA regulations are very lenient for class III railroads.
Of which NYCH and SBK are both.
Things the LIRR or BNSF could never get away with happen
here. Also the TA had SBK de-certified years ago along
with SIRTOA to avoid regulatory oversight.
T/O's on do not have to be certified as locomotive
engineers nor do the engines have to meet FRA standards
anymore.
The principal argument here was that the Authority no
longer interchanges common carrier cars with the rest of
"the general railway system of the United States"
So therefore the regulations regarding FRA oversight no
longer apply. New cars are actually off loaded BEFORE they
reach the offical NYCT system, so the common carrier cars
they are loaded upon don't actually travel on the subway
system proper. Although SBK is a wholly owned MTA
property.
They had managed to finagle out of RR retirement for SBK
men before that on the grounds that no one was an actual
employee of SBK, but NYCTA employee's working under loan.
If anyone remembers, those were listed as temp jobs in the
work program.
As usual the TA gets away with whatever they like.
But what about the two conrail gondolas in 38th St yard?
Hummn...........
Transit Pro -- what about those Conrail Gondolas at 38th Street?
When did they enter the system, and if the Feds found out, what would happen to NYCT? Would they be fined for that?
Inquiring minds want to know....
Doug aka BMTman
I'd like to know why they're there and for how long myself.
TA wouldn't likely suffer any consequeces because the FRA only sanctions for gross violations or for safety matters. This doesn't fit either bill.
>>As usual the TA gets away with whatever they like.
WOW,
Yah your right.
There are a small handful of SBK Motormen who did possess Locomotive Engineer Licences when South Brooklyn was an interchange. There are no more torpedos and flares to be found on any of the SBK equipment. The 92 day inspection cards have long been removed and those strobe lights are not hooked up anymore. By the way there is one extra locomotive with the required switching steps in lieu of the ladders still in service as an original spare for SBK 1 & 2. For a prize of $1.50 refunded to your metrocard, can you number it? Prizes to be awarded on or after December 15th.
Isn't locomotive 57 considered to be a spare? I can recall seing pictures of 57 in operation with N1 and N2 on the Bay Ridge Lines pulling R27s and R30s during the Willy B closure back in 1988.
-Stef
A poster to this board stated the other day that he heard there will be no more of the old diesels after 11/15/99. Has this been confirmed?? If it is true I'm certainly glad I made a video of my 3 yr old son Arthur narrating the Main St RR crossing a block E/O Mineola Station. I only had the cam going when the gates were down and have about 30 trains. (It was the PM rush) There were alot of diesels, some speeding through, some slowly switching to the Oyster Bay line. There was even an old diesel pulling a new bi-level loco, just them two, no ralcars. Of course there were M1-3's and Bi-levels too. And Arthur did a fine job differenciating between them.
G-d, I sure hope the New York & Atlantic RR doesn't start using dual-mode or bi-level loco's or we'll never see another diesel on L.I.
Well, the new locos are also Diesel, in that they use an engine invented by Rudolf Diesel.
If indeed the old LIRR diesels will be gone as of 11/15, I'll be tickled pink. Those horrible pieces of [deleted] should have been scrapped 15 years ago. I'd pay $25 for the privilege of taking a cutting torch to one of them.
11/11/99
Mr.Rosa,
You'll be tickled even pinker that some tourist railroads have picked up the old coaches. One line near Stone Mountain,Georgia I was told had the end vestibules cut out to become observation cars. I haven't seen any photos of them. Also The Susquehanna (Railroad,not hat company)and now the Cape Code Railroad. I'm sure any SubTalkers out there may add to the list.
Bill Newkirk
NY&A acquired some of them to assemble an office train! I wonder what scheme they will be repainted into???
Is the Susquehanna located on Bagel Street??
Sorry Guys, couldn't resist!
The Yuma Valley Railroad waaaaaaaaaaaaaay out west in Arizona bought one too! They plan to convert it into a diner-type car for their tourist operation.
Two cars (I think it was 2780 and 2808) came to California bout twelve years ago, and sat on a siding in Brea, about 30 miles east of Los Angeles. They were bought by a realty company whose local office is in a railroad station type building adjoined by a former Union Pacific caboose. The realty company never used the LIRR cars and they disappeared about five years ago. I have NO idea what became of them. They were filthy, and covered with graffiti; someone said that the graffiti appeared on the cars while they rested at the Philadelphia 30th Street yard before their trip west.
[You'll be tickled even pinker that some tourist railroads have picked up the old coaches. One line near Stone Mountain,Georgia I was told had the end vestibules cut out to become observation cars. I haven't seen any photos of them. Also The Susquehanna (Railroad,not hat company)and now the Cape Code Railroad. I'm sure any SubTalkers out there may add to the list.]
What a gross thought!
Sorry Pete, but I'm gonna miss them. I certainly don't like what they did to the cars, making them look like the M1's without the comfortable & reversible seats, and they could've cleaned the windows once in a while. However I remember when those cars were electric, and I remember the old diesel cars, with the bar cars, etc. I always loved the sounds of the diesels, the older one had a rising sound like the bull & pinion gear subways. (completely different sound though, but rising) I will especially miss standing on the platforms between cars, especially behind the loco, listening to the clanking metal above the steps. (Where will smokers go now!!) Those trains had an old fashioned railroad flair to them. Riding on the Montauk Branch between LIC & Jamaica made me feel like I was on Pettycoat Junction. There just isn't that ambiance on the M1, M3, or the Bi-Levels. If I don't ride on one in the next few days, (or if they aren't being discontinued) it will be fitting that my last ride on one was from Mineola to Oyster Bay for the Oyster Festival.
Central NY Chapter NRHS bought 4 coaches of which 2 have been delivered (11-1), these cars have already seen service on the Ontrack (NYS&W) Syracuse University football train
11/11/99
Sorry Sarge! Looks like we all are a victim of progress. I felt the same way when the BMT Standards , Lackawanna MU's and other classics ceased to be a part of everyday life. We have our memories and videotape etc.,but it doesn't compare to experiencing it in real life.
Bill Newkirk
There are no more Standards? Not even on the "LL"??
Hey, the South Jersey Rail Road had some ex-MTA FA and FB units stored at their Winslow Jct. facility. I think they have disappeared now except for one FA which they are now painting in the NYC colour scheem.
Does anyone know if either the Railroad Museum of Long Island or the Danbury Railway Museum plans go obtain any of the equipment that is currently being phased out?
Danbury just took delivery of LIRR Alco FA "Powerpack" #617
Just in case things get a little out of hand here. Too many CAPITAL LETTERS being thrown around. Or too much RED INK. Just make the posters disperse.
I guess it probably wouldn't be a highly desirable assignment amongst the officers.
Now that it looks like the diesel era is about to end on L.I., I have a question I've been worrying about for about 30 years but were afraid to ask. Even though there are many different models there are basically only 2 types of diesel locomotives. The type you see on the LIRR presently with a squared off front and can be driven in either direction, either in front of or behind the engine. The other type that was on the LIRR until recently has a rounded front nose with the cab only in front with the windshield from one end to the other. Or a better clarification, the kind on Silver Streak. Now my question. What are each type called? (how do you differentiate between the two verbally) and what is the difference between them. Why are there only those 2 types among the many different models.
After reading your post a couple times, I'm going to assume you are talking about the "power pack" units ??
If so....the ones with more square-ish features are formerly Alco FA-2's (and maybe an FA-1 or two -- I think 600 and 618 were FA-1's).
The more round ones, you describe them as "ones from 'Silver Streak') are EMD F-7 or F-9's. These would have been units 619-622.
The reason the EMD's were done to LIRR power packs is that there were no longer any Alco FA's available from other railroads when they were converted. Originally, the Alco FA-1 and FA-2 units kept their original Alco engines but had traction motors removed. In later years, many were rebuilt with a "sled" type engine system which had a smaller Detroit Diesel 12-cylinder engine and generator set mounted on a removable frame (i.e. "sled") which fit into the carbody. It was much quieter than the original Alco engine and, of course, smoked a lot less.
Engines 600 - 609 were FA-2s; engines 610 - 618 were FA-1s; Engine 619 was an F9; and engines 619 - 623 were F7s.
600 was ex-NYC; 601 - 606 were ex-L&N; 607 - 610 were ex-Western Maryland; 611 - 616 were ex-BN, originally SP&S; 617 - 618 were ex-NH; 619 - 620 were ex-Milwaukee Road(619 was the first rebuild with the sled); and 621 - 623 were ex-B&O.
Check out the book, "Diesels of the Sunrise Trial," by John Scala. Superb full color pictures of all the diesels that ran (through 1984) on the LIRR.
One of the FAs was donated to the Illinois Railroad Museum and it's sitting on the static display line, still in (very faded) LIRR paint, the scheme with the large white strip just below the screens, like a belt.
Thanks for the details. I didn't have my copy of the book handy.
The 604 is at the Portola museum waaay out in California. It was supposed to have been painted to Union Pacific colors. Have never been there so I cannot confirm.
11/11/99
If you didn't notice Dave's post he mentioned "power packs" #621-623. Although #623 did exist , it never was converted into a "power pack". It was purchased along with the other B&O units possibly as a parts source. I photographed it in Morris Park yard from a passing LIC/Oyster Bay train I was riding years ago. It was still in the B&O blue with yellow trim.
Bill Newkirk
On today's "The Map", the 7 express is almost regarded as a separate line, like the Z and 9 which run totally concurrent with other lines.
If such is the case, why not run 7 expresses as the the purple circle, 11 trains?
The use of the diamond to designate rush hour services has not been an unqualified success. IT seemed a good idea at the time but even when the system was implemented the 6 express ran mid-day as well as rush hours yet the diamond was used to deferentiate it from the 6 local. The 7 express has changed a few times to,from a full day service to rush only then back so it makes some sense to continue the diamond.
The two dopplegangers,#9 and Z, were a little more difficult. Basically they duplicated the parent #1 and J services but they ran skip-stop service as oppossed to true express service. This required a bit more clarification for passengers as a train will make one stop and skip the next. At times you must ravel beyond your destination and double back on the next train. This doesn't happen with regular express and local service.
I admit its an imperfect system.
Larry,RedbirdR33
But the diamond can be confusing because sometimes the trains are signed wrong. This past July I got on what I thought was a #7 express train at Queensboro Plaza because it had a diamond on the front. The next stop the train made was Rawson St and it made all other local stops. There was no announcement or anything. If R62As are indeed going to be reassigned to the #7, the express trains should be designated with the #11, which is the other purple circle on the R62A roll signs. I don't think the R33/36 roll signs go above 7.
"If R62As are indeed going to be reassigned to the
#7, the express trains should be designated with the #11, which is the other purple circle on the R62A roll signs. I don't think
the R33/36 roll signs go above 7"
Wouldn't it be better for the new rolling signs to display 8 instead of 11 to make things more simplier?
N Broadway Line
The 8 is green on the rollsigns.
"If R62As are indeed going to be reassigned to the
#7, the express trains should be designated with the #11, which is the other purple circle on the R62A roll signs. I don't think
the R33/36 roll signs go above 7"
Wouldn't it be better for the new rolling signs to display 8 instead of 11 to make things more simplier?
N Broadway Line
There is already a green 8 sign.........
3TM
Wasn't the 8 originally the remainder of the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx until it was torn down???? If so how does S-T er's feel about the reassigned of route #'s
The 8 Has not been used in 25 years, if they are going to move trains over to Flushing, they could always put in new signs, which they might have to do anyway. #8 Flushing Express sounds Right, beside the 8 stopped at Queensboro Plaza, before it rode on the 3rd Ave Bronx
With the current R-36/33 WF cars, they set the side signs to "<--Express-Local-->" or "<--Local-Express-->", with the arrows indicating the direction of express travel. That way, they only need to change the signs once, at mid-day when the express direction changes.
With R62-type cars, they will not be able to do this; they will need to change the signs from diamond to circle, or 11 to 7, at the end of each express run, and back again at the end of a local run. More work for the conductors. The only way around it will be to install a system of motorized sign selection - not likely.
They could also put in those electronic signs, like the R44/46 have. They may be hard to read, but the ability to change all of them with a flip of the switch can come in handy. I'm sure that poor guy who has to change all the B trains from 145th. St. to Bedford Park Blvd. every afternoon at Stillwell would love to see them on the R68. Boy, his wrist must be really sore after he gets off work.
They have 2 guys and they have battery powered screwdrivers. I believe the shape of the head is and octogon unlike the phillips and flat heads. The change it from
36 Street ---> Bedford Pk Blvd
Bedford Pk Blvd ---> 145 St, Manhattan
145 St Manhattan ---> Bedford Pk Blvd
Bedford Pk Blvd ---> 21 St-Queensbridge
21 St-Queensbridge ---> 36 Street
8 times a day, wow those batteries are gonna run REALLY fast!
I ride that line almost every day, and i've never seen them use powered tools to change those signs. It's always a metal hand crank. Ditto for the other end at BBB in the morning.
Why 11. Is 10 also in use?
I think 10 is green on the R62's
This is the page with all the current bullets.
Are these the bullets of all the combined subway cars. BTW I've seen a Yellow S on a R68A before.
You have already seen a yellow "S," an orange "S," and a gray "S."
Not an orange S
I have seen the orange "S" on the slant R40, during the 1995 midday bridge closure where one set of slant R40's was used for the Grand St. shuttle.
Some cars should also have both J and M diamond signs. I know the R32 has a diamond J sign on it's side roller curtains, allowing for a possible "Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton" service.
The orange S is being used right as we post this weekend on the R-68's on the Grand-21st St shuttle. (saw one yesterday)
11/13/99
On those bullets (8) - (10) - (11) - (12) & (13) , were any of those numbers set aside for a possible new service soon?
Bill Newkirk
I think #8 was reserved for the Pelham express, the #9 for the Bway skip-stop exp. (implemented in 89) and the #11 for the Flushing express. Notice how the the #11 was not assigned as a red line train. I would presume that a West-Side red #11 would get confused with the #1 should it be put in use.
As for #12 and #13, your guess is as good as mine.
What about 10?
I heard the 10 was for the Jerome line. The 12 was for the White Plains Rd line. Possibly for skip stop with the 2........
3TM
The 12 and 13 I heard were the #2 & #3 with the southern terminals switched.
Ok. I can hear it now. "This is 6Av. Transfer to the F,1,12, and 13 trains."
3TM
The IRT Numeber 8 originally belonged to the Astoria line (Times Sq to Ditmars Blvd), and was used briefly when the R12s arrived, until the Astoria line became BMT-only in 1949. It was also used approx. 1967-1975 for the Third Ave. El in the Bronx, but the number never appeared (afaik) on the trains themselves, only on the maps (like "MJ" for the Myrtle Ave. El).
Mentioning motorized route signs - Chicago CTA has them. The T.O. controlls the signs in all of the cars. It's kind of neat to watch the signs all change at once as it approaches the Loop downtown.
-- Ed Sachs
Ive seen them in Cleveland and on the LA Green Line, the whole train changes at once
Denver's light rail cars also have motorized roll signs. One flip of a switch, and voila. Buses have electronic signs.
Speaking of the 8, one poster reported seeing a train of R-12s on the 3rd Ave. el sporting a #8 sign up front, but usually those cars were marked, "shuttle".
I always liked to see "roll signs" do their thing. I have an actual IND NYC subway black roll sign box in my basement. I made a crank handle support
to hold the crank and I can roll the sign whenever. I have a Philly Red Arrow bus sign that I unroll on the floor. I guess I should design a box for it so I could crank it up and down.
Chuck Greene
11/12/99
How do we know that IF the R-62A's do go to the #7 , they will possibly receive a minor overhaul. One thing in the overhaul could be the replacement of side roll signs with LED or LCD electronic signs ?
Bill Newkirk
LEDs are better.
Or they could just leave the signs alone like they do on the "6" express...
The 8 is reserved for the Pelham express. They were considering changing thi a few years ago.
I agree that it would be better to use 8 instead of 11 for the Flushing express. But the green 8 sign on the R62/62A curtains would look kind of awkward on the Flushing Line whose color is purple. That's why we have a 9 train and no 8 now. If the 8 sign on the roll signs was red, it would have been paired with the 1. They should put a purple 8 sign on the R142's roll signs.
The R-142 won't have Rollsigns.
So they will only have electronic signs, right? Will they be like the front signs on the R110A? I remember seeing a red 2 and, on a rare occasion, a green 5 on the R110A.
All pictures of the R142 show that they will have roller signs up front. Perhaps the R143 will have up-front LED/LCD signs.
All of those pictures are computer simulated. The R-143 hasn't been built yet.
I think they still have the mock up in the 207 yard. Do anybody know for sure??????
3TM
11/14/99
Isn't on display in the Transit Museum ?
Bill Newkirk
"The two dopplegangers,#9 and Z, were a little more difficult. Basically they duplicated the parent #1 and J services but they
ran skip-stop service as oppossed to true express service."
One big reason why I oppose these services. But above all, it really erks me to see the MTA ignore the possibility of creating similar express services on these lines.
N Broadway Line
I always thought it would make J/Z service much easier during rush hours if the Z was in a diamond, and the skip-stop J was also in a diamond. Then people would know that a J in a diamond is going skip-stop, and one in a circle goes local. Sometimes people don't realize that a J train might not stop at their station.
1. Was there any reason DC's Yellow Line is just a
"doppelganger"/twin stop line?
The other four lines cover considerable distances
independent of another line, but the Yellow is little more
than a shuttle when not attched to the Green or Blue
lines.
2. The Red Line is the only line that never shares tracks
with another line(now it doesn't, anyway). Why is the Red
Line that way while the other four aren't?
Originally the Yellow Line was supposed to go all the way out to Greenbelt, sharing tracks with the Green Line. It was also supposed to go to Franconia-Springfield, NOT to Huntington as it currently does. Delays in construction contributed to the decision to change the routing. I still think that the Yellow Line should go to Greenbelt at least in the rush hours or during rush/mid-days. Having it terminate at Mt.Vernon Sq-UDC is useless.
The Red line was always planned as a solo venture, from day one. Since it is almost a loop, I guess they figured that one service would be sufficient and more than one redundant. There are two connections to the rest of the system: one at Fort Totten (to the Green Line) and the other just south of Farragut North (to the Blue/Orange lines). These are only one-track connections.
Wayne
The Red line was always planned as a solo venture, from day one. Since it is almost a loop, I guess they figured that one service would be sufficient and more than one redundant.
Although Metro does, or at least used to, run two services on the Red Line in the rush hour: the regular service that runs over the whole line, and the short-turn service between Silver Spring and Grosvenor.
-- Tim
Yes, they still DO run that service.
Wayne
My last visit to Washington confirmed thare are many short turn trips to Grosvener and Silver Springs. If you don't know this, you won't know which Red Line train to take for a specific direction. You will be looking for the signs to read the end terminus points!
Chuck Greene
I've seen short turn service to Grosvenor on Sundays.
Silver Spring to Grosvenor service runs weekdays from about 7 AM to 7 PM and Saturday and Sunday from 10 AM to 7 PM. At those times, every other train goes from Glenmont to Shady Grove. At all other times, all trains go from Glenmont to Silver Spring.
Wayne:
I have a 1978 color map of the D.C. system and it depicts exactly what you say. The Yellow goes to Greenbelt and the the other way to Franconia - Springfield. I have it all marked up with the line openings and stations that opened. Now if I could only switch the Blue and Yellow colors in Alexandria and "white out" the Yellow line north of Mt. Vernon-UDC!
Chuck Greene
Also, remember that before the recent completion of the Green Line tunnel, rush-hour Green Line trains operated between Greenbelt and downtown via the Fort Totten connector and the Red Line.
The yellow line has a very important purpose in my opinion, it provides a faster way to get from DC to Virginia. When the new cars arrive, I want to see the yellow line go to Silver Spring, and a purple ine from Grosvenor to Greenbelt. I am a red line customer and like the M79 and 6 in New York, I know all the service patterns on this line. HAVING ALL TRAINS DOING THE WHOLE ROUTE WILL RESULT IN OVERCROWDING DURING AM RUSH AT WOODLEY PARK AND SOMETIMES EVEN CLEVELAND PARK!!! Services starting at Grosvenor and Silver Spring is a must!!! Hopefully WMATA will build the necessary track and will do so.
The yellow line has a very important purpose in my opinion, it provides a faster way to get from DC to Virginia.
What I thought of, more specifically, is that it provides a faster way to get from downtown DC to National Airport. Riding the Blue Line all the way around, via Rosslyn, isn't very attractive at all.
-- Tim
My friend (who a DC native) told me that it's always been his opinion that the red line was built to serve the I-270 corridor. It's the only line that servers upscale Montogomery county and as far as i can see it has the most frequent service.
Wayne
If you can ,please add,correct,delete
6101-6123 odd Push pull Bombardier 1985-1991
6150-9190
6201-6219 odd
6250-6274
6301-6308 Push Pull Bombardier 1996
6330-6358
6309-6310 Push Pull Bombardier 1997
6361-6374
8000-8141 M 3A Budd 1985=1985
8200-8377 M 1A Budd 1971-1973
8400-8471 M 2 GE 1973-1976
8500-8571
8651-8669 Odd
8700-8749
8800-8849
8900-8935 M 4 Tokyo 1989
8951-8985 odd
9000-9021 M 6 Morris Knudson 1994
9051-9081 odd
5198-5199 Comet 1 A GE 1978 NJT
5994-5999
5175-5177 Comet 11-A Bombardier 1983 NJT
588-5993
5178 Comet 11 B Bombardier 1987 NJT
5986-5987
6000-6003
5179-5180 Comet 111 Bombardier 1991 NJT
Steve
FDNY
Steve, Have printed off the LIRR & M-N rosters. Thanks for another learning event !
Mr t__:^)
Which one is the one that got stomped by Red Trim M-2 #8840 back in the 1980's (killing the motorman). It was a blue trim car. #8840 hit it so hard, it rode up and over the sill, and flattened it for a distance of fifty feet. Gave me the willies looking at the pictures. I was picturing something similar happening on the LIRR, since the equipment is virtually the same (M-2 has pentagraphs, the other car was just like the M-1) This happened just past the Wakefield cutoff in Mt.Vernon. #8840 was doing 65MPH when the accident occurred.
Wayne
Wayne: You may want to check out the north end of the Harmon Yard where M-1a's 8314 and 8315 reside. They were involved in a collision several years ago and got badly roughed up. They no longer are on the tracks or even their trucks. They simply sit on the ground.
Larry,RedbirdR33
M-2 has pentagraphs
Was that supposed to be pantographs or pentagrams? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone have an accurate Roster avaialble ,,showing Current stock
I have seen the Hoboken Terminal Site,,
It is missing the "Year Built" Info
Fleet Number
Model
Mfgr
date Built./Rebuilt
Thank you
Steve
The Aug.98 issue of Trains Magazine had a roster with the info you wanted.It might still be at WWW.Trains.com.
Let me preface this with I cannot speak for the local wide
negotiations. What's happening in Signals or Bus, Station,
etc. But if management's actions in RTO are any indication
of their general attitude, then there will be a strike.
In RTO the negotiations have not been going well for
either side. Management's proposals were so outlandish as
to suggest they either don't take this seriously or they
hold us in such utter contempt that to submit such
disrespectful proposals meant nothing to them. Probably both. Read on as to why.
They put forth 12 items that I like to refer to as the
dirty dozen. Some of these are technical and only TA
personnel would recognize their meaning. I will cite the
more heinous ones here.
*Creating a seperate rate of pay (lower of cousre) for non
road functions such as platform conductor or switching
train operator.
*using part time employees to perform platform or yard put
in duties.
*Privatize construction flagging, or in the absense of that, then hire part time employees for this function.
*Pre package the days off and the weekend jobs into groups for pick.
*Establish a 12 month earnings cap.
Now the first ones are objectionable for obvious reasons.
But the last sounds reasonable right? WRONG!
Because when the employees who have reached the overtime
cap are no longer avaiable, those who do not, or more
importantly CANNOT work over time will be forced to under
threat of suspension. It's alredy happening to me and several others. I hate working on MY day off. I have been forced to a half dozen times this pick so far.(began 8/30)
Some of my co workers, unaware they were scheduled to work on their days off didn't show up. They were suspended, one for 30 days!
We have all heard about the motorman who makes $100,000 a
year. This a TA attempt to stop this. Without getting into
the question of that issue, by capping those employees who
wish to work, management will be hurting those who don't.
This is a situation that could be avoided if management
would simply hire a sufficient number of crews to cover
the work. But they refuse to do so. Why? because it's
cheaper to pay conductor X to come in on his day off, than
it is to hire and train conductor Y.
This is fine for those employees willing or needing to
come in. And it worked for everyone's benifit. But now
management's hubris has gotten in the way. There are some
superintendents who don't like that there are crews who
make more than they do. Never mind that that poor motorman
or conductor is NEVER HOME! That he actually WORKED for that money.
Now the rest of management's dirty dozen is similarly
disgusting. But we are willing to discuss some of the
issues with them. They would like to change contracual
language that states there will be two picks a year to
state there will be AT LEAST two. This way they could
institute new schedules as need be. Ie: the Williamsburg
bridge work, or the Lennox project.
Fine we're not unreasonable. But they are.
Our proposals numbered about 30. In the past contracts,
management has truthfully claimed poverty. This time we
know they are sitting on a pile of cash. So there can be
NO discussion of impossibility. Our proposals are mostly
seeking to regain items we gave up in the past to help the
TA through the tough times. So one could assume they would
be at least willing to discuss them.
Save for four items, management REFUSED TO EVEN DISCUSS
THEM! we are talking some items that have NO COST!
Like for example: a proposal to allow uniformed employees
to have a choice of the summer uniform on warm days in
Oct, or the winter uniform on cold days in May.
Why object to a simple and REASONABLE request such as
this?
Or: a two day off weekend. At this time the contract
allows them to schedule employees to have seperate days
off. Like Tuesday and Friday. We want a guaranteed 64
hours between the Friday and the Monday. The hourly figure
is because the TA likes to abuse people by giving out jobs on a Friday that finishes at midnight, then on Monday a job that starts a 4AM! Days off? What days off?
Is this an unreasoable request? Again, management
absolutely refuses to discuss this.
There were a few things they would discuss. NONE of them
of any substance, and a few actually cost more to them
then some of our more important requests. Like our
proposal that a date-time stamp for documentation be
available at crew reporting locations. TA said it would
cost $46,000. And they agreed to it.
They also agreed to discuss (but not actually to) a proposal to allow conductors a choice to wear MTA ball caps instead of the tradional hat.
They are willing to talk about non issues, but the meat
and potatoes they refuse to speak of.
Of the the 21 individual propsals submitted by train crews
(9 T/O-12 C/R-Tw/O) they refuse to talk about a single
one!
Now some of these are important safety issues. Things like addresing cab time. We seek a standard like the Federal
Government imposes on the railroads. Nothing better, just
equal. The FRA mandates a train service employee may not
work inexcess of 12 hours. Greater periods result in
reduced alertness and creates a dangerous condition.
MANAGEMENT REFUSES TO DISCUSS THIS!
The FRA requires a minumum period between assignments. The TA says 8 hours between jobs is sufficient. Well after my
hour commute and a shower and meal, and then the alarm
clock rings, shave and breakfast, and another hour
commute. WHEN DID I SLEEP?!
TA refuses to discuss this. Why? When I was an engineer running a freight train, I was subject to these standards. So now that I deal with thousands of living New Yorkers I don't rate the same treatment? A box car of flour bound for Brooklyn gets better treatment than straphangers.
At the close of yesterdays sesion, TA labor relations
asked that our divisonal chairmen, the great Mike Carrube
(C/R-Tw/O) and Eddie Creighton (UMD), NOT discuss the
talks with the membership. The reason they stated was that they need to prevent rumors and that if the press gets a
hold of this it could be misconstrued.
NO! They want to hide the fact that they are not dealing
in good faith! Thank God our chairmen are honorable
leaders. They promtly came to the divisonal meeting and
reported the facts.
Now these two men are supposed to be involved with the
local wide negotiations. So far they have only been
allowed to deal with the RTO topics. Willie James has been
blocking their access to the general meetings about wages
discipline and benifits. This is why I have no information on those critical issues.
This is in violation of the local's by-laws. We all
believe that Willie has something to hide. Especially
after he had announced that these negotiations would not
be carried out in secret. So what's he hiding? Could this
be why management is playing hardball? That they own
Willie James?
Regardless, the membership of the local must vote on any
proposed contract, and if things continue this way that
contract will go down in flames.
A strike is coming. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
"...In the past contracts,
management has truthfully claimed poverty. This time we
know they are sitting on a pile of cash..."
Setting aside the whole labor-management drama being played out during negotiations, where do think this pile of cash comes from? It comes from transit riders mostly on their way to work. These same riders pay about the highest income taxes in America, part of which also goes towards the transit system. When they go home and get in their autos, the gasoline they put in the tank is also taxed. Everything we buy, even food, is taxed at 8.25%. Not to mention the tolls, real estate taxes, etc.
Your individual complaints against the negotiating process may or may not be valid. But let's try and remember that the MTA "cash pile" is acquired by their legal ability to tax the productive private sector and in effect re-distribute that income to a less than productive bureaucracy as it sees fit.
Oh no argument here. I fume every time I see my phone bill
and read: MTA surcharge. Or when I cross the Whitestone
Bridge and have to wait to pay that overpriced toll.
As one of those soaked to pay for the MTA I agree.
BUT, the huge profits the TA has seen in recent years have NOT been solely from the ridership increases.
Management has wrung huge productivity gains out of our
hides. MetroCard has sharply reduced the lost revenues
from fare beating, the capital realized from passengers
purchasing the weekly and monthly passes in advance.
The cost reduction programs and the staff cuts at the
operational level.
All of these have contributed greatly to the coffers at
370 Jay St. Now that they are overflowing, there's no
excuse for penny pinching when it comes to things like cab time. I thought they were serious about safety? Well it's
time to put the money where the mouth is!
Remember, I'm NOT talking about a raise. Simply making our working conditions safer, and more livable.
I must admit that the TA demands seem pretty unreasonable, and the TWU demands you mention seem pretty reasonable (except for the 64 hours -- 48 hours will do at a 24 hour per day agency). It appears that the TA has stopped trying to improve productivity, and has decided to cut compensation instead, but in a nickpicking way, not a big way. Sounds like a labor relations dept. trying to justify its existence. I guess the big issues are not on the table. The real issues for uniformed employees in the public sector generally are:
1) Wages and work choice based on seniority, so the workers who get paid the most do the least work.
2) Low productivity, and union rules that prevent increases.
3) Low wages, relative to the private sector, and:
4) Unfair (to the rest of us) high benefits.
When wages are low, and the non-wage benefit package is expensive, the last thing you want to do is hire another worker and pay for another benefit package. Might as well work them 100 hours per week! Unfortunately, public sector benefit packages are structured to reward long-time employees, while low wages repell new hires. That's why all public agencies are having trouble hiring competent workers.
Yes, if people are arguing about dumb things like this, it doesn't look good. I hope that's not the whole story.
Your'e pretty close to the mark in a blanket statement
kind of way.
To illustrate your truths, that open competitive Train
Operator exam? TA expected 48 to 55,000 to apply. They
barely got 24,000!
When Erik tells you something, it's the straight line!
I told all of you that with the economy roaring and there
being a general shortage of skilled workers this would
happen.
24,000! It's a drop in the bucket! After all is said and
done the TA will be lucky to have hired 12 or 1500 off of
that list!
GOOD FOR THEM!
And to all those new T/O's: WELCOME TO HELL!
(Only 24,000 show up for the exam).
That's part of the consequence of long term educational failure and family decline in the City of New York. Unfortunately, the majority of people we turn out lack the dicipline to operate a train. Its something most people should be able to do if they have the right characteristics.
Some thing for lots of jobs. If it weren't for the immigrants, no one would be able to make, fix or operate anything in this city anymore. Let's just say the Board of Education's MDBF is at 1970s levels.
You want to strike??? Go ahead. Here's to hoping you can afford being fined at least 2 days pay for every day the strike is on.
Just so you know right now - you DO NOT have the support of the majority of NYers. In the past transit strikes the only ones who have ever lost anything were the strikers themselves. I can assure you that most of the major companies in NYC have already made contingency plans to move their people around.
Also remember - you work for the MTA not the TWU. The Union only represents you. The MTA is the one who hires and fires. You want to work for a Government Agency - then you have to take the good with the bad.
I work for a financial institution and unions are not even allowed.
If we had one, and if we had a strike, we would bring the entire country to a financial halt.
That is all I have to say on the matter.
YES, we can afford to pay two days fine for every day we're out. All of us have been advised to take pension loans for the maximum amount availible. Moreover if we go, we won't come back untill the fines are suspended. It happened that way in 1966. In 1980, if they had just lasted a few more days......
We also know full well that we stand alone here. The News, The Post and practically every other media outlet has made their position quite clear. The public has NEVER supported us. The mayor and governor? We expect them to demand our heads as well.
Unions not allowed where you work? methinks thou art woefully misinformed. Unions are an Americans basic right. If there's no union where you work, it's because either the emlpoyees don't want one, or it really doesn't apply (the Jacoby & Meyers lawyers union?) OR, you haven't created enough solidatity to get one. Sounds like I detect a bit of envy there.
All of us here have a clear view of the possible consequences of a strike. When we're faced with a management that will not discuss basic safety and working conditions, our backs are against the wall.
Nothing in life worth attaining is easy. If we are not willing to fight for ourselves now, then we face the same type of extermination as has happened at CTA, SEPTA and other places.
If you wan't something bad enough then you must be willing to sacrifice for it. We have our lives invested here. What are we going to do? Just let them do as they please? It's OUR transit system as much as theirs. I will not accept the argument that they are the bosses. It's their decision to make. They may run the TA, but WE run the trains!
(Unions not allowed not possible).
Yes it is, by act of Congress, Federal Reserve Bank employees are not allowed to join a union. I know this for a fact, because my wife works there. No wonder they can get away with their motto "public sector pay, private sector benefits."
Sorry I had no idea that the fed was that way. I do know that there are several federal jobs like that.
(Sorry for the FED)
Don't feel sorry for FED employees. Despite the lack of a union, my wife now earns TWICE what I do, despite similar credentials before the fact. "My" union and the city, after bitter negotiations, just agreed to let me buy a Metrocard on a pre-tax basis, at no cost to the city. Without a union to negotiate with, the FED just starting giving its employees Metrocards years ago, as did many private employers.
Of course, my wife does more work, but that is because my management is incompentent and prevents me from getting work done. Two weeks ago I sat around surfing the NET. Last week I had to work until 9:00 p.m. on two days due to a tight deadline. This week I have nothing to do. At the FED, the workflow is managed and deadlines are met.
Part time job. Full time pay. No wonder taxes are so high.
There are two different R-46 handles being used in this thread. If they are both yours, please pick one and stick to it -- at least within the same thread.
Sorry, there is only ONE Transit Proffesional who was
formerly known as Mr. R-46. At one time I logged on and
had to re-enter my handle, and was feeling lazy about
entering the full name.
But fear NOT! I will be here to point out injustice in the
transit system.
Is my face red! I won't tell you how long after I made my post that I figured out that one was an abbreviation of the other.
Knowing that you can bring the entire country to a halt, doesn't that give you any leeway to ask for a clean bathroom, lunch break, 2 days off of work a week or other benefit you might desire? The purpose here is not to bring NYC to a halt so we can make a dollar, we have to force the MTA to recognize that we are human beings who don't deserve to be treated like S**T. Another reason why we may disrupt service is BECAUSE we have no support from the people of the city of New York. When was the last time you thanked a police officer, firefighter or other safety sensitive civil servant? If we had fellow New Yorkers demanding that people like us not be forced to work for up to 16 hours a day operating a 400 ton train carrying tens of thousands of people a trip, maybe the polititians would force the MTA to do an about face with their slave labor tactics. You breath in lead, cobalt, asbestos and enough steel dust that you don't require an iron supplement with your breakfast. Have you checked your lungs lately? Why should you as you sit in an air-conditioned office with a water cooler nearby. We perform a function FAR superior to yours. Your limo driver can get plenty of rest, a built in lunch time with use of the company car to his home. YOU CANT SHUT DOWN THE COUNTRY WITHOUT GIVING US THE CREDIT. If you can't get to Wall Street, we shut the Financial portion for you.
I just loved that last response you posted! You hit the nail right on the head!!!
As a motorman, I'm really sick and tired of management treating us like trash!!!
I heard on the TA radio today that the crew office is desperately looking for T/O's & C/R's to work their RDOs this weekend! I say screw them! They NEED us when it helps them, but they'll only throw up that CAP when they don't NEED us! Everything is only for their benefit, not ours!!!!
Another thing that needs to be addressed is their Progressive Discipline & their Kangaroo Court!!! They should not be allowed to look back years & years into your past record & bring up things that happened so long ago that you have forgotten about it!
Also, why is it that with virtually any write-up, the first thing they ask for is either 30 day suspension or dismissal? Scare tactic? I'm sick & tired of this BS!!!! After the passengers spit on and assault us, the TA wants to screw us more!!!!!!
The TA shakes your hand on a "job well done" with one hand, and with the other, they already have the knife in your back!!!
As much as I don't want to see it, I also think a strike is inevitable! We must all stick together on it!
If Mayor guiuliani can't give himself & his flunkies a second raise (a whopping 36% on that high salary they already make) since he's been in office, I think we're entitled to a comparable raise of at least 30 % over 3 years! Metro-North & LIRR may way more than we do for doing basically the same job! I demand parity!!!! We've let this go on for too long now. It's time for us to take a stand!
UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!!!!
You just described the Police Department. I guess all city agencies are pretty much the same.
Well - you wanted a Civil Service job. AT least they can't move your job out of state. I lucked out this time. I don't even have job security (even after 25 years). My employment is "at will". If my company wants to phase my position out then they can without any reason. I get severance pay but if they offer me a postion that I don't want I am out with nothing.
The problem is that the suburbs have a lot more money than the City, and they vote for Pataki, and so State government currently favors the commuter railroads with larger subsidies.
Giuliani and other politicians earn less pay than they would in comparable private sector jobs. It's an emotional issue, but it seems to me it's not a substantive one.
Glenn: If you're being treated like #@$%^&, then you have every right to withhold your services. Yours is a tough job and you help keep the city running. Believe me I saw some real traffic jams when I was in New York last August, and I can imagine of what could happen if there was a strike in New York. So the TA can't ne that stupid, or if they are, well, it's their problem. Go get 'em.
I just loved that last response you posted! You hit the nail right on the head!!!
As a motorman, I'm really sick and tired of management treating us like trash!!!
I heard on the TA radio today that the crew office is desperately looking for T/O's & C/R's to work their RDOs this weekend! I say screw them! They NEED us when it helps them, but they'll only throw up that CAP when they don't NEED us! Everything is only for their benefit, not ours!!!!
Another thing that needs to be addressed is their Progressive Discipline & their Kangaroo Court!!! They should not be allowed to look back years & years into your past record & bring up things that happened so long ago that you have forgotten about it!
Also, why is it that with virtually any write-up, the first thing they ask for is either 30 day suspension or dismissal? Scare tactic? I'm sick & tired of this BS!!!! After the passengers spit on and assault us, the TA wants to screw us more!!!!!!
The TA shakes your hand on a "job well done" with one hand, and with the other, they already have the knife in your back!!!
As much as I don't want to see it, I also think a strike is inevitable! We must all stick together on it!
If Mayor Giuliani can give himself & his flunkies a second raise (a whopping 36% on that high salary they already make) since he's been in office, I think we're entitled to a comparable raise of at least 30 % over 3 years! Metro-North & LIRR may way more than we do for doing basically the same job! I demand parity!!!! We've let this go on for too long now. It's time for us to take a stand!
UNITED WE STAND, DIVIDED WE FALL!!!!
IF we operate by rules and regulations as its is always mentioned(SCHOOL CAR) why is everyone up in arms? don't we operate school car everyday? why is it considered a job action? these are questions i've had on my mind for a long time.. If we motormen are being harrassed with operating too fast over switches or just not operating to posted speed why don't we give it to them? drilling out the yard how about checking the train not just charging up and cutting? aren't we supposed to check the entire train to the block even if there are 20 cars on the track and taking only 2 pieces? how about looking for obtructions around the train/tracks for that move? circuit brakers bco'd cars? we've made life so easy for people cut and run moves and the like if we did school car in the yards there would probably be more yard jobs now that part time people are being proposed in the yards...
I couldn't agree with you more.
LETS DO IT GO ON STRIKE WE NEED TO GET A MESSAGE ACROSS, WHILE THIS HURTS EVERYONE IT DOES DRIVE HOME A POINT, SHUT DOWN THE SYSTEM AND YOU SHOW FORCE THOUGH WE WILL PAY FOR IT FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS
Can you say "Air Traffic Controller"?
Remember, the trains must run, so it's not that easy to get rid of the people who run them. Here are potential forms of retaliation.
1) The city and state could cut off all operating assistance to the MTA, leaving it in no position to offer raises in arbitration even with a fare increase. The money could be used to build the improvements no one seems to know how to fund.
2) Private vans could be widely legalized, and permitted to use the bus stops.
3) The entire bus system could be privatized, and subsidized directly if necessary.
4) Payroll functions could be contracted out, as many businesses have done.
5) Station cleaning could be contracted out.
6) Certain car maintenance functions could be contracted out.
7) Automated signals could replace conductors and some, but not all, tower operators.
Hmmm. That leaves T/Os, some signal people, and some maintenence people with highly specific skills. So which TA employees are advocating a strike?
You Know, kma, you are right unions are fat and happy what they should have done is call a general strike and that senile in office pond scum reagan and his mental case right wing republican party would be in the toxic waste dump of history where they belong--Hmm, toxic waste dump-- maybe that's what they should do with National Airport, use it as a national depository for all the used up chemical waste that no one wants any more , it certainly has the name for it
Hmm, toxic waste dump-- maybe that's what they should do with National Airport, use it as a national depository for all the used up chemical waste that no one wants any more , it certainly has the name for it
Oooh, no. I like National! They just need to give it its correct name back.
It was, is, and always will be Washington National Airport, nothing else.
-- Tim
Of course I want everyone to operate by the rules. However, look at the contract & the rule book. As the saying goes, 51% is written in the favor of management. If management goes strictly by the contract, goes strictly by the rules, there will be many more hourly employees and supervisors working for 70%.
Be careful how you phrase things. The former General Superintendent of Jamaica Shop was asked a question at a warranty meeting. He began his reply by saying, "To tell you the truth......." at which time the questioner interrupted and said, "Does tis mean that all the other times you were lying to me?"
The point? Even if you never operate according to the rules, never tell anyone you are gonna start. Need I say more?
Point well put!
LIMO driver???? I should live so long.
If we shut down the country on a financial basis -credit is one thing no one will get.
You say you have no support from the people of the City, but consider that the typical subway rider earns *less* than you do, sometimes minimum wage. He has no pension or medical care, and can be fired for looking at the boss sideways.
Rightly or wrongly, the perception of the municipal unions among the general public is of people that have it really cushy, earn more than they do, don't put in a full day's work, etc. Everybody knows that cops walk and drive around in pairs, a luxury that the average unarmed citizen doesn't have, and that they did an end run with the state legislature to get a raise, and that they get days off to donate blood. Everybody knows about that motorman who made $100,000 in a year, and how people retire at almost full pay because of overtime. Lots of people remember retirement after 20 years, and what that did to subway service and the City budget. I have friends in the fire department--a dangerous job--but these guys got paid for sleeping, moonlighted in their spare time, and now that they've "retired" in middle age they have second careers! And everybody knows that whatever anyone says, there just isn't any money for raises without productivity gains.
The unions have expended a *lot* of capital. I've seen some of your demands and some of them seem quite reasonable to me while others seem assinine (the right to wear baseball caps?). But it's sort of immaterial because this stuff never even gets in the papers. Most people just think "why are these people who earn more than I do, work less than I do, and have better benefits than I do making my life miserable with a strike and taking more money out of my pocket"?
Rightly or wrongly, that's the perception.
Im not asking for sympathy, Im asking for support. The Teacher's association frequently asks for support when they schedule a parents teachers conference and we ALL hopefully go to those because the livelyhood and education of our children is number one so we have to keep a well established relationship with our teachers. Why shouldn't the same apply to all our public service employees? Thirty years ago we didn't need residency requirements because we had a garbageman, fireman and a couple of cops living in every building in NYC and there were incentives for them to stay in NYC. My guess is in the seventies when crime rates in parts of the Bronx and Brooklyn went up and buildings started burning down, it was because the civil servants who protected the areas they lived in got tired of increasing taxes and simply packed up and left therefore removing the attitude of protecting your own. Maybe Jeffery can ellaberate on this more in detail but I'd imagine few would sell drugs in my building if they knew a cop might live there.
As far as the pensions you did say it is a dangerous job for a firefighter and I agree that with the cancer rate higher for them, you should let them have their cake because they might not taste it for long. By the way the Train Operator who earned $100,000 earned every dime he did and if you have any complaints, you should direct it to the TA as to why someone who is so overworked is allowed to operate a train you might have to ride to work. I agree that no one should put in so many hours that it causes fatigue but if the people reading the papers would stop critizing us for donating our time away from our families and direct our jealousy and misbelief towards the NYCTA for letting us work by not hiring more conductors and train operators, then others in the city looking for employment would benefit from it too. Demand the best from your elected representatives. If you think I should be screwed, tell them that. If you think I shouldn't make 100g, tell them that too. Tell them that people are forced to work overtime and that NJ Transit had one major crash in their existance while we have one to two major accidents a year since 1988. Make your senators, congress persons and other bureacrats accountable but until then the ones who want to work will continue to do so.
(Pensions and residency)
The Wagner Administration agreed to let cops, fireman, teachers etc. move out of the city in the early 1960s during the white flight era in exchange for poltical support. The City asked to state to pass a law that said suburbanites could take city jobs, but not the other way around. Residency requirements remained for low paid city jobs, which are now held primarily by Afro-Americans. High paid government jobs, such as fireman and cops, continue to be primarily held by whites, now living primarily in the suburbs and on Staten Island.
Somehow the TA was not included in the escape bill. As a result, it is the only government agency with high paying jobs where non-whites comprise a majority of the workforce.
After Wagner helped one group of civil servants escape to the suburbs, Lindsey helped another retire to Florida with the most generous pensions in history. Needless to say, those hired since 1975 will not get similar penions. In fact, unless you stay in your job for 30 years, the pensions city workers now get are worse than any retirement plan in the private sector, with the exception of companies that do not offer a retirement plan at all.
So the great ripoffs happened years ago. And the people who did them paid 4.9 percent social security tax instead of 7.5, and got social security benefits at 62 instead of 67 or not at all.
It seems to me that the lack of a residency requirement still does the City a *lot* of harm.
Josh
I think it's fair to say that NJT is a mite smaller than the MTA!
But my point wasn't so much about whether *I* supported the TWU or not, but whether the public does, and in such cases perception counts more than reality. It doesn't matter to the general public whether a train operator earns every penny of his $100,000, or that most guys don't make anything near that--just that it's a darn site more than they make. Anyway, when I was in a union way back when, we had a guy like that--he earned more than the Executive VP who ran the place!
So--why not place safety limits on time worked, and give back on some other work rule that just has guys sitting around doing nothing? Make it a zero sum game, and everybody benefits.
I have already explained why there should not be a limit on earnings. There should be a limit on continuous hours worked, and consecutive days.
Again, when the high earning employees are prevented from working the overtime they desire. Management will force the employees who do not or more importantly cannot work the OT.
Since the nature of the job requres odd hours and days, living around that is difficult. When 48 hours before the crew office orders you to report for work on YOUR day off. It forces you to cancel a dentists appointment that took months to get, or to miss the once in a lifetime childs first play or some other such event.
Maagement refuses to hire a sufficient number ofcrews to cover the jobs. It's cheaper to pay the OT. But then they seek to cap the OT of those who want to make as much as they can. For two reasons, they find it humiliating when their subordinates earn more than they, and because they take a beating in the press when it gets out.
So to save a few bucks for the already stuffed coffers, I and many other transit workers must be sacrificed on the alter of cutting costs.
We will not stand for this any longer.
An ill wind blows for December. Be prepared.
Except that it's not just management that takes a beating when a motorman earns $100,000, it's the union. Remember what happened to the school janitors with their Jeeps? You're basically angling for headlines in the New York Post.
As to cancelling an appointment or missing your kid's play because you're notified 48 hours in advance that you have to go to work, well, most people would consider that the worst kind of whining, and I have to be honest and say I'm in that category.
Stick to the important issues--14 hour days, constant shuttling between night and day shifts, stuff like that--and you'll find *much* more sympathy. Otherwise, I doubt that the union will get much in the way of one way improvements, because the money isn't there; it's not the Lindsay years.
(Cancel kids play -- worst kind of whining)
I wouldn't think so. For my wife and I the kids come first. But the idea that its managment's problem to staff the trains with the minimum consideration under the rules, and labors problem to do as little as possible under the rules, shows the deficiency of a civil service/union environment. Would other employees be willing to catch a shift to allow an employee to see a kid's play while not affecting service? Would management make an effort for a good employee? In non-union organizations, such mutual favors go on all the time.
I couldn't agree more. Back in the days when I was an employee, if I had a doctor's appointment, I just told my boss, and he said "OK, see you." Conversely, he knew that if there was a problem I'd move heaven and earth to be there and get it fixed.
I couldn't agree more. Back in the days when I was an employee, if I had a doctor's appointment, I just told my boss, and he said "OK, see you." Conversely, he knew that if there was a problem I'd move heaven and earth to be there and get it fixed.
Which is how it should be! :-) And all too often isn't. :-(
In 1990 I changed jobs. Sometime in the first couple of weeks, I found myself telling my team leader that I would need to leave at 4:30 that day, and explaining why. He interrupted me and said, "If you need to leave, you leave. That's [name of company]." What a great attitude -- and, of course, they expected you to do everything in your power to make your project a success, including some unexpected overtime. But there was an atmosphere of mutual respect.
Unfortunately, during my time there (almost six years), I saw this attitude deteriorate faster and faster, to the point that in early 1996, after I had come to Sweden, our project management announced that we would be required to work 10 hours per day, six days a week, until further notice. (Most of this overtime would be uncompensated, too.) Management chose to back off when confronted with Swedish law on the subject....
-- Tim
There are certainly exceptions, and it's worth noting that in the days before the union movement some companies literally worked blue collar employees to death. Unfortunately a lot of it has to do with the value of the employee and the overall social contract--e.g., after the war large Japanese companies achieved labor peace by giving their employees lifetime employment, decent benefits, and respect, but at the same time they require an amount of work out of everybody that would be unacceptable in a Western country. So how does one keep abuses to a minimum without creating those unsustainable union inefficiencies? I don't pretend to know, particularly at a time when the job market is being flooded with unskilled 3rd world laborers.
As to cancelling an appointment or missing your kid's play because you're notified 48 hours in advance that you have to go to work, well, most people would consider that the worst kind of whining, and I have to be honest and say I'm in that category.
Ridiculous. We're talking about a scheduled day off. There IS NO valid excuse for requiring an employee to work on a scheduled day off, particularly in an environment like public transit, where the workload is known months in advance and is very unlikely to change with short notice.
The point being made is simply that those who want to work overtime should be allowed to, as much as they want, and that people who don't want to work overtime shouldn't be forced to. I don't see anything to argue with there.
-- Tim
(No excuse -- schedule known far in advance).
Not if a scheduled employee does not show up. The issue is really how many additional employees should the TA have to hire and pay for (but generally not use) in case an employee does not show up.
In the U.S., workers with Civil Service protection tend to have ill health -- they are sick with pay more often than private sector workers. Workers can also show up late for their run. Should the TA have extra TOs with no assigned run just sitting there? Or should it say to someone getting off so and so is late, work OT? That's the question. The TA has probably cut down on the spare staff.
In the U.S., workers with Civil Service protection tend to have ill health -- they are sick with pay more often than private sector workers. Workers can also show up late for their run. Should the TA have extra TOs with no assigned run just sitting there? Or should it say to someone getting off so and so is late, work OT? That's the question. The TA has probably cut down on the spare staff.
OK, a couple of points here.
First of all, thanks -- you brought up a point I hadn't thought of.
But you didn't change my mind about what I said.
Should the TA have extra TOs with no assigned run just sitting there? Of course it should -- but not so much because people sometimes don't show up; the reason is to provide coverage in the event of a service disruption. One of the big problems these days in the Stockholm subway is that there's no reserve capacity when there are service disruptions, so people get stuck rather than being able to get to their destinations.
Or should the TA say to somebody who's just getting off, work OT? Of course it shouldn't -- it should *ask*. BIG HUGE difference. Here, nobody ever tells you you *have* to work OT; they get you on the radio and ask if you can work an hour over, the driver who was supposed to relieve you overslept. And if you can, you do, no big deal. That's the way it should be.
If the TA is going around ordering people to work on their days off, they have every right in the world to be majorly pissed off. It's my understanding that slavery was abolished a number of years ago.
-- Tim
One thing else to keep in mind - TTPFKaMRR46 works in the B division, where policy is to force people to work Overtime on their days off. In the A division, policy is different. Here, workers who are Extra - ie have no picked job - are subject to having their RDOs changed on aweekly basis, subject to the whim of the Crew Office. As a result for the next year or so, I will never know what two days off I'll have in any given week until after 12noon on Friday.Anybody want to plan a life around that?
That's the sort of abuse that it seems fair to address, and a perfect example of how union and management can work together. Surely there's a way to make people available for emergency coverage without screwing up people's lives! It's the difference between getting called in for an occasional emergency as most people do--"Hey, Joe's sick, who can take his shift?"--and not being able to plan your life.
In most of the places I work that's the way things go. People care enough about their jobs to provide coverage if that's what's necessary. But when I was a kid in a union I was splitting a maintenance task with another guy, and he didn't set up the stuff he was supposed to, leaving it for me. When I asked him why, he said "I don't work down there because my head gets cold."
Needless to say, this guy was history as soon as the union was out . . .
"surely there's a way to make people available for emergency coverage"
Reasonable management, yes. This group, NO. When all the extra personnel required to cover KNOWN in advance absenteism are all given THE SAME DAYS OFF, who will cover those jobs?
Crews who are FORCED into overtime, that's who. This is another example of transit mis-management on purpose. They love to create a problem in order to "solve" it. This also provides them the means to harrass conductors. A group currently under attack because management would like to eliminate our jobs, in favor of "broadbanding" whereby conductors and motormen would be assigned each others jobs as management sees fit. Since the conductors vehemently oppose this, were're being punished.
I have a great idea. Rule 45 says employees must know how and when to activate an emergency brake valve. Bulletin 12-15-99 will supercede stating they must be activated on 12-15-99. I will issue one tomorrow. In the meantime an anonymous fog order will do for tonight.
A decent union contract (and to some extent Federal employment laws for hourly workers) mandates graduated pay for overtime. Management doesn't call in employees exessively because it's too expensive. And I've *never* seen management call in an employee when someone else wants the overtime, and there's usually someone who does.
But saying that someone has to be available on two day's notice in case of emergency, with overtime and/or comp time seems to me a more than fair arrangement, no more slavery than telling someone they'll be working Tuesday through Saturday or the evening shift, something every business does.
A decent union contract (and to some extent Federal employment laws for hourly workers) mandates graduated pay for overtime. Management doesn't call in employees exessively because it's too expensive. And I've *never* seen management call in an employee when someone else wants the overtime, and there's usually someone who does.
Your statement contradicts what's been asserted here, I think. The impression I've gotten is that forcing certain employees to work OT that other employees want is common practice.
But saying that someone has to be available on two day's notice in case of emergency, with overtime and/or comp time seems to me a more than fair arrangement, no more slavery than telling someone they'll be working Tuesday through Saturday or the evening shift, something every business does.
On an occasional basis, no -- I agree with you. When it happens frequently, you pretty much have to conclude that the person is being forcibly deprived of his/her scheduled days off. In principle, I think the employer has a responsibility to do everything possible to see to it that employees can enjoy their scheduled days off. Only in a true emergency should employees be *told* to come in on a day off, although in a lesser crisis, of course, there's nothing wrong with asking.
-- Tim
If the system is being abused by management, that's indeed an issue. But then I'd want to know why. In any case it seems to me there are simple remedies, e.g., begin by establishing reasonable limits on time worked to avoid dangerous fatigue, and establishing a pool system whereby those who want to work the overtime are asked first subject to an annual limit and the safety limits (to avoid the $100,000 embarassment).
Josh
As I have stated before, in the current contract talks, management hes outright refused to discuss limiting cab time in any way out side the curent 16 hour limit. The FRA says I can run a freight train with tank cars of LPG, but not after 12 hours. The TA thinks it's OK for me to operate a subway train with actual PEOPLE for 16 hours.
ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzz..............((((((BOOM))))))!!!!!!!!
There exists a list of employees who have signed up to work OT, but they are increasingly passed over because they have reached a point that management has decided is sufficient.
The real soloution is to restore the staffing levels to what they had once been.
But as I have said in my last posts, that's not what the managemnet here is interested in.
If the system is being abused by management, that's indeed an issue. But then I'd want to know why. In any case it seems to me there are simple remedies, e.g., begin by establishing reasonable limits on time worked to avoid dangerous fatigue, and establishing a pool system whereby those who want to work the overtime are asked first subject to an annual limit and the safety limits (to avoid the $100,000 embarassment).
Why shouldn't a transit worker be able to earn $100,000 if he or she really chooses to work that much overtime? It's just the Protestant ethic in full operation; the person has *earned* all that money.
The people who want the OT should get it, and the people who want their days off should get them -- barring a real emergency, of course.
As TTPFK... says in his response, the *real* problem seems to be that employees are *ordered*, not asked, to work OT to cover absences known long in advance. The only proper solution to that problem is to staff at such levels, and work out the shifts in such a way, that this doesn't have to happen.
-- Tim
[As TTPFK... says in his response, the *real* problem seems to be that employees are *ordered*, not asked, to work OT to cover absences known long in advance. The only proper solution to that problem is to staff at such levels, and work out the shifts in such a way, that this doesn't have to happen.]
Forced overtime should not be necessary to cover absenteeism except in very unusual circumstances. An agency as large as the Transit Authority almost certainly can predict daily absenteeism with a high degree of accuracy. As a result, they could ensure that staffing levels will be sufficient to cover all essential positions without forcing OT on reluctant workers. In reality, of course, they don't want to pay for the additional workers - it's cheaper to rely on OT, voluntary or otherwise.
I wrote:
[As TTPFK... says in his response, the *real* problem seems to be that employees are *ordered*, not asked, to work OT to cover absences known long in advance. The only proper solution to that problem is to staff at such levels, and work out the shifts in such a way, that this doesn't have to happen.]
Peter replied:
Forced overtime should not be necessary to cover absenteeism except in very unusual circumstances. An agency as large as the Transit Authority almost certainly can predict daily absenteeism with a high degree of accuracy. As a result, they could ensure that staffing levels will be sufficient to cover all essential positions without forcing OT on reluctant workers.
By George, you're right. :-)
In reality, of course, they don't want to pay for the additional workers - it's cheaper to rely on OT, voluntary or otherwise.
Which is fine until you get to the last two words of your statement. As long as the TA can cover all essential positions without requiring involuntary OT, and as long as that course really is cheaper, then I don't see a problem with doing that.
Why is management apparently so concerned with limiting individual employees' earnings? Was it really *that* big a scandal that someone had made $100,000 in a single year?
-- Tim
It has been common for city employees in a variety of agencies to goldbrick during their regular work period and fail to finish work that had to be done. The work then has to get done during overtime at time-and-a-half. It's almost like you get a reward for working slower. Plus, the less work you do, the more people the agency has to hire.
Obviously, none of this applies to the T/O situation, but appointed officials in public agencies are not exactly rocket scientests. You get a bunch of people appointed by Republicans, and they will try to crack down on union abuses -- even when the don't exist.
A little story. One of my wife's co-workers was hired away from the Federal Reserve by the New York State Banking Department. Since he was more qualified than most of the people there, he was given a quick provisional promotion. All this took place just before Pataki replaced Cuomo as Governor. In an effort to get rid of Cuomo's patronage people (presumably to make room for their own), Pataki's people just fired all recently promoted and hired provisionals.
Word gets around. Only morons and masochists work for the Vampire State. In fact, there is no reason for anyone who is highly employable to work for the government in NYC, unless a particular job they want to do is only available in the public sector.
Hey, Larry -- Vampire State, I LIKE IT :~> :~> :~>
Yup, its a Vampire. Every part of the state thinks money is being sucked of it to somewhere else. And they're right, except for the somewhere else part. The Republican and Democratic insiders cut their little deal, and the rest of use get scalped, then they blame it on each other, and we keep voting the same SOBs in.
Sounds like the Police Department!! I guess all city agencies are the same. I know of cops who got ordered OT while they had plane tickets & Hotel reservations who tried to switch with someone who wanted needed the OT, only to have it get turned down from above because the other person is over the cap. Another thing they do is give OT to rookies because their pay rate is much lower.
Here the TA took the extra board jobs off the pick for precisely the same reason. Old timers used to pick an extra board assignment at the terminal of their choice, and sit there and wait for a job to open. Eventually there would be a job that opened, and they would earn the 8 hours for the job plus any time they sat etxra board.
Since you have the potntial to earn a lot, old guys would pick it just before retirement. So of course TA now has the jobs off the pick, and assigned at will to extra extra crews. Extra extra crews are new hire and make the lowest wages. Saves management cash. Subverts seniority.
My brother works for Long Island Bus and says the extra board there is a very big money maker.
Management WILL call in an employee who does not want the
overtime, and deliberately exclude another who does. The
reason being they want to keep the person who wants the OT
from earning too much.
And they're not telling you to "be available in case of an
emergency" NO, they're telling you: we don't have enough
people to cover these jobs, so you will have to work on
YOUR day off.
If they simply stopped giving everyone the SAME days off
there would be enough people to cover all the jobs.
This is not unexpected, nor an emergency. This is simple
and deliberate abuse of employees.
I see a lot to argue with there. Someone may get sick. There may be an emergency. But mostly, I've *never* worked in an environment where management couldn't ask you to change your schedule in an emergency, even when I was in a union myself. I know of only one case where that didn't work out--soemone who got fired because he refused to come back in after only a couple hours sleep--and the manager who did that to him was herself fired a couple of years later by the Board of Directors because some key employees said it was her or them.
Josh
I know of only one case where that didn't work out--soemone who got fired because he refused to come back in after only a couple hours sleep--and the manager who did that to him was herself fired a couple of years later by the Board of Directors because some key employees said it was her or them.
Sadly, it's this kind of manager that makes either legislation or unions necessary.
-- Tim
Isn't that always the case!
Josh
One more proof that no system is better than the people who run it.
If the money isn't there, then tell me how Mayor Giuliani can find enough money to fund yet another raise for himself and his cronies!!! This time it's an exhorbitant 36% raise!!! We have been asking for a much deserved 30% raise spread out over 3 years! We were duped to believe the TA had a deficit the last time our contract was up. This time we know better! It was by our cooperation that the subway system is much safer & cleaner!!!
The other major issue is the progressive disciplinary procedures! Management wants to shell out the harshest punishment for the smallest of violations! When you get written up, the first penalty they wany is either 30-day suspension, demotion or dismissal!! This is insane! Do you think you could afford a 30 day (30 working days which equals 6 weeks)for such a small offense as not wearing your safety glasses??? This is insane! The punishment don't meet the offenses!
These are only a few of the reasons that we are considering striking.
Think before you strike back at us!
There is well thought out reason why the penalties offered
are no longer 5 or 10 days. Justice is not a concern,
neither is what is morally right, nor the truth. As ussual
with these people, it's the almighty dollar.
Management knows full well, that very few of us can afford
to stay out for 30 WORKING days. That's SIX weeks! So
instead they offer up a deal. You can work off your
suspension at 70% of your full salary. So whether you are
guilty or innocent, to them it won't matter. All they care
about is getting you at a cheap rate. This is why
discipline cases have skyrocketed since this was agreed to
in the last contract. What was meant as a compassionate
soulution to help employees throuh a rough spot, has been
twisted by these cynical bastards into a weapon against
us. Any one who makes the full rate is a target.
Labor Relations is the ONLY department in the Transit
Authority that DOES NOT have a budget. They are allowed to
spend whatever it takes to get YOU.
There are documented cases of them FALSIFYING evidence,
TAMPERING with evidence, SUBBORNING PERJURY, and
WITHOLDING evidence.
And for now, there is nothing anyone can do about it.
For those of you who don't know, let me explain how the
process works. A rule infraction or policy violation is
reported. An investigation by the superintendent
responsile for the location, or line etc. will make an
investagatory report. Mind you in many cases this report
will be biased if in any way there exists a possibility
that somone in authority may be at fault.
This report is then sent to the office of Labor Relations.
There a descision is made whether or not a Disciplinary
Action Notice will be generated. In some cases, if the
stupidintendent is angered enough, the case will get
pushed through, even if there is clear evidence to support
clearing the employee.
The DAN then is served upon the employee, ussually stapled
to his or her check. Here's your pay, thank you. Oh, by
the way, here's a DAN. Just to let you know how much
you're appreciated.
Now, you have to go down to 130 Livingston St. on your OWN
time, for three to five hours. When the Labor Relations
hearing officer finally sees you, they will offer you a
"deal". On the DAN the recomended penalty will be the
maximum they feel they can get out of an arbitrator. I've
seen 30 days for first offenses on guys with spotless 10
year records! The "deal" will be instead of 30 days,
they'll knock it down to, 10 days.
The employee, intimidated by the power of the Authority,
and fearful for his lively hood will accept. Then ask for
the 70% because his family needs to eat. Now Labor
Relations has you. Next time you get in trouble, and you
WILL, they can offer dissmisal as the recomended penalty,
and maybe get 30 days out of you at 70%!
In other departments, this may or may not be going on. But
it IS happening in RTO. With a rule book and standard
operationg procedure set up for you to fail, and with a
supervisor out there for every four employees, sooner or
later, some T.S.S will catch you with your shoes not
shined, or forgetting to say please while making
announcements.
But what, say you, happens if the employee contests the
charges? Good question, here's what:
At step one, the same officer who wrote the case up, and
has already decided that you are guilty will simply send
you to step two. Occasionally, a good union rep can make
such a clear and compelling case, that the labor relations
officer realizes that it can't be justified at step III
and lets it go, or makes a deal. These are most often time
and attendance violations.
At step two, a hearing officer will hear management's case
well before you ever get there. Again on your own time,
you will spend the better part of a day waiting to see
this person. This is an excercise is futility as again,
they have already made up their mind. Being an employee of
labor relations, they ussualy just uphold the step one
descision. Did you really think they would go against
their bosses? Sometimes, these supposed impartial
mediators will actually make management's case for them!
I don't think I have ever heard of a case being reversed
at step two. A kangaroo court and waste of money and time.
So now you go to step 3, an impartial outside arbitrator.
Here management will make it's case, and use whatever
tactics, legal and otherwise to implicate you. How far
they go, depends on how bad they want you.
They will use false evidence, they will bring in
"witnesses", or supervisors and superintendents, who
either have a vested interest in seeing you go down, or in
the interest of self preservation will lie to the
arbitrator. They will alter audio recordings from the
Control Center radio and phone logs. They will
deliberately misplace written reports, or evidence that
supports your case. Wittnesses who are employees of the
Authority will suddenly be "unavailable" if they would
support your case.
And then the arbitrator will make his descision. You will
be notified by mail. When the descision is for suspension,
as it so often is, you will be instructed to return to
Labor Relations. There you will be offered a deal again.
70%, or time off. They do not like it when you take the
time off. They went through all the trouble to get you
cheap, so they will only allow you to take the time off in
one week incriments spread over several months. You'll be
told it's to help you survive the loss of income. The
real reason is they know you'll find another job, and they
don't want to have to hire and train someone new. It's
punishment, and not a vacation to them. So they tell you
that you must take it in seperate intervals. OK, you say.
But they dictate which weeks. They will not allow you to
forfeit vacation, or sick days. They desperately want you
to take the 70%!
So now you leave, knowing you did nothing wrong, and
suffering the penalties nonetheless. It's estimated that
67% of RTO employees have been disciplined at least once
in their carrers. For those who are fortunate enough to
have escaped, either through exemplary behavior or sheer
luck, they have heard and been outraged by their
co-workers stories. Any wonder why there is such poor
morale in RTO.
A strike is coming. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
You are 1000% correct. We both know many involved with this. Brian
I couldn't have said it better myself, Mr. R-46!!!
I wish the public would realize all the BS we have to go through, and would also realize that there are way more issues than just a pay raise at stake here! Remember, in a strike the TA loses money!!!!!!
Actually, the TA makes money in a strike, but lets get back to the issues. These are serious charges. Has anyone tried to sue the TA for unfair labor practices? If labor relations always backs up management, and the arbitrators are poodles, why not go outside?
And what about managers? Are they held accountable for the morale and performance of their employees?
Morale? HAHahahAhAhahHAhahahahahhahA.
Excuse me a moment while I get up off the floor.
Unfortunately, the contract section that addresses
employee rights is written in circles, and actually means
nothing. And unless you can actually PROVE some violation
of the law, court is useless. TA really can do what ever
they want.
"loosing" paperwork isn't a criminal offense. They are
very careful not to actually dicriminate or violate
criminal statutes. Copying a cotrol center tape in a poor
manner doesn't neccesarily mean they "tampered" with it.
Even though it may now be totally useless in defending an
employee. The deck is trully stacked in their favor, and
since these people have no honor or shame, what can you
do?
Occasionaly someone who's got a real good case will sue.
Even less often do they win. TA has over SEVEN HUNDRED
lawyers on staff. They will grind you down in a flood of
motions to dismiss, orders to show cause, adjounments, and
appeals that in the intervening years you will have gone
broke. Hence my saying: MTA; resistance is futile. Negotiation is irrelevant. they're like the Borg, unstoppable outside of extrodinary means.
This is yet another reason why we feel morally justified
to strike. And believe me, one is coming. Be afraid. be
very afraid.
hello i need info on what study material is out there for the upcoming train operator's exam and where can i get them.
Call the office of The Chief, the civil service news. They should have a book with past exams with the answers. Brian
i can't hearing any head honchos getting their heads chopped off for any minor infractions lately but if the rank and file are getting their share of the bull why shouldn't the managers also? fair is fair right? I don't see managers getting harassed the way everyone else is? why run a system well by treating employees fairly which will increase MORALE and PRODUCTIVITY and EMPLOYEE AVAILABILITY. It seems its easy to harass & intimidate than to make employees feel valuable to the good of the service we have to make the line managers and the MTA BORED(purposefully mispelled opps i'm an illiterate as the DAILY NEWS REPORTED)look good instead of the real issues. Working for TA used to be a great deal but now if you've scratched your ass the wrong way your written up suspended if not terminated. IT seems COMMOM SENSE is lacking at the top not to mention the explosion of personnel numbers of FOLKS supposedly doing something productive for the MTA yeah sure...
If they strike, will someone sue (Straphangers?) the TWU and the MTA for the cost of their Metrocards and lost wages (because people can't get to work), because a strike will be an illegal action?
What was the last public employees union in NYC to go on strike? What was the fallout from it? I can't think that it was 1980.
-Hank
I don't think there has been a strike in the city since 1980. In the 1980s, when the city was flush, city workers got raises well in excess of inflation. In the 1990s, when the city was broke, the unions agreed to lower wages in exchange for no layoff guarantees. Now the city is flush again. We'll see.
It is in a way unfortunate that NYCTS is not under FRA.
On a Real Rail Road, discipline is harsh but fair.
Is there actual evidence of command center transcript tapes
being tampered with and falsified?
Oh absolutely. On one case I'm working on now, they didn't
use a tape to tape deck. They placed two recorders on a
table side by side! That way the ambient noise would drown
out the background conversation I needed to prove my case.
A Control Center stupidintendent refused to get a police
officer for a conductor who was being assaulted. He
actually said: "I'm not done talking to you yet. I'll
think about calling the police when we're finished"
The voice of the train operator threatening to assault the
conductor should have been plainly audible on the tape.
The conductor said that the phone recciever had been
deliberatly held at arms length to capture the
conversation on the tape. So in order to justify the
actions of the supt, the tape was fudged. He claimed he
thought the caller was exaggerating.
There were witnesses as well. Do you know their G2 reports mysteriously can no longer be found?
I interviewed them, a Dispatcher, and Tower Operator. They both back the Conductor's story. But funny. They are "not available" for testimony. I can talk to them on my time. But TA will not allow them to testify at the arbitration hearing. So I will have to subpeona them.
The train operator? He was written up. He was given a warning. The conductor? They wanna give him TWENTY DAYS!
Whitstle blower law applies here, and the law suit will be filed as soon as the disciplinary case has run out.
I have many, many more stories like this one. I don't want to overload the server with them though. You get the point. But any transit worker knows. We all hear these stories on a daily basis.
A strike is coming. And it is morally justified. Be afraid. Be very afraid.
"There are documented cases of them FALSIFYING evidence,
TAMPERING with evidence, SUBBORNING PERJURY, and
WITHOLDING evidence. "
It is truly sad to say this but I have seen just such acts (perpetrated by the people in Policy Compliance). Last year i was called in as part of an investigation about a Supervisor who was accused of Gross Misconduct. I had no specific knowledge about the acts with which he was accused. Despite this, I was asked about a disciplinary case over which I presided. I did have a vague recollection of this case although it was not outstanding by any means and was over a year in the past. I was not permitted to see the documents involved but was ultimately accused of working in conjunction with the subject supervisor because I upheld the charges and recommended penalty. However:
1) At step I in the disciplinary process - the recommended penalty is dictated by the employee's past record in accordance with the policy of progressive discipline.
2) The subject supervisor was not the person who initiated the disciplinary action. In fact his name was never a part of the write up.
I was asked to comment on a non-existant incident and accused of aiding this supervisor in his 'Gross Misconduct'. When I brought this to the Assistant Chief Mechanical officer's attention, I was told to forget it. Based on my experience with these people (as a manager) I can easily believe what you say.....
Take the derailment in 1997 where the southbound A train took two switches at the same time at 135 Street. In the first news report the TA blamed signal maintainer for the accident. In the first internal report, the TA found a faulty relay, similar to the cause of the Franklin Av collision a couple of weeks later, might have contributed. At the signal maintainer's arbitration hearing, one foreman admited under oath that he was coerced to change testimony and statement of facts. How many of them are out there that are hiding the truth at the expence of hourly employees? We don't have the resources to fight the MTA as they have unlimited staffs of taxpayer fed lawyers who are paid to drag cases on until we quit or die. Very few violation actually make it to Supreme Court as most are tied up in Appeals. Even when we are proven right, we are still wrong.
The night of the derailment at 135th st i was operating a northbound D train and there were maintainers in the area. I've heard rumors before the derailment even occured that the switches in the area have a problem of moving all on their own! 59 tower had knowledge of this and well if anything was done correct the alledged problem we'll never know since everything down here always works perfectly according management. Its always easier to admit to HUMAN ERROR since all our EQUIPMENT works as designed SURE!
That was undoubtably the reason why a maintainer was framed in the derailment. It was easier to blame the one in the area than to blame the signal relay itself. Enclosed on the bottom is a link from the NY Post confriming the plot of the NYCTA to hang innocent personel at the expense of protecting the relationship between fat politicians and the top heavy MTA bureacrats.
http://www.unionism.com/roberts.htm
(Managers pin blame on workers not parts).
When it comes to blame, however, you have to factor in the fact that we live in a blame culture. There are no tradgedies and accidents, only negligence and conspiracy. This is particularly the case in the public sector. When was the last time you heard about a public official getting in trouble for what he or she DIDN'T do. CYA and blame the other guy.
Not that I want to end the transit labor discussion and start blasting the lawyers and media again, but....
Blaming is easy and fun to do if you are the NYCTA who by taking a 30% cut out of your pay can save money by doing so. However there is a fine line between blaming and fraudulently scapegoating innocent employees to cover for management errors. Lying under oath is contemt of court which will land you in jail. Why does the government or MTA get away with this crime while lower level employees are stripped of their passes? Because the people over their heads can let them and because the people below them, the voters, believe the "officials" when they say WE are the cheats. We knew Bill Clinton was a crook, we re-elected him anyway. We know the fare will go up but we are too concerned about illiterate train operators and Jerry Springer to look at concerns of serious issue. Society deserves what we get.
A maint. manager I once wokred with had as a moto was "Fix the problem not the blame"
Its always easier to admit to HUMAN ERROR since all our EQUIPMENT works as designed SURE!
After all, if accidents were caused by faulty equipment, the public wouldn't feel safe on the subway. As long as its human error, and the "responsible" party is dealt with (or should I say, becomes the sacrificial lamb), everyone feels safe riding the subway. Now, everybody (except the innocent employee) is happy. Isn't dirty politics, abuse and misuse of authority wonderful?! Boss Tweed, move over. These creeps may not be lining their pockets (as much), but they're just as dishonest.
(Boss Tweed move over)
A bit off topic, speaking of Boss Tweed, did you all see that the Tweed Courthouse, which he used to fleece the city, has cost $80 million to fix up and they are not through yet? It is a landmarked piece of garbage. If there was ever a poster-child for preservation gone amuck, this is it. It should have been knocked down, but its like the Manhattan Bridge -- they pour money in, have more problems, but since the've already poured so much in they pour more money in, etc. Ugh.
Ah, so there's yet another money pit besides the Manhattan Bridge, huh?
[A bit off topic, speaking of Boss Tweed, did you all see that the Tweed Courthouse, which he used to fleece the city, has cost $80 million to fix up and they are not through yet? It is a landmarked piece of garbage. If there was ever a poster-child for preservation gone amuck, this is it. It should have been knocked down, but its like the Manhattan Bridge -- they pour money in, have more problems, but since the've already poured so much in they pour more money in, etc. Ugh.]
Is it really a white elephant? The accounts I've read claim it was a good though ridiculously costly building.
Back in the days of Boss Tweed, when they spent money you at least
got as courthouse out of it. Now, in the Twentieth Century, they have
discovered tht the best way to keep a flow of money goimng is never
to accomplish anythiung so more work is always needed. But I didn't
realize that the original Tweed Courthouse itself could serve as an
example. How much did they spend building it in 1999 Dollars?
The courthouse cost "four times as much as the Houses of Parliament and twice the price of Alaska," according to Wallace and Burrows in "Gotham."
God only knows what they're spending on renovating the place now.
[Now, in the Twentieth Century, they have
discovered tht the best way to keep a flow of money goimng is never
to accomplish anythiung so more work is always needed.]
My favorite example of that is all the years they spent not choosing a cable system for Queens. The local pols were getting $1 million/year "consulting fees" from the competing cable companies, and were understandably reluctant to kill the goose.
[If the money isn't there, then tell me how Mayor Giuliani can find enough money to fund yet another raise for himself and his cronies!!! This time it's an exhorbitant 36% raise!!! We have been asking for a much deserved 30% raise spread out over 3 years! We were duped to believe the TA had a deficit the last time our contract was up. This time we know better! It was by our cooperation that the subway system is much safer & cleaner!!!
The other major issue is the progressive disciplinary procedures! Management wants to shell out the harshest punishment for the smallest of violations! When you get written up, the first penalty they wany is either 30-day suspension, demotion or dismissal!! This is insane! Do you think you could afford a 30 day (30 working days which equals 6 weeks)for such a small offense as not wearing your safety glasses??? This is insane! The punishment don't meet the offenses!]
The money that goes to high officials is a tiny portion of the budget, which for NYC alone is $37 billion, and as always government pays its high officials much less than they would earn in private life. It's a good sound bite, but it doesn't really effect the whole financial picture, which is if not dismal at least dark.
I agree that a 30 day suspension for not wearing safety glasses is ridiculous, but I'd have to see the whole progressive discipline picture to reach any personal conclusions about what's fair. I suspect that they're just trying to find a way to fire people, something that's very hard to do in most union/civil service situations. When I was in a union it was all they could manage to fire a guy who was sabotaging stuff; there were some guys who were incompetent, lazy, or stole stuff, and they couldn't be touched. My personal favorite--a bald guy who refused to do his job in one area because it was heavily air conditioned and his head got cold! This same guy, who was supposed to be a technician maintaining state of the art electronic equipment, called me up at 3 AM one night to ask a technical question, and when I told him to put the phone on hold he said in broken English "I do not know how to put phone on hold" . . .
Believe me. That problem doesn't exist in RTO! Out of the less than 7,500 conductors, tower operators, and train operators, we on average loose about 32 a month to termination. That's one a day! I have gone home from the union office depressed as hell on occasion, after seeing poeple being escorted out of the building like criminals. Most times for menial offenses, that got lost in procedural mixups, or worse. A management type who had it in for them. And there is precious little I or any other union rep can do most of the time. Sure. Some idiots deserve to be fired. I see that a lot less though. What's amazing is that those who I see who should be fired, almost never do!
Read my post on "excessive discipline" to understand the TA's "plantation justice"
[Some idiots deserve to be fired. I see that a lot less though. What's amazing is that those who I see who should be fired, almost never do!]
I've seen that often enough in poorly run organizations. In a well run one, firings correlate pretty closely with performance. But I reached the conlusion many years ago that I'd much rather work for an organization where people can be/are fired at will. Why? Because firings do seem to be related more closely to performance--and because where they aren't, because an employee has a conflict with his boss, the people who get fired inevitably show up with smiles on their faces once they get new jobs. Fighting a boss, however bad, is a personally taxing, losing proposition; even if you're justified or you have the organization's best interests in mind, management tends to close behind its own ranks.
I can relate to that. Back when I was laid off from IBM, after 16+ years there (and being a second-generation IBMer at that - my father retired in 1989 after 39+ years) it was as absolutely devastating experience. But now, five-plus years later, I'm in a much more satisfying job with better pay and nearly equivalent benefits, and I don't really understand why I stayed around that place as long as I did (misplaced loyalty, I guess). So yes, I'm smiling :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's the thing. Mr. R46 presents the labor issue as harsh, abusive and inconsistent discipline, coupled with a demeaning attitude by management toward the workforce. If that's the case, members of the riding public would be sympathetic, but that's not what the general public knows about.
What most members of the public do know about (the TA is a big organization, and most people know someone or know someone who knows someone who worked there) is the ripoff days of 1965-85, when workers who got paid more than you do worked less than you do, showed up drunk routinely, blew off work constantly, with zero accountability.
Let me give you an example. When the TA started doing preventive maintenance, it started ordering these "kits" with all the parts to be replaced (HSO kits). Let's say a worker didn't feel like replacing all the parts, hoping that some of the old parts would last a while before the bus broke down on the road. If the unused parts were lying around, it would be clear that the job wasn't done, so the workforce threw the unused parts away! (I was working for Materiel at the time). You'd find brand new, $2,000 parts in the trash!
My wife's grandfather was a painter with the TA, and a member of the TWU. When the public takeover occurred in 1940, he said, the worst of the workers knew exactly what that meant, and immediately practically stopped working. The quality of work went downhill fast, and then everybody got out with a fat pension.
Now you've had a big turnover of personnel at the TA since the bad old days, and chances are few of those out there today were responsible for the abuses. And, no surprise, the trains are getting fixed and showing up on time. So, management has a lot of credibility when it comes to discipline -- people just assume that workers are just being asked to do a good job like the rest of us, and workers who had it cushy just resent being in the same boat we are.
So, if as you say, things have become nasty and unfair, the TWU has a PR problem, and it isn't doing much about it. I get one idea of the issues reading your posts, but a very different idea reading the papers. To the average person, its about a 30 percent raise with 30 sick days and less dicipline (presumably so you don't have to be sick to take your sick days). Reading you're posts, it makes it seem that having cracked down on lousy workers 15 years ago, we now have to crack down on lousy managers.
You'd think if there really are all these unfair and abusive practices, the TWU could print up a million or so pamphlets documenting them and have off duty members pass them out near bus and subway stations. After all, what are all those dues for anyway?
I have to agreee with you. Very accurate assesment Larry.
I have been avoiding menton of the fact that our union is
corrupt and there is a distinct possibility that the
reason the Authority has the nerve to put forth those
outrageous demands was that they own Willie James.
Our Local president has been strangly absent from the
media. Sandra Feldman, and Doc Savage are well known by the public, but almost no one knows slick Willie.
Many of the injustices perpatrated against us by
management go unchallenged. There was a laughable attempt
at a media campaign. The union itself is divided in it's
ranks, between the corrupt James, and Sonny Hall behind
him, and the New Directions caucus. A group of
socialist/communist activists, who although they speak
well,
because of their politics have never been able to seize
control of the Local.
A house divided cannot stand, and ours is in danger of
falling. How can we fight an abusive management when our
own union undercuts any meaningful change?
The days of a goldbricking transit worker are long past.
Working for the TA in one of the hourly titles has really
become like McDonalds. Management has robbed us of our
proffesionalism through cuts in training. They have robbed
us of our pride through exessive discipline, and robbed us
of any solidarity through the whole sale puchase of our
union. Management knows exactly how to defeat us, because most of the mid level and many of the senior management personnel came up through the ranks. They still have conections among the union staff. For God's sake, the union V.P. for RTO is married to a Supt. from Labor Relations! Talk about conflict of interest! She gets a union car, a Ford Crown Victoria. But since she doesn't have a drivers license, a Labor Relations Supt. is driving around in a car our union pays for! God that pisses me off. But I am but one lone voice in the night. The vast majority of transit workers feel as I do, and Willie knows this time he may not be able to control it. This is why I predict a strike.
The structure of the TWU is inherrently divided. How does
a single Local organizarion purport to represent such
diverse needs as a bus driver and a station cleaner and a
conductor. That's how we lost on OPTO. The local made a
deal to prevent the layoffs of some RR stock handlers and
Transit Property Protection Agents. Then it turned out the
TA wasn't really broke, and they never had intended laying
off anyone.
I post the injustices here, all alone, in the hopes that
if a strike does come to be, the folks here at SubTalk
understand the reasons why. The media will always make it
a money issue, it sells papers. You guys know the truth.
If a strike happens, WIllie James is the guy who orders workers off the job. I just don't see him doing it because, as you infer, we have a company union. Also, he will not risk losing the dues checkoff thereby making it necessary for his underlings to collect the union dues in the field. I remember this from 1980. I don't see a wildcat strike either. I think the people of RTO and surface are the most vocal in the union, yet I think car equipment for example will not go along. Read the New Directions' Flyers with the Executive Board reports. When Willie loses, he overrules them and does what he wants to do anyway. And he tells his detractors: "If you don't like it, go to the International." Now whose side do you think Sonny Hall will be on??? As long as Willie and his pals are in there, I throw in the towel. Nothing will happen till the present union leadership is gone.
[So, if as you say, things have become nasty and unfair, the TWU has a PR problem, and it isn't doing much about it. I get one idea of the issues reading your posts, but a very different idea reading the papers. To the average person, its about a 30 percent raise with 30 sick days and less dicipline (presumably so you don't have to be sick to take your sick days). Reading you're posts, it makes it seem that having cracked down on lousy workers 15 years ago, we now have to crack down on lousy managers.]
Well said. It's not just the TWU that suffers from such problems--I think the union movement in general has suffered grievous damage from the perception, fostered by real abuses, that unions are about featherbedding and sloth rather than good wages and safe working conditions.
It think there's also a least common denominator thing that goes on in union situations. It's difficult to fire even the most incompetent employees, so management has to divise all sorts of work rules to "document" their offenses, and these become bureaucratic and subject to abuse as they apparently have in the case of the TA.
Agreed.
I worked for New York and Atlantic Railway before I came here. The union there was effective, but then again, if you screwed up, you also got what you deserved.
That's all we are looking for here: justice, even handedness. But true, it's like banging your head against a wall.
lets go to another venue pro sports players hmm nothing all to safety sensitive in their positions they PLAY a sport but it is still work right? they PROVIDE ENTERTAINMENT and make PROFIT for the people who sponsor the team and the players are rewarded more then handsomely. There is nothing essentially provided by a ball player earning 10 - 20 million a year are they patrolling your streets and putting criminals away? are they educating oour children? are they putting out fires rescuing people in building collapses or car accidents? I'm forgetting alot of others since they're too many to mention BUT when it comes to giving the average civil service worker a wage or benefit increase even a retirement improvement everyone gets a titty attack! whys that?
As i've said before i you feel we make that much for than you do in your miserable job come into the light CIVIL SERVICE jobs are plenty most jobs provide descent wages and benefits while others are just okay to eek by on. On the other hand if your job is so horrible why are you still working for them anyhow?
I didn't say you make more than me. I was talking about the way the typical subway rider, who makes a lot less than you do, views unions and the TWU. When more people were in unions there was a degree of brotherhood between workers, but that's not true anymore. There's also a feeling that union guys don't pull their fair share, that unions are corrupt, etc.
Personally, I think the spread between high and low incomes in this country is obscene, though I don't think unions are a practical way to deal with it anymore, or that it can be done in one place like NYC and not in others, because businesses and taxpayers leave the expensive unionized area. Guys who are making minimum wage just can't afford to pay guys who are making much more.
(I work for a financial institution, and we aren't allowed to have a union).
Federal Reserve? That's the deal where my wife works. Then again, she gets paid more than I do.
Not the Fed. I work for one of the Big 3 (at the moment anyway).
"At this time the contract allows them to schedule employees to have seperate days off. Like Tuesday and Friday."
I don't have my copy of the CBA handy but I think you are in error here. I think it specifically mandates 2 consecutive days off. Some of your other points are quite valid, however.
Steve, I come out to the road on Dec 21 (TUE) as a T/O. This means I should have off Sun 12/19 and Sat 12/25. We were told on the first day of training, however, NOT to count on having 12/25 off. And, of course, who knows what the crew office will do to us the following week.
If you come out on the road on a Tuesday and you are not in school on Monday, then I would assume that you had Sunday/Monday RDOs for that week. If that be the case, you will likely be working on Saturday (x-mas). Just a matter of fact, the TA will celebrate Christmas on Friday 12/24. By the way - good luck!!!!
I guess I didn't make myself very clear. I have Sun as an RDO, a road practical on Mon and am released to the Crew Office on Tues. This theoretically implies getting Sat as my second RDO of the week. However, the class was told not to expect that.
GOOD LUCK!! BRIAN
The sections of the contract pertaining to Motormen and
Conductors (3.1, 3.2) simply states that employees shall
have two days off in every seven without pay. Nothing
more.
It can be interpreted as being split, because when you go
to school car or other such changes of assignments,
Saturday and Sunday are given. BUT as Sunday then MTWThF
and THEN Saturday. The following week you go back to the
T/W crap you had before, in effect giving only one day
off.
At joint management union meetings in the past we have
been threatened with split days for extra-extra list
personnel. Thursday then Saturday for example. It was just
a scare tactic and they didn't follow through, BUT there
trully is nothing to stop them if they chose to do it at
this time. Which is why we want the contractual language specified. And precisely why they refuse to even discuss it.
Very interesting. I must check the 'Schedule of working conditions' for DCE tomorrow.
You'd think changing ridership patterns would be making the schedule issue easier. With the high peaking during the system's decline, lots of T/Os were needed at rush hour but not at other times. The quesiton was who was going to take that loss, the taxypayer, by paying people to sit around, or the T/Os, by being forced to work a split shift. Now due to off-peak ridership gains (and perhaps rush hour equipment shortages) the peak-base difference is not as great. Heck, these days I can't get a seat on the way to pick up my kids at 2:00 p.m.!
many good points. However, I would point out a few things here. Number one; don't be too sure about the contract going down in flames. RTO has not ratified a contract in years. It is always shoved down our throats by other departments. The last one was defeated by RTO by a rather lopsided vote, but we are still living with it today. Second, why should other departments (i.e. surface, station, car equip, ect, even care about us, as long as they get something they want? Such as the infamous no-layoff clause when TA wanted to bring in the wep workers? In the better than a decade that I have spent in this company and union, One thing has become abundantly clear to me. As long as car-cleaners and bus drivers, ect vote on our contract, we will not get a fair deal. This is not to say that they are our enemies. But rather that they have thier own interests to consider, as do we. I beleive that it is just as bad to have us voting on thier contracts for the same reason. We don't know thier whole situation, and they don't know ours. Do bus operators want to strike when they have gotten what they want, but we are getting shafted? No, they will of course vote on a contract that serves thier best interests, as would we. The real soloution here is not to stick together, but indeed, to split apart into seperate unions that will look after each departments best interests. Then to suport each other metro-north style. With al thier differing unions, the weakest and least important of them can still shut down the rail-road, BECAUSE the stronger unions will respect the weaker unions picket lines. Remember, all ta has to do to screw us is to get a majority of ratifying votes. it is easier to satisfy the cleaners than it is to satisfy us. As far as hour of service go, it may interest you all to know that if you call CC and say that you are fatigued, they WILL send you home. Perhaps to see the dr. next work day, but then they still have to pay you for the day, AND find someone to work your job. If you ork PM's and they make you go to the clinic at 8 am, call fatiuge or insufficent rest again when you report for work, because you had to be up a 6 to see their Dr, but now you have to be to work again at 4. I know personally that this works.Another thng that can be easily done is to take matters out of TA's hands. If enough of us write to the NTSB regarding forced overtime at unsafe hours, AND BACK IT UP WITH FACTS, the govt will take an interest, And TA does NOT want that to happen. If you REALLY want to shake everybody up, let's see what happens if we all try to solicit The Brotherhod of Locomotive Engineers to represent RTO. The union will get on the ball before they risk all that RTO dues money. And if they don't, Well, the BLE is still there, and so are many other unions like the teamsters. I for one would be willing to kick in a sizable sum to a lawyer who could help in this. There are many grounds to dump TWU. Not the least of them is for failure to represent, or conflict of interest. it might also not be a bad idea to start a probe of the union funds (Where has all our dues money gone?) as well as high level union officers finances.
CJ
(Dump the TWU).
At least you don't have DC37. When you're in a union, the workers with the most skill/responsibility get paid less than they would otherwise, and those with the least responsibility get paid more.
The TA/City could privatize the bus system and station maintenance tomarrow. There are lots of people out there who drive and repair heavy road vehicles, and lots of people who clean buildings.
When they say the TWU doesn't deserve more money because the TA only covers 60 cents on a dollar, they are only half right. The subway is doing much, much better. Not only that, but it will soon be possible to run the trains with fewer people, as automated signaling allows more OPTO and fewer tower operators, and metrocard machines permit fewer station personnel. That means, the subway revenues will be supporting fewer workers, who can then be paid more. Rising ridership contributes to the funds available.
So if there was no TWU, the bus system would be privatized, even more operations would be automated, and the remaining subway workers who ride and repair the trains and equipment would make more money. No wonder the votes work the way they do.
DC37 combines professional and clerical employees. As in other organizations, the clerical employees have been replaced by word processing, voice mail, etc. and do almost no work. Unlike the private sector, they have not all been simply fired. Their absenteeism is high, their skills are low, and their attitude is not good. Some see the writing on the wall, and are trying to get into more complicated work, but they are victims of the NYC schools. They vote for the contracts, and the professionals (who earn less than the private sector) vote no.
At best, it seems to me that the TWU is buying time. With transverse cabs, metrocard machines, and automation, most of the subway system employees are on the way to being obsolete. The remaining critical employees will be the skilled trades, and it's just not to their advantage to be in a union with station cleaners, or for that matter in a union at all.
If the TWU wants to remain viable for more than a few years more, it seems to me it will have to depart from traditional goals and tactics, and concentrate on the ones that benefit both its membership and the region. But that's not what I see here; what I see is old fashioned bellicosity.
I pondered that factor a year back and thought how better represented we would be if all our titles were governed by a separate union, ie the BLE or UTU in place for the LIRR and other railroads. We wouldn't have to worry about stepping on the other union's toes come rulebook and contract negotiation. Train operators realistically CAN'T make the money the railroad engineers do if a cleaner is making over $12 dollars an hour.
I don't agree that the TWU has been irresponsible. Its current leadership has staked its reputation on the argument that doing a good job and attracting passengers is better for the workers in the long run. There are many in the union who want to go back to the goldbrick days of old. If management does not reward the workers for their good work, it will be a management error, pure and simple.
I get the (purely unscientific) impression that there's a gap between the union leadership and at least some among its membership. Not the first time that's happened.
Overall, it seems to me (again on the basis of inadequate information) that the union will have to go further if it wants to protect the wages and benefits of its members. There's no reason anymore for conductors, motormen and token clerks, though some new jobs will be created as these jobs disappear. If it isn't already, the union should be working to ensure that its members will be protected in the transition, embracing and encouraging change in return for mutually agreed upon protection for its workers. Otherwise, when they're jobs are no longer necessary, they'll just lose the battle, as newspaper employees have.
And they should move away from the rust belt no one can be fired constant screaming match between management and employees philosophy too. It does no one any good, except for the few lazy or incompetent employees who live off the labor of their fellows.
Josh
[And they should move away from the rust belt no one can be fired constant screaming match between management and employees philosophy too. It does no one any good, except for the few lazy or incompetent employees who live off the labor of their fellows.]
Interesting phrase :-) Although I've never worked in a union environment, my impression is that the bad labor-management relationship you describe is a more or less unavoidable consequence of a unionized workplace. In other words, it's not really anything specific to transit _per se_.
Just a curious question about the transit unions. o supervisors have their own unions or labor organizations? In the Police Dept there is the Sergeant's Benevolent Assn, The Lieutenant's Benev. Assn, and the Superior Officers Benev. Assn for Captains. This way at contract time all the rank and file are represented. Cops and supervisors. Are there organizations like that in transit?
The Subway and Surface Supervisors Association. SSSA represents the dispatchers, yard masters, motor instructors, etc. Their contracts make TWU's look like a mob contract form the Jimmy Hoffa days. At this time they are working without a contract, and have voted against the last one presented to their membership. TA wants to ram down their thoat some really obscene stuff. So if we walk, they would possibly follow suit.
It's certainly the rule rather than the exception, but I don't know if it's inevitable--some companies have at least tried to turn it around, e.g. GM's Saturn division.
I think the only organizations with happy employees are those with big, fat, stock options. One thing about union/civil service jobs is that pay depends on seniority, not on how good a job you do. And, pay is low, pensions are high, and pensions are defined benefit, meaning you lose big time if you leave early but cash in if you stay around.
Upshot? Employees who are miserable moan but don't leave, because they would earn less elsewhere and lose their pension.
Also, managers earn less in the public sector, and are much less good at working with people. The situation described -- manager drives out good employees and gets fired -- could never happen in the government. Bad managers can't be fired. And even if they could, with what you're paying, the replacement wouldn't be any better. Unless you get lucky, you end up being managed by a power hungry lunatic, or the brother in law of a politico
True. On the other hand, a union can lose all power by becoming too fragmented: the operators don't support a strike by the cleaners, then the maintenance guys don't support a strike by the operators, etc. It's a difficult quandary and I don't know that there's an ideal solution.
TPFKA, do you think the TA is trying to provoke a strike?
Transit system shuts down. People get more angry at the employees than at management--just human nature, sorry, especially in these days when so few people are union members.
TA uses this public anger to soften up the situation for a) fare increase (it's the union's fault), b) more OPTO, other strong-arm concessions, c) possible threats of dismissal,
In all honesty it doesn't take much to get the riding public angry at TA employees. Today, my class of T/Os went down the road on a 2. While waiting for my turn, I was observing the platform as we made station stops. With a NOT IN SERVICE sign on the front end and the side signs in the middle, and an empty train (except for the 12 of us) at noon in midtown,it was absolutely amazing how many people found it necessary to curse, flip the finger and attack the train because they couldn't get on. One gentleman - and I use the term loosely - actually found it necessary to do all three. While I can sort of understandbeing upset at a light train, was it necessary to do this? If we had been learning some other job that might have inconvenienced this guy, would we have been subject to the same treatment? If we can get pulled out of service on the passenger's say-so, why can't we expect them to be taken away when they attack us, on our say-so?
I have seen this many times. People seem to think that they have the right to be rude, obnoxious or outright vulgar. A few weeks ago, a southbound D train was vandalized. I happened to be riding it and heard the conductor call on the radio stating that several pieces of glass had been knocked out in the 7th car. He was told by Control Center to discharge is customers and run light while isolating the car. Rather than doing that, I told the conductor to hold his doors and I asked everyone in that car to move to another car. It was clear as to why people were being asked to move but at least a half dozen needed to make a comment about the F****NG TA. This was despite the fact that I was working to keep the train in service.
"Rude,obnoxious or outright vulgar". Selfish too. This is typical of the behavior experienced by operating people on a daily basis.
Some years ago,I worked as a PATH Conductor for a brief period. During the PM rush,a passenger suffered a severe heart attack. Naturally,the train was held to await EMS while several passengers and a Police Officer performed CPR. Even though they were fully aware of a life or death situation taking place,a small minority of passengers were not above making moronic remarks such as you mentioned. One even demanded that the person be carried off the train so as "not to delay the rest of us"!
(Small number of passengers demanding that a sick passenger be carried off).
That happened on a train my wife was on once. The rest of the passengers became enraged and shouted the "nasty" and "selfish" passengers down. Unless you like Rudyism, throwing people in jail for being A-holes is not an option. But a little social condemnation goes a long way toward ensuring civil behavior.
I'll play devil's advocate for a moment and take the passengers' side of the argument. Why can't the EMTs remove the patient from the train as soon as the patient is stabilized? Sure, in a case where they are performing CPR that's going to take a while, so the train is going to have to stay put, but in a non-life-and-death situation they don't seem willing to remove the patient to the platform either, even when the patient is ambulatory. I will never complain about a stopped train when that is what it takes to save someone's life, but I don't like the idea of being delayed simply because someone slipped and stubbed their little toe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can see your point,but I'm not sure what EMS procedure requires before permitting movement of a patient. Perhaps someone with expertise in that area can enlighten us.
OTOH,I think it's the height of selfishness for someone who KNOWS that their injury is minor to sit on a train and claim that they can't be moved thereby: 1)Delaying 1000 people unnecessarily 2)Tying up an EMS unit and crew that could be better used elsewhere. I've seen it happen. IMHO the motive is to get documentation for a potential lawsuit.
Lawsuits are the reason no-one moves. Only by acting with total disregard for the needs of everyone but one person can the TA avoid a lawsuit.
I had a man under my train on eighth avenue a few years ago. He was cut in two. While I was going into my shock ritual after viewing the body, this jerkoff in the car screamed down to me from between cars "hey, mister, if he is dead, why can't we go downtown". My anger is not pointed at passengers when we talk of striking but I realize that the lack of emotional and political support from straphangers is pitting us against not only the MTA but the people who ride on our system. I think of this guy who wanted to go to Broadway-Nassau at all costs, the costs of the life of the man under, the counseling I didn't get because my employer doesn't wish to provide me for the tremendous burden I have become to the widow of the deceased and my family. Our backs are against everyone in NYC. We get no sympathy from bureacrats, the riding public and the MTA. Our lives become ruined quickly down in hell and because of my anger and depression caused by this one person, I have difficulty in assisting a train crew the way Steve claims he did. I would have assisted the conductor in discharging the train and KEEPING it out of the hands of the vandals who took it out of service in the first place. They really didn't want to ride the train anyway.
Harry, perhaps you are not aware but the TA gives virtually unlimited stress comp. time for operators involved in 12-9s. If you need it and don't get it I'd suggest that you contact the TWU safety committee. As for assisting in an 'emergency', some do and some don't. Some do not do it all the time. Several weeks ago I heard of a train laying down south of 125th St. The first two cars were dark indicating a battery problem but the crew had not begun to handle the situation properly (a la move the customers to lit cars). I figured that based on how long the train had been there I'd be writing letters all day if I stopped to help. So I looked into my bag and when I found I didn't have my safety vest I didn't get off and help. Sometimes the system does work against itself.....
Sorry to hear about your 12-9;I can imagine that it was a nerve wracking experience. And certainly,this one moron's remarks didn't help any. But bear in mind that this was only one person out of several hundred. Unfortunately,it's those few morons that you tend to remember and not the thousands that you've safely carried over the course of your career.
Re: Public opinion of Transit Workers: Seems to me that we only read about transit workers after accidents and at contract time and then,only the TA's side. TWU's Public Relations efforts seem nonexistent. A little positive "spin" on the union's part couldn't hurt.
It's not just the unionwho, in general, wouldn't recognize a good train crew, unless they were staunch supporters of the in crowd. In general, no one ever wants to print to a story that might want to hint that those of us working in the subway might actually be good at what we do. You all remember the day The News called us "functional illiterates"? That same day they ran a story about the two Bus Operators who won the local Surface Operator's Rodeo. Anybody ever see the story about the CR and TO that won back in April forthe RTO Rodeo. They were invited but didn't show up.
Yeeeesh Harry. All I do is pay my fares, pay my taxes (more than anyone outside the city pays), and earn less than you do. I could recite my long train of rage against a couple of transit workers who screwed me over by not showing up for my shift one X-mas, but its not your fault. And whoever that asshole was, it isn't my fault. With that "screw all the passengers" attitude, you should get a job on the LIRR.
Larry, are you taking the Open Competive Train Operators test?
(Am I taking the TOs test).
That's a good question. I'm sick of sitting at my desk and getting nothing done, I could earn more money, and I love the trains.
But no, I don't plan to take the test. For one thing, I feel a need to find some way to pay society back for my education.
For another, I'm not sure I have the concentration to keep my eyes on the road, generally for no reason, shift after shift, week after week, year after year, so that the one time it matters I'll be able to take action. Although I've never been in an accident, I'm not the best driver out there. The saving grace is that I generally only drive off peak, in daylight, on the highway out of town.
Same thing with teaching. In theory I could go for that licenses and earn more (per hour) than today, but I don't assume that I could keep my cool with 28 screaming kids, half of whom are loud boys. I have enough trouble with two girls.
Nonetheless, if someone hadn't gone to college, or had later decided he or she didn't like facts and figures work, TO is a job I would recommend. But its not for me.
As a cop I once responded to an ambulance case in a fancy restaurant where the patient was having a heart attack. While EMS was treating the man the owner of the restaurant came to me and asked if they could hurry up or move him out now as they are disrupting hs business!!!
As a cop I once responded to an ambulance case in a fancy restaurant where the patient was having a heart attack. While EMS was treating the man the owner of the restaurant came to me and asked if they could hurry up or move him out now as they are disrupting his business!!!
I'm sure that everyone at one time or another has witnessed a selfish, inconsiderate piece of scum in a crisis situation. Mine occurred outside the NY Metro area. Several years ago, I was vacationing in the Blue Ridge Mountains during the Fall. For those familiar with NC, I was in the Asheville area. My family and I were driving on the Blue Ridge Parkway taking in the scenery, when a van full of people in the opposing lane flipped over on its side. I immediately pulled over on the shoulder, as did many other people. We all tried to help. There was a man pinned between the van and the ground. We were trying to lift the van to free him. Eventually, the authorities came on the scene and totally blocked both lanes. At that point, we were all told to get back in our cars and wait until everything was cleared. We were stuck there for a couple of hours until the van was cut open and all the occupants were rescued and given medical attention. Don't you know, there was some impatient, uncaring sh_thead asking "When are you going to clear the road so we can get moving again?".
The subject line in the index read, "NEW: Customers can be A** H@%&s". Could someone please tell me why this is new? ;)
Must be your browser preferences, appending a NEW: to the start of the line. Certainly customers have been that and worse since time immemorial.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you haven't read the post yet, the title says NEW: in front of it. This way, u can c which posts u havent read yet.
No, the NEW item is appended to anything posted since the last time you opened anything, or posted anything on the board. You know that time you see after Welcome Back and your name on the top of the index? Anything posted after that is NEW. Reload the index and it's no longer new.
Everyone is trying to explain the "NEW" to him. I took it the whole time as sarcasm, and that he did know it. I thought it very funny.
Why? He's not as frequent as many of us.
OK. I've hesitated to jump into this thread, because it's not my livelihood. OTOH, I'm sympathetic to what sounds like a relatively thoughtless and uncaring management (something many of us have suffered from in previous or current jobs). So ....
Strike or not, I don't think the public will favor giving you much more $$$, because on average, real wages haven't gone up much. People feel better because they *feel* wealthier from job security, stock market gains, etc. But the reason the economy is cooking along nicely is that expansion has occurred largely *without* actual, real-dollar wage increases in excess of low inflation rates.
R46 et al: You wanna win this one? It's not about striking. It's about P.R. I believe that the public *WOULD* respond well to a savvy, coordinated campaign of both news stories and advertising with something like the following message:
"We're the PEOPLE behind getting you to and from work safely. We have a hard and stressful job, and just like the police and firefighters, we do it 24/7 and you count on us. We're the ones who've done the work (funded by your tax dollars) that have improved the subways over the last 15 years.
"We have your safety and your need to get to work in our minds, and we want to make that happen every day.
"We're not asking for big raises. We're asking to be taken seriously. To be "empowered". To have our knowledge of how the job should be done listened to -- just like at any good growth company.
"We need 48 consecutive hours off because we'll be better-rested and more alert. We need real full-time employees to perform [various tasks] because they require training and experience -- and if you use last week's burger-flipper, someone's gonna end up dead under the train wheels.
"We want to give YOU, the rider who depends on us, the best possible ride. Please help US do that by pressuring the MTA to modify their proposals. Thank you."
Obviously it needs a good copywriter, and good design (the similar ads the union has done in the past were pathetic). But you get the idea.
Then, plant stories in the papers and on TV -- the NY Times would love a good front-page human interest story about a working Joe (or Jill) who is struggling to decide on his/her policy re/a strike. This person loves their job, does it conscientiously, and really only wants to be treated fairly. It's not the money, it's the conditions ... as above ... etc. etc. etc. There are TV versions of the same thing.
The reason the public won't support a strike is because (1) it inconveniences us -- but that's inevitable; and (2) because there's no connection with the needs & desires of transit workers. THAT one can be modified. People will still get pissed off, but if they feel that the MTA is playing games with their safety, they will come over to the other side. Look at how badly the low-fare airlines were hit after the ValuJet disaster showed how they were playing games with the rules.
I don't think any of this will make much difference, since unions -- especially public-sector ones -- have historically done an ABYSMAL job at the P.R. aspects of a strike. Class warfare and shrill demands don't work any more. But an appeal to riders' worries about their safety, and a repositioning of the workers to be our concerned allies, might just work.
(That said, you lose a little piece of the war every time a token-booth clerk or conductor gives attitude to a rider. Granted, the rider is angry, in a hurry, rude or whatever. But you know, there's a LOT of attitude out there. Way, way, WAAAAAAY too much.)
End of lecture.
Very Nice, I would love to see my union sell us to the public just as you have proposed. I voted for the media tax. I was willing to give them chance, but it was voted down. Yes, we could use a lot less attitude, but it comes from the top down. The World would be a much better place if we could all treat each other with respect and careing. Satan runs alot more than the TA and as long as it has any place in this world, we will never live in Peace.
Once again very nice, do you work in public relations.
The Mayor has said that wage increases should be paid for by productivity gains. Think about this. Take the increase in annual ridership. Take the decrease in TA employment. Calculate the change in riders per employee, 1993 and 1999. Throw in MDBF to show that increasing quantity has not been balanced by decreasing quality.
What you get is a productivity gain that will knock the eyes out of anyone who understands what the numbers mean. Especially since for the first 50 years of public ownership, productivity was negative. No other public employee union can make that claim, save perhaps for the police.
This productivity gain should be the first quote from a union official in any discussion of the contract. But no one knows this. And I can't do the calculations, because I don't known the inputs -- 1994 and 1999 total TA employment, 1994 and estimated 1999 ridership.
Our union does know these figures, and they are a hot topic in the negotiations.
(Productivity and pay).
One of the issues is that the city, and other unions, are afraid that high TA wages would be used as a pattern for other unions, and lead to big raises for lazy civil servants like me. The productivity difference could be used to allay those fears (the fact that incompetent management prevents me from accomplishing anything nonwithstanding).
well sadid and well reasoned. We had a BART strike two years back which still pisses me off--the booth clerks do very little(all tickets are machine vended) and the T/Os's watch a console telling them what the ATC is doing. So they made life miserable for two weeks for the Bay Area and achieved a minor raise. IMHO they also lost whatever moral authority they hqad because the final result was very close to the pre strike offer. So the citizens who pay the freight were seriously inconvenienced for a tiny raise--thanks a lot. NO tangible improvement in service has been evident since then despite protestations that the issues were pride, respect etc. If that were true then it would be a very different game.
Hey, I voted FOR the media consultant. Please read my posts again, you'll see I have been saying much of the same as you.
One thing though. THIS IS NOT ABOUT MONEY! Your campaign would mention raises. This is ot the issue. The issues themselves are.
I hope you don't mind, I left a copy of this up at the 241St crew room.
NO not at all. Spread the word brother!
And encourage others to come to Wed. rally. Maybe if we show up in signifigant numbers, we won't have to strike. But if anything we have to show management that we are united. If 50 people show, I'm quitting and taking my engineer's certificate elsewhere. Cause that means we haven't got a prayer, and the evil empire will have won without firing a shot.
SO COME OUT AND LET THEM KNOW WE MEAN BUSINESS!
A poster asked a question yesterday about the Mack Railbuses on the New Haven and their dispositions. I did some research aided by my faithful assistant,Dusty, the Cybercat and came up with some answers and a few more questions;
New Haven RR contracted with Mack to build ten railbuses:
FCD Type 1
#10 was the prototype built in 1952.
FCD Type 2
#11-19 ordered in 1953 and delivered in 1954.
The railbuses never did well on the New Haven and disposals started in 1958;
#10-13 and 16-17 went to Ferrocaril de Langro in Gijon,Spain
#14 and 15 sold to Remington Arms, #15 later sold to Sperry and resides at its headquarters in Danbury next to the Metro-North Line
#14 sold to Sperry in 1985 and fitted with catalytic mufflers for use on NYCTA as #403.????????
#18 and 19 sold to Sperry in 1958. #18 scrapped between 1983 and 1984 while #19 was rebuilt into rail detection car #402and was destroyed by fire on July 10,1985.
Here's the rub. The Sperry Rail Car on the NYCTA is #402 ex NH #19 sold to Sperry in 1958 and shipped to Cologne,FDR for installation of ultrasound equiptment. This car usually is at Coney Island.
Obviously #402 was not destroyed in the Windsor Tunnel Fire in 1985 so which one was.
Also I don't recall a second Sperry #403 x 14 arriving on the system in 1985. The closest we have to that date is the R-59 Track Geometry Car TG-01 built by Plasser in 1984 and R-31963 TG-02 built by Plasser in 1988.
Can anyone help clear up this confusion.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
403 is on the property. 402??? I wonder what could have happened to it? I honestly can't recall ever seeing two of these railbuses rolling down the various TA lines....
I don't understand what the TA was doing but it sure took more then double the time for me to get home Wednesday.
I got to the Q terminal (21st Queensbridge) at 6:15pm for a one seat ride home. I also thought that R trains might be deverted down 6th Ave and that might slow up service and Queens Plaza, so I took the walk.
Arrival at 21st Street, there is one train of R46 F's in station track 1. A check back to the layup tracks and they looked empty. A large amount of pax are on the F and I join them.
We sit for a good 10 minutes more and a Q arrives on track 2. Annoucment made that the F is leaving first. NOT.. The Q leaves. Another 10 minutes and another Q arrives, EVERYONE runs over to the Q, I sit on the F..... Annoucement made the Q is leaving..NOT..F closes down and off we go.
We get to 57th St (6thAve) and the F goes out of service, discharges but still moved downtown. Who knows where it went>G<. Another 10 to 15 mintues (it felt like a longer wait) a downtown Q shows up but there was NO MOVEMENT Uptown.
THe ride home from that point it was stop and go at every other signal with the normal "Congestion Ahead, please be patient" annoucments.
Was this because of the stabbing? the flooding? or the fire at Brighton??
The not-so-Rapid Transit Operations absolutely can't deal with
anything out of the ordinary. Part of the problem is that
Command/Control Center is no longer staffed by grey-haired
trainmasters who can draw the track plan of the system from memory.
Plus, on the B division, Control doesn't even know where
its trains are.
Saddest of all is that the TA is still way better than the LIRR
Where, oh where is Frank Corrall when you really need him?
You are operating a Coney Island bound B over the Manhattan Bridge when you hear a loud thud and the brakes go into Emergency. You have a deathly fear of heights as well as lengths, and you know that command center will tell you to go down on the tracks and check out your train. You should:
a) take out your professional wrestler friend's blood ampule and smear blood over your forehead and report to Command Center the situation on the bridge and the fact that your head slammed against the console and you feel whoozy.
b) take out your special high tech fiber optic probe which is mounted on a 6 ft telescoping extension pole, and exam the periphery of your train by opening each car door in each car. Said pole also has a set of pincer grips which you can use to retrieve any debris or body parts that might have tripped your train.
c) need some more choices
C- Call Control and inform them of your acrophobia and refuse the order telling your conductor to go instead.
D) Get out your video camera and call "The World's Most Amazing Videos" to inform them that you will soon be the proud owner of some of the most dramatic footage of a bridge collapse since the Tacoma Narrows Bridge went down.
E) Launch an immediate search for a priest amongst the passengers on the train.
G) as in Rule G. Violate it a few times and you watch your
phobias melt away.
H) Open the front door and drop a $X bill on the tracks while remarking loudly "WHOOPS, I dropped an X on the tracks, stupid me. Rules say I can't leave the train, but I'll split it with whoever helps me get it." Help the first person what runs up, down to the tracks. Then close the door and refuse to let him back in until he looks under the train and tells you if its clear.
I) Open the doors and tell the passengers over the PA too look outside to see if they can see any smoke, debris, sparks or body parts. Refuse to move the train untill a representitive from each car reports in to you as to the status of the train.
E) Open up the PA system and begin singing "Manny B is falling down, falling down, falling down ...."
--Mark
I need to go to City of NY at 11 MEtrotech on Monday! I have been told to take the A train from Penn station to Jay street/Boro Hall! Can someone confirm this to me by email "sriny@usa.net" and/or on this message board! Thanks in advance
That is one way to get there.
I worked for 4 years at 4 MetroTech and I don't remember exactly where 11 MetroTech is because the buildings are scattered over many blocks.
You might also try the N or R to either Lawrence Street (if 11 Metrotech is the Doitt/Communications bldg for the City then this is the closest station.
As memory serves 10 Metrotech is near the Dekalb Av station (D, Q, N. R).
Which ever route you take good luck. You should be able to find a directory on the street near Jay Street across from the 370 Jay St building.
I work at 9 Metro Tech
A or F to Jay St
or
N or R to Lawrence St
I'm at 2 MetroTech all the time. The city end of the F train exit comes up into the plaza leading to the square of Metro Tech at Jay Street.
Lawrence street/Metro Tech on the N/R and M (rush hours) is a good choice as well and closer to your destination but is one block off the plaza.
Did you say 11 Metro Tech? That might be across Flatbush Ave, I think 10 MetroTech (The DMV and/or IRS) is 10 and they are at Fulton and Flatbush and the best stop there is DeKalb Ave (N/R/D/Q or M).
Take the Myrtle Av El to Bridge-Jay. Its right there.
Thanks a ton to FDNY84, Lou from Brooklyn, and Jeffrey Rosen!
I hope you realize I was joking about taking the Myrtle to Bridge/Jay. But you're welcome anyway.
Here is a good site for current images of subway riders. www.NousYork.com It is updated weekly. Does anyone know of other photography sites about the NYC Subway? If you do please post them here. I hope this message is not too off the topic.
> Does anyone know of other photography sites about the NYC Subway?
You mean: you've seen all of this site (http://www.nycsubway.org/) and are ready to move on to others, right? Check out our list of other sites, at http://www.nycsubway.org/transfer/transfer1.html
-Dave
Hi David-
This is a possible addition to your links page. Check out...
www.nousyork.com
Is a site with current photos from the NYC subway system. It is updated weekly and shows a cross section of the city's riders. The artist who is posting these photographs, Christophe Agou, has been photographing the NYC Subway for years.
It would go well under the catagory of "NYC Subway in the Arts and Media" on the Transfer Station.
I hope you find this information interesting.
Let me know what you think.
-BP
Dear Ben,
Here is the Great News ! The Website was featured on French Public TV last week. I waiting for the video footage...
Thank You for your creative and kind support.
See you around.
Christophe
N Broadway Line
And when I get to heaven
To Saint Peter I will tell
another Transit Worker reporting sir
I'VE SERVED MY TIME IN HELL!
Dr. Dover, are you associated with Drs. Howard, Fine and Howard??
It is 2003 NYC is broke again. Bill Gates wants to own a electric train so he offers the State 50 Billion Dollars for the NYC Subway System. Lock stock and Barrel. He invests another 10 billion for replacing some stock, and fixes up the Manny B. All 4 Tracks are now in the Middle Roadway, the 2nd Ave Line will be finished in 2 years. These will be the changes. IRT will remain same, except Flushing Line Exp is now 8 A-Will have 2 Markings A-1 207th St-Far Rockaway A-2 207th St-Rockaway Park 24-7 B-CONEY ISLAND to Bedford Pk Blvd Mon-Fri 6AM-955PM CONEY ISLAND-145th St OTHER HOURS. Express Bklyn, Lower Man, Local Upper Man and Bx C-LEFFERTS BLVD-168th ST Local Daily 5.00AM-10PM 7 Days Week. E-WTC-JAMAICA CENTER Local Man-Exp Queens 24/7 Forgot D BRIGHTON BEACH-205th ST. EXPRESS 24/7
Periodically the train would fail to take power and the lights
would go out. After discharging passengers and holding down the
DOOR OPEN, DOOR CLOSE and BUZZER buttons simultaneously, the train
would work again for a while. For some reason people would just
learn to accept this.
Macintosh would take control of the Franklin Avenue shuttle, which would be rebuilt (again) with local and express service. All the trains would be reconstructed with flourescent-colored heavy-duty plastic. They'd also be on time.
Unfortunately, all transfer points to Gates' system would be permanently closed.
Actually, they'd be one-way transfers - in from Gates' systems but no outs. Every Mac built in the last few years can at least read (and many can write) in PC/Microsoft formats. It's just that Microsoft doesn't want anyone to know, and certainly won't set Windows or Word up to read Mac.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Actually, they'd be one-way transfers - in from Gates' systems but no outs. Every Mac built in the last few years can at least read (and many can write) in PC/Microsoft formats. It's just that Microsoft doesn't want anyone to know, and certainly won't set Windows or Word up to read Mac.]
No, but you can get a program that will let your Windows PC read Mac disks transparently, as if they were PC disks. The one I have is called "MacDrive 98" and it works great.
OK, the subway analogy breaks down here - a third party couldn't very well sell tickets or tokens to let people ride Gates's hypothetical subway. But it seems to me that the old style station exit doors that were eliminated several years ago pretty much sum up one of the objects of this thread - "Slam Gates"!
That's very true. I guess the gate(s) cars would make a comeback (duck, dive, ouch ;)
--Mark
You guys are getting off the subject, the reason I used Gates his because he is the richest. I could use the Sulton of Brunai, or Any other billionaire. Just so the MTA has someone more progressive then political hacks
That's worth a rim shot.
If Gates controlled the whole system, the Justice Deptartment would consider it a monopoly and break up each line into its own company and there would be no transfer between any lines.
I can hear the annnouncements now ...
"Ladies and Gentlemen .... this train is out of service. All off. The train needs to be rebooted. Blue screen of death in car 4143."
I can envision what would go on in Coney Island shop ....
"R-200 car 5052 needs Windows 2000 service pack 265".
"Yeah, but I hear that conflicts with port settings if the car doesn't have administrator rights to the couplers. It would cause a car separation exception which isn't handled in the code".
--Mark
And everytime they changed the seats in the cars, the train suddenly wouldn't fit on the tracks anymore :)
Hey - is my old post on if operating systems were subway cars still floating around? :)
And instead of the ding-dong we'd hear the Microsoft Sound when the doors close.
There would be signs everywhere "Microsoft Subways with Internet Explorer- MSN of course!"
Well here goes with a hypothetical question: If Bill Gates owned and ran the NYC subway, when he orders new cars for the system would they be called 'Gates' cars?"
Mike H
Forgive me if someone already made this joke. Much as I don't like Gates, it wouldn't be so bad if the seats were Microsoft.
The cars being GATES cars is funny.
They'd have to be called Microsoft subway 2000 (or whatever Bill decided--and yes, they'd have internet explorer built in as would be Windows[the operating system])
Perhaps we can interest Mr Gates in the new "adopt a subway" program. He can have the 2nd Ave line named after him. It could get built for the original estimate of $15 billion leaving a cool $60 billion left over for other investments ....
--Mark
I stated that before. They have a adopt a highway plan, how about adopt a station. Say Macys adopts the Herald Sq Station, MGS the 33rd/7th Ave etc. They will provide for the cleaning of the station, and leave money for other thingsand it would be tax deductible and advertising. Here we go Penn Station 7 Ave favorite station of the Knicks and Rangers
Hey, they could have "naming rights" on the new 2nd Avenue Line. Heck, would Trump Station be any worse than Astor Place and Schemerhorn Street? That would pay for the stations right there.
OR:
Van Cortlandt Park
Dyckman Street
181 Street-GWB
168-Wash Hts.
66-Lincoln Center
59-Columbus Circle
34 Street-Penn Station-Madison Square Garden (there's a double for you)
Christopher Street-Sheridan Square (another double)
Houston Street
Franklin Street
Chambers Street
Cortlandt Street
Rector Street
Simpson Street
Freeman Street
Jackson Avenue
Lenox Terminal
Fulton Street
Clark Street
Hoyt Street
Bergen Street
Franklin Avenue
Winthrop Street
Beverly Road
Pennsylvania Avenue (sort of)
Junius Street
I'll stop now, but I can go on if you want.
F-CONEY ISLAND-179th ST EXP BKLYN-QUEENS Local Manhatten 24/7 G-CHURCH AVE-FOREST HILLs H-2nd AVE LOCAL Church Ave (F) Train to 205th St Concourse Connection at Houston St to 2nd Ave, in Bronx to Concourse Lines 24/7
He almost fooled me, which isn't very difficult. But I've been told that Ben Dover MD. is really the infamous Dr. Tusch from the subway ads. He must have been recently released from an enjoyable stay at Dannemora.
Sounds as though he's a regular at the annual Funny Name Convention.
Sorry this has gotten off-topic.
Couldn't resist-----Doesn't Ben Dover have a sister Ilene Dover---with all due respect to the late comedian Denis Wolfsberg.
Greetings, all...
During my most recent visit to NYC this past summer, I noticed a vacant site on the east side of Seventh Avenue a few blocks north of Times Square, possibly around 48th or 49th. If I remember correctly, the site is currently a surface parking lot and appears to be rather large.
As somebody who has a passionate interest in urban architecture (particularly high-rises) and with an active imagination, I was thinking this may be a good site for a tall skyscraper in the 100+ story range, strictly as a hypothetical design project. However, before I design anything, I'd need to know a few things about the site:
1. What is the exact location of the site? What streets is it bounded by?
2. What are the site dimensions? Does the site occupy the entire city block?
3. If the site does not occupy the entire block, what other buildings does it share the block with? What is their general condition?
4. As I recall, there is a slight slope on the site, downhill from north to south. How much of a slope is this?
5. The Seventh Avenue subway runs along the west side of the site. If the site occupies the entire block, then the Sixth Avenue subway would also be adjacent. Are there any other subway lines adjacent to the site? Are there any stations or station entrances on or adjacent to the site? If so, approximately how far below ground are they?
6. Are there any landmark buildings adjacent to the site? If so, which buildings are they and where are they located?
7. Are there currently any development plans for the site?
8. Are there any other large vacant sites in Manhattan that would be ripe for such a development?
I realize it's doubtful that anybody would know the specific answers to all my questions. However, is there some way I could find this stuff out, short of actually flying to NYC and visiting the site personally (as much as I would love to do so)? Some sort of a site survey drawing would be ideal -- Any resources on the web I could check out?
I could go higher than 100 floors or so, but as a proud Chicagoan, I'm morally obligated to insure that Chicago has first dips on any "world's tallest building" title. (Another pet project I'm working on is a 150-story building on Chicago's vacant Block 37 that would top out at 2000 feet, plus a 250-foot broadcast tower, making the world's tallest skyscraper.) However, if there's a New Yorker kind enough to help me out, then I'll be sure to add some floors and make it a close #2. :-)
Any help would be greatly appreciated... Thanks in advance.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
David. Why not set your sites on a large mostly
undeveloped site that is north of Times Square?
It extends from 59th Street north to 110th Street,
from Central Park West to 5th Ave on the east?
There's a guy in New York with bushy eye brows with
an ego and other people's money that would be a
match for that site. It could built as a secure
city for the entire rich class of New York,
leaving the rest of Manhattan for the working poor.
I think a good name for it would be METROPOLIS
I have an idea for the site on 59th between 8th and 5th on the South Side. It would be shaped like two Js and would be the tallest buildings in the world. It would be the Jimmy James Towers.
[During my most recent visit to NYC this past summer, I noticed a vacant site on the east side of Seventh Avenue a few blocks north of Times Square, possibly around 48th or 49th. If I remember correctly, the site is currently a surface parking lot and appears to be rather large.
As somebody who has a passionate interest in urban architecture (particularly high-rises) and with an active imagination, I was thinking this may be a good site for a tall skyscraper in the 100+ story range, strictly as a hypothetical design project.]
It's not vacant any longer. Morgan Stanley is building a new office tower on the site. I'm not sure how big it's going to be, but certainly not anything close to 100 stories. As of a couple weeks ago, the last time I was by the area, excavation work was still in progress. The contractor might have begun pouring the footings by now, I'll have to mosey on by and see.
I forgot to mention that it's the Broadway (N/R) line that runs along the west side of the construction site. The Seventh Avenue IRT line (1/2/3/9) is one block west, along Broadway (that's correct, the Broadway line follows Seventh Avenue and the Seventh Avenue line follows Broadway). The north entrance to the uptown platform of the N/R 49th Street station is directly across 49th Street from the construction site. The 50th Street local station on the 1/9 is also quite close.
I forgot to mention that it's the Broadway (N/R) line that runs along the west side of the construction site. [clipped] The north entrance to the uptown platform of the N/R 49th Street station is directly across 49th Street from the construction site.
The northbound platform's northern entrance at 49th St. used to have 2 stairways, one on the SE corner (still open) and one on the NE corner (now walled off). This is a VERY heavily used exit that routinely plugs up for up to 5 minutes during morning rush hour, since it serves a large number of office high-rises. (It's my stop til I change jobs.)
(1) Is it safe to assume that Morgan Stanley's architects were required to include a stairway on the NE corner in their plans? I know the MTA now seems to let developers pay them off to eliminate subway entrance expansions/requirements (most recently in the new Reuters Building on the NW corner of 42nd/7th).
(2) I've heard that since this new bldg is part of Rock Center West, that the network of underground passageways will be extended all the way to the east side of 7th Avenue -- and, perhaps, hence tie into the northbound N/R line. This leads me to wonder, But what about the southbound? Anyone have any info?
I've heard that since this new bldg is part of Rock Center West, that the network of underground passageways will be extended all the way to the east side of 7th Avenue ..
Let's create a passageway between Rock Center and 42nd/6th Ave, then reopen the long-closed passageway between 42nd & 34th. We can call that Rock Center East.
--Mark
... then reopen the long-closed passageway between 42nd & 34th.
What was this? Did it run under sidewalks of 6th Ave? Which side? I'm surprised they could fit in at the Herald Square end, given the confluence of IND, BMT & PATH.
OTOH, I know about the closed passageway under the former Gimbel's that connected Herald Square to the Penn Station complex. That one SHOULD be reopened -- and if I recall correctly, there is still at least one sign in the renovated Herald Square station that directs riders to it.
The 32nd Street passageway was closed in the late 70's or very early 80's because of 1) THE HOMELESS and 2) there were leaks and puddles everytime it rained. It was very convenient for me to go from 1250 Broadway over to Penn Station. With the homeless problem under control and repairing the tunnel can't be that big a deal it should be done. If memory serves me, it was an average width passageway with no real cut-outs that could be rented to various storekeepers.
11/13/99
WHERE IS THIS SIGN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT. I GOTTA CHECK THIS OUT.
Bill Newkirk
I honestly don't remember other than "somewhere" in the Herald Square station, or possibly the PATH piece of the complex. I just remember remarking on it because I tried to follow it to get to Penn before realizing it was outdated.
Happily, I can think of a few subway entrances incorporated into new buildings--both sides of Eighth Avenue at 50th St., and NE corner Eighth and 42nd (although that replaces an older building that already had a subway entrance inside it). So I think you can hope; especially if the building does turn out to be part of Rockefeller Center, since RC already knows that direct subway access is an amenity.
Thanks for the info. Guess I'll just have to tear down Grand Central Terminal and build my tower there. Don't worry... I'll put the train station in the basement. [ducking for cover] :-)
BTW, Does anybody know the exact dimensions of a typical block in Midtown Manhattan? According to a crappy little map I found on the web, it looks like about 900' X 250', but I suspect there's a rather large margin of error here. Does anybody else have more specific info?
Thanks,
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
That's very close. There are 20 blocks per mile (including the width of the street) running north-south and 5 blocks per mile running east-west.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't think that's quite true. Think it's 200' in the north-south direction and 800' in the east-west direction (except for the intermediate avenues like Madison and Lexington which bisect the 800' dimension).
I believe we are both correct. The dimension you quote is, I believe, the "buildable block" - the dimensions inside the city-owned sidewalk area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks... I appreciate the info.
-- David
I have a bridge for sale that connects Brooklyn and Manhattan. It was refurbished 16 years ago and is just like new. Make me an offer that I can't refuse.
How about the ugly parking lot on 8th Av. between 41st and 42nd. Every construction project in the area involved tearing down existing buildings (adjacent; across the street, etc.), but no one will ever touch this already flat parcel. (I've heard no plans) At least make a parking building, or parking space in a new tower.
Also there is a large lot that was cleared on Broadway from 61st to 62nd years ago. I forgot what was supposed to be built there, but it has just been sitting there.
[How about the ugly parking lot on 8th Av. between 41st and 42nd. Every construction project in the area involved tearing down existing buildings (adjacent; across the street, etc.), but no one will ever touch this already flat parcel. (I've heard no plans) At least make a parking building, or parking space in a new tower.]
This lot has been mentioned as a site for the New York Times' new headquarters.
J/Z, L,M NO CHANGES N-CONEY ISLAND-57th ST/7th AVE MANH 7 days xcept Midnight. Shuttle to 36th St Local on 4th Ave Night Hours Express in Manhatten QB-BRIGHTON BEACH via Man Bridge and 60th St Tunnel to ASTORIA M-S 6AM-10PM QT-CONEY ISLAND-FOREST HILLS QUEENS via 63rd St Mon-Sat 6A-10PM othertimes to Astoria via 60th St Both Q s on Broadway R-95th ASt-ASTORIA 24/7 I forgot the K 6th Avenue Local Church Ave(extend to Kings Hwy Rush Hours) to Forest Hills 24/7 F will run local in Brooklyn So of Church when K is only to Smith 9th
What will happen to the D train with these changes? Will it remain
on the Brighton Line or terminate at 34th Street-6th Avenue, 2nd
Avenue, or Chambers Street, World Trade Center?
I want to the effects be if the was a strike. Cause I have to go to 59 Street west side and if there was a strike I would be a fraid to the either the D or the 4 (no effence) I read about the Malbone strret wreck happining becuase of a strike. (no effence again. I would like to know if the was a strike(please god no) what would happen and what should I do? Thanks alot.
Christopher Rivera
It will only effect the low-level illiterate employees that live in the Bronx, like my secretary. We executives will drive around in our overpriced LX470s while our ex-employees apply for workfare. Do you want fries with that?? Hey, I could use a few days off myself. Yo, yo, yo, know what'em saying homey????????
So, if they're your ex-employees, does that mean YOU will finally have to work?
No, I will just cash in some stock and live the rest of my life away from the dirtbags and slum dwellers that I am forced to employ now. I can't wait for the strike to put me out of business!!
[It will only effect the low-level illiterate employees that live in the Bronx, like my secretary. We executives will drive around in our overpriced LX470s while our ex-employees apply for workfare. Do you want fries with that?? Hey, I could use a few days off myself. Yo, yo, yo, know what'em saying homey????????]
Laugh all you want. A strike lasting a few days or even weeks won't be the end of the world. But if the strike lasts for months, all bets are off. If the strike drags on long enough, expect to see the NYC economy take a major hit. As I've discussed elsewhere, restoring even a feeble imitation of regular service will take several months. In the interim, businesses will suffer mightily from the inability of their employees to get to work. Many larger businesses will try to shift work to other facilities elsewhere in the country. Some will relocate entirely, or at least start the process for doing so. I would expect that many smaller businesses will end up failing. So let's say after one year, the strike is settled and the trains start running again. They'll be running with far fewer passengers, as the jobs won't be around any more.
(Strike lasting a year)
That's pretty much an impossibility. At that point, the damage would be so extensive that it wouldn't make sense to restart the system. If it goes more than two weekdays, people are going to lose pay, lots of pay. If it goes more than a week, unless the Union is crushed and businesses believe it will never happen again, they will begin to leave the city. So at some point, the MTA has no reason to settle without a CUT in wages, because there will be no money to settle with.
But everyone know this. If Pataki is playing games, there will be a strike, but it will last two days tops, perhaps three including a weekend. After that point, a judge will issue an order and the Taylor Law will be superceded by a fine that makes two days wage loss for a one day strike seem tame. Everyone will have made their point, and the dispute will go to arbitration.
Peter --
I think you're underestimating both the ability of businesses to work around a sharply reduced transit system (flexible hours, staggered shifts, telecommuting) and also the ingenuity of New York's entrepeneurs.
If there were a transit strike of any significant length, I would assume that just about every church bus, charter bus and school bus operator in the New York metro area would begin running their buses over routes into and out of Manhattan. Issues such as licensing dollar van operators will be accelerated or ignored.
Those who advocate a car free zone in Manhattan may see that come to reality with such vehicles being removed to make way for buses and vans. Will it be chaotic for a period -- absolutely, but New Yorkers find a way to work around it.
Not to start another thread about the Mayor, but it is important to remember that he loses battles (push cart vendors, Brooklyn Museum) but wins wars (crime). I expect that he would consider having the city thrown into chaos from a transit strike to be egg on his face, particularly given his upcoming battle with Ms. Clinton. He'll do everything in his power to keep the city from being brought to its knees. If anyone thinks he doesn't have a contingency plan drawn up for a strike they're only fooling themself.
Chuck
(The Mayor)
Would love a transit strike. He spent millions on his emergency bunker, and loves emergencies that let him use it seem like Patton. That's how we all got sprayed with Malathion.
Here's a point. There is a potential for a strike. From the city's point of view, whether you want to win the strike or just cope with it it pays to have a plan. So who is thinking about his? No one. The things we have discussed -- cutting off auto traffic, or requiring full cars, pick up points, designated private bus routes -- all have to be decided, set up, and communicated. I guarantee you, no one will even think about that until after the strike has occurred. Then, it will be everyone who can getting in their own car and trying to get it. It will be a disaster.
I'm telling you, there is no way to move all those people in without the subway, period. The smart thing would be to have a system set up as we have described, encourage businesses to bring essential personnel in only and have others work by PC and phone. Have others sleep in the office. Shut Broadway, but rent out school auditoria for discount shows. Etc.
I wonder if the Office of Emergency Management has a transit strike plan. They'd better, but I doubt it. And if they come in here looking for data to create a plan on the fly, they can reach me at home.
[I'm telling you, there is no way to move all those people in without the subway, period. The smart thing would be to have a system set up as we have described, encourage businesses to bring essential personnel in only and have others work by PC and phone.]
And after the strike is settled, particularly if it dragged on for more than a few weeks, many of those "temporary" telecommuters will stay that way as businesses discover that the concept really can work. Great importance will then attach to the figure "20%." Why? It'll be the vacancy rate for Manhattan office space.
(20 percent vacancy)
I wish. Right now, businesses are starting to flee the city because they can't find or afford office space. The lack and cost of hotel rooms is also killing us. Perhaps if a strike led to a work at home decentralization it would help in the long run. You can fit more office employees in Manahttan, and on the subway, if they only come in for half a day or two or three days a week, and otherwise work at home.
Actually, the trend toward working at least part time at home, and traveling off peak, is already established. Its the only reason we haven't choked already. But I'm getting that 1989 feeling again, especially with Chase relocating thousands of jobs out of the city because they have nowhere to put them.
[Right now, businesses are starting to flee the city because they can't find or afford office space. The lack and cost of hotel rooms is also killing us. Perhaps if a strike led to a work at home decentralization it would help in the long run. You can fit more
office employees in Manahttan, and on the subway, if they only come in for half a day or two or three days a week, and otherwise work at home.]
Everyone like to talk about Manhattan's terrible shortage of office space. It's one of these things that's accepted as a given, much like the Sun's rising in the East.
And yet I ask - why is no one constructing office buildings on speculation?
I think that -- to some extent -- the real estate developers have learned a bit of a lesson from the last cycle. So they're not building like crazy, yet. A lot remains to be seen as to how companies handle lease turnover. My company signed it's a 10-year lease in 1991 -- when rates were probably near their lowest. We've got to find new space for 2001, but rates in this neighborhood are more than twice what we've been paying. Really throws the budgeting folks.
A prior employer of mine in the same boat (signed a 10-year in 1991) just announced that they're moving to Jersey City. They aren't huge, only about 600 employees in NYC, but it is a sign to developers that there may be a ceiling on the rents they can charge.
You are going to see more and more 'back office' type operations moving to Jersey City. It's close enough via PATH so that most of your NYC-resident employees aren't that inconvenienced. There are even two private express routes (#122 Hylan Blvd., #144 Richmond Ave.) from Staten Island to Jersey City via Bayonne. The city government has had little luck in enticing these sort of operations to the 'outer' boroughs.
I suspect you'll see more and more "front office" operations as well -- in the case I cited it's the whole company from CEO on down.
Chuck
Do you have any info, or a place where I can find info about these routes? it sounds like a fun, yet roundabout way of going home.
(Why no construction)
People aren't building because NATIONWIDE there is a surplus of commercial real estate, so NATIONWIDE financial institutions have cut back on real estate lending. Plus, there seems to be an "inner city" premium. Get enough minorities in your town, and everyone assumes abandonment is a sure thing eventually (just like Dan here), so you require a higher rate to get your money back sooner.
Finally, there is a shortage of sites in Manhattan and our construction unions. The unions charge Manhattan prices to build in Brooklyn, but then you need $40 per square foot in rent to make money. No one will pay that for Downtown Brooklyn. So developers bleat for subsidies, and meanwhile the NJ construction unions build buildings that lease for $25 per square foot profitably. At $25 per square foot we could fill lots of new "Class B" buildings in Brooklyn.
"Get enough minorities in your town, and everyone assumes abandonment is a sure thing eventually (just like Dan here), so you require a higher rate to get your money back sooner."
Maybe I'm missing something, but how do infer the above from my post? I've said here often that technology and telecommuting will have an impact on real estate markets, but that's hardly revolutionary. Maybe YOU are reading something sinister into it.
Not just this post, and not something sinister. But based on your past posts, you do seem to share the belief of many that older central cities have one foot in the grave. They'll get poorer, you'll get more white flight, and barring a "dead cat" bounce rally or two, its all over.
I read this report by Salomon Brothers on the future of NYC, circa 1990. It basically said that the downward trend of all older central cities was inevitable, and that the NYC turnaround in the 1980s was due to a once in millenium confluence of favorable factors -- the globalization of finance, the baby boomers moving n, etc. and now the downward course had reasserted itself. People had been moving away from the poor and minorities for 50 years, and that trend would continue, they said.
Turned out to be twice in a millenium. Now your oft stated prediction is that the internet et all will allow everyone to move out, away from the burden of the poor and troubled, emptying what's left. Others seem to agree -- I don't. Maybe that's why developers can't get financing, despite the clear demand and high rents.
[Now your oft stated prediction is that the internet et all will
allow everyone to move out, away from the burden of the poor and troubled, emptying what's left. Others seem to agree -- I don't. Maybe that's why developers can't get financing, despite the clear
demand and high rents.]
I'd say it's a matter of uncertainty. It's possible that the Internet and such will result in a big decentralization of business activity. Cities might end up losing their natural advantages as business centers. On the other hand, these predictions might very well turn out like the prophecy made by the late psychic Criswell - he said that the world was going to end on August 18, 1999. Cities may retain their historical roles for decades to come. In fact, that's what I expect will happen.
What matters from a financing point of view is that no one can say for certain what the outcome will be. Lenders have a strong aversion to uncertainty, especially when huge amounts of money are at stake as they would be with skyscraper construction. Even if a particular lender is reasonably confident that NYC (or any other major city) will remain a center of business activity, it might elect to hold off until that last bit of doubt is extinguished ... which of course may never be possible.
Technological change is inevitable. The industrial revolution helped create the cities of America. Now the information revolution is starting to have an impact on the cities. You have to separate the technology issue from what you or I perceive as it's ultimate impact. Technology in and of itself does not cause the abandonment of cities or destruction of anyone or anything. Getting mad at technolgy won't make it go away. But a lot of companies are finding that employees prefer at least the option of working from home which does mean they will need less office space. The trend will affect suburban office parks also, many of which are now approaching 30 years old. (My own company has found that people either love or hate telecommuting). And remember many people within the five boroughs are telecommuting, so it doesn't always lead to the flight of residents to the suburbs.
[Technological change is inevitable. The industrial revolution helped create the cities of America. Now the information revolution is starting to have an impact on the cities.]
A couple things have happened recently that may give us a hint about how the technological revolution - the Internet, more specifically - might affect employment patterns. My company always has used field sales representatives to sell its tax and financial information products. Yet management is now reconsidering the whole sales structure given the far lower costs and increasing usefulness of selling over the Internet. And then just a couple of days ago, Allstate Insurance announced that they're cutting way back on their use of sales agents and are closing several regional sales offices, in favor of using the Internet to sell policies. And in addition to these examples, it's well-known by now that more and more people are buying stocks and other securities online rather than going to their local brokers.
Two swallows do not a Spring make, or so the proverb goes. But it's not hard to imagine that more and more selling activities will use the Internet rather than face-to-face channels. If this trend indeed continues and accellerates, the consequences would be significant on a nationwide basis but not necessarily bad for New York and other cities. Vulnerable sales jobs already are decentralized, not concentrated in urban areas.
There seems to be a lot of vacant space out there, at least from my perspective. AT&T has just sold its headquarters building and will lease back some of the space, but about 2/3 of the building has been empty for years because they have not been able to find tenants. Not sure if the new owners will have much more luck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Seems like space is available)
That's not what their telling City Planning. Various business associations are trooping in, saying rising prices and lack of large blocks of space are driving them out. The new media industry, in particular, is saying that their members are going from 12 workers to 200, with nowhere to put them.
When Chase decided to pull their operations out of Metrotech, I assumed they'd be leaving the building, and that some entreprenuers could go there. But they're keeping it.
[(Seems like space is available)
That's not what their telling City Planning. Various business associations are trooping in, saying rising prices and lack of large blocks of space are driving them out. The new media industry, in particular, is saying that their members are going from 12 workers to 200, with nowhere to put them.]
Size may be the key. From what I understand, much of the vacant office space in Manhattan consists of small blocks, probably under 10,000 square feet on average, often located in Class B buildings. New media and other companies may find this sort of space adequate when they're just starting out. As they grow, however, they may end up needing more space and, not infrequently, prefer to have better quality space as well.
Isn't there plenty of space in Woodside and LIC for new businesses?
There's alot of vacancy there, plus it's a good way of getting LIRR to improve service to HP and LIC (perhaps re-electrification of many ROW's that run to industrial areas).
Right now downtown Flushing and College Point are on an upswing, western Queens should follow. After all, Manhattan is an island, and it would be ease congestion in the long run if there was more businesses and offices moving to LIC and Woodside areas.
[Isn't there plenty of space in Woodside and LIC for new businesses?
There's alot of vacancy there, plus it's a good way of getting LIRR to improve service to HP and LIC (perhaps re-electrification of many ROW's that run to industrial areas). Right now downtown Flushing and College Point are on an upswing, western Queens should follow. After all, Manhattan is an island, and it would be ease congestion in the long run if there was more businesses and offices moving to LIC and Woodside areas.]
That's a sensible idea, although there may not be quite as much space available in LIC and vicinity as sometimes thought. Unfortunately, as has been noted elsewhere, the city has been distinctly unsuccessful in getting businesses that can't afford Manhattan to locate in the outer boroughs. Huge tax breaks and other incentives haven't worked.
Long Island City needs to be "protected" to preserve union manufacturing jobs, doesn't it? The problem is that the demand is for cheaper Class B space. Class B space is Class A space that was built more than 20 years ago. There's plenty of such space in the suburbs, and in Manhattan. In the outer boroughs, as a result of long term economic decline, all you have is Class Z space above the ground floor. It takes bucks to renovate that space, or build new, and it doesn't seem to pay.
All the Class B space, and most of the ground floor space, in the outer boroughs is full.
Probably a day or two of interrupted service, just long enough for the Taylor Law to force all the foolish TWU workers back to work. I'd find alternate transportation.
(Find alternate transporation)
The only reason there is alternate transporation is because most people are on the subway. The alternates cannot more a fraction of the people the subways move. They will all be jammed.
Maybe you can ride in by bike -- IF they close the Brooklyn Bridge to auto traffic to free lanes for bikers. Don't even think of driving your car.
You wonder if Rudy has even thought about how to respond? If they have managers who qualify as TOs, they should run the IRT from Atlantic terminal in Downtown Brooklyn to 149th the Hub in the Bronx, and Queensboro Plaza. No point in going further. Perhaps private vans could bring some people to those points, others could SRO on commuter rail.
Meanwhile, they could require any vehicle entering Manhatan to be full of passengers, with designated pick up points along the approaches. Don't know how you'd get the people back out, though.
Best idea -- think of it as a blizzard and just stay home, even thouh the in my case the city will dock my pay.
Meanwhile, they could require any vehicle entering Manhatan to be full of passengers, with designated pick up points along the
approaches. Don't know how you'd get the people back out, though.
Don't know why they don't incent this anyway. In Oakland, CA, (where my little bro used to live), there is a large and self-policed area where Bay Bridge-bound single drivers swing off the freeway, pick up 2-3 riders, re-enter the freeway, and breeze through the HOV toll lane. I don't recall whether the toll is lower, but the elapsed time is far lower even with the stop.
Any thoughts on where a similar plan might work in NYC? Not that we want to encourage car usage, mind you, just to improve the carrying capacity of cars that are already there.
In Oakland, CA, (where my little bro used to live), there is a large and self-policed area where Bay Bridge-bound single drivers swing off the freeway, pick up 2-3 riders, re-enter the freeway, and breeze through the HOV toll lane. I don't recall whether the toll is lower, but the elapsed time is far lower even with the stop.
They have the same thing in the Washington area, too. I think they call these places "slug lines" or something like that. Virginia particularly has several HOV highways that you get ticketed for being on with only the driver in the car, at least in the rush hour.
People have also been known to try to beat these (and sometimes succeed) by putting a mannequin or similar human figure in the car with them. :-)
-- Tim
[In Oakland, CA, (where my little bro used to live), there is a large and self-policed area where Bay Bridge-bound single drivers swing off the freeway, pick up 2-3 riders, re-enter the freeway, and breeze through the HOV toll lane. I don't recall whether the toll is lower, but the elapsed time is far lower even with the stop.]
That plan entails carrying strangers in one's vehicle, albeit briefly. I just don't know if that would go over in New York.
[In Oakland, CA, (where my little bro used to live), there is a large and self-policed area where Bay Bridge-bound single drivers swing off the freeway, pick up 2-3 riders, re-enter the freeway, and breeze through the HOV toll lane. I don't recall whether the toll is lower, but the elapsed time is far lower even with the stop.]
That plan entails carrying strangers in one's vehicle, albeit briefly. I just don't know if that would go over in New York.
I don't think Washington is drastically less dangerous than New York, and people do it there.
It does have its disadvantages, though. Recently I read on the Washington Post's Web site about a driver who picked up two slugs, one in the front seat, one in the back. During the drive into the city, the driver *fell asleep* at the wheel. The front-seat passenger fortunately managed to gain control of the wheel and bring the car to a safe stop at the side of the road, but for a couple of minutes the car was weaving back and forth at high speed -- the passenger was steering it from the side and couldn't steer that well, and he couldn't get the driver's foot off the accelerator. It was also lucky that there was very little traffic on the road just then (it sounded to me as if it must have been very early in the morning before the roads were jammed).
-- Tim
That plan entails carrying strangers in one's vehicle, albeit briefly. I just don't know if that would go over in New York.
Good point, I s'pose. My little bro and his HOV-riding counterparts were largely suit-wearing professionals, of many races, heading toward office jobs in SF. That said, I don't know that there were ever any bad incidents that would have made the drivers suspicious enough to stop picking them up. Speed of passage is a powerful incentive! (Plus if you pick up 3 more people, only one is likely to be a nut and perhaps the other 3 could overpower that one .... )
But that name "slug", at least for a New Yorker conjures up images of drooling stinking skells along the side of the road. The kind of people who might just get sick all over your car stereo (voiding the warranty.) Two people probably could overpower one lunatic. But what if you're the unlucky guy that picks up three psychos? Maybe they'll go after each other and you could bail out of your car, hopefully at an exit.
That plan entails carrying strangers in one's vehicle, albeit briefly. I just don't know if that would go over in New York.
It happens all the time. Witness the "illegal" vans on Flatbush Ave supplanting the B-41 bus service. I remember having to use the B-5 bus along Kings Highway to get to school (now B-82) that either never showed up or was too crowded to board. Some enterprising individuals cruised the Kings Highway service roads and offered to take you to the Kings Highway Brighton Line station for the same token you'd pay on the bus. Once the car was full, it was an express ride to the station. It got to the point that I'd wait for the CARS instead of the bus. They were more reliable. I'd occasionally find people doing this on the B-49 (Ocean Ave) route as well.
Now it's been a while since I used the bus but I'd say it's a sure bet this kind of thing still goes on, especially on Kings Highway, with the former B-5 and B-50 bus lines through routed between Canal Ave (Coney Island) and Starrett City as the B-82.
--Mark
[That plan entails carrying strangers in one's vehicle, albeit briefly. I just don't know if that would go over in New
York. ]
It happens all the time. Witness the "illegal" vans on Flatbush Ave supplanting the B-41 bus service.
True, but slightly off-point. The vans are commercial enterprises which by definition appeal to any stranger with a dollar in hand.
The operation I described in Oakland relies of the self-interest of drivers wanting to save time by using the HOV lane -- and no money changes hands. The driver has to pay a bridge toll with OR without passengers, but gets to pay it much quicker with enough people in the car to let him use the HOV lane.
[That plan entails carrying strangers in one's vehicle, albeit briefly. I just don't know if that would go over in New
York. ]
It happens all the time. Witness the "illegal" vans on Flatbush Ave supplanting the B-41 bus service.
True, but slightly off-point. The vans are commercial enterprises which by definition appeal to any stranger with a dollar in hand.
The operation I described in Oakland relies of the self-interest of drivers wanting to save time by using the HOV lane -- and no money changes hands. The driver has to pay a bridge toll with OR without passengers, but gets to pay it much quicker with enough people in the car to let him use the HOV lane.
When asked about transportation on Staten Island, I wrote up a business plan for a "carpool club," in which screened members would dial into a comptuer and, using touch tones, say where they were and where they were going. Under the plan, the computer would match a drivers and riders, without the carpool constraint of having to leave and arrive at the same time every day, as in traditional carpool. A driver would get $2.00 a pop to pick up two or three neighbors and take a ride he or she was taking anyway. I proposed it for park-n-ride (shortage of spaces) and civil servants and others traveling to dispersed workplaces such as police precincts, schools, and hospitals. It would also work for moderate income reverse commuters, I claimed, who could in effect share the cost of a car. The riders would save the entire cost of a 2nd or 3rd car, the driver could earn a few thousand per year.
Like most of my ideas, that one went nowhere. What, not a government program? Too far outside the box!
[re "carpool club" idea]
Carpools can be a dicey proposition because of the social issue. Many people - I'd probably be the same - find it awkward to be in close proximity with strangers. Are you supposed to make polite conversation with one another? What topics are okay to discuss? Can you read the newspaper rather than talk (assuming you're not the driver!)? On mass transit, people are alone in a social sense despite being close together in a physical sense. That's not the case with a carpool.
Can someone please tell me what exactly they're doing between Atlantic and Utica on the 4 line in Brooklyn? The 4 terminating at Atlantic is beginning to annoy me.Train Buff Headquarters
Hey, up to 1988, ALL Lexington Ave. service terminated there during middays. The MTA likes to get nostalgic every now and then.
The reason the 4 is terminating at Atlantic Ave is because of the track work that is going on the Livonia line. This requires most 3 trains to terminate at Utica and use the 4 turnaround track. Sometimes the 3 and 4 would both terminate at Utica and use the turnaround track. But this is once in awhile...........
3TM
When the inevitable strike begins, the TA will be crippled. This will be the opportunity for all of us to show the city that we haven't just been amusing ourselves here. We must marshall the resources that will be available on Day 1 of the Strike. At this very moment, with geometric logic, I am assessing the best way to make use of the horse drawn carriages in Central Park. All such carriages will be double headed with a second horse, and they will have 2 or 3 trailer coaches behind. Such carriages will replace the current 8th Ave Express service. The Southern terminus of this route will be 7th Ave & Central Park South. The Northern Terminus will be 7th Ave & Central Park North. The operation will naturally bear the logo of The Prospect Park Coach Lines. All customers on this route will pay for rides not with Metrocards but with bags of Oats and enormous tips for the wagon train operators who will provide colorful commentary on the city.
If he wishes, David Pirmann will be the Chairman of Metropolitan Transportation Authority, and I heypaul, will be Superintendent and Porter of the Stage Coach Division.
Now, we need able minded managers to make use of the
ferries, bicycle messengers, garment center dress rack movers, Coney Island Boardwalk wicker chair pushers, and other resources that have escaped my humble mind.
We can keep this city running.
I will be more then happy to manage the ferries, not at all. They can conenct to one of your Stage Coach Division lines.
Thank you Chris, that is Superintendent Rivera. You have your work cut out for you, but we have plenty of time to work the bugs out. I hadn't even thought of intermodal connections. Yes we should be thinking of providing a seamless thread of transportation.
heypaul, you better think about that for a while. After dealing with the R-44s and the R-68s on CPW for the past decade, I'm not sure if today's subway riders can cope with the speed of the horse drawn carriages
The customers will welcome speed. Plus good fresh air, instead of steel dust. Although as an occasional bike rider in Central Park, I am concerned about the health dangers caused by the animal droppings. If it gets dried out, there's the danger of it becoming air borne. Perhaps this problem could be solved by an idea once proposed by Alan Abel. He suggested putting clothing on animals. Perhaps we could put diapers on the horses, to ease my hypocondriacal health concerns.
Slowing down the speed of the horse drawn carriages will lessen the danger that gusts of air will blow particles from the dried animal droppings around.
I reccommend installation of grade timers and hoof dectetors along CPW.
If you would consider changing the name from The Prospect Park Coach Lines to The Central Park Coach Lines I think a CPCL logo could be designed that would become an instant hit with all passengers.
Please consider the installation of vending machines in each coach that for a $3.00 fee would dispense a small stale piece of Entenmann's Crumb Cake.
My friend Newman and I will run rickshaws pulled by the homeless.
Cosmo --
You'll need to become Master of your own domain before you can be put in charge of the rickshaw business.
I have solved the whole problem of transporting millions throughout the city in the event of a strike. I was watching the Honeymooners episode when Ralph went with Ed to Mr. Marshall's house to give his boss pool lessons and to get the job as bus supervisor. What has that got to do with the strike? Well Norton impresses Marshall with some of Ralph's old ideas. But it's Norton line of work that is the answer for all of our planning problems.
IT'S THE SEWERS!!!!!!
(I wish the Sarge were with me now and could show me how to make the last sentence go cross the page.)
We have a whole underground system that is more extensive than the current transit system. Sewers go north-south, east-west within all 5 boroughs. We will be able to provide service to customers where mass transit has never tred water. Our fleet could be comprised of gondolas, Prospect Park paddleboats, canoes, the Sheepshead Bay fishing fleet, you name it. Ideally the car bodies from the R-46 fleet would be right in the element that they were designed for. Think of it, we would using natural water power.
Now so of you nay sayers will point out that the ambience of the sewers is a problem. Not so. I'm arranging to buy cases of room air fresheners as well as car air fresheners. I will be on the phone this very morning, contacting the Christmas Light Companies to have them line the tunnels with Christmas and Chanukah and Kwanza (sp?) Lights.
Now some of you have special skills that I would like to enlist. Larry Littlefield: I think you have been going around the city surveying for the upcoming census. Would you be interested in being Chief Surveyor of the Underground Routes?
We could use artists to make murals for the walls. This is such a vast unexplored resource.
Transit buffs: Think of the hours and days that you could spend exploring these new tunnels.
This system has limitless capacity. Why each of the main lines, to quote Ed Norton, has a capacity of 50,000 gallons per hour. In fact, if he is available I would like to make him General Superintendent of The Sanitary Sewer Subway System.
Will gas masks be supplied or will we have to bring our own? Those air freshiners won't do the trick!
Listen Mark. We have to move millions of people.
Don't bother me about minor details concerning smells. If you're worried about that, well start a pubic education campaign that during the strike, New Yorkers should try to use the bathroom facilities of friends and family in Long Island and New Jersey. Most people don't give a crap about mass transit. Well make up a slogan something like Don't give a crap for the sake of mass transit during the strike.
We have to put our minds to work here to solve
serious problems.
I guess if none of us shower in the morning, then we won't even notice the smell!
Sorry folks, I been out to lunch. What's this I hear about a transit strike? Is it really coming and what are the issues. From my visit to New York last August, I have as good an idea as any non-New Yorker about what a hardship it's going to pose for city dwellers. The traffic in an around Queens Plaza alone was stiffling, as was the traffic in downtown Brooklyn. Without the subway system in operation you're looking at chaos. I hope it doesn't come to pass. Can it be averted?
On that same episode Norton started the idea that eventually became the "1"-"9" and the "J"-"Z" trains with his odd and even buses although at the end he credited it to Ralph with his alternate buses.
By the way Paul:
IT'S THE SEWERS!!!
Maybe Bill Anderson or Kevin Walsh can answer this. You never really see anything about the Whitesone LIRR Branch in any books or websites. The Rockaway Branch has a whole book, "Change At Ozone Park". I just saw a picture of the College Pt. Station in "The Long Island Railroad in Early Photographs" by Ron Ziel. It stated that the City was considering taking over the branch in the 30's like they did with the Rockaway Beach and Dyre Av Lines but they decided against it.
Questions:What was the right of way? I assume it came off the Port Washington Branch, probably by Willets Point. How many stations and where were they? Is it true about the city considering taking it over for transit and if so, why did they decide against it??
It left the Port Washington Branch near the northeast end of the IRT Corona Yard and followed the west shore of Flushing Creek. The right of way along the creek has been almost completely obscured. I notice this when I was there a few months ago. Perhaps some of the others can continue this tale.
Larry,RedbirdR33
11/12/99
There are still some traces around if you know where to look. Basically undeveloped "spaces" between buildings or even a parking lot ot two.
Bill Newkirk
At a train show some years back, I actually bought a Whitestone Branch timetable. I will try to dig it out and report back.
In the book "Old Queens in Photographs" by Syfried and Asordian, there are two old photos of the branch. One in the Flushing section has the intersection of Northern Blvd. with College Pt. Blvd. about 1910,(both roads had different names in those days). The tracks ran on the ground.
There is a second photo in the Whitestone section which shows the terminal station. I don't have the book in fron of me but if I remember correctly, the Whitestone branch was abanded about 1932.
Mark
I have a Whitestone timetable from 1928 on my website at http://www.lirrhistory.com/timetabl.html
The Whitestone Branch was built by Conrad Poppenhusen and had a relatively short life, ending operations in 1932.
It branched off from the PW just east of what is now Flushing Meadows Corona Park and followed a convoluted route, winding up at what is now a supermarket at the present 154th Street and 9th Avenue.
When you are riding the PW branch towrd the east, sit in a front facing window on the left side of the train. After the train has passed Shea Stadium, look carefully and you will see a track branching off to the north (the connection to the PW has been severed). This is the last remnant of the Whitestone Branch. Pretty much impossible for a non-transit worker to get a photograph of that track.
Another remnant of the old WS Branch is in the name of the Main Street station on the PW Branch (Flushing Main Street). The WS had a stop at Bridge Street (what I believe now may be 32nd Avenue) called Flushing Bridge Street. They had to differentiate them because of the two LIRR stops in Flushing).
In the old days, the LIRR would have the third rail on its electrified lines on the *passenger" side of the platform! The PW Branch used to do this in the vicinity of the Little Neck station, and I believe the WS Branch did it for its whole route. Watch the gaps!
Finally, Ron Ziel has photos of all the WS Branch stations in his book Victorian Stations Of The Long Island Rail Road, if you can get your hands on a copy.
I wish the WS Branch could have lasted, since the College Point and Whitestone areas have never even been discussed as possible branches of the subway system...as in
This is 23rd Avenue (Flushing Airport)
The next stop on this 7 Train will be 20th Avenue
www.forgotten-ny.com
I remember the tracks for the WS branch that were along side Flushing Creek/Van Wych Expressway (South of Northern Blvd). In the early to mid 70's they stored old LIRR coaches including one or two of the old double-deckers. Several of the coachs were on their sides. Supposedly they had fallen over when the ground shifted. Evidently the ground wasn't too firm because of the proximity to Flushing Creek. It was a sad sight to see how this equipment ended up.
I do remember a couple of double deckers there years ago. You could see it from the "7" Train. But I had no idea that was the WS Branch. Where was the College Point Station??
>Where was the College Point Station??
Near 18th Ave. and 127th St.
I was actually there. While the building was destroyed in 1934, I think I found a rail in the dirt there. And there is an overgrown sealed area which seems to be on the ROW that might contain more rails. Every so often I wonder if anyone would like to walk the ROW and see what can be seen.
PM rush Thurs 11/11/99 at WTC. Lighter than normal crowd expected on the E due to Veterans Day. Homeless female in Train Operator's operating car (R32) lying down and taking up one entire bench. T/O tells her to sit up, that seats are needed for paying customers. T/O gets verbal abuse from her. Train leaves WTC. T/O calls Control Center requesting police. He is told to signal enroute. What a joke! Cops are hard to find BEFORE trouble starts. Cops are not taught the horn signal. And even if they did know the signal, even in the old days, that signal means to hide and not to respond to a certain train unless ordered by TP radio. Train Operator gives up signaling after a few stations. No cop seen on platform for the entire trip. Control Center never follows up with Train Operator to find out if police ever showed up. Fast forward to arrival at Jamaica Center, female still lying down on the bench! Read my cyber lips: next time a homeless person is lying down in my operating car, I will SEE NOTHING! Any complaints to me from the other passengers: I will relay this incident to them! This is a prime example of discontentment on the part of RTO employees. You are out there all alone. All RTO wants is to have that train move!
Are you suggesting that the train should have been taken out of service or held in a station because a homeless person was lying across a bench. During the PM rush?
Sorry, but I've got to say I'm with those who kept the train moving. Signal at each station for an officer to help out, but this doesn't sound like a problem worth tying up the line for.
Apologies in advance if I misunderstood the situation.
Chuck
Yes, you do misunderstand. Why wasn't a cop on duty where there are throngs of people like at W.4th, 14 St., etc? When was the last time you saw a cop patroling a subway train? I would have nothing to gain by tying up the raod. Why would I? I had no intentions of doing so. Control Center would not allow it. What would be my gain? I would have an overloaded train, and lose my recovery time between that trip and the next one. How would you feel after a hard day at whatever you do, you want to sit down on the train, and some freeloading homeless person is lying where you want to sit? Would you complain to a crew member?
I hear you. Personally, I wouldn't complain to the crew -- I don't see it as their responsibility -- but I know many would. For whatever reason, when I was reading it, I thought you were advocating holding the train somewhere to wait for the police. As I now understand it, the complaint is that there were no officers to board the train in any of the major stations. And I've got to agree with you.
Chuck
Do you know why??? because they don't care about people on the train but they care about getting $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.
I had the same Problem over on the No.1 Line. There was a Homeless guy Harassing Passendgers in the Conductors Position at Chambers Street going uptown. I call Control about this and they told me to singal in Route for Police. I turned My scanner onto the Manhattan Transit police Channel and the call never went over. My first call to Control was Leaving Chambers. I called again after 34 Street and they said continue to signal in route. Now there was a GO where all trains went Express from Times Square to 96 Street. So I held the train up 2 Minutes at Times Square No cops show up with all my horn blowing. I told Times SQuare I was going to sit and Wait for Police. Now all Northbound No.1,2,3 Trains had to hold in stations. So Control pulls a nice trick. They they me that the Police are waiting at 72 Street so I pull out. A northbound No.2 Gets helled by Police when he got into Times Sqaure. So the Police waited for me to leave and held the No.2 which had No reported problem. Also Police was not at 72 street but the guy got off anyway.
The best I heard was there was a man with a knife on a Southbound No.1 at Rector street and control told them to proceed to South Ferry and if he remains on the train then call us back. That happened back in July.
Dave, next time do what I and everyone that I tell this to does.
Go directly to jail, do not pass GO, do not collect $200.
Step off the train, bypass those self important bastards, and DIAL 911!
You would be surprised how fast you get a response then!
Control Center deliberately does NOT tell the police about certain incidents to avoid tying up the railroad. And incedently loosing control to the police. God forbid they loose control.
This is a verified fact by the way. I have a copy of the control center procedures manual.
Thanks for that little bit of Information. That explains alot about what control center goes.
I might have a field day with that one. Next time, just lay down and go to the telephone and call 911 first. After you do that call control and tell them that they didn't answer the radio so you called 911. The Professional, if he chooses to confirm through his own experience, can testify the TA covers up heinous crimes committed by Supervision and scapegoats their hourly employees to cover them.
Pity there wasn't a passenger on the train with the initiative to eject the besotten woman from the train themselves. Then it would have been a problem for a station manager.
Why eject her from the train? Wake her up and get her to sit up and restrict herself to a single seat. That passengers should be able to do.
Then you're assuming that people would want to A) speak to the creature, B) sit next to the creature.
Jeez Bill, after all these years you JUST figured that out?
For the rest of you: now you know why we are characterized as lazy. It's not that we are, it's that we learn form experience that to do even a miniuscule amount more means nothing, or worse could mean suspension. THIS is the work atmosphere those genuises at Jay St. have created.
Joe Hoffman's, Mike Lombardi's and Nat Ford's TRUE legacy at NYCTA!
It doesn't pay to be constientious.
11/11/99
Yes , the recently closed for restoration Hoboken Terminal building has reopened to the public. I don't know if today is day one , but I suggest you all check it out with camera in hand. Here is my observation:
After leaving PATH , I noticed most of the temporary plywood walls wre removed. Approaching closer , I noticed that the yellow ceramic tilework that was exposed a few years ago when they demolished that eyesore of a vestibule , was sparking clean. There was bunting above the entrance with the year "1907". The entrance doors are much wider , possibly ADA compliant and mahogony with brass hardware.
When you enter the station , the terrazzo and cermic tile floor is totally new , replicating the original. Gone are the numerous cracks and uneven wear of the floor. The benchs are refinished and sport new lighting fixtures worthy of an old time train station. The ticket windows are redone with brass framing,nice touch!
The interior walls are all cleaned and look better than we've ever seen them. Even the restrooms were redone too.I saw a workman cleaning the bronze finish of the lion's head water 'ICE WATER" fountain. There are four enormous chandeliers with white globes with mercury vapor lighting. The ceiling with classic stained glas is all cleaned up and it looks like the framing around the stained glass appears to be of wood finish. The ornate windows that let sunlight in and bathe this last of the Hudson river train depots appear to be redone and look great. On the ceiling,there are numerous compact florescents (screw in) that also add a nice touch.
Workman were busy removing some of the curved skylights in the plaza area. It looks like new skylights are in order. All in all , the station looks magnificent , it may not rival Grand Central but it sure looks better than I've ever seen it. I suggest to stop by at check it out , bring your camera and report back to SubTalk.
Bill Newkirk
Hello fellow buffs, I have something to say here about the #7 lines future equipment. Please note that who ever has been saying that the R62(A)s are coming to the # 7 line they are wrong. The new cars to join the # 7 line WILL BE R142s. They also will not have computerized signs. That idea was dropped. So lets just wait and see what happens. I myself could be wrong. Have a nice day. Regards.
Bombardier does have an 11 car r142 which will more than likely be on the #7, and a 9 car train more than likely will be seen on the #3. But I believe the 1st to have the new equipment will be the #2,and 5.
This is incorrect. The R142 will go on the 2 and 5. The R62 will be going over to the 7 line as enough R142's go into service. Only the E180 St. yard has been equipped to handle the newer cars. This was discussed at length months ago.
No new, unpredictable cars will go into service on the Flushing line. It's design demands that reliable cars be used.
I believe the R142 will have computerized side signs, and roll signs up front to show the route.
No new, unpredictable cars will go into service on the Flushing line. It's design demands that reliable cars be used.
That's an odd statement. Does this imply that 2/5 can better handle unpredictable cars? Won't they go through rigorous acceptance testing before placed into revenue service?
--Mark
Yes. The Flushing line can be effectively shut down should one of these new cars break down. If it happened on the Lex or the West Side IRT, it probably wouldn't disrupt service along the whole line. Remember all the problems with the R46 and 68 when they were new?
I didn't really notice anything with the R68 when they were new. They were always running on the D and Q. They took them out of service?
No, but the Westinghouse R68's had all sorts of teething problems, including shoddy manufacturing related problems. I'm sure someone here can fill us in on the specifics.
They cannot use computerized signs in the front like Philadelphias M4s?
Many different routes. The M4s in Philly only run on one line (hey, Philly has only 2!), while the R142 have the potential to run on 7 completely different lines, (with shared segments) and 11 (current) different roll signs for train designations. Now, if the TA only used train destinations, then all-electronic signs would work.
-Hank
That's wrong. The pictures at Bombardier show that the train will have a red LED sign up front.
Then they must have completely electronic signage.
Thats really weird. They have 2 pictures at the Bombardier website. One is a 5 train and the other is a 2 train. the 2 train is has a LED display and the 5 had a normal big green bullet.
R142 & R142a will have a Bullet sign in the front not LED Also they will have LED on the side. I read some artice about amost 8 months ago when they start building R142 & they were going to put LED in the front but they change their mind to Bullet sign. R142 going to #2, 5 & 6 & R62 will go to 7 Lines. Don't tell me im wrong but i work for MTA. Fairwell to Redbirds im going to cry.
11/13/99
Maybe you're right about the end "bullet" signs. Look how great they were on the R-110A's and when the sun hit them right......Which line?
Bill Newkirk
The Redbirds will still be with us, although in reduced numbers. There aren't enough new R142/R142A cars on order to replace all of them.
Wasn't the picture with the bullet sign the older one, when that car was first put tgether, and isn't the one with the LED a newer "final" version (the fronts are very different in other ways)?
The LED version is a photograph, the rollsign version is a computer rendering. I've also seen the latter, much earlier than the earlier (that's confusion for you).
Those pictures on the Bombardier website are ALL computer-rendered. The publicity graphic that they released has a regular roll sign. Considering the readability factors in font-end signage, I'd expect a regular curtain sign on the front, and all electronic on the sides.
-Hank
That's wrong. The pictures at Bombardier show that the train will have a red LED sign up front.
No, I see a 5 in a green circle in the picture on their site. Check it out.
http://transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/F1_Fb.htm
See another of my responses about the matter.
Different pictures on this site:
http://www.transportation.bombardier.com/htmen/A1A.htm
-Hank
Well The word on the No.6 Line is the R 62A will be leaving starting in the Beginning of the Year.
The R142s have an AC system that can only be changed out through the roof. They will only be seen on the 2 and 5 at first. The barn at Corona Yard cannot deal with the R142 AC. When enough 142 trainsets are in service the fleet of 62As at Pelham will be moved to the Flushing line.
Are you sure R62A? The R62 has a better MDBF than the R62A. The R62 are Kawasaki built and R62A is Bombardier built.
I don't think there are enough R62's on the 4 line to equip the entire Fushing line. Besides, a number of R62A singles will be needed to make 11 car trains for the 7 line. I don't think the MTA wants to mix both car types, so I'll assume they'll just use all R62A's.
Currently, #7 has 344 R36 cars with 9349 and 9410 out of service. #6 has around 260 R62A cars. If the cars are swapped, #7 still has some R36 cars.
Furthermore, two 10-car Pelham R62A trains are on #5 line for OPTO. If these two trains move to #7, will we see two R62 trains from #4 on #5 for OPTO?
It will be very interesting for subway buffs like me.
Chaohwa
Wont the R142 have full width cabs like the R110A?
3TM
Yes, R142 trains will have full-width cabs.
Chaohwa
But the 'B' cars will not have cabs.
-Hank
That's rights.
A cars have full-width cabs and B cars have no cabs.
Chaohwa
So that is why the A car will have less seats and standing room than the B cars.........
3TM
Another line may need to send R62A cars to the #7, probably the #3 because it still has all single cars. Does anybody know for sure?
I would assume that the 3 line will have some of their singles swapped with a few 5 car sets to accomodate the Fushing line's need for 11 car trains. Wouldn't it make sense to extend the platform of the 145th/Lennox station to accomodate 5 cars? I haven't seen this station in 12 years and forgot what it looks like.
With 148 there, why does 145 even stay open all those years? I know, stupid YIMBY concerns.
Another line may need to send R62A cars to the #7, probably the #3 because it still has all single cars. Does anybody know for sure?
11/13/99
"Well the word on the #6 line is the R-62A will be leaving starting in the beginning of the year"
WHAT WILL REPLACE THEM? The R-142's can't be ready that soon even with rigorous testing.
Bill Newkirk
Redbirds from #7 line will replace R62a.
11/13/99
Soon to be train operator,
You mention the Redbirds from the #7 will go over to #6 Pelham , I guess married pairs and singles will go bye-bye ?
Bill Newkirk
Hopefully the singles will go bye bye! or at least be married.
If they shift all the Flushing redbirds over to the 6, then the R33 singles will be scrapped immediatley. They're not needed on the 6. Hopefully the Flushing line will be all R62 by the time summer comes around.
However, for train safety reasons, you still got to have R33S around to lead trains to either Coney Island Maintenance Shop or IRT Mainlines.
R33S cars are the only A-Division revenue cars to have tripcocks on the left side.
Chaohwa
That can easily be added to some R-62s. They can also keep R-33 work motors or other work motors instead.
ANY work car that can lead a train has tripcocks at all 4. There are plenty of R127/R134s on the Flushing Line on the trash trains, that it shouldn't be a problem.
-Hank
Will all of the #7's R62As come from the #6? Or will another line (#1 or #3) have to send cars to the #7?
My guess is that the 7 will get all of the R62's from the 6. Since this isn't enough to totally equip the Flushing line, I'm not sure where the rest will come from. My guess is that the 4 train R62's will be transfered as well.
But the 4 train cars are linked up to 5 car units. I dont think they are going anywhere..........
3TM
So? all R62's except those on the 3 and the 42nd. St. shuttle have been linked. 2 5 car sets and a single = 11 car trains.
I still dont think that Jerome is losing its cars.........
3TM
It's the only other logical choice. They aren't coming off the #1, thats for sure.
What about the #3? To get 11-car R62/62A trains on the #7 you need single cars and the 3 is the only line (other than the 42nd Street Shuttle) that has all single cars (I'm assuming 5-car conversion on the #1 and #6 is nearly done).
But now that I think about it, the #4 is a more logical choice than the #6 and here's why I think so. All you have to do to transfer R62s from the 4 to the 7 is to send them down the D line to Coney Island then up the N line to QBP where they can switch over to the 7. For 6 trains to go to the 7, they must first go down to 125th Street then backtrack up the 4 line then do everything the 4 trains have to do.
One question: Can Kawasaki R62s and Bombardier R62As run in the same train?
There is Dekalb Av for car transfer to be done
Where does the "4" connect with the "D"?
Right in the Jerome Avenue yards. In fact, you'll see #4 trains stored alongside B and D trains in the yard.
How many tracks can stores in #4 line Jerome Ave Yard? They indoor Yard & can't tell how many track are there.
David "Meaney" Justiniano
Yes, most #4 trains are stored in an enclosed yard below the Tracey Towers parking lot. I'm not sure how many tracks are in there, but it is a small yard and that's why you'll see some 4 trains being stored out in the open-air yard next to Lehmann College where the B and D trains are stored.
THAT'S the Jerome Yard! The Concourse Yard is the one with the B and D lines.
I knew that. And it does connect to the #4 line so you'll find #4 trains occasionally stored there.
Thanks!!!! I couldn't imagine where. I thought maybe there was a secret spur at Atlantic!!!
As a daily '7' rider, I'm a little confused by this thread as to whether the '7' will get R62s or 62As. There is a big difference, and that will manifest itself if the 62s, with their ridiculously small seats go to the chronically overcrowded '7'. Almost every time I ride a 62 on the '4', I hear arguments breaking out because someone is taking up more than one 'seat'. I shudder to think what would happen on the '7', on which people constantly argue over the BENCH seats.
At least the 62As have somewhat bigger seats.
Those seats on the R62 and 62A are identical. But they are small. Some of the R62's on the 4 don't have segmented seats, but simple benches.
Those small seats have some benefits. They clearly define the seats and sometimes they prevent some fat@ss from taking 3 seats simply because he wants to spread his legs. I have seen an entire bench filled by 5 people on a Redbird, an area which can easily accomodate 7 (or 8 if they're not "fat").
11/13/99
CORRECTION ON PREVIOUS POST.
I MEANT SINGLES WILL GO BYE-BYE , NOT MARRIED PAIRS.
Bill Newkirk
Why don't the use R33s for work trains??? So they can get rid of older work trains.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
I think that's the plan. So much for the poor drivers of these trains getting AC equipped work trains.
As of Now the Line Supt of the No.6 Line has said 1/15/00 More REDBIRDS less R62A's. Some my guess is the No.6 may be the last Redbird line.
11/13/99
"Some my guess is the No.6 may be the last Redbird line"
OK GUYS!! IT'S TIME TO GET OUT THOSE CAMERAS BEFORE THEY'RE ALL GONE!!
Bill Newkirk
11/12/99
New schedules dated Oct.31,199 that were released to the public are COLOR CODED! That's a good idea because eye contact instantly identifies which timetable you need. It's about time. The colors are:
BOONTON LINE........................BROWN
MAIN LINE/BERGEN COUNTY LINE........YELLOW
MORRIS & ESSEX LINES................GREEN
NORTHEAST CORRIDOR LINE.............ORANGE
NORTH JERSEY COAST LINE.............BLUE
PASCACK VALLEY LINE.................MAGENTA
Bill Newkirk
11/12/99
Also add to the list:
RARITAN VALLEY LINE.......ORANGE
I don't know what the Atlantic City Line color is.
Bill Newkirk
Yeah, but just TRY to get NJ Transit to issue a color-coded system map. They have a nice readable one in the glass cases at Penn Sta, but the only thing that the Information window could hand out was a B&W schematic (like the old Vignelli-designed subway map, all 45- and 90-degree angles with route lines so thick you could barely see the stations) that was about a 9th-generation photocopy.
Could we get NJ Transit (maybe plus the PA) to do a NJ version of MTA's "The Map"? A nice, large, fully color-coded one? Then by putting the two of them together, you'd almost get to John Tauranac's old single regional transit map from 1990 ....
Sorry Bill- The NorthEast Corridor is RED. Atlantic City is Dark Blue (A train Blue)
11/12/99
SUBWAY BUFF,
Thanks for the correction. I usually make a mistake 7:00 in the morning,unshaven,no breakfast and not dressed. OH well! I apologize!!
Bill Newkirk
Atlantic City is dark blue color very close to purple
Larry,RedbirdR33
North Jersey Coast is LIGHT BLUE (JFK Express Blue). I have a copy of the official NJT map on my wall com,pliments of an NJT conductor.
The schedule colors match the color of the line as shown on their new map.
In the thread "How Many SubTalkers Are There" I've seen several comment that they are confused when we talk about this or that "R".
- First may I suggest you look at FAQ section of this site, Pt IV is Rolling Stock. A "R" number is assigned to every piece of rolling stock that the TA buys, so diesels, flat cars & other one of a kind/unique equip. gets an "R" just like passenger cars.
- Second a very short overview (my summary may be a little dated)
================================
IRT
-- Redbirds: R26, R28, R29, R33, R33S, R36
(the earlier #s had differences that were more easily seen, e.g. round front window in storm door ... the 33s are easier to spot then the others due to flipin small side window)
-- R-62 of '83 from Kawaski (full width cabs)
-- R-62A of '84 from Bombardier (some full width cabs)
-- R142 new car from Bombardier
-- R142A new car from Kawaski
================================
BMT/IND (they mix the equip. between these lines)
-- Brightliners: R32 100% corrugated, i.e. all the way up
-- Silverliners: R38 50% corrugated, i.e. to window line
-- Slant 40: R40 and R40M w/out slant
-- Hippos (all look the same to me) R42, R44, R46, R68, R68A
-- R110A a demo less then a full train set left
-- R143 new car for these lines
================================
Before the "Rs" there were: BUs, Gs, Ds, Qs, Standards, Lo-V & Hi-V.
The D is also called the Triplex.
Early "R" were #1 & up
The TA Museum has/will have a set of Lo-V, Triplex, Standards.
Other museums have singles of many of these, e.g.
Shoreline @ Branford has a R-9 (IND), R-17 (IRT) & lettered singles
Kingston has a R-16 (BMT)
Can't be a real Subway Buff if you don't know the numbers, hope this helps !
Mr t__:^)
BTW, Thurston, even something as mundane as a Token Booth (now Station Booth) was assigned an R number?
Doug aka BMTman
[BTW, Thurston, even something as mundane as a Token Booth (now Station Booth) was assigned an R number?]
That means that our favorite Station Agent has lots of experience driving that "R" number :-) For a future trivia test I'ld like to know what number it is.
Mr t__:^)
The "R"'s on the token booths meant something different than the R's on rolling stock contracts. Booths variously carried prefixes such as Rs and Ns depending on where they were.
R=IRT
N=IND
B=BMT
R=IRT
N=IND
B=BMT
Just remember ... Rhythm 'N' Blues
There is a list of the R-series contracts over at Joe Korman's webpages.
None of them are token booths. I believe there is another "letter series" which designates items such as token booths, turnstiles, etc.
You mean the R-42 looks the same as a later car to you? I don't see how that's possible. And the only way one can't tell the difference between all the cars you so rudely call hippos is if you've never been in one.
You mean the R-42 looks the same as a later car to you? I don't see how that's possible. And the only way one can't tell the difference between all the cars you so rudely call hippos is if you've never been in one.
R-42's look vastly different from R-44's, R-46's and R-68's. Its the latter three that look similar. They're 75 feet, whereas the 42's are only 60.
Well that's right. The R-42 is in a completely different league, and the other cars have interior differences, unless you count the headlights and the side signs, which I can excuse if you don't bother noticing.
I believe he's referring to the overall "look" of the R40M through R68A cars, with the "bullet" end.
There's no way I could ever confuse an R40M or an R42 with an R68 or an R68A.
Wayne
The "bullet" style also applies to the R-62 and is more appealing than any other end (at least to me).
11/14/99
The trade desciption of the "bullet end" is "fiberglass bonnet".
Bill Newkirk
[You mean the R-42 looks the same as a later car to you? ...
can't tell the difference between all the cars you so rudely call hippos is if you've never been in one.]
Well, first we're all entitled to our opinion right ? After all we have the 8th Ave Exp man, the Slant 40 man, The Red Bird man ...
I have loved the Red Birds for quite some time now, but have come to appreciate the Slant 40s, Brightliners (R32), Silverliners (R38) and
the IRT R62As (with a rail fan window) are OK too.
HOWEVER those lumbering beasts that I call Hippos are another matter. In particular the R-68 is no fun to ride at all !
To be fare the R42 should NOT be included & can be easily identified with her recessed storm door. The R44, 46 & 68s are harder to tell apart except for the their four eyes (headlights), 44 & 46 are horizontal while 68s are vertical. So, it's not that I don't like them because I've never ridden them, it's because I've ridden them and wished I hadn't had to ! If only the Hippos had the personality of a Standard ... now there was a lumbering BEAST !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston, actually the "Hippos" only refers to the R-68/68a cars and NOT the R-44 and 46 cars.
Although they look rather similar there are some suttle differences. First, the R-68 cars look more grayish (particularly on there ends) than the all stainless steel R-44/46s. Also, the earlier cars have their headlights (white/red) configured in a row on either side of the ends. The R-68's had a one-on-top-one-on-bottom headlight setup (which was actually a throwback to the pre-R40 cars). Also there are some interior differences as well that I can't recall at the moment.
Doug aka BMTman
The R-44 and 46 have a beige plastic interior with the seals of the city and state engraved (like the M-1/3 series) and woodgrain ends. The R-68 have bright and dull silver stripes. Also the 44/46 use LCD displays and the 68 uses rollsigns.
I've noticed that on some of the R-44s, their doors open and close at about the same rate of speed as on the BMT standards: s-l-o-w-l-y. Slow doors, slow speed. Who assigned them to the A line, anyway?
The R-10s were another story: fastest doors in New York, bar none.
Those slow R44 doors are annoying. I once saw someone getting off at Bway Nassau a little too fast for those doors, and he hit himself on the doors as they were still opening, dropping his stuff all over the place.
Thurston--
What is a Type 'G' car in your older designation list? I've never heard of that. I know A, B, BX, BT, BU, C, D, E, Multi-Section, Compartment, Green Hornet and Zephyr on the BMT, and various IRT types such as Hi-V, L-V, Steinway, World's Fair, Gate, Composite. But what is a 'G'?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
What is a Type 'G' car in your older designation list? I've never heard of that. I know A, B, BX, BT, BU, C, D, E, Multi-Section, Compartment, Green Hornet and Zephyr on the BMT, and various IRT types such as Hi-V, L-V, Steinway, World's Fair, Gate, Composite. But what is a 'G'?
Good question. What is a 'G'? For that matter, what is an 'E'?
The "G" is a Gilbert & Bush "Money Collection Car" built in 1878 for NY Elevated RR/IRT. Can see it a TA Museum as Shoreline/Branford loaned it to them.
Mr t__:^)
Anon: "G" was not a type. The Manhattan Railway at least for a while used a numerical sequencing for the passenger cars and an alphabethical one for certain non-revenue equiptment.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the clarification on 'G'--I thought that was a number-equivalent.
As for the question about 'E,' that was a designation used for a time by the BMT Trainmaster's office on Jay Street for the Staten Island cars converted for BMT operation (2900-2924). It was the next letter available in the car-type sequence. As I recall, if the trailers had been put into service, they would have been 'EX' types. The Standards would have looked really nice in the maroon and blue paint scheme that the SIRT cars were given. I'm tempted to paint my HO WP Car set ("Still unpainted after all these years," to parody a song) in that scheme--much nicer than the muddy brown the BMT used.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed: I recall that paint scheme and it was a very nice one. I didn't know about the E/EE designation. Thanks for the information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm going to a postcard show at the Hotel New
Yorker.
Just keep the Transit Transit crew away from me, and
see to it that nobody mentions that place upstate
where the big hydroelectric plant is and there will
be no carnage. If provoked however, I have in my
possession the hand-shaker electrical device that
the Joker used in Batman to fry one of the captains
of the underworld. Don't mess with me........... The Joker
So your not the gentlemen that was stabbed at Newkirk at around 2pm today?
What, another stabbing???
Doug aka BMTman
What, another stabbing???
It seems to be the favorite pastime in Brooklyn these days!
11/13/99
heypaul,
WHICH HYDRO ELECTRIC UPSTATE ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??
NIAGRA FALLS !!
Bill Newkirk
I bought a postcard of R-62 cars on a 7 test train. 11 cars how? I dont think any R-62 singles were built. Now why not use the R-110A on the 7 if the R-36s are due for retirement?
Also I was going through Law & Order Episodes when I remembered the professer who was hit by an A train. I recall seeing a car that looked like a PATH car. Does anyone know why this was done?
They used PATH cars for the so-called A train because the scene was actually filmed at the PATH WTC terminal - they put up signs that said "W 4 Street" but it wasn't. And you can't get NYCT cars into the PATH tunnels - not even IRT cars.
Now as to WHY they used the PATH station, I don't know. It has a spare platform, so that may be one reason. Closing off a section of the real West 4th St. station for the filming just wasn't an option, I guess. Maybe they were just tired of using Hoyt-Schermerhorn - although they could have shot a real A train there.
Studios use what they can get most transit scens are shot in late hours. Most likely the couldn t get a TA site, so they got PATH. Only us Transit Fans would know the difference
All R-62 and R-62A series cars were originally delivered as single unit cars. It's only within the last few years that they were linked into 5-car units. R-62A test trains ran on the #7 line (11 cars) during the spring of 1985.
MN4191 and MN4192 are the numbers assigned to the F40s bought from Amtrak by Metro-North. For the whole story go to::http://students.cec.wustl.edu/~mjs6/hoboken.html
I have a general orginized labour question here. What would happen if all the transit workers quit en masse and went to find other employment, temporary or otherwise? The Taylor law would not apply and the MTA would be screwed. It would take them months to train a new workforce. W/in a few days I could see the TA's begging skilled workers to come back to work and if they didn't you could drive a commuter van (no subways after all) or move to another city that requires skilled transit professionals. You might not have a job anymore, but you'll bring the whole city down with you. Remember, its not how well you do, but how well you do compared to others that counts. Just wondering how thins option would compare to a strike.
Last night/early this AM I saw a work train- normal work train coupled to another work locomotive coupled to seven former passenegr cars numbered CCR01 to CCR07. They were work yellow and had the lower part of the front storm door removed along with the lower section of the cab. What are they used for? I saw this consist at 23/8th
The cars that you saw are fromer R-21's and 22's now used as the Continous Welded Rail Handler Train.
Larry,RedbirdR-33
As I recall, there were 4 CWR Trains ACR, BCR, CCR, and DCR. Is the ACR and BCR sets still on the property? An ERA article mentioned something about the ACR set sometime ago. There was an unconfirmed report the ACR set went to NY Cross Harbor for their service along with some flats. Anyone have a confirmation on this? The BCR set? Their status is unknown...
The CWR train is a peculiar train. It carries Continuous Welded Rail. How many parts of the system actually have the continous welded rail?
-Stef
Stef: I didn't get a chance to thank you for the right number on the Sperry Rail Car. Its 403 right?
Your right about the welded rail trains. I have info in front of me thats four years old. All were eight car trains made up of former IRT R-17,21 and 22's. I didn't know that one set had been sent to Cross Harbor, but give me a day or two to check up on it and I'll see what I can find out.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, it's 403!!! It's truly unique. How many buses do you know that can roll on the rails?
The ERA article in question on the CWR Train is rather recent, late 1998, early 1999.
-Stef
Stef: I came up with two references to the welded rail cars.
ERA Bulletin March 1998: ACR 01-08 and 15 flat cars transfered to the Cross Harbor RR. Location of BCR 01-08 in doubt.
ERA Bulletin March 1999: ACR 01-08 and BCR 01-08 scrapped.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's what I thought. I guess the TA didn't see the need in keeping them. If the ACR set had gone to Cross Harbor, what purpose could it have served?
I remember the first time I saw one of the CWR sets. It was late in 1986. They had just been converted to work service. I thought they were peculiar. It was 8 cars, and they still had their passenger look. It was all there, the signs, doors, and windows were still intact. But between the cars, the pantographs were removed and the headlamps were cut out. One long, slow train, I thought. Diesel 10 and 11 were bringing up the rear. From that point on, they would only make an occassional appearance up on the IRT White Plains Rd Line. It was only recently, they showed up on the Dyre Av Line for construction of that line's third track.
In summary, I think that the work equipment such as this is most unique. From passenger car to workhorse. It's gone away to the scrap yard.
A bit of trivia: Would you have numbers would you of the ex-passenger cars? The Bernie Goetz car was on one of these trains.
Thanks For the Info,
Stef
Stef: Here's the numbers
ACR
01 7701
02 7077
03 6726
04 7568
05 7133
06 7569
07 7579
08 7345
BCR
01 7145
02 7750
03 7588
04 7168
05 7083
06 7136
07 7100
08 6721
Larry,RedbirdR33
BCR 01 ex #7750???? Hey Larry, RedbirdR33 R26 #7750 is retired or some kind of mistaken??? Don't forget R26 #7750 still running on #5 line.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
Would those two CCR cars #6721 and 6726 be R-17's that still survive?
Karl: I don't think so. They were reported scrapped and in any event the were more or less gutted when converted to handle welded rail even though they were still recognizable from the outside.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As always I leave it to a good expert to answer the questions. Only one problem though: BCR02 is listed as 7750. It can't be because 7750 is an R26 in revenue service!!!
Thanks For The Info!!!
Stef
Stef; That was a typo on my part. Meaney picked up on it to. BCR 02 was formerly 7550 not 7750 the Redbird Patriarch.
Thanks for the kind words.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Stabbing @ Newkirk Ave on the Brighton Line. When I got there on the Q at 3:40pm car one car door per car (crew access door I guess) was keyed open by uniformed Police Officers on the platform ONLY.
Much confusion, conductor did not make a proper annoucment IMHO (he said "exit in the rear of the car" but that works for south facing cars only).
Simon and/or Rob:
I will be in London on Sat., 20th November. Any chance you guys would like to do some UndergrounD railfanning on the 20th?
Enjoyed your report on the last trip you both took and would be willing to join you for another session.
Please advise.
Thank you,
wsteil
I have tried to contact you off air but your email address is incorrect please mail me direct.
Simon
It's a pity you can't make it a weekday as the very last of the crew operated 1959/62 stock (approx eight trains) see use on Monday to Friday only diagrams during peak hours (the morning /evening commute).
Non are scheduled to opearte at weekends :^(
Still if you are in London at the weekend you can sample the last
unreferbished 1972 stock on the Piccadilly Line, all other stock now being painted in corporaet colours (except District Line).
Sadly the Jubilee Lline extension (Waterloo-Stratford) is still NOT
operating at weekends, but this is expected to open throughout very soon.
Regards
Rob :^)
This weeks chief has an article with the above headline. Basilcy NYCTA mangers have been told to put their holiday vacation plans on hold effective Dec. 16, teh day after the expiration of the authority's contract with Local 100 of the Transport Workers Union.
No manger will be allowed to take any vaction days, personal days or floating holidays from then until Jan. 6. according to an internal memo. Notice was sent to at least one department Oct 6, the day before Local 100 presented its bargaining demands to the MTA.
O'Leary (VP Public Affairs) says it is for coverage in case of an Y2K issues. A total of 2,600 mangers and staff are affected.
The article then goes over some of the highlights of the MTA demands (4 year contact a first) and even the new Divison C picks (work train etc.).
My wife can't take vacation either, because of Y2K. If it was due to the strike, you'd think they'd tell everyone to take vacation, so they wouldn't have non-union employees earning more money while no revenues were coming in.
Looks like Willie told Newsradio88 that the negotiations are not going good. Fair warning. What's the sense of threatening a strike if no one knows about the threat?
Every contract time the same rhoetoric. Willie has to talk tough. It is his job to answer to the membership, just like the TA suits have to answer to the politicians & riding public. Every contract expiration time the public panics, and every time since 1980, the TWU presidents have not called a strike. They have either settled or got a contract extension. Will the same thing happen in 1999? Do you really think Willie and his comrades are willing to spend Christmas in jail? No matter what happens at the bargaining table, TWU leadership already has their wage, expense accounts and benefits package.
Only thing confuses me about these union contracts -- why are they so long? Last time, the city and TA were broke, so they needed wage and productivity concessions. But they signed a five year contract. If the city's economy had stayed down, the wage increases over the past three years could have devastated the TA and City. As it is, the growth was so strong that it is the union members who have been ripped off -- to such an extent that the City and TA are having trouble hiring.
Once again, we face an uncertain future. The City and State have to offer lower wages, because they have to worry about an economic downturn later on, but the TWU seems to be trying to make up for lost time. It seems that anything more than a two year contract would be a mistake. If things are good in two years, the Unions might have a more sypathetic political climate. If things are bad, the City and TA would be able to ask for a lower increase in lieu of layoffs and service cuts.
Larry, three years is hardly a long time. The last contract that was negotiated was re-opened after two years, because Transit was pleading poverty. Rather than dealing with a supposed disaster the following year, the Union (James and Co.) agreed to amend the current contract, extending it for three more years, to expire in 1999. That three year extension gave us one lump-sum payment for longevity ($1500 for over 20 years) and one 3.75% raise in the third year. Of course weeks later, the media exposed the surplus - excuse me, the unexpected revenue increase over what had been projected since the last time the TA asked for money, because TA can't ever have a surplus - at TA, that they have continued to show every year since.
So now here we are staring at an uncertain future (please let me know when we have a certain one, I could use the money that can be made from knowing the future) with every one pleading poverty and the TA wants to give us a 4 year contract, with only the vague promise of a "fair increase in wages". Should we really accept that and trust them again?
How stupid do I look?
(TA wants a four year contract)
Let's say the TA offers three percent per year for four years, or 12 percent (a little more with compounding). The TWU should say we'll take that 12 percent in a two year contract. If the city is in a recession and the MTA is hurting is hurting, perhaps the TWU will accept another wage freeze for the good of the passengers. If not, the MTA could offer more next time as well.
The TWU has some moral authority on that one. It took a hit and trusted the MTA last time. The MTA could trust the TWU this time.
DC37 signed a FIVE year deal, starting with the two-year wage freeze. Had they just signed for a two year wage freeze and wait and see, we could have done better.
I'm taking the A train to Aqueduct tomorrow....any comments on this train? Fairly safe for a Saturday afternoon?
Yes, definately. No school kids getting out and mobbing it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Have a great day!! The weather should be nice and the $150,000 Grade II Long Island Handicap should be a great race. Wish I was going but I can't tomorrow!!!
Thanks. Had a really cool day. Views along this ine were lovely (especially for a Fall afternoon). And, I won $12!
I know there is a Kamasaki Plant in Yonkers {The Old Otis Elevator Plant}.When will these trains will be ready for service?Are they having the same difficulties as the equipment as the R-142's from Bombardier?Havent heard that much from the plant in Yonkers, i know they built some IND trains that run on the D line.
B and maybe N, not D.
The R-62 (IRT) and the R-68A (BMT)
Living not too far from the plant, I drove by Thursday and noticed they are producing railcars for Viriginia Railwway Express. I have yet to see any tooling or carbodys of an IRT or BMY nature. All the shells on the property are 85 feet long.
I have some pictures of MARC cars on the test track there.
-Hank
I got a set of those O gauge R-42s from Mike's Train House. Although the car bodies are abit smaller proportion wise (to allow the cars to run on the tight O gauge track curves the IND/BMT models are basically made to IRT car dimensions).
The set I have are the 2-Car Unpowered Add-On set, which are the ones everyone is interested in acquiring, since they come in the original delivery colors of TA blue stripe with the "M" logo. The not-as-popular powered car set (4 in all) comes in the MTA rebuild markings (new logo and minus blue stripe). The sets can be run on O31 track.
As I understand things, the NY Transit Museum is supposed to be getting these in on a special deal with MTH Electric Trains. Although I would call to confirm, since I suspect that whatever shipment the TA Museum gets will be for a limited first-come, first-serve basis.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug-
Your enthusiasm for the MTH R42's is well founded. These are the first toy trains(not scale model trains)in O gauge that accurately resemble any New York City subway equipment. Some of us have been waiting a lifetime to get any NYC subway cars that look decent, and these are exquisite. When last year's set was spotted at a hobby shop, it was explained that there would be a "premium price" because the production was finished. No good! However, this year's sets are out. My purchase was of the four car train without the proto-sound. The next set will have the proto-sound, believe me!
The cars are heavy, track well on O-31 radius, and really look good. My current showcase theme is M.U. eqiupment, so we're going to bump some diesel GPs and fill a shelf with the R42's --- not until Christmas, of course, because Santa really hasn't officially delivered these fine cars yet. We're just doing "sneak previews" right now. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have Mike's Train House become interested in a Lo-V set or R1/9's? Members of the MTH Club and others who like O gauge toy trains should let Mike know of their interest. Personally, yours truly gave up on the idea of any toy train manufacturer producing a New York City subway product of this quality due to the assumption that the interest would be limited only to the New York City area. The R42's seemed to have disproved that because they have been reissued as new sets with new car numbers. You might happen to know that the very fine Lionel Pennsy MP54 sets of many years ago(c.1986)were actually produced under contract by Mike's Train House. They are the best looking Lionel pieces in my collection - and they run beautifully.
Enjoy your R42's. Let's also see if we can raise a real demand for some first generation subway cars as well.
When you consider that 90% of Lionel's locomotives in the 'teens and twenties were patterned after New York City area electric locomotives, there is no surprise that subway equipment would do well. Besides, most tinplate operators use their imaginations to make the available rolling stock fit in with the desired locale. I'm sure that many of these cars will be thought of as CTA or even BART and used wherever a tinplater desires a rapid transit vehicle. Heck, I'm tempted, myself
Speaking of CTA, I heard through someone with "inside info" from MTH that their next subway sets will be of CTA cars (don't know if it's current rolling stock or older equipment). My contact seemed to believe that NYCT cars were not being offered for next year, just the Chicago cars. Bummer.
I would think there is enough interest in both municipal systems to sustain a full-line of New York and Chicago subway cars in their catalog.
And certainly MTH could attempt to do some Boston subway/light rail in O gauge. That's another untapped source of modeling.
Doug aka BMTman
Ray, funny you should mention the weight of the cars. I only purchased the unpowered 2-car addons, yet they have the weight of powered cars! I suppose this was done to reduce the chances of derailing on curves? (when I used to have a Lionel set in my youth, even at slow speeds, the cars would derail on turns).
Since the bulk of my model railroad collection is HO I plan on using my O gauge R-42's as static display models on my bookshelf. Now, if only MTH were to release a set of R-40 slants.....
Doug aka BMTman
Where is this Mike Train House??????/
3TM
Mike's Train House is a brand, just like Lionel. Their products are available from some (but not many) full-service dealers and seem to be quite prevalent at train shows.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mike's Train House is a brand name (not a place -- which I assume you are thinking).
BTW, most of the larger model railroad shops carry their line of trains and accessories.
However, they also have their own website, where you I believe you can order direct from the company: www.mthtrains.com. (Fax: 410-423-0009)
Good luck.
Doug aka BMTman
Sunday, I saw Doug's train set. They were on a kitchen table in Brooklyn while we were eating lunch. Even this IRT fan was impressed!
Mr t_:^)
Although I've been a rail/sub fan all of my 46 years since I've been reading SubTalk I am more aware and informed about things and make alot more observations. Today while riding on the Main Line I made an interesting observation. From the Queens Village Station to just west of Hillside Facility by the Babylon line Flyover Junction there was not 1 signal on any of the tracks except small signals on the tracks leading from Hillside and the Freight tracks S/O the main tracks. That had to be a good 3-5 miles, maybe more. Isn't that extremely dangerous?? I realize the engineer can look ahead visually (I know there's no traffic lights on interstates) however trains do have very long stopping distances. What if visibility is bad such as a foggy day?? Also on some of the older diesels the visibility is terrible, the engineer can only see the right side of the engine. I know the Transit Authority would never allow that. If memory serves me correctly even long straightaway stretches of the subway such as Broad Channel to Rockaway has a signal every so often. (I might be wrong) Any comments from people in the know?? I would hate to see a repeat of the Thanksgiving, 1950 wreck!!!
I don't know the precise answer to your observation, but I think it has to do with a type of automatic train control in use on the LIRR.
I do know that they took out the signals on the Long Beach branch a few years back.
Chuck
Not at all. The LIRR uses cab signals, in fact, they're safer than the system used in 1950. The engineer can see the signals in any weather, because they're in the cab. The cab device also makes sure he obeys them too. Metro-North has no wayside signals except at interlockings. Many european systems have few or none at all. In any case, seperation (of trains) is by the signals, not by sight. That's what the signal system does - keeps train from bumping into each other.
After the recent problems with taxicabs, the MTA has taken a proactive measure ( whatever that means ) of warning all train operators that they are not to bypass stations if large numbers of minorities are waiting for a ride. To emphasize the seriousness of the situation, any train operator failing to adhere to this advisory, will be assigned late night platform duty in a specially selected high crime neighborhood. They will be given a bull horn and instructed to give customers hints on the safe boarding and exiting from subway cars.
Dr. Ben Dover, the MTA's behavioral therapist, believes that about week of said platform duties will make a new man or woman out of the offending train operator.
11/13/99
heypaul,
Is this MTA behavioral therapist , Dr.Ben Dover associated with BELLEVUE !!
Bill Newkirk
Things often said in jest are sometimes true. Back in the early 80s there was a train operator on the A line who worked the midnight. Since he's now a Yard Disp. we won't identify him but he would regularly skip local stops between East NY and Utica Ave, notifying customers that if they wish to get off at any of the potentially bypassed stations, they should notify the conductor. Of course this only worked on the 6-car R-38s but to my knowledge, he was never 'caught'.
So Steve, the schedule for this run looked like this?
East New York 1:05am
Rockaway Ave 1:07am (f)
Ralph Ave 1:09am (f)
Utica Ave 1:10am
(Skipped stations in poor neighborhoods -- never caught.)
Those were the days when TOs got "respect," right?
A 6 car R-38 in those days (usually 2 -3 dead motors) Not a chance.
Steve,
I guess I didn't make my thought clear:
The (f) was meant to mean "flag stop." There are many off-peak trains on the MBTA Commuter Rail Purple Line with that indication at some little-used stops. The legend in the schedule says:
Stops to discharge passengers on notice to conductor and to pick up passengers visible to engineer.
Is this serious. If it is, then I don't get it. I think most cab drivers are worried about going into neighborhoods where they will have to drive back without picking up a fare or the customer running out of the cab without paying. These are not concerns for train operators.
They have a much less probability of being attacked that a cab driver has.
Mark. This was one of my twisted posts. I am sorry if it was misleading, since I presented it a rather serious style. Or maybe it sounded politically expedient enough to be possible. Perhaps the punishments to errant train operators also sounded strong enough to also be possible. It was just meant for a laugh. paul
Finally got to pick up my new LIRR schedules this evening -- here's my quick review, with a particular emphasis on the coming Dual Modes
Huntington/Port Jeff -- Interesting weekend service east of Huntington. Eastbound schedule is basically unchanged (every 90 minutes, alternately connecting from Penn at either Hicksville or Huntington). Westbound schedule remains every 90 minutes, but all trains go to Jamaica to make the Penn connection. Trains which used to have a change in Hicksville now go to Jamaica and meet a train from Long Beach which gets you to Penn 4 minutes earlier. Trains which used to have a change at Huntington now go express from Hunt to Jamaica where you can wait for the electric train which went local from Huntington to Penn behind you. It looks like they're setting up the schedule so that it will mimic what Metro North does on their lines (local from Brewster to White Plains then express to GCT, White Plains local to GCT leaves 5 minutes after the express leaves)
Weekdays, no noticeable changes in the rush schedule. Mid-days, service is similar to the old weekend schedule (every 90 minutes, alternate change in Hix and Hunt). Huntington electric service every 60 minutes.
Ronkonkoma/Greenport -- looks basically the same, some off-peak weekday adjustments.
Montauk -- With the usual winter Hamptons eliminations and completion of a busing program it's tough to figure out what is and isn't a change. Other than the already noted DM on trains 2737 and 2734, I noticed that the 6:53 out of Patchogue will now leave at 6:58 and only as a shuttle to Babylon. The Mineola stop (recently discussed here) will now be made by the train from Montauk (which is adding a stop in Babylon to pick up those Mineola passengers). The new 6:58 will connect with the 7:33 Babylon-to-Brooklyn which skips Wantagh-RVC. Not really clear what's happening here. If I recall correctly, DM's can't go into Flatbush? My guess is that they're going to eventually combine this train with the 7:37 Babylon-to-Penn as a DM. Weekends are unchanged, but it sure looks like those Babylon-Freeport-Jamaica-Penn trains are going to be combined with their Speonk or Patchogue connections for direct DM Penn service.
Babylon -- other than the one DM, I didn't see any interesting changes.
Long Beach / Port Wash / Hempstead / Far Rock / West Hempstead -- no changes of note
Oyster Bay -- Dual modes!!! Nothing but dual modes!!! Sorry folks, just kidding. Not a single change worth noting.
Chuck
What do the dual mode locos look like. Are they going to look like the ones that went to Huntington in the past, those red and blue diesel looking locos or will they look like the present yellow bi-level locos?
By the way, you mentioned Flatbush Av. If I recall correctly in the days before the M-1, only the prewar trains went to Bklyn, not the '55 MU cars (the soon to be phased out present diesel cars) or the double deckers. Something about their size. Thats why lines that primarily went to Bklyn like Hempstead or Far Rock very rarely had double deckers, just on Penn bound trains.
11/13/99
Jeff,
The Dual Modes DM-30's (#500 series) look identical to the new diesels DE-30's (#400 series) except the Dual Modes have shoe beams.
Bill Newkirk
And Shoes
The problem with the longer, post-war cars at Flatbush Avenue, as I recall, was some track curves in the terminal area. As I understand, modifications were made in the early 1970's.
We will NEVER see the dual-mode locomotives there. Simply because of weight restrictions on the elevated portion of the line. If one looks at older LIRR Employees Timetables, it is shown in them that only the GE 44-tonner (400) and the Alco S-1 and S-2 switchers were permitted west of a point 1000' west of East New York station (I believe that is the point where the line transitions from tunnel to elevated.) All other locomotives were restricted from proceeding west ofthat point due to their weight.
The line starts to elevate at Howard Av, alot further than 1,000 feet, but I guess they used 1,000 feet as a margin of error.
Huntington/Port Jeff -- Interesting weekend service east of Huntington. Eastbound schedule is basically unchanged (every 90 minutes, alternately connecting from Penn at either Hicksville or Huntington). Westbound schedule remains every 90 minutes, but all trains go to Jamaica to make the Penn connection. [ ... ] Trains which used to have a change at Huntington now go express from Hunt to Jamaica where you can wait for the electric train which went local from Huntington to Penn behind you.
I found this at the LIRR website. This makes no sense at all. The diesel leaves Huntington 8 minutes before the electric local, makes no stops, while the electric makes six, but the diesel is still scheduled to arrive Jamaica 8 minutes ahead of the local. What does the crew do? Pull into that new third track west of Hicksville and make a fondue pot for 10 minutes? Do they share it with the passengers?
Also, the eastbounds don't start at Jamaica, so I figure they must run light to Hicksville or Huntington. Why? This whole arrangement must require another crew.
Maybe they're preparing to make all weekend Port Jeffs dual mode.
-- Maybe they're preparing to make all weekend Port Jeffs dual mode. --
I think that's exactly what's in the cards for the Port Jeffs and the Speonk/Patchogues. For the life of me, though, I have no idea what they're doing with the current Port Jeff weekend schedule.
My guess is that the Port Jeff trains which are now scheduled to run to Jamaica and then wait for the Huntington local will continue into Penn. The ones which connect with the Long Beach-to-Penn aren't as clear. Perhaps they're going to remain diesel only. Or perhaps they'll replace the Long Beach train going into Penn. (until about 3 years ago, Long Beach weekend trains always went to Flatbush anyway -- but I really liked the new direct Penn service).
Chuck
[What does the crew do? Pull into that new third track west of Hicksville and make a fondue pot for 10 minutes?]
Yes. They bring a small electric stove and run it off the third rail.
[Do they share it with the passengers?]
On the LIRR? Ha ha ha ha!
At approximately 10:45PM tonight a work train hit a bicycle on the track at York Street. Power was turned off for about 30 minutes. Fire Department was notified because of a small fire on the track. F service was backed up as far as 4th Avenue(that's what I heard). Could
have been as far as Church Avenue.
Hey Wayne, (and other subtalkers) remember last week I mentioned a siren on a pole on Main Street a block South of the RR Crossing E/O the Mineola Station?? (The one with Nassau Tower) I didn't think it was still in use. Well I went by there today looking for parking for the station and IT WAS GONE!!! The pole was still there, just no siren atop it!!! I guess members of the Mineola Fire Dept. must read SubTalk. It was definitely there in the summer. By the way, the LIRR still must own the land for the old spur to Garden City there 'cause they store crossing gate equipment there!
What ever happened to our plan to have a fieldtrip there? Because this coming weekend, I was planning on doing a massive subway filming, all through the Bronx, and I wanted to stop by the remnants of the Polo Grounds shuttle and I have no idea how to navigate the area and find them. Is anyone interested in coming and/or providing some direction?
You can see the stub where the shuttle once connected to today's #4 line at 162nd St. and River Ave. - a block north of Yankee Stadium. Go west a block on 162nd to Jerome Ave. and you will see the buildings that the line went over - and under. Go around to your left (following Jerome Ave.) and you will come to Sedgwick Ave., which is effectively just a service road of the Major Deegan Expressway at this point. Walk slightly north on Sedgwick and you should see stairs for a pedestrian overpass, from which remains of the Sedgwick Ave. station can reportedly be seen.
But what caused the fate of the Polo Grounds shuttle on August 31,
1958? It was the relocation of the baseball Giants to San Francisco
and the demise of the New York Central Railroad's Putnam Division.
I've noticed that some of the SubTalk regulars are natives of the area and was wondering if any could answer some questions I had --
The current Bellerose station is an island platform between the two southern-most (Hempstead branch) tracks. Since there are no switches connecting the tracks until west of the Bellerose station, a Main Line train couldn't stop there.
I recently saw a picture of the Bellerose station before the Floral Park station was elevated and I'm assuming before the Bellerose area was put on an embankment. From the picture, it looked like the station had two side platforms, one for the northernmost track and one for the southernmost.
So, the questions are: What branch served Bellerose? Were the switches connecting the Hempstead to the Main line east of Bellerose in the old configuration? How did one get from one side of the tracks to the other without stepping over the 3rd rail?
And a related question -- Have the Main Line platforms at Floral Park always been as infrequently used as they are now or is that a recent development?
Thanks for any info
Chuck
Re: your last question: I've been riding the main line since my teens in the '60s and it was never used that much since then. I do remember 1 rush hour diesel in the days before electrification past Mineola that stopped at Floral Park. As far as your other questions that was before my time.
Before the grade crossing elimination project in the mid-1950's, Bellerose did have the outside platforms. All the junction for the Hempstead branch was east of the station until the grade crossing elimination. Once the project was done, the switches were basically eliminated there, and the switchwork around Queens Tower was enhanced (originally it was just a bunch of crossovers so trains could get in/out of Belmont Racetrack).
The old track maps I have from the 1950's, just prior to when the current Bellerose and Floral Park stations were built and the grade eliminations made, verify this. Actually at that time the Hempstead branch split off from the Main Line just east of Floral Park station. There was also a center third track for layup along the Hempstead branch just east of Plainfield Ave. in Floral Park.
Timetables I have from the 1930's and 1940's show that Bellerose was serviced mostly by Hempstead branch trains, but an occasional Main Line train did stop there (along with Union Hall St., Hillside, Hollis, Bellaire and Queens Village).
A little more about Bellerose for Charles G.: According to Seyfried, the village was developed in 1897 and the first station was opened in 1898. A Dutch-style building was erected in 1908 which was torn down September 22, 1960, when the present station was built. The two outer high platforms in the picture you saw date from 1924. I believe that this was the time when the station was put on the low embankment on which it currently sits since both Bellaire and Queens Village were elevated on an embankment in that year (if anyone knows differently, please let me know).
I guess I'm showing my age. That went out with the reversible seats and the smoking cars!!! I guess people are too busy on their cellular phones!! There were usually 4 poker games on each LIRR car during rush hour!!! They were great to watch.
3:55 PM from penn Station to Ronkonkoma has one with lots of money on the table. I'm waiting for someone to rob the train.
And I thought they were a thing of the past.
There's what might be a regular poker game on the 5:22 from Penn Station to Ronkonkoma. It's hard for me to be sure, as I don't ride that train too often and don't use the same car each time I do (the game's in one of the middle cars). I do recall being quite surprised at the amount of money on the "table," several hundred dollars from the looks of it.
I think you are referring to the game in the rear of the train. That's not a poker game. They play some sort of rummy using multiple decks. Unfortunately the tall, thin, animated young, blonde lady who made the game so much fun to watch has gone off and gotten herself married. That's still one of the best trains on the line, despite the loss of the eye candy.
Didn't some really, really stupid cop arrest the participants of a poker game on an LIRR train a few years back? I remember the fun the media had with that story.
I think that was on Metro North and it was a Metro North Railroad Police cop. It did get some negative press but hey, there are laws against gambling on the books and maybe the cop was responding to complaints about the game.
As an aside, I remember a story when I was a kid in the 60's. A bunch of my neighbors used to take the Hempstead Line from Country Life Press to the city every day and had a daily card game. One day they were warned by their conductor that there was going to be a raid on a certain day so they refrained from playing. Sure enough the police got on at a later station.
Actually, there is no law banning the placing of bets on a recreational poker game. The law makes it illegal to run a game for profit. This is why the charge was laughed out of court.
>but did get some negative press but hey, there are laws against
>gambling on the books and maybe the cop was responding to complaints
>about the game.
But even still, as a kid, I remember every church in the neighborhood had "Las Vegas" on some night. Still see the signs up around for it too.
I've heard some LIRR poker games end up at the platform at penn too, which I find interesting. But it's hardly a new thing, though i don't know when it started, I'm pretty sure it dates to at least the 1950's (and the reverseable seats on the MP-54s made it so easy too)
In my 11 years on the LIRR, now five years ago, there was a regular game on the 5:27 of about five players. Since it was a packed train they would give up a seat or two if all five didn't show. Since it was a "Freeport" train it was small stakes, but interesting to watch just the same. Those of us who also rode that car & didn't take "their" seats became their friends.
Mr t__:^)
The following is a follow-up to an earlier thread. It has nothing to do with mass transit but is of interest to most new Yorkers.
About 2 weeks ago, actor Danny Glover complained that he, as a black man, had a very hard time getting a NY City Cab Driver to pick him up. Former Mayor David (MRA) Dinkins has made similar charges. In response to the complaint, Mayor Gulliani had ordered a sting operation be conducted, targetting NYCity Medallion Cab Drivers. Well after the first day of 'Operation Refusal' two interesting things have emerged.
First, after checking 682 cabbies, only 1% (7 drivers) refused fares based on race or destination. Of course this was to be expected since the 'integrety test' was so widely publicized.
Second, Danny Glover is a phoney or at least he's knuckled under to pressure from some political groups. Once it was pointed out to Mr. Glover that the vast preponderance of NY City cab drivers are non-white, he publicly denounced the fact that the Mayor had taken such strong action based on Mr. Glover's complaint.
With Rudy, be careful what you ask for because you may get it.
The once or twice I took a cab (the whole cab thing is a little too rich for my blood), the cabbies weren't all that happy to take me to Brooklyn either, due to the lack of a return fare. But they did it. I gave 'em a good tip.
One good idea to come out of this -- a cab stand in every (better off) outer-borough neighborhood, where cabbies can find return fares and residents can find cabs.
At lower densities, you can't expect to walk out your front door, stick your hand out, and have people pick you up. Generally, car services are required to answer phones, but perhaps they could be allowed to pick people up at designated cab stands also. If the action is strong enough, perhaps the TA can send a few vans to the spot.
I'd put the Windsor Terrace cab stand on Bartell Prichard Square, where several bus lines and the F are also present.
Many times my wife and I would fly into JFK. Convenient for us but a hell to get a taxi since we lived in Starrett City at one time. Clearly it was not a matter of race since my wife and I are clearly caucasian. Clearly not a matter of saftey as Starrett City was very safe in those days. Therefore, I must conclude that it was a matter economy then and I must still continue to believe so. That does not make it okay to refuse a ride but from my taxi days, I found the most profitable rides were the short hops where you keep getting those 'first drops' of the meter as well as the higher percentage tips.
(Refusal to get many short hops).
Taxi medalion owners are a privileged class with a monopoly. The city gives them a monopoly and expects certain things in return, like taking people to the outer boroughs. Get rid of the monopoly, and these guys will soon be happy to get any fare.
[Second, Danny Glover is a phoney or at least he's knuckled under to pressure from some political groups. Once it was pointed out to Mr. Glover that the vast preponderance of NY City cab drivers are non-white, he publicly denounced the fact that the Mayor had taken such strong action based on Mr. Glover's complaint.]
Not an unusual 'tude, I'm sorry to say. It's become P.C. to assert that only us Ice People can be racist. Danny apparently can't accept the fact that a Pakistani or Jamaican cab driver can show discrimination. So it was all a big misunderstanding that they wouldn't pick him up.
I'm still trying to figure out what "MRA" stands for next to Davey Dinky's name.
What are ICE people?
I guess he was suprised that they weren't white. Oh well, people are people so what can we do.
I personally don't have a problem if I was driver. You have a plastic portion protecting you from the person in the back so it should be pretty safe.
What is was the other way around Steve. If the drivers were black and the passengers were white? Would your view be different?
[What are ICE people?]
Whites. Blacks are "sun people." All this is according to some racial theory advocated by Martin Bernal (I may have the spelling a bit wrong), who is a black militant faculty member at Cornell University. The ice and sun identities all tie into a whole scope of behavoir, with blacks being warm, kind and family oriented, while whites are cruel, calculating and isolated. At least Cornell isn't a public university, so taxpayers aren't paying Bernal's salary.
--At least Cornell isn't a public university, so taxpayers aren't paying Bernal's salary--
Sure we are. Given Cornell's hefty price tag, many of the students are on federally subsidized loans and Pell Grants.
If it was the other way around, a black driver refusing me, I'd still think it was economics and not racism. Unless someone calls me a white M****** F*****, cracker or Honkey, he gets the benifit of the doubt.
That may be, but I've seen the racism out there myself. Some of you may remember a couple of posts I made in reference to a service suspension at Howard Beach back in March. A number of us were trying to get to the airport, and the local fly-by-night cab company took as many as could be accomodated in their three cabs. When they returned from JFK there were only two of us left waiting, myself and a well-dressed young black businessman. They said "no more to the airport" and refused to take us. Once the black man left the area on foot, they motioned me over and took me. If I hadn't needed to catch a plane I would have told them where to go - and it wouldn't have been JFK!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And when an uncle of mine lived in the Kenwood section of Chicago(in the house he had been born in) his experience with the white cabbies in the Loop was so bad he would telephone the black taxi outfit near his house and have them send a car downtown to take him home. He was a good customer ,and had a solid relationship with them. In turn I have memories of trying to find a cab to take someone to Queens from the East Village in the late 60's. The SOP back then was the taxis cruised with the off duty sign lit and stopped to ask where yiou wanted to go before opening the door. Iff they did not like your destination they remained "off duty."
No argument from me but as a former NYC Cabbie, I went everywhere. The points of my original posting seems to have been obscured:
1) The majority are obeying the law - albiet because of the crackdown.
2) The refusals were called racism until someone figured out that there are very few white cabbies left in NYC. Now it's the mayor who is the racist, picking on the poor minority cabbies.
Sharpton & Patterson filed suit against the TLC to jump on the Danny Glover Band Wagon. Now Danny Glover, himself, has jumped off leaving Sharpton and Patterson in a wagon with no one to steer. What we need is Jesse Jackson to hop into the wagon too.Let them sue all the minority drivers they want. I just wish certain elements of our society would be more consistant in their claims and arguments
I don't take a cab too often. When I do, its back to Brooklyn after a late night with the family, when the subway would just take too long and the cab would let the kids sleep. No one has ever given me a hard time. Perhaps I use cabs at a time of day when a big fare is a blessing.
If anyone is interested, I found this surfing, The Unofficial website of the NY & Atlantic RR at http://bjr.acf.nyu.edu/railinfo/car-floats/new-york-and-atlantic-rway.html
Yeah, I contacted NY&A some months back inquiring about railfan trips on their equipment. Unfortunately, they never got back to me.
I do recall they had some kind of "open house" tour/trip last year or earlier this year, but of course I only heard about it after-the-fact.
Doug aka BMTman
Last year, around Christmas, NY&A had some kind of a Christmas gathering for the public doing something like like having the kids visit Santa on a caboose. I'll keep my eyes and ears open on something happening in the future via the community newspapers.
Hey all!
I found this site, I believe it's the official web site of the NYAR. Hope it helps.
http://www.anacostia.com/nyar/nyar.html
Greg
The NY&AR map and accompanying station list is really interesting for what it includes and excludes.
The Hempstead and West Hempstead Lines are included, but Oyster Bay, Far Rock and Long Beach are not.
It also shows its service as going only as far as Southold on the North Fork and Bridgehampton on the South Fork, not the terminals.
[The NY&AR map and accompanying station list is really interesting for what it includes and excludes.
The Hempstead and West Hempstead Lines are included, but Oyster Bay, Far Rock and Long Beach are not.
It also shows its service as going only as far as Southold on the North Fork and Bridgehampton on the South Fork, not the terminals.]
I would assume that the excluded lines and line terminals have no freight service. For instance, the customer located farthest east on the Montauk line (according to the customer list link) is Paraco Gas in Bridgehampton. NY&A would have no need to show its service as extending all the way out to Montauk.
[...] the customer located farthest east on the Montauk line (according to the customer list link) is Paraco Gas in Bridgehampton. NY&A would have no need to show its service as extending all the way out to Montauk.
Still, if they had rights to operate east of Bridgehampton, you'd think they'd be anxious to show it for the possibility of future business--maybe a Lobster Express from Montauk or an emergency shipment of "Friends of Bill" to Easthampton.
Doesn't the "friends of Bill" go to Westhampton?? I assume you meant Seafield.
Puh...lease! Day trippers go to Westhampton! The real money goes to Easthampton!
When my family went to Montauk for a few days this summer, we got out just before the President was to fly into Easthampton Airport for an intimate little fundraiser.
Sorry, misunderstood you. "Friends of Bill" is sometimes a euphanism for AA members and there is a big rehab in Westhampton called Seafield Center.
Ever see the bumper sticker, "Another Friend of Bills"?
Sorry, misunderstood you. "Friends of Bill" is sometimes a euphanism for AA members and there is a big rehab in Westhampton called Seafield Center.
Ever see the bumper sticker, "Another Friend of Bills"?
Nope. Learn something every day on SubTalk.
Billy Carter, perhaps? Or did Mr. Bill have a drinking problem he can't remember?
Rim shot!
Please wait while image loads...
Not much of an "attack" really. But the dog is cute. And I love that model of the Hell Gate Bridge. If the dog was more vicious-looking, I would say something about the "Hound of Hell (Gate)". But it doesn't fit this dog.
Love it, I have 2 dogs and they love my trains, especially if I put a treat in the hopper cars
That's too cute. Does that train brake for dogs?:)
Hmmm. A Southern Pacific train crossing Hell Gate Bridge. Did the Southern Pacific ever have service to Penn Station?
I can see my niece right now: bow-wow, bow-wow.
Not even thru car services in passenger trains
What a cute "oh, I'm so sorry I did that" look!
--Mark
from my last visit to the NYC SUBWAY SYSTEM from the greyhound station
on november 1-5 1999 ...
it is clear to me that we all better get out our cameras
kodak 400 etc and vidieo rail fan vidieos etc...
and enjoy and document this as much as we all can because sooner
than later ALL SUBWAY AND RAIL SYSTEMS IN THE U.S. ....
---WILL HAVE NO RAILFAN WINDOWS--- like atlanta san francisco etc.
AND NOW NEW YORK??? !!!!!
and so after a long trip on the bus i shot over 72 hours of vidieo
and took over 200 still pictures kodak 400 etc
mostly railfan type shots etc!!!
and be sure too keep your eye on the number 7 when you cant rail fan
anymore !!! salaamallah@yahoo.com thank you !!
I would like to know what the MTA rational for geting rid of the frount window? What does it accomplish? If anybody has any information please let me know.
P.S. Salaam, What are you going to do with all that vidio?
It allows OPTO and makes the cab darker, making it easier for the motorman to drive the train.
If you miss the railfan window, come on down to Baltimore, where railfan window equipped subway cars will be around for years to come.
All Baltimore subway cars have left hand controls (all our platforms are islands) and the forward facing transverse seat faces a full size glass window which affords a view almost exactly what the operator (yes, we are OPTO) sees.
However, you can't ride on a Sunday, because the line doesn't operate then, and never has. Just like the song.
The LIRR M1-3's all have railfan windows. (If the engineer keeps his door closed and the front car is open) As a matter of fact the LIRR electric trains progressed just the opposite than the subway: Before the M1 the older trains had full length cabs, some even with baggage or mail areas between the cabs and passenger areas. Then with the M1's and M3's they finally got railfan windows. Actually the VERY BEST railfan area on the LIRR was on the rear platform of the rear car on the old diesel trains before they started putting locomotives on both ends. -remember
11/14/99
Watch out for thre new M-7's. They'll have full width cabs , so much for railfan windows on the LIRR. The future rebuilt M-1/3's will be the exception. Unless they are rebuilt with full width cabs.
Bill newkirk
Wonderful.
And I can't even become an engineer or train operator after retirement as that would be double dipping and against the law.
Well, at least I can see the road from the windshield of my car or motorcycle.
And don't forget the very scenic ride up the valley between Old Court Road and Owings Mills!!!
Actually, I think the MTA did try Sunday hours very briefly, but stopped for want of ridership. Tourists also note that the State Center and Old Court stations are closed after 8 pm.
I repeat something I've said before for the benefit of those new visitors to this site: I learned a lot of stuff about the system by looking out the railfan window which has greatly helped me in my career as a Motorman. Something that the young people of today will sorely miss.
Bill:
Come ride the M-4's in Philly. They have the best railfan window of any cars I've seen. They will be around for many, many years. You are right, you can sure see a lot from that window. Almost wants to make me a motorman. You still on the "E" train?
Chuck Greene
Also, the young people of South Jersey will not miss railfan windows. PATCO has railfan windows almost like those on the M4s and also has a cab on one side, since all platforms are island. You can even sit in the operators seat when it is not in use.
BTW, railfan windows are not a thing from the past. They are a thing of the future!!!! New methods of OPTO displayed on the M4s are better than full cabs. They have TV screens that enable the operators to see the left and right platforms without sticking their heads out the window. What is a thing of the past is greeting the operator upon entering or exiting the train.
Not only that but the M-4 window has a comfortably upholstered seat for your viewing pleasure. BTW, anyone know how the camera systems work on these cars. The operator's monitor flickers off shortly after leaving each station and comes back to life arriving at the next station. The cameras are clearly stationary, I presume mounted above the station platforms. Are they using radio signals?
That's a good question, Bill, about the cameras. Hope somebody has the answer.
Chuck Greene
I'm still on the E. Hopefully in the spring when the next pick rolls around, I can pick a station switching job or something else which will get me less time cab time, without loss of take home pay. 20 years of pounding the road as a conductor & motorman (save for school car & 4 months switching) is long enough. Even if I stay on the road, 1 1/2 trips on the F will have a lot less cab time than 4 round trips on the E. Plus, working underground all day is starting to get depressing!
I can see your point. My wife doesn't like to even ride subways because she feels like an underground "mole". Good luck on your next pick, I hope you can get something else that you will like better!
Even at 57 ,I'm still drawing on the computer, with a constant stiff shoulder and right arm. Every job has it's problems, until we find something else that we feel will be better. (Why do I want to be LRV operator?)
Take care, Bill.....
Chuck Greene
the way i saw it the R 32-38
SLANT R 40 on the Q line
a c e some N sometimes the 3
2 5 sometimes 4 ALL 7
that is it for railfan windows!!
RIGHT?????!!!
I don't mean to sound picky, but Atlanta's subways DO have railran windows.
There is always PATH and Metro North
There is always PATH and Metro North
Dunno about PATH, but on the vast majority of the Metro North (diesel) trains I've ridden southbound (northbound all you see is the back end of the locomotive), the MN employees have cobbled up some kind of window shade to block the railfan view. Usually this is an advertising poster with its white (unprinted) side turned toward the passengers.
Once in a while, a crew will leave the door open or the window unblocked. But that seems to be the exception to the rule. Even when they do, there's the variant of hanging a jacket from a hook just above the middle window, half-blocking the view of any passenger standing behind the doorway so as not to enter the cab.
Sigh.
The railfan window mentioned in these threads I believe is the Storm Door window. The true railfan window is the window on the front of the train, left hand side.
PATH still has it. Now, for NEW equipment, check out the new SEPTA cars on MKT/FKD line. The Almond Joys will be missed. They lived their lives admirably and did a Hell of a job. The new cars are pleasing to look at, fast and COOL. And the motorman's cab extends back into the car, not across. So SEPTA maintains a storm door window and railfan window. Three cheers for SEPTA!
Joe C
You are correct in your observation. On New York subway equipment, the storm door window is the closest thing to a railfan window, and it is indeed becoming an endangered species. It's a shame more R-32s weren't ordered - at least they'll still be around for a while.
MTH has decided to temporarily take leave of New York, and in 2000 will offer a Chicago "el" four car train of the 3200 series. The set will be available with sound in the $300.00 price range. The price would be about $100.00 cheaper for the same set without sound. Both sets should be available in May 2000.
Question:Just past the East 177th Street station there is a stub where three tracks used to be where does these tracks lead to it looks it leads towards the Bronx Zoo.
They lead to the original terminal for the Contract I IRT in the Bronx. It was called "Bonx Park" and was removed in the early 1950's.
It ended at E 180th by the zoo entrance
It was the Bronx Park Terminal of the Third Avenue El, which closed
in August, 1952.
The Bronx Park terminal on the IRT line also closed in the 1950's as well. Not sure of dates, though. Probably around the same time the Dyre Ave. line was connected to the IRT mainline.
The Contract I "180 Street-Bronx Park" Station closed on August 4,1952.
The "Bronx Park (200 Street)" Station of the 3 Avenue El,formerly Suburban Company was closed on November 14,1951.
The Contract III White Plains Road Line Station is "East 180 Street."
The former NY,W & BRR Station was called "180 Street-Bronx Park."
Hope this clarifies things,
Larry,RedbirdR33
The recent decision by NTH to offer a subway set based on a Chicago "el" train has outraged SubTalkers. It seems that the internet hobby group was polled by NTH during 1999 as to preference for a model for 2000. The group overwhelmingly voted 143,938 to 2 for their favorite model both past and present which was the beloved R16. The R16 was a mid 20th Century car without air conditioning that found favor with anyone who rode them. Subway fans were known at the time to pass up the opportunity to ride R1-9's or Standards in hopes that the next train would be composed of those wonderful R-16's. NTH ignored the poll results because they felt they could not replicate the wonderful graffiti of the time period involved in variations for four different cars.
LOL.
You must have seen #6409 or #6422 or #6339 or #6386 in their heyday!
Talk about a "coat of many colours"...
I for one actually LIKED the R-16, at least from an aesthetic point of view. Operationally, they were rather slow trains, suited perfectly for local service and capable of handling large crowds. They combined elements of R-10 (handholds, stanchions, seat layout) and R-15 (storm door windows, lights, blowers) with some new features of their own (window signs three-up, door motor pockets (CAME LATER) and the like.
R-16 #6387, #6305 AND #6398 plus the school car are the sole survivors AFAIK.
Wayne
I wonder if there is any significance in the fact that the few survivors are all 6300's. No 6400's survived at all. The 6400's were delivered first which is something else I have never understood
The 6400s were a maintenance nightmare. They had the troublesome GE package, IIRC. The 6300s had the more reliable Westinghouse apparatus. 6321 was an exception; it died a slow and painful death.
I personally would have passed on a train of BMT standards for one which had signs up front. A ride on the BMT to me was on an N train of R-32s, and if it was headed for Coney Island, the green backlit side signs were icing on the cake.
Rather than be outraged, you should get down on your hands and knees and kiss Mike Wolf's feet (or any other part of his anatomy you choose) for even THINKING about producing subway cars in O guage!!
You have to remember that our hobby represents only a VERY SMALL faction of the model train/railfan market. A manufacturer like MTH is taking a big risk when they produce a model with such limited viability. MTH must think in terms of millions of potential sales, and NYC subway cars probably don't fall into that category. Even so, they DID produce the R-42's (albeit with some concessions to the prototype so that they can run on tinplate track), and even offered a re-run on these. I hope you were able to purchase either or both of these excellent models. Frankly, it was only natural for the folks in Columbia, Maryland to offer a Chicago rapid transit train. The CTA "L" fans are just as excited as we were when MTH announced the NYC cars. Be patient. I've personally talked with Mr. Wolf and he assures me that we have not seen the last of MTH offerings of NYC transit equipment! He did say that the firm was looking into making an "older" style "R" type subway car, perhaps even your beloved R-16! Personally, I'd like to see MTH offer a premier line subway set, based on a 51' IRT R type (which would allow a scale car to negotiate tight tinplate curves-and thus be accessible to a greater potential market) with full interior, operating doors, constant voltage head and marker lights, operating rollsigns etc. One wonders if Lionel LLC will get the message, and make a subway offering. With all the years that the original Lionel Corp. spent in NY, it is a wonder they didn't make something in the postwar era, except to say that subway trains aren't very attractive to someone in the cornfields of Kansas!
Very good points, Frank.
The one thing I'd like to add is that I feel that the potential market for subway-related model railroading will only INCREASE since coast-to-coast passenger and freight lines have come and gone over the years making contemporary modeling of those lines a thing of the past (with the exception of small freight lines their ain't much to model in the US outside of CSX, Southern Pacific and Amtrak -- not like the 50s and 60s where there was NYCentral, Seaboard Coastline, etc., etc.).
Although rapid transit lines tend to be concentrated in densely populated cities, nevertheless most -- if not all -- of the best of them have been around for close to 100 years. And with even the folks from "cow country" visiting Boston, Chicago or New York and riding the equipment, would certainly win some of them over into modeling subway and trolley equipment. So I think the market will get even better for subway modeling in the future, as the demand for subway cars (and hopefully accessories) will no doubt continue.
Doug aka BMTman
I hope so. Unfortunately, most people find subways a "last resort" form of transportation in this country. This is not the case, say, in Japan, where EVERYONE takes the train, not just those who can't afford to commute by car or taxi. Even most railfans and mainline modelers find subways and other rapid transit a "bore". Once, at a large east coast train meet in the New York area, I remarked to a famous model railroader (steam and diesel - published in MR, RMC etc) that I modeled subways. His response was typical, "Uniform consists of unsurpassing dullness. Why would anyone waste good energy on that?" I'm afraid we are to remain at the bottom of the model railroad food chain for quite a while.
"Uniform consists of unsurpassing dullness. Why would anyone waste good energy on that?"
Why would anyone model anything? Because they have an interest in it and because they like it. They like railroads. We like rapid transit. Most people that don't have an interest in trains think model railroading is toy trains and that they're for kids. People need to start respecting other people's interests. WE LIKE RAPID TRANSIT! PLAIN AND SIMPLE! IF ANYONE ELSE DOESN'T LIKE IT, TOO BAD!
BMT Lines: Better yet, to hell with them. Are there any models of subways that are for sale in any stores you know of. I, for one, would love to get some models of the New York Subway System, and I suspect I'm not alone in that sentiment.
Sea Beach Fred: See my earlier posts from a few days ago on this thread for details.
Doug aka BMTman
Go to Modeling the New York City Subway Links to the manufacturers can be found there. You can order online or on the telephone.
I think that you are missing the point. Yes, I LIKE rapid tranist too! I am one of a VERY FEW people who have even attempted to model the NYCTA, let alone have anything to show for it (please see pics of my layout at www.monmouth.com/~patv). Unfortunately, model railroading is also a BUSINESS to the producers of commercial models. The entire collective group of subway railfans/modelers represent only a VERY SMALL portion of the OVERALL model railroad market. It is TOO BAD, but the business interests are not going to invest large sums of time and money in producing models that are only of interest to a tiny fraction of the model train community. Today, we are, as a whole, much more fortunate in that there are at least SOME rapid transit models (many are NYCTA prototype) available. Even if these models are relatively expensive, not exactly the prototyoe we want, or otherwise not ideal, we should be thanking these manufacturers rather than complaining that they didn't make exactly what we wanted. The best way to thank them is to BUY THEIR PRODUCT! If you don't like what is commercially available , I suppose you could always scratchbuild!
I wish you could get the R 1 100 102 103 104 105 106 107 108
109 110 !!!!!!
as one HO train set !!!!!
AND the r 33-36 as the WORLDS FAIR light blue paint 11 car set !!!
EVEN in the small N gauge would be wonderful !!!!
i have never been fond of the R 40S on !!!!
BUT I DID LIKE SOME OF THE RERDBIRDS HO MODELS I SAW !!!!!!!
saving up for that !!!!!!!!
i just shot vidieo of the number 7 DAY AND NIGHT the A at night.
the Q during the day and the 2 and 5 during sunset
redbirds r 38 sime SLANT R 40S ETC !!!!
salaamallah@yahoo.com
What???????????
I was given videos of the London Underground from the driver's perspective (there are no railfan windows in London). It got me thinking that something similar might be good for New York. The Q would be ideal for a front-end video shoot, with commentary as appropriate.
Wayne
my last visit to NYC november 1 - 5
I shot a vidieo of the Q line slant 40 FROM ONE END TO THE OTHER!!
a great subway railfan vidieo!!!
salaamallah@yahoo.com and i sgree that the railfan window IS
ALREADY EXTINCT !!!!!!
I said it once and I will say it again - NOTHING beats the railfan window of a Slant R40 and the breathtaking views on the "Q" line. Even the underground portion is worthwhile. The #7 line is just as good as far as views of the skyline are concerned.
Salaam - if you can find them, pick up a London Underground video to show how the editing and commentary fit together with the footage and you can put together your own "showcase" tape.
Wayne
"Uniform consists of unsurpassing dullness. Why would anyone waste good energy on that?"
This person evidently never rode the NYC subway during the late '60s and early 70s where R-42s, R-38s, R-32s and even R-27/30s were coupled together in mixed consists. Uniform consists? I don't think so. And the R1/9s were just beginning to be retired, and the ABs were just retired. A great deal of variety, if you ask me.
--Mark
And that's an outrage. You cannot imagine how many hours in the past I spent looking at model trains and hoping to find replicas of the New York Subway System. But all they had was railroads, railroads, railroads. Nothing wrong with railroads but I'd bet some money if some company came out with model subway trains they'd make a mint. Can you imagine if I had a model train set of the Sea Beach from 59th Street to Coney Island? Why I'd go nuts.
I'd bet some money if some company came out with model subway trains they'd make a mint
There have been model subway car manufacturers since the late '70s. Q-Car Company was among the first. You will find links to subway modeling sites in the Transfer Station section of the main nycsubway.org site.
but I'd bet some money if some company came out with model
subway trains they'd make a mint.
I wonder how Images Replicas is doing .... they seem to specialize in plastic molded HO scale kits of NY subway equipment, mostly Redbirds ....
--Mark
I went back to the postcard show today. I was on the D at about 11:15 to 11:30 AM and we sat at Whitehall Street for at least 30 minutes due to Signal trouble at Canal Street. After about 15 minutes, an N consisting of R-32's came in on the center track, and people starting switching up and back between the two trains. I think we finally got moving around 12:00 and crept for a while. What was nice was the D ran on the Broadway Express tracks.
On the way back, again running on the Broadway Express, we sat at City Hall for about 10 minutes due to door trouble on the train in front. They must have removed the passengers, because a pile of people came on at the next stop.
Finally, back out on the Brighton Line, I saw a northbound D running light with one door open on the side.
Also, to my ears, the Q's yesterday seemed to have a number of flat wheels, not clunkers but noticable.
After taking a trip out to ride the Franklin Ave Shuttle, I was on a Manhattan-bound D around 2pm on Saturday, and didn't experience any noticeable delays all the way through to 34th Street. The ride on the B'way express was great, and there were numerous, very clear announcements throughout Brooklyn and Manhattan about what was going on.
How fast did those R-68s go along Broadway? When they ran on the Q back in 1995, they ran at a good clip along Broadway, but that was before they lost their field shunting.
It didn't seem to be all that fast, but still much faster than the usual service on the Broadway line. (not that that's hard to achieve...) Maybe I'll ride it again this weekend.
11/13/99
After returning from the "second saturday" record show in Wayne , I decided to check out the Newark City Subway maintenance facility that is being constructed. I wish to report to you that there is a blue colored train building with at least 2 LRV trainsets sitting inside. Bear in mind that they had to be trucked in since this section of track doesn't connect to anything. For those of you who wish to check this out for yourself , either drive of take an NJT bus down Bloomfield Ave towards Belleville. Get off at N.15th St. There is a shopping center with a "Casual Big & Tall Male" yellow sign. Use that as a reference point on where to get off. And just walk about a block to the new FENCED IN facility.
BTW - When the new equipment is running and the PCC's are (sigh!) retired , will this line still be called the "Newark City Subway" or the #7 Light Rail Line ?
Bill Newkirk
The LR trains look more like subway cars than the PCCs, but the PCCs are REAL trolley cars.
Even if and when the new LRV's go into service, the #7 line will
always be known as the Newark City Subway.
By us, yes, but how about officially by NJ Transit?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't seen or heard of any plan to change the name of the line, so I guess it will continue to be called the Newark Subway.
It's an appropriate name, so I don't see why they would change it.
What's the bus number and what streets surround the facility? I like to navigate by roads, not by silly landmarks.
Your best bet on getting there is to ride the subway out to Franklin AVENUE, then take the #90 bus and get off at Franklin STREET and Wattsessing Avenue (it turns onto Watsessing). Right around there is a huge fenced-in vacent lot (used to be a Macy's warehouse), and the car barn is toward the middle of it.
When you see the area in question, ring the bell to get off.
The bus ride is under 5 minutes.
How long is the trip to and from the World Trade Center? Also, how do I get an x-fer for the bus?
The bus route number is Route 29, the old Bloomfield Avenue-Subway
Surface trolley line, motorized in April, 1952.
DENNIS LINSKY: YOU ARE AN IDIOT. DO EVERYONE A FAVOR AND KILL YOURSELF
This is the second time you have trashed Dennis.
This time very crudely.
You've made your point.
He always posts under his name, so just pass him by if you feel so strongly.
As for your suggestion what he should do, I think you are very very wrong.
I have taken a lot of liberty in expressing myself on this site, and if I have ever hurt anybody's feelings I'm sorry, really sorry.
Maybe I just need to go back to sleep.
There have been a lot of heated discussions on this site, and sometime people post angry messages, but never as bad as this. In response to a statement on when trolley service was terminated?
Good Morning
Is there anyway ,,you can keep this garbage off the Subtalk --it might not mean anything to you ,,but there are kids that read this site..
It is supposed to be interesting and fun to read and get involved with ,,and not be insulting,,
I do understand that people have opinions and personal grievances,,,but IT DOES NOT BELONG HERE (The Grievances)
If you want ,,contact me ,directly ,,on Spikiecat@webtv.net
Thank you for your understanding
Steve
FDNY
It should come as no surprise that Mr. Sandblaster is a WebTV user. You all know what happened last time Web TV users caused a problem. This time you all have to live with him.
Enjoy,
Dave
Thats not really fair Dave. As a matter of fact I take it as an insult. Web Tv is a server just like AOL and others. We are just smart enough not to dish out money on computers.
I'm sorry you feel insulted but I'm sure you'd feel even more insulted were I to lock out all of WebTV to control a few certain users. That is the only choice I have in keeping this sort of crap off the board. But as I said before, I'm not policing SubTalk any longer. In fact, I'm hardly even reading it. This matter was brought to my attention in email. Otherwise I would not have even seen it.
-Dave
Making fun of someone is one thing, but telling them to kill themselves is unjust. Dave Pirmann, can you track Burt Sandbaster's IP address or inform web TV about this type of garbage and have the idiots account shut down????
To report something like this to WebTv you can Email them at abuse@webtv.net
Unless they keep a log of IP addresses assigned to accounts, then they can do nothing.
Unless they keep a log of IP addresses assigned to accounts, then they can do nothing.
That's right. We don't even have a valid e-mail address. Check out what that creep was using for an e-mail address. Its too vulgar for me to repeat here. Just look at his post and run your mouse cursor over the e-mail hyperlink.
WebTv operates through a proxy server - untraceable to the individual. We had some serious problems a few months ago and Dave locked WebTv users out for a few days. Unfortunately, that punishes the good as well as the bad, but those good ones who were affected found other ways around it - I know that at least one emailed their posts to another SubTalker who posted on their behalf.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am a WebTv user. I have been posting here for 6 months. Whoever did this is a WebTv user. Your point is what???? WebTv users start trouble??? Excuse me, I guess I should get a PC. I am having second thoughts about posting on Subtalk. As a WebTv user I feel "Second class" in here. Especially when you say "It should come as no suprise that Mr. Sandblaster is a WebTv user" What are you trying to say??? Feel free to drop me a private E-Mail.
I too connect to the Internet with webtv. Like the
Sarge, I am quite happy with it. I was once told by
someone from this site, that it is not possible to
track down a user if they were coming in on web-tv.
I think that may be the concern with Webtv.
The guy last night was dead wrong and indeed was
posting crap and I for one took immediate exception
to it--- almost soon enough to be a suspect myself.
In fact, if you check back to a week ago Saturday
you will find another post by this person being
critical of Dennis and actually praising my
professionalism. At the time, I tried to make light
of the guy's criticism. But last night this guy
went way over the line.
Back to the issue of WebTv. To me it seemed an easy
and affordable way to get on the Internet. A very
uncomplicated way. No need to get caught up in all
the techno-babble of computers and keeping up with
the latest upgrade or chip. In fact my only problem
with it is an operation of Bill Gates. The Sarge
has put together a really neat Web Site with webtv-
and seems to derive a lot of pleasure from it.
I met a an older guy going to a postcard show about
a month ago, who wanted to get on the Internet, but
was totally intimidated by it. So he was going to
take a class at a local school. I met him at
another card show yesterday, and he was still
bewildered by the class, but had been to Circuit
City and arranged to buy $3000 of equipment. I told
him that he didn't need to spend that kind of money,
nor take months of classes. I really am not a
computer person, but it hasn't stopped me from my
making my contribution to irritating people on
SubTalk.
Enough talk about this stuff. I am working on a big expose of the whole strike issue. It is all a lot of hype choreographed by Transit Transit and the WWF. Stay tuned for further details. Over and out.
Computers are neither expensive nor complicated. A bargain basement PC costs $500 and you can pay $15-$20 a month for net access, depending on your plan, you can get discounts for paying in advance, getting time based plans (get 5 free hours and pay by minute for the rest, etc.) as opposed to unlimited, or combining with long distance service. WebTV costs $22 per month and your box goes for $250, and all you can do is surf the web, and limited in that even. Your friend was intimidated by computers because of false perceptions, and some people who tricked him into getting a $3K computer (My P-III 500 MHz costed about $1500, and that was top of the line at the time). Fortunes can be made taking advantage of false perceptions.
As for your first thing, any major ISP is unable to track it's users, AOSmell, Earthlink, Netcom, MSN, Erol's/RCN, WorldNet etc.
WebTV classic units can be bought for as little as $79-$99 ($50 extra for the keyboard), which makes them cheaper than a VCR. They are also easier to use (which is why the attract some of the more intellectually challenged people to the internet) and can be easily hooked up to a huge TV screen. I had a computer before WebTV, and I don't miss having to sit at an uncomfortable desk to surf the net.
Computers are better. However, for a lot of us, net surfing and e-mail are the only functions that are desired. Buying a computer just for this is a foolish waste of money.
I had a Web TV for a year before I bought my compuer, and hooked to a 24 inch screen in my recliner, very relaxing. More so then on a desk chair. SO DON T KNOCK EM, some people do not need the computer. I sold mine to a guy who gave it to his Grandmother so she can keep in touch with her kids and grandkids all over the country
I know people who have computers who still use WebTV for their internet access.
Also note that my WebTV Plus central unit fits neatly into my video cabinet, together with two VCRs, a laser disc player, and the cable box. My biggest gripe with WebTV is the lack of upgrades and limited printer compatibility.
And, the bigger subway maps on this site don't show up at all.
WebTV has at least 2 upgrades a year, including one that will be given to WebTV plus units soon. My mother, a classic user, received hers last week.
You can get a VGA to TV adapter and hook it up to your TV, same with a wireless keyboard. This is actually more economical than getting a computer with monitor.
Why? WebTV comes with everything you need to hook it up to a TV. Mine is on a 32" and the picture quality is excellent.
I was talking about a COMPUTER, not a toy.
This "toy" allows me to do as much as you do as far as internet access is concerned, at a much lower cost. I like my "toy".
Computers are neither expensive nor complicated. A bargain basement PC costs $500 and you can pay $15-$20 a month for net access, depending on your plan, you can get discounts for paying in advance, getting time based plans (get 5 free hours and pay by minute for the rest, etc.) as opposed to unlimited, or combining with long distance service. WebTV costs $22 per month and your box goes for $250, and all you can do is surf the web, and limited in that even. Your friend was intimidated by computers because of false perceptions, and some people who tricked him into getting a $3K computer (My P-III 500 MHz costed about $1500, and that was top of the line at the time). Fortunes can be made taking advantage of false perceptions.
You can get a reconditioned computer under warrany for even less than $500, as cheap as $300. Although I don't recommend it, you should see some nice computer equipment you can get if you commit to a 3-year deal with an ISP. Unfortunately, the only ISP's I've seen participating are Prodigy Internet (I used to have them. They suck. Too many disconnects.), Compuserve (I used to have them also. too many busy signals when trying to dial up during prime time), and Juno, who I know nothing about.
As for WebTV, you pay $250 for the box and $22/month to use it. What happens if you decide that you want a real computer instead? You're out $250 for the WebTV box! Not such a good deal. No hard drive. You can't save anything. When I see a real interesting post on SubTalk that's full of factual information, I save the HTML file. Any time I'm surfing the Net and see something of interest, I save it for future reference. Also, if you're making a web site, don't you want to be able to scan your own pictures for the site? Can't do that with WebTV. I don't believe you can print anything with WebTV either. Can't use any software. I couldn't get along without MS Office for writing letters and fax cover sheets. I couldn't get along without Photoshop and Illustrator for doing graphic work and photo enhancement for a web site. I'd be lost without a printer and a scanner. I never go anywhere I'm unfamiliar with, without a detailed street map printout from MS MapPoint. Another thing you can't do with WebTV is copy and paste. You don't think I type in the HTML code for my BMT logo every time I post do you?
I bought the new model of Webtv in August for $100
and the keyboard for $50. A couple of days later I
bought a Canon BJC1000 printer with the rebate for
about $50. (Of course the cable cost me $120 ) I
can print anything I want off the net. One of the
reasons I bought WebTv was that I wasn't sure that I
was going to like the Internet. I didn't want to
sign up for 3 years with Compuserve, and be stuck
with a 3 year contract. Yeah I know you can break
it and give back the $400 rebate. As for selling
it, on Ebay people buy and sell the WebTv units.
One really neat thing about WebTv is portability.
If I go on vacation, the keyboard and the unit and
telephone cable and TV cable take up no room. This
way, even though I am away, SubTalkers will not be
deprived of my irrelevant thoughts. As far as
Websites go, I haven't really figured out html--but
check out the Sarge's website---it is deep and very
much an expression of himself. The other neat thing
about webtv is even though I'm lying in bed in cold
sheet restraints, I am comfortably connected to the Internet.
I do have a computer, a Mac SE-30 that I bought off
a graphic artist friend of mine years ago. It must
be at least 10 years old, and starts irregularly,
but I get a bang out of it still working. I really
don't want to get caught up in the frenzy of
gigabits, or processor speed, or any of the latest
hype.
I used to be into ham radio about 40 years ago.
And I remember a lot of the conversation was about
the equipment that we were using, signal
strength,and please QSL ( send a card confirming the
conversation) It was superficial for the most part,
and the memory of that made me hesitate about the
Internet. I feared e-mails being of the Have a Nice
Day variety.
Look.... It isn't the equipment that matters here or
anywhere in this life. It's what we bring to this
space of ourselves, of our experience, of our
knowledge, of our compassion and understanding that
makes this place important. If you connected to the
Internet with a tin can and a ball of string and had
something to contribute then that's all that counts.
As to what I actually contribute to this site, I
really am not sure. I bring a lot of myself, and I
don't know if that is any great gift to people here.
I bring a twisted sense of humor, that may be
inappropriate to things here. In fact, right after
I post this, I am going to modify the subject
heading on a current thread just for a quick sight
gag.
I have met a number of interesting and really good
spirited folks both on the site, through e-mail, and
through a trip I went on with SubDougie. I'm very
pleased with my experiences on SubTalk and even on
diesel breath BusTalk. heypaul--a webtver and
losing it.
If you recall, in the post of mine that you responded to, I stated that I do NOT recommend committing to a 3-year contract with an ISP that is not of my choice. They can take those $400 rebates and stick them. What you wind up with, is a computer that is obsolete after 6 months. If you choose to replace it after a year, you are on your own when you buy the replacement, and you're still stuck with that 3-year contract. I prefer the reliable connection that MSN provides, and their $190/year rate for unlimited Internet service is very reasonable. I don't worry about obsolescence, because I build and upgrade my own equipment. It doesn't make any sense to obtain something when it first comes out, because you'll pay the most for it and it will be obsolete within 6 months anyway. As for the pros and cons of a PC vs. WebTV, I could not give up the convenience of having a PC with MS Office, Adobe Photoshop, etc. Also, even though you can print with WebTV, you can't scan anything with it. There are also things you can't do using a proxy server or being behind a firewall on the Internet. Alot of online games won't function if you're using a proxy server or being behind a firewall. You can't use it to send and receive faxes either, like you can a PC. Its personal preference. I, nor anybody else will probably ever be able to persuade you to get a PC, and you, nor anybody else could ever persuade me to get rid of my computer and subscribe to WebTV. I do agree with you about one thing, however. Being on the Net is more important than how you get there.
"The other neat thing
about webtv is even though I'm lying in bed in cold
sheet restraints, I am comfortably connected to the Internet."
Wireless keyboard!
"Look.... It isn't the equipment that matters here or
anywhere in this life. It's what we bring to this
space of ourselves, of our experience, of our
knowledge, of our compassion and understanding that
makes this place important. If you connected to the
Internet with a tin can and a ball of string and had
something to contribute then that's all that counts."
AGREED!
The WebTV classic (the cheaper one) is less than $100 plus $50 for the keyboard. You can save pages. (limited but ample, about 600 webpages) You are storing it in a computer, just their computer.
You can attach a printer and although I don't I think most WevTV users do.
You can cut, copy, & paste!! (thank G-d for that!!!!!!) When it first came out you couldn't but they added it soon, about 2 years ago.
Some good pointsYou don't lose your place with call waiting. You stay at your site.No viruses since there are no 'puters. Thats why some PC owners still use WebTV for the internet. Although you can't scan, with the WebTV plus (which I don't have, I have the cheap one) you can attach a cam or digital camera, click a still, and upload to your website.
I am not with the company, nor do I really care about the company, I just wanted to correct some misconceptions.
Now, to keep it on a transit topic-All these threads about spotting an R-142, you'd think it was an R1 or a triplex or something!!!
Many of us are all excited about the R142, as we were with the R68. 10 years from now we will all be deriding the R142 as "slow, charmless and ugly", while lamenting the salad days of the then-all but gone redbirds. Sorta like today, as we insult the R68 as "sh-tcans" and "hippos", while waxing nostalgic about the now gone R10.
It's finally nice to actually know when a car will be removed from service. I never realized that the R30 and R10 were being retired until they were all gone. Had I known that the summer of 89 was the end for the R10, or that the spring of 87 was the end of the R16, I'd have made an effort to ride them more.
We don't deride the R-62, nor did we ever deride many other cars, why do you think we would deride the R-142?
You missed my point. I was saying that most of us tend to get excited over things that aren't here yet, or are long gone. I remember that the R68 generated excitement, and that the old R16 and R10 would finally be gotten rid of. Now, we hate the R68, and love the R10. That was my point.
Gee, in that respect subway cars are alot like girlfriends!!!!!
Except that you'll never hear a subway car say those six dreaded words: This isn't going to work out.
I liked the R-10s from the first time I set foot in one of them. They had it all: a nifty teal and white paint scheme, railfan window, fast doors, and sheer brute speed. I will say this until I'm blue in the face: nothing, but nothing will ever top them. The A line will never be the same again.
I was saying that most of us tend to get excited over things that aren't here yet, or are long gone. I remember that the R68 generated excitement, and that the old R16 and R10 would finally be gotten rid of. Now, we hate the R68, and love the R10.
That's human nature. We go wild over the bizarre new phenomenon, curious as anytning, then when it is here in great number all the time, we take it for granted. When its gone, we miss it and wish it were back again.
(Thread name changed as per Larry Redbird's request)
Yeah, even I miss the R10 and R16, although I went to great lengths to avoid them when they ran.
Yeah, even I miss the R10 and R16, although I went to great lengths to avoid them when they ran.
I can remember when catching an R-16 on the Eastern Division was like a breath of fresh air, compared to the mundane, and so common Standards. Once the Standards were gone, I wished that every time I rode an R-16, that it was a Standard instead. Now, they're both gone. We tend to embrace something that is new and a novelty. When the novelty wears off, we miss the thing that this novelty replaced.
I don't think I'll feel that way about the hippos, when they go. I've always hated them with a passion. I don't care if they were made to fit, 75' cars don't belong in the NYCTS.
The 75-footers wouldn't be so bad if they weren't so...damn....slooowwww.
The R-46s have been granted an exemption.
Yeah, those things jet down the Queens Blvd. express and the 60th street tube. However, the R44 also has some zip to it. Ride it on the Rockaway line and you'll be suprised.
It's the R68 that has all the zip of a snail in winter.
Talk about noisy cars! Yeah the R10's had their share of noise. Acceptable, given their age and technology available. However,as a kid I remember the new R26/ R28's on Lex Ave local. Those things, which I did and still do like, were the loudest. They'd sit in the station with compressors humming and Lord knows what else. The trucks made lots of noise, even without flats. All that combined with the newer type roadbed being installed at that time. Funny. Would transfer at the 59th street local station (pre-express stop), and take the BMT's new R27/30's. They were so much quieter.
jrc
Talk about noisy cars! Yeah the R10's had their share of noise. Acceptable, given their age and technology available. However,as a kid I remember the new R26/ R28's on Lex Ave local. Those things, which I did and still do like, were the loudest. They'd sit in the station with compressors humming and Lord knows what else. The trucks made lots of noise, even without flats. All that combined with the newer type roadbed being installed at that time. Funny. Would transfer at the 59th street local station (pre-express stop), and take the BMT's new R27/30's. They were so much quieter.
In my opinion, the pre-overhaul R-38's and R-40's were the noisiest cars on the system. I can remember waiting at local stations on the IND Queens Line during the '70s and hearing the deafening roar of an R-38 or R-40 on the E or F as they passed. I also remember riding these cars on those lines back then, and they were noisier than R-1/9's, R-10's, R-27's, R-32's and R-42's. The R-44's and R-46's were the "quiet" cars. One other thing that I noticed during the '70s was that ballast roadbeds were quieter than concrete roadbeds, even the concrete roadbeds with the rubber track pads. They were just beginning to go to welded rail at that time. In the "old" days, the IRT and BMT had ballast roadbeds. Its the IND that had the concrete roadbeds. Disregarding equipment, the IND was always the noisest, because of the roadbed.
The R46's are still noisier than the R44. Remember their original trucks? They were quite unique in looks, having an off-center contact shoe. Bust even after the truck flap of the 70's and subsequent '80's rebuilding, they still are noisy. Can always tell when one is entering or leaving, even without looking.
During the mid-80's, when the D ended at 34th street due to bridge construction, R27/30's ran a shuttle to 2nd Ave.in addition to being assigned C service after the R10's were gone. I swear, they had the
flattest, loudest wheels. Talk about holding one's ears when the train went by. I live at the very end of the Grand Concourse, directly over the tunnels. When the R27/ 30's went thru, I knew it.
Joe C
Joe C.
The R46's are still noisier than the R44. Remember their original trucks? They were quite unique in looks, having an off-center contact shoe. But even after the truck flap of the 70's and subsequent '80's rebuilding, they still are noisy. Can always tell when one is entering or leaving, even without looking.
During the mid-80's, when the D ended at 34th street due to bridge construction, R27/30's ran a shuttle to 2nd Ave.in addition to being assigned C service after the R10's were gone. I swear, they had the
flattest, loudest wheels. Talk about holding one's ears when the train went by. I live at the very end of the Grand Concourse, directly over the tunnels. When the R27/ 30's went thru, I knew it.
Joe C
Joe C.
That's OK; I went to great lengths to avoid taking E trains in Manhattan. Did you ever ride on the R-10s when they still ran on the A?
No, my earliest memories of R10's was in 85, when they were being painted dark green. They ran soley on the rush hour CC and the Rockaway Pk. Shuttle. I absolutley hated the graffitti covered R10's that still existed in 86 and into 87. They were the dirtiest, nosiest, most awful smelling things I ever rode on.
My association with the R-10s goes back to 1967, when they atill ran on the A and sported a two-tone teal and white scheme, with a narrow teal band all the way around the car at the belt rail. I never thought they were all that loud back then. At least I never had to hold my ears while roaring past local stations along CPW. Now, if you were standing on the uptown platform at, say, 81st St. when an A train thundered past, you might be inclined to hold your ears then. I never did at such times, either. Instead, I found myself wishing I could be on that train.
Once I figured out the A ran express and skipped 23rd St, no other train would do. It was "take the A train at all costs".
The R-10s are immortal cars. I know I'll never forget them.
The WebTV classic (the cheaper one) is less than $100 plus $50 for the keyboard. You can save pages. (limited but ample, about 600 webpages) You are storing it in a computer, just their computer.
You can attach a printer and although I don't I think most WevTV users do.
You can cut, copy, & paste!! (thank G-d for that!!!!!!) When it first came out you couldn't but they added it soon, about 2 years ago.
Some good points
You don't lose your place with call waiting. You stay at your site.
No viruses since there are no 'puters. Thats why some PC owners still use WebTV for the internet.
Although you can't scan, with the WebTV plus (which I don't have, I have the cheap one) you can attach a cam or digital camera, click a still, and upload to your website.
I am not with the company, nor do I really care about the company, I just wanted to correct some misconceptions.
Now, to keep it on a transit topic-All these threads about spotting an R-142, you'd think it was an R1 or a triplex or something!!!
You don't lose your place with a PC either, unless you're on AOL or Compuserve. If you're surfing the Net using MS Internet Explorer or Netscape Navigator, you can go offline, and as long as you don't close the browser, it will hold whatever html file you have in there, and when you reconnect, you pick up where you left off. AOL and Compuserve close everything when you lose your Internet connection. As for call waiting, I disable it with a *70 whenever I go online. When I first got on the Internet, I didn't use *70. The first time I got knocked offline by call waiting, it was a telemarketer. I've used *70 ever since.
I don't worry about viruses. I have McAfee Antivirus. I download an update for it every week.
As for all that you mentioned about WebTV, with the copy'n'paste, and being able to attach a cam or digital camera and the ability to upload photos, I didn't know that.
As for the R-142, I don't think anyone would make a big deal over seeing a triplex or R-1/9, unless it was in service, because we all know thy're around, even though in very limited numbers. Nobody has ever gotten a glimpse of an R-142 before. I haven't. I'm curious also. Just wait until they're in service for a while. Everyone will be saying "R-142? Who cares". When I got my first look at an R-32, it was laid up on the SB express track on the Brighton Line on a weekend. I was a kid, and all I could think was WOW. I couldn't wait to ride one for the first time. Same thing with the R-142. It's a phenomenon. The novelty will wear off soon enough.
I don't worry about viruses. I have McAfee
Antivirus. I download an update for it every
week.
Until the next virus comes along that renders that innefective. Virus makers will always find something that cannot be filtered out with any antivirus program. WebTV is completely immune from just about anything, except for some of the older classic users, which can be automatically turned off and reset, if you know what you're doing.
Until the next virus comes along that renders that innefective. Virus makers will always find something that cannot be filtered out with any antivirus program.
And every time they do, an updated antivirus database comes out. I update every week. When some of the biggies came out, like Melissa and Chernobyl, the update is available within 24 hours. Now Bubbleboy is out. I already have the update installed to neutralize it.
This virus/antivirus thing is no different than the space race or the arms race, or back when better armor was built for ships to protect against cannonfire. Then cannons were built mightier to pierce the armor. Then heavier armor, then mightier cannons, etc.
I've been online for nearly 4.5 years and I have NEVER been affected by a virus, even so, I still do as BMT LINES does.
You've been fortunate. However, with total immunity, I don't have to even acknowledge their existence.
Only 4.5 years? I had my first account in 1993.....
And I was on BBS' in the 'old days' with a 2400 baud modem hooked up to my Apple IIe. I wish I still had that monster....and I miss some of those old BBS'.
-Hank
I neglected to mention; I only got one virus in the 10 years I've been using my PC, and I got that one the old-fashioned way-using pirated software that came from my freinds.
-Hank
I neglected to mention; I only got one virus in the 10 years I've been using my PC, and I got that one the old-fashioned way-using pirated software that came from my freinds.
-Hank
When obtaining pirated software from friends, just make sure those friends are running an up-to-date anti-virus program, so when they cut the disk for you, its clean.
WebTV is completely immune from just about anything ..
I just saw a couple of threads in this topic that said you could save to WebTVs computers. Which means that if WebTV's computers get a virus, a large number of users could be affected by the inability to connect, even though your personal WebTV equipment isn't.
--Mark
You can't save anything to the WebTV computer. Only e-mail can be saved, but that's in your own personal box. WebTV cannot execute the programs that computer viruses are written in. That's why they are immune.
But there is still a computer network controlling WebTV and being used by you for storage (your html page, for example). And these computers are susceptible to a virus attack just like any others.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not really. The entire WebTV system is completely different from a home computer's system. It cannot execute the kinds of programs that a PC can. If it can't execute an infected program, then it cannot be contaminated.
Can WebTV run JAVA? If so, it can indeed be infected. And realistically, all it takes is someone who knows what the machine code for one of those WebTV boxes is like.
-Hank
WebTV cannot run JAVA. I'm sure someone devios enough can sabotage the software of the main computer in San Mateo. But this is highly unlikely.
So there is a disadvantage of WebTV I didn't even know about.
So there is a disadvantage of WebTV I didn't even know about.
You've got that right! A javaless internet must be such a bore! I had forgotten how dull things were before java and javascript. I guess when I posted that demonstration of LED Sign, the WebTV people saw a blank page. What about all the sites that have java mouse-over? I guess they don't see anything change when the roll the mouse over.
While Java compatability would be nice, it's no big thing.
Hey! None of us has ridden an R-142, the R-142 has never been in the subway, and there is only one. There are a lot more Triplexes and R-1s than that! And the R-142s are new and cool, but I know that that doesn't do it for others, whose nostalgia is greater than mine.
WebTV boxes don't cost $250. The most expensive one, the WebTV plus, is $199 at the most. WebTV is also compatible with many printers. Plus units can also make vidcaps from TV/VCR video inputs, as well as up to 30 second .wav files (as Paul should know, as I fooled around with his R9 sounds tape). They are HTML compatible, and you can write your own homepages with them. And you most certainly can copy and paste with WebTV. You don't think I manually type in John McCains official presidential website on every post I put in usenet?
As for your first thing, any major ISP is unable to track it's users, AOSmell, Earthlink, Netcom, MSN, Erol's/RCN, WorldNet etc.
Not quite true. Most ISPs can take the IP address with which a message was posted (assuming that's available) and the time of the posting, go to their logs, and find out which user had that IP address assigned at the time the message was posted.
The above assumes dynamically allocated IP addresses; some ISPs give their users static IP addresses, which of course are even easier to trace. (Actually, many ISPs will give you a static IP address for a rather hefty extra charge.)
-- Tim
True - but the only time they'll go to that kind of trouble is in the event of a police investigation or if the complainants have already identified a suspected user causing the problem. They'd be swamped just looking for a needle in a haystack if they investigated each and every complaint.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, it depends on the nature of the complaint and on the ISP. Some ISPs take violations of their user agreements seriously, others don't. Some, for example, will investigate spamming complaints and terminate an offending user; others don't care.
You're right, though, when you say that the only situation where you're likely to get attention from any and every ISP is when the police are involved or when you already have some good leads you can give the ISP.
-- Tim
Not quite true. Most ISPs can take the IP address with which a message was posted (assuming that's available) and the time of the posting, go to their logs, and find out which user had that IP address assigned at the time the message was posted.
Look at the source code of any of the posts here. They all reveal the IP address of the person doing the posting.
Yep. Here's yours!
And since everythhing on the internet functions via TCP/IP...
Here's our good buddy 'heypaul'.
Here's me, currently.
-Hank
!-- REMOTE_HOST: ; REMOTE_ADDR: 63.14.37.99-->
Yep. Here's yours!
And since everythhing on the internet functions via TCP/IP...
!-- REMOTE_HOST: ; REMOTE_ADDR: 209.240.200.28-->
Here's our good buddy 'heypaul'.
!-- REMOTE_HOST: ; REMOTE_ADDR: 205.247.4.79-->
Here's me, currently.
-Hank
Hank. So you think you've got my place of origin?
Well I happen to have one of the OBIT machines from the Outer Limits. OBIT stands for Outer Band Individuated Teletracer. I'm switching it on now, and will disappear....................
DENNIS LINSKY: YOU ARE AN IDIOT. DO EVERYONE A FAVOR AND KILL YOURSELF
We don't need obnoxious, vulgar behavior like this on SubTalk. What do you think this is, a smut chat room? I don't know whether Dennis Linsky's post was accurate or erroneous, but that is immaterial. This was totally uncalled for. Take your nasty attitude somewhere else. It is not wanted on SubTalk. By the way, did anyone see what this turkey was using for an e-mail address?
How did you do that going between the BMT bullet and the A/Bs? That was cool!
How did you do that going between the BMT bullet and the A/Bs? That was cool!
Thank you. Its an animation using 3 graphics. The BMT logo is displayed for 1 second, the photo of the A/B is also displayed for 1 second. Between them is a 3rd graphic with the A/B photo 50% transparent superimposed over the BMT logo, also 50% transparent. The transitional graphic is displayed for .1 second. I used Adobe Photoshop to make the graphics and Adobe ImageReady to make the animation.
Another WebTV user polluting the airwaves.
"Another WebTV user polluting the airwaves."
Well some of us have mortgages to pay and families to support while getting paid by the very generous City Of New York so we can't afford the luxury of expensive computer equipment. Not everyone still lives at home with their parents.
So, where did you think that I insulted you from my comments. This is not the first time a WebTV user has posted crap on the board. Were you one of those people? Besides, the $200 or so that you would spend on a WebTV box compared to only $700 on a cheap PC. You can get a used one for even less. Computers aren't expensive. And because I still live at home with my parents, how does that make it EASIER for me to "afford the luxury of expensive computer equipment?"
$700 on a cheap PC
Try $500. A machine comparable to what I built a year ago goes for about $500 new today. I have an AMD K-6-2 350 MHz processor. You just won't get the 128 MB RAM, you'll get 64, and you might get a 6 Gig Hard Drive instead of my 10 Gig. Nothing to sneeze at. With WebTV, all you get is the Internet, no computer. Also, with some ISP's you can prepay for the year and get Internet access for less than $20/month. I'm with MSN. I pay $190/year. That works out to $15.83/month. Also, with MSN, you get a reliable connection. Disconnects occur once or twice a month, not every day.
Dunno, it certainly seems possible.
11/14/99
I just want to inform all the SubTalkers that I just E-Mailed Mr.Linsky and expressed shock and anger when I saw that post this morning. I told him not to be insulted or hurt by that remark.
I remember about a couple of months ago on BusTalk there was somebody (name I will NOT mention) who posted a response to a BusTalker who was of the African American persuasion. This guy went into a litany by trashing the BusTalker who grammar was not the best. This thing went back and forth and got real heated , but not to the point of using racial slurs or the "N" word. This cooled down and I never saw it again.
You know we have a real great website here. Something perfect for all railfans and alike not only here in New York , but across the nation and now in England and Sweden! Please,let's not trash it. There is a wealth of imformation here at our keyboards disposal. So let's not get to too emotional to the point of insulting someone because ideas don't seem to align. I give credit to David Pirmann for this site. Since he accepts no advertising money to maintain this , it proabably comes out of his pocket. Now that's selfless dedication!
Bill Newkirk
Bill, I think your actions were the classiest response to a rather ugly situation. I only hope the writer of those cruel words is aware of what a strong statement he was making about himself. He really put himself down more than putting anyone else down.
I sure hope Mr. Linsky comes back after this, although I wouldn't blame him if he doesn't. Anyway, since no racial slurs were used in the BusTalk argument you describe, why should it matter that anyone there was black or white or green?
11/15/99
Eugenius,
No it doesn't matter. But things got really heated and it shouldn't have gotten that far. That's why we should respect the fact that this basically is a message board and not a vehicle for venting anger.
Bill Newkirk
The other day I asked why the 4 train was terminatting at Atlantic, and I was told it was because of the work on the Livonia line. That clears that up, but now I'd like to know what they're doing on the Livonia line.Train Buff Headquarters
Signal replacement, IIRC.
That and track work, fixing the pilings...........
3TM
I recall Jamaica as a great place to shop. Many stores, several motion picture theaters, restaurants and even the main office of The Long Island Press. One could get off the el at 160th St and walk the street out to the 168th St station and see these businesses. I know that Gertz and the Press are gone and someone said that the Valencia theater is now a church. Is there anything at all left to remind a person of its former prominence as a shopping center?
Karl,
We are talking about apples and oranges here. My concern was really accessibility not how many businesses are on Jamaica Avenue.
N Broadway Line
You were indeed talking about accessibility, but in a different thread. I had started a completely new thread about the demise of Jamaica as a shopping area after the removal of the el.
They did a nice job of fixing up the street. If you didn't know, you would never guess that the el ran there. As far as the area coming back to its former glory, it never has and never will. Most of the shopping is now in the suburban malls.
It would have died had the el remained or not.
[It would have died had the el remained or not.]
Downtown Jamaica is very different from what I've heard it once was. But that does not mean that the area's died. It now has mainly "downscale" stores, that's true, but these places are for the most part what the neighborhood can support. Jamaica may not be a hard-core ghetto, at least not most parts of it, but it's far from affluent. Few people in the area could patronize a Bloomingdale's or a Nordstrom's.
Absolutely false. Look at 86th St. in Brooklyn. The el killed Jamaica. It would still be a shopping center had it remained (although a different kind of shopping area).
I agree. Gertz may still be gone, but other large stores would have taken its place. The most noticable decline of Jamaica Avenue is between 168th and 176th Streets. Many restaurants, movies and catering halls existed there and lost all their business when the el closed. The Archer Avenue Line only goes as far as Parsons and does nothing for that area.
Perhaps if they built a station under Merrick Blvd, that area would improve. The tracks of the J line continue past jamaica Center towards Merrick Blvd, and a station could be built there.
Do the tracks continue under Archer or do they curve? I had a thought, since Jamaica Center is only a block from Jamaica Avenue, they could extend the line under Jamaica Avenue from that point on so service would be back where it used to be, without the noisy el. Perhaps the line could be extended further east than 168th Street, thgoug Hollis. Passangers would have the option of staying on the J or Z or transfering to the E in Jamaica.
"Do the tracks continue under Archer or do they curve? I had a thought, since Jamaica Center is only a block from Jamaica
Avenue, they could extend the line under Jamaica Avenue from that point on so service would be back where it used to be,
without the noisy el. Perhaps the line could be extended further east than 168th Street, thgoug Hollis. Passangers would have
the option of staying on the J or Z or transfering to the E in Jamaica."
And not extend the E train? I can't go for that. What about Southeastern Queens? Shouldn't they also have transportation to?
N Broadway Line
I have no problem with extening the E train as well. I didn't address it here becuase the response to my post dealt with the J & Z lines. I think it would be best to extend both lines in different areas of Queens.
The BMT (J/Z) tracks continue in a straight line to Merrick Blvd, where an additional station could be built if desired. The E tracks turn south and dead end at a bumper post some 3000 feet from the Parsons-Archer station.
The J/Z tracks will be extended, three tracks, to Hempstead Raceway via Archer, Jamaica and Hempstead. The E goes via the Locust Manor/Laurelton ROW of the LIRR and a Sunrise Highway Subway to Green Acres Mall.
Is this your idea or you got this from a very reliable source??????
3TM
My idea, I'm going to resume that, there are some new IRT lines to build!
OK then, I also did a new G line through Queens, revitalization of the Myrtle Av El and extension of the F line..........
3TM
"The J/Z tracks will be extended, three tracks, to Hempstead Raceway via Archer, Jamaica and Hempstead. The E goes via
the Locust Manor/Laurelton ROW of the LIRR and a Sunrise Highway Subway to Green Acres Mall."
When they at it, they can extend the A line as well.
N Broadway Line
To where?
Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island,
Springfield Blvd via Linden Blvd.
N Broadway Line
What about the NIMBY's. That line is elavated and no one in Ozone Park will want an extension of the el. With the Van Wyke El to be built only a mile away, all the activists will stop this one.
I would run it as a subway after Leffets, if neccessary, I'd subway the whole thing (a-la Jamaica, just backwards).
Where would you make the portal to put in into a subway. It is very congensted by Lefferts. Several bus lines to the airport take that route and it would cause major problems to displace them.
The only solution I see is to extend the subway from Grant Ave on or have it go underground around Rockaway Blvd., and raise the remainder of the el.
I don't think any of this is on the MTA's plans.
In my fantasy world, I'd extend the subway as 4 tracks past Euclid, making Grant, Hudson and Boyd local stops. Rockaway Blvd. would be the main transfer between express and local. All A trains would then be routed towards Rockaway, rising towards the surface just short of the Aquaduct platform. The 2 local tracks would continue along Liberty towards Lefferts, and possibly beyond.
However, unlike Jamaica, I wouldn't close the existing el until the same day the new subway opened.
Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island,
These same people couldn't stop the Airtrain. So why do you think they could stop this project?
Actually, I would think it would be harder to stop this project because it will serve communities that have to depend on slow bus services. Just picture yourself waiting for a bus in the middle 20 degree weather and you will be more open-minded in supporting this idea.
Plus, the MTA has a better chance getting this project through because, unlike the Airtrain, no extra fare is required.
Unfortunately, the MTA doesn't want to spend the money to extend this line (A Lefferts Blvd), so, it depends on NIMBY people to oppose the extension of this line.
HEY! I didn't post about the NIMBYs, I'm the one with the Pie in the Sky plans that don't care about NIMBYs. If I were to make priorities, then I would do it financially, not by acephalauts, err.. NIMBYS.
"Most of the shopping is now in the suburban malls."
This is where the demise came from. The Suburban Malls, Not the removal of the Jamaica El.
N Broadway Line
Wrong. There are hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers who don't have cars to get to malls. Had the el been left alone, then Jamaica would have continued to serve this type of shopper. Queens Center does very well with the G and R right there. Business would fall off badly if that train somehow disappeared.
The Main Street-Flushing area as well would not be what it is without the #7 train which terminates there. It is true that many bus lines converge there but the bus lines go there becuase of the subway and Long Island Railroad stations.
The area around Lefferts Blvd where the A terminates is not a great shopping area but it never was meant to be. The original plan for that line was to extend it into Jamaica, but it never got there.
Hollis is more like it. That line would have gone all the way to Springfield Blvd.
"The area around Lefferts Blvd where the A terminates is not a great shopping area but it never was meant to be. The original plan for
that line was to extend it into Jamaica, but it never got there."
The question is why don't they consider it soon?
N Broadway Line
Not really. Mainly discount stores and other junk, the sort of stores that can be found in any neighborhood.
In the Queens Edition of Newsday Sat Nov 13 page A19 New Directions Witch also Represents Transit Workers has obtained a court order Friday to find out why they been barred from Transit negotiations with the MTA. Both the MTA and T.W.U Local 100 will have to appear in Court Monday. If New Directions get the Injuction the Contract talks will come to a halt unless New Dirctions gets included in the Contract Negotiations. New Directions is seeking the Injuction because Willy James and local 100 have Violated Union Bylaws buy Not including the Chief Stewards of six of the 13 divisions.
Several scenarios here:
Scenario 1.) Transfer car-by-car the #7's redbirds with the Pelham R62A's and the rest will have to come courtesy of the #3 (since they have single R62A's available) to make the required 11 car sets.
Scenario 2.) Break up all the five-car units and revert to single cars for all R62A's that have already been linked as such. Unfortunately, how does one do this is something that another person will have to figure out. Then any line will be available to have its R62A's for swapping, provided that line does not mind about Redbirds on its territory (Redbirds on the #1/9 line???? Could well be a possibility).
Scenario 3.) Break up all the five-car units and rever to single cars for all the R62's...Sorry #4 line....Let the #6 keep its R62A's and make the #4 transfer all 320 of its R62's (remember that five of them are goners, thanks a lot to a certain Robert Ray).
There are more possiblities to think about when sending those steel cans to the #7 line as they are going to bid farewell to its Redbirds after a little more than 35 years in service on the #7
Nick
I would assume they will just stick an R62A single in between 2 5-car sets for the Flushing line. I'd doubt they'd have gone through all the trouble of linking them, only to rip them apart again. I don't think the MTA is quite that stupid. However ...
does anyone think have linked cars undone to accomplish 11 cars for the Flushing line as a COST EFFICIENT move? I think not.. The cars were linked to save costs by eliminating multiple compenents not need in a linked consist. Only the ends of the consist need brake stands and master controllers, horn, wipers, PA,duplex air gauges and some other stuff i don't rememer. also in a 5 car linked consist i was told there are only 3 air brake compressors each of which weigh plenty(saves cost by having less to maintaiin and less energy used to move it) so in a ten car train which is now 2 linked sets 6 compressors assuming none are dead operate to brake the train. also in linked car sets couplers have been removed and LINK BARS installed, trainline wires and air hoses are semi permanently connexted.
the electric portions create a headache if pins are dirty or are not mated properly upon an add. Also the air connections can be a pain if the gaskets pop you now have a nice brake pipe rupture. secondly the couplers weight now removed from the consist ( in a 5 car unit all you've now got is 2 on the operating ends and the 8 couplers removed from the non-operating ends save money on maintaining those couplers and the electrical savings not having to carry the additional weight.) hence plenty of spare parts available and i think you now see why those linked cars will never be seperated.. WHEW!!!
There ARE single R62 or R62As. What you do is you do a MAJOR reshuffling of the cars, moving enough singles to have 2 5 car sets with a single in the middle, OR if there are enough singles, move all of them to the 7. If the first idea were to happen, the 3 would be served by either 2 5 car sets or by a 5 car set and then 4 singles. As for the redbirds, they are gone (although they should stay to improve service on Lexington Avenue).
You could do this, but remember that the 145 St stop on the #3 can only be opened on its first 4 cars...Can a linked 5-car set open doors on only 4 of its 5 cars? Hence the requirement for single cars...No, don't even think of linking the into sets of 3.
Can you link an R62 with an R62A? If so, the #3, #4 and #6 would have to part their R62A's....
On another note:
Before the 3 got the R62As, did they use an 8-car train instead of a 10-car train?
I can recall 9 car trains on the #3 as far back as the early 1960s.
They always used a train which had ad least one of the older single car R types (R21/22/17) to achieve a 9 car train. In fact, the 3 line was the last run for most of these cars in 1987, right before the R62's were put on the 3.
The R62's are on the 4.
The R62a's are on the 1,3,5,6,9
3TM
I realize that. However, I think they are compatible.
All SMEE cars are.
145 th St holds 5 cars in either direction. I've opened the front section of a 10 car 1 train and a 10 car 2 train at this station without problems.
Alex,
I have heard from a Motor Instructor that another reason that the #3 line runs with 9 cars is, the 10th car of a 10 car train stopped at 145st would over hang the interlocking and lock out any operations.
I have only heard this from one person and it sound like it could be possible.
It may not seem Like there have been Improvement on the Lexington Ave Line but there has as far as the Service goes. On the No.4 Line
During Rush Hours they run 3 to 4 Minutes apart. The No.5 Line runs 5 Minutes with trains coming from Dyre , E 180 St or E 238 St. In Brooklyn Trains come Flatbush, Utica or New Lots. In Manhattan if the No.4 and No. 5 Trains are on time you should have a 2 Minute wait or less. During Middays the No.4 run about every 6 Minutes with the No.5 Trains Now running every 8 Minutes instead of 10 Minutes.
On the No.6 Line line During Rush Hours out of Pelham Bay runs every 5 to 8 Minutes. From 7:40 to 8:30 Its every 4 Minutes. Out of Parkchester trains run 4 to 8 Minutes. Plus during AM Rush Hours only there are 4 Trains that run from 138 St-3 Ave to Brooklyn Bridge. So In manhattan your wait for a No.6 Local is 2 Minutes or Less. Duing Middays the No. 6 Line runs Every 4 Minutes Below Parchester and 8 Minutes from 177 to Pelham. On Saturdays the No.6 Line runs 7 Minutes apart from 9AM to 12PM then every 5 Minutes intil 5PM.
However When people Hold Train door open for 1 to 2 Minutes the schedule goes out the Window. At 77 Street is a Good Example. They insist on Holding Doors even when I can clearly see the Lights of the No.6 Directly Behind me. Now when I get into 68 Street that is now packed.
The Improvement I think Should Be made is have Police at on every Platform from 96 St to Grand Central and Ticket People who Delibritly Hold subway doors open witch delay trains from moving.
The most Important thing is to try to get a Full Length 2nd Ave Subway.
its seems likely that old habits die hard people holding doors think they are doing a service for others but are doing a disservice to themselves and the people they are trying to help. I wish there some numbers on the amount of tickets written if any for people holding train doors. Folks say that during the 30's 40's 50's trains ran pretty frequently and on time sure because people probably never held doors and there were platfrom Conductors just about everplace. The numbers you've mentioned for Lexington Ave service are on the money for service times people just have the habit of holding doors and as you said service goes out of whack. A Second Avenue subway would be a plus until then we have to endure the stupidity of the morons who hold doors.
77th is my stop and I never have seen people holding the doors. What does happen often is that a train becomes slightly off schedule and the 51st Street Station becomes living hell. THEY NEED TO KEEP THE TRAINS ON THEIR SCHEDULES. There should be attendants at every platform with the megaphones telling people once the chimes sound, not to even THINK about boarding. And then have the rules enforced. It would keep the line on the 2 minute headways the MTA claims to have running.
I spend at Lest one to two Minutes every morning with door Holding at 77 street. Then the Platforms get more packed as we go down. Ofcause 77 Street is not the only bad stop for door holding its probably the second worst from 51 Street. 96,86,68,59 Street also are bad for door Holding. My train loses 5 Minutes easy. Your Right there should Be More Platforms Conductors assigned. But like 51 Street theres a Platform Conductor by the First car. Most of the Time he tells them to step away from the door when the door Closes. The person normally tells the Conductor to F Off.
Sounds to me like we need heavy fines and an enforcement effort. It would be like fare evasion--once people got the message, the problem would slack off.
Another thought I had once--a painfully loud buzzer at the door that's being held, maybe flashing lights and a recorded announcement--"You are delaying 10,000 people" or something like that--at an obnoxiously high volume. If the door holder didn't give up the other passengers would kill him.
Some high speed elevators have buzzers that start qietly and get louder the longer the door is held.
Josh
"The No.5 Line runs 5 Minutes with trains coming from Dyre ,"
That is a real improvement. When I was visiting my aunt, I remember waiting a long time for a number 5 train. She told me that it was better to take the 4 and then the 2 at 149th Street even though the 5 passed all those stops!
N Broadway Line
That is during Rush Hours Only and 8 Minutes during the day.
Wouldn't it be nice to have a N train run every 2 minutes during rush hours. Not the 6/10 minutes it's runs now.
N Broadway Line
It would be nice. It seems like it takes for ever for a N or R train to show up.
In the media recently, Rudy & his puppet police commish have zero tolerence for stuff like double parking, cabbies selecting who they pick up, etc. The time is now for a zero tolerence policy of people holding doors! Get the cops onto the platforms to do something else other than socializing with the pretty girls! A few years ago when I was on the platform at Lex/53, being punished by the TA after being accused by the cops for hitting somebody with my M train at 36/4, it was pure hell. The people already on the train were in a hurry, and the people who missed the train from the platform or were admonished by me for holding doors, wanted to throw me onto the tracks.
The time is now for a zero tolerence policy of people holding doors! Get the cops onto the platforms to do something else other than socializing with the pretty girls!
I also hate it when people hold up a train by holding the doors. But, if you think cops are going to be effective at stopping it, you have another thing coming. All that manpower could be put to better use patroling the transit system preventing crime and making it safer for everybody. Then, you won't have to worry about D-Train slashers.
I never see cops in the trains anymore. Part of the reason is I think visible a block away from me--during the summer there are always too cops standing just outside the station entrance day in and day out. I think they're supposed to be inside, but it's too hot so they don't bother.
However, cracking down on door holders could well reduce subway crime just as cracking down on fare evasion has. As someone put it recently, someone who's going to rip somebody off doesn't bother paying his fare.
Josh
There always is the possibility that along with the 6 train getting some of the 7 train's Redbirds in an R-62 swap, the 3 train could also send it's R-62s over to Flushing, with the R-33 singles going over to the 3to join the Redbirds that are in the best condition from the 2 line, as the R-142s start arriving at Bronx Park.
I know some people out there hate the idea of those non-ACed singles remaining in existance, let alone in revenue service, but if the 7 is going to be all R-62s by next summer, keeping the single unit 33s around for the 3 line seems to be the best temporary solution.
Why should they move to the 3 line? That solves NOTHING.
Given the 3s cars to the Flushing line would allow the 7 to have a complete R-62 fleet and still be able to operate 11 car trains, instead of having a mixed fleet of 11-car train Redbirds and 10-car train R-62s in the Corona yard.
Moving the R-33s over to the main line would allow the 3 to continue to run nine car trains using the surviving Redbird fleet until someone at the MTA figures out how to link up the R-142As to allow use on the line a few years from now.
If the A or C can survive having those eight R-32GE's without air conditioning as part of its equipment, the riders on the 3 could live with one un-ACed car per train for a while.
I do not think so. First of all the R33 singles go on the 3 line, then how will the 7 line will be able to move it cars??? And beleive me, people will notice that R33 single in the mix..........
3TM
Simple. The R62As will be modified with an extra trip cock to run on the B Division. Most people are overlooking this. It's not impossible to do, it's a matter of when and who's actually interested in doing this.
-Stef
That the same thing that I was thinking about.............
3TM
Why not send R36 Redbird cars with A/C to the #3 just as they will be sent to the #6? Then the single R33s without A/C can be scrapped. The R36 Redbirds on the 3 could be stored at Livonia yard in Brooklyn instead of the small 148th Street yard that can't seem to handle 10-car trains.
I heard that it's not all the tracks that are like that, if that's the case, why do they even bother with it? They can store work cars and the like there freeing up space in Livonia for ten car trains.
They could do that, but then you'd still be dealing with married pairs and mutiples of two for the length of your trains. The only way to get a nine car train onto the 3 without the R-62s is to keep the R-33 singles, if you give that line's R-62 singles to the 7 so it can run all 11-car trains of R-62s.
Of course, I supposed you could also split up the singles currently on the 3, sending about 50 to the Flushing line, and keeping the rest at 148th St., but you would probably still need to keep some of the R-33WFs to meet the line's requirements.
The 3 line doesn't need to be equipped with all singles, as it is now. One 5-car set + 4 singles makes a 9 car train. So if 40 singles are needed for the 7, 4 full trains of R62's will be needed from another line, perhaps the #1/9.
That would make the most sense, and so long as there are enough singles remaining to bundle as four-car units, the R-33WF singles wouldn't have to be shipped over to the main line for use with the other Redbirds on the 3.
If they don't go to the Mainline, the R33 Single will be a casualty of the Redbird Purge. They will probably among the first to be retired. They don't necessarily have to be scrapped immediately, but I'd figure they'd at least go to work service.
-Stef
That's why I think the 7 is being converted to R62 so soon, so they can pull the R33S out of service before the weather gets hot again.
Right. The most logical thing that could happen to the R33S is it will replace the oldest rider cars (R12/14/15) currently on the work trains. Hey you'll never know, but maybe another single will get placed in a Museum!!!
Folks can't imagine this, but there was a time when there was no AC, and all you could do was rely on the fans to give you some kind of comfort, if any. We're pro AC, which is what sunk the R30s.
-Stef
Folks can't imagine this, but there was a time when there was no AC, and all you could do was rely on the fans to give you some kind of comfort, if any.
Fans, open windows and open end-doors. The best fans were the paddle fans on the pre-war equipment. Ah the good old days!
I'm thankful that the fans are gone. Not because it makes a ride cooler, but a lot quieter. I can remember certain hot days riding on an already loud R10, with it's storm doors latched open, and fans going full blast. Zipping through the Cranberry St. tube one day, my ears literally were ringing by the time I got to Bway-Nassau.
I hated those fans on the R10 & R12. They were nothing more than small desk fans aimed at a few seats. On the other hand I loved the ceiling fans on the pre-war cars.
Yeah, I can imagine them in service today, with schoolkids hanging off them and thugs ripping off the blades to use as weapons in muggings. Thank god they're gone.
Why do there have to be nine cars on #3 trains? If Redbird trains are based out of Livonia yard, they can be 10 cars long. The reason for nine-car trains on the 3 is because some tracks at 148th St yard can not handle 10-car trains. Use Livonia, and you can do away with the nine-car rule (and the no-A/C R33 singles).
Yes, but where do you put the conductor at 148th, to open the doors on a 10-car train, taking into account the short platform at 145th.
He would have to move from the fifth car to the ninth car between stations to do it, or they would have to just not open the rear five cars at 148th.
I don't get it, the platform at 145 can support 5 cars but does not act this way because of the 9 car trains. The 148 platform is a standard 510 foot IRT platform.
You right. I was thinking of the track legnth after the station.
Typing while drozy can be dangerous.
The 9 car train has nothing to do with the the platform at 145st. 10 car trains can and do occasionaly stop there and the conductor opens the first 5 cars only, from his regular operating position. I have been told that the reason for nine car trains on the 3 line is because the 10th car of a 10 car train will overhang the interlocking plant south of 145st and lockout the plant. I am investigating this claim and will report back my findings. If any other TA workers could look into this claim it would be helpful as I rarely get up to Lenox terminal.
My message stated the converse of yours. because of the 9 cars, only four open at 145. I said I don't get it because the message to which I posted my reply had some nonsensical ideas about conductor postions if the 3 used 10 car trains. My post debunked those.
Reading all the messages in this thread can confuse anyone, as it relates to 145st on the 3 line. If it appeared I was correcting you, I apologize.:-)
Someone mentioned that there is a switch at the north end of 145th St that prevents the first 5 cars from pulling into the station and stopping over it. I haven't been there in many years, but I do seem to remember such a switch that was within the station.
The 148 St. platform can handle normal 10 car trains. Can't this switch be removed/moved/ignored? 10-car 3 trains would ease the crowds on the West Side IRT a bit.
What would it solve to have R-62s on the 7 rather than the 3? nothing, unless the scrapping of the R-33S was involved. And the R-32GE should also be scrapped. In fact, the R-32GE is a WORSE predicament than the R-33S as one would have to wait for the next train rather than just move to the next car. And if you had gone to Bombardier's website, you'd know that the R-142 is capable of taking on 4 and 6 car sets in addition to the 5 car sets, just as the R-62s can be converted to sets that long (or short).
The R32 GE units will probably be sent to the great old subway yard in the sky when the first R143's show up. As for putting the R142 on the 7, the TA probably doesn't want to put new, potentially unreliable cars on an important line like the 7. The R62 is probably the most reliable car in the entire fleet.
Maybe they will have R-62s on the 7 linked into five-car units and six car units -- it depends on how many trailers they want to put on the 7 line (that is a pretty steep tunnel under the East River). And maybe the 3 train will keep its current fleet. But if the Redbirds were shifted over to the 3 and the R-33 singles stayed around for another two or so years, I don't think it would be a sign of the coming of the Antichrist or anything like that. The New York City subway system has had un-airconditioned cars running for 95 years and three weeks of its existance. Ninty-six or ninty seven years won't be the end of the Earth.
The 7 is better suited for unairconditioned cars because it spends most of it's time outside, not so with the 3. And the R-142s will not have trailers, there have been no trailers since the Qs and Standards, those are blind motors. They are like regular cars when it comes to propulsion but cannot be at the head or tail end and obivously therefore control the train.
11/16/99
Eugenius,
LET'S NOT FORGET THE LOW-V TRAILERS ON THE BRONX 3rd AVE. "EL".
Bill Newkirk
OOPS!
FILLER
FILLER
I just felt that typing only OOPS! in the post is a bit too little.
The 4000-series BMT standards were motorless trailers.
Didn't I just say that?
This is Van Wyck Expressway
The next stop on this C train will be Brewer Boulevard, change there for the E.
Blind motors have motors, but no cabs, such as the R-44 and R-46 B units. The 4000-series BMT standards had neither, although they did have door controls.
Again, I have to follow up my own message. The B cars of the R-142 and 62 are BLIND MOTORS, you have just described them, I called them that before. The one who I responded to said they were trailers, I said that the last time there were trailers was on the Standard. So you only told me what the series they came from was.
And the obvious answer, which you didn't list is:
YOU DON"T. You run 10 car trains.
What would the customers on the #7 line think about running only 10 cars there when you can fit 11 there?
They are very likely to shout bloody murder if #7 runs 10 car R62/R62As all year round.
Nick
11/14/99
Correct me if I'm wrong , but it wasn't mentioned here splitting the R-62A's into 6 and 5 car unitized sets. Of course run the 5 car train sets in the wee hours while the 6 cars sets stay laid up. Can this be done?
Bill Newkirk
Which is why they will run 11 car R62 trains when they are transferred there.
11/14/99
I passed Coney Island yard on McDonald Ave. yesterday and spotted not only the much recently talked about Mack railbus/Sperry Car , but also "Money Train car # 51050. Was this car used in the filming out in L.A or did it stay here for the New York scenes? I heard there were two such cars. Both cars are out there for your visual enjoyment.
Bill Newkirk
That car was supposed to visit the Transit Museum, but shortly after the movie came out, a MetroCard/token seller was murdered on the A line in Brooklyn in a possible copy-cat senario.
Yes, there were two Money Train cars 51050. The one you see at CI yards was used for the New York based filming. The other one was shipped out to LA and was essentially the "stunt car" used in the action scenes where it rams the back of the R-27/30s. The "Money Train" car in LA was outrigged with diesel motors (The bulk of the movie was shot in a prefabricated "subway tunnel" on unused tracks of the Southern Pacific RR).
There was also some impressive miniature work when the Money Train derails near the end of the movie.
PS: it looks like some of the R-27/30 cars used in "Money Train" will turn up in the next Arnold Schwartznegger movie "End of Days".
Doug aka BMTman
I was going to past that one too -- "End of Time" previews I saw over the weekend showed some blue/silver R-27/30's. So this might be the use for those two cars sitting in back of the studio in Glendale, CA.
All the ones used in "Money Train" and "Die Hard With A Vengeance" were red/black/silver cars. There's HALF of one of those now at the Glendale studio; it showed up there mid-September. It's propped up at a strange angle. Who knows what that one will show up in.
At least they aren't using Toronto cars....
At least they aren't using Toronto cars....
You mean like what was done (again) with the CBS-TV mini-series "Aftershock: Earthquake in New York" ... (sigh) ....
--Mark
After that quake, The Manhattan bridge will really ned repairs. (Did you see that?)
Yes, sure did. Actually, I thought the special effects of NY after the quake were pretty good.
--Mark
Did you see the "Astoria" marking above the storm door? I thought, you've got to be kidding.
Actually there were 4 cars. The other two were outer body movie props only. All four were done at the same time. The two prop cars were used for the destruction scenes at the movie's finale.
Harold and I were there at Coney Island ministering to 6398's needs at the time, I remember it well.
Hello all. I was wondering what would be the oldest R series subway car, that is still in active service? and how does the operator warn the passengers that the doors are closing?
Which R series subway car has the lights blinking every time it goes over a gap in the third rail?
Are the Redbirds still in active service?, what year were they manufacture and at what time will they scrapped???
Please respond as soon as possible??
Thanks......
The oldest cars still running are the R26 series of redbirds, most of which are assigned to the #5 line. They were built in 59-60.
At one time almost all subway cars had that annoying tendency for their lights to blink off when the car lost contact with the third rail. However, most of the trains don't do that anymore.
The redbirds are scheduled to be phased out as the new R142 cars come into service. Most will be gone in about 2-3 years. However, the MTA will be keeping a number of them active, since the number of new cars is not enough to replace all the redbirds.
Hope that helps
About that blinking of the lights, I might be wrong but I seem to remember that on the R1-9's (which had lightbulbs) there were a few lights in each car that was normally off and only went on when the regular lights went off.
Yeah Sarge, the R9's and most of the original BMT cars had emergency lights which I think operated off batteries, that would come on when the car lost contact during switching. I used to like that effect. If you were in the back of the train, and looking through to the front, when you saw the lights go out in the front, it was like knowing the future. You watch the lights go out in the cars progressively toward you. I also found that effect cute.
I think now, there is a storage device, maybe capacitors, which hold enough charge while the train goes over the gap of a switch to keep the lights on. You can generally hear the AC go off as that would be too much of a drain on the storage system.
I miss the incandescent lighting.
Some things you just don't think about (George Carlin's routines are full of those) and I guess that is one. For some reason I still assumed the lights still blinked off and on!!! I think the LIRR still loses lights at switches. How about the older IRT cars??
As I recall the R-44 was the first car delivered with lights that did not blink over gaps. The R-42 was the transition contract but still used the old arrangement. The earlier cars had an Emergency Light relay. When the car lost 600 volts, this relay dropped out and made up an emergency (battery) light circuit. The LIRR lights blink over gaps because the Motor-Alternator that feeds them drops out over gaps. All NYCT cars with the exception of the R-33/R-36 have since been modified so this does not happen. All cars now use inverter ballasts to light the fluorescent tubes. These devices take 37 volts from the battery and convert it to 480VAC at 1500hz. Since the battery voltage is negligably affected by 3rd rail gaps, the lights never blink.
11/14/99
"Since the battery voltage is negligably affected by 3rd rail gaps,the lights never blink"
Yeah,but they dim slightly.
Bill Newkirk
the R9's and most of the original BMT cars had emergency lights which I think operated off batteries, that would come on when the car lost contact during switching.
It wasn't just the pre-war cars. All the R-types had battery-operated auxiliary lights. The 10's had them on the stanchions where the fans were, and the newer R-types had them concealed among the regular flourescent lighting.
In the "old days" -- before the R44's were built the operators did not notify anyone that the doors were closing.
People knew they were closing, and just got out of the way.
But that was before lawyers figured out how to sue transit agencies over doors bumping passengers, etc.
In the "old days" -- before the R44's were built the operators did not notify anyone that the doors were closing.
People knew they were closing, and just got out of the way.
But that was before lawyers figured out how to sue transit agencies over doors bumping passengers, etc.
I always remember conductors announcing over the PA "Watch the doors!". I remember that back to the days when the R-27's were brand new.
The pre-war cars such as the R1-9's, BMT Standards, Low V's, etc didn't have P.A. systems or chimes.
The pre-war cars such as the R1-9's, BMT Standards, Low V's, etc didn't have P.A. systems or chimes.
No, they didn't. But the newer R-Types did. I don't remember if the 16's, 17's, 21's and 22's had them, but the 26/28's, 27/30's, 32's, 33/36's, 38's, 40's, 40M's and 42's had them before the 44's came in. On any train that had a PA, I almost always heard the conductor announce "Watch the doors".
If the R16-22 series ever had PA's, I never rode a single train with them where they actually worked.
If the R16-22 series ever had PA's, I never rode a single train with them where they actually worked.
Me either. The first cars that I thought had PA's were the R-26/28 and R-27/30.
I think that the R16 may have once had working PA systems, because I can remember a few rides on them with this incessant whining and humming sound, something more akin to feedback or interference, not something mechanical.
I think that the R16 may have once had working PA systems, because I can remember a few rides on them with this incessant whining and humming sound, something more akin to feedback or interference, not something mechanical.
Probably during the '70's, the R-16's were retrofitted with PA's like the R-10's.
R33/36 (Flushing Cars only) are the only cars that light blink every time it goes over a gap in the the 3rd rail.
The oldest Redbirds, the R-26s, entered service in 1958. The last ones, the WF R-36s on the 7, were built in 1963-64.
Nowadays, the conductor says, "Watch the closing doors" as they are about to close. That wasn't always the case. Back in the late 60s, all announcements were made while the train was moving, and usually the conductor would announce the next stop and nothing else. For example, on an N bound for 57th St., all you would hear after leaving, say, Union Square, was, "34th St., next".
Would Long Island Bus be included if there was a TA strike? I hear that MTA LI Bus drivers do not have a contract, and that if there is an NYCT strike LI Bus operators will not run routes like the N4,N6,N22,N24 to Jamaica and N20/N21 to Flushing. Bus routes will terminate at the city line.
I wonder what alternatives do all the riders on these most heavily used routes have? Will they take LIRR to get into Queens, and will the LIRR be so crowded that tickets will not be collected, or they will go around collecting change?
I have a feeling alot of people will be taking the LIRR between Great Neck and Flushing if the strike goes through. Wonder if LIRR has enough extra trains for the load? If LIRR gets away with charging displaced bus/subway riders full fare, the MTA still makes money even if there's a strike. Either way you look at it, MTA wins. Perhaps if LIRR joined in on the strike, the MTA would really be crippled. It's high time the people of NYC and Long Island respect the workers who drive the buses and operate the trains, and if there is a strike, we should be mad at the MTA top brass for not giving what the MTA workers asked for.
If its like past strikes the LIRR unions will honor the strike and will only go as far as Jamaica. Although I'm very much pro-labor and will support the workers either way I personally don't believe there will be a strike. (I have to admit that although I am pro-labor, as a police sergeant I stand to make some nice O/T if there's a strike)
Again this is just a joke, folks
Following the recent stabbings on the Brighton Line, turnstile maintainers have been activating the built in metal detector feature in the new turnstiles. On Monday morning all customers entering the system will be screened for metal objects. Needless to say firearms, knives, machetes, brass knuckles, and black jacks all will set the alarms off. Unfortunately, the detectors are extremely sensitive and people with pins in broken bones, metal plates in their heads, hooks, cast iron stomachs, nerves of steel, iron wills, hearts of gold, as well as silver amalgam fillings will set off the alarms. That is why the MTA is suggesting that you allow at least 2 or 3 hours extra each way to allow for massive delays in entering the system.
MTA Customer Service has coordinated with other government agencies the following services to help customers make best use of the time waiting:
1. The Motor Vehicle Bureau will have agents available to renew licenses, register cars, and take written tests while you wait in line.
2. The Criminal and Civil Courts will hold hearings to settle nasty divorce proceedings, settle disputes with your dry cleaner, and to hold competency hearings for the troubled.
3. The Department of Correction will credit time waiting in line toward any outstanding prison time you have incurred or will incur in the future.
4. The local colleges will have professors giving classes in the street that will earn you college credits that will help you advance in your dead end jobs
5. The Health and Hospitals Corporation will conduct free colorectal screenings in the street for those who are not easily embarassed.
The MTA regrets the inconvenience to its customers but as always it puts the safety of the riding public first in its considerations.
Again this is a joke. I don't want to start off a panic like Orson Welles did in 1939 with his War of the Worlds episode on radio. It's meant to be funny. If the situation doesn't make you laugh, you should have a good laugh at the kind of mind who goes to the trouble of making up a post like this.
Paul, you're supposed to ferment the grapes and then imbibe them so as to pickle the mind. Don't ferment the mind directly!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wrote that post only under the influence of the muses. I do not allow any mind altering chemicals to cloud the geometric logic of my mind.
And if the Sarge would give me a 10-85 some day, I'll find the key to that damn food locker even if I have to turn the whole city upside down. Speaking of which, maybe we can have the guards who search the people, who set off the alarm, check for the key.
All the rolling stock in the NY subway system represents replacements of older units (even the redbirds were replacements for something) but I don't know if those older units were themselves replacements for the original equipment. My question: Will the arrival of the new R-142's mark the beginning of the third or fourth generation of the fleet?
And on a similar track, what is the average life expectency of NY subway cars and how does it compare to other vintage systems like London?
On the IRT, the R142's mark a continuation of the 3rd generation--that is, they will replace more of the equipment that replaced the equipment that was the original IRT fleet.
I don't count the Manhattan el cars as separate generations, because they were more of a separate fleet--none of the original IRT fleet (Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs) directly replaced them--except for anomalies like Manhattan el cars on the Dyre Ave. Line, when the els went, so did the cars.
Looking at the IND only, new cars are also 3rd generation. The BMT situation is much, much more complicated, but looking at the subway fleet only, it's also 3rd generation.
Much of the Southern Division, OTOH, is now running 4th or 5th generation.
Example: Brighton Line--
1st generation--original BF&CI steam stock
2nd generation--BU equipment--some of these were ex-steam equipment on the Brooklyn Elevated, but still count as 2nd gen., since they replaced the 1st gen. equipment.
3rd generation--original BMT subway fleet like Standards and Triplexes
4th generation--R40s currently running on the Express.
5th generation--75' cars currently on the Local.
I would say the first IND generation encompassed R1 through R16, since none of these replaced subway equipment.
To say where the 2nd generation IND ended and the 3rd began, you'd have to know which order was the first to replace equipment which replaced first generation equipment--i.e., which fleet replaced the R16s?
Some of the R46s? I'm not sure, but I think Larry,Redbird knows offhand.
To my knowledge, the R-46's purely replaced R-1/9's.
I recently came accross an article that siad the the R-46's were purchased,in part, to replace the last of the R-1/9's. This would make them second generation. Whereas teh R-68's start the third generation. My own listing wound go something like this:
First Generation:
IRT- Hi-V,Lo-V,Steinway,Flivver
BRT/BMT Standards,Triplexes,Mulits,Zephyr,Green Hornet,Bluebird
IND R 1-2,R4-5,R-6,R-7,R-7A and R-9
Second Generation: I would start this with all postwar (WWII) equiptment if only for the fact of the complete incompatability with all previous equiptment.
IRT R-12 thru R-36
BMT-IND R-10 thru R-46
Third Generation would be units purchased to replace second generation cars:
IRT R-62,R-62A,R-110A and the R-142
BMT-IND R-68,R-68A,R110B and the R-143
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I pretty much agree your list. I could fit R16 in 2nd generation in the sense that, though no subway equipment went to Transit Valhalla as a result of their delivery, they did break BMT equipment hegemony by displacing the Standard fleet on the 15 (J) Jamaica Line.
But I have a problem with R10 as second generation, especially since the BofT IND was arguably the same management as pre-Unification.
The R10s were a design and technical break, but still effectively formed part of the original fleet, purchased for line extensions.
If we were to view R10 as a 2nd generation in the computer industry sense (technology marches on and all that), then I have to vote for the Triplex as a second generation. Its design was considered so remarkable it had a four-part article in Electric Railway Journal.
Then we have the high-speed, advanced material, lightweight Hornet, Zephyr, Multi, Bluebird generation ... a late 2nd or (sigh) "Lost Generation."
But I still go with the plain meaning of generation: first fleet, first generation; replacement for first fleet, second generation, etc.
Paul:Regarding the R-12's,their arrival and that of the R-14's and R-15s did displace Steinways onto the mainlines but no large body of equiptment was retired as a result. The Steinways were used to increase train lengths on the IRT. This was at a time when most local still ran with five cars.
I don't know about the R-10s being purchased for line extensions as the only extension at the time they arrived was the IND to 179 Street. The Culver and Rockaway Lines extensions were still several years hence. They did displace some of the older R 1/9's onto the BMT for varing periods but this did not result in the wholesale displacement of older equiptment that the R-27's did.
Nevertheless you are right about the Triplexes being radically different from the Standards. A parallel situation developed when the R-44 arrived since they were so unlike the other equiptment. Though weither or not this was an advance in technology is a debatetable point.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I also agree with Paul, The R-10s did not replace anything, just added to the fleet, some R 7-9s went to the 4th Ave Local, due to the equipment shortage on the Southern Division.
According to Cunningham & DeHart, the R10s allowed the shifting of some original equipment to the BMT, and allowed increased service on the AA/CC route.
The IND Fulton St. line was extended to Euclid Ave. at about the same time the first R-10s arrived. I still say that whoever made the decision to assign the R-10s to the A line deserves a medal of honor. They certainly did justice to Duke Ellington's theme song; an A train of R-10s was indeed "the quickest way to get to Harlem".
The stock is mostly the 3rd Generation. The 2nd Generation started in 1949, but the question is was the R 10 a replacement or a add on?
The 2nd Generation started in 1949.
Depends how you define "generation." I'd say the 2nd IND-BMT subway generation started in 1960 with the R27s
R10 was an odd-on. It replaced nothing. Ditto R16.
What about the IRT I would say in 1948 wityh the R-12
[ 2nd generation began on IRT with R12 ]
I'd say yes. IIRC they originally replaced Steinways on the Flushing Line, which in turn displaced some of the oldest IRT equipment.
But others know much more about IRT details than I.
The R-12s weren't a replacement per se. Granted, they, the R-14s, and R-15s bumped the Steinway Lo-Vs to the mainlines, but these units weren't retired right away. The main reason these cars were initially assigned to the Flushing line was because their doors wouldn't line up with the existing gap fillers at Union Square, Brooklyn Bridge (yes, there were gap fillers at the abandoned southern end of the station; I saw them last month), and South Ferry. Interestingly enough, City Hall never had gap fillers.
The first true replacement cars on the IRT were the R-17s, which replaced the original Gibbs Hi-Vs.
I'd argue that the R-10 being technologically advanced for the TA in 1950 is first generation SMEE. Id call the AMUE braking system great for the 19th century but with the advent of improvements in straight air, self lapping brake units, florescent lighting and dynamic brakes the name of the game, the R10-R42 is second generation for todays technology with minor differnces.
I would argue that "generation" should be defined by major
technological features of the car equipment, not by which car
class caused, directly or indirectly, the replacement of which
older car class.
I'd say we can identify the following generations, some of which
were still-born:
1st: Steam hauled coaches: the 19th century elevated railroads
and Brooklyn excursion lines
2nd: Wooden or composite electric MU equipment (the Manhattan
motors, BUs, IRT composites)
3rd: Steel cars with train air (AMUE/AMRE) friction-only braking, such
as the ABs, Ds, R1-9, LoV and HiV.
4th aborted: Lightweight steel cars with PCC technology. Limited
to BMT equipment such as the Green Hornet, Zephyr, Bluebird and Multi.
4th: SMEE. Basically an adaptation of an obsolete design with
improved propulsion and braking.
You could make an argument for the stainless steel cars representing
a new generation.
5th aborted: Attempt to use electronic train controls and lightweight
inboard-bearing trucks (R-44 and R-46).
4th resumed: Thousands more cars (R62/62A/68/68A) ordered based
on obsolete (but proven) design.
5th: The R110 and 142/143 orders. Let's hope for the best.
I think you're on solid ground with technology generations 1-2-3, but it gets kind of muddy after that.
And I think the following deserves special comment:
4th aborted: Lightweight steel cars with PCC technology. Limited
to BMT equipment such as the Green Hornet, Zephyr, Bluebird and Multi.
All these used substantial quantities of non-ferrous metals--alumnium for all but the Zephyr, which showed off stainless steel.
The only reason the "Stainless" era got off the ground in NYC is because Budd was so anxious to strut its stuff that it underbid the LAHT crowd with the R32s. Only after that did the pig-headed TA allow an increment for Stainless Steel.
Remember, too--NYC has been the big noise in rapid transit car purchases but PCC technology built a whole fleet for the Second City and, though the PCC era ended in the U.S. in 1953, it found quite a home overseas.
As a general rule of thumb, trains in London become unreliable when they get to 30 years old, and are replaced before they get to 40 years. In recent times exceptions include 1938 tube stock (a few were put back into service and were still running for their 50th birthdays I believe) and 1983 tube stock (most scrapped before they got to 15 years old due to poor design). Do any of the other UK posters know anything about plans for the Metropolitan Line? A60/62 stock will soon all have reached 40 years, and no one is talking about their replacements. Any predictions for when they will go? With continuing uncertaintly regarding Crossrail, I think about 2006, with the last ones going a couple of years later.
I believe that some of the older Redbirds replaced first generation IRT cars in the 1950s, and that some of the older B division cars replaced BMT standards and IND R1 trains. Of course, El trains pre-dated those.
You have to remember that these systems were growing until 1930 (or for the IND until 1940). So by the time the last "original equipment" was bought some of the oldest original equipment was 20+ years old. So it depends on what you mean by original.
The Redbirds, with the exception of the WF R-36s, replaced virtually the entire fleet of Lo-Vs, save for those units which wound up on the 3rd Ave. el.
The BMT standards were replaced in phases starting with the R-27/30s (unrebuilt units and oddballs); R-32s (remaining unrebuilt units and Triplexes); and ending semidirectly with the R-40s and R-42s. The latter, in addition to replacing most of the R-1s, pushed the R-9s and most of the R-7s to the Eastern Division which in turn sent the remaining rebuilt BMT standards to the happy subway yard in the sky. A handful of R-42s which were initially assigned to the Eastern Division were direct replacements for the standards.
Can anyone help?
I'm putting together the Baltimore and London sections of my homepage and need some help.
Can anyone give me a little history and any technical specs you know of for both? It would be greatly appreciated.
Here are my other city subway pages.
My fave web page for London transportation is John Rowland's, a neighbor of yours at GeoCities:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/
Follow the links to London Transport's official site, which has a good amount of basic historical info, or Clive's Underground Guides, which give exhaustive detail of each line.
For London info, a web ring called "Central Line" will give you many options, you can access it by going via the following site
which is a new member itself!.
http://www.antchung.demon.co.uk/tube/
if you have any specific questions then I will tr to answer them if you wish to mail me direct, but much is available currently on the
web with regards to history eyc etc.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
In the main section of Newsday there is a page and one-half long article about Pendergast and the LIRR on the occasion of the new schedules with dual-mode. The article claims that the dual mode service will be fully in place by the summer (wanna bet?). Also the article gently chided them for not doing the major overhauls when needed and buying cars in one bunch rather than some every year in order to not overwork the fleet.
Most of you have seen around different versions of the good old board Game Monolopy. I am working one one based on the NY Subway and I can use your help as follows. In Monolopy there are places for 4 railroads, I am using the main trunk lines in the City as the railroads. I have numbers for each one as follows 1-8th Ave 2-7th Ave 3-Broadway 4-6th Ave 5-Lexington I have to eliminate one of them. For the next 7 days I will take your suggestions for which line to eliminate. For electric company I will use Con Ed, and gas will by the Phone Company. Ok now I will also need imput on the following also. I need the names of the 6 most important subway stops in each boro. 6 per boro. The following stations will count as one 33-Penn Station(7 & 8th Aves) Times Sq-42nd St 6-7-8-Bdwy Lines. The Fulton Nassau Complex, and the Atlantic Ave/Pacific St Brooklyn and the Queens Plaza-Queensboro As One. Ok guys (and ladies) see what you can come up with by midnight EST 21 Nov. Thanks Bob
I always envisioned a Coney Island version of Monopoly (since the original is Atlantic City) long before the New York and other versions appeared. The four railroads, obviously, would be Brighton, Culver, Sea Beach and West End. Utilities would be Con Ed and Brooklyn Union, of course. Boardwalk would be the same, and perhaps various rides and Nathans, and some of the avenues would be the properties. (Maybe you could have sports facilities instead of hotels).
They really should do this.
I know, if the game would be Coney Island, but this for the entire systems. I am putting you down for at least Stillwell Ave vote in Bklyn, ok?
Instead of the 4 trunk lines, why not use BMT, IRT, IND and H&M, or PATH?
I had not thought of that. Let us see if others agree. The 3 old divisions and the H & M.
Or the three old divisions and SIR, or A, B, Path, and SIR ... now that I've totally confused the issue ... :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
how about the real railroadsn new york central, the new haven, the prr, and the lirr.
SUBWAYS< SUBWAYS< SUBWAYS. I will Have Penn Station and GCT. No SIRT because it dies not run in the 4 boros (sorry you people in Staten Island) but I will have the Ferry
Then maybe you should go with IRT, BMT, IND, and H&M--but keep in in the time frame when they were separately owned lines.
How about the 2d, 3d, 6th, and 9th Avenue Els??
I vote for, in Manhattan, 51-Lex & 47-50 Rock Ctr.
In Brooklyn, Pacific St.
In Queens, QP/QBP agreed
In Bronx, 161-River and E180
Aren't the streets subway stations though? I mean in the real monoploy the "Railroads" aren't major highways despite the fact the the game is street themed. Monopoly's an intermodal game.
My NY monopoly does just that. The four RRs are the Subway, the MN, LIRR and NJT (sorry PATH and SIR) and the utilities are DEP and ConEd. The rest are place names and streets, no more rail, and there's a twist to Free Parking: You are busted for violated alternate side of the street parking rules and go to Rikers Island, go DIRECTLY to Rikers Island, do not pass go, do not collect $200.
I going to go back a little way in history, not current, and will as I said use 6 stations in the 4 boros that the subway serves. Go to jail will be turnstyle jumping and jail is the Tombs. The best idea will be BMT IND IRT & H&M
The Tombs and the subway were not contemporary. If you use the subway, you must use Blackwell's Island.
where is Blackwells Island???
That was the original name of Roosevelt Island. It was changed in the early part of this century to Welfare Island, and then eventually
Roosevelt Island.
I'll second that. IRT, BMT, IND and PATH.
For the five remaining stops in Queens use:
1) Roosevelt Avenue - Jackson Heights.
2) Main Street - Flushing
3) Sutphin Blvd. - Long Island Railroad
4) Union Tpke., - Kew Gardens
5) Metropolitan Avenue - Middle Villiage.
And I agree with the others, IRT, BMT, IND, PATH (H&M)
The utilitles in Monopoly are electric company and water works, not gas. If you want to change it to gas, then use BUG, not the phone company.
I suppose for the luxury tax, you could use a fare increase.
Would jail be for farebeating?
What do you propose to use for Free Parking?
Don't forget Chance and Community Chest!
Take out Broadway BMT. For the 6 most important stops in Brooklyn it is Atlantic Avenue, Coney Island, Boro Hall, Prospect Park, Hoyt-Schremehon, and Smith-9th Streets. Manhattan is Times Square, Fulton Street, Penn Station, Wall Street, 125th Street, and 77 Street. In Queens, we have Jamacia Center, Queens Plaza, Queensboro Plaza, Woodhaven Blvd, Flushing, and Willets Point. Last but not least, in the Bronx, use Yankee Stadium, E Tremont Avenue, Pelham Bay Park, Woodlawn, 242nd Street, and Pelham Parkway.
Will you post the finals in a week??
Why don't you make the 4 railroads real railroads like Metro North, Long Island RR, New Jersey Transit and Amtrak? Or if you prefer a historical theme try Pennsylvania, New York Central, New Haven and Long Island RR.
In the Bronx I suggest 180, 149 GC, Parkchester, Fordham Rd., 161 and 242. Now you covered all IRT lies in the Bronx.
I would like to know on when the R142 & R142A cars will arrive, what lines will they be assigned to & how many will each line receive.
Finally, when will the R62A cars will start arriving on the #7 line & what line are the R62A cars coming off from to go to the #7 line.
Please post information on subtalk.
Sincerely,
Michael
From Newsday, 11/14/99:
"Of the 122 diesel trains scheduled to run tomorrow, 95 will be bilevels, giving a diesel passenger a 78 percent chance of riding a new train."
So if you like to ride the old clunkers, you've got a little time left.
Did the R-10's have PA systems? I just can't remember. I thought the first time I heard station announcements was while riding R-16's. I just don't remember announcements being made in R-10's.
The R-10s did have PAs installed but theconductor really couldn't use them as they operated doors from the outboard controls and the mic plates were inside motorman's cabs. Sometimes the motormen made the announcements but the conductors made them between stations while the train was moving. With the spotted wheel conditions, it was difficult to hear and/or understand the announcements at all.
The R-12's must have had PA systems as they were always coupled to later model IRT cars which made announcements and they were pretty much like the R-10's with the outside trigger door controls.
Also, supposedly the R1-9 (not sure which one) that was renovated thats hooked up to R-1 100 at the museum (is it 575?) had an experimental PA System.
R-7 No. 1575 was the R-10 prototype.
Thanks!!! I should have said give or take a thousand and I'd be exact!!
If memory serves me right, is that R-4 484??
--Mark
Come to think of it, I think it is.
Jeff and Mark: The two cars that had the experimental PA systems in the R1/9 fleet were cars 484 and 744. 484 is presently at the NY Transit Museum. Trivia question: There's another unusual item (feature) in Car 484 that's not on other R1/9s. What is it?
-Stef
No exposed light bulbs. There are covers over them.
You just answered the $64,000 question. Congratulations. 484 has Bulls Eye Lighting, which you might find in a PCC. The lighting isn't very bright, unfortunately.
-Stef
Now for the $99,000 answer:
Who wrote Swami River??
Stephen Foster. I stay up late too.
I saw the PA mikes on R-4 #484 while at the Transit Museum last month. They're located outside in each corner, just above the trigger boxes.
To answer Karl B's question, the R-10s did not have PA systems originally. They were retrofitted sometime in the late 70s. In any case, it wasn't until they were running on the CC that one heard announcements on those cars. I know I never heard any announcements when the R-10s still ruled the A line.
I also noticed something else on some of the later cars on display: the drum switch is located right at the bottom of the cab window. And another detail: on BMT standard 2204, the conductor's key switch was covered over on the button consoles. This makes sense when you consider 2204 was an end unit of a 3-car B unit; its door controls were deactivated and one of the motorman's cabs has no controller or brake valve.
Right you are! You have just won the lottery...
-Stef
Thank You!! I guess that is why I don't remember hearing a PA on the R-10's. The last time I rode them was in the summer of 1957.
Not to restart that long thread I started in the summer about them, but the museum standard had those folding jumpseats by the door control which I don't remember on the "L" or the Franklyn or Culver shuttles.
IIRC, those folding seats were removed from the 396 standards which were rebuilt in 1959-60. 2204 was not part of this rebuilding program.
That explains why I never saw them on the Canarsie line.
Thank you both for your responses! I guess that I did not ride R-10's often enough to catch one when the PA was active.
All this PA system talk has gotten me wondering. When PA systems first appeared, did they use vacuum tubes or transistors? What was the first series of cars with solid state PAs?
"NYCTA Passenger Car Data 1947-1968" lists the R-16 as the first car built with a PA system,specified as "Graybar Vacuum Tube Type".(Probably why it rarely worked.) The first car specifically mentioned as having a transistorized PA system was the R-26.
Ten R-15's (6216-6225) are listed as having Raymond-Rosen systems,type not specified,probably as a test.
Hope this helps:)
In their last days on the C line I don't remember announcements being made very often, but it was usually done between stations. The R-10 not being the most quiet cars made it difficult to hear the announcements.
Wayne
Flushing IRT 1939 World's Fair item: suggest checking on eBay Item #200180512.
I just returned from another trip to the Bay area.
I rode all of the BART system except the Richmond Route in one evening. What a let-down. No looking out the front. Because it was already dark outside, the above-gound trips were uninspiring at best, except when passing yards. Some of the highway median stations were more scary than GG stations in Brooklyn & Queens. Not because of any lurking shadowy figures, but of the 80 - 90+ MPH traffic wizzing by. It would be nice to see more of the Oakland junction operations, but with no forward view, you might as well be in an elevator in a tall building.
I was impressed with the speed and length of the 9 & 10 car trains. I guess the cars are as wide as standard RR passenger equipment but with smaller and non-reclining seats. I could see that any number of train lengths from two to ten cars could be operating depending on time and passenger volume. I am sure that the smarter Bay area residents who have the BART available for their commute use it. Although there is no shortage of cars and trucks on the high (Free)ways, I would hope that BART has some positive impact on the commuting needs of the Bay Area citizens.
Dear Mellow one, Why were you nervous about the Freeway, so far on train fell on the freeway or visa versa. If it was not safe, they would not have built it. Bart cars ride on wider tracks then the NYTA I am not sure, but the space is over 5 feet tracks
As a 28 year plus resident, yes many do -- almost 300,000 a day -- not bad until you look at other systems' stats. The fares are outrageous--no all you can eat passes, charge by distance etc. AND Cinderella liberty--no service Midnite to dawn. Other than that its okay. As to safety, ironically BART is very good -- few derailments -- but when there is one the whole system comes apart. Contingency planning/alternate operations areconstrained by a woeful lack of crossovers and passing sidings.
"...almost 300,000 a day -- not bad until you look at other systems' stats."
Yeah, but that's only if you compare BART to other rapid transit systems. There's a lot of people who say that BART is functionally more a commuter rail system, and it's ridership is actually very high when you compare it to other commuter rail systems.
Now, the points in favor of BART as commuter rail:
1) length of the lines,
2) distance between stations on most of the system,
3) lots of park and ride lots on most of the system,
4) hours of service,
5) frequency of service off-peak.
What argues against BART being commuter rail is that the system was built as transit and can be used only for transit. One of the biggest distinctions of commuter rail is that the tracks are general railroad tracks used, or at least useable, for freight or Amtrak service. BART is not only separate from the general rail system of the U.S., it doesn't even operate on the same gauge!
Right you are John. AND here is my conspiracy theory of the day. Fact Southern Pacific-famous for callous to downright scandalous treatment of passengers-desperately wanted out of the Peninsula service(now state owned as CalTrain. Fact The consortium designing BART included Bechtel Corp. Fact in the period when the guage decision was made the ChaiRman of SP was Steven D. Bechtel SR. and JR was a member of the board. Counselor, draw your own conclusions. The San Francisco Line (Embarcadero to Daly City) is the most clearly urban mass transit and is the only segment where an unlimited use pass sold by the City (MUNI) bus/trolley agancy is valid. Everyone else pays the ripoff fares.
I grew up in Berkeley, and thought BART was cool. We all chuckled at the computer foulups when the system opened. "Phantom Stations" was the public term for the random delays. The computer control system was outdated by ten years when they opened. Now the control works more like a network, with small "nodes" every couple of miles I believe.
Now, living in NYC, I can see what mass transit is supposed to be like. Block signals and manual control are as good if not better than BART's system, and certainly more flexbile. (When BART opened they were limited to 180 second headways for saftey reason) It scares me now that the TA is claiming that they will implement computer control. I wonder if this new crop of inexperienced T/O's isn't a ploy to justify the computer conversion??
The BART stations are much to far apart. Local busses were supposed to act as feeders, but there was no coordination from the various agencies (if there were any in the region at all) AC Transit (Oakland/Berkeley/Richmond) made no adjustments until the 1990's, other than looping some routes through stations. They were basically competeing for passengers with the trains, as they inherited the old Key System transbay bridge routes. The whole feeder bus thing broke down anyway when ACT's funding was slashed a while ago.
BART also suffers from a lack of infrastructure, they have no express tracks, and could really use them.
Comments, anyone?
Dave
They could offer skip stop service during rush hours on the trans bay lines
If the stations were about 250% more dense, then that would be feasible. Right now they are far enough apart that there are a lot of local riders. Probably they could try it on the Concord line, because it most closely resembles a commuter railroad...
dave
Pretty well said, David. I grew up in DC in 50's spent much time in Chicago on a 'real' system then 4 years in NYC before coming to Oakland in 7). I well remember the ATC snafu's--which STILL occur--and are being replicated at SF MUNI. BART was IMHO badly designed from the get go from a particularly arrogant and anti labor, anti east coast subway point of view. Even though Parsons Brinckerhoff who were involved is a lineal descendent of the IRT design genius, they still ended up with a bad product. The Buck Rogers car design, the promise of a seat for every passenger, the total lack of sufficient sidings, crossovers layup tracks for major events at Coliseum Station, the list is immense. AND you are right on the money about station location and feeder buses. In the beginning, service was so flaky AC was a better bet. By the time BART became marginally reliable, AC had lost its major funding base and began a sad downward spiral. Meanwhile the Metroplolitan Transportation Commission--mostly ex BART staffers funneled endless dollars for BART gold plated projects. The current giant boomdoggle is the airport extension a design as bad or worse than the PA's airtrain and already way over "estimate." Meanwhile they still don't run all night and the carpets(yes carpets) are filthy.
Geez, I didn't even remember the airport thing. The federal rule that prevents the airport from being an intermediate stop is REDICULOUS! The Airport is in the middle of a PENINSULA for cryin out loud!
In (limited) defense of BART, when the public approved the bond issue to build it, there hadn't been a new transit system begun in the US in thirty years or so. Computer control, the Slant-nose front end, high-speeds, and carpet were all used to sell the public on the fact that the new system was to be something new, futristic and ultra-modern. ie: NOT A SUBWAY. The irony, is that BART is at its finest when most like the MTA!
The MUNI train control debacle was brought upon themselves. Why would an agency bring a new control system online the same day as a new extension of the terminal was opened? I'd say that was the bravery of the ignorant.
Just because something is new, futuristic and ultramodern, does not disqualify it from being a subway. That's the way ALL SUBWAYS should be.
Main Entry: sub·way
Pronunciation: 's&b-"wA
Function: noun
Date: 1825
: an underground way: as a : a passage under a street (as for pedestrians, power cables, or water or gas mains) b : a usually electric underground railway c : UNDERPASS
- subway intransitive verb
[Just because something is new, futuristic and ultramodern, does not disqualify it from being a subway. That's the way ALL SUBWAYS should be.]
Right on, bro'!
Geez, I didn't even remember the airport thing. The federal rule that prevents the airport from being an intermediate stop is REDICULOUS! The Airport is in the middle of a PENINSULA for cryin out loud!
Can someone fill me in on exactly what's happening with the BART extension to SFO? I've gotten very mixed stories from friends in the Bay Area. Clearly BART is being extended to somewhere NEAR the airport -- will it come into SF and around to each terminal? Will it connect to something else that goes terminal by terminal? (A NWK-style monorail, perhaps?)
As someone who uses SFO a lot, there'd better be a transit plan in process, because the current 5 years of construction and the massive new terminal have made things MUCH worse for the average Joe trying to get his rental car.
Off-topic: Plus, a pilot friend says after spending $1 billion plus on the new terminal and all this other stuff, the runways are still too close together (750') and SFO can't do simultaneous landings on parallel runways in anything other than clear daylight. And, remember, SF does tend to get fog now and then. He says that to build a new runway w/1500' separation, they have to fill in more of the Bay -- and the environmental battle over THAT one could take a generation. So SFO will soon have a lovely new terminal, better transit (we hope and pray) ... and no more capacity than before.
Comments from the Bay Area, anyone?
BART is going to have ONE station in the middle of SFO. Basically, the present line at Daly City/Coma is being extended to Millbrae, and the SFO line is actually a branch off the "main" part of the extension.
Within SFO itself, a people-mover system, similar to what is at Dallas-Forth Worth Regional Airport in Texas, is being built. It is being built by Adtranz. When I was up there last month, work seemed to be in full progress, most of the bridgework had been done, though the BART viaduct didn't seem to be anywhere near being done. The upright foundation supports were just being pile-driven.
There was rumor years ago when the parking structure was built in the middle of the terminal "loop" roadways that a BART station for future use was built underneath. That was false.
BART is going to have ONE station in the middle of SFO. Basically, the present line at Daly City/Coma is being extended to Millbrae, and the SFO line is actually a branch off the "main" part of the extension.
This is a result of the FAA rule previously mentioned about airports having to be terminal stops rather than en-route? Or because the BART trains wouldn't fit into terminals due to tight curves? Or something else?
Are there plans to take BART below Milbrae? Since the opening of Colma extended BART into San Mateo County -- despite SM residents having voted in the early Sixties NOT to accept the sales-tax increase to pay for BART -- it would seem to me that at SOME point BART oughta go right down the Peninsula. ROWs would be a huge problem, but what about using the SP/CalTrain ROW?
Then ultimately you could replace CalTrain with BART equipment and have one unified commuter system. I can't imagine there's any freight on that line now, since it deadends in SF ... or am I wrong?
Within SFO itself, a people-mover system, similar to what is at Dallas-Forth Worth Regional Airport in Texas, is being built.
Assume this is like the Newark one (actually now going out from airport and parking lots to meet the NE Corridor commuter trains). Do you know if it's planned to be as sensible as across-the-platform connex from BART to people-mover? Or will there be stairs (ugh), etc.?
>Off-topic: Plus, a pilot friend says after spending $1 billion plus >on the new terminal and all this other stuff, the runways are still >too close together (750') and
>SFO can't do simultaneous landings on parallel runways in anything >other than clear daylight. And, remember, SF does tend to get fog now >and then. He says
>that to build a new runway w/1500' separation, they have to fill in >more of the Bay -- and the environmental battle over THAT one could >take a generation. So
>SFO will soon have a lovely new terminal, better transit (we hope and >pray) ... and no more capacity than before.
>
>Comments from the Bay Area, anyone?
They came up with a really strange plan to appease the environmentaists, in exchange for filling in the bay to extend the
runways, they were going to restore some wetlands in another part of the bay (about 30-40 miles from the airport, in another county).
The problem was that the owner of the land did not want to sell (its currently a salt evaporater) and it was unclear if they could force a
sale, since its in another county and
Bill
the BART SYSTEM SAN FRANCISCO is a bwautiful system to photograph
the stations the trains going in and out of the station(s} etc.
BUT THE BART TRAINS HAVE NO RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!
(sorry) its just like the MARTA SYSTEM in atlanta ga.
no railfan windows very boring to me !!!!
thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com .....
Will you get off the damn railfan windows already??? EVERYBODY is getting tired of your constant rant.
They're going away!! You CAN'T change it!! LIve with it!!
As I am always willing to offer aid to the railfan,
I have recently modified my virtual reality glasses
to have a special railfan window feature that will
enable the railfan to look out a railfan window even
when there is none. I am currently working on a
universal railfan camera lens attachment that will
allow the railfan to take crisp pictures with their
cameras through none existent railfan windows. I
have successfully made an attachment that will see
through the 1 inch of styrofoam that currently is in
the bulkhead of most new MTA transit cars. I will
have to see if I need any level of higher
penetration for other transit systems.
Will it contain chicken wire?
That idea is not as bizzare as it seems. If technology continues to advance and become cheaper, and Dave keeps his hobby for 20 years, the "line by line" section may feature three hour movies with runs down the track, a walk through of a station, another run down the the track, etc. I could be used to train T/Os and station agents -- get a new assignment, watch the movie, see the switches, curves, other things to watch out for real time.
Why doesn't the MTA mount a video camera on the front of subway trains and allow those interested passengers to watch monitors (for a small fee,of course. :~)
Why doesn't the MTA mount a video camera on the front of subway trains and allow those interested passengers to watch monitors (for a small fee,of course. :~)
Its not the same as looking out the front window, live with your own eyes.
sorry but the old low voltage trains bmt q b d r1-r-9 to r38
REDBIRDS some slant 40s etc rail fan windows try them for yourself and see what you are missing before you put them down !!
thank you folks !!!!!!!!!!
You know Salaam, it's nice to have a railfan window to see what's happening ahead of you, but the reality is those railfan windows are dissappearing. It will become a true relic. You certainly can't be insulted for enjoying the view, because I've enjoyed it multiple times.
FOAMERVISION? I guess it's a good way to describe some railfans who can't get enough of the window. I'm a railfan foamer, and haven't had enough of the hobby.
The next question is for Transit Personnel who post on this site. Many of you generously respond to our questions about the subway, no matter how annoying they might seem at times. Do each of you consider yourselves to be railfans? Would it be an insult to be called a railfan? I have a better one: How about Transit Agent since you are (at least I consider to be) informed sources?
-Stef
some of you complain but when i shot vidieo if the Q A E #7 5 2
the redbirds and r38 slant 40 and older cars etc..............
CANT SHOT A VIDIEO WITH A CLOSED OFF CAB !!! question....????
what in the hell are you supposed to do ride in the middle of the train and do what in the hell what????
new york or any place else wont be any fun without the front rail fan window!!!
Foamervision?! What museum are you from, John?
I'm associated with the Central NY Chapter NRHS (Syracuse, NY)
First, I think that you must accept the fact that Rail-Fan windows are going, going, gone. AMTRAK doesn't have them. Most newer commuter rail cars don't either. Life goes on. For the record, they don't have them in airliners, although one airline did experiment with ones for landing and take off about 15 years ago. You do have options. Buy videotapes of Cab Rides on your favorite lines. Or you can search for one of the Locomotives Lionel built many years ago with a video camera built into the front. Or better yet, become a train operator and you'll cure yourself of the obsession fast.
Yeah, that was American Airlines that had the DC10's equipped with cockpit cameras so the passengers could watch the takeoffs and landings and sometimes into the flight when movies weren't being run on the screens.
A friend of mine who was a pilot for American said they were removed because all the pilots were complaining that they couldn't pick their nose or scratch their ass while the camera was on and being viewed by up to 350 paying customers!
That may be the reason why TA supervision frowns upon cameras as well. I remember one day years back when I started out at NJT during a cab ride, the Amtrak Road Foreman cut loose an air bubble that would have driven Pentrax out of business. Maybe that is another reason why I'm anti management.
Several people have referred in this discussion to a Federal rule requiring that any airport transit line terminate at the airport.
1) Such a rule would be more likely a matter for FTA (transit) than FAA (aviation) since it's FTA that doles out federal $ to transit, not FAA.
2) Can anyone give me the cite to this rule?
3) How does this alleged rule jibe with several existing or planned non-terminal airport rail stations, specifically:
a)National Airport station on WMATA,
b)BWI Airport station on MARC,
c)O'Hare Transfer station on Metra's North Central line,
d)Logan Airport station on the MBTA Blue Line,
e)the planned construction of the Twin Cities Metro light rail to the airport and beyond to a terminus at Mall of America (which is going to get some federal $), and
f)the perennial plan to extend CTA's Orange Line past Midway to Ford City, which is accomodated in the layout of the existing Midway terminus?
To paraphrase a certain fictional sports agent, SHOW ME THE RULE!
The National Airport Station and WAMTA and Logan Station are actually not on Airport property. National is across the street, and Logan you have to take a bus to, the same as Baltimore, and JFK on the A train.
I believe that the "FAA rule" is a canard and doesn't actually exist. Probably people are referring to the surcharge applied to tickets at JFK and LaGuardia to pay for rail links to those airports (Was it Port Authority-wide, i.e., was the same charge collected at Newark to pay for the monorail there? I'm not sure.) At some point, people noticed that the surcharge could not legally be applied to a transit extension that didn't expressly pertain to getting to and from the airport. Intermediate stops, placed to serve non-airport commuters on an extended N line to LaGuardia (for instance) would be a no-no, if paid for out of the PA's substantial surcharge kitty.
-Daniel Casey
[I believe that the "FAA rule" is a canard and doesn't actually exist. Probably people are referring to the surcharge applied to tickets at JFK and LaGuardia to pay for rail links to those airports (Was it Port Authority-wide, i.e., was the same charge collected at Newark to pay for the monorail there? I'm not sure.) At some point, people noticed that the surcharge could not legally be applied to a transit extension that didn't expressly pertain to getting to and from the airport. Intermediate stops, placed to serve non-airport commuters on an extended N line to LaGuardia (for instance) would be a no-no, if paid for out of the PA's substantial surcharge kitty.]
That would make perfect sense--why should air travellers subsidize subway riders?--but from what I've been hearing the regulation is a lot more braindead than that, because it wouldn't permit services such as a one-stop ride from JFK to Penn Station via the LIRR ROW, or a dual service link to LGA paid for according to usage. In an area like New York where a two track ROW can cost $350,000,000/mile, that makes effective airport transporation impossible.
So the Port Authority is banned from running trains where they need to go, but supposedly uses airport revenues to subsidize PATH . . . go figure.
well then why does MARTA ATLANTA GEORGIA run their north south line
into the atalata harts field airport so does washington dc airport
BUT SAN FRANCISCO LOS ANGELES GREEN LINE DOES NOT ????
The $3.00 Fee charged per landing at the airports, are to be used for airport, or airport related constructin only. The passenger pays for that tax on their tickets. It can not be used for PATH or the Bus Terminal etc. It may be used for building, renovations, highways, roads, transit to and from the airport. Rental fees, landing fees at the Airport etc, may be used for other things, suchg as PATH, etc. There is a big difference.
[The current giant boomdoggle is the airport extension a design as bad or worse than the PA's airtrain and already way over "estimate."]
The only way I can think of Airtrain being worse than it is is that instead of going nowhere it could go *away* from the City . . .
Josh
I looked out the front all the time as a kid. You could see out the front of the slant nose cars if you stood at the extreme right of the door to the cab, as the operators window is offset.
Its interesting how BART's slant noses resemble the R40's, as they were designed around the same time --no?
Dave
The BART trains resemble the Expo 67 trains a little bit more than the slant 40s, but all were conceived at about the same time.
I haven't been on the line in 22 years, but I remember it was a long trip from my aunt and uncle's house in South San Jose to the Freemont station (via bicycle, bus and BART), but the long distance between stations until you got to the Oakland Coliseum stop reminded me more of the LIRR than the subway.
It really is more of an automated commuter railroad than a subway until you get to the San Francisco area, where it becomes an effective superexpress for areas along the line--a lesson we could use, since we've never made much of an effort to integrate commuter RR and subway service.
... we've never made much of an effort to integrate commuter RR and subway service.
Neither has SF. There's ZERO integration between BART and CalTrain (2 commuter RRs), and until the newly-built Embarcadero streetcar line, virtually no integration of the CalTrain w/local transit other than slow, crowded and pedestrian-hazardous Muni buses.
But BART does share stations and tunnels with the MUNI Metro, so you can hop from one to the other at strategic locations.
Mass transit in SF was a dream compared to NYC--silent trolley buses, cool streetcars integrated with an attractive subway, BART--though slow when you got too far from Market Street, since they have nothing to compare to our subway network.
Fair enough; forgot about the stacked tunnels under Market Street.
My favorate part of SF public transit, though, is absolutely the antique streetcars that they run on the surface Market Street tracks (for tourists & railfans, mostly) while the heavy-duty twinned new equipment rides in the Muni Metro tunnels and out to the nabes.
[My favorate part of SF public transit, though, is absolutely the antique streetcars that they run on the surface Market Street tracks (for tourists & railfans, mostly) while the heavy-duty twinned new equipment rides in the Muni Metro tunnels and out to the nabes.]
But they're great for practical transportation too--I used to take the F Market all the time. The Bredas on the Muni Metro are too big and noisy when they're outside the tunnels.
The best car I was on by far, old or new, was the old wooden Italian one. It's mostly glass and the view is great.
(http://www.mnr.org/mta/cap2000-2004-nyct.htm)
>>Some structures are no longer needed, pose maintenance and operational problems, and can be permanently removed. NYC Transit proposes to do this work on the Nassau Street line in Manhattan ($36 million) and at the Atlantic Avenue interlocking on the Canarsie line in Brooklyn ($41 million).Reconfiguring these structures will reduce maintenance and operating expenses and improve service efficiency.
We've discussed the removal of the redundant el structures at Atlantic Avenue; but what do they plan on removing from the Nassau line? The tail tracks heading toward the bridge?
I do find it cheering that the document mentions several times the need to buy new cars for the resumption of full Manhattan Bridge service.
There was a post a while back that the MTA would close off the eastern (Williamsburg-bound) platforms at Canal St., and use only the western platforms there. Since the west platform walls have recently be restored and the east walls are still in their old ratty condition, this sounds like it might be the plan.
It might also explain why the MTA has let Chambers Street go to ruin. If they plan to close off the eastern platforms and turn it into just a one-platform station, then the ceiling and wall repair jobs may take place at the same time the tracks are realigned.
At Essex, the trains would have to switch to the Williamsburg-bound side because that's where the island platform is, so which platform will be used at the Bowery? Since the trains go through a curve before it, it makes sense that that's where they switch sides, unless they want to leave Essex alone (I can't imagine why).
11/15/99
There's something fishy about this plan,but then again it's the TA.
Now about Canal St. (Centre St). How can they close down the Willy B bound side at Canal when the long unused track (old Bway Bklyn Lcl) is a stub end? They're aren't thinking of single tracking the line! It doesn't make sense. Anybody out there decipher this?
Bill Newkirk
It's simple, you demolish the wall at the south of the station and connect the downtown stub track with the uptown local. Just like restoring the former eastbound Fulton track at Atlantic Avenue.
11/16/99
Eugenius,
So you demolish a wall,realign the track and the TA saves money by not rehabbing the Willy B bound side Canal St. Did I get this right? Hmmm! Wouldn't it be cheaper just to rehab the the side in question and forget about double tracking this line?
And what about Bowery Station. How about closing it altogether!!
Bill Newkirk
P.S. I patiently await your next change in your "handle"
They're probably going to use only one side of Bowery too, and switch the Queensbound service back over between Bowery and Essex. I guess it makes sense to make these two stations smaller. It should make them safer.
The question is: Does the capital expenditure of reconfiguring tunnels and tracks justify the expense? What is the gain?
Trains might go a little faster between Canal and Fulton--if you look at the track maps you can see that the downtown train takes some curves and passes over two switches to get onto the through track at Chambers. If you knock down the wall at Canal, make the track connection, and then connect the stub track south of Chambers to the downtown through track, you suddenly have a pretty straight line for trains to travel in, as well as consolidating six platforms (at Bowery, Chambers, and Canal) into three for maintenance and safety reasons.
Plus you could then have lots of space left over at Chambers (two tracks, three plaforms) for, say, a branch of the Transit Museum.
Is this all worth the trouble, the delays, and the expense? Magic eight ball says probably not, but MTA may yet say yes.
The fastest, straightest way would be to hook up the old bridge track into the current Queensbound track in Canal--both of which are already lettered "J1". But once again, it is better now to reduce Canal and Bowery to i platform each.
Yes, the southbound Bowery and Canal stations are in far better condition than the northbound. For that matter, same could possibly be said for Chambers as well (still have water issues in some spots - just look at the ceiling). Here's a puzzle though - if you close down half of Chambers, you'll have to attach the southbound "M" turnaround track to the northbound through track somehow. Can that alignment be achieved? And all service would have to turn at Broad rather than at Chambers, no?
Wayne
It might if one includes the costs of maintaining the full station outside of this one-time rehab job: station cleaners, lighting, police, etc.
--Mark
Hello folks, I just want to let you know, there IS 1 R142 or R142A (which ever the Bombardier cars) CAR at the Fresh Pond Yard !!!!!!! (NY&A). There is NO car # s on it yet. So I guess the end for the redbirds is very close. :( GET YOUR PICS & VIDEOS NOW !!!!!More cars are on their way!!!!!! Fare well Red Birds :(
Tom.
It is a Bombardier R142. Kawasaki didn't turn anything out yet, otherwise, the plant at Yonkers would be filled with them.
-Stef
Speaking of which, the car number might be 6301....
-Stef
It there is one car or 5 cars set????
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
Ps I heard MTA might go on strike on Dec 25 or before.
I have seen a picture of at least one car at the Freight Yard. Unfortunately, it only shows the blind end. Let me say this: the car from the point of view I was looking at resembles an R110A. What I can't understand was why the car was placed on a makeshift ramp? It almost makes me believe the car had been trucked in to Fresh Pond. If the car's going to Coney, perhaps someone better go and watch for the car on the Bay Ridge, SBK, and West End Lines tomorrow, and get the first real snapshots.
Anyone riding the M today? The car looks like it's nearest to the east side of the M overpassing the frieght line.
-Stef
Is it on the LIRR tracks or the Fresh Pond Yard that the M uses? I'll keep a look out for it.
BTW, what the heck is it doing there if it's destination is the Bronx?
It's on the freight tracks under the M (to the east side of the bridge which the M uses to pass over the frieght tracks) .
It's going to Coney Island as a SubTalk poster had stated earlier. Afterwards, I'd expect it to be the first to go into the newly rebuilt E180th St Shop.
-Stef
I took a special trip to Metropolitan this morning, but I didn't see anything. looking east, I could see some shiny cars in the distance through the trees, but the shape of them appeared to be tank cars.
There was something out there at some location.... The picture that I saw of the car put the car near the bridge. Could they have moved it???
-Stef
Eric, I was just thinking... It's possible that the car could have been located to the west of the bridge, but I'm not really sure. If you get a chance to ride the M again, check both sides of the bridge to be certain.
-Stef
Come on! You're torturing me. I thought you'd have something important to say.
-Stef
Just boxcars the other direction. But I guess it's been moved by now as others are reporting.
Is it too late to lobby the T/A to paint the 142's red????
Perhaps we can make them glow red as the torches are applied.
NEVER! The Redbirds must be torched first!
11/16/99
Maybe the red "decals will be applied at East 180th St. After all this is the first car,not the whole fleet. Once the bugs are worked out and the cars accepted than decals will probably be applied at the Bombardier plant. That's if the TA doesn't kill the whole idea and makes them naked as the rest of the R-62/62A's.
Bill Newkirk
At Friday's ERA meeting, ("This century A-Z"), under "P" for Plattsburg, they showed the Bombardier plant, and one finished car, a mockup, and several other cars still on the line! They do have the red front already on, and they also appear to be retaining the LED sign on top rather than the roll sign to the right!
Well, that answers that question. It's got a red end, and the R142A will have a black end to distinguish the Kawasaki Cars from the Bombardier Fleet. Did you mention the mockup of the car? The mockup's still at 207th St Yard on the same flat that was at the Transit Museum. Strange....
What would be the advantage to having the Route Indicator over the roll sign? I don't see anything wrong with the roll sign.
-Stef
The LED display is easier to change.
it's about time they start arriving!new cars are needed, though i will miss the redbirds when they leave. why a red front?
Safety. Red is the most visible color.
Safety. Red is the most visible color.
Actually, my understanding is that red is simply associated with danger in our culture.
Many fire trucks these days are flourescent yellow-green, because research shows that is actually the most attention-getting color. Red is a very dark color by comparison.
I'm not trying to start an argument, but I, too am curious - why red? The MTA's color is blue...
I think that in that case, your first line answers it.
Fair enough...
I HATE THE LED ROUTE INDICATORS!!! On the R32's you can't distinguish a C from and E until the trains slows down so you can see the roll sign on the side. I don't take the 2 and 5 where they are parralel so I shouldn't have a problem, but the people who do, I got a whole lot of sympathy for you.
As has been mentioned several times on this board, the R-32s have flip-dot signs on the #1 ends, not LED signs. The newest NYCT buses, by the way, have flip-dot signs, every dot of which has an LED on it for better visibility at night.
David
[I HATE THE LED ROUTE INDICATORS!!! On the R32's you can't distinguish a C from and E until the trains slows down so you can see the roll sign on the side. I don't take the 2 and 5 where they are parralel so I shouldn't have a problem, but the people who do, I got a whole lot of sympathy for you.]
THANK YOU! I'm always saying that, I can't understand how difficult it is to tell the difference between flip dots, light emitting diodes and liquid crystal displays.
BTW, the LEDs are very highly visible, if all you've seen is the thing on the front of the R-32 and R-38 then YOU'VE NEVER SEEN LED DISPLAYS and therefore cannot make any judgements.
THANK YOU! I'm always saying that, I can't understand how difficult it is to tell the difference between flip dots, light emitting diodes and liquid crystal displays.
BTW, the LEDs are very highly visible, if all you've seen is the thing on the front of the R-32 and R-38 then YOU'VE NEVER SEEN LED DISPLAYS and therefore cannot make any judgements.
LED's are highly visible in the subway and at night, but did you ever see an LED in sunlight? Can't tell whether its lit or not.
Try figuring out what it means when your "Q" train or "C" train come in signed up as "O"!
LOL
Wayne
Is there any way the good folks on subtalk could see these slides. If possible, please send them to Dave so he can post them, or e-mail folks privately via requests. -Nick
Not so fast. They'd better make sure all the bugs are worked out of the R-142 first before any Redbirds are retired. We don't want another R-46 fiasco.
Or R68. Remember how they were being blasted as lemons in the press when they first went into service in 86-87?
We also have to wait until the car fleet size increases sufficiently.
I can't believe it. The R142 is finally here, even though it's just one car. Too bad I'm not in New York now to go and try to spot it. But I'm going back to New York next Tuesday. Maybe I'll get to see it then. I'm praying it doesn't have problems.
I'll check it out today, I live right by Oak Point Yard. I promise to take some pics.
Hey I live not to far by Oak Point Yard & it better be there today. Why they doing in Oak Point Yard??? Where they heading too???
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
There is a Bombardier R-142 at Fresh Pond yard (NY&A). Tomorrow, It will be sent down the Bay Ridge line to Bush Term. Where TA Diesels N1 & N2 will pick it up and quietly bring it on its first trip on the TA, Over the West End (B) lint to Coney Island Yard.
Dave has indicated that he will no longer police the board, not even to cut off cranks, presumably since many of use have different ideas different ideas of what's off-topic enough to be excluded.
So be it.
But as to those trolls (posting messages just to provoke) and cranks (personally attacking individuals) that garbage up the board:
Like other UseNet sites, nyc.transit has had a spate of these. Typical would be someone who would paste something racist, like "why do [members of group] always [obnoxious behavior] on the subway ..." etc.
After a round of this, several people would post a single "Don't feed the trolls" message, and after a while, the trolls didn't get what they wanted (responses) and went away.
We could try it.
Dave should feel free to cancel any message he doesn't like. SubTalk is his domain, and free speech can be considered as whatever Dave feels like it is.
Well, I think noone argues with that, but Dave says he doesn't want to any more.
Maybe he could give that power to a well respected regular poster to Subtalk....
[But as to those trolls (posting messages just to provoke) and cranks (personally attacking individuals) that garbage up the board:
Like other UseNet sites, nyc.transit has had a spate of these. Typical would be someone who would paste something racist, like "why do [members of group] always [obnoxious behavior] on the subway ..."]
nyc.transit is as mild as a little lamb compared to some newsgroups. There's the occasional troublemaker, like the recent "Hellvis," but they don't stay around for long.
If you want to see bad behavoir on a mega-scale, check out alt.planning.urban or (to a slightly lesser extent) misc.transport.urban-transit.
If you want the most troll-infested newsgroup in usenet, try alt.sports.pro.football.dallas-cowboys.
The problem here is not so much "offensive" posts, but inane posts from immature people who want attention. This is what happens when PCs become cheap enough for every cretin to purchase. It's really electronic graffiti from people advertising their stupidity. David has the right to remove it because it detracts from everyone else's enjoyment of this site.
He should remove offensive posts or threads but I don't think he should remove a whole server with millions of subscribers just because a troll uses that server for access. What if the next offensive post is from AOL or ATT Worldnet, etc, etc, etc. Should all of those be removed.
He should remove offensive posts or threads but I don't think he should remove a whole server with millions of subscribers just because a troll uses that server for access. What if the next offensive post is from AOL or ATT Worldnet, etc, etc, etc. Should all of those be removed.
I agree with you in principle. The difference is that with most other ISPs, an offending user can be specifically identified and blocked. WebTV's chosen system architecture does not permit this. If the abuse is severe enough, it may warrant shutting off access from all of WebTV, which is unfortunate.
Anyway, isn't all of this moot because David P. has said he's not going to police SubTalk any more?
-- Tim
Unfortunate? It's downright unfair. Thankfully, Dave has decided against such an action.
What Dave has decided seems to be that he doesn't want to police SubTalk any more at all.
As for "unfair," it's WebTV that's to blame. They've created a service that (like all Internet services) has the potential to be abused, but that (UNlike other Internet services) makes it impossible to trace the perpetrators of serious abuse.
-- Tim
Actually its all moot because the offender never posted again, at least another offensive post. Most Trolls usually keep on posting. Maybe it was just a silly private joke between the two. The only other post that seemed like a crank was the one yesterday that insinuated NYC Transit caused the flight 800 crash. That was a really wierd one!!!
And just because internet access has become cheaper it doesn't necessarily follow that this brings in more idiots. People who have more money to spend can be idiots, too.
After a round of this, several people would post a single "Don't feed the trolls" message, and after a while, the trolls didn't get what they wanted (responses) and went away.
We could try it.
I don't think we should let SubTalk get to that point. By that time, the cancer has gone too far. I don't look at any other BB's, I don't read the newsgroups, and I don't chat anywhere just because I won't put up with the bad language and horrible attitudes. This BB has been free of all the foul-mouthed troublemakers, so far. Lets try to keep it that way. We need to show the scum that we won't tolerate their garbage.
[After a round of this, several people would post a single "Don't feed the trolls" message]
How about "Ring Ring, It's Crank calling again"
Mr t__:^)
Paul: Well said. These yo-yo's post a provocative message to elicite a response. If we ignore them,despite the temptation to respond, they might go away.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Watch out, it only takes one asshole to ruin a message board. I've seen it happen several times. It starts with just plain mean or vulgar messages. Next you start getting posts with 100k+ subjects and finally, if they are sophisticated enough, they break out the ole Autoposter and flood SubTalk with 50,000 or so posts. They don't do it to get a reaction, they do it simply to riun/kill the MB. They don't need responces because they know when you log on and have to wait 15 min for the first subject to load and then your have to pick your way through inoscent looking posts that contain porno pictures you'll soon find yourself yelling and throwing chairs around. The worst part is that you can't simply ban the ISP because they'll start using proxy servers or go to libraries or other places w/ free internet. An MB I posted to was attacked by an MB SPAMMER and it was the most agrivating thing I have ever experianced. No matter what we did or how loud we yelled or how much bodily harm we threatened, we could not get rid of this jackass SPAMMER. We were about to send complaints to the numerious IPS's he had access to when the MB host e-mailed all the "regulars" and told us the address of the "new" board. This action seems to have been effective. MB SPAMMERS are like stepping on gum. It gets stuck to your shoe, won't come off and it annoys you every step you take.
11/15/99
Someone posted earlier that maybe Dave could delete offensive posts in order to preserve the integrity of SubTalk. If he did,wouldn't that make him a prisoner of his own home?
Bill Newkirk
Dave was doing it for a long time ... it's only recently that he has stopped policing the board, because a couple of folks complained about his deleting somewhat off-topic threads. Yes, it takes a lot of effort, but it helped keep this board a nice place to be.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I got the 6:40 out of Patchogue this morning, the first train to use a dual-mode locomotive for a single-seat trip into Penn Station. Its eight-car consist was quite a sight, being twice the size of what's usually seen at Patchogue, and in fact the last two cars were unable to platform. I got in the sixth car, which was nearly deserted even though the train already had stopped at Speonk, Mastic-Shirley and Bellport. No larger a crowd than usual boarded at Patchogue.
The train made local stops to Babylon, as far as I could tell picking up normal numbers of passengers at each one. Parking lots at Islip and Bay Shore recently have been repaved. I presume this was done in anticipation of greater passenger volume resulting from single-seat service. Whether that actually will happen is yet to be seen; both lots had many empty spaces. My guess is that Suffolk County riders are too wedded to Ronkonkoma to change anytime soon.
After stopping at Babylon, the train went express to Jamaica via the Babylon line rather than the Central Branch. From Massapequa Park to about Bellmore, we traveled at what seemed like a crawl, most likely because of a train not far ahead (the platforms at these stations were nearly empty, so it was obvious another train had just been through). Despite these delays, we made it into Track 19 at Penn right on schedule at 8:23.
Thanks for the trip report, Peter.
I'm sure the LIRR wants to make sure there's plenty of "shaking down" before they start to publicize the Dual Modes big time.
If the service is good, people are not going to remain "wedded" to Ronkonkoma any more than they stayed attached to Port Jeff or Patchogue diesels once Ronkonkoma electrics became available.
As to its speed west of Babylon, it's covering a former electric connection, so its experience should be the same.
If Dual Modes keep taking over electric jobs, this may put more jobs out of east end terminals like Port Jeff or Speonk rather than Penn or Hillside.
I wonder if the crews will like or hate this.
Paul,
Did the conductors on board make any special annoucements, or at least seem excited about the first "DON'T Change at Jamaica!"? Were there any dignitaries at Penn? And were you able to notice the mode change-over enroute? Was it done on the fly, or did the train come to a stop before the tunnel portal?
[Did the conductors on board make any special annoucements, or at least seem excited about the first "DON'T Change at Jamaica!"? Were there any dignitaries at Penn? And were you able to notice the mode change-over enroute? Was it done on the fly, or did the train come to a stop before the tunnel portal?]
There were no special announcements, not even a caution that it was unnecessary to change at Jamaica. The automated announcements were being used as well, and I must admit it was interesting to hear "This is the train to Penn Station."
I didn't see anything special at Penn, but there was a stairway right by the train door where I exited and I went upstairs right away. It's possible that some ceremony was taking place elsewhere along the platform. Unfortunately, I had a lot of stuff to do at work and couldn't take the time to look.
Finally, I wasn't able to detect the change-over. It must have happened on the fly as we went straight into the tunnels without stopping.
Where is the change over made? I would assume once it hit third rails such as Babylon however you intimated it was just before the tunnel. Do you or anyone know for sure?? Does the loco become much quieter??
[Where is the change over made? I would assume once it hit third rails such as Babylon however you intimated it was just before the tunnel. Do you or anyone know for sure?? Does the loco become much quieter??]
I had heard that the dual-modes will run diesel except in the East River tunnels and Penn Station, so I'm assuming that the change over took place right before the portal. I don't know for sure, though.
I heard somewhere it is more efficent to run the diesel's in Diesel mode as long as possible.
Why?
LIRR timetable special instructions prohibit dual mode engines from being used in third rail mode east of Jamaica, except on the Port Washington branch. There they may be run all the way to PW.
That's what mine says from back when I was a NY&A engineer. It may be different now. I'd of thought to save on fuel they would run off the rail all the way if possible, but I guess not.
Thought the new train would be running this morning, but the FL9's
Mike and Kevin were still at it pulling the "Bitanic."
In this am's Times there is an article of interns and hours of work/rest. Sadly even though NY has some of the few laws regulating such hours, it appears they are still very lax compared to say RR or airline workers or truckers. ...R-46 and others have correctly called for better rest cycles for RTO employees AND this is a legitimate issue for collective bargaing given the abject failure of either NY state or federal regulators.
The hours/rest/safety at the TA is nothing compared with the trucking industry. My father in law knows lots of truckers. No one tells them to break the rules, but they are told to meet schedules that can only be met by driving long distances without rest and breaking the speed limit.
Were it not for the tolerance of this danger, trucking would be less competitive with rail, since a train may have hundreds of cars operated by three men in a cab, one of which may be sleeping. A train could in theory go coast to coast non-stop, while providing plenty of rest for the operator, and a low ratio of workers to freight. To match it, you've got zombies behind the wheel.
Give me some numbers for your CDLs. The TA says an employee can't work more than sixteen hours except in an emergency. The FRA says twelve. I wouldn't be surprised if truckers don't accurately log their hours of service as vigorously as engineers and other railroad train service personel. In TA, we don't have to ANSWER to any inspectors such as the DOT or FRA inspector. Our record of crews used to be signed by a dispatcher in pencil! There is no scrutiny of time worked by train operators or conductors at all by supervisory personel. Timekeeping and the line superintendants are usually the first notified of violations which is long after the fact. A local supervisor might be able to check on the hours of work provided they attempt to do so or have a working computer which is the other half of the overtime scenario. The only time a superintendant cries about a man or woman making too much is either when they make more than the superintendant does or when an employee who is "capped" is still permitted to work by a supervisor who is unaware.
NYCTA is exempt from FRA rules hehe...
HE HE. And because of that, train collisions are threefold over 1986 statistics with many injuries and fatalites. Robert Ray. Layton Gibson. Anthony Derosa. How many of your beloved railcars at Coney Island Yard might still be in service if not for forced overtime, removal of key braking equipment, signal mods and what have you? That is one of the reasons I would stand proud on a picket line. You still laughing? Because the government scrutinizes the safety pertaining to air and heavy rail traffic but looks the other way when it comes to the NYCTA should be a crime in itself and discriminatory because LIRR and Metro North get the safer transport then those city slickers who shell out a buck fifty down here. Why? Path HAS the oversight and they charge less than the TA. Now thats funny! The real joke is that the Straphanger's Association blows more smoke through the newspaper than OSHA, System Safety and the Inspector General. An outside agency oversight is necessary but the government agencies that you pay for with your tax dollars are LOOKING THE OTHER WAY and NYC voters don't care. I guess the joke is on you. HEHE
No joke on me, why would you need ditch lighting and grab irons at every door on the subway?
Sounding a horn entering exiting portals and a 12 hr drop dead rule? I can hear all that OT go out the window.
Ok admittedly not all the FRA regulations are relevant
here. But hours of service and equipment standards are!
Next time you or your wife and children are taking the
subway, ask yourself this:
The flagger on the road bed, has he worked 14 days
continuously? Probably.
The conductor in charge of your train, has he been working
since four AM after working till eight PM last night?
Likely.
The motorman of the folowing train, has he been working
for 12 or 14 hours? Maybe?
Has the tower operator at the next interlocking worked a
midnight job last week where he got home at 6 AM, and now
after one day off, he's coming in at 6 AM? Possibly.
These are unsafe acts that have contributed to many
accidents and at least one fatality in the subway in
recent years. And they are also acts that are prohibited
under FRA rules. And had they been enforced here, millions
would have been saved, and the life of motorman Layton
Gibson would have been preserved.
During contract negotiations, management absoulutely
REFUSED to discuss this issue.
I THOUGHT THEY WERE SERIOUS ABOUT SAFETY?
I've just run across a Web site MBTA Gallery of the Absurd! which you might enjoy...
Interesting site, Todd. Sure does shed some light on both passengers, and the MBTA themselves too. -Nick
This site has some funny things one man has noted on the T.
It's worth a larf.
I often take the 5:10PM from Penn to Lindenhurst. From what I've read here, it seems this train will now be combined with another train to Speonk, and will be running Bi-levels with the new Dual Mode engine. Did I get this right? Is this going to start today as I also read here? Does this also mean that all the passengers getting on the Speonk train at Jam. will now be getting on this train, possibly at Penn as well as Jamaica? I guess what I'm trying to see is if this train is now going to be alot more crowded. Seems likely. Since I take the Babylon line to Lindenhurst, I haven't had an opportunity to ride the Bi-levels, and I'm looking foward to getting a chance.
[I often take the 5:10PM from Penn to Lindenhurst. From what I've read here, it seems this train will now be combined with another train to Speonk, and will be running Bi-levels with the new Dual Mode engine. Did I get this right? Is this going to start today as I also read here? Does this also mean that all the passengers getting on the Speonk train at Jam. will now be getting on this train, possibly at Penn as well as Jamaica? I guess what I'm trying to see is if this train is now going to be alot more crowded. Seems likely. Since I take the Babylon line to Lindenhurst, I haven't had an opportunity to ride the Bi-levels, and I'm looking foward to getting a chance.]
I took a dual-mode through train from Patchogue this morning (as I noted in another thread), which was combined with a train that used to originate at Babylon. It wasn't terribly crowded, and I don't imagine that the 5:10 will be either. It used eight bi-level cars with plenty of seating capacity, and in any rate the east-of-Babylon ridership is fairly low to begin with.
You will certainly like the bilevels. The seats are 100% better than those on the electrics - they're actually designed for normal, non-anorexic human beings and there are no ghastly middle seats!!
This morning, a Sub Talker posted a message regarding an R142 sighting. I am writing this message to officially confirm that. There is something here in NYC. Just a little over an hour ago, I spotted the local freight train crossing the Hell Gate Bridge, coming into the Bronx from Queens. What did I find at the end of the freight train??? A SUBWAY CAR!!!!!! The R142 (just one car) is on a flat car being pulled to Oak Point Yard. But why is this happening??? It's supposed to be heading to Coney Island tomorrow. I think it's heading in the wrong direction. I'm off to Oak Point Yard to investigate. I'll report back later. Could someone shed light on this situaution? Steve (if you're reading this)? What about it??
-Stef
The cynic in me would say they've already found a problem and are sending it back to Canada, but they may have decided to either do a locomotive transfer at Oak Point or might for sume reason be taking it up to the Kawasaki site in Yonkers.
Yeah. I suppose anything's possible. It's time to get over to the Kawasaki Plant in Yonkers and see if anything peculiar has showed up.....
-Stef
I came back from Oak Point Freight Yard and what did I find? Nothing!!! I'm certain that the car is there. It is unfortunately tucked away in a part of the yard that I couldn't see. That still doesn't explain why the car has come into the Bronx. There's no reason for it. Is it going to be trucked from somewhere in the Bronx to a TA location?
I can't help but wonder. One thing that was surprising was that the car was able to clear through Hell Gate. I didn't think that the car in question would clear the catenary.
What could happen next?
-Stef
Just to add a little bit more tantilizing Info to this thread
I started School Car on Monday for Train Operator and I picked in the A Div. The instructor told us there is very good possibility that we will be the first School Car class trained on the R-142's. Something about Mid-December. I will let you all know any Info as I get it.
I wonder, since the R142's were originally set to arrive in May, and have been delayed for six months (because the MTA wasn't happy with their performance), if once they get here, testing will be minimal before entering revenue service. I know that usually there is a minimum six month testing period, but perhaps lots of that testing has gone on right at Bombardier's plant. If Mike is right about getting trained on the R142's in Mid-december, would they really train on brand new, untested equipment? Somehow I doubt that. -Nick
If and I stress "IF" the School Car plan comes to pass, I don't see why fresh, impresionable, and open minded rookies would not make great guniea pigs for new equipment.
Thank you, thank you! I'll be watching for those cars. Hopefully, they'll be up on the IRT shortly. As was the case with the R110A, I expect the entrance to the IRT will be made with a pair of diesels. The first R142 will run with the diesels until that fateful comes when it's time to uncouple and Voila! The R142 is now a living breed of animal, free to roam the territory it calls home. E180th St is ready to take in these large behemoths.
Good luck with School Car Training. Knock 'em dead!!! I hope if I get my foot in the door in a few years, I'll be able to operate these and the last surviving Redbirds. I will watch for the R142s as they will pass my window on the 2/5 lines, heading up to E180th St. Stay tuned...
By the way, if there's anyone going down to C.I. Yard, look in and check and see if there's any new cars and report back won't you?
-Stef
Thanks, any new INFO I get about the R-142's I will pass along.
It would have to go to LIRR trackage to come in to Linden Yard. I have received photos of one of the cars at Linden unloaded via a special ramp constructed for the purpose of rolling the cars off the flats.
Thanks for the info, Stef! were you able to see only the sides of the car, or the front and back too? I wonder if (the front and back) is half black and half red, like the design that was updated a few months ago on Bombardier's website. Hopefully someone can get some snapshots soon!! -Nick
Your welcome... It was an accident that I spotted the car coming across the Hell Gate Bridge, but I could only catch a glimpse of it from my apartment window with a pair of binoculars. From my angle, I couldn't see the front end of the car, only the back end and the sides. I will say that the car definitely resembles an R110A. I'll try and stop by Oak Point Yard again to see if anything peculiar comes that way and I'll report back if possible.
Personally, I didn't think the car mounted on a flat could clear the North East Corridor overhead. I was wrong!!!! We're still a short time away from the cars coming up to the IRT, but it will happen. It's time to open up the E180th St Shop.
-Stef
Harry,
These photos - are they in digital form (.gif, jpg)?
If so could you make the available?
That still doesn't explain why this one car travelled to Oak Point instead of getting over to Linden, or the piers, as intended. Are we missing one car in that set?
-Stef
I found it interesting that the TA went with the route indicator located on the top center of the car (like the R110A) instead of the roll sign on the front left side (like the R110B and the R142 mockup).
Will all the route symbols show as one color like they do on the rebuilt R38's or did they finally work in the ability to display different colors.
I thought that they had dropped that idea? Supposedly passengers couldn't see the indicator that well. A lit roll sign is easier to see.
The R110A had a route indicator that would change color depending on the number. If it's a 2, then it will be red. If it's a 5, then the color of the route indicator will be green. The R142 would have the same feature. In no way would it be like the LED that you see on an R32/38.
-Stef
That thing on the R-32/8 is NOT a Light Emitting Diode display, had it been, I'm pretty sure it would have been easier to read, like on the R110. As for what it is, it's a flip-dot.
Hate to say I told you so.
I saw a great movie over the weekend called "The Bone Collecter". It was the biggest box office feature last week, and I was proud that I had the murderer pegged about a third of the way through.(I fancy myself as an ameteur sleuth). But I saw some antiquated subway scenes that perked up my interest. Was there ever a station called Navy Street? I thought Brooklyn Bridge was the furthest south in Manhattan but if Navy Street ( at the tip of Manhattan they said) was indeed a station so much for that piece of knowledge. In addition, one of the cars had written on it 168th Street-Washington Heights. Is this so, and what train went there? It sounds like a Manhattan-Bronx train. I know that the "A" train (Steve B8AVEXP's favorite) goes to 207th St, but was this 168th Street ever the terminal stop for it, or for what train? A great movie made better by seeing the remains of some disused stations and worn outs subway cars.
[I saw a great movie over the weekend called "The Bone Collecter". It was the biggest box office feature last week, and I was proud that I had the murderer pegged about a third of the way through.(I fancy myself as an ameteur sleuth). But I saw some antiquated subway scenes that perked up my interest. Was there ever a station called Navy Street? I thought Brooklyn Bridge was the furthest south in Manhattan but if Navy Street ( at the tip of Manhattan they said) was indeed a station so much for that piece of knowledge.]
Navy Street was a station in Brooklyn on the Myrtle Avenue El. It was demolished along with most of the rest of the El in the late 1960s. I have never heard of a street (or station) called Navy Street in Manhattan.
Pete: You may be right on that, but the station was not elevated. It was underground. What subway train ran underground along that route?
I heard the guy say in the movie, lower Manhattan, Navy Street, and there was a map displayed. Could it be a bogus map of the subweay system of lower Manhattan?
[You may be right on that, but the station [Navy Street] was not elevated. It was underground. What subway train ran underground
along that route?
I heard the guy say in the movie, lower Manhattan, Navy Street, and there was a map displayed. Could it be a bogus map of the subweay system of lower Manhattan?]
Navy Street and all the other stops along the Myrtle Avenue line were elevated stations. The G train operates underground in (very) roughly the same area, but has never had a Navy Street station. As I mentioned earlier, there never has been a Navy Street in Manhattan, so that map is surely fake.
It sounds to me as if the film-makers weren't terribly concerned with accuracy when it comes to the subway.
Speaking of new movies, the previws for End of Days are FILLED with subway scenes. They look like R30 cars (can you say: reused from Money Train, Die Hard 3, Godzilla, etc). We shall see....
Thanks Dave. I will make sure I see End of Days.
It look like there is also a older subway car in the movie as well, the kind that BMT lines have in his logo????????
3TM
I noticed that in the previews too -- but the R-27/30 cars shown were blue and silver MTA paint scheme. I wonder if these aren't the two cars that are resting on the dirt lot behind a studio in Glendale, California?
All the cars in "Money Train" and "Die Hard 3" were red ones (except for 51050, the revenue car in stainless steel).
Speaking of that -- last night CBS was running "Aftershock" (which I didn't bother with, saw too many previews with Toronto subway....) but I was flipping channels earlier, and, funny thing, Fox was running "Earthquake" in NY" which stole many scenes from "Money Train" using 8408 and 51050 crashing into each other, then 51050 sliding sideways in the phony tunnel in LA. Then, all the trapped passengers were fishing their way out of another car -- you guessed it, from Toronto!!
So you would or wouldn't watch the film just because of the subway cars?
Once I saw the previews -- not only the use of Toronto subway cars -- but other very hokey looking scenes turned me off as well. I'm just not into having my intelligence insulted by the boob tube.
And besides, it ran from 9:00 p.m. to 11:00 p.m. I've got to get up at 3:30 a.m. to go out and drive a transit bus for a living. I didn't even bother wasting the time setting up the VCR.
There is no Navy Street in Manhattan (although that's been covered), nor is Brooklyn Bridge the southernmost station in Manhattan, didn't you come to New York recently? There's a lot further south of the Bridge, like the Battery Tunnel when it comes to river crossings. Anyway, the furthest south station is South Ferry on the #1 and #9. 168 is served by the A which stops there and goes on, and the C, which terminates there. Before March 1, 1998, the B would go there Weekdays, with the C on Weekends.
P.S. I've taken the liberty of correcting the subject line.
Thanks on both counts. Yes, South Ferry is the Southernmost station in lower Manhattan. I should have remembered that because of the hassle we had trying to exit the train. (Only the first cars can exit and the acoustics were so bad no one heard.) To look at the map they showed in the movie, however, it looked like the Navy St they were talking about was at the tip of lower Manhattan. Go see the Bone Collector. It's a great movie, and see if you can pick out who the murderer is.
Yes, very good movie.
Looks like a bit of artistic license was used with regards to the "subway" scenes near the end of the movie.
The "map" that they showed depicting the "abanodoned" subway looked tome like they were showing this line to have come straight down Park Avenue, into Broadway, not curving at all near City Hall, then bending towards Brooklyn about where the BMT Montague Street tunnels would be. Plus, the so-called abandoned route showed the South Ferry loop!!
There was never a "Navy Street" station in Manhattan. There is NO Navy Street in Manhattan. There WAS an elevated station at Myrtle Avenue & Navy Street before the Myrtle elevated was demolished.
The subway car depicted in these scenes looked to be a remnant of one of the IND R-1/9 cars; hence, the "168th Street-Washington Heights" destination sign. It looks to me, from my days of growing up riding those R-1/9's -- as well as checking out the headsign scans at Joe Korman's web pages -- that the signs were REAL signs. The only thing amiss about this buried R-1/9 type car was the car number, but that was altered to coincide with the plot of the movie.
On the R-1/9s, destination roller curtains gave the branch line first, then the street: Wash. Hts-168th St. As in AA and BB. On the R-27s, R-30s, R-32s, and R-38s, this was reversed. Of course, it was possible to set the bulkhead curtains so the order was reversed.
Note to Sea Beach Fred: you're not alone as far as confusion at South Ferry is concerned. My aunt experienced the very same thing in 1959. After about the second or third pass through the station, she found the conductor, who explained that you have to be in the first five cars if you want to get off at South Ferry. She doesn't remember if they were Lo-Vs or R units.
I was joined by Thurston for an "Unofficial" walk of the Bay Ridge Branch. This is something that I hadn't done since Feb of this year. Perhaps in March a more official SubTalk organized trip can be formed.
In any event the weather was good for the walk which started down the street from the "Bluebird Diner" at Glenwood and Utica. (K. Walsh take note: this is one of the few fully functional 1950's era stainless steel diners in the outer boroughs).
There is a pathway to the embankment of the Bay Ridge Line from the intersection of Schenectady Ave. & Glenwood Rd. We did an eastward walk to see how Seyfried's old hand-drawn maps compared with the present configuration of the route. Turns out that much has changes since he made his drawings in the early 60s. Most of the line in the East Flatbush/Rugby section is a single track with one or two areas were switches were installed for a 'run-around' track where equipment could be sided for loading of scap metal and whatnot without prevent the bottlenecking of standard through-freight traffic.
The condition of the single mainline track can best be summed up as fair to extremely poor. We couldn't go more than a few yards of track before we came upon totally-rotted and plateless ties. No wonder the frieght trains can't go faster than 5 MPH at some points (and that's on a straightaway!) We got the impression that some ties hadn't been replaced since the line ran passenger service (1920's).
We walked past the Linden Shops, where there was a stub-end track that formerly went into the current TA yard that was now completely severed and showed signs of not having been used in quite awhile. At that point the Bay Ridge turns north and begins to parallel the Canarsie Line and things got interesting: we stopped next to the opening of the spare-rail yard where there is the end/beginning of the wye connection to the New Lots IRT Line and the BMT (just outside Livionia station on the L Line).
We ventured past alot of junk on the roadbed entering the Van Sinderin cut/viaduct. We saw a dilapidated boxcar (w/o trucks) and another one down underneath the Sutter Ave. station that looks like it was once occupied by the homeless. Nearby was the recycling center at Liberty and Junius Sts. They had three well-filled gondolas on a siding that appearred to have recently been extended several car lengths southward (I suppose business is booming over there?).
Our destination came into view just north of Liberty Ave. underpass: the famed 3,000 foot long Atlantic Ave. tunnel portal. Thurston and I were able to climb up to the platform which had remnants of vagrancy some months earlier. The passenger station is rather short -- almost the length of a shuttle stop. There was indication of former stairwells and/or elevators from looking at depressions in the concreted ceiling. There was also some heavy-duty ventilation equipment in operation behind a rather new looking roll-gate on the former northbound track (east-most track). From Seyfried's notes, this track apparently connected with the Flatbush Ave. Line going west.
After a few mintues there we found a hole in the fencing along Van Sinderin and entered the streets once again. Crossing under the Flatbush Branch at East New York, Thurston and I completed the day with a C train trip to catch the New Franklin Shuttle (Thurston's first trip on the line -- enjoying it -- dispite our ride on a Hippo!)
All in all a very eventful day. Hopefully, the next trip will have a bigger group and we'll be able to cover the route west of Utica Ave.
Signing off for now,
Doug aka BMTman
Really sorry I couldn't go. Perhaps I'll join in for a walk through the western half in March, family permitting.
Sorry I missed it, got hung up at work Saturday nite. Keep me in mind though for any further exploration.
Doug, the track maps are from Bob Emery, not Seyfried.
Thanks, Bob. I just assumed they were from Seyfried.
Glad you cleared that up.
Doug aka BMTman
[We walked past the Linden Shops, where there was a stub-end track that formerly went into the current TA yard that was now completely severed and showed signs of not having been used in quite awhile.]
Does this mean that there's no longer a connection between the NY&A and the subway system within the Linden Yard? I thought that it was about to be put into heavy use for delivery of the new cars.
Doug was talking about the South end that had a entrance. There is an ACTIVE entrance from the North end. As a matter of fact they were moving ties with a crane Sunday when we went by.
I have a correction to Peter Dougherty's subway track maps, page 37. It shows "Linden Shops", but just before it and after the merge of the spirs from IRT & Canarsie (L) lines is a (new) rail staging yard. Only a couple of tracks there now, BUT that is what you can see from the L & 3, the Linden (former LIRR) yard is beyond your view.
Mr t__:^)
Yesterday was wife's birthday, which rendered me unavailable. For her present, I took the lad off her hands all day, and walking on railroad right of ways would not quite be appropriate for him yet.
The mild weather did enable us to enjoy the reopened Franklin Shuttle, a Slant on the 'B'(!) for its West End shuttle run, and an extended hike in Prospect Park. We were both very impressed with its vast array of woods, hills and views and lack of garbage. At this time of year, you have to take advantage of whatever nice weather you get. When it gets seriously cold, we'll be pretty much restricted to riding the trains- not that there's anything wrong with THAT.
They're still turning the '4' at Atlantic, but no amount of announcements will keep people from looking bewildered and asking "Utica?" when we pull into Nevins Manhattan-bound.
(# 4 to Atlantic). I wouldn't surprise me if that ended up permanent off peak, to save a few bucks.
I doubt that. The 3 is jammed to the gills with passengers between Nevins and Utica. Im sure everything will go back to normal in a couple of weeks when the weather changes...........
3TM
They were turning the 4 at Atlantic because there was a GO on the 3 from the portal between Utica and Sutter to the cross-over at Junius Street on Track 1 that required a shuttle because of the switch layouts at Utica. They have to have use two slots for the 3 and one for the shuttle, leaving one slot for the 4, so they cut it back at Atlantic. Usually they're good about the announcements and people switch to the 2 or 3 at Nevins.
Jon Hart
Did you take any photos?
Yes, and no.
Yes, up until (need I say) the tunnel portal at Atlantic Ave (really E. New York Ave.) where the battery in my camera decided to fail on me. I think I got one good shot of the tunnel and platform before it went on the fritz. And to think I had an extra roll of film with me. Should have had an extra battery in hindsight.
Kevin, I will let you know how things develop -- literally.
PS, I should have a picture of the Bluebird Diner that you could add to your website.
Doug aka BMTman
I should have a picture of the Bluebird Diner
Is it shaped like the Bluebird? Heck, I'll even take the Green Hornet.
Hope you got the tunnel portal since it's labeled Long Island Rail Road, I think. Any pics of the old platform wd. be good too. Of course you will get credit on forgotten, even if you want to be called Doug aka BMTman.
It's labeled LIRR grade elimination 1907 ... don't have all the words & not positive about the date.
Mr t__:^)
Is there any info if the NY&A plans to do a track rehab on the Bay Ridge line? Also the same question on the Bushwick branch. Thanks for any info.
We saw some evidence of some track re-hab work as we got closer to Broadway/East NY, i.e. after Linden shorage yard. Also just before the tunnel it looks like the scrappers are added siding space. To the East (opposite one of the scrappers) debris have been cleared from a disused ROW ... classification yard ???
Mr t__:^)
As Thurston pointed out there is some current work going on to rehabilitate the sidings and former ROW along the Bay Ridge around the East New York Industrial Corridor (Van Sinderin between Liberty and Sutter Aves). The long-time scrap metal recycler over there -- even Bob Emery's hand drawings indicate this operation, so they've been around for some time -- seems to be doing a booming business and has plans to expand there loads of out-bound rail-freight traffic.
I almost forgot that earlier in the walk we came across the noted rail-car scale over by an auto-recycler just past the old Rugby Station area of the Bay Ridge (mid-way between Remsen and Rockaway Aves). There was a train of gondolas on sitting on the mainline with scrap loaded up to their sides. A frontloader was working the weekend to load an uncoupled gondola that was sitting on the scales, apparently awaiting the load limit indication-alarm.
Doug aka BMTman
Any remnants of the passenger stations (which closed in 1924) along the line?
Yes, there were two locations we found.
The first appeared to be a short section of concrete foundation of either part of the passenger platform, or station building for the former Remsen Ave. station. Just saw a well-worn cement flooring on the north side of the embankment just east of Remsen crossing.
The only other station (completely intact BTW) that was observed occurred at old Manhattan Crossing -- the Atlantic Ave. station at the portal to the Bushwick tunnel. The station is rather short, but was in relatively good condition considering it's age.
Unfortunately, there was no indication of a connection with the East New York station of the Flatbush Line, although there was supposed to have been one between the two lines years ago.
Doug aka BMTman
I think it reads New York City and Long Island Railroad grade elimination 1907-1914 (or something thereof). The pics will give us the full details.
Re: the Flatbush branch of the LIRR at East NY...before the grade crossing elimination project of 1940-41: where was the Manhattan Beach junction to the Bay Ridge line?
Carl M.
[Re: the Flatbush branch of the LIRR at East NY...before the grade
crossing elimination project of 1940-41: where was the Manhattan Beach
junction to the Bay Ridge line?]
Grade crossing elimination occurred throughout Brooklyn on ALL railroad lines (even rapid transit systems) very early in the 20th Century, roughly between the years of 1907-1914. I don't know how you got the dates of 1940-41 (maybe you're confusing grade crossing elimination with trolley-line elimination?)
Manhattan Beach junction was approximately within a few hundred yards east of the current Brighton Line and it's use as a passenger line was discontinued after 1924. I believe the actual track removal didn't happen till 1932 or thereabouts. (I hope to investigate any remaining evidence of the Manhattan Beach Branch on a followup walking tour of the Bay Ridge Line west of the old Kouvenhowen Station (KingsHighway & Utica Ave.)
Doug aka BMTman
As far as grade crossing removal being done early in the century in Bklyn don't forget the one on the Canarsie Line till the 60's and if memory serves me correct, South Bklyn Railway Trains went down MacDonald Av up to the early 70's!!
Good point, Jeffrey. However, the Grade Elimination Project dealt specifically with all the rail lines that ran totally at street level.
Doug aka BMTman
I hope to investigate any remaining evidence of the Manhattan
Beach Branch ...
You don't have to look too hard along the Brighton Line to see evidence of this line:
- Ave X "phantom underpass"
- Neck Road station house remains, adjacent to Manhattan bound D platform
- Unusually long bridge abutments along various cross streets under the Brighton Line
- Fencing along the Manhattan-bound Brighton local track at Kings Highway station
--Mark
Thanks Mark. The first two items I was unaware of. However, I was referring to things that might be found along the Bay Ridge ROW near the former Manhattan Beach Branch interchange (near E. 18th Street).
Doug aka BMTman
On the subject of Mahattan Beach Jct, you can see part of the original at- grade r of w along E 16 St btwn Av I and Av J. Its on the left side of the street midblock, as you go south. Its inside what appears to be the "backyard" area of an apartment complex. Picture G5s running along here! If you sneak behind the other apartment buildings, you can find almost all the "Y" r of w still there, except now being used as driveways, and curved spaces between buildings.
At E 17 St, there was a bridge over the Bay Ridge line, with a stair leading down to a passenger platform area, near the center of the cut. The concrete platform was clearly visible until atleast the mid
1970s, which was the last time I went down there. Conrail also had a temporary engine house under the Ocean Av bridge.
11/17/99
Bob d,
I don't think G-5s's ran on the Manhattan beach or Bay Ridge branch lines. Anybody out there can back me on this?
Bill Newkirk
11/17/99
Doug,
I posted this about a couple of weeks ago about some mysterious concrete "foundations" seen on the Bay Ridge Br. a few yards east of the Brighton Line Avenue H station. Remnants of a station or a tower???
Bill Newkirk
Remains of the old 15th St. footbridge replaced within the last year!
Prior to 1941-42, the portion of the Atlantic Ave. line east of Snedicker Ave. to Atkins Ave. was an elevated structure built in 1903-1905 with the rest of the "Atlantic Ave. Improvement". Further east to Morris Park, it was still at grade level. This was all eliminated in the early 1940's when the current tunnel was built.
Why did they leave the portion on the Bed-Stuy/Crown Heights border elevated?
Larry, by doing alittle investigative work at the BPL, I found out that the reason the Atlantic Ave. Line is elevated from approx. Bedford east to around Buffalo Ave. It was purely an economic factor.
The line was supposed to be built completely as a subway, but the Grade Elimination Project engineers realized that the many existing water mains, sewer and power lines running beneath Nostrand, Kingston, Utica etc. (Atlantic's cross streets), would make a subway cost prohibitive. So the el was the answer to removing the line from major Crown Heights/Bed-Stuy street traffic.
Doug aka BMTman
I heard that the only thing blocking the use of Double Deckers on the Flatbush Branch is that that el is too weak to support the weight of the DM30ACs, or is it that the tunnel is too low for the DDs? Is 63 and Grand Central too low for the DDs?
Back in the 50s when they had the MU Double Deckers on the LIRR, they did not run to Brooklyn because they could not fit into the tunnels
Actually Bob, none of the MU cars purchased in the 50's (the present old diesel coaches) ever took the Bklyn Line. They only had pre-war cars going to Bklyn. (At least you could open the windows) I think it was the length of the cars more than the height.
Sometime after 1969, there were modifications made as the M-1's would soon be the ONLY m.u. cars on the LIRR -- and the longer cars WERE used on the LIRR Flatbush Avenue runs.
As I have postedd before, the modifications that I heard about were in the area of the Flatbush Avenue terminal itself; the tunnels were NOT the real problem. It was something to do with curvature of track in the platforms/approach interlocking at Flatbush.
Does that mean that with the modifications that Dual locos would be able to go to Flatbush with Bi-Levels?
No, the dual-mode locos will NEVER be able to go into Flatbush, because of the weight situation on the elevated stretch between there and East New York.
11/21/99
How about the HEIGHT restrictions. The old double deckers never ran to Flatbush Ave because of height.
Bill Newkirk
I don;t know about that, because I saw a photo of one on the front of a train of MP-72 types emerging from the tunnel just west of Nostrand Avenue.
I cannot remember where I saw that photo -- but it shocked the hell out of me when I did see it, thinking the same thing. The roof looked like it would have been VERY close but there was room. I thought for sure they were just a tad too high to fit that tunnel, as they are almost a foot higher than the MP-72 types. (The photo was even in the MTA blue/light grey color scheme....)
I've checked all the LIRR calendars -- now I'm checking all the books in my library that deal with LIRR. I was going to scan the photo and send it to all the folks who have discussed the situation here, but I can't find it now. As soon as I do, I'll send a scan to everyone.
Jeff I remember them very well, as I stated that there never were double deck cars into Flatbush Ave. I like the old color scheme 2 tone gray and white. I remember when my aunt and grandmother moved from Inwood to Rego Park, in 55. I used to watch the trains from the window as they went by, or stop at the Rego Park Station, on the Ozone Park Line. Old diesal(Fairbank Morse Hood Units and some steam.
It wasn't so much that they wouldn't fit into the tunnels, but the longer cars would not negotiate some of the curves in the Flatbush Avenue terminal area.
I forget where, but I have seen photos of the old LIRR double-decks emerging from the tunnel just west of Nostrand Avenue -- at least the first car was a DD while the following two cars were MP72T's.
The M-1's are 85 feet long, if I remember correctly. How long are the Bilevels? I get the impression they're a bit shorter.
I don't think the elevated portion is too weak, since it had been used for freight trains earlier in the century.
(Cut costs with an El)
That was a shortsighted decision -- for Brooklyn and the south shore of Queens and Long Island. Brooklyn has very few major roads where trucks can move. Atlantic Avenue is one of them. Traffic is OK on conduit and the eastern part of Atlantic, but backs up under the El, before picking up again when the El goes under. If the tracks were underground the whole way, traffic would move better.
What could also help traffic problems would be for DOT to once again allow through traffic to use the roadway beneath the el (as a kid I recall my dad driving beneath the full length of the structure). Only at the ends would there be some bottlenecking where the roadways would merge.
At least two lanes of traffic would be gained on Atlantic Ave.
(I think the DOT gave the roadway under the el to the communities as additional street parking. Also part of it is used as turning lanes for the major cross streets.)
Doug aka BMTman
The Atlantic Ave. LIRR ran along the surface of the street as late as the late 30's in Queens. I have pictures from a book called "The History of Woodhaven And Ozone Pk." which has many pictures of the line. There used to be a local stop called "87-88th St." which my father grew up close to.
Technically, the Atlantic Branch STILLS runs at grade: at East New York station the line comes to a point a just short of street level (actually the high-level platform is actually a low-level platform with the tracks being a few feet from the surface).
The Atlantic branch comes to surface at that point to allow for the Bay Ridge Line tunnel which runs directly beneath it.
Doug aka BMTman
I might be wrong but I think I once read that the reason for ENY to be at street level was that there was a provision during grade elimination that no stations could be underground. Yes, I know the old Woodhaven Station was completely underground, I guess that was an exception because of its important connection (at the time) with the Rockaway Beach Line. I think there were more stations before grade elim. that were done away with after. I even think one poster this evening stated his dad remembered a station years ago in Queens.
[I might be wrong but I think I once read that the reason for ENY to be at street level was that there was a provision during grade elimination that no stations could be underground.]
I can't figure out what purpose that provision would serve. After all, the Flatbush Avenue terminal was underground, why would line stations have to be aboveground?
I'm not really sure. I just thought I read it somewhere. However if I'm not mistaken Flatbush terminal was built before the grade crossing elimination.
Jeffrey, you are right about Flatbush Terminal. It was there before grade elimination projects.
BTW, if you are right about stations being above ground along the Atlantic Ave. route I might have a couple of reasons:
(1) the need for adequate ventilation
(2) some kind of provision related to NYC Fire Regulations (?)
Those are the only things I could think of.
Doug aka BMTman
Was Flatbush Terminal originally above ground late in the 19th century?
--Mark
I believe so. As well, there were actually to levels to Flatbush Terminal. The street or elevated station was for freight trains. The subway level was for passengers (as is the case today).
The freight trains terminated on or near the surface to make deliveries/pickups at the meat packing plants that were situated on Fort Greene Place (presently the site of Atlantic Center Mall).
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, I think I read in Seyfried's LIRR History (Vol. 4) that there were a bunch of stations along the Atlantic branch that not longer exist. Trains back then on the LIRR were more like rapid transit lines, since trains made stops every few blocks on the line (There was one at Bedford, Utica, and Ralph Aves among others if I recall correctly).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug...I've seen old maps which had stations at Warwick and Hemlock sts. in Brooklyn and Union Course in Queens (located at RockawayBlvd). Apparently, there was a racetrack at that site during the 1800's.
Carl M.
They also used the MP-41's which were rapid transit type cars which resembled the Low-V's.
There have actually been over 60 different stations over the years on the LIRR's Atlantic Ave. line, including the rapid-transit only stops. Here's a list at http://www.lirrhistory.com/mar99/atlstas.jpg
Where did you get that list?
It came with the collection of track maps I have which were hand-drawn by Bob Emery - a longtime LIRR Historian and Conductor. Upon his passing several years ago, his collection was donated to SUNY Stony Brook. Follow this link to see the entire collection http://www.sunysb.edu/library/mc243.htm
There is a large plaque on the outside of the Newkirk Av station on the D train, it gives all the dates and names of the the grade crossing elimination project. I have an old book with all the before and after pictures, including the Brighton/Franklin Av line, LIRR and Sea Beach.
I forgot to mention, that if there is interest, and Dave Pirrmann can provide a space for posting, I'm willing to scan the pictures and maps out of the Grade Crossing Elimination Report. You can email me off list to let me know.
Bob, that sounds verrrry interesting to me. What is the name of this book and who wrote it?
Doug aka BMTman
It's either put out by the Board of Estimate, or the Grade Crossing Commission itself, I have to check my "attic" tonight to refresh my memory. Also, I'll try to get the address of an apartment complex that contains an original piece of at-grade Manhattan Beach Junction in its backyard.
[Also, I'll try to get the address of an apartment complex that contains an original piece of at-grade Manhattan Beach Junction in its backyard.]
Bob, please do!
And mucho thanks for any assistance you can render on Grade Elimination Commission Reports, etc.
Doug aka BMTman
I realy thought that I was going to miss the trip as the LIRR was doing track work which delayed my train 3/4 hour. At Jamaica I just missed a connection to Atlantic Ave (was going to meet the L at Broadway). As the sign said it would be 20 minutes to the next I went downstairs and activated my FUN PASS on the J. At Broadway it was another 1/4 hour wait for the L. But to my surprise Doug's smiling face greeted me at Carnarsie.
At the end of our walk we ducked under the LIRR (underpass) to reach the C at Broadway-East NY, then Shuttle and C & L back to Carnarsie where we had a long wait for the B6.
My 12 hour adventure included: LIRR/M-1, J/R-38, L/R32, C/R32, S/Hippo, C/R-38, L/Slant-40, B6/RTS, Chrysler 300 Hard Top Convertable, L/R-42, J/R-38, LIRR/M-1, N15/Orion V CNG ... think I got my money's worth from my Fun Pass !
Mr t__:^)
Thurston -- one correction: No R-38s run on the L Line. Only Slant R-40s, R-40M, and R-42s. I saw the train you got off of and I believe it was an R-42 (rebuild of course).
Doug aka BMTman
Re: R-38 vs. R-42 ... ah yes to a occasional user they have similar outward features (corregated type side 1/2 way up), but I'm getting to a point where I know one from the other.
Maybe the other reason I hate the Hippos so much is that at 6' 6" they are very cramped inside (low ceiling).
Mr t__:^)
6'6"?? You must have hated the fans on the R1-9's and the other pre-war trains!!!!
The R-38s have an electronic route sign above the storm door and currently hold down the fort on the A and C lines. Last month, I saw a few mixed consists of R-32s and R-38s on the C.
If anyone wants to know when Elvis Presley rode the Bay Ridge Branch, check this page:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Elvis/elvis.html
The attached URL should link to an article in this week's Queens Tribune regarding the completion of the 63 St Connection.
http://queenstribune.com/news/deadline_08.htm
Recent exfoliations in the Times Square subway station have revealed an old overhead sign that reads simply "Canarsie", visible near the bottom of the escalators at the Seventh Avenue/42nd Street entrance.
A few weeks or months ago, a flurry of Sub Talk messages explained the presence of this sign in the Times Square station in great detail. As i recall, the sign was intended to direct riders to the 14th Street/Union Square station (via the N or R trains?) where they could board trains to canarsie. The date of the sign, if anyone knew it, escapes me.
Can anyone - perhaps one of the authors of the earlier message - explain the presence of this sign to me in more detail? If the question has become too tedious or repetitive for further discussion, can someone provide me with the dates of the original exchange?
Any help on this is greatly appreciated.
The sign can be seen here:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Subway%20signs%2C%20outdated/oldsigns.html
I saw the sign on Forgotten NY website. That sign looks to me like pre-unification. It might even date back to the opening of the B'way BMT. If not, maybe to the completion of 14th St. service all the way to Canarsie.
11/16/99
Re: "Canarsie" sign at Times Square.
My take on this is that the sign was painted there to direct passengers looking for a connecting route that would eventually take them to Canarsie. Remember,Golden City Park? There was an amusement park there and Canarsie was the "sticks" back then.
Bill Newkirk
So have there been any Dual Modes at Penn Station?
I was wondering if they will double end the train with the DM's. It was reported that due to third rail gaps that DM trains running into Penn would have to have two engines. (I don't know how slAMTRAK does it with only one engine but maybe the gaps are different tracks 12-20?).
I want to get some pictures of the DM's at Penn with LIRR logos>G<.
I don't know how slAMTRAK does it with only one engine but maybe the gaps are different tracks 12-20?).
Amtrak uses overhead wire, which only has short insulation gaps.
But it seems to me the LIRR has to work something out with this. Using two locomotives just because of third rail gaps doesn't seem very efficient.
I got the 5:10 to Speonk this afternoon, and it had an locomotive at each end.
Thanks Peter, I now have to look up the different sizes of the P32's and the DM's for LIRR.
Amtrak runs the P32's through the west side connector but most of the time the P32's are on the low numbered tracks at Penn. I've never even seen a FL9 above track 10. Maybe there is some differences in the GAP or it is just MTA/LIRR over cautrion since "Our Saftey Is There Number On Concern".
There has to be some provision for third rail gaps. I'm mean, things happen. I don't know if it still exists in any form, but the old electrics on the NYC (immortalized by Lionel and Ives) had tiny pantographs that contacted overhead third rail at the regular third rail gaps.
Maybe there aren't such long gaps where Amtrak runs its DMs.
I wonder how big a deal it would be to crank up the diesel on the LIRR DMs, just for the purpose of getting off a dead spot.
I bet you could get the guys in the bar car to give a push in exchange for extra ice and olives.
The overhead third rail system was removed from penn in the 30's when wires were strung up.
I beieve it still exists in GCT, though it's currently unused. It was apparently a tricky system to work - the engineer on the ACMU fantrip the other year admitted that he had once screwed things up with one of the box motors in GCT. You have to get the up / down timing right (there's a pedal on the floor that actovates it) or you get lots of sparks. plus there's alignment issues - the pans can only work through a few inch range. The EP-5s had them, as did other NH motors. They were the only motors in the US to have both AC and DC pantographs, though full sized DC and AC ones are somewhat common on european equipment. The FL-9 was supposed to have them, but it never made it into the production ones.
The first 30 FL-9's actually DID have the small pantographs on them.
They were removed around 1959 when it was found they didn't work (or had the problems described in previous post).
They were mounted behind the "winterization hatch", just forward of the steam generator exhausts, toward the rear of the units' roofs.
The second order (2030-2059) came without them.
Yeah, but Amtrak's DMs use third rail. They do fine with just one loco. And I tend to think a P-32 is shorter than a DM-30 anyway
Amtrak has DM's? Where? What route are they used on?
AFAIK, the trains coming in from the West Side are straight diesel.
Look at their P-32s real closely. You'll notice third rail shoes and LOTS of sparks as they pull out of the station!!!!
Amtrak origionated the P-32-AC-DM because their FL-9s were acting like FL-9s and not doing the switchover properly. Last one I saw in Penn had an AEM-7 hooked up to pullit from LI->Penn->out of Penn. I don't know where / how they get from Penn to that line on the west side. The P-32s can fit into GCT (metro-north uses them). Amtrak supposedly had that as a requirement, in case they ever had to go into GCT (I'm sure they're REALLY eager too do that again!!!). AFIK, GCT has the tightest cleances of any regular railroad station. The DE/DM-30s won't fit in there, nor will the double deckers. I'm impressed the M-2s do, and I wouldn't be surprised if there's restrictioons on what tracks they can / cannot go to (They're a good 1 - 2 feet taller than an M-1).
Doesn't Metro-North use the same dual-modes that Amtrak uses?
Amtrak has a (single-track?) connection between Penn Station and the West Side line. This is the same connection that Metro-North is thinking of using to run Hudson Line trains into Penn Station.
Yes, Metro-North's 200-series locos are just about the same exact thing that Amtrak's 700-series are.
The one difference that I know if -- Metro-North's have an escape hatch in the front end in case of tunnel problems.
The clearance problems in GCT aren't so much height -- but side clearances. That's the reason M-N opted for thathatch in the front of the 200's.
Amtrak uses GE P32AC-DM's into Penn Station. They do NOT run on overhead wire.
I'd love to see the fireworks display if they DID contact the overhead wire!!!
11/16/99
Someone posted here that the diesel engines stayed on through Jamaica and the switchover to third rail was somewhere east of the tunnel portals. That would explain not chancing a "gap out" at Jamaica or Harold.
Bill Newkirk
Yes there was, at least one train! I took the 5:10 to Lindenhurst, which had the new DM's ( I think one at each end ). Here are my observations and opinions -
1. This was my first ride on the Bi-levels, and it seemed quite comfortable, although a little claustrophobic with the low ceilings over the seats. The seats actually seemed large enough for an average adult human being. I have read various things here about the automated announcements, they worked ok and didn't seem annoying.
2. The ride was smooth and quiet! Even the air ventilation was quiet. And it smelled like a new car.
3. I didn't detect anything as far as a switch to diesel, and when I got off and the train departed, it sure didn't sound like it was running on diesel power, in fact it made a really cool Jetson's kind of sound as it started to move.
4. There was a fair amount of confusion at Penn, since if you didn't know this was going to happen, the 5:10 to Babylon wasn't listed on the Board anymore, it's now the Speonk train. At least it was still on track 15. Since many Babylon riders (myself included) seem to have never boarded a Bi-level, the layout and logistics of moving around in the cars also was a bit confused. The LIRR could have publicized this first run a bit more.
5. In summary, I enjoyed it, and will try to catch that train when I can, at least for the wider seats, smooth quiet ride and nice smell.
Out of curiosity, did any of the electric trains to and from Flatbush have connections with the dual-mode trains to Penn? In other words, for example,do Far Rock or Long Beach riders now get a chance to ride the bi-levels when changing at Jamaica to-or-from Penn?
And remember, the lower level is the place to be when there are short skirts on the platforms!!
They also need the two engines to pull the number of cars they are using. If they want to run more than four to six cars they need the second engine.
This morning on the LIRR, as we stopped at Forest Hills, which has a four car-length long platform, the doors on all eight cars of the train opened! Luckily, no one fell out. I assume that the train crew can get in trouble for an incident like this. Anyone know what the penalty might be?
11/16/99
I'm sure there is some kind of reprimand on this,but I'm not sure. The same thing happened to me back in the 80's when a Penn bound train stopped at Kew Gardens and the doors rear doors opened "sans" platform. Some people standing in the vestibules looked into the abyss but nobody fell out! I saw one of the trainmen running toward the conductors position.Doors closed and we were on our way.
Back to the NYCTA,a similar thing happened when I was riding an R-68 (N) that was running express (trackwork?) northbound puling into 42nd St-Times Square. The doors opened on the opposite side where the girders are. Unlike the LIRR fiasco,the passengers started shouting out HEY!,HEY! Nobody fell out there and the doors closed quick enough.
Bill Newkirk
I have seen the doors open on the wrong side of an R-44/R-46 at Brighton Beach on the Manhattan-bound local track.
"mind the gap" would be an understatement (though the ocean breeze would be very nice ....)
--Mark
I'm a recreational LIRR rider, so I haven't seen that, but I have frequently noticed a lack of announcements that certain cars will not open at stations with short platforms. This results in people being trapped on the train past their stops. The only time it happened to me when I was trying to get off at Kew Gardens about 1:00 a.m. and had to scramble through five cars to no avail. Rather than buy another ticket from Jamaica to Kew Gardens, pay a fortune, and wait who knows how long, I cabbed it back. (This was December 1985, before the Archer extension, and no way was I going to walk up Sutphin to Hillside, or wait for the Q60 at that hour!)
I reported this to LIRR public relations. Judging from the response of the person at the other end, I doubt there are any reprimands for this.
I was on an Oyster Bay train (W/B) about a month ago. At Mineola a lady complained that her door didn't open at East Williston. She waited at the door thinking they were delaying opening it, not knowing the others were open. By the time she realized it the train was moving. (It was one of the old trains with the doors in the vestibules between cars) The conductor wrote something on her ticket and initialed it allowing her to take a reverse direction train. She said something about the infrequent service at night and how she's going to have to take a cab out of her own money and madly got off.
I'm pretty sure this has been discussed before on Subtalk. Where can I get a 2000 NYC Subway Map? Does the "Weekend Chief" sell them?
Thank you,
Chuck Greene
The latest one is Sept 1999, write NYCTA 370 Jay Street Brooklyn NY 11201 and ask them for one, it should take about a month
Thanks, Bob. I'll write to them!
Chuck Greene
WHOOPS! I must have been asleep when I asked for a map! I meant
a NYC Subway Calender for the year 2000. That's why I mentioned the "Weekend Chief". Sorry!
Chuck Greene
YOU CAN GET ONE FROM BILL NEWKIRK
There has been a lot of talk on this site about a possible transit strike next month, but one issue has not been addressed. In the event of a strike, what happens to people using 7 day and 30 day Metro Cards who are in the middle of there 7 and 30 day periods. Will the TA give refunds for days not used or suspend the counting until the strike is settled?
I did bring that up awhile ago. Recall that when the Blizzard of 1996 forced a cancelation of LIRR and MetroNorth service, Pataki ordered the MTA to issue refunds to holders of monthly tickets. No such refunds or benefits were available to TA riders, many of whom lost two days of pay. Pataki said the reason is that LIRR and MetroNorth riders already paid for their rides, but TA riders had lost nothing.
My comment was (yuck yuck) I wonder if Pataki will order refunds for TA monthly pass holders, now that they exist. The answer, I assume is no, but it will be interesting to hear the excuse if the press brings it up.
But they WERE right, NO TA users had lost any rides, while most commuters did because they had the prepaid monthly tickets. I assume they will, for back then TA users deserved to get NOTHING as nothing had been lost.
I suggest you buy a "value" MetroCard instead of a monthly unlimited for December. At $15 you get the first free ride, i.e. 16.50 value, at $30 you get 33.00 in value, i.e. 2 free rides. If you make multiple trips a day then buy some weekly unlimiterd or 24 hour Fun Passes.
Mr t__:^)
Thank you. that is what I was planning to do when my 30 runs out on Thursday.
I am switching to a 7 day from a 30 day so I'll only be out at most $2.
I'll buy two monthlys as usual. It will be worth whatever I risk losing to be able to raise hell demanding reimbursement.
I'll buy two monthlys as usual. It will be worth whatever I risk losing to be able to raise hell demanding reimbursement. Besides, they might keep extending the deadline, then actually strike when you've gone back the monthly in January.
What I would hope that the TA would do is extend all non-expired cards by the number of days a strike lasts - they could do this easily in the computer. Say a strike goes 5 days, extend active 30-day cards to 35 days.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SEPTA gave credit for unused days last summer.
In case anyone is interested, the Seinfeld all about the subway is on right now on Fox (East)
No it isn't. Seinfeld is not syndicated to Fox or any network for that matter, they are syndicated to each individual local station, regardless of affiliation and air at various times. While on at the same time in New York, it's on Channel 11, the WB affiliate. What city are you in?
Oh. I'm in Philadelphia. I didn't realize syndicated shows were specific to local stations. Sorry about that then!
Just trying to inform. Now you know!
Where in town do you live? I live in West Philly and I'm working across from 30th Street Station.
Ahhh...its ok..but the Lucy episode with the loving cup on her head is still one of the best,especially considering it was done in 1956, in front of a LIVE audience...they really made the interior of that train look like a old IRT car..(and they got the signs right to boot!) Also a little off topic but....(I Love)Lucy is generally pretty amazing, considering that all those shows were filmed in less than an hour and a half including scene changes...whereas I know people that have gone to see "Spin City" filmed, for example, and they keep those poor people there almost FIVE hours..incredible....
My favorite line on that episode was when, at the Flatbush Av station with the cup still on her head she asked someone, "Where am I?", and the guy answered "Earth"!!!
And Seinfeld copied that in the final episode of "The Keys" saga (in LA). It just proves that most modern TV is copied from those "forefathers" You could watch every episode of "I Love Lucy" and probably not have to watch another show again.
MAD magazine once had an article:"Emmy Categories We'd Like to See" and one was "Best Disguising of an Old Lucy Plot in a Sitcom..." OK Dave..I know...way way off topic....( But I could go on FOREVER about whats wrong with TV comedy today...)
Yeah, I sat through four excruciating hours of The Cosby Show (the early 80's one) that was tapped before a live audience at the NBC Studios (Vitagraph) over near the Brighton Line at Ave. M.
Four hours to get one half-hour show -- I guess that's show biz. Glad I'm not a part of it!
Doug aka BMTman
Right by my alma amter: ER Murrow High School
3TM
Starting with the syndication of The Cosby Show, many of the major sitcoms that have since gone off-network air the same episode each night at stations across the country, whether or not it's a Fox, WB, UPN or network affiliate. KTLA in Los Angeles showed the same episode tonight, though its part of the WB network.
BTW -- whoever designed the car either threw in a little bit of a lot of cars, or just didn't care. The car Kramer was in was your basic R-62 with R-68 seating with R-10 sized desitnation sign above the window.
Hopefully this person will not be a design consultant with Bombarider any time soon.
Oh no here we go again !
BTW, don't have to wait for syndication if you want to eat in the coffee shop they frequented. It in Harlem at about 112th Street & Broadway. The part you never see on TV is it's first name "TOM's" resturant ! I've had lunch their a couple of times. There's a pizza place accross the street that was in a Law & Order.
Get there by 1/9 to 116th Street. Why not make a day of it ... tour Columbia University; Grant's Tomb; St. John the unfinished, North Church (go up in the tower for a great view of NYC), West Side line of Amtrack (you have to walk a bit north between West Side Highway & Riverside Drive (thru park) to about 120th, I think) (it runs under the park). Walk around Morningside Park (I wouldn't walk through it) to reach IND & A/B/C/D for ride back downtown.
Mr t__:^)
Walking through Morningside Park is OK in the daytime, based on my admittedly limited experience - it's the neighborhood between it and the C train at 116th that leaves much to be desired.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My dad tried that walk through Morningside about 25 years ago going to Columbia University. Got mugged, and the mugger decided he forgot something, so he went back and got him again before he was able to get out of the park.
The few times I've been up there since then, I made sure to get the 1 at Columbus Circle, though I've never had trouble cycling around the Central Park roadway at 110th St.
Many times at lunch I used to look over the side of Morningside Drive into the park (it's quite a drop) and sometimes would see some very strange things going on down there. I had occasion to walk just south of the park at 110th to reach the IND and didn't find it too bad at PM rush hour. It's a wide street. (This big WHITE guy didn't linger though).
P.S. Add to your Harlem Field Trip lunch at Mickey Ds at 125th & Broadway (it's under the 1/9 125th subway station and counts as eating lunch in Harlem). Also do a drive by of the Apollo Theater on 125th. Then you can tell all your friends that you went to Harlem just to see the tourest sights and survived ! It's realy not that bad around Columbia University or on 125th Street (especially if you do it during daylight). I'm a believer that it's one of those places in New York that everyone should visit at least once. One caution try not to look like a tourest and no one will bother you.
Mr t__:^)
Just want to make all of you aware, the PBS is screening a multi-night, multi-hour history of NYC. The first night, which ran through the Erie Canal, was pretty good. Tonight its 1825 to 1865. Beginning tomarrow, things might get interesting from a transit perspective, with horsecars, els, and finally the subway and highways.
It will be interesting if they properly understand the importance of transit to the city, and whether or not they swallow Caro's villification of Robert Moses whole.
I am tapeing the series.I watched Aftershock in NY. You guyas all had your wishes come true the Manny B and the Brooklyn all fellinto the river. They did not show the Willy B. But the Subway they showed was marked N to Astoria, but the equipment was fron Toronto. Also the TV Helicopter had Canadian Markings even though it said WCBS Channel 2. I have one question. I remember Scarborough was on Channel 4 when he wrote the book in the early 90s what channel is he on now.?
Still on Channel 4. In fact, WNBC did a "sweeps month" speical report on their evening news about what would happen if an earthquake hit the city. It may be the first time a local new show used a hpyed-up story to promote another network's show.
I didn't see the movie, but that must have been some quake to move those subway cars all the way from Toronto to Astoria.
The train said Astoria on it s head sign, the N was on the side roll sign, but It was supposed to be on Broadway
Who said that the Brooklyn has to fall into the East River? The Brooklyn is a great looking and fine quality bridge!
In the TV Movie Aftershock, both Manny B and Brooklyn B fell into the river
I know, but why is the Brooklyn falling in a "Dream come true?"
Seems the transit story begins tommorrow. They did show that 1905 footage of the IRT, though.
Interesting to see how the political scene we know today had taken shape within a few years of the Civil War, and instructive to see how much hubris we've lost since the days when we thought big and built bigger.
Josh
I was amazed to hear all the "wise men" talking about how New York is such a forward looking, it happens here first city. Maybe 30 years ago, but not today. Although a coworker claimed that the "I've got mine jack" crowd always dominates government and always tries to stop change, but in NYC the government is just too weak to stop it.
I felt the same way, except that it saddened me that New York was allowed to decay, as opposed to upholding it's traditional path. What I did learn anew from the PBS special was that the city has always thrown out the past and built anew, I guess then it that case I should stop loathing Penn Station as I do.
I really don't see how they can.....the opening of the IRT is as defining a moment in NYC history as there is.... without the subway, New York would have literally choked itself to death before 1920.....[the els were only a partial solution and everybody, even the pre-Belmont el companies knew it...]Lets also see if they mention the H&M and Pennsy Tubes too,,also defining moments......New York may be the city that never sleeps, but when the subways shut down...it gets awfully groggy...
I'm watching it as well.
I was surprised at the distinct social gap the city had back then. That draft riot surprised me, I'd never heard of it before.
I want to see how well they treat one of the city's greatest gems-the subway.
BTW, I stomached some of that "Aftershock" on Sunday. C'est bidon! Why are Toronto subway cars passed off as NYC cars when they don't look alike?
It's cheaper to shoot TV shows in Canada than in the U.S. and the studios' favorite site, Vancouver, doesn't have a subway.
I would think by now, all Toronto trains automatically come equipped with New York City destination signs.
Maybe they do....
(Never heard of the Draft Riot)
Its not something they emphasize in high school history, and no wonder. When I was 16 we moved out to Tulsa, Oklahoma. They had a race riot there in the 1920s and HUNDREDS of black people were slaughtered, the entire black section of town was burned down, and federal troops had to be sent in to stop the killing. The whole incident was just erased from the history of the city. I never heard about it while I was there, but more recently they've owned up to it and started digging for the mass graves.
There is a "biggest and best or worst" triumphalism about the PBS history of New York. I think Tulsa actually had the worst riot.
I heard about that story recently......... I beleive somebody said as you stated, that it was largest race riot in US history??????
3TM
(Never heard of the Draft Riot)
Its not something they emphasize in high school history, and no wonder.
The Draft Riots in New York City during the Civil War are hardly hidden history. It is one of the better known events of the War.
The Civil War did not go as advertised. Licnoln did not have a very good idea of how to prosecute it and it was thought for a long time it could be resolved through the use of volunteers. The reality that people would be forced to fight did not sit well with many.
Not many people seem aware that the Civil War was exceptionally bloody. More Americans died in the Civil War than in all the wars of the 20th Century combined. Yes, including WWII.
More Americans died in the Civil War than in all the wars of the 20th Century combined. Yes, including WWII.
That's because all the participants, on both sides were Americans.
[ More Americans died in the Civil War than all 20th century wars combined because all participants were Americans ]
That's true, but only part of the truth. The population of the country was much smaller duirng the Civil War than during the 20th Century--not only because of natural population growth but because the huge immigration of the '80s to the 'teens was yet to occur.
I also heard of the Draft Riots in school. Maybe it's because I went to school in NY. But I can hardly imagine the school system desiring to hide documented cases of racism. The textbooks we used in the 60's covered the topic quite adequately.
If the subway is going to be discussed in this show, it will be in tonight's episode. The series seems to pick and choose big factors in the city's history. The Croton Aquaduct, Els and trolleys barely got a mention. You'd never know the city had public schools. Rowhouses and tenements are mentioned, but you don't see the typcial layout of either.
So the subways could be the subject of a 20 minute discussion, or a five second remark.
If the subway is going to be discussed in this show, it will be in tonight's episode. The series seems to pick and choose big factors in the city's history. The Croton Aquaduct, Els and trolleys barely got a mention. You'd never know the city had public schools. Rowhouses and tenements are mentioned, but you don't see the typcial layout of either.
So the subways could be the subject of a 20 minute discussion, or a five second remark.
There is so much history, that, in order to cover everything important in detail would require many more hours than 10. They're not even going beyond 1931. Much has happened in NYC between 1931 and now. I guess we won't see any footage from the VJ-Day Ticker Tape Parade, anything pertaining to the IND Subway, or either World's Fair. I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm just soaking it all up and trying to enjoy everything that they are showing on the broadcasts. Granted, I'd like to see more about transit, but all the rest of NYC history is also important. If it was a broadcast on transit history alone, I don't think they would get many viewers, except us railfans. As for the movie clips that they've shown on the el, the first subway and turn-of-the-century streetcars, I have the unedited films on my hard drive, courtesy of links from nycsubway.org. BTW, the long subway movie took me about 15 minutes to download on a T-1 connection. Could you imagine how long it would take with a modem? I downloaded all this cool stuff to the hard drive at one of the colleges and transferred them to 2 zip disks. Once home, I transferred them to my hard drive. Now I can view them any time I wish.
They will be showing the rest of the series in January, so it probably does go up to present day New York.
They will be showing the rest of the series in January, so it probably does go up to present day New York.
Thanks for the info. I didn't know about that. I'll look for it in January.
They DID cover the subways last night ... mostly film I've seen before, but they did spend a decent amount of time on it.
Mr t__:^)
(They did cover the subways right)
But they didn't cover the outer boroughs right. There were no pictures, and no discussion, of what the outer-borough neighborhoods were like where people moved to take advantage of the subway.
First of all, they talked about the shift from bearing wall to steel skeleton construction, and skyscrapers. But the outer boroughs were built with bearing wall rowhouses, four story bearing wall tenements, and six to eight story bearing wall apartment buildings.
They don't show the local main streets, the parks, the other facilities outside Manhattan. They just say a lot of people moved there. People from outside the city will just assume that the pattern of development was the same as in Manhattan, but it ain't so.
Maybe they'll make up for it today. My standard is, would someone who has never been to NYC understand what it is like to live here, and why it is that way? They have a little work to do on that one.
Except for consolidation, the series has been pretty Manhattan-centric, but that was to be expected.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Maybe episode six won't be like that, it would be the one from the outer borough era, the one where Brooklyn is bigger than Manhattan.
The part I liked was when they talked about Mayor McClellan getting the High V up to 45 mph on the inaugural run. Can you imagine what he's think today trying to pilot one of those R-68 hippos that barely get above 30 mph?
I'm sure with all the rules & regulations that he'ld only be allowed to TOUCH the handle today :-(
He'd probably say, "Can't this damn train go any faster?"
Question: The front-window shot of the train descending into a portal and tunnel (with people standing on adjacent tracks in the tunnel)...was that Metro-North on Park Ave.?
Couldn't have been IRT #1 'cause that's a 3-track line, and this one definitely had four tracks. Thanks!
The history of the NY subway was covered in a separate one hour showing of "The American Experience" some months ago (and the video can be purchased from PBS home video or any of the Transit Museum gift shops). I guess in the larger scheme of things, and because it got its own episode, it may only be a small blip on the radar screen of the NYC documentary. However, it did get about 15 minutes of fame in last night's episode, and it showed some brief footage of D-types and AB standards in what I'll assume was th BMT Broadway subway.
The discussion of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire was quite chilling. And to think, I took some college classes in the very same building at NYU many years later ...
--Mark
<< The discussion of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire was quite
<< chilling. And to think, I took some college classes in the very
<< same building at NYU many years later ...
Is this building still standing ?
<< The discussion of the Triangle Shirtwaist Factory fire was quite
<< chilling. And to think, I took some college classes in the very
<< same building at NYU many years later ...
[Is this building still standing?]
Yep, used for administration offices. Two plaques on its SE corner describe its place in history.
Yeah. I just read an essay on the tragedy...it said that the Asch Building was "fireproof, but not death-proof".
Now, will Malbone Street even get a mention in Thursday's episode? I kinda dozed thru Tuesday's show, but I don't remember any reference to the General Slocum steamship fire.
I doubt it. When the History Channel show "Trains Unlimited" had an episode on great American Train wrecks I was positive they would have Malbone St plus the 2 big LIRR wrecks of 1950, the Rockville Ctr crash and the Thanksgiving crash in Queens. None of the 3 were shown. And that was an episode about train wrecks. I wouldn't expect them to be on a history of NYC.
Is this episode available on video somewhere? Also, where can I read about the LIRR wrecks (never heard about them before)?
Thanks!
I guess its available through the History Channel. After each episode they say where to mail away to. It is usually expensive and its much cheaper to wait till its on again and tape it. As far as the 2 LIRR wrecks of 1950 I'm sure they are in most LIRR History books. The Rockville Centre wreck was discussed in this forum a few months ago when there was a thread about overlapping tracks. (I forgot what they call 'em) The Thanksgiving Day Crash was a rear-ender in the Kew Gardens area with over 80 killed.
Overlapping tracks are known as a gauntlet. I read that Sandy Koufax's mother just missed that train out of Penn Station in 1950.
IIRC, the Kew Gardens crash was a result of stuck brakes.
Is this episode available on video somewhere?
I don't know if you can get a single episode. They have the entire set available for $99. Any info regarding the series can be found at http://www.thirteen.org/newyork/series/index.html
If you're really interested in exploring the Triangle fire, go to http://www.ilr.cornell.edu/trianglefire/
Actually, I was asking about the train wreck program...I taped the entire PBS-NYC series this week. But thanks anyway.
I missed that program. Was there any mention of the June 27, 1859 wreck which occurred in Indiana on the South Bend/Mishawaka city line? It has been known as the Denslow or Spring Brook wreck.
I don't really remember, I saw it a while ago.
In the '80s, classes as part of NYU's Washington Square University College (WSUC) were conducted in that building.
--Mark
Lord, that fire coverage was chilling. I guess we have all heard of the tragedy at some point in our lives, but nothing like that. I truly felt for these poor women.
Because the subway was the subject of its own documentary and was just touched upon (see the IRT Hi-V pulling out ?), I imagine the PBS folks figured the outer boroughs were handled much the same way, so why re-hash. And like I've always said, to most people, unfortunately, NY is just another way to say Manhattan.
Joe C.
I thought they gave WAY too low a death total for the draft riots. I don't recall the exact number they gave, but it was less than 150. From what I recall reading in various Civil War histories, the death total was more like 2000 (approximate). Which would make even the Tulsa race riots minor by comparison.
The riot lasted three days, was almost totally uncontrolled (no insult to the police of the time intended -- it's clear that they tried), Manhattan is a relatively compact and enclosed place, and was not concentrated in "slums" as in the riots of recent decades -- as the documentary stated repeatedly, the houses of the wealthy, and the businesses they owned, were very close to where the poor lived. Considering that the filmmakers didn't otherwise try to minimize the scale of the riot, stating the death total they did without at least mentioning the higher estimates is preposterous.
The higher estimates were major exaggerations by the press - none have been substantiated. The 150 figure is much closer to the truth.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Tulsa riot was just profiled on, I think, "60 minutes II". There's a local official who is running hearings into possibly repaying descendents of the riots for pain and suffering, and is spearheading the campaign to "undelete" this from Tulsa's history books.
--Mark
Just a reminder that tonights show should have the Interborough opening story (hopefully)..at least my satellite guide description lists 'subways' as one of the topics... Last nights show was kinda weird in that they did a half hour on the Brooklyn Bridge..which is weird because KEN Burns did a half hour on the Bridge about 15 years ago, where he basically invented this whole documentary-as- a- real-movie form..very strange...
Hi Folks, Once again Im posting that the R142s ARE HERE!!!!!!!! Yes the 1 CAR that was in Fresh Pond Yard has been moved and is NOW at Oak point yard. It appears to be a "B" car. or the back of an "A" car. Im not 100%
Tom.
Here's the correct numbers for the BCR train:
01 7145
02 7550 not 7750
03 7588
04 7168
05 7083
06 7136
07 7100
08 6721
Meaney noticed the era. As penance I will ride an R-68 tomorrow.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Gentlemen and Gentleladies;
May I respectfully suggest we change thread titles when the subject changes. The Q Train post became IRT Brooklyn Extensions and has developed into two separate threads,one dealing with baseball and another dealing with the Jamaica El. Since this thread has gone on for a few days I keep looking it up expecting to find discussion of the IRT in Brooklyn or the Brighton Line.
Thank you,Larry,RedbirdR33
Agree............
3TM
Anybody want to predict when the R-142's will go to the scrap heap? My prediction is and has been that they will go directly to the scrap heap. Definitely by 1-1-2000 , when you know what will happen.
Hopefully in the 205th decade. It would be nice, though not possible that the trains would already be in service by the date you mentioned, but that won't happen. At least the R-142s will be in service by the end of the millennium (hopefully!).
Hopefully, not for 60 years. Non-stainless steel cars rust. Non-air conditioned cars became obsolete. Cars with DC power and without the ability to interface with the signals will become obsolete.
But if the R142 is all stainless, it should last. And it's hard to think of a change to make it obsolete.
11/16/99
heypaul,
How about after the warranty expires ?
Bill Newkirk
How about after the warranty expires ?
Is that 90 days or 1 year? Maybe the MTA paid for an extended 3-year warranty.
Hopefully, the MTA is paying for the cars with a credit card. Maybe that will get them some extra time on their warranty.
I just thought of something. After the MTA's performance with the test trains, I wonder if they will subject each new car to 5 or 6 years of acceptance testing on the Sea Beach express tracks to be sure they are ready for service.
I'm still not ready to give up my belief that the cars will be scrapped immediately. I even thought that they would be delivered with a big S painted on them.
I am also disappointed that there was very little response to my subject heading : R-142 is spotted ( I thought they were supposed to be Stainless Steel)
I for one, am. I've always wanted to be in a position of authority, especially after my many years of institutionalization. So if you select me as Auxiliary Police Chief, you can be assured of having the fate of this website in the hands of the deranged. As a start, only posts pertaining to Abbott & Costello, The Three Stooges, Horn & Hardart Automats ( just thought I'd throw that in and start a thread of about 100 off-topic posts ), R9 air compressor sounds, Mack Buses, or discussions of the high quality of my posts would get on the message board.
If you're interested in joining, you will have to submit to a personality test, to determine if you are far enough gone to handle the pressures of this work. Once accepted, you will receive rigorous training in police work by Professor Mellonhead who will be ably assisted by a soon to be enlisted member of New York's Finest.
If you have any ideas or suggestions, keep them to yourself. I'm running this show.
> If you have any ideas or suggestions, keep them to yourself. I'm
> running this show.
Heypaul, knock it off.
-Dave
The elevated behind the firehouse on Third Watch? Well, the show is allegedly based in Manhattan, right? We all assumed that the el that was shown was some portion of the Broadway IRT. Sunday night, one of the characters had a seat on the stairs, right under the station sign:
6 Morrison-Sound View Avenues.
So it's in the southeast Bronx now.
-Hank
I saw the subject of 'rolling billboards' brought up in the MBTA Gallery of the Absurd.
A mesh covering coats a bus/trolley and an ad is painted on the covering, over the whole vehicle. So far no MTA bus has had this done to it, though some Queens Green Line buses have succumbed. Some MBTA Green Line trolleys, ditto.
Just wanted to mention...I despise them. They ruin the exterior of the bus, and worse, they make it near impossible to look out the windows!
Opinions?...
www.forgotten-ny.com
They are all over now. The nicest are in Hong Kong especially the Double Decker Trams. No 2 are the same, and it brings income to the Company. So why not
THe first time I saw one was in March 1993 outside my hotel in Fort Worth. Yech -- although this ad was mostly one color, green, which made it less annoying that some of the more bizarre color combos some of the other wrapped ads use.
On the Boston MBTA, "shrink wrapped" vehicles can be found on the Green Line, buses, and commuter rail.
If one green line trolley "rolling billboard" isn't enough, sometimes two (with different sponsors) are trainlined. A bright yellow car next to a deep blue car on the Green Line just doesn't cut it!
The worst looking application however is when ads are applied to Commuter Rail (Purple Line) bi-levels. There's one for ACELA running around right now.
[A mesh covering coats a bus/trolley and an ad is painted on the covering, over the whole vehicle. So far no MTA bus has had this done to it, though some Queens Green Line buses have succumbed. Some MBTA Green Line trolleys, ditto.]
AFAIK, the MTA refuses to allow these ads on their buses, citing security concerns.
Chicago's CTA has applied the mesh on some of the Blue Line (O'Hare) trains. I saw three trains with mesh laying over in the yard just east of O'Hare this past Sunday.
Ugly or not, whatever the agencies do that reduces the reliance on taxpayer subsidies (or increases revenue, period) is a good thing for transit.
-Hank
Hi Folks, Does any one have a clue is to where or when these cars will arrive to the # 7 line? Also what lines will they come from? The 1 & 3 or the 3 & 6? Please note there is NO POSSIBLE WAY TO CONNECT AN R62 TO AN R62A AND RUN THE MIXED SETS INTO PASSENGER SERVICE!!! THE SAME GOES FOR THE R44/R46!!!!! Where will the red birds go to? The 3/6 or both lines? Thank you.
Tom
If they need singles to make up the 11th car, then look for cars to come from the 3 in addition to those from the 6. R62s and 62As are not entirely incompatible as you might think. I'm sure there are mechanical differences, but not enough to make the cars incompatible. I can recall a time in which R62s and 62As were coupled together in a shop move.
R44s and 46s? Those are incompatible....
I can see the 6 being completely R36, and the 3 may be R36 in part.
-Stef
The word on the No.6 Pelham line R62A's will be going to the No.7 Line begining Jan. 15 2000. Also The No.6 Pelham will have a Full Redbird Fleet.
11/16/99
Dave,
When the R-62A's go from the #6 to the #7 will they at least be cleaned up,replace scratched windows so people on the #7 don't get that "hand me down" feeling?
Bill Newkirk
It will be strange going to a Met game next year in something other than an R36WF train. I've never ridden a single other type on the Flushing line, although I do remember riding the current "redbirds" when they were painted plain white. I always thought that color was like handing grafitti artists a blank canvas.
I don't know why they ever changed it from the blue & white worlds fair colors with some cars having state names on them. They were definitely the best looking IRT cars.
I don't know why they ever changed it from the blue & white worlds fair colors with some cars having state names on them. They were definitely the best looking IRT cars.
I agree. During the mid '60s, the TA even had the R-10's painted in the WF colors. It would have been nice if all non-stainless equipment was in those colors. I hated the silver and blue of the '70s. Red is a welcome change over silver and blue, but I prefer the WF colors. That light blue and grey is so pleasing to the eye. The 2-tone light blue interiors of the R-33/36, R-32, R-38, R-40, R-40M and R-42 should never been changed either.
Well you learn something new every day on this forum!! I thought that was the R-10's original colors!!!
I think the R10 was origionally painted IND gray with orange stripe, with "The City of New York" stenciled on the side. I could be wrong ...
<>i>I think the R10 was origionally painted IND gray with orange stripe, with "The City of New York" stenciled on the side. I could be wrong ...
The R-10's original colors were like 1575 in the Transit Museum
The only cars painted with "City of New York" were the pre-unification R units...LaGuardia was very big into letting the folks know what the city had paid for...According to "Subway to the Worlds Fair" private buses running to the fair, that the city had helped finance, had plaques in them letting everybody know who paid for it!
Well you learn something new every day on this forum!! I thought that was the R-10's original colors!!!
The original colors of the R-10's may be seen at the Transit Museum. Car #1575, the prototype of the R-10 is painted in the original R-10 colors. Here's a shot of 1575 in pre-museum days
Here's a shot of 1575 in the Transit Museum in original R-10 colors
If they move the R-62As to the #6 line, the IRT #6 will look like the 2 and 5 lines, with all redbird cars. When will the redbirds retire from passenger service?
James S. Li
Yesterday, I saw an IRT #5 train of R-62As. Why are they running those cars on the #5 line? They were borrowed from the #6 line.
James Li
To be used on the Dyre Ave. Shuttle at night. These trains have transverse cabs, and can be operated as OPTO trains (no conductor).
Four words: OPTO.
Chaohwa
I was just wondering how long will it take with all the talk about raising the fare and all will the fleet of redbirds become the minority of the IRT? will they not need them for a longer while than they may have predicted?
Redbirds will be with us for a while. Not enough R142s have been ordered to replace them all. My guess is at least to 2005.
In its capital plans, the MTA/TA is saying that the current yards are insufficent for taking care of the fleet. They're particularly upset that with the increase in fleet size, they'll have to use more "insecure" storage, so they want to build a new yard.
I wonder where a new yard could be sited. The TA doesn't say. Where is there sufficient space for a new yard that is convenient to existing B Division lines?
There's lots of available space in the Rockaways, but that's really out of the way for the vast majority of the fleet.
There's also the possibility of creating an elevated yard in Coney Island to store trains on a second deck. This isn't any different from the use of multi-deck parking garages to increase parking capacity in a limited space.
--Mark
But how feasable would a multilevel yard ve due to the small grade that trains can climb? Sure there would be an expansion, but at what expense since you would lose some tracj area due to the slope with the low grade?
Maybe they can get those mechanical elevators they use to park 3 cars vertically over each other in open air lots. It would need to lift 10 cars at a time, though. Might be cheaper to find another option.
Thats a lot of tourque...
Access to the upper level yard could be made via extensions of the Culver or West End approaches into the yard.
Transfers from the upper to the lower level could be made by a loop track running on the outside permieter of the yard. The lower level loop track would have to be extended under the Belt Pkwy to make room for this transfer track.
--Mark
Isn't there some vacant land within the Coney Island Yard complex? It certainly looks like there is when passing through on the N.
How about filling in Coney Island Creek and adding storage tracks on top of it?
How about dredging Coney Island creek and parking trains in it.
Well, thats what I said. Nobody uses that body of liquid (I hesitate to label it "water"). The extra land saved would provide for an expansion of the Coney Island Yard. The only snag in plan would be the inevitable enviornmental nightmare that lies below the surface of this creek. In fact, I'd shudder to see what kind of contamination that exists on the land all across the Coney Island Yard. Love Canal?
In the 40s and 50s rumors were it was a Mafia Dump Grounds
11/18/99
If we read our history books,Coney Island Creek was filled in east of where the creek dead ends. Coney ISLAND was an island indeed!
Bill Newkirk
For a long time there was serious talk of expanding Canarsie yard. However, in the last few months it has become obvious that the large tract of land that is between E. 105th Street and Rockaway Pwky stations is being used to build new 1-2 family houses.
It is interesting to note however, that even with the houses and backyard area taken into consideration, there is still room enough to do a smaller expansion of Canarsie yard (maybe an additional 4-5 track layup area).
Doug aka BMTman
How about using part of the old Pennsy Sunnyside Yards in LIC or NYC Mott Haven in the BX, They could always run a extension from the Subway, Just suggestion
Although there migh not be room, one at the end of the R line in BayRidge would be my first choice. It would allow an increase in service, ease overcrowding at the Jamaica yard, and allow the M to be routed towards 95th Street, where it belongs.
Outside of the South Bronx near Oak Point, I can't think of anyplace that could handle an open-air yard without major NIMBY action (the south Bronx would be minor NIMBY, but it would be there). Oak Point's problem is there's no really close connection to the IND/BMT lines, unless the MTA builds that upper Second Ave. line and extends it into the Bronx.
Actually, you would have major NIMBY action in the South Bronx. Look at the community opposition to the trnasfer station to be placed in Hunts POint. Its only that this NIMBY would be ignored due primarily to racism. However, the community would be as adamant as any other.
The definition of major is "not ignored." All other NIMBY action is minor.
How about tearing down the Projects in Coney Island and expanding Coney Island yard?
I don't think making people homeless just to make more train yard space can be sold to the public.
I don't think making people homeless just to make more train yard space can be sold to the public.
Geez, and my wife told me that I'm too serious!
Hey! Lets make a train yard out of Prospect Park!
An even better idea would be to put a train yard in Bronx Park, at the zoo. Then we can see hippos, side-by-side with hippos.
Actually, the 180th St. yard does border the zoo property in Bronx Park. The storage area for the Wild Asia monorail cars is just acoss the fence from where redbirds are stored.
Actually, the 180th St. yard does border the zoo property in Bronx Park. The storage area for the Wild Asia monorail cars is just acoss the fence from where redbirds are stored.
Lets have hippos with hippos and redbirds with Tucans. We can even house some exotic birds inside the redbirds instead of scrapping them. I don't think a hippo would fit inside a hippo, though.
Granted, more storage space for 'off main line storage' is needed. However, I don't think we need look at rediculous solutions. There is room for 25 additional tracks in Jamaica Yard. There is a proposed subay yard in Sunnyside yard that will encompass more that 70 tracks. More storage for IND and IRT can be built in the old west side freight yards, connecting to the 8th ave and 7th Ave lines. Fresh pond yard can be expanded simply by relocating the bus storage and of course Linden shops can support a moderate amount of storage too.
Oh, darn. I was so hoping to see them put it on top of the Fresh Kills land fill.
LOL. You actually thought I was serious when I implied you were serious.
Allright, i've just managed to confuse myself.
"I don't think making people homeless just to make more train yard space can be sold to the public."
In what universe does "tear down huge public housing complexes" automatically equal "leave all the former residents homeless"?!?
Chicago Housing Authority has torn down a large portion of its high-rise projects and is in the process of clearing the rest. The residents are being relocated to scattered-site public housing (low-rise buildings in neighborhoods of otherwise privately-owned housing) or subsidized privately-owned housing. This kills three birds with one stone: reducing the Housing Authority's costs in the long run, complying with desegregation requirements, and reclaiming the former project neighborhoods for tax-paying development. IMHO, the residents are better off for it, not worse off.
Chicago Housing Authority has torn down a large portion of its high-rise projects and is in the process of clearing the rest. The residents are being relocated to scattered-site public housing (low-rise buildings in neighborhoods of otherwise privately-owned housing) or subsidized privately-owned housing. This kills three birds with one stone: reducing the Housing Authority's costs in the long run, complying with desegregation requirements, and reclaiming the former project neighborhoods for tax-paying development. IMHO, the residents are better off for it, not worse off.
You know, I didn't even think about it that way. I just meant it tongue-in-cheek. But you know something, you're right. All the projects are, are segregated high rise filthy vermin-infested ghetto slums full of drugs, violence and crime. Chicago did have the right idea.
Several of the City's housing projects are dangerous, and nearly all of them are eyesores, but the overall public housing picture has never been as grim here as in Chicago. After all, there's a pretty long waiting list to get into NYCHA. If we spend the money to tear down and replace all that ugly, but functional, housing, we'll never have the dough four our subway extensions.
I agree. That statement was meant as sarcasm. I wish all the hi-rise projects would be replaced.
["I don't think making people homeless just to make more train yard space can be sold to the public."
In what universe does "tear down huge public housing complexes" automatically equal "leave all the former residents homeless"?!?
Chicago Housing Authority has torn down a large portion of its high-rise projects and is in the process of clearing the rest. The residents are being relocated to scattered-site public housing
(low-rise buildings in neighborhoods of otherwise privately-owned housing) or subsidized privately-owned housing.]
That's Chicago. The city government in Chicago actually can get things done properly. In New York, the city government can do *nothing,* or at least it seems that way (two years to repave a road, 14 years to build a school, 70 years of talk for the Second Avenue subway, _ad nauseum_).
HOw familiar are you with the NYC housing market?
Capital plans call for the construction of a new 70+ track yard on thenorth side of Sunnyside yard. There would be a connection from the #7 line between Rawson and Queens Plaza and there will e a connection from the R/G line at 46th St. The #7 connection is very important because Corona cars will no longer need to go to Coney Island to turn them around.
11/16/99
Re: New yard on #7 line between Queens Plaza and Rawson St.
WOULDN'T THAT BE A YARD LEAD WITH A STEEP RAMP FROM THE EL TO THE YARD??
Bill Newkirk
Ever see the fly-over from the #1 line into 207th St. I don't think the grade will be an issue as the yard is supposed to be at the east end of Sunnyside.
WOW! Now we're talking!!! I somehow get the feeling that the abandoned trackways from the days of joint IRT/BMT operation will be utilized for this plan. What about shops? I would expect that there a shop for the fleet eh? What about a track connection to the Astoria line for the N Line Fleet? Is that possible?
-Stef
The plan as currently written calls for a diesel/work train facility but no revenue car maintenance facility. with the cross-over north of Queensboro Plaza, it would not be difficult to get Astoria trains into the new yard. However, rather than that, any BMT train could come through the 11th St. cut onto the Queens Blvd. line. There is supposed to be another lead from the 46th St. station into the yard.
The plan as currently written calls for a diesel/work train facility but no revenue car maintenance facility
Anything about the 36th St (Brooklyn) MOW yard? Would this continue as an MOW yard or would it be considered for revenue train storage?
--Mark
I always though it would be better to store out of service M trains at this yard, freeing up space at Coney Island. During the PM rush, when M trains are put into service at Bay Parkway, there is a logjam all up and down the West End line. It would be better to put those trains into service at 9th Ave instead.
Of course, this means I would have to endure riding the B train full of high school students for more than the one stop that I presently have to.
BTW, where do those tracks that continue to go straight as the train turns down into the 4th Ave. tunnel just north of 36 St. go? They have no third rail, and I can't think of anyplace they might lead to.
[ tracks south of 4th avenue east of 38th ]
That's what left of the South Brooklyn Railway, the NYCTA's freight carrying subsidiary. This same right-of-way brought Culver and West End trains to a ferry connection at the shore a century ago.
Most people think the dual-modes are the first trains to Penn Station from non-electrified territory. However in the book "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George they talk on page 13 of DDI Operation, ending in 1951. Steam or diesel locomotves would haul a train from non-electrified lines to Jamaica where they would switch locos to a DDI electric loco for the ride to Penn. There is a picture of a train from Penn to Oyster Bay on the last day (6/22/51) of the one seat ride with the electric DDI pulling it. Since the author doesn't go into it that much (After all, it IS a book about the Rockaway Branch) maybe someone can elaborate. Anyone with first hand rmemberances?
Also, maybe someone knows: Why can't they have a diesel haul electric cars such as the M1 or M2 through non-electric territory and just ditch the loco when they get to electric territory. They could somehow run the lights and A/C on a battery or something.
My late father described changing locomotives out of Penn. It was the first time I ever heard this. If fact, I only learned this when he described taking a train from Penn to his home station at Avenue J, on the Manhattan Beach Line.
I did a double take, since I knew Manhattan Beach LIRR operation was steam only and no steam went into Penn. He then told me they changed locomotives in Sunnyside.
He could have been no older than 15 or 16 as this service ended in 1924.
I have also heard or read that the current setup of mass changes at Jamaica is a post-WWII phenonmenon, but I don't know where I learned of this or any detail.
BTW, I assume you are referring to DD-1 (one) locomotives, so designated because they had the same wheel arrangement as two Pennsy "D" class locos back to back.
Similarly, despite many other colorful explanations, GG-1 were so named because they had the same wheel arrangement as two Pennsy "G" (4-6-0) locos back to back.
11/17/99
Jeff,
It sounds like you are refering to the experimental Gas Turbine (M-1 type) cars that were a failure. They were built about 1975,M-1 style bodies and used jet fuel to power them in unelectrified territories. They were odd ball and unique. One four car set (GE?) was used in Bronx local service on Metro North as electric only. The other four cars (Garrett) just collected dust in Morris Park for years. They were scrapped about 10 years ago. The ERA November 1978 fantrip was a blast!
Bill Newkirk
If you've ever been past New Haven on Amtrack, you know that it is a pain in the *** to sit around in the station while locos are being switched. Your suggestion would cut the switching time a bit since you would only have to move one loco instead of two. On the other hand, self-propelled cars suffer a weight penalty compared to the same cars w/o propulsion units. Accordingly, it's more effecient to pull non-motorized cars with a loco than to pull unpowered motorized cars with the same loco. It's not the A/C and lights that are the problem; they could be powered from the loco. It's just more efficient to have a dual mode loco -- always assuming that someone knows how to make one that really works -- pulling unmotorized cars on a trip that has one end where you can't use electric and the other where you can't use diesel.
On the other hand, self-propelled cars suffer a weight penalty compared to the same cars w/o propulsion units. Accordingly, it's more effecient to pull non-motorized cars with a loco than to pull unpowered motorized cars with the same loco.
So are you saying it be more efficient to run the subway with locomotives pulling trailers? After all, rapid transit steam engines pulled el cars.
If you're not saying this, why not?
What I am saying is that if they turned off the 3rd rail electricity in the subway -- permanently -- it would make more sense to replace the current rolling stock with trailers instead of just hitching locos to the existing equipment.
The previous post had asked why they don't use self-propelled cars over the electrified portion of a route and then just hook a Diesel on the front for the rest of the route instead of using a dual mode loco for the whole trip. My answer focused on the relative efficiency of pulling around a bunch of non-functioning electric motors in Diesel territory as compared to pulling trailers the whole way with a dual mode.
On further reflection, it's more complicated than I first thought: you have to take into account the weight of the non-functioning Diesel engine within the dual mode during the part of the trip in which it is turned off as well as the weight of the electric propusion units in the hypothetical self-propelled cars during the part of the trip in which they would be turned off.
That's why not.
Oh, OK. I reread your posts. I missed that point about having a locomotive pull dead motorized units.
But I'm not sure anyone would actually do this except in an emergency situation.
Many years ago I heard the argument made against using anything but electric units (MU or locomotive) on any but lightly used lines. The point was that it doesn't make sense for a train to have to haul around its prime mover power supply rather than have the power generated off line.
The reasons are two: the extra weight of power generating equipment; and the inefficiency of having power generation broken down to many individual locomotives instead of a central power plant.
Is there any web site, or on this site, that has general statistics about various subways in the country? Things like average ridership, number of cars, route miles, etc.
Thanks.
The Federal Transit Administration tends to have this sort of thing. Look under "National Transit Database".
There is a book published in the UK by Capital Transport: World Metro Systems by Paul Garbutt which has a lot of useful numbers in it. I can post the ISBN if you are interested.
Sure, post it. It would be helpful.
Here it is:
ISBN: 1854141910
I may be going for a job in Melville. What is the nearest LIRR station, and what bus runs along Rte. 110?
[I may be going for a job in Melville. What is the nearest LIRR station, and what bus runs along Rte. 110?]
There are a couple of Web sites that might be of use: carpoint.com and autobytel.com :-)
Seriously, Melville is not easily reached by mass transit. Huntington is probably the closest station to the Melville office park area. But keep in mind that there's limited reverse-peak LIRR service, and I suspect that Suffolk Transit service along Route 110 is inconvenient and probably infrequent (and if you'll ever work on a Sunday, nonexistent).
Huntington station would be best and there is a bus to Amityville that goes south on 110 past Melville although I know nothing about the bus.
Kevin --
I have a client in Melville, I normally get to their office by taking the train to Huntington and taking a taxi. It's about a 15 minute cab ride, so the bus will be quite a bit longer (the bus from Huntington probably goes on the tour de Walt Whitman mall on the way to Melville).
Your best bet may be Long Island Bus (the Nassau County bus system -- go figure), which runs a shuttle from the Farmingdale LIRR station to the Melville/Route 110 area. This is a relatively new service, and I've never actually seen it in operation. There's a little more at their website, (see http://www.lirr.org/libus/52routes.htm go all the way down to the bottom of the page, the route number is N95) but you'd probably be better off just calling them and having them send you a schedule (no schedules on their website just route descriptions).
Good luck,
Chuck
>>>>Your best bet may be Long Island Bus (the Nassau County bus system -- go figure), which runs a shuttle from the Farmingdale LIRR
station to the Melville/Route 110 area. This is a relatively new service, and I've never actually seen it in operation. There's a little more
at their website, (see http://www.lirr.org/libus/52routes.htm go all the way down to the bottom of the page, the route number is N95)<<<
That may be the best bet...how much is thecab from Huntington?
Be aware that cab service on LI is usually not like the City. You share the cab with others (cheaper that way) and you might take some side trips before getting to your destination.
Driving from Brooklyn (are you still there?) can be problematic too. City and LI highways at rush hours are not for the faint-hearted. Come to think of it, they're not for the strong-hearted, either.
If you like the job, consider moving here. Many other dyed-in-the-wool Brooklynites thought they'd take an apartment in Purgatory before they'd move to L.I., but...
Paul Matus
of Flatbush and Babylon
>>>If you like the job, consider moving here. Many other dyed-in-the-wool Brooklynites thought they'd take an apartment in Purgatory
before they'd move to L.I., but...<<
Thinking abt that too, but I have a rent controlled place in Flushing. I would need to find an affordable condo. I like Huntington, but who knows if those are available there.
Suffolk County simply isn't a particularly transit-oriented place if you exclude Manhattan commuters. Bus service is mediocre at best, generally inferior to Nassau's. Suffolk Transit still hasn't figured out that it should run Sunday service. The LIRR is fine as far as commuting into Manhattan is concerned, but has poor reverse-commute service. It's worth noting that none of the three big employment centers in Suffolk - Melville, the Hauppague Industrial Park, and the commercial/industrial zone around MacArthur airport - is located near an LIRR station.
Suffolk County Transit runs at a huge subsidy, mostly local taxpayers. I don't think it gets any MTA money at all, but it gets some state money.
It is mainly an accomodation for the transit dependent, running basically hourly on a wide range of routes.
[Suffolk County Transit runs at a huge subsidy, mostly local taxpayers. I don't think it gets any MTA money at all, but it gets some state money.
It is mainly an accomodation for the transit dependent, running basically hourly on a wide range of routes.]
I've often seen the S61 buses on Route 112 near me in Medford. The S61 runs between Port Jefferson and Patchogue, both of them relatively sizeable towns with active downtowns, and hence should be a fairly busy route. "Should" alas is not the same as "is." I've seldom seen more than two or three people on the buses, and quite frequently, even on Saturday afternoons, no passengers at all.
11/17/99
SUFFOLK TRANSIT DOES NOT USE THE METROCARD SYSTEM. BE WARNED!
Bill Newkirk
Part of the problem causing the low ridership is the sprawling geography of suburbia in general and Suffolk County in particular. While the S-61 is a logical north/south route, how far do I have to walk from my house in a development to Rte 111 to catch the bus. If I'm delayed by a last second phone call and miss the bus, then I have a one hour wait...Faster to get into my car.
I have only ridden Suffolk Transit twice many years ago. Both times it was the S-29 from Babylon to Walt Whitman Mall. The first time was 5:10 northbound from Babylon Rail.. The bus was 10 minutes late because of heavy mall traffic during the Xmas shopping season. One of the passengers was very nervous. The driver assured him that he would be at Jericho & DPA in time for his Hart connection. If he missed his connection he would have to walk home because his Hart connection was the last one of the day. How can HART send the last buses out at 6PM especially during Xmas when shoppers might want to go to the malls????
Also how could the S-29 have a last northbound bus at 5:20 PM. If I work in any of the numerous retail stores along the route, my work schedule would be 10AM-PM. Ergo, no bus to take me home. I have to drive.
The next time I took the S-29, the bus arrived at the stop 2 minutes ahead of schedule. When I got off near the WW Mall he was already about 8 minutes ahead of schedule. How many people missed the bus because he was early and how many connections were missed?
Also there is very little ongoing advertising by ST to make their presence known and to increase ridership. Until service is upgraded and improved most people will opt for the car.
If I remember correctly, the cab runs about $10. Probably too much for a daily commute. Also, depending on the weather cabs may or may not be available at the station when you arrive.
The last few trips out there, I've had someone from the client just meet me at the station with their car.
Chuck
I worked in Jericho for about 4 years. I found that going by LIRR was terrible. There were not enough trains to Hickville in the morning and the bus ride was awful. Melville has to be worse. If you are going to work out there you have to drive or it will be an unpleasent experience.
Yeah, most workplaces in LI are geared to drivers. I have had a good experience in that my place has run a van between the Port Wash station and the workplace.
What I might do is make the best of it for awhile, but learn to drive and get a used car if the commute is unbearable but the job is otherwise good.
I only did it one day a week for two years until we got a second car. When my company transferred me out there, I left my wife stranded at home with a six month old baby, and she wasn't too pleased. I gave her the car one day a week and took the LIRR.
The schedule was nuts. There was no train out of Jamaica between 6:20 and 8:00A.M. Going home wasn't much better. There was not train leaving Hicksville between 4:45 PM and 6:30 PM.
The bus went to the Jericho Quad. I worked on the other side of Jericho Tpke in the Plaza. I had to run across 55 MPH traffic to get to the office.
On the way home, I usuall bummed a ride from someone back to Hicksville. Once we got the second car, that was it for the railroad.
If you must go by transit, your best bet is to take the Babylon Line to Amityville, and then take the S-1 bus. See the latter's schedule at the Suffolk Bus website.
It is 25 scheduled minutes from Amityville to the Huntington Quadrangle offices in Melville, a bit south of the L.I.E. It is actually faster than to Huntington Station, probably because Rt.110 is a bigger highway southbound than northbound. Buses run half-hourly all day and every 15 minutes rush hour, which is as good as it gets in Suffolk.
Other stations (like Farmingdale) may be physically closer, but the Babylon Branch is the only one with really frequent service, especially off-peak and reverse peak.
NYS DOT ran or runs something galled the Rt. 110 Flyer bus, but I have no idea how this runs, if it runs, where it runs, or if it isn't the same thing as the S-1 bus.
Riding Suffolk Buses in general is not the most fun you can have with your clothes on.
The Suffolk Clipper is operated by Harran Coachways under contract from either Suffolk County or NYS or a combo. They run luxury motorcoaches from the Park-n-Rides along the LIE in Suffolk to Rte 110 where it turns south and proceeds into several of the office parks.
Kevin, you didn't say where in Melville your interview is. The S-1 runs north/south from Halesite (several miles north of Huntington Rail) to Amityville Rail. It may go in and out of the office parks, but there are several office parks on Pinelawn Road (which starts at Rte 110 between NSP and LIE) and proceeds southeast until it becomes Wellwood Ave.) If your interview is on Pinelawn Road (such as Newsday) you will HAVE A VERY LONG WALK from Rte 110.
>>>Kevin, you didn't say where in Melville your interview is.<<<
If they deign to have me in, it would be at Cygnus Publishing at 443 Broad Hollow Road.
Does the S-1 go to Amityville Station?? The station is not at rt. 110.
Does the S-1 go to Amityville Station?? The station is not at rt. 110.
Close enough. It's a short jog, which the bus takes. Apparently the bus no longer goes south of the station.
This was an important Suffolk trolley route, well covered in a book by Seyfried.
This may be a good idea, as the Babylon has considerably more reverse peak service. In fact, there are two trains which make only 2 stops (Freeport and Seaford) between Jamaica and Amityville. One leaves Jamaica at 7:31, arriving 8:02 the other is at 8:11 arriving 8:41 with a local in between. At least there's more flexibility than just the Farmingdale train to a shuttle which may not run that frequently.
As an aside, I'd always wondered about the logic behind those Jamaica-Freeport-Seaford-Amityville-Babylon trips, perhaps the existence of the Route 110 bus at least explains the Amityville part of it. (Freeport I can understand as well, but Seaford?)
Chuck
From the Huntington RR the S1 bus runs N/S on Route 110. It goes from LI Sound to Great South Bay ... a long run across the entire island.
From the Farmingdale RR there is a LI Bus "S" which runs up Melville Road then Route 110 until it makes a left onto Walt Whitman Rd. It turns around to go South just North of the LIE.
Tip: LIRR provides more service to 3rd rail stations, problem the end of elect. service may be too much of a bus ride for you, so you'll need to catch very specific trains/buses.
LI Bus call 516-766-6722
SCT (Suffolk County Transit) call 516-852-5200
I happen to have an extra SCT map, e-mail me off-line with your snail-mail address & I'll send it to you.
Mr t__:^)
I am looking for information etc (dimensions, examples) of subway car posters for a graphic design project...If anyone can help me please email back asap....
Thnx
The big almost square poster on the side walls is 22" H x 20 7/8" W.
Saw this today at 59th & Lex: With the new metrocard iron-maiden, two thin people can easily go through at the same time (using only one fare).
That gives new meaning to the term "IRON MAIDEN"
Yeah, but think of all the fat people who can't use those new iron maidens. Sorta balances out over time.
Hey! I resemble that remark! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are lots of ways, atleast on the CTA.
Two people can easily fit throgh the new farcard turnstiles which make 100% of the CTA turnstiles. Once in a while I see two people hold on to each other and go through.
I never thought of the High-baracade with two people going through. I hate those things and can't imagine two people getting caught in one.
I must admit that there aren't many people that jump/bypass on the CTA anymore. Even the meanest looking thug pulls out his transit card. Atleast during the day-time hours. Can't really say during the overnight periods when nobody is attending the station.
BJ
The PATCO system in Philly looks easy to quite easy to fare dodge. Nobody's on duty at the stations, the turnstyles are only like 3 feet high with not other barriers around them and they even leave the handicapped gates next the turnstyles unlocked. However PATCO hired Big Brother to watch the stations so even when you think no one's looking and you've gotten away with it that cracking sound you hear will be your skull making contact with a PATCO night stick.
BTW anybody been to France? There it's a national past-time to fare jump the paris metro. This can be quite entertaining to watch and I noted that only about %50 of the people actually pay. They know every trick in the book: 2-for's, 3-for's, jumping, crawling, leaping and outright crashing.
People in my school have been doing that for a long long long long long long long time.
My favorite is to see someone jump the turnstyle and get on a train that is wrong railing. The expression on their faces is priceless
Saw this on the R this morning, an R46 train that had one dead car. No lights on and the doors didn't open at the station. But the electronic sign was operational.
It might have been "isolated". They usually do that to keep a train in service with one car thats unsafe for passangers. Usually, a broken window precipitates this.
Anyone know what they're doing on uptown side of BMT Broadway (N/R) line between Time Square/42nd and 49th Street stations? Train this morning CRAAAWWWLLLLLLED through, and there were work lights, workers and supplies all over the place. Looks like they're doing some demolition north of the north end of the Times Square uptown platform (part of the big Time Square station rehab) but does anyone know what all the rest of it is?
Maybe they're tearing out the underpass which connected the original IRT local platforms at Times Square. The Broadway line passes directly beneath the present shuttle station and the express tracks spread out to accommodate this underpass which was closed long ago, presumably when the shuttle assumed its present configuration.
Metro-North has re-issued all four timetables with the Harlem, Hudson and New Haven Lines being effective from October 31,1999 to April 1,2000. The new is that the Port Jervis Timetable now includes the Pascack Valley Line as well. Previous to this one had to use the NJT Pascack Valley Line Timetable for this information.
The special Thanksgiving Schedules shuold be out by tomorrow.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Are the non-GCT schedules available at GCT, do you know? Or just Harlem, Hudson, New Haven? How bout the other way round: H, H & NH schedules available at Penn?
You should be able to get the MN Port Jervis/Pascack Valley Schedule at the info booth. Just ask. I think if you go to Penn they will give you the NJT Main Line/Bergen County Line one which has the same info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I've always been able to get the MN Port Jervis timetable at GCT and the NJT one at Penn Station. As Redbird says, just ask.
According to BLE News Flash, Daimler Chrysler's Adtranz subsidiary is closing six plants including the facility in Elmira, NY. Phaseout of production is supposed to take until March when only maintenance workers will have jobs.
[According to BLE News Flash, Daimler Chrysler's Adtranz subsidiary is closing six plants including the facility in Elmira, NY. Phaseout of production is supposed to take until March when only maintenance workers will have jobs.]
Figures. I'm angry at Daimler Chrysler for killing off the Plymouth marque. My first car when I was a high school student was a used Valiant, and that car was a gem. It used to be said that the Slant 6 engines in many Plymouths, including my Valiant, were built so tough that you could drain the oil and drive for 100 miles, and they'd still be running (no, I didn't try that!) Daimler Chrysler seems to be firmly in the hands of the bean counters today, and history means nothing to them.
Will the Chicago 2600 series rebuild order be completed by then, or will they leave money on the table and cars not fixed?
To all Boston subtalkers: This month's "Improper Bostonian" magazine (Nov. 17-30) is a special "T" issue. It gives a good report on the history and future of America's oldest subway, as well as pet peeves from passengers. There are also some good pics of Breda's Type 8 trolley. It's worth buying....several pages dedicated to transit!!-Nick
Is there any way somebody outside of Boston may be able to get a hold of this magazine? Do they have a website?
On a somewhat related topic, there's a pretty strong possibility I will be moving to Boston this coming summer. Any pointers out there for somebody moving from Chi-town to Beantown? I've already been informed that I must bury my New York Yankees hat, as well as keep my true feelings about Ted Kennedy to myself. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I like Boston. It is a vibrant town. Some of the big newstands in New York City, have a whole section of out of town City magazines. I don't know if this one is widely distributed.
If you drive a car, prepare for bedlam. Boston drivers have a reputation for chaos that I think is unmatched. And I think most Bostonians will proudly agree with that. There's a very humorous guide book to owning and driving a car in Boston, that tries to help a newcomer adjust to the prevailing mind set. Especially intriguing are the traffic circles where you are supposed to enter and leave them without any regard for other drivers. Then I think there is or was an intersection where 5 or 6 roads feed into, and if I remember correctly there are no traffic signals or stop signs. That would be a great place for a cable tv station to post a camera and just feed video of the intersection. Todd Glickman could probably fill us in on some of this stuff.
And certainly the transit system is a varied and interesting one. Cambridge's electric buses, the trolleys, the Ashmont PCC cars.
And the greatest attraction is being in "Our Fair City", the home of Car-Talk, the home of Tom and Ray from NPR. Two brothers who really have a good time on the radio.
Ah, Boston traffic. I've had enough sense not to drive in it for many years. It's an even better argument for rail transit than the Belt Parkway or the Holland Tunnel at rush hour.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Excellent observations about Boston drivers, Paul. As I like to say, "I learned to drive in New York, but I PRACTICE in Boston!" We don't have "defensive driving"; it's called "advantage!"
My favorite intersection is a rotary (traffic circle) where there is a sign poining one way that says "Route 2 East - Route 16 South - Route 3 West." HUH? And just down the road from this rotary someone put up an autentic (obviously ..ahem.. procured) sign pointing to the Staten Island Ferry!
It's a great rapid transit town, with a good mix of vehicle types and operating characteristics. Best of all, it's only a 45 minute flight or four hour drive from NYC!
If you had LEARNED to drive in New England, the sign would make perfect sense. Think of a rotary as a computer storage device: it's sequential access, not random access. If the signs pointed in both directions, some litteral-minded New England drivers would follow the sign to the left as they entered the rotary. Those rotaries are hairy enough without people driving around them in both directions.
A friend of mine moved to Boston and when she went down to transfer her license at the Motor Vehicle Bureau, she said that there was no written test. I wondered whether the clerk told her that "Heah, in Boston, you can drive any way you want without interference from the King of England."
I just got a big laugh reading kma's post where the idea of the rotaries being two way was mentioned. That would really be something, especially at night.
I ride a bike in Brooklyn and Manhattan, but I don't know how long I would last in Boston.
About a year ago, when I was there last, I was astounded by the amount of noise that the older cars on the Red Line made. I also liked to watch the downtown stations on the Green Line in evening rush hour for the frequency of service. And I particularly liked the small town feel of the PCC Ashmont Extension.
I was also surprised at how well patrolled and orderly the Greyhound and other bus line terminal at South Street Station was.
Does that intersection with 5 or so roads feeding into 1 spot still exist? I would imagine that the big auto insurance companies would have a drive in claim center there.
I was astounded by the amount of noise that the older cars on
the Red Line made.
I share this observation. It sounded sometimes like every car had flat wheels.
--Mark
Me too. Last time I was on a red line car, I was barely able to hear myself think.
Me too. Last time I was on a red line car, I was barely able to hear myself think.
Yep, I hear you there. When I go to Harvard Square on teh red line, and have enough time to kill, I will let a 01500, 01600 or 01700 series car pass me, and wait for the 01800 series car to come (built by Bombardier, similar to the R110B/R143), which is much quiter.-Nick
Maybe wheel grinding is not a "Revered" job at the "T"?
Oh man!!! *groan*!!!
RIM SHOT!!!
I remember seeing traffic circles when we lived in New Jersey. There was a notorious circle on Rt. 23 where the Newark-Pompton Turnpike joins it which was known as "Killer Bend". You'd be going straight in the southbound lanes, then encounter a sharp 90-degree right hand turn. There were five yellow lights which would cumulatively come on to warn you, but that didn't prevent numerous accidents through the years. An interchange including an overpass was finally built in 1972-73, and the southbound lanes were straightened out. The northbound lanes always went straight ahead at that spot.
Luckily, all of the traffic circles on RT. 23 are gone now.
Isn't there one on Kings Hway in Bklyn W/O Flatbush Av? There is also one in the Bronx leading into City Is & Orchid Beach. The one traffic circle I really hate is by Jones Beach, where Ocean Pkway meets the Wantagh Pkway around the monument. Since its 2 highways the cars fly into it at high speeds. I'm usually there on a motorcycle.
To be honest, I don't know anything about them. There was another traffic circle in New Jersey which was gone by the time we moved there, yet one which I've heard a lot about: the one at Rt. 23 and US 46. Traffic would be backed up in all directions, I am told. It disappeared when construction began on I-80 in that area.
I think the Willowbrook Mall complex now stands where that circle used to be (you're talking about the old Rt. 23/46 circle, right?)
Jersey still has a number of traffic circles left, although on a smaller scale than highways.
There is one in Clifton, called Allwood Circle, where Allwood Road and Bloomfield Avenue (NOT the same one that goes to Newark!) meet.
You're ahead of me on that post! I'm very familiar with Willowbrook Mall and, as I just posted, that circle was gone by the time we moved to Jersey. The ones I remember were the aforementioned Killer Bend a mile or two north of US 46; Rt. 23 and US 202 with Ratzer Rd. thrown in; Rt. 23 and Jackson Ave. in my former town of residence, Pompton Plains; and the one on Rt. 23 in Riverdale just south of where I-287 intersects Rt. 23. Either the Newark-Pompton Turnpike (or just Turnpike, as it was called in Pompton Plains) or Boulevard were tied into it. Jug handle intersections occupy all those locations now.
Traffic Circles get a bad rap, but I love them. The problem is that people don't know how to 'drive' a circle. You need to remember that traffic in the circle has the right of way and that once you're in the circle you NEVER STOP (as much as possible at least). Once you're in the circle you need to ignore the other traffic trying to get in. Its their job to stop not yours. When ignorant drivers in the circle start stopping and letting people in, then you get big traffic back-ups. They recently replaced a bunch of circles in South Jersey along Rt. 70 with traffic lights. Now, instead of a 30 sec wait (max) to get into the circle, there's a 5 min wait at the light, garenteed. Also 2 of the circles they removed had the impressive record of NEVER having had a fatal car accident in and around the circle. Try and say that about most traffic lights.
You need to remember that traffic in the circle has the
right of way
This isn't true in all jurisdictions. It is in the District of Columbia, for example, but not in Maryland, which means that when you drive through Chevy Chase Circle, which straddles the DC/Maryland border, the rules change when you get halfway around the circle, only to change back when you complete the circuit.
Makes for some fun driving, I'm told. ;-)
-- Tim
There are still several on route 35 in Monmouth County - the Asbury Circle (routes 35 and 66), which is actually a double circle; the Manasquan Circle (route 35 near Manasquan, I don't remember the number of the county road that comes in there) and the Brielle Circle (routes 35, 34, and one other). There is also a circle at the intersection of routes 33 and 66 (along with some GSP exit and entrance ramps and some other side roads) west of Neptune, the Collingswood Circle where 33 west and 34 north divide near Collingswood Market, and another circle about a mile east where 33 east and 34 south divide. Plus lots more. Some remnants of the old Eatontown Circle are still there as part of the horrid intersection of routes 35 and 36. According to the police reports published in the local paper there is at least one accident a day there now, as compared to two a week when the Circle was in operation, but the severity of the accidents have declined because there is total gridlock from 5 AM until after midnight and no one's moving over 15 mph anyway. Monmouth Mall is a major contributor to the traffic, especially at this time of the year, and all the folks headed to the racetrack during the summer cause some major jams too - this in spite of the racetrack specials that NJ Transit runs on the North Jersey Coast Line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One thing about Boston that I didn't expect the first time I was there, was how geographically small the city is. The AAA map we were following in the car scaled up Boston/Cambridge to fill the entire back side of the map, but the intersections and rotaries (they're not traffic circles there, nope) appeared much faster than we were prepared for. Transit stops are also located close together in the downtown area, and much of the city is pleasantly walkable.
"Pahk Street, change heah for the Green Line."
Good luck trying to pahk your cahr.
I rode the LIRR today from Jamaica to Flatbush Avenue and took the opportunity to look for remnants of the former connection to the BRT 5 Avenue El at that location. I found what I think was a very pleasant surprise which is probably well known to the Brooklyn hands.
The LIRR line on Atlantic Avenue is parralled from Vanderbilt Avenue west to 5 Avenue by the Carlton Avenue Yards. The original line and yards were of course on the surface and the ramp left the LIRR main at Vanderbilt Avenue swung south and then west climbing to the level of the el tracks. The ramp also connected to a mercandise terminal north of Atlantic Avenue and west of 5 Avenue. The Atlantic Avenue Improvement began in 1904 and placed the mainline tracks underground and the accompanying yards tracks were lowered into a large open cut.
The ramp now began at Carlton Avenue and rose to about the street level to just east of 6 Avenue where it continued to climb as an el structure. Although the connection to the BRT was very shortlived (1899 to 1904). The tracks to the merchhandise terminal remained until 1940 when the merchandise terminal closed. What remains today is the ramp which is earthen fill in concrete rising from Carlton Avenue to just short of 6 Avenue with footings in the concrete for the connection to the steel el tracks. Even though there is much construction in the area it looks like this bit of history is fairly safe.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There were remnants of the el ramp metalwork until at least the early 1970's when I was attending Brooklyn Tech. Since those High School days I always thought that it connected the Fifth Avenue El with the LIRR but never realized there was another purpose. Further you confirmed my thoughts about the ramp structure in front of that old newspaper building. Thanks for the info.
Gary: Thanks for confirming the existence of the steel pillars. I understand they were used as supports for billboards,but until the other day I had never been above ground in that particular area.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I think Bob Anderson could help out here as well, but I will let you know something that I remember as a kid:
I seem to recall a steel el structure above the Carlton Ave. yards (or remnants of one) that was still up till the late 60's or early 70's. And there used to be an old steam engine -- perhaps with tender -- atop the structure. The exact location was approximately across from S. Elliot Place along the south side of Atlantic Ave.
Does anyone else have recollections of the above?
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: I wonder if the steam loco could have been one of the old BEDT units. I know that one of these creatures sat on the PRR tracks in the Jersey Meadows during the middle sixties and could be seen from PATH trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Sure, there was a half-block long stretch of El along the south of the LIRR terminal. I'm pretty sure it was removed about 10 years ago (as was the piece of the 5th Ave El crossing 6th Avenue, 1 block north of Flatbush Ave.
As many of you know the R-68's are not the fastest cars on the system. However today I was waiting for the shuttle at the Botanical Garden Station a two car trains of R-68's consisting of 2922 in the lead with 2923 bringing up the rear ambled down the line from park place. As the little train approached BG I was reminded of "The Little Engine That Could." You could almost hear the cars mumbling,'I think I can,I think I can." It was a particularly bucolic setting even in a subway tunnel. If you looked out either end you could see bright sunshine and a roadbed covered with yellow leaves. I daresay not much changed in a hundred years. The little train made its way to Prospect Park and here we saw what happens when they let the R-68's out on the mainline. An eight car D train labored to get out of the tunnel. These are the only subway cars that could get a ticket for loitering on an express run. I ran into my old friend the turtle from the Prospect Park Zoo. He explained that himself and the other turtles frequently cross the tracks to vist relatives in the Botanical Garden Pond. The R-68's pose no problems for the speedy reptiles although my friend did say that a turtle was struck by a train some time ago but that the turtle had actually died of heart failure two days earlier. He did say that they have to be careful on weekdays when the Q's are running with the R-40's because they seem to known what the "rapid" means in rapid transit.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hey, Larry -- I LOVE your post!!! Very Funny.
Doug aka BMTman
OK, is "heypaul" disguising himself as Larry, RedbirdR33?
Seriously, very cute!
--Mark
The R-68s would most likely say, "I think I can, I..think..I..can, I...think....(gasp)..I....(cough)...can, I'm.....not..(gasp, cough)....going.....to....(major coughing fit)......make............it. Aaarrrghhh!!!
Everybody out and push!
Have you seen this car?
Name: Kawasaki R-68
Height:12 feet
Width:10 feet
Length:75 feet
Wait:A long time if you're riding the B, D or S with these slowpokes.
Distinguishing features:Full cab, unusual groaning sounds when climbing grades, crossing switches, passing stations or entering Prospect Park from Atlantic Avenue.
Last known whereabouts:Somewhere along the Grand Concourse and Brighton Lines or stuck on the Manhattan Bridge. Cars entering tunnel haven't been seen for weeks at a time.
Witnesses describe cars as slow, dumpy-looking and a serious threat to sedentary subway rats on Central Park West.
If you know where these cars are, please, keep the information to yourself and get us a new fleet!:)
That was nice!!!!!!! I enjoyed that!!!!!!!!:):):)
3TM
ACTUALLY those are ANF-Westinghouse (Jeumont-Schneider or Alsthom (ADTRANZ!) for the secondary contractor) R68s. What is that doing with a "Q" sign on it? That is a disgrace to the "Q" line and the cars that populate it.
The Kawasaki R68A are at home on the "B" line. A few of the ANF-Westinghouse ones run there too. I think the Kawasaki R68A can actually REACH 40MPH between 36th Street and Pacific Street, but they can be easily beaten by trains like the D-Type Triplex, etc.
Wayne
Maybe the photo was taken before the equipment switcheroo.
The Q line should be declared off limits to those lumbering lardbuckets.
Jeumont-Schneider was the first subcontractor from Westinghouse-Amrail and Alsthom or GEC-Alsthom was the second I think.
You are correct - the lower-numbered ANF-Westinghouse R68s (2500-2600 and some 2700s) say "Jeumont-Schneider" on the builder's plate, the remainder (2700-2800-2900) say "Alsthom". No mention of AnThrax (AdTranz).
Wayne
The picture downloaded slowly. Very appropriate.
Yeah, those R-10 pictures pop up in an instant on your screen.
LOL
With a mighty roar, I'll bet.
11/20/99
Subway Steve,
In your descriptions you left out , absence of HEAT in the winter.
Bill Newkirk
Brrrrrr!!!
Back on November 8th I had the pleasure of the company of Simon Billis and subway-buff and we did the "Q" from 47-50th Street to Sheepshead-Bay at the front window of #4230, an R40 in fine form.
Somewhere around Avenue "J" we saw the tail-lights of a "D" train lumbering sleepily along the local track. We overtook the "D" between stations and passed it as if it were standing still. Down between Avenue "U" and Neck-Road we passed another one (catching up with it at the Bay). Rapid transit, indeed! We topped out at a leisurely 42MPH.
We also reached 45MPH between 7Ave and Prospect Park and the T/O breezed through GT #409 at 35, which is what it's posted for.
Wayne
They need to equip the slants with Road Runner "beep-beep" horns. Not to mention a tongue to stick out at those D trains...
Has anyone heard of or have any information about a company. The NEW YORK CITY CENTRAL UNDERGROUND RAILWAY COMPANY founded circa March 1, 1871 with the President a man named Oliver Barnes and Secretary L (or E) m. Jerome. I know this existed because I have a document from this company. But have never found any info about it. Thanks for any help.
Tonight, I was on the D train when it stopped short entering Tremont Ave. It seems that some skel was on the tracks, apparently collecting cans. We pulled him out, unharmed but the train was removed from service none the less to permit the crew to be tested. Thousands were delayed.
Meanwhile, yesterday, in the early morning hours (4 AM) a female jumped in front of a B train at 34th St. Even though there are those who say it can't happen, she was trapped between the car and the platform edge. It's been a rough two days on the 6th Ave lines.
[Meanwhile, yesterday, in the early morning hours (4 AM) a female jumped in front of a B train at 34th St. Even though there are those who say it can't happen, she was trapped between the car and the platform edge.]
I assume she didn't survive?
B at 34 Street so early?
I was thinking the same thing. Either it was later, or it was a D train.
Unless it was the 63rd. St. shuttle?
I have been told by the covering union rep that the woman was a mugging victim who had been shoved to the roadbed in order for the criminal to make his getaway. The train operator was very shook up afterwards. This happened at 34th and 6th to a B.
Did the lady survive?
The lady did not survive.
[We pulled him out, unharmed but the train was removed from service none the less to permit the crew to be tested. Thousands were delayed. ]
Why should they need to be tested if they did nothing wrong?
remember, guilty until proven innocent! ;-)
Any time there is an incident such as this, the crew must be tested. This is because, while the subject of the incident was not injured and, in fact, fled the scene, that is not to say that the emergency brake application did not cause injuries among the customers or at least give someone an excuse to sue. Indicating that the crew was fit for duty will most likely blunt any potential lawsuit.
glad to hear that in philadelphia the M4 has railfan windows !!
i used to ride the old red BROAD STREET (orange) subway line with a
1928 philadelphia subway car !!!
And back in 1976 I experenced the ALMOND JOY cars on the frankford
elevated line !! PATCO was alright too !!!!
BUT HOWEVER !!!??? my last visit to NYC almost NO RAILFAN WINDOWS
# 1 3 6 9 B F G Z S J K L M T SS 4 !!!!!!!!!!!!!
the Q to ROOSEVELT ISLAND was wonderful; !!
my rail fan vidieos of the number 7 seven day and night came out good plus 2 5 Q A E N
HOWEVER !!! lets face it !!! ATLANTA LOS ANGELES SAN FRANCISCO etc
the rail fan window is an endangered species !!! extinct !!
11/17/99
THEY ARE BECOMING EXTINCT BY THE DREADED MONSTER "OPTO"
Bill Newkirk
They say old habits never die!!
I usually don't stand at the railfan window too much anymore (unless I'm with my 3yr old son) yet whenever I enter a subway station I subconsciencely gravitate to the front of the platform. Conversely when I wait at a LIRR station I usually gravitate to the rear, from the days the trains ran without a rear locomotive and you can stand outside on the rear platform with nothing between you and the tracks but chains.
Sad but true.
All the more reason to hope the R-32s, R-38s, R-40s (both varieties), and R-42s are retained in the immediate future.
I accept the fact that time is running out on our beloved Redbirds.
Some of the remaining single R-62As have been reworked with a full-width cab on one end, perhaps in anticipation of being included in a 5-car set. I rode on a 3 train with such a setup last month. At first, I thought, a 10-car 3 train? After getting off at 72nd St., I watched it depart, as is my custom, and saw random car numbers and counted 9 cars. I caught another 3 train on my return trip, but this time car 1969 still had its railfan window, and the train reached 47 mph by the time we reached 50th St. Now, THAT was exciting!
Does anyone know whether the R-142s or R-143s will have them?
They've got full-width cabs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Over the weekend a man lost his life under a Red Line train at the Silver Spring station. Officials do not know exactly how it happened. They're speculating that his leg got caught between the platform and the train or that he fell between the cars.
In another incident the WMATA Transit Police reported that a man (pervert) has been rubbing himself on female passengers aboard crowded trains.
Wayne
Tell the preisdent to stay off the Red Line.
my brother and I used to visit it at grand central in tne late 60`s.
Anyone know what`s become of it?
Thanks,R Kennedy
I'm not sure which one you'd have seen in the 60's, but Amtrak operated a "Turbo Train" for a while, and then scrapped it when it got too expensive. I can't remeber now who built it. I know Amtrak still operates the later Rohr-built (I think that they built 1/2 of the DC Metro cars, Breda the other 1/2) trains on thier upstate lines.
There were other Turbo Train type trainsets, but none of them lasted very long in operation.
Jon Hart
The Turbo Train that Amtrak operated was built by United Aircraft (now United Technologies). It ran between Boston or Hartford and New York and it was fast (I read that it went over 170 mph on a special test run). It had a tendency to catch fire and that was why it met an early death with the scrapper's torch in 1978. Too bad, because it was a very distinct and nice-looking train (except when painted in early "Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer" Amtrak paint scheme). The black and the silver paint schemes were very nice. VIA rail in Canada also operated Turbo Trains between Montreal and Toronto until 1982.
I am an employee of United Technologies and UTC still protects the Turbo Train(R) trademark
>I am an employee of United Technologies and UTC still protects the Turbo Train(R) trademark
Why is the world do they still do that? They got plans for another one? :)
Oh yes, slightly less related, does US Steel (?) still protect the Unisphere (R)? Or have they given up on it? And is it me, or is it the unofficial symbol of Queens?
I love that thing the more I see it. Ever since that GIANT Swingline staplers neon sign was pulled down (the one near harold), I've kinda needed a symbol to know I was finally "home".
The "Rudolph" paint job is the one I remember,so this is probably the same train. I have a picture of it berthed a Grand Central in early 1968. The photo is somewhat murky, taken in existing-dim light.
The time period was 1967-68,there was also a ooo (later known as N gauge)electric toy model produced about this time. We still have it.
Amtrak still maintains one Turbo-Train set in operation on the Empire Corridor. IT is an RTL Model built by Rohr in 1976. All the other turbos are in storage.(RTG and RTL Models). The original United Aircraft Turbos have now been scrapped.
Larry,RedbirdR33
They are Turbo Liners, Not Turbo Trains (R), TM of United Technologies Corporation., all Turbo Trains (R) were scrapped :-<
The turbo-liner that is now running is a rebuilt, prototype, train set. NY-DOT has other turbo-liner train sets that were supposed to also be rebuilt for the NYC/Albany route according to a magazine story that I saw a few years ago. Anyone know the status of the project.
We could use them back here on the "Hiawatha" between Chicago and Milwaukee. They are better than what they have now.
I think that puts too fine a point on it. The gentlemen asked a resonable question about the turbos and didn't give many specifics. My answer covered all three types of turbos, and on the railroad we do refer to them as turbo-trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info,sorry I couldn`t be more detailed in the question, In fact I wasnt aware of any other 'Turbo Trains'.
One detail I do recall ,on the side of the engine there was what looked like (to me at 11yrs anyway)a spec plate I seem to recall it had the General Electric name and symbol. Did they have anything to do with it`s construction. My brother was so taken w/this train he badgered my father to buy the "N" gauge model of it,we still have this and several other models. Anyway I`m sorry tohear of it`s fate,I believe this train may have carried us to Lake George for vacation several times in the early-mid 70`s.
Thanks again for the responses!
GE didn't have anything to do with the turbos, save for UP's heavy fast freight ones. It would have had a ROHR, ANF, or UA builder's plate, and the us DOT liked to put their logo on them too. The electric traction half of the turbos were westinghouse guts I think.
GE *did* build the New Haven EP-5s, which were nicknamed "jets", supposedly in part because of their noise level. The Genesiss IIs also rank high on the noise scale, and so do the E-60s.
Am i correct in assuming that no EP-5s were ever preserved? Which would be a shame since it was argueably the first modern (or more modern?) passenger electric in the US (the E-33 would hold that for frieght)
What became of the LIRR M1's that were hybrid turbine/ electric? I saw them come down the PC in the Bronx in the '70's on a demo(?) run. I presume they were junked too.
Last time I saw the UA turbos, they were in DC's Ivy City nose-to-nose, pods opened. They looked pretty sad. None saved, of course. Like so many units in the past, no matter how good or bad, part of railroad history gone!
I was under the impression Via might have one or 2 in storage still.
A couple of the cars were still extant last I knew, but I believe the power units are all gone.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's how this thread started. I guess it went full circe!!!
Mr Kennedy: If you rode the train to Lake George it would have been a Rohr built RTL Turbo on the "Adirondack." One of these units (there were 7)remains in service today between Grand Central and points in upstate New York, but not on the run to Montreal.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I never did get to see the engine on these trips,I was just told "it`s the turbo train' by my father. Thanks for straightening that out!
One of these units (there were 7)remains in service today between Grand Central and points in upstate New York
Alas, Amtrak doesn't run any trains out of Grand Central. the Turboliner is still in service, but runs from Penn Station like all the other Amtrak trains.
Turboliner sets are (finally) being brought out of storage for rebuilding by Super Steel upstate, as part of a general package of Empire Corridor improvements funded by Amtrak and NYS.
Did I say Grand Central in that post? Its the old New York Central loyalty coming through. Thanks for catching it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I periodically see the RTLs in Penn, though never really doing anything active. I remember when amtrak still ran to GCT dumping my brother off there and seeing one (he lives in albany, so he's been on them). Being inside for a while, I don't remember it being much more attractive than a commuter train, though this was years ago.
I know NY owns one or 2 and they are being rebuilt, but I'm of the impression that even these cars were not very sucessful, though ironically, the RTLs were the best of the bunch, which given Rohr, is pretty amazing :)
I am trying to date some old photographs and the address of the
photographer contains a line saying "just steps away from the El station". As the address is 842 Broadway, Brooklyn, this must be the
Broadway El.... when was the Broadway El built? I know the photos are from before 1890.
Thanks.
Jan
The Broadway el was built at first in the late 1880's. It was completely rebuilt for use with heavier steel cars during the 1915-16 period to the shape that it takes today. I'd love to see that picture if the el is in it.
Your photo address will be located near Myrtle Av. in Brooklyn
11/17/99
That's right,because 911 Broadway seem from the Manhattan bound platform is a few yards or so west of Myrtle Ave. I don't know which direction the numbers get lower or higher.
Bill Newkirk
The numbers on Bway get higher as you go East.
11/18/99
So that means 825 Broadway would be near the Flushing Ave. station.
Bill Newkirk
I would assume 86 numbers would only be about 2 blocks or so, still by the Myrtle Station.
11/18/99
CORRECTION: Jan Eyerman asked about the location of 842 Broadway,I erred by saying 825 Broadway.
Bill Newkirk
CORRECTION: Jan Eyerman asked about the location of 842 Broadway,I erred by saying 825 Broadway.
842 Broadway is at Park Ave., right smack in the middle between Flushing Ave. and Myrtle Ave.
BTW, I used Microsoft MapPoint to look this up.
Before the Broadway-Brooklyn El was rebuilt as part of the Dual Contracts (sometime between 1915 and 1920), there was a station at Park Ave. This would have been "steps away" from 842 Broadway.
-- Ed Sachs
>> Before the Broadway-Brooklyn El was rebuilt as part of the
>> Dual Contracts (sometime between 1915 and 1920), there was
>> a station at Park Ave. This would have been "steps away"
>> from 842 Broadway.
Was this station (at Park Ave.) closed because of the proximity
of existing stations at Flushing & Myrtle Avenues, or were the
stations re-positioned when the structure was rebuilt?
Before the Dual Contracts Rebuild all of the stations on Broadway with the exception of Marcy were center platform stations. These stations included Hewes, Lorimer, Flushing, Park, Kosciusko, Gates, Halsey and Chauncey. All of these stations were rebuilt to side platform with the exception of Park which was eliminated completely. Park may have been eliminated because of low traffic or the close proximity of the Sumner Ave station on the Myrtle Ave line.
The original Myrtle Ave station was a simple center platform station that was rebuilt to two island platforms. I believe that during rebuild this station was repositioned toward Park which may have contributed to Park's elimination.
Marcy Ave was originally a side platform station, and was never rebuilt as the others were, but over the years it has had many, many renovations.
It is interesting to note that Alabama, Cleveland, Norwood and Crescent were, and still are center platform stations. Van Sicklen was originally a side platform station and was rebuilt to a center platform.
The original Cypress Hills was a center platform station and was located on Crescent St before the turn onto Jamaica Ave. In the old days that was the last stop. When the line was extended to Jamaica, the station was rebuilt to a side platform station and was repositioned to be on Jamaica Ave after the turn off of Crescent St.
Marcy Ave was originally a side platform station, and was never rebuilt as the others were, but over the years it has had many, many renovations.
Wasn't Marcy Ave rebuilt because of a fire in either the late 70s or early 80s?
--Mark
Someone else will have to verify that. I have been out of the city since 1957.
I think you're thinking of METROPOLITAN Avenue on the "M" line, whose quaint wooden platform and shed burned in 1976, taking four R27's and one R30 with it.
I don't recall Marcy Avenue being anything other than a much-needed rehab job - it may have been done at the same time that the Jamaica El stations from Alabama to Crescent were done.
Wayne
Could be, but I could swear that the Marcy Ave also had a fire, not nearly as bad as Metrop'n Ave, but causing enough damage to require major reconstruction.
--Mark
I don't recall a serious fire at Marcy Ave. The old station was replaced around 1978. If there was a fire there, it wasn't serious enough to cause the rebuild, like Intervale Ave was back in 89. Marcy Ave was probably rebuilt for the same reasons that the Fulton St. stations were rebuilt: old age, poor condition, vandalism, and the potential for fire with wooden platforms.
It was done at exactly the same time as the Crescent-Alabama rehabs.
Marcy Ave. seems to look older than the rest of the Broadway stations. I wonder if it's one of the original Broadway el stations, left alone after the 1915-16 rebuild.
Marcy Ave. seems to look older than the rest of the Broadway stations. I wonder if it's one of the original Broadway el stations, left alone after the 1915-16 rebuild.
Yes it was.
That may also explain why it's so close to the Hewes St. station (3 blocks).
That may also explain why it's so close to the Hewes St. station (3 blocks).
I don't know why Hewes and Marcy are so close together. As for Marcy, I guess this station didn't need to be redone because it was the only station with side platforms. All the other stations had island platforms. Third-tracking the el didn't affect Marcy Ave., as it did everything else out to Eastern Parway.
Somebody once told me that Broadway express trains used to skip Marcy Ave, switching over to the local tracks west of Marcy,ust before curving on to the viaduct leading to the WillyB. Is this true? If so, why was Marcy Ave made an express stop?
Yes it certainly is true. I remember express service skipping March Ave. (including Saturday a.m. Broadway express trains to Manhattan)from the early 1950s. I always thought the express-to-local switch was moved from east of Marcy Ave. to west of the station to serve the Bridge Plaza bus terminal (formerly trolley car terminal), but that's all speculation on my part. Any definitive information out there?
Yes it certainly is true. I remember express service skipping March Ave. (including Saturday a.m. Broadway express trains to Manhattan)from the early 1950s.
It wasn't just in the early '50s. J and M trains in the '70s also skipped Marcy Ave. during rush hours. In evening rush, the next stop after Essex St. was Broadway/Myrtle. The KK (later K) made all local stops.
My recollection is that, while some trains skipped Marcy Ave., the switchover was always east of Marcy Ave. The express trains which skipped Marcy Ave. simply passed the platforms without stopping (much as the J/Z trains skip Bowery station today).
-- Ed Sachs
My recollection is that, while some trains skipped Marcy Ave., the switchover was always east of Marcy Ave. The express trains which skipped Marcy Ave. simply passed the platforms without stopping (much as the J/Z trains skip Bowery station today).
My recollection isn't that good. I can only remember passing Marcy on the J and M. However, I just checked an old track map that I have (I obtained it in the'70s and it does have Chrystie St. on it, so it can't be older than 1967) and can verify that you are correct. The switches from both local tracks to the express track are located just east of the Marcy Ave. station. Good observation! BTW, the only thing that the express track at the Marcy Ave. station is good for is a layup. It has a stub-end at its western end. There is also a track map on this site that shows no change from my large paper track map. Track Map
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the original turnouts at Marcy Ave were west of the station, not east! The old Jamaica train from 168th St to Broad St would run express to NY in the morning between Eastern Parkway and Essex St, stopping only at Myrtle Ave. This was operated in reverse during evening rush hour. The Jamaica train ran as a local, making all stops during non rush hours. The express could not stop at Marcy because the turnouts from the express to the local track were west of Marcy Ave, just before the bridge approach.
I rode this train a lot in the 1940's and 1950's and that is the way it was. The turnouts were moved from west of to east of Marcy Ave in Feb,1960.
You can take my word for this or you can refer to "The Bulletin" published by the New York Division of ERA. Page 3 of the Aug 1997 issue has track diagrams that pretty much explain the history of the switches at Marcy Ave. I believe that the turnouts were west of Marcy Ave from the time that the line was three-tracked in 1915 until 1960. What you see now as a stub end with a bumper block used to be part of the original express track.
Karl...You are correct about the original Marcy Ave. bumper track. It was west of the station. I recall riding the Broadway el back in the late '50s and seeing the track configuration. For visual proof, try to get ahold of a tape of various NYC subway and el transit scenes from Gerry Landau's collection (volume 1). It clearly shows R-16s and Multis coming off the Wills.Bridge and taking the middle track west of the station.
Carl M.
I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the original turnouts at Marcy Ave were west of the station, not east! The old Jamaica train from 168th St to Broad St would run express to NY in the morning between Eastern Parkway and Essex St, stopping only at Myrtle Ave. This was operated in reverse during evening rush hour. The Jamaica train ran as a local, making all stops during non rush hours. The express could not stop at Marcy because the turnouts from the express to the local track were west of Marcy Ave, just before the bridge approach.
I rode this train a lot in the 1940's and 1950's and that is the way it was. The turnouts were moved from west of to east of Marcy Ave in Feb,1960.
You can take my word for this or you can refer to "The Bulletin" published by the New York Division of ERA. Page 3 of the Aug 1997 issue has track diagrams that pretty much explain the history of the switches at Marcy Ave. I believe that the turnouts were west of Marcy Ave from the time that the line was three-tracked in 1915 until 1960. What you see now as a stub end with a bumper block used to be part of the original express track.
I'm not disputing your information. I just gave my account of how things ran in the 1970's; and I have a track map that I obtained at an ERA meeting back in the '70s that shows the tracks as they are today. I never said anything about Marcy Ave. in the '40s or '50s. I was born in the '50s. My first ride through Marcy Ave. was in the early '60s. I mentioned the J and M. There were no such designations for trains back in the '40s and '50s. Besides, I also indicated that my track map shows the Chrystie St. connection, and therefore cannot be older than 1967. The information that I posted was accurate.
Everybody just called it the Jamaica train. I don't think many people even knew that it was the #15 until the R-16's came on the scene and displayed #15. I guess the lettering system made short work of the numbers on the BMT.
We used to call it the "Jamaica train" or the "green/green" (from the marker lights).
Or the Broadway-Brooklyn Train
You remember the marker lights!
I can't recall but I think that the colors for the train to Metropolitan Ave were green/red, Weren't they?
MYRTLE-CHAMBERS WERE RED-GREEN
BRIGHTON LOCAL TO MANHATTEN W-W CONEY ISLAND R-R EXP R-G 4TH AVE G-G WEST END G-W SEA BEACH R-W CULVER G-O FRANKLIN G-G These are from 1957-58. Brighton Local on Nights and Sundays was G-R
Number markings on the Eastern Division persisted right up until they were officially dropped when the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967, long after letter markings had become firmly entrenched on the Southern Division. Prior to that, the R-16s were the only cars operating on the Eastern Division which were equipped to show route markings after the multis were retired, and they kept their original roller curtains with number markings until they were reassigned.
I still remember riding on a #15 train in September of 1967.
Those funky multi-colored route signs were installed in the R16's in 1969. They didn't have signs for the short-lived RJ, NX, and MJ routes. However, they did have TT signs for the West End shuttle.
I played with them endlessly when they were on the M line in 1986. Once, I changed the bottom destination signs from Bay Parkway to Ninth Ave on an entire train. Unlike other kids on the subway, I liked to make sure those signs were correct.
I remember those curtains as well. AFAIK, the R-16s were the only cars to have multicolored side route curtains installed. It made sense in a way, since they needed new curtains anyway with all number markings having been dropped. The multicolored bulkhead route curtains which were installed in the destination slot were also used on the R-32s and R-38s and, apparently, on a few R-27s. While the latter cars eventually returned to the original front end route and destination arrangement (which I always preferred and still do), the R-16s kept those multicolored curtains until they were retired. It looked a bit odd to see a J train pull into, say, Fulton St. in 1985-86 with an orange JJ sign being displayed.
I fiddled with a roll sign once, on a BMT standard. I don't remember what it said, but it wasn't "14th St. L'c'l". I started cranking away while my mother was throwing a fit ("What if the conductor sees you?"), and stopped when "Local" appeared.
I had a bizarre expreience involving those curtains on another car in 1986:
I was on one of my usual school ditching excursions, and I decided that I was going to ride the K train (old AA). When I got to 168th St, I got on what appeared to be an R32 K train. But this train looked weird to me. For one thing, it had all the funky colored curtains I had only seen on the R16. Also, besides looking like an R32 on the outside, it was definatly an R38 interior, with it's backlit light (which made these cars too damn dark!). Another shocking thing was that these cars didn't have fans, but air conditioning units (unheard of on either the R32 or 38 in early 1986). All of the side signs were set to the blue KK Sixth Ave local signs. It was only after I discovered this website that I finally realized that these were probably those R32 GE cars, pre GOH.
R-38s 4140-4149 were built with air conditioning, in 1967. None of the R-32 cars had air conditioning prior to GOH.
David
[Another shocking thing was that these cars didn't have fans, but air conditioning units (unheard of on either the R32 or 38 in early 1986). All of the side signs were set to the blue KK Sixth Ave local signs. It was only after I discovered this website that I finally realized that these were probably those R32 GE cars, pre GOH.]
These were clearly the R32GE units, and they did indeed have AC units.
Maybe I'm mis-understanding you, but you seem to be saying that the cars you rode were pre-GOH R-32GE cars and that they were air conditioned. Since the R-32GE cars were not equipped with air conditioning prior to GOH, that statement is inaccurate. As I previously stated, you were probably on one of the ten R-38 cars that were delivered with air conditioning in 1967 (4140-4149).
David
[These were clearly the R32GE units, and they did indeed have AC units.]
Weren't the R-32GEs the first 10 GOHs in the R-32 series? In that case, they may have been back on the line in 1986 with AC before the others had gone away for their overhauls.
Also, by 1986 the AC on R-38s 4140-4149 was pretty much DOA, even though the equipment was still in place.
No, these cars were not overhauled as yet. But they did have air conditioning units. It's been stated that R32GE had no AC prior to overhaul. The only thing that I can say was that the train I was on had both R32GE trains, plus AC equipped cars. Perhaps the R38's and R32's were in the same train I was on.
Maybe I'm mis-understanding you, but you seem to be saying that the cars you rode were pre-GOH R-32GE cars and that they were air conditioned. Since the R-32GE cars were not equipped with air conditioning prior to GOH, that statement is inaccurate. As I previously stated, you were probably on one of the ten R-38 cars that were delivered with air conditioning in 1967 (4140-4149).
You are right on target. No, and I mean absolutely NO R-32's were delivered with any air conditioning. The first air conditioned cars on the B-Division (I am excluding the experimental ones on the A-Division) were the ten experimental R-38's, and it was only ten cars, mind you. Even some of the slant 40's came in without air. The first sizeable order of air conditioned cars were the rest of the slant 40's. Two different R-32 styles were built. The earlier ones had the bright flourescent lights without back-lit advertisements. The later ones had dimmer flourescent lighting with back-lit opaque advertisements. Even the fans were different. The fans on the older R-32's resembled those on the R-27/30's, whereas the fans on the newer R-32's resembled the fans on the R-38's and the slant R-40's without air conditioning. I believe the R-32's were classed as R-32's and R-32A's, if I'm not mistaken, even though we have a tendancy to lump them all together as R-32's. They all looked the same on the outside from delivery. You could probably be able to tell which were which by how bright or dim the interior lights were when one came into the station. Befor the overhaul, I always preferred the brighter older ones. I think the newer ones were delivered in 1966, whereas the older ones were delivered in late 1964 through 1965. Ah yes! The modern, sleek Brightliners. The "silver trains", as I referred to them as a kid.
The R-32's were split into two groups but it had nothing to do with the interior fittings,simply an accounting strategem by the city.
The R-32A's came first #3350 to 3649,next the R-32's #3650-3949. The first 450 cars were identical #3350-3799. The last 150 #3800-3949 had back lite advertisements and baffle type fans which look somewhat like covers on the present day ac units.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't ever remember seeing those multicolored side route curtains on any other cars except the R-16s, but it's entirely possible they could have been used on some R-32s and R-38s. I hardly ever saw the R-38s in their early years, and then only during rush hours on the E.
They were definatley on at least few R38's, as it was pointed out to me that the cars in question (with AC in 1986) had to be R38's. As for R32's, there are several pictures within this website showing that many R32's had those signs at least up front.
As for R32's, there are several pictures within this website showing that many R32's had those signs at least up front
All the 32's and 38's eventually had the color-coded signs on the front.
Yes, virtually all of the R-32s received multicolored route curtains up front. They were installed in the destination slot, which I thought was a bad idea because it sacrificed the destination sign. Initially, the original front route curtains were left in place when the new multicolored curtains were installed, then were eventually removed.
During the late 70s, I occasionally saw a train of R-32s with the original route and destination curtains still in place. All along, I had a gut feeling that front destination signs would eventually find their way back to the R-32s, and sure enough, they did.
I do remember the few times in the late 50s that once the Jamaica express left the bridge and turned onto Broadway, it switched to the Express Track before passing any station. I do not know whatb it does now, but back then, it switched just before(after) the bridge
I guess that my recollections must be post-1960.
-- Ed Sachs
Also remember there were 2 more stations west of Marcy Ave. at Driggs and Broadway Ferry which was the original Bway El terminus prior to construction of the Williamsburg Bridge. The spur, I believe survived to the 1940's though not in revenue service. The last time I was in NY I think there was some surviving ironwork from the junction and at one time there was a tower builing at the junction which survived at least to the 1960's.
And the replacement of the Broadway Ferry el, the free transfer to the B24 bus at Marcy Ave., lasted until 1989, and it was even shown as a free transfer on the subway map!
Also remember there were 2 more stations west of Marcy Ave. at Driggs and Broadway Ferry which was the original Bway El terminus prior to construction of the Williamsburg Bridge. The spur, I believe survived to the 1940's though not in revenue service. The last time I was in NY I think there was some surviving ironwork from the junction and at one time there was a tower builing at the junction which survived at least to the 1960's.
That's right. Before the bridges were built, everything went to ferry terminals. There was Broadway Ferry, Fulton Ferry, and 36th St. Ferry.
...and 65th St Ferry... (which is back BTW - anyone have anything to say on this?)
...and 65th St Ferry... (which is back BTW - anyone have anything to say on this?)
I forgot about 65th St. Ferry. Thank you.
65th Street Ferry, where did it go to? I remember the 69th St Electric Ferry to SI
65th Street Ferry, where did it go to? I remember the 69th St Electric Ferry to SI
Also remember there were 2 more stations west of Marcy Ave. at Driggs and Broadway Ferry which was the original Bway El terminus prior to construction of the Williamsburg Bridge. The spur, I believe survived to the 1940's though not in revenue service. The last time I was in NY I think there was some surviving ironwork from the junction and at one time there was a tower builing at the junction which survived at least to the 1960's.
And the replacement of the Broadway Ferry el, the free transfer to the B24 bus at Marcy Ave., lasted until 1989, and it was even shown as a free transfer on the subway map!
Also remember there were 2 more stations west of Marcy Ave. at Driggs and Broadway Ferry which was the original Bway El terminus prior to construction of the Williamsburg Bridge. The spur, I believe survived to the 1940's though not in revenue service. The last time I was in NY I think there was some surviving ironwork from the junction and at one time there was a tower builing at the junction which survived at least to the 1960's.
That's right. Before the bridges were built, everything went to ferry terminals. There was Broadway Ferry, Fulton Ferry, and 36th St. Ferry.
...and 65th St Ferry... (which is back BTW - anyone have anything to say on this?)
...and 65th St Ferry... (which is back BTW - anyone have anything to say on this?)
I forgot about 65th St. Ferry. Thank you.
65th Street Ferry, where did it go to? I remember the 69th St Electric Ferry to SI
65th Street Ferry, where did it go to? I remember the 69th St Electric Ferry to SI
How was Myrtle rebuilt? Did they use one of the old tracks as a center tracks and move the local track out and build a new platform?
The Myrtle Ave Station rebuild took place in 1915, and even though I am pretty old, that was still before my time. I don't remember ever reading a thorough write-up of the rebuilding progress, it was obviously quite an undertaking.
From time to time I have seen pictures of the work in progress and you know a picture is worth a thousand words anyway. If you have access to the Greller-Watson book "Brooklyn Elevated", I would refer you to page 93, which has several very good pictures of the reconstruction.
I had the opportunity to talk on the phone with Ed Watson, one of the authors, on several occasions almost fifty years ago. He was the ultimate transit fan, what he didn't know about NY transit wasn't worth knowing. What's funny about the whole thing was that his main interest was trolleys, and not subways and els.
Hey Mr. BMT: I like your BMT insignia at the end of your messages, but to you have to have a "B" type train for a picture? Compared to the "D" type triplexes, those B's are ugly man. Of course, that's just my prejuduced opinion but that train reminds me of the Broadway-4th Avenue local of my childhood. It stopped at every station, never left the tunnel once in entered afte Queens Plaza, and it took an eternity to get anywhere. It was always with relief that we would tool into the Times Square Station where we could catch onto my favorite train that led over a picturesque bridge and a bunch of mini-tunnels on our way to Coney Island. If you could, lose that "B" train. Chao.
The Triplexes were my favorite BMT car.
But the Standards were prettier.
The Triplexes were my favorite BMT car.
But the Standards were prettier.
I like both, but I favor the Standards. Usually when I think of BMT, I instantly think of the Standards.
I hate to admit it but I really don't remember the triplexes. As a very young kid in the late 50's, early 60's my grandmother lived off the Sea Beach (20th Av sta) and my aunt the Brighton. (Kings Hway) Although both lines had triplexes according to the experts on this forum I definitely remember the standards. I remember the conductor at the middle door and I also remember that every door had a separation between the double door leafs, things only the standard had. I also remember the green interior and the different size seats. However since I was a toddler I probably wouldn't have recognized the difference if I got on a triplex. Both had the window on the motorman's cab and both had four boxy windows on each door. I also could have mistaken them for IND cars.(R1-R9) I do, however, vaugely remember them being laid up on the overpass of the Belt Pkway on the Brighton when my father drove us on the Belt. An interesting aside was years later as a teen I thought the Standards were long gone. I had never ridden the LL. Then one day I was on the "J" pulling into Bway Junction and noticed a train of standards on the Canarsie line. I quickly got off, ran to the "LL" and relived my childhood. Maybe thats why sometimes I subconsciencely expect to find a discontinued car from my past as an R1-9 or an old LIRR MU with half the car a mail or baggage car!!
Jeff: One of the fascinating things about the Triplexes was to ride them standing in the drum over the articulated sections. It was quite an unusual experience.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One small observation: each door leaf on the BMT standards had two windows. With the doors closed, you saw four windows. The Triplexes had single leaf doors with four windows on each leaf.
I remember the standards on the Canarsie during their final years. As often as I rode on them, I never saw the conductor at a button console, although I vivdly remember the consoles themselves. The only conclusion I can come up with is that by sheer luck or coincidence, I never happened to be in the second or fifth cars where the conductor was.
As I've said before, I didn't care for the BMT standards when they were still around. One, I thought they were unattractive, even ugly. OK, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Two, they didn't have signs up front, something I had gotten used to seeing on the IND and newer cars on the Southern Division. Three, they only had three sets of doors per side instead of the four sets I was used to seeing on the IND and Southern Division. Ironically, the fact that IRT cars had three sets of doors per side didn't bother me.
Unfortunately, I never had a chance to experience the Triplexes. Had we taken the BMT during rush hour back in July of 1965 while in the city on vacation, I might have spotted a West End Express train of Triplexes. As it was, all we rode on were R-27s, R-30s, and shiny new R-32s. We left for home on the very same day the Triplexes ran for the last time - July 23.
Like I said many times before guys and girls: The ABs and D-types go together like peanut butter and jelly. Nice by themselves, but better together, you can't have one without the other, unless you're from the Eastern division.
Mike H
anyone know how the camera systems work on Philly's new MF cars. The operator's monitor flickers off shortly after leaving each station and comes back to life arriving at the next station. The cameras are clearly stationary, I presume mounted above the station platforms. Are they using radio signals?
That is correct. Actually you can say they are wireless signals.
My friend in Philly told me that the M4 cabs have wireless monitors. When a train arrives at one station, the monitor will receive the signals from the cameras.
Chaohwa
Yep. There are 3 cameras along each platform. They are wired into a box mounted on the wall/post opposite the platform. That box switches between the three cameras every second or so. It then sends that signal to two car-length antennas, one at each end of the platform. The antennas are clearly visible, mounted in raised pipes between the rails.
When a train pulls into the station, an antenna mounted underneath the front car should be right above one of the station antennas. It picks up that signal and displays it on the monitor in the cab.
There is also a pair or M-4s with internal surveilance/security cameras. I don't know if these are operational. If they are, I don't know if they are hooked up to the same monitor in the cab, or a new one. I imagine it's some sort of test/pilot thing. If anyone has the scoop with these, I'd be curious to know what's going on. There is at least one similarly rigged trainset on the BSS.
On the NY Railfan Forum at www.railroad.net a poster last week stated he saw a bunch of old diesel LIRR coaches at the Aqueduct Station. I replied to him that it is almost physically impossible because the only way they could get there would be an extremely round about way through NYC Transit pulled by a diesel from the Bay Ridge Branch and that there have been no LIRR cars at Aqueduct since the IND took it over in the mid 50's!! I told him it must have been the Belmont LIRR station that he saw. Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if they're storing old diesel cars on the Belmont Racetrack spur??
There are 8 old coaches at Hillside. A few weeks ago there were 17 including 6 parlor cars. I have not seen any stored at or near Belmont.
Well it's finally going to open!
The extension to the Jubilee Line in London is scheduled to open
with the start of service (first train Saturday 20th November).
This will link the existing Stanmore-Green Park section with
the new Westminster-Stratford section.
As a result the present terminus at Charing Cross will close and will not be served by Jubillee line trains from the last train at close of service Friday Night(actually very early Sat am).
Charing Cross also served by Northern and Bakerloo Lines these both not being affected.
Fingers Crossed!
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Rob,
Do you know whether all of the stations will be open?
Max
What type of signalling is used-SELTRAC or a tradition type?
Seltrac signalling not yet comisioned so conventional signals and block sections installed.
Regards
Rob :^)
Since there is a need for 11-car operation on the seven line, is it possible that 40 R-62A singles be transferred from Lenox to Corona to run with the Pelham fleet??
-Mark Holmes
Forty? I thought it might have to be more than that. How many R62As are on the #6 now (including the ones used on the #5 which came from Pelham)?
Does any body have any idea when these cars will come to the 7 line? Now that the Pelhams R62As are supposedly to come here, What happens to Dyres OPTO? Hmmmmm. Now thats something to think about.
Lets see. The 7 operates approx. 360-370 redbirds. Pelham operates 1651 to 1915 (265 cars) and Lenox has 1916-2140(?). So if the 265 cars gp to Corona, then about 100 or so Lenox cars would have to go to Corona. Some of the Lenox fleet would have to be placed into 5-car units while the others stay as singles for 11-car operation.
The R142 will be used on 5-OPTO trips.
I doubt any but the absolute necessary number of R62A's from the 3 line will be transfered to the 7. Probably no more than 35-40. The rest of the R62A's will come from another line, my bet being the 1/9. You might see some redbirds on the 1 for the first time in over a decade. The 3 has to remain all R62, and every one of its trains needs at least 4 singles for 9 car trains. The redbirds, being married pairs, cant operate as 9 car trains. And there is no way they put the R33S on the 3. Those cars are gone.
Here is my idea:
The 7 gets the BEST redbirds in the fleet, and the R33S.
For every lost set of redbirds, the line that they were taken away from gets an R142 train.
Then, the redbirds are moved to a certain line, (the 2, 5, or 6) and the R42s from there run on the line without them.
What is the number of R142s compared to redbirds???
The R142 can only run on the 2 and 5, because the E180 street shops are the only ones equipped to handle them.
I keep hearing that The East is the only shop equipped to handle the R-142s. What had to be done to that venerable structure to allow it to service these new trainsets?
It was completely rebuilt. It's standard operating procedure to equip certain yards to maintain/repair only certain types of cars. The Jamaica yard is only equipped to handle the R46 and the R32, which is why you only see these cars on the Queens IND. The Pitkin Ave. yard is equipped to handle R44's, R38's and R32's.
The main yard for the 3 is Livonia Yard. Lenox Yard is just a storage area..........
3TM
Pelham R62A currently ends with #1900. #1901 thru #1920 have been returned to the #3 (with the exception of #1909, with some of these operating on the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle.
Redbirds on the #6 are R29 #8570 thru #8693, R36WF #9478 thru #9521 and all 34 of the R36ML.
Subtract the 78 Pelham R36 from the full 464-car R33WF/R36WF order and subtract three more (#9306,#9349,#9410) and that leaves you with 383 Redbirds on the #7.
Wayne
Thanks a lot for the numbers, Wayne.
The transit pro, who was once known as Mr. R-46 hereby notifies you, R46JamYd, that the name Mr. R-46© is mine and mine alone! Cease and desist any postings using the name, or I will institute legal procedings.
Yeah. I suggest a name change to Mr-R16. Absolutley nobody will complain about stealing that handle.
Actually I could claim right to that name as well, I own one. 6398
Cool. But how do you find parking for that thing?
LOL
Got it's own museum. Most subway cars go to scrap, the lucky ones live out their retirement at a mueum.
And *I* claim copyright in "suit covered anuses" (what LIRR riders refuse to drag five feet across the platform at Jamaica and therefore choose to jam themselves in disgustingly overcrowded Ronkonkoma trains rather than take nice uncrowded trains on the Montauk or Port Jefferson lines) and in "skell" when used as a verb (e.g. I saw the police skell an E train at WTC; a usage derived from the same concepts as weeding a lawn or worming a dog).
I'd be in big trouble with the Mob posting under my name as they think I am buried in a NJ sports facility. I have come back from the dead and went to hell today, located not at Satan's residence alongside the Grim Reaper in the fires of down below, but at his workplace located at 370 Jay Street where he is on the 13 Floor. Mike Quill woke up from his long sleep and punched me in my nose for my lack of retaliation over TA management over the last decade. I promised him that we will take back what is left of our decrepit union and make management accountable for their actions. I hereby pledge to all union members that I will do all I can to make the TA management sweat and fear the loss of their jobs. I will continue banging on the doors of my assembly persons and OSHA and PESH. The NLRB and the EIEIO will also hear from me as I proudly proclaim the NYCTA, to whom they have the credit of causing their third strike, the 1966, 1980 and now the 2000, as "Three Strikes, Your OUT!" I complained to your assemblyman Guy Velella about 500 million dollars spent on Metrocard's development. He did nothing. I complained of the R-110 sitting idle in a yard. The TA scrapped three cars of taxpayer money. Still you don't care. Now you will care when your train is a day or two late as I stand on a picket line yelling "Three Strikes, your out."
Since Staten Island is part of New York City, and is now growing rapidly because of people wanting to own their own home and have some breathing room, has there been any move afoot to extend the New York Subway system across the bay to Staten Island. I hear so much about the 2nd Ave. Subway, and the 63rd St. tunnel that it almost escaped me that the 5th Borough is not part of the system. Is an underground tube or train across the Verrazano Narrows Bridge a possibility. It would certainly bring the island closer to the other four, or do Staten Islanders like being separate?
I think they want to remain separate. There is growing movement there to suceed from the rest of New York City. (Queens has such a movement also, although neither will ever happen)
That movement was squashed by the "home rule" law. But remember Staten Islanders didn't want the Bridge in the first place. Staten Island has changed 1000% since I grew up there.
The thing about Staten Island is they don't want enough housing density to support a subway. They want the whole place downzoned, and are gradually getting their way.
SICC is hosting this symposium "Staten Island, the New Hot Borough." Seems like a crazy idea since Staten Islanders don't want anyone else to move it. I guess they're upset that more people don't feel bad about being kept out.
Actually, what we really want is to have essential city services keep up with the current growth in population. There are still a large number of houses not connected to city sewers, transit service patterns have been essentially unchanged since the late '60s, and when the two proposed new schools are completed, the Island will still have nowhere near enough seats for school-aged children. Keeping those in mind, what would make us want even more people?
(What we want is essential city services to keep up with population growth)
Clearly you don't have to deal with the people DCP does. When a very reasonable road and street improvement program was proposed by the borough president, the result was a cry of NIMBY! On SI, they even fight schools and parks.
The street system of SI is inadequate, but unless the LOCAL forces of NIMBY can be overcome, it can never be improved. At the start of the Rudy Administration, there were a bunch of meetings on what could be done for SI. That's all been given up. You can take things away (the dump) or stop things (the downzoning) but you can't do things. In any event, the streets and schools are still in better shape, and less crowded, than those of Brooklyn.
Population growth will probably slow. I expect the Island to top out at much less than 500,000 (in a borough the size of Brooklyn), then start to lose people as the housing ages. The population of the north shore is already dropping.
The Hylan Blvd. corridor is an example of what you state. The NYCDOT has been 'studying' that damn street since at least 1990. One study for a bus-only lane from Midland Ave. to Tysens La. Another study for the lane markings, etc, etc. With all this 'studying' the NYCDOT has yet to fully computerize or even adequately synchronize all the traffic signals nor install left-turn arrows at many dangerous intersections like Tysens Lane. So now Amboy Rd. and Richmond Rd. are packed. Even North & South Railroad Avenues are being used as alternatives to Hylan Blvd. and Richmond Rd.
(Studying Hylan Blvd for years)
As long as politicians get their name in the newspapers giving credit for transportation studies, we won't get any actual improvements. Studies are cheaper, and thus provide a greater political profit.
My solution? For the buses, as I've said, make the SIRT a busway, assuming there is enough room at the "stations" for local buses to pull to the side and allow the express buses to ride through.
For everything else -- you've got to run Capadino Blvd, through Miller Field, into Great Kills Park, and up to the southern part of Hylan.
And on the southern part of Hylan, you've got to stop new developments from having access from the Blvd. There was a zoning law that said that, but the developers got it changed (barf). In the sunbelt, where they know how to plan this sort of development, back yards with high fences back up onto the arterials, and access to those houses is from side streets only. You lose a little land, but you get a boulevard that works.
We cut one deal at a time here in NYC.
Studies are cheaper. As you well know, the Capadanno extension would require US Interior department approval. To the 'environmentalists' way of thinking it makes more sense for traffic to pack Hylan Blvd within 40 feet of many homes than to build a road through their precious 'parkland' (weeds) along the ocean.
They've been trying to push Father Cap through Miller Field for years. They want to connect it directly to New Dorp Lane, a good idea, but the Dept of the Interior (an oxymoron, since they're in charge of the great, outdoor, national parks!) refuses to allow the square mile or so of land it will require to be used.
-Hank
[They've been trying to push Father Cap through Miller Field for years. They want to connect it directly to New Dorp Lane, a good idea, but the Dept of the Interior (an oxymoron, since they're in charge of the great, outdoor, national parks!) refuses to allow the square mile or so of land it will require to be used.]
It's been a while since I've been down that way, but ISTR that the eastern part of Miller Field, where the new road would run, is pretty much undeveloped (as opposed to the western part with all its athletic fields). It's not as if heavily used parkland would be lost. Are there even any plans to develop the rest of Miller Field?
In addition to opposition from the usual NIMBY zealots, a Cappodino through Miller extension would run into federal politics, since it is part of the Gateway National Recreation Area.
Northeastern liberals are generally hot to "protect" federal land out west. They oppose new roads to bring more traffic into national parks and forests. In exchange, western Senators have indicated that there is no way they'll allow New York City to build a road through Miller Field, precisely because it is a good idea. The SI Rep Fosella seems to have a brain, so maybe he could work around it.
All in all, the idea of turning all that land over the federal government in the hopes that they'd pour money in and spiff it up has turned out to be a disaster. They're using GNRA profits to subsidize facilities in other states.
I think I see a pattern here. Any time NYC turns anything over to anybody it turns out to be a disaster. The schools and the subways. JFK airport and the World Trade Center . . .
(When NYC turns anything over to anyone its a disaster).
Just be glad Hevesi stopped Giuliani from "selling" the resevoirs to the water board, which is partially controlled by the state, as a way of floating off the books general debt backed by water bills. Bad enough that Cuomo loaded debt on the Thruway Authority and Pataki did it to the MTA.
[Just be glad Hevesi stopped Giuliani from "selling" the resevoirs to the water board, which is partially controlled by the state, as a way of floating off the books general debt backed by water bills. Bad enough that Cuomo loaded debt on the Thruway Authority and Pataki did it to the MTA.]
Now that's a truly scary thought!
You wouldn't even have to acquire much private property and probably would not even displace one person. You would still have access to the beaches, better access in fact. It could be a model type of parkway, but this one is a long shot for now.
I'm well aware of the NIMBYs out here. Some years back, I went too the first Public Meeting about how to fix the SI Expressway and took my three year-old daughter. Even she was able to decide that these people were "really silly." Fortunately, every now and then, someone sneaks a project through, much like the addition to her school. It started as modulars and has now become a two-floor addition along with a new furnace.
As for doing things, it seems in general that you can't do anything anywhere in the city without some group tying it up in knots. Its hardly a SI problem alone.
SI is the birthplace of NIMBYism. I remeber several years ago they wanted to take a narrow, twisting street which was subject to numerous deadly head-on collisions, and widen it for safety. The road would remain 2-lanes, but would have a wide shoulder, guardrails, and a Jersey barrier between the lanes. It took about 2 years of fighting environmentalists and people who said that making the street safe would bring more traffic before the road was fixed. People put trees, rabid raccoons, and property values before human life.
-Hank
What about the move for NYC to become a seperate City State. Has that been talked about lately? Demo City Rep Gov and Legislature. Were always the reasons
In 1861, Mayor Fernando Wood proposed the city secede from the Union. This was on the PBS documentary
This is Grant-Conduit Avenues
The next stop on this C train will be Cross-Bay Boulevard, change there for the A.
True story. Many New Yorkers didn't support the Civil War because it shut down the city's most lucrative business: it's port.
New York has a history of harboring treasonous attitudes. Most of this city was strongly Loyalist during the Revolution, and many of the Tammany Hall Democrats during the Civil War were Copperheads (a slang term for Northerners who supported an end to the war and a negotiated peace with a seperate Confederacy).
It's hard to say Tories during the Revolution were exactly traitors, since, y'know, we were the ones committing treason to the Crown. But your point's accurate: since the first casualty of war tends to be commerce, NYC has a pretty sordid history of collaborating with the bad guys rather than risking interruption of trade. At the time of the Civil War New York was the entrepot for one of the busiest trade relationships in the world--the movement of cotton from the South over the Atlantic to the mills of Britain, and its return as finished cloth to be distibuted across the U.S. New York merchants were terrified of losing that double market, and the South certainly hoped that Britain would enter the war on their side to maintain the cotton supply, break the embargo and start shipping directly from the Southern ports.
There were plenty of Union supporters in the city too, of course, so the war became an issue for local politics; and eventually everybody got riled up enough about it to touch off the Draft Riot, the worst disaster in the City's history.
Nothing is impossible with today's engineering technology. But there is virtually no support on Staten Island or the other boroughs for such a project. Tunneling from Manhattan would cost at least $5 Billion, tunneling from Brooklyn at least $2 Billion. The Verrazano was not built with any provision for heavy rail service and might not be able to handle such a load that it was never designed to carry.
[The Verrazano was not built with any provision for heavy rail service and might not be able to handle such a load that it was never designed to carry.]
Grades might be a bigger problem than weight capacity. Immensely long ramps would be needed to keep the grades gentle enough for trains. One estimate said that the ramp on the Brooklyn side would have to be over a mile long.
All you said is true. Also the fact has to be considered that Staten Island has a much lower population than the rest of the boro's, and the number of people who use it will not justify the cost. On the other hand, a great many will benefit from a Second Ave. line or expanded Queens service. One reason why the Verazano is so crowded is the number of people who commute in from New Jersey. None of them are going to park in Staten Island to take a subway.
(Park in Staten Island to ride a subway)
The real backup is on the Gowanus and on into Manhattan. If the Manhattan Bridge situation was truly fixed, the Sea Beach became a really fast express, and the "Brooklyn Junction" shopping center were built over the tracks (it appears to be dead), then I'd be SI residents would park n' ride from there. Two dollars per day to park. Parking plus subway would cost less than parking in Downtown Brooklyn or Lower Manhattan. And, it would be faster.
I wonder how much it would cost just to deck over the ROW with parking lots?
I don't think too many S.I.ers would go for the park and ride. You're crossing the bridge just to park someplace and take the subway. Adds an extra change and too much time to the commute. You're better off getting up early and taking the x-bus in. Park and ride might work just for the realtively few Islanders that work in the downtown Brooklyn/MetroTech area.
The round-trip express bus fare (with standard MetroCard discount)is approx $5.45 per day. Driving across (with SI EZP discount), parking, then jumping on the 'N' is approx $5.92 per day plus approx $3.00 per day for gasoline, and let's say $5.00 per day to park equals approx $13.92 per day for the pleasure of being late for work.
A park-n-ride might keep more Brooklynites from driving into Manhattan because the cheaper parking (than in Manhattan) plus the low subway fare would be a draw. Until the parked cars start getting broken into, which will happen real quick.
Whenever I drive home from A.C. through Staten Island, I notice the Huguenot Avenue bridge over the Korean Veterans Parkway is packed with parked cars, many with Jersey plates. Once when I stopped there for a slice of pizza, an SIRT train pulled into Huguenot station. This was about 6:00 p.m. on a weekday. Mobs of people came up the stairs and got into these parked cars, creating a huge traffic jam.
I can only guess that many people from Jersey opt to drive over the Outerbridge and park at Huguenot for the train. It doesn't seem to make much sense to take the SIR and ferry if one works downtown instead of taking NJT from Middlesex and Monmouth counties into Newark and then PATH to WTC, but apparently people do the former.
The X17 and X19, which pass that area, go deeper into Staten Island than any other MTA express route. The bus might attract people from Jersey, as well as people from Pleasant Plains, Richmond Valley and Tottenville who go to Midtown and don't want to bother with the train and ferry.
Again, the added $4.00 toll from Jersey doesn't make parking and taking the train or bus into Manhattan from southwestern Staten Island worthwhile, but all those cars must be parked on Huguenot Avenue for a reason.
Absolutely. It is probably the most closely-engineered bridge (in other words, the bridge with the lowest percentage of excess design capacity) between Albany and Wilmington. In some respects that is a tribute to careful engineering, in some respects a recognition that design was an inexact science even 60 years ago (remember Tacoma Narrows) and the cheapest insurance was to overdesign and overbuild.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
And lest we forget...
This Sunday, November 21, marks the 35th anniversary of the bridge's opening. The (Encyclopedia) Americana Annual of 1965 stated that "during its first week of operation, sightseers caused massive traffic tieups, the very thing the bridge was built to prevent".
This means the bridge is of the same vintage as the R-32s. I've been across it twice, on July 21, 1965 (that red letter date in my life), and July 8, 1967, when we went out to JFK to meet my cousin.
The thing that makes the Verrazano different is that the bridge has more capacity than the roads that feed it. The bridge has 12 lanes, but the Staten Island Expressway and Gowanus have less. The result is backups, but not on the bridge.
Comapre that with the huge network of roads converging on the GW.
The GWB has 14 lanes, and IIRC, nine major highways link up to it. When the lower level opened in 1962, $1 million in signs were put up to direct motorists to where they had to go.
Staten Island doesn't want a subway line. They love to seperate themselves from the rest of New York. They have also heeded the warning of those who live on Roosevelt Island, where crime shot up dramatically after the 63rd. St line opened.
[Staten Island doesn't want a subway line. They love to seperate themselves from the rest of New York. They have also heeded the warning of those who live on Roosevelt Island, where crime shot up dramatically after the 63rd. St line opened.]
LOOT rail rears its ugly head again. This is the first time I've heard that there was a big crime increase on Roosevelt Island. Assuming that there was such an increase, it may be an unwarranted assumption to attribute it to the subway. First of all, IIRC the 63rd Street line opened around 1990 or 1991. That, of course, was when citywide crime rates were going through the roof. It's entirely possible that Roosevelt Island was just following general trends. Another possibility is that various demographic changes on the island contributed to the increased crime rate. For example (I don't know if this was the case), the opening of low-income housing could not surprisingly be accompanied by a big uptick in crime.
Without further consideration, it's not reasonable to blame the increased crime rate on the subway.
"LOOT rail rears its ugly head again."
LOOT rail! Slowly he turns. Step by step, inch by inch... (^:
It's been a few years since I've been over at alt.planning.urban (or anywhere else on Usenet) and I thought I had finally purged my memory of the awful recollection of that windbag jackass Big Don. Thanks for reminding me. (^;
[They have also heeded the warning of those who live on Roosevelt Island, where crime shot up dramatically after the 63rd. St line opened. ]
If it were true that subways cause crime then the whole city would be a disaster area from Brooklyn Heights to Riverdale.
I'm not going to touch that remark!!!!!
The only way a Staten Island line could be built is to piggy-back a tunnel onto the proposed cross-harbor freight tunnel being touted to revive the Brooklyn port area as a deepwater harbor.
The freight line could use the old B&O bridge across the Arthur Kill to get into S.I, then run along the shoreline past St. George to where the tunnel would be built. That would probably be cheaper than a direct New Jersey-to-Brooklyn tunnel, but whether or not people on Staten Island would even want a second level of the tunnel for a subway is questionable.
(SI tunnel)
Whether the SI NIMBYS would stand by and allow heavy freight traffic to travel across the north shore is also questionable. I think the best freight solution is a freight/passenger bridge at Tappan Zee.
And the best SI solution is to convert the SIRT and north shore line to a busway will pull off stations, continue it on two dedicated lanes of the Verrazano and one counterflow lane on the re-built Gowanus, and into the tunnel. Buses could pick SInders up in dispresed locations, get up on the busway, then run local to St. George or express to Manhattan.
If the best solution for Staten Island public transportation is to replace the SIRT with a busway and dedicated lanes on the Verrazano Bridge, then the solution for congestion on the East Side of Manhattan is obvious. Replace the Lexington Avenue subway with a dedicated bus lane northbound and a contra-flow bus lane southbound. The need for a Second Avenue subway goes away.
(Busway for 2nd Avenue).
The density of Manhattan is higher than on Staten Island. More people could walk to a 2nd Avenue subway than to the SIRT. If the SIRT was a busway, local and express buses could branch off from in SI neighborhoods.
Seems to me an ideal application for a low pollution dual mode vehicle--something that can travel along a guideway and turn off to offer feeder service.
While that wouldn't be practical for Second Avenue, I think there are wonderful opportunities on both the East and West Side for a similar service (or just plain train service real cheap, but that's another story). I think we're leaving some extraordinary opportunities and infrastructure untapped.
Josh
This evening, on my way from Grosvenor to Friendship Heights, as the operator returned to his seat at Medical Center after closing the doors, he said "Why the hell is he looking? Why doesn't he sit down?" Are these guys told anything about railfans looking out the front of the train? I don't see how it affects the train operation.
Operators are afraid of passengers and like to hide behind the dark glass. They don't like anyone watching them. He wasn't rude just paranoid.
Transit would be safer and more user freindly if the operator and conductor still had contact with the CUSTOMERS that depend on them for their safety and securtity.
In two years as a Conductor, I had plenty of contact with the CUSTOMERS -they threw things at me, spat in my face (after I reopened the doors and let him on, no less), insulted me, my family and my co-workers. Why shouldn't I be paranoid? I acn't tell if you're one of THEM or one of US. You want me to be really nice to you - tell me you're a railfan. At least that way, I can classify you as RELATIVELY HARMLESS and have one less person to worry about.
I am a fan and work in the Industry. I work in a bus operation where the driver is allways out there. I understand that the trains are a lot more intense and the people feel and act more like cattle but is that right?
If you're asking if my previous statements are true - of course they are. Why would I make it up?
If you're asking if people feel and act more like cattle in the subways, I'd be forced to say yes, especially during rush hours, when most of them are of the feeling "Hurray for me and the Hell with you"
If you're asking if it's right that they should feel that way, my answer is no. The fact that they do comes from two places - management, for not being responsive to the needs of the traveling public, and themselves for not having the brains that God gave to a flea. Everytime I tell some of my horror stories to people who have ridden the subways, they are convinced I'm making it up (see above). The last person I told a good story to was an administrator at The Bronx Zoo. She decided most of these people were related to the two kids who climbed into the polar bear exhibit in Brooklyn (and whom were killed by said bear).
Nice attitude! Not....
I was recently on a visit in Toronto, which of course is great for railfanning because of the 1/2-width cabs and front windows. I was standing at the front watching the signals and everything, and listening to music with a Walkman, when the operator said something to me that I thought was "I've had about enough of you."
I was sort of shocked, but I took my earphones out and said, "I'm sorry, what did you say?"
And he said, "I'm getting off here." He was being relieved by another operator at the next station, and he didn't want me to get hit when he opened the door.
Oops.
I found the operators and other staff in Toronto very friendly.
-- Tim
I miss the whistles though from the conductors. The door closing chimes are not the same.
I found the operators and other staff in Toronto very friendly.
Did you try to take any photographs? This never fails to bring out the rude side in the TTC staff: more than a few local railfans have been harassed by TTC supervisors for taking pictures of busses during the daytime, without a flash, while standing on a public sidewalk.
CH.
I remember as a young man riding a N train to Brooklyn a nasty Caucasion train operator said something to me very nasty and rascist about listening to rap music on his R train.
I sure wish I could run into this rascist and show him my gold badge and make him realize that we all have oportunites to excel in NYC transit!
Now that I am his supervisor!
Were you listening with headphones? If not, then the operator was right to call you on it, although he didn't have to be nasty about it, of course, nor did he need to mention the kind of music you were listening to -- without headphones, classical music would be just as unacceptable.
When I'm in uniform, I try to be friendly but firm about enforcing the rules. The only exception is people who are smoking in a subway station; I usually say, "Smoking in the subway is, naturally, prohibited." "Naturally" because I think it's something that anybody with half a brain should be able to figure out, and no, frankly I *don't* care how things are done in anybody's homeland. Smoking on the subway is inconsiderate no matter where you are, as far as I'm concerned.
-- Tim
When I was a very little child I was riding with my grandmother on a BMT Standard (might have been a triplex, I was too young to know the difference) on the Sea Beach, watching the motorman drive through the little window the standard and triplex cabs had, and the motorman was smoking. At one point he opened the door and came out. I said to him "you are not allowed to smoke on the subway". He repied "little boys should be seen and not heard". I never forgot that, probably because it was the first conversation I ever had with a motorman!!!
well dont come here to LOS ANGELES and ride the rail systems
here !! very rude here !!!
well dont come here to LOS ANGELES and ride the rail systems
here !! very rude here !!!
well dont come here to LOS ANGELES and ride the rail systems
here !! very rude here !!!
As a civilian,and member of the riding public not subject to your "authority":let me convay my personal annoyance at people who used to play radios/tapes on public transit "back in the day". Your seections belong in your ears ONLY and, if the signs in the trains are correct it is also against the rules of conduct.
You did something wrong and someone called you up on it..Get over it.
No, I didn't try to take any pictures. Maybe I'll try this during my next visit (whenever that may be) and see what happens.... Thanks for the tip.
-- Tim
I heard on Wins 1010 there was some Police activity at the Gun Hill Road station on the number 2 line trains were held up or turned around at the East 180th street station.Did anyone hear about this?
Looking at this week's Chief the talked about Local 100 rule book slowdown as a "Veiled Threat" or "Rules vs. Reality" it seems to me it might work.
The glossed over some rules when T/O and Conductors "scrupulouly follow saftery rules". The TA answers "When the union calls for a rulebook slow action we generally notice no change in service. That's what the rule book there for, to keep trains running".
I feel that a slowdown might work and avoid fines under the Taylor law. If the train goes BIE the rule book calls for the T/O to check the roadbed. The rule book does not state how long the T/O has to take to check the roadbed.
MOW workers can take longer to double check their work locations before allowing trains to pass into/through a work zone. You now never see trains held for workers to clear out, I can see trains sitting at red flags.
Don't forget the Bus Division, how the maintainers call in sick even now. The chief points out that when a BUS comes up to a double parked car, it by rule can't go around it. The operator has to wait for the car to be moved.
Considering how slow things are on the Lexington Av line during the rush hour - do you think anyone would notice?
Anything that creates delays or inconviences for commuters merely creates a positive political climate for Pataki to crush your union. The smart thing to do is to drop any threat of an illegal work stoppage. If the TA is being as unfair to it's workers as you say, then make your case in front of an arbitrator.
I wonder if a rulebook slowdown began tonight. There were massive delays, and increased dwell times, on the F and A/C tonight after the rally. I guess we have a license to blame the TWU, rather than Conway and Reuter, for everything for a while.
By the book a train has to have the doors open Min 10 Sec and Max 40 Sec. Also The conductor as soon as the train makes a complete stop must Point at Board then turn key. Then Make Annoutsment and then close down. The Train Operator must obay all posted speed signs. Ofcouse the train won't arrive at the Terminal on time but it will be covered by the Book.
Also I do not Consider this a Slowdown besides its a violation of the current Contract and maybe the Taylor Law. I consider this Rulebook Enforcement.
Also we all should get on the Radio and report any thing that causes a delay of the Train after 30 to 40 Seconds.
It funny the TA Says theres no effect during a Rule Enforement since the rulebook way of running a train is slower then my Time Schedule. On the No.6 Line if you follow every rule the train should be 10 Minutes late. It doesn't really take 1 Hour to get from Pelham to Brooklyn Bridge it takes 1 Hr and 10 Minutes and maybe even more.
During our excursion last month, our J train had an instructor on board. At one point he mentioned to the novice T/O that you won't be penalized for arriving late at your terminal, but you can be if you're early.
Yikes. Why the hell is that?
The answer to that is simple. There are various factors in the rule book, such as slowing to a safe speed for work gangs, curves and posted speed limits. Rule 98I state that train operators will endeavor to economize their operation to make up lost time but only if it can be done safely. Rule 40 defining restricted speed states in part that we will NOT EXCEED 10 MPH. If I must operate in a condition where restricted speed is required such as passing a red signal, home signal, work gang restriction, or other train order related directive, there is NOTHING in the rule book that would prevent me from operating at 2 MPH or even less. All I have to say is I had a work gang on my line and I am covered for being late. The rule book specifically charges me with a violation if I arrive early. Now is the time for all T/Os and C/Rs to operate in a safe, efficient manner with passenger safety a number one concern. That means even if side doors must be reopened during rush hour to avoid striking passengers. Or if passing a yellow signal, operate PREPARED TO STOP! Call it a Taylor Law violation if you want but I will call it abstaining from a trip to Labor Relations. The rule book protects management from us when we screw up so it is time we use it to protect us from them. Rule 2A says the NYCTA rulebook applies to all employees and must be obeyed as such. Rule 4a states that employees are required at all times to perform their duties in accordance with the rules. We must all follow the rules.
Thats true as long as there is a reason for lateness.
The problem with a rulebook slowdown is that the effect is not much different from doing a bad job. And once TWU workers start doing a bad job WITH approval of their fellow workers, it will be hard to stop, even after a contract.
From then on, management will (with some reason) be off the hook for the quality of service. A subtle form of retaliation would be to let the goldbricks get away with it, then blame ALL the workers. Pataki, Reuter et all can just accuse the TWU of continuing a lousy work effort despite a substantial raise. Then the next contract will come up....
HAHAHAHAHA! I guess you weren't riding with us tonight. Wouldn't you like to know.
Yes, it will. Because Conway and Reuter don't drive the trains. Anything that effects delays on the commuters will automatically, and correcty, get blamed on the TWU workers. This is why a rulebook slowdown will surely backfire. All it does is create a climate for union busting. People want the TWU workers to be treated fairly. But they want their trains running on time. Unfortunatly for the TWU, on-time trains are more important.
I agree. Have the union make commercials about how the MTA exploits its workers. Make the stories real and personal. Tell the public its not just about money. Make it seem like the workers are conserned about passenger as well as their own well being and that the MTA could care less.
Now that's a good idea. And it's certainly cheaper than the Taylor Law fines that the union will be forced to pay should they foolishly choose to engage in an illegal work stoppage.
Hey Chris, do you work for the MTA? You sure push that party line along.
Now consider this: if the union DID accept arbitration, who's to say that management would play fairly, knowing full well that the union has been emasculated by the Taylor law? Considering the TA's long history of duplicity, what recourse would we have?
Now that asked, what do YOU do for a living? Apparently it's some sort of management function. Or do you sit at home fuming at the radio while you listen to Rush Limbaugh, and Bob Grant. Because from the opinions you have expressed, it's painfuly obvious that you have never had the charachter building, humility inspiring experiences of labor. Be it delivering messages, flipping burgers, or driving a cab. Those who have never had these experiences frequently look down upon those who have, and tend to share your condescending viewpoint.
When was the Taylor law passed, sometime right after the air-traffic controllers, I would guess.
dave
WRONG, WRONG, WRONG. It was passed as an anti union government-no longer has to bargain fairly law a few years after the 1966 strike. I believe Gov. Rockefeller signed it into law. It is a state law and not a federal law as you imply.
It is a NYS law. I was under the impression that the Taylor Law was a pro-union piece of legislation designed to legalize the previously illegal public employee unions and require, for the first time, that public agencies in NYS allow their employees to bargain collectively. I thought that it was always illegal to strike against the public in NYS. It's been years since I used to go down to PERB on a regular basis. Have I got this wrong?
Thanks to Reagan, arbitration is a joke. A work stoppage would grab the public's attention, and hurt GOUHLiani's senate chances.
"Thanks to Reagan, arbitration is a joke. A work stoppage would grab the public's attention, and hurt GOUHLiani's senate chances."
More like help him, after he crushes the union that disrupted the lives of almost every New Yorker for what would be perceived as TWU's selfish desires.
Tell me please, what exactly do you and the others who share your opinion feel it is that Il Duce will do to "crush" TWU?
The law, and the courts will only be able to do so much. The AFL-CIO and the other municipal unions will not stand by and watch as the megalomaniac persecutes us. Pataki would like a VP nod, so don't expect him to go against Big Labor. Il Duce will stand alone and look like the bully he is, and then Hillary's gang of democratic sycophants wll tear him apart. Remember despite his getting elected this is still a democratic town. And the MTA, and it's subsidiary NYCTA is a State of NY agency not subject to the mayors control.
So again, what will the thug in city hall do?
"Hilary's gang of democratic sycophants" I'd take Hilary and her sycophants over ronald SATAN'S ugly wife the astrologer What the Democrats should do is get a Ken Starr type and go back and kick open the Iran Contra and DRUG Contra rat's nests and expose ALL the GUTLESS COWARDS who KILLED AMERICAN CITIZENS and aided the killing of CLERGY and give them the only kind of respect they deserve, there is no statute of limitations for TREASON
If you kick ALL the crooks out of govt, there'll be no one left to run the country.
Arbitrators generally give you everything you had before, and a bit more. That means if you were overpaid in the past, you stay overpaid, and if you were underpaid in the past, you stay underpaid.
I think the TWU would do OK in arbitration.
when a BUS comes up to a double parked car, it by rule can't go around it. The operator has to wait for the car to be moved.
Is this a throwback to Trolley days, where the trolley COULDN'T go around a double-parked vehicle?
Also, the bus operator, should he/she choose to do this, would be risking his/her safety, if you ask me. It wouldn't take much for some road rage nut to try to board the bus and have it out with the operator for not moving it.
--Mark
(Road rage on a bus)
Anyone in a hurry to get anywhere wouldn't be on a bus to begin with.
"'(Road rage on a bus)'"
"Anyone in a hurry to get anywhere wouldn't be on a bus to begin with."
Not a passenger, an automobile driver getting ON the bus to duke it out with the driver. Although those hydraulic doors are pretty hard to open if the driver doesn't open them and you can't pull the release inside. (^:
If the nut had a lug wrench or similar tool, he could bust out a window and force his way on board. I won't say anything about having a gun.
Chris R all a rulebook slowdown is, is the following of rules to the letter.
eg. doors must be open a min. of 10 seconds
When I get to a station with no one on the platform and one person gets off I will keep the doors open for the remaining 6-7 seconds before I start closing down. All I am doing is following the rules. Another example is:
When someone is holding the doors, reopen announce "Please stand clear of the closing doors" and close down if the doors are still being held repeat.
That will be fun at rush hour when trains will be in stations for 2-3 mins
Except at Lexington and 53rd on the E/F. Then trains will be in the station for 2-3 hours.
[When someone is holding the doors, reopen announce "Please stand clear of the closing doors" and close down if the doors are still being held repeat.
That will be fun at rush hour when trains will be in stations for 2-3 mins]
(Conductors not closing until passengers stand clear)
Then again, after a couple of weeks of hell, passengers might actually start standing clear of the closing doors, and yelling at those who do not!
anyone know about fire on the tracks at far rockway today
Serious service delays occurred this morning due to a fire on the Beach Channel Bridge (isn't that the same one that plagued the LIRR when they owned that line?). I assume that some road ties caught fire, since I recall the TA replaced the old wooden bridge with a steel one.
Anyhow, there was one important plus to the delays: I was able to ride an R-46 A train at rush hour w/o getting my ribs crushed!
Doug aka BMTman
Are you sure that was an R46 or R44. If it was an R46, do you remember the car numbers and approximately what time you rode the train.
Far Rock, I didn't get the car number, so it could have very well been an R-44.
Did you get into the City Okay? Any idea when the fire was surpressed?
Doug aka BMTman
From what I could see from the bus yesterday morning at about 10:30, they had already put the fire out.
CAUSE OF FIRE UNKNOWN, DAMAGE WAS 31 TIE'S AND 40FT OF FIBERWALK AND GUARD TIMBER. IT TOOK ALL AVAILABLE PERSONNEL IN T-3, THIRD RAIL, SIGNAL DEPARTMENT AND CAPITOL TO RETURN THIS BRIDGE TO SERVICE.
THEY ALL PULLED TOGETHER TO ACCOMPLISH THIS GREAT JOB.
MY COMPLIMENT TO ALL CONCERN.
From what I understand, there was a fire on the North Channel Bridge, the bridge connecting Howard Beach with Broad Channel during the early morning hours on 11/17/99. By the time I arrived at Rockaway Blvd., en route to Far Rockaway at 10:15 am, the same morning, I had to get off at Rockaway Blvd., go downstairs and catch a shuttle bus to B. 90th Train Station, then go upstairs and board a 4 car (R44) shuttle to get to Far Rockaway. This shuttle ran between Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park only.
From what I understand, passengers who needed Aquaduct or JFK Airport, instead of taking a shuttle bus from Rockaway Blvd., they would have to change for a shuttle train at Rockaway Blvd. which would take them to these destinations.
This condition lasted clear through the AM and PM rush hours, as well as midday and evening.
I noticed on my way to work (approx. midnight Thursday) the trains seem to be operating normally. I didn't see any shuttle buses along Cross Bay Blvd. (this being the route they would have to use) at all.
I was on a A train heading out to the Rockaways when we were held up Rockaway Blvd at about 4:30 A.M. We were then switched to Lefferts Blvd. and informed of the fire.
I just copied the following from the MTA 2000-2004 Capital Program Website. If anybody can provide any insight or opinions to this please do.
The Proposed 2000-2004 Capital Program
New York City Transit proposes $1.993 billion to purchase 1,130 new subway cars, not only replacing 927 existing subway cars but expanding the fleet by 203 cars. Coupled with the subway cars ordered in the 1995-1999 capital program, 415 cars will be added to the fleet (a seven percent increase) to support ridership increases resulting from the MTA's fare initiatives.
The A division fleet purchase of 320 cars ($487 million) will complete the normal replacement of the remaining pre-stainless steel cars, named the Redbird cars. In addition, the A division fleet will be expanded with the purchase of 150 cars ($229 million) to accommodate ridership growth and to extend the length of certain trains from nine cars to ten cars.
The agency will also purchase 660 B division cars ($1.277 billion). This includes 607 cars to replace cars from the R40, R42, R32GE and R38 car series, which are at the end of their useful lives. Another 53 will be purchased to expand the B division fleet to accommodate
ridership growth.
This is a long way down the road. Didn't the original plan include money to rehab many of the R40/42 cars becasue it found that these cars being overhauled would be a much cheaper alternative to replacing them all?
What's wrong with the R40/42 that justifies them being scrapped in 5 years? I'm sure they could last longer.
Part of the problem with those cars is that their bodies are not completely made of stainless steel (Unlike the R-32 Brightliners). The roofs are standard gauge steel and the ends are fiberglass. Where the roofs and ends meet the rest of the body rust and corrosion is beginning to show.
However, as has been previously mentioned, to rehab most of the R-40/42 fleet would certainly be cheaper -- in the short-term -- than purchasing all new cars to replace them.
Doug aka BMTman
Some of the R40s (especially the Eastern Division ones) look to already HAVE new roofs. They're patching the ones out of Coney Island but it wouldn't surprise me any if they got replacement roofs too.
I've seen what looks like new roofs on some of the R38s as well. I wouldn't go sounding the death knell for these cars just yet.
Wayne
11/18/99
Although this is a long shot,a minor possiblity of replacement of those cars is they are not OPTO ready.
Bill Newkirk
You think the R-32s will get (GULP) transverse cabs?
This is Javits Center
The next stop on this 7 train will be Hudson Boulevard
Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!! That would sacrilege!!! Blasphemy!!!!
Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!! That would sacrilege!!! Blasphemy!!!!
Don't forget "Heretic".
Abomination would also be an accurate description of putting transverse cabs on the R32.
I can say only that it would be a crime against humanity and trainity too!
This is Sixth Avenue
The next stop on this 8 train will be Christopher Street
Noooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Say it ain't so!!!!!!!!! That would sacrilege!!! Blasphemy!!!!
Don't forget "Heretic".
11/21/99
What they did to the R-32 fronts to achieve G.O.H. can also be described as blasphemy,sacrilege and heretic!
Bill Newkirk
What they did to the R-32 fronts to achieve G.O.H. can also be described as blasphemy,sacrilege and heretic!
Bill Newkirk
No route and destination signs, no marker lights, no Express/Local indicators. Just a plain front stripped of everything I just mentioned, with a route indicator that you can't even read. I know that all the stuff I mentioned is no longer used on the newer equipment, but as long as the R-32's (and 38's, for that matter) already had these features, they should have left well enough alone. The fronts look naked, like there's definately something missing. Even if you never saw an R-32 prior to its overhaul, you would know that something was altered and something is missing. At least an R-42, 44, 46, 62, 68, etc. looks like a finished product up front. The R-32 looks unfinished. It looks like an automobile without a bumper.
You are dealing with an organization that has grown to "improve" service, "overhaul" cars and buses and "collect" revenue from the state of New York. The NYCTA and it's umbrella, the MTA have been making these changes all in the nickname of safe, efficent service. It is cheaper for the TA not to have to pay a Car Inspector to change or maintain a rollsign, lightbulbs and associated assemblies. Of course the Inspector General thinks it is perfectly OK for the 30 extra supervisors now in place hired after the closure of one of the busiest overhaul shops, the 207 Street Overhaul shop to stand over CIs that can't change marker lights. The TA official excuse as to the removal of the marker lights and Local/Express lights was posted in a bulletin dating in 1993 requiring the markers to be set at RED on all remaining cars. That excuse was "due to the replacement of satelite towers with new master towers, it is no longer necessary for the route markers to be set" because the tower operators jobs were cut and replaced by route request buttons. In other words, the TA really needed 5 people to change a light bulb.
They could have left the front of the R-32/38's alone and just set the markers to double red. The fronts of those cars look terrible as they are.
Those red/green express/local indicators were obsolete and useless. They were removed for the same reason the double-letter routes were removed. Some lines run express in some areas and local in others. Besides, when I saw them they were almost always lit wrong.
What I miss is the days when the side destination signs lit up. I can remember the R16 and R30's on the J line used to have the destination sign that the train was headed towards lit up, to let people know which direction the train was going.
I don't know if they were obsolete and useless. When there were satelite towers in the system, I always got questioned if they were improperly displayed. I know a few years back working in IRt ground, I was asked by a passenger if I was a Flushing Express because the lights weren't working. By the way, I got some green light bulbs on R-10 cars to light again and light properly, a task which many didn't care about. I think the TA pulled fuses just to save on the electric bill.
Other than the hard to read backlit LCD route indicator, I think they did a wonderful job overhauling the R32. I do miss the the aquamarine seats.
"Other than the hard to read backlit LCD route indicator, I think they did a wonderful job overhauling the R32. I do miss the the aquamarine seats."
That is NOT a Liquid Crystal Display at the head of the R-32. It's a simple mechanical flip-dot.
I did not know that. You learn something new every day, i guess.
If you want to see LCDs in the subway, check out the side signs on the R-44/46. For LEDs, check out those signs that buzz for an incoming train. Now, not all LCDs suck like the R-44/46 signs, laptop monitors, and the screens on many ATMs and all NJT ticket and PATH Quickcard machines are good color LCDs. Those flat monitors are also LCD. The big Phillips Flat TV IS NOT LCD, but is rather a plasma screen, which does a poor job rendering black (ironically, it's because it doesn't glow bright enough). LEDs are any little indicator light you can find. Or the VCR display.
You think the R-32s will get (GULP) transverse cabs?
In previous posts, you indicated that you wanted ding-dong chimes installed on the R-32's, along with single hand controls. Now you want full-width cabs. Do you also want to put them on the rack and stretch them to 75 feet? Quit picking on those poor cars! Haven't they been basrardized enough?
NO WAY! I put the GULP before the word TRANSVERSE because I fear it, and it seems this is what the TA might do, but then they'd have to cut a window where a door pocket is, so it's unlikely. I guess that now if I ever post I have to include countless disclaimers, definitions and footnotes so I won't be misunderstood. I thought In fixed that with the GULP.
BTW, I FIRMLY stand behind all my previous proposals on the R-32 except for the chimes (that I'm willing to forego), I still fail to see why you chose the single handle controller from among all of my proposals as your example. I put it because it seems easier to run the train and help the crews. And of all these improvements, especially the controller, I fail to see how this will affect your ride detrimentally. Tell me, how does a one hand controller/brake ruin your ride?
This is Grove Street, change for the 10
The next stop on this 8 train will be Journal Square
BTW, I FIRMLY stand behind all my previous proposals on the R-32 except for the chimes (that I'm willing to forego), I still fail to see why you chose the single handle controller from among all of my proposals as your example. I put it because it seems easier to run the train and help the crews. And of all these improvements, especially the controller, I fail to see how this will affect your ride detrimentally. Tell me, how does a one hand controller/brake ruin your ride?
Yes, If I happen to be looking out the railfan window and the T/O's cab door is open. It would ruin my whole day. BTW, how would you like to drive a car that had the brake and accelerator all on one petal? Push your foot down, it accelerates, put your foot underneath it and pull up, it brakes!
OK, whatever, I still stand by my other stuff except for the chime and the LED head signs. I'd prefer to have rollsigns, motorized unless that's still impractical.
OK, whatever, I still stand by my other stuff except for the chime and the LED head signs. I'd prefer to have rollsigns, motorized unless that's still impractical.
No Prob!
However, that's not how "one-pull" hand controls work in an automobile. Acceleration moves one direction, deceleration (to coast) moves back to the middle, move past the middle and braking occurs. Simply letting go does not apply the brakes.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You think the R-32s will get (GULP) transverse cabs?
In previous posts, you indicated that you wanted ding-dong chimes installed on the R-32's, along with single hand controls. Now you want full-width cabs. Do you also want to put them on the rack and stretch them to 75 feet? Quit picking on those poor cars! Haven't they been bastardized enough?
Oh, and to add, when were they bastardized to begin with? OK, not counting the front end sign.
Sorry, I forgot about the blue doors, you needn't answer anymore
This is Journal Square, change for the 10
The next stop on this 8 train will be Harrison
The next stop will be Newark-Penn Station.
Oh, and to add, when were they bastardized to begin with? OK, not counting the front end sign.
The front is what I'm talking about. YUCK!
11/21/99
I'm glad trhis subject came up. Now I can get a laugh out of all you guys.
When the R-38's come up for retirement,sell them to SEPTA. Maybe about 25 cars. Apply orange decals to the smooth stainless steel cars and use them as ball park specials. Why not! with the exception of the B-4 and new M-4 cars,SEPTA has always been a source used and unusual equipment.
The R-40 slants,I don't know. Maybe sell the to Cuba and see them retrofitted with pantographs on the old Hershey Electric line!
Since we're in a generous mood,why not sell the R-68's to Bagdad when the build a subway or transit line. That's another way of BOMBING them !!
Bill Newkirk
I'm glad trhis subject came up. Now I can get a laugh out of all you guys.
When the R-38's come up for retirement,sell them to SEPTA. Maybe about 25 cars. Apply orange decals to the smooth stainless steel cars and use them as ball park specials. Why not! with the exception of the B-4 and new M-4 cars,SEPTA has always been a source used and unusual equipment.
The R-40 slants,I don't know. Maybe sell the to Cuba and see them retrofitted with pantographs on the old Hershey Electric line!
Since we're in a generous mood,why not sell the R-68's to Bagdad when the build a subway or transit line. That's another way of BOMBING them !!
Bill Newkirk
Maybe we should just let the Chinese steal the technology to build R-68's for the Beijing subway.
11/22/99
Maybe we should just let the Chinese steal the technology to build R-68's for the Beijing subway]
What technology??
Bill Newkirk
"What technology??"
Stone tools are technology, I'm sure the R-68 can qualify.
Maybe we should just let the Chinese steal the technology to build R-68's for the Beijing subway]
What technology??
The Chinese just sent an unmanned spacecraft into orbit, entering the Space Age 42 years behind the times. If its American, they'll steal it! They would probably steal R-27 technology. It would be right up-to-date over there.
so what if they do steal it. R-27 is old tech. we evolved into something beyond their reaches
Well, they are better off stealing the R-27/30 than the R-68. I'm sure we've already had Chinese spies trudging through the brush off I-5 in Los Angeles to get a better look at those old cars some studio supposedly has stored there.
Ok, it's SLOW. But why do so many people hate this car?
You just answered your own question.
I don't hate this car so much. It's seats are better than the R-40 they are rounder, higher backed, front/back available, more edge of bench seats, more edge of benches where side leaning is a comfort, there are only 4 such seats on the R-40, 30 on the R-68. Not to mention that the R-68 has 80 more seats per train. This is a LOT more important in the morning than speed. In the evening, I want speed, and any seat will do. Of course, I don't care that much about this anymore as I take the 2 out of Flatbush now and always get my favorite wall seat across from the cab, which also happens on Tuesdays and Thursday where I take the bus 50 blocks north, when my destination is south just to get a seat on the Q.
MUST SIT MAN of Royal Island
"Not to mention that the R-68 has 80 more seats per train."
I apologize for my error, it is actually 120 more on an R-68 than on an R-40.
I don't HATE it, in fact I am rather fond of the car interiors, especially on the R68A (with Black Floors, of course).
I am disappointed with these cars' apparent lack of motive speed.
When was the last time an R68 dusted an R40?
Wayne
Back in 1994, the R-68s had an MDBF of around 25,000 miles. Today, just 5 years later, it has increased by over 300%. This is even more remarkable when you consider that the advanced propulsion package, the braking improvements, the now door tracks, and revamped HVAC have yet to become a factor. The R-68, all 425 of them, will surpass the R-46 as the backbone of the B division in terms of reliability. As for the major complaint about not being a jack-rabbit, I'll paraphrase what a very lovely lady once tole me while describing herself:
"They are built for comfort and not for speed."
Steve: The R-68's may surpass the R-46's but they will never PASS them, in fact I doubt if they could pass anything. This said I did say some good words about the R-68's finding a home on the Franklin Shuttle. It would make good sense to assign the entire fleet to all the one mile long shuttle lines on the system. That way we could replace them with faster cars, like the Q's.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
does the r68 have a railfan window ??? if it dosent its is a piece of junk !!!!
The slowpokes have a full-width cab on the A end and a half cab on the B end. At one time, you'd get lucky once in a while and get a train with the half cab facing out on the first car. I lucked out a few times and the view was great. Unfortunately, this is no longer the case; the remaining single units always operate with the T/O in a full-width cab. The reworked 4-car sets also have the full-width cabs facing out.
Say, Larry, I think you're referring to the slant R-40s on the Q. I'm afraid the old Q cars wouldn't be able to keep up with even the R-68s. Imagine that!
Steve: I was referring to the Q-Types even with the Composite trucks.
Whatever transit official let the R-68's out of the yard onto the mainline should be arrested for "contributing to the delinquency of a RAPID TRANSIT train."
Best Wishes & Happy Thanksgiving Larry,RedbirdR33
You know, since tomorrow's Turkey Day, maybe we should all celebrate with an R-68 ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Q-Cars! Hell, they were the SLOWEST things ever to run. And let's call the R68's BUTTERBALLS for Thanksgiving. I wonder if the 420-pound T/O is still working on the "D" line. I'd bet it takes quite a spell to get from Prospect Park to C.I. with him at the helm.
Anyway, everybody have themselves a HAPPY THANKSGIVING. Our 14-pound R68, er, Butterball is almost finished thawing and I (yes, I) have about four hours of cooking work to do come the morning - the ceremonial making of the Clam Bisque (the consistency of papier-mache, of course) and the 36 ounces of Parks Hot&Sagey sausage to go into the stuffing (along with a lot of butter and two whole onions), and I got me a 1.4 POUND Rutabaga which I'm gonna mash up with some brown sugar & milk. Plus the Bruce's Canned Yams (in heavy syrup), the Brown & Serve dinner rolls, couple of big ol' baked taters (w/Sour Cream), yep, we're loaded for Bear. The Pumpkin Pie just came out the oven about 20 minutes ago and it's chilling in the fridge. I can't wait to see what my sugar/cholesterol numbers are gonna be come Saturday morning - I already warned Dr. Hwang that it isn't gonna be a pretty sight.
Wayne
I didn't think your remark about Dwayne was very funny. The next time I have an R40, Ill take it through the tubes at 30 and light to the yard. You can criticize anything you want but please don't single out T/Os and conductors. I might be YOUR union rep one day.
A 600 foot train of R-40 Slants weighs in at 178 Lbs. per HP while the R-68 weighs in at 204. This gives the Slants (and most 60' cars) a decided (13%) Hp/weight advantage. However, the slants and 68s were about equal before GOH when the HP of the R-40s was increased from 400 to 460 per car (15%).
So I may be right in my prior posting that the Westinghouse cars seem to have a disadvantage, including those with the Ecam. GE equipped cars have higher ammeter readings at particular MPH than the WH. I remember before the fiasco with the field shunt mods GE SCM equipped cars R30 easily going to 55 with about 100 amps on level track with Westinghouse R32a about no more than 50 MPH. Are they ever going to modify the R22 collector cars? The TA should consider scrapping them or slowing them down if they are really serious about safety.
All of the collector cars have been modified.
I know a handful of WH R36s have indications of field shunt strengths below 100% including 9500-01 and late 9400s out of Pelham. How can a safety rep prove a train is too fast for the bulletins to force CED to modify them? We aren't supposed to look at ammeters while moving forward but by feel, I know if a train is accelerating too fast for the bulletin pertaining to field strength but would have difficulty putting it on a G2. I feel one way to get public pressure on the MTA to make them provide faster service is to make the service noticibly slower to the passengers. Obviously many on this site agree that certain cars and lines are too slow but if the MTA board is unawre or unconcerned, nothing will change.
Unconcerned is the operative word there.
Can't anything be done to make them accelerate faster? Most people in here say the R44/46 had some zip injected into them when they went out for their GOH in 90-91.
Yeah - restore field shunting. They're stuck in fifth gear without it.
"Can't anything be done to make them accelerate faster? Most people in here say the R44/46 had some zip injected into them
when they went out for their GOH in 90-91."
These trains did get faster, especially the R46's. The acceleration on them were really slow (slowest in the system). But after sometime, they did manage to pass the R44's which were also very slow.
N Broadway Line
OK, I will sheath my sword and lift my pen (actually, my keyboard).
But taking 8 minutes and 22 seconds to go from 125th Street to 59th Street under what was basically a full green is PATHETIC. DETHPICABLE! Phooey!
The R68 interior IS a pleasant surrounding, and the seats are quite comfortable. You are correct; they are built for comfort and not for speed. And Good show on that MDBF rate!
I'll suffer with the slippery seats of my sublime Slant R40s. Give me a good old "Q" train any day and get rid of that fool GT (and its attendent Idiot Sign) approaching Newkirk Avenue! Brakes at the boards and a perfect stop, just like the good old days.
Wayne
Think of the slants as the Road Runner and the R-68s as Wile E. Coyote.
Beep beep!
I think the R68 is more akin to Sylvester the cat, watching Speedy Gonzalez (every other subway car in the fleet) disappear in a cloud of dust.
Wile E. Coyote can run pretty fast.
I think the R68 is more akin to Sylvester the cat, watching Speedy Gonzalez (every other subway car in the fleet) disappear in a cloud of dust.
Wile E. Coyote can run pretty fast.
How about Ricochet Rabbit and Deputy Droop-Along.
"Think of the slants as the Road Runner and the R-68s as Wile E. Coyote."
I don't know about that. Wile E. Coyote is not really slow. He just isn't very smart. Look how many mistakes he makes? On the other hand, the Slant 40's are more like a racer, while the 68's is like a station wagon.
N Broadway Line
I tend to think of the R-68s like one of those old Volkswagon vans that were out in the 60s and 70s before everyone was making vans -- lots of space inside, but apparently powered by a hampster running a treadmill.
I think most everyone here who bashes the R-68 does it due to their lumbering nature. (As far as cartoon characters go, I would call them the Peter Pottamuses of the MTA)
When you can remember how an R-10 took the CPW express run and then have to watch the local stops s-l-o-w-l-y pass by today, or can see an R-40 (that the MTA apparently has slated for the scrap heap in the next few year) blow past an R-68 on the Brighton line, it's hard to find them very endearing, even if their reliability has improved as much as Steve says.
J: I like that. The "Peter Pottamuses of the MTA." It even better then
the "Silver Hippos." Seriously though concerning what you said about the hamsters, they just don't make them like they used to.
Larry,RedbirdR33
It is not surprising that the 68s, after completing this SMS
program which is nearly a GOH, will surpass the reliability of
the R46 fleet which is now more than 5 years out from its GOH
(which was not nearly as heavy as the rest of the fleet).
Credit is due to CED, however, for bringing the reliability of
these lemons up to snuff over the years.
The R-68 interior is not nearly as attractive as the R-46.
The excessive use of brushed stainless steel (this applies
to the R62/62A and 68A as well) creates terrible interior
lighting glare. Operationally, the car is sluggish and
unresponsive in both motoring and braking, however it does
score points over the R44 and 46 designs in that it retained
the traditional 2-handle controls and rugged H2C couplers.
I agree with you about the R68 interiors. That polished metal makes them far too shiny and bright. The R44/46 have a warmer, easier on the eye lighting scheme.
11/24/99
I have one observation of the phenomenon of R-68 bashing. I believe we do it because we are railfans and that irresistable need for speed.Some of us don't care about MDBF or rebuilds. We just love a fast subway car that gives us the impression of bouncy off the tunnel walls !! Remember the post war equipment and some memorable SMEE's?
Bill Newkirk
Yesh, the R10s come to mind (SMEE) and the AMUE-based R-6 and R-7 were capable of breathtaking speed as well.
Today's fastest are no doubt the Redbirds (division A) and the Slant R40s (division B).
Nothing beats the adrenaline rush of a subway train in full flight, with stations passing by in a blur. That's one reason I'm SOUR on the R68s and SWEET on the R40s.
Wayne
I too like to have FUN when I'm riding the subways. The R-68 & R-46 don't offer much of that. Sitting as a customer vs. a Rail Fan at the storm door also takes a lot of the enjoyment away from it, so the R-62s aren't high on MY list of trains to catch.
Not that long ago I rode every day to get from point A to point B (LIRR & Red Birds), then a seat, AC and other comforts were more important.
So ... we need guys like Steve who cares about keeping those Hippos & Rinos in good shape for those customers out there.
Mr t__:^)
My feelings exactly.
That also goes for an express blowing past a local, something which can still be experienced on the Brighton line.
Your comment on the R-6s and R-7s reminds me of my first experience on the Queens line in May of 1968. IIRC, our E train was coasting through the curve under Northern Blvd., then as we approached 36th St., the motorman reapplied power and the bull and pinion gears just bellowed out a resounding F# above middle C. That station became a blur as our train shot past. That ride left me thinking, "Hmmm - the E does run express after all. At least in Queens, anyway." This was after I almost blew a fuse when that train stopped at 75th Ave. before switching to the express track, and I was thinking we would be making all stops all the way to Manhattan. I still refused to take one south of 42nd St. Still do to this day.
I think Frank Corrall would have said something like, "Screw this passenger comfort chicken#$&@! What the hell did they expect for their lousy $1.50 - a limo ride?"
You articulated that very well, Bill. Thank you.
Although it's true that in most cases you can't tell
because there isn't enough room. When you do get to a
favorite stretch it's been ruined by either a timer that
really didn't need to be there, or the emasculated
equipment.
I miss the good old days, when an R-46 whistled as it
released, and that stainless steel console shined in the
darkness of the tunnel. When an E or F barreling down D3
through 65th St. down the little dip, and around the curve
could do 55 MPH. All the people aboard would be pressed
into the right wall as the train rounded the curve, and
the thrill was visceral. The memory brings tears to my
eyes.
That is why I am "formerly known as" and I'll never
forgive those bastards.
This isn't like an R-10 that reached it's day, or a BU
which grew obsolete. You can understand those things. I
miss the R-16's, but I understood, and even wen't so far as to save one. No easy task mind you. But what of those revolutionary cars, the R-46's?
All I have now is a few home shot videos, the memory of what they used to be like, and a deep resentment for the people at DCE engineerng.
The GOH R-46 cars were a little faster on the initial jump
than the pre-GOH cars and were reasonable on top end. Of course
that's before the great "erasing the RAPID from RTO campaign".
And NOTHING touched an R-46 in WAYSIDE REGULATED, back in the day.
The cineston handle was a travesty. I was in CEE at the time it
was spec'd and I yelled loudly but to no avail. They had used a
similar design already on the R-44 "Westcode" conversion. Crews
despised it. They had two test trains for the R-46, one with a
WABCO design and another with a NYAB. Both designs were similar and
in the end a compromise design was awarded to NYAB. Again, crew
complaints fell on deaf ears.
What did they wind up choosing for the 142 controller?
Wayside Regulated. They should have been allowed to travel that way all the time. That way they could have the power to crest hills without slowing down. but of course they don't trust the motormen. Funny. Other operations do. LIRR cars can do over 100. They are limited to 80. No one goes crazy over there. The ALP44 can do 125. They are limited to 100. No one goes crazy at NJT. Jeez, PATH cars can do close to 60. They are limited to a very slow speed on most of their system. Humnn. Something is rotten in Denmark.
Thanks Jeff. You can be the only guy from over there that I don't dislike.
"Ladies and Gentlemen. This is your conductor speaking. I would like to apoligize for our less than rapid transit system. We hope to be moving shortly."
I actually make that announcement. Gets a few laughs too.
The R68s are ONLY slow because of the field shunt coils, not because they are R68s. When they were brand new with inshot valves, I got them to 56 MPH going from 34 to W4 including a flat 1:55 from the starting line to the stop. Thats almost a one minute mile including acceleration and deceleration using 40 to 50 Pd braking. Badmouth the owners, not the equipment. If you stop and think about it, the westinghouse cars are all slower then the GE. Anyway, keep the system slow, the TA says we need a safer system.
Actually, we need more reliable train operators so all of these new safety features would be rendered unecessary.
i will BSAH any R 60 and higher that does not have a RAILFAN WINDOWS
like BART ATLANTA PHILADELPHIA ORANGE LINE LONDON ENGLAND ETC!!!
"i will BSAH any R 60 and higher that does not have a RAILFAN WINDOWS"
Railfan Windows are unneccessary in a Track Gang Car. Track gangs go out to work on the tracks anyway.
"like BART ATLANTA PHILADELPHIA ORANGE LINE LONDON ENGLAND ETC!!!"
Both of Philadelphia's subway lines have railfan windows, not just Broad Street (Orange).
Steve, from a TA/maint. prospective (MDBF, HVAC reliability) the Hippo may be a great piece of equipment, BUT from the view of a customer and more specifically Rail Fan it's a dog. It's lumbering, sluggish, unresponsive, and cramped (low ceiling). I may ride in comfort and arrive on time (Hippo time without delay due to equip. failure), but I don't enjoy it. The Rino, R-46, at least moves a bit faster.
Mr t__:^)
I'm not sure if its the signals, the rails, or the cars that have to change, but the TA has to get the subway up to 20+ miles per hour INCLUDING STOPS.
Currently, it takes an hour to travel the 15 miles from the outer rim of Brooklyn to the northern reaches of Midtown -- scheduled, if everything goes right. To that, you must add the walk (or bus) to the station, the wait for the train, any additional waits due to changes, and the walk to the destination. Compare that with the trip to work in other places, and its just too long. The Q makes it in 40 minutes, which is OK, but Brighton Beach, not Stillwell. Forget the other services.
Local trains need to accelerate to 40 mph+ between stations. Perhaps new signals will make this possible, particularly off peak when there is less express service. The Manhattan Bridge needs to be replaced.
After 63rd St opens, the station at 71st -- Roosevelt should be local only on the Queens line to save a stop. Do we really need the 28th Street stationS on the BMT and IRT lines? We don't have them on the IND. Is Rector Street really needed -- its not that long a walk from Whitehall and Cortlandt. Couldn't Bleeker and Spring on the Lex be combined into one station at Houston, to save a stop?
We need the Second Avenue Subway so Pelham riders don't have to crawl all the way downtown on a local.
How about running the G to Church, keeping the F to Kings Highway a local, but running the F to Stillwell express in the peak direction? I'd lose out, but on balance it would be worth it if local stops kept half the F trains in addition to the G.
[ ... but the TA has to get the subway up to 20+ miles per hour INCLUDING STOPS ... ]
I absolutely agree with you on that Larry. Many parts of the system are packed to the point that this would be the only way to increase capacity. From the edges of the system, this kind of a goal would have the benifit of drawing more folks out of their cars ... isn't that one of their missions ?
Which is better toward that goal: skip stop or use of the third pair of tracks ? Why was the 3rd track removed from the J/Z ? or many of the Brooklyn lines that go to Coney Island ? If it's a bottle neck at the Williamburg Bridge or the tunnels ... fix it first !
(Larry, I thought we were talking about Hippos, Rinos & Redbirds ???)
Mr t__:^)
11/24/99
R-68's (HIPPOS).....R-46's (RHINOS).....R-26,28,29,33,36 (REDBIRDS)
Boy , the subways these days are getting to be a real ZOO down there !
Bill Newkirk
hippos! rinos i agree it is a zoo when you dont have a
RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!! salaamallah@yahoo,com
"BUT from the view of a customer and more specifically Rail Fan it's a dog. It's lumbering, sluggish, unresponsive, and cramped (low ceiling)."
When the R-68 was switched to the B from the Q, the Q customers complained and wanted it back and the senator representing the district where the West End El is, supported the switch. So, what do you think customers like better? The R-68 is not cramped, the ceiling is not lower than any other train on the B division, those ceilings are all the same height. The R-68 wins over the R-40 in ALL AREAS of the comfort department. They may be slower, but how much time would you gain (not counting the fact that the R-68 runs the local here)? Under 5 minutes. So choosing which car to ride is a choice of speed over comfort, just like choosing an empty local over a crowded express. From the view of the customer, the R-40 is the dog (I don't like that term, dogs are cuter and more behaved than some humans).
if the r68 HIPPO had aRAILFAN
WINDOW then it would be the
equal of the slant r40!!
thank you,
Well, it does on the B end of each car. Unfortunately, nowadays the full-width cab on the A end always faces out.
As for noise, the slant R-40s aren't that bad. I like their deep-throated rumble as they gather speed. Put it this way: the only time I ever rode on a painfully loud train in New York was the very last time I ever rode on the R-10s, on the C in 1988. And the R-10s weren't nearly that bad in their heyday. I never had to hold my ears on any CPW express dash with those cars. Chicago is another story. The noise level in the subway sections there is absolutely deafening.
The R40's are also much louder.
Train noise is a good thing though, it muffles annoying walkman noise.
The R40's are also bumpy compare to R68.
Then it's safe to assume the Triplexes were built for comfort AND speed.
The R-10s were speed, speed, and MORE SPEED!!
Steve, you are the king of the R-10 fans, you really should have your own personal R-10. I wish I could get you one...and then in gratitude you could get me an open platform gate car.
Thank you for the compliment, but I will respectfully pass that title to Mr. R-10 himself, William Padron. I consider myself the second biggest R-10 fan around, and am heavily into nostalgia (duh!!). I think what it boils down to is that the IND was built with high speed express runs in mind, and the R-10s were perfectly suited for them. To me, nothing will ever take the place of an A train roaring up CPW, bearing down on 81st St. at about 50 mph. I liken the current state of affairs to when the 55 mph speed limit went into effect. We were forced to do 55 on expressways designed for 70-75 mph. Boooriiiiig!
Maybe it's just as well those immortal cars are no longer with us. As much as I miss them (you're not alone, William), the thought of a train of R-10s with no field shunting, struggling to get up to 35-40 mph would be too much for me to take.
Let's not let nostalgia cloud our memory. The fact is that the R-10s were built with four (4) 100 HP motors. it's balancing speed was rated 50 MPH and maximum operating speed was 45 MPH. This was the same for all cars from R-10 up to R-42, pre-overhaul.
This data is from "NYCT Passenger Car Data, 1947 - 1976" by New Car Engineering Dept.
The R-68 cars were lemons since the day the TA started running them!!! They have a low MDBF (Mean Distance Between Failures). Most of the TA's fleet are more reliable than the R-68. They're so slow, that they can barely make the climb out of the 60th Street tube up to Queensboro Plaza. They can't climb that hill any faster than a measley 18 mph. Now that's pathetic!
I'm a motorman, and I live on the D line, but work on the A line, as the equipment is far more reliable than the pathetic R-68's!!! I just can't stand operating that junk!!!
Well Glenn, it's a good thing you don't let your ignorance of the facts get in the way of your postings. The R-68s (both Coney island and Concoures) have a higher MDBF than most B division cars. However, if you know better, why don't you post your statistics and let us all know where you get your facts. In the meantime, let me give you a few of mine. The MDBF for Concourse Shop (all R-68) for November is approaching 200,000 miles (highest in the B division). The 12 month moving MDBF for Concourse Shop is well over 100,000 miles (again the highest in the southern division). Finally the miles/maintenance man-hours for the R-68 is higher than all cars in the B division other than the R-46, making it more efficient to operate than most. What facts do you have to contradict those. They are slow but they are also the heaviest car in the system. As for the grade out of the 60th Street tube, you are correct but II've seen no car make that climb any better.
Does the R-62 still have the highest MDBF?
This month the R-62s are approaching an amazing 400,000 miles MDBF. One reason for the A division to do so much better than the B division is that all the A division fleets are locked in while B division cars usually have 2 homes. That makes it harder to get them back for necessary maintenance.
What car class currently has the lowest MDBF this month?
--Mark
I'm not sure but I'd suspect it was either the 38s or the 40s...
Why do you want to stop the R-62 MDBF? What does that even mean?
Beats the hell out of me. Most likely when I switched the subject I didn't do it correctly. Is it better now.
Now, that's incredible! How long does it take for a typical subway car to log 400,000 miles? 10 years, 15 maybe? My Jeep, which I will have had for 12 years on January 16, will reach 400,000 miles sometime next year, barring an unforeseen major breakdown, all on the original engine which is still oil tight.
It is irrelevant how long it takes for a car to accumulate 400,000 miles. MDBF is computed based on a fleet and is totally UNRELATED to the fleets size. Take for example the R-46 fleet. Each month the R-46 fleet travels 3.5 million miles. If there are 35 delays CHARGED to mechanical failure on the R-46 fleet, then the MDBF will be 100,000 miles. If the R-62 fleet travels 2 million miles per month, then 5 charged delays = 400,000 miles MDBF.
To answer your question, however. It is estimated that depending on the service it runs in, the average NYCT revenue car will travel 10,000 miles every 50 to 66 days.
Thanks for the clarification. Even so, a MDBF of 400,000 miles is very impressive no matter how you slice it. It just goes to show you that well-maintained equipment lasts longer and breaks down less often.
Steve, you said that the MDBF is unrelated to fleet size. To make things simple, let's say that the R11 fleet was just 5 cars and that a train of 5 R-11's made 4 round trips a day on a route where a round` trip was a total distance of 25 miles. Or the train traveled 100 miles a day. First would that be counted as 100 miles or 5 X 100 = 500 miles. I have the feeling that it is counted as 500 miles. Then if this train was in service for 30 days, would this give a total of 30 x 500 = 15,000? If the R-11 had 2 breakdowns during this one month period, then is the MDBF 15,000 / 2 = 7,500 miles?
It's the total milage for all cars in the fleet. You are correct. If the fleet size were 5 cars and each one did 100 miles, then the total would be 500 miles. But if the fleet size were 10 car, then each car would only need to travel 50 miles to give the same level of service. Otherwise, you are essentially correct.
Thanks for the info Steve. Now if I may continue my cross examination. I originally thought that the MDBF was a figure that would be a figure that would represent the average distance that an individual car went before a failure. But I can see now that it is more like an average number of miles that the whole fleet of cars went between failures. I am still bothered by that. In computing the total number of miles the fleet travels, you add in the mileage that each car of a 10 car train travels. If that 10 car train fails though, you only count it as 1 failure and not 10 failures. But that's just the way they figure things. If you apply that to all the different classes of equipment, you can get a figure that can be used to compare performance of different types of cars and I suppose the quality of the maintenance on each of the cars.
Now, what is considered a chargeable failure? If passengers hold a door open and the door engine fails ( if there are still door engines ), then I would imagine that wouldn't be a chargeable failure. What are chargeable failures, and how much latitude is there in designating something chargeable?
If a train breaks down, that's more often than not the responsibility of only one car.
Charging of train delays is one of the biggest bones of contention in the department of subways.At one time, this was done by a delay committee which would decide and even apportion charges based on percent of blame. Now charges are assigned by RTO in a very ambiguous manner. Let me cite examples.
If a train is late for more than one reason, the division responsible for the first (not the greatest) portion for the delay shal be charged. Hence, an E train leaves WTC 1 minute late because it was slow charging. En route it is delayed further by customers holding door. It gets to parsons/Archer 7 minutes late. This charge might eassily be a charge to car equipment.
In other cases it is just an arbitrary decision by the console operator at Jay St. Here's another example. Last Monday AM was very foggy. A 'D' train comes over the Manhattan Bridge & into Dekalb Ave. As the train enters the station, the train operator reports smoke/haze 50 feet in front of his train. The console operator orders the train out of service even though the smoke could not have possibly come the train. He then charges the delay to car equipment even though RTO supervision (A Train Service Supervisor) repeatedly told them via radio that there was nothing wrong wit the train.
Currently, if car equipment feels that a charge is unfair, we have 48 hours to get it changed by the line superintendent. Failing that, there is a protest mechanism where written protests are submitted at the end of each month. Roughly 25% of all protests are upheld.
BTW: MDBF for individual cars is also kept. It is used to compare a cars' performance against the rest of the fleet.
Steve --- Again my thanks for your explanations. If I it pleases the court, I would like to ask this excellent witness a couple of more questions.
I'm confused about your example of the E train running late, and the delay being charged to car equipment. Let's say the delay was charged to car equipment, would that be treated as a failure of the equipment, and thereby affect MDBF?
I am especially interested in stats for MDBF being kept for the individual cars. I'd be almost willing to bet that if you could access the MDBF for a couple of R62's at random, and take their average, it would not be anywhere near the posted fleet MDBF.
In the case of the E train, the charge would be against car equipment for a slow charging train. The lead motor (first car) would initially be charged BUT when the shop answers the delay, the proper car gets the "credit". However if the shop reported "No Defect Found", the charge to the lead motor would stand.
As for your second question, if you look at individual MDBF stats, they are computed on a 12 month basis. You'll also find that a large portion of cars are listed as No charged delays in the last 12 months. In the case of the R-62s, I think you'll find most charged delays are charged to the end cars leaving the 3 middle cars charge-free. Same with the 4-car links. The only time these cars have a charged failure is in the case of doors.
That would almost temp me to believe that contact portion pins are NEVER cleaned. If inter car cables are changed out on SMS every few years but pins are not serviced, then the TA caused this problem to begin with. I can prove it. Look at the MDBFs of 37371, 7460, 37303 and S01-02. Here is a train that has 2 chargable delays to CED a pick. For the R22 fleet, what is the MDBF and does it include the rebuilt cars for Revenue Dept? In the SMS, work cars are almost never worked on. They get serviced after the major breakdown or incident. I have NEVER seen the CWR train go in for SMS. They did however cut out DCR05 because it had flats excedding 6 inches. Why not work on the enitre train? Are they really serious about safety? Or just the year end bonuses?
DOn't start rumors - there are no year end bonuses. Collector cars are brought in on a time schedule (every 30-60 days) for preventive maintenan inspection. At that time cars are cut and all Electric Portions are serviced. In the case of linked units with Litton/Veam connectors, they require no service according to the maufacturer. Also since work cars accumulate no milage in the computer, they have no MDBF. Their delays are not used in the calculation for fleet MDBF. That is only compiled for the revenue (passenger carrying) fleet.
Not a rumor. I stated I can prove it. Kick a shutter door on one of the work motors mentioned and you WILL see a shower of steel dust. Or try using the side doors on the trainline with S-01 in the middle. R17 door engines burned beyond recognition and a train that never leaves a yard with side door indication. I know for a fact that pulling your own teeth can be fun and painless when compared to getting certain problems with car equipment fixed. I'll email you a G2 I wrote to system safety on these cars if you like. It shouldn't have to take System Safety to get a train cleaned. I'd still like to know the MDBFs on cars that are in work service. This train is ABD at least once a week due to CED.
Harry, when I referred to rumors, I was referring to bonuses for managers. However, feel free to E-mail or simply mail that G-2 to me and I'll put it into the hands of those responsible. You are correct that you should not have to go through hell to get things repaired. On my lines people don't.
in your Concourse fleet what is the best and worst for "end Cars" and "inside cars"
Since the cars have all been through an overhaul in the past 12 months we are actually starting from zero again. Ask me again in a few months. That is of course if I am still there ina few months. Looks like the merry-go-round may be spinning again (and I'm starting to get dizzy).
That December 1986 article about the demise of R-16 6321 had a few MDBFs for individual cars. The biggest eyepopper was an R-10 which was croaking every 484 miles or so. Ouch!
Glen, Don't let our friend Steve intimidate you, he's just very proud of the work he & his crew do up in the Bronx ... nothing a matter with that! I'm sure there are a lot of customers that appreciate his work, just not too many Rail Fans.
Mr t__:^)
Funny you should mention 18 mph....
Last month, during my day-long subway excursion, the J train we were on made its assault on the Williamsburg Bridge at that exact same speed. Even the instructor who was on board made a comment about that.
Too bad a more comfortable trains operators seat wasn't installed.
I totally agree with you Bill. I find the seat and driving position very uncomfortable. Too bad 'Methods & Operation' doesn't make more of an issue out of operator comfort. If they did you'd have seats like the R-46 or possibly like the LIRR engineers seat.
Um, is the MTA on a path towards eliminating ALL conductors on ALL lines at ALL hours?
I'd like to know, as I hope to be one someday ...
Um, is the MTA on a path towards eliminating ALL conductors on ALL lines at ALL hours?
Probably. They did this in Chicago. I think Boston does the same thing. We're next. I'm against it, though. It will mean more time spent at each station, longer travel time.
We aint Chicago or Boston. If this is true, then my position on a strike might change ...
We aint Chicago or Boston. If this is true, then my position on a strike might change ...
I don't like it any better than you do, but mark my words, single-man crews will be the norm here in NY. When MUDC came about, many people probably bucked it the same way. Look at the realities, once the NY system is 100% automated, do you see any need for 2-man crews?
Well no, but I'll be watching my grandchildren graduate from college by the time the whole subway system gets "automated".
The thing is, it will probably happen way before everything is automated. I just gave that scenario as the latest possible time. I predict it within 10 years. Since full-width cabs came into existence, the days have been numbered for railfan windows and 2-man train crews. The days are also numbered for non-automated service. They've been since the R-44's were on the drawing board. You know very well that anything after R-42 is capable of ATO. We are advancing technologically at an astounding rate. What's on the drawing board today is obsolete before it goes to production. I predict 100% ATO in NY within the next 20 years.
We aint Chicago or Boston [in terms of 100% OPTO]
But I just heard that London is now 100% OPTO. That strikes really close to home.
Mene, mene, tekel upharsin...
So I guess my future as a conductor is, um, not very bright, huh?
I wonder what T/O's make??
The last time I looked, c/rs had a no layoff clause. So I guess ypur future as a t/o is bright.
[Mene, mene, tekel upharsin...]
?
[Mene, mene, tekel upharsin...]
?
"Mene, mene, tekel upharsin" is another way of saying "The handwriting's on the wall". if you have a Bible, read Daniel Chapter 5. It literally means:
Mene-God has numbered your kingdom. It is finished.
Tekel-You have been weighed in the balances and have been found wanting.
Upharsin-Your kingdom is divided and is given to the Medes and Persians. In the Bible, a hand wrote those words on the wall. They were directed at King Belshazzar.
11/22/99
Isn't the proposed CBTC system for the (L) Canarsie Line a forerunner of OPTO?
Bill Newkirk
Question about CBTC:
Is the R142 equipped to use this new system, like the R143 is for the Canarsie line? If it's successful, the 7 line should also be automated.
The R-142 comes with the provisions, just like the R-143 I believe.
Remember, until the ENTIRE L train fleet uses the R-143, then the automation will not be active, and the R-143 will run on the old fashioned signals. In addition, the M will use R-143s, that won't be automated for now.
The MBTA is still two-man, except for the trolleys. But every car in a Trolley MU has its own operator.
db
The MBTA is still two-man, except for the trolleys. But every car in a Trolley MU has its own operator
Thanks for providing this info on the MBTA. I wasn't sure. Are they thinking about single-man operation in Boston? I know that Chicago does it.
I thought it was one for every DOUBLE car set.
If you think that we have vandalism problems now, if the TA eliminates the conductors, this problem will greatly increase. More BIE's, more door problems, more scratchiti. How will doors get cutout- the train operator having to walk all the way to the back of the train= more delays! OPTO might work in other cities but here we have too many problems for it to work effectively. I am a conductor and I see plenty. It is impossible for a train operator to handle a 8 or 10 car train OPTO by himself. One passenger accident or dragging and a lawsuit will end this idea quickly. Hopefully it wouldn't get that far and the TA wakes up before it ends up paying a huge settlement to whoever got hurt,
If you think that we have vandalism problems now, if the TA eliminates the conductors, this problem will greatly increase. More BIE's, more door problems, more scratchiti. How will doors get cutout- the train operator having to walk all the way to the back of the train= more delays! OPTO might work in other cities but here we have too many problems for it to work effectively. I am a conductor and I see plenty. It is impossible for a train operator to handle a 8 or 10 car train OPTO by himself. One passenger accident or dragging and a lawsuit will end this idea quickly. Hopefully it wouldn't get that far and the TA wakes up before it ends up paying a huge settlement to whoever got hurt.
You make alot of sense. However, I'm sure that many gatemen said the same things when MUDC came about. They will find a way. In the future, I'm sure we'll see trains operating without even one human being.
A brief news report earlier this week sheds some light on the City's spending priorities - and illustrates why transit's low man on the totem pole. Lucky Polyethylene company is getting $4.5 million in "incentives" for opening a manufacturing facility at the former Farberware factory in the south Bronx. It sounds like an okay deal, as the 425,000-square-foot plant's been vacant for the past few years since Farberware decamped for greener pastures. Yet it turns out that Lucky is taking only about 20% of the building, or about 85,000 square feet. That's not much more than a suburban K-Mart. And they're not a start-up operation, but are relocating from a smaller facility in Brooklyn. But the most ludicrous aspect of the deal is that Lucky, which now employs 65 people, will add a grand total of - drumroll please - *twelve* jobs. That's $375,000 of incentives per job. And that's assuming that the City has an ironclad guarantee that Lucky actually will create and maintain that many jobs (if you really believe that, I've got a bridge over the East River to sell you).
I know, $4.5 million won't build the Second Avenue line or a tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge. But it *could* do a lot of good for transit. Instead, it's being thrown away on some pipsqueak deal.
Yeah, sometimes the City is so eager pander to a private sector employer that they fail to see the long-term "big picture".
The creation of twelve jobs out of that deal is completely ludicrous.
What a waste of some BIG BUCKS.
Doug aka BMTman
Went to a meeting at 130 Livingston Plaza yesterday & while signing in noticed some new stuff in brochure rack.
- 1. All the bus maps have been revised as of Sept. '99
- 2. "MetroCard Discount Coupons": The discounts don't seem to have any tie in with MC use, i.e. show your MC for $2 off ... but if you were thinking about doing one of these sites why not save a buck ?
Am Museum of Moving Image; Intrepid; Metro Museum of Art; Smithsonian Am Indian Museum; So. St. Seaport "Passport"; UN; Am. Museum of Nat. Hist.; Guggenhime; Lincoln Ctr.; Botanical Gardens; Snug Harbor Cultural Ctr.; Top of the Wld Trade Ctr. Obs.; Whitney Museum of Am. Art.
BTW, All expire 12/31/99
Mr t__:^)
At the Museum of Nat Hist there is no admission, just a suggested contribution. You set your own price.
[At the Museum of Nat Hist there is no admission, just a suggested contribution. You set your own price. ]
I noticed the same thing on a couple of these, e.g. do they charge to walk arounfd Lincoln Center ? Do they charge for tours of UN ?
Some aren't actually a discount on ADMISSION, e.g. Am Museum of Nat Hist it's a 10% discount at Museum Shop; Smithsonian Am. Indian it's 10% off basic membership of $20. Some have other restrictions, e.g. UN $1 off tour AFTER 3 PM.
I didn't want the post to go on for ever ... it was more of a "stop by a subway station & pick up brochure"
Sorry if I misslead anyone :-( Mr t
My grandfather would takes us to Nat. History and would give them a nickle for the five of us. Each and every time and this is back when admission was only a few dollars not $18 a person. I have yet to get the nerve to do it but I might with a large group.
I've gotten into the Met on a quarter, I don't feel bad about it, taxes pay for it's direct subsidies and the fact that it's in Central or Fort Tryon (whichever division) Park means it uses city property.
$10 is for tourists
Sorry for using the wrong museum.
Top Ten signs you're a tourist:
...
5. You pay $10 to get into the Met.
...
This is Lefferts Boulevard
The next stop on this C train will be the Van Wyck Expressway.
Attended a meeting at 130 Livingston Plaza yesterday, it was about money, we think the TA is short changing us.
Went via company car (myself, our Controller & DOT suit) ... yes I had to find my suit again. Traffic was heavy all the way from Grand Central & BQE to Brooklyn.
I let my two companions go back in the car. After a botched attempt to hook up with a SubTalk friend who works in the area I had a burger & got a new Pokeymon for my Grandson, then descended the stairs at Jay Street. In a moment a "F" R-46 arrived (Pullman Std, 4 car set ... that's a R-46 right ?). Rode her all the way to 34th even though I had several opportunities to switch to a D (if I'm going to have a opinion about these beast I should give them a good long run). Will have to admit the ride was more pleasant then one on a Hippo (R-68). Too bad it doesn't have a rail-fan window :-( Am thinking that I should call them Rinos ... they're BIG, faster then a Hippo, but starting to show their age, and are endangered !
At 34th had to run for a QM-2 that was just pulling in. The Orion CNG operated just fine and Tom & I exchanged a lot of small talk, so it was a pleasant trip over the 59th St. bridge & down Northern Blvd. It was also valuable for me to see first hand the delays that this run experiences at even this early afternoon trip. (was a lot of tour buses at Radio City that had 6th Ave squeezed down to one lane, but none of Rudy's ticket writers were anywhere in site) ... they harass us a lot now when we try to park between runs, i.e. what are we supose to do with a bus that arrives a few minutes early for it's run ? Guess they want us to arrive exactly on time or LATE or drive around the block polluting mid-town ???
Disclaimer: I don't have anything "officially" to do with our Transportation Dept., but I am interested/semiparasitic to their problems.
Mr t__:^)
The Daily News is reporting (brief article in the business section) that the NYC Transit Authority will be vacating 370 Jay Street to move to 2 Broadway. There is the answer to the question I asked some time ago. The building is owned by the city, which is considering a sale.
I say great. It could be gutted, have a more attractive facade put on, and used for a hotel. We REALLY need more hotels. It would be right over the subway to Manhattan.
I just hope Rudy doesn't try to steer the thing to his pals, play politics, and screw the whole thing up, like he has with the Navy Yard movie studio.
A hotel you say? Right. Just like the kind the city destroyed in the Times Square area clean up. That is about all that area is good for!
Or how about an annex to Metrotech. That way Chase Bank wouldn't need to uproot 3500 people out of the city. The TA's money department facilities are still there. An easy conversion for the bank, no?
Personally, I'd hate to see anything negative happening to 370 Jay; I have lots of sentimental attachment to it. As a high school kid in the '60's I'd spend more time at Public Relations than at school! Only kidding, but this budding railfan did get my feet more than just wet there.
Joe C.
Yeah, I gotta admit occasionally cutting class in high school and spending an afternoon chatting it up with the PR Department at 370 Jay. Back in those days there wasn't all of this high-security. You could just walk off the street and go up to the (I think) 12th Floor and even ask for pics of your favorite train, bus whatever, and usually someone would get you one right there and then, or at least notify the Archives Department to find you one by time of your next visit. Just try that with them nowadays -- I think NOT!
Doug aka BMTman
What about the building on Livingston St (190?) ... that was recently built. Is the MTA consolidating everything to 2 Broadway?
Where would the revenue train "dump its revenue" now? (Does it still do this work under the Jay St building or am I stilll in the movies?)
--Mark
(What about Livingston Street)
That's a nice, new building. The Daily News didn't say anything, but I assume the TA will keep it for "back office" functions, and just more the "head office" to 2 Broadway.
(What about the revenue train)
I guess they could build a platform at South Ferry Loop. Either that or they could move it over to Livingston via the Transit Museum.
They could use the inner loop platform.
Who is the Bill Gates of NYCT signaling. It is the inventor of the Wheel Detector for crossover slow downs and the Contruction Manager of the ATS Project for the IRT. It's is Blaise Archis.
Who is the Bill Gates of NYCT signaling? It is the inventor of the Wheel Detector for crossover slow downs and the Contruction Manager of the ATS Project for the IRT. It's is Blaise Archis.
Are you Subtalkers going to make a field trip the 155th Street Shuttle and visit the tunnel under those apt. building? What's happening?
Mr. Train Control, I'd like to. I'm going to try and find it this Sunday, during my trip through the Bronx. If you want to join me and my associate when we go to the location of the shuttle, I'd love the company. Especially since I don't know where exactly to go and what to do.
You cant miss the tunnel, its visible from Jerome Ave near 162 street or so.
The bridge abutment over the Metro-North line is visible also, best viewed in a car from the Harlem River Drive.
Remnants of the Willis Ave spur and 3rd Ave El (pillar at 183 Street) also visible, in the area.
HAVE FUN!
also remants of the old Third Avenue structure can be visible above the 2/5 line just below the Jackson Avenue station.It was used as a express track to the 241 street station
also remants of the old Third Avenue structure can be visible above the 2/5 line just below the Jackson Avenue station.It was used as a express track to the 241 street station
Also check out the platform remains at Sedgwick Ave. The directions for getting there are mentioned in the abandoned underground stations list. The neighborhood isn't bad so I think it's worth visiting. It's also a good time of the year to see it, since the the leaves from the vegetation would normally hide the platform from view. While you're there you can also see Metro North trains passing by, and what I believe is the old Putnam freight yard in the distance.
-
Also check out the platform remains at Sedgwick Ave. The directions for getting there are mentioned in the abandoned underground stations list. The neighborhood isn't bad so I think it's worth visiting. It's also a good time of the year to see it, since the the leaves from the vegetation would normally hide the platform from view. While you're there you can also see Metro North trains passing by, and what I believe is the old Putnam freight yard in the distance.
I also recently posted pix of a Polo Grounds Shuttle Walking Tour that I went on 25 years ago. Visit my site NYC TRANSIT
Last night, I was riding the R3 West Trenton express home which was
due in to Woodbourne (my stop) at 6:00 as train #6378 (the schedule
identifier, not car). I was in the 5th car back in a 6 car train.
Shortly after leaving Langhorne station, I stood up and joined the
line of about 5 people waiting at the door. I felt some shuddering
that felt like braking, then more shuddering. Slowly, the train
shuddered (and it did shudder - it wasn't smooth at all, and I
could seemingly feel the cars knocking against each other) to a
complete stop. I'm guessing we didn't go BIE - I don't recall hearing
a *chuff!* or being thrown around too hard.
My first thoughts were that since we were a few minutes late, perhaps
a freight from the yard had beaten us onto the tracks and we'd have
to wait for it to head north & out of the way. Finally, a conductor
walking towards the rear told us that we "may have hit someone".
We sat there for 1/2 hour or so, and then they confirmed it was a
suicide attempt. (The most I heard the whole night was that someone
had put their neck/head down on the tracks, and they were definitely
dead.)
My first thoughts were along the eeeeew variety. What if we were
still on top of the body? (It turned out that it was a couple
of train lengths behind us.) Southbound train #373 was finally cleared
to go past the body (don't know if they knew exactly where it was at
that point), and eventually wrong-railed it's way back north after
terminating it's southbound run around (Neshaminy interlocking?).
Annoyingly, about an hour after the accident, whilst on the radio
busses were being coordinated (arriving? departing? couldn't tell) for
373, when our head conductor - who did an excellent job on what I
heard was her last night - asked about us, they said they hadn't quite
worked things out yet.
We sat out there for 1 more hour before 373 made it back up to us.
You'd think a train full of people who'd gone over a body would be
their first priority after the body itself, but nope - apparently the
people stuck at the station were. (Probably because we couldn't get
off the train and make a fuss.)
The poor engineer was reading the paper "trying to pace himself" the
conductor told me. I'm gussing he'll have some fun interviews and
tests before his 3 days off.
So, here come the questions:
Anybody else out there ever been on a train where this happened?
Is BIE the way it happens after someone is hit?
(morbid) 6 car train vs a human body - how many sets of wheels go over
before there's nothing on the rails anymore?
Is 2 hours an unreasonable amount of time to sit around doing nothing
between stations (in the woods) after your train's hit someone?
-Lee
[Anybody else out there ever been on a train where this happened?]
I was on a Metro North train a few years ago that hit a car at a grade crossing (fatally).
[Is BIE the way it happens after someone is hit?]
I'd assume that the engineer of your train pulled the cord when he saw the person ahead.
[(morbid) 6 car train vs a human body - how many sets of wheels go over before there's nothing on the rails anymore?]
Presumably, whatever body part was directly over the rail would be severed by the first set of wheels, and the rest of the body would fall off to either side.
[Is 2 hours an unreasonable amount of time to sit around doing nothing
between stations (in the woods) after your train's hit someone?]
Most definitely. After that Metro North incident, we were transferred to another train in a little over an hour.
I was on a Metra train that ran someone over. It was most likely a suicide.
Union Pacific Northwest line to Harvard, and I was on the 6:20pm outbound local. I was getting off at Park Ridge, and so I was standing in the vestibule of the last car (being closest to the parking lot) as soon as we left Edison Park, when we stopped fairly suddenly. I heard the horn sound before this braking, but not particularly frantically so I thought we were still honking for the Canfield Avenue grade crossing. We were stopped with the engine about halfway between the Canfield crossing and the street crossing just before Park Ridge station, Prospect Avenue. Anyhow, they kept us on the train until the 6:30pm express to Mount Prospect passed us a minute or so later (it typically passes the 6:20 either at Park Ridge station, or somewhere between Edison Park and Park Ridge, anyway) and took the passengers off the train. I was at my destination, but the other passengers who were continuing on had to walk to Park Ridge and boarded the 7:30pm outbound when it came just a few minutes after schedule time.
In the meantime, the cops, fire department paramedics, and eventually the medical examiner came. The body was under the second-to-last car, at least three cars back from the locomotive, and the cops kept unauthorized people from approaching. All we could see from where we stood was a small mass or bundle under the train. People from all over the neighborhood milled around, and rumors spread that the man had come out from behind some bushes lining the tracks just before the train came through. (Between the aforementioned street crossings is a half-mile of line without any legal crossings, a parallel street on one side of the line and fencing along most of the other side of the line to separate residential lots from the tracks.) But to show how unreliable the rumors could be, some people were saying it was an elderly man, while others said it was a young man just above his teens. After a while, with cops and ME's men crouched down near the body examining the scene and picking up stray parts, some cops held up a blue tarp to shield the undercarriage of the train from view while the ME's men put the body in a black body bag. They wheeled the body on a gurney into the ME's van just before letting the 7:30 outbound proceed past the scene. Once the body was gone, the crowd dispersed fairly quickly, and I left just as a television crew (local cable, I think, not one of the broadcast stations with the 9PM or 10PM news) pulled up.
The only thing I heard about it later was a brief paragraph in the neighborhood paper mentioning the man's name, that he was a middle-aged Indian (as in from India) man, and his family hadn't seen him for a few days before the incident. There was no mention of suicide vs. accident.
I was on an Amtrak train back in 1987 that was struck by a car (the car drove into the side of the engine). I don't think it was a fatal - I was in the coach that stopped right over the grade crossing so I had a pretty good view, even at 4 AM.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As long as we're posting morbid stories of train vs. human here's mine. When I was a rookie cop in '82 we received a radio run for a "female down" at Livonia Av & Rockaway Av at 0300 in the morning. Person down jobs are usually nothing more than drunks in the street so we weren't prepared for what we saw when we arrived. A MAN (even though the dispatcher said "female down") jumped in front of a train in the el station above and was cut in half by the train at his waist even with the belt. His upper part fell off the el and was lying on Livonia Av. His legs were still under the train which we saw when we had the motorman move it. Witnesses said he just jumped in front of the train and a bible was found at the scene so it was an obvious suicide. I've seen thousands of gruesome things in my 18 years but this is one that stays in my mind.
Funny to see on this board how some folks avoided riding, at all cost, cretain cars. Case in point, the R10 and R16. It is almost unthinkable that this could be true! I went out of my way to catch an R10! Not that I avoided the few R-1-9's that plied the "A" line back then. No. What I mean was I avoided the IRT if at all possible just to ride one of those "gang bustin" R10's. Wow, they could fly! They already had a good head of steam built up by 72nd St. Can we ever forget the high pitch of the motors as the 10's hit the switch outside 81st St. going north? They'd cut through the station practically sucking up the passengers waiting on the local platform. And the sidesway! Oh yes, folks, the show's over.
Now, the R16's looked like fat R17's to this Bronx boy. What a thrill to see these things for the first time on the 15/Jamaica or 10/Myrtle.
They, too, could waddle. And did get up to speed on the express.
Funny. The R44's were always poor performers, from day one. Then the MTA rehab program actually made them snappy cars. And they are probably the quietest of all the B div. trains. It was actually fun riding them on the "A". That is until the stupid slow down of the motors. R44's-seems you just can't get a break!
Joe C.
I used to avoid R44's like the plauge. They were digusting cars to ride. I would wait for an R38 or an R40 (when they were assigned to the A). They are now running a little better now. It seems as though the silly field strength modification are being reversed somehow.
The trains i would avoid are the old R-16's on the QJ line back in the 70's the noise and rattling were incredible the R-40's an ugly subway car that made grinding noises at high speeds i think that they run on the Q line, The R-10 i dont miss this train at all!!especially when they were painted green and ran on the C line.My favorites are the R-46 on the A line, the flushing line redbirds, even though they are starting to show their age, and the train of my youth those ancient beasts, the old Low v's that ran on the Bronx Park Spur of the Third Avenue El. Dont ask me why they were over 50 years old, with sparks flying down on the street, with that distictive low groan, that strange sound when they are sitting idle a whirring sound and the big fan and rattan seats!my all time favorite train lol
if you think they were loud try the R1-R9 SERIES back when they ran!!
THE F AMD G trains sounded like they were going to fall apart
the new so called cars !!!
i used to like the old r 16s the track they ran on was tough and rough NOT THE TRAINS YOU COMPLAINED OF !!!
i believe TRACKWORK check out the Q line to roosevelt island
SMOOTH LEVEL TRACKWORK !!!!
"Beauty Is In The Eye Of the Beholder"
R40 seems to be succeptible to flat wheels and when they get them, they rumble, rattle, etc. i.e. #4222-3, #4246-7, #4268-9, #4272-3, #4258-9. When properly tuned they are a joy to ride despite their ungainly appearance. In a way they ARE ugly, with all that hardware stuck on their snouts, but therein lies their innate beauty.
Wayne
Absolutely true! Remember when they were new in late '67. Wow, they were show stoppers. Ugly today, yes, but speedy. Love ridin' the "Q".
Just about a year ago people were up in arms because they got the R40's and were screaming about the loss of the new (aka R68A) cars.
Similarly when the R40's were assigne dto the "B" the pampered bunch of passengers on the West End whined about the same thing. Sure wish the 40's could be assigned to the "D", my line (Bronx segment).Would make this boy happy.
JRC
That brings up a question -- does anyone know how most of the Q riders feel now about getting the R-40s? Are they still irked by the "old trains" or have they figured out the old trains are three to five minutes faster than the new ones were into Manhattan?
Not to sound mean spirited, but I sincerely doubt that any of them have even a clue!
JRC
Before switching to the IRT, I would always take the D as opposed to the Q in the morning because I want to sit. In the evening, I always ride the Q, seat or not.
This is Union Square
The next stop on this 8 train will be Sixth Avenue.
I wouldn't mind seeing the slants back on the A in place of the R-44s. At least that would bring back some excitement on the CPW dash.
I remember when they were brand new and replacing the R1-9's. They looked like something out of the Jetson's compared to the old IND cars.
I remember when they were brand new and replacing the R1-9's. They looked like something out of the Jetson's compared to the old IND cars.
The slant 40's were delivered in 1967-1968. They didn't replace any R-1/9's. They displaced R-7/9's to the BMT Eastern Division and replaced BMT Standards, as did the 40M's and 42's through 1969.
True, the R44/46 replaced the R1-9. However, some of the more troublesome R1-9 cars were retired when the R40 was delivered.
True, the R44/46 replaced the R1-9. However, some of the more troublesome R1-9 cars were retired when the R40 was delivered.
Maybe so, but the R-40's were not ordered as R-1/9 replacement. There are always some troublesome cars that will be replaced in a new car order. But, specifically, R-27/30's replaced Standards, R-32's replaced D-Types and remaining Southern Div. Standards. This is what I'm talking about. The R-40's were not ordered to replace R-1/9's. They were ordered to replace Eastern Div. Standards. As for troublesome cars, if you remember, the R-10's outlasted the R-16's, even though they were 7 years older than the R-16's. The R-32's will, without a doubt, outlast the R-38's and R-40's; probably even the R-42's.
Actually, the R27-30 cars replaced nothing, as they were needed to deal with a car shortage on the BMT in the late 50's. The only cars to be retired during their arival were the multi-sectional units. I also think the R32 will outlast everything, and see it's 50th birthday in revenue service, not in a museum.
Actually, the R27-30 cars replaced nothing, as they were needed to deal with a car shortage on the BMT in the late 50's. The only cars to be retired during their arival were the multi-sectional units. I also think the R32 will outlast everything, and see it's 50th birthday in revenue service, not in a museum.
Thr R-27/30's began to replace the unrebuilt A/B's. The remainder of the A/B's along with all the D-Types were replaced by the R-32's. If you don't believe me, then research it further. BTW, don't take everything you read on this site as gospel. There are errors on this site. one of them is the fare increasing to 20-cents in 1966. The TWU may have struck in Jan., 1966, but it wasn't until 1/1/1970 that the fare went up to 20 cents. I witnessed the R-27's, the R-30's and the R-30A's being placed into service. I know what they replaced. As for the R-32's being in service in 2014, yes, I think that's possible, but I doubt it will happen. They may be out of service by 2010.
So, do you have an ACCURATE fare history? I wonder if you can add it to the site. I noticed an error there since the beginning. Back when Jason R. DeCesare was still around, the list showed the fare going from 35 to 60 cents, in addition to being contradictory to the memories of EVERYONE I KNOW of a 50 cent fare, it meant the fare went up by 25 cents in 1980, meaning that the hike to $1.50 in 1995 was not the highest raise, but a mere tie. In addition, it showed the token changing to bulls-eye in 1984, WITH THE FARE UNCHANGED AT 90 CENTS! Only to rise in 1986. Or did I get that reversed. I really think that someone needs to set the record straight on this, and go back before 1953 for those unfamiliar with the evolution of the fare from a nickel to 15 cents and the drop from off-peak 10 cent fares on the els (it was still a nickel in the peak)! a farenomemon never to be seen until the Metrocard Reformation of 1997-99!
This is Christopher Street, change for the 15 train
The next stop on this 8 train will be Pavonia-Newport, change there for the 12.
So, do you have an ACCURATE fare history? I wonder if you can add it to the site. I noticed an error there since the beginning. Back when Jason R. DeCesare was still around, the list showed the fare going from 35 to 60 cents, in addition to being contradictory to the memories of EVERYONE I KNOW of a 50 cent fare, it meant the fare went up by 25 cents in 1980, meaning that the hike to $1.50 in 1995 was not the highest raise, but a mere tie. In addition, it showed the token changing to bulls-eye in 1984, WITH THE FARE UNCHANGED AT 90 CENTS! Only to rise in 1986. Or did I get that reversed. I really think that someone needs to set the record straight on this, and go back before 1953 for those unfamiliar with the evolution of the fare from a nickel to 15 cents and the drop from off-peak 10 cent fares on the els (it was still a nickel in the peak)! a farenomemon never to be seen until the Metrocard Reformation of 1997-99!
Unfortunately I don't have an accurate history, but I'll give you what I DO remember without a doubt:
prior to 1948 - 5-cents
1948 - 10-cents
1953 - 15-cents
1970 - 20-cents
Beyond that I can't give you dates, but without a doubt, the fare became 30-cents, then 35-cents, then 50-cents, then 60-cents. Between 60-cents and $1.50, my mind is drawing a blank. 20, 30, 50, and 60-cents I am certain of. I'm 98% sure the fare was raised to 60-cents in either 1979 or 1980. The fare may have been 90-cents for a while. I really don't remember. I can tell you with 100% certainty that the fare didn't go to 20-cents until 1/1/1970. There is nobody on this earth that could come up with documentation that the increase to 20-cents occurred before 1970. Maybe somebody down at 370 Jay can shed an accurate light as to when every increase occurred and how much.
Oh, I forgot to mention that when I e-mailed mr DeCesare about the obvious errors, he told me that I should disregard those things I heard and that the real data comes from research at the library on 42&5. I don't remember exactly because this was early in 1996. I'm sure the volume he used to research the history of the fares was "Faint Recollections of Subway Fare" by a Mr. Senile Old Man.
Anyway, I have some knowledge of the fares too:
1948: Subway 10 cents, bus 5, and combo 12
1950 subway and bus 10 cents, combo 15
1953 15 cents all, no combo
By 1979: 50 cents
1980: 60 cents
Between 1981 and 1985: The fare had been 75 and 90
1986: $1
1990: $1.15
1992: $1.25
1995: $1.50
Oh, I forgot to mention that when I e-mailed mr DeCesare about the obvious errors, he told me that I should disregard those things I heard and that the real data comes from research at the library on 42&5. I don't remember exactly because this was early in 1996. I'm sure the volume he used to research the history of the fares was "Faint Recollections of Subway Fare" by a Mr. Senile Old Man.
Anyway, I have some knowledge of the fares too:
1948: Subway 10 cents, bus 5, and combo 12
1950 subway and bus 10 cents, combo 15
1953 15 cents all, no combo
By 1979: 50 cents
1980: 60 cents
Between 1981 and 1985: The fare had been 75 and 90
1986: $1
1990: $1.15
1992: $1.25
1995: $1.50
As for research from the library at 42+5, I don't buy it. The only thing I'll buy is a newspaper article with the date on the page. If you want to know when the fare went up to 20-cents, find the Daily News dated 12/31/1969 or 1/1/1970. I'm sure that it is available on microfische. also, like I said in an earlier post, I'm sure they have records of the fare changes at 370 Jay. Nobody wants to admit when they make a mistake.
The A operates R44's
Shhh! it is.
The cars I now know as R10`s were in the 60`s referred to as "headache trains" Specifically the "A"train portion of the trip toRockaway Park. We`d catch it at Nassau st. where the tunnels are round and go roaring for an eternity till we reached Euclid ave. where we`d change to a (still)beloved R1-9.Aside from the R10`s noise my complaint as a kid was the front window-too high! I`d always have to stand on the beach bag to see out,one day I must`ve squished the suntan lotion bottle,it leaked a not so small puddle right in front of the Motormans door. What a (slippery) surprise must have greeted him when he emerged-serves him right!
Seriously though;by the late 80`s the R10 had and I had become sentimental friends,they were the oldest trains still in use that were connected to those wonderful beach trips.
P.S I still go to Rock park on the subway but air-conditioned cars and NO FRONT WINDOW it not the same.
On the CPW uptown express dash, an express would be at full speed by the time the storage track before 81st St. came into view. On the R-10s, that would be 50 mph, easily. Since they had helical-cut bull and pinion gears, there wasn't much motor noise. I always had the feeling that nothing could stop that train at that point. If you were standing on the uptown platform when an A train roared past, you got an earful. All ten cars would be a blur. D trains of R-1/9s would be wailing away at about F# or G above middle C as they raced past.
I know I wish I could have avoided taking BMT standards altogether, but since they were the only cars on the Canarsie at the time, and since the alternate means of getting to Williamsburg (A to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, GG to Metropolitan Ave) would not get us to Saturday school on time, I nad no choice. When the R-7/9s started to appear, I always hoped we'd get a train of those, but didn't wait for one.
The one train I avoided in Manhattan at all costs was the E. It didn't matter if the equipment was R-6s or slant R-40s.
You know, one of the best show stoppers on the IND was standing on the upper level, W.4th Street, front end of the southbound express platform. When the R1-9's were still around, it was a thrill feeling the rush of wind come up the tunnel as the northbound express shot past Spring Street. Then the faint sound of the motors could be heard as the train plunged downgrade toward the station. Sure, the motorman had to cut power by station entry time. Talk about not expectintg the train to stop! Wow, those beasts would slam into the station, hisssssing and wheezing, sparks flying under those wheels. You could just about feel the heat generated from the other side!
Never avoided THESE cars; sure do miss 'em.
JRC
As fondly as I remember the R-1/9s, I really didn't ride on them all that much on the IND, although I managed to ride them on every IND route except the B, BB, and HH. Most of my IND rides in the late 60s were on A trains of R-10s and D trains of R-32s. In fact, I rode on the old timers more frequently on the Canarsie line after they were transferred than on all of my IND rides combined.
Here's an estimated total of the number of R-1/9 rides I ever took on each IND route:
A: 5
AA: 9
B: 0
BB: 0
CC: 3
D: 10
E: 6
F: 1
GG: 3
HH: 0
Yes, I always did avoid the R-16's. I didn't avoid the R-10's until there last (and sad) days when they were demoted to lowly C line service. In the old days on the A line I was happy to get a train of R-10's. During the summer I'd avoid the non A/C cars.
Wayne
I am wondering if there is a page that lists the law of the New York City Metro system. Anything would be helpful
Got my copy of the Shoreline @ Branford newsletter yesterday and found a great photo on the back page.
In the background is a trolley barn, to the left is a Low-V, to right a BU El & in the center is a R-17 signed #7 Willet's Point/Shea Stadium. All three subway cars have their lights on and front doors open beckoning folks to hop aboard.
Maybe the editior, who is frequent poster here, will provide Dave a copy of this photo for all of you to admire !
P.S. I'm wondering out laud if the trolley members noticed that the two trolleys in the banner are from NYC (#1 PCC (1001) and a convertable (4573), i.e. no windows).
Mr t__:^)
Oh yeah, wasn't that cool? Maybe the editor could provide a photo. Times like this, I wish these events could happen more often. It's back to work on the R17!!! Hopefully, I can get up there shortly and finish up what I started.... Lou can't do it alone. Scrub, scrub, scrub, it's time to finish up this pretty lady in a red dress!
-Stef
my name is david, i'm a grad student at nyu in broadcast journalism. i'm doing a six minute tv piece on the second ave train line. i'm trying to incorporate the past, and the present and what is being done about it's future. one thing i need is access to the tunnels that were built in the seventies. do you know how i could get this. i know that chances are slim of getting it through mta, so i would even love to get any existing footage of it that is out there as well. so if anyone knows how i can get access to them myself or to get existing footage of them i would really appreciate it! thanks and take care!
-david
David - Mark Feinman has footage, I've sent you email offline.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
David ... e-mail me (mark_train@hotmail.com). I have video of the 2nd Ave tunnel under Chinatown. Here's a link to my video list.
For a brief history, see my Capsule of the IND article on this site. The later sections contain some info on the line and its history in MTA planning documents. If you want to dive even deeper, the site has a page devoted to the Second Ave Subway.
BTW, I'm also an NYU alumni (BPA 1984, now known as the Stern School of Business).
--Mark
Metro Buses to Accept Fare Cards
By Lyndsey Layton
Washington Post Staff Writer
Thursday, November 18, 1999 3:15 PM
Metrobus riders will no longer have to dig for exact change, after the transit system installs new bus fare boxes that will accept the same magnetic fare cards used in the subway system.
Metro directors today approved spending $24.7 million to buy and install the fare boxes for all 1,400 buses by 2002. Some buses will start getting the new boxes in 2001.
The fare boxes will accept both cash and the magnetic fare cards used on the rail system, as well as Metro's new SmarTrip cards, which have recently been introduced on the subway system.
"This will give us wonderful capability," said Naheem Tahir, director of Metro's office of systems. "The new boxes will take coins, $1 bills, $5 bills, $20 bills, magnetic fare cards and SmarTrip cards. The idea is to make it seamless – as easy for people to use buses as to use trains."
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Existing fare boxes, which require exact fare of $1.10 in cash, are about 13 years old and are wearing out, Metro officials said. New parts for those boxes are no longer available from the manufacturer, making repairs difficult, officials said.
Transit officials say the new fare boxes may also be compatible with other regional bus and rail systems, so that a passenger might be able to use the same Metrobus fare card on the Fairfax Connector or the Virginia Railway Express, for example.
WMATA's farecard is much better than MetroCard. At least what's left can print on WMATA's farecard, instead of going to a machine to detect what's left.
Chaohwa
So that one thing makes it all better. I hope you can read that crap after it's been printed on the same spot over and over. That disadvantage is but a small price to pay for a SUPERIOR farecard system. Our system has free transfers, YOURS DOESN'T, we don't have to pay-per-mile, YOU DO. And lets not forget that our vending machines are better than yours, even though we also have people selling cards. The only good thing the D.C. Metro has over NYC is padded seats.
So that one thing makes it all better.
Yes, as a matter of fact, it does. I think it's idiotic to issue a card where the balance is not available anytime, anywhere.
I hope you can read that crap after it's been printed on the same spot over and over.
I lived in DC for four and a half years and never had this problem.
That disadvantage is but a small price to pay for a SUPERIOR farecard system. Our system has free transfers, YOURS DOESN'T, we don't have to pay-per-mile, YOU DO.
None of which, of course, has anything to do with the farecard technology. Those are all fare policy decisions. A free-transfer, flat-fare policy could be easily implemented in Washington if the money was there.
-- Tim
Untrue, Metro busses don't take Farecards, maybe they will now, but they had 23 years.
According to today's Washington Post, WMATA approved yesterday to spend $24.7 million for new bus fare boxes that will accept the same magnetic farecards used on the subway system. New fare boxes, which will be installed on all buses by June 2002, will also accept Smartcards.
Chaohwa
They only zone the fares in DC during the peak hours, otherwise it's a flat fare of $1.10, I believe.
A day pass is available - it costs $5.00 and only good after 0930. You can also get a bus transfer at the station entrance, so that's half a loaf. $24.7 MILLION for new fare boxes? UGH! Where are they buying them from - the Pentagon?
Wayne
The bus transfer does not work in Maryland, applies an 85 cent discount on busses boarded in DC and 25 cents in Virginia. DC never has zones, even during peak, only MD & VA, and the MD zone fares are only used for busses to DC during peak. $1.45 from zone 1 all times, $2 from 2 peak, $1.45 off. In VA there's a complex zone system that becomes tamer in the off-peak. Maybe the WMATA website has this info, I got it from a WMATA brochure.
11/21/99
My question is will these new bus fareboxes "capture" any used up farecards??
Bill Newkirk
Washington D.C. has Cubic, just like NYC & Chicago. The bus farebox is SUPPOSE to return all farecards. It's only suppose to retain a used Transfer. There is also not SUPPOSE to be any way for it to eat a farecard.
Mr t__:^)
11/23/99
Thurston,
So what you are saying is that Metro will use two different farecards that are not interchangeable?
Bill Newkirk
I think it will start that way until everyone buys (for $5) the SmarTrip card. Just like tokens they will try to ease the public into the new farecard. Then as most folks move over, they'll kill the old swipe/dip card. Technically I think it's just an added disk on the side of the farebox vs. a new box ... could be wrong ... I should be getting a Cubic newsletter soon, maybe there will be some detail in it.
Mr t__:^)
SmartDeals started June 20, so that fare system is not in use anymore. It now costs 1.10 for a local bus, no matter how far you ride. Designated express buses are 2.00 (N7). Bus->bus transfres are free and Rail->Bus transfers give you a 85 cent discount. Also, some passes were modified, gotten rid of, and new ones were made. Ride-On changed their passes and now accepts rail transfres for 25 cents.
I hope you can read that crap after it's been printed on the same spot over and over.
Sorry, I never see that happens on DC Metrorail's farecard.
And lets not forget that our vending machines are better than yours, even though we also have people selling cards.
Show me why MVM are better than DC Metrorail farecard machine.
Every station has farecard vending machines. Farecard vending can sell farecards and all kinds of passes. We also can use credit cards to pay for them. Don't get me wrong. I also used MVM to buy MetroCards. I think DC Metrorail farecard vending machine is as good as MVM.
Chaohwa
I'm a native New York - so the NYC system will always be special to me - and I like the fact that you can pay $1.50 and ride across the city - and have the option of free transfer to the bus and vice-versa. and of course get a unlimited ride pass. These WMATA unlimited ride passes are quite expensive. Now I live in the DC area and I like the system because it's far more pleasant than NYC and the trains much faster. However I think the WMATA Metrorail is quite expensive and NYCTA is clearly more of a bargan. My opinion is that if you're talking about a quality ride - WMATA gets the nod, but in terms of getting more for the money - NYCTA far ahead.
Wayne
I totally agree with you.
DC Metrorail is not cheap.
DC Metrorail's one-day-pass costs 5 dollars; MetroCard's fun pass only costs 4 dollars.
DC Metrorail's 28-day-pass costs 100 dollars; MetroCard's 30-day-pass only costs 63 dollars.
Although you can park-and-ride, the parking fee costs a lot for a weekday, but free during weekends.
Chaohwa
Yes, having the option to park is good. It's unfortunate that WMATA fares are high, but I realize that WMATA has no choice and it's clearly is lacking in funds. All one has to do is look at the fact that WMATA still operates GM buses built in the early 1960's - and last year when they were receiving 262 new Orion Buses they were only able to accept 212. The remaining 50 were sold to NYC-DOT for Queens Surface (6) and Green Bus Lines (44) and definitely were not surplus buses - I'm told it was purely a financial issue.
Wayne
Good response. I am a lifelong New Yawker, but I visit the DC area regularly. DC Metro certainly is better than NY in terms of station aesthetics and car seats - but NY is certainly better in terms of frequency, service area coverage, and user-friendliness. The unlimited Metrocards are a good deal. DC's peak period fare system is way too complicated for a system its size, and it's bus system numbering system is extremely difficult to understand.
One of the things Ken Burns' PBS documentary did point out on Wednesday indirectly was that the N.Y.C. one-ride, one-price fare structure is more friendly to the outer boroughs.
D.C.' fare structure, if adopted by the MTA, would result in people living in the Bronx, Brooklyn and Queens spending on average more money that people in Manhattan to use mass transit, since their trips on average would be longer. If you're a politician outside of Manhattan, this is not a real smart political stance to take.
Thanks. Re: WMATA Bus route numering system. I think I may have figured it out. ...Well at least partially.
Virgina and DC/Virginia routes are numbered routes with lettered extentions or branches. Ex 7F, 7W, 28B.
Most DC routes seem to have regular numbers. Ex. 36, 52, 41
Maryland and DC/Maryland routes are lettered with numbered extentions branches. L2, E4, Y6, Q2
Odd numbers are express routes. Ex. Z11, Z29
Wayne
The original system when the system was created was that the letter stood for the avenue of service. An even number was if the route ran full time, an odd number means the route only ran rush hours or part time. The L1, L2, L7, and L8 all run on Conneticut Avenue and are called the Conneticut Avenue and Conneticut Avenue-Maryland line depending on where they run. The L1 and L7 run rush hours only, the L2 and L8 run all the time. In Virginia, the avenue of service is the number and I'm not sure what the letter stands for. Some letter/number designations:
S-16th Street
N-Mass Ave
H-Crosstown
L-Conneticut Avenue
E-Military Road
J-East-West Highway
Q-Viers Mill Road
Z-Colesville Road
1-Wilson Blvd
There are more, I just can't think of them.
MVMs are easier to use, have more options, and ALL sell passes. Let's not forget that they aren't as quarter happy. AND the number one reason the Metrocard Vending Machine beats the WMATA machine, is the fact that they take credit and ATM cards I really support those last two points.
This is Hudson Boulevard-Port Imperial
The next stop on this 7 train will be Kennedy Boulevard-Weehawken
The next stop will be Patterson Plank Road-Tonnelle Avenue
The next stop will be Downtown Secaucus
Hmm, your arguments do not totally convince me that MetroCard is totally better than DC Metrorail farecard system.
(1) I agree with you with free transfer.
(2) Pay-per-mile is pretty fair. The more you travel, the more you pay. Unless you use pass MetroCard, is it fair for people to pay $1.50 to travel from 14 Street to 34 Street, or only $1.50 to travel from Far Rockaway to Manhattan by subway? Pay-per-mile is the trend all over the world.
(3) You say that MVM is better than DC Metrorail farecard machine. Can you say the reasons? I use both of them. Both can provide farecards and passes. We can use either cash or credit cards to pay for them. In my opinion, DC Metrorail farecard machine is as good as MVM. I agree with you that some retailers in NYC can sell Metrocard, but retailers in DC Metropolitan area can't.
At least we can applaude that WMATA begin to install fare boxes on buses that they can accept Metrorail farecards. Maryland's Mass Transit Authority agrees to install the same type of fare boxes on its buses. WMATA is trying to persuade the regional bus systems and Virginia Railway Express to accept DC Metrorail farecards.
Hopefully in the near future, Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit, PATH can also accept MetroCards.
Chaohwa
[At least we can applaude that WMATA begin to install fare boxes on buses that they can accept Metrorail farecards.]
I would assume that they'll take the new "SmarTrip", i.e. smart card ?
Mr t__:^)
Yes, smart cards are also included.
Chaohwa
There's another advantage of the DC system, Smart Cards are cool.
This is Meadowlands Parkway-Harmon Cove
The next and last stop will be Meadowlands Sports Center.
Definatly. The first time I used a paper farecard after a year of only SmarTrip, it was an annoyance to have to put in and take the farecard out of the machine. Maybe when all the buses can accept farecards, the SmarTrip (if not the farecards as well) will remember transfers and bus->subway transfers will be possible.
you ought to see the nightmare in ATLANTA GEORGIA with the M.A.R.T.A.
system there !!!
having to swipe paper cards on the bus !!!!!
and in the rain with soaked paper !!!!!!!
and the RUDE BUS OPERATORS IN ATLANTA insisting you are operating
with an counterfit card when your cheap PAPER CARD dosent work !!
1986 1990 and it sis still going on today !!!!!!!!
SEPTA is looking at a new fare structure in conjunction with the MFL reconstruction and Capital Budget plans.
Smart Cards and the elimination of the token are being considered under all of this.
The older US systems have flat rate fares. Most if not all of the other world systems and most if not all of this nations newest(30-) subways are pay-by-mile as well as regional railways.
I personally don't like the idea of pay-by-mile, but it has it's logic. I would be unhappy if SEPTA instituted pay-by-mile on the CTD.
The problem with pay by mile is, someone who rides the subway instead of driving from Sheepshead Bay refrains from producing as much, if not more, traffic and air pollution as someone who refrains from driving in from Park Slope.
Response to 3: I did not know you can use credit cards and ATM cards in D.C. that invalidates one of the arguments in a parallel message. Also, I was talking about humans in stations as an alternative, but the retailers are good too.
This is Downtown Secaucus
The next stop on this 7 train will be Meadowlands Parkway-Harmon Cove.
As far as (2) is concerned, can you imagine ANY NYC politician even SUGGESTING a distance based fare system? There might yet be ex-politicians sitting in a old age home still smarting from the backlash after the fare was raised from a nickel. If the MTA ever even HINTED at that, the current governor of the time would have the chairman in his office explaining in about two minutes..I mean, there are probabl
While we're on the subject of fare comparisons, I'd
like to point something out.
SEPTA, as you may know, divides it's Regional Rail
commter system into 6 zones and a Center City zone,
each extending about 5-7 miles from the downtown.
Yesterday, I picked up all the new RR schedules, the
R1 holding the most interest because it has a map of
the entire network, all divided into the fare zones.
The map holds a few discrepancies.
Namely some stations are in the wrong zones.
The instances? The R6 stations in Norristown belong in zone 4, not 3. And then Zone 6.
There is only one out of the 153 stations in zone 6, Trenton on the R7, even though about 4 other
stations qualify for this zone(especially West
Trenton on the R3 which goes farther into NJ than
doe the R7.)
A new station recently opened on the R5 past
Downingtown to Thorndale, which belongs in 6 but is
in 5.
My point is this: Why is Trenton the only zone 6
station(which means fares are higher)?
At first I thought it had something to do with the
fact that it's at an Amtrak station, but so are 6
other stations. It's closer to the city than some
other stations, and it's not the only one outside of
the PA. So why?
Pobbibility Trenton is in a lone zone because it is not in Pennsylvania, but in New Jersey
It's not toooooooo terrible. The only price difference between zones 5
and 6 is the one-way offpeak fare. $3.75 for 5, $5.00 for 6. Passes
and peak fares are all the same. (My 10-pack of tickets even has
"zone 5/6" printed on them.)
I'm guessing the offpeak $1.25 is not for Amtrak, or NJTransit, or
the government - it's there to keep Roy Rogers open. (*sniff* think
of how many have closed down!) It's a small price to pay for their
chicken and fries.
Didn't he just say that wasn't it? READ!
West Trenton is also in NJ and is still Zone 5.
Idea: Maybe that want to make an extra buck off the people who take
the train to go to NYC on the weekends?
Look, up in the sky! It's a B-II! No, it's a Blueliner! No, it's
super Bobw!!!
(I'm guessing that this is a job for Bobw)
When the R5 went to Coatsville and Parksburg they were all in Zone 6. I also seem to remember that at terminal stations you can buy ticktes up to Zone 10 or 12. This was for people who wanted to ride from Dowingtown to Doylestown for example.
[Hopefully in the near future, Metro North, LIRR, NJ Transit, PATH can also accept MetroCards.]
Now that is EXTREMELY unlikely, though it would be nice. MN, NJT and LIRR are (roughly) on a pay-per-mile system. They don't use tunstiles, tickets are collected by conductors - so how would they use MetroCard? Equip the conductors with portable MetroCard reading/debiting devices? It would be a lot of expense for very little advantage.
Getting PATH to take MetroCard has been discussed, but nothing has come of it, I don't know why. Probably the MTA and PA can't agree on how to allocate funds if time-based cards are used. Even if only pay-per-ride cards were accepted, it may be that the PA just doesn't want to give up money it collects by issuing its own "QuickCards". Unlike a MetroCard, when a PATH farecard expires (after just 6 months), there are no refunds or transfers of value to new cards. Nice racket - and if you want a monthly 46-rides-for-$40 card, it expires at the end of a single month, no refunds! Also, PATH farecards are inserted into the turnstiles in the opposite direction then MetroCards are swiped (or dipped into bus fareboxes).
The PA and MTA (and NYSTA, NYSBA, DRPA, SJTA, DelDot and soon the NJTPA and NJHA) already collaborate on E-ZPass and Metrocard is used on seven private bus companies.
No one seems to have mentioned the one major advantage of the DC fare system over New York's--the farecards don't expire the way the thieving New York (and Chicago) ones do. You can keep a farecard in your wallet and if you only get to DC every other year, the card is still valid, and the amount left is printed right on the card. BART works that way, too. Currency doesn't expire and the Metrocards should not either. (I'm obviously not talking about unlimited or other commuter cards.)
There's nothing more annoying in NY (or Chicago) than to be carrying a suitcase and wanting to get on the train and discovering that the $10 you paid to put on the card can't be accessed and that you have to stand in a line to do anything about it, provided that it's within a year of your last visit. (Or even worse, to believe the TA when it says to mail an older card to them--trust the TA; they expect people to believe you'll get it back all renewed. They probably sell shares in the bridge near City Hall, too.)
I don't know how the NY Legislature (or the Illinois one, for that matter) allows this kind of thievery to be started or to continue.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
"Or even worse, to believe the TA when it says to mail an older card to them--trust the TA; they expect people to believe you'll get it back all renewed. They probably sell shares in the bridge near City Hall, too."
We discussed this before AD NAUSEUM. When you send a card to the TA they get, I've sent many a card to the TA, for myself or for others and I've never had a problem. I've always gotten my card back and always quickly with a nice explanation note. I also got a credit for an MVM once, $14 check.
All I can say is, it's about fscking time. This was one of the things that really irritated me when I lived in Washington: the Metro and the buses didn't use the same fare system. One of the things I liked about visiting New York then was that I could buy tokens and use them on both the subway and the buses.
-- Tim
Hello! I live in Toronto, Ontario. And we have a subway system that is excellent, with our Toronto subway System when the doors are about to close there will be 3chimes before the doors are closing, back in the old days, when they doors are about to close, the subway guard would blow his whistle, to warn that the doors are about to close! But now the Whistle operation is HISTORY, now we have the door-3chime system!
Why doesn't NYC subway system have that Door-Chime operation, or Whistle operation????
What was neat about the Toronto Subway System (TTC), was that back in the late 80's there were these Gloucester subway cars, they were Steel-bodied and they were 55"long. Anyhow; whenever the Gloucester TTC subway passes over a gap in the third rail, the cabin lights were blink, I thought that was soooo amazing!!!! But unfortunately, these cars were retired in 1990, they first started service on the Toronto System in 1954, until 1990, when they were withdrawn from active service!
I was wondering, can you run different sets of NYC subway cars? Meaning can you put R20's, R-16's and R-42's in a whole subway car? Can you coupled R16's and R-20's together? Can they run in mixed pair, or a single pair?
>>Why doesn't NYC subway system have that Door-Chime operation, or Whistle operation???? <<
Our newer equipment R-44 and up have a "Ding-dong" chime before the doors close. Originally they were set at a 3 second delay after the chime before the doors closed. But the time concious TA decided that cut too much into the on-time performance so now the doors close immediately afetr the Ding-dong. The conductors also make the standard announcement "Stand clear of the closing doors" before they push the door close button. At major stations (Grand Central etc) there are conductors on the platform who are supposed to say the same thing.
>>I was wondering, can you run different sets of NYC subway cars? Meaning can you put R20's, R-16's and R-42's in a whole subway car? Can you coupled R16's and R-20's together? Can they run in mixed pair, or a single pair? <<
That is quite a question and I know I don't have the complete answer to this, but:
We never had an R-20 passenger car but most cars can be put in a whole train. You just can't do much with them. Many of the door control components of the various generations are not compatable. I have seen various make-ups in yard move consists but I am told sometimes on some cars the brakes or some other component has to be disconnected so the car can be moved.
R-12, 14, 15, 17, 21, 22, 26, 28, 29, 33 and 36 cars can and have been
connected in an operating train (note: R-12 thru R-26 cars and maybe some R28's have been retired.
The early R series (R-1 thru R-9) on the IND where operable in trainsets.
On the BMT various types of the early AB standards could be connected but the D types were limited to running in trains of the same cars.
R-40 slant and R-42 cars can be run together but no one would want to.
R-40 Modified and R-42's have been connected. R-32's and R-38's have been connected.
The components of the R-44 and R-46 are too different to operate together.
OK guys, I have had my say - your turn now.
Currently, NYCT Cars range from the R-26 through R-110B. For the moment, let's not talk about revenue service. Speaking from a strictly operational point, All cars from R-28 through R-68A will MU except R-44 and R-46. R-44 and R-46 have different couplers from the rest of the fleet. They are not compatible with each other due to differences in brake systems. R-26 cars use a different electric portion (coupler) so they are not compatible. The R-110A and R-110B are neither compatible with any earlier car nor are they compatible with each other. Any questions?
Will the R-142 be compatible with the R-110A or will it need to be modified to do so?
COINCIDENCE
R-110 is R-11 with a zero added.
This is Brewer Boulevard, change for the E
The next stop on this C train will be Francis Lewis-Springfield Boulevards.
This is Francis Lewis-Springfield Boulevards
The next and last stop on this C train will be Cross Island Parkway.
Originally, all SMEE cars from the R-10s thru the R-42s could operate together, except the R-11s. After the R-11s were rebuilt under contact R-34, they could and did m. u. with other units. As was mentioned earlier, the R-44s and R-46s cannot m. u. with each other (even though they have the same type of coupler), nor with any other equipment.
Mixed consists was the rule for years on the IRT mainlines, but since the R-17s thru mainline R-36s looked very similar, it was no big deal. The R-12s and R-14s originally ran in solid trains on the Flushing line, but after being transferred to the mainlines were always seen intermixed with later cars - but never at the conductor's station. On the IND/BMT lines, solid trains was the rule except for a brief period during the late 60s and early 70s when smorgasbord trains seemed to be running everywhere.
It was a different story with prewar equipment. Generally, cars of a particular fleet were incompatible with anything else. The R-1/9s could and did intermix with each other, but were incompatible with anything else (although I am told they had the same braking system as the BMT Triplexes). Ditto for the BMT standards and Triplexes, which could not run together in the same consist. When the TA bought 30 surplus cars from Staten Island in the early 50s, it was assumed they could m. u. with BMT standards, but as it turned out, they would not do so. On the IRT, it got interesting. Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs could not operate together. There were two other groups of cars, the Flivers (a hybrid Hi-V/Lo-V unit) and Steinway Lo-Vs (geared especially for the steep grades of the Steinway tunnel) which were incompatible with other cars and operated only in solid trains.
Most cars today run in solid trains, although mixed consists are occasionally seen. In the case of the Redbirds on the IRT, their uniform paint scheme gives the impression of a solid train, and in most cases, it is (all R-29s, all R-33s, etc.)
There are also mixed R40M/R42 trains on the J/M/Z and mixed R38/32's on the A/C.
I like uniformity. I wish they'd run solid trains on all lines.
Back in the day, mixed R16/R27-30 trains on the J were not uncommon.
Actually, since the singles on the 7 are R-33 and the married pairs are R-36, you can say that that is a mixed set.
This is Pavonia-Newport, change here for the 12
The next stop will be Grove Street, change there for the 10.
There is this one oddball married pair still around...4460(R40M)/4665(R42).
Is this the only oddball married pair that mixes two car types in the whole NYC system?
On another note, there are some claims that R68s have mixed up with R68As at least very recently on the "N" and "B" lines.
I have not personally heard or seen R62s mix with R62As.
Nick
As far as I know (and I try to stay current with this), R40M #4460/R42 #4665 is the ONLY mixed-contract married pair currently in operation.
Their respective mates were involved in the June 5,1995 Williamsburgh Bridge crash. #4664 was totalled. #4461 was badly damaged, but was deemed repairable - they have since grafted the slant nose of R40 #4260 onto her end - she is to wear #4260 (making her a "him") and has not returned to service yet.
Aside from the 25 "odd couples" in the R32 fleet (list available upon request), there are also two mismatched R33 pairs (#9212/9115 and #9130/9225) and one R36WF pair (#9348/9411). And there are a couple of Slant R40 and R42 mismatched pairs: R40 #4426/4429 and R42 #4684/4727. Also: R44 #5316-5317-5405-5318. (#5319 damaged by fire)
Wayne
How does the Transit Authrority move a train that is stalled completely?I've been on trains that have been taken out of service, or had door problems.I never been on a train that has broken down and cant be moved. Thank You
As long as a train is not on the ground (derailed) there is no train that can't be moved. Your question, however, doesn't lend itself to a quick answer because numerous factors can render a train 'stalled'. The simplest technique is the one that they teach as "the bottom line". in school. Simply, you take the train and sectionalize it. Isolate 1/2 of the train electrically and pneumatically from the other half. Then you test each section and virtually every time you'll find one good section. That section will be used to move the other. However, if all else fails - you add the train behind yours and pust it to the yard.
A couple of times in my 11 years of taking the LIRR the lead set of cars were dead. They put the conductor up front with a flashlight & the engineer drove it from the 3rd car with his head out the window. Kind of reminded me of a steam train.
The TA will empty the train so you don't get to see this operation first hand. Once a #2/3 died between stations. After a while they brought up another train & we walked to the new train. They backed the good train up to the station while they continued to try to get the dead one going again.
Mr t__:^)
Operating from the 3rd car (as you cited in your example) - this was one of the causes of the Roosevelt Ave crash in 1972 ... I thought this wasn't done anymore on the subway. The LIRR may be another story though.
--Mark
The LIRR also has two rescue diesels parked at Harold Tower during rush in case of a stalled trian in the tubes. I assume this is safer then sticking your head out the window in a tunnel >G<.
I've only seen them do it AFTER they exited the tunnel, and of the several times once on Atlantic Ave/Flatbush div & twice on Penn Central div (once at Jamaica, once beyond Jamaica). I've never seen them use those diesels to assist the elect., HOWEVER recently I saw an old diesel pushing one of the new dbl deckers (there was a heigth missmatch !).
Mr t__:^)
It was the cause of the Roosevelt Avenue crash, which occurred in 1970, although other factors were at work, too. The procedures were changed, but if I'm not mistaken, it can still be done under certain circumstances.
That's probably why they are quick to dump the passengers before they do it. I would assume they can also back up a short train, hook up to the bad set of cars, then pull it as a trailer to the yard. They then could drive the rest of the train.
Mr t__:^)
Operating from the 3rd car (as you cited in your example) - this was one of the causes of the Roosevelt Ave crash in 1972 ...
The R-16 wreck on the GG at Roosevelt Ave. occurred in 1970, not 1972. The wrecked train was painted red, not silver and blue. By 1972, all non-stainless cars were silver and blue.
Except for the R-33/36WFs. They held out a couple of years longer, though by then the graffiti had reduced their blue and white design to a pale copy of its 1964-65 image.
"Other than head car operation" did not cause the Roosevelt Avenue crash. What caused that incident was a combination of errors. Primarilly, the man in the middle was an RCI, off duty, on his way to work. He wasn't qualified to flag a train, which was the single largestcause of the accident. Incidently, he was arrested and charged with manslaughter (not tried or convicted). He war relegated to working in the yard for the remainder of his career. From 1985 untill he retired around 1989, he worked for me.
What about utilizing diesels for movement of stalled trains?
-Stef
I suppose that you could use a diesel to move a stalled train except for the logistical problems.
1. Usually several revenue trains are stalled behinf the stuck train. They would need to be moved out of the way in order to get the diesel in place.
2. Diesels are not located strategically around the system for this purpose.
3. Diesels use MCB couplers while revenue cars use H2C or OB couplers so adapters would need to be used (diesels do carry such adapters)
4. Most of the NYCT diesels are 300 HP whereas the average train is around 4,000 HP.
From an efficiency standpoint, it makes more sense to use another revenue train. The only drawback is that after the trains get to the yard, the pusher train cannot be released to service until a draw-bar/shearpin exam is done.
Would this method be followed to isolate / move a train with stuck brakes?
--Mark
Would this method be followed to isolate / move a train with stuck brakes?
Yes, you close off the air lines and retrieve the electric portions
so the two sections are pneumatically and electrically isolated
from each other. Then you operate the brake cut-outs on the dead
section. The brakes are rarely stuck mechanically. Usually stuck
brakes means an electrical or pneumatic problem that prevents the
air from releasing.
Oh, and remember to turn off the COUPLER circuit breaker
on R44/46 cars, right Steve?
How you move a train with stuck brakes is largely dependent on the nature of the problem. If it's one car, then you might be able to BCO the car (Cut the brakes out)and then go normally. If the train has a trainline failure, it then becomes necessary to sectionalize it.
Years ago a train was backed up to our train and we walked through to the good train which took us to 125th (Lexington). Earlier this year on WMATA Metrorail a "good" train behind our "bad" one pushed our train to Union Station. Then both the bad and good trains dischardged it's passengers (one train at a time, of course) and headed to the nearby yard.
Wayne
Another lousy ride home, at the same time, with delays in the same places. An A sat at Chambers for seven minutes. For the two weeks BEFORE the rally things worked great.
Q crawled all the way down 6th Ave, long dwells in station then went local on the Brighton around 6pm tonight.
Thats the T/D who controls if a train Goes local or Express.
Don't forget they don't have a contract either, haven't had one almost two years. YESSSSSS!!!!!
Yes I know most of them are with us.
I see now there are wheel detectors on the SB 6av express track approaching W4 to simply add to everyones general inconvienence. Why not just use Station Time signals....what's the advantage of WD's?
dave
It only added about seven seconds to the overall jump from 34th to West 4th aboard the "Q". I guess wheel detectors have more of an effect than station timers.
Speaking of places where T/Os are prone to speed - did anyone see the little "THINK" signs posted on the N/B Brighton approaching Newkirk Avenue. A new GT's been put there as well, to slow the approach on the downhill grade.
Wayne
I've commented on this previously. Wheel detectors are an over- reaction by the TA. Regular grade timers being utilized for a distance of 600 feet beyond a switch would serve the same purpose and not intimidate a motorman into going 5 MPH thru a wheel detector area.
I agree completely
I don't understand why the M train is so delayed in the mornings on rush hours. This is a very big problem for me because I'm always late for school, and I travel one hour everyday to go to school and work. I think the M line needs alot of improvement! Oh and another thing everyday when I get to Chambers St. to take the M train at about 6:00 this train takes about 15mins. to come and I'm not lying it normally it takes me about an hour to get home but waiting for that M it takes one hour and a half to get home and that is ridiculous don't you think?
The Eastern Division (J/M/L/Z) is the Rodney Daingerfield of the New York City subway system. That may change when the R-143s finally arrive.
Unless the R143 have the same "growing pains" as the R46 and 68 had. Then all well here from L riders is why their line is being neglected with crappy new subway cars when those nice slant R40's get them to work on time every day.
BTW, 212 R143's are on order, yet the L doesn't need that many cars to equip it totally. Any word on where the excess will end up?
The M!
Why not the J?
Speaking of the L, is there any data on whether that line will be converted to ATP?
Annnnnnnnnd.. What is ATP?
"Annnnnnnnnd.. What is ATP?"
Adenosine Triphosphate
He means ATO, Automatic Train Operation.
>>"Annnnnnnnnd.. What is ATP?"
>>Adenosine Triphosphate
>>He means ATO, Automatic Train Operation.
Nope--ATO is when there's a computer driving the train instead of people, which MTA is not currently contemplating. (Except in their darkest fantasies.) ATP stands for Automatic Train Protection or something like that, and it's a new moving-block signaling system to allow greater frequency of trains per hour. TA (sensibly) is planning to test it on the Canarsie Line, since the L is isolated enough from the rest of the system to keep any dramatic failures from affecting other lines--I think during the 2000-04 capital plan, although you can check that document on their site. If it works they'll put it in on the 7, then phase it in systemwide as the signals that have been put in over the last several years reach the end of their useful lives. At that rate, don't look for 45 tph in, say, Montague St. Tunnel before about 2040.
Actually, what the TA talks about is CBTC, Communications Based Train Control.
You can check the Glossary of Terms in the FAQ for any acronyms you're unfamliar with.
Here is how I sum up the Eastern Division
J is for Junk
L is for Lousey
M is for Mediocore, and
Z is for zzzzzzzzz!
"I don't understand why the M train is so delayed in the mornings on rush hours. This is a very big problem for me because I'm
always late for school, and I travel one hour everyday to go to school and work. I think the M line needs alot of
improvement! Oh and another thing everyday when I get to Chambers St. to take the M train at about 6:00 this train takes
about 15mins. to come and I'm not lying it normally it takes me about an hour to get home but waiting for that M it takes one
hour and a half to get home and that is ridiculous don't you think?"
Dear Mara,
Several things you should know. The M is schedule to run every 8 minutes. It mergers with other subway lines (B/J/Z/N/R/). And, any delay on these lines (shown above) causes conflict with the M line.
The N is also notorious for delays. However, unlike the M, it is is also affected by massive over-crowding which makes the ride that much worse.
One way to improve M train service is by writing the MTA. There address can be obtain at their website. On the other hand, you can call (718)234-1234.
N Broadway Line
Recently there opens a new subway line in Taipei. Because I grew up both in New York City and Taipei, I am pretty excited about the new Taipei rapid transit system.
From here on I mention Taipei subway as Taipei Rapid Transit Company's heavy-capacity rapid transit system because TRTC has a middle-capacity rapid transit system which is like an el.
Each Taipei subway's train has 6 cars and the length of each car is 77 feet. The configuration is:
DM1-T2-M3-M3-T2-DM1
DM is a car with full-width cab.
T is a trailer car.
M is a car with only a dispatching unit.
One can move from the first car to the last car freely, but a train can not be separated as two 3-car units.
As for the Metrorail in Washington, D.C., where I am living now, a 6-car train has three two-car units, and each car is 75-foot long. You cannot move one car to another. However, a Metrorail train can be dispatched as a two-car train, a four-car one, or a six-car one.
Which train do you prefer? Also for safety reasons, are Metrorail's trains safer than Taipei's subway trains?
My opinion is that for convenient reasons Taipei subway trains are better because I can move from one car to another to find a seat, and for safety reasons DC's Metrorail trains are better because criminals are restricted in one car.
Chaohwa
Although I can't comment on safety 'cause I have no clue about Taipei's subway, I prefer the 2-car married pairs. This way, a system can run less cars during off-peak hours and maintain the cars not in use. An arguement for the 6-car sets (like 5-car sets in NY) is that the trailer cars are less likely to have anything break down on them, since they don't need all the equipment that the end cars have.
Folks,
Does anyone know where I can get the "Neighberhood Maps" that are posted up in the various subway stations. They have fabulous details of the street areas where the subways are located. I have asked the token booth clerks, but they tell me that the maps are not available to the public.
JB
I'm not happy with the politicization of the fare. It's a straight out choice between the present and the future. The MTA is taking on too much debt as it is.
[ politicization of the fare ]
It started with Mayor Hylan, and is as much a NYC icon as the Statue of Liberty. Maybe more so.
I've noticed other more dramatic increases taken in stride, but I don't see the fare ever being depoliticized.
Part of it I think has to do with the faces I see on the subway; most of them are poor, which brings up once again the question of how to provide a service which serves both them and the middle class who drive the City's economy.
Another consideration from my perspective, is that while I strongly favor investing more in the transit system and making the fare more realistic, the MTA is literally burning money by overstaffing token booths and trains at a time when automated fare collection and OPTO are routine and completely unattended trains are about to be. Everything I've learned about he subways suggests that we could have a much, much better system for what we're currently spending--better safety, faster service, lower headway at all hours, seats even during rush hour, quiet, attractive air conditioned stations, and a start on the Second Avenue subway--if we installed automation on the trains and made fare collection entirely automatic.
The MTA has a 25 year plan of automating.
Also, the MVMs are the last step in the fare automation.
(Save the fare, poor vs. middle class)
Yep, that will take 30 years. As for the problem of the working poor, the subway is cheap even for them. Remember, in most of the country, the working poor have to have a car. The solution is to raise the minimum wage, not to keep down the fare and let the system deteriorate.
Another solution is to raise the fare during peak hours only. Most of the jobs the working poor have are NOT 9 to 5, ie. working in a restaurant or store, loading and unloading, cleaning, doing home care for the elderly, etc. And, or course, the poor are more likely to rely on mass transit for non-work trips. Even if a working poor person is currently scheduled at rush hours, employers might be willing to change schedules to keep inexpensive but valued employees.
Depends on what you mean by deteriorate. It seems to cost about $1 billion/year to keep the system in good repair, and we're spending/doing more than that.
I don't think businesses would ask their employees to come in at odd hours, particularly their poor ones. They wouldn't care. And the truth is many of these employees aren't even covered by the mimimum wage, because they're illegals.
If I were a poor person, I would probably want the cheapest possible service that got me there. A middle class person wants amenities comparable to what he has in his car. And since the poor people scream every time the fare is raised, politicians have historically kept it a bit too low with terrible effects on the system . . . I doubt that's going to change too much, particularly given the fact that commuters receive much higher subsidies than subway riders.
It's a difficult problem, but I think there are solutions. For example, why not provide our current, poverty level of service to all, and make special contributions to stations based on real estate taxes in the service area and station traffic? You'd end up with attractive, quiet, air conditioned stations in prosperous and business areas and at the major transfer points. Take it a step further and devise a formula for high amenity service, with improvements and superexpresses going to the areas that pay the most.
The trick would be to make it seem like an extra fee rather than a redistribution, which might be politically unacceptable. $3 express buses already do this on a small scale.
If all this money wasn't spent on beautification projects, they wouldn't have to hike the fare up again. Do we really need all this fancy tile and floors in the subway, along with murals? Average people don't care what the system looks like. They care about service. They don't want rotten service and a high fare, just as long as its a palace.
Right On, BMT
Right, but the 'look' of the system goes to the peoples perception of it. The cleaner and better looking it is, the safer people percieve it to be, the better the service is percieved to be, and the better the system as a whole is percieved to be.
Which is the first station you'd show a visitor? Chambers St on the Nassau Line, or Brooklyn Bridge on the Lex? How confident in the system would they be after seeing Chambers?
-Hank
This one is a tough call for me. Is it worth investing money in making the stations nice, or should we allow them to look like hell if the savings will allow a lower fare and a better functioning system?
Ie. which is more important in Brooklyn: rehabbing the two most important transfer stations, at Atlantic Avenue and DeKalb, or building the Rutgers/DeKalb connection so there will still be trains to transfer to? Is the station rehab program as a whole more important than updating the signals, etc.
I guess I'd have to go with function over form, with one caveat. We are fighting a perception that winners drive, while losers use mass transit. We may believe that people who like people and care about the environment use transit, but the auto industry spends millions in advertizing to convince people otherwise.
Nice surroundings can make people feel excited and special, lousy surroundings can make people feel depressed. We need riders to help fund our system, and aesthetics help with that. A famous architecture critic once called the NYC subways the most squalid public environment in the United States -- and this was in the 1960s. Besides, when a station is falling apart, it has to be rebuilt anyway, and a few nice tiles only raise the cost marginally.
Nice surroundings can make people feel excited and special, lousy surroundings can make people feel depressed. We need riders to help fund our system, and aesthetics help with that. A famous architecture critic once called the NYC subways the most squalid public environment in the United States -- and this was in the 1960s. Besides, when a station is falling apart, it has to be rebuilt anyway, and a few nice tiles only raise the cost marginally.
This is true. I'm talking about all the nonsensical facelifting on stations that weren't falling apart. Did the Broadway BMT need what it got in the '70s? How about all the IND stations that were redone? Look at Utica Ave. + Fulton St. Look at all the fancy artwork murals at many stations. Community and ethnic pride? I would think that the economically disadvantaged people would benefit better with safer, more reliable service and a lower fare, than artwork murals done by the community. With the exception of the original IRT subway, the NYCTS was never intended to be a showplace. It was intended to get you from point A to point B as quickly and efficiently as possible. Since World War One, tiled walls and concrete platforms were acceptable. Now, all of a sudden, we have to have fancy floors, fancy tile, fancy lighting, murals (I'm thinking mostly about Utica Ave., but this trend is spreading all over). Did we really need to have Fulton and Broad redone in the style of the BMT? It is nice. I have to admit, I am impressed, but it is money thrown out. Then there's 8th Ave. on the 14th St. line. Look at the Brighton line. Was all of that really necessary? I could think of much better ways of spending the taxpayers' money:
-Hold the fare
-Construct new lines (2nd Ave., Rutgers/DeKalb, a tunnel replacement for MB)
-Improve service
-Make it safer-More police, install closed circuit cameras like other modern systems have
-More ADA compliance
If you want to spend money on frivolous things, air condition the stations. Comfort is more important than aesthetic beauty. Just quit wasting money on nonsense!
There's a line somewhere between doing what's necessary and excess. Certainly, the blue and white cinder block scheme for the Broadway BMT lines in the 70s seems to have been done only because the MTA wanted everything back in that era to reflect the agency's color scheme. On the other hand, the refurbishing done on the southbound platform of the J/M/Z at Canal last year was desperately needed, and a rehab job at Chambers is even more important to get into the budget.
It would be great if you could rely on the people running the MTA to design their spending priorities according to real need, but in the wonderful world of public funds allocation, that's not always the case.
There's a line somewhere between doing what's necessary and excess. Certainly, the blue and white cinder block scheme for the Broadway BMT lines in the 70s seems to have been done only because the MTA wanted everything back in that era to reflect the agency's color scheme. On the other hand, the refurbishing done on the southbound platform of the J/M/Z at Canal last year was desperately needed, and a rehab job at Chambers is even more important to get into the budget.
It would be great if you could rely on the people running the MTA to design their spending priorities according to real need, but in the wonderful world of public funds allocation, that's not always the case
I didn't mention Canal or Chambers on the Centre St. Line. If you notice, I mentioned Fulton and Broad. Those stations didn't need a facelift. Neither did Utica on the A or 49 St. + Broadway. Does all this cosmetic crap that they're wasting money on make the system run any better? Of course not.
I hate to tell you this, but in the wonderful world of public funds allocation, that's NEVER the case. Our city and state learned very well from the feds how to waste money.
Making something reasonably attractive is not wasting money. It may not be the highest priority for some or all travellers, but it's nevertheless important; otherwise Grand Central Terminal would have been built to look like the current Penn Station.
Making something reasonably attractive is not wasting money. It may not be the highest priority for some or all travellers, but it's nevertheless important; otherwise Grand Central Terminal would have been built to look like the current Penn Station.
Hear, hear! An article in yesterday's NY Times pointed out that people in Athens, Texas (where brick-bashing victim Nicole Barrett is from) aren't pillorying NYC as a den of iniquity because of the incident. It points out that many of them came to NYC, saw shows, walked around, *RODE THE SUBWAY* and thought it was all great.
Nice-looking stations add to quality of life, which makes customers happy, improves P.R. and improves reputation. People will be more willing to support spending money on a subway they enjoy using.
Personally, I take pleasure in the renovated Union Square station whenever I use it. The lighting is good, the layout is much better, and the old tile revealed in places (like archeology) is a nice concept. (The new tile is so simple it's dull, and I hate the polished granite which is deadly when wet, but hey .... )
OTOH, when I use the 23rd Street Lex station ... UGH. One of the first rehabs in the early '80s, and what a disaster aesthetically. New tile slapped over 2/3 of the station without doing the infrastructural stuff. They've only now, 15 years later, gotten the leaks in the sidewalk above fixed (one of my favorite TA programs, fixing the sidewalk grates so they don't leak).
The points in this thread about QUALITY of work, however, I agree with completely. Some of the rehabs less than 5 years old are starting to age, even the ones that were done "right" from an overall-rehab POV.
Not to mention that ridership will increase, and over the long run that may pay for the stations. And the quality of work will go up. As some people have pointed out, people know when someone takes *pride* in something.
When I was a kid and had my first job working in the maintenance department of a video facility, I never failed to take out the Fantastic and spend a few minutes polishing up a piece of equipment I'd fixed. My feeling was that if it looked good on the outside, people would know that I cared about what it was doing on the *inside*--and would possibly care more about what they were doing as well.
[The points in this thread about QUALITY of work, however, I agree with completely. Some of the rehabs less than 5 years old are starting to age, even the ones that were done "right" from an overall-rehab POV.]
Yeah, that's a real shame. Also, this stuff has to be maintained and treted well. I saw a big irregular concrete patch in one of the new tile floors the other day. Government everywhere seems to renovate things, then let them go to pot.
>>Also, this stuff has to be maintained and treted well. I saw a big irregular concrete patch in one of the new tile floors the other
day. Government everywhere seems to renovate things, then let them go to pot.
Sad but true. Renovation is a capital expenditure--you only have to pay it once. Maintenance you have to pay for every year, and it isn't as sexy on the budget.
This was a big problem when they started rehabbing Central Park with private money (to get back on a favorite hobbyhorse)--people would give tons of dough for very elaborate landscape work, but nobody else would chip in once it was done to keep it in shape, so it started going back to pot. After having to rebuild the meadow at 79th and 5th twice, the CP administrators started requiring donors to endow maintenance trusts before they could get their names on the plaques. Too bad there's no Social Security for public works.
Maybe they should put plaques on things like the seats at some thaters--you know, the Faunces Tibble III wooden bench . . .
Nice-looking stations add to quality of life, which makes customers happy, improves P.R. and improves reputation. People will be more willing to support spending money on a subway they enjoy using.
Tell that to the disabled who can't use the subway because of very little ADA compliance. Tell that to people on the upper east side of Manhattan who have to trek over to the overcrowded Lexington Ave. Line. Tell that to people in the outer portions of Queens who have to take busses to the overcrowded IND. As for quality of life, its meaningless as long as people don't feel safe on the subway. You tell a mugging victim about quality of life and how beautiful the subway is. My entire point throughout this whole discussion isspend money on what is important first, instead of blowing it on luxuries.
BMT: Yeah, but what's "important" differs from person to person, rider to rider, planner to planner, elected official to elected official, railfan to railfan. Each category has different needs, priorities and passions. It is (and should be) a compromise, not an either/or choice. Striking the right balance is a tough call, and not always done right.
In the big picture, I think the public's appreciation of this balance is on target ... look at the pressure (and not just from obscure railfans either) for a REAL 2nd Ave line rather than the stubway. And find me someone who DOESN'T like, appreciate and enjoy the renovated stations.
Plus ... if we're talking $1-6 BILLION for a 2nd Ave line, I doubt that all the decorative parts of the station rehabs (separating out functional improvements) would add up to a dent in that.
Can we end this argument now? [grin]
Plus ... if we're talking $1-6 BILLION for a 2nd Ave line, I doubt that all the decorative parts of the station rehabs (separating out functional improvements) would add up to a dent in that.
2nd Ave. subway or no 2nd Ave. subway, the money could have been put to better use, like better service, ADA compliance, more police---anything but waste. We don't need "pretty" floor tiles and "pretty" murals. Chambers St. on the Centre St. line is crumbling while we powder-puff the newer IND stations. Brilliant! Just brilliant!
Crumbling is putting it mildly. A waste of money was putting brown paint on the ceiling only to have the water come in again and do its dirty work. There's a $40M price tag on the rehab at Chambers Street, I'll bet.
As for myself, have you seen any of the stations you mention BEFORE their overhauls/renovations? Utica Avenue is a case in point. Formerly a shabby, leaky place, they've done a terrific job in making it more attractive. And I'm so happy to see what's going on at 8th Avenue-14th Street - the old IND tile was falling off the wall in places; they've fixed the leaks (I saw them working on one particularly nasty pipe back in June) and now it matches the rest of the Canarsie Line.
I always feel better in a rehabilitated station, especially if it contains some sort of artwork or period furnishings. We have a double-edged sword here, a Gordian knot, a Hobson's choice. Do we improve the underground environment by making aesthetic improvements or do we sink every available buck into expansion and let the rest of it go to pot?
We MUST strike a balance between these two. They are equally important.
Wayne
Do we improve the underground environment by making aesthetic improvements or do we sink every available buck into expansion and let the rest of it go to pot?
We MUST strike a balance between these two. They are equally important.
I agree. What I disagree with is spending on what is not necessary. I think they way overdid Utica Ave. I did say that I was impressed with what they did with Fulton and Broad. I'm just saying that it wasn't necessary. Fix the leaks and replace missing tile, yes, OK. Completely redo a station to make it a showplace, no. I believe in functionality, not frills. What was done along Broadway in the '70's was a total waste. I also indicated that this money spent on frills could have been put toward practical and needed improvements, like ADA compliance. What good is all this aesthetic nonsense, when people confined to wheelchairs and walkers will never get to see it. Also, the money could be spent on security cameras and extra police to make the system safer. Someone else commented that people don't want to ride a dismal-looking subway. Hey, they will put up with a dismal-looking subway sooner than one that they don't feel safe on. So, like I said, its not just expansion.
[Someone else commented that people don't want to ride a dismal-looking subway. Hey, they will put up with a dismal-looking subway sooner than one that they don't feel safe on. So, like I said, its not just expansion.]
But whether it's dismal or not has a lot to do with whether people feel safe on it--probably a lot more than the actual crime rate.
But whether it's dismal or not has a lot to do with whether people feel safe on it--probably a lot more than the actual crime rate.
Maybe so, but I think what people get on TV and the papers affects them more. Also, you can make the subway an underground palace, and if you are mugged, your perception will change in an instant.
[Maybe so, but I think what people get on TV and the papers affects them more.]
Agreed.
{Also, you can make the subway an underground palace, and if you are mugged, your perception will change in an instant.]
Maybe. But how many people actually get mugged? I can think of one adult incident over many years within my entire collection of family and friends, and I've witnessed a grand total of one subway crime in my 35 years of riding the subways. Kind of suggests to me that the most serious risks are to readers of the New York Post.
Not only did they do that (the block-tile with the blue/grey/yellow/orange panels) to the Broadway Line - they did it to ALL of the 4th Avenue-Brooklyn side-platform local stations. Whoever came up with that idea should have been drawn and quartered.
Anyhow, yes, maybe they DID go overboard at Utica Avenue BUT it is a dramatic improvement over what was. They did the same kind of thing (minus the murals) at 33rd Street-Park Avenue South. But still, I always manage to feel better at a station like Utica Avenue. I get the feeling that the other riders feel the same way. Vastly different vibe at Broadway-ENY than at Utica. People walk into Utica and they actually seem like they don't mind being there. I watched a number of folks while I did my photo shoots there.
Wayne
Not only did they do that (the block-tile with the blue/grey/yellow/orange panels) to the Broadway Line - they did it to ALL of the 4th Avenue-Brooklyn side-platform local stations. Whoever came up with that idea should have been drawn and quartered.
I know they also did it to the 4th Ave. subway. I just didn't mention it because, if it hadn't been done, none of us really know how the original tile there would have held up. Thank goodness they didn't do that to the Canarsie Line. Talk about plain and sterile! Yuck! If the TA wants to spend money on frivolous projects, pull down all that '70s crap off the walls of the BMT and restore the stations to what they once were.
They DID in at least one case - at Cortlandt Street. Beneath the blocks they found some of the tile badly damaged so they brought in the tilesmiths (armed with some original photos/sketches) and created one of the first retrofits of original BMT tile. It's a Vickers delight, all right, in cream, Sand yellow, Tuscan red, slate blue, Hunter Green, among other delightful Subway shades.
I would apply the same to 8th Street, Prince Street (AWFUL!), 23rd and 28th Streets. 4th Avenue has some vestiges of the old in spots, enough to make a usable sketch or two from. I'd address these later, perhaps re-doing 9th Street (a transfer point) first.
Wayne
11/23/99
Wayne,
Has anybody mentioned Fifth Ave. on the (N) & (R)? Those hideous block tiles were removed exposing the original tablets and viola!,a first class station rehab. It doesn't look like they went overboard here.
Bill Newkirk
Bill,
I completely forgot that one! The White Tile (and the gold accents) at 5th Avenue are NEW. So are the polar bears, penguins &c. The tile bands, tablets and directional signs are first-class scrubdowns/reglazings.
The did a good job at Lexington Avenue as well, scrubbing the "Lex" plaques free of their coat of dirt and grime. New white tile with red accents went up there as well.
Wayne
I was just using the BMT Broadway line as an example of wasteful spending that also managed to be asthetically plug ugly as well.
Did the MTA need to redo the IRT Brooklyn Bridge station, even though it looks way better today than five years ago? Probably not. Do they need to do something with the adjacent Canal Street station? Definitely yes. I agree Fulton and Broad fall into the same catagory as BB -- a visual improvement but not absolutely necessary.
And as far as the funding goes, if it's like other buracracies, you get X dollars a year to spend in category Y, and if you don't spend that much, you get X-minus dollars the following year. So if the station restoration project (specifically to retile the walls) has this much money, they've got to find somplace to spend it to justify getting that same amount or more next year.
And as far as the funding goes, if it's like other buracracies, you get X dollars a year to spend in category Y, and if you don't spend that much, you get X-minus dollars the following year. So if the station restoration project (specifically to retile the walls) has this much money, they've got to find somplace to spend it to justify getting that same amount or more next year.
Its like I said, our City and State learned very well from the Feds how to waste money. You're absolutely right, though--use it or lose it. And the waste goes on!
It is nice to redo the stations, but are they going to maintain them? Many stations that were redone several years ago are beginning to show neglect- paint peeling, new tiles falling off the walls, floor tiles cracking, etc. Another thing- gluing new tiles to the old ones- when the glue deteriorates in 5 to 10 years, many tiles will begin to fall off- we will once again have stations that look like a disaster hit them. The TA would have done better putting up brick walls like Wall Street and Bowling Green in bright colors that are washable, and wouldn't require the maintenance that tile does. They wouldn't have to worry about loose and falling tiles in the future neither. Many of the redone stations on the "D" and "Q" lines are beginning to fall in disrepair once again!
It is nice to redo the stations, but are they going to maintain them? Many stations that were redone several years ago are beginning to show neglect- paint peeling, new tiles falling off the walls, floor tiles cracking, etc. Another thing- gluing new tiles to the old ones- when the glue deteriorates in 5 to 10 years, many tiles will begin to fall off- we will once again have stations that look like a disaster hit them. The TA would have done better putting up brick walls like Wall Street and Bowling Green in bright colors that are washable, and wouldn't require the maintenance that tile does. They wouldn't have to worry about loose and falling tiles in the future neither. Many of the redone stations on the "D" and "Q" lines are beginning to fall in disrepair once again!
Like I said, a big waste of money. They should have used it to build the 2nd Ave. subway. Even if it would have begun looking shabby by now, at least we would have it.
[Like I said, a big waste of money. They should have used it to build the 2nd Ave. subway. Even if it would have begun looking shabby by now, at least we would have it.]
But that's a $10 billion project--I think we're talking apples and oranges here. Even the new Penn Station will only cost $700 million.
On the other hand, maybe someone can tell me why after the narrow seat fiasco on the IRT they didn't replace the benches? Or why the Port Authority is spending $1.5 billion on a Train to Nowhere, for that matter . . .
"On the other hand, maybe someone can tell me why after the narrow seat fiasco on the IRT they didn't replace the benches?"
Thank god they didn't, those are great benches, in fact, the Redbirds often hold the same number of people on a bench.
Sorry to disagree with you here, but usually you see a whole bunch of squeezed people with one vacant seat, even in a crowded train. If you sit down in the vacant seat you have to wedge yourself in and everybody looks like they're about to kill you. That isn't the case on the redbirds, perhaps because large and small people can slide around to accomodate. And when the bench isn't quite full, the fitted seats force you to squeeze together anyway.
Sorry to disagree with you here, but usually you see a whole bunch of squeezed people with one vacant seat, even in a crowded train. If you sit down in the vacant seat you have to wedge yourself in and everybody looks like they're about to kill you. That isn't the case on the redbirds, perhaps because large and small people can slide around to accomodate. And when the bench isn't quite full, the fitted seats force you to squeeze together anyway.
I agree. I'll take the bench over the fitted seats any time.
You have a point. They should really drop the tile thing, except in the nice historical stations.
Another point--why are they putting in grey floor tiles, rather than black ones which would hide the gum? It's already starting to show up.
Another point--why are they putting in grey floor tiles, rather than black ones which would hide the gum? It's already starting to show up.
The idea is that the smooth gray tiles can have any gum SCRAPED OFF them by station maintenance staff. That's why the spec was for tiles smooth enough to use a razor-scraper -- and why they're so dangerous.
I won't rant here about the time I slipped in the rain and fell down an entire flight of stairs at the 18th Street "1" station. Suffice it to say that I was so banged up (as a healthy 40-year-old man) that I took the day off from work. That tile is *DANGEROUS* in the wet.
As are those bumpy rubber things for the blind people who never use the subway anyway . . .
blind people use the subway. let a miracle help them not fall off a platform.
[blind people use the subway. let a miracle help them not fall off a platform.]
A miracle, or platform doors, which would save how many lives?
Some stations are a disaster waiting to happen, for people blind or sighted.
[Some stations are a disaster waiting to happen, for people blind or sighted.]
I've only heard of one case in recent years in which a blind person fell onto tracks. It happened to a man on the DC Metro, after his guide dog somehow became confused.
Maybe the station had interesting rats zipping between holes like on the #7 . . .
(Brick not tiles)
While brick is better and cheaper in other ways, it's harder to get graffiti off of brick than tile. Just another price we pay due to vandalism.
Good point. So how about something that's smooth and paint resistant, but doesn't craze, crack, and fall off like tiles?
Properly installed tiles won't fall off. No matter how well they are made, however, they will tend to craze with time and are subject to cracking, The better the quality, however, the slower these processes are, and the longer they will last.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They're NOT using the proper Portland Cement when they put up new tile! They're using some stuff called LatiCrete, which MAY have a content of Portland Cement but it isn't the same stuff they used way back when. Case In Point: Some stations' white tile is still fairly intact even after 75 years (example: Montrose Avenue, "L" line). Others fall down (example: Tremont Avenue, "D" line, 64 years).
If they let moisture get in behind the wall, the best-laid tile will fall. They must cement well and grout better.
Wayne
Excellent point :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was thinking of different materials--some of the advanced ceramics, perhaps.
It is nice to redo the stations, but are they going to maintain them? Many stations that were redone several years ago are beginning to show neglect- paint peeling, new tiles falling off the walls, floor tiles cracking, etc. Another thing- gluing new tiles to the old ones- when the glue deteriorates in 5 to 10 years, many tiles will begin to fall off- we will once again have stations that look like a disaster hit them. The TA would have done better putting up brick walls like Wall Street and Bowling Green in bright colors that are washable, and wouldn't require the maintenance that tile does. They wouldn't have to worry about loose and falling tiles in the future neither. Many of the redone stations on the "D" and "Q" lines are beginning to fall in disrepair once again!
The murals are the result of a federal law that says 1% of the cost of any transit-facility construction or rehab project which receives federal funding must go for art. Now 1% isn't much, so it is probably cheaper for the MTA to comply with this law than to try to fight it - and most of the murals do look nice (I love the one of the lions on the 2/3 platform at Penn Station). But it is true that the rehabs don't seem to be directed where they are most needed - the station that probably needs it most urgently is Chambers St. on the J/M/Z, and it isn't getting it, despite the extensive work on the Brooklyn Bridge IRT station it is connected to.
Oh, I love it. We have stations that look like the basement in a tenement, and the Feds say they have to spend 1% on *art!* Why not just take the goddamn money and give it to a museum somewhere?
Hey, do art museums have to spend 1% of their budget on subway signs? How's this: (M) Line Rush Hour--to Monets Evenings and Weekends--take (P) to Picassos and change
Well, if they're going to put *art* in our s---pile of a subway, at least they should put in something nice rather than the incompetent fingerpaintings of schoolchildren. They've defaced a number of nice old stations on the IRT that way.
Hey, how about some elephant dung?
[grin] If there's one thing that generates more passion than transit issues ... it's opinions on art!
LOL
They should put up some of what's his face's photographs, the guys with whips coming out of their behinds . . .
[They should put up some of what's his face's photographs, the guys with whips coming out of their behinds]
Robert Mapplethorpe. Oh, those whips pictures weren't even remotely close to the worst ones he did!
You tell that to Jimmy James Greene, the tilesmith who put up "Children's Cathedral" at Utica Avenue in 1996! That is a charming example of urban art, even if was conceived by children.
I'm not going to get into an art debate here.
The art work at 110th Street IRT and 3rd Avenue-149th Street IRT was NOT done by children; it was done by local artists. And it is quite lovely, thank you very much
LOL!
Wayne
I haven't seen any of those.
Click on this link to see the Utica Avenue collection..
There are photos by Richard Brome and myself of the station and ALL of the mosaic panels.
Enjoy!
Wayne
Bottom line -- I don't care about aesthetics, but lots of other people do, and I want their taxes and fares for the subway. The private sector spends much more on frills such as advertizing and aesthetics -- they make money, the TA loses money, so what does that mean? Got to give the public what they want.
Bring back Miss Subway?
[Bring back Miss Subway?]
I don't think there are women with noses that big anymore.
[A famous architecture critic once called the NYC subways the most squalid public environment in the United States -- and this was in the 1960s.]
Squalid is the word. It's shameful compared to every other subway system I've ever been on. I know people who won't even ride it because they find it too depressing. When I returned here from San Francisco a couple of years ago, it was the one thing in the City that I found shockingly dismal.
So while I agree that to the average subway rider it's not the most important thing--the average subway rider is poor--I can't agree that it isn't important to the middle class residents and commuters the City needs so terribly to attract.
What makes the condition of the stations doubly inexcusable to me (I seem to be using that word a lot this evening) is that just about every office building, store, and domicile above the bodega/sweatshop/tenement level manages to provide decent surroundings.
Which is why I believe we should provide middle class amenities at the stations and transfer points that are used by the middle class.
Squalid is the word. It's shameful compared to every other subway system I've ever been on. I know people who won't even ride it because they find it too depressing. When I returned here from San Francisco a couple of years ago, it was the one thing in the City that I found shockingly dismal.
So while I agree that to the average subway rider it's not the most important thing--the average subway rider is poor--I can't agree that it isn't important to the middle class residents and commuters the City needs so terribly to attract.
What makes the condition of the stations doubly inexcusable to me (I seem to be using that word a lot this evening) is that just about every office building, store, and domicile above the bodega/sweatshop/tenement level manages to provide decent surroundings.
Which is why I believe we should provide middle class amenities at the stations and transfer points that are used by the middle class.
Look at what we have now. Service is horrible. It gets worse as each year passes. We need so much that we're not getting. Our Manhattan Bridge is falling apart. There's been no Broadway service on it in years. If train service is forced to cease on the MB altogether, what will that do to 6th Ave. Brooklyn service? We need the Rutgers/DeKalb connection. Even more so, we need a 4-track tunnel to replace the Manhattan Bridge altogether. The bridge is shot and can't handle train traffic any longer. We are in desparate need of a 2nd Ave. subway. Talk about the middle class? What about the affluent people on the upper east side? They have to walk to an overcrowded Lex. We need expansion of service to the outer portions of Queens. To me, these things are more important than station beautification. The name of the game is Service! Service! Service! Not how pretty we can make our system look.
People are not going to let the appearance of the subway influence their decision to either leave the City or come to the City. What draws people to the City is Jobs and Compensation, not how pretty the subway looks. It's used to get from point A to point B. That is the function of the subway. It is not here for our enjoyment. The subway was not built for us railfans.
I disagree. Amenities and comfort are very important to many people, particularly the middle class. Just check out an office building or a corporate campus--people could do the job in uglier, cheaper surroundings, but do you see them wanting to? No, they spend the extra money, and leave the dismal surroundings for the guys in the basements and on the factory floor.
Our subways drive middle class people away, and that drives businesses away. Transportation is constantly listed as one of the important reasons businesses leave the City. Of course, things like frequency of service and overcrowding are important contributors to that. But part of the whole equation is that by virtue of its dismal basement appearance, noise, and ungodly heat, the system is the closest thing I know to hell.
And while I agree that we need more investment in infrastructure, I think we're talking apples and oranges in terms of the money required--$10 billion or so for a full Second Avenue subway. As I've said the thing that strikes me as inexcusable here is that we aren't doing things in the right order--we should be involved in a major automation program before anything else. Nothing else would increase service or reduce crowding as dramatically across the entire line, not even the (sorely needed) Second Avenue subway. Nothing else would allow us to save the fortune that would help us build needed infrastructure additions. And consider that with automation, the existing tunnels could likely handle the additional load from the Manhattan bridge at much lower cost than building a new tunnel, because throughput would increase so dramatically.
(Make stations for the better off nice, not for the poor).
That would only work if "nice" was confined to unneeded aesthetics, the cost was balanced by an extra fare, and everyone got to decide if the extra fare was worth it. How would you charge more on a montly pass?
It's a difficult issue. Frankly, I get the impression that a lot of it is already going on, though--without making a systematic survey it seems to me that the transfer and business community stations are getting a lot more facelifts than the outlying ones. Knowing the Pataki administration, it wouldn't surprise me if they haven't made a conscious decision to go for the commuter vote.
It would be a delicate balancing act, to be sure, but I think there are ways to pull it off. In limited circumstances, you can offer extra cost super express service like the TA's current $3 express buses--because it's a different type of service, it doesn't come off as a different class of service or a fare increase. You can set up high amenity commuter services using existing commuter tracks and existing infrastructures--the Park Avenue and West Side freight lines, which could be extended downtown for very little money as such things go.
As for the stations, there have been cases of special agreements when new buildings have been built, such as the notoriously small one with Donald Trump. So why not carry that a step further, and make special property based assessments on businesses served by a stop (for all workers) and residences (for people who live in middle class areas)? Make it revenue neutral, by reducing some other tax that hits these groups, say the MTA telephone surcharge.
Or failing that, how about reducing taxes and having businesses contribute to the upkeep of their local stations along the lines of the Grand Central partnership? Or giving tax abatements to local businesses on the condition that they "contribute" such and such an amount to station improvement?
Either that, or just raise the fare (and cut back on waste) until we get something civil--but I don't think that's really right for the poor. I can't imagine that the Pataki administration wouldn't go for something that benefits commuters. The trick would be to make it possible for middle class city residents to enjoy equal benefits.
Not an easy task, I know, and I don't pretend to have all the answers. But the trick I think is to make it seem like people who are already paying more are paying more, and make it complicated enough so that nobody can explain it to anyone else. Seems to me our entire tax system has been based on that sort of stuff for years . . .
[The MTA has a 25 year plan of automating.
Also, the MVMs are the last step in the fare automation.]
I've heard 30 years, but either way it sounds like an inexcusably long time frame to me, given the savings and improvements in service. It seems to me it's the one change that's key to almost everything else.
Or to put it another way, the original IRT was built in 4 years, and the whole system in 40. Five years would be a more than realistic time frame for private enterprise, but since we're talking government make it ten.
We're talking modernizing a system that is in use 24/7. We're talking about a people as a whole that are extremely resistant to change. We're talking about employess who are part of a union that wants to protect current job levels, and if possible, increase them.
-Hank
Sadly, and inexcusably, enough. Only the 24/7 argument seems weak to me; an efficient operation would zip right around it with good planning, teamwork, and some late night service changes.
As to the union, I'd go full steam ahead on the automation, and make it very, very clear to them that I intend to protect their livelihoods--but not their current jobs. If they were at all smart, they'd fall into line, because it will be *very* easy to deal with a strike once the system is automated.
It seems to me the right way to look at automation is to ask what would happen if the system were privately owned. From that perspective, it's a complete no brainer.
As to the union, I'd go full steam ahead on the automation, and make it very, very clear to them that I intend to protect their livelihoods--but not their current jobs. If they were at all smart, they'd fall into line, because it will be *very* easy to deal with a strike once the system is automated.
It seems to me the right way to look at automation is to ask what would happen if the system were privately owned. From that perspective, it's a complete no brainer.
Its also a no-brainer operating an automated train. Push the button, the train goes, until it automatically comes to a stop at the next station. All a T/O would have to do is open and close the doors, make announcements and push the start button at every station.
"All a T/O would have to do is open and close the doors, make announcements and push the start button at every station."
You'd only have to close the doors, closing them already acknowledges readiness to go. And the announcements are ALREADY automated.
You'd only have to close the doors, closing them already acknowledges readiness to go. And the announcements are ALREADY automated.
They could get a staff of chimps to do that!
Are they? I didn't know that.
In terms of where our new equipment is. All the older equipment would obviously be scrapped before any automation, and the R-110 and R-142 already have automated announcements.
[All the older equipment would obviously be scrapped before any automation, and the R-110 and R-142 already have automated announcements.]
I'm not sure it would have to be. If you're talking state of the art high speed stuff with electronic speed control and track brakes, well, yes, you'd probably have to get rid of or massively rebuild everything, but if you're just trying to save labor and get rid of the block system it might make sense to retrofit cars that had more than a few years' life left in them; that's one of the things that could make the transition economical.
With retrofiting, then it's possible to add auto anouncements too.
[With retrofiting, then it's possible to add auto anouncements too. ]
Sure, why not?
automation don't just have to be a labor saving tactic. laborors can run an automated system.upcoming R-142's will not save labor, they'll just make it easier.
And they can make it faster, too, if they replace the old block signal and reduce headway.
What's this about opening and closing the doors and pushing the start button?
Seriously, there would be a transitional phase, but eventually a modern automated subway works like an elevator. One of the advantages of it is that you have walls and doors separating the stations from the tracks, making the system safer, quieter, cleaner, more attractive, and easy to air condition.
... a modern automated subway works like an elevator. One of the advantages of it is that you have walls and doors separating the stations from the tracks, making the system safer, quieter, cleaner, more attractive, and easy to air condition.
Worth noting that on the new chunk of London's Jubilee Line that opened this weekend, there are clear glass walls at the edge of the platform. (At least the plans I saw had this.) The cars line up to the door openings, and both car doors and platform-edge doors open and close simultaneously. Prevents passengers from falling/being pushed onto tracks.
I'd think that keeping all that plate-glass clean -- esp. on the track side -- will be something of a management challenge, however. Comments from our London SubTalkers?
The new London line looks beautiful, and they say it will increase throughput by something like 50% once the automation goes into effect. I did wonder about the 3 second opening time of the electric doors, though--seems kind of slow.
As for keeping it clean, what about a big window cleaning car? Squirt it on and squeegee it off with a giant squeegee. And there would be big maintenance advantages--no trash to catch fire, no bodies to scrub off . . . otherwise, you'd probably want to use smoked glass to hide some of the grunginess of the tracks, and that would reduce the dirt problem; inside the stations the problem of keeping the glass and the tile clean would be one and the same.
While they're at it, how about automating trash collection? Something with arms to retrieve the receptacles and dump them.
Josh, you're spending too much time on the NET. Some of us want someone there in the station, and on the train. You can only program so much -- people are much better able to respond to situations.
The big money is in cutting down on the number of conductors on the commuter railroads. As TA productivity has risen, we're now having to subsidize that featherbedded mess.
[Josh, you're spending too much time on the NET. Some of us want someone there in the station, and on the train. You can only program so much -- people are much better able to respond to situations.
The big money is in cutting down on the number of conductors on the commuter railroads. As TA productivity has risen, we're now having to subsidize that featherbedded mess.]
Put people where you need them--for security, for safety, whatever--but I think most people would much rather have speedy, safe, modern, comfortable trains that go where they want, or a lower fare, than waste money on people who make no more sense today than elevator operators.
One doesn't have to go very far to see that subways today are moving to automated trains, OPTO, unattended stations, and in the case of London, complete automation. Our subways on the other hand are hugely overstaffed. That's an immense chunk of the budget. Would you rather have someone to give out occasional directions and get yelled at for having no maps, or a fast, safe, comfortable, attractive, quiet, cool ride, with a Second Avenue subway and other needed extensions? Would you rather have two minute headway service at 3 AM in a remote area, or 20 minute headway service with two guys sitting in the cabs? A seat during rush hour on an automated train, or a sardine slot on a more dangerous attended one? We can't have these things while we're paying people to do useless jobs, whether they're on the subways or the LIRR.
While we're at it lets get rid of all human interaction. After all we're close to the 21st century, the one with Hal the Robot, etc.
Hell, I like conductors, both on the subway and the LIRR. I also like people working in the stations, etc. Believe it or not, I'm sure you don't but I actually would rather hear a human voice tell me my next stop than a computer voice. And if someone asked me if I'd rather be on a subway with glass between the platform & the tracks with double opening elevator type doors OR an R1 or a gate car believe it or not I'd pick the old stuff every time. I guess I'm a big minority here in this forum!!!!
Hell, I like conductors, both on the subway and the LIRR. I also like people working in the stations, etc. Believe it or not, I'm sure you don't but I actually would rather hear a human voice tell me my next stop than a computer voice. And if someone asked me if I'd rather be on a subway with glass between the platform & the tracks with double opening elevator type doors OR an R1 or a gate car believe it or not I'd pick the old stuff every time. I guess I'm a big minority here in this forum!!!!
I like the old stuff also. I'd like nothing better than to be able to go back to the 1930's and ride all the els that I never got a chance to ride, along with all the old subway equipment. I wouldn't mind if it were 1899 instead of 1999. But we have to face the realities. It is 1999. We will be in the 3rd Millenium, the 21st Century in a little more than 2 months. We need to go with the flow and the great technological leaps that we as a society are making. I remember when nothing or nobody could have gotten me to use computers and love it. Now,I'm an internet junkie that literally would suffer withdrawl without it. Heaven help me if Y2K causes the internet to crash! I need my fix online more than I do the trains. That's bad!
I'm not a luddite, but the elevator analogy only goes so far. The trains, signals, stations can all be automatically operatated AS LONG AS NOTHING GOES WRONG. But what if someone pulls the cord, or the brakes go BIE, or a dangerous looking character is hanging around the station, or someone wanders onto the tracks, etc. Subways are full of unpredictable people. And if a train goes down, 300,000 people are affected until it gets moving again, so dispatching someone from headquarters won't do. That's why you have pilots in airplanes even though the automatic pilot generally flies the plane.
Yes, automation can reduce the number of people the TA employs. I believe you can go to OPTO, have fewer tower operators, and have fewer station agents than token booth clerks over time. Perhaps more progressive management/labor relations will also allow a big reduction in the number of middle managers, and better-designed systems will cut down on the need for maintenance staff.
But the subway system is full of unpredicatable people, and no machines are foolproff. That's why there must be one employee on every train, on every bus, and in every station, even if only for "just in case."
[I'm not a luddite, but the elevator analogy only goes so far. The trains, signals, stations can all be automatically operatated AS LONG AS NOTHING GOES WRONG. But what if someone pulls the cord, or the brakes go BIE, or a dangerous looking character is hanging around the station, or someone wanders onto the tracks, etc. Subways are full of unpredictable people. And if a train goes down, 300,000 people are affected until it gets moving again, so dispatching someone from headquarters won't do. That's why you have pilots in airplanes even though the automatic pilot generally flies the plane.
Yes, automation can reduce the number of people the TA employs. I believe you can go to OPTO, have fewer tower operators, and have fewer station agents than token booth clerks over time. Perhaps more progressive management/labor relations will also allow a big reduction in the number of middle managers, and better-designed systems will cut down on the need for maintenance staff.
But the subway system is full of unpredicatable people, and no machines are foolproff. That's why there must be one employee on every train, on every bus, and in every station, even if only for "just in case."]
These are valid issues, but I'm not sure that they're best handled by having someone in place. And most of them can be handled by automation or in the worst case specialized dispatches.
Anyway, if we're really concerned about a few crazies who wander onto the tracks (as opposed to the crazies who wander onto superhighways or jump off bridges), automation can allow us to save more lives that operators, who typically can't stop the train in time to do much good. It's very easy to detect people or objects on the tracks, and the computer can stop the train before a disaster occurs. In a later stage of the automated system, when the platforms are separated from the tracks, you're saving lives--those people who are pushed onto the tracks, bums who get electrocuted, what have you. In fact it seems to me that in some overcrowded/low clearance areas the current sytem is unacceptably dangerous as it is.
Emergency brake--intercom is activated by the cord that has been pulled, the person who pulled it is queried, if there's no response the brakes are reset automatically and the train restarts; if there is a response appropriate action is taken, whether it's calling an ambulance or taking the train out of service.
Dangerous character--agreed, but as in the case of Bratton-style policing this is best handled by patrolling where trouble is apt to occur than by having fixed personnel hanging about. That's better for everybody because it makes better use of finite resources. The clerks can't see most places in the station anyway, and if somebody needs help, cameras and intercoms are a better way for bystanders to reach the appropriate authortities than a token booth is.
But he truth is I was in two unattended PATH stations today, and as usual they were just fine in every respect.
Service problems--there's a very narrow margin between what a train crew can handle that an automated sytem can't. An automated sytem can discharge passengers if a train has to be taken out of service, can push other trains, etc. No, it can't handle a derailment or a mad slasher, but then neither can a conductor.
My greatest concern about completely unattended train operation is what would happen in the case of a fire and a train that's stuck simultaneously. But why not have a foolproof escape system, with robust communications, guidelights, automatic power cutouts and door interlocks? Something like that would I think improve safety in such situations rather than diminishing it.
Overall, I think that a properly designed automated system would improve safety and reliability, not the other way around.
Overall, I think that a properly designed automated system would improve safety and reliability, not the other way around.
I agree 100%. As for unattended stations, all they really need is cctv and armed security with 2-way radio. Any problems, either with security or an operational problem can be handled by them. They can call police if they are unable to handle a crime situation, or call command center for any operational malfunction. At least 1 guard at each station at all times. Stations like Union Sq. would have 3 (1 on the L, 1 on the N&R and 1 on the 4,5,6. One on each train 24/7 might niot be a bad idea either.
[I agree 100%. As for unattended stations, all they really need is cctv and armed security with 2-way radio. Any problems, either with security or an operational problem can be handled by them. They can call police if they are unable to handle a crime situation, or call command center for any operational malfunction. At least 1 guard at each station at all times. Stations like Union Sq. would have 3 (1 on the L, 1 on the N&R and 1 on the 4,5,6. One on each train 24/7 might not be a bad idea either.]
And it may not really be necessary. For example, most people feel safe in stations where there are lots of other people around. It seems to me that guards should go where crime is, Bratton style.
I think we should also see multi-mode employees. Why not have the same people clean stations, guard them, police door holders during busy periods, etc., depending on what the need is?
"We will be in the 3rd Millenium, the 21st Century in a little more than 2 months."
You mean fourteen months.
Actually, according to my calculations, the third millenium was about three millenia ago - we're well into the sixth at this point.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"We will be in the 3rd Millenium, the 21st Century in a little more than 2 months."
You mean fourteen months.
How do you figure fourteen months. It is already 11/23/1999. In exactly 38 days, it will be 1/1/2000--the Twenty-First Century, the Third Millenium. I stand corrected, its not a little more than 2 months, its a little more than one month. How do you figure 14 months?
Well, the Romans had no concept of the zero. So, there was no year 0 and therefore year 100, which you would think was the beginning of the second century, was actually the last year of the first, it was the hundredth year after all. It continues from there, decades, millennia, myriadia. If we were to count decades by sequence and not by penultimate digit, then 1990 would not be considered part of this, the 200th decade, but 2000 would be.
Well, the Romans had no concept of the zero. So, there was no year 0 and therefore year 100, which you would think was the beginning of the second century, was actually the last year of the first, it was the hundredth year after all. It continues from there, decades, millennia, myriadia. If we were to count decades by sequence and not by penultimate digit, then 1990 would not be considered part of this, the 200th decade, but 2000 would be.
Our modern calendar is based on the Roman or Julian calendar. The current calendar that we use is the Gregorian calendar, but it was based on the Julian calendar. Our modern Gregorian calendar starts with year 1. That was the beginning of the first century and the first millenium. If you follow that all the way up, that's why the 1900's are the twentieth century. Hence, in 37 days, we enter the twenty-first century and the third millenium.
Hate to burst your bubble, but ... you burst it yourself. Read your own logic again. The first century of the Gregorian and calendar began with the year 1, so the 20th century began in 1901 and the 21st in 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hate to burst your bubble, but ... you burst it yourself. Read your own logic again. The first century of the Gregorian and calendar began with the year 1, so the 20th century began in 1901 and the 21st in 2001.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No. Years 1 through 99 are the first 99 years. The hundredth year marked the beginning of a new century. Year 100 was the beginning of the 2nd century. 1900 was the beginning of the 20th century, and 2000 is the beginning of the 21st century. If you ring in the 21st century and the 3rd millenium a year late, people will think you're nuts. I didn't invent the calendar, I just live by it.
Sorry. A Decade is 10 years. The year 1AD through 10AD were TEN years. A century is 100 years. Therefore year 1 through year 100 are the first entury. The year before 1AD was 1 BC. There was no Year 0- meaning a person born in 1BC who died in 10 AD would be 11 years old at death.
Sorry. A Decade is 10 years. The year 1AD through 10AD were TEN years. A century is 100 years. Therefore year 1 through year 100 are the first entury. The year before 1AD was 1 BC. There was no Year 0- meaning a person born in 1BC who died in 10 AD would be 11 years old at death.
If you and Anon_e_mouse want to celebrate the new millenium in 2001, go right ahead and be my guest. I'm tired of arguing about it.
This is a common logic error in computer programming..we call
it the "fencepost" syndrome or "off-by-one".
A century is inarguably 100 years, and a millenium likewise
1000 years. The calendar by which we live began counting at
January 1, 1. The first decade was
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10
ten years. It ended on December 31, 10. The second decade
began on January 1, 11. The 1900s end on Dec 31, 1999, but
the 20th century, and the second millenium, do not end until
Dec 31, 2000. Clarke got it right....the movie was NOT called
2000...A Space Odyssey.
Everyone understood and accepted that the new millenium begins
at 2001 until a few years ago, when all this BS about the
Y2K apocalypse was thrust into the media spotlight. In fact,
until about 2 years ago, responsible reporters were reminding
their viewers/readers/listeners of the correct interpretation.
However, everyone seems to have bowed under to peer pressure and
decided that it begins at 2000 because that's when the pretty
digit cascade rollover happens. Truly, we live in the digital age!
[This is a common logic error in computer programming..we call
it the "fencepost" syndrome or "off-by-one".]
Agreed--a clear sign of the computer nerd. One does not start counting at zero, one starts *measuring* at zero. Big difference. Even mathematicians sometimes get this wrong, as one did in a recent op ed article in the Times.
Best way I know of to think of it: a six month old baby is in year one of his life. He is born at zero, and becomes one year old at one, but he's in the first year of his life when he's six months old.
The numbers on the years, centuries, and millenia refer to the number of the annual interval we're in, not the number of annual intervals that have elapsed, which would be offset by one. On January 1st, 2000, we'll be in the 2000th year and the second millenium--but 1999 years will have elapsed since January 1, 1.
The numbers on the years, centuries, and millenia refer to the number of the annual interval we're in, not the number of annual intervals that have elapsed, which would be offset by one. On January 1st, 2000, we'll be in the 2000th year and the second millenium--but 1999 years will have elapsed since January 1, 1.
2000 will be the third millenium, not the second:
1-999 is the first,
1000-1999 is the second,
2000-2999 is the third.
Thank you for clearly explaining this. Now, maybe those 2001 people will clearly see that we are going into the new millenuim in a few weeks, not a year.
"2000 will be the third millenium, not the second:
1-999 is the first,
1000-1999 is the second,
2000-2999 is the third.
Thank you for clearly explaining this. Now, maybe those 2001 people will clearly see that we are going into the new millenuim in a few weeks, not a year."
Once again you are wrong, a millenium is 1000 years, so:
1-1000 is the first
1001-2000 is the second
2001-3000 is the third.
You were the one who tried to "explain" this, Josh Hill said nothing to reinforce your theory, held only by those who don't know any better, in fact what he says detracts from it.
Fine. I guess New Years Day 2001 will be a big one for you. Its a free country. You're entitled. You, Anan_e_mouse and Subway Buff@mindspring.com. I'm going with the rest of the world. This New Years Day (2000) is the one I'll recognize as the millennial change.
You can continue to recognize 2000 as the Millennial change and continue to be wrong. I don't care about the Millennium, it's stupid. I'm going to celebrate 2000 as the odometral incrementation. Most people can't realize you can do that and continue to think of 2000 as the "Millennium."
You can continue to recognize 2000 as the Millennial change and continue to be wrong. I don't care about the Millennium, it's stupid. I'm going to celebrate 2000 as the odometral incrementation. Most people can't realize you can do that and continue to think of 2000 as the "Millennium."
Aren't you contradicting yourself? First you say that the new millennium begins on 1/1/2001 and now you're saying that "you can think of 2000 as the Millennium." I've been saying all along that the new millennium begins at midnight 1/1/2000. Would you please explain exactly what you mean by You can continue to recognize 2000 as the Millennial change and continue to be wrong. I don't care about the Millennium, it's stupid. I'm going to celebrate 2000 as the odometral incrementation. Most people can't realize you can do that and continue to think of 2000 as the "Millennium." I would once and for all like to lay this thread to rest, but first I need to know what you're trying to say, here.
Read a learned discussion of When The New Millennium Begins. Or, if yer a Brooklynite like me, it's a loin-ed discusssion. OK, perfessor?
But lets put a transit spin of this. What was the number of the first R-1? The first BMT Standard? The first Triplex? Anyone get my drift?
What was the number of the first R-1?
100.
The first BMT Standard?
This one I'm not so sure. Was it 2200?
The first Triplex?
6000, I think?
--Mark
Sounds right to me.
The first BMT Standard was 2000, not 2200. The R-1 (100) and the D (6000) numbers are right.
But wasn't the point of the question to indicate the difference between how you count calendar years and how to figure the number of cars in a series?
When Dionysius Exiguus did the current numbering in the sixth century of our calendar, he did make a mistake, and, as others have mentioned, it is off by as many as seven or eight years. But his calendar started with a presumed year '1,' but he was living in the 500s, so no one in the first centuries of our calendar even thought about the question. Subway car series, on the other hand, usually started with '0.'
Thus, 2000-2099 was the first hundred or 'century' of Standards while 1 through to and including 100 is the first hundred or 'century' of years in the Common Era calendar.
Trying to remember how many cars of any type has always been a bit confusing--the BQT PCCs were 1000-1099 (100 cars); part of the R-10 order was 3000-3349 (350 cars); Triplexes were 6000-6120 (121 numbers but 242 cars, to confuse things even further).
(Side note: The current dating system was not developed until the sixth century--until then, all kinds of calendars were in use, the most common in the West being the Roman. Under the Roman, Jesus was born in the year 752 or 753 from the traditional founding of Rome--our current year is 2751 in the Roman calendar. And our calendar's year-number designations have only been changed on 1 January in recent centuries--in the US, the shift from 25 March to 1 January to change the year number wasn't until 1752.)
Sorry for the digression--I had hoped that this one part of my life wouldn't digress into topics like calendars.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Are you saying that the first day of the year used to be a few days after the equinox and was then called March 25; or was it a few days after the equinox, then called January 1 but now called March 25 after the shift from the Julian to the Gregorian. In other words, did the year start at the beginning of Spring or the beginning of Winter.
The year started on March 25th and ended on March 24th. Viz the following example: what we now consider as March 22, 1679 was known at the time as March 22, 1678 and is often noted by historians as March 22, 1678/9. (This particular date was chosen because it caused my father and I no end of frustration in trying to establish the age at death of one of my ancestors - we didn't know about the change in reckoning of the year.)
Following on another note, in 1752 the English adopted leap year and adjusted the calendar further. Although we celebrate George Washington's birthday as February 22, according to the calendar in effect at the time of his birth he was born on February 11.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Following on another note, in 1752 the English adopted leap year and adjusted the calendar further.
Although we celebrate George Washington's birthday as February 22, according to the calendar in
effect at the time of his birth he was born on February 11.]
"Adopted leap year" is not an accurate description of the 1752 calendar change. They adopted the Gregorian rules for leap years, namely that a year is a leap year
1) if it is divisible by four, UNLESS
2) it is divisible by 100, BUT
3) is a leap year after all if divisible by 400.
Thus 1800 and 1900 were not leap years, but 2000 will be.
Previously, the Julian or "Old Style" calendar (abbreviated O.S.) followed the simple rule of a leap year every 4 years. The result was that the average length of the year (365.25 days) was too long. Our Gregorian calendar (in documents from the time of the change referred to as "New Style" or N.S.) has an average year length of 365.2425 days, which is still 26 seconds too long.
The most accurate system would be to omit one leap year every 128 years (rather than 3 every 400). That is, have 31 cycles of three common years and one leap year, followed by one cycle of four common years. With today's population used to thinking of power-of-two numbers like 128 as "round numbers", this is not such an outlandish proposal as it might once have seemed. It would result in a civil year that differed from the true astronomical year by only a single second - 26 times better accuracy than today's calendar. The average year length would be one second short - but add a "leap second" at the end of the year, as is often done today, and you have perfect to-the-second accuracy.
They changed the leap year rules again jusr recently. Its every 4 years, except years that end in 0. So 2000 will not be a leap year.
Actually, 2000 IS a leap year. I've recently been involved in some Y2K issues because a major database system considered it 02-29-2000 an invalid date.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They changed the leap year rules again jusr recently. Its every 4 years, except years that end in 0. So 2000 will not be a leap year.
If you're right, then somebody better tell Bill Gates about it. I just checked my Windows 98 calendar for Feb. 2000. It has 29 days. Microsoft will have to come out with a downloadable fix for it.
[They changed the leap year rules again jusr recently. Its every 4 years, except years that end in 0. So
2000 will not be a leap year. ]
Was this statement made seriously, or was it a deliberate attempt to misinform people?
At the risk of repeating the obvious, it is FALSE. 100% false.
2000 will be a leap year. Unless the calendar (or the earth's rotation or orbit) are changed between now and 2100, so will 2004, 2008, etc., a leap year every four years through 2096. 2100 A.D. will not be a leap year.
I wasn't trying to misinform people, I saw this on the news or read about it somewhere. They said that leap years were shaving off too much time so they needed to skip every 10th one or so.
I was away from e-mail for most of last week so didn't get a chance to get back to reading some of the threads. Sorry if I'm dredging up a tired subject again.
England and the English colonies (like those in North America, such as New York and Georgia) used 25 March as the start of their year. Thus, if you went to sleep on 24 March 1750, when you woke up in the morning, it would be 25 March 1751--the year changed at that time. The reason the change occurred on that date was because it was the traditional church feast of the Annunciation, the conception of Jesus, which is calculated exactly nine months back from Christmas Day. And the English thought that such a date was extremely appropriate. BTW, there is also a long tradition that 25 March was the date of the Crucifixion.
The notion of the year number changing at a time other than 1 January isn' that strange--look at all of the different fiscal years we live with, as well as membership years, school years, and the like.
The first month of the Roman year, by the way, was March, which is why the months from September through December have the 7-8-9-10 numbers in their names, even though we don't observe them in order any more.
Somebody asked why the churches weren't able to get rid of the pagan weekday names--in the Latin church, they did--Sunday was the 'Lord's Day,' as in the romance languages (Dimanche and Domingo, for example), Saturday was the 'Sabbath,' and the weekdays were each called a 'Feria,' numbered second (for Monday) through sixth (for Friday).
With this, I'm snipping my part of the thread; if anyone wants to continue it, just e-mail me directly.
And now back to transit.
Since we're speaking of calendars, I finally got my NYC subway calendars at the train show in Albany on Sunday; also found LIRR, San Francisco Streetcars, Philadelphia Rapid Transit, and some other unelectrified railroad calendars. A while back, I had gotten the NYC streetcar one. So the house will have lots of transit pictures as I go from room to room.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The reason the [year in English-influenced areas began March 25] was because it was the traditional church feast of the Annunciation, the conception of Jesus, which is calculated exactly nine months back from Christmas Day. And the English thought that such a date was extremely appropriate.
I think this is yet another example of traditional dates/feasts being attributed to later religious motives, or even more directly, later religions make conversion more comfortable by having an "approved" holy day at the same time as the former pagan one.
In many traditional cultures (and in Rome) the year begins, logically, with the onset of Spring. Likewise, Christmas just happens to fall at the right time for the Winter Solstice celebrations.
Historians now believe that Jesus was likely born in the Spring. And it is all but certain he was not born at the beginning of the year one.
I was away from e-mail for most of last week so didn't get a chance to get back to reading some of the threads. Sorry if I'm dredging up a tired subject again.
England and the English colonies (like those in North America, such as New York and Georgia) used 25 March as the start of their year. Thus, if you went to sleep on 24 March 1750, when you woke up in the morning, it would be 25 March 1751--the year changed at that time. The reason the change occurred on that date was because it was the traditional church feast of the Annunciation, the conception of Jesus, which is calculated exactly nine months back from Christmas Day. And the English thought that such a date was extremely appropriate. BTW, there is also a long tradition that 25 March was the date of the Crucifixion.
The notion of the year number changing at a time other than 1 January isn' that strange--look at all of the different fiscal years we live with, as well as membership years, school years, and the like.
The first month of the Roman year, by the way, was March, which is why the months from September through December have the 7-8-9-10 numbers in their names, even though we don't observe them in order any more.
Somebody asked why the churches weren't able to get rid of the pagan weekday names--in the Latin church, they did--Sunday was the 'Lord's Day,' as in the romance languages (Dimanche and Domingo, for example), Saturday was the 'Sabbath,' and the weekdays were each called a 'Feria,' numbered second (for Monday) through sixth (for Friday).
With this, I'm snipping my part of the thread; if anyone wants to continue it, just e-mail me directly.
And now back to transit.
Since we're speaking of calendars, I finally got my NYC subway calendars at the train show in Albany on Sunday; also found LIRR, San Francisco Streetcars, Philadelphia Rapid Transit, and some other unelectrified railroad calendars. A while back, I had gotten the NYC streetcar one. So the house will have lots of transit pictures as I go from room to room.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Since the millennium celebration translates to big bucks in the business world I'm willing to bet there is a very big celebration on both New Year's Days. All the companies that make alot of money taking advantage of the millennium this coming New Years will suddenly come to the realization that 2001 is the millennium and do the same things next year!!!
Since the millennium celebration translates to big bucks in the business world I'm willing to bet there is a very big celebration on both New Year's Days. All the companies that make alot of money taking advantage of the millennium this coming New Years will suddenly come to the realization that 2001 is the millennium and do the same things next year!!!
I don't think so. How many times can they keep milking the same cow? We'll all see in 13 months.
I'm not contradicting myself. I didn't proofread my message, that was supposed to read:
Most people can't realize you can do that and continue to think of 2001 as the "Millennium."
I'm not contradicting myself. I didn't proofread my message, that was supposed to read:
Most people can't realize you can do that and continue to think of 2001 as the "Millennium."
You made a BIG typo. You put Most people can't realize you can do that and continue to think of 2000 as the "Millennium."
Anyway, I'd like to lay this thread to rest. When it got started, I wasn't even writing about the millennium. If I remember correctly, I was replying to someone who thought that the NYCTS could never go ATO. Its wierd how threads seem to evolve as SubTalkers go off on tangents. Oops, I hope I didn't start another one!
[You were the one who tried to "explain" this, Josh Hill said nothing to reinforce your theory, held only by those who don't know any better, in fact what he says detracts from it.]
The whole argument is kind of moot anyway, since it's generally accepted that the church accidentally left a few years out when they numbered the years. Jesus was born in either 4 or 6 BC (I may have remembered those dates wrong), so we actually entered the third millenium a few years ago.
The whole argument is kind of moot anyway, since it's generally accepted that the church accidentally left a few years out when they numbered the years. Jesus was born in either 4 or 6 BC (I may have remembered those dates wrong), so we actually entered the third millenium a few years ago.
I totally agree. All this nit-picking over what? I'm going with the flow, with the rest of the world - 1/1/2000. BTW, as for when Jesus was born, most modern Christian theologians don't think Jesus was born on December 25. Fact is, nobody ever knew what day of the year Jesus was actually born. Some theologians speculate that Jesus may have been born around the time of the Jewish New Year. December 25 was taken from a pagan feast day to the Roman god Saturn. The Christmas tree also has pagan origins.
December 25 was also celebrated as the Winter Solstice.
Eugenius D. Train @metrocard.cjb.net (qwertyuiopasdfghjklzxcvbnm@metrocard.cjb.net), what happened to Eugenius D. Train of Royal Island?
That became old, I changed the suffix. I also wanted to advertize my site.
[I totally agree. All this nit-picking over what? I'm going with the flow, with the rest of the world - 1/1/2000. BTW, as for when Jesus was born, most modern Christian theologians don't think Jesus was born on December 25. Fact is, nobody ever knew what day of the year Jesus was actually born. Some theologians speculate that Jesus may have been born around the time of the Jewish New Year. December 25 was taken from a pagan feast day to the Roman god Saturn. The Christmas tree also has pagan origins.]
The resurrection isn't celebrated when it should be, either, even though we do know the proper date; instead the early church co-opted a convenient fertility festival and its symbols, eggs and bunnies . . . then too, the sabbath was shifted from Saturday to Sunday for reasons I forget.
"....the sabbath was shifted from Saturday to Sunday for reasons I forget.
Probably so it doesn't happen on the same day. The Muslims chose Friday for that very reason.
Christians chose Sunday because the Resurrection occurred on a Sunday. As for why Muslims chose Friday? Good question. Maybe Salaam Allah Subway Photographer could tell us why Muslims celebrate the Sabbath on Friday.
Is that the reason they gave out to the masses or the real reason?
Actually, Sunday is not properly termed the "Sabbath" even by Christians. It is the "Lord's Day". Those who call it the "Sabbath" are using the term informally and, in fact, incorrectly.
Most European languages reflect this fact. In Spansih, for example,
Saturday = sábado = "sabbath"
Sunday = domingo = "Lord's day"
As for what the "real" reason is for making Sunday the main day of religious observance, I suspect no one will ever know.
[As for what the "real" reason is for making Sunday the main day of religious observance, I suspect no one will ever know.]
You know, this is frustrating because I *have* read something on why the church made the change and I can't for the life of me remember what it was.
There is a fairly interesting discussion of this topic here.
As to when it happened, "The Convert's Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, written by Reverend Peter Geiermann, C.S.R., and blessed by Pope Pius X on the 25th of January 1910, Second edition, page 50" says "We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church, in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 336), transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday."
As to why, the resurrection day appears to be the explanation.
However, if we are looking the Church's 4th century thinking in the change, we could guess, based on ways religions tend to differentiate themselves from others, that the Catholic Church at the time felt it was strong enough to make itself distinct from Jewish practices in a very visible way.
Having read the link, which explains Sunday was designated as the new Sabbath due to being the day of Jesus' resurrection, I am surprised that official Christiandom never proposed a name change from SUnday to SOnday. (As an aside, I must say SubTalk has the most intellectual offtopic threads of any website I've encountered.)
I don't understand how the church did not propose changing the names of the days of the week and month, as they are named for pagan gods (all days, only some months). The French understood where the calendar came from, so they made a new one based on Virtue, Knowledge, Labor, Reason, Reward and Revolution (leap years only). They did the same to the measurement system, still in use in all but the most advanced (and stubborn) of country.
After a hard week or work you need to be able to sleep in and not have to go to some church. Of course if you work in the TA after a hard week of work you have to get ready for a hard week-end of overwork.
"After a hard week or work you need to be able to sleep in and not have to go to some church."
In Medieval Europe, there were six day weeks, people worked on Saturday.
In Medieval Europe, there were six day weeks, people worked on Saturday.
Six day weeks were common until after WWII, although most people worked a short day on Saturday in this century.
Transit relevance: the general shortening of the work week to 5 days was another factor in the general decline of transit systems fortunes in the '40s and '50s--a system lost 1/6 of the revenue from each rider no longer traveling on Saturday without an equivalent reduction in fixed costs.
[Transit relevance: the general shortening of the work week to 5 days was another factor in the general decline of transit systems fortunes in the '40s and '50s--a system lost 1/6 of the revenue from each rider no longer traveling on Saturday without an equivalent reduction in fixed costs.]
Interesting factoid.
Actually, my father an mother worked six days per week -- he did the working, she put up with us at home. My wife and I worked ten days per week before we had kids, six days per week for a while, but now we are back to ten days per week. So the rise in labor force participation should have boosted subway ridership in NYC.
Except, of course, that it didn't happen. Labor force participation was 58 percent in NYC in 1960, and its 58 percent now. U.S. labor force participation was 56 percent in 1960, but 68 percent today. Hence the mess we are in.
So in the suburbs, you now have a third rush hour as working parents try to do their personal business on their lunch hours. This, too, should boost ridership with the monthly pass.
[Except, of course, that it didn't happen. Labor force participation was 58 percent in NYC in 1960, and its 58 percent now. U.S. labor force participation was 56 percent in 1960, but 68 percent today. Hence the mess we are in.]
As I walk around, I keep thinking to myself of how much needs doing, and of how many hundreds of thousands of people are sitting around unable to find work. There really is something wrong here. It took 7,000 men four years to build the IRT--and here we are, paying all these people to stare at the wall.
At the same time, I cringe at the idea that government is paying welfare recipients who do work poorhouse wages.
And again I think, why don't we just take all the money we spend on the poor, and give it to the poor instead--an honest day's pay for an honest day's work.
So in the suburbs, you now have a third rush hour as working parents try to do their personal business on their lunch hours.
Exactly. Which, as a manager, is a big problem for me. My most productive employees, by and large, are men who are the sole support of their family. My least productive are women with children whose husbands also work. Those whose spouse stays home with children, and those men who don't have children, have someone else to do the errands, so they stay at work all day. If they need to work late, they can do it - no rushing to day care to pick up the kids, etc. I have one person on my staff who regularly arrives late ("my daughter missed the bus"), shops daily at lunch time, and leaves early ("I have to get there before day care closes"). Her husband is a highly-paid, self-employed professional. I can't get rid of her because it would violate the corporate policy on diversity (her work, when she's around, is good, so I don't have that excuse). I've got nothing against women in the workplace per se - some of my best employees are women - but if they're going to be there then they need to BE there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Which, as a manager, is a big problem for me. My most productive employees, by and large, are men who are the sole support of their family. My least productive are women with children whose husbands also work.]
Dunno. Granted, I'm not a manager, but it's been my observation that women with children usually are good workers. While they may not always be able to work long hours, they tend to be highly efficient and make good use of their time. No doubt their family responsibilities more or less oblige them to be efficient.
Many do make good use of their time - what time they're on premises. But when I'm paying for a 40 hour week, with o/t as required, and I can only get 30 hours out of them then their productivity is still poor.
A related observation - I have three currently-unmarried mothers in my organization. Two of them are among my top performers. I assume that part of their motivation is the knowledge that they are the sole support of their children and therefore success in their job is significantly more important than it might be to someone else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey, my wife is paid for a 32 hour week and is doing the same job as other people working a 40 hour week or more. She comes in or works at home on Sunday, gratis, if she has to.
"....the sabbath was shifted from Saturday to Sunday for reasons I forget."
Probably so it doesn't happen on the same day. The Muslims chose Friday for that very reason.
I say that just because we made a 1500 years ago when making a calendar dosen't mean we have to keep making it. The base 10 counting system goes from 0-9 not 1-10. The new day does not start at 00:000...1, its starts at 00:00. Everybody says that there was no year 0, well there should have been and its not to late to currect this mistake. We can either a) Declare that the firsl millennium only had 999 years, b) Declare the first milliennium started at BC 1 or c) change BC 1 to 0 so things count 4,3,2,0,1,2,etc. This way the centruies and millennia will start when they should. I also think that we should introduse the term 0th (zeroth or noneth) to label the period between 0 and .999999->.
"The new day does not start at 00:000...1, its starts at 00:00"
That's not true, the day starts at 12:01 AM. Midnight is still a PM time, but clockmakers find it easier to change AM/PM and the day with the hour, not a minute later. Also, you failed to mention, obviously since it fails to prove your point, that the first day of the year is not January 0.
I think the new day does start at 00:00. Midnight is 12AM not 12PM also in Military time Midnight is 000 hours. Furthermore with 24 hour clocks there us no 24:00. They go from 00:00 to 23:599999->, so if the new day did start at 00:01 why start the clock at 00:00?
"Midnight is 12AM not 12PM..."
Actually it is neither. Midnight is equidistant to noon in both directions, and could therefore not be classified as Antemeridian or Postmeridan accurately.
You are, of course, right. I think most people are aware of these facts by now, but there seems to be a general perception that to insist on it is being "pedantic" and, in general, a spoilsport.
A recent article by Stephen Jay Gould (I think - I almost said by Carl Sagan, but it can't be because he's dead!) pointed out that the same argument occurred in 1899, about whether 1900 or 1901 would start the new century. Most people then were willing to defer to the "authorities" and leave any turn-of-the-century celebrations until 1901. Today, we are not so willing to do that. Gould calls it the triumph of "low culture" over "high culture". I'm not sure that is such great terminology, but I do agree with his final conclusion: in the end, it really doesn't matter, because all calendars are arbitrary anyway.
My dad was one of the first to make the argument that the 20th century and 2nd millenium don't end until Dec. 31, 2000, but he also points out that in Italy they refer to "the 1800s" and "the 1900s" rather than "the 19th century" and "the 20th century", so Italians can quite properly and accurately celebrate the end of the century of "the 1900s" at the end of December 1999. He wonders what they will call the century from 2000 to 2099, though.
The 2000 vs. 2001 isue is apparently now causing heated debate in the NY Times editorial offices. For now, you can read about it at http://www.drudgereport.com/matt.htm.
If I may make a brief quotation from the article here:
The senior executive makes the point that the lead headline of the NEW YORK TIMES on January 1, 1901 read: "Twentieth Century's Triumphant Entry".
"We can hardly have a 99-year century, now can we?" said the executive. "We must not let logic take second place to popular feeling!"
People wouldn't think they're nuts, just party animals!!!
The Gregorian calendar was initially adopted in 1582. At that time, it was discovered that the Julian calendar had gotten out of sync relative to the earth's position in its orbit around the sun, or some related phenomenon. Pope Gregory ordered that eleven days be dropped from the calendar, and October 4, 1582 became October 15. The American colonies adopted the Gregorian calendar in 1752, at which time George Washington shifted his birth date from Feb. 11 to Feb. 22. Russia was the last country to adopt the Gregorian calendar, which wasn't until 1917. By then, they had to drop 13 days because the error had gotten that much worse. My grandparents, who were living in Moscow at the time, ended up shifting their birth dates after the switchover.
2000 is still the 20th century.
You could argue that 2001 starts the millenium because when Christ was born they stated with the year one AD after one BC, there was not year zero. Or you can argue that it was some other year, since historians are pretty sure that Christ was born in a different year than was previously thought.
I argue that the millenium is whenever people think it is. Since the date and year is arbitrary in any case, what other determination could there be?
Just because a year is arbitrary doesn't mean that it doesn't mean anything. The stupid English measurement system is arbitrary, yet I don't go around saying that the next mile begins where you want it, it starts based on where the first one began, whether that has meaning or not.
First of all I just want to point out that Miles start at 0. Here's something that will really make you question your sanity. The Mellennium starts at Midnight 200/2001. Well there are 24 time zones and you can't have 24 different Mellennium can you? The REAL Millennium will start at 00:00 Greenwitch mean time and unless you are using Greenwitch CT 00:00 GMT will be at 7:00 EST which is just a pittiful time to hold a party. So I look at it this way. There are 4 possible Mellennia (7 PM and Midnight Dec 31 1999 and 7 PM and Midnight Dec 31 2000). We should try and celebrate them all. They shouls even have 4 ball drops at Times Square. With 4 different shows would could let many more people experiance the fun.
There will be 24 celebrations of the 2000 "millenium", one in each time zone. There are plans to televise the festivities from around the world on some channel or other.
Midnight GMT, however, is the time at which "leap seconds" have been inserted on the last several New Years. If you were watching WABC Channel 7 (to see "Jeapordy!") on any of the last several New Years Eves, you would have noticed an extra second of silence at the staion ID just before the show started. That was leap second, people!
So outside the London time zone, there was no extra second at 11:59 PM. But in that zone, there was - at 11:59 PM exactly, there were still 61 seconds to the new year.
"Well there are 24 time zones"
There are more than 24 time zones. There are those places in west longitude that are westof the International Date Line and those in E. longitude that are east of the line. Not to mention the half hour time zones like Newfoundland.
And if you're talking about different time zones, why not just talk about different calendars? The seventh millennium begins in 240 years under the Hebrew/Babylonian Calendar, the second millennium begins in 792 years under the French Republican Calendar, third in 540 for Islamic and 340 until the sixth for Chinese.
[While we're at it lets get rid of all human interaction. After all we're close to the 21st century, the one with Hal the Robot, etc.
Hell, I like conductors, both on the subway and the LIRR. I also like people working in the stations, etc. Believe it or not, I'm sure you don't but I actually would rather hear a human voice tell me my next stop than a computer voice. And if someone asked me if I'd rather be on a subway with glass between the platform & the tracks with double opening elevator type doors OR an R1 or a gate car believe it or not I'd pick the old stuff every time. I guess I'm a big minority here in this forum!!!!]
Is it really a matter of what you like? If you had a choice of taking two trains, one with staffing and one without, the only proviso being that you had to pay the difference in cost if you used the staffed station and trains, which would you do? I thought so.
BTW, I took PATH today to Jersey City, and a subway. PATH stations--no attendants. Subway station--person in booth. Difference in experience: none.
Josh
[One doesn't have to go very far to see that subways today are moving to automated trains, OPTO, unattended stations, and in the case of London, complete automation. Our subways on the other hand are hugely overstaffed. That's an immense chunk of the budget.]
You are correct in saying that the subways *could* operate just fine with far fewer employees. Overstaffing levels are an embarassment, adding validity to George Conklin's claim that mass transit generally operates with steam-era technology.
Whether the subways *should* embrace technology and drastically reduce staffing levels is another matter entirely. As I've said before in other forums, the Transit Authority has an implicit agreement with its workers - something that goes beyond specific contractual terms - that they'll have a level of job security well beyond the norm in the private sector. Workers have been more or less entitled to trust the TA in this respect, and know that their jobs aren't constantly on the line. The massive layoffs that would accompany a full-scale technological revolution would break this trust, probably making future labor-management relations that much worse.
There may be ways around this situation, for instance by reducing unneeded workers through attrition, but clearly there's no quick answer.
Somehow I don't think that a
Somehow I don't think that a major technological revolution will result in massive layoffs, if for no other reason than that it will take time to implement such a changeover on as large a system as New York's. Attrition may well be sufficient to handle most of the reduction.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[You are correct in saying that the subways *could* operate just fine with far fewer employees. Overstaffing levels are an embarassment, adding validity to George Conklin's claim that mass transit generally operates with steam-era technology.
Whether the subways *should* embrace technology and drastically reduce staffing levels is another matter entirely. As I've said before in other forums, the Transit Authority has an implicit agreement with its workers - something that goes beyond specific contractual terms - that they'll have a level of job security well beyond the norm in the private sector. Workers have been more or less entitled to trust the TA in this respect, and know that their jobs aren't constantly on the line. The massive layoffs that would accompany a full-scale technological revolution would break this trust, probably making future labor-management relations that much worse.
There may be ways around this situation, for instance by reducing unneeded workers through attrition, but clearly there's no quick answer.]
I agree, but only up to a point. I can't buy the notion of an "implicit" job guarantee. Lots of people went to work for IBM in no-layoff days, and eventually lost their jobs. We simply can't afford to have a ridiculously overstaffed system when we so desperately need to rebuild our schools or put in a Second Avenue subway, and when so many of the people riding the train are struggling to keep roofs over their heads. And quite frankly, I've seen enough union extortion in the City to make me a bit uncomfortable with the whole business. Retirement after 20 years. Blood donation days.
At the same time, I think that both practicality and compassion demand that we do something for existing TA workers. So I don't favor laying anybody off, or reducing anyone's salary. But I think that in return we have to demand several things, such as transfers with retraining to any other job at a comparable base wage. We need people rebuilding stations and patrolling and giving advice via information phones, not opening doors and selling tokens. If the union is willing to play along, fine. Between that, and attrition, and buyouts, and the fact that it will take a few years to automate the system and that for reasons of practicality and economy the modernization will proceed in stages, I think everybody can be reasonably happy.
Lots of people went to work for IBM in no-layoff days, and eventually lost their jobs.
I'm one of them. It resulted in short-term profits for IBM and new chairman Lou Gerstner but ultimately has destroyed the fabric of the company. I work with a number of former IBM employees (some who were laid off, others who came to the firm I now work for as the result of the sale of a business unit) and they are all glad to be gone. IBM is just a shell of its former self, with very little employee loyalty.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I'm one of them. It resulted in short-term profits for IBM and new chairman Lou Gerstner but ultimately has destroyed the fabric of the company. I work with a number of former IBM employees (some who were laid off, others who came to the firm I now work for as the result of the sale of a business unit) and they are all glad to be gone. IBM is just a shell of its former self, with very little employee loyalty.]
On the other hand, I knew people in the old days who complained that IBM was jam packed with managers who did nothing.
That was a common criticism by outsiders that I think was relatively inaccurate. I've worked for three other large corporations since I left IBM (two briefly, one for the past four years) and I've seen much worse elsewhere. I've also been around long enough to appreciate a lot of what is done by upper management. Technical decisions are by-and-large best left to the technical folks but strategy and business decisions are beyond the scope of a technical person's responsibilities and often involve factors that they know nothing about. On the other hand, their input regarding technical feasibility and cost is valuable in assessing the strengths and weaknesses of differing strategies. Part of my job as a project manager is to collect this information, perform first-order analysis on it, and pass it up to senior management as one input to their decision-making. IBM pre-Gerstner was probably managed as well as my current employer. IBM in the Gerstner era ended the practice of careful thought for one of slash and burn - in the short run, good for the big stockholders (and especially those like Gersnter with super-cheap options) but bad for everyone else.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[That was a common criticism by outsiders that I think was relatively inaccurate.]
I heard it from people that worked at IBM. Of course, I have no first hand experience, so can't say either way.
Of course, the general perspective is that Gerstner saved IBM by ramping up its service providing business, cashing in on its under-marketed programming skills.
From that standpoint, yes - but he also decided that quality cost money, and therefore didn't matter. And it shows - the business I was in (POS [Point of Sale, a.k.a. fancy cash registers]) was at its high point in the early '90s. The layoffs eliminated software testing organizations because the software being produced was of excellent quality. Why was it so good? Because it was in your performance plan, and it was measured based on bugs found by the test groups. Eliminate the test groups, the performance measurement was eliminated, and the programmers lost the incentive to do a top-notch job. Market share has plunged since then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
JV
Platform doors spoil the 'atmosphere' of the Underground, but they have to be the way of the future. Currently, I believe that drivers are having to line up with them manually, which is posing quite a challenge. Interestingly, LT has built the line with the traditional 'suicide pits' almost as though they know that there is a risk that the doors will have to go.
Max ... But they ARE in operation now on the JLE? Any notes on how they plan to keep them clean? What did you think of them, having passed through the new stations?
As for "suicide pits" (rather a contradiction in concept, no?), they may still be needed if a door stays open due to malfunction AND someone happens to fall through it. Here in NYC, riders lean against closed car doors routinely (most, including me, also hang onto a rail if it's not too crowded). Wonder if crowds at rush will press right against the plate-glass walls ....
JV: Yes, doors definitely all working at all underground stations on the JLE, except for the old stations (Green park, Baker Street etc.) I don't know the exact cleaning details, but the Underground has always had a cleaning problem. The tunnels of the deep tubes collect dust, grease, and dirt which has to be removed. I guess that whoever or whatever does this cleaning has a new job to do.
The JLE stations are like no others on the Underground, the doors turn the entire platform area into a waiting room. The metalwork supporting the glass is quite heavy, so a train arrival is really like watching a train through a window. The showpiece stations (e.g. Canary Wharf) are basically open vaults rather than tubes, so the platform area is like nothing seen before on the Underground, with structures towering into the sky, a platform/waiting area the length of an eight coach train and, well its hard to say, 60 feet at Canary Wharf? These stations will never suffer from overcrowding under normal circumstances. Also, I suspect that trains are prevented from leaving unless all platform doors are closed. You are right that Suicide Pit is a strange name, but people can always change their minds.
I hate the doors and I love them. The tube-train atmosphere has gone, but the effect is so much more civilised, keeping up with people's expectations is the only way of keeping people out of cars and on public transport. The irritation is that the JLE uses tube-sized stock. These are efficient but are a cramped anachronism.
Max Roberts
Colchester, UK
Max: I actually viewed an exhibit of designs for the JLE stations at a small design musueum or gallery in London about 6 years ago. Looking forward to seeing them in person on my next visit.
And you're right about tube-size stock ... after riding NYC's BMT Broadway line reguarly to get to work, the tiny tube cares are always a shock. But I envy you the short headways, seemingly 3 minutes on almost any line at any time during the day.
(And you have chocolate vending machines on the platforms!)
I don't remember where I heard this from, but aren't the new Jubilee service stations climate controlled as well? I thought that was one of the additional reasons for the doors (in addition to keeping people out of the tubes). If they're not climate controlled, then how do they plan on ventillating the stations now that they don't have trains plowing through there to change out the air?
Sean
I am pretty sure that you are right, although I think that the concern was more ventilation than temperature control. In fact, I think that this was the only reason why platform doors were specified, although safety considerations would have probably swung a marginal financial case. I will report back on ventilation after the summer (if we get one).
Max
The glass doors are open at the top allowing air from the tunnels to escape and fill the station.
The doors are there as a safety feature (so I am lead to believe). Very simialr to the Lille Metro.
Simon
Swindon UK
Here is a fnutopic of discussion. What is your favorite express run?
Is it the CPW dash or the Queens Blvd. run or 4th Avenue, Lexington (between BB-125), Bway/7th Ave (96-CHM), or even the Flushing Express.
What do you all think?
To appreciate the Queens Blvd express run, you have to get a train before 7:00 A.M. Afterwards, the thing usually crawls. The same in the evening rush, you have to get a train after 7:30 P.M. or you won't appreciate the ride.
At any time, it slows down around 36th Street, due to the 63rd St. extension.
Can someone answer this for me. Heading towards Jamaica, the E or F always slows down while in the middle of the Elmhurst Ave. station and dosen't pick up speed until after it passes Grand Ave. I have been observing this for many years. Why is it so?
That area has had that speed restriction for a long as I can remember. After Grand Ave they would go full speed up to Continental Ave.
Wayne
I hate that spot. I can almost predict to the second when the train will suddenly decelerate just as it reaches the end of the Elmhurst Ave station. Must be a GT signal there. It usually picks right back up by the time you get to Woodhaven Blvd.
I ride in the middle of the car and it seems to be halfway through the station when the slowdown begins. The signal has to be at the end of the station.
Something similar happens on the BSS. Southbound express trains generally decelarate while passing next to Hunting Park Station, and speed up halfway to Erie, an express stop. They also slow down at Cecil B. Moore Station, even though it is some distance from the next stop. Conclusion: If you are going to Philadelphia, the northbound Broad Street express is better than southbound.
That's the infamous Elmhurst GT (Grade Timer). There's one going in the other direction around Woodhaven Boulevard. They've been there for years. There's an illuminated "S" beneath the signal.
Grade Timers are signals that are set to yellow (followed by a red), even though the track is unoccupied. The train approaches the yellow, it turns green, then the following red turns yellow, etc. These are used to regulate speed and keep the spacing between trains in order.
I think they've gotten carried away with these - there are too many of them.
Wayne
Yeah I used to wonder why it took me so long to get home. Then I rode at the front of an E one night and watched timer after timer after timer after timer after timer. Of course most of them turned green well ahead of the train, too.
One Question- why is there a slow speed restriction at the 135 street station on the "B" and "D" express tracks? This has been for quite some time- years ago the trains used to speed through between 125 and 145 streets?
Right you are. It has been this daily rider's observation that this speed restriction was set inplace in the late 1980's when the beloved R68/68A's began to rule the routes. Did I hear somewhere that these sleek beauties were prone to derail in that area?
Joe C
Transit Worker: Since it carries the number that once identified my favorite train, I can say that the Bronx to Manhattan #4 Woodlawn Line is a great ride if you're in a hurry. It just seems to blast through Manhattan train stations and stops only at key spots in the borough, like Union Square-14th Street, among others. It really picks up speed and at times it seems like it's out of control. I've even heard that there has been a couple of derailments on that line. That would be horrendous, but it sure gets you where you want to go quickly when you ride that train. I'm told it's local when it gets to Brooklyn but I never rode it there so I wouldn't know.
During middays, the 4 operates express in Brooklyn to Utica Ave. It's only during late nights that it runs local, and then it makes all stops along its route and is extended all the way to New Lots Ave.
The most infamous derailment on the 4 occurred on August 28, 1991 just north of Union Square. Trying to take a diverging switch at 40 mph will do that.
Hey Steve: Hard to believe but that was just two days after I returned from New York and that was the last train I rode before departing for California. Close call.
We left New York for home during our vacation in 1965 on the very same day the Triplexes made their last run: July 23. Unfortunately, I didn't know anything about it at the time.
I have a few on various lines.
1. IND 6th Ave 34th - West 4th southbound
2. BMT 4th Ave Pacific Street - 36th Street (Both directions)
3. IRT 7th Ave 96th Street - Times Square (Both directions)
4. IND 8th Ave 59/Columbus Circle - 42 Street (southbound)
5. IRT Lexington Ave Grand Central - 59th Street (northbound)
and there's more good ones.
Wayne
Yes but not on a 68 PLEASE!!!
I still think the Q groves once it tops its climb out of Newkirk Ave on the way to Kings Hwy. The other day I happen to be at AVE M station on the street, BOY I forgot the sound of the Q moving at speed above ya. What a Sound!!
Anywhere on the Brighton Express between Sheapshead Bay and Newkirk. Standing up on the front, especially if it is a clear day, you could always see Manhatten 2nd is the 7 Express inbound to Manhatten, again for its view. For speed, A or D between 59th and 125th, or the Lex between 86th and 125th Sts. Then there is BART in the Transbay Tunnel at 75 mph +
Of the outdoor lines I'd say its a tie between the Brighton Line and the Flushing Line Expresses. I enjoy the front window on both.
Underground I'd say the IND betw 59th and 125th. As a teen in the late 60's,early 70's I used to work at Yankee Stadium & took the "D" with R1-9's (I think) and it was a great run at the front window, especially with the different grade changes. Also, when I was a kid my Grandparents took me alot to the Museum of Nat History and I loved waiting in the 81St Street station when an express went by. It was scary. I felt cheated when our train came first and my grandmother made us get on without having an Express pass.
If the LIRR counts the underground part between ENY and Jamaica is a pretty fast run. I try to look for the old Woodhaven Station and the train goes too fast to see it!!!
One way to tell where Woodhaven station is: Outbound (from ENY to JAM) you will go over a switch - you can feel it - where the cutoff to the Far Rockaway Branch still is. The switch is still there. If the train's at speed, count 1-Mississippi up to 5-Mississippi and then you'll see Woodhaven Station, very dim, on your right.
Wayne.
Was the Rockaway Beach line physically connected to the LIRR running under Atlantic? I have never seen such a connection, and I know almost every inch of that abandoned ROW.
[Was the Rockaway Beach line physically connected to the LIRR running under Atlantic? I have never seen such a connection, and I know almost every inch of that abandoned ROW.]
Yep. There's now a school bus lot on the site of the old ramp.
This is news to me. I've seen the schoolbus lot, but no signs of a ramp from the Rockaway line down to the Atlantic Ave. tunnel.
I would guess that the ramp entrance, if it's still there, is further south, south of what's left of Woodhaven station, probably around 97 Avenue, closer to the Ozone Park station.
Wayne
No, the ramp could be clearly seen right where the schoolbus lot is now. I saw it about 15-20 years ago.
11/21/99
That ramp was filled in years ago. You used to see on passing trains along with the cyclone fence at the portal. I remember peering down on the ramp from above in the late 70's when it was intact. IT was a two track ramp crossing at grade in the subway.
Bill Newkirk
Most definitely!! The book "Change At Ozone Park" goes into it and even has a picture of the very last train from Flatbush Av to Aqueduct on 9/22/55 just before the IND took over. By the way, at the East N.Y. station in the crossover tunnel theres still a sign painted on the wall by the E/B stairs: "Trains to Jamaica and the Rockaways"
(Atlantic/Rockaway Connection)
That would be another alternative for direct JFK to Manhattan service, in association with a direct LIRR to Downtown connection. (A fantasy off a fantasy).
What, and evict the school bus company????
Yes! DOWN WITH SCHOOL BUSSES!
11/21/99
FORGET IT !! Airtrain is on the way and nothing is stopping this Port Authority project. Yes,I regret this project myself.
Bill Newkirk
That's easy for me. Sixth Ave. IND downtown, from 34th Street to W. 4th Street. It's short, but it's fast. And it's in the very heart of the Central Business District of the greatest city on earth. My "personal best" is 2:03 on a Q Slant-40. I wish I thought of timing this run before the field shunt mod!
Although it is one of, if not the fastest, the one thing I don't like about the 34th to West 4th run is that you don't get to see the local stations go whizzing by, since it's all tunnel. 7th Ave. Express between 34th and 14th is much better, in my opinion.
My vote for best express is 8th Ave. between 59th and 125th. However, it's been so many years sine I last used it, I imagine it must be slower now due to the speed restrictions.
Second place is the Brighton Express. Honorable mention to the Broadway Brooklyn line between Broadway Junction and Marcy Ave. Unfortunatly it's only skip-stop now between Broadway Junction to Myrtle.
[Although it is one of, if not the fastest, the one thing I don't like
about the 34th to West 4th run is that you don't get to see the local
stations go whizzing by, since it's all tunnel. 7th Ave. Express between
34th and 14th is much better, in my opinion.]
Since I am not quite sure about all of NYCs express runs, could you please tell me which ones have the locals and express running at the same level, which ones have them running at different levels.
The Lexington Ave. express from Grand central to 125th is almost all bi-level, with the express and local tracks at the same level through the 103rd. Stand the 110th. St. stations only. The Queens Blvd IND takes a shortcut, so it doesn't go through 3 of the 5 stops between Roosevelt Ave. and Queens Plaza. The Brooklyn IRT also has its express tracks at another level between Atlantic and Franklin. Ditto for the A between 168th and 145th.
[Although it is one of, if not the fastest, the one thing I don't like
about the 34th to West 4th run is that you don't get to see the local
stations go whizzing by, since it's all tunnel. 7th Ave. Express between
34th and 14th is much better, in my opinion.]
Since I am not quite sure about all of NYCs express runs, could you please tell me which ones have the locals and express running at the same level, which ones have them running at different levels.
Express runs with local stations at same level:
IRT:
7th Avenue (2,3) from Chambers Street to 96th Street
Lexington Avenue (4,5) from Brooklyn Bridge to Grand Central
Lexington Avenue (4,5) at 103rd Street and 110th Street
(+) Flushing Express (7) from Junction Boulevard to Queensboro Plaza
(+) Pelham Express (6) from E.177th Street-Parkchester to 3rd Avenue
Brooklyn Express (4,5) from Franklin Avenue to Utica Avenue
Brooklyn Express (4,5) at Hoyt Street
(+) Bronx Express (5) from 180th Street to 3rd Avenue-149th Street
(+) Bronx Express (4) at 138th Street-Mott Haven
(+) Peak Direction Only
BMT:
Brighton Express (Q) from Sheepshead Bay to Prospect Park
4th Avenue Express (B,N) from 59th Street to Pacific Street *
* Local stations separated from express tracks by curtain wall
between 36th Street and Pacific Street
(+) Broadway-Brooklyn Express (J,Z) from Marcy Avenue to Myrtle Avenue
Broadway Express (N) from Canal-Broadway to 34th Street (not currently in operation - scheduled to return to service in 2001)
(+) Peak Direction only
IND:
8th Avenue express (A) from Canal Street to 145th Street
(D) from 59th Street to 145th Street
(+) Concourse Express (D) from Tremont Avenue to 145th Street
Queens Express (E,F) from 71st Avenue to Roosevelt Avenue
Fulton Express (A) from Hoyt Street to Euclid Avenue
(+) Peak Direction only
Express Runs with express tracks on separate level:
IRT:
Brooklyn Express (4,5) from Atlantic Avenue to Franklin Avenue
Lexington Express (4,5) from Grand Central to 125th Street **
** 103rd Street and 110th Street stations visible from express train
BMT:
None at this time
IND:
6th Avenue Express (B,D,Q) from 34th Street to West 4th Street
Queens Express from Roosevelt Avenue to Queens Plaza **
** 65th Street and 36th Street stations visible from express train
8th Avenue Express (A) from 145th Street to 168th Street
Hope I got them all...
Wayne
"(+) Bronx Express (4) at 138th Street-Mott Haven"
Wayne or anyone,
Does the (4) really past 138th Street-Mott Haven? If it does, were you ever on the (5) express when the (4) passed yall?
I think that's really funny. One express passes another express.
N Broadway Line
#4 trains bypass the 138th Street-Mott Haven station in the peak direction only during the rush hours. #5 trains make the stop at all times.
It might be a good idea to institute some sort of peak-direction #4 express service from, say, Burnside Avenue to 149th Street, like the #6 does.
Wayne
[It might be a good idea to institute some sort of peak-direction #4 express service from, say, Burnside Avenue to 149th Street, like the #6 does.]
When is the last time the Jerome Ave line had express service?
Don t think it ever did
i vote for the FLUSHING LINE # 7 !!!!
BOTH DIRECTIONS EXPRESS TRAINS !!! why wouldnt you vote for anything else ???
There are only three tracks!
Have you ridden the Q Lately?
I can think of an even funnier one: a D trying to overtake an A during the late hours, especially if any of the R-38s are out and about then. Purists may say this doesn't count, since the A runs local late at night. Still, the thought of those lumbering lardbuckets huffing and puffing while R-38s zoom by leaves me in stitches. It's even more hilarious if the R-44s are holding down the fort. Talk about a tortoise race!
P. S. Wayne, you forgot one detail: on the Concourse line, the express run is from 145th St. to Fordham Rd. All three tracks remain at the same level along the entire run.
Well, I echo the Brighton express run being TOPS on my list...but I must say....I was on a #7 express heading to Shea for game #3 of the NLCS and that was alot of fun too.....(maybe that was just the excitement of my first Mets playoff game...:) )
The Brighton Beach bound Q express on the slant R40. What a ride!
When it comes to Express there is only one ride, 7th Avenue, railfan window, in a Redbird.
Simon
Swindon UK
And the crowd says....
YES!
Also uptown on the Lex from Brooklyn Bridge on a Redbird if can catch one, espescially with that neat little DARK spot right after Brooklyn Bridge (theres a neat little spot for about 5-600 feet with no signals,no phone lights NOTHING, just dark...cool!)
A couple of weeks ago now I rode the Lex. The driver had his door open so I was able to see the speedo. In between Union Square and Grand Central Irecorded 47mph. We were really cooking. Great fun. Can't wait till I am over again in March next year.
Simon
Swindon UK
That's about where the old Worth St. station is.
Taking the one which came first to mind:
My favorite express run was not one of the longest. It was the run from Kings Highway to Newkirk on the Brighton Express, particularly on a Triplex before the hill from Avenue H was grade timed.
The trains got up a good head of steam, then came down the hill with both controller and brake off. This meant they could exceed motor speed. Then they were brought to a perfect stop after roaring into Newkirk Avenue.
I think this was made better by the fact that some of the most skilled motormen on the BMT were on the run--that's not Brighton Line boosterism--it's because the Brighton Express was basically a Monday-Friday daytime job, so it tended to attract top seniority men.
Probably, or maybe, almost as good as riding that run was when I'd be commuting from Bklyn College waiting on the Ave H station when an express flew past Manhattan bound.
Not to mention standing on a platform down on the Corridor, when a Metroliner passes by.....ZOOOM!
The brand-new brightliners on the Q-Broadway Brighton Express weren't too shabby either. But, yes, the Triplex on the Brighton Express was nice.
Right Paul On a Triplex, but the Train also ran on Saturdays too.
[ Brighton Express also ran Saturday ]
That's correct, Bob. But they were still Mon.-Fri. jobs. Saturday was covered by other picks.
Which makes me wonder. Was riding the Saturday Brighton Express a different experience? I did ride it at times, but have no special recollection, and I guess it's too late to figure it out now.
Dear Paul, they were not as crowded, except at a Sat Afternoon game at Ebbets Field when the stadium let out. Then Prospect Park was hell.I also remember on Sundays and nights. The BRighton Local ran express in Manhatten and local in Brooklyn via Bridge using standards. SDaytime hours only. I do not remember if weekday nights if they ran after the last Exp left Times Sq around 9.00PM
It's been a while (a long, long while) but the F express from Jay St. to Kings Highway was a great express run back in the 70s, especially in the summer looking out the railfan window with an air conditioned Slant 40 as the lead car.
Maybe someday it will live again...
It's been a while (a long, long while) but the F express from Jay St. to Kings Highway was a great express run back in the 70s, especially in the summer looking out the railfan window with an air conditioned Slant 40 as the lead car.
Maybe someday it will live again...
I have to agree with you except for 1 thing. If we're talking '70s, I'd rather be,looking out the railfan window of an R-1/9, even in the summer.
I did that back in 1971 - on an R-6. August 14th to be exact. It wasn't too pretty - it was rush hour. I liked the R-6 on the Queens end of it better, they got up a full head of steam (and Bull Gears howling at "A") between Union and Parsons.
Watbe
IIRC, August 14, 1971 was a Saturday. Maybe it was Friday the 13th.
At least no one got sick, right?
That's a great question. As a kid I guess I had a fav or two. Now, I'm just thankful for a fast ride, locals included.
Before the motors were slowed down, one of the best was the express between 59th and 72nd ST, IRT #2,#3, either direction. Loved the way the trains whipped around the "S" curve in 59th st.
Joe C
Taking the S-curve on the post at 5-9 (#2, 3) is CLASSIC stuff. But its not my fave.
So far the results of the survey has the Brighton Express in a landslide!! In second, is the 7 Avenue Express between 96 & Chambers
My votes:
1) B'way/7th Avenue bet 72nd and 42nd.
2) B'way/7th Avenue bet.34th and 14th (love the close stations 28-23-18)
3) Flushing Express bet.Woodside and Junction n/b
4) 4th Avenue Pacific to 36th on a slant. (love the effect the walls create at the local stations).
5) Fulton Express bet. Hoyt and Nostrand
Honorable mention goes to Lex bet BB & 42. The express track drop at 33rd is very cool (as is the drop at Houston on the West side)
Just one note on the Flushing Express. Riding at night is classic because the WF 36's are the only car class that still has the flickering lights when the train hits a 3rd rail gap. I miss that on the 7th Ave.
I am surprised that with the couple of LIRR entries, no one has mentioned Jamaica to Woodside both directions. At 70+ MPH (how fast do those M1/3's go?) you can barely see Kew Gardens and Forest Hills.
Port Washington LIRR line is pretty slow though. I like the main line, and especially the elevated Babylon line the best.
MY favorite express run is the A or D between 125th street and 59th street trains go really fast about 15 minutes between stops another express run is the rush hour run on the Lexington avenue thru express run between 149th street and east 180th street run,the metro north express run between North White Plains and 125th street.Metro North express run from Stamford and 125th street, some parts on this run the trains reach around 90 miles an hour around the Larchmont straight away area.
Yesterday I took my 3 yr old to FAO Schwartz from Long Island at the railfan window the whole way!! no full length cabs!! LIRR Main line from Mineola to Woodside, "7" to Queensborough Plaza, "N" to 59th and 5th. Halfway through he wanted to sit down-where did I go wrong bringing him up? But when we got to FAO Schwartz he went straight to the electric tran layout and didn't want to leave. Going back we just missed a train at Woodside and had to wait there a while. That earlier poster who nominated the main line between Woodside & Jamaica as his favorite Express run was right. The trains really sped by there!!
You r lucky he did not have to go to the bathroom
11/21/99
FAVORITE EXPRESS RUN:
Nobody mentioned this even though it was a seasonal,specialty service. The Nostalgia Specials from 1976-80. Whether they used the B-types,D-types or R1-9 cars,the express run through the Fulton Street subway and 6th Ave was well worth the admission charge!
Bill Newkirk
I always loved standing at the railfan window on LIRR's Jamaica-Freeport-Babylon weekend express. That had to hit at least 70 on the embankment through Merrick and Bellmore and the structure through Amityville and Copiague. Too bad it's so hard to get the front window any more; there's usually the engineer's door or a hanger-on blocking it.
Likewise, any express through New Hyde Park and Mineola. The crossings make it that much more exciting, and the speed of the train reinforces in your head how foolish you would have to be to duck the gates. (That woman who bought it in Bethpage was said to have been completely mangled by a train slowing to a STOP!)
Technically not an express run, but I believe NJ Transit exceeds 80 on the New Brunswick-Princeton Junction stretch.
Of Course the Brighton no matter what number or letter you use it is still #1
"Of Course the Brighton no matter what number or letter you use it is still #1"
RIGHT ON!
11/21/99
[Of course the Brighton no matter what number or letter you use is still #1]
I'll second that,of course there are no more other expresses in Brooklyn on the ex-BMT. No more Culver,West End and Sea Beach. Brighton rules!
Bill NEWKIRK
The West End Still runs express between Pacific and 36th Doesn t it? even though there is nothing to see
11/22/99
#1 Bob Brighton Exp,
I kinda meant the outdoor lines/structures. Trunk lines don't count!
Bill Newkirk
" "S" curve in 59th st."
There's no "S" curve at 59th Street. You're talking about b/t City Hall and Cortlandt Street (N/R Lines). THAT'S A "S" CURVE!
N Broadway Line
The run from 59th through 66th is nice and straight, though. An uptown express would be screaming past 66th. To this day, I wonder what would happen if the switch to the pocket track just before 72nd wasn't set right. We'd be talking major train wreck.
If you get the chance to ride a deadhead or re-route up or down Jerome Ave, CENTER TRACK from 149th St/ G.C. to Burside. Wow, like no signals there. Even with today's speed restrictions,redbird or R62, they can MOOOOVE!!
Joe C
BEST EXPRESS ROUTE WOULD BE THE BRIGHTON EXPRESS. FEELS JUST LIKE THE METRO NORTH OR LIRR. TWO GOOD THINGS ABOUT IT. 1 ITS EXPRESS AND 2 IT RUNS OUTSIDE.
BEST EXPRESS ROUTE WOULD BE THE BRIGHTON EXPRESS. FEELS JUST LIKE THE METRO NORTH OR LIRR. TWO GOOD THINGS ABOUT IT. 1 ITS EXPRESS AND 2 IT RUNS OUTSIDE.
Yes, I'd have to go along with the Brighton Express. If I have to give an answer for underground express only, I'd have to go with the A-Train between 59 St and 125 St.
My two favorite modern express runs aren't even on the subway.
One is a Babylon express eastbound at rush hour. Pounding by station platforms at speeds up to 90 mph (I know they're not supposed to do that, but I've clocked it on mileposts in speed spurts). Also fun is watching traffic on Sunrise Highway trying to (illegally) pace one of these trains. Rarely comes close.
Second is on the Main Line Queens-Hicksville at 80mph+ speeds. Front window is the absolute best. You wonder how the engineers keep their nerve watching cars at grade crossings regularly pushing the closing gates, knowing that if one of them hung up, there is no way they wouldn't end up as twisted junk.
Well, if we want to go outside the subway, the Amtrak run from Albany to about Peekskill runs really really fast. Not sure it qualifies as an express run because there is only 2 tracks, but on some parts the Amtrak trains skip a lot of stations that are served by Metro North.
If we're allowed to include commuter rail lines, then one of my top picks in Chicago would be Metra's Heritage Corridor train from Chicago to Joliet. The route is about 30-40 miles long, with only four intermediate stops. Barring any delays from freight traffic, the massive bilevel Metra trains pick up sustained speeds of 89 MPH between stops. WOW!
It also makes for an excellent railfan trip, especially during the summer while it's still light out in the evenings... Once you arrive in Joliet, there's only about a 30-minute wait before you can grab a Rock Island train back into the city. And during that 30 minutes or so, it's not uncommon to see two or three huge freight trains pass through the grade crossing there at the station.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
And if we can go back in our memories, the Electroliner between Chicago and Milwaukee - I miss that run!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is Metra still using the early-1970s "Highliners" or is it all more recent equipment?
Down in Washington DC there's a sprint between National Airport and Braddock Road where they can get up over 70MPH. Also between King Street and Franconia-Springfield (with an intermediate stop at Van Dorn) they also top 70. Fastest DC run I ever experienced was on a Rohr train between Stadium-Armory and Benning Road - 79MPH. This guy had it wrapped around and my ears went "POOF!" when we plunged headlong into the tube.
Wayne
Is Metra still using the early-1970s "Highliners" or is it all more recent equipment?
I don't have any specific info, but I'd assume the Highliners are still in use; Metra still has some 1950's vintage rolling stock in use, which is now being sent out to pasture with the introduction of the new Amerail wheelchair-accessible units.
Metra has a fairly large variety of rolling stock, but the differences between most of the various models are pretty subtle, with the exception of the Metra Electric district units and the ex-C&NW painted units. I'm not as familiar with Metra rolling stock as I am with the CTA, but if you point out some of the distinguishing features of the Highliners then I may be able to give you more info as to their wherabouts.
Also, a good resource to check is the Chicago Railfan Page, which is sort of the Chicago counterpart to nycsubway.org, although not nearly as well-presented, IMO. Still includes some good info, though.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Highliners are bilevel MU's; they look to be about 80 feet long. They have dark bands around the windows and a single-leaf door in the car centre; they may also have doors at the car ends. Their unit numbers may include the 1400s, 1500s and 1600s series. I'm trying to describe them based on a photo from the October 31, 1972 Chicago Tribune, which shows what is left of one after it was telescoped by a 65-ton 1926 Pressed-Steel IC coach (with pentagraphs) travelling at 45MPH+. Based on that photographic evidence, I'd have to say the Highliners are/were rather flimsy.
They were built by St. Louis Car company.
Wayne
How about the Red Line run between Dupont Circle and Woodley Park-Zoo? Very good speed there, and when that train hits the air shafts...PHWAAA!! Also, rather unusual deep-tunnel walls on that stretch. I liked the Green Line segment between Fort Totten and West Hyattsville, before the road was completed in Northeast (haven't ridden it since).
Does the Howard Train Still run express during rush Hours north of the Loop? I haven t been there in 20 years, and rode it again a couple of timea
Yes, but it's not as much of an express as it used to be. The express run ends at Belmont and it's local the rest of the way in. When I commuted on it back in the late '70s it took 22 minutes from Howard Street to Merchandise Mart; I suspect it's closer to 30 minutes now. I'm hoping to ride it when I'm in Chicago next month for the first time in 20 years. However, I don't know if I'll have the time (or if my daughter will indulge me - she's touring law schools so that's the priority).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the Dupont Circle-Woodley Park run is a good one, especially in that open tunnel.
On my last trip out there, October 11, we had a Green Line thrill - we got up to 62MPH in the straightaway east of Fort Totten and rounded the banked curve into West Hyattsville at 50MPH, with decreasing speed entering the station. But the best was yet to come - this cowboy coaxed his Breda 3200-series motor up to 66MPH in the sinuous tube between Prince George's Pza. and the tunnelmouth south of College Park. What a rip!
Wayne
if we are include rr's try metro-north new haven expess south of standford. i clocked them at 93 mph.
Another nice run in my territory now is the peak am Port Jervis line trains that now run non-stop from Suffern to Hoboken; you pick up pretty good speed on that middle 'express' track . A few years ago,before the change I happened to be on a train where the brake pressure had fallen very low, and instead of killing the train at Suffern, the conductor pulled strings and had us run literally non-stop direct into Hoboken with a totally cleared track ahead....that sucker MOVED!
My experience with the Port Jervis Line was not good. Prior to car ownership, I wanted to meet some friends there for a canoe trip on the Delaware. It turns out the line did not run on weekends. Still true? And what do you think of the often mentioned (but not seriously) plan to put a rail bridge next to the Tappan Zee. It would bring some changes to Middletown, that's for sure.
Port Jervis does run weekends now, and has for at least four years. That's the only time I've ridden it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah..but it makes EVRY g.d. stop in Jersey..to tell ya the difference-the Middletown-Hoboken run on a peak train is now 1 1/2 hours...on weekends its OVER two...PLUS trying to catch a PATH on a Saturday or Sunday sched...YUCK! On weekends, you either run over to Beacon,or take the bus (which now has a one-day RT special fare of $25.00..which I hate to admit..isnt a bad deal..)
Ridership on the Port Jervis line supposedly is quite good despite its length. ISTR that there were well over 100 monthly ticket holders just from Port Jervis station.
(Ridership good)
Based on commuter patterns, the census bureau added Pike County in Pennsylvania to the NY Metrpolitan Area after the 1990 census. That might have something to do with the ridership. (Dutchess county was also added, and Mercer County NJ was transferred from the Philly Metro to the NYC Metro).
The weekend service here is TERRIBLE...and they wonder why no one rides weekends...(just check out the 'schedule...')
How about a Metro North EXpress Non Stop from Croton to Manhatten, speeding along the Hudson and Harlem Rivers. Only if the windows are clean and you can see out of them
And as far as a TZ area RR bridge is concerned..we are still waiting for our local airport to a friggin RADAR SCREEN! (If you happen to have seen channel 4 the other night...)
If it is only 2 tracks, then wouldn't Amtraks passing the station have to slow down and honk while passing it (not do it at full speed)?
They whistle..but slow down? Standing on the platform at Beacon, it sure don't feel like they slow down!:>)
I would have like to have done the QBlvd express, but of the ones I've been able to do, the 7th Avenue express is by far the fastest. I didn't like the Lexington(125-GCS) too much because most of it is under the local level and I like to see the stations whiz by when I'm on an express. I A-B-S-O-L-U-T-E-L-Y loathe the CPW express. The three times I've done it were sorely disappointing(mainly because I've always been on the D, and that's all I need to say).
This brings up another question. How many cities beside NYC, Philadelphia and Chicago run four track exp/lcl lines?
Hey Subway Steve: Once upon a time the Sea Beach ran express in Manhattan and the Brooklyn part of the line that was underground
before 59th Street. It was fun whooshing in and out of statons and watching the 4th Ave local standing still or stopping at every station under the sun. The West End was an express at different times as well. Locals were one big drag and it seemed you never got anywhere
until the cows came home. That's one thing I missed about my Sea Beach when I visited NY in 1974, 1991, and this summer. Ah, that's progress, so they say, but I don't call it that.
(Progress -- loss of Sea Beach Express)
It ain't progress. I actually have a spreadsheet that I whip out around Thanksgiving, with all kinds of figures to prove that things are better today than 30 or 40 years ago. But not subway service from the Southern Rim of Brooklyn. It's worse, much, much worse, all due to the cracking Manhattan Bridge and the indifference of Brooklyn's political leadership to its result.
My favorite express run -- the only one I ever get, the F express southbound from Jay St to 7th Avenue due to a problem. I'd actually rather ride an express, and either wait, go up and take the 75 bus, or walk for 15 minutes, than take a local.
Otherwise, the only good express is an off peak express. On peak, crowding slows the trains.
"The three times I've done it were sorely
disappointing(mainly because I've always been on the D, and that's all I need to say)."
You got that right Subway Steve. The D just doesn't cut it when it comes to speed in comparison to the A.
N Broadway Line
I love the Lexington Ave Express from 125 to Grand Central Southbound. Northbound its all good from Brooklyn Bridge to 125. I love the 7 Av Express from 96 to 14 St. In the Bronx I like the No.5 Throu Express from E 180 St to 3 Av. I like the No.7 Express. But the Best Express ride I ever did was from 125 Lex to Grand Central and ordered to bypass 86 St and 59 St. It happen one PM Rush Hour when I use to work the No.5 Line.
This should come as no surprise to anyone who has read my earlier posts. My all time favorite run is the CPW express dash when the R-10s ruled supreme on the A line. The R-38s provide a reasonable facsimile today; it's a case of making do with what you have.
Second place would be the Brighton express run on a Q of slant R-40s.
A close third would be a tossup between the Times Square to 72nd St. stretch and the two IRT straightaways in Manhattan (Park Ave. South and 7th Ave.).
Honorable mention goes to the Broadway express run on an N as well as the 4th Ave. dash on anything but the 75-footers.
Does anyone remember taking a Lo Volt Express on either the Lex or Bdwy 7th Ave, I used to think, especially the westside expresses between 42 and 72 or 73nd and 96 were going 100 mph.( I was a child then)
Right now it's the Brighton Express, the "Q" train, and a Slant R40.
That's rail fan heaven. Close second is the 7th Avenue line from Chambers to 14th Street. Too many hippos on the CPW run, they've ruined it.
Wayne
My favourite express has always been the 2 or 3 from Chambers up to 96 Street. I especially like the run from 42 Street to 72 Street, where there's a curve at Columbus Circle. If you're standing then you get a really neat ride. The 4 or 5 from BB to 14 Street is also a wild one.
I was in New York last month and spent much of my time on the trains. It was suggested I try the Q express in Brooklyn as I was there during a weekday when it runs, but the Q that I took ran local! I didn't have enought time to redo it - so on my next visit...
CPW used to be my favorite, when the trains there ran at a decent speed. I'd have to say the Lexington Ave. IRT is now. If I had to pick one interval between stations, I'd say 86th St. to 125th, northbound. I think it is the longest interval between stations on the line, and I like the way the trains go up to the level of the locals, then back down to a lower level, while staying in a perfectly straight line. Northbound rather than southbound because of the delay in picking up speed that southbound trains have when leaving 125th and descending to the lower level. Northbound trains are delayed this way after pulling out of 125th Bronx-bound. Neither of these delays was present 10 years ago, I don't think.
That express run, northbound from 86th to 125th, has always been fast but controversial. There was a time trains would leave 86th and literally fly downgrade and through 103rd st. In the 1960's, the roadbed was upgraded with concrete & welded rail. Trains seemed to "bottom out" when they reached the bottom of that hill! Then midway bewteen 103 and 110th, there were switches & related time signals. Trains had to come almost to a complete stop. Sometime after 1967 or 1968, those switches & signal were removed. However, the grade leaving 86th street northbound was HEAVILY timed. Thankfully, that, too, has changed. Even with the timers in place now,trains can still get up a full head of steam and, depending on conditions, come barrelling into 125th. Can recall riding with high school friends in the '60's, on a new R33 redbird. Solid train. Flying downgrade, cars banging side to side, door indicator lights blinking blue, on & off. Passengers abandoning all attempts to read there papers. And NEVER an incident! Those were the days.
Joe C.
I'll take the 7th ave IRT for two reasons:
1) I'm always running late to catch Amtrak
2) Very good chance of looking out the front!
dave
Being from Chicago, my favorite still is the Evanston Express Purple line which still does run Express between Belmont and Howard on Weekdays only.
The train realy gets cooking between N. of the Old Wilson Shop and Howard.
Last time I rode in the summer going S.B. the Operator had the train going full speed throught the curves between Howard and Granville. It was pretty cool as the train jerked before entering the straight run between Granville and Wilson.
If the CTA would only renovate the tracks around Wilson so all the trains didn't have to crawl through at 15-MPH. The Shops and Yards are gone, get ride of all the junctions!
BJ
how about the FLUSHING #7 ??!
thank you.
I finally heard that word used today as a description of a particularly offensive homeless person - on an episode of "Law & Order". So the word does exist.
It was always my understanding that it was the abbreviation for an old word, "skellum", meaning scoundrel or someone deserving to be put to death. Not that these homeless people should. I told you it was an old word.
JRC
Yes, the connotation that word had back in B'klyn had more to do with a persons' character (or lack thereof) rather than with their social status.
I had never, ever heard this word used to describe a foul-smelling homeless individual until someone here used it a couple of months ago. Until today, that is.
I was looking at the radio codes on the site and it skipped 12-4. What's the 12-4 radio code?
That means aknowledge. The person speaking on the radio understands the person on the other end.
Where can I find the already existing list of codes and possible frequencies/channels used at?
There is no 12-4,so as not to be confused with 10-4 that the police use.
As of Friday November 19th, M-4 set 1211/1212 from 1220 are in revenue service.
Have all the M-4s arrived yet?
I imagine so. I haven't seen 1220 myself, but given the rate of delivery, I believe it's about time for them to all be here.
They're all here.
I've seen sets 1215/16 and 1217/18. I'll probably see the last one, 1219/20, this week.
So long, Almond Joys. Enjoy your retirement.You'll be missed.
Hi Steve:
We'll miss the M-3's except in the hot weather. Really like the A/C
on the M-4's. Also isn't SEPTA saving muchco bucks with the OPTO operation?
Chuck
I had occasion to ride the N train between 14th and 49th sts today and notice that both express tracks, including most switches I saw, are in use ( although there is no express service). Are they deadheading trains down the express tracks just to keep them in use?
Carl M.
There have been a number of service diversions that have resulted in the tracks being used recently.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Most AM put-ins from City Hall (the ones that run light) to Astoria use the express tracks. Also the PM layups to City Hall from Astoria use these tracks. Another use is when a Q train gets rerouted to the Broadway BMT, the express tracks are generally the route taken.
I was flagging on the Willie B all week this week past, and will be tomorrow as well. Any one having any questions, feel free to ask.
Erik
Yes I have one. On Dec 15, are we going to "Take the bridge"?
Tonight, on TNN's "ECW Wrestling", several segments were filmed in the subway. Featured prominently was a N/B #6 train headed by Redbird car #8865. A pair of villains called "The Baldies" boarded this train at an elevated local station in the Bronx; it was after dark, and no station signs were visible, but it was a local station in the express zone. Later in the show, the men were in a newer car, #1658 (silver interior with the orange plastic seats), also on an elevated line presumably in the Bronx.
This was to set up a wrestling match to be held somewhere in the subway system and shown on next Friday's episode. I'm going to the car roster to see what R-type #1658 is!
#1658 is an R62A car.
#8865 is very interesting because it is an R33 car. #8865 belongs to 239 Street Yard (#2 train). Because of OPTO on #5 line, two R62A trains from #6 line are sent to #5 line in exchange for two R33 Redbird trains.
Chaohwa
Interesting...thanks!
Pelham Redbirds consist of R29s (8570-8693) and R36s (9478-9557). When an R33 Redbird is on the Pelham line, one Pelham R62A train moves to #5 line for OPTO.
Chaohwa
Okay: The Redbird is an R-33 (St. Louis Car, 1962-63), while #1658 is an R-62A (Bombadier, 1986-88).
Hey, if they were really tough wrestlers, they'd be staging the fight on one of the un-air conditioned R-33 WFs on the Flushing line...
And if they were REALLY tough they'd stage it inside a BMT Standard, with the seats going every which way and those little handles on the backs so they could bonk each others heads into them.
There is at least ONE, possibly TWO trains of R33s on the #6 line during the rush/midday period.
Wayne
Too bad they don't know the system better, or they coulda have had one of the guys come out of the graveyard next to Wilson Ave....
The "storyline" here surrounds New Jack, a "gangsta" good guy who comes back to NYC to regain his street edge. His enemies, the Baldies, are looking for him and have challenged him to a fight in the good ol' subway. Paul Heyman, the head of ECW, has a knack for exciting plots and fights, so it'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
Or better still - that would have to be none other than THE UNDERTAKER...
Wayne
But then, how are you gonna get the 'Taker to emerge from out of the floor of a MOVING train? It would be interesting if Bam Bam Bigelow still worked for ECW...some nut could bodyslam him through the floor of that train.
11/21/99
Or maybe Bam Bam could bodyslam an R-68! I'd pay to see that!
Come Dec.15,isn't there a Texas death match with labor vs. managment?
Bill Newkirk
OK ... I've stopped cussing now. The steam isn't coming out my ears any more. Wanted to put this out for comments by SubTalkers who work for the TA with members of the public. Let me know if you feel I have a case or should just suck it up. Here's what happened.
Wanted to get a copy of "The Map" yesterday. Went to five (5) token booths. At each one, I asked "Could I have a subway map, please?" I made a point of saying "please" and attempting to speak clearly through the bulletproof glass. Results:
- 2 clerks reading books shook their heads "no" without looking up or speaking.
- 2 clerks looked at me, said "no" and nothing further.
- 1 clerk said "Don't got none" nowhere near the microphone (I read his lips) and went back to counting money.
Now, maybe I'm getting old (40) and cranky, but I've worked behind a lot of counters in my time so I think I know whereof I speak. The proper respose here is to (1) look at the customer; (2) speak to the customer; and (3) say "Sorry, I'm out of them right now."
The "Sorry" doesn't have to be hugely sincere, but it makes the point that the person/organization regrets that it can't fulfill the customer's desire. And the rest of the sentence explains WHY the request can't be fulfilled. I could take away from 4 of the 5 that they might well have had maps ... but simply weren't going to give me one.
Is the point here that the general public is so unspeakably nasty to booth clerks that this is defensive? Or do they simply not give a $h!t and the customers can go whistle?
Or am I acting like a total tourist and should accept my punishment? Somehow in Guiliani's NYC, I'm less inclined to do so. Maybe he can start arresting rude token booth clerks ....
Grrrrrrrrr.
(And what's up with the maps? Being reprinted? If so, what changes?)
I don't have any comment on your specific complaint. However, there are several avenues open to you.
You can go to 370 jay St. and get your map.
You can try another booth.
You can get the booth #'s of the booths where you felt the service was inadequate and make an official complaint.
I know that there are some people in the booths who are less than dilligent but they are a very small minority. Most do a decent, consciencious job.
JV--- You must be an out of towner. You don't get anything in this city without buying something. Don't expect to walk into a restaurant and use a restroom without spending money.
From your description, it sounds like you didn't purchase any tokens, or buy a weekly metrocard, or better yet a monthly card. You were just looking for something for nothing. Passengers are now customers. Customers get service when they spend money. It's only been since the MTA began calling us Customers that they began to rack up the great surpluses.
You asked about different maps. If you want to really rub an agent the wrong way, ask for a specific dated map. I think the most recent one is September 1999, with July 1999 before that. I also have an Oct 1998, and one with no date on top. So here's what you have to do. Buy a weekly pass during rush hour and then ask for the Oct 1998 map. When you're told that they have only the Sep 1999 edition, ask the agent to check through all the maps to see if maybe they have an old one. Then you'll see service.
heypaul ... such a joker. Am I an out-of-towner? I've only lived in NYC 18 years now. And I never have problems using rest rooms in restaurants. I just walk in and act as though I belong there; no one questions me. ('Course, I'm a white guy who dresses neatly & conservatively.)
And frankly, my experience has been that many token clerks are equally surly and uncommunicative whether or not you spend money. I wrote about this one only 'cause it was so consistently rude and blatant.
Looking at the big picture, I think "service" has greatly improved recently. For one thing, with the new vending machines, I can use my credit card. For another, there are usually racks located in the vicinity of token booths with a variety of schedules and service announcements. Finally, subway maps are posted on the internet and hopefully schedules soon will be too (athough the new ones are in Acrobat format -- easy for the scanner and free to the user, but deadly slow for the user, who gets what he pays for).
All of these are new. All are improvments. And none requires a token clerk. Consider the implications of this, and you realize why token clerks are surley. Perhaps you ran into a few who didn't pass the station agent test and are staring oblivion in the face.
I'd say they're history as either token clerks or station agents--we need a lot of things, but who needs "station agents"?
But does their contract allow the TA to lay them off?
There is a no lay-off in the contract!
We do more than just push tokens- we assist customers with getting from point A to Point B. The other day A customer came to my booth and told me of a fight on the train they just exited. The customer and fight were in the second to last car. I called COntrol Center and the police were summoned (by control). They were ejected from the system and no injuries resulted.
Another time, I had a customer having a seizure at my station- I hit the alarm and EMS came to assist.
I have used the station intercom to alert customers to train delatys, General Orders, emergency reroutes, etc.
At my station, the downtown booth is not open all night. Many times customers stand by the closed booth- pounding on the booth. I see the condition and use my intercom to tell the customer to come to the uptown side.
With the deployment of MVMs our role will change- we will be doing station inspections, assisting with the MVMs, giving travel info, watching station conditions, etc.
Look at the banking industry: ATMs were to have done away with human tellers. last time I went to the bank I still saw human tellers, and lines just as long. MVMs will reduce our load but there are always people who will not use a machine- even if we do away with the tokens.
The rude station agent: Many times, due to line length and crowd conditions we can not spend as much time as we'd like with each customer. We do have other duties and if we are short at the end of our shift we must pay out of our own pockets.
People wait at the Post Office , grocery store or Bank for the human to put away the money from the last customer,and yes, they even let the human count the money given to the human.
Maps? Station Agents are surveyed by supervision as to the number of maps in their booths--usually once a day. It is left to supervision to get maps to a booth that is out of stock. The maps are obtained by supervision from various locations- and if that location is out of stock then they have to be reordered. Have you ever gone to a store and gotten a rain check? same with Transit!
I am sorry you had a bad experience.
NO RAISE THEN Unless we get BETTER CUSTOMER SERVICE!
If you really feel this way, why don't you put a real name & a real E Mail address? Are you a REAL person of your convictions or just an empty suit?
Well this guy apparently has a problem with reading comprehenson Bill. Cause if he didn't he wouldn't have made such an uninformed remark after reading 'Buff's post.
But as to productivity, we in RTO used to make do with two trips where there are now three, or three where there are now four, and the like.
Now we are to the point where crews are in the cab 10 hours a day, and seldom with a reasonable lunch on some lines. Bill, you can attest to the crap that goes on at Parsons.
If this person had read my posts recently he would have seen the detailed explainations as to how we have increased productivity to the point that safety is compromised now. That for him to demand more indicates a person who either doesn't know the issues, or chooses to ignore them.
I wish I can bring the SubTalkers on a tour of the Jamaica Center facility as it approaches it's 11th birthday around Dec. 8th. The payroll to sign in and out is at least 600 feet beyond the newstand; if your radio battery needs replacement during the day you have to make an extra trip up there; dispatchers offices are in one place with the lockers far behind it while the fire door on the E line doesn't close after numerous requests to get it fixed so the rats come into the locker & crew room area; only one crew room downstairs with 4 tables, but wait: only 2 tables have benches for people with a body the size of a 12 year old while the other 2 tables HAVE NO CHAIRS OR BENCHES AT ALL! And this facility serves 2 lines! Have to use the toilet? 2 stalls and 2 urinals used 24/7, no guarantee of toilet paper or soap (I bring down a bar of Mickey Mouse soap which I "stole" while in Disney World every so often but my supply is almost finished), with the biggest insult of all: no hot water! A hot water heater is in the rest room, but it is there for show! Especially an insult to the J guys in the winter when they return from their trips with freezing hands and wind up with icicles on them after they wash them. The entire facility has the hardware to be centrally air conditioned, yet I have been working on and off there since the summer of 1993 and it has never functioned! The facility is a slum, hell-hole, and absolute disgrace. It is my last pick there unless I can find a job which will get me off the road where I will spend my time in between moves in the dispatchers' office.
Bill, you're refering to the terminal I call THE BAT CAVE.
It's a profound testament to the utter contempt our employer holds us in.
Every line Supt. in RTO has a facilities budget. It's supposed to support things like toilet paper, and soap. There's a furniture budget too. But get this: what they don't spend, THEY KEEP! It goes toward their annual bonus.
Nice huh?
Bill, R-46: This is good info ... and would make a *GREAT* story for an enterprising transit beat reporter. I'm sure if someone printed these out and mailed them (or, hell, e-mailed them through an anonymizer) to the transit-beat reporter at Newsday (used to be Ellis Henican, I think, dunno who it is now) ... that it would make a dandy story in the paper, complete with pix, and would result in major egg on the face of the TA. Might even get the problems fixed.
After all, it's a "As union approaches a strike, some hard-working transit employees say they're being treated like animals" kinda story line. Always sells.
Remember -- P.R. (press!) may not be everything, but it's still the most effective way to generate public sympathy. Much more so than mass rallies, and assuredly much more so than a rulebook slowdown or a strike. IMHO, anyway.
Independent press? The TA owns the press!
Last time we tried that at 240th Yard on the Broadway
line. The camera crew from NY1 showed up. They and a staff
rep from the TWU shot images of filth and hazardous
conditions all over that yard.
Now for those of you who don't know, the subway is NOT a
public place legally. To photograph, or shoot video
requires that the TA authorize a permit.
The day after the story aired, NY1 lost it's subway photo
permit.
Hence: no one f*ç$ with the TA in the media.
This is why some stories don't make it onto the air, or in
print. Last Wednsday's rally? 5000 of us showed up. Barely
made the news. Post didn't ever cover it. Any story that
makes management look bad, that isn't a huge story that is
screaming for coverage will get buried.
Wrecks and injury, crime all get covered. But management
abuse, fraud, and incompetence? Never.
Remember Steve Sales? He's the motorman who was framed for a collision in which the signals were faulty. The same staff rep who led in the NY1 news crew had been in contact with a Daily News reporter about this story for few weeks last year. After one particularly heinous meeting with management he threatened to go to the news media with the story.
The story never ran, and suddenly the reporter stopped taking the staff rep's calls.
MTA: resistance is futile.
This is another reason why a strike is our only VIABLE choice.
The Post appears to be an ANTI UNION rag so i wouldn't have expected them to have covered the rally The Daily News did as did several news stations. I think all LOCAL 100 workers and families should boycott The POST if not cancel subscriptions, also since they're the ones with the stinging report calling all TA workers incompetent with regard to the miserable passing rate to recent Promotion to Train Operator tests. In several crew rooms I see a response by Willie James to the Posts report but don't recall it plastered in the newspapers?
Perhaps it is a very politically incorrect thing to say, but the neglect of employees by the TA, and the lack of media coverage, is for the same reasons they could care less about covering the lousy service LIRR gets away with.
A stuck train can screw everyone's commute, or worse, the common smoke/fires in the tunnels. But here's the very politically incorrect thing. The results of a neglectful, unaware paid off media are a result of capitalism out of control. All TV and news media should not be privately owned because they care about profit, not people, and that's the problem. That's the problem with the TA also.
TA workers and riders should be in charge of their system. That means electing (this is a democracy isn't it) the board, and putting the people in charge of their own system.
LIRR commuters should be able to vote out Mr.Pentegrast, and I've spoken to many bus drivers who think people like E.Virgil Conway are full of s***!
America is supposed to be a democracy, yet public transit in it's biggest city is in deplorable shape, well paid executives get filthy rich while the rest of us get poor, and the people who work hard and
often in terrible conditions are not heard by the media. We are headed
away from a path of government by the people, and on a path that will lead us to being ruled by a small, rich elite.
Just something to think about as we enter a new century.
And did I mention all the hidden sweatshops in NYC? A ride through Sunset Park, or on the Manhattan Bridge, or on the Pt.Washington line going through Elmhurst, passes many sweatshops. Yet nobody seems to do anything, or care, that these young girls work slave labor for all the fancy crap in Roosevelt Field. Wake up America!
Ah, a reasonable man after all.
I agree about the MTA staff. When it was created it was meant to insulate the true elected officals like the governor and the mayor form critism, and resposibilty. This way they couldn't be blamed when the subways ran poorly.
They told the public it was to keep such an important issue as public transportation "non-politcal"
What it HAS done is create an overgrown buracracy that is unresponsive to the needs of the public and answerable to no one.
I have advocated for years that the chairman of the MTA be elected like the AG or the comptroller and governor. The TA president should be appointed by the mayor at least. Say what you will about the mayor, but his organizational skills are outstanding, and I know he would appoint an excellent TA president, one who if he ran the TA like it's being run now would be looking for a new job.
But alas, it's not to be. So we suffer, commuter and employee alike.
I don't know that a ELECTED MTA Chairman or TA President would solve very much. I would think their goals would get even more short range then they already are ... not that I feel the current arangement forces them to focus on long term improvements in facilities and service. I don't have a beter option, just feel that electing them wouldn't help.
Bill & Transit Professional I've enjoyed reading your post ... very informative ... thanks for sharing.
BTW, ever think about working for a small "private" bus company ... big screen TV, pool table, lots of tables for playing cards or eating your lunch, no rats in the lavs & plunty of toliet paper.
P.S. our drivers put in a very hard day too, but at least we try to make the LONG layover pleasant for them.
Mr t__:^)
Interesting comment about short-term goals for an elected MTA chair etc. I work for one of the Fortune 500 as a project manager and have a fair number of contractors on my team - probably about 25-30%, I haven't counted lately! Anyway, most of the employees look long-term - but the interesting thing is that most of the contractors do too. They want to remain in a good, well-paying contract and many would like to be converted to regular employees. Those who look short-term don't last; their "take the money and run" attitude comes through so quickly that I don't wait for renewal time to get rid of them. I think a chairman who sets definable long-term goals and can show progress toward them, even though they are not achieved overnight, will be re-elected because the people who vote will respect and understand progress. Having a few short-term goals running parallel with the long-term ones, of course, won't hurt in that regard.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ ... I work for one of the Fortune 500 as a project manager ...]
[ ... most of the employees look long-term - but the interesting thing is that most of the contractors do too ...]
But that doesnm't seem to be the track record of "elected" officials. So would electing the MTA Chairman or TA President improve their far sightness ? On this boad we bash them all the time about their 5 Year Plans and Studies. I've come to believe that it is the elected officials that are NOT pushing/holding back financing for 2nd Ave Stubway & other extensions/enhancements to the system ... am I wrong ?
Mr t__:^)
I think you've really hit the nail on the head here. I'm just one voice, but as a member for the public I have to say that most of the pro-strike stuff I've read here strikes me as somewhere between unconvincing and offensive. Things like wanting the right to wear baseball caps to work, or the fact that Mayor Giuliani got a raise and some managers earn six figures. But I've read a couple of posts today that make much better points--posts about bloated bureacracies and inefficient management that can't provide batteries or toilet paper.
The general perception of unions at this point is people in corrupt organizations who make more than we do, can't be fired, and whine about baseball caps. Organized labor has a lot of house cleaning to do if it wants to recapture public support. The public will be sympathetic if they think your grievances are genuine, and that you've put their interests as high as your own--and the public votes.
Now here's the thing: the subways are incredibly overstaffed according to the standards of current technology. I hear lots of understandably upset protests from token clerks, conductors and operators, but the truth is that the old jobs are obsolescent. The best possible thing for the subway system right now would be an infusion of new capital to build sorely needed facilities like the Second Avenue subway, and a crash program of automation with concommitant improvements in service, comfort, and safety. Would the union be willing to refocus its efforts on rebuilding the system, knowing that many or even most current employees would need to wear different hats, if they were allowed to take home some of the productivity gains in their paychecks?
To your final question: yes, I would. But tell me, do you really think any of the gripes I have listed in recent days has been "petty"?
Because I feel I have only listed items that any reasonable person would agree to.
Well, I don't remember if you listed it, but what would you call the baseball cap issue? Or have a choice of whether to wear a summer uniform?
Other gripes seemed on the edge to me, or insufficiently document for an outsider to tell whether they were valid or not.
I wish I could give you a better answer, but it's hard to go back to check this stuff and I haven't really paid close attention to who posted what and it would be difficult to find the original messages. If you have some and want to forward them to me I'll be glad to give you my honest opinion, for what it's worth.
The ball cap is stupid and I said so at the meeting, but some people are inconsolable.
The uniform issue is legit though. When it's 67 out side in Oct and the tunnels are still 85, but you have to wear the winter uniform, it's a legit issue. A reasonable boss would say; "ok, use your judgement, whatever is comfortable, as long as it's within the uniform standard."
What's wrong with that? Management refuses to discuss the issue. But they were willing to talk about ball caps. Go figure.
What about the cops? Sarge?
[The ball cap is stupid and I said so at the meeting, but some people are inconsolable.
The uniform issue is legit though. When it's 67 out side in Oct and the tunnels are still 85, but you have to wear the winter uniform, it's a legit issue. A reasonable boss would say; "ok, use your judgement, whatever is comfortable, as long as it's within the uniform standard."
What's wrong with that? Management refuses to discuss the issue. But they were willing to talk about ball caps. Go figure.
What about the cops? Sarge?]
Unfortunately, those stupid issues are likely to make the paper. Awful PR!
I disagree about the uniform issue, although it's a bit more substantial. The sytem will simply look better if everyone is wearing the same type of uniform. As far as I know, that sort of consistency is standard in uniformed services, and if you feel bad about it, consider the monkey suits that management has to wear!
[... but it's hard to go back to check this stuff and I haven't really paid close attention to who posted what and it would be difficult to find the original messages ...]
I for one try to make it a policy of NOT remembering who said what specifically ... I'ld rather talk about the issue instead of making it personal ... except for the flamers ...
Mr t__:^)
Good policy, I think.
[Bill, R-46: This [filthy crew facilities] is good info ... and would make a *GREAT* story for an enterprising transit beat reporter. I'm sure if someone printed these out and mailed them (or, hell, e-mailed them through an anonymizer) to the transit-beat reporter at Newsday (used to be Ellis Henican, I think, dunno who it is now) ... that it would make a dandy story in the paper, complete with pix, and would result in major egg on the face of the TA. Might even get the problems fixed.]
Nice idea, but it wouldn't work in practice. Management would deny the news media access to the crew facilities. They'd say it was a matter of "security," which is one of these claims that's accepted sheep-like without question. Lacking firsthand knowledge, the media would have to rely on the workers' complaints and management's denials. That's the sort of he said/she said story that interests hardly anyone - the most likely outcome is that people will believe neither side.
Perhaps I may inform all TWU members to start carrying cameras to work with them and develop 3 copies each. One for their lawyer. One for employee copy and one for the news. Arbitration is a joke and our union leadership might mistake it for the funnies. Unfortunately, NY1 News seems to be the only outfit left standing up to Albany and the MTA as the other rags aren't capable of printing a two sided story. By the way, our friends at the Daily News must have forgotten when we stood at their picket line in 1994 as they now claim T/Os can't pass an exam or spell. Great journalism for an article based on an opinion of Joe Hofmann and not one phone call to West End Avenue.
As a follow up to Jamaica Center, what is the worst TA crew facility, and the best?
For the worst I nonminate 25 Chapel Street when I was there in the mid-1980s. We were on the top six floors -- the lower floors were abandoned and used for fires. Fires would cause all the rats to come running out of the elevator shafts. Once when the DOS was taking out the trash the ceiling of the trash room collapsed and thousands of rats came raining down on them. They demanded that trash be placed at the curb after that. Once, as a result of a fire alarm, an elevator I was riding in free-fell down to the bottom before hitting the brakes with sirens and red lights flashing. I was later told they are desinged to do that, but it scared the hell out of me. After I left, I was told there was a fire in an elevator. It went from floor to floor with no one in it, opened the doors, lit the carpet on fire, and went to the next floor.
Al least is wasn't like that Department of Social Services building where an elevator cut a couple of employees in half.
lower floors were abandoned and used for fires
????????
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[At least is wasn't like that Department of Social Services building where an elevator cut a couple of employees in half.]
I hear they're still litigating about whether the top or the bottom gets disability.
Seriously, no heads rolled for the infamous brake decision--I don't even think it made it into the Times as anything more than an unfortunate miscalculation. Doesn't leave much room for hope.
I'm glad someone noticed Josh, thanks.
But you gotta love the elevator story, setting the carpets
on fire on every floor as it passed. I laughed so hard it
hurt! So typical TA!
I nominate ALL the RTO crew facilities.
[I'm glad someone noticed Josh, thanks.
But you gotta love the elevator story, setting the carpets
on fire on every floor as it passed. I laughed so hard it
hurt! So typical TA!
I nominate ALL the RTO crew facilities.]
It's not just the TA. When I was a kid I had a summer job working on a research project for the (then) Office of the Aging. We worked out of an old building on Tompkins Square Park, and one day the elevator inspector mentioned casually on his way out that the cable was about to snap . . .
No one was as surprised as we!
To be fair, it wasn't the A**Ho*e reporters that were on strike at the News, it was the delivery drivers and the pressmen. I'm sure they are still appreciative and will honor your picket line.
[Remember -- P.R. (press!) may not be everything, but it's still the most effective way to generate public sympathy. Much more so than mass rallies, and assuredly much more so than a rulebook slowdown or a strike. IMHO, anyway.]
Agreed. Businessmen care about money, but politicians care about votes. If there's a really embarassing headline, you can bet the TA hears about it!
So then the question becomes: Which Sup't is responsible for the upkeep of the facility? The J guy or the E guy?
[So then the question becomes: Which Sup't is responsible for the upkeep of the facility? The J guy or the E guy?]
I bet I know the answer - the J guy says it's the E guy and the E guy says it's the J guy.
EXACTLY! How did you ever guess?
whats so disgraceful about Parsons/archer?
Cycle back in the thread. You'll see why it's called the BAT CAVE by crews.
It's the new guy's job until he/she figures out they're being played. By that time there's another new guy to transfer over the "responsibility".
I understand the E Superintendent is in charge.
Hey, a 65 percent rise in ridership with a decline in workforce -- I'll take that productivity gain any day.
Bill, small minded and scared people post as MR No Raise, so pay the small brained individual no mind. This Forum does well without the cheesy red necked comments posted by the likes of MR No Raise..
What you're going to end up with is "station agents" who do nothing.
Customer info can be provided by phone--in any number of languages.
That's not to say that there's not useful stuff to do--safety patrols, etc. But sitting in a station doing nothing isn't, and if somebody's too scared to use an automated machine, well, tough--let them walk. Even the automated systems I've been on that still have token clerks (because of union regs, of course) don't actually have them sell tokens anymore. They just sit and watch, and intervene if there's a problem.
One thing has not been said. I buy my Metro card with Transit Checks. You can't put those into vending machines, you need a human to sell you your card. (Unless they plan on modifying the machines to take transit checks.)
You can get a Metrocard directly from Transitchek.
RIGTH ... they come in two flavors, paper & MC.
Mr t__:^)
Why not? Some kind of scrip, or a special card.
Another thing I've noticed is that the machines don't seem to have any provision for the handicapped or elderly. I saw something that said people had to go somewhere to buy a special metrocard? In their wheelchairs and on their crutches?
Seems to me there should be some kind of slot for student/elderly/handicapped ID cards, assuming we want to offer all those services (which apart from the student service strike me as a crock, since they subsidize without regard for need).
"Seems to me there should be some kind of slot for student/elderly/handicapped ID cards, assuming we want to offer all those services (which apart from the student service strike me as a crock, since they subsidize without regard for need)."
Those cards are exactly the same except for color, they'd fit in the slots.
Student cards, as much as I want to see them hold balances for express busses, off hour usage and obviating the need to always add coins for half fare usage, do not allow the holding of balances and therefore are useless in MVMs.
RFMs must be ordered through the mail for verification purposes, but they can be refilled at an MVM, even with unlimited rides.
The machines have a headphone jack for the hearing impaired who I would assume use the ATM keypad to select options.
Sounds reasonable, except for the student cards--and that headphone jack!
I know, they should have had speakers. Maybe one day I'll try the headphones.
As for the student cards, it has nothing to do with the MVMs directly, it has to do with student card policy. I don't see any reason why they can't hold a balance. If they did, I wouldn't have to carry around that Pay-per-ride card and could carry around my Fun Pass that I keep just in case. My MC holder only holds two cards.
By policy the TA doesn't want any money on the student card.
Mr t__:^)
That's what I just said. You needn't have reiterated it.
[If they did, I wouldn't have to carry around that Pay-per-ride card and could carry around my Fun Pass that I keep just in case. My MC holder only holds two cards.]
Shouldn't they have an "agony pass" for days you aren't doing something fun? I mean, what would you say if you had to buy a fun pass and your destinations were the Memorial cancer clinic and the IRS?
I had to use an unlimited ride card to go have toe surgery last year. I assume if the same thing happened this year, then I'd have to use a Fun Pass (I can explain why, but it isn't that important) for something that's definitely NOT FUN!!!
I suppose you could call it a fun pass if you bang your funny bone.
Rim shot!
B-U-T the brain surgeons who came up with it didn't think/want regular customers to use the Fun Pass, so it's only tourest & other occosional riders, like me, who are suppose to be having FUN while riding the subways :-)
If you buy a "single ride ticket" you can always rip it up after that trip that you don't want to be reminded of.
(Been hanging around Doug a.k.a. Mr BMT too long, i.e. trying to make jokes)
Mr t__:^)
PS--or is it for the blind? That would make much more sense, if the controls allowed for simple operation.
The headphones are only for the blind. Those able to see use the touch screens.
There is also a "Mail & Ride" version of the RFM for Sr/Disabled that comes two flavors (value & unlimited). Once started you never have to go back to the Token Booth. Just get a new card every year.
(I assume they automatically send you a replacement & kill the old one, i.e. put it on the "negitive list").
Mr t__:^)
Or the old one expires? How does the Mail and Ride work?
Subway-Buff: Thx for the response. I was hoping that someone on the other side of the glass would answer.
[All of these [MVMs, online maps, etc.] are new. All are improvments. And none requires a token clerk. Consider the implications of this, and you realize why token clerks are surley. Perhaps you ran into a few who didn't pass the station agent test and are staring oblivion in the face.]
I might be mistaken about this, but as far as I know all token clerks will be transferred to station-agent duties once MVMs become the sole in-station fare sales methods. None of them are at risk of being re-engineered.
I know that if I were a token clerk, I'd be ecstatic about the change in duties. No more being locked up in one of those coffin-like booths, and no more responsibility for cash.
True, and I don't agree that we don't need manned stations. You need them for:
1) Passenger security.
2) Revenue security (turnstile jumping)
3) Vandalism security.
4) Directions.
5) Help if there is problem with the vending machine or turnstile.
All this is enabled by having the station personnel out of the booth.
I'd rather eliminate the conductors than the station personnel.
And, I stand by my suggestion that the LIRR/MetroNorth go with fare control rather than on-board conductors. With video cameras, spot checks, and hellacious fines for getting caught without a ticket, I believe a modest level of fare control at the platform entrance would work, even if a skell could walk down the tracks and hop up. Having manned stations would also help. On these lines, the unmanned stations are depressing.
[And, I stand by my suggestion that the LIRR/MetroNorth go with fare control rather than on-board conductors. With video cameras, spot checks, and hellacious fines for getting caught without a ticket, I believe a modest level of fare control at the platform entrance would work, even if a skell could walk down the tracks and hop up. Having manned stations would also help. On these lines, the unmanned stations are depressing.]
Or just go with POP like many other commuter rail systems. That would eliminate all the need for fare controls at the stations and would allow a reduction in the number of conductors/ticket takers needed on the trains (some would still be needed for safety purposes, just as Southwest Airlines needs stewardesses even though they don't serve meals).
NO Keep Fare Control!!
We have enough "unwantables" in the system as is. Getting rid of fare control will allow more into the system and into places that they shouldn't be (Closed stations to sleep).
[NO Keep Fare Control!!
We have enough "unwantables" in the system as is. Getting rid of fare control will allow more into the system and into places that they shouldn't be (Closed stations to sleep).]
I was thinking of POP on the commuter rail lines, not the subway. POP probably wouldn't work on the subways because of the massive passenger volumes encountered at many times. During rush hours, it's nearly impossible just to walk through some cars. Fare inspectors would never be able to function under those circumstances.
(some would still be needed for safety purposes, just as Southwest Airlines needs stewardesses even though they don't serve meals)
Why? A train isn't an airplane--no inflatable escape ramps, oxygen masks, explosive fuel. If one driver is adequate to assure the safety of the passengers on a ten car train, does it really require several people on a somewhat longer one? I don't think so--I question whether *anyone* is really necessary if the proper systems are installed, though I remain undecided on that point because of the obvious hazards of the tracks.
You can have cameras and security monitors every few stations. Intercoms would be available in case the passenger needs assistance. At the MVM bank at Sheepshead Bay in Brooklyn, the agent is on duty only in the morning rush, an intercom contacts the agent at the 24 hour booth on Sheepshead Bay Road. I doubt that the agent would physically go to the passenger on Voorhies Avenue to help him even if they didn't have to be at the booth. In that case, it doesn't matter whether the agent was there or at Brighton Beach, Coney Island, 370 Jay, 2 Broadway, wherever.
Seems to me we should have 100% camera/VCR coverage of stations and trains. It would save money on policing and reduce crime at the same time.
Cameras dont stop people. At one station where I worked there is an underpass with cameras. people use the underpass for many purposes. When I see something I use my intercom and they act surprised! One time, they even spray painted my cameras I was watching my screens (poor resolution)and saw the screens go white at the same time. It took maintainers 4 hours to get there to clean the cameras ( after convincing supervision that the cameras needed a service call, and it took a visit by supervision to confirm, that the cameras were spray painted.
Many times, the repeat "offenders" hide outside camera range-- I have had a fare beater problem at that stationand when I challenge the fare beater they hide outside camera range and then make a mad dash for the train- timing their run so they enter the train as the doorsd are closing (preventinga copy that may be present from nabbing the fare beater.)
Yes- I have lucked out and had a cop on the train who promptly gave the fare beater a present.
Cameras should be color, have big blinking lights on them like the ones that stores use to notify shoplifters that they're there, use LCD's rather than tubes so they don't burn, cover everything, and most important of all they should each go to a VCR. I'm thinking of the recent article where cameras in the cabs reduced robberies by 60%.
I don't think any one thing works, or anything works 100%--but once the message gets out that the cops have access to videotapes of just about anything and respond immediately if a camera's out, I think crime will go down.
BTW, as far as fare evasion is concerned, I've never understood why outside of a few very crowded stations they didn't just install full hight turnstyles like the ones they use in unattended stations.
It has been shown that even unsupervised, most people will diligently pay their fare and cameras would help that even more. I doubt enough people would beat the fare at some stations at certain times to justify supervision, especially when it's doubtful the agent will chase after the beater any more than somebody monitoring the camera from a central station.
The PATH stations operate with just a camera.
I'd be more concerned with crime and vandalism than fare evasion; as I said, where that's a problem full height turnstiles would solve it.
The question is whether these station agent tasks aren't more efficiently served through other means. For example, it makes no sense to have someone answering questions occasionally when a phone can be installed. Vandalism and crime and skell rousting are always a concern, but cameras and strategic patrols and stakeouts could do just as good a job of prevention in most locations; after all, much or most of a station is out of view of the clerk anyway.
Systems like PATH and BART do perfectly well without station attendants of any kind. There is so much that needs to be done on the system to make it safe, fast, comfortable and effective that it seems inexcusable to me to be spending money on what is in truth a "what do we do with these people who we aren't allowed to lay off until people get the message and we can finally work something out" strategy.
Systems like PATH and BART do perfectly well without station attendants of any kind.
BART has, or at least used to have, station attendants. They don't, of course, sell tickets or anything, but they do (presumably) help passengers who need help, and keep an eye on the station. The Washington Metro has the same kind of station attendants.
-- Tim
BART has, or at least used to have, station attendants. They don't, of course, sell tickets or anything, but they do (presumably) help passengers who need help, and keep an eye on the station. The Washington Metro has the same kind of station attendants.
From my memories of living in SF, they spend most of their time in little booths by the turnstyles, answering questions like "How do I get to ...?" and "How come the turnstyle is rejecting my farecard?" Once in awhile I'd see them by the farecard vending machines, but that's about it. They're essentially staffing an information booth.
Right, but they *do* help keep an eye on what's happening in the station. And this is contrary to Josh's assertion that BART runs its stations without any attendants. They don't.
[Right, but they *do* help keep an eye on what's happening in the station. And this is contrary to Josh's assertion that BART runs its stations without any attendants. They don't.]
In which case, I'm delighted to say I was wrong. My recollection was that the stations didn't have attendants for BART, but that the Muni Metro turnstyles did, and in SF proper the stations were shared. At least there was no one I could go to to get a refund when those )#*$*@ ticket machines ate up my money. Anyone?
In which case, I'm delighted to say I was wrong. My recollection was that the stations didn't have attendants for BART, but that the Muni Metro turnstyles did, and in SF proper the stations were shared. At least there was no one I could go to to get a refund when those )#*$*@ ticket machines ate up my money. Anyone?
SUCH LANGUAGE! ;-)
It sometimes used to happen, when I lived in DC, that I would enter a station and notice that there was no station attendant in sight. That didn't feel so good. I don't know how they handle toilet breaks and such, but that could be why the station attendant wasn't around when you needed one. (They should have had either a sign, "Back in 3 minutes," or another person who could be there, IMO.)
My memories of riding BART aren't that clear, but I do have the videotape in the "World Metro Systems" series that treats BART, and I distinctly remembered that they interviewed a station attendant on that tape.
BTW, there is currently a TV commercial running here in Sweden that is set entirely in BART stations and on a BART train.
-- Tim
In which case, I'm delighted to say I was wrong. My recollection was that the stations didn't have attendants for BART, but that the Muni Metro turnstyles did, and in SF proper the stations were shared.
Actually the stations are fairly separate. They sit on top of each other, and use the same entrance stairs and mezzanine level, IIRC, but have separate turnstyle entrances, with separate staffed booths.
They also have separate fare mechanisms. It has always irritated me that Muni Metro requires a dollar in change and doesn't take BART Cards ... or at least didn't a couple of years ago, the last time I rode it. NYC is definitely better off with a single MetroCard here.
At least there was no one I could go to to get a refund when those )#*$*@ ticket machines ate up my money. Anyone?
Those machines were always quite reliable for me. In the year I lived in SF and in 20 years of sporadic BART ridership, I've never had a machine eat my money. Sometimes they're out of service, but never actually lost money. Don't know if the agents issue refunds, though.
You make a good point about money-eating machines. I'm curious, in NYC, if a token booth clerk can do anything if a MVM eats your money. My bet is that they can't, or that at best they give you a form to fill out, or a phone number to call to get a form mailed ... and I *won't* go into the attitude you may get as well.
Anyone know (Eugenius?) what you do if a MVM eats your money?
When an MVM jammed the last dollar of a $15 card I tried to buy at Columbus Circle, then the persons working there got it out for me with a screwdriver, but by then the transaction expired and it printed out a receipt that detailed the failed transaction with $14 inserted. They made me fill out a small form, I kept the bottom and mailed it with the receipt in a pre-paid envelope. I doubt the agent would DE-jam the last bill, but I'm sure you could write that as a note when you send the refund thing because the person who comes by to fix the machine would figure out that the jammed bill is from the last transaction, which failed, and was not counted. I got a check for $14 mailed from the TA.
Also, this was when they had people working the machines at Columbus Circle, now they only work machines when they're new and give out the MC holders.
[[Actually the stations are fairly separate. They sit on top of each other, and use the same entrance stairs and mezzanine level, IIRC, but have separate turnstyle entrances, with separate staffed booths.]]
That's correct. For the Muni/BART stations on Market Street downtown, the Muni booth is on the west end of the Mezzanine and BART is on the east end (Usually with a hand-made "Not Muni" sign in the window, right under the BART logo; the Muni Booth hand-made sign usually says "Muni only, not BART).
The BART escelators/stairs go down TWO levels in one stretch, past the Muni platforms, and are separated by bars the whole distance.
I have always used a Muni 7-day Unlimited Ride pass, which has to be shown to the Booth attendant (or bus/streetcar/cable car operator) for entry. The equipment at the Muni turnstyles is different than BART's. There are some combination passes available, which have to be flashed at the booth/bus driver, called Regional BART Plus Tickets:
http://www.bart.org/riding/tickets/bartplus.htm
An aside:
For info on the BART extension to SFO and the South Bay Area, see:
http://www.bart.org/westbay/about/index.htm
The SFO station will be in the new International Terminal, and will connect there with the SFO AirTrain, also under construction.
Per official bulletin:
if I lose Money- check MVM for recipt, see Station Agent(may be in the booth), COmpl;ete MVM problem form and mail. MetroCard Customer Service will contact you within 10 days.
if I diont get my card back- same steps as above.
Lanugages:59th(IND)Italian and French. 68th(IRT)-Chinesee and Russian.
No info on languages at other locations. (English and Spanish at all locations.)
[Lanugages:59th(IND)Italian and French. 68th(IRT)-Chinesee and Russian. No info on languages at other locations. (English and Spanish at all locations.)]
Today I saw an ATM that had *six* available languages, at least two more choices than I've ever seen before. It was at the mall in Waterbury, CT (we went up there for Thanksgiving at my mother's house and decided to stop off at the mall on our way back). MVMs obviously aren't the same as ATMs, but I would presume that it's possible to offer six or even more language choices.
By the way, the languages on the ATM were English, Spanish, French, Italian, Polish and Portugese, which are pretty much appropriate given Waterbury's ethnic makeup.
JV--- somewhat on the serious side. About a month ago I was looking for the Sept 1999 map to send to Ian, one of the guys who posts here from Toronto.
I went to a number of token booths, and asked for a map and was given one without any problem. It took a couple of booths to find the new map. I even asked for a Brooklyn Bus Map, actually without buying any tokens either.
Now I dress quite casually and far from neat, as I frequently don't change my clothes or bathe for weeks at a time. I didn't have any trouble getting a map, whereas I do have a lot of trouble using a bathroom in a restaurant, or actually even getting into a restaurant.
I also have no trouble getting an entire subway car to myself, even during rush hour. So appearances can be convincing, whatever that means.
[So here's what you have to do. Buy a weekly pass during rush hour and then ask for the Oct 1998 map. When you're told that they have only the Sep 1999 edition, ask the agent to check through all the maps to see if maybe they have an old one. Then you'll see service.]
And hear a wide selection of bad words :-)
OLD MAPS: Per official Bulletin we are to dispose of old maps.
(And if we do not have the latest map we are to alert supervision that we need the September 1999 Map and pursuant to the bulletin we are disposing of the July 1999 Maps.)
In August I got a 1997 vintage Bronx bus map at Pelham Parkway on the Dyre.
Please don't take the lack of maps or the agents' poor attitude (in your eyes) to heart. They were probably asked the same question numerous times that day, and are simply frustrated of not having maps for the people who asked. I'm positive that some other riders, when politely told no maps were availiable, some customers got surly with that clerk, something the clerk had no control over, and was not his/her fault! After a few people are rude to an agent, that agent will tend not to to be too kind to anybody after a few years on the job. It is just human nature. I don't know if you have ever had a job dealing directly one on one with the public. It is a most difficult job. Again, you start out nice, then when a few people get surly to you, you start to get just as hard assed. They start complaining to you about things. They will tell you to tell Your boss. If you do, the boss will tell you "If you don't like it, quit." This is precisely the reason why TA people take promotions, TO GET AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC.
I don't know if you have ever had a job dealing directly one on one with the public. It is a most difficult job. Again, you start out nice, then when a few people get surly to you, you start to get just as hard assed.
I worked my way through university as a bank teller. Trust me, I know about hostile, suspicious, scared, surly customers!
But it should hardly be news to anyone who takes a token-clerk job that people aren't gonna be all that polite on the other side of the glass. It's NYC. My point is that part of the job ought to be a minimal level of courtesy. I wrote the post because I got FIVE (5) unacceptable responses in one day. It's one of the few times in 18 years in NYC I've wanted an automatic weapon.
And it hardly helps that (a) we're looking through bulletproof glass; (b) we can't hear what the clerk is saying; and (c) the clerk isn't even LOOKING at us. They may not feel it, but the clerk has all the power and we the PAYING public are reduced to begging to be treated like humans by surly people who control our fate. That breeds deep resentment.
This is precisely the reason why TA people take promotions, TO GET AWAY FROM THE PUBLIC.
Understood. But to repeat, it should hardly be news that the public is not going to be polite. Even if the paying customers aren't polite, the staff should be. At the bank, I had to be polite til my teeth hurt. If I hadn't been, I would have been replaced. The same ought to apply to TA staff.
JV-- At least once a week I take my bicycle into Manhattan by subway. I have to ask the clerks to open the gates when I go in and open the slam gate when I go out. I have never had trouble. When I go in I wait in line and ask them to open the gate after I put a token in the turnstile. On the way out, I either press the button on the slam gate, or get their attention and they always open the gate. It's a rough job, and I think after having one or two co-workers shot at or firebombed and murdered, they should have some respect for a confining and out in front of it job. Are they perfect? No
Are you perfect? No, especially if you can imagine doing something with an automatic weapon. Now, I know you were just angry and frustrated, but listen to the conductors and train operators who report being spit on and attacked by customers. I was looking out the front window around Prospect Park many years ago and had a heavy cement block thrown at the front window and thank god the wire mesh held, otherwise I'd be typing on a braille typewriter now.
heypaul: The automatic weapon was hyperbole, and perhaps inappropriate. My point was to illustrate the complete powerlessness that riders -- or paying customers -- have in the face of massive rudeness by a person who has something you need. That produces huge frustration and anger.
This becomes a chicken-and-egg discussion pretty quickly. I absolutely agree that NYC riders are rude and do awful things, though that's not limited to TA employees (ask any toll-taker about red-hot coins, etc.).
My point remains: The representative of the service provider (TA) should be consistenly civil *EVEN IF THE CUSTOMER ISN'T*. I think NYers would respond well to a consistent, long-term politeness and civility campaign on the part of TA employees who have any contact with us, the paying public. I hate to sound like Guiliani on all this, but New York can actually be a polite and decent place, and there's no reason to accept any less on the part of our transit providers.
That said, apologies for the automatic weapon reference.
Agreed. It's a customer service organization and the customer is always right. But civil service clerks are surly in general--whether because they aren't afraid of being fired, or their bosses don't care, or because of the way they're treated I don't know.
One thing I have noticed about clerks in NYC is that they don't seem to have been taught some basic principles of how to get along with people civilly in such a situation. What's almost always missing from the picture is an expression of concern, an indication that the customer is indeed first--whether this is or isn't the case. Explanations. Apologies. Smiles. "I'm terribly sorry, sir, but they're printing new maps and the dorks ran out of the old ones! I'll tell you what--do you come here frequently? I'll make sure to save a new one just for you." Total nonsense, but you've left a customer happy rather than mad.
Couldn't have said it better ... exactly my point. Whether or not it's genuinely felt doesn't matter (see Miss Manners) as much as the formality of indicating that the organization regrets that it can't fulfill the customer's desire.
Agreed. It's a customer service organization and the customer is always right. But civil service clerks are surly in general--whether because they aren't afraid of being fired, or their bosses don't care, or because of the way they're treated I don't know.
One thing I have noticed about clerks in NYC is that they don't seem to have been taught some basic principles of how to get along with people civilly in such a situation. What's almost always missing from the picture is an expression of concern, an indication that the customer is indeed first--whether this is or isn't the case. Explanations. Apologies. Smiles. "I'm terribly sorry, sir, but they're printing new maps and the dorks ran out of the old ones! I'll tell you what--do you come here frequently? I'll make sure to save a new one just for you." Total nonsense, but you've left a customer happy rather than mad.
The biggest problem is hiring people that don't work well with the public. This is a rampant problem all over, not just in the TA. Human robots who hate dealing with people are in jobs that require good people skills. How many times have you called the customer service phone number for anything you were having a problem with, or just had some questions and got someone on the phone with a rotten attitude. People who can't work well with people should not have jobs dealing with the public.
[The biggest problem is hiring people that don't work well with the public. This is a rampant problem all over, not just in the TA. Human robots who hate dealing with people are in jobs that require good people skills. How many times have you called the customer service phone number for anything you were having a problem with, or just had some questions and got someone on the phone with a rotten attitude. People who can't work well with people should not have jobs dealing with the public.]
And yet when I was living in San Francisco everybody was sickeningly nice. Some of this is New York, and some of this is I think a school system that doesn't require politeness of its pupils. But I think these attitudes can be changed through training, of management as well as staff, since people who are barked at inevitably end up barking at others. Because my mother worked in that area, I know of many cases where employees have been trained in cross-cultural sensitivity, and one where tough students in a NYC public school were trained in etiquette. In all cases the students were extremely grateful for what they took as useful tips on how to get by.
One of the sadder things I've witnessed here in the City is employees from tough backgrounds who don't understand why they're passed over for promotion, when all they're really missing are some basic lessons in a-- licking! The employee who talks back to her boss, or talks with another clerk while her customers are waiting, will earn minimum wage forever.
And yet when I was living in San Francisco everybody was sickeningly nice. Some of this is New York, and some of this is I think a school system that doesn't require politeness of its pupils. But I think these attitudes can be changed through training, of management as well as staff, since people who are barked at inevitably end up barking at others. Because my mother worked in that area, I know of many cases where employees have been trained in cross-cultural sensitivity, and one where tough students in a NYC public school were trained in etiquette. In all cases the students were extremely grateful for what they took as useful tips on how to get by.
One of the sadder things I've witnessed here in the City is employees from tough backgrounds who don't understand why they're passed over for promotion, when all they're really missing are some basic lessons in a-- licking! The employee who talks back to her boss, or talks with another clerk while her customers are waiting, will earn minimum wage forever.
You can teach and train people all you want, and all that you're going to get is false forced behavior. Its all in the attitude. You can teach someone manners, but you can't teach someone to be a people person. It is something that must come naturally. Of course, attitude can be changed. Put yourself in the other person's shoes. Treat the other person as you would want to be treated. If one person bites your head off, you don't do that to the next person. He didn't do anything to you. You can't get even with the previous customer by screwing the next customer. One more thing. Maybe that customer that bit your head off was having a real bad day and lost it. Maybe the next time you see that same customer, he will be sweet as sugar.
I think part of any successful training program of this sort consists of attitude adjustment, generally by putting the trainee in the customer's shoes. And you're right, attitude is a real part of the problem. Someone who's sullen and hostile, as ghetto residents are apt to be, will leave a negative impression whatever they say.
I think this stuff *is* susceptible to training, as various self-improvement and sales courses demonstrated long ago. You can't turn Richard Nixon into FDR, but you can make a difference. Frequently people just have to learn about the expectations that others have.
I think this stuff *is* susceptible to training, as various self-improvement and sales courses demonstrated long ago. You can't turn Richard Nixon into FDR, but you can make a difference. Frequently people just have to learn about the expectations that others have
Good point.
How many times have you called the customer service phone number for anything you were having a problem with, or just had some questions and got someone on the phone with a rotten attitude. People who can't work well with people should not have jobs dealing with the public.
I think part of the problem with 'customer service' lines is that the management will hire rude phone drones because they just don't want to hear about customer complaints in the first place.
CH
The company I work for is customer-driven, and we differentiate ourselves through our customer service. Our phones are answered by people. I'm on the phone all day with customers, and while I rarely have to deal with someone who's really upset, it does happen. We're taught not to take it personally and let the person vent.
When McDonald's opened their first restaurant in Moscow, prospective employees underwent training in customer relations; i. e., politeness. This was almost unheard of in the former Soviet Union. When my uncle visited us from then-Soviet occupied Lithuania in 1980, he saw a lot of things which were difficult for him to grasp (well-stocked stores, no lines, automobiles FOR SALE), especially polite store clerks. When my father asked him if anyone back home would believe any of that, my uncle replied they'd lock him up in a psychiatric ward.
Getting back on topic, I've never had any problems with station agents, although I did get chewed out once for not waiting until the person ahead of me was taken care of. IIRC, I heard an A train pulling into 42nd St. and didn't want to miss it.
Maps: If we are out of stock we are supposed to give the customer a map request form that they can leave at ANY booth and a map will be mailed to them free of charge. I have given many a form to a customer along with "I'm sorry, we are out of maps. If you will fill this out and leave it at any booth we'll mail you a map for free". They take the form and start cussing about how bad we are, how lousy, etc.
I have at time run out of map request forms and have gotten strange rermarks from supervision when I ask for map request forms!
If the local store is out of their big item they ask for the raincheck and dont gripe. If the supermarket changes checkout persons, they wait for the new person to take over. In transit we must try to change shifts while still selling! If we are out or ask them to "please wait, we are changing shifts" it is "bad service"- WHY the double standard.
Perhaps because people are angry at the level of service overall? It's no secret that government organizations are pretty intensely crappy at keeping locations supplied with basic things like schedules and maps, an incredibly trivial activity. How would people at a bank feel if there were no deposit slips?
Truth is, I'd be mad if I were handed a "map request form" myself. I don't want to spend an eternity mailing something off to get something that should be in the station.
In cases like this, the front line employees take the brunt because in the eyes of the public they represent the organization. And maybe you've answered the question about why government clerks--whether at the DMV or the IRS or what have you--are so often surly. They're being yelled at for what in many cases is the fault of others. And I think the trick is to take a cue from President Roosevelt, and let the customer know that you're on his side. It's not just a matter of apologies, and one of the things you have to put up with is the fact that the customer has to vent his pent-up anger and you have to "yes sir" him until it all rolls out and you can make him your friend.
They do it well in those old movies--you know, the ones where somebody is yammering and the employee is always being nice and saying "yes, sir, of course sir."
Though in truth I'd probably kill some of the people I've seen at token booths . . . particularly the ones who want an entire description of the subway system in some unknown language while the line backs up around the block!
If you were asking for Carol Brady (Mrs. Brady of the Brady Bunch) at each and every token booth you are sadly mistaken BUT on the other hand a majority of Station Agents provide above average customer service. COMMON SENSE on the CUSTOMER side of the window would help everyone even your fellow riders. IF you are making a purchase KNOW what your are going to buy and have your money ready( I don't mean fly down the stairs to the window with your money clutching at your fist) most people wait on a line and by the time they're at the window to be served they have to dig into their pocket book, wallet what ever. Most folks have an idea of where they are travelling if you are going to arrive at a booth after waiting on a long line DID you bother to stop at the map posted on the wall and have SOME idea of where you are going to be GOING? even long time city residents have no idea of how to get to where they want by subway so lets not knock the out of towner! each and every person is entitled to GOOD if not excellent customer service but good forbid an agent has to answer one or two questions while their is a line! even in the most busiest situation EVERYONE is due their respect to have their question answered most of the rudeness now comes from YOUR FELLOW RIDERS not the station agent so put that in your pipe and smoke it if you have a problem for most situations answering a question and doing a transaction are no problem but now the chance of mishandling a CASH transaction is another problem but that is another matter i do not wish to get into . AS for me I've never had a problem dealing with the public and I am greatful to be away from the booth and in another title. I still have no problem answering questions, like I said alittle COMMON SENSE can make everyones day a whole lot easier
I have had stuff thrown at the booth- One day some guy threw a bottleof fruit juice at the booth. I saw it coming and closed the window but the liquid flooded the booth, soaking the paper money,making the coins sticky, and soaking me. I had to try to clean up the mess while still waiting on customers (and I did.) I paged my cleaner who assisted. (Fortunately the cleaner was on the station and my intercom did work.) Some stations dont have intercoms (or they are at another booth). Another customer wanted more than just courtesy- they wanted more than friendship. I did not react and took a pair of vinyl gloves and threw the sealed,wrapped package in the trash. I just told them " Thank you for riding MTA New York City Transit. Have a nice day!"I got profanity! (still did not react)
It is dangerous for motormen to enter stations with their side windows open. Why? I've had lit cigarettes thrown, miscellaneous objects thrown, liquid/soda/beer cans thrown. It's really nice when somebody spits at your windshield and the slop dribles down.
On Saturday a conductor on the 15:25 Dyre got some kind of liqiud thrown in his face as the train came to a stop at Simpson Street. The Conductor wanted EMS at the scene but Control Center only cared about moving the Train. The Train moved out with in 5 Minutes. I did not hear about the train being Discharged but the conductor was taken to 149 St Grand Concouse which is Mott tower to wait for the TSS which was at E 180 waiting for the 15:35 Dyre who went BIE at Gun Hill Road. If I was that Train Operator I would have Discharged the Train and waited there for EMS and not move the train. I don't care how backed up the service is. All I care about is helping My partner.
In the future, write up the superintendant or dispatcher on a G2 if there is a refusal to call for appropriate assistance. These charges are serious in misconduct if found guilty and enough of them are filed, they may result in a class action lawsuit on behalf of those being scapegoated by doing so. Don't be afraid of the rat on the other end of the line.
About a month ago some kids threw honey bar-b-qued chicken at me getting my hair,uniform and the cab covered in the sauce, why because it was a fun thing to do I guess
I had things thrown at me too. Luckly I had my window closed when someone tossed a beer bottle at my cab. The glass shattered all over the platform. But what I hate the most is the windows on the R62A just fall open makeing us a Easy target.
yup, was riding in the front window of a #3 entering franklin ave, when some animal threw something with loads of ketchup at the train. made quitea mess on the front window. yuck.
F*&%#@n Ay! Like I said, only certain calls to them warrant EMS or police calls. I would have done the same thing........after calling 911 from a pay phone.
Quote TA stickers and buttons: "WE'RE SERIOUS ABOUT SAFETY!"
But only when it's convienient.
[And it hardly helps that (a) we're looking through bulletproof glass; (b) we can't hear what the clerk is saying; and (c) the clerk isn't even LOOKING at us. They may not feel it, but the clerk has all the
power and we the PAYING public are reduced to begging to be treated like humans by surly people who control our fate. That breeds deep resentment.]
You may have a point with regard to statement (a). I've long suspected that rude clerks - who are *not* remotely close to the majority - feel they can get away with their attitudes because they are ensconsed in these fortified booths. Partly it's because they don't have to worry about getting a knuckle sandwich from irate customers. But somehow it goes beyond simple physical safety. Being physically separated from the customers - I'm in here, you're out there - may give them a feeling of superiority. Arrogance through isolation, if you were.
I am certainly hoping that the booths will be abolished once MVMs become the universal fare-sales method. Booths, with their sense of isolation, can be justified now because the clerks handle money. At least that's the common view; I disagree, and merely point out that most store clerks handle plenty of money and are right out in the open. Why should subway cleks have more protection? If the TA's so concerned about losing money in robberies, install drop safes like most convenience stores. At any rate, even according to the paranoid viewpoint station agents won't need protection in the MVM era because they won't handle money. So get rid of the booths, and make them interact with customers face-to-face ... with no bulletproof glass between them. I'll bet we'll see marked improvements in customer service.
Even after MVMs become the only way ( in my opinion this will nevere happen- people still use humans at the bank!) there will be the need for the booth for communications such as calling for police, fire, EMS, etc.
The last training material I've seen is "our role will change but the booth will remain and we will continue to sell tokens and farecards"
A drop safe has been mentioned- we already have a drop safe in the booth and use the safe for our deposit.
An exact fare program I believe would not work-- people wont go to the stopre to buy something to get change--they'll just jump
[You may have a point with regard to statement (a). I've long suspected that rude clerks - who are *not* remotely close to the majority - feel they can get away with their attitudes because they are ensconsed in these fortified booths. Partly it's because they don't have to worry about getting a knuckle sandwich from irate customers. But somehow it goes beyond simple physical safety.]
I also suspect that in the TA and other civil service type bureacracies, the rude people are foul because they know they can't be fired.
I agree that dealing with the public is no bargain. My father in law was a lineman and foreman for the telephone company, but late in his career there was less need for that line of work, so he was put to work in customer service. He advises everyone -- whatever you do, get a job that doesn't require dealing with the public.
Here in NY especially. I benefit from a number of people who do voluntary work -- those who run the soccer league and girl scouts for my kids, the church choir, put on Breakfast with Santa at the school, etc. I'm grateful for what I get. Recently, I've overheard a number of different people complaining that this or that is just not good enough -- even though they contribute nothing themselves. Putting down volunteers! Imagine how those folks act toward those who are getting paid.
I agree that dealing with the public is no bargain. My father in law was a lineman and foreman for the telephone company, but late in his career there was less need for that line of work, so he was put to work in customer service. He advises everyone -- whatever you do, get a job that doesn't require dealing with the public.
Not everybody has it in them to deal with the public. It takes a special person. For that special person, dealing with the public is so natural, they can't see themselves in jobs that have no public contact. These are the people who know how to diffuse anger and have the customer walk away in good spirits. Don't tell me that these people don't exist. They do. Its just that too many people who have no people skills are in jobs where they're in contact with the public all day long. The TA should'nt hire anyone for a job that requires public contact, unless the applicant has verifiable public contact experience with references. Just remember this:
The TA employee that is visible to the public is the agent of the TA to the public. He/she represents the TA in the eyes of the public. How the public perceives the TA will depend on how they perceive the employee that they have contact with. This employee is like a public relations liason to the public.
Hey, I like working with the public. I never had a problem with it, and my only problem working here isn't the job. It's the sadists who run the TA.
Hey, I like working with the public. I never had a problem with it, and my only problem working here isn't the job. It's the sadists who run the TA.
I wasn't pointing a finger at you. I was just making a general statement. Everything I said could be applied to any business or any government agency. It can be applied to any situation where an employee has to deal with the public. The truth is that there are alot of people dealing with the public that shouldn't be. Every time I have to make a telephone call about something, whether I have questions, a complaint or a dispute about a bill, one of 2 thoughts enter my mind by the time I get off the phone:
1-Gee, that person is good with people; wonderful, pleasant;, or
2-That idiot shouldn't be dealing with the public. Nasty *****!
Yeah, there are people who are born to it, and some of them are in the TA. But some of the rest of us need training!
The Jubilee Line extension opened this morning linking the existing
Stanmore-Green Park section to the new Waterloo-Stratford section.
The original southern Terminus at Charing Cross ceases to be served by Jubilee line trains and is retained in "mothballed" status.
Also the DOCKLANDS LIGHT RAIL system has opened it's extension on the same day,5 new stations are mow open, linking Island Gardens, under the river Thames, to serve Lewisham.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
Yes, and I rode them both today. Large report tomorrow.
Simon
Swindon UK
I've seen some photos of the DLR and it looks quite unconventional compared to other light rail systems. I assume that its similar to Vancouver's Skytrain.
How much of it is underground and does it go through downtown London right along with the extensive Underground system?(it occurs to me I know very little of downtown London:))
The only section underground is from the bank towards Shadwell for about 1.5 miles all the rest is surface or elevated either on brick arches or concrete vaiducts with the exception of the new tunnel under the River Thames at Greenwich. The line was built to help the regeneration of rthe former docks are of East London.
It is unconventional in that the trains are automatic i.e. no drivers.
Simon
DLR's pretty cool; I've been on it a couple of times. A lot of the hardcore transit types over there hated the idea originally, didn't they? I remember hearing it called a "toy train". The Thatcher folks put it in instead of building the heavy-rail Jubilee extension that's finally done now, which seemed like a cynical stopgap policy; I imagine they were as surprised as anybody to see DLR succeed. It's gone through several expansions.
As for its relation to central London: it links residential areas of the East End (many gentrifying, many still on the gritty side) to the vast Docklands office development (and now a Jubilee Line tube station at Canary Wharf) at one end and to the City of London at the other. The City is the historic core of London, but like lower Manhattan it's the dense tip rather than the center of the CBD, which extends west to around Hyde Park. So the DLR drops you off at Bank, a busy interchange in that financial district (think Fulton St.), and you can catch a tube train from there to the West End, or anyplace else in the rest of town.(DLR also runs to Tower Gateway, a less convenient location at the edge of the City.) It supplements the Tube in a specific, underserved location rather than paralelling it through Greater London. DLR's a great example of how light rail can comprehensively serve a local market, and feed pasengers into a regional network. It's spurring other light rail projects to feed into other hubs on London's periphery, such as Croydon.
It supplements the Tube in a specific, underserved location
rather than paralleling it through Greater London.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but much of London Transport's outer service (that developed in the Twenties thru Fifties) was effectively close-interval regional rail for suburban commuters to come into the center city.
I recall East End transit advocates bitterly complaining about the lack of tube lines in their VERY dense neighborhoods, for reasons of both class (never to be discounted in transit planning anywhere) and difficult subservice tunneling conditions. Thoughts?
DLR's a great example of how light rail can comprehensively serve a local market, and feed pasengers into a regional network. It's spurring other light rail projects to feed into other hubs on London's periphery, such as Croydon.
But will it share eqpt and specs w/DLR, or be custom-designed and hence noninteroperable? [grin]
Croydon is a long way away from Docklands, so the fact that there will be absolutely no compatibility is no problem. As far as I can tell, the Croydon system will be extremely similar to the highly successful Manchester system, both in operation, vehicles and construction (on street running in town centre connected to old ROW from British Rail).
The problem with railways in London is that much of the network was built and defended by private railway companies that did not want to lose territory to the Underground. Although certain parts of London are bereft of the Underground, there are nonetheless dense rail networks practically everywhere until you get to the outer suburbs, the problem is that the London terminals that they serve are generally pooly sited, especially Paddington, Kings Cross, Euston and Victoria. Hence, the planners dream of either continuing the process of attatching these to existing underground lines (e.g. extending Victoria line south) or of building vast new tunnels to link the termini (e.g. Crossrail: Paddington/Marylebone to Liverpool Street).
Max: For the New Yorkers on SubTalk, it's worth pointing out that London is built largely on clay -- the floodplain of the Thames, I presume -- and thus tunneling beneath the city is far, far easier than in NYC.
For the Londoners, large parts of NYC (including other boroughs) are built on "Manhattan schist," an extremely hard granite that has to be blasted out to build tunnels.
In NYC, we can only admire the notion of being able to deep-tunnel thru clay to connect railway terminii. It would likely cost several billion dollars just to connect Grand Central Terminal (where trains dead-end at about 44th Street) into the Penn Station tubes which run under 32nd Street, which is to say slightly more than half a mile. Granted this is under some of the world's most expensive and valuable real estate, but if you could deep-tunnel through clay, it would be at least THINKABLE.
Sigh.
Here's a web site with some info on Crossrail and Chelsea/Hackney:
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acropolis/7069/
-Dave
Dave
Thanks for the link. It will take me weeks to go through all of this. I can't find references to a lot of the map snippets on the home page (e.g. for the split Northern Line) are they all there somewhere, or are they all tantalisers?
Max
> are they all there somewhere, or are they all tantalisers?
Don't know. I didn't look thru the whole site. Mail its web master...
-Dave
JV: Yes, London has an unfair advantage when it comes to tunnels. Geology is also one of the reasons why there are so few lines south of the river. Here, the ground is mainly gravel, which requires compressed air and freezing for tunneling. The other reason is the Southern Railway (1923-1948) which did everything that it could to keep the Underground out of the area. Imagine an entire New York City borough in which there are a couple of subway lines forming railheads, but everywhere else has to rely on stopping services run by the LIRR
Staten Island has no subways. Only the Staten Island Railway.
London South of the Thames is about 1/3 of the size of London North of the Thames, so 2 million would be a reasonable estimate of its population.
Simon, are these two run under Alcatel ATC?
On tre Jubille I believe that the signalling is conventional i.e standard three aspect block and trip cocks. The docklands does have ATC as there are no drivers but what type it is I dont know (can Rob help out here). There is a train captain who opens and closes the doors and checks tickets (sometimes.
Dockland uses Alcatel signalling on all lines from 10th July 1995
and now operated a fleet of 70 articulated units on the system.
Regards
Rob :^)
p.s.
cars 22-44 built 1990
cars 45-91 built 1992
cars 01-11 built 1986 (sold to Essen Germany)
cars 12-21 built 1989 (sold to Germany)
Docklands opened 12 years ago on 31st August 1987.
Simon, just to anticipate your post, I rode both as well, all very impressive, I will leave you to give the lowdown, but here are a few observations:
1) No cross platform interchanges anywhere, not even with the North London Line, instead endless escalators. LT has an awful record of keeping escalators in service.
2) Canary Wharf is one of the worst 'circled' interchanges anywhere, or else the worst signposted, and there was a secret passageway that I missed. Heron Quays is much easier.
3) Some very impressive stations, Canary Wharf is spectacular, although vertigo sufferers will not like it, but too much plain concrete. Southwark is my favourite station, it captures much of the 1930s spirit, the ticket hall is very reminiscent of Southgate, and the lights between the platforms are fascinating. The other stations are too post-industrial for me, and will be a nightmare to keep clean.
4) I don't think that Southwark or Bermondsey will ever be busy stations out of rush hour.
5) Dead end terminal at Stratford precludes future extension (cf. the fantasy map that I sent you).
6) DLR: I think that the Lewisham extension is going to become VERY overcrowded indeed, it is a shame that Lewisham station is so badly sited. I had to cross three busy roads to get to the shopping centre.
Any thoughts?
Max
Max,
I agree with all the points you made. I feel the whole thing is over engineered and a lot of money has been wasted.
The intercahnges are dreadful.
But, it will be heavily used, but could have ben a bit better, time will tell. Or is it an opportunity lost?
Were you riding on Saturday ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon,
Yes, I came down on the Saturday. Two new lines in one day was too good an opportunity to miss.
I tried everywhere to get a new map. You would have thought that LT would have been keen to get them out. The only station with them was Southwark (which shows both JLE and Lewisham open).
There is one good interchange on the JLE which is Canada Water. Unfortunately:
1) Escalators (up and down) only between the JLE and ELL Northbound. Only stairs between JLE and ELL southbound. Unbelievable. Surely they could have had one up escalator for both directions.
2) The ELL serves some pretty frightening parts of London. I can't believe that I used to go to school in one of them.
Max
Is there a reason that they put up a partition to block off the railfan view on the Woodlawn Line?I noticed that the R62A's dont have the railfan view blocked off.Sometimes i get lucky and catch a rare redbird with a railfan view but its hard to come by on the Woodlawn Line
I can feel your pain. I grew up near Burnside Av station. We can see at most 8 R33 Redbird trains on #4 line.
I don't know whether #4 Redbird trains are running during weekends.
Chaohwa
# 4 LINE NO RAILFAN WINDOWS
last time i was there november 1-5 1999 shotting RAILFAN WINDOWS
vidieos of the # 2 #5 i saw the #4 with a REDBIRD and
r 62 RAILFAN WINDOW on the #2!!!!!!
no railfans on the number # 1 line!!!!!!
all subway photographers and vuidieographers should concetrate all
of our efforts on the number # 4 ,,,,
BEFORE IT BECOMES AND ENDANGERED SPECIES ( no railfan windows )
there were rail fan windows on the 1/9 about a month or so when i was riding on that line.
i plan to ride the 1 train tomorrow i'll look at for the railfan window on this train i thought the R62a's had them i'll see tomorrow!!
Good luck, my home line is the 1 train. I know that there is ONE HALF of a train that has a railfan window, catch that one half in the front car heading uptown. The reason I say one half is because the 1 is linked in 5 car sets...
Later
Peace Out
-Clayton
There are about 80 Redbirds in RUSH-HOUR and MID-DAY (Mon-Fri onlY) service on the #4 Line; they are #9222-9305 except #9225 which is in an odd-couple with #9130 and is over on the #2.
Wayne
on the 62a's on the 6, they put up a metal panel over the railfan side window.
That side window affords no view, so I wouldn't call it a Railfan Window.
HOW?? do you catch THE R38 thru and to and into far rockway during
the daylight hours??
the mta information says that i have to catch the ""S"" train
to far rockway after transfering off of the R38 WINDOW FAN TRAIN
to the """S"" R70 something no railfan window !!!
then it goes all the way to mott avenue / far rockway !!! ??????
however i did get R38 service to far rockway at night !!!
WHEN AND HOW DO YOU CATCH IT DURING THE DAY ?????? !!!!!!!!
how do you get an r 38 to far rockways mott ave during the
daylight hours ???
note nte night vidieo looked great but a daytime railfan vidieo
would have been better !!!
salaamallah@yahoo.com thank you !!!
There is G.O. in effect and all A Trains are going to Lefferts Boulevard. They have 3 full R44s S Trains (signed at A) that are going to and from Mott Avenue. All the trains sre single tracking from Howard Beach JFK Airport to Broad Channel.
The shuttles are operating from Rockaway Blvd - Mott Avenue
I have to disagree with you on the makeup of the Far Rockaway shuttle. It does not "only" consist of R44s, it also consist of R38s.
The way it is set up is that the last three or four through trains to Far Rockaway (whether R44s, R38s, and during the summer while the Williamsburg Bridge was closed to transit, R32s were also used) will serve as the Far Rockaway shuttle service.
As for Salaam, I'm sorry you missed riding the "A" train during the summer, because there were plenty of R38s and R32s operating to Far Rockaway, whether in thru service or weekday midday G.O. shuttle service.
Did everyone understand that? What is an R70?????~!!!!!! WHY ARE YOU SCREAMING AT ME????!!!!! hOW DO YOU GET AN R38 VIDEO??????lEAVE ME ALONE MR SALAMI!!!
NO ONE WAS TALKING DIRECTLY TO YOU!!! IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING GOOD TO SAY DON'T SAY IT!!!
NO ONE WAS TALKING DIRECTLY TO YOU!!! IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANYTHING GOOD TO SAY DON'T SAY IT!!!
I agree. Antibuff, if you don't like Salaam, or what he has to say, then just quit reading his posts. You don't have to make any cheap shot derogatory comments about his ethnic background.
11/21/99
Does that single track G.O. on the Rockaway Line have anything to do with that new layup track near Broad Channel ?
Bill Newkirk
i am sorry folks but i really do need the information about the r38
to far rockway / mott avenue because last november 1 -5 1999
i couldnt seem to catch one from 42nd street station !!!
maybe the r 38 service is rush hours only from 3;00 P.M. ONLY??!!
thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com i am a new york born black man
with ISLAM as my spiritual and religion beleif !!!
thany you very much if you can help me with this information !!!
chill out
ill look into it right now
Go the Euclid Ave. in the AM rush BEFORE the GO starts! I'm sure at least on R38 will run to the Rock!
Anyone know why the work seems to have stopped the last month or so? The tracks, including third rail, have been laid from just east of Merillon Ave. to just west of Mineola. There is a connection with the Main Line eastbound track near Merillon Ave. and all that seems to be missing is the connection near Mineola.
[Anyone know why the work seems to have stopped the last month or so? The tracks, including third rail, have been laid from just east of Merillon Ave. to just west of Mineola. There is a connection with the Main Line eastbound track near Merillon Ave. and all that seems to be missing is the connection near Mineola.]
A couple of weeks ago, I heard a conductor tell a passenger, in response to the latter's question, that the railroad had run out of money to complete the project. It's hard to say whether that's really the case. As you note, there's not all that much that remains to be done. And we would presume that the LIRR would have made sure it had enough money to complete the job before starting work ... but then again, we *are* talking about the LIRR!
And of course, the stub track that's there is all but useless, unless there really IS a train the goes NY -> Jamacia, NHP, Merrilon Ave, then terminates.
With stuff like this going on, is it any wonder people are fed up with the LIRR?
Sadly there was one train that did that route. The anniversary comes up on December 7th. I'm talking about train #1250 to Hicksville that was tragically terminated by Colin the Madman.
I'm always comforted by the thought that people who have owned Lionel Trains are not necessarilly qualified to run a railroad. So it is also true for employees who work for one. The missing connection near Mineola bothers me too but In do not believe that it is due to a lack of money. In order to install the switch, service must be interrupted/stopped, as it was when the switch east of Merrilon Ave was installed. If the LIRR were to curtail service during this peak travel period, they'd ne criticized widely for being inconsiderate. Since that particular switch wil not likely be needed until DM service is phased in some time in the spring, it's likely that the final connection will be made after the holiday season.
[In order to install the switch, service must be interrupted/stopped, as it was when the switch east of Merrilon Ave was installed. If the LIRR were to curtail service during this peak travel period, they'd be criticized widely for being inconsiderate. Since that particular switch will not likely be needed until DM service is phased in some time in the spring, it's likely that the final connection will be made after the holiday season.]
That sounds like a reasonable explanation. I can't believe that it's because they ran out of money. Even the LIRR can't be that short-sighted... or can they be?
Just goes to show what happens when you have a long history of doing strange things: everyone suspects you of doing something foolish even when you're not.
Speaking of missing switches, has anyone been out to Exchange Place recently and seen the really odd HBLR arrangements behind Harborside? Any ideas as to why all Northbound traffic from Bayonne will run onto the Southbound track at Harborside while the Northbound track resumes at a buffer 20 or 30 feet further North?
When revenue operations commence on HBLR--hopefully next March 1--service will only go as far north as Exchange Place. There are ROW acquisition problems in the Newport area. Rest assured that when trains start running to and from Hoboken, both tracks will be in place. Residents of Essex Street have pushed for single track runs until ridership levels are determined, but NJ Transit has no plans to leave one set of rails idle.
I walked the ROW in the Newport area last weekend. Judging from appearances, the ROW has been fully acquired in that area. The tracks are in place, if not completely installed, from diagonally across from the power plant until approximately the rear of the hotel. From there to Newport Center, ballast, ties, and other prep are well along at every point on the route. All of the columns are in place for the elevated section from Newport Center to the South side of the rail yard at 18th Street. Structural steel is in place on the elevated portion for approximately one-third of the way North from Newport Center.
If there is a gap in the ROW on paper, it sure doesn't show on the ground.
Getting back to the missing switch South of the Harborside stop: I guess you can wait to make the through connection and install the switch in the Northbound track until you're ready to provide service to Hoboken. When is that supposed to start? In the meantime, I suppose the present hook up saves having to move a second switch every time a car is "turned around."
As someone who uses Mineola station and who also loves diesel's (old or bi-level) over M1-3's, I hope they never finish that project, because that would mean all (or most) Oyster Bay trains would terminate at Mineola and not go to Jamaica. The only good thing about the M1,M3 are the railfan window, but thats another thread!!
Who says ALL? I'm sure that with the building of the turnaround track at Broad Channel, there aren't any more rush hour A train to Rockaway Park.
Why do you assume OB trains will terminate at Mineola when the third track in is? The third track is supposed to increase main line capacity, so why would fewer trains go west of Mineola?
I assume the third-tracking is halted because 1) the entire project is not even funded, no less projected for completion, and 2) major changes are coming at Mineola, also as yet unfunded.
By terminating the Oyster Bay trains at Mineola, there IS more mainline capacity. The LIRR would then be able to run MORE trains to Huntington/Port Jefferson and Ronkonkoma IN PLACE OF the Oyster Bay through trains to Jamaica.
By terminating the Oyster Bay trains at Mineola, there IS more mainline capacity. The LIRR would then be able to run MORE trains to Huntington/Port Jefferson and Ronkonkoma IN PLACE OF the Oyster Bay through trains to Jamaica.
But I don't see how that's connected to addition of a third track. It's now, with only two tracks, that the LIRR most badly needs the slots that the OB trains use.
Also, the LIRR has been committed to operating through service at rush hours, when the capacity is tightest--such as the single a.m. runs from East Williston and West Hempstead to Penn.
To my mind, the best capacity increase would be from resurrecting the Central Line between East Meadow and Beth. This would provide enormous additional capacity for Ronkonkoma and Montauk line trains, with its direct connection to the current four track main from Queens west.
But the LIRR has no desire whatever to deal with the NIMBY issue.
[To my mind, the best capacity increase would be from resurrecting the Central Line between East Meadow and Beth. This would provide enormous additional capacity for Ronkonkoma and Montauk line trains, with its direct connection to the current four track main from Queens west.]
It would be a terrific idea from a capacity standpoint. And land acquisition wouldn't be a major issue because most of the right-of-way is still intact. But "most" is not "all," and the big problem is that Eisenhower Park sits in the middle of the old r-o-w. It's difficult if not downright impossible to see how this problem ever could be overcome. No one would accept a rail line right through the middle of a heavily used park, tunnelling would cost a fortune, and relocating the line around the park would greatly lengthen it and probably require condemnation of a large amount of property.
I live in East Meadow.
Probably the most shortsighted thing the LIRR ever did was get rid of the Central Branch. It staggers the imagination to think they actually re-activated it to bring the materials to build Levittown and then closed it!! With the Nassau Cty Medical Center, the Jail, the Coliseum, and all the suberbs in between that would be a very heavily travelled line. Look how crowded the N49,48,70,71,72 etc are. And Eisenhower Park would not be that much disrupted. Remember the ROW was just south of Stewart Avenue so a very small segment of the NON-Golf course part of the park would be affected. Everything N/O Stewart is Golf Course so the Golf course would be cut in 2 by lets say a Babylon Line type of El. There is only one problem that many sub-talk posters NEVER realize!!!! And that is that NO disconnected right-of-wy of any railroad or rapid transit system will ever be reactivated, whether we're talking about the Central Branch, the Rockaway Branch, the Culver Shuttle, the Myrtle Av El, etc, etc, etc, etc!!!! It just won't happen, PERIOD, except in some railfan's fantasies!!!
I can't think of any rapid transit or passenger rail line that was formally abandoned and then resurrected, but there were several that were closed for years without service.
Longest would have been the Jamaica Bay trestle, closed about six years, then the (current) Dyre Avenue Line was closed about three.
I'm watching Philadelphia--they have three commuter lines that have miles of abandoned line that are supposed to be reactivated after more than a decade.
A note is that the Old Rockaway and LIRR Central Branch were discontinued with the specific proviso they could be reactivated--the City and the LIRR just haven't the stomach for dealing with the politics.
Irony is--the area that the Central Branch runs through is not all that upscale or politically powerful--Moses faced down some of the richest people on LI when he rammed the LIE through Old Westbury, and the NYS DOT recently heavily rebuilt part of Northern Parkway desppite very well organized opposition.
[I can't think of any rapid transit or passenger rail line that was formally abandoned and then resurrected, but there were several
that were closed for years without service.
Longest would have been the Jamaica Bay trestle, closed about six years, then the (current) Dyre Avenue Line was closed about three.]
What about Amtrak's line on the West Side of Manhattan? IIRC, it was unused for at least a couple of years before Amtrak service began.
I can't think of any rapid transit or passenger rail line that was formally abandoned and then resurrected, but there were several that were closed for years without service.
Longest would have been the Jamaica Bay trestle, closed about six years, then the (current) Dyre Avenue Line was closed about three.
What about:
(1) The current Metro North extension of the Harlem Line to Wassaic? Not very long (a few miles). Don't know if it was FORMALLY abandoned, though.
(2) NJ Transit is looking seriously at some new lines. Again, don't know about formal abandonment.
Can anyone add details?
In the last few years, NJT extended service from Netcong to Hackettstown. I don't know if there had ever been passenger service before, but it had carried freight for many decades.
There have been repeated mumblings over the years to reactivate passenger service on the line that branches off the NJT Main Line at Hawthorne and runs through Wyckoff and Oakland to Wanaque. These are fairly wealthy areas, so don't count on it happening anytime soon.
There was also passenger service on a branch that broke off from the Raritan line around Somerville, I think, and ran down through Flemington and hooked up to SEPTA at West Trenton. (I saw a 1981 map showing this when I rode a SEPTA train in 1997!!) Revival of such a service might relieve overcrowding on the Northeast corridor, but again, NIMBYism would rear its ugly head. The same areas of Somerset, Hunterdon and Mercer counties the line runs through also defeated the I-95 extension from the Turnpike near New Brunswick to the Lawrenceville area. It's because of this that there's no cheap, easy way to drive to Philly.
I've heard that there is even a commuter train run between Providence and Boston by the MBTA. Who knows, some of us may live long enough to see passenger service restored to the North Shore Line on SI.
JV : The last train to run on the Harlem Line north of Dover Plains was No 922 on Monday, March 20,1972. It left Chatham at 655am. A federal judge gave permission for the railroad to discontinue service at about noon and the railroad immediately curtailed it. Passengers and crew returning to Grand Central that night for No 935 to Chatham found that it was only going as far as Dover Plains. They made no provision for substitute service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The last train to run on the Harlem Line north of Dover Plains was No 922 on Monday, March 20,1972. It left Chatham at 655am. A federal judge gave permission for the railroad to discontinue service at about noon and the railroad immediately curtailed it. Passengers and crew returning to Grand Central that night for No 935 to Chatham found that it was only going as far as Dover Plains. They made no provision for substitute service.
But was the line officially abandoned N of Dover Plains? Or just left intact but NOT abandoned by Conrail/Metro North?
It was COMPLETELY abandoned.
According to my recollection (I lived in the area at the time) the line was discontinued but not abandoned. The corridor, IIRC, has been deeded to the state and has not been encroached upon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NJT is looking at a number of line expansions, including a run to Lakewood that will pass within a half mile of my home in Eatontown. This is a currently active Conrail line that branches off the NJCL at Red Bank and sees one train a day (but it's a heavy one and has been getting heavier, to the point that it wouldn't surprise me to see it divided into two smaller ones). The NIMBYs haven't reared their heads yet but probably will if this one gets farther up the list. It's a single track line with limited passing capabilities (it was a double-track line many years ago, at least from Red Bank past Eatontown, but the ROW now sports power lines overhead with supports that have caused the track to be centered) so extensive work would be required to bring it up to passenger standards. More likely is a proposed line leaving the NEC near New Brunswick (not sure where the other end is but it's somewhere in the Monmouth/Ocean County area) but the NIMBYs are raising a major stink about that one; one state legislator in the affected area has sponsored legislation to eliminate all NJT rail funding as a result.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A problem might be just west of Merrick Av (e/o the Meadowbrook) Although I'm not sure, I think they built over the ROW. You used to be able to see an abandoned building that looked like a possible ticket office (the Salisbury Plains Station?) which is not there anymore, just industry.
"Where there is a will, there is a way." Of course, a brave politician is as good an example of an oxymoron as any other I've heard.
[There is only one problem that many sub-talk posters NEVER realize!!!! And that is that NO disconnected right-of-wy of any railroad or rapid transit system will ever be reactivated, whether we're talking about the Central Branch, the Rockaway Branch, the Culver Shuttle, the Myrtle Av El, etc, etc, etc, etc!!!! It just won't happen, PERIOD, except in some railfan's fantasies!!!]
Truer words have never been said :-(
"NO disconnected right-of-way of any railroad or rapid transit system will ever be reactivated"
I don't know if this blanket statement is meant to apply only to New York, because I can think of at least a couple of examples from Chicago:
1) When the State Street Subway was open in 1943, the portion of the South Side L extending south from the Loop to the portal of the new subway was redundant and put out of service except for emergency reroutes. But train service was restored to this portion of the line in 1968 when the Dan Ryan line was built, with Dan Ryan trains leaving by L and the South Side trains by the subway. (That sequence was reversed in 1995, to better match the busy North Side L with the busy Dan Ryan line as the Red line and the less-used Lake Street L with the less-used South Side L as the Green line.) So a line that had no service for 26 years or so DID go back into service. Furthermore, when the Orange Line to Midway was built, CTA built a new Roosevelt L station for the Orange and Green Lines, when there hadn't been a Roosevelt elevated station since the subway opening.
2) Metra opened in 1996 a new commuter train line over a relatively light-traffic freight line, the Wisconsin Central. While this isn't quite the revival of an abandoned line, it's still passenger service where there hadn't been any for many decades.
Also, DART in Dallas is using abandoned freight trackage for an extension of their light rail system. Admittedly, they had some problems negotiating with the neighbors, but it wasn't quite NIMBY: the property owners along the line insisted on sound barriers, but what they really wanted wasn't shielding from noise but (expensive) high opaque barriers so train passengers couldn't see into their backyards. So in a sense, they were acting under pretense, but it was also clear (at least to the DART person who I heard this from) that there was no further, NIMBY, pretense under that: if they got the fence, the neighbors would generally NOT oppose the line.
I think what we're realy talkin about is a line where the service is abandoned--i.e., no usable track, major work needed to rehabilitate a dormant right-of-way and put in new track, signals, etc.
The Central and Rockaway branches we have been talking about fit this category. A large part of the Central line right-of-way is now within a public part. A lot of the old Rockaway line is a linear forest.
A long-abandoned piece of Philadelphia street railway which had been completely abandoned was resurrected a few years ago--new track, wires, switches, the works--but this was for a reroute during bridge reconstruction.
Sorry to burst your pessimistic bubble, but there have been lines resurrected. These are the Harlem Line to Wassaic from Dover Plains (not yet opened, but this is in final stages of construction, so it WILL happen). The Morristown and Boonton Lines were recently extended from Netcong to Hackettstown. As for that which has not been mentioned, the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail is being built on abandoned RR ROW. If Light Rail is unacceptable to you, then I will point to a TRUE example of a WHOLE BRANCH being restored to service after DECADES of abandonment, the MBTA Plymouth-Kingston Line. So, to the joy of all those persons who refuse to watch the world rot, YOU ARE WRONG!
Eugenius, I suspect Jeff Rosen is dealing with what he sees, and New York area is what we see most and, in New York, it seems that as soon as someone puts a little vegetable garden on a former rail right-of-way, that's the end of any chance of resurrection.
Another line that was really resurrected is the PRSL line into Cape May. I walked and drove most of that line less than a decade ago and it looked like the portion in Cape May City was about as dead as a rail line could be, yet a touristy operation began running into the heart of Cape May this year.
Working against rail line rebirth also is the so-called "Rails to Trails" movement--using rail rights-of-way as walking-bicycling-nature trails. You might think these could be a means of preserving rail right-of-way, but you think they'd ever be able to restore rails on these?
On Cape Cod, the rail line, which now ends at Dennis (on the "fat" part of the southern Cape) continues as a bike trail on the other side. Ironically, where the old rail line had to cross Route 6 (the main drag) in Eastham at grade, the bicycle path uses a shiny new underpass. Shows which transportation mode rates these days!
Did the line go all the way to Provincetown or did it end someplace else? Where was the terminal (be specific, I remember the geography)?
It went all the way to Provincetown, with a track that went right out on the town pier. You know, the one that's now adjacent to the big municipal parking lot.
The terminal area was located at what was an auto dealership (Duarte (sp?) Motors) the last time I looked. The right-of-way is really easy to trace. You can see the curve from the auto dealership/terminal out to the dock. "Napi's" restaurant is on part of it.
Going railroad south from the terminal, the right-of-way is now a curving public highway, which, IIRC, is now called Harry Kemp Way.
Much of the rest of the r-o-w is traceable through N. Truro, Truro and Wellfleet to where the bicycle path starts.
Oh wait, the other part of my message:
It's a sad fact that New York has become like this these days. If my theory that everything works in circles is correct, then New York will come back to it's former glory. Did NY have any similar low spots in it's history?
Just out of curiosity I tried to find the Central Line ROW E/O Eisenhower by car today armed with my trusty Hagstrom and on the E/S of Carman Av it goes through the jail complex and then a couple of recently buit condominium complexes before it hits Newbridge Road and Levittown.
Jeff,
I remember in the late 1960s walking along under the power lines in Levittown, (just east of Jerusalem Ave) and seeing rails just sticking out of the ground in haphazard fashion. Guess they didn't do such a neat job when they finally tore up the line. BTW ever see that abandoned rail bridge north of Hempstead Turnpike, just east of the northbound Meadowbrook?
Mike H
I saw that bridge from the Meadowbrook Pkway. Its just south of Stewart Av.
[If Light Rail is unacceptable to you, then I will point to a TRUE
example of a WHOLE BRANCH being restored to service after DECADES of abandonment, the MBTA Plymouth-Kingston Line.]
But that's Boston. Things can get done in Boston. Nothing gets done in New York.
They could build cut-and-cover through Eisenhower Park.
While mor expensive than just relaying the line on the surface, it probably be the cheapest capacity increase the LIRR could do.
Practically no utilities to relocate, no occupied houses to tear down, it would not have to be rebuilt under traffic, like the Babylon or Main Lines.
Can anyone fill us (me) in on any plans to raise the bridge over the Mineola tracks? Presume that's not part of the 3rd-track plan, but IIRC, that bridge is the sole impediment to TOFC freight on Long Island on at least one LIRR line. Other bridges were raised 10+ years ago, but there was some kind of major community uprising in Mineola and the bridge raising went into limbo.
Details, anyone?
The Mineola Blvd. bridge was just completely rebuilt a couple of years ago. I don't know if it is any higher than the old one, but I do think it was built wide enough for room for a third track.
Does anyone have or can anyone supply a drawing or a diagram of the new Switch /Interlocking
Thanks
Steve
Go to http://www.lirrhistory.com/nov99/lirr3trk.jpg
Thank you ,Bob
http://homepages.go.com/~rjmotor/contract.html
There is workfare in your future.
There is a long walk in yours.
What strike is everyone talking about? What is the problem, when will it occur, who will take over the positions of the strikers, and will we have a repeat of November 1, 1918 (Malbone Street)?
Thanks.
This was a thread a while ago, and there is something I didn't think to mention at the time, but might illuminate the question.
If this was a land use forum, I would be discouraged from participating by my employer. I would certainly be admonished not to comment on any plans or applications under review. And, I would be especially criticized for identifying myself as Larry from the Department of City Planning, because some might get the idea I was speaking for the Department.
One time I wrote a letter to the editor in to Planning magazine, on a subject not specific to NYC. Planning called me back and asked where I worked. I said I was just expressing my own opinion. The rep said fine, but he'd just like to know my background. I said I worked at NYC Planning. My letter was printed, with NYC Dept. of City Planning under it. The next day, I was called into the office of my bosses boss for a 15 minute lecture on expressing my own opinion under my own name only, and having the Chairman of the Department approve anything that says Dept. of City Planning.
So it wouldn't surprise me if MTA employees are looking in on this site. And I'd bet a lot of them would love to post and tell us things we don't know, answer or questions, or follow up on ideas they might like. But it also wouldn't surprise me if other MTA employees are looking it to make sure no one does so.
Hey MTA employees, if there is policy of not posting in transit chatrooms let us know -- under anonymous from an internet connection in a library.
Larry, after all the land use discussions here, how can you say that this is not a land use forum? Or do you mean that it is not one that your bosses would think to keep an eye on?
(Land use disussions)
General ideas are fine. Specific developments under review, and the release of non-public info, are not fine. Notice I've been careful not to bring up actual decisions by MY management that I've disagreed with, and blast them. Believe me I could.
Besides, as you say, no one from the administration looks in on Subtalk, but given the subject the MTA presumably does.
Larry, I work for the TA and I post anything verified that I find out about. No one has ever told me anything, and there are two representatives from management here who know me personaly. I guess the TA's evil empire doesn't extend to censorship.
You all recognise my name as one who posts here regularly who "admits" to being a Motorman on the E line. Getting into "trouble" over what I post is the farthest thing on my mind. Like the late Howard Cosell, I like to think I "tell it like it is."
It seems to me that any regular participant here would have realized long ago that many people, working for the TA, LIRR,MNRR, and MTA post here regularly. I don't think that the TA wants to infringe on first ammendment rights with the following 2 provisos:
1) TA Rule 12A(4) provides that no employee may disclose any confidential information without authorization.
2) TA Rule 12B(1) provides that no employee may appear in court on the behalf of anyone with a court proceeding against the TA.
3) TA Rule 12C(2) provides that no employee may disclose confidential info. to prospective suppliers related to procurement contracts so as to undermine the procurement process.
Other than that, unless (one of us) openly slanders a member of senior management, I see no rule against it.
(No infringement of 1st Amendment)
I guess you guys don't work for Rudy. The Chamber of Commerce refers of lot of people over to me for facts and figures. Pre-Rudy, if it was just a matter of factual information, I'd give it out, although policy questions were routed to the executive office. That included the press, anyone.
Then in the 1997 election, a new press person said she wanted all press calls through her. Then all calls from other agencies. Then all calls period, just in case. It became clear that I couldn't get in any trouble for stiffing the public, but I could get in trouble for saying something that came back to the wrong person the wrong was, even if I was just quoting a number or a line of zoning text. Most people sent downstairs never call back -- we're up the fourth "muffin" down there and they have no idea what people are asking. Just shows how its easier to goldbrick in government than it is to do a good job.
Rudy or no Rudy, however, when someone calls and says they are considering moving a business to New York and asks for some data I still answer the question. For now.
[Rudy or no Rudy, however, when someone calls and says they are considering moving a business to New York and asks for some data I still answer the question. For now.]
Of course, there was only one such call in the past year ... and it came from a ward at Bellevue.
[Of course, there was only one such call in the past year ... and it came from a ward at Bellevue.]
But my pigeon harvesting scheme would have powered the entire Eastern seaboard!
I'm fairly confident that a lot of suits in the various divisions of the MTA regularly visit this site. Some are rail buffs who you might run into at a tour or ERA event. Some are just curious.
I would also feel that MTA suits would be reluctant to post here for fear that their boss was also viewing this site. It is my genuine hope that they have learned a thing or two ! But then our post may be the subject of executive suit humor.
At this depot several suits know I'm regulary on SubTalk/BusTalk. And my VP has seen value in some of my BusTalk posts. There are various folks at the DOT & TA who also know I post here and have seen what I've learned ... they're not always too happy about that part.
Mr t__:^)
I heard an interesting announcement on the radio today here in Boston: Due to road construction on a key road near the Fleet Center (new Boston Garden) related to the "Big Dig," anyone going to the Bruins game tonight can ride on the "T" for FREE. All you have to do is show your game ticket. This includes any commuter rail, bus, or subway line. NICE.
The way the Rangers are playing right now, I think anyone going to the Garden should give a free ride for showing their ticket, though Cablevision and not the MTA should be the ones eating the cost.
Bravo!!! Now the next step is a two parter. 1 a small ticket surcharge for every ticket to any event in a large(5k+seats) venue. 2 the ticket to any of these surcharged events is a flashpass to and from the event on ANY T service. Actually I have been advocating this here in the Bay Area ever since watching BART choke trying to move people to a Paul MacCartney concert
Is that where Boston gets its enemas???
I can positively confirm an earlier S-T post about LIRR Diesel Coaches at the Racetrack. There are some DEFINITELY at BELMONT RACETRACK station. I was heading south on Hempstead Ave / Turnpike at the Cross Island Parkway. I looked to my left and saw at least two cars. Heavy traffic and the exit ramps from the CIP prevented me from getting a good look as to the #'s and how many cars were there.
Is it true that on the Port Jefferson line, if I transfer from the train from P.S. to Jamacia, will I get a double decker definatly. I was wondering because I wanted to take a ride on a double decker on my thanksgiving break. Thanks
Later
Peace Out
-Clayton
Clayton....I thought you only rode NYC buses.....anyway I live in Greenlawn on the PJ line....It seems the old junk is now sitting at Hillside Facility and Belmont Racetrack. We seem to only have DD's. They are probably hooked up to diesels rather than dual-mode if that matters to Mr. RTS
I think there are only 23 dual modes and since they have to run them double ended that means only 11 trains. That sux.
I do ride subways too! :-) Cool, thanks for the info!!!
Later
Peace Out
-Clayton
Actually, the plans are for a maximum of just 9 DM trains to be phased in by spring.
So much for the wonders of dual mode operation.....
Anybody who ever thought all non-electrified trains would go to NYP was foolish. The station only has 21 tracks, with LIRR, NJT & AMTRAK sharing space. If we had proper planning in the 70's, then we woiuld have the lower level of GC for LIRR trains. We are now paying for the mistakes of the past.
There's still some of the old stuff running. I got on one on the Oyster Bay Line from Jamaica at 0900 on Thursday Morning. And I might be in the minority but I happen to like them and will miss 'em when they're gone. When they're gone there won't be any more trains where you can ride on the vestibule platform between cars. And what are the smokers going to do? Ride in the bathroom the whole trip? Thats reserved for the fare-beaters!
I agree that there is some charm riding the vestibule on a nice day. As far as your concern about what smokers are going to do, perhaps they would stop smoking. It will keep the air fresher for everyone else and keep societal health costs down since they won't be getting sick as often.
Sorry about the HTML! I just wanted the word "will" bold!!!
Who are you apologizing to? I don't believe that any of us are displeased with your HTML.
Question ......
how do I and when can you catch a WINDOW FAN R38 to far rockway
mott avenue during the DAYLIGHT HOURS ??????
the reason why i am asking this question is because i am shotting
a RAILFAN VIDIEO this march 2000 !!!
i couldnt seem to get a window fan during the daylight hours to
far rockway mott av. without having to transfer to some R70 type
or higher without a RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!
please i would like this information if any of you know !!!
railfan r38 all the way from 207th street all the way across
broad channel and stopping at far rockway / mott avenue...
without having to transfer to a ""S"" train
thank you very much!!! salaamallah@yahoo.com
The should be a few R38s that are Rockaway-bound; they don't usually segregate the car types by terminal.
BTW the 0NLY car types that run on the "A" are
R38 (1966 stock)
R32 (1965 stock)
and R44 (1972 stock).
There are no R46 or R68 to be found on the "A" line
Wayne
Or R-70!
NO R-10's???
"i couldnt seem to get a window fan during the daylight hours to
far rockway mott av. without having to transfer to some R70 type
or higher without a RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!"
I feel for you. I sure as hell wouldn't want to ride an unpurchased ballast car!
Does anyone know where i can find an Acrobat (.pdf) file of the official NYC subway map? I think they used to be available on the MTA's official site. Feel free to email it if you have one. Thanks!
Several Metrocard vending machines have been installed at Union Tpke. The were placed in front of exisiting advertisements. The electrical ducts cover some other signs. Since the signs can not be removed, I guess they will be left in place for the life time of the machines. Poor planning and supervision by the TA.
GREAT PLANNING! This kind of stuff protects these little things we don't think twice about in a virtual time capsule. One day, these signs could again be exposed in their 1999 condition and become one of those things from Forgotten NY. BTW, thanks for the MVM update, how many machines are there at Union TPK and when did they enter service? Visit MVM List and Resources.
Why does the TA need ATO in the first place? As far as I'm concerned, the billions they will spend on the systems could be used to build the second avenue line.
BART was laughable at the beginning, and inefficient even today, 25 years later.
I'm sure MUNI and BART are fretting over the Y2K thing, but the TA's singalling doesn't need to know what day it is to work safely and efficiently.
Can you really see the TA effectively maintaining an enormous computer network?
I've trouble-shot microprocessor and realy automations alike, and I'll take the relays anytime.
Dave
I'm sure MUNI and BART are fretting over the Y2K thing, but the TA's singalling doesn't need to know what day it is to work safely and efficiently.
Can you really see the TA effectively maintaining an enormous computer network?
The Y2K problems will be long over by the time NYC gets ATO. As for computer equipment, the TA is already maintaining it. All rolling stock from R-44 and up is computerized. Our fare control system is computerized. Also, I'm sure that if we finally DO get a 2nd Ave. subway, it will be ATO. Unless you're an elderly person, way up there, you will see ATO in New York.
"All rolling stock from R-44 and up is computerized"
In what respect? As part of the GOH program,ATO was removed from the R-44/46;motor control and brake systems were also replaced with less complicated ones in an effort to make them more reliable.
The R-62/68 represent a return to more traditional technology. Motor control and brakes are basically updated versions of those used on Redbirds.
Funny, I think I've already detected the Y2K problem in the signaling system on the IRT, which has rolled back to 1904.
"Why does the TA need ATO in the first place? As far as I'm concerned, the billions they will spend on the systems could be used to build the second avenue line."
The TRILLIONS they will spend on staff and maintenance without ATO will pay for a line under Second Avenue and to Staten Island, SE Queens and more.
The demonstrated safety issues with ATO, however, more than outweigh the potential benefits you have identified. What good are the new lines if they aren't safe to ride? In another 50-100 years ATO may be possible, but it will take a complete change in the infrastructure - rolling stock, signalling, platform design, probably tunnel design as well - complete with a couple of additional layers of complexity before the trains can run without a human at the controls. For a good local example on a small scale of ATO, look at the Newark Airport monorail. It works, precisely because it is on a small scale and because its passengers are predominately employed, tax-paying citizens with a vested interest (via their tax dollars and/or the price they pay for their airline tickets) in its continued safe operation. Contrast that with the subway, which handles many orders of magnitude more passengers and whose passengers include a comparatively large percentage of persons with no sense of responsibility.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Contrast that with the subway, which handles many orders of magnitude more passengers and whose passengers include a comparatively large percentage of persons with no sense of responsibility.
What does the level of responsibility of the passengers have to do with success or failure of ATO? I would think its the level of responsibility of the TA, its engineers, planners and employees that affect success or failure of ATO.
Not entirely. One factor that affects the safety of automated operation in general is the potential for vandalism. Responsible passengers aren't going to vandalize a system. The NYC subway, on the other hand, is continually being vandalized. This is a safety issue in any environment, but significantly more so when there isn't a human to respond to its effects.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not entirely. One factor that affects the safety of automated operation in general is the potential for vandalism. Responsible passengers aren't going to vandalize a system. The NYC subway, on the other hand, is continually being vandalized. This is a safety issue in any environment, but significantly more so when there isn't a human to respond to its effects.
You make a valid point about the vandalism issue, but even with ATO, there is still a human in the cab who can intervene and take over manually if necessary.
Also, someone in the last car would be less prone to vandalism if operator in the front, or the supervisor at the central location could see him through a camera as opposed to the conductor in the middle who can't.
The demonstrated safety issues with ATO, however, more than outweigh the potential benefits you have identified. What good are the new lines if they aren't safe to ride?
Many systems run with ATO without safety problems. It has been a proven concept since the '70s. There's BART, PATCO, MARTA, WMATA, and Miami Metrorail in the USA alone; not to mention what else outside the USA.
In another 50-100 years ATO may be possible, but it will take a complete change in the infrastructure - rolling stock, signalling, platform design, probably tunnel design as well - complete with a couple of additional layers of complexity before the trains can run without a human at the controls.
The only rolling stock that's not ATO-ready is equipment that is on its way out by now, anyway. The redbirds, R-32's, 38's, 40's and 42's. By the time we get ATO, those cars will be gone. Re-doing the signal system, I agree with. I don't think that platform and tunnel design need to be altered. At least, for the forseeable future, there will be a human at the controls, just in case of malfunction, the human can operate the train manually. Inless things changed without my knowledge, a human is still in the front cab in systems that are ATO.
The Atlanta and Washington systems are the only ones that even come close to NYC in terms of size and complexity, and they're still a long ways away from it. And Washington hasn't been running ATO for quite some time now (March 1998?) because of problems with the system as the equipment has aged that they still haven't been able to solve. The only way significant savings will be realized from ATO is in the elimination of people, and as you correctly point out none of the large-scale ATO applications have been able to do so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"The Atlanta and Washington systems are the only ones that even come close to NYC in terms of size and complexity, and they're still a long ways away from it."
Yes, but Chicago has a large and complex rapid transit system -- seven lines including the Loop elevated with the Green, Purple, Brown, Orange, and Green sharing tracks, the stretch of the North Side L with the Red, Brown, and Purple lines together, and the stretch of the South Side L with the Green and Orange Line sharing the line. Though CTA doesn't have ATO, it does have a more complex signaling and control system than NYCTA's, specifically, cab signaling. CTA's system involves signals transmitted through the rails at radio frequencies (IIRC) which affect an indicator on the train cab speedometer that shows what the maximum speed is. If the train speed exceeds the limit being transmitted, the equipment first gives a warning tone to give time to slow down, and then does an automatic brake application. Of course, the speed signal transmitted is changed based on conditions, the presence of other trains, etc.. Safety is improved without taking the motorman's experience and skill out of the loop, and as a consequence CTA trains routinely exceed 55 mph on much (though admittedly not all) of the system.
To resolve one of the obvious and frequent objections to modernized signaling heard on this board -- the expense and confusion of suddenly adding a new control system to an old railway -- the cab signaling system was added to the system gradually, and was retrofitted to old portions of the system and to older train cars (as old as the 1920s 4000-series cars!). While the first parts of the system to get it were the Kennedy and Dan Ryan median-strip lines at the time of their construction, it was installed on other portions of those lines and to other lines as money came available. It could be added gradually because it wasn't an exclusive system: that is, if a train or a line had it, it could be used to increase train speed safely, but if a give train or a given portion of the line didn't have cab signaling, you were no worse off than with the old system.
Before the cab signaling system was implemented, Chicago had automatic block signaling in the subways and on the Congress Expressway line (built 1958), and had tripcocks and color lights protecting crossovers, but otherwise was basically operating without signals, on an "on-sight" basis!!! So, Chicago went almost directly from a system much more primitive than the present New York City subway signaling to one considerably more advanced than it.
In other words, there is a happy medium between an all-or-nothing grand retrofit of 100 year old subways and 30 year old train cars with totally automatic control (which I agree would be problematic) and the slow status quo. I think that if Chicago managed it, New York could implement something like it as well.
[I think that if Chicago managed it, New York could implement something like it as well.]
I haven't had such a big laugh in months. Comparing Chicago to New York is like comparing nitrogen to sandpaper (hey, I needed something more compelling than the tired old apples-to-oranges line). Chicago is a city where things can get done. In New York, *nothing* gets done, at least when government's involved. Witness the fact that in New York it takes three months to repair a subway station escalator (many cases), two years to pave a mile of street (14th Street), fourteen years to build a public school (LaGuardia High), and _forever_ to build a subway on Second Avenue.
I haven't had such a big laugh in months. Comparing Chicago to New York is like comparing nitrogen to sandpaper (hey, I needed something more compelling than the tired old apples-to-oranges line). Chicago is a city where things can get done. In New York, *nothing* gets done, at least when government's involved. Witness the fact that in New York it takes three months to repair a subway station escalator (many cases), two years to pave a mile of street (14th Street), fourteen years to build a public school (LaGuardia High), and _forever_ to build a subway on Second Avenue.
That's because of all the bureaucratical red tape and all the political nonsense. There are a million steps and phases you must go through just to do something. The 2nd Ave. subway will probably be ready for Y3K.
[Witness the fact that in New York it takes three months to repair a
subway station escalator (many cases)]
In Philadelphia it can take up to 3 years. Most escalators do not work.
[Witness the fact that in New York it takes three months to repair a subway station escalator (many cases)]
It's worse when they "renovate" them. They spent a year renovating the escalators at the 4th St. station and as far as I can tell the only thing they did was take working ones and break them.
[In other words, there is a happy medium between an all-or-nothing grand retrofit of 100 year old subways and 30 year old train cars with totally automatic control (which I agree would be problematic) and the slow status quo. I think that if Chicago managed it, New York could implement something like it as well.]
Absolutely. Unfortunately, government agencies seem to be rather incompetent when it comes to this sort of intricate, economical, progressive scheduling, as anyone who's gotten stuck on one of those interminable expressway construction projects knows.
Now the MTA is saying that we'll have a new signalling system in *30 years* when the original IRT was built in 4, and the whole system in 40!
[Now the MTA is saying that we'll have a new signalling system in *30
years* when the original IRT was built in 4, and the whole system in 40!]
The IRT was not built in 4 years. It may have been constructed in 4 years, but the political problems that persisted before getting the subway approved to be built took at least 30 years.
Even so, 4 years of construction is amazing.
The difference is private enterprise, I think.
Speaking of which, according to the New York documentary there were times when the Empire State building rose at 1 floor a day.
[re much faster pace of private vs. public construction]
[Speaking of which, according to the New York documentary there were times when the Empire State building rose at 1 floor a day.]
Those days may not entirely be in the past. Have you seen how fast the steelwork is rising on the Reuters building in Times Square? It started just a couple months ago and already is up over 25 stories. Now, to see how public construction proceeds, consider the new Baruch College building on Lexington Avenue in the twenties. It's a big building, to be sure, but not as large as Reuters, and more to the point has been under construction for at least two years. Completion looks like it's more than a year away.
[Those days may not entirely be in the past. Have you seen how fast the steelwork is rising on the Reuters building in Times Square? It started just a couple months ago and already is up over 25 stories. Now, to see how public construction proceeds, consider the new Baruch College building on Lexington Avenue in the twenties. It's a big building, to be sure, but not as large as Reuters, and more to the point has been under construction for at least two years. Completion looks like it's more than a year away.]
Not to mention that according to the statistics I've seen it costs New York State three times as much as a private business to construct a building.
C'mon guys, only three times? Boss Tweed is rolling over in his grave!
It's way easy to eliminate people, if your system doesn't suffer from out of date or bad engineering. Whether a public organization can get good engineering as opposed to bad is another question. Remember the low failure rate on those Kawasaki cars as compared to the others?
Controlling an entire large system by computer is another thing entirely. The computer system will control lines locally, and handle routine switching between lines. But we will need people in the tower (as opposed to the cab) for some time, for the times when things don't go as planned.
Speaking of ATO, where would Vancouver Skytrain fit in. Don't they run with 0PTO, rather than OPTO? And isn't the system a failure in terms of safety (I mean crime from other people, like fights on the platform, not derailments and the like).
[At least, for the forseeable future, there will be a human at the controls, just in case of malfunction, the human can operate the train manually. Inless things changed without my knowledge, a human is still in the front cab in systems that are ATO.]
More old fashioned engineering than anything else. More modern systems have automatic doors on the station platforms, making an attendant superfluous. If old fashioned thinking makes us put someone aboard a train in such a system, they'd probably do more for passenger safety by walking around to check for criminal activity than sitting in a cab.
Putting doors on the platforms would save lives almost immediately--no more people pushed onto the tracks.
[The demonstrated safety issues with ATO, however, more than outweigh the potential benefits you have identified. What good are the new lines if they aren't safe to ride? In another 50-100 years ATO may be possible, but it will take a complete change in the infrastructure - rolling stock, signalling, platform design, probably tunnel design as well - complete with a couple of additional layers of complexity before the trains can run without a human at the controls. For a good local example on a small scale of ATO, look at the Newark Airport monorail. It works, precisely because it is on a small scale and because its passengers are predominately employed, tax-paying citizens with a vested interest (via their tax dollars and/or the price they pay for their airline tickets) in its continued safe operation. Contrast that with the subway, which handles many orders of magnitude more passengers and whose passengers include a comparatively large percentage of persons with no sense of responsibility.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse ]
Automated service can and must be much safer than manual service. If it is not, something is inexcusably wrong with design, management, or maintenance.
Frankly, ATO is not supergenius stuff at this point from an engineering perspective. It's been in use for many years.
[The demonstrated safety issues with ATO, however, more than outweigh the potential benefits you have identified. What good are the new lines if they aren't safe to ride? In another 50-100 years ATO may be possible, but it will take a complete change in the infrastructure - rolling stock, signalling, platform design, probably tunnel design as well - complete with a couple of additional layers of complexity before the trains can run without a human at the controls. For a good local example on a small scale of ATO, look at the Newark Airport monorail. It works, precisely because it is on a small scale and because its passengers are predominately employed, tax-paying citizens with a vested interest (via their tax dollars and/or the price they pay for their airline tickets) in its continued safe operation. Contrast that with the subway, which handles many orders of magnitude more passengers and whose passengers include a comparatively large percentage of persons with no sense of responsibility.
Anon_e_mouse ]
Automated service can and must be much safer than manual service. If it is not, something is inexcusably wrong with design, management, or maintenance.
Frankly, ATO is not supergenius stuff at this point from an engineering perspective. It's been in use for many years.
Yup!
So let me get this straight, ATO will require no staff and no maintenance?
No, only there will be more maintenance and staff, and it will be more expensive without ATO.
As far as I know, the Victoria Line system worked straight out of the box when opened in 1967. 30 years later, the system is seems to be coping with the highest traffic density of any of the Underground lines. On the other hand, the line is a simple end-to-end service, with some trains stopping short.
For that matter, even the Times Square shuttle was automated way back when. As I said, this is not supergenius stuff . . .
The Franklin Shuttle should have been automated after the reconstruction, they could have used the R-110A, or retrofitted the R-68. The automated 42 Street Shuttle used an R-21/22.
I'd ask why it wasn't, but then I'd probably find the responses kind of depressing.
Automation is particularly important on shuttles, where quick turnaround adds disproportionately to convenience. It's rather frustrating to sit on the GCT shuttle while it does nothing, knowing that you could walk down the tracks in half the time.
--It's much, much cheaper to run
--It makes the trains go faster
--It makes the trains safer
--It offers a more comfortable ride
--It cuts down on wear and tear
--It increases throughput, reduces crowding, makes better use of the existing infrastructure
If maintenance of an ATO system is more difficult than a conventional one, it's been badly designed. Equipment of this sort should be highly modular, and should *not* be repaired locally at board level.
Josh
This is Mr. Train Control and true authority on ATO. I agree that relays are great however, microprocessors are also great to emulate the relay logic in Boolean equations for both non-vital and vital applications. The systems in place today operate great including Grand Central Terminal with 57 Vital Processor Interlocking (VPI) systems located in bungalows in the bowels of GCT.
ATO is used successfully on the Lindenwold Line since 1968, WMATA, MARTA, Miami, Baltimore and LA. NYCT should go with ATO operation using conventional cab signaling. CBTC is not proven and is only a testing bed. We shall see what happens!!!!
David, do you mean ATO (Automatic Train Operation) a la BART
or were you advocating cab signals with Automatic Speed Control
(ASC)?
What if the trains had a yard sticker on each of it trains like the depot sticker on buses???? (Not the color coded sticker on the IRT!!!)
3TM
Why does the TA need ATO in the first place? As far as I'm concerned, the billions they will spend on the systems could be used to build the second avenue line.
BART was laughable at the beginning, and inefficient even today, 25 years later.
I'm sure MUNI and BART are fretting over the Y2K thing, but the TA's singalling doesn't need to know what day it is to work safely and efficiently.
Can you really see the TA effectively maintaining an enormous computer network?
I've trouble-shot microprocessor and _RELAY_ automations alike, and I'll take the relays anytime.
Dave
PS, I can spell, realy I kan
LOOKING OVER THE NEW CAPITAL PROGRAM, IT STATES THAT MONEY IS ALLOCATED FOR THE FIRST PHASE DEVELOPEMENT OF A NEW YARD FOR THE B DIVISION. DOES ANYBODY OUT THERE KNOW WHERE THIS NEW YARD WILL BE?
Information will come to he who does not shout.
Thanks for the fortune cookie answer. Must have taken you a long time to think that one up.
Thanks for the fortune cookie answer. Must have taken you a long time to think that one up.
I wish that people on this BB would just cut out the cheap shots and personal insults. If you don't have anything constructive to add, then just hold your tongue!
I don't like unprovocated shouting. You can shout now as there has been some exchange of mean words (and I am partly to blame), but I don't like people who just turn on their caps lock like the quintessential AOLer.
I don't like unprovocated shouting. You can shout now as there has been some exchange of mean words (and I am partly to blame), but I don't like people who just turn on their caps lock like the quintessential AOLer.
I wasn't coming down on you, I was coming down on Joe D Train for the nasty unprovoked comment that he hurled at you. It pisses me off. First a nasty comment directed at Dennis Lansky, then one directed at Salaam Allah Subway Photographer, now one directed at you. Why do people have to be so mean, nasty and sarcastic? I don't blame you for asking someone to take off his caps. That's shouting. Its almost as bad as spamming. I won't put it in big red letters again, but If someone doesn't have anything useful to contribute or something nice to say, they should hold their tongue (in this case, hold their keyboard).
Going by the posts earlier this week, the new B Division yard is to be in a section of the current LIRR Sunnyside yard, with a connection to the new 63rd St. tunnel.
Or so they say.
If the union wants to really inflame the riding public, why aren't the salaries of all TA officials printed in fliers? The Ta always cries poverty at contract time- how many millions of dollars are wasted at TA management paying hundreds- possibly thousands of executives and do nothing vice presidents 3 figure salaries. None of the riding public has any idea as to how much money is being paid to these individuals, nor how many of them are on the payroll or what their job duties are. The riding public always complains that bus drivers and train workers get paid too much- let them really see who gets paid too much- MTA management! Expose the salaries of MTA management and let the public attack them, instead of us.
If the union wants to really inflame the riding public, why aren't the salaries of all TA officials printed in fliers? The Ta always cries poverty at contract time- how many millions of dollars are wasted at TA management paying hundreds- possibly thousands of executives and do nothing vice presidents 3 figure salaries. None of the riding public has any idea as to how much money is being paid to these individuals, nor how many of them are on the payroll or what their job duties are. The riding public always complains that bus drivers and train workers get paid too much- let them really see who gets paid too much- MTA management! Expose the salaries of MTA management and let the public attack them, instead of us.
It is like that in any government agency. The peons toil and make crumbs, while the big execs do nothing and get rich. These positions are also political appointments. Ahh! Isn't politics wonderful?
Not just government--life is like that!
BOTH GET PAID TOO MUCH. THE FACT THAT TA WORKERS ARE EVEN CONSIDERING A STRIKE IS PROOF THAT THEY HAVE THERE HEADS IN THE CLOUDS. THEY SHOULD FIRE THEM ALL AND BREAK THE STINKEN UNION. LOOK WHAT THE UNION HAS SOON TO THE LIRR AND BUS MAINTENENCE
I am a conductor. I make $14 an hour. I work nights
weekends and holidays. I have to work varying shifts and
my days off change frequently. I don't get a lunch break
often, and living a normal life with my wife and three
children can be difficult.
The riding public curses and spits at me. My own bosses
are constantly trying to intimidate and harrass me. There
are poor facilities at the terminals, the restrooms in
some cases aren't fit for human use. The operating rules
are set up for the employee to fail. If you follow them
you will be late and penalized. If you are on time, then
you had to have violated the rules. Fine, untill something
goes wrong, and now you become the scape goat.
An ASSISTANT conductor, not even the man in charge of the
train at LIRR makes $24 per hour.
But what about this then: There are some what less than
3000 conductors in the TA now. But in RTO alone there are
over 5200 management personnel!
What pray tell do we need an Chief of service delivery if
we already have a VP for subways? Someone tell me this:
what exactly does the $85,000 a year Melanie Crawford do?
Each line has a Superintendent and two or three deputy
Supts. They in turn answer to the Distrct General Supt.
and his Deputies, who in turn answer to the ACTO for the
division (5 at last count) who answers to Nat Ford, who
answers to Mike Lombardi who answers to Joe Hoffman who
answers to Larry Reuter who answers to Virgil Conway who
answers to No ONE! Well maybe Pataki. but here's a secret.
Conway is appointed to a set term and CANNOT be fired!
Do you know there is a T.S.S. for every four RTO
employees. WHY? So these $58,000 a year fellows can knock
on my door when I'm home sick?
The entire office of employee policy and compliance? Isn't
that what labor relations is for? Or operations support
and review? Isn't that what operations planning does?
Employee availability, or sick control? NO BOTH.
Layer upon layer of buearacracy.
Let's see. 130 Livingston, 370 Jay, Chapel St. 1250
Broadway, W53'rd, Water pl. in The Bronx, Northern Blvd.
in Queens, AND a NEW building going up on 9th Av in
Manhattan!
Do you still think I make too much?
Let's cut the fat at the top, before we talk about the people who actually do something.
Let's cut the fat at the top, before we talk about the people who actually do something.
That's the TA--too many chiefs, not enough indians.
Sounds pretty top heavy. Then again, where I work the staff is down more than a third, perhaps half, but the number of division is unchanged. Each division has a director and a deputy director.
The TWU could always offer to do a good job without as many managers. THAT would be a productivity gain. In the private sector, they made the workers responsible and accountable for the work, and cut down on the number of middle managers.
We can "thank" David Gunn for overhauling the bureaucratic structure by putting more chiefs into high positions and doing numbers cutting on the indians. The riding public would be shocked if they truly knew how many unnecessary chiefs are working behind the scenes and we don't have enough conductors for crowd control purposes at Lex/53 for the PM rush. Of course, the union leadership makes six figure salaries too + expense accounts. Doesn't the Local 100 recording secretary make 6 figures as well?
I don't know the elected officers salaries. But I will find out for you.
But good point about David Gunn. before he showed up, there were only 300 non represented managerial staff members. NOW LOOK!
(pre-Gunn, post Gunn)
I think you'll find that MDBF, throughput, and on-time performance were not the best when there were only 300 non-represented employees. It also took six months to process a purchase order. I was among the early non-represented hires, and by the time I left it was down to a few days.
Lets just say some liberties were taken when there weren't all these top-heavy managers looking over people's shoulders. But the people who took them are mostly retired. The TWU needs to make the case that absent all this heavy handed, punative management, they will work hard and make the system run. People remember the past, and are skeptical. But as I said, in the private sector, management layers were severely cut in the 1990s and the workers kept working.
I'm not going to make excuses for the old days and I can't speak for other departments.
But in RTO you either run the train or you don't. How do you goldbrick that? I still don't see theneed for all that management here. In other departments maybe. All those gains in MDBF and through put, purchasing orders, have to do with the efforts of other departments.
Do we really need two departmets within RTO to deal with labos relations issues? Do really need two departments that deal with scheduling? Do we really need Melanie Crawford at $85,000 a year, so we can say we have a minority woman in management? I ask again: what exactly IS her job? General superintendant in charge, operations support and review? What is that? It's a made up job that takes in a little of personnel and a little of system safety and a little of labor relations and a little of training, and so on. All so they could get Melanie off the road, because she was so incompetent there, but they couldn't fire her!
Why couldn't they fire her? Was it because of Civil Service rules or the union? Kicking someone upstairs is a time-honored tradition among those who aren't allowed to run their businesses the way they want to.
It's political correctness. Superintendents don't have a union, they're management. She's a minority female, in largely male world.
They fall over themselves to appease her.
David Gun was quoted as saying I would rather deal with a patronage system than a civil servise system.Folks this is what we have a patronage system. The TA wanted accountability. They actualy think they have it.We lost 5000 hourly employees and gained 5000 managers.They dont pick they dont get paide overtime and they dont expose unsafe conditiouns.In other words they are paide to make it work at all costs.Those of you who believe the union is not doing there job should take note of the lenghts the TA will go to to bypass a union job. More on this later.
I take extreme exception to your statement that we (managers)don't expose unsafe conditions. On the contrary, it is the hourly employees who don't follow or selectively follow safety rules, that causes most of the accidents. Let me cite 3 recent examples.
1. I was accused of harassment because I insisted that one of my employees not where photo-grey lenses on duty at 205th St. station. He actually wrote a letter that I was inforcing PETTY safety rules.
2. Recently i stopped a Road car inspector from crossing the yard without his safety vest. Instead, I made him cross via the walkway. he cited me as the cause for his lateness.
3. After an incident where a train moved in jamaica yard while one of my employees was boarding at the rear, I re-instructed all employees that they are required to walk along the outside of the train and put a red flag on the head-out end before boarding and loading their equipment. the TWU Vice Chairman complained that i was making his people do too much walking.
The more I write, the more examples I can come up with. You can blame management for wanting productivity but no manager and no supervisor can force an employee to commit an unsafe act. I suggest that if you are a TA employee, you take the course "Actions Employees Can Take", offered by the Dept. of System Safety. You'd then realize how much power you actually have and why accidents still happen.
By the way, I have an employee who has had eighteen (18) accidents in ten years. On the occassion of the 18th, I was investigating the accident when I stumbled onto her 17 previous mishaps. Of the 18 accidents, 17 were do to improper procedures or inattention. The fact that no one took any action previously IS POOR MANAGEMENT. That one I give you.
(3): I've talked to my supervisors on numberous occasions about the possibility of putting blue lamps outside the cars when they are being worked on in the yard. Response: another piece of equipment to be concerned about.........As for the 18 accidents, I don't think people are out to intentionally hurt themselves unless they are suicidal. Let's face it, some people are born klutzes!
True, but good management removes "born-klutzes" from positionsin which they are a danger to themselves and others. No one so inattentive as to chalk up that kind of record should be allowed to remain in a job which requires constant attention. What I would like to know is how long she had been one of Steve's employees. Did he take over from someone else and inherit her? Did she transfer in from somewhere else that was glad to see her go?
AMEN BROTHER. I was cited by the barn chief at my particular yard for the same infraction...moving a train with RCIs "under" the train. Trouble with that charge was the RCIs in question were assisting with third rail jumper cables so the only way the train could POSSIBLY move was with them authorizing the move by procedure which is not to jump the train from under it. When I threatened a reverse charge through my yardmaster with failure to pull the cord and place red flags/lamps, the barn chief backed off but put out a BS memorandum which doesn't have authority in RTO.
Steve, in examples 1,2,and 3 in your post, I hope your fellow managers backed you up and shrugged off those lame excuses for unsafe acts. Example 4 is a bit more troubling, That not only shows bad management but a group of union coworkers that don't care about their fellow human beings. I am an area safety committee person at my job in a manufacturing plant, as a union member I counsel employees whom I observe committing unsafe acts and suggest corrective measures to management WITHOUT naming names, However, continued disregard for oneself and others will result in a counseling session with the Union EH&S Specialist and furthermore it is very likely that management will become aware of the employee's behavior pattern, resulting in discipline. It is the responsibility of ALL employees to help their fellow workers to be safe. Keep on keeping on, Steve, But I hope the TWU gets a good contract.
[Those of you who believe the union is not doing there job should take note of the lenghts the TA will go to to bypass a union job.]
Yes, but you might begin by asking yourself why that is.
In the course of my work career I've been all over the place--union/non-union, employee/management, government/private enterprise--and the upshot is that I'd support unions strongly if they stuck to decent wages and working conditions rather than protecting the corrupt, the lazy, the superfluous, the incompetent, and the entrenched. I think most people would--there are more workers than managers in this country by far--but the union movement has effectively killed itself by substituting greed and politics for a fare shake for the working guy, and the unfortunate result has been that many workers who were once middle class have slipped into the ranks of the working poor.
Good post. The immediate question it brings to mind is what the ratio of management to staff is for other transit operations, particularly privately run ones (if any such can be found these days).
Well as a good example, I used to work for New Jersey Transit. On the North East Corridor operation there is ONE road forman (like our TSS) for the entire division, which includes the North Jersey Coast line, and the Raritan Valley. There is one Trainmaster per shift.(a dispatcher) Mechanical department has a General Forman at NY Penn station, and car inspectors and electricians at Four locations answering to him.
This is the entire complement of non operating personnel for the entire Newark divisionin one shift.
Big difference huh?
To be sure. Now the trick is to quantify it, e.g., put it in terms of hard ratios and costs across the organization. I've seen it done to demonstrate the bloatedness of the BOE.
That's easy, Let's fire Melanie Crawford, and now we can
hire THREE conductors!
Get rid of just half the stupidintendents, we could end
OPTO!
Have Nat Ford run RTO with out Mike Lombardi looking over
his shoulder, and you could put back the tower operator at
Rockerfeller center 24/7 for a year!
End Larry Reuters $3,000 a month housing "stipend" and you
could have toilet paper in all TA bathrooms for years!
Fire the private security guard on the 13th floor, and
then you could have a station agent at a stop where the
part time booth was closed!
Quantified enough?
You guys out there moaning over the bloated salaries of the admin TA officials, you're not the Lone Ranger on that score. Here is California we have the LA Unified School District, which, thank God, I'm not a part of. Their whole structure in coming apart at the seams because of a bloated, overpaid bureaucracy, while teachers are short of paper, supplies, the classrooms are overcrowded, books are in short supply, the rooms are stiffling hot during the summer sessions. Those of you who believe that tough unions are not needed are in need of a brain scan yourself. Th only way to alleviate this is to take these admin bums on and pledge that we aren't going to stand for this crap.
I hope those who do the yeoman work for the NYC system will stand tall on this. Without the workers doing the heavy load, the whole system
would collapse.
You can't compare NJT or any other comuter RR to the NYCT unless they carry 3.5 million daily riders.
Hey those guys do 100 miles an hour, and those trains although not as frequent are just as crowded.
And those manager employee ratios hold fairly equal to any railroad. LIRR has a handful of road formen for the entire RR. There is a general supt. transportation who answers to the CTO, and he answers to Predergast. Simple.
Not the "who's who" of TA we have here.
The other thing that struck me about the TA org structure is that there were way too many levels between the guy at the top and the guy in the cab. That's a recipe for inefficiency in any non-military organization (and some might add in the typical military one).
On the other hand, the MTA has special concerns. If I recall correctly--it was a long time ago--one of their problems was that union supervisors didn't do much supervising, so they had to substitute ostensbily management employees to do the same thing.
"The other thing that struck me about the TA org structure is that there were way too many levels between the guy at the top and the guy in the cab. "
Josh, from an organizational behavior standpoint, that's a very valid observation. I' have over the last 15 years, seen the org structure of the TA bloat vertically. Several new titles and levels of beauracracy were created. Some, to parallel management of other rail systems while others were created to have a place to promote some people to a higher title when they didn't know it was just plain time for them to go. From what I hear, though, the TA org-chart will be somewhat flattened over the next year or so as some of these same people retime or move on and their jobs are eliminated rather than being re-filled.
[From what I hear, though, the TA org-chart will be somewhat flattened over the next year or so as some of these same people retime or move on and their jobs are eliminated rather than being re-filled.]
That's good to hear. I also understand that there's an extra supervisory layer, nominally management employees, to get around the fact that the existing supervisors didn't do an effective job. Still, the ratio of managers/employees is pretty scary. The only way to deal with a bad union situation perhaps, but scary nonetheless . . .
I don't have a problem how these people are employed, or what their status is. It's just that they are SO many of them!
[I don't have a problem how these people are employed, or what their status is. It's just that they are SO many of them!]
And too many cooks . . .
Actually, you can, because there are formulas for such things that are routinely used in business; though the best comparison might be to a private organization of similar size.
"I am a conductor. I make $14 an hour"
"An ASSISTANT conductor, not even the man in charge of the
train at LIRR makes $24 per hour. "
E! I know that you would not intentionally mislead anyone but when you say you make $14 per hour compared to the $24 paid to the LIRR Assistant C/R, you know that it is not a totally fair comparison.
For one thing, the salary you cite for yourself is not the top pay for a C/R while the LIRR salary is. Secondly, you would have to admit that the LIRR assistant C/R must know a lot more about the mechanical end and the physical characteristics of the system than a TA C/R does (yourself not withstanding).
Someone tell me this: what exactly does the $85,000 a year Melanie Crawford do?
As for the person you mention above, she serves a most useful function in balancing the scales of the ever-present EEO and Title VII.
Get the info from the horse's mouth.
http://www.osc.state.ny.us/divisions/pubauth/page420.htm
See how goverment created a runaway train run by a politician instead of a motorman.
Given the size of the organization, the number of six figure salaries and their magnitudes are extraordinarily low by comparison to private enterprise.
Maybe that's part of the problem--they aren't paying competitive wages.
Okay, top pay for a C/r is $19 and change.
Yes, LIRR C/Rs know more of the physical characteristics of their sytem. But as a C/R here, do I really need to know how long a platform is and where all the switches are? I need to know how to get people from where they are to where they want to be. Mechanical knowledge? The nearest RCI shouldn't be more than a couple of miles from my location. If a LIRR train lays down, where is the nearest person who can help fix it? Jamaica? Riverhead? Montauk? (Sarcasm aside, I really don't know ).
OK, there are a lot more qualifications to working on the rail road. But they don't get spit on, nor do they deal with the volume of passengers or make as many trips as we do.
As to salary, current starting rate for TA conductors is $13.05 per hour. Those fellas start at $17. Our top rate is $18! And flaggers can make $19.77, but their top is $24.
I don't neccesarily advocate pay parity. I am only trying to illustrate the gulf in attitudes by the people who run the two different operations. And to show that uninformed gentleman who's post I was responding to, that we are NOT overpaid.
As I have said before, it's not about money, we make do quite well. It's about issues.
Sorry to interject this subject again, but there are political considerations as to who gets paid what. TA workers are required to live in the city -- that determines the social and ethnic background of its workforce. Commuter rail workers live in the suburbs, and are a very different group. You'll find that even among NYC workers, the salaries of workers in agencies that are permitted to live in the suburbs is far higher than those required to live in the city.
I agree that the pay difference is not reasonable. But as for many other public positions, I think the NYC workers are only SLIGHTLY underpaid, as a result of not keeping up with the growth of the economy post-1997. They should catch up.
I think the suburban public employees are SUBSTANTIALLY overpaid, and that the City should not be sacrificed to support it. I only hope MTA will be a lot tougher in the LIRR contract negotiations than in the NYCTA negotiations. Fairness requires it.
Too late. The conductors got 11% and the engineers got 10% over three year contracts. Currently a LIRR engineer makes $26.32 hr.
Transit workers are NOT required to live within the city limits.
Alex L says transit workers are not required to live in the city limits, but I sure was when I joined in 1986. I thought that only the uniforms and teachers were allowed to live outside.
Who is right? Has something changed?
Transit Workers do not have to Live in the City Limits. Look on any Transit Exam Notice. No City residency Required.
I myself Lived in the City when I joined TA but 10 Years ago I moved up to the Poconos. Its about a 2 Hour Drive form My Terminal in the Bronx to my home. Thats if you dive 65 to 70 MPH. I give my self 3 Hours to get to work.
Gee, Dave, that's about how long it takes me to get there, and I live inside the city limits. Maybe it's time to move.
Listen Larry. Get you facts and figures straight. NYCTA employees are not required to live within city limits, at least not the hourly paid employees. If you take a managerial position you also agree to live within city limits within 2 years after taking the position even if it requires to move back in. If the logic that I assume you are applying here were to follow through then the managers would be paid less as living within city employees. That's a load of "baloonjuice".
The bottom line is simple...parity for the hourly workers....same work performed and same responsibility as other conductors and engineers throughout the region. Transit employees are always shortchanged for the magnificent job they do. I should know. I've been one for 21 years 18 mos as a bus operator and 19 yrs. 9 mos as a motorman/train operator. If you really believe that we are only slightly underpaid then think about this, while you go to operation sail and Ticker-Tape parades, and any other major event that this great city throws for the public, remember how you got there. Most cases is by public transportation... Transit Workers... We give up Holidays and every other celebration day to service the public in this city. We understand that is our job and responsibility but for goodness sake, why is everyone so afraid to pay us a decent compensation. We deliver the service better than anyone or anything else!!!! I am rambling a bit but I am sick and tired of folks thinking that we are paid sufficiently. What is sufficient payment for not having Christmas or Thanksgiving or birthdays or graduations with your children? The little known fact is that the TA gives 14 train operators and 14 conductors off per day (that is in addition to those who are already scheduled for RDO's.) On holidays it used to be in seniority order but the TA changed that to 1st come 1st served. I won't go into my diatribe about that and the favoritism that goes on behind that nonsense. Let it suffice to say that as a TA employee one is subjected to many many things that would never float in any other industry whether it be public or private... to be continued when I cool down some... sorry about the ranting...
(Get the fact straight -- hourly TA employees can live outside the city, but managers must live inside).
Is that the rule? Then how come whenever I hear about the residence of high TA officials, they all live outside? I think Gunn was the only one to live inside.
It does distress me that people posting here, who prior to this labor discussion were posting about ways to improve service, and now complaining about lousy treatment. There is credibility -- no one here doesn't care about their job. But somehow I don't think these are the issues being discussed at the bargaining table, at least from what I can read in the newspaper. We'll just have to see what happens on December 15.
The fact is, there is a resenency requirement for TA managers. When I was promoted, I was required to sign a waiver, however. The waiver states that I may continue to live in my current residence BUT should I ever decide to move, I am required to move into the confines of the 5 boroughs. I don't know of a case where this has been enforced or what the penalty for non-compliance would be.
I've tried to stay out of this discussion, but here's what's been bugging me about those who complain specifically about days off:
1. There are a lot of organizations that require people to work on holidays and have limited opportunities to select other days off. Transit is only one of them.
2. There are a lot of jobs that don't require people to work on holidays and that provide for you to schedule time off pretty much at will.
Therefore: if you're going to gripe about being in category one, find a job that will put you in category two. In my (non-transit) job, I nominally work 8 to 5 five days a week, but I'm on call 24x7, and I get called frequently. I've decided the tradeoffs are worth it. Others I know disagree with me, and consequently they have other types of jobs that don't require the crazy hours - although they may have other stresses that I don't have.
On some of the other issues you folks have been complaining about - cleanliness of crew quarters, for one example - I don't disagree, they need to be improved. But the schedule is basic to the job and you can't say you didn't know it when you accepted the job.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
He's got a point.
I have a job where I can pretty much take off whenever I want. On the other hand, the pay is low compared with any other job available to someone with my background, I don't get paid holidays, and I have a position where IT DOESN'T REALLY MATTER if I show up or not. I've put up with it thus far because its been great for parenting, and has allowed my wife to advance in her career.
That said, as a general rule when managers or employees are in a position to do a favor (by granting a day off or covering someone else's day off), it is in their interest to do it. But in a rule-based labor situation, you get guys who just do the minimum under the rules. That's bad management, but that's what happens in the public sector.
[interesting comments about 9-to-5 vs. work-on-holidays jobs]
I completely agree with your basic point - people who don't want to work nights/weekends/holidays shouldn't be working for a 24/7 organization like NYCTA. Yet there seems to be another issue that's much more difficult to handle. Based on some of the postings here, the TA apparently has a not all uncommon practice of ordering people to work on long-scheduled days off. That is completely unacceptable; unless you're talking about workers who are hired with the understanding that they'll be on-call, scheduled days off should be sarcosanct except in dire emergency.
That's true. But I have always had the distinct impression that "on-call" is the norm in the transportation field. I know that my son-in-law (a trucker) is considered "on-call", subject to the federal rules on sleep and hours on the road. His company has been good to him, but on the other hand my brother-in-law (also a trucker) missed the birth of both of his children because he was on the road.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Umm, Asst. Conductors need to know EVERY platform length in on the LIRR even if they never work that line. Tell me that is a requirement in the subway?
Rule 70m and rule 70m-1 and rule 70m-2. here are so many different types of equpitment in the subways that it is required for motormen/train operators and conductors to know the length of stations and what type of equiptment fits in those stations. In actuality, Motormen/Train operators have a greater responsibility because of the different types of equpitment and different lengths of stations in the system.
There are many different platform lengths on the LIRR. There are only a few in NYCT.
If standardizing platform lengths means they could reduce the level of conductors salary on the LIRR to that of the the NYCTA, then its a big money saver. I don't think LIRR workers earn more because they perform better. I think they earn more because of who they are, and who their riders are.
[If standardizing platform lengths means they could reduce the level of conductors salary on the LIRR to that of the the NYCTA, then its a big money saver. I don't think LIRR workers earn more because they perform better. I think they earn more because of who they are, and who their riders are.]
Really. How long can it possibly take to memorize platform lengths? Or to put it another way, this is a skill?
I think that if you exposed the salaries of TA Officials, and put the salaries of private-sector workers in comparable positions in organizations of comparable size, I think you'd find the TA Officials are paid much less.
The question I have is not about those six figure salaries--you're right, of course--but whether the management/staff ratio is too high as it is in other bloated bureacracies like the Board of Education.
(Bloated management at the BOE).
Full time equivalent staff per 20 students (1997). NYC teaching 1.8 (mostly absorbed by special ed), non-teaching 0.6. Rest of New York State teaching 2.0, non-teaching 0.9. Source: U.S. census bureau, governments division. There is bloated and then there is bloated.
That's astounding. I'd thank you for posting it, but I think I'll have nightmares tonight.
(Nightmares)
New to the site, you missed my whole discussion of relative taxes and spending in NYC and state. As a result of a deal in the state legislature.
WINNER #1: New York City "benefits" from Medicaid spending which, as a share of its residents' income, is 2 1/2 times the national average. This funds the booming, overstaffed "non-profit" health and social services industries that are the backbone of the "reform" Democartic coalition.
WINNER #2: In exchange, the rest of the state "benefits" from more than its fair share of spending on transportation, education, parks, pork, state universities, etc. The benefits for most upstaters are modest -- despite the wealthiest road crews in the country, we don't have the best roads. This is the Republican political base. Even with all the favors, its just about bankrupted Nassau County.
LOSER #1: New York City spends less, as a share of its residents' personal income, on schools, transportation, parks, culture, and just about everything else except police and social services. Unfairly low levels of state aid, and high state mandated social service spending, are a cause. NYC can spend less because in the rest of the state you need to provide services and goldbrick jobs, while in the city public agencies are not required to provide services.
LOSER #2: High taxes (especially for new businesses that don't get special tax breaks) and high debt.
A great plan if your planning to cash in and then move out, as most of our political represenatives and their cliques are.
Not that far from my take on it. I'm beginning to think we need our own Proposition 13, because everybody, whether up or downstate, is suffering from the current state of affairs.
(Proposition 13)
Not a favorite for me. Cut taxes without increasing equality and the same powerbases would get paid, the same pushy people would get actual services, and Brooklyn would get stiffed even worse than now.
[Not a favorite for me. Cut taxes without increasing equality and the same powerbases would get paid, the same pushy people would get actual services, and Brooklyn would get stiffed even worse than now.]
Unfortunately it's difficult to make government efficient or politics honest--you can only hope to minimize it.
(Can't make politics efficent, only minimize it)
Spoken by someone who is rich enough not to require public services. Take away a little money and some earning power (perhaps due to disability), and suddenly decent public services seem like a good idea. Notice how AFTER spending on the poor was cut severly, suddenly there is all this resistance to further budget cuts. You mean ME?
One problem with government is that it takes money from working people and (when not wasting it) uses it for the old and the young. Aside from the insider/outside distinction, politics is being driven by the Baby Boomers, the most hypocritical and greedy generation in U.S. history.
When they were young, they were liberals -- they wanted to party and wanted someone else to pay. In middle age, they became conservative -- they don't want to pay for someone else. In 1994, those in the Baby Boom age group were those most likely to vote Republican. As they age, they'll be all in favor of higher taxes. I'll have to work until I drop just to pay them.
[Spoken by someone who is rich enough not to require public services. Take away a little money and some earning power (perhaps due to disability), and suddenly decent public services seem like a good idea. Notice how AFTER spending on the poor was cut severly, suddenly there is all this resistance to further budget cuts. You mean ME?
One problem with government is that it takes money from working people and (when not wasting it) uses it for the old and the young. Aside from the insider/outside distinction, politics is being driven by the Baby Boomers, the most hypocritical and greedy generation in U.S. history.
When they were young, they were liberals -- they wanted to party and wanted someone else to pay. In middle age, they became conservative -- they don't want to pay for someone else. In 1994, those in the Baby Boom age group were those most likely to vote Republican. As they age, they'll be all in favor of higher taxes. I'll have to work until I drop just to pay them.]
You mistake my call for minimal government for a Republican/conservative type call for abandonment of the poor.
Nothing could be further from the truth. I'm in favor of doing *more* for the poor, not less. But:
--At a national level. A region such as New York City cannot take on the burdens of the nation's poor without losing it's ability to compete. Ultimately, that produces an area that is economically unviable or, in the case of New York, with its unusual strengths, limping. We cannot go it alone here without hurting the very people we purport to help; and we've already driven out the middle class.
--At the head end. By that I mean that our poverty bureaucracy and self-defeating social programs burn money *without* solving the problems of the poor, and do that in a fabulously inefficient, insensitive, and demeaning way. People need jobs, not welfare or "workfare." Government is by its nature corrupt and inefficient, and subsidies make an inefficient use of resources. Insofar as we provide government housing, hospitals, etc. we waste money that could be helping the people it was intended to serve while creating a demeaning and corrosive system of distorted priorities. We end up with the paradox of hundres of thousands of people who are being paid to do *nothing*--and that corrodes their sense of self worth and morals.
Let government be the employer of last resort and provide opportunities for education; then let people make their *own* decisions and take responsibility for their lives. We're wealthy enough so that no one need suffer the privations of earlier poor generations; it's our task now to use resources wisely, rather than squandering them, pork barelling them, or destroying opportunity or initiative.
Well thought out, and compelling. I agree with you on this one Josh.
Erik
[I agree with you on this one Josh.]
Thanks, Erik. It's good to know that I'm not alone here . . .
[(Proposition 13)
Not a favorite for me. Cut taxes without increasing equality and the same powerbases would get paid, the same pushy people would get actual services, and Brooklyn would get stiffed even worse than now.]
Proposition 13 wasn't a tax cut _per se_. It generally froze property assessments at existing levels, thereby preventing new construction from getting hit with sky-high assessments and taxes. A much better and much more recent example of a true tax cut is Initiative 695 in Washington. It abolished a burdensome excise tax on motor vehicles (which could amount to several hundred dollars a year on some new cars), replacing it with a flat $30 fee, and requires voter approval for virtually all tax increases. I would be tickled pink to see something like that in New York - especially one that would abolish all tolls and order massive property tax reductions in the suburbs and massive income tax reductions in the city. Yeah, I know, it'll never happen, but we can dream, can't we?
[I would be tickled pink to see something like that in New York - especially one that would abolish all tolls and order massive property tax reductions in the suburbs and massive income tax reductions in the city. Yeah, I know, it'll never happen, but we can dream, can't we?]
At least there's been a gradual move in that direction.
I'd keep tolls, though. People who use the transportation infrastructure should pay for it, and to my mind that means people should pay jointly for the road/subway ROW that they use, as they use it, and those who create local pollution should pay for the extra cost of low-pollution transportation in transportation types that are amenable to it.
Yes, they probably make less than private-sector counterparts, but, there are a lot more of them than any private company would every keep on their payroll.
And the TA employees are paid far more than they would be paid in the private sector. TO GO ON STRIKE IS STUPID
I diasagree. Engineers on the class one railroads do near $100,000 a year with over time. A conductor with BNSF can earn $65,000 doing a METRA run out of Chicago's Union station.
TA conductor top rate: $19.77 (flagging only)
LIRR conductor top rate: $25
only the short lines in the tri state area pay less than we get. And comparing them to us is like comparing a AAA ball player to Lou Gherig, or Reggie Jackson.
Does anyone know the Amtrak numbers of these two F40PH locomotives?
I met up with William Steil Yesterday for a short tour of the London Underground.
Following suitable refreshment at Victoria Station we ventured onto the Circle Line for a slightly tedious ride to Liverpool Street. We took time out to observe the superb restoration of the station roof which still looks resplendent following it’s big clean up modernization , and extension several years ago. William wanted to travel above ground so we caught the Great Eastern local service to Stratford.
The biting cold wind chilled us but the sun was out and we decided to head for thegreen pastures of Essex with a trip around the Hainault loop. Diving in and out of the Ground we passed quickly through the suburbs and with one change at Woodford we were soon back at Stratford for a photshoot of the new station.
We did not have long to wait for our 96 tube stock which made short work of the trip to Canary Wharf. We felt dwarfed by the cavernous station which is best described asahuge hole in the ground with a mezzanine floor, not unlike an Independant Station. We struggled to envisage the passenger numbers for which the station has obviously been designed ,crowding onto tube size stock at five minute intervals.
Our next stop was the Dockhands station for a trip to Becton which neither of us had done before. After changing trains at Poplar we passed through a huge expanse of London which has sprouted development but it is obvious there is still a lot to do. On the whole I found the area depressing, it seems the developers have been left to run
riot. The only way to describe it is “ a mess.”
Our swift return to Poplar was rewarded by the news that the Docklands extension to
Lewisham had opened that morning and the next train was in a few minutes. We
decided not to wait but to catch an earlier train to Canary Wharf to buy some
sandwiches for lunch. Our Lewisham train was waiting on our return to the station.
Fellow enthusiasts have taken over the four railfan window seats, but we had adequate
views from the front to enjoy the ride to Lewisham. The new tunnel under the Thames
was the highlight of the trip.
At Lewisham we changed for the Surface rail journey to New Cross and then it was
back to LT metals for a ride through Mark Brunnel’s Thames Tunnel to Wapping
enjoying our sandwiches on the way. After admiring the station restoration and lithographs we returned to Canada Water and back onto the Jubilee.
We then decided to visit Easing Broadway to view some main line express trains and the Heathrow Express at full tilt. The Central Line was our host for this journey and William felt quite at home with the right hand running after White City.
We were not disappointed at Ealing with a wide selection of diesel and electric expresses passing through at 100mph plus just a few feet from us. A hot drink was called for and Burger King obliged.
We returned to central London via the District Line and “Express” Piccadilly from Acton Town to Hammersmith.
I bid farewell to William here after a great touring day.
Special note to William - hope you got home safely.
Simon
Swindon UK
Made it back home safe.
Simon, many thanks are in order for your comradeship on the metals of the UndergrounD and the DLR. First-rate experience!!
I'll write more when I haven't been up for 30 hours.
Simon
I didn't see your later post when I replied to your previous one. Just a couple of extra points.
Have you noticed how most of the Beckton Line stations are the reverse of the traditional cost-saving humps: Descend a ramp to stop (wears out brakes) ascend a ramp to start (more power for an uphill start).
Also, whenever I have travelled on the Hainault loop, it has always been deserted (even during rush hour). I have never understood why LT wants to split off the loop and add it to the Chelsea-Hackney line, I don't see that the combined Hainault-Epping service is the cause of the Central Line misery, or am I missing something?
Max
> Also, whenever I have travelled on the Hainault loop, it has always
> been deserted (even during rush hour). I have never understood why
> LT wants to split off the loop and add it to the Chelsea-Hackney
> line, I don't see that the combined Hainault-Epping service is the
> cause of the Central Line misery, or am I missing something?
It's probably just a way to reduce some operational complexity. The Central line's got two western terminals and three eastern terminals (Hainault loop clockwise, Hainault loop counterclockwise, and Epping). If they can give up some of that to the new line it simplifies scheduling quite a bit.
-Dave
Dave,
Yes, multiple routes always add to unreliability and reduce capacity, but as a general rule, the further out of town they are the less problematic. I am not saying that LT has its figures wrong, but I would be interested to know why splitting the Central Line has a higher priority than splitting the Northern Line.
Now to get really heretical. One of the appeals of the NYC subway is its endless complexity, but would a simpler system with excellent interchanges be more reliable and have more capacity.
Max
Max,
For many years I travelled the Hainault loop, many times standing. Things may well have changed over the years. things were never bad on the loop itself but by the time the train reached Leytonstone it was usaully heaving. Congestion was always compounded at Stratford where BR commuters joined.
Now the Jubilee has opened things will certainly alter.
Is there any possibilty of Chelsea - Hackney goig ahead ?
Simon
Swindon UK
Simon,
LT seems to always keep one project at a time on the boil, so I guess that the next project will be to extend the East London Line north and south. I can never tell whether the Croxley link is going to happen or not, an obvious project that blows hot and cold (one of the problems of Underground lines that theve the city boundary?) If we say five years for those projects, plus another five for wrangling, then Chelsea-Hackney could begin in 2010.
WHat I would have done is to keep the Jubilee line going from Stratford to take over all North London Line passenger services between Canning Town and Caledonian Road, then swing down to a temporary terminus at Kings Cross. It wouldn't have cost that much more than the rest of the JLE, and then the authorisation for the remainder would then have been come very quickly. The Hainault loop could then have been added soon after. I guess I must have been catching it on bad days!
Max
hello everyone, i am doing a project for the smith barney quality of life research competitition concerning new york city subway schedules and how there are usually delays during rush hours and time people need them the most. i need some help on finding more research done by people on this and on ideas which may help change this problem. if anyone can help me, please contact me at this e-mail address: xaznsawluix@aol.com
thank you
Diane
Does anyone have any documents or materials on Mercury Rectifiers and similar electrical components used in the NYC Subway Systems
I have a friend,,in Paris ,C.O.P.E.F.member(RATP Fanclub),looking for this info
Thank you
Steve
914 668 9218
I was wondering, I know the T/A was replacing Rotary converters with solid state, and that they had a number of mercury arc systems, and I was wondering if they are replacing the latter now also. I know they've had a flakey history in on board applications (The new haven washboards did rather poorly with them, but Silverliners did well), but for wayside substations, I believe they've done much better (the Lacawanna used them).
Are there any mercury arc substations left? What's the level of technology used (air cooled, water cooled, etc)? What's the reliability of the tubes themselfs like?
I need some ideas. I need to replace my computer this next couple of weeks. I have narrowed them down to the 2 following, and these 2 only 1-HP Pavilion or 2 Compaq. The 2 I have picked are just have about the same exact features, and have what I want or need. Your imput will be greatly appreciated. Thanks
I need some ideas. I need to replace my computer this next couple of weeks. I have narrowed them down to the 2 following, and these 2 only 1-HP Pavilion or 2 Compaq. The 2 I have picked are just have about the same exact features, and have what I want or need. Your imput will be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Without knowing what's inside the case, I couldn't make a judgement. I'm a tech. I build my own equipment. If I were to buy a store-bought computer (no chance of this actually happening), I would want to know how upgradable each is. What kind of processor do they have? What kind of motherboard is in each, and what is the most advanced processor that the motherboard will handle? What brand of hard drive is in each? I have had horrible experiences with Seagate drives. I bought 2 Seagate drives. I sent one back for warranty replacement, and the other one I sent back twice for replacement. It crapped out again. Now I have to send it back again. By next July, the damn thing will be out of warranty. I've had better luck with Western Digital drives. I've also heard horror stories about Maxtor hard drives. My suggestion to you would be to go where they are knowledgeable, like Comp USA. Talk to a tech, or someone in the store that knows his stuff and pick his brain. You also might inquire in the newsgroups. To your surprise, you might find out that both are identical inside the case. When it comes to electronic equipment, that is often the case. The only difference being the Brand name(and the packaged software).
We have had problems with HP monitors (3 yrs ago) at work. A lot of Out of Box failures. (8 out of 40). Though this could be our VAR.
With the spring-like weather of Saturday, I took another trip on the Franklin Shuttle, riding from Fulton Street down to Botanic Garden Station.
I took the opportunity to do a walk-through of the route from the street: stopped to take some shots at the Carroll Street footbridge; got some pics of the remains of the former Consumer's Park station and some through-the-fence train shots at various cross-street bridges.
On my return trip northbound, I stopped off at Botanic Garden to get some shots of the historic Eastern Parkway railroad tunnel. It is at this point that I noticed an anomoly peculiar to the line: because of the curviture of the tunnel wall by the front of the station, there is not enough clearance for the signal system. It is situated all the way down outside the end of the tunnel (about six car lengths away). I assume this was an oversight and that the more reasonable approach would have been to have had the signal built into the platform (This is done, in some rare cases).
Doug aka BMTman
For 1998 and 1999 views of the Franklin Shuttle "before and after"...Forgotten NY is, of course, where to turn.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Franklin%20Ave%20station/franklin.html
For 1998 and 1999 views of the Franklin Shuttle "before and after"...Forgotten NY is, of course, where to turn.
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Franklin%20Ave%20station/franklin.html
Wow! I was on Forgotten NY's Franklin Avenue page just a couple of days ago. The new stuff wasn't there. Its there now.
While I love the new shuttle, I'm a bit disappointed that it was rebuilt. This line had a lot of history. It was almost a musuem with it's old stations and structures. Now all of that has been removed, and it looks brand new. Good for riders, but still sad. It's as if the old Franklin Ave. shuttle has been destroyed.
Oh well, I guess progress is good.
Well. the Franklin Shuttle is not entirely rebuilt.
The open cut portion is substantially the same, though most of the Botanic Gardens platform has been removed, and the station interior redone.
On the elevated portion, the bridges are all new, but there is still plenty for the antiquarian to see that is 1906 construction, especially the abutted embankments.
Franklin Avenue station is especially jarring--you have to really reach back into your memory to figure out what is where. I especially miss the trees that softened the station and surrounding area.
But it is a fine modern station in its own right.
Maybe they'll plant a few elms or such where the old trees were taken down. They should NOT allow ailanthus trees to grow there.
There's a chunk of somebody (Dean Street's?) canopy lying upside-down in a salvage-yard just south of Atlantic Avenue, if anybody's interested. It's pure 1906 stuff.
Wayne
Yeah, I reported that station awning/canopy on my first Franklin Shuttle trip. I would guess it came from the demolition of either Dean Street or Park Place. And it's sad to say it, but it looks like the section is being readied for the welder's torch any day now.
One of these days I might muster up the courage -- take a walk over to that salvage yard -- and see if the old Dual Contracts' section will go up on the auction block or end up as pure scrap.
Doug aka BMTman
[Yeah, I reported that station awning/canopy on my first Franklin Shuttle trip. I would guess it came from the demolition of either Dean Street or Park Place. And it's sad to say it, but it looks like the
section is being readied for the welder's torch any day now.
One of these days I might muster up the courage -- take a walk over to that salvage yard -- and see if the old Dual Contracts' section will go up on the auction block or end up as pure scrap.]
They'd probably be willing to sell it for a relatively low price. Scrap metal prices aren't particularly high right now, as far as I know, and by selling the awning intact the scrap yard would avoid having to cut it up. I suppose it wouldn't be the easiest thing to handle and transport, but it sure would make a nice conversation piece in a railfan's backyard.
Or as part of an elevated platform for Branford's el cars or as a disguise for providing access. Wood plank platform an all.
While I love the new shuttle, I'm a bit disappointed that it was rebuilt. This line had a lot of history. It was almost a musuem with it's old stations and structures. Now all of that has been removed, and it looks brand new. Good for riders, but still sad. It's as if the old Franklin Ave. shuttle has been destroyed.
Oh well, I guess progress is good.
Maybe what they should have done was restore it, rather than rebuild it. They should have done the same thing with Alabama Ave. thru Crescent St. on the Jamaica line. and Marcy Ave. All those stations date back to the 19th Century. They had even more history.
They HAVE left the ironwork at Crescent Street and Norwood Avenue and perhaps at Van-Siclen Avenue, at least; the canopies overhead have been replaced but the original supports still stand. Alabama and Cleveland have been TOTALLY replaced.
Crescent Street was in bad shape before the rehab - the station would sway back and forth as trains arrived and left. It was a nice touch, leaving the original ironwork.
Wayne
They HAVE left the ironwork at Crescent Street and Norwood Avenue and perhaps at Van-Siclen Avenue, at least; the canopies overhead have been replaced but the original supports still stand. Alabama and Cleveland have been TOTALLY replaced.
Crescent Street was in bad shape before the rehab - the station would sway back and forth as trains arrived and left. It was a nice touch, leaving the original ironwork.
Wayne
Yeah. Only the original canopy ironwork is left. Nothing else is original. They can't leave anything historic alone.
Well, they DID have to replace the wooden roofs (which were rotting) and the wooden platform surfaces (which were also rotting). Concrete and aluminum are the next best things. At least some vestige of the past was retained. Not so at AL and Cleveland. Perhaps the ironwork there had rusted past redemption.
Sometimes they restore original tile surfaces to like-new condition. Case in point: the Union Square station on the "L" - here, they blasted away 75 years of grime, filth, munge &c and brought the tile band (which sits above the new white-and-green panels) back to vibrant life once again, as if it were new. Ditto for the Broadway Line, same station. You can even see the little "1828"s in the corner of the plaques. Sometimes they even go "retro" - i.e. Broad Street, Fulton Street (Grecian Revival), and now, 8th Avenue-14th Street. Whoever drew THAT one up did their homework for sure. They have apparently created this work in sections (just like the originals) and are mounting it on laths bolted to the wall. The last of the three BMT stations to wear IND tile has had it buried.
Wayne
[Ditto for the Broadway Line [14th-Union Square], same station. You can even see the little "1828"s in the corner of the plaques.]
What does that date signify?
The plaques show a sort of a rural scene (imagine that in NYC today) - I believe the date indicates that the scene depicted in the plaque was what existed in the year 1828.
They did a SUPER job of restoring this one. Mr. Clean himself must have done it. They cleaned it right down to the shine and then they reglazed it.
Wayne
They did the same at Whitehall. I wish they'd also rehab the one at Times Sq.
Well, they DID have to replace the wooden roofs (which were rotting) and the wooden platform surfaces (which were also rotting). Concrete and aluminum are the next best things. At least some vestige of the past was retained. Not so at AL and Cleveland. Perhaps the ironwork there had rusted past redemption.
Sometimes they restore original tile surfaces to like-new condition. Case in point: the Union Square station on the "L" - here, they blasted away 75 years of grime, filth, munge &c and brought the tile band (which sits above the new white-and-green panels) back to vibrant life once again, as if it were new. Ditto for the Broadway Line, same station. You can even see the little "1828"s in the corner of the plaques. Sometimes they even go "retro" - i.e. Broad Street, Fulton Street (Grecian Revival), and now, 8th Avenue-14th Street. Whoever drew THAT one up did their homework for sure. They have apparently created this work in sections (just like the originals) and are mounting it on laths bolted to the wall. The last of the three BMT stations to wear IND tile has had it buried.
Wayne
I don't know what the story was with the ironwork at Alabama and Cleveland. I don't see any reason why they couldn't have replaced the rotting wood. The USS Constitution is still afloat. The BMT tile restoration is indeed impressive. With all the painstaking work that went into that, they could have restored Alabama-Crescent to what it was when it was new. They could have done the same with the Franklin Shuttle. If the TA cares enough to have a museum, dont they realize that stations from 1893 and 1906 are museums in themselves. I don't like what they did to Sutter and Livonia on the L either.
What did they do to Livonia and Sutter -- I'm afraid to ask.
At least I have a bunch of noce photos of them.
BTW, did they ruin the similar stations on the New Lots Line?
No more wrought iron railing. All that remains from the old stations is the old ironwork canopies. The roofs were replaced by the same corrugated steel that replaced the wrought iron platform railing.
Sutter Ave.
Livonia Ave.
Livonia Ave.
Gee, those pictures look ever-so-slightly familiar!
I have a few more nice Livonias which I took back in July, we actually were out there on the platform, having wandered over from the #3 Junius Avenue station, which have better views of the reconstructed platform roof and original roof supports. Yes, the original 1906 (in these cases) roof supports are still there. But I wonder if the old railings aren't buried behind all that windscreen. That's a job for forgotten-ny.com! Didn't think to look when I was out there.
Also have some front-end shots of the S-Curve north of Sutter, taken from the capacious RF Window of our good old sloped-end friend #4414.
At some point I will scan these and send 'em on down the line.
Wayne
Gee, those pictures look ever-so-slightly familiar!
If they look familiar, its because they are right here on nycsubway.org. They're not mine.
What I meant was - they look familiar because I took them last June 22nd during a Sunday-morning jaunt up and down the "L" train.
I will try and get the next batch to Dave within a week or two.
Thanks,
Wayne
Busha v'herpa (shame and outrage)!
They were such cute stations.
At least they left the original 1906 lights at the north end of Sutter Avenue, the ones that look like shepherd's crooks. Only the ones on the southbound side work. The replacement lights at Livonia are UGLY.
I guess untreated wood lasts but so long in the elements before it needs replacing.
Wayne
I remember the state of disrepair the Fulton St. stations were in prior to their replacement in the late 70's. Consider it a stroke of good fortune that the original ironwork was saved at Crescent and Norwood.
Wooden platforms are no longer an option. They are fire hazards, subject to vandalism and need more maintenance to keep them safe.
[ Wooden platforms are no longer an option. They are fire hazards, subject to vandalism and need more maintenance to keep them safe. ]
In Chicago, the CTA still uses wooden platforms. Many of the stations along the recently (1994-96) rebuilt Green line have wooden platforms.
-- Ed Sachs
Probably due to weight constraints. Concrete platforms weigh more. As far as vandalism goes, all you had to do was look at the wooden platform at Park Place before the line was rehabbed to see what i mean (holes chopped into it).
Dean St (Franklin Ave Shuttle) was that before the fire. It wouldn't take much to have one fall through the platform if you didn't watch where you were walking. Some of the R-30 fantrip pictures I took were from the already-closed portion of that platform (in 1993), and man, was that rickety!
--Mark
If they ever want to "reproduce" a BMT design, I hope it's the design of Montrose Ave. on the L, my favorite design in the whole system.
In restoring, they still should have built a connection to the IND and the IRT. I like the way it is now better! At least the stations try to look like original BMT stations as opposed to rotten crap.
My only complaint is that they used the same color scheme at ALL THREE stations - Razzberry Red, Corn Yellow, Bile Green, Dark Green and White. They could have come up with a variant at at least one of the stations. But it is a MINOR complaint. They did a great job with the Botanic Garden Station and the brick tunnel, among other visual delights.
BTW - the new Botanic Garden station is NORTH of the old one, which lay partially in the open cut, and partially in the tunnel. You can see where they removed the old platform from the south end of the existing station.
Wayne
In restoring, they still should have built a connection to the IND and the IRT. I like the way it is now better! At least the stations try to look like original BMT stations as opposed to rotten crap.
What looks like original BMT stations? Are you talking about Franklin Ave. or Alabama to Crescent on the J?
If you're talking about Franklin, I agree. It definately looks better than the dilapidated way it was, but I still think they should have restored that "rotten crap" (as you call it) to the way it was back at the beginning of the century. You wouldn't see them doing that to Independence Hall.
I agree. Primarily since having saved a portion of the original structure might have helped in aiding to get the Franklin Ave. Shuttle some kind of historic landmark status. In it's totally rebuilt state I am sure it is next to impossible to even consider this.
Of any of the NYCT lines, the Franklin Shuttle certainly could qualify for City Landmark status (and not just for the Malbone Wreck).
Doug aka BMTman
I was talking about Franklin. I agree that having restored some of the old stuff and making it shine would have been the best alternative, but what they have now is still better than what they had before.
I was talking about Franklin. I agree that having restored some of the old stuff and making it shine would have been the best alternative, but what they have now is still better than what they had before.
I agree. Ol' Frank was literally falling apart. Eventually, someone would have fallen through one of the rotten wooden platforms.
Kevin - they are putting up stained-glass in the three Viaduct Flushing Line Stations: 33rd Street (Rawson), 40th Street (Lowery) and 46th Street (Bliss). This work was going on as recently as November 8 (when we got G.O.d around a work train carrying glass-block and stained-glass panels), and it may still be going on.
This is a photo-op; each panel is different at each station.
Wayne
Since I never disembarked at these stations, what were Dean, Park Place and Botanic like before the renov? I assume Botanic Garden was the same, just with no tiles, no IRT connection and much darker (I remember the platforms. What was Park and Dean like?
Dean looked almost identical to the old Franklin Ave. station, with half the station closed off on either side. The closed sides had rotting wood platforms. Nobody ever used this station. I don't know why so many people got upset when it was closed.
Park Place was an island platform station, with an ancient wooden platform (you could actually make it move by jumping up and down on it). It had a very short canopy near the stairwell to the mezzanine (kinda like the stations on the Fulton St el on the J line)
Botanic Garden was an absolute disgrace. It extended north of the present station, with wooden platforms. The part underneath the overpass was always under-lit and probably was a mugger's paradise back in the bad-old days (late70's-early 80's).
Well, the original Franklin Shuttle had stations that were pretty much dilapidated to the point of being dangerous to the public (w/o taking into consideration the problem of muggings).
Today, the line south of Park Place is essentially the same (with the exception of the now totally enclosed and concreted Botanic Garden station). There are even remnants of the Consumer's Park Station (a pre-BMT siding before the Brooklyn Botanic Garden was built).
For those interested, the Consumer's Park building structure is best seen when riding in a southbound train. Look out the left side of the train as you leave Botanic Garden Station. You will see an old red-brick building that had been a former brewery with the ROW retaining wall recessing toward the back of the building. That is the remnant of the Consumer's Park Station (riding northbound dosen't give a good view of the site because of the tight clearances on the ROW. The best view is actually from the Montgomery Street overpass on the southside of the street).
For old BMT purists (like myself), the Franklin Shuttle will not be to their heart's content. But the rebuilding could have been WORSE in regards to the "look" of the line. I for one am pleased with the rebuilding even though in the final analysis I would have preferred if some portion of the original Fulton el structure would have been kept at the terminal station for historical reference. It would have added a nice touch.
Doug aka BMTman
For all the good, modern things that have happened to the Franklin Shuttle over the past, perhaps, they can restore some thru service on the line to Brighton Beach and Coney Island....just like in the "good old days."
Carl M.
For all the good, modern things that have happened to the Franklin Shuttle over the past, perhaps, they can restore some thru service on the line to Brighton Beach and Coney Island....just like in the "good old days."
I doubt that thru service will ever be restored. The fact that station lengths were shortened and the line was essentially single-tracked reveals that. To restore thru service, they would have to double-track the whole line and lengthen stations to handle 600-foot trains. The way things are at the present time, they could get away with running a single car similar to what's on the Norristown line in Phila. on the Franklin Shuttle.
Good point BMT LINES. There is no way to have trains run through to Coney Island with a two-car consists, unless the MTA were to institute some kind of Franklin Shuttle Specials. Theoretically, they could designate trains at certain times (on weekends) that would essentially be excursion specials. The trains would make all Franklin Shuttle stops, but after Prospect Park would go without making stops to Coney Island. It sounds like a really cool idea on paper, but I don't know if it would fly with management.
Doug aka BMTman
As I recall, the last through service to Franklin Ave. was the Saturday local runs from Brighton Beach in 1961-62. They used Triplexes with the number "7" on the front signs. After 1962, there was no Saturday express service on the Brighton line, and no through service (other than emergency diversions) to Franklin Ave.
The "Sunny Summer Sunday" express service from Franklin Ave. to Coney Island (and continuing via the Sea Beach Express tracks to Chambers St., AKA Franklin-Nassau) stopped running in the late 50s.
I also recall that the crossover north of Prospect Park on the Franklin line wasn't put in until about 1958. Before that, the Franklin shuttle trains had to cross over the Brighton line tracks south of Prospect Park to reverse.
-- Ed Sachs
I see no reason why two-car consists could not be used to provide all local service between Prospect Park and CI on the Brighton line during the six or eight hours every day when no greater capacity is required. Manhattan-bound passengers wishing to travel further than Prospect Park would have to switch to the express at Prospect Park. Or, during the same hours, just intersperse reasonably full two-car trains originating at Franlikn Avenue with the 90%-empty 8-car trains originating in Manhattan or the Bronx. The only real problem would be letting the passengers know where on the long platform to wait for the short train.
No matter what arrangements are made, some of the passengers have to change dat Prospect Park. I see no reason why it should always be those going to or from Franklin Avenue. Let those going to and from Manhattan take their turn, for a change.
Down with discrimination! End the MTA's anti-Franklin Avenue bias.
:-)
I see no reason why two-car consists could not be used to provide all local service between Prospect Park and CI on the Brighton line during the six or eight hours every day when no greater capacity is required. Manhattan-bound passengers wishing to travel further than Prospect Park would have to switch to the express at Prospect Park. Or, during the same hours, just intersperse reasonably full two-car trains originating at Franlikn Avenue with the 90%-empty 8-car trains originating in Manhattan or the Bronx. The only real problem would be letting the passengers know where on the long platform to wait for the short train.
No matter what arrangements are made, some of the passengers have to change dat Prospect Park. I see no reason why it should always be those going to or from Franklin Avenue. Let those going to and from Manhattan take their turn, for a change.
Down with discrimination! End the MTA's anti-Franklin Avenue bias.
:-)
Most people who take the Brighton Line want to go into Manhattan. Even those who live near the Franklin Ave. Line want to go into Manhattan. Providing Franklin Ave. to Brighton Beach or Coney Island service in this day and age is like having a meaningless train to nowhere. It would be like having all Queens IND local service on the G only, and any passengers along the local stops would have to change for the express to go into Manhattan. One thing to remember here, is that permanent thru service on Franklin-Brighton ended when the subway connection on the Brighton Line to Broadway opened in 1920. It was then, when the track connection from the Fulton St. El down Franklin Ave. was severed. The Brighton Local has been going into Manhattan via the subway since then.
Franklin thru service provided a way for folks living on the Fulton Street and connecting lines to easily reach Coney Island. When the free transfer was provided from the "A" line at Franklin, riders from Harlem, Washington Heights and the Bronx had a route to Coney Island better than other alternatives.
What really killed thru service was the extension of the D via Culver to Coney Island in 1954. Not long after, the Brighton Franklin lost its Sunday Express, which became a Coney Island local for a few years.
The last gasp of service, the Saturday through routing of Triplex locals, wasn't really a Franklin service, it was a short-routing of Brighton Locals to provide Saturday Express service for a little while longer.
Speaking of which, now that there is express service on the Fulton Street Line 18/7, isn't about time we restore Saturday or even (gasp) Sunday Q express service?
Weekend and later-evening "Q" service, like what they now have on the "A", would be a welcome addition. Now, if they could only figure out a way to route it through to Coney Island without upsetting the apple cart...
Wayne
Considering that the Brighton Line was rebuilt under the Dual Contracts as a four track line to Coney Island that shouldn't be too much of a problem. I understand that the Brighton Line trains could and did use the lower level at West 8 St un until some time in the 50's. The lower level tracks between West 8 St and Coney are still lettered "A" for Brighton. Anyone know when the arrangement on the lower level was changed ?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, first a corrective. Only the portions of the Brighton Line between Prospect Park and Church Ave. and Sheepshead Bay and Coney Island were rebuilt under the Dual Contracts. The bulk of the line was rebuilt under the Brooklyn Grade Crossing Elimination Commission in the "aughts."
I rode those lower level tracks into W.8 a handful of times. IIRC it was on a Brighton Local Saturday or Sunday, when Franklin-Nassau trains used the upper level. Probable last revenue use was c.1952. The tracks were severed by IND operation on the Culver in 1954.
Prior to the end of Brighton service on that lower level, where did Culver trains terminate? Neptune Ave.?
Culver trains also came into tracks E-F (current 5-6). There was a level crossing connecting to the two lines just east of W8 on the lower level, where you now see the steelwork.
[ Prior to the end of Brighton service on that lower level, where did Culver trains terminate? Neptune Ave.? ]
The pre-Oct-1954 Culver trains operated through to the Stillwell Ave. terminal in non-rush hours and also used the lower level. Due to shortages of steel subway cars, rush hour Culver subway trains ran express in Brooklyn and terminated at Kings Highway. Rush-hour local service was provided by wooden El cars running from 9th Ave. to Coney Island.
-- Ed Sachs
Local service was previously provided by full 5th Ave El service all the way to coney.
The Culver subway trains ran express in Brooklyn in the non-rush direction.
Oh. You mean that a direct train from Franlin Ave. to CI would be like the Airtrain.
Don't you just hate that fatal "sever the connection" attitude.
As soon as they get a new idea for changes - they implement it and then they SEVER THE CONNECTION.
...this way we don't ever have to go back on our bright idea...
Do they really need it? Passengers coming from the IND "A" can change for the "F" train and IRT passengers can change for any Coney Is train at Atlantic.
Even when there is a G.O. and D shuttle trains terminated at Prospect Park (replaced by Bus) they only turned 8 car R32's on the shuttle tracks because of the "famous" curve. The curve is still there.
>>>I would have preferred if some portion of the
original Fulton el structure would have been kept at the terminal station for historical reference. <<<
They tore down that el structure abta year before I conceived of Forgotten NY. The exquisitely bad Walsh luck and timing once again...
11/23/99
Kevin Walsh,
About that structure at Fulton and Franklin. I have word from a good source that the structure was "considered" for preservation. But a closer look at the pillars disclosed to much rot. The structure had to go unfortunatly.
Bill Newkirk
Any subtalkers have a photo of the old el structure in its latter years before demolition?
www.forgotten-ny.com
11/24/99
Kevin Walsh,
I do,but unfortunatly I don't have a slide scanner. I have been putting it off because of their cost. Looking for one that's affordable and when that day comes I'll have those Fulton/Franklin structure slides you asked for and more. Hang in there!
Bill Newkirk
What's wrong with the HP Photoscanner S-20 at $399 or the old model at closeout for at leat $100 less?
Recommended to be used with Vuesmart software, thoughn not HPs.
I think I have some video of the old structure at platform level. I have to get my Snappy hooked up to my computer (hopefully next week) and then I can pass along that image ....
--Mark
How were the exits set up at Dean and Park? and at Botanic? That's what I really want to know as I've seen the platforms from a passing train quite a few times (Didn't I already say that?).
I don't recall the arrangements at Dean. At Park Place the only access was to Park Place. At Botanic Gardens there were exits to Eastern Parkway and at President Street.
11/22/99
I read somewhat recently in an article about current Latino sensation Jennifer Lopez,that the title of her current CD ,"ON THE 6" ,referred to her commuting to work on the #6 Pelham Line. A little info for all you IRT guys in Redbirdland !
Bill Newkirk
[I read somewhat recently in an article about current Latino sensation Jennifer Lopez,that the title of her current CD ,"ON THE 6" ,referred to her commuting to work on the #6 Pelham Line.]
And I'll bet that Ms. Lopez travels exclusively by limousine these days.
11/23/99
[And I'll bet that Ms.Lopez travels exclusively by limousine these days]
That's too bad. I guess celebs don't know what they're missing holding that cute adorable METROCARD in their hand!
Bill Newkirk
Speaking of the #6 ...
http://www.a-v-e-n-u-e.com
Hey everyone,
Just wanted to let you all know about a video I just picked up at a local show down here in Florida. The title is The Best of Brooklyn Trolleys 1939-1956. about half B&W the other color. I was a little leery at first since I hadn't heard about it but once i found out whose movies they were I bought it. The movies were taken by Sid Silleck Jr. I had seen some of his movies in Mark 1 video's Connecticut Company tape so I gave it a shot. Man was it a good thing. Starts with B&W taken from the rear of a streetcar passing through Sands Street I believe, One nice shot of a 1000 series el car
car train from rear of same car. The only negative thing I can say about the tape was the scenes of streetcars being burned. All in all I highly recommend this tape. I picked mine up from Arnold B. Joseph at the show, I can post his address if there is any one who needs it.
Cheers
Steve L
I was surprised the other day when I looked closely at the telephone at Sheepshead Bay Station that is right near the benches when you go through the turnstiles. It has a whole instruction plate, and it has a drawer at the bottom that apparently opens out with a typewriter. I've never seen one of these before. Are they new to the system or is that another example of my dimming powers of perception?
They've been poppiong up lately ADA and such you know. Probbly be obsolete in 10 years away, as cellular systems take yet another job over...
Friday evening was spent in Manhattan at a NY Div. ERA meeting.
This month Ray Berger had a 3 1/2 hour slide show ... Electric Trains A to Z (Alaska to Zuric), 40 Years. Was packed with photos from many many cities all around the World & included some comments about each transit system. While it was very interesting, it did run on a little too long, but in retrospec I'm glad I stayed to the end.
Also got the chance to chat with several SubTalkers and did a little subway riding. Caught a C R-32 downtown & N Hippo R-68 Uptown. A little treat just before the N arrived was a work train, two flats in front of the diesel. Lots of kids on my LIRR final leg, looked like MSG let out just before my train as Penn Station was filled 11 PM just like it was rush hour. Most of the kids paid in cash, I had my Off-peek round trip & therefore saved the on-board penality.
Mr t__:^)
Hope you made it to the ERA Inspection trip Saturday; we visited the new light rail line in NJ, including the rebuilding Newark city subway line. The PCC's will soon be a memory.
Joe C.
Just got back from Newport Mall, the tracks have almost met the mall >G< and the overpass over the approach to the Holland Tunnel is almost done.
Yes, Thurston got his feet wet with ERA Friday night -- now he'll never be the same again ;-)
I've gone to three meetings so far this year, primarily for the vendor's exhibition before the slide shows. I've found some fairly hard-to-come-by items that I might have otherwise had to bid for on ebay.
I must agree with Thurston's assessment of the slide show presentation: very good shots overall, but I thought Berger could have sped things up abit considering the amount of slides he had to go through. His show was spanning the globe in regards to rapid transit, so I guess there was no other way to do a thorough show without going into 3 hours of slides (in the future, I'd suggest that they have an intermission for those who have to relieve their bladders may do so -- or otherwise go for coffee without missing anything).
Doug aka BMTman
I recently found a drawing which I am told represents a proposed elevated monorail system in New York city. The drawing has no identifying text or date, but considering the car's steam boiler and the Victorian styling of the column brackets, I'm guessing that it's late nineteenth century. The track, supported by a truss, bisects the car at the level of the seat backs.
Can anyone tell me the possible originator of this design?
That would probably be the Pelham Bay Monorail which ran for a short while around the start of the century. I don't have the exact dates in front of me at this time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[I recently found a drawing which I am told represents a proposed elevated monorail system in New York city. The drawing has no identifying text or date, but considering the car's steam boiler and the Victorian styling of the column brackets, I'm guessing that it's late nineteenth century. The track, supported by a truss, bisects the car at the level of the seat backs. Can anyone tell me the possible originator of this design?]
The only actual monorail ever used in NYC was an experimental one in Pelham Bay Park in the Bronx. It was built sometime in the early 20th Century but never went into revenue service.
One other experimental train that sort of resembled a monorail was the Boynton Bicycle Railroad of 1887. It used two rails, but they were mounted above and below the cars - which were only a few feet wide. A prototype was built and tested on a short track in Brooklyn, but Boynton was unable to get sufficient financial backing and the project was dropped. IIRC, there are no surviving photographs of the prototype train.
"The only actual monorail ever used in NYC was an experimental one in Pelham Bay Park in the Bronx. It was built sometime in the early 20th Century but never went into revenue service."
NOT TRUE! What about the Wild Asia monorail in the Bronx Zoo?
NOT TRUE! What about the Wild Asia monorail in the Bronx Zoo?
There was also a monorail at rhe 1964-65 World's Fair.
Last week my regular AM LIRR train was delayed because the doors in the 3rd pair (of a 12 car train) failed to open and customers had to be keyed on or off. On NYCT equipment this can not happen because each car has its own Door Unlock Relay and Door Open Relay (DRU & DRO). Therefore, it would take 2 failures (one in each car) to prevent a middle pair from opening on NYCT equipment. My question:
Since this happened on a middle pair, the logical assumption is that each pair on the LIRR use one common set of relays. Is this, in fact, the case? If anyone has an M-1 or M-3 drawing I'd be very appreciative.
Just another observation from the New Franklin Shuttle: I asked the station booth clerk for a new schedule. It is dated "Fall 1999" obviously for the reopening of the line. However, on a casual glance of the brochure I came across a GLARING omission. They list all the connections that the Shuttle makes EXCEPT the new IRT transfer point at BOTANIC GARDEN!!! What idiots!! That's one of the highlights of the rebuild project.
Somebody's head should be rolling downhill at 370 Jay for this screw-up that even Moe, Larry and Curly couldn't have created!
Doug aka BMTman
Doug--- There's only one possible conclusion which follows with geometric logic: There is no connection with the IRT. It's all in your imagination.
And don't malign the Three Stooges good name by associating them with the MTA.
After all, Moses Hurwitz (Moe), Lawrence Fine (Larry), and Samuel Hurwitz (Shemp) and Jerome Hurwitz (Curly), were doctors.."Calling Doctor Moe, Calling Dr. Larry, Calling Doctor Curly".
Gee. All these years, I thought the name was Howard. I guess it was a stage name.
Yes it was..The last two stooges Joe Besser and Curley Joe (De Rita) seem to have used their own names.....After Curley Joe retired there was talk that Emil Sufka (one of the stage hands) would be the replacement and Stooge # 7. Unfortunately Moe and Larry died (within months of each other) and the roster stayed forever at 6 - There was a Biography program about the stooges which is repeated every so often....Some of the Biography shows are on video ( I've seen them at Barnes & Noble ). If you see the show or the video, it goes into deeper detail.
I seem to recall, and correct me if I'm wrong that Larry suffered a stroke about 1970, and lived for several years afterwards but was unable to work again. Moe made a few appearances ( I remeber him sitting in on the 3 Stooges Show on Channel 11) but he appeared to be in failing health.
The legacy of the Boys lived on in something called "The Bionic Stooges" which was a lame Saturday morning cartoon series of the late '70s using characters based on the liknesses of Moe, Larry and Curly.
Doug aka BMTman
Joe Besser was my mother's uncle. She would tell me stories about what a nice guy he was, and how talented he was (he was a big vaudville star, and not just for his comedic ability). I could also go into how the movie studio that produced the Three Stooges screwed him out of a ton of $$$$$, but that would probably veer too far off topic.
He also played Stinky on Abbott & Costello.
<< After Curley Joe retired there was talk that Emil Sufka (one of the stage hands) would be the replacement and Stooge # 7. >>
His name was Emile Sitka, not Sufka, and he was a character actor (not a stage hand) who appeared in numerous Stooge stories.
I thought their names were Horowitz. Larry's real last name was Finestein.
I believe that you may be right about Larry Finestine, but I'm pretty sure about the Hurwitz part. I suppose we'll have to go to the library or watch for the Stooges biography on "Biography" on A&E network to be sure....
I thought Moe and Curly's last name was Horowitz.
But I could be wrong -- after all I'm just a victim of soicumstance.....nyuk, nyuk, nyuk!
As Regis says ---- Final answer --- According to Biography.com the last names were Horwitz (not Hurwitz or Horowitz) and Feinberg. Go to sight and punch in "Three Stooges" and see a short bio of the group.
Yeah that's right, it was Feinberg. I musta been drinking.
[I musta been drinking.]
Was it "Three Little Beers" or "Pardon My Scotch"? :-)
ROTHFLOL
<< I believe that you may be right about Larry Finestine, but I'm pretty sure about the Hurwitz part. >>
According to the book, "Moe Howard & The Three STooges," written by Moe (Moses) Howard, his last name was Horwitz, not Hurwitz. Larry's last name was Feinberg, not Finestine.
Sorry to ruin things, but let's please get this thread back on track (sorry for the pun there).
Enough 3 Stooges references already!
Doug aka BMTman
Why, soitainly!
Sorry, I couldn't resist. And if we're getting back on track, it might as well be (one of) the Brighton Express track(s).
>>>After all, Moses Hurwitz (Moe), Lawrence Fine (Larry), and Samuel Hurwitz (Shemp) and Jerome
Hurwitz (Curly), were doctors.."Calling Doctor Moe, Calling Dr. Larry, Calling Doctor Curly". <<<
Actually, I'm being picky here but it was 'Calling Dr. Howard, Dr, Fine, Dr. Howard...'
11/23/99
Hey c'mon fellas , we're going off topic again!
NYUK NYUK NYUK.....WOO WOO WOO WOO
Bill Newkoik
One word: oops!
Of course, Moe would be using his trademark names such as cricketheads, lamebrains, meatheads, birdbrains, etc.
I'm doing some research on energy savings in public transit. Does anyone have any idea what sorts of things are being looked at (if any) in regards to energy savings in the subway system? Or is anyone aware of intiatives which tried and failed for some reason or another?
Thanks for any info.
Matt Blumberg
blumberg@bigfoot.com
I know the new trains are going to AC power from DC, and going to regenerative braking. That should cut power use substantially. You should contact the MTA directly on that one.
I'm doing some research on energy savings in public transit. Does anyone have any idea what sorts of things are being looked at (if any) in regards to energy savings in the subway system? Or is anyone aware of intiatives which tried and failed for some reason or another?
You might want to start with the NTST: www.ntdprogram.com/NTD/NTST.nsf/NTST/1997/$File/Ntst97.pdf
Also check the American Public Transit Assn. web page at APTA.com
Any true Bronx pros out there?...
I have a couple of questions regarding the Third Ave El in the Bronx during it's glory days back in the early to mid 1950's. (It's something I've wondered about for a long time...) If there's anyone out there who WAS familiar with the old Bronx route during this era, I'd really appreciate hearing from you so I can proceed with my questions...
Many thanks!
Joe H.
ja3@att.net
Joe H: What are the questions?
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode the Northern end in 1968.
Am I demented or what? Even if I am, please say I'm not!
Someone has questions about the 3rd Ave el. WHERE ARE THE QUESTIONS.
Then another post says "I rode the Northern end in 1968". What gives??
Joe C.
I thought the era of rail transit poster art was long past, but check out the Dallas Area Rapid Transit site with graphics promoting their light rail expansion program.
We don't get nice poster art in NYC. We don't get light rail either. Oh-for-two.
Speaking of light rail, what, exactly, is the status of the light rail line proposed for 42nd Street? Is this project on any burner, front, back, or otherwise? New York's light rail would be distinguished if it revived conduit power delivery.
The light rail project has a few fired up supporters, and many detractors. The political solution that leads to the most votes is "more study."
Personally, I don't like the idea. Without grade separation, light rail would just get stuck in Midtown traffic, which the loss of the lanes would make worse.
I have a better, but much more expensive idea. Extend the #7 west. And extend the shuttle east along 43rd St, adding platforms at 6th Avenue (for transfer), Lexington Ave, etc. on every block. Run it as an automated peoplemover, with cars with no seats. I've checked it out, and the shuttle is one level up from the Lex, so it could be run through at the cost of reconfiguring the pedestrain passageways in the area.
Here we go again. How far West? Maybe to a hook up with the HBLR? But then you'ld need to equip HBLR cars with 3rd rail shoes. While you're at it, why not drop the grade of the line from 3rd Ave. to the West so that the tracks can be level at 1st Ave., thus facilitating the construction of a UN station?
A nice dream.
[The light rail project has a few fired up supporters, and many detractors. The political solution that leads to the most votes is "more study."
Personally, I don't like the idea. Without grade separation, light rail would just get stuck in Midtown traffic, which the loss of the lanes would make worse.
I have a better, but much more expensive idea. Extend the #7 west. And extend the shuttle east along 43rd St, adding platforms at 6th Avenue (for transfer), Lexington Ave, etc. on every block. Run it as an automated peoplemover, with cars with no seats. I've checked it out, and the shuttle is one level up from the Lex, so it could be run through at the cost of reconfiguring the pedestrain passageways in the area.]
About a billion dollars to extend the 7 to Javits, according to the City's estimate, though it's only 2 blocks to the West Side tunnel.
The shuttle isn't up one level from the Lex; it runs right into it, making it rather difficult to get around.
My pet shuttle idea (doesn't everybody have one?)--split it into two, one pair of tracks moving constantly cycling automated trains from the original station location by the Lex (to avoid that long walk) to the existing Times Square location, the other pair with a short train or beltway that runs between TS and Sixth Avenue and another that runs between the existing shuttle location (or as far East from that as space allows) and Sixth. Add a Second Avenue stop to the #7, but put it on a bypass for local service. Replace the Fifth Avenue stop with a bypassed Sixth Avenue stop, also for the locals. At 8th Avenue, out in another stop on a local bypass, this one for PABT. Dig a two block tunnel from 8th to the West Side line tunnel at 10th. Bifurcate at 10th with a short surface extension to the Ferry terminal. Expresses proceed through the yard to a stop at Penn Station and then expresses go into PATH. Locals proceed to a terminal in the yard next to Javits. On the East Side side, go through the tunnel, then turn onto a new East Side line and head down to Lower Manhattan and Brooklyn.
So:
Shuttle 1: TS to GCT
Shuttle 2: TS to 6th Avenue
Shuttle 3: 6th Avenue to GCT
Crosstown Express--Atlantic Avenue terminal--Lower Manhattan East Side terminal--GCT--Penn--PATH to NJ
#7 Local/Express--Queens, 2nd Avenue, GCT, 6th Avenue, 7th Avenue, PABT, then to Javits terminal or 10th Avenue plus West Ferry
Or something like that.
Next to the conductor's indicator board on the Manhattan-bound local track at Queens Plaza is an obviously old (and possibly original) sign in the old IND black on white style saying "R1-9 trains mom. switch OFF". Anyone know what this means? I know it's referring to the old R1-9 cars, but not what it means. And why is it still there 22 years after those cars were scrapped for good?
Next to the conductor's indicator board on the Manhattan-bound local track at Queens Plaza is an obviously old (and possibly original) sign in the old IND black on white style saying "R1-9 trains mom. switch OFF". Anyone know what this means? I know it's referring to the old R1-9 cars, but not what it means. And why is it still there 22 years after those cars were scrapped for good?
Sounds like something for forgotten-ny.com
This sign is not a surviving relic of the past. It is rather the first of many signs for the reappearance of the R1/9's on 1-1-2000 and the disappearance of all of the recent and some to be delivered new equipment made by Mattel Industries.
They have another at Whitehall BMT.
The R-1/9 signs are there to throw the Chinese spies off. It is hoped that they will spend so much time trying to decipher it that they won't have time to mess with our nuclear stuff.
>>>Sounds like something for forgotten-ny.com<<<
The phrase is,
"This sounds like a job for
www.forgotten-ny.com"
© 1999 Midnight Fish
11/23/99
Don't tell the TA , they probably don't know the R1-9's were retired!
Bill Newkirk
I saw the same sign and asked the same question when I came out as a conductor in 1987. Fortunately, quite a few "old-timers" were still around back then to answer it for me. It had to do with the momentary switch for the heaters, located inside the cab. At various points along a given IND line, these signs either said 'momentary switch on' or 'momentary switch off', in order to regulate the heat inside the train. Otherwise, it would get like an oven in the cars.
Well that makes sense. But I wonder why they still exist. The TA is very dilligent about removng obsolete signs. I remember for years on the Manhattan-bound platform on B'way-East NY there was a similar original IND type black on white sign saying "Change at Hoyt St. for trains to Church Avenue and Queens". That disappeared around 1989. A sign saying the same thing at Rockaway Ave. lasted even longer.
Believe it or not, at Kings Highway (N line - northbound side) and 30th/Grand Ave. in Astoria (also on the northbound side) there are still conductor indication boards intact that pertained to the AB type equipment. Every so often I come across some oddball stuff like this - I'll start paying closer attention as to locations and such.
Board of Transportation, City of New York, New York City
Transit System, IND Division, Information and Instructions
for the Guidance of Conductors, Motormen, Motormen-Conductors
and Trainmen Engaged in Train and Yard Operation
May 1st, 1941
#48. Q: What should be done to prevent the relays on the
main light and the heater and fan circuits from burning
after adding cars?
A: To prevent the burning of the relays on the main light
and the heater and fan circuits on cars, motorman will
immediately after making a coupling of cars, key the
MOMENTARY CONTACT MAIN LIGHT SWITCH to "OFF"
and move the heater control switch on the motorman's
cab switch panel in the car from which the coupling is made,
to the "OFF" position. If the heat, fan and ventilation board
indicates "Heat On", the heater and fan control switch
on the motorman's cab switch panel will then be moved
to the "ON" position. The main lights may also be keyed
"ON" if car lighting is required.. If the main lights have
been keyed "ON" the motorman should notice whether or
not all cars are lighted. If a portion of the train fails
to respond to the operation of the switch it will be an
indication of trouble at the coupling at the point beyond
which the car main lights fail to respond to the action of the momentary contact key switch.
FYI: The momentary contact key switch (on the R1-9's) was located
in a long box neatly tucked below the front designation/destination
sign boxes at the ends of the car just outside of the storm door.
The conductor's "communication buzzer button" could be found
next to it. At terminals (or whenever C/R needed to communicate
with M/M), C/R (while perched on the steps between the cars) would
have to reach around behind to the button box to pass the signal
and still remain on the steps between the cars for the required
minimum train movement of three car lengths (to observe platform)
before dismounting.
the "OFF" position. If the heat, fan and ventilation board
indicates "Heat On", the heater and fan control switch
on the motorman's cab switch panel will then be moved
But note that the HF&V board is not the same as the conductor's
board. The former was located at terminal stations, usually
near the tower or dispatcher's office, and indicated, based on
the expected weather conditions, whether trains leaving the terminal
should have their fans on or off, and how many "points" of heat
should be applied, if any, this being regulated by going into the
cab (#2 I think) of each car and turning on the indicated number
of heat switches. The R1-9s had three independent banks of heaters.
I remember signs at the Jamaica El staircases from the street back in the 60's/70's that still said Brooklyn Manhattan Transit Corp. They definitely said that at the Sutphin Station when I got off the LIRR.
I remember those to. They lasted into the mid 1980's.
[I remember signs at the Jamaica El staircases from the street back in the 60's/70's that still said Brooklyn Manhattan Transit Corp. They definitely said that at the Sutphin Station when I got off the LIRR]
There still are signs at the 4/5/6 platforms Grand Central warning against entering or crossing the tracks - per order of the "Board of Transportation." I suppose they haven't been removed because they're still correct, at least in terms of the message being conveyed.
There are still signs at 51 Street and Flatbush Avenue (two stations, not an intersection). They say, the same thing, but per order of "Interborough Rapid Transit Company."
There's one like that (sign from I.R.T. Co. to keep off the tracks) at the Hoyt St. station in Brooklyn too - or at least there was in 1997.
There are probably others.
Brighton Beach (D/Q) had this prominently displayed at all its station entrances well into the 1970s. I always wondered what that "municipal operation" jazz was :)
--Mark
Is it still planned or is it all talk?
It's all talk till someone steps up to the plate and plans it. How about you?
-Dave
11/23/99
I'd like to go,but it seems we're all a victim of the upcoming holiday season.
Unless we squeeze it between Thanksgiving and Christmas/Hanukah.
Bill Newkirk
How about the 19th of December? Right before the holidays? I believe it is a Sunday.
11/24/99
David,
I'll mark that day on my (subway) calendar. Hopefully barring any unforseen snowstorms or strikes I should be there. Now,anybody else interested,make that date on you calendar and let's remind ourselves before hand. I don't venture into this territory often and I'm pretty sure most of us don't. Let's get a big outcome on this!
Bill Newkirk
If someone can write a blurb on this I'll put it in the Events list.
-Dave
How's this for a blurb?
Subtalk fantrip to the remains of the Polo Grounds shuttle, the last remnant of the 9th avenue el, closed in 1953.
I think you're missing things like meeting location and time.
-dave
And the fact that it was closed in 1958.
I won't commit myself definitely to this excursion, but it's under consideration since I live nearby. Perhaps we can get together. It would be a great opportunity to meet SubTalkers that I couldn't meet at Branford during their Autumn in NY Event.
What can we agree on? Time: Sunday, December 19th at 10AM? Where? Let's start with 167th St Station on the 4 since the Highbridge Shuttle started and ended here. We can follow along the abandoned tower and trackway of the 9th Av El, to 162nd St and make our way over to Jerome Av and see what else we can find. We can probably end our excursion on the 155th St Bridge since abandoned stairwells formerly used for the el are here. I better get Brennan's guide out to abandoned and disused stations.
Just maybe I'll see you there.... Anyone else want to tag along?
-Stef
We can follow along the abandoned tower and trackway of the 9th Av El, to 162nd St and make our way over to Jerome Av and see what else we can find.
I did this 25 years ago with 5 other people. Steve Zabel was our tour guide. We went up on the abandoned Jerome-Anderson platform. We also went to the abandoned Sedgewick Ave. platforms and tunnel. The tunnel entrance was sealed off, however. I stood on the platforms of both stations. If you go to Sedgewick Ave. around 162nd St., and go down below the Deegan Expwy., you will find 2 concrete platforms. They lead into the tunnel under the Deegan, which like I said is sealed shut (steel), unless vandals ripped it open. If its all gone, what can I say. I saw what I saw back in Aug., 1974. Below are some pictures from nycsubway.org:
Jerome-Anderson1
Beyond the black fence is the station platform.
Jerome-Anderson2
Beyond the black fence, the island platform was in the middle and the trains ran on both sides.
I have some slides of the Polo Grounds Shuttle, a few in service, the rest were taken in 1974. I'm thinking of scanning them and putting them on a web site, especially with the current interest regarding the ruins of the shuttle expressed on SubTalk.
Thanks for that info!!!!
-Stef
I wish I could make this trip. I live not all that far away. I'll be at the White Plains Toy & Train show that day.
As teenagers in the mid-60's we'd go to those very locations; the tunnel was accessible then. Not too many kids knew what it was all about, but it was definitely "cool" to go there.
I knew about it, of course, and it meant a lot to be there. A that time there were remnants of old station signs, worker lanterns and lots more stuff.
Other kids in the area had similar ideas about hanging out there. Was not all too dangerous at that time. However, on one trip there, a guy was walking around with a bow-and-arrow, in the tunnel. I asked what he was doing. He said he was hunting. I never asked what he was hunting; it was my last trip there!
Good luck, be safe.
Joe C
Looks like he was hunting for rats.
Could we make that 11 AM?
Alright, let's try for 11AM. There should be a general consensus as to who's participating.
Cheers,
Stef
I'm afraid I'll have to offer my regrets - would love to participate but I'll still be on the road with my younger daughter, returning from the "law school survey" road trip.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll definitely do my best to be there on Sunday, December 19 at 11AM. I'll even bring my camera.
Good idea. We'll need somebody to take pictures....
-Stef
Okay, this event is now listed in the Upcoming Events calendar. Any changes please let me know.
-Dave
Many thanks, Dave. It would be most appreciated if you could join us.
-Stef
Not a chance. I'm "weekend zone" s.a. at work that weekend. I'll be working about 24 hours those two days.
-Dave
There's a reasonable chance that I will be able to attend.
--Mark
11/27/99
I'm interested. Where will we meet at 167th St. On the "el" platform or on the street? If there is any train meets or other diversions on that day , please post it here so we know.
Bill Newkirk
I posted in the events that a good meeting place would be on the northbound platform at 167th St. since most people will probably be riding the 4 up from Manhattan. If someone thinks another location would be better please post and I'll correct the events calendar.
Sounds good to me! I'll do my best to be there. Let's hope for dry, reasonably warm (30+) weather.
Looking forward to trip in the tunnel to uncover the unknown of the Shuttle. NEAT, NEAT, NEAT!!! I will be looking for all the signals and train stops.
Can we actually get into the tunnel? I know somebody must have an old key, but I thought it was unaccessible.
Looking forward to trip in the tunnel to uncover the unknown of the Shuttle. NEAT, NEAT, NEAT!!! I will be looking for all the signals and train stops.
I doubt that you'll find any of that. I wasn't in the tunnel, but I was on the platforms of both stations. If you didn't know that trains once ran through there, you would never come to that conclusion from what you see (or should I say - the absence of what you see). The tracks are long gone, along with any station fittings. All you have is bare concrete. When I was there in 1974, the tunnel entrance was tinned over at Sedgewick. I couldn't see any access at Jerome-Anderson, either.
Someone has control over the tunnel. Maybe an add in the newspaper would find the individual or company that owns the tunnel to get access. Call the City of New York.
Many railfans apparently identify rail by its weight. Some railfans can look at a piece of rail and say "That's 130 lb rail". The 130 lb comes from what a three foot section of the rail would actually weigh if I understand it correctly. Smaller railroads and branch lines might possibly use 100 lb rail, and heavily used main lines could possibly use 150 lb rail. There are apparently many different weight rails.
Can some of the you technical people out there possibly answer...
1. What weight rail is used in the NY subway System?
2. Are yard and layup tracks a lighter weight rail, or is there one standard weight rail used everywhere in the system?
The side of the rail is imprinted with the weight of the rail, intitials of the mill and the year it was rolled. Have a look at the track when you are waiting for a train, it should be visable. Also each weight has it own dimesions so it is possible to tell the difference by looking if you look at enough rail or by measuring with a spec book as a reference guide. (Don't try to measure the third rail though BZZZZ)
Most modern commuter and transit systems use 115 # rail. Thats what the CTA and METRA runs. I do not know what the subway in NY is built from but I assume that is what it is. Someone here is sure to know what it is as an absolute fact.
FYI. on the LIRR I used to see 135Lb rail often, and at NJT I saw 155Lb rail on the NEC. High speed, heavy trains: heavy steel. All of it CWR BTW.
in some circles these days 115 is considered light The weights you observed are commom for main lines. Are some highspeed main lines even heavier?
155 is the biggest I know of, on the NEC.
Wasn't that the weight that the old PRR used to use on that line?
in some circles these days 115 is considered light The weights you observed are commom for main lines. Are some highspeed main lines even heavier?
The standard weight for TGV track is 60kg per metre, or about 120lbs per yard. Note that the TGV uses UIC-section rail (rather than the US standard) so the weights are not directly comparable.
CH.
155 PS (Pennsylvania Special) is the heaviest rail ever rolled.,It was made for the Pennsylvania RR exclusively Interestingly enough, this rail was used when Conrail rehabbed the two-train-a-week Auburn Road Secondary with state money (Rail is sold by weight,so CR got top dollar for the rehab). This track is now part of the Finger Lakes Railway.
Maybe I can help out here. On most sections of the New York City Subway they use 100# ARA-B rails, but on some areas (mostly open-cut) of the Brighton and Sea Beach lines they utilize 115# RE rails. For third rails they mostly use (always on the BMT and IND, but also now on the IRT) 150# NMC third rails (named after BRT subsidiary the New York Municipal Railway Corporation). When the IRT opened its subway for business in 1904 they used 75# third rails (I do not know which type, unfortunately). The connection between Grand Central and Vernon-Jackson Avenues of the Flushing line use a 150# “umbrella” rail (again, I do not know the exact nomenclature or classification herein), and the Broadway-7th Avenue line used another type of 150# third rail which, from the classification imprinted on the rail itself at the New York Transit Museum, said “LACKAWANNA 1503 10 1917”, however, as the old Lackawanna Railroad, from what I’ve been told, did not use third-rail type of electrification, I have to assume that Lackawanna in this case was the name of the steel company that produced that particular rail. (1917 was the year such rail was made, apparently.) This would definitely be an interesting sidelight on this website.
The standard rail type for the subway is 100RB, which means
100 pounds per yard, ARAB section. It dates to the first
decade of this century...there were two recommended rail shapes
by the American Railroad Assocation, A and B. The IRT used
90 pound in 1904, but all of that stuff is gone. Recently the
TA has been using a heavier rail outside of the subway, I think
115RE.
Jeff, Is it possible that the old Lexington Ave el used an even lighter rail? I seem to remember adapter plates on the Lex right after the exit off Broadway and the rail looking much smaller. I know that the third rail was much narrower but I am talking about the running rail. It's a long time ago, I was only a teenager, and perhaps my memory is playing tricks on me, but I sure thought it must have been a very light weight rail.
How heavy a rail do you use at Branford?
It is quite likely that the older elevated lines used an
80 pound ASCE (American Society of Civil Engineers....predated
the American Railroad Association) section or even 70 pound.
At Branford....ha! What rail section DON'T we use?!
Let's see....I've come across several different types of
girder rail (used in the barns only), 60, 70, 78, 80, 100
and 107 pound rail. Most of the mainline is 80 which was
the Connecticut Company standard for trolley lines.
It is quite likely that the older elevated lines used an
80 pound ASCE (American Society of Civil Engineers....predated
the American Railroad Association) section or even 70 pound.
That makes sense. The lighter wooden el cars didn't need the heavy track that the steel subway cars needed.
I'm glad that most of the main line is 80 lb rail. I'm sure that it would really add to the problem if you had to replace a odd weight piece of rail and had everything but the weight that you were replacing.
IIRC, a standard length of rail was something like 39 feet. Did that same standard apply to all of the different weight rails?
A little off the subject, I think you are doing a great job with the "Tripper". I look forward to its arrival each month. As a proofreader for a hobby publication, I am aware of the amount of time that you must be putting into it, and appreciate your efforts.
Thanks Karl...you'll get to read all about track this month
as we cover the tie changeout that some fellow SubTalkers
participated in.
39' is the current standard length, but at one time 30 or 33
was common. We very, very rarely have to replace rail. We
are running light single cars or perhaps the occasional two-car
subway train. The rail will rust away before it becomes load-worn.
33 foot sections result when rail is cropped i.e. the worn ends are cut back 3 feet on each end resulting in a 39 foot section becoming 33 feet long
I don't know much about the subways, but rail weight falls into several groups. At the high end you have the 152 RB PRR mainline rail (not 155). After that most mainlines used 130 RB rail. Secondary tracks mostly use c.100 RB (usually 103) and yard tracks use 85-90. Most subway tracks I have seen look to me to be about 100. Nowadays there are some new standards emerging. 140 RB is the rail weight of choice for most freight and passenger main lines. Most of the PRR 152 stuff has been replaced with 140 and much of what used to be 130 has been upgraded to 140. The Amtrak Harrisburg line just outside of Philly has 4 tracks. 3 are 140 RB welded rail and 1 is 152 RB jointed rail. The 152 rail dwarfs even the new 140 stuff. The old rail is then cycled down to secondary tracks that still use the old weights. I have noticed that no matter how little use a rail line sees today, it will retain its origional rail wieght. So some secondaries have 130 (or even 152) while others have 100. I have also noticed that rail hardware is rarely thrown away. The rails on a line near me were made by Beth Steel in 1911 and I have seen tie plates on a S. Jersey line marked DL&W 1918. Does anyone know who made most of the NYC Sybway rail and how much of it is origional?
152 RB PRR mainline rail (not 155).
152RB or 152RE? There *was* a famous 155PS section which
was rolled for Pennsy. It was the heaviest rail made.
Does anyone know who made most of the NYC Sybway rail
and how much of it is origional?
Who made it originally? Don't know. There isn't much original
running rail left in the system....maybe some out of the way
places like track 2 on the 42 st shuttle line? On tracks that
see regular pax service, rail are renewed every 15-20 years.
Bethlehem rolls most of the rail for the TA today.
Here's the list, kids. E-mail me with your address and a small honorarium for postage, etc. and the maps are yours. First come, first serve.
1972 (w/ KK)
1974 (w/ K)
February 1978
Spring 1985 (J terminates at 121 St)
Fall 1985 (w/ Brighton Line Diversion)
May 24, 1987 (includes N and R service change)
1988 (Incl. Archer Ave.)
1989 (w/ JFK going to 21st St)
Spring 1990 (Manh. br. suspended)
Sept. 30, 1990 (restores Manh. Br and Bway Express, etc.)
March 1992
October 1992
1992 (multilingual map)
January 1994 (multilingual map)
June 1994
August 1994
Brochures-Rapid Transit Service Changes (F, QJ, D, QB, etc.)
-Service Changes-Sept. 30, 1990
-System-wide changes in Subway Service 12/11/1988
- (no date) SIRT timetable
THANK G-D!!!!
SUBTALK IS BACK!!!!!!!
I was beginning to suffer withdrawal pains!
I did a quick round-trip from BOS to NYC today ... and while I didn't ride a lot of lines (just E to/from LGA), a few times during the day I said to myself, "Gee, I wonder what's on SubTalk today? It will probably take me hours to read all of the posts when I get home!"
By the way, the Q-33 from LGA to Roosevelt Ave. is about as bad as ever. (No criticism of Triboro Coach; the traffic is horrible with box-blockers and double-parkers everywhere. What used to be a 20 minute trip (even during rush hour) is now often 35-40 minutes.)
Bring on the exteNsion!
[By the way, the Q-33 from LGA to Roosevelt Ave. is about as bad as ever. (No criticism of Triboro Coach; the traffic is horrible with box-blockers and double-parkers everywhere. What used to be a 20 minute trip (even during rush hour) is now often 35-40 minutes.)]
Not that the M60 is a better option, according to an interesting posting on nyc.transit today (it reads "M60 service could be improved," or something like that).
Anyway, I'm certainly glad SubTalk is running again! No thanks to those dopes at Bell Atlantic ...
Yes, that was my post. I copied it to BusTalk as well. I'm not going to copy it here too.
I was considering the Q33 for the return trip (even though I'm coming from the Upper West Side) but now that doesn't look so good either. Is the Q48 worth considering? My flight's at noon so I won't have to worry about rush hour traffic this time around. (Well, I shouldn't have had to worry about rush hour traffic last time either but my flight arrived 2.5 hours late.)
You mentioned Triborough Coach lines Todd. Does anyone have any idea how and why one of their buses got stuck on the Jackie Robinson (Interborough) yesterday just before an overpass with too low clearances for it? Somehow he made it through the Union Tnpke overpass (by the IND subway station) and stopped just before the next one. (before Metropolitan Av) They had to back it off. I was wondering if it was stolen. If not, the driver has an awful lot of explaining to do!!
Thank G-d I was in the city all day and didn't notice.
1) Announce that a strike might happen on Dec. 31 at midnight.
2) Have no one show up for the city's millenium bash, causing the city and its businesses to lose millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers to sit home eating pigs in blankets.
3) Don't strike after all, thus avoiding penalties under the Taylor Law.
Hint, I don't plan to be using mass transit on New Years Eve.
Worse than that, the Y2K problem. The signal system will roll back to 1904 . . .
Worse than that, the Y2K problem. The signal system will roll back to 1904 . . .
Good! I hope it rolls back all the 62's and 62A's to Gibbs Hi-V cars, all the redbirds to Composites, and all the B-division equipment to BU's.
I heard from several sources, including several NJT employees that their engineers might strike on 12/31/1999 using the Terrorism clause in their contract.
On the TWU front- I have seen signs in various booths advising of a strict rule enforcement action starting 11/26/1999. Did you hear WCBS Radio--Rudy plans on calling out the national guard if TWU goes out- escorted charter buses, extra police, etc. Perhaps Todd can post more on the CBS story
(Strict rule enforcement beginning 11/26)
Who is doing the enforcing, the MTA or the TWU? Ie. is this a labor slowdown, or a crackdown by management?
It would be TWU. Also- The NJT issue- the clause, according to sources, is they dont have to work if they think there will be a terrorist action.
Hate to say it, but if the TWU takes actions to screw the riders, I will not be happy.
Pataki will be however -- he dislikes the people who ride th subways, is supported by people who DON'T ride the subways, and would love Giuliani to lose the Senate election so he could remain the undispute honcho of the NY State Republicans.
What would be an appropriate response to a slowdown? The state and city could eliminate operating subsidies for the TA, making that surplus disappear in a hurry. The subsidies could then be used for capital expenditures. Legalizing private transit on a mass scale, and allowing their use of bus stops, is another response. Both of these actions, I believe, would help mass transit in the long run, even if they might lead to a fare increase.
[I heard from several sources, including several NJT employees that their engineers might strike on 12/31/1999 using the Terrorism clause in their contract.]
What does that clause involve?
Speaking of terrorism and New Years Eve in Times Square, there is a document (also a video it is transcribed from) now circulating on certain websites specializing in "alternative" takes on the news, such as wwww.sightings.com and wwww.rumormillnews.com, which purports to document a deliberate plan by elements of the military to foment race riots and a shooting spree at that event, not to mention a blackout, leading to Manhattan Island being totally sealed off at about 3:00 AM January 1st. Check it out - if enough people do, then presumably even the slim possibility that this thing is genuine will be eliminated.
According to the Village Voice, confirmed by information apparently obtained from InterNIC concerning the site where the thing first appeared, the video in question was a piece of "art" made by Michael Zieper of Caldwell, NJ. So getting shot by commandos is not something would-be Times Square revelers need to worry about. Getting stranded by NJT or NYCT, on the other hand, is another story.
[Note: while posting the video with the claim that it was obtained from "his cousin in the army" was not a very responsible act on the part of Mr. Zieper, the pressure exerted by the FBI on his ISP to shut the site down is quite troubling in itself. The proper antidote to false information is accurate information, not the muzzling of the false info without due process.]
[1) Announce that a strike might happen on Dec. 31 at midnight.
2) Have no one show up for the city's millenium bash, causing the city and its businesses to lose millions of dollars and hundreds of thousands of New Yorkers to sit home eating pigs in blankets.
3) Don't strike after all, thus avoiding penalties under the Taylor Law.]
Actually, it looks like most people, in New York and elsewhere, will be celebrating the (so-called) millenium by sitting home and eating pigs in blankets (well, at least the first part). Just yesterday it was announced that the mega-party at the Javits Center has been cancelled. And I've heard that advance sales for many other events around the country have been way below expectations.
That's because there are too many employers in paranoia mode. I will be working from 9 PM to 9 AM beginning 27 December through 4 January (and longer if needed - HA! - as far as I am concerned this whole Y2K bug is vastly overrated); my development and support team will be on rotational 8-hour shifts throughout this entire period as well. The more senior members of management will have the day shift, of course. When the clock actually rolls over 1 AM EST on 1 January (midnight CST - that's how our computer network is set) I'll have about 60 of my 85 team members on premises. It's ridiculous, but that's what upper management wants, and what they want they get.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(Paranoia)
You've got that right. My wife will be on the job all weekend. Not because they expect anything to happen, but just in case. Heads will roll if ANYTHING goes wrong. So I'll have to celebrate in the only way appropriate -- by strolling down to the local branch after midnight and finding out if I can withdraw a $20 from the ATM.
Many companies have been offering lots of incentives for employees to stay on, such as office millenium parties, hotel rooms, and the like. Some people actually have volunteered to work during the weekend!
--Mark
If the TWU strikes at midnight, some of those millenium office "parties" could go on for sometime. I'll advise my wife to wear comfortable clothes, and bring a pillow, toothbrush, and deodorant from home -- the local Duane Reade will sell out of those things pretty quickly.
I'd rather stay just one night, and then begin walking 15 kilometers (in my case, although that's not a job, so if I'll be stuck, it'll be at home) to my house at the crack of dawn.
I LIKE THAT!
Very bad move from a public relations standpoint. It would give the mayor and Pataki more public sympathy for playing hardball with transit workers if a real strike did follow.
Also if that was done, it's guaranteed a group of businesses would get together and file suit against the TWU demanding restitution for lost revenues from the people who failed to show up for their New Year's Eve events (similar, but not exactly the same, to the class-action suit filed recently against American Airlines pilots over their slowdown last year). That case would go before a civil jury, and taking a chance with a jury verdict nowadays is pretty dicey.
I remember an retired conductor told me that on the much older trains the opening and closing of the doors was done by an air pressure system, as opposed to the doors opening electronically on newer trains can someone on the board tell me how the air pressure system worked on older cars? Thank you.
This is partially correct. The force used to open and close the
doors on pre-war equipment, including Lo-Vs, MUDCs, C types,
Qs, ABs, Ds, R1-9s and the post-war R-10 was compressed air taken
from the same air compressor as is used for the air brakes.
However, the signal which travels the length of the train and
relays the conductors commands to open and close was transmitted
electrically. Valves operated by an electromagnet ("magnet-valves")
control the compressed air.
In present-day rapid transit equipment, the same door control
lines are used but a 38 volt DC electric motor is used to
move the doors.
I remember the pssst before the door opened on all the old trains. By the way, the old MU cars from the 50's that are being used on the LIRR diesel lines, are their dooors air controlled?
That was the release of air from the pneumatic pistons, if I got it right. Interestingly enough, the BMT standards did not give off any sounds just before their doors would open. I loved those R-1/9 and R-10 door sounds.
Here is my plan for service when the 63rd Street Tunnel AND Manhattan Bridge South Side is open:
B: Same except no service to Queensbridge/Queen Blvd evenings and weekends
D: 205 Street to Brighton Beach when M runs (see below), Express
All other times to Coney Island, local.
F: 71 Avenue to Coney Island, Local
M: Metropolitan Avenue to Coney Island, Local, Rush hours and middays
All other times, to Myrtle Avenue
N: 179 Street to Coney Island, Express (the whole way)
R: Astoria to Bay Ridge, Local
There would also be a line (Q, W, X, V) from 57/6 to somewhere. Any ideas about where this should run?
Q would be the express off of Broadway to 179th as the local
V would replace the current Q to 71st Avenue
Is there going to be any sort of fill-in local service between 71st-Continental Avenue and 179th Street-Jamaica during the rush hours? Perhaps a "W" from 179th to Whitehall (local)....
"D" Brighton express service with the current equipment? No, I won't bash...
Wayne
I agree. Let's not even go there.
A-207-to Both Rockaways Mon-Sun 6A-10PM Express B-No Changes C-168th to Lefferts Mon-Sun 6A-10PM Other times Lefferts to Euclid D-Brighton Beach to 205th St Express Othertimes Coney Island (Local in Bklyn and Bx E-No Changes F-CI-179th St Local All Times G-Mon-Fri 6A-7P to Church Ave K-Brighton-6th Ave-Queens Local via 63rd St Tunnel Mon-Sat 6A-9P Coney Island-Continental Ave/Forest Hills M-No Changes N & R No Changes Q-Broadway-Brighton Exp Brighton Beach-179th Jamaica Mon-Fri 6A-10P C-168th St-Lefferts Blvd Daily 6A-10P other times Euclid-Lefferts Shuttle
Your plan is impossible for the following reasons:
The R will not be restored to Astoria. It was switched to Forest Hills in 87 so it had access to a maintenance facility. All subway lines need direct access to at least one of these, and I remember how awful the old Astoria RR train was.
The F will not become a local in Queens. Community pressure and the layout of tracks with the new connection will render this idea as useless.
Any 63rd. St. train that runs to Queens WILL come off of 6th Ave. I can say this with absolute certainty, even though no service plan has been decided on. It's simply the way the line was designed. Broadway express trains will not operate north of 57th/7th until the Second Ave. spur is opened north of 63rd. And they won't operate into Queens.
My plan:
If the Broadway side on the Manhattan Bridge opens:
Establish a new line (V) to run local from 179th St. to Church Ave/McDonald Ave. from 6 AM-9PM. Extend the R from Continental to 179th during the rush hours and restore F express service east of Forest Hills. When the V doesn't run, route the f thru the 63rd. St. line. Also, run the F express in Brooklyn when the V operates, and extend the G to Church as well, so it wont interfere with express service where it normally crosses over at Fourth Ave. I'm not sure I'd restore the lower level at Bergen St to be used as an express stop. Perhaps it should be left alone and made a local-only station.
If the Broadway tracks on the Manhattan Bridge remain closed:
Extend the Q from 21st. St. to 179th St from 6 AM to 9PM. Route the F thru the 63rd. St. line when the Q doesn't run. Another possibility would be to expand Q service to an every day service, giving Brighton riders weekend express service, something they haven't had in 40 years. Run the B to 145th St. on weekends instead of 21st./Queensbridge.
Why is everyone saying a V. There is H-K before then. It would make sense to bring the K back to 6th Ave where it started
They already have a sign for it (orange bullet) on most car types.
They also have a Broadway Gold "W".
Wayne
When the signs reflecting the double letter elimination were introduced, the K was used to replace the AA (perhaps because "K" sounds like "A" or something) and H was used for the Rockaway Shuttle, which it had been before. So the only letter left for new routes were the really high ones. They probably should have kept revered the uses for the K and Z. The K would still be on the eastern division (it originally appeared in double form on R-27~38 signs as the Bway-Bklyn local to Canal ("Nassau St. local"), even though it wasn't used.) The Z would be the local while the A is the express on 8th Av.
The Daily News have an article on the TA strike and what businesses and banks are plannning to do in case of one..........
www.mostnewyork.com
3TM
I'd hate to see the Daily News the day after the strike started (if it did), if a contingency plan HADN'T been developed. Irrespective of the likelihood of a strike, it would be irresponsible of the city and/or MTA to fail to develop a contingency plan.
However, saying the negotiations are going well but the city's being responsible doesn't grab readers/listeners (it was on the radio and probably TV, too). Saying that a strike seems certain because a plan's being developed does.
David
Whew! We couldn't have paid for publicity like that!
Negotiations update: they seemed to have reached a stalemete. Union officers have refused to hear all but one of management's proposals as they involve substantial givebacks in a time when the TA is flush with cash. Management has taken a hard line and will not discuss practically any issues that the union has raised. Including many procedural and regulatory policy issues that have no cost.
With this stance by both sides, it appears increasingly likely that a strike is iminent.
Remember that I predicted this weeks ago.
MTA: negotiation is irrelevant, resistance is futile.
TWU: show us the money!
Result: A lot of people walking to work on Dec 15!
According to the Daily News, one of the TWU demands is 20 sick days. And one of the management harrassment items posted in managers checking up on employees to see if they are really sick.
Are you guys kidding? Do you know what that sounds like to ordinary employees? Might as well demand 40 vacation days, 20 of which may be taken with no warning, and with no manditory overtime, that train or bus just doesn't go out. Sounds like the late 1970s all over again.
Most private sector employers have eliminated the distinction between vacation and sick days -- there are less days off in todal than before, but you can use them no questions asked, instead of having dishonest employees who "beat the system" come out ahead. I guarantee no one gets more than 30 of these days.
You guys are better off asking for money -- many people might agree that you are underpaid. But when it comes to not showing up for work, public sector employees get little sympathy.
The unwarranted use of sick days has become a pebble in the shoe of TA/TWU relations. Currently every TWU member gets 12 sick days per year either on May 1 or January 1 depending on division. Unfortunately, some individuals treat these like 12 additional vacation days and use them before the end of month issued. Unlike some private sector jobs, in the TA you can save your sick time from year to year. Unfortunately most TA employees don't. It irks me no end when I see a known sick leave abuser telling his fellow workers what suckers they are for saving their time. Then Mr. Nobrains gets really sick and has no sick time. Then the TWU members pass the hat.
But it goes deeper than that and TWU people don't realize that they are their own worst enemy. Every employee gets paid on the basis of 2,080 hours per year. Lets assume that in a given work unit of 100 employees, the average sick leave usage is 9 days per person. That's 9 x 100 x 8 (hours) = 7,200 hours. If the unit still meets it's goals, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that those 7,200 hours are the equivalent of 3.5 workers for a year. So the bean counters figure, "We were successful without these 3.5 employees. Perhaps we can cut 2 jobs next year." That's the way it goes guys....
MABSTOA only gets 6 per year.
Steve makes an exellent point, and I have to agree with
him. Sometimes we are our own worst enemies.
There is a flip side to this token. I don't neccesarily
think it applies to CTA's so that's why Steve is probably
not that familiar with it.
In RTO, you are confined to a train for extended periods
of time. Sometimes two hours. If you need to use a rest
room in that period, you must delay the train and
thousands of the riding public, while you go. It also
tends to be embarrasing.
On days that you may have a case of the runs, I'm sure you
tough it out and go in. Why not? The rest room is just
down the hall. So we take a few more sick days because of
that one. But there's more.
Because we are confined to a train, and work out doors,
and we deal with the public, we are subject to catching
colds more often.
For junior people, the days off frequently change.
sometimes you have scheduled an appointment. Say a doctor
or your accountant. Or maybe your kids teacher. Whatever.
TA policy requires advance notice if you want a day off
other than sick or an emergency. There is a tightly
defined list of emergencies as well. So now you have to
miss that appointment? Many of us have no choice but to
take the day as sick. Or let's say you have a pick job and
set days off. But your baby sitter doesn't show. Sick day.
TA will not give an emergency day for that. Car broke down
on the highway? Sick day. TA won't give an emergency day
or that either. Kid's sick? OK, but submit proof, or face
suspension.
Sick time is the only choice you have. It's not that we're
abusing it. Although some do. But believe me, TA weeds
them out very quickly!
In some cases, the crew office will have your assignment
changed from working overnight, to early in the morning
with just one day off. Whenever an employee is scheduled
for a class, or jury duty, TA medical, etc.
Some folks just can't get up at the time they're used to
getting home on just a day's change. So they take the sick
day.
So as I'm sure in other departments they are sick abuse
cases, in RTO we NEED our sick time. The alternative is a
managment staff that behaved reasonably when employees
have needs. One that understood this is NOT like other
jobs, and stopped treating train crews like we worked in an office.
I do think 20 days is excessive, but it's a tactic we have to take, unless they begin treating us a human beings and not machines.
20 SICK days is too much. If you combined Sick and Vacation and just make it PTO (Personal Time Off) and that be 20 PTO's then fine by me.
As a city employee I get one sick day a month on the 15th but have use restrictions that all of a sudden they are cracking down on. No self treated sick next to a weekend or holiday is the newest crack down.
(No self-treated sick next to a weekend).
One thing that always bothered me is that if you don't see a doctor you have to say you are taking "undocumented" sick time. So the city really wants to increase the number of claims on its health insurance? So I say to hell with it, if I have a bad cold, I just go on in and spread the germs. They work me less hard in the office than in the home anyway.
My wife has a good deal -- there is a doctor on staff right at the FED. If she has a bad cold she can get it checked out right there, and get anti-biotic prescribed if needed, without going out of her way. That saves a lot of sick days, and a lot of personal time. It would be nice if the City had something like that. Then again, the City is not nice.
One of the sad things about getting on in years is the fact that the mind can play some tricks upon it. I know when I was a kid Times Square station was at 42nd Street, and from there we departed the 4th Avenue Local for the Brighton Beach, West End or my Sea Beach. I can recall on my trip to New York this summer that there seemed to be a number of trains that stopped at Times Square. How many do and is it one station with numerous levels or are there a number of separate stations around Times Square? To you New Yorkers this may seem a little bizarre but I've been meaning to ask someone about this. How many different trains stop at Times Square? I'd like to learn that, too. Any help out there?
[How many do and is it one station with numerous levels or are there a number of separate stations around Times Square? To you New Yorkers this may seem a little bizarre but I've been meaning to ask someone about this. How many different trains stop at Times Square? I'd like to learn that, too. Any help out there?]
Times Square station does have a confusing layout. There basically are four separate areas, which can be thought of as separate stations even though they're now within one fare zone. The Broadway BMT (N/R) line runs (roughly) north-south on the east end of the station, while the Seventh Avenue IRT (1/2/3/9) station more or less parallels it to the west. Both of these stations are approximately at the same level. The Shuttle station runs east-west at the north end of the Broadway BMT station at a somewhat higher level, while the Flushing IRT (7) station runs east-west to its south and below all the other stations.
There is a fifth "station" in the Times Square complex: 42nd Street on the 8th Avenue line for A, C, and E trains, connected to the other four with a passage within the paid area.
The Times Square station complex is undergoing a major rehab for the next few years. It'll be interesting to see what it looks like when it's all done.
--Mark
Times Square is a major subway interchange area. The BMT station you remember is one of the very few stations which still have the original porcelain station name placards on the pillars. As part of the rehabilitation going on, the ramps from each platform at the northern end of the station have been removed, presumably because they're too steep to be ADA compliant. You can see where the station was lengthened at the southern end.
When the original Contract One line was designed, the traffic potential at Times Square was grossly underestimated, and the station was built as a local stop. It quickly became the busiest local stop on the line. But that's not all. The error nearly repeated itself when the Dual Contracts were originally signed! One of the two Times Square stations - IRT, IIRC - was originally going to be a local stop before area business owners and citizens made themselves heard. Luckily, someone listened.
The Times Square subway layout can be thought of as a sandwich of sorts. The shuttle is on top; it was built first and runs directly beneath 42nd St. The BMT Broadway line ducks directly beneath it; the IRT 7th Ave. line bumps elbows at the same level, then ramps up to meet the Contract One portion north of Times Square. You can see the grade through the railfan window. The Flushing line is underneath all this.
Although everyone here is more interested in Times Square underground, if you would like to see a present time street level webcam view of Times Square go to http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newyork/timessquare/largeimage_cam1.html I think the cam is at 43 & Bway.
Pete, Steve & the rest of the gang----Thanks! I thought for a moment that my mind was really playing tricks on me. Times Square is a big layout but I never saw this until I returned to New York as a tourist in '74, '91, and this summer. The only Times Square station I knew back when I was a New Yorker was the one where it was the terminal for the Sea Beach, Brighton Express and the West End. Thanks again guys.
Hey Fred, I think its time to move back!!! You too, Bob in Hawaii!!
First of all to Fred, eventually the Brighton went to Astoria after 1954, The Sea Beach and West End went to 57th St in the Mid 50s. To Jeff, even though most of my family still lives in the Tri state Area, the closest I will move to New York will be around Winchester Va, where I just invested in some land(actually Berryville) I can take NYC for about 4-5 days the most at a time. I miss the good food but we already went into that a few weeks ago
Bob: Uh oh! Virginia. Maybe not the place for you. Haven't you heard it's become a Republican state. They now control the whole state legislature, the three top elective offices, and one Senate seat that will become two when George Allen sends Chuck Robb packing next year. You are right about one thing, though. After you have moved out of New York and get settled in a new state and get acclimated to it, you can only take so much of New York. After two weeks of it, which I thoroughly enjoyed, I was glad to get back to California. BUT I DO MISS THE SUBWAY SYSTEM AND ALWAYS WILL. TO ME THERE IS NOTHING LIKE IT IN THE WHOLE WORLD AND WE ALL HAVE GOT TO ADMIT THAT. Right?
Jeff: When I visited New York in August, the only person even remotely connected to this website was a motorman on the Sea Beach. When I got off my first day there ( it was Avenue U), I went up to his window and offered my hand and told him to "shake hands with the Sea Beach Man". He asked me if I was really him, so I guess he is either on this website or knows of people who do. Since I was in a hurry I stupidly forgot to ask his name. Next time I come to New York I want to touch base with you and some more of the guys---people who I now consider extended family, even though I wouldn't know them if I saw them in a crowd. Strange, isn't it? As far as moving back, I've been here in California for 45 years, so it would be very hard.. But it is nice to know that I have people out there who would welcome me back to my birthplace. I'm still proud to call myself a native New Yorker, though. Bob, my Hawaiian buddy, might be a more likely candidate. He doesn't like Hawaii any more than New York. I hope you had a great Thanksgiving.
NO NO NO I will not move back to NYC unless you offered me a house with 5 bedrooms, 3 baths central Air, pool at 150K and a job at $50K min a year
Well we are in agreement there. But as soon as I hit the lottery, I'm going to challenge you on that. I'll bet you still won't want to live in New York.
Talking about rehab on the Brighton Line, I just received my Subway Calender this afternoon, better late then never. I just love the photo in January, reminds me of being a kid I think the winter of 55-56, when school was closed due to a blizzard. The only difference is that the Brighton Express at that time was Triplex. Also Feb with the Triplex Brighton on the Astoria Line. First 2 #1 Brightons Way to Go Bill
I have nothing new to report, as I am still waiting for the new breed to enter the IRT mainline. Has anyone been near or around Coney Island Yard and noticed anything peculiar? There's probably some activity on the West End Line if the cars are travelling by the South Brooklyn Rwy. Get your cameras out, as it'll be interesting.
I haven't noticed anything at E180th St or 207th St Yards as of yet.
My watch continues on with the IRT - as soon as I see something, I'll report it.
Last note: I spotted the R110A today in test service. Now that the R142 is here, shouldn't testing of the R110A be over? I can't help but wonder what will ultimately become of the R110A - will it go off to the scrap line or will it continue on with the R142s?
Cheers,
Stef
I may be half asleep, but at least there may have been activity on the West End Line for the first of the new batch. It would sure be nice if there was something on that line to photograph, even at Bush Terminal with the SBK Locos!!! Yeah!!!
Now I think I'll be taking a snooze....
Until Next Time,
Stef
Stef--- There is a third possibility about the R110A and the R142's that you haven't considered.
They will both go to the scrap line.
By the way, did you buy your R142 watch at the Transit Museum? How long did it run before you had to send it back to the manufacturer?
A comedian, eh? I went out and brought my R142 watch and I'd be happy to announce that it didn't have to go back to Plattsburgh. It's bright and it works, as I can see the LED (oh wow). Cars are going off to the scrap line? You better hope not! Would you like to find yourself waiting a very long time for a train? If this is what you'd like, you'd probably get inconvenienced, big time.
Would you mind contributing something serious?
-Stef
Heypaul (in his comedic thinking) might have said something right. The Transit Museum needs to sell R142 watches. I'll talk to my colleagues and ask if they're getting a new shipment of red and black watches from Plattsburgh and Yonkers.
-Stef
11/24/99
ON second thought if the R-142 watch takes off , can an R-68 watch be far behind? OOOOOhhh! I know. The R-68 watch will always run slow.
Bill Newkirk
Good one!!!
Happy Holidays,
Stef
Heypaul-
If you have not done so already, it's time to get yourself up to Boston, and ride Bombardier's 01800 series car on the red line. These trains run well and our in good shape....and so can the R142's. Yes, there could be some bugs in the beginning....thats why the trains are just starting to arrive now instead of last May. Make no mistake, this is the real thing, not a prototype like the R110! -Nick
Thanks for that thought, Nick. I can't help but wonder if the R142 will be able to perform as well as the R62A?
-Stef
I hope the R110A isn't retired. As the only IRT car with foward facing window seats, I love it!
As for the R110B, I'd say they'd be perfect for Franklin Shuttle service, if the platforms were extended to accomodate a 3 car set (201'). Their mechanical train announcements are ideal for OPTO service.
I imagine that with the money put into the R110A, it doesn't necessarily have to go off to the scrap line. Since it is a prototype of a future generation of subway cars to come, I'd expect the cars to be modified to operate with the newer R142As from Kawasaki. They're very much similar to the new fleet.
The R110B? It's ok. Unfortunately, 3 cars were sacrificed for parts which is really terrible because of all this money the TA put into the set. They could save it, if it was rebuilt to R143 specs (fitting it with R143 parts), although it probably won't run in train with the R143s since the R143s are only 60'6" while the R110B is 67'.
-Stef
I hear the R-142s will be delivered through Linden. If that's true, then they can just bypass Coney Island and deliver directly to 180 through the IRT.
True, true. Linden's a logical place. My question has to do with component assembly. If there are components on the car that haven't been set up on the unit, wouldn't the set(s) have to travel to C.I. or 207th St for a final inspection? What I should say is what's the reason for having the equipment travelling to a major shop in the first place? I'm sure even the mechanics at the Overhaul Shop need to get familiar with the new breed. I know that E180th St can do general maintenance, but the heavy duty work (such as truck replacement) goes to C.I. or 207 Yard. Perhaps someone from the shop can clarify this for me.
-Stef
Probably would be road and brake testing. This process involves placing scrap steel, usually old wheels inside the cars to test load weigh valves and motor contol functions. It usually runs on one of the express tracks on the Sea Beach but when these cars go to the IRT, they will likely use the new Y3 track installed on the Dyre Avenue line installed for track testing. It will be months before the cars see passengers, that is unless BOMBadier installed Buckeye Trucks :-)
Let's wait and see what happens. Hopefully, they won't be a bomb.
-Stef
For those of you guys who e mailed me advice about a new computer. Thank You, I made my purchase today. Once again thanks Bob
For many of us, Thanksgiving is a warm holiday, a chance to
be with family and friends and fill ourselves with
turkey and the trimmings. Maybe not everyone in the
family is a pleasure to be with, but still it's
family. For others, it is a time when we are
reminded of what others have, and we may be saddened
by what is missing in our own lives. Yet if we look
around us, we see people in the world who have much
less than we do, people who are without home and
without hope. For all of us, Thanksgiving can be a
time of awareness of what we have in our lives, and
also of the blessings we have that we take for
granted.
I have discovered a family of people here at SubTalk
who share an interest in transit and also a strong
desire to communicate and share that interest. The
information that gets exchanged here represents a
real growth in awareness and appreciation of what
our transit system in New York and other cities
means to us as buffs, to the riding public, and to
the people who make it run. SubTalk is a richly
prepared table that we can come to every day and
find ideas and people that nourish us.
So my thanks to David Pirmann the creator and
maintainer of this very special space. My thanks to
all of you for making this a place that feels like a
family of friends. I hope that we can spend many
more moments together.
Well said!..And HAPPY THANKSGINING!
Uh..Lets try that again,HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!
Happy Thanksgiving to all. May none of your Subway rides ever be Turkeys!
Happy Turkey Day weekend to one and all!
--Mark
Give thanks that we got through another year. Be merry and certainly enjoy your dinner.
Go out and enjoy yourself and see if you can do some railfanning in the subway system or along the conventional railroads if you have the time to!!!
Sincerely,
Stef
[May none of your Subway rides ever be Turkeys!]
In other words, may we never have to ride on R68s!
I can only wish....that the R-10s could be resurrected!
Aloha and Happy Thanksgiving from Beautiful Sunny Maui
heypaul.....You have the ability to put into words thoughts that many of us have but are unable to express as well as you. I echo your words and thank you for writing them.
I hope the everyone here has a really great Thanksgiving Holiday!
I'm lucky enough to have Friday off, as I hope some of you are, so it'll be a good day to ride the rails, weekday schedules and all.
The Day After isn't as good as other weekday holidays (King, Good Friday, Columbus, Election, Vets, the high holidays) because enforcement of alternate side makes parking options limited, and trains are VERY crowded with shoppers who are not regular riders ("Does this go to Broadway?"), but it's still a good opportunity, weather permitting.
I want to try the Main/Bergen line again, hopefully going over the Main in one direction and over the Bergen in the other. The weekend schedules on this line are much too restrictive to do this easily. If it rains Friday (Todd?), I might just settle for the 'Q' back and forth, which we never get bored with.
December's generally a bad month to ride on weekends what with all the shoppers, so I always regarded the Day After as the 'last time' to really indulge till nice, quiet January.
Enjoy your holiday. I'm offline till Monday (oh, the withdrawal!)
I'm off Friday, also. Might be a good day to go ride mass transit.
Happy Thanksgiving to all the Sub-Talkers and their families.
Chuck Greene
Happy Thanksgiving to all. Its time to reflect on what this holiday really means. We have freedom, we have plenty. What more can we ask. God Bless America.
Happy Thanksgiving to all. Its time to reflect on what this holiday really means. We have freedom, we have plenty. What more can we ask. God Bless America.
[We have freedom, we have plenty. What more can we ask.]
I could answer "a Second Avenue subway," but that wouldn't be in keeping with the spirit of Thanksgiving.
Yes, and we have subways. Gobble Gobble, to one and all.
But we don't have the Manhattan Bridge for my Sea Beach. Yuk. Any new news on the Manhattan Bridge construction work? Haven't heard any thing on that for a couple of months. To all my railfan brothers, have a happy Thanksgiving, but easy does it on the booze.
11/24/99
Happy Thanksgiving from Bill Newkirk to all SubTalkers and their family and friends! We're all thankful for something on this day. I am thankful since being a SubTalker since July , has enabled me to communicate with other SubTalkers across the nation and other countries. All the best for a wonderful day to everyone!
BTW - One memory of Thanksgiving growing up in Brooklyn was the sight after a tremendous Thanksgiving meal of the women cleaning up the table getting ready for dessert (more food) and the men on the couch stuffed and sleeping while a football games plays on the old Zenith 21" black & white console! This was repeated every Thanksgiving.
Bill Newkirk
[One memory of Thanksgiving growing up in Brooklyn was the sight after a tremendous Thanksgiving meal of the women cleaning up the table getting ready for dessert (more food) and the men on the couch stuffed and sleeping while a football games plays on the old Zenith 21" black & white console! This was repeated every Thanksgiving.]
Some things never change, except now more of the men help with the dishes and more of the women watch football!
a nice ride on a window fan rail car
would be a good thanksgiving for me !!
LIKE THE # 7 LINE !!!!!!thank you.
I would Like to wish you and the Subtalk Community a very happy and Safe Thanksgiving and God bless.
My feelings exactly. Happy Thanksgiving to all!
Those !@#$s at PCH laid me off last week after 7 loyal years, but I'm still glad to be in the greatest city in the world.
All you need to know to determine that the USA is the greatest country on earth: walk into any supermarket and look at the selection and sheer number of items for sale.
Happy Thanksgiving
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'd say rather, especially on Thanksgiving, that those shelves stocked with delicious foods are a testament to God's blessings. Just think: all the food we need to eat could have been created without taste and smell - we'd still eat it and be full - however... There's a very big small blessing to be thankful for.
I'd say rather, especially on Thanksgiving, that those shelves stocked with delicious foods are a testament to God's blessings. Just think: all the food we need to eat could have been created without taste and smell - we'd still eat it and be full - however... There's a very big small blessing to be thankful for.
We should also be thankful that we weren't born into 3rd World poverty. We could be living in North Korea with no food and no freedom. Same goes for Cuba, Iraq and many other places. In China they have food, but no freedom.
Much of the world has no freedom of speech, a decent economy, or bountiful soil. That's why we have this holiday...
Thanks, Paul for that eloquent statement. I myself have a few things to be thankful for this year, so I really can't complain. I had some of the best Subway experiences ever this year, thanks to my good friends here at SubTalk - Simon Billis, subway-buff, Dave P., Steve B.,Mark F., Thurston, Doug the BMT Man, among others I have ridden with during the course of the year. Thanks to all for many hours and days of pleasure. And some new sights and improvements underground, as well.
Oh well, time to go upstairs and mash the rutabagas. Lovely.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL
Wayne
Likewise. I extend my best wishes for a happ Thanksgiving. I have enjioyed my rides with SImon Billis, Wayne, Steve B, Dave P and the many others from subtalk that I have met.
OOPS! I forgot several important people: Thurston,and Steve (Concourse Yard), Doug, and any others I forgot to list.
I wish a very Happy Thanksgiving to all the SubTalk People and their familys.
I am back after being out with the flu for about a month.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Home of the B, D, and #4 train.
We don't celebrate thanksgiving over here, the Turkey's union won't allow it. I hope all of you had an excellent day.
I too have a lot to thank this site for, many new friends, who have opened a whole new chapter for me. But, the best is yet to come and I now look forward to next year and some more trips to New York. My one wish is for more of you to visit Rob Morel and nyself in London and then I can return the kind hospitality that has been extended to me.
Simon
Swindon UK
Internet services firm USWeb/CKS is the latest company to squeeze money out of NYC after making relocation threats. According to an item in today's _Wall Street Journal_, the company's getting $4.5 million in tax "incentives" from the city, with some state money thrown in as well, for its new facility near Union Square. USWeb/CKS will be relocating 450 of its 600 NYC employees to the new facility from five existing sites elsewhere in the city. Note that there's no mention of _expanded_ employment. And there won't be any new construction - although the WSJ item doesn't say so, the new facility is actually a building that Guardian Life Insurance will be vacating when it moves to the Financial District. But USWeb/CKS was able to open the city's coffers merely by saying that it was "considering locations" in New Jersey and Connecticut.
I would be so pleased if once, just once, the city told a company seeking incentives to jump in a lake. But don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.
Think about it. All you have to do is cut a deal with the Mayor, and you don't have to pay taxes. Meanwhile, all the other businesses have to pay through the nose. What goes into those deals? You don't see either Democrats or Republicans questioning the connection. It's dirty, I guarantee it.
It's simple, they threaten to head to New Jersey or some other location. As soon as these words are spoken, the Mayor (whomever is in the office, it dosen't matter) and the Governor panic and offer them whatever they want to keep their jobs in NYC. I have yet to see if the amount of revenue the city retains by keeping those jobs is more or less than the incentives goven and how many of those companies would really leave.
At the end of the day, some rich corporation gets millions of dollars in tax abathments, meanwhile we can't get the "temporary" surtax on the NYC income tax removed and the bus/subwar fare most likely will be $2.00 before long.
NYC got itself into this incentives mess over the years by having too many taxes on business. So now business has learned how to play rough. The city should reduce taxes on all businesses, especially the commercial occupancy tax. But that still won't stop a large employer from using the threat of relocation to obtain tax breaks. It's the nature of the game now. Meanwhile back office and support jobs are moving without fanfare to Jersey City, Hoboken and even Weehawken, NJ.
The rents are cheaper there and the taxes are lower. I read a few weeks back in the S.I. Advance that new class A office space on Staten Island along South Avenue is being snapped up, which I found suprising. Crains had a story this week about a large telecom company taking space in Long Island City Queens. But these intra-city relocations are the exception.
The basic solution is to put more business into the boros. The city removed the commercial rent tax everywhere except south of the center line on 96t Street. The big problem is getting there. The roads are too congested, there is not enough transit. Downtown Brooklyn is great for those who live there and for those who can take the LIRR to Atlantic Ave. but try getting there from Westchester or New Jersey. You can't. The Long Island City area as well has its problems. Swingline moved out and that building has been empty for over a year. Unless a major investment is made in transit to the boros, both mass transit and better roadways, more business will continue to migrate.
The City doesn't put businesses anywhere, businesses put themselves. And if they put themselves in the outer boroughs, they pay no commercial rent tax. If a new commercial building is built outside Manhattan south of 96th Street, for 15 to 30 years the property tax owed on the building is ZERO, as of right, automatically, no deal required. Most people don't know this, but they should.
The one tax that still needs to be cut is the unincorporated business tax, which taxes entreprenuers twice on the same income. They already pay personal income taxes like the rest of us, that's enough. I believe that tax will be proposed for repeal in the next budget. At that point businesses will have no excuse to complain about high taxes -- most of their tax payments will be going to Albany (and not coming back).
But they will still have a reason to complain about poor services. Cutting the property taxes for large, rich Manhattan companies at the expense of (in the past) high taxes (and still today) poor services that hurt new, entreprenurial businesses, is economic suicide.
The city should stop worrying about old businesses moving to New Jersey, and start worrying about new businesses. It is the nature of the advantages and disadvantages of the city -- established companies move out to cut costs, growth companies move in to increase revenues.
The city should stop worrying about old businesses moving to New Jersey, and start worrying about new businesses. It is the nature of the advantages and disadvantages of the city -- established companies move out to cut costs, growth companies move in to increase revenues.
Hear, hear! To me the interesting parts of the USWeb/CKS deal were that they weren't required to add employees and that it was the first such deal in the rapidly-growing new media biz.
This leads to an amazing possibility: Every time a new-media/web startup/internet company moves offices (and owing to tightness and cost of space, plus explosive growth, this happens a LOT), it tells the city, "We're going to move to Jersey City/Long Island/whatever unless you help .... " and gets a deal.
At what level will the city start saying no? Does a company with 25 people that projects growing to 200 in a year get a deal? If it moves twice in 3 years, does it get two deals? Etc.
I could argue that company is a better economic bet (growth industry, clean industry, higher taxes paid by yuppie employees, wants to be in NYC) than back-office stuff that by rights perhaps SHOULD be elsewhere. But then there's the solid lower/middle-class jobs vs. yuppie jobs argument.
Of course if the web biz totally crashes, this is all moot. But I don't think it will. Lots of lumps and ups/downs, but it's here to stay. And a lot of it wants to be in NYC. And it learns VERY quickly. Hence what will be an increasing demand for concessions from NYC.
What will it take (Larry?) to get the city to start saying, "Look, we know you need and want to be in NYC and that you can't get employees to come to Long Island -- hell, they gripe if you're above 23rd St. We'll help, but you ain't getting major concessions -- you don't need 'em" Then, what does it take to extend that message to a lot of the others?
(What does it take to stop the ripoff.)
Getting rid of the Democrats and Republicans. Really, the existing cliques have no concern about the future, hence no reason to treat new businesses fairly. The only good news is that the New York Stock Exchange might go out of business before the city succeeds in giving it a billion dollars.
[The one tax that still needs to be cut is the unincorporated business tax, which taxes entreprenuers twice on the same income. They already pay personal income taxes like the rest of us, that's enough. I believe that tax will be proposed for repeal in the next budget. At that point businesses will have no excuse to complain about high taxes -- most of their tax payments will be going to Albany (and not coming back).]
The UBT is one of the few city taxes that actually makes economic sense. NYC, probably more so than most other cities, is chock-full of large businesses that are organized as partnerships rather than corporations and therefore pay no entity-level income taxes (that includes federal and state income taxes too). Law firms, accounting firms, advertising agencies and consulting firms are examples of these noncorporate entities. Many of them are highly profitable and fairness concerns dictate that they should pay *some* taxes.
[But they will still have a reason to complain about poor services. Cutting the property taxes for large, rich Manhattan companies at the expense of (in the past) high taxes (and still today) poor services that hurt new, entreprenurial businesses, is economic suicide.]
Poor services are less likely to affect businesses than individuals. Most of the city's spending goes for education, health care and social services. These things are of only indirect interest to businesses. Transportation (including to some extent transit), public safety and sanitation probably are the most important municipal services from a business standpoint. The latter two, at least, seem to be among the better ones today.
[The city should stop worrying about old businesses moving to New Jersey, and start worrying about new businesses. It is the nature of the advantages and disadvantages of the city -- established companies move out to cut costs, growth companies move in to increase revenues.]
Any major or even not-so-major move to New Jersey gets plenty of media attention, while startups usually toil in relative obscurity. It's no surprise that the politicians are far more concerned about the former.
I know many of the posters here live in Jersey City. There's a place that really got raped by the incentive game. They bribed all these companies to move over by promising them that they didn't have to pay LOCAL taxes, but of course they still pay substantial STATE taxes to the State of New Jersey. Lo and behold, Jersey City has more people and firms to serve, but no money, so it asks the state for some. And, the state says -- GO TO HELL.
Either the state should be willing to pour some of the business tax revenues collected in Jersey City back in, or Jersey City should tell all those businesses to move back to New York, if all the benefits will go to rest of the state anyway.
How about all those stadium deals? New York City residents are paying state taxes to fund minor league stadia all over the state, but did the city even ask the rest of the state to pay for Giuliani's minor league palaces? No! Why would Rudy want to share the credit for paying off his friends with Pataki?
I agree about in Unincorporated Business Tax. I also would like to see the city recognize Subchapter S Corporations. (In a Sub S, the income is taxed to sharehlders, like a partnership. In NYC, they still pay a corporate level tax). Yes this would hurt the city financially in the short run, but in the long run, it would make the city a much less expensive place to do business and more business would flock here, and fewer would leave.
The long term benefits would be for more ridership on all train, bus and subway lines, which would bolster their bottom lines, and perhaps we could get the additional lines we have needed here for the past fifty years.
[At that point businesses will have no excuse to complain about high taxes -- most of their tax payments will be going to Albany (and not coming back).]
But that's a major problem, for the rust belt upstaters as well as the City. And there are some bizarre taxes out there, such as the $400 surcharge on medical insurance which goes to research hospitals to train many more doctors than we need.
Also, I think one has to consider the costs of other taxes which indirectly raise costs for local businesses by increasing the local cost of living and driving up salaries.
[The basic solution is to put more business into the boros. The city removed the commercial rent tax everywhere except south of the center line on 96t Street. The big problem is getting there. The roads are too congested, there is not enough transit. Downtown Brooklyn is great for those who live there and for those who can take the LIRR to Atlantic Ave. but try getting there from Westchester or New Jersey. You can't. The Long Island City area as well has its problems. Swingline moved out and that building has been empty for over a year. Unless a major investment is made in transit to the boros, both mass transit and better roadways, more business will continue to migrate.]
It's not just the boros--Manhattan businesses list transportation as one of their major concerns. But we routinely block any improvement in automobile transportation, and our transportation network remains a strange patchwork that for lack of a few basic links and some upgrading does much less than it should. A tunnel from NJ to Lower Manhattan and thence to Brooklyn, while obvious and desireable, would be expensive. But why do we have an almost unutilized line down the West Side, which could easily be extended down West Street to take trains from almost every RR to Lower Manhattan? Why do we have a beautiful and almost completely unimpeded ROW from GCT down the East Side, which could do the same? Why don't we automate trains to allow low headway use of the multiplicity of tunnels and bridges, and take modified commuter trains from NJ down the East and West side from NJ and Westchester, serving lower Manhattan and Brooklyn through the tunnels, while at the same time providing a high speed links to the region's airports and a direct Jamaica-lower Manhattan connection for the LIRR?
None of these things require huge investments as these things go; in fact, automation, while moderately costly to install, would quickly save a fortune. But it seems that somebody always has a reason for why something can't be done--or worse, commissions a study.
But why do we have an almost unutilized line down the West Side, which could easily be extended down West Street to take trains from almost every RR to Lower Manhattan?
The High Line, you mean? Well, (a) It's an elevated structure and passes through an area that, until the last 2-3 years, was sparsely populated during the day (lots of high-square-footage, low-people industries) and virtually deserted at night; and (b) it is destined to terminate at 14th Street as Rockrose has been tearing it down block by block in the way West Village to build expensive apartments that don't have ROW holes through them. That is ROW that's gone forever.
Why do we have a beautiful and almost completely unimpeded ROW from GCT down the East Side, which could do the same?
Huh? HUH? What ARE you referring to? The 2nd Ave subway ROW? A *surface* ROW? Huh? Explain ...
[The High Line, you mean? Well, (a) It's an elevated structure and passes through an area that, until the last 2-3 years, was sparsely populated during the day (lots of high-square-footage, low-people industries) and virtually deserted at night; and (b) it is destined to terminate at 14th Street as Rockrose has been tearing it down block by block in the way West Village to build expensive apartments that don't have ROW holes through them. That is ROW that's gone forever.]
Not just the freight tunnel, but the entire West Side Freight line, which is four tracks wide along much of the way and already has obsolete commuter stations. Where the el ends below 14th Street it would have to be extended down the surface of West Street on the river side, with an occasional over or underpass, but there's plenty of room for a 2 track new technology railroad.
[Why do we have a beautiful and almost completely unimpeded ROW from GCT down the East Side, which could do the same?]
Huh? HUH? What ARE you referring to? The 2nd Ave subway ROW? A *surface* ROW? Huh? Explain ...
Surface, yes. There's room for at least two tracks of a new technology system almost all the way from 42nd Street to the ferry terminal. Vast swathes of this space are empty, or have parking lots, or essentially unused roads; the only significant obstruction is at 14th St. where the power plant constricts the ROW and would require a few blocks of tunneling or a viaduct for the cars (or a modification of the power plant, if that's feasible).
[[[Why do we have a beautiful and almost completely unimpeded ROW from GCT down the East Side, which could do the same?]]
[Huh? HUH? What ARE you referring to? The 2nd Ave subway ROW? A *surface* ROW? Huh? Explain ...]
[Surface, yes. There's room for at least two tracks of a new technology system almost all the way from 42nd Street to the ferry terminal. Vast swathes of this space are empty, or have parking lots, or essentially unused roads; the only significant obstruction is at 14th St. where the power plant constricts the ROW and would require a few blocks of tunneling or a viaduct for the cars (or a modification of the power plant, if that's feasible).]
I still can't figure out what you mean. The power plant at 14th Street is way over on the East Side, between First Avenue and the river. What route would the surface tracks follow south from Grand Central? I certainly don't know of any "vast swathes" of empty space along the way.
[I still can't figure out what you mean. The power plant at 14th Street is way over on the East Side, between First Avenue and the river. What route would the surface tracks follow south from Grand Central? I certainly don't know of any "vast swathes" of empty space along the way.]
I'm talking about the East Side waterfront, by the highway. The tracks from Grand Central would have to jog over, which either means a few blocks of tunneling or a temporary share with the #7 in which case commuter trains couldn't use it and tunnel capacity would have to be increased with automation.
As to the ROW, I've walked the whole thing, trains in mind (that's dedication for you!) Where the highway is elevated, there's a beautiful grim open space underneath that almost looks like it was designed for trains. When it runs on the surface there are still plenty of unused roads--you might have to eliminate a couple of taxi driver shortcuts at the 42nd Street end, and you'd certainly lose some parking lots unless you put them on piers. The line would require construction of some pedestrian underpasses and overpasses and a few ramps to take vehicles under the track, e.g. at the sanitation dept. facility. A fish market loading area would have to be moved or modified, and in the area where an access road runs along a park the park would have to be extended out on piers to make up for the small loss of space. There's also an apartment complex between the highway and the river, and while there's plenty of room to fit the train there I'm sure the people there would NIMBY, so it might be necessary to go into a cut and a tunnel for a few blocks (my pet idea is a glass tunnel built over the surface, but I don't know if that would be adequate), and the same thing is true at the South Street Seaport if you wanted the line to go all the way downtown. So it would be more expensive to build than if the ROW were unimpeded, but a far cry from the $350 million/mile it costs to build a two track tunnel.
So:
--You'd get direct access from GCT downtown--a very high speed shuttle (room to bank the curves/swing the cars in at least part of it) and/or bring down Metro North/NHRR trains.
--You could connect GCT directly to Penn Station, though the route would be indirect unless you tunneled down Lex to 33rd/32nd St. (or stole the car tunnels--are they big enough?) and went East from there. That would let you send NJT and Amtrak trains down it, although West Street would be a more logical route. You could also send LIRR trains down it, as well as LGA and JFK air trains.
--Using automation, track brakes, electronic control, and high speed switches, you could offer high speed local, express, and zoned superexpress service with the same two tracks. At GCT, you wouldn't just switch to a superexpress to go downtown, you'd get on a train that went directly to Fulton Street or South Ferry to meet the subway lines at an average speed of--120 mph?--depending on curves and how much room the ROW has for banking and swings. How about 4 minutes from GCT right to your downtown subway line, including latency? And you'd have the incredible throughput of an automated system where cars travel as quickly as the track allows with virtually no headway.
Throughput would be limited by the slowest point, which would probably be the curves from GCT, and even there there might be room to speed things up by adding tracks.
--If you used smaller shuttle vehicles you could offer zoned service that crosses lower Manhattan as a trolley--Fulton St. trolley, Wall St. Trolley, etc.
--You could offer Preppie Express service, starting in the Bronx, running through the Park Avenue tunnels, and then going all the way down to lower Manhattan.
Then too, service could be upgraded incrementally, beginning with a busway, then automating the line and running pneumatic diesel electric vehicles which could also serve as trackless trollies when they got downtown. At it's cheapest, the whole system wouldn't be much more than some concrete barriers and a few traffic lights. Not as fast as high speed trains, but you could probably run three lanes to handle rush hour traffic. The main problem would be getting over from GCT to the river; in any variant I can think of, that requires automating the #7 or LIRR service to Penn, or building a new tunnel.
Your ideas about the waterfront are interesting, but run into two problems. First, many people want all that unused area for public and private parks and recreation space. Second, the place that most people need to go is the commercial core from 3rd Avenue to 8th Avenue. To get there, unless you live or work on the East Side itself, you'd have to change trains AT LEAST twice. So few people would ride the service.
Would that river line really be better than a ferry service? How about a water-train with stations up and down the east side, with a commuter rail type charge and free transfer to the subway/bus system?
This type of service also runs into the fact that the waterfront it distant from the concentration of commercial activity, cross town bus service crawls at less than eight miles per hour, and the subway system does not reach to the waterfront.
Perhaps if the Time Square shuttle were extended along 43nd Street as I suggested (and the #7 train were extended in the other direction), rising with falling grade to an above-ground watefront terminal at a ferry landing, such a system could work. You'd get off the ferry at 41st or 43rd and take a cross-town rail to Midtown (in Downtown the commercial concentrations and subways are closer to the waterfront).
Those living on the Hudson or East River waterfront could pay a premium fare for a nicer ride, and still get to Time Square of Grand Central in a reasonable amount of time. Might work, but you'd need to build the cross town subway, ferry docks, etc.
[Your ideas about the waterfront are interesting, but run into two problems. First, many people want all that unused area for public and private parks and recreation space.]
I agree we should have a park and recreation facilities along the river. But most of the area I would use is unsuitable for parks and recreation because it's under an elevated highway right out of Gotham City. Where it isn't, I would extend the park out by building a two-lane wide promenade on piers--it's a lot easier to support people than trains. Overall, the project would make for better, more accessible parks, not worse ones.
[Second, the place that most people need to go is the commercial core from 3rd Avenue to 8th Avenue. To get there, unless you live or work on the East Side itself, you'd have to change trains AT LEAST twice. So few people would ride the service.]
While it would offer local service, I don't see this as primarily being a local subway--that's the job of the Second Avenue subway, which is better situated for the job. I see it primarily as a relatively inexpensive way to build a superexpress service that takes the load off the Lexingon Avenue and get people from the feeder areas--the Bronx, upper Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn--between the main business districts. It would tie into the existing crosstown lines, so that someone from Brooklyn who wanted to get uptown say could grab the superexpress at Atlantic Avenue or further out, take a zoned trip to 59th Street, and make one transfer to get across. A lot, really, from only two tracks. Besides which, housing and business have a way of sprouting up when new transportation is introduced.
[Would that river line really be better than a ferry service? How about a water-train with stations up and down the east side, with a commuter rail type charge and free transfer to the subway/bus system?
This type of service also runs into the fact that the waterfront it distant from the concentration of commercial activity, cross town bus service crawls at less than eight miles per hour, and the subway system does not reach to the waterfront.]
The subway system actually does reach the waterfront in the business districts, there are just no stations there. But the existing Midtown crosstown links--63rd, 59th, 53rd, 42nd, 33rd/32nd, 14th--all cross the proposed route, and could be linked in by building stations. Similarly, all the downtown lines cross the route in the Downtown business district.
One way of looking at it is that it's a displaced 2nd Avenue subway, not as well situated for travel from residential districts below 42nd Street but better able to handle the load from GCT and $8 billion cheaper. And there are large areas where it would indeed serve important residential/business areas that currently have no service at all.
I've thought about ferries too. Unfortunately, they can't offer a one stop ride from GCT (or Penn on the West Side), meaning that existing lines will be faster and more attractive. Otherwise, they suffer from all the access problems a train would have, but worse, since they're out on docks and they're slower.
[Perhaps if the Time Square shuttle were extended along 43nd Street as I suggested (and the #7 train were extended in the other direction), rising with falling grade to an above-ground watefront terminal at a ferry landing, such a system could work. You'd get off the ferry at 41st or 43rd and take a cross-town rail to Midtown (in Downtown the commercial concentrations and subways are closer to the waterfront).
Those living on the Hudson or East River waterfront could pay a premium fare for a nicer ride, and still get to Time Square of Grand Central in a reasonable amount of time. Might work, but you'd need to build the cross town subway, ferry docks, etc.]
I can see a ferry service as a cheap way to offer a subway equivalent to people on the rivers, but it would have to be significantly redesigned--the current ferries are too labor intensive (two guys to throw ropes!) and don't dock quickly enough or load and unload quickly enough to offer good service.
Also, every time I look at the ferry business I end up saying, hey, why, there's already a ROW here that's closer to where the people are and can handle a lot more traffic. That's particularly evident on the upper West Side where there's already a line with commuter stations.
[NYC got itself into this incentives mess over the years by having too many taxes on business. So now business has learned how to play rough. The city should reduce taxes on all businesses, especially the commercial occupancy tax. But that still won't stop a large employer from using the threat of relocation to obtain tax breaks. It's the nature of the game now. Meanwhile back office and support jobs are moving without fanfare to Jersey City, Hoboken and even Weehawken, NJ.]
Both NYC and NYS should reduce taxes until they're competitive with other localities. A higher growth rate, compounded over a few years, would do more for revenue and for the unfortunates dependent on the City and State than a high tax rate ever will.
What's amazing to me is that in spite of sky high taxes, terrible schools, and distortions in the housing market caused by rent control, the City's economy has been growing, though at a lower rate than the country's. I'd love to see what would happen if taxes were competitive. The place could really explode--and with wealth and population come power, including the power to redress some of the inequities that have been foisted on us by the State and Federal governments.
I was just thinking back to when the Fifth Ave Coach
Lines had a protracted strike, that eventually led
to their take-over by the city thus forming MABSTOA.
Although I don't believe a strike will occur, for
reasons that I will spare you at the moment, could a
prolonged strike in December lead to a similar
take-over forming the Metropolitan Transportation
Authority Operating Authority MTAOA?
Seriously though, in fairness to the MTA, and with
regrets to the workers who feel poorly treated, over
the last couple of years we have witnessed a
revolution in the fare structure that has provided a
real financial benefit to many passengers. People
may still gripe about late trains, dirty trains, but
many people have realized a substantial savings in
transit costs. And for a transit buff, getting a FUN PASS and going in and out of buses and trains all day long is like being a kid all over again, if in fact you made the mistake of growing up.
I'm not quite sure I follow your question, but if you're asking whether a prolonged strike could mean a breakup of the MTA as we know it, I'd say the answer is quite possibly yes. Its structure may not be ideal and surely there might be better alternatives.
All kinds of changes, good and bad, become posssible if the strike is prolonged. But the State holds all the cards, so any breakup is likely to hurt the city -- ie the commuter railroads keep all the MTA taxes and the entire toll surplus.
If it could be otherwise, I'd be happy to have the City take back the TA, the TBTA, and the dedicated MTA taxes generated within its borders. Not so easy in the suburbs, however, since multiple counties are involved.
MTA: money thrown away. Just another buracracy. You're right, but the TA should be a mayoral agency, with a mayor-appointed comissioner. The TBTA money should fund it and NOT the commuter roads. Those are a clear cut case for a state agency becuase they cross county and state lines.
This plan would bring some accountability and some savings and efficencies. Why should we pay for TWO of so many things?
... the TA should be a mayoral agency, with a mayor-appointed comissioner.
No ... NO ... NOOOOOOO ! ! ! I can see it now: The mayor decides to arrest all riders who don't step aside from the doorways ... and then moves onto everyone who doesn't stay to the right on the escalators ... following with a program to close all subway stations within a half-mile radius of any government facility because of unspecified terrorist threats ... and finally has all active-duty members of the press arrested on site within any TA mode of transit.
The sentiment behind insulating the TA/MTA from politics is, I think, sound. To me many of the problems stem from the publicly-owned, nonprofit nature of the operations (note I didn't include capital here). It's hard to imagine, given the complaints I've been reading here, that transit workers could be WORSE treated by private enterprise running the RRs on the basis of aggressive marketing and attracting customers by giving them what they want.
But that's another thread altogether. Just don't even THINK about having the mayor (or any other politican) appoint these folks. (Although I s'pose some of them at high levels are politically appointed? Don't know details here. Maybe I'm letting my disgust at Rudy's insanity boil over here.) Thoughts?
All the attempts to insulate agencies from "politics" ie. the MTA, the NYC Board of Education, the Health and Hospitals Corporation, CUNY -- failed. All the negatives of politics are still there: inefficiency, favoritism, shortsightedness. But the one positive -- acountability -- is gone. Everyone blames everyone else for decisions that, in reality, are made by the Governor (MTA) or Mayor (HHC).
The "independent" boards are not independent at all when it comes to getting things done. They are only independent when it comes to stonewalling, if the public has replaced the elected official that appointed them with a different one and their terms are not up.
[All the attempts to insulate agencies from "politics" ie. the MTA, the NYC Board of Education, the Health and Hospitals Corporation, CUNY -- failed. All the negatives of politics are still there: inefficiency, favoritism, shortsightedness. But the one positive -- acountability -- is gone. Everyone blames everyone else for decisions that, in reality, are made by the Governor (MTA) or Mayor (HHC).]
Agreed. It makes no sense to have an agency controlled by an elected official who doesn't answer to the City's voters, and agencies that are balkanized, such as the Board of Education, are even worse.
But that was the TRUE point of it all! To protect the elected politicians from blame!
Real Good. Another thing for Rudy to control!
For better or worse, someone would be ACCOUNTABLE.
Please feel to respond to my opinion ASAP. I think Rudy should have control of the MTA. Heres why. When he took over the city from Dinkins, his three targets were the MTA, One Police Plaza and the NYC Public School system. There was a lot of "dead wood" shaken from the top of NYPD and reassigned to street service. You can call that union busting or taking away gold bricks but the fact is NYPD is a law enforcement agency. The job starts on the streets and is the existance of Police Plaza. The Sheriff Department of the town of Walkill, NY is comprised of 5 police and one supervisor, who was responsible for impounding the 6398 transfer to TMNY. Big crime indeed for a town of a small population but not even a percent of supervision found in a big government office. Although I am up in the air about the NYC Public School system, let me return to Rudy. When he took over after the shakedown of NYPD and the schools, he started beating on the MTA. A well deserved beating to Jay Street but not enough. He cut $112 million a year in city funding, the school bus pass fight and took the Transit Police Department, the fourth biggest police department in the nation under his control. Wonder why he never made it above the first floor at 370 Jay Street. It is because the MTA is Pataki's baby. Pataki doen't care for city slickers, they didn't carry him to Albany. LIRR and Metro-North riders did. He and Rudy fought early and now Rudy doesn't fight the MTA, something he in my opinion really should battle. You can say that Dinkins instituted "safe-city, safe streets" and Rudy isn't responsible but that program would demand $$$ from the feds to fund the hiring of new police to go to the streets. I like to see light duty jobs for those who are injured on the job but how many of the senior personel at Police Plaza were capable or needed to perform non administrative funtions. I think everyone here knows that you don't need 5200 managers to run a transportation organization employing almost as many train service personel. Why was one zone trainmaster replaced by 5 superintendants each? Because NO ONE IS ACCOUNTABLE! I think we would not have OPTO and other safety related cutbacks here as cutting the paychecks of senior management in half and firing the other half would create a balanced budget we can all live with. If you don't want to write Pataki to complain about the shoddy service his Inspector General he appointed is doing to save face to the taxpayers of the state of NY, don't complain when a T/O or Conductor complains about not getting a deserved raise or cost of living adjustment.
Perfect example of how politicians are scum.
Rudy, a supposed man of integrity has given up the noble
quest of reforming the MTA and wresting control of it from
disinterested out of town politicans.
He did great things at the police department, the board of
education, and with welfare. He had stated early on that
the MTA was one of his goals.
Like any good political player, Rudy knows that a chief
executive can only get one or maybe two major policy
changes done in a year. Clinton forgot this, and that's
why during the first year of his first term he tried to
accomplish so much, and yet accomplished so little.
P.D. was first and most important, then education. But by
then a new Governor had rolled into town. It was no longer
politically expedient to burn the MTA, a state agency now
under the control of King George Pataki the 1st. It was OK
to demonize the waste, fraud and mismanagement before
under Cuomo, a Democrat, but God no, not to a fellow
Republican. Especially when Rudy was busy trying to
rebuild bridges after endorsing Cuomo for re-election.
Possibly Rudy's only real mistake politically to date.
So after that, I lost what little respect I had for the
mayor. Respect for his accomplishments, yes. Respect for
him personally, no. Vote for Hillary? NEVER!
Sometimes, you have to choose between the lesser of two
evils. I don't have to like the guy, he just needs to do
the job. And this guy get's things done. So I hold my nose
and pull the lever.
(Rudy vs. Hillary) You can always just vote no, can't you?
Good one. I may vote for a third party candidate. But that really is just a waste of a vote. Any wonder that people stay home from the polls?
It might well be that the mayor was willing to bring about reforms at the police department and the board of education because he _could_. The MTA is a different story, being subject to much less mayoral control, so it could be that he didn't try to do much because it would be hopeless.
[It might well be that the mayor was willing to bring about reforms at the police department and the board of education because he _could_. The MTA is a different story, being subject to much less mayoral control, so it could be that he didn't try to do much because it would be hopeless.]
He does have control of the police department, even though the sleezy union tried to do an end run around him with the sleezy bought and paid for state legislature, but he has little control over the Board of Education--what he achieved there he did by jawboning, and that wouldn't have worked with the MTA, because unlike the BOE it's a vehicle for Pataki's pork.
Perhaps the Mayor is satisfied with the MTA. At this point, most people are. The fare discounts far outweight the sting of the fare increase years ago -- the Mayor even said a fare increase in the future would be fair. On time performance has been OK. Ridership is up, subsidies are down.
The biggest problems are things Rudy has not focued on. One is the lack of additional capital projects, including the Manhattan Bridge, which may or may not be Rudy's own responsibility, depnding on who you ask. And the biggest ripoff is what the MTA pays for capital projects, not what it pays for operations. Rudy did take away city capital funding from the TA, demanding that it be used for an airport connection.
The other problem has been the huge increase in MTA debt, with makes any discussion of finishing the 2nd Avenue subway or anything else in the future a fantasy. But for Rudy to complain about that would be the pot calling the kettle black.
[The other problem has been the huge increase in MTA debt, with makes any discussion of finishing the 2nd Avenue subway or anything else in the future a fantasy. But for Rudy to complain about that would be the pot calling the kettle black.]
And yet we built the original IRT in four years, and the entire sytem in 40.
If we can't pay for a single line, there's something terribly wrong with our priorities and our management.
The reason we can't build anything anymore is called "labour laws". Ever since wage slavery went out a fashion nothing has gotten done. Stuipd Unions*!
*(Just kidding)
[The reason we can't build anything anymore is called "labour laws". Ever since wage slavery went out a fashion nothing has gotten done. Stuipd Unions*!]
Unions or no, private enterprise can still build things in a fraction of the time and at a fraction of the cost of government. The figure I've seen says that it costs New York State *three times* as much to build something as private enterprise. When you're talking a $10 billion project like a subway, that's a lot of moolah--$6.6 billion, to be exact . . .
True enough, but back in the day everything was much faster and much cheeper. Still we must keep in mind that most projects back in the day were private enterprize and it was private enterprize free from regulation so again I agree with you. However if you look at private freight railroads today it takes them forever to do any little bit of construction compared with the rate of construction 70 years ago.
[However if you look at private freight railroads today it takes them forever to do any little bit of construction compared with the rate of construction 70 years ago.]
I'm not sure why that is. Maybe it just doesn't matter to them.
It's generally agreed though that construction was particularly efficient in the 30's, because there was such an oversupply of workers that a guy knew he'd be canned for the slightest inefficiency.
Here's another thought: the IRT was built in four years with something over 7000 workers, while today's New York still pays several hundred thousand people to do nothing. Am I the only one who thinks there's something wrong with this picture?
(It costs the government three times as much to build things as the private sector -- like the Second Avenue Subway).
Has anyone proposed building the Second Avenue Subway using Civil Servants? It would be built by the private sector. The private sector is efficient alright -- efficient at fleecing the government. Think about that when considering privitization.
[(It costs the government three times as much to build things as the private sector -- like the Second Avenue Subway).
Has anyone proposed building the Second Avenue Subway using Civil Servants? It would be built by the private sector. The private sector is efficient alright -- efficient at fleecing the government. Think about that when considering privitization.]
Private enterprise fleeces government only because government lets it. For example, unless things have changed, corrupt state law specifically prohibits government from employing a general contractor--which if you've ever built even a modest project you know is almost inconceivably costly in terms of time and money.
The businesses I know go out of their way when building new facilties to control costs. They jawbone the contractors and withhold money as necessary when construction lags. By way of contrast, the government construction projects I come across are usually sitting there with nothing happening--look at the Manhattan Bridge. And the small projects the MTA does in subway stations are a joke, usually a whole bunch of people milling around while almost nothing happens. That's just *not* the way it was in the private companies I've worked for! The few companies I've worked at where people didn't work hard simply went out of business, because profit margins in most businesses are actually quite low, and a relatively small problem with efficiency leads to losses.
Donald Trump's quick fix for the Wollman skating rink is I think a pretty fair illustration of the contrast between government bumbling and private efficiency.
The PBA isn't sleezy.
Aha. Watch what you say on this site, you never know who is posting.
Perhaps sleazy isn't the word, but Josh is right about certain PBA actions that bother people. Like many public sector workers, relative to the rest of us the Police are getting ripped off in some ways (low pay) but have deals which are just unfair to those of us who pay the bills (retirement in your early 50s with a full pay disability pension, whether you're diabled or not).
Moreover, again like other public sector workers, both pay and work assignments depend primarily on seniority. As a result, the people who do the most work, (ie. those patrolling poor, high crime neighborhoods) get paid the least, while those in cream puff jobs (sitting at a desk, or in a car on the south shore of Staten Island) get the big bucks.
Now, Rudy's idea is to trade one set of unfairnesses for another, and I agree with it. But the PBA had a better idea -- pay off our wonderful legislators to get more for less, instead of more for more. That makes a lot of people mad at the PBA, including those who are not against higher wages per se.
Why don't you ride with a cop some night. They have to deal with all of society's filth, heartbreak and good ole fashioned EVIL on a daily basis. They deserve to retire after 20 years, No I'm not a knee jerk pro cop the police have a LOT of fence mending to do with the minority community but walk a few steps in a cop's shoes before you say he (she) didn't earn that pension.
You and Josh Hill talk about the PBA paying off the state legislators. I assume you're talking about the PERB legislation which the state Legislator first overturned the governor's vetoe and then Rudy used his influence blackmail against judges to rule it was unconstitutional, against home rule. Then the PBA rewrote it, the Governor signed it and Rudy is really pissed. The fact of the matter is PERB is the only fair arbitration. It is an impartial state arbitration as opposed to the present city-run and city-paid arbitration. If in private industry there was a contract dispute and the company said, "let our arbitration dept. settle it" there would be an uproar. And the city's excuse that they can't afford more, I say tough!! I can't tell the bank holding my mortgage "I want a decrease because I cannot afford the payments!!! The truth is NYC cops are grossly underpaid. We are one of the lowest paid urban police departments in the country and don't even talk about comparing or pay with the suberbs such as Nassau or Suffolk!!! Although I won't knock transit as I'm all for you and will support your strike I also know that a bus driver with a good pick can make more than me, a police supervisor, who must have at least 2 years of college!! Parity is a joke too. We work hard for 8 1/2 hours, even on desk jobs or in Staten Island!! We do not sleep all day in a firehouse getting paid for it. And although I'm not a member anymore since I got promoted to sergeant- I must say The PBA is NOT sleezy!!!
And now to keep it on topic-remember there are alot of cops patrolling the subway!!!
(Parity with Nassau-Suffolk).
The thought of parity with Nassau County scares me. Nassau County has a $300 million dollar budget deficit. But it only has 1/5 the population of New York City, so that is the equivalent of a $1.5 billion dollar deficit here. But Nassau County only accounts for one-third of the local government within its borders, so it is really the equivalent of a $4.5 billion dollar deficit in NYC. That's what parity with Nassau means to me. Since we are not an affluent suburb, we could probably get away with that for about six months before its 1974 all over again.
As I said, the pay the police get is not good, especially for those with the toughest jobs, but public sector unions have traditionally sacrificed pay, especially for new recruits, in exchange for other things. I don't think that's a good idea.
AKA comparison with other unions -- I did notice that sick days used by uniformed police officers are lower than by the fire department, the corrections department, the sanitation department, and non-uniformed employees of the police departement. I would say its fair to break parity and give the police a higher raise than the other unions on that basis, but "union solidarity" works against it.
[You and Josh Hill talk about the PBA paying off the state legislators. I assume you're talking about the PERB legislation which the state Legislator first overturned the governor's vetoe and then Rudy used his influence blackmail against judges to rule it was unconstitutional, against home rule. Then the PBA rewrote it, the Governor signed it and Rudy is really pissed. The fact of the matter is PERB is the only fair arbitration. It is an impartial state arbitration as opposed to the present city-run and city-paid arbitration. If in private industry there was a contract dispute and the company said, "let our arbitration dept. settle it" there would be an uproar. And the city's excuse that they can't afford more, I say tough!! I can't tell the bank holding my mortgage "I want a decrease because I cannot afford the payments!!! The truth is NYC cops are grossly underpaid. We are one of the lowest paid urban police departments in the country and don't even talk about comparing or pay with the suberbs such as Nassau or Suffolk!!! Although I won't knock transit as I'm all for you and will support your strike I also know that a bus driver with a good pick can make more than me, a police supervisor, who must have at least 2 years of college!! Parity is a joke too. We work hard for 8 1/2 hours, even on desk jobs or in Staten Island!! We do not sleep all day in a firehouse getting paid for it. And although I'm not a member anymore since I got promoted to sergeant- I must say The PBA is NOT sleezy!!!
And now to keep it on topic-remember there are alot of cops patrolling the subway!!!]
The City has a right to negotiate with its own workers, because the City pays the bills. Having our bought and paid for state legislature, which on the rare occasions it answers to voters at all rather than campaign contributors answers to upstate voters rather than City residents do an end run around the City is pretty low in my book.
The simple truth is that every projection shows we're headed for huge deficits, and we're in a boom that can't last forever. The City doesn't have the money to pay anyone significantly more than they're getting now.
(The city doesn't have the money to pay more than it is now).
Can't say the data supports that. Having been significantly higher as far back as the data goes, the total pay of local government employees working in NYC, as a percentage of total earnings in the city, hit the national average in 1997. (Bureau of Economic Analysis, Local Area Personal Income). This despite the fact that (for historical reasons) transit and higher education are counted as "local" government in NYC, but state government elsewhere.
1998 BEA data won't be out until next June, but given what we know about tax receipts and employment, the boom has accelerated since then, and city workers have fallen behind the private sector. How good a measure is this? The whole issue of the city having trouble recruiting qualified staff emerged post-1997.
A recession will occur sooner or later, reducing the real value of labor and allowing the city to attract qualified applicants at lower relative pay. But that's someday, not today. I think the city should agree to substantial raises with categories of workers that have made major productivity gains, but only in short term (1-2 year) contracts. If a recession hits, it can slow down the wage gains then.
[Can't say the data supports that. Having been significantly higher as far back as the data goes, the total pay of local government employees working in NYC, as a percentage of total earnings in the city, hit the national average in 1997. (Bureau of Economic Analysis, Local Area Personal Income). This despite the fact that (for historical reasons) transit and higher education are counted as "local" government in NYC, but state government elsewhere.
1998 BEA data won't be out until next June, but given what we know about tax receipts and employment, the boom has accelerated since then, and city workers have fallen behind the private sector. How good a measure is this? The whole issue of the city having trouble recruiting qualified staff emerged post-1997.
A recession will occur sooner or later, reducing the real value of labor and allowing the city to attract qualified applicants at lower relative pay. But that's someday, not today. I think the city should agree to substantial raises with categories of workers that have made major productivity gains, but only in short term (1-2 year) contracts. If a recession hits, it can slow down the wage gains then.]
But the presupposition here is that because the City has hit national averages, it can afford the money. Unless the deficit projections I'm always hearing about aren't for real, it doesn't--and what pay raises it does offer should go to areas in which there are severe shortages of qualified applicants, such as teachers and principals, rather than to areas that have many, or to other areas that desperately need funds, like school maintenance and the Second Avenue subway, or better yet to tax reductions, which might actually bring new income to the City by making it less unattractive to business and the middle class.
First of all, we've had tax reductions, and if Rudy gets his way, we'll have a few more. At that point, if our taxes remain moderately high, it will be for two reasons:
1) High Medicaid spending.
2) Federal funding policies intended to relocate business from the affluent northeast to the "backward" Sunbelt.
Second of all, the budget deficits are or are not real, depending on how you look at it. The Mayor has adopted the practice of assuming a moderate recession in next year's budget. If it doesn't happnen, you get a surplus. If it does happen, you break even of have just moderate cutbacks. On the other hand, he assumes no wage increases, and that isn't real either.
If you assume a real change has taken place in the city, and that its on its way to becomming an average place in terms of economic activity and attractiveness to people with resources, we have a lot of catch up growth to do.
[First of all, we've had tax reductions, and if Rudy gets his way, we'll have a few more. At that point, if our taxes remain moderately high, it will be for two reasons:
1) High Medicaid spending.
2) Federal funding policies intended to relocate business from the affluent northeast to the "backward" Sunbelt.
Second of all, the budget deficits are or are not real, depending on how you look at it. The Mayor has adopted the practice of assuming a moderate recession in next year's budget. If it doesn't happnen, you get a surplus. If it does happen, you break even of have just moderate cutbacks. On the other hand, he assumes no wage increases, and that isn't real either.
If you assume a real change has taken place in the city, and that its on its way to becomming an average place in terms of economic activity and attractiveness to people with resources, we have a lot of catch up growth to do.]
An interesting point, as usual. Still, I'm concerned by our slow rate of growth relative to the rest of the country, by the fact that the Internet has made Wall Street, our cash cow, obsolescent, and by the fact that we haven't delivered on many of the things that businesses ask for in the aggregate (since individually businessmen are self-serving).
We can't reverse Federal policies that favor less populated areas, since that inequity is built into the constitution, but we can do something about our e ccessive Medicaid spending. I'm not sure how our
ta es compare to other regions' (sorry about the missing letter, my keyboard just went on the blink), but it seems to me that our sales ta es are sky high and our city/state income ta es are too. And are you including hidden ta es and subsidies? It seems to me there's a surcharge or e cise on just about everything.
Oh well, guess I'll have to cut this short until I can buy a new keyboard . . .
Don't swallow what people tell you whole. Anything put out by an advocacy organization is misleading at best, fabricated at worst. State and local taxes in NYC, as a share of personal income, were 40 percent above the national average in FY 94, and 25 percent above average in FY 97. They probably have not gone down much since, but they are lower in other parts of the state that are favored at the city's expense.
Taxes are higher, but not double or triple, as the anti-tax advocates say.
And don't swallow that nonsense about growing at the national rate, either. If NYC's employment had increased at the national rate since 1960, it would have doubled from today's level. You can't do that in a confined space -- most national growth takes place in expanding and developing areas -- so matching the national rate is not a fair measure of success. Just think about how much physical development is required just to replace obsolete and deteriorated stock and improve the quality of life? Average square feet per office worker 1960 = 150 s.f., 1997 = 330 s.f.
[Don't swallow what people tell you whole. Anything put out by an advocacy organization is misleading at best, fabricated at worst. State and local taxes in NYC, as a share of personal income, were 40 percent above the national average in FY 94, and 25 percent above average in FY 97. They probably have not gone down much since, but they are lower in other parts of the state that are favored at the city's expense.
Taxes are higher, but not double or triple, as the anti-tax advocates say.]
There's another thing too. Relative state and local tax burden is usually a minor factor when a business decides on a location for a new facility or decides whether to move an existing facility to a new location. For most businesses it ranks with such things as utility costs and workers' compensation rates. Real estate costs, infrastructure quality and the availability of labor are much more important factors, while relative labor cost is *by far* the most significant one. Taxes just don't matter that much in the grand scheme of things.
[There's another thing too. Relative state and local tax burden is usually a minor factor when a business decides on a location for a new facility or decides whether to move an existing facility to a new location. For most businesses it ranks with such things as utility costs and workers' compensation rates. Real estate costs, infrastructure quality and the availability of labor are much more important factors, while relative labor cost is *by far* the most significant one. Taxes just don't matter that much in the grand scheme of things.]
But they do affect the cost of labor and everything else. It's a given that you have to pay even a medium level employee more in New York City than elsewhere, and high taxes are part of that. And it's the middle and high level and unionized emloyees that are a killer for businesses thinking of relocating to New York, because we have a huge supply of unskilled immigrant labor that's wiling to work for less than nothing.
[It's a given that you have to pay even a medium level employee more in New York City than elsewhere, and high taxes are part of that. And it's the middle and high level and unionized emloyees that are a killer for businesses thinking of relocating to New York, because we have a huge supply of unskilled immigrant labor that's wiling to work for less than nothing.]
Here's another example of expectations not quite matching reality. Some recent analyses have shown that salary levels in NYC are not dramatically higher than elsewhere in the country. One recent analysis (it might have been from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, I'm not sure however) showed that average NYC salaries were only 18% higher than those in Dallas, generally thought of as being a "cheap" city. The main reason why NYC has so many very highly paid people is that it has a concentration of the types of jobs that pay a lot regardless of location. It simply isn't true that a job at any particular place on the pay spectrum pays far more in NYC than elsewhere. In fact, there's some evidence that lower-skilled jobs pay *less* in NYC than in most other places - a factor attributable, no doubt, to the plentiful supply of immigrant labor you mentioned.
[Here's another example of expectations not quite matching reality. Some recent analyses have shown that salary levels in NYC are not dramatically higher than elsewhere in the country. One recent analysis (it might have been from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, I'm not sure however) showed that average NYC salaries were only 18% higher than those in Dallas, generally thought of as being a "cheap" city. The main reason why NYC has so many very highly paid people is that it has a concentration of the types of jobs that pay a lot regardless of location. It simply isn't true that a job at any particular place on the pay spectrum pays far more in NYC than elsewhere. In fact, there's some evidence that lower-skilled jobs pay *less* in NYC than in most other places - a factor attributable, no doubt, to the plentiful supply of immigrant labor you mentioned.]
Interesting. My own view is undoubtedly slanted to middle/upper middle class occupations, where it's a given that you earn more in the City.
Another consideration is that the low level employees in the City are frequently sullen and incompetent. Just compare the person at the checkout counter in a NYC supermarket with her counterpart in the suburbs, who smiles, works quickly, doesn't talk to her friends instead of taking care of customers, and shuts down her line *before* she runs out of cash.
We really seem to have a list of almosts now--taxes almost as low, salaries almost as low. It seems to me that if we made a real push, the region could be more than almost--it could be stunningly competitive again.
(Stunningly competitive)
To what end? You realize that thanks to its large social service burden and the redistribution of tax revenues to other places, NYC is already providing LESS in the way of public services that most places. Its public employees earn LESS than those elsewhere in the region. Not a problem if you are wealthy enough to live in Manhattan, send your kids to private schools, etc. What is remarkable, however, is just how little of the benefits of this boom have accured to the majority of city (not suburban) residents.
Do you know that property tax revenues are going down, when adjusted for inflation? So much has been given away -- for 15 to 25 years -- that even as property values soar, less money is collected for public services.
The truth is that NYC's tax and regulatory burden was always exaggerated. In the rest of the country, you actually have to pay unemployment insurance taxes, the minimum wage, and FICA. Not here, it seems. Yes there are few rules, but they are actually enforced, and people actually pay taxes. As unreasonable taxes are repealed, the tax burden falls, and the majority of New Yorkers see no benefit, people will begin to ask "what about the rest of us."
[(Stunningly competitive)
To what end? You realize that thanks to its large social service burden and the redistribution of tax revenues to other places, NYC is already providing LESS in the way of public services that most places. Its public employees earn LESS than those elsewhere in the region. Not a problem if you are wealthy enough to live in Manhattan, send your kids to private schools, etc. What is remarkable, however, is just how little of the benefits of this boom have accured to the majority of city (not suburban) residents.
Do you know that property tax revenues are going down, when adjusted for inflation? So much has been given away -- for 15 to 25 years -- that even as property values soar, less money is collected for public services.
The truth is that NYC's tax and regulatory burden was always exaggerated. In the rest of the country, you actually have to pay unemployment insurance taxes, the minimum wage, and FICA. Not here, it seems. Yes there are few rules, but they are actually enforced, and people actually pay taxes. As unreasonable taxes are repealed, the tax burden falls, and the majority of New Yorkers see no benefit, people will begin to ask "what about the rest of us."]
To what end?
Because jobs lift people out of poverty, while social services perpetuate it.
Because isolated poverty of the sort that occurs when the middle class leave is far harder for people to break out of.
Because we have a disproportionate share of the nation's poor, and, as you said, other regions take revenue out of the area rather than putting it in. Poverty is a national responsibility. To the extent that the City provides excessively generous services, it becomes a magnet for poor people, and moves in the direction of the shell cities like Detroit or Washington. To the extent that it depends on state or federal table scraps, it becomes more vulnerable to skimming.
Because with new growth the City would become more influential in Albany and at the Federal level, and could lobby for a better deal.
Because local taxes are a zero sum game. They don't generate revenue for a given region, they just divert it. But business is not a zero sum game--it generates real revenue, and some of that revenue gets taxed at the new, lower rates. There's a U curve involved as far as revenue is concerned, and a few years ago we tested the high end of it, got to the point where for every dollar we increased taxes revenue actually went down. But as far as I know, we're still not at the optimum point.
Because we have to compete with those suburbs for jobs and prosperous residents.
Because it's not fair to someone to tax him more or give him less because of who he lives in proximity to.
Because many people would rather work 20 hour days in sweatshops than go on welfare. Check out current immigrant groups, and see what happens to their children as opposed to the children of the people who succumb to the perverse incentives of the dole.
Because we have hundreds of thousands of people here getting paid to do *nothing* while our schools fall apart. I can't think of anything more corrosive, brutal, or senseless.
Because ultimately, a prosperous, healthy City can do *more* for people who need help--people with jobs who can benefit from the good schools and other services that a prosperous locality can provide.
We as a city can't single handedly reduce the growing gulf between poor and wealthy, but we can do a *far* better job of helping the poor. Remember when City College was the free "Harvard of the Working Class"? Now it's a pay-your-own-way phony degree mill with graduates who can't read or write. I don't think there's a better illustration of the difference between our current social programs and those of a few years back; take your pick.
[Don't swallow what people tell you whole. Anything put out by an advocacy organization is misleading at best, fabricated at worst. State and local taxes in NYC, as a share of personal income, were 40 percent above the national average in FY 94, and 25 percent above average in FY 97. They probably have not gone down much since, but they are lower in other parts of the state that are favored at the city's expense.
Taxes are higher, but not double or triple, as the anti-tax advocates say.]
I never thought they were anything like that, but even 25% is a source of concern, particularly given that the comparison is to the national average, not the tax rate in the most competitive regions.
[And don't swallow that nonsense about growing at the national rate, either. If NYC's employment had increased at the national rate since 1960, it would have doubled from today's level. You can't do that in a confined space -- most national growth takes place in expanding and developing areas -- so matching the national rate is not a fair measure of success. Just think about how much physical development is required just to replace obsolete and deteriorated stock and improve the quality of life? Average square feet per office worker 1960 = 150 s.f., 1997 = 330 s.f.]
That's something I don't completely buy. No one is going to locate a huge plant here, or a bank of telephones which could be built more cheaply where land is plentiful. But people have been saying there's no room to expand here for 150 years. New York City has traditionally grown up, and there are areas in Manhattan in which that's still possible--not to mention the fact that the boros, which could hold larger plants, are underutilized.
As far as I can tell, it all comes back to transportation, schools, rent control, the tax burden, and mafia backed unions that drives up the cost of construction. If we lowered taxes to competitive levels, spent a billion or so a year improving turning our transportation network into a convenience rather than a liability, established schools that middle class residents could send their children to, the region would become much more competitive.
But we've lost our drive and imagination. Far from building the Eerie Canal or Central Park, we can't even build a Second Avenue subway, and when somebody suggests building something like a highway or the world's tallest building, everybody screams bloody murder. We're preoccupied with the poor, but we've forgotten that it's jobs, rather than cutesy programs, that lift people out of poverty.
What would happen if we built a high speed transit line on West Street? Businesses and residential customers would flock to an underdeveloped area of Manhattan--who wants to live or work in Jersey City? And I can think of numerous other examples.
What happened to the City is that we became so obsessed with the poor and so caught up in poverty politics that we forgot we had to make the City a decent, competitive place for business and the middle/lower middle class. Middle class people left for the suburbs in droves because they couldn't get their snow removed or send their kids to a safe school--it was a sudden and massive exodus of Mosaic proportions--and wealthier people moved to Connecticut and New Jersey the moment they were hit by the income tax, to be followed by a continued trickle out as crime rose and the quality of life went down.
The only growth businesses here for a long time were welfare, drugs, crime and homelessness, and it's only since Giuliani, and to lesser extent Koch, reversed some of those policies that the City has become, if not fully competitive with the rest of the country, at least partially so.
(Too obsessed with the poor).
New York does very little for the poor. It provides extensive spending for the liberals who provide "services" for the poor. As for the middle class, just try to propose high rise, dense development within a stones throw of neighborhood that considers itself middle class.
Before the telephone and the automobile, people would pay five times a much to be in NYC, so you could afford dense development that is much more expensive to build. Now, if the price goes high enough, people in businesses move to cheap, low rise buildings on cheap land on the outskirts of Dallas.
You have to look at what acutally happens. You could build a high rise building in Brooklyn today and pay virtually no taxes on the improvmenet -- in fact the city will subsidize any leases you sign.
[New York does very little for the poor. It provides extensive spending for the liberals who provide "services" for the poor.]
Yep. Though I don't think it's just the liberals who provide the services--it's everybody who has his hand in the pot. As I've said before, if we just took the money we spend on social services and just gave it to the poor people, we wouldn't have poor people.
[As for the middle class, just try to propose high rise, dense development within a stones throw of neighborhood that considers itself middle class.]
Understandable. When I was younger I used to get upset at people who opposed low income housing and such near their neighborhoods. Boy, was I wrong! You can't expect middle class people to live with the effects of crime and poverty--they'll simply move, and take the crime and poverty with them. I was thinking from the perspective of a limousine liberal, someone who never had to watch his neighborhood go downhill or attend a school where the kids get shaken down.
[Before the telephone and the automobile, people would pay five times a much to be in NYC, so you could afford dense development that is much more expensive to build. Now, if the price goes high enough, people in businesses move to cheap, low rise buildings on cheap land on the outskirts of Dallas.]
That's as it should be, if it makes economic sense. Insofar as the incremental rise in rents as one approaches the center of the City is due to increased desireability or the cost of building, there's no reason a business should locate there unless there's some kind of offsetting factor.
My problem is with the fact that this is no longer a free market economic decision, it's a government imposed one.
[You have to look at what acutally happens. You could build a high rise building in Brooklyn today and pay virtually no taxes on the improvmenet -- in fact the city will subsidize any leases you sign.]
But there are still all sorts of hidden taxes, the bad schools that make it too expensive for middle class people to live here, the bad transportation network, unions that make office construction uneconomical.
So--cut taxes to make the City and State truly competitive, not just almost so--and that includes the hidden taxes and subsidies, like the one that makes it twice as expensive for a business to have a phone line as an individual, or the $400/month tax on medical insurance. Institute vouchers--wow, I cringe at that one--so that middle class people can afford to send their kids to school. Upgrade our transit system to make it a convenience and an asset, rather than a hellhole. Eliminate rent control to make the most of our housing stock, and come up with some kind of automatic mortgage/reloan gimmick to let people move around quickly while retaining tax advantages and building equity. Get the Mafia out of construction. As employer of last resort, use the hundreds of thousands of people we pay to do nothing as an asset--to clean and fix things, to give us the sort of infrastructure that will make people say "wow, I wish I lived there!" And work out some kind of mutually beneficial deal with our neighbors so that the City can grow beyond its borders, while the depressed industrial areas of upstate New York and New Jersey regain their luster . . .
[Perfect example of how politicians are scum.
Rudy, a supposed man of integrity has given up the noble
quest of reforming the MTA and wresting control of it from
disinterested out of town politicans.]
When Giuliani took on the mildly sleezy, mediocre Pataki, the Republican Party went ape. Never mind that Giuliani is one of the best mayors we've ever had, one of the few politicians who actually makes things better rather than just yapping about them, apart from his questionable record on civil liberties almost a model of what the Republican party should be--he betrayed a crony to the opposition, and Pataki--this is the level of the guy--has been punishing the City ever since.
In a way, the City got what it deserved by behaving irresponsibly with its own finances; it gave up control of so much to corrupt and unaccountable upstate politicians in return for some table scraps.
Seen in that context, it's amazing that Giuliani has done what he has, and understandable that he had to reach an accomodation. He just doesn't have the power.
A perfect example of how the political system takes the good guys, and forces them to get in bed with the bad.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING!!!
Thank's Sarge.
As much as I gripe about the Manhattan Bridge, there really a lot to be thankful for. Just about everything is better than it was 40 of 50 years ago, and I have a spreadsheet full of data on a variety of subjects that I whip out this time of year to prove it.
Even the subway is better than 20 years ago.
Yeah, but not better then 30 yrs ago when we had R1-10's, Standards, "Q" cars (OK, 30 yrs & 2 mos. for "Q" cars!), Low V's in the in the Bronx, etc.By the way, I know its off topic but does anyone know what time the parade starts and what cross street on CPW? Is it true its the least crowded along Central Park West? I'm planning on taking my 3yr old there while Mom is preparing the turkey. We'll probably go from Mineola Station. I know I should know all that being a cop but I don't!
I think it starts right at the Museum of Natural History.
can you catch a railfan window on the franklin shuttle ???
the r38 i suppose right ??????????
salaamallah@yahoo.com thank you !!!
No, it is strictly Hippos (aka R-68).
Doug aka BMTman
With the full-width cabs facing out.
Bummer.
subway cars without railfan windows "hippos"!!!
i could not agree more from now on a non rail fan window subway car will forever be called ""HIPPOS"" !!!!!!!
Only the R-68 is called that! The R-44, 46, 62 and 110 ARE NOT HIPPOS!! I don't consider the R-68 a hippo, but others do so I'll respect that for now.
sorry but hippos and rinos and bears are in los angeles atlanta san francisco light rail cars subway cars no railfan windows!!!! sorry !!!
Wasn't that a line in the Wizard of Oz??
Hippos and Rhinos and Bears, Oh my!!!
Lions and Tigers and Bears. Oh my!!!
"I'll get you, dearie, and your little dog, too!!"
The Franklin Shuttle is served by the R68. No windows. Sorry.
Just back from a week in Paris, and after significant use of the Metropolitain system spanning most of the city, here are my observations and comparisons to our system in New York. Overall I found the system very smooth and quick, although the stations are amazingly dirty.
1) I rode the system at all times and I never had to wait more than 10 minutes for a train. Usually one pulled in within 3 minutes. Edge: Paris.
2) No express trains. I think actually New York's system is the only one with a 4-track layout allowing express trains? In Paris the stations are very close together, so I really missed the express lines when going a good distance. Edge: New York.
3) In Paris the trains rarely stopped in the tunnels. In New York, they frequently do. Edge: Paris.
4) Paris trains require you to push a button or swing a lever to make the doors open. Not sure why this is. They do close automatically. The doors unluck a few seconds before the train comes to a stop, so you can get a big running start if you chose. Sometimes it was hard to reach the lever if the train was crowded. Edge: NY
5) Seat layout on Paris trains would never work in New York. More emphasis on providing extra seats, less standing room. All seats face each other in pairs, similar to Metro north layout, but closer together, so lots of knee knocking. Standing areas contain fold-down chairs which you're asked not to use when the train is crowded. This was cheerfully ignored. Edge: NY
6) Paris Metro stations have vending machines. New York stations have newstands. Edge: NY
7) Paris cars are mostly quite clean. Edge: Paris
8) Paris stations are unbelievably filthy. Maybe the cleanup workers were on strike? I saw huge piles of trash and overflowing garbage cans everywhere. Rotten fruit, newspapers, used ticket stubs, etc. Disgusting. Edge: NY
9) Machines similar to MVM sell tickets. Multilingual, easy to use. Edge: tie.
10) Turnstiles have annoying swinging doors to prevent turnstile jumping. Sometimes these doors are pushed manually, sometimes you have to wait for them to swing open. But next to them is an exit door which can be held open to let people in for free. No Iron Maidens anywhere. Edge: NY.
11) Stations have gigantic advertising posters which overwhelm you. I hated them. Edge: NY.
12) New York is already easier to navigate due to the grid system. Paris lines go in a circle around the city, so there is no uptown/downtown system. Instead you find the line's terminus and follow signs for it. The maps are a bit hard to read due to the use of colors that are too similar - multiple different shades of purple, for example. Also there is an RER commuter line, which is very expensive but fast. Edge: NY.
13) Abandoned stations - I saw one in between Babylon and Mabilon stops. Anyone know anything about it?
14) Metro stops have really nice designs on the outside, done by a famous designer I believe. They look like something from Alien. Edge: Paris.
15) All stations are round tunnels, which would seem to indicate that they are all bored. I didn't see any boxy New York-style cut-and-cover stations. Most stations have the same boring white tile. Some interesting variations. One station had a letter or number on each tile, which seemed to contain various messages. My french is not good though, so I couldn't decipher them. Another station was done up to look like a station in Cario - complete with Egyption-style music piped through the loudspeakers. I prefer New York's variety, though. Edge: NY
16) Fare - About $2/ride. There is an unlimited weekly pass but its Monday-Sunday which didn't work for me. New York has better 1, 7 and 30 days passes. You get a discount if you pay 10 tickets. There is nothing like a Metrocard. All passes are tiny little annoying tickets which get stamped when you use them. You have to save them, since sometimes you need them for transfers. Edge: NY
17) All trains have helpful line maps prominently displayed. Similar to what the number 6 and 7 trains have in NY. i believe this would be impossible to do on the other NY trains since they switch lines. Edge: Paris.
18) Paris stations have more seats. Individual airport style chairs lined against the wall. Edge: Paris
19) Paris stations are about half the size of those in NY. Only 5 cars per train. No way to switch from one car to another that I could see. Edge: NY
20) No station announcements whatsoever. If you're blind, I guess you're out of luck. Edge: NY
21) Paris system shuts down at about midnight. Big edge to NY.
22) Token booth employees very helpful. Most spoke some degree of English. Edge: Paris.
Thats all for now. Overall I still prefer NY. Who else has been to Paris? Agree with me?
The Paris Metro is pretty different from NYC's. It's closer to the London Underground than to anything in the U.S.
2) No express trains. I think actually New York's system is the only one with a 4-track layout allowing express trains? In Paris the stations are very close together, so I really missed the express lines when going a good distance. Edge: New York.
This is true for almost every other transit system in the world! There are a few examples of express or "fast trains" elsewhere, a number of which in London, but New York pioneered it. Not sure whose elevated system had three tracks first, NY or Chicago, though... that was the forerunner of the true express system.
3) In Paris the trains rarely stopped in the tunnels. In New York, they frequently do. Edge: Paris.
This is a function of the simplicity of the Paris system vs. the complexity of NY. In NY you have various lines sharing tracks, some express, some local, all merging and diverging at particular locations. Paris has none of that except on the few lines that serve multiple terminals.
4) Paris trains require you to push a button or swing a lever to make the doors open. Not sure why this is.
Lots of places have this-- most of Europe in fact. It is not too useful in Paris where it's crowded and almost entirely underground. But a system like London benefits from this with a lot of surface running and a lot of nasty weather. Only the doors that passengers need to use are opened keeping the heat (or a/c) in and the rain and cold out. I like this system and think it should be applied in NYC but people in NYC are sheep and could never adapt :-)
5) Seat layout on Paris trains would never work in New York. More emphasis on providing extra seats, less standing room....Edge: NY
Agreed with no argument here!
11) Stations have gigantic advertising posters which overwhelm you. I hated them. Edge: NY.
The subway doesn't have much advertising true but take a look at the PATH stations...
12) New York is already easier to navigate due to the grid system. Paris lines go in a circle around the city, so there is no uptown/downtown system.
I almost think this is a tie for newcomers to the systems. New York has a lot of confusion with express/local and multiple lines sharing a single track in the CBD. Paris doesn't have that, but there's no grid system and the lines tend to meander.
13) Abandoned stations - I saw one in between Babylon and Mabilon stops. Anyone know anything about it?
There's quite a few-- check out our Transfer Station for some web sites that deal with abandoned Paris metro stations.
14) Metro stops have really nice designs on the outside, done by a famous designer I believe.
Hector Guimard. There's a couple of his major entrances still around, one at Abessess, and some others of different styles like at Cite. Although, NY *used* to have nice Kiosks...
15) All stations are round tunnels, which would seem to indicate that they are all bored. I didn't see any boxy New York-style cut-and-cover stations.
Did you ride Ligne 1 among others? Paris has plenty of cut and cover.
22) Token booth employees very helpful. Most spoke some degree of English. Edge: Paris.
I wonder what the rate of multilingual-ness is among NYC token booth agents. Mostly Spanish I would expect. The French aren't particularly helpful unless you make some attempt to understand/speak French so I'm not sure this is a real edge...
Some other observations you might have missed:
Some lines, like Ligne 1, are "pneu"-- they run on rubber tires with steel rail guideways. Very fast accelleration and very quiet compared to all-steel.
I've been working on a digital version of the Paris track map. The Parisien metro builders were very fond of loops and almost every line has at least one. Since they close down at night, they can park trains on the main lines and have few large yards like New York does. There are some small stabling areas at the ends or in the middle of a line but nothing like a Parisien Coney Island Yard.
Visit our Paris Pages for some photos.
-Dave
Although NY's are sometimes like sheep I think they can get used to opening doors. Remember before the fishbowl buses when they had GMC's & Macks the rear doors were always automatic. New Yorkers got used to self opening rear doors.
Also, does Paris have any els? In the movie "Is Paris Burning" there is a great scene on a Paris El train during the occupation of a German Officer yelling at a drunk enlisted man in front of an allied spy. I always wondered if that scene was realistic. The movie was made in the early 60's. Anyone know?
> Also, does Paris have any els?
A few short stretches, there might be more:
Ligne 1 - River Seine bridge out toward La Defense (no stations?). On surface at Bastille station (1 station)
Ligne 2 - between Anvers and Col. Fabien (4 stations)
Ligne 5 - Quai de la Rapee and Gare d'Austerlitz stations on elevated structure (2 stations)
Ligne 6 - between Picpus and Daumsnil (1 station), between Bercy and Place d'Italie (3 stations), and between Denfert and Place d'Italie (3 stations), and between Pasteur and Trocadero (6 stations)
Ligne 8 - bridge over River Marne between Charenton Ecoles and Alfort
Ligne 13 - south of Malakoff-Vanves to end (2 stations). Also River Seine bridge between Mairie de Clichy and Peri.
Total 22 stations elevated or on surface, I think.
-Dave
Thank you Dave! Does anyone know if the el scene in "Is Paris Burning" a real Paris line or just a movie set?
Real Paris. I liked the Paris Metro, nice and quiet. Of course Parisians are snobby, even to other Frenchmen. But I found the station help very helpful. My favoprite station was the Louve, Also you could get a very good Metro Map at many stations in Numerous Languages. Did anybody ever ride the Athens Subway?
The northern end of ligne 5, the southern end of ligne 8 is also on surface.Although without a map in front of me, I can't count the number of stations.
Also notable is that southern end of ligne 8 was built as 3-track, foreseeing a NY style rush hour express running which never happened so far. I remember the old Sprague-Thompson stock with grey livery screaming on that section, the distanced-stations and brand new tracks giving them chance to reach top speed. Sort of the same thing could be said about ligne 5's Bobigny and the MF67s.
dave the problem i have is the hippo rino NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!!
thank you!
"dave the problem i have is the hippo rino NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!!"
What does this have to do with the message? Unless you're talking about Paris, which you are not because you're talking about Hippos and Rhinos. Frankly, your constant whining about railfan windows is becoming tiresome, we get the point, you're obsessed with railfan windows. Many of us are too, but we don't post about that and nothing else.
Are there any C O P E F members on Subtalk,,Paris Rail Fan Club for the Metro
Philadelphia and Chicago run four track express lines, but not throughout the system.
Of Philly's 3 subway lines, one uses four tracks over most of its route.
Neither runs full-time expresses. I don't know about Chicago but there is limited express service on weekends via the Ridge Avenue spur hitting the mainline Broad Street express tracks.
Neither runs full-time expresses. I don't know about Chicago but there is limited express service on weekends via the Ridge Avenue spur hitting the mainline Broad Street express tracks.
The Purple Line runs express between Howard and Belmont (skipping 12 local stops) during rush hours only.
Also, although it's not specifically referred to as an "express" service, the Red Line skips Armitage, Diversey and Wellington between Armitage and Belmont, while Brown Line and Purple Line trains make all stops in this short stretch. Fullerton and Belmont serve as transfer points between all three lines.
-- David
Chicago, IL
Does the MTA still run a normal, weekday/rush hour schedule for the subway system on the Friday after Thanksgiving? The last time I had to work on that day it did, but it might have changed since then.
Info appreciated.
Yes it does. The stock market, banks and all government offices are open.
Thanks.
In Boston, the MBTA runs a Saturday schedule on the Friday after Thanksgiving for rapid transit, streetcar, and bus lines. With all of the shoppers and others with a day off, the trains (especially the Green Line as they run single cars instead of two-car trains) are more crowded than normal rush hours!
On the other hand, the Commuter Rail is on a normal weekday schedule.
Subway rush hour ridership is very light on days such as Martin Luther King Day, Good Friday, Veterans Day, Day after Thanksgiving, Christmas & New Years Eve and a few others. And the TA cries about needlessly spending money. How about this. On those days, run the regular M-F services, but run the midday service frequency during the rush periods. Employees not needed to work on the basis of seniority will simply use an AVA day to get paid.
Why should that arrangement be done according to seniority? People with good seniority already get enough breaks.They can plan vacations whenever they want, for the most part. They don't have to worry about not getting a day off for a wedding, baptism,sporting event, etc.
True, but that's merely a reward for having to suffer at the hands of those employees who had seniority over them when they first started out working for the TA.
Maybe the rush hour ridership is light but the ridership after the parade was very heavy. Getting into the Columbus Circle station after the last float (Santa) passed there took about 5 minutes just to get down the stairs. The funny thing is the train (IRT #1) was only crowded by the turnstiles!!! All you had to do was walk down the platform. I guess most people stopped when they got onto the platform. The LIRR to Mineola on the 11:12 to Ronkonkoma was something else. 35 yrs of taking the LIRR and I don't remember any train that crowded. Like the rush hour "E" or "F" to Jamaica!!! And passing the Kew Gardens area I thought about that fateful Thanksgiving on the LIRR in 1950. (three years b-4 I was born) I'm not superstitious at all but it still was an eirie feeling!!
I would like to know if anybody has any information
as to where other master towers(such as the one at
Grand Central Station) are located and what lines
they serve. I would also like to know how one would
come around to getting one of these jobs.
You get there as a promotion from either C/R or some title in Signals - I'm not sure which. In the IRT, the following are Master Towers:
240 St - from VC to S of 137 St/Bway
205 St - from Woodlawn to S of Burnside
239 St - from 241 to S of 219
E. 180 St - from Dyre Ave to N of Freeman
Westchester Ave Master Tower - from Pelham Bay to S of 3 Ave
Mott Ave - from N of 167 and S of Prospect Ave to S of 138 St/G.C.
Lenox - from 148 St to S of 110 St
Times Sq Mainline - from S of 103 St to N of Chambers St
Grand Central - from N of 125/Lex toBrooklyn Bridge Loop
Nevins St - from S of Chambers and S of B'klyn Bridge to N of Atlantic Ave.
Utica Ave - from S of Eastern Pkway to Flatbush and Utica Ave relay tracks.
Livonia - from S of Rockaway Ave to Livonia Yard.
Station agent also.
The Delaware River Port Authority's (DRPA) Lindenwold Line in NJ now has full double direct running with cab signaling all the way to it's Lindenwold's terminal. Union Switch & Signal completed the final cutover within the latest two months. Thanks to the Switch for a job well done.
The Lindenwold is the first ATO line in service in the United States using EL Cab Signaling and 100 Hz AC track circuits with impedance bonds. It's a very successful operation and still used the same technology today. The line opened in 1968.
Tomorrow is Thanksgiving and lets all give thanks for having rapid transit to ride and talk about.
CHEER CHEER CHEER
I would like to wish everybody here on SubTalk a Happy Thanksgiving. Im sorry that I am not up there in NYC. But I will be there for good around the 3rd week in Dec. I am also looking forward to the long but exciting trip on Amtrak on my way back to NYC. Happy Thanksgiving once again.............
3TM
Fortunately, I have enough time on the job such that I do not have to work on Thanksgiving Day. Yes, all transportation workers laboring today (bus, rail, airline) know working holidays is part of the job. All you SubTalkers who are prospective Train Operators and Conductors: enjoy today. This may be you last freshly cooked Thanksgiving turkey for a while (unless your RDO is Thursday). Thanks to all transportation wokers moving people today while we enjoy feasting with our family & friends.
Bill, Have a Happy Thanksgiving. I also got today off on a AVA.
We should stop calling R68s "hippos." Real hippos, the animal kind that is, are capable of quite impressive speed - I once recall reading in some travel book that outrunning a charging hippo (they have a tendency to be ornery) is almost always unsuccessful. And we all know that a hippo of the R68 variety can't outrun a snail!
I'm new to subtalk, so I don't know, but I'm assuming you've talked on this topic before. But I haven't, so I might as well.
First, does anyone know, if the 2nd avenue subway is ever built, if it will use division A specs or division B specs? Well anyway, here goes.
Assuming that the subway won't terminate at 63rd street and WILL go at least down to city hall, here's what I think it should do. I know this would require massive tunneling, but it's just a statement. Also, I'm just talking about the manhattan part. It'll be coming down second avenue, and somewhere between 23rd and 14th st it'll slide over to First avenue, make a transfer w/the L line there, and then slide over to Avenue A, to give people in the East Village a one-train ride to work, and it'll go down ave a/essex to East B/Way, go up there to park row, city hall.
1. The Second Avenue subway would have B division specs, as it had in all of the previous proposals for the last 70 years.
2. An Avenue A routing was indeed pushed by officials on the Lower East Side in 1968-69. The MTA came up with a compromise plan, which was a spur or "cuphandle" route that would have run out of the center tracks of the existing Second Avenue/Houston St. station and gone up Avenue C.
3. If a lower section is ever built, it is doubtful that it would terminate at City Hall. The MTA would probably go with a route on Water Street to Whitehall St. The Regional Plan Association has suggested using the Centre St./Nassau St. line as the southern segment.
You'll find lots to detail by looking up by keyword, e.g. 2nd Ave or 63rd Street. Your AOL return address doesn't help to ID if you're local or from out of town ... if local try to find Transit Transit for November ... it had an interview with TA Pres. inside one of existing part of the unfinished 2nd Ave STUBway.
Mr t__:^)
i'm curious how many trains will do tests runs and what line the 2 or the 5? if there is a strike,will this impede the R-142 progress?
If there's a strike, then there will be no one there to run the test train. The cars are not going into service immediately. There needs to be a period of acceptance testing with the 1st Set. If it's a success, then that set will go into service, and the other sets will follow. Keep in mind that the train operators are also going to need time to familiarize themselves with the equipment. I'd figure by late spring, early summer of 2000, the first set should be carrying passemgers. I expect the sets to be on the 2/5 since the E180th St shop will maintain them. There may be test runs on other lines such as the 4 and 7. It wouldn't be surprising as the R62s spent time on several lines back in the 80s.
-Stef
Happy Thanksgiving from Chicago!
Best wishes to all for a healthy and Happy Thanksgiving.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just heard a report from Channel 7 that the strike set for December is off. It seems the dispute has been settled. Is that true?
-Stef
I checked Channel 7's web site and that is only for NJ Transit Not going on strike on New Years Eve.
Dave why couldn't you post the full story? If anyone read the article, you would note that there are laws protecting federal employees by giving them leverage as a right to strike. We have a Taylor Law which acts as a shield for the NYCTA to bargain in bad faith. Imagine NJT not having a contract for over three years. If it isn't for this special New Years party in Times Square, they would not have the opportunity to get a fair contract. They will get 9% off the bat with 3% each year including the next 4 years. Although it comes out to 3% per year, Id be curious to see what, IF ANY benefit or rule concessions they have. We should HAVE THE SAME POWER TO STRIKE as they do as we do the same work as they do. We don't want to go on strike but NJT realized that they had to reward their employees through the collective bargaining agreement process because of the power the engineers have to stop working. The Taylor Law is discrimination. I wish the union had the power of a good attorney to challenge this law in Supreme Court.
Your Right I should have posted more. We should have the same right as they had which is the Right to walk off the job because of the fear of Terrorism
I pressed the Post button on accident.
But as I was saying We should have the same right as NJ Transit. Exspecally with the New Years celebrations for the Year 2000. Not saying a there should be no Trains running but we should have the same Rights as the Railroads.
(We should have the same rights of the railroads).
No argument there. But I think that TWU and railroad workers should have only the same rights as anyone else. Do you think anyone else in the city could walk off the job with that excuse?
Which excuse exactly? I (and a majority of transit workers)feel the current situation morally justifies our actions. What choice do we have at this point? A crooked arbitration system? A management team with absolutely NO incentive to bargain in good faith? One that holds us in such utter contempt, that the bargaining positions they put forth would have been laughed off the table anywhere else! Let them try that with BLE, or UTU! Never happen, cause they have a federally protected right to strike. Since we don't, what reason does management here hve to deal with honor? No, they treat us like coolie laborers instead.
This Friday evening, "ECW Wrestling" on the Nashville Network (TNN) is scheduled to include a grudge match which takes place somewhere in the NYC subway system. Last week's show prominently featured a Redbird...let's see what they show this week. The program airs at 8 pm Eastern time.
I still like a previous post suggesting the Wilson Ave. Station for the locale so that the "Undertaker" and manager "Paul Bearer" could come out of the cemetery and into the action.....Probably would have been better to have that scenario take place on a Halloween episode.
Great, as if there are not enough juiced up teens riding around the subway looking for trouble already, now we've got professional wrestlers egging them on. The transit cops must love this.
Obviously, the sketch was done with the explicit consent and co-operation of the Powers that Be...no more "Pelham 1-2-3s" in THIS city (though ironically this was done on the same subway line). King Rudy would have it no other way.
Now, let's see how quickly those ECW wanna-bes in the WWF program a subway storyline!
Here's a report on the subway segments seen tonight on
TNN's "ECW Wrestling". The storyline: New Jack, a
"gangsta" good guy, is riding up and down the #6 line in
the Bronx looking for a pair of villains called The
Baldies, who have challenged him to a street fight. The subway segments generally appear just before or after commercial breaks; timings are to the nearest PREVIOUS minute.
6:00: New Jack boards an R-62A car at elevated station,
presumably N/B.
13:00: Jack enters R-62A car #1714 thru end door.
37:00: Jack on platform outside R-36 Redbird #9550,
waving #6 schedule - scroll signs on car visible.
48:00: Jack sits inside stationary R-62A car (#1762?),
presumably at Pelham; male station employee in flourescent
vest tells him that the Baldies are on a Redbird train
that is pulling out across platform. The Redbird includes
R-29 cars #8678, 8679, 8674; Baldies are seen in the
middle doors of #8679.
57:00: Jack on (presumably) S/B R-62A #1735, pulling into
Westchester Sq (signs plainly visible). He exits train
and is attacked by the Baldies, who proclaim "Giuliani -
now you're lookin' for us..." End of show.
All the action takes place at night, in misty rain.
Overall, not a bad skit. The program didn't say if there
would be more next week.
LOL. As someone who watches the ECW promotion with a bit of voyeuristic pleasure, I'd say that was pretty mild. You haven't lived until you see one of those "baldies" staple "New Jack" in the eyeball with a power stapler.
The funny thing is I work Pelham 5 Days Tuesday to Satuarday and haven't heard a thing.
Here's a report on the subway segments seen tonight on
TNN's "ECW Wrestling". The storyline: New Jack, a
"gangsta" good guy, is riding up and down the #6 line in
the Bronx looking for a pair of villains called The
Baldies, who have challenged him to a street fight. The subway segments generally appear just before or after commercial breaks; timings are to the nearest PREVIOUS minute.
6:00: New Jack boards an R-62A car at elevated station,
presumably N/B.
13:00: Jack enters R-62A car #1714 thru end door.
37:00: Jack on platform outside R-36 Redbird #9550,
waving #6 schedule - scroll signs on car visible.
48:00: Jack sits inside stationary R-62A car (#1762?),
presumably at Pelham; male station employee in flourescent
vest tells him that the Baldies are on a Redbird train
that is pulling out across platform. The Redbird includes
R-29 cars #8678, 8679, 8674; Baldies are seen in the
middle doors of #8679.
57:00: Jack on (presumably) S/B R-62A #1735, pulling into
Westchester Sq (signs plainly visible). He exits train
and is attacked by the Baldies, who proclaim "Giuliani -
now you're lookin' for us..." End of show.
All the action takes place at night, in misty rain.
Overall, not a bad skit. The program didn't say if there
would be more next week.
LOL. As someone who watches the ECW promotion with a bit of voyeuristic pleasure, I'd say that was pretty mild. You haven't lived until you see one of those "baldies" staple "New Jack" in the eyeball with a power stapler.
The funny thing is I work Pelham 5 Days Tuesday to Satuarday and haven't heard a thing.
Our NRHS Chapter is trying to locate a handle from an M-23 or ME-23 Brake Valve It is needed for our RDC car, PRSL M-403 Please Reply to me on Sub Talk
You should be able to use an ME-42/43 handle
Cross reference noted, However we still need a handle. Anybody have one?
I Thank all of You for responding to my posting. a person on SubTalk is sending me a handle for our RDC car. SubTalk WORKS for preservation. THANK YOU, DAVE PIRMANN
I don't live in NY, so I can't check this myself:
Subway service notes inform about 2-trains to South Ferry then taking the 4-line to Brooklyn. I see that there's a track leading from the 4-line-platform to the loop platform, but they don't really push the trains back, do they?
Not really. Basically what happens is that the 2 train goes express from Chambers St on the West Side to Wall St on the East Side, doing a complete turn around the loop. Heading in the northbound direction, the 2 enters the Wall St Station and reverses direction and crosses over the switch (from northbound track to the southbound track with a new train operator on the south end) and proceeds into Bowling Green making all stops on the Lex to Nevins St before going normal.
It's one of the oddest G.O.'s you know?
-Stef
It's odd, but so much fun especially when you tell people that the train will stop at Bowling green and then it speeds through the station going North. Or when you tell them that the train WILL go to Brooklyn and they panic when you get off at Wall St. Or the looks they give you when they finally get to their station in Brooklyn and they're on the wrong end of the platform.
What you're saying is the 2 runs down the 1/9 track
non-stop to SF, takes the loop, and changes to the Lex 4/5
track into and past Wall St.?
It goes into Wall St on the Lex, stops, reverses direction and goes to Brooklyn.
Ok this is how the G.O is going to work.
The Southbound No.2 Trains will continue to South Ferry. The train will get a Line up for Lex outside the station and continue into Bowling Green then proceed up to Wall Street where the Train Operator will Change Ends. Then It will continue to Brooklyn.
Thanks to my darling daughter and her husband, my household grew by one new member yesterday. They gave my wife and me a very early Christmas present in the form of a 7 Lb. White male poodle (4 mos. old). (We lost our faithful companion of 15 years to complications of biabetes about 16 months ago). The trouble is we can't agree on a name. We are seeking suggestions but we'd perfer they were not Subway or train related. If you'd like to help, and we use your suggestion, I'll happily send you a Jamaica Shop hat and a Tee Shirt.
thanks
Steve & Chris
Why not Casey? You could give him the tee shirt after shrinking it in the wash a hundred times or so.
My brother s 2 white poodles are Friskie and Sparky
Congradulations!
How about Curley?
Chaohwa
How about "Spike"? Try not to think of it as being train related.
It would be a rather misleading name for a poodle.
How about OPTO. Whoops that is subway related.
My wife loved the first suggestion that was E-mailed to us. She says the name solves two problems. The first is our new pooch has a name and second, she says now that his name is Harley I can stop whinning because I finally have one (albiet with 4 legs and not two wheels). Thanks to all of you and I hope your Holiday is as happy as ours is.
Congrats.
The four leged one will be more fun, cheaper to feed and wont dump you off on the side of the road.
How about naming him after the dog you lost?
Thanks Jeff but she was a female and one of a kind.
[Thanks to my darling daughter and her husband, my household grew by one new member yesterday. They gave my wife and me a very early Christmas present in the form of a 7 Lb. White male poodle
(4 mos. old). (We lost our faithful companion of 15 years to complications of biabetes about 16 months ago). The trouble is we can't agree on a name. We are seeking suggestions but we'd perfer
they were not Subway or train related.]
I can't think of any names appropriate for a tiny poodle. Now, on the other hand, if you'd been given a big fat basset hound, whose stomach dragged on the ground and walked with a slow waddle, the perfect name would be "R68."
Recently overheard employees talking about New Year's Eve service. It seems that - if they are not on strike - all trains will stop running at 11:45p and not move again until at least 12:15a. Anybody want to confirm or deny?
Recently overheard employees talking about New Year's Eve service. It seems that - if they are not on strike - all trains will stop running at 11:45p and not move again until at least 12:15a. Anybody want to confirm or deny?
I can't confirm or deny, but it doesn't sound too off-the-wall. They just may do this, as a Y2K precaution.
How are the subways affected by Y2K?
How are the subways affected by Y2K?
I don't know, but could you think of a better reason to suspend service from 11:45 pm until 12:15 am?
Are they just going to stop where they are, or pull into the nearest station. I think getting stuck on the Manny B or Willy B will be great if there are fire works in Upper Bay. Someone let me know what happens since I am 5 hours behind you guys
With all due respect to you, this is exactly how false rumors start. One guy starting this thread on "I heard that such & such will happen" to your post asking how this "plan" will be implimented. If this were true, wouldn't this sensationsistic plan have been plastered all over page 1 of the newspapers and the top story on all the NY TV stations by now? This rumor sounds pretty radical. Let's just end this here for now and just wait & see.
It strikes me funny that you guys are saying this rumor is "radical," "sensationalistic" and such. The transit agency here in Stockholm has decided to stop all trains at the nearest station around 11:50 p.m. on 31 December. The trains will stand still for about 15 minutes.
This has been reported both in the press and on the transit agency's Web site, so it's no rumor!
As for the question of what Y2K has to do with the subway: Here, many of the control systems are computerized, and since they keep logs and such, they have to keep track of the date and time. It's not unthinkable that they could have problems with the switchover, even though the transit agency says they've verified everything. I guess they don't want to take any chances.
If the TA has any computerized control systems, there is certainly a risk, though possibly limited, that they (the systems, not the TA ;-) ) could "have a cow" at 0:00 on January 1. I'm not, of course, saying the rumor is true -- I'm in no position to know -- but I didn't find this rumor particularly surprising or "radical" at all.
Regards,
Tim
Not far-fetched at all.
Connex Services (one of the British long distance train services serving London and southern Britain) will be winding down service on New Years Eve, and at 2200 (10pm) will **cease all service** until 0100 (1am) New Years Day. Service will then resume.
This info was posted in Victoria Station, London by the Destination Boards. I saw it there last week (11/20/99). I did not see any notices regarding the UndergrounD's plans in any of the tube stations.
Then it isn't surprising that Stockholm's transit system is doing the same thing. CGEA subsidiary Connex Tunnelbanan now runs the subway and four other rail lines in Stockholm, including the one I work on.
-- Tim
As for the airline industry, I understand that most carriers will not have any planes in the sky at midnight on New Years Eve.
Not true! But a lot of them will be underfilled. You should see the promotional fares available now for that night!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The best way to solve this debate is to go to an official source -- the MTA website.
There is a special Y2K section, along with a feature in the TransitTransit online program, but I couldn't get the links working in TransitTransit.
According to the website, the MTA expects to be fully Y2K compatible by the end of the year and will have no interruption in service on New Year's Eve.
Bill, go grab a NYC newspaper dated 11/26/99. Find the MTA ad about events going on on New Year's Eve and how to get there by mass transit. See all those little *s? The footnote says to check Service Notices for announcements about service that night. While the notices are not out yet, all subway trains will stop and stay at a station somewhere between 11:45p and 11:50p to wait out the rollover. This is in case the electric grid goes down - better to evacuate people at a station than to have them walk a dark tunnel.
If this were true, wouldn't this sensationsistic plan have been plastered all over page 1 of the
newspapers and the top story on all the NY TV stations by now? This rumor sounds pretty radical.
I dunno if radical is the right word. And a 30 minute precationary delay making headlines, I don't think so. This would not be a big problem. As Larry said, most people won't be in the subways at that time anyways. It will even take the Times Square crowd a few minutes to get to the subway after the ball drops. Besides, the party in Times Square is not ending at midnight, it goes for 25 hours. It starts at 6 am (12/31) with ringing in the new year at the south pacific, and there will be hourly celebrations for all the Time Zones. This includes Time Zones all the way to Hawaii.
Secondly, as far as Y2k is concerned, problems can happen, but not necesarily at the stroke of midnight, just like BMT lines pointed out. It could take 5 or 10 minutes for the disruptions to occur, so waiting til l :15 past is not a bad idea.
Now you are right, the MTA has not confirmed this plan. However, while it may be a rumour, it could certainly come true, and is worthy of discussion on here. However, we may have discussed all that is necessary by now! :) -Nick
Now you are right, the MTA has not confirmed this plan. However, while it may be a rumour, it could certainly come true, and is worthy of discussion on here.
If this were true, wouldn't this sensationsistic plan have been plastered all over page 1 of the
newspapers and the top story on all the NY TV stations by now? This rumor sounds pretty radical.
The MTA may not release this plan to the media until 12/31/1999. Also, something like this is not a matter of life and death. Why would it be splashed on page 1? If this information was never released, the average rider would just chalk it up to another subway delay.
The only reason it would make any sense to do this is if they are afraid of the possibility of a power failure. If that is it, then the whole point would be to have the trains in the stations, with doors open, when it happens. Deliberately stopping trains between stations would make no sense at all - that is presumably what they are trying to avoid happening. The chance of a power failure at midnight is very slim, but not zero. Do all the subway stations have emergency lighting so people will not be groping in the dark if the power does fail?
As protection against a power failure, come to think of it, it does make sense not to have subway between stations, or elevators between floors, at midnight. People probably won't be riding around at that time anyway -- they'll be working, partying, or at home.
I don't know about NYCT, but here in Baltimore all MTA rail (Subway & Light Rail) will stop at the closest stop @ 11:45 PM and stay until 12:15 AM. No Y2K problems are expected (Both MTA & BGE [Baltimore Gas & Electric] have assured themselves and the public that they are Y2K ready.), but MTA prefers to be extra safe as the clock changes. The buses are exempt, although some local bus nuts believe the Cubic fareboxes and the little printers (for day and student pass tickets) may not be Y2K. Rumor has it that bus operators will be provided with books of paper day passes for 1/1/00.
We shall see.
Can't confirm anything but it does sound possible. I would like to know why for 30 minutes if it does happen. Here in DC, the trains will stop from 11:55 until 12:05 and a few miles north in Baltimore, the subway and light rail will stop from 11:50 until 12:10. Why are 30 minutes needed to be safe. It could be a lot less.
Can't confirm anything but it does sound possible. I would like to know why for 30 minutes if it does happen. Here in DC, the trains will stop from 11:55 until 12:05 and a few miles north in Baltimore, the subway and light rail will stop from 11:50 until 12:10. Why are 30 minutes needed to be safe. It could be a lot less.
15 minutes allows a train that just left DeKalb to get over the bridge and make it to Grand St. It allows a train that just left 59th St.+8 Ave. to make it to 125th St. As for waiting until 12:15, maybe they just want to play it safe. Even though there is very little chance that Y2K can mess things up, there still remains that possibility. We all don't know what's going to happen until midnight on 1/1/2000. The biggest gauge will be what occurs in New Zealand and Australia. They will reach Y2K before we will.
As for the power grid, remember 1965? One malfunction at Niagra Falls caused the entire Eastern seaboard to go down. One malfunction in the grid (it doesn't have to be Con Ed) can cause a failure here. In such a case, it may take several minutes, at least, to go off the grid and get the power up again. That's why the 12:15 thing.
11/28/99
I can imagine the passengers (if any) expressions when the conductor announces that due to a Y2K directive from the Transit Authority , that this train will remain in this station with the doors open and doors will close and resume service at 12:15AM!
I'm pretty sure that those passengers may be late to some party or something and missing the turn of the century and millenium and celebrating it in a subway car underground somewhere.
Bill Newkirk
Yeah, when one by one they come up to the train operator & conductor personally, I doubt if they'll be wishing the crew a Happy New Year! LOL
Actually last year a very drunken young woman came up to my cab window making a stop at W4 Street on the special all night express. She wished me a happy new year with a nice kiss on the cheek. Thank heaven my wife who was on the train with my daughter actually saw her, otherwise I'd be explaining why I was wearing White Diamond when I left the house without men's cologne :-)
In July/August of this year, I had noticed that a good number of the #1/9 R62As were not even linked into fives.
Are there still some R62As on the #1/9 that have not been linked (or are all of them not linked once word of the R-142/142As and the plans for the #7 leaked during the last 3 months or so.)?
If there are cars that have not been linked on the #1/9, they can be fitting candidates for the single cars to compose as the eleventh car on the #7 (or sixth to eleventh cars)...Welcome home Redbirds to the #1 if that happens.
Nick
They should be all linked shortly, and only cars on the 3 will be left as single.
I proposed the situation on the 7 to be like this:
Estimate 385 Cars in total needed for the 7.
R62A from the 6 1651-1900 250 Cars
R62A from the 1 2156-2250 95 Cars
R62A from the 3 1901-1940 39 Cars (Singles)
R62As that go to the 7 can be replaced with Redbirds going to the Mainline.
As an alternate plan, someone told me that R62/62As from the 4 and 6 will go to Flushing with no singles and only 10 car trains (since the 4 and 6 are made up of linked 5 car units). Kawasaki and Bombardier Cars mixing? I don't see why it has to be impossible. Nobody ever said that they couldn't MU. It's like mixing GE and Westinghouse Cars together. Again, it's not impossible.
What do you think?
-Stef
I don't think that not a good idea putting R62 from #4 line & R62a from #6 line together on #7 line. Also are the #1 & #3 line is getting Redbirds cars?
Millennium Man 2000
Ok. I have a question. Is it impossible to MU these cars together? I don't see why it can't happen. Perhaps someone from the Division of Car Equipment can enlighten me....
Then again, the groups might be kept in their own flocks and not couple with each other. It's mere speculation.
Actually I imagined that the Redbirds would be on the 1 and 3 to replace the R62As on that line. But I'm not really sure how the plans going to work. All we know is that right now, Pelham R62As (only 250 of them, which is not enough) are going to Queens, and where the extras are coming from is beyond me.
-Stef
The Redbirds cannot go to the 3 because the 3 needs 9 car trains. However, Redbirds on the 1/9 would be nice.
The last time I saw non-R62 trains on the 1 line, they were R21-22, which tells you how long the R62 has ruled that route. BTW, is it true that the redbirds dont have the "9" route on it's side signs?
Right. Later R33 Mainline Car Rebuilds have this new sign as they had their sign racks replaced in late 1990, early 1991.
-Stef
There were redbirds on the B'way line earlier this year when Conrail train derailed and knocked out the Hudson line.
-Hank
the redbirds would be a huge improvment over some of the 62's on the 1 line there are some poor braking pieces of you know what on that line man i can't believe there haven't been more station over runs with the crap on that line...
And having the Redbirds on the 1 line eliminates the problem of having people caught in the rear 5 cars at South Ferry. With no transverse cabs, they can walk all the way from the rear car.
Until relatively recently, the R-62As on the 1/9 didn't have transverse cabs.
I don't understand why they were installed on a train line which has no plans to be shifted to OPTO service anytime soon. Were transverse cabs necessary when they linked them into 5 car units?
Transverse cabs are used for conductors convenience. The fact that the transverses are on both ends of then set has to do with yardmasters' convenience.
If they don't plan on running 11 car R62's on the 7 line, then it's a safe bet that only the 250 R62's from the 6 line will be transfered, leaving the rest of the Flushing fleet made up of R36WF cars, minus their R33 singles. This whole discussion centers around how the TA will accomodate 11 car 7 trains, and if that's not done, it simplifies things.
Expect an uproar from 7 riders when they see 10 car 7 trains. Between those tiny segmented seats and shorter trains, some will cry foul.
One problem: I don't think 250 R62As are enough. Even if there's no 11th car, some cars from another line have to come from somewhere.
-Stef
So, the 7 won't totally be R62. Let the remaining cars for the 7 line stay R36WF. I'm not so sure I'd like to see them disappear from that line so quickly.
Kawasaki R62 and Bombardier R62a i've been told cannot operate in s revenue consist, is there any truth to this?
It's been posted here before that it can be done, but generally isn't, and is not reccomended, as it can cause some problems.
-Hank
i was told at times square that the REDBIRDS will run last on the NUMBER 7 line !!!
Which is BAD! Those singles MUST BE KILLED!
On November 26th, 1832, public streetcar service began in New York City. The fare was 12.5 cents.
(12.5 cents in 1832 seems, to me at least, kind of expensive!)
Now my question - what company started the service? A predecessor to Manhattan Railway or the Third Ave Railway Company?
--Mark
The New York and Harlem RR Co. What do I win? One of your excellent tapes maybe?
By the way, your post didn't mention what happenned in the year 999 as promised in the subject :)
NY & Harlem RR ... Ok, guess I won't be a millionaire today :) Thanks for the info.
By the way, your post didn't mention what happenned in the year 999 as promised in the subject :)
I got a good laugh out of that one! That's what you get as a graduate of the Hunt & Peck School of Typing :)
--Mark
Today in 1967, the Chrystie St. connection opened up, linking the Williamsburg Bridge/Nassau line to the 6th Avenue IND and effectively bringing down most of their independent identities.
Subway Steve reminds us of the Chrystie St. opening in 1967.
He left out the connection of the Manhattan Bridge, Brighton and Fourth Avenue lines to it and the negative effects on the Broadway subway.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Negative effects? Wasn't the Broadway BMT packed to capacity before the connection to the 6th Ave. IND opened? Don't blame that connection, blame the way Broadway service was designed after it was opened. I wouldn't have cut Brighton/Broadway service down to a mere handful of rush-hour trains (QB) in favor of the Nassau St. (QJ) line.
I wouldn't have cut Brighton/Broadway service down to a mere handful of rush-hour trains (QB) in favor of the Nassau St. (QJ) line.
I agree. However, the TA's mentality was to consolidate routes, making them longer, while eliminating other routes. Hence, the D replaced the Q; the QJ replaced the JJ, QB and QT; the B replaced the BB, T and TT, etc. To this very day, 30 years later, I don't like what the Chrystie St. connection did to make one division out of 2. We no longer have a BMT division and an IND division. We have a B division. These days, most BMT Southern Division traffic goes up 6th Ave., rather than Broadway. What positive effects does this have? Most people taking the Brighton and West End aren't going past Midtown anyway. Only a railfan is going to ride from end to end. My point is, what's the purpose of having a Brighton train going to upper Manhattan and the Bronx? What's the purpose of having Culver trains going to Jamaica, Queens? The only part of the Chrystie St. connection that made sense to me was the K part of the connection that hasn't been used in more than 20 years. It provided Midtown service to the Eastern Division riders. Why ridership on the K was low enough to warrant abandonment, I don't know. Maybe its because the J operated express and the K operated local. Who knows? Maybe if the J operated local at all times, and the K operated express, maybe the K would have survived. Another Chrystie St. route that made sense was the EE. Queens riders didn't need a service that went into Brooklyn. Whitehall St. was enough. If you recall, the EE replaced the RR, which during rush hours was a looooooooooooong local run all the way from Forest Hills to 95th St. & 4th Ave., Brooklyn. We've completely gone full circle. That's what the R does today!
Why were the trains consolidated like that? Simple. To eliminate having routes that were only really used in one direction during the rush hour. The D was heavily used in both directions, with the Coney Island bound D train carrying people from the Bronx, and trains in the other direction carrying people from Brooklyn. This allows smooth symetrical service for both directions, and eliminates the need to carry empty trains back to the storage yard after their peak runs (like the F did when it terminated at Bway-Lafayette pre 1967). Imagine the bottleneck at that station with all those F trains trying to get into that station, then being forced to run all the way back to Queens to be stored.
As for the EE, I'd have never created such a line. I'd have extended the old QT to Continental, and removed the QJ from the Brighton line altogether, with the possible exception of a few peak direction rush hour trains (like the old Bankers specials).
Yeah, so in accomplishing one thing, they cause problems in another ares. Now that you have symmetrical traffic in and out of Manhattan, you have everything going up 6th Ave., with little Broadway service. With the TA, its all or nothing. Would it have been too much to ask to have dual service up both Broadway and 6th Ave., at least during rush hours. Yes, there was the QB, but what about the West End? You're right about the QJ. That was one of the dumbest ideas going. So, what do they do, cut the QJ back to Broad St. (J), and extend the M. Broadway service still lacking. Now there's an excuse. The Manhattan Bridge.
Actually, the way I had it, there were 4 Bway (QB/QT/N/RR) and 4 Sixth Ave routes (B/D/F/KK). Seems balanced to me.
Actually, the way I had it, there were 4 Bway (QB/QT/N/RR) and 4 Sixth Ave routes (B/D/F/KK). Seems balanced to me.
That's not the way they had it. The QT ceased operation when Chrystie St. opened. It was:
Broadway:
EE
N
QB (rush hours only, direction of heavy traffic only)
RR
6th Ave.:
B
D
F
KK (rush hours only)
On Broadway, you had 1 express (N) and 2 locals (RR & EE), the second not running nights and weekends. A second express during rush hours in 1 direction only (QB).
On 6th Ave., you had 3 expresses (B, D, F) with 1 local added during rush hours (KK).
Today, you have three full time expresses vs. 1 full time express and 1 full time local. I would hardly call this balanced. That's 3 6th Ave. routes vs. 1 Broadway route providing service to Coney Island. The only service on the Brighton and Culver is via 6th Ave. The primary service on the West End is via 6th Ave. (the secondary being the M going via Nassau St.) No, 6th Ave. serivce is not balanced with Broadway service. It hasn't been for 30 years and never will be.
BTW, I don't see how much more efficient post Chrystie St. routing is, as opposed to pre-Chrystie St. routing. Instead of being taken out of service, or running light, trains run in service against heavy traffic. A sb D-Train in morning rush doesn't pick up many passengers in Brooklyn, just as a nb D-train in morning rush doesn't pick up many passengers in the Bronx. The reverse is true in evening rush. Once they implemented Chrystie St., there was no surplus of subway cars. Eliminating duplication of service? Where's the savings?
you are 100 percent right.the K should have been retained on sixth ave.the QJ now J should be the bway bklyn lcl ,the Z the exp and sentuptown to the IND as another jamaica routing.the M should also run exp from 95st Rline to metropolitan ave. via 4th ave exp and bway bklyn exp.
The many many reasons why your proposals wouldn't work have been discussed at great length in the past.
The problem with running the M train from 95th St. is the lack of a storage facility at that end of the line. The first scheduled M train that runs into Manhattan and through Dekalb doesn't arrive at 36th St. until at least 7:10 AM. So many put-ins are necessary at the beginining of the AM rush. These have to come from Coney Island.
A storage yard in Bay Ridge would solve a lot of problems, including supplementing the 4th Ave local R with M service during the rush hours. Since the N was returned to it's regualar express run in 1994, service along the 4th Ave local south of 36th St. has been deteriorated dramatically.
You got it! The idea with Chrystie St. was to better utilize both sides of the Manhattan Bridge. Before: all Broadway with limited service to the Nassau loop. After: equalize passenger flow between Bway & 6th Ave. Now with the Bway side of the Manny B being closed, it puts more passengers onto 6th Ave. When they change sides, then southern division passengers will return to Bway. As long as any one side of the Manny B is closed, the Chrystie St. unification project can be considered a failure.
It was the Manhattan Bridge connection to 6th Ave. that opened on 11/26/1967. The Williamsburg Bridge (KK/K) connection didn't open until July 1, 1968.
Now THIS connection was a tremendous waste of money. It would have been better to eliminate this part and run the new KK line down the F line to Church Ave, thereby giving the Culver line the kind of express service it has the capacity to handle.
11/28/99
Is the (KK) connection used , at least for work train moves? The rails don't look too shiny when you pass them on the (J). Also a possiblity for an encampment for the homeless? Remember the 2nd Ave station.
Bill Newkirk
Is the (KK) connection used , at least for work train moves? The rails don't look too shiny when you pass them on the (J). Also a possiblity for an encampment for the homeless? Remember the 2nd Ave station.
I would imagine its still used for non-revenue service, although probably seldomly. Its a shame. To me sending B'way-B'klyn trains up 6th Ave. makes more sense than sending them down through Centre St. having a Z train is absurd. They should bring back the K.
Actually, the entire KK idea is absurd. There is no way anyone would choose to use it over other lines (the E/F in Queens and the A in Brooklyn) to get to midtown. Was anyone thinking straight when the Chrystie St. connection was designed?
I doubt it. It would have been better to route the tracks the other way, towards Nassau St., given the Manhattan Bridge situation today.
Actually, the entire KK idea is absurd. There is no way anyone would choose to use it over other lines (the E/F in Queens and the A in Brooklyn) to get to midtown. Was anyone thinking straight when the Chrystie St. connection was designed?
What about Broadway Brooklyn riders. I'm not talking about the Jamaica crowd, or those near the A.
It would have made more sense if they had used the connection at East New York and run the line to Canarsie. A KK Broadway-Brooklyn express from Carnarsie with only two stops between East New York and Manhattan definitely would have attracted riders from southeast Brooklyn, and would have been faster into Manhattan than the LL.
Actually, what they should have done was to run the K from 168th, but make it a non-stop express from Eastern Pkwy to Essex St. That might have increased ridership. But the money required to build the connection from Essex-Bway Lafayette wasn't worth it.
Actually, what they should have done was to run the K from 168th, but make it a non-stop express from Eastern Pkwy to Essex St. That might have increased ridership.
Running the K express, yes, but not uninterrupted. The stop at Myrtle Ave. wouldn't add much more time to the run, and it was necessary. What about people coming in from the Myrtle line? Also, a lot of people take buses to Metropolitan Ave. and take the M-Train. They would have no access to a 6th Ave. train. They should be able to change for a K express at Myrtle Ave.
They could transfer at Essex for both the KK or F. Myrtle Ave, after the closing of the el, was no longer a major x-fer point.
It would have made more sense if they had used the connection at East New York and run the line to Canarsie. A KK Broadway-Brooklyn express from Carnarsie with only two stops between East New York and Manhattan definitely would have attracted riders from southeast Brooklyn, and would have been faster into Manhattan than the LL.
Yes, that makes good sense. However, the KK was used on Jamaica Ave. as a skip-stop service with the QJ. I don't see why they couldn't have run both. The Broadway-Brooklyn Canarsie run during rush hours was discontinued when the Chrystie St. connection opened, for some stupid reason.
Actually, the old #14 (briefly named JJ in 67) only ceased running when the KK began in July 1968. The KK was meant to replace the #14 as the Broadway local, thus ensuring it's unpopularity and early demise.
Actually, the old #14 (briefly named JJ in 67) only ceased running when the KK began in July 1968. The KK was meant to replace the #14 as the Broadway local, thus ensuring it's unpopularity and early demise
You're right. I jus looked at a 1967 post-Chrystie map. They had 2 JJ's. One ran to 168th St. jamaica, which is the one I remember. The other ran to Rockaway Parkway. Its really odd. The people who dreamed up the routing back then must have been tripping on LSD. They had 3 trains on Jamaica Ave. - JJ, QJ and RJ. They also had the short-lived NX. I never rode it, but it must have been a railfan's delight. Anyway, getting back to the K or KK, they should have had 2 KK's - one running to Rockaway Parkway, and the other running skip-stop on the Jamaica Line. Both KK's should have been express on Broadway-Brooklyn. As things were, Broadway-Brooklyn riders were probably doing the same thing with the QJ (and later the J) and the KK as Queens IND riders were doing with the F and GG. I guess nobody, even if they were going up 6th Ave. wanted to take a ssssllllloooowwww local down the Broadway El. They probably opted for the express and changed for the F at Essex, like you said.
The JJ was a hybrid of sorts. It was a combination of the old #14 and 15 routes. Its service pattern was something like this:
AM rush hours: 168th St. and Canal St.; skip-stop Manhattan-bound along Jamaica Ave. Local along Broadway.
PM rush hours: Canal St. and Crescent St. or Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Parkway. All stops.
All other times: 168th St. and Broad St. All stops.
The TA map at the time even went so far as to say, "During PM rush hours, JJ trains do not operate between Crescent and 168th Sts."
There is a photo in the R-16 section of a #14 train at Canal St. with an Atlantic Ave. destination sign and a yellow-green marker light combination.
Actually, the old #14 (briefly named JJ in 67) only ceased running when the KK began in July 1968. The KK was meant to replace the #14 as the Broadway local, thus ensuring it's unpopularity and early demise
You're right. I jus looked at a 1967 post-Chrystie map. They had 2 JJ's. One ran to 168th St. jamaica, which is the one I remember. The other ran to Rockaway Parkway. Its really odd. The people who dreamed up the routing back then must have been tripping on LSD. They had 3 trains on Jamaica Ave. - JJ, QJ and RJ. They also had the short-lived NX. I never rode it, but it must have been a railfan's delight. Anyway, getting back to the K or KK, they should have had 2 KK's - one running to Rockaway Parkway, and the other running skip-stop on the Jamaica Line. Both KK's should have been express on Broadway-Brooklyn. As things were, Broadway-Brooklyn riders were probably doing the same thing with the QJ (and later the J) and the KK as Queens IND riders were doing with the F and GG. I guess nobody, even if they were going up 6th Ave. wanted to take a ssssllllloooowwww local down the Broadway El. They probably opted for the express and changed for the F at Essex, like you said.
Most transfered to the F at Essex anyway. Why clog the line with useless trains when more J and M trains could be run to get to Chambers St. (the biggest x-fer point on the whole Nassau St. line).
Most transfered to the F at Essex anyway. Why clog the line with useless trains when more J and M trains could be run to get to Chambers St. (the biggest x-fer point on the whole Nassau St. line).
First you adamantly make a point about how useless the Nassau St. line is to South Brooklyn riders, now you're saying that they should run more J and M trains down Nassau St. in lieu of a Broadway-Brooklyn 6th Ave. train. If these passengers switch for the F at Essex, then obviously the Nassau St. line is just as useless to them. I don't know about you, but I'd rather take only 1 train, than 2; especially if I had to do some walking up and down stairs to get the second train (especially if I had a seat on the first train). I assure you that Queens riders would be up in arms if Broadway BMT service on the IND Queens Line were discontinued, and they now had to switch at 34th St. for a Broadway train. One more thing about the K:
much time has passed since they discontinued the service. By now, maybe the demand for it would be higher than it was in the '70s.
It's useless to south Brooklyn riders because there are alternatives that go into midtown. Eastern dvision J/M riders have no choice but to take that train. No speed advantage is gained by running a 6th Ave train along the J line. The best thing for them is to run as much service to Chambers St as possible. 75% of all J/M riders transfer to other lines in Manhattan.
People like one seat rides. The change from the el at Bway Junction to the IND down that long escalator can be a pain in the Arse!! Besides, is the "A" really faster from Bway Junction? And unless you were getting on at 169, Parsons, or Sutphin, the E or F wasn't available to you.
Jeff: I'm curious. What train is the El at this point in Queens. I was under the impression that all trains, the G, E, R, etc were all underground at that point. Please clue me in.
Next stop on the Sea Beach---Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island.
The "J" & "Z" is still el W/O the LIRR.
It is faster if you get a train of R-38s. The express run along Fulton St. is a good one. The R-44s, well.....
The R44 is no whale, like the R68. It can get going, if given a chance.
THE K LINNE AS BUILT WAS AN AFTER THOUGHT.THIS ROUTE WAS IN FACT PART OF THE ORIGINAL SECOND AVENUE LINES BROOKLN BRANCH.THE PLAN WAS TO HAVE TWO TRACK FROM WILLY-B,AND TWO FROM MANNY-B MERGE UNDER CHRYSTYE STREET[WITH A STOP AT GRAND STREET] TO SECOND AVENUE NORTH.SOME HOW THINGS WENT SOUTH. 500 MILLION DOLLARS SOUTH. WITH A MR.ROBET MOSSES HELP,2nd AVE.CONTRACTS WERE NOT PUT UP FOR BIDDING,BUT-WE NOW HAVE A VERY FINE GRAND CENTRAL/VAN WYCK EXP.INTER CHANGE--[GAG!!]
Aside from your wonderful shouting, the Grand Central/Van Wyck Interchange was there since the beginning of the Van Wyck in 1948. The VW was extended into the upgraded Whitestone Expressway (Parkway before this upgrade) in 1964 for the Fair.
THE K LINNE AS BUILT WAS AN AFTER THOUGHT.THIS ROUTE WAS IN FACT PART OF THE ORIGINAL SECOND AVENUE LINES BROOKLN BRANCH.THE PLAN WAS TO HAVE TWO TRACK FROM WILLY-B,AND TWO FROM MANNY-B MERGE UNDER CHRYSTYE STREET[WITH A STOP AT GRAND STREET] TO SECOND AVENUE NORTH.SOME HOW THINGS WENT SOUTH. 500 MILLION DOLLARS SOUTH. WITH A MR.ROBET MOSSES HELP,2nd AVE.CONTRACTS WERE NOT PUT UP FOR BIDDING,BUT-WE NOW HAVE A VERY FINE GRAND CENTRAL/VAN WYCK EXP.INTER CHANGE--[GAG!!]
WILL YOU PLEASE STOP SHOUTING!
All caps is a strain on the eyes, and its bad Netiquette. Thank You.
sorry
WITH A MR.ROBERT MOSSES HELP,2nd AVE.CONTRACTS WERE NOT PUT UP FOR BIDDING ...
What did Robert Moses have to do with the underground 2nd Ave subway in Manhattan?
--Mark
I dont think this is something that can be blamed on Moses. The city issued the bonds to fund the 2nd Ave. line in the 1950's, but the TA spent that money on other things.
And, at about one a.m on this date in 1967, the last straggler finally found his way to his home on the Concourse, having spent two days trying to find the right train.....
I'd have loved to see the reaction to all the riders on the BMT on the first day of Chrystie St. service.
"Why is there a D train here? Where's the QT? Why is this West End #3 marked as BB? Huh, the D doesn't stop at 23rd. St anymore? Grand St.? Where am I? Doesn't this train goto to Chambers St? I've been waiting for 3 hours for a T train, but all I see are B trains. QJ? What's up with that?"
I do remember the first day the Archer Ave. line opened (Sunday, 12/11/88), and that day a similiar dizzying array of new service patterns were institued. It was fun to watch the people get off the E train in this brand new station, looking like lost puppies, wondering where on God's earth they were and why this train didn't take them to 179th St.
There was mass confusion, to be sure. No one knew where any train would wind up. There was a newspaper article which spoke of a train taking a wrong lineup at DeKalb and winding up on the Manhattan Bridge instead of the Montague St. tunnel.
Incidentally, the #3 marking made a brief comeback in October of 1968, when the R-11s were assigned to the B line. Otherwise, both the BB and T ceased to exist when the B came into being. The TT lingered on as a late night/Sunday West End shuttle before making its last run on June 30, 1968. Apparently, the idea of keeping the same marking for a late night shuttle hadn't been conceived yet.
There was a newspaper article which spoke of a train taking a wrong lineup at DeKalb and winding up on the Manhattan Bridge instead
of the Montague St. tunnel.
Not exactly - it was a D train sent over the south side of the bridge to Canal St instead of the north side to Grand St. See my other post on the same subject for the article's details.
--Mark
Chris: The problem was compounded by the fact that the TA did not make up its mind about some of the routes until the last minute. They did publish a bare bones brochure that neglected to mention the NX. Very little effort was put into educating the public about the changes and it didn't have to be an all or nothing approach. The 6 Avenue express tracks could have been openned at any time and the D and the F could have switched southern terminals prior to the changeover. Shifting the Brighton Local from a Broadway route to a Nassau Street route made little sense. Most passengers crowded onto the few Brighton Locals still going up Broadway (QB). The EE was another mistake since it mainly carried passengers in one direction only. This is what Chrystie Street was supposed to eliminate.
The 6 Avenue routing of the BMT Southern Division services have never really worked. How many Brighton Line passengers really have a burning desire to ride all the way to the Grand Concourse. The B has never really found a home on the IND and just wanders from terminal to terminal like a vagabond. This is all very reminisent of what they did to Penn Station. They tore down a magnificent,FUNCTIONAL facility and replaced it with a glorifed basketball court. Right now I think they are going through the third rebuilding and Penn Station is still hopelessly overcrowded.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Part of the confusion, the TA thought, was that passengers weren't taking advantage of the (then) new free transfer between the BMT & IRT at Atlantic Avenue. They felt that using this transfer would have made things flow much easier.
Also, the NX was increased fro 5 to 7 trains in the AM rush a few days after its inauguration. The reason why the NX came into being was the influx of (then) new housing at Coney Island - it was felt that this service would serve them well. As we all know, this was not the case.
Lindsay asked the TA to postpone the service changes the Wednesday before they were supposed to go into effect because of complaints he was receiving, and it didn't make sense to him that this changeover was occurring only 3 or so months before the TA would become part of the MTA. The TA told Lindsay they would study service changes and adjust them accordingly, and he agreed to let them be made. City Hall couldn't mandate the TA to not implement the service changes anyway.
There was even a lawsuit made on behalf of some riders group that said the TA built new routes and, as such, required public hearings that would never be held. The TA argued that they were service CHANGES and therefore didn't require public hearings. The judge sided with the TA.
And I'm sure everyone's thinking (and rightly so) regarding the argument for serving a large housing development - what about co-op city ....
--Mark
Mark: The free transfer at Atlantic was and is through a cramped and crowded narrow passageway. The other free transfer they opened at the time was between 42 Street/6 Avenue and 5 Avenue/42 Street but at that time you had to obtain a ticket and go outside the fare controls and onto the street. In any event the passageway at Atlantic could have been opened any time before Chrystie Street. This would have allowed passengers to become familiar with it.BTW it was the QB which was increased by two trains in the am and one in the pm. The NX always stayed at five trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
BTW it was the QB which was increased by two trains in the am and one in the pm.
Then I guess the Times was wrong; that's what it reported the week of 11/26/1967. It said the NX was increased to 7 AM trains, and I think it also said that the QB was increased as you mentioned.
--Mark
I thought nobody ever rode the NX, which is why it was killed after only 8 months. It does seem to be a rather poorly designed route, going south from Brighton Beach to get into Manhattan.
I never understood why the TA thought that Nassau St service on the Brighton Local would be adequate. What they should have done was to keep the old QT, run it local, through the tunnel, up Broadway, and out to Forest Hills, eliminating the need for the EE. The Nassau St service should have been limited to rush-hour only M service from both 95th and Coney Island, via Brighton, making all stops. Outside of rush hour service for Wall St. workers, the Nassau St. line is as useless to BMT Brooklyn riders as the G is to Queens Blvd. IND riders.
the Nassau St. line is as useless to BMT Brooklyn riders as the G is to Queens Blvd. IND riders.
That is an understatement. Most people are off the G by Queens Plaza. I think most people at the local stops would take which ever local came first, unless going down Broadway was critical, in which case they would wait for an R. Otherwise, they would get off at the express stations and catch an F. I think the G should be cut back to Court Square. Except as a local feeder line shuttling people to the express stations, it has no value in Queens. It is just a remnant of a bygone era. Queens needs 24/7 local service into Manhattan.
During the rush hours, the M does have some use, as an alternative way to get to lower Manhattan. The G has no such use.
During the rush hours, the M does have some use, as an alternative way to get to lower Manhattan. The G has no such use.
True. That's why they should cut the G back to Court Square at all times. To Queens riders, it is the train to nowhere.
I'm not too sure about that. At least in the rush hours, I see a great many people riding the 'G' THROUGH Queens Plaza between Brooklyn and Queens. A lot of students living in Queens use it to get to, among other places Brooklyn Tech and Pratt Institute.
There's also a lot of industry in Brooklyn neighborhoods served by the 'G', and many Queens residents use it to get to work.
On weekends, when the 'G' is cut back to Court Square, I see a LOT of people using the passageway between it and 23rd-Ely.
Of course, this will all become academic in 2003, or whenever the 63rd Tunnel connection is completed.
I remember having one of those first brochures; my mother picked it up when she went into the city one day in the fall of 1967 and gave it to me. Unfortunately, it disappeared years ago. There was mention of transfers to the NX on the individual route listings, but there was no NX route shown. I do have the second brochure which includes the KK and other changes which would take effect on July 1 and August 18, 1968.
The New York Times carries a number of articles about the Chrystie St connection opening the week of 11/26/67. Confusion for both passengers and train crews was the norm:
- At Prospect Park, a woman asked a conductor if his train was a "QT". The conductor said, "beats me".
- At 14th St (BMT Broadway Line), passengers got into a heated argument regarding whether the train was a QB or an NX. A heavy-set man won the argument convincing everyone that the train was an NX. Nearly everyone got off at 14th St. Then the conductor announced "this is a QB train, next stop Canal St" ....
- A motorman of a D / Brighton Express punched for the wrong lineup at Dekalb Ave. Instead of going to Grand St, he was sent to Canal St. At Canal, he discharged his 800 passengers, ran light to Queens Plaza, turned around and ran light via the E line to a layover track at 30th St, then changed directions again and ran via the A line to 59th St / Columbus Circle. Finally, back as a D train, he ran light to 205th St and arrived nearly an hour late.
--Mark
That sounds right. No one, not even motormen and conductors, knew what was going on. You get the feeling that passengers didn't bother to look at the signs (assuming, of course, the trains were correctly marked). The QB/NX argument had some validity, as they both had the same terminals - 57th St. and Brighton Beach. That would make for an interesting trivia question: two routes starting in the same direction from one terminus and approaching the same destination from opposite directions.
The article I remember reading didn't mention which train went over the bridge instead of taking the tunnel, nor did it say where the train was supposed to wind up. There were 1,000 "astonished" passengers on board. My guess is that it was either an RR, QJ, or RJ.
You had to be there. The funny thing was, I was in the city two days before all this madness started, on Nov. 24th. It was a significant day of sorts for me, along the same lines as July 21, 1965: I experienced an express dash along CPW for the first time, on a prewar D train. And how did we get to 59th St? On an A train, of course. Sometimes I wish we had stayed on that A train; however, the way things turned out, that D train was one of maybe three prewar trains, all Ds, that I ever rode along that express run. We took another D train back from the Bronx later on that same day.
Lou: Were you there that night? There was a goodly number of the faithful on hand for that event. The first D from the Brighton to 6 Avenue, the last QT of all time, the first RR to Astoria, it wasn't until the Monday morning rush that the real fun started.
Larry,RedbirdR33
12/01/99
Speaking of the major SNAFU called Chrystie St. , I have a news broadcast on cassette of this incident as well as other notable news broadcasts (transit related). For more info use my E-mail address.
Bill Newkirk
And on this date in 1968, my Dad and I set off (to the tune of Marvin Gaye's version of "I Heard It Through The Grapevine") on a twelve-hour day trip through various IRT, IND and BMT lines.
Highlights:
We rode the Cvlver Shvttle, aboard an absolutely ANCIENT, wheezing and creaking BMT Standard, surely on its last legs.
Rode an R-1 on the "B" from 9 Ave to 62 St, then took the "N" to 59th Street, and finally on to 95th Street, exploring the end of the "RR" for the first time
After a visit to the train store in 45th Street, we circled back down to West 4th then came back on a mixed R-6/R-7 "E" train. Between 50th Street and 7th Avenue, R-6-3 #991 decided to lay down and die. They couldn't get her moving, her brakes locked. The heat was on and the car was crowded. We sat there for over half an hour. It got VERY uncomfortable in there. The crew didn't shut off the heat or turn on the fans. Finally they got the train moving at a crawl. #991's brakes were locked as they drove in push mode; never have I heard an R-type scream and screech like that. We made maybe 4MPH - REAL slow and careful to 7th Avenue, where they dumped the train. We bailed out and got a "D" train (an R32) down to 47-50th street and got treated to a NICE NEW Slant R40 on the "F" to Jamaica.
Wayne
So, this misadventure on that E train occurred during an excursion. Did anyone think to open any windows? You have to look at the bright side - at least no one got sick.
Now what do you suppose is push mode? I won't say what most of you know I would normally say. Did they bring up another train from behind to do the honors?
From the Boston Globe, 11/26/99.
Seems the recently warm days and cool nights have caused a "black rail" condition (similar to "black ice" on the highway) and that has caused braking problems on the new Green Line low-floor cars. 5 have been pulled from service until the problem gets corrected.
In addition, MBTA has also stopped payment on a $215 million, 48-car order from Breda because of questions about quality assurance.
I guess the MTA's Bombardier order is in good company, eh?
--Mark
I have sent a list of open and new locations planned for 11 and 12/1999 for the MetroCard World Web page. I am sure the page will be updated shortly. (It was down when I checked tonight)
The site you visited is permanently down.
Check out the new location at: metrocard.cjb.net. The site has been updated.
I was just asked this by my friend Ian from Toronto. I know they were developed and tested and run in Brooklyn, but I've never really thought about them running in maybe Queens or Bronx. And now thinking about it, did Staten Island ever have trolley lines? Somehow I cannot visualize trolleys in Staten Island.
Trolleys ran in all five boroughs, including Staten Island. I'm not sure when they were discontinued there, or if PCC cars ever made it to SI.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Trolley service was discontinued on Staten Island in 1934. There is very little evidence remaining of it's existence. An old trolley turn-around at Hylan Blvd & Richmond Ave is used to terminate the S59 bus. But I've never found any map of, or reference to trolley service that far down the south shore, which was a rural area in the 1930s. Some of the S.I. trolley cars ended up in Manhattan.
There is still a trolley barn at Arthur Kill Rd and Ridgefield Ave. I've only heard rumors that there may actually be equipment inside.
-Hank
That location is Arthur Kill Road and RIDGEWOOD Ave. It was actually a Trackless Trolley barn. SI had two lines of TT: AK Rd from Richmond ROAD (Richmondtown) to Tottenville (today's S74) and Victory Blvd and Richomd Ave to Travis (today's S62). The barn apparantly has vehicles belonging to the restoration at Richmondtown.
Recently (~3 years?) a Richmond Railways trolley was removed from the barn and given to the Shoreline Museum at Branford, Ct.
I did a Bahn layout of the SI trolley, TT and SIR based on a track map publised by the ERA some time ago. See my website for the DL.
As to the PCC's in other boros, as part of the Brooklyn System, the PCC's made it into Manhattan via the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row. They also made it into Queens as far as what is now LaGuardia Airport (I'm not sure about the exact streets) and I think they operated to the 1939 Fair.
While your statements about the Brooklyn PCCs operating into Manhattan via the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row and also into Flushing are correct, the PCCs could never have run to LaGuardia Airport as that route was stub-ended, with its terminal directly on top of the Grand Central Parkway on 94th Street. Some photos exist showing this terminal, with American Airlines hangers in the background - the same ones that exist today! This particular route was abandoned December 11, 1949.
The story I was told, is that it (the SI Railways car) was attached to the back of a private house. Now its in an automobile repair garage on Utica Av. (nr Av "D")in Brooklyn - weve seen it there. Why its there, and what they are trying to do with it, I dont know.
Brooklyn PCCs ran in Queens as extensions of Brooklyn lines. I especially recall they ran to the World's Fair of 1939.
They never ran on others' lines in any other borough.
Paul....Technically, the PCCs ran into Manhattan, to Park Row terminal just over the Brooklyn Bridge until March, 1950.
Carl M.
Thanks. Hole in my mitt.
Do you guys know that TARS had new cars then the BRT PCCs. They were built in 1937-38 and only ran for 10 years. hey ran on the Broadway Lines in Manhatten, and eventually went to Vienna Austria. I do not remember the numbering, maybe one of you have a TARS Roster out there.
Yes, I did know that, but the other boroughs were less evolved than Brooklyn.
Good old TARS 631 is alive and well, and we have him running on 600 volts at the Seashore Trolley Museum! (And our good friends at Branford have his brother 629... another gem!) When we restored 631 at Seashore, we returned it from its "Austria" state back to being a good Noo Yawkah.
In addition to the Park Row service, I believe there were fan trips across the Williamsburgh Bridge into the underground terminal at Delancey Street.
One regular service into Queens was for the World's Fair, but I don't know the route that was used, nor do I know if it was operated by the Board of Transportation in the summer after Unification.
There was also the Triborough Trolley Tour, but again, I don't know the route, and except for seeing photos, haven't met anyone who actually rode the Tour.
Regular PCC service was limited to the lines operating out of the barn at 9th Avenue and 20th Street (where the high school is now)--originally Seventh Avenue, Court Street, McDonald-Vanderbilt, Smith-Coney Island, and I think Erie Basin, but I may be wrong on that one. It was sort of a 'Southern Division' of streetcar routes. They were signed for all sorts of routes, the vast majority of which never used them. (A friend who's on the Trolley Museum of New York board told me he had seen one of the early sign curtains, with 44, 8, 13, and a number of others.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Again for routes see Brooklyn Trolleys Map in back. Numbers back then were different then now. The PCC Trolley only ran to the fare 1 Summer. I think what now would be the 58 Corona Ave Line and 57 Flushing Aves Lines combined
From what I've read in various publications and newsletters, the PCC World's Fair service only lasted 2 days! The dates, I believe, were April 30 and May 1 of 1939. Mayor LaGuardia (no trolley lover) would not allow the BMT to charge a double fare to the Fair. The regular fare was 5 cents, they were charging 10 cents for this very long routing.
The route began in downtown Brooklyn and traversed the Gates Ave. line to Ridgewood and the Flushing-Ridgewood line to the Fair. The latter route is now the Corona Ave. bus.
The PCCs did run on the Erie Basin line...it was signed route 28. It ran until April, 1944. The line, basically, ran on the tracks of other routes and was not a very busy service. From what I've also read (I believe in "PCCs From Coast to Coast,"), the Brooklyn PCCs were originally supposed to run on the Flatbush Ave route, but that thinking was changed at the last minute.
Carl M.
The dates, I believe, were April 30 and May 1 of 1939. Mayor LaGuardia (no trolley lover) would not allow the BMT to charge a double fare to the Fair. The regular fare was 5 cents, they were charging 10 cents for this very long routing.
That shows the City attitude toward transit in a microcosm. The City charged at an extra nickel on its "World's Fair (IND) Railroad" but wouldn't allow a private company the same.
An earlier note said "8" and "13" were on early PCC signs. At that time, those signs would have been for the two Church Avenue services.
Paul...I've seen photos of PCCs with 8 Church and 13 McDonald/Church on the rollsign. I've also seen 54 Myrtle/Court and 58 Flushing/Ridgewood. They must have put on the rollsign all of the single-ended routes, routes that did not require double-ended cars. I would love to see the rollsign listing for a 1936 Brooklyn PCC.
Carl M.
I believe that all routes that were possible at the time were put on the PCC routesigns. Remember, the BMT was planning on 500 more cars to re-equip the whole system, so future car assignments would have probably transferred the original 100 cars to other routes had the deal actually gone thru.
There's photos around of the 1948 fantrip with the last PCC in the original paint scheme (1038) running every line, with the routesign adjusted to "phantom" routes relating to the photostop location.
The TMNY may be able to give a rundown of the routes found on car 1000, and from one of the member's own oldstyle curtain.
Jan...When you refer to the TMNY, are you referring to the Transit Museum?
Carl M.
TMNY = Trolley Museum of New York
They have Clark built #1000 under restoration. One of the members of TMNY also has a personal copy of an original PCC sign curtain with all the routes on it.
The 44 Erie Basin route terminated at the same loop as 15 Crosstown. This double loop serviced the ship yard and docks. It is located 1 block away from the tracks of the Brooklyn Historic Railway, and that is where we intend to connect to go downtown. BTM #3299 is signed for Erie Basin (not a real curtain, but a computer gen facsimile).
Jan
Jan...Do you have the name of the gentleman who has the rollsign listing?
Carl M.
11/28/99
I'm glad this PCC topic surfaced. A while ago I was trying to imagine a PCC car painted in Third Ave Rwys cream and red,double ended and conduit only operation. I know TARS probably didn't have the money to invest in PCC cars,but can you imagine that sight. Probably the second PCC car to have conduit after Washington DC. But to make it interesting,make it a double ender,they were rare to begin with.
Bill Newkirk
I've read all the posts up until now (Sat 11/27, 8:45 AM) - all good info. The 100 PCCs bought for Brooklyn were the only ones ever used in New York State. In their farewell years, 1951 through 1956, they run on the #68 Coney Island Ave (discontinued exactly 44 years ago this weekend, 11/30/55), #50 McDonald Ave, and #35 Church Ave (both discontinued 10/31/56). When introduced in 1936 they were an immediate success. In 1938 the BMT wanted to buy 500 more PCCs, but Mayor LaGuardia nixed the deal because he was adamantly opposed to trolleys. At that time the city was negotiating to buy the BMT, and LaGuardia made it clear the city would not take title to any trolleys beyond the ones already on the property. So when the city acquired the BMT in June 1940, it was clear that the entire Brooklyn trolley system would be converted to 100% bus (which happened in 1960 when the trolley coach routes were discontinued).
A senior railfan with whom I have spoken recently, and whose memory and fact accuracy are generally excellent, states that a Brooklyn PCC was tested late one evening in early 1937 on the New York and Queens County Railway/Steinway Lines, then returned to the Brooklyn system that same evening. He has given me the routing, and stated that the car operated to the western end of the NY&Q/SL system. Anyone care to venture the routing? I have the answer, but let's see if others can come up with it. Regrettably, no known photos or other evidence of this one time trip exist other than memory.
Also, the then-new (in 1939) 600-series Third Avenue Railway System cars operated for at least one day on the Steinway Street line of the Steinway Lines. Until just a few years ago, this was, however, considered rumor and not fact. But then I uncovered three photographs of the cars on Steinway Street, the only ones known to exist, and two these will be published in the upcoming large revision (updated text and hundeds of photos, most never published or seen before) of Vincent Seyfried's book on the New York & Queens/Steinway Lines to be published tentatively next year, fifty years after the original Seyfried book was released. Five cars were used - all in series number order. Which five were they (the correct answer will be given later on, after I've received some answers from others).
Joe..I would guess: Any of the downtown Brooklyn routes to Ridgewood, then Flushing-Ridgewood, Junction Blvd to Northern Blvd...left on Northern Blvd to Long Island City..then over the Queensboro Bridge to the 59th St. undergound terminal.
Another routing: the Crosstown line over the old Manhattan Ave. bridge into LIC at Vernon-Jackson Aves., up Jackson Ave to Bridge Plaza and then over the Q bridge to Manhattan. I'm not sure he switches were set for such a a move at this location, however.
Carl M.
Hi Carl:
Thanks for your response, but the connecting switches at Northern and Junction were from Junction north to Northern east, thus making your suggested routing impossible.
And, as to your suggested west Queens routing, this, too, would not have been possible as there were no connecting switches betwen the BQT and SL, although the tracks did physically cross each other (a small section of track from the former BQT loop, which is located above the Vernon-Jackson #7 Flushing Line IRT subway station, is still visible in Vernon Boulevard).
Nice try - how about another!
Hi Joe....Not really knowing which were the Steinway lines (except for Steinway St, Northern Blvd., etc.), I don't know if I could venture another intelligent guess. Unless, it was on the old Meeker or Greenpoint Aves. routes that went over the Penny and Greenpoint Bridges into Queens...except, I'm not sure if it was physically possible? I give up, Please tell me.
Can you answer another question? Do you have an original listing of the Brooklyn PCCs when delivered in 1936? I've been trying for years to track this information down. Thanks.
Carl M.
Carl, the information is on pg. 180 of An American Original: The PCC Car by Seymour Kashin and Harre Demoro.
99 cars #1001-1099 from St. Louis in 1936-37
1 car #1000 from Clark in 1937
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No guess, but this employee of that line (NY&QC Ry) is very interested in this info.
You mentioned BQT ... in case everyone doesn't know BQT refers to Brooklyn & Queens Transit, a part of BMT/BRT.
Mr t__:^)
To Thurston: You were an employee of the NY&QCR? May I ask what year you started and in what capacity? And when did you retire? Perhaps you'll be able to spot any errors in my upcoming NY&QCR/SL book before publication. And, since you were an employee, could you describe the special cermony and date marking the end of NY&QCR service?
Joe, Sorry I'm not that O-L-D. I was speaking as a CURRENT employee of that company which is now DBS (doing business as) Queens Surface Corp.
It is interesting to learn that several of the old trolley companies are still around as bus companies, e.g. Jamaica Bus.
Mr t__:^)
Well, your post certainly made it appear that way! I was just taking you at your printed word. It is possible some NY&Q/SL employees are still with us.
If I understood Thurston's post, his company is still New York & Queens County, and its current name of Queens Surface is simply a DBA.
If that's what he meant, his post is totally accurate and he is not necessarily superannuated.
WCBS AM has been reporting of a woman set on fire, later changed to set herself on fire aboarda 2 train last night. A transit employee saw this and called for help. The woman is in the hosptal in Critical condition. Any more info?
Not only is my beloved WCBS Newsradio-88 reporting it, Subway-Buff, but it made the news on CBS/Infinity all-news station WBZ Newsradio 1030 here in Boston this afternoon!
It also made the 11pm newscast of Fox 25 as well, with some video coverage as well.
(I'm in Stoughton, Mass today visiting relatives; would have loved to connect w/ you, Todd, but familial obligations won't give me the time...)
--Mark
I read an article about it on www.CNN.com
They were unsure of many details, including whether the lady set herself on fire or whether she was set on fire. They are searching for a witness, but have a very lacking description.
The news report said she may have set herself on fire in the last car of a southbound #2 train as it approached Freeman Street station. The incident was reported at about 1:00AM. Station personnel at Freeman Street put out the fire with an hand extinguisher; the lady was seriously burned but is still alive, thankfully.
Wayne
I read in the Daily Snooze that it was another person who set her on fire as she slept in the last car. Funny how that it didn't shock me, as there have been similar cases of this happening in recent years. I remember a man was burned to death on the uptown IND platform at Tremont Ave. a few years back by some young punks who thought it would be "funny".
The R-68A's like the R-38's constitute a relatively small group of cars. I don't usually ride them since I prefer the sixty footers and will only ride a seventy-five footers when I have to. I know that I've had some less than flattering comments about the R-68 and their lack of speed. How do you think the R-68's compare to them.
Larry,RerdbirdR33
well larry redbird i didnt like the R38 HIPPOS
as usual !!!! NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!????
give me an old r1-9..to r38 anyday!! slant r 40s too !! Q LINE
my favorite the flushing # 7 line !! thank you !
Q
TYPO! The R-38 is not a Hippo and has railfan windows. So does the R-42.
The R42 is my favorite 60' car, and I wish it would be set free from the maddening speed constraints the BMT Eastern division puts on it. I was on one assigned to the N line during the WillyB closing, and those things move as fast as the R40!
"The R42 is my favorite 60' car, and I wish it would be set free from the maddening speed constraints the BMT Eastern
division puts on it. I was on one assigned to the N line during the WillyB closing, and those things move as fast as the R40!"
I heard the R42's are faster than the R40's. Is that myth true?
N Broadway Line
We'll never know, since they are on some of the SLOWEST lines in the city. They do zip along Jamaica Ave, and through the 14. St. tubes.
I got an opportunity to ride them on both the N and Q, and they ran as fast as the R40 slants do between 34th and W4th.
I did notice on occasion some R-42’s running on the Q line on the IND Sixth Avenue tracks, if that’s any consolation.
"R38 HIPPOS"
What????? Are you smoking something? I know you didn't mean to say the 38's are slow and doesn't have a railfan window?
The R38 use to be the fastest in the system until they slowed them down tremondously. Even faster than the R40's everyone seem to cherish.
N Broadway Line
well larry redbird i didnt like the R68 HIPPOS
as usual !!!! NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!????
give me an old r1-9..to r38 anyday!! slant r 40s too !! Q LINE
my favorite the flushing # 7 line !! thank you !
Q
well larry redbird i didnt like the R68 HIPPOS
as usual !!!! NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!????
give me an old r1-9..to r38 anyday!! slant r 40s too !! Q LINE
my favorite the flushing # 7 line !! thank you !
Q
well larry redbird i didnt like the R68 HIPPOS
as usual !!!! NO RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!????
give me an old r1-9..to r38 anyday!! slant r 40s too !! Q LINE
my favorite the flushing # 7 line !! thank you !
Q
To me, it seems, the R68A seem to have a bit better pick-up that their R68 Brethren. They also have a slightly different feel to them, almost like a smoother, quieter feel. Perhaps it is the difference in manufacturers. I also like the Black Floors in some of them - not all of the cars have them - they look MUCH better in contrast to the bright colors and finishes inside the car.
I don't mind an R68A at all. I don't mind the R68 EITHER - I just wish they were a little faster. Both are nice, comfortable subway cars, smooth riding and relatively quiet compared to the older cars.
The R68A A/C seems to work a little better than the R68.
I give R68A a B, R68 a B minus.
Wayne
I give R68A a B, R68 a B minus.
That's a hard one. They need more firewater in their gas tank! I'd give them a C-.
those pigs could not stop if you paid them in slop.
Yes, Yes, Wayne! These cars were operated by the Q before they switch them to the B. And they were very fast. I was really sorry that they switch these cars. On the other hand, the D train always used the slower version.
Not really. When the R68As were new they ran on the D first then Q then N and finally the B. The R68s ran on the N and Q at first, and now a split between the B, D, N, and S.
The first R68's ran on the D train, starting in October 1986 (the Broadway leg of the D, the 6th Ave. D was still cursed with numerous dark R42 cars). As the D line filled up, they were also put into service along the Q line starting in January 87. The 2500-2700 series made up the bulk of both lines. It was at this time the TA put the R16 out to pasture.
Shortly after the N/R terminal switch in May 87, the 2800 series R68's went into service on the new N line, where most still reside today.
The Kawasaki R68A fist started showing up on the 6th Ave/Concourse half of the D line in February 1988. When both D trains were re-connected in 12/88, both R68 and R68A cars made up the entire D line. As more R68A's arrived through the summer of 89, they gradually replaced the R42 cars assigned to the 6th Ave. "Q" right after the north side of the Manhattan Bridge opened up. When the last of the R68A cars were put into service, the R10 was retired.
In 1993, all of the R68A cars were moved off the D and on to the N and Q lines, for reasons I don't know about. They have sinced been moved to the B, starting in 10/97, where they exist today.
This is the unnoficial viewings of a railfan/hookey player, and the dates aren't exact. I would assume Larry Redbird knows exact dates.
In my memory, all R68A cars were moved of the D line and on to the N and Q lines in 1995, instead of 1993.
Chaohwa
Perhaps, but I remember that the Q line was entirely R68A by late 1994.
I spotted a train of R-68A's on the northbound version of the D earlier today. I assume this is just an exception due to the B's not running today and that this R-68A train will return from the D to the B on Monday.
Because of the split D service on the weekends, the northern portion of the D probably has more put ins than it normally does on a regular Saturday.
That's probably about right. I remember them being switched in the fall, and it was before the Manhattan Bridge work that began in May. (I had wished they had waited until after that so the D could display the 34th St reading, which is not on the older R-68 signs, plus, I felt the 68A's should stay in Concourse where they started out.)
The reason I heard for the switch is that this was when the 68A's were being linked into 4 car sets and Concourse couldn't handle that then. Shortly after that, when the 68 linking was projected to be completed by 1999, there were rumors of the D getting back all the old 32's and 42's. But I guess the problem at Concourse has bee resolved. They should send the 68A's back to Concourse, then. I hope they do during the next Manhattan Bridge change in a couple of years.
I know I was nearing the end of my HS career when the Q got the R68a, so it must be around 1994-1995.........
3TM.
42St. Connection to the Q66. The next station will be 48St. Stand clear...........
Of late I have seen some R-68A’s running on the D line, conversely there have also been some R-68’s on the B. Comme çi, comme ça, as they say in French.
On several occasions around 1987-8, post 'N/R' switch, R-68s were on the 'F', while simultaneously R-46s were running on the 'N'. This may have been due to the GOs of the R-32s that was happening around that time.
Yes, I remember that well. In September and October, nearly one-third of all Astoria N service was made up of R46 cars, the only time that I've ever seen these cars assigned to a line that doesn't run on Queens Blvd. There were also a few R30 "redbirds" assigned to the Queens Blvd. R train.
Sluggish, unnecessarily bright interiors and horrific scratchitti on it's windows. But it's reliable, comfortable, and quiet (great if you're a straphanger who always uses a walkman like me).
Ditto for the R68A on the B line. The only other fault I have with this car is the excessivly large side roll signs, which render the window seats they tower above as useless to those of us who are tall. I cant ride in a window seat underneath one of these signs without my skull getting banged into the edge of the sign all the time.
I do love that "black" flooring that some R68A's have, and wish the whole fleet had them. It certainly eases the glare problem from all that exposed stainless steel in the interior.
If you don't mind a nice, leisurely 30 mph express run along CPW on a D train, the R-68s are fine. If you like speed, speed, and more speed of R-10 proportions as I do, then the R-68s are not your cup of tea. IMHO, Tim Allen's favorite slogan from Home Improvement would be most appropriate: more power. I don't know if I'd want to let him try to juice up a subway car, though, even if he insisted he could make it go faster.
I was driving home from hollywood calif on the 134 FREEWAY .....
looked across the los angeles river and there they were !!!
4 BEAUTIFUL NYC R 30 CARS !!!! i almost had an accident on the
freeway before i turned to the 210 freeway !!!
now if they will let me get a photo shot of these classic REDBIRD
PAINTED R 30 CARS !!! whish me luck !!!
They've only been there since last year. They are on the private property of an independent studio company, and the guard there is NOT friendly. I've already asked permission to photograph them and was told to stay away from the property. Oh well.
There are also two blue/silver cars there that are heavily grafittied; the only number identification I could make out was "85" but the second two digits were covered with grafitti.
Someone did post photos of them on a web page in October.
The cars were originally brought out from NYC four years ago to do the filming of Money Train and Die Hard With A Vengeance. There were approximately a dozen of them brought out; there were also some wooden mockups made, which had extra windows in the cab ends. Why they did that, I have no idea. It just didn't look right. The wooden mockups were all destroyed about two years ago from what sources tell me, so the cars you see are REAL subway cars from NY.
Be more precise, please. Exactly where are they located? I'm going to try and see them. Guards be damned.
Fred, it ain't worth being a jailbird just to see a Redbird!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can either park illegally -- and very unsafely -- on the side of the I-5 freeway just south of the 134 across the river from the Gene Autry Museum. I think the fine, if you live through stopping there, and get ticketed by CHP is $271.00.
If you go to the front entrance of the studio company where the guard shack is, complete with armed guards, you can't see a thing because the building is in the way.
You can always "fake a breakdown" by quickly pulling over and letting the air out of a tire (make sure you have a fully inflated spare) and I don't think the CHP will fine you for "breaking down".
Wayne
Not in that area you couldn't!! There is NO "emergency" strip on the sides of the freeway. The right and left most traffice lanes are up against concrete barriers delineating the sides of the freeway. It would be unsafe and downright stupid to stop in the traffic lane just to look over the river at a bunch of junk subway cars. The subway cars are at least 750' away from the freeway anyway, and all you can see is from the windows up as they sit on a low-lying lot.
That's the way they do things out here in California -- the build the freeway four lanes in each direction, and then a few years later they squeeze two more lanes in without any regard for the need for an emergency lane.
I agree with you. The R30s are a bunch of junk subway cars.
Well, nowadays they are. I really didn't mean they wre junk when they were running. I did ride them occasionally in NYC, but can't say anything for their quality or condition then.
I was just referring to their actual status nowadays sitting in various junkyards, move studio backlots, etc.
[They've only been there since last year. They are on the private property of an independent studio company, and the guard there is NOT friendly. I've already asked permission to photograph them and was told to stay away from the property. Oh well.]
You might have better luck when a different guard's on duty. A film studio's hardly a high-security location like CIA headquarters, so you might have been rebuffed not because of company policy, but merely because that $6-per-hour guard was being a schmuck.
Weekends may be the best time to get permission to enter the property and take some photos. During the business day, even a cooperative guard may be reluctant to admit you because management might see, while at night the guards are likely to be more suspicious. But on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon, you might get a better reception.
The place is closed and locked up tighter than a drum on weekends.
And it's been the same security guard three times when I've driven up to the front gate -- twice I didn't bother stopping after politely asking the first time. Besides, those $6.00 an hour security guards always feel real important when armed, as Inoted the guy at that studio was.
I don't give a shit WHAT is on their back lot, if it is on their property, I am not going to risk going to jail over it. It is THEIR property, not mine. Just because I am a subway enthusiast doesn't give me the right to go on other peoples' property because they bought some junk subway cars and stored them there.
Nor am I going to stop on one of the busiest freeways in the area just to take a picture of the damn things. My life is more important.
And sois my wallet -- notonly is it unsafe to stop on the freeway, but it is also illegal. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just tell the cop if he stops that my car broke down. B.S. Those R-30's are NOT worth worrying about. I've seen them, that's good enough.
> There are also two blue/silver cars there that are heavily
> grafittied; the only number identification I could
> make out was "85" but the second two digits were covered with
> grafitti.
I can give you the numbers-- 8322 and probably 8517. Used in an awful new movie End of Days. Also used was a 78xx car. The movie has an interior scene in one of the cars, and then a "chase" scene with the three cars. I think the R30's were used for the interiors, and 8322 and 78xx were used for interiors. I couldn't tell if the 78xx was made up or real. I don't show any 78xx cars on the scraplist. (Stef?)
-Dave
R26/28s being used for props? Not yet... Give it a little time, and that might just be the case. If anything, the 78xx might be a "madeup" car.
-Stef
All 100 of the 78xx cars are still in service - in fact, NONE of the R26 or R28 have bit the dust yet, rusty as they are. God Bless 'em, every one.
Wayne
i agree god bless the r26-28 cars this shows proff the older cars were made better stronger longer !!
i was driving along the 134 210 freeway and there they were r 30
or older types redbird painted and almost had an accident while
driving on the freeway !!!
sitting on a back prop lot !!!!
salaamallah@yahoo,com
Amen to that. Love those Redbirds! And I did manage to greet just about every train of Redbirds I saw pulling into any given station with "hello, Redbirds" during my last visit to the city.
It would have be a dufferent 8322 as that was a GE R30. All those cars (8250 to 8411) were overhauled in CI shops and became the beloved Redbirds of the Eastern Division in the late 80's.
I'm not sure if someone mentioned it and I missed it, but you gotta love a train that goes from Chambers St. to Penn Station via the Times Square.
Okay, I finally did it. I actually found an afternoon with NOTHING planned, and nothing came up at the last minute, so I drove the 40 miles from where I live (Tustin, California) to Glendale. As there are NO safe ways to drive near the lot where the four NYCTA cars are, I parked where I could do so safely and legally, and then walked over a mile down the bank of the Los Angeles River to get close to the cars and take some decent photographs of them.
The two blue/silver cars are so heavily grafittied that number identification was impossible. However, one of the cars has a white-on-black number "85xx" but the second half if covered with paint. There is a problem with this -- the number "plate" is NOT in a usual NYCTA location (i.e. at the roofline at car ends, or along the "belt" line of the car) It is just about two feet below the roofline level, and centered on a panel between a door and window. The way things are done in the movie industry, they may or may NOT have used the original car number (see below).
The two red painted cars are numbered "8275" and "8401". Car "8275" has been cut in two pieces, at the second door set from the cab end. Its trucks are sitting separately on the lot next to the fence. The "M" logo has been painted over with silver paint and is now bare. All the cars are just resting on their wheels in hard dirt, no wheel chocks, rails, etc. Car "8401" had the same thing done, except it has "RTA" in light blue block italic lettering, and "New York Rapid Transit Authority" in small letters around the circumference of the logo. Another interesting item I noticed when photographing the cab end of "8401" -- the decals usually found on the inside of the train operators's cab door (as I saw through the zoom lens) said "8 79". One digit missing. I now wonder if the "8401" is REALLY the 8401 or was it 8079, 8179, 8279, 8379, or 8479 -- or if that door was just switched. The number plates on "8275" and "8401" both looked as though they have been removed and replaced; they were warped and bulging from their mountings. The red paint job on "8275" really looks crappy, like it was brush painted -- was this how it was done at NYCTA? Maybe the studio did a repainting of the car. The interiors were still the tan that I remember NYCTA using in the early 1980's.
Now, as I mentioned in previous posts, I thought the cars were property of Barwick Independent Studios, and their security people were less than friendly. I was wrong about the owner -- BIS does NOT own the cars. They are actually on the property of a smaller Warner Brothers lot, a facility that was built within the past couple years, and was full of other production equipment. And guess what, another not-so-friendly security guard. He came out and watched me photograph the cars, and when I started walking back towards my truck, I guess he called Glendale P.D., as they met me where my truck was and questioned what I was doing. Fortunately, the P.D. was quite understanding and didn't seem to care much after talking with that officer for a few minutes. (He even seemed interested in the subway cars, so I wrote down the URL for N.Y. Subway Resources for him, and he said he was going to look it over!)
Hopefully, the photographs I took will turn out well. I will make them available for everyone to view once I get them processed in the next few days (perhaps send them to Mr. Pirmann to post on the NYSR pages.)
the transit police here in los angeles arent any better either !!
try taking a photograph of the red blue and green lines with a
tripod and you will be surrounded by los angeles metro transit
police !!
my last visit to new york i was not even bothered once by anybody
taking vidieos and stills with and without tripods and vidioes with
tripods as well !!!
but to be harrassed for taking pictures of subway cars props is
absolutely insane !!!
thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com subway photogfrapher !!!
Until recently, it was illegal to take photographs in the NYC Subway without a permit.
Hey, Eu! (sorry about the play on words there!)
I assume that you can take pictures in the system w/o a permit?
I sometimes have a problem or two with an occasional Station Booth Attendent. I suspect that has more to do with their own feelings of not wanting to be in some strangers' photographs than with actual NYCT protocol.
I would think the best call of action would be for the railfan/photographer to ask permission to shoot in a particular station from an on duty Attendent or Station Manager just to make things "kosher."
Doug aka BMTman
You don't need to ask for permission or have a permit anymore. I don't know about tripods, but you MUST have a permit for flash photography.
Well, that explains the problems I had with some Station Booth Attendents -- I was using flash in all my instances where I caused some ire from TA personnel. (However, they never made clear why -- just got them over the PA saying 'no photographs' or 'you can't do that here').
Doug aka BMTman
The issue is safety - if you flash at an oncoming train you can momentarily affect the motorman's vision.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, some sourpuss did that to me at Main Street back on November 8. Pfooey! I was taking a picture of TILES on the wall, for goodness sake! Since when do tiles have eyes (in a station other than Chambers Street-H&M)? As long as I am not firing the flash in the face of the motorman while he/she is operating the train (which is a No-No), what the heck is the big deal? It's going to take more than THAT kind of response to keep me from completing my appointed mission.
Wayne
Say, Wayne, I did get the photos from my second roll developed from our excursion. They're the ones which begin from the Franklin Ave. shuttle. They came out pretty good, considering the low light that was available. Even my tunnel shot under Eastern Pkwy looks good. That camera never ceases to amaze me. Now I just need to get the first roll developed...
Doug: The reason we say no flash is that most are indiscriminate photo shooters and might shoot the booth (forbidden). I too challenge people I do not know by sight- do not shoot the booth and no flash. If I know the person by sight I just advise not to shoot the booth.
When Wayne accompanies me on a photo shoot, anytime we are near the booth I'll remiond Wayne not to take a picture of the booth. If the Station Agent seems nervous I'll tell them that we will nbot take a picture of the booth.
(You cant shoot the booth for security concerns and over the thought that you could blind the Station Agent with the flash.)
Tripods are banned ( except for major movie shoots which will usually have a supervisory (or management) presence. I have seen movei shoots from a distance and even they are told what and when they can use their lights.
Another thing i forget never used tripods & you don't need a permit for flash photography. You need to wake up subbuffs because i never have problem with MTA workers.
James Bond Jr. (Known an 0007)
I believe self-contained flash is OK (opinion on this varies) AS LONG AS YOU DON'T FLASH in the face of the train operator. You need a permit for lights on stands.
The best bet is to be judicious about what you take pictures of, and don't "shoot the booth". Also try and keep people out of your photo (by waiting until the train in the station departs). I've had a few problems in my day, but they are few and far between.
Wayne
I SHJOT WITH A TRIPOD vidieo and stll shots mostly without a falsh
and avoided people and the transit police ignored me and left me alone !!
of cource i was totally out of the way of trains and people !!
Wrong...use of a flash in the transit system is illegal. No permit you (as an individual) could get would allow you to use a flash in the subway.
David
[I believe self-contained flash is OK (opinion on this varies) AS LONG AS YOU DON'T FLASH in the face of the train operator. You need a permit for lights on stands.]
No light stands, either, please. They're illegal, too, as are tripods.
David
[I believe self-contained flash is OK (opinion on this varies) AS LONG AS YOU DON'T FLASH in the face of the train operator. You need a permit for lights on stands.]
No light stands, either, please. They're illegal, too, as are tripods.
If you can't use a flash, lightstand or tripod, how do you get a decent picture underground? I myself either use a tripod or a flash.
You yourself are subject to arrest if you do :-)
I usually lean against a column, if one's handy. Otherwise, I've gotten pretty good at standing still through a long exposure (1/4 second's not even a challenge anymore, with 64 ASA film).
David
[If you can't use a flash, lightstand or tripod, how do you get a decent picture underground? I myself either use a tripod or a flash.]
I experimented with ASA 1600 film the last time I took some shots - other than the color being a bit off (and not too far off at that) the only problems were the result of this photographer's lousy composition.
I finished the roll on the el at 125th and the color there wasn't terribly true either; now I know why I prefer K25 or K64!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I personally used 800 speed Kodak Max film during our excursion, and no flash. Sometimes you just have to open the lens up all the way, brace the camera, and hope for the best. It's paid off for me more than once.
I have a big problem with those who take my pictures with or without a tripod. I never get to see them. The next time you photograph two yellow cars with S-01 or S-02 in the middle, I expect kickbacks!
First of all, taking pictures in the NYC Subway is not illegal & you don need permit. #1. Never take pictures in front of people & if you do than it might get you invole, #2. Look around if you get a best shot of taking pictures of subway if there is no people, #3 Never used the flash underground in front of train while taking pictures. #4 You can us with or w/o flash for taking picturs in the middle & back of subway cars.
James Bond Jr. (Known an 0007)
my last visit to new york i was not even bothered once by anybody
taking vidieos and stills with and without tripods and vidioes with
tripods as well !!!
You were lucky. W/O a tripod is OK, but if you use one, you would be asked for a photo permit because, amongst other reasons, the use of a tripod is a tripping hazard. You're not supposed to use "ancillary lighting or equipment" w/o a permit.
--Mark
well you see you just dont seem to get it!!! the key is to stay out of the way
go to the ends of stations shoot on off hours etc.. thank you ...
Ummm, I do get it because I have many hours of video on the NYC subway.
The rule is, if you're on NYC Transit property (this includes station platforms), even if you're out of the way shooting off hours, if you're using ancillary equipment while taking your shots, you are subject to being asked to produce a photography permit by any NYC Transit personnel.
--Mark
I think the R-30 cars were purchased by Columbia Pictures from NYCTA for "Money Train". I would assume that they still have ownership rights over the cars, but perhaps they rent them out to other studios when they are in need of New York subway equipment?
Also -- and perhaps I have already asked this in an earlier post -- if and when the studios are "finished" with using the R-30's is there any chance the cars could be returned to service on the Los Angeles subway system? Or are the two systems so incompatable that this would be impossible?
Doug aka BMTman
Right you are about the cars being originally purchased by Columbia (which IS Sony) -- but when the temporary fake subway was dismantled, the cars were either sold off to newer owners, or scrapped at a year about 50 miles east of Los Angeles.
I am not really sure if there is anything compatible between NYCTA cars and the LACMTA subway other than the 4'8-1/2" track guage. The third rails in Los Angeles appear to be up higher and farther from the rails. Not sure if the platform height is the same either; the LA cars "appear" to sit a few inches lower but it may just be a matter of perception.
I would think that the security guard(s) at that property are being real ball busters because of something overlooked on earlier postings -- the insurance factor.
The studios don't want people roaming around their property only to get themselves injured photographing currently PRIVATELY-OWNED subway equipment. The cars are considered an INVESTMENT (and probably an expensive one), so they are only looking out for the usual bottom line, covering their backsides (ie = $$$$$).
Now, IMHO, what that studio SHOULD DO is rent the cars out as a tourist attraction/oddity (or they can do this themselves at that location). They could be making some more money by advertising that they have genuine New York Subway cars and charge a fee to get your picture taken posing with them or standing in the T/O's cab. I think this would fly and make all parties happy.
Doug aka BMTman
Fellows, all you have to do is get security guard costumes, the same as the ones the guards there use, false employee I.D.'s and just say you're a new worker while hiding your miniature camera in your pocket. That's what Lucy and Ethel would've done!!
Lucy and Ethel would somehow get at least two of the cars started and onto the main line towards downtown Los Angeles.
And then Lucy would pull the emergency cord...
...with a cup stuck on her head, no doubt. I can hear Ricky right now: "Lucy, you got some 'splainin' to do!!!"
There's always more than one way to skin the cat, or so the saying goes.
I think I took the best route out to get the cars photographed, by finding a place to park my vehicle safely and legally, and walk the remaining distance to the location, staying on public property (i.e. the river bike trail). Once there it was quite easy to photograph the cars from public property as the private property on which they sat had a low fence, albeit with concertina wire on the top.
I really can't fault the security guard for calling the city P.D., he was just doing his job. The city P.D. officer that spoke with me was quite understanding once I explained what I was doing. I would think that every person on this board would think with suspicion if they saw someone walking through a public alley behind their house and photographing what is in their private backyard. I know *I* would give it some thought if I saw someone doing that at my property.
And, Doug hit the nail on the head -- more and more companies are afraid of insurance lawsuits, so of course they are going to do what it takes to cover their butts in these sorts of situations.
[I really can't fault the security guard for calling the city P.D., he was just doing his job. The city P.D. officer that spoke with me was quite understanding once I explained what I was doing. I would think
that every person on this board would think with suspicion if they saw someone walking through a public alley behind their house and photographing what is in their private backyard. I know *I* would give it some thought if I saw someone doing that at my property.]
In my view, the guard was a schmuck (and the "just doing my job" line has been thoroughly discredited since the Nuremburg Trials). You're correct that photographing someone's back yard would be rather suspicious. But you were photographing a business, not a residence, and that makes a big difference. It moreover was a business that contained items (the subway cars) that quite naturally would attract attention.
It really sounds like the schmuck was trying to make himself useful at his $6-per-hour job.
well thats the point i was once a security guard !! but when i was in
new york THE TRANSIT POLICE LEFT ME ALONE!!
and this is with occasional flashes
and tripods how about that !!! eh ?"?
salaamallah@yahoo.com
You should have been arrested. I would have pressed charges. So many of you out there that point and shoot flashes into the front of an arriving train and don't realize that we have hundreds of people relying on nothing more than my eyesight. How about that !!! eh ?"?
What is the newest version of the Subway Map? Is it still September '99 version?
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
i agree with you on the number # 4 train saw only a few redbirds on
it !! however occasionly saw railfans windows on the number # 3
but with r 62 looking type new trains !!
is the number 4 a good railfan view worth vidieotaping ??
thank you answer me at salaamallah@yahoo.com
Yes, the September 1999 is still the most current.
Allan, thanks for your information.
Chaohwa
Last night on ER they were in a CTA 3200 car. When Carol had a problem a passenger wanted to run and pull the cord. I know that they can do that in NYC but I don't remember that CTA cars had a cord. Whats up Do they or do they not? I know the 3200's have an intercom to the operator.
Such stupid people like that cause all of the cord problems. Maybe if they had a brain they'd realize it's a lot easier for someone to get off at the next stop and get platform help than being stuck in the tunnel.
"....than being stuck in the tunnel."
Or Viaduct.
Last night on ER they were in a CTA 3200 car. When Carol had a problem a passenger wanted to run and pull the cord. I know that they can do that in NYC but I don't remember that CTA cars had a cord. Whats up Do they or do they not? I know the 3200's have an intercom to the operator.
Yes, all CTA cars have a cord, even though they are not marked as such. The movie "The Fugitive" shows Harrison Ford's character pulling the cord during a fight scene on the train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[Last night on ER they were in a CTA 3200 car. When Carol had a problem a passenger wanted to run and pull the cord. I know that they can do that in NYC but I don't remember that CTA cars had a cord. Whats up Do they or do they not? I know the 3200's have an intercom to the operator. - Joe M.}
[Yes, all CTA cars have a cord, even though they are not marked as such. The movie "The Fugitive" shows Harrison Ford's character pulling the cord during a fight scene on the train. - David Cole]
In answer to Joe's question, I would like to clarify 'the cord' The cord is actually a 'red ball' at the end of a lever that is connected to the door - each doorway has one mounted in the panel above the top of the two door leaves.
All railcars and buses have the same red ball or emergency exit device. To find the reason for this, one must go back to 1950, when a crowded State Street PCC collided with a gasoline truck on the southside. The result was thirty-three passengers being killed. Evidence was that passengers could not get the 'blinker' type doors open and were trapped in the ensuring blaze.
Thus, all passenger carrying equipment has this feature.
On the rail lines, pulling the red ball will not only open the door, but stop the train as well. I've only used this device once since living here in Chicago. I was on a Ravenswood on Saturday afternoon and a mother and her child got seperated at the Rockwell station. The child, inside the departing train, started screaming when he saw he was being seperated from his mother. I jumped up and 'pulled the cord' to stop the train. Our car was not off the platform yet, and I re-united the child with his mother. I knew enough to toggle the closing switch that operate the door and off we went. When we got to Kimball, I talked to the operator and told her it was me, and that I was sorry to stop the train, and went on to share the story. I told her I would not have done it if we were on the elevated structure.
BTW - a note to Joe M. Hopefully your project is going well.
- Jim K.
Chicago
>>I knew enough to toggle the closing switch that operate the door
>>and off we went.
Was this the same switch used by the conductors? I always assumed a key was required to operate those.
There's a switch located somewhere up near the base of the cord that allows the door to be closed after the cord has been pulled. It is not very easy to find, as I have tried several times to no avail. :-)
There is also a key-operated switch on the exterior of each car, down around knee level towards the cab end, that allows personel to open the door and enter the train.
Keep in mind these are different than the controls used by the conductor during normal operations. The switches mentioned here operate only a single door, while the conductor's controls operate all doors on the train.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I have used the cord a couple of times. I have been the only person exiting at some stations like Austin/Congress on the Forest Park branch of the Blue Line. The operator forgets to open the doors and just says doors are closing and is ready to take off.
When the stations are spaced apart like the mile and 1/2 between Austin and Cicero and when train service isn't frequent I don't want to walk that extra mile and 1/2!
Recently with the CTA training it's employees to be "Friendly" to the passengers and acually learn the train or bus route they are operating or working on, I haven't seen this happen recently.
BJ
Thats why we need conductors.
How come the track arrangement @47-50 southbound tacks? My guess is that it will be easier to switch tracks after they leave the station since the B,D,F trains all run on 53Stand it will be kind of hard doing it right before the station???????? I think I confused my own self.................
3TM
Court Sq. Transfer to the E,F, and 7 trains. G train to Little Neck Pkwy. 42St is next. Stand Clear...........
No room for a crossover north of the station. The crossover between local and express is actually a flying junction (trains cross not at grade) south of 47th ST.
--Mark
Is there anywhere I can get a picture of two of the Green Hornet car that ran on the Sea Beach Line in the 30's and early 40's? In color would be better. I've heard those cars were really sleek looking. Is there anyone one out there that can feed my any info on this?
Did the Green Hornet run on any lines except Fulton Street and Brighton-Franklin? I've never seen a picture of it in use with anything other than a '13' on the front end, though it would have had a '7' when operating on Brighton-Franklin. Does anyone know if the Green Hornet operated through to Brighton Beach or Coney Island (local or express) when it was in '7' service? Or the dates of service on each line?
BTW, there's a delivery photo of the Green Hornet signed with a '1' in Fischler's "The Subway."
I think the only unusual equipment to run on the Sea Beach was the City's R-1s when first delivered.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Subway Cars of the BMT has about 18 pages of pictures and text on the Green Hornet. It was written by James Greller, published by Xplorer Press. It cost about $35. I bought my copy a while back from the Transit Museum. There are no pictures in color, but it does have many pictures of the car in the process of construction, while in initial public display, and in service on the 13 and 7. They also have it signed with #3 and # 4 but I suspect these are just pictures of the cars when they were on display.
I was really surprised to learn that they had green leather seats, door chimes ( 1934 ), they had full width cabs on either end with the capability of one man train operation. They had built in rear view mirrors on the side so that the motorman could see the opposite side of the train. The train built by Pullman for the BMT had 5 sections that were articulated and with a Triplex style articulated joint section. Sections could be added or subtracted up to a limit of 17 sections. Each section was about 33 feet long. Each unit had only one set of doors on each side.
It's funny, I've had this book a couple of years now, looked through it once or twice, but only now have I really read the section on the Green Hornet.
Fred, the book has more than 20 pages on the Triplex a car that I think you harbor some fondness for.
"I was really surprised to learn that they had green leather seats..."
Really? leather? Do you mean vinyl?
Really? leather? Do you mean vinyl?
In 1934, they used real leather. There was no vinyl back then.
As a matter of fact, there are several photos of Triplex trains sporting #4 signs. There is also a photo of one of the two units which collided in 1955. Talk about a clash of titans! Ka-boooom!!
I have seen discussion here on several occasions of subway simulators for the home computer. Id like to know if anyone can tell me if any of these are available for the Macintosh, and if so which ones?
Thanks for any assistance.
Please also tell me! I have a macintosh too!
Peace Out
-Clayton
Is there one for windows? I would love to see it
Any body know where i can find the thumbnail web page like dave pirmann's page. what is the URL so i can put some pictures on the thumbnail web page. Thank You & have a good night Subbuffs
Millennium Man 2000
The thumbnail webpage? If you are talking about somewhere on nycsubway.org then you should be asking Webmaster - Dave Pirmann directly. Not posting the request here.
In some pictures of Franklin Station on the Brighton Franklin page, it shows part of the northbound platform in good repair, with a windscreen and people walking on it, it says that this was used as the exit just before the shuttle closed and the el structure was already closed. I don't remember any of this, I didn't ride the shuttle on it's VERY last day (or last month for that matter). How did the exiting at reopened north platform work before the shuttle closed on July 24, 1998.
Right behind the bumper,A wooden bridge about 6' wide was built across the tracks. People then walked about 75' south on the n/b plat to a cutaway in the wall where a all wood stairway was built to the street along the concrete wall. This was i use for around 3 months? It was in use after the old Fulton st. stairways/structures were removed until the line closed.
Where were the fare controls?
there were three booths:
Rockaway/Lefferts Bound IND- at IND platform level
Manhattan Bound IND- at IND platform level
Franklin Shuttle entrance- at Shuttle platform level
Current layout, two booths:
Rockaway Bound Booth- moved to street level
Manhattan Bound Booth- Still there
Shuttle booth- closed (removed)--combined with street level IND booth.
Botanic Gardens:
No change: Shuttle booth (street level- one step up from street but NOT ADA accessible due to stairs to platforms) and the IRT Franklin Ave Booth (at the other end of the IRT station.)
I've been on both the old shuttle and the new shuttle. I only asked where the fare control was when the exit was via that wooden stairway before the shuttle closed and after the el was demolished.
If you want to see a lot of Franklin Shuttle pictures since the shuttle reopened, check out Joe Korman's site at
Sorry about screwing up the link.
If you want to see a lot of Franklin Shuttle pictures since the shuttle reopened, check out Joe Korman's site at http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/nyctbmt/franklinshuttle/index.html
Since now that the LIRR is running one dual mode out of Spenok in the morning & out of Penn Sta to Spenok in the evening rush hours, when will the LIRR start running the remaining dual modes into Penn Sta on the non electrified lines & what will the schedules be like.
Finally, when will the LIRR next schedule change will be & will that be with dual modes going to Penn Sta.
Sincerely,
MIchael
Here's something REALLY strange that I saw around noon on Friday: as I was waiting for the Franklin Shuttle, I saw a work train pull (or back in) halfway into the Prospect Park station (northbound platform) as it was awaiting a move over to a southbound track.
The odd thing about it was that the last two cars of the train were R-40 SLANTS! The pair were attached to a typical yellow IRT workcar with 50-ton diesel at the other end. I was so mesmerized by this scene that I neglected to take down the numbers on the cars (sorry, Wayne).
Is anyone else aware of R-40 Slants being used on worktrain detail?
Doug aka BMTman
I think it was on the 22 or the 23 of November I saw 2 R40s 1 worktrain and another 2 R40s at the other end. I was too far and I couldn't see. It was traveling on the southbound express track between Sheepshead Bay and Brighton Beach.
/--||--\ |-------| /--||--\
R40 R40 worktrain R40 R40
Thanks for the great computer generated slant R-40 worktrain logo!
/--||--\ |-------| /--||--\
I assume that was the same train (or part of it) that I saw.
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah, I saw this train on Tuesday, I think I was traveling on Ave R. I was coming home from the doctor and saw that was suprised. Why do you think the slants were on there?
laterz
blackdevl
Huh? I wonder what Coney Island's up to??!! Was there anything peculiar about the slants in question, maybe a wreck or a car with non-operational motors? I wonder....
-Stef
I'm trying to piece this situation together Doug, I honestly don't know what's happening here. It must be some kind of test. Perhaps I'd better get down to the Brighton Line and observe strange and unusal car movements. I wonder, was the diesel pulling the slant or the slant pulling the diesel?
-Stef
Stef, as I pointed out, it was the diesel pushing the slants into the station north, then moving south, as though the worktrain was awaiting a switch to do a crossover just outside Prospect Park station.
The slant that I saw had a "Not in Service" signage in the line marker window. Both cars looked like revenue cars in every other respect (all seating was there and no other markerings on the cars).
The only thing that comes to mind is that the cars were being used to haul a large group of NYCT personnel to/from a track worksite and the Slants were used as a sort of Caboose (or "slumber car").
It certainly is perplexing no matter how you look at it.
Doug
Right. It's still a perplexing situation and should continually be watched. They did it with Slant 40s, what's to say that a Modified 40 or 42 won't be put through a similar situation? Stay tuned...
Cheers,
Stef
I think this was a dream. I was at Prospect Park yesterday, trying to find the shuttle bus, when a work train pulled into the station. It was picking up refuse. When it finished its work, it pulled out back to Coney Island. It was not diesel powered, but actually powered by one of those hand propelled cars where there is a big see-saw type of lever that two men push down and up on. I think I recognized one of the motive forces to be one of the more dissident members of the union who posts here frequently. Standing over him and the other worker with a whip and several fierce German shephards was an MTA vice president in charge of cruel and unusual punishments. I wasn't surprised to find that the last two cars of the work train were R142's with a big S painted on each end. I asked a train buff who I recognized what this meant, and he said they were testing the 142's to see if they were suitable for work train service. So far they had failed the test. He told me that the MTA was trying to sell the 142's to the operators of the Coney Island Cyclone. I woke up laughing, which was very pleasant as I have been walking around lately absolutely terrified of a transit strike.
After posting my dream sequence, I went down to Sheepshead Bay Road to pick up the Times. I saw 2 yellow IRT workcars outside the staton on the northbound Express track and I went to see what was on the other end, hoping to see the slant 40's that Doug dreamed up. I saw something silver sitting in the station, but couldn't make it out. Against my better cheaper nature, I tied up my bike and bought a token and went upstairs. The other end of the train was EP007, a stainless steel sided car which I think I've seen around. In the middle were 3 flatcars with dumpsters loaded with garbage. It was strange running into the refuse train, right after posting about it. Likewise it was strange to read Charlie from Bedford Park reporting on a German Shephard found looking out the railfan window on the #7.
Stay tuned for further strange events in my psychic life. You people should be afraid, very afraid.
You've got me frighten, Paul. I just went and triple-locked the front door and reconnected the jumper cables to electrify the perimeter fencing.
I think I can rest easy tonight ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
11/28/99
heypaul,
You know heypaul, every time I see one of your left of center posts I stop,stand up and look out the window and check the sky for a full moon!
That is not a heypaul "work train" fantasy. Your work train fantasy would call for express service on the Brighton Line stopped to allow for a work train of flat cars parked at MY station , Newkirk Ave , and a crane lifting up from the flat cars brand new MACK C-49's and placing them gingerly on Foster Ave. signed up for the B-8. Your reason would be to start in mid route to surprise everybody at the bus depot !!
Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to lay down and have my own Bill Newkirk dream of camping out overnight at New York Cross Harbor and greet a car float of brand new B-TYPES which will go in service to replace the R-68's that were to recently sold to South Pole Rapid Transit !!
Bill Newkirk
Hey, Bill.
I like your fantasy alot! Keep the dream alive!
Doug aka BMTman
heypaul, are you sure the trains weren't marked "SS" for the MTA "gestapo tactics" that you witnessed in your dream??? Just a random passing thought.
Doug aka BMTman
Interesting insight Doug, but I checked with my psychoanalyst who thought the single S most likely stood for Scrap, which has been my long standing feelings about where the R 142 are headed. Even the Cyclone management refused to purchase the 142's, there is the possibility of bringing back the Thunderbold rollercoaster, whose trackage still stands further west on the boardwalk. That might be a better deal since it would take less trackwork to connect Stillwell Ave to the Thunderbold.
There are probably three times that passenger cars can be towed. One is in emergencies where a stalled train can be pushed from behind by a work train that HAPPENS to be there. Because there is not enough horsepower from a work train, it is usually avoided unless the work train itself is the stalled train. In that case we throw on the approprate adapter, either H2C to MCB or MCB to OB and use the road train for horses.
The second scenario is using a diesel to push out of service main shop cars, collision and scrap cars, all which cannot MU with a train (portions advanced and brake angles open. This way the scrap cars would still be able to be moved from yard to yard without sectionalizing a train that cannot be properly contolled, although illegal to the rule book.
The last scenario is the SET train (Storm Emergency Train) which is used in winter emergencies where third rail contact is very poor. In A division, two diesels are placed on the Dyre Av line sandwiching 5 R-62a cars. I have worked this particular train once. If the storm is sleet only, all 5 cars are usually VERY COLD. B division runs one SET on the Rockaway Line using R68 cars transfered. The reason for that is the H2C diesel adapter has a feature to run brake pipe from the diesel through OK SMEE cars using the straight air pipe to apply passenger car's brakes. There is no such provision to my knowledge on R44 because the adapter doesn't provide it. In operation, the independant, or ENGINE BRAKE (C) is used to apply the train's brakes. Trainline ME26L is not used in this operation.
I was shocked to see an R46 car on the R line (#5526) with almost half of it's side covered in offensive graffiti at Times Sq. arond 6:10 AM yesterday morning. And I'm talking about the multi-colored tags that covered subway cars from roof to wheels (windows included) that cars in the 1970's had. I thought there was a general order than any car that's a victim of a graffiti attack is immediatey taken out of service and sent to be cleaned?
Perhapps it was on it's way to be cleaned. Someone should know.
It was in service. Perhaps it was sent to be cleaned when it got to Jamaica, or do they only do that at Stillwell Ave?
Probably not on a Holiday weekend.
-Hank
that train should have been removed from service immediately but hey we need to have SERVICE right? do you think we'd have people PO'd since a train was removed only FOR GRAFITTI heaven forbid. my opinion not that of the TA is the train should have been kept out of service till it was cleaned regardless of the need for service
It was 6:15 AM, on Friday, the day after Thanksgiving. It also had an N train right behind it. It should have been removed from service, no matter what the time of day. There was no need to keep it in service.
And even if it was 8:30 AM on a regualar weekday, it still should have been removed. Absolutley no appearence of an easing of the zero tolerance of grafitti can be allowed to happen, as it would invite the grafitti artists back to tagging trains. A delay in service is no big deal.
Personally, I think that a delay in service should be taken more seriously than that of grafitti. Even though it is quite harmful to the zero-tolerance objectives of the MTA, one should not sacrifice service for it. The train should have been removed if a replacement could be found.
Yes, I have a problem with removing a train from service do to graffiti. True, t is an eyesore, nobody here would disagree. BUT, it is not a mechanical problem or anything that otherwise would put the lives of the riding -- and paying public -- in jeopardy. Therefore, normal reason would dictate that the cars shuold remain in service until they reach a terminal station where they can be removed and (hopefully) easily replaced by clean cars.
Having delays in service do to a car with graffiti is just ludicrous.
Doug aka BMTman
I happen to be a conductor on the "R" line and sometimes the "N" line. Recently, we have been experiencing a rash of vandalism and increased graffiti on both lines. I also notice during my tours that additional graffiti is occuring in the tunnels. Many trains are laid up overnight in the tunnels and under City Hall station on the unused express tracks- this may explain how the graffiti got on the "R" train. On the "N" line, windows are being kicked out and broken every day, and debris is thrown on the tracks causing BIE, expecially around Fort Hamilton Parkway and 9th avenue. Transit Police are not watching enough, and neither is the TA. Trains should NOT be laid up in the tunnels or between stations- they all should go to the yards where they are protected by fencing.
Yes, I agree. Since station security can't be as tight as a yard, the TA's best bet for "zero tolerance" would be to eliminate the storage of trains in tunnels between stations. It is only a graffiti incident waiting to happen.
Doug aka BMTman
Do you remember when the R62a first came on #1 line & sitting at 240st Yard overnight in 1988? The next day some workers found R62a cars with graffiti & the windows was knock down & same day they clean the R62a cars.
Millennium Man 2000
I don't recall that incident, but the R62 had already been in service on the #1 route for nearly 2 years before 1988.
I have seen cars get tagged since the grafitti problem was officialy "eliminated" in the summer of 88. But never have i seen them in actual revenue service.
You sure it wasn't a train wrapped with advertising, like they're doing more and more often here in Chicago? :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Good god, I hope not! I'm already assaulted by advertising on the inside of subway cars, and I don't want to deal with them when I get off.
Advertising is a fantastic revenue stream. I'd honestly like to see more of it, as it reduces the possibilities for fare increases, and decreases the need for subsidies.
-Hank
[Advertising is a fantastic revenue stream. I'd honestly like to see more of it, as it reduces the possibilities for fare increases, and decreases the need for subsidies.]
As long as it's not sleazy advertising. There's way too much downscale social-service type advertising in the subway (domestic violence, Lydia has Chlamydia, Julio and Marisol, etc.) Not to mention Dr. Zizmor and the "have you been injured" lawyer ads.
Lydia has Chlamydia??????????
3TM
48St. COnnection to the Q104. The next station will be 54St. Transfer to the R and V trains lower level. Connection to the Q18. Stand Clear............
[Lydia has Chlamydia??????????]
I'm sorry to say that she does. Fortunately, her friend (whose name I can't remember) convinced her to get tested when it was still easily treatable. By the way, there's also a Spanish version.
You would want to see subway car RAP adds like they have on the Bus??
Is this one car or all 10 cars? Imagine a train of redbirds in a wrap add...UGH!
It's already happeing here in Chicago... United Airlines has wrapped an entire 8-car Blue Line train, and Old Navy has a large number of tagged cars on the Red and Brown lines. Maxwell House and the Illinois Lottery are other repeat offenders.
And don't even get me started on the CTA busses... It's getting to the point where a bus that hasn't been wrapped is a rare find.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
That early in the morning, it probably wasn't noticed yet. The train was probably laid up on the Fourth Ave. Exp. tracks between 45 & 59 St's. They have lots of vandalism problems there. I'm sure it was sent to Jamaica Yard for cleaning when noticed .
Why don't R46 laid up at Jamaica Yard or lower level City Hall? It there no room for R46 or other cars?
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
I see some of graffitis on Redbirds #2, 5, & 6 lines.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
I've seen SOME interior graffitti, here and there, mostly on Redbirds. It has been quite some time, no, make that quite a few YEARS since I've actually seen a "paint pot" (as I used to call them). I remember vividly R44 #124, only a few months old - I got on at 179th Street and promptly sat down in the window seat on the far side of the car. I didn't notice at first, but we stopped and I looked out the window and for a moment I thought we stopped in the tunnel but we were actually at Union Turnpike! I couldn't see out! When I finally got off at Lexington Avenue THERE IT WAS - Killer I in seven-foot-high letters, complete with a mural and some cartoons, covering the ENTIRE 75-foot length of #124's side.
I am of the firm belief that a train sporting exterior graffitti in any large quantity, especially if it invades the window-glass, should be PULLED from service and sent to the nearest maintenance facility to be cleaned.
As for the graffitti problem itself - it hasn't really gone away - look at many inner-city building walls, or highway overpasses and there it still is. It's even out here on Long Island. It has merely been driven from the underground (among other locations). They even used to paint on buses and even garbage trucks (i.e. 25J-041 with "JAWS" and sharks painted all over it and the compactor blade painted black with shark's teeth along the edge - circa 1980). I saw a freight train stopped on an overpass over I-81 in West Virginia recently and a number of box cars were hideously defaced and painted over.
Wayne
Since the R is a long line, and is a shuttle during the midnite hours, put ins are needed at both ends of the line. The layups I mentioned are put ins from 95 St. for the AM rush. It would be terribly inefficient to have to deadhead all those trains from Jamaica Yard. All AM put ins at City Hall are for N service out of Astoria because it would be terribly inefficient to deadhead all those trains from Coney Island & Stillwell Yards.
That's where I think this train was "tagged", as it sat on the express tracks north of 59th St. It was probably attacked on Thursday, being a holiday with only skeleton service required.
I was equally shocked to see a northbound N or R train in the City Hall station with a big graffiti tag on it too.
Perhaps the motormen or conductors are not inspecting the trains properly in the morning before they are dispatched.
Could it also be that some NYCT personnel are doing the graffiti??
(It could be a way for them to "vent" since they don't have many other avenues to express their displeasure with mananagement.)
Doug aka BMTman
Funny how you guys are so quick to point the finger at TA employees for not doing their job, spraying graffitti, etc. I don't suppose electing "100% tolerance" liberal Democrats for the past 35 years had anything to do with creating or the festering of this problem. It's high time a law was passed making graffitti or any other defacing of public property a felony and start letting these 'artists' (and I use the term very loosely, this is family reading so I can't say what I honestly think of them), do some real jail time. Then lets see how often it occurs.
You can have Liberal Democrats or Conservative Republicans in office and people will still do graffiti and other acts of anti-social behavior. This is a fact.
The reason why we don't see the amounts of graffiti as we saw in the 70's is easily explained in two examples (1) the subway fleets started to go over to all stainless steel rolling stock making the "canvas" unsuitable for most "works"; (2) the TA finally got SMART and began tightening up security at their rail yards, including the installment of razor wire (not the lame barbed wire), and double-fencing in some cases.
Politics had little to do with the end of the nasty graffiti days.
Doug aka BMTman
The reason why we don't see the amounts of graffiti as we saw in the 70's is easily explained in two examples (1) the subway fleets started to go over to all stainless steel rolling stock making the "canvas" unsuitable for most "works"; (2) the TA finally got SMART and began tightening up security at their rail yards, including the installment of razor wire (not the lame barbed wire), and double-fencing in some cases.
Security and razor wire may be a valid reason, but all stainless steel rolling stock? No. The R-32's, 38's, 40's, 40M's, 42's, 44's and 46's all had plenty of graffiti on them in the 1970's. I think we don't have the overwhelming graffiti problem that we once had because it is not tolerated and accepted like it was in the '70s. I think that back in the '70s, both the TA and the riding public were pretty much resigned to the fact that graffiti on the subway was now a way of life, and that it wasn't going away. Extra security in the yards, the use of graffiti-resistant paint, along with immediate removal, and not letting it accumulate has a lot to do with the absence of graffiti. Isn't it something that no other city had this problem? I don't think that any other city has had the problem of seat-slashing that we had, that caused the TA to quit ordering cars with soft seats, and to replace the soft seats that we had with fiberglass in the late '60s. In a way, maybe its best that the A/B's, D-Types and Lo-V's didn't survive longer than they did. Could you imagine those cars painted silver and blue outside, with pastel grey/green interiors and fiberglass seats! Its hard enough to imagine that the R-7/9's were done up like that!
Most paints are easier to remove from stainless steel rather than standard steel equipment.
Another thing to remember: just like the frisbe and Hula-Hoop, the graffiti craze died out because it was primarily a fad.
Doug aka BMTman
You're kidding, right? Grafitti is as big a scourge now as it was in the 70's. The only reason subway cars haven't been the primary target of these "artists" is because of the zero tolerance for graffiti that as instituted back in 1983 for all new/overhauled cars. Why waste time on your masterpiece when TA employees will erase it as soon as it's discovered?
Private property is now the #1 target for graffiti vandals.
Even in the 70's there was graffiti on buildings (and some private vehicles). What happenned with the vast majority of the large scale and "more talented" graffiti artists is that they GREW UP! (Most of those 70s graffiti "artists" are now in their 40s. I doubt these guys are going around and still doing "their thing".)
As a matter of fact, one or more of some of the better graffiti artists went legit and are now highly sort-after advertisers/muralists. I think I read somewhere that one guy opened a gallery in LA some years ago and commands six figures for some of his work.
The vast majority of the new graffiti is being done by the usual suspects -- inner city youth (with their suburban counterparts graffitiing their own neighborhoods). These kids are trying to imulate the 70s "crews", but lack some actual "artistic touch" and are just wannabes.
Every generation has had it's youth rebellion movement and graffiti is an urban version of the leather-jacketed "greasers" of the 50s. The 60's had it's strung-out-on-drugs "flower children".
Doug aka BMTman
I'm still sore about the fiberglass seats, literally!
The Orion VI Low floor hybrids have padded seats, is that a sign of things to come?
I remember most of the pre-war cars, especially the IND cars had combinations of yellow cane seats and red cushion seats. I think the red seats were newer, or replacements of the cane. If I remember correctly the red cushion seats were very comfortable and the cane seats were uncomfortable. They were as bad as the fiberglass seats. I remember I always went for the red seats!
I noticed those red seats myself, especially among the R-7 cars. I wonder if they pulled them from scrapped BMT Standards or R16s that had escaped vandalism when their seats were converted from red vinyl to fiberglas. These red seats were especially common in the #1300 and #1400 series cars, even those in Eastern Division. #1500 and UP had fiberglas seats. UGH! Those were the WORST!
Wayne
This thread on padded seats in R-1/9s brings up an interesting point. AMC recently aired "The Wrong Man", and I noticed Henry Fonda sitting in what clearly appeared to be a padded seat on an IND train. It still seems odd to see the conductor perched between the first (R-4 #495) and second cars of the train where Fonda gets off.
"AMC recently..."
I thought they merged with Chrysler 10 years ago.
I remember most of the pre-war cars, especially the IND cars had combinations of yellow cane seats and red cushion seats. I think the red seats were newer, or replacements of the cane. If I remember correctly the red cushion seats were very comfortable and the cane seats were uncomfortable. They were as bad as the fiberglass seats. I remember I always went for the red seats!
First came rattan, or cane seats, then came plastic mesh, then came red. I believe the red seats came when the R-16's came out. But I disagree with you that the yellow plastic mesh (which you refer to as cane - it was really imitation cane) were as uncomfortable as fiberglass. Nothing (with the exception of an R-40) is more uncomfortable than the retrofitted fiberglass seats that replaced padded seats.
i rail fanned so much i didnt have time to ""test the seats ""
but ny r1-r-9 and RAILFAN WINDOWS are my favorite !!
I thought the low-back R-40 & R-42 seats were awful. At least the R-32/R-38 series had higher backs.
--Mark
Those R40 seats are pure hell. The R42 seats, OTOH, are quite comfortable, but not as comfortable as those on the R32/38. Whenever I get on a J or M train that's mixed R40/42, I always ride in the R42 car.
Those R40 seats are pure hell. The R42 seats, OTOH, are quite comfortable, but not as comfortable as those on the R32/38. Whenever I get on a J or M train that's mixed R40/42, I always ride in the R42 car.
When they came up with the design for the R-42, I think they learned their lesson regarding the seats. The 42 seats are more contoured. The 40 seats are horrible.
The R-40 went for exterior design over interior. The width of the windows top to bottom with the relocation of the route signs forced them to cut the height of the seat backs. Put that together with the elimination of the curved seat bottom and you've got one uncomfortable resting place.
As much as the Slant R40s are dear to me, their seats are abominable; I find myself sliding off them every time. When I can (which isn't often) I sit by the door and lean on the little rail. Most of the time when I'm on a Slant R40, I can be found up at the front car, gazing off into the gloom (or down the Brighton or Canarsie ROW) from their ultra-large railfan window.
Wayne
WELL KEEP LOOKING !! BECAUSE SOON ALL 1960S SUBWAY CARS WITH
railfan windows will be gone forever except for the transit museum nad museum trains etc .!!!!! SO ENJOY THE SLANT 40 AND
OLDER WHILE THEY LAST!! thats why i vidieotaped it last time i was here!! roosevelt island nad the WAYNE SLANT 40 cars wow !!!
WELL KEEP LOOKING !! BECAUSE SOON ALL 1960S SUBWAY CARS WITH
railfan windows will be gone forever except for the transit museum nad museum trains etc .!!!!!
Have you ever tried getting the railfan window on a fan trip or Nostalgia Special? LOL
That's for sure. Last time I went on one and was fortunate enough to get the window for a moment I was pushed out of the way by someone with a huge video camera (not our intrepid videographer and my good friend Mark Feinman, before anyone makes a wrong assumption). Kind of soured me on the trips. I've had the same experience (different person) on a couple of Transit Museum tours as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's for sure. Last time I went on one and was fortunate enough to get the window for a moment I was pushed out of the way by someone with a huge video camera (not our intrepid videographer and my good friend Mark Feinman, before anyone makes a wrong assumption). Kind of soured me on the trips. I've had the same experience (different person) on a couple of Transit Museum tours as well.
That's terrible. Don't people have any manners anymore. If you had the window, it was yours. The least the idiot could have done was ask you nicely if he could have the window for video purposes. If it was me, I'd give it to someone who asked nicely, unless I was taking pictures out the window myself. There's also such a thing as sharing. What a creep! I myself have been on many fan trips. I never was able to get near the front window.
i was there in new york last october 31 november 5 1999
i vidieotaped # 7 5 2 Q E A and some N and i visited the transit museum and vidieotaped all of the classics
there !!! i did not push anyone out of the way!!
but i did accendentally step on someone foot and said PLEASE EXCUSE ME MAM ANS SIR !!
Am I missing something? Even though I really love the railfan window, why would anyone want it on a fan trip on old equipment? I would want to savor the car itself the sights and the sounds. I mean the outside trackbed is the same whether you're on a Low V, Triplex, or a brand new train!!!
Fan trips aren't necessarily old equipment (although in this particular case it was). What I was most interested in, in this particular instance, was the "not in regular service" trackage we were traversing - Hammell's (sp?) wye in the Rockaways. I've also had the opportunity to travel over non-revenue trackage on a couple of occasions where it would have been nice to be at the window - to the TA folks this isn't anything particularly unusual but I'll probably never have another chance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You'll ALWAYS get a Slant R40 out on the 63rd Street line if the "Q" is running there. Less likely, but possible, on the weekend, when the "B" runs - sometimes they do send one or two trains of Slants out on the "B" on weekends. A nice photo op is found at 21st Street from the overpass, with a train of Slant R40s sitting in the station. They look particularly nice in that station, for some reason.
Wayne
WELL KEEP LOOKING !! BECAUSE SOON ALL 1960S SUBWAY CARS WITH
railfan windows will be gone forever except for the transit museum nad museum trains etc .!!!!! SO ENJOY THE SLANT 40 AND
OLDER WHILE THEY LAST!! thats why i vidieotaped it last time i was here!! roosevelt island nad the WAYNE SLANT 40 cars wow !!!
WELL KEEP LOOKING !! BECAUSE SOON ALL 1960S SUBWAY CARS WITH
railfan windows will be gone forever except for the transit museum nad museum trains etc .!!!!!
Have you ever tried getting the railfan window on a fan trip or Nostalgia Special? LOL
That's for sure. Last time I went on one and was fortunate enough to get the window for a moment I was pushed out of the way by someone with a huge video camera (not our intrepid videographer and my good friend Mark Feinman, before anyone makes a wrong assumption). Kind of soured me on the trips. I've had the same experience (different person) on a couple of Transit Museum tours as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's for sure. Last time I went on one and was fortunate enough to get the window for a moment I was pushed out of the way by someone with a huge video camera (not our intrepid videographer and my good friend Mark Feinman, before anyone makes a wrong assumption). Kind of soured me on the trips. I've had the same experience (different person) on a couple of Transit Museum tours as well.
That's terrible. Don't people have any manners anymore. If you had the window, it was yours. The least the idiot could have done was ask you nicely if he could have the window for video purposes. If it was me, I'd give it to someone who asked nicely, unless I was taking pictures out the window myself. There's also such a thing as sharing. What a creep! I myself have been on many fan trips. I never was able to get near the front window.
i was there in new york last october 31 november 5 1999
i vidieotaped # 7 5 2 Q E A and some N and i visited the transit museum and vidieotaped all of the classics
there !!! i did not push anyone out of the way!!
but i did accendentally step on someone foot and said PLEASE EXCUSE ME MAM ANS SIR !!
Am I missing something? Even though I really love the railfan window, why would anyone want it on a fan trip on old equipment? I would want to savor the car itself the sights and the sounds. I mean the outside trackbed is the same whether you're on a Low V, Triplex, or a brand new train!!!
Fan trips aren't necessarily old equipment (although in this particular case it was). What I was most interested in, in this particular instance, was the "not in regular service" trackage we were traversing - Hammell's (sp?) wye in the Rockaways. I've also had the opportunity to travel over non-revenue trackage on a couple of occasions where it would have been nice to be at the window - to the TA folks this isn't anything particularly unusual but I'll probably never have another chance.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You'll ALWAYS get a Slant R40 out on the 63rd Street line if the "Q" is running there. Less likely, but possible, on the weekend, when the "B" runs - sometimes they do send one or two trains of Slants out on the "B" on weekends. A nice photo op is found at 21st Street from the overpass, with a train of Slant R40s sitting in the station. They look particularly nice in that station, for some reason.
Wayne
Yeah, but those changes wouldn't change the great sounds of those cars.
Stainless steel subway cars were never the ideal targets of the grafitti artist. The shiny metal killed the overall dramatic effect. The carbon-steel IRT cars, along with R10/R16/R27-30 were the ideal targets.
Not too many R-7s and R-9s got the silver and blue treatment. I never rode on one done up that way, but caught a glimpse of one or two once from a distance.
You're right on your observation: it would have looked strange indeed to see any of the other old timers in a silver and blue paint job. Even so, I'm sticking by my guns that the Triplexes could easily have lasted at least another ten years.
I supposed someone could take a program like Photo-Paint and `create' a blue-and-sliver BMT Standard, though it would seem sacreligious. The only remodling paint job I ever cared for (outside of making the Redbirds red again in the 1980s) was the teal-and-white World's Fair paint scheme the TA applied to the R-10s in 1964.
Oh, those Blue-Silver Eastern Division R7s and R9s! Ptui! They may have looked smart when freshly painted, but grime stuck to that paint job like glue and then the graffitti and YUCK! Simply awful! And the interior - the most deliciously hideous shade of Pistachio Green you ever did see. I was on one where they went so far as to paint the fan blades white! Sacre Blanc! PHOOEY!
Wayne
Oh, those Blue-Silver Eastern Division R7s and R9s! Ptui! They may have looked smart when freshly painted, but grime stuck to that paint job like glue and then the graffitti and YUCK! Simply awful! And the interior - the most deliciously hideous shade of Pistachio Green you ever did see. I was on one where they went so far as to paint the fan blades white! Sacre Blanc! PHOOEY!
Wayne
That pastel green and grey inside with the silver and blue outside was the most repugnant paint scheme that the TA ever came up with, whether R-7/9, 10, 12/14, 15, 16, 17, 21/22, 26/28, 29/33 or. 27/30. I could have accepted light green and grey if the grey was a little darker and the green was a little darker, and mint instead of pistachio, kind of like the mint green on #484 in the museum. I hated silver and blue. What worked for the R-32, the R-40M, R-42, R-44 and R-46 looked horrible on the carbon steel cars. If they wanted to repaint everything, they should have gone with their 1960's plan and use the 1964 World's Fair colors like they did on the R-10's - copying the color scheme of the R-36. The red on the Redbirds is a big improvement over silver and blue, but not as nice as the light blue and grey World's Fair colors.
Doug, I don't think it was the stainless steel, as those cars got hit with as much graffiti as the painted cars. It was a combination of TA security and removal of graffiti ASAP. It's surprising the TA hasn't learned its lesson from the graffiti days to do something about scratchiti windows. In some respects, today's subway looks much better than 15 years back because of the absence of most graffiti. But the ugly windows certainly look bad as well as give the impression the TA still isn't in control. I hate to think of the windows of the new R-142's getting ruined because the TA hasn't figured out a solution to scratchiti. There's got to be an answer, just like there was for graffiti.
Yes there is an answer. It's called "LOCK THEM UP". Once a few examples are set, you'll be surprised at the effects. It definitely would not solve the problem, but it sure as hell would put a substantial dent in it. Yes, the TA is to be commended for its efforts for at least trying to keep the trains graffitti free. But what about the rest of the city? Everywhere you look, some idiot has his 'tag' scribbled. I'm sorry, folks, but I think it looks like hell. Some of the murals are well-done works of art - but thse scribbles and other 'expressions' have got to go. LOCK THEM UP!
I agree! Some graffiti is art, but the worst of it is the "tagging" which is usually just some idiot scribbling (usually incoherantly) some name or handle that only he and his friends would understand (sometimes rival gangs can get really pissed off when someone from another turf "tags" in their neighborhood. I believe the Los Angeles Police Dept. has an entire unit that deals just with keeping track of gang "tagging").
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, it is a felony to paint on the trains, and I've heard of the "three strikes" rule being applied to people to lock them up.
Jon
Why don't they develop scratch-resistant windows? Is this possible?
Why don't they develop scratch-resistant windows? Is this possible?
It would be too expensive to make windows out of diamond.
They have experimented with using thin sheets of plastic that can be removed after a window has been scratched on the #6 train, but it would be cost-prohibative to do this on a system-wide basis.
However, something should be done. Some of the scratched windows have dates on them going back almost a decade (saw a Saddam sucks! one on an R68 a few months ago). Is it not impossible to at least replace these windows every few years?
The scratches are back on the Franklin Ave shuttle, storm door and one or two windows on one car I saw. Sorry didn't get the number.
Well, 7 weeks was longer than anyone anticipated those wndows lasting unscathed.
They have experimented with using thin sheets of plastic that can be removed after a window has been scratched on the #6 train, but it would be cost-prohibative to do this on a system-wide basis.
However, something should be done. Some of the scratched windows have dates on them going back almost a decade (saw a Saddam sucks! one on an R68 a few months ago). Is it not impossible to at least replace these windows every few years?
They need to do something. They should make the glass easily removable and replacable. Make windows modular, so they can be replaced in minutes. As for cost, that's another story. Ahhhh. (sigh). Will the subway ever be like it was prior to 1970? I remember when you saw a little bit of scratching of letters in paint, or a little bit of pen. Who ever invented spray paint should have been shot. Now, we have to contend with the etchers.
I might be wrong and correct me if I am but I seem to remember that during the graffiti glory days of the late 60's/early 70's it was basically only an IRT problem. I used to work at Yankee Stadium in those days and while waiting to get in (they had a shape up) I used to see car after car on the el on River Av sprayed from top to bottom but I used to take the IND there from Jamaica ("E" or "F" to 7Av then "D") and I never remember ANY grafitti on any of the cars. I do not recall EVER seeing ANY graffiti on ANY R1-9, BMT Standard or "Q" car on Myrtle in the late 60's when graffiti was already a problem on the IRT. Alot of R1-9's still had the "City Of New York" still painted on the cars. It sort of made me think in those days that the kids doing it were exclusively doing it on the Bronx els. Any thoughts?
Funny you should mention that. My feelings on this is that perhaps IRT yards were easier to access? Or that the kids who did the graffiti lived along those particular IRT routes?
Obviously, the hideousness of graffiti eventually engulfed the entire system by the late 70's and that peroid was by far the low-point of equipment conditions in New York City.
Doug aka BMTman
IIRC,it started in '69 or '70 on the IRT with magic marker "tags".
(Anyone remember "Taki 183" all over the place?) From there,it spread system-wide. Spray paint came along in '72 or so. I also remember reading that by the late '70's,most of the fleet had been defaced.
An excellent book on the subject is "Getting Up:Subway Graffiti in New
York" by Craig Castleman. I think it's available from Amazon.com
IIRC,it started in '69 or '70 on the IRT with magic marker "tags".
(Anyone remember "Taki 183" all over the place?) From there,it spread system-wide. Spray paint came along in '72 or so. I also remember reading that by the late '70's,most of the fleet had been defaced.
An excellent book on the subject is "Getting Up:Subway Graffiti in New
York" by Craig Castleman. I think it's available from Amazon.com
Yeah, I remember Taki 183. I also remember Tan 144. Isn't it absurd that we remember such rediculous and unimportant things. What I remember during the graffiti days of the '70s was the entire side of an R-36 on the Flushing line covered with a mural of all the characters in the Sunday News comics. It didn't even look like the work of vandals. It looked professional. I remember Broom Hilda, Dick Tracy, etc. I think Super Duper was on there too.
I have a village voice centerfold from the late 70s with pictures of IRT cars defaced in a way you describe. Beneath the pictures, the bottom of the page said, "these cars have since been defaced by the MTA".
--Mark
The graffitti scourge seemed to have spared, for the most part, the Jamaica R-6 and R-7 cars, except for a few which were tagged, mostly by one painter who went by the tag "Pentagram". The Slant R40s and the R44s took a beating back in '73 and '74. An even worse beating was inflicted on the R16s.
The Eastern division R-7 and R-9s were another story - they got bathed in all kinds of chicken scratch - no murals, just ugly scrawl.
Some of the most vivid murals I ever saw in the "B" division appeared on the R10 cars. #3124!, #3158!!, #3278, #3287, #3100!, all these (and more).. The R16 as well - #6334!, #6384, #6409!!, #6434!, #6419!, #6302, #6455!, #6492 etc, paint-pots all, one worse than the next.
"A" division winner was #8840-8841 - even the roof was painted - and Flushing Line R36 #9670-9671, with an erupting volcano, and a portrait of Beelzebub himself.
Wayne
Some of the most vivid murals I ever saw in the "B" division appeared on the R10 cars. #3124!, #3158!!, #3278, #3287, #3100!, all these (and more).. The R16 as well - #6334!, #6384, #6409!!, #6434!, #6419!, #6302, #6455!, #6492 etc, paint-pots all, one worse than the next.
"A" division winner was #8840-8841 - even the roof was painted - and Flushing Line R36 #9670-9671, with an erupting volcano, and a portrait of Beelzebub himself.
How in the world do you remember car numbers of trains that were graffitied 25 years ago?
Wayne keeps very meticulous notes on car numbers, train consists, and the like.
The Qs and BMT standards were gone before graffiti became a problem. Trains in general were still relatively graffiti-free as late as 1971. The epidemic started a year later, and by the late 70s it was pretty sickening, especially on car interiors. Shoe polish seemed to be a popular material. I remember seeing one car on the IRT which appeared to have had an entire can of paint just splattered all over one side of its exterior. Everything, windows and all, was obliterated. There were other cars which were utterly desecrated just after being repainted a second time in silver and blue in 1979-80.
I never saw any graffiti on any R-1/9s, mainly because I never saw or rode on them again after July of 1971. By then, my visits to the city had dropped off drastically to once or twice a year, and during 1974 and 1975, I didn't set foot on the subway at all.
I have a feeling that it is happening all over again. i've been spotting some graffitti on trains and stations and I have seen imprints of them on train interiors after being rubbe off by the cleaners. MTA is slackening. they either tighten the security at the yards and stations or higher more cleaners to get rid of the problem before those trains start rolling down the tracks.
I never saw any graffiti on any R-1/9s, mainly because I never saw or rode on them again after July of 1971. By then, my visits to the city had dropped off drastically to once or twice a year, and during 1974 and 1975, I didn't set foot on the subway at all.
The R-1/9's received their share of graffiti. They weren't spared like the Standards were. The only reason why the Standards were spared the horror of graffiti was a date with the welder's torch.
Just be glad that the vandals aren't into watching Martha Stewart and using the real glass etching chemicals. I'd assume that some of the lines are vacant enough in the early morning hours that a vandal could use the real stuff and produce a rather impressive piece of art if they felt motivated.
They could try some material like Pyrex(TM) glass, which, no doubt, would be prohibitively expensive. This stuff CAN be scratched but it takes a serious effort. You need something like a scribe or a sharpened punch to scratch it - single-edged razors and box-cutters have no effect on it. The only problem is how to make a "safety" version of this glass.
Wayne
The heading of your post is a mis-statement. While it was un-officially referred to as Zero-Tolerance, the actual policy is that any train with graffiti must be removed from service (ASAP) within 24 hours for cleaning. The unofficial policy, however, is that trains (with heavy graffiti/murals) are removed from service immediately so that the vandals never get to see their work on display.
No, that is the official policy. Bulletin 169-91 states all trains with any graffitti will be removed from service. That makes it official.
That's RTOs policy but the official TA policy is that the train must be removed from service within 24 hours. If the RTO bulletin were held as gospel, based on what constitutes graffiti, there'd be more light trains than trains in service.......
Well whomever tagged this defensless R train got to have his creation showed all up and down the Broadway line this Friday. It's the first time I've seen a subway car this heavily tagged in actual revenue service in over a decade.
Saw the last three cars of a Queens-bound F train with faded graffiti, looked like someone did not clean it up completely. Then saw another one this time on the R, with it's middle cars with graffiti.
Wasn't able to get train numbers, but what's with this slacking off?
Trains were running slow too, and there were alot of kids around that gave me the creeps.
I wonder why the subway seems to be deteriorating again.
Saturday night I was at 34 on the D (IND side). WHile covering the downtown plat I noticed two cars had heavy grafityi. I told the conductor who immediately noted in a book the two car numbers I gavce him.
Surprised no one mentioned a recent article (NY Times?) describing the fast-growing number of non-US residents (Germans, in the article) who come to NYC specifically to spray TA subway cars with full-car designs. In the worldwide network of grafitti artists, apparently, the NYC subway system is considered the ultimate place to show your work.
The two Germans who were arrested were apparently surprised; I believe they went through Central Booking and spent 24 or so hours in jail before arraignment. One colorful note was that the NYC cops (no more Transit cops, thanks, Rudy) who arrested these guys said that they can tell German spray paint from the U.S. product just by the way it sounds when shaken ....
Yep, most youth in other countries pick up on US kid's fads many years later.
Those Germans probably thought it was cool and that they would get off with a just paying a minor fine (As we can see, the U.S. doesn't have a monopoly on graffiti-vandals).
Doug aka BMTman
A few months ago, police in Stockholm arrested some Americans who had come over to Sweden specifically to deface the new subway cars that went into service last year (the series is still being delivered).
So I guess it works both ways....
-- Tim
What punishment did those American graffitiists get?
I'm curious, because many Americans believe that certain crimes are more mildly punished elsewhere than in the U.S.
Some Americans abroad found this wasn't so during the '60s and '70s in relationship to drug laws, as in, e.g., Mexico and Turkey.
Just how exactly does the TA remove the vandalism from the train without damaging the train? I realize that it's stainless steel, but at the same time, some acids would easily eat through that.
I believe the TA uses a citrus-based acid that was invented (or more likely discovered) by a guy from Queens. He sold them a ton of this stuff, made a fortune from it, and then introduced it to the general public about 10 years ago. I think it is commonly called GoJo (it gets nasty automotive grease off you hands w/o using water).
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen the informercial for this stuff. It also strips varnish off of wooden furniture, and it's totally safe. That guy must have made a fortune.
If it's GoJo, it's been around at least since I was last seriously tinkering with cars in the mid-'70s. Much nicer on the hands than Boraxo!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I want to add a FAQ about Metrocard things not mentioned in MTA literature, for this I invite you to ask questions about the MC, even if you know the answer.
Thanks
1. What's up with the little hole in the MetroCard?
2. When was MetroCard first introduced?
3. What does MetroCard allow you to do systemwide?
4. How can I obtain a MetroCard?
"3. What does MetroCard allow you to do systemwide?"
I don't really understand this question.
Basically, what can you ride with MetroCard. What are it's limitations?
Why is the TA trying to do away with the symbol of the subways for the past 50 years and replace it with a piece of plastic?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll answer this now
Because the Metrocard system is easier to maintain in addition to allowing things that were previously impossible (unlimited rides, transfers).
Metrocards are also more convenient, but that's a personal opinion and it's different for others.
And affecting only me, having a Student MC is much better than waiting in line with all the slow token people just to enter the subway through one turnstile.
I know, I was simply asking rhetorically :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This is going to be question number 1. It's the Metrocard's raison d'être.
Do I get a discount for using the MetroCard?
The little hole is for an electric eye in the bus fareboxes and the dip readers in the booths and MVMs. It identifies that the Metrocard has been inserted correctly (light will pass through the hole, obviously)
The notch is for card orientation for the blind (notch against your palm when swiping, to the upper left when dipping)
MetroCard first introduced at 69 stations, including St. George on the SIR, in 1995.
The card went citywide in early 1997.
On July 4, 1997 ('Independance Day'), Metrocard Gold went active. This included fare discounts and monthly and weekly passes.
I don't know exactly when the day pass was introduced.
-Hank
MetroCard first introduced at 69 stations, including St. George on the SIR, in 1995."
1994 January 6
"On July 4, 1997 ('Independance Day'), Metrocard Gold went active. This included fare discounts and monthly and weekly passes."
No it didn't, it only included free transfers. The discounts came online on January 1, 1998, while the monthly and weekly passes were introduced on July 4, 1998.
"I don't know exactly when the day pass was introduced."
January 1, 1999
Metrocard Vending Machines were introuduced on January 25, 1999.
I'm only going to post corrections to erroneous responses here. I'm keeping the questions for the FAQ.
If I pass through NYC a few times per year and only take subway once per visit what MetroCard is best for me?
Mike, You've got too choices:
1. Fun Pass that's good for one person who gets unlimited rides all day.
2. Value pass, min. suggested buy at $15, includes one free ride. Up to 4 can travel on same card. When you reach the "expires" date just go up to friendly Station Agent & ask them to MOVE remaining money to another card (you have a year to do this, so you don't loose any of the $15 for 2 years). Add more value as you need to.
Mr t__:^)
There are some questions regarding Metrocard usage on buses that I think need to be clarified.
On NYC buses that have "limited stop" as well as "local" service, can you transfer from a limited to a local bus, or vice versa, without using up your one allowed transfer?
On LI bus, there is supposedly an extra charge for crossing the Queens/Nassau line. But if you use Metrocard, are you exempted from this? If not, how is this charge collected?
"On LI bus, there is supposedly an extra charge for crossing the Queens/Nassau line. But if you use Metrocard, are you exempted from this? If not, how is this charge collected?"
This charge has been eliminated. The only thing that Metrocard gives you on LIBus is the ability to transfer free to the NYCT Bus and Subway, and one doesn't need to pay 25 cents for a transfer with Metrocard.
[On NYC buses that have "limited stop" as well as "local" service, can you transfer from a limited to a local bus, or vice versa, without using up your one allowed transfer?]
Some bus lines have paper that you can take to the next limited stop/express bus. Officially you can transfer from any express to another (use up the transfer) OR to/from local/subway. If you're coming from local/subway there's a $1.50 "Step Up" fare as the express is $3.00. What you can't do is a "three leged transfer", but if you're on a bus & ask the driver for a paper/mag Transfer you can keep transfering to another local bus (that's not official policy).
Mr t__:^)
Also of note is that LI Bus is picky about where it will accept a transfer from the subway. For example, if I take the subway to Penn Station, then take the LIRR to Rockville Centre and board the N15 bus, I get charged for another ride. If I take the LIRR to Rosedale and board a city bus -- free "transfer", if it's within 2 hours of when I swiped in the subway.
Chuck
That's very interesting. I once took #7 subway to A train to N33 to N15 all on one Fun Pass.
You should be able to transfer at Jamaica from LIRR or E/F/J/Z or local bus there to N4, ask for a paper/mag Transfer then catch the N15 at Rockville Centre (I don't think many would actually want to do that).
Mr t__:^)
OK here's a few questions:
- What flavors of MC avail. for LIRR & Metro-North
- Student: How many colors, how many varities
- Sr/Disabled: How many flavors ... hint don't forget Mail & Ride also Access A Ride. Another hint four colors with photo (why). What's a Auto-Gate MC.
- Unlimited: How many flavors
- Value: How many flovors
- Max dips on a card
- Max re-fills on a card
- Max value on a card
- What is the purpose of the "Expires" date
- Can you re-fill a unlimited card (any of them) ?
- Can you get a refund if you never use a unlimited card.
- If your monthly unlimited express card goes bad after two days use, what's the policy.
- Can you get a refund if you have value left ... well not a refund, but you won't lose any money with a bad/old MC if you know what to do
- Lost/stolen MC what's the REAL policy, hint TS
Mr t__:^)
the Auto Gate card is for people who use a wheelchair as a moblity aid. When the card is inserted into a reader near the agent operated service gate, the card will open the gate without action from the station agent in the booth.
Pass colors: the employee cards for NYCT employees are white white gold letters on one side with the standard strip and on the other is the picture of the employee on either a red background for males or a blue background for females. There is a also a letter U (universal- which allows NYCT subway, NYCT LOcal Bus, and MaBSTOA local bus), or E ( Employee- does not allow MaBSTOA use.) The letter is on the same side as the photo. I will call these U passes or E Passes.
MaBSTOA employees not holding a U pass have to pay to ride NYCT Bus or subway. If the MaBSTOA employee has a U pass their spouse has to pay- if the MaBSTOA employee has an E Pass, their spouse will also get a pass (E Pass). We must pay for express busm, private lines and SIR.
I will answer the colors,letters for disabled and senior in another post.
Staten Island Railway (SIR, SIRTOA) Employees have a different letter and must pay for subway and NYCT/MaBSTOA Bus. LIRR and Metro North employees (officially) must pay.
this post is based on official training instructions
[Pass colors: the employee cards for NYCT employees are white white gold letters on one side with the standard strip and on the other is the picture of the employee on either a red background for males or a blue background for females.]
There is another "white" card, it's for test/internal use. No employee photo, but it says "For Test Only", AND a light blue card that is/was for a similar purpose. The back of both say "Test purposes only". I "buy" them with $15 of value for my Farebox Repair crew. If they get caught using them to ride a bus or subway I won't bail them out. Got something to trade for a used up one, contact me off-line. P.S. you can't re-fill them at any Token Booth.
Mr t__:^)
- What flavors of MC avail. for LIRR & Metro-North
The Uniticket with $60, $15 and 30 day unlimited?
- Student: How many colors, how many varities
2 colors, orange for full fare K-6 and green for half fare K-12 and full fare 7-12. Card normally allows 3 rides, four ride versions are available.
- Sr/Disabled: How many flavors ... hint don't forget Mail & Ride also Access A Ride. Another hint four colors with photo (why). What's a Auto-Gate MC.
I don't know, except for the fact that any Reduced Fare MC allows use in the "Auto-gate" in accesible stations which opens the service gate.
- Unlimited: How many flavors
1-day, 7-day, 30-day and 30-day express bus plus.
- Value: How many flovors
One, not counting reduced fare (for which 7 and 30 day unlimiteds are available.)
- Max dips on a card
unlimited
- Max re-fills on a card
unlimited
- Max value on a card
$100, unless you count the fact that the Express Bus Unlimited costs $120.
- What is the purpose of the "Expires" date
To take cards out of circulation?
- Can you re-fill a unlimited card (any of them)?
Only on a reduced fare card.
- Can you get a refund if you never use a unlimited card.
If the card is damaged or expired (physical), it can be replaced.
- If your monthly unlimited express card goes bad after two days use, what's the policy.
Mail it as soon as possible, credit will be based on postmarked date.
- Can you get a refund if you have value left ... well not a refund, but you won't lose any money with a bad/old MC if you know what to do
Cards expired less than one year can be transferred to another card, except unlimited. Damaged cards and physically expired unlimiteds must be mailed.
- Lost/stolen MC what's the REAL policy, hint TS
I don't know anymore than it's like cash.
NO! the only card allowing the autogate is an AFAS Reduced Fare MetroCard. AFAS stands for ADA Fare Acess System. Any other card inserted into the autogate dip unit will be returned as swipe again
The Disabled "Auto Gate" card comes in the same two colors as other Disabled, i.e. female=purple, male=blue. Under the word "Disability" is a small white box that says "Autogate MetroCard". To the right is the same "R" that all Sr/Dasabled cards have.
Mr t__:^)
Corrections:
- M-n & LIRR come in value as well as unlimited
- Student: 2 colors, but 4 cards: Orange = K-6,
__Green: Free=7/12, 1/2 fare=K/12, Class Trip=2 rides
- Sr/Disabled: 4 colors: Sr.:M=green, F=yellow (Disable=see other post)
- Value, i.e. Pre-valued=6, 15(16.50), 30(33), 60(66)
P.S. four folks can ride on same card & get 4 transfers, BUT when you use the last 1.50 you DON'T get a free transfer, why ... don't know.
- Max value on a card, I think it's $163.00, note Unlim Exp card sold at $120 isn't a value card, it's a time card, i.e. the readers look at the clock vs. remaining value.
- Lost/stolen cards: If it's a Sr/Disabled or LIRR/M-N Mail & Ride, i.e. your name is on it, you can get a refund. There may be some exceptions to this, i.e. CitySearch may give you a refund, but the TA won't reimburse them for loss.
P.S. As I've said before the system has gotten far to complex !
Mr t__:^)
Corrections:
- M-n & LIRR come in value as well as unlimited
That's what I said!
- Student: 2 colors, but 4 cards: Orange = K-6,
__Green: Free=7/12, 1/2 fare=K/12, Class Trip=2 rides
I never heard of the class trip card, the last time I went on a class trip, the teacher got a form and presented it to the agent at Brooklyn Bridge. The trip was return unaccompanied (don't go back to school).
- Sr/Disabled: 4 colors: Sr.:M=green, F=yellow (Disable=see other post)
- Value, i.e. Pre-valued=6, 15(16.50), 30(33), 60(66)
P.S. four folks can ride on same card & get 4 transfers, BUT when you use the last 1.50 you DON'T get a free transfer, why ... don't know.
I never heard of a $60 card, except for the Uniticket, but I know of a $3 card.
- Max value on a card, I think it's $163.00, note Unlim Exp card sold at $120 isn't a value card, it's a time card, i.e. the readers look at the clock vs. remaining value.
I don't know what the card is physically capable of holding, but you can't put any more money on a card once it reaches $100.
- Lost/stolen cards: If it's a Sr/Disabled or LIRR/M-N Mail & Ride, i.e. your name is on it, you can get a refund. There may be some exceptions to this, i.e. CitySearch may give you a refund, but the TA won't reimburse them for loss.
P.S. As I've said before the system has gotten far to complex !
Mr t__:^)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The maxium money amount per transaction is $80.00 (unles you buy ther express bus unlimitesd card for $120.00). Due to the 10% bonus the most you can have on one card is $100.00- meaning you can add up to $91.10 to your card and then you'd have the max of $100.00.
Of course- a card is either time (unlimited) or money (per ride) NOT BOTH
"Of course- a card is either time (unlimited) or money (per ride) NOT BOTH"
Except for the RFM.
FIRST: I don't profess to be all knowing about every flavor of MC. The TA has given DOT/QSC some documentation & I have asked a lot of questions, plus this site has provided addl. input. I'm looking forward to your list so I can learn even more !!!
Eye said: [- Student: 2 colors, but 4 cards: Orange = K-6,
Green: Free=7/12, 1/2 fare=K/12, Class Trip=2 rides]
U said: [I never heard of the class trip card ...]
Eye have a couple samples of "Special Program Pass - Good For Two Trips", i.e. school trip.
==============================================================
Re flovors of Pre-valued cards: [I never heard of a $60 card, except for the Uniticket, but I know of a $3 card.]
The (uniticket) LIRR/M-N monthly value is $60, you can probally get a "TransitChek" with $60, but not sure if they sell it ($60) in another version. Re: $3.00, I believe they also sell a $12.00
===============================================================
Eye said: [- Max value on a card, I think it's $163.00, note Unlim Exp card sold at $120 isn't a value card, it's a time card, i.e. the readers look at the clock vs. remaining value.]
U said: [I don't know what the card is physically capable of holding, but you can't put any more money on
a card once it reaches $100.]
I've seen cards with more then $100 on them. It's probally POLICY not to put more then $80 on a card, but I think the card COULD deal with up to $163. In the same vain the mfg. has a dip/swipe limit & re-fill limit. I believe it was our Station Agent friend that previously said that no such limits were policy at Token Booths ... anyone dip/swipe more then 126 times on one card ?
BTW, WMATA in Washington DC is thinking about allowing folks to go to a ATM to add value and use them to pay for parking at their rail stations. I think Chicago has some other ideas (all three of us are Cubic systems, so what one comes up with all COULD do).
P.S. We had a customer who bought 17 $30 cards ($510), she said she was stocking up for the winter ... maybe she's worried about Y2K.
I have several thousand in stock if anyone else has this Y2K concern ... plug plug ;-)
Mr t
our computer in the booth reads the value on the card when we do an ADD VALUE. the computer displays the maximum and minimum that can be added to any particular card and if we enter over that amount the computer rejects the transaction via an error message.
A special thanks to our Station Agent friend for this input ! That routine sounds very logical. It also points to the fact that the MIS group at the TA could raise/lower those limits to some value relating to max bits that the card can store ... is it $163.00, maybe, but for Eugene listing it's $80.00/100.00, i.e. exist. bal zero to $20, max add is $80 with max on card $100.
Mr t__:^)
Speaking of student cards.. There was one time a friend and I found a standard-looking Gold MetroCard on a B2 (Kings Plaza) bus. Upon attempting to use it (after all, we have found cards with money on them before) the bus farebox said "Student OK". In the coming days (weeks?) we found more of these cards. This was back in Fall '97-Spring '98, soon after MC Gold / Student MC (replacing flash-pass) was introduced (We were in high school). Welp, I was just wondering if anyone knew of such a thing. Were they possibly bootlegs?
ian
I would guess that the HPEM TA shop that encodes MCs ran out of green stock and used std cards, as I too found a few of these a while ago. When I mentioned it to 130 Livingston Plaza, they said NO WAY, I went back to sleep, which is all you can do when the TA gets into it's stone wall mode.
Mr t__:^)
Actually, old blue Metrocards were used during the end of the 1996-7 school year as a replacement for full and half fare TA passes. Students were given paper transfers w
IIRC, these (blue cards) were used in only a handful of schools as a test, preceding full rollout. I remember Edward R. Murrow HS had them, while James Madison HS didn't. (I attended both)
ian
At this depot we used to have to give out school "passes". When the green MCs came out it relieved us of that task and the phone calls, i.e. Johnny lost/dog eat his school pass.
Mr t__:^)
If I have an unlimited Metrocard (the $17 or $63 variety, not the $120 express bus unlimited) and try to use it on an express bus, do I get a $1.50 credit towards my ride?
If I have taken the subway within two hours of boarding an express bus using a pay-per-ride metrocard, do I get credit for a transfer and only charged $1.50 for my ride?
[If I have an unlimited Metrocard (the $17 or $63 variety, not the $120 express bus unlimited) and try to use it on an express bus, do I get a $1.50 credit towards my ride?]
Sorry, but it won't work on a express bus.
[If I have taken the subway within two hours of boarding an express bus using a pay-per-ride metrocard, do I get credit for a transfer and only charged $1.50 for my ride?]
1. Start on Express: pay $3.00 & get one free transfer to any Express or local bus OR subway.
2. Start on subway or local bus: Pay $1.50 ... board a Express & pay a "Step-up" fare of $1.50. This also means that your transfer was used up too.
Mr t__:^)
I don't claim this to be earth shattering news, but
on the way back from Hoboken to 33rd Street, I
noticed something strange about the last car #838 .
There was an Electronic Message display mounted on the top
of one of the long windows that displayed something
like Hoboken 33rd St. I don't ride PATH an awful
lot, but I had never noticed that before. Just
thought I would report it here.
There may be one to three additional PATH cars in the 800 series that have the same message board used to show the train's destination. They have been experimenting with these for at least 6 months now.
Does anyone have a complete listingof readings
Steve (thanks)
I do not have code numbers but they are:
Newark
World Trade Center
Journal Square
Hoboken
They do not (at least not yet) have the capability for other messages and other stations.
ps- a typo : They also have 33rd Street
I know someone here in subtalk is taking a test for Train Operater in Jan 8,2000. So i have some questions so you give me a answer.
#1. One purpose of the electric brake circuit is to
A. prevent accidental emergency application
B. apply the brakes equally on all the cars at the same time
C. insure a smooth final stop under all operating conditions
D. start all compressors at the smae time
#2 The signals used at congested stations to permit a train to close in on the train ahead are ____ signals.
A. G.T.
B. A.K.
C. S.T.
D. C.I.
#3 The normal main reservoir pressure is in the range
A. 90-105
B. 110-120
C. 125-150
D. 160-180
#4 The M-3-A feed valve reduces main reservoir pressure and regulates the pressure in the supply reservoir and brake pipe to __ibs
A. 70
B. 90
C. 100
D. 110
#5 The red hand on the duplex air gage indicates the pressure in the
A. straight air pipe
B. brake pipe
C. brake cylinder
D. compressor
later i will have more questions & hope you get it right.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
PS i will give you a answer later
"Meaney"....these questions are from the "old" t/o exam..the
one given to existing transit workers. The off-the-street
exam won't have any technical questions. Anyway:
1B 2C 3C 4D 5A
Some question will be on the test because when i took conductor test july & some of the question i study was in the book. By the way i don't come from the street & im happen to be upper middle class family. So have a good night subbuffs.
Peace Out
David "Meaney" Justiniano
HOW woould someone NOT employed by the NYCT have any knowledge about the M3a feed valve? or the difference between straight air or brake pipe? or the Load sensing valve or a variable load valve...
By the way i don't come from the street & im
Huh? I'm looking back through this thread and nowhere did anyone
say you came from the street! I used the expression "off-the-street"
exam to refer to the new open comp. t/o exam but that doesn't mean
that "street people" will be taking it!
I would imagine the open t/o exam will be exactly like the
conductor exam, which is open to those without previous transit
or railway experience, and will have general questions about
arithmetic, reading comprehension and New York geography.
The sample questions you posed were from previous t/o exams, which
were NOT open competitive. They assumed that you already worked
for transit and had a chance to study the technical materials.
They were all extremely technical and if they appeared on an open
exam they would most certainly be out of place!
Of course, I just hope that somewhere in the training process,
a t/o who is hired based on the generic open exam does have to
actually answer those tech questions successfully on his or her
written final!
I am sure if there is a technical question it can be thrown out on appeal and everyone gets it right. Certifing a test is a long process and I have seen many a question thrown out.
I noticed on the number 2 line between 238th street and Bronx Park, the middle track is fenced in on both sides, is there a reason for this?
Yes there are replacing the Old Signal Systerm with the New like they did on the Pelham Line. Also may mean a Slower ride. The No.6 was a fun line intil they put timers all over the place.
Does anyone have a listing of Track Number Assignments for the Jamaica Station and Flatbush Terminal Station
In other words,,,which Tracks or Platforms with matching Destinations
Jamaica Station --also,,which Tracks are for EastBd or Westbd Trains
Thanks
Steve
At Jamaica Station, the pattern is as follows (left is north, right is south; up is east, down is west):
1(A)2(B)34(C)56(D)7(E)8
In normal operation, trains from LI (westbound) arrive on tracks 1, 2, and 3, with the usual pattern being 1 for the diesels terminating at
Jamaica, 2 for trains to NY, and 3 for trains to Brooklyn. Eastbound trains usually leave from 6, 7, and 8, with track 6 for trains taking the Locust Manor/Laurelton branch; 7 for Main Line or St. Albans branch; and 8 diesels. Of course there are many variations on this, especially during rush hour. Tracks 4 and 5 are used occasionally for trains that don't have connections, thru trains, non-revenue trains, and "when all else fails."
Can't figure it so easilly, Todd. In the AM I use 3 different trains depending on when I wake up. 2009 and 2011 are both Express trains from Ronkonkoma and use track 1 at Jamaica. 2009 is express to Penn. while 2011 stops at Woodside. Sandwiched between them is 2099 (not an error). It's an express to penn from Jamaica but uses track #5. In the evening Ronkonkoma trains can be found on any track from 4 through 8.
I knew there were rush hour "exceptions," Steve, but I didn't know they were so random. Maybe the tower operator has a random-number generator for assignments? Anyway, my observations were mainly to describe off-peak operations.
During non-rush hours there are very few diesels coming into Jamaica (unfortunately), just Oyster Bay Trains every few hours that track 1 is usually express trains to Penn while track 2 are locals. (Kew G.,Forest H) Track 3 is almost always Flatbush.
At Flatbush, there is on specific assignment of branches to tracks. If I remember correctly, the platform for Track 6 is very short so you'll usually find the West Hempstead trains there, while the Track 1 &2 platform is the only one which can fit a 10 car train, so you'll usually find the rush-hour Babylon locals there.
In the NY Post Sunday November 28, page 3, is a story about a German Shepard found on the #7 Train at the Queensboro Plaza station and ended up at the Times Square station. A very good story that will thug at your heart strings.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
[A very good story that will thug at your heart strings.]
Well, I've been called a thug on occasion, but my heart has usually nothing to do with it ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
What happened to this shephard's sheep and how do you know he's German??
What happened to this shephard's sheep and how do you know he's German??
The shepherd's sheep went to slaughter and became lamb chops. We know that he's German, because his nationality is on his dog tags.
Also when the command sit, he did nothing, but when they said Achtung.He stood up straight on all fours and did not move
11/28/99
If you read my post on the thread about PCC's in the other New York city boroughs this brings up this question:
Outside of Dallas and Illinois Terminal , were there any other operators running doublended PCC's or did I answer my question ?
Bill Newkirk
Bill... The Pacific Electric operated the first- built, double-ended cars on their Glendale-Burbank line from 1940-55. I believe they were the longest PCC cars ever built. There were 30 of them. They ran in the "Hollywood Subway'" a mile-long routing that got them out of congested downtown LA and into the Hollywood area where several lines dispersed.
Carl M.
Shaker Heights (Cleveland) leased IT 451, the double-ender currently at Warehouse Point, for about three years in the '80s, I believe - they restored it to its original paint scheme and returned it to the museum in operating condition. I'm not sure if they ever had any of their own.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, here's the list of North American properties that had double-ended cars, from Carlson and Schneider's PCC: The Car That Fought Back (not necessarily in order of construction):
SF Muni
Dallas
Pacific Electric
Illinois Terminal
Red Arrow (Philadelphia)
If there are others I can't identify them. The ex-IT car that Shaker Heights leased is the only example I can find of a double-ended car serving on a system other than the one which purchased it new.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ex-Dallas double-ended PCCs also ran on the Boston MBTA Green Line.
At the Seashore Tolley Museum, we have the following:
3328, 3331, 3338, 3340, and 3344.
They were built in 1945 by Pullman Standard, and seat 42 (except 3340 which seats 46). They have air-electric brakes. Only 3340 is accessioned into the collection, meaning the others are for spare parts and/or are available for sale.
Why does 3340 seat more than the others?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's the answer, from my Seashore colleague Gerry O'Regan:
"Most of the Dallas PCCs have two long bench seats, each of which seats 21. 3340 has one of these, but also has 12 walkovers and one small longitudinal each seating 2. This gives an actual capacity of 47. This is the way the cars were from 1959 to about 1973. 608 has the original Dallas configuration with 12 walkovers and one longitudinal on both sides for a capacity of 52."
In the early 60s that Dallas Car went from Park St to North Eastern Univ. on Huntington Ave (took it many times). The standard PCC continued on Huntington to Forest Hills/Arborway.
Mr t__:^)
Thats the same information as in "The PCC Car An American Original" by Kashin and Demoro,
Right you are. Neither book is incredibly well organized in that regard - they both have rosters but neither include that information there, you have to glean it from the text. I have both books in my collection. One thing that I didn't pick up today in my scan is that both Shaker Heights and Red Arrow considered the purchase of the Illinois Terminal cars after IT's abandonment but didn't do so - Shaker Heights bought the 1700-series cars from St. Louis and Red Arrow converted the Ardmore line to bus operation instead. (This information courtesy of another SubTalker who emailed me offline.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Didn't the cars Tandy is running now come from Wash. DC?
I don't believe so - Dallas had double-ended PCCs which I believe were simply rebodied in the '60s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The PCCs which Dallas originally had went somewhere else. Leonard's Department store (the original tennant of the building where Tandy is now) bought PCCs and converted them to platform loading. When Tandy took over, the PCCs were rebodied. Somewhere I have an article with more details. When I find it, I'll post what it says.
Five PCCs were purchased from DC Transit System (Washington DC) in June 1962. They were modified retaining the original bodies but were made into double-ended, high platform units and were equipped with air conditioning. They were numbered 1-5. Two additional DCT PCCs were purchased; one was rebuilt, numbered 7 (later changed to 6). The other was used for parts. In 1966, eight more cars were purchased from DCT; two were rebuilt, the others were used for a parts inventory. During 1975, these eight cars were completely "modernized" with a boxy exterior design, not unlike today's new trolleys in certain cities. In 1978, eight 1945 Pullman-Standard Boston PCCs were purchased; these were only used for spare parts.
San Francisco Municipal Railway had them, and a trio are still in service to this day.
SF Muni has 3 running on its F Market Street Historical Line. Technically if I remember reading somewhere way back they were not PCC since they were built by a company who did not sign the contract. They were called Magic Carpet Cars. I may be wrong though
You're on the right track about the "Magic Carpet" cars, however, those were only the first five "PCC type" cars though they were NOT considered to be "true PCC's" -- 1001 through 1005. They actually had trolley-type hand controls. They were actually built in 1939 by St. Louis Car Company. 1001, 1002, and 1004 had GE controllers and Clark trucks. 1003 and 1005 had Westinghouse controllers and Brill trucks. (Why? I don't know, nor could I find an explanation.) These five cars were called "Type C" cars and all were scrapped in the late 1950's except 1003 which resides at the Rio Vista museum.
Cars 1006 through 1015 were called "Type D" cars at Muni, and were built in 1948 also by St. Louis Car Company and were PCC from stem to stern.
The restored double enders on the F Market St. route are great to ride also. My favorite is the one painted in Illinois Terminal colors. The Illinois Terminal body was the same as the San Franciso Body so they look great.
So how many different double enders were there ?
- Dallas Car, mfg. by ???
- Red Arrow, mfg. by St. Louis Car Co.
- Pacific Electric, mfg. by ???
Mr t__:^)
Dallas and PE's were built by Pullman. Red Arrow's were not considered PCC's due to the lack of ERPCC/TRC trucks, but much PCC technology was used.
The Dallas Cars & Red Arrows due look very much alike. Shoreline at Branford has a couple that sure fooled me when I first saw them.
I've seen photos of a couple of other PCC look-a-likes (not double enders), e.g. Brilliner.
Mr t__:^)
The Red Arrow cars supposedly are identical, except for trucks, to the Illinois Terminal cars.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
11/28/99
I returned from the D.C. area yesterday from visiting my brother and family for Thanksgiving. Rode Metrorail into downtown to take care of some business. I noticed some things when leaving Shady Grove for downtown.
At some stations on the RED line I noticed that the decorative column lights that had clear globes and lights bulbs now have compact flourecsents bulbs in place. I don't think they will work out,even though the cost savings on electrical consumption and extended life are the reasons for the installation,and heres why. Compact flourescents before you install them you not to install them in inclosed fixtures. They generate heat and need to ventilate. Some of the compacts I observed that were mounted horizontally like their incandescent counterparts were drooping! I guess that the heat building up in the globe caused to plastic mounting to soften and thus the droop. WMATAT seemed to goof by accidentally shooting themselves in the foot because the life of the lamp is now shortened,thus causing more frequent replacements. I even saw a couple of incandescents possibly replacing the compact flourescent.
Also , I rode the new Green Line connection between U St-Cardozo and Fort Totten. The tunnel walls look nice and clean and those compact flourescent lamps are lights in the tunnel. NO flourescents on this stretch. I guess that leaves the section of the GREEN line from Anacostia to Branch Ave as the remnaining extension of the Metro system. No others seem to be planned.
And last but notleast , the Metrorail cars. I noticed mixing of 2000 series and 3000 series on one line. And when I rode the RED line front Fort Totten to Union Station , I noticed when the train left that the last two cars were the 1000 series ROHR AC rebuilds. The first car I was in didn't make the cocophany of sounds AC traction equipment make. Can AC and DC traction motor equipment be mixed in the same train?
Also , it was a warm and muggy day and down in the Metro, they must have turned off the AC in the stations. It wasn't hot like the NYCTA but,kinda stuffy.
Bill Newkirk
And last but notleast , the Metrorail cars. I noticed mixing of 2000 series and 3000 series on one line. And when I rode the
RED line front Fort Totten to Union Station , I noticed when the train left that the last two cars were the 1000 series ROHR
AC rebuilds. The first car I was in didn't make the cocophany of sounds AC traction equipment make. Can AC and DC
traction motor equipment be mixed in the same train?
Yes, Rohr 1000 series can be mixed with Breda 2000, 3000, or 4000 series, but I seldom see them now.
BTW, News Channel 8 reported that Metrorail's ATO will resume by next May.
Chaohwa
I am very sure of that. They said the manual control would only be used for about a month (from April to May) so when they do return, it will have been at least 13 months. It probably will be delayed by something...
Why did they turn the ATO off anyway?
Some of the relays which feed information to the train have failed, and they went to manual operation to keep things consistent. They say it should be back in ATO mode by this spring sometime.
I was on one Green Line train going from Fort Totten to Georgia Avenue Petworth which didn't get above a lazy 35MPH under manual control. That's a long stretch to be loping along! Another going in the opposite direction to West Hyattsville topped 60MPH. Go figure.
Wayne
When I was there a year ago, and the Green Line was running on the Red, when the Green train went through the connection (fly under) from the Red Line to the Green the train came out of ATO unexpectedly. I think we went BIE, the operator called their control center then proceded under manual at half the speed of what we were doing before.
It was an intresting trip.
AIUI, the stretch of connecting track that was used for the so-called "Green Line Shortcut" lacks the facilities for automatic control, since it was never intended to be used in revenue service. Your driver may have forgotten this, and thus forgotten to do whatever he's supposed to do at the cutover point, which I guess could have caused the train to go BIE.
-- Tim
From The Risks Digest, specifically http://catless.ncl.ac.uk/Risks/20.63.html:
/*
Washington DC Metrorail to Replace Relay System
The Washington DC Metro has had rampant failures among its electronic
relays, and as a result has been running the entire system manually since April 1999. The relays had a life expectancy of 70 years, having been installed in the 1970s, with an expected malfunction rate of one every 50 years. Although the source of the premature aging is still unknown, it has been decided to replace all 20,000 relays with new ones -- which is expected to permit resumption of automatic operation by May 2000.
"In December, a train was told to go 45 mph on a stretch of track with a 15 mph speed limit. In February, a train was directed to travel at 0 mph when it should have been ordered to move at 15 mph. And in March, a train was halted when it got a red, or stop, signal, but the rail ahead was clear, and it should have received a green signal to proceed."
*/
Given the attitudes about solid state technology at the time "it's perfect and never burns out!", I'm really not surprised by this. It'd be interesting to know what exactly is causeing the relays to fail too...
I just rode Metro yesterday. In manual mode, there seems to be some sort of loud beeping overspeed indicator. Several times on my trip it would go off, very loud, and the train would immediately start to slow down.
Is this the automatic system acting in some sort of "advisory" mode? Or some other system for manual use only?
This is alerting the driver he has gone over the speed limit for that section of track. For instance, in the tunnel between Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams-Morgan and DuPont Circle, trains can not go more than 65 MPH in manual mode. If the train goes 66 or more, the beeping goes off and the operator will slow down. The beeping often occurs when the speed limit goes down for instance at the curve before entering Tenleytown-AU heading towards Shady Grove.
This is alerting the driver he has gone over the speed limit for that section of track. ... If the train goes 66 or more, the beeping goes off and the operator will slow down. The beeping often occurs when the speed limit goes down ...
Thanks for the info. That makes sense. And this is same system that normally would slow the train down itself (ATO), but operating in "manual mode" it just beeps instead? Or is it a separate backup system of some sort?
I believe when the train is in automatic, it doesn't go above the limit and if it does, slows automatically. Often, the ATO will never go within 2 or 3 MPH of the limit or if it does reach the limit, goes down instantly. This happened in the fall of 1998 between Shady Grove and Rockville where we cruised at 73 or 74 the whole time and only for a second went at 75 (my record is now 77 which I saw yesterday near Grosvenor).
77 MPH is a pretty good clip for Metrorail. Did you get its unit number - was it Rohr or Breda? Both have been seen of late on the Red Line. My own personal best is owned by Rohr 1026-1027 in the tunnel approach to Benning Road, eastbound on the Blue Line. My ears really went on that ride. Fastest Breda speed I've experienced was Breda 3267 in tunnel east of Fort Totten on the Green Line, back on August 27, 1998 - 71MPH.
Wayne
do the dc trains have a railfan window ??
This was covered already in the last couple days.
They do - sortof. They have full-width cabs, but there is tinted glass behind it, so you can sit in the 'railfan' seat and see through the cab out the front. It's a full-size window, but heavily tinted, so it can be difficult to see in tunnels some of the time.
as long at it has a railfan window!!! get mad !!!!
12/08/99
Salaam,
But don't get even!
Bill Newkirk
Both times were Breda. I don't have unit numbers. The 77 MPH was the 4000 series. Was your train in manual when it went 79? I am assuming it was because the limit is 75 there.
I forget what I saw in the tunnel between Fort Totten and West Hyattsville. It was on the GLCS and we took the turn to the Greenbelt-bound tracks at 15 MPH and then sped up, I can't remember the exact speed. I only can remember the really important facts.
FYI: The third rail between Anacostia and Branch Avenue is or will be turned on soon according to the winter Metro Rider News. It was warning parents to keep their kids away from the tracks and warned people not to cross the tracks, indicating the above may have been happening. Anyone hear about this?
OK, let's talk WMATA. I started by career on Phase A of WMATA doing the block design from Rhode Island Avenue to Farragut North. Put National Airport station into service.
The max ATP speed is 75mph. OCC can send a 79mph ATS speed to train via the TWC system but the train will only go about 1 mph below 75mph. The ATS speeds are 14, 19, 24, 29, 34, 39, 44, 49, 54, 59, 64, 69, 74 and 79 mph. ATP speeds will also superceded ATS speeds.
BTW, the next car order will be with Caf of Spain.
BTW, the next car order will be with Caf of Spain.
Any idea when this order will take place?
Think it has. Should come in 2001 or 2002.
OK, ignore my query in the previous post. This partially answers my question. Now for the $64 part - is this a REPLACEMENT order for the Rohrs or is it additional equipment?
I DO like the Rohrs - they're not THAT old (only 23 years young). Let's hope they stay around a little while longer. Their motors are kind of musical when they pull into a station. I like their interiors better than the Breda cars too - extra seats, textured paneling by the doors etc. The Bredas are all vanilla inside - nice, but too plain.
Wayne
In English, please. I know most technical terms but this is a little confusing. What is the block design and what do you mean by "Put National Airport station into service"?
What is ATP? OCC? I've heard of most of this. ATS (other than my friends initals) is Automatic Train Speed. If you are saying the ATS speed is the speed on the left of the three speeds, you have a few errors. I have seen 15, 28, and 75 in the far left several times, as well as in the middle.
Thanks, in advance, for an explanation.
In English, please. I know most technical terms but this is a little confusing. What is the block design and what do you mean by "Put National Airport station into service"?
What is ATP? OCC? I've heard of most of this. ATS (other than my friends initals) is Automatic Train Speed. If you are saying the ATS speed is the speed on the left of the three speeds, you have a few errors. I have seen 15, 28, and 75 in the far left several times, as well as in the middle.
Thanks, in advance, for an explanation.
I really can't answer the question as to whether or not Rohr 1026 was running manual or ATO when we flew through the tunnel at 79 - I was fixated on the speed indicators and trying to unplug my ears! :o)
We did a neat 66 MPH run from Prince George's Pza to College Park IN THE TUBE back on October 11th. Isn't that going a little fast for that section? Also these guys come flying out of the tunnel like bats out of hell into West Hyattsville and are STILL going 50 as they enter the curve. Of course, he was begining to slow down, but the lead motor (**Breda 3046**) was at speed when the start the left turn.
My sources tell me that third rail is already hot as far as AT LEAST Naylor Road. And my Dad (Winchester VA) told me that he heard on the news that the last piece of funding $ has been secured, so the Green Line will complete, on or BEFORE the scheduled opening date, which is news to me. I have a sneak peek picture of Congress Heights, it is an Arch II, same exact coffer and vault height/design (six coffers) as MT.VERNON SQ-UDC but with mezzanine lights like GLENMONT and the two other new Green Line stations. Island platform, of course, pod is at the station's southern end.
Also what's this I hear about the next shipment of cars having a Spanish manufacturer? I assume these will be the #5000 series.
Wayne
Breda 2000 routinely mix it up with 3000's. Breda 4000s tend to stay by themselves.
A mixed Rohr-Breda consist was seen on the Red Line back on October 11 - Rohr 1000-1001; Breda 3226-3227; Rohr 1244-1245.
Is the entire Rohr fleet still active? I didn't see that many of them during twelve hours of Metrorail riding over two days. I did see two former revenue cars as work motors - Rohr 1114-1115, at Tenleytown-AU.
The only Rohr I haven't seen is 1086-1087, I wonder if that's the one that crashed in 1983 between Federal Triangle and Smithsonian.
Wayne
The cars that crashed between Federal Triangle and Smithsonian were 1028-1029. The wrecked car is 1029 and 1028 is used for jobs like transporting work crews.
Thank you, Thank you and THANK YOU! .
I've been searching for that piece of information since the day it happened.
Wayne
Perhaps you know the answer to this one as well - did they have to dismantle the wrecked car on the spot or were they able to pull it out of there?
There are two DC other wrecks that I know of: Breda 3191 (cowl, anticlimber and shear pin damage - looked repairable), and Breda 3252 (telescoping: 21 feet; total loss). I also noticed two Breda cars (3290 and 3291) NOT in the original range. I wonder if Breda 3190 is now 3290 and Breda 3253 is now 3291. I also recall that Rohr 1044 and 1045 had a fire some years back.
Wayne
can you railfan window washington dc subway trains ??
DC Metrorail trains all have full-width cabs, i.e., no failfan windows. However, the left side of the separation is a transparent window. We still can railfan from the left side. Not only can we watch the scenes ahead of the train, but also the speed of the train.
As for photography or videotaping behind the cab, the operators usually do not allow you to do that. I am not really sure about photography policy of DC Metrorail.
Chaohwa
please ask them! in new york they didnt bother me when i did it as long as i told nte motorman that i wasnt
shooting people just trains rails etc.
remember i was told i couldnt vidieo NYC ??
ANYWAY who told you tihis and when??
did you try to vidieotape the WASH
D.C. SUBWAY ???
what did they tell you hell no ??
just curious ! salaamallah@yahoo.com
I think DC has different policies. That you can videotape in NYC subway does not mean that you can videotape in DC Metrorail.
I did videotape one time on the Red line. When I began to pick up my camcorder to videotape behind the cab, the operator told me not to videotape it. I feel that operators are more sensitive to camcorders than cameras. Since then, I only take pictures on DC Metrorail.
Chaohwa
If you want to see what I think of WMATA's policy on photography, just go to The Washington DC Metro Page for a line-by-line, station-by-station tour. Every one's there, with about 70 new pictures as of November 1st. A picture's worth a thousand farecards. Ahhh, those wonderful waffles; those amazing arches....those beautiful Bredas...those ravishing Rohrs....Metro is a true thing of beauty.
Of course, I never flash in the Attendant's face as he/she enters the station. AFAIC everything else is fair game.
Wayne
As for taking pictures, I totally agree with you. However, when I use camcorders, it seems that operators are sensitive to camcorders.
Chaohwa
The high, open vaults in the Metro stations are very photogenic. I can get good quality pictures even with my point-and-shoot (using Kodak 400 Gold Max, of course). Only at Pentagon (DARK) and Foggy Bottom (DARKER STILL) did my camera's flash fail to penetrate the gloom. They need more/better lights at Pentagon and they need a whitewash/sandblast job (like they did at Capitol South and others) at Foggy Bottom - the track dust has grimed the entire vault; and some of the sidewall lights are out. Yep, it's mighty foggy down there.
Alas, a camcorder is not among my various and sundry toys (yet). Probably the next toy will either be another guitar or a digital camera. I'd be leery of taking such a toy on ANY rapid transit system, security &c. nonwithstanding.
Any word on how they're making out "down south" on the Green Line extension? Any station shells/ROW's/structures up yet? The hourglass ran out on me back on October 12th - my planned auto trip out there didn't materialize.
Wayne
I imagine they are worried about you taping them doing their job. I could see being worried that someone might be out to document procedures to build some sort of legal case, either against wmata, or the employee. Either way, that possibility would make me uncomfortable if I were operating that train.
DC Metro is unusual in that with the big window, you have just as good a view of the console as of the tunnel.
The wrecked car had to be taken apart and removed from the tunnel in pieces. It then took 5 days to rebuild the destroyed tracks.
12/01/99
There seems to be a pattern of wrecks on this system. I thought ATO is fail safe and this would be prevented.
Bill Newkirk
There have been (AS FAR AS I KNOW) only TWO major wrecks on Metrorail since it opened in 1976.
One involved Rohr cars under manual control which split a switch and derailed into the curtain wall between Smithsonian and Fed'l Triangle on Jan. 13, 1983. The train entered the switch in error and was trying to back up when the switch closed. Three people died in the accident. Thanks to Rob S for giving me the unit number involved - Rohr 1029.
The other was January 6, 1996 at Shady Grove when a T/O overshot a red signal at the station in ice conditions and hit a parked train in the yard beyond. The car (Breda 3252) that did the hitting was telescoped 21 feet and the T/O died.
Don't know of any other wrecks, but only two in 23 years...
Wayne
The cars that crashed between Federal Triangle and Smithsonian were 1028-1029. The wrecked car is 1029 and 1028 is used for jobs like transporting work crews.
Thank you, Thank you and THANK YOU! .
I've been searching for that piece of information since the day it happened.
Wayne
Perhaps you know the answer to this one as well - did they have to dismantle the wrecked car on the spot or were they able to pull it out of there?
There are two DC other wrecks that I know of: Breda 3191 (cowl, anticlimber and shear pin damage - looked repairable), and Breda 3252 (telescoping: 21 feet; total loss). I also noticed two Breda cars (3290 and 3291) NOT in the original range. I wonder if Breda 3190 is now 3290 and Breda 3253 is now 3291. I also recall that Rohr 1044 and 1045 had a fire some years back.
Wayne
can you railfan window washington dc subway trains ??
DC Metrorail trains all have full-width cabs, i.e., no failfan windows. However, the left side of the separation is a transparent window. We still can railfan from the left side. Not only can we watch the scenes ahead of the train, but also the speed of the train.
As for photography or videotaping behind the cab, the operators usually do not allow you to do that. I am not really sure about photography policy of DC Metrorail.
Chaohwa
please ask them! in new york they didnt bother me when i did it as long as i told nte motorman that i wasnt
shooting people just trains rails etc.
remember i was told i couldnt vidieo NYC ??
ANYWAY who told you tihis and when??
did you try to vidieotape the WASH
D.C. SUBWAY ???
what did they tell you hell no ??
just curious ! salaamallah@yahoo.com
I think DC has different policies. That you can videotape in NYC subway does not mean that you can videotape in DC Metrorail.
I did videotape one time on the Red line. When I began to pick up my camcorder to videotape behind the cab, the operator told me not to videotape it. I feel that operators are more sensitive to camcorders than cameras. Since then, I only take pictures on DC Metrorail.
Chaohwa
If you want to see what I think of WMATA's policy on photography, just go to The Washington DC Metro Page for a line-by-line, station-by-station tour. Every one's there, with about 70 new pictures as of November 1st. A picture's worth a thousand farecards. Ahhh, those wonderful waffles; those amazing arches....those beautiful Bredas...those ravishing Rohrs....Metro is a true thing of beauty.
Of course, I never flash in the Attendant's face as he/she enters the station. AFAIC everything else is fair game.
Wayne
As for taking pictures, I totally agree with you. However, when I use camcorders, it seems that operators are sensitive to camcorders.
Chaohwa
The high, open vaults in the Metro stations are very photogenic. I can get good quality pictures even with my point-and-shoot (using Kodak 400 Gold Max, of course). Only at Pentagon (DARK) and Foggy Bottom (DARKER STILL) did my camera's flash fail to penetrate the gloom. They need more/better lights at Pentagon and they need a whitewash/sandblast job (like they did at Capitol South and others) at Foggy Bottom - the track dust has grimed the entire vault; and some of the sidewall lights are out. Yep, it's mighty foggy down there.
Alas, a camcorder is not among my various and sundry toys (yet). Probably the next toy will either be another guitar or a digital camera. I'd be leery of taking such a toy on ANY rapid transit system, security &c. nonwithstanding.
Any word on how they're making out "down south" on the Green Line extension? Any station shells/ROW's/structures up yet? The hourglass ran out on me back on October 12th - my planned auto trip out there didn't materialize.
Wayne
I imagine they are worried about you taping them doing their job. I could see being worried that someone might be out to document procedures to build some sort of legal case, either against wmata, or the employee. Either way, that possibility would make me uncomfortable if I were operating that train.
DC Metro is unusual in that with the big window, you have just as good a view of the console as of the tunnel.
The wrecked car had to be taken apart and removed from the tunnel in pieces. It then took 5 days to rebuild the destroyed tracks.
12/01/99
There seems to be a pattern of wrecks on this system. I thought ATO is fail safe and this would be prevented.
Bill Newkirk
There have been (AS FAR AS I KNOW) only TWO major wrecks on Metrorail since it opened in 1976.
One involved Rohr cars under manual control which split a switch and derailed into the curtain wall between Smithsonian and Fed'l Triangle on Jan. 13, 1983. The train entered the switch in error and was trying to back up when the switch closed. Three people died in the accident. Thanks to Rob S for giving me the unit number involved - Rohr 1029.
The other was January 6, 1996 at Shady Grove when a T/O overshot a red signal at the station in ice conditions and hit a parked train in the yard beyond. The car (Breda 3252) that did the hitting was telescoped 21 feet and the T/O died.
Don't know of any other wrecks, but only two in 23 years...
Wayne
I did saw several Red line trains mixed with Breda 3000 and 4000 series.
The Rohr fleet is indeed active. You can found them more on Orange and Blue lines.
Chaohwa
I've noticed many mixed consist trains (Breda and Rohr) on the Red Line lately.
Wayne
Yes they can mix 2000 and 3000 cars without much of a problem. Mixing the Rohr and Bredas isn't much of a problem either except if the Breda cars are not the first, the PA doesn't work well at all (you can hear something, but not clearly). When the Breda cars are leading, there are no noticable differences. I have been on RRBBRR and can not recall how that was (I was on the last car, it may have been BBRRBB).
Yes one extension beyond the original "concept" IS planned, and may open by 2005 if funding can be secured and an environmental impact study is completed - the Blue Line is planned to be extended east from Addison Road to Largo Town Center with an intermediate station at Summerfield.
The Green Line extension to Branch Avenue is scheduled to open in late 2001, right around the same time as our vaunted 63rd Street Connection. New stations: Congress Heights (underground-the last one for the time being), Southern Avenue (open cut, like White Flint), Naylor Road (elevated structure), Suitland and Branch Avenue (both at grade).
Wayne
I heard that there is a prosposal to have the Manhattan Bridge tracks at Canal street used for a new Y train service.
Where did you hear about this proposal? Where else would it operate? A "Y" train? People could have a lot of fun with that.
"How do I get to Coney Island?"
"Y."
"I don't know. That's why I'm asking you!"
(Sounds a little like an Abbott & Costello bit.)
11/28/99
I believe that the designation (Y) is reserved for the (hah hah hah) Second Ave. subway. I saw an artists conception of the 2nd Ave line years ago and an R-46 type car with the "bullet" (Y) on the end of the car.
It seems fitting since the proposed 2nd Ave line is either drowning in promises,fantasy or pessimism. Hence (Y) as in WHY ?
Bill Newkirk
It seems fitting since the proposed 2nd Ave line is either drowning in promises,fantasy or pessimism. Hence (Y) as in WHY ?
In this case, its not pronounced "WHY", but "IF" or "WHEN". The answer you always get is "NEVER"!
This “Y” train is not the only proposed new line that may or may not be. In James Clifford Greller’s book “New York City Subway Trains”, they showed a picture of a GOH Slant R-40 with a “V” train designation.
I've seen #4272-4273, #4282-4283, #4254-4255, #4322-4323, #4176-7 all wearing "W"s, AND #4268-4269 wearing a big orange "V".
#4320-4321 has an ORANGE "N". Go figure THAT one out.
Wayne
11/29/99
[#4320-4321 has an ORANGE "N". Go figure THAT one out.]
Are you sure Wayne? Maybe the yellow "bullets" are darken than the usual yellow?
Bill Newkirk
I am 99.44% sure. For openers it had a WHITE letter (not black). It was on Track 7 at Coney Island, October 18, 1998. It was around 1PM, and it was the north end of the train, so the sign was slightly in the shade. I looked and saw orange. I looked again and saw orange. I looked AGAIN, and saw orange. Mark Feinman was there and I asked HIM - HE saw orange. Having had no intoxicating or mind-altering substances in my system, I came to the following conclusion: the sign was truly ORANGE, perhaps a manufacturer's error. The side signs in the same car, and its wife, by the way, were all Broadway Yellow with black letters, as was the sign in #4321's end window.
Wayne
Orange it was. (I oughtta check one of these days and see if I have that on video ....)
--Mark
That seems to be an old style sign. Remember in the past, a white letter was always used, but to distinguish it from the yellow surrounding, they made the yellow orangey on the signs. The N on unrebuilt R-46's was like this, and I not too long ago saw an R like this. Right before the Metrocard was at all stations, a guide poster was produced listing all the stations and lines that serve them, and the orange normally used on 6th av was used for the N & R with white letters, while B D F & Q were a deeper orange. I like the deeper gold better, because it is less confused with orange (it is made by keeping the red balanced with the green). It's even more visible.
qu
I should have at least made an attempt to get a picture of that, even though it was in shade. Next time, if I see it, I will try and get a picture although it's probably wearing an orange "Q" now. Funny, I got several sunny-side pictures of #4320 and #4321 that day.
Wonder how our old friend the D-Type is making out...
Wayne
In January I plan to travel to Detroit to attend the Auto Show, the
first in America for the year 2000. After researching many things on
the internet regrading Detroit, I was agast to discover their transit
system is nearly non-existant. They have a three mile monorail with
fifteen stops around downtown. They have a small trolley system and
two inner-city bus lines! Now I know that they build cars there, but
when I discovered this situation it made me realize that the transit
system (THE LACK OF) probably help cause that city's decline. The
downtown area used to be a shopping mecca and now it's all moved to
the malls surrounding the city. Not an uncommon circumstance these
days, but a shame nontheless. When I return from that trip, I will
share my findings with this site. My son and I are driving there in
our Taurus wagon. We will have a car at our disposal, but will attempt
to use the system as much as possible. One more thing. My son (22 yrs)
recently went to California for his college intership. He is currently
serving as an intern for the Conan O'Brien show. (he now commutes 160 miles a day by bus, then walks to the studio) He stayed in Culver City
and had to travel to Burbank each day. A twenty mile trip sometimes
took 90 minutes because he had to transfer between 3 bus lines. That
is appalling. He is in NYC every day of the week and remarks about how
excellent the subways work. He hopes to land a job with NBC or any
other TV network and reside in NYC. Thanks for listening. Hope every-
one had a great Thanksgiving!
That's certainly a good cause.
All major US cities have some kind of public transit system except for Detroit and no other city has seen quite the type of decline and decay that Detroit has seen.
L.A. is in somewhat of the same class as Detroit. The city is quite expansive(the city proper is in the neighborhood of 470 sq. mi.) and yet has a working transit system, even rapid rail.
Older large cities like Chicago, Boston, Philadelphia and especially New York, grew around their transit systems which is why they are integral parts of the city infrastructure and help give each city varying levels of success.
Cities like L.A. will probably never be commercial centers quite like the large cities of the Northeast, because their systems are so new and the city is already developed. I doubt that Detroit can pull itself out of it's rut unless it can find some way to lure people back, and public transit is a part of that.
you are wrong !!! HAVE YOU EVER RODE ON THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER ??
two automated irt size cars run on a singe trak in a large loop
( mostly downtown ) with SUBWAY AND EL STATIONS!! at least over
13 of them and with a RAILFAN WINDOW!!! check that out!!!
i hope next time you try this out and remember dont forget the
RAIL FAN WINDOW when you ride the DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER !!!!
salaamallah@yahoo.com thank you !!
I didn't mean anything about the system in terms of spec size. I'm sure the people movers are fine vehicles.
I'm stating that in a city like Detroit, the lack of a decent sized public transit system(and by size, I mean area served and/or vehicle modes-light rail/trolley, subway, trackless trolley, commuter rail, bus) is part of the city's decay. I can't think of another American city comparable to it.
[(and by size, I mean area served and/or vehicle modes-light
rail/trolley, subway, trackless trolley, commuter rail, bus)]
And Philadelphia is one of the only cities that utilizes all of those modes of transit
And Philadelphia is one of the only cities that utilizes all of those modes of transit
So is an Francisco. They even have one more - cable cars.
[So is San Francisco. They even have one more - cable cars]
Commuter Rail?
[[So is San Francisco. They even have one more - cable cars]
[Commuter Rail?]
Yes (Caltrain).
And BART.
Boston is also served by all those modes of transit.
[Boston is also served by all those modes of transit.]
Trackless Trolley?
As I recall, they do. Philly, SF and Boston are in a unique club among transit cities.
I don't remember any trackless trolley in Boston.
I don't remember any trackless trolley in Boston.
I don't either. As far as I know, only Philly and SF are the only cities in the US that have them? Am I missing any? Does Toronto have any Tracklesses?
Dayton, Ohio has trackless trolleys.
This I learned from Jon Bell's Transit Pages.
Dayton, Ohio has trackless trolleys.
Nice!
If by "trackless trolley" y'all mean buses powered from overhead wires, there are still a few routes going to Harvard Square in Cambridge (and Watertown, I think), but none in Boston proper.
I've done a little Net searching and found all the US metro areas with trackless trolleys. They are in order of population:
Philadelphia, PA-SEPTA
San Fransisco, CA-Muni
Boston, MA-Help me here. MBTA?
Seattle, WA-Here too.
Dayton, OH-MVTA(Miami Valley Transit Authority)
Now back to real trolleys....
Cleveland, Ohio, may be added to the list soon. Check the website for the Greater Cleveland Transit Authority for details of their plans. I don't have the link; I always go through the NARP website, which has links to most major U.S. transit agencies.
Boston's MBTA still has trackless. Seattle Metro has them too (I think it's still called Seattle Metro).
On the points raised about Detroit, I think the shape of the city isn't necessarily related to the transit system. Look at fairly large Midwest cities such as Columbus, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Louisville, and you see smaller than expected bus transit systems. The ridership isn't there - most have taken to the private automobile. The interstate highways offer fairly easy commutes and that's that. Also, in Detroit, the streets are very wide, and congestion has never really been a problem, so cars will fare better than transit.
i agree with you sir !! i used to live there just north of eight mile road and i m telleing you THEY BLEW IT IN DETROIT YES THE DID!!
no trolley no trolley bus no light rail NO SUBWAY and hardly even
A BUS !!!! no womder the city DIED !!!! DEAD !!!
[I'm stating that in a city like Detroit, the lack of a decent sized public transit system(and by size, I mean area served and/or vehicle modes-light rail/trolley, subway, trackless trolley, commuter rail, bus) is part of the city's decay. I can't think of another American city comparable to it.]
Houston's metropolitan area is close to Detroit's in terms of population and has no rail-based transit. Houston may have a more extensive bus system, at least within city limits. Light rail has been proposed but I don't believe anything's happened yet.
Detroit's lack of rail transit is not particularly surprising. It is a classic case of a relatively rundown city surrounded by prosperous suburbs. As a result, a high percentage of the commuting in the metro area involves suburb-to-suburb trips, which transit cannot well serve.
It's like I said, no transit no big Downtown, no big Downtown, no cost effective transit. In 1990, there were fewer people working in Downtown Detroit than in Downtown Brooklyn. The new stadia are not going Downtown due to any interest in cities among the residents of southeast Michigan. They are going downtown because suburban land is valuable and suburban roads are crowded. Downtown, land is worth little and highways are empty.
Hi
I started a new ,unrelated issue,One list for Bus People ,,
Please help me out and pass this along to your friends
Thanks
Steve
http://www.onelist.com/community/NYCMETROAREABUSES
I know nothing about the specs of subway cars and I wonder if someone could tell me the average weight of a subway car currently in use? It's not something I can come across easily, it seems, but one of you knowledgeable subway folks must know. Thanks.
I'll try my best....
I know that R-32's weigh abut 35 tons, so I'll cautiously say later cars have comparable weights because of the use of stainless steel. However, I recall reading that the TA fleet has most of their weight in the trucks and running gear.
I'll also name a few other subway specs:
Gauge: 4'8.5"(standard for entire system)
Length: IND/BMT cars go from 60'(R 32/38), 67'(R 40/40M/42/110B) and 75'(R 44/46/68/68A).
IRT cars are 51'8" standard.
Width: All IND/BMT cars are 10 feet wide and IRT cars are 8'9" wide.
Height:I believe IRT cars are 11 or 12 feet and IND/BMT is 12 feet.
Stations: Avg. IRT platform is aound 525 feet, BMT is 600 feet and IND is 660 feet(a whopping 1/8 of a mile long!)
Some of your facts are wrong
I know that R-32's weight about 35 tons,
Actually that was before overhaul. Add 8,000 Lbs after.
Length: IND/BMT cars go from 60'(R 32/38), 67'(R 40/40M/42/110B) and 75'(R 44/46/68/68A).
Actually R-32 through R-42 are 60'6" over the couplers. Only the R-110B is 67'
The heights and widths are essentially correct.
OK now we know what the R-32's weigh. What about the rest? ( is this like Miss America or what ) Height, Weight, width and other critical measurements.
The height of these R-32’s was 12’ 1-5/8” from the top of the rail to the top of the car. Side doors were (by my calculations) 46” × 75”, and the positioning of the distance between side doors (14’ 7”) was the same as was on the previous R-27/30/30A’s. By the way, I much preferred the original look of the R-32’s to what they look like now, and if I have to make a choice of which rebuilt version I prefer, I’d have to take the ten GE-rebuilt cars over the ones MK did.
"....I’d have to take the ten GE-rebuilt cars over the ones MK did."
Maybe in the Winter.
Figure if you are going to save one at your local railway car museum, I would take the GE version too. Cost savings of the R-122 and associated amperage of an A/C retro is enough to bankrupt even the best of the outfits. I'd also figure that because the marker lights and express/local lights have rivited shields over them, installing the lenses and fixtures back shoult be a breeze. Id grab a handful of side door panels from R36s if they would fit the B door tracks to line up the panel glass with the European picture windows and paint them blue. The storm doors from junk R30s would complete any restoration. I wouldn't even think about saving ANYTHING from R40 and up. Too many mods to bring back to a near original condition. And less stainless steel than the R32. Some of the R40/42s look like rustbuckets, especially around the bonnets.
Um, Harry, are you talking (hypothetically) about un-GOH'ing
one of the GE rebuild R32s? Don't you think all the ceiling
and lighting mods would be tough to undo?
Here, here. I loved the original blue doors on the R-32s, and the green backlit "Coney Island" side signs made my day every day. OK, I suppose I can do without the backlit side signs, but for heaven's sake, they should do something about those illegible electronic route signs up front. Like bring back the good old route and destination roller curtains.
And, of course, speed 'em up just a bit.
You asked for it!!!!
Length = 60' 2 1/2" over anticlimbers or 58' 9 1/2" at roof peak
width 10' 7/16" over the G/Light housings
height 12' 1 7/16" from rail-head
weight after overhaul 79,970 Phase I, 79,930 Phase II
Original cost $114,951 per car
Buffalo Transit Overhaul cost$576,000 per car
Morrison Knudsen overhaul cost $476,000 per car
You really like this car, huh Steve?
lol
Chris,
I like the car as it is probably the most durable, simplest to maintain and most reliable car in its class. However, I don't see how that relates to my posting. I mearly answered someones question about R-32 stats.
god bless them!! i bet the new cars only last less than 10 YEARS BEFORE THEY ARE SCRAPPED AS USELESS JUNK !! right folks ????
YEAH!!!Along with your railfan windows!
A vain attempt at humor goes unappreciated. Oh well ...
$576G per GE/Buffalo Transit GOH AND THE A/C DOESN'T WORK!
Oh, PHOOEY!
Well at least the MKCo GOH's have the COLDEST A/C in the entire system, that's a lock. Those cars are ICEBOXES in the summer.
"Stone" cold indeed.
Wayne
12/03/99
A dispatcher friend of mine nicknamed those 10 GE rebuilt R-32's the "School teachers". Because just like school teachers (most of them) they're off for the summer. Since these AC units aren't working due to parts are not available and they aren't cost effective to repair, the cars spend the summer laid up. That's one 10 car train O/S because somebody goofed!
Bill Newkirk
Actually, platforms of the BMT Southern Division are 615’ as it stands now. The Eastern Division stations stand anywhere from 530’ to 545’. IRT cars stand 11’ 10-3/8” tall, IND/BMT’s anywhere from 12’ 1½” to 12’ 1-15/16”. Car lengths actually are as follows: IRT – 51’ 0½” over anti-climbers, 51’ 4” over couplers; IND-BMT R-1 through -42, 60’ 2½” and 60’ 6”, respectively, and the R-44, R-46 and R-68 are, respectively, 74’ 8½” and 75’.
As for third rail positioning: On the IRT, from the track rail gauge to the center of the third rail is 26” and from the top of the track rail to the top of the third rail is 4”. On the IND-BMT, the distance from track gauge to third rail center is 27-9/16”, and from top of track rail to top of third rail is 3½”.
[Gauge: 4'8.5"(standard for entire system)
Length: IND/BMT cars go from 60'(R 32/38), 67'(R 40/40M/42/110B) and 75'(R 44/46/68/68A).
IRT cars are 51'8" standard.
Width: All IND/BMT cars are 10 feet wide and IRT cars are 8'9" wide.
Height:I believe IRT cars are 11 or 12 feet and IND/BMT is 12 feet.
Stations: Avg. IRT platform is aound 525 feet, BMT is 600 feet and IND is 660 feet(a whopping 1/8 of a mile long!)]
It seems to me that every spec I've seen for IRT width is a litle bit different. Can anyone verify that this is the actual figure?
Another question: does anyone know the specs for PATH?
The IRT specs that I have are from the TA for the redbirds:
51' 1/2" over anticlimbers (length)
8' 9" over sills (floor width)
8' 10 3/16" over conductor's signal boxes (roof width)
11' 10 3/8" (height) from track to top of roof
BMT/IND specs:
60' 2 1/2 " over anticlimbers (length)
9' 9 7/16"over eaves
10' 7/16" over conductor's signal boxes (roof width)
11' 10 3/8" (height) from track to top of roof
The R-40's, 40M's and 42's are not 67'. All B-Division cars from R-1 through R-42 carried the same specs.
Thanks
IM SORRY FOLKS but i I was very happy to see the old r 30S even if
they were just being used for props !!!
INSTEAD I wish they were operastional on THE LOS ANGELES RED LINE
HEAVY RAIL !! if new york must retire the redbirds off the irt
the greatest thing would happen if at least one complete train
could run thru the los angeles tunnels here and could
DOUBLE UP as a running prop or NOSTALGA TRAIN !!!
then riding the los angeles metro RED LINE i guess im dreaming
the impossible !!!
then at least we would have a railfan window for the first time !!!
salaamallah@yahoo,com cars are resting on the 134 -210 freeway
near glendale
well at least the DERTOIT PEOPLE MOVER has rail fan windows even if
it is an automated two car single loop irt size car downtown trip
with about 13 stations !!!
i guess i will ptotograph a vidieo of this also!!!!
BUT AT LEAST IT HAS A RAIL FAN WINDOW !! cant be all bad !!
I'm prompted to ask because of a recent experince while riding the Market-Frankford El.
I wondered how people riding from Millbourne got to 69th Street without paying.
Let me set it up for you.
Millbourne, the penultimate stop to 69th Street, is the least trafficked of all stations on the line(even Berks, ugh!).
Millbourne's fare control is on the city-bound side with no free crossover to the other side.
Waiting for a 69th St. bound train at Millbourne, as the train pulled in, the TO asked me what I doing on the platform. I told her I was going to 69th Street. She asked for a token/pass herself. After presenting my transpass, she opened the door. I got a few less-than-savory comments from those deboarding so I'm assuming it's not a common occurance.
When I've gone past Millbourne during rush-hours, I see 3-5 people on the city-bound platform and none except those detraining during other times.
This, more so than Berks, gets my vote for the station to close down. Are there any subway stations you'd like to see closed?
I am speaking as someone who does not live in Philadelphia, but who also enjoys visiting it to experience its unique transit offerings. Millbourne station is a charming contrast to both the bustling 69th Street terminal and the very urban stations on the "L". The setting is so rustic, it's one of the treasures of the Market-Frankford line. It kind of reminds me of the ground-level stations on the now-lost Garfield Park line (Chicago) in Oak Park, Forest Park, and Maywood. It might be lightly patronized, but I, for one, would regret its passing.
[Are there any subway stations you'd like to see closed?]
I think there are quite a few that should be closed or bypassed, but only to speed up the system--it's no longer necessary to have token clerks, so there's no economic reason--and that not until the TA starts operating the trains at reasonable speeds again--why inconvenience people because of fear of lawsuits, bad decisions about safety, and an antiquated signal system?
*Then* let's see skip stop service on all outlying lines, e presses with feeder bus service in two line areas, supere presses, that sort of thing.
This is in response to an earlier posting about express service at Marcy Avenue on the Broadway El. Prior to Chrystie Street there were two express services, the #10 Myrtle-Chambers Express and the #15 Jamaica Express both of which ran rush hours only in the direction of traffic. The #10 ran express only between Myrtle Avenue and Marcy Avenue. It had been skipping Marcy Avenue prior to February 23,1960.
The #15 ran express between Eastern Parkway and Essex Street stopping only at Myrtle Avenue and using the local tracks through the Marcy Avenue Station but not stopping there.
The #10 became the M after Chrstie Street and continued to run express up until August 27,1976 when the first K was discontinued.
The #15 was replaced by both the QJ and RJ express services. QJ only after June 28,1968 and the QJ was replaced by the J on January 2,1973.
The J continued the #15 express service up until August 27,1976 when the first K was discontinued. After that the J used the started stopping at Marcy Avenue and used the local tracks east of Myrtle Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, the BMT division began ditching numbers for its routes in favor of IND-style lettering in 1960 which was symbolized by the arrival of the first R-27 cars. The #15 was transformed into the J (express) and JJ (local), the #10 into the M and the #14 into the KK (Mark I). The QJ line actually came into being on Nov. 26, 1967, when the Chrystie Street connection opened, as did the RJ. The JJ line was discontinued on July 1, 1968, when the Sixth Avenue KK (Mark II) between 57th Street (Manhattan) and 168th Street (Jamaica) was instituted. Interesting how, after first being shortened to K (in January of 1973) and then discontinued on the date cited in the prior thread, said single-letter designation (and color of dark blue, which I believe was Pantone PMS 285 or 293) was briefly applied in the ’80’s to what was once the Eighth Avenue AA line. All the timeline of when the QJ became the J is seconded.
And about this whole schleboodle about the R line and switching from Astoria to Forest Hills around 1988-89: In its previous life as the RR, the line DID go to Forest Hills “originally”, between 1955 (when it was known as the #2) and 1967, when it was switched to Astoria. That was how the ill-fated EE (which was discontinued around the same time as the 6th Avenue-Broadway Brooklyn K) came into being.
While the Southern Division of the BMT started using letters in 1960 when the first R27s arrived, the Triplexes continued to use the numbers until they were retired in 1965, and the Eastern Division lines used numbers on R16s and Multis until Chrystie St. opened in 1967.
As to RR (or R, or No. 2 - Fourth Ave. Local) service to Forest Hills, the early history goes:
1954 opening - Jan, 1961 - served by Brighton Local (No. 1 or QT).
Jan, 1961 - Nov., 1967 - served by Fourth Ave. Local (No. 2 or RR).
Starting Nov., 1967 - served by EE.
-- Ed Sachs
I remember seeing a 4th Ave. local on the Queens Blvd. line (BMT standards) in the summer of 1958.
If I remember correctly in 1958 4thy Ave Local Trains used R-Units. The Brighton Local still went to Forest Hills that summer. I took it all the way to Brooklyn from Rego Park 3 times a week.
The 4th Ave local ran on the IND from 1960-67. Before then, it was the Brighton line.
Most of the 4th Ave local was using R1 units borrowed from the IND in the early 50's.
The R-1s ran on the BMT 4th Ave. Local from about 1949 (after the R-10s arrived) until about 1954 (when the R-16s arrived). During the period from 1961-67 when the trains ran via Queens Blvd., they were running R-27/30s (with Standards running in early 1961 as the R-27/30s were being delivered and phased into service).
-- Ed Sachs
Ed..I distinctly remember R/1s (or maybe R/4s) running on the 4th ave local during the summer of 1958.
Carl M.
I recall seeing R-1s occasionally on the 4th Ave. local as late as 1958 also, but they were very rare indeed by that time.
-- Ed Sachs
I remember seeing R Units on the 4th Ave, I do not have a roster on hand but they usually were in the 1000-1199 Series. I definately new they ran in 58 from Astoria to 95th St/Ft Hamilton
Ed Sachs already commented on the fact that the original BMT Forest Hills service was the Brighton Local (with the Brighton Express going to Astoria).
In the initial days of R27 use, it was Southern Division only equipment, so for some time the Eastern Division continued to use 10, 14, 15 and 16 on the R16s. The "M" designation was always intended for the Myrtle-Chambers service but was originally used (pre-Chrystie) for the Fourth Avenue-Nassau Express.
Remember those cross reference signs on Southern Division BMT station platforms? They carried the herald, "Know Trains at a Glance" which promoted the new letter code. There was a reference to the M, which was designated simply as "Nassau St. Express". I remember seeing one of those signs in the summer of 1967; they were removed when the Chrystie St. connection opened. Shore Line has one of them on display in their maintenance barn.
Steve: That was about the only drawback to the R-32's. The signs only carried the Manhattan routes,not both the Brooklyn and Manhattan routes the way the R-27's did. Prior to Chrystie Street the J,JJ and KK reading were never used and the M was used for the Brighton and Fourth Avenue Nassau Street services.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Right. The R-32s only had "Broadway" or "Nassau St." as the subscript up front and as the title on the sides. The lone exception was the TT, which had "West End". The TA must have figured that Southern Division riders would be accustomed to the new letter code by the time the R-32s arrived and that the old titles wouldn't be necessary. Instead, it only created more confusion. Incidentally, the R-27s and R-30s received new route curtains when Chrystie St. opened; they no longer carried the old titles and mimicked the R-32s (perhaps they were cannibalized from the R-32s). That JJ train I took in early 1968 had "JJ-Nassau St. Local" on its side curtains.
From 1965-67, they also used "M" for the Brighton-Nassau Express (Bankers Special). R-32s in those days.
-- Ed Sachs
I was looking at the June 1998 issue of the New York Division ERA Bulletin. They reported that the MDBF (Mean Distance Between Failures ) for the R-110A was 20,421 miles compared with 159,442 miles for the R-62.
Now if the performance of the R-142 is anything like the R-110A, it will bring the stats for the TA way down. That's why I am suggesting that the TA measure MDBF for the R-142 in meters instead of miles. Since there are 1609 meters in 1 mile, then even if the R-142 broke down on average every 100 miles, as is feared by some of the more critical people around here, its MDBF would be 160,900 meters---which is a much larger number than the R-62's 159,442 miles. Since meters and miles are often abbreviated with the letter m, it could all be taken for an honest mistake.
Given that the MDBF varies so widely from model to model and maker to maker, why doesn't the MTA include a penalty clause in its contracts pegged to reliability?
Because that would make sense. I recently did some work for a government agency. I exceeded what the contract spec'd and finished ahead of time. Another company was responsible for the next phase of the contract and delivered EXACTLY what the contract specified. NO WHERE in the contract did it specify that all of the equipment had to work together, even work at all, or that a server needed to be able to handle more than a single user at a time. It's all housed in a very impressive looking rack, but that's about all that it's good for. Lots of pretty lights and little beepers going off every so often. Your tax dollars at work.
This afternoon, while I was on the D train
travelling to the Port Authority Terminal to watch
Greyhound Bus Operations on their busiest day, I
noted as the train lumbered into Cortlandt Street
that there were lighted Red Exit Signs mounted from
the ceiling near the exits. They seemed like signs
that you would see in a movie theater or other
public place. I never noticed that before in the
subway. As best as I could, I looked at the
following stations on the way to 34th Street, but
did not notice any other stations like that. So
what gives?
It would seem like a great idea in the event of a
fire or smoke condition. I wonder whether they are
hooked up to an emergency power supply. I wonder
whether the bulbs are high intensity enough to be
seen in a fire. I wonder how well exits to the
street are lit up in fire conditions. The MTA has
gone to great lengths to provide annoyingly bright
blue lights in the tunnel. There are many stations
in the system that are mazes of passageways before
you get to the street. My apartment house must have
maps posted on the walls that show escape routes in
the event of a fire. I have a feeling that this is
an issue that is not addressed by MTA, and it is a
very worrisome issue to me. I think in that really
horrible escalator fire in the London system, people
floundered around looking for an exit--- with some
people actually be directed to the main body of fire
by mistake.
If that's the same london escalaor fire I'm thinlkng of, I recall that one TV show on this mentioned that the smoke, etc, was unreported for quite a while (people noticed it, but were more amused by smoke comming up between the steps).
On a slightly related point - my parents toldme that a few motels they were at out west recent had exit signs at both the normal ceiling location *and* right at floor level, which seems like a senseable idea.
I always thought that those 5 bulbs by the stairs were third rail poered, though I never seen any flickering (which they would on parts of the system that use 25hz AC converted to 60HZ - Where does Amtrak and the NYC subway get that stuff from anyway?)
[I always thought that those 5 bulbs by the stairs were third rail poered, though I never seen any
flickering (which they would on parts of the system that use 25hz AC converted to 60HZ - Where
does Amtrak and the NYC subway get that stuff from anyway?)]
Since the third rail is DC, bulbs powered from that should not show any flickering. 25 Hz is supposedly used in the signal system, but the signal lights themselves never seem to flicker. It may not be used to actually power the signal lights, or it may be rectified and filtered within the control box for each signal - perhaps "Mr. Train Control" can explain.
Those new lighted exit signs are also on the rebuilt Park Place (2,3) platform, I believe. My reaction on seeing them was that they were a waste of money, but probably required by some new regulations.
[[On a slightly related point - my parents toldme that a few motels they were at out west recent had exit signs at both the normal ceiling location *and* right at floor level, which seems like a senseable idea.]]
Very Senseable! Exit signs in buildings in Japan all follow this convention, with an exit sign repeated near the floor. If you are crawling on your hands and knees in a heavy-smoke situation, you can still find your way out. This seems to be ruled by either state or city building codes in the US, so you don't see it nationwide. **It should be**, along with some sort of "pathway" light at periodic intervals as well.
I understand that next years ERA convention will be in Los Angeles. Can someone tell me any more details like when it will be and what is planned?
I have a few question about the operation of Vancouver Sky Train:
1. If I understand correctly, the trains operate without a member of staff in the train (ZeroPTO). Is this not true?
2. Do the trains run on regular rails?
3. If the trains have not operator, how do they close the doors without anyone getting stuck in them?
4. If there is no operator, then is that a crime problem?
In answer to your questions:
1. There is NO operator, conductor, etc. on the train. It operates automatically. There may be an occasional fare inspector board a train and ask for proof of payment of fares, but I've never seen one.
2. Yes, the trains do run on regular rails (standard track guage of 4'8-12" is used). Propulsion is accomplished by means of magnetic induction, the panels are visible between the running rails. The trains do make some unusual noises when accelerating/decelerating with this propulsion system.
3. The doors have a three-note chime that sounds about a second before the doors start to shut. If the doors shut on someone, they stop momentarily, then start shutting again. If someone holds the doors, the platform is under camera surveillance in a central control area, and I assume a warning goes off there and the controllers will make a PA announcement. The passengers up there do seem to be a lot more civilized than other places I've ridden rapid transit, and I've only heard such announcements once.
4. I can't comment on the crime situation. I really haven't heard of anything happening, but I'm sure it does.
[1. There is NO operator, conductor, etc. on the train. It operates
automatically. There may be an occasional fare inspector board a train
and ask for proof of payment of fares, but I've never seen one.]
Does that mean that a lot of people can get away with not paying their fares?
You COULD get away with it, but I am sure if you are caught, the fine/penalties might not be worth trying to ride free. I'm not sure of the fine/penalty if you get caught.
However, on the San Diego Trolley, the first offense beings a $50.00 fine. The second offense is supposedly a $250.00 fine. And the third offense, a whopping $500.00. I'd say someone would be pretty stupid to get past the first one, considering a ride of the maximum length is $3.00!!
Also, do you know what the fare recovery ratio is for the skytrain and only the skytrain (not the rest of the system). It must be pretty high with their kind of operation.
Toronto's Scarborough LRT operates similarly. Traction power is by means of linear induction. Unlike Vancouver, there is a conductor that occupies the "motorman's" position in the lead car, but all he does is operate the doors. Everything else is automatic.
--Mark
The control is by Alcatel's SELTRAC system, also used on the Docklannds Light Rail (no operator), MUNI Metro (with operator just in case) and soon on the JFK airport Airtrain-no operator-fully automatic.
Does anyone have pictures of the former Pennsy freight track that used to run up Columbus Av. in Jersey city?
> Does anyone have pictures of the former Pennsy freight track that
> used to run up Columbus Av. in Jersey City?
The Columbus track was the passenger line to Exchange Place. I too would be interested in pictures since I live right off Columbus..
-Dave
You all have been waiting for them, now there here! The R-142's have arrived to a port in New Jersey. They will be shipped from there to Kawasaki's plant in Yonkers for test and modifications. Then they will touch the rails of New York City Transit. Be patient and wait to see them in public events. Do Not go crazy and tresspass! If you are so R-142 hungry, just wait a couple weeks to see them FROM PUBLIC PROPERTY around 239th Street Yard. Remember again, just chill out.
Until next time....
This is old news. There were some report in Oak Point Yard in the Bronx two or three weeks ago.
Those were the Bombardier cars (R142) that were spotted at Oak Point. He's talking about the Kawasaki (R142A) cars. I thought those were all going to be built at Yonkers. How many of the Kawasaki cars arrived at Jersey?
Let's clear up some items here:
First of All, the first R142 sighting was a single Bombardier unit which was trucked into Fresh Pond Yard for testing to determine the best way the car could be delivered into the subway system. The same car travelled to Oak Point, which was probably for the reason of determining whether or not the unit (on a flat car) could run on the NEC with little difficulty. There's no other logical explanation.
Second of All, the cars that arrived in America as The Source pointed out are the R142As going to the Kawasaki Car plant in Yonkers for final assembly. Unless the cars have to travel by freight upstate and across the river to get to Yonkers (CSX by the River Line to Selkirk - go to Bear Mountain or Ridgefield Park to see the freights), I'd expect the cars to come over by truck from NJ. MARC commuter cars had rubber tires on them when they arrived at Yonkers. Please don't get into an accident if you see something peculiar on I 95 (or wherever they're travelling)!!!! They'll be at Yonkers and you'll be able to see the R142As from a passing Metro North train heading towards Croton. There's also a somewhat limited view from the Yonkers platform. You can see them on the street, just don't cross into private property, ok? I'd like to get snapshots, but I won't risk getting arrested just because I'm suffering from the R142 craze. Think before you act....
How do you tell the difference? Bombardier Cars have the red ends, Kawasaki Cars will have the black ends (if I recall correctly). Perhaps the designation "Redbird" should live on with the Bombardier R142 since it has red ends. What do you think?
I pose this question again: Has anyone seen the Bombardier Cars on the TA property? That solo car that was at Oak Point had to end up somewhere. I'm still waiting for the entire Bombardier train to arrive on the IRT mainline. It'll still be a while before the Kawasaki units show up in the system.
What about compatibility issues? Will the Kawasaki units be compatible with its Bombardier counterparts?
-Stef
These are the R-142A, correct?
If anyone sees these and notices a unit number, please pass it along.
If my previous sources are/were correct, they should start with 7211.
Wayne
One thing that has been cited as one of the givens of the IND from Point Go has been its length of platforms, most of which were 660’. But there have been some variations here and there. Virtually all local stations on the 8th Avenue line between 72nd Street and 163rd Street – Amsterdam Avenue have lengths of 600’ (the exceptions being 96th Street which was 615’ on both levels – that length being the standard for all stations from the late 1940’s onwards – as well as the 81st Street-Museum of Natural History station, the uptown platform being 630’ long, the downtown platform 615’); ditto for most local stations on the Queens Boulevard branch between Elmhurst Avenue and 67th Avenue. On the other end of the platform length spectrum is some of the Sixth Avenue (Avenue of the Americas) stations. The icing on the cake is 34th Street, the uptown platform originally being an eye-popping 745’ (745’!) long, the downtown platform originally 685’. Both platforms of the 23rd Street station are 670’, and 47th-50th Street – Rockefeller Center is 665’.
Also of interest to me, as I’ve been finding out, is the positioning of the lengths as they relate to the codes. The World Trade Center terminus (A1 & A2) lasts from 892+00 to 898+70, while the Chambers Street station (A3 & A4) runs from 898+25 to 904+85. I wonder why such info is not part of any section of this or other subway-related web sites?
> I wonder why such info is not part of any section of this or
> other subway-related web sites?
Lack of source material.
I think Joe Korman might have it on his pages at the joekorner.
-Dave
You're right about 34th St.-6th Ave.; I always felt that platform was a bit longer than your typical IND platform. Case in point: the first car of an uptown, full-length express train will stop right at the interlocking signal, and that signal is a healthy distance from the northern end of the station. I used to walk a good distance towards the end of that station out of habit, then always had to back track when my train would arrive.
Even with the variations in platform length, it still seems that every IND station is capable of accommodating a 10-car train of 60-foot cars. B trains have proven this to be correct along CPW, whether they have slant R-40s or slowpokes assigned to them.
I recall that in the 60s, many IND stations had stopping marks for 11 car trains.
-- Ed Sachs
I wonder when they were removed, as they must have been gone by 1967. As Arte Johnson would say, "Verrrrry interesting".
I would guess that the TA eliminated 11 car trains on the IND because all the new cars from the R27 on were in married pairs, which made running 11 car trains impossible.
To bad, because trains of this length would be useful on the E and F.
Of course, they could have continued to run 11-car trains of R-1/9s and R-10s on the 8th Ave. routes which remained on IND trackage.
I never saw an 11-car train on the IND. This practice must have been discontinued by 1967.
[Of course, they could have continued to run 11-car trains of R-1/9s and R-10s on the 8th Ave. routes which remained on IND trackage.
I never saw an 11-car train on the IND. This practice must have been discontinued by 1967.]
I recall reading that the 11 car trains used two conductors.
That's even more interesting. Would the train be zoned as two separate trains, in a sense? You would think that one conductor, perched on the step plates, would be able to see all the way down the platform on each side no matter how many cars the train had.
[That's even more interesting. Would the train be zoned as two separate trains, in a sense? You would think that one conductor, perched on the step plates, would be able to see all the way down the platform on each side no matter how many cars the train had.]
I'm not actually sure why they had two conductors--my working assumption is that it was a union requirement, because the platforms involved are almost all straight, but that's just a guess. Anyone know?
Actually certain parts of the IND could accomadate 11 car trains and trains of this length were run on both the E and the F from 1953 to 1957.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Since the 7 routinely runs 11 car trains, why doesn't the rest of the IRT altered to do so? 11 car Lexington Ave. trains would ease the overcrowding somewhat.
Answer: Horrendous, unbelievable, excruciating cost and massive construction disruption and annoyance.
Building the 2nd Ave subway would be a piece of cake compared to extending platforms at more than 100 stations. Plus, I betcha that platform extensions (unlike tile rehabs + new floors + better lighting) in local stations might kick ADA requirements into force, requiring elevators in all those stations.
I mean, the TA can't even get the northbound Bleecker Street IRT platform connected to the Lafayette St. IND, though the southbound has been connected for 40 years ... how realistic would it be to ask for EVERY IRT platform to be extended? C'mon now ....
In the 1960s and 70s, they did manage to extend all of the station platforms on the BMT Southern Division to accommodate 600 ft. trains (originally designed for 8 car trains of BMT standards, about 530 ft.). Actually, the lengthening started in the 50s if you include the Culver line.
-- Ed Sachs
And, for that matter, extend all the 5-car IRT local platforms on the original line to 10-car length. Although, IIRC, they only did one direction at first, which is why some of the locals (before rehab) had different tile patterns -- Forties pre-MTA white tile with mosaic trim on the uptown side (I think) and Fifties/Sixties MTA green vertical tile on the downtown side.
But that was back in the days when they were cleaning up after unification and were actually BUILDING new lines (the Dyre Ave branch of the 5 train, for instance). Those days are long gone.
>But that was back in the days when they were cleaning up after
>unification and were actually BUILDING new lines (the Dyre Ave
>branch of the 5 train, for instance).
The Dyre line wasn't "built after unification" if you want to be particular. It was an existing railroad incorporated into the subway with probably minor station renovation and track work.
-Dave
This is correct. The New York Westchester & Boston railroad was abandoned on Dec 31st, 1937 and purchased by the Board of Transportation a short time after. The money for this purchase & rehab came from diverting extension of the IND Bronx Concourse Line easterly beyond 205th St. Money had been appropriated for that project already. Dyre Ave shuttle service to East 180th St began May 15th, 1941. Using former IRT El cars, the line was operated by personnel of the IND Division.
--Mark
Wasn't the Dyre Ave. line supposed to be connected to one of the never built IND 2nd Ave. branches in the Bronx, and not to the IRT, as it is presently?
That was the proposal. Something about "the best laid plans of mice and men"...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That was the proposal. Something about "the best laid plans of mice and men"...
Now, its "the best laid plans of computer mice and men"
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
About the “Forties pre-MTA white tile with mosaic trim” — first of all, all such tiles were on the southbound platforms; the ’50’s-’60’s green tile (which was also pre-MTA which came into being in 1968; the proper classification is TA tile) were on the northbound platforms.
As for the pre-lettered tiles (white lettering on black background) on those ’40’s designs: The typeface variation thereof is exactly the same as was used on the following IND stations:
– Queens Boulevard line: Sutphin Boulevard, Parsons Boulevard and 169th Street (opened 1937)
– Sixth Avenue line: 14th Street, 23rd Street, 34th Street (before remodeling), 42nd Street and 47th-50th Streets - Rockefeller Center (opened Dec. 15, 1940)
Look very closely, you’ll see what I mean.
Thanks, W.B., my memory was (obviously) not too clear. Weren't the IND-style (southbound) extensions also referred to by the name of the previous body that governed the TA, before the MTA took it over? Again, my memory fails ....
The TA was an independent city agency before the MTA took over. Before the TA existed, it was the Board of Transportation (predecessor of NYCDOT) running the subways.
The TA was an independent city agency before the MTA took over. Before the TA existed, it was the Board of Transportation (predecessor of NYCDOT) running the subways.
And before Board of Transportation, it was Interborough Rapid Transit Co. and Brooklyn Manhattan Transit Co. Before Brooklyn Manhattan Transit Co., it was Brooklyn Rapid Transit Co. Before BRT and IRT, you had all these individual railroads. Before the individual railroads, horse cars. Before horse cars, horse-back or two-footin'. Ain't nothin' else before two-footin'.
"Ain't nothin' else before two-footin'."
Four footin' (Quadripedalism) for our distant ancestors, but not on this continent. Before that, swimming, before that, floating, and before that, no moving. Then before THAT there was nothing.
But on the 7th day, we rested ....
--Mark
But on the 7th day, we rested ....
And on the 8th day, it was back to woik!
I think we're missing something here in the bureaucracy geneology ....
Where does the entity "transit commission" fit in? I know either the "transmit commission" or the "Board of Transportation" have something to do with the IND being born, but my internet connection is slow right now and I can't check my own Capsule History of the IND document to see if I even documented this .....
--Mark
Not really. The entire IRT had it's platforms extended throughout the 50's and 60's, while service was running. I don't see why the existing platforms cannot be extended another 51'.
One acronym: ADA. Although I theoretically benefit from it my mobility problems aren't nearly as serious as many folks' - I can walk reasonably well most of the time and handle stairs as long as I do it carefully - and as a result I actually am negatively affected, because many organizations must either do nothing or do 100% because of the law, when doing the 20% they would willingly do would make a substantial difference to 95% of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I mean, the TA can't even get the northbound Bleecker Street IRT
platform connected to the Lafayette St. IND, though the southbound has been connected for 40 years ...
Would you believe that this, too, is part of the MTA 2000-2004 Capital program?
--Mark
Would you believe that this [extension of northbound Bleecker Street IRT platform to connect to Lafayette St. IND], too, is part of the MTA 2000-2004 Capital program?
Is it, really? I'd always assumed they'd do it when they rehabbed the IND station ... wrong. Can you confirm it's in the Capital Plan? (Which, am I correct, is still waiting for the MTA vs. Sheldon Silver fight over 2nd Ave. Subway vs. "Stubway"?)
can anyone list the capitol plans for 2000-2004?
I printed it from the MTA web site a few weeks ago but it is not there now. It seems to have been replaced with a list of contracts to be let out in the 2nd half of 1999. Let me see if my printout has a URL on it that I can still access ....
--Mark
It's about time. A 2-way connection here should ease overcrowding at Atlantic Ave.
If they are planning to close down the northeast side of the Manny B when the southwest side reopens in 2002, then that's one of the first things they should work on for the 2000-2004 capital budget, because it would allow a connection between Bleeker/B'way-Lafayette and Canal for people coming and going from Sixth Ave. through DeKalb.
A free transfer between BMT Prince St. and Bway-Lafayette would be nice too.
It seems to me that where transfer points don't exist between proximate stations, the MTA should add exit swipers that would allow a free surface transfer via Metrocard--and some simple directions on how to get to the other station.
They don't need exit swipers, they didn't use them on the transfer from Braodway (G) to Lorimer Street (M) during the Willy B closure. They put signs on the el columns directing people to the other station.
[They don't need exit swipers, they didn't use them on the transfer from Braodway (G) to Lorimer Street (M) during the Willy B closure. They put signs on the el columns directing people to the other station.]
You're right, the window for abuse would pretty much be limited to someone stopping off somewhere, getting something, and hopping on the other line, or giving their card to someone. Not particularly serious.
I'll believe it when I see it.
[Would you believe that this, too, is part of the MTA 2000-2004 Capital program?]
I'd heard that. Well, I'll believe it when I see it, because it's common knowledge that of the $5 billion in the new capital plan, $4.5 billion is for building that transfer point, and that $4 billion of that is for new maps and signs . . .
The reason the #7 line has 11-car-long platforms is probably because they were originally designed to be two separate platforms each - an IRT platform and a BMT platform, each 5 cars long and accessed from separate turnstiles, separated by a buffer zone about one car long. This system was never implemented, but that was the original plan, and today's long platforms are a by-product of it.
As others point out, extending all the IRT stations an extra car length would be a monumental job. In the late 50's/early 60's, the platforms were extended roughly half that amount, to get the first and last doors of the R-series cars to fit within the platform. But costs for this type of work have apparently gone up much more than the inflation rate for most things. It just wouldn't be worth it.
The IRT local stations all had to have their platform length's doubled in the 1950's. What's the big deal about doing another 51'? With the exception of a few spots (110 St. on the 2/3 and Fulton St on the 4/5), I don't see the big deal.
[The IRT local stations all had to have their platform length's doubled in the 1950's. What's the big deal about doing another 51'? With the exception of a few spots (110 St. on the 2/3 and Fulton St on the 4/5), I don't see the big deal.]
Agreed. But look at it this way--they can't even manage to upgrade the signal system, which would increase capacity for much less cost than lengthening the platforms.
[Since the 7 routinely runs 11 car trains, why doesn't the rest of the IRT altered to do so? 11 car Lexington Ave. trains would ease the overcrowding somewhat.]
They could be and should be. But it makes sense to replace the signal system and install automation first; the former would increase capacity dramatically, the latter would revolutionize it.
Also, it's not necessary to increase the length of every platform--the platforms at express stations could be lengthened instead, with one then the other half of the train stopping at a given platform (and some overlap in the middle for people going only one stop).
That's very interesting. I had no idea that 11-car trains were ever run on the IND. Was it due to a dramatic increase in ridership in Queens, perhaps?
In retrospect, I believe it. Even at 42nd St. on the 8th Ave. line, the first car of a 10-car A train would be a good 60 feet from the end of the platform. I never knew where to stand when waiting for an A train. Occasionally, an 8-car train would pull in, and I'd have to scramble down the platform to board it because the stopping mark was further away. I came this close to yelling, "Hey, wait for me!"
34th St.-6th Ave. is the ultimate, though. You could fit a 12-car train of 60-footers there.
The MTA is getting its new subway and bus schedules on line. They are not as good as the old ones. The only ones had every train and bus posted, and loaded pretty quickly.
The new ones are Adobe Acrobat scans of the printed schedules available on buses and in subway stations. There are two problems with this. First, Adobe may be the easiest way to post documents on line, which is why the posters pay for it, but its the hardest way to read documents -- it takes forever.
Second, rather than post every train, the printed schedules summarize hours of service with a comment like "then service every 8 to 12 minutes until..." That information is as bad as the service itself. I could see summarizing every five minutes or less, but for longer waits the customer might want to time his/her arrival to the arrival of the bus or train. That's a lot of numbers to print, but you'd think they could be more inclusive on the Internet.
It's a step backward.
Save the maps to your hard drive, then view them or print them. For some reason if you try to read them directly from the MTA site the response is slow. Printing them is another problem, many of them you have to shrink down to fit on 8.5 x 11 paper. The MTA site (still among the worst) is at least waking up a little. Maybe by 2002 it will have more interactive and feedback options. Even the official NYC website is slowly adding more info and features to it's pages.
Save the maps to your hard drive, then view them or print them. For some reason if you try to read them directly from the MTA site the response is slow. Printing them is another problem, many of them you have to shrink down to fit on 8.5 x 11 paper. The MTA site (still among the worst) is at least waking up a little. Maybe by 2002 it will have more interactive and feedback options. Even the official NYC website is slowly adding more info and features to it's pages.
The MTA subway map is composed of two gif files. You can just dwonload both gif files, put them in a folder and create a simple html file in the same folder, stacking the 2 graphics, and voila! You now have a subway map suitable for viewing in your browser.
(You can download gif files, stack them, and view them in your browser).
Perhaps, but aside from "saving" I've never done any of that, and am merely one of millions of computer semi-literates out there.
Just wanted to let the board know about Mark 1 videos set of 3 TARS tapes. If you are a fan of New York Transit, GET THSES TAPES!!!!! I am a big Third Ave. fan and these 3 tapes pretty much put me into sensory overload, everything from single truck work cars to Deck roof Hi-V's! I picked my set while up at Shoreline this past weekend.
Cheers
Steve L
Saw a "W" posted in the window of an "N" train. Was it some joker who painted a "W" over the "N", or is there a "W" on the route sign roller?
I've seen that before. It's a yellow M Train Broadway Express! Amazing! How the heck can you run a M Train on Broadway?
Magic.
Actually, there was a connection from the Manhattan Bridge to Nassau Street but according to my track map, it doesn't exist anymore. You could do it at the west end of the Montauge Street tunnel or at DeKalb Avenue, but there is no real connection anymore.
Of course you can run M trains on Broadway. During rush hour M trains stop on the same side as N train at DeKalb. Just have the M trains follow the N train tracks and then switch over to the Broadway Express tracks after Canal St.
How do you know it's an M Train Exp?
And not just a Sea Beach (or West End) - Broadway Express.
No - at least according to several previous posts here, there really is a "W" sign on the roller curtains used on the R-32s. It lloks like a yellow "M" but it isn't.
Some cars have W signs. I know for certain that the R32 and R38's have them. This route was reserved for a possible Astoria/Broadway rush hour only local service, probably as a supplement to the N train should it ever be returned to it's normal express route over the Manny B. You'd be suprised at the other routes on those roll signs: a "J" in a diamond for a possible Jamaica/Nassau/Brighton route. Also, the much talked about "V" is there as well.
Iwas also a bit shocked to see an R46 with a Brown diamond R on it's front route sign, indicating the now terminated Nassau St. special R route.
Wayne: The interesting thing about that is that for most of its life the Nassau St-Fourth Av route carried yellow RR or R signs. They finally changed it to a brown R just before they discontinued the service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Actually, they were (if they carried color at all, prior to 1979), GREEN - this would apply only to R42 equipment, if it ran to Chambers Street. The maps show the Green RR to Chambers Street. (1968 style and 1973 style).
Wayne
Wayne: Your right. I was thinking only of the post 1979 maps. Those certainly were colorful times.
Larry,RedbirdR33
R40's have Broadway Gold "W" signs, so do R68s and I believe R68A's.
As Chris R noted, the "W" means "Whitehall", the southern terminus for such service as Broadway Short Line, likely from Astoria.
Wayne
R-68A's all have them, on the 68's it's only on replacement signs (use thicker letters). Original R68 signs still have the diamond N, which the W replaced on the newer signs.
Why not? I've seen roll signs for a "V" train. It also said 6th Avenue Local.
Does anyone have any information on the subway plant in Yonkers? does the plant give tours to the public? I think its a Kawasaki plant,can i obtain information on the Kawasaki Plant, from a website? What is the address? I would like to see the subways built first hand.
Adrian: I don't have the exact address but the plant is only a very short distance north of the Metro-North Railroad Station. There is even a track connection. Just follow the railroad tracks from the station.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Speaking of the subway plant, just about every major manufacturer has a plant in New York State now (mostly upstate) to compete for MTA contracts politically. But the price of subway cars is up, up and away relative to the price of other things.
Clearly the MTA is accepting less for more in order to throw some money upstate. Would it be more reasonable to import cars, if we can get a better deal? Is that fair? How about having New Yorkers pay $60 for a pair of blue jeans and $30 for a tee shirt so that all those folks on welfare in NYC can get well paid union jobs in the garment industry again?
As the WTO meets amid controversy in Seattle, remember that protectionsim screws the consumers, who ARE most of the workers and nearly all of the lowest paid workers, while helping a few privileged workers. Those R142/143s had better work really well at $2 million a pop.
Part of the problem is the lack of a U.S.-based rail car manufacturer. It's easier for politicians to justify to the public the current situation with the R-142/R-143 because the cars are coming from manufacturers based in Canada and Japan. If the rail car companies were still based in St. Louis, Chicago and Philadelphia, parcling out the work around New York State and increasing the cost in the process would be tougher to get past.
Of course, it would have helped a bunch if the U.S. rail passenger industry hadn't cratered in the 1960s, leaving St. Louis Car, Pullman-Standard and Budd with no steady source of income. It's tough to keep a plant open if you're only going to get a big order every 15 to 25 years.
It is rumored that NYCT decision to purchase Orion buses was also politically motivated. My personal feeling is that the RTS is a much better constructed and proven bus design, while the Orion is not as good of a bus.
Like like the Orion buses and like more the new flyers. You can keep the RTS. Slow back door, knee won't reset from 9000 on up if bus is full and the turn off and on trick won,t work to reset the knee. Old people have a bad habit of falling off the front of the bus(stair to high). The driver vent system is design bad. Don't be fat and get a RTS. I can live with the orion tail. Love the low floor, got to drive it a few times at Gleason. People get in and out of the bus real fast, if only we can get them to read sign, have there fare ready, put the coin where the coins go in not where the metro card go and put the metro card in the right way. But thats asking for to much. This job is funny somtimes. Need to make a movie. THE BUS DRIVE, Hey wait here a good one! Bus Drive vs Motorman, Coming soon at a street corner near you, dec 16 1201am
Running Hot. Yea right! not on the M15, move your #$% to the rear of the bus
I HATE to defend these people. But truthfully, it's the high cost of the propulsion systems that drives these procurement prices.
The AC motors are incredibly expensive when compared to the old DC ones. Incidently, they aint cheap either.
Ever buy a mother board, or a processer? The entire AC propulsion system is computer controlled. The components are way expensive. I have seen relays go for $800 bucks too.
So when you add that up with some of the other new fangled crap that TA asks for like automated annoucements and digital display signs..............
(Cost of propulsion systems)
I can only hope reduced power and maintenence costs will make it worth it in the end. The cost of the cars is a real problem, though no one seems to think of it as such. I think the subway should try to break even on an "auto-equal basis" -- that is, taking out the cost of the ROW and signals, which are paid for by taxes on the roads, and the cost of and ad revenues from stations, which are an amenity for nearby properties.
On that basis, I think the TA does pretty well -- until you get to the cost of the cars (drivers pay for their own vehicles). If the cars are costing $2 million a pop, and lasting 30 years, then (with cost of capital figured), the fleet costs the TA nearly $1 billion per year! Even with today's high ridership, that's more than 50 cents per ride.
The TA either needs to get the cost down and/or the longevity way up on these cars. Hopefully they'll be like the R32s.
They better get the costs down or the reliability up if they plan to replace the 1,000 R-38 through R-42 cars in the next 5-10 years. At $2 million a pop, that's close to half the supposed cost of building the new Second Ave. north extension.
It's that duality of budget again! New cars come out of capital, which TA cares little for because it's almost like an endless stream of water from the federal and state governments. BUT! Operating budget they DO care about, because by law it must be balanced, and their jobs depend on it.
The point of expensive AC systems is that they have far fewer moving parts, and consequently need less replacement parts, and FEWER CAR INSPECTORS. The estimate is that a current five man inspection team could be reduced by two. That's a hell of an incentive to the bean counters at Livingston St. So they will spend a fourtune out of the capitol budget to save a few bucks from the operating. The warped logic make sense yet?
Erik, actually that *does* make sense if you look at
the lifetime cost of ownership of each motor car.
Of course, there's a nasty knee in the cost curve when
the replacement parts become obsolete, and that happens
a lot faster for semiconductors than electromechanical devices.
Does anyone have any reliability and failures info on the
R110 propulsion groups?
[It's that duality of budget again! New cars come out of capital, which TA cares little for because it's almost like an endless stream of water from the federal and state governments. BUT! Operating budget they DO care about, because by law it must be balanced, and their jobs depend on it.
The point of expensive AC systems is that they have far fewer moving parts, and consequently need less replacement parts, and FEWER CAR INSPECTORS. The estimate is that a current five man inspection team could be reduced by two. That's a hell of an incentive to the bean counters at Livingston St. So they will spend a fourtune out of the capitol budget to save a few bucks from the operating. The warped logic make sense yet?]
There are other strong arguments for AC systems. Among other things, they're much more suited to automation, provide a more comfortable ride, and in conjunction with automation can reduce other maintenance costs such as the cost of grinding wheels.
Oh, no argument there. I am one of the biggest proponents of AC traction. The Arrow III cars I worked on for NJT converted me. Faster, smoother, and easier to maintain.
On the evening of Wednesday, November 24th, the first ten pilot R-142A cars arrived by ship from Japan to Port Newark, New Jersey. The cars were unloaded by truck from the ship on Thursday, November 25th. Car Equipment engineers, planners, MTA excutives, ship crew and Port Authority of NY & NJ staff were on hand for the unvailing of R-142A car #7220. After the ceremonies, 3 cars were sent to Kawasaki's Plant in Yonkers, the other 7 were stored in Port Newark.
Check your local listing for Transit Transit next month, they will have coverage of the delivery of the R-142A cars.
How are the units coupled? 2 car sets, 3 car sets, or 5 cars set like the R62s and R62As?
As far as have come to believe, they will be coupled in 5-car sets.
This is the old Otis Elevator plant, just north-east of the n/b platform. I believe the first cars to be assembled there were the PA4's.
The recent batch of d/d's for LIRR, MARC & MBTA were put together there, along with some stuff in the recent past.
What I don't get: there is a rail connection. Why, then, at night, around 11:00 do they truck the d/d's along Mosholu Pkwy, under the Jerome Ave el to the Grand Concourse, then across Van Courtland Ave eastward to who knows where! I even saw this maneuver going in the REVERSE direction, again late at night, always accompanied by the obligatory safety trucks with flashing yellow lights. Quite impressive, to say the least. And I never have a camera, only my dog.
Joe C
I take Amtrak through NYC and I was wondering what those tracks are that fly-over the Main Line at F Interlocking (bewteen Sunnyside yard and the mouth of the East River tubes). I think I read that they are freight tracks and the one track that joins the main line looks out of service, but the other tracks that fly over are fully signaled. Are they used for some sort of passenger service?
Yes, those tracks are freight tracks.
West of Sunnyside Yard (basically, from under the IRT Flushing Line) to the west was what was LIRR "Yard A" -- the freight yard. Freight trains would leave there, head west, then over the bridge you were wondering about, and proceed over to the Montauk branch.
I don't think I ever saw a passenger train use that track, even on fan trips.
Thanks for the info. On my F interlocking diagram there are 3 tracks that flyover the Tunnel Lines. One of the three flys over the eastbound tracks and then down into F interlocking. The other 2 fly over all the tracks and then into something called "North Yard". North Yard isn't on the chart, but the little arrow points in the direction of Sunnyside. My next question is did LIRR freight trains use any part of Sunnyside and are the tracks still used for anything? I know the one that flys down into F isn't used, but the other 2 tracks had what appeared to be working signals on them.
BTW, maybe you (or others who have same) would like to get copies of your LIRR track maps to Dave to post on the website. I don't recall that there are LIRR maps posted...
Dave?
I just have a diagram of F interlocking and of Penn Station. I got it from a PRR site.
The tracks you are speaking of are the Montauk Cutoff
Secondary. The two tracks used to cross the draw bridge
are known as "cabin M". Only one remains in service. The
Western track ends before the bridge, due to a fire some
years ago, and is used as a switching lead for yard A. That's the freight yard. LIRR owns that, and Sunnyside is an AmTrak propery, shared also with New Jersey Transit Rail Operations. There are a few hand throws between the two from the old Pennsy days, but they haven't seen any recent (like decades?) use.
The Eastern track is not a main line track, and is one of
the few places on the LIRR where a signal is found on the
left side of the right of way for an on coming train. The
signal visible from F interlocking is not actually part of
F. It's the distant signal to the home signal that
protects the drawbridge at cabin M. Since cabin M burned,
the gear for it is also out of order. The bridge doesn't
open. The distant signal will always display Approach, unless a train has just passed,and the home signal always Stop Signal. Trains must stop and call the movement bureau for a clearance card to get permission past a stop signal before proceeding.
Cumbersome, yet cheaper than re building the interlocking
apparatus. There's a split derail there as well, but it's
locked in the closed position, as it was also part of the
interlocking. Strangely enough, the signals only protect
the bridge for Eastbound traffic. Trains going West face
no signals at all as they approach and cross the bridge.
Going the other way, there is a track that runs down into
Harold interlocking. It's a hand throw switch to get in.
That's the West Bound freight. It's the second of your
ramps. After entering the track, is the home signal to
Harold. Only Work trains actually use it. Occasionally a
LIRR work train will venture up to New Rochelle for track
supplies there. An AmTrak pilot boards at Harold for that.
The Montauk cutoff is used by NY&A Rwy. freights daily.
F interlocking is controlled remotely from Pennsylvania
Station Central Control. AmTrak's domain.
I hope that answers your questions.
Erik
Answers like this are why we all love SubTalk!
I had too. I have been something of a Johnny one note lately, and I needed to take break.
I know my favorite "professional" didn't have to look at the maps either, eh?
For those interested, I emailed a picture to Dave Pirmann showing most of the line. You can see the 2nd Av el structure in the forground, the swing bridge, and the station along the Deegan. The extra girder space on the el structure probably once contained storage space for Forneys at the terminal.
Have a good trip.
Bob d
I took a short trip into the area today. Here's what I saw, starting from the Jerome Ave/River Ave EL at 162nd St heading towards the Harlem River:
- The girders leading to 162nd St are still there. In fact, over 163rd St, the ties remain. At the end of the structure, you can see some more ties and about 20 feet of guardrail, where it ends abruptly by the IRT substation (44?), built 1917.
- The space where the el ran to Jerome Ave is occupied by a parking lot for a tennis club.
- Not much has changed since this picture (Jerome Ave & 162nd St - the Jerome/Andersen station) was taken. The ad for Israel Ruiz is, for the most part, painted over, save for the words "state senator" and part of his image from the glasses on up. To the right of this picture is a rock "wall", which looks like it is climbable on its right side. I couldn't climb it; workers were putting new concrete on the sidewalk exactly in this area, as well as a short way up this wall; I HOPE it isn't for extension of the fence. As best as I could see, this is the only way to access the platform. The folks living in the adjacent apartment buildings have a great view of this area though. To the left of the picture is a distingushing feature of the IRT also seen in plain sight along the Queens Blvd viaduct of the Flushing Line - green tile along the wall. It is partially painted over, but clearly visible. The doors at the bottom of the wall, I presume, were station entrances. This area is occupied by a sign & awning business, and a quick peek in yielded no evidence that a station was ever there.
- If you walk back far enough on 162nd St between Jerome & River Avenues, you can see part of the Manhattan bound tunnel. (If it were summer, you wouldn't be able to see a thing). What you can't tell is whether or not it is sealed. From what I saw, it didn't look sealed, but I could only see the top third of it.
- I drove by Jerome/Andersen Aves. No evidence of station entrances (different concrete on the ground, for example) at all.
- No evidence of station entrances on Sedgewick Ave itself. Just a solid rock/brick wall forming the foundation for an apartment house
- The Sedgwick Ave platform is clearly visible from a pedestrian overpass over the Major Deegan Expressway at 162nd St & Summit Ave. Cross the Major Deegan and you can see the edge of the plaform under the expressway, and another concrete structure of some kind - I couldn't make it out. On the other side of the overpass is a closed staircase that I assume at one time went over what is now Metro-North; it is fenced off. If you continue down the ramp of this overpass, towards the Macombs Dam Bridge, it leads to some brush, and you can easily walk through this brush and step onto these platforms. I didn't do this because I was short on time, it started to snow/rain, and I wasn't comfortable doing it alone anyway due to the evidence of homeless folks in that area.
- I drove into Manhattan over the 155th St bridge. There are staircases with the ironwork along the railing that can be seen from the Harlem River Drive, and evidence of another is 3/4 of the way up 155th St on the bridge. It's closed and there's little of it left.
- I drove towards the Harlem River Drive along "Harlem River Driveway" and pulled over just before the entrance to the highway. I thought I'd be able to see clearly across the river to where the platform was. I couldn't - the recently built Yankee Stadium exit (exit 6) partially obstructs the view. Perhaps walking along this area may have provided a better view; anyways, it was time to go.
Now my curiousity is really peaked and I hope to be on the Dec 19th field trip. Let's hope it doesn't rain.
--Mark
A couple of interesting points I recall. If you stand at the south end of the east ny tunnel, looking north, the leftmost tube has an interesting characteristic- atleast it did 20 years ago- the track is built to take 3rd rail. Every 5th tie was a 3rd rail tie. This track was from the original construction, it used "bridged" joints, not used since prior to WWI.
Also, before there was a Brooklyn College, the site was used by a circus, served by circus trains that ramped up to street level near Campus Road. I think the ramp is still there.
Bob thanks for the info!
Yeah, I had read that the Ringling Bros. Circus had their big top setup where the present campus of Brooklyn College is located.
I'll have to look into the business about the ramp.
As for the E. NY Tunnel on the Bay Ridge Line: the left-most tunnel entrance is devoid of trackwork. It looks like it is used for whatever vehicular traffic might be needed to be moved through there (backhoe, police patrol cars, various LIRR vehicles)
Doug aka BMTman
Another point of interest near the "junction". Along the south side of the cut btwn Nostrand and Flatbush was a short run loop for trolleys, that ran right along the edge of the cut- must have made an interesting site. Its now a driveway for a gas station and car wash- atleast as recently as 3 years ago. Also- the site of the Philip Howard apartment complex was a big lumberyard served by the LIRR. Also- in the 19th century, there was a connection with the short lived Brooklyn Central RR near Brooklyn Av.
Brooklyn Central RR??? Please elaborate!
Brooklyn Central was a line that set itself up in competition with the brand new Brighton Line in 1878, running from a point near the current Prospect Park station and running eastward in a big arc to connect to the Manhattan Beach Line.
For various reasons it couldn't make a go of it, and lasted just the one season. AFAIK there is no visible remnant of the line anywhere but it would be great if anything could be located.
Paul, I thought I read somewhere that Brooklyn Central RR predated the LIRR in Kings County and ran down Atlantic Ave. I think it started as a horse-drawn railcar line and later became trolleys.
I might have read this in one of Seyfried's books, not sure.
Doug aka BMTman
The one that ran in Atlantic was the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Jamaica. It was to be built as steam. However in 1834, only two years after the BF&J was founded, it had not yet been completed, the newly formed LIRR leased it as the line between Jamaica and the Brooklyn Waterfront. Now in the 1870s, Brooklyn banned steam, so the LIRR closed the tunnel between Flatbush Avenue and the waterfront and ran horsecars as shuttles to Jamaica. The LIRR then proceeded to build it's current mainline through Woodside to Hunter's Point, in what would eventually be incorporated as Long Island City, although the terminal was in a different place, the current one was originally the terminal if the Flushing and North Shore. When Brooklyn lifted it's ban on steam a few years later, through service resumed. However, with the line now coming far short of the ferries, it had already been too late, the Altantic Branch was forever sentenced to play second fiddle to lines to Long Island City. At the turn of the century, the LIRR proposed electrifying and grade separating the Atlantic Branch and building a tunnel to Lower Manhattan, returning the line to it's former glory. However, the PRR bought a majority share in the LIRR around this time, while the line was still placed below (or above) grade and electrified, the connection to Manhattan was instead built to the PRRs new Midtown Terminal from Sunnyside, and the Atlantic Branch continued to be the secondary terminal.
While I've had fun telling this story, you can find a lot more detail at the wonderful LIRR History Page run by SubTalk's own Bob Andersen.
Thanks for the info.
And thanks for mentioning Bob Anderson's very good LIRR site. He carries the flame for LIRR History on the web, since no other sites exists that solely deal with the interesting heritage of Long Island's commuter railroad.
Doug aka BMTman
Bob Anderson: How about posting a set of LIRR track maps on your site!!!
The only ones I have, from the 1950's, are 671 pages long!
Bob gave me a set of those highly descriptive maps by Bob Emery. I used them as a reference during the walking tour last month. Since all the maps were hand-drawn the scale is off somewhat and can be a bit confusing as Emery didn't indicate north/south on most of them. Obviously, if you are already familiar with the Bay Ridge Line then comprehending the maps becomes alot easier.
Doug aka BMTman
There are also evidence of structures that aren't on the map (they seem to be signal bases). This makes things a bit confusing and at the same time interesting, because it gives you something to do while you're walking through a pritty borning ROW. We had a nice day for an enjoyable walk.
Mr t__:^)
Any map of it appear anywhere?
Now that this string has got my memory juices flowing more vigorously, I think the name of the line was actually KINGS COUNTY CENTRAL. Brooklyn Central & Jamaica ran on Atlantic Av. after the LIRR abandoned Brooklyn operations in 1861. Brooklyn & Jamaica predated the LIRR in Brooklyn, incorporated in 1832 and starting operations in 1835.
Getting back to the Bayridge line, now that the foliage is gone, you can clearly see a what looks like a concrete signal foundation in someones backyard along E 16 St about 150' south of Av. I.
Bob, there are quite a few of those signal post foundations that I spotted on the Bay Ridge in the Rugby/East New York areas. As a matter of fact, many of them are the foundations for the cantanery wiring when electification came to the line.
Doug aka BMTman
Bob d corrected me on the name. It was "Kings County Central" (I don't believe it touched any part of the City of Brooklyn as it was in 1878) and ran as I described.
I hven't seen a track/street level map, but I've seen route maps as part of the Manhattan Beach. I think one is on the lirrhistory.com site.
Seyfried has a good description of the route in one of his books.
I think I read in one of Seyfried's books, that it ran on private r of w along side of Brooklyn Av, and up Hunterfly Rd to around Atlantic Av or Fulton St. I think it passed right by Holy Cross cemetary.
A good source of track location info is the Brooklyn Historical Society. They have land use map books spread through the later part of the 19th and early 20th centuries, they show the EXACT location of all RR tracks in relation to streets and private land. These books go under the names of "Belcher", "Hyde" or "Sanborn".
A scan of Seyfried's LIRR vol. 4, it would appear we have had the following route:
From a depot at Flatbush Avenue near Malbone Street (Empire Blvd.) not far from the Brighton Line's Prospect Park station, through private property along the north side of Malbone Street at grade to east of Rogers Avenue where the track swung northward toward Sullivan Street then cureved sharply southeast, passing under Nostrand Avenue in a tunnel, avoiding a dangerous grade crossing with Nostrand Avenue horsecars. Then a close approach to Clove Road, a disappeared road between Nostrand and East New York Aves.
After Clarkson and East New York Aves, the line ran south between E.34th and E.35th Streets and then through unsettled open country to its junction with the Bay Ridge branch--Manhattan Beach Line.
Thanks for the info, Paul. That's some of what I recall reading.
Incidentally, there is NO indication of the existance of Clove Rd. today at all. I don't care how much anyone tries, but this road left no legacy (no ROW evidence).
Doug aka BMTman
What about from Mongomery Street to Empire Boulevard? In the middle of this one block path, it intersects with Malbone Street, which proceeds east to East New York Avenue.
That passage from Seyfried's book reminds me that if you follow those directions precisely, there IS a one block piece of Clove Rd that runs through the backyards of some tenement buildings near Empire Blvd- atleast it was there about 15 years ago. At that time, it was being used as a parking/driveway. Wonder if that tunnel under Nostrand is there? It would be more like an underpass though, than a tunnel.
Bob, I am not certain (both from Seyfried's books and other sources) if I understand correctly where Clove Rd. originally ran through. Some say it ran north from somewhere around Eastern Parkway south diagonally between Nostrand and New York Aves, others say it ran parallel between Brooklyn and New York Aves. Which was the correct location? Or are both right if Clove Rd. turned at various points?
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, Seyfried describes it as a diagonal street.
Looking at the 1898(?) Geodetic Survey Map (which I think is on this site), street names aren't given. but I can plot the likely streets.
Following the line of Malbone Street east from Flatbush Avenue, the first through north-south street would likely be Rogers Avenue, followed by Nostrand.
The very next street east meets Seyfried's description of Clove Rd., starting a block north of Malbone and running diagonally approx. SSE and ending at East New York Ave.
Malbone itself ends just east of (probable) Clove Rd. where it meets some uneven highlands.
Fascinating stuff, at least if you like historic traces.
The way we found it last time, was by using a really large airial photo map that used to hang in the Flatbush Tenants Council when it was on Newkirk Av. If you get a chance to go to the Brooklyn Historical Society, you can easily look it up in one of their old Atlases.
I'll check what I have here too.
Bob
According to my 1908 Atlas, at Empire Blvd (Malbone St) it ran diagonally btwn Nostrand and New York Avs. It carried the name at that time of "Canarsie Rd". At its southern end, it ran diagonally into E 34 St at Clarkson Av.
Thanks Bob.
That makes sense since the existing Canarsie Rd. runs diagonally till it ends at Skidmore Ave. and St. Jude Place (former Rockaway Ave.).
I'll look up the old maps once the Brooklyn Historical Society reopens.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the Kings County Central holds the record for the shortest lived RR on Long Island (including Brooklyn and Queens). It only operated from May to September in 1878. Second place probably goes to the LIRR' "White Line" (the Newtown and Flushing RR) which ran from Winfield to Flushing on a more southerly ROW than the current Port Washington line. This line lasted from 1873 to around 1877.
On the other end of the spectrum, the Hudson River line just celebrated 150 years, and the portion of the Port Jervis line between Suffern and Harriman has seen service for 151 years*...Any other lines in the area that have seen continuous service that long (along the same ROWs)??
*albeit not with standard gauge track to start...
How about the LIRR Greenport Line???
How a about the Park Avenue Tunnel?
The line from Brooklyn to Greenport was completed in July, 1844. However, it was opened up in stages as it went, the first section btwn Atlantic Av & Columbia St to Jamaica being opened in 1835, although this section too may have had parts open even earlier.
Service from Brooklyn to Jamaica along Atlantic Ave. began in 1835 - 164 years ago.
Service from Brooklyn to Jamaica along Atlantic Ave. began in 1835 - 164 years ago
And one of those 1835 trains came creaking into Jamaica station just last week. The railroad reported it as arriving "on or close."
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
bob d, I believe the KC Central RR actually had a station (stop) at Holy Cross Cemetary. I also seem to recall reading (in Seyfried book #4) that the RR had a main maintenance yard/terminal at a location now occupied by Downstate Medical Center on Clarkson Ave. between Brooklyn and New York Aves.
Doug aka BMTman
bob d, you are quite right about the area now occupied by the Philip Howard Apartments. I have an old topographical map of the Brooklyn College "Junction" area and it has a Chas. J. Hunter Coal Co. also on the property (this is approx. 1920ish). It looks like that spot was a major frieght terminal back in the old days.
Also, across from that location was the Montgomery Royal Tennis Courts and Ice Skating Rink. That establishment covered the blocks bounded by Flatbush Ave. and Ave. I, and including E. 32nd Street and Aurelia Court.
Doug aka BMTman
Interesting. The 200 - 2004 MTA Capital plan has plans for a third track at Flatbush/Nostrand, and future consideration for extending (all three?) tracks to the Bay Ridge open cut for a turnaround area. This would increase capacity and reduce congestion during rush hours at Flatbush/Nostrand, which was never supposed to be a terminal stop.
It sure would be interesting to stand at the Nostrand Ave overpass of the Bay Ridge line and see 2/5 trains turning around outside of the tunnel!
--Mark
I would assume MTA is expecting Flatbush Branch ridership to increase, hence the need for three track operation?
Perhaps the clearing of trash from a former trackbed that Thurston and I saw on our walking tour was the beginning of the work in question.
Doug aka BMTman
Even if patronage of the IRT Nostrand Ave line doesn't increase, the work is planned; it is based off current ridership & congestion. It's been a long-time problem.
As for the clearing of the brush, I doubt it's related to this program. Aren't there freight trains running on the Bay Ridge Line again, albeit very infrequently?
-Mark
That's NY&A Rwy. President Fred Krebs. He's having work release prisoners clean up the ROW for the two trains a week that ply the secondary beyond ENY. There are no customers beyond there. Just the interchange with Cross Harbor RR at Bay Ridge.
FYI, in LIRR parlance, only the main line is reffered to as a line. All the rest are branches. Since the Bay Ridge is no longer main track,(not since passenger days) it's considered secondary track, along with the associated rules governing. These are less stringent for crews, and according to the FRA, the RR has relaxed requirements in it's maintainence as well.
Transit Pro, you're not kidding about relaxed maintenance on the Bay Ridge. When we did our walk, most road ties were in EXTREMELY poor condition. And most spikes were only a couple of inches from popping out of their tie plates.
Incidentally, any chance that NY&A might need additional help on clearing the ROW? I might be able to lend a hand.
And I'm aware that there are no other clients west of Albany Ave. on the Line. That's why I find the eastern sections more interesting from a railfan point of view (including the former intersection at ENY Tunnel portal).
Doug aka BMTman
You wanna voulenteer? Knock Knock. Any one home? I get paid for my services outside a museum.
Well, I WOULD like to get paid, but if you say they are using work-release prisoners, then they are not going to be paying outside help anyway.
My actual plan wouldn't involve the work on the roadbed. I'd be basically going along for the ride with camera in hand to record the whole affair.
Do you think NY&A would agree to that?
Doug aka BMTman
Mail me. I'll tell you who to get in touch with.
If this is ever built, then the Flatbush Ave. station will need an underpass built. Several THOUSAND riders a day take the #5 out to Flatbush to assure themselves of a seat on the trip to Manhattan, and the only way to get from one side of the station to the other is the walkway at the very southern end, which would have to be removed (along with the entire Ave. H exit) to accomodate the new tracks.
Or they can use their unlimited cards to go up to the steet and reenter the other side. Or they can stop trying to beat the system. Don't depend on the system to pay money just so people can continue trying to beat it.
Trying to beat the system? How is riding a 5 train out to Flatbush Ave. to assure themselves a seat into Manhattan beating the system? Once you pay your fare, you can go anywhere you want, and ride as long as you desire.
Really, that's like saying taking the Whitestone because the Throggs Neck has a traffic tie up is beating the system.
IIRC, the overpass or underpass you refer to is part of the 2000- 2004 capital program. You are correct that if these tracks are extended, that the current crossover at the southern end of the platform would be severed.
--Mark
Is this supposed to be a loop like at South Ferry, Brooklyn Bridge and Continental Avenue ??
Continental Avenue is not a loop!
No - this won't be a loop - simply turnaround tracks that extend, I'd presume, 2 or 3 train lengths, to allow another train to terminate at Flatbush Ave and provide an area where the train operator can change ends, bring the train back into the station, and initiate a crew change.
--Mark
They also should create as much of a storage area as possible, as the Nostrand Ave line's capacity is limited to the trains coming into it from Manhattan. I've seen the platform fill up at 7:15 AM, waiting for a 5 train to arrive from the Bronx, a train that probably didn't leave it's northern terminal much after 6AM, when those trains run on 10 minute headways.
And the congestion of the Livonia Ave. line, with all those extra 2, 5, and 3 trains heading towards the yard is, well, pretty bad.
That area could use a storage yard.
You are right about the congestion of the Livonia line, as I previously stated a few weeks ago...........
3TM
61St. The next station will be 68St. Stand Clear please......
A "new" double-ended PCC was completed in 1998. It was assembled from the bodies and equipment of two other retired PCCs. Although only one unit has been constructed so far, others may be built, depending on the success if this car. It could possibly also be the longest PCC ever built - there are seven passenger windows between the front and rear doors and eight after the rear door. Would anyone care to venture as to where this car was made and future plans for it? The answer will surprise you. This is not a "PCC joke."
Is it a tandy car in texas??
No, but a good guess. Keep trying! I'll give the answer later on. I have a series of photos, but they're copyrighted and can't be put on the Internet. I'm looking for other ones now that could be posted.
I'll guess San Francisco, to increase the diversity of their Market Street surface operation.
Close georgraphically, but sorry, San Francisco is not the city. They do have three double-end PCCs in regular service, with serious consideration being given to refurbishing and adding two more. I'm sort of surprised no one has ome up with the answer, as the car was completed in July 1998 and it was publicized in traction fan channels.
Ummm....
Seattle? On the shorefront route?
Now you're getting further away! This clue - it's not an operating system yet but at this moment an entirely non-trolley city.
Kenosha, Wisconsin? I know they're going to use PCC cars on their new streetcar loop from the Metra (UP-North) terminal through downtown Kenosha to the lakefront.
This is quite true - they will be, and ironically, as one PCC city terminates service next year (Newark), another adds it (Kenosha). And, in the near future, Dallas will probably begin to add PCCs. But, no, I'm sorry to say, Kenosha isn't the answer. Clue: as you are a lawyer, you may have been involved in a situation in which possibly your client or clients may have had the opportunity to participate in a similar type project. But, geographically, the answers keep getting further and further away.....
Oakland?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not even a PCC fan. They look more like buses (GMC) than trolleys. However I'm tired of the suspense!
THE ANSWER PLEASE!!!!
I believe it might be more appropriate to state that the GMC buses were modelled after the PCCs. Look at the dates when the first PCCs appeared, especially those with standee windows. Then determine when similar designs were incorporated in GMC Old Look buses......
O.K. I give up already!!!!
Lake Tahoe
The new double-ended PCC was built for and is currently stored at South Lake Tahoe (Nevada). It was made from ex-San Francisco PCCs 1024 and 1035 at the Carson City Correctional Facility. It is hoped to use the car on a demonstration line that may be built in that city. It's a sharp looking trolley.
No, sorry, not Oakland either. It's really diificult for me to believe no one in this group appears to have heard or seen anything on this project.....
I never got the original question, but coul it be the Embaracadero Extension of the SF Muni F live to Fisherman s Wharf?
Seattle Uses Melbourne Australia Trams
Did Gomaco have something to do with this?
Gomaco? Good suggestion, but no. However, it would certainly seem logical for them.
Wasn't there a company in Philadelphia that was thinking of building PCCs? These weren't going to be made from existing cars, but were supposed to be new cars partially based on the original designs.
whjy just because you have a full cab of people cut across and try to beat out
the los angeles blue line north south
light rail train ??
and then to cross tracks ( two days ago) and get hit broad center!!
the sad ending all 6 were killed
the rail had to be repaired for three days but he innocent people who died a terrible death!!
please do not cross the tracks of any on coming train ! salaamallah@yahoo,com
Umm, not a yellow cab. (And yes, I know you were trying to make a funny or ironic comment -- Blue Line train and yellow cab.)
This isn't just nitpicking; it's highly relevant. According to the LA Times today, the taxi was not licensed in the city where the collision (I refuse to call a maneuver so idiotic an "accident") occurred and where he picked up his final fare (Compton). He picked up a group of four passengers who had phoned a different, licensed, cab company, having probably intercepted the dispatch on a scanner. To add insult to injury, the cabbie was driving on a suspended license, and leased the cab in his girlfriend's name -- she is believed to be the sixth victim, though that person has not been formally identified.
The asinine thing is that there were protests at the accident scene on Monday by a group calling itself Ministers Against Metrorail Accidents. Anyone want to lay odds that these "ministers" are the sort that preach in run-down commercial buildings (former movie palaces, laundromats, and branch banks) with a hand-painted and not-completely-literate sign over the door? If they had an ounce of sense, these mental giants would reorganize as Ministers Against Morons who Cut Off Streetcars and Take Innocent Passengers to their Deaths. But it's easier to blame "the Man" than to teach car-dependent Angelenos not to cut off several-ton vehicles that can't steer out of the way.
please do not cut in front of ANY
TRAIN especially in front of
ANY DOWN RAILROADCROSSING WITH THE BELLS AND
LIGHTS FLASHING AND THE
GATES DOWN!! (please)!!!
thank you it may save your life !!
please do not cut in front of ANY
TRAIN especially in front of
ANY DOWN RAILROADCROSSING WITH THE BELLS AND
LIGHTS FLASHING AND THE
GATES DOWN!! (please)!!!
thank you it may save your life !!
OK. Can I have your permission to cut in front of the train if there are no bells and the gates are up?