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Hi,
I know I am probably wierd but I am infactuated with subways and mass transit as a whole. Unfortunately I live in Florida and there isn't much out there related to subways for me to find. Does anybody know of any place where I can find various subway items to purchase, or additional information on the web or by catalog? Feel free to E-mail me if you have any info.I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks
Steve
Subway417@aol.com
Steve,
Try ebay (www.ebay.com) Do a search using keywords: subway, transit, elevated (do each one separately). You will usually find a bunch of
items up for auction.
The items are not limited to NYC subway but those are the majority of items you will find for acution.
In addition to eBay (which I wanted to mention, but Allan beat me to it!) you can go to the subway bibliography on this site and purchase the books and videos, etc. via Amazon.com directly.
I've got one more week of vacation coming up, so I want to try to take some day trips that are best done on a weekday schedule. What I hope to do, weather permitting:
-Get the first morning train (8:11) from Jamaica to Montauk. According to the LIRR Montauk branch timetable, the first returning train (11:43) will NOT be interrupted by a trackwork bus. I certainly hope so. Does anyone know if the LIRR slips in unannounced bus diversions?
-Try to do the Danbury and Waterbury branches in one shot. This would require leaving Grand Central at 8:11 (although I might save time by driving to Larchmont), and an hour and a half layover in South Norwalk. I've tried to do Waterbury three times, and each time was thwarted by a surprise bus as noted above. None of these instances was preceded by bad weather.
-Drive to Warminster, PA, do that branch and as much as of the suburban light rail out of the 69th Street that I can. The SEPTA schedules indicate that a midday bus diversion between Glenside and Warminster ends today. I hope they're on time.
-Try to ride an R-62A on the '5' from end to end, particularly the Bronx end. From what fellow Subtalkers have told me it is rather possible to achieve this in the rush hour. If I hop an early bus over the Whitestone and make my way over to Dyre terminal by 6:30, I should be okay.
-Plan to be at Seashore on Saturday the 9th unless it rains, then Sunday. Looking forward to seeing some of you there. I don't know what I'll be wearing, but maybe one of those mall T-shirt stands can stencil the NYC SUBWAY.ORG logo onto a plain white shirt.
-If I'm not totally exhausted, I'll try to make it to A.C. for some (hopefully) monetary gain. The casinos aren't that crowded if you get there before 11:30 when the buses arrive.
Since I only have a computer at work, I'll be offline from 4:30 this afternoon through Tuesday the 12th unless I can somehow get sign-on time at the library. Hopefully I'll be too busy on the rails to suffer withdrawal. Take care!
I think you mean Shoreline (at Branford),not Seashore in Maine. Branford is the one with the Autumn in NY.
My error- I DID mean Shoreline (at Branford). Funny how two trolley museums can have such similar names.
Have a good time at Shoreline, Howard. Both of our museums I'm sure will welcome any SubTalkers that can visit.
We had a good thread on these names many months ago. The best idea we had was that since many trolley lines were built to take people to the beach (during off-peak times) to fill otherwise unused capacity, many had "shore" in their names.
Or similar names:
See Sea Beach
Run Sea Beach!
Alfred Ely Beach!
Howard (and everyone)...
Glad you will try to get to Seashore on Saturday October 9. That's Members' Day, and I'm sure there will be many special cars run, though I don't think we'll have as much NY stuff out as our colleagues at Branford. I'll be there, so if any SubTalkers are up to a drive to Kennebunkport, I'll make sure you get to see our Gibbs Car #3352, the A-train, SIRT #366, etc.
Whichever of the many museums you visit... enjoy... join... support!
Todd,
Sorry about my last posting correcting Howard about the museum names. I didn't know Seashore had a special day that weekend. I guess he meant Seashore after all. Maybe I'll try to talk my wife into going to Maine.
"If I'm not totally exhausted, I'll try to make it to A.C. for some (hopefully) monetary gain. The casinos aren't that crowded if you get there before 11:30 when the buses arrive."
You might want to consider Foxwoods. You could take the LIRR to Geenport, various hotels there have deals that give you a bed, plus a bus to ferry at Orient Point & bus from New London to casino. The Silver Sands is one of those hotels.
Mr t__:^)
I recommend Belmont Park instead. You couldn't pick a more beautiful place to gamble at. (Outside of Saratoga of course) The horses are more of a challenge to handicap-you use your brain instead of guessing, and you can railfan at the same time. With binoculars you can see the LIRR main line from the grandstand.
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
I've done the Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun loop by car, and even though the ambience is much nicer than Atlantic City, it's rather boring. At least in A.C. if you're doing badly at one casino, you can stroll down the Boardwalk to another. At least that seems to work with quarter slots, the only thing I play.
I agree with Howard. 2 Years ago I went to Foxwoods, and was bored plus the food was overpriced, long lines at the slots. This year I went to AC and it was like Vegas. I took the Academy Bus from Port Authority, when we got to the Casino, they gave me vouchers. Low to my suprise when I got to the casino cage, they asked me Cash or Change, and gave me back $20.00. I lost it and went to another Casino. Plus if you want to return early. Academy has busses it seems every 30 mins back to the City.
I too think Atlantic City has much more variety: casinos, boardwalk, etc., BUT you have to drive. The LIRR to Greenport is very nice & the ferry ride is also quite a treat.
P.S. when I go to casinos I always work in a show so I feel I got something for my money.
Mr t__:^)
Amtrack has a connection to Foxwoods, and if you were adventerous you could go to AC by train via Amtrak/NJT in Philly or NJT/SEPTA/NJT, thru tickets are available at Penn Station for either one
Got off the 2-3 at Penn Station last night. The queue at the token
booth was roughly 10 deep. A clerk clad in an MVM shirt told the
people that they could use the MVMs adjacent to the booth. You guessed it, no one moved!!!
Haven't you figured by now that people are afraid of those things?
Afraid? I've used them and they are very easy to use. After all alot of LIRR riders now use the ticket machines, what's the difference?
I see alot of other people using them too, people will adjust to them just like the LIRR ticket machines.
[Got off the 2-3 at Penn Station last night. The queue at the token
booth was roughly 10 deep. A clerk clad in an MVM shirt told the
people that they could use the MVMs adjacent to the booth. You guessed it, no one moved!!!]
Not necessarily a bad decision. Token booth lines almost always move quickly. MVM lines, from what I can tell, don't.
I don't know about that. I use one of the MVMs at GCT once a month (for my $120 X-bus + card) There are more machines then there are clecks, and they made the process so dumb, a child could do it.
The only feature I miss is the ability to pay part in cash, and part on a debit or credit card.
One issue causeing some confusion is the way banks are now promoting their new ATM cards with Visa/Mastercard logos as 'debit cards' that can be used as a credit card.
-Hank
debit cards : a choice: use as "Credit" (only you know) or ATM.
The lack of people at the machines: they are technophobes and that is why we will not go away!
I d rather use it as acredit card, that way they take 2-3 days to take the money out of the account. What Pissed me off was in when i was in GCT last June, needed to but a weekly comm pass to White Plains. Since Metro North Took Credit Cards by mail. I figured the waould take them at the ticket counter. After waiting 20 minutes on line, the clerk said no, I had to get out of line, find a ATM machine pay their fee plus my banks fee, and wait again 20 minutes for my ticket, and barely made my train, which was a hourly schedule. Sorry it was for Valhalla.
do their machines take credit cards?
I do not remember, The machines at GCT were only for single journey tkts, I was buying a weekly pass and had to be validated a certain way with the valid dates on them
Yes, they do.
I love the mvm. I will never go to a token booth again. It only takes 30 sec including credit card authorization
Got one almost as good,even though its not about the mvm...Last Sun I was at the 42nd St booth right outside the entrance to the PABT..the line mustve been 30 deep......so I just walked back inside to the Hudson News stand right inside the door,the lady literally bored to death, and bought my FunPass there...BTW,are the MVMs there operating yet?? How long do they have to 'test'??
I'm from Brazil, but I visit NY every year since 96. So I know and admire your metro sistem. But I have a little doubt: We ara building a metro here in my city, and people got rely angry because of the mess caused by the building process ( the traffic gets terrible, the stores don't sell as much as they could, etc.) How did you avoid those problems in NY?
Thanks a lot, anyway:
Santhiago Costa Manso.
It has been a very long time since we had to endure the building of the subway here in NY. Most of it was completed in the 1940's with a few extensions in the 1960's thru 1990's.
How do we avoid these problems? We don't. In typical NY style - we complain alot and live with the inconvenience (also known as Grin and Bear it!.
Or in the case of the often proposed 2nd Avenue Subway - we listen and the Transit agency promises and nothing gets done.
During the time the subway was built(1900's through 40's) constant building and construction was commonplace, so people didn't mind it as much as they do now.
I'm sure it's easier now than it was 50 years ago(no one's using dynamite:))
You have made one assumption that is incorrect about NY City during the time of the building of the Subways. Metropolitan development, for the most part, followed the building of the subways and not vice versa. As the subways were built, neighborhoods grew around the new lines. Therefore, there was not the huge disruption you are assuming took place. Another thing to consider!! During the era of the building of the major portion of the subways in NYC, New Yorkers were very supportive of the subways. Even during the 63rd St routes and the Archer Avenue lines, there were never any major outcries due to detours and inconvenience.
The best answer would be someone from LA who lives or works along the Red Line. I know driving down Wilshire or Up Vermont Ave was a pain in the butt. They are still building so they probably know best
I'm from Los Angeles. I live one block from the Red Line and work two blocks from it, and use it every day. The disruption caused by subway construction is only temporary, and the benefits in time saved, convenience, and travel comfort far outweigh the price paid during the construction period. If only the money spent on highway construction had gone to subways, light rail, and commuter rail instead.
You live in the Central City, but what about all those people in the Valley or W .LA areas. It does not help us, I should say them, because I don t live in LA anymore
I just wanted to know if anyone has any suggestions pertaining to possible routes from Queens Blvd via 63 Street Tunnel. Are they going to divert the F train from 51 Street tunnel to the 63 Street tunnel, the R, or add another service.
Please tell me what you think.
This topic has been discussed ad extreme nauseum on this forum.
Let's leave it at this, please:
The Q may or may not go back to Broadway, the G will never see Queens Blvd again and there may be a V train.
OK guys, time for all of us to let up a little. Remember BX55 last week? We all got caught up in that and I made the mistake of interjecting my opinion in relation to what one of my colleague wrote and the result was turmoil. I love reading about the subway, and baseball and how they were connected. But this stuff about Rudy. It makes me react with anti-Hillary diatribes. Is is possible we can ease up on the politics---as least until next summer when it starts to heat up again. There have been some mean things said, and I've said a few of them. Maybe we should lighten up and keep on the subjects we love. The museum controversy only inflames all of us. How about that? Sea Beach Fred Peritore as peacemaker. Out here most of my friends think I'm an agitator. Maybe I'm getting wisdom as I approach 59.
Yea Fred #4 Sea Beach Man SoundsGood. I think I will change to 1 Brighton Exp Man, what do you think. RSVP Bob
I changed my title from Sea Beach Man to Sea Beach Fred, but the #4 sounds good. I will add that to my title, and your #1 Brighton Beach is great. I hereby give you that title as official. Good show. Too bad we don't agree about politics. Then we'd really be pals.
At least both of your favorite subway routes ran Triplexes.
And now that the Mets have actually made it to post season play, I take back what I said earlier (what can you say about a team which plays in Flushing - that sort of thing). Naturally, I'm very happy for them. Now let's see just how far they can go. Maybe there will be a Subway Series after all.
Steve B 8AVEXP: The odds are against it but the odds of the Mets winning anything in 1969 and 1973 were much greater and we know what happened. In baseball much is possible and when the Mets play the way they played yesterday, well, very good things can happen. I'm optimistic they will be giving a good account of themselves against Arizona.
I would just like to say, The Chicago Transit Authoirty isn't as bad as people on this board say it is.
The problem is that just in the last 5 years they finally got a staff that has some brains and are not Jack-Asses.
If you look at the Orange Line which opened in 1993, it has to be one of the quitest and nicest Rapid Transit lines in the world. The trains make about as mush noise as Metra Trains do. And Metra is pretty quite.
You have to realize that these people are dealing with a 100 plus year old system and have to renovate it with a limited amount of money and time.
The 2600 series cars which failed last winter were already schedueled for renovation, that just made it more necessay. Right now they are being renovated and the project won't be 100% complete until 2003. The new cars are really nice and have a noticeable difference. Some people say they have ridden in the newly renovated cars and they suck, but there is a difference, now all 2600 series cars that even just go in for minor work to the Skokie Shops get the paint removed.
They are doing everything they can to renovate the system, but are having some difficulties. Overnight service that wasn't used HAD to be cut in order to balance the budget and show that the CTA would be able to pay back money borrowed.
Just today they found out that the Feds have given 7 million for the Douglas Branch and Ravenswood projects. Aprroxiamently 1% of what they asked for. It isn't easy to get Billions of dollars, but it takes a staff like they now have under Frank Kruesi(spelling??).
As far as ridership is concerned, it is higher then ever. How can you deny ridership figueres when it is calculated eletronically by turnstiles and bus fare card machines. It can't be exact due to day long passes, but it can be estimated pretty close. Now it proabaly is a little higher due to fare beaters, but the number of them has gone down by allot.
The bottom line is, the CTA has take a complete turn for the better. Granite it still has to go through another complete turn to be the best it can be, but it has come a damn long way in the last 5 years or so. The stafff has got ridership to go up instead of down which hadn't happened for around 15 years.
BJ
The problem is that just in the last 5 years they finally got a staff that has some brains and are not Jack-Asses.
Brains or not, they're still political hacks whose first priority is doing Mayor Daley's bidding, not providing decent transit service. And Hizzoner Daley has himself made comments that public transit is becoming obsolete. Easy to say when everybody you know rides to work in the back of a limo.
Granted, the CTA has made significant strides within the past five years or so. The new farecard system (almost identical to NYC's MetroCard system) is a huge plus, along with some of the minor service improvements. However, they still have a long way to go before Chicago has the mass transit system it deserves.
If you look at the Orange Line which opened in 1993, it has to be one of the quitest and nicest Rapid Transit lines in the world. The trains make about as mush noise as Metra Trains do. And Metra is pretty quite.
The Orange Line is a step in the right direction. Having the new 3200-Series trains running on brand-new ballasted track makes a huge difference in the noise and comfort of the line. Having said that, I'm still a bit disappointed in the new stations along the Orange Line... They look more like detention facilities than transit stations. Architecturally, the city had a great opportunity to do something noteworthy, but squandered it in typical fashion. The fact that Chicago has such a rich architectural hertitage only makes it that much more galling.
You have to realize that these people are dealing with a 100 plus year old system and have to renovate it with a limited amount of money and time.
Yes, and so does NYC. And I agree that the CTA is grossly underfunded... One of the effects of having a state legislature dominated by suburban interests. However, the CTA seems content to spend their money on superficial cosmetic changes while they continue to wail and moan about not being able to afford basic infrastructure improvements. Example: God knows how much money they spent on the automated station-announcement system on the Green Line, while the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line continues to crumble -- quite literally. How badly do we really need a computerized voice to tell us that a train is arriving at the station?
The 2600 series cars which failed last winter were already schedueled for renovation, that just made it more necessay. Right now they are being renovated and the project won't be 100% complete until 2003. The new cars are really nice and have a noticeable difference. Some people say they have ridden in the newly renovated cars and they suck, but there is a difference, now all 2600 series cars that even just go in for minor work to the Skokie Shops get the paint removed.
The 2600's are about 15-20 years old, and their electrical problems have been known about since day one. (The 2600's also seem to have an annoying problem with electrical fires.) As it stands, the 2600's form the bulk of the CTA fleet. However, no action was taken until the system finally imploded on that first rush hour after the blizzard. (And keep in mind that the blizzard was on a Saturday. The CTA had two full days to prepare for Monday's rush hour, but continued as if all was well.)
They are doing everything they can to renovate the system, but are having some difficulties. Overnight service that wasn't used HAD to be cut in order to balance the budget and show that the CTA would be able to pay back money borrowed.
And that's just the problem: The whole CTA mentality is about numbers on a spreadsheet and political perception. How their decisions actually impact the people who use the system is a non-issue.
Just today they found out that the Feds have given 7 million for the Douglas Branch and Ravenswood projects. Aprroxiamently 1% of what they asked for. It isn't easy to get Billions of dollars, but it takes a staff like they now have under Frank Kruesi.
Kruesi, while not as bad as some of his predecessors, is still a political hack who can't take a piss without asking permission from Daley. And Daley himself has made repeated comments about how he feels public transortation is obsolete. The CTA will continue to decline as long as Daley is on the 5th floor at City Hall and Springfield is dominated by Pate Philip and his band of suburbanites who take every opportunity to express their contempt for the city. And they're the ones who go to Washington and grovel for money to rebuild the system.
The bottom line is, the CTA has take a complete turn for the better. Granite it still has to go through another complete turn to be the best it can be, but it has come a damn long way in the last 5 years or so. The stafff has got ridership to go up instead of down which hadn't happened for around 15 years.
Ridership has increased mainly because of external factors such as increased residential development within the city, although the new unlimited-ride passes were also a big factor. And the system is barely able to accomidate it's exisiting ridership, to say nothing about future increases in ridership. In order for public transit in Chicago to be the best it can be, I'm afraid it must be completely rebuilt from the ground up. One idea that may be worth considering is to abolish the CTA altogether, and put Metra in charge of the L and Pace in charge of the busses. It amazes me how Metra and Pace are able to offer such excellent service while the CTA always seems to be the bastard stepchild of the three RTA divisions.
As far as physical infrastructure and rolling stock go, the CTA would do well to take its cues from newer systems such as the Washington Metro and MARTA in Atlanta. My friends here in Chicago think I'm feeding them a load of b.s. when I tell them the MARTA trains have carpeting and actually drive themselves. I was particularly impressed with how clean and quiet the Atlanta system is, not to mention ATC on all their trains. Chicago should also take a close look at how New York has managed to turn its system around. As I understand it, the NYC subway was in a position about 20 years ago much like the position the CTA finds itself in now, but seems to have managed to turn itself around 180 degrees. I had heard all the stereotypes about New York subways before my first visit to NYC, but was impressed to find much of the system actually in better condition than Chicago's. Bravo New York, shame on Chicago!
For a weekly e-zine chronicling the trails and tribulations of the CTA, check out the Weekly Breakdown at:
http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/
Sorry for the long post,
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
David: Don't be sorry about your long post. It's an excellent rebuttal to what seems like a press release from the Merchandise Mart. For every two steps the CTA takes forward, it also takes three back. I'll believe the CTA has improved when "A" and "B" express service is restored, and owl service is restored to all rapid transit lines. I don't believe that "no one" uses owl service; it's used by people that don't have easy transportation alternatives. Public transit is a utility that should be offered 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, just like water and electricity. The CTA has long been in decline, and I am glad for any improvement. I won't even mention the surface system - it hasn't been the same since the disappearance of PCC cars and trolley buses.
Rome wasn't built in a day and the CTA plugs along. The rehabbed cars are quite nice and work much better. They were scheduled to e rehabbed prior to the blizzard and were due for the work.
The RTA and the folks down state have not been as supportive of the CTA as they should be, but when they moved to the burbs they took their money with them.
A/B service made a ride in from Howard acceptable. It is a loooong ride now on the red line.
The carpet on the DC trains is spotted and the Orange is just too 70's
Unfortunatly it is too easy to deffer capital maint. until it's almost to late to fix what has been left behind.
CTA is a good system but it could be better with.
OPTO is a good idea, but not for all routes at all times. I still say the Red line should have conductors over its entire route at least during the day.
The beginning of the end of streetcars in Chicago began when CTA was formed in 1947. They could have been kept on some of the major through routes (Clark/Wentworth, Broadway/State, Western, Madison).
Where streetcars have worked is where there is room for right of way away from cars like Shaker Heights in Cleveland and the St. Charles line in New Orleans, or in short sections of dense central cities where traffic is slow anyway.
If the Chicago streets were wide enough for dedicated lanes it could work.
See I told you guys! I'm not the only one who can see the demonic influence in mass transit management!
Satan my butt! The problem, much as in NY is the money and who controls it. As long as the overpaid extreme suburbanites can purchase the government, transit service for the dense urban cores will get short shrifft. If you wish to attribute the results of human greed and prejudice to satanic influence so be it. I prefer to think it is stupidity and evil behaviour of fellow humans who exercise free will and are chumps.
Not one word from any of you guys on the eliminaion of conductors.
While my earliest independent subway experiences were as an eleven year old cruising the CTA lines while summering with grandpa, I have now lived 27 years with the BART with single person crews on ten car trains of 75' cars. Although I could name half a dozen stations on the old North South thru route which have curved platforms(BART's are straight) I am not adamant about multibody crews. Further I would remind you that the Evanston line was the pioneer with the "one-man" cars #'s 1-50 with fareboxes. They came in the late fifties! If the ATU was willing then, what is so much worse forty years later?
Excellent point about elimination of the conductors...
OPTO is feasible in such places as the Evanston line, which is located at the fringes of the rapid transit system and doesn't see the heavy ridership that the more central parts of Chicago do. Also, the trains used on the Evantson route are only six cars long at the most, due to the shorter platforms.
OPTO also works better on the lines that use the newer 3200-Series trains, such as the Midway and Ravenswood routes. The 3200's were specifically designed for OPTO, while the rest of the fleet was designed for two-man operation and was later sort of jury-rigged for OPTO. Things have improved since the older trains have been refitted with full-width cabs, but there is still a noticable delay at any of the island-type platforms where the doors open on the left-hand side of the train (this includes the vast majority of stops on the Red and Blue Lines -- the two busiest lines in the system).
When the conductors were first eliminated, here's what CTA communters where forced to endure at each stop:
1. Train pulls into station and comes to a stop.
2. Operator removes the key from his console.
3. Operator opens the door of his cab and exits.
4. Operator moves to the opposite side of the train and inserts key into door control console.
5. Operator opens his window.
6. Operator finally opens the train doors.
Depending on how lethargic the operator was, this process usually took a full 5-15 seconds. Often, frustrated passengers would pull the emergency release handle for the doors and exit on thier own.
7. Close doors and reverse process. Add another 5-15 seconds.
8. Repeat process at every single stop (no more A/B express service, remember). This adds up to a significant delay which has improved slightly with the full-width cabs, but still remains a factor.
Interesting how the CTA said this change in procedure would not cause delays nor pose a safety hazard, yet they still see a need to have conductors on the downtown portions of the Red Line and Blue Line subways.
Seen scrawled on a wall at the Fullerton Red Line stop: "CTA = Chasing Them Away." How fitting.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Thank you David! Well said, I noticed your e-mail address has you perhaps affiliated with the 9th ward. Who is your alderman? I am just wondering why or if he or she did not introduced an ordinance to make one-man operation illeagal. Maybe fearful of his majesty little richie.
9th Ward?
Nope, it's The Nth Ward, the name I made up for my personal website. "Nth" refers to infinity (The nth degree, etc.). I just thought it was rather clever.
I actually live in the 43rd Ward, the domain of Vi Daley. No relation to da boss, but she is one of his loyalists, as are most of the other aldermen save for one or two independent voices.
In reality, City Council basically serves as a 50-member rubber stamp committee for Little Big Man.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
The 2600 series cars were scheduled to go in for maintanence before the Snow Storm, it just made it seem like they all the suddenly wanted them renovated from the news reports.
I would also presonally not like to see Metra take over. Have you taken a ride on the Electric Line? Many of the Stations are falling down a dirty. The CTA takes care of it's old stations, Metra doesn't. Even if the station is 100 years old, the CTA keeps it from faling down like Metra. Have you ever ridden The BNSF, Metra's most busiest line? The Stations at Clde, Cicero, Austin, Halsted, and Western Avenue are crap. Granite they are in bad neighborhoods, but they could still remove the graffitti and clean up the stations once in a while. Instead Metra is planning service extentions when the current system needs to be invested in.
I may be old fashioned, but wouldn't you rather have a person announce the stations and have money spent in other places then putting carpeting in the trains? I thought Bart and the LA Red Line were neat, but would rather see a system like the CTA. Not to mention the smell of urine in MARTA Stations and trains, even downtown!
As far as politics go, that really doesn't bother me much. THE CTA is substancially underfunded, but is looking at balancing their budget this or next year.
I will always like the city of Chicago and the CTA. The only real problem I see is that Purple Line express service should be offered at all times it runs, not just during the rush hours. A & B Service is crap, Express service should be run with an over lapping station half way between the route. Ex: Two Express A and Express B trains run between Howard and the Loop. One makes all stops between dowtown and Wilson and then runs express to Howard. The Other runs Express to Wilson and then all stops to Howard.
One final question, what has the NCYSubway done that makes it so great?? If I remeber correctly it is even more crowded then the CTA and rarely gets above 35mph, 25 in some cases. CTA goes 55 between most stations.
BJ
The 2600 series cars were scheduled to go in for maintanence before the Snow Storm, it just made it seem like they all the suddenly wanted them renovated from the news reports.
A major part of the refit is installing sheilds on the undersides of the trains to prevent snow from entering the motors and shorting out the equipment. I suppose it's possible the CTA had the foresight to consider this before the blizzard, but somehow I doubt it.
I would also presonally not like to see Metra take over. Have you taken a ride on the Electric Line? Many of the Stations are falling down a dirty.
The reason for this is simple: The Metra stations within the city limits of Chicago are city property and are maintained by the city, not by Metra. In other words, they're being maintained by the same people who "maintain" the CTA stations.
Metra owns the rolling stock and operates some parts of the system (other parts are operated by private contract carriers such as Union Pacific or Burlington Northern), while each of the stations are owned and maintained by whatever municipality they are located within.
The CTA takes care of it's old stations, Metra doesn't. Even if the station is 100 years old, the CTA keeps it from faling down like Metra. Have you ever ridden The BNSF, Metra's most busiest line? The Stations at Clde, Cicero, Austin, Halsted, and Western Avenue are crap.
Ever been to any station north of Addison on the Red Line, or any station on the Brown Line, the Purple Line or the Douglas branch of the Blue Line? I rest my case.
I may be old fashioned, but wouldn't you rather have a person announce the stations and have money spent in other places then putting carpeting in the trains? I thought Bart and the LA Red Line were neat, but would rather see a system like the CTA. Not to mention the smell of urine in MARTA Stations and trains, even downtown!
I'd like to see a system that is capable of getting me from Point A to Point B in a reasonable amount of time, cost and convenience, while allowing me to retain some shred of personal dignity. Can't comment on LA Metro or BART, but I've used MARTA a number of times and found the Lenox, Arts Center, North Avenue, Peachtree Center, Five Points, Omni-GWCC, and Airport stations each to be spotless compared to even the cleanest stations on the CTA.
As far as politics go, that really doesn't bother me much. THE CTA is substancially underfunded, but is looking at balancing their budget this or next year.
First rule of being a Chicagoan: EVERYTHING in this town is political. And the reason the CTA is looking to have a balanced budget this or next year is because they are required by state law to do so. This is nothing new; to my knowledge they have *always* been prohibited from running a deficit. Hence, all the cuts in service.
I will always like the city of Chicago and the CTA. The only real problem I see is that Purple Line express service should be offered at all times it runs, not just during the rush hours. A & B Service is crap, Express service should be run with an over lapping station half way between the route. Ex: Two Express A and Express B trains run between Howard and the Loop. One makes all stops between dowtown and Wilson and then runs express to Howard. The Other runs Express to Wilson and then all stops to Howard.
I love Chicago too -- I came to this city six years ago and have adopted it as my hometown. Hence, why I feel so passionately about how it deserves a much better transit system. Read my next posting for my ideas on how to improve the system, as they are too numerous to be included here.
One final question, what has the NCYSubway done that makes it so great?? If I remeber correctly it is even more crowded then the CTA and rarely gets above 35mph, 25 in some cases. CTA goes 55 between most stations.
A few things come to mind:
1. No matter where I am in Manhattan, I'm never more than a short walk away from a subway stop.
2. Trains are longer and wider, especially on the IND / BMT routes.
3. Trains are much more quiet.
4. Most, if not all, routes run 24 hours.
5. Stations, while still a bit raw and gritty, are generally well-kept and maintained. In addition, New York is aggressively renovating most of the Manhattan stations.
6. Station signage is consistent and makes a very complex system relatively easy to navigate.
7. Service is very frequent and much more reliable.
New York and Chicago are both major cities, and their rapid transit systems each get crowded during rush hours. That's just a fact of life in the big city. However, I was always able to find a seat on the NYC subway during off-peak periods. Can't say that about the CTA.
I didn't have a clear view of the speedmometer, but I'd say the express trains in NYC run much faster than 35 MPH. Some of the other people here could probably give more info on that. The only times a CTA train goes anywhere near 55 are: 1) Possibly on the Evanston express route, 2) the longer segments between stops where the trains run in an expressway median strip, on the outer reaches of the system, 3) The train is running express and skipping stops to make up for a delay caused by a mechanical failure -- not an uncommon event, actually, or 4) the motorman is drunk and the train is plunging off the el tracks.
Stay tuned for what I would do to improve the system...
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
CTA trains run pretty fast in the subway portions - and the noise level is positively deafening. I would hope the 2600s receive some sort of insulation during their rehab. That's the one thing I was really disappointed about with them during my last visit to the Windy City in 1996.
I don't mind the high speed; in fact, I love it. It's the noise level which is disturbing.
I have ridden the CTA N. of Addison St. Granite some of the stations are old, but some are new and beautiful. Take Loyola, Granville, Davis St, Linden, Western Avenue, etc. Acually Belmont, Fullerton, Wellington, Diversy, Armitage, and Sedgwick are in bad shape. Addison is the first good station that is Elevated.
The CTA keeps it's old stations up to standard in my opinion. The signeage should be changed to reflect the new color coding, but that is in the process of being replaced.
I would say the Douglas branch is the only line that is horrible and crap. I avoid it because of the low speeds, but I might have to take my last ride in the future.
The CTA has also annoounced the renovation of 25 rail stations set to begin in 60-90 days. Read the articles on their web site.
Besides Manhattan, I would say the CTA is in way better shape then the NYC Subway. What station is decorated like Davis St. outside of Manhattan???
Trains do reach above 55 in almost all cases. Douglas branch because of need to rebuild, but otherwise just short slow streches. You can't honestly think that NYC doesn't have more slow zones then the CTA.
BJ
On Thursday, 9/30/1999, I rode the Newark Subway. The "Proof of Payment" system goes into effect October 4. On 9/30 extra staff was at several stations helping riders use the machines. Most boarded with valid tickets or passes. On my car, a staff member politely, cheerfully explained to each cash passenger (mostly teenagers) that a ticket would be required Monday. One of the instructors told me that the new "one-trip" $1 ticket would allow unlimited riding and re-riding for two hours. Then I walked from the loop along the streets crossing the West Orange Branch. Men and machines are working furiously. Most of the old track is out. New grading, new ballast, new track is going in. A local told me that the rush is to get freight service restored, as they have already passed the restoration deadline.
Joe. When I was in Newark on Monday, I didn't ask anybody anything. I assumed that before you board a car, you validated your ticket. Is it that the card will be valid for 2 hours after that, and that they don't care if you ride back and forth for two hours? Did they flat out and say that it was good for two hours worth of riding? Being a cheapskate, if that's so, I'll be in Newark more frequently to ride the PCC's. Paul
Yes. At Franklin Avenue loop I asked an instructor, a man in a suit who was helping people use the ticket machines. He said the tickets would be valid for 2 hour unlimited off-and-on riding. I quickly looked over the wordy regulations posted nearby and could see no reference to 2 hours. The ticket does not clearly state your point of origin (as the Long Beach, California, system does). I think the posted notices warn of a fine up to $100 for riding without a valid ticket, so I would like to find the 2-hour rule and the back-and-forth, on-and-off interpretation in print on a NJT brochure! If allowed, I will enjoy it!
I'm not sure if it is laid up at concourse but the subway car 2674 has a messed up door. It one of the 4 from the leading end.
That car is part of the Concourse Fleet. Can you be more specific about the defect. I'm not sure what you are referring to. Thanks
The door doesn't open. If you look at it from the sky and the top is the number 1 end, one of the four closest door have the problem. Again, looking at it the same way the lower left doesn't open.
I'm still not clear as to the problem but I just called Concourse and told them to get the car off the road and check the doors. Thanks again.
A door by the transverse cab doesn't open.
Oculus has awoken-- it is in plain view, the plywood is gone and it is very colorful. The connection to Park Place has an IND look-- Wayne has already been e-mailed to get some pictures!
Park Place is supposed to open today but at 8:30am still closed. Update tomorrow along with a full description of Oculus and Park Place (if open)!
Ok, what the heck is Oculus??
Obviously you did not read Peggy's Line by Line for the 8th Avenue ! It is a mosaic artwork.
Alll over the Chambers/ WTC complex are mosaic "eyes" staring at you-over 300 of them! they are based on real eyes. The big eye is located on the floor. If you will exit the WTC by the E train and walk down the passageway towards the IRT and A train, go up the ramp and when the plywood ends you will see Oculus. For a full description see www.nycsubway.org/lines
Pictures will be forthcoming. I do expect that the area which is railed off will become a hmeless hotel- I hope the cops chase them away. Also if you'll note the IRT mezzanine it has Faux IND look tile with a yelloow and blue pattern-more forthcoming. I will sned Dave a complete update
Ahhh, thank you. I was wondering what all those strange eyes were. Now, could you explain why there are coffe cups on the Lexington Ave. express platform at 59 Street? And what are those funky metal things at Brighton Beach?
I'll have to recheck Brighton beach. As far as 59th St/ Lex-- the theme is "Blooming" the coffee cups, actually they are TEA CUPS (Dave- please change!) and along with the slippers preview the big mosaic in the underpass. See www.nycsubway.org/lines. Click on Lexington Avenue or BMT Broadway Subway
While we're on the subject of unusual decorations, why the Alice in Wonderland motif at 50th Street on the 1/9? I can't think of anything in the station's neighborhood that would make Alice particularly appropriate. Or was it just a matter of wanting to put it _somewhere_?
OCULUS is a giant eyeball mosaic which they put on a platform at the head end of the passageway alongside the "E" platform (near Park Place exits). It has been hidden behind a blue plywood wall. There are 332 other eyes staring out from the walls all over the Chambers Street-WTC and Chambers Street-H&M stations (and their associated entranceways and mezzanines).
I will get over there as soon as humanly possible to take pictures of it.
Wayne
I flagged there on Wed. It would be a long shot if it opens on schedule. There was still a lot of cleaning left to be done.
Believe it or not, Park Place **is** open. I saw the artists working on Oculus last Night-- it is very colorful- nice bright colors. I did compliment the artists who were giving the big eye their big eye.
Recently, I have noticed new SEPTA passenger info signs at some, but not all trolley and el stations. Among the changes noted:
A new four panel sign that lists all stations, A/B skip stop info; A Station Directory, listing transfer routes; A How-to get there sign "To Get To, Airport, Take, MF to 30th Street,..."; and the rules of riding SEPTA.
An updated map; with the entire SEPTA rail system (well at least most of it... the trolleys get its usual 'continues on street')... minor updates include: Frankford Transportation Center instead of Bridge-Pratt; and the University City R1/R3 station is no longer listed as 'proposed'. It also listes the PATCO line in full, with the disclaimer (NOT a SEPTA service!)
Some of the hanging exit signs have been updated as well -- now it is a red box with white letters.
Some of the trolley sign entrances have a picture of a trolley now. These have not been fully 'rolled out' yet.
On the full rail map, it makes specific mention of the Regional Rail System that the endpoint is marked by number and color -- thought SEPTA was dropping color codes?
I have seen the new maps at 30th and 2nd Streets, adn the new trolley entrance signs at some 19th street entrances. They look nice, and are somewhat easier to understand.
Yes, I've noted them as well. The map at 30th Street registers the ADA stations and the two new stations for the R2.
I noticed them around the middle of August.
As I mentioned before, they still had maps from as far back as 1982.
BTW, Steve Brookens, The "toothless wonder" we all know and love from 1998's infamous SEPTA strike(next one:2001) got elected for another 3 years as head of TWU 234. Oh joy.
When I began working near City Hall in 1967, I usually took the Brighton Local home to Cortelyou Road station.
Often, though, I'd top off my day by taking a "scenic route." It took longer, but gave me some mid-week railfanning opportunities.
I set out to make my routes circuitous, but never backtrack, so that I could claim I was taking an alternate route, not merely a sidetrip.
A favorite of mine was to take the Barclay St. Ferry to Hoboken, the PATH to Hudson Terminal, and the BMT at Cortlandt St. This almost brought me back to my starting point, but not quite.
The longest "scenic route" I ever took was halfway out of necessity. This was before 1967 when I had to travel between downtown and my then-home on Marlborough Rd. During a subway strike, when there was no certain way of getting between Brooklyn and Manhattan, I took the PATH to Newark and a bus to Newark Airport. At Newark Airport there was a a connecting airport bus which ran from Newark to Kennedy with a stop at (of all good luck) the BMT station at Caton and St. Paul's Court. This left me as close to home as if the trains were running.
Who else takes/has taken such scenic routes? What were your favorites? Or the longest?
Since I work in Bensonhurst and live in Woodhaven I often come home a different way each day. I usually ride a different Southern division BMT line every day. And the first workday the Franklin Shuttle is open., I'll have yet another way to get home.
I remember one way I went home from manhatten, but it was by bus. From Port Authority, I think it was the Blvd Transit, ran down 7th Ave, Through the Holland Tunnel, down Hudson Blvd thru Jersey City and Bayonne, across the Bayonne Bridge. Changed to the RT R-1 on Richmond Terrace, to St George, then the old Electric Ferry to Bay Ridge, and then the B 9 Bus to Ocean Ave, and then walked the 3 blocks home. Also at the time if visiting family in the Bx, took the Q44 to Jamaica from the Zoo, Then Jamaica, El, A Train, Franklin Shuttle, Brighton to Kings Hwy. Much more exciting then the 2-5 trains then the Brighton. At least for the return trip. We always went by subway to their homes
>>>Who else takes/has taken such scenic routes? What were your favorites? Or the longest? <<<
When I worked in Chelsea and lived in Bay Ridge, I would sometimes take the #1 to South Ferry, then the ferry, the SIRT to Grasmere, the then-S53 to Bay Ridge, and walk home. This was pre Metrocard so it would involve three fares and a quarter for the ferry.
I sometimes take a ride from Flushing to Tottenville.
(out:) LIRR to Penn, #1 to South Ferry, ferry, bus to Tottenville; (back) SIRT to St. George (free if you get out in Tompkinsville and walk 5 blocks!), ferry, #1 to Penn, LIRR to Flushing.
Every MTA operation except Metro North is covered in this trip, I believe.
My detours have never been as drastic as those, not by train at least. However I do that to a degree. For instance if I'm going to Coney from Atlantic/Flatbush (I ride the LIRR) I take the Brighton One way and either the Sea Beach or West End back. To Yankee Stadium I take the "D" one way, the IRT the other. I many times take the LIRR Montauk Branch from LIC. I do take trips on trains to railfan without using it as an excuse to get somewhere.
By the way, as I like to ride motorcycles I definitely take ridicuously long roundabout sightseeing detours. I live in East Meadow but have come home from work in Brooklyn by bike by going over the R. Moses Bridge to Captree and Ocean Pkway back to the Meadowbrook. I once went by bike from Lake George to Rutland, Vt (about 30mi due East of L. George) by going through Quebec, Canada to go from NY to Vt!!!! I even got on my bike to go to the corner deli & ended up in Providence R.I.
I also take the Montauk branch to LIC about once a month, just for a change of scenery - even though I work right above Penn Station.
[I also take the Montauk branch to LIC about once a month, just for a change of scenery - even though I work right above Penn Station.]
Same here. There's just something about the train to LIC that evokes railroading at its most elemental. Maybe it's seeing the city's gritty underside and then walking through the LIC yard. Penn Station is, how to put this, a more _sanitized_ experience.
BTW - I took the LIC line yesterday, and saw what looked like a crime scene investigation in the Fresh Pond NY&A yard. There were a total of about ten uniformed cops, and seven or eight men in plainclothes, in three groups each about 100 feet apart. One of the men had some sort of wheeled distance-measuring device. Dunno what had happened, but I'd assume it was a fairly serious incident given the manpower involved.
The history of the LIC branch is one of the most interesting (at least I think so) of all the rail lines in the NYC area- the part from LIC to Haberman was built by the Flushing RR in 1854 (which then turned north to Flushing); from Jamaica to Fresh Pond in 1868 by the South Side RR of LI (which then turned south to Bushwick terminal); and the final piece from Haberman to Fresh Pond around 1876 by the LIRR. Before the tunnels were built under the East River in 1910, and for several years after that, LIC was the LIRR's most important station. Besides trains to eastern LI, one could also go to Manhattan Beach, Brighton Beach, the Rockaways and Bay Ridge from LIC.
According to National Geographic, Conde Naste and a couple other international Magazine. Metro North/Amtrack Hudson Valley is one of the 3 top scenic routes in the USA. Especially on the Train to Montreal. I think it is the Adrondick. There was even a A&E show on it this [past summer, Great Trainrides of the World. My brother lives in Yorktown Hts, and when I visit him and have to go into the city, I enjoy taking the first car to GCT for the view. But 3/4 times you can t see out of the windows they are so dirty
The Northway (I-87) from Albany to Montreal is also very scenic if you're driving. I've ridden on it by motorcycle many times.
Try the train, from what I hear it is beautiful, especially about this time of year. One of these days I will do it. My next train ride will be BART IN SF this Wednesday if all goes well, then to Michigan for my nephews wedding. Maybe if I have time I will do Red Line in LA and Metro Link on the way back in LA. There is a train in Hawaii, on Maui, Narrow Gage Steam thru the sugar and pineapple fields. In fact in Maui there used to be a real railroad until WW II.The Hawaii paper had some articles about it a few weeks ago, kids on Maui used to take it to school
Northway was even more scenic when it wasn't as overgrown as it is now. Too bad they couldn't finish it in time for Expo 67. I remember that experience all too well.
I remember taking a long way to Saturday school once on Feb. 10, 1968. My mother and I took our usual bus to Port Authority, and the usual A train to 14th St. We walked down to the Canarsie platform, and there was no train. Five minutes went by, then ten, then fifteen, and still no train. No announcements, no nothing. I looked down the westbound track numerous times and saw what looked like a train at 6th Ave., but wasn't sure. At first, we contemplated getting over to the 6th Ave. station, but if there was no train at 8th Ave., it wouldn't do any good. Then I got the idea of taking an A train to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, changing to the GG, and taking it to Metropolitan Ave. And so we did. My strongest memory of that GG ride was wondering, if there were any stations with center island platforms. I thought Classon Ave. was intriguing with its provision for a middle track, and my previously raised question was answered when we got to Bedford-Nostrand. There were "All trains this side" signs which pointed to the outer track. Naturally, I thought, what was that third track for? Now I know. I was perhaps a half hour late for class, and got a round of applause from my classmates as I came in through the door. Then I had to tell the teacher there was a problem on the subway. She was pretty good about it.
We weren't sure if the problem on the Canarsie line had been corrected, and weren't going to take any chances. So it was back to Port Authority on the GG (not in the first car this time), then the A.
Bob, when was the regular route to the tunnel built? (The one thru Kew, Forest Hills, Woodside, and H.P.)
That also goes to the LIC station.
That was the original LIRR main after the Atlantic tunnel closed and the Brooklyn terminal became useless (it was forced to use horsecars because of a steam ban by the City of Brooklyn).
>>> Besides trains to eastern
LI, one could also go to Manhattan Beach, Brighton Beach, the Rockaways and Bay Ridge from
LIC. <<<
Other than Manhattan & Brighton Beach, you can still go to all those placs on the LIRR, if they would reopen the tracks. And, don't forget the scenic neighborhood of Bushwick, to which the LIRR also goes.
When in the last 60 years could you ride a passenger train on the Bay Ridge Division except on a rare excursion?
What about Bushwick? That's not what he meant. The tracks are still there.
In my younger days when I still lived with my parents in the Sheepshead Bay area of Brooklyn, I freqently, when I had the time, instead of going directly via the Brighton Line (to wherever I was going), I would go by way of Coney Island and one of the other lines.
-- Ed Sachs
One of my favorite scenic routes here in Chicago is taking the Metra Haeritage Corridor route down to Joliet, and the Rock Island District train back into the city.
The HC is much more rural and scenic than most of the other suburban commuter lines, and goes alongside a large number of mainline freight railroads... Great for railfans.
The wait for the Rock Island train at Joliet is only about half an hour, and in my experience there have usually been 2-3 large freight trains that pass through the station during that period.
On the subway, during my most recent trip to NYC I took the C from 72nd to West 4th, the F all the way out to Coney Island, The D to Broadway / LaFayette, the 6 to Grand Central, the 7 to Times Square, and then the 2 back up to 72nd. All this was pretty late at night, and I found it to be an incredibly fascinating look at the city... I especially enjoyed looking out the window on the Culver Line, watching the abandoned express tracks rise up to meet the locals, and then sink back down again to parts unknown, as well as the sheer rawness of that Smith / 9th Street station late in the evening. Almost had sort of a melancholy "Blade Runner" feel to it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
A Great Ride in So. Calif is the ride on Amtrack. I used to get on the Morning train in Chatsworth, thru to LA Union Terminal, where the train headed in, and backed out (or visa versa) past the old Espee Taylor Yards, Amtrack Shops, etc. down to the coast and along the coast to San Diego. Then transfer to the Trolley to the Border.
10/04/99
Well Paul (Matus),that reminds me after I graduated high school in 1970,I took a job in Manhattan on West 54th St. I would get on a (D) train at Newkirk Avenue for the ride to 7th Ave and 53rd St. After a while , I got sick of standing all the way to work. I left for work a half an hour earlier but took a (D) train BACK to brighton Beach. Since seating was plentiful I secured my seat for my ride to work to Brighton and back to Manhattan. If they were R1-9's , I always took the cross seat. Now that to me was the scenic route !
Bill Newkirk
Ok, I'm going to be as objective as I can about this incident as not to accuse anyone but I did witness it.
Tonight I boarded an R train at Whitehall Street at approx 7:07pm. I got on the very first car of this train (an R-32, by the way because it affects the story). Inside the car were only 3 young black men. I sat down and one of them asked me to sing. I said "why?" He said that he and his friends were just talking and one of them was singing. The TO had the door to the cab open the whole time (I guess this wouldn't really have happened on an R46) and told them they were being loud and disruptive, in a very accusing way. They told me that just because of their skin color, they were getting in trouble just for blowing off steam from work, all day people accusing them because of their skin color. At every stop, the TO would get out of the cab and stare at them. At Cortland street, his friend gets up and says "goodbye" the the TO. They got out of the train and wished me (polietly) a good night. Immediately, the TO radios control (and the police) to pickup 3 black men leaving Cortland St.
This made me very mad, they didn't do anything but be a little loud, like most folks on a Friday night after work. As the ride continued I made up my mind to say something to the TO. As we stopped at 42nd Street, I got up and said:
"You know, there was no need to call control on my friends back there"
TO: "Your friends?"
Me: "They were just blowing off steam from work."
TO: "They were distracting me and if someone got hurt, I would go to jail.
TO: "You should be ashamed of yourself for being 'their friends'. (His tone was obviously, how could you possibly be friends with "them".
As he closed the door with his tuna breath-missing teeth-ugly face I said "Perpetuating racism is a bad thing" I know I could have said something more eloquent but I was really angry and riled up.
I could tell he was angry because he drove SOOO fast to 49th st. I got off the train to walk home.
I'm still disturbed. If anyone cares, it was an R32 'R' arrived whitehall 7:07 lead car #3495.
--Peter
HERE IN LOS ANGELES THIS SAME STORY HAPPENS !!
ONE TRAIN OPERATOR STOPPED THE RED LINE TO TELL ME
I AM A BLACK MAN IN MY 50'S TO TELL ME THAT BY LOOKING THRU THE FRONT WINDOW OF THE TRAIN
( RAILFANING ) I WAS BLOCKING THE TRAIN OPERATIONS ????
THIS MEAN UGLY WHITE MALE OPERATOR WOULDNT EVEN LET ME
LOOK THRU THE FRONT WINDOW OF THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE
CAR !!!!!!!
THANK YOU salaamallah@yahoo.com
On the LIRR, a lot of engineers get antsy if you look out the front window, although you are perfectly entitled to do so. (I've checked on this).
I have been told (not asked) more than once to get away from there.
Some engineers even prop their doors open to keep people from standing at front window, but this is a service violation.
I don't know what explanation there might be in LA (other than racism). On the LIRR I think it stems sometimes from a fear of having their cab doors obstructed.
I've never had a subway operator complain about my standing at the front window, but I've often had anything from dirty looks to angry words for watching them operate the train.
Regardless of race.
Hell, if they ask me to move back, I stand back - and stare at them. They hate being watched.
One even said to me "I don't need you watching me do my job"
Needless to say, they get all bent - but what CAN they do?
Close the door.
FWIW, I've only been asked not to watch out the front one time on Metro-North.
There could be some reason in LA. Sometimes rules and regulations governing rapid transit lines can be radically different from others. In New York it is not an obstruction to view outside the front door (aka railfan window), except in emergency situations. It could very well be that in LA blocking the front door/window is prohibited (or at least detered) for those reasons.
I would really be surprised if you were singled out just because of race, although it can't be ruled out.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the only reason in L.A. is that LACMTA (and predecessor SCRTD) run things so militaristically that everyone's paranoid. All the bus drivers seem to have an attitude problem, and the rail transit operators, who are all promoted bus drivers, have an even worse, stuck-up attitude. They all act like a bunch of know-it-alls, and don't have any customer-service orientation in Los Angeles. It has been this way for the 30 years that I have lived in the Los Angeles area.
At least up in San Francisco, they don't display any attitudes -- they just act like a bunch of deaf mutes. I've never heard a driver up there ever mutter a single word (much less announce stops....)
Yeh, but the Gripmen and Conductors on the Cable Cars are great. I looking forward to my 16 hours there this Wednesday, on the way to the Midwest for a wedding. t has been 6 1/2 years, and I intend to ride Bart, the Cable Cars, and the F Line. Especially the Muni, all day for 6 bucks. Also my new call letters. The other was too long
Are you an amateur radio operator? I'm N2MMM
I guess the only legal way to railfan is to find a car that has a passenger front seat that looks directly out the front window. SEPTA's M-4's are beautiful for that ! You can have a good view even from the 2nd or 3rd seat. Who else has railfan seats, you guys mentioned New York's R-40 slants, etc?
Chuck Greene
The PATH trains (I cant remember which model) have a window on the left side of the front of the train. Even though the seat faces sideways, just look forwards and it is a great railfan window.
Los Angeles Red Line cars also have such a seat on the right side. The train operator is on the left, in a full-width cab, but there are complete window sets all the way across that cab.
Baltimore's Metro subway cars have a forward-facing window seat, right side of the train (TO sits on the left), looking thru the full-width cab. Both windows are large, and the block number sign creates a very minor obstruction. The view is especially impressive on the stretch between Old Court Road and Owings Mills, as the line goes up the median of I-795 thru Greenspring Valley.
The 2200, 2400 and 2600 Series cars in Chicago *used* to have great railfan seats, but this is changing as the operator cabs are being extended the full width of the train for OPTO.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Denver's LRVs have full-width cabs, but the cab doors have windows which allow you to see what's ahead. The operators don't mind if you watch. There is an intercom which allows you to speak to the operator if needed, but he/she isn't allowed to do so while the train is moving.
PATCO trains in Philly and New Jersey gives you a great railfan view. You sit right next to the operator infront of a bullet proof pircure window. A friend was sitting there when the window impacted with a brick at 60mph. Needless to say the window stood its ground.
[On the LIRR, a lot of engineers get antsy if you look out the front window, although you are perfectly entitled to do so. (I've checked on this).
I have been told (not asked) more than once to get away from there.
Some engineers even prop their doors open to keep people from standing at front window, but this is a service violation.
I don't know what explanation there might be in LA (other than racism). On the LIRR I think it stems sometimes from a fear of having their cab doors obstructed.]
I've never had any problems looking out the front windows on Metro North or the LIRR - and I've done it plenty of times on both. I'm referring to interference from the train crew. Twice on the LIRR, I've had passengers rather rudely try to push past me, thinking I was blocking their passage to the next car. It was quite satisfying to say "This is the last car." Once at Penn Station, just a couple of weeks ago, the idiot passenger said, quite loudly, "Oh [bowel movement]!" when he realized what was going on. Several people sitting nearby began to laugh. Needless to say, he quickly moved to the next car to the rear.
Paul: When I was in New York, the motormen were paragons of courtesy and friendship. They seemed amused to have a guy in his 50's look out the front window like a kid. I struck up many conversations with those I rode with. Black or white, race meant nothing. They were allies and comrades who were engaged in things we all loved. That's why the jerk that harrassed Salaam irritates the hell out of me. I'm a Californian, too, and railfaning should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Hey I agree with you Fred. Suprise
CAB DOORS
Trian Operators must keep the cab doors closed unless the cab is too hot or too cold, in which case they may kept slightly open, not more than four (4) inches, by use of an authorized "cab door latch" affixed in the vicinity of the cab door lock.
Did that com in to being after the original Taking of Pelham 123?
Good luck to all the Q Line Motormen and T/Os!
I wish the LIRR would have such a rule so one wouldn't feel like they are imposing when trying to watch out of the railfan window.
Salaam Allah: I'm a white guy and listen carefully. Find out who that jackass was and report his sorry ass to the authorities. A white racist is an embarrassment to humanity but especially so to a caucasian because it makes all of us look bad. He was a jerk and should not be allowed to get away with such conduct.
While calling the cops may have been a little to harsh, disrupting the TO is dangerous. I'd have to be there to see if it warranted being labeled a "distraction".
I have a similar story, happening about a year ago:
On a northbound B train at Bay Parkway, 2 young white women were trying to run from one car to the other. One didn't quite make it and put her foot in the doorway. The black conductor, who was wearing a NOI "Million Youth March" button on his uniform, went ballistic. He refused to open the door, even after the women said she wouldn't get back on the train. She was crying in pain because the conductor refused to open the door to release her foot, and she was losing circulation in her foot. He actually radioed for the police. 5 minutes later a cop comes to the platform and immediatley orders the conductor to release the woman. (BTW, the cop was black) The conductor was ranting about "this stupid immigrant bitch" (she was Russian) and then released the woman. The cop did lecture both females about the dangers and illegality of jamming the doors open, but to me watching the whole thing it seemed that the conductor would have never called the cops had a black woman done the same thing.
I can tell of an incident which has a proven precedent.
One day about 6 years ago, I rode the El home from school
downtown as I did every day at the time. I usually
disembark at 63rd Street, but as I was a new El rider and
wanted to explore a bit, I went to Millbourne station,
which was my first mistake.
As I went down the stairs to the commuter parking lot
adjacent to the station, I noticed a Millbourne police car
coming at me from Cobbs Creek Park. As I walked down the
driveway towards Market Street the car stopped and an
officer stepped out. He said to me "So where are the rest
of your friends?" Having absolutely no clue what he was
talking about, I said "What do you mean?" He said "Don't
get funny", then proceeded to grab me and put me in the
back of his squad car. I asked him what was going on but
he did not respond.
He drove down the driveway to 63rd Street station where
several other officers were waiting by the stairs. He got
out and talked with them for a few minutes and got back in
the car and drove to the 69th Street shopping area. I
asked him there and on the way to 69th Street what was
happening and why did he pick me up, but once again he
said nothing.
He stopped in front of a Foot Locker about 3 blocks south
of 69th Street Terminal, pulled me out of the car and took
me in front of who I can only assume to be the store
manager. The officer said "Is he one of them?". After a
few seconds, the manager said "I don't think so. No, he's
not." With that, he put me back in the car, asked me where
I lived and drove me home. On the way, he finnaly
explained that the Foot Locker had been robbed by
"teenagers with backpacks" and said they all high-tailed
it for the El. He stopped in front of my house let me out
and drove off.
First, being 10 years old and somewhere in the
neighborhood of 5'4" tall, how I could've been mistaken
for a teenager astounds me. And though yes, I did have on
a backpack, I tried to explain to him that I was coming
home from school.
Next, the fact that he wouldn't answer any of my
questions and drove me from place to place upset me.
I of course had to deal with the embarassment of coming
home in the back of a police car.
Once I finally sat down and thought about it, I figured
they had a reason to assume it was me but gave me no
chance to call home or didn't answer a question angered
me.
I have also learned that this isn't the firt time
something ike this has happened. My mother and brother can
tell of stories of harrassment from the Millbourne Police.
While I don't consider my incident as much "harassment" as
embarassment, one shouldn't ave to wory f the police are
going to be harrassing them whenever you're their town.
I'd call mine a transit-related mishap. I really should
have gotten off at 63rd Street.
Throughout my life I've run into discrimination, not as blatant as that which you have experienced but disturbing nonetheless. I'm a middle-aged Jew who looks the stereotype - long beard, thick glasses, thick waist - and I tend to ignore people who make cutting remarks. I was laid off by a major international corporation several years ago because of my religion (I refused to attend "mandatory" meetings scheduled on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur), and decided that it wasn't worth fighting - me against a huge corporation. After all, did I really want to work for a company whose middle management (I was entry-level management) felt that way, and who would certainly stymie my career? Fortunately, I now work for another large corporation where I'm still a minority - simply because as a native speaker of English I'm in a distinct minority at the office. The cultural milieu is wonderful!
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would have sued the Mumsers anyway, just to scare the piss out of them
Since the kid was a minor under 13 his parents HAD to be called as soon as he was picked up as a suspected perp. So laws were broken, if the story he tells happened the way he says it did.
This was obviously not NY so I don't know the laws wherever it happened but if it was NY absolutely NO laws were broken. The cops did everything right except maybe they could have explained to him the reasons right away. They cannot question the juvenile without his parents present but they certainly can have an immediate show-up with the complainant.
It happened in Millbourne, PA. Literally a stone's throw from my house just across the city line.
Millbournes attitude toward blacks, and maybe anybody who was not born there, but especially those who look different, is pretty well known. Sad little place, really.
Are you sure? Doesn't parental permission have to be obtained by the police before any type of questioning/recognition action is to take place. I remember a similar situation here in NYC a few years ago when man young men were brought in for use in lineups and their parents were not notified.
We are talking about 2 different things here. The case you are referring to involved innocent juveniles being used to fill up a lineup. To have a lineup you must have the suspect plus 5 fillups that are roughly the same height, weight, gender, complexion and age. They are usually paid $5 and very often detectives get them from homeless shelters. In that case in Suffolk Cty the detectives asked for volunteers at a high school and their parents flipped out. However Steve's case was a different story. He was picked up and brought to the complainant for an eye-witness showup, not a lineup. You don't need permission for that-if you did it would be almost impossible to arrest a juvenile. The parent is rarely there at the time and even if they were, all a parent had to do to keep their child from being arrested is to not give permission. Many cases are by eyewitness identification alone.
I might add that in NYS you can only do a showup within 1 hour after the crime. (absent unusual extenuating circumstances) After an hour you must do a formal lineup.
Several months ago I was stopped and detained by the Suffolk County Police. Several hours earlier, a black child was the victim of a hit-and-run in Amityville. I was in Brentwood, some 20 miles away. I was stopped because my car (although it had no damage) vaguely resembled the car believed to be responsible for the incident. I was held against my car on Wicks road for several minutes, embarrassed by the speculative gapes from passing motorists. I was pulled over because I was white, driving a grey car. Does that make the police racist. Not at all - they were just doing their job. By the way, they did not cut me any slack because I was white. I find that if you are non-confrontational with police you're treated the same way and if you aren't, at least you'll be alive to file a complaint.
Several months ago I was stopped and detained by the Suffolk County Police. Several hours earlier, a black child was the victim of a hit-and-run in Amityville. I was in Brentwood, some 20 miles away. I was stopped because my car (although it had no damage) vaguely resembled the car
believed to be responsible for the incident.
This kind of police behavior is generally the result of the electorate selecting fascists to hold government office.
.
.
P.S. I'm not soft on crime. Two convictions should result in an automatic life sentance with no parole/probation. However, the time to brutalize the guilty begins after conviction, not before. There is a big difference between justice and police intimidation.
However, my point was: I maintained my cool and so did the police...
What you've described is a cop being a complete jerk, not racism. Even my lilly white self has had to deal with cops who love the powertrip the badge gives them.
The one thing that puzzles me in the interaction of your story is that several folks on the forum are saying "Well, that's Millbourne for you."
But if you were hauled off because of an incident at 69th Street, that would've been in the jurisdiction of Upper Darby Police, no? And is 63rd St. station house you're referring to in Millbourne or Philadelphia?
I'm just curious because this strikes me as unusual coordination between up to three different police departments, especially for what seems like a relatively minor heist at a shoe store.
Up at City Line Avenue, the shopping centers there have an ongoing crank about thieves who swipe stuff, then flee across into Philadelphia. It isn't that Phila. police don't respond, they do ... but by the time it all gets coordinated, the perps are long gone.
If it makes you feel better, I've been stopped a number of times by police, walking and driving, for different things. If it was anything more than a simple traffic stop, it seems to have been SOP not to explain the reason until I've been checked out.
What the Conductor did in this situation is improper operation, as for calling it racist isn't warranted.
When I hear a black man call 2 Russian women "immigrants", while he's wearing a Nation of Islam Million Youth March button, you're darn right i'm justified to call what I witnessed racist. If a white conductor was wearing a KKK button and he did the same thing to a black women there wouldn't be any debate over what it is i saw.
Equating a peaceful march with an organization that spouts the outright killing of blacks and Jews isn't fair game in my book.
What's wrong with calling Russian women immigrants -- that's what they are (as a matter of fact that's what we all are in one way or another), particularly if their accents were heavy.
Doug aka BMTman
A peaceful march? The Million Youth March (especially last year's) was far from peaceful, with Khalid Muhammed (sp?) screaming about killing police officers and Jews and calling the white man the devil. The same sort of hate speeches took place this year, but at least the rally ended without incident (in that sense I guess it was peaceful).
Calling somebody an immigrant in a certain sense can be considered derogatory and degrading, especially if used like "stupid immigrant bitch" after the conductor refused to re-open the doors while her foot was stuck.
[[peaceful march? The Million Youth March (especially last year's) was far from peaceful, with
Khalid Muhammed (sp?) screaming about killing police officers and Jews and calling the white man
the devil. The same sort of hate speeches took place this year, but at least the rally ended without
incident (in that sense I guess it was peaceful).]]
Calling the white man a devil. Its fredom of speech. Nothing wrong with that. Visit www.projectusa.com Their site is full of anti-immagration stuff. Bashing immagrants for all of the countries problems. If your a white person you many not know what they went through. Cops pull you over on the NJT for no reason? Cops don't suspect you of doing something wrong.
Freedom of speech, eh? It's perfectly fine for a maniac black seperatist (who was dismissed from the Nation of Islam by Louis Farrakan for being too extreme, by the way) to stand on a podium on a street closed off to traffic in front of a group of people and scream into a mircophone with speakers more than a block away, and accuse the white man of being the devil.
Yet, when a NJ State Trooper brass made a remark along the lines that blacks and Hispanics were more likely to be involved in drug traffiking than whites, he was given the pink slip.
I am not racist. And I don't think there's any reason for anybody to be racist.
Now -- can we get back to talking about trains and buses?
A NJ State Trooper works for a governing body (ie the state = the people), so he is accountable for his actions. Kalid Muhammed doesn't speak/or work for anyone, but whether you like it or not his retoric are covered by the first amendment.
Just as despicable organizations such as the American Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan are covered by the first amendment to say what they want in public, Kalid Muhammed also has the right to say whatever he wants. IF words turn into ACTIONS then the government can take a stand against these rabble rousers.
Doug aka BMTman
Well this freedom of speech has gone too far. It seems lately I hear more immigrant bashing and racist hate than ever. And there are more hate crimes too. Someone in Queens who's a prominent Republican even wants the Chinese signs in Flushing to come down, claiming that they are "illegal" and must be in english.
When somebody's freedom is intended to hurt another, such as what project USA says, it should be banned because it puts social freedom at risk.
When are we ever going to realize that we don't have much social freedom in this country, and disband hate filled organizations and sweatshop operators! In most other developed countries, hate is not allowed. Thanks to lax movement against those who ruin the life of many, we have scratched up subway cars, the scratchiti on the front windows (especially the redbirds) is so bad you can't see out clearly.
The brand new 6200 buses Stengal got are already scratched!
Go to Hong Kong, Singapore, Paris,or Taiwan and see how much cleaner their subways are.
There's a balance between social freedom and individual freedom, and the United States hasn't found it.
John: Cut the crap. Racism is racism and it doesn't matter a hoot who says what. Derogatory language directed at someone of a different color or race or nationality is disgusting and must be combatted. There is no excuse or rationality for it. As for those jerkoff NJ cops who perpetrated those stops, the machinery of the law can take care of them. This is not 1950; its;s almost 2000 and there has been a lot of waking up that's taken place. No time to go backwards because of hate or revenge. To wit: If Colon Powell had decided to run for President in 1996, you think he would have lost? Not a chance. He's be in the WH today and most white people would be rejoicing.
Uh, Fred, it's COLIN Powell. Not that your reference doesn't sound all that bad...
The Nation of Islam is no diferent from the white-seperatist Christian Identity Church or the Klan. They're hateful, evil organizations which cannot be allowed to be legitimized by the American people. We've already seen what can happen when the Klan has gained "respectability". Even worse, we've all seen what happens when any organization who esposes racial hatred gains power. 6 million Jews paid for it.
along with Catholics, Poles, Slavs, Russians 20 Million of them
Don't forget the hundreds of thousands of American soldiers. (And people still buy VW's)
There is a difference. The Nation of Islam never espoused the out-right death of another race or culture. The same cannot be said for Nazi or the Klan. Millions of Jews (and others) were slaughtered by the members of the Third Reich. And American Blacks were lynched or burned at the stake merely for the color of their skin by crazed evil-hearted whites who were memeber of the KKK.
So I just want to set the record straight -- I have yet to find a member of the Nation of Islam with blood on their hands from the slaughter of another race (Maybe the blood of Malcolm X MIGHT be found on the hands of Louis Farrakan, but that's another matter and wouldn't apply to this post).
Doug aka BMTman
How about them yelling "Kill the Jew"
When and where???
It happened during the demonstrations in the wake of that child being killed in Crown Heights. A mob of blacks attacked Jewish student Yankel Rosenbaum; several in the crowd chanted "Kill the Jew!".
First, I should say that I'm a 40-year-old black man. I was sickened by the attack on Rosenbaum, who was an innocent caught in the wrong place. However, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Nation of Islam was involved or that any NOI members were among the crowd.
Speaking of the NOI, please remember that Farrakhan ordered Khalid Muhammad to leave the group after he made some especially inflammatory remarks.
NOW...can we get back to talking about subways?
If that statement was yelled, prove to me when the actual action was carried out.
It's been said many times, by many people. If you want to know when and where the advice was listened to, read a little history.
For example, it was said not too long ago on 125th Street, just before a store was burned down. It seems that some people who live in that area think that Jews don't belong there.
Even if no one had actually followed the suggestion, do you think it's OK to preach racism until some one acts on your preaching?
You have no problem with this jerk's behavior? He was annoyed with her for holding up the train. His response? He holds the train some more and assaults the passenger. AP was right: he's not racist, he's a xenophobe. Is that better than being a racist?
I keep seeing you state that the conductor had a "Nation of Islam Million Youth March" badge and calling the two women "immigrants" makes them a racist.
Well first of all that badge had nothing to do with him being a racist. It was his action, the fact that he referred to them as "stupid immigrant bitches" that made him a racist.
Furthermore, to try to equate the Nation of Islam with the Klu Klux Klan shows me that you don't have the slightest clue what the Nation of Islam is about. I also find that comparison very offensive. I'm sure that I am not the only one who feels this way in this discussion, but if it turns out that I am, then so be it.
The racist rhetoric that both organizations spout is much the same. As a Jew who lived in the rural South for many years (I still maintain a home there) I have been subjected to violence aimed at me by the local KKK chapter because of my religion. I've also heard Farrakhan and others call for the eradication of Jews from this planet, regretting that Hitler didn't succeed in wiping us out. From my perspective, there isn't much difference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Farrakhan tends to forget if the Nazis won, after the Jews would have been all the blacks in this country would have been killed
I definitely agree with you on that. If he did make that statement, then he should have done his homework first.
Tell me when the Nation of Islam burned a cross on your lawn, or the lawns of anyone else know? Tell me when you heard of anybody from the Nation of Islam burning someone alive or hanging innocent people.
These are just some of the things that the KKK have done.
Quite frankly, I don't know of the NOI performing any of these acts, so as far as I am concerned, I honestly see a very big difference between the two groups.
The Nation of Islam never burnt a cross on my lawn. Nor, I suspect, has the KKK burnt a cross on your lawn. Both organizations, however, because of their reprehensible rhetoric, qualify as extreme and racist. That's not the issue here. The issue was and still is, someone, with less than sufficient evidence, accused another person of being a racist. I suggest that since he (the original poster) has long since tucked his furry little tail between his legs and has headed for cover, unless someone has something new to add, let's drop the side arguments about which group is less racist or more racist and get back on topic.
No, the KKK didn't burn a cross on my lawn, but unfortunately, that's not the case for thousands of others whose lawn they have burned a cross on and I still there is a grave difference between the two organizations.
But I will agree with you, this is way off the subject of what we should be talking about, trains. So I ready to get back to that discussion.
I've mostly stayed out of this thread, but since we're doing "last comments":
Every time Khalid Muhammed opens his mouth, he burns a cross on my lawn.
Of should I say, "shatters crystal." Not all crosses are made of wood, nor do all lawns have grass.
Whatever.
He was a black racist and just as big a jerk as the LA guy who gave Salaam a hard time. Unfortunately, all races seem to have their dorks.
Did you ever think that this captive audience member just didn't want to hear the screech? Why make an issue out of nothing really important?
Who appointed you to be the "Public Avenger"? How do you know that they were 'only singing'? How do you know that they were not deliberately trying to be obnoxious? How do you know that they were not interferring with the operator's ability to hear the radio?
Let me tell you, sometimes the blare from the headphones of a CD player can be annoying to me, riding a train, going home. Why should I or any other customer have to be subject to someone elses obnoxious behavior? Finally - what makes you think it was racial? Because the youths were black and the train operator wasn't? Unless the operator let white youths sing while stopping the blacks, you haven't anything but your own stupidity to base that remark on. My advice to you - give a dollar to the ACLU and get a life.
Slow down there... I wasn't trying to start a fight just relate an incident that I witnessed. I only tried to become "Public Avenger" as you say, because I felt it was totally unnecessary to call the police.
While I was in the train for two stops, they were not being disruptive after the TO asked them to quite down. They were only complaining about the TO's apparent racism towards them (which he could overhear). I was only a by stander.
Basically, the only reason I said anything to the TO is because they were they got off the train peacefully, THEN he called the cops. That's what made me really angry. Also he was EXTREMELY rude to me. I didn't go up to him and yell, I simply said "I felt it was unnecessary to call control"
It was the opinion of the three men that the TO was racist towards them. They told me they get this kind of thing all day...
Did it ever occur to you that they were mistaken? Perhaps they were jerks who pissed others off by their behavior, not skin color.
You mean motorman not train operator.
Peter,
You were there and I (and everyone else here) know that you could've been mistaken about to T/O being racist. But the point is that you being a witness - you're definitely entitled to your opinion. Re: the T/O: If it looks like a snake, acts like a snake - then it's likely to be a snake. If the T/O was distracted then he should've spoken to the guys in a polite manner, after all - he is in a customer service role. If that doesn't work - then fine call the police. Racism is bad enough, but what gets to me even more is that some people act as if it's a thing of the past and that the playing field is level. It's clearly not the case - so stick to your guns and call it as you see it.
Wayne
Uh-Uh, No Sale my friend. You can't excuse it that easy. Let's see now - You get on a train. Three black youths come running up to you and tell you that they were doing nothing wrong but the train operator is picking on them because they were black. You believe them and accuse the white train operator (with Tuna breath) of being a racist. Then he gets annoyed with you and you wonder why.
I'm trying hard not to think that you are a total moron but I'm losing the battle. Perhaps this is one of those incidents where you just had to be there but I don't see it. You make a snap judgement with far too little information. It is far too easy for people like you to paint someone as a racist these days. We see it everywhere:
* If a teacher fails a black student - she must be a racist.
* If a cop pulls over a speeder who happens to be black - he's a racist.
* If a white supervisor disciplines a black employee, he too is a racist.
Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have made a career of doing just what you are doing. They destroyed Steven Pagonis's career and marriage by doing just that. We can assume anything we want but suppose that these 3 were acting obnoxious and preventing the train Operator from doing his job,or just harassing passengers ala Bernard Goetz. We don't know but, then, neither do you. By the way, we know the White Train Operator had tuna Breath. What about the three gentlemen that befriended you. What sort of breath did they have?
Uh-Uh, No Sale my friend. You can't excuse it that easy. Let's see now - You get on a train. Three black youths come running up to you and tell you that they were doing nothing wrong but the train operator is picking on them because they were black. You believe them and accuse the white train operator (with Tuna breath) of being a racist. Then he gets annoyed with you and you wonder why.]
Another thing that seems rather dubious about the story is why the three youths just didn't move to the next car, if the TO really was bothering them. After all, it was an R-32.
[I'm trying hard not to think that you are a total moron but I'm losing
the battle.]
Steve, let's try and keep this civil. No need to use such talk at this post. We're all railfans after all.
Doug aka BMTman
You are correct and two wrongs may not make a right. However, the original poster called a train operator a racist on far less evidence than I have that his mental capacity may be a tad lower than average. Besides, I didn't call him a moron, only stated that I was losing the battle resisting.....
Steve, I have to say your reaction seemed a lot more knee-jerk than Peter's. I've been in situations with black companions where it was ABUNDANTLY clear that they were being treated badly by a person in authority DUE TO THEIR SKIN COLOR. Perhaps you had to be there, but Peter's story - in it's entirety - inclines me to believe him.
Knee-jerk perhaps. But I must tell you, the charge of racist makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand straight up. It's too easily used these days by certain groups to mute the effectiveness of other groups. As for Peter's story, "in it's entirety" I read the same stuff you did.
1) He boarded a train after there was some sort of confrontation between the motorman and 3 young black men who, by their own admission, were somewhat boisterous.
2) Peter did not see the behavior nor did he see the motorman address the men.
3) He heard only what the young men had to say (their side of the story)
4) He obviously has a problem with motormen (he even criticized his 'tuna breath')
5) He attacks the motorman on behalf of the 3 young men, based only on their account of the story.
6) He considered it a racist act for the motorman to report the incident to Control Center.
BTW: If another customer did report the incident and the motorman did not, he'd possibly be in some 'labor relations' difficulties.
What am I missing here? We read the same account and you believe Peter and I don't. How do you get, from that account, that the motorman was a racist. Was it the tuna? Please tell me how I'd identify a racist from these few statements.
He didn't get the motorman side of the story.
Its like a judge making a decision after just hearing one side of the story. This is some politicians in NYC.
After giving this story a lot of thought, and taking all the responses into account, I agree with another poster (I believe it's Bill from Maspeth) that the T/O probably saved Peter Shifrin's posterior. I simply cannot believe that the three men were his "best friends" as they pretended. While of course we'll never know for sure, I have a strong suspicion that they would have turned on him if it weren't for the T/O's intervention. I don't know what Mr. Shifrin looks like, but not too many people are going to be able to hold their own in a three-on-one attack.
And am I the only person who thinks it odd that there were no other passengers in the head car except Mr. Shifrin and the three men? I'm fairly sure that was noted in the original posting. A logical explanation is that the "antics" from these three were enough to send other riders fleeing into the next car (remember it was an R32).
You got on at Whitehall, you don't know where they got on. Were they harassing other passengers as the train was traveling thru Brooklyn? I don't know and neither do you. You only rode with them for one stop. By virtue of that T/O saying something to them when they asked you to sing, that train operator was going to bat for YOU. He didn't have to. That is NOT HIS JOB and if he gets hurt in protecting you, he goes out on comp. with a thank you from nobody. Which means, among other things, there is a delay in him getting his salary. Sure, you felt BRAVE when they got off. When he called Control, what exactly did he tell them? I don't know and neither do you. When you got off the train and said what you did, you figuratively stabbed that T/O in the back. All of a sudden those guys were your friends? It was one stranger vs. three strangers. No matter what YOUR skin color is or THEIR skin color is, or the skin color of the T/O. Maybe that T/O saw fear on your face at the time. Was that train operator pissed off from the start and out to "get" someone because he was pissed over having an R32 rather than an R46? I don't know and neither do you. Those R guys love those 46's! But seriously, we get too hung up about race. As many of you know, I am a MOTORMAN. Rookies are T/O's! You have to earn the Motorman title! How would I have handled it? I don't get involved in disputes among passengers. My job is to move that train. I will not do what the transit police is supposed to do. All my responsibility is to call it in. I am not trained in physically subduing people if necessary, I do not wear a bullet-proof vest (but I have a safety vest!), and I do not carry a gun. I will not jeoparize MY safety and the responsibility I have a father and husband to my loved ones. I am the bread winner of my family. But experience teaches you this kind of thing. What would your reaction to the whole thing if everything was the same yet the T/O was black? Then all of a sudden the race card doesn't apply? I admit, the one thing I don't tolerate is smoking in my car. I will open the cab door and request for that cancer stick to be put out. Many time, I don't see the person who is smoking and frankly, I don't care! Since I am a white man, does this mean I am a racist if a black person is smoking?
Bill: I hope you like your job. If I hadn't moved to California when I was 14, I'm convinced that today I'd be a motorman, too.
Makes three of us, but my eyes were bad, so I would be a Motorman on the D/Q Mispronouncing Ave M, J, U, H 34th St etc
Maybe you would have even operated the Triplexes during their final days.
Not to take away from the situation that you encountered, but WHAT THE HECK DID THIS STORY HAVE TO DO WITH AN R-32????
I thought in the beginning you were going to mention some relevance? I am confused here....
Oh yeah, I felt that if it was an R46 (as the R usually is) there would have been more sound proofing and not as easy for the TO to keep opening the door into the car (as it seems easier and quicker on the R32.
Plus on the R-32s, you can move from car to car. On the R-46s, the storm doors are kept locked.
Interesting story, but remember that there might be things you don't know. It could be that the three men indeed were severely disruptive before you got on. I would caution against jumping to conclusions if you don't have all the facts.
One more thing - I find it difficult to imagine that any white transit worker could be racist, given the makeup of the TA's work force. He wouldn't have lasted a week.
Ture, I was not on the train before... but I was the only other person in the car for two stops. While I was in the car the men were nothing but polite to me and complaining about the TO reactions to them.
But when the TO said to me how "I could be friends with "them" ANd you really had to be there to hear how he said them...
I just felt it was REALLY unneccessary to call the police. Because after the TO asked them to quiet down, they did!
I know that the TO could hear _them_ talking to _me_ about how they felt he was being racist. Maybe that's why he got angry and called the cops.
It's also possible that there was agitation on both sides. Maybe when those guys first got on the train they were being loud, but otherwise keeping to themselves. Perhaps the motorman shot them a dirty look -- which can happen since he is trying to concentrate on his job.
Then by the time you got on, the three guys might have been trying to "mess" with the TO from their earlier confrontation with him, by being coy with you. I've seen this thing happen before. A bunch of black guys will "befriend" a neutral white guy (or couple) to "mess with the head" of a non-black that they dislike. It's a mind-game kind of thing that as I've said, I have seen before. I could be wrong about your particular case since I wasn't there, but it is only a theory on my part.
Doug aka BMTman
[I know that the TO could hear _them_ talking to _me_ about how they felt he was being racist. Maybe that's why he got angry and called the cops]
Well, that certainly would make most people angry. Accusing someone of being a racist is a very serious matter. Whether it was enough to provoke him to call the police is another story. I stand by what I said, that it's not really fair to come to a conclusion if you don't have all the facts.
This reminds me a bit of an incident which happened at the Brighton Beach D/Q station on Aug. 14, 1998, at about 9.30 am. For some reason, the Q stopped when it was about halfway out of the station; some of the cars were still on the platform. Two older Russian women had just missed that train (so did I), and they wanted the conductor to open the doors for them! A TA employee (I think it was another TO or conductor) tried to explain that the doors could not be safely opened for them. Right off the bat the women (who could barely speak English) accused the TA of "reverse racism". It saddened me to see how quickly these people learned to cry racism - it makes things hard for those who are victims of the real deal.
If the TO on that R train was so disturbed by his passengers' loud singing and talking, he should've closed the cab door. Unfortunately, if the cops picked up those three men they were in for a rough weekend.
Thought I'd take the opportunity to announce the birth of a new railfan today. My older daughter Amanda and her husband Larry are now the proud parents of another boy (their second son, my second grandchild), Andrew Joseph Lovecchio (a.k.a. Drew), at 8:36 AM Pacific time. He weighed in at 10 lbs. even, 21 3/4" long (tall?) and, like his brother Alex (2 1/2 years old) will be a dedicated railfan all his life. Both of his grandpas will see to that!
Until next time...
Drew's Zayda (a.k.a. Anon_e_mouse)
Congradulations!! May he live a long healthy life. Brian
MAZEL TOV!!!!
I'll second the Mazeltov. My nephew (and godson) celebrated his first birthday yesterday. His birth weight was 10 lb., 4 oz. My sister says she makes 'em big; my niece weighed in at 9 3/4 lbs when she was born. We'll see if my nephew goes for trains the way I do.
Congratulations to Amanda and her husband Larry on the birth of a new railfan Andrew a.k.a Drew. Also congratulations to the proud grandparents to see the he will be a railfan also.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
The world can never have too many railfans. Congratulations.
I second that emotion. Also, a big MAZEL TOV !
Chuck Greene
I third it. Make sure he becomes a Sea Beach fan, though.
Fred, I'll see to it that he rides the line next time I get him out east!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mazel Tov, Anon-e! Another great reason for the Slant R-40s to live a long life too, so that he may have a low window to look through soon!
You're a Zaydeh (sic) now! Mazel tov to you and yours.
Wayne
MAZEL TOV !!!!!!!
Are we invited to the bris......We could take Amtrak out to CA...
Well, my daughter married a Catholic, so they're ignoring both faiths for the time being (almost - there is a mezzuzah on the door, but that's it). Wish there would be a bris, but no such luck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another hearty Mazel Tov!
-- Ed Sachs
Mazel Tov, anon,
There's nothing better than a bright new light in the world!
Of course, let's not get TOO excited - he could grow up to be a roadgeek :-)
That's not too bad! I'm both!
Congratulations! We need more railfans, no matter how young they are :-)
MAZEL TOV!!!!!
Congradulations. All the best to mother,child and grandad.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What can I say, but to add my voice to the others?? MAZEL TOV!!!!
Congratulations! We're all very happy for you! We hope you will share many happy moments with your new grandson.
Wow! Big baby!! Mazel tov to you and your entire family on the arrival of your (and our) newest railfan, Drew!
I'm sure Grandpa will teach him well.
--Mark
Thanks, Mark - and thanks to everyone else who has welcomed him!
He's doing great - constantly hungry, of course. My wife's having a wonderful time out in Las Vegas with him and his brother - Bubbe duty! When she comes home next week I'll scan a pic and post a link to it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the pics are finally on the web - take a peek at Anon_e_mouse's Home Page. Two of the most precious grandsons anyone could wish for (not to mention a rather sweet grandma too).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oy! Such naches!
Mazel tov from Chicago!
Whoa guys. Sorry I got caught up in the thread about the mayor. In my opinion it is becoming way too incindiary and is not transit relative. If you guys want to fight it out, I'll watch from here.
A-Men This is a Transit Web not a political one, unless it has something to do with transit
Yeah, even I got sucked in. I did the same thing in the New York Met newsgroup recently and veered WAY, WAY off topic. LOL. Bact to trains ...
Hey, how about those Mets? I'm going out for some humble pie...
I agree. As far as I'm concerned, arguing about the Mayor, or Hillary, or any other political figure, is OK in this forum IF it pertains to their position on transit-related topics. Otherwise, I think it should be discussed elsewhere.
I completely agree, also about cops, race, religion, creed, only if it effects what this web is for, discussions on rail/rapid transit. I f you want to debate someone please use a political chat or e mail that person directly
Howdy,
On Friday I'm flying to Portland, Or for a week and I got a great fare on American Airlines but the only thing is that i have to fly out of Mac Author airport in Islip, LI. I'm comming out of NJ via NY Penn Station. Can anyone tell me how far the train station in Islip is from the airport ,the best way (and fastest) to get from the train station to the airport, and a ruff estimate of how much a cab ride from the train station to the airport would be?? Any help would be appriciated,
Thanks in advance
AJ in Jersey
[On Friday I'm flying to Portland, Or for a week and I got a great fare on American Airlines but the only thing is that i have to fly out of Mac Author airport in Islip, LI. I'm comming out of NJ via NY
Penn Station. Can anyone tell me how far the train station in Islip is from the airport ,the best way (and fastest) to get from the train station to the airport, and a ruff estimate of how much a cab ride
from the train station to the airport would be??]
MacArthur's terminal is something like three to five miles from Ronkonkoma station. The airport's actually across the street from the station, but the terminal's around the other side. I'm not sure if there are any shuttle services up and running yet, but in any event there always are taxis available at Ronkonkoma. I really can't give an estimate on the cost.
Take LIRR from Penn to Ronkonkoma - runs 1x each hour at approx 0:14 each hour - approx 70 mins to Ronkonkoma. More service in PM peak hours - less service during AM reverse peak (leaving NY at 5:12 AM and 7:40 AM only due to single track east of Farmingdale).
Taxi costs about $8 from Ronkonkoma and takes 10 mind.
Originally there were plans to move the passenger terminal to the north side of the field so that there would be some sort of people mover to/from Ronkonkoma station. Thereby allowing Mac Arthur to be a reliever type airport for LaG and JFK. Like all other LIRR plans this went into the "dumper". Originally Congressman Bob Mrazek secured funding for electrification to Port Jeff. LIRR president (at that time) Bruce Mc Giver announced that the money was going to go to electrify to Ronkonkoma and as a "consolation prize", we of the Port Jeff branch would get dual-mode trains. They have just arrived (along with the loud horn problem) about TEN YEARS behind original projected delivery date. Typical how politicians can gum things up
I was at Islip MacArthur aiport on 9.28.1999 and saw a sign for shuttle service to the LIRR. Also, there is a rack of LIRR timetables and a long list of the prices each of eight cab companies charge to locations on LI. I was busy picking up arriving friends, so I may have missed other informative signs. The politician who puts his name on whatever the Town of Islip taxpayers pay for is, I believe, the guilty party. The airport terminal exit leads to Johnson Avenue and Islip. If it faced north, it would face the town line and the LIRR.
What's happening on Broadway? A friend says 1 service was irregular during the late night hours. Apparently, trains from South Ferry were operating to 96th St on the Brooklyn Bound Exp Track and you had to transfer across the downtown platform (South Ferry Bound Local Track) for a 242nd St bound 1, which ran exp to 137th St and Broadway. Anyone care to elaborate as to what the exact G.O. was for??
-Stef
I don't know what they're doing, but they looked like they were assembling quite a work team late Friday night. I had the railfan window on a 1 train from Van Cortlandt at about 11:40PM. We crawled behind a work train down from 168, passing some work trains on the uptown track as well. The train skipped 125, 116 and 110 to make up time -- all along the way it looked like they were getting ready for major work on the center track. After stopping at 103, they put us on the express track at 96th and announced the train would go express to 42nd. I had to switch to the next 1 (which was already arriving on the local track) to get to 86th.
Interesting. It just so happens there are two separate General Orders in effect. One GO makes the 1 a 30 minute service between 137th and 242nd Sts, while the other requires a change of trains at 96th St. The MTA site has a listing of Service Disruptions to come during the weeks ahead.
Regards,
Stef
I was out and about today with my oldest son with his $4.00 all day MetroCard. Was today a typical Sunday for G.O's? It seemed like an awful lot to me! The ones I came across: B Manhattan bound: over N line from Stillwell to 36, then local to DeKalb. N normal Manhattan bound, CI bound over the Brighton Exp. from DeKalb to Stillwell. R: shuttle only 36 to 95. So the only southbound service on Fourth Ave. from Pacific to 36 was the B running express. 1 service instead of 3! E: in both directions local thru Queens and rerouted to Whitehall. F: from Queens local and then over the G from Queens Plaza to Bergen, normal to Queens. So no Manhattan bound E/F service and only F going to Queens. 4 to Atlantic Ave., 2/3: Express Manhattn Bound to Atlantic. 4/5 express on local track uptown from 14 to Grand Central due to platform work at GC. 6 trains replaced by buses in the Bronx due to switch re-replacement at 177/Parkchester. I'm sure there were others! I recognise the need for structural work, but could so much at one time on so many lines actually adversely affect ridership in the short term?
What the heck were they thinking about Bill?!? Too many GOs happening at one time? Perhaps. The GOs were overlapping each other. I don't know if it's practical, having double GOs on one line and confusing (or inconveniencing) the passenegers that much more. One thing that I can't understand is what was happening on the B and the N. The N to CI was on the Brighton Line while the B was travelling on the N to 36th St, right?
The work in question, did it require any wrong railing, and can I safely assume that a major junction (36th St) was under construction?
While the news about the B was not surprising, there was no notice about the N anywhere.
-Stef
Perhaps F1 track between DeKalb and Pacific St. was being woked on which precipitated the N trains going to the Brighton exp.......on the Manhattan bound B, we saw work trains on the middle track around 18th Ave. laying track panels and another one around 50th or 55th doing whatever on the local track. We didn't notice any wrong-railing. We noticed this on our trip on the B toward Bay Pkwy. where we got off and stopped at the bagel shop to bring some home. We then took the B6 bus across Bay Pkwy to hook up with the Sea Beach line.
Hey Fred did you read about the General orders, Your Sea Beach finally made it to Prospect Park, 42 years too late, and on the last day of the season. I read they usually route the Brighton to the West End for repairs, but not the Sea Beach
That's why there was a R-40 on the Brighton Express track! Oh I see!
When you're a monopoly run by heartless bean counters, you can treat your customers like dirt and not care. I have been saying this for years. Now everybody wakes up that it's too late.
Sounds Like the Post Office, or the Cable Company, or the Phone Companies, etc
I just needed something to type so i can get the cookie back in my browser. I cleared the cache today.
What kind of car is 4506? I am assuming it is a R38, R40, or R42. Is it one of those or a diffeerent type?
4506 is a modified (straight front) R40.
We call #4506 and his brethren an R40M. Originally destined to have a slant front, a design change at the last minute caused it (and the others in the batch) to wear the straight, R42-style front end.
As delivered in 1969, this car wore #4306, and possibly also had a Brake Test number as well.
You can see its R40 roots at the "B" end doors, which have long windows, and also on the inside of both storm doors, which have the distinctive R40 cutouts.
The "A" end storm door windows are a little smaller and higher than the R42. Also the side corrugations are the same as those on the Slant R40.
Wayne
I was on a Queens-bound N train at 14th street Friday afternoon and the T/O and conductor were talking, then said the train would terminate at 57/7th due to a police action at Queensboro plaza. We proceeded to 34th then a red signal, they said City Hall radiod them, and then the conductor announced that the train was terminating at 42nd street, we switched to the express track then arrived at 42nd. Interesting to see all this from the railfan window (it was an R32), the signal was red and then turned yellow-green when City Hall told them to switch tracks. they said when we were at 23rd there were no N,7, or R trains to Queens. But when we got up to 42nd they said there was R and 7 service. They said it was a "police action". This all took place between 1 and 2pm Friday. Does anybody know what happened?
There was a threat of a bomb in the station at Queensboro Plaza.
N trains were turned back to Brooklyn at selected points.
No 7 train service between T.S. and Woodside.
Wonder what happened to any trains that were Queens bound in the tunnel? I assume they are turned around somehow.
R service was normal except for the Crush Loads in the middle of the day and the confusion of non english speaking pax at Lex Ave (59th St).
It took me longer to get back to work from a lunch date.
If a N made it past Lex Ave, it should have been diverted to Queens Plaza (underground R stop).
I heard on the radio this morning that the IRT #2 and 3 trains are going to be bypassing all stops from Atlantic to Franklin Aves.
Someone mentioned that it was just a coincidence that work on the local tracks of the New Lots/Flatbush Lines is occurring on the same weekend of the opening of the "Sensation" exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum of Art.
Others might surmise that the Mayor pulled strings at the MTA and got the trains deverted from their normal routes.
Food for thought...
Doug aka BMTman
Not True, Today was my last day on the No.2 Line and it about time they fix that skeliten Track between Grand Army and Bergen Street. They are finally pouring the concrete on the track.
Also only the Uptown trains are Express. Downtown No.2,3 Trains are stopping at Eastern Parkway.
They had that Uptown Local track uncovered since July. I got into many fights with Times Sqaure and E 241 St on why I was 5 Minutes late. I would tell them I Must do 10 Miles Per Hour or risk a derailment. Well i'm glad they are finally fixing the track. I was on time today at 241 St.
But you can't help but wonder the timing. But this G.O was planned 2 weeks ago.
Good BYE Broadway, Hello Pelham I'M coming home
I'm suprised there wasn't another G.O. with or without a supplement schedule which added a few minutes running time due to the skeletonized track. On the E line, we've had skeletonized track between Jamaica/VanWyck and Supthin (toward Jamaica) since June! A supplement schedule came out adding 2 minutes running time, with a few crews having their trip times adjusted along with an extra AM put in required. Southbound at Continental, they started tearing up that switch in the beginning of August with skeletonized track and they only put out a G.O. this week giving express trains 2 minutes extra running time and the local 1 extra minute running time. Draw your own conclusions!
If the work was scheduled weeks ago, then there is no reason to think Guiliani had anything to do with it.
People think what they want to think whether or not they know the facts. I would hope a G.O. could not be pulled by a political hat trick but in the case of the first million youth march, The 125 Street station on the A line was closed. Besides an express station, being the first ADA compliant link between the 6th and 8th Av routes from the Bronx end should have enough power in itself to keep it open for transfers at least but close it? You mean the TA can keep Grand Central open during a fire but must close a subway because the Virgin Mary did a poopoo? Pleeeeeeze.
Well, she did become famous giving birth in a manger, what is found in a manger, animals, what do animals do. The Artist is African, and instead of a camel, he had a elephant. BIG DEAL, doesn t Rudy go somewhere too?
I have tried to stay out of this but feel I must rerspond:
Firest, I am not of the Caholic Church but I am a fundamentalist Christian (Protestant to those of the Catholic Faith).
To me Mary is a woman who gave Birth to Jesus. I know the Catholic Church reveres her- and I understand that.
My comment is Christinas bashing in General . In Cussing, they alway use the Name of Jesus as a cuss word- Never do they sday Buddha D***, or Shinto D** or Confucious *** but they say G*** D***
I do not descend to that level, but do you think if I did a picture of a famous civil rights leader with manure for hair if I would be admired. I already know I'd be run out of town (rightfully so). WHy pick on the Christian Church. We are a free country and can liek or dislike anything.
The TA did run shuttle bus service. Please stop equating Transit with dictators.
As for the damning, anybody saying g-d damn, isn't necessarily insulting Jesus. G-d is a general term that refers to all those others you mentioned (except for Shinto and Confucius and often Buddha, I think you should have mentioned Allah).
With due respect. to me Jesus is special, God is special and has no last name! to me it is breaking one of the 10 Commandments given to us as Christians and Jews alike by a taking of God's Name in vain.
I could have easily added Allah or any other Divine Being or maybe some other famous people but did not want to flame this further.
We need to respect each other's beliefs- even if we disagree with their belief system.
We are a diverse country with people of many different cultures and belief systems. We were founded by a group of people who wanted to worship their Diving Being in their way and not have the state say how it should be done.
We do not have to embrace their belief but accept their right ot their beliefs and not condemn anyone for their belief system.
The Artist had the right to create that painting- yes. Should the artist have done so-- No, poor judgment. He should show respect to others by reconginzing that some might find it objectionable.
I am not attending that exhibit. The museum is shoeing poor judgment by deliberately holding an exhibition that will offend a large segment of the population in this country.
I work for Transit- I work with people of different belief systems. You dont have to accept their belief system to treat anyone with dignity and respect.
(Last comment on this.)
[The Artist had the right to create that painting- yes. Should the artist have done so-- No, poor judgment. He should show respect to others by reconginzing that some might find it objectionable. ]
Wrong. We cannot limit our artist's creative expressions by expecting them to judge whether the Majority would find their creation objectionable. Our country works because we allow our artists to express themselves no matter how ugly or mean their works turn out. It is up to the public to deside how they feel about the piece. If the public has a strong feeling about it, whether for or against, then the artist has done his job well.
Ok, that's all TRUE. But, you said that when a person says G-d d***, they automatically say it in reference to Jesus, when in actuality, all of those others believe that G-d Damn is in reference to their deity (i.e. a Buddhist who worships Buddha as god will consider G-d d*** to be the equivalent of Buddha d***).
***=amn
With the weather being as great as it was, I decided to take the trusty camera and head over to B'way/East New York stations of the Canarsie Line to take some shots of two projects in the works: (1) the re-installation of rail on track P1 at Atlantic Ave. and (2) the progress on the overhead walkway/waiting area at Bway/East New York.
At Atlantic, I found new track laid, but third rail still has to be added as well as the connections to the signal systems. I saw markings on the ties and rail indictating "Atlantic Ave." so the track sections were evidently pre-fabbed at Linden Shops and hauled during the week. (I saw a work train at Atlantic earlier in the week on the way home). Also, new steel support beams had been laid between Atlantic AVe. and B'way/East New York. A crew was up there priming and painting the structure, so I give the crew another two or three weeks and P1 should be back in use.
The new overhead walkway construction at B'way is going ahead after a bit of a delay. When it is completed railfans will be treated to a grand view of the structure much like the overhead walkway/waiting area at E. 105th Street gives a picturesque view of the tracks leading to Rockaway Parkway/Canarsie yard.
I will post another update as these projects move along.
Doug aka BMTman
They are also doing a major remodeling of the Braodway ENY IND station. I noticed brand new light fixtures near the front exit on the Rockaway/Lefferts bound platform the other day.
That overhead construction at B'way Jct.: I haven't seen it yet, but I would hope the fence would be high enough to prevent the vandals from throwing objects at passing trains or the platform down below. We don't want to see an employee injury, passenger injury or equipment damage.
I think they're putting a high fence up round it. That should be a spectacular view of everything all round, yard, stations, switches, The "JJ" flyover, the works. It'll be a great photo-op once it's done. Sad to see the Atlantic Avenue station getting all torn up like that. You'd think they'd leave at least four tracks there, in case they need to use it as a temporary terminal/turnaround/relay site.
As for Broadway-ENY, well, new lighting is going up all over the IND. They can do what they want just as long as they don't touch the wall tile; as hideous as that shade of blue is, it is unique.
Speaking of IND - tomorrow morning I go to Chambers Street-H&M/WTC to take pictures of Oculus, the Giant Eye. Should be worth "seeing" :o>
Wayne.
I think its sad to see it go too, its a relic of the old Fulton El. But that's because we are railfans!! Realistically though, its not practical to have 2 els on two different parallel streets, one for each direction of one line, especially if you have extra tracks on each. Its hard to believe they left it that way for 50 years.
Are they taking down the el over Van Sinderen or the one over Snediker?
I was under the impression that they are taking down Sneidiker.
Japan did not need the iron then either,
The Snediker side is the one to be demolished.
BTW, the work has yet to start. I believe the TA is waiting for the track crews to finish the installation of the new track on P1 before they go full steam ahead with the "major surgery" at Atlantic Ave.
The reason the el structure remained for 50 years w/o demolition is the fact that aside from blocking sunlight the structure wasn't doing anyone any harm. But now we have the MTA which realized that the unused steel at B'way/East New York and Atlantic Ave. amounts to untapped scrap $$$. And that's the bottom line.
Doug aka BMTman
There's more to it than that. For 50 years the Canarsie Line has had the same signal system. Now, NYCT is replacing the signals with a state-of-the-art Communications-Based Train Control (CBTC) system. That makes this the perfect time to consolidate structures between Sutter Avenue and Broadway Junction. Besides bringing some small amount of scrap money in (to the City of New York, which owns the subway, not to MTA/NYCT, which only runs it), it allows Manhattan-bound trains to operate at higher speeds since some curves are eliminated. This will become fully evident when CBTC is in place, since the R-143 cars now on order (mostly for the Canarsie Line) are designed to run with two propulsion curves: "hot" (like a standard train that's still field-shunted) and "cold" (like a standard train that has had the field shunting provision removed, which is what runs on the line now). "Hot" will be used where CBTC is present and functioning properly; "cold" will be used where it isn't. On-board systems on the trains will determine which to use.
David
[The reason the el structure remained for 50 years w/o demolition is the fact that aside from blocking sunlight the structure wasn't doing anyone any harm. But now we have the MTA which realized that the unused steel at B'way/East New York and Atlantic Ave. amounts to untapped scrap $$$. And that's the bottom line.]
Gee, if only a certain fleet of cars had that same two-curve feature...my, my.
A COUPLE of fleets, TBA. Some of those "A" boats are mighty pokey.
(But others are mighty peppy!)
Wayne
Quite true. And they're 75-footers for the most part. Need I say more?
I guess it would be too much to ask to have some urban archeologist photograph and catalog the Snediker Avenue structure as it comes down.
Though heavily rebuilt, it is the last piece of the original Fulton Street L (since the piece at Franklin Ave. was destroyed). It is supposed to contain ironwork from the 19th century, though noone knows for sure how much or which pieces.
After it's torn down (if anyone cares), we'll never know.
I was under the impression that the Sneideker Ave. el only dates back as far as 1906, the same year the rest of the current Canarsie line was built.
No, I don't have the date in front of me, but Snediker dates to the 1880s or '90s when the Fulton L was extended to City Line. It predates the current Broadway Jct. complex and even the unwieldy "Manhattan Jct." connection which was the first physical connection between the Brooklyn Elevated's Lexington Avenue Line and the Kings County's Fulton St. Line.
However, it was heavily rebuilt when the current complex was constructed. How heavily, even TA engineers are not supposed to know.
The Canarsie Line predates 1906, when the line was on the ground.
I know, I was referring to the date the current Canarsie el was built, which was in 1906. Anyway, it appears I am wrong.
Have the Feds Declare in a National Historical Landmark, and it will stand forever
While I hate to see transit history demolished, the station as it is today is an eyesore, and an operational nuisance. I'm just glad I got to see it in my lifetime.
The Snediker route is the original route of the Fulton/Canarsie line between Atlantic Ave. and near Sutter. It was a 2 track line serving both Canarsie and Fulton trains with junctions at grade at Manhattan Junction and near Pitkin. I beleive there was another station on the line called East New York before the line split at grade to branch to the Fulton line along Pitkin and the Canarsie line to Sutter and further South. The structure was constructed, I beleive in the style of the original Fulton line using lattice style construction which survived on the Pitkin branch to the end. The Snediker section as we know it today seems to be a complete rebuild when the Bway Junction -Atlantic complex was rebuilt in the early 20th century using solid steel plate girders. I beleive there is one picture ot the original 2 track Atlantic Ave. station the book, "The Brooklyn Elevated", by Greller and Watson.
How about the el on Van Sinderin, is that the same age. They seem to compliment each other.
The Snediker route is the original route of the Fulton/Canarsie line between Atlantic Ave. and near Sutter. It was a 2 track line serving both Canarsie and Fulton trains with junctions at grade at Manhattan Junction and near Pitkin. I beleive there was another station on the line called East New York before the line split at grade to branch to the Fulton line along Pitkin and the Canarsie line to Sutter and further South. The structure was constructed, I beleive in the style of the original Fulton line using lattice style construction which survived on the Pitkin branch to the end. The Snediker section as we know it today seems to be a complete rebuild when the Bway Junction -Atlantic complex was rebuilt in the early 20th century using solid steel plate girders. I believe there is one picture ot the original 2 track Atlantic Ave. station the book, "The Brooklyn Elevated", by Greller and Watson. I believe the Van Sindern route is about the same age as the rebuilt Snediker route and this elevated section was not present before the rebuild of the junction. The 2 sections may have been opened in stages, but I'm not 100% sure.
Brian, I think you're right about the Snediker side of the el. It looks to be about the same age as the Van Sinderin side of the structure -- both having been rebuilt under the Dual Contracts. Again, it would be hard to find out which one actually was completed and went into revenue service first.
Thanks for the great info.
Doug aka BMTman
The el on Snediker was rebuilt when the bigger structure on Van Sinderin was built.
[The reason the el structure remained for 50 years w/o demolition is the fact that aside from blocking sunlight the structure wasn't doing anyone any harm. But now we have the MTA which realized that the unused steel at B'way/East New York and Atlantic Ave. amounts to untapped scrap $$$. And that's the bottom line.]
Dunno what price scrap iron's fetching these days, but somehow I doubt it'll be sufficient to cover the demolition costs.
there probally thinking the long term benefits of not having to maintain 2 old el structres. they only have to maintain one old EL structure.
It's not a traditional walkway, it's more like a small building, with a roof four walls the whole nine yards (Just like the combo station booth and walkway at Broad Channel or at E. 105th St. on the L).
It could be a giant relay room ala what is on the old "el" structure at Bway-Myrtle. If this is so, then there would be no passenger access.
Ok I found out something very interesting. Remember the New swiches they put in North of Parkchester. Well they are being replaced now 1 year later. So here are the following Service Disruptions
WEEKDAYS
All No.6 Trains will make ALL STOPs No PELHAM EXPRESS for at least the next 2 weeks. Every thing will be on the Local tracks.
WEEKENDS
NO No.6 Service from Hunts Point Ave to Pelham Bay Park.
There will be a Local or Express SHUTTLE Bus
Another Money Thrown Away scandal in which nobody is accountable for the original shoddy work. Now passengers and operating employees alike have to be inconvenienced again. Maybe they'll scrap those wheel detectors.
Hi,Does anyone have a Complete listing
Thanks
Steve
A defective switch? Is that possible? What I should be asking is what Transit hopes to accomplish by replacing those switches, other than to speed up movement through the bottle neck (even movement of those wheel detectors to a different location). #8 Train, where are you?
-Stef
Was on the 5 train yesterday from Brooklyn Bridge to GCT, had a train of redbirds but we had all red and yellow signals ahead of us, we were going no more than 15mph the whole way, our average speed was about 10mph, and the several local 6 trains past us. I could barely see any train ahead of us, those signals are a pain! We could've gone faster if it weren't for all the signals, since they put those stupid wheel detectors in the trains on the Lex express have been much slower. Wheel detectors are those things marked "WD", right?
You can't have frequent rush hour service with trains being kept so far apart.
The wheel detector is only activated for a diverging route, which the Lex Expresses had to take since there was work on the Northbound Express Track at GCT. The Wheel Detector might be a practical safety feature, just so T/O's don't go speeding over the switch and having a potential accident. I can't fault the people in Transit for at least trying to make the system safer.
-Stef
Which 8 Train? Both were els and have been gone for years
I think thats what he meant!!!
Probably not. Rollsigns on the R-62 fleet contain a green 8. I saw one between cars on the 6 on Wednesday.
The R62 has a green 8, red 9 (which is why the skip/stop train added to the 1 line was called 9), and IIRC, a purple 10.
Purple 11, Red 10, 13, Green 12. Wouldn't it be cool if the 7 express came to be signed as the 11? unless Southland decides to file a copyright infringement suit on the MTA.
No, GREEN 10, Purple 11, Red 12 and 13. I think there's also a green 14. I have seen Green 10 on numerous occasions as well as purple 11.
These alternative route numbers would be ideal for the rush-hour services.
Wayne
I saw a green 11 on a ten car set that was out of service recently on the Pelham Line. But, I do belive I've seen a purple 11 too. Weird huh?
Having the Flushing express labeled purple>11 would make it easier to tell them
apart from the local. Unfortunatley I don't the the R3336 WF cars have these signs. Perhaps when the
Flushing line gets the R62's ...
Sorry for confusing everyone out here, I just thought I'd clear up what I was trying to say.
I alluded to the 8 train at the end of my previous message, and this is what needs clarification. There is a green 8, red 9, green 10, purple 11, green 12, and red 13. The reason I mentioned the 8, is that a SubTalk poster some months ago mentioned a propsal for improving the service on the Pelham Line and eliminating the bottle neck at Parkchester. An express that terminates at Parkchester, and a local to Pelham is much more practrical than the service at the present time. Presently, the local/exp service overlaps each other, and so I don't see why you can't undo the so-called Parkchester bottleneck. Gee, doesn't the local going into the middle for the relay back to Manhattan delay the Pelham Exp waiting to cross to the local track (and heading to Pelham)?
That's what I was thinking!
Regards,
Stef
Wow and there are 70MPH turnouts on the North East Corridor hmmm...
This means that MABSTOA will get our work from Huntspoint to Pelham. What a shame!
Bob,
I tried to reply to your Email twice but I got back a message from the Post Office "user Unknown". I don't know why as I clicked "reply" so it should have gone to the exact Email addy you sent it from!!!! Just letting you know so you don't think I'm ignoring you.
bobnjudy3@juno.com My mistake, try it again Bob
I've been seeing alot of signal work lately on the subways, is this a sign of the possible addition of more of those dreaded wheel detectors?
Since they added them in on the Lexington avenue express it's been a good deal slower. Why are they adding these "WD's"? Subways should be rapid transit, not crawling like that 5 train I was on Friday!
The GT's are annoying enough, now wheel detectors, what's next? The trains are slower than they've ever been, soon they will be traveling the same speeds as a city bus!
Get used to it. It's not so Rapid Transit today. $$ dollars before efficency. And that safety line is a load of BULL! It ran fine for 80 years untill they started trying to save money by modifying the brakes.
MTA= Resistance is Futile
What I'm still at a loss to understand is how the subway's signal system had suddenly become "inadaquate" to handle today's trains. I mean, it's not like the bulk of the equipment is anything recent. I'll peg it on brakes, but it begs the question - why WOULDN'T you want a maximum decelleration rate in emergency?
The signal system did not suddenly become inadequate.
It took many years of engineering to accomplish that. Start
with SMEE cars that had higher top end speeds than their predecessors.
Not too bad though, because their brakes were superior too,
so stop distances were about the same. Then starting in the
late 60s, block lengths were reduced in some areas to increase
track capacity, the fleet started going over to comp. shoes,
and finally the relay valves were "upgraded" to improve passenger
comfort by reducing service and emergency brake rates. A lot of
low-level people at the TA advised managers that all this was a bad
idea years before the WB wreck. Then the NTSB came in and issued
a critical report which forced the TA to react.
Wheel detectors are a complicated system, difficult to calibrate,
and because they are essentially blind stops, train operators
proceed DEAD SLOW through them. They were more a reaction to the
Union Square wreck, though oddly they do not address that particular
scenario. The WD protects against against a TO entering a turnout
at the proper speed but wrapping it up too quickly so the back
end of the train whips through the switch. This is a fairly obscure
problem and the chances of it causing a derailment are slim because
how fast can you go anyway while you're over a tight switch?
You've got a car or two on the gap at any given time and you have
the additional curve load to slow you down. IMHO, they could have
addressed this by using the existing "DT" 2-shot timers (or luny whites) and just extending the time control for one block beyond
the turnout.
Maybe Mr Train Control can explain the tech operation of the WD
track circuits. Is it similar to constant warning time highway
crossing protection?
THANX JEFF! An educated and knowledgeble person sees my point. The whole point was saving money on flat wheels and lawsuits over falls from hard emergency stops. Money before safety, yep That's TA.
So now we have to live with this kneejerk reaction to please the feds. It costs money. But it saves money too. Now the equipment can use less power and TA saves! With everything in Enercon to slow it down, power consumption is cut. I'm sure TA has notified Con Ed to have their billing adjusted.
But "We're SERIOUS about safety"!
This all reminds me of a tape I have. Cab ride on a Amtrak AEM7 911 (no I did not make up the number) from DC to Philly. The electric motor can go 125mph, it had two speedometers. BUT one was reading wrong.
The problem here was the OVERSPEED indicator and Automatic Train Stop were tied in to the broken speedometer. The engineer as required by Railroad RULES carried a device to determine the speed of the train via wayside mile markers. The Amtrak employee time table states which mile markers are EXACTLY a mile apart (some can be off up to 600ft). This engineer had a stop watch that converted seconds to miles per hour (he did not have to do it manualy as in the old days).
He took the train up to 125mph on the broken speedometer and then pushed it, the overspeed warning sounded and the other speedometer still said he had 5mph to go until 125mph. All in all upon checking with his stop watch the overspeed speedometer was off by at least 5mph. At least with the overspeed warning, he has 3 to 4 mph until the Automatic Train Stop is activated to slow down (the train can actualy continue to accelerate).
I can only hope this dosen't happen with the Wheel Detectors and the signal department is up to keeping them working right. Well the signals for most part work right....
Did you know that the wheel detector system can be bypassed on the tower control machine? That's right. The wheel detector system is a good system and is probably the best method to have continuous train control without cab signaling. The sets of wheel detectors detectors a single axle traveling from one head to the other. Knowing the distance between the heads and the time it takes to get from one to the other, then the speed can be calculated. If the train operates within the required speed then the trip stays retained. If the train overspeeds, then the trip retaining circuit is broken causing the trip to go the danger.
The Harmon vital microprocessor is nothing more than a calculator. Not very complicated. It's the ancilliary functions that make it complicated and this is done with good old dependable vital relays.
In my engineer training class, a stopwatch was never utilized as the special instructions timetable has a speed table concerning measured miles but the principle was the same. In the Bergen Tunnels, you were required to time your movement from MP 1 to just past the Weehawken shafts, which was MP 2. The spped limit was 60 to you expected to run the mile in exactly one minute. 59.02 mph=1 min 1 sec and 61.02mph = 59 seconds. Anyway back to the wheel detectors, what would happen to an IRT drag going through the wheel detectors at Pacific or Court St? I would assume they might cause the wheel detectors to trip the train as the axles are closer together on the R-36s and the detectors installed were meant for R-32s. In this case can the R-68s cheat an extra mile per hour because of their axle arrangments. My main concern would be for the train operator who is operating an IRT interdivisional drag and his speedometer is reading the speed limit posted on the fixed WD signal while the WD signal might indicate an overspeed condition and possibly trip the train. By the way for all T/Os I found out from TSS AND Signal Dept. that the time, date, MPH and all overspeed conditions whether the trains are tripped or not are recorded digitally by the system itself. I haven't heard whether these tapes are used to the extent that black boxes on aircraft or locomotives are after incidents but you are now informed.
The length of the timing section is 4 feet. That means that the wheel detector heads are 4 feet apart. When an axle is detected at the first head then the microprocessor will look for the same axle at the second head later in time. The axle will pass the first head and then the system will wait for that same axle to show up at the second head. Knowing the distance is 4 feet and the time it took the same axle to travel the 4 feet then the speed can be calculated. You can figure that out. The 4 feet is derived to be less than the distance between wheel base of the shortest rail car truck.
GET IT NOW. The type of equipment, R-68 or workcars, etc, used is not revelant to detecting speed.
Don't be afraid to challenge Mr. Train Control.
What is being used to sense the passage of an axle, Inductive,
optical, mechanical, etc?
It's magnetic.
It was a reaction by the TA for the WillyB collision a few years ago. The NTSB was involved too. The philosophy now is slower is safer. There are wheel detectors availiable at Canal St. on the A/C/E, but never used because they would realistically bring the RR to a halt. I don't say I agree or disagree, but that is the way it seems to be right now.
Overreaction is a better word, IMHO. I suppose that WDs are fine for blind curves and such, but straightaways? Maybe it's just as well the R-10s are no longer with us. The thought of them crawling along makes me ill.
In the NY Post Sunday October 3, pages 2 and 3, is a article on ''How to put full second ave. line on track. Also there is a article about ''Half-measures won't do for a project critical to the future of NY'' pages 2 and 3 of the NY Post Sunday October 3.
After the good folks read the article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
Post Online Edition has three articles:
http://www.nypostonline.com/tindex.htm
They have the right ideas -- higher fares and tolls at rush hour (on all Manhattan approaches), hiring one company to build the thing instead of getting repeatedly raped on every contract, and letting corporations name the stations in exchange for building them.
It's not often the Post has the right ideas.
Yes, and they should raise the parking tax to 19% and the cost of parking meters. They should raise the fines for traffic infractions and have sadistic crackdowns on motorists, for stopping, standing, blocking the box and honking your horn in Manhattan. Tow more violators and double the cost of getting your car back from the pound. Another thing I would do is charge non handicapped city employees for their parking permits. Take $100-200 a year out of their salary for the right to such exclusive parking; other wise they can take the subway like everybody else. By the way I'm not against giving city employees a break on a monthly metrocard. Combign these ideas with raising the tolls and there could be a lot of money for new transit. Not to mention the taxes from the increased property value along the new line(s).
(City employees parking).
You bring up a sore point. DCP research (unpublished) shows that 14 percent of the cars entering Manhattan have a permit to park on the street. There are spaces reserved for high and not-so-high officials all over Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn, along with many neighborhoods. In poor neighborhoods, the school staff parks in the playground and the kids have no where to pay.
Meanwhile, not only will the city not pay for ever part of a Metrocard through the TransitChek program (many private employers pay for the whole thing), they have refused to even all city employees to buy them oursevles with pre-tax dollars. I'm told negotiations on the subject broke down because the city demanded unversal drug testing in return.
I say make all those employees who are permitted to park piss in a cup.
Yes, I say tax them some how. Make them pay for parking and take the money to subsidse the subway. Or to cover the cover a break on the cost of a metrocard for a vast majoity of lower level employees and teachers.
[Meanwhile, not only will the city not pay for ever part of a Metrocard through the TransitChek program (many private employers pay for the whole thing), they have refused to even all city
employees to buy them oursevles with pre-tax dollars. I'm told negotiations on the subject broke down because the city demanded unversal drug testing in return.]
Only a government could come up with something so boneheadedly ridiculous.
WHY??
Drivers are people too and have rights!!!
Yes, drivers have rights, but the right to drive a private automobile (if such a thing exists) does not negate the need to pay for the roads, bridges, and other government services provided to automobiles and their owners. I have the right to own land, but I am also assessed property tax to pay for the operation of local governments that serve that land.
The streets and bridges aren't "free" -- someone has to pay for them. And the streets include curbside parking: the city has to keep this area of the street paved and clean just as much as the driving lanes. So it's only fair to charge people who use these public benefits for the costs of those benefits.
Actually most states state the driving is a privliledge and not a write and the Supremem Court Backed this Up
10/03/99
When we think of Jackie Gleason and his array of unusual characters,Ralph Kramden comes to mind. The popular Honeymooners series not only exploited Ralph's life and times but also mirrored his younger years growing up on Chauncey Street. Jackie had a hard life growing up in the depression 30's and some of that appeared on his Honeymooner skits. When Jackie was young his alcoholic father had a tendency to leave and return home at will. One day he never returned and left Jackie an only child to be reared by his mother Mae in their Chauncey street flat. The following two paragraphs are from the James Bacon paperback entitled "How sweet it is",and will surprise some of you of some bit of transit in his early years:
"I was never angry about Pop leaving us. I figured there must be something between him and Mom that I didn't know about. He was always okay with me. He had a great sense of humor,that I do remember. If he had just dropped by once. Just once.
Mae was too proud to take relief,as welfare assistance was called in those days,although she was deserving of it. Instead she took a job as a token clerk on the subway that ran between Brooklyn and Manhattan - the BMT. It was a tough job working in that cage,unheated in the winter and sweltering in the summer. Jackie remembers his mother going to work in the winter with blankets she could wrap around her legs. All the other guys in our block used to play a game jumping over the turnstiles to beat the BMT out of a nickel. I couldn't do that,knowing what my mom went through on that job".
And then tragedy struck young Jackie and the BMT came to the rescue.
"There was no insurance,which meant that Mae would have to be buried in potter's field,the biblical term for a pauper's graveyard. How she would have hated that. But,miracles of miracles,when the folks at the BMT heard of their former co-worker's death,they collected two hundred and fifty dollars to bury her.Thank God for the BMT. Jackie had no money,but his Aunt Maggie gave him five dollars to buy some flowers for his mother's coffin - "From your loving son,Jackie".
This book is probably out of print,but for your info:
St.Martin's Press
175 Fifth Ave.
New York,NY 10010
ISBN# 0-312-90229-8
(c) 1985
Bill Newkirk
Thanks for sharing the great picture Jeff.
I have not seen this one before. I have seen the one with Ralph, Allice, Norton and Trixie Do you have that one?
One of the VPs here drove that bus ... he has two photos on the wall, one with Ralph & one of him.
COOL DIGS!!!
That is interesting. I did not know Gleason's bio. Although, I do know that he came from Brooklyn.
In a post a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that the fictional Cramden, (who was a motorman or condutor instead of a bus driver), was really the son of the Malbone St motorman.
Anyway, New York is filled with those stories.
It was always rough for a lot of kids growing up in New York, many of whom, went on to some major and minor successes in life. For almost all of us, the NYC transit system was a real necessity, when the place you had to go to was out of walking distance. Some times, a dime or a 15 cent piece (a token or 2) for round trip fare was a little hard to come by.
[In a post a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that the fictional Cramden, (who was a motorman or condutor instead of a bus driver), was really the son of the Malbone St motorman.]
Hmmmm ... coulda been. Figure that Ralph Cramden would've been born sometime around 1920. Edward Luciano was born in 1894 or 1895. It works out :-)
But wasn t Cramdon Irish, and Luciano Italian(Any relation to Charley)
Wow! I never knew that about Gleason's early life in Brooklyn. Seems he had the "transit bug" since a child?
I always knew however that he grew up in Bed-Stuy. As a matter of fact since the "Honeymooners" was set in Bensonhurst there is a technical blooper on the show: Gleason used his childhood address of Chauncey St. even though it is located in Bedford-Stuyvesant!
Doug aka BMTman
10/03/99
The Chauncey St. address is really located in Bushwick. For the show they used the location Bensonhurst because they felt it sounded funnier than Bushwick.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks, Bill. I recall Chauncey Street well, since I once dated a young lady (back in my youth) who lived on the street, but in the second block of the street which definitely was in Bed-Stuy (her house was almost across from Boys and Girls H.S.)
BTW, it looks like Jackie Gleason's transit-related life came full-circle when the Fifth Avenue Bus Depot (adjacent to the 36th Street BMT maintenance yard) was renamed Jackie Gleason Depot (I think this happenned about 10 years ago). I believe there is even a "Honeymooners" type logo on the buses that originate from there.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually I would call it Bed/Stuy. I always thought someplace had to be north of Bway to be considered part of Bushwick.
I never knew about Gleason's mom working for the BMT, but I did know that Phil Rizzuto's father was a BMT trolley motorman...(in fact Scooter got to save trolley fare because his dad worked on the run that went to his high school...). He mustve gotten laid off during the unification, because when the intitial draft was started up in 1941, Phil was exempt being the sole support of his family.....
Yesterday, we attended the meeting of the NJT group in Jersey City, N.J. We listened to talks by transit people, assemblywomen, etc. The last speech was extremely intersting by "Al", who explained the whole
system in a nutshell to us. Everybody was justly proud of their work and efforts. It is a system to be proud of, for sure. Development is
springing up all around the line, as what happens with most transit ventures.
At the conclusion of the meeting , we drove to the Communipaw yard and shops. We were able to view cars in storage , and take a 3 mile ride on one of the new trains. The cars are very smooth accel/decell
and otherwise. Interiors are done in grey and blue. We then went up to the Command Center in the Communipaw building and were given some talks by assorted personal. What you have is an up-to-date well run system that has prepared for everything. One example is that if the main computer is down , the car can still run itself, throwing switches, etc.
I was very impressed, and wish the planners and team great sucess with this venture.
Chuck Greene
Ever since the Type 8s came out, perhaps a few good suggestions for the future Type 9 car.
#1) Retain low-floor, but add the ability to kneel to eliminate the need for wheelchair ramps.
#2) Make these Type 9 cars a la CBTC on the R-143s.
#3) To give the T a better image about how it cares about transit availability on the E branch, place all Type 9 cars exclusively to the E line. Upgrade E line track to CBTC.
#3a) This would work much better if the T cares and reopens Arborway branch of the E, with much more service, exclusively run by Type 9s.
Just giving my 2 tokens worth,
Nick
Well Nick, all that would sure be nice! Maybe we can have a race to see which is open first... E line to Arborway (with Type-9s) or the NYC 2nd Ave Subway!!
The ideal car is simple, thus impossible to build in todays technology era!
Best Type series car: The Type 5!
Gerry
If all goes to plan, I'll be coming to town on Saturday for another solo railfan trip.
I'll try to tackle the SIR, Rockaway and Queens Blvd lines and finaly do the Brighton and Sea Beach(which I haven't gotten to, quite yet).
And, hopefully, the Franklin Shuttle will be complete and I can do the refurbished Willy-B.
A friend said he saw a train up there before. I'll go check and post my findings.........Mark
NOT YET... A test train was recently there, though. It is supposed to open this week. Any further info is welcome........Mark
As I have previously posted, I believe the target date for the return of revenue service is Wednesday, October 6. I plan to leave an extra hour earlier to work to see if it is opened and do a "test run" of my own.
Doug aka BMTman
I'll be sure to get it if it's open October 9th. I wonder
if they'll surprise us all and run different cars on the
line(not gonna happen, but it would be fun, no?).
BTW, Check out version 2.0 of HREF="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Factory/2538/">Su
bway Steve's homepage.
Sorry about the HTML. My cat wants attention.
Steve, I checked out your site, it is very good!!!
Maybe they will run R1-9 or a Triplex, I remember back in the early 50s they used to layup a 5 car articulated train does anyone remember. That is where I remember the 7 Line, or maybe it was 8000. 40 plus years ago. Fred do you remember?
The Zephyr (Stainless Steel 1934 Budd Experimental) did regular service on the Franklin Shuttle for a while.
Right, Paul. I vote that they get the remaing R-11 at the Transit Museuem, up and running for the first day of service (You know I'm whistlin' Dixie here, right?)
Just a quick daydream.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks Paul, I knew I was remembering correctly, and they had the head sign 7 Franklin/Fulton St Green Green Lights
Did the [R11s?] say Franklin/Fulton? I don't recall. Any signage I remember just said "Franklin Avenue" which was a kind of misnomer, since every station on the line is walking distance from Franklin Avenue.
The northernmost station should actually be called "Fulton Street."
It runs alongside Franklin Ave, but if you remember the original el turned off the Fulton St El and the stations were named Franklin Ave.
From 1940 to 1942 both the Zephyr and the Green Hornet covered the Franklin Shuttle. After the Green Hornet went off to war the Zephyr #7029 continued to serve until August 4,1954.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Let's Go Mets!!!
METS METS METS METS METS METS METS MMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTSSSSS!
Yea baby!!. Now if we can just whip the Reds tomorrow. Keep your fingers crossed guys and keep the good thoughts coming.
I would like to see a subway series. I have a old T shirt from Billy Martin Days that show a 4 Train and a 7 Train crashing into each other. If it happens I would love a T shirt . Modells had something like a subway series T shirt on sale when I was there in June, but it was for the inter league games.
Hmmm, I wonder who'd get the worst of a direct collision, a WF R3336 or an R62 ...
If I were appointed Supreme Dictator of Chicago for a lifelong term (a position Hizzoner Maredaley currently occupies), here's what I'd do to improve the city's rapid transit network:
Get out your CTA maps to follow along...
GENERAL:
1. Restore late-night "owl" service on all rapid transit lines.
2. Add 2 additional tracks as needed on the Red and Blue lines to accommodate true express service, much like the NYC system. Express trains would make limited stops during the day on weekdays, and possibly on weekends for special events downtown during the summer. Local trains would make all stops at all times.
3. Install ATC on all lines, similar to MARTA and the Washington Metro.
4. Except for the already-new Orange Line, rebuild all infrastructure not otherwise impacted by the David Cole Plan. New stations would be fully ADA-compliant, and adopt similar design guidelines as the stations on the Washington Metro system. (Example: No structural columns within 10 feet of platform edges, etc.) Stations would have consistent signage, and the architecture of each station would reflect Chicago's heritage as the world mecca for modern architecture.
5. Lengthen all platforms to accommodate 10-car trains.
ROLLING STOCK:
New trains would be made up of articulated 5-car units, featuring full ATC, carpeting and padded seats, and electronic destination signs.
CUSTOMER SERVICE:
Employees would be required to attend customer service “boot camp”, receiving training similar to what retail employees are required to receive. All customer complaints would be permanently filed. Employees who receive excessive complaints would be put on probation and possibly terminated. Employees who receive customer compliments will receive special recognition and / or financial bonuses.
RED / YELLOW / PURPLE LINES:
1. The Yellow and Purple Lines would be consolidated into the Red Line. The Dempster terminal on the former Yellow Line would become the terminal of the Red Line express trains, while the Linden terminal on the former Purple Line would become the terminal for the Red Line local trains. Some local trains would also terminate at Howard, as Evanston doesn't require as frequent service.
2. Re-route the Red Line so that it goes into a subway just north of Irving Park. The subway would run under Clark Street until just south of Lincoln Avenue, at which point it would swing east under Lincoln Park and head south under State Street to Division, where it would re-join its original route. This would straighten out a few sharp curves, as well as more adequately serve the densely populated lakefront neighborhoods. (Ever try to ride the 151 bus at rush hour?) In addition, the Dan Ryan leg would be extended to 108th / Stony Island. Local trains would make all stops (generally at every half-mile street), while express trains would stop at Dempster (transfer to new Yellow Line -- see below) Howard, Wilson, Belmont, Armitage, Chicago, Grand (transfer to new Purple Line), Washington, Jackson, Roosevelt, 35th, 75th (transfer to new Yellow Line), 95th, and 108th.
BLUE LINE:
Local tracks would continue on the existing right-of way. Due to space limitations on the elevated portion between Logan Square and Division, express tracks would split off just south of Logan Square and continue under Milwaukee Avenue until Division, where they would rejoin the existing right-of-way. Local trains make all stops; express trains stop at O'Hare, Rosemont, Comberland, Jefferson Park (Yellow Line, Brown Line transfer), Logan Square, Damen, Clark / Lake, Washington, Jackson, Clinton, Halsted, Cicero (Yellow Line transfer), and Forest Park.
GREEN LINE:
Add stops at Western, Damen, Halsted, Cermak, 18th and 27th. Transfer to new Yellow Line at Cicero.
ORANGE LINE:
Extend line south from Midway to Ford City. Transfer to new Yellow Line at Midway and Ford City.
BROWN LINE:
Re-routed between Division and Addison. The new right-of-way would be roughly along Clybourn Avenue to Ravenswood Avenue where it would rejoin the existing route just south of Addison. This would provide rapid transit access to the rapidly-growing Clybourn Corridor, while also eliminating a number of sharp curves on the line. The line would also be extended west along Lawrence Avenue to Jefferson Park, providing transfer to the Blue Line and new Yellow Line and giving North Siders a much easier way to get to O'Hare.
NEW PURPLE LINE:
A new rapid transit line from the vicinity of Brickyard Mall at Fullerton and Narragansett, running along a right-of-way roughly aligned with Grand Avenue to Wabash, at which point it would turn south and head through downtown in a new subway. South of downtown, the line would shift over to the lakefront and share the IC right-of-way to a new terminal at the former South Works site at 87th / Mackinaw. Stops would be generally at every half-mile street along Grand, State - Wabash (transfer to Red and Silver Lines), Washington, Jackson and at major cross-streets along the IC right-of-way. IC trains on the south side would then run express between 63rd and downtown, while Milwaukee District West Line trains on the west side would run express between Glenwood and downtown.
NEW YELLOW LINE:
A new crosstown express / local line beginning at the Dempster terminal on the Red Line, and running roughly along or under Cicero Avenue until Ford City where it would turn east along 75th and terminate at the new South Works Terminal. Local stops would be generally at every half-mile street; express stops would be Dempster (transfer to Red Line), Jefferson Park (Blue, Brown Lines), Grand (Purple Line), Lake (Green Line), Congress (Blue Line), Cermak (Blue Line), Midway (Orange Line), Ford City (Orange Line), Dan Ryan (Red Line), and South Works (Purple Line).
NEW SILVER LINE:
A new lakefront subway connecting the major destinations in and around the downtown area. Begins at Navy Pier, heads west under Grand (transfer at Grand / Wabash to Red and Purple Lines), then turning south and sharing the right-of-way with the new Purple Line, making express stops at Washington, Jackson, Museum Campus, Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park and South Works.
DOWNTOWN / LOOP:
New, larger stations built on the Dearborn, State and Wabash subways at Washington and Jackson (Monroe stop eliminated), as well as corresponding new stations on the Wabash el. Stations would be linked via underground concourses under Washington, Madison, Adams and Jackson to provide free transfers between all lines.
SOUTH WORKS:
Not really part of the transit plan, but as Mayor this would be one of my pet projects: A new urban amusement park on the lakefront at the abandoned South Works site. Similar in nature to Chicago's old Riverview Park or New York's Coney Island. Yellow Line, Purple Line and Silver Line would terminate here, providing access to South Works Park from all areas of the city.
Don't applaud, just throw money. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
David -
I enjoyed reading your proposal. What seems to be missing from your list of lines is a line which would connect to the West Loop Metra station (Union Station and the Ogilvie Transp. Center, formerly known as NorthWestern Station).
My proposal, instead of trying to rebuild all of the Chicago 'L' system, would be to add a single new line (you may pick whatever color you want for it). It would run basically along the ICRR/Metra Electric right of way, and replace the the Metra commuter service with more frequent 'L' service on the South Chicago branch and on the main line as far south as 115/Kensington. 115/Kensington could be rebuilt to include, in additon to the 'L' line terminal, an Amtrak station, and an expanded Metra station (expanded to 3 or 4 tracks), as well as a Greyhound bus station, to make it a major transportation hub/transfer point.
In Chicago, it would continue North past Randolph St. the the Streeterville area north of the Chicago river via a new subway, with stops to serve Navy Pier and the Northwestern Medical Center, as well as the North Michigan Ave. area.
A branch would run east-west along Monroe St to Canal/Monroe, which would connect via a new pedestrian subway to Union Station and Ogilvie Transportation Center. (possible future extension of this line westward to serve Greektown and the United Center) The junction at Monroe would be a 'Y' type junction, allowing routings from Canal/Monroe to both Navy Pier area as well as to the South Side.
-- Ed Sachs
"Restore late-night 'owl' service on all rapid transit lines."
I can definitely see restoring it on the Purple (Northwestern students coming into the city at all hours) and on the Brown as a Kimball-Belmont shuttle. It doesn't make as much sense for the Green Line because it's always paralleled by lines with 24-hour service. The Orange line has never had owl service and doesn't really need it because its main purpose is to serve Midway Airport, and the airport closes late at night, IIRC. Mind you, if the airport were open 24 hours a day, I'd say that the Orange should get owl service.
The CTA owl service on the trains is not that bad. Between the Blue and the Red lines, most of the city that is readily accessible to L service during the day also has night service. The North, South, West and Northwest Sides all have 24-hour L service. What DOES suck is the CTA owl **bus** service. The night bus service is truly a skeleton of the day service in most neighborhoods, and people who only have to walk two blocks to a bus during the day can easily have to walk eight blocks at night.
"Add 2 additional tracks as needed on the Red and Blue lines to accommodate true express service, much like the NYC system. Express trains would make limited stops during the day on weekdays, and possibly on weekends for special events downtown during the summer. Local trains would make all stops at all times."
I like this idea, were the money available. I've always thought there should be an express service to O'Hare. There are already four tracks for the Red Line as far as Fullerton if you also run the Yellow and Purple in with the Red as you propose. By alternating Red trains so that expresses operate via the subway while locals use the L, no new subway tunnel would be needed. Adding tracks on the expressways (Dan Ryan, Eisenhower, and Kennedy) is relatively cheap.
Unfortunately, the sticking point is the old Logan Square Met L and the Milwaukee-Dearborn subway on the Blue. Adding extra track here would be murderously expensive. And on the L portion, where houses and businesses practically abut the L structure, it would involve the demolition of hundreds of homes with thousands of people. You would have to be mayor for life to get away with that politically. (^:
"Install ATC on all lines, similar to MARTA and the Washington Metro."
Great if you could retrofit existing cars (and stations: ATC also requires trains to stop at the right point in the station) for ATC. CTA has already shown it *can* be done by retrofitting cab signaling.
"Except for the already-new Orange Line, rebuild all infrastructure not otherwise impacted by the David Cole Plan. New stations would be fully ADA-compliant, and adopt similar design guidelines as the stations on the Washington Metro system."
Not really an overarching need, except of course repairing and maintaining structure in good condition. Diversity of station design is good, so long as the signage is consistent, which it basically already is.
"Lengthen all platforms to accommodate 10-car trains."
Good idea. Relatively easy and cheap at some stations (L and expressway stations) but difficult and expensive at others (subway stations).
"New trains would be made up of articulated 5-car units, featuring full ATC, carpeting and padded seats, and electronic destination signs."
5-car articulated is a bad idea: if one car goes bad for whatever reason, five come out of service, as opposed to two with the present married pairs. I agree with ATC and electronic signs, but carpet will get MURDERED on a system as busy as CTA!
"Employees would be required to attend customer service 'boot camp', receiving training similar to what retail employees are required to receive. All customer complaints would be permanently filed. Employees who receive excessive complaints would be put on probation and possibly terminated. Employees who receive customer compliments will receive special recognition and/or financial bonuses."
Got no disagreements from me here.
"The Yellow and Purple Lines would be consolidated into the Red Line. The Dempster terminal on the former Yellow Line would become the terminal of the Red Line express trains, while the Linden terminal on the former Purple Line would become the terminal for the Red Line local trains. Some local trains would also terminate at Howard, as Evanston doesn't require as frequent service."
I REALLY like this idea!
"Re-route the Red Line so that it goes into a subway just north of Irving Park. The subway would run under Clark Street until just south of Lincoln Avenue, at which point it would swing east under Lincoln Park and head south under State Street to Division, where it would re-join its original route."
Money?
"In addition, the Dan Ryan leg would be extended to 108th / Stony Island. Local trains would make all stops (generally at every half-mile street), while express trains would stop at Dempster ... Howard, Wilson, Belmont, Armitage, Chicago, Grand, ... Washington, Jackson, Roosevelt, 35th, 75th, ...95th, and 108th."
This is a good idea, and totally feasible. An extension as you propose has been considered in various plans for years.
"BLUE LINE: Local tracks would continue on the existing right-of way. Due to space limitations on the elevated portion between Logan Square and Division, express tracks would split off just south of Logan Square and continue under Milwaukee Avenue until Division, where they would rejoin the existing right-of-way. Local trains make all stops; express trains stop at O'Hare, Rosemont, Cumberland, Jefferson Park, ... Logan Square, Damen, Clark/Lake, Washington, Jackson, Clinton, Halsted, Cicero, .... and Forest Park.
I think you've hit it on the head with where express stops should be on the Blue if it were feasible (although I wouldn't skip Monroe.) But money is the problem here again, as referred to above.
"GREEN LINE: Add stops at Western, Damen, Halsted, Cermak, 18th and 27th."
Adding stations at Western or Damen (but not both), Cermak, and (possibly) 27th makes sense. But Halsted is too close to Clinton and 18th seems too close to a hypothetical Cermak station.
"ORANGE LINE: Extend line south from Midway to Ford City."
This is another extension that's been planned for years. Since the hypothetical right of way is basically free of buildings, this should not be unusually expensive or difficult to build.
"BROWN LINE: Re-routed between Division and Addison. The new right-of-way would be roughly along Clybourn Avenue to Ravenswood Avenue where it would rejoin the existing route just south of Addison."
Not really a bad idea, but a Clybourn Avenue line would be somewhat redundant with the Blue line along Milwaukee. And would you absorb the existing closely-spaced Brown stations at Wellington, Diversey, Armitage, and Sedgwick into Red Line service, as they would be bypassed by a Clybourn Cutoff?
"The line would also be extended west along Lawrence Avenue to Jefferson Park, providing transfer to the Blue Line ... and giving North Siders a much easier way to get to O'Hare."
This is one of my "pet" ideas for years, so I agree with this one 100% even though funding might be somewhat difficult.
"A new rapid transit line from the vicinity of Brickyard Mall at Fullerton and Narragansett, running along a right-of-way roughly aligned with Grand Avenue to Wabash, at which point it would turn south and head through downtown in a new subway. South of downtown, the line would shift over to the lakefront and share the IC right-of-way to a new terminal at the former South Works site at 87th/Mackinaw."
As you sort of concede, this would be redundant with the Metra Electric and the Metra Milwaukee West lines. The Milw-W stations that would be skipped are not high-traffic, so the neighborhood may not be able to support a rapid transit line. Of course, the definitive answer would be in the ridership figures for the #65 (Grand) bus route.
"A new crosstown express/local line beginning at the Dempster terminal on the Red Line, and running roughly along or under Cicero Avenue until Ford City where it would turn east along 75th and terminate at the new South Works Terminal. Local stops would be generally at every half-mile street; express stops would be Dempster (transfer to Red Line), Jefferson Park (Blue, Brown Lines), Grand (Purple Line), Lake (Green Line), Congress (Blue Line), Cermak (Blue Line), Midway (Orange
Line), Ford City (Orange Line), Dan Ryan (Red Line), and South Works (Purple Line)."
This is the old Crosstown Line proposal. But is the ridership there? What sort of ridership figures do the Cicero Avenue bus routes have?
"A new lakefront subway connecting the major destinations in and around the downtown area. Begins at Navy Pier, heads west under Grand (transfer at Grand/Wabash to Red and Purple Lines), then turning south and sharing the right-of-way with the new Purple Line, making express stops at Washington, Jackson, Museum Campus, Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park and South Works."
While I've pooh-poohed your other proposals above for truly new transit lines as either redundant or expensive, this one makes good sense. It is a much better and more comprehensive version of the Downtown Circulator light-rail proposal that came and went a few years ago. The problem with a light-rail line is that it would have to fight traffic the same as buses already do. Since I don't favor your Wabash Avenue subway proposal, and my office is in Michigan Avenue, (^: I would propose a subway from a Navy Pier terminal via Grand to Michigan (and a Michigan/Grand station), via Michigan to Randolph/Washington (Cultural Center and the Randplph Street Station), Adams/Jackson (Art Institute), and Harrison/Balbo (the South Michigan Avenue hotels and college buildings), then under Roosevelt to a Museum Campus station, and finally to join the Metra Electric right-of-way to Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park (Museum of Science and Industry), and the terminus at your hypothetical South Works. This line would not replace the IC line but, running alongside it in the same right-of-way, would reduce construction expenses. Connecting major cultural and recreational sites with a single line would increase the funding opportunities and justify federal and state spending on the line in the minds of suburbanites and out-of-towners.
"New, larger stations built on the Dearborn, State and Wabash subways at Washington and Jackson (Monroe stop eliminated), as well as corresponding new stations on the Wabash el. Stations would be linked via underground concourses under Washington, Madison, Adams and Jackson to provide free transfers between all lines."
New and larger stations are always a good idea. (^: Mind you, CTA is working its way down the Red line with remodeling of the sort they did at Roosevelt station. What's wrong with Monroe station? Too many people get on the Blue and Red at their respective Monroe stops to divert them all to Washington and Jackson even if those stations are enlarged for 10-car trains. And experience with overhead "skywalk" systems in some cities shows that people tend to abandon the streets for climate-controlled walkways, with the empty streets leading to downtown looking deserted. Free transfers, beyond those already existing or those made possible by two or more lines having a common station, can be accomplished cheaply and easily with a reprogramming of the Transit Cards to give a free transfer when the card was last used at a rapid transit station and is now being used to enter another station.
"South Works. Not really part of the transit plan, but as Mayor this would be one of my pet projects: A new urban amusement park on the lakefront at the abandoned South Works site. Similar in nature to Chicago's old Riverview Park or New York's Coney Island."
I like it. Really a better location for an amusement park than the location across from Wolf Point that was being discussed a few years ago by Disney. Of course, it would need direct, express train service as you propose: many people are still wary of the South Side and would not go there if they were making frequent local stops.
"Don't applaud, just throw money. :-)"
Lots and lots of money. (^:
5-car articulated is a bad idea: if one car goes bad for whatever reason, five come out of service, as opposed to two with the present married pairs.
There's a trade off here. NYC Transit is moving to link its R-68s and R-68As, as well as the R-62s (and has already done the R-44/46s) into 4 car units permanently linked together. So if one unit goes, 4 cars are removed from service. The plus is that there is savings in equipment because you wouldn't need cab controls (and other equipment) in all 4 cars, just the first and last one for the cab controls. The theory is that a scheduled maintenance system would prevent many of the problems that would force an entire unit out of service because they would be "caught" by following a rigis preventative maintenance schedule.
Does CTA have an SMS program similar to NYC Transit's?
--Mark
It doesn't make as much sense for the Green Line because it's always paralleled by lines with 24-hour service. The Orange line has never had owl service and doesn't really need it because its main purpose is to serve Midway Airport, and the airport closes late at night, IIRC. Mind you, if the airport were open 24 hours a day, I'd say that the Orange should get owl service.
I feel that it's important for people in all neighborhoods to have dependable public transportation around the clock, including those neighborhoods not served by the Red and Blue lines. Having 24-hour rapid transit service would hopefully spur around-the-clock commercial activity in some of the neighborhoods that need it most.
[Regarding express tracks on the Blue Line:]
Unfortunately, the sticking point is the old Logan Square Met L and the Milwaukee-Dearborn subway on the Blue. Adding extra track here would be murderously expensive. And on the L portion, where houses and businesses practically abut the L structure, it would involve the demolition of hundreds of homes with thousands of people. You would have to be mayor for life to get away with that politically.
Hence, the proposal to route the express trains in a subway under Milwaukee Avenue between Logan Square and Division, while the locals continue to use the existing el.
"Except for the already-new Orange Line, rebuild all infrastructure not otherwise impacted by the David Cole Plan. New stations would be fully ADA-compliant, and adopt similar design guidelines as the stations on the Washington Metro system."
Not really an overarching need, except of course repairing and maintaining structure in good condition. Diversity of station design is good, so long as the signage is consistent, which it basically already is.
There are a number of reasons I feel the system needs a complete rebuild, but here are the two I feel most strongly about:
One of my pet issues is ADA compliance... I do volunteer work at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago and have a number of friends who use wheelchairs. Accessible public transit in Chicago is truly a disgrace. Even at the supposedly "accessible" stations, the elevators are usually malfunctioning, and it's very difficult for somebody in a w/c to handle the gap between the platform edge and the train. True, the CTA has "gap bridges" at each station, but this of course depends on finding a CTA employee who is able and willing to assist the passenger. In my experience, most CTA employees would rather sit in their ticket booth and pretend not to see somebody in a wheelchair. The feds would come down with both feet on any private business that treated people with disabilities so shamefully, but since the CTA is a goverment agency I guess they're not obligated to follow the same rules that the rest of us are.
In addition, there are some general safety concerns. Some el stations barely have 24" clearance between the platform edge and the rail or wall, and how this has managed to go uncorrected is beyond me. Personal injury lawyers must be drooling every time they see such a condition on the system.
5-car articulated is a bad idea: if one car goes bad for whatever reason, five come out of service, as opposed to two with the present married pairs. I agree with ATC and electronic signs, but carpet will get MURDERED on a system as busy as CTA!
As I understand it, many cars on the NYC subway system are permanently coupled in 4 or 5-car sets. I'm a bit curious to hear the pros and cons about this issue. Articulated married pairs could be an alternative to this idea.
Also, both the Washington Metro and Atlanta's MARTA system have carpeted cars. Atlanta has a fairly mild climate and MARTA doesn't get very high ridership, but Washington gets a fair amount of snow and fairly high ridership on Metro. How well does the carpet hold up on Metro trains?
"Re-route the Red Line so that it goes into a subway just north of Irving Park. The subway would run under Clark Street until just south of Lincoln Avenue, at which point it would swing east under Lincoln Park and head south under State Street to Division, where it would re-join its original route."
Money?
Details, details...
Besides, as mayor of Chicago I'd be fully aware of the fact that money does indeed grow on trees. :-)
"GREEN LINE: Add stops at Western, Damen, Halsted, Cermak, 18th and 27th."
Adding stations at Western or Damen (but not both), Cermak, and (possibly) 27th makes sense. But Halsted is too close to Clinton and 18th seems too close to a hypothetical Cermak station.
Western and Damen are a full half-mile apart from each other. Halsted and Clinton are closer, but I believe still far enough apart to each have a stop. Clinton serves as a transfer point to the C&NW trains, while the Halsted stop would provide convenient access to the Fulton Market area, which is seeing rpaid residential development. I'm not picky about having a stop at 18th, but a Cermak stop could provide convenient access to McCormick Place and Chinatown.
"BROWN LINE: Re-routed between Division and Addison. The new right-of-way would be roughly along Clybourn Avenue to Ravenswood Avenue where it would rejoin the existing route just south of Addison."
Not really a bad idea, but a Clybourn Avenue line would be somewhat redundant with the Blue line along Milwaukee. And would you absorb the existing closely-spaced Brown stations at Wellington, Diversey, Armitage, and Sedgwick into Red Line service, as they would be bypassed by a Clybourn Cutoff?
Clybourn and Milwaukee are still a fair distance apart, in addition to having the Kennedy Expressway and Chicago River running between them. As for the former stops at Wellington, etc., these would be replaced by my proposed Red Line subway under Clark Street, which would run a few blocks to the east.
"The line would also be extended west along Lawrence Avenue to Jefferson Park, providing transfer to the Blue Line ... and giving North Siders a much easier way to get to O'Hare."
This is one of my "pet" ideas for years, so I agree with this one 100% even though funding might be somewhat difficult.
Another idea that may be worth considering would be having the Lawrence Avenue line running all the way between the Wilson stop on the Red Line (already an express / local stop in my proposal) and Jefferson Park. This would further develop the Wilson stop into a major transit node, providing a much-needed catalyst for development in the Uptown neighborhood. Or possibly some sort of shuttle between the Damen stop on the Brown Line and Wilson, at the minimum.
[Regarding the Grand Avenue subway:]
As you sort of concede, this would be redundant with the Metra Electric and the Metra Milwaukee West lines. The Milw-W stations that would be skipped are not high-traffic, so the neighborhood may not be able to support a rapid transit line. Of course, the definitive answer would be in the ridership figures for the #65 (Grand) bus route.
Maybe, maybe not... I doubt that ridership on the Grand Avenue bus would be a very accurate indicator of the need for a rapid transit line. Many people who would ride a new Grand Avenue subway probably currently take a bus east to the Blue Line or south to the Green line and transfer there, as opposed to taking the 65 bus all the way downtown. A pretty long and inconvenient ride any way you cut it. Actually, it would probably make even more sense to shut down the Lake Street el and re-route it to Grand Avenue, as it would better distribute rapid transit access. Of course, this would be political suicide, and all the recent reconstruction on the Lake el would be for naught.
This is the old Crosstown Line proposal. But is the ridership there? What sort of ridership figures do the Cicero Avenue bus routes have?
Again, we have a similar issue. The people who would most likely ride the crosstown probably don't currently ride the Cicero bus. The crosstown (especially the express) would provide a much-needed way to get between O'Hare and Midway, as well as providing convenient transfers to all the other rapid transit lines without forcing people to ride the L all the way downtown or endure a painfully long and tedious north-south bus ride.
While I've pooh-poohed your other proposals above for truly new transit lines as either redundant or expensive, this one makes good sense. It is a much better and more comprehensive version of the Downtown Circulator light-rail proposal that came and went a few years ago. The problem with a light-rail line is that it would have to fight traffic the same as buses already do. Since I don't favor your Wabash Avenue subway proposal, and my office is in Michigan Avenue, (^: I would propose a subway from a Navy Pier terminal via Grand to Michigan (and a Michigan/Grand station), via Michigan to Randolph/Washington (Cultural Center and the Randplph Street Station), Adams/Jackson (Art Institute), and Harrison/Balbo (the South Michigan Avenue hotels and college buildings), then under Roosevelt to a Museum Campus station, and finally to join the Metra Electric right-of-way to Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park (Museum of Science and Industry), and the terminus at your hypothetical South Works. This line would not replace the IC line but, running alongside it in the same right-of-way, would reduce construction expenses. Connecting major cultural and recreational sites with a single line would increase the funding opportunities and justify federal and state spending on the line in the minds of suburbanites and out-of-towners.
The only reason I picked Wabash was because it would provide for a much shorter hike for people transferring to the other rapid transit lines. Somebody transferring from the Wabash line to the Dearborn subway would already have to walk two blocks.
New and larger stations are always a good idea. (^: Mind you, CTA is working its way down the Red line with remodeling of the sort they did at Roosevelt station. What's wrong with Monroe station? Too many people get on the Blue and Red at their respective Monroe stops to divert them all to Washington and Jackson even if those stations are enlarged for 10-car trains. And experience with overhead "skywalk" systems in some cities shows that people tend to abandon the streets for climate-controlled walkways, with the empty streets leading to downtown looking deserted. Free transfers, beyond those already existing or those made possible by two or more lines having a common station, can be accomplished cheaply and easily with a reprogramming of the Transit Cards to give a free transfer when the card was last used at a rapid transit station and is now being used to enter another station.
The current renovations on the Red Line are mostly superficial cosmetic changes; like putting new wallpaper on a condemned building IMO.
Point taken about the Monroe stop; no reason it couldn't be retained.
Regarding the underground concourses, they would be completely within the fare-controlled zone -- basically just larger and nicer-looking versions of the transfer tunnels that already exisit between the State and Dearborn subways. Moving walkways similar to those used at O'Hare would also be a nice plus.
"South Works. Not really part of the transit plan, but as Mayor this would be one of my pet projects: A new urban amusement park on the lakefront at the abandoned South Works site. Similar in nature to Chicago's old Riverview Park or New York's Coney Island."
I like it. Really a better location for an amusement park than the location across from Wolf Point that was being discussed a few years ago by Disney. Of course, it would need direct, express train service as you propose: many people are still wary of the South Side and would not go there if they were making frequent local stops.
Anything built (or even touched, for that matter) by Disney is about 180 degrees removed from what I had in mind for South Works. What makes places such as Coney Island (and Chicago's old Riverview) so special is that they are decidedly un-corporate and allow for the kind of spontaneity that the sanitized suburban theme parks tend to frown upon. Yes, they're a bit raw and gritty, but that's part of the appeal. I'll take Coney Island over Six Flags any day of the week.
I'm not sure if it would even be possible to re-create a Coney Island or Riverside today, but it would certainly be worth a shot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Are there any "official" plans for South Works now?
The only plans I'm aware of now are for some sort of light industrial park on the southern portion of the site. However, the size of the South Works site is immense, and could easily accomidate a wide variety of uses.
The portion I had in mind for the amusement park would be at the northern portion of the site, roughly between 79th and 85th Streets. The existing beach at Rainbow Park would be continued around the site. Other features of the park would include a boardwalk, a large public pier, a midway carnival, numerous rides and possibly a marina. Of course the rides would have to include at least a couple of kick-ass roller coasters. :-) The city streets would continue into the park itself, hopefully along with retail and commercial development. A ferry could even offer service to and from Navy Pier during the summer. Admission to the park itself would be free; tickets could be purchased for individual rides and attractions.
Very similar in nature to Coney Island or Chicago's old Riverview.
The rapid transit terminal would be at the southwest corner of the park, where the now-defunct EJ&E tracks enter the site. These tracks connect to the IC South Chicago tracks by means of a short right-of-way, currently abandoned and overgrown.
"Make no little plans..." -- Daniel H. Burnham
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
10/03/99
Yesterday on a gorgeou day,I spent the day with two friends chasing by car the special consist of 5 Bombardier cars,2 ex-Phoebe Snow observation cars and 2 simply beautifully repainted FL-9's in the classic New York Central lightning stripe livery. This was brought about to commemerate the 150th anniversary of railroad service to Peekskill,New York.
If you were there to photograph,videotape or witness poetry in motion let's hear from you. Let's hear your thoughts and suggestions. They will most likely be on display for the Harmon Open House on the October 16th. And if you were moved as well as I was,then voice your suggestion for a fantrip or two along with photo stops and video runbys.
Bill Newkirk
Be cool if they have them open inside for cab shots. I'm sick of it always being one of those boring P-32s....
I Hope Metro North Keeps them and the New Haven F 9s for a few more years. Now we need is LIRR to get a old Fairbank Morse, paint it gray and number itg 2001, and Bring Back the GGI to Penn Station
Ah yes the C-Liners ... I like them a lot & have several on my HO layout, but in NH vs. LIRR paint.
Mr t__:^)
New Haven always had a great paint scheme. The Gray LIRR was always blah. And then there was the Tuscan on the Pennsy
Too bad they didn't borrow an E-9 from Metra and repaint that in Lightning Stripes. It would have looked a lot like the E-8s and more authentic than a FL-9.
Bill, I would attend such a fan trip. Have never rode a Harlem or Hudson so either trip would be just fine with me.
Mr t__:^)
Hudson is more scenic, make sure they clean the windows so you can see out of them
Please don't all pounce on me at once but what is all the whoopla about with the Franklin Shuttle?
It is a decrepid old 4 station line, one of the most crime infested lines in the city. (Why I don't know, there are other lines with less crime going through rougher neighborhoods that hav more crime) I have to admit, I used to ride on it when it had BMT Standards, but only for the train. It does have historical significance, such as the Malbone wreck and its connection with the Fulton El, but almost any line in the city has historical significance. I would miss the Sneidiker Av El more than the shuttle.
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To each his own, Sarge.
You share Stan Fischler's opinion, it would seem. You and he must have a different perspective on what makes a line interesting.
Though I haven't ridden it in years, I find the Franklin Shuttle a fascinating line for a few reasons.
It is drenched in history. Not only the Malbone Street wreck. It contains the oldest piece of more-or-less original right-of-way in the city of any length. Until the rehab, it had three original elevated stations. It is one of the few backyard operations in the city. It has one of the few actual railroad-style tunnel portals in the city. (I can't think of another, but I suppose there might be some on the IRT).
Since it wasn't rebuilt in the Dual Contracts, it shows us what the Prospect Park-Church Avenue part of the Brighton used to look like.
Until recently it contained visible remnants of the original line to Bedford Terminal.
I don't know whether I'll be delighted or shocked when I see the rebuild.
BTW, what kind of crime does the line experience?
I'm with you Paul. The line has more historical significance than any other part of the system.
BTW, as for the crime problem, it was fare-beating if I am correct. (In off-hours the Franklin Shuttle was rather desolate). I know there are worst lines as far as violent crimes are concerned (and I bet most of those are IRT lines).
Doug aka BMTman
My home line being the Brighton, this last connection to the old history of it all. Yes there are faster, brighter, tighter, actioner lines all over the city. But the Prospect Shuttle it is pure History to me.
Heck new history, a line that is single tracked on the NYC Subway system....
10/04/99
Paul (Matus),
What was this line to Bedford Terminal you mentioned? I am curious about this.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, Bedford Terminal was the original northern terminal of The Brighton Beach Line from steam days until the line was connected with the Fulton Street L.
The location of the terminal (south side of Atlantic Avenue, east of the elevated structure) was still unbuilt on as recently as 20 years ago or so, the site of a used car dealership. A surface track could still be seen east of the current structure leading to this location, possibly as late as the current rebuild.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing really against the line. I even used to ride 'em for the BMT Standards years ago. I just meant I was wondering why all the fanfare on this forum about the reopening of a 4 station, non-scenic line. If you read the postings it seems many of the posters consider the rebuilding of the Franklin as second only to the milenium!!!
As I said, Jeffrey, to each his own.
But the Franklin Shuttle is one of a kind on the system. I think most people could appreciate it for its uniqueness.
If you want scenic, forget about the subway system, ride a train to Albany.
Thank you, Paul. Well put.
BTW, any chance you might take a spin on the new Franklin Shuttle?
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Doug, how are you doing? I've been following the talk about the Franklin Shuttle recently. I don't think I've heard much about why there still is a Franklin Avenue Shuttle. If I'm not mistaken, there was a lot of community outrage at the possibility of not rebuilding the shuttle. I realize that this is a sensitive issue, but in all our talk here, have we spoken much about the people who use it and the politics of what kept it open and whether it is does serve a vital purpose? I think the whole people issue is important, because the people are the reason our big electric train set is here.
Yes, a coalition of the people of Crown Heights and Bed-Stuy actually prevailed over the system in the case of the Franklin Shuttle.
And to those who feel that a bus route could do what the shuttle has done misses the point: the Franklin gave commuters a DIRECT connection between the Fulton IND and the BMT Brighton Line. And now, it's usefullness is more evident with the creation of a walkway from the Shuttle to the IRT Franklin Ave. station. So that one route now connects all of the original subway systems. I think it was worth saving.....and not just for selfish railfan reasons ;-)
There's another reason why the Franklin Shuttle should have been (and was) rebuilt rather than shut down. Closing it would have meant that NYC had the only rail transit system in the country that was *contracting* let alone expanding. That would have been shameful.
Plus neighborhood demographics or other conditions (like, say, unsafe bridges) can change over the years, making the shuttle potentially more useful to others in the future.
When a line is gone, it's gone for good -- if they had kept the Culver Shuttle open, with the current Manhattan Bridge problems, the MTA could have reverse routed it to connect the West End line up with the F at Ditmas and run the B via the Rutgers Tunnel. That's impossible now, so if the bridge does have to be closed without notice in the near future, the West End line would probably be cut back to a 36th St.-Stillwell shuttle.
By keeping the Franklin shuttle open Brighton riders will have at least a couple of transfer options if any bridge closure occurs.
Doug: I understand that there will now be a free transfer between the IRT and BMT at Franklin Av and Eastern Parkway. There was a passageway built between these two stations back in 1918 when Botanical Gardens replaced Consumer's Park. The passageway ran from an unused mezzanine above the west end of the Franklin Av (IRT) to the mezzanine level of the Botanical Garden (BMT)Station.For some reason the passageway has never been used. Do you know if this was used or if they made the transfer by some other way?
BTW thank you for your running updates on the Franklin Av reconstruction.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I never knew about this 1918 walkway between the IRT and the BMT. Perhaps Paul Matus can lend a hand here?
And BTW, thanks for your compliments.
Doug aka BMTman
Not sure I've heard of an old passageway.
Should be pretty easy to check out, though.
Paul: My information is that the untiled pasageway could be seen through holes in the ceiling at the west end of the IRT platforms and through a grating in the wall of the BMT mezzaine. This was as late as 1964 so some of these traces may had been eliminated but the passageway would remain intact.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Not being from Brooklyn how far apart are the two stations actually?
I'd say the walk between Botanic Gardens and the IRT station is somewhat like walking from 5th Avenue Flushing Line through the corridor to 42nd St. BDFQ.
Paul: Thanks. I do plan on going there when they re-open the line,hopefully next week.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What was actually built under dual contracts:
A mezzanine above the IRT tracks at the western end of the Franklin Av IRT station, including a stair to each platform. This mezzanine is approximately the same elevation as the Botanic Garden Platform and was intended for the transfer. On the BMT side, firstly they moved the station up to Eastern Parkway, and built the first ten feet or so of the passageway from the Bot Gdn mezzanine level (one flight up from the IRT mez level) out to the building line on Eastern Pkwy. The fineal 40 feet or so was never excavated (and would have required a flight of stairs). This stub passageway was uncovered and removed during the rehab. The new passageway extends from the north end of the northbound BMT platform directly to the IRT mezzanine. There are only a couple of steps at the end (plus the steps from the mezzanine to the IRT). It is really quite short, tho it has a kink in it to avoid removing a landmark tree on Eastern Pkwy (which has been permanently braced up also by the rehab--50 years from now, when the tree is long gone, no one will have any idea why the tunnel bends). The IRT mezzanine had been used for many years as District 32 Transit Police, which has moved to a building on Carroll street adjacent to the shuttle ROW. The mezzanine will also provide a useful additional way to cross between IRT platforms (eg for people who backride during service disrputions or diversions, or who travel from the Nostrand to New Lots Lines). It is a fairly large mezzanine--a good portion of it will still be walled off as office space.
Peter; Thanks for the info. You added quite a lot to the information that I had.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/07/99
I read an earlier post about pushing back to reopen date of the line to Dec.31. Is this becasue the transfer passageway is not complete? But that shouldn't be a reason to delay reopening the whole line!
Bill Newkirk
Bill and all concerned: from what I heard -- and this is only a rumor (and not from my ususal source, BTW) -- there are indications that the work on the line was not up to par in some locations (I don't even know if it was track work, electrical, or structural). Let's hope this is only a rumor and is not the fact. :-(
I wonder if anyone else here has heard anything along those lines?
I hope to hear more by early next week.
Doug aka BMTman
I just saw the G.O. list for the current week, and the Franklin Shuttle is still lised as "Till Further Notice"
Yeah, it's depressing.
Let us know if you hear something positive.
Doug aka BMTman
The two lines and their respective stations are at right angles to one another, but I'd guess that at their closest ends the stations are approximtely a half block from each other.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Thank you. The only place I know above ground in that area is the north end of Prospect Park near the Dung Museum.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I took that shuttle bus during the infamous flooding in late August and it took 20 minutes to get to Fulton Street from Prospect Pk. What does the shuttle take, 6 minutes?
I must take the new Franklin Shuttle! The shades of Bill Menden and William G. Gove will curse me if I don't.
But between work and family, I only get into the City for business these days, so I'll have to make a special effort.
The last time I rode the shuttle, the wood platform over the westbound at Franklin Avenue was still intact--so you can imagine what the shuttle still looks like in my mind.
I hope what I see when I visit doesn't upset me too much.
Paul, please e-mail me in advance of your trip -- that's if you don't mind the company.
Doug aka BMTman
I will do that, Doug, assuming it's not a spur-of-the-moment decision. (Bad RR pun intended).
10/05/99
I passed Franklin and Fulton on Sunday in my car and the entry building on the corner looked ready to open. A gent with reflective vest was on inside. A sign above entrance proclaimed - FRANKLIN AVENUE STATION (A) (C) (S). When I passed the shuttle bus stop the letters "FS" on the red & blue sign were covered over.
Bill Newkirk
Will the shuttle really reopen tomorrow? I want to ride it on the first day and I don't want to end up at Franklin Avenue forced to take that pathetic bus.
NOTICE TO ALL SUBTALKERS: The Franklin Shuttle WILL NOT be opening tomorrow. There is a delay and I have heard (thanks Lou) that the bus service will continue through the weekend. So the next possible opening day may be Monday, October 11. However, as soon as I hear anything about a definite date I will certainly post the info here.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Thanks for the info. I was planning to go there tomorrow but now I'll alter my plans.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/06/99
Maybe the TA was looking for a motorman with the name LUCIANO to initiate service ??
OUCH !!
Bill Newkirk
TA Customer Service told me it was pushed back to Dec. 31.
WHAT! That must be a mistake or one of their standard answers.
One customer service rep a couple of weeks ago told me around the beginning of the year as well. But then my contact at TA is usually not to far off the mark with these things.
Well, I'm keeping a sharp eye out for the removal of the construction barricades at the Franklin Ave. C train station. If it's gone, that would be a sure indicator that FS service has been restored.
Doug aka BMTman
One of the guys working at Botanic Garden yesterday also told me it would open on the 11th, Columbus Day, so I hope we can trust the date. I took the opportunity of a stroll down Franklin--and what a weird, semi-industrial part of the world it is, especially considering how opulent the architecture is a block away at Bedford; it's like a pocket of 19th-century, pre-zoning urbanism--to see what I could from the street. There are still two tracks in the open cut north of Eastern Parkway, and the western one merges into the eastern at the point near Sterling Place where the grade rises. (Speaking of which, I never noticed the sharp dip Park Place takes to get under the tracks--something to keep in mind if you're ever driving a loaded U-Haul in the neighborhood.) The platforms at Franklin and Park Place are built out where the western track had been, and the viaducts for that track have also been removed (although the embankments along the ROW are still their original dimensions). Park Place has a handsome station house where the southbound platform was--am I right in thinking that's brand new? It does resemble the one at Prospect Park. It has a long ADA-compliant ramp from Prospect Place. The Franklin Avenue station house looks quite glorious from the outside, with stained-glass windows around the shuttle platform and a handsome glass bridge to the Manhattan-bound C. (The original IND stair on the NW corner has been placed inside fare control and attached to this overpass, along with an elevator.) I didn't see any trace of Dean Street Station, unless the derelict ironwork leaning between the embankment and the TA cable shop had something to do with it.
The Park Place station is totally new, since the original was an island station. I believe this one rests where the southbound track used to run.
Yes, I took a picture of the ROW at the Steling Place overpass. I captured the Y convergence that is located just south of the overpass, as the dual tracks merge. There is a brand new NYCT storage equipment shed (?) up on the street level part of the embankment.
Doug aka BMTman
DEAN ST is gone PERIOD. It was only wood stuctrue in the end anyway. Matter of fact I used it once a year to work at a book warehouse that has now also moved to the west coast (Golden Lee Book Dist.).
I can't wait to get Pix of those stain glass windows, too bad the 68's will be in front of em...
"visible remnants of the original line to Bedford Terminal" Could you amplify on this?
"visible remnants of the original line to Bedford Terminal" Could you amplify on this?
( Repeat of my reply to Bill Newkirk )
Bedford Terminal was the original northern terminal of The Brighton Beach Line from steam days until the line was connected with the Fulton Street L.
The location of the terminal (south side of Atlantic Avenue, east of the elevated structure) was still unbuilt on as recently as 20 years ago or so, the site of a used car dealership. A surface track could still be seen east of the current structure leading to this location, possibly as late as the current rebuild.
Oops, I only saw the original reply after I had sent my message. Remaining surface tracks leading to Bedford Terminal!! Now that's historical. Maybe I'll go and try to sneak a peak while everyone else is celebrating this millenium thing (whatever the heck that is).
Am I correct in believing that the Brighton tracks heading north curved only westerly onto Atlantic Avenue? How would this remaining track fit into the scheme of things? Do any photos of Bedford Terminal exist?
Paul, is this Bedford Terminal in any way related to the proposed link between the Flatbush branch of the LIRR and the Brighton line back at the turn of the Century?
Just curious.
Doug aka BMTman
Although I'm not Paul, I would think so as the Flatbush branch ran street level on Atlantic in those days.
The Flatbush Branch LIRR has an interesting history vis-a-vis the Brighton Line. In addition to providing thru-routing in the BF&CI days for Brighton trains, the line itself (The LIRR line, that is) ended up owned by the BMT due to franchise issues that I'm not very familiar with. Because of this, the City owns the LIRR branch today.
I don't know the exact reasoning behind turn-of-the-century LIRR-Brighton plans at Franklin, but the historic relationship between the two roads probably had an impact.
I have seen the track layout at Bedford, but it was many years ago, I don't recall where I saw it, and I especially don't recall whether there was a direct eastbound connection.
Sorry, that's not much help!
The reason the line is owned by the City is that the original franchisee for a rail route along Atlantic was a company that was bought by the BMT. Prior to that, they leased their franchise to what became LIRR. With unification, the lease passed to the city as a BMT asset, it did not go to the TA (like the rest of the system) under the master lease because it isnt anything used to run the city transit system. LIRR pays some fairly low (by todays standards) amount under this lease (that expires fairly soon). All of this affected the plans to rehab Atlantic Terminal station, (which is owned by LIRR), because the new lease deals had to be worked out before MTA would commit to rebuilding the terminal. All of the above was spelled out in excrutiating legal detail every month in the MTA real estate committee (board) agenda. I havent been to a planning and real estate committee meeting for a few years, so I dont know if it is still included.
Verrrry interesting! Thanks for the post.
I had assumed that because the City of New York split the costs with the LIRR for the massive grade elimination program along Atlantic Ave. (1906-1915) that the Flatbush branch was jointly owned by the City and LIRR.
Just curious, do you work for MTA/NYCT or LIRR? Sounds like you have some "inside" information.
Doug aka BMTman
Does all of this have anything to do with the RPA proposal to turn the Atlantic Branch into a subway line? Also, was the lease cut back to Flatbush Avenue when the tunnel down to the water was abandoned or does it still extend all the way to the foot of Atlantic Avenue?
If the lease does include the original waterfront LIRR route then it might affect the legalities of the BHRA's claims to that tunnel under Atlantic.
I still don't believe they'll turn the LIRR Flatbush Branch into a subway line since the A train already parellels most of that lines route by a difference of 3 city blocks.
Doug aka BMTman
BHRA?
Brooklyn Historic Railway Association (Bob Diamond)
I didn't know the BHRA made any legal claim to the tunnel itself.
It isn't like salvaging a sunken ship. I assume the City as owner of the street or the successor to the owner of the tunnel would be the owner of the tunnel today. If it is the City, they would have the right to designate BHRA as their representative, but I don't think they could give BHRA absolute control over it or convey it to them as property.
Consider this: suppose I were an Urban Archeologist who needed to do important first-hand research on the tunnel and I request access. For some reason, the BHRA says no. I would say they have no right to do that, just as the City couldn't give administration of the City Archives to a private agency who could pick and choose who has access.
I'm not an attorney, but am familiar with how these things work in the real world.
Yeah, I would assume the city has leased the tunnel to BHRA, since I would assume that the city owns the manhole and all subterreanian rights along the ROW.
Doug aka BMTman
10/04/99
While this mystery of Bedford Terminal has been brought up , how about the LIRR Atlantic branch tunnel pockets for a Franklin Shuttle connection ? Yes, they exist. When leaving Flatbush Ave Terminal on the LIRR look to your right before the train leaves the portal. The area is lit by lights and if looking out the front window , thus could be seen better. Seen are either one or two tunnel pockets turning off to the right. They look kinda narrow which would explain either one or two pockets. The location would be directly under the Franklin Shuttle. Also , now demolished and rebuilt , the old lattice work structure north of then Park Place station had some kind of steelwork jutting out suggesting possibly a connection of another track. If I'm wrong about my theory on this,please correct me.
Bill Newkirk
You're correct on all counts.
The original aligment in the area was (coming from geographic south) open cut to Park Place, then surface running with grade crossings to Bedford Terminal.
Then a ramp was built a couple of blocks north of Park Place to an elevated to connect with the Fulton Street L.
Finally, c.1903, the grade crossings in the vicinity of Park Place were eliminated when the recently-demolished structure was built. At that time, at least one track was retained to Bedford, but I'm not certain for how long.
Paul: The surface track on the east side of the embankment was intact until at least 1959 although I do not believe it was connected to the main tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/05/99
Paul,
It's nice to be right on some of not all counts once in a while. Well,how about those LIRR tunnel pockets? Are we talking joint LIRR/BRT service that never materializd?
Bill Newkirk
Not able to speak for Paul -- just for my historically-weak self -- I can say with some certainty that yes, those tunnel pockets in the walls of the Flatbush LIRR line were indeed a start of work that was never completed. And yes, it would have allowed LIRR trains to run to the Coney Island shore. This was during the Corbin years of the LIRR. And it may have also been prior to Corbin's Manhattan Beach RR that split from the Bay Ridge line and ran parellel to the Brighton to Sheepshead Bay (and then Manhattan Beach).
Doug aka BMTman
In the book "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George, on pgs 16-17 they talk about joint LIRR/BRT service. There was a flying junction at Chestnut St between the LIRR and the Bway El near the Bklyn/Queens border and there were trains that went from Delancey St over the Williamsburg to Rockaway Park until 1917. The flying junction was eventually eliminated. There was also a connection of the BRT with the LIRR at Flatbush Av LIRR terminal but closed it down in 1905 when they started to rebuild the station. On page 66 is a picture of a rapid transit style car used on the Rockaway Lines for joint LIRR/BRT service. It sort of looks like a Low-V. Unfortunately, nowhere in the book does i speak of any connection between the LIRR and the Franklyn Shuttle.
He doesn't talk about it because it was never built. As I mentioned in an earlier posting there was a portal that was started but that was all. It is along the eastbound side of the tunnel somewhere between Flatbush Ave. and Franklin Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm not sure is anyone has mentioned this since I haven't read all the messages on this thread, but there WAS a connection between the LIRR and the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island RR (today's Brighton line and Franklin Shuttle) at Franklin and Atlantic from 1878 to 1884. The connection allowed trains (both LIRR and BF&CI) to run from Coney Island to the LIRR's Flatbush Ave. terminal, as well as to Hunter's Point and east to LI. After Austin Corbin (who owned the Manhattan Beach line - the Brighton's main competitor) bought the LIRR in 1880, he did everything possible to discourage this service and it was not renewed when the agreement expired in 1884. The Atlantic Ave. line at this time was at street level, while I believe the BF&CI was in a shallow cut, which had to be made deeper so the LIRR locomotives would have enough clearance.
Bob, thanks. I think you have some of that info at your LIRR History webpage, am I right?
The question that's been thrown out recently is was there ever an attempt to make a connect between the LIRR and the Franklin/Brighton Line AFTER the grade elimination project (1915). Obviously, if there had been one it would've been a rather steep grade since LIRR trains were/are subway while the BMT was embankment.
Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
A possible connection was allowed for, but I've never seen (plans, public speculation, etc.) any indication that a new LIRR-Franklin Shuttle connection was seriously contemplated after 1900.
The LIRR still had service to Manhattan Beach into the '20s, which it abandoned. When the Atlantic Avenue Line was taken off the surface, there was no provision for a station at Bedford.
10/07/99
Paul,
We meet again ! I don't know if you have my 2000 New York City Subways calendar,but if you have a copy,check out the October 2000 photo. R-32's southbound entering the old Park Place station. Look at the lower left hand corner,you'll see that iron work jutting out suggesting a track connection to something! Now,was that something the LIRR or Bedford Terminal you spoke of. Sorry I don't have the capabilities to scan the photo.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, I don't have the calendar, so can't see the photo.
The ironwork you speak (remember I can't see it) depending on where it is and how it faces, could be remains of the temporary structure that aided in the c.1903 rebuilding that eliminated the last grade crossings in the area.
The last surviving connection from the Brighton Line to Bedford came from just south of old Park Place station and was on the surface, east of the structure.
Paul: Your 1903 date coincides with a 1910 track map that I have of the line and the only siding shown is the one for the Brewery at Consumers Park."This Buds for you."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,Are you looking at the ERA's "Tracks of New York"? I'll have to locate my copy--if so, the source is good but not always definitive. For example, Joe Brennan has effectively refuted its alignment of the old Park Ave Line at Brooklyn Bridge.
I've been trying to locate a post-reconstruction photo which would show the finished condition at Park Place but so far have not.
I've personally seen the street track I've mentioned at least as late as c.1960, maybe much later.
As to the connection, I believe it was Martin Schachne who told me he had seen the connection in existence.
Paul: I don't doubt that the track was still in place but the connection to a signalled main track being retained is unlikely.One track certainly was still there as late as 1958 and from the middle 60's onward I can't recall any connection. Still Marty was most knowledgeable about the system so he may have been right.
Larry,RedbirdR33
check out the October 2000 photo. R-32's southbound entering the old Park Place station. Look at the lower left hand corner,you'll see that iron work jutting out suggesting a track connection to something!
Bill, I got a copy of your Subways 2000 calendar. Very impressive! Several of the photos are nothing less than beautiful.
Anyway, the way grade crossing elimination at Park/Prospect Places went was like this: from just south of Park Place surface tracks were constructed (where they didn't already exist) outboard of the regular tracks. These tracks proceeded on the surface, then climbed temporary ramps adjacent to the previously existing Brighton/Fulton ramp to switch onto the elevated part of the structure south of Atlantic Avenue.
The original ramp was then eliminated, and the structure and new station at Park Place was built while Brighton trains used the outer tracks.
I see the photo in your calendar is looking north from the north end of Park Place toward Dean Street. Now that I see it, I recall that piece of steelwork from riding the shuttle.
Framkly, I'm having difficulty figuring out what the significance of that piece of structure is. Its location is where part of the temporary structure was, but I don't beieve it is part of it.
The original ballasted abutment shown in the foreground of your picture did not extend that far north in the original rebuild. I suspect it was part of the 1924 upgrade that made all stations long enough for 6-car B-types. So that piece of structure is probably in support of the station extension at that time.
10/10/99
Glad you liked the calendar Paul. There are back issues available of more photos you may have missed,unless you have these back issues. Any questions,click on "Bill Newkirk" in blue and E-mail me.
Bill Newkirk
The system is full of tunnel pockets and provisions for lines and connections that never materialized.
What I'm saying is that the connection was provided for, but I'm not sure the thinking got as far as specific routings.
Vincent Seyfried of the Long Island Brooklyn Historical Society would probably know, but I haven't been in touch with him for a year of Sundays.
Larry, I do recall that track visible into the '60s ... I suspect part of it might have survived to the current rebuild.
IIRC, Martin Schachne (for those who didn't know him, his memory went back to the late '30s or early '40s) told me he remembered the track connected.
Community pressure save this line from passing into history like the Culver Shuttle and Myrtle Ave. el. The only reason I liked this line was becuase it was so neglected a large part of the old structure remained, showing what it looked like many years ago. Now that' its virtually new, I have no desire to ride it, beyond one time to see what the rebuild looks like.
IF the bridge is coming down, why not build another 1 or 2 bases in the middle of the bridge? It sure beats the "building a new tunnel" or "build a new bridge" idea. Right?
Why bother? It's going to fall apart anyway. It's like trying to upgrade a 286 to a PentiumIII. Sure, you can (sort of) do it, but is it *really* worth all the hassle? Besides - those bases don't just appear there - SOMEONE has to build them, and that's *very* dangerous work.
And it doesn't solve the major problem of a bridge that's simply worm out. Yes, worn out. As it gets older and older, and accumulates more and more load/unload cycles, it gets more and more suceptable to fatigue (which was little more than a curiosity until the Commet jetliner accidents of the early 50's, so this bridge predates that science). Not to mention salt spray, pigeons, rust, inadequate protection, thermal variations, overweight trucks, snow, rain, etc. All weaken the bridge. How much the cycling is a problem is hard to say, but it's definantely NOT good for the bridge (paper clips don't get stronger if you bend them back and forth a lot, do they?).
And besides, a LOT has been learned about bridges over the last 50 years. Not to mention NYC could use a big change in the skyline :)
(though Trump seems to have that taken care of! On some level, I wish his world's tallest residential apartment would simply be the world's tallest building, and I know he HAS discussed the idea publicly before.)
It would pose an obstacle to navigation on the East River.
--Mark
With sub-talkers talking about the 2 different els on the Canarsie Line-a block away from each other on Van Sinderin & Sneidiker (one for each direction), I remember an old story of mine from when I was a little kid in the late 50's/early 60's. My grandmother was taking me to her house in Bklyn via the Hempstead Line. In those days the cars had full length cabs, some even after a mail or baggage area. (Some of those cars are the present day diesel cars)
The engineer usually let kids ride with him & look out the railfan window. (round porthole window) I was riding up front and at Country Life Press I saw the 2 tracks become single. I asked the engineer where the track for the opposite direction was and he answered with a straight face, two blocks that way and pointed west. He was so convincing I actually thought there were 2 CLP stations for years!!! When we came home I thought we were at the other station.
There was some sort of G.O. on Saturday on B4 track. They had a yellow strip placed along the pillars in the station keeping passengers on the side of the platform closest to B2 track. I don't think they were doing a movie because I didn't see any special lighting etc. The consist was:N-2922,2921,5134.5135,5137,5136-S.Thats right, six cars. If I can find the G.O., I'll have more details.
There must have been a reason for this lashup. 2921 and 22 are supposed to be a part of the Franklin Shuttle Car Assignments, aren't they?
-Stef
There won't be a Subway series because Texas will beat the Yankees in four games.Now what do the Yankee fans have to say?
Mike, getting a little ahead ain't we. As a Yankee fan since 1957, when my father changed my diapers in the old Yankee Stadium, as they say, it ain't over until the fat lady sings.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The fat lady is stuck in the elevator!
-Hank
As much as I hate the Yankees, even I realize they will probably demolish the Texas Rangers. The Yankees have a fairly easy ride to the World Series, since they've dominated both Cleveland and Texas. But if Boston beats Cleveland, then watch out ...
Texas beat the Yankees in post season play??? I guess they now think they can handle the Yankees - what a pity:-).
Wayne
Yeh right. Baseball Trivia Question What do the Minn Twins and the Texas Rangers Have In Common? Answer tomorrow if nobody gets it.Also what do the Yankees and St LOuis Browns Have In Common answer tomorrow?
First Question: Both used to be the Washington Senators. the original Senators moved to Minnesota in 1962 and the new Senators, formed later, moved to Texas in 1972.
The second question:
Before 1904 the team known since 1914 as the New York Yankees (they were the NY Highlanders 1904-14) were the original Baltimore Orioles. In the 1950s, the team that was the STL Browns became the modern Baltimore Orioles. Also, a LONG time ago, the Browns played in Milwaukee.
You win the prize,
The Yankees were the Baltimore Orioles until 1903, when they moved to NY and became the Highlanders.
The current Orioles were the St. Louis Browns until 1954.
Both the Texas Rangers and Minnesota Twins were once known as the Washington Senators, the first (Twins) until 1961; the second (Rangers) from 1961 until 1972.
Both 1961 expansion teams have moved and changed their names. Neither of them has ballbark access via subway.
The Athletics and the Braves are the only teams to have moved twice (thus, played in 3 cities) The atletics may become the first team to move 3 times, if a suspected move to Las Vegas occurs.
There may be yet another Washington Senators, if the Expos suggested move occurs.
Only the Expos would have subway access if they move to DC.
Now, where were the NBA Lakers, 76ers, Warriors, and Clippers originally from? What NHL team is the only one to ever have moved TO Canada?
-Hank
The "76'ers were the Syracuse Nationals from 1949 to 1965 (1955 NBA Champions) Owner Danny Biasone sold the entire team to the Philly group for $ 100,000.00 Wonder what today's '76ers are worth $$$$Hundred$ of billion$ $$$$
***ERROR*** The Nationals were sold in 1963 not '65
The Lakers-Minneapolis, 76-Syracuse Nationals, Warriors Philly, Clippers Started as the Buffalo Braves then San Diego, Houston came from San Diego. You forgot the Sac Kings originally the Rochester then KC then KC/Omaha/Back to KC Royals
The Atlanta Flames moved to Calgary.
OK, here's a football trivia question: both the Colts and Chiefs were in the same city at one time (not at the same time), and had the same nickname. What was the city and what was the nickname they had in common?
Here's another: in which city did the Rams start out?
And another: name three cities whose baseball and football teams shared the same nickname.
Who are the Portsmouth Spartans known as today? How about the Decatur Staleys?
The Rams were originally from Cleveland. The Colts were originally the AAFC Miami franchise, which moved to Baltimore and joined the NFL (oddity of oddities, the Colts played the Jets in Superbowl III, which was the first 'AFL-NFL Championship' to be billed as the 'Super Bowl', is now in the same AFC Division (post-merger) as the Jets) and then moved to Indianapolis in '84.
The Chiefs were originally the Dallas Texans, and as such were the champions of the AFL early on.
The only cities I can think of where the football and baseball teams shared a name are New York, with the Giants, and St. Louis, with the Cardinals.
-Hank
The only cities I can think of where the football and baseball teams shared a name are New York, with the Giants, and St. Louis, with the Cardinals.
You forgot Chicago: The Losers!
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
You forgot the New York Yankee and Brooklyn Dodger football teams (along with the Stapleton Stapes).
You know, I forgot about the New York Giants. Shame on me, being the football Giants fan that I am. Anyway, that is a fourth correct answer along with NY Yankees, Brooklyn Dodgers, and St. Louis Cardinals.
Before the Colts found themselves in Baltimore, they spent one season as the Dallas Texans. IIRC, before that, they were the NY Yankees. Norm Van Brocklin set a single-game passing record against the Yankees when he played for the LA Rams which still stands today.
Yes, the Kansas City Chiefs started out as the Dallas Texans. And yes, the Rams were originally in Cleveland. Ironically, they moved to LA right after winning the NFL championship in 1945.
I just thought of this: you can add Denver to the two-teams-with-the-same-nickname list, although they didn't exist at the same time. Before the Quebec Nordiques moved to Denver and became the Colorado Avalanche, there was an NHL franchise known as the Colorado Rockies, which became the New Jersey Devils in 1983. And, of course, our baseball team is also known as the Colorado Rockies. Don't let the "our" fool you; I will NEVER root against the Mets!
Even if RTD doesn't extend the proposed light rail Platte Valley Spur all the way to Coors Field, Union Station is three blocks away.
Actually, there were 2 NY Mets, as the city had an American Association (considered a major league in the late 1800's) team called the New York Metropolitians.
They played in the Polo Grounds with the New York Gothams (later Giants) of the NL. But these were actual grounds for Polo just north of Central Park.
Extra two to make up:
This is Avenue D
The next stop on this 4 will be Kings Highway
This is Kings Highway
The next stop on this 4 will be Flatlands Avenue-Ryder Square
This is Flatlands Avenue-Ryder Square
The next stop on this 4 will be Avenue N.
Yes, I do remember something about that.
BTW, the Portsmouth Spartans are now known as the Detroit Lions. The Decatur Staleys moved to Chicago and as part of that deal, kept the Staleys nickname for one year, then became the Bears.
Does anybody have a colored photo they can scan and e mail me of the following 1-Triplex Car on the Brighton, 1-Triplex and Standard together . I would appreciate it. I would like to put it up as my Screensaver. Thanks Bob
I have a 4 hour layover to change planes in Cleveland this coming Thursday. I know Cleveland RTA runs into the Airport, can someone give me their web site and what is a good station to take pictures of the heavy rail and light rail, and I can get back in time so I do not miss my flight.?
if you go one stop out on the airport line there is a lot a HEAVY(fright) rail action or there was. to see light rail you can go all to way downtown to termal tower. that might a little close on the timing. these info may be dated it been 6 years since been in cleveland
I found a schedule on the web, 18 minutes each way to Terminal Towerand when I get it it is early so frequent service. Thanks
On Friday, Nightline began a series on biological warfare. The first installment dealt with an anthrax attack on a subway(they showed both the DC Metrorail and BART, assuming no one knows the difference) and showed how easily an entire city could fall victim to something as simple as someone dropping a bottle onto a trackway.
It continues tomorrow. It's very interesting.
If I were to identify anything that might reverse the rebirth of NYC (and of mass transit), I'd have to say disease is the number one threat. It doesn't have to be biological warfare. It could be an epidemic of a non-curable disease. 60 minutes did a story on drug-resistant TB spreading out from Russia.
In the event of biological warfare or plague, people would be a little safer living in detached houses, working in isolated office parks, driving between them, and never going outside. They'd feel a lot safer. After all, it was the Black Death that wrecked the cities of the high middle ages.
If one is inclined to thinking of such things, you don't have to go back to the Black Death. The influenza (yes, the flu!) epidemic of 1918 killed millions of people over just a few months, including hundreds of thousands in the US. I saw a PBS documentary on this, and from the program and the website, I got the impression that people were staying in their homes and avoiding public assemblies and crowds as much as possible. Some cities closed theaters and schools, and many cities issued or required the wearing of gauze masks -- bizarre photos of people marching in Great War bond rallies, all wearing masks! It was only the war effort or similar vital or overarching needs that would get many people to go out in public at all. By the end of the epidemic, things were actually starting to break down: trains, ships, and other transportation rerouted or cut off in a futile attempt to block the disease's spread, workplaces shut down, vital services becoming intermittent due to lack of workers and unwillingness of remaining healthy workers to go out, etc.! Then the spread of the disease ended almost as abruptly as it began.
And before anyone else points it out, the 1918 epidemic was a contributing factor to the Malbone Street Wreck. The replacement motorman (Luciano?) had not only returned to work recently still weak from battling the flu, but was under the emotional strain of his daughter dying from the epidemic as well.
They did it is Tokyo not too long ago, someone could do it here
Not to scare anyone, but the U.S. Army has been called in to aid the CDC in trying to identify the particular virus that has been killing birds (and some people) in the NY area. End the CDC is unsure whether it is the St. Louis Encephalitis or the "West Nile-like" version. They are also concerned that spraying for Mosquitoes may not be the answer if in fact ticks are the carriers as has been recently rumored. Food for thought...
It was also on the NBC Nightly news with Tom Brokaw
I heard about that outbreak. Hope the mosquito problem subsides by the time I'm out there, if that turns out to be the cause of spreading.
Drug-resistant TB is popping up more and more these days.
Anyone run into delays on Manhattan bound 4 out of Grand Army Plaza this morning? What happened?? Appreciate your time!
I was on a #2 that left Flatbush Avenue around 9:30 AM. It took around an hour to get to Grand Army Plaza, at which point I gave up and went upstairs to take a B41 bus.
David
[Anyone run into delays on Manhattan bound 4 out of Grand Army Plaza this morning? What happened?? Appreciate your time!]
They announced that an earlier no. 4 had lost power near Franklin, causing the n/b express track to go out of service, with all 2,3,4,and 5 service to go local from Franklin to Atlantic. I was on the 8:20 Flatbush to Dyre 5 train; we didn't get to Grand Central till approx. 9:45.
subfan
As a student, I have a request to make of anyone who is willing to assist me with a project. I would like to locate someone with a long-standing association with NYC transit, either as a hobby or as a profession, to interview about their experiences and observations over a long period of time in the most detail they can provide. I'd prefer these interviews be taped, but since I don't want to inconvenience anyone, a written statement would be helpful. Anyone who is willing to help, please email me at dshansk1@ic3.ithaca.edu .
For you sportsfans of the Subway Series that would pit the Yankees against the Mets, be advised that this day (October 4) is the 44th (my favorite number) anniversary of the Brooklyn Dodgers only World Series win. Johnny Podres shut out the Yankees 2-0 on this date, so all us old Brooklyn fans-------it's time to celebrate a great occasion.
Subway Series Yankees 41, 47, 49, 52, 53, 56 Dodgers 55 that makes Yankees 6 Bums 1 and we won t go in to the Yankee Giants 1 stop series
For anyone in the WHYY-TV 12 viewing area, you'll be able to see me and some fellow classmates talking with John Street on 10/17 at 10am.
Just a little plug:)
I dont know if it is deliberate but I found an ERROR on every AMEX Ccard in my booth.
The card is designed to resemble an AMEX Card. The problem? the thing is printed upside down. (The promo cards still have the card number and the "White area" on the back) and you have to turn it upside down to read the "numbers on the AMEX Card"
OFFICIAL BULLETIN LIMITS A CUSTOMER TO THREE CARDS PER VISIT. (If you want more, go to the end of the line and then you are a new customer( yes- that is what the bulletin says!)
I read a novel within the last year, about a Motorman who was operating out of an IRT terminal in the Bronx. His wife left him, and he went on the skids. It was a really good book, and I've been wanting to recommend it to the people here, but I can't remember the title. I've searched the public library's catalog and can't find it. He ended up homeless with major problems. Anybody read it?? I even checked Amazon and they don't show it...
After all this fanfare, the Second Avenue Subway will be 2 track from Lexington and 63rd Street to 125th Street with 6 stops. Talking about going halfway. Hey, I have an idea. Connect the Second Avenue Subway to the Bronx and use the old 155th Street Shuttle right of way. then we can find out what's really in the tunnel under those apt. buildings.
After all this fanfare, the plan is to STUDY a short subway NOT BUILD IT. MORE STUDY and a few holes will cost $700 million. If we could really get PHASE I done in this capital plan, I would be happy, and have some hope for PHASE II.
The $700 million is for design and construction, not study and construction. The study (MESA) is finished.
David
[After all this fanfare, the plan is to STUDY a short subway NOT BUILD IT. MORE STUDY and a few holes will cost $700 million. If we could really get PHASE I done in this capital plan, I would be happy, and have some hope for PHASE II.]
I really hate the fact they are excluding 2nd Avenue and 125th Street where there's a big housing development there? Which leads me to see a crosstown 125th Street Line.
125th Street and Lexington Avenue will require passengers to walk three levels. That's really foolish.
Does anyone have any recently-expired MDTA Metropasses from Miami, Florida, that he/she/they would be willing to trade for a few MTA New York City "MetroCards"? If so, you can email me at MUNI@maestro.com, and we can exchange mailing addresses.
Andres Greene aka CityRail
Chantal, I'm sorry that you did not approve of my response to the posting made (allegedly by your friend), about the supposed racist train operator. I find the fact that you wrote to me privately somewhat presumptuous considering that I chose a public forum to vent my opinion. Even more so, saying that "If I were a minority..." was also very presumptuous since you do not know me at all. As a matter of fact I am a minority and I do know very well what it's like to be a minority. I also know what it's like to be hated for the color of my skin and my religion. However, despite the fact that we disagree, I'm not going to assume that you are a racist. I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and assume that you have some growing to do.
As for the issue at hand, your friend called the train operator a RACIST. He offered no proof but made the charge. All he could do to justify his charge was say that the train operator objected to the behavior of the three young men, behavior that obviously occurred before he boarded the train. He had no idea of what had preceded his boarding but based on no facts at all, decided that the train operator (with tuna breath) was a racist and wrong. He also decided that the T/O was a racist for calling control center despite the fact that TA Rules require all unusual occurrances to be documented. Let us not let facts get the way of our condemnations.
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people throwing that term around. I've even heard some say that people of color, because of their standing in society, can not be racist. I think you and your friend had better re-evaluate your value system and how you evaluate events. If you think that calling a possibly innocent man a racist, makes up for past injustice to people of color, shame on you. It makes as much sense as it did to acquit O.J.Simpson because Mark Fuhrman is a racist.
Now, you can show my posting in your sociology class if you wish. Just show the original posting too. Might as well give all the facts, right? I don't think that the sentiment would be as overwhelming as you seem to think. As for the personal attack on my intelligence, what can I say. After all, you are the college student. But one must question why you E-mailed me privately to defend your friend and his public posting. Surely he didn't need to enlist someone so intelligent as you to tell me off.
I don't know what passed between you and Ms. Dyer, nor do I remember your original posting, but you seem to have crafted a balanced response.
There are actual racists in the world, but it is a phrase thrown about very carelessly. Maybe the T/O in question was one, but he is not on the forum to defend himself.
College is a place where we often analyze people, events and society with great depth, precision and certainty, before the real world confuses us with reality.
Well said, Paul!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[College is a place where we often analyze people, events and society with great depth, precision and certainty, before the real world confuses us with reality.]
College students like Chantal Janine Dyer should spend less time on philosophical thinking and more time preparing themselves for "real world" life after graduation. In particular, they should be exercising their wrists so they'll have an easier time flipping burgers at McDonald's.
Actually, Columbia is a great school or perhaps it was a great school. Unfortunately college students forget that they are in school to learn how to think and forget that they really do not have all the answers. Such is the case with Ms. Dyer. Proof is that she thinks that her sociology class might find me interesting. Well as I always like to say, "Everyone has a purpose in life, even if it's to serve as a poor example."
[Actually, Columbia is a great school or perhaps it was a great school.]
Maybe, but a CS or EE degree from Moose Valley State College will get you a whole lot farther (and richer) than a sociology degree from Columbia.
Or even Whatsamatta U. (grin)
Hey, Rocky!! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!!
Don't forget skvirrel and moose! And Boris, darling.
Be-heh-heh-heh!
What do you expect from a Liberal Arts major?
[What do you expect from a Liberal Arts major?]
Not much.
I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering. Whats OPWN????? !!!!!
Whats OPWN????? !!!!!
A character in Star Wars, IIRC.
Jeff, that was not my lack of a Columbia University education showing. Actually the word is OPEN The E is right next to the W on my keyboard. not a spelling error, just a typing error.
as a one time history major at a definitely liberal arts school--you might expect a subway general trainfan who reads French and is interested in the history of the Byzantine Empire among others...
A recent post by Steve reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask. When you read a post, and the person's name is in blue, that means you can get his e-mail address by clicking on his name. Why are some names in blue and others not? Is it basically anyone who has an e-mail address will come through in blue?
Second question. What is the etiquette of contacting someone using his e-mail address? There are times when I have something to say that is not really related to transit ( about 95% of the time ) that I would consider contacting the person via e-mail and only irritating him with my silliness. If someone would not want to be contacted through his e-mail address, can he have his address suppressed. I generally feel like I'm invading someone's personal space by using e-mail and will usually say that I hope it is not a bother.
If it's a bother, then we wouldn't put up our addy's. Now would we? Me, mail as much as you want. Harold? Leave him alone. It's an individual thing.
I'm still not clear on the mechanism for a person's name appearing in blue.
Also over the last two weeks on the BusTalk side of the tracks there was a rather heated exchange going on in public that was painful and at times scary to witness. Sometimes, I wonder if it would be better for people who feel personally attacked to take it off the board. Sometimes being out in the public only raises the temperature and prolongs the troubles.
A person's name appears in blue if they've made an entry in the "E-Mail Address" box.
To illustrate, I took my e-mail address out of the box, and my name should appear in black.
See?
OK
I've written directly to Sub-talkers to reply to a question anytime I thought the topic wasn't transit related.
If you don't want your email address to show, leave the box titled "E-Mail Address" under "Post a New Response" blank. Then your name will not appear in blue, and noone can contact you.
If you want to contact someone who has posted an e-mail address, I would say you should feel free to do so. Tell the person upfront where you got the address (on the Subtalk forum pertaining to "x" subject) and why you are writing.
If the person isn't interesting in responding, they just won't. No need to take it personally--onbiously you wouldn't pursue it any further. If they do respond, the quality of the response will tell you whether they're interested in continuing the conversation.
At least, that's my experience.
Agreed. Sometimes there's a reason why a person can't post an email address too - until I bought the new Mac earlier this year I did all my posting from the office (lunchtime, after business hours, etc.) but didn't want to publish that address. Now I do my posting from home (or from the office network when I'm travelling) and I post my home email address. Kind of like my handle - I created it because I was posting from work and now, since most everyone knows me that way, I see no reason to change it. (Besides, I think it's kind of neat!)
I'm almost always glad to converse on a variety of subjects off the board, so feel free to write. If I don't respond right away it may be because I'm travelling or simply because I'm too busy at the moment, but you'll eventually hear from me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't contact me. Im on my laptop at Jay Street.
Let me give my opinion on the subject. I really enjoy Subtalk. From it, I get anywhere from 5 to 20 E-Mails daily from it. Most are friendly. Occassionally one or two are not. One has even lead to a Criminal (Bias) case in my home county. Most are people who want info or want to discuss things in detail that may not be of interest to the majority. I've even enjoyed meeting some of those who have E-mailed me. On the whole, it's been very rewarding.
As to this particular E-Mail, I took it back to Subtalk for several reasons. First, this person is not a Subtalker. She purports to be the friend of the original poster - who has gone suddenly mute. She has attacked me personally, not my point of view but my tollerence and my intelligence. She's made certain assumptuions that she has no basis to make. I do not feel that this E-Mail is a natural extension of a thread on Subtalk. I, therefore, do not feel obliged to keep it private. I hope that she (or her 'friend') see my response as I do not plan to respond to her privately.
Hey Paul. The only way your EMail gets put on the message (in blue) is if you put it where it says E-Mail address below your name and above subject. You probably don't remember but you must have put it in on your 1rst posting and the memory (cookies) keeps carrying it each time you go to subtalk. If you delete the E-Mail address on your next posting it will appear in black with no link to your E-Mail. Now the following wav is for you, Paul!!
Thanks Sarge, but I wish you didn't put them up publicly. I wouldn't want people to know about my interest in the Stooges, even though many people think I am one of the Stooges. Yeah I didn't realize about the cookies and stuff. I just noticed my name in blue one day, and thought that someone realized I was depressed.
Reasons for encouraging direct e-mail responces:
1. Many of us, like me, work somewhere in the system. As Steve said you can get two kinds of replies from folks, i.e. good & bad.
I've made a few employee friends who I can bounce work related questions off of. I recently got a FAX of a TA document that went to a VP because the sect. thought it was official business vs. just my curiosity.
2. Several times fellow SubTalkers have corrected me off-line, that was real nice of them to do it that way.
3. Also said here, you may want to go way off topic. Also I'm a MetroCard collector ... the group doesn't mind some general announcements, but the site is no place for trading transactions.
4. The only negitive is that some nuts want to insult you off line, but as Steve said the positives generally out weigh the negitives.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston put it very well. E-mail has the gteat feature called by various names: Delete, Trashcan, garbage can, etc.
I too get much transit related e-mail. Some get deleted, some get deleted UNREAD, and some I choose to respond.
I e-mail many people on this board and find them to be considerate and educated people( I did not say "Schooled"). I have gotten crank e-mails and they went straight to the trash.
I do read my e- mail daily and respond. I have been contacted by members of the mass media and granted m,any requests for information.
With the exception of the "big Kids" most sub-talkers are a great group of people.
A good example of this is this: When I went down to the Fifth Ave Book Fair last week, and met Brian Cudahy, he gave me his card with his email, home address, and home phone #. Now, I emailed him a note and he wrote me a nice note back;BUT - I hesitate in putting it out here on the board,because I really didn't ask if was okay or not,and would feel funny doing so. Now, I gave it to Dave P., because him and Mr Cudahy might have business to discuss, but that has been the extant of it...I feel its just like a phone number: if someone has given you their phone number, they want you to call!
I recently found out something interesting regarding online anonymity. As many of us might recall, there was a recent thread about "Commuter X" and her I Hate the LIRR site. Ms. X, if we can call her that, keeps her identity secret, not even revealing it during a newspaper interview (the one that showed her picture, from the rear). Yet by going to www.networksolutions.com and doing a "whois" search on www.ihatethelirr.com, I was able to discover her name, address, and telephone number.
Doesn't a person have to register with such a service in
order to be listed? That is, if you don't register you
can't be found.
[Doesn't a person have to register with such a service in
order to be listed? That is, if you don't register you
can't be found.]
Network Solutions is the domain-name registry for the United States. As far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), if you want to register a domain name, as in www.myname.com, you have to provide an address and telephone number. This information is available to anyone who does a whois search. I recall reading that a few years ago, when the Web was still young, several celebrities started their own sites and found out later that their top-secret addresses and telephone numbers were accessable to the public.
First, people's names in blue are the ones who typed in their e-mail address when making a post/reply to post. Seems to me if someone doesn't put an e-mail address their, no blue will show. So, you can't just "click" on the name and contact them via direct e-mail.
Now-- regarding your question as to "ettiquette" of contacting someone via e-mail: I feel that if someone posts their e-mail address, or gives you their e-mail address, that they are saying it's okay to contact them via e-mail.
I don't feel e-mail is all THAT personal as giving out someone's phone number or address. Nobody's gonna come knocking at your door at 2;30 a.m., or ringing your phone then either -- you can read/reply to your e-mail at your leisure. You can always delete it without reading it. And many of us can "killfile" any sender than sends stuff we don't want to receive. You wanna send me e-mail, I don't mind. But if it starts to become a bother, I just put sender's address in the killfile and don't ever have to deal with it. It's a LOT simpler than someone having your home address or your telephone number.
Yeah, like telemarketers.
I have received private emails from several regular Subtalkers, and with the exception of one or two messages, have always responded promptly. Nearly all had a friendly tone to them, and I enjoy the correspondance. In short, I have no objection if someone wants to contact me privately. I don't take offense if no response is received, and hope the feeling is mutual if I don't reply.
I think in the case i raised, my objection was that the author of the E-mail was not a person on Subtalk. She introduced herself as a friend of Paul S. (the original poster about the racist train operator). I post my E-mail address on Subtalk because I welcome all messages (well almost all) from Subtalkers. However, this person is not a Subtalker and so I viewed her E-mail as an unwanted intrusion. Nit-picking?. perhaps. But those are my feelings. Incidently, there have been no further private messages from Paul or Chantal. I was hoping to find out how well I did in her Sociology class.
No. 6 train @ 23rd St. station was featured on the show last night.
Everything looked real. Anybody else see it?
Chuck Greene
eventually they would get it right
Yup, first time I heard them call the dispatcher as "CENTRAL" too...
While my wife was flying to Nevada on Friday morning to help our older daughter with her new baby I was headed to Staunton, Virginia to attend Parents' Weekend at our younger daughter's college. Train 79, the Carolinian, was ten minutes late into Newark but wasn't nearly as crowded as it sometimes has been. It maintained a pretty good pace to Washington, filling up nearly to capacity at Wilmington but emptying significantly at BWI. Train 51, the Cardinal, left Washington on schedule at 11:20 AM with a good crowd in the Superliner coach. I had eaten a light lunch in Washington Union Station prior to boarding, as I didn't know there would be an open diner on the train (last November they had one but it was restricted to sleeping car passengers). More people boarded at Alexandria, mostly sleeping car passengers making a cross-platform transfer from train 92 (the Silver Star, running behind schedule as usual. The next stop was Manassas, where many more people boarded; the Superliner was nearly full. Among the passengers who boarded was a young man carrying only a briefcase who seemed rather nervous. He stashed the briefcase in the overhead rack across the aisle from me and disappeared quickly into the pseudo-dome car ahead. Once the conductors had made their rounds, he appeared back in my coach, sitting in various different seats until such time as their rightful occupants returned and he had to move on. Every time a conductor appeared he headed in a different direction. At Culpeper station he disappeared for a while but reappeared a few miles later, sitting in a seat that belonged to a family group headed for White Sulphur Springs. When they returned the adults confronted him (he had been in another one of their seats, in the row behind, earlier) while the two children disappeared in opposite directions, each returning a minute later with a conductor in tow. The conductors quickly escorted him downstairs, but from what discussion took place before they did I have to assume that he hadn't troubled himself to obtain a ticket prior to boarding. He was last seen in the company of two police officers on the platform in Charlottesville, his briefcase in the custody of one of the officers. Between Culpeper and Charlottesville, and also from there to Staunton, we were periodically affected by slow orders (15 mph) due to the danger of flash flooding, and indeed there were fields covered by water quite close to the tracks. Even with all of that, however, the train was only 20 minutes late into Staunton, as the engineer made up time where he could (we were a rockin' and a swayin' as we headed up and down the mountain - we were doubleheaded, unusual for the Cardinal when it doesn't have mail, and those big monsters were playing Alco - I would have loved to be in the lead sleeper with a camera).
The return trip on Sunday was interesting - first time I've ridden train 94, the Old Dominion. Amtrak's schedule for the Cardinal and connections on the Corridor doesn't get passengers to Newark until after the last NJCL train has departed for the evening, so my daughter took me to Richmond (just over 100 miles each way) to catch 94. We were at the station about an hour early, and watched 92 pull in about 10 minutes late. It was delayed there for some reason and didn't leave until it was nearly 45 minutes behind. 94 was right on its heels, and we left within 5 minutes of our scheduled departure. At Lorton I observed the nearly-completed new turntable for the Auto Train equipment. We left DC less than 10 minutes late and caught 92 at Philadelphia. It pulled out nearly simultaneously and was put ahead of us, but when we approached Trenton they put it in the hole and allowed us to enter the station first. We managed to stay ahead of it, even with our stop at Metropark (which 92 doesn't make) and arrived in Newark about 20 minutes behind schedule and about 10 minutes before 92. 94 was packed all the way from Richmond, emptying significantly at Washington but filling up again with new passengers. From Baltimore north there were many standees, despite 94 being an all-reserved train (many passengers holding unreserved tickets, not valid on 94, had boarded anyway). The regular coaches were refurbished Northeast Direct, tight seating but with electrical outlets, which came in handy as I was called on a business matter and was able to plug my laptop in rather than having to rely on its battery. They also only had one cafe car on the train, as far as I could tell, and when I first tried to get a snack the line was at least 40 people long. (There were still half a dozen people in line when I went back around 3 PM, desperate for a Pepsi - at least they had stocked well for the number of customers they had.)
The return down the NJCL was also interesting - we were held at Woodbridge for 25 minutes because a preceding train had "hit some debris on the tracks". Not sure what the debris was but it must have been substantial, as there were three city-bound trains right behind each other from Perth Amboy to South Amboy - and on Sunday it's hourly service.
Anyway, if the patronage level I observed this weekend is any indication, Amtrak is certainly a success with the riding public. And the other moral of the story is: if you're taking 94, spring the extra few bucks for business class. Your legs will thank you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You know this flipping of burgers image sounds familiar. I think that was an image that heated up things on BusTalk last week.. Speaking of the real world---if SubTalk is an example of the real world there are times where I have failed and others here have failed to look at issues fairly or seriously. I mean I goof around here with some of my screw ball ideas. And I think some of the up and back about the Mayor has shed more heat than light , and I am no great admirer of him. I'm not a great admirer of the college academic who blows off his hot air theories. But sometimes you can get some light on an issue that in the real world just generates heat. Putting my little bit of hot air blow-off aside, the hamburger flipping image is really loaded and dangerous.
Yes, the image burger flipping can be inflamatory. That's why some people like to use it. One of my counterparts is fond of telling employees that if they question his instructions, likely they'll wind up asking "Would you like that super-sized?"
However, while it may be inflamatory to project that 'burger flipping' image, it is equally inflamatory for those in college to suppose that they are automatically more insightful or more intelligent than the rest of 'us'. In the case of Ms. Dyer (my new best buddy and fan) I'm not overwhelmed that she is in Columbia University and I'm not impressed by her threat to discuss my posting in her sociology class. The truth is that they'd likely find me somewhat less than unique. Her fascinating character study of a 'neanderthal civil servant' would likely turn out to be a large yawn. Afterall, most of us go to college - even if it's only the 13th grade. So while I may not really like that image of 'flipping burgers', sometimes it helps remind those soaring college students of how really close to the ground, they are.
The problem is college is so "popular" that it's almost become mandatory. For instance, a local pharmacy hires only college students to work there. So what is happening is they are so busy studying, and their life at college, that they don't show up for work half the time.
Perhaps if the pharmacy had hired just regular people, who have gotten laid off from retail jobs before who just need a job, they wouldn't have these problems. People (and employers) should stop frowning on people who don't go to college. College isn't for everybody.
Not going to college doesn't mean they can't function at a mid-level job. Heck, even radio stations now will only hire DJ's with college experience/in college currently. What the hell does that have to do with spinning records?
I just hope the TA won't start preferring college students for driving buses, or running trains,etc. College is a place for go getters and over-achievers, the rest of us shouldn't need to go there to earn decent living.
I doubt any radio stations still employ recordosauri.
Maybe not records - they're using CDs and the occasional tape nowadays - but the job still exists. I occasionally listen to Y107.1 and they're definately not using a remote feed (except Sunday AM), nor does New Jersey 101.5 on those rare occasions when they do play music instead of nonstop yap.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Y107 is actually a multicast (they transmit from several different locations on the same frequency (call letters WWXY, WYNY, WWZY), hoping to cover a large geographic area) There was a story in today's daily news about consolidation in the radio industry, and that while syndicated programs are growing, they don't expect the 'death' of the local DJ.
-Hank
So can you really get fired for _questioning_ directions? (in a non emergency situation...)
I don't follow BusTalk so I haven't been exposed to what's floating in the air over there, but the burger-flipping image isn't too far from reality for a lot of college students these days. Only those who apply themselves with extreme dedication will be able to find degree-related employment in the more esoteric fields, such as sociology. And, for that matter, only those who apply themselves will be able to find decent jobs period. This past weekend I attended Parents' Weekend at Mary Baldwin College, a small liberal-arts college for women in Staunton, Virginia. My younger daughter is a senior there. The college is, in many respects, a traditional Southern "finishing school" for young women in search of husbands first and an education second, but it does have an excellent academic reputation and can also boast of two programs that distinguish it from other schools of its ilk: the Virginia Women's Institute for Leadership, a military-prep program similar to that of VMI, and the Program for the Exceptionally Gifted, which recruits the brightest young women from around the country to attend college early by skipping some or all of high school. The young women in the PEG program are admitted based not only on their academic abilities, as measured by SAT scores and grades, but also based on their apparent maturity. My daughter is a member of that program; she entered at age 14 in August 1996, becoming a freshman in college rather than a freshman in high school. The year she entered there were 23 freshmen; six of those 23 remain at MBC. Five left during the first two years for a variety of academic and personal reasons; eleven transferred to other, larger colleges after their sophomore year; one departed at the end of her junior year after a major violation of the Honor Code. Five of the six PEGs remaining in the class of 2000 are planning to attend graduate or professional school next fall (my daughter is in the process of applying to law school); one is planning to take an additional year of undergraduate study abroad before going on to grad school. These six girls, along with their VWIL colleagues, all have a clear and demonstrated dedication to their education and their future. But many of the students there do not. As I attended the day's events I had many opportunities to hear what different students (both traditional and PEG) had to say, mostly to each other in conversations going on around me but some that I talked to while waiting for my daughter at different points during the day. I was struck by how little a grasp on reality many of these girls have. Some have no concept of what things cost; others are sure they have all the answers to everything in life. One in particular that struck me was a freshman, seated behind me in the hall where the Founder's Day program was to be held, talking to her mother and her mother's significant other. It seems that she is already making plans to transfer to UVA after the end of her first year so she can move in with her boyfriend, a sophomore there, once his divorce is final. It was also telling that the speaker at Founder's Day, a member of the class of '73, asked the seniors for a show of hands about their plans post-graduation. 50% responded "I don't know", 10% responded "grad school", 10% responded "work", and fully 30% responded "get married". Looks like a lot of burger-flippers to me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I don't follow BusTalk so I haven't been exposed to what's floating in the air over there, but the burger-flipping image isn't too far from reality for a lot of college students these days. Only those
who apply themselves with extreme dedication will be able to find degree-related employment in the more esoteric fields, such as sociology. And, for that matter, only those who apply themselves will
be able to find decent jobs period.]
College students frequently are stricken with the "it-can't-happen-to-me" syndrome. Too many of them cling to the belief that they'll somehow manage to get high-paying jobs even though they're studying what are essentially unmarketable subjects and even though they've heard about all their predecessors who are struggling to survive in the job market. I suppose it could be a matter of simple maturity - or the lack thereof. While I'm sure there are many level-headed college students who are more mature than the average adult, in my experience they're relatively few and far between. It might not be a bad idea for young people to spend a year or two working in the "real world" before going on to college. High school to college might be too abrupt a transition for many people. Heck, it was for me, almost 25 years ago.
Yeah, what does a person with a degree in Economics do after graduation. Either teach high school or manage a maintenance facility for a major NY City subway system......
[Yeah, what does a person with a degree in Economics do after graduation. Either teach high school or manage a maintenance facility for a major NY City subway system......]
LOL. Seriously, though, economics isn't what I'd call an unmarketable college major. I recall hearing that an advanced degree in economics is actually better than an MBA in terms of getting well-paying jobs. I was thinking more about the resolutely non-technical fields like literature, history, and political science (and law school, which largely has become an extension of liberal arts college).
Peter, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for stating that law school is largely an extension of liberal arts college, seeing as how my daughter is in the process of applying. Certainly there's a lot of logic and critical thinking involved in the law, and those skills also form the basis of much liberal arts education, but beyond that what are the similarities?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Peter, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for stating that law school is largely an extension of liberal arts college, seeing as
how my daughter is in the process of applying. Certainly there's a lot of logic and critical thinking involved in the law, and those
skills also form the basis of much liberal arts education, but beyond that what are the similarities?]
Mainly in the sense that law school attracts many technophobic types. There's no math, no science, and little computer use. Law school is therefore seen as a "refuge" for some people with liberal arts backgrounds. Obviously, many people go to law school for entirely different reasons, but the technophobic factor is an important one.
I'm not saying your daughter should change her career plans, but while there's still time she should do some careful investigating as to the job opportunities she'll have after law school. One thing to keep in mind is that all of these "have you been injured?" ads by lawyers wouldn't be there if the competition weren't so intense.
International law, probably human-rights oriented - interestingly enough, while many students headed in that direction have the "cause" first and see law as a way to help, she was law-oriented first and found her cause second.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So many people go into law school with specific intentions, hoping to do very exciting things. Then they come out HEAVILY in debt, right when they want to start families, and have to get to work as a corporate lawyer. Its the world famous law school trap.
I am a graduate student in chemistry. A lot of people end up here because they do not know what else to do. The only difference is that we are not afraid of math, and our job prospects are better. But they may be better with a masters than a PhD. But if you want to make money, graduate school (maybe not professional school) is about the worst way to get there. The only reason someone should be going for an advanced degree is if they really really want to learn the subject. Sure, make sure you can get a job with that degree, but its a stupid way to try to make money.
In my daughter's case there's also the issue of age. She is a senior in college but is only 17 years old. For her to go out with a BA (in psychology, double minor in political science and philosophy) and try to get a job at that age would be nearly impossible. She's interested in international law, and scored a 169 on the LSAT (98th percentile), hence her choice of direction. Three schools have already written offering her admission and she hasn't even applied (and isn't interested in those particular schools either) so I would have to assume that, at least in her case, the job prospects will be excellent, assuming that she continues to perform at the current level (and I see no reason why she wouldn't).
I have to agree with you about the value of a regular advanced degree for most people, though. I did graduate work in history and library science and where did that get me? To a job carrying a toolbag for IBM (later retrained as a programmer, evolving into a project manager) and a sixteen-year career there that ended in the downsizing of '94. Now I work for a major telecommunications firm as a project manager, still getting additional training on the job, learning as I go (and having a blast, I might add - a much better company to work for than IBM was during my last few years there). I still enjoy history, though, although nowadays it's transportation and engineering history rather than colonial American history that I read.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[So many people go into law school with specific intentions, hoping to do very exciting things. Then they come out HEAVILY in debt, right when they want to start families, and have to get to work as a corporate lawyer. Its the world famous law school trap.]
Actually, the trap's often even worse - the graduates *can't* get jobs as corporate lawyers (or any other kind). Consider that the state of Connecticut hires law school graduates as per diem courtroom clerks. It's a lousy job by any standards; it pays $77 per day (unchanged in 10 years), no benefits except for health insurance after six months, no pay for holidays (and courts take plenty of holidays), no sick days, no vacation days. Maximum earnings under these circumstances don't much exceed $18,000 per year. It must be a nightmare to fill these jobs in today's low-unemployment economy, right? Guess again. The courthouses have absolutely no shortage of applicants, by no means all of whom are recent graduates. You'd be surprised at the number of experienced attorneys who beg for one of these garbage jobs, frequently after their legal practices fail.
I'll come right out and say something - any person contemplating law school is making a big mistake, unless he or she has been admitted to one of the Top Ten law schools (U.S. News lists these every year). There are just so many other marketable things to study, that law school is a costly blunder.
I've often asked myself that question: am I really better off with a master's degree? Quite frankly, so far my answer has been no, which is why I never pursued it. Had I stayed in the education field, which I left 12 years ago, I probably would have. As it stands, I like to say I'm a musician who had to get a job in the real world. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life waiting for the phone to ring every day with another teaching assignment, and many school districts have cut music programs. Plus discipline has gone down the tubes in many schools. Music is still my first love (next to the subway, of course), and I've never put my drumsticks and timpani mallets away since leaving college. And I never get tired of talking about music and subways.
In the words of Yogi Berra, I came to a fork in the road and took it.
I do agree that those who major in things like Philosophy or Ancient Civilizations will not have as many job possiblities as more "mainstream" career majors.
Doug aka BMTman
I was thinking more about the resolutely non-technical fields like literature, history, and political science (and law school, which largely has become an extension of liberal arts college).
Political science its uses: consider groups like the Rand Corporation, political think-tanks, the diplomatic corps, the CIA, and other intelligence gathering bodies. Having a good understanding of government practices is very useful when it comes to estimating exactly what country XYZ will do next.
Even sociology grads can find jobs as social workers....
If you want to see really useless degrees, look no further than anthropology, history, and anything prefixed with BFA.
[[I was thinking more about the resolutely non-technical fields like literature, history, and political science (and law school, which largely has become an extension of liberal arts college).]
[Political science its uses: consider groups like the Rand Corporation, political think-tanks, the diplomatic corps, the CIA, and other intelligence gathering bodies. Having a good understanding of
government practices is very useful when it comes to estimating exactly what country XYZ will do next.]
Most places like that prefer technical or possibly business degrees. That's not to say that political science coursework, or even a double major, is bad, but it's not enough by itself.
[Even sociology grads can find jobs as social workers....]
Probably not without going on for a MSW (which can be done without a sociology undergrad degree).
Maybe if we taught history better, we need fewer sociologists...
Or a person with an Education degree-- working as a Station Agent, trying to educate customers about no trains due to G.O. or WHat is $1.50?
I do enjoy working for NYCT- even the strange customers. If I wrote a book it would probably be rejected as stranger than fiction.
You have an education degree? So do I. Where did I wind up? Customer service. What does that entail? Educating people for the most part.
It was for my older son also. He struggled through his freshman year at Duke last year. Now, he's taking a semester, or possibly a year, off, working as a newspaper reporter for a chain of small-town local papers. The pay is lousy but the experience is great. Hopefully, he'll grow up too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
heypaul,
I may not flip burgers, but I have been known to flip the bird ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Rim shot! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HeyPaul,
What does this have to do with subways or mass transit in general ?
There should be some tie in, especially if your STARTing a thread !
My posting came out of a concern about what I saw ahead right on the tracks of SubTalk. I think I have seen you post on BusTalk, and I felt we were moving in a direction that BusTalk experienced over the last two weeks centered on whether it was Nova or TMC built a certain series of buses. There were some misunderstandings or understandings of what was said that caused a lot of nastiness. I think we need to keep an eye out on our own tracks here. Paul
With all the bickering in SubTalk about politics, mayors, burger flipping, college, baseball, etc.-everything except transit, doesn't anyone realize today 10/4/99 is EXACTLY thirty years since the last "Q type" car ran down Myrtle Avenue to Jay Street!!!! And there is less than 10 minutes left in the day. celebrated by going down to my basement and looking at the cane seat I stole borrowed from the train that day and read my Newsday article of the following day (the 5th) with its full spread pictures.
Jeff,
Let's see if my memory serves me correctly: The article in Newsday (on the front page) for the demise of the Myrtle Ave el read on the front page: "Today the Myrtle Ave el goes," (separated by a picture of the el) "Under the el, traffic etc" (followed by another picture of traffic under the el including a city bus).
BTW, LIU ran a nice illustrated article in their magazine just before the demise of the el, anyone out there have a copy?
MIke H
Sarge, was that section of the el from Broadway down to Jay Street known for being able to look from the train's windows into people's apartments along the way. I seem to remember that it ran very close to people's windows. Hey I'm going to put a post up What's your Favorite Elevated Line, Past or Present, for Peeping into other people's lives? And what was the Most Remarkable thing you ever saw and can write about for public viewing ?
IIRC, not any more than any other el such as the remaining Myrtle N of Bway or the Bway El itself.
October 3rd, 1963 (or 1961?): Demolition of the late, great Pennsylvania Station began.
--Mark
1963. When I saw the first pictures I cried.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To this day I REFUSE to get of a train in the basement of a sports arena.
To destroy Pennsylvania Station is one of the greatest crimes against culture of the 20th Century.
Also, I cried the tear for the end of the era of Wooden cars and Iron Men.
YES! The only Penn Station in the NYC area is in NEWARK. Any rail services I need will be done at Flatbush Avenue, Jamaica, Newark, Hoboken or Grand Central. DOWN WITH MADISON SQUARE GARBAGE (BTW, that's what I call the basement station too).
It was just as big a mistake to retire the Triplexes when they did. I know the reason given was fleet standardization, but to send equipment to slaughter when it was still running great is beyond me.
If the excuse was fleet standardization, why did they start buying 75 foot cars only 6 years later?
The idea there was 8 75-footers would be the service equivalent of 10 60-footers. Fewer trucks per train, fewer cars for the same train length = reduced maintenance costs. On the flipside, it meant fewer doors per train which slowed down loading and unloading, and having to ensure these cars could operate on existing lines, which meant shaving tunnel catwalks on curves.
I understand the benefits of 75 foot cars, but if standardization was the excuse for retiring the Triplexes, then buying those 75 foot cars defeats that purpose. There must have been another reason as to why they were retired.
It could be that the TA looked at the Triplexes as being nonstandard because they were articulating units. At the time they were withdrawn from service, in 1965, 60 feet was considered the standard length for a subway car on the IND and BMT, BMT standards notwithstanding.
Being that as it may, I'm still sticking by my guns that the TA's decision to yank the Triplexes when they did was a big mistake. They could easily have gotten another 10-15 years of service out of them.
And the line they wanted to close in the 90's, the Franklin shuttle survived. Good. Because today we know about the benefits of electric transit better than we knew 30 years ago. On 10/4/69, nobody worried about air pollution, because the phrase probably wasn't even invented yet. Diesel fuel was dirt cheap, even while adjusting for inflation. There weren't as many cars and trucks on the street then as there is now. If the line was able to be held together for a few more years then, the tide would have turned to invest the capital and it would have been saved. RIP.
October 4,1969; The last Rt MJ Myrtle Avenue Local leaves Bridge-Jay Streets at 12:13AM with Q-Types 1619 ABC,1616 CBA and arrived at Metropolitan Avenue at 12:43AM. It was followed by an empty (backup) train with Q-Types 1613ABC,1610 CBA.
There were two post-abandonement fan trips using Q-Types 1629 ABC and 1616 CBA. Saturday, October 4 for the National ERA and Sunday, October 5 for the Trolley Museum of New York.
This is from an article in the October,1969 issue of the ERA NYD Bulletin.
Farewell old friend
Larry,RedbirdR33
Given what we all know -- and what the MTA officials would be expected to know -- over the last 30 years, as far as proposed lines that were never built is concerned, do you think if they had to do it all over again they would have shut down the Myrtle El, Third Ave. El and Culver Shuttle?
It would be nice to see someone from the MTA (current or former) admit it was a mistake, but I doubt you could ever get anyone to admit tearing down any el before an adequate replacement is in place was a miscalculation.
[Given what we all know -- and what the MTA officials would be expected to know -- over the last 30 years, as far as proposed lines that were never built is concerned, do you think if they had to do
it all over again they would have shut down the Myrtle El, Third Ave. El and Culver Shuttle?]
My guess is that Culver and Myrtle would still be around, but the Manhattan portion of the Third Avenue El would be history. There was just too much of a clamor in favor of "opening up" Third Avenue. As development proceeded eastward, no one would have wanted an old El structure in the way. I would imagine that the Bronx section would still be around.
Obviously my own opinion...
Franklin was saved by strong community opposition with a little bit of the race card thrown in.
I don't think Myrtle would be taken down now. I believe community opposition and a good sell job that it was an important link to MetroTech and downtown Brooklyn would keep it going. Add that to the fact that only a few years before its demise, the TA was actually planning a purchase of lighter-weight equipment for both Myrtle and the Bronx 3rd Ave. el. So the TA took advantage of a window in time when they could get away with it to pull down those two els.
As to the 3rd Avenue. If it were standing and running in Manhattan today, I think there would still be pressure to take it down. But I don't think the TA would get away with it today without building the 2nd Avenue subway first.
Remember though that it would be an exceedingly old structure, and not in as good shape as the demolished 2nd Avenue el, so it would undoubtedly have had to have had rehabilitation to still be running today.
Lastly, Culver would be a useful connector if the track connection with the IND line had been made, but I think the ridership was so poor there wouldn't have been sufficient justification for keeping it.
I agree that the Myrtle Ave. line would still be useful today. Downtown Brooklyn along Myrtle wouldn't be as desolate as it looks today. As for the Third, I doubt the Manhattan part would have survived, considering the community pressure to get rid of it, it's age and poor physical condition, and it's inability to handle the amount of East Side passangers that are there today. The Culver line should have been kept simply because it provided another way for F train riders to access the rest of the BMT lines without having to go all the way down to Coney Island or all the way up to 4th Avenue (very annoying if you want to get to Neptune Ave from 62nd st!). It could also have had thru service re-instituted by routing the M line off the West End line and sending it to Ditmas Ave.
It makes you wonder why the entire Myrtle Ave. line wasn't upgraded to handle steel subway equipment. Had it been upgraded, it might still be around today. If I had to make a guess, I would say there may have been concern that the Brooklyn Bridge couldn't handle subway trains.
IIRC, the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave. el was falling apart by the time it closed. The R-12s assigned to it ran in four-car trains instead of five, and had their acceleration rates slowed down to reduce strain on the elevated structure.
Steve, Don't forget that the Myrtle Ave "el" survived the Brooklyn Bridge portion by more than 25 years. I'm not exactly sure but I think anything beyond Bridge-Jay St was dismantled around 1942.
I believe the el was cut back to Jay St. in 1944.
That was the same year the Sands St. terminal burned down, right?
Either that or the elevated structure itself sustained fire damage.
I was close, it was still 25 years.
That's another gripe I have.
The trolleys continued to run on the rapid transit tracks over the Brooklyn bridge. They (the City) should have kept the connection to the Myrtle Ave line utilizing the El cars and/or utilized the trolleys/light rail on the Myrtle Ave structure. I never quite understood the removal of the Lexington Ave line either, which could have figured in the light rail concept.
And for that matter, the 3rd Ave line in the Bronx could have been slated for light rail usage instead of removal.
I'm sure the Lexington was removed because it was redundant, because it paralelled the Myrtle Ave. line. Both the Third and Myrtle Ave. els could have been retained had the MTA thought it worthy to buy lightweight subway cars. The technology existed back in the 1930's to build lightweight, all-metal rapid transit cars.
The Lexington L was no more redundant than a Second Avenue subway would be, so close to the Lex (subway). The Fulton and Myrtle Lines are a decent distance apart by the time they reach Broadway Brooklyn.
The Lex also provided direct service from Downtown Brooklyn to portions of the Broadway-Jamaica Line. After 1940, it provided the only direct service from Downtown Brooklyn or Downtown Manhattan to the Broadway Junction and the remainder of the Fulton Street L.
Simple truth is that when the private companies operated most of the system, the City insisted that they maintain every drop of service possible. Once the City took over it snipped with a free hand.
Although I'm fascinated with the Lex as I work a block away from where it joined the Bway El at Lexington & Bway and I try to find any remnant but haven't been able to find anything, I must be the devil's advocate and say it was kinda close to the Myrtle (redundancy) with basically the same streets as stations. Also, although not one seat, there was service to the Bway El from downtown Bklyn. You just had to take the Myrtle and change at Bway. (or go a little further and change for the Canarsie Lne)
One thing I'm surprised about is they never replaced it with a bus as they usually do when they discontinue an el. The nearest bus line parallel to Lexington is on Gates Av, 2 blocks south.
The G Crosstown took the place of some of the route of the Myrtle and Lex els. By the time the city was building the new subway, the els were already 40+ years old, and were nowheres near being able to take new heavier cars. Besides, the city itself had grown beyond from the original 1880's routing scheme.
Probably one reason why no direct bus service was substituted for the Lex el was that the portion of Grand Ave between Myrtle and Lafayette was taken over by Pratt and two different housing projects.
I'm sure Mayor LaGuardia had a lot to do with dismantling of the els. He didn't care for them, plain and simple.
I'm sure he did with the ones that were shut down on the very first day of city control (5th Ave, Fulton, in Brooklyn and the 9th in Manhattan). There was also a picture of Laguardia in the post about 2 weeks ago ripping up the ceremonial "first rail" of the 2nd Ave. el. I can understand wanting to rid Manhattan of the els, as they were expected to be replaced by subways, and the 9th in Manhattan, Fulton and 5th in Brooklyn, which paralled modern subway lines. But no new subway line has been planned to replace the Myrtle or Third Ave. in the Bronx. They should still be running.
There was a Myrtle Ave.-Central Ave. line in the IND Phase 2 scheme of things. And, of course, the 2nd Ave. line was supposed to replace the 3rd Ave. el.
In Manhattan. But I don't remember seeing any of the modern 1968 plans for the 2nd Ave. line to run along the Third Ave. route in the Bronx. I was under the impression that it was to connect to the Pelham line north of Hunts Point.
10.12/99
LaGuardia had the same hatred for the trolleys.
Bill Newkirk
The Myrtle didn't connect to any other subway line south of Broadway (north of Broadway it was rebuilt for heavier subway cars), so rebuilding it to heavier standars would be a waste of money.
But this is not an excuse for why the Myrtle or Bronx 3rd Ave. lines had to be closed down. The BMT had lightweight, aluminum cars running on it's els as early as the 1930's (Bluebirds?). IIRC, the MTA was toying with the idea of buying lightweight, modern cars for both these lines (R39) but they thought that replacing them with a bus would be cheaper.
It wouldn't have been the Myrtle with newer cars. The thing that made that line so much fun to ride were the "Q" cars. With newer trains it would have been just another el.
It wouldn't have been the Myrtle with newer cars [instead of the Q's]
You see, Jeff, it's all a matter of perspective...
For me, it wasn't Myrtle without the gate cars.
For others, I'm sure it wasn't Myrtle without the Lex connection and run over the Brooklyn Bridge.
I'd like to see Myrtle back, even if they ran R-143s on it.
I'm with you on those gate cars!
Just as the A line isn't the same without the R-10s.
To be honest, those Q cars were at the end of their ropes in 69. I mean, for god sakes, they were made from wood! Even if the el was kept, those cars needed to be scrapped (for firewood, I guess).
Do you live in a wood house? Do you tear it down when it gets to be, oh, 60 or so years old?
I can guarantee you there was hardly a piece of original wood left in the Q's. Wood cars had their wood replaced, just like your back deck or your fence.
The limiting factor in a wooden car's life was equipment.
Well no, but my house isn't on wheels, always moving around ...
Well no, but my house isn't on wheels, always moving around ...
Even better! It would be harder for termites to catch your house if it were always on the move!
LOL...
I was surpised to find recently that the transfer passage between the B and N lines at New Utrecht Ave./62nd St. still has a wooden floor. Are there any other places on the system where wood floors are still in use?
There are a few wooden mezzanines left in the system, especially on the Broadway el in Brooklyn.
Also on the new Lots Line and the 2/5 to East tremont. Read Peggy's line by line- she mentions those stations which have wood mezzanines and or floors
I remember 242 on the 1 has a wood mezzanine.
I'm a little confused as far as subway car weight on the Bronx portion of the Third Ave. El.
If the structure couldn't handle heavier subway equipment, then how did the R12s operate on this line. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that R36s ran on this line for a very short period of time.
The section south of Fordham Rd. (the existing line below the original Bronx Park terminal for the "Surburban Line") was built to earlier, lighter IRT el standards. The R12's operated on this line, but at lower speeds along the older sections. EVen so, they damaged the structure to the point that it would have had to be reinforced if it was kept past the 1973 closing date.
The section from Fordham Rd. along Webster Av. to Gun Hill Rd. was built around the same time as the White Plains Rd. line and could carry heavy subway cars. This is why the middle track along this newer section of the line was still in use to the very end.
You mentioned that the middle track from Fordham Road up to Gun Hill Road was in use up to the end.... it would seem to me that the portion of the middle track from Williamsbridge Station to Gun Hill Road would have to be used to reverse the trains.... But what about the part of the third track from Williamsbridge south to Fordham Road... what was that part used for besides train layups?
An inquiring mind would like to know...
Best wishes to all
Morton Belcher
Best wishes to all...
From what I've seen in pictures (the line closed when I was only 1 year old and i never rode it) that track was used for some layups. The middle track came to an end at a bumper block just south of the 200th St. station, which is where the newer el structure met the older.
When the Manhatten structure was closed, there was no more express service on the line. The bumper was installed at Mosholu Pkwy when the Xovers were removed from Fordham Rd. around 1957 or so. The center track was always used for lay-ups even before express service was terminated. However, Mosholu Parkway was always the yard limit.
I do not know if there were lay-ups around or south of Tremont, as there was a yard a 177th St, which disappeared around 1951 when the Bronx Park Terminal was shut down. This shut down coincided with Bronx Zoo terminal shut down on the White Plains Rd line, the removal of the Willis Ave structure (Bergen Cutoff) and service south of Chatham SQ to South Ferry and City Hall.
What exactly was the "Bergen cutoff"?
Willis Avenue Structure apparently.
There were two connections from the 3 Avenue El to the Contract I West Farms Line in the South Bronx. The oldest of these openned on November 26,1904 from the 149 Street Station along Westchester Av to connect with the West Farms Line. The Bergen Avenue Cutoff openned on July 1,1917 from the upper level of the 143 Street Station and ran along a private right-of-way to 149 St and then a short distance on Bergen Av connecting at grade into the original Westchester Av Connection. Service over both branches was discontinued on November 5,1946 and the Bergen Av Cytoff was torn down. The Westchester Av Connection was retained for non-revenue moves up to about 1952.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Would this explain the remains I see of steel support pillars that looked like they held up train tracks over the 2/5 line as it descends into the 3rd Ave, 149th St. station? I wasn't aware that the present IRT line was connected to the 3rd. Ave. el in this area, only the connection at Gun Hill RD.
Chris: Thats correct. Going westbound you can see the remains of the two track lead into the Westchester Av Line, the Bergen Cutoff turned of the Westchester Av line about one block before 3 Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think the closure of the Brooklyn Navy Yard had the biggest impact on the demise of the Myrtle Avenue. By the time I rode it regularly, after school in 1968 and 1969 there were very few times that the train was crowded, you could just about be guaranteed a seat. Just like the NX, Sea Beach Super Express, an empty seat meant a death knell.
As for the Culver, I think the biggest problem for the operation in a modern system, would have been the crossing at grade required to mate up with the IND Culver Service. In the 1970's, as it would be now, a grade crossing was an anathema. The Culver Shuttle too had very low ridership in the late 60's and early 70's.
The closing of the Culver Shuttle was a classic case of how to get rid of a line.
First, they stub-ended all service at Ditmas Avenue, even though there was no necessity to do so. They did not hold (at that time) D trains at Ditmas for transfers or vv. So they made it as annoying as possible for former BMT Culver riders to get to any station after Ditmas.
This began the decline of ridership. Next, they cut late service back to 36th Street/4th Avenue. For a while they contined the Culver-Nassau service from Ditmas Ave., but as fewer people rode this (because of the difficulty of getting to stations south of Ditmas) they cut it back to the shuttle from 9th Ave. to Ditmas.
For a while they ran two trains, keeping two tracks open. The final blow was cutting the shuttle to a single track, so all service was by a single train. And to add insult to injury, nighttime West End service was cut back to 36th/4th. So if you wanted to go from anyplace north of 36th/4th (something close to 100% of riders) you had to change at 36th/4th and again at 9th Ave.
So surprise! Low ridership.
Yes my folks and I were riding the "MJ" earlier in the evening, October 3, 1969. We went from Bway-Myrtle to Bridge-Jay, back to Metropolitan, back to Bridge-Jay, back to Metropolitan again and got off at Bway-Myrtle. We got our souvenirs from one of the 1619 cars.
Wayne
Wayne: I just missed the closing of the Myrtle Avenue El not returning from South Dakota until October 15. I did however get to ride the last of the old IRT eqiptment on the 3 Avenue El later that month.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I still have the cane seat I too as a souvenir from a"Q" type car that very day. I carried it home on the "J" to Sutphin (also since taken down), the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hempstead Bus Comp (pre MSBA) Mack Bus to East Meadow. You could say I had a seat the whole way home, a one seat ride!!!
Or you could say you pulled up a chair. Rim shot!
Of course, back in 1969, the J was still the QJ.
And to think I was in the city on October 4, in Saturday school. Looking back, I think I can remember seeing or hearing something about that line's closing. I do remember seeing the Qs once from the railfan window of a QJ train and thought, man, those cars look old.
A stark contrast to July of 1965, when we were in the city on the 21st and 22nd, not knowing the Triplexes were saying sayonara on the 23rd. I didn't see any of them, though.
Being in Cleveland Ohio at the time, and 8 years old, I was not able to ride the Myrt's last. However, ten years later, I was attending Pratt Institute, and hoisted a couple of beers in her honor from my dorm room overlooking the avenue.
Later on in the week, I spent some time over at Conrad Milster's place viewing slides he took of the line during operations (including the snowstorm when it was the only el running), and the dismantling of the structure. Conrad later gave me tape of the last movement of the Q's out of Fresh Pond.
I have BRIDGE-JAY STS and METROPOLITAN direction signs from the local station installed in my apartment "geographically correct".
There was a movie made in the late 1960's called "The Night They Raided Minsky's." It was the story of a Pennsylvania Amish Girl who ended up performing at Minsky's Burlesque House in New York. The openning credits have numerous views of the Q-Types running on the Myrtle Avenue El.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/06/99
That's funny you should mention that. The last time I saw the beginnning of that movie was years ago on Channel 7 , the 4:30 movie. I believe it takes place after the turn of the century. Obviously there were no gate cars to be used so the Q's had to suffice. We all know the Q's debuted around 1939.
Bill Newkirk
No the Qs are older than that -- the IRT World's Fair cars that closed out their careers on the Bronx section of the Third Ave. el debuted in 1939.
I think that the "Q" cars made their debut in 1939 too. They were all former gate cars which were rebuilt changing their appearance completely.
Right. The Qs were rebuilt into closed end platform cars for the World's Fair. It was either that or use old open platform gate cars, which the BMT felt wouldn't sit too well with fair visitors, or design a new car which could only be used on the Astoria and Flushing lines, which the BMT couldn't justify.
So the Qs as they came to be known debuted in 1939; however, they were originally built in 1908 or thereabouts.
That's right. I just meant that the Q cars weren't brand new in 1939, since wooden rail cars went out of style about the time they finished the Panama Canal.
For anyone who loved the gate cars the "C's" and the "Q's" were the enemy.
A side note on the Myrtle closing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that only a few days before the scheduled closing, a truck had a collision with the structure sufficient to compromise its safety.
Most people thought that was it, and the line wouldn't make its official closing date, but the City erected a wooden support so the Qs could make their last stand.
Rather like patching up the condemned man...
OK I was wondering if anyone can help me our in here? I recently purchased a set of brass BRT BU cars in HO. I would like to paint them in the original paint scheme. I know they were painted red with gold/dulux lettering. What I need to know is when the paint scheme changed? Was it when the steps and traps were removed or did the as delivered paint scheme stay until the car needed to be repainted? In going along with that last question I have heard 2 diffrent assumptions on the paint scheme, what color were the window sash? I was under the impression that they were painted a cream color much the same applied to BRT streetcars(aka 4573 at Shoreline before it was repainted into its current scheme). In speaking with Jeff H. it would be safe to assume that the sash was also just stained and varnished. As for the striping on the side of the car it looks like the same color as the lettering in the photos in "Brooklyn Elevated" by Ed Watson and James Greller. I figure with all the transit knowledge in this group we might be able to come up with a consensus.
I appreciate any help any readers might be able to give
I have never appreciated the paint job on the museum gate cars, at least not from the color pictures that I have seen. I guess that is because I never saw them in service in those colors. My earliest memory of the gate cars was from about 1941. They quickly became my favorites until I lost contact with them in early 1954. In the early years they all seemed to be painted a light weathered brown. Sometime near the end of WW-2 a refurbishment program was started where the cars were completely repainted inside and out. The new exterior color was a very nice shade of green. The cars looked great for about six months until the weather darkened the green to a type of gray-black. I tried to keep track of the cars that were painted and somewhere I have a list of about 60 cars that were painted up to the fall of 1949. Many of the cars finished their careers in peeling brown and never did get repainted.
I know my time of interest was only about 13 years, but during that time they were all brown or green. I guess that is why the museum red just rubs me the wrong way. I never rode them when they were red.
A good friend sent me pictures by E-mail of #1349 from Branford. At the time the pictures were taken one side of the car was painted brown and the other was painted green. The shades of the two colors seemed to be exactly as I remembered them from the 1940's.
Incidentally, during my period of interest there were only two gate cars that carried 1400 numbers, 1448 and 1482, both of which had received the green paint jobs. I have been told by several experts that all of the 1400's were converted to "Q"s, and that these two cars were not originally in the 1400 series.
The models are yours and you should paint them whatever color you like but I sure would vote against the red.
The Acela train which has been testing in the Philadelphia division, Northeast corrodor, was in Penn Station tonight. Arriving on Track 12 at 9:10PM tonight 10/4/99. The train is enroute to Boston for clearance testing behind two F-40's(on at New Haven) and AEM-7 #914 which was painted in the new Acela colors for the occasion. The train is running ahead of train #178 (It departed Penn. Sta. at 9:23PM tonight) It is due to arrive in Boston around 3:00AM after a photo stop/ press conference in New Haven around 11:30PM tonight. Once in Boston it will undergo a series of clearance testing in and around South Station. As I get more info I'll post it here.....Mark W.
Interesting. When I passed through Philadelphia on Friday and Sunday I noticed what appeared to be an Acela trainset under tarps - is this the same one?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The one I saw when I was in Philadelphia last (7/5/99),was not under tarps. The one you saw might be another one.
Has this been tried recently (in the past five to ten years)??
This used to be a "sport" of some sort....
Who was the youngest to successfully complete this feat?
I might try to do this myself very soon...if I am still young enough for "youngest to complete this feat." (BTW, I am not far from my 21st B-day)
Nick
SOME TEENAGERS RODE THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IN THE 50S FOR 15 CENTS, LATE NIGHTS ARE THE KILLER
There's been some discussion of this a while back but it died because most of us are too old and creaky to try it any more. If you think you can get a small group together that would be seriouly interested in doing this, there are people out there who could help you plan a route to do it in the shortest time possible - in fact, I think that subway-buff (subway-buff@mindspring.com) had one possible routing that would do it in approximately 24 hours. IIRC, it needs to be done on a weekday so that all lines are operating to all stations and express service was available. I don't recall now whether the ground rules required riding both local and express in those areas where the local and express tracks diverge (as they do in Queens in a couple of places) or not.
Good luck!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I prefer to do it with another goal in mind. This summer I took a very long ride when I got on at Main Street, rode the #7, then picked up the IND and rode it to Far Rockaway. With my Fun Pass in hand made the free transfer to LI Bus N33 to Long Beach, then switched there to a N15 ... now I almost could have done it for 1.50. The problem was I met a friend at Jay Street for supper.
I'm not going to claim any kind of record here, but it was a real fun way to spend a summer afternoon !
So, let me suggest you organize a "Field Trip" that is long, but has a lot of stuff to see along the way, you may find a few of us nuts want to join you.
Mr t__:^)
if anyone wantas to try, we can get up a group. I'll go, I work for NYCT and I can be in uniform to make it "official". I'll document the trip-times, car numbers, direction, etc. Someone else can also do the same and I'll verify the info since I'll be with the group.
I will do this for free!
The current record was set by a group of three people on December 11th, 1988, when the Archer Ave line to Parsons/Archer opened for business.
--Mark
Read my posting. These never produced a log to Guinness and they have no record. Besides 26+ hours is more than the well documented trip of 1971 the I took when the system was much larger.
These 3 guys are definitely Yo-Yo's.
It can be done if you know where to transfer.
Times Square, Broadway/Nassau, Atlantic Avenue, Coney Island, Grand Central and Broadway Junction make it possible to ride the entire system with a single fare.(I've checked).
When I'm up there, I always buy a FunPass but only use it two or three times.
Hey, I did it in December of 1971 at 24 hours, 11 minutes. We called ourselves the "Subway Seven" with big publicity for Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn. If you can't beat 21 hours, 8.5 minutes than you haven't accomplished nothing. That's the all time record by Mayer Weisen and Charles Emerson from 1973. They were friends of mine.
But the system was smaller back then. The record should be total time divided by number of stations visited with stations visited equal to the max number of stations possible to visit. That way you can compare records across time.
YOU ARE WRONG. The system was bigger in 1971 and 1973 with the 3rd Avenue EL in the Bronx, the Culver Shuttle and the Jamaica Avenue EL.
That was 2 years after the end of the Myrtle. Was the Bronx Third Av and the Culver Shuttle still running?
In 1971 the 3rd Avenue EL was still running along with the Culver Shuttle. I missed the dam #8 train at 149th Street and 3rd Avenue in the 1971 subway rally which gave me a 28 minute delay.
Let's get the record straight. In October, 1973, the 3rd Avenue EL was gone but the Culver Shuttle and Jamaica EL to 168th Street were still in-service. Even with the Archer Avenue extension and the 63rd Street tunnel to nowhere, the system was the same size or larger in 1973. It was definitely larger when I did the rally in 1971. If you can't at least beat my record of 24 hours and 11 minutes you are wasting your time and effort.
A couple of yo-yo's in the 1988 said they had the record of 26 hours+ when the Archer Avenue Extension opened. Guinness took their word on news media accounts only and a log could not be produced. Mayer Wiesen and I conducted Guinness and they could super claim. NOT CREDITABLE at all. No log, no record in accordance with my book and if you can't beat the 1973 record which is super well documented and audited then you will never have a creditable record.
In going thru more of the postings on this subject, I have to add to my previous post. In 1967 when I and 2 friends broke the record, there was a committee of Transit Officials who reviewed your log to make the run official. I'm guessing there is no longer any such committee. I agree, if there is no log, there is no run. We had to supply the time on/off each train, and the 1st car#. There were also several different classifications of competition, A, B, and C, based on express versus local, opposing directions of track, etc. This was quite a popular 'event', usually covered by the papers and well know to the riding public at the time.
Just curious about the rules. Since it had to be on one fare were you allowed to get off the system at the 2 ticket transfers at that time, The transfer to the IND from the Myrtle at Jay St and the transfer from the Franklyn Shuttle to the IND at Fulton St. If it wasn't allowed it would add alot of time backtracking. And I don't even want to get into the fact that the Rockaways was a double fare in those days!!!
Jeffrey Rosen. You must do it on one fare. Also, you must stop or bypass all stations less than 100 foot align of the station platform. You don't have see the station platform, just have be less than 100 feet of the station platform. This is true on the express tracks on the Lex. north of Grand Central.
Take it from an old timer at these matters, don't try set a record and I guarantee you will not break my record or Mayer Wiesen's record of 1971.
The Rockaway double fare didn't apply unless you entered or exited in the Rockaways or Broad Channel.
Hope you have a strong bladder. Alot of the bathrooms have been closed.
If I can get my hands on a recent Japanese invention...something they devised that was once viewed on TV which allows one to go on long walks and operate normally without going to the restroom...this item had at least some plastic tube and 2 plastic containers...one of the plastic containers you can empty into a trash can, as long as no one is overwhelmed by that smell...That would be perfect!
Nick C
BTW, I remember Coney Island Station with a restroom that is open, but is it outside the paid fare zone? Is that the only restroom open in the entire system?
No, there are rest rooms in other stations. Down on the Brighton Line at Sheepshead Bay, which was recently rebuilt, there are rest rooms within the fare gates.
I was just mentioning to someone today about a device called a Motorman's Helper, which I once saw on an episode of Hill Street Blues. Belker had to escort a prisoner on an airplane flight, and mentioned that he was using a motorman's helper, a device for collecting one's urine. Did they make that name up, or has anyone ever heard of a Motorman's Helper? (If it does exist, does the TA provide one for each male worker? , just a joke)
I used to drive a cab in the 70's while going to college and I know alot of cab drivers who carried an empty bottle with them. I never did, however that was a big problem. There was no worse feeling than to be down on Wall Street at rush hour, having to go so bad you can taste it and having someone hop in and say "Kennedy Airport". I guess that would be comparable to a motorman on a Far Rockway bound "A" train just leaving the northern most terminal in Washington Hts. and have nature call.
Coming up out of the tunnel into Spring Garden station one day, a
TO on the Market Frankford El here in Philly pulled his train 2
car lengths onto the platform, keyed open one door, and disappeared
somewhere into the station for about a minute. The funny part was
the radio calling him over and over. Once he finally ran back and
answered the call, I believe he stated he was on "personal business".
Ayup.
I've seen porable 'cans' sold in pilot catalogs. If you think the
Rockaway line is a long stretch, try 12000 feet! The one looked like a
plastic enclosed watering can with a long, err, spout.
This is a subject I have asked about a few times in the past. Not only was it a "sport", it was an official competition. I was 14 when I did it in record breaking time on June 16, 1967 with 2 friends. Our record of 22 hours and 39 minutes was made official by the Amateur New York Subway Riding Committee on December 22, 1967. Our certificates were signed by Geoffrey H. Arnold, Don Harold and Peter R. Samson. I was contacted some time ago (thru subtalk) by someone from a group who tried to beat our record and failed. If anyone has info on the record subway riding runs made after June '67, please let me know. I have not been able to find any 'official' information on this topic and Guiness has been an unreliable source of this information.
Thanks for your support on this subject on subtalk. You and I have communicated on E-Mail in the past and as you know I was trying to bet your record in 1971. You know that Mayor Wiesen and Charles Emerson beaten your record on October of 1973 of 21 hours, 8.5 minutes that is totally documented and recorded and was in Guinness until 1989.
By the way, I was that someone who contacted you.
[You know that Mayor Wiesen and Charles Emerson beaten your record on October of 1973 of 21 hours, 8.5 minutes that is totally documented and recorded and was in Guinness until 1989.]
It really isn't possible to compare pre- and post-Chrystie Street records.
Actually, the effect of Chrystie St. on this sort of record should be fairly minor. One extra station (Grand St.). One connection added (B'way-Lafayette to DeKalb) and one eliminated (Chambers St. to DeKalb). More significant for riding records would be the removal of the Myrtle Ave. and Third Ave. el lines. That eliminated a good bit of mileage, on which trains ran fairly slowly too.
I made an (unofficial) attempt at the record back in 1972 and failed miserably, winding up taking close to 30 hours. The Myrtle Ave. el was already gone then, but the Third Ave. el in the Bronx still remained. I made my own decisions about the rules, which don't seem to match any of the standard versions. I was concerned with covering all stretches of right-of-way, rather than all stations. That meant I needed to cover both the express and local routes of the IND Queens line and IND Brooklyn (F) line where they diverged. So I needed to cover the Brooklyn F during rush hour to catch the express route. I also needed to catch the rush hour 'K' route between B'way-Laffayette and Essex St. (OK, a second Chrystie St. "connection", although it opened 7 months later than the main one) and to be on the Rockaway line late at night to catch the Round Robin across Hammels Wye. All these things are gone now, so a present-day record ought to be faster than one from the 70's I would think.
What was your time on this trip. You are right in your discussion.
As I said, my time was very close to 30 hours. About a minute or two under, i.e. between 29:58 and 29:59. Not a very good showing, I admit. I didn't really have a planned route, I just knew I had to be in the places I mentioned at the times I mentioned. I also failed to cover one section of track that I had planned to, namely the northbound half of the inner loop at South Ferry. I hadn't realized that the Bowling Green-SF shuttle backtracked over the southbound half and never covered the "northbound" half, therefore I wound up not doing so either - after spending quite a while waiting for that shuttle.
Just out of curiousity, if somebody were to do this today, what routes would they have to take to minimize backtracking and still cover all the lines?
Assuming a couple things here:
1. No bizzare re-routes are in effect because of construction, etc. Admittedly this would be a fairly rare occurrance.
2. The idea would be to cover all the lines, not all the stops. In other words, express trains could be used as long as the express tracks remain adjacent to the locals. If the express tracks diverge significantly, then both the local and express routes would have to be covered.
3. It appears that the time record is pretty much set in stone, so let's assume that no attempt is being made to break it.
(Besides, with unlimited-ride MetroCards and free transfers available, I guess the idea of remaining on the system having paid only a "single fare" is sort of a moot point now anyway.)
Any takers?
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Nobody answered my rules question a few days ago. I'll try again. When the Myrtle was still operating there was a paper transfer from the Myrtle to the IND at Jay Street which allowed you to go on the street and off the system. There was also a paper transfer between the "A" and the Franklyn Shuttle at Fulton & Franklyn. Was that allowable since it was still only 1 fare even though you left the system for a couple of minutes? It definitely had to save alot of backtracking on both lines.
The map never mentioned this peculiar fact, so I assume it's allowed.
Of course it was allowable! Otherwise passengers would not have received the paper transfer in the first place! The TA did this out of courtesy since there was no physical connection. Yes, you could do your shopping on a single fare by simply going or returning to your starting point via another route.
I meant for the competition rules.
Bill, this thread was originally about the attempts to set time records for travelling the entire system on one fare. My question was: Were those paper transfers and thus leaving the system allowable in the rules for those record attempts.
[My question was: Were those paper transfers and thus leaving the system allowable in the rules for those record attempts.]
I don't see why not - the transfers could be seen as extensions of the fare zones.
I would say the paper transfers do not count. You must stay in the system completely and not leave. NO GOOD.
That point is now moot. The paper transfer is gone- now it is a free transfer WITHIn the fare control. (When the shuttle reopens)
The TA maps of the late 60s had a footnote on the paper transfer at Jay St. It said transfers from the MJ to the A or E were valid only as far as Broadway-Nassau Sts. Nothing was mentioned about travel in the opposite direction.
I do remember something to that effect on the maps. However I know in those days I would change for the Myrtle from either the Jamaica Line or the Canarsie Line, take it all the way down to Jay St and change for the IND. That was a regular part of my railfan "buff" trips. I would then take the IND down to the Culver Shuttle.
The transfers were issued on the Myrtle El at stations from Sumner through Navy,at night went the ticket offices at these stations were closed the transfers were issued at Bridge-Jay which had a 24 hour agent.(He never slept). They allowed entrance to the IND Jay St-Boro Hall Station for a ride to Broadway-Nassau,of course once you entered the control area you could go anyplace you wanted to.
The transfer in the opposite direction was issued at Bway-Nassau with the purchase of a token. It allowed transfer to the BMT at Bridge-Jay and was only supposed to be valid for stations from Navy thru Sumner but again there was no way to enforce this provision.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Also at one time there was a paper transfer at 155th St Polo Grounds from the the Concourse to the old Shuttle To Jerome, and at Yankee Stadium between the 4 and D Trains. But they had time limits on the transfer, to prevent people taking one train to the games and the other one back from the games. they used to station a extra agent at the gate to look at the transfer for the times
I think using the Franklin Ave. transfer would be allowable. Whether it would be desirable to do so is another story.
The transfer at Bridge-Jay was not an unrestricted free transfer. Only people who paid cash fares at stations on the Myrtle Ave. el from Broadway/Myrtle to Bridge-Jay could get the tickets allowing the transfer to the IND at Jay St. station. And the transfer to go from the Jay St. IND station to the Bridge-Jay el station was obtainable only by paying a cash fare at the Fulton St./Broadway-Nassau complex! The purpose of this arrangement was apparently to provide substitute service for the old el route over the Brooklyn Bridge to Sands St. (?) terminal.
Maybe we could get our minds off politics and
baseball by considering WHAT is your favorite
elevated line, either up on an el or an embankment,
for looking into other people's homes? I
capitalized WHAT because I don't want any of you
silly Bud & Lou fans to start a Who's on First
Routine. I know how your minds work.
This is sort of a sensitive area, because we are
invading people's privacy. However if
they didn't want us talking about them, they should
have left the shades down, even if it's 107 outside. With that said, what was
the strangest thing you remember seeing that you can
talk about about on a Message Board that prides
itself on being suitable for all groups of people.
So watch yourself folks, if you have any truly
disgusting or risque stories, don't post them up and
offend others. Be considerate, e-mail me those
stories, as I am mature and well-balanced enough to
deal with them properly. I guess in fairness to the people who live along the train's route, I should open this up also to them. Who was the strangest looking person you noticed looking into your window? And that wasn't me.
You get some pretty good "views" from the J.
Several months ago, on nyc.transit, there was an interesting posting from Cap'n Bludd (a track-crew flagger and an occasional poster to Subtalk) regarding views from the elevated structure. People who aren't close to stations frequently are unconcerned about pulling dowm their shades. figuring that trains go by too fast for the passengers to see much of anything. But they don't realize that track crews may be walking along those tracks from time to time and obviously are going slowly enough to see a whole lot more :-)
Remember "Twelve Angry Men"? The witness stated she saw the murder across the street through the cars of a moving el train.
I always liked to ride the outside platform between cars on both the Myrtle and the Lexington Ave Lines. The two scenes I remember seeing most often were people leaning out the windows of the buildings looking down to the street, or someone sleeping in an easy chair, frequently with an open newspaper laying on them. Remember with even a slow train speed you only got a glimpse. I think I was more interested in the clatter of the train and the swaying motion of the two cars.
I think the Title says it all. Any ideas?
How about riding the route of the first IRT lines? Of course, we'd have to skip City Hall and use the 42nd Street Shuttle.
Hey Peter. That's a good idea. Riding the original route of the IRT. I don't what time the first runs were. And quite honestly I didn't know it was Oct 27, until I checked it in one of Stan Fischler's books.
I believe the first train left City Hall at around 2:35 pm and took 40-60 minutes tops to get to 145th and Broadway.
was it a local or express?
It was an Express.
The train switched from the local to express tracks as the train came from the City Hall loop. There was actually a switching problem with the inaugural run.
What happened was the special silver controller handle used for the occasion didn't fit properly and hit the brake valve, throwing the train into BIE.
That special ran express to 145th St., and covered the route in 26 1/2 minutes. Mayor McClellan was at the controls, and was having so much fun running his new toy that he didn't give up his post until the train had reached 103rd St. Supposedly, he was pushing 40 mph most of the way. Can you imagine him operating an A train of R-10s up CPW? Pure bliss! He even snapped back the way a kid would when it was suggested he defer to a regular motorman: "This is MY train and I'm running it!"
The inaugural special ran local back to City Hall, to allow the dignitaries to examine each station, and it took something like 41 minutes.
I'm all for such an event. I will be in the city on the 27th as it is. Too bad they won't have the Lo-Vs on the shuttle. What do you think, Wayne?
I knew because it's my birthday. Maybe that's why I'm such a subway nut. It opened on October 27, 1904. I was born in 1940. Transpose it and it is eery. Well I think it ism just like it's eery that I'm such a fanatical nut about the New York subway.
According to Under The Sidewalks of New York (Brian Cudahy) the opening day ceremonies were supposed to end at 2 PM but ran about 1/2 hour late. That would make the first train out of City Hall at about 2:30 PM.
I did that on the 75th Anniversary. It would be nice to do that again. I am taking that day off from work.
Read all about it.
The key lines which Brighton Liners do not have access to are the F and the G. If the MTA really wanted to make the Franklin Shuttle a usefull train the should've continued it Southward to the Culver line and Northward to the G.
Thing is, (if you've been following along) the line is part of the original BRT/BMT system, as was the Culver (F). All the lines that now go to Coney Island at one time connected to the Fulton El, and ran into downtown Brooklyn. What is now the Franklin Shuttle is the original ramp from the Brighton line to the Fulton Street line.
-HAnk
Just came across my screen"
History Channel, Tuesday 8pm & Wednesday 2am
History of the NYC Subway system
I think it was a 1995 A & E Program
IF it's Empire Beneath the Streets, it has been on A&E before. It was produced by Transit Gloria Mundi for A&E and is available both from A&E Home Video and Transit Gloria Mundi.
It's been on before, but was at 10 vs. 8 PM on LI ... interesting it WAS on the same day.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me what portion of the route for the 2nd Avenue subway has already been dug. I know that it had previously been started in 1972 but was abandoned in 1975 due to budget cuts. At which cross street did it begin and at what cross street was it abandoned?
KRISTEN:
The finished portions of the second avenue subway are as follows:
110th to 120th streets (2nd Ave.)
99th to 105th streets (2nd Ave.)
and a section under Chrystie street near Chatham Sq. in lower Manhattan. A fourth section under 2nd ave between 2st and 9st was started but I don't know if it was ever completed. If anybody has an answer out there I would like to know.
The section in the East Village was filled back in.
--Mark
Is it two track? Is there a station at the United Nations built in the 1940's?
No, there's no station at the UN.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, those sections which were completed were two-track.
Even though the project was suspended in 1975, work continued on three of the segments until they were finished around 1978.
That sounds right. Those contracts which had been awarded were allowed to be completed, but that was it.
At $3.6B for the 69-125 2nd Avenue Subway the MTA proposes, Just think what the proposal would cost if these sections didn't exist.
Try to trip up Mr. Train Control (nah I'm not doing that, just tired of burger and political posts)...
I know when a D and a Q train arrive Manhattan bound at Church Ave and both "punch" for a lineup around the same time, the Q gets the lineup first and the D has to wait just past Parkside Ave where the line goes from 4 tracks to two to enter the tunnel (from the open cut).
If the D punches without the Q at Church Ave, how long will the interlocking (asking from the laymans point of view) accept a punch from the Q and give the Q lineup instead of the already punched D.
Is it done by how close the D gets to its home signal on the interlocking or if the the plant has already moved the points for the D line up? (will the points move back if the Q punches before the D reaches the home or an earlier approach signal?)
Lou, first a joke that I cannot resist because of your first name. You asked "Who is First?" , it should be "Who is On First?"
Anyway, you ask a very interesting question, for which I don't know the answer. Especially if control of the switches is computer controlled rather than human controlled. I don't know that either. But I have stood up front during am rush hour on the Brighton Express, and noted the variation in who went first. Off the top of my head, I would think scheduling might have something to do with it. If the local were running late, or the express was running late that might be a factor. I know when you're in the express, it's a big kick when you pass the local sitting in Parkside especially if they have been waiting there. On the other hand when you're in the local and are held at Parkside to allow the Express go by, you have other feelings. Then there is the crap shoot when both the express and local are in the station at Church, and people switch from the local to the express figuring the express will get to Prospect first ---sometimes only to find out that the local went first. When I was on the front window leaving Church, I would always try to get a look at the following signal, it would give you clues about who had the line-up. Years ago, I remember seeing the line-up change at the last moment. I guess this makes riding the Brighton interesting in the am around Church.
But I'm also interested in what actually controls it. Paul
I just had this situation this morning.
It seems that the whole punch situation depends on whether or not the machine controlling the switch is on manual or automatic.
If the machine is on auto, the Q can punch after the D leaves and still get the line up, as there is a time delay of sorts for the local. Not sure if the local has to get onto a certain circuit or if it really is a time delay.
I actually punched as the D was pulling into Parkside and I got the lineup first. The D was already leaving as I entered Church and began my station stop.
If the D train makes the station stop at Parkside, and is starting to leave the station, it is more than likely it will get the lineup.
Now, if the machine is on manual, I understand the Tower Op. is directed to give the lineup to the local first as long as it punches first. In this case it is a matter of who is first to the punch.
Later,
Chris
From my experince at 59 Master tower which is operated manual, when the S/B B&D get to 59 one of the trains is scheduled to leave first.
If one train is early it will wait for the other to leave first. If the train that was to leave first is late and not in the station, the other will leave first, there by "cutting out" the train that should have left first. Sometimes they will even make one train late just to keep the trains "in place". Sometimes a train will be "cut" when it rightfully should have been in front of the other. It's a human thing, and all depends on if the Tower Operator is paying attention to his/her sheets. If a Tower Operator "cuts" a train, all the Towers and gap stations down the line must be informed, so as to expect the train running "behind".
Back in the late '50s, early '60s, when there was no punch at Church Avenue, it was common for expresses to wait for locals N/B south of PP, even though they left Church at the same time.
I can't tell you how many times I got on a Triplex on the express at Church Avenue, watched it run neck and neck with the local until the latter slowed for Parkside, then felt it come to a quick stock at the interlocking.
After what seemed like an eternity, the Standards on the local would come humming and rocking by. I could swear the lead car stuck its tongue out at us as it passed...
So this has been going on for a long time. I never found out why, but I suspect it's an issue of which train is scheduled to go first, not which train punches first...
Okay "which train scheduled to go first" is fine but that means someone has to make the call. How does the INTERLOCKING PLANT know?
For example if a D punches and moves to Parkside, when would the interlocking move over for the D lineup. I swear I've been on a D at parkside no sign of the Q and all of a sudden we are waiting for the Q to go through. For your statement this means there was human intervention to reset the interlocking or block the orginal route request (punch)??
DeKalb Tower is watching all of this as well as the heavy movements further down at Dekalb itself? I thought it would be more automatic since they have gotten rid of all the towers on the brighton.
Back in the era I was talking about, there was no punch at Church. The tower at Prospect Park made the decision on who was routed where when.
I have no knowledge of how the punches at Church Ave. work now. Maybe someone else knows. I could imagine that the circuitry could be aware of which train went through last, so, for example, if the last train was a "D", the routing would favor a "Q" as the next train. So if a "D" punches next, but then a "Q" punches before the interlocking clears for the "D", the "Q" could get priority.
But that's pure guesswork on my part.
The Tower Operators have Gap sheets which list all scheduled trains passing thru the interlocking. They list the times the train is supposed to be there and from that they can figure which train goes first. At a manual interlocking the punch does nothing more than light a light or ring a bell.
I kind of figured those BMT standards were a bit brazen...
In the ongoing "Mayor of NYCity" thread, there have been a number of references to David Dinkins and the Crown Heights disturbances. I wasn't working in the city at the time and didn't pay much if any attention to the events. Now, I understand that it all started when a black child was run over by a car in a Hasidic leader's motorcade, and it culminated in the stabbing death of a Hasidic man. But why has Mayor Dinkins been so excoriated for his handling of the situation? He surely didn't start the rioting. Did he hold back the police and therefore let the situation escalate?
If this is considered too off-topic, please e-mail me if you have any answers. Thanks.
The question you asked "Did he hold back the police and therefore let the situation escalate" is perhaps too blunt. Dinkins has said he did not and that his inaction was based on his trust in his Police Commissioner to handle the situation properly.
This question was pivotal in a civil lawsuit which never came to trial, so we don't have a definitive legal answer.
There are many unanswered questions. Since there was never federal involvement in the case as there have been in other cases with civil rights overtones (except in the specific civil rights violations committed by two individuals) we'll never have an "official" answer the question.
I think it's fair to say the Dinkins Administration handled this badly. A commission appointed by Governor Cuomo found as much. Whether Dinkins didn't act forcefully for several days for reasons of personal perspective only he knows in his heart. And perhaps even he doesn't know.
Subway riding records are totally invalid without a log and an independent audit of that log. The time of making every transfer, the line, car number of lead car in the train must be accurately recorded and that must be audited by an independent individual or organization that has access to NYCT records of the time and car number of the train consists to verify.
The all time record of October, 1973 was done that way and was audited by Steve Zabel who was paid $35.00 to do the audit. Steve worked as a conducted for NYCTA at the time and has a avid railfan and photographer. His photographs are on this website. Steve is no longer with us.
By the way, NYCT doesn't endorse subway records or validate them. Keep that in mind.
Interesting post. Proves you're never too old to learn something new.
Doug aka BMTman
OK. I work for NYCT. If anyone wants to try for a records we can get up a group to do this thing. I can go along to document the trip. Times, car numbers, lines direction.
Has anyone set a record for the present system? Since the Subway system is a changing entity, a record would have to be valid for the system as it exists at the time the attempt is made. At the time of the 1973 event, the J ran to 168th St., both sides of the Manhattan Bridge were open, and the Culver Shuttle was still in business. On the other hand, the 63rd St. tunnel was not in service, and train speeds were higher. Thus any record set at this time will be for the system as it exists today. The opening of the Queens Connector or the switchover to the south tracks on the bridge will alter the system enough to allow for another new record to be set.
As I said in the past, if you can't at least beat my record of 24 hours, 11 minutes and then bet the 1973 of 21 hours, 8.5 minutes for the system today you are wasting your time effort. With all G.O.'s going on and other slow downs you will NEVER do at least 24 hours and this is guaranteed. Your timing has to right and cannot be thrown together in a careless way. I learn this years ago. The 1973 record which is the only validated record by Mayer Wiesen and Charles Emerson was conducted after watching the operation on the system and putting together a route that was very clever. Timing is everything. Think good and hard before you try it.
NYC needs a transit line in the center median of the Long Island Expressway straight into Nassau County. It will service Queens well and Long Island. It will be called the Moses Line named after the builder of the LIE.
It would be more beneficial than the 2nd Avenue Subway being proposed.
Let me have your thoughts!!!
"NYC needs a transit line in the center median of the Long Island Expressway straight into Nassau County. It will service Queens well and Long Island. It will be called the Moses Line named after the builder of the LIE."
The irony of naming a rail line after Mr. "I hate trains because of the smoke even though trains are electric nowadays" Moses would be just SO delicious! And you could power it by harnessing the energy of his body spinning in its grave. (^;
Moses didn't even have a drivers license and did not drive. He must be driven around or taken the subway.
John, you forgot the Esq.
He had a chauffeur. He also was against building any tunnels -- subway or vehicular -- because the lacked grandeur and looked like "tiled bathrooms." Caro's book has a long section about the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel fight.
(Try to imagine the Lincoln Bridge and Queens Midtown Bridge coming down on either end of 40th Street and think of how that would have affected the city's development.)
It will never happen! Look at the community pressure against the HOV lanes!
The lack of ROW along the LIE corridor would mean cutting the number of lanes in both directions sharply or double-decking the thing all the way out from Maspeth to wherever you wanted the subway line to end. It would be cheaper to bury it under one of the service roads.
And even cheaper to simply electrify the entire LIRR and fix the problems with it. And much faster to implement too.
Well, let's not rule out LIRR expansion. If it were ever to happen, running it along the LIE would be a bad idea because it would be too far a walk from any residences.
Electrifying the LIRR in it's entirety is a simple solution. But it probably wouldn't deliver very much because the real problems with the LIRR have alot more to do with:
* Bad management in some but not all areas
* Underfunded maintenance programs
* Too much control of the LIRR by the MTA who represents the interests of bureaucrats for the most part
* Inadequate community input on MTA policy regarding effective actions in bettering transportation to and from communities via the LIRR
Fortunately, we can fund the purchase of virtually any kind of new equipment. Even electrification.
But unfortunately, the people responsible for decisions regarding equipment design and operation have been wrong in the past. For example - consider the history of the R46 subway car. These days, they tend to be good reliable cars. But when delivered, the R46s came from the factory with flawed trucks due to bad design.
The public paid for the error.
The manager (whose name I believe was De Roos according to the New York Times) who was instrumental in making the decision to go with the R46 as designed was influenced by the builder and it's sub contracters to approve the purchase.
That manager didn't go to jail. He was never punished - only rewarded. Where was the MTA's accountability in this?
Our tax money paid for the fix and that error finished Pullman in the car building business. I think Rockwell had something to do with the truck design and this incident hurt them as well.
The riding public had to put up with cars pulled from the scrap line to cover runs expected to be held down by new R46s that had sent the last of the R9s to the scrapper.
And this was all caused by bad management at the MTA. And the MTA controls the LIRR.
My point is that simply electrifying the LIRR would be nice. But the real problems lie with it's management.
MTA management is simply not accountable in a tangible way to the riding public or the taxpayer. And that's just no good.
I can think of a history of events that would make LIRR management look inept. But I'm sure I've made my point.
So I wish I could agree that electrification would solve all the problems. In reality - electrification would simply exchange current problems for new ones - so long as the current MTA management and structure are in place.
These are bigger issues than electrification of all LIRR lines.
I didn't mean to imply electrification would solve the LIRR's problems.
Only that it would make more sense than a transit line down the LIE. As for solving the LIRR's problems, it seems nothing short of minor miracle would do that. I could, and I'm sure plenty others here can, wrte volumes on my gripes about the LIRR (and Amtrak for that matter).
I don't complain much about the NYCTA.
Why? Because I've seen an improvement nothing short of remarkable from where the system was in the early - mid 80's. Ditto for Metro-North, NJT. But I've not seen much,if anything, change on the LIRR. The airconditioning is still flaky, cars are still dirty, Glen Head station is still a dump (though less so), the ride quality has barely improved. I could go on, but we've all seen it. The current excuses ("we're the largest commuter RR in the US", "If you don't like it, drive"), have gotten old. I've had good luck with both the LIRR and Amtrak this (school) year, but then, I still remember last year (1.5 hr late Amtrak trains, totallydark LIRR ones, the nonexistant dual modes on the Oyster Bay line). I think both (or at least the LIRR), are great systems (on paper), and I guess part of my frustration comes from the fact that both the LIRR and Amtrak could be have MUCH higher ridership, if only they'd extert that extra bit of effort and get trains clean, moving on time, reliable, riding decently, and stations cleaned up.
Am I the only one who feels this way? Am I being unrealistic here?
I agree with Phil on many points. There has been improvement at the NYCTA. But I would have been amazed had there not been. They've had a huge increase in passengers and had they not done something to improve the situation for the riding public, the TA would have experienced total public outrage.
As for the LIRR - unless their management is overhauled - the situation is not likely to improve.
Amtrak on the other hand will get much better in the Northeast over the coming years. They have in fact done a clean up on their management. It seems quite possible that there will be many improvements with Acela in reducing time/distance and reliability of service - once they get it deployed.
I think Amtrak has learned from their mistakes. In contrast, I don't think the LIRR management even understands they've made mistakes.
The lack of a ROW isn't stopping them on the Van Wyck.
Aren't those cars going to be closer to light rail than to subways, and run above the expressway?
Doing that with a subway line on the LIE would require a line either high enough to get over the overpasses (think of the fun at the Van Wyck interchange) or running it underground, in which case, they might as well stick it under the service road, or use the LIRR alternative mentioned in earlier posts.
At one time or another there have been trial balloons floated about monorails and Mag-Lev trains down the center of the LIE. As one of the other Sub-Talkers pointed out --- look at the howling about the HOV lane expansion. Of course logically they should have put the posts and other stuff up while doing the HOV lanes so that we don't get inconvenienced twice in the future. Of course, fat chance
I'm getting a little carried away with the Mets because of their impressive victory over the Reds yesterday, but I'm realistic enough to know that a very tough road lies ahead and it starts with Randy Johnson tonight. Some of you may not believe this, but out here in California we're talking up a World Series between the Yankees and Mets. It would be a natural and the first subway series since 1956. There is no argument that New York fans are the most knowledgeable and rabid when there is a big series, and such a matchup would captivate the whole nation. When I was a kid those subway series' were an art form, even though the Yankees won almost all of them. We can pit the 7 train against the 4 train, and unite the subways with baseball. The odds of this happening are not great but as long as there is a chance
I'm riding it for all its worth. My heart tells me the Mets will make it
but my head says it's going to be a tough road.
I've been pulling for both the Mets and Yankees. I lean toward the Mets because I've always been National League guy. I do think the Yankees have a good chance of repeating. I'll be sure to get a subways series shirt.
Wayne
I'm a die-hard Yankees fan, but have respect for the Mets. Being here in Boston, it's hard being a Yankees fan with all the people rooting for the damn Red Sox! I'm hoping they'll screw up against the Cleveland Indians, so the Red Sox and Yankees don't have to meet up in round 2 of the playoffs (I remember that sweep back in September). As for the Mets, I wish them good luck against the Diamondbacks, and praying for a miracle if they face Atlanta. At least this would be the 3rd time facing Atlanta (if they make it passed Arizona), and maybe the 3rd time would be the charm. But anyways, making this subway-related, many New Yorkers would love a World Subway Series, and Bostonians would like a re-match from the 1986 World Series. -Nick
Same here: I've been a die-hard Mets fan since 1962, and although I have "hated" the Yankees since the Dodgers were in Brooklyn, I am rooting for both teams, so we can have a Subway Series once again. Let's go Mets! (and Yankees, too.)
Go Mets and Go Yankees. I'm all for a subway series. And I'll buy a subway series shirt. I was at the Met game this past Sunday. What a game!!
You know, I'm a Mets fan. I was at Yankee Stadium last night, wearing all my Mets gear, taking the abuse in the Bleachers. But I'm hoping there ISN'T a subway series. Why? Because I'll never get tickets to see the Mets play in it!
-Hank
Maybe the Mets can reactivate Mookie Wilson if that happens. I doubt if the Red Sox will bring back Bill Buckner.
Of course, the Mets have to get there first, and it won't be easy. We'll see how they do at Shea against the Snakes.
Hey the Braves Lost Today, Looking Good!!!!
The Mets seem to have recovered nicely but now is no time to have any type of lapse. It would be great to win Game #2 in Phoenix tonight because that would not only give us 2-0 edge, but we'd be returning home and have a little margin for error. So GO METS!!!
I'll be awake for every pitch, just like last night.
BTW, is their any kind of friendly (or unfriendly) rivalry between crews assigned to the 7 line and the D/4 lines?
Unfortunately, the Mets lost Game 2, but I think they deserve a lot praise. They played non-stop baseball and when they weren't playing they were travelling. Not to mention shutting down the Cincy Reds at Cinergy field and that's not an easy thing to do. I do like the Yankees, but in the event of a subways series - It's Mets all the way for me. Hopefuly it can be peaceful too.
Wayne
I'm planning a trip in the Spring with my father to NYC. I have convinced him the Subway can be safe. We ride the L everywhere, but NYC still has the reputation of the 60's and 70's for out-of-towners.
Anyway, my mother still says she would never ride the NYC Subway, but just me and my father are going.
The point is, tell me how to see all the attractions by Subway. Any good restuarants and places to stay near the Subway would also be helpful. I'm really curious to see how it is supreme over the CTA, according to the comments on this board.
I know we want to visit Coney Island. Is there Express service beyond rush hour outside of Manhattan, and what is the fastest way to get there.
The transit museum is another definite stop. Of course the double decker bus tour again, just to get reoriented with the history of everything.
Possibly a Knicks game.
Fodors recommends not to ride the subway after midnight, which I would agree with. I would give soembody comming to Chicago the same advice.
Thank you for your responces in advance and I'm looking forward to my 1st ever ride on the NYC Subway.
BJ
I think you are going to have to be more specific. As you are no doubt aware, our Subway has many lines. You would have to give an idea as to what attractions you are interested in, what kind of restaurants you like (I can recommend Ellen's Stardust at 51st St& Broadway (the outside looks like a subway car).
Most major hotels are near Subway stations or within a few blocks walking distance.
You might want to do a bit of web searching to decide where you want to go (try newyork.citysearch.com {note: no www in the front of this URL}).
You should send for a Subway Map before you come so you can get an idea of the lines and where they stop and when they operate (some lines don't run after certain hours or on weekdends - but almost all stations are covered 24 hours a day). The Subway Map (aka The Map)
is updated every few months or so.
You can get one by sending a self-addressed stamped (55 cents) envelope to:
MTA New York City Transit
Customer Service
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
or you can go to the MTA's Website: www.mta.nyc.ny.us for online transit information.
Coney Island - During weekdays (except major holidays) you can thake the Q (6th Av/Brighton Express). It runs Express on the Brighton Line to Brighton Beach during Mid-day and Rush Hours. Change to the D at Brighton Beach for the 2 addtional stops to Coney Island. There is no Q service on the weekend. Take the D (6th Av Express/Brighton Local) all the way down.
The Transit Museum will be closing this month (October) for a 6 month renovation so it may not be open when you come to visit. The Transit Museum Gallery & Store at Grand Central Terminal is a good place to visit.
You can order Metrocards online at metrocard.citysearch.com (again no www). If you are going to order them do so about 2 - 3 weeks before your trip to allow for processing and mailing (usually takes 3 - 7 days by regular mail - but why take chances). You have similar farecards on the CTA so you should have no problem using our version.
(More info on Metrocards at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/).
Well - enough of my rantings. I am sure you will have more questions.
You can post some general questions here as long as they are within the scope of the discussions. If you send any to me by E-mail I will try to answer the best I can.
Allan (irt1904@aol.com)
I agree with my friend Allen, but let me give you a few hints of places easily seen via subways:
- Views of city: = Flushing line; Gowanus Cannel via F train; J/Z train in Brooklyn on Broadway over Williamsburg bridge
- Tourist spots: Statue of Liberty & Ellis Island; Twin Towers; Empire State Bldg.; China Town; Greenwich Village; A/C Carrier Intrepid; Museum of Natural History (exit right into museumA/B/C/D at 81st St); Central Park (also a small museum there); Childern's Museum in Flushing;
- Also at mid-towm: Times Sq.; Broadway Theaters; Rockefeller Center; St. Patrick's Church; Radio City Music Hall.
- Also at 116st St & Broadway = Columbia Univ., St. John The Devine, Grant's Tumb, Tom's Resturant (a.k.a. Steinfield).
- Shea & Yankee Stadiums
This is only a partial list of places easily available via subway. I'm a Long Islander & almost always use LIRR & subway/bus to visit some of the above.
Once you've got some idea of where home base is, we'll tell you HOW to get from point A to point B ... then your mom will think you using the subway because it's the fastest, most convient way to get their but you & dad will be enjoying unique stations, tracks, yards, etc.
I do this to my wife all the time, as she would much prefer to drive or take a bus, but as long as we get their in one piece she doesn't complain too much.
Mr t__:^)
Note the NYC Transit Museum in Brooklyn will be closing for renovations. I don't know when the exact date is.
BTW, the Q runs M-F 6am to 9:30 (9:30 if they changed the timetable back to before it terminated at 57th St.)
Thanks for the Advice. I'm still pondering possible places to go with the Fodors Book. It is really good, just a little vague on when trains run and which one is the fastest. I would recommend it for anyone comming to Chicago.
I know how to get from Home base to NY. We will be staying in Greenich, Connecticut and taking Metro North to Grand Central Station.
I generally understand the subway map, just the question of when certain trains run confused me a little bit. An 8 track terminal at Coney Island would scare any CTA rider! The most we have is 4 and that is only a couple.
I didn't find the times on the official MTA site, but they are listed on NYCSuway.org, which is cool.
For the transfer from the Q to the D to continue to Coney Island, just walk to the other side of the platform, stay on the same side, different platform??? I want to learn as much as I can before we go so we don't make it to obvious we are tourists. It worked really well and made it allot easier in L.A. this past summer.
Thanks again and in advance again
BJ
"An 8 track terminal at Coney Island would scare any CTA rider! The most we have is 4 and that is only a couple."
I don't know; Howard Street can be pretty damned confusing at times. (^: It's true, of course, that we have no 8 track terminals in Chicago, though.
I had no problems at Coney Island -- It's just a matter of paying attention to the signs. Not really any different than taking a Metra train out of C&NW or Union stations.
If I remember correctly (I could be wrong here), as you enter the station from Surf Avenue and go past the turnstyles and up the ramp, the platforms are as follows: B on the far left, then the N, the F, and the D at the far right.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
NO! You swapped D and N. From left to right it's B, F, D, then N.
I stand corrected.
I was a bit unsure of the D and the N; I had even typed it correctly and then changed it before I posted the message. Looks like I had it right the first time.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Another note about changing to the D after riding the Q to end up and Coney Island. Brighton Beach Terminal of the Q are two center tracks, you might get slotted to the Manhattan bound Express track, in that case you would have to go down and over to the Coney Island Platform.
Best case if you are unsure, change at Sheepshead Bay Road directly across the platform from the Q to the D. One stop away from Brighton you will not miss any high speed riding. More often then not, the Q will sit and wait outside of Brighton for a departing Manhattan Q and you would miss you connection to the D (been there done that).
>For the transfer from the Q to the D to continue to Coney Island, just walk to the other side of the platform, stay on the same side, different platform??? I want to learn as much as I can before we go so we don't make it to obvious we are tourists. It worked really well and made it allot easier in L.A. this past summer. <
Just walk across the platform at Brighton Beach.
BTW - When you get to Coney Island (Stillwell Avenue) make sure you stop in Nathan's for Hot Dogs and French Fries (you could almost say it would be sacriligeous not to). Nathan's is diretcly across the street (and slightly to the right) of the entrance to the train.
When you get to Grand Central be sure to stop at the Transit Museum Gallery and Store. It is to the left of the Station Mastser's office.
Hours: M - F (except certain holdays) 8 AM to 8PM, Saturday 10 AM to 4 PM. Closed Sunday.
Actually, t'would be best for you do transfer one stop early, at Sheepshead Bay. The Q alternates unpredictably which platform it arrives on at Brighton Beach, and therefore you have only a 50% chance of being across from the CI bound D as opposed to a Manhattan bound D. At Sheepshead Bay, it's a regular stop, so all trains always enter and exit in the same manner.
Thank you one again for the great info.
Now according the Fodors there are two Nathan's. One on the Board walk open May to September and one open year round near by. Which one are you talking about. I don't know if I mentioned, but we will be visiting during Spring Break, the last week of March 2000. ( I guess you could say they have a Chicago Hot Dog!!!)
Also, Is the entrance to Coney Island visible as you come out of the station? I assume it would be sine Fodors doesn't give directions from the station to the park. Also, are the amusement park(s) open during March???
Also, the station the Q terminates at, is it in a decent area? Fodor's describes Northern Brooklyn as being like the Affluent Lincoln Park section of Chicago, but really doesn't say much about Coney Island area other then it is there and worth the trip. I assume it would be safe since N. Brooklyn has such a nice description.
Madison Square Garden, what's nearby to grab a bite before a game??
Finally, exactley where is the Late Show with David Letterman located? I haven't been able to find it in the book, but I'm sure it is there. It isn't exactley easy to find a specific topic since it is over 400 pages!
Thank you very much again and if you ever come to Chicago, contact me first. There are many things to see like Pullman that the tour books and web sites don't mention that much about but are some of the best places to visit.
BJ
There are tons of places to eat near MSG, most of them directly beneath it in what is left of the old Penn Station. Most of them are overpriced (like everything else except T-shirts in midtown Manhattan - cheap T-shirts abound) but your chance of contracting food poisoning is only one in ten.
The David Letterman Show is in the Ed Sullivan Theatre, on the west side of Broadway around 54th street (I could be off by one or two blocks). Better bet: go see Cats at the Winter Garden, on the east side of Broadway around 51st.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Also, the station the Q terminates at, is it in a decent area? Fodor's describes Northern Brooklyn as being like the Affluent Lincoln Park section of Chicago, but really doesn't say much about Coney Island area other then it is there and worth the trip. I assume it would be safe since N. Brooklyn has such a nice description.]
Brighton Beach, the neighborhood where the Q terminates, is populated mainly by Russian immigrants and is an interesting destination in its own right. A walk along the Boardwalk is a can't-miss activity. You're also not far from the NY Aquarium, if you're into that sort of thing.
Unless you're blind, you can see Coney Island from the subway station, because it's IN CONEY ISLAND. You can look every way (even down) and that's Coney Island. There's no park (the green type, I assume you're talking about), there's a beach, and a boardwalk dividing it from the built up area.
Dining around the "Garden" is plentiful, if you want a good but cheap meal and decor is not a priority try one of the many Blarney Rocks, Stones in the area. If decor and a "dining" room is more your style you can try any of the following:
Eamon Doran's 33st. btw. 6th and 7th aves.
The Harp 32nd. " " " " " " " " "
Molly Wees 31st. and 8th ave on the corner
Club 31 31st. btw. 7th and 8th
Stay away from T.G.I.F.s and Charlie O's generic food and over priced.
If you are interested in seeing Letterman check the CBS website for information on how to get tickets.
Hope this helps.
p.s. If it interests you Madison Square Garden offers tours everyday, their website is THE GARDEN.com
Re: MSG ... Also accross the street are lots of fast food shops, and around the corner is Macy's ... you'll miss the REAL Santa as he'll already be back up North :-) At Herald Square there are some shops to spend your money and on 6th Ave one of our fine Express Coaches is waiting to wisk you into Queens ;-)
Mr t
I would say all you questions were answered with good information.
Thanks guys.
One tiny detail: if you go to the Museum of Natural History, take a B or C train to 81st St. The A and D do not stop there. It's a local stop, one of seven in a row, and if you find yourself on an A or D train, you'll experience one of the best express runs in New York - at the expense of missing your stop. Well, it's a good express run on an A train of R-38s, anyway.
I see that you managed to get tons of advice for your BIGGG NYC trip. Go to the Carnegie Deli on 7th Avenue near 55th Street and eat the big corned beef and pastrami sandwich and save some for me.
You need to take PATH to Hoboken and visit the park named after the late Frank Sinatra and his plaque in the sidewalk commemorating his birth place at 415 Monroe Street.
Ride the subways. It's super fun. Have fun!!!
How about the "F" to 2Av for Katz Deli?
THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HAS POSTED THE GREAT INFO. ABOUT NYC FOR MY TRIP IN THE SPRING.
Eugenius D Train- Just making sure about Coney island. The CTA Green Line terminal in Oak Park is called Harlem/Lake after the intersection and is acually 1 1/2 blocks south of the intersection on Harlem and S. blvd. And if you exit the station wrong through the nicer and handicapped accessible entrance you end up on Marion St.
All I can say derogitory is that everything is much more expensive. A ride on Metra compared to the same distance on Metro North costs $2.75 compared to $9.00 .
Atleast the subway still only costs $1.50!
Thanks again
BJ
Well, the subway theoretically costs LESS than $1.50 in many cases.
1. If you buy a card for $15.00 or more you get a 10% bonus, so the rides end up costing only about $1.35.
2. If you get an unlimited ride card, the more you ride, the less it costs.
You should get unlimited rides IF:
One-day: You ride 3 times or more in one day (card costs $4).
7-day: You ride 13 times or more in one week ($17).
30-day: You ride 47 times or more in one month ($63).
For more information visit MTA and click on the Metrocard. Since One-day passes are not sold at booths, only at stores and vending machines, you can find out the stores from the MTA and the location of the vending machines here.
Hi all,
I was reading CTC Board - October 1999 (Issue #252) magazine and saw an article for "A day in North America 1999" that sets October 23rd for all railfans to take pictures that day and will be published later. This is simliar to books like "A Day in life of America, A day in a life of Canada, Russia, etc... (I forget exact title)
My idea is to propose "A day in NYC Subway" or whatever title would be. We set a date for subfans to take pictures around NYC Subway system including SIR.
Since printing books might be out of question and not alot of people would buy it, how about Web edition here on www.nycsubway.org? Any ideas? I would do it, but I live in Colorado and can't do this year due to vacation time was used up this year.
Cheers,
Michael Adler, aka Mailman Mike
Sounds good. Sort of a SubTalk Field Trip in which we all go somewhere else.... Depending on how many people are interested we could cover a lot of major sights/sites :-)
count me in but i need a outside site, no flash on the camera
I WILL BE IN NEW YORK FOR THE LAST WEEK OF OCTOBER TO THE SECOND OR THIRD OF NOVEMBER THIS 1999
where will the railfan subway photographers meet on this
23rd of october ?????????
i will be shooting still pictures and vidieos 8 MM
E MAIL ME AT salaamallah@yahoo,com
THANK YOU !!!!!
For anyone who rides the subways at night, what cars and how many are used for the...
63rd Street Shuttle - 21 Street Queensbridge to 2nd Avenue,
Lefferts Shuttle - Euclid Avenue to Lefferts Boulavard.
How many cars are used for the late night B Train shuttle from 36th Street to Coney Island?
The B Shuttle has four R68A Trains, each whit Four cars in them. But I know that the four cars are now couple into perneit unit so I guess that it is Four R68A, one unit set. Frankly Shuttle will run 2 Car R68 train on it. The #5 run 5 cars unit of R62 on it, I don't know how mary trains on it.
There are 2 R62 trains assigned to the 5, so four shuttle trains are available. However, I don't think more than 2 5 car sets are ever in service on that shuttle at any given time.
BTW, weren't all R68's linked into 4 car sets? Where are these 2 car trains coming from?
All R68s were to be linked with exception of the last group, 2916-2924, which are to remain single for the Franklin Shuttle. 2579's mishap is holding things up for her companions, so those cars that were to link with 2579 will remain single for a while longer.
I wonder how 2579 is?
-Stef
The Lefferts Blvd- Euclid Ave shuttle runs 3 trains I believe. They are maximum length for passenger service. Any car class available will run.
I've never seen an R38 used on the Lefferts Blvd. Shuttle, except for the end of the shuttle's run around 6 Am as an R38 is brought in from the yard to go into service. Only R44 trains get used for this line, at least that's been my experience.
How many cars?
8 car R44, 10car R32 or R38.
I know that...
R-26, R-28, R-29, R-33, R-36, R-33WF, R-36WF = Redbirds
R-32 = Brightliners
R-40 = Silver Bullet Head
Anything Else?
R-33WF and R-36WF were originally Bluebirds.
R-38: Silverliners.
BMT Compartment Car aka Bluebird
BMT Multi-Sectioned Cars: Green Hornet or Blimp,Zephyr,Mutlis
BMT D-Types: Triplexes
BMT Standards: Steels,67 footers,A,B,AX,BX,BT
IRT Low Votage; Low-V,Steinway,Flivvers
IRT High-Voltage: Gibbs,Deckroof, Hedley or Battleships
IRT Composites : Coppersides
R-11: The Million Dollar Train or the Super Duper Train
R-62's when new were referred to by the TA President as Silver Bullets but the name never caught on.
IRT R-Types after GOH were referred to by the TA President as Silver Foxes but were quickly called Redbirds by everyone else.
MNRR M-1's were called Metropolitans
MNRR M-2's were called Cosmopolitans
Larry,RedbirdR33
How about R110--- 22nd Century Car
Actually it's New Tech Train. I like the idea of R-62 as Silver Bullets.
My mother used to refer to the R62's as tin cans....especially after she saw how one was sliced to pieces after the Union Sq. wreck in 1991.
My sister also had a few nickames for the R16 in it's last days, but I can't print them here.
10/06/99
R-40S "SLANTS" , "SHOVEL NOSE"
R-68 unprintable!
E-60 electric loco's "FLYING SHOEBOX"
GG-1 " " "G MOTORS"
MP-54's "OWL EYES" "GOGGLE EYES"
" " arch roof cars "PING PONG "
Bill Newkirk
Actually, the Ping Pongs were the diesel hauled P-54 coaches. Built very light, they tended to bounce a lot when sandwhiched between heavier stuff. Hence the nickname. I doubt the arch roof MP-54s dais this, as they're self propelled (most were at least)
As for flying shoeboxes - you're insulting shoe boxes there!!!
Well E60, how about the AEM7 - Mighty Mouse
Or Mighty Motor(tm)
I was on one south from New Haven, 8 cars. Late (later than normal Amtrak late) I only remember hearing the engineer honk the horn twice then it seemed we were going at least 30mph. I swear the train took off like it was a bunch of NJ Arrows. All this from a little, quiet, unobtrusive box motor (well, it is a box, and it IS a motor...) It was the most impressive thing I've experienced on Amtrak in quite a while. Of course, we still ended up in NYC 15 minutes late. Arrrgghhhhh.
On a side note, I've noticed that the last few trips on Amtrak have seemed to achive higher speeds than last spring's trips. Conductor says they're cleared to 100 on parts of the New Haven line (10mph better than the last conductor I asked about this :), though I don't exactly believe him on this (I thought it was 75 in most places with a jump to 90 - Metro-North DOES hit 90 through Larchmont, I've actually timed as high as 95) - anyone know for certain what the speed limit(s) are on the New Haven line?
I still like Sweedish Meatball better, though Amtrak freaks (which is something I'm definately not - I take them because they're the least of the evils between hartford and NY, and NOT because I think train travel is a magical happy fun experience) seem to call them toasters, which i don't understand since they don't look like toasters, and they don't seem to throw off that much heat.
Oh yes, one neat thing about the E60 - stand and watch one that's just pulled a train into Penn. after about 5 minutes, the fans spin down and the roar gets quieter, though they still seem louder than the AEM-7s (which never really change in pitch or noise level), though not as loud as the P-32s are.
The AEM7's MOVE period. I've been at Princton Junction when a FAST MAIL comes by, sometimes 3 or 4 cars and it seems to be going faster.
The AEM7 can operate faster than 125mph but then they vibrate too much. They are limited to 125mph (overspeed warining and Automatic Train Stop enabled) with max of 6 cars/MHC's. E60's overspeeds are set to 100Mph but they never reach that with amount of cars they always pull.
Plus no deadman switch, 25 second alarm sounds if a control has not been moved or the circut broken with the control stand (lift hands off control) or a reset button pressed then 10 seconds before Automatic Train Stop is activiated. I know an engineer that eats his lunch hand off the controls, just pressing the reset every 25 seconds (or picking up a chip from the control stand).
The control stand is neat, empty are in middle for your timetable, on left is the throttle, on right is the horn and then train line brake then next to that is the engine brake. Far left are the radios and digital readouts for the motor and current draw. In front are a speedometer and more engine dials. There is also a second digital speedometer as well.
This is HIGHSPEED in America today. We'll see what Acela (Amtrack Customers Expect Late Arrivals) does....
" ... Acela (Amtrack Customers Expect Late Arrivals) ...."
Lou, That's the best one yet ... and it sure does fit !
Mr t__:^)
Wait a minute! I heard the nickname toasters applied to the GENESIS engines.
Henry J. Lineswitch
The P32 and the FL9ACs are 'Starships' on MNCR.
And after the re-routed 5 I rode this morning on the B'way IRT, the Redbirds should be changed to Rustbirds. I actually saw a windowframe SHAKING seperate from the train.
-Hank
The AEM 7's are known as the "Sweedish Meatballs"
How about "Silver Snails for the R-68s (sorry, Steve)
I think "blimps" is a good R-68 nickname, with all due respect.
I heard the BMT Multis called "Cheeseboxes" by Walther Broschart at a New York Division Meeting back in the 60's. Was this a term used by anyone else ever? Railfans, BMT motormen?
10/11/99
I think we have forgotten the nickname for the C.T.A. 6000's PCC subway cars. "SPAM CANS" I heard the LIRR M-1's were also given that name.
Bill Newkirk
Cheeseboxes? Road runners sounds better, as fast as they were.
R-38 as "silverliner" doesn't sound right. Maybe if it had a pantograph on it :)
Oh yes, and I'm surprised, nobody mentioned the slant (no wait, that's slant) 40, and the R-68's nickname :)
Oh yes, and the R-32s were the brightliners.
As for heavier stuff, I don't recall any nicknames for the MP-54s, though the MP-73 (75?) cars were "zips", and the Fairbanks-Morse (remember them?) locomotives the LIRR had were C-Liners. Not to mention (I read this in a New Haven forum) the FL-9: F%^$ing Lousey Nines! Or FL-4 1/2 - take your pick :)
The EP-5s were the "Jets" (someone also said "dim bulbs", which I guess refers to either a tendancy to suck power on third rail, or a tendancy to suck power as a result of an electrical short), and nobody knows what the Washboards were really called. And what's a MUt? Oh yes, the GG-1s were just G's, and the PRR MP-54s were the Paoli Local, no matter where they went. Path had passenger boxcars, but the Lacawanna's electrics were just that - electric.
Ok - anyone wanna guess who ran (and what are) the Flatbottoms, Rat's, BiPolars, Virginians, Big Blows, Sweedish Meatballs, Electroliners, Arrows, Blueliners, and U-boats?
U-Boats, diesel engines by GE with disgination U-###
Sweedish Meat Balls, an Amtrak engine made in Sweeden
Electrioliners, Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee elect. interurban
Arrows, MUs on NJ Transit
Mr t__:^)
SEPTA has Silverliners (The equivalent of the NJT Arrow without center doors)
BiPolars were electric locomotives used by the Milwaukee Rd. through the Rockies and Cascades. They were equipped for "regenerative braking", which was feeding electricity back into the wire as they braked down hill.
-- Ed Sachs
I had heard the Lackawannas MUS called the Edison cars.....
Sweedish Meatballs = AEM7s
U Boats = All GE diesel locos starting witht the U18-U50
Virginians = the Electric locos bought by Penn Central (or was it New Haven?) to replace ailing New HAven Box electrics in freight service
Flatbottoms are probably the R-22 garbage I'm stuck with today, otherwise known as stagecoaches. I heard the term flatbottom used primarily on original equipment GE cars though. The GE U-22B (U-Boats) locomotives were used in both freight and passenger service.
How about:
R-10 - German Panzer Tank
R-68 - wallowing beached whale, hippopotamus
How about the H&M 'black cars'? Not to mention calling the H&M the "McAdoo Tunnels" (The term Hudson Tubes was official right?)
What about R142 & R143? Oh i got it let call "Millennium Silver Cars Or Millennium Silver Bullet or Millennium Steel. Which one is better & it not than what do you call R142 & R143.
Peace Out
Meaney
How bout just "beer cans"?
How about the "Invisible Wonders", because I haven't seen them yet and probably wont for a while ...
I think the R40M and R42 are Silver Bullet Heads - I simply refer to the regular R40s as "The Slants", it appears that many others do too.
I used to refer to the non-A/C Slants as "Hotboxes" (borrowing the railroad term for overheated journal bearing) because they were simply unbearable in the summertime. Now, they're quite the opposite (thanks to the folks at Sumitomo).
Wayne
Haven't seen anyone post a nick name for: R42, R44, R46, R62, R62A ?
(I'm not talking about something we make up here, e.g. R68 Hippo)
Mr t__:^)
The IND Queens motormen call the R46's "Cadillac." I call the R44's strait-jackets due to the ultra small cabs for us portly people. The real "sh**cans" are the CI rebuilt R42's (4840-4949). They are rattletraps, a very poor rebuilding effort compared to the M/K cars.
When I was younger, I learned that the R62's on the 4 were known as Silver Foxes, I still go by that name for the R62 and the R62a's today.........
3TM
Sorry, but "Silver Fox" referred to the Redbirds: Silver for the roof, and Fox for the fox red paint.
Incidentally, the overhauled slant R-40s were known as Silver Bullets when they first came back from Sumitomo. The original air-conditioned slant R-40s were overhauled after the non-air-conditioned cars, but were painted before they went out so they could be in the Clean Car Program; these cars were known as "Silver Bullsh*ts."
David
[When I was younger, I learned that the R62's on the 4 were known as Silver Foxes, I still go by that name for the R62 and the R62a's today.........]
Please remember that the R-32's were originally known as the
Brightliners and the blue R-36's were known as the World's Fair
SMEE cars. The original Redbirds were the red R-29/33's and
R-36's 9524-57.
10/09/99
When describing the old ALCO diesels belching thick black smoke they weren't awarded a nickname,but rather a short sentence:
HONORARY STEAM ENGINES !!
Bill Newkirk
Mr Paul Matus mentioned in an earlier post that the Franklin Avenue Line portal just north of Prospect Park is one of the last remaining railroad type portals on the subway system.
I came think of at least one other;the Dyckman Street Portal of the Fort Washington Tunnel on the IRT Contract I Broadway Boulevard Line.
Although the Dyre Avenue Line was built as a railroad operation the tunnel portals at Morris Park and north of Pelham Parkway look like regular subway ones.
What about where IND yard leads to the Jamaica Yard, I can't recall what they look like? Can anyone name some others?
Larry,RedbirdR33
What's the difference between an RR type portal and a subway type portal?
I would have to say that the railroad type portals usually were two tracked and had a rounded arch while the subway protals might be two or three track and cut at right angles with on adonement.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Right. I believe a railroad type portal is rounded (and that was related mostly to the fact that steam locomotives orginially ran through them). Subway type portals are squared at the top as like any other subway tunnel structure.
Doug aka BMTman
Wouldn't you get square with the cut and cover method and round with the boreing method in creating the tunnel?
That's correct. The 6th Ave. line has what I would call a combination of sorts north of 42nd St. After the tunnels were finished, grout was forced into place using a form which resulted in rounded corners. There are photos of this in Building the Independent Subway. You can see this on an F train headed out of 47-50th Sts. to 5th Ave. OTOH, the tunnels to 7th Ave. are the round, deep-bore style.
He thought it was the only one in the City, IIRC. The others are, Dyckman St under Ft. Washington hill, and St. George, Staten Island, under the federal building. Maybe some on the LIRR in Queens and Brooklyn?
-Hank
the path portal in jersey city has a rebuilt front is round like a rr
the path portal in jersey city has a rebuilt front is round like a rr
I spoke to someone in the Education Department at the Transit Museum today. He told me that there are no plans to run any antique equipment on the Shuttle, or anywhere else for that matter, on October 27th. Apparently, the reason for this is NOT, as some have speculated here, the refusal of TA workers to repair the asbestos-holding Standards..according to him, with the Museum getting ready to close for renovation, they just dont have the ability to do something like get out the Standards.
I find this sad...the greatest subway system in the world, celebrating (allegedly) its 95th anniversary, and no one can find the time to get these trains out, even for just a couple of runs, to commemorate the day? If not the Standards, then maybe some of the not-quite-as-old, but still srvicable trains to mark the occasion. But then, it doesn't seem that even the Transit Museum, the people who allegedly care about these things, give enough of a damn to do something.
P.S. The guy did say that they have advance plans for a "HUGE" celebration of the 100th anniversary, involving antique equipment among other things. From my point of view, this assumes the antique trains will still be serviceable in five more years...
That's good enough for me. You'll never know what might be on the road in five years, provided that there are people out there willing to work with the vintage car collection.
-STEF
10.06/99
Well five years from now,10/04/04 will be the Centeninial. The TA should do something to commemerate this milestone. It only happens once. Volunteers are fine, but will it meet the deadline? A centennial only happens once. The TA should see that the cars are up and running. Even if private contractors (MK etc) are involved. In fact that's a great idea. Those transit rebuilders need a challenge to prove they can do the job. Taking basket case museum cars and making them servicable once again and on time will open doors for fan trips,movie and publicity shoots.
Bill Newkirk
I believe you're referring to the Lo-Vs.
Oct. 27, 2004 will fall on Wednesday, as it does this year. One way or another, I will be there!
I will be up at Branford this Saturday for the subway days. Does anyone else plan on going? It would be nice to meet some of the other sub-talkers?
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'll be there.
I'll be there on Saturday. You'll know who I am because I'll be riding the R17 up and down the line, as well as wearing a black hat with the name "Kangol" on it. A hat is the best way to identify a person...
Cheers,
Stef
Well I don't know about you gents, but if the SubTalk Community gets together, Autumn in NY should be considered a SubTalk Field Trip. Pictures, pictures, and more pictures...
Thoughts are welcome.
-Stef
I may / may not be there depending on a) If I can get a ride up to Seashore this weekend (currently looks off) and b)If I feel like kicking myself out of bed early and taking the bus down to New Haven. (Amtrak? On a saturday morning? From Hartford? Forget it!) If I'm there, I'm the scrapy long haired 21 year old with glasses who may / may not be wearing snow camo pants, depending on Maytag availability this week!! Oh, and a black t-shirt. I don't think I have anything BUT black tshirts...
I'll know by late thursday / friday.
I'm thinking of going up on Saturday. I often
describe myself as a tall skinny Woody Allen. But
I'm most notable for making R9 compressor sounds and
air brake sounds. I'm going up to get in tune with
a real R9. I'm the kind of fan that other buffs
find embarrassing. Why does he have to act that
way? Actually I don't do those things. I listen to the sounds on my walkman. There's an easy listening station in New York City that plays subway sounds. It's a little hard to find on the dial though. My
offer is still open for the R9 tapes, and if anyone
wants a copy, let me know and I'll bring up some
copies. I'll probably take Metro North up and may
bring my bike along. So if you're driving watch out
for some dope on a bike.
I'll be there with the wife and nephew... well in order to get a car it comes with da nephew...Saturday afternoon I'll try to be there around noon 1pm. Can't miss me, I'm 6'8 and will have a young blond 6 year old nephew with me and I'll also be the one begging the wife for one more ride on the R17....
Trying to figure out something to do Sunday with the nephew up there.. I have yet to get my wife to agree to two days at Branford UGH!!!
Hey, Lou.
I'll see you at Branford! (Too bad FS didn't work out this week).
Doug aka BMTman
I'll be looking for ya Doug. I'll keep my eye out at Prospect Park for ya!!
Lou, Suggest to the wife Yale Univ. ... can probally get on a tour, or Barnum's Circus Museum just down the road a piece at Bridgeport. There you can also get the ferry back to Port Jeff., a nice ride.
There's also a steam museum at Essex and, as a last resort, you'll see malls all along 95 (could stop on your way back AFTER a Sunday AM at Branford).
Also if you take 15 vs. 95 back in the afternoon it's a real nice ride ... they call it the Green Tunnel.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Thurstan,
We did Essex Steam train last year. NY Days and Thomas the Tank Engine ended up on the SAME Sunday. We did do the Port Jeff ferry back. My nephew got a kick out of it. We didn't tell him we were gonna do it, just drove up on the boat Hehe.
The Circus Musuem sounds good idea. Didn't think of it, I had an xboss who is now the CTO in Florida for them but never went to the one in CT.
I'll be arriving early, maybe in the company of one new CUSTOMER & one other member. Since I'm only qualified to RIDE the subways, at this point, I may be sitting next to you or between the tracks trying to throw a switch. In June the trolley conductors were doing that when Jeff & company took over their RxR to run the subways cars. It's a nice group of folks up their who love anything that rolls on steel wheels.
Funnest comment I heard their last October was by the Dispatcher: "We'll be running a subway car in a few minutes to Short Beach when the subway guys get through playing with their trains" (Jeff & friends needed to do a bunch of switching of cars to get a different car positioned on the high platform) ... it was a labor of love.
P.S. The turnstile in PCC 1001 takes tokens, but not MetroCards.
Mr t__:^)
Dave Wallace and I will be there on Sunday, along with my younger son. I expect we'll arrive a little after noon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be heading up on Sunday afternoon with the wife. I was there in the spring and had a great time. It's not everyday you get to ride a piece of history.
Sorry about the question mark at the end of the last sentence. I meant to say that it would be nice to know if any one else is going to Branford this Saturday so that maybe we could meet there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
According to a story in the Boston Globe, the MBTA has suspended payments to Breda for the new Type-8 trolley cars. Only 13 have been delivered to date, with just five accepted in service. The plan had been to have 42 in service by this date.
The main items include unspecified propulsion system problems, faulty fault monitoring units (!), and troubles with the auxiliary power supply units. The MBTA says there are no safety issues, which is why the five cars accepted remain in service.
The MBTA has already paid Breda $110 million, about half of the value of the contract. No further payments will be made until all problems have been rectified, and deliveries catch up. Breda officials are in Boston "studying the problems."
Looks like the MBTA has hit a bit of a bump with the type 8s. But I'm glad they are still running the accepted 5. A few weeks ago, they had to take a type 8 out of service (while it was running) because the wheels/brakes were locking. Also, Breda needs to catch up on building the type 8s, apparently they are short staffed, which is part of the cause for the delay.
Also, I'v eheard rumours that the modifying of the type 7s is having it's own set of problems....anyone have info on that? -Nick
I'm all for 2nd Avenue and extending the 7 and the L and restoring Broadway Express, etc. But the latest political catch phrase seems to be Suburban Sprawl. So... jumping on the political bandwagon, what might be a major project which could be sold on the "fight Suburban sprawl" premis. Something like a North Hudson tunnel for Metronorth into Nayak or Orange County, or expansion/improvement of LIRR.
Any ideas?
Try a PATH train from the Meadowlands into the city Crosstown at 125 connections at 125th street stations, over the East River, connection with N at Astoria Blvd and then to Laguardia. Park and Rides at the Meadowlands and Laguardia.
Uh-oh! We are getting close to Fantasy Time again!:>)
Yes, I had once proposed such a line that ran from Newark Airport, Downtown Newark, Meadowlands, across 110th Street with connections at 8th Avenue and Lexington, and then to the N in Astoria before connecting to Laguardia and then one more stop at Shea Stadium.
I think this is a great Idea that satisfies a variety of transport needs including 2 airports and 2 sports complexes as well as everyday commuters.
I agree with you. I never thought of Newark and Shea but you're right that would be great. Do you agree that it should be a PATH?
Yes, PATH seems to make the most sence since they are already a bridge and tunnle and airport kinda thing.
How's about building a connection between SIRT and PATH via Bayonne? Or when/if that rail-freight tunnel between Brooklyn and NJ gets built maybe a train of PATH cars could be run through the tunnel during rush-hour periods.
Just some random thoughts that are more likely in Fantasy Land.
Doug aka BMTman
High Rise projects and Donald Trump's plans are the ultimate answers to suburban sprawl.
Do you like it?
Yes. In fact I think it's an embarassment that NY no longer has the world's tallest building. Technology allows us to build buildings tens of times taller than any which exist today. NY needs and deserves the world's first mile-high skyscraper. Only Donald Trump has the guts to build it and when he does, NY will once again take its rightful place in the annals of history.
Some people in Chicago may quibble with that assertion. After all, it was Chicago that invented the skyscraper. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL (and proud of it!)
www.NthWard.com
Who would want to go that high up? I'd hate to be on the top floor when the elevator broke down!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or how about when the building is swaying on a windy day? I used to work on the 36th floor of Chicago's IBM building, and had to leave work early one day because of motion sickness during a severe thunderstorm with unusually strong winds. For a while I couldn't figure out why I was feeling so nauseous, then I realized the wind was hitting the broad face of the building and causing it to sway. Sure enough, I stood very still and could just barely feel the building moving -- It took about ten seconds for it to complete a full cycle.
Chicago's John Hancock Center is designed to sway 18 inches at the top during a 100 MPH wind. Every so often Chicagoans have a fascinating glimpse of how the wind flows around a tall skyscraper: On a foggy or cloudy night when the cloud ceiling is just at the level of the bright band of lights on the top floor of the Hancock Center, it's possible to actually see the wind as it flows around the building, creating whirlpools and eddies that alternate from side to side of the building and thus cause it to sway. It's really quite incredible to watch, and engineers spend millions of dollars trying to re-create that effect in a wind tunnel.
It's technically possible to build a mile-high tower, but not very practical. The cost would be so astronomical that nobody could ever hope to make a profit on such a venture. And just the commute from the ground floor to the top would be unbearably long. Elevators are limited to a speed of about 20 MPH due to passengers' ears popping with the change in air pressure, and on a building that height it would be neccesary to transfer between elevators a number of times; a single elevator shaft that tall would create stack pressures that would implode the doors at the street level. The plumbing systems would have to be on a superior level of sophistication as those used on Navy submaries.
Also, FAA regulations limit the height of towers to 2000 feet (Sears Tower is already 1454' to the structral top, plus a couple hundred feet more for the transmission towers); anything taller requires an act of Congress for approval. The transmission towers on the new building proposed for 7 South Dearborn will reach an elevation of exactly 2000 feet.
Skyscrapers happen to be a topic I feel even more passionately about than subways! :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
A few questions Dave.
You mentioned something about elevators. There is a gap between cars and the shaft wall. That would allow enough pressure to travel between the top and bottom "half" of the car. That would allow the pressure to equalize. Some tall buildings have a elevator well where the cars run up and down a large open space.
The problem as I see it would be fire or smoke. The building will have to be pressurize. If not a fire or a smoke condition would cause havoc for the top floors. If a window is broken, that would cause problems too. The stairwells would have to be broken up into sections.
If windows are broken high up or if the stairwell is too long extending from the bottom to the top of the building, just opening the doors and breaking windows would create a powerful vacuum. That would suck the air from the bottom of the building all the way to the top.
I think this exist for all high buildings due to thinner air near the top. May not be as powerful as a broken airplane window but you will really feel something.
Anyone can add anything?
It is not possible to pressurize a large building such as a skyscraper... Just too many joints and openings.
Regarding elevators, I was referring to stack pressures. This is the phenomenon when, especially on cold days, air rushes in at the ground floor and rushes out the top floors, using elevator shafts as the cunduit. I'm not sure of all the physics involved, but it's been compared to the way a smokestack or chimney works. This is the main reason tall buildings have revolving doors; there is always a continuous break between the interior and exterior of the building.
In the Sears Tower, there are also revolving doors at the entrance to the express elevator that leads to the Skydeck, as well as on the skylobbies between the express and local elevators.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Either the History or Learning Channel's "Modern Marvels" Series had a show last spring/summer about skyscrapers. It was very interesting---if you didn't catch it, keep an eye out for it.
There are ways to address the fire issues. Perhaps this is what you were alluding to, but in some tall buildings the stairwells become highly pressurized during a fire condition. If you open the door to a stairwell while the fire alarm is going off, you will be hit with a huge blast of air. I know this is the case in the 57-story building I work in. I'm not sure how these systems work, but I imagine it does the same thing for the elevator shafts, which should address any fire issues.
Maybe so, but the Flatiron Building in Manhattan was the first high-rise to have a steel framework, instead of massive load bearing outer walls.
That's not exactly true. Daniel Burnham (Flatiron Arcitect) built several buildings in Chicago pryor to the Flatiron (1903) Louis Sullivan operated out of Chicago, though his first skyscraper was, I believe, in St. Louis, Anyway, Modern Architecture, and the Skyscraper did come out of the "Chicago School" of architecture as a renasaunce of inovative buildings and city planning exploded onto the scene immediately following the Great Chicago Fire of the 1870s. In fact Daniel Burnham designed the New City Plan for Chicago after the fire.
Wrong!
The first skyscraper to incorporate a skelatal frame was the now-demolished Home Insurance Building in Chicago, designed by William LeBaron Jenny and completed in 1885. This was quickly followed by other skeletal-frame buildings by Jenny, Sullivan and Burnham.
New York's Flatiron Building wasn't built until 1902. Also, I may point out that the Flatiron was designed by a Chicago architect (Daniel Burnham) and is actually considered a classic example of the Chicago School of Architecture.
And Chicago makes better pizza!!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Yes, that's what I was driving at. I believe that Sullivan started out working for Jenny. Also, Sullivan designed true Skyscrapers in St. Louis and in Buffalo pryor to the construction of the Flatiron building in New York. Sullivan only designed one building in New York, the Bayard building which I think is on Bleeker street. 78 Bleeker comes to mind.
Incidentally, I am writing this from inside the Flatiron Building.
[High Rise projects and Donald Trump's plans are the ultimate answers to suburban sprawl.]
Projects like these don't really deal with the sprawl issue at all. Most of the proposed solutions to suburban sprawl call for encouraging higher-density residential and employment development in and near urban cores. So far so good. But a highrise co-op on the Upper East Side can be said to combat sprawl only if we assume that most of the buyers would otherwise purchase houses in ever-more-distant exurban developments. I find that a rather difficult assertion to accept. Affluent people who want to live in Manhattan aren't going to be interested in some subdivision in eastern Suffolk or Monmouth County or some equally distant area.
Housing developments in the outer boroughs or nearby suburbs might indeed be antidotes to sprawl in the sense that they might be competing for buyers with distant areas. Of course, the New York area has long since reached such a high level of development that there generally isn't much available land for these closer-in developments, and what it available is too expensive for most people. Suburban (or, more accurately, exurban) sprawl is nearly inevitable in this region. About the only way it would be stopped is if the economy deteriorated to the point that new construction dried up. I highly doubt anyone wants that.
We often throw around words such as Suburban and Exurban without having exact definitions.
My take on these terms is:
Suburban - An area where people live outside a city and which is close enough to the city so that the people who live there could commute to the city everyday for work
Exurban - An area where people live outside the suburbs of a city which is too far away from the city for people to commute to the city everyday but is close enough to the suburbs for people to commute to the suburbs everyday to work.
I heard these definitions:
Suburban: Were most local streets have multiple outlets, principal streets are part of a public transport corridor (usually bus) and most stores are standalone with parking in the rear. Sidewalks are available on the main streets and many side streets. Houses usually come with a small property all around and sometimes houses are in rows (attatched, semi-attatched). Many parts of the outer boroughs would be considered suburban, but aren't because of their political jurisdiction.
Exurban: Local streets have few outlets, main streets are usually empty and contain no transport, sidewalks are rare. Houses are usually on properties that might be as large as the house.
OOPS! Forgot to mention that in exurbia, subdivisions are often spaced farther where in suburbia they usually border. And in exurbia, parking lots are IN FRONT of the common store. Although that last one has me puzzled (strip malls with front parking aren't considered exurban are they? or most regular malls?).
[re definitions of suburbs vs. exurbs]
Geographical distance from the center city seems to be the main distinction between suburbs and exurbs. That isn't to say that there's a clear dividing line, you can't draw a circle with a radius of X miles around the city and use it as a reliable marker, but in looking at a particular community it's often possible to make the distiction. Using Long Island as an example, it's reasonable to say that Manhasset is a suburb while Patchogue is an exurb - even though Manhasset more neatly fits the physical description of an exurb that you spelled out in your message while Patchogue is more like a suburb - based on their distances from Manhattan. It might be possible to make a more precise distinction based on the percentage of residents who commute to the center city.
I would say a suburb looks directly to a specific city as its economic base--the majority of income comes from people who live in the city, or have jobs that service those who do. An exurb may or may not have a direct relationship to the nearest city, but could stand on its own.
Looking to transit, I might draw the borderline on Long Island depending on where the commuter zone ends: a line from Port Jeff to Ronkonkoma to Speonk.
Terms like suburb become less meaningful as the economy shifts. When I moved to Long Island almost 30 years ago, except for defense contractors (mostly Grumman) better paid clerical/technical work seemed to be mostly back offices of NYC companies. Now there is a new (at least for LI) phenomenon: companies (mostly techs) that draw on the skilled workforce that would otherwise have to work in a core city. So this phenomenon encourages growth that is "none of the above."
What about residential and commerical development of the Jersey waterfront with a #7 or L train stop on the Jersey side?
Or PATH expansion for that matter?
What about a Subway link to Staten Island combigned with residential development of that area?
[What about residential and commerical development of the Jersey waterfront with a #7 or L train stop on the Jersey side?
Or PATH expansion for that matter?
What about a Subway link to Staten Island combigned with residential development of that area?]
You're correct, the Jersey waterfront is probably one of the very few remaining areas that are both close to the urban core and available for development at (semi-) reasonable prices. It would be an antidote for suburban sprawl if the residents would otherwise be looking in the distant suburbs. I doubt that's really the case, however. My suspicion is that most new residents on the Jersey waterfront are "urbanophiles" who've been priced out of Manhattan and have no interest in commuting two hours each way from the outer-ring exurban areas.
As far as Staten Island is concerned, it's my impression that most of the new development is really more suburban than urban. At least, the commuting times generally aren't what you'd expect for city housing.
Why hasn't SIRT expanded into Manhattan? They should've constructed a tunnel for SIRT or a subway connection to Manhattan. The ferry is so old fashioned, and now that we're gonna be in a new centry perhaps Staten Island should finally have rail access to Manhattan.
Well, they actually did begin construction on a tunnel to Brooklyn a long, long time ago, but that project got scuttled for a variety of reasons. I doubt they'll ever consider another tunnel under the harbor at this point in time, regardless of its destination. There are enough NIMBYs on Staten Island (and elsewhere) to keep that from happening.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems that a freight rail tunnel is on the way. Once built, someone will no doubt notice that it is under used and suggest putting passenger traffic through it part of the day.
They still haven't decided whether the tunnel will run right out of Greenville, or come from Statan Island. There are advantages and disadvantages to both routings. Running it from SI to Brooklyn will keep it entirely within the city, but running it from Greenville is more direct. Considering how deep the tunnel will have to go, it will be in no way conveinient for commuters; in any case, a direct line to Manhattan would be the prefered route for a cross-harbor commuter tunnel.
-Hank
A tunnel might be viewed as a (monstrously expensive) solution in search of a problem. In other words, there's really no compelling need for one. Staten Island has been growing quite nicely without any rail transit connection. You should see the amount of residential construction in the southern part of the island. All of the people buying these houses obviously have done so with full knowledge that there's no tunnel to Manhattan or elsewhere. Either they're satisfied with the SIRT/Ferry combination or the express buses, or they don't work in Manhattan. Absent any overwhelming clamor for a tunnel, there's little point in considering one.
A freight tunnel is critically needed. It's grotesque that the most transit-oriented city in the nation depends on trucks for almost all its goods.
The Giuliani Administration is the first in 3/4 of a century to take this seriously (I've met the responsible City official in this area) but the issue (New York's standing in the national freight market) os a big yawn to most everyone else.
Once the freight crosses the harbor, it will still have to travel on a truck. A tunnel would remove some trucks from the Staten Island Expressway and George Washington Bridge, and perhaps (at the expense of passenger service) from the LIE, but not from anywhere else. This will free up more road space for cars.
The only way to make it pay is if you had drive-on drive off service similar to the Chunnel, so trucks in addition to trains could travel across by rail. Truckers would take their break and ride, rather than pay bridge tolls and sit in traffic.
Why don't we take the reverse of that theory, then.
Get rid of all railroads, which will force more trucks on the highway, which will reduce space for cars, so everyone will then ride mass transit.
Wow, that was easy!
(On the serious side)
Sure, why not a chunnel arrangement for trucks.
The plan to get rid of trucks and cars is the right one. Once acomplished, lanes of NYC streets should be given back to pedestrians, and cyclists. If it were me, I would reclaim 4 lanes of park Avenue, and install greenery, bike exclusive lanes, and a pedestrian promenade. I would also take back 1 lane of 5th Avenue between Madison Square Park and 57th Street and 1 lane of 6th between Herald Square and 57th Street and add 3.5 feet of sidewalk space on either side. That will disuade motorists from filling in for all the missing trucks.
Also, what about a super hydorfoil ferry service for trucks to bypass the city by crossing the bay and the Long Island Sound???
Nope. They move in, buy themselves an SUV, buy their 17-y-o a brand-new Honda, Toyota, Mazda, or 5-yo Blazer, and then bitch about how there's no TA x-bus service way out there.
-Hank
10/07/99
Getting back to that idea of resurecting a passenger train tunnel from Staten Island to Brooklyn. Finishing a short tunnel to 59th St and 4th Avenue would be a long ride to Manhattan. Don't forget the Montague St tunnel or the rickity manhattan Bridge. Next there are those unused tunnel pockets at Whitehall St,but that tunnel would be 5 miles long and cost millions and take years to build! A sort of mini "Chunnel".
Now let's say they actually build the tunnel,I know,were talking fantasy here. That would affect S.I.Rwy by making changes to the Tottenville line and rebuilding the north shore Arlington line too. Forget the South Beach line,some of the R.O.W. is already built on and I can't see a grade crossing on the Verrazano Bridge toll plaza! If the subway from Manhattan to Staten Island were reality,would those B&O signals remain? And how about the Staten Island Ferry? Greatly curtailed or eliminated.
But don't worry,Bill Newkirk is just fantasizing. We're just getting started fantasizing about the Second Avenue subway! The abbreviated version!
Bill Newkirk
P.S. I remember back in the sixties when riding the S.I.ferry boats that the map of Staten Island located near the restrooms not shown the Tottenville branch but also the South beach branch along with the Verrazano Bridge plaza!! Now they were fantasizing!
Most of the traffic congestion related to suburban sprawl is caused by suburb to suburb commuting. Additional mass transit into Manhattan is not going to relieve it one bit. The interstates in NJ for example were designed with the commute into Manhattan (or Philadelphia) in mind. But you still won't find too many NJ residents complaining about being able to work in NJ, and thus not having to pay NYS non-resident taxes, and not having to deal with NJT every day. These communities are sprawling because people and businesses want to locate there, it's called the free market. Get used to it.
[Most of the traffic congestion related to suburban sprawl is caused by suburb to suburb commuting. Additional mass transit into Manhattan is not going to relieve it one bit. The interstates in NJ for example were designed with the commute into Manhattan (or Philadelphia) in mind. But you still won't find too many NJ residents complaining about being able to work in NJ, and thus not having to pay NYS non-resident taxes, and not having to deal with NJT every day. These communities are sprawling because people and businesses want to locate there, it's called the free market. Get used to it.]
You've touched upon the main weakness of mass transit. It's mainly suitable for moving people in and out of a central point. With commuter rail in the NYC area, Manhattan is of course that central point. But transit is largely unsuitable for travel between multiple origins and multiple destinations, which is what you have with suburb-to-suburb commuting. I'm as much of a transit advocate as anyone, yet I recognize these limitations.
There is no way of stopping suburb-to-suburb commuting, at least no ways that would be acceptable in a free society. Making the cities more attractive places in which to do business is the best we can do.
(Its the free market, get used to it).
Actually, its zoning and infrastructure policy. The free market would provide denser development than what we get today. In fact, on Staten Island people are screaming for the city to stop the free market and limit the density of development on the South Shore.
What happens in New Jersey is what my profs at Rutgers call the "infrastructure snake dance." Rural America is heavily subsidized -- you can't build a road with 1/4 of a lane, or 1/4 of a phone wire, or a school with 1/4 class per grade, so city and suburban residents have been taxed to provide a minimum level of service in the countryside. "Natural capacity" also allows rural dwellers to live without some infrastructure -- they can have septic and wells instead of water and sewer. So there is all this unused infrastructure and natural capacity out there ready to be used.
So developers start building on the exurban fringe. At first they just use up the unused capacity, and everyone is happy. But they keep building.
Pretty soon the schools are overloaded, the two-lane roads are congested, the schools are overcrowded, the groundwater is polluted, etc. A year ago I tried to drive home from the Catskills on route 23 in NJ instead of the Thruway. The traffic backed up through several light cycles in several spots, and it took me hours, on a Sunday. Everyone is upset about "sprawl."
So now you need to four lane the roads, bring in public water and sewer, build schools, etc. Who pays? City residents used to, but not so much anymore. Country people don't fell like, and cannot afford, to pay high local taxes for urban services. So you get a battle between the original country residents, the first newcomers, and the "new" newcomers and their builders.
It aint the market. It's a mess.
My south shore friends can scream all they want because this last housing boom has made the whole downzoning issue virtually moot. At least here in New Dorp we are zoned R3-1, mostly ranches and a few semi-s. Oakwood is still zoned R2. The fault here lies with a greedy NYC desperate for property taxes. This goes on and on and on. There's no great answer is there?
Here in Nassau county though, traffic does seem to concentrate on the Nassau HUB, which is centered around Roosevelt Field, and the Mineola, Hempstead, Garden City, and Westbury area. It seems that alot of people in the county work and shop in this central region. Perhaps mass transit would really work in this area, with subways/rail links from different parts of the county, and a light rail HUB system.
Traffic is becoming near gridlock in the Nassau HUB, and something has to be done about it, and the hell with the NIMBYs.
Not especially, but anything is better that car culture and suburban sprawl. There must be some better ideas out there.
I don't agree that anything is better than car culture and suburban sprawl.
If anything were better, there'd be a lot less suburban sprawl.
A favorite book of my older daughter's (mine, too) is The Little House by Virginia Lee Burton, a children's book. It's the story of a cottage which starts out on a dirt road way out in the country and wonders what the Big City is like. Over the years the house no longer needs to wonder. Bit by bit, the City comes to it. First a paved road, then tract housing, then trolleys, then huge office buildings, and elevated line and a subway.
Now I know that may sound like railfan heaven and the book itself is probably more about youthful dreams and the development of values, but I grew up in Brooklyn with a scenario that was a bit of a microcosm of the book.
One family houses became two family. A school was built across the street and all the street trees died, never replaced. Two family houses gave way to row houses on smaller and smaller lots. Individual houses were torn down as more blocks became solid rows of apartment houses. The Parade Grounds, once a wide open ball and recreation field was divided, fenced and paved.
You might consider that intense human concentration is not everyone's cup of tea. The typical house in my "sprawly" suburban area is on a 50 x 100 lot and more and more houses are being shoehorned into every available space. Even at this level of density, there is still room for plants and trees, birds and squirrels, even some bats, raccoons and possums. But for how long?
A lot of Brooklyn was like that not too long ago. Do you wonder why some people move out?
The people pushing anti-sprawl politically are hypocrites. They say they don't want people spreading out onto undeveloped land. But whenever someone proposes redevelopment in the city, they oppose it.
Who are these people you are talking about? Do you have any specific examples?
("Environmentalists against city development -- who are they).
The Sierra Club and NRDC come out against just about every possible reuse of disused industrial land in NYC, except for parkland. And the Brooklyn Heights crowd demands that redevelopment in Downtown Brooklyn be stopped because of too much traffic and air pollution (their current objection is to the new federal courthouse and a movie theater). Every NIMBY nut in the city hides behind "the environment."
And here on the north shore, the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor opposes every effort to revitalize run down industrial sites. They oppose ferry being built at Glenwood Landing site. They opposed a supermarket in the wasted acres of Roslyn. They say they "oppose irresponsible development" but they have opposed every revitalization effort for sites in Glen Cove, Glenwood Landing, and Roslyn.
-------
Sick of CSHH controlling the agenda and supressing growth in Glen Cove
visit http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
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[You might consider that intense human concentration is not everyone's cup of tea. The typical house in my "sprawly" suburban area is on a 50 x 100 lot and more and more houses are being shoehorned into every available space. Even at this level of density, there is still room for plants and trees, birds and squirrels, even some bats, raccoons and possums. But for how long?
A lot of Brooklyn was like that not too long ago. Do you wonder why some people move out?]
To some extent, I agree with what you say - high density's not everyone's cup of tea, and losing the last bit of "nature" in a suburban neighborhood does diminish the quality of life. I tend not to give the squirrels and rabbits in my neighborhood much thought. But I'd miss them if they were gone.
Yet despite all this, I have a very difficult time criticizing development, indeed I get a twinge of satisfaction every time I see a foundation being dug. Presumably this is a case of past experiences influencing present reactions. I lived in Connecticut during the early 1990s when the "Great Recession" shattered the state's economy and the lives of its residents. Not to sound melodramatic or anything, but it was a time when everything was in decline except despair. When the houses that didn't have "for sale" signs in the front yard had signs announcing foreclosure sales. When the few fast-food places that advertised minimum-wage job openings were bombarded by _hundreds_ of applicants. When it seemed like a steady parade of businesses announced that they'd be relocating to other parts of the country. And when, germane to the sprawl issue, there was virtually no construction activity whatsoever. So while I'm sorry to see the loss of our remaining open spaces, I'm eternally thankful that there's enough economic vitality for the open spaces to be threatened.
A good book that would go along well with this discussion has just come out: "Of Cabbages and Kings County: Agriculture and the Formation of Modern Brooklyn". The authors are Marc Linder & Lawrence S. Zacharias. The publisher is University of Iowa Press ISBN 0-87745-670-4.
It deals with the politics, real estate greed and sociology that went into turning Brooklyn from one of the largest vegetable farming centers into a urban branch of NYC. Should be an interesting read.
My office got an advance copy so it may not be available just yet.
Doug aka BMTman
[A good book that would go along well with this discussion has just come out: "Of Cabbages and Kings County: Agriculture and the Formation of Modern Brooklyn". The authors are Marc Linder & Lawrence S. Zacharias. The publisher is University of Iowa Press ISBN 0-87745-670-4.
It deals with the politics, real estate greed and sociology that went into turning Brooklyn from one of the largest vegetable farming centers into a urban branch of NYC. Should be an interesting read.]
Thanks for the tip, it does sound worthwhile. Amazon has it, BTW, and it's even given a ranking on their best-seller list.
Of course, the ranking is #414,177 :-)
James Howard Kunstler has published two books, The Geography Of Nowhere and Home From Nowhere, about the scourge of suburban sprawl and what can be done about it. I recommend 'em both.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not sure what time, I think it was around 3, there was a sick passenger at Atlantic Avenue. So the D's were rerouted to 4th Avenue Local, West End Local. I'm not sure about the Q's. I know that at least that 1 D reversed at Coney Island from West End to Seabeach.
It seems that improving and streamlining Urban infastructure is the soulution. Makng city life more desirable for Home and Business.
So my question is: What major project could take New York to the next level of effective and balanced use of its limited space and resources, much in the same way that the Subway and the Elevator took New York to a new level 100 years ago? Who has an idea that will transform the city into a more idealic version of what it is today?
I prefer to hear from the creative people and not so much the Poo Pooers.
The original models of construction of mass transportation in New York City were aimed at reducing the density of housing in the central city. People may be surprised to know that at one time Manhattan had a population of over two million--when there was no more room to put up tenaments, they put up new tenaments in the backyards of existing tenaments.
But their objective was to disperse this population--to lower the core density, while still enabling people to work in the city, which meant in term that the city's business dominance would be maintained.
So the horsecars and coaches made it possible for people to live further uptown, further than they could walk to work. The elevated took people further uptown still. The IRT began to disperse people into The Bronx, and the BRT spread people further out in Brooklyn.
So I think the answer to your question as it is posed is to abandon new subway construction (except for essential unfinished links and infrastructure repair) and follow historical precedent by building high speed regional rail--not to close in Long Island, Westchester or New Jersey, but to where the land is still cheap and available.
I'm not sure if I would or would not advocate this, but it follows the logic of the City's entire transportation history.
A good answer. Thanks. And along the lines of what I was driving at too!
Any other revolutionary ideas???
Lots! But I'm saving them up for my best-selling book, which should be around by the millennium!
I won't commit to which millennium. ;-)
[So I think the answer to your question as it is posed is to abandon new subway construction (except for essential unfinished links and infrastructure repair) and follow historical precedent by building high speed regional rail--not to close in Long Island, Westchester or New Jersey, but to where the land is still cheap and available.]
Build the high speed rail to where? You have to go way outside the city in most directions to find cheap and available land - eastern Suffolk County, northern Orange County, western New Jersey, even to parts of Pennsylvania. Most of those areas already seem to be developing even with the mediocre rail service that's available. I'm not opposed to better and faster commuter rail service, not by any means, but I don't quite see what it would accomplish in terms of the city's development.
It would direct commercial development to the City rather than to satellite employment areas, binding these areas more closely the City and vv.
It would also have these areas develop more around rail than road transportation.
To shift gears, though, the arguments about where and how to develop obscure a larger point: World population is growing and the additional people have to go somewhere. This issue seems to be ignored.
(World population growth)
What the anti-development crowd doesn't understand is that if incomes rise, you need more space for the same amout of people. The average house built has risen from 1,500 s.f. in 1970 to 2,500 s.f. today. NYC has added one million housing units since WWII, but very few people. The average office worker has 150 s.f. in 1960, vs. 300 s.f. today.
Same thing with transit. Forget growth. We need the 2nd Avenue Subway and other improvments to improve the quality of life.
What about High Speed to Staten Island? It seems that this would spark a boom of development in the Forgoten Borough and do wonders for New York Housing overall. People who are willing to live in Brooklyn, Queens and The Bronx would have a whole new and giant Borough to populate, (supply and demand) Richmond Real Estate would skyrocket, and the cost of real estate in all outer boroughs whould be more evenly distributed as there would be a whole new City option for people who can't afford to live in Manhattan.
Of course the political hurdles for this are insurmountable but remember I'm trying to avoid the negative and spectulate on real and dynamic ideas.
(Rail leads to more development in Staten Island)
Staten Islanders are fighting to keep development out. Since they have clout in the Giuliani Administration, they are getting their downzoning way. There isn't much vacant land left, and the zoning will not allow that much more development. Where it does, expect downzonings.
Note that by modern suburban standards, or even the standards of most cities, the population density of Staten Island is VERY HIGH. In South Richmond, the community wants a new R3X zoned mapped over the entire area. I believe it allows 2 family houses on 50 X 100 foot lots. That's as many as 17 units per acre. How many suburbs allow that? Or allow two-families?
Staten Island had just under 400,000 people in 1990. My guess is the borough tops out less than 500,000, spread over an area the size of Brooklyn. The density is not high enough for rapid transit without deep subsidies. SIRT covers less than 10 percent of its costs.
That's why I think an expanded system of express buses, on dedicated ROWS wherever possible (including lanes on the Verrazano and Gowanus and the current SIRT and abandoned North Shore Line) is the way to go, especially if fuel cell/electric buses replace the smoky diesels.
[Staten Islanders are fighting to keep development out. Since they have clout in the Giuliani Administration, they are getting their downzoning way. There isn't much vacant land left, and the zoning will not allow that much more development. Where it does, expect downzonings.]
Dunno, the southern part of Staten Island still seems to have quite a bit of vacant land available even with all the rapid development it's experiencing. Assuming zoning doesn't change, I'd say there's probably enough land for at least a few more years of continued development at the present pace. And that's not counting teardowns (replacement of existing houses with fancier new ones), which I believe is happening to some extent.
[The density is not high enough for rapid transit without deep subsidies. SIRT covers less than 10 percent of its costs. That's why I think an expanded system of express buses, on dedicated ROWS wherever possible (including lanes on the Verrazano and Gowanus and the current SIRT and abandoned North Shore Line) is the way to go, especially if fuel cell/electric buses replace the smoky diesels.]
I agree with you there.
When my friend and his wife moved out to SI, they looked at the southern end and decided against it, because the travel time (one to Manhattan, the other to Brooklyn) was just too long. That may be one reason why the southern end still has a semi-exurb look in a few areas (and if anyone ever talks about the hectic New York City life, take `em to Tottenville)
North Shore of Staten Island is in clear urban decay though, especially around the ferry terminal. Nicest areas in my opnion of Staten Island are in the vicinity of Eltingville, Staten Island Mall, and Great Kills.
Staten Island is more like Long Island than NYC, except for the northern part. Even had to wait awhile for a bus last time I went, just like Long Island. Next time I'll get the bus schedules before I go!
Much of the open land on the south shore of Staten Island is parkland, and is owned either by the city or the state. What other land there is has been designated protected wetlands. The big zoning arguement that is going on now has to do with Mt. Loretto, which i believe is owned by the archdiocese. That land is desperately wanted for development.
-HAnk
One of the ideas that has actually been implemented with some sucess has been the creation of a regional growth boundary in Portland, Oregon. Basically, they draw a line around the metropolitian area and say you can build all you want within the line, but don't even think of putting that new subdivision outside the line.
As I understand it, this has led to Portland having one of the nicest central business districts and highest standards of living of any medium-sized city. I'd be curious to hear from people who have a bit more knowledge or experience with the Portland example.
NYC and Chicago could each benefit from such a solution. Of course, it would never happen politically; at least in Illinois, the state politicians are dominated by suburban interests and developers.
If it were up to me, I'd demolish everything to the west of the Tri-State Tollway. :-)
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Good bye, Hoffman Estates. So long, Schaumburg! But demolish Elgin? I grew up in Elgin 100 years ago, when it was a separate town, and surrounded by dairy farms. I traveled to Chicago on the Chicago Aurora & Elgin interurban. It was all open country between Elgin and Wheaton, with the exception of Wayne, a flag stop. Now Elgin is on the outer perimeter of Chicago's sprawl. Get rid of suburban sprawl, but at least keep the original bedroom suburbs on the commuter rail lines.
Fair enough, Elgin can stay...
But Naperville must be destroyed!
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
"Naperville must be destroyed!"
Delenda Naperville est, Senator? (^:
Not to be picky, but isn't Naperville as old or even older than Chicago? Mind you, I have no objection to getting rid of all the "office campuses" along the I-88 corridor. I've got no problem with people living in the suburbs -- so long as they work in the Loop and commute to work on Metra. (^: Seriously, the suburbs weren't a real problem until they started building expressways and lining them with rambling office complexes.
Delenda Naperville est, Senator? (^:
OK, everybody ... if you waana continue this discussion, git yer togas on!
[Delenda Naperville est]
Isn't Delenda Naperville est more accurate? I had thought the original quotation was Cartago Delenda est.
[I grew up in Elgin 100 years ago]
Is it just me, or does everyone else think there's a typo?
No typo, just an exaggeration. Actually, I was born in Elgin the day after Germany marched into Poland and lived there until 1958, one year after the CA&E abandoned its passenger service, which occurred July 3, 1957. It's hard to believe the finest interuban on earth has been gone 42 years.
Sorry George, but the finest interurban on earth has been gone 36 years by my count.
"Route of the Electroliners"
I don't know Illinois geography but please spare Oak Brook Terrace, I have a lot of co-workers out there!
I'll give them time to move their offices to the Loop. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[One of the ideas that has actually been implemented with some sucess has been the creation of a regional growth boundary in Portland, Oregon. Basically, they draw a line around the metropolitian area and say you can build all you want within the line, but don't even think of putting that new subdivision outside the line.
As I understand it, this has led to Portland having one of the nicest central business districts and highest standards of living of any medium-sized city. I'd be curious to hear from people who have a bit more knowledge or experience with the Portland example.]
Portland's Urban Growth Boundary has been discussed in great, indeed excruciating detail on Usenet (principally on alt.planning.urban). As best I can tell, the UGB is not an impregnable barrier - some development does occur outside of it - but is rigid enough to have had the effect of making housing within Portland considerably less affordable than would otherwise be the case.
I just thought that I should report that the first CSX Blue and Yellow painted unit has appeared at Oak Point. A switcher numbered 1181 now resides at Oak Point. As always the usual batch of B23-7s were hanging around in CR Blue with CSX numbering.
CP SD40-2s could also be found enjoying their cold, but sunny day in the yard.
LIRR stuff - none to be found at Oak Point although I've had someone tell me a few more units (powerpacks presumably) have disappeared from the Morris Park facility in the week following the ERA excursion.
Thoughts Are Welcome As Always,
Stef
[ LIRR stuff - none to be found at Oak Point although I've had someone
tell me a few more units (powerpacks presumably) have disappeared from
the Morris Park facility in the week following the ERA excursion. ]
Also, a whole bunch of Parlor cars have been taken away from "death row" in front of Hillside, and been moved to Morris Park. This may be in preparation for the URHS parlor-car dinner train, or it may be first stop on the way out..
Two items of interest: 1) Diesel 79 was pushing a flat and two rider cars, RD323 and RD360 southbound on the 2/5 lines last night. At least for me it's an odd sight being that short work trains don't usually utilize 2 riders back to back.
2)They've done it again! For a third time another Corona Invasion of the mainline has taken place. Two sets came up - one 5 car set with an R33 single on the end, and a seven car set with another R33 single on the end. It's always refreshing to see something new and something different...
I'd still like to know what the deal is with the R36s. It sounds like they may be on the way over to the mainline to serve out their final years.
-Stef
10/06/99
Stef,
Did I read you right? Some Flushing cars along with a single unit was spotted on the Mailine? Which line was that running ?
Bill Newkirk
They weren't in passenger service, but the Corona Cars were spotted running lite on the 2/5 lines up to the 239th St Yard for some unknown reason. As of the time I wrote this message, no Corona Cars came south to head home. The previous 2 times, the Corona Sets would head home the night after they came up!!!
-Stef
Remember that the R-33 singles have trip levers on both sides, allowing them to journey over all divisions. Thus whenever a set of R-36s journeys from Corona to anywhere else on the IRT, an R33-WF must head the train on the IRT mainline.
Actually, it is while on the B Division (IND or BMT tracks) that the R-33 single has to be in front. Once back on the IRT, it could be disconnected, but since it was sent as part of the consist, I guess it makes more sense to leave it.
R-36 WF sets occasionally operate on the #6 line (mixed in with cars of "mainline Redbirds"), apart from their normal duties on the #7.
For those of you who were going to freeze your bottoms off, waiting thursday night for the R-142s to be delivered, I have great news. They ain't coming!!!!! My well placed source has informed me that the best Bombardier can do is now December 13th. This should give us an obvious nickname for the R-142s:
THE PHANTOMS
what about the Kawasaki R-142's, maybe they will come first? -Nick
You kinda get the feeling they'll get here just in time for the 180th St. yard to find out all that new electronic equipment has a Y2K bug.
If I don't get there before, I will be at E180th St. Shop on November 6th. Photos to follow.......
Does that mean our favorite DCE person will be going to East 180?
Nope!!! The Cleaner Roadeo will be held there on that date & hopefully, I'll have several employees competing.....
The Cleaner Roadeo? Is this new?
Not new, really. Probably been around for 6 years now. While the cleaners don't get to compete in the national APTA Roadeo, they do get to compete and win prizes. It's a fun Saturday for their families to.
I'm afraid to ask this, but here goes: what are the rules?
Why be afraid to ask? The cleaner roadeo consists of several events. There are written questions, practical skills tests and chemical and tool identification. Not quite the Car Repair Roadeo, the Train Operator Roadeo or the Bus Driver Roadeo but then again try making cleaning interesting. Prizes are real, though.
1st prize = 27" Sony
2nd Prize = Sony VCR
3rd Prize = 13" color TV
4th prize = 35 MM camera
These contests are very anti-union.
Thanks for the info!
Projected reliability theorem:
Probability of failure is directly porportional to the cost per car times the number of microprocessors.
Probably explains why many of the BMT Standards ran for 45+ years. Number of microprocessers: zero.
Plus they could come out of a crash with nothing more than a few scrapes and bruises.
Try explaining that to the computer types out there. They just don't get it. Technology for technology's sake is just wrong. Keep it simple, stupid, is the way to go.
OK, let's take the computers out of cars. Now we have vehicles with horrible emmisions, poor mileage, and no ABS. All of which have managed to greatly improve our quality of life.
I doubt that the problems with the 142s are the computers. I'm thinking it's most likely human errors, people who don't know that you tighten a screw clockwise.
-Hank
A computer is only as fast as the slowest person designing, ordering, programming, installing and tuning it. So if we can't get rid of thugs in New Car Engineering AND Joe Hoffman, Eric can refer to himself as Mr. R-46 again and another car builder will go out of business.
Nah, Bombardier still has their aircraft division. And those Ski Doos (Hey - everyone's doo'n it!!! *duck* :)
Though I thought it was funny (in a sad way) that they managed to derail not only the first R-142, but the first Acela too. What a concept for Amtrak - pre-derailed equipment!
In all fairness, the new Boston red line stuff they did is pretty nice, though it can't touch the blue line's Hawker-Siddely stuff in the all-important "tacky woodgrain vinyl wall covering" department. You thought the M-1s were bad - try the blue line someday - even the builder's plate is covered with it. (I wish I was kidding)
As far as computers go, I've heard E cams are nice, but that seems to be the exception. I don't understand why logic controllers are needed to work doors, when relays can do the job just fine. I *can* see the usefulness of optical / magnetic sensors, but neither require computers to work, though they may need an interface box. And, do you REALLY want to be on a subway running Windows 95?
As far as fuel injection on cars goes - I was under the impression that at least some of the older systems were really analog systems as opposed to digital ones. And last I heard, safety experts are now rethinking the need/usefulness of ABS, given that most people don't know how to use it (driver ed classes still teach "10 and 2" for steering, though with today's cars, it's not even needed, and in fact dangerous if you have airbags. It seems driver ed curriculums don't keep up with auto technology, or the times in general (my class saw a movie on how to save gas "because of the energy crissis, and gas is already $1.00 a gallon in some parts of the US".) But this is Subtalk, not CarTalk (great show, BTW).....
And, do you REALLY want to be on a subway running Windows 95?
The R-142s would be running Windows NT becausde it's "industrial strength" and since service pack 5 would be applied, NYC Transit would NEVER get the "blue screen of death" while the train is in operation, oh no ....
--Mark
Hmmm.... if subway cars were like operating systems.....
The Dosliner: This car is nothing more than a steel box on wheels. The roll signs are all black on white. The train leaves the terminal late because the T/O can't find where the reverse and brake handles go, and can't see them because there's no lights inside the train. Each car has one seat in it, unless it has Highpassenger installed, in which case it has 10, but most passengers can only sit in the stadard one seat.
The Windows Car: This subway car looks alot like an iSubwayCar, but breaks down 50 times as often, and is impossible to fix. When the MTA calls for tech support, the support person first tells them to open and close all the windows on it, and if that doesn't work, take the car entirely apart and put it back together again. Passengers love the Windows car, even though it's unreliable and uncomfortable. Crews hate it. The MTA doesn't like them either, but keeps buying them because the manufacturer keeps saying they can upgrade to a better one, even though every time they do, they have to replace all the tracks in the subway.
iSubwayCar: All of these look the same, but come in different color, red, green, blue, purple, instead of the tan every other subway car comes in, and each seat looks the same too. At every stop, the roll sign momentarily displays a smiling subway car on it, and beeps. To exit this car, you drag yourself to a trashcan in the front of the car, and it automatically spits you out the door. Passengers really like these cars, but they only run on 10% of the subway lines in the system. The manufacturer was on the verge of bankruptcy, but now can't even begin to fill the massive orders for iSubwayCar.
VAX/VMSubwaycar: An 'industrial strength' subway car, this one costs $10,000,000 per car, but is entirely graffitti proof. Even when loaded with 200 passengers per car, it still runs at the same speed as when empty, though they're not that fast. If they're equipped with Alpha motors, they are VERY fast, but nobody makes subway tracks they'll fit on. They almost never crash or break down, however, and when they do, the manufacturer comes and investigates it so it dosen't happen again. It's slightly differnt than UNIXliners, but many find it easier to operate after they get used to it, because the controller notches are labled in something more like english, such as "POWER/NOTCH=2/GO", or "POWER/BRAKE=MAX/STOP" Each time a passenger gets off, a slightly older clone of him stays on, until the conductor physically throws it off the train. If something goes wrong, the diagnostic codes are completely uninteligable.
UNIXliner: A very common car, but each ones looks and works different from the others. They run fine when empty, but gets very slow as they fill up. The controller on this has between 50 and 80 notches, most are labeled useful things like "rz", or "jfh", or "qw -nd | t". Some actually make the train move, others cause it to instantly burst into flames. This car is delivered as a big box of parts that has to be put together, but comes with no instructions as to HOW to do that. A free version, the LinuxLiner, exists, and is used by systems that can't afford a UNIXliner. It's design is the result of maintenance personal working on it with their free time, and as a result, it outperforms most other subway cars, and if it breaks, a fix is available for download in 5 hours.
The AmigaBird: There are only 10 T/Os that drive these, but they never shut up about how great they are and why ALL subway cars should be these things, even though the manufacturer went under years ago. Early ones were unreliable, but got a repuation for having features that other subway cars still don't have. Despite being so great, these cars are only able to roll around the yards.
BeCar: This subway car is still being developed. It was origionally supposed to be a better type of iSubwayCar, but the company designing it has decided to modify it to run on Windows Car tracks. It's major feature is it can have as many traction motors as you want on it, and can run all of them at full power. Despite the fact it rides better and goes faster, when it comes into the station, nobody gets onto it.
Anyone care add some of the more obscure ones? :)
How about the Commodore PET car? Looks like a wooden IRT el car, and when people get on it, they ask the conductor "Does this stop at Chatham Square"?
Funny Phil! I like the wittiness!
The reason for computerized doors and other systems that were relay dependent is multifold.
By using fiberoptic between controllers at each door it saves on extensive wiring. By having a central proccesing unit to oversee the individual operators it makes trouble shooting easier. And micro processer controls although expensive to purchase are cheaper and easier to maintain. Welcome to modern transportation. Transit has long lagged far behind other industries in new technology. Here's another one of those first tenative steps. I worked with this stuff on Comet IV coaches at NJT. It's not that bad at all.
The TandyCar-Really popular in the early days of operation, but had no doors, windows, seats, signs, or motors. The only way to move the car was to put a cassette tape in a work locomotive.
The Apple II car-Extremely popular, until the Windows car came along. Had several different models, such as the IIe, IIc, II+, IIc+, and IIgs, all of varying sizes, seat, motor, and window arrangements. Freindly people loved them, as they would sit together in groups and trade seats and destination signs. Lots of spare parts were available, and you could even make them private cars if you liked.
The CoCo car-Similar to the Tandy Car, but with doors, windows, and seats. Still needed the work locomotive.
The Hewlett-Packard car- Can go really fast, but can't stop worth a damn. Some of them can only stop, and never go. Other only go if you prod them.
-Hank
The COBOL car -- wicker seats, manual operating end doors and nobody under the age of 55 knows how to run one.
Why is it great that they aren't coming? The faster they come, the faster that the R-33 singles are thrown to the scrap heap.
The R33 singles aren't going anywhere unless all redbirds are removed from the Flushing line. They're needed for those 11 car trains
When the R-142s come along, the R-33s will be the first cars out, it doesn't matter whether it's R-62s or R-142s that will populate the 7.
But the R142's are scheduled to first replace the redbirds on the 2 and 5 lines. The R33's will be needed as long as R3336 WF cars remain on the Flushing line, which will be some time. Unless they move to 10 car trains on the 7 line ...
rumored to be going to the Flushing line to replace redbirds was R62a's from the 6 line, 2-5 car linked sets with single R62A to make an 11 car consist.
I knew those R33 single units would be around for some time to come.
Sometime in the future, I would like to see a B division Fantrip in either the fall or spring with an all single fan car consist. Yes, B division. Yes, they can run there.
How about the M line?
I second that notion, Bill!!! These are the only IRT cars that are truly capable of running on the B Division. Fans only? Perhaps this is a trip that needs to be run in the cooler of the months of the year:)
Anyway there was an R33 single fan trip way back in the 1970s, and it has been many years since then.
-Stef
Say, that wasn't the train featured in the 1993 calendar, was it?
No. The picture in the 1993 Calendar was from the Pelham Line at Middletown Rd (Bronx). Those were R36s.
-Stef
Thanks for the clarification. The caption says they looked out of place or lost.
If they can run on both divisions without any modifications, then I guess they will be kept for work or money trains ...
Or they'll just sit in the yard for the purpose of hauling the 7 cars elsewhere (impossible with R-142) unless a few R-62s get dual tripcocks.
THey can always use the 127s, or any other work motor. All work motors have dual trip-cocks.
-Hank
They don't have enough R-127/R-134s to cover all the electric work service requirments. The pickups at 239 Street run R-33 cars and the 207 Street pickup ran a couple of R-38s. The revenue collectors use the R-21/R-22 cars. Don't even ask about the crap on the signal dolly. What exactly is the problems with these R-127s? Do they have the same SCM controllers that other GE cars have or is it that they are miscellaneous cars with no budget?
You can discard the R-33s, bring R-62s to the 7, transfer the good Redbirds from the 7 to another line (like the 4 or 6) in exchange for the R-62s and add a few of the cars from the 2 and 5 that are displaced by the R-142.
Down here in SEPTA territory I'm looking forward to seeing those R-142 cars mayself. This sure does have the same ring to it as SEPTA had with there dealings with Ad-Tranz on the delivery of the M-4 cars. We all know how long overdo that order was. Hope you don't have to wait to long. Good luck guys.
That means there will be more work for the Bondo Squad on those never-say-die Redbirds. I have a feeling they will be needed for some time to come.
And I would be happy to have the contract which sells the red paint to the TA!
10/09/99
Maybe it's the same company that sold the TA all that dark green paint seen on the overhauled R-10's. Now the TA is using the same color to paint some stations and "EL" structures.
Bill Newkirk
I thought those few "redbirds" painted that greeen in the 80's looked better than the red currently used today.
I still want to know who sold the TA all that yellow/green and gray paint they used on the interiors of the R-7 through R-36 cars back in the 1970s? That color combination redefined the term "ugly."
I remember the doors on the R40/42 being bright orange. Blended nicely with the aquamarine seats ...
Orange and tan was the second color combo of the 70s. Supposedly, the paint was more graffiti-proof. At least it was better looking to the eye than the other was, though I always preferred the original light blue/dark blue interiors the Redbirds (and R-36 Bluebirds) had.
Chances are some distributor was looking to get rid of those colors and unloaded all that paint to the TA for peanuts.
Is there an IRC (Internet Relay Chat) dedicated to railfan issues, particularly urban rapid transit systems?
If not, I'd be more than happy to start such a channel on Dalnet. IRC allows people to chat in real-time and is very easy to use. I'm fairly active with an amputee-related channel on EFnet, and have developed a number of close friendships there. A lot of us even get together once or twice a year.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I was riding a northbound Q yesterday. At 7th Ave the doors opened before the train had completely stopped. We drifted slowly for a good three seconds, covering maybe 15 feet, before a brake application stopped us. Nobody was trying to enter or exit the last car, but I don't know how people reacted further up.
Funny, I didn't think it's possible to open the doors while the train is moving.
Bill
This happened as the train was comming in to the station?
As the train came to a stop the doors opened but it
haddn't completely stopped yet?
The doors can be opened at any time. Regardless of the
train's motion. Any time the key is inserted and the OPEN
button is pushed.
On the IRT especially, the conductors are always trying to
save time, and frequently, they have the key inserted and turned before the train stops. The timing of it has to be perfect so that just as the train stops the doors pop. Now this is a violation of the operating rules, but the TA looks the other way on it until something goes wrong.
Perhaps this is what you saw, and the conductor made an error it timing? Or perhaps the doors had an electrical problem. It happened to me on the Sea Beach line last year. I had a train of R-68's open on the off side as the train was exiting 8th Av. All by itself!
Maybe it's time for an exorcism...
Postwar cars have interlocks which prevent the train from being started up with the doors open, but I'm not sure if the same holds true if the train is already moving. The R-1/9s, for instance, could run with the doors open; I saw an OOS train do precisely that once at 59th St. Columbus Circle, and was able to work the doors on 1689 at Shore Line back in 1980 as it rolled along the main line. Now THAT was fun! While I was opening and closing the doors, someone else was playing with the buzzer. Eddie Sarkauskas was going nuts. He was in the cab, hollering at the guy at the buzzer to knock it off.
Well at least you know you can open the doors on 1689 while the car is in movement. But really Steve B, I don't think that was a wise thing to do. It's a safety issue I'm concerned about. As for the buzzer guy, well I'd get annoyed too. For that I would have just locked the cab door. It's ok to have fun, just don't over do it.
-Stef
I should have pointed out a few more things about that memorable day in August 1980.
That run on 1689 occurred after hours. There were maybe three or four of us on board. Eddie wasn't really pissed with the buzzer going off; he would just say "Hey!" now and then. When we got to the end of the line at Short Beach, one of us had to hold the rope attached to the trolley pole after Eddie swung it around, and I ended up doing the honors. The return ride was much quieter, IIRC, since Eddie was now at the same end of the car which had the active conductor's station.
One other humorous event occurred: I bought one of the IND sign boxes on sale at the sign shop they had back then, and drove around to Farm River Rd. then down to the shop. Eddie had walked over in the meantime and watched as I loaded the box into my car. When someone asked what was going on, Eddie replied, "He's building a subway car at home." I could only wish... He also noticed a bumper sticker I had at the time which proclaimed, "Lithuanians are coming!" and shook his head (he's a fellow Lithuanian, but he doesn't speak it and I do). It referred to a folk dance festival which had taken place in Chicago the previous month.
I learned an awful lot from Eddie about the subway, especially contract numbers, during the couple of times I saw him then. I haven't seen him since; I doubt if he remembers me.
Alright then, I understand. I don't know how often Eddie comes, these days. Branford does have someone to operate 1689, even if he's not around.
-Stef
I remember seeing a fellow there about 4-5 years later who looked a lot like Eddie. I was going to ask him if by chance he remembered me, but when he spoke, it didn't sound at all like Eddie.
I remember one other humorous incident with him. It happened right after I got done loading that IND sign box. I was about to say something to Eddie when he turned and said, "Ite missa est". Being a Catholic who still remembers the all-Latin Mass, I knew what it meant.
OK, for those of us whose Hebrew is better than our Latin, please translate!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, here goes. "Ite, missa est" means "Go, the Mass is ended". This was one of the first parts of the Catholic liturgy to be said in English (or vernacular, if you will) when the phaseout of Latin began in the mid-60s. Later on, it was changed to what the celebrant now says: "The Mass is ended. Go in peace." (The celebrant is whoever is celebrating Mass: priest, monsignor, bishop, cardinal, or pope.)
Just as our rabbi always ends the service with Shabbat shalom - literally, Sabbath peace, used as both a welcome and a farewell greeting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All by itself? Sounds like a maintenance problem. Steve, how about an expert opinion?
Not a maintenance problem from where I sit. There are interlocks to prevent the train from taking power with the doors open but not the reverse. I believe that at one time, the R-46 had a "zero-speed" relay which prevented such an occurrence but that was removed with the ATO. If the doors opened before the train came to a full stop, the only one to blame is the Conductor.
They have TSSs out there checking to see if the conductors have their key in the MDC panel before the train stops. There was one at Van Wyck Blvd last week.
The "new tech" trains have an interlock with the speed sensor to
prevent opening doors while the train is in motion. I wonder if
you can release the brakes without indication?--that's a separate
and common problem where the t/o releases to save time and rolls
with the doors still open.
So Eric had a D-O-E? I thought the Vapor mods were supposed to
fix all that? I never got the paperwork on those mods..were any
trainlines modified, or was it all in the MDC?
It wasn't mechanical. A vandal used a stolen MDC key from the last car of the consist. I identified him from mugshot books. Darius McCollum. This is the same weirdo who stole buses from the Jackie Gleason depot, and has been arrested for trying to sign on the payroll in a motorman's uniform.
When I got to the back of the train after the DOE, I saw him in a uniform, and remembered him from Stillwell. I had figured him for a lunch relief clerk. I had asked him to stay and help me discharge at the next stop. He actually helped me shepherd the few passengers we had at that hour into the front zone. Then he disappeared.
Wacko!
Haha! Now that's hysterical. You always manage to get involved
in the strangest of situations. Tell the guy to file for the t/o
exam!
And that is why you should not lean against doors, because they can open at any time. That couple making out on the F leaning into the doors would've found themsleves in a subway tunnel and the rats would be keeping them company if they "fell out" of the train.
People commonly lean against train doors, not aware that it is dangerous.
Alot of times on a grade if the brakes are not kept applied, the train will still roll, forwards or backwards, depending on the direction of the grade.
It seems like the LIRR electric trains rollback sometimes when at a stop.
why wouldn't be possible for the trains doors to be be open and the train still moving? The train may be moving however the interlocks have removed power from the traction motors also resulting in lose of t/o and c/r indication the AIR brakes are the ones stopping the train... sounds like the Coonductor on such train had their key in the MDC and popped the doors way too soon
Had the train operator stopped the train with the back portion of the train out of the station seeing the indication lost the posibility of a rider walking off the train on to the roadbed thinking the train was properly stopped....
10/07/99
Changing the locale of the subject from NYC to Philly,didin't those classic "Almond Joys" doors open before the train came to a dead stop?
Bill Newkirk
Hi there,
I am in the planing stages of attempting to build an HO scale model of the IRT #1’s 242nd St. terminal. Ok, now that you’ve stopped laughing…..I only make it back to NY 3, maybe 4 times a year….let a lone having any free time to spend countless hours there with a camera and tape measure (which I’ll probably have to do anyway). Does anyone know if there exists any plans, blueprints, or any other type of documentation that will help me with the measurements? Any information would be greatly appreciated!
I currently do have 3 HO scale R21 cars from Image Replicas, which are quite nice. Now I want the tracks and station to go with it!
Ted, why don't you pose your question on New York subway modeling on Model Sub Talk at www.monmouth.com/. Go back to the home page, and go to Transfer Station and proceed from there.
I probably will do that...but I usually reserve my "modeling" questions for them, and actual NYC subway stuff for this board. The guys on Model SubTalk are great, but don't put a lot of stress on "actual" stations...they just represent a NYC style elevated station. I guess I'm the crazy one by trying to make my 242nd street station look as close as I can to the real thing.
One thing you should be aware of is that the two side platforms are shorter by about two car lengths than the center platform which can hold a ten car train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
An article in today's issue of Salon (www.salon.com) had a nasty remark about the Transit Authority and its workers. The author, a college professor in Iowa, wrote the following in describing his frustration in trying to get an appointment at a hospital orthpedic clinic for back pain:
"Where does the hospital get these people? The reject pile of token-takers at the New York City Transit Authority? The motto seems to be, "How can't we help you?""
How about a boycott of SALON Magazine? Just a thought.
(Boycot Salon magazine).
Somehow I don't think a 100 percent boycot by transit workers and readers would cost Salon magazine too much business.
Or at least the answers I was looking for :)
Flatbottoms - The older New Haven EP-3s, Though Harry says garbage trains are called this too.
Rat's - the PRR B-1, B-2, and BB-3 switchers
BiPolars - Milwaukee's gearless passenger motors (Not sure what series)
Virginians - The E33 - the New haven gave them this name I think.
Big Blows - The Union Pacific turbine units.
Sweedish Meatballs - The AEM-7, I think Metro-North claims reasponsibility for this in a pamphlet somewhere.
Electroliners - The Chicago North Shore equipment. Way cool
Arrows - NJT's MUs Way fast, and features the coolest looking pantographs in the northeast.
Blueliners - Ex Reading MUs
U-boats - Any of the GE U series locomotives.
10/07/99
Was any EMD nicknames mentioned?
GP-38,40's etc. - "GEEPS"
F-7,9's etc. - "Covered wagons" - "Cab units"
BACK TO THE SUBWAY !
BMT 67' footers - "AB's" "Standards" "BMT Steels"
BRT EL cars - "gate cars" - "BU's" (for Brooklyn Union elevated)
IRT EL steam loco's - "Forneys" or was that the manufacturers name ?
>Was any EMD nicknames mentioned?
Given my non-love for EMD, the only one I mentioned were the two not so kind ones for the FL-9!
I don't hate EMD cause they're GM (well, actually...), but mostly cause they're dull I always liked the more obscure / rare things in life (and the classics, hence the GG-1). Everyone likes EMD. But if everyone likes EMD, who's going to be around to like Baldwins and Fairbanks-Morse diesels? :) (ahhhhhh the evil emoticon!!!)
Hey - it just dawned on me - everyone says they're gonna be there - but Branford's a big place - have we agreed on a common meeting mpoint, or are we working on the bump into each other method? I'm assuming there's gonna be a lot of non subtalkers there too :)
Any sugestions?
I am sure I'll bump into Subfans any time the R17 is running. I'm sure Jeff H will be on the LoV too >G<....
Heck when they run the PCC I don't think there will be room for anyone but SubTalkers!1
I know Branford is a lot closer to NYC, which is where most SubTalkers will go. And as a member there, I hope you WILL go and support the Museum! But I'll be at Seashore in Kennebunkport tomorrow serving as an Instructor and pilot for any members or visitors who wish to run a trolley. So if any of you find your way to Maine, come over and say hello.
Todd & friends also have some unique NYC equip. up their, e.g. UMTA "SOAC" demo R-44 (see June Subway calendar). It is definitely on my short list of places to visit, but not this weekend.
Mr t__:^)
Not to mention #4137. Unfortunetly, I simply have no means of getting up there this weekend (Harley's at home - I'm not crazy enough to leave that thing on this campus unattended!). I'm still trying to figure out how I can get down to New Haven. Not to mention a nice 5 page paper due monday, and plenty of labs (gear design, shaft design...) I might be able to make it down though, I'm not sure.
Take the train down. Maybe Thurston will pick you up from
the station in New Haven?
I look forward to seeing everyone up at the Museum that rules the world!!! As I said previously, I'll be there tomorrow, and possibly Sunday. You'll know who I am as I'll be hanging out of the R17 and will be wearing a black hat with the name "Kangol" on it.
Cheers For a Great Weekend,
Stef
-Stef
You must beat the current validated record and not set a new which is of higher time. That's the rules.
I really enjoyed the one-hour film about the NYC Subways that was shown the other day. I really get an appreciation for the job thats done by the operators, conductors, etc. The one scene showed an already "packed like sardines" train trying to squeeze a few more from a platform that was overcrowded . What a sight! No wonder people get mad at the system. There isn't much more you can do because the headways are very close at rush hour anyway. We'd have trains overunning each other, although I know signaling makes this impossible. The history was interesting also, and they always bring up the "Malbone St. Crash".
Chuck Greene
According to the MTA's Web Page service notices, there are no transfers from the 2/3 to the A/C at Fulton St until March 2000; it suggests transfers at the now-reopened Park Place/Chambers St station. This info is on the Service Notices for both the A/C and the 2/3.
It also indicates that there are no transfers between the 2/3 and the 4/5 until March 2000; it suggests transfers at Boro Hall. This info is on the 4/5 page, but not the 2/3 page.
It says nothing about transfers from the 2/3 to the J/M/Z, or from the J/M/Z to any other lines. So, could you transfer 'the long way'? Not remember ing what the layout of the station is, are there separate passageways to the 2/3 at Fulton? Do you need to use a platform to make a transfer between any of these lines?
-Hank
There is only one connection between the 2/3 platform and the rest of the Fulton St./B'way-Nassau complex. If that passageway is closed, then the 2/3 is isolated from the rest of the complex, including the J/M/Z.
The Fulton St. station is actually split into two halves. The western half contains the 4/5 platforms and the northbound J/M/Z. The eastern half contains the 2/3 platform and the southbound J/M/Z. The only connection between the two halves is the A/C Broadway-Nassau St. station platform, which lies at the lowest level. I nominated this station for the "most confusing" when we had that thread not long ago.
Are there seperate passages from the 2/3 to the north and south J/M/Z? If so, is there another passage from the J/M/Z to the other affected lines?
-Hank
From the 2/3 mezzanine you go down to the A/C Platform and then back up for the J/M/Z- One stairway for Broad Street and Bay Parkway and another stairway for Metropolitan, Jamaica Center and the Lexington.
From the 2/3 Mezz there are exits to the street. Likewise from the 4/5 mezz there are exits to the street. The J/M/Z Platform closest to the street level also has an exit to the street.
I did check the G.O. List and there was no item about no transfer from the A/C to or from the 2/3
I have always thought that the purpose of the Fulton St. mega transfer was to provide the following:
4/5 and A/C, J/M/Z/ and A/C, J/M/Z and 2/3, 2/3 and 4/5 (only for people going from Chelsea/Far West Village to Stuyvesant Town or thereabouts).
For 4/5 and J/M/Z, people normally use Bklyn Br.
For 2/3 and A/C, people normally use Park Place/Chambers.
For 2/3 and 4/5, most people would use Nevins St. in Brooklyn or would take the 42 St. shuttle or some other way to get across town.
In other words, half the possible connections are there but not convenient anyway, but to get the half that are useful you need a mega-connection.
Okay, I'm too lazy to pull out my CFR tonight but here's a question that occurred to me this afternoon at Penn. Station. Every AMTRAK train passing through Penn Station has its bell ringing while in motion. Same for NJ transit whether a loco or MU is at the head end. LIRR trains with Locos do it too but not the M-1s or the M-3s. Is it required or is the LIRR somehow exempt?
I'm guessing the LIRR is exempt. That and their MUs don't have bells. Never did, nor did the MP-54s. Can't ring a nonexistant bell. Supposedly they could wig wag their headlights and flash them too, but that's another ledgendary feature that was disconnected early on. I'm under the impression there's LOTS of things they had that was disabled on them. LIRR trains with locos in Penn? AFIK, there's only one - has this (finally) changed? :)
BTW - I thought Arrows had bells, but I never recall hearing them recently (but as a kid, yes)
All NJT equipment have bells and ditch lights....including Arrows MUs and Comet cab cars. They use them at every station stop. BTW does anyone know if MNCRR MUs have bells or not...i don't recall them have any.
LIRR MU's don't have bells but have ditch lights, they were modified to have ditch lights as per FRA mandate. The modification was to add two lights over the storm door and let the normal orginal lights be the "ditch lights".
Amtrak always rang their bells thourgh the station through tunnels as well. I have tapes of cab rides on AEM7, FL9 and Turbo cars all rang their bells through tunnels and stations.
Arrow III MU cars do NOT have bells. MU equipment is exempt from that. I do not know why. I can try and find out in my CFR.
10/08/99
How about when the LIRR dual mode (DM-30) engines enter service in the future. Will the bells be ringing?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, but this doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon. I still remember reading about "direct service from Glen Cove in 1998". Anyway, the LIRR seems to be quiet on the issue - I know they've been testing, testing, testing, testing. Are these thing white elephants, or are they actually going to go into service? For that matter - what's so hard about dual modes anyway?
10/09/99
Phil,
Maybe they're too high tech and sophisticated for themselves !
Bill Newkirk
According to "The Chief," the civil service newspaper, the City gave in and agreed to allow DC37 members to buy their own Metrocards, but on a pre-tax basis. The union didn't agree to drug testing, but the city will do it anyway. The TransitChek should be available some time next year, they say. (Workers at NYC--EDC, who do not have the benefit of a union and therefore do not have to negotiate, have had TransitChek for some time).
The city did not agree to subsidize the Metrocard, but that issue could be revisited during the "pay" negotiations for the next contract. I'll settle for the city picking up 1/3 of the cost of a monthly Metrocard -- and charging those with on-street parking passes two-thirds the cost of a monthly Metrocard.
TransitChek version of the MetroCard is very popular on our routes. We also get folks who mail us the paper TransitChek to buy our $30 value or $120 Unlim Express MCs.
Mr t__:^)
I'm posting this to let all my SubTalk friends know that tomorrow I am leaving for my annual trip to Virginia to visit the folks. I should be back late on the afternoon of Sunday, October 17th. This Monday and Tuesday I will complete my photo shoot of the DC Metro (which I began on August 27-28, 1998 and never finished). I am going to try and see where the new construction in Southeast is as well, particularly the Naylor Road and Southern Avenue stations. Perhaps I'll get lucky and get a sneak peek.
Anyway, I may pop into the Handley Library in Winchester sometime during the week to say "hi". I'm probably going to get in two or three rounds of golf at Carper's Valley GC (Par 70, 6,165 yards from the white tees).
Expect to see the Metro photos sometime around the 20th to the 25th of this month, depending on how many and how fast I can get them scanned.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
Welcome to the DC area again. I drove past those Green Line stations today and they are moving right along. The Branch Ave station looks nearly complete including the Bus stop/layover and Kiss N Ride. I was just thinking that I need a trip to NYC to see my folks and to get another dose of the NYCT system. Hope you enjoy your trip and railfanning on WMATA Metrorail.
Wayne
Bon voyage! When you get back, let me know (privately, if you wish) where we'll be meeting on the 27th and at what time. FYI, I will be staying in Manhattan near the Village. Looking forward to meeting you!
You are never on vacation from Subtalk. Use the computer at library or use internet time on a friends computer.
Right you are, Mr. TC! I visited SubTalk while on vacation in Thailand earlier this year. I was able to connect to the 'net with my laptop; no power or phone line converters needed!
By the way, Bangkok will have a brand-new, two-line, elevated rapid transit system opening in early December. I have some photos that have been recently sent by a friend, and I'll scan them for inclusion on the site.
Now available at select supermarkets are TransitChex, featuring a different subway car in every bite! Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs, BMT A-B units, and R-9s are made of 100% oat and wheat bran. It's all part of a nutrious breakfast for the railfan on the go from the folks who brought you Wheat Chex and Rice Chex.
And a free MTA patch in every box! (while supplies last).
(Another demented post -- as you can see it's getting late...)
Doug aka BMTman
Hey - might be just the ticket to get my younger son to appreciate subway cars (he eats enough Corn Chex to keep Nebraska solvent)!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today i have a hard time putting my subway pictures into my page. Any way i added more subway pictures today & go check my Meaney Subway page & also i add new pictures in my mainpage. More Subway Pictures will add during this week.
Peace Out
Meaney
I must say 6452 looks pretty sharp in that photo.
I hate to nitpick, but 1575 at the museum remains an R-7A from a mechanical and electrical standpoint. It only looks like an R-10. That's where the similarity ends.
What could Elvis Presley possibly have to do with the LIRR? Find out at Forgotten NY at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Elvis/elvis.html
He might still be riding the LIRR!
He might be CREWING the LIRR!
He played the Brooklyn Paramount, I think in '62 (?)(now the site of Long Island University) across from the immortal Juniors!
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks--I'll fix that entry.
Since five R62s are likely to be going to the scrap heap unless something drastic happens...
If it does not involve too much fiddling, perhaps we can cannibalize the usable parts from the six R62/R62As currently OOS (1909, 1435, 1436, 1437, 1439 and 1440) and resurrect 1909 using the least damaged of the R62 cars (perhaps #1436?) and cannibalize the usable parts from 1909, 1435, 1437, 1439 and 1440 and rebuild it into R62A specifications are renumber this car into #1909.
This will extend the life on an R62 servicing as an R62A rather than seeing it go to waste....
P.S. Is #1438 an "A" car or a "B" car???? (remember that the R62 has one mismatched consist of 1431-1432-1433-1434-1438). If #1431 is one of the two A cars, and if #1438 is not the 2nd A car, then what number is that 2nd A car?
Nick
R62 #1438 is considered to be an "A" car. It is the leading motor on one half that consist, with 1431 on the other end.
-Stef
Why don't they renumber from #1438 to #1435???
Peace Out
Meaney
Good question! They probably should do that and scrap 1435 under the number 1438. It keeps the numbers consistent. However, for the record books, 1435 was wrecked and has gone beyond the point of return.
-Stef
R110B 3007, -8, -9...If these cars don't get the parts that they were cannibalized for...This would be a total waste.
R29 8706...Any recent sightings of this car? Wrecked cars list claim that this car was damaged in a derailment in 1996.
R46 5486,-7,-8,-9 Cannibalized for parts....any recent sightings of this set?
R68 2576,-7 and -8....Anyone want to bet that they might run on the Franklin Shuttle until their sister (you what # it is) is repaired?
R44 5284 and 5285...What are they paired with now, since the loss of their siblings (5282 and 5283)????
Nick
R44 5284 and 5285. since the loss of their siblings have been spotted on track 58 of CI yard. They have regular daily appointments with a grief counseller, who feels their pain.
R29 8706 is on the road. According to an Electric Railroaders Association Bulletin, 8706 was the 8th car in a 20 car yard move that derailed over the switch at 239th St Yard. It was a minor mishap, otherwise he wouldn't be on the road. There was no noticeable damage whatsoever, and it didn't even make the news.
-Stef
The Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks are currently closed for
reconstruction until 2003, suspending Broadway Express service until
further notice. Is it possible that they can run the N express on
Broadway Weekdays 6am-9pm like in Brooklyn? They can run it express
from 57th Street-7th Avenue to Canal Street, then continue it via
the Montague Street Tunnel. Because when the Manhattan Bridge was
completely closed to all subway traffic, the Q was rerouted through
the Montague Street Tunnel via the N and R lines to 57th Street-7th
Avenue. There, it resumed it's normal route through the 63rd Street
Tunnel to 21st Street-Queensbridge, and it ran express from Canal
Street to 57th Street-7th Avenue. So why not making the N express
on Broadway weekdays, when it's express in Brooklyn?
James Li
I assume the reason they don't run the N express in Manhattan is to provide adequate (ha!) service to the local stations. Because the N would still have to squeeze back into the Montague tunnel with the R to get to Brooklyn, they can't run any more Rs than they already do; so taking the N off the local track would mean trains arriving half as often as they do now at Prince, 8th, et. al., which isn't very often in the first place.
2003? I heard the H tracks would reopen in 2001, with the A/B tracks then closed until 2003. The H tracks are in -- we're just waiting for that side of the bridge to be painted (admitedly a big job with lead et. all).
I can't wait!
When the tracks do open, what is the service plan? Run N and Q express trains over the bridge and then up Broadway, as before? Do you then run two D and B trains, one in Manhattan/Bronx, one in Brooklyn?
Really? The shifting of service to the other side of the bridge is being held up for painting?
Maybe if they hired some of the guys directly and promised 'em an extra six-pack for every good day's work, we could get it done by the end of this year.
When is the last time that an N train operated over the Manhattan Bridge "H" tracks? Does anyone have the date? Probably Redbird does.
I think it was September 30, 1990. It ran for one day then stopped. I rode it that day. I was on a R-68. Yes, I could still remember the battery on the train going nuts.
Thanks for the date. What do you mean about "the battery going nuts"?
Sort of like going wheeeeeeeeeeeee in a slow up and down pitch for a looooooooong time.
Apart from that one-day failed experiment, I think the N has been operating via the Montague St. tunnel since sometime in 1988. If they are on schedule and reopen the closed bridge tracks in 2001, it will have been 13 years that there was no regular N service over the bridge. That is equal to the length of time (1954 to 1967) that the D train, rather than the F, provided service through the Rutgers St. tunnel. Only no one called that a "temporary" service pattern.
Actually, only 11 years, since there was regular N express service over the Manhattan Bridge for 4 months in late '90. Still way too long ...
(13 years with no N service).
Maybe if the traffic and transit reports said "Again today riders on the southern rim of Brooklyn face to 5 to 10 minute delays due to the Manhattan Bridge problem," instead of "all trains and buses running normally," people would think differently. While they're add it, they should say "there are again severe crowding and delays on the Lexington Avenue line due to the lack of a 2nd Avenue Subway."
Shades of Car 54 Where Are You.
It ran from September 30th to Dec 28th, 1990. On that date it was announced that the N would temporarily have to return to the tunnel tracks while an emergency repair to fix some faulty stringers was done. 9 years later, we're still waiting ...
I hated the way it was set up. With only R service for local stations the people along Broadway lost nearly 1/2 of their service. Then they had the B, N AND M run express from Pacific to 36th, which really cramped up the express tracks.
I agree. I don't know why they made the M express on 4th Avenue. I
would make it local in Brooklyn, and the N local whenever the M was
not running in Brooklyn.
That's how it works now.
This is Douglaston Parkway
The next and last stop on this 7 train will be Little Neck Parkway.
Well,
One idea would be to keep the N and R as is, and instead run the yellow Q as the Broadway express from 57th Street or even 21st Street.
For Sixth Avenue, that Q would be replaced with the V.
LEAVE EVERYTHING AS IS and then add another line to Broadway! It'll be too confusing for the Brighton Express riders. Base another line from 4th Avenue or from West End and run it on the bridge.
3 trains through the MB north side or the Montague Tunnels is too much.
"3 trains through the MB north side or the Montague Tunnels is too much."
Not really. The M line is schedule to come 8 minutes because of very little ridership. The same with the the R line schedule for 6.5 minutes. The real problems lies with the N line schedule. It should be schedule to run every at least 3/4 minutes. Not is current time schedule of 6.5 minutes. That's ridiculous!
The R and N line have small schedules because of their congestion in the tunnel. If they didn't have share with the M, then they would have more service.
And as long as the N doesn't run over the bridge, it has to alternate with the R to keep the service balanced.
"For Sixth Avenue, that Q would be replaced with the V."
No subway steve that too confusing. Replace it with the H.
A C E or B D F and H being 8 letter of the alphabet.
H to 21st Street Queens Bridge and Rockaway Park.
I sometimes question the wisdom of the
Q as it is now.
Far be it from me to question authority, but why have it
on 6th at all(unless it's really needed, which I'm sure it
is-otherwise it wouldn't be running).
You have 3 northern terminals for any train coming off of
6th. You have three essential services(B,D,F) on 6th, why
the third express(I just say this because I'd like the Q
back on Broadway, but that's my opinion).
I don't disagree with the Q on broadway, but the use of V on the 6th Avenue Line. H just sounds better.
And, the overwhelming amount of lines going to coney island in oppose to the rockaway area.
The TA will never give up OPTO on the Rockaway Park line.
What's OPTO?
OPTO is One Person Train Operation. The Motorman operates the train and open closes the doors.
The H is BLUE!!!!!!
Couldn't it be made orange? Or, make all lines running on fulton blue?
Couldn't it be made orange? Or, make all lines running on fulton blue?
That should solve the problem.
That means the fleet of trains involved would need a whole new set of roll signs.
They are blue. Blue is the color of the 8th Ave. trunk line, and both the A and C lines are 8th Ave. lines. The H technically isn't an 8th Ave. route per se, since it never enters Manhattan, but it also became blue for the sake of uniformity.
I think the plan is to run the Brighton and West End lines over the Bridge, and turn them around at 57th St. The B and D would terminate at 34th St. A shuttle would run from W. 4th St to Grand Street. Perhaps they could outfit surplus R30s with cots for shuttle service, for the use of future residents.
This has been discussed before. It doesn't make sense to have the N run express in Manhattan the way things are now because it would have to switch tracks twice, which would increase the potential for delays and make any time savings moot. In order for Broadway express service to be useful, it should either terminate at 57th St. or continue on to 21st-Queensbridge. Once the bridge tracks reopen, the problem will take care of itself.
As I've said once before, the schedule as written should provide evenly spaced service throughout the route. If you seperate the N & R from each other for that relatively short run from Canal to 57, they initially would be evenly spaced, but when they come back together after the express run, they will no longer be evenly spaced apart. Remember, it's a paper railroad!
Does anyone know whether any part of the public transit infrastructure of San Francisco (MUNI or BART), aside from overhead electrical wiring, suffered major damage during the 1989 earthquake?
Specifically, were any of the MUNI or BART tunnels adversely affected?
I was in San Francisco at the time (on the 28th floor of an office building on Van Ness Avenue). Rail service was not interrupted on any very long-term basis. Problems resulted primarily from the loss of electric power (for both traction and station facilities), not from damage to BART or MUNI structures and rolling stock. Partial Muni Metro service was restored by the 18th, and full service by the morning of the October 19th. I haven't been able to recall or locate specific information for BART, but I believe the entire system was back in operation within a day or two as well.
For MUNI's operations in the aftermath of the quake, see:
http://www.sfmuseum.org/quake/muni.html
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Did we ever set a date for the trip down to the remains of the 9th Ave. El?
Okay, so this isn't a 100% serious posting, but could we please stop saying "retire" and "retirement" in the context of old subway cars being withdrawn from service? "Withdrawn" would in fact be a better choice.
As far as I'm concerned, "retire" and its derivatives have been completely tainted by their use in two separate contexts. One of these involves those ghastly Beanie Babies. Their maker cynically tries to squeeze money out of children (and, let's face it, more than a few adults) by grandly proclaiming the "retirement" of various types, thereby making it seem like they'll become valuable collectors' items. Talk about playing off greed ...
"Retire" also has been tainted in its human context. It used to be that people retired at age 65, settling down to well-deserved leisure after decades of hard work. But today it seems like more and more lazy people throw away promising careers at age 50, so they can take "early retirement" and play golf. What a waste of brainpower.
So let's not talk about "retirement" of subway cars, okay?
Hey! My little goils like Beanie Babies®.
You gotta problem wid dat, fellah?
We could use "scrap", but that is probably politically incorrect on a site where so many posters pine for pre-air conditioning cars.
If you're going for straight out accuracy, I suppose "withdrawn" is the most accurate, since withdrawn equipment is not always scrapped. Some number go into work service or are kept for spares. Some pieces are sold to museums. Though it's no longer common, resales to other properties or other countries for further use also occurs.
I'll agree that "retire" is kind of an odd word, if you think about it. I'm trying to envision R-27s moving placidly around a big field munching grass. Or perhaps old buses playing the slots at Atlantic City.
But the term is so common it acquires its own meaning.
[If you're going for straight out accuracy, I suppose "withdrawn" is the most accurate, since withdrawn equipment is not always scrapped. Some number go into work service or are kept for spares. Some pieces are sold to museums. Though it's no longer common, resales to other
properties or other countries for further use also occurs.]
I've got one - placed on emeritus status!
10/09/99
My take on this issue is the word "retire" is given the human touch to describe "withdrawn from service". The cars are seen as workers providing a service for X amount of years. Just like we do working for X amount of years. When it comes time to be "withdrawn","retire" seemed more honorably. Just like other posters said,not all cars meet the scrappers torch,when we "retire" they don't march us out in the courtyard and face the firing squad! We go on in other capacities such as finding a part time job to keep busy and enjoy a salary and pension check together. Then most of us don't work at all and play golf,plant tomatoes etc.,enjoying what free time we have now that we never had when we punched the time clock.The subway cars that were retired and not scrapped either go on to museums or recycled into work equipment as other posters stated earlier."Retire" seems more human,"withdrawn" sounds cold and final!
Bill Newkirk
How about "decommissioned" like naval vessels? Just like ship names, car numbers are reused, but only if the vessel/car is no longer in service. So a car would be "commissioned" when it's assigned a number and placed into service and it would be "decommissioned" when it's permanently taken out of service and its number returned to the pool of available car numbers. A decommissioned ship may be scrapped, or it may end up on display as a floating museum, just as a "decommissioned" subway car could end up as scrap or as a museum piece.
[re use of "decommissioned"]
Hey, I like it. Unless, of course, the term proves so popular that Ty, Inc. announces the decommissioning of Beanie Babies, and people throw away promising careers at age 50 so they can decommission and play golf :-)
I can very easily picture R-68s stuffing themselves at a smorgasbord once their service days are over. Of course, they've probably been doing that even now.
The R-10s, on the other hand, would be at a race track running drag races, or at some other contest competing for the title of Highest Decibel Output.
The people here in Maint. & at DOT use "retire" in relation to buses we take out of service. So I think it's an industry term that may have other meanings, but can't be wished away, sorry about that.
Mr t__:^)
Just because we use the word retirement doesn't mean we aren't useful in life anymore. The Bernie Geotz R-22 was retired but is in the consist of the CWR train. 1435, 1437 and 1439 all took early retirements. There is a beginning to life and an end to it. If I leave out the word retirement in my life, I will be pushing daisies before I reach 62 so I definately look forward to the first set of golf clubs I'll lay my hands on.
In the case of the Triplexes, they weren't retired. Not when they were still running as good as ever. They were sent to slaughter just because they were perceived as being "nonstandard".
Why were the BMT Standards slaughtered? I know that there's NO WAY they could of not been Standard, I mean they were CALLED Standard.
In addition to the "non-standard" issue, both Standards and Triplexes were withdrawn before the end of their economic lives because new equipment was purchased by the City while maintenance funds came from the TA budget.
It was a ploy to keep the 15 cent fare going a little while longer.
I was referring to the Triplexes. The reason I use the term "slaughter" was because the Triplexes were still in tip-top shape and rolling along as good as ever when they were withdrawn. The standards were phased out during that entire decade. The oldest ones which were not rebuilt were taken out of service when the R-27s and R-30s arrived. Those which were rebuilt in 1959-60 remained on the Eastern Division into the late 60s. It has been said that these cars were in better shape than the R-1/9s; in fact, several standards which were sitting on the scrap line were given an eleventh-hour stay of execution and returned to revenue service after having the "S" for scrap painted over when the IND was brought to its knees in 1966 due to an alarming increase in car breakdowns. Jamaica Yard resembled a triage outfit.
The second of 3 in the new batch reads:
Want to see the World ? Window seat available.
The 1st was: Clean planes, comfortable seats, on-time arrivals ...
This makes nine since April '98, i.e. #43
Mr t__:^)
Any GO's that might effect my journey home from Shea tonight? Specifically the 7 and E lines.
Will the TA run extra service on the 7 for the game?
There will most likely be extra service home, as there has been for most games this summer.
BTW, do you have an extra ticket?
-Hank
Sorry dude, could only get 4 and when i said i did I found out I had friends that I never knew existed...lol
I caught the end of a story on ABC a couple of days ago about the MTA having some sort of test (TO, conductor, not sure) which had a filing deadline at the end of this month for a January test. Anyone have more information on this?
If you've ever tried to grap the schedule for a train on the MTA website before they redirect you to the "we are adding new schedules" crap, well, I've succeeded in doing that with Lynx. I intend to add the schedules, in text format, to my website.
Just got my eagerly anticipated copy of "The Malbone Street Wreck" by Cudahy in the mail, locked myself in the bedroom and told my wife not to disturb me till I had finished the book. When I got to page 7, however, had to go on-line and comment on an often repeated error. In mentioning the incorporation date of the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island Railway Company, Cudahy states it as being "June 25, 1869." The Brighton line was, however, actually incorporated in 1877, one year before its opening. This mistake is one that has been repeated in numerous sources. The earliest appearance of the error that I've found so far is in Armbruster's "Coney Island" of 1924. The reason for this oft repeated mistake is that there was another company of the same name that was incorporated in 1869 (Actually this was the B,F&CI Rail ROAD Company, the Brighton line was the B,F&CI Rail WAY Company). The 1869 company had laid 6 miles of track by 1870 and was reorganized in 1878 as The Brooklyn, Coney Island & Rockaway Railroad Company.
To possibly confuse matters even more, there was a third company with the same name that was incorporated in 1866. This road however never saw any construction.
All company documents and all government agency documents cite the correct 1877 date. All books whose primary topic is Brooklyn railroad history also cite the correct 1877 date. It is only books that deal only peripherally with transit history that the incorrect date appears. This is why it is so surprising that Cudahy repeats the mistake. To his credit, however, he does present the correct date in a footnote which mentions another source that posits the 1877 date. The same footnote also correctly notes that the B,F,&CI "may have" been formed by a consolidation of The Flatbush & Coney Island Park and Concourse Railroad (1876), and The Coney Island and East River Railroad (1876).
I've had this discussion before with others and one of my favorite points was to mention how only non railroad oriented books contained this error. Unfortunately this recent book will add still more confusion to the topic.
This error from Cudahy surprises me as he has always written such well researched works on transit history. On the other hand I don't think that one small mistake of this sort detracts from the great overall work that he does. I merely wanted to bring it up to clear up any confusion that might result from the repeating of this too common error.
I just got off the phone with a NYCT Schedule Rep. He told me with good confidence that the line will start service on Wednesday, October 13 at 12:01 am.
I will keep my eyes sharply focused on the construction barricades over by Franklin Ave. on the C as I commute home on Tues. 12th just as added insurance. If the barrier is down, I'll make plans to be on the Shuttle Wed. afternoon.
Doug aka BMTman
10/08/99
HERE WE GO AGAIN !!
Bill Newkirk
Well, I can't get there that first week.
I'm being held back because the folks are scared I'll bring encephalitis.
Is it that serious? I heard 5 or so people died from it out of a city with 12 million or so in the area.
Yeah, if you asked me the city is over-reacting with this Malathion spraying which has some long term effects that can be as dangerous as the disease itself.
Anyhow, when the FS is up and running let us know when you plan to "test drive" the line. Maybe we can get a small group together for a special SubTalk trip.
Doug aka BMTman
Sounds good to me.
The CTA just opened today a gift express store on it's web site. Some of the stuff they are selling is pretty cool.
Go to Yourcta.com and click on CTA Store and Gift Express.
Also check out the link to Chicagostore.com
They have some pretty cool stuff from t-shirts to a sign from the Fullerton L station at Chicagostore.com
You can't officially but things yet over the internet from the CTA Gift Express, but you can browse the catalog. You have to order by calling the CTA hotline at 1-888-yourcta. The ability to order off the web site is suppost to be available in a few months.
You can however order transit cards and passes directly from the site.
Check it out, it's pretty cool.
BJ
Dave,
I got some scanned pictures of a few subway cars, including a GOH'ed R44 (may be the first for this site)...Can you please contact me by e-mail when you read this?
TIA!
Nick
Hello Dave Pirmann, Couple day ago i added more subway pictures into my page. I have R16 #6452 at PS 248, RD328, 334, & 346, Also IR & OR722, and Loc59, 67, 69, 886, 889 & #61 with #896 together at 36st Yard. So you can addd thoses pictures into your nycsubway page. Thank You
Peace Out
Meaney
PS I still hunting more workcars this months.
dear light rail SUBWAY and other rail and transit fans
QUESTION ???? !!!!!!
DONT YOU JUST HATE SUBWAY AND RAIL CARS THAT DONT HAVE
RAIL FAN WINDOWS ?????
LIKE ATLANTA SAN FRANCISCO LOS ANGELES ETC ???
THIS IS NOT TRUE IN CHICAGO !!!!!!!!
AND ON MOST NEW YORK SUBWAY CARS LIKE THE REDBIRDS ETC.
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO AGREES WITH ME ???
thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com ........
I disagree Salami man. I like all systems but what are your talking about.
Are are photographs on the internet.
excuse me sir my name is SALAAM i am not your
S A L I M I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Salaam is the Islamic word for peace. Please respect other cultures Mr Train Control. As for me, SHALOM,SALAAM, we are all railfans.
Peace,
John J. Blair
I didn't mean to imply that I didn't respect the guy, only a little playful humor. People change my name to humor themselves and that's OK.
Sorry, just a little playful humor. I respect your threads.
QUESTION ???? !!!!!!
DONT YOU JUST HATE SUBWAY AND RAIL CARS THAT DONT HAVE
RAIL FAN WINDOWS ?????
LIKE ATLANTA SAN FRANCISCO LOS ANGELES ETC ???
THIS IS NOT TRUE IN CHICAGO !!!!!!!!
AND ON MOST NEW YORK SUBWAY CARS LIKE THE REDBIRDS ETC.
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO AGREES WITH ME ???
thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com ........
Don't get too attached to the railfan windows in Chicago... They're rapidly disappearing as the cars are being fitted with full-width cabs for OPTO.
Life sucks, huh?
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
At least you can still see through the front of the 3200-series cars.
Get used to it. That is the current wave of the future. The cars need a full width cab for several reasons including: placing the computer equipment in a "secure" but accessible area, allow for conductors to be able to control the doors on either side w/o having to cross to the next car and (dare I say OPTO?).
In NYC the R-62 and R-62A's are slowly being converted to sets of 5 (in most cases - I am not sure how they will do it on the #3). On the #4 they are currently leaving window panel in the left wall of the cab in place. On the #6 they are covering that panel with a metal sheet with a place for advertising.
.
I have not been on the #1 in a while so I am not sure how that is being handled.
In NYC, when the Redbirds, and the R-32 thru R-42's are retired that will be the end of the railfan window (all the R-62 and R-62A's will be converted by then). Of course no one will ever expect to see the single width cab end of the R-68 and R-68A's in the operating postion.
What, no more Slant R40s??? They are still in supurb condition, and I love that railfan window. How many years do they have left?
I am being optomistic but I would say 5 years at the most.
On the No.1 Line there where the first to cover the window with metal sheet.
Also the NO.1/9, and No.6 Line R62A are mostly Transvse. I think there is only one car not Transvse. I think its 1670.
On Philadelphia's BSS there are full cabs, but one can still see in fron of the car. In fact, one can even see into the motorman's cab and view all of the gadgets in there. So full cabs are not necessarily bad.
As for the other lines in Philadelphia, they are getting better, not worse. Philadelphia just retired its M3 cars on the MFSE, which had a front window only on the door, and nothing to the left of the door. The new M4s have regular cabs, a railfan window, and no less then 3 rows of seats behind the window. This is true for all windows at the ends of the 2 car consists.
And yes, the M4s do use OPTO. They have computer screens inside the cab (this site I think has a picutre of them) so that the motorman does not have to look out the window. The bad part about that is that one cannot say hello and good bye to the motorman when one enters or exits.
I got lucky once or twice when the R-68s ran on the Q and got a half-cab facing out. That's a thing of the past.
To us railfans, no railfan window can be considered cruel and unusual punishment. I like what they did on the R-44 cab doors, leaving a small cubbyhole window to look through - as long as it isn't covered up with a newspaper. The cab door window glass on the R-46s and R-68s leaves something to be desired, but you can see something.
With a little TLC, the R-32s will still be around for a while.
10/09/99
Salaam Allah,
Welcome to the new world of OPTO. Those dreaded four letters that spell the end of railfan windows everywhere! Railfan windows are slowly meeting there demise and the windows available are scratched,smudged or plain dirty. Now the open railfan window,that was a treat that couldn't be beat. You probably had your last taste of that on Philly's Market Frankfort just as we did. But goin back in time in NYC our last open window vista was the R-21 and 22's. Although finding an open R-15,16 or 17 porthole window open was like finding a hundred dollar bill! Going back furthur,the BMT D-types and AB's,the ultimate open window experiences.I gues when the final railfan window becomes history,us railfans will have to sit down and avoid looking at the other riders and blend in with the crowd!
Bill Newkirk
Bill Newkirk
Yesterday I saw a mixed train on the B (Four of each, Two units) Is this luck that I saw it or a new practice?
What were the unit numbers?
I would call it a mistake. Although htere is nothing wrong with mixing R-68s with R-68As, the official policy is still not to. Reasoning is that R-68s have NYAB brake equipment while R-68As use WABCO. Though completely comptible, engineering frowns on mixing the two except on the R-32s at Jamaica.
What does NYAB stand for again.
And W A B COmpany stands for
e i r
s r a
t k
i e
n
g
h
o
u
s
e
Right?
New York Air Brake...........Westinghouse Air Brake Co........Didn't understand the rest of it!
NYAB = New York Air Brake
WABCO = Westinghouse Air Brake Co.
Dont try this at home !!!!!
THAT DIDN'T COME OUT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!
Yesterday I saw a mixed train on the B (Four of each, Two units) Is this luck that I saw it or a new practice?
Yesterday I saw a mixed train on the B (Four of each, Two units) Is it luck that I saw this or a new practice?
Sorry for the double post
You mean a quadruple post!
OK, JFK airport should be changed to New York Trump International Airport. Trump is tops in my charts and he will become President of the United States.
Sure beats Reagan international airport.
I'll drink to that thought. New York Trump International Airport has a nice ring to it.
let him pay for traffic and transit improvements out of his only money or raise the fund without new taxes or fare hikes
What the hell is wrong with JFK?? I say keep it the way it is!!!!!!!
Calm down, it is only a suggestion to change the name. Remember "The Donald" is home grown and JFK was from Boston and Cape Cod. The airport should be named after people who are home grown.
BTW, it's Reagan National Airport. And just because you didn't like a politician is no need to be so childish. Can you imagine people who may not have liked FDR making a snide comment about FDR Drive every chance they get. I even walk into the Kennedy Center in Washington without commenting that it should be called the Idlewild Center :-)
Is this an attempt to trump the recent Rudy vs. Hillary thread, with 259 responses at last count. Unless we're discussing rail transit to or within the airport, I think this subject is off-topic.
And Hartsfield Internation Airport should be changed to Ted Turner Airport!
Mayor Hartsfield is home grown and that's OK. JFK wasn't. In Atlanta there is Turner Field for Ted Turner.
While I would love to see a third party president elected, it won't be Donald Trump. He knows nothing about international relations (other than the kind he had with Ivana). And Oprah Winfrey for vice president? They would quickly become nothing but figureheads for the "permanent government" bureaucrats. Think of the show "Yes, Minister", with "President Trump" instead of the Minister. Yuck!
We need a non politicial as President and "The Donald" does not lie about matters. What you see is what you get.
There is a number 3 train with cars 2001 & 2010 coupled together. A coincidence? Or not.
Is there a big black rectangular oblesk in either of them?
If I may ask, what is the significance of these two cars being together? There are 254 cars in the Livonia Fleet. It's not beyond the realm of mathamatical possibilities that these two cars might be added together.
Steve, the category is science fiction movies. Got it now?
Duh, forgive me.... I don't know how that one slipped by me!!!!
2001 & 2010. Very famous sci-fi books and movies. 2001 Directed by Stanley Kubrick. Remember HAL 9000?
So a couple of days ago I was at Church Avenue on the Brighton Line. I was going southbound on a Q and there was a D waiting at the station. Anyway when the D released its brake, the brakes made the EXACT sound as a R-32. But the speed was the same. The Q left a little later nad still caught up before the D coasted.
In my opinion, the best cars are the R-32s and R-38s. They're still fast, sleek, and comfy. Whoever built those cars did a really good job. The biggest pieces of trash, and I know I may get some angry messages over this one, are the R-44s. They're slow as heck, the seats stink, and that wood-type interior makes it feel like riding in a coffin. The R-46s aren't much better, but they're a little more mechanically sound. I think when the IND/BMT gets the new stuff, they should trash the R44s/R46s before anything else. ATTENTION R-44/R46 buffs, if there are any, be gentle.
TJM
I think the R-44 to R-68 seats are THE BEST. Much better than that bench crap. My second favorite car is the R-46 (after the R-32).
You LIKE those seats? God!
The R-32s were built by Budd. That says it all. They have a legitimate shot at breaking the alltime service record for a subway car fleet.
The R-38s are a St. Louis Car Co. product. They may not last as long, as only their skin is stainless steel while the rest of the car structure is of a different alloy and is prone to corrosion.
I feel the same way about the R-44s, but think the R-46s aren't all that bad. Don't get me started on the R-68s.
On what was the southbound track of the NYWB just south of the 180th St. station, the tracks were removed a few weeks ago. Now, the concrete roadbed has also been removed from a section, leaving just the bare steelwork. What is happening? Is this because chunks of concrete have again been falling on the neighborhood?
I heard that they are removing it.
Yes, they have ripped up the tracks and are now removing the trackbed. Looks like a totaldemolition job. Why are they doing it?
Shame, Shame, Shame, Shame, Shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This could have been an extension of the secound Avenue Line into the #5 route.
Let me tell you something. I can't believe people would allow this to happen!!!!
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!
Yes, this was the intended route.
This line was old enough that the viaduct would have to be replaced before seeing train service anyway.
This is true. Wasn't it also true that the 2/5 approach from 174th St would have also been realigned to eliminate the sharp curves at East Tremont Ave??
--Mark
The structure is no longer safe to hold up the weight. It will all be condemned. The flagging quarters and the police station are going to be moved as well.
Including the now unused NYW&B E180 St. express platform?
10/09/99
You mean every trace of the old NY W & B at 180th St and south will be razed and removed? I assume the old NY W & B office bldg. will remain. The elevated structure looks stronger than the Manhattan Bridge! We need more info on this,
Bill Newkirk
I don't know the details. But we were told that the PD and flagging offices are moving. Whatever that entails I don't know, because those two places occupy the old platforms.
ANYTHING looks stronger than the Manhattan Bridge.
Special M service will operate between Ninth Ave & Chambers St. to take the place of suspended #4 service between Atlantic Ave. and Brooklyn Bridge.......Split N service between Ditmars Blvd./Queensboro Plaza & Times Square/Coney Island. Use the #7, which will run extra service, as a bridge between the split N services. In actuality, the N will discharge passengers at 42/Times Square run lite and relay at 57/7 and go back into service from 57/7 to Stillwell. R trains will operate from 95 St. under the same arrangement.......Queens IND: for the next 4 weekends, they will finish replacing switches at Continental and other work. No R trains in Queens, split E service between Roosevelt (Queens bound express track D4)/WTC & Jamaica Center/Van Wyck Briarwood (transfer to F) with a relay at Jamaica Yard lead, with the F the only service running thru Queens every 12 minutes, non-stop in both directions from Roosevelt to Continental. Queens bound via local track, Manhattan bound via the Queens bound express track D4, with a relay at Continental from D3 to D4, and back to D3 before it arrives at Roosevelt. Bus service provided in both directions to/from local stations since the F will be unable to handle the passenger loads. Manhattan bound, buses will discharge at 69/Fisk #7 line. I will avoid all these GO's! I'll be in Branford with my 2 boys and another group on Sunday, and we'll be at MN open house next Saturday. I'll be wearing a blue motormans jacket with and Oshkosh Baseball Cap.
Does anybody have any sources for any scrap cars!!! Redbirds any R-types.
Iam looking to get any parts etc.. 1/2 1/4 body etc.
Or any front end body parts body signage ( front header with motormans cab )seats,lighting,strap hangers.
What really looks good and gave me the idea.
Golden deli shop on staten island in the K-mart shopping plaza next
to the SI mall that has a R1-9 1/2 body in the deli full function with fans,lights, dest sign and all Looks really awsome.
I have 9+acres Upstate Ny that I can make this happen.
Thanks Advance for any info...
"Keep on Railing"
Frank.......
nyboy@ix.netcom.com
Why Not buy the whole bleeding thing if you have so much land. It seems to me that a car could be had, delivered for less than @15,000 and if you go into serious scrounge mode a section of track can be had for a few grand more. to power the thing, I am persently working on a battery system up here in Syracuse that could be installed under the seats of a subway car. also, my 23-ton GE switcher is located on just 450 feet of track with a small siding (@200 feet) and there are two other pieces of equipment that it can switch around. a small railroad of this type could be had for less than many people have tied up in model trains and be a lot more fum
We got out of a concert this evening at Midnight on 34th Street and got into the 34th Street/7th Ave Station. We were waiting for a 2 train to take us to Bergen St and we were waiting for about half an hour when an MTA worker came onto the Express Platform and announced that there would be no more Express trains and to catch the 2 on the Local platform. Everyone moved to the Local Platform and the MTA workers blockaded the Express Tracks with a flimsy metal gate and red tape. We waited on the Local side for an hour and a half, 5 1 trains came by but no two's. There was no announcement about what was wrong. Then the two showed up on the Express Track and everyone ran over to it breaking down the metal gate and ripping the tape. We all managed to get on the 2 but there was still no announcement apologizing for inconveniences or explaining what happened. Anybody know why this occured?
Not sure what happened, but it sounds like a 2 train was delayed and they tried to make up some time by having it run express. The 2 now runs local in Manhattan at night to supplement 1 local service.
There was a shooting at 149th St and 3rd Avenue causing a suspension of service between 149th Grand Concourse and E180th St. The police were everywhere, they ran into my home station at Jackson Av. Service was out from 11PM until 2AM.
-Stef
The Sunday NY Times Online article on the Friday shooting on the 2:
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-subway-killing.html
Top Stories
16-Year-Old Gunned Down on Subway
OCTOBER 09TH, 1999
Police are investigating the death of of a Manhattan teen who was gunned down on a subway train.
Cops say the victim, a 16-year-old male, was riding a southbound 2 train at 149th street in the Bronx around 10:45-p.m. Friday night when two men tried to steal his gold chain.
The two unidentified suspects shot the teen in the face. He died at the scene.
Police say they caught one of the suspects, who is being held for questioning.
Please dial 800-722-2116 and demand answers why TA brass sat on tushes and didn't make any announcements for an hour and a half. The workers who blockaded the platform probably didn't know the #2 was going to be express because it is scheduled to be local at night. They weren't even told by supervision of the change in schedules. At NJT, management would be handing out written apologies in your case but at the NYCTA, you are just another dollar fifty to them.
You have a good point in complaining about announcements not being made, but what does the TA have to apologise about? The incident did happen at a bad time operationally: at around the time IRT supervision were preparing for the orderly closure of the #4 line between Brooklyn Bridge & Atlantic Ave. for weekend track/structural work. During the overnite hours, only a skeleton staff of supervision is on duty, similar to any other 24 hour business. While it was a tragedy that a young man was murdered on the subway, handing out written apologies will only contribute more to the litter problem on the trains, stations & tracks. Are you blaming TA brass for a young mans murder?
A man's murder is an unfortunate incident on the subway and has nothing to do with what Im talking about. The skeletonized supervision is no excuse if they are supposed to supervise and state these service changes during incidents to train crews and passengers on platforms. If the TA hires a conductor during rush hours to make public address announcements from dispatcher's offices which they do at Dekalb, Nevins, and Jay Street and don't hire these guys on the midnights, it is NO EXCUSE for the dispatchers who have been making announcements for years before the hiring of Dr. Deekman, not to make an announcement. The Transit Professional will also attest that at other railroads such as NJT, the safe, convenient and efficient transport of passengers is a number one priority. Passengers are informed of delays and in suspension of service, buses are provided in a timely manner with apologies and refunds credited to accounts for inconviences including those of weather related occurances. The TA has the attitude of the trainmaster in Pelham One-Two-Three where he states to the Police "What do they want for their lousy thirty-five cents, live forever"? When a train lays down, I've seen superintendants tuck their safety vests into their bags and pretend nothing happened while the train crews who don't have a clue to what is going down get bombarded with question after question and the occassional abusive passenger. Get over it, we don't serve customers, we serve passenger because of the inadequate tools given to us by the bloated supervisory force, some who don't even ride the trains. I think to make a better system we should initiate a residency requirement mandating ALL supervision to live in the five boroughs and surrender their yard parking decals as they would be forced to ride the Hell on Wheels they have created. Im sorry to see that kid get shot for his chain but I am angry to see hundreds of thousands of straphangers get shot for their tokens.
Times Sqaure Tower Dispatcher is in control on Station Annoutsments from 96 Street to Chambers on the No.1,2,3 Lines. So blame them for that part.
Friday was a bad day for the IRT.
I have a feeling that this will be a very quiet weekend on this site. I imagine most "talkers" are at Branford for "Autumn in New York". We can only envy them being able to get up there for all the festivities, and hope they will post full reports on their return.
We will! Dave Wallace and I and my younger son are going tomorrow, but I suspect that there will be quite a few reports tonight. I'm planning on getting up early tomorrow morning so I can read them before we go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See if you can get a look at gate car #1349 while you are there. One side is supposed to be painted green and the other is painted brown. I sure wish I could get there myself.
I agree with Karl, I wish I was there as well! But Im stuck here in Florida, oh well guess Ill settle for watching my new brass BRT 1200's on my layout! Anyone riding Union Railway #316 please say hello to Ron Parente for me.
Talking as a person who was recently for a fabulous 10 day Disney World vacation less than 2 months ago, I wish I were stuck in Florida! But seriously, while we passing thru your hometown on Amtrak, we noticed lots of CSX track replacement & reallignment.
WHERE IS EVERYBODY?
Da--------Da Da Da, Da Da Da Da Da Da
Get it, British Airways TV commercial?
In addition to the error about the opening date of the Brighton Line which I mentioned in a previous post under a different subject heading, I've found the following items, which to the best of my knowledge are also incorrect:
-The chart on pg 8 seems to have a couple of wrong dates:
Manhattan Beach Line opened in 1877
West End Line opened in 1864 (at least that's when it opened to Coney Island. Is it possible that it did open two years earlier, short of Coney?)
-Page 17 states that the 1896 connection to the Fulton El crossed the LIRR at grade. The ramp actually started just north of Prospect Place. This left only two grade crossings on the route to Bedford: at Park Place and at Prospect Place. The ramp thus crossed over the LIRR at Atlantic Ave.
-Page 22 in discussing the rerouting of Brighton trains over the Manhattan Beach line states "exactly how this rerouting was effected remains unclear; perhaps temporary trolley wire was strung over the Long Island Railroad while construction was under way; perhaps BRT elevated trains were hauled along the Long Island by steam engines." According to Seyfried trolley wire was indeed set up over the LIRR to accomodate BRT electric trains.
Re: West End--the line did open first to Bath Beach. I've been back and forth with Joe Brennan on a date. I thought 1865 (at Coney Island)--he thinks as late as 1867. So this seems to still be unproven, IMO.
The "Brighton crossing the LIRR at grade" comment actually startled me! I know there was the ramp at Prospect Place, but Brian's assertion was so definite I wondered whether there was some brief grade crossing situation I didn't know about. Common sense, though, says there was never a grade crossing. It would have fouled the LIRR line, and, in general, railroads cannot force a grade crossing on a pre-existing line if they're opposed with a very difficult-to-obtain order of necessity from a court. For sure, the LIRR wouldn't have wanted such a crossing.
The reason the above gave me pause, though, is because, in most other instances, Brian acknowledges when he doesn't know the answer to something, or at least says something like "we don't know" or "it remains unclear." But I think it is 99.9% the Atlantic Ave. crossing didn't exist.
I was also a bit surprised that he knew the Brighton used the LIRR r-o-w (which was later completely dismantled) during the grade crossing project, but didn't know that it was strung with trolley wire for the Brighton trains. It would have been an incredible mess to have to switch to steam for the frequent BRT trains.
In checking in with my memory I remember a 1947 article on the West End Line which claimed that the line opened in 1864 as a horse car line, was converted to steam using dummy type engines in 1865 and was extended to Coney Island in 1867. I'll look for that article.
<< In checking in with my memory I remember a 1947 article on the West End Line which claimed that the line opened in 1864 as a horse car line >>
The book, "The Brooklyn Elevated" states the same.
Right, but "Brooklyn Elevated" doesn't go on to mention the change to steam in 1865 or the extension to Coney Island in 1867.
>>>The book, "The Brooklyn Elevated" states the same. <<<
I've been looking for that book for some time. Struck out with Amazon & BN; haven't tried the Strand or ebay yet. Did you get your copy when it was new?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Try Advanced Book Exchange at abebooks.com. Don't konw if they have that particular book but I've found stuff there that none of those other places have ever heard of.
>>>abebooks.com.<<<
No luck but thanks.
Also try Bibliofind (www.bibliofind.com) - a lot of the same dealers who list on ABE also list there, but there are some that only use one or the other. ABE appeals to the genealogy crowd, Bibliofind has more of an emphasis on the popular stuff. I automatically check both. Sometimes a dealer will list one price on ABE and a different one on Bibliofind, so it pays to look!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>abebooks.com.<<<
No luck but thanks.
I have seen it at Caboose Hobbies in Denver.
This book is available at the museum store in the Shoreline Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT.
I already have the 2000 NY subway calendar. How can I
purchase the Philadelphia version?
10/09/99
The publisher who publishes my Subway Calendar does the Philadelphia Transit calendar as well as others. Here are instructions for requesting a copy by regular mail,his E-mail system is not ready yet.
WEEKEND CHIEF PUBLISHING
PO BOX 165
HICKSVILLE,NY 11801-0165
Bill Newkirk
Do they sell any such calednars at the transit museum in either Philadelphia or New York?
10/10/99
Well my NYC Subways Calendar is now being sold at the NY Transit Museum gift shops , call to see if they are available before making the trip. They don't sell the Philadelphia Transit calendar.
As for SEPTA's Transit Museum store , call first before making the trip. They didn't carry my NYC Subway Calendar last year and bought regular railroad calendars that didn'y do well. When SEPTA bought my a few years ago,they all sold out and people were still asking for them. I'm trying to get them to carry it this year,but they don't return my calls! Go figure! As a last resort,refer to my earlier post and utilize regular mail to request a copy from Weekend Chief.
Bill Newkirk
Bill Newkirk
Last Friday I stopped at Willis Hobbies in Mineola. They had several ______ 2000 caledars. I remember a Subway, an LIRR, and I believe a Streetcar one among others. They may have the Philly one. Call 516 information for their number. I think they have a website called Willishobbies.com. Try it and perhaps you can e-mail them from there.
Bill, I got yours at Branford last August.
Shoreline at Branford still had a few this weekend. You can also buy stuff via the phone from the TA museum and sometimes they have a give away with a $30 order (I got a subway poster of the 1st 77 MCs that way a few months back).
Mr t__:^)
On Saturday, October 9th, 1999
R-68 unit number 2714 has a defective door. Door number 2 doesn't open. And some dude left his coat on it but that doesn't matter.
Try contacting a memorabilia retailer I met who may be involved on this site. Alan Zelazo, Whistle & Rollsign Store, 5 Brentwood Drive, Morris Plains, New Jersey 07950. My last catalog from him is dated september 1998. The web site address on his catalog is http://members.aol.com/SubwayAl/subwaymemorabilia.index.html an e-mail address is: subwayal@aol.com. I tried the website and couldn't get through. Maybe if Mr. Zelazo sees this message and wishes to correct or provide an address for his website he will. Thank you for that one on one tour at Kingston today and letting me make-believe I drove # 6938. I bought the calendar.
Hey! Are you coming up next weekend for the special excursion? We're going to haul 6398 around with loco #9 up the mountain to town and also out to Kingston point on the Hudson.
The Ulster and Delaware Excursion, which will pass through on the same day, will it be there at the right time?
It's all part of the same NHRS trip.
So I get a subway car too. Yay!!!
I spent the day at Seashore in Kennebunkport, where we had our annual "Members' Day." Most of my day was spent instructing and piloting our members who are not qualified, so that they would have the opportunity to run many of our cars. The only New York representative I ran was Third Avenue 631 (sister car to Branford's 629). But we had out all kinds of other great street cars and interurbans.
I hope those of you who went to Branford has a great a day as I did at Seashore!
Next Saturday will be a transit & weather together day for me in NYC, which I'm looking forward to given all of the GOs Bill has told us about...
Does anyone have a map of the Far Rockaway line when it was still all LIRR? I want to see what the configuration was like before the MTA changed part of it to subway. I'm sure there is a map somewhere on this site, but I can't find it. A track map would be ideal. Thanks.
It was probably the same, just some crossovers were different. The 4 tracking continued north of Liberty further to the Whitepot Undejump (Whitepot is old name for Forest Hills), which would be an interesting thing for a track map. Anyway, get a track map of the LIRR Far Rockaway line and extend two tracks from the current terminal to the Mott Avenue Subway terminal.
The stations from the main line to Broad Channel were:Rego Park (on the Main Line but since closed)ParksideBrooklyn ManorOzone ParkAqueductHoward BeachHamilton BeachThe RauntBroad Channel
I know the Raunt is an island in the bay, but could one get there any way other than train? What was there? Did it last until the suspension of cross-bay train service in 1951? (was it 1951?)
Eugenius, I was just going by a couple of books of the LIRR including one devoted exclusively to the Rockaway Branch, the one I mentioned earlier, "Change at Ozone Park". Unfortunately it doesn't say much about the area around The Raunt other than it is a small island. However there is a picture of the station and it didn't look like much, 2 shelters and an overhead crossover-sort of like one of the old stations on the LIC branch. However the photo is from 1933 and it probably was renovated afterward. Trains did stop there up until the day of the fire.
Also the book mentions a station called Goose Creek between Hamilton Beach and The Raunt. It was closed in the 30's when most of the buildings on the island closed down with the pollution of Jamaica Bay. That station looked like a regular station in the photo.
BTW, the 1rst time I rode on the Rockaway Branch it was already the IND. I rode on an "E" (an R1-9) when my grandmother moved to Rockaway. The "E" went to Rockaway during rush hours in those days, all the way from 179 St.
P.S. Sorry I got rid of my page talk message. I know you liked it!!!
"The "E" went to Rockaway during rush hours in those days, all the way from 179 St."
The longest route in subway history, right? The C to Beford Park and now the current A arrangement.
Jeff: That's right. The longest possible route was the E from 179 St to Far Rockaway which was a little more than 36 miles.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wonder if you could do a round trip in one shift.
Not on an R-68 :)
--Mark
You could read War and Peace from cover to cover if that were the case. Or Gone With the Wind.
I believe part of The Raunt was rebuild by the NYCTA when they claimed ownership to the Rockaway Line around the same time they rebuild the bridge.
Today, the island that is referred to as The Raunt is under the jurisdication of the National Parks Service as part of the Gateway estuary system. Only the fenced in ROW is property of NYCT and the City of New York. Since the Gateway system was not around during the time of LIRR service (it was enacted in 1971), I would assume that the LIRR had claims to The Raunt.
Doug aka BMTman
Rego park was on the mainline? Where?
10/10/99
Right where the Westbound Rockaway track left the underjump and joined the mainline. There is a small trestle there today. the platform was west of the trestle. No traces remain today.Photos are in the book "Change at Ozone Park". Page 19 shows the platform as high level , page 22 shows abbreviated low level platforms.
Bill Newkirk
What's left of it doesn't look like the 4-track extended North of Atlantic Avenue. It looks like it was 2-track from between the Atlantic Branch and the Mainline.
Oops, I meant further TOWARDS Whitepot. I didn't think it extended as four track the whole way.
Tony, you should buy the book "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George. It is a history of the LIRR Rockaway branches with plenty of pictures. There are timetables of the round robin to Rockaway Park through the Rockaway Line from Ozone Pk & Howard Beach (through the present day "A" Train route) and returning through the present day LIRR route through Valley Stream. (and the reverse round robin) There are a number of maps, although the only track maps are at selected interlockings and yards.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try my OUTRAGEOUS color quiz!!!
I should have mentioned in my previous post that I bought a copy at the transit museum.
According to the MTA, such a ride is possible on one ticket, but since tickets are punched three times, how would the tickets be collected on this trip if you end up taking four trains? One would start at Montauk Branch station then goto Babylon, Babylon to Jamaica, Jamaica to Ronkonkoma and Ronkonkoma to a Greenport Shuttle station.
An educated guess says that the ticket would be punched on the "West" side of the ticket for the first legs (one punch each), then one punch on the "East" side Jamaica-Ronkonkoma, then lifted on the Greenport Scoot.
I'm not sure its important if there is an "official" way to handle this. Many conductors, faced with an unusual situation (passenger sleeps through stop, stopover) just punt. They'll return the ticket to the passenger and write an explanation on the back of the ticket for the next conductor.
I wonder that anyone has actually taken that routing except as a railfan experience.
I'm curious as to how the railroad figures its tariff on this. The web site shows they would almost (but not quite) charge you for a trip to Montauk-Jamaica and another Jamaica-Greenport.
OTOH, punching up a cross-island Zone 9 trip from Babylon to Huntington routes it via Hicksville, charging just a 75 cent premium over the regular 9 to 9 fare.
FWIW, there actually used to be a North Fork to South Fork train, probably the first LIRR train called "Scoot," which ran from Greenport to Amagansett (one stop short of Montauk) one rt daily.
[I wonder that anyone has actually taken that routing except as a railfan experience.
I'm curious as to how the railroad figures its tariff on this. The web site shows they would almost (but not quite) charge you for a trip to Montauk-Jamaica and another Jamaica-Greenport.]
Is it possible to make a Montauk-Greenport trip with the direction change at Hicksville (or Mineola) vs. Jamaica? Wish I had some schedules handy ...
It's possible to make the trip from Patchogue (but not Montauk) by making the change at Mineola. There's one westbound from Patchogue (6:53) in the AM which stops at Mineola at 7:57 AM and the Ronkonkoma/Greenport (via bus in the latest timetable) leaves Mineola in the opposite direction at 8:15 AM and arrives in Greenport at 10:32 AM.
Of course, if you were coming from Montauk, you'd have to catch the 12:52 AM which gets into Patchogue at 2:38 AM and wait four hours for the Mineola train (I hear there's plenty to do in Patchogue at that hour).
You'd probably be better off just swimming from fork to fork.
10/09/99
Or maybe when the first conductor hears the passengers wild tale of going from Montauk to Greenport would probably exclaim:
"Not for nuttin',wouldn't be easier to hire a cab and go through Shelter Island to Greenport ?"
Bill Newkirk
I'm not sure if any Babylon Express trains through the old Central Branch (through Bethpage, Lindenhurst,etc) stop at Hicksville or Mineola. I think they all go non-stop to Babylon. I might be wrong though.
There is one inbound and two outbound Babylon/Montauk Line trains that stop on the Main Line.
The 252p Jamaica-Patchogue makes only Mineola.
The 444p Hunterpoint-Patchogue makes Mineola and Hicksville
(The latter train used to originate at LIC and use the Montauk Nranch--I'll have to look into that)
The 653a Patchogue-LIC makes Hicksville and Mineola.
When they added Mineola to the Montauk Line public TT, they hailed "Cross-Island Service." Yeah, right.
Like I said, I wasn't sure.
I originally thought it would be zone to zone (and therefore much cheaper as it would be one zone) but if that was the case anyone going to Jamaica from Montauk could just buy a ticket to Greenport and get off at Jamaica. (Unless they gave a rebate upon proof of completion) Similarly, anyone going from Oyster Bay to Jamaica could buy a ticket to Port Washington. I think like a cop, right?
I expected them to charge a Zone 14 (Montauk/Greenport) to Zone 2 (Jamaica) fare, but I didn't expect the fare to be almost double.
A peak fare (and remember only one direction can be peak) is $22.00.
Can't imagine why. It seems the LIRR thinks that way, too. I tried something similar a few years ago. Any continuous trip that requires going West to Jamaica and then East on a diferent line costs the same as two separate tickets, to and from Jamaica. They may not know how to run a railroad, but they weren't born yesterday.
About 15 years ago, I used to ride a few times a month from Rockville Centre to Roslyn. The agent at RVC would sell me a ticket that had both a westbound and eastbound punch area. The cost of the ticket was the same as if I were travelling only from RVC to Jamaica.
I believe that the fare was part of some special "intra Long Island" deal, and that the tickets could only bought in stations -- not from a conductor on the train. Essentially you paid for the longer leg of your trip. So if you wanted to go from Long Beach to Babylon via Lynbrook, you'd pay the Lynbrook to Babylon fare and the Long Beach to Lynbrook was free.
I guess this deal went the way of the "Special Sunday round-trip" ($2.35 round trip from Zone 5 to Shea Stadium with $2 general admission -- of course the 1978 Mets probably weren't worth $4.35!!)
Chuck
Given the spotty LIRR schedule east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon (two round trips a day?), is this trip even possible?
There are two round trips to Greenport, Three make it as far as Riverhead (counting the GP two) and Four to Yaphank (counting the above again). On weekends, two trains run out to GP.
The Montauk Branch has 22 trains on Friday. Since the Cannonball runs on Fridays only, only 21 trains run other weekdays. Eight terminate at Patchogue and another 8 at Speonk. One goes to Easthampton and the other 5 to Montauk. Sixteen eastbound and 21 westbound run on weekends. In westbound service, eight trains start at Patchogue and 9 end, six west and five east at Speonk and the remaining 7 at Montauk including the Cannonball. Eastbound, 6 trains run to Patchogue, 5 to Speonk and the remaining 5 to Montauk.
I wouldn't consider the entire Montauk Branch to be so spotty.
BTW, does the LIRR have a printed Greenport timetable, or would one have to use the Ronkonkoma timetable?
EDT --
Greenport service is included in the Ronkonkoma branch schedule.
Chuck
Thanks for the answer. What I really wanted to know is what street the two connecting tracks ran on. Also, were the tracks still elevated on the subway end? Did they dip down? And, which was the original station? These may seem like dumb questions, but I'm a young guy, 22, and this configuration was before my time. It stinks being a young train buff. I missed all the good stuff
It stinks being a young train buff. I missed all the good stuff.
I thought the same thing, born in 1946. I joined the ERA young (1958), just in time to meet all the older railfans who were then scrambling around to cover trolley lines before they all passed out of existence.
Look at the bright side. Unlike 1958, when rail transit was in a steep decline, services are now expanding. You'll be seeing new things after I'm just a memory.
You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway.
Yes, and to add a bit onto Paul's post, you should also be inspired by the fact that there are some places you can go and see vintage equipment still in running condition. This includes the Brandford/Shoreline Trolley Museum in Conn. I just went yesterday and became a member. They have an impressive collection of cars. My particular favorite was their nearly mint condition IND R-9 subway car. There was also a BMT Standard and a SIR "Standard". Not to mention the R-17 that I got to run down their mainline (YEAH!). It looks great, but still needs alittle more TLC (a plug for Stef).
Even though you may have missed seeing and riding some models of legendary subway cars while in revenue service, if you can find the time to get to places like Branford or Kennebukport(sp?), Maine (a plug for Todd) you will be pleasantly surprised that rapid transit history does indeed live on.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks for the plug, Doug. It's the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. Just 5-1/2 hours from NYC.
>>>>You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway. <<<
So what do *you* think will happen with 2nd Avenue?
Will they build the two track "stubway" between 125th and 63rd? This ignores Bronx riders and Lower East Side riders.
Will they build a four track trunk line between the Bronx and Brooklyn, which I think they should do? It would take private funding. Maybe Trump could help if he gets bored running for President and he's between supermodels.
Or will they debate it for years, and finally punt when another recession comes?
The three top possibilities for what will happen in the next 20 years or so (in order of probability).
I'm not goofing, either.
Top scenario. The MTA, Giuliani and Pataki will give Silver a face-saving "out" by promising to "seriously plan" a full Second Avenue Subway. Construction will commence on the 63rd-125th St. segment (2 tracks) and, with universal political commitment it actually gets done before 2010.
Second most likely scenario: Silver "hangs tough" on the 2nd Avenue subway. To avoid a total logjam, the state goes along, and a new DEIS is needed for the area south of 63rd St (delay of 2-3 years). The full flying junction north-east-south-west is completed at 2nd Avenue/53rd Street and digging is done in Silver's Lower East Side District. The City's next fiscal crisis causes it to withdraw its share of funding, and we are left with uncompleted subway sections, but more of them, and a great junction for Peter Dougherty to depict in his Track of New York book.
Third most likely scenario: Silver effectively blocks GCT-LIRR until he gets a commitment of a "full Second Avenue subway." This stalemate lasts until Silver realizes he won't be the next Governor. Neither the GCT-LIRR nor any part of 2nd Avenue gets built because the State spent the money on road improvments in Syracuse and Utica.
N.B. My personal opinion is that the 125th-63rd plan should be pushed, then rekindle the fires for the rest of the line.
The reason I believe this is long experience with bureaucracy, especially NY bureaucracy. I really believe that the uptown segment stands a shot of getting built, and soon, because it has been designed with practicality in mind. The routing from Lex/125 to 63rd, then via the Broadway Express may not be ideal, but it is viable. in NYC-politik-think, this means that they may actually be serious.
When they're not serious, they promise pie-in-the-sky, because by the time it finally sinks into the prols that nothing getting built, the pols have long since gone on to greener pastures. Early in the '70s, we are promised a candy store of new lines. Of them, only the Archer Avenue Line was built (two decades later) and the 63rd Street to Queens (two-three decades later).
10/10/99
When you look at the proposed Second Avenue subway at a distance it does look a little embarrassing that a line proposed since the 20's some seventy years later has not been built and there are arguments on how build it. It's more embarrassing to discontinue the Third and Second Avenue elevated lines and promise a replacement subway and for various reasons scuttle the project for decades!
Bill Newkirk
Does the contractor who did the Willie B also do tunnels?
I'm at a loss to understand why it would take 10+ years to do this 2nd ave line - I mean, wasn't the origional IRT done in 4? :)
And frankly, I wish they'd stop studing the damm thing and JUST DO IT. A subway line, ANY line (all the way) down 2nd ave is going to get heavy ridership. Who cares if it zigs a block here or there? Dust off the plans from the 70's and use them. Here's an idea - can't decide 2 track Vs 3 Vs 4? Build the tunnels as 4 track, finish them off as 2, and if you need the extra capacity, add the other two later. Creative minds could even figure a way out to make it so they could slap express stops wherever they want.
But just build the darn thing already. NYers *know* it's going to tear up the city for a while, we KNOW there's going to be an environmental impact, we KNOW it's going to cost money. WE DON'T CARE. Ask anyone - the vast majority of people WANT this. Heck, even the AAA wants - and we know how pro mass transit they are.
I mean, does someone have to hit Pataki and the MTA over the head a few times before they figure this out?
On a side note - why has the MTA suddenly gotten so hyper about an LIRR link up to GCT? Who's been calling for THAT?
IMHO, any governor candidate that promises a full 2nd ave line in 5 years, will win the NY area, hands down.
Any idea of the total costs and more importantly, any suggestions on how to pay for it?
[>>>>You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway. <<<
So what do *you* think will happen with 2nd Avenue?
Will they build the two track "stubway" between 125th and 63rd? This ignores Bronx riders and Lower East Side riders.
Will they build a four track trunk line between the Bronx and Brooklyn, which I think they should do? It would take private funding. Maybe Trump could help if he gets bored running for President
and he's between supermodels.
Or will they debate it for years, and finally punt when another recession comes?]
I hate saying this, but I'm afraid it'll be the "punt" option. It's been what, 70 years since the plan first came about? Just about the only way that words might get translated into action is if there's a big public outcry insisting on the line's completion. But I fear that too many people have fallen into the grin and bear it mode, and just keep jamming themselves onto the Lex. Which is really a shame, in that the Upper East Side has plenty of big shots who *could* get things accomplished if they tried.
Another reason why there may never be a Second Avenue line has to do with the nature of cities. It's been predicted that the "decentralization" of the economy, prompted in particular by computers and telecommunications, will make cities (including of course NYC) less important. Under this theory, most businesses will be able to locate just about anywhere and therefore will leave cities on account of higher urban costs. There'd be no need to build the Second Avenue subway because there'd be no demand for one.
Now, it's important to note that this "decentralization" hasn't actually happened to anywhere near the extent predicted (the move of jobs to suburban office parks is old news by now), and indeed may never happen. I'm one of the people who believes that cities are in no danger of losing the economic importance. But it must be acknowledged that there is at least a possibility of this happening, and in that sense there's still risk factor as far as the Second Avenue line is concerned.
Leave it to the tree huggers. They'll keep too many of us from escaping NYC.
Another reason why there may never be a Second Avenue line has to do with the nature of cities. It's been predicted that the "decentralization" of the economy, prompted in particular by computers and telecommunications, will make cities (including of course NYC) less important. Under this theory, most businesses will be able to locate just about anywhere and therefore will leave cities on account of higher urban costs. There'd be no need to build the Second Avenue subway because there'd be no demand for one.
This was a popular theory about 5-10 years ago, but is quickly becoming disproved as more and more cities find themselves in the midst of a renaissance of sorts, due in large part to the influx of newer high-tech companies.
Contrary to what the "experts" predicted, the booming high-tech industries seem to be having the effect of actually strengthening the cities. Many of the new Internet-related startup companies are small firms that do not have the resources to build their own suburban campus, but can easily lease space in an exisiting downtown office building. There are technical advantages to being in a centralized hub where infrastructure and communications converge. Also, and more importantly, the younger owners and workers of these high-tech firms are realizing the cultural advantages of being located at the nexus of creative energy that great cities have to offer. These are things that will never be replaced by a suburban office park, and people are just now beginning to appreciate that fact.
The anti-urban mindset that has prevailed over the last half of this century appears to be coming to an end, and hopefully will soon be looked upon as just a brief abberation compared to the thousands of years in which cities have served as the focal points of human civilization.
Reccommended reading: "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" by Jane Jacobs, and "City: Rediscovering the Center" by William H. Whyte.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[re decline of cities and dispersal of jobs]
[This was a popular theory about 5-10 years ago, but is quickly becoming disproved as more and more cities find themselves in the midst of a renaissance of sorts, due in large part to the influx of newer high-tech companies.
Contrary to what the "experts" predicted, the booming high-tech
industries seem to be having the effect of actually strengthening the
cities. Many of the new Internet-related startup companies are small
firms that do not have the resources to build their own suburban campus, but can easily lease space in an exisiting downtown office building.]
I agree with you; as best I can tell, the main proponents of the "cities will decline" theory are anti-urban types who bascially are trying to create sekf-fulfilling prophecies. There indeed does seem to have been a reversal in urban fortunes in the past ten years or so. It might have come about when people started realizing that life in the suburbs is not perfect and indeed can bring with it some of the same problems encountered in cities.
Even so, we should recognize that there *is* a chance, however small, that cities will decline as time goes on, thereby lessening the need for transit. It's unlikely to happen, but that doesn't mean that it never will.
There are technical advantages to being in a centralized hub where
infrastructure and communications converge. Also, and more importantly,
the younger owners and workers of these high-tech firms are realizing
the cultural advantages of being located at the nexus of creative energy
that great cities have to offer. These are things that will never be
replaced by a suburban office park, and people are just now beginning to
appreciate that fact.
The "comeback of cities" is based on supply and demand. There are more people around that appreciate the value of a neighborhood, and a dynamic environment. So there is more demand. At the same time, the supply of viable cities has shrunk, with so many no longer anything more than the poorest suburb in the region. So there is a shortage.
A rare confluence of positives (luck) is also playing a part in the so-called 're-birth' of cities. An unusually strong ecomomy, a few successful high profile mayors, positive national and international press and in New York's case a substantial reduction in crime. So in this little time period that we all in right now things look great for cities. Remove any two of the positive items noted above and the cycle of decline could resume. I'm skeptical, as we've seen this 're-birth' phenomena before, like in the booming 1980s.
Assuming its properly taken, the census will give an idea what is happening in New York City. Since both 1989-90 and 1999-00 will be good economic years, cyclical factors (whether or not a recession happens to be on) will be winnowed out. You'll be comparing peak to peak.
Note that the census asks about income in the prior year, so the income data is for 1989/1999. Interestingly, I just heard that nationally, median household income has just made it back to the level of 1989, just in time for the next census.
As for a confluence of positive factors, NYC, for one, has been flying into a demographic hurricane. For 50 years, middle-income families with children have left the city (lousy schools, crime, small number of owner occupied homes with 3+ bedrooms, etc). On the other hand, young single people, including the affluent and college educated, have moved in. As the baby boomers have reached child-raising age, with fewer young adults to replace them, the influx of college grads you saw in the late 1970s and 1980s has slowed. When the children of the baby boomers reach adulthood, however, lots of em will want to live here, and there are lots of them. In addition, we're seeing a backflow of older adults back into the city when the kids leave.
[As for a confluence of positive factors, NYC, for one, has been flying into a demographic hurricane. For 50 years, middle-income families with children have left the city (lousy schools, crime, small number of owner occupied homes with 3+ bedrooms, etc). On the other hand, young single people, including the affluent and college educated, have moved in. As the baby boomers have reached child-raising age, with fewer young adults to replace them, the influx of college grads you saw in the late 1970s and 1980s has slowed. When the children of the baby boomers reach adulthood, however, lots of em will want to live here, and there are lots of them. In addition, we're seeing a backflow of older adults back into the city when the kids leave.]
I keep hearing that families with children are leaving the city in droves ... but I dunno. I work at Fifth Avenue and 14th Street, an area with a large number of residences in addition to commercial uses. And children seem to be everywhere. Sometimes it seems like every other female at the Union Square Greenmarket is carrying a baby or small child, or at the very least has a stomach sticking out to here. Infants and toddlers being shepherded by nannies are a constant sight on the sidewalks. Yes, it could be that families are more likely to leave when the children turn school age, but I suspect the common stereotype needs a little rethinking.
(Are middle income families leaving the city in droves).
These days, more middle income families want to stay in the city. Crime, which used to drive people out, is down, and there is a growing appreciation of the benefits of city living.
But many can't without chaning their expectations. Middle income Americans expect to own a home, and to have a bedroom for each child. But only 30 percent of NYC's housing units have three or more bedrooms, compared with 60 percent nationally. If you are rich or get lucky you get one of those 30 percent -- those in Manhattan are rich, and I am lucky -- I bought my rowhouse in 1994. Otherwise, you are out of luck. I can't tell you how many friends have been priced out of Windsor Terrace and moved away reluctantly.
Schools are another issue. Unless you are willing to play the political game and get your kid into a "special" program, or can buy your way out, NYC schools are generally poor. We bought our way out, but we are Catholic, and Catholic schools are much cheaper than most other private schools.
The three-bedroom problem doesn't apply to empty nesters. A two-bedroom coop apartment will do fine. Schools are not an issue either. I expect the baby bommers AND their kids to come pushing into the city from the suburbs in the next economic upturn.
Higher and lower densities each have their advantages. Higher densities give you a community, services you can walk to, and transit. Lower densities give you green space. It seems that the most desirable areas are those that have some of the advantages of both -- city neighborhoods near parks, and older suburbs with a "main street" and a commuter rail stop.
The appeal of tract developments seems to go down once the buildings hit 50 years old. An official at the SI Chamber of Commerce once told me that he is more worried about the South Shore going downhill, once those 1980s buildings get old, than the North Shore. Sooner of later, the wave of wealth out of Manhattan will roll over the North Shore and turn it around. The main appeal of the South Shore is that it is new.
>>>>Otherwise, you are out of luck. I can't tell you how many friends have been priced out of Windsor Terrace and moved
away reluctantly. <<<
My friend Gerry, a Brooklynite his whole life, got married recently and they reluctantly had to move to Cold Spring Harbor to find a 6 room house at an affordable price. Gerry was in Park Slope since 1984 and would have gladly stayed. But he and many solid middle class citizens like him are being priced out.
I laugh at talk show hosts like Sean Hannity who believe that the market should drive housing costs. Without rent controls, NYC would become the residence of Trump, Perlman and the guy shaking the cup on the train shouting 'good evening ladies and gentlemen.'
[I laugh at talk show hosts like Sean Hannity who believe that the market should drive housing costs. Without rent controls, NYC would become the residence of Trump, Perlman and the guy shaking the cup on the train shouting 'good evening ladies and gentlemen.']
During his "poor," pre-comeback phase, when he was a hundred million dollars in debt, Donald Trump is supposed to have pointed to a skell and remarked that since the skell presumably owed nothing as well as owned nothing, he was a hundred million dollars richer than Trump himself.
[A rare confluence of positives (luck) is also playing a part in the so-called 're-birth' of cities. An unusually strong ecomomy, a few successful high profile mayors, positive national and international press and in New York's case a substantial reduction in crime. So in this little time period that we all in right now things look great for cities. Remove any two of the positive items noted above and the cycle of decline could resume. I'm skeptical, as we've seen this 're-birth' phenomena before, like in the booming 1980s.]
It's hard for me to comment about the 1980s in NYC because I wasn't working there at the time and didn't pay much attention to its affairs. But I do have some observations about Connecticut, where I was living and working and which, like NYC, went through a pronounced boom-and-bust cycle during the decade. One thing that was quite obvious only in hindsight (naturally!) was that Connecticut's boom was the proverbial mile wide and inch deep. While job numbers expanded at a dizzying rate, a disturbingly high percentage of the new jobs fed off the real estate boom - construction contractors, real estate agencies, mortgage lenders, and so on - and therefore went down the tubes once real estate cooled off. Most other sectors of the economy were growing slowly if at all. Manufacturing, long the mainstay of Connecticut's economy, actually declined during the boom years. And the real estate boom was far more fragile than anyone realized. Quality went completely out the window; people were getting into frenzied bidding wars for mediocre properties in mediocre areas. Builders were putting up houses and, especially, condominiums in poor locations with zero market appeal (had anyone looked at them dispassionately). In the commercial market, speculative building ran amok. It seemed like banks and other lenders would finance anything, no matter how hare-brained. It's not surprising that the real estate bubble burst, and without its support the rest of the economy couldn't hold on. The result was the Great Recession of (roughly) 1990 to 1993, one which people aren't likely to forget.
NYC today seems to be going through a sounder economic period. No one sector dominates the job market - contrary to popular belief, Wall Street is a relatively minor employer in percentage terms and isn't increasing much if at all. Inevitable weakness in one sector shouldn't pull down the whole economy. While real estate prices are increasing rapidly overall, not every location or type of property is sharing in the boom. This is good, as it shows there's an appreciation for quality. An excellent example of this can be seen just outside the city's borders. Average home prices have been declining in Nassau County, presumably because buyers are being scared off by the county's fiscal woes. In a true bubble, Nassau prices would keep rising in spite of these woes. Finally, and potentially most important, there is relatively little speculative building in the commercial real estate market (probably attributable to more cautious lenders).
As a result, I believe that NYC of the 1990s is more stable than Connecticut (and probably NYC, for that matter) of the late 1980s. Obviously this doesn't mean that there's zero risk of another bust. But I highly doubt one is just around the corner.
"Also, and more importantly, the younger owners and workers of these high-tech firms are realizing the cultural advantages of being located at the nexus of creative energy that great cities have to offer. These are things that will never be replaced by a suburban office park, and people are just now beginning to appreciate that fact."
I agree, but when USA Today did a cover story a few weeks ago on the Chicago City Council approving the plans for the world's tallest building, 7 South Dearborn (good location, but they gotta get a better name than just the address), they included some crap about really big skyscrapers not being built in the U.S. in the last couple of decades because skyscrapers represent a business culture that is the antithesis of the modern, young, high-tech entrepeneur. Also something to the effect of "after all, the biggest high-tech companies are locating in suburban campuses outside Seattle, not New York high-rises."
Yeah, that's why I pass two locations where new 60-70 story office towers are going to be built on my bus ride from Union Station to my office, and several smaller (15-30 story) office buildings have been built or are being built just west of Union and Northwestern Stations on land that was parking lots less than five years ago. That's why they opened the new Blue Cross offices on East Randolph less than a year ago and the owners are already applying to add twenty stories (the building was designed to have extra stories added). And that's just office development. If you add the stores being built on or just off the Mag Mile and the several Class C buildings being renovated to condos or a mix of condos and offices, it seems one of the biggest occupations in downtown Chicago now is construction.
Where does a rootless, pablum piece of fluff like USA Today (newsboxes made to resemble televisions, bah!) get off coming up with that kind of nonsense?
[... when USA Today did a cover story a few weeks ago on the Chicago City Council approving the plans for the world's tallest building, 7 South Dearborn (good location, but they gotta get a better name than just the address), they included some crap about really big skyscrapers not being built in the U.S. in the last couple of decades because skyscrapers represent a business culture that is the antithesis of the modern, young, high-tech entrepeneur. Also something to the effect of "after all, the biggest high-tech companies are locating in suburban campuses outside Seattle, not New York high-rises."]
What, you expected _accuracy_ out of USA Today??? Just because "McPaper" has colorful weather maps doesn't mean that it knows anything about news. I also got a chuckle out of the fact they mentioned "New York high-rises," as they have a pronounced and rather obvious anti-New York bias.
One interesting factoid: USA Today's headquarters is not in one of the suburban office campuses they extol. It's in a high-rise office building in Reston, Virginia, which is really a part of downtown Washington.
...and the building, along with a couple of others in Arlington, were the subjects of controversy when they were built, because they were taller than the Washington Monument, the first buildings in the downtown and adjecent areas to violate that unwritten rule.
If USA Today and Gannett don't like skyscrapers, they should move the corporate headquarters back to Rochester.
Decentralization via telecommunications is coming. It is still too early to tell how it will impact cities. But I think that the long-term effect will mean fewer people working in the cities over time. In NYC the New York Stock Exchange is debating it's very future in the face of electronic trading. Whatever they do will set the tone for the entire finance industry in the world. If they decide they don't need a huge physical prescence any more because telecom technology has made that obsolete, then there will be a lot of available office space in Manhattan over the next few years.
[Decentralization via telecommunications is coming. It is still too early to tell how it will impact cities. But I think that the
long-term effect will mean fewer people working in the cities over time. In NYC the New York Stock Exchange is debating it's very future in the face of electronic trading. Whatever they do will set the tone for the entire finance industry in the world. If they decide they don't need a huge physical prescence any more because telecom technology has made that obsolete, then there will be a lot of available office space in Manhattan over the next few years.]
Your example isn't quite on the mark. There's no debate over the NYSE's "very future," only over whether there's a need for a large traditional trading floor. It's possible, though far from certain, that the NYSE will end up recasting itself more along NASDAQ lines, with trades being executed electronically rather than on a trading floor. If that does come to pass, there's no reason to believe that the NYSE's space requirements or employment levels would be greatly affected. Sure, the floor traders might be gone, but despite their high visibility they're a minor presence in the grand scheme of things.
As far as the rest of the financial services industry is concerned, I also do not foresee any dramatic changes resulting from telecommunications. Bear Stearns and Morgan Stanley are building major facilities in Midtown. As large, sophisticated corporations, moreover ones answerable to shareholders, they would not be incurring these huge expenses without a great deal of planning and a recognition that indeed their office space and employment levels are likely to remain high. Chase Manhattan is looking for up to one million square feet of office space in Manhattan for expansion of its operations, even as it announced plans to relocate 3,500 mostly pink-collar jobs to other locations over the next few years.
What we might indeed see happening, presumably in other major cities as well as in New York, is a movement toward a higher-output workforce. That is, an increasing percentage of the jobs in urban locations will be ones at higher skill and pay levels. More and more of the lesser-skilled, low-value-added clerical jobs indeed will relocate, to cheaper parts of the country and increasingly to overseas locations. Because total numbers won't decline precipitously, the need for transit will remain strong. Indeed, to the extent that the city workforce is more affluent and presumably more influential, the demands for better transit service may become more difficult for governments to ignore.
Will a two track 2nd Avenue line really reduce over crowding on the 4,5, and 6? I think not. On top of that, the fact the line will not be on 2nd Avenue below 63rd Street. Besides that, what about the fact the line will go from west to east (lexington Avenue to 2nd Avenue) and then (2nd Avenue to Broadway) and again across town on Broadway? What a waste!
Before the line is built, we must proposal these things:
1) A four track system
2) Possible crosstown line that connects (4,5 and 6 (metro north/directly) via Lexington/Park Avs, 2 and 3 Lenox Avenue, A, B, C, and D via St. Nicholas Avenue and possibly the 1 via Broadway).
3) Proposed station at 120th Street/2nd Avenue that will split north from 125th Street to the Bronx or Crosstown (125th Street) Manhattan.
4) Express Stops should be created After Lex/Park Southbound: 125th Lex/Park - 99th Street - Broadway 57th Street.
5) Local stops should be Broadway - St. Nicholas Avenue - Lenox Avenue - Park/Lex Avs (direct connections with metro north/4-5-6) - 120th Street - 110 Street - 99th Street - 91st Street - 84th Street -79th Street - 72nd Street - 65th Street - Lexington Avenue (connection with the B) and Broadway 57th Street.
otherwise, I deem this project as useless.
It stinks being a young train buff. I missed all the good stuff.
I thought the same thing, born in 1946. I joined the ERA young (1958), just in time to meet all the older railfans who were then scrambling around to cover trolley lines before they all passed out of existence.
Look at the bright side. Unlike 1958, when rail transit was in a steep decline, services are now expanding. You'll be seeing new things after I'm just a memory.
You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway.
I went up to the Shoreline Trolley Museum today for the Autumn in New York event. The rain stopped nice and early and it turned out to be a beautiful day. Sub-talk was well represented,besides myself there were Jeff H,Stef,Lou,Doug,Howard Fine,Mark Feinman and Mark W. There might have been others I didn't get a chance to meet.
Stef operated R-17 6688 and Jeff H ran BMT PCC 1001. Rapid transit cars in use were IRT Lo-V 5466, BRT BU Motor 1227, IND R-9 1689 and the R-17. Streetcars in service were in addition to 1001, Third Avenue Railway 629 and BRT 4573. There were numerous runs but the best was saved for last when IRT 5466 made a run followed by R-9 1689 and last but not least Bklyn PCC 1001.
It was pleasure to meet many of the fine people who post on sub-talk. There was much good conversation about all sorts of rail topics including one gentlemen (a non subtalker) who was quite knowledgeable about unused tunnels in New York City of which I'll post some info tomorrow.
It was well worth the long trip from Beacon NY and if you have a chance to go on Sunday you won't be disappointed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbird,
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I hope to meet you again. Only one minor note: I wasn't the regular operator of 6688, although I did get a crack at it (ALL SMILES NOW). The car's a great performer, especially when I'm behind the controller.
Regards,
Stef
I wish I could have been there to see it. I was invited to a wedding tomorrow and had to spend the day working. Maybe in June.
I wish I could have been there too. New York Days have coincided with Members Day weekend up at Seashore the past few years, so I have had to be there....As David said...maybe in June...
Stef: 6688 is in great shape thanks to the hard work of yourself and others, of course the fact that she is in the Redbird paint scheme might influence me a bit. (Just kidding) By checking my records I find that the last time I rode her was twelve years ago on March 3,1987 on the 42 Street Shuttle. It was nice to see an old friend after such a long time. Thanks to you and the others at Branford for making it such a nice day.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes it was a good day. Very nice meeting the people who post responses in sub talk.
Hi, Larry.
It was good to meet you, Mark Feinman, Jeff, Steve and Mark W. I rode up with Thurston and Stef. And it was great to see Lou from Brooklyn, (w/his family) and Howard Fein (sporting an in-joke Three Stooges T-shirt).
We had a great and fruitful day. Arriving early, Thurston, Stef and I assisted with the museum crew. Stef went to help on readying the R-17 (his baby) while Thurston and I ended up coming to the rescue on the H&M car which had a hole in the hole in the air-pressure line. Thurston managed to wrestle the piping free and was able to cap the end off so the car was able to proceed out of the barn.
As the day progressed, the time came for the R-9 to come out of the barn. It was a thing of beauty -- near mint condition and looking like it came out of the ACF plant only weeks ago. As it turned out, Jeff and Lou had alittle trouble with the electrical systems. I was of course near at hand taking pictures and was more than happy to lend a hand when Jeff asked me to aide in the removal of a resister-box cover on the undercarriage. Not long after, Lou and Jeff got the car in service and by midday she was running up and the down the route with no trouble.
I was just glad the weather held out since the morning hours were overcast and threatening.
Another treat was seeing the ex-Brooklyn PCC that had -- among other things -- ran over genuine SBK tracks back in the 50's.
In short, the Branford "New York City Days" event was an enjoyable day, one that I would like to see more than just a couple of weekends out of the year.
BTW, that non-SubTalker with those "lost tunnels" stories should start posting here. He had some interesting first-hand info on stations/tunnels that are pretty much forgotten and/or unknown to the public. To investigate some of what he described would be an intriguing idea. Any plans to take a look?
Doug and his R9, he even rode it on the move to the barn >G<...
I had a great time Saturday with it all. This was my second October New York Days, I wish I could make them in June (busy month at work)...
Lot of little problems that Jeff H and crew jumped on, it was a real pleasure they got the PCC running. There was even an operator from the Newark subay there (rode the R9) I wonder if he made the PCC trip.
Great Job!!
I'm glad you and Thurston had a blast, considering the R9, Lo-V, and the H & M car didn't want to cooperate on this day. Fortunately, the heroes of the day, the mechanics (Jeff and Steve) saved the day. Of course, you and Mr. Thurston assisted which made things go that much more smoothly. What a day! I couldn't complain, as I went down the line with my baby (well, it is actually Lou's long before I laid eyes on it).
The day became extra special when I took control of the car. Brake handle in hand, and put that and the reverse key into place, off I went back to the yard. Yes!!! There is a God, and I have just accomplished my lifelong dream of operating a SMEE. I just love playing with full size trains, although the HO Scale is ok to fit into your basement.
My bum knee, was probably the only thing I had to worry about. For those who don't know, I hurt my knee trying to turn the trolley pole on 6688 around with a rod that had a hook on it. I got it alright, but I went too far back and fell off the platform at the Short Beach end of the line and landed on my knee. Sunday, I rested and my knee, healed rather quickly. I'm not limping anymore.
Anyway to wrap things up, everything went well. Now it's back to work on my favorite car.
Take Care and See You Soon,
Stef
Yeah, I was wondering if you were going to make it back up on Sunday, as your limping looked pretty severe. I hope you'll make a full recovery ASAP.
By late afternoon I got a chance to run the 17. She's so smooth, even on the curves by the bridge on the way to Short Beach. I got used to the brake and power controls rather easily. But of course the Redbird is alot easier to control than the R-9 -- which was the car I REALLY would have enjoyed running except I didn't say anything until she was back in the barn. :-( (there's always next time).
Hey, Stef, maybe when you're not working on restoring the Redbird at Brandford, you can give me a hand on painting and detailing my HO scale R-22 ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
You bet! Let's get a yard of SMEE's together on an HO scale layout of the NYC transit system... Wait, can anyone do an HO miniature version of the NYCT? It would probably take up more than one room!
-Stef
I must apologize for also looking messy. I didn't really get under any subway car, but I was having a pizza party, and got dirty in the process. Hehehe.
-Stef
Ohh??
Someone told me (was it you Doug) it was a new type battery fluid for the PCC or somthing to the effect. It was pizza???
No, no. Doug was right. I wish I knew what was happening or I would have assisted the Branford Crew (if possible) on the PCC.
-Stef
Well, maybe the Franklin Shuttle in HO would fit into my apartment, but not much else :-)
On second thought, the SBK's current non-subway running rights would probably fit in my closet! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Never mind HO. You'd have to go down to Z scale if you wanted to fit the entire subway system in one room. On the flip side, Z scale speeds would approach R-10 proportions.
Actually, that was a HONEYMOONERS T-shirt, which is transit-related only in that Ralph was a bus driver. I would've worn my Mets T-shirt but it was in the wash. Turns out they didn't need my help anyway.
Yes, it was a great experience riding the old equipment and meeting up with cyber-friends again. I was impressed with how well preserved the old cars were, especially 1689. A lot of time and elbow grease must have gone into them.
I loved hearing the classic R-9 accelerating rumble and groan again. It even had delays due to power problems, just like the old days. The speed of 6688 (or as much speed as it could muster on Shore Line's right-of-way) reminded me of how fast the R-17s could take that Lex Express. I'm not of age for the other cars featured, which made riding them that much more interesting. The IRT lo-voltage had a tendency to screech a lot even on mild curves. I don't know it that's the nature of the beast, its age or the rails. Either way, it must have been ear-piercing on the South Ferry loop.
Judging from the turnout, there's a lot more of us rail fanatics that one would suspect. Here's to more fan trips before winter sets in!
I'm envious!!! Sorry I couldn't be there - Maybe next year.
However, as others were having the time of their life at Branford, those of us at BSM were enjoying a typical Sunday, until Peter Witt 6119, working as block 2501, left for a trip at 4:15.
About 4:20 the Dispatcher received a call that the car had failed to take power just north of the Shop. While a rescue car was sent to get the passengers, Ray Cannon and myself were readying car 1164 (12 Bench Open, Brill 1902) ready for a possible "Drag Job".
If anyone is wondering why we would use an open as a tow car, 1164 has a 1 1/2" steel plate frame. As it is a hand brake car, finer towing control is wanted.
The Motorman on 6119 had already tried changing the control fuse, to no avail. So, we coupled up, drained the air on the Witt, and headed to the Car House. A quick run-around at North Avenue (to get 1164 in front, pushing.) By 5:10 6119 was on the Shop track, 1164 was put away, and we prepared to go home. Ray commented "How come this stuff always happens at 4:30 on a Sunday?".
Ray commented "How come this stuff always happens at 4:30 on a
Sunday?".
Well Dan, I'm sure I can top that! At 7PM on Sunday night
the operator (who shall remain nameless because he isn't a
SubTalk poster and can't defend himself) who was putting the
R-9 back into the barn ran into a problem. The trolley downlead
from the roof to the main knife switch, which on this car
has "temporarily" run down the side of the car body for 20 years,
got snagged on the door hook. The side of the car acted like a
knife edge, pierced the insulation, and grounded out the cable.
This required A) re-insulating the cable B) climbing on to the
roof of the car to re-attach it to the pole base and C) walking
back to the substation to reset the quick-action circuit breaker.
Can't take power on a Witt? How about the rear door interlock?
Really don't know. This is one for the Shop guys to figger out. The operator related that the control switch fuse blew, so it may be one of the white metal castings that hold the contacts in the Group Switch has failed. (after 69 years, white metal gets a little brittle.) The shop does have a new model holder prepared and several are already in service.
Now that you mention it...
I remember Eddie telling me about that temporary power lead back in 1980. It was supposed to be threaded between the inner and outer body panels, or something to that effect. He even said something about putting a second trolley pole on the other car end eventually.
What were 1689's signs set to last weekend? Were the side destination signs lit up? Eddie told me everything about how the lights were disabled when the R-7s and R-9s went over to the Eastern Division, and that it was a simple matter of reinstalling a fuse and screwing in new light bulbs in the sign boxes. He had it all fixed up and working, and even showed me the key switch in the cab to change the illumination from upper to lower destination signs. Add to that, he also pointed out that the Eastern Division roller curtains did not have cutouts to permit light bulb installation, since the light bulbs were removed, whereas the original IND curtains did. I have examples of both, and that's a fact.
I know that 1689 has signs for early IND terminals which later became through stations. I've seen Jay St.-Boro Hall, as well as E/8th Ave-Houston route signs.
What were 1689's signs set to last weekend?
Front signs A / Rockaway Park and D / Kings Highway. (The guy who usually operates the D-types, TOny, *insisted" that the train be labeled a "D" and it wok quite a while for him to crank the end sign!)
Side signs - I didn't catch 'em.
--Mark
Dan, I enjoyed your post and look forward to hearing more about doings in Baltimore ! Do you have any subway or interurbans ?
Mr t__:^)
Baltimore has a subway, Light Rail and the MARC commuter rail (which also goes to D.C.).
This is Bell Boulevard
The next stop on this 7 train will be Douglaston Parkway.
And they ALL use that funny narrow guage!!!
I think Thurston was looking @ the Historical side of collecting, as Baltimore was famed (in rail circles) as the home of the famed Washington, Baltimore and Annapolis Electric Railroad (The WB&A). It died in 1935, some of the equipment went to the Baltimore & Annapolis, which continued running the (South Shore) line to Annapolis until 1950.
MARC is narrow guage? Doesn't it run with Amtrak?
Sorry for repeating the same announcement twice, I make it up to you.
This is 57 Street
The next stop on the L train will be 64 Street
This is 64 Street
The next and last stop on this L train will be 72 Street, where you will be able to transfer to the 1, 2, 3 and 9 trains.
10/17/99
MARC , Maryland Area Rail Commuter , of course uses standard gauge. If you want to get into track gauges , Baltimore used a track gauge slightly wider than Philadelphia (5' 2" Pennsylvania broad gauge). I think Baltimore holds the record , if not correct me please.
Bill Newkirk
OK, I know that Toronto also uses wide guage, what is it? (is it in even metric?). Also, are there any problems that would preclude interoprability between the Red and Orange line in Boston, or using Blue line cars on the other lines (but not Green!) or running Red and Orange cars on the Blue as far as Maverick?
This is 177 Street-Parkchester, change for Q LOCAL trains.
The next stop on this Q EXPRESS train will be Pelham Bay Park.
Toronto's streetcars run on 4'10 7/8" gauge track. Baltimore used a gauge of 5'4 1/2".
It was a GREAT day!!!! I love riding the 96 year old 1227. It was nice to meet all SubTalkers who were there. For those who didn't meet me, I was the one with the orange saftey vest. I got some handle time on the R-17 and R-9. The best part of the day was to run Brooklyn PCC 1001. Next year I'm taking operator classes up there.........Mark W.
(Next meet- Croton open house (Saturday) Who is going????)
I am still smiling from the fun I had WORKING on the RxR for about 12 hours Saturday. As Doug said, we had to get dirty early to get H & M 503 moved out so Jeff & Steve K could get the rest of the NYC fleet out of the barns. I actually got in her as well as under her this weekend :-) After the equip. was out, I became a customer for a while. I enjoyed the rides & conversations with a dozen or so SubTalkers. Later MOW Bill was moving the Crane car W-3 by some ties. Doug & I were happy to help as he tied up the RxR for a short while moving 9, 13 & 14 foot ties on & off W-3 so he could do some replacements on Sunday.
PCC had a little problem. One of the regulars was using a turkey baster to take clear liquid out of an old milk jug & transfer it to the battery. A boy was watching this most intensely. I asked the crew member "Are you replacing the Hydrogen Hydroxide ?". He replyed right away "why yes !". With puzzeled looked the boy thought for a moment, then remembered some of his schooling & said "Isn't that water ?". The crew member promply raised the turkey baster & squirted some into his mouth, then turned & smiled at both of us.
Later that afternoon I treated some customers a little better. A group was warndering around in the back of the barns & wanted to enter, but saw a chain warning them to keep out. I lowered the chain & gave them a impromptu tour. I cautioned them to stay off the greasy ties & watch out for sharp edges & rusty items. I saw a small boy coming out of a car & scolded him for going in the car, then I saw his father & new member Mark Feinman, "Oh Hi Mark" I said. They asked a lot of questions which I couldn't answer. I appologized for this at the end, but they seemed very appreciated for being able to get inside the barn.
I didn't get any "pull time" this week-end even though I hung around after hours. I don't mind because I know I'll get another chance at it & was happy to watch those new members and visitors who did.
BTW, there was three guys in from Ill. shopping for a slightly used Redbird (they had already been to Coney Island about it). Also I think this guy's name was Bill, got some time in the PCC seat. He said he was from the Newark City Subway shop.
At the very end of the day I was helping Jeff H & Steve K get the PCC backed into the barn in the dark & just missed the last R-17 ride with Lou S as the pilot. That must have been a real TRIP rolling along through the night !
P.S. I counted eleven cars I rode or boarded this weekend with only the W-3 Crane being a out-of-towner (of course I rode the W-3 !).
Mr t__:^)
Later that afternoon I treated some customers a little better. A group was warndering around in the back of the barns & wanted to enter, but saw a chain warning them to keep out. I lowered the chain & gave them a impromptu tour. I cautioned them to stay off the greasy ties & watch out for sharp edges & rusty items. I saw a small boy coming out of a car & scolded him for going in the car, then I saw his father Mark Feinman, "Oh Hi Mark" I said. They asked a lot of questions which I couldn't answer. I appologized for this at the end, but they seemed very appreciated for being able to get inside the barn.
You shoulda seen the look on their faces when I stepped off that car after Matthew got off! Them railfans, they never listen :) :)
--Mark
So, Larry, you're from Beacon, eh? How's the bridge? I haven't been across it since heading west for Colorado 19 years ago. At the time, it was being twin-spanned.
Glad to hear 1689 was looking and running great. How were its doors? Maybe someday the New York Days will take place when I'm in the neighborhood.
Steve: Actually I'm from NYC but we moved to Beacon about twelve years ago. I rode the trains to NY for ten years when I worked at Grand Central Terminal. The bridges are okay. The original north bridge was closed and rebuilt after the south one was openned. Today the north span has three lanes and is used by westbound traffic while the south span has four lanes plus a sidewalk and is used by eastbound traffic.Unfortunately the bridge manages to bypass both its namesake cities,Newburgh and Beacon, something the ferry never did.
1689 looked in very good condition though I didn't notice the doors specifically. She is very big though for a trolley museum. The Branford folks can correct me but I thing the only bigger cars in the collection are the AB and the ME-1.
I only regret not being able to ride the High-V but she was sidelined due to a mechanical problem.
Do you plan on being in NY anytime soon? If so please e-mail me.
Larry,Redbirdr33
R-9 1689 is the biggest that comes out to play right now, althought H&M 503 comes close. Steve you were right there in our thoughts as R-9 went down the line (literally).
Mr t__:^)
Anyone know if the subway cars operate on regular days, besides the special weekends? I went in August (the 27th according to my EZ Pass statement) and although I thoroughly enjoyed the visit I never got to see the R9 and some of the other subway cars as they were locked in their barns. I was able to see the R17 and of course the 2 outside cars, the Standard and the SIRT next to it. (I think it was a SIRT) But I really wanted to ride 1689 and couldn't make it up this weekend.
The Subway cars don't come out on regular basis, one reason is that their are only a handfull of qualified operators.
However, if you want to see a particular car all you have to do is ask. What probally will happen is that once your tour group gets back on the next trolley the Conductor working the yard will walk you over to the barn & open it for you. If he/she doesn't know where the car is he/she might have to find out first.
Let me suggest that you announce your intention here or directly to WWW.BERA.ORG. Most weekends there are extra staff getting dirty who I'm sure wouldn't mind taking a break to help you.
Mr t, a BERA member and occasional helper.
Thank You!!
Other big guys include BMT standard 2775, SIRT 388, and North Shore interurban 709.
1689's doors were functional back in 1980, but one leaf was sticking at one of the car ends. Eddie knew what the problem was. I was opening and closing them to my heart's content that day while Eddie was busy with something or other in the car. He had the fans on, too.
I will be in the city during the week of Oct. 25 and am planning to attend the Stillwell Ave. terminal tour on the 27th.
It's getting closer ...
GO YANKEES!
Go Mets
The Mets have a long way to go. Eventhough any team can beat another team anytime by virtue of great defense, clutch hitting, good pitching, and a little luck, the Mets have proven time and time again they can't beat the Braves. Are the Mets ready to turn the tide now? I would love to see a subway series, I don't think it will happen in 1999. Sorry guys, but the Braves can get their brooms ready for a sweep.
IT PAYBACK TIME!!!! LETS GO METS & THEY GOING ALL THE WAY.
PEACE OUT
MEANEY
You sound like a Yankee fan to me! If the Braves should defeat the Mets, I'll go with the Braves to win it all, especially if they play the Yankees. I can see it now, John Rocker strikes out Jeter, Williams,and O'neil to win game four and the championship in that dump in the Bronx! This is all subject to N.Y defeating Cleveland(presumably other ALCS team). Cleveland will be no easy task. I think Yankee fans have forgotten they have another round to play before the World Series.
I've got my tomahawk at the ready ... Go Braves!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Go Yankees, the tomahawk will be used by the Yanks to get rid of all their attackers. I smell a 25th World Series victory coming to NY Yanks.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx a NY Yankee fan since 1957.
Ooo..you must remember taking a Low-V to the games..(or R units...)(TRYING to get this back on topic!!)
Well Mets / Braves would be MARTA / NYCTA???
Hate to tell you this, but Braves fans dont use MARTA to get to games...The n/s line actually VEERS AWAY from where Turner Field is (and Atlanta-Fulton Co was...), The best a non-driver can do is take a shuttle from the Five Points station downtown..about an extra 10-15 minutes...As has been said here before, Atlanta has tried to be NYC,but has ended up more like LA...
Lou from Middletown NY, yes i do remember the Low-V to Yankee Stadium. I am 42 years old going on 43 in November. I took the D or C train to 161st. I remember the overhead fans, wicker seats and the conductor having to stand up between the cars in all kind of weather. I think they were the R-100's if i am not mistaken.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
I think you mean R-9s. I remember them on the D line back as far as the early 60s.
True. But the Lo-Vs also had external door controls. Not to mention metal plates for route and destinations while the R-1/9s had cloth roller curtains as well as signs on the bulkheads, something I noticed right away when the subway was still new to me.
We are one step closer to a Subway Series, which IMHO would be terrific (with a nod to Tom Seaver). As for the Mets, keep in mind that in 1988, they took 10 out of 11 from the Dodgers during the regular season, then blew it in the playoffs. Mike Soscia's (sp) ninth-inning home run off Doc Gooden in Game 4 was the turning point, as the Mets would have taken a 3-1 NLCS lead had they won that game. Let's hope they can do to the Braves what the Dodgers did to them 11 years ago. Wouldn't it be something - the Met Miracle revisited 30 years later. Deja vu all over again.
yeh but they are down2-0
To which I say, until next April, we're still the champions of college basketball!
The Diamondbacks totally dominated the Mets during this season, yet look what happened in the post-season. So yes, they can beat the Braves.
So right Chris..Im a YANKEE fan, and even I know that, as the Daily News said this morning: "goofy things happen in Shea this time of year... Just ask Earl Weaver or Pete Rose..or Bill Buckner.....
Or Tony Womack ...
All Pete Rose did was get into a fight with Bud Harrelson in the 1973 NLCS. I remember thinking at the time, hey Rose, what's the idea, going after Harrelson? Go pick on someone your own size! Then he nearly got hit with a whiskey bottle out in left field. That's something I would never condone.
The Mets in seven. The Braves have an invincible aura about them--until October comes and they play in the NLCS and the World Series. For all the great Brave teams, they have won only one World Series since 1991.
The Mets are coming off a very emotional series with yet another incredible comeback (the Mets do this once a decade, don't they?) This could be the Mets' year.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I caught the end of a story on ABC a couple of days ago about the MTA having some sort of test (TO, conductor, not sure) which had a filing deadline at the end of this month for a January test. Anyone have more information on this?
There is an open competive test for train operator. I imagine you can get info in the lobby at 370 Jay St., or pick up "The Chief", the Civil Service Newspaper with the red printed name on the top at you local newsstand. They should have the information you are looking for,
10/10/99
This was discussed on an earlier post,but since the Croton Harmon open house is this Saturday,the 16th I would like to hear from anyone who parked at the station lot at last years open house. If I excercise the option to travel by car,where would I park? There is permit parking areas reserved for commuters and they do give tickets on weekends. Some spaces will be sacrificed for shuttle buses too. Is there any parking in this lot or nearby if you aren't a resident with a permit?
Bill Newkirk
You are able to park in a regular parking spot in the lot. Most, if not all rules are suspended for the event. If questionable, there are plenty of people in charge to ask. Three years ago, I was able to drive over the bridge, and park in the employees parking lot. Two years ago, they made us take the shuttle bus, & would you believe the driver got lost and drove us into Croton Point Park. A 5 minute ride, turned into 20 minutes.Last year, there was not an open house.
Everyone have a good time & enjoy.
I called Metro-North the other week (on the thursday nkight of Floyd at 3am no less!!). They *promise* that there's an open house this year, ad that last year was just a fluke because of the GCT opening thing..
There web site has the info on the open house saturday. They say to park at the Croton-Harmon Train Station parking lot with free shuttle buses to the shops. I'll be on the 8:54a (8813) Express to Croton.
See:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr/html/getaways.htm#It's Back- Harmon Shop
Or if no one tells:
It's Baaaaack... The Harmon Shop Open House Saturday, October 16
(10am to 3PM)
else can you tour our largest repair facility, see our latest equipment, sit in the cab of a Genesis locomotive, and enjoy a breathtaking fall foliage ride up the Hudson Valley--all for free! You'll also be able to purchase food and drink (all those free activities tend to make you hungry).
Getting to the shop is easy--take Metro-North's Hudson Line to Croton-Harmon Station, and follow the signs to the free shuttle buses. Call (800) METRO-INFO for train times; in New York City, call (212) 532-4900.
If you are planning on driving--you can park at the station for free--follow these directions:
From New York City, take the New York State Thruway to Exit 9, Tarrytown. Go left onto Route 119 for about one-fifth of a mile. Turn right onto Route 9 and continue North for 14 miles. After crossing the Croton River Bridge, take the first exit, which is Croton Point Avenue. Follow signs to the parking lot.
From Stamford and White Plains, take Interstate 287 to the New York State Thruway entrance at Elmsford, and follow the directions above.
See you there for a great day of family fun.
What's new at the MVM WORLD?
This will be the LAST update of the site on Crosswinds, it will move to Earthlink. Crosswinds sucks.
Updated MVM tutorial, part of the new FEATURES section.
MRM description added to the features section.
Two new stations added to the bottom of the list, I'm still looking for date data for the last group.
Please visit today.
Updates have been made and therefore, MVM World has moved to: http://home.earthlink.net/~onlyjoex. Now we have some new data and the FIRST non subway MVMs. Also, I have combined all the route data from the two SI Ferry stations and the 5 Dyre Line stations into one cell. Check it out and tell me what you think.
What is your favorite post of all time on SubTalk? My three favorites are:
3. What route will get the R142?
2. Future Manhattan Bridge closure diversions..........
1. Future routing for the 63St tunnel connector.........
3TM
My favorite post are all the one's that relate to the subway and buses only.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
My favorite is a very old one:Should the city buy out the IRT & BMT and merge them with its own IND lines?
Was that before or after the posts debating should the Canarsie line be a subway or el between Montrose and Broadway-East NY??
It was a little bit after the thread on the IRT's pruchase of the Manhattan Elevated Railway's lines.
Gee, it's kind of hard to choose between them. I know I'm going to be labeled as conceited ( as well as a much deserved label of being crazy ) , but I think any one of my posts over the last 2 months rank pretty high in my mind.
[What is your favorite post of all time on SubTalk? My three favorites are:
3. What route will get the R142?
2. Future Manhattan Bridge closure diversions..........
1. Future routing for the 63St tunnel connector.........]
Well, I know that few people will agree with me, but I liked "Racist Train Operator." It provoked a great deal of interesting discussion.
But this is a transit forum...
I also like the posts that deal with the less technical and more "experiences of the subway."
And I LOVE the ones from transit workers that describe their job. I envy them!
BWB
I liked the long list of rail transit lines and extensions opened in the 1990s (none here), and the long list of cities with rail connections between their airports and their central business districts. Though a bunch of railfans cannot be considered an "authority," I have used this information in memos and reports. Everyone should just keep hammering at this.
TUNNEL TO STATEN ISLAND, just south of Whitehall street, there are two tubes that are filled in. This HAS TO BE where they started to build the tunnel to Staten Island!!! HAS TO HAS TO HAS TO!! WawAWAWAWAAwawa
NO! No tunnel from Manhattan to Staten Island was ever seriously proposed.
I am no historian. And I suppose the truth of your statement depends on what you mean by "seriously".
But I remember the cut-out that Lou mentioned. And I was under the impression that the resemblance of the Staten Island cars to the Standards was in some way related to the possibility of a connection between the two.
The only serious proposal, AFAIK, was for the connection between Brooklyn and Staten Island. The cars were similar, yes, but IIRC they were incompatible (different braking, etc.) so the similarity wasn't for that reason.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would it be pure speculation that the reason that the SIRT cars were 'similar' to the Standards, is because the Standards were the State of the Art of rapid transit at that time? Does anyone know who designed the SIRT cars? Stillwell perhaps? That could also explain it too....
There was serious intent to link SIRT with the BMT in Brooklyn, which is why SIRT purchased cars similar to the AB standards. It wasn't until a car shortage in the early 50s where some SIRT equipment was transfered to the BMT that it was realized that they were incompatible with the ABs.
--Mark
In no particular order, they would have to include:
Wayne/Mr. Slant R-40's account of his adventure on an R-6/R-7 F train on a broiling hot day in September 1973. I still say you had to be there.
Collisions involving BMT standards. Not just with other cars, but stations as well. In nearly every case, they came away with nothing more than a few scrapes and bruises. Case in point: the photo of 2778 in Subway Cars of the BMT.
Subway car drag races and speculation as to which car would win.
There was another one which at least deserves honorable mention:
The Subway menu with entrees named after different cars.
In the NY Post, Sunday October 10, page 8, are 2 articles. Article 1 is a report on how a powerful new high-tech machines could drill a Second Ave. tunnel faster and with fewer disruptions to the East Side neighborhoods than equipment used in preliminary digging during the 1970's, construction experts say.
Article 2 is about East Side merchants fear they''ll get the shaft.
After the good people of SubTalk read the 2 articles, your most excellent thoughts are welcome, as always.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
The Post online edition has this article. The URL was corrupt this weekend, but it now links correctly.
http://www.nypost.com/101099/news/9874.htm
The London UndergrounD has used this method successfully for years; the only impact on the neighborhoods is where the access shafts are sited and at the areas with station construction/connections. Minimal other impact along the route.
The added cost of deep boring has to be balanced with the cost of shoring up the street and utilities during construction, plus the untold losses the neighorhood and its businesses would suffer during construction (which in NYC seems to take *years* - lots of them)!
And today the same reporter said what he should have said yesterday: the whole line won't be built by Tunnel Boring Machine because it can't be! Station areas can't be bored by TBM; they have to be dug. Not only that, but only certain kinds of materials can be bored by TBM; soft stuff like clay and dirt can't, if I remember right.
David
I remember when the Red Line up Connecticut Ave. was being built back in the late 70s and early 80s. They used tunnel boring, so the street was untouched in some areas, but where the UDC, Cleveland Park and Woodley Road stations were to be located, it was open cut with wooden planks, including the parking area of a strip mall at Clevland Park.
Plus a deep bore tunnel, if extended below 63rd St., would have to work around the E/F and 7 tunnels at 53rd and 42nd Sts, or move closer to the surface.
In those instances, a 2nd Ave. tunnel could probably fit above the 53rd St. and Steinway tunnels, since they're both fairly deep at that point. The 60th St. tunnel may be another issue, depending on the relative depth of the 63rd St. tunnel.
Yup, these boring machines don't do well in loose, sandy soil.
Guess what the soil conditions are south of 42 street
Saw quite an unusual sight on Saturday Oct 9 - northbound B trains were routed onto the N express track from Coney Island to 59th/4th Ave. So the trains ran expresss from C.I. to 59th. When I was taking photos at New Utrecht Ave. on the N, it was quite surprising to see a B rush through on the express track.
Are you going to put the pictures up online?
Yes, that is unusual -- usually it's the other way around -- the N running on the B/West End!
Get those B trains off my line.
Unless, of course, they're running slant R-40s. Now, THAT'S an express run! If they're R-68s, I agree with you.
You mean get them off MY line-----ok, get them off our line.
10/10/99
Is this the last weekend of this G.O. or is it still in effect? I haven't found time to ride or photograph this.
Bill Newkirk
Bill. I was on the N today. There was a service notice indicating that N's would run express 59th to Coney Island during the week during the daytime in one direction and during the nighttime in the other direction. This seemed to be in effect from 10-11 to I think 10-14. But it was only during the week.
Which means I'm going to miss out on this golden opportunity.
Ooohhhhhhh noooooooooo....
Since I'm in California, I'll miss out on it too, but at least I know my Sea Beach is running express again, albeit only at certain times. It's a start.
Too bad the B's being serviced with R-68s. It would make a great ride with an R-40 slant.
--Mark
Not with the new signalling system, which limits the speed of any train running on the rehabbed SeaBeach express track.
10/12/99
I was on the rehabbed and resignaled Sea Beach Exp. tracks yesterday. The (N) ran from Stillwell Ave to 59th St. EXPRESS due to "track work". The running time from 86th St. to 8th ave. was 9 minutes. I don't know how a LOCAL would have ran , I've never clocked one.
Bill Newkirk
Going express from 59th to CI took me 16 minutes, so perhaps going to Manhattan is faster. It would avoid having to switch tracks just north of Kings Hwy.
Then again, both trips were on an R68 for me, which I should have factored in.
BTW, it takes 20 minutes to get to CI from 59th going local.
10/12/99
The 9 minutes I timed this train was 86th St to 8th Ave. I never factored in 8th Ave to 59th St section where it slows down. The ride was provided by R-40 slants and we weren't flying like on the Brighton Express tracks. Could the R-68's be that slow? There weren't any speed restrictions such as track work zones.
Bill Newkirk
I don't know, but when I rode it to CI it slowed considerably at New Utrecht and the again at the switch north of Kings Highway. We never really "flew" at great speed, except between 18th Ave and Bay Pkwy.
The Sea Beach line is 4 1/2 miles long, so if it takes 9 minutes to traverse it, that works out to an average speed of 30 mph. Par for the R-68s.
10/13/99
Steve B.
Yeah,that's kinda like how fast it was going. There were no stops also. I wonder how the Sunny Summer Sunday Specials fared on travel time. The side signs on the D-Types for this service was "Coney Island Express".
Bill Newkirk
Friday was one of those days. We did have that G.O where all trains run Local from E 177 Parkchester to 3 Ave because of the Switch at Parkchester out of Service. Well before I even left Pelham around 7:50 AM a Put In from Westchester Yard to Parkchester went Brakes In Emergency entering Castle Hill. So every one had to stop and stay from Pelham down to Castle Hill. The only movement was trains from Pelham went down the Middle track from Pelham Bay to Hunts Point. But I was the first to go Local from Pelham on the 8:10 Because the train was on the Move and we could go reguler. The train was order to stay Out of Service intil 125 Street. The train went B.I.E again entering Sound View Ave. So I was forced to a stop at Middletown Road. Then after 10 Minutes a TSS made it to that train. It continued to Hunts Point then turned back to go to the Yard. Now ofcause I'm crowling all the way down Behind my leader. Well that train had a Hand Brake Indication at Sound View. So it was another 5 Minute delay. His train was a R62A. Well he found No hand Brake activated and train was moving freely. So I didn't even see a green Signal intil Brooklyn Bridge on the Uptown Side. So that was the AM Rush Hour for the No.6 Line.
Then the 12:34 Dyre to Bowling Green had a brake Pipe Rupture entering Pelham Parkway. So they did turn some Northbound No.5 trains at E 180 to make up of the service. But Grand Central said over the line speakers of NO No.5 Service. They must of had a hard time turning trains since it was the last trip for Many train crews on the No.5 Line.
Then around 6PM a Brooklyn Bound No.2 Train went B.I.E Leaving 110 Street. So No.2 trains went down Lex. Northbound No.3 trains were turned back south at 96 Street.
Then ofcause the story of the day a Teen shot on the face for a gold chain on a southbound No.2 Train at 3 Ave.
Here is the Sunday NY Times Online article on Friday night's shooting on the No. 2:
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-subway-killing.html
I read the article and have several comments. The last car of a subway train is usually the least safe, but why weren't the cops there? If the cops were there they might have stopped the robbers and possibly saved the teen's life.
In reality, cops on trains should always ride in the rear cars of the train since this is usually where most crimes happen, since the T.O. and conductor usually are in the front and middle cars, which are more crowded.
I never ride behind the middle cars, and usually I prefer to ride in the front of the train, usally the front car (yeah, to railfan) but also because this is a safer part of the train.
TV News could've given alot more coverage to the story, because we don't want people to forget about subway crime, or it will rise once again like in the 70s and 80s.
hey is there anyone who hops freights or knows anything about hopping freights or is a writer who hops freights, later......
[hey is there anyone who hops freights or knows anything about hopping freights or is a writer who hops freights, later......]
It's a terrific idea .... if, that is, you have a desire to end up in jail or dead.
A great assesment Hopping a train is not a good idea unless you have a death wish.
I don't know anyone who does this, although here in the U.S. there is a long tradition of nomadic vagrants and transient-types who have traveled around the country riding boxcars. Years ago there was a more romantic, almost Jack Keuroac (sp?) like attraction of "riding the rails" and seeing the country via freight-car hopping.
However I do not recommend this for anyone today as there are too many violent and criminal minded vagrant gangs that criss-cross the country robbing, swindling and in some cases killing people they encounter. I believe a fairly recent 20/20 or Dateline news show did a big story on just this very topic.
BTW, if you are found by a train crew to be "freeloading" on their turf you can expect to face serious transpassing charges.
My advice: DON'T DO IT.
Doug aka BMTman
Railroads have their own Police Forces that enforce the LAWS, what you suggest is not only dangerous and illegal it gives real railfans a bad name.
If those arguments don't convince you, then check out WWW.deadtrainbums.com
Maybe that will convince you.
> WWW.deadtrainbums.com
Now I know there really IS a web site for everything.
Actually, it's a site that purports to support the elimination of laws passed about "hopping trains". It also has somewhat inflamitory statements in an almost unreadable font on the home page and requires a username/password to go any farther.
Seems like a complete waste of time.
Well, don't be so surprised. An issue like the right to "freight hopping" might seem trivial and silly to urban Eastcoasters (like most of us here) but I bet things like that are taken more seriously out west -- particularly the Pacific Northwest. The sticks and the boonies get more of that lifestyle than the Northeast.
Doug aka BMTman
[An issue like the right to "freight hopping" might seem trivial and silly to urban Eastcoasters (like most of us here) but I bet things like that are taken more seriously out west -- particularly the Pacific Northwest. The sticks and the boonies get more of that lifestyle than the Northeast.]
Freight hopping may be more accepted in other parts of the country, but it's still illegal and dangerous.
Was freight hopping a popular (relatively, of course) thing during the depression?
This is Utica Avenue, transfer to the 3
The next stop on this 4 will be Empire Boulevard.
Common, yes - popular, no. There were three main categories of people who hopped trains back then - the occasional rider, who was using the train to travel to a specific destination but who had no funds to pay for a ticket; the hobo, who espoused a nomadic lifestyle and lived in the hobo jungles but was more than willing to work in order to pay for food and clothing; and the "bum", who was simply "bumming around" from place to place, stopping only long enough to mooch a meal. This latter category included both those too lazy to work and those who kept to the road to avoid arrest for crimes committed in other places, and who often would commit crimes not only in the towns where they stopped but against other tramps as well. ("Tramp" is a generic term that includes at least "hobo" and "bum" under its umbrella, if not all three categories. "Knight of the road", another term you may also have seen, is specifically a hobo.) The most notorious of the bums were known to the 'bo community and when they were spotted even the hoboes, who normally avoided the RR police at all costs, would approach the officers and let them know that a criminal was in the area. The officers, to their credit, often did recognize the distinction between the hoboes and the thugs and would stop by the hobo jungle to warn the hoboes when one of the thugs had been seen in the area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi there; Is there a G.O. out already concerning this service interruption? If so, please list details.
This is 2 weeks away. Where did you get this info from? GO's usually do not come out 2 weeks in advance of a project. Most GO's come out to the field only a few days before the start of it.
This bit of info was in last Sunday's Daily News (10/10),on the Traffic and Transit Page. Also, it would seem to follow the pattern of single tracking currently in effect.
10/10/99
Recently the "Lenox Invert" project closed one station and created unusual reroutings on the IRT subway in upper Manhattan. A few years ago another IRT subway in Brooklyn (the Nostrand Avenue line) had some work to correct another water type problem in the subway.
The question is: Are these two water problems the same or different?
Bill Newkirk
There is a high water table at Lenox Ave and the original construction was faulty. It may be poor design or a lack of technology at the time. One complaint with the IRT's original lines was that they were too hot.
On the Dual Contract lines, the engineers felt the the tunnels might be cooler if they weren't heavily waterproofed. So now we have lines that are hot and wet.
I believe that official NYCT info stated that a State Office Building (Adam Clayton Powell State Office Building?) which changed an underground stream caused the problem
Years ago (mid 80's) when I was assigned to the 73rd Pct (Hopkinson & ENY Av) we used to take the IRT back from traffic court at Livingston & Flatbush. We would get on at Nevins and either get off at Utica and take the Pitkin Av Bus to Hopkinson Av or get off at Rockaway Av and take the Rockaway Av Bus to ENY Av. One day I was returning with 1 other guy. Getting on at Nevins I suggested we go 1 stop to Atlantic and take the LIRR to ENY. He thought I was crazy and said he was staying on the subway. So I bet him (a dinner) that I would beat him taking the LIRR-a dumb bet since I didn't have a schedule. I got off and discovered to my dismay that the next train that stopped at ENY was in a half hour but there was a non-stop to Jamaica in 5 min. Imagining my friend was under Eastern Pkway already (and how do I explain to the desk officer that we both clocked outter court at the same time and I'm much later) I ran to the front of the non-stop and asked the engineer if he could stop at ENY. He said I have to ask the conductor. I asked the conductor and after listening about all the tickets he's got for doing nothing wrong he agreed and told the engineer. I stood in the 1rst car next to the cab and when we reached ENY he stopped right at the beginning of the platform so only the first door was out of the tunnel. He let me out and I waited 10 minutes for the ENY Av Bus. (I could have walked, it wasn't far) I was wondering where I should take him for dinner, hoping he didn't suggest Peter Luger's. Imagine my suprise when I walked into the station house and found out I was first!!! Seems there was a long delay on the train before Utica!!! The only down part is I still haven't gotten my dinner yet, almost 15 years later!!!
Good story Jeff!
Doug aka BMTman
Did you tell him you cheated?
If you are ever wondering why your train is late, it just may be because of people like this. I belive it was Thursday night. I'm sure it was the E-Line. A female customer demanded medical assistance due to an injury suffered on the 'E' train. Oh by the way, the alleged injury was a mosquito bite.
I didn't realize that the Encephalitis virus worked that fast. Were you there? What was the response to her request?
I seem to remember a thing or two that when a jet planed laned in some foreign country they sprayed the cabin with incecticde. I guess from no on we'll have to spray any subway car then went into Queens...
...expect the lawsuit against the MTA for not controlling mosquitoes any day now.
You wouldn't think a mosquito could survive in the environment that is the subway. However, insects have been known to adapt...
Makes you wonder if that person had though of using repellant.
It is true.... I heard it come over the "6 wire" The TA & EMS dispatchers were laughing over it.
OH.....I forgot to mention that she claimed it happened during the AM rush.......SHE REPORTED IT AT 7:30PM!!!!!!!!!
10/11/99
Disrupt service because a passenger claimed of being bitten by a mosquito!! HAH!! If this was the old days service would not have been disrupted and a swift application of shoe her posterior would have taken care of the situation. However,that would be a violent way of solving things by todays standards. Just shows how stupid our society and Transit Authority has become. Next time in the middle of the rush hour,I'll disrupt service claiming a fellow passenger broke wind and caused me to have sharp chest pains!! With a little luck the news media will videotape me being removed on a stretcher and I'll make the 10 o'clock news. Boy will my friends be impressed !!
Hey,when in Rome do as Romans do !!! That's our society now !!
Bill Newkirk
I wonder if anyone lodged a complaint on that train Wayne was on in Sept. of 1973 when that guy ralphed. Probably not.
You are correct. What i thought was a misprint was actually true. The report # would have indicated a late PM incident but the train was the 7:13 E.
I know that part of the long term MTA plan is to Automate the entire subway system and that they've already started that on the Broadway line. But since they've basically rebuilt the Franklin Shuttle, did the MTA think enough to automate that line?
I don't know how you "know" this, since it isn't true. What's been done on the Broadway Line (and which Broadway Line -- BMT Manhattan, BMT Brooklyn, or IRT) that would lead you to make such a statement? If you're talking about CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control), a Train Operator will still be present, and maybe a Conductor, too, at least on full-length trains -- and it'll be on the Canarsie Line first.
To answer your question, though, no...when the Franklin Shuttle reopens on Wednesday, it will run the way it did just before it was closed: Two-car R-68s with OPTO (One-Person Train Operation).
David
[I know that part of the long term MTA plan is to Automate the entire subway system and that they've already started that on the Broadway line. But since they've basically rebuilt the Franklin Shuttle, did the MTA think enough to automate that line?]
The 2nd Ave Subway in one of its pervious conceptions was supposed to be automated, I THINK. I know of no plans to automate the subway. Franklin Ave Shuttle will be OPTO with a HUMAN...
The L lines scheduled to be automated when the R143's arrive.
Sort of...when CBTC is in place, there will still be a Train Operator. The equipment is designed for full automation, but it won't be used that way.
David
[The L lines scheduled to be automated when the R143's arrive.]
Yeah, I understand the T/O will be basically "babysitting" the automated equipment (besides opening and closing doors).
The Canarsie Line first has to be "straightened out" before this CBTC can be instituted whether or not the R-143s are ready. That is why all the work over at Atlantic Ave. is underway. Right now track P2 swerves apart from P1 over by Sutter Ave. going north (to accomodate the old Fulton El). It ends up running along Snediker. The TA is making plans to eliminate most of the steel structure to realign P2 over Van Sinderin so it runs parallel to P1 to match the rest of the line from 8th Avenue to Rockway Parkway.
Doug aka BMTman
CBTC is not automation. ATO is automation. They can be used in tandem (such as the MUNI Metro subway).
As I understand it, NYCT's implementation of CBTC is to replace the antiquated technology of the existing fixed block/wayside system with a moving block system whose aspects are transmitted to the trains via radio. Motormen will still run the trains, responding to the signals' aspects as displayed in the cab.
As you ride the D,B, or Q train over the Manhattan Bridge toward Manhattan when you get on the Manhattan Side on the right side of the train (if you were facing West)one of the first few buildings you see appears to be a sweatshop if you peer into the windows. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Has anyone seen this place? Can anyone confirm that it is indeed a sweatshop?
When the system is automated, will the station announcements be automated as well? Will the MTA (or the Transit Union) require less workers to be on a train at a given time?
As noted by me in a posting earlier this evening, the system is NOT being automated. That said, the R-110A and R-110B test trains were delivered with automated announcement systems, and the R-142/142A (IRT) and R-143 (BMT-IND) trains now on order will also have this feature.
David
[When the system is automated, will the station announcements be automated as well? Will the MTA (or the Transit Union) require less workers to be on a train at a given time?]
I was riding the D train today, the one that got into Atlantic Ave around 6:21 PM and the Transit Worker who announces stations was excellent. I think the guy was new because I didn't recognize his voice or his announcing style but he named correctly which trains you could transfer to at each station - what those trains destinations were, he notified customers that for the next few weekends there'd be a lot of track work and suggested that the customers read the white posters, he reminded customers of the rules regarding bicycles on the train, and other info. Anybody know this guy? He should train the other station announcers.
There has been some discussion here about the fate of the 110s. I saw a train of them in the White Plains Road yard while doing field surveys in the Bronx.
How does the 7th Ave station in Manhattan work? I took the E train from Queens and then transferred to the D train heading Downtown at 7th Ave. I was suprised to find that this transfer was Across The Platform and that even though both trains were heading downtown they pull into the station in opposite directions. How does this work?
It works very well :-)
Seriously, D trains headed "downtown" are coming from Columbus Circle, which is on Eighth Avenue. The trains turn left under W. 53rd Street, stop at Seventh Avenue, then turn right under Sixth Avenue. D trains headed "downtown" are coming from Queens. They run under W. 53rd Street and stop at Lexington Avenue, Fifth Avenue, and Seventh Avenue, then turn left under Eighth Avenue. Thus, D and E trains cross each other along W. 53rd Street, then parallel each other as they go south. Note that there is no crossover at Seventh Avenue that would allow D and E trains to switch with each other.
David
[How does the 7th Ave station in Manhattan work? I took the E train from Queens and then transferred to the D train heading Downtown at 7th Ave. I was suprised to find that this transfer was Across The Platform and that even though both trains were heading downtown they pull into the station in opposite directions. How does this work?]
It works the same as any other train station: the trains go on those long shiny metal things -- they call them "rails" -- and the passengers stand on the platforms until the trains arive.
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Actually, there are two separate lines that run through the station: one runs from 6th avenue and 47th st. to CPW and CPS and the other runs from 50th st. and 8th ave. to the 53rd st. tunnel under the East River.
Instead of having a single platform for each line, the station is set up with both downtown tracks on one platform and the Queens- and Bronx-bound tracks on the other platform. Makes for easier transfers unless you forgot something at home and want to go back the way you came or you're trying to go from Queens to the Bronx or from the Bronx to Queens.
Something to do with the N/R and 1/2/3/9 above?
Something to do with the N/R and 1/2/3/9 above? Or just an expensive idea?
Well, the IND lines pass beneath the IRT and BMT, so the 7th Ave. station is fairly deep. That area is a prime example of the flying junctions which adorn the IND lines. It means fewer delays where routes converge and diverge. Although it's difficult to picture, at the western end of the 7th Ave. station, there are four track levels at the point where the B/D and E tracks go their separate ways. A similar arrangement exists north of 47-50th Sts. on the 6th Ave. line, and yet another at Smith and Schermerhorn Sts. in Brooklyn. Had the IND Phase 2 lines been built, it's safe to assume there would have been additional flying junctions.
I found a new promotional MetroCard at Columbus Circle today. It is a green Conseco Financial card that reads "Playing your high school oboe in the subway is one way yo pay for renovations. May we suggest another?" It has a 12/31/00 expiration date
Conseco is a big insurance, investment, and lending company. They have sponsored one of AJ Foyt's Indy Racing League cars and will sponsor his new Nascar team next year. They also bought the naming rights to the new basketball arena in Indianapolis opening this month.
There is also another Millennial card available: 15th Century.
Marc, I saw Mark W. this weekend (at Shoreline) & he said there are two of them, one is an error. He didn't have any extras on him :-(
Mr t
I had to go up to San Francisco the past few days, and on the way back, passed the location where I found a pair of R-27/30 cars a few months ago. Now there are four additional carbodies on that property, though these are all in the red/silver paint jobs. One of the cars is actually broken in two, about 2/3 of the way from end to end, and the split is up in the air.
I have tried to get closer to these cars (than across the Los Angeles River while driving on I-5) but it is virtually impossible. They are on private property -- an independent movie/t.v. studio. I know of no way to get identification as to which car numbers these actually were.
I'd feel safe to assume that the four additional red/silver R-27/30's were ones that were out here for Sony Pictures' "Money Train" and "Die Hard with a Vengeance" -- and I guess that this independent studio is doing some new productions using NYCTA subway cars. If I find out anything, I will post.
Kind of makes you wish you had some powerful binoculars or supertelephoto camera lens.
Maybe someone can sneak out a Sea Beach train to California. Believe me, if such a thing was done, I'd find a way to get to it. Don't doubt it for a minute.
I'm prety sure those R-30s out in LA have N signs on them. I'll even go out on a limb and say their side route curtains have an Astoria/B'wy/Sea Beach or Queens Blvd/B'wy/Sea Beach sign, or both.
SteveB 8AVEXP: Hey old buddy, tell me where exactly they are and I'll take a jaunt down there. Do you or anyone else knows where they are?
I would venture to guess they're at a studio lot, if not a scrapyard.
They might very well have "N" signage. The blue/silver cars are so heavily covered with grafitti that I doubt if you could see what the signs say. The "redbird" paint scheme cars, no doubt came from "Die Hard with a Vengeance" and "Money Train" filming (at another studio) and I'm sure they still have the incorrect signage displayed in those movies.
Well, I did see SOME correct markings for the stations depicted in Money Train. For example, in the scene at 5th Ave., even though the station is fake, the train is marked as an F. And then there was the honest-to-goodness R-62 4 train at the real 33rd St. station - the only undisguised station in the whole movie.
Oh, I have super powerful binoculars. I also have the telephoto lenses to do it with.
BUT -- slight problem, the ONLY place you can see them from is the northbound I-5 Freeway. Not only is it ILLEGAL to stop on freeways except in emergency (or the infamous traffic jams) but in that particular area, it is VERY dangerous to do so, no emergency lane on the side as it is an interchange sandwiched between the LA River and the Gene Autry Museum. Caltrans (the highway department) is forever cramming more lanes into the spaces they don't have with a shoehorn, and this is one of those places.
Went to Branford today in the rain, along with my younger son and Dave Wallace. Had a tremendous time, even with the rotten weather. Met Steve K. on one of the RT cars (don't remember which), rode all three RT cars that were running plus the Canadian trolley and Third Avenue 629. PCC 1001 stayed in the barn today due to the weather - I would have loved to have ridden that one. Didn't get to see my old friend CNS&M 709 - it was buried back in one of the closed barns - but I suspect I'll have an opportunity to do so sometime in the future, seeing as how I anted up the dues money today. I rode 709 when it was in regular service on the North Shore. About 3:45 they called me out to 629 and I ran her down to the end of the line and back with the instructor, my son, and another Branford member on board. Nice to be able to operate a car that my father and grandfather may well have ridden when it was in regular service. Once I got the hang of the brake it was smooth sailing - a little more training and I'll be able to run that one easily. Of course, they're all different, so I'll hopefully have the chance to learn a few of the others as well.
Dave was going to take the R9 for a spin - he was planning to take the train back to NYC so we didn't stay around to watch, as the nasty weather was taking its toll on my arthritic joints. Hopefully he'll post his story here too - he was sure having a good time when we last saw him!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wanted to add a PS to my story elsewhere on this thread:
R-17 #6688 had here roll signs turned especially for this week-ends theme which was "Autumn in NY - A Subway Series". Her sings read #7 Express to Shea Staduim, Willets Point. When questioned whether this was correct for this or any R-17, management replied that R-17s in fact did duty on the Flushing line for several months before the R-33s arrived. Maybe in some small way #6688 had some part in helping those amazing Mets make it to the next round in the 10th while we were riding the PCC down the line (there was a big cheer in the car).
Mr t__:^)
Hey, Thurston, too bad #6688 didn't have an Empire Blvd./Ebbetts Field roll sign -- that would've made it an added treat to the theme of "Subway Series".
Doug aka BMTman
Cars that went to Flushing in the 60s if I recall correctly, were 6500-6549. Redbird can correct me if I'm wrong. They were used as extras until the R33/36 World's Fair Cars became sufficient in supply.
Also take note that 6688 and 15 others went to the Flushing Line in 1984-85, to fill in for R33 singles undergoing GOH, before returning to the mainline.
-Stef
Stef: The R-17's can certainly qualify as honorary Flushing Line cars thanks in part to their marroon paint and double ended capability. During the 50's the Flushing Line was dominated by the R-12,14 and 15's. Yet a number of R-17's could be found here.
In 1964 when their where not enough Bluebirds for Flushing Line service R-33 Redbirds went over to lend a hand together with a maroon painted R-17 to make up the eleventh car.
Again during the GOH as you said the R-17's where in demand while the R-33 singles were rebuilt.
Lets not forget that the R-17's outlasted two younger car groups, the R-21 and R-22.
The sub theme of a subway series was appropriate, if it does come to pass it will be an all IRT event. R-33 Redbirds on the #4 and R-33 and 36 Redbirds on the #7.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks, Redbird!
-Stef
Unless the Mets can figure out how to handle those $%#^@$# Braves, they won't make it to the World Series. They need to keep telling themselves the Braves aren't Supermen; they're human as well.
Yes, it was quite "eerie" to hear that the Mets had won while aboard Brooklyn PCC 1001. It was my first time on 1001 and definitely my first time riding ANY PCC backwards!!
Jeff H was applauded after the reverse move was completed.
I went Saturday with my 5 year old son, Matthew. I wasn't sure how long he'd hold up with "Daddy's hobby" but, I must say, we arrived about 12:30pm and didn't leave until about 6. Matthew is still talking about it. We got to meet some fellow subtalkers, too (Thurston, BMTman, RedbirdR33, Stef.) We rode every trolley and rapid transit car that went out on the line between those times.
For those of you who were there Saturday, there was a guy aboard the R-9 trip (Steve was his name?) who was saying that the IND ghost station at Pitkin & 76th does indeed exist. I couldn't hear most of the conversation because I had to make sure Matthew wouldn't find his way off the train through the front storm door. Can anyone fill me in on this?
--Mark
Hi, Mark. Glad you could join us!
About that unused station at 76th & Pitkin Ave.: I heard bits and pieces since the R-9 was making those famous moans n' groans, but I am sure Larry Redbird has the complete scoop on this. What I heard basically is that the rumored station does exist, but that it is completely sealed over with two layers (?) of cinderblocks, and would be inconspicuous to the untrained observer. That guy Steve supposedly claims to have been down in there many years ago (as a kid -- if I heard correctly).
Hopefully Larry will see this post.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
When I was at Branford this Saturday Doug introduced me to a Mr Steve Kresler (I may have misspelled his last name). He was quite knowledgeable about unused tunnels in New York City and especially about the IND Pitkin Av extension which was being discussed by Doug,Thurston and myself. He stated that he had spoken to TA (or BOT) people who actually had seen the tunnels built east of Elderts Lane as far as 78 Street. He said that the station at 76 St was constructed even with stairways which are sealed at the top. He further stated that a bulkhead was constructed at Elderts Lane where the bumpers now end which was three cinder blocks thich and reinforced by steel. He said that he and a few other transit workers tried to break through but that without jackhammers it would be an impossible task. According to Steve the tunnels are completely sealed not even accessable through manhole covers.
As I said before in an earlier post I walked this entire route and saw no evidence on the street of ventilation shafts or provision for stairways at 76 St. In fact at 76 St only the southeast corner has enough space for a narrow staircase and the IND used to like to build wide staircases on all four corners. It would be interesting to know what Pitkin Avenue was like during the construction. Were there houses already there or was it simply a then vacant meadow? It would seem that some provision would have been made in the form of variences for the homeowners at 76 St.
Still Steve was quite knowledeable about this and many other tunnels so it may indeed be as he says.
Have any of our TA members actually walked through any of those tunnels there?
BTW when Doug first introduced me to the man I thought it was our Steve and asked him if he was the original.
Perhaps this should be our next field trip. We can dress up like Con Ed workers and meet at 76 St and Pitkin with some jackhammers and put this matter to rest.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The whole story of a station at 76 and Pitkin is a bit odd. It reeks of urban legendism all over.
This is Flatlands-Vandalia Avenues
The next and last stop on this 3 train will be Starrett City.
If indeed the tunnel and station do exist, there's got to be a record of it somewhere in the city archives. Perhaps one of our "unemployed due to no longer needing to work" (everyone's getting upset about "retired" lately) SubTalkers can do some research? I'd love to myself - I am trained as an archivist/librarian - but somehow I don't think my employer would find it relevant to what they pay me to do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There has to be some records somewhere!!!! I think the library or city hall (or Queens Borough Hall) would be a better trip than disguising yourselves as Con-Ed workers with jackhammers!!! (But not as much fun!!!!)
Redbird, thanks for the post.
I'm ready with my hard hat!
--Mark
Mark: It worked for Dan Akroyd and Bill Murray. Why not us.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Anon-E-Mouse, his son Russ and myself showed the good judgement to take the ride up on Sunday in spite of the weather. And I'm glad we did.
What a great day!! A big thanks to the folks up at Branford - especially Steve K and Jeff H and one other fellow - (was that you Pat?) who worked so hard to make a great day of it.
These good people enabled me to fulfill a childhood dream. I stood behind the controls of an R9 and ran it down the track.
NOTE: Allowing visitors to operate equipment is a special treat that the museum has offered a few times in the past and may offer again in the future. This weekend was one of those special occasions.
For those of you who remember the great sounds - the hissing air doors and brakes, the growl and groan of traction motors and straining gears, the distinctive smell of an R9, the railfan window, the soothing almost cozy heat coming from under the seats - the experience was nothing short of AWESOME!!! And all this with the R9 MU'd to a Low V!
(Sorry for the caps - I almost never use them but this was beyond fun!)
Steve and Jeff showed great patience in instructing me how to get things moving and more importantly - stopping.
For trolley fans, the museum has a bunch of cars from various lines including Third Avenue, horse drawn trolleys, a PCC - you name it.
Subway equipment includes the R9, the Low V and an R17. In addition the museum has a CTA car, an SIRT car and various other pieces of rapid transit equipment including several buses - some needing repairs - ranging from major to minor.
Anyone out there looking for that magical time machine? Do you want to see pneumatically powered doors? Do you want to listen to an old time air compressor under a subway or trolley car? Do you like cane seats? How about wooden cars? If any of this appeals to you - take a ride or a drive. You will find your way back at The Shoreline Trolley museum.
If you live in New York City, MNCR/CDOT has M2 equipment ready for $9 a ride to New Haven and the cab ride from there will cost about $14 with tip. If you want to spend more money and add in a ride over Hell Gate Bridge, Amtrak will take you to New Haven for $26 each way.
If you drive, take I-95 beyuond New Haven and look for the signs to the museum in East Haven.
The museum needs and deserves our support. I encourage everyone on this board to put aside some time and take a ride to Shoreline. You'll find it's well worth it.
I noticed you gave directions Dave and thought I might add that a much more scenic route (especially fall, for the folliage) would be to take the Hutch to the Meritt Pkway, and the Meritt all the way to Millford where you can catch I-95 the rest of the way. You also save a small toll, have no commercial traffic, and might avoid some traffic tieups. You also miss the ugly service areas which certainly aren't the same since fast food replaced the coffee shop counters.
"What a great day!! A big thanks to the folks up at Branford - especially Steve K and Jeff H and one other fellow - (was that you Pat?) who worked so hard to make a great day of it."
Patrick is one of the qualified subway car operators. I don't believe he visits this board, so I'm answereing for him. On Sat. they had four there (Jeff, Steve, Patrick & Lou).
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for putting in a good word.
I'm sorry I didn't meet you since I got sidelined with an injured knee. Folks, I'm OK now.
-Stef
You can always say you actually touched something with a ten-foot pole. I did back in 1980 when Eddie had to move 1689 from one of the sidings with no overhead wire. He attached a heavy cable to the underside of the car; the other end was connected to a hook on the end of a long wooden pole. I guided the hook onto the power line and walked along as Eddie slowly moved the car.
Dave, we'd NEVER guess you're a marketing person from your comments :-)
Great to have your company on the ride up - looking forward to doing it again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse and Russ
It was a pleasure riding up with you and your son Chris and meeting other Subtalkers as well.
As for my marketing skills - I'll help the museum any time - any way I can by getting the message out to the folks who are most likely to spend $$$.
It was great day despite the rain, traffic and an a minor accident on I95. Driving a subway car is an experience I'll never forget. I had the honors of driving the Low-V with the R-9 in tow. But after placing the Low-V into emergency twice, Jeff took the controls and drove back to the platform. But if the opportunity comes again, I'll try it again.
Thanks to Jeff and his crew for making this possible and also the volunteers at Bradford.
Paul Polischuk
experience I'll never forget. I had the honors of driving the Low-V with the R-9 in tow. But after
placing the Low-V into emergency twice, Jeff took the controls and drove back to the platform.
Just to clear up misunderstandings Paul....I took the train back
into the platform as a matter of policy, we generally don't allow
students to operate into the yard over all the facing point switches.
Also, for the first time ever, we had both cars in the train taking
power thanks to a temporary bus-line jumper run between the cars.
You may not have realized it, but when you called for power on
the Lo-V, another motorman in the R-9 behind you was following your
move and making the R-9 take power too!
I was unaware of the another motorman. I should have been more alert on what was going on instead of talking. Sorry Jeff.
Paul Polischuk
Happened to catch the promo for next week's "Felicity"- one of the plots seems to be Felicity and friends (??..I have NEVER actually seen this show..) in the old "lets get our main characters stuck on the subway, and see what happens..." plot. (how many times has tv used that old saw??) Anyway....I seem to remember reading that this is one of those shows that films a lot of establishing shots in town..but then tries to pass of Toronto or Vancouver as NYC. So lets all at least tape this, and see what they use as a "New York City subway car"...
I'd like to see someone pass an Almond Joy off as an R-32/38.
Wouldn't that be a display!
In some of the relatively few episodes I saw last season, they had brief shots of Felicity getting on a Redbird at Bleecker St station. Both the train and the station seemed real to me.
Watch, it's going to be another cardboard background, with cheap lighting. Did anybody see the episode of Seinfield when the whole show took place on the NYC Subways. It was amazing how the doors never moved and the tunnel is pitch black.
Yeah, I saw that one.
By his start and end point(somewhere on the Upper West Side to Coney Island) we can surmise he took the B, while Elaine, travelling to a lesbian wedding, was on a Brooklyn Bound 4.
I noted in one episode when Mr. Pitt was ill, Elaine claimed to have taken the RR from Queens. I don't think the RR was still around during that time.
Whoever wrote the episode or was the story editor probably left New York sometime in the early-to-mid-80s, and that was their best recollection.
I haven't seen "Felicity," but it may have done some on-location exterior shooting in New York for a few episodes, while the full scenes will be filmed on a sound stage in Hollywood, or Vancouver, or wherever.
Outside of the movie, "The Incident," and Woody Allen in the R-17 in "Bananas," I really can't think of too many interior subway scenes that have looked very realistic. Most of the time, it doesn't evne look like the art designers even try for an accurate re-creation.
Not Mr. Pitt. That was well before she worked for him, it was a boyfriend of hers. Also recall that they all transferred at Times Square in the Subway episode, Kramer's bogus directions (would never be accurate) and the graffiti on the trains. Remember, this was all done in 1992.
This is the 2 bound for Emmons Avenue
The next stop will be Gerritsen Avenue
I remember that episode... Kramer's train had a destination sign indicating it was going to South Ferry, but the interior of the train looked to be even larger than that of a BMT train -- certainly much larger than the IRT trains that actually serve South Ferry.
Don't forget the movie "The Fugitive" where Harrison Ford breaks the window and jumps off the train as it is entering the "Balbo" stop on the L. Last time I checked there's no stop at Balbo; the stop they actually showed in the scene was Clark / Lake. But at least they used a real 3200-series train.
The few episodes of "ER" I've seen have some scenes that take place on real 3200's as well.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Also, remember the "Cigar Store Indian" where Queensborough Plaza was underground and the back of the forward/rear facing seat was towards the door area, not against another seat.
This is Empire Boulevard
The next stop on this 4 will be Church Avenue.
Out of blind curiousity, has anyone ever been stuck on a subway train? I don't seem to recall hearing about any incidents in recent years
I don't know if this counts as stuck, but the only instance was when some dumb f*** pulled the emergency brake because of a sick passenger or something. This was on the southbound Q after Church. It was fun (yeah, right) seeing the same D that I passed up at Sewer aka Atlantic Avenue to get the Q pass us by on the local, plus a few Qs also.
This is New Lots Avenue
This is the 3 bound for Starrett City
The next stop will be Linden Boulevard.
This afternoon, I was stuck on a 'D' train, stalled between 205th St. and Bedford Park Blvd. We were stuck for about 10 - 15 minutes due to signal trouble. Of course, I was in the 2nd car, alone, and didn't have my keys with me to walk up to the first car to find out what was happening. I had to wait just like a customer. NOT FUN...
I seem to recall my father said he got stuck on the BMT back in 1967. We went into the city on May 21, and while my mother, my sister and I headed up to the Museum of Natural History on a moaning, groaning AA train, my father left us at the 42nd St. mezzanine and headed for the BMT Broadway line to visit his cousin in Brooklyn, who was ill. He joined us later at the museum, and naturally I let it be known that I wanted to do some more subway riding that day, at which point my father said his train sat for perhaps an hour either on the Manhattan Bridge or at one of the portals, and he didn't think it would be a good idea to ride around that day. I think I asked him what train he took, and while I don't remember what he said, it was probably an N or QB (this was before Chrystie St., when the QB ran all day on weekends). I had to settle for a ride back to Port Authority on another AA train, and while we were waiting, an express ripped past, probably an A train. We ran neck-and-neck with a D train for part of the way, with its "Coney Island" signs illuminated.
Any Subtalker going to Harmon on the 16th??
I'll be on MetroNorth's 8:54a (8813) Express to Croton-Harmon (9:45)if anyone wants to ride toghter. There should be shuttle buses from the station to the shops.
Well, I'll definitely be there, but don't know if I'll be riding the 8:54 Exp.
-Stef
I'll be there. Driving. Brian
I hope to be driving there. (before it opens)
I'll be there, probbly with a few tag along friends. Hope they're nice to us and run some ACMUs on the Hudson......
I'll prob be driving over to Beacon and riding down...don't how early....what is the times anyway??
Shop is open 10am - 3pm/.
You don't need a bus, it is a short walk.
Two years ago they provided buses...thankfully too, as it was a very rainy day...
Anyone know if there are any videos for sale that show the BMT Southern Division Lines - Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, Culver, 4th Ave.? Either historical or contemporary are OK. Thanks. E-mail back if you can.
Andy ... I sent you an e-mail.
--Mark
Karl: I know that you have a special interest in the BU's. 1227 was running at Branford this weekend and doing a very good job. The BU's were speedsters in their own right and had good acceration. This is something not appreciated by those of use who only remember the Q''s with the IRT Composite maximum traction trucks. 1227 is painted a bright maroon or red and her interior seems to have the original paint scheme. There were longitudinal seats at the ends of the car and eight cross seats in the center. She was one of 35 cars (1200-1234) built by Osgood Bradley back in 1903 for something called the Transit Developement Corporation,which was probably some kind of BRT subsidiary.
There is something delightfully incongruous about riding New York City subway and el cars through the salt marshes of Connecticut.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"There is something delightfully incongruous about riding New York City subway and el cars through the salt marshes of Connecticut."
Probally has something to do with hanging out on the back porch of the BU, or the others with their front doors open while they're rolling along ! Or maybe it was all those folks that were talking to each other ?
BTW, did anyone else notice the customer on the R-17 that fell asleep on the way back from Short Beach ? He did wake up just in time to get off at his stop (he he he).
Mr t__:^)
Speaking of 6688, did it have a chance to rocket down the mainline as it has been known to do?
Of course it did!!!! She's like a bolt of lightning, and that's probably why I like this car so much.
-Stef
Larry, Thanks for the report on 1227 and the other cars for that matter. I sure enjoyed your posts as well as all the other "subtalkers" who made it to Branford over the weekend. It sure sounds as if you all had a great time. I was with you in spirit if not in person. I thought of what you were doing at various times on Saturday. I probably would have gotten on 1227 and never budged for the rest of the day.
Our craft show in Maryland on Saturday was terrific, one of the best ever. It was still no substitute for Branford. Sunday was a disaster with all the rain, not one sale, and we almost drowned.
Today is dryout day, we are trying to get our E-Z UP dry as well as tablecloths, some inventory etc.
Reading everyone's reports of the weekend operations has been very enjoyable. Thank You All...
Karl B
Karl: A little more info. 1227 still has the markers on the outside of the clerestory and the high roof. Something the Q's and subsequently our three remaining Bu's lost when they went to the IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always liked those markers no matter what position they were placed on the car roof. I have watched for one or a pair of those lights at railroadiana shows for years and have never seen any offered for sale. I've seen several pictures of marker equipped cars being scrapped and the markers were still present which indicated to me that they must have all gone to the junk pile with the rest of the car. I guess that none were ever saved. I would have thought that they could have been converted to house current and illuminated on display in a hobbyist's train room. IIRC, all four colors were on those markers, red, green, amber and white. A pair of them would have looked great in a train room.
Larry, Did you happen to notice, Has the missing anti-climber been put back on 1227 yet?
Karl B
Having been to Branford and ridden 1227 as well as visting car G at Court Street I wonder if any of the good people at Branford could tell us of the status of the other Gate Cars in the collection.
IRT 824, BRT 197,659,1349,1362 and 999 (Instruction Car).
Are any others available for service? Thanks in advance for any info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry:
Not much good news on this front. All of these cars are unrestored, have suffered from the salt air, and, except for 1349 (and a bit of painting that was being done on the outside of 999 by Albie Hirsch before he passed away), nothing has been done to the cars.
824 - Housed in barn, inoperable with large hole in roof.
197 - No motor damage, since it is a trailer, but has not been painted or used in many years.
659 - Unrestored, with burned out motors.
1349 - Had the platform disassembled by a member who then stopped coming. He came back briefly this year and cut the beam necessary for rebuilding of the platform. The truck has been disassembled, and the wheels need to be turned. This car has the most hope of any in the group.
1362 - Outside under a tarp. Flooded motors and, now, beginning to suffer damage to outside walls.
999 - Inoperable with bad end. For a brief time, it was thought that 999 could be used with displays inside her, and that may come to pass a few years down the road.
While the news is not good, I hope this answers your question.
There's always hope if we put our heads together, Lou. Something of a positive nature will happen to the El Car fleet even if it takes many years.
-Stef
It seems to me that the gate cars are in poor shape and that BERA with it proximity to the Long Island and flood plains is not helping matters. Maybe Seashore can help out in preserving these cars while BERA could have inside car storage built on pilings. Money is always a issue. Maybe the Federal Government can help with a huge grant.
It seems to me that the gate cars are in poor shape and that BERA with it proximity to the Long
Island and flood plains is not helping matters. Maybe Seashore can help out in preserving these cars
ROTFL! Seashore is in the same boat as a lot of other railway
museums: more cars than barn spaces. Maybe Todd can comment.
All of the "gate cars", Brooklyn and Manhattan, are indoors with
2 exceptions: 1362 and 999. 1362 is a BU convertible identical to
1349, which is inside and being restored, albeit slowly. 999 is
of course the former BRT Instruction Car, although all of the
setups inside were removed before the car was preserved. These
cars are outside but they are protected with long-term tarps.
Jeff you are 100% correct! One of the dilemmas of Museuming these days is ensuring you can protect your current collection, in addition to acquiring additional "artifacts."
At Seashore, we are absolutely gridlocked in our yards/barns, and many of our precious collection is outside in the not-too-hospitable Maine weather.
These issues are debated constantly by our trustees, and I know it's the same everywhere!
Does the fact that Seashore is on the national register of historic places (I thought I heard someone say that on Saturday) help if you should decide to apply for a grant?
--Mark
Lou: Thank you very much for such a comprehensive answer. I printed out your respone and will put it in the files. Again thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yesterday in the Philadelphia Inquirer, there was a story
in the travel section about L.A.'s Red Line subway,
basically going on ad nauseum with the same comments you'd
expect to hear from someone when you talk about a subway
in Los Angeles like:
"With all those earthquakes?"
"Doesn't everyone drive over there?"
Or my favorite:
"L.A. has a subway?"
It said that the Red Line only gets 40,000 riders a day
but the MTA hopes that when the North Hollywood extension
is complete in 2001, the line will get 200,000 daily riders.
BTW, the writer referred to the Blue and Green Light rail
lines as "surface trains". Anyone ever heard that one?
Those aren't surface trains, they LUV's. I rode them.
"Those aren't surface trains, they LUV's. I rode them."
LUV's?? Those were Chevy mini trucks in the late 1970's!!!!!
Maybe LRV for Light Rail Vehicle.
And calling them "surface trains" can be correct, they do run on the surface, except for a 1/4 mile tunnel at the north end of the presently operating Blue Line.
Starting now, all my posts (unless I forget) will be signed with a station announcement based on the R-110A for all the lines in order. BUT, I will only do the unbuilt parts of my fantasy lines. Should be fun.
This is Flatbush Avenue, transfer to the 5.
This is the 2 bound for Emmons Avenue.
The next stop will be Kings Highway.
Stand Clear of the Closing Doors.
It's a kitschy thing.
3 Train Mike does that too.
How about "This is the 2 headed for Utica Avenue"?
That's who I got it from. But all of my stations are purely fake, you should see what my brain can concoct. just one note, I've decided to rename Gerritsen Avenue in my last message to Quentin Road-Gerritsen Avenue. The LED display would just say Quentin Road. And Kings Highway is Kings Highway-Avenue N with KH on the display.
This is the 2 bound for Emmons Avenue
The next stop will be Avenue U.
Thanks for recognizing my posts guys.... I will end my format with my fantasy line as well. The Utica Ave line. Here we go......
3TM
This is a Manhttan bound H making all express stops to 72St-West End Av. The next station will be Shore Pkwy/Emmons Ave. Transfer available to the B4 and B44 on the lower level. Step in, Step on, Stand Clear of the closing doors.......
That's an interesting line. Not part of my Commutist Manifesto though.
This is Church Avenue
The next stop on the 4 will be Avenue D
Hey, to each his own. Seems like our lines kind of coincide........
3TM
Shore Pkwy/Emmons Av. Transfer to the B4 and B44 lower level. The next station will be Avenue Y. Transfer to the B36 on the lower level. Stand clear of the closing doors........
Hey, as long as you're on the Utica Ave. line, don't forget Fulton St., especially the part where transfers are available downstairs for the A and C.
I believe that the webmaster has removed my off subject threads like the changing of airport names. It seems we must stay on the subject of trains and not other transportation subjects.
I don't think Dave minds too much if it's rare and has some relevant connection to rail topics.
But it's always better to stay on track, as it were.
> I believe that the webmaster has removed my off subject threads
> like the changing of airport names.
Not true. I count 67 messages with the title
SUBJECT>Re: Guilliano International Airport
or variations thereof.
Maybe you just need to change your parameters to see older posts.
-Dave
According to the TV listings in today's (Monday, Oct. 11) papers, PBS -- or at least WTTW Chicago -- is showing "The American Experience: New York Underground", at 9:00pm Central. If this is the show I've seen before, it's about the construction of the original subway line and the story leading up to it (the Beach pneumatic line, els, etc.) and it's very good.
I tried to find the New York City television listings in the office copy of the New York Times, but I came to the conclusion that the New York Times HAS no television listings. How can a newspaper be so pretentious as to exclude both comic strips and television schedules? (It may be a National Edition thing, but then why does the paper include movie show-time listings for the New York City metro area?)
They have television listings in Arts (section E in NY) or Weekend on Friday (also E) and there's a magazine for weekly TV listings and TV articles on Sunday (NY only: section 13). According to NY Times Television (that Sunday magazine I just talked about) this will not be broadcast in New York.
This is the 2 to Emmons Avenue
The next and last stop will be Emmons Avenue.
Thanks to the miracle of WebTV, I'm watching a story about
the federal government getting cities motivated to action
about terrorist attcks in US cities.
The story had a point about the recent "outbreak" of West
Nile encephalitis in New York City and that it may
have been a terrorist attack in a subway(for once, me and
Emperor Giuliani agree that it sounds far-fetched).
It seems that subways are the most vulnerable point of any
city. Has NYC done anything in the way of drills or
contingency plans in the event of something like the Tokyo
attack or worse occurring?
There used to be a picture of gate car #659 on this site that was taken in 1969. Although this was 30 years ago the car looked terrific in the picture. I note that Lou lists this as "Unrestored, with burned out motors". I'm guessing that Branford had this car almost 20 years before the picture was taken. Had this car had a previous cosmetic restoration only, or were the last thirty years particularly rough on it?
Karl,
I see Jeff must have missed your question. I'll put my 2c in..
I've seen all the BU cars we have up at Branford, and although there is a lot of work to do on them, they still are certainly not unrestorable. Certainly, they're all in need of paint, at the very least.
If I recall correctly, 659's major body problem is on one of the platforms. As far as trucks and motors, that all leads into a complicated tale, because of the long and complicated history of the cars. Basically, throughout their careers, many of the gate cars had many different kinds of trucks under them at different periods in their careers. So determining the correct truck for the car depends on what time period you are trying to restore the car to. To complicate things further, Branford did not necessarily receive the cars with the correct trucks, and in some cases, trucks for cars have been swapped on the property in the process of restoration.
Although earlier in their branford lives many of these cars were stored outdoors, they all are currently either indoors, or under cover. While their storage conditions are far from ideal, they are much improved from uncovered outdoor storage like they previously had, or even would get if they were in Coney Island (which also has salt-water in the air).
We certainly realize the challenge that we have in preserving and restoring these wonderful vehicles. There are lots of things we could do, given the resources. It all comes down basically, to getting enough people and money involved in the museum to make things happen.
10/12/99
Didn't the BRT "EL" cars use the Peckham 40 trucks ?
Bill Newkirk
Karl, I see I missed your question yesterday. 659 was never
restored. It came up to the museum in the early 1960s after
being a work motor on the BMT. Some cosmetic work was done
in the early 70's ("paintbrush restoration") to make the car
presentable. The canvas roof on the car probably dates back
to the 1920s and was never replaced by NYC Transit. It was
patched in places with roofing paper (blech!). Both end
platforms have el car disease: the 8" crown beam which supports
various platform hardware rots out. One end is a bit worse than
the other. The traction motors were always marginal on that
car. The last time it ran under its own power one of the motors
blew to ground. We do have a spare motor on another truck but
it needs to be thoroughly cleaned, dried and re-insulated. The
blown motor could be repaired but at a cost of about ten thousand
dollars. Right now the truck with the blown motor is actually under
another gate car (1349) serving as a shop truck while that car's
motor truck is being rebuilt. 1349 is the most likely candidate
for becoming fully operational again (AFAIK it was never functional
since before it came up to Branford). 659 might be workable as a
control trailer but it needs a lot of body work to safely carry
passengers.
Jeff H & Steve K
I want to thank both of you for your responses to my question about 659. I'm sure that you both know that the gate cars were my main interest in NY Transit when I lived in the city 50 years ago.
I realized that the museum roster picture was 30 years old but since the car looked so good in the picture, I thought it would still be that way. I guess that pictures can be deceiving.
Karl B
10/12/99
Ten thousand dollars to rebuild a traction motor? Wow!,that's a lot of money for a museum operation that relies on grants,donations and volunteers. Can a firm be approached to rebuild this motor or any museum motors? Is Marine Electric still in business? They used to or maybe still rebuild the traction motors for NYCTA. If so maybe they can do it as a charity case for a tax writeoff.
Bill Newkirk
I'll answer both of your questions under this thread.
The BRT el cars mostly had Peckham 40 trucks. There were two
varieties, motor and trailer, the latter having a shorter wheelbase.
Some of the earliest electric cars (e.g. 659) were evidently
delivered with Brill 27G2 trucks. There is some debate about
what 1227 was delivered with. Based on articles in the Electric
Railway Journal, I believe the BRT had standardized on Peckhams
at that point. The 1300 convertibles were Peckham as delivered.
The 1400s had American Locomotive Co ("ALCO") motor trucks but
Peckham 40 trailers. The 1400s became the 1600 ("Q" type) A&C
cars. After the Composites were scrapped, their trucks (which
were not the original trucks but the 1915 hybrids that the IRT
put under them for elevated service) wound up under the Qs.
This had the unfortunate side-effect of making the cars a little
too high and so the roofs were cut down when they were rebuilt.
The Peckham trailer trucks remained but the ALCO motor trucks were
given to the 1300s. In turn, their Peckham 40 motor trucks wound
up under some of the older equipment.
The Peckham motor trucks were generally equipped with Westinghouse
50L motors and the ALCOs with WH 300s. The latter is a more modern
design and packs more HP (190 opposed to 150) in about the same
space, which is HUGE in either case. The blown motor is a 50L and
to fix it means a complete armature rewind. We've had Marine
Electric do some motors in the past as well as Stone-Safety Electric.
They don't do it for free. If they did they'd have a nation full
of railway museums knocking at their door! The price of $10,000 is
based on the large size of this armature. We've had streetcar
motors done for about half that. The price is not excessive,
when you consider the cost of the skilled labor needed to do it
and the price of the copper wire.
Just to emphasize a point, you must also consider that the TA rebuilds hundreds of identical motors every year, and can get volume pricing. Our museums have to get a single motor rebuilt, often without full specs, so the rebuilder has to examine the original windings and adapt the available materials to the application. Seashore has a good working relationship with Electricmotorworks in Portland, and gets reasonable pricing and much follow-up support. They normally do AC motors but can handle DC also. We hooked them up with the MBTA, and they are bidding some of their work.
There have been many postings, at times over the last few years, about the Manhattan Bridge and 63rd. St. connections. Many commenters have information and/or opinions, but it would be nice to find out what the official MTA information is on the Manhattan Bridge and 63rd St. connections.
Specifically, for the Manhattan Bridge, does it include whay the work is being done, by whom, the need for this long time to complete the work, the cost to-date, what remains to be done, estimated time of completion and when revenue service will start using it, etc. Any information from any other responsible agency(or agencies) would also be appreciated.
For the 63rd. St. connection, when the work began, the cost to-date, what has been done and what remains to be done, and estimated time of start-up with revenune service to/from Queens.
Thanks,
Mike Rothenberg
You might want to contact the NYC Department of Transportation about the Manhattan Bridge. NYC Transit's a guest on the bridge.
David
[Specifically, for the Manhattan Bridge, does it include whay the work is being done, by whom, the need for this long time to complete the work, the cost to-date, what remains to be done, estimated time of completion and when revenue service will start using it, etc. Any information from any other responsible agency(or agencies) would also be appreciated.]
Hey, I'm on the technical advisory committee of a study of the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges, and I don't even know what is going on. The last plan I heard had the H tracks open, and the A/B tracks closed, in 2001, and the A/B tracks reopened in 2003. At that point the bridge would be "fixed," but would require ongoing reconstruction indefinately. I think the Willie B is supposed to be "fixed" as soon as it is painted.
I guess no one will really know until the latest fix is completed, and the twisting, metal fatigue and cracks either do or do not recur. That, of course, will be when the current Mayor and Governor are out of office. I wonder if yet another administration can duck after these.
Think of the Manhattan Bridge as New York's Money Pit.
I prefer the term "Infrastructure Vietnam." As in Vietnam, once they decided to go in they were unwilling to pull out because to do so would be to admit all that had gone before was wasted. Everyone at NYC and NYS DOT knows that if they came out today after hundreds of millions of dollars and said the bridge had to be replaced, heads would roll. As it is, maybe they can retire before the S__T hits the fan.
In other words, before the bridge tumbles into the East River.
In the new NY Div. Bulletin, ERA, there is a list of planned service diversions through 2000.
There are a couple to start in October 2000 which would require trains which use the 53rd Street tunnel to reroute via 63rd Street.
So unless I'm somehow misreading the list, it would seem 63rd Street will be ready to through-route in less than a year.
Is this info online?
3TM
Gerritsen Av. Transfer available to the B31 lower level. The next station will be E.36 St. Transfer available to the B2 lower level. Stan Clear of the closing doors.......
There is a picture of gate car #659 in the museum roster on this site. This picture reveals a small round disc at the ceiling level of the end platform close to the second vertical bar. In this picture the disc is almost directly over the woman's head. It was always my impression that this was a recepticle for a jumper cable and it was used when the car was coupled to a non-motorized trailer (200 series car). The jumper cable would provide current for the lights in the trailer.
Over the last ten years I have had several discussions with another former New Yorker who says I am wrong and that the trailer got its lighting current through the coupler.
I know he is wrong, but the big question is, Am I right?...HELP!
I just located that picture. Karl, you are correct.
There is a socket on the BUs which would be
located just over the woman's head. It is a cast
iron box with a hinged cover. Inside is a single bronze
pin. It is connected to the 600V circuit of the car through
a 50 amp fuse. When making up trains of gate cars with trailers,
a jumper cable would be used between the trailer and one of
the adjacent motor cars to provide heat and lights. That's
the Brooklyn cars, which all used low-voltage trainline controls
with 7-point jumpers located under the anti-climber.
On the Manhattan cars high-voltage controls were used with
10-point jumpers and a separate single-point jumper for auxilliary
power. These were all located under the anti-climber.
None of these cars transmitted electricity through the coupler
proper...they all used sockets and jumpers. The first cars to
have electric portions on the couplers were the AB standards.
Thank you Jeff, I am going to print your answer as well as my original question, and mail them to my friend. I thought I remembered that jumper correctly. I'll tell you, it feels good to be right for a change. Thanks again!
10/11/99
With a gorgeous day on hand,I thought I would take advantage of my day off and bring a camera along. My trip started on the (Q) train from 34th St & 6th Ave. Took that to Church Avenue and changed for a (D) to Beverley Rd. There I shot passing (Q) expresses and caught the nice job of the restoration of the station head house. Took a (D) to Newkirk Avenue (where else?) for lunch.Took northbound (D) to Cortelyou Rd for more of the same. With the sun changing angles,I headed to church Ave. for a southbound (Q) making express stops. At Church,what appeared to be R-68's coming into the station was indeed that. A four car train dead heading with front signs exclaiming "Not in Service" and side signs,"(S) Franklin Ave./Prospect Park". The numbers were , S2923,2922,2920,2921N. The express run of R-40 slants were delightful. At Ocean Parkway,the 4 car R-68 consist was waiting on center track for us to leave. Trip continued to Coney Island for transfer to (N) to check out those southbound (B)'s using the resignaled express track. The 4 car R-68 passed us on an empty (N) track. There was a couple of employees on board,possibly to be trained when service starts up and the virtues of OPTO. The subway maps on my R-40 slants (N) had the September 1999 map showing the Franklin Shuttle and the new Botanic Garden/FRanklin Ave. connection! Also the map proclaimed "Reconstruction complete,open Oct.3,1999".
Then came the announcement,"Due to track work,we will be making express stops to 59th St".We left Stillwell and up the northbound express track we went. The trip from 86th St to 8th Ave. was 9 minutes and of course we went express up 4th Ave. You should have been there,"Sea Beach Fred". IT was sunny,it wasn't summer but it was special. OH Fred,the Sea Beach line says hello and misses you much !!
Well,I'm vacation next week,so let's hope the weather is bright and sunny. Something tells me I'll be shooting those REDBIRDS in the Bronx!
Bill Newkirk
Ahhh yes, Beverley Road. The Coney Island-bound platform makes for some fine picture taking. Nice view to Church Ave and Newkirk Ave.
--Mark
Its also fun roaring through that station on a Q train as you gently come around that curve.
I remember that curve before the welded rail was put in. Heading toward Brighton Beach, just as you approached the Beverley Road overpass, the train would lurch violently from side to side before the straightaway to Newkirk Ave. It didn't matter what type of subway car you were on - they all seemed to lurch similarly. As a kid I always thought hte train would derail on the spot!
--Mark
I always thought Cortelyou was a better spot, and how about Ave H ast the trains go up and down the hill to Newkirk?
10/11/99
Spotted at Church Ave on the (D)(Q). 4 car consist of R-68's deadheading south with a couple of employees. Side signs signed up (S) Franklin Avenue/Prospect Park. Car numbers were S2923,2922,2920,2921N.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, that's a good sign that things are heating up for the start of service on the Shuttle.
I'll keep my eyes focused for the removal of barricades by Franklin on the A/C during tomorrow mornings rush.
Doug aka BMTman
Keep us posted. I hope to examine every station and Pseudorailfan (R-68s, you know how they are) the whole line.
BTW, I've decided to stop announcing the destination on my fantasy routes, it keeps people surprised, especially on the wild and wacky routes I have planned.
This is Linden Boulevard
The next stop on this 3 will be Flatlands-Vandalia Avenues.
I can't stand the suspense..............
Neither can the Manhattan Bridge.
RIM SHOT!!!
Doug; It was good to see you at Branford this weekend. In the hustle and bustle I was unable to give you an answer about the surviving SIRT cars. In 1971 the MTA took over the passenger operations of the Staten Island Rapid Transit Railway and established the Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority. The remaining 48 motors were transferred to the MTA and subsequently scrapped in 1973 with three exceptions; 366 and 388 were stored on the Travis Siding, 353 was still at the Clifton Shops as late as 1978 but was subsequently moved to Travis. Somewhere along the line the Trolley Museum of New York acquired title to these cars but were not able to move them so that by 1993 car 366 left for Seashore Trolley Museum in November of that year and is there now as verified by Mr Todd Glickman. Branford as you know acquired 388 and we both know it is there. Car 353 was de-accessorized (did I spell it right) from the TMNY collection and when last I heard (May 1994) was still at Travis.
There was a fourth car that was preserved and that was trailer #508.
This was one of a group of thirty cars (25 mtrs,5 tlrs) transferred from SIRT to the NYCTA in 1953. The five trailers never ran in passenger service on the TA. Car 508 was acquired by the Trolley Museum of NY sometime in the late 70's or early 80s and moved to Kingston where she served as a Visitor's Center/Gift Shop up until November 1991 when she was destroyed by a fire.
I have additional info on all the SIRT cars so please e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com and I'll send you what I have.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think the word you were looking for is "de-accessioned".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: Thanks; I'll have to look that one up in my Funk and Wagnalls.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The move to deaccession the two SIRT cars was made around the April board meeting at TMNY. Since no offers were made to Mike Hannah or anyone else at TMNY, it is likely that the cars will get cut up on the spot as Con Ed has closed that site months ago and the real estate developers who took over demanded the evacuation of these cars.
Is there someone who can get me on that site, to take some pictures of those cars before they get sliced up?
I've known they were there for years, but they moved from where I used to see them.
-Hank
Speaking of SIRT cars - I read somewhere they had a predisposition to catch on fire, or at least quite a few did - anyone know about this?
Phil: I don't know if the cars themselves had a predeliction to catch fire but the car fleet certainly did suffer from it. Five cars were destroyed in the 1927 fire at Tottenville,eight at the St George fire of 1946 and seven at the Clifton fire of 1962. Equiptment wise the Clifton was the most devastating since after the sale of thirty cars to the TA and two others destroyed in the South Beach derailment SIRT was left with 48 cars which was very close to the number required for peak service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As it turned out, the TA scrapped the ex-SIRT cars once the R-27s and R-30s had arrived in sufficient numbers. They could have sold the cars back to SIRT, when you stop and think about it.
Larry, thanks for the info on the surviving SIRT cars.
BTW, in my teens I used to photograph equipment at the 36th Street yards (this was in the mid-seventies). There used to be a SIRT car parted there on a siding in MOW yellow. It looked as though the yard gangs were using it as a tool shed or operations headquarters. I never got a shot that indicated it's ID sign, so I don't know if it was any of the cars that were saved.
Doug aka BMTman
10/11/99
This was a "controlled trailer" that eventually was acquired by the T.M.N.Y. and years later was torched by vandals in Kingston. This car actually burned up TWICE. First there was a fire on NYCTA property in 36th St yard,of which I have interior shots of,and the final fire that destroyed it totally in Kingston. Millens steel,across the street from the T.M.N.Y. was called on to cut up the car on site.
Bill Newkirk
Hold on. I think the car you refer to is actually two separate incidents with two different cars. Car 501 was being used at 36th Street Yard until the fire which put it out to pasture and R16 6421 came in to replace it (about 1983? Check an ERA bulletin). Car 508 was TMNY's trailer that got torched while over there, in the early 90s.
-Stef
Jeff: I realize that this is last minute notice but I plan on being in Brooklyn tomorrow to check out the Broadway El at Lexington Av as I'm sure thre must be some evidence left of the connection to the Lexington El if only in the form of special steel work. I don't know what your work schedule is or if I could reach your precindt by phone from the station, but maybe we could meet to check it out.(I understand that your precindt is in the area) If you read this please post or send me an e-mail at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com.
Larry
I'm not sure what I'll be doing tomorrow, but let me know what your findings are. I haven't found anything. I thought I once saw a different pattern in the metalwork but then discovered the same at other intersection.
I was wondering if the Branford guys could let me know what has gone on down there. One of my "pet peeves" at Seashore is that we have had the same cars on display in Riverside and Highwood for years. I can't tell you how long I have "been on the soapbox" that we ought to rotate some "fresh" exhibits in from the back. We are going to try again this off season, but I was wondering how it has been done at other museums. Have exhibits been "rotated" down there? What about other museums??
Thanks.
Jeremy
The cars at Branford are packed pretty tightly into the barns
just like Seashore. Indoor storage space is a valuable
commodity. Rotating displays becomes a complicated exercise
because cars come in all different shapes and sizes. Since
I've been operating at Branford, the cars in Barn 1 haven't
changed much...mostly because they were selected to tell a
specific story. On the other hand, the cars in Barn 3, which
is the other public barn, have changed every few years. And
of course the cars on the shop floor can change daily!
This weekend was a real SubTalk get-together. It was my pleasure
to meet so many online personalities in realspace.
We had a total of 10 new members who took up our offer to
study the controller handle in more detail. All were either
SubTalkers or SubListeners. I gave subway car lessons to 9
of the above, the 10th took up our offer on something, in a way,
more exotic: Third Avenue Railways #629. All of my "students"
reported it was their first experience running such equipment,
and all did very well. Saturday's lessons were on the R-17
which is pretty easy to pick up. Sunday it was drizzling all
day and the R-17 had to stay inside since it is in the middle of
a paint job. The lessons were given on a train of AMUE equipment
(R-9 and Lo-V).
SubTalker Thurston got dirty and learned a little bit about
emergency subway car maintenance (I had him repair an air
leak that was immobilizing H&M car #503) and DifCo cranes (he
assisted our track department moving ties).
A few people have asked when else we run the heavy stuff and
why never on weekdays? We are considered an industrial electricity
customer and our power bill is based on actual usage plus peak
demand charges. The demand portion is only measured Monday-Friday,
and a demand peak one day increases our base rates for the entire
billing month. Therefore, it is prohibitively costly for us to
run rapid transit equipment on weekdays, other than switching it
around in the first point only.
The next scheduled operation of subway/el equipment will be Members
Day in the spring. Those of you who've joined the museum will of
course read all about it in our newsletter. Members Day is another
opportunity to take a guest run, although usually the demand is
so great that we can only accomodate 1/2 of a one-way trip, as opposed
to the complete 1.2 mile one-way that our students took this weekend.
Till then, if any of our new members would like to come up and
volunteer, please feel free to contact me via email.
It was great day even in the rain. My wife enjoyed the experience and talking with fellow enthusiasts also.
Thanks Jeff to you and your crew for making this possible and to relive a bit of history.
Paul Polischuk - ( A Sublistener )
My thanks to everyone for making my run at the controller of #629 a most pleasant experience. Next time I'd like to give #1001 a shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heard the above annoucement and was greeted by two R68's at Prospect Park during this morning's AM rush. SERVICE ON THE FRANKLIN AVE SHUTTLE HAS BEEN RESTORED!!!
GREAT NEWS! Lou, notify me when you want to hook up.
Tomorrow afternoon?
Doug aka BMTman
Sounds good to me, but the weather might not agree. I'll email ya ASAP, pretty busy right now, 10am meeting....
Are you sure?
I rode the Q to Prospect Park and the white signs were still on the wall and the station. I didn't see any train.
According to the daily train operator assignment sheets for Tuesday, a large number of train operators had to report to the Franklin Shuttle to qualify for the route. There was a sufficient number of OPTO qualified people to give the TA a "pool" of t/o's if needed to replace the regular guys/gals who picked the line as their assignment.
Was there twice today (Tuesday), 4PM & 11:30M It is STILL CLOSED!!!!!
Yup, the conductor was wrong. The train on the shuttle track is doing qual's for OPTO T/O's. Bummer
Can someone recommend some good hotels to stay at near Central Park?
(Hotels near Central Park).
You've logged on to "Subtalk," not "Personal Jet Talk." From the point of view of anyone who would choose a subway train over a taxi or limosine, there are no good hotels near Central Park, because their prices are so high and the money could be better spent elsewhere. One could argue that due to the shortage, there are no good hotels in NYC.
The best hotel for a Subtalker would probably be the new Marriot in Brooklyn: its right over the Jay St Borough Hall subway station, just five minutes from Lower Manhattan and 15 -20 minutes from Midtown by train. And $200 per night cheaper than those luxury hotels on Central Park South.
Thank you, Mr. Littlefield. The price and locale sounds good. I plan on being a subway ridin' fool by the time this trip is done.
No Personal Jets here. Just need a taste of "real" NYC (other than a movie).
Anyone else out there agree with Larry?
Most of us, I suspect. I've never stayed there - when I didn't live close enough to go home I stayed wherever corporate put me - but Larry knows that area as well as if not better than the rest of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon-ne-mouse, I am probably going to go with Mr. Littleton's advice: on to the Marriot.
By the way, I hope the Yankees take it all, esp. after defeating MY TEXAS RANGERS***
I wondered if Metroplex referred to the DFW area, and I guess it does. Speaking of the Metroplex, how are the transit plans, including the proposed connection to the airport, moving along.
Metroplex=DFW...
So far the system connects around the Dallas area and to Irving. Fort Worth is preparing to spend money for their part, but Arlington (home of the beloved, yet NYYankee shell-shocked Texas Rangers) is dragging its feet. The airport growth seems to never end.
Of course, Arlington, Tx. is still the largest city in country without rapid/mass transit. There's a lot of talk without much substance.
The excitement mounts as we prepare for our visit to the Huge Apple.
I'm gonna read as much as possible so I can manuever thru the subway maze.
My wife thinks DFW is such a wonderful airport that she will go 1000 miles out of her way to avoid changing planes there. Unfortunately, when she went to Nevada on the 1st speed was of the essence (she was trying to get there in advance of our newest grandson - he won the race by two hours) and the other connections were much worse. Most connections seem to be from one extreme of the airport to another. Fortunately, I've managed to avoid it - Salt Lake City seems to be where I end up, and that airport makes sense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Of course, Arlington, Tx. is still the largest city in country without rapid/mass transit. There's a lot of talk without much substance.]
And Phoenix is the largest city in the *world* with no mass transit service on Sundays.
Hey, if you're looking for a hotel by Central Park I assume money is no object, so you might as well go for the best- The Plaza
You didn't mention what price range you were looking for... My own price range is about as low as low gets, and I managed to find a half-decent place not too far from Central Park during my most recent visit this past summer. Of course, "half-decent" meaning I didn't have to step over any passed-out winos or dead bodies to get to my room.
It's called the Amsterdam Inn, and is located on the northwest corner of Amsterdam and 76th on the Upper West Side.
Positives: It's only two blocks west of the park, and is easily reached by the 1-2-3-9 trains at 72nd / Broadway and the B-C trains at 72nd and CPW. Room rates begin at about $75 a night for a single -- Not bad for that part of town. The facilities are also fairly clean and well-kept.
Negatives: It's a "Euro-stlye" inn, meaning there's a shared bathroom down the hall. Somebody else using the facilities? Gotta hold your water for a bit. Rooms are approximately the size of my walk-in closet here in Chicago, and they only accept cash or travelers checks. No need for a wakeup call, as there is a large construction site directly on the other side of 76th. Work starts promptly at 7 AM.
It ain't the Waldorf-Astoria, but it's in a good location and provides a decent place to crash if you're on a tight budget. Plenty of food choices in the area -- There's an excellent little bagel shop that serves great coffee right up the street... Can't remember the name offhand but it's on the west side of Amsterdam around 78th or so, across from a playground if I remember right.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Thanks, David. I am looking for a big double-bed situation to split the price of a room. I sent you some email, also.
One vote for The Brooklyn Marriot, The Plaza, and The Amsterdam.
If you're willing to pay a little more, thanks to a legal hassle between the current, former and potentially future owners of the St. Moritz on Central Park South, rooms were going for as little as $169 dollars through the Hotel Reservations Network or Quikbook earlier this year.
Not cheap, but considering the location and what it's neighboring hotel, the Plaza, charges for a room ($169 might get you a closet), a pretty low price.
There is a subway entrance to the N and R trains built right into the side of the Plaza Hotel on Central Park South. Does anyone know if the subway can be accessed directly from the hotel without having to go outside?
[There is a subway entrance to the N and R trains built right into the side of the Plaza Hotel on Central Park South. Does anyone know if the subway can be accessed directly from the hotel without having to go outside?]
Only by means of an entrance restricted to hotel employees.
Is this employee entrance at the level of the entrance on the side of the hotel because I have noticed a door in the stairway as you decend from the street, or is the entrance in a completely different location?
[Is this employee entrance [to the Plaza Hotel] at the level of the entrance on the side of the hotel because I have noticed a door in the stairway as you decend from the street, or is the entrance in a completely different location?]
It's the one you noticed.
There used to be a Day's Inn on West 57th St. near 10th Ave. The name was changed to something else, but I think it is still there. I don't know what the rates are, but I'm sure they are a LOT less than the Plaza and its brethren, but still a good deal more than most Day's Inns.
That hotel is now a Holiday Inn, and is no bargain - usually close to $200/night. It's next door to the CBS Broadcast Center (TV and network radio, but NOT WCBS Newsradio-88 - we're still on W. 52.).
$200 for a Holiday Inn shows why it is so important for NYC to get more hotels. In most cities, you can stay outside of Downtown for far less money, and drive in. In NYC, you can't drive in, but you can subway in. We need more hotels on the subway.
I told Larry Redbird about this so I'm posting it here.
Back in 1993 a friend who did trackwork for NYCTA took me on a tour of a station that most New Yorkers are not aware of: the original Roosevelt Island station of the N train line. It is an unused and dust-ladden abandoned station (w/light fixtures, tiling signage). It is located directly above the current Roosevelt Island station and was never put into service.
The reason for the unused "duplicate" station? Simple: the original Roosevelt station was made with inferior concrete. With my own eyes I saw huge cracks (more like fissures) in the roadbed and tunnel ceilings. Apparently, the station was kept quiet by those "upstairs" at MTA so as not to bring down the wrath of the press (and the taxpayers) who would lambast the management for such a major screwup. As it was, we -- the taxpayers -- ended up paying for the same station twice. That is why -- as Larry rightly surmised -- the Roosevelt Island station is much further underground than is actually warranted.
BTW, I scribbled my name in the layers of dust on the station's tunnel wall.
Doug aka BMTman
Cool story! When was the station built? Is anything visible from the N train or from ground level?
N train Roosevelt Island Station? Have I been missing something in the 60th St. tunnel or has the MTA figured out a new way to get the N to Astoria?
>>>>BTW, I scribbled my name in the layers of dust on the station's tunnel wall. <<
How did you get in there? Any photos? Because...this sounds like a job for
www.forgotten-ny.com
Don't you mean the original station on the Q line? I don't think one was ever built for the N train.
Yep, the station he's talking about is right next to the regular ststion thats open. Its behind the wall. There is a metal gate
between the two stations. I think its used once in a while to stow
N trains but never for passenger service.
David, that "mini-station" for the parked N trains is NOT what I am talking about. Although I did see that track on the same trip.
What you are talking about is a single "siding" where they store two sets of 10 car N trains (over the weekend?). There is an unfinished line there since the track goes up quite a bit and then ubruptly ends at a crude cave-like unfinished tunnel (got some shots of that too somewhere).
Is that the 63rd street tunnel business???
Doug aka BMTman
I think he was referring to Lexington/63rd, which has an unfinished station behind the walls of the present. That was built for Broadway trains running up the proposed 2nd Ave. line.
I agree with you. There is a diamond crossover on both the upper and lower levels between the T and G tracks. T tracks for 6th Avenue and G tracks for Broadway BMT and 2nd Avenue Subway which is still a pipe dream.
I presume you mean the "Q" train. Surely there was no attempt to build a Roosevelt (or Welfare or Blackwell's) Island station in the 60th St. tube used by the "N" train?
But if the 63d St. tunnel was built by laying precast tunnel sections into the riverbed, then the elevation (or depth) of the line entering and leaving Roosevelt Ave. is fixed. How would the trains get to the lower elevation of the second, duplicate station - dipping down a level and back up between the eastern and western shores of Roosevelt Island? With the LIRR level following this path a level further down? The story sounds suspect. If this is true, there should be a visible downgrade entering Roosevelt Island station and a visible upgrade leaving it. Is there?
If the station is lost then we need to find it or give it directions so it is not lost!!!
Rim shot!
IIRC, there is no noticeable grade when entering or leaving Roosevelt Island.
Dan, this station does exist. I have some pictures from the excursion. I'll have to dig them up -- it was six years ago.
They don't show much since the only available light was from the TA lanterns and my cameras flash.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm confused to which station you have pictures of. Is it on the 60th Street Tube?
I'm a work right now. When I get home tonight I'm giving my friend a call asking him the particulars since I recall us getting off at the real Roosevelt station -- walking through the tunnel (I believe the back end), crossing to that "lay up track" with N trains on it and then going through a maze of poorly lit catwalks and stairwells before reaching the "lost" station. I only did this once and I was being led in the dark through most of it.
I'll post more tonight.
Doug aka BMTman
Was it lit?
No, it was pitch black. Only light came from our lanterns and camera flash.
Kind of like South 4th St. in Brooklyn.
I spoke with my friend and I will post the details, since I was mistaken about where we were on this trip. David B. is pretty much accurate on his remarks.
I will post the details after 9pm tonight.
Doug aka BMTman
I believe it exists, but I suspect David B. has the right idea about its location - that it is next to, rather than above, the existing station. Either way, there should be some visible indication of deviation from the originally planned route in the approaches to the active Roosevelt Island station.
David B. could be right. I was unable to get hold of my trackworker friend.
I may not have entered that station by climbing or descending -- not entirely sure. I AM sure though that the reason the station was never used was due to the horrendous cracks in the concrete. That is definitely something my friend made clear.
Doug aka BMTman
Are you pulling our collective leg, Doug?
The only Roosevelt Island station I know of is on the "Q" Line. Do you possibly mean Roosevelt Avenue?
This is a double deck situation because of the LIRR level in the underriver tubes. I can't imagine realigning an entire deep level structure because of a construction error. You would simply tear out the original and redo it.
If you're serious, I'll take your word for it, but something's not right.
Or (conspiracy mode) are you Doug aka BMTman's evil twin?
I know that there is station on Hillside Avenue line beyond 179th street station called 187th Street.
Is the station completly built or partially?. Do the trains have access to it?
It's a two track station under Hillside Avenue built in 1950. Never has been open. It is beyond the bulkhead walls.
Its there the unused part of Rooselvelt Island on the Q. Take a look at the track maps on this site.
Trains certainly would not have access since there is no roadbed! Just bare concrete (cracked) flooring where the tracks would have been laid. In all other respects it is a finished station -- w/o a sign of life (no rats since no litter!) The tiled walls read "ROOSEVELT"
Doug aka BMTman
Is that station Roosevelt Avenue or is it Roosevelt Island? If it is Roosevelt Island then when was it built?
It's Roosevelt Island. I think it was built in the late 80s.
Sound like the station in service for the tunnel to nowhere. TRUE?
I was on a Transit Museum tour of never-used stations. We visited one at Roosevelt AVENUE. This station was built but never used, and is essentially complete, minus the tracking. It says "ROOSEVELT" on the walls and it is accessed through a gate at one end of the platform at Roosevelt Avenue. I am almost sure that this is the station you are talking about.
Probably. A long time ago on SubTalk we had some guy trying to convince us he was on an N over the Queensborough Bridge. This might be similar
This is Francis Lewis-Brookville Boulevards
The next and last stop on this E train is the place to be, farm livin' is the life for me! (Green Acres Mall)
I remember that guy who was convinced that he was riding the N over the Queensboro Bridge! Who knows what he was smoking on that train!
Queensboro, Manhattan, Williamsburg, HECK! all bridges look alike in the dark,
Unlikely, since the tunnel ends at 184th Place.
David
[I know that there is station on Hillside Avenue line beyond 179th street station called 187th Street.]
I worked at 179 so I can answer some of the questions: first- the station has an extended mezzanine with entrances from 174 all the way to 183. perhaps this is why the thought exists of another station.
second- if you'll look at Peter's track map book all that is past the station is a lower level and storage tracks.
And one obvious reason to believe the station doesn't exist: it isn't being used. If it existed I'm sure it would be open.
The ONLY station on Hillside Av E/O 179St station is East Williston Station!!!!!
No, Paul, Roosevelt Island. And I did make a boo-boo by saying it was on the N train line. I meant to say the current S line service to 21st St/Queensbridge.
I think I mistakingly said the N train since that was the actual train I recall seeing in one of the tunnels (see my response to David B.) on that same excursion.
Doug aka BMTman
I've seen that one before. They have tubes leading to the 2nd Avenue Subway. I think I know why they built 2 levels. Maybe they just wanted the 6th Avenue and 2nd Avenue subways to have a switch for possible emergency reroutes. They probably didn't make it 2 island platforms with 4 tracks because the 60th Street tunnel is too close. I think, I'm not sure.
Also, the walls are removable. They probably have them there so the passengers don't take the extra track as a garbage dump.
Yes, the walls at Lexington Ave. are designed to be knocked out if and when the 2nd Ave. line is ever completed.
Doug: I think that we are getting two stations mixed up here. The one you told me about was the Roosevelt Island Station on the 63 Street Line. This is a two track station with two side platforms and no additional tracks. You said that the original station constructed at this site is above it but was never used due to faulty construction if I remember correctly.
The other station is Lexington Av-63 Street also on the 63 Street. It was and is a four track station on two levels. Each level has a single island platform with two tracks. The north tracks on each level are the express leads from the BMT Broadway Line (G3,G4) and stub end in bumpers at the east end of each level. They are intended for service into the Second Av Subway going north. The south tracks on each level are for the present 63 Street Line (T1,T2)and are in use.
The confusion arises because the MTA chose to build a wall down the center island platform on each level thereby giving the appearence that these are single track stations with side platforms. I was there on openning day and walked through a door in the wall to see the other side. It is certainly possible that if the door was open you did see an N train from the Broadway Line laid up on the north tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I am NOT saying this is the station but when the trolleys (and Second Ave El) ran over the Queensboro Bridge, there was a stop , complete with elevator to what was then called Welfare island. IIRC the elevator had the first floor on top and the second, etc. underneath.
Also- there IS a Roosevelt AVENUE second station which has been discussed on this site which DOES have tile, Lighting, etc. It is located to the geographic East of the 4 track Station and has two tracks and one island platform. To get there (locked gates!) go tyo the East end of the present mezzanine. You'll see (or used to see?) a sign for the police precinct. Keep on going (for what seems at least tro be a good platform's length past the active station) and it will widen out to the second station.
Once again- I am N O T doubting you but expressing my opinion.
Subway-buff: The station that you refer to was actually on the Queensborough Bridge and was two short platforms used by the Queensborogh Bridge Railway trolleys. There was also a roadway access at this location directly onto the roof of a building which had a large elevator. This was used by ambulances to reach Roosevelt Island in the days before the Welfare Isalnd Bridge was built over the east channel from Vernon Blvd. The building was known as the "Upside-Down Building" as the first floor was considered to be at bridge level and the floor numbers got higher as you went down to ground level. It was a favorite talking point for Circle Line Tour Guides.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Subway-buff: I value your responses and appreciate your thoughts. Please don't hesitate to question me. Case in point: You just told me more about the upper level at Roosevelt Av then I knew. I try to be precise in my postings but to tell the truth memories can dim a little with time and perceptions may be altered. Since we're not talking face to face it is possible for misconceptions to arise.
Better to ask for clarification then to labor under a misunderstanding.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
That Rooevelt Ave 'station' was to be the terminal for a train from Rockaway. I visited it for the first time about 20 years ago, it was still visible as a station, except that the trackways were covered over with slabs flush with the platfoms, making a continuous surface from wall to wall. The safety nitches were visible too. All of the walls were tiled, including 'ROOSEVELT' station names.
I visited the station again in August 1999, the station area was converted into crew quarters for MOW gangs. It is now closed off with a double door, with a plaque commemorating the construction of the room in (I think 1998). Inside there are a series of doors for each groups locker room.
As to the extra station that started this thread, I think it's at Lexington, no RI. I've been in the unused side of LA too and I've also seen the unused Third Ave end of the station with provision for an exit to the street there.
The trackways at Roosevelt were not covered over in early 1997 when I was there on a Transit Museum tour.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oops. I got Lexington Avenue confused with Roosevelt Island
Department of Irrelevancies:
Did this thread set a new record for Subtalk?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Another long, exhausting, and rewarding weekend passes at BERA. There were several typical things that happened, and a few unusual things that happened. Here's my take:
Usual thing: Leave early for the trip up, but not early enough (got there at about 9, should have gotten there by 7!)
Usual thing: Some problems.
Unusual thing: Lots of problems -- I've been working up there for about 3 years now, and have found that although it requires lots of preparation beforehand, usually we can get our proposed fleet for the event working without major incident. At most, there'll be a couple of minor problems where something "acts a little funny", or such. Saturday morning, nothing wanted to cooperate with us.
My first issue was with Hudson and Manhattan #503. It was stored in the morning on 51 track, just east of line car 25, and blocking the path out for 5466 and 1689. I put the poles up on all three of the cars that need to pump up, and threw their battery and compressor switches (25 is a hand-brake car), and with the assistance of thurston and doug (aka BMTMan) on the switchwork, bring line car 25 out of the way. Then, as I walk back towards 503, I hear the sound of about 30PSI of air blowing from under the car. Hoping that it is just a valve somewhere left in the wrong position, I climb up and check the position of the brake valve -- It is set for charge, and going to lap doesn't change the noise at all. The gauge shows only about 35PSI of air, which is all the pump can do with the leak. So I climb back down and feel for the leak, and find that it is a small hole that had rusted into one of the pipes feeding main reservoir air to the coupler. The hole formed right next to where the pipe passes through
a large support beam, probably because water can collect there. I find that I can hold the air back with just my finger. Since this pipe is currently unneeded (we don't have another H&M to couple to!), I look for an angle cock nearby to cut out the pipe, but the pipe runs the length of the car, and T's right into the reservoir lines, with no angles. It's already getting a little late, so I figure I might be able to tape it up, at least long enough to get the car out of the way, but after getting the tape, I find that that won't work either. As I'm attempting this, Jeff comes by, and gets a pipe cap and some pipe wrenches, and puts thurston in charge of opening the pipe at the closest union, and capping it off.
Then, while they're working on that I went back to get 3662 out of the back, and, in a rather unusual situation, 3662 will not take power. Because 3662 uses high voltage controls, it typically is the _most_ reliable of our RT fleet, since it is unaffected by any oxidation problems on any contactors (you need a lot of oxidation to stop 600V). Anyways, I find that the line breaker is dropping out, and even holding the reset in place will only cause an arc to be formed as it drops as soon as the controller was moved..
Later, I came back and thurston had finished capping the pipe, and we charged 503 and got it into the loop. Jeff got 5466 out, and then I took 1689. As I brought 1689 over to the platform area, I noticed that it wasn't accelerating -- the main cam wasn't progressing past the first notch (switching) regardless if I had the master controller in series or even wrapped up. It turned out to just be low battery voltage. As later in the day it had returned to normal just as a result of charging itself up.
Oh yeah, next problem. Our first trip was with 1227, and then I was going to put that away and bring out 5466 for the second RT trip of the day, when I discovered that it had no air. Hmm, I don't remember killing the pump -- look around -- pole is up, because there's lights in the car, but why is there no air and no pump running.. Anyways, check the knife switches -- they're closed, next step check fuses. Unfortunately someone drove away with my tester, so I take the fuse to the shop, where our regular fuse tester is gone too (it reappeared on Sunday). Found another member (Dana B) who had a tester, and we found the fuse to have failed. So I go and get another one, and hope that there wasn't a good reason for the failure (usually is, though). new fuse, close switch, pump goes on. After a few seconds, though, it hiccoughs in a bad sounding way, and shortly after that it blows the second fuse. Since it sounded like a mechanical problem, I checked the oil level and it was good, and later, Jeff, who had
seen this problem before checked the motor brushes, and found that one of the brush holder springs had failed. So I went down under the car with a pair of needlenose pliers, a swiss army knife and some patience, and repaired the spring by re-forming the little hook that had failed. Funny how a little 1 oz spring can incapacitate a 80,000lb vehicle..
Hmm, what else -- oh yeah, the 1001 charging issue (battery voltage too high -- probably a problem in the regulation circuits), etc. Well, all is well that ends well, though -- by the end of the day, we got everything running except 3662. We would have gotten to looking into that on Sunday night, except for a little diversion at about 7PM on Sunday night which caused an additional roof-trip on 1689....
For Doug, Steff, & I, who were there from about 9 AM, these events were good for us for two reasons:
1. It was a good learning experience.
2. We were very happy to be of help in any small way we could so that Steve K, Jeff & the other regulars didn't have to spend most of the morning under cars or jumping up & down off them just to throw switches.
Mr t__:^)
Speaking of which, I hope you and Doug got home in one peace after you dropped me off on Saturday. Just a note, those guys who were interested in purchasing a Redbird were from the Illinois Railway Museum. Those folks were very curious in seeing how 6688 and others operated over Museum Trackage. If all goes well, one married pair, namely the R26 from ACF, will be preserved. It seems that ACF cars are hard to find out west.
You accomplished plenty. Could you be a future BERA car mechanic?
-Stef
I don't believe IRM has any specimens from New York; they're heavy on Chicago equipment (imagine that!) as well as the three Insull interurbans. A pair of Redbirds would certainly be a welcome addition to their collection. It would be neat to see them cruising down their mainline.
I don't see why they can't do it. According to Thusrton, IRM representatives have already started inquiring about a possible purchase with TA representatives. I've had someone say to me once, R26s 7758 and 7759 were being considered for preservation (not definite). This is actually not new news to me since I heard about it from someone (who seems credible) last year. The gentleman that was with us for most of the time on the R17 was truly an admirer of the SMEE car fleet. I personally hope for another BERA acqusition in the future. Single car IRT 'birds are a dying breed in the advent of linking those single cars and joining them semi-permanently. Certainly, future fleets aren't going to be single. Once the R33 single is pulled off the road, the IRT fleet will be 100% air conditioned.
One married pair for preservation? Why not? IRM's so huge, that they can easily accomodate the equipment.
-Stef
Married pair R-17 & R-33, probally not due to the power they would draw that way, but (as I've said here before) a R-33 single would seem to fit nicely, i.e. different mfg, quite a few visable differences that the customers could easily see AND if it were painted in World's Fair blue ... oh what a sight !
A few more events as succesful as the two NY Days were this year and maybe some of the trolley guys at Branford will come over to our Subway Buff side. After all I don't think many more trolleys are going to be avail. in the near future.
I'm speaking from a very selfish/one-sided position, since I've never been to a BERA board meeting to learn what else they plan (there are a lot of important examples of trolleys waiting patienctly for their turn to be restored)(it's also costing them big bucks to keep the bugs from eating the piles under the two bridges) ... but then I can dream & wish real hard.
It sure would be a shame if they all get scrapped :-(
Mr t
IRM already has several married pairs of Chicago's 6000-series cars, as well as a pair of 2000s, so that idea is not new to them. A pair of Redbirds on their mainline would be quite a sight.
Anything's possible.... Perhaps they can acquire sveral married pairs of Redbirds. You'll never know!!!
-Stef
Quite true. Look at it this way: IRM has something like four 4000s from Chicago, and I counted three or four pairs of 6000s when I was there in 1996, maybe more. Several were in one of the barns, and there were a few more pairs outside. They could easily run an 8-car train of 6000s over there, and there is a photo of all four 4000s on the mainline, trolley poles raised.
As for a high-level loading platform, they trucked in an entire ground level station which used to be in, I believe, Cicero, and reassembled it.
Well then, what more can you ask for? I certainly hope that Branford would have the opportunity to expand one of these days....
Branford only has a rectifier running that has limited support for the Rapid Transit Car fleet. I hope they get that motor generator that they have over at Sprague running some day which would increase the number of cars running down the line.
-Stef
Unfortunately, that reassembled station at IRM is not on the mainline itself. I believe it is accessed from the loop line on which they run streetcars. Their mainline is something. It extends for several miles and is straight, with a short double-track portion to allow trains to pass each other. The catenary is suspended by North Shore-style towers. Kind of makes you want to take their Electroliner, which looks great, out for a spin and peg it up.
Catenary or trolley wire? They do run streetcars with trolley poles, eh?
-Stef
This is an educated guess, but I believe the mainline at IRM has catenary, since interurbans are operated on it as well. The loop line has overhead trolley wire. Chicago's 4000-series L cars (4200 and up, IIRC) came with trolley poles as well as third rail shoes. In fact, Shore Line's 4280 has poles.
No, IRM's mainline is trolley
I stand corrected.
"Unfortunately, that reassembled station at IRM is not on the mainline itself. I believe it is accessed from the loop line on which they run streetcars."
Well, yes and no. The old 50th Avenue station from the Metropolitan L, Douglas Park Branch is not on the mainline, but it is on a siding with overhead wire that connects to the mainline, and IIRC they will sometimes pull their North Shore cars up to the 50th Ave. station and run their mainline trips from there. The trolley loops stops very near the station (at the concession stand -- yum!) but the trolleys are obviously not the right height to stop at the old L platform, and the trolley tracks don't run directly along the platform anyway.
"Their mainline is something. It extends for several miles and is straight, with a short double-track portion to allow trains to pass each other. The catenary is suspended by North Shore-style towers. Kind of makes you want to take their Electroliner, which looks great, out for a spin and peg it up."
Yeah, it's really impressive, especially with the electric stuff like North Shore and CRT cars, which can build up a pretty good speed on the straight track. This is probably because the track is a piece of an old interurban (Belvidere & Elgin, IIRC) that went out of business in 1930. On the weekends, IRM is almost always running (at least) two trains at a time, and you invariably have to wait at the siding, either as you go out or come in, to let the other train pass. But considering the opportunity that gives to see the other train coming at speed seemingly head on, then go past VERY close by, nobody complains. (^:
I would love to be there sometime when the Electroliner is featured on the mainline, and Green Hornet 4391 is on the loop. Much to my surprise, I found out IRM acquired several cars from CTA's private collection, most notably Blue Goose 4021 and Old Pullman 460. IMHO, it's unfortunate that only two of Chicago's PCCs have survived intact, even if 4021 isn't exactly the same as when it was built (it was converted to one-man operation in 1952, resulting in one center door being sealed). It was nice to see 4391. It looks terrific. It was signed up as a #8 Halsted when I was there; I had hoped it would be sporting 22 or 36 signs.
Speaking of the 50th Ave. station, I saw the "North Shore Trains Stop Here" sign. How often do the 4000s come out for a spin? I remember seeing them on the Evanston Express, but never rode in them.
I haven't seen the 4000s out on the track the three times I went to IRM this summer, which doesn't mean they didn't run them all those times I wasn't there, except that the North Shore cars WERE running every time I was there. I do remember riding the 4000s at least once LAST summer.
I think the "North Shore Trains Stop Here" sign is somewhat confusing, in a basically harmless sort of way: North Shore trains would not have stopped at (or even gone past) that station when it was in operation. (The "North Shore" sign is joined by a CNS&M cancellation-of-service notice in the window of the station agent's booth.) Chicago, Aurora, & Elgin interurbans DID use the Met, but the main Garfield Park line, not the Douglas Branch.
They don't have quite that many 6000 "spam cans". I was last
there a year and half ago, and they had two or three of those,
plus two of the newer 2000 series (comparable to R-32 cars).
More recently they acquired several of the "1-50s" single-unit
PCC rapid transit cars. They also have I think four of the
4000 series cars (from the 1920s). Their board has approved
acquisition of one married pair of R-26 cars (they want ACF)
when they become available. IRM has nearly 400 pieces of
equipment. They are nearly out of yard trackage to bring more
stuff in. Most of the electric equipment is inside, although
the CTA 6000s and 2000s live outside. They are presently building
a new "Yard 10" in one corner of the property to house additional
equipment and they are hoping to erect another storage shed.
IRM has an interesting fiscal policy: they assess a budgetary
charge against each piece of equipment for the cost of constructing
track space to hold it. The figure used to be $75/foot although
perhaps that has gone up.
At Seashore, we acquired two so-called "Spam Cans," 6599 and 6600, back in 1994. It cost us over $10,000 for the acquisition, including payment to CTA, transportation, insurance, etc.
As of today, they sit outside and largely untouched. (The project manager is the same person who is working on our R9s). I put a lot of time into raising funds to acquire the cars, including a substantial donation of my own. My point here is that it takes a lot more than desire or interest to get cars to a museum. It takes people, time, and money. So for everyone who says, "hey! save the redbirds!," be prepared to support your thoughts with your time and funds.
As always, valid points are made here. I'd like to see a few redbirds preserved, but how can you do that when, there's no money to back them up? Well, it's much easier to fanatsize about an acquisition, I suppose. It would be substantially easier to find a partner(s) whose interested in the acqusition of a redbird, making the purchase less difficult.
-Stef
Why not call it a day with Branford's R-17. Heck we can repaint 6398 a few years down the road. A married pair is twice the hassle. If it takes this long with the few volunteers we have to rebuild a car, why two? Those M&K paint jobs were very nice but they stripped off the lead based paint which probably preserved the R-33s which were done in house and are in better condition. I'd want to strip the A/C off altogether and put back the H2C drawheads on the #2 end with electric portions. For all that trouble just buy an R-33 single car which is ready to run, has all equipment necessary and will not require a loan to pay Con Ed.
Just a couple of quick comments, Harold:
First, I can't call it a day with the R17 because the work is not finished and I don't make up the rules for the work that takes place on the car, so talk to someone else about it. It may take a while, but that's fine. Your car isn't going to be finished overnight is it? That's all I have to say about it.
Second, What about 6398? It'll take a few years to get the car repainted, but at least you stuck by it with your partner in crime, the Transit Professional. Keep working on it and you'll reap the benefits. Before you know it, the car will be taking 600V and I'll certainly have a reason to return to Kingston.
Third and Final, The R33 single is less of a hassle to obtain than a married pair of whatever's out there. At we can at least agree on this. Unless someone's got the cash to spend, I wouldn't expect too many married pairs to be preserved. I certainly hope I can obtain spare parts with the purchase. R33 Single Ready to Run? It sounds like an HO scale train set!!!
-Stef
When I was at IRM in 1996, I remember seeing one pair of early 6000s (whose doors run straight up and down and do not blend in with the body taper; these cars were built from all-new components); one pair of later units in green and white (tapered doors, built using parts from Green Hornets); and another pair outside in silver and black. I'm pretty sure one pair had the original mercury green-croydon cream scheme with the swamp holly orange band at the belt rail.
My apologies, they do have 3 pairs.
Stef: Are you a woman? Just thought I'd ask. If so, it's great to have another lady on this website. The last one I conversed with, BX55 thought I was a real creep. I'm not and if you are a woman, great. What's your favorite train?
If he's the Stef I met at the Kingston Trolley Museum event last weekend ... he's not!
Thank You for that clarification. Yeah that was me, enjoying the day in the R16.
-Stef
Huh? Sorry if I disappointed you, but I'm a male just like yourself. As for what happened with BX55, leave that in the past. Somethings are better left alone.
Let's see: What's my favorite train? I grew up with a number of Redbirds on the IRT, so any car that adorns Redbird Paint is enough for me (R26,28,29, etc). I've always thought that the cars ran well. Mechanically the cars in question are sound. Cosmetically, well that's another story. If you've been in NYC in recent times, you'd see that a number of cars are suffering from incredible amounts of rust. I don't even know if bondo will help anymore...
-Stef
Stef: Thanks for clearing the gender stuff with me. I rode some of those Redbirds this summer when I was in New York. If they would clean and refurbish them they would be great to look at, but they did seem run down to me. No need for me to tell you what my favorite train is, is there? And you are right about BX55, though I still have a little guilt feeling about it. I could have handled it better than I did.
Was watching Sportscenter today. Rich Eisen was talking about the possible subway series. He got the travel directions right. "4 from the Bronx to Grand Central, change to 7 train to Shea Stadium." An IRT series. 4 train vs 7 train..............
3TM
Avenue Y. Transfer to the B36. The next station will be Avenue U/Gravesend Neck Rd. Transfer to the B3, B36, B44, B44 Limited on the lower level. Stand clear of the closing doors.........
Don't forget the B and the D Trains.
No R68's. R33 vs R33s or R62 vs R36. IRT SERIES.
3TM
Avenue U/Gravesend Neck Rd. Transfer available to the B3, B36, B44, B44 limited on the lower level. This is a Manhattan bound H making express stops via the Utica/11Av Express. The next station stop will be Gerritsen Av. Transfer available to the B31 to Gerritsen Bch on the lower level. Step in, Step on, Step off, Step out, Stand Clear of the closing doors.........
Bring on the Subway Series in baseball. In Atlanta there is no MARTA rapid transit line to Turner Field. Besides, the logo for MARTA is "marta" all small letters. Maybe this has significance to NYCT in capital letters. The New Yorkers in Atlanta for this evenings game is stronger than the support for the Atlanta Braves. Living in Atlanta, I'm rooting for a Subway Series. Lets go Mets!!! Then I want the Yankees to win the World's Series.
Last report, the Yankees wanted $1 billion from the city and the Mets wanted $600,000 (Giuliani doesn't seem to want the state to have the honor of paying for part of these facilities). If they both go to the series, the SOBs will just ask for more.
Then let them move to New Jersey, see how successful they are. Speaking of New Jersey, if NY adopts building height restrictions, then I hope that some real estate person builds the world's tallest building in Jersey City.
This is Avenue N
The next stop on this 4 train will be Avenue U-Kings Plaza.
This has nothing to do with the thread, but due to practical considerations, I have terminated plans for the Utica line extension to the Rockaways. The line will end at Kings Plaza.
This is 125 Street, transfer to the 4, 5, Q and V trains.
The next stop on this 6 train will be Lenox Avenue.
Im the opposite. I just extended my K line fron the KP to the Rockaways...........
3TM
This is Eastern Pkwy/ St. Johns Place. Transfer available to the 3 and 4 trains making local and express stops to Manhattan. The K on the upper level making local stops to Bergen St for the B15 to JFK. The next station will be Fulton
The Mets have to get past the Braves first. Chief Noc-a-Homa probably put a curse on them, the way they've played against the Braves during the past few years.
The number 1 door on R-68 2796 doesn't open. I've been seeing too much of this.
I totally agree with you. During the overhaul, all of the upper door tracks were replaced. What you see now is the tracks not properly adjusted. They are set to 'spec.' when we get them but it takes much tweaking to get them just right. They operate fine until a customer forces their way between closing panels and they get knocked off kilter. Withing 2 inspection cycles after overhaul, we expect to have the doors PROPERLY set.
There was an overhaul?
Actually, what else did the overhaul do?
During the 12 (SMS) Overhaul, the following major areas were addressed on the R-68s;
1. The cars were linked into 4-car units.
2. All upper door tracks were replaced.
3. The Westinghouse propulsion package was replaced with the E-Cam package.
4. The A/C Compressors were replaced.
5. The DC HVAC blowers were replaced with AC blower motors.
6. The air compressors were rebuilt. One on each 4-car link was removed.
7. The problematic NYAB brake valve was replaced with the WABCO valve.
8. Couplers and electric portions were overhauled
9. Trucks & brake units overhauled and new wheels installed.
I'm sure there was more that I've unintentionally left out...
If this is the overhaul, what is done when they send it off to get rebuilt?
I don't think it's really an overhaul in the sense that the pre-80s R-Cars went through. The TA now has a special maintainance schedule (SMS?) that functions as the preventive maintainence that the cars did not recieve during the 70s.
The replace componants that have been discovered are prone to premature failure, true wheels, rotate trucks, whatever is neccesary. This, in turn, should keep the system from having to go through the 70s and early 80s again.
-Hank
Clearly, this is an overhaul. When you replace this number of major components at one time; When you make this many modifications at one time; what else would you call it. I think if you look back at the overhauls of the 80s you'll see that the rest was cosmetic.
Funny, I noticed Tuesday in Coney Island yard outside the N line yard lead under the Belt Parkway a stack of scrap Wabco D4 compressors. Why remove any of them? The ME43 Wabco brake valves are slow enough charging. Is there a trainline main reservoir as well? Did they change the magnet valves over to WABCO as well and what pattern was there for determining the compressors to be removed?
One D-4 compressor was removed from each 4-car unit to reduce maintenance costs. The D-4 was removed from the lower numbered odd car of each 4-car set. Actually, airwise, the removed D-4 was not necessary. Keep in mind that all other contracts on the B division have 50% air compressors (R-32s to R-46).
The WABCO brake valve has a major advantage over the NYAB brake valve. On the NYAB unit, the electric self lapper is very high maintenance and prone to frequent failure. That's why the R-46 has such a high incidence of 'slow releasing' or 'stuck' brakes. Actually, the electric self lapper has failed. WABCO is not prone to the same failure mode. BTW. no other magnet valves have been replaced and there is virtually no change in the charging rates.
I have a problem in removing a compressor. Why? Those cars were slow charging even with a compressor in every car! Now, take a 4 car unit. One compressor taken out, lets suppose one is dead, or not pumping properly. How is that train going to charge?
With a Mastercard, of course.
RIM SHOT!!!
Couldn't they at least restore field shunting to those R-68s? Or at least have it kick in when climbing a tunnel grade?
What happened to the trip to visit the tunnel between Sedgwick and Jerome-Anderson Avenues Stations on the infamous 155th Street Shuttle? The NYCT days are over at BERA and now might be a good time to make a visit to the past.
10/12/99
I don't know. I guess with every weekend having some sort of activity such as NY at Branford,Harmon Open House,ERA LIRR fantrip etc. every weekend seemed booked. I think when November rolls around,the weekends will quiet down and after the leaves drop off the trees this may be the time for the tour. I haven't forgotten,neither has Mark W. Let's make a mental note next ,month to repost this and lets a get a gang together and check this out.
Bill Newkirk
Looking back to 1904, what is the total number cars used to support service on all the subway and elevated lines on the IRT, Manhattan Division of the IRT, BRT, BMT and IND.
I guess it is over 20,000 cars. WOW, WOW!!!
I somehow don't think it comes near 20,000 cars unless all subway cars up to the present are included. My guess is around 14,000 tops.
We could all do some arithmetic and look in rosters of the cars in various books such as "The Interborough Fleet" and "Brooklyn Elevateds".
Okay, here goes:
IRT cars: (from "Interborough Fleet" roster, p. 142
(I'm gonna lump all consecutive numbers....)
2000-2159 (160)
3000-3339 (340)
3342 (1)
3350-3649 (300)
3650-3699 (50)
3700-4024 (325)
4025-4699 (675)
4771-5702 (932)
Total IRT Cars gone: 2783
BMT Cars:
2000-2899 (900)
4000-4049 (50)
6000-6120 (121)
7004-7028 (25)
Green Hornet (not counted in total)
Bluebird (not counted in total)
Zephyr (not counted in total)
Total BMT cars gone: 1096
R-types:
100-1802 (1703) (R-1/9)
100-399 (300) (R44)
500-1276 (754) (R46)
1301-1625 (325) (R62)
1651-2475 (825) (R62A)
1803-1852 (50) (R-11)
2500-2924 (425) (R68)
3000-3349 (350) (R11)
3350-3949 (600) (R32)
3950-4149 (200) (R38)
4150-4549 (400) (R40)
4550-4949 (400) (R42)
5001-5200 (200) (R68A)
5703-5952 (250) (R12/14)
5952-5999 (47) (R15)
6200-6252 (53) (R15)
6300-6499 (200) (R16)
6500-6899 (400) (R17)
7050-7749 (700) (R21/22)
7750-7959 (210) (R26/28)
8010-8019 (10) (R10/34)
8020-8569 (550) (R27/30)
8570-9305 (735) (R29/33)
9306-9345 (40) (R33WF)
9346-9769 (434) (R33/36)
Total R-types: 10,161
IRT Cars: 2,783
BMT Cars: 1,096
R-types: 10,161
Total: 14,040
Note I did not include the BMT experimentals, nor the "Q" cars. The
original post said "cars since 1904", so that's what I tried to count. I am sure I missed some somewhere -- can anyone add to the list? Somehow I feel I'm missing a shitload of BMT cars, 10,96 doesn't seem like enough (though a lot of those listed were multi-section or articulated....)
Why start with 1904? There was around 35 years of rapid transit in New York (and in the City of Brooklyn) before the underground route opened in Manhattan. And lots of the cars operating before 1904 ran for many years afterward, no?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I think the emphasis here is on subway lines. At least that's the impression I get.
P. S. 3000-3349 and 1803-1852 were R-10s; the 1800s were renumbered into 2900s in 1970.
Just got back from Philadelphia where I went on a trip with my daughter to see her boyfriend play football for the Univ. Of Penn, abd did a lot of sightseeing. It was very enjoyable. I got to ride on the Philadelphia subway, but what is ironic is that is consists of two lines, the Blue and Orange (ironically my favorite colors.) The Orangew line runs completely on Broad Street, which they tell me is the longest street in the US. It is all underground. The Blue line runs from the 69th Street terminal with numerous railroads transfers, to the north suburbs of Philly. The latter is elevated at the beginning and conclusion, and is subway for most of the middle part of its route. I found the lines to be clean and modern but couldn't understand why there were only two lines. There are surface and subway trolleys but they are of short duration. Still I was impressed with the cleanliness of the stations and I saw no sign of any rats. I would welcome any info any of my colleagues have on this subject.
Glad you enjoyed our subway system. It is small compared to New Yorks. But it is a pretty nice system. The cars that you rode on, on the so-called Blue Line which by the way isn't really waht they call that line. In Philly they just call it the "EL". But those cars are brand new. They are the infamous M-4 cars which SEPTA waited forever to receive. The Orange Line is simply the Broad Street Subway. SEPTA tried that color scheme years back but it never caught on. You should check out the SEPTA section on this website. It is very good.
The rats are there - trust me. Maybe not as plentiful... Mice are far more common. See 'em all the time down there.
15th Street on the El.
There are rats a' plenty down there!
Fred:
What did you think of the performance of the cars on the "EL". They are brand new, with a woman's voice with the station stops. SEPTA is still shaking the "cobwebs" out of them, but I still like them a lot.
The front "railfan seat" is outstanding!
The Broad St. cars are from 1984 and you have to look thru the smoked glass to see out the front. Not too much fun! They need the full width cab for the "OPTO" operation. The "EL" cars have TV cameras to take care of that problem- the operator stays put. The Broad ST. line
is a real workout for the operator, jumping up and down at each stop.
Chuck Greene
I find the chimes interesting- instead of NYC's "Ding- Dong" they have a "ding-ding" followed by the "traditional" Ding- Dong. The first "Ding-Ding" is a different pitch than the subsequent.
The Broad Street trains have a round metal loop on the front which is used to allow for automatic route selection.
Chuck: I liked the El a lot. It was clean and efficient and I always like a line that runs both above and below ground----good variety. It is supposed to be called the Blue Line but as everyone has corrected me, it's not called that by anyone in that city.
It's a sure sign you're not from Philly.
And you know how we treat visitors;)
Put it this way: no one in New York calls the Sea Beach the "Yellow" line.
Isn't the longest street in the world Broadway? Supposedly, it starts at the Battery and goes all the way to Albany, 150 miles all told.
Like New York, Philly had and to some degree still has plans (dreams?) of more subways. I'm sure Bob W can elaborate but Broad Street has several placed with flying junctions and in one case a strange jog in the tracks on the SOuth end to allow for a future extension. Market Franford had a spur to the SOuth and East of the present line towards the Navy yard area (Bob- I know you can elaborate and give exact location!)and it was torn down due to low ridership.
The Broad Ridge Spur is a Philly Stubway--it was planned as part of a Center City Loop which was never finished- part of that loop is now PATCO which in part was former Bridge train-more is on the site.
Bob, help me here- but one current idea is a Roosevelt Blvd (US 1?) subway branch line. And there is/was a station under Sears. Philly also has closed passageways such as the "SOuth Concourse" aslong Market Street- There are closed stairways going down reading "To South Concourse"
Bob, I think from reading between the lines of your posts, that NIMBYs will keep it from happening. (Like Second Avenue in NYC)
I agree- while not NYC, Philly's system is nice and is interesting in the mix of Heavy Rail, (Amtrak, Regional Rail), Subway, Light Rail (trolley/ subway-surface[Green line] and bus plus some use of historic PCC cars (Welcome Line?)
Bob- Please ring in and elaborate!
There aren't any PCC's in regular service but sometimes, especially around the holidays, you may see some out.
The story with the BSS/Rossevelt Blvd. extension is that it is being studied, along with extending the El, putting Regional Rail or light rail in the median.
The NY Short line about 1/2 a mile away has also been suggested for some type of rail use.
I read an article about it and all saw no NIMBY's. Of course, there may be a problem.
The area directly diretcly over The Boulevard and Broad Street is known as Logan and has a problem with sinking houses, like recently in the northeast.
The neighborhood is now barren. Subway construction there may be tricky.
And yes, the Ridge Spur was part of a CC Loop, but most of it is now used by PATCO(there is a track connection near 8th Street station).
And as for the southern flying junction, there is an odd tunnel formation near, I believe, Snyder Avenue.
There are also two tracks to nowhere north of Broad and Erie, to the outside of the local (outside) tracks.
They may be the turnback tracks for the BSS - Erie Av. trains. I may
be wrong- Bob W.-please clarify!!!
Chuck Greene
The subway is six tracks wide for a short stretch just north of Erie. The outermost tracks rise to a mezzanine level which was built with the possible Northeast extension in mind. At present there is a 3-track yard at this level. Ridge spur trains used to turn back here when the peak-hour operation provided 8th-Market/Erie service. Now, they run to Olney or Fern Rock.
The original Roosevelt Blvd line would have gone NE from Erie Avenue to the station built underneath Sears (which is not Sears anymore) at Adams Ave. It would then have followed the electric lines ROW at Pennway Street out to Rhawn St. north of NE High School. But, alas, it never got built.
Another plan was to connect the BSS to the Reading Railroad's Chestnut Hill line (now CH East), but that was a non-starter. I used to see old signs in the eastbound Market St. stations saying Ferries-Frankford line. There used to be a spur that went off to the east then south from a point just north of the 2nd St. station that went to the Camden Ferries on the river at Market St. When the BF Bridge opened, they stopped running.
The Locust St. Subway extension opened in 1954 and was used rush hours only for trains to Camden. The rest of the time Camden trains ran only to 8th St. Then when the Camden Line was expanded to Lindenwold by PATCO, they got the Locust St. Subway, and a new separated platform was built for the Ridge Avenue Line. At one time the Locust St. subway was going to be extended to the University of Pennsylvania and Civic Center but, it never was, obviously.
Finally, the original MFSE and subway/surface tracks used to become elevated at 24 St, with 24th the first outdoor S/S stop, then MFSE's 32, 36, and 40 St. elevated stations and the trolleys running SW down Woodland Avenue after crossing the river. In the 1950s they put the whole thing underneath Market St. to 45 St. and the trolley cars under the pedestrianized Woodland Avenue to 40 St. to make the Univ. of Pa. more of a campus.
The two closed stations are Spring Garden St. (Ridge Ave), Franklin Sq (PATCO), and there is also the gone and replaced Fairmount Ave. station of the MFSE, replaced by Spring Garden St. in the center of Interstate 95. There is also an underground trolley stop on 5th St. under the entrance to the BF Bridge, but I do not think anything stops there anymore.
Philadelphia's system is extra unique in that it has:
Standard gauge commuter rail (R1-8) w/Central Through Rail Tunnel (unique in North America)
Standard gauge 11' wide subway (BSS, PATCO) with express tracks
Wide gauge 10' wide subway (MSFE) with A/B skip-stop service
Wide gauge subway/surface trolley cars with overhead wire(10,11,13,34,36) used as locals to MFSE's express
Trackless trolleys(79, 75, others)
Standard gauge Single car light rail using 3rd rail and a pull cord in almost every station to light a light to get trains to stop (100-Norristown)
Other standard-gauge suburban trolley-cars with overhead wire on private ROW (101,102)
Where else can you find this much rail diversity in one city?
You are absolutely correct, Carl. We really do have a diverse system.
When I come into town, (I live in Exton), I try to ride every type of vehicle I can. Haven't rode a trackless trolley though in long time.
I'll usually start from 69th st. on a bus to S.W. Philly (usually the 108), then ride the 13 trolley into center city.I love the snakey turns around Kingseessing Av, etc. Then I'll ride the EL & the BSS to finish off, then catch the El back to 69th St. Love that railfan seat
on the EL!
OK, I guess I can take the hint! (And you guys were doing so well with these answers!) But, if you insist...
1. Phila had very elaborate plans for rapid transit in the 1910's and 20's, but money got in the way. On the Broad St subway, as one proceeds south, you will find flying junctions north of Olney (for a proposed line to Cedarbrook/West Oak Lane, now used for turnbacks when Ridge Spur trains end at Olney in middays), north of Erie (for the line up Roosevelt Blvd, more on that later), north of City Hall (the strange jog in the line was to accommodate a branch up the Parkway, through Fairmount, along 29th St and Henry Ave to the northwest - space is waiting for it in the Henry Ave bridge over Lincoln Drive, just north of Textile College)(many people think this jog was merely to get the line around City Hall, but it isn't), and north of Snyder, where the line jogs to the west and back to the east for a junction with a line to go up Passyunk Ave to Southwest Phila). What we have left is what got built and that's likely to be it for a while.
2. The El was built as a line from 69th St to the ferry piers along Delaware Ave. When it came up from the subway at its former Front & Arch portal (gone 20+ years now, believe it or not!), it curved 180 degrees into Delaware Ave and stopped at the Market-Chestnut (PRR) and South St (Reading) ferry piers. Once the Ben Franklin Bridge was built (1926), the ferries began to decline. The Frankford El (1922) added a branch operation to the line and alternate trains ran 69th St-Ferries or 69th St-Frankford, the latter being today's operation. The ferries branch quit in 1939, replaced by a bus route. The structure came down soon afterward. Until the 11th St station was renovated, signs still directed eastbound El patrons to "Ferries-Frankford", with ferries weakly painted over.
3. You're right on the mark on the Ridge spur.
4. The often-studied Northeast extension of the Broad St subway is once again being studied. Before the line would leave the Blvd at Sears (hence the former station there) and follow the ill-fated Northeast Freeway. Today's version would operate in the Blvd median, switching to subway at station locations under one of the service drives, or the entire center segment of the Blvd (express lanes) would be depressed with rapid transit in the median. Light rail and busway alternates are also being studied. Don't look for anything quick here. NIMBY's and money will bring this one down, most likely.
4. Yes, this is our system - as a NY'er once told me, it's a nice basement layout, but it's no system. Surprisingly, the variety of services makes it very interesting. Also surprisingly, the two lines carry a whole lot of passengers and are critical backbones of the system. If you don't think so, visit us sometimes when one of the lines goes down. You'll see how disruptive things can get.
I was once waiting for a train at 13 St. when a train got stuck. The crowd swelled to proportions that are hard to imagine. Thousands and thousand of people, just at 13 St. When trains started running again, it took about 5 trains to get rid of the crowds. I waited because I knew that trains run so frequently during rush hours (like every two minutes) they would catch up within minutes.
Carl: Last Saturday I waited for 22 minutes for a Blue Line (El) train to take me downtown by the river. In the meantime, three or four trains came by from the opposite direction. And my route was heading for the main drag, not the others. Only a minor irritation as it turned out. I really like the two lines, especially the Blue Frannford El Line.
Bob--
You speak of the "ill -fated Northeast Freeway." Is that the one that was supposed to come off the Betsy Ross Bridge, or am I thinking of something else?
BTW: what point of the Boulevard do you think the NIMBY's would become a pain? I would tend to think further up (like beyond Sears, or even beyond Roosevelt Mall).
Michael
The Northeast Freeway was supposed to run along current-day Pennway Street (the one with the power lines above it) from the Boulevard near Sears to Woodhaven Road. Parts of Northeast Boulevard/Avenue exist in its right-of-way north of Bustleton Avenue.
At Sears the freeway would have tied into the Pulaski Freeway, which would have stretched from the Betsy Ross Bridge to Montgomery County. The interchange at I-95 was built partially and now some of the ramps are being completed to Aramingo Avenue.
So far, at public meetings on the Boulevard transit project, almost all civic groups along the line are wary of the prospect of transit. While formal opposition is not yet there, expect it. Surprisingly, the groups further north are warmer to the ideas than those to the south.
Broad St. is the long STRAIGHT street in the US.
Ontario's Yonge Street is the longest street in North America.
Western Avenue in Los Angeles is a lot longer than Broad Street, running from Los Feliz Blvd. in the Hollywood Hills all the way to the ocean in San Pedro.
Again, the key is "straight". Broad St is straight as an arrow from its start at the Navy Yard to its end at Cheltenham Ave (for you surveyors, I believe its bearing is N 9 deg 30 min E). This is about 12 miles in distance. There is a little caveat here, since the physical Broad St does not go through City Hall at Center Square, but its right-of-way does.
The Broad St subway follows Broad St from Pattison Ave, about 1/2 mile from its start, to Grange St, about 1 1/2 miles from its end.
I've heard it's the longest straight street, but certainly not the longest.
One of the unusual things about the SEPTA subway system is that the Market-Frankford El (Blue) Line is wide gauge (5 ft, 2 1/2 inches) and uses underrunning third rail. The Broad Street (Orange) Line is standard gauge with normal overrunning third rail; this also includes the Ridge Avenue spur. The Broad Street also looks vaguely like the IND subway because it was built at the same time (most of it dates from 1928-38)with large station mezzanines and white tilework. The gauge difference means that SEPTA must keep two distinct car fleets.
The Market Street uses the same gauge as SEPTA trolleys, which was mandated by Pennsylvania law early in this century.
How wide are the car bodies themselves? Are the widths on the two lines different?
This is Murray Hill
The next stop on this 7 train will be 162nd Street
The Broad Street Cars look to be about 10' wide - similar to R44s or R68s. The Market Street M4 cars, despite the wider track gauge, are narrower than the Broad Street but wider than IRT cars - look about 9' wide.
B-IV cars are 10' 1" wide and 67' 6" long.
The M-3 "Almond Joys" were 9' 1" wide and 55' long. The M-4's are just as wide and 2 inches longer.
The Kawasaki LRV's on the subway-surface trolleys are 8' 6" wide.
Average MFL train length is 331 feet(6 55' 2" cars) and BSS car length is 337 feet, 2 inches(5 cars of 67' 2" cars).
How exactly do you measure average legnth of BSS cars. While 5 cars is normal, I have seen many 4 and 6 car consists. And don't forget the 2 car consists on the Broad Ridge Spur (was that being counted)?
A current BSS subway car is 67 feet long, just like old BMT standards. While everyone else, including the IND and BMT went to 60 feet, then everyone went to 75 feet (Baltimore, NYC, Washington, Miami, etc.) Philadelphia kept that 67' length.
The typical Broad St consist these days is 5 cars. For some reason, this seems to be the limit. It's most likely because of the small fleet. If you wander by Fern Rock in the peak hour, you'll see very few cars not in service. Part of this is related to the downward spiral of ridership on the line in the late 60's and 70's. The former fleet was over 200 cars and the replacement fleet is 125. Once the line came back, so to speak, so did the riders, and now the fleet is too small to serve the demand. The same thing happened when the K cars replaced the PCC's on the subway-surface lines.
Most Broad St platforms, if not all, can accommodate 8-car trains, but I don't think trains of this length ever ran regularly on the line. I remember when the old cars were in service that 6-car trains were the norm. Some Ridge-Bridge "trains" ran single cars of Bridge Line stock.
The Broad Ridge Spur runs only 2 cars, and the platforms are very small. Fairmount only holds about 2 (its old platform was much longer) 8th and Market may hold about 5, except 3 cars legnth of the platform seems to be reserved for locker rooms of SEPTA workers, and is only about 1 foot wide. Chinatown could probably hold 3.
My reference to the 5-car trains was for the mainline Broad St operation. I'm not sure about the Ridge spur these days. When it was limited to midday 8th-Market/Girard service, it ran 2-car trains of K cars. I haven't ridden it lately, but I suspect that longer trains operate in the peak since they run express from Fern Rock. I'm fairly sure that the Ridge stations can accommodate 5-car trains. 8th-Market is deceiving since the platform narrows down considerably at the north end. Both Fairmount and (the closed) Spring Garden stations on the spur were built to the same dimensions as the main line and even with the closed-off portions there is probably room for 5-car trains to stop.
Not to split hairs, but the El's gauge is 5' 2 1/4", leaving it 1/4" shy of typical Pennsylvania broad gauge.
The Broad St subway used the BMT as its model, and one will note many similarities between the Standards and the 1-150 class cars on Broad St.
I hate to nitpick but...
The El doesn't leave the city to the north but to the west.
Frankford is a neighborhood in lower Northeast Philadelphia. 69th Street is in the nearby suburb of Upper Darby, not in the city and some do believe. Also, the BSS have one above ground station(actually, an embankment) at it's northern terminal, Fern Rock.
I, too, wonder why the system is so small. Cities half our area(Boston, San Fransisco, Washington D.C.) have systems twice as large as ours.
SEPTA is more interested in expanding the Regional Rail, which serves the minority of SEPTA customers compared to the CTD.
Check out my Regional Rail page
Check out my Philly subway page
That is mostly because extending Reigonal Rail would be much easier, since the places that are being studied all are on existing ROWs that are either abandoned or dedicated to freight. Extending the MFSE or BSS would require tunneling, elevating, or running lines on a ROW with no grade crossings. Also, route 100, (arguably a subway) may be extended to the King of Prussia Mall
I've heard that too. It would be convenient, but for that SEPTA would have to find other connections for the 100.
Many riders are on the bus until Center City to connect to Regional Rail as well as buses, subways and trolleys. If you take all those people to 69th Street, you'll get a crowded el(though it's much better equipped to handle crowds than a single bus is).
I would say that the Philadelphia train lines serve their job well because the city is mainly squared off streets. To get to a north-south train, one usually takes an east-west bus and transfers. Similarly with a n/s bus and e/w train. The assumption has always been a two-seat ride in Philadelphia and it works quite well. In the NE and NW corners buses head right to Olney or Erie or Bridge-Pratt or Margaret-Orthodox stations.
Toronto and Montreal are similar, you take a local route to either of the two backbone lines, again because of the straight squared-off street phenomenom. It's sort of like the internet isn't it?
...except in one little corner of the NW where there are no connections to the rapid transit system whatsoever! (The corner in which I happen to live!) The Roxborough/Manayunk area is perhaps the only portion of the city not conveniently connected to either the El or the subway. Purists will say that route 65 runs to 69th St Terminal, but for me it would mean a 3-vehicle ride, much of it in the opposite direction from which I want to travel. I have lobbied SEPTA for a route to tie into the subway perhaps at Erie or Hunting Park but nothing has happened yet. We still must contend with express bus service which is everything but this title would infer.
69th St gets them every time! I wish I had a dime for everyone who has ever argued with me that 69th St is in Philadelphia. While Phila has a 69th St (in two separate locations as well as a 69th Ave), the one with the El terminal is in Upper Darby. It's also the only numbered street in Upper Darby.
Fern Rock is in a cut, not an embankment. The east end of the station platform is on an embankment, as Nedro Ave is on a downslope just as it dead-ends into the parking lot. The subway tracks remain level. Where the buses load opposite the station entrance, the tracks are at ground level, but by the time you reach 11th St, where the tracks enter the subway portal, you (and the ground) are above them.
Our system is so small for several reasons, chief among them politics and money. Many neighborhoods did not want subways. Also, the efficiency of the surface transit system has hurt rail, since if bus or trolley service can serve the needs, why invest in rapid transit? A disturbing trend I've seen in this city is the virtual lack of service on many principal bus lines on weekends. A check of schedules shows that many major lines go to 30+ minute headways for Saturday service and even higher on Sundays. Having been on several lines on weekends, I can see why - the ridership just isn't there.
>>>>The Orangew line runs completely on Broad Street, which they tell
me is the longest street in the US. It is all underground.<<<
There must be longer streets than Broad. Broadway, I believe is longer even in the confines of NYC, the road is called Broadway all the way to Tarrytown, and the road itself continues as Route 9 till you get to Rensselaer, across the Hudson from Albany,
www.forgotten-ny.com
They could use a better way to get around. The MFL is about 80 years old, but the M4 cars are what make it look so modern. The M3 really looked old, you could tell this line was ancient. I'm not sure about the BSL. Once again, it has new rolling stock but some stations look old (City Hall).
I stay in Bala-Cynwyd and take the 44 bus when I am there. It goes on I-76 between 30th Street and City Line Avenue and Presidential Boulevard which during rush hour, takes forever. I have heard it goes on local streets when there is REALLY bad traffic and during large snowstorms (to provide more service in these neighborhoods). The R5 stop at Merion is a long walk and the R6 never comes to Bala. They need a better way to get out to Montgomery County.
I rode route 44 every day as a reverse commuter for the past 2 years. In the morning (7:25 PM westbound), expressway traffic was usually almost nothing until City Line Avenue, and traffic was okay coming home (4:00 eastbound). I find it an efficient way to get from CC to City Line Avenue, but not a good way to get into the suburbs. An even more efficient way to get either place would be to create BSS service to Wissahickon Transfer Center. This was almost done as part of the Schuylkill Valley Metro study, but was shot down by NIMBYs. Also, if the R5 was shorter, I believe that it would be a good candidate for Heavy rail i.e. PATCO extention. And yes, I agree, the R6 serves no purpose.
You guys are correct about the lousy "express" bus service available to this part of town (I know, I ride the 27 every day). But at least on the City Ave corridor you could take 65 to 69th St instead of 44 into town. Us hill-dwellers on the other side of the Schuylkill don't have this option.
I haven't heard about any extension of the subway to Wissahickon. How would it get there? If the idea is to use the Norristown (R6) tracks, there is a problem thru East Falls where the line is at grade and there are grade crossings of Scotts Lane, Indian Queen Lane and School House Lane. Wissahickon station is probably not big enough to house a subway terminal at any rate.
Part of the Metro study was a local service from Ivy Ridge back toward Center City if the Metro used the R6 tracks and the old PRR-side viaduct to cross the Schuylkill. This would leave the R6 below Manayunk unserved and thus would require a new operation to provide service to Manayunk, Wissahickon and East Falls. East Falls, which has no good, direct surface transit to Center City, is a busy stop on R6 and this is the main reason to retain some service to these stations.
I have often argued for a transfer arrangement to allow folks like me to transfer from surface transit to regional rail. At present, my "express" bus competes with R6 (and not too well, most of the time) from Wissahickon to Center City. If I opt to change modes, it will cost me the price of a Zone 2 RR ticket plus the fare I already paid on the bus. It would be better to allow me to continue my trip on the train and end the bus line at the train station. This will probably never happen. In much the same way, competing lines like 44 and 121 (although it's a weakling) could feed either R6 at Wissahickon or the Cynwyd R6 at Bala.
I could do that, but then the trip costs 2 dollars and they don't sell single tokens, so I'd end up having an extra token which I wouldn't need. Also, if I get a 44 to Ardmore, I can get a few blocks closer to my final destanation (about a block from the Edgehill Road 44 stop) instead of winding up at 54th and City.
Of course, the Paoli side of R5 calls at Ardmore station, right at the end of 44 and a much faster ride from Center City (although it's also a little pricier)...
The idea was to extend the BSS from North Philadelphia station to Ivy Ridge station along the R6 as part of the Schuylkill Valley Metro. It failed the first stage of study known as the fatal flaw analysis, not because of grade crossings but because of impact to businesses in the area, i.e. NIMBYism. All of this was written in the newsletter of the Delaware Valley Association of Railroad Passangers.
The Yankees swept the Rangers ( no surprise there), and the Mets took care of the D"Backs in four ( a pleasant surprise). This puts the possibility of a Subway Series, the first since 1956, in the realm of the possible. The Yanks play a determined Red Sox team that came back from the dead, while the Mets play their Braves tormentors ( having lost 9 of 12 to them). My heart says the Mets will win, my head says another things. We could have a Boston related series ( the Braves played there through 1952), or a NY World Series, a much better fit. Watch we get a combo of both which would be a letdown. So let's get by our TV sets and think good thoughts and bring the Mets and Yanks t hrough so we can have our Subway Series. The whole nation would be captivated by it. Keep our fingers crossed.
Or we can have 1986 rematch: Mets vs Bosox. Even a 1996 rematch: Yankees vs Braves. The latter seem likely.......
3TM
E.36 St. Transfer to the B2 on the lower level. The next station will be Fillmore Junction. Transfer avaiable to the K on the opposite platform making local stops to Riis Beach. Across the platform the K making local stops to Avenue N and Flatlands/Ave.K. On the lower level transfer to the B9, B41, B46, B100, and Q35. Stand clear of the closing doors..........
(Mets/Yanks, Mets/Bosox, or Yanks/Atlanta).
Funny how the same teams keep ending up in the series. When I was a kid, when Philadelphia, Pittsburg, Cincinati, Baltimore, and Oakland dominated baseball.
I don't recall the Mets or Red Sox in the Series recently.
This is Lenox Avenue
The next stop on this 6 train will be Saint Nicholas Avenue-Frederick Douglass Boulevard.
Not recently, but they met in 1986. The infamous Bill Buckener boo-boo.
3TM
Kings Hwy/ Avenue H. Trnasfer to the K across the platform making local stops to: Ave. D, Church, Winthrop/Clarkson, and Empire/Remsen. The B6 and B7 on the upper level. The next express stop will be Eastern Pkwy/St Johns Place. Transfer available to the 3 and 4 trains local and express trains. The B14 to Spring Creek, B17 to Canarsie and the B45 to Downtown Bklyn on the upper level. Stand Clear..................
I remember the 1986 series, well not remember really, but I know of it.
This is St. George Terminal, transfer to the V.
The next stop on this E train will be Jersey Street.
I remember it well. Ditto for 1969. Tomorrow marks the 30th anniversary of the most amazing sports story ever. BTW, tomorrow is William (Mr. R-10) Padron's birthday. Happy birthday, William!
There was a Bill Buckner joke which hit the comedy club circuit after the '86 World Series:
Did you hear that Bill Buckner tried to commit suicide?
He stepped in front of a semi and it went between his legs.
Rim shot!
With the Yankees and Red Sox squaring off, I can only imagine what is going on at the UConn campus in Storrs, CT. Wouldn't be at all surprised if a few fistfights have broken out. You could split it right down the middle between Yankee and Red Sox fans when I was there.
Suppose the Mets and Yankees do reach the World Series.
What kind of additional service might NYC Transit provide?
--Mark
It isn't going to happen, so you don't need to worry - sharp tomahawks will see to that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Two words: Bobby Thompson
Yeah, maybe the Mets could sign him up.
Anon e mouse: You're right and right now having to write this and admit it to you makes me sick but the truth sometimes hurts. The Mets have noodled around and let opportunities slip from their fingers. You can't do that against a good club.
In other words, they've flushed their chances down the toilet. That's what you get for playing in Flushing.
I couldn't resist borrowing this line from Fiddler on the Roof:
May the Braves start itching in places they cannot reach. Amen.
Well, so much for getting the topic on track :)
--Mark
Let's just say it looks as if the 7 won't be in the World Series picture. Hopefully, the 4 will be.
fromw ho you speak to(either a shuttle bus driver or who is working at the station), the shuttle is supposed to be up and running with 2 days or the end of the month. today i saw the R68 on the shuttle track, nobody on it, but its there. keep me informed if you guys here more
Just got back from there..........STILL CLOSED
i keep seeing R142 due in Novmeber. which line are they going to and when exactly are they due..help help
The new date is Dec.13. They will probably run On the Mo.2,5 Lines. No.7 will get the R142 OR 62A.
Also that my birthday.
That's the day I graduate from college!!!!!!!!:):)
3TM
Fillmore Junction. Transfer available to the K on the opposite platform making all local stops to Riis Beach. Across the platform, transfer available to the K making local stops to 34St/Javits Ctr via the Utica Ave local. Stop such as Avenue N and Flatlands Av/Ave.K. On the lower level the B2, B9, B41, B41 Limited, B46, B46 Limited, B100, and the Q35. This H train is now making express stops to 34St. The next express stop will be Kings Hwy/Avenue H. Transfer available to the K making local stops. On the upper level, the B6 and B7. Step in, step on, step off, step out, stand clear of the closing doors............
The R142 and R142A's will be delivered in December before the new millenium.
10/12/99
[The R-142's and 142A's will be delivered in December before the new millenium]
Won't there be a period of non revenue testing before they enter passenger service?
Bill Newkirk
(9th Avenue station..change upstairs for West End service to Times Square.....Culver-5th Ave train to Park Row , watch the closing gates!...[squeak-squeek]...)
I can't wait for the R-142s. Hopefully they'll pull off the nice rearrangement necessary to kill the R-33 singles before it starts getting hot again.
Forgot to mention the transfer to the 2 and 3 at Lenox.
This is Saint Nicholas Avenue-Frederick Douglass Boulevard, transfer here to the A, B, C and D
The next and last stop on this 6 train will be Broadway, where you will be able to transfer to the 1 and 9.
Yeah, about 13 months before.
Did you hear the next consumer version of Windows is code-named 'Millenium'? You know why?
So Microsoft has 1000 years to deliver it on-time.
-Hank
I hear the R142 will be delivered to the Seashore Trolley Museum to compliment the SOAC.
I hear the R142 will be delivered to the Seashore Trolley Museum to compliment the SOAC.
HUH? First of all, I hope that R142s have a long and useful life on the NYC subway system before they are delivered to any museum. Now if you were referring to the R110s, there is no such plan, as far as Seashore is concerned. Any acquisition must be sponsored by a member of the Museum, and all costs associated with the acquisition (preparation, transporation, storage, etc.) must be paid or pledged up front. Also, a curatorial plan must be developed. All of this must be approved by the Board of Trustees.
With our current logjam at Seashore, we have no room for another hand flat, no less a subway train!
Yes, I know this has been discussed to death but I think the rubber things on the ends of the doors, at least on the Lex should be replaced with sharp steel blades. To hell with the ASPCA and their complaints.
OK, that ASPCA comment was cruel and insensitive to all our furry and feathered friends.
I think you mean the ACLU, who don't have ACLUE as to what a pain in the a$$ it is having people jump in the middle of THE CLOSING DOORS.
No. Much more fun to have doors that close up and down, so we can watch everyone do head-first dives into the cars.
How about swinging doors? Remember the closing credits of Get Smart, where Max turns around only to have those swinging steel doors slam shut in his face?
I have noticed in every subway car that near each end is a small square (in some cases round) metal plate attached to the floor. It does not have a pole attached. Why is that plate there-is it to attach the trucks to the car?
I believe it is for truck center pin.
It's somewhat also known as the "Jesus nut", and it's purpose is to secure the draft gear to the car body. The coupler hangs from the draft gear.
If that nut comes off so does the coupler, with obvious results.
That plate only covers the nut, correct?
And it's called the 'Jesus nut' because?
-Hank
Yes, and BECAUSE if it fails your train will have a major accident. That nut is the sole bearing for all intercar loading. there is a guide under the floor, but it's not meant to hold up the weight or to take slack, or buff loads. It can take up to 200,000 Lbs. I believe.
The metal plate covers the center casting pin which is the swivel point of the truck under the carbody. To allow for free rotation of the truck, I am pretty certain there cannot be a nut here, otherwise it seems that it would be possible to separate the truck from the carbody, with really obvious results. Your statement also seems to point the way to this: If I knock off the coupler when adding up cars, I have effectively knocked the carbody off the truck.
Trucks are not fastened to the car body. They are held inplace only by gravity. The one technical exception is the R-68 where the trucks are still held in place by gravity but the r-68s also have safety hangers that will hold the trucks to the car body (in case gravity fails?).
Or if the first car goes past the bumper at the end of an elevated structure and drops the truck onto the street. A BMT standard did just that once on Jamaica Ave. at 168th St.
I think I saw a picture of that in 'Subway Cars of the BMT'
-Hank
How much does a truck weigh?
I forget exactly, but it's around 9 tons, the #1 truck weighing in a bit more.
Put it this way: the trucks account for about half the weight of a typical New York subway car.
I never heard that one. It wasn't in Fischler's book. When did that happen?
The center casting is held onto the underframe with four bolts. None of which is long enough to penetrate through the car foor. The center casting fits into a recepticle on the truck bolster. As Steve said, It's nothing more than gravity that keeps it there. I have added cars at speeds high enough to break shear pins, and have never had a truck come out from under a car.
The plate covers the draft gear nut and nothing more.
I took a ride on the J today to check out the former junction at Lexington Av and Broadway. I'll cover that in a separate post. There was a GO in effect whereby route J trains from Manhattan were wrong-railing over the Willy B thru Marcy before resuming there proper track. The M was only running as a shuttle between Metropolitan and Myrtle. I took the J to Gates Av and walked west on Broadway to the junction then continued past Kosciusko St Station. For those of you unfamiliar with Thaddeus Kosciusko he was a Polish ex-patriot who served in the Continental Army during the Revolutionary War and later became the inventor of mustard. A little further west at Lawton St I saw something that might interest some Brooklyn ex-patriots. It was the former "Bargain Town" Building at Lawton St. It is painted all grey and closed up but looks in very good condition and is grafiti free. This was a great place to go when you were a kid as they had a great toy department.I walked over to Myrtle and boarded the B-54 Bus (Don't tell the bus talkers) for the ride to Jay. The el structure on Myrtle actually still extends a little further south to Lewis Av though the track is long gone. At Jay St I boarded a C train for the ride back to Manhattan and what to my wondering eyes should appear but a six car train of R-110B's. (3001-3006) They are in very good condition and are quite nice to ride. Its too bad the other three haven't been fixed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, it looks like you had a FULL day!
You mentioned the J train. Funny you should mention it. This morning, do to a "Police Action" at Lorimer St. trains got to be backed up as far as B'way/East New York. Now, at that time, my train was the next station away at Atlantic Ave. We heard that our train was processing to Eastern Pkwy ('Eastern Parkway', I thought -- that's the J line!). As it turned out our train used the barely used J2a track that put us into the J/Z platform down below the L line. That was the first time I've ever rode a train that utilized some unused trackage while in revenue service.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Did you terminate at Eastern Pkwy or continue on to Manhattan?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, the train dumped passengers at Eastern Parkway. That was okay for me since I needed the A train anyway.
As I was going up the staircase I heard the conductor on the PA asking the T/O: "Do you know where we're supposed to go now?"
Doug aka BMTman
Why couldn't the train do it's discharging on the upper level? Why did it have to do this anyway? I might have misunderstood, but didn't you say the J had problems?
This is 162nd Street
The next stop on this 7 train will be Utopia Parkway, where transfer will be available to the 11.
No, it was the L train that was delayed up the line to Lorimer St. As a matter of fact, I craned my neck and was able to see a train of R-40Ms ahead of us on P2 at B'way/East New York, being held due to the backup.
The Willy B. J/M line was fine. Our train went from Atlantic, to J2 past the old signal tower and down onto the J line's Eastern Parkway station. That's where we got discharged.
Doug aka BMTman
>>>>This is 162nd Street
The next stop on this 7 train will be Utopia Parkway, where transfer will be available to the 11. >>>
This got me to thinking what would happen if we could expand the #7 in an ideal world. I would extend it both to the east and west. The western extension is physically 'do-able' but reno's to the Main Street station have made expansion from there quite unlikely, unless you involve the LIRR tracks in some way (double deck the subway tracks over them?) BUt, if they hadn't made those renovations, here's what I'd do there with a couple billion dollars:
Western expansion: run along 41st, turn down 11th and finally hook up to the L tracks at 14th and 8th. This will serve both the Javits and the Chelsea Piers complex which are both vastly underserved by subway.
Stops: 9th Avenue, Javits, Chelsea Piers, 10th Avenue/14th St, 8th Ave & 14th St.
Eastern expansion:
Run along Roosevelt Ave. and Northern Boulevard to Little Neck Parkway. A spur would run north to Whitestone.
Stops: Main Street, Bowne Street, 149th Street, Murray/154th Street, Utopia, Frankie Lew, Bell, Doug Pkway, Little Neck Parkway.
The Whitestone spur could run under 149th Street, with a transfer point to the Little Neck branch there. The line would push north and east to 154th and Powells Cove Boulevard.
Stops: 149th/35 Ave/Northern, Bayside Avenue, Willets Point Boulevard, 20 Avenue, 14th/Cross Island where express bus transfers from Nassau County could be made, 154th/Powells Cove.
Yeah, it is such a short line, never hurts for expansion. Also, the L line is very short too. Is it worth expanding too? -Nick
Don't knock the short lines. They're lifesavers for motormen and conductors with weak bladders!!! The "A" to Far Rock must be torture to them!
How bout the poor guys on the E when it ran from Jamaica to Rockaway Park? That would almost entail a change of clothing! And..its a good thing that in those days mostly R units were used, otherwise the conductor would have laryngitis by the time he got to Rockaway...
But with the R-1/9s, the conductor still got a workout from climbing up and down from the step plates at each station.
"Also, the L line is very short too. Is it worth expanding too?"
Nick,
Maybe into East Flatbush (old LIRR route tracks) but not further.
N Broadway Line
Wait until I get to the L.
This is Linden Boulevard
The next stop on this E train will be Foch Boulevard
What about the N?
This is Ditmars Blvd...Marine Air Terminal is the next stop....
I'd be with the NIMBYs in blocking any el construction up 31st Street. They should make the LGA link through the Sunnyside Yards.
Why? Is there a good reason for that?
This is Rector Street, transfer is available to the R
The next stop will be Battery Park, where transfer will be available to the 1, 9, 4, 5, R and V trains.
Why not a turnout at Hoyt Avenue and then some kind of median elevated out to LGA. Being a weekly NYC-Chicago commuter via LGA, I cannot imagine an easier way, especially through Sunnyside Yard
Is there room in the GCP median?
This is Broadway
The next stop on this E train will be Clove Road-Port Richmond
>>>>The next stop on this E train will be Foch Boulevard <<<
How do you pronounce that?
I'd say ch like K and an O like in horse. Or it could be ch like church to prevent giggling.
This is Battery Park, transfer here to the 1, 9, 4, 5, R and V trains, this is the last stop in Manhatta
The next stop will be St. George Terminal in Staten Island, transfer will be available to the V.
Shouldn't that be Whitehall St?
No, it's on a separate level, west of Whitehall.
This is Victory Boulevard
The next and last stop on this E train will be Staten Island Mall
Kevin Walsh,
I hate nimby people!
N Broadway Line
Astoria Division
It's named for a Frenchman, so I'd think it was "Fosh" with the "o" as in "bowl," but how they say it in Queens may be something else entirely.
In other words, another word for schtoink?
We have plenty of NIMBYs in Denver as well. RTD is proposing a light rail line to be run in the median of I-70 out to Golden, and it has stirred howls of protest. Same thing when they proposed running it along an existing rail corridor at 14th Ave.
Now the folks in Greenwood Village want to petition RTD to make the section of the proposed southeast light rail extension third rail instead of catenary because they don't want all that visual clutter. Give me a break!
Latest on the southwest extension: catenary is in place from Mineral Ave. to just before the line enters the open cut through downtown Littleton, roughly two miles. The support towers have been installed through the open cut, but stop before the line reaches Belleview Ave. Frankly, the catenary isn't THAT bad in terms of visual clutter.
Is Golden the place where the Coors Brewery is?
This is Port Richmond Avenue
The next stop on this E train will be Morningstar Road
YES
I remember now where Foch was from. He was a World War I Marshall (the rank the U.S. doesn't have).
This is Morningstar Road
The next stop on this E train will be South Avenue.
Why stop at Little Neck? This is fantasy land so you can include Nassau. How about extending it the full route of the N20 to Hicksville? (I once took the N20 when my car broke down in Bayside and its the slowest bus line I ever rode) This way you can service C.W. Post & Old Westbury College. You can also give the people of Roslyn an alterative to the Oyster Bay Branch. People in Hicksville can take one train to Shea, The Hall of Science and the Javitts Center. Considering how the "7" is now (and the N20), the trans might get a little crowded!!!
I think I once had a dream (a few times actually), where the E train terminated out by Rosevelt field. Another bizzare train dream. Among other's I've had:
LIRR having a secret fleet of MP-54s hidden away.
GG-1s everywhere (I think this was more nightmare last time...)
Abandoned sections of Penn - like a whole other station!
(Current) Penn Station supersized
*long* abandoned tunnels with stations - like whole lines.
Trolley museums in weird places.
Abandoned stretchs of the NEC - complete with standing catenary.
Am I the only one who has these kind of dreams, or are there others?
Yeah, I can just imagine how nice it would be to have subway access in a level beneath Roosevelt Field.
"This is the E train, this is Mineola, LIRR and buses are upstairs. Next stop is Roosevelt Field, please stand clear of the closing doors."
Actually, I imagined it starting as an elevated (a very high elevated I might add), somewhere closer to Voice road (not really Roosevelt field, I know :)
Interestingly, the equipment was all R-32s. Nothing but R-32s. The terminal was rather neat too. As far as underground stuff, you really don't want to know the kinds of underground stations I've imagined, other than to highlight:
One at some random location in the Bronx, noteful because it was WAYYYYYYYY down there, we're talking 10minute escalator ride to get to. 70's styling eveywhere.
One at an unmentioned location, but IRT type, and very tight, with lots of twisted pathways to connect to other lines.
One that somehow ended up in Glen Cove. Think of City Hall, straight, but much darker and spooky (candle lanterns on the wall for lighting, among other things). Redbirds, of course. Way cool.
When I was a little kid (about 4-5) and Roosevelt Field was still outdoors (uncovered) I actually thought there was a subway there as I remember subwaylike staircases in the middle of the mall leading to the lower level!!
I have a weird subway dream once a month or so. In fact, I had one last night. A D train of R-1/9s pulled into a South Ferry-style loop station, but this was outdoors and had a wide IND style curve. I reached the platform just as the train arrived, and watched the conductor ascend to the step plates and work the triggers to open the doors.
Other dreams include missing express tracks on the 8th Ave. line at 59th St., 14-car trains; express trains coming to a stop at a local station on the express track and people jumping down onto the tracks, scurrying across the local track, and scrambling up onto the platform, stuff like that. Oh, and an A train of R-1/9s at 59th St. whose first car featured a drop sash window on the storm door. No headlights, of course.
I have to take the N20 sometimes when the PW Branch is out, or I missed a train (the reverse commute schedule in the late afternoon is brutal on that line) and you're right, it's the slow bus to China. And it's packed because LI Bus has only two per hour.
Unlike New York and Philly, I believe most big city subways extend past their towns' political borders. Am I right?
I do wish the LIRR would address scheduling and access regarding the PW branch and the main line. If they won't build a connector line running north to south, they could schedule it to make easier connections if you are traveling west on the PW branch to Woodside to catch an eastbound on the main, and vice versa. The LIRR treats the PW branch as its own entity now, connections be damned.
I do remember as a kid during the World's Fair there was trains that utilized the mainstream LIRR through Jamaica & the P.Wash. lines. There was a direct train from Hempstead to the Fair that went to Woodside and reversed itself to the fair. I remember they used double-deckers as they were the only LIRR cars that you didn't have to reverse the seats.(I think that was the reason, it made sense) I don't know if there were any others, like on the Babylon Branch for example.
Does the N20 run on nitrous oxide?
Hey, it's Friday; I couldn't resist.
Yeah that would be great, especially since I'm around the Roslyn area. Unfortunately in real life, NIMBY's would put a stop to this project almost immediately.
I have designed a BAHN file of my own planned rail transit/subway system for Nassau county. If anyone is interested, let me know, maybe I can even put in the nyc.subway bahn files directory.
Anyone who can revise these lines and improve them further is welcome.
"Franklin square. This is a Jamaica Express train to Hempstead, next and last stop is Hempstead where transfer can be made to HUB trains to Roosevelt Field.
Please stand clear of the closing doors"
Why stop at Little Neck? This is fantasy land so you can include Nassau. How about extending it the full route of the N20 to Hicksville? (I once took the N20 when my car broke down in Bayside and its the slowest bus line I ever rode) This way you can service C.W. Post & Old Westbury College. You can also give the people of Roslyn an alterative to the Oyster Bay Branch. People in Hicksville can take one train to Shea, The Hall of Science and the Javitts Center. Considering how the "7" is now (and the N20), the trains might get a little crowded!!!
As many of you know the Sarge has said that he was unable to find traces of the Lexington El Junction at Broadway. For many years the traces of the turnout stub were visible, but this is no longer so.
At the street level three streets cross, assuming Broadway runs west to east Lexington Av comes in at an angle from the southwest and Ralph Av comes in from the southeast. There is no longer any evidence of the stub of the turnout so some steelwork must have been done here.
There is however evidence of the connection. Two of the cross girders crossing Broadway don't run directly accross the street but face Lexington Av at a slight angle. Also there are additional longitudinal girders between the main ones on the el.
The Sarge is quite right in what he says,if you didn't know what to look for and where you would hardly notice it.
I might mention that October 14 is the 39 anniversary of the demise of service on the Lexington Av EL.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I too was on Lexington Ave in Brooklyn.
I was driving around Bed-Stuy/Bushwick on Monday, checking doorbells and mailboxes for the 2000 census housing unit count (I was doing a survey to check the census bureau's address list). The random survey buildings were too dispersed for transit/walking, but I wish I was on a bike and not in a car with all the one-ways. Lots of people getting around on bikes -- more than in any neighborhod I've seen.
Boy is Stuyvasant Heights (1/2 of Bed Stuy) a beautiful neighborhood! I had never been there before, aside from the Fulton Street Commercial Area. The brownstone buildings are great, and in great repair, and there were lots of kids playing ball and on bikes. Everyone was smiling, happy to talk about the census, and not at all upset that I was poking around their buildings. And just a short walk from the A/C or the J/Z.
I also rode down Lexington Ave and looked around for signs of the El. The signs I saw were on the ground -- garages, factories, tenements, and lower-quality rowhouses instead of beautiful townhouses lined the Els route. You can see it was a less desirable street, even today. My co-worker, who was an architect, pointed out elaborate details on buildings on Broadway that were blocked by the El, all but invisible from the street. Did the buildings pre-date the El?
Cypress Hills, up the hill, also impressed me, although the buildings were not as well maintained. In particular, there was this huge apartment building on Highland Blvd that must have great views.
Hell, even parts of Bronwsville looked better than they used to, thanks to all those subsidized owner-occupied rowhouses built in the 1980s. I rode along under the New Lots El. All the pit bulls made me a little nervous, though.
I also rode down Lexington Ave and looked around for signs of the El. The signs I saw were on the ground -- garages, factories, tenements, and lower-quality rowhouses instead of beautiful townhouses lined the Els route. You can see it was a less desirable street, even today.
Largely because it was a commercial street. So much for the politicians and booster who said removing els was a magic wand for a neighborhood.
Actually there are some post-el low income apartment buildings on Lexington, however they are too uniform and MUCH uglier than the brownstones on the surrounding parallel streets. By the way, after they took it down did the residents sing at Christmas, Noel, Noel...? (sorry for that one, I couldn't resist)
>>>>>You can see it was a less desirable
street, even today. My co-worker, who was an architect, pointed out elaborate details on buildings on Broadway that were
blocked by the El, all but invisible from the street. Did the buildings pre-date the El? <<<
For more on Broadway, see my page
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/ADS/Broadway%20ads/brdway.html
and
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/ADS/Broadway%20walk/bway.html
Kevin Walsh
[Boy is Stuyvasant Heights (1/2 of Bed Stuy) a beautiful neighborhood! I had never been there before, aside from the Fulton Street Commercial Area. The brownstone buildings are great, and in great repair, and there were lots of kids playing ball and on bikes. Everyone was smiling, happy to talk about the census, and not at all upset that I was poking around their buildings. And just a short walk from the A/C or the J/Z.]
Gotta keep quiet about that sort of stuff. Now it'll be the next 'hood to be "discovered" :-)
[I also rode down Lexington Ave and looked around for signs of the El. The signs I saw were on the ground -- garages, factories, tenements, and lower-quality rowhouses instead of beautiful townhouses lined the Els route. You can see it was a less desirable street, even today.]
Much the same is true on Atlantic Avenue, at least the parts along the elevated section of the LIRR tracks.
Larry, I'm sure you are more of an expert than me, but are you sure the different girder patterns are for the junction of the 2 els? There are many intersections along the Bway El where there are different girder configurations just like at Lexington. I originally thought the differences were evidence of the juntion until I saw others in places where there were no el junctions. Also, are you sure its the 39th anniversary and not the 49th? I thought it was discontinued in 1950. I could be wrong, in fact I usually am!
Jeffrey, it is the 49th.
I shouldn't talk, it's all I can do to remember to date my checks 1999, not 1979 ;-)
I heard someplace that there is one girder remaining from the old el somewhere along Lexington Avenue (Brooklyn). Do you know anything about it?
A subtalk poster once mentioned something about a metal post from the El on the campus of Pratt. Maybe someone remembers it. By the way, Kevin, I enjoyed your 2 pages on the ads on Bway.
The el on Broadway has served, unintentionally, to preserve so many archaic features like ads, buildings, even theatres. And it has more of these features than any other street in Brooklyn with an el. New Utrecht or 86th St are nowhere close. Possibly, the economic slump the raegion has been in for decades contributes, too.
The real shame of it all, to me, is that there don't appear to be, at least to my knowledge, any aerial photos of NY while the els were still around. The slides of the old els are terrific, but they are all just a piece of the big picture. I'd love it if there were pix from say, 500 feet up, showing the various connections for maybe an entire boro,
Maybe 500 feet is too low, maybe 1000 feet, something that would show all of Southern Brooklyn in one photo
I would have loved to see an aerial photo of all the el routes converging towards Sands St. back in the 20-30's. Must have made the Broadway Junction/Atlantic Ave structures look simplistic by comparison.
Yeah, when I first found out there were els at one time on 5th and 3rd aves in Brooklyn, I became intrigued. Then I saw a structure jutting out from next to the old bus barn at 5th ave and 36th st, and my imagination starting going wild. I'm sure aerial photos of the Sands Street area and all the other els would be absolutely amazing, not to mention some of the surface routes of earlier times.
The Brooklyn El book by Geller & Watson has the viwe you want.
A photo showing just this scene that you're looking for will be offered as part of a ten-photo set to be offered on eBay in the very near future. It is taken from about 800 feet up and shows the entire Sands Street complex with the Brooklyn , Manhattan and Williamburg Bridges in the background. The photo's south end starts just below where the main loop rejoins itself in the area of the Terrace Cafeteria Bridge and the Hotel Clarenion. The magnificent Manhattan skyline is shown from the Brooklyn to the Williamburg Bridge. It's a fantastic photo. When the photo set is posted on eBay, we'll place a notice here. In addition, more Brooklyn el photo sets are to be offered from time-to-time; I have a large original New York City subway, elevated, bus, trolley and trolleybus negative collection extending from about 1933 to the late 1960s, although a few of the negatives go back even further.
You're too expensive!!!!
Jeff: Your right it is the 49th. I must have been sleeping when I said that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Jeff: Regarding the junction at Broadway and Lexington I never had the chance to see it in action like Karl did as it was gone before I came on the scene. I do know that at least during the 60's the turnout stub could be clearly seen. So what I am saying is based on observation of the el structure and old photos, if any of the older Brooklyn hands can help out with an explanation please do. The two cross girders that where off center have their south supports on the east and west sides of Ralph Av respectively. There is no reason for the easternmost girder to be off center as oppossed to true north-south unless it was to accomadate a curve in the el,ditto the westernmost girder. The Lexington El came first in 1885 so the el would have been built to accomadate it. The westward extension came in 1888. It seems that where the width of the street permitted it the Brooklyn Elevated and Union Elevated Lines where built to a wider clearance with a space between the tracks for a single island platform and the occassional center track. This was not done on Lexington Av itself which had two tracks close together with side platforms,but on Broadway the el was wider with island platforms. This facilitated addition of a through third track during reconstruction. Also during reconstruction not all the steel work was replaced but was strengthened as necessary. I think that the eastbound local track just west of Lexington is supportted by just such a type of steelwork. The el structure on Broadway in any event must have been of a higher standard because from 1898 to 1918 it also accomadated LIRR steel trains and this was prior to the Dual Contracts rebuilding. The el structure between Crescent St and East New York is original and it has no problem carrying the present day steel cars. The additional longitudinal girders that I mentioned could have been used to support the switch work or may have been left in during the reconstruction to provide additional support. They are several locations where this came be scene but it also may have been remnant of the original center track and there were several sections of this prior to the Dual Contracts.
My apologies for such a long post.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, That's really quite remarkable. I can't think of another place (short of a heavy rebuild) where evidence of an old line was obliterated.
The Park Avenue L stub on Myrtle lasted almost eight decades, though it pointed almost directly into someone's living room, and you can still the Chestnut Street ramp connection and old Cypress Hills terminal.
Was the Chestnut St ramp where the Bway El connected with the LIRR for trains over the Williamsburg to go to Rockaway? Where exactly is the ramp? I'd love to drive past it and see it someday
The ramp is gone, but there remains 2 girders for the track turnoffs between the Norwood and Crescent St. stations on the J line. It ran down a ramp and connected with the Flatbush LIRR, then a surface railroad down Atlantic Ave. I'm not sure that it connected to the Rockaway line.
It did, according to the book "Change at Ozone Park". Trains went from Delancie St over the Williamsburg and out to Rockaway Park.
I'd love to get that book. I do have "The History of Woodhaven and Ozone Pk.", which is my sole reference to the rail/subway history of my neighborhood. I was rather shocked to see that Atlantic Ave had a 4 track LIRR line on the surface as late as 1936.
Wasn't there a tower above the tracks betwween the Lexington Junction and the next station to the West. (I'm not even going to attempt to spell Kos....!!!)
Wasn't there a tower above the tracks betwween the Lexington Junction
There was a tower perched right over the tracks just east of Lexington on Broadway.
Paul, Wasn't that tower west of Lexington Ave on Broadway toward Kosciusko St?
Yes, it was west. I was picturing the tower in my mind and it was to the right of the junction. Right = east.
Except that's wrong. The picture was looking southwest, so right = west.
Next time I'll stand on my head when I picture the junction and I'll get it right.
There is a picture of the junction in Under the Sidewalks of New York.
That is a great picture! Thanks
USA Today, Tuesday, Oct.12, page 3A, has a half-page article on Amtrak's successful test of the Acela train between Warwick and Kingston RI. Testing has been going on for a week.
Top speed on Monday was 168 mph, a North American speed record for a passenger train on regular track.
What type of braking are they using? Dynamic or regen?
Both I think. It starts in regen, and cuts to dynamic if the catenary can't take it.
168 mph? So the Acela has been tested to speeds that can barley keep up with the TGV (186mph), and fall short of the world record (320mph -yes, 320 miles per hour) by about 150mph? Well, at least it beats the origional Metroliner.
Yeah, but again, it's shared track. The TGV uses mostly dedicated lines that no other trains use. It's like running F1 cars at LeMans vs running them on the BQE at rush hour in the bus lane.
-Hank
"168 mph? So the Acela has been tested to speeds that can barley keep up with the TGV (186mph), and fall short of the world
record (320mph -yes, 320 miles per hour) by about 150mph? Well, at least it beats the origional Metroliner."
168 mph is just too fast for a train let alone 320 mph. It's also extremely dangerous.
/*168 mph is just too fast for a train let alone 320 mph. It's also extremely dangerous.*/
I wouldn't say so - though the ICE train accident (which ironically happened at 120ish) was REAL bad, there HAVE been derailments of the TGV at speed that weren't fatal. I believe they have the record for fastest derailment (180mph). But none of these derailments have resulted in fatalities - largely in part because the TGV uses an articulated design (like a D type, and not like Acela), which keeps the cars upright and inline - they don't fold/smash/launch themselfs.
High Speed Rail is argueably the safest means of transport out there. IT's carried billions, yet there have been "only" 150 or so passenger fatalities. And rail accidents are MUCH more surviveable than plane ones!
Look at what happened at Chase,MD when an AEM-7 powered Amtraker slammed into 3 freight units in 1986 -- the AEM-7 dissolved but there were fewer than 20 fatalites. as long as Acela is built to AAR (America's Best) Standards and not UIC (INFERIOR world class standards) for crashworthiness, then Acela will be by far the safest modern transportation anywhere
I don't buy the notion of overbearing crash protection. It's better, cheaper, and more worthwhile to *prevent* the crash in the first place.
Why/how did the Chase accident happen?
How could it have been prevented?
Would an acela-type vehicle have resulted in few deaths?
Are the increased maintenance costs, power costs, design headaches, initial cost, and track costs really worth it? Why if the FRA's tier II standards are so obviously superior to UIC has Europe not adopted them? Why hasn't there been carnage on the TGV, though they've had a number of derailments, and grade crossing incedents?
The Europeans aren't dumb. They're argueably well ahead of us in rail technology. They feel that UIC is a sufficient standard. They appear to focus on crash prevention. Look at their signal systems - the German PBZ (I think that's the one) system not only tells you the MAS (according to track conditions, trafffic, etc) for the block your in, it tells you what the MAS of the block AHEAD of you is, and how far you've got to go. The TGV's TVM 340 (or is it 440 now?) has simmaler features too I think. AFIK, the NEC's system can't do that.
Acela the safest system anywhere? It's certainly one of the more expensive, and the truck problems they've been having suggest that it may be a high maintenance item too. More so than the TGV. Safety isn't in crash survivability - if you're having trains get that close, then you've got an unsafe system. IMHO, crash protection should be viewed as a last ditch effort to save lives. That such a large deal is being made about how crashworthy these cars are implies to me that someone out there is expected a collision of some sort. Not a pleasent thought.
I hope acela will be a success, and from a passenger-ridership view, it will be. But the Metroliners were too, and they didn't last very long in service. If acela turns out to be a short lived, high cost/high maintenance, low reliabilty system with a low return on ivestment, it won't be a stepping stone to a US HSR network, it'll be what killed HSR in the US.
But this is all just my $.02 :)
No amount of accident prevention is perfect, ever. How about strong trains AS WELL AS "failsafe" signalling...
Which brings me to a question: Do mainline trains (ie amtrak) have "deadman" failsafes similar to MTA trains?
Dave
(168 mph too fast)
To compete with the plane, ACELA has to average over 90 including stops. That means 120+ while on the move. You need to get down close to two hours from NYC to Boston or Washington, and less than five hours for the entire trip, to attract passengers from the air shuttles.
My wife has to go down and back to DC for meetings every now and then. She usually does it in one day to avoid missing out on family time. It's an interesting comparison.
For a 9:30 meeting, she has to leave at 6:30 today. It is a 45 minute car service ride to LaGuardia at that time, but you have to leave an hour. It would be worse at rush hour, but a guaranteed 60 mintues with if the N to LaGuardia gets built. You can get right on the shuttle, unlike other airplane trips that require arrival 30 to 60 minutes ahead of time. The air trip takes an hour, with departure delays and taxing. The trip from the airport into Downtown Washington also takes up to an hour. That's three hours.
It would take 11 minutes on the F and 16 minutes on the A to get to 34th St Penn Station, plus an allowance for wait and transfer. The trains are not that frequent at 6:30. Let's call it 45 minutes, a gain of 15 minutes.
I assume you will be able to walk right on the ACELA, and that service will be fairly frequent (every 30 minutes or less) like the shuttle. The old Metroliner ran once an hour -- that won't do.
Let's say the train takes 2:15. Now you're up to three hours.
Now we are back to the "will the ACELA take you downtown" question. The FED is near (but not that near) Foggy Bottom on the Orange line, which would require two subway rides from Union Station. A cab is also a possibility. Let's call it a 15 minute trip. That's 3:15. So she'd be leaving at 6:15 a.m.
Perhaps ACELA's seats will be more comfy, however.
[re comparing Acela with shuttle flights]
What about the cost issue? The shuttle flights are convenient but cost an arm and a leg. What will Acela charge?
IIRC, Acela Express will cost 30% less than an arm and a leg.
So it cost an arm, and half a leg?
Why even bother rasing the price - it'll only drive away potential customers, and some current ones.
Acela Express is an all too important part of Amtrak's plan to meet the Congressional mandate for operational self-sufficiency by 2003. As long as people are willing to pay -- and $60 cheaper on a one-way ticket than the primary competition means they probably are -- Amtrak is going to charge as much as they can.
Plus the savings from shorter cab rides to and from the train stations instead of the airports (or substituting subway rides for cab rides).
So even if most people will not be able to walk from the stations to their final destinations, being closer to them does make a difference.
(Cost issue). That doesn't matter if you are traveling on the cuff. If the whole family is going, it will be cheaper to drive. The FED might decide my wife has to use ACELA if it is cheaper; otherwise cost does not matter.
I think most people try to save their company money, as long as it doesn't become burdensome. A difference of 15 or 30 minutes doesn't bother me at all.
Once you consider the comfort aspect of things (trains are much more comfortable than squeezing into planes these days) and even more importantly the reliability (I've spent way too many nights in Chicago because of "thunderstorms over Cleveland") I think Acela will have a huge advantage over air travel (of course, I'm on SubTalk not JetTalk so I'm probably biased).
As you note, however, it really comes down to where you're starting out and where you're going to. If you live near the airport and are going to a destination near the airport you should fly. If you live near the station and are going to a destination near the station, take the train. Since the train stations are generally more centrally located than the airports, I think the train should win out more frequently once Acela is up and running.
Chuck
You need to get down close to two hours from NYC to Boston or Washington, and less than five hours for the entire trip, to attract passengers from the air shuttles.
That's a lot of $$$$$ that Amtrak probably will never have.
Depending on where exactly you're coming from and going to in the cities involved, I'd say the 3-hour Metroliner is already pretty attractive for quite a few travelers between NY and DC.
On the NY-Boston segment, even Acela Regional trains are supposed to make it in under 4 hours (starting in January), which would finally make Amtrak faster than Greyhound for that trip. So some people will start taking the train instead of the bus.
Of course, for trips to/from intermediate stations, the train looks much better. Not too many viable options (except for driving) if you're headed from, say, Providence to New Rochelle.
What type of braking are they using? Dynamic or regen?
Dynamic must produce A LOT of heat at that speed.
Better not BIE at that speed!
IIRC the original Metroliner made 156 or 1`60 somewhere between Trenton * New Brunswick in 68. So thirty years 2 billion 12mph?
The old els are fun. I have some questions:
What streets did the Manhattan els run on? The Avenues are obvious, but what about the ends of the route?
How did 129 terminal work? according to Michael Adler's 1920 map, there was no way for northbound 3 Avenue trains to go to the Bronx without crossing over to the downtown side, and southbound trains had to connect to the northbound side which becomes southbound? How did it work? What parts of the 129 station were on land or in the air?
What bridges did the els use to get to the Bronx?
What blocks did the now defunct yards occupy?
This is Parsons Boulevard
The next stop on this 7 local train will be Murray Hill.
For now, I'll trace the 2nd and 3rd Ave els:
From South Ferry, north on Pearl Street to Chatham Square. 3rd Ave. follows Bowery and 3d Ave. to 129th Street, sharp right into the 129th Station. Can't tell you much about 129th because I was born too late to see it. The bridge over the Harlem was between today's Willis and 3rd Ave. bridges and had two levels, two tracks each. It carried both the 2d and 3rd Ave. lines.
The 2nd Ave. Line diverged at Chatham Square, then followed Division Street, Allen Street, First Ave., 23d Street, and 2nd Ave. to 129th Street, where it rejoined the 3d Ave. Line.
6th and 9th Ave. els will be done in a separate posting on Wed., unless someone wants to do it ahead of me.
What about the Coenties Slip S-curve I hear about? And I assume the trains used New Bowery (St. James Place) to get between Pearl and Chatham Square and that the City Hall branch used Park Row (Chatham Street way back when).
This is Francis Lewis Boulevard (correction: might be a better stop than Utopia Parkway), transfer here to the 11
The next stop on this 7 train will be Bell Boulevard.
You're right about Coenties Slip and the City Hall Branch. I didn't want to get into micro-details - just the streets the el routes traversed.
And now, as promised the 6th and 9th Ave lines:
Common trackage from South Ferry to Battery Place (one stop). 9th Ave. trains: via Greenwich St., 9th Ave, Columbus Ave, 110th St., 8th Ave. to 155th St./Polo Grounds, then across the Putnam Bridge into the Bronx, and the famous tunnel connection to the Jerome Ave. Line at 162d St. and River Ave.
6th Ave: via Trinity Pl, Church St., Murray St., West Broadway, 3d St., 6th Ave., 53d St., then west to rejoin 9th Ave. el.
It's obviously no surprise why the IND subway was built with its own connection along 53d St. between the 6th and 8th Ave. lines.
Well, I want the micro-details. Where did the El go south of Coenties Slip? And I thought the 6 Ave El used 55 street?
This is 225 Street-Laurelton
The next stop on this E train will be Francis Lewis-Brookville Boulevards-Rosedale.
In Fischler's book "The Subway" there are pictures of the worst EL wreck in NYC history (Malbone was in a tunnel) at 53rd & 9th (the junction of the 2 els) where 1 car actually landed in the street and other cars dangling. It seems a s/b 9th Av was supposed to be going straight and was at a straightaway speed but the switch was for a 6th Av train which makes a sharp 90 degree turn and the train derailed.
Wasm't there a similar wreck along the 5th av. el in Brooklyn where the entire train fell to the street?
Yes, and its in the same book.
I once saw a picture of that wreck and for a while I'd flinch whenever a train passed over me along Jamaica Avenue.
This is an unusual post, since I'm posting a question on Museum Cars. I always thought that I knew the whereabouts of all Museum Cars, but I'm stumped right now.
Passing in the vicinity of Westchester Yard today on my back home, I looked around the yard and looked for peculiar items of interest. Well, I found some. Since Dave took his Lo-V pictures last year as well as the WestFest Pix of my own, some things have changed.
Questions of the Day: What's the whereabouts of Museum Cars 5782 and 5871 (R12 and R14), and 6895 (R17 work motor)? They are not outside the shop. I can't help but wonder if they were moved into the shop.
R21 7267 and R22 7486 (work motors) were also missing. 7267 was a shed of sorts, while 7486 just sat in dead storage. Does anyone here have any reports of these cars on the scrap line in Brooklyn or were they just moved to another location?
I'm starting to feel that the older IRT work motors are truly becoming a thing of the past. One doesn't see much of the older IRT fleet running under it's own power with the exception of the Revenue Collector and the Signal Dolly. As far as I can tell, Westchester Yard has divested itself of the older work motors.
-Stef
Hey could someone from Kingston/TMNY comment on the event you
are running this Saturday (OCt 16) with the R-16 and Whitcomb engine?
I didn't find any info on the web site. What time(s), what price
admission, etc?
The regular fares are being charged: $3 for adults. Those who want to be there for ALL the actvity should arrive around 10.
We will be running R-16 6398 along with SBK Locomotive #9 and an IND flat car on an excursion train chartered by the NHRS. Trackage not normally used, and which hasn't seen passenger service in generations will be operated on, along with our normal route to Kingston Point.
Come on out!
The NHRS event this Saturday at the Trolley Museum of New York is a charter, which is why it isn't in the museum's calendar. Walk-ins will be welcome, but if there are more people than seats in the R-16, the NHRS people be given priority since they scheduled the event. (There will be a flat car in the consist, but it has not been fitted with any benches or seats.) The NHRS group is scheduled to arrive at 9:30 a.m. with the ride departing at 10:00 a.m. The train will operate over the former U&D main line between mile posts 0 and 2. If there are enough people, we will consider making a second run.
--Evan
TMNY
Hello Evan...didn't know you read SubTalk. I'll stop by in the
morning if you need a hand. I wouldn't mind taking a look at your
new sub and 1000.
OK ... I'm walking in. I'd be happy to stand on the R-16, too, if there aren't any seats.
--Mark
Since the "F"orever did not show up at 47-50 Rock, I rode the head end of a Q to Long Island city.
Past Lex. Ave on the Q (63rd St. Tunnel) there is a cut coming into the LIC bound tracks, there is no track laid on this cut. Is this a cut set up for the 2nd Ave subway?
(Or is it the tunnel to Staten Island?)
Yes, the original plan was for a four-way interchange at 2nd Ave and 63rd St. Queens trains operating via the 63rd St tunnel would either turn down 2nd Avenue or continue on to the 6th Avenue line. Trains on the upper 2nd Avenue would either continue on 2nd Avenue or turn onto the Broadway line. The MTA proposes doing the 2nd Avenue to Broadway part, but not the rest. You could see how the Orignial MTA plan would have benefitted the Bronx and Queens, as well as Manhattan.
No benefits for Brooklyn, though. Of course, Brooklyn had just been the beneficiary of the Chrystie St connection and 6th Ave express, so it had gotten its share. That improvement, however, assumed the ongoing reliability of the bridges. Brooklyn's line improvement, therefore, lasted only 15 years -- and operational failures balanced the gains for most of those.
I still think they should build the original MTA plan, which combined subway and LIRR improvements. So does the old guy who drafted it, and who is hoping for one last shot at seeing it done.
Brooklyn had just been the beneficiary of the Chrystie St connection and 6th Ave express
With the miracle of hindsight, I'm not sure Christie Street was such a benefit for Brooklyn.
(Not such a benefit with hindsight).
Certainly if we had the money back, we could figure out something else to do with it. We'd have hooked up the BMT to the IND on the Brooklyn side of the river to access the IND tunnels. Of course, they'd have to anticipate the decline in rush hour ridership from 1965 levels, along with the absence of future funding, to come up with a smaller but more reliable solution.
I'm sure it was a huge improvement over the old Broadway/Nassau St. configuration.
Except for Manhattan, the Bronx probably has the best train arrangement. In other words, this borough is practically covered by Subway Trains.
Queens come in last.
N Broadway Line
Obviously you have never tried travelling by subway in Staten Island.
They run R-44s out in Staten Island (ick).
This is Foch Boulevard
The next stop on this E train will be Baisley Boulevard
Actually the SIRT R-44s *move*. They have good acceleration.
--Mark
So, they still have field shunting?
This is World Trade Center
The next stop on this E train will be Rector Street where transfer will be available to the R.
'guess so.
--Mark
Either that or SIRT juiced up the line. Or both.
Forty nine years ago tonight at 9 PM the "Last Lex" made a final round trip between Eastern Parkway and Bridge-Jay St. The last run was made by a special train of six open-platform gate cars numbered 1349, 1398, 1375, 1379, 1367 and 1395. It was a mild, clear fall Friday night in Brooklyn and a sad event for the standing-room-only crowd. In addition to ending service on Lexington Ave in Brooklyn, it also meant the end of rush hour sevice by gate train to Grant Ave in City Line and also 111th St on the Jamaica Line. It was apparently the death warrant for the 600 and 900 series gate cars. The 1300's were reassigned to the remaining Myrtle Ave Line. As a teenager I rode that last train, it was the end of an era for me. Sad Anniversary, "Last Lex"!
Karl B
(Sad aniversary). At least the Lex and Mytle Ave lines were replaced, in part, by the G (although the decision to make it impossible to route G trains to Manhattan was a real stinker.
More than we can say for the expected replacements for the 2nd and 3rd Avenue Els.
Haven't been reading the other thread, so please excuse if this is duplicate info.
Todays Newsday has a small article by Carl Campanile "Transit Reporter". In it the TA's Al O'Leary said "You can count on a commemorative MetroCard if there's a subway series". Pictured is one of the set of four Yankee MCs from March of this year.
He also talks about getting to Yankee Stadium or Shea via NY Waterways. Hmmm, where would they drop you off & how far would you have to walk ? I don't think the write ment it the way it came out in print ?
O'Leary is also quoted as saying "We've got this down to a sicence. We'll run as many trains as we can" (was refering to providing enough/extra trains to carry folks to/from the baseball events). My reaction was ... oh yea sure he has ! He'll use the PFM system, that's Pure F___ing Magic.
Now, now, Thurston....I've been to my share of Yankee and Mets games, and the MTA has provided extra service. I'm not saying there aren't crowded trains, but there have been times where the conductor has announced that there is another train directly behind the current one. If there is a subway series (and it is possible), hopefully the MTA will run some extra trains. It's not like they have to run a whole lot more, just a few. This is especially easy at Shea since the #7 yard is right there, and a little bit of brainstorming can allow for extra 4, B and D trains as well.
Just be glad you aren't riding the Green Line Trolley after a Boston Red Sox Game....now that is sheer terror. Both the trains and stations are way overcrowded when games are starting and finishing. I'll probably be experiencing that on Sunday if my connections go through for Yankees/Sox playoff tix...-Nick
The thing that always bothered me at Shea was the last LIRR from there is before the game ends ... I always hated to have to leave early.
Mr t__:^)
The Port Washington branch doesn't run 24 hours a day?
Sorry I didn't post this earlier, but Sunday's Newsday had a article detailing what it intends to do with it's share of new capital budget money, e.g. access to Grand Central; renovations at Atlantic Ave, Jamaica & elsewhere. At Jamaica some of the work relates to Airtrain from Jamaica (funny they didn't finish the line to the Long Term Parking lot yet).
P.S. Also $4 million of 100 ticket machines ... bye bye station agents
Mr t__:^)
I just got a reply from Thurston. The post refers to LIRR station agents and not the subway. We are not going away!! we will continue to be the front line between the public and the system. We will be there in rain or shine, hot or cold, snow or high wind, day or night. We are always open- 24 hours, 7 days and will continue to be here for you- our customer.
I just don't understand the mind set of Tom Prendergast & the others at LIRR, i.e. they're in the public service business.
How can they justify, as improved public service, reducing hours of agents at many stations or eliminated them all togather because they've installed a ticket machine ? Many of these stations will have absoluetly no one at them ... then they'll want money to repair dammage by vandels ... if a prospective new customer shows up they'll go away confused ... etc. etc. This is public service & this will encourage more folks to ride the LIRR ... I think NOT.
We're cirtainly not having a financial crisis, so why are they doing this ... could it be because they just don't give a dam. Maybe Tom's NOT the right man for the job ?
Well I'll get off my soap box now & probally need to say that I don't work for the LIRR or any other division of the MTA.
Mr t__:-)
[I just don't understand the mind set of Tom Prendergast & the others at LIRR, i.e. they're in the public service business.
How can they justify, as improved public service, reducing hours of agents at many stations or eliminated them all togather because they've installed a ticket machine ? Many of these stations will have absoluetly no one at them ... then they'll want money to repair dammage by vandels]
You're certainly right about the vandalism problem. My home station, Medford, had a small shelter built along with the high platform in 1998. It's too small of a station to have a ticket agent. The shelter gets vandalized at least once every two weeks. The damage gets repaired after a day or two, only for the vandals to strike again.
This is an easy one!!!
Can someone just give me the name of the new book of Brian Cudahy's new book about the Malbone wreck? I went to Barnes & Noble in Carle Place (and not to railfan the main line in the parking lot either!) while on the way to work thinking I could pick it up and leave. Without the name I didn't have a clue where to start looking. I checked the history, trains, New York, and transportation sections before realizing I will be late for work!!
"The Malbone Street Wreck" by Brian Cudahy, pub. by Fordham University Press.
Thanks!!!
amazon.com has it if you cant find it in a store....in fact...click to amazon from this site and help support it! (this site I meant..)
B & N doesn't have it yet (as of last weekend).
Does anyone know what the retail price of this new book is?
$19.95.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For this day and age that seems almost cheap! Thanks!
I ordered it online from Barnes and Noble on Monday, and it came _today_!
So they're LYING when they say it ships in 3-5 weeks? It costs cheaper online even w/ the shipping.
This is Farmers Boulevard
The next stop on this E train will be 225 Street-Laurelton
[So they're LYING when they say it ships in 3-5 weeks? It costs cheaper online even w/ the shipping.]
Barnes & Noble probably says it takes that long to ship as a way of avoiding customer complaints. If they say a book ships in two days, but it takes a week, plenty of people will complain. But no one who's expecting to wait three weeks is going to complain if the book arrives in three days!
I got my copy from Barnes & Noble also.
They were using "3-5 weeks" while the book was in "promised" status. I think they just failed to update the info.
Tell me about this book on the Malbone Street Book. What does it cost and what does it have?
I'll soon be bringing up my first book review on rapidtransit.net, which will be on the Cudahy Malbone Street book. I hope to have this live before the weekend.
Also an expansion of Alan Glick's excellent comments on some historical inaccuracies in the book.
Perhaps you will want to read these. I'll post the URL here when its ready.
Hint: Barnes & Noble online is selling the book (both bindings) at a significant discount. Amazon is list price.
Anyone know if its at Barnes & Noble in Carle Place in the Wiz, Tower Records, Bens Shopping Center?
[Anyone know if its at Barnes & Noble in Carle Place in the Wiz, Tower Records, Bens Shopping Center?]
Barnes & Noble in Union Square didn't have it last week. That place has about as big a local interest section as anywhere, so I suspect that the book's not available in any store. No big deal, as I got it in two days from B&N online.
Today they were playing "real" music over the PA system on the IRT portion of the union square station. By "real" I mean not a subway band but actual popular/modern rock music (Z100 type stuff). It gave the whole station a very nice and upbeat atmosphere.
How was the quality of the sound? Any music played over those lousy PA speakers is going to sound... lousy. I'd rather hear live music by one of those "subway bands". It's odd you would use "real" as a description for recorded music as opposed to live - kinda backwards.
It actually sounded really good, considering. I was actually looking around for a band until I stood under a speaker. Maybe the speakers aren't that bad, but the microphone and or the people making the announcments.
With all the talk about a possible Subway Series between the Yankees and the Mets, I decided to do a little research. In case anyone is interested in previous Subway Series, you can find out about them at http://members.tripod.com/~MRudolf/subway.html
Off the top of my head:
There was one in Chicago in 1906
And one in St. Louis in 1944
In New York there was 1922, 1923, 1947, 1949, 1955, 1957 I may be missing one in here.
And to my knowledge, never one in Boston, Philadelphia or Los Angeles; the only other cities to have more than one team at the same time.
There were actually 13 Subway Series in NYC (if you count the first two played entirely in the Polo Grounds, before Yankee Stadium was built). And you are correct -- 1906 Chicago and 1944 St. Louis. They are included on my site, as is the 1989 Oakland/San Francisco series, which technically could be called a Subway Series since the BART system connected the stadiums. (That was the famous earthquake series.)
Also, one might consider the 1951 Giants/Dodgers three-game playoff as kind of a Subway Series. ("The Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant! The Giants win the pennant!")
BART does not go to Candle Stick, it is served by busses, but the new stadium next year will be served by the N Light Rail, and is a short walk to Cal Train
There is an interesting story about that call by Russ Hodges. It was recorded by a Dodger fan and later turned over to whichever network was covering the game. No other recordings survived. Just as I can tell you where I was on Oct. 16, 1969 when the Mets won it all, most people who remember the "shot heard 'round the world" can tell you where they were at that moment.
I'm starting to feel guilty about doubting the Mets. They just might do it after all.
I MUST continue doubting the Mets, I fear that if I become too confident of a positive fate for them, they'll lose. Especially since they're in such a precarious position.
This is Guyon Avenue-Oakwood Heights
The next stop on this V train will be New Dorp Avenue
This is New Dorp Avenue
The next stop will be Lincoln Avenue-Grant City
This is Lincoln Avenue-Grant City
The next stop will be Jefferson Avenue
The Yanks didn't play a Subway Series in 1957--they were beaten by the Braves, the same team tormenting the Mets this fall.
Why couldn't Atlanta choke against the Mets this year like they did with the Padres last year? Also, it's not over. Remember the first 2 games of the 1996 World Series?
This is Baisley Boulevard
The next stop on this E train will be Farmers Boulevard
Chris, you're missing a lot. 1941, 1952, 1953, 1956 to be exact. The 1957 series was between the Braves and Yankees. Sounds familiar?
Just FYI, the 1906 all-Chicago Series and the 1944 all-St. Louis eries were both known as Trollet series. Also the term "subway Series didn't really come into use until the 1936 Giants/Yankee Series, and not popularly until the 1941 Dodger/Yanks Series. The 1921-22-23 Series tended to be referred to as a "Nickel Series", mostly because there wasnt any real subway service to the Polo Grounds at that time, only the Ninth Ave Elevated. By 1936, of course the Concourse line had been built, so Subway Series was more accurate...
The Cardinals and Browns shared Sportsman's Park, so the 1944 World Series stayed put, as did the 1921 and 1922 Series when the Giants and Yankees shared the Polo Grounds.
Did anyone mention that there was a Subway Series in 1951 and 1952?
How about games betwen the Cubs and the White Sox, is that a subway series or a L Series
I would say subway, since the line that connects Wrigley Field (Addison station) to Sox Park (Sox/35th Street station) is the Red Line, and the Red Line runs downtown through the State Street Subway. The line is elevated at Addison station, but it's in the median of the Dan Ryan Expressway at 35th Street, and the Dan Ryan at that point is in an open cut, not elevated.
Then again, there's a tradition of calling all rapid transit in Chicago the L whether it's elevated, subway, at-grade, expressway median, or open cut. So L series would work too.
In the good old days, it could have been referred to as a Streetcar Series. The 22/Clark-Wentworth through route served both ballparks. I don't believe that route existed in 1906, though. It wasn't until the 20s that northern and southern routes were through routed.
I'm rooting for the Mets, as impossible as it may seem for them to win two games in Atlanta. But they ARE the Mets, they have been known to pull off miracles in their day. Remember 1969? 1986?
Wayne
"In the good old days, it could have been referred to as a Streetcar Series. The 22/Clark-Wentworth through route served both ballparks. I don't believe that route existed in 1906, though. It wasn't until the 20s that northern and southern routes were through routed."
Plus before they moved into what is now Wrigley Field, the Cubs were playing on the West Side. I don't remember where exactly, but I do remember seeing a photo of an old L train with "BALL GAME TO-DAY" signs on it, and IIRC the caption said it was a Metropolitan train headed to a Cubs game on the West Side.
Come to think of it, neither Wrigley Field nor Comiskey Park existed in 1906.
Having just researched this topic for Branford's Subway Series
weekend, there were two other "subway series" in New York,
although they predate both the World's Series and the subway
system though. In 1858 there was an All-Star game of Brooklyn
vs New York players. It was held at the Fashion Race Course
in Queens, which ironically enough is about 1/4 mile from
the present-day location of Shea. In 1890 the National League
New York Giants had a series against the Brooklyn Dodgers (who
were going by the name of "Bridegrooms" that year). Brooklyn
was at the time in the American Association. They lost the series
to New York but the caliber of their play prompted the National
League to extend an offer of admission, which they accepted.
Also, in 1944, there was a special War Bond benefit game featuring ALL THREE New York teams in one game! See http://members.tripod.com/~MRudolf/threeway.html for details.
Just got your tape of the R9 sounds. It's great to hear them, especially because I never got to ride on any pre-war subway cars. I do have one question. What stopdid you begin that tape at. It does sound like the train is sitting in a terminal waiting to depart. If so, was it 8th Ave or Rockaway Pkwy?
If I may jump in on this one...
I have that same tape, thanks to Paul. It's something, isn't it? I remember the R-1/9s very well, and the tape brings them back to life. You really feel as though you're on the train. Having a nice, beefy 500-watt power amp on my stereo helps. By the time the power meters get to even five watts, there's plenty of sound. At 20 watts, it's mighty loud.
To answer your question, the LL ride starts at Rockaway Parkway. You can hear the change of timbre as the train leaves Sutter Ave. and comes onto the elevated structure heading to Atlantic Ave. That particular ride ends at DeKalb Ave.
If you have a really good ear, you can distinguish the door sounds between the R-7/9s on the LL and the R-4s which typically ran on the CC. I vivdly remember both.
Listening to it again I surmised that it did indeed start in Canarsie, because I counted the number of stops from the begining to the clearly-audible change of sound as the train went from el to subway, which i figured out had to be between Bway Jnctn. and Bushwick Ave.
The door sounds reminded me of the R10. But what cracked me up was that on side B you could hear conversations that showed the train must have been crowded. That 70's slang cracked me up.
Now I know waht an R9 sounds like. Thanks again, Paul.
BTW, anyone got sounds of an R16, or a pre GOH R40/42?
I'm glad you liked it Chris. It's nice to keep those old sounds alive. I'd love to hear it with Steve's 500 watts of power. Sometimes I think I've heard his stereo playing it and we're only a couple of states apart.
The offer is still open to anyone who wants a tape of either
1. A mix of LL, Philly Broad Street, and the CC
2. A full tape of LL, which is what Chris had
3. A full tape of CC.
Get them while you're hearing is still good. Paul
The sound of the door locks releasing and escaping air was the same on the R-10s. The doors themselves on the R-10s sounded very different; they opened and closed much faster. I still say the R-10s had the fastest doors in New York.
The real advantage of having a 500-watt power amp is being able to drive loudspeakers cleanly at high levels without distortion. I like to say it gives more beef to the sound, not just volume (although you get plenty of that, to be sure). I can crank the volume on that tape, and the sound doesn't get distorted.
Ans speaking of doors, the ones on the BMT standards had a distinct sound as they would open. I noticed it on the few occasions when a train would pull into 8th Ave. after we missed the one which had just left. As the doors would open, I could hear a rhythmic clicking sound very similar to is heard when a curtain is opened. You know, the sound of the curtain hangers banging together. It was almost as if the conductor was pulling on a curtain rope and opening curtains. I would only hear this sound from the outside; the doors opened and closed very quietly from the inside.
Yesterday at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, in the passageway between the Hoyt Street entrance and fare control I noticed workers building a large wooden partition to block off a section of the wall. A door in the wall was open and I peeked in to see what looked like a closed off, abandoned section of the Mezanine, along with stairs leading up to what may have been another entrance to the station. This morning I observed that the partition is complete, so the door is no longer visible. Anyone knows what kind of work is being done there, and can anyone explain what those stairs were for?
Mebbe Its got something to do with the F trains from each end of the line reversing there late nights upcoming??
Dave
With Gun hill being the Bronx's only real Depot.What's up with the Coliseum being built.
I think you're on the wrong side of the tracks :-)
Try BusTalk.
The new Coliseum bus depot is indeed finally rising from the ground. The steel framework of the building is in place, but nothing else yet.
And yes, I guess this belongs in Bustalk. But of interest to SubTalkers is the fact that the new building does not block the route where the old NYW&B viaduct once stood. As discussed recently, they are now dismantling more of this viaduct, probably the whole remaining structure between 180th and 177th Streets. But the right-of-way may be kept clear so that it could, perhaps, be rebuilt one day.
Check out "planning studies" on the MTA website. They're at it again -- studying how to improve service to the suburbs, so all but the welfare recipiants can move out. In this case, it is a study of MetroNorth to Penn connections.
Equity issues aside, these connections are probably a good idea. If the discount commuter pass/Metrocard is invalidated at the Grand Central Subway station, and available at the 34th St stations, much of the Lex traffic could be diverted from GCT to Penn. It would really help a friend of mine who lives on the Hudson line and works at FIT.
The plan mentions the possibility of adding Hudson Line stations on the Upper West Side. And, it proposes one whole station on the Amtrack line in the Bronx (which, fortunately for the MTA, is represented by MORONS). The proposed station would serve Co-op city. Additional stations would be a boon to City Island and Morris Park.
The map shows the Harlem line accessing Penn, but it doesn't say how. Anyone know? Do they plan to electrify the tunnel under St. Mary's Park?
That's interesting. The Port Morris Branch has never seen electric service, at least not to my knowledge. Anyway, there's only one track here which is sparsely used for freights since the Oak Point Connector opened around the river several months ago. How can Metro North upgrade a freight line, and how would that effect it's lines and that of Amtrak's? Only three of the four tracks on the Hell Gate Bridge is actually being used. The Hell Gate Bridge capacity would be increased, but to do this a 4th track which is presently unused would have to be utilized for full capacity. The entire Port Morris freight line would have to be rebuilt and I don't think the tunnel under St Mary's Pk (my back yard) could accomodate two tracks unless the tunnel was widened. Some rebuilding of the tunnel took place several years ago on the line. You also have to equip the freight line with signals.
-Stef
The Pt. Morris line does appear wide enough for two tracks. In fact, I think at one time it had two tracks.
To use it for passenger service, they would need to impove the fencing around it to keep people from thowing debris onto the roadbed. They would also need to rebuild the switches at both ends, as they now point the wrong way. That is, whatever traffic currently uses it (or did until recently) accesses it from the south, after coming down the Hudson line and starting north again on the Harlem line. At the other end, it connects only to the Oak Point yard. The connection there would need to be turned around so that trains could get onto the Hell Gate bridge without reversing direction; I think this might require a fairly sharp curve.
why would Metro North want to use Penn Station? The East River Tubes are already overcrowded as it is. I know I missed earky parts of this conversation since I was out a week on Vacation
10/14/99
Let's not forget the use of overrunning and underrunning third rails. If such a connection were reality,how would this problem be solved?
Bill Newkirk
Metro North would go to Penn using capacity freed when the LIRR goes to GCT.
I assume that the Hudson line trains would be diesel, and the Harlem line trains would be catenary (though the power problems mentioned here snuffed that). Those are "easy." The Harlem line is hard. I assume that even if the Pt Morris Branch could be used the trains would have to navigate crossover junctions, and then there is the power issue. You'd probably have to put pantographs on Harlem line trains as well for a switchover approaching Penn.
Hudson Line trains could switch off south of Spuyten Duyvil onto the existing west side Amtrak tracks into Penn. The big expense there being the installation of third rail electrification.
Harlem Line trains would have to use the St. Mary's tunnel as you state, plus a junction with Amtrak near Port Morris would have to be constructed, and that may require acquisition of properties for a roundabout connection into Penn at best.
New Haven Line trains could switch off south of New Rochelle onto the existing Amtrak connection which passes through the Bronx and Queens into Penn Station. New Haven Line trains are equipped for third rail and catenary service. Provided the catenary electric systems of MNRR and Amtrak are compatible it seems that could run trains from Connecticut into Penn right now. Anyone out there with more detailed technical info?
The catenary switches to 11kv 25hz right before the line meets the LIRR. M-2s don't have 25hz capeability anymore, and the M-4 and M-6 never did. Unless Metro-North can convince Amtrak to go to 12.5kv 60hz AC in Penn, it's third rail time over there. Supposedly Amtrak just upgraded their 25hz substation over in sunnyside, so I don't think a 60hz conversion is going to happen anytime soon.
Plus there's a capacity issue at Penn...
Both of which means it's a pipe dream in all likelyhood, which sucks because I'd LOVE to watch out the front of a train over the Hell Gate...
Did the New Haven ever run commuter service to Penn?
Larry, this probably also to do with the possible building of a bridge in the Nyack area, so Port Jervis and Pascack Valley customers could have a one seat ride into NYC,probably into GCT. Which might happen about the same time Rudy G sits on the board of the Brooklyn Museum.....Because one of the things that never gets talked about when this is discussed; is the fact that, in addition to the bridge, trackwork ,etc; the MTA would have to purchase incredible amounts of rolling stock. Not to mention having to hire all sorts of personnel, having gotten away for YEARS with just having to pay NJT for THEIR equipment, personnel,etc..What this does is makes the MTA look good, so they say:"Hey look, we are actually TRYING to improve your service...never mind it actually will never happen..so hand over your 1/4% tax..ok folks?"
(One seat ride from Rockland).
For those of us who aren't anxious to spend a cazillion dollars on a one-track rail freight tunnel, and aren't just doing studies to pretend we care about rail freight, a rail bridge from Nyack to Tarrytown is a great idea. From what I heard, it was killed by NIMBY pressure from affluent Nyack, not by lack of interest by MetroNorth.
Perhaps G. Pataki's new Tappan Zee Bridge idea is a way to get rail included as well.
The thing to remember about transit bureaucrats is that they love transit, and are in favor of adding service and building just about anything. Decisions to cut in favor of other priorities comes from elected officials via the MTA board. These officials don't like to have their fingerprints on decisions, since decisions always make someone unhappy. They make non-decisions. Don't blame the bureaucrats.
I'd love to see another Nyack-Tarrytown span that also carries rail traffic. Transport of Rockland curenly runs express buses (TZX-1) from points in Rockland to the Tarrytown Metro-North station. (I'm not sure if it also runs to White Plains). This commuter pattern is growing, too.
--Mark
Couldn't this be implying the GCT-Penn link that has been proposed.
(I once thought there was a train that ran from GCT, through Port Morris, and looping back to Penn. (I didn't realizeit wasn't connected). But later I found out this "Shuttle to Penn Sta." was a Metro Apple bus.
There has been some discussions in the various transit publications and websites about an actual Penn to GCT rail connection. But the closest actual evaluation is in the joint NJT-MTA-PANYNJ study entitled "Access to Region's Core" has basically reduce the consideration to new Hudson River rail tunnels just north of the existing pair.
If you really examine the route of getting a rail tunnel from Penn to GCT, it would be just an incredible project, perhaps exceeding the "Big Dig" in Boston. With all the water tunnels and subway tunnels, in Manhattan where would you go? Under the Lexington Avenue Subway? and then where do you make the turn?
If the existing extension of the 63rd street lower tunnel two blocks from Second to Park Avenue and then the rise alongside the existing MNRR track tunnels come in at $2.3B. I suppose a new Penn to GCT would be on the order of $20B.
exceeding the "Big Dig" in Boston. With all the water tunnels and subway tunnels, in Manhattan where would you go? Under
the Lexington Avenue Subway? and then where do you make the turn?>
There's one avenue without any trains under it: Madison. The alignment is possible, according to a handful of the Study folks I talked to a year or so ago. You have to punch through the GCT turnaround loop, though. And yeah, it'd be hugely expensive -- how MANY billions I don't know -- but just consider the benefits of through-running Amtrak, NJT, MetroNorth and LIRR trains. Not that the differences in power are trivial.
The difficulty with all this is capacity: At Penn Sta, and under the Hudson. Obviously he two extra tracks under the Hudson are needed to get more trains in/out, but then you run out of platforms at Penn. Part of the largest version of the plan is: 2 more tracks under Hudson + more platforms at Penn + connector to GCT.
Not in our lifetimes, maybe ... but still, wouldn't a GCT connector make more sense than the LIRR-to-GCT via 63rd tunnel plan? That one's just being built 'cause we've had the unused 2nd level of the tunnel for 20+ years.
Madison Avenue is listed as the choice, for info see
http://www.eclipse.net/~scheurle/njarp/arc_summ.html
But with all those tall buildings on Madison and the fact that Park Avenue is wider, I can't imagine Madison Avenue routing.
How much will they charge for a ticket from Penn Station to Grand Central? The whole idea is screwy. You can already bring all those trains into Penn Station except for the Harlem line. Connecting the 2 stations won't relieve the crowding at Penn that keeps them from doing so. GCT doesn't need a connection to Penn to service NJ and LI, just a deep tunnel under the Hudson and across Manhatten to link it to the tracks in NJ and the 63rd street tunnel to link it to LI. Connecting to NJ through Penn is silly; that's where the bottleneck is already.
I think two new tunnels should be built under the Hudson and connect at 57 Street. These tunnels will go to Grand Central. This will allow all trains to run to a grand central railroad terminal as opposed to the eyesore trash heap known as Madison Square Garbage. Notice how in my station announcements, the L train stops at "34 Street-Javits Center-Madison Square Garden." This is just a plan to rid the city of one of it's greatest monstrosities.
This is Pelham Bay Park
The next and last stop on this Q train will be Co-op City
I agree with KMA, more trains into Penn is dumb, and will just cause more congestion. Maybe if NJT and Amtrack will give free transfers at Hoboken and Newark to Path, people will be willing to transfer to get to the city, the same with LIRR and Metro North to the subway, free transfers
The "easiest" way would be to turn it off the LIRR tracks at Madison Ave. and send it up to 42nd St., and connect it into the loop track on the lower level of Grand Central. Still pretty expensive, but you would avoid any interference with the Lex line, and could run the track between the shuttle track and the No. 7 train.
Another issue may be the West Side connection at Penn Station, itself. Although there are two tracks for the entiire West Side Line, there is only one track in the Amtrak tunnel construction; and I was told that there was not enough room for a second tunnel.
Any small problem could be a rush hour service disaster with only one track.
That's correct. And to get that single track in, they had to move a foundation column supporting a 20(?)-story building above the ROW for the Connector. It's tight under there.
One of the purported advantages of rail over air at medium distances is that the trains take you right Downtown. As the Robert Mosesites in my office point out, however, many Northeast Corridor Line stations are not located "Downtown."
Penn Station New York is between Downtown and Midtown, but not really in either (GCT is in Midtown).
30th St. Station is not in Downtown Philly.
South Station is not in Downtown Boston.
If you have to take a subway or cab anyway, is taking a train really different from taking a plane if the airport is hooked up to the subway?
My question is, what do you have to do (in cities other than NY) to get from the Amtrak Station to the centers of commecial concentration. Can you walk? If not, how crowded is connecting transit service at rush hour, and how frequent off peak? How is the connection (on site, or wandering around a few city blocks?)?
No it can't but in Philadelphia you've got options.
A: Subway- The El and SS trolleys are a block away and provide and load of connections downtown. At rush hours, peak directions are crowded, but service is frequent. Though there should be an in-station connection, it's just across 30th.
B: Regional Rail- It's free between 30th Street and downtown(just across the river) so just hop on a train and go(BTW, when I say free, I mean they don't check tickets between 30th and Market East. If a conductor asks you for a ticket/pass and you can't produce one you will be denied access, but this is usually avoidable).
C: Simple walk- A jaunt down Market Street or JFK Blvd will put you in the heart of downtown in 7-10 minutes.
As far as Boston is concerned, there really is no "downtown." But South Station is within walking distance (15 minutes or less) of the financial district, the state capital building, and Boston Common. There is also a station stop at Back Bay Station, five minutes (by rail) from South Station, which serves the Copley Square area -- home to many hotels, retail stores, and businesses. So I think that Boston's stations do qualify as "downtown." Of course, if you need to go to Cambridge, home to MIT (and that other school - whatsitsname), you'll need to take the Red Line or G-d forbid, a taxi.
When I was in Boston I did walk from Copley to South station but not the day I was leaving town with my suitcases to to to New York. (I don't think my train went to the back bay station.) Crossing the Charles on the Red Line is a nice ride if you get off at MIT or ride out a bit further where the trolley buses run. (How do you get to Haavahd? Study Haahd.)
In New York City, the Central Business District is defined as Manhattan from 59th St south to the Battery Park, river to river. By this definition, all Amtrak trains stop in the CBD. Downtown NYC is usually associated with the Financial District, which is a 15 min subway ride from Penn Station, with handy underground connections from Amtrak to the subway. A flight into LGA will result in a 5 to 10 min walk minimum to leave the terminal, attempting to take a cab (unsheltered connection), and dealing with traffic to downtown - on a bad day, that trip can take over an hour; or taking a bus from LGA to either GCT or thPort Authority Bus Terminal and a subway ride to downtown. In any event, I would rather be left at Penn than the airport.
[many Northeast Corridor Line stations are not located "Downtown]
This is not unique to the Northeast Corridor. Albany (in the Empire Corridor) has its train station across the Hudson in Rensellear. You can't walk and the busses are infrequent at best. There's a beautiful old train station in downtown Albany right on the Hudson with tracks still leading up to it but the building is now used by SUNY administration and will never be put to train service again.
And yet the trains to/from Albany are doing very well, ridership-wise. I'm looking forward to the new Amtrak station they're building next to the existing one. It's pretty chaotic there right now when there are multiple trains in the station.
[And yet the trains to/from Albany are doing very well, ridership-wise
]
Which is exactly why if any corridor should get the ACELA it should be Albany-New York City
many Northeast Corridor Line stations are not located "Downtown."
many? Philly isn't, I guess, though it's easy enough to catch the free (for Amtrak passengers) ride into downtown. Boston, Providence, Stamford, Bridgeport, New Rochelle, NYC, Newark, Wilmington, DC ... those are downtown, aren't they? I don't remember about Baltimore, New Haven, or New London. I guess there are those small towns in eastern CT and western RI that don't have much of a "downtown" to speak of, and there are the deliberately suburban stations like Route 128. But it seems to me that most of the NEC stations are in the middle of the cities they serve. Certainly, even when they aren't located downtown, they seem to be closer than the airports.
I don't know what to say,
Technically, Philly's downtown area(Center City) is bounded, like Manhattan, by two rivers east and west and is between Spring Garden Street to the north and South Street to the south. So being across the river techinaically makes 30th Street outisde of downtown, but being adjacent to the Post Office and at the other foot of the bridge from the PECO Building and downtown, I'd say it can be included.
Subway Steve's Homepage
In addition, 30th Street Station being just outside "downtown" puts it within short walking distance of both the Drexel and Penn campuses, which certainly provide Amtrak with considerable ridership.
And there are subway stations, trolley stops and regional rail stations adjacent to UC, as well.
In Chicago, Union Station is right downtown... Most of the Loop is within easy walking distance, and there is a Blue Line stop two blocks to the south of the station. People wishing to get from Union Station to the hotels in the River North or Streeterville areas can take the Blue Line to Jackson and transfer there to the Red Line, and then ride the Red Line a few stops north to Grand or Chicago Avenue. A number of bus routes terminate directly in front of the station, including the 151 which serves the North Michigan Avenue area. And there are always taxis available within the station complex itself.
In my original hometown of Cincinnati, their magnificent Union Terminal is located in a rather seedy industrial area about a mile or so to the west of downtown. A huge parking lot, a major expressway and a public housing project further seperate Union Terminal from downtown. To my knowledge only one bus route serves Union Terminal (and involves a rather circuitous route to boot), and taxis are few and far between.
However, there is an interesting sidebar:
A proposed subway was supposed to have linked up with Union Terminal, and the building was even designed with this in mind. Construction was actually started on a subway back in the 1930's, but financial and technical difficulties forced the city to abandon the project. The portions of the subway that had been completed were sealed off and have become an obscure part of the city's folklore.
However, the tunnels still exist beneath Central Parkway today, and there is at least one full station down there -- with a working pay phone, no less! The only visible evidence of the subway on the surface is the occasional air shaft grate on Central Parkway, and two sealed-off portals in the hillside above I-75 north of downtown.
Every so often the city dusts off plans to complete the subway and incorporate it into a new light rail system, but somehow the plans always end up being put back on the shelf for some future politician to re-discover.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I think it would be great for Cincinati to have a light rail system feeding a subway downtown, as in Europe, especially if the system ran out to the suburbs. The Cincinati area is small enough that such a system might work. Unlike a subway, it might even be able to get over a bridge to the airport in Kentucky without knocking the hell out of the bridge.
Cincinati doesn't have a very significant Downtown size wise, but it's close, and a rail system could put it over the top. Looked at that way, it would probably be a good investment fo the Queen City. Unlike Dan, I'm do not believe that pedestrian-oriented cities are obsolete and destined for the scrap heap, its just that as a result of their industrial bases most of them have sunk so low they no longer count as cities.
House about this. Ohio kicks in to build the 2nd Avenue here in NYC, and we'll kick in to build the Queen City Subway. Deal?
Aren't a couple of major pipelines now occupying part of the tunnels?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure, although it's very possible. I know a portion of the tunnels were converted to a civil defense shelter in the 50's, but I have no clue about pipelines.
On a related topic, Chicago's old freight tunnels are finding new life as conduits for fiber-optic data and communications cables serving downtown high-rises.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I was fortunate enough to be able to go down into the Chicago tunnels back in 1978, when I lived there briefly. At the time they were mostly carrying high-voltage electrical cables, at least in the limited area where I was - no communications links at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
(I had an opportunity to go down in the Chicago tunnels when I briefly lived there).
Sorry you ended up living in a tunnel. I'm glad you're off the sauce. (Just kidding).
The beauty of fibreoptic cabling is that it can co-exist with the high voltage feeder cables, since they are immune from electromagnetic fields. This would make it technically possible for NYCTA to lease space in the subway tunnels to communications companies. Much cheaper to install when you don't have to trench. Lots o' profit *could* be made, just as owners of churches, water towers and tall buildings are leasing space for cell phone antennas, and reaping the benefits.
Sounds like a deal to me... I've always felt Cincinnati deserves some sort of rapid transit system, and I feel the city is perfectly suited for such a system. Most of the city and close-in suburbs are already very pedestrian-oriented.
While small in size, Cincinnati's downtown is very clean and attractive, and has a much more "urban" feel to it than the central business districts of most other similarly-sized cities. Even much larger Sun Belt cities like Atlanta and Phoenix can't hold a match to Cincinnati's downtown. It's also very vibrant from 9 AM to 5 PM; unfortunately the streets tend to roll up after 5:00 and this is something the city is constantly striving to rectify.
I understand the old Over-the-Rhine neighborhood north of downtown is just now starting to see some much-needed gentrification, after decades of being written off as a lost cause... Hopefully this will help things a bit.
Part of the reason downtown Cincinnati has fared so well is geography; it sits in a basin surrounded by steep hills, so for the first part of the city's history almost all development was concentrated in this area. At one point Over-the-Rhine had a population density even higher than that of Manhattan. Also, the exodus to the suburbs after WWII that devestated so many other cities didn't hit Cincinnati nearly as hard. Cincinnati has always had a very high standard of living, so the incentive to pack up and head out to the 'burbs wasn't as strong. Important lesson there for other cities.
Always the dreamer, I've even proposed a few routes for a Queen City Metro rapid transit system. Not really a light rail system; I envisioned it as more of a heavy-rail system similar in nature to the Washington Metro or Atlanta's MARTA. Here they are:
Red Line (North-South line from Hamilton, OH to Alexandria, KY): Hamilton, Fairfield, Hamilton Road, New Burlington, Mount Healthy, North College Hill, North Bend, Cumminsville, Cincinnati Tech, Zoo / Avondale, University Village, Over-the-Rhine, Downtown, Riverfront, Newport KY, Carothers Road, Southgate, Highland Heights, Cold Spring, AA Highway, Alexandria.
Orange Line (North-South line from Kings Mills, OH to Florence, KY): Kings Island Park, Fosters Road, Fields Ertel Road, Montgomery, Blue Ash, Kenwood, Silverton, Kennedy Heights, Norwood, Xavier University, Walnut Hills, Eden Park, Broadway, Downtown, 4th Street Covington KY, 12th Street Covington, Fort Wright, Fort Mitchell, Crescent Springs, Earlanger, Turfway Road, Mall Road, Florence.
Green Line (East-West line from the airport, running express to downtown, and then local east of downtown to Milford): Airport, Airport Park & Ride, Downtown, Broadway, Eden Park, Walnut Hills, Xavier University, Hyde Park, Fairfax, Mariemont, Newton, Terrace Park, Milford.
Blue Line (East-West line from Bridgetown to Cherry Grove): Bridgetown, Chevoit, Western Hills, Fairmount, Museum Center (Union Terminal), Music Hall, Downtown, Riverfront, Sawyer Point, East End, Lunken Airport, Coney Island / Riverbend, Five Mile Road, Beechmont, Cherry Grove.
"Make no little plans." -- Daniel H. Burnham
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
While the rail stations in Philly, Baltimore and Washington may be technically outside the business district it really is just a technicality, especially when compared to the distance between the airport and downtown in those cities.
I travel to those cities on business a few times a year each and I find Amtrak faster, cheaper and more reliable than flying. Even when I'm going to clients in the Philly or Baltimore suburbs, its faster to take a cab from the rail station. In that regard, 30th Street's being right off the highway is a big help.
Chuck
Isn't there actually an official policy that people with Amtrak tickets to or from Philly are allowed to ride the Regional Rail between 30th St., Sububan Station and Market East without additional charge? At one time I know I read that this policy existed. It was never clear what the time limits were, or if tickets were subject to being marked in some way to prevent people from riding back and forth numerous times using the Amtrak ticket as a "pass".
Yes, this policy still exists.
Yes, but most SEPTA conductors aren't up on it. Amtrak also doesn't publicize it and refers to the El as the way to get to Center City.
Actually, you can ride from 30th St to Market East for free without a ticket if you're careful. I've done it many times. Even stretched the ride to University City a couple of times.
Amtrak also doesn't publicize it and refers to the El as the way to get to Center City.
Maybe Amtrak doesn't publicize this as much as they could, but in the Northeast Timetable on the Philadelphia page, under Public Transportation: "SEPTA located on Upper Level platform--free connections to Suburban Station and Market East Station with Amtrak ticket stub"
"One of the purported advantages of rail over air at medium distances is that the trains take you right Downtown ... however, many
Northeast Corridor Line stations are not located "Downtown.""
Larry you realy got something started in this thread, but I don't agree with you at all. None of the airports that you are comparing the train stations with are DOWNTOWN. And you don't have to show up two hours before your train ! So even with a short subway/bus/cab ride the customer is way ahead. Also, you know very well that there is just no way any of these cities are going to build another rail station closer to downtown ... so the issue is how can the existing station be made more convient then it is ? I don't think there's too much of a issue with major cities like NY or Boston, but smaller cities are a different subject. I would look at to the Europeans for a model, i.e. you can still go to the rail station in most cities there to find hotels, shops & convient transportation to all points from that spot.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks to the volunteers of www.nycsubway.org for the banner alerting me to the New York Days at B.E.R.A. Thanks to the workers at East Haven and Branford for giving us a great day there. I appreciate the effort they put into the museum. B&QT 1001 seemed to have even better acceleration than the two Newark PCC's I rode last month! Thanks to the electricians, painters, mechanics, conductors, operators, sales staff, cleaners, and all the other workers.
I'm glad you like you liked it. The General Public's interest makes events like NY DAYS work for the benefit of all involved. I always find myself coming back for more...
-Stef
The C line was great combination with the D and so was the combination with the A and B lines together. I think that it will be great to have the connection again. The B and A line gave people two different Places in Manhttan with 6th and 8th Avenues. Same for the C and D during which gave people more access to Manhattan without having to transfer. It would be a better idea period. Why would you just change the lines because of cars? That stinks! This is how it should be:
C Line: Between 145 Street and Lefters Blvd all times except rush hours and midday hours when train goto Bedford Park.
B Line: Between 168 Street and Coney Island Full time. Local between 168 and 47-50 Streets.
A Line: Normal Service No Changes except full time express.
D: Line: Normal Service except middays and rush hours. Trains will run downtown express in the Bronx between 6:30am and 12:00pm. Trains will run Uptown express in the bronx between 12:15pm and 7:30pm. (Extra Spacing Between 12:00 and 12:15 allowed for last Downtown Bronx Express Train)
Tell me what you think but I think that this is the way it should be!
Christopher Rivera
A: 207th to Far Rockaway(Man/Bkln exp, Qns lcl) all times.
B: 168th to Coney Island all except middays, 21st Street and 168th Street to Coney Island middays.
C: BPB to Lefferts local all times(yes, a four borough train!)
D: Webster Avenue(D extended east and eliminating 205th) to Coney Island all times.
V: 21st Street to Brighton Beach express all times.
I say keep the Q as the Q.
Even the Commutist Manifesto doesn't have a four borough train (even though under that system, a 4 borough train doesn't mean much).
This is South Avenue
The next stop on this E train will be Linden Boulevard.
No, you cannot eliminate the 205/206th St station.
It would be easier to eliminate the 207th St station by lengthening the line to go up and over the Broadway bridge on a rebuilt and lengthened IRT line into Yonkers.
My best guess for the the 205th St Webster Ave stub is to Wye it at the Harlem div tracks to go both north to Mount Vernon and other Westchester locales and south into the City, possibly as a double deck eleveted over the Harlem Div tracks, across the Harlem River, the swing over to 2nd Ave to join that uncompleted line.
[V: 21st Street to Brighton Beach express all times. ]
We don't need a V when we have Q but don't be suprised to see the Q on weekends in the near future. There's no line that needs weekend express service more than the Brighton Line.
Brings back the old days when the Brighton did run express 6 days a week in Brooklyn and 7 days a week on Broadway Line Does anybody remember?
Josh,
The D will probably become an express along the brighton line when the Q is put back on broadway.
Like I said in another post, I will like to see a H line (21st Street and Rockaway Park).
I don't know if this could be reality - a k line off the J line into the F towards Coney Island.
Several route changes I propose:
1) Eliminate the Z and replace it with the K.
2) Terminate the new K line at Broadway East NY or Canarsie (possibly Jamaica Center for Skip Stop Service with the J).
3) Make the J express during rush hours in the peak direction.
4) Southern terminal of the new K line should be either Kings Hwy or Church Avenue as Local.
5) The F line should be the Express along this route.
And, 6) The G line should operate from Court Square or Hoyt Schermonhorn Sts. all the times.
If the Q goes back to Broadway, Who will run local on the Brighton Line. Maybe the V should be the Brighton-6th Ave Local out to Queens via 63rd St Tunnel
No, the Q in Brooklyn will remain as is, only in Manhattan will it be changing.
This is Francis Lewis Boulevard
The next stop on this J train will be Hempstead Avenue
Bob,
It will be the way it use to be. The M/Q will be the local, and the D will be express.
N Broadway Line
Now it was mention that is likely that the Q will remain the same in brooklyn and change to it's old guise, the Broadway express (hopfully a yellow circle instead of a diamond) But my question is what happens at dekalb if there is only one 6th ave train stoping there will the B pick up the slack by stopping whilre the Q bypasses this station once the broadway tracks onthe bridge and canal st. become avialible?
The Q wouldn't bypass the station. There is no connection for anything like that. So DeKalb would have one 6th Av via bridge and one Bway via Bridge, and the B and N would use the bypass.
Maybe the Q will be express in Brooklyn too, and a new local maybe a K or V will run local on Brighton and 6th Ave to 21st St
Impossible! The V is the Second Avenue Express/Bronx-Staten Island Local.
This is Battery Park, change for the E, R, 1, 9, 4 and 5 trains
The next stop on this V train will be Wall-Pine.
The DeKalb bypass tracks lead directly to the 4th Ave. line. There is no connection to the Brighton line south of DeKalb.
When the C ran to the Concourse during rush hours that meant that it had three different northern terminals and two southern terminals. By moving it the Washington Hts. line all the time, it made for far less confusion for riders. Why change something that is simpler to understand? Really the difference is SO minor as to not even be worth writing about, even though we all are.
The MTA claims the C was too crowd and that is why a switch was implemented.
But what they don't say:
The C ran 8 R32/38 size cars (still does).
And running time on this line is every 8 minutes.
All this may be true but I don't see your point. Want to explain?
Just what I mentioned before. The switch occurred because passengers complained about how crowded the C line was. As a result, the MTA reacted in favor of the passengers by reversing the terminals between the B and C. The C going to 168 Street and the B going to Bedford Park Blvd.
The big problem with the switch, as someone mentioned in another posts, is that the C runs only 8 cars. Above all, the running time on this line is less frequent than other subway lines.
Instead of addressing the running time, they reverse the terminals between the B and the C. Now, the B is running 75 Foot 8 car sets, while the C is only running 60 Foot 8 car sets. What that means, passengers have more room to squeeze into the cars; helping the over crowding situation to some degree. However, the running time on the B is still troublesome (8 minutes).
Look at the equipment assigned to the B. 'Nuff said.
I still wonder why, to this day, 10-car local trains of 60-footers aren't used on IND lines, especially since even local stations have 660-foot platforms.
why isn't the C line increased from 8 cars to 10? is there a shortage of subway cars somewhere?
At about 10:20 pm on Saturday 10/9/99, an slant R40 R train was waiting on the local track at 36th street. Has any one seen it at any time? Let me know.
Hi there;
I have a friend who collects subway maps from around the world. His birthday is coming up soon and I'd like to buy him a map of the city of BOSTON subway - relatively good quality. Even if I have to mount it.
Let me know if you can help.
Andrew L.
Check the MBTA Web Site for their address, they give them away free
In Philadelphia exists a very weird train known as route 100. Its classification (light vs. heavy rail) is disputable.
Specifics of the route as of now are:
1. Runs on standard gauge over running third rail.
2. No grade crossings.
3. All high platforms.
4. On board fare collection with fare zones
5. Runs on one or two car consists-no doors between cars.
6. All aboveground.
7. Double ended cabs.
8. All in the suburbs.
9. Headways:
Peak: Three stations served every 6 minutes, all others (about 20) served every 12.
Midday and Saturday: Every 20 minutes.
Sunday: Every thirty minutes.
Weekday Evening: Slightly less than half of the stations served every 15 minutes, all others, every 30 minutes.
10. Hours of operation (first train starts until last train ends)
4:30 AM (4:45 Saturdays 5:00 Sundays) until 2:15, both AM
What would you call this: light rail, heavy rail or other
I know the line you refer to. It's known as the "Norristown-69th st."
line. I agree, it's not light rail or heavy rail. Maybe we need a new class "medium rail"?
Chuck Greene
10/13/99
Doesn't SEPTA call this a "High Speed Line".
Bill Newkirk
Yeah, because it doesn't fit the convenient definitions of light or heavy rail. As noted, it's a mix of each. By the way, I noticed that Bryn Mawr short turns run up until 8 PM on weekdays and there are even a handful on Saturdays. This is a good sign!
PATCO also calls the Lindenwold Line a "high speed line". But Route 100 & the Lindeowold Line are totally different!
--Mark
They call it both.
They call it both.
The Norristown Line got the "high speed" moniker in the early 70's when SEPTA was trying to build on the success of the PATCO line. To most people around here, it's still the P & W.
I am familiar with Route 100. SEPTA calls it the Norristown High Speed Line. The old timers call it the "P and W", from its original name, the Philadelphia and Western Railway.
It is definitely a hybrid line, because it shares heavy rail characteristics (high platforms, grade separation, third rail) with light rail characteristics (one or two car trains only, on board bus-style fare collection with one operator).
IMHO, I'd call it light rail because it carries light rail size passenger volumes, not heavy rail volumes. Its scheduling is more akin to light rail as well.
Back in the 60's this line was often referred to as one of the last two remaining interurbans. (South Shore was the other). This was because the line did run between Norristown and Upper Darby,which I believe are both cites. Also the line was served until 1949 by a bona fide interurban "The Liberty Bell Limited" which ran beyond Norristown to Allentown.
Paul Matus in his Silver Leaf Booklet #3 makes a good case for calling it suburban rapid transit. Case in point that it does not enter the center city but connects to another line. (Market-Frankford).The same could be said for the present Staten Island Rapid Transit.
Big Interurban cars like the Libertyliners did run here as did rapid transit cars from both Philly and Chicago yet somehow these cars seemed a little out of place. Like trying on a pair of pants two sizes
too small.
I have heard it described as Light rail of a very high order,Light Rail Rapid Transit,High Speed Rail Line and Interurban.
For many years in my ride book I listed it as an interurban if only for the fact that most of the other interurban were long gone. I must admit that now I am leaning toward the "Suburban Rapid Transit" designation.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I would call that light rail in the traditional sense. But it's in the same boat as the Vancouver Skytrain and even BART, as I've read.
I don't know if "medium rail" is a good term, but it applies to these.
Vancouver's SkyTrain, Toronto's Scarborough LRT (which really isn't LRT at all) and even Walt Disney World's monorail are all considered "intermediate capacity transit systems". I think I saw this on a dept of Transportation web site but I'm likely wrong.
--Mark
I thought skytrain was automated heavy rail that ran on heavy rail headways with about 3 cars per consist
I had the opportunity today to inspect a set of the above subway car models at the first day of toy train shows before the big York weekend.
This was my first opportunity to see the MTH subway cars up close and I was quite impressed.
Something puzzled me however...The cars seem to be in married pairs with dummy couplers between the two cars of a pair. The out facing end couplers of the pair are operating. The operating couplers seem to extend out further than the dummy couplers, and as a result when two pairs form a train of four cars, there seems to be much more space between cars 2 & 3 than there is between 1 & 2 or 3 & 4. Is this prototypical of the real cars or is this an engineering problem that MTH was unable to overcome?
MTS Imports always had problems with anti climber clearance because of their drawheads on the R-10s, the R-36s and the KayDees (?) didn't seem to help that problem but overall they run nice and the wheels and contact shoebeams are close enough to reality. There is even a set of main reservoir tanks with the 2YC compressor and Westinghouse propulsion grids. The trucks are two pieces held together with a machine screw assembling one plastic shoe beam to the metal truck/shoe beam assembly. These beams come loose causing frequent derailments along with nice arcing when the contact shoe strikes the running rails. Very realistic! When I bought my set of R-10s back in '86 or '87, I bought an extra 4 axles and filed multiple flat spots for the one I painted green and the little camera motors make a nice whine when accelerating. I guess if you find a shorter KayDee (?) coupler, you can clear some curves while taking up the extra slack so your imaginary conductor can cross from car to car.
By the way, the Transit Professional formerly known as Mr. R-46 is good at painting museum equipment but don't ask him for a "Baked" on finish for your toys. :-)
I didn't buy them. I just had a great opportunity to look them over and admire them.
I guess that the main reason that I did not buy them is that I already knew the Transit Professional would probably not repaint them for me in something like "Redbird Red" ;-)
Harold is referring to the time when I painted his R-10's. I had been told by a model railroad enthusiast friend of mine to bake the finish in an oven. I had mistakenly set the temprature too high. When I opened the oven, lo and behold! The solder had melted and there was a pile of brass where the model had once been.
The silver and blue one I did without the oven, they came out great and Harold still has them.
I'm still looking for an 'N' scale Pacemaker caboose. Wanna take a shot at painting one for me?
Look around at the shows, or on eBay. Con-Cor produced a set of Pacemaker boxcars a few years back in two versions - 12 cars by themselves and another one with 9 (?) cars (different numbers), an engine (streamlined Hudson, IIRC) and a caboose. Expect to pay about $350-$400 for the set with the engine - retail when new was $279. The 12 cars by themselves retailed for $125 or so.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes and The Red Caboose has the set for $400.00. I have 4 RS-3s and 48 Pacemaker boxcars for my pacemaker train so I really don't need the Hudson or 12 more cars. The caboose was not for sale alone. I do have an employee scouring York, PA though.
Good luck! I've never seen one that way, although that doesn't mean you won't get lucky and find one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, sure! Just need a drawing or photo to copy the scheme from. I did a locomotive in conrail colors and a few others, so I'm up to the task.
I have the drawing and the decals, if you're up to the task, let's talk!!!!
Cool, I'm on vacation next week so that's a good time.
Prototypically, the distance between married pairs and between coupled cars is virtually the same. Likely, if you were to check, the distance between the pairs (with operating couplers) is greater than the prototype. This is most likely to accommodate operating couplers. However, if you want to be critical, why not pick the most obvious inaccuracy? The cars are too short, roughly 10 feet too short. Another inaccuracy: The new version is post-overhaul w/o the blue stripe. It's marked as an 'E' train. The GOH R-42s never ran on the E line. Finally the side signs are prototypically correct only for the pre-overhaul R-42s. Why not just enjoy the model as I will once i get mine?
I did not realize that they were ten feet too short. I have never seen the prototype in person, only in pictures. I did think that the doorsets did appear to be rather narrow.
They are still a very attractive considering that they are a toy train.
Awhile back I stated that I remember see some Dual 3rd Rail On the Jerome Ave line back when the Polo Grounds Shuttle/9th Ave El remnant was still operating.
I just purchased Subway to the World's Fair by Fredrick Kramer.
Well, to my suprise, there are some pictures of the the Flushing Line during from that era (one at 69th St) that clearly show the two 3rd rails, one covered, the other open for the El equipment.
It would appear that the covered 3rd rail is distanced farther from the running rails by some (noticable) amount of inches than the El 3rd rail.
I can scan in some of these pictures, (for reference), if needed by NYCSubway/Subtalk.
<< I can scan in some of these pictures, (for reference), if needed by NYCSubway/Subtalk >>
Unless you get permission from the publisher, I believe scanning the pictures into Subtalk would be a copyright violation.
That is why I said (for reference), not publication.
I know that there is fine line between having your own information, and making that information available to others, other than publishing. In some cases, we need some technical or historical information to answer many of the inquiries that are posted here on Subtalk.
Do you think that a those of us who have revelant information on a subject could pool our resources in a catalog, so that inquiries about a subject, that can be answered from some copyrighted material,
can be proved or disproved?
In a general sense, downloading is publication. I have no idea whether the current copyright laws permit this. You ought to find out before doing it.
I think a database is a violation of copyright law. But, if a person answers a question with a quote from a book (and it is clearly documented), I THINK it falls under "fair use" and is permissable.
You would want to document it like you would in an academic paper.
I believe that we can organize a reference citatation library.
That is, a list of articles, boooks, and the pictures contained therin that identify specific topics from A Train to Zoo (Bronx) station. We would have to limit this index geographically, to NYC Transit topics. Other indexes for other localities would be built also with references to each other where they have connections or name similarities. Once the index grows to large for efficient usage, subdivisions by geography or time can be affected.
For instance, a recent posting asked about an overhead view of the Sands St Terminal. One reference that I know of, is page 112, The Brookly Elevated by Geller & Watson. Of course, there would be no need to name the author(s) on each entry, that would be in the Bibliography of the index.
So, the Alpah sequenced entries for Sands St (terminal) would include the above entry along with other citations for other publications with information or pictures of the Sands St terminal.
Creating an INDEX of entries as to where information might be found is a lot different than actually offering up the information (be it text or photographs or whatever). The fine line that you speak of is called "Fair Use" but I don't think scanning a copyrighted photo from a book and putting it on your web site falls into fair use under any circumstances. Also, the index of a book is still part of a copyrighted work. If you wanted to create a master index, you would probably have to do it yourself ignoring any index a book might already have to be on the safe side. That being said, it does sound like a good idea... It wouldn't be too difficult to take a book and make a list of its photographs (like
"Page 112
Book: Brooklyn Elevated
Location: Sands Street
View: From West
Date: x/x/1925
Notes: Shows BMT gate car 925"
(I'm making that up)
Any other comments?
-Dave
I work with intellectual property issues (but not as an attorney).
My understanding is that it would be something like this: if you could limit an index to simple citations (as they do in periodical indexes) it might be OK. For example:
Subject: Brighton Beach Line opens to Bedford Terminal
Reference Type: Book
Title: The Brighton Beach Line by Murton Muffley
Publisher: ABC Publications, 1978
Location: p.123-35
Once you begin to cite the date, details of the opening, etc., you begin to cross a line.
What makes this different from (for example) fairly detailed postings such as you see on SubTalk, is that Fair Use also includes a concept of quantity of information used. If you begin to assemble so many facts out of a work that you start to make purchase of the work optional, this is no longer fair use.
So, if in a book review, say, you mention various things covered in a book and focus on one or two in a little more detail, that's usually OK, but if you start to comment on every single fact in the book, you're going too far.
I think the original concept here was to create a sort of database where if you ask the question, you can be pointed to where to find the answer. But if the database also contains the answer, you risk copyright violation.
Of course, if you assembled such a database for yourself, that is probably OK--it's analagous to taking notes. But if you give that database or a substantial part of it to a third party, or put it on the web, or make more than a purely archival copy, you can be in trouble.
That is what I had in mind.
Thank you.
Another way to look at it is that information per se is not subject ot copyright but the manner of presentation is. Thus, repeating a few facts from a given source, together with other facts from other sources, presents no problems so long as you don't quote or closely paraphrase the sources. However, when you present essentially the same language as the original or essentially the same collection of facts as the original, you are just copying the original, which is prohibited. That's why its called a "copyright."
That's correct.
Whether a piece describing something factual is a copyright violation also depends on some common sense rules.
For example, there is to be a ceremony celebrating reopening of the Franklin Shuttle.
If I were to post the entire Times article about it, I would obviously be in violation. But if I read the entire article and essentially rewrote it in my own words, it might still be a copyright violation, if the article was my only source.
OTOH, if I wrote an article which was really very similar to the Times article, but I wrote myself after I had actually been at said ceremony, there would be no violation at all.
As with many things legal, intent matters.
Thank you for your response.
I will have to write you a long email on the subject.
10/13/99
The BMT D-Types as we know had brass window frames. I was told at least one unit had WOODEN window frames. Is this true? And if this was true,what was the car number?
Bill Newkirk
I am interested in taking the train operator civil service exam. I was wondering if anyone on this site could explain what the job entails and also would they recommend the job, i.e. if they enjoy it, and what are the advantages and disadvantages of it.
Thank you in advance.
How does turning a motor into a generator help slow a train?
How power is the resistence?
Is this like throwing an electric motor into reverse?
>How does turning a motor into a generator help slow a train?
When the motor is not under power it acts as a generator.
>How power is the resistence?
As the current flows it is run through the resistors on the cars. As the resitance in the circuit increases it is harder for the motor to turn causing the braking effect. The byproduct is heat. The PCC cars used it to heat the cars. In the subway it just makes the stations even hotter in the summer and a bit warmer in the winter.
>Is this like throwing an electric motor into reverse?
Not exactly but I will let someone who has more technical knowlege try this one.
Motors and (DC) generators are pretty much the same basic idea, slightly optimised for their respective function. Therefore, if you spin a motor, you get electricity. You can take this electricity and do useful things with it. But if you do that, you apply a load to the motor (which we'll call a motor here, but it's really being a generator). This load requires you to use more power to run the generator. Obviously, if you could draw unlimited power from the generator without creating more of a load, all of the world's electric needs could be satified by a squirrel running on a treadmill.
Now, when a trains moving, the motors turn. If we turn off the moros, the train still moves, and the motors are creating electricity. Now, if we apply a load, we can draw current, and this (resistance) load causes the motor to require more force to tuen. The more current we draw, the more power it takes to spin the motor. Thus, the train slows. If we are crafty, we can vary the resistance on the motor - this will allow us to change the amount of braking. If we short out the motor, we gets sparks and smoke because there's too much current flowing (incedently, jukeboxes use dynamic braking on their motors, and DO short the motors, but since they are tiny motors, we don't get anything besides pinpoint stopping. Some other types of small machinery do this too)
But there's a problem to this. The second the motor stops, it's no longer making electricity. as we slow down, the motor makes less electricity. We can compensate by reducing the resistance accross the motor, but only so much. Eventually, the dynamics "fade" and we need air brakes.
Obviously, you cannot lock a dynamic brake.
Locomotives use dynamic too, but diesels sometimes do it a bit differently.
Another thing is - we don't have to waste the engery as heat, instead we can put it to use lighting the car (the ABB rebuilt FL-9s do this), or even send it out over the power system, but ONLY if the substations can take the power. If there's another train handy, the power just goes there and the substation effectvily just sees a light load (the difference between the power sent out from the braking car, and the needs of the accelerating car)
As for heating up tunnels - regular train brakes would do it too.
As for heating up tunnels - regular train brakes would do it too
We had a heated discussion about this a while back on
SubTalk. It is my assertion that although friction and dynamic
brake systems must necessarily create the same amount of thermal
energy (heat) from the kinetic energy represented by the train's
initial speed, this does not translate into equal temperature
rise in the ambient air in a tunnel. I feel that the dynamic
braking grids would have a much better thermal conductivity to
air whereas friction brakes would tend to spill most of the heat into
the wheel/axle/rail/invert system with a resulting lower temperature
rise.
As most of you know there has been a bit of discussion here about the junction of the Lexington and Broadway Els. It seems to me that within the past seven years a lot of work was done on the Broadway El such as upgrading signals,new walkways and installation of concrete platforms. Perhaps it was during this work that the visible traces of the connection were removed. Does anyone have info on the time frame or type of work that was done. Thanks,
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is a whole group of lost stations on the abandoned lines of the Staten Island Rapid Transit. I visted most of them about 15 years ago and a surpirisng number were intact either in whole or in part. Now that would make a nice ramble one day.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Went looking for the South Beach line last summer. Aside from a few feet of track by the shops where it used to separate from the mainline, couldn't find hide nor hair of it.
As for the North Shore line, wear coveralls and boots and bring a machete.
[Went looking for the South Beach line last summer. Aside from a few feet of track by the shops where it used to separate from the mainline, couldn't find hide nor hair of it.]
Portions of the r-o-w are still visible, although new construction has swallowed up other parts. One section is visible from the S53 bus a short distance before it goes over the Verrazano-Narrows Bridge.
>>>>>>Went looking for the South Beach line last summer. Aside from a few feet of track by the shops where it used to separate from
the mainline, couldn't find hide nor hair of it. <<<
Traces remain of the South Beach line. There are railroad cuts (McClean Avenue) and rusting trestles (Robin Road and St. Johns Avenue). Part of it us rapidly being obliterated by new construction. See my post to Larry for the page on www.forgotten-ny.com where you can find pictures of these.
You can see some old SIRT stations on this page:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/SIRT/sirt.html
Just came back from Vacation, rode BART in SF Cleveland Rail Heavy and Light and Red Blue and Green Lines in LA, Can you beat 88 mph in the subway? Or 54 mph on a light rail. BART From Oakland to San Francisco hit 88 MPH for about 1 1/2 minute in the transbay tube. When I left the train at Stockton St. I asked the operator how come, He said if a Train is more then 3 minutes late the computers trys to make up time by letting it get that high, otherwise the avg is 76 mph. Also On the Green Line in LA, we hit a stretch near Lakewood Blvd at 54 MPH. More news tomorrow too tired
Pretty Smoggy in Arcadia on Monday the 11th, couldn t see the mountains from the 210 at 1.00PM
You crumb---why didn' you look me up? I would have loved to touch base with you. Are you still in the area? I ran in Azusa on Monday. It did't seem that bad. It was hot but I saw the mountains. It is bad this time of year out here with excessive heat and the dry Santa Ana winds. It seems to bring in the smog. Hey let me know when you're in the neighborhood.
I only had 2 nights in LA and made commitments months ago. Only had time to ride the Green Line halfway. But SF was great on the Trolleys and the BART at 88 MPH. Even Cleveland had great rides. Just outside of the Airport is the old NYC/Conrail MainLine with plenty of Action to kill a couple of hours. Glad to be back in Hawaii where the aoir is CLEAR
Although I lived in New York for only eleven years, my family and I
spent many hours riding the subways. I was born a block off Third Av.
at Hegney Pl. between East 156th and 157th in 1953. The South Bronx
at that time was a true melting pot. Our neighborhood was a true
league of nations. There was racial tension, but I was so young that
it didn't affect me that much. From there we moved to Bayside, Queens
and on the Richmond, Va. for three years. Then back to Bayside, on to
Flushing, and ending up on the Pratt Institute campus. Of course, we
had family all over the city. We owned a car and only used it on week-
ends. We then settled ninety miles to the west of the city in Bethle-
hem, Pa. A town with poor city busses, no rail system and cars all
over da jernt. Our local government is being hammered about how bad it
it and the mayor wants everything for free. We will never have a sys-
tem anything like N.Y.C.'s, but we need something. I've been to the
Transit Museum and plan to take more family members in the future. Now
when I ride the system, I can't get over just how excellent it is. If
I didn't have some of the commitments that I have in my life, I would
love to involved with it somehow. Thanks for the memories.
Good post. Your kind works are greatly appreciated.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, if you want to be involved with transit history, consider joining one of the trolley museums as a volunteer. The closest ones to you would be the new one in Scranton, PA - about an hour's drive or less, I think? - and the one in Kingston, New York, which is probably three hours away. There is NYC equipment in Kingston; Scranton's is mostly Philadelphia. A couple of the posters on this site are members up at Kingston, and there's a link to their website from Dave's links page elsewhere on this site; I don't know of a website for the Lackawanna Trolley Museum but there are some photos of it at the East Penn Traction Club website. As of the beginning of October it hadn't opened yet, it's that new. Like a number of other posters on this site, I'm a member of the Shore Line Trolley Museum in East Haven, Connecticut (I just joined last weekend) and there are members of Seashore in Maine as well. There's also one in Windsor Locks, CT with an active volunteer crew, although none that I know of post on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There is a website for the Lackawanna Trolley Museum in Scranton. It is www.visitnepa.org/trolly (yes, the URL has trolley spelled wrong).
The Trolley Museum is adjacent to Steamtown National Historic Site, by the way.
There is a website for the Lackawanna Trolley Museum in Scranton. It is www.visitnepa.org/trolly (yes, the URL has trolley spelled wrong).
The Trolley Museum is adjacent to Steamtown National Historic Site, by the way.
Yes, I've walked around the premises this summer - a few BVTA-owned cars inside, no other sign of life. It was supposed to open Memorial Day weekend, then it got pushed back to July 4th, then to Labor Day. I understand that someone who was contributing a major chunk of money got mad about something and pulled out, hence the delays.
Thanks for the web page citation - I hadn't found that one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I hope to be there; look for a guy and a girl MUCH too dressed up to be in a shop complex!
-Hank
There is a website call TeamATS at www.teamats.com. It is accessible by password only and concerns the new ATS system for IRT, Rail Control Center. The author will not give access to anyone including myself who is in the industry.
See if you get access. Sounds like there must be a pot gold there!!!
In the 7th Ave station on the D line in Brooklyn there are a set of stairs which are gated off. Anyone know where these go or if they were ever used to get people to and from street level? This station can be annoying at times since there is only one set of stairs to the track level.
I think it's a closed mezzanine.
They lead up to passages on either side going to the fare control area, which are visible from the platforms--they're behind the iron grates set into the upper portion of the walls. The doors beside the working pair of staircases are occasionally open, and the space is apparently used for storage. I don't know when they were closed.
We've had a few good threads recently about the projected top speed of ACELA (including the new NEC "record" of 168, and the comparison to TGV at 186 mph).
While we railfans love high speed (and how we WISH the NYC subways would have the field shunt mod undone!), for service such as ACELA between NYC and Boston, the top speed is just one factor. Keep in mind that it's the length of time that the train is at top/high speed that counts. Frequent slowdowns, station stops, and slow acceleration will negate any improvement of travel time realized by increasing the top speed. From what I've read in the ACELA PR material, they're trying to do all those things. Only time will tell, and success will be measured by the number of people that are willing to pay 30% less than the air shuttles, but substantially more than the bus.
Remember, rate x time = distance. A sustained trip at 168 mph vs. 150 mph will get you just 18 miles further in an hour. But slowing from 150 to 90 for a cumulative 30-minute period means that you will travel 30 miles less.
So we shouldn't just concentrate on the top speed. Rather, we should worry about ensuring the train keeps its high speed up (or more properly, its average speed high), by increasing the acceleration rate, and reducing the number of times it has to decelerate for crossings, stations, turnouts, curves, etc.
An excellent point Todd. As any LIRR commuter can tell you, it's not the top speed that's the problem. It's the 6 minutes to go one mile through Jamaica that really slows you down.
Why do the M-1s have such a low acceleration rate anyway? They certainlyaren't as punchy as the M-2/4/6 cars, and nowhere near as punchy as the Arrows are. Wouldn't it make sense to have an MU that accelerates quickly (that IS the point of MU, isn't it?)?
Todd, a comparison of timings of the Afternoon Congressional winter 67 which was speeded up in lieu of the delayed Metroliners, with the actual Metroliners of today shows precious little advantage in end to end times--16-21 minutes with all of the "high-tech" improvements over GG-1's and 1952 Budd cars. Mind you I am not against the progress such as it is, but frankly, the current 'liners are exorbitant(albeit what the traffic...) for a very minor advantage. The NEDir trains are quite adequate and fast enough. North of NYC this will be a major step forward, but I expect the biggest advantage to be the time not wasted changing engines. Do you remember when that was also done at Penn--swapping out GG-1's for 'vacuum cleaners'?
Ok, I give up - What's a "vacuum cleaner"?
EP-4, EP-5, or FL-9?
I think it's an EP-5. But I coulda sworn they were known as 'Jets'
-HAnk
I believe 'jets' was the more affecionate term, but I learned 'vacuum cleaner' in the early 60's from some other railfan, and when I first saw one at Penn, the name seemed obvious because of the vent system.
I can't imagine any locomotive louder than the P-32s. The E-60's are pretty loud too.
Hey - notice something? All GE locos :)
I hope whatever replaces the E-60's (and AEM-7, though they're not as bad) is at least somewhat quiet - I don't really understand the need for all the noise anyway (How many blowers and how much air gets blown through those things anyway?). I mean, some is apparently going to be made, but the P-32 is simply way loud!
One cool feature of the E-60 is after it's been sitting for a while, they start to get quieter....
Try this page out: http://www.transitchicago.com/welcome/charter.html
You can charter a CTA train and run it all over the system!
Wow, let me know, I will fly in!!!
Yes, CTA seems to be much more willing that NYC Transit to allow private citizens to charter subway trains.
--Mark
I need to get to 104 St. Marks Place in New York City. What is the best way to get there. I get on at 149th street and Third ave. in the Bronx.
Check out The New York Subway Finder - it should be able to help you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Take the 5 to 14th, and change to the 6 1 stop to Astor, then walk 2 1/2 blocks or get off at 14th and walk South on Bdwy 5 blocks which is probably faster then waiting for a 6
TO ALL CONCERNED: leaving work this evening, I decided to do a slight detour by riding the C to the Franklin Ave. stop and see what was "brewing" -- and got more than I bargained for!
First of all, the Franklin Ave. token booth that was at platform level has been moved to the street level of the new Shuttle terminal station. I was impressed with the tiling and all the new metal and LED signage. There is still some work to be done to light fixtures and related details. The escalator looked like it was ready for action. There apparently are two elevators for the terminal station. One on the north side of the street (for Rockaway Pkwy/Lefferts bound customers) and one on the north side of Fulton (for city-bound commuters). Since the old el structure was removed access to city-bound C train from the Franklin Shuttle is available via a handsome covered walkway (windows were being installed while I was there -- still needs alittle work).
The token booth clerk was saying "maybe Monday". It actually looks more like another week or so, but if they were to speed things up, I would guess 5-6 more working days and the line could be ready for revenue service.
Well, since I was on my way to a friend in East Flatbush (needing to take the 2/5 to Newkirk Ave.) I took the Shuttle Bus from Fulton and Franklin and went up to catch the IRT at Franklin & Eastern Parkway. Since the bus left me off less than half a block from the Botanic Garden station of the Franklin Shuttle, you can guess where I headed to :-)!
I was surprised to find the station building's gate wide open and completely lit! I cautiously walked down the steps and saw a couple of contractors (electrical) working on some wiring for the token booth. There was a security guard (?) half asleep on a bench in the waiting area. The workers were busy doing there thing -- they sounded Russian or Ukranian and barely noticed me (I was wearing a suit and tie). I walked down the steps to the north platform. It is beautiful!
Unfortunately, the guard spotted me (although I was already on the platform). He wasn't nasty or upset with me -- more likely he thought I wandered into the functional looking station and was awaiting a train that would not be coming -- at least not tonight). I explained to him that I used to ride the line as a child and was just curious about the rebuild. He didn't have a problem with me taking pictures (which I did ;-)).he gladly opened the gate to the connecting passageway. I was impressed with the expert tiling of "Botanic Garden" in white w/green and earth tone trimming. And of course there was the much discussed passageway to the IRT. He gladly opened the gate to the connecting passageway. It is alot shorter than I thought. Maybe 50-100 yards in length it opens up into the area formerly occupied by the TA Police Precinct. On one of the steel support beams is a pay phone. I had my disposable camera with me and was allowed by the guard to take pictures. I have a shot of the "railroad-type tunnel just north of the platform, the tiled wall, the passageway and the IRT connecting mezzenaine.
Seeing everything prior to revenue service was a real surprise! And I can barely wait till we see (and hear) trains along the Franklin once more...
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Sounds like you had a really great day. Thanks for such an interesting post.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Excellent detective and reporting work, Doug! I'm coming to NYC this evening and if I have time I'll try to sneak over. But my guess is you have hit the one-and-only jackpot available!
There was a piece on the stained glass work for that station on Transit Transit a couple of months back.
Mr t__:^)
When I saw the first post of this thread, I thought you were talking about Botanical Garden Station onn the former NYC Harlem Div.
Doug is a Brooklyn kind of guy (lives & works there), although he does get out once in a while, i.e. Shoreline at Branford, Roosevelt Island.
Mr t__:^)
My original family homestead was Brooklyn Heights. However they drifted out to East NY early this century. Then, my grandfather
got married and moved to the Bronx before WWI.
I grew up in the neighborhood near the NYC Botanical Garden Station.
I just read a Daily News article stating that the Shuttle will open on Monday with a ceremony at 8:00am...........
3TM
Fulton St. Transfer to the A and C Fulton/8Av Express and local on the lower level. Across the platform the K making local stops to Halsey St, Gates Av, and Dekalb/Kosciuszko. The B25 on the upper level. Manhattan bound H making express stops to 34 St/ Javits Ctr. The next express stop will be Bway/Myrtle. Transfer available to the J,M,Z on the upper level. The K across the platform. The B40, B46, B54 on the street level. Stand Clear.........
I have completed the first part of rapidtransit.net's first book review (of Brian Cudahy's The Malbone Street Wreck). The conclusion of the review should be posted tomorrow, but I wanted folks to get a peek at the beginning, since there seems to be a lot of interest in the book.
Begin at the Review Home Page or the first Malbone Street Wreck Review Page.
Also on the site is an expansion of Alan Glick's Corrections, with some nice photos.
Your comments, about the review, the book, the wreck, whatever, are welcome.
I haven't had time to read all of the book, but I did get through the chapter on the wreck itself. One thing that Brian Cudahy mentioned is that there were about 650 passengers on the train at the time of the crash. That seems rather high for a train comprised of five 50-foot cars, not to mention one that had already made a number of stops. There's no source given for the 650 number.
How many people fit into a car? then? now? Is there any capacity gain in 75 foot cars (less space between cars).
This is Snug Harbor Center
The next stop on this E train will be Broadway.
>>>>This is Snug Harbor Center
The next stop on this E train will be Broadway. <<<
The E into Staten Island? Never thought of it...that would be a pretty long tunnel.
A more likely one would be:
"95th St., last stop in Brooklyn. This is the R to New Dorp Lane. Lily Pond Avenue, Fort Wadsworth next."
It would be local through Brooklyn and therefore quite slow. The direct tunnel is a better choice, we're not talking money here.
Paul & Alan ..
Very nicely done. An excellent read, both the review and the errors found.
--Mark
After having read Alan Glick's list of errors in _The Malbone Street Wreck_ (not to mention the book itself!), it's important to point out that the errors don't amount to much. They involve the history of the BRT and the Brighton Line, the sort of information that an author who was less of a dedicated railfan would have mentioned very briefly or not at all. None of these errors are more than peripherally relevant to the main story. As far as I can tell, the accounts of the events leading up to the wreck, the wreck itself, and its aftermath are on much more solid footing, with any uncertainties (for example as to the number of dead) clearly pointed out.
I agree with everything you said in your message. I even said as much in the list itself. I still think it important to point out such errors even when they don't impact on the main thread of the book itself. These errors could confuse later researchers focusing on the earlier history you speak of. Some of these errors have been repeated in many different sources thus making it doubly nessesary that they are corrected as soon as possible. I'm hoping that an eventual revised edition takes note of these errors. For those who haven't read my notes and the praise of Cudahy's book therein, I urge you all to read his extremely informative book (while keeping in mind the slight, peripheral errors that have been noted).
The relatively minor status of the errors, and the fact that they do not alter the major thread of the story, was prominently noted both by Alan and by me as editor.
Cudahy is much better than most in indicating when he has doubt, when he makes conjectures, and in hedging information of which he can't be positive. In fact, on the point of the 93 dead, he does not state this as definitive.
As to the events of the wreck itself, his general narrative is both well researched and plausible, but he does reach a number of descriptions and conclusions that are matters of opinion, albeit reasoned opinion.
On the definite positive side, he has effectively set to rest some of the more ridiculous rumors that have become folklore, such as the "passengers electrocuted after the wreck story" spread by, among others, Fischler.
On the other hand, he presents as fact that Luciano went home after the wreck, while I would consider that uncertain.
When you come down to it, a great deal of the story must, of necessity, involve conjecture, and, on balance, Cudahy has made sensible choices in his narrative.
[As to the events of the wreck itself, his general narrative is both well researched and plausible, but he does reach a number of
descriptions and conclusions that are matters of opinion, albeit reasoned opinion.
On the other hand, he presents as fact that Luciano went home after the wreck, while I would consider that uncertain.]
One of the accounts I've read says that when he arrived home, Luciano told his wife that he had been spared because it was All Saints' Day. His wife then urged him to give himself up to the police. It's interesting to note that Brian Cudahy makes no mention whatsoever of the All Saints' Day remark, and strongly implies that Luciano (possibly at the behest of BRT officials) tried to avoid apprehension. His account sounds rather more plausible than the first one I mentioned, if perhaps less colorful.
The All Saints' Day account is from either Stan Fischler's book or from Alan Abel's _Flatbush Odyssey_. I don't have either book available right now so I can't tell which.
The All Saint's Day remark was in Fischler--I don't know where else it might be.
Cudahy refers at one point to "Sunday Supplement" versions of the wreck--meaning colorful versions of the Malbone Street story that were dredged up periodically by tabloids to fill their Sunday magazines, but which were peripherally attached to reality. I wouldn't be surprised if Fischler and others weren't influenced by some of these.
This kind of thing happens in more serious literature, too. During the 18th and 19th centuries, "acting versions" of Shakespeare popped up which were much more accessible to audiences than the language in the plays and often played fast and loose with the bard's work.
The entertaining movie "Tower of London" with Boris Karloff was based on one of these versions of Richard III.
[The All Saint's Day remark was in Fischler--I don't know where else it might be.
Cudahy refers at one point to "Sunday Supplement" versions of the wreck--meaning colorful versions of the Malbone Street story that were dredged up periodically by tabloids to fill their Sunday magazines, but which were peripherally attached to reality. I wouldn't be surprised if Fischler and others weren't influenced by some of these.]
I was just taking a look at Alan Abel's account of Malbone Street in _Flatbush Odyssey_. It's about two pages long, in a book that deals only peripherally with the subway. There are several errors in the account; the number of dead is given as 102 (although it says that 97 was sometimes reported) and it's claimed that many of the dead women weren't identified. Mr. Abel repeats the electrocution story, adding that there were 20 resulting deaths. Consumer's Park is misidentified as Botanic Garden. He doesn't share Brian Cudahy's apparent squeamishness, reporting that some of the dead were beheaded and that brain tissue was found scattered on the tunnel walls.
Appropos of "Sunday Supplements," Mr. Abel cites to _Daily News_ features that appeared on 12/8/74 and 11/6/88. He also refers to the 1992 book _New York Notorious_ by Schwartzmann and Polner, as well as to contemporaneous reports in the _Brooklyn Eagle_. But what's most interesting is that one of Mr. Abel's sources is Brian Cudahy's earlier work, _Cash, Tokens and Transfers_.
Mr. Abel repeats the electrocution story, adding that there were 20 resulting deaths.
Fischler goes further, saying that "dozens" of survivors were electrocuted because BRT powerhouse officials thought the power outage was "the work of union saboteurs."
If true, this is an amazing statement. If you take "dozens" to mean 24 or so, then about a quarter of all the deaths were caused by an error traceable to BRT officials.
This would have been big news, prominently mentioned in all the press immediately following the accident. But it's nowhere to be found. Even the lightest source research (like reading the papers of November 2 and 3, 1918) would have debunked the story.
Paul,
> http://3522066703//...
What exactly are you trying to do here, or more imporatantly, why are you using this address format? It is at best a hack and does not work behind most proxy firewalls (such as ours at work), or ISP's like AOL where most web traffic is funneled thru caching proxies. What it boils down to is that you're not providing either a valid IP address or DNS-resolvable fully qualified host name. More people would visit your site if you provided your links in legal formats. It might look "cool" but in the end, it renders your information inaccessable to certain viewers.
-Dave
I didn't realize that this caused problems, Dave. This is currently on a shared directory on my wife's website. The domain name rapidtransit.net is forwarded so that I can't give a direct link that will work, such as http://www.rapidtransit.net/book/reviews. This will not resolve properly.
Lest you think I'm hiding something (like maybe I'm going to secretly transfer people to a site with naked ladies on BMT Standards ;-) ), here is full disclosure.
The current IP address is 209.238.121.15
The domain name at that address is lookingglassart.com
www.rapidtransit.net is lookingglassart.com/ot/rt or
209.238.121.15/ot/rt
I don't have a link to the book reviews on the main page yet, because I wanted to finish the Malbone Street review first.
You can reach the Book Review page at 209.238.121.15/ot/rt/book/reviews.
I'm moving the site to its own server soon, so you can use normal links and people won't have any problems bookmarking individual pages.
Sorry if this caused you or anyone else problems.
Meanwhile, once you get in, did you like the review?
Not for nothing but I was able to receive all of Paul's links from that posting and I don't even have a computer, I have WebTV!!
I found the review to be well thought out and objective. Thank you Paul and Alan.
(Note: I had no problem with the URL using Microsoft Internet Explorer from AT&T Worldnet Connection)
As for the wreck itself, I often wonder what the current subway system would be if that train had made the curve uneventfully. Would the IND system as we know it have even come into existence, would the then planned line to Staten Island have been built, would the Franklin Avenue Line go to Astoria? Obviously, the answers to such questions will never be known.
But it is clear that one fateful event on the evening of November 1, 1918 that led to the bankruptcy of the BRT forever changed the "face", or veins, of the New York City Rapid Transit landscape.
Cudahy makes the case, and I concur, that the Malbone Street wreck was actually peripheral to the BRT's bankruptcy--it was the terms of the Dual Contracts, the BRT's enormous debt load and the five-cent fare that actually caused the BRT to seek receivership. The wreck might have hastened that a bit.
And not all the BRT was bankrupt even then. The Brooklyn City Railroad was solvent, but the court took jurisdiction there too, for operational reasons.
The Malbone Street wreck did give the demagogic Mayor Hylan an early (first year of his mayoralty) opportunity to present the BRT (and by extension, any major business providing services in NYC) as a demonic force. So, in this sense, it helped his (and later LaGuardia's) drive toward municipalization.
Hylan's two terms, followed (after a break for Gentlemen Jim) by LaGuardia, destroyed the viability of a free enterprise rapid transit system and also set the tone for a style of confrontation politics that is quite alive in NYC today.
[Hylan's two terms, followed (after a break for Gentlemen Jim) by LaGuardia, destroyed the viability of a free enterprise rapid transit system and also set the tone for a style of confrontation politics that is quite alive in NYC today.]
It's interesting to wonder whether the IRT and BMT would have survived as private companies without all the political pressure. I highly doubt they'd still be around today, but it's not at all hard to imagine their survival well into the 1950s.
Anyone know where the unfinished station above the G is located? I don't know thw name. Its blocked off by a metal gate. It is part of the unbuild subway system.
It's above Broadway, it was to be called South Fourth Street. This site has PLENTY of data on the proposed system.
This is Jersey Street
The next stop on this E train will be Snug Harbor Center.
I think you are referring to the never used South 4th St. staton, which is covered extensively in the IND Second System part of this website. Access to what was built (just a shell, no station) is made from a doorway at the Broadway G station.
There is also another unfinished station shell at Utica and Fulton St. for the never built Utica Ave. line. You can clearly see it as the A/C train passes under it at Utica Ave.
Spent last night in Washington D.C. Took Metroliner #100 back leaving at 5:35 am. Got about 1 mile outside station and locomotive
blew traction motor. Reverse move to Union Station got us back at
6:02. Wouldn't you think they would hold 6:00 Metroliner for the
passengers? Not. Got replacement locomotive and started on our way
at 6:20. Skipped New Carrolton, BWI and Baltimore, arrived at NYP
9:15, 45 minutes late. Bring on ACELA!!!
Lots of PCCs in trolley yard south of 30th St Station. What is new
station being built between No. Elizabeth and Newark? What is going
on w/Secaucus. It looked like a ghost town.
[What is new station being built between No. Elizabeth and Newark?]
Connection to the Newark Airport monorail.
[What is new station being built between No. Elizabeth and Newark?]
That's NJT new Newark International Airport Station. Basically the Port Athority is extending it's monorail system at Newark airport to this station, thus allowing a more direct rail service to the airport. (Right now you have to take either the 302 Airlink or 62 bus from Penn Station, Newark if you don't want to take a cab.)
[What is going on w/Secaucus. It looked like a ghost town.]
That's the Secacus transfer, it's suppose to allow riders on the Main line to Hoboken the ability to transfer to a Penn (NY) bound train and vice versa with out having to go to Hoboken and taking the Path.
I know, but it doesn't look like they are working on it. Last time
I was thru there was after Newark PCC field trip, looks like nothing
has changed.
I was a car passenger on the NJ Turnpike through the Secaucus area today -- there seemed to be plenty of action working on the transfer station today. Sometimes, to the unknowledgable like me, these projects seem to grow in spurts -- nothing much going on for a long time, suddenly a major structure rises almost overnight, and then a long wait while they finish the details. This is probably one of those times.
Chuck
So they refunded the Metriliner surcharge over what "Direct" would have cost for the slower trip right?
Heh, last time I was on an Amtrak train that was late (1 hour, 45 min), I got into a nice argument over the conductors desire to punch my ticket (he won, I don't know why). Anyway, comming out of this was t5he fact that an amtrak train isn't "late", until it's something like 3 hours late. And you thought the LIRR was bad with their 5 min 59 secs thing! Anyway - DOES amtrak ever give refunds, even on the Metroliner?
Amtrak will probably make some accomodation if you write them a polite letter indicating that you were disappointed with their service and that it was not your understanding that this was how poor their customer service would be - etc...
Remember that the conductor has no authority to give you a break on your ticket.
Amtrak customer service in Washington DC has I think about 3 times in 10 years - given me some sort of satisfaction over disappointments in service. This usually has come as a certificate good for X$ value on your next purchase of Amtrak tickets.
I don't work for them and can't promise you that they will handle your situation in the same way. But they have been more than fair with me in the past by responding to polite and very specific issues raised in a letter. I suggest you try the same. Be sure to have the exact details including train number, dates, times, etc..
Ask them for a specific amount of refund equal to the amount of your ticket.
You may be pleasantly surprised.
Old Shuttle Rolls Again on Monday
Clicky, clicky!
thank you
Paul, thanks for the post. I will try my darnest to be there at 8 a.m. Monday morning. It would be cool to ride on the first revenue train out from Prospect Park (assuming the first run is originating from there and not Fulton St.) I'll give TA a call to confirm which end is the starting point for the big event.
Doug aka BMTman
THEY SHOULD HAVE THE MUSEUM D-TYPES BREAK THE RIBBON FOr THE REOPENING CEROMONY
does anybody know or guess what type of cars they will be using on the shuttle this time around??? im sure for the inagural run the cars will be sparkling clean for the t.a. brass to ride in....
R-68
This is Jay Street, transfer to the A, C, M, R and W trains
This F will be running express to Kings Highway and then local to Coney Island.
No can do. The Franklin shuttle is R68 OPTO with cars 2916 to 2924 as the pool of cars. D types are not OPTO.
They can run TWOPTO just for the ceremony, but it's not happening anyway.
This is Farmers Boulevard-Hollis Avenue, transfer to the Z express
The next stop on this J train will be Francis Lewis Boulevard.
Unfortunately, the BMT standards aren't OPTO, either. That would have been neat, pulling out the surviving three-car set for the reopening.
I think they could've managed to put a conductor on the standards, for historical purposes.
FWIW, I remember when full-length trains (8 B-types, 4 D-types) had two conductors. Ditto for the other divisions. The elimination of those extra conductors is what won the no layoff clause in conductor's contracts.
Prewar IRT trains of Hi-Vs had two conductors per train if the cars on the ends had manual doors. Once the BMT standards were all retrofitted with MUDC, only one conductor was needed to operate the doors. The Triplexes had MUDC from the factory, as did the R-1/9s.
Once the BMT standards were all retrofitted with MUDC, only one conductor was needed to operate the doors. The Triplexes had MUDC from the factory, as did the R-1/9s.
This is so, but in practice, Standards had a second conductor for 8-car trains (though I seem to recall, covered just the rear two or three cars) and the triplexes had a second conductor with the split being the first conductor between units 1 and 2 and the second between units 3 and 4. This ended in the 1950's when the TWU allowed single conductors in exchange for a no-layoff clause.
This was considered a safety, labor and crewing issue, not a technology one. Just as it would be possible to go OPTO on much more of the system physically, but it would be blocked for the same reasons.
I stand corrected. That's interesting.
I said TWOPTO, the trains that Paul just talked about are TPTO and a fully automated train is NOPTO.
This is Chatham Square
The next stop will be Grand Street, change there for the B, D, J and M trains.
If you're running just a D-type unit (137 feet) it can be OPTO for a day, using inside door controls, though the motorman (it seems like an anachronism for a Triplex to have a "T/O") would have to get out of his cab for a left side platform.
10/16/99
I seen a color slide of D-types on the Culver shuttle (one unit) in revenue service. Now since the cars have outside,between the car door controls how could be rectified? Simple,by plugging in a remote door control unit by the left railfan window. That's why the drop sash has a wide area for a conductor to operate the doors if one unit was used. I think Paul Matus can back me up on this. I don't know if any of these plug in remotes exist anymore.
Bill Newkirk
The D-types. also the Q's, maybe also the C's had outside lever door controls which were duplicated inside, but I think the handle was removed on the inside unless needed.
They would operate without a key, anyway.
IIRC, the interior door controls on the Triplexes did not trainline; i. e., they could only be used to operate the doors of that particular unit, as was the case if a single Triplex unit ran alone.
My belief was that they duplicated the function of the outside control--i.e., they would open the same doors as the equivalent outside control.
However, there was really never any need to use the inside unless there was a single unit in service. I don't know of Triplexes ever being used as singles except on the Culver Shuttle, but single Q's ran all the time.
Back in the late 40s early 50s the West End Shuttle from Bay Parkway to Coney Island ran a few 1 unit Triplex Cars to connect during rush hours. This was during the big shortage on the Southern Division
If the BMT was so short of steel cars why did they use steel cars on the West End Shuttle instead of wood? MAkes no sense ...
They ran 3 trains in the rush hour, usually a 2 car Standard A-A, a single triplex, and a 3 car Q unit. Usually from 7-9 AM and 5-7PM. The shortage did not stop even after the Standards on the Eastern Div were replaced in 1955 by R-15s(or 16s). I remember watching them as a small child from my mothers classroom at PS 212, on Bay 49th and Harway
Why Triplex, they always ran 3 car standards in the 40s-50s
I think you could only platform two BMT Standards.
Does the TA have two operable Standards?
Lets wait for an important event to use the old equipment like a transit anniversary or for a well publicized fan trip. (or even the Milenium New Years Eve) But not for the renovation of a 4 station line that most New Yorkers couldn't care less about.
10/16/99
Better still let's use this equipment for the best important event ever. THE CENTENNIAL CELEBRATION !! It's only four years away. We gotta do something!
Bill Newkirk
When the Franklin Shuttle reopens and I find out the motormans name is Ed Luciano,I'm gone !!
10/16/99
Paul,
Unfortunatly the TA has NO operating Standards. SIGH!!
I guess we can forget resurrecting the R-11's. Even though when scrapped years ago some bodies,uncut,intact were rumored to be seen in a freight yard in New Jersey on flat cars. They were rumored to be headed to Texas to be used as restaurants. OH MY GOD !! I think I just made the SubTalkers crazy!!
Bill Newkirk
What about 8013 at the Transit Museum? I heard that every car on display runs except one. Which one I don't know.
It's probably 8013. The car could use a great deal of work, mechanically and cosmetically. Just to tell you how shoddy the work was on the car (Budd, and then the TA), apparently one of the components (behind the ads in the car) in the car overheated and caught fire several years ago. Fortunately, it was only minor.
To do this car over would cost a bundle $$$. After all, it's not even in the original 1949 scheme of things. Rather we see what the car appears as in 1965, the time the TA did the cars over.
-Stef
Yeah, I even mentioned the 8013, sole surviving R-34 to one of the transit officials at yesterday's event. Too bad they didn't drag it out coupled to an AB Standard.
Doug aka BMTman
The article say that Dean Street was the first station to close in 33 years (Worth Street 6, 1962). This is wrong. What about the stations on the Third Ave. El in the Bronx, the Myrtle in Brooklyn or the Jamaica east (south) of 121?
This is Clove Road
The next stop on this E train will be Port Richmond Avenue
Maybe the meant on a existing line, not one that was being abandoned. Next stop on the LACMTA RED LaBrea Tar Pits and Wilshire
And when was 91st Street on the Westside IRT closed?
1959 - when the platforms were lengthened at 86th (to the north) and 96th (to the south). There are some pictures and more information (including the date closed) elsewhere on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Virgil E. Conway will be there for the first ride. Look for Larry Reuter and Joe Hofmann too.
I thought he was E. Virgil Conway, and I must ask, what position does Joe Hofmann hold?
This is 34 Street-Javits Center-Madison Square Garden, transfer to the 7 and Y trains.
The next stop will be 42 Street
For all those SubTalkers going to the open house at Harmon shops: Anybody want to meet? When? Where? I should be there by 1010 (if MN gets me there on time!) Is there a password we should use,or what?
I'm going, my first time there so I have no Idea about the area. most likely I'm going to catch the Hudson line out of GCT because I'm comming out of NJ. If anyone is going thru GCT is it possible I can meet you there. I'm not that well versed on the Hudson line and a little company would be nice.
Oh, I'll be watching the game tonight rooting to beat the band for the Mets, but let's face it, we've had it. Somehow we have to find a way to beat the Braves and haven't. We constatnly blew opportunity after opportunity in two games in Atlanta, and only a three-game sweep over the Bravos in NY can even give us any chance at all. Are there really any people out there who really believe it will be done? Watching the games will be a fool's errand but despite my pessimism I'm hoping for a miracle. With it the #7 train can become the train of crowds, gaiety, and hope. Otherwise the #4 train will get all the glory taking the multitudes to Yankees Stadium where they can cheer for the hated Yankees.
Um, the Mets are only down 2-0. The same thing happened to the Yankees in 96, and the Mets in the 86 World Series, yet both won. They aint dead yet.
I agree with Chris. In game 1 and game 2, the mets played a good game, but came up short. In game 1, the ninth inning was impressive, they scored another run...but didn't get the other runs that they needed. In game 2, if only Valentine took out his pitcher 1 or 2 pitches early, those 4 runs would not have been scored. Somehow, now that these are home games, I believe that the mets are determined to catch up, and hopefully win the series. And like you said, the yanks were murdered in the first 2 world series games back in '96, yet they came back to win the next 4 agains the braves.
Of course, I'm not even a Mets fan...I like that team in the Bronx. Hopefully 2 or 3 more games against the Sox will put us in the series, and we would love to see the Mets there if possible. No matter what the outcome, the subway series would be great for New York...so let's not doubt the orange and blue team just yet.
"It ain't over till it's over" (Yogi Barra) -Nick
Maybe you guys are on to something. However, you don't give a team like the Braves opporotunity after opportunity, and then squander those you get. The Mets must stop doing that, and since we can;t see to beat the Bravos in Atlanta, a sweep in New York is a must because our best shot would be one of two in Atlanta. We'll see.
The Mets can't seem to take the pressure of high expections. They'll probably play better now than they are "out of it" just as they did in the regular season.
Still, the Braves are a great team.
Also, the Yankees lost in their own home turf, and a lot more uglily than the Mets. The Yankees had to win all the away games, the Mets have the home games now.
This is South Avenue
The next stop on this E train will be Victory Boulevard.
Looks like the next stop with be Peachtree Center, Not Willits Point. 3-0 now I HATE THE BRAVES almost as much as the LA Bums
Got to admit, though, the Yankees and Braves are the two best teams of the 1990s, and the winner of this series will be number one. If the Braves win and number of championships is 2-2, the Braves get the nod for their other world series and playoff appearances, and consistent excellence. If the Yankees win they are the best due to 3-1 in championships, 3 #1 teams in four years, and the best record ever in 1998.
After last night Larry, believe me, I can wait. Boy was it torture. The Mets can't buy a clutch hit and I never saw so many base hits with two outs. Disgusting.
I'd like to know what Bobby Cox sold to the devil to make his team so &%$#@ lucky this season. Nobody wins that large amount of close games all year by design. Something smells ...
Chris: I thought the same thing in one of my darker moments but the Yankees have been doing that a lot of late. It will be interesting to see who is luckier or who sold his soul to the devil when they meet in the World Series. A pox on both their houses.
Well the Yankees have thrived on a century of borrowed luck from Boston....I'm not sure how to explain the situation with Atlanta
Maybe that they still had that luck from Boston (they used to play there). Maybe it's a city kind of thing.
This is Hempstead Avenue
The next stop on this J train will be Springfield Boulevard.
J trains to Springfield Blvd? LOL.
They're not going to Springfield Boulevard, they're going to the Belmont Raceway.
This is Rockaway Parkway
This L will be running skip-stop with Y trains to Manhattan.
The next stop will be New Lots Avenue, followed by Livonia Avenue where transfer to the 3 will be available.
10/16/99
At this writing at 7:49PM,the Yanks are getting tatooed by the Bosox!
Seems as though this so called subway series has the inspiration of the Second Avenue subway !!
Bill Newkirk
Q. WHAT DID THE FRENCH CONDUCTOR SAY AFTER HIS TRAIN DERAILED ???
A. TOO LOOSE LA TRACK !!!
an old maintenance of way joke!
Now that the Mets are only down 3 - 1 they don't have to worry about comming back from 3 - 0 anymore. A three game to one deficit has been done. The 1971 Pittsburg Pirates did it against Baltimore and lets not forget the 1986 Boston Red Sox against the Annaheim Angels. Anyone for a rematch of the 1986 World Series, when the Mets were only the second team to lose the first two games at home and win the series. (Kansas City in 1985 was the first and the Yankees in 96 were the third).
The Mets this year were only the second team to be two games out going into the last weekend of the season (3 games) and still got in. The other team being the 1962 San Francisco Giants. You you never know.
You gotta believe!!!
Chief Noc-A-Homa say: Chop Chop!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pardon this obvious question but....
Is it called a "subway series" because the two teams are close by two different IRT subway lines(I don't follow baseball so I really don't know)?
Because the subway is the best way to get around the city and therefore to get to both stadiums. Remember that it's just as easy for fans of any one team to go to the other's stadium. The Angels-Dodgers interleague play is called the Freeway Series. The NY series can be just as easily called the Expressway Series.
Remember, the term "Subway Series" was first coined back in the 1930's when New York had three teams, and most people didn't have cars and travelled by public transportation, (subway, bus, trolley, etc.) The term is used today to bring back the memorable world series of the past between the Yankees against the Brooklyn Dodgers or New York Giants. The last one played was in 1956.
Most people travel to Shea or Yankee Stadiums by car, however, a fair number still take the subway since both staduims are adjacent to major subway lines.
By the way, the score is still tied at 2-2 going to the bottom of the 14th inning. Oy vey!
They won it in 15. Tug McGraw's old battle cry is still valid: you gotta believe!
I'm actually starting to believe they can do it. It's 1969 all over again.
That game was increadible. I never thought they would be able to top both of the games 6 from 1986 (the 16 inning game in Houston and the Bill Buckner Show), but they did.
Have you heard any interviews with John Rocker? The guy is off his rocker!!!
In retrospect, I wish I had taped last night's game. I remember both games from 1986, especially Game 6 of the World Series. When the Mets were down to their last out, I said out loud, "It's going to take a miracle now." When Ray Knight scored the winning run, I must have screamed "Can you believe it?!?" at least a dozen times. That game is available on video; I saw a copy a couple of years back at the Mets' Clubhouse Shop on 5th Ave. and grabbed it. It's part of a series entitled, Baseball's Greatest Games. I believe Game 3 of the 1969 World Series is also included. It was on TV a few years back and I taped it; it was strange to see a young Nolan Ryan firing bullets. Of course, that game is best remembered for Tommie Agee's two circus catches.
I bought my first VCR a few months after the 86 World Series ended. About two years later, NBC rebroadcast the entire game 6 of the World Series in its entirity which I taped. My only disappointment is they cut back to Len Berman in the studio only seconds after Ray Knight touches home plate and they didn't show any of the celebration.
I had cought the end on Sports Channel when it was under basesballs greatest games and they stayed with it for about five minutes. I saw the 1969 game three rebroadcast. They also have one for game 4, with J.C. Martin clearly running out of the baseline. The quality was poor becuase it was recorded on video tape, not film, and the video quality 30 years ago was not a good as today.
IIRC, NBC didn't stay on too long after Game 6 ended in 1986. I'll have to replay my video copy; I think it cuts out right after Vin Scully said, "If a picture is worth a thousand words, you've just seen a million", or possibly after he said the Mets were indeed alive and well, thank you. The video copy was trimmed down to just over two hours; the one-two-three innings were omitted. The actual game time was something like 4:06.
The video clip of J. C. Martin bunting in Game 4 in 1969 is included in the Mets' 25th anniversary video. If you look real close when Martin is still in the on-deck circle, you can see a 7 train cruising past in the background. It's taken straight from the NBC archives; Lindsey Nelson did the play-by-play during that inning.
I also have a video transfer of the 1969 World Series film, narrated by Curt Gowdy. The only annoying part is that there are overdubs every time a hitter makes contact with the ball. Even the bunts are overdubbed, but with a slightly different sound.
I was there ALL weekend(I came down from Boston)...and through EVERY inning on Sunday. That was BY FAR the GREATEST game I have ever been a part of. I even have the final few innings on tape(was going to tape Third Watch. After watching the fabulous 15th again on TV, I was amazed to see just how much it was POURING during the game. We hardly noticed. I had to take an overnight train back to Boston after the game....and it didn't leave until 2am(1 hr late). Needless to say I was too wired to sleep:)
(Leiter didn't have it in the first inning...I would love to see them pull it out again..but realistically, I am glad they at least sent it back to Atlanta)
It was fun taking the 7 express out to the ballpark Friday night. When I came for the subway series this summer, the #7 was down to 10 cars. When did it go back to 11?
Once the weather cooled down, the non-air conditioned single R-33s found their way into the consists once again.
I didn't see the game, and it was a shame the Mets couldn't hold 8-7 and 9-8 leads, but at least they didn't quit. All they need to do now is figure out how to handle the Braves at Turner Field.
It will go down as one of the greatest playoff games. It's too bad they lost.
This is the #7 Train to Little Neck Parkway. Bell Blvd. will be next.
Mark, Jeremy and Bob: No Mets fan can say they are not stiff back proud of their team. Our Mets gave it all they had and are an advertisment for courage. Hey, God willing, we will see them contend next year and who knows? They have a great team---TEAM! They play as a unit, they like each other and they hustle for all they're worth. I can see them going all the way within two years if they keep this team together. Resign Olerud.
I'm sorry to say this, but I didn't believe the Mets would win two in Atlanta to go to the World Series, I thought all hope was lost when they went down 3-0 in the series. I was right. But it was still a fun ride, and the only thing I regret about last night's game, not the lead they lost, but they way the game ended with a walk, WHY did they intentionally walk those players? That was so stupid.
This is 59 Street-Queensborough Bridge, change for the N, Q, R, W, Z, 4, 5 and 6 trains.
The next stop on this V train will be 86 Street.
It was a bad decision by Bobby Valentine. He wanted to set up for a force play all around. I would have walked Chipper Jones, but that is it and try my luck with first and third.
This is the F Train to Lakeville Road - LIJ. Springfield Blvd. will be next.
Where is Lakeville Road? My plan would invlove either the E or J/Z trains.
This is Cypress Avenue
The next stop on this Q train will be St Mary's Street
Lakevill Road is on the Queens/Nassau border. I propose to extend the Hillside Avenue Line as far as Winchester Ave. Have the line go under Winchester Ave. to Union Turnpike, continue east and end at Lakevill Road. That stop would be easily accessable to Long Island Jewish Hospital.
Mark.
I meant Lakeville Road. I forgot the e in the last message. Sorry about that.
Don't worry & next year they will kick ass with the brave also i want John Rocker to keep his mouth shut.
Peace Out
Meaney
Ladies & Gentlemen, boys & girls children all ages. This is a conductor, this train is making express to 125st & we are sorry because there is a fire at 77st. Thank You & have a nice day
I was more impressed that they clawed back from the 5-0 deficit. Obviously I am disappointed that they lost on a bases-loaded walk, but it has been a wild ride for the last month...and I am glad it happened. Congratulations to the entire TEAM. They had a great year.
(Anybody remember Alcoa's "Fantastic Finishes" during NFL games?? They could make a month's worth of clips based on the past few weeks)
Jeremy: That goes double for me. What the Mets need next year is a solid go-to-guy, a real horse that can be the No. 1 starter. With such a player we could get into the World Series.
Get rid of Rogers and Leider. Next year 2000 World Series Yanks and Mets 2001 Super Bowl Giants and Jets, Knicks need a backup replacement for Patrick/ The Rangers, need the 1994/95 team back. This year Yanks in 6
Im letting the Braves off easy and say in 6 as well...........
3TM
Eastechester Rd. Transfer to the Bx31. The next station will be Allerton Av. Stand Clear...........
I agree with dumping Rogers, but I would keep Leiter and get rid of Yoshi. Also, Henderson and Bonilla. Melvin Mora should be the everyday leftfielder, he can play. Ordonez needs to go to bunting school. also Oral should be in the bullpen. Since we don't know the status of Bobby Jones, adding a starting pitcher or two is the #1 priority.
This is the #7 to Little Neck Parkway. Francis Lewis Blvd. will be next.
I read all the "LETS GO METS" postings. Nobody addressed the key issue here. Yes, I totally agree that Kenny Rogers should be put out to pasture, but what about Valentine. He was playing with fire, putting Rogers in a tie game in extra innings in the first place. How stupid can a manager be, leaving Rogers in after ball 2 with the bases loaded. He had the rookie, Octavio warming up. He did great in game 5. Valentine should have used him instead of Rogers. Rogers was a disaster for the Yankees. Why the hell did the Mets pick him up? What the Mets need to do in the off season is get rid of Rogers, Yoshii and Valentine. They need 2 more good ace starters if they're going to make it next year. They also need a good manager. Why not pick up Mike Hargrove. The Indians let him go after Boston beat them, but lets remember all the post-season success that Hargrove brought the Indians in the past.
I had my heart set on a Subway Series. Now, I'm licking my chops, just waiting for the Yankees to make dog meat out of the stinking Braves. John Rocker and Larry Jones, eat s***t!!
I agree with you about Valentine. Let's not forget the stupid roster move he made by keeping Bonilla active for post season and not Luis Lopez. With Lopez, who can hit and play shortstopp, they couldn't pinch hit for Ordonez who bunts worse than a little leager. I think Mike Hargrove will be excellent for the Mets. But you know, they won't do anything. They will probably end up trading Dotel for some over the hill pinch hitter who won't last the season.
Mark
I meant to say without Lopez, they couldn't pinch hit for Ordonez.
The biggest question: Did the Mets learn from the Nolan Ryan trade??!!
I believe their greatest fault was in mismanagement of the pitching staff, letting guys pitch only an inning or even only a batter. If Armando Benitez had anything left in the tank at all on Tuesday night, he would have blown away the Braves in the 10th and that would have been that. Bobby V went to the well once too often and came up dry.
I do not think they are talking to him, but what about Don Baylor? Or how about Hershiser? He is supposedly under consideration for the Indians' job. Tons of better choices than Mr. (There's an anti-Italian conspiracy out there) Valentine.
Phillips and Wilpon should call his bluff. Then he could take the Motorman's exam.
Baylor's not a bad choice for manager. How about this one: promote Cookie Rojas! His feistiness reminds me of Billy Martin.
I'm a Yankee fan, and as such not 100% objective here, thought I may try to be. I really think that while the Mets are a very talented ballclub, that they are really not championship caliber. Heart and guts and desire and luck and adrenaline can usually take you only so far (1969 being a possible exception). They just played too many elimination games---you can't get everyone to their emotional and performance peak every game ---ballplayers are human too, and you just run out of physical and emotional fuel.They have good players, but they are not solid enough overall to overcome certain obstacles indefinitely---I don't know that any team is. I can't help but think that playing 81 games at home in Texas takes just a litle bit too much out of the Rangers, even with maybe 60% or more of those games being at night, under conditions that are quite hot compared to other clubs.
I am a Yankee fan also. I don't believe that the Mets could beat the Yankees in a World Series. I just wanted a Subway Series. I never experienced one. I was 2 years old when the last one was played. I figured that the Mets could win the Pennant as the Wild Card. The Marlins went all the way as the Wild Card 2 years ago. I also have a personal hatred for the Braves. If I had my way, they would never play in Post-Season again. The Braves play dirty. They do whatever they can to injure players on the opposing team. They strut around all puffed up and have this obnoxious pride, like no other team can match up to them. They also know how to shoot their mouths off with offensive obnoxious comments. Someone better tell John Rocker and Larry (Chipper) Jones to learn sportsmanship and how to hold their tongues. The Braves are not the greatest team in baseball. The Yankees are. No team has ever matched the amount of Pennants and World Championships won by the Bronx Bombers.
I read that Hargrove may go to Baltimore
Hey guys, have things changed that much over the decades. I hear many Mets fans saying they're rooting for the Yankees in the World Series. NOT ME!!!!! When I was a kid in New York, no Dodger fan ever rooted for the Yankees. We hated them. The only time I ever rooted for them was in the 1996 Series because I felt for Joe Torre who never managed a league champion and never was ever in a World Series, as a player, manager or otherwise. I still like Torre, but I still gag at the memory I rooted for them at all. The Braves are the team of the 90's and I think they'll take the Yankees in six games. As for the Mets, I agree that there was no way Bonilla should have been on the post-season team. He kept relatively quiet this year but you know he will be a cancer next year if he's not in the lineup. Pay him off and get his fat butt out of town.
The Braves are not the team of the 90's. The Yankees are. As for the Braves winning in 6, you'll eat your words next week!
I'm not one for predictions---anyone still alive now has a team that's good or excellent. I also believe in jinxes, (as foolish as it seems), but I have to like the Yankees' chances this time.
I don't believe in jinxes, but there must be something to the Curse of the Bambino!
Yanks in 6, There is also talk about Willie Randolph being a Manager in the next couple of years, How about for the Mets. Then we will have 2 Brooklyn Boys as Managers for the New York Teams. To Sea Beach Fred, How is the Smog Today?
How can you root for the team that beat the Mets? I would NEVER no matter what, root for the team that in the postseason eliminates my favorite team. I hope the Yankees repeat the sweep. I know it's not going to happen, so I'll be happy if they win in five. I also hope the Braves eat some bad fish on the plane and get sick, especially John Rocker and Larry Jones (I refuse to call a grown man Chipper).
This is Second Avenue-14 Street, change for L, V and Y
The next stop on this W train will be 23 Street.
Chief Noc-A-Homa say: we make sushi out of Irabu and the Yanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Like I told the other Braves fan earlier today, you'll eat those words next week. Go Yanks!!
The term "Subway Series" goes back to when the Giants played in the Polo Grounds which was only one station away from Yankee Stadium. When there was a Yankee/Giant World Series it was said that each team would take the train the one stop from their homepark to the other stadium. It was actually so close that they shared parking lots. When I was little my dad took me to a Met game at the Polo Grounds (yes, they played their first 2 seasons there b-4 Shea) and I remember he parked at Yankee and we walked over the bridge.
Actually the Giants and Yankees played each other in 1921-22, when the Yankees were tenants of the Giants in the Polo Grounds. Those years in particular, the Series was called the Nickel Series, as in a nickel being the fare for all public transport. The term Subway Series really didn't come into use until the 30's when the Yanks played the Giants twice in the series (1936/1937), and the forties, which we all know about of course....Also, off the subject of baseball; Notre Dame used to play a lot of games at Yankee Stadium in the 30s and 40s(especially an annual bloodbath against Army)The rabid ND fans that crowded YS got to be known as the "Subway Alumni"...
And I'm a bigtime Notre Dame subway alumnus. It's true that most of their games at Yankee Stadium were played against Army, the last time in 1969. Other teams ND played in that arena were North Carolina in 1949 and Syracuse in 1963. The 1965 Army game was played at Shea Stadium; IIRC, it took place a week before the World's Fair closed.
That was one helluva comeback against Southern Cal.
Bill--That was a so-so joke but I'm sure the Red Sox will take it. They need a few laughs right about now. Did you see how the umps screwed them royal Sunday? Some of the crappiest cals I've ever seen. And they're supposed to major league umps. If I hadn't been feeling so good about the Mets' great 15-inning victory, I'd have probably thrown a chair through the screen
eat your heart out Fred, the Yanks just took the 36th league championship and next stop 25 World series
src="http://members.tripod.com/gifs123/sports/yankee
s.gif">
WE WON!!!
WE WON!!!
Not so fast Brighton Beach man. The World Series has yet to be played. But your arrogance is so typical of Yankee fans that I can well remember why I've despised that team all of my life. Root for the Braves to win tonight because if the Mets get into the Series, as sure as God made little green apples, your Yankees are going down.
Right and the Mets will take both games from the braves(i would like to see them do that) Next you are going to wish that the Jets and Giants will win all their remaining games and play in the Super Bowl.( iwould like to see that too)
Bob #1 Brighton Exp: Not me. I'm a Dolphins fan. Can't stand the Giants or Jets. I used to love the Raiders until they moved back to Oakland but we keep hearing they might be coming back to Los Angeles. If they're smart they won;t until they are guaranteed a new stadium because the Coliseum sucks big time and the neighborhood is crappy. Of course, if the Raiders come back we would hope that Al Davis stays up there because he is one first class classless sob.
Fred, did you see the ad in the times and daily news back in 95 selling LA TRaitors T Shirts, with the Raiders Logo on it, he could not be sued for copyright because he had the eye patch on the other eye. I have one somewhere around the house, and who ever would think that the Lambs would be the only undefeated team at this point of the season?
Brighton Bob: I heard of those shirts but never saw them. I wish I had I would have bought one. The first four years the Raiders were in Los Angeles I went to almost all the games. Then the politicians started playing politics with them, and even though I despise Al Davis he had a point. The idea that the state, LA County and the city of LA all have s say on the Coliseum Commission makes getting anything done an impossibility. That's why the Rams, Raiders, UCLA, the Lakers, etc left the Coliseum and its nearby Sports Arena. If the NFL ever comes back LA they'd by idiots if they built at the Coliseum because they would have to deal with the morons of the CC. My big problem is if the Raiders came back. Would I go back to them? I really loved that team while they were here and I died when they lost.
UCLA left the Coliseum because they did not feel comfortable there, it was across the street from USC, and even when they were the home team they felt like the visitors. the Rosebowl gave them a great deal, even though the drive to Pasadena is twice as far. I know how they felt since I went to UCLA in the mid 60s, we hated to go to the Coliseum, but at that time I lived only 4 miles from the place.
I will NEVER root for the Braves, the Yankees are my favorite AL team, but I wish some disease strikes those damn braves. I hope that they live up to the exact opposite of their name, the Pacifca Cowards (well, not the Pacifca part).
This is St. George Harbor, last stop in SI, change for the E
Next on this V will be Battery Park in Manhattan, change there for the E, R, 1, 9, 4 and 5 trains.
Don't fault the Braves, they played well. I, however would love to get a crack at "Goldberg" John Rocker's face ...
Greetings, all...
Just came across an article in today's Tribune outlining plans the CTA has to upgrade a sizable portion of its rail and bus fleet. The plan involves 150 new rail cars to replace the 2200's. Interesting to note that the 2200's are the most reliable cars in the fleet today.
No mention of who will be building the new rail cars... I assume it won't be Morrison-Knudsen since they're no longer in the railcar business. I wonder if the new cars will simply be more 3200's, or if they have something new in mind.
Chicago Tribune Article
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
We can re-gauge the M-3's and send 'em over fast.
The M-3 could not operate on the CTA rapid transit. The M-3's or Budd cars as I like to refer to them, are just a little big for the restrictive CTA structures and stations. The 'standard' CTA car is 48'/8" in length, whereas the Budds are 55'. The width of the CTA car at the floor is 8'/8", whereas the Budds are 9'/1". Close, but no fit.
Interestingly, the M-3 Budds were build in 1960-61 at the Red Lion plant, and the CTA 2200's were built at the same plant in 1969-70.
The 2200's have keep their sharp appearence over the years and when trained with the younger 2600's on the Blue Line, they appear to be the newer car. The dead give away however, is the 2200's are equipped with blinker doors. These were the last fleet of cars to be delievered to the CTA with that door type, as that door type is not conducive to ADA requirements.
Jim K.
Chicago
"The 2200's have keep their sharp appearence over the years and when trained with the younger 2600's on the Blue Line, they appear to be the newer car."
"The 2200's have keep their sharp appearence over the years and when trained with the younger 2600's on the Blue Line, they appear to be the newer car."
I completely agree. It's disappointing that the CTA can't run any all-2200 trains anymore due to ADA. The 2600 pairs, in some cases, look like they were stuck on the end of the train as an afterthought.
(The insides, of course, are a whole different story.)
On the other hand, the all-2600 trains on the Evanston line look just fine. So, why are they stripping them all down at Howard? The unpainted sides stick out terribly in comparison to the other cars on that line.
(Oh, and sorry about the previous post.)
"On the other hand, the all-2600 trains on the Evanston line look just fine. So, why are they stripping them all down at Howard? The unpainted sides stick out terribly in comparison to the other cars on that line."
I like the new look of the rebuilt 2600's. The paint and decals were getting very shabby after years of exposure to the weather. IMHO, the rebuilt 2600's look crisp and clean. From head on they look very much like the 3200's now. And when the entire Howard fleet is equipped with rebuilt cars I'm sure you will agree the older paint scheme had outlived its usefulness.
I would wager to say that the clean sided rehabbed 2600's will present a look of newer equipment for the riders and hopefully those riders inconvenienced last January will have a more positive impression of the CTA.
Jim K.
Chicago
http://www.yourcta.com/news/ctaandpress.wu?action=displayarticledetail&articleid=116553
here is the addres from the CTA presidents news release describing the capital plan.
He was on NBC -5 this AM talking about it. The reporter hounded him on the taxes needed to pay for the improvements. I did not hear him go after Gov. Ryan for the highway improvements or the other things included in the state capital inititive that is helping finance the improvements.
I saw a solid 8-car train of 2200s heading out of O'Hare in June of last year while enroute on the people mover to the international terminal. That was a surprise!
"I saw a solid 8-car train of 2200s heading out of O'Hare in June of last year while enroute on the people mover to the international terminal. That was a surprise!"
It sure was a surprise, because if it was a solid consist of 2200's, and it was an 'in-service' train, then it was illegal. A solid trains of 2200's violates ADA complience.
I don't say that I agree with the law, I'm just stating facts.
Jim K.
Chicago
How would it violate ADA compliance?
This is 42 Street-United Nations, change for the W local and the 4, 5, 6 and S trains.
The next stop will be 59 Street-Queensborough Bridge, change there for the N, Q, R, W, Z, 4, 5 and 6 trains.
Each entrance on a 2200 has two sets of folding doors with a waist-high railing inbetween, and with the entrance cut in half, there's not enough clearance for a wheelchair. All later cars have one set of sliding doors per entrance and no middle railing, so there's plenty of room for a wheelchair to pass.
Thank you John for clarification. I forgot to mention the 'blinker' doors.
Jim K.
Chicago
I would have loved to see that... I've always thought the 2200's have the nicest-looking exterior lines of the CTA fleet. The 2200's are the only series I know of that actually had architects involved during the design process; the architecture firm of Skidmore, Owings and Merrill was hired by the CTA as aesthetic consultants for the project. (SOM is the same firm that designed the Sears Tower and the Hancock Center, as well as a number of other notable projects throughout Chicago and around the world.)
Although ADA compliance is a big pet issue with me, it always sort of bugs me to see a nice, sharp-looking consist of 2200's interrupted by a pair of 2600's. The 2200's even have a unique sound to them. It will be a sad day when they are retired from the fleet.
The blinker doors are pretty cool... It's always amusing to see some dumb moron stand right in front of the doors as the train pulls into their stop, only to get smacked as the doors fold inward to open. This is usually after they've been riding the train for some distance and had ample opportunity to observe how the doors work.
I also like the fact that all the seats on the 2200's are front/back-facing... I hate sitting sideways, and I know that I always have a better chance of getting a forward-facing seat on a 2200. (Same reason I like the BMT/IND trains in NYC much better than the IRT.)
Seems like a bit of a waste, considering all the 2200's were rebuilt less than 10 years ago and have an excellent maintanence record. The CTA can't even keep its elevators working at supposedly "accessible" stations, and all of a sudden they're worried about accessibility issues with the 2200's??? What a crock... But then, nobody has ever accused the CTA of competence. (As a side note, once again the CTA finds themselves in the middle of a public-relations fiasco, this time involving fishy real estate dealings.)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
P.S. As a fan of both the Chicago Cubs and the New York Yankees (I suspect most Cubs fans are also Yankees fans -- Gotta have something to cheer for each October), I have every reason to hate the Mets. However, I was really hoping for a subway series and was disappointed to see the Mets lose to the despised Braves after such a valiant fight. My congrats to the Mets for such a spectacular series! As we're used to saying in Chicago, "Better luck next year..."
Does 1969 ring a bell? All I have to do is mention that year to Cub fans and they cringe. I remember it well. The Mets blew by them in September like an A train of R-10s roaring up CPW at full speed.
Anyway, the blinker doors on the 2200s (and, for that matter, on the 2000s) are quiet. The ones on the 6000s were noisy. I haven't ridden on the 2200s much, maybe three times, but I liked them. The 6000s definitely had a PCC flavor to them, even down to the crank handles for the windows.
"The plan involves 150 new rail cars to replace the 2200's. Interesting to note that the 2200's are the most reliable cars in the fleet today."
I think the plan is to replace the remaining 142 cars of this fleet with a like number of vehicles.
I also question if the 2200's are really more reliable than the 3200's. I ride the Brown Line everyday and the CTA runs the wheels off that series of cars, both on the Ravenswood line out of Kimball, and the Midway line out of the airport. Now if you want to compare the reliability of the 2200's to the 2600's, pre-rebuilt, I might be more inclined to agree.
"No mention of who will be building the new rail cars... I assume it won't be Morrison-Knudsen since they're no longer in the railcar business."
True, MK is no longer around to build cars; however, Alstom, the current contractor that is rebuilding the 2600's, took over the car building business from MK. Unfortunately, Alstom will have to bid for the new fleet; however, it would be great if they could step in take the contract, as their plant in Hornell, NY is already tooled up from building the 3200's and rebuilding the 2600's. It would make sense that they would be the best choice.
However, doing something that makes sense, and doing something the CTA way, are not always the same.
On your last point, it would make very good sense for the CTA to follow the plans of the 3200's. CTA has worked very had to get a fleet assembled that can train with any of its sister series. Following the specification of the 3200's would only continue that goal.
Jim K.
Chicago
I have seen another design for this series:
The card has a white woman with blonde hair and a tan suit talking on a white phone.
I have seen one with a Latino woman in a dark outfit.
Let's see that makes 4 different ones so far. I wonder how many more there will be.
Here are the 4 I've seen:
Female- blue top
Asian Male
Female- Black Top
Female- beige top talking on phone
10/16/99
ENOUGH ALREADY!! New Metrocards to collect coming out everyday...I tell you,it's driving me crazy!! Pretty so Bellvue's gonna open a Metrocard collectors wing!!
Bill Newkirk
PASSENGERS ARE STRONGLY CAUTIONED AGAINST LICKING THE THIRD RAILS !!
The promo mat'l mailed had photos of five induviduals, but info we got from the MC Prod. Develop. group said FOUR cards in series.
Assume these four are it ?
Mr t__:^)
Which of the 5 pictures did not make the set of four?
white male in open coat & white shirt (no tie). Has his mouth open & hands showing making a point.
Mr t__:^)
Do they have one for the subways?
hey there ... saw on eBay that there are some HO brass IND R10 models for sale (http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=179508698)
thought I'd mention it here
enjoy
MC
We talked about this once before. If you have permission to reprint these articles here please indicate that you do. If you don't, then please don't reprint them here. Without permission you are violating copyright by posting entire articles verbatim.
If you got it from their web site, an alternative idea would be to post a link to their page and simply add your comments.
-Dave
This article was posted on the CTA's web site for public viewing and displaying. I'm sure they are glad to get as many people as possible to read the article.
If you are really that conecerned, it is copyright the January 1999 Chicago Transit Authority.
People always post articles from news papers on this site and give credit to the paper just as I have done with the CTA articles, they get the credit for the article.
The Link is Yourcta.com, news, published articles, and the title of the article.
I don't see any copyright laws being violated here. If I am please tell me what credit I have to give besides Jan, 1999 CTA.
BJ
> People always post articles from news papers on this site and give
> credit to the paper just as I have done with the CTA articles, they
> get the credit for the article.
Yes, and I delete them just as fast as these, when I see them. I really am that concerned after having received a note from a New York newspaper about items posted here some time ago. I'm glad it was just an emailed note and not a letter from their lawyers. Reposting is NOT simply a matter of giving credit. Copyright is a matter of PERMISSION. If you don't have permission to repost their material, please don't!
That goes for anyone, with any published article.
-Dave
O.K. Next time I will post a link!
BJ
Just a quickie:
The Staten Island Advance web page (www.silive.com) allows you to email the article on the page. Can that be interpeted as permission to republish? Because hey, I could email it to a newsgroup, or a mailing list, couldn't I? I don't really want to have a problem with this, because as a photographer, I wouldn't want my photos used without my permission.
-Hank
No.
Staten Island Live Copyright Notice
This site © 1999 Staten Island Live. All rights reserved. The material on this site may not be reproduced, except for personal, non-commercial use, and may not be distributed, transmitted, cached on proxy servers, or otherwise used, except with the prior written permission of Staten Island Live
Personal means you. The page which lets you e-mail "to a friend" asks for your e-mail address and the friend's e-mail address. They are granting you permission to send the article to the specified friend.
You may be friendly with a newsgroup. It is not a friend. It is distribution.
You may want to include a short blurb about this right under the "post response" or at the top of the "new posting" page to remind people of this.
--Mark
I had added R40Slant,R40M & R42 subway's pictures on my subway page. www.angelfire.com/ct/nyctmtasubway/index.html
Peace Out
Meaney
PS More Subway's Pictures will add next week.
How's Atlantic Avenue going? I haven't heard about it for a while.
Atlantic subway or Atlantic el?
This Jamaica Center, transfer to the E and Z trains
The next stop on this J train will be Merrick Boulevard
You will be able to transfer to the Z at every upcoming station.
Or the 1834 Atlantic Ave tunnel? heheheh
"Change at Columbia St. for Red Hook Waterfront trolley"
What if the architect for the Atlantic Av project is dyslectic and the take down the Van Sinderin El instead of the Snediker El?
I think the City should consider renaming Van Sinderin as Railroad Ave. due to the fact that the entire street is nothing more than a road paralleling both the Canarise Line and the LIRR Bay Ridge branch. I once read that the street was an after-thought from the days of street-grade ROW of the Canarsie RR, sort of like a service road for rail lines.
(I realize that there used to be a Railroad Ave. not far from that location -- it is now Autumn Ave. I wonder why they made that name change?)
Doug aka BMTman
Come to think of it, who IS Van Sinderen, and what did he do to deserve a street named after him?
10/16/99
"Come to think of it,who IS Van Sinderen,and what did he do to deserve a street named after him"?
THIS SOUNDS LIKE A JOB FOR.......KEVIN WALSH !!
Bill Newkirk
The way you said that, it sounds like it was a job for FORGOTTENMAN!
This is 50 Street
The next stop on this L train will be 57 Street.
I don't know but I'll put my 3½¢ in: Van Sinderen was probably a Dutch farmer or landowner way back in the 1700s or 1800s when the entire area was somewhat less urban than it is to-day. He may have been a friend of Lott (he of the Road to his House) or perhaps Van Siclen.
Wonder exactly how many "Van" streets/avenues/boulevards/ etc. there are in the five boroughs.
Wayne
Lotts :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One word comes to mind: oops!!
Hi. I'm taking a little pole that all subway buffs should be interested in. What act, in the history of the New York City Subway, made you clutch you stomach and vomit for days? Below are the candidates. Please e-mail me your vote, and I will put the winner on my web site at www.angelfire.com/ny2/subway/index.html. Thanks!
1. The Bronx section of the Third Ave. El replaced by the BX55 bus.
2. The destruction of many of the Eastern Division Lines like the Lexington Line, and the Myrtle Ave. El.
3. The scrapping of the Manhattan East Side Els BEFORE the Second Ave. subway was built.
4. The failure to build the Second Avenue Subway.
5. The sickening plan to build the Second Ave. to 63rd Street only.
6. ANY trolley line being replaced by a bus.
Please e-mail your vote and check my website in mid-November for the winner. I vote for 1.
I wasn't alive for any but 4+5, so I'd say it's 4.
This is Merrick Boulevard
The next stop on these J and Z trains will be 177 Street
Sorry, it's the next stop on this J train, not Z. Z doesn't stop there.
This is 177 Street
The next stop on this J train will be 183 Street.
Can I make up my own?
#1 The modifications to the service braking system
#2 The resulting Field Shunt modifications
#3 Removal of the individual door fault lights on the exterior of the R-46 cars
#4 Replacement of the P-Wire brake control system on board the R-46 cars
How about the hiring of Joe Hoffman?
Harry, Joe Hofmann (Correct spelling) came up through the ranks. I first met him in 1984 when he ran Jerome Shops. Shortly there-after, he went on to become the Supt. of Command Center and then came back to DCE as an Assistant Cheif mechanical Officer. Therest, as they say, is history.....
I'd vote for going with 75-foot cars in general, R-46s notwithstanding. Not to mention this malarkey with WDs, GTs, and no field shunting.
How about half of the tracks on the Manhattan Bridge being out of action fo 20 years plus?
I was going to say the demolition of the Myrtle Ave. El below Broadway, but I think the Manhattan Bridge fiasco is much worse.
I have a way to force the city to replace the tracks with tunnels:
blow it up.
(just kidding, i take no responsibility for anyone dumb enough to try this)
[I have a way to force the city to replace the tracks [on the Manhattan bridge] with tunnels:
blow it up.]
Why bother? It's probably about to collapse on its own accord.
I mentioned this once as the only solution for the problem. Anybody up for a nice quake?
This is Steinway Street
The next stop on this N train will be Hazen Street-Rikers Island Causeway
How about a Calif Style Earthquake?
Didn't I just say that?
This is 86 street, change for the V
The next stop on this Q train will be 96 Street
This is 96 street, change for the V
The next stop on this Q train will be 106 Street.
With a magnitude of 8 on the Richter scale.
Waiting 60 years to begin building the 2nd Avenue subway then giving us, for all intents and purposes, a long spur off of the 63rd Street line.
Number 5 most definately.
I would like to offer a write-in "candidate" - the whole Manhattan Bridge fiasco.
How about making the D Train a Local in Brooklyn, otherwise 1
Brighton Beach Bob: It's your Sea Beach pal. Guess what? We had a 7.0 earthquake early today. I'll bet you are glad you're in Hawaii. Shook the hell out of us but it appears that we suffered no damage. The problem is that these things come without warning. A price we have to pay for living in this great state, eh?
Hey Fred, I know about the Earthquake? Don t remind me. I live in Northridge during the 94, and the Valley in 1971, and all the others between. Beside it was out in the desert. I still wonder what will happen when one hit s New York, but we discussed it before.
Well there is the Q that runs as an express on the Brighton Line, so what's the problem?
None of the above. Watching the Jamaica Ave el get demolished in the late 70's actually DID make me vomit because it forced my mother and me to take busses to get to Jamaica, and as a child I had severe motion sickness on any vehicle that didn't have tracks running under it.
[ Motion Sickness ]
When I was in grade school, I got a reward of a trolley ride to the terminal for a good report card. My mother always took me. We went to Bristol Street or 1st Avenue of the Church Line, or Coney Island on the Coney Island or McDonald.
One time, for variety, we took the bus to Ft. Hamilton. It made her physical ill.
Hey Tony: There are two things that sicken me. One is the Manhattan Bridge fiasco and the fact that my Sea Beach can't travel over it. The other is when I came to New York in 1974 for the first time in 20 years, I found out, much to my chagrin, that the Sea Beach no longer carried the number 4 but was known as the N train. That made me sick and made me realize one part of my joyous childhood was history.
You probably also noticed the Triplexes were gone by then as well. Their premature withdrawal has to rank up there, too.
Unification.
-Failure to extend service further into Queens as per Contract II proposals.
-Gradual elimination of accessible front window.
I'm looking for some track maps, including chaining codes, of the stillwell ave/ coney island area on all four lines, could anyone give me a direction.....?
Thanks, Dave
You won't find them on the web but you should pick up Peter Dougherty's Tracks Of the NYC Subway book. See http://www.quuxuum.org/pjd/trk-book.html
-Dave
Come to think of it, I don't think his book has the chaining codes, but maybe he can point you in the right direction.
-Dave
[Come to think of it, I don't think his book has the chaining codes, but maybe he can point you in the right direction.]
Joe Korman's site might have chaining codes.
For the clueless among us, can someone provide a definition of the term "chaining codes"?
Thanks,
Chuck
Ever looked at a subway signal? Those codes on the white plate are chaining codes, they are different on the IRT and BMT/IND. Here they are:
IRT
A
1150
A=line letter (every set of tracks has one)
1=track number, even is southbound, odd is northbound (Shuttle is north when going west, 7 is north when going east). 1, 2 are expresses and 3 & 4 are locals. Middle tracks are M.
150=distance in hundreds of feet from 0. zero is a point on each line from which distance is counted, sometimes it is slightly off the line and therefore there is no point 000.
BMT/IND
A1
150
A=still route letter, BMT and IND maintain their own sets.
1=track number, here the system is reversed. odd is south, even is north (all lines except for Nassau are counted on their Manhattan or G crosstown orientation, Nassau is reversed, L is south away from Manhattan). 1 and 2 are local, 3 and 4 are express and on middle tracks, the signals use 3 & 4, depending on direction.
150=same as IRT, but the IND (not BMT) uses a wierd system. The distance between W4 and the NJ border, directly along the centerline of the station, is the chaining code there, it continues N & S (ascending N, descending S). The Crosstown line continues from I believe the Queens end.
This is 23 Street, Chelsea Piers
The next stop will be 34 Street-Javits Center-Madison Square Garden, where you will be able to transfer to the Y express and the 7.
See A Complete Guide to Signals for some information.
-Dave
Thanks for voting, but please try to e-mail your vote. Moterman2@aol.com
My Page. Train Buff Headquarters
Weird things started happening this afternoon, as I boarded a Queens bound R train at Canal, and it was announced that it was making express stops. We were on the express track on the Broadway line, and the trip to 34th street was so much faster. What happened to put the R on the Broadway express track? That was something special.
Getting out of Manhattan today was just plain agrivating.
I had planned to take an A train south from Penn to Canal, then an E to WTC and then the E back to Queens. Got an A train which seemed to be very late and crowded (at around 4:30pm). The A was stopped at 14th street and an E came in on the other platform, so I switched there. Then we were stopped at W4th, there was an announcement that the E train was terminating and to go downstairs to BDFQ. Out of disgust, I took a D back to 34th, and after riding 45 minutes I needed to use a restroom in Manhattan Mall (precious commodity).
Then I walked back to the ACE at Penn, and waited for a Queens bound E train. And waited. There were no announcements, as I saw nothing but C's and an A train pull up on the local track. When the A train came, I got on and took it to 42nd and transferred to the 7 train.
Got on a really packed 7X (a bit more than usual) and we crawled through the Steinway tubes. I was in the front car trying to get a glimse out the window and saw the WD sign, now they are using them on the 7? That was one slow ride today, and the crowds at Queensboro invaded the train. I just had to get off, I felt like I was on the slow train to China.
Went out on the street and waited for a Q32 or Q60. Got the Q32 and took to the 74th and Broadway station in Jackson heights. Went upstairs and waited for a Flushing bound 7. 10 minutes past and still no train in sight (except for a 7X). Went to the Queens Blvd line, and waited for a train (any train) that would take me east. They made announcements there were service disruptions on the E/F because of a problem at 5th avenue, and, at WTC.
After about 8 minutes an E pulled up on the local track, got on this R32 and we switched to express track, and moved along pretty well until before Jamaica Van Wick, we were held by a red signal for about 5 minutes. I got off at Sutphin and got the Q44 to Flushing. I got there at about 7:50pm, almost three hours after first trying to leave Manhattan.
So, I'd like to know what happened today with the E/F, and with that R train on the express. Only other fun I had today was flying through the 60th street tube on a Manhattan bound R32 N, which seemed to be alot faster than the R68 N I was on Queens bound.
It seems there have been alot of headaches with the Queens Boulevard IND line (E,F) this year. And when something goes wrong there, it seems the whole system has trouble handling the extra load.
The R train may have been late or there was a train with mechanical difficulties on the local track between Prince st and 34st.If the E train was terminating at W4st, it is likely there was a switch problem at WTC(The E train was probably sent to 2 ave on the F to relay for Queens bound service.There may have been switch problems at 5 ave also. I'm glad I was off today!
The R may have been late, so in order for it to make up lost time, the dispatcher at City Hall made the decision for it to run express.....On the Queens IND, in the height of the rush you have a train every 2 1/2 minutes between Fifth Ave. & Continental. All you need is the slightest problem, and it's all over.......There was a track fire outside WTC during the rush. It was caused by rubbish in between the rails. My train (Todd Glickman had the railfan window) was the last to leave before service was suspended for a little over an hour. FDNY came to put out the fire and to shuffle around the debris to make sure it was completely extinguished. That, turning off power, FDNY walking the tracks to do their business, walking back and getting power back on takes time. Some E trains got turned at Canal St. spur track, some at Second Ave., some via the BMT to 34 St., and at least 7 got rerouted toward Jay St. One R got rerouted to Jamaica Center, (E line kept the train), and one G got sent (train was not kept).
Must've been chaotic at WTC when the evening rush commuters found it wasn't running! There was mention that the E train that I got off of that it was to turn at 2nd ave and be out of service, however I had trouble finding any E's on the IND line or the BMT line in Manhattan.
All I know is what I heard "This E train is now out of service due to a problem ahead. Please go downstairs to wait for E on F platform, as E trains will be reversing at 2nd ave. Repeat..." Were any trains stuck in between stations because of the track fire? Perhaps the rats may be to blame for this track fire as well. Saw quite a few big ones today on 34th street/Penn, also at the Herald Square BDFQ station as well.
That E I boarded at 74th and Broadway arrived on local track. Which line did it originate? Did the E go down the BMT Broadway Line (where the R would be)?
Also there were problems with the F as well, as I heard the announcements at 74th/Broadway say there was also a problem at 5th avenue. And it was kind of odd to be waiting for a 7 and only see 1 go by (a 7X) when I was waiting for it for 10 minutes (and gave up) at 74th and Broadway.
Also earlier in the day I was on an uptown 1 train at Chambers being held for some reason, so when the 2 came in across the platform I took it.
Part of the problem is the Queens IND is a very major line, critical to moving rush hour commuters. When the line ir partially disabled, such as delays/recuced service on E or F trains there is overflow onto other lines (such as the 7) causing delays there and so on.
I just wish they would've made announcements in the stations in Manhattan because I did not hear any about the service interruptions today.
Indeed, I had the pleasure of riding with Bill from Maspeth through the "fire scene" just north of WTC station. It was just a little debris, and there was some light smoke. Bill did a super job of communicating the situation to Control on the radio, and to his passengers on the PA.
Later, I was on the train of R-42s "loaned" to the E from the R. I could tell by the passenger information signs in the train, that described the upcoming N/R GO.
Later I went to the NYD/ERA meeting, and met up with a number of fellow SubTalkers.
Today's a Transit and Weather Together Day, so unfortunately I can't go to the open house! But it's great weather for it...
Slip of the finger. That should have been R-32s, not R-42s loaned from the R to the E!
A bad day for the IND:
First a G.O, took out the Rutgers (F) line tunnel so A and F ran through the Cranberry (A) tunnel.
First A: n A train went BIE (Brakes in emergency) just outside Broadway/Nassau. This halted A and F service for a while. Then they started moving again and they had major signal problems at West 4th. For the uninitiated, ALL IND trains except the G runt hrough West 4th-- this brought chasos to the Manhattan (uptown) IND.
Block tickets were issued-- SUpervisor just jappened to walk into my station as I tore open the tickets and agreed that I was right. The first problem- none issued, then there was a huge gap in E service- I called the tower and found out the news. Tore them open again , took a deep breath and made the annoucement and then I got nasty remarks--why didnt you tell us before we went in. "I'm sorry--I just called the tower to find out why there was no train and they told about a new problem--major signal problems at West 4th"
After this problem-- there was yet a third: A sick customer at Roosevelt in Queens (where E trains were turned due to a G.O. that will be going on till Monday at 5am.)
I did not announce that since trains were running at my station and it was expected (and did last) for a short time.
yes- I did keep order in my station and never had to call for police to control the crowds.
That was the 4:02 A Far Rockaway that had signal trouble. The D was not immune today either. There was a flood on C-1 track between Bedford park and 205th St. All service terminated at Bedford park until nearly noon. As late as 1:30 PM delays persisted due to crews and equipment being out of place. I love a quiet weekend....
It seemed like everything went wrong Friday, especially on the IND.
I really wanted to get the front window of an R32 E from WTC to Kew Gardens, but wound up going from Roosevelt to Sutphin instead. Wanted to check out the new connection, plus the long tunnel between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt ave. Well, maybe next time.
When I saw the E pull up on the local at Roosevelt, how did it get there? Did it come in through the regular E/F tunnels or did it used the 60th street tube?
Regular route in the 53rd street tube
I was wondering what was going on Friday afternoon. I was on a slant 40 Q coming up from Brooklyn(around 6pm). We were switched over to the local track at Bway Lafayette and came in against the wall. I was at the railfan window, and I heard the motorman have trouble raising the W4TH St tower. We ran express(motorman stopped outside 23rd St till light turned yellow at end of station, then went through). LOTS of people at each station waiting for an F. There was also a 6-8 minute wait outside 34th St while a B train was being dealt with(don't know what happend). The express side of the stations were empty, while the local side was PACKED. Lots of confused faces as an empty train kept pulling in to each station.
Can't help you. I arrived at Jamaica Center about that time and I was out of radio range for that area.
How much did it cost?
Should've taken the LIRR!!!
The R-32s ARE faster than the R-68s.
Next season when the Mets play the Yankees in regular season interleague play of course. You didn't think it would be a World Series did you?
This is 183 Street
The next stop on this J train will be Farmers Boulevard, transfer there to the Z express.
Thanks for sharing, EDT.
( Groan )
I, as much as everyone else wanted to see a Subway World Series, but I doubt the Mets will become the first team ever to recover from a 3-0 deficit. So, I've lost all hope.
This is Springfield Boulevard, the last stop in New York City.
The next and last stop on this J train will be Belmont Raceway, Nassau County.
Well, yeah. Unfortunatley for their fans, the Mets players didn't.
Yeah, the MARTA extension from Georgia Dome to Kenmore shold be finished any day now. ;)
I saw 1205/06 in a train yesterday, which means the order is almost complete (the highest pair will be 1219/20).
Also, the NRHS's "Cinders" reported that 1034 and 1074 will be put out for bids for repairs resulting from a sideswipe accident in the 69th St yards last spring. For some reason they will not be returned to Adtranz for this repair.
I saw 1207/1208 about a week ago... Almost there!
Two questions on the 2000 calendar
Re: the February picture, is that the 39-Bebee Station? If it is, then that parking lot to the left is the lot to the medalion cab company (Metro Systems) that I worked for in the 70's while going to college right up until the time I entered the NYPD. What year was the above picture taken. From the cars (not the "D" type ones) I assume the mid 50's.The old gate cars on the rear cover say "New York City Transit System" on 'em. I assume that was after the IND-BMT-IRT merger. Did they put that on all the gate cars? I never saw that on the other pre-war cars. (The R1-9's did say "City of New York")
10/16/99
Re:Jeff Rosen
1) Yes,that's 39th Ave.-Bebee on the Astoria Line. I believe that lot with the cars is where the excavation for the 63rd St connector.
2) I don't know the year. The year was not on the slide and was a duplicate also. If you look at those cars,you don't see any from the very late 50's,you know,the longer models with those fins!
3)Yes,it was after the unification of the system. In fact,Don Harold who examined the photo said that the white "notices" seen the windows are for the termination of "elevated" service over the Brooklyn Bridge. I'm not sure that all ex-BRT "gate" cars had that lettering on the letter boards but,most of them did.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Bill, Its really great to be able to read something and be able to ask the author questions about it on line. By the way, during the 70's (as I said) that parking lot was the lot for Metro Systems Cab Company.(a regular yellow medallion company) During the day when the cabs were all out they charged $1 to park there. Alot of the drivers who had private cars put their car in the same spot as their cab when they started and were still charged a dollar. I wonder if the company was there when that picture was taken.
10/17/99
Jeff,
On that parking lot , maybe not , they may have changed hands over the years. Also since you and others who have questions pertaining to my calendar , I'm happy to answer you since this is a laid back operation and not cold publishing company. Glad to be on down to earth !
Bill Newkirk
Hey Folks! Before this day (Oct 16) is done, go to: www.petoftheday.com there is a story connected to the picture that is relevant to this site. (Although the initial reaction from people must be interesting...)
Gee, when I saw the url petoftheday I thought it was going to be a PENTHOUSE site!!!
Camille is *so* adorable! To think that she gives kisses and loves to groom people. But yes, I could imagine that the reaction from other subway riders, when they see Camille poking her cute little head out of her carrier, is somewhat unusual :-)
This Just in, NYC Transit Authority, Port Authority and Federal Government have joined forces to build a new High-Speed Subway Line connecting 161st Steet in the Bronx and Atlanta, GA!!!
It looks like its going to be IRT Redbirds!!!
10/16/99
C'MON CHRIS! You gotta be nuts. It'll take years to build. The Second Avenue subway has priority over that line !!
Bill Newkirk
It'll be an extension of the V train.
This is is 50 Street
The next stop on this L train will be 57 Street.
Hey guys (and gals), guess what? I've finally found a screensaver I can use in perpetuity. It is a picture of an R11 Sea Beach train. What I love about it is that it has a #4 designation instead of an "N". This is significant because it was after 1964 that the Sea Beach changed from a number designation to a letter one. There was an exception, I'm told by LarryRRedbird and others, and that was the R11 that carried the old number designation. The only problem is I don;t know for how long it did. Another great thing about it is the photo was taken on January 24, l970. January 24 is my wife's birthday, and we got married in 1970. Everything checks out perfectly. However, I have to put a damper on my self congratulations for one very simple reason. If it's so perfect for me, why did it take nearly a year before I realized it. Couldn't have anything to do with getting a little old in the tooth? Could it? Well anyway, I have my screensaver with my favorite train, and whenever I log on to chat with you guys I remember I'm Sea Beach Man because the train is staring my right in the face. And what a pretty train it is.
Where can i get one?
Where can i dl it?
Are there other subway related screen savers?
If you guys are really serious, on this website look under trains and stations, and get to the BMT section of old cars. There you will see R4's to the modern cars. Pick one out and hit save as wallpaper on your computer---that's a right click. Then you're home. It really looks good.
How many other Subtalkers out there use Subway or Commuter line pictures as the backround or screensaver on their computers? At work, I have a picture of a BMT Standard at 8th Ave. on the Canarsie line as the backround. Co-workers always ask me about it. At home, it's a picture of an LIRR M-1.
I have R4/R7a 800/1440 at Seashore as my wallpaper.
I have a picture of my home LIRR station, Medford (from Bob Andersen's site).
Let me guess - signed up as an HH, right?
I have, thanks to our great Webmaster, an IRT Lo-V, a Slant40 and an R-38 and yes, they are on the correct pc. (I have 3 PCs- named IRT, BMT and IND.) Our favorite slant person even designed custom icons for me and also gave me a redbird icon to use for the entire network
As a WebTV user I wanted to attach one of the pictures from this website to my e-mails, but since I cannot d/l stuff, I thought the better of it, not wanting to waste Dave's bandwith.
Chris, there are ways to do it. If you have your own website from a company like Angelfire, Geocities, Talk City, Lycos,etc you can go to one of the transload sites and transload it from this to your own account. This way you get your own url instead of Dave's. If you don't have one just open one, even if it is a short page to say hi. The only thing is, to use it as Email background transload it as a gif not a jpg as some of the companies (notoriously lycos) won't let you use one of their jpg images as a WebTv background.
Do you have an example of a transload site?
This is Dekalb Avenue.
This Q train will be running via the BROADWAY EXPRESS with the N.
The next stop will be Canal Street.
A couple of examples are http://transload.starblvd.net and http://domania.net/freeload but you don't need 'em if you got a computer, you can just rightclick and download.
It's faster that downloading and re-uploading.
This is Hunts Point Avenue, change for V and Q local service.
This Q train will be running EXPRESS, for service to local stops, transfer to Q LOCAL service.
The next stop will be 177 Street-Parkchester.
Hey guys---if any of you use the one I use, Jan. 24, 1970---King Highway on the Sea Beach----let me know. I'd love to hear one of my colleagues using the same one I do. Take it from me, it's a real dandy, but, then again, I'm very biased on the subject. Chao.
I use the Cityscape theme from MS-Plus 98, only addition is the subway chime as the program close sound.
This is Old Town Road
The next stop on this V train will be Clove Road-Grasmere.
At least you have it at a good station, not one with numbers or letters, a real name. This is the red line to Hollyweird, next stop Pershing Square
Hollywierd and Pershing Square. You don't really like California, do you? Well I don't particularly like Hawaii since you guys were so stupid as to re-elect that jerk governor of yours. At least I think your state has some great things to recommend it, so think clearly and realize that though Hawaii is picturesque, California is the number one state in the country---bar none. We are the biggest and the greatest. Just ask anyone running for President.
Fred, I lived 30 years in Los Angeles, either on the West Side or the Valley. There is nothing that I miss in Ca. Maybe my friends. They have the rudeist drivers. the worse smog. most crime, it has gotten too big. I am not that happy in Hawaii and I hope to be moving out in 2001 to Northwest Virginia. Yest the scenery is nice here, but a person gets rock crazy. Now we have to contend with 400 money hungry dock workers who want to go on strike because they do not make as much as the counterparts on the West Coast/)Their avg salary is 92K per year) They want a 10 pct raise ovewr the next 5 years, and are holding the entire state hostage with the threat of a strike. I just came back from the market. empty shelves already due to their slowdown. People are buying cases of toilet paper and 100 pound bags of rice. It is funny to look at, but a shame, what 500 people can do. I doubt that the govt will step in, but they should. what is 400 votes in a National election
Bob: Check signals about Virginia. How about southern Orange County? There is no smog, the weather is magnificent, the beaches are beautiful, and, I don;t know if you're single or married, but there are a lot of nice women there and it's also a great place to raise kids. It is also away from the main earthquake faults. Why go to Virginia and freeze your nooncies off, come back to California. As for Hawaii, you may be surprised to hear this from a Republican, but I am a member of the American Federation of Teachers, and a staunch Union man. This drives my Republican friends up a wall, but as you probably have found out I'm a little strange anyway. I would be perturbed if I found myself inthe situation you and your fellow Hawaiians are in right now, but ask yourself this: Could the powers that be afford to pay these workers more? If they can't that;s one thing, but if they can they should.
Next stop" Kings Highway on my Sea Beach. Chao!
Fred, 30 years in So Calif, Southern Orange (WAS THERE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO) is getting too crowded. It is all LA from Ventura to San Bdern, Palmdale to San Clemente. I am married to a Filipina(former Flight Attendent) It just is, that most of my family is still on the East Coast and I am getting to the age(57) where family is important, also my wife s cousin and best friend is in Virginia. No the only place in Ca I would move to with be North of the Bay Area
Sorry to hear that Brighton Beach Bob, but I'm elated that you have a lovely wife and four kids. You sound like a very happy family man and you know what's best for your family. 57 uh? Got you beat there, if you can call it beat. I'll be 59 on Wednesday next, October 27--which I'm told is the anniversary for the opening of the New York Subway System in 1904.
Next stop of the #4 Sea Beach, Stillwell Avenue and Coney Island, the
Coney Island of my dreams and youth.
I do not have any kids, but yes Coney Island of the 50s Steeplechase Park Gen Admission and 12 rides $1.50 The Parachute Jump. The Cyclone and Wonder Wheel(still thefre) The Tornado. Taking the Coney Island Ave Trolley to Brighton Baths and Coney Island, because I was too lazy to climb the stairs at Kings Highway and walk the 7 blocks from East 23 to 16th to catch the train. It was easier to take the bus to C>I> Ave and free transfer. By the way I was there in June, on the Boardwalk just west of Stillwell Ave there is a T Shirt Store that sells Brooklyn and Coney island T Shirts from $7.00 and Up. I bought a Steeplechase Tank Top, a Coney Island and Brooklyn T Shirt. I only wish that Nathans had T Shirts
In case you missed it, if you want to address a message to an individual, use email. This web site is for everyone. Please, no more "To: Username" messages.
-Dave
IF YOU'RE OUT OF NEW YORK YOU'RE OUT OF TOWN!!!!
By the way, neither California nor Hawaii is as beautiful as NYS this time of year with all the fall foliage colors!!!
Yeh right Jeff, but when you are in 1 foot of snow, traffic backed up 20 miles or more on the LIE, LIRR, METRO NORTH and the Subway is running late. I will walk 2 blocks to the beach, watch the sunset over 3 islands, and smile. By the way how is your son doing?
Actually Bob, if I want to go to a Hawaiian beach I can go to the Waikiki webcam at http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Trafficam/waikiki.html which you can find on my live world webcam site at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html
Yeh,Jeff, but it is not the same, no waves, no suntan, Warm Balmy days, also look up Kihei Hi, I do not have the web site anymore, and get a beautiful view that I was talking of from a 10,000 foot volcano. By the way Hawaii did get 4 inches of snow last night. On Mt Kilaua on the Big Island 11,500 feet up
Actually Bob, if I want to go to a Hawaiian beach I
can go to the Waikiki webcam at href="http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Trafficam/waikiki.ht
ml">http://www.eng.hawaii.edu/Trafficam/waikiki.html
which you can find on my live world webcam site
at href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.ht
ml">
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/webcam.html By the way, my son Arthur is doing much better. Thanks for your concern.
Sorry, mistake- the second one is domania.net/freeload
As background, I've got the picture of an R-32 at Dean Street station of the Franklin shuttle from the Line by Line page of this site. Makes it hard to leave my desktop.
Not an M-1!!!
As an LIRR historian couldn't you think of something better?
OK Jeff, I just switched to a picture of the Dashing Dan logo :-)
Hey Bob, its OK for an LIRR historian to use the M-1 as a screensaver as long as he doesn't tell anyone!!! Its like a Harley person using the picture of a brand new Honda Goldwing as a screensaver!! Just kidding!!! I just don't like the M-1/3.
By the way, I went to the Oyster Festival by the Oyster Bay station for the second day in a row. With my wife and 3 yr old son Arthur we parked in Mineola and took the train. Going there we took a bi-level, My son is now running around saying "This station is Sea Cliff, this is the Train to Oyster Bay, the next station is Glen Street". Coming back I was surprised to get a REAL train, a diesel with the old former electric MU's from the 50's. It was surprising because the same train yesterday (the 5:59) was a bi-level. The A/C was not working so we had the storm doors open, the metal platform clanging, the loco's whistle, and the air hissing doors (like the R1-9 & R10) were music to my ears. Just wish they kept the old cushiony reversible seats instead of the M1 seats!! It was so much better than being on a 2 floor M-1 !!!! Boy, am I going to miss them!!
the SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
As wallpaper, I'm using BMT standards at Cortelyou Road, with some snow on the ground.
for those of us who have relatives living in the Brightwater Towers on Surf Ave and E 5th St, check out the station by station of the Brighton Line, There are a couple of photos there with the buildings, the best I think is the standards between Brighton Beach and Ocean Pky with the buildings being built.
Currently, I have a photo taken in July of 1967 at Rockaway Blvd with a Lefferts Blvd-bound A train coming right at you, with the teal-and-white R-10 scheme, with a Manhattan-bound A train on the opposite track, R-4 714 on the end.
My current wallpaper is a relatively new R-44 at Coney Island yards with "B" signs displayed. I've also had the subway map as my wallpaper. I have the doo chime wave file as my sounds for closing a program. It's really neat - especially at the end of the day when i shut down you can hear endless door chimes. It reminds me of an F train at Lex Ave-3rd Ave at the height of the rush hour with the C/R trying to get the doors closed.
Wayne
Fred: The R-11's appearance on the #4 Sea Beach was of short duration probably a week or two which makes your pictures all the more interesting.In the middle of January 1970 the R-11's mixed with R-16 a/o R-27 and R-32 showed up on the #2 (RR). Toward the end of the month two R-1's showed up on both the #4 (N) and #3 (B). This was at a time when the R-11's were the regular equiptment on the #7 assisted by R-27's,32's and 42's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33: Thanks for the blowout info. I'm printing your message and will keep it will my Sea Beach pictures. This way I won't forget. Why only two weeks, and why did they return to the #4 and #3 for the Sea Beach and West End? There must have been some reason.
I keep changing mine every 2 weeks. Right now it is a couple standards being layed up between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway, with the Brightwater Apts on West 5th St where the old Trolley Car/Coney Island garage used to be. My remaining Brooklyn Family still lives in those apts, my last link to the OLD COUNTRY
Bob,
Small World! When my Grandparents moved from 21st and Benson to the Brightwater Towers when they opened in the mid 1960s, I couldn't wait to go visit them. Apartment 22c on the east tower was theirs' until my grandfather passed away 4 years ago, (my grandmother having passed away 11 years earlier)
What a great view I had from the terrace of that apartment! Right below was the double deck W. 8 st. station. I can still hear those wonderful sounds of the R9s on the Culver and Brighton lines. Used to sit out on the terrace at night with a pair of binoculars and watch all the yard movements in Coney Island yard.
Pity, but byt he time they moved into the towers, the D-types and ABs were gone from the Southern Div., although I can still remember an occasional AB passing through in work service.
Great memories!
Mike H
My Aunt and Uncle used to live at 501 A which is the one that is backed up on W 5th. They lived on the 22nd floor, facing east towardBrighton Beach, It had a view of the El, but not of the yards. They both passed away. My cousin lives in the same building but on the 2nd floor overlooking the park
What a coincidence. I have a great-aunt & uncle (my mothers aunt & uncle) in their early 90's in the same building. Although we're not very close I try to visit them when I take the family to the Aquarium. I had 2 other great-aunts in the building who have since passed away.
Which Building there are 2 501 a/B across from the park and 601 a/b that makes 3 of us with relatives there.
501A
That makes 4 of us that have family/friends in 501A, but I just heard from my cousin who still lives there is buying a condo in Jersey. My last link to Brooklyn
I used to live 6 blocks from there on Brighton 6th Street.
--Mark
Do you speak Russian, Yiddish or Farsi? O well was there in June. Back to Kings Highway. The B 68 was running so late, I walked from W 5th to Brighton Beach Station before 3 busses came. To lazy to walk upstairs
I speak neither though I do know "a bissel" yiddish.
The B-68 was always feast or famine.
--Mark
There is a B/W photo in the Triplex car by car section of a Manhattan-bound #4 train at 8th Ave. Not to mention a couple of NX photos in the R-27/30 section.
Steve B 8AVEXP: I have that picture, too. It was taken between 1957 and 1963. 1957 was when the Sea Beach was extended from Times Square to 57th Street, and 1963 was the last year the train carried the #4 insignia.
I thought they extended the West End and Sea Beach to 57th and the Brighton Exp to Astoria, when they opened the connection to the Queens Line in 1955, and ran the Brighton Local to Forest Hills.
The #2 (RR, not to be confused with the RailRoad abbreviation) used Queens Boulevard. The EE (local to Whitehall) replaced it in 1967 and the EE was replaced by an N extension (still express then) in 1976 (or thereabouts). The N lost it's express, except for a brief period in 1990, on December 11, 1988.
This is Grand Street, change for the B, D, J and M trains.
Next stop on this V train will be East Houston Street, change there for the F.
When the BMT interchanged with the IND opened in 1955. The original routing was the Brighton Local, using standards, and they ran only during normal hours Mon-Fri. Used to take this all the time from my Grandmothers and Aunts in Rego Park to Brooklyn. I remember we had to leave before 8.30PM to catch the last thru train
If that's the case, then apparently the Triplexes did start migrating to the West End in 1963, a year before the R-32s began arriving. Either there were enough R-27/30s to cover weekday base service, or BMT standards were sent back to the Sea Beach.
Did the standards go to the Sea Beach? How about R1-9 on Southern Div?
I don't know for sure about the standards; Larry Redbird R33 would have info on that, if anyone does.
The R-1/9s appeared on the Southern Division even before the Chrystie St. connection opened. A group of R-1s were tested on the Sea Beach line in 1931, and others ran on the 4th Ave. local for a few years after the R-10s arrived, to help ease the car shortage on the BMT. If you include the Culver line, D trains ran on it from 1954, when the line was tied into the IND Smith St. line, until the Chrystie St. connection opened in November of 1967.
After Chrystie St., the R-1/9s could be found on the B, D, QB, and QJ lines.
My bet is the:
2 Line at night - been quite notorious for such crimes...ten years ago, it was a stabbing at Borough Hall, and a week or so ago, a shooting/robbery. OK to use if you are South of 96th and west of Borough Hall, IMHO.
Runners-up include (IMHO):
3 Line North of 96th
5 Line in South Bronx
3/4 after Franklin Avenue (remember 4 takes over 3 at night)
A/C in Brooklyn East of Hoyt-Schermerhorn
L in most of its Brooklyn run
Franklin Avenue Shuttle (most parts)
G in most of its Brooklyn run (lots of stations look very, very forbidding)
6 between 125th and Hunts Point Avenue (who in their right minds would be in an industrial area at 11 at night?)
J/Z in most of its run in Brooklyn/Queens
D and 4 Line in most of the Bronx
M in the Brooklyn portion shared by the J/Z
I'd say any line through Harlem (I always go in the motorman's or condutor's car). The 2/5 look ok to me. One place not to go in DC is the green line to Anacostia. It seems every crime related problem happens near there (the most recent was a shooting on the A2 bus).
[My bet is the:
2 Line at night - been quite notorious for such crimes...ten years ago, it was a stabbing at Borough Hall, and a week or so ago, a shooting/robbery. OK to use if you are South of 96th and west of
Borough Hall, IMHO.]
I've haven't heard of the 2 as particularly bad. A couple of crimes, however serious, don't necessarily mean a great deal.
[{Runners-up include (IMHO):
3 Line North of 96th]
I've heard that too.
[5 Line in South Bronx]
I don't think so, see my comments on the 2. The Dyre Avenue route is considered quite safe.
[3/4 after Franklin Avenue (remember 4 takes over 3 at night)
A/C in Brooklyn East of Hoyt-Schermerhorn]
Correct in both cases.
[L in most of its Brooklyn run]
It's okay as far east as Myrtle. Even the other parts aren't as bad as, say, the A, C or 3.
[Franklin Avenue Shuttle (most parts)
G in most of its Brooklyn run (lots of stations look very, very forbidding)]
Also true in both cases. It'll be interesting to see if the "new" Franklin Shuttle will be different.
[6 between 125th and Hunts Point Avenue (who in their right minds would be in an industrial area at 11 at night?)]
I haven't heard about any real dangers on the 6. Keep in mind that criminals aren't likely to be attracted to a truly deserted area - no potential victims.
[J/Z in most of its run in Brooklyn/Queens]
Possibly, it goes through some rough areas, but then again I haven't heard much about it.
[D and 4 Line in most of the Bronx]
Don't know.
[M in the Brooklyn portion shared by the J/Z]
Doubtful - it only shares trackage during the day.
I'd wonder about the safety of the E at night. It's know for attracting a large number of skells, and at least some of them are potentially dangerous.
What's a skell?
A skell is the term (I believe first coined by the transit police) for a homeless person. Usually to qualify as a skell however, you need to be more than homeless. Your cloths have to smell from bodily waste. You have open, oozing lesions. You are infested with lice or fleas. You stink so badly, even the most compassionate don't want to be near you.
And if you get on my train I will throw you off.
[A skell is the term (I believe first coined by the transit police) for a homeless person. Usually to qualify as a skell however, you need to be more than homeless. Your cloths have to smell from bodily waste. You have open, oozing lesions. You are infested with lice or fleas. You stink so badly, even the most compassionate don't want to be near you.]
I was just discussing the skell vs. bum distinction on nyc.transit. The terms may seem similar but are *not* the same. A bum means a harmless, often colorful sort of character who does odd jobs from time to time and isn't necessarily beyond hope of redemption. They're sort of the non-traveling version of the now largely extinct hobo. A skell is a lot worse than a bum. A skell definitely is not colorful, might very well be anything but harmless, and is pretty much beyond hope.
You'd think the M shuttle at night would be very dangerous, but I used it every night after midnight for over a year in 96-7 and never had a single problem, as long as you rode with the conductor in the 3rd car. There is a simple reason for this: Nobody outside of the people who worked at my place of employment ever use this line (I counted exactly 2 people getting on the train from Fresh Pond to Myrtle on one trip).
However, the Myrtle B'way station scared the @#$%& out of me. This was before the new lights were operational and the station was dark, deserted, and I swear every night I waited for a J train I could here the sounds of gunfire in the distance.....yikes.
The M shuttle begins and makes its run in a couple of residential areas of Queens (Ridgewood, which happens to be my old childhood neighborhood [until I moved to Boston at the age of 4]), which is fairly safe.
Once it gets to Wyckoff Ave station and the stations to Myrtle Ave/Broadway station...those neighborhoods give me the creeps (if I was riding it at night).
Nick C
Sad to say, this wouldn't faze me much. I could hear gunfire around me many nights, although here, I avoid the BSS pretty much entirely above above Girard unless headed for Fern Rock or an express station. The El is pretty safe on the western end(though 63rd and Market is a known spot for drugs from time to time).
Ridgewood isn't so great anymore.
The same goes for Glendale and Middle Village.
The E seems to have a bad crowd at night. And what makes it worse is the crawl through Archer avenue extension. If it's new, why is there such a speed restriction there?
Don't consider it THAT new. Trains have been going thru there for almost 11 years. Take your spot at the railfan window, and you will observe that in the Jamaica Center direction the roadbed is dug up between Jamaica/Van Wyck and Supthin Blvd. The roadbed is skeletonized (elevated a few inches and not buried in concrete). This necessitates a slow speed order. They seem to be almost done and ready to pour the concrete any weekend now. Nobody dislikes it as much as us motormen, as it adds time to the run just when it is almost over and takes away minutes from our recovery time in between trips.
Which sub lines would you recommend a tourist avoid?
If you don't act like a tourist, then the same ones as a New Yorker.
When I was up there last time, I got the 'walk before the light changes' and whole street walking thing down. Even had a tourist come up to me asking for directions. My problem is that I don't even know which areas of NYC are dangerous and which ones aren't.
In my view, it isn't the trains that are dangerous, it's the stations. A general rule is the stations in poor neighborhoods are more dangerous than the stations in wealthy or middle income neighborhoods.
Most of the city's poor live in two broad areas. Manhattan north of 110th Street and (on the other side of the river) the Bronx south of Bedford Park Boulevard and west of the Bronx River. The second includes Brooklyn east of Classon Avenue and north of Easten Parkway, then south to Linden Boulevard, and out to Queens.
There are pockets of very nice neighborhoods in these broad areas. And there are pockets of dangerous areas in the rest of the city, such as the drug dealing part of South Jamaica and the housing projects of Coney Island. But in general, those two broad areas are the ones to avoid.
However, much much of the last few weeks I have been walking around those areas with a clipboard, walking down side yards, into back yards, up front stoops, around blocks, etc. (as part of next year's census) without once feeling frightened. And I'm just a overweight nerd in glasses, not a hood packing heat.
In Rudy's NY, you can move around freely during the day as long as you act like you know where you are going. At night, stay in the tourist areas where there are lots of people moving around, or in better-off neighborhoods.
Now Florida, THATs scary. I was at Disney World a couple of months ago, driving my rented economy car between the speeding SUVs. That God I'm home and safe on the subway.
On an added noted, really any line is safe during the daylight hours, but I must say that ANY train line going through ANY area could be a danger if a tourist ACTS or LOOKS like a tourist. Meaning: don't have tons of cameras hanging from around your neck; if you can, try to stay away from load colored clothing (golfer's shirts & Khaki shorts are a no-no); try and pre-plan your trip so you don't end up being the stereotypical "please help me I'm lost" tourist. If you already have some "street smarts" you shouldn't have a problem in any part of the city.
Doug aka BMTman
[In my view, it isn't the trains that are dangerous, it's the stations. A general rule is the stations in poor neighborhoods are more dangerous than the stations in wealthy or middle income neighborhoods.]
And yet, exceptions do occur. The most notorious subway murder of recent years, the Kendra Webdale case, occurred during the day at a station in a safe area on two of the safest subway lines (23rd Street on the N/R).
Getting back to the original question, I'd strongly recommend that tourists not ride the J/Z (not that they'd be likely to anyhow). It's not that the line is so terribly dangerous, it's that looking at the "scenery" from the elevated line gives an extremely bad impression of the city. Even the elevated lines through the Bronx don't look out on such a woebegone landscape. For the same reason, I'd discourage a tourist from taking the LIRR to Atlantic Avenue. One look at the surroundings from the elevated section and the typical tourist would be right back onto the next plane to Atlanta or Kansas City.
I beg to differ regarding the LIRR Atlantic Ave. branch. The "scenery" doesn't include any burn-out buildings or anything -- maybe some poorly kept buildings, but then again, that particular area of Crown Heights/Bed Stuy has some of the more older dwellings anyway. And don't forget, that stretch of Atlantic is semi-industrial which doesn't help the overall look.
The J/Z is a nice ride if you are a tourist who is partial to elevated lines, regardless of the scenery. And any tourist HAS to visit Broadway/East New York to photograph and marvel at the massive trackwork, or they are not serious railfans.
Doug aka BMTman
[I beg to differ regarding the LIRR Atlantic Ave. branch. The "scenery" doesn't include any burn-out buildings or anything -- maybe some poorly kept buildings, but then again, that particular area of
Crown Heights/Bed Stuy has some of the more older dwellings anyway. And don't forget, that stretch of Atlantic is semi-industrial which doesn't help the overall look.]
The more I think about it, the view to the north isn't bad at all. It includes some well-kept townhouse developments and some attractive brownstones. Plus, right at the Nostrand Avenue station, you get to see the idiotic ad for Wacky Marshall's used appliance store :-) About the worst thing visible off to the north is Interfaith Hospital, which has to be the ugliest hospital building in the world ... no, on further thought, it's not as ugly as the Stony Brook University Hospital on Long Island.
Anyway, the view off to the south from the elevated line is a lot worse - too many abandoned factories and weedy vacant lots. It presents a grim picture of economic decline.
You can look at things from several perspectives, but one of my favorite NYC memories is riding the J all the way to 168th on a train of R1-9s. The neighborhood might be a bit run down, but the view from the train is probably no worse than it was then!
As with any el line, pay attention to the street below the el, especially near stations, the businesses down there are the lifeblood of the neighborhood. If they are in bad shape, then the neighborhood is in bad shape. If they are thriving, then so is the neighborhood. This doesn't say whether the neighborhood is safe, but thriving businesses are far more likely when the neighborhood is safe!
This doesn't always apply when the rails are underground! Businesses there don't have the opportunity to advertise to people going by on the train, so the lifeblood of the neighborhood may not be near the subway stop. These are the areas where there is danger because the subway exit may lead to a spot off the beaten path.
Two good rules for riding in NYC are:
1.
Know where you are going, if you look lost then you are an easy mark. The New York street system is fairly easy to understand compared to some others, plan your moves ahead. Keep an eye out for your exits and transfer passageways entering stations on the subway, so you don't have to stop, look and think as you step off the car.
2.
Avoid places (and stations) where there is little activity, but also avoid thick crowds if possible. A thick crowd is where a pickpocket likes to work and can also help conceal a more direct type of crime such as armed robbery or assault, until its too late.
AND DON'T wear a RED SOX cap!
Gerry
Hey, Gerry, that's great advice all around -- including the ball cap :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Actually as a teen one of my favorite things to do was to ride between cars on the Jamaica El. While holding the 2 handles (1 from each car) I loved the 90 degree turns by F.K. Lane H.S., the Bway Junction area, and the Williamsburg. That was the only line which I liked it between cars more than the front window. Of course I took a few detours on the way, such as the BMT Standards on the "LL" and the "Q" cars on the Myrtle.
As a cop in the area I can attest to the fact that the exterior looks of Interfaith is the best thing about the hospital which isn't saying much!!!
Would YOU want to work there??????
At Interfaith??
I certainly wouldn't want to be a patient there!!
"I'd strongly recommend that tourists not ride the J/Z (not that they'd be likely to anyhow). It's not that the line is so terribly dangerous, it's that looking at the "scenery" from the elevated line gives an extremely bad impression of the city"
Really? When I came to NYC this summer, I made sure to ride the J from Broadway ENY to Jamaica and I found the sights to be quite interesting. The railfan sights (sharp turns) were good but I also liked the neighbourhoods. It reminded me of "All in the Family."
As a tourist I felt quite safe on every part of the subway that I encountered - and there were many. Of course I didn't go to New Lots...
The only place the creeped me out a bit was Queensboro Plaza. I got out there on a Sunday to take pics of N and 7 trains from a parking garage. The surroundings were desserted and none too inviting.
In general I felt a lot less confident when I went to Chicago a few years ago. I had a BAD experience on a subway in the South Side. I didn't get the feeling that was uncommon either. I hope things are better there now.
I believe that Peter Rosa was talking about the Broadway part of the line between the Williamsburg Bridge and Eastern Parkway. The rest of the line is fine AFAIK. But I found the Broadway section very enjoyable, having ridden the whole subway, PATH, SIR and Newark Subway.
Well I was there as a tourist in 1994 and made a point of taking the J from ENY to Manhattan. Then the following day, I brought the friend I was travelling with out to show him. So, tourists do ride the J. The scenery below certainly wasn't what he had seen on his bus tour of Manhattan the previous day, but I figured he'd like to see a part of the city the tour buses avoid.
Oh, I HATE the tour busses, I refuse to ride in one in any city I visit (of course, I'm primarily a domestic traveler).
This is Richmond Valley
The next stop on this V train will be Pleasant Plains-Amboy Road
When I was there in June, we spent most of the time stuck
on 3rd Avenue in a tour bus.
I hate being led around when I'm up there because I
know my way around(via streets and subways) while
the "group leaders" do not.
I never go anywhere without having some idea how to get
around. When I went to Boston in June, I spent the 3-4
ride memorizing the T map just so I wouldn't look like a
tourist.
[Well I was there as a tourist in 1994 and made a point of taking the J from ENY to Manhattan. Then the following day, I brought the friend I was travelling with out to show him. So, tourists do ride the J. The scenery below certainly wasn't what he had seen on his bus tour of Manhattan the previous day, but I figured he'd like to see a part of the city the tour buses avoid.]
Was your friend shocked at what he saw?
No, not really. I'd already "briefed" him on the neighbourhood. But I did caution him not to gawk out the window, just casually look in a half-hearted disinterested manner. This was early on a Sunday morning so the train wasn't too crowded. We took the L to ENY first, which is mostly underground until the junction, and he said "When are we going to see something?"!!! The bridge ride back into Manhattan was a treat for him too.
I've only had one problem riding the system(I've been to 167 stations so far-mostly in Manhattan and Brooklyn)-at 21st Street/Queensbridge(B/Q).
A drunken "skell" of sorts was cursing at me and two of my friends when we were waiting for the train at the wrong platform.
I've never felt myself in physical danger(other than being trampled) but Bway/ENY and QBP gaves me a moment of pause. When I rode the Flushing line it was pretty much abandoned after QBP.
When I do take pictures, I'm pretty discreet about it. I'm usually away from people(at the rear of a train) and leave soon after I've taken the picture. I take multiple pitures in stations like 34th Street or Canal, but I wouldn't dare try it in, say, any of the Van Siclen Avenues.
Queensboro Plaza is in something of a General Business/Industrial area and is not a busy place on weekends, its major activity is as a transfer station between the routes which meet there. I haven't been in the IND station downstairs but I would suspect something similar. These are places where the stations are ok, but the surrounding areas might best ben avoided. The streets below the Flushing and Astoria lines further out are lined with businesses and customers at most normal hours, and should be ok even if traffic on the els is light.
[[I'd strongly recommend that tourists not ride the J/Z (not that they'd be likely to anyhow). It's not that the line is so terribly dangerous, it's that looking at the "scenery" from the elevated line gives an extremely bad impression of the city]
[Really? When I came to NYC this summer, I made sure to ride the J from Broadway ENY to Jamaica and I found the sights to be quite interesting. The railfan sights (sharp turns) were good but I
also liked the neighbourhoods. It reminded me of "All in the Family."]
I probably should have been a little more clear in my original posting. Not all of the surrounding neighborhoods are unsightly. Williamsburg, as seen from the bridge descent and in the March Avenue area, is a bustling place and not at all unsightly, and the neighborhoods improve east of Cypress Hills. Even the Broadway-Eastern Parkway to Cypress Hills stretch isn't so bad. But the section between Hewes or Lorimer on the west, and Broadway-Eastern Parkway on the east, is pretty bad. Tourists used to Sunbelt prosperity will get a very poor impression of NYC if they ride that stretch. Which is particularly bad since many people's impression of the city is bad enough to begin with!
Of course, the J/Z is an excellent line from a railfan perspective.
the number 3 line after utica avenue, the l line late at night the A line in brooklyn for one.i rthink the 7 line has the best scenery especially after the hunters point station through queensborough station
On my last subway tour my daughter and I got involved in a fight on the A at Howard Beach having just got off the plane. This has been the only incident in the subway tours to date. I am looking forward to Tour No 5 which is now soon. I have travelled on most parts of the system mostly by myself with no problem. I would agree that some of the stations are a little dim and scarey.
Simon Billis
Swindon UK
Some of you may recall the murder of Brian Watkins, a tourist from Utah, who was stabbed to death Labor Day weekend 1990 at a crowded 7th Avenue/53rd Street, a station in the heart of the midtown tourist area. His family had been on the New York subway many times before, but had the misfortune to run into a bunch of teenage thugs from Flushing (sad to say, my home turf). This murder got a LOT of publicity, was in TIME and NEWSWEEK, and at the time renewed New York's crime-out-of-control reputation. (Although I can't help but feel that a native New Yorker being stabbed to death under such circumstances in an outer-borough station would've gotten relatively no attention!)
Just goes to show you that NO neighborhood is immune to a random, violent attack on any passenger- native or tourist. Another incident along the lines of this could severely damage Rudy's 'credibility'.
As far as 'dangerous' lines go, a lot of tourists take the '2' and '5' to the Bronx Zoo, and if they look out the window, see the vacant lots and gutted tenements that symbolize the South Bronx. Hasn't hurt the tourist trade at the zoo as far as I know. (For that matter, there has been major improvement in the terrain along that line.)
About the stations being dangerous, do you think that it is the location of the stations or the build of the stations that make them dangerous. I mean, a small sized station with a big mezzanine and a lot of space between the entrance and platform would make me much more scared than a station of the same size with no mezannine or a street level mezannine. An example of a good station would be 2ND street on the MFSE. A bad kind would be any of the 2 track statkons on the BSS.
Both the location and the design affect safety. For example, 7th Avenue in Park Slope is in a low-crime neighborhood, but it has a large, little traveled mezzanine, and there have been a couple of off-peak rapes over the past 15 years.
In general, however, little-used stations in poor neighborhoods are the most dangerous. And, of course, usage goes down after midnight.
a footnote: stay in midtown trains after 10pm thats the safest trip try to locate the conductor you will see the person's face looking out of the cab, sit in the car with the person.The lines to advoid especially after dark are the 3 train beyond utica avenue the j line after dark bad area of brooklyn after dark, simular to the 3 line the 2 and 5 line beyond 96 street after say 11pm.The A line again in brooklyn late at night.
The 3 does not run to New Lots at night. The 4 takes over while the 3 sleeps for a few hours..........
3TM
S.4St. Transfer to the G on the lower level. On the street level, the B48 and B60. This is a Manhattan bound H making express stops. The next stop will be Bedford Av. Transfer available to the B24, B61, and the Q59 to Rego Park. Stand clear of the closing doors.....
"The 4 takes over while the 3 sleeps for a few hours.........."
Why can't I get a nap too?!
N Broadway Line
Because you are important line that will probably become more important if you get to go to LGA.......
3TM
Bedford Av. Transfer to the K making local stops to Columbia St/FDR Drive. The B24, B61, and Q59 on the upper level. 72St bound H making express stops. The next express stop will be 2Av, Manhattan. Transfer available to the F across the platform. The J,P,Z on the upper level. The M15 and M21 on the street level. Stand Clear of the closing doors please...........
Well, as a matter of fact, the N ran as a shuttle during late nights between 36th or 59th Sts. and Coney Island for a time during the late 70s and early 80s. At that time, it ran to Continental Ave. during the day.
I would just like to say To Rob about his "Bad" experience on the South Side of Chicago, unless you are African American what were you doing on the Red or Green Line South of The Loop???
I also would have to say the Blue Line Elevated Stations do give a bad impression on the O'hare Branch because they are so old and because of the industrial neighborhood. However the newly renovated station at Grand/Milwaukkee is beautiful and is in a safe area. You wouldn't know that though after just entering the subway from 3 crappy elevated stations. Although Damen has some jewels near it and the mezaanine is neatly decorated.
My point to visistors to Chicago is NEVER ride the Red Line South of Jackson/State unless you are black. Even then you may be haggled by beggers and the homeless. Also avoid the Green Line South of the Loop. The Orand Line is safe because of it goes through the decent South-West Side. The only thing you could possibly want to see on the South Side is Comiskey Park and my advice is take a cab. Also, you must go to a Cubs game on the North Side, only go to a Sox game if you have extra time.
The main point is ask where to go and not go just as I did on this board for my trip to NYC. You could very easily get robbed or killed if you end up in the wrong neighborhood such as Englewood.
Only ride the L to the North Side after Night-fall is my rule in Chicago and it should be all vistors also.
BJ
GOD! You paint such a grim picture of Chicago. I've ridden the whole subway in New York (and PATH, SIR, Newark Subway you know), and I didn't fear a single thing on any part here except for when I was out at Franklin in Newark, because I didn't know what kind of area it might have been.
This is Main Street-Tottenvile
The next stop on this V train will be Arthur Kill Road
This is Arthur Kill Road
The next stop on this V train will be Richmond Valley
The area around the Franklin Avenue is not really bad, although it is not great, and it is probably one of the better areas that the subway goes through.
The Newark Subway goes through much worse areas -- Park Ave, Orange St, Norfolk St, and Warren St. should be avoided as they are in the worser parts of Newark. Even the downtown stations, Washington and Broad Sts. are not very good outside of business hours.
The parts of Newark that should be considered off-limits is anywhere south and east of Market Street in the Downtown area toward the Irvington and East Orange borders. The cities of Irvington and East Orange should be avoided completely -- bad news, those areas.
You see, I didn't know any of this, I only left the train at Franklin. When will the Bloomfield extension open?
GO METS!
This is Huguenot Avenue
The next stop on this V train will be Annadale Road.
"I would just like to say To Rob about his "Bad" experience on the South Side of Chicago, unless you are African American what were you doing on the Red or Green Line South of The Loop???"
As a resident of the City of Chicago I must say that I do not agree with the blanket statement you've made about the Southside 'L' lines.
I've ridden the Dan Ryan many times south of Cermak/Chinatown, during the day, and have not been bothered. Or should I say bothered anymore that on any other line on the system. There are homeless and bums that ride and panhandle on the Brown, Orange, and northside Red lines also.
As for the Green Line south of Roosevelt Road, I've found Sunday morning the best time to ride - anytime prior to Noon. Of course, you will get looks like 'Is he lost?'; however, just blend in and sit in the first car as close to the operator as possible.
I am not African-American, but I do find your blanket statement offensive. There have been times when I've felt a little uneasy on the Brown and Orange lines and these lines do not run in predominantly African-American neighborhoods. This has usually been right after the school students are released. Again, ride the front car as close to the operator as you can during these times - even if it means having to stand.
My rule in the city is that ANYTIME you see two or more kids under twenty together, they are to avoided any all costs. Kids are more apt to start something with you just of the fun of it then adults.
I more than occasionally venture south, alone, to ride the Green Line. As I said before, be aware of who is around you, don't leave the paid area of the 'L', and you shouldn't have any problems.
After dark, I'm afaid to say, I wouldn't venture on most of the system alone.
Jim K.
Chicago
EXCUSE ME FOLKS WHAT ABOUT CHICAGO"S BLUE LINE
from the downtown greyhound station the CLINTON STATION ??
why didnt you cover the blue line subway ??
also what is the most beautiful line to vidieo and take pictures in CHICAGO ???!!!!
The CTA's 'L' system as very diverse. Most of the elevated structure is now over 100 years old. The newer routes, such as the Congress (Blue Line to Forest Park), Dan Ryan (Red Line to 95th) and O'Hare (Blue Line to O'Hare) travel in the classic expressway median right-of-way. The newest, the Orange Line, has most of its right-of-way shared with railroads.
Each line has its own character. Unfortunately, it would be difficult to video out the front window of a CTA train. Most have the full width cabs for OPTO.
After living here for more than three years it is still thrilling to see the Chicago skyline when approaching on trains of the Brown, Green, Orange or Purple lines (these are the lines that use the Loop 'L'). The subway portions of the Blue and Red line don't allow as good a vantage point as they duck underground before you get close enough to downtown.
Jim K.
Chicago
I WOULD ALSO LIKE TO ADD.....
during the 1992 LOS ANGELES rodney king police beating riots etc.
THE LOS ANGELES BLUE LINE RAIL ran perfectly with no interuption in service with people of all backgrounds riding thru the middle of
the worst innsurrection in LOS ANGELES HISTORY !!!
with no transit problems how about that with some of you
afraid to ride the subway thru low income new york
neighborhoods ??????
Jim K,
Thank you for being open minded!
It seems to me that fear of crime on transit lines is a self-fulfilling prophesy. When a system is crowded, you cannot commit a crime unobserved, and a subway provides few avenues of escape. That's why as ridership has gone up in NY, subway crime has gone down.
Geezus, I'm surprised you didn't make any references to Al Capone. And people wonder why Chicago has such an image problem...
I've ridden every L line in the city at all hours of day and night, and so far have never had any problems.
Just as in New York, all it takes is some common sense. Best advice is to ride in the front of the train near the operator's cab, stay in well-lit areas, keep an eye on your surroundings, etc.
Red and Blue lines are generally safe, as they handle the most passengers and there are usually a fair number of people on any given train. Both lines go through some rough areas, but I've ridden through those areas late at night on several occasions and so far I haven't had any trouble.
Brown Line is very safe, as it goes through mostly gentrified yuppie neighborhoods (The Brown Line is in fact informally known as the Cappuccino Trail). Yellow Line is also safe, as it serves mostly park & ride commuters from the north suburbs, and ditto for the Orange Line; it goes through mostly stable blue-collar neighborhoods on the bungalow belt of the Southwest Side. Biggest problem you'll have on the Purple Line is somebody spilling their hot latte on you when the train hits a bump.
Green Line is the one I'd be most cautious on, but even on the south and west sides, for every gang-banger on the L that wants to start trouble, there's usually a half-dozen people who are genuinely decent.
And since the Red and Blue lines are now the only ones that operate 24 hours, being on any of the other lines very late at night is now a moot point.
Grand / Milwaukee station on the Blue Line "beautiful"??? The only thing that makes it different from the rest of the decrepit subway stations is that it has a fresh coat of paint and new signage. You should really do some traveling and raise your standards a bit.
There are plenty of things to see on the South Side: Comiskey Park, the IIT campus, the entire neighborhood of Hyde Park (University of Chicago, Robie House, Museum of Science and Industry and some great restaurants), Jackson Park, and some world-renown blues bars and jazz clubs.
To imply that the North Side is the only "safe" area in Chicago is just plain wrong and misleading. Hyde Park is a beautiful neighborhood, ditto for Beverly, Little Italy, Chatham, Pullman and several other neighborhoods that happen to be located south of Madison Street. Even the gritty, industrial Lake Calumet area has a certain beauty to it. The southwest and northwest sides also have some nice areas, and Wicker Park on the northwest side has an incredible selection of art galleries, bars, dance clubs and restaurants.
Contrary to what a lot of North-Siders believe, Chicago's city limits don't end at the Kennedy Expressway.
"You will never truly love a city till you can love its alleys too." -- Nelson Algren
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Gee, all this talk about riding and not riding certain lines, I'm surprised I survived at all! Back in 1996 I was in Chicago for a couple of days, staying out near O'Hare. I parked at River Road Station and took the Blue Line downtown. Around 11 pm and after a "few" drinks, I ventured onto a subway line to downtown to change for the el to O'Hare. The next thing I remember was a cop waking me up. I stumbled off the train (more asleep than drunk because, I was, after all about to drive), looking for the parking lot only to see signs to different terminals! Finally, I realized I was at O'Hare, returned to the ticket booth, explained to the woman on duty that I'd missed my stop by one and she let me back on! Now that's service. Now I realize this line is probably one of the safer ones at night and more heavily used at that hour than others, but nothing happened to me, except the realization that sometimes our fears can get the better of us.
"My point to visistors to Chicago is NEVER ride the Red Line South of Jackson/State unless you are black. Even then you may be haggled by beggers and the homeless. Also avoid the Green Line South of the Loop. The Orange Line is safe because of it goes through the decent South-West Side. The only thing you could possibly want to see on the South Side is Comiskey Park and my advice is take a cab. Also, you must go to a Cubs game on the North Side, only go to a Sox game if you have extra time."
But the area south of the Loop and north of Cermak or Roosevelt (depending on how far west you go) has really improved in the last 10-15 years. Blocks filled with middle and upper-middle class housing has been built where the old rail yards used to be for Dearborn, Grand Central, and LaSalle Stations. The Printers Row area around Dearborn is all upscale lofts and restaurants in buildings which were empty industrial buildings for years. Chinatown, around Cermak, has always been a destination. The old rule "never go south of Congress" is dead as Caesar and has been for ten years now. Plus with IIT and Comiskey Park at 35th Street, there are plenty of valid reasons to go south of Jackson and State.
If I had to set a dividing line as you did, I'd say don't go south of Chinatown/Cermak on the Red or Roosevelt on the Green at night. To 35th on the Red or Green is OK during the day if you're going to IIT. And going to a Sox game day or night by train is fairly safe as long as you travel with the bulk of the crowds. Don't go south of the Loop? A cab to a Sox game? You must be bloody joking!
"The main point is ask where to go and not go just as I did on this board for my trip to NYC. You could very easily get robbed or killed if you end up in the wrong neighborhood such as Englewood."
No disagreement there. But this is not a significant problem: the bad neighborhoods along the southern Red and Green lines have no attractions that would cause a tourist to get off the train and leave the platform. If someone happened to ride out the southern Red or Green lines in error, they should be OK getting off the train, crossing the platform, and catching the next train north. As many people have pointed out, trouble usually happens in or around stations, outside the fare-paid area, and rarely on the trains. I've taken the Blue through the West Side to Oak Park and I felt fairly safe on the train, and I know people in Oak Park who say the same about the Green.
"Only ride the L to the North Side after Night-fall is my rule in Chicago and it should be all vistors also."
Nightfall? NIGHTFALL? What is this, Peoria? In the winter, night can fall as early as 5:30! The trains on all lines are still filled (and I mean FILLED in the sense of few or no available seats) with people commuting from work until 7 or 8 in the evening. Even after that, until about 11 or midnight, about half, or sometimes more, of the seats are occupied in every car. I've taken the Orange and Blue lines at 10 or 11 at night from Midway to home (Northwest side) and from downtown to home, and the trains were still at least half-full in every car. I felt as safe as I do traveling at the height of rush hour.
The point I'm trying to make is that if you ride South of Jackson on the Red Line you will most likely be with 100% African-Americans. I have no problem with this seeing that I eat at Stake & Egger on Roosevelt and Central and am the only white person in the restuarant. This doesn't bother me, but it does bother many people and they should know this. My uncle grew up on 38th st. near Comiskey Park and was 1 of 2 white people in his graduating class of 800.
I would explore any area of the city by day and most by night. But we are talking about tourists here who we don't want to give the wrong impression to. I do agree about the Orange and Blue Line's at night, I would recommend them to the Airports at all times they run. Any train line is realy safe as long as you sit with the motorman in the front of the train which isn't always possible.
BJ
I tried my best to not respond to your "points" on which lines to ride and avoid in Chicago. But I couldn't help it. I have to let you know that your comments are the most insulting, disgusting, disgraceful, disrespectful and ignorant that I have ever read on this platform.
I have visited Chicago, as well as Philadelphia on several occasions, and have ridden all over those systems day and night and have never experienced a problem. Oh, but I'm African American, so I guess that rules me out.
I wouldn't advise anybody to ride any public transit system late at night, but if you have to do whatever you have to do, then ride it with some common sense. Ride in well populated cars, do not wear nothing of value (gold chains, watches, expensive coats). Do not attract any attention to yourself. Believe me, you'll live.
"The point I'm trying to make is that if you ride South of Jackson on the Red Line you will most likely be with 100% African-Americans. I have no problem with this seeing that I eat at Stake & Egger on Roosevelt and Central and am the only white person in the restuarant. This doesn't bother me, but it does bother many people and they should know this."
I never intended to impugn your motives in giving the advice. Nevertheless, you are factually incorrect, in that there are plenty of non-black passengers on the Red (and the Green/Orange elevated) at least as far as Roosevelt, which is a good mile south of Jackson station. There are several colleges and schools, as well as the upscale Printers Row neighborhood, within a short walk of the Harrison station. Lots of people from all over metro Chicago use Roosevelt to get to and from the Museum Campus. And there are racially-diverse middle-class townhomes and condos due south from the Loop (Dearborn Park, etc.). As you are probably aware, there is a whole subdivision of brand-new townhomes and single-family houses extending south along the west side of State from Roosevelt.
Again, I'm not really disagreeing with your premise as much as with where you have drawn the line. This isn't a hair-splitting position on a minor issue: the redevelopment of the area south of the Loop in the last ten years or so has been nothing short of astounding, and I wouldn't want that redevelopment to die from a thousand paper cuts through perpetuation of outdated fears of that area.
I would first like to apologize and say that now that I think of it you are correct!
Roosevelt/Wabash is used heavily by museum patrons, Soldier Fielders, etc..
As a matter of fact, Mayor Daley lives just south of Roosevelt in a building, I forgot which one, but my Uncle pointed it out.
Anway, push that back to South of Roosevelt. Chinatown is very cool and hopefully in another 10 years it will be redeveloped!
BJ
PS: It is pretty sad, my Uncle lived in Chicago near Comiskey Park for a good 25 years and never rode the L, not once! He worked downtown too! I can't belive how dumb some people are! (Sorry Uncle Jim!)
>>>The point I'm trying to make is that if you ride South of Jackson on the Red Line you will most
likely be with 100% African-Americans. <<<
So?....
I know there are dangerous areas in every big city but your comments seem kind of prejudicial. I may be taking the above quote out of context, but it still seems off to me.
>>>The point I'm trying to make is that if you ride South of Jackson on the Red Line you will most likely be with 100%
African-Americans. <<<
[So?.... I know there are dangerous areas in every big city but your comments seem kind of prejudicial. I may be taking the above quote out of context, but it still seems off to me.]
As I read it, BJ's point was that the racial makeup of the Red Line's ridership might intimidate some people who aren't familiar with the L. That's undoubtedly true, but it doesn't necessarily mean that the line's unsafe.
It is true that some people are intimidated by riding with people poorer than themselves who look different. If that were not the case, no one would be paying for those double decker buses that take you around NYC (does Chicago have them too?). Still, if someone asks which lines are actually unsafe, that is a different question than which lines suburban whites who normally drive perceive to be unsafe.
[It is true that some people are intimidated by riding with people poorer than themselves who look different. If that were not the case, no one would be paying for those double decker buses that take you around NYC]
That's not quite a valid comparison. Those double-decker buses go to popular tourist sites and offer commentaries. Unlike regular buses and the subway, they're really not a form of transportation.
If that were not the case, no one would be paying for those double decker buses that take you around NYC (does Chicago have them too?).
Yeah, we have them here too... Suburbanites pay money to ride these things around and go past Buckingham Fountain, the Sears Tower and Navy Pier. And then they get in their cars and drive back home to Naperville and tell their friends that they visited "the city" for a day. It's like visiting the Statue of Liberty and Times Square and then telling everybody back home that you saw New York.
It's all about keeping their pretty, manicured little universe safe from the gritty messiness of urban reality. And then they act so shocked when their own narrow-mindedness finally catches up with them...
"This is the Utopian Express train to Pleasantville USA. Next stop, Columbine High School. Watch the closing doors..."
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[re Chicago tourist buses]
[It's all about keeping their pretty, manicured little universe safe from the gritty messiness of urban reality. And then they act so
shocked when their own narrow-mindedness finally catches up with them...]
For reasons beyond my comprehension, New York tourist buses commonly travel south on lower Fifth Avenue, and right outside my office windown make right turns onto West 14th Street. It is incomprehensible because 14th Street between Fifth and Sixth avenues is one of the foulest non-ghetto blocks in Manhattan. Despite being surrounded by much nicer areas, this block is a dead loss. A large welfare center, the Waverly "Income Maintenance" Center, is located on the south side of the block. The Center's "customers" constantly mill about on the sidewalk. Almost all of them are what the social work establishments calls "damaged individuals." I'll say. Elsewhere on the block are a couple of abandoned dilapidated buildings, and a number of vacant storefronts that have remained unrented for the five and a half years I've worked in the area. An alternative high school, the High School for Integrated Studies, is located on the block; from what I've seen of its students, they'll soon be joining the bunch milling outside the Waverly Center. Most of the stores that remain open are junk stores of the worst sort. A typical one will have flimsy tables right by the door jumbled high with cheap women's underpants. At the Sixth Avenue end of the block, there's a sort of rehablitation center for the sort of human beings too woebegone even for Waverly (this place might be about to move, however).
Based on all this, I cannot in my wildest dreams imagine why tourist buses dare traverse the block. Most tourists who see the block surely regret their decisions to travel to New York.
The tour buses don't exactly show off the best of Brooklyn either. Then again, the movement of tour buses down residential streets has become a big political issue. Perhaps the buses turn on 14th Street ot stay out of Greenwich Village.
[re tour buses on the vile block of 14th Street between 5th and 6th]
[Then again, the movement of tour buses down residential streets has become a big political issue. Perhaps the buses turn on 14th Street to stay out of Greenwich Village.]
That's probably right. Assuming the buses are headed to the Village, 14th Street might be the only reasonable option. Using 23rd Street would miss some attractive architecture on Fifth Avenue between 23rd and 14th. Seventh Avenue between 23rd and 14th is less interesting. Neighbors surely would object if the buses used 15th or 13th, and in any event the buses would run the risk of being blocked by double-parkers.
I think the idea with the tour buses in Brooklyn is that since they originate from Manhattan (the usual bias against the outer boroughs), they do not venture deep enough to show off the full-range of Brooklyn's diverse neighborhoods.
I believe the farthest south they go is to Grand Army Plaza and The Brooklyn Museum/Botanic Garden (Eastern Parkway). Obviously, the trip is to show off the cultural institutions of the Borough (which includes the Brooklyn Academy of Music as well as the other two locations I mentioned).
If these tours were BASED OUT OF Brooklyn, surely they could go to interesting and historic areas like Bay Ridge, Brighton Beach, Coney Island, Ditmas Park, Floyd Bennett Field, Prospect Park, etc, etc.
Doug aka BMTman
Too bad the trolley tracks are paved over. Montreal's sightseeing cars were WONDERFUL!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The south side Green and Red lines (especially the Red Line) are safe all during the day, and for the most part, at night (although the Green line shuts down).
If you're a railfan, and you're riding the trains for that aspect, you won't have a problem anyway, since you'll probably just cross the platform and get on the train going the other way. Even at Ashland/63 in Englewood, if you're just on the platform, you probably won't have a problem.
-Jake
"I would just like to say To Rob about his "Bad" experience on the South Side of Chicago, unless you are African American what were you doing on the Red or Green Line South of The Loop???"
Funny you should say that... one guy on the train made it perfectly clear to me. I didn't know it would be like that. I figured I ride through sections of NYC and Philly that are completely black and not worry a bit why is Chitown different?
"My point to visistors to Chicago is NEVER ride the Red Line South of Jackson/State unless you are black."
hmmm that's too bad to hear. It's terrible that people can't feel safe on the subway...
This series of posts certainly makes Chitown seem worse than NYC. There is a certain group of people who will not appear on the street north of 96th Street in Manhattan, but they will take the #4 through East Harlem to Yankee Stadium.
What would be the equivalent statements in NYC? Don't take any subway north of 110th Street of East of the East River into Brooklyn after dark?
[This series of posts certainly makes Chitown seem worse than NYC. There is a certain group of people who will not appear on the street north of 96th Street in Manhattan, but they will take the #4
through East Harlem to Yankee Stadium.]
Opinions may differ on this, but race relations in Chicago generally have been worse than they've been in NYC. Chicago neighborhoods have been known for their strict segregation. That may be changing, and indeed may always have been somewhat exaggerated, but the perception lingers. And segregation in this context tends to breed fears.
New York has very few if any completely segregated neighborhoods. Even places like Harlem and Bedford-Stuyvesant probably have a few whites, not to mention Hispanics and Asians. This greater degree of integration probably helps quell Chicago-style fears. Not completely, of course; surely there are many whites, otherwise accustomed to the subway, who wouldn't ride the 3 to New Lots if their lives depended on it. But I do believe that things aren't as tense - or at least there isn't the perception of tension - as they may be in Chicago.
(Many whites would probably not ride the #3 to New Lots).
Hey, I'm not sure about the #3 to New Lots. But some of these posts seem to write off 1/3 of the City of Chicago, the equivalent of all of Brooklyn, though this is contradicted by other posts.
Don't let that one time thing scare you off. I've never had anyone say anything to me, even when I am the only white person in the car.
Yes, people can feel safe on the subway, day or night. It's a misconception.
-Jake
EXCUSE ME! I'm white and have never had a problem on the Dan Ryan (Red) or Green lines. As long as you don't act like too much like a tourist, you'll be fine. Typically, there are a few white people going to the Museum of Science and Industry on the Red or Green Lines (transfer to 55 bus). The Dan Ryan especially is a very safe line day or night. The most unsafe part of the ride will be waiting for a bus outside the station, but that's usually only if it's dark and late at night.
-Jake
My aunt will take the Red Line from the North Side all the way down to 95th St. if she's going to St. Casimir's Cemetary to visit my grandparents' memorial, and she's never had a problem. We did so in 1996, and the ride down there was just fine, including the bus to the cemetary. The through routing of North-South trains over the Dan Ryan worked out real nice in that regard.
I would have to Put the No.4 Line as the Most Dangerous at all hour and Mainly more so from 149 Street to Woodlawn. There is alway a No.4 train crew on the radio to control center about a robbery,Injured Passendgers, and Disorderyly's on trains. 167 Street and Burnside are the worst. The No.2 Line is in second place with all kinds of stuff happining Between 96 Street and E 241 Street. The No.5 is at its worst between E 180 to Dyre Ave. The No.6 at Night and day may have some problems from 96 St to Parkchester.
Surprisingly, the 7 is the worse when it comes to crime, because it runs in gang territory.
Really? I do find the crowd on the 7 to have alot of kids and rude people though. Some of the stations are deserted, especially nights/weekends.
Per Stations Bulletin SD-380-99
The Franklin Shuttle will reopen at 3pm on 10/17/1999. There will be booths at:
Park Place,and Botanic Gardens. The Shuttle level booth at Franklin is permanently closed.
Then how do you enter the Franklin Ave station on the shuttle? Climb down to the IND token booth?
We discussed this already, The new booth for the shuttle and the eastbound C will be on the street level.
Thanks for the info Subway-buff.
If the unspeakable happens and the Mets don't pull out a win tonight (well, I guess I just spoke the unspeakable) I'm going to see if I can't get out there for one of the first rides?
Does anyone have the inside scoop on whether the first Franklin Shuttle will leave from Franklin Avenue or from Prospect Park?
Chuck
Good question. I was wondering the same thing myself.
However, logic dictates that this is the FRANKLIN Shuttle so I would hazard a guess that the initital run will commence from the new terminal at Fulton St. Besides, there really shouldn't be any significant alterations at the Prospect Park side of the line to be of interest for a gala presentation.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I'm going to take a guess.
One logic would say Prospect Park--out and back. But the photo ops would be much better at Franklin Avenue, so I have to vote with you--Franklin Ave, it should be.
10/16/99
I guess this latest opening date supercedes the Monday,October 18 opening at 8AM and ceremony at 10AM? Sounds like musical opening dates again! PAUL MATUS IS RIGHT!! "The suspense is killing me".
Bill Newkirk
I think all of this date/time changing may be due in part to the inclimate weather that is predicted for Sunday evening into Monday morning (possible latest hurricane remnants). I am plannnig on heading out for the Shuttle tomorrow around 2:30pm to see if indeed trains will start to roll.
Doug aka BMTman
Killing you Bill??
I leave for Miami today, will not get to ride the shuttle until next weekend. I'm hopping mad!! (Work trip, and I wasn't scheduled to take it).
Doug, please post what you find in your excellent matter!!!
I hope to get some time for the Miami People Mover and Subway!
Yeah, I already saw the station at Franklin. The booth is on street level, which allows passengers to go either to the C (underground) or the Shuttle (elevated).
It is truly a "mini-Grand Central Station".
Doug aka BMTman
Well, I went down to Franklin Ave. station on the C and went up to street level. There are still construction crews doing cement and grout work. I don't see revenue service beginning for another few days. (Also, the very important elevators were not in service -- they may need more work).
If in fact the gala ceremony is still to commence tomorrow morning at 8am, I would guess that that is just for "show" (i.e, photo ops, ribbon cutting, champagne bottle busting, etc) and not for the actual start of revenue service. I could be wrong, but after taking a look at things from the terminal station I seriously doubt commuters will be using the line tomorrow.
Doug aka BMTman
[station I seriously doubt commuters will be using the line tomorrow]
Commuters don't use this line. I'm taking commuter to mean someone who is going from home to work or back.
I was riding the broadway number train and the 125th elevated station is usually compared to the other elevated stations is there a reason for this?and what does delayed by equipment problems mean thank you i enjoy this website
The train never changes it's altitude. Ths ground falls and the subway, maintaining level, rises to an el. Then, still on the same level, it re-enters the subway, and STILL LEVEL goes through some of the deepest subway tunnel in the city. After passing through the deepest station, the next one is elevated and the train still has hardly changed level.
This is Eighth Avenue, transfer to the Y running express.
The next stop will be West Street.
As Mr. Train says, the train never changes elevation. If you've ever got a few extra minutes, get off of the 1 at 125 and wait for the next train. The view of the change in land elevation from the station platform is pretty neat, and the neighborhood is plenty safe.
Chuck
You can also do this from the street behind either portal, or from the railfan window. The line is straight too.
This is West Street
The next stop on this L train will be 23 Street-Chelsea Piers.
10/16/99
The believe the area is known as Manhattan Valley. And it is!!
Bill Newkirk
"Welcome aboard the newly reopened reconstructed Franklin Avenue Shuttle. We will pause for a moment over the site of the old Dean Street station and honor all two people per day who used this station!!!"
No, all two people per day who PAID to use this station.
This is 42 Street.
The next stop on this L train will be 50 Street.
What you meant to say was to honor the two people per day who were honest enough to pay their fare! Seriously, I heard more people jumped the turnstile than who deposited a token/swiped a MetroCard.
That station never got Metrocard turnstiles. It was closed in 1995. Back then, the distribution of Metrocard stations was like MVMs now (all right, somewhat more).
This is 72 Street, transfer to the V.
The next stop will be 86 Street.
And if you've got time for lunch or supper (or even breakfast, I think) there's an excellent little Mexican restaurant, Mi Mexico, in the shadow of the elevated section on the west side of Broadway near 123rd Street. There's some English on the menu, which if you don't speak Spanish is a good thing, because neither waitress I've seen there (nor any of the other customers) speaks more than the bare minimum of English.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Equipment" means the train cars, so "Delayed by equipment problems" means there's something wrong with the train that keeps it from moving--most likely one of the doors being stuck.
The Broadway Line at this point crosses what is known as "Manhattan Valley." This is a sharp dip in the street surface so it was decided to place the Broadway Line onto an el structure known as the Manhattan Valley Viaduct. This is a hugh steel arch viaduct with a span of 168 feet and a top height of 55 above street level.
Until 1921 125 Street was known as Manhattan Street and LaSalle Street was known as 125 Street. In 1921 the alignment of 125 St was changed west of Amsterdam to reach the 125 Street Pier on the Hudson River which actually is at 129 Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The Broadway Line at this point crosses what is known as "Manhattan Valley." This is a sharp dip in the street surface so it was decided to place the Broadway Line onto an el structure known as the Manhattan Valley Viaduct.]
I had thought that Manhattan Valley meant a section of the Upper West Side, between Columbus Avenue and Central Park West, north of about 96th Street and south of 110th - for the most part, the area through which Manhattan Avenue runs.
I heard that that was called Bloomingdale.
This is Ditmars Boulevard
The next stop on this N train will be Steinway Street
Manhatten Valley is by the 125th St 1/9 Line. It was easier and cheaper to built the el/viaduct back then. It was still farm country in the early 1900 s. At one time it was also called Harlem Valley
While the A between 42 Street and 59th Street and 125th Street and 145th Street use to speed through (does anyone notice?), I remember one time when the number 1 7th Avenue line use to crawl from 122nd Street to 137th Street. Now, it goes top speed through that stretch. One wonders why they can't do that with 23 Street on the A line.
N The Real Broadway Line
The #1 used to crawl though that stretch (surrounding 125th St.) because of noise complaints from people who lived along Broadway. At some point (late seventies?) they decided to put sound-absorbing material along the line to quiet it as much as possible, and if that wasn't enough, tough, the people would have to live with a little noise. It seems to have worked.
That is just so stupid, most of those people were there AFTER the Subway was built. If they were concerned about noise, they shouldn't have moved there. Typical brainless NIMBY.
This is Clove Road-Grasmere
The next stop on this V train will be Vanderbilt Avenue-Clifton
Sounds familiar...
People in new townhouses in Chicago's Lincoln Park neighborhood have suddenly discovered that the L trains on the Red Lines (gasp!) make a lot of noise and are now screaming bloody murder about it.
And don't even get me started on the morons who buy their $500,000 houses in DuPage County and then are shocked to find that O'Hare Airport is in their back yard. They've even gone so far as to sue the City of Chicago to block additional flights and much-needed expansion at O'Hare.
ARRRRGH!
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
The same thing happened when Denver International Airport opened. People as far away as Parker started whining about the noise level from arriving and departing planes.
As far as 23rd St.-8th Ave. is concerned, southbound A trains have always skipped it at full speed. Northbound trains have crept through for as long as I can remember. Even in the late 60s, when the R-10s ruled the roost, they would crawl past that station. With a train of R-1/9s, you were lucky if the bull and pinion gears got up to F# below middle C. It may be that the northbound run from 14th St. is uphill, plus you have the layup track which begins just to the north of the station. Despite that, I have been on exactly two northbound trains in my life which have stopped at that station, a testament to my insistence on taking A trains, and only A trains along 8th Ave.
Just like people who move near the airport, and then complain of the noise
i meant usually high el station sorry.
10/16/99
After returning from a fun filled day at Metro North's Harmon Open House and camera bag bulging with giveouts,I noticed next to Track 36 in Grand Central Terminal,NYCTA diesel #064! Anybody know what it's doing there? It looks cute dwarfed by the GP-7's or 9's and ex-Niagra Junction engines nearby.
Bill Newkirk
The engine in question is an R-47 Diesel Locomotive #0064 which was transfered to Metro-North some years ago and has been very useful moving construction trains around the terminal at night when it was necessary to shut off power to certain tracks during the building of the North End Access.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/16/99
Larry,
In an earlier post,somebody announced Metro North buying some engines for I believe this purpose. Is it safe to say this diesel (#0064) will become surplus? Will it go back to the T.A.?
Bill Newkirk
Bill: I don't know. The two new engines are not expected to arrive until the latter part of 2000.
Larry,RedbirdR33
> Is it safe to say this diesel (#0064) will become surplus?
I don't know, but the E10B (Niagra Junction) are going to go :(
Has anyone ever caught one in action, or do they just sit somewhere in GCT all the time? Actually, I though they had scrapped them already, since I hadn't seen them lately. They sure are neat little motors - anyone know when they were built? They had one opened at the open shops 2 years ago, the cab is much like that of a freight motor a trolley/interurban line would use! Big GE controller. Only major diff is the stomp box for the DC pantograph.
10/16/99
Returning from that open house today,(see my post),The express from Poughkeepsie with the Bombardier cars arrived at GCT. I went to check out the TA diesel and the Genesis engine was roaring like no tomorrow! I though the purpose of the dual mode feature was to silence the engines and let the third rail shoes do their thing. Why is this so? I remember the days before Metro North (Conrail) when the FL-9's (running diesel mode) and other diesels were smoking the place up. Remember, the recent Grand Central Terminal cleaning job. I bet a lot of that dirt and soot was from the diesels.
Bill Newkirk
The diesals usually get turned off South of 125th Street
Sounds like those Genesis engines aren't too reliable on the electrical capability, just like their ancestors, the FL-9's. I remember MANY trips out of GCT with two FL-9's roaring away, and those EMD 567's never sounded so good.
Nor was the tunnel so free of insects/vermin as in the days of FL-9's!! I'd bet the New Haven saved a LOT on fumigation of their coaches thanks to the Park Avenue tunnels and FL-9's.
Actually, the engineer on my tran up to Croton - Harmon was gutsy and tried to get out of GCT under electric - we made it too!!! Interestingly (and not surprising) the P-32 is punchy on electric, but man, it's a slug in diesel mode!!
Anyway, some do, some don't. I've never seen an FL-9 (new or rebuilt) do that trick. I seem to recall reading some Penn Central electric booklet that cautioned engineers to remain in the cab of an FL-9 whenever the third rail power was being restored from a FL-9 induced trip. Oh yes, and after three sucessive 'flashes' (book's words, not mine), to give up and just run diesel.
What's so hard about dual mode anyway? :)
During the early 80's (pre HEP), I noticed that most of the FL9s would be idling in GCT. But I also recall that quite a few made it out of GCT on third rail power. Sitting in a car directly behind the engine, it was easy to hear the engine idling - even as we rolled down the platform. And as the engine began to pull us through the switches, you would still hear it at idle. Usually, the diesel engine would actually cycle up in the Park Avenue tunnels going North through the 80's and they would make the hill coming out of the tunnel in what sounded like run 8 on diesel power.
So I'm guessing that the engineers tended to trust the third rail power only far enough to get them underway in the tunnels and then would shift over to diesel mode for power and speed and reliability.
Going inbound in the mornings, I remember more than a few times that the FL9 was totally shut down as I'd walk past it coming down the platform. I think engineers felt safer shutting them down totally when inbound rather than taking the risk outbound in PM rush hour.
Are you sure it was the engine? The fans in those locos are LOUD! In electric mode, those fans are always running.
-Hank
Is the transit museum in Brooklyn still open?
10/16/99
It hasn't closed yet for the modernization project. As usual,it closes normally on Mondays.
Bill Newkirk
The Franklin Shuttle will be officially openned when Doug,aka BMT Man reports the same on these pages and not a minute before.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Metro-North Railroad has placed an order for two low emision diesel switching locomotives for use in Grand Central Terminal. They will be built by Brookville Mining Equiptment Corporation and should be delivered late in 2000. They will probably replace the three ex-Niagara Junction Electrics (401-403) which are rarely used anymore.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Had a fun but very frustrating day at the Harmon Open House today. Metro North definitely put its best (sparking clean) foot forward to the many (and I mean MANY) who showed up. Special mention must be made as to the many varied locos on display (FL9 2013 was most resplendent in its NYC livery). The only frustrating thing was that I KNEW many of us were there..but had no way of knowing who or where...Anyway someday we will figure out a way to i.d. ourselves...
Also a question for Larry Redbird....waiting for my 1249 back to Beacon ( the only connecting schedule left on a Saturday BTW...) I noticed that MN used a dual mode loco with regular coaches on the connector up from GCT, not any kind of MU..Just curious why if they are going to do that why split the schedule up? It sure makes it inconvienant for the customers to have to change trains for no reason... Or is there some sort of pool schedule or something? Just curious...
Perhaps trains are swapped to fuel the locomotive, to service the toilets and the like. To my knowledge, that kind of thing is not done at GCT or Poughkeepsie, and it would be wasteful and expensive deadheading trains, having excess car mileage and additional crew costs if it were not done that way.
Lou: The reason certain trains run as shuttles between Croton and Poughkeepsie was to a certain extent a shortage of diesel hauled coaches and a cycling of the locomotives through Harmon for fuel. However with the ongoing order of Shoreliner IV equiptment now coming in,a total of eighty cars, certain of the normally MU runs are now covered by diesel trains. This will be reflected in the new timetable to be issued in the end of October whereby four shuttles will be converted to through trains.
I'm glad to hear you had a good time at Croton. The open house has become a very popular event.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/16/99
Lou,
Bill Newkirk was there and I met Bill from Maspeth. Unfortunatly since we use "handles" and our faces don't show on the posts , we are quite anonymous. Next SubTalk field trip,we'll introduce ourselves to each other by "handle" and break the ice.
Mark W. made a point and I agree , Metro North didn't display an 1100 in the shop. They could have , there was room on the same track as the M-4/6's.
Bill Newkirk
I was there for a short time, only 11-2. I was suprised the Fall Foliage train was not pulled by FL9s in Central colors. My whole trip was pulled by the Genesis engines.
Anyone who always wanted to ride the Oyster Bay Line but needs an excuse (I know, true railfans don't need an excuse) the Oyster Festival is today and tomorrow (Sunday) right at the O.B. train station. It is a gigantic street fair with kiddie rides and a boat exhibit by the marina. Loads of food and entertainment too. Me and my 3 yr old son Arthur took a bi-level from Mineola and the train was very crowded after Mineola because of the festival. People must know the parking must be very bad for the festival because alot of local people were using the train. At each station alot of people mostly families with kids got on. Even at Locust Valley (the stop b-4 O.B.) alot of people got on. Most of these people were free as I never saw any conductor the whole ride from Mineola. (Didn't matter to me, I have the NYPD pass and Arthur is free for his age)
I STRONGLY recommend it tomorrow to anyone who's looking for a place to go. And you can even sneak away from the wife and kids and look at the old turntable, it hasn't been used in years.
BTW-the closing ceremonies tomorrow is about 6:00 and there is a 5:59 leaving O.B. which is perfect.
[People must know the parking must be very bad for the festival because alot of local people were using the train. At each station alot of people mostly families with kids got on. Even at Locust Valley (the stop b-4 O.B.) alot of people got on.]
There might even have been a few forlorn souls waiting for the train at Mill Neck :-)
I always wondered how many people have ended up at Locust Valley who intended to go to Locust Manor and vice-versa.
There's two locations with similar names which couldn't possibly be more different.
What are the differences (Yeah, I know LM is in Queens). I'm not familiar with North Nassau.
This is Hazen Street-Rikers Island Causeway
The next and last stop on this N train will be La Guardia Airport.
[What are the differences [between Locust Valley and Locust Manor] (Yeah, I know LM is in Queens). I'm not familiar with North Nassau.]
Locust Valley is, I believe, a wealthy area, while Locust Manor is rather poor.
Even beyond the wealth aspect, just the view from the station platform would be shocking if you'd taken the wrong train. Locust Manor is at the southeast corner of Rochdale Village, one of the biggest housing complexes in the city -- dozens of ten (or thereabouts) story apartment buildings. Locust Valley, on the other hand, is pretty much in the woods -- estates and mansions surround it.
Chuck
No no, Mill neck is REALLY in the woods. There's *nothing* around it. LV at least has a few stores, etc near it.
Nice area to ride through (pedaled my brains out through there as a kid, still blast through there on my current ride). But the rail service to Oyster Bay truely sucks. One train every 2 or so hrs off peak is no fun.
Locuts Valley being confused for Locust Manor? I'm sure it happens. You'd be amazed how many people get on the wrong train. even more fun is when they get on an Amtrak instead of Metro-North or NJT one. Believe me, it happens.
10/17/99
Jeff,
Wasn't the past Oyster Fests held in Theodore Roosevelt Park nearby?
Also , did you see the turntable? I was there last week and it seemed that that part of the yard , undergoing reconstruction , is fenced off?
Bill Newkirk
Bill, I saw what looked like the turntable from the playground side (towards the marina). I can't be 100% certain but it certainly looked like a turntable. Unfortunately the last time I saw it in operation was on a 1rst or 2nd grade field trip to Oyster Bay and since I'm 46 that must have been in '59 or '60!!!
I'm not sure where it was in previous years, this is the 1rst time I've been there.
In Sunday's NY Times there is an article Mayor Against Reopening City Hall Subway Station, a topic which has been frequently discussed on this site.
Has this always very transit-impaired Mayor, who refused to attend the rededication of Grand Central Station (he was off raising funds for himself in another state while one of the most important New York City landmarks basked in well-deserved glory), and who likewise was noticeably absent at the ceremony when federal funds were presented to officials for conversion of the U.S. Post Office to the "new" Pennsylvania Station, ever considered having a bullet and bomb-proof "Popemobile" constructed to allow him (and perhaps his beloved Police Commissioner Safir) speed around town perhaps more safely? And, has anyone ever given consideration to the thought that had Mayor Giuliani permitted construction of the 42nd Street Trolley his world-famous "comb-over" might have been disturbed by a speeding streetcar? In his two-term tenure, has this Mayor come up with even one viable plan or idea for any mass transit improvements? Heaven help transit riders if he is elected Senator.....
Hmm. Just read the article. Let's see... how many people are interested in seeing City Hall Station? How many people are against it? Since we can't move the station, let's move Gulliani to a more "secure" building and let the public enjoy what is rightfuly theirs. Besides, if he's that paranoid about security, City Hall is far from ideal for his office.
OK, having read that the Mayor is against reopening City Hall Station, does that mean that the public cannot remain on a downtown 1 while it does its loop around to the uptown side? I'm coming to New York on Thursday and had that on the list of things to do.
That's 6 and NO. It used to be possible but our honorable mayor put a stop to that.
This is Lexington Avenue, transfer to the V, W, and Z trains.
The next stop on this Q train will be 72 Street, where you can transfer to the V train.
You can view the Loop on weekends.
Well technicly No one is suppose to ride around the City Hall loop. On weekday they make sure of that with 5 Platform Conductors and one TSS discharging Downtown No.6 Trains. But weekend is a Diffrent story. Theres No Platform people discharging trains so then its up to the train Crew. Well last week when I seen 2 people in the 3 car so I quickly tried to get them off the train. Well The Brooklyn Brige Dispatchor told me on the radio that its ok to keep the person on the train because I was only delaying service by chasing them off. So to keep the service moving since they increased the headway they only want us to clean out our operating Positions so the trains leave Brooklyn Bridge on time with no delays. So it looks this looks like a confict in orders. Also Grand Central tower also told some conductors it ok to keep people on. Also almost every Conductor I talked to say every time the Try to clean there train out they get yelled at over the PA AND radio to"TK 1 CLOSE IT DOWN AND MOVE IT OUT"!
Once while waiting for a Bronx bound 6 train it was coming from the loop and ready to stop at Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall and a young female passenger was already on the train, before the doors opened. This was the front car and I guess she had permission from the motorman. This was a weekday,BTW.
Perhaps if I ride the front car and ask the motorman he'll do the same for me, and let me stay on. I'd be daring and stay on the train (in another car) but I'm afraid of being arrested, or worse, being labeled a "threat to public safety". Has anyone here gotten permission for going through the loop? After all it's ridiculous there's such tight security on something that was an original part of NYC's historic subway system.
Sounds as if there's a LOOPhole somewhere. Rim shot!
As for Rudy's stance, what can you say about someone who's afraid of his own shadow? Or the sound of his own farts? I'm surprised he hasn't ordered a Castle Clinton-style wall put up around City Hall.
Well When it comes to The Mayor getting its way or Having on time trains the Local Supervision picks on time trains which I have no problem with. I Welcome all rail fans to view the old City Hall station since its a big part in transit History.
Maybe I can catch the very 6 train you'll be operating next week when I'm in the city. I'll be wearing my Mets jacket, as long as it's not too cold.
The loop for the 1 train is at south ferry, not city hall; and it's still open.
Well, the outer loop is, anyway. They won't let you go around the inner loop on a 5 train.
Well perhaps why Dictator Guiliani gets so many threats is because he does not listen to what most people in NY want.
Because of Mr.Dictator, I find it very confusing to use the Brooklyn Bridge/City Hall station to get to the buses, because of all the blocked off streets,etc.
In a city that is supposed to the capital of the free world, this blockade looks more like it would belong in a communist dictatorship.
Guiliani is NOT good for NYC, he's a corrupt, insane dictator that is a threat to the social interest, and has been very anti-transit.
He blasted Con Ed for the blackouts, but, does not blame the MTA for the flooded subways this past year. Also the blocked streets force alot of traffic through Chinatown, which does not help the situation there. His absence from the GCT project, as well as the people of NYC, show that this mayor is living in his own little bubble, unaware of what is going on around him. Not to mention his downright Communistic ways of dealing with free speech (Brooklyn museum).
It's a strong thing to say, but Mayor Guiliani makes Bill Clinton look like a saint, it is Guiliani that should be tried at an Impeachment trial!!
All right, how was the MTA responsible for heavy rain? Do they somehow will rain into existance? And another thing, if you don't know what communism means, don't use the term at all.
Well Communists and dictatorships do things like intervene with free speech of a museum and block off public areas (such as the original City Hall station).
One could say how was Con Ed responsible for the heat wave? The MTA was not responsible for the heavy rain, but should've been better prepared for it. Guiliani should've at least admitted the MTA should've been better prepared, but then again, it's obvious he aint a fan of mass transit.
Perhaps I'm just mad at the guy because he has blocked the viewing of one of the original (and most classic) subway stations on the IRT, and the blockade of the whole City Hall area has made things a mess there.
If I were to ride an out of service 6 train through the loop I'll be considered a "threat and tresspasser" and would be arrested. The police have real criminals to go after, this aint a dictatorship, and Guiliani should let people see this beautiful station, which in part is paid for by US.
Communist countries may have been known to do that, but that's not what communism is. What Giuliani is doing can be more closely defined as fascism.
BTW, sorry in advance for making my "sig" larger than the message I posted.
This is 116 Street, change for V
The next stop on the Q will be 125 St.
This is 125 Street, change for V, 4, 5 and 6 trains.
The next stop on this Q train will be Third Avenue-138 Street.
This is 3 Avenue-138 Street, change for the V local train.
The next stop on this Q express train will be Hunts Point Avenue
Fascism is definately a better word for some of the ways Guiliani abuses his power.
Lets keep the discussion of communism and fascism to a minimum, shall we? We've been thru this before.
I was on vacation during the heavy Thursday morning rain. If you want to blame anybody, blame Rudy's dept. who cleans out the storm drains. The rain overflowed onto the sidewalks and down into the subway thru the ventilation gratings. There are many on the Eighth Ave. line which was especially hard hit.
DITTO
Oh yes, he is an evil evil man. Mr David (Do-Nothing) Dinkins, on the other hand, was soooooooooo good for this city.
An average of five murders happening each evening was so healthy for the city. It attracted so many tourists and investors to the city.
Having crime sky rocket through the roof and the police stand around watching drug dealers do their selling was so very good for the city.
Now a leader who can have all that going on while in office was a good man. Candidate for sainthood. I mean, who does Giuliani think he is trying to clean the city of all that?
I'll take Dinkens back in a heartbeat!!!!
>He blasted Con Ed for the blackouts, but, does not blame the MTA for
>the flooded subways this past year.
As far as Con Ed goes - they'd LOVE to get rid of all blackouts. Blackouts cost THEM money, after all. but there's a sticky issue of a few things that surfaced this summer:
1) EVERYONE and their uncle NEEDS it to be 50 below in THEIR apartment, and can't spend the extra $$$ on an A/C with an EER better than 10.0 (even though it costs them less overall)
2) NOBODY wants power plants, substations, or transmission lines near them. To make it worse, everyone has a fear of nuclear power (Millstone anyone? Shoreham?).
3) The current system is at capacity.
4) Because of #1, power use isn't likely to drop, because of #2, capacity isn't going to increase.
Therefore, until people budge, sueing, blasting, and publicly tar and feathering Con Ed won't do anything.
It's our own greed and NIMBYism that caused the blackouts. ConEd does NOT wake up on hot days and say "who should we turn off today and what should we tell them caused it?".
And Communist and dictatorship are neither mutually exclusive, nor interchangeable.
All Communists believe in Dictatorship but all dictators are not Communists. Con Ed would be glad to build more capacity into the system but the NIMBYS, who profess to care about their property values, won't let them. I'll laugh at them when they try to sell their overvalued property with poor electrical service.
Same problems on LI. LIPA has announced that it needs to expand it's transmission facilities, and the NIMBY's are trying to stop them with their self-serving attitudes.
The plant by me (Glenwood Landing) has lines going to areas of heavy usage (like the Nassau HUB) and I'm sure those local NIMBY's will be at it again trying to stop a plant/substation expansion.
Perhaps we should just turn power off to all the NIMBY's who opposed the expansions when there's a power shortage.
GREAT IDEA! We need a politician who has the balls (or equivalent) to screw the NIMBYs in every possible way.
This is Prince's Bay-Seguine Avenue
The next stop on this V train will be Huguenot Avenue.
I live within viewing distance of that plant. Heck, I can hear it walking home from Glen Head. I don't know how they'd expand that thing, unless they built new boilers in the current building (Yes, it's been unused for decades - it's the big new looking mess next to it which makes the steam). Or they could knock it down, which would be a shame since it's a nice looking building :)
It used to be coal until they converted to oil - years ago as a cub scout, I got a tour of it (this was before liability lawsuits I guess), the oil they use is nice and thick. BTW - watching the burner in action from two stories up was an amazing (and amazingly HOT) thing. I don't ever think I'll forget seeing the flame swirling around in there.
It never bothered me being there (never even think about it). Glen Cove closed their incinerator the other year, and the site of the long killed Hempstead Harbor one is now a golf course (Which is good because we don't have any golf courses by me ;)
I've seen Shoreham from the outside only :(
I always was in favor of it. LI needs the power, even if we don't, we could see the excess, and if it HAD opened, it would likely have made electricity cheaper, and maybe have pushed the LIRR to electrify the entire system. (or most of it, actually, it IS mostly electric now, save for Port Jeff)
BTW - I think shoreham is/was a GE BWR-6 no clue what the rated output was, but it was a single reactor and I believe single turbine. BWRs are funky because the turbine has to be surrounded by concrete blocks due to radioactive nitrogen (half life of 7 secs). The NRC's web site has information on every functional plant, including reactor drawings, etc. It's like if the MTA had the blueprints to every piece of equipment they owned online (hey, who's their webmaster? ;)
Well the Mayor may not want the station opened for visitors.
But here is an inside scoop. As we speak City Hall Station is being worked on. The two original staircases that were built
in 1902/3 ? have been totally replaced by 2 new concrete
staircases. Infact for the first time since 1945 ?
workers that are actually working on the station enter that station
through City Hall Park. Of the 2 enterances 1 has a concrete slab on top of it and the other has plywood inwhich the station is entered by a wooden ladder. From my conversation with the workers there they say another contractor has the interior to do. From what I have seen the interior mezzanine is in horrible condition. Don't expect it to open sometime soon. Keep you informed.
I LOVE Nuclear power, I hope there's more of it. I also find it laughable that anti-nuclear activists use Three Mile Island as their example. All right, here's a situation that shows how safe nuclear power really is, that even with this biggest nuclear disaster in U.S. history, that little damage was done, this idiots still continue to trot out their weak arguments.
LONG LIVE MILLSTONE
LONG LIVE SHOREHAM
LONG LIVE THREE MILE ISLAND #1
LONG LIVE THE METS (yeah OK, Game 5 just ended)
This is Pleasant Plains-Amboy Road
The next stop on this V train will be Prince's Bay-Seguine Avenue
To each his own, but if they decide to build one in my neighborhood I'd be proud to call myself a NIMBY!!
How much radiation does a plant emit in regular operation. If it isn't much, then I wouldn't mind not being a NIMBY.
This is Richmond Avenue-Eltingville
The next stop on this V will be Giffords Lane-Great Kills
Not much radiation. I believe you recieve more from flying cross country than living next door to one for a year.
From - http://www.nuc.umr.edu/~ans/pages11-20.html#page19
/*
How much radiation do I get from nuclear power plants?
Very little. From all sources, a person in the U.S. receives an average exposure to radiation of about 360 millirems per year. Most of this
comes from the natural radiation in soil, water, rocks, building materials, and food. For example, potassium is a common, naturally
occurring radioactive element found in many foods.
Radiation exposure from all commercial nuclear energy power plants has averaged 0.01 millirem per person annually. Those who live near a
nuclear power plant receive less than 5 millirems per year. The federal limit for people who work in nuclear power plants is a maximum of
5,000 millirems per year. Utilities themselves normally have set their own limits even lower than that.
*/
Another thing - 20 years after three mile island, there has been NO evidence of increased cancer rates around the plant. In fact, a lawsuit over this was recently tossed out of court.
By the way - your cmoke detector isa likely to be radioactive - a small alpha emitter is used to ionize the air in a chamber - smoke particles cause changes in the resistance, which trigger the thing. *very* sensitive, as those who can't cook can tell you ;)
Maybe we can move City Hall to Govs Island, since the Coast Guard moved out, then Rudy would not have to worry about trains, planes or busses. Maybe they will give his own boat to take from the Gracie Man to the Island.
No, he would have to live on the island because g-d forbid people should stand so close to his home. Maybe they could move the mansion to Hoffman or Swinburne Islands (is that in Brooklyn or S.I?) because nobody knows where they are, and they are far from land.
This is Giffords Lane-Great Kills
The next stop on this V train will be Bay Terrace.
You're now in my neighborhood. Have fun!! Brian
Have any suggestions for trains other than the E or V in Staten Island?
This is Bay Terrace
The next stop on this V train will be Guyon Avenue-Oakwood Heights
You're doing just fine. Brian
The article made a mistake, it said that there was a booth in the station for selling tokens, which were only created in 1953. And I always though City Hall was closed in 1945 not 46.
This is 106 Street, change for the V
The next stop on this Q train will be 116 Street.
You're right...the booth wasn't there to sell tokens, it was there to sell tickets (which got chopped by "choppers" and later to make change. The station closed December 31, 1945.
David
[The article made a mistake, it said that there was a booth in the station for selling tokens, which were only created in 1953. And I always though City Hall was closed in 1945 not 46.]
10/17/99
I was at the reopened City Hall Park to check on the restoration. In the area in front of City hall I noticed in the roadway that is in front of City Hall vault lights in the pavement. For those of you who don't know what vault lights are , they aren't electric lights , but really thick glass set in the pavement. The purpose is to let natural daylight filter through. The IRT used this in stations on the original 1904 subway. IT was used in the restoration of the Brooklyn Bridge station (4)-(5)-(6), Check out the fare control area.
The vault lights in the City Hall roadway must be over the old City Hall station. I'll have to check the old photos where the original Kiosk was and where it should be now. A couple of months ago when the road was being dug up , I noticed that particular area "roped off" but didn't know why. If my assumption is correct , the restoration probably called for the return of the vault lights. Unfortunatly , the Kiosk didn't return.Did any of you see this and if not check it out. Report back to SubTalk and let me hear your thoughts on this.
Bill Newkirk
Bill Newkirk
I checked this out before renovation of the park started. Some of the vault lights were broken. You could peer into them and see a small part of the City Hall Loop platform right beneath you.
The stained glass in the station was painted over during WWII.
--Mark
In a perfect world for Rudy and some of his police advisors, not only would the City Hall station remain closed, but the No. 6 train wouldn't even used it to loop back uptown, because obviously some lunatic could leave a briefcase bomb on the train to detinate as it goes through the tunnel...
...as they could on the No. 1 or PATH trains under the World Trade Center or the 4/5/6 under Grand Central. If you want to get really secuity-conscious, shut `em all down.
The mayor and his advisers know they can't do that (or in his own specific concern, re-route uptown 6 trains via the South Ferry loop) because the delays it would create would cause such a public outcry he would lose votes in any future election -- way more than he'll lose in any controversy over elephant dung in a museum.
My feeling is, just hold on for two or three years and, provided the economy doesn't tank and MTA ridership falls, a new Mayor will be at City Hall and the museum plans can go forward.
"My feeling is, just hold on for two or three years and, provided the economy doesn't tank and MTA ridership falls, a new Mayor will be at City Hall and the museum plans can go forward. "
BUT what if you get a less-than competent person in the mayor's office? We've had a few in the past - they shall remain nameless.
A few things will happen. If the quality of life takes a dive and the crime sky rockets again, the economy WILL tank because no investors will want to set up new businesses in such an area. MTA ridership WILL fall because tourists will avoid the city, businesses will flee leaving less people to take the train to get to a job.
And what if you get someone in office who can care less about building a museum? Politicians promise many wonderful things before they are elected. But most times those promises are empty - easily made, easily broken.
I would like to thank all those who came to TMNY for the excursion trip involving SBK 9, IND Flat F-401 and R-16 6398. This was the first time in decades that the Delaware and Ulster trackage has seen passengers and since 1986 that the 6398 has carried them. Although the tallies are not in, the maiden voyage carried near 50 people including those from Subtalk, Railway Preservation Society and those from the bus tour. As the teething pains are ironed out such as the tree down at the "Hudson Terminal", generator problems and the rail conditions that prohibited further operation to route 9W are corrected, perhaps a similar trip will be encouraged by the Spring. Another thanks to the Subtalkers who ventured over on a date where Croton's open house was a viable alternative.
Thanks to everyone who put on this all-day event. The R-16 was the only NYC subway link, but .... In addition to the TMNY portion, we got to ride both tourist RRs running on old Ulster & Delaware trackage (Catskill Mountain Railroad and Delaware & Ulster). In Arkville, two passenger trains passed each other for the first time in close to 50 years. And we got to see not only the virtually-complete Great Gorge U&D station (inside a complete disguise of metal paneling) but also the old NY Central West Shore Line turntable which sits out in the woods waiting for the millennium.
A great day, and I look forward to the next one. It was kinda surreal to ride up that 4% grade in Kingston, NY, looking at a 1979 NYT subway map, though!
Sorry I wasn't able to make this one (my wife had us on a cruise from Atlantic Highlands yesterday looking at lighthouses - gotta humor her interests once in a while) but I'm looking forward to the next opportunity!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A bit of correction...It wasn't the Great Gorge station, it was the Roxbury one. But we still all had fun. Except for me and the two others who headed back to NY via Amtrak and sat through over an hour of delay due to Customs difficulties and a broken locomotive.
David, thanx for the correction ... whoops. Yep, Roxbury not Great Gorge. It was awesome anyway.
It was kinda surreal to ride up that 4% grade in Kingston, NY
Yes; there was quite a bit of grass covering the tracks, and it took away whatever traction the SBK-9 had. Amazing what a little bit of grass can do. We were "highballing" up parts of that grade at less than walking speed, but at least we had forward momentum.
It's always interesting to observe the faces of people looking out of their windows or coming out of their houses to see a train (a subway train, no less) 90 miles from home on trackage not used for passenger revenue service for 50 years!!
The TMNY folks did a great job of getting the train running & organizing the event, and for that I thank them. 6398 is looking good!
--Mark
Well, with the excception of coupler compatability, I think they would've done fine without the flat car in the middle of the train, if not maybe better. Nevertheless, I was impressed. Interior looks ok, but I think a lighter shade of red looks better on the car seats(as some seats did have) than a darker maroon color (which other seats had). When you can't find vinyl seats, do the next best thing!
Just one question for the gentelmen, I wonder if it's possible to undo those incredibly large door pockets?
-Stef
The seats are two different colors because some are in primer (the dark ones) and some are finished. The shiny lighter ones.
The doors. We could have salvaged the swing sashes and door operators from the R-30's when they went, but considering the monumental task we had already undertaken, and that most people remembered the R-16 for it's doors, it was left alone.
The flat car was felt neccesary to prevent diesel exhaust from entering 6398 and choking our first passengers in 13 years.
Perfectly understandable. Thanks again, and I will return again one of these days.
-Stef
It is possible to redo the door system but it is a task that would take valuable time from never ending tasks that pop up with few volunteers. We would have to utilize R-38 operators as the linkage sharing adjacent panels would be required. I read somewhere that the corner door panels were pneumatically operated but really don't want to be bothered as we have plenty of R-44 prototype door motors to replace the existing ones. We are using the brighter red after evaluation and comments from visitors and research. The flooring will be taking time away from any mods as well. Sorry we didn't have enough battery power for you to hear the doorchime.
Do what you can. I'm glad I got see 6398 roll. Best wishes for a successful car restoration.
-Stef
6398 has a doorchime?!?
--Mark
Yeah, ding dong. Stand clear of the closing doors. Strange to hear but fun. Wasn't too hard to put in. The hard part was finding the time.
Before the R-16 charter, we stocked up on the following items in the gift shop so there would be plenty. There are still some left!
The Subway (book by Stan Fischler)
Confessions of a Trolley Dodger (also by Fischler)
New York City Subways 2000 Calendar
You can order them though our electronic gift shop at:
www.icatmall.com/tmny/
Nice job, guys. It was interesting to see the diesel pushing from behind. If you had the H2-MCB adapter on #9, you probably could have left the flat car behind. I'll be back to see 6398 take full power one of these days...
Cheers,
Stef
Indeed that was an interesting trip...especially your use of
the ME42A as an independent brake :) Minor correction though:
the date was 10/16.
10/17/99
Since the Franklin Shuttle received a ground up rebuilding , are MVM's installed in all stations since the whole system is going that route in the future ?
Bill Newkirk
I believe I saw one machine at the Fulton St. side. I would assume that Park Place and Botanic Garden station has them or will get them (didn't notice any MVMs on my unplanned Botanic Garden station trip of last week).
Doug aka BMTman
Franklin Avenue has two. I believe so does Prospect Park (although it might have three or something, the booth blocked my view). I don't know about Park Place or Botanic, but I know they have them, probably two also.
10/18/99
Eugenius,
Yes,Franklin,Park Place and Botanic Garden has MVM's
Bill Newkirk
Nah! Just as they put in a single track on a rebuilt line and platforms that are shorter than in elevated days, they're going low tech for the fare collection, too.
You'll purchase your ticket from the station agent, and the ticket chopper will accept it at the entrance gate.
Hey, I've got my fantasies...
For all the Seach Beach lovers out there, you might be interested to know that at the train show in Plattsburgh NY yesterday, I picked up a blank stock certificate (no name, no number of shares, no issue date, no signatures) for the Sea Beach Railway Company, certificate #280, with that number printed in red. The printer was Corlies, Macy & Co, Inc., 95 and 97 William Street, NY. Even though I've thought about it, I don't think I'll write in my name with a number of shares; I'll most likely just leae it blank and put it in a frame next to my blank BRT certificate.
It's a rather nondescript certificate, standard sized, with a green filigree border around all four sides. In the center of the top border, it reads "United States of America." It has no background picture of a locomotive, streetcar, elevated car, nor is there any printed copyright date. But I doubt very much if is fraudulent.
The shares were offered at $100 each (I guess it would be 'par' nowadays) and the offering was for Capital Stock of $650,000.
The dealer only had one; if he had had more, I would have bought them to offer Subtalkers at cost + a bit of shipping. If I come across more, I'll get them and post a notice about it.
(Our model railroad club was running at Plattsburgh, so it meant I had to miss both York and Railfair in Ottawa, two of my favorite shows. Oh well, can't do much about the calendar.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I've completed the last page of the Malbone Street review. I've also got rapidtransit.net on a shiny new server. You should now be able to bookmark the pages with no problem, and URLs are in plain English--or plain computerish, anyway.
I'll maintain the old server for a month or two, but don't know if I'll update it.
Links: page four of the review or main reviews page.
I'll probably review "722 miles" next. I've also got Stan Fischler's "The Subway" on the agenda. Will take suggestions and invite others to submit their material.
FWIW, this is my first NT site. As someone who used Unix in ye olde days and a former Netware admin, I feel like a traitor. If anyone has any problem with the site, I'd like to hear about 'em. Thanks.
I was just read the service notice and the F are running in two sections, between 179 and Hoyt Schermerhorn, and from Hoyt to CI. Are they running on the G line or are they running on its regular route to Jay St and then reverse moves at Hoyt-Schermerhorn?? I am confused and so is my post..................
3TM
Bway-Myrtle. Transfer available to the J,M, and Z on the upper level. The K across the platform making local stops to Flushing and Graham Aves. On the street level the B40, B46, and B54. Manhattan bound H making express stops. The next expree stops will be S.4St. Transfer available to the G train on the lower level. The B48 and B60 on the street level. Stand Clear of the closing doors.....
i would like to add to the list of the scarist subway stations lol mine are the 177th el staion on the 2 and the 5/ it sits after a curve if you go by the token booth underneath, the station shakes when the train pulls in.The 72nd street station on the 1,2.3, and the 9 very narrow stairway and platforms very crowded at rush hours.The chambeer street station on the j.zand m line, its a huge station and looks like its abandoned and very dirty.
i noticed that every time in pass the 239th street yard, the new r-11o i thinks is always sitting in the yard,will that new train ever go back into service.I remember several years ago i saw it pull out of the 180th station, and i havent seen it since. what train lines will get the new irt cars first? someone told me that the flushing lines was the first to get them i thought it was the 2 line.Thank you
The R-110A has pretty much been relegated to testing R-142 components and it's inlikely that it will run even semi-regularly in revenue service. As for the R-142 and R-142A cars, they will be assigned to the #2 & #5 lines first. The reason is that they will, in this way have access to East 180th St. shop which has been rebuilt with the express purpose of maintaining the R-142s. I think Corona (#7 line) will be the shop least likely to see R-142s since it has the most difficult connection to East 180th St.
when are the new subway cars due on the #2 and #5 line? and which other lines will get new cars?
The first cars are now about 6 months late. Tentative (very tentative) delivery date is December 13th. With 1,040 A division cars being delivered, It's likely that all but the 1 & 7 or 6 & 7 will get new cars.
I want to know what they going to do with R-110 when R-142 delivery 1080 subway cars? Are they going to scarp R-110 after they delivery R-142?
Peace Out
Meaney
You could always place a 5 car set in a Museum with the other 5 to be cannibalized for parts.... I wouldn't mind!
-Stef
I'd bet if it runs anywhere, it would be on the 42nd St. Shuttle, probably divided into two trains on Tracks 1 and 3 (serviced out of Pelham) with the remaining cars cannibalized for parts.
Motion seconded! Special train for charter trips!
--Mark
YEAH, BABY!!!
-Stef
The next inspection trip up to Plattsburgh is scheduled for mid-January, so not before mid February at the earliest.
According to a car equipment (CED) employee in Corona Yard, a new barn will be built in the back of the yard where approx. 12 trains are presently laid up opposite the bus depot. The old barn will be demolished and replaced with lay up tracks. I do not have a timetable on this. Any barn which has R142 cars assigned must have an overhead crane which the old Corona barn does not have because the air conditioning unit will need to be removed from the roof of the cars if the a/c unit needs to be replaced. The new 180 St. barn is so equipped. I wouldn't want new tech cars on the #7 anyway. There WILL be lots of teething problems. I'd rather see the proven R62A there when the redbirds go to the big railroad in the sky. CED management at Corona is trying to figure how to run 11 car R62A there. Here is what they have suggested to senior management: 5 car unit with transverse cabs on the end of each set, 1 car with transverse cabs on each end for the conductors position, followed by another 5 car set. I like this idea. We'll see how it plays out in the upcoming months/years.
That sounds like the most sensible solution, so I'm sure some suit in downtown Brooklyn will come up with some reason not to do it (probably some anal-retensive thing about single car R-62A or something like that)
The dumbest thing they could do is pairing two five-car R-62As and then MUing them to those non-air conditioned R-33s, so I'd expect to see that coming down Roosevelt Ave. in about 18 months or so...
Here is what they have suggested to senior management: 5 car unit with transverse cabs on the end of each set, 1 car with transverse cabs on each end for the conductors position, followed by another 5 car set. I like this idea.
Agreed, but why even bother giving the single unit R-62A transverse cabs? Why not use the transverse cab in the 5-car unit as the conductor's position? Wouldn't that save some dough??
--Mark
Because, for some strange reason, everybody here insists that the 7 runs with eleven cars! The only reason it does that now is because it can. There is nothing written in stone that says the 7 must run with eleven cars, so when the R62s finally make it to Flushing, expect to see 10 car trains.
Except that on one of the most crowded lines in the city, you'd be losing about 40 cars of space during rush hour, meaning you'd have to squeeze in an addition four trains onto the current timetable to make up the difference, or deal with even more crowding on the line.
If they would, then they'd probably do it now. The eleventh car is the un-air conditioned R-33 single that I so despise.
This is Jefferson Avenue
The next stop on this V train will be Sea View Avenue-Dongan Hills
i thought they ran 11 car trains on the number 7 was that way back when the ta extended platforms for the 1964-65 worlds fair last summer they were running 10 car trains
Well, OK, but even with 11 cars, if one end of each 5 car unit already has a transverse cab that a conductor could use, what is the point of converting single cars to have transverse cabs on both sides? Just leave them alone and save some money. If you run 10 cars, the conductor would use one of these positions anyway.
--Mark
And if the single unit were placed on one of the ends of the train, you'd at least have one railfan window.
At the Delancy St. station on the J line in Manhattan, there appears to be an abandoned station opposite the station, was it an additional platform, or a terminal at one time?
Trolley terminal. There's some additional information elsewhere on this site about its history, also a discussion a couple of months back on SubTalk.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank you Mr. Mouse. BTW, mazol tov on your new grandbaby.
There seems to be an abandoned track adjacent to the current Queens bound track at the very front of the Essex St. station. I had never noticed this track before the Willy B closing. Anyone know what it is?
Chris: IF I assume that you are talking about the west or sounthbound end of the station its the inbound track from Bway-Lafayette. (BJ1)
Larry,RedbirdR33
No, no....I' well aware of where and what that track is. I'm talking about the other end of Essex St. right before that S curve to the bridge. Next to the Queens bound track there is another track which I can't remember being there before the Willy B was closed.
Remnants of the trolley terminal. I used to notice it before the bridge closure.
A "Unification Tour" last year visited this station & the BRT Trolley terminal. Still there are the O/H wire & tracks in floor.
Mr t__:^)
It is amazing that this B&QT terminal lasted this long nearly intact after 50 years, until the WB was rebuilt. I havent seen it since the bridge reopened, but I know the reconstruction removed the spans going into the terminal. You used to be able to see the old trolley tracks go out on the bridge about four spans until last year.
After a span section was pulled out to convert the trolley's row from under Delancy to street level auto use, there was no practical way to really get the big stuff out, except piece by piece and in one's lunchbox. I guess if the TA really wanted to, they could have really cleared it out long ago. But why should they, if its not in the way.
Same "no reason to" reasoning that left the LIRR/BRT connection el structure up on Atlantic and 5th Aves. many (seven!) decades after the service ended.
10/20/99
I remember seeing a photo recently of a farewell to streetcar service on the Willy B. A PCC was chartered and a photo stop was at that underground terminal. What made it unique was PCC's didn't serve this route and underground terminal.
Bill Newkirk
Bill...I've also seen the photo of the PCC at the underground Delancey St. Terminal. It even had a rollsign reading of "Willsburg. Bridge Plaza". Did the PCCs, in fact, have this listing on their regular rollsigns or was this made-up for the fantrip?
Carl M.
In those days the PCC s ran out of the terminal near Prospect Park, I think 15th St and 8th Ave. They ran on the McDonald Ave, Coney Island Ave, Smith 9th St and Vanderbilt Ave Lines think they were th B-50, B-68, B-67. At one time they were all connected from 4 lines to 2. It must have been a charter because I have that photo in a book also. Church Ave got the PCC after all the other lines went bus in 51, except for the 50 and 68
just came over the husdon co. ext. of the njt. in port newark there was 5 new lirr cars just off the boat.
on boarding on track 4 path expess to canford. Stops at hillside, townley, rosele park and canford. NO NEWARK STOP!!
Even if the Mets lose the next in Atlanta, they've redeemed themselves.
I hope Ventura remembers to touch those bases, or the score will be 6-3. Waytago!!
YEAH!!!!!
-Stef
It didn't matter to him on the post game show. The final ruling is 4-3. WAY TO GO!
I came down for the entire weekend series!!! WOW!!! what a trip!!!
Last night's game was one for the ages...
LETS GO METS & BOY THAT WAS CLOSE GAME I EVER SEEN. WELL THIS TUESDAY I HOPE THEY WILL WIN & IF THEY WIN ON WEDSENDAY NIGHT THEY WILL BECOME THE FIRST TIME EVER TO COME BACK FROM 0-3. THANK GOD THEY WON. YOU GOTTA BELIEVE THE METS.
PEACE OUT
MEANEY
I was at the game with my girlfriend and my sister. My sister left about 7:00. We stayed till the end and then some. Best game of the year!!! Brian
As a TV reporter said this morning: "The Mets have the Braves right were they want them--with the Met's back against the wall. They seem to play best that way."
That sounds like something Jim Bouton would have said. I never thought they would be able to top the excitement of both the games 6 of 1986, (the 16 inning win in Houston and the Bill Buckner Show), but last night they topped it.
Have you heard John Rocker? The guy is off his rocker!!!
Yeh, but can they take two from the Braves in Atlanta? Did the Red Sox ever play the Braves in a World Series, even back to the Boston Braves/Bees Days?
History says the Mets won't do it. My gut says the Mets won't do it.
But I can dream...
No, the Braves and the BoSox are like ships that passed in the night... no series matchup.
Well, one element of a Subway Series is in place, now that the Yankees have wrapped up the American League pennant. As for the Mets, Yogi said it best: it ain't over till it's over.
"Hello, Mr Seelig, this is Robin Ventura, New York M... thank you for the kind words, sir ... yes, it was thrilling to hit that home run ... anyway, about that home run ... wha? Oh - the family is fine .. anyway, about that home run, sir, well, I never did reach second, so if I may, when I get up to bat on Tuesday, can I touch second, third and run home, and then allow those 3 runs to count in our next game against the Braves? If you do, I assure you attendence of 3 million at Shea in 2000 ... what's that? You have to discuss it with the league? Oh, go right ahead, but can I ask for an expedited decision, the game is Tuesday you know ... Mets fans would be very appreciative, I'm sure... thanks, Mr Seelig ... goodbye."
(And now for a word from MTA ... getting you there ....)
--Mark
Hey Mark, dream on. Don't expect anything from Selig, he's a dork. Did you hear he's looking into the hiring of Phil Garner by Detroit after his stupid daughter fired Garner. It's none of Buddy's business who Detroit hires. He should stick to running the Majors and helping his daughter under the table to try and fix that digraceful team called the Brewers.
How about that grand slam in the 15th! Robin Ventura is the hero!
Last time I heard, the final was 4-3 it was a single because he didn't touched all the bases. Yes, I predicted the Braves in 4. If the Mets win 2 in Atlanta, which seriously doubt, but hope I'm wrong about, I'll have to munch on my brake handle!
Don't worry Bill, if they do send some of it to me in California. I'll help you eat it----GLADLY!!!!!!
They has been some discussion lately about the High-Speed Line in Philly. I wanted to check a source before I commented. "High Speed Line" in Philadelphia nomenclature was a Philadelphia Rapid Transit (PRT) term for any grade separated transit line,ergo it was applied to the Market-Frankford and Broad Street Lines and by extension to the Bridge High Speed Line which was owned by the Delaware River Joint Commission but operated by PRT. SEPTA continued this practice as did PATCO. SEPTA did apply this term to the Norristown Line but lately has taken to calling Norristown a "Suburban Rail Line."
I might mention that the term "High Speed" refers only to the grade separation and not the actual speed observed by the trains. (This would let the R-68's off the hook)
Larry,RedbirdR33
I commuted on the Hudson Line for ten years between GCT and Beacon and breathed in so much diesel fumes from the unrebuilt FL-9's that I feel like a part owner in General Motors. However I must say that the rebuilt FL-9AC's (Starships) and the P-32AC-DM's (Genesis) run very well on electric and that it is rare,but not unusual for them to run on diesel all the way to GCT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry - please be nice to my FL9s - yeah the unrebuilt ones. Think how fortunate you were that they were FL9s and not Alco C420s or RS3s.
I can't imagine how any engineer could even see down the tunnel if Alco power had been able to fit into teh Park Avenue tunnels.
Heheheh, you run 'em short hood first....and KEEP MOVING and you stay ahead of the smoke!!
The mention of C-420's and RS-3's reminds me of a photo a friend took years ago at Mineola -- I still remember, it was LIRR #215 that was the "culprit" -- but the friend was at the third crossing east of the station with a very strong telephoto lens, and ol' 215 sent about 100' of smoke straight up into the air in that photo. It was impressive! My friend said that after it did that, it just sat there and quit, something in the turbo must have gone kabuki!
"Kabuki"? Those of us who aren't as well versed in the technical side as others would appreciate it if everyone tried to avoid these highly specialized, technical terms.
Didn't they once fit a PA into that siding under the Waldoff Astoria when it was a new thing Alco was showing off to everyone?
The RS-3s can't fit into GCT?
Actually, how much tighter than Penn is GCT? They seem to get the new haven cars in there fine...
When I saw a heading about Genesis and Starships, I didn't know at first whether I was at SubTalk or a rock-music board. (^:
Reminds me of the old joke: Woman calls the local bank to make an appointment to bring in a bond, which is about to mature. When the bank clerk asks "For redemption or conversion?" she replies "Is this a bank or a church?!"
Yuk-yuk-yuk. We'll hit the rim shot button anyway.
When did this RR cease existence? When did it's waterfront terminal close? When did it's lines get connected to Newark and Madison Square Garbage? Where did it's lines extend?
And: I want to know all there is to know about the West Shore and the Erie Lackawanna lines and the separate Erie and Lackawanna.
This is Annadale Road
The next stop on this V train will be Richmond Avenue-Eltingville
CNJ/EL/ Lehigh Valley, Reading, Lehigh & Hudson, all these lines were merged into Conrail, when it took over the old Penn Central
I can answer some of your questions:
Jersey Central RR (CNJ) died in 1976, when it was swallowed into Conrail.
The old waterfront terminal in Jersey City and the connecting ferry to Manhattan closed in April 1967, when CNJ trains were rerouted into Newark Penn Station and PATH trains assumed the trans-Hudson role the ferries formerly covered. The line extends west to Raritan, NJ; today, NJ Transit calls it the Raritan Valley line. Ever since 1967, the trains have terminated in Newark because they are all diesel powered; NY bound passengers must transfer to PATH or electric powered trains from the NE corridor to reach Manhattan.
Today, due to the waterfront connection, some Raritan Valley trains continue east to Hoboken Terminal, something the old CNJ trains never could do.
And what bus company had a major interest in CNJ ... it wasn't from NJ
Mr t__:^)
In case anyone was interested: Murry M. Salzberg, also associated with Steinway Transit & Queens Transit, was Chairman & key participant in CNJ reorganization. Also helped in creation of Central Jersey Industries.
Mr t__:^)
Wasn't it May 1. 1968? Anyway, it was called the Aldene plan and connected the CNJ passenger service on its main line to the Lehigh Valley tracks at Aldene Junction in Cranford. A new station was built for the service in Roselle Park. The route continues from there into Union and along US 22 into Newark where it connects with the NEC tracks. For a few years there existed a shuttle service from West Eighth Street, Bayonne across Newark Bay on the old main line portion through Elizabeth, Roselle/Roselle Park, and into Cranford where a transfer was available to the new main line.
Where did the mainline extend past High Bridge? Any branches?
The CNJ main continued on through Easton, Allentown, Bethlehem, up along the Lehigh River, through Northhampton, Slateford and Lehighton, through the Lehigh River gorge, over the mountain at Solomon Gap and into Scranton/Wilkes-Berre. They stopped passenger service past High Bridge in 1962 and all service in PA around 1967. There was a branch from High Bridge to like Dover or Netcong and we must not forget the Southern Division from Elizabethport, through South Amboy, Red Bank, Freehold, Lakehurst, Chatsworth, Winslow, Minolta, Vineland and terminating in Bridgeton, NJ.
There was also the "Queen of the Valley" to Harrisburg. The CNJ station in Jim Thorpe is being used as the depot for Rail Tours, Inc. and their Sunday tourist trips.
"There was also the "Queen of the Valley" to Harrisburg."
The 'Queen of the Valley' was a joint CNJ-RDG (Reading Lines) operation; however, CNJ & RDG were connected for many years. The B&O had controlling interest in the RDG and the RDG had controlling interest in the CNJ.
That way, the B&O could get its 'varnish' or passenger trains into New York (Jersey City and ferry ride). Those trains of the day which all expired on April 27, 1958. Those left at the end were the 'Royal Blue' (JC - Washington, DC), 'The Capitol' (JC - Chicago) and 'The National Limited' (JC - St. Louis). These are just a few of the fine B&O trains that gave meager competition to the mighty PRR - who by way of direct mid-town NYC terminal and electrified mainline garnered the bulk of the travelers.
I remember seeing a B&O passenger train paused at Wayne Junction in Philadelphia - a regular stop for B&O trains. Wayne Junction had a large waiting room and ticket office, Red Cap service and a baggage elevator in those days. I can't imagine that today as the neighborhood has seen better days. However, being only five or six I don't remember what train it was. I did see it from the open window of a RDG MU train heading in the opposite direction towards Doylestown. We were returning from visiting my aunt and uncle in the city.
Jim K.
Chicago
I remember way back in the 50s, that the B & O had free connecting busses that met the trains in Jersey City, and took thge pax to 3 or 4 places in Manhatten and one in Brooklyn. They went via the CNJ Ferries. It was easy to get a free ride, because they never asked to see a tricket stub. In fact the same thing with the old ferries coming to Manhatten, they never asked to see a train ticket. Those were the days
I just wanted to mention to some of my fellow SubTalkers that I went to my second ERA meeting for this year last Friday.
It was great meeting up with "Far Rock A Train" and Bill Newkirk for the first time. And it was good to see Todd again -- having met him at the Willy B. trip. And I gotta thank Mark W. (shout out) for showing me his set of those way cooool MTH R-42 subway cars (in original TA colors).
The slide show presentation was about the Philly trolley system (with some subway and buses). Although I am more partial to NY and Boston systems, it was still an interesting and educational show.
The other highlight for me was a vendor who had a book (more like a large booklet) by William W. Fausser about the rich history of the Brooklyn and Rockaway Beach Railroad (The Canarsie Line). I had heard much about this publication, and I had been trying to find one for a couple of years. It looked as though it was "self published" (type-written pages), but had a wealth of info and many great photos on one of my favorite lines.
Since I enjoyed this last meeting, I will attempt to attend more of those in the future.
Doug aka BMTman
Comparing a 1940s NY Central Hudson Division time table to the current line, a number of stops seem to have gone missing. From GCT to Peekskill, they are:
- The Bronx (138th St.) and High Bridge, both between 125th & Morris Heights
- Mt. St. Vincent, between Riverdale & Yonkers
- Harmon as a separate stop before Croton-on-Hudson
- Oscawana, between Croton & Crugers
- Crugers and Montrose (this one I know -- replaced a couple of years ago by Cortlandt, a park-and-ride stop not near anyplace walkable)
Can anyone enlighten me as to the fate of these stops? Did they have station buildings? When were they eliminated?
What I'd REALLY love is a historic map of all NYC-region subways AND commuter railroads, similar to one I have of the London Underground: All lines and stops, past and present, with dates of opening, closing and copious notes. It'd include NJ Transit and all its predecessors, the West Shore Line, Metro North's 3 divisions (I tend to count Spring Valley & Port Jervis as NJ Transit, sorry), the Putnam Division, the LIRR ... and I'm sure there's lots more.
But I don't think such a thing exists, at least not yet. John Tauranac did a wonderful "Tri-State Traveler Railroad Map" in 1990 that brought together all the region's rail lines most of a decade before the MTA's "The Map", which still ignores all but 2 NJ Transit lines (as above). Wonder if he'd be interested?
Oscawanna did have a station building on the east side of the tracks. There's a portion of it visible in a photograph on p. 50 of George H. Drury's New York Central in the Hudson Valley. No mention in the (minimal) text of when the station was closed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Should have mentioned the photo dates from 1952. The train is a freight on the move, so that doesn't help answer the question about closing date.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hudson Line Abandoned Stations:
138 Street - June 29,1973
High Bridge - June 2,1975
Croton North Station - October 27,1984
Oscawana - June 29,1973
Crugers - June 29,1996
Montrose - June 29,1996
Chelsea - June 29,1973
Dutchess Junction - @1951
Camelot @ 1951
There never was a "Harmon" Station as separate from Croton-Harmon.
In New York Central days the Croton-Harmon Station was known as the "Harmon" Station and the Croton North Station was known as the "Croton" since at that time Croton North and not Croton-Harmon was the north end of electricfied MU service from GCT, even though the through trains to point north changed power at "Harmon."
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Manitou and New Hamburg Stations were closed on June 29,1973 and re-opened on October 25,1981.
Larry....Where exactly were the Camelot and Dutchess Jct. stations located on the Hudson Line?
Carl M.
Camelot was at MP 67.5 between New Hamburg and Poughkeepsie.
Dutchess Junction was at MP 56.5 between Breackneck Ridge and Beacon.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry....There seems to be the remnants of a concrete platform just below where the Beacon-Hopewell Jct. line flies over the Hudson Line. Beacon is at MP 59 and this location would appear to be at or near MP 56.5...and it is a junction.
Carl M.
That would be the remains of the former Dutchess Junction Station. When the Dutchess and Columbia RR began in 1871 they operated from the Dutchess Junction Station which is on the south side of Fishkill Creek. They ran along the east bank of the creek for about a quarter of a mile then crossed the creek to the west bank where the right of way continues today. Sometime around 1881 the New York & New England built a short 1.8 mile of track from along the west bank of the creek crossed over the Hudson Line and looped north into the freight yard and Beacon Station. THe orignal ROW from the Jct and the bridge were removed sometime about the 1930's according to an neighbor who remembers seeing it in operation. The station continued to carry the name Dutchess Junction and is also the name used by a small community in the area.
Larry,RedbirdR33
wasn t there a short branch that ran to East Fishkill
The line from Beacon to Fishkill at that time (1972) was known as the Beacon Secondary Track,it connected at Hopewell Junction with the Poughkeepsie Secondary to form the Maybrook Branch which ran over to Connecticut. Today this is the Beacon Line of Metro-North, but no passenger service has operated over it in at least 50 years. (excluding fantrips)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Since there is no passenger service, what is it used for? A shortcut from the Harlem to the Hudson? Any freight companies use it?
[Since there is no passenger service, what is it [Beacon Line] used for? A shortcut from the Harlem to the Hudson? Any freight companies use it?]
As far as I know, Metro North is merely "warehousing" the Beacon Line. In order to keep its options open, in case passenger service does become possible at some future point, Metro North opted to buy the line and protect the right of way from encroachments. Had it done nothing, the r-o-w quite likely would have been built upon and future service rendered impossible.
I don't believe there is any freight service on the line. It might become useful for moving stranded equipment if there were a bridge collapse or other long-term interruption on the Harlem or Hudson lines.
Back in the late 80's and early 90's Conrail used this line for the Cedar Hill freights to reach Ct. I can remember seeing freights waiting for clearance to enter the Hudson Div. heading north, even caught one splitting its train (power included) into the train heading for the Beacon secondary and the other heading for Oak Point. As far as I know now I would have to agree that there is no freight service any longer.
[Hudson Line Abandoned Stations:
138 Street - June 29,1973
Oscawana - June 29,1973
Crugers - June 29,1996
Montrose - June 29,1996
Chelsea - June 29,1973]
Hmmm. June 29th's not such a nice day :-)
Peter: This is great, many thanks. Do you know of the reasoning (official or otherwise) behind each of the closings? For instance, I assume the Harmon Yard was extended north and came too close to the Croton (North) station? (And was that station the abandoned beige building still located to the west of the tracks?)
New Hamburg: Curious that it was closed then reopened -- it's now clearly commuter territory (esp. aboard the 5:09 pm super-express) but perhaps was thought to be too far north during the last days of Conrail/early days of Metro North?
Dutchess Junction: I'd have assumed this was closed when the Putnam line was abandoned, but you give 1951 as closing date and the Putnam line stayed operating til 1958/1959.
What was the rationalization in June 1973 that led to the closings of 138th St, Oscawana and Chelsea?
AND ... are there any traces of any station buildings left? I know Crugers and Montrose had none, but curious about other locations.
Dutchess Junction was the point where at one time, the Beacon branch of the Newburgh, Dutchess and Connecticut, later central New England then New haven Railroad. According to a book I have on the CNE, the stationbuilding was a covered type, not unlike a covered bridge. The view I have is a drawing in 1873. I am not sure when the station was torn down but it was well befor ethe 50's I believe. My father and I have looked for any remains of the station but found nothing but a wide spot in the R-O-W.
As for Oscawanna all that was there was a footbridge across the tracks and a small waiting shed. That was my Dad's hangout back in the Central days
The Croton North Station was actually where electric service began, not at Harmon like today. What is now the freight yard and dead tracks was once where the electric MU's were stored. The bridge south of Harmon station was used for steam/deseil power to reach the westbound station platforms to avoid having the power cross over the four main tracks.
Hope this helps
Steve
As I noted in an earlier post, Oscawanna did have a station building of some sort on the east side of the tracks. Based on the portion of it visible in a 1952 photograph on p. 50 of George H. Drury's New York Central in the Hudson Valley, it was definately more than a shed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The reason for the closing was due to low ridership and Penn Central's financial condition.
Croton-Harmon Station is basically in the same location except that the southbound platform used to be north of the Croton Point Avenue overpass and the northbound platform was south of it. They were separated by a cross track called "Ladder E" which allowed direct access to the yard.
There are two, two story buildings west of the tracks. The one closest to the above named overpass with the bow windows is the former "HM" Tower of which I used to be a Director. The other building is the yard office.
What remains at Camelot and Dutchess Jct Stations are very short low level concrete paltforms and the supports for a pedestrian overpass.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I believe the closings in 1973 were because of low ridership and also in preparation for high platform cars, similiar to the situation when the LIRR cut stations in 1998. Harlem Division stations were also closed in '73, including Morrisania and 183rd Street.
So they started putting in high platforms in 1973? Hmmmmmm. Wonder what determined which stations got them and which didn't? (e.g. Crugers and Montrose remained no-platform til they were closed 3 years ago)
I didn't start riding Metro North til about 10 years ago, so can't speak to the Seventies/Eighties history ... but I had been under the impression that it was Metro North (post 1984 or so) that did the high-platforming. Did Penn Central and/or Conrail do some of it as well?
The high level platforms were constructed in 1972-73 in preparation for the arrival of the M-1a Metropolitans, purchased by the MTA for use on what was then the Penn Central Hudson Division and Harlem Branch. At first only 125 Street and the Westchester County stops were made high level; Mount Vernon West to North White Plains on the Harlem Branch(as it was then known) and Ludlow to Croton-Harmon on the Hudson Divsion. AT this time the 3rd rail on the Harlem did not extend past North White Plains, later the Bronx stops were made high-level also.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Very interesting. Does anyone know if there are any "remains" of the High Bridge station?
Chuck
Then, pulling out a 1917 NY Central time table, I see that between Peekskill and Poughkeepsie, the following stops have also gone missing:
- Storm King (I presume this is the Breakneck Ridge request-only stop?)
- Chelsea, between Beacon & New Hamburg
- Camelot, between New Hamburg & Poughkeepsie
Same Qs: What happened? When? Any stations?
Thanks to all ... should I do the Harlem line similarly?
When I was riding the R through the Montague street Brooklyn bound I noticed a blocked off tunnel shaft south of Whitehall. What was that built for?
Possible connection to Staten Island. Brian
[When I was riding the R through the Montague street Brooklyn bound I noticed a blocked off tunnel shaft south of Whitehall. What was that built for?]
I'm not certain, but I believe it had to do with a proposed different routing of the Montague Street Tunnel ... it definitely was *not* a proposed tunnel to Staten Island as often thought.
At Whitehall St. there are two BMT subways which combine into the Montague St. Tunnel. Above there are two IRT Lines feeding loops at South Ferry, and the Joralemon St. Tunnel also curving toward Brooklyn from the east side IRT and dropping in grade south of the BMT. Since the IRT was there first, the chance of a BMT connection to Staten I. at that point would involve impossible curves and grade changes. An alternate tunnel to Brooklyn would be a definite possibility, since it would parallel the existing tubes and liberate the Broadway Local traffic from the Center St. Loop. The hang-up may have been the inability to add another line to the Dekalb Av. bottleneck, and the inability in the Hylan era to start any new lines, such as an alternate through Downtown Brooklyn, thus this option was never built.
Oh no - not again!! :)
--Mark
I was flagging there on Monday. The amount of dirt at that point is amazing. What's more interesting is the void area south of the curve past Whithall St.
There just before the Switch off to Broad St. is a passageway with no apparent purpose. It's an air shaft for the fan system. It connects the Nassau St. line to the Broadway line with the ventilation fans to the street. It looks like something out of the original motion picture Alien. The spaceship where the moster kills everybody.
Standing there alone while going out to place my lamps gave me the creeps.
While wandering the MTA site for Franklin Shuttle info, I came across this:
I looked at it for a minute trying to guess where it was. From the position of the UN, Chrysler and Metlife Buildings, I figured northern Queens but as I looked at it some more, it looked like an IRT car, and the only IRT line in Queens doesn't use stainless steel cars. It's not the N, none of it's cars has three doors and there are no more els in Queens that close to the river. So, where is that?
The 7 line testing R-62 or 62A when new.
Has to be IRT. Three doors on each side.
That is indeed the Flushing line. When the R62 and 62A were first coming in, some of them were run on the Flushing line. This piccture is about 10 years old.
-Hank
What part of the MTA site did you see this pic?
3TM
Bway-Lafayette. Transfer availble to the B,D,F,6 on the upper level. The K across the platform making local stops to Varick St where you may change to the 1 and 9. On the street level the M5 and M6. 72St bound H making express stops. The next express stop will be 14St. Transfer available to the K and L trains across the platform. The M14 on the upper level. 14St is next. Stand Clear......
I found it here.
Scroll down a bit to find it.
It looks like it's south of 33rd-Rawson st.
10/20/99
How about leaving Hunterspoint Avenue on the (7) heading toward 45th Rd/Court House Square ? It was probably shot from that LIRR freight overpass,though the proper name of that route escapes me now.
Bill Newkirk
In today's Times (10/18/1999)
www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/newsnational/regional/ny franklin-shuttle.html
NOTE: All this is one line- my browser split this line
OR go to www.nytimes.com.
click NY News, click NY news then you'll find story
In today's Times (10/18/1999)
www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/newsnational/regional/ny franklin-shuttle.html
NOTE: All this is one line- my browser split this line
OR go to www.nytimes.com.
click NY News, click NY news then you'll find story.
Peggy will be doing a revised Station by Station tomorrow
I was fortunate enough to be given 2 tickets to Game 4 of the NLCS. It was an exciting game and as a fan since the POLO GROUNDS in 1962, thankfully they won. Rather than driving all the way to Shea I parked in Flushing in the big muni lot near Roosevelt Ave. It was a pleasure to take the # 7 to the game. Unfortunately the windows are all etched up and the cars were sloppy with a lot of papers strewn all over. This was at 7:20 PM while sitting in Main Street. Not trash from the game.
However #7 is the way to go. After the game ended, my friend and I crossed Roosevelt in front of Shea and used the south stairs to enter the station. We got to our car and proceeded to head home to Suffolk County. Of course we were listening to WFAN to continue the euphoria of the game. At 11:19 Ed Coleman said "Now here's Mary on the car phone". She said that she was still trying to get out of Shea's lot one hour after the game ended, while my friend and I were already on the Northern State Parkway passing Shelter Rock Road.
R33/36, I watched the game in California but I'd have given anything to have been there either Saturday or Sunday. What games. I'm very proud of my (our) METS.
I had to board my flight at O'Hare Sunday night IN THE TOP OF THE 15TH. The pilot announced the score somewhere over Pennsylvania and the flight attendant quickly distributed champagne.
That couldn't have been a Chicago-based crew then. OTOH, since the Cubs didn't make it...
They usually get junior flight attendants based out of LGA. I have talked to flight attendants who end up being "senior" on the flight with only 2 years' experience! The one who passed out the champagne was one who recognized me from a previous trip
Charles: IKt must have been one hell of a flight. Now let's root the Mets home. I'd love them to take on those arrogant Yankees.
Charles: It must have been one hell of a flight. Now let's root the Mets home. I'd love them to take on those arrogant Yankees.
It was a great game. The pitching on both sides was awesome. When Olerud hit the home run, there was a feeling that it could be a 1-0 game. Several moments later, 2 Reed pitches put that "Same Old Mets" feeling back then the bottom of the eighth and finally some agressiveness from the Mets. The hope was lets get one in so we're tied but when Mora came around, the place exploded...Personal observation....Mora should start before Henderson (Henderendous as my daughter calls him). Mora seems to play harder and want it more. That the hit came off of Rocker was icing on the cake. The chants of "Rocker Sucks" and "Asshole" seemed like good-natured fun. All in all it was a fantastic game, also due in part to the quickness of the game ( 2:20 ) since there was only one walk and very few 3-2 counts.
I still think parking in Flushing and taking the #7 is the way to go.
PS---On bus talk I'm HART BUS but here I'm changing my name to my favorite subway car.
I know this was asked before but why was the el torn down? Did the store owners see it as blocking their storefront and therefore business was low?
3TM
2Av. Transfer available to the F across the platform making local stops to 179 St, Jamaica. The J,P,Z lines on the upper level 2Av express and local to the Bronx. The M15 and M21 on the street level. This a 72St bound H manking express stops. The next express stop will be Bway-Lafayette. Transfer available to the B,D,F,6 on the upper level. The K across the platform making local stops. The M5 and M6 on the upper level. Stand Clear of the closing doors.....
The civic association felt that the removal of the El would bring sunlight to the street and droves of shoppers to their stores. It was considered a symbol of urban blight.
But they were right on one respect. It has never been the same since the El was removed.
--Mark
You have a choice now, Archer Av. or Hillside Av. Jamaica Av is caught in the middle.
But for 11 years you had NO subway service along Jamaica Ave (Hillside ave is 3 LONG blocks north, and it's all uphill).
I could understand the arguments for killing the Myrtle and 3rd Ave. lines, as both of those lines would have needed large scale rehabilitation if they were going to continue in service. But to kill a perfectly viable elevated line, only to replace it with an expensive subway just one short block away was economically stupid. Perhaps the money spent on the Archer Ave. line would have been much more useful being used to finish the 2nd Ave. line.
Only the courthouse (opened a couple of years after the removal of the el) has kept the entire neighborhood from collapsing.
The Archer Ave line was supposed to be the first part of an extension into eastern Queens. Of course, that plan is dead now.
Great idea, but why tear down the el? They should have just planned an extension of the IND and left the BMT J line alone.
Sorry, but I'm really bitter about this subject.
You must have lived along the Jamaica El after 121?
3TM
Pelham Pkwy. Transfer to the P express across the platform. Transfer is also availablt to the Bx12 on the street level. This is a Manhattan bound P making local stops. The next local stop will be Neill Av. Transfer to the Bx8 on the street level. Step in, step on, step off, step out and stand clear of the closing doors...
No, I live farther down near Woodhaven Blvd. However, my mother frequently took me to Jamaica to shop as a kid. Because the J was cut back to Queens Blvd. after 77 we would always take the B56 bus (even though I would plead to take the train, then transfer to the Q49, but this took twice as long). I hate busses, especially back then because I would get sick on them. Journeys to Jamaica then became a sort of torture.
Every summer my mother would take me and my brother and sister to the Bronx Zoo, which I hated because it was a loooooong bus ride (guaranteed to make me ill). I pleaded each year in vain to use the subway, but the trip through "gang country" always worried my mother. We would also go the the Museum of Natural History every year as well. Except for the dinosaur bones, this was the most boring place in the world for me to go to, but I loved it because of the long trip on the A/AA train. I'm sure you've heard the expression "getting there is half the fun", but for me it was all the fun.
I used to be the same way when I was a little kid as well. Always wanted to use public transportation........
3TM
Neill Av. Transfer to the Bx8 on the street level. The next station will be Williamsbridge Rd. Stand Clear of the closing doors.......
Since the 30's, the City has been using the excuse that Els are a blight on the neighborhood and need to be torn down before revitalization of an area could begin. I don't see Chicago or Miami taking this attitude. This poor attitude toward the Els has resulted in nothing but loss of service. Where we once had rapid transit service on 2nd and 3rd Avenues, now (since the 40's and 50's) people on the East Side must trek all the way to the overcrowded Lex. During the 1870's through about 1920, the concept was to give the public a speedy alternative to the slow surface transportation. From the 1930's to date, the concept has become replacing rapid transit with less efficient surface transportation. The Myrtle Avenue El, 3rd Ave. in the Bronx, and the Culver Shuttle are evidence of this. 2nd and 3rd Aves in Manhattan were also replaced by surface transportation. There has been talk of a 2nd Ave. Subway since the El was torn down in 1942. With what it would cost to build the 2nd Ave Subway today, all the proposed IND extensions which never came to pass, along with the 2nd Ave Subway could have been built in the 40's!
Anyone want to bet that other than 2916 to 2924, that 2579's mates (that is 2576, 2577 and 2578) might see service on this line?
Is poor old Miss 2579 being fixed up now by the subway doctors?
Nick
I don't think so. 2579, 2576, 2577, and 2578 are maintained at Concourse Yard. Franklin shuttle cars are supplied by Coney Island Yard.
On the R44 renumbering page on the web site...
You have listed...
Old number 300 = New number 5286
and
Old number 263 = New number 5286 (mistake????)
I'd think that old number 263 is really new number 5287.
Nick
Why are old #176 and old #215 revenue inactive? They would have been better off as new #5480 and new #5481, if 5480 and 5481 were allocated for R44 renumbering and not R46 renumbering.
For what reasons the other eight cars are "placed in storage"??? Does anyone know the fate of those eight cars? (that is, car #'s 109, 120, 132, 227, 248, 288, 315 and 385) A book claims those ten cars were scrapped. Has anyone seen any of these ten cars lying around anywhere recently?
Nick
Two of them sit at the block end of track 73 (or that general area) of Coney Island Yard, gathering garbage and serving as nesting grounds for the birds, but certainly never to move on their own again.
....if there is talk of having to unlink them to form 11-car trains on the #7????
Of course, you could share them with the #3's cars, but you would have a serious sharing violation, unless you assign R142's to the #3, but run into the problem of customizing to its 9-car trains, even though R142's/R142A's can also run in six-car or four-car groups.
And if even one car has a problem in the five-car set, all five are SOL because of the injury/injuries of that one car....
Linking four (R68/R68A's) or five cars (R62/R62A's) into one set.... Good move???...or Bad move???
Let me say that IMHO, this is questionable at best. But I'll let everyone else decide for themselves.
Hope NYCTA orders single cars soon...at least for the IRT...But I'd really love to see single cars on the BMT/IND...I remember that the R46's ran in 3-car consists on one of the subway lines...I wonder if 3-car R46's are still possible today.
Nick
The married pair / link car set concept is supposed to reduce the purchase cost and maintenance cost of cars because every car doesn't need every component. And we'd like to think that the SMS program in place will prevent the type of runaway maintenance problems that plagued the system in the early '80s. MTBF avergaes are the highest they've ever been.
The R-46s ran as 3 car trains on the defunct JFK express.
--Mark
The whole issue is flexibility, vs. reliability. As you state, the singles and pairs can easily be reassigned when one car or pair breaks down. On the other hand linked five car sets eliminate control stands and couplers which are frequent causes of breakdowns. thus there is a trade off to be analyzed and someone with experience, such as Steve, is best equipped to answer the question.
Interestingly, Boston's first married pairs, the Nos. 1 - 3 Blue Line cars, were linked. All subsequent pairs used couplers. Up to the 1969 order for the Red Line married pairs shared equipment. The last 24 cars of that order (01500-01523) were double ended singles. All subsequent orders have been single ended singles coupled back to back, and the 01500s were rebuilt to match.
can you help? I'm looking for pictures of the inside of NYC trains in 1960-1964. Any one know where I can find some?
If you go to New York Subway Resources web page, look for the car photo section, there are some interior shots in there from the period you are looking for. I shot a couple of them myself, years ago, at the Transit Museum, and gave all my slides to NYSR to post.
http://www.nycsubway.org/cars/
Rode down to the Loop yesterday. The south motor was a rebuilt 2600-series car. Interesting features--The cab was made into a full-time transverse cab. The microphone used by the train operator enabled her voice to be picked up a ways away, so she could be leaning out the window while making the announcements. On the side destination signs, there was an interior light, with a sign next to it saying: "If this light blinks, the train will run "Express". Lastly, the cars were rebuilt by Alsthom, in Hornell, NY.
I thought they were pretty nice. For some reason though, the CTA just doesn't care if you loose your hearing in the subway.
BJ
In other words, nothing was done about soundproofing the cars, eh?
"In other words, nothing was done about soundproofing the cars, eh?"
I ride on the 'L' daily. The rehabbed 2600's are quieter than their unrebuilt sisters - both interior and exterior noise levels.
Jim K.
Chicago
The rehabbed 2600s are significantly quieter, in my opinion. I never had a problem with the noise in the subway; I used to like the openable windows on the older cars. If you can't stand the noise, don't take the subway, in my opinion.
One thing that irks me about the CTA is that they claim the average life for a railcar is 25 years. I thought it was more like 40. That's how long older railcars have lasted. The 2200s could probably last that long or longer; they had a rehab less than 10 years ago. I think they're the most reliable in the CTA fleet.
The new capital improvement plan really is crap. They're replacing stations with close to no ridership. They claim that stations over 70 years old are no longer good anymore. I think that the stations 70 years old or older are much more solid than newer stations. At least they have doors to keep out the drafts, and actually have a nice looking station house.
The Douglas and Ravenswood projects are also outrageously expensive, because the CTA will be replacing almost every station along those lines. I agree that elevators should be put in when possible, but the CTA is going way out of their way. I'm more in favor of paratransit services than spending massive amounts of money to rebuild practically all the stations on the CTA.
The one good thing about the proposed budget is that it includes money to study express service on the North Side Main, as well as the whole Howard-Dan Ryan line, in the form of using the outer tracks on the North Main, and possibly putting in skip-stop or limited stop service on the whole North-South line. Chicago needs a lot more express service, in my opinion. I'm more in favor of express service than demolishing closer-in stations.
-Jake
While the Mets have pulled a fantastic comeback against the Braves over the weekend, and the hopes are to pull two more in Atlanta, which may be tricky, let's not forget about the current World Champions of Baseball. Up here in Boston, things are hopping mad!! Angry Red Sox fans almost started a riot on the field last night, but the Boston PD calmed things down. I'm hoping the Yankees will pull it off tonight, for the sake of the home team advantage. But if the Sox win, the Yanks must win game 6 in NY...because Pedro Martinez is pitching game 7. I want a subway series as much as anyone else, but the sox could make a comeback (but hopefully not), cause I'm not interested in a Boston/former Boston or '86 rematch. -Nick
Hi, Dave,
I just reviewed the R46 renumbering file provided by Steve. I found two errors mainly by typing. Below is my table of corrections and suggestions.
Chaohwa
New Number
Error
Correction
Note Suggestion
5482
Changed: 6/20/90
6/20/94
None
6216
Changed: 3/14/98
3/14/95
None
5614
None
None
Mates 5615-6203-6202
5615
None
None
Mates 5614-6203-6202
5616
None
None
Mates 5617-6205-6204
5617
None
None
Mates 5616-6205-6204
6202
None
None
Mates 5614-5615-6203
6203
None
None
Mates 5614-5615-6202
6204
None
None
Mates 5616-5617-6205
6205
None
None
Mates 5616-5617-6204
Also, about car 5508, what is the meaning of "McDonald Ave Lead Mtr"?
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
Hi, Dave,
I see your corrections.
One more thing. At car #5614, it shows:
Mates 5615-6203-620
It should be
Mates 5615-6203-6202
Thanks for your correction.
Chaohwa
Dave,
Sorry to bother you again.
There are several adjustments in the R46 renumbering file.
The old number of 5752 is 1134, instead of 709; that of 5753 is 709, instead of 1134. The corrections are shown in the August issue of the Bulletin.
5657 should be behind 5656, instead of 5655.
5930 should be behind 5929, instead of 5927.
6169 should be behind 6168, instead of 6161.
I just want to get it right, and thanks for your correction.
Chaohwa
i took it today and use the new enclosed transfer for the southbound C it is a very smooth one. I also tranfered from the park bound S to the IRT also a nice transfer although you have to use go by way of the northbound platform. The passageway is very short and brite and so is the mezzinine between the S and IRT. As for the shuttle stations
Franklin Avenue And Park Pl are singe track staions with black fences
As for Boltanic Gardens it has the look of an Ind Station white tiled walls and green colored station signs. The staion is very brightly lite thank god. My only conplaint is that the conductor/motorman on the shuttle didn't call out the connection to the IRT. When I ask him why he didn't he Said" why don't you do it" Nastialy I must say .
Thanks for the first report.
Is new Botanic Gardens station completely inside the tunnel? No outdoor portion?
Yep, all indoors
This is Sea View Avenue-Dongan Hills
The next stop on this V train will be Old Town Road.
Just came from a round about trip through there. (5 to S to C to L).
It looks real nice, and it even looks like they left it remotely possible to reexpand the southbound track and the platforms (In the emergency of a Manhattan Bridge closing, or down the line future service increase). But it would take some work, but not too much. On the southbound side at Botanic Gardens, there is several yards of empty space before the portal, but on the other side they constructed a concrete refuse room. This might not be too hard to remove. (couldn't tell if it was made with knockout blocks). At Park Place, they actually left space (filled with ballast)inbetween the station building and the platform. It looks like you could squeeze another track in there, but concrete canopy supports and the bridge to the fare control, and the back stairway to the next street would have to be moved. The old embankment was retained, filled with ballast but still wide enough for the other track. (I was afraid they would level the old structure and build various facility buildings in the space or sell the land off altogether.And of course, new overpasses could be built over the streets right next to the one used now) At Franklin as well, you could get another track behind the platform, but it wouldn't be able to extend quite as far north as the other one. Both Park Place and Franklin could have the platforms extended to the south with no obstruction.
Otherwise, the new connections are nice. The passage to the IRT, described by Peter Cafiero and others as having a "kink" is more acurately described as simply being at an angle. (about 30° to the right). The stained glass is not on the bridge over Fulton St (that is enclosed with wire mesh), but on the approach to the elevator to the Queens bound IND.
Also the best of the old has been preserved, namely the sloping embankments with the trees and retaining walls that gave the open cut portion the look of a country railroad. As the Times article said, the brick tunnel was redone, with compact flourescents coveed on both sides, all placed right next to each other for the length of the tunnel. You see something like this on the portal to the 60th St tunnel. Cool look.
Also the doors and windows to the outside look like classic BMT or Dyre Av. line, with the added glass of the elevators.
Perhaps this will draw so much ridership, it will reach capacity and the TA will rethink the 2 car single track arrangement short of a Manhattan Bridge closing.
10/18/99
After false reports,unsure opening dates,the rebuilt Franklin Avenue shuttle reopened today. I arrived at the Franklin Avenue street level fare controls with Mark W. At that time, 8:30AM , we arrived at the tail end of the usual speeches followed by a ribbon cutting on at the foot of the escalator. With ribbon cut , NYCTA president Larry Reuters,Joe Hoffman,other TA brass and neighborhood activists who fought the threatened shuttle closure a few years ago rode the escalator to platform level to board a ceremonial first run. Bill Newkirk and others opted to climb the stairs and partake of some transit history. We all boarded the 2 car train of R-68's (N2921-2920S) for a slow but observing ride of the renewed line. At Prospect Park,doors opened for some more photo op's and a ride back to Franklin Avenue with station stops. First stop was Botanic Garden,The old dark,dingy,dangerous and smelly station has been transformed into a work of art. Notice the tile work and mosaics. Botanic Garden never looked this good. The whole station is in the tunnel and the platform falls short of the tunnel opening. The IRT (2) & (3) connection is great,not a long walk as some have invisioned.Everybody explored and photographed with cameras , much like a fantrip.
Next stop was the beautiful Park Place station. The station building's presence was something befitting of the Brighton Line. Even the station canopies imititated a style of the old BMT. Hence the mixture of old and new works! This station has no elevators,but handicapped ramps. Access to the hospital is now easier. Back on board and to the final stop,Franklin Avenue. But first,we passed the site of the Dean Street station. There are traces if you include the concrete retaining wall , otherwise nothing else. Back to Franklin Ave. and the TA brass and news media leave and everybody goes downstairs for coffee bagels. Forget that!,I'm more interested in those free commerative baseball caps and black tee shirts proclaiming the New Franklin Avenue shuttle.
10:00AM rolls around and it time for the first revenue train to leave Franklin Ave. At each stop a couple of people board amazed at the transformation to this old historic transit line that resembled post World War II Europe. As the sun came out strong I spent the early part of the afternoon photographing to my hearts content.
NOW IT'S YOUR TURN TO CHECK OUT THIS LINE AND SEE WHAT WAS DONE. CALL IN SICK,LEAVE YOUR WIFE,FLY FROM IN IMMEDIATELY!!! If you remember what Franklin looked in the old days,prepare yourself for a new millenium look.Let's look at it this way. The New Franklin Shuttle is a new line , but an old route. REBIRTH BEGAN TODAY! Come and check it out.
R-68 cars seen today: N2912-2920S - N2922-2923S - layup of southbound shuttle track N2919-2917S.
Bill Newkirk
Reporting
10/18/99
A EXTRA NOTE TO MY EXTRA LONG POST.
There are MVM's at Park Place and Franklin Avenue
Bill Newkirk
Reporting
And Franklin/Botanic and Prospect Park.
There are MVMs at all Franklin Ave. Shuttle stations. Also, for those of you who have not ventured out to the Franklin Ave. Shuttle, I advise you do so soon. The one thing I didn't expect was the shape of the R68s (2917-2923). They are absolutely spotless, bright and not one scratch can be found on the windows. Something I havent seen on an R68 in almost 10 years.
I was also shocked to see completey scratch-free windows o those R68's. I fear they won't even last a week before some juvenile miscreants feel they have to assault public property just to seem important.
Thank you Bill for that excellent and descriptive report. (music) It's 12:48 and that means it's time for transit and weather together, right Todd :)
Seriously, I heard a report on NewsRadio 88 this morning that some residents were (get this) complaining that the redone shuttle was redone TOO well; that is, the MTA spent too much money making the line shine in what residents themselves called a dangerous neighborhood. They felt that if it was going to be defaced in a few months, why spend all the money? (I'm NOT making this up, folks!)
I'd think keeping it in good shape from now on would be an incentive to ride it now.
--Mark
Right, Mark! Too bad I'm not in town now or I'd say, "It's a beautiful day for a ride on the Q-express on a Slan-40 over the Manhattan Bridge for a connection to the newly-reopened Franklin Shuttle!"
I read an article in the Daily News stating that residents in the area are not done yet. It seems that they want to reincarnate Dean Street.........
3TM
34St-Javits Ctr. Transfer available to the M34 on the upper level. This H train will now be making local stops to 72St. The next local stop will be 42St. Transfer available to the M42 on the upper level. Stand Clear of the closing doors........
Talk about not appreciating what you've got. If most people had had their way, the Franklin shuttle ROW would have had new houses built over it.
While riding it I had visions of what a similar repair job would have looked like had the city retained the Bronx 3rd. Ave. shuttle and the Myrtle Ave. el. At least those 2 lines would have been used by enough people to justify the expense.
[they want to reincarnate Dean Street]
If they wanted it, they shouldn't have burned it down.
I don't recall Dean Street having been burned down. I only remember that more people used that station for free than paid for it.
This is 86 Street, transfer to the Q
The next stop on this V will be 125 Street, change there for the 4, 5 and 6 trains.
10/20/99
EUGENIUS.
I believe the wooden planked Franklin Avenue platform was burned down. After the platform was removed and of course never restored,the original tracks underneath were exposed for the first time since the 20's. That's right,ties and rails,but no third rails.
Bill Newkirk
This was after the shuttle was closed? I remember riding the line in it's last days.
This is Longwood Avenue
The next stop will be Hunts Point Avenue, change there for the V.
10/21/99
Eugenius,
I don't when the platform was removed,had to be around 10 years ago.
But I remembered seeing the original rails that were covered by the platform for years. However in the last years before the closure,weeds started to obscure the tracks. I took pictures of them,sorry I can't scan them.
Bill Newkirk
Evenbefore it burned down, parts of the platform were so decrepit that it wouldn't have taken much for someone to fall through it. I remember having to tread very lightly on that platform during the Farewell to the R-30 fantrip back in 1993.
--Mark
After visiting that area I think there's some justification. The shuttle does not run over or right next to, a thoroughfare of any sort at that point. You have to walk some distance to a parallel road, then walk the couple of blocks to Franklin Ave. The distance isn't a killer, but simply judging by the distance between the old Dean St locale and the Franklin Ave station is deceptive. That said, I say a new Dean Street isn't worth the expense.
10/22/99
The real judge of that could be the number of fares per day at the turnstiles.
Bill Newkirk
10/19/99
Mark Feinman,
Ain't that a kick in the head. And what if the line was rebuilt as minimal and as austere as possible,what would riders think? This is what we waited months for? You know,damned if you do and damned if you don't. Maybe the high class rebuilding should be a sort of kick start to the area by saying,"OK we did our part to rise from the ashes,now its your turn to turn it around".
I was so used to riding a photographing the line that day and viewing the neighborhoods through scratch free windows,I went into shock when a conventional R-68 (D) pulled into Prospect Park with all windows scratched and scarred. That's why I said get there now and get your shots. Also I didn't mention in yesterdays post at Franklin Avenue they even installed windows of small window panes that mimicked the wind breakers on the old BMT elevateds.
Bill Newkirk
Reporting
"We will return to the hits of Bill Foonman's all lineswitch orchestra but now fantrip weather by our own Todd Glickman"
Also great thing about the beautiful (now) shuttle: NO CORRUGATED STEEL WINDSCREENS!!!
This is Fulton-South Street Seaport, change for the A, C, J, M, 2, 3, 4 and 5 trains.
The next stop on this V train will be Chatham Square
Hi, all!
Sorry I hadn't posted earlier, but some family matters came up.
Yeah, we have to use the term "NEW Franklin Avenue Shuttle" since it bares only a resemblance to the original in the path of the ROW.
Bill did a good job of describing the day. I got there at about 8:10 am (in the thick of the political speeches -- which usually I can't stand, but actually enjoyed since they were complimenting the fine work and many of them spoke of fond memories of riding the original to Coney Island). Not long after I ran into Mark W. (with video camera in hand) and Bill Newkirk.
The really cool thing about the event was that it was a TRUE gala experience -- balloons, ribbing cutting, FREE coooool "We're Back On Track" Franklin Shuttle T-shirts (double-sided), and limited supply ball caps. (And I was one who had originaly heard there wasn't going to be a big gala event. Go figure...)
One of my personal favorite items on the line was the beautiful stained glass at the Fulton/Franklin terminal. You can tell that alot of time and effort was put into revitalizing the line.
The Franklin Shuttle communities and railfans alike should revoice in the return of this most historic of all New York rapid transit lines! My it last well into the next millennium.
Doug aka BMTman
Who are you, some TSS?
Recently i was riding on the J elevated line looking out of the front of the train. i realized that the signal and braking system is on the left side while the signal and braking system is on the right side on the IRT and the IND.I'm curious why is this sytem different than the the two other lines?I heard also the equipment on the flushing line the R-36 trains are equiped with braking on the left side also thank you if you have the right answer for me.
Actually, its the BMT and IND which have the trip-cocks on the same side, with the IRT being the opposite.
This goes back to when both the BMT and IRT were privately owned, competing systems. The IND used the BMT style when it built it's line because they planned to merge the 2 systems when they managed to get control of it (in 1940).
Also, either division, the signals are all on the right unless you have a repeat signal on the left for whatever reason.
This is Vanderbilt Avenue-Clifton
The next stop on this V train will be Water Street-Stapleton
Lastly, the IRT Flushing line uses the BMT arrangement, since the Flushing and Astoria were once shared between the two companies, and since the cars used on the (7) are sent over the BMT to Coney Island for major repairs. Because Flushing cars are sometimes shipped to other IRT routes, the R-33WF cars have trip cocks on both sides, and run in the lead whenever a train of Flushing cars operates on the main lines or a train of main line cars ventures to the BMT-IND or to Flushing.
Cars reassigned permanently are altered to match the line they are running on.
[ Lastly, the IRT Flushing line uses the BMT arrangement, since the
Flushing and Astoria were once shared between the two companies, and
since the cars used on the (7) are sent over the BMT to Coney Island
for major repairs. Because Flushing cars are sometimes shipped to
other IRT routes, the R-33WF cars have trip cocks on both sides, and ]
I always see people saying this, and I'm not sure why. I think it's become a "subfan legend" of sorts.
I take the darned thing every day (the 7 line), and every time the tripcocks are on the right. That's IRT style. BMT/IND equipment has the tripcocks on the left. So the 7 line _is_ in conformance with the rest of the IRT system.
The 33S cars DO have trips on both sides, but that's not for going to other IRT lines, it is for going onto the Astoria/Broadway line, which is naturally BMT style.
I was going to say this, but not before confirming it with a ride along the Flushing line. I doubt the Flushing line could be BMT/IND confgured, since it was used to test the R62 and regularly trades cars with the Pelham 6 line.
In the days of dual service Corona and Astoria lines were
equipped with two-fisted trips.
The dual trip cocks and diversion valves of the R33S are
so the cars can have protection when operating over the B
division, especially for major maintenance which needs to
be done at CI.
Didn t at one time the Flushing line was actually operated by the BMT even though they used IRT equipment?
The BMT used elevated cars from it's own lines, not from that of the IRT. Standard gate cars or BUs (Brooklyn Union Elevated) as they were referred to, were the mainstay of Flushing and Astoria until 1939. After 1939, the gate equipped cars were replaced with Q Types, which were essentially rebuilt BUs. 1939 was the year of the World's Fair at Flushing Meadows Park. The BMT had no money to order new cars, so the older elevated car equipment was rebuilt as a result. Note: Prior to 1915, all cars of the BMT (then as the BRT) were built to the smaller IRT specs (actually slightly shorter) in the days before the AB Standards.
-Stef
If I remember correctly what my uncle once told me, the standards/Triplex terminated at Queensboro Plaza, and you transfered to Qs to Astoria or Flushing. From Times Sq on the 7 they were thru trains to Flushing, but you still had to transfer at the Bridge Plaza to Astoria(he was a conductor many years on the Brighton Line in 40s and 50s)
Correct! Some additions though: Some trains from Times Sq ran to Astoria, and 2nd Av Elevated trains ran over the 59th St Bridge (until 1942) to Astoria or Corona.
-Stef
What about the C-type BMT trains? What were those about?
This is Houston Street
The next stop on this W train will be 8 Street.
Those were older, enclosed wooden el cars, which mostly ran on the Fulton St. el.
some C Cars believe it or not had a PA System, if you have the book The Brooklyn Elevated, the C Cars start on page 62
{To Dave P., sitemaster: do we have an FAQ?}
A very brief history of dual service on the queens lines: From
1923-1949, the IRT and BMT operated joint service over both the
Astoria and Corona/Flushing lines. Queensboro Plaza was twice
as large as it is today. Platforms were set for the narrower
8.5 foot width on both lines. The BMT steels, aka the ABS, aka
the Standards, were too wide and turned back at QP after running
out to Queens via the Bway subway and 60 St tubes. Likewise
the wooden Brooklyn elevated equipment ("BUs") were not used
in the subway. The BMT operated a shuttle service which ran
from QP to Astoria, came back, then ran out to Corona, came
back, etc. The IRT operated through service with wooden elevated
cars that came from the 2nd Ave el in Manhattan, crossed via
the 59 St bridge, and ran out to Corona or Astoria. Wooden
elevated cars were not run past Willets Point and were not
allowed in the Main Street station. The IRT of course also operated
through subway trains via the Steinway tubes, Corona line to
Main Street. They may have also from time to time run subway
trains to Astoria. Both lines were equipped with two-fisted
trip arms to deal with the BMT/IRT difference, as well as dual
third rails; subway style on one side and el style on the other.
This arrangement was discontinued in 1949 after the 2 Ave service
was abandoned. Today the only hint of dual operation is the fact
that the #7 line uses the BMT radio frequencies.
And posts like this one are why I enjoy SubTalk ....
Yes, whenever you ask a question you usually get more information than you ever expected to. It's great. My knowledge of the history of the system has increased by a factor of 10 since I discovered this website.
I have seen photos of R-12's runing to Astoria. I can't say if it was an in service train but I don't see a reason for them to be there otherwise.
Turn around moves are normally done at 39/Bebee Av. in the middle. So why send a transfer to Ditmars? And they wouldn't have used them as trash haulers back then, so I can only guess that they were in service.
Is there any documantation to this?
Astoria was a valid Lo-V destination plate sign. There is evidence
that the IRT ran this service (Times Sq/Astoria) but I don't
know when or how often. It seems unlikely that the R-12s were
in service on the Astoria line though. They came in 1949 just
as the IRT Astoria service was being abandoned.
It was on the side destination signs and end destination signs if you could find a rare original one. I'd think it unlikely as well. But hey, it could have happened.
I am trying to find out what department to contact to have two new exit turnstiles installed in a station. It is a large station where most people exit from the first 3 cars which leads to ONE turnstile and MASSIVE overcrowding.
Good lucl. In forrest hills they just closed off one of the iron maidens. They built a series of tiny rooms in the area in front of it out of concrete block. Now there's even more people than before waiting to use the two remaining exits. Of course, the little rooms don't appear to be used for anything. Now that this has been for a couple weeks there are even longer lines to the stairs on the other side of the mezzanine where the 24 hr booth is.
Do you happen to mean revolving doors?
This is Water Street-Stapleton
The next stop on this V train will be Victory Boulevard-Tompkinsville
This is Victory Boulevard-Tompkinsville
The next stop is St. George Harbor, where transfer will be available to the E.
I'm only an occasional SubTalker, and I noticed your ongoing litany of station announcements, some of which have no basis in reality---is this an example of service that you'd like to see in place, i.e., your idea of an improved, ideal system?
I think that that should have been directed at me, in which case the answer is yes. This is my expansion plan, read the inaugural message from the archives.
This is Wall-Pine
The next stop on this V train will be Fulton-South Street Seaport, change there for the A, C, J, M, 2, 3, 4 and 5 trains.
Tonight at Whitehall St(N/R). a D train pulled in dumped passengers and annouced train is going back to CI. How and why?
How -- Check the track maps. From DeKalb Avenue a train arriving from the Brighton line can access the Montague street tunnel but no regular service is operated in this manner.
As for why-- probably some disruption on the Manhattan Bridge or Sixth Avenue.
-Dave
16:23 D Stillwell was re-routed to Whitehall Street due to a police request for 'Power-Off' at 59th St. To my knowledge, this was the only reroute due to this incident...
If you can read this message Thurston, I am now an official streetcar operator on the Branford Electric Railway. So much for bets!!! It looks like I won this one. I became qualified as of 5PM Saturday, October 16th on Car 4573 (BRT). George B. was kind enough to give me the test and I scored a 95 on it. Wow! I put 4573 away as well as 357 (JTC) and 2001 (Montreal).
Rapid Transit Cars, here I come!!!
I passed up the Harmon Shop Open House to accompany Jeff H. to Kingston for their special event.
-Stef
In case others are wondering what this is all about ... the trolley guys at Shoreline want me to take the trolley operator classes this Spring. Stef has been ready to make it official, but doing a little procrastinating on taking the test (I'm very good at that), so I made a friendly wager that if he didn't look out I might get there first.
Congrads to Stef !! When do you get fitted for the uniform ?
Mr t__:^)
Actually, you can look into your closet, and put some different parts of clothing together. Most uniforms are navy blue, but you can wear black. Your biggest concern should probably be getting a Railroad Cap, either new or used. Among other items, you should obtain a flashlight, ticket punch, and a whistle. Get gloves so you don't suffer from rope burn. Lastly, badge plates are available by mail, that is your membership number on a metal plate to be fitted on your railroad cap.
Get yourself together and do what I did. I hope to see you soon.
Lastly, I now have no reason not to engage in operations.
-Stef
Congratulations Mr 4573!! Hope to see you there operating real soon!
--Mark
Thanks! Branford has an excellent collection of electric streetcars. I'll also operate JTC 357, and ConnCo 775 at some point, as well as others. But wait until I become a Rapid Transit Car Operator. I'll do it. Can you see it now? I'll be your friendly car operator taking you down the line in the R9 or the R17 in a few years. Hehehe.... I suppose I better take one step at a time.
Cheers,
Mr. Convertible, aka Stef
Congratulations, Stef!!
Next trolley ride I take, I expect to see you at the helm!
Best of luck on your rapid transit testing.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks, pal. I expect to see you again soon, won't I? My baby has one more weekend in the shop. It looks like she's heading back into the one of the car barns for a vacation from rehab. Hopefully, it won't be too long and then I can go back to work on her. Meanwhile, I'll have to find something else to do.
-Stef
Congrats, Stef! I'm interested in doing the same, time and energy permitting - both of which are in short supply at this point. But maybe ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Give it a shot as you have nothing to lose.
Cheers,
Stef
Hey - congratulations! I'll bet it won't be long before you can operate subway cars as well. The first time you take 6688 out for a spin, you'll have to say, "I've always wanted to do this" as you wrap the controller all the way around.
Most certainly. I have gotten a crack at 6688 already. It was my first full run from Short Beach during Autumn in NY after hours. My colleague graciously put the brake handle in my hand and I took it back. By no means will it be my last operating session. I thought that maybe I'd get to work on the car over the weekend, but unfortunately, I was spending the day looking at another breed of animal, the R17's big brother 6398. I was however, assiting Jeff in inspecting lights of the destination and end signs. Leave it to the man to figure it out. The end number sign on #2 end didn't come on because the socket was was corroded. Jeff loosened the corrosion and Voila!, the end sign lit up again. Incredible.
Thanks for the congrats, and I hope you'll stop by and spend a day up at BERA.
-Stef
I have gotten wind of plans to close the Franklin
Ave Shuttle Line and convert it to an amusement park
ride. The recent book on the Malbone Street
Disaster got some amusement park executives to do
some serious brainstorming. The idea that they
have been kicking around involves making the
Shuttle into the Malbone Street Disaster Reenactment
Ride. Amusement Park Customers would board the ride
at Franklin Ave. The train operator would be made
up to look like one of the recent mayors of New
York City. Once a particular mayor was selected for
a reenactment run, only customers who hated this
mayor or who were hated by this mayor would be
allowed to board. Once the doors closed, and the
brakes released, the train operator would notch the
controller into crash speed. While heading for the
deadly curve, the mayor would come on the public
address system and castigate the customers for their
failings in life. Customers would be able to try to
break the train operator's compartment door down in
an attempt to get at the mayor and stop the crash
from occuring. Unknown to the customers, the cars
all have floors which will open up at the last
minute and drop the customers and train operator
into a gigantic pool of sawdust which will save
them. The cars will proceed to inevitable
disaster. There will be a gigantic 100 foot deep
pit where the crushed cars will fall. Since the MTA
has several thousand modern rapid transit cars which
are suitable for this demolition, there will be no
problem about availability of rolling equipment.
There will be a special accomodation made for any
rail fans who wish to photograph the actual crash.
There will be three spots in the lead car that will
not have a drop floor underneath, and railfans will
be able to stand there and take the picture of their
dreams. A picture worth dying for.
10/19/99
Hay Paul,
If this amusment park conversion takes place , does that me we all have to wear those weird glasses you were trying to sell us?
Bill Newkirk
BELLVUE EXPRESS,NEXT STOP ???
Ummm.....
I LIKE IT!
Maybe we can interest Disney.
HeyPaul!
You are a comic genius! I love it!
As they say in the Viagra ads -- Keep it up!
Doug aka BMTman
I'm working on a film project about E. 96th St. and it's gotten me thinking
about the fact that the point where the Metro-North Railroad
rises up out of the ground and becomes elevated on the Park Ave. viaduct
also serves as the exact border between the Upper East Side and East Harlem.
Park Ave. is completely transformed by this solid, hulking stone wall,
and I'm just wondering whether the rest of the changes that accompany
the crossing of that border are a result of the elevated track.
Does anybody know anything about this? Please respond!
Hmmmm. Actually I believe that 96th St. is customarily accepted as the dividing line between the UES and Harlem, whereas the track emerges at 95th St. But the viaduct predated most of Harlem's development, and I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "...the rest of the changes that accompany that boder...".
If you mean the conversion to a poor(er) neighborhood from a richer one, a little social history here: It wasn't until the early part of this century (many years after the viaduct was built) that an excess of "new law tenement" apartment buildings, built on spec, led a handful of desperate landlords to break the color barrier and rent to blacks -- thereby quickly transforming Harlem into its legendary self.
For what it's worth.
JV, that's a hispanic neighborhood, not a black neighborhood. It's called El Barrios.
N Bwy: That's true, now. But in the teens, the color barrier (which meant anyone non-white, or of non-Euro descent) was first broken by landlords who rented to African-Americans. I believe El Barrio came later, with the influx of Puerto Ricans into NYC after WW2. Open to correction, though ....
Before WWII East Harlem was Mostly Italian. after the war, the Latinos moved in and the Italians left for the outer boros
Actually 97th.
This is E. Houston Street, change for the F.
The next stop will be 14 Street, change there for the L, W and Y trains.
You are right that she is one block off on the portal location. You went one block the wrong way, however. The portal is at 97th Street.
I had a friend who lived on the southeast corner of 97th and Park, and it was amazing the difference one block made. There was graffiti on the outside of the building and it had the same look as any other anonomus tennament, although you could impress people with your Park Avenue address -- so long as they never came to visit.
Also the sharp dropoff of Park Ave. from 96th to 99th Street serves to hide the poorer part of the avenue from the people who live south of 96th.
[Also the sharp dropoff of Park Ave. from 96th to 99th Street serves to hide the poorer part of the avenue from the people who live south of 96th.]
This dropoff could itself be part of the reason for the change in economic status. Years ago, there might have been a preference for the "heights" vs. the "lowlands." The viaduct itself wouldn't have been a factor, indeed it was a consequence of the terrain.
Peter Rosa,
I think this is a good point. I am constantly amazed by the consistency of the phenomenon of physical hierarchy in the places I've lived: Washington Heights, where the white people live up on a cliff overlooking the Dominican flats, and Oakland CA, where the rich people live in mansions in the hills looking down on the predominantly black valley below. Do you have any documentation of this cause & effect, or were you just hypothesizing?
-subgirl
divisioniii@hotmail.com
("[Also the sharp dropoff of Park Ave. from 96th to 99th Street serves to hide the poorer part of the avenue from the people who live south of 96th.]
This dropoff could itself be part of the reason for the change in economic status. Years ago, there might have been a preference for the "heights" vs.
the "lowlands." The viaduct itself wouldn't have been a factor, indeed it was a consequence of the terrain. ")
>>Washington Heights, where the white people live up on a cliff overlooking the Dominican flats
Hey, I resemble that remark. My apartment is on the cliff, and my bedroom overlooks the Dominican flats.
BTW, I take the M98 Limited bus to and from work, which travels down Lexington and up 3rd Avenue across 96th street. The demarcation between the two neighborhoods is striking.
--Mike
[I am constantly amazed by the consistency of the phenomenon of physical hierarchy in the places I've lived: Washington Heights, where the white people live up on a cliff overlooking the Dominican flats, and Oakland CA, where the rich people live in mansions in the hills looking down on the predominantly black valley below. Do you have any documentation of this cause & effect, or were you just hypothesizing?]
Higher elevations have long been considered desirable locations for housing when compared with lowlands. New York is only one of many examples throughout the nation and the world. While I'm sure there are some exceptions, as a general rule this seems correct. Reasons for this preference probably have to do with climate, light, lack of flood danger, etc.
J Lee,
Thanks for responding to my post. It's interesting that you mention the sharp dropoff on Park Ave. beginning on 96th St. I've been wondering whether that was the original cause of the Metro-North going elevated at that point: because the ground drops away from the tracks as it slopes downhill. I know that this is the case with the 1/9 going elevated just for the 125th st. station and then burrowing back underground through washington heights. Do you know anything about this?
By the way, if you're still in touch with your 97th St. friend, I'd love to get in touch with him or her. You can pass on my email address: divisioniii@hotmail.com. Thanks!
(from J Lee's post):
"I had a friend who lived on the southeast corner of 97th and Park, and it was amazing the difference one block made. There was graffiti on the
outside of the building and it had the same look as any other anonomus tennament, although you could impress people with your Park Avenue
address -- so long as they never came to visit.
Also the sharp dropoff of Park Ave. from 96th to 99th Street serves to hide the poorer part of the avenue from the people who live south of 96th. "
He's changed locations since then, to an apartment in the east 80s. (Metro North can be pretty loud coming out of the tunnel at 97th)
I've see some old pictures of Park Ave before it was decked over and gentrified, and I'd say some of the hill there really is a drop-off in the land level, but part of the drop is man-made by the creation of the Park Ave. tunnel. The hump is more noticable walking crosstown the closer you get to Grand Central, as the number of tracks increases.
(Street grade raised to cover Park Av. tracks) That's true farther south, but the hill in the 90s is a natural contour; it was an obstacle both to the Harlem RR, which had to terminate there in its earliest days before it could get the money together to bore through the hill to the Harlem flats, and later to developers, who did not bother to build on such difficult terrain until all the rest of the East Side (including East Harlem to the north) was covered with housing. Its profile has since been shaved down, not built up.
(It wasn't until the early part of this century (many years after the
viaduct was built) that an excess of "new law tenement" apartment buildings, built on spec, led a handful of desperate landlords to break the color barrier and rent to blacks -- thereby quickly transforming Harlem into its legendary self.)
JV,
Thanks for the info. But could you clarify for me--what are "new law tenement" buildings? What do you mean by "on spec"? What caused this whole situation--was it the construction of the subway system that prompted lanlords to overbuild uptown in anticipation of the crowds that would spread north with the new rapid transit?
thanks,
subgirl
[what are "new law tenement" buildings?]
They are buildings designed after the 1901 tenement law was enacted by the city to improve the quality of multiple dwellings by mandating windows, ventilation shafts and other amenities. The law came in response to the horrendous conditions in "old-law" tenements built on 25-foot-wide lots. New law buildings tended to be built on 3 or more such lots to incorporate the light & air wells required. Because it was developed later, Harlem (and definitely Wash. Heights & Inwood) has more new-law buildings than parts of Manhattan to the south.
[What do you mean by "on spec"?]
It's a real estate term (from "on speculation") meaning a bulding built without signed leases. Many of the great waves of development in Manhattan were of spec buildings, and every now and then there were crashes as economic conditions turned down and new buildings went empty. The same thing still happens in commercial construction today (most recently in the early Nineties), but there's so little new residential built in Manhattan that it no longer happens for apts.
[What caused this whole situation--was it the construction of the subway system that prompted lanlords to overbuild uptown in
anticipation of the crowds that would spread north with the new rapid transit?]
Complex question, perhaps better answered by NYC economic historians than railfans. Short answer: Yes, clearly construction of both elevated railroads (pre-IRT) and the various subway lines led to massive construction of multiple dwellings en masse. These replaced anything from empty land to single-family homes or older "French flats" from the 1860s or 1870s.
This is especially true of parts of upper Manhattan and Queens. There are various historic photos showing elevated trains and freshly-built subways passing through virtual farmland, or farmland with a street grid overlaid, that was about to be developed.
Side note here: It's the DENSITY of the resulting construction that makes rail transit work so well. The special ability of rail -- to move LOTS of people on dedicated paths -- only pays off, in urban planning terms, if you have high density around the stations. NYC has six-story buildings around many subway stops. Places like LA, except for business cores, don't and never will -- making rail nice but economically ridiculous. End of rant ....
It's certainly a major contributing factor. In Philadelphia, there used to be a "Chinese wall" railroad viaduct running through Center City. Until it was torn down in the 50's, the neighborhood surrounding it was not good, but after it was removed, it became Market West, a center of skyscrapers and commerce, and also has some luxury apartment buildings.
Yes, but Park Ave viaduct runs North/South and division we're speaking of is along an east/west line: above & below 95th or 96th St. Not the same thing.
Subgirl raises a very interesting question about the 96th Street border. I've been looking through some architectural guidebooks that I have on New York City, and the only one that I could find addressing the issue was Paul Goldberger's The City Observed published in 1979. He doesn't directly speak to the issue of cause and effect, but he does eloquently describe the divide. He said that nowhere else in the city do the very rich and very poor live so close together without a middle class buffer between them. It's just a page or so in length, but he ends his observations saying that the Park Ave Viaduct in Spanish Harlem shows that mass transit can be as destructive to a neighborhood as building a highway
It's made all the more ironic or glaring when you consider that in building Grand Central Station they constructed one of my favorite spots in the city. The Circumferential Highway, that wraps Park Ave around the terminal has always been a fascinating piece of architecture and highway.
I will try to look for more information about the history of the viaduct and the history of East Harlem.
(Mass transit can be as destructive as a highway).
It was public housing that cemented East Harlem's future as a low income neighborhood, by statute. South of 96th, tenements were replaced by luxury buildings on Park after the railroad was put underground, and by postwar high-rises after the 2nd and 3rd Avenue els were torn down.
The tide of affluence would have continued to move north. But north of 96th Street, tenements were torn down and replaced by public housing, legally mandated to be restricted to the poor and the poor only. Later, that mandate was extended to welfare recipiants, the homeless, the mentally ill only, effectively excluding the working poor, two parent families, etc. Public housing has become a social landfill, a huge solid block of people with social problems, with everyone who can fleeing the inside and the outside. (New rules are trying to turn this around -- NYC is better than most other cities, where they have ended up dynamiting the projects).
Take away the projects, and the tide would have continued north, viaduct or no.
>>Take away the projects, and the tide would have continued north, viaduct or no.
Having grown up on 95th St., I've thought a lot about the yellow line (my personal metaphor for the border, since 96th is a two-way street), and I'm convinced that Larry is on the money. The irony is that that's exactly what the projects are for, to stabilize the border--they were built at a time when decay was seen as creeping south, and an irrevocable lower-middle-class border was seen as a way of 'protecting' the affluent neighborhoods, and especially important institutions outside the city's core (in this case, Mount Sinai Hospital. Cf. Stern's "New York 1960" for a description of Columbia's involvement in building Morningside Gardens and the General Grant Houses.) Just as decay never eclipsed my old neighborhood (although subgirl may be surprised to know how shabby Carnegie Hill was before about 1985) thanks to the barrier of the Carver Houses, so too the wave of gentrification coming up from the south never made it any further up.
The railroad was decisive, however, in establishing the border in the early part of this century--that's intuitively obvious, and a review of the building history does bear that out. (I used old land maps.) We all know that trains a few feet from your window are a nuisance--Park Avenue was itself no fine address before the Harlem was covered over--and the viaduct poses an additional obstacle to development by blocking off 97th (since bridged), 98th, and 99th Sts. Nobody wants to live on a dead-end street, so those blocks attracted industrial uses. (The Lexington Houses are on the site of a 3rd Avenue El car barn, and a substation survives on the grounds; the 100th St. bus depot was a trolley barn.) Of course, mixed industrial-residential development characterized the entire length of Third Avenue undel the el; as far as I can guess, when the el was demolished planners simply decided to extend the yellow line east to the river by replacing industry with luxury development south of 96th (the Ruppert Towers, on the site of the brewery that built The House That Ruth Built) and with housing projects to the north. Between Madison and Fifth, however, a priveleged enclave extends up to 103rd St., nurtured by Mount Sinai (doctors' and nurses' residences) and the park.
East Harlem actually has older housing stock than the Carnegie Hill area, which was developed last because of the difficult terrain. It has always been lower-class because it was developed via the El, but it has never been a black neighborhood, as someone here suggested; it was originally divided into German, Jewish, and Italian neighborhoods, and became largely Puerto Rican after WW2. Some Italian pockets survive, with occasional saints' festivals and restaurants such as Rao's and Patsy's.
Thanks for an interesting post. I suspect there are few "borders" in any cities that are as dramatic yet as physically unimposing as 96th Street on the East Side. By "physically unimposing," I mean that 96th Street is just an ordinary if two-way city street, not some large barrier such as a river, park or or even a highway. It all now makes more sense.
One thing you said illustrates how times have changed. It might have been true that many years ago, building a large public housing project (the Carver Houses?) would've been seen as creating a lower-middle-class barrier against creeping urban decay. Today, of course, a housing project would have exactly the opposite effect - it surely would lead to an outward *spread* of urban decay, due of course to the changing nature of public housing.
You mentioned Rao's restaurant as a remnant of the Italian community in East Harlem. Is that the place I'm thinking of, where it's supposedly impossible for non-big-shots to get reservations?
(The irony is that that's exactly what the projects are for, to stabilize the border--they were built at a time when decay was seen as
creeping south, and an irrevocable lower-middle-class border was seen as a way of 'protecting' the affluent neighborhoods, and especially important institutions outside the city's core (in this case, Mount Sinai Hospital. Cf. Stern's "New York 1960" for a description of Columbia's involvement in building Morningside Gardens and the General Grant Houses.) Just as decay never eclipsed my old neighborhood thanks to the barrier of the Carver Houses, so too the wave of gentrification coming up from the south never made it any further up. The railroad was decisive, however, in establishing the border in the early part of this century-- We all know that trains a few feet from your window are a nuisance--Park Avenue was itself no fine address before the
Harlem was covered over-)
Dear Dave,
Thank you so much for such a thorough and informative post. I was wondering, though--if Columbia was behind the building of Morningside Gardens and the General Grant Houses as a barrier against the spread of "urban decay", who was behind the building of the Carver Houses on the East Side? Did Mt. Sinai really have something to do with it? Do you know when they were built? And when was the Harlem covered over, anyway?
thanks again,
subgirl
(South of 96th, tenements were replaced by luxury buildings
on Park after the railroad was put underground, and by postwar high-rises after the 2nd and 3rd Avenue els were torn down.
The tide of affluence would have continued to move north. But north of 96th Street, tenements were torn down and replaced by public housing, legally mandated to be restricted to the poor and the poor only.)
Dear Larry,
Thanks, as always, for some useful information. But I am still left with some questions: you explain that the real barrier was created by public housing, which stopped the "tide of affluence" from continuing uptown. But why was the public housing built? Was it because the train was left elevated north of 96th? And why was the uptown track left elevated; why didn't they cut and cover the entire line? Why does the barrier of the Carver Houses coincide with the barrier of the elevated viaduct? Whose decision was it--Robert Moses'? Also, any specific dates that you might know would be very helpful to me--when the two waves of immigration occured, when the RR was rerouted underground below 96th St., when the tenements were replaced by public housing, etc.
Thanks again.
subgirl
"He said that nowhere else in the city do the very rich and very poor live so close together without a middle class buffer between them."
Although its not in the city, about 10 miles E/O it, I've always been amazed at the invisible border between Hempstead & Garden City on Clinton, Washington, Main Streets, etc. There isn't a
viaduct or anything separating them!! (Click on viaduct above)
Make up your mind. Is it the "hulking stone wall" or the "elevated track that caused the changes? Going North, the wall ends about half-way to the Harlem River, without any noticeable effect on the neighborhood.
I think you may be confusing cause and effect.
The railroad line that now runs on that viaduct predates any modern development. None of Park Avenue was very desirable, with sooty noisy steam locomotives operating frequent trains way downtown.
When the line was depressed south of about 96th Street (and abandoned south of 42nd--not at the same time) the broad boulevard that was created (especially when the depressed line could be roofed over) became a desirable neighborhood. I don't doubt that the presence of the viaduct further discouraged similar upscaling, for want of a better term.
However, if you are seeking the concept of a fine neighborhood brought down by the railroad, this isn't the location.
This point goes to the center of the "environmental racism" arguments. Some have held that in older cities, heavy industry tends to be located near Black and Latino neighborhoods, because the community chose to burden minorities with pollution.
In almost all cases, however, the industrial areas and working-class white neighborhoods developed together, before any Blacks or Latinos appeared. Later, whites moved to the suburbs and Blacks and Latinos moved in, attracted by decent quality, low cost housing. A generation or two later, some claim that the industry had been put there to harm them.
BTW -- the area along the Atlantic Avenue viaduct (LIRR) was one of the first Black neighborhoods in Brooklyn, excluding the older colonies such as Weeksville that date to pre-industrial times.
"Environmental racism" is quite a convolution of cause and effect. But I am quite sure that a company trying to locate something you would not want in your backyard (say, a garbage tranfer facility) may look at the ethnic make-up of an area, in addition to the land uses already there and the economic status of the area, when trying to figure out where to put their facility. Simply put, you'll get less resistance from less-enfranchised people.
Whether that's racism misses the point - its a silly argument. The concern should be that some folks in the US have a lot more exposure to environmental hazards than others. Blacks definitely don't do well in this regard. It would be good if this could be mitigated.
(And I would not consider having the N train extension to LaGuardia a block from my home an environmental hazard!)
(Cause and effect).
There was a big planning conference on environmental racism here. The claim was that because the city put industrial zoning in what are now Black and Latino areas, the result is more asthma. We pretty much showed that asthma is high in all low income areas, including those that are miles from highways and industry (ie. the center of Bed Stuy) and low in high income areas, even those right next to highways and industry. Nonethess, whenever someone gets asthma, its because someone did it to them.
I think the evidence supports the cockroach and pesticide theory myself. Lots of cumulative issues -- more dead roaches in the walls all the time, and long time residents have the longest exposure.
What years did this happen? Was the RR ever in a cut (after de-grading) south of 96? When was Park renamed from Fourth? Why was it named Park?
This is Pelham Parkway
The next stop on this Q train will be Gun Hill Road.
(When the line was depressed south of about 96th Street (and abandoned south of 42nd--not at the same time) the broad boulevard that was created (especially when the depressed line could be roofed over) became a desirable neighborhood.)
Dear Paul,
Thanks for the tip. I'm still trying to figure out when the line was depressed south of 96th st. And I had always assumed that the whole line had originally been elevated, and then the tracks had been cut and covered below 96th st.in one fell swoop, but your post seems to indicate otherwise. Was it originally elevated above 96th st. and in an open cut below 96th st., which was simply covered over when electric traction was invented? If so, why was it originally constructed above ground on the uptown side and below ground towards downtown? Was it simply a matter of topography/ground elevation?
Anybody know?
Thanks,
subgirl
Sub-girl:
The New York and Harlem Railroad was built over a five year period from 1832 to 1837 from Prince and Centre Streets to Harlem. The line was built as a surface railroad using horsecars south of 14 Street and Steam Locomotives north of that point. The line followed the route of Fourth Avenue which although it was provided for in the grid system of 1812, had not yet been made into a street because for the most part it was on a rocky ledge. Nevertheless the railroad built on it utilizing an open rock cut from 32 Street to 41 Street that we now know as the Park Avvenue Vehicular Tunnel and a bona fide rock tunnel from 87 Street to 96 Street which was called the Mount Prospect Tunnel. The railroad portal was at 96 Street although this was later moved to 97 Street. The RR then emerged onto a wooden trestle crossing the Harlem Creek and Marsh (aka the Harlem Flats) until reaching the area of 116 Street when the surface elevation rises and the RR entered an open cut. This elevation was known as Snake Hill.
In 1869 the first Grand Central Depot was built and in 1871 the railroad began lowering the track from 49 Street north to a depth of about 14 feet and widening the line to four tracks. This widening and the resultant green lawns planted above it caused the name of the street above to be changed to Park Avenue. The two additional tracks were added to the outside of the existing Mt Prospect Tunnel and this tunnel is the oldest one in New York City.
The wooden trestle north of 96 Street was replaced by a stone viaduct and elevated all the way to the Harlem River where the then low level bridge was raised and made into a four track swing bridge.
Returning to Harlem Creek this body of water still flows into the East River albeit underground and you can see the structure for it at the south end of the 96 St-Lexington Av Subway Station.
This depression in the surface of Manhattan,the so-called Harlem Flats (also known by other name) is the reason that the Lexington Av subway is on one level between 110 St and 103 St. Its not a case of the express tracks going up but of the local tracks going down to make common cause with the express and stay underground at the same time.I hope this answers at least part of your question.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Dear Larry,
Thank you for a breathtakingly informative post! Where do you get all this great
information?
Let me see if I've gotten my story straight:
The New York and Harlem Railroad was built 1832-1837 along Fourth Ave. from
Prince and Centre Streets to Harlem. It was a surface railroad using horsecars from City
Hall to 42nd St., and steam locomotives to the north. Though 4th Ave had been planned in
the grid system of 1812, the road hadn’t yet been built when the railroad was installed
because most of it was along a rocky ledge. The tracks were laid in an open rock cut from
32nd st. to 41st st. (now known as the Park Ave. Vehicular Tunnel) and a rock tunnel
from 87th st. to 96th st. (the Mount Prospect tunnel-the oldest tunnel in NYC). The
railroad portal was at 96th St., though it was later moved to 97th St. The RR then emerged
on a wooden trestle crossing the Harlem Creek and Marsh (AKA the Harlem Flats) untill
116th St. (Snake Hill), where the ground rose to meet the tracks in an open cut.
Sometime in the mid-19th century, the New York & Harlem RR became New York
Central. In 1869 the first Grand Central depot was built and in 1871 the Harlem RR
lowered its tracks 14 ft. underground north of 49th st. and widened the line to four tracks.
Green lawns were planted above the tracks as a result of the widening, and so the street
was renamed Park Ave. The wooden trestle above 96th was replaced by the stone viaduct
and elevated all the way to the Harlem river, where it crossed on a bridge.
Towards the end of the 19th century, there was much discussion in New York about
the need for a citywide rapid transit system. The Metropolitan Elevated Railway and N.Y.
Elevated Railway companies began planning elevated train lines to run along 2nd, 3rd, 6th
& 9th Ave’s. In anticipation of the impending elevated transit system, multitudes of new
law tenements were built on spec, replacing most empty land, single-family homes and
“french flats” that had been built in the 1860’s-70’s. By 1880, the 2nd & 3rd Ave. Els was
completed. In the late 1890’s, a swarm of Eastern European Jews migrated up to East
Harlem from the Lower East Side in search of better homes. Prosperous Russian Jews
displaced Germans, Italians and African Americans, earning the neighborhood the title
“Little Russia”. As for the Upper East Side, 5th Ave. was already filthy rich by this
point, Madison Ave. was fairly affluent, Park Ave. was poor, 2nd & 3rd Aves were
working class, and the river was lined with heavy industry.
From 1900-1904 the subway system was dug. In 1902, the year that the 3rd Ave. El
was electrified, a rear-end collision in the Park Ave. N.Y. Central tunnel caused by
obscured visibility from steam locomotives prompted state legislation prohibiting steam
operation in the tunnels. In 1906 the NY Central began operating on electricity, allowing
the depressed Park Ave. RR tracks to be covered over. After the tracks were covered
below 96th St. in the 1920’s, tenements on Park Ave. and mansions on 5th Ave. were
torn down and replaced by luxury buildings (1910-1940) untill Park Ave. was the
equivalent of 5th Ave. After WWII, 2nd & 3rd Ave. Els were torn down, 2nd Ave.
subway was promised and highrises sprang up below 96th St. in anticipation, and a
dramatic influx of Puerto Ricans established East Harlem as El Barrio. At this time, Robert
Moses was on a quest to build as much public housing as possible in New York City.
Under the Urban Renewal Act, land had to be proven to be “blighted” in order to be seized
for public housing. Since the Upper E. Side had been devoured by the private market, the
property values had skyrocketed. The only place where Moses could acquire land cheaply
enough to build as much public housing as he desired was above 96th St. in East Harlem.
And thus the 96th St. divide was born.
Last questions:
-Exactly when was the stone viaduct built?
-When were the tracks on Park Ave. covered: when they were dug 14 ft. underground in 1869? When electric traction was invented at the turn of the century? Or in the 1920's like I read somewhere?
-Were those green lawns that earned Park Ave. its name planted directly above the tracks, i.e. where the flowered median strips now decorate the center of Park Ave.? If not, then where?
-What ever happened to the 96th St.portal?
-When did NY & Harlem RR become NY Central become Metro-North?
If you don't know the answers to these questions offhand, could you please point me
towards your sources so I could find out for myself? It's trifling rail trivia, but I need to
know. Thank you so much.
Best,
Subgirl
divisioniii@hotmail.com
Aside from the post-1900 stuff, that's more than even I know. Perhaps that PBS show on TV this week will answer your question. East Harlem was far from the only place Robert Moses could build public housing -- it was the only place in that area. Public housing was built all over the city. The biggest concentration is in Coney Island.
(East Harlem was far from the only place Robert Moses could build public housing -- it was the only place in that area. Public housing was built all over the city.The biggest concentration is in Coney Island. )
yeah, I know, I was just having tunnel-vision for a second there. you obsess over one place long enough, you start believing it's the whole world.
subgirl
NY&Harlem was bought by the NY Central in the late 19th Century. The NYC merged with the Pennsylvania RR in 1968 to create Penn Central, 1976, PC was replaced by ConRail due to bankrupcy, which then was owned by the Feds and finally, MNCR was created in 1983 for direct control of the commuter RR service by the MTA. Previously, they had indirect control, they bought rolling stock for example.
P.S. There were stations on the local tracks on 59th, 72th, and 79th and were closed shortly after the Third Avenue line opened.
Subgirl:
On November 15,1869 construction began on the first "Grand Central" which was called "Grand Central Depot." From 1871 to 1874 the tracks from 49 Street north to 96 Street were lowered about 14 feet and covered by the present day Park Avenue. At the same time the stone viaduct replaced the earlier wooden trestle from 96 Street north to the Harlem River Bridge. The tunnel was extended to 97 Street in the 1940's.
Construction of the present day "Grand Central Terminal " began in 1903 and continued for 10 years. It involved building a lower level and electrifying the line. Electric trains started running from Grand Central to Highbridge on September 30,1906.
The New York and Harlem Railroad was chartered on April 25,1831 and was leased to the New York Central and Hudson River Railroad on April 1,1873. The NYC & HRRR became the New York Central Railroad on July 20,1914. The NYCRR and the Pennsylvania Railroad merged on February 1,1968 to become the Pennsylvania-New York Central Transportation Company later shortened to the Penn Central Transportation Company.
On May 26,1972 the Metropolitan Transportation Authority assumed financial responsibility for the suburban services but Penn Central continued to operate the trains under a "purchase of service" contract. On April 1,1976 the Consolidated Rail Corporation aka Conrail took over the operation of the trains under contract for the MTA. The Metro-North Commuter Railroad was formed on September 16,1982 and took over operation of the trains on January 1,1983.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What route did the trains take from Prince and Centre and how did Madison Square fit into all this (I heard P.T. Barnum converted the old NY&H term at MS into MSG #1).
I was in NY early in October and rode the one line as well as Park Avenue and I wonder if the environment around these areas may be due to the lower lying land - you mentioned better quality housing on the heights - well there are no 'heights' around northern Park Ave but look at the buildings west of the one line from about 125th northwards, even up into the Bronx (eg, Riverdale) with the views of the river.
Another item: ever heard of the saying 'coming from the other side of the tracks' implying the railroad and tracks and grade crossings create a physical barrier which is difficult to cross and it is nicer not to be on the other side.
I have not been on the M line since Junior High School and I believe that at the Central Ave station the exit is not at Central Ave..... I think viewed this observation while on the B38 bus at Dekalb and Myrtle.
1. Is the exit near Dekalb Ave?
2. Is it true that the reason that the station was not called Dekalb Av was because the M already stop at a Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn?
Someone clarify this info????????
3TM
14St. Transfer available to the L on the opposite platform making local stops to Canarsie, Bklyn. The K and L across the platform for 23 and 28Sts. The M14 on the upper level. The next express stop will be 34St-Javits Ctr. Transfer available to the M34 on the upper level. Stand Clear of the closing doors........
The original Central Avenue Station was rebuilt from a single island platform to two outside platforms and was moved a little further south to replace the Evergreen Avenue Station which was abandoned on September 17,1915 as part of the construction of the junction with the Broadway El. Central Avenue Station was rebuilt centered between Evergreen and Central Avenues in order to replace both the older stations.
Larry,RedbirdR33
>Is it true that the reason that the station was not called Dekalb Av was because the M already stop at a Dekalb Ave in Brooklyn?
When that station was built DeKalb wasn't even connected to the line, (unless you took the Manhattan Bridge to Chambers, then reversed direction to head to Metropolitan. And no regular service did this).
The CTA Announced today they have sold the Park-n-ride Lot at Howard St. as the first step in the Renovation project with the Gateway transit mall.
I don't want to violate any copyright laws, so go to:
yourcta.com, news, published articles, and CTA Board Approves sale of land near Howard Terminal.
This is just the begining, but the Gateway Transit Mall is under-construction, I saw it this summer while waiting for a train at Howard. And if the CTA sold the Park-n-ride lot they must continue the project unless they want no park-n-ride lot at Howard which I don't think is the case.
Anyway, what do you think???
BJ
The CTA proposed project is outrageous. There's no way $39 million can be of benefit at ONE location. Actually, if the CTA just cleaned up the old station and replaced the bus turnaround (including a warming house), the old station would be just fine.
CTA has a major problem of spending too much money in just one location.
-Jake
I personally think that if a station is going to be renovated correctly, then all the money needed should be spent. However the CTA does go way over board with costs, but what would ya think, they are a government agency!
The new Chicago/State subway station is going through a complete turn around currently under it's year and approx 3 month renovation. I can't belive it takes that long to renovate the station, but hadicapped accessibility with Elevators is being put it and the whole station is being expanded to accomodate the riders.
BJ
PS: Jacob, are you from Chicago or the 'burbs. Just curious. I'm from Westmont which is just far enough away from Chicago to really suck, granite we have a Metra Station and Express service is pretty cool during weekdays from the Downers Grove Main St. Station.
I've returned from my (slightly-extended) stay in Winchester VA. Got in this afternoon at about 1:30 - did the trip in just about six hours flat. Anyway - I didn't have web access due to the fact that the Handley Library was closed for renovations (due to open later in the year). But I DID get away to Washington on October 11 and 12, taking my Dad in tow, and doing a total of about twelve hours riding (plus 144 pictures) over the two days. There will be many additional pictures for the DC Metro Page as we completed the stations we missed the first go around (August 27-28, 1998). There will also be some changes to some of the station descriptions/narratives, as we discovered things as we went. It's nice to be able to ride the Green Line from Greenbelt to Anacostia without having to change trains at Fort Totten. The two new stations are quite impressive. Here are some of my findings:
* Columbia Heights has a flattened, oval vault, with the new-style six-piece Arch II ceiling. It certainly looks like it wanted to be a waffle ceiling when it started out.
* REALLY TIGHT curve just north of Columbia Heights. Tunnel is fully illuminated for a considerable stretch through the area, like I have seen in pictures of the Los Angeles Metro.
* Georgia/Petworth is almost the same station as Glenmont and Mt.Vernon Square-UDC. Higher, rounded ceiling vault. Switch is south of the station.
* ATO is OUT in most areas. Max speed between Georgia/Petworth and Fort Totten was a sedate 45 MPH under manual control.
* Some stations have grown surnames: Vienna/Fairfax-GMU (will they EVER stop with the college names???); Dunn Loring/Merrifield; West Falls Church-VT/UVA (MORE colleges! - this is getting out of hand); Woodley Park-Zoo/Adams-Morgan (this looks RIDICULOUS on the pylons).
Next thing you know we're going to see stuff like "Eastern Market-PS 15" and "Capitol Heights-(somebody's) Middle School".
* The Gov't has appropriated design funding in the amount of 4.5M dollars for design to move forward on extending the Blue Line past Addison Road, to Summerfield (what, no college?) and Largo Town Center. They should have it open by 2005.
* Green Line to Branch Avenue is on or just ahead of schedule, construction-wise, according to one Metro person. They were looking at late 2001, now it may be Summer of 2001. Keep fingers crossed.
* Saw major groundwater damage at Mt.Vernon Square-UDC. It has infiltrated the ceiling and walls and has damaged the entrance pod. They're working on fixing that. How they're going to fix the walls is beyond me.
* Cute little fare-control area at Tenleytown-AU. You go down the elevator and you're at the south end of the platform. There's this one lonely little faregate there (with a bus transfer dispenser and an Addfare machine too). It's the only one I've ever seen at platform level. There's a standard entrance/exit pod in the middle of the station.
* Half the station sidewall lights are out at Pentagon and Foggy Bottom-GWU, making picture-taking VERY difficult.
* Didn't see many ROHR cars out on the road; only ones I saw were on the Red Line, where the 3000 Breda's had held fort for so long. Perhaps they're in for GOH; they're 23 years young. Rohr #1114-1115 have been turned into work motors.
Anyway, had a good time, if my car didn't act up on me. Distributor pick-up and module shorted out Saturday night as I was leaving to gas up.
Wayne
[ I've returned from my (slightly-extended) stay in Winchester VA. ... I didn't have web access due to the fact that the Handley Library was closed for renovations (due to open later in the year). ]
Visited Winchester, eh? I grew up in Front Royal, just a few miles down the road. I took my SATs and performed on the stage at Handley High when I was younger. Small world...
I can't wait to visit the folks again so I can see the new Green Line stations on my way home. Last time I visited the stations were about 10 days from opening. The timing was dissapointing, but riding the Metro is a joy any day.
One thing that surprised me was the amount of new construction going up around Winchester, especially on the outskirts of town. It's becoming quite a little city.
We went down to Culpeper on Saturday and on the way back stopped in Front Royal to photograph some of the vintage street lights - the OV-20s, Form 109s and Form 400s on Royal Avenue and the Gum Ball bracket lights on Chester Street. Not every day you see these.
I should have the pictures (at least of the new stations) scanned and up on the Metro Page by the weekend at least.
Wayne
Gosh, didn't kow anyone else knew about Winchester, Virginia.
I used to live there in 1981-1982 (on what is now Maloy Road on the far east side of town).
The street name doesn't ring a bell - my folks live on the northside off of Pennsylvania Avenue. CSX trains go by to their east all of the time. Sunday morning a n/b CSX freight was held up by two wayward hoppers from the Winchester & Western (Weak & Weary). I watched as engine #2206 nosed them onto a siding. They reset the switch and the 118-car freight (with four engines hauling it) continued northbound.
It was a classic train, full of various box cars, hoppers and tankers.
It even had a caboose!
On Monday, a freight paid the apple plant near Route 522 a visit, a rarity. This train had six box cars and an engine at either end, one a CSX engine and the other a W&W.
Wayne
I have family in Berryville Va, I have been to Winchester 4 times in the past 3 years and have fallin in love with the Area, and I hope by 2001 to move thereabouts. I already have 2 Job offers in Herndon, and will not mind traveling on Va 7. I have been on worse roads and worse traffic. My wife s cousins who live there just put a bid on a small farmette off of 7 between Winchester and Berryville, and hopefully if all is well, we will go in with them. In fact I am wearing my Virginia is For Lovers Winchester T Shirt right now
The F was moving at a crawl this morning. At BWay Lafayette I transferred to a D and then passed _3_ F's, and a _Q_running local, what the heck was going on?
Dave
Sick passanger on a Q train at W4 caused all B, D and Q trains to share the local track from B'way Laffayete to W4th St.
There was a sick customer at W4th St. At almost the same time an A train stalled south of 125th St. with electrical problems. This further backed up the Bs & Ds on 6th Avenue.
Sunday evening around 6:30 4 R-68's from the N line were run on the F/S. Both tracks were tested including the infamous track one all the way from the curve and into the station.
Boston Green Line Type-7 trolley now sports a "shrink-wrap" ad for AMTRAK ACELA service. I didn't get a good look at it, but from a distance it seems to resemble the wall posters hanging up in South Station.
I forgot to mention in my original post - the "ACELA" Type-7 trolley number is 3660.
They have also wraped at least one of the buses at our depot. And like you I didn't get a good enough look at it to provide addl. detail.
Mr t__:^)
If anyone knows anything at all about a man hit by a train in Katonah earlier this month, please email me with whatever you do know at my email - davew1010@att.net
It's possible this man was on the tracks - possibly on foot or maybe in a car. I'm not sure. I'm trying to find out what I can for old friends of his.
Thanks in advance for your help.
While you are at it, you can find out what you can do for the engineer who hit him as well. Or what you can do for the T/O on the southbound B at 125 this afternoon after she had a 12-9. She went into shock as well. I feel for anyone who is hit by a train but please bear in mind that the train crew will suffer for a lifetime.
I understand very well that the engineer or motorman in the event of an accident is in a terrible position and that many suffer for years over the outcome of accidents. I would do anything I could to help them as well.
In this case, I know friends of the person who was hit and they've asked me to find out what I can about how all this happened. I'd like to do that so I can put their minds at ease.
Today, I saw an acela ad at the bus shelter at the L2 stop on Conneticut Avenue and McKinley Street in DC. It only said life on acela and had a picture of a fishbowl with one plant, no fish, and a few bubbles. WHAT ON EARTH IS AMTRAK TRYING TO TELL YOU ABOUT ACELA??? If the current ads are still around when it debuts, there wont be much more ridership until people read their papers and find out how good it is.
Have you seen the ads they show in movie theatres? They are just plain confusing. They show bussiness type people doing odd things in public I think because their life is now stress free or something. However in no way do they connect these strange people with a train or rail travel. After you see each person they flash ACELA and at the end the flash Amtrak, but its like only for about 1/2 a second and sometimes it gets cut off completely. The only these things do is confuse people. As my friend was heard to remark, "What the hell was that about?" Due to the crummyness ads I was too embarrassed to tell him because at that moment I did not want to affiliate myself with Amtrak in any way whatsoever.
10/19/99
Judging by the kooky Acela ads as of late,if they keep advertising in this manner,those Acela trains will be empty. C'mon Slamtrak,you gotta send a message to people to ride these new trains in droves,not leave them scratching their heads.
Bill Newkirk
The message that would do it for me is 1 1/2 hours to Hartford, 20 bucks.
Acela is cute, unfortunetly, it does nothing to help me because I live along a stub off the NEC.
Actually, it hurts me because a number (about half) of the trains here are Boston bound ones on the inland route. I doubt they'll do that anymore after acela gets going.
As far as advertising, I'm guessing amtrak will figure it out they waty Apple figured out their first "think different" ads really didn't work. Spinning iMacs set to music sell, b&w photos of fairly unknown people don't.
BTW - there's an acela seat in New Haven station, in a display. Last metro-North engineer I talked to says that the set has been hanging out there recently, though I've heard it's back down in Philly. Bombardier is supposed to announce november 1st or so what the deal with it is.
I hadn't noticed the train was gone, but it's still in the yard.
Actually, it hurts me because a number (about half) of the trains here are Boston bound ones on the inland route.
There is only supposed to be 1 train/day that runs through between NY and Boston on the Inland Route. There are a couple more right now for construction, but certainly not half. Most originate/terminate in Springfield. I think permanently adding more trains between Springfield and Boston would mean getting CSX to agree to it. The biggest negative of Acela w.r.t. Springfield service is that they might stop switching the Springfield cars on/off the Boston trains (now that they don't need to take the time to switch engines anymore), so a cross-platform transfer would be required.
The ads are mostly very weird. They make some sense if you figure them out (more than just getting from A to B for those ads with "ASMILEB" etc., person on the street looking for an outlet implying at-seat outlets on the train for laptops), but I'd rather they tout benefits outright rather than going for this new-age "Life on Acela" campaign. I've seen ads on the outside of buses in NY and Boston that actually depict the train itself, though no specific benefits are mentioned.
Somehow or the other, though, the ads work! I was on the Delta Shuttle just yesterday for a same-day round-trip between LGA and BOS and the people in the seats in front of me were discussing Acela and how they're looking forward to not having to take cabs all the way out the the airport. Very promising, it's the very people Amtrak wants to attract, talking about Acela while sitting on the air shuttle! Furthermore, a great deal of my friends who don't have any interest in trains per se seem to know about Acela even when I've never mentioned it to them. Who knows, if Amtrak could actually get them up and running, they might do pretty well...
That's Marketing 101 ... i.e. "Where's the Beef ?" and other stupid adv are what folks remember. The trick is to get them to remember what the product/service is.
So if folks know something is new about inter-city train travel and are willing to try it ONE MORE TIME, then Amtrak gets one more chance to attract new customers.
But then if they find the same old late dirty trains it will have been a big waste of money.
Mr t__:^)
Reminds me of the original Infiniti TV ad campaign - where for months,
all you saw was a nature scene. No car, no road, nothing.
And what about those wonderful Acela ads they've placed on trains?
(In Philly, anyways.) The ones with A{word}B? I was riding the train
home one night, groggy as all hell, and got more and more annoyed
at it until I realized there was a word between the A and B. (It
had been a loooooong day. :) Still, some people will just look at
it, read ainaneb and not even worry about what it's trying to say. Way
to go with $$$, Amtrak - just think of all the good that ad campaign
money could have done nycsubway.org! :) (Low-V fantrip, anyone?)
If they can do it with tghe san Diego Trains, they can do it with Acalas. Give them a chance
When do the R142 cars arrive?
Hope to get to NYC when they do.
This is the 6 train to Brooklyn Bridge. Next Stop is 68th Street. Stand in, stand clear
Hi, Gang,
About 3:35 this afternoon, I saw the following consist on the northbound Brighton express track, passing through Kings Highway:
A pair of R-38s, S1, and a pair of R-32s (3882-3?). What in blazes is S1? It was painted in safety yellow. Could it be VakTrak?
David
That is an R-74 Signal Supply Car of which there are two,S01 and S02 built by Fuji Heavy Industries in 1984.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Why didn't you say Hello to the T/O. He is railfan friendly :-)
Lucky guy! I gotta let you know when I intend to go on another field trip and hopefully hook up with you.
--Mark
I noticed that too riding a N rain through to Coney Island. What is the function of this strange looking car?
That's interesting because normally S1 is accompanied by the older R22 (IRT) work horses in yellow paint. To have an R32 and 38 in the set sounds like more work motors are being disposed of.
-Stef
Yes Harold points out that the Motorman is railfan friendly, but fails to point out that it's HIM.
The reason the R-22's aren't there as usual is they are out of service to be painted. They will return shortly.
The sigal dollies are used to transport and spot equipment such as switch motors or signal relay boxes. Occasionally to pick up other materiels of signal department as well.
The other one 02 is being worked on at Coney Island Overhaul.
I'm sure Harold is enjoying the extra power those GE R-32's are providing.
I'm sure Harold wouldn't know this one, but it looks like one of the garbage crews on the IRT has more to do coming out of 239th St Yard in the Bronx. One of those so called "Regular Work Trains" now carries 4 refuse flats instead of the usual three.
-Stef
Saw the article in today's Daily News about a group of residents/homeowners along the Van Wyck filing suit against the Port Authority's planned monorial link to JFK.
While I object to the Port Authority's plan because it fails to provide a one-seat ride to anywhere (the city or Long Island)by Jamaica and can never be absorbed into the LIRR or NYCTA system, the reasons given for the suit in the News are the standard NIMBY protests that would keep any line -- Second Ave., LaGuardia, anywhere -- from being built, since the complaint is it would disrupt traffic for five or six years.
Any new line is going to disrupt traffic for a time, so while I would like to see the monorail plan shot down in favor of something more practical, I'm afraid if they win this suit, it will be the green light for NIMBY's everywhere to block any type of future expansion.
Any other opinions?
Is there any way we can arange for "our" NIMBYs to counteract "their" NIMBYs? Can we get them to cancel each other out? More importantly, is any dirt being moved yet for the on-airport part of the project, which would be a part of whatever gets built?
Yes. Work has begun in the parking lot closest to the Howard Beach station on the A train. There wasn't a lot done when I was there in March; I assume that more has transpired since then.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No they don't cancel each other out. This group says it is in favor of a one-seat ride on the Rockaway line, but they are not, they are just saying so. Meanwhile, the other NIMBYs block the Rockaway line. I say build both.
No, make concessions. We'll give you this, if we build that here.
This is 14 Street-Stuyvesant Square, change for the L, Y and W local trains
The next stop on this V EXPRESS train will be 42 Street-United Nations, change there for the 4, 5, 6, 7 and S trains
It's NOT a MONORAIL!!!!
It's an 'ALRT', a system nearly identical to Vancouver's Sky Train, which uses Linear Induction tecnology.
-Hank
Earth to SubTalk. Earth to SubTalk.
Nowadays, when NIMBYs (or anyone else) stop something it is never in favor of anything else.
They may stop the Van Wyck plan, and that might be good or bad, but that won't get anythig else bulit.
Same as on 2nd Avenue.
No, they are not good NIMBYs. There was a review process, an EIS, and a vote. Democracy has spoken. People suing after such a process mock the whole thing.
I'd like to see a counter-suit to stop this nonsense. These folks aren't suing because of whatever reason they say they are. It's just an attempt to hold the rest of the city for ransom by delaying the project. I'd like to seem the same measures taken against other NIMBYs.
There was a review process, an EIS, and a vote. Democracy has spoken. People suing after such a process mock the whole thing.
Larry, I agree.
But this is how its done, these days. You make your position known, you go through the politicial process, you negotiate with people who think the negotiation is in good faith, then if you lose, you sue.
Suing is considered "part of the process," and keep things spinning for years. But, as I was trying to say, these tactics see to it not that what you want is built, but that nothing is built.
All of you people knocking people who want to protect their own neighborhoods and property values. How many of you own their own home. If they decided to put an el, subway, or nuclear power plant down my street with construction inconvenience for about 10 years I would fight it tooth and nail!!!! And if you want, you can call me the media-made-up word-NIMBY
Down my street? How about in the middle of a highway? Sure, I don't blame those who moved in before the Van Wyck was built for being upset about it, but how many of those are there? These are people who moved next to a highway. In the end, the amount of noise, pollution, etc. they experience will be the same after the AirTrain is built as before.
Certainly total indifference to local concerns is not fair, but we have in place a procedural and legal environment that goes to the other extreme. And the tolerance of this sort of thing is excessive.
Hey, they hopld public hearings, make multiple Environmental Impact Statments, and vote on every one of these things. But if no one shows up at these hearings, then they have NO RIGHT to argue against the project once it's approved.
-Hank
"What do you mean you've never been to Alpha Centauri?"
-Vogon Constructor Fleet Captain
(Am I remembering this right?)
If NIMBYS spent their lawyer money on maintaining and improving their properties, they'd be money ahead.
Could you please explain what NIMBYS means? I can't quite get it.
Chuck Greene
Not In My Back Yard.
Here, we generaly apply that term to people(usually rich/upper middle-class, suburban/nice neighborhood and/or white) who don't want things like subway/road/rail construction because of various reasons, most often neighborhood disruption and the whole situation of allowing "undesirables"(people of some type of different backgorund) access to "their" neighborhoods.
NIMBYism is the state of being NIMBY, and NIMBYs are generally not talked about appreciatively here.
NIMBY example-Extending the 4th Avenue BMT into Staten Island's neighborhoods, subway extension into Eastern Queens enclaves, 2AS, etc.
As in, the natives don't want them to allow the poor/ethnic into their nieghborhoods or just don't want the projects there.
Thank you for the explanation! Appreciate it and agree with you, do what you want, but Not In My Back Yard!
Chuck Greene
I guess a "good NIMBY" would be one that proposed a reasonable alternative other than just saying no, and could reasonably demonstrate that they are already relatively overburdened by facilities with regional benefits and community liabilities. Or one willing to negotiate reasonable compensation and mitigation for the benefits they bear.
But the system is set up so that ONE ASSHOLE CAN STOP ANYTHING. For example, there is this NIMBY nut in south Park Slope. A developer proposed an as-of-right, complies with zoning, unsubsidized development for the banks of the Gowanus Canal. It would be the first substantial investment in this run down area in 50 years. Despite the usual NIMBY concerns (ie. traffic consisting of outsiders), everyone from the councilmember to the community board endorsed the plan. They endorse every as-of-right plan, since they can't stop it and are therefore in no position to demand extortion. Even the "community group" this guy heads endorsed the project.
So he just decided to sue on his own. He was later joined by a rival developer (Forest City) that wants a monopoly on new commercial space in Brooklyn, and city subsidies to make it happen. The project has stalled.
In some cases, the only good NIMBY is an IMBY. (In My Back Yard) And for projects like the 2AV subway, it seems to me that the IMBYs would be coming from people who ride the Lex every day and are stuck in the notorious crowds and the NIMBYs coming from rich people who may lose a few million dollars from the construction even if they have many million dollars. I'd sure hope that for a project like this the IMBYs would win. But some NIMBYs are good, especially when the project is bad.
Unfortunately, too many NIMBY's become BANANA's (i.e. Build Absolutely Nothing Anywhere Near Anyone). When this happens, the next cry is usually that they can't get anywhere because everything's overused, congested, worn out/undermaintained, or the operating agency is incompetent.
Wow! A new meaning for someone gone Bananas.
This 174 Street
The next stop on this Q train will be 180 Street, change there for the 2 and 5.
10/21/99
Remember years ago when this country and this city had a "can do" ethic? For the sake of the city and citizens great projects were carried out and completed without NIMBY's,enviromental impact statements and just plain politics. Have we really progressed ??
Bill Newkirk
There is such a thing as a good NIMBY: a dead NIMBY.
Other than this forum, I've never heard of NIMBY used as a noun to describe a person. Usually its used to describe the concept of "Not In My Backyard" But since this forum uses it as a noun I will do so also. I Nimby is just someone trying to protect his neighborhood and property values. There are certainly good NIMBY's. If the following things were proposed to be built next to my house I would fight it tooth and nail and thus be labeled a Nimby:a methadone center a drug rehab a topless bar (my wife reads my postings so I had to say that) MacDonald's or Burger King (No better than drug dealers, just ask any cardiologist!! porn place a prisoner's halfway house Gracie Mansion as long as you know who still lives there!!a landfill (guess that means I could never live in S.I.)O.T.B.Etc, etc, etc....
the SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
a SICK & SHOCKING news article!!!
Try my OUTRAGEOUS color quiz!!!
Lets make a distinction. Some of those fighting porn places and topless bars would be happy if they were nowhere. Those fighting mass transit and road improvements, social services, and businesses, on the other hand, know they have to be somewhere, and just want them to burden somewhere else. As I said, the only good NIMBY is one who can point to an existing excess burden.
Those who are not so burdened, and who are notheless determined to avoid all burden themselves, must accept that they are not just fighting City Hall, they are making them selves the enemy of everyone else in the city, and (in the case of public works with long term benefits) all future residents as well. Its time that the rest of us understand that.
I grew up in the city, so I know the origin of a lot of NIMBYism, and if you look at most of my posts (maybe moreso in nyc.transit) I don't shrug off NIMBY concerns.
For one thing, we are coming off the Robert Moses-era, in which some aparatchik could draw a line on a map, in front of your house, or on your front lawn, or through your house, and there wasn't much you could do about it.
With the NYS DOT, this is still largely true.
Moreover, people have gotten used to the concept that the government lies. I know this is a shock to most people.
Once you've had a few projects built near you that were supposed to have "no impact," "minimal impact," "actually beneficial to the neighborhood impact" and see how they turned out, people think it is best to just veto everything.
I recall one particular project, not in my neighborhood, which was supposed to be a group home for little parentless children. By "little," the neighbors were told like pre-school or first or second grade. Anyone who still opposed this was made to feel like a heartless drip.
For the first six months or so, the home contained kids 6 or 7 or less. Than one day it began to fill with teenagers. Teenagers are not the least popular residents of any neighborhood, no less a house full of rootless ones.
When the neighbors complained that they were betrayed, the City responded that they never guaranteed it would only be little kids, that they needed the space for these teenagers, and told the neighbors once again that they were heartless drips.
To me, this is the heart of understanable NIMBYism.
In the case of the Van Wyck thing, I was referring to habits of pressure groups who find they can obstruct almost anything by lining up some local people. Their motives may not be true NIMBYism, but the desire to obstruct, or because they have the fantasy that if they block one project, another more suitable to them will be built instead.
As I rode the Franklin Ave Shuttle North into its terminus, noting the GT signs as we approached the end of the line -- the last with a 5 MPH limit, I couldn't help realize that some designer was a little bit nervous about the track dead-ending in the middle of the air. Makes one wonder how fast the train would have to be going to knock the buffer clean off its mounts and clear across Fulton Street.
Now, we all know that the system is designed with safety devices that would make this impossible, but just suppose that there was a malfunction . . . Picture a train popping the buffer right off the end of the track and, say, 40%-50% of an R68 hanging in mid-air, while a TA bus goes through a store window on Fulton Street after its driver loses control due to the buffer crashing through his windshield.
Did the shuttle always creep so slowly into its Northern terminus? Is it that dangerous a situation, or are the T/Os just spooked because they aren't used to the location?
>Now, we all know that the system is designed with safety devices that
>would make this impossible...
Less possible. Nothing is "impossible".
How much force can a buffer take and still do whatever it's suposed to do (buff?)
As far as comming in slowly - it's not such a bad idea. And it certainly beats a subway car hanging off the end of an elevated. I'm assuming if it's going slow enough, and it hits the buffer, then it won't throw the buffer, end up in the air, and make the news.
Chances are a BMT standard would knock the buffer off and never know it hit anything. An R-68, well, hard to say...
>Chances are a BMT standard would knock the buffer off and never know it hit anything. An R-68, well, hard to say...
I don't think R-68s can go fast enough to do that... *duck* :)
That too.
I think a one-legged, 80 year-old man with smoker's lungs can overtake an R-68 ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
This really happened with an AB standard going past the end of the station at Jamaica/168th St, I think in the late '60s). 1/2 the car was resting in the air.
--Mark
I think the Jamaica el mishap happened a lot earlier than that -- possibly in the 20's.
[This really happened with an AB standard going past the end of the station at Jamaica/168th St, I think in the late '60s). 1/2 the
car was resting in the air.]
It also happened at the East New York yards. There's a picture of the mishap somewhere on this site.
anybody know where? Dave?
Thanx
Tom
There was a power failure in the Jay Street-Boro Hall station mid-afternoon on Monday. No signals. No station lights except a few incandescent bulbs that went on when the power went off (obviously a battery backup system). The traction power remained on. Power came back after 3-5 minutes. Anyone know what caused it?
Problems with a Con Ed feeder cable.
No station lights except a few incandescent bulbs that went on when the power went off (obviously a battery backup system).
Nope. Those are the original station lights which are connected
in strings of 5 from the third rail. Somewhere in the station
you'll see a little box with a handle on top mounted to the
protection board. You'll notice that there is a wire clamped
to the contact rail which enters the box. The box contains a
fuse mounted on a block which can be pulled with the handle. From
there you'll see the wire enter another box nearby. This box
contains a relay which is energized by the normal (AC) lighting
power. If that should fail, the relay drops and the 600 volt
juice is connected to the emergency lights.
Very clever. They've turned the old lights into emergency backup lighting by hooking them into the 3rd rail, not batteries as I had assumed. Does that meen the bulbs run on 600 volts instead of the 110-120 volts we are used to in the home? Or is there a step-down transformer in the circuit? If they run on 600 volts now, I wonder if they always did, even when they were the primary lighting in the station. In any event, this certainly answers the question I have had in mind for quite a while as to why the old lights were not removed when the fluorescents were installed.
Thanks for the info.
They do neither. They run on 120 volts because they are connected in series.
This is 3 Avenue, change for the V
The next stop on this Q train will be Brook Avenue
Sorry for double posting
NO, no announcements this message.
They do neither. They run on 120 volts because they are connected in series, a subway series if you will.
This is 3 Avenue, change for the V
The next stop on this Q train will be Brook Avenue
Many stations have new incandescent lights as part of the fluorescents- usually at one end of the fixture and have five bulbs in them- are these also DC?
3rd rail, not batteries as I had assumed. Does that meen the bulbs run on 600 volts instead of the
110-120 volts we are used to in the home? Or is there a step-down transformer in the circuit? If they
The bulbs are rated for 130 volts, DC, "rough service". They
are always wired five in series for a nominal voltage of 650
volts DC across the string, which is the third rail voltage.
You can use 120 volt household bulbs but their filaments are not
designed to break a DC arc. They have a tendency to explode rather
than burn out, which clearly isn't desirable.
FWIW, you can't use a transformer to step-down DC.
Were the interior lights in the "Standards" wired in series too? It always seem to me that when there was a light out in the car, there were a number of lights out. Was this just poor maintenance or did one bulb burning out put out a total of five lights?
When you wire in series, one bulb out means they all go out. I've been told the old-fashioned Christmas tree lights were wired that way (not that I would know from experience, since the only lights in our house in December were on a menorah).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Aren't they still this way because of current/potential reasons? (I wouldn't have any experience either).
This is Brook Avenue
The next stop on this Q train will be Cypress Avenue.
No. The mini-bulbs are 120v, and are wired in parallel. Makes it easier to find which ones are out, unless (like my Catholic son-in-law did one year) you put blinker bulbs in ALL the sockets instead of just the first one. But then even he will admit to being somewhat of a dimbulb at times :-) Good husband, good daddy, good son-in-law, NOT an electrician!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmm, how do they lower the voltage then?
This is St. Mary's Street
The next stop on this Q train will be Prospect Avenue
They don't. The bulbs are 120 volts, very low wattage and amperage.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But how do they use a 600 volt circuit then?
This is Hunts Point Avenue, change for the V
The next stop on this Q train will be East 174 Street
5 130v bulbs in _SERIES_ = 5x130 = 650volts across ALL IN A LINE
5 130v bulbs in _PARALLEL_ = 130volts across EACH ONE
Picture the filaments all one end connected to the other, with the two outermost ends connected to the 650vdc, each light bulb drops the voltage 130 volts
Interesting about the Rough Service rating, I've often wondered about dc and standard bulbs...
Dave (Who's wired like five million speakers in various series-parallel combinations, and fried my brain doing it)
My IND sign box uses the same principle. The upper and lower destination signs were illuminated by two bulbs apiece, and both bulbs for each sign were wired in series. All conduits and sockets for the lower sign are still intact; I had to use 75-watt bulbs to get sufficient illumination. There is no hardware for the upper sign; on most R-1/9s, the sockets were attached to the car itself and not the box. I say most R-1/9s because there was a sign box on display at Shore Line's sign shop which had light sockets for the upper sign attached to the box. I asked Eddie about that at the time, and he said some cars came with the sockets attached. He said he would try to find some upper sign hardware and I gave him my address, but never heard anything. No big deal.
P. S. I used an outlet strip for upper sign illumination, and plugged a couple of bulb sockets into it, aligning them with the holes in the top of the box. Get this: 15-watt bulbs provide plenty of illumination.
I know, you don't have to explain this to me, I know as well as anyone. Anon_e_mouse said the bulbs were in parallel. How could these 120V bulbs use 600VDC in parallel?
This is 180 Street, change for the 2 and 5
The next stop on this Q train will be Morris Park.
They can't. We got to discussing tree lights as well as subway lights, we didn't get specific enough as to which we were referring, and got confused. Dave's explanation is correct. The 120v lamps in parallel I was talking about are certain tree lights. On another portion of this thread one of the posters brings up still another kind of light string - mixed series and parallel - that REALLY confuses the issue.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, somewhere along the line we confused Christmas tree bulbs and the DC subway bulbs. Yes, the five DC bulbs are 130 volts, wired in series, powered from 650 volts. One goes out, all goes out. According to Karl B, old-fashioned Christmas tree bulbs - 8 bulbs, 15 volts each, powered from 120 volts - are done the same way. Modern Christmas tree wiring uses 120 volt low-wattage bulbs, wired in parallel, so that each bulb is independent of the others.
Sorry for the confusion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So, to clarify,
If I an HO model subway train that I got for Christmas, and it had eight cars, each running off 15volts on a third rail, and the cars were somehow wired all in series, I could run it off 120vdc, or if I had FIVE of these trains, I could run them off the tracks on 42nd street.
-IF they were "rough duty" rated
;-)
Correct! (Mr. Hatch - my seventh-grade electrical shop teacher - would be so proud of me! 'Course, I'm not going to admit how long ago thatwas...)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I an HO model subway train that I got for Christmas, and it had eight cars, each running off 15volts
on a third rail, and the cars were somehow wired all in series, I could run it off 120vdc, or if I had
FIVE of these trains, I could run them off the tracks on 42nd street.
Of course that's a tongue-in-cheek question, but the answer is NO.
Coming back around to the xmas lights issue, I know someone who
once tried to wire strings of xmas lights to the 600 V. The
insulation is not rated to withstand 600V to ground, and you have
that at the head end of the series chain. Oooops.
You're right on both counts.
Maybe with O or G gauge, you could adapt to insulate for the HiV.
Sure you could. However i doubt the UL labratories would allow such a train to be sold, since just a glacing touch of that third rail would result in electrocution.
Don't be surprised about it. UL used to allow "hot chassis" radios to be sold where one end of the power line was hooked to the metal chassis. Without polarized plugs. They even had TVs in the 50's like this. Amazingly dangerous. But it was cheap, so companies did it. I'd say about 90% of the tube radios you see at garage sales are of this design. Mostly small plastic sets. The most reliable tip off to such a set is light weight and / or AC/DC operation.
Ironically, older / higher quality sets are safer, even though the insides operate at much higher voltages (200 - 500V), because they have a transformer, which isolates the set, and the chassis, from the power line. It's hard to get a shock from such a set, because you need to touch both the chassis AND a HV lead.
(I've reapaired a number of radios / jukeboxes / TVs before. lots of fun)
I'm not sure if Lionel "transformers" provided line isolation or not. Even so, ever get zapped by a ZW? :)
A lot of "portable" tube radios were wired with a hot chassis.
Strings of 10 tubes, each with 12 volt filaments. I have a 1961
Zenith TV with a hot chassis, but it has a 6.3V filament xfrmr.
All exposed user-interface parts such as knobs or grilles were
either non-conductive or floating, except the rabbit ear antenna.
Until I checked it with a test light, I thought it was my imagination
that I was getting a tingle adjusting the reception.
At Shore Line, we have a single-truck line car that is used in
the signal department. If we need to check something and we need
to make the car "disappear" we run it up on cardboard slippers.
Gotta be careful to slipper the signal rail, not the power rail!
yikes! time to double check. :-)
I haven't gotten zapped by my ZW, but my Flyer trains really fly with it. We're talking R-10 speed.
But you can't buy a new ZW any more (not a real one, anyway - the one Lionel is currently marketing is just an imitation) because the Consumer Product Safety Commission has ruled against any home appliance, other than those most commonly used near sinks and bathtubs (read: hairdryers), cannot be over 100 watts. A real ZW is 275; the KW has 190 (but actually had more available per train - the max power a ZW could put out for one train was about 120 watts, whereas 160 was available on the KW - the ZW had 35 minimum to the accessory terminals and the remaining 240 was split left/right, the KW had 30 minimum to the accessory terminals but no split of the train power, according to a transformer rebuilder of my acquaintance).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Boy, where would we be without the CPSC to keep us from killing ourselfs!!!! Ever notice how most applicances these days also have obnoxiously short cords on them too?
I never really did fully undstand why lionel's transformer designs looked so off the wall (ok, they look cool, but still). interestingly, the KW looks like a mutated K controller (but doesn't click between notches!).
I'm guessing the ZW and KW were the most popular, followed by the LW. I've only seen one TW in my life, though I've seen a few *Z*s before. Oh yes, and those cool Multivolt one that had the little rheostat in addition to the transformer.
It's annoying not being able to get a real transformer (new) anymore, because today's can't power standard gauge trains (I've tried)
Fortunately, there are a large number of the older ones on the market, and the parts are readily available to rebuild them (the rollers are the most common parts replaced on a ZW, followed by the stud strips on the back and the lamp covers). Although I've seen mint originals and mint-case rebuilds priced at $400, a good rebuilt ZW or KW can be had for about a dollar a watt - $250 to $275 for a ZW, $175 to $200 for a KW. Real good unrebuilts are also in the same price range.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Since Philip is trying to operate Standard Gauge, wouldn't he be better off with a rebuilt prewar "Z". I thought they had a higher output voltage, close to 25 volts.
Heh, actually, I'm guessing standard died off because it created large electric bills - We have a simple circle and one locomotive. I'd hate to want to know what these things are like with accessories!!!
Anyway - does anyone still make track for these things?
On and off, repro track has been produced. I've been involved with a hobby shop in North Carolina for many years, and we carried the track during one run of availability back in the late '80s. Straight sections were $2.50 and curves were $4.00 - no turnouts available. I don't know if it has come on the market since then - due to my remoteness from the shop at the present time I only get involved with its N scale merchandise now.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Original Standard gauge track does turn up at larger train shows. What I have seen always seems to be in rough shape. I'm not sure but I think someone is making new track too.
A friend had a old American Flyer standard gauge engine serviced about ten years ago, and could not get over how much better it ran and drew less voltage after being serviced. Have you thought about cleaning the armature, brushes etc? Some lubricant on the gears and oil on the wheel bearings and other key places might help too. My friend only used his train under the tree at Christmas, and stored it away during the year.
There are several companies making new track including MTH, and their last catalog included electric turn-outs. They also make a rather large transformer called the Z-4000.
I couldn't tell you anything about Christmas trees or lights.
I use candles for Hannukah and they are wired in parallel :)
The bulbs in the standards, D types, R1-9s, Lo and Hi Vs
were all strings of 5. They were staggered so that a single
blown bulb didn't result in an entire corner of the car being
dark. Almost all of these cars (except some of the Deckroof
HiVs) had emergency battery lighting consisting of a few
36 volt bulbs (wired in parallel). These had (continue to have)
left-hand threads. That's not to deter theft but to prevent
errant replacement of a 120V bulb with a 36V bulb.
Some streetcars used an odd arrangement of parallel groups of
4 bulbs (120V). These groups were in turn wired in a series
chain of 5 groups, yielding 120V nominal across each group. If
one bulb in a group blew, the rest of the lights stayed on, but
now the other bulbs in that group would have a slightly higher voltage
across them. If left uncorrected, eventually they would all
blow out. Later cars used strings of 30V self-shorting bulbs,
20 to a string. The bulb was designed to short itself when it
blew. Again, the rest of the lights kept on working, but at a higher
voltage. At about 4 or 5 bulbs out in the string, a chain reaction
starts and within seconds all of the bulbs are gone.
Not entirely. Those small bulbs are usually wired in series and parallel. The 100 light sets have 5 different sets of twenty bulbs each. the 20 bulbs are wired in series, and each 20 bulb string is wired parallel to each other. This is why when one bulb burns out more than one goes out as well. This configuration allows you to have 5 different sets of bulbs blinking seperatley on the same set.
It's a pain in the butt to find out which one of the 20 is the culprit, so I usually just toss a set with a burned out bulb and I buy a new one.
Hope that clears everything up.
Thank G-d they don't wire menorot that way!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Why not? Then everyday would be the eighth day!
This is Kings Highway, change for the F EXPRESS to Bergen Street
This train will be running via the Culver local
The next stop on this W train will be Avenue P
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, thanks for the explanation. I already posted a response to someone about HOW these lights could have been parallel, I didn't know you were talking about Christmas lights. I don't use Christmas lights.
This is Morris Park
The next stop on this Q train will be Pelham Parkway.
I guess I'm the one that is guilty of bringing up the subject of Christmas lights in a way of explaining lightbulbs wired in series.
Another example of series wiring was Lionel toy trains in the late 1940's. Their 156 Station Platform and most of their 0-27 passenger cars each had two light bulbs wired in series. These bulbs GE#50 and GE#51 were each rated at 6-8 volts. If one bulb burned out, both lights in the car or station would go out. Lionel trains back then operated on 14-18 volts AC. In fact I think today's Lionel still do.
American Flyer trains also operate on AC. Most of the Gilbert equipment had universal motors, and could operate on either AC or DC. Lionel American Flyer locomotives have DC can motors with built-in rectifiers, so you can still use a transformer to operate them.
I am old enough to remember. IIRC the old Christmas bulbs were in eight light strings, when one bulb burned out, all the bulbs on the string went out. It was a devil of a time trying to find which one of the eight bulbs was the culprit. There was a way you could cheat though. You could very gently flick the bulbs that were out one at a time with your index finger...sometimes the bad bulb would flash briefly telling you that he was the culprit. If this system didn't work, you were stuck changing each bulb until the string went back on again. This was a miserable job when you had a tree with 12 strings of lights on it. It seemed that every time you turned the tree lights on there would be two or three strings dark. Some Fun!
I'll bet that the BMT electricians never went around flicking the dark bulbs to see if they could figure out which bulb was bad. That is if the interior lights on the "Standards" were indeed in series.
it was a problem with the entire neighborhood. the traffic lights on dekalb ave were out.
Does anyone know haow many people ride the NYC subway systems daily?
[Does anyone know how many people ride the NYC subway systems daily?]
About 3.5 million on an average weekday. Of course, that doesn't mean 3.5 million different people, as the typical rider takes at least two trips. I'm not certain about weekend or holiday numbers.
The NYCTS doesn't have passengers anymore. They are now customers.
Passengers are human cargo that a railroad transports safely
and quickly. Customers are sources of revenue.
OK, so how about another question - what's the CUSTOMER breakdown by line? Any takers? (No - I don't know myself, but have always been curious.)
True the MTA has customers, but the crew has passengers. Much to the chargrin of the MTA that crews call them passengers.
They are customers until they board, then they are passengers.
At IRT Substation No. 42 the 25 cycle rotary coverters will run for the last time in History on October 27, 1999. Then it will be history. See Substation No. 21 photos on this website.
10/20/99
Funny that October 27 is the anniversary date of the opening of the first subway , the Interborough.
Bill Newkirk
Are you saying that in this day and age of enlightenment (?) there is still 25Hz AC provided by Edison?
10/20/99
Does anybody know the location where these rotary converters are about to be retired?
Bill Newkirk
Are these the last rotary converters around?
This is Prospect Avenue
The next stop on this Q train will be Longwood Avenue.
Has the MTA ever discussed annexing the PATH trains and lines into the NYC subway system?
[Has the MTA ever discussed annexing the PATH trains and lines into the NYC subway system?]
Not that I've ever heard. PATH's farebox recovery ratio is considerably worse than the subway's, so annexation wouldn't make much financial sense.
In 1960, no one wanted the PATH, because it lost money. The Port Authority agreed to take it, in return for the right to build the World Trade Center which (in part by paying little in city property taxes) would have the revenues to finance PATH. A limitation on the PATH train was written into the PA charter.
In the early 1980s, Cuomo agreed to lift that limit in exchange for -- NOTHING. Soon, the PATH absorbed all the surplus toll revenues too. One could argue this was also fair, on the grounds that the MTA also has drivers subsidize riders who take the train and give up their share of the road.
Then, during a recession, the MTA was forced to raise tolls and transit fares, and to implement drastic service cuts. PATH kept good service and low fares, and the PA did not raise tolls. Now NYC's airport revenues are also being used for PATH. Then the PA said that despite the passenger facility charge and big NY airport profits, it could not afford build the Airtrain all the way to Manhattan via LaGuardia. That was finally the last straw.
All in all, I'd like to see PATH become part of NJT.
No! If NJT got PATH the fares would be sky high and service cut to once an Hour! and the all-night service would vanish!
I favor the MTA getting the PATH- can we say "MTA Hudson Tubes", but I doubt that would happen due to PATH being a class one railroad. Steve can eleaborate but maintenance costs for the subway would increase since FRA might try to claim the subways. The only out I see would be a new sub-agency HuTOA,(Hudson Tubes Operating Authority ,pronounced WHo- Toe-Ah) whose sole mission would be PATH .
PATh has advised me that every director of PATH has tried to get out from FRA regs in favor of FTA but to no avail.
If the MTA did absorb PATH, would it be feasible to create cross platform tranfers to the F train at 23rd St? I use this stop a lot, and wonder exactly where the PATH tracks are in relation to the F and the express tracks.
The PATH fare would have to go up to match the rest of the MTA system, I figure.
The other possibility would be to create a new division of NJT to run PATH, the Hudson-Bergen LR, and the Newark City Subway.
PATH tracks are behind the station platforms walls of 23rd/6th as I recall although I think the PATH/IND plats would not be conjoined if the wall came down.
And if the MTA did take PATH, that would give them permission to send the L and 7 over to Jersey(yeah, right).
Not to mention doing something with PATH's Ninth Street bellmouth -- running a connection over to the IRT Lex at Astor Place, or connecting it directly into the PATH line, though I'm sure they'd have to hire a ton of consultants to see if a 59th-Lex to Journal Square line would attract any riders.
Look, the Port Authority is proposing to build a new commuter rail tunnel across the Hudson for NJT, and paying for it in part by raising fees at New York's two airports. By the time the city takes over the airports in 2015, they'll have that tunnel with us paying for it, and we still won't have the 2nd Avenue Subway, and we'll have lost the Manhattan Bridge. It's just not fair.
I'm in favor of transit improvments for all, but I can't stand talking about improvements for a state that's ripping us off when we can't have them ourselves. PATH is a better RR because it has lots of money. New York money. If the state of NJ starts paying taxes to cover its operating deficit, then I'll talk about improvements for NJ, also paid for by NJ.
Another way to look at it is that all the NYC riders of NJT will get a free ride once the tunnel is built because NJT will absorb all the operating expenses even though NY and NJ riders will pay the same fare.
[I'm in favor of transit improvments for all, but I can't stand talking about improvements for a state that's ripping us off when we can't have them ourselves. PATH is a better RR because it has lots of
money. New York money. If the state of NJ starts paying taxes to cover its operating deficit, then I'll talk about improvements for NJ, also paid for by NJ.]
PATH's benefits don't run solely in favor of New Jersey. You should look at the 33rd Street station during the morning rush - Journal Square trains typically leave with most or all seats filled, sometimes with standees. The trains are carrying New Yorkers to their jobs in New Jersey. In that sense, PATH benefits New York.
(New Yorkers using PATH to get to NJ jobs). I'll give you that, and I will say having jobs on New Jersey's Hudson River waterfront is better for NYC than paving over more of Morris County. Still, one reason jobs leaving Manhattan are going to NJ and not Brooklyn is taxes. And one reason taxes are higher here is we have to pay for our own mass transit system. Besides, plenty of NJ riders use the subway as well.
[(New Yorkers using PATH to get to NJ jobs). I'll give you that, and I will say having jobs on New Jersey's Hudson River waterfront is better for NYC than paving over more of Morris County. Still, one reason jobs leaving Manhattan are going to NJ and not Brooklyn is taxes]
Another reason is that the city government seems to disregard economic development in Brooklyn and the other outer boroughs. Yes, it's all well and good to bring more business to Manhattan, but that seems to be the total extent of the city's interest. Better promotion for Brooklyn sites - which of course is inseparable from the tax issue - would be an excellent idea, if anyone in City Hall were interested, that is.
Stigma might be another factor, or at least so I've heard. Some businesses think of Brooklyn as a skanky location not suitable for their operations. Metro Tech sort of changed things; it was itself successful but didn't have any significant spillover effect. What's funny about this whole stigma issue is that the corporate executives who scorn Brooklyn surely would be surprised if they ever traveled there and saw that it's not all Sodom and Gomorrah. Not to mention the fact that Jersey City, the site of all this new development, has some 'hoods that are as bad as anything in New York.
(Jersey City vs. Brooklyn). Build a new building in Brooklyn, and you don't pay any property taxes for at least 15 years, probably 25. You are exempt from the commercial rent tax too.
My idea is that race and class are the key location factors for corporate businesses. Yes, Jersey City is not exactly Princeton, but the developing areas are completely isolated from the areas where JC residents live. They might as well by in an "edge city" office park. All you see on the streets are people like yourself. Downtown Brooklyn, in contrast, is a moderate income Black shopping mecca. It is actually very dynamic and successful as such, but don't tell that to the average suit.
For entreprenuerial businesses, it isn't race and class, its hip vs. unhip. Here, Brooklyn has a chance, but new businesses can't afford brand new Class A space. They move into Class B space, which in NYC is former Class A space that was built 30+ years ago. Manhattan has plenty of that: Brooklyn has none. Just Class D space.
Somehow, you can build a brand new Class B building in JC, and rent it profitably for $20 per square foot per year. But not in Brooklyn. That's the problem.
Part of the "problem" may be the boro president. In Queens Clair Shulemen (hope I got the spelling right) is very much involved. Sometimes the suits at this depot & DOT grumble under their breath because of something she has gotten involved with.
Recently College Point had their annual dinner, I wasn't their, but others here who were said Clair was their & talked a lot when given the mike (my friend was waiting for the main course).
Mr t__:^)
The bi-state nature of PATH makes operation by the MTA effectively impossible. So NJT is the only option other than the PA, since they already operate into NY State (Penn Station and Suffern, NY, plus PABT and GWBBS). Perhaps the obligation to operate a certain minimum level of service (certainly more than hourly) could be written into the documents transferring PATH to NJT. Of course, they would start trying to get out of that commitment as soon as they made it, so that probably isn't much of a guarantee.
I'd love to see the MTA take over PATH, but it would take approval from both states' legislatures plus an act of Congress, so it won't happen. For that matter, NJT very likely cannot legally operate intrastate in NY (i.e. carrying pasengers between Christopher St. and 33rd St. and points in between), only to NY terminals from points in NJ, so even that may not be a realistic option. Does anyone know the legal basis by which NJT operates into NY?
I doubt there is any legal restriction on operating in another state, provided you comply with the laws of that state. The reason it doesn't tend to happen is why should taxpayers in one state fund services in another? The Port Authority was supposed to be self financing. It isn't, so there is trouble.
[The Port Authority was supposed to be self financing. It isn't, so there is trouble.]
I believe that the Port Authority runs a net surplus (profit, if you wish) each year. Its Web site should discuss this issue. Although PATH and the bus terminals are big money-losers, the bridges and tunnels, and of course the airports, are cash cows.
The reason why the Path operates interstate because it was a ICC regulated Class 1 Railway(Hudson and Manhatten) and was owned by a Class 1 Railroad (PRR) Like the SIRT was once owned by the B&O
The FRA regulations are probably a bigger hurdle than the interstate travel for the MTA to assume control.
I would think the Port Authority would love to let the MTA assume all the financial burden of the line if they could -- hell, they'd throw in the bus terminal(s) for free -- and just concentrate on their money-making bridges, tunnels and airports.
The MTA would have new regulations to deal with, a different union to bargain with (can you say "sympathy slowdown?") and a system that would be difficult to intergrate into the IRT because of where PATH's Manhattan terminals are located.
Given the right financial incentive, anything can be worked out, but since New York and New Jersey aren't on the best of terms right now, I doubt this is something you'll see them rushing to put together any time into the distant future.
Does PATH have to be a Class I railway for interstate service? WMATA operates interstate (VA & MD), isn't it regulated by the FTA rather than a Class I railway regulated by the FRA?
PATH WAS CHARTED (HUDSON & MANHATTEN) as a ICC Carrier, and uses former PRR Trackage, I guess with PA took over they kept it the way it was. The WAMTA uses private rightaways, even though some of their trackage is on former ICC Railroad Trackage, the Railroad does not share the trackage anymore
What trackiage in washington is former railroad
None, only the part where it runs alongside the RR divided from it by a fence.
Couldn't the PA separate the PATH from the remnant of the PRR nowadays? I know there is still some limited freight service on the former parallel PRR tracks, but couldn't all of those connections between PATH and the railroad be severed and fence be installed as necessary to isolate it?
They could, but will they?
they did!!! i think there is only 1 connection to "Conrail" to move equipment on and off the system.
{the airports, are cash cows.]
Not according to Joseph Vranich's book supertrains. He points out the ridiculous federal subsidies that the airlines enjoy
If PATH is so bogged down with FRA regulations does anyone think MTA would want to take over operations I THINK NOT! although MTA likes the idea of seamless transportation its just an illusion with smoke and mirrors. MTA has pushed Metrocard as a faremedia to make it SEEM to offer intermodal transferability which is all it is to to suck up all the money and use it for Bus/Subway/Commuter rail also now for phone cards. Ezpass was created and is now a preferred mode for toll collection however its popularity has surpassed planners dreams. Customer service for EZpass is understaffed and people are still waiting for tags also billing errors...
Everybody loves to rag on PATH, but it's really not so bad. It actually holds some lessons for the subway. Consider how much cleaner PATH cars are compared to the subway's. Sure, you'll see some litter, but generally much less than on the subway, and most importantly PATH car windows lack that horrible "scratchitti." Station cleanliness is another big plus for PATH. Another item of note is the way PATH has emergency notification buttons in every car. Their omission from subway cars is a grave safety deficiency - as much as I dislike judicial interference, I'd be overjoyed if a judge ordered the immediate, no-excuses installation of these buttons in every subway car. Maybe it'll take a couple huge judgments to get the TA moving.
It's true that PATH has a significantly worse farebox recovery ratio than does the subway. This is noteworthy in that PATH tends to be run in a more modern, efficient manner - in particular, it does just fine with unstaffed stations. I would attribute PATH's relatively dismal financial performance to the fact that its ridership patterns are more like a commuter railroad's, with a heavy concentration in rush hour, rather than being more spread out over time like the subway's. And, of course, there's PATH's lower fare to consider. But all in all, I believe that PATH's not all bad.
Well said, Peter. Two other points PATH had AC earlier, and one good reason not to have all transit systems under one hat is labor disputes.
NJT's Newark subway would be a case in PATH becoming part of NJT. NJT would have problems with NYCTA over a dreamed up extension of the 7 and L trains.
PATH could at least accept metro card. it would be a convienence.
All of these seem like great ideas, but have just one problem. As far as I know, MTA is a NY state agency: as such, it cannot operate an interstate line such as PATH. The most it could do is run the NY side of the road, so don't ever expect to see these kind of merger.
(And no, MTA does not operate New Haven division trains in CT - they are run by CDOT, just like the NJ portions of the Port Jervis and Spring Valley lines are operated by NJT.)
But the MTA doesn't really operate any portion of the Port Jervis or Spring Valley lines either, they simply provide the money for NJT to do it. I suspect that some kind of similar accomodation could be worked out if the politicians really wanted it to be done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is there any pictures of the LIRR Bilevel that I can possible take a look at on this site??????
3TM
42St. Transfer available to the M42 on the upper level. This is a 72St bound H making local stops. The next local stop will be 50St. Step in, step on, step off, step out, stand clear of the closing doors.
I know I once saw a picture of the bi-level on the web however I'm not sure where and I can't seem to find it now, HOWEVER, if you go to http://home.att.net/~Berliner-Ultrasonics/lirr2etc.html and scroll all the way near the bottom, (a long way) there is a picture of one of the bi-level's locomotives.
10/20/99
A report card of LIRR service as rated by the LIRR commuters was made public the other day. The results were the worst rating in four years. Anybody out there care to voice your input on this?
Bill Newkirk
My grade for the LIRR:
F minus.
I'd give the LIRR an honest D. I've yet to be stuck on them. but then, I can't think of an "A+" system around here. Here's my scores:
LIRR: D
NJT: B+ (rude conductors, engineers reading morning paper)
Septa: D (cool equipment, but otherwise a dump)
Metro-North: B (M-2s ratty, diesels slow, otherwise nice)
Amtrak: F (slow, unreliable, overpriced, infrequent, lousey ride)
MBTA (commuter): B- (Nice, but ^%%^$%& slow)
Patco: C- (Fun trip, but I got stuck in the station, courtesy 60's vintage electronic farecard system)
DC subway: C (No soul, closes early)
Boston T: B (dirty, but otherwise fun, and the green line rules)
Newark Subway: ? (I've not been on it in a few years)
Path: C (dark, dirty, but fun anyway)
NYCTA: B (Was a bit better 4 years ago - but still lightyears ahead of the 80's)
[Septa: D (cool equipment, but otherwise a dump]
For SEPTA, are your referring to the reigonal rail or the reigonal rail or the reigonal rail and the subways. Because the reigonal rail does not have cool equiptment, and some lines deserve a good F, because they are reigonal rail lines that should really be subways or at least light rail. Some lines should be moved over a few feet to serve malls, (like the R2 and R3 Reading lines) so they would serve many more people.
The BSS is a great fast line; I would give it an A-. Its only problems are City Hall station and the fact that it just isn't bigger.
The MFSE would get a B-; it just isn't fast enough and the new adtranz cars had some problems.
When I first saw the score card, I said to my self that it was a lot of S&%T. However, after the last 2 days of closely observing, here are a few of the things that cause the LIRR to rate so low.
1) My train last night required 3 M-A resets en route.
2) The lock on the restroom was inoperative.
3) 1 seat was missing.
4) This AM my train was 20 minutes late due to brake problems.
5) Brentwood Station bathroom never in service (vandalism)
6) Water leaking from the ceiling of my train last night.
All in all, I think the 'C' is a well deserved grade. However, I do not feel that the crews deserve the poor grade they were given. I also don't think the LIRR management grade was low enough.
One more thing.... The blonde model type with the leopard skin blouse and jacket, who offered me the plastic bag to cover my head due to the water leak. - There's a definite AAA+
Background: I'm a weekly rider of Metro North and a frequent (non-commuting) rider of LIRR. IMHO, the LIRR is consistently less reliable and has a surlier, less helpful staff with more attitude than MN. Two examples ....
(1) Major requipment point: The LIRR is finally replacing the appalling south shore cars from the '50s (known to my friends as "The Albanian National Railway" -- and I suspect that's a terrible slur on Albanian transit) with bilevel coaches. Their signs, announcements and A/C often don't work. I'd say one in three rides on a bilevel have something wrong. These are teething troubles (I hope and pray) that I would have thought any other RR would have worked out before putting the equipment into revenue service.
(2) Minor operating point w/anecdote: Metro North allows multiple riders on a single train to use the rides on a Ten-Trip ticket. I (foolishly) assumed that the LIRR did so too. When I tried, the conductor virtually announced to the train how ignorant I was -- and when I pointed out that MN policy was different, he bellowed, "Well, did it SAY Metro North on the side of the train, huh?"
Bad policy + surly attitude = Angry resentful riders.
Not that THAT's news to SubTalkers, I would think ....
For those that want to see the whole report card it was in yesterday's Newsday. The overall rating is C down from C+ last year.
If you seperate the diesel from electric service, I wouldn't disagree with a average rating of C for the electric service. A "D" for poor service has to mean that sometimes it's realy bad & hardly ever good, I don't think that's true on the electrics. Diesel service I think has some real horror stories, not to mention the dismal state of the equipment that folks are forced to endure on a daily basis.
Well, that's just one, now infrequent, customer's opinion.
Mr t__:^)
I've seen the websites of NJT and the HTMA, but neither of them have any info on where the line will run north of Hoboken Terminal, and how soon they'll start construction. Is this part of the line stuck in bureaucratic mud?
The map I've seen says that it follows the existing freight ROW that runs near the base of the palisade and then curves East and then North into Weehauken and past the Weehauken ferry landing
I don't think all of the funding is in place for the Hoboken to Weehawkin segment. The money is in place to go as far as Hoboken Terminal.
If you can still find a copy of the September issue of Railpace it contains a feature article on "The Future of NJ Light Rail", most of it deals with the Hudson-Bergen LRV sys., incl. many photos & track plan.
No, I don't work for the publication in any way, but it is a nice article just the same & thanks to another Subtalker I ran out a picked up a copy.
Mr t__:^)
Was walking through the Northeast Passage at GCT today. A train of Cosmopolitans was parked on one of the adjacent tracks. Below one and later another of the engineer's cab windows, in plain sight, were the words: "PENN CENTRAL". The sticky letters had been scratched off, but the outlines were plainly visible. 8446 and 8738 were the car numbers, I believe. They were north motors in their pairs.
Also, on a separate ride this afternoon, rode a "yellow-stickered" R62 (ok, maybe an R62a) on the #3. I thought those yellow roses were all on the 6, harkening back to the old color scheme.
Sure. The M-2s came in in the mid 70's to replace the washboards. Supposedly, the M-2s origionally used the same ignitron (mercury arc) vacuum tube technology (though air cooled). Wouldn't surprise me, as high power solid state devices were still fairly new then.
I'd *love* to get my hands on a (wiring) schematic for the M-2s....
That is more like a "Wiring and Schematic Book". Those things are complex!
Lets get the MP-54 down first! :)
Gerry
I'd *LOVE* to get the MP-54 down. Unfortunetly, the LIRR doesn't seem to want to even return my calls - and I can't get to Morris Park on weekdays...
BTW - the LIRR sales rep at Union Switch and signal was more helpful - he actually returned my call, but they don't have any records on what the MP-54's ASC equipment was. I might try Westinghouse and Wabco next, but I'm assuming I'll get the same thing.
Anyone got any ideas (short of tracing it out myself?)?
when will the public get to see the R-142 test trains, and what line will they run on?What are the features?Do they look different than the ill fated R-110? How will they phase out the old rusted redbirds fleet? Will the TA keep some of the better conditioned redbirds, and have them spread out on other lines for extra trains?
A:The Redbirds will probably not be in revenue service afetr they're delivered.
B:We hope to see a test train before the end of the year.
C:They will run on the 2 and 5(I think) while the 7 get's R-62(A)'s
D:Check the Bombardier website for somewhat of an advanced picture of the cars. They resemble the R-110A's, but they already have other problems(Seats that face each other).
The R-110 is not "ill-fated." It's only purpose in life was to test R-142 and 143 technologies in real life situations.
This is 125 Street, last stop in Manhattan, change here for the 4, 5, 6 and Q trains.
The next stop on this V train will be 3 Avenue in the Bronx.
NOTE TO READERS: I've decided to switch Bronx terminals of the Q and V. When you read about the Q in Bx, then that's what the V is supposed to do. Now I'll switch back to the Q. The disadvantage is that you don't get to read the names of the Pelham stations, but we all know them anyway
R-142s will go into service on the 2 and 5 line, when they finally show up. This is why the barn at E.180th St was rebuilt - its sole purpose is the care and feeding of the new trains. Redbirds and R-62s will be shuffled in an as yet to be decided manner, but one which will probably result in 62s on the Flushing line. As for when they will arrive, all we can do is guess. This past May, the Chief Mechanical Officer of NYCT swore himself silly that the first test train would be on property by the Oct.15 - see how well that worked out? The next inspection trip to Plattsburgh is currently scheduled for early January, so don't expect to see them before March 2000 at the earliest.
I suppose the new rolling stock (R142) at least the test consist will probably show like you said March or April of 2000(NOT!) if the test trains are this far off schedule i'm afraid to see how the rest of the shipment will show up.
I have not seen an official bulletin, but there are at least TWO versions of this card:
The first has the slogan: "playing your high school oboe in the subway is one way to pay for renovations. May we suggest another?"
The second is :"Hey you, standing in front of the yellow line: Do you have enough insurance?"
NOTE: I have not seen a bulletin so I do not know what booths have these cards.
10/20/99
Subway Buff,
I hear of a third Conseco card about to surface. Nothing concrete on this. Anybody out there hear of the #3 Conseco,let us know.
Bill Newkirk
To use a Subway metaphor, both the Mets and Braves were IRT #4 trains, headed uptown for 161 St. Both trains had passed 155 St, but the Mets were going north on the downtown track and went BIE at the portal.
I'm a Braves fan (sorry, folks), but still, it was a damn shame that somebody had to lose that series (as in Braves-
Twins '91). Congrats to the Mets for a spectacular season
...those guys have heart!
Late night F trains from both ends of the line are terminating at Hoyt-Schermerhorn st to allow trackwork on the line from Jay to Bergen streets.
Last night as I was travelling under the river the coductor stated:
"Ladies and Gentlemen the last stop on this train will be Hoyt/Schermerhorn Streets. There you can take an A train back to Jay street and transfer to an F to Coney Island"
This created some priceless facial expressions, and I wish I had had a camera.
The train of course stopped at Jay Street, and almost every one got off the F to some how skip a step in the convoluted process...except for the ones who stood in the doorway and did not allow the train to proceed.
At hoyt street, both A platforms had F trains from Queens turning. The station staff made a PA announcement that was correct, and the conductor listened intently out the window, a little late of course. He had no badge that I could see, aren't these guys supposed to have numbers on them?
All in all pretty aggravating that this guy could be so obstinately and completely in the dark. At Jay he was actually arguing with people on the platform!
Dave
Now in your next post you tell us that both Manhattan-bound and CI-bound F trains are stopping at Hoyt-Schermerhorn. Obviously, the CR didn't read the GO correctly, but he was right that to get a CI-bound F you couldn't change at Jay St.
YOU deal with 50 people all asking some variation of the same question all alone. At the same time trying to keep a schedule and with absoulutely NO platform personnel there to assist you.
Conductors are not required to wear the hat while operating from a full length cab FYI.
So before you condemn that conductor, work the road and see for yourself.
This guy gave out information that was just plain wrong. Either he was not notified or could not remember to right information. I've had jobs where I dealt with crowds of people and their sheep/herd mentality, and I have respect for people that have the kind of patience to deal with that regularly. BUT How could common sense let you tell a train load of people to ride one extra stop and back to a station you were about to stop at? I assume that every trainman has a radio, and if this individual had had a question, he could have called for advisement.
This type of thing discourages passengers, and makes them think about taking other modes of transportation like cars, or cabs, and that's what pissed me off. The MTA runs as well as it does because of the professionalism of its employees in the trenches (note: NOT management) but every chain is as strong as it's weakest link, and this person puts all employess in a bad light, even when most don't deserve it.
The F train operator who climbed down and removed full trash bags from the track bed tonight would be someone who tips the scale in the POSITIVE direction...
AND, I think about "working the road" every day, and leaving a good job to do so, but reading your posts in the TO Test thread don't make it seem like a wise career choice. Are the new recruits somehow not in the union -- how is it that they can't strike?
Dave
The new T/O's are on probation for one year so if you strike you most likely will be demoted to your previous title. The people that accepted the promotion before their probation was complete would probably be fired since they have no title to go back to.
During the 1980 strike, I was a probationary conductor, and I as well as my fellow classmates were not fired, and we had no previous title to go back to. I will admit that today the TA beauracracy has the workers right where they want them with an atmosphere of fear permeating the workplace at all times. Morale is at an all time low. Don't worry about a strike, it will never happen. There are too many TWU members who would not support a strike. All the TA has to say is: "If you strike, you lose your seniority." Just see how many guys come to work on Dec. 16th!
Transit does not control the seniority, the Union does. They cannot place anyone on a roster without the TWU executive boards permission.
Case in point: Steve Sales, the motorman who was framed by Tony Bartolotta and Co. to take the blame for a signal failure at Steinway St. TA demoted him to his former title of conductor. They placed him at the bottom of the seniority list. At last month's union meeting (do YOU go?) a motion was introduced to return him to his former level of seniority had there been no break in service as a conductor. That's 11 years worth. Now he can pick in accordance with his time, and we can send a message to management. You can only screw this man so much.
So in no way will TA EVER tell us who picks when.
i wouldn't worry about the rank and file doing the striking since members of the SSSA(SUBWAY SURFACE SUPERVIORS ASSOCIATION) may strike on December 1....
If there's ever a strike they could just have supervisory personnel drive the trains, as in 1918.
Oooh, Killer Idea!
This is Sumthin Boulevard, change for the R
The next stop will be Parsons Boulevard, change there for the F and R.
When was the last Strike, where the subway, busses, or both stopped running? I remember some one big wildcat one in 57. This is the K-Brighton Beach-6th Ave-Queens Local via 63rd St Tunnel, making all stops to Continental Ave-Forest Hills
The last one was sometime in the 70's. I was driving a medallion cab then and thought I'd make a fortune. But since traffic was at a standstill I actually made less than usual!!! The one before that was in the 60's, when Quill died in jail.
Close--April 1980. Before that, January 1966.
David
[The last one was sometime in the 70's. I was driving a medallion cab then and thought I'd make a fortune. But since traffic was at a standstill I actually made less than usual!!! The one before that was in the 60's, when Quill died in jail.]
this is probably true since there is so much superivision around.. one problem who would operate the doors? put a superintendent in the conductors place and a tss up front...put a l/supt in a tower here and there g/supt in the dispatchers desk NAHHHH i don't think so
New York State law prohibits strikes by TA employees, union or no union.
read carefully: prohibits. NOT prevents. Get your shoes ready.
They can strike, but they will be docked two days pay for every day of strike. That is what the LAW says....
They can't strike because as either probationary or
provisional appointments they are "at will" employees. As
such they get very little rights and almost no union
protection. They can be fired at a moments notice and
without cause. If that happens they will have no recourse
to defend themselves. Although I would do my best to
represent them, my hands would be tied.
Becase of this management tends to abuse these employees.
If there were a strike they would be expected to show up
anyway because they would be terminated otherwise.
I don't think they would do it, but they might suspend
them in shifts of a few dozen at a time for some
outrageous amount. Say 45 days or so. That way TA could
still keep enough on hand to make service. And considering
they are prob/prov there's nothing I could do about it.
I agree with you that we have some bad apples. Sometimes
we are our own worst enemies.
But also we learn quickly that no good deed goes unpunished here. If you strive to help or do anything that in any way works out of the strictest definition of your title (like the T/O and the trash bag) you could find your self suspended.
Its nice to see that all union/management relationships are just as dysfunctional in every trade!
Its nice to see that all union/management relationships are just as dysfunctional in every trade!
Try negotiating from the point where management opens by saying: "We do not need any of you at all..."
first and foremost what would help to eliminate alot of questions with regard to service disruptions is for the PASSENGER TO READ THE BULLETINS that are plastered around stations. Secondly the Conductor must have been given the wrong information or read the Go notice incorrectly.
Most of the red/white service disruption notices are clear and to the point. The GO bulletins in terminals read like stereo instructions but as usual question the Dispatcher if unclear about the general order..
Yeah you're right. But I find that most people don't really "read for comprehension." -They would ride a train with the right letter off the end of the earth! I knew what was going on, so I just witnessed people getting more and more confused.
So, who is it thta's "functionally illiterate"?
Could anyone tell me how they are turning the F branches late nights?
I Assume that the Manhattan trains turn back on the A express corssover between lafayette and washington, and the CI trains are turning at Bedfor/Nostrand on the Crosstwon Line??
thanks,
Dave
You're correct on both branches.
So what about 6Av local service? Does the D take over?
3TM
50St. Transfer to the M50 on the upper level. The next station will be 57St. Transfer to the M31 and M57 on the upper level. Stand clear.....
The northen "half" of the F runs from 179st Queens to Hoyt/Schermerhorn via 6th ave local
I believe the F is still running as 6th Av. Local via Rutgers tunnel during the work, and switching to the A tracks at Jay St. for the reversing moves described. (So, presumably, the only work they're doing is between Bergen and Jay Sts.)
Correct, they're doing switch work at the north end of Jay St station(track B2).
I've just added Clifton Hood's 722 miles to my review pages at rapidtransit.net.
If you're at all interested in or like to discuss the politics of NYC transit, you should really look at this, even if you just get it from the library.
About 3 hours ago while working I saw a work train on Broadway and Malcolm X Blvd (between the Gates & Kosciusco stations) that said VacTrack on it. I assume its a vacume cleaner but it looked ultra-modern. Anyone have any info on it?
Somewhere I've got a photo of it, taken on the 7 one weekend in the spring of '96 (?). I'll have to see if I can find it.
What are the blue lights in subway tunnels for?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The blue lights denote where there are emergency telephones. Many places in the tunnels are inhospitable to radio reception, so if needed, these phones may prove valuable. On platforms, you will see a black "T" in a red circle, which will denote the same thing.
[The blue lights denote where there are emergency telephones. Many places in the tunnels are inhospitable to radio reception, so if needed, these phones may prove valuable.]
IIRC, there are emergency third-rail shutoff switches next to the telephones.
The blue lights are for tax Telephone Alarms and eXtingisher
The way we were taught in the Police Dept (after the merge & the whole NYPD got transit training in the yards & tunnel) if the emergency electricity cutoff switch is thrown you MUST immediately pick up the phone and explain why you cut power otherwise the power will go back on in a short time, to discourage pranksters from cutting power.
I don't recall seeing the blue lights in the IRT Flushing line (7) Steinway tube under-river crossing or anywhere in it's other tunnels.
Does the IRT have emergency telephones and 3rd rail power boxes?
The simple answer is that the blue lights indicate where the emergency telephones are located. More importantly, however, the blue lights, located approximately every 600 feet, indicate the location of the emergency alarm boxes. These boxes are used to remove 3rd rail power in case of an emergency.
Correct wiuth a few amendments. For example all four tracks at one point near a typical IND station display a blue light. However the location of the phone and alarm boxes will be on the southbound local only. The northbound T/Os would pull up to the light, secure their train from rolling and walk across the tracks to the phone. The exception to the rule is underriver tubes where all lights have the phone and third rail power boxes. If power is pulled in a river tube, only that track "should" be removed. Don't ask me about the IRT as it still baffles me to this day. On the Liberty Avenue El, there are blue light locations equipped with phones and alarm boxes on the structure. The Rockaway line also has them so they can be found outdoors. By the way, is there any working magnento phones or sound powered tower phones in the system?
At 59 Master Tower there are 2 old black phones with no dial. One is connected to 145st Dispatcher and the other to Bedford Park Tower. The people in the tower call the phones "Mags". You pick up the hand set and it rings at the other location. The same thing if they want to call 59.
Is this the type of phone you are refering to?
In IRT under river tubes, if you pull the power, both tracks in that tube, ie north and south-bound will lose power.
How about those rats in the tunnels. Has there been any reported attacks on the workers doing their jobs in the tunnels or do the little creatures just run when they the workmen coming. Frankly, I'm not so sure I'd want to venture into those tunnels. I'd just as soon stay on the train as a motorman if I would have become one---which I would have had I not moved to California when I was 14 years old.
We had received a report Thursday of a rat that attacked an entire track gang. Word was it had a white helmet and a blue tie and took everyone down for a BAT. Actually being a motorman does not make you safer. While working work trains at the City Hall loop, I had one in the cab prying open my lunch and when I turned on the light, it gave me this evil stare like it was better than me and continued until the shoe paddle met the target. I learned not to use paper bags after that one.
This a wonderfully convoluted one and was used as a trick question on the TO exam that 32 people passed.
According to what we are told in School Car, the blue lights not on the structure (els) denote the location of Emergency Alarm Boxes. At these locations you SHOULD find an emergency telephone, a fire extiguisher and an emergency lever to cut the power to the third rail on all tracks in the area. If the blue light is IMMEDIATELY south of a platform, there is NO extinguisher - it has been moved to the token booth to prevent vandalism. At some locations, there is NO lever to cut the power (Corona Yard has one of these). Therefore, the only thing you can ALWAYS find at a blue light location is a telephone.
I always thought it was a warning similar to a red light district, that is, if you picked up the phone near a blue light, you would hear a risque joke.
Blue lights in the Subway is different then blue lights or flags on a railroad. But then the Subway does not answer to the FRA except for the two SBK engines >G<.
I just got back from Boston where I rode the PCC's on the Boston-Mattapan line. It reminded me of the Newark City Subway, but the Newark Cars still have the soft seats and the crank windows. Enjoy 'em while they last!
I notice some of the cars are orange although most are green. Is this a trend? Why not paint them red, since it's the red line?
It turns out that while the Ashmont-Mattapan line is formally a part of the Red line (from the public's perspective, it is an extension of the Ashmont Branch), it is operated by the Green Line (Light Rail Division).
The newly rebuilt cars are painted in the orange & creme of the Boston Street Railway.
Forty Lashes with a wet noodle Todd!
Its the Boston Elevated Railway!
The scheme the cars are being painted in now is the one they were delivered in. The later tangerine, no longer in use, was a mistake by a builder on an order of buses, which became the standard. Then came gray and white - also a systemwide scheme, followed by the line oriented schemes. Lately the (T) has been slipping out of its standardization program, allowing the return of orange and cream on these cars. This attitude has also produced the ugly new 'Green' Line scheme, and the Red Line's second attempt at cars without paint!
Indeed, Gerry, you're correct. My fingers were typing faster than my brain was thinking.
The new Green Line scheme is a freakin' abomination. Before, the green on the cars matched the green on the station columns and all signage, and made sense. What color is the new light green with the gray, anyway, is it more of a "puce"??
Dave (disgruntled)
Is there any evidence of an entraceway to old Myrtle-Flatbush Av station?
Was there an transfer between that station and the Myrtle Av El?
3TM
57St. Transfer available to the M31 and M57. The next station will be 66St. Transfer available to the M66 on the upper level. Stand clear......
There was no transfer between Myrtle and the subway at Myrtle & Flatbush. Maybe because there was no Myrtle L station at Flatbush.
In fact, when the El was built in the 1870s, there was no Flatbush Ave. there. Flatbush Ave. ends at Fulton St. North of there it is Flatbush Ave. Extension, which was created as an approach to the Manhattan Bridge after 1900.
-- Ed Sachs
Ed and Paul: Your Myrtle Avenue notes have jogged my memory again. Can any of you tell me if my Sea Beach or the West End ever had a station there? I seem to dimly remember as a kid coming to Myrtle Avenue right after the train entered the tunnel again after crossing the Manhattan Bridge. I don't think I'm hallucinating, am I?
The West End and Sea Beach stopped at Myrtle whenever they stopped at DeKalb.
Take the D or Q train Manhattan bound from DeKalb. Look out the window on the left hand side of the train or the RFW. When you see tiles on the left wall, that's the Myrtle platform on the right. It used to be illuminated until 1997, because it once held a solid animation (the train moved, the wall was the film), but by then it had been destroyed by vandals. IMHO, vandalism should be a corporal offense. Capital for repeated offenses.
This is Gun Hill Road
The next stop on this Q train will be Baychester Avenue
Before the collage was there, the Myrtle Avenue columns and signage were in plain sight.
www.forgotten-ny.com
You can still see the Myrtle Ave. signs on the station columns, although it's not easy. It didn't hurt having a slant R-40 railfan window to look through. The tiles on the curtain wall are plainly visible.
Thank you. Is there some sort of entrance or stairwell left for this station?
3TM
Welcome aboard the P train. This will be 2Av local making all stops to Fulton St/South Street Seaport. The next station will be Gunther Av. Transfer available to the Bx 26 lower level. Step in and Stand Clear of the closing doors.............
Fred, if I remember correctly the Sea Beach back in the 40s and 50s bypassed Myrtle Ave and DeKalb Ave, The West End and Brighton stopped at both stations. Many a times I took the Brighton EXP into the City, and waited at DeKalb, and a Wesxt End came in, and ran over, because the West End Left earlier. I thinlk the arrangement was over the Bridge, was Brighto, Sea Beach, West End. I also remember the disks in the Manhatten Stations along the platforms telling pax where the doors on each line were suposed to open. Next Stop Wilshire and Vermont on the RedLine, transfer to Wilshire and Western across the Platform
Brighton Beach Bob: Thanks for the note. I do know this. At Times Square, once the terminal point for the three Southern BMT lines, the order of appearance was the Brighton Express, West End and Sea Beach. How do I know? Because a conductor once told my parents how the trains arrived. They did so because they probably got tired of me squealing about riding the Sea Beach. Sometimes we had to wait two trains before mine came in. My parents knew this was one thing that I was incorrigible on. It had to be the Sea Beach, unless we were going to Ebbets Field. Think you might change your mind and move back to California?
Sea Beach Fred. Not really, I have no family ;left in Calif and neither does my wife, the are all in the Metro NY area, so Virginia is not that far away. Far out from the city to be in the Country, but close enough to DC to do things. 1 hour away, the time it took me to drive the 405 from Northridge to LAX at Rush Hour
Hey guys-- this web site is for everyone. If you want to address private messages to each other, please take it to email.
-Dave
I looked around for any signs of an entrance a couple of years ago, but didn't find anything. The TA seems pretty diligent about obliterating traces of entrances when they close stations, consider 18th Street on the Lex (just a metal trap door), or 91st (nothing at all).
I wandered through that area earlier this year after someone on this forum pointed me to what they believed to be a trap door over one of the stairways. I found the trap door they were referring to but could not confirm if it entered the subway. I suspect it does, however, since it had that unusual triangular "lug nut" that many of the emergency exits have. It also appeared to have been recently repaired - there was a small, fresh concrete patch at the hinged end.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
10/21/99
I don't know if anybody answered this but there is an emergency exit door for this station. There is a cinder block wall with this door where the old entrance used to be. You can still see it today. Nothing giving a clue to it,just a locked door in the wall. When this station was open years ago,there was an entire canopy that spanned the width of the sidewalk. I seen a picture on this.
Speaking of the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station. You can see remnants of the SOUTHBOUND side. When riding a southbound train,full width cabs a no-no,a few yards before entering DeKalb,you'll see the tiled walls with the niches just like the northbound side. The southbound platform is long gone,that was demolished when one of the southbound tracks was shifted during the late 50's DeKalb Avenue platform lenghtening project.
SPEAKING OF DE KALB AVENUE !! Before DeKalb Avenue on the Northbound side was rearranged,you could use the bypass track and switch over to the TUNNEL track. That's why no columns on that stretch. The tower was located there just like Pacific Street used to be. Now there is a remnant of the old BRIDGE bound track switch on the northbound track. Just go where the original tiles meet the late 50's yucky! tiles. Look down at the concrete roadbed. You'll see part of the concrete vere off left a few inches. That's where in the old days you could leave the BRIDGE platform and cross over to use the TUNNEL tracks! Sound complex? It was then,it's now simpler.
Bill Newkirk
Is my memory correct about the cross-over on the Northbound side at DeKalb? I seem to remember the trains would really arc over when they crossed over. That used to be a real bottleneck there, but I liked the arcing. Maybe that's why I see blue dots in front of my eyes. The other interesting thing I remember about the southbound side at DeKalb before reconstruction was how curved the platform was and what a large gap there frequently was between train and platform. I also seem to remember the train announcements at the stations back then going something like: Now arriving on track 1 a Brighton Express to ...... If I am not mistaken the man announcing the train had a booth at the north end of the southbound side.
The station doesn't seem as interesting now as it did then.....
Backthen I used to love to stand on the city bound Dekalb Station, watching the whole Southern Division go by, The Standards of The Brighton/West End. Triplex of the Brighton Exp. R 9s 4th Ave Local, and the former SIRT on the Culver-Nassau Local and Express. Yes the Culver even ran a express on the 4th Ave during Rush Hours, and all this for a 15 cent token, and the smell of Chock Full of Nuts Coffee at the begininng of the Man Bridge Bklyn Side, and if you get lucky, yo may have to stop on the bridge, and see a new Navy Ship Passing by from The Brooklyn Naval Yard
10/22/99
Bob #1Brighton Exp Man,
YOU MUST BE TALKING ABOUT THE "GOOD OLD DAYS"
Bill Newkirk
It seems a little strange to imagine all you guys entranced with DeKalb Avenue for this reason: I always loved that station, and the tracks leading to and leaving it on both sides, I thought it was just great---and now to find that while I was standing there or riding thru getting all excited, there's a good chance one of you guys were
doing the same, and I never realized until recently how many subway buffs there are, and how long they have been so. I just always thought I was an oddball.
There are loads of us railfans. I used to think I was an oddball also, until I was introduced to the Electric Railroaders' Association in 1972. Railfanning in NYC goes back much further than that. It's like -- What came first? The chicken or the egg? What came first? The railfan or the subways (els)? I grew up in a family that didn't have a car. Everywhere my parents took me when I was growing up was on the subway. The trains have been in my blood since I was a toddler.
To Bill Newkirk. Yup, I moved from Brooklyn in 1958. I remember as a kid my dad used to give me 1.00 to go to the movies on a Saturday Afternoon, but I usually save my allowence, used 30 cents for 2 tokens, took the subway some place. Had a Nedicks Hot Dog and Drink for about 75 cents instead. or just rode the subway all day. usually had a snack at Times Square Station. Love those old Lo Voltage Cars on the 7th or Lex Lines to the Bronx. I still get back since I have family in the Metro area
Several posters have mentioned R-9s on the Fourth Avenue (local, I assume) in 1958. How long were they there? I was out of the City from late July of 1957 until late January of 1959 and there were no R-Anythings on the Fourth Avenue before I was away nor were there any after I moved back--I rode the line from 69th Street every day from 1953 through 1957 and again from 1959 through 1962. There were R-1s in the late 1940s and early 1950s that ran on the Fourth Avenue (a way to avoid assigning any of the new R-10s to the BMT), but I never saw an R-Type until the new car purchases of the early 1960s.
Can someone clarify? Was there a surplus of cars on the IND?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
In the late 40s/early 50s, several sets of R1s did run on the BMT Fourth Ave. local route. These were used until about 1954 when the R16s and ex-Staten Island cars arrived.
I recall once around 1958-59 seeing a train of pre-war IND R series cars on the Fourth Ave. local (not sure exactly what series, but definitely R1-R9). I only recall seeing this once during those years, it was not a regular assignment. In those days, the line ran exclusively standards (until sometime in 1961 when R27/30s started to replace them). Maybe this is what was being referred to.
-- Ed
Before I moved from NYC, I remember seeing pre war R 1-9 cars all the time on the 4th Ave Line, never anything else. This was for at least 3-4 years prior to 1958. I am looking at a photo I took at 95th St in 1`956 and according to the lead car is 1261 so it is a R-6
No transfer between the Myrtle El and the 4th ave. Myrtle stop. Flatbush Ave.Extension was built about 20 years after the el was built, and the subway about 15 years after that, but the el did have an interesting bridge over that newer road, however.
The former entrance to the Myrtle Station is a decrepid BMT style storefront, with a crumbling concrete face and a steel door for maintenance access. Its right next to a defunct Oldmobile dealer.
Anybody have any details or stories to tell about the Ashland Place connection?? I understand that there is some evidence still there for this planned portal.
Is the Frankilin Shuttle considered BMT or IND? It run BMT trackage but transfer with 3/4 IND lines?
3TM
66St. Transfer available to the M66 on the upper level. The next and final station will 72St-West End Av. Transfer available to the 1,2,3,9 Bway-7Av service to the Bx. On the street level, M5, M7, M11, M57, M72, M104. Stand clear of the closig doors.......
Franklin Shuttle is BMT, insofar as there is still a separate BMT and IND.
Just curious - what sort of "upper level" (distinct from "street level") do you envision for the M66, M42, and M34?
Sometimes I say upper level instead of street level. Pardon me......
3TM
72St-West End Av. Final Stop. Transfer available to the 1,2,3,9 service on the upper level to the BX. The M5, M7, M11, M57, M72, and M104 on the street level. Thank you for riding the NYCTA H line. This train is out of service. NO PASSENGERS!!!!! Stand clear.......
I have neve been sooooo insulted in all my life :-(
Of course it's BMT. Any subway/rapid transit line that predates 1920 or so in the Borough of Brooklyn was originally BMT (with the exception of Flatbush/New Lots Avenue lines).
Doug aka BMTman
Im sorry. I guess I need to brush up on my subway history!!!
3TM
Gunther Av. Transfer to the Bx26. The next station will be Eastechester Rd. Transfer to the Bx31 on the street level below. Stand clear of the closing doors.......
I know I should know this, and it may make me sound stupid, but if anyone can answer these questions I'd be much appreciated.
Was the K/KK line a peak-direction rush hour line (like the QB) or did it operate in both directions (like the CC)? If it operated in the peak direction, how did passengers who wanted to go downtown from 57th St. in the morning do that?
Which line (K or KK) ran all the way through to 168th St.?
Did this line run local or express along Broadway?
Someone told me that the K (or KK) also ran to Atlantic Ave. Is that true?
The K and KK both operated in both directions during peak hours.
IIRC, only the KK ran to 168th St. When it became the K, it was cut back to Eastern Pkwy/Bway Jct.
The lines were local on Broadway, the (Q)J became express during rush hours.
I believe there were either K's or KK's that ran to Atlantic, and possibly even Canarsie (I know predecessor JJ's did that), but I'm not sure this was ever on a map.
Bobby
Who was on the last (real -- the re-named AA doesn't count) K train in the summer of 1976
Too bad the KK didn't run all the way to Washington Heights. Then it could have had its destinations be the same (168th Street). Which would have been the North terminal?
Charles Fiori's comment about the 'KK' and 168th Street isn't as far-fetched as it might seem. In the early 1950s, as part of the DeKalb/Chrystie construction plans, 'BB' trains were envisioned as being extended south from 34th Street/6th Avenue through the Chrystie connection and across the W'burg Bridge, running to 168th
Street/Jamaica Avenue. It would most likely have been a rush-hour service, like the 'KK' was in later years. But obviously, that never materialized, like other parts of the Chrystie plans.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Boy that would have been confusing, both terminals at 168th St, can you imagine on both the uptown and downtown lines someone asking does the K/KK train go to 168th St, and the answere is which 168th St. sort of whose on 1st
Yes, imagine you are at W4 street on the 6th Avenue southbound platform and in comes your Local KK with the NORTH destination side sign lit on 168 St and you look across to the uptown express B train with the NORTH destination side sign lit on 168 as well. One of the clicks I remember well about those R-9s and pre overhaul SMEE.
By 1968, an illuminated side sign on the R-1/9s was a rare sight. In the case of the KK, you wouldn't have seen such a thing. The KK used R-7s and R-9s which had been transferred to the Eastern Division, and in the process, the light bulbs in the sign boxes of those cars were removed.
I prefer the wickedly complicated KK, starting at the lower level of Jamaica Center, then terminating at the upper level:
"This is the KK train from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center via bridge and tunnel. Stand clear of the closing doors"
Then again, there was a similar confusing service on the E line before it was permanently cut back to the WTC. You could hear the conductor say "this is a Queens bound E train" and still have no clue if it went uptown or downtown.
They used to say Jamaica, or Lefferts/Rockaway bound then not Queens Bound. I remember they always gave the terminal name. This is the K bound for 168th St Washington Hts or 168th Street Jamaica take you pick I go to each place
10/22/99
If this signage fantasy were by todays standards the signs would say:
168th STREET / MANHATTAN
168th STREET / QUEENS
Bill Newkirk
Wouldn they say 168th St-Jamaica and 168th-Wash Hts?
But they would still say Queens or Manhattan (or Staten Island) on the second line of the rollsign.
This is York Street-Navy Yard, last stop in Brooklyn change for the F
The next stop on this W train will be Essex-Rutgers Streets in Manhattan
This is Essex-Rutgers, change for the F
The next stop on this W train will be Grand-Pitt.
1 have a slice of a old R1/9 Roll Sign and it states 168th St-Washington Hts on it. No Manhatten
Also, I was on an E train yesterday, and noticed that for Jamaica Center and World Trade Center, there were no boroughs. It's also funny that now, the E runs between two centers and under my plan it would run between two malls (Green Acres and Staten Island).
Green Acres Mall
Valley Stream
Staten Island Mall
Staten Island
EQueens Boulevard/8 AveStaten Island North
This is 50th Street
The next stop on this W train will be 59 St-Queensborough Bridge, change there for the N, Q, R, V, Z, 4, 5 and 6 trains.
10/23/99
[Wouldn't they say 168th St Jamaica and 168th - Wash Hts?]
No because roll signs years ago showed destination or neighborhood.
(ex. Canarsie,Astoria,Coney Island,Jamaica etc.)
In todays world in the MTA's scheme of things,the new roll signs show destination and BOROUGH.
(ex.Dyre Ave/Bronx,Times Square,Manhattan,Metropolitan Ave/Queens,Franklin Ave/Brooklyn. etc.)
Bill Newkirk
On the R-1/9s, the upper destination signs would allude to the branch the train was operating on - Wash. Hts, Concourse, or Jamaica. There was a Queens-Forest Hills sign, however. IIRC, there was one reference to Brooklyn on the lower destination curtain: Brooklyn-Church Ave. There were no references to Manhattan or the Bronx. BMT rolling stock, OTOH, did refer to Manhattan. There were 57th St.-Manhattan, 6th Av.-Manhattan, and 8th Av.-Manhattan signs on the BMT standards and Triplexes.
Chris: There was nothing stupid about your question,especially as regards the KK, it was afairly complicated schedule.
Rt KK ran Mon-Fri from Mon Jul 1,1968 to Fri Dec 30,1972.
Rt K ran Mon-Fri from Jan 2,1973 to Aug 27,1976.
The KK ran during the am rush to 57/6 as follows
Lv 168 Street 710a-823a (B Skip-Stop)
Lv Atlantic Av 610a-656a,849a-926a
Lv Rockaway Pkwy 621a-655a
Lv 111 Street 659a-708a
The KK ran during the pm rush to 57/6 as follows:
Lv Eastern Pkwy 308p-522p
Lv Atlantic Av 453p,459p
The KK ran from 57/6 during the am rush as follows
To 168 Street 654a-718a
To Atlantic Av 746a-844a
To Eastern Pkwy 816a,834a, 851a-1011a
To Metropolitan Av (Myrtle) 726a-809a
The KK ran from 57/6 during the pm rush as follows
To 168 Street 408p-533p (B Skip-stop)
To Eastern Pkwy 539P-638p
The K ran between 57/6 and Eastern Pkwy
Lv 57/6 655a-954a and 321p-645p
Lv Eastern Pkwy 614a-930a and 238p-604p
Three put-ins lv Rockaway Pkwy 622a-700a to 57/6
Two trains lv 57/6 to W 4 St 1002a,1011a
Info is courtesy of ERA NYD Bulletins and personal observations.
57 to Metropolitan trains carried KK signs even though they properly could have been called MM.
Apologies to Stephen Hawkins about the title.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I just like the idea that the KK ran BMT standards in its first days, so those trains finally got to be used on the Sixth Ave. line. It almost makes up for MTA paint jobs the R-7/9s got in their final days on the line. Combined with the unreliable maintenance (the KK always had trains going out of service), the ugly paint jobs made the line one of my least favorite in the early 1970s.
Maybe I'm wrong but during the late 60's (after Christie Street) I rode on the IND 6th Av line an awful lot and NEVER saw a standard on it. If I remember correctly the KK always had IND cars (R1-9's) As a teenaged sub-fan in those days I remember if I wanted to ride a standard I had to ride either the 14St-Canarsie Line, The Franklyn Shuttle,or the Culver Shuttle. (The same way I had to ride the Bronx 3rd Av line for a Low-V or the Myrtle for a "Q" car)
If I remember correctly all the standards were take off the Eastern Division in 1955 when the I am still not sure of the correct number I will say the R-15s came on board
The R-15s were IRT cars. You're referring to the R-16s, which initially were assigned to the Eastern Division. Even so, the BMT standards remained a fixture on the Eastern Division, and finished their careers there in August of 1969.
When the Rockaway line opened in 1956, fifty R-16s were sent over to the A line. They returned to the BMT two or three years later.
Thanks Steve, I did not have my book handy on BMT Cars, and was not sure if they were 15s or 16s on the Eastern Div Bob
There were Standards on the Eastern division right
down to their last days in 69. I recall in the mid
1960's the R1-R9 cars were suffering mechanical
breakdowns at an alarming rate and a bulk of the
R16's had to be transerred to the IND (GG?) line,
until the R40's were in full service. They were
replaced by standards, IIRC.
Here's the url of a Standard on the now-gone Supthin Blvd station on the #15/J, taken in '65:
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/bmt-b/supthin.jpg
Just curious, is it SuPThin Blvd. or SuTPhin Blvd? Or are both correct, depending where you are, like Beverley/Beverly Road?
It is spelled SUTPHIN Blvd.
But weren t a lot of the standards moved to the Southern Div in 1955 when the R 16s were put on the 14-15 Broadway Brooklyn Line, so the West End can run its full route without changing trains to a shuttle at Bay Parkway.?
No, the Standards were on the 14St-Canarsie Line (LL) until the very late 60's. That is considered the Eastern Division, isn't it? Or is it just the Jamaica Line?
The Eastern Division would consist of today's J/M/Z trains (Broadway-Brooklyn El & Myrtle Ave El remains) and the L train (Canarsie Line).
--Mark
The Fulton and Lexington Ave. els were also considered to be part of it as well.
While looking thru a old album of mine dateing back to Summer 58, I found the following equipment usage that I observed while rideing the subway. BMT Standards West End, Brighton Local, Franklin Shuttle Triplex Brighton Exp and Sea Beach Exp SIRT Culver Nassau R-16 Jamaica. Bdwy Bklyn and Myrtle Chambers R-9 4th Ave Local Multi 14th St and Myrtle Chambers IND R 1-9 All except A R-10 A R 16-A IRT Lo Volts 7th Ave Express and Local except Bdway 7th Ave Exp Lex-White Plains Exp R 12,14,15 Flushing Line R-17 6 Line Lex-Pelham R-21 Bdwy 7th Ave Exp(1)
I pushed the button too soon R-22 Jerome Ave Express
There was a post a few weeks back about spotting a set of Standards on the Broadway el that were running on the KK line when it first began service. Since they were still in operation on the LL at the time, a one day reassignment for whatever reason would not be all that unusual, especially for 1968.
I don't think it was so much an issue of unreliable maintenance. It had more to do with an attitude of "new cars are on the way, so we don't care about the old ones. Run 'em into the ground." In other words, it was a case of neglect, plain and simple.
Can someone please direct me to the Subway sound files that are somewhere on this site(or so I think). I downloaded them some time ago but a disk clean up lost them for me.
Thanks
Simon
Swindon UK
I was directed to http://milton.mse.jhu.edu:8003/sounds.html.
There are a few more on www.nthward.com, a web site maintained by a SubTalker, David Cole
About how long is the NYC sub-way system? I need an awnswer quick!!!!
The Official New York City Transit site has a Facts and Figures section which should help you.
-Dave
It has 468 stations, 722 track miles and 320+ route miles.
It covers 4 boroughs, has 25 lines and employs around 5,800 subways cars of three divisions.
It holds the all the world's number 1 records save for route miles and age(London underground) and passengers per annum(Moscow Metro).
I thought that the NYC Subway would win if you counted overlapping route miles (A, C and E are counted separately for example). Also, I think they would also win if you just considered the express a differing route.
This is Baychester Avenue
The next and last stop on this Q train will be Dyre Avenue.
Not sure about the record for the number of lines, it depends on what exactly is meant by a line. For example, the N/R lines would almost certainly be recorded as just one line in London. If by a line you mean distinct routings, then the following apply:
Metropolitan Line: three routes plus Chesham shuttle
District Line: five routes
Piccadilly Line: two routes
Northern Line: six routes (but at most four run at any one time I think).
Count the lines this way, and the numbers soon mount up!
Many lines in NY run on the same trackage, but like the N/R or D/Q have different terminals on one or both ends, and they get into Manhatten at times by different routes
It's actually more like 230+ route miles in New York, which is second only to London. In terms of total track, New York wins hands down.
Coney Island yard has more track then any system in the world except London.
Subtalkers may be interested to learn that from Monday 25th October
only 11 (eleven) crew operated 1959 stock tube trains will run on the
NORTHERN LINE of Londons Underground.
These working are during the Morning and Evening "Commute" or Rush Hour as we say here.
This stock you will remember is the last to be operated by Guard (conductor) and Train/op , all other London Underground lines being fully OPTO.
Regards
Rob :^)
Thanks for the Northern Line update - I am from Sydney and was in London last week and managed to catch a ride and a photo of a 1959 train.
What has happened to the seven car train which was painted in 1920 colours some years ago? Will it be kept for anything?
The seven car train painted in 1920's heritage colour
(our very own Redbird!!) is currently split and is operating
as a 4 car set 1044 paired with unpainted 3 car 1079
and a 3 car set 1031 paired with unpainted 4 car 1300
It is hoped that after a selection of Railfan tours to mark the
end of Guards (conductors) on London Underground this complete
unit will be saved and moved to the "new" museum at Acton.
See http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/depot/ for further details.
Regards
Rob :^/
Rob,
Thanks for the reply; I was talking to a Museum person on my visit to London recently and received the impression that there may not be interest in the 1959-62 stock as they were seen as a continuation of the 1938 stock style. Any comments?
Ian
Various sets of 59/62 stock still operate as works/pilot cars and will continue to do so after the passenger fleet finally finishes (in January 2000).
It would be nice if say a 4 car set could be retained as the museum tends to go for single driving cars only, and only has a completd 38 stock, A privatley owned 1960 cravens stock (3 car) exists still
REGARDS
ROB :^)
Are the remaining '59 trains used all over the line, or only on certain routings?
I caught one at Moorgate over the summer and, not understanding who the uniformed fellow stepping onto the platform to look around was, tried to follow him back into what turned out to be the guard's compartment. He was pretty patient with me, all things considered; I guess it must happen all the time.
The remaining trains of 1959 tube stock are used on all branches of the Northern Line, Edgware to Kennington then via Charing Cross loop
and High Barnet/Mill Hill East to Morden via Bank.
As these are the only crew operated trains left in use on the
system, passengers are not used to seing a uniformed member of traincrew standing in the single doorway of the last car! as all other
trains are one person operated. The only seperation between guard and
passenger area as you may have noticed is a small bar across the gangway.
Regards
Rob :^/
While researching the building of the Independent Subway System back in the 1930's I came across an interesting fact. From the A to the GG the system was truly subway all the way. That is, underground---except for two stations on the GG and F Lines. One elevated stop was ( and still is) Smith and 9th Street, the other is
4th Avenue. My question is why were these two stations above ground when allthe others were underground? I would like any info on this topic any of my colleagues out there can give me. You see, I write more than just on the Sea Beach or the Mets.
I believe the reason is the grade change, with the land sloping down Prospect Park, plus the need to get over or under the Canal. Going under would have been expensive, with a steep grade. Going over allows the tracks to rise gradually while the land falls away below. Same reason the original IRT is elevated at 125th St.
Larry: You anticipated my next question. Why when all the Manhattan trains are underground, it comes up at 125th Street? Nice goin.g You a mindreader?
This is commonly discussed here. The 125 area is called Manhattan valley. Rather that go down, and then back up at 125, the IRT saw that it would be easier to stay level. Which means that the train runs on an el. Notice there is no grade change on the train passing through there.
This is 23 Street
The next stop on this W train will be 34 Street.
Okay, here's the scoop.
Smith-Ninth is WAAAY above ground (the heightest station in the system). It was built above ground to save on the larger expense of having to tube-tunnel beneath the cesspool known as the Gowanus Canal (you can see it running beneath the elevated structure). BTW, the structure is a massive web of steel beams embedded in concrete to save the steel from the corrosive elements of the New York Harbor and Gowanus/Red Hook air(?).
The situation with 4th Avenue was one involving the geographical nature of Park Slope. Just as the name implies, the neighborhood is built on an ancient glacial ridge with grades too steep for any rail equipment to climb. So the station was built above ground and then becomes subway for the rest of the trip south until Ditmas Ave. where the line becomes elevated once again, for the Culver line section of the journey to Coney Island.
Doug aka BMTman
If you look at it today, especially the underside, it looks like the corrosive air has won.
Sea Beach Fred ... you want information on the IND? Well, you've come to the right place.
My Capsule History of the IND is right on this site. (Actually, it's not so capsule, and I'm revising it right now. In the next few weeks, there'll be even more info available, as well as a timeline and a bibliography of sources I checked in writing the article.
The reason why the Smith Street Line (also known as the South Brooklyn Line) crossed the Gowanus Canal using a viaduct instead of a tunnel was simply money. It was cheaper to bridge the canal than it was to tunnel under it. At the same time this was proposed, there was also a proposal to extend the IND Fulton St line to Rockaway Avenue.
--Mark
Mark: Looking forward to reading your history of the Independent Line. Thanks for the help.
And speaking of the Sea Beach, did you know that a group of R-1s ran tests on that line in 1931? They were even fitted with #4 route signs up front.
SteveB-8AVEXP: Good God, Steve, is that right? Boy would I like to get my hands on some pictures of that. Do any exist, and does anyone know where some more info on that experiment is? That is something I had no idea of. Well, thanks pal. I learn some new things every day on this website.
Took the BMT today. God, the crawl from Pacific Street to the Montigue Tunnel is awful. The trains barely move. It seems like the track is red flagged or something. I know curves slow trains, but the A/C takes the train from Chambers to Broadway-Nassau quickly. Just about any curve on the system is taken faster than this.
My question: is there a fixable problem with the track/signals that is slowing down the trains? Or is the series of curves and switches hopeless?
if the grade timers were eliminated or at least the speed on them increased there be an improvement in train speed.
VERY MUCH SO!!!
Brian
There is the one difficult S-curve which was supposed to have been the reason doors on the BMT Standards, and then on all BMT subway equipment, was locked. If you were passing between Standards on that curve, you would've been cut in half.
However, the restrictions were not always so. In pre-Chrystie days equipment moved through much more smartly.
I don't know when the change was, or why, but suspect it had to do with the TA's general degradation of performance in the name of safety. On a similar note, trains never used to run so slowly between Cypress Hills and Crescent Street on the J.
The main reason the TA slowed the signals and the trains is because of the accident on the Williamsburg Bridge a few years ago. Brian
That part of the J line has been slow for as long as I can remember (back to the 1970's).
I think the 7 trains crawl through the Steinway tunnels. Whenever I've taken them lately, the GT's always keep us at 20mph (if lucky), usually below 20mph. I've always wondered why, the steep grade, the narrow tunnels,etc. Are any of the other IRT tubes as slow as the Steinway tubes?
The only other IRT tubes, not counting under the Harlem River, are Joralemon ('4/5') which is usually very fast and Clark ('2/3') which is usually very slow. This may be because of a sharp curve just south of Wall Street, but it's a sheer straightaway all the way under the river to Clark Street, so I don't know why it seems so pokey, but it does.
The Steinway tube is usually pretty fast with the possible exception of during rush hours when the trains tend to stack up in and out of the Times Square terminal.
Back on topic, is the problem that the train operator cannot see a train ahead around the curves, so the train has to crawl slow enough to stop short?
If so, could new signals -- that let the TO know if there is another train in the tunnel before the next station, or in the station ahead, remedy this? After all, if the next station is cleared or clearing, and the following train will be stopping in it, there is no chance of rear ending.
Or does a train have to move at 15 miles per hour or less to avoid de-railing on the curve of the switch south of Dekalb?
The loss of time is enormous, and really reduces the value of the Montigue Tunnel -- which has good connections on the Manhattan side.
Trains moved thru that stretch at a decent clip back in the early 60's, nothing like what was described here. The only place I remember a slowdown was at the respective switches where the Brighton line joins both tracks
Remember this tunnel was built over 70 years ago, for then.
Ok, I think a little explaining is in order.
First, there are only 2 timers associated with a homeball just south of Whitehall. I believe the speed is 25 through the area, but to make sure the homeball clears you need to go about 18. Just past the homeball is the Nassau St. cut. Where the M trains come into the tube.
The problem begins when the N or R catch up to the train infront of it. Then the conga line starts. The N, for argument sake, will catch the R around Cordtland (sp?) st. because of the timers south of City Hall and a new timer between Cordtlandt (sp?) and Rector. Then the R is allowed to go into the tube THEN an M train is cut in between the R and the N.
Now, the going is ok until the R reaches Court.It makes the station stop, BUT the M now has to wait because it was right behind the R. The R takes the slow curve south of Court and the M slowly crawls into Court. By this time the N is stopped in the tube, or if the T/O is smart, slowly moving throught the tube approaching Court.
See the problem?
It gets worse.
South of Lawrence, there is a timer rated at 17 miles. IT WILL ONLY CLEAR AT 8 MILES OR LESS!!! If you approach it to fast. You have to stop. Then deal with a nother timer entering Dekalb. It clears about 15 or so.
SO.... the trains are crawling or even stopping as they try to pass the timer south of Lawrence. Making the trains behind it stop as they catch the train ahead.
The M and R go local and the N goes express. There is a switch south of Dekalb then the Wheel Detectors. The WD's are rated at 15 for the first one and then 10 for the rest which continue to about the 6 car marker in Dekalb (definately more than halfway in).
THE PROBLEM... you cannot trust the WD's. Most T/O's (myself included) take the area at 8 miles or less to make sure the WD's don't go off and trip the train. It has happened where a T/O going 10 had his train tripped by th second to last WD just south of the switch. SO EVERYONE CRAWLS.
Of course they could always cross a B infront of the N (2 yesterday) before the N can cross from the local to the express. You need to stop and wait for the B to clear.
But the schedules for the lines take into account this problem and a several minutes are added to the trips of the rush hour trains. Also, some of these problems are caused by one or more of the 4 trains running a little early. HOW??? When you catch upto the train ahead, there are less people to pick up, hence you have faster station stops, and can run a little fast.
Later,
Chris
I too try to operate ontop of my leader to keep the traffic flowing IF i'm not held for time at some GAP stations. If the T/O uses the station timers correctly you could be entering the stations as your leaders last car leaves the station. Now if people can get out of the habit of holding doors things would move alot more smoothly...
As for those timers from Court St to Dekalb Avnue this is true the slowest damn timers in the system next to the GT's on the 2/3 between Chambers and park Place to name a few..
The question is, why are all these slow timers there? Because trains might derail if they go faster? Because curves limit visibility, so they are concerned about rear end collisions? Could a different signal system allow speeds to increase without compromising safety, or are the curves just too sharp to get through at more than 8 miles per hour?
The timers weren't there before, the trains moved faster, and they didn't derail. Draw your own conclusions :)
The problem as I see it is the system is too static. Ok, maybe at rush hour that maximum safe speed is lower because there are more trains... But at 2 in the morning the next train is probably miles away. The system should be able to accomodate these things dynamically. The timers are a band-aid on a system that should be re-engineered with modern tecnology.
even with Communication Based Train Control signals more trains will be able to operate closer together versus the fixed block system in place HOWEVER those trains won't be travelling any faster.
Secondly plenty of GT's are rated for say 15 or 10 mph but won't clear at said speeds. I was told by a TSS that those signals should be reported to Control Center, I haven't reported any to date but it may be better to just operate as i was told 5 miles or less than posted on the GT area just to be on the safe side. On the plus side some GT's are fast clearing but common sense if the GT is in approach to a tight curve give me a break and just go with the flow...
I was reading this weeks CHEIF and it looks like lots Hundreds of people are taking the Exam. For many this is a dream come true to run a Subway train. It was also a Dream come true for me exept I payed the price being a Trackman 1st. But for the people on the street just 5 years of working at Burger King will due. Train Operator is now a joke as far as I'm conserned. As far as whos for the Exam is mainly Conductors. Train Operators and Train Service Supervisors are opposed to it. But will see what happens. If The Union agrees with TA to broadband the Titles such as Train Worker 1 and 2 that may kill the Train Operators test. So will wait and see what happens in January.
Dave, I been study the book but the book is hard & i have to study very hard until the test it on Jan 8,2000.
Peace Out
Meaney
PS your game from TD2 are fantastic & are you making more track builder??? what track r u making next?
Good Luck On the Train Operator Exam. But it may not be as hard as it is in the Book. The book shows the exams the promotional had to do. It will be a easier exam now.
As far as TD2 My son just donated Times Square North, Grand Central, 137 St, 240 St, Lenox Tower.
Enjoy!
Hi Guys. I'm taking this test in Jan also and I would like to know where can I find this exam book?
Thanks,
Paul Polischuk
Paul Polischuk, You can find the store Call The Civil Service Bookshop at 89 Worth Street between Broadway & Church Street. The number is (212) 226-9506.
Peace Out
Meaney
Good Luck to all that are taking the Train Operator Exam. Brian
Thanks and good luck to all on the test
Are all conductors promoted from within the TA or do they also have an open test like this one? If not, how do I get "in"? What jobs are open for anyone?
Well They usually take a Promotion test. Before now Bus Operators,Conductors,Track Workers, Station Agent, Property Protection, and Cleaners were only allowed to take the test before it went open.
At this time there is No Promotion test for Train Operator that was in July.
An open competitive Conductor exam was given not too long ago, this exam for the public doesn't occur too often maybe 4-5 years between tests.
The open competitive for the Conductor was in May of this year.
I'm sorry you feel that way, but it's an opportunity for someone like me to get my foot in the door. Don't make the assumption that just because someone who worked at Burger King will be a lousier T/O than the guy who spent several years as a C/R. Every person is different and if you can't cut the mustard, you'll be put out to pasture! It's not impossible to learn the job, only that those with prior experience at Transit will have a better understanding of things that are happening there.
Is it unfair for to have people coming off the street and becoming T/Os? It might be. What do you suggest to make the title T/O a worthy one? I'd have to think that those with several years of Transit under their belts will be able to reap the benefits of a promotion.
-Stef
According to one Union VP, 5 years flipping burgers at Burger King is not going to cut it with TA when they look at work experience; they are supposedly looking for people who had supervisory experience in their prior positions, so that they will be more easily promotable to other positions. Of course, the 5 years also needs to be verifiable, so if you worked for a company that went out of business, you can forget about it.
As to why TOs don't like this open competitive exam, I THINK the basic reasoning goes like this: we all had to work to get this job -know the rules, know how the train works,know the signals and signs, because that was what the promotional test was based on. Then the TA gives a promotional test with 7 questions that even the TSSs can't answer, their spokesperson tells the media "We're not looking for brain surgeons.", and one paper responds by calling us "functionally illiterate" (Did I miss the thread on that, or did it just slip by the boards?). Now comes this new exam, open to the street, which will not be based on those things we had to know. The people taking the (much easier) exam will say, "The News was right. These people are stupid if they couldn't pass this test." And, poof, even more division in the union.
As for CRs being in favor of it, they also realize it will be easier to pass. What hasn't been told to a lot of them, is that if they are called from this test to TO, they MUST resign from their current position, and start all over again. If something happens, they have NO JOB to go back to, as they would have if they took the promotion.
Which is prescicely what management wanted. The whole
point of giving this test was to hire people with no prior
title to return to.
In recent years with train operator seniority moving at a
snails pace, and the vicious penalties for minor
infractions, most of us decided not to take the job.
Who want's to wait 10 years for Saturday and Sunday? All
the while getting suspended for staying home while your'e
sick!
But not being blind to an oppurtunity to get over, a lot
of us took those tests and accepted the promotion. For a
year, and later six months (and this is why only 6!) we
would enjoy a raise and a steady day job with weekends off
in training.
And then promtly after we completed training we would
return to our former titile with that much more seniority.
A little vacation of sorts.
Well as the disciplinary cases against train operators got
worse, more of us took advantage of the system. So
management predictably got pisssed, and figured a way out
of it.
T/O Open competitive.
Now this wasn't easy. They had to go to the city and
justify this action. So they had a real ass of a TSS by
the name of Cooper who thinks he's God's gift to car
equipment write a real difficult test that no one would
pass. There were questions about R-46 P-Wire for God's
sakes! Their own supervisors had trouble with it. But they
got exactly what they wanted: an artifical shortage.
Now they could subvert the civil service system and get
away with it.
By hiring provisional T/O's they could pick and choose who
they wanted based not on skill, not on aptitude or even
experience. Based on who took sick days. This was the sole
criteria! So after shortening the training to bare
minmum(read: unsafe. Notice the rash of accidents in
recent years attributed to operator error?), they promoted
unqualified people to boot!
But they won't call in sick!
Now contract time is here, and all these provisional
T/O's are out there. Even those called from the recent
test that passed are provisional. Funny how the test is
taking SOOOOO long to grade. Until the list is officially
certified those called from the list are called in order
as the test is graded, NOT in order of score. TA even went
so far as to promote those who were still probationary in
their former title!
This test was ridiculously easy. Why? Because all those
hand picked T/O's were already bought and paid for.
Couldn't have them fail could we? And presto, we have an
army of train operators who CAN'T strike! Voila!
Those numbers that the TA LIED about to the Daily News
were true to an extent. But only because they counted
those who passed and have NOT been called as of yet. The
total number of those who passed was convieniently
forgotten.
The next batch won't be able to strike and won't have a
former title to go back to. And most folks won't be able
to return to a job they quit 9 months or a year ago, so
welcome to the New York City Transit Authority! You are
now an indentured slave. Resisitance is futile.
This is the real reason for T/O open competitive. NO
OTHER.
Don't think it's about breaking the union. Management did
that in the 80's under Gunn.
Don't think it's racist. Management doesn't have that much
control, and they're not that stupid.
Don't think it's about raising the level of
professionalism. They would extend the training to what it
used to be, if that was it.
Don't think it's about trying to get more people to take
the test. Thousands already do. And when it's a legitimate
test, THEY PASS.
It's about keeping the T/O's they pay for right there.
It's about having enough T/O's on hand to run some sort of
service and be able to break a strike. In short it's about
what ussually drives Satan: money.
And don't think John Gaul( Assistant Chief transportation
Officer-Control Center) and Nat Ford (Chief Transportation
Officer)haven't devised a master plan for what to do if
there is a strike.
It's theirs and Joe Hofmann's (V.P.-subways) heads that
will roll next to Agritelli's and Axelrod's (labor
relations dept.chiefs) heads when Il Duce, Guilianni calls on the morning of Dec 16!
The plan is to have all the qualified supervisors and the
provisional T/O's available to operate a Sunday schedule.
Ha! They are in for a rude awakening!
Even those minions of satan; supervision, they are working
without a contract and are on the verge of striking as
well!
Hey Larry! Wake Up!
Your train is headed for a collision.
Ooops. Don't forget, your predecessor modified the brakes.
So you better jump off!
roflmao!
HEAR HEAR !!!!
I can tell you, I took the hard as hell test and just barley missed passing (65, I think) And it was REALLY HARD. There were around 16 questions that almost (save 3) everyone got wrong. Don't remember any now, But I can tell you they were a bitch. The high score was 80.5. 32 passed. 29 took the promotion.
As for the last test, MANY people failed on purpose. Many provisionals (forced to take the test) put in to go back to former titles and were refused, so they failed the test. Many more went back before the exam and never took it. So the numbers are very wrong with regards to current employees who passed the test. Of around 120 provisional only 85 or so took the test and maybe 64 passed (what I have heard). So of course only about 1/2 passed.
The test was about 35% Bulletins, many of which were not part of the study book given out in class, so only C/R's who searched for em could get them. The rest was Rules and Operating proceedures.
Much easier, but without the material to study, and not being around the trains (cleaners, clerks, bus drivers) did not help anyone.
I passed but made some stupid mistakes :P
Later,
Chris
Chris
I dont know where your facts are from but they are totally off base!!
I agree the exam you took which was failed by many was a difficult exam, altough those who properly prepared passed.
Unfortunately there were no preparation classes given for that exam by the training unit. Consequently, only those with access to RTO bulletins and those who really took the time to read and know the rulebook had an advantage.
Regarding the most recent exam (July 1999) 800 of approximately 2100 people taking the exam received a passing grade. All of the individuals, as a prerequisite to accepting the provisional Train Operator title agreed to file for and take the exam. Nobody was forced to submit a request for, nor forced to accept the provisional title.
Preparation classes were given for THIS exam and every recent pertinent bulletin as well as other materials were issued to those that attended. Apparently you did not!
You state there were employess that requested demotions to their former titles and were denied, therefore they failed purposely skewing the failure rate. That could not be farther from the truth.
NOBODY was EVER denied a request to return to their former title. In fact, provisional employees failing to satisfactorily complete their training were returned to their former titles.
If you post information here I suggest you have your facts straight before making any false allegations!!
I was called for motors after taking the latest test and was given the option of staying at my current position until my probation was over or taking the chance of becoming a T/O and putting my career on the line. I decided to stay put until my probation is over.
It was also explained to me that you are provisional until the list is certified.
Please explain the 33 Provisional people in the IRT who failed the test and have not yet been returned to their former titles.
Ok dude, I am only stating what I have heard. I have talked to several guys who were in the provisional group and went back, I have talked to several who took the test and said they failed on purpose, I know of 2 people who asked to go back and as of the test date were not sent back, so they failed... actually since I haven't seen them in a while, they were probably sent back afterwards.
As for having to take the test... yes that was a pre-req. but I was stating that no one who was called for provis. didn't have to not take the test.
As for being properly prepared for the first exam... I know way to many people, myself included who studied for it and still failed. THAT WAS A BULLSHIT TEST.
As for the bulletins... one bulletin I have not yet found, and if it was in the packet that School Car gave out, I did not see it. The rest of them I got I already had. Yes I didn't go to the classes, I didn't need them. As I stated I made stupid mistakes. I passed and I knew all but 2 questions. One was the bulletin I never found, but I should have known it, and the other was based on a bulletin that has two seperate answers for it.
Ok, I have a question then... why were 2 of the weeks for the classes spent on stuff that had no pertainance to the exam? One week on OPTO and another on Miscellaneous (diesels). The only question on any of this was where to stop an opto train if no opto stop marker (a bulletin).
AS for numbers... I don't have the exact numbers as the TA and Civil Service have not released a broken down figure. I was relaying what I have heard from persons in the know or say they are in the know... perhaps just a load of hot air.
Perhaps you have a more exact number breakdown as you have qouted a number...
Do you have any facts? I would like to know so I don't keep relaying the rumor.
I am not trying to start any flames, I would like to know, correct me if I am wrong do not berate me!
Later,
Chris
Yes, the TA is really scared of us now whether they admit to it or not. Ray Rogers is popular with both ND and the James team. Which is one reason why the TA is trying to defame our characters in the press before Mr Rogers can do it to them. Speaking of the flunkies in the Daily News, they printed a one sided story defaming over 10,000 New Yorkers when they didn't even call the Union to see if they would trip up or deny it. They failed to investigate the TA with their previous brand of journalism they were once famous for. We can't pass T/O exams and are illiterate as well? They certainly failed to ask Joe Hoffman how they filled over 2,000 motorman positions between the 1989 exam where they tried a similar tactic and this exam where under 40 passed. I wonder how many remember the 1994 Daily News strike when the TWU supported their asses in subway stations. I feel sorry for someone who really wants to become a train operator bad enough that he/she will work for an employer that publicly humiliates their employees in the manner that the NYCTA did. If you really want to run trains, look at the railroads where you are appreciated a little better than we are here. You would not get an engineer's job off the street without some sort of train experience. Why ruin your career tracks? Go back to school, go through the ropes of life then look at the anger of the posts of some of those on this site and ask yourself if it is worth it to work for the Satan of the rails.
In my opinion the Daily News and the NY Post are doing a terrific job of doing one sided stories regarding Transit workers. As for doing investigating the 1998 promotional Train Operator test I never read either paper mention how little preperation was given for the test. I passed the test ranking number 5 and currently have been a T/O for 8 months. AS for the TA looking to make its employees look incompetant its another ploy to make us look bad in contract negotiation, So much for the TRANSIT PROFESSIONALS they so try to put across in its employee newsletters!
What the MTA wants is to eventually have minimum wage earning folks doing most of the jobs if not workfare people do the task. I don't hear the media looking at salaries and perks of managers and the like at MTA, I think supervision and higher ranking managers nummbers have increased and so have their salaries/benefits. So why is there no attention to this?
I think your portrayal is as one sided as the News and the Post. I don't know what is the agenda of upper management any more than you do. However, it must be said that despite the leaner workforce, the system is cleaner, safer and generally more efficient. Say what you will, this was done by a talented workforce under the supervision and management of some very innovative people.
I don't think that the ultimate goal is to reduce the workforce through the use of workfare people. If anything, it has provided an avenue of opportunity for hourly, supervisory and managerial people. There are over 50 'Lead Cleaners' working with the WEPS. They earn roughly $1.70/hour more than other cleaners. There have been additional promotions from hourly to supervisory to support the program, with more coming. And naturally 4 managerial positions were created. Keep in mind however, each of those managerial positions were filled from the supervisory ranks. Again this will lead to more opportunity for the rank & file.
Expressing no opinion on this particular fact:
before David Gunn took over in Feb of 1984, there were
around 300 managerial employees of the Authority. When he
left there were over 2000.
A fine example of this is a DIRECT quote from former MTA
chaiman Robert Kiley:
"you organize your self as a commando outfit. And you go
in, and Goddamnit, you know what has to be done. Fu**
them, we're going to do it our way or it won't get done."
This is the mind set of those on the 13th floor.
Their way means that total war must be waged against the
working stiff. Disciplinary actions against TWU
represented employees have skyrocketed. Hundreds of honest
Conductors and Train Operators have suffered the loss of
pay or been demoted. And for what. To prove they are in
charge?
I have nothing against an open competitve T/O test. I
actually welcome it. It will knock some of the
cockiness out of some T/O's who think they are special
beause they run the train as a "promotion". The conductor, an open competitive job is still in charge of the train as many of them forget. So this will put them on the even footing they should have always been.
Has any one noticed that other technical job in RTO, Tower Operator? Funny how no one seems to have a problem pasing the test and keeping that job, eh?
We are human. We are angry. And our day is coming.
I can understand that. Actually, I was trying to make a point here about someone with less experience in Transit doesn't necessarily have to do less of a job than the guy who was a Conductor. Does he?
You mentioned 5 years of supervisory experience to be considered for the job. This is a viable way to determine who should get the job. One thing you didn't mention was that time in College would also help to get someone in the door.
-Stef
"we all had to work to get this job -know the rules, know how the train works,know the signals and signs."
What railroad are we talking about, Alex? From my frequent conversations with the crews on various lines. precious few T/Os have a good working knowledge of how the train operates. More-over, most people taking the promotional exam know little about the signs and signals until they go to the prep classes. Give college educated outsiders the same classes and they will do as well, if not better. I think we all need to step back and look at this issue in a more universal context.
With proper training, any intelligent person can qualify. If you pass, then I say welcome aboard. What does someone within as say, a station agent have over a person who just spent five years at UPS dlivering packages?
This is a non issue taking up time and resources better spent organizing for the contract. Don't play into their hands Al.
my question is what would make a College educated Train Operator hired off the street better than some one employed from within the TA? what would be the factor? there are plenty of college educated people already in the title of Conductor and Train Operator...
It doesn't. That's just an excuse to divert attention from the real reasons I already outlined.
I think I have made this point before. I don't think that the extra education will necessarily make for better train operators. I do, however, think that the self discipline it took to be in college may just carry over and make them better overall employees. I'm specifically speaking about Punctuality, attendance and a strong work ethic.
This is true, how about military background then too? same discipline and attitude also then... yet i don't see that mentioned also. It seems civil service is equal to uneducated/inexperience from what i see tossed around, which leaves the stigma of lazy and uneducated people doing the groundwork of Transit Authority. For the most people the system works well gets people around from place to place. it never seems that when riders get a good ride it is mentioned to loudly but the moment that a delay occurs or inconvenience heaven forbid...
Broadbanding is happening accross the city. My first ever title was one of the first to Broadband (Stockworker and Storekeeper/Principle Storekeeper to Stockhanler 1/2/3 and Supervisor Stockhandler 1/2/3).
Now all the Purchasing Agent titles (Asst. Purchasing Agent, Purchasing Agent1/2/3, Buyer, Principle Buyer, Quality Assurance Agent, Contracting Agent) will be lumped into one title next month.
Should transit be exempt from this?? Is it just Political Correctness?
If there is an industry standard out there should NYC Dept. Personnel keep to it?
Purchasing Agent series will make it simplier I think. I don't know about transit.
Broadbanding is a response to the "it's not my job" attitude that civil servants are commonly believed to have. The idea is to get a title so narrow you don't have to do anything. Next thing you know, there is a job to be done, and someone available to do it, but nothing happens because it is out of title. The counter argument is that you don't want people doing work they are not qualified for.
My idea is to have a series of jobs within a title. The more you are willing and able to do, the higher your pay. If you show up and can only be a conductor, you get less money. Conductor or train operator, depending on what is needed (due to absences and such), more money. If you can also head to the signal tower if required, more money. I you can do some train maintenace, even more. If you can and will do all these things on your own initiative, and go out on the track and shovel it when it snows, to make the system work, big bucks, and well worth.
Ditto Fire Dept personnel who can fight the fire, drive the truck, inspect the building, work as an EMT, etc. Narrow titles are boring for good workers, and allow goldbricking by bad ones.
There is a germ of truth to what you say. And a counter as well. I believe this an area here the union and management should work together to forge an agreement. But then Management must stick to it, which they have been notorious for not doing so.
Conductor and train operator is not a title where you could do it. Tower operators and train dispatcher, yes. Car maintainer F, A, CI, and ABM. RCI and CME also. OK, cause I did all that work within one title at NJT while I was a car inspector. What about Signal maintainer and PD maintainer? I doubt it, too different.
But there is room for improvement, but there must be stict rules involving this, or before you know it, skilled technicians who are already underpaid, (electricians in the private sector make CONSIDERABLY more than CME's) will be sweeping when there are no broken down trains. Then TA will not hire as many cleaners, and when trains DO break down, no one will sweep. And you know it would happen.
There is a downside, true, and tasks have to be comparable. As a general rule, however, the more flexible the employee, the more they are work.
As for electricians in the private and sectors, unskilled labor earns more in the public sector, but skilled labor unfortunately earns less. The public is unwilling to tolerate the differences in earnings the marketplace has generated between different levels of skill.
what stations do you reccommend
except for the flushing # 7 line
and the Queensborugh Plaza
what stations do any of you
reccommend especially the stations
on or with R38 and older cars ??
( ill take shots of r40 and higher)
thank you for your list !!
please include the subway line #
or letter thank you send the list to
salaamallah@yahoo.com
thank you !!!!!!!!
Smith 9th on the F/G on the Southbound Side. Ave H Northbound on the Brighton are 2 that I can think of now.
City Hall was fun while it lasted. Easily the most beautiful station in the US, if not world (Moscow might have it beat though)
Rawson-33rd on the No. 7 with a train rounding the corner from Queensborough Plaza and the Manhattan skyline in the background.
How about the 168th Street Station 1/9. Great views from above the trains, gas lights, cavernous ceilings, tilework.
There are no gas lights in the subway.
This is 8 Street
The next stop on this W train will be Avenue C-14 Street.
What he meant was that there are lights at 168th Street that LOOK like gaslights. These dim fixtures contain mercury-vapor lamps and huge diffusers that make them even dimmer. It's a spooky station.
Beautiful stations? Montrose Avenue on the Canarsie Line, Astor Place on the #6, Utica Avenue on the A/C (best in IND), Fifth Avenue on the N/R, Borough Hall on the #4/#5, 66th Street on the #1/#9, Dyckman Street, also on #1/#9 all come to mind. There are numerous others.
Wayne
I have to add: Cortlandt (BMT),59th street (Lex, N/R) Complex
how about Wall Street on the lexington avenue line, Archer avenue on the J line.Pelham Parkway on the 2,5 line,the refurbished Nevins street 2,3,4,5 lines.137th street on the 1,9.
I like Euclid Avenue and Grant Avenue on the A line
Liberty, Shepherd and Van Siclen would fall into the same category - the blue tile there's a nicer color than the Lilac at Euclid and the Bottle Green at Grant. Grant has interesting features - I took about eight pictures there during my visit earlier in the year.
Fifth Avenue/53rd Street with its arched ceiling is a good shot too.
Wayne
Iwas at Fifth and 53rd this morning. The ceiling is filthy and need a good scrubbing.
Is that on the cover of a hagstrom subway map?
If you're looking for scenic backgrounds, try these:
- Stillwell Ave / Coney Island or West 8th St / Surf Ave (Astroland, Boardwalk & Beach in background)
- Ocean Pkwy (Brighton Line). Nice picture of the entire viaduct crossing Ocean Pkwy can be had from the Boardwalk
- Smith / 9th St (IND South Brooklyn Line - F Train)
- Marcy Ave (J/M/Z), end of Queens-bound platform. Nice picture with the Willie B in the background
- 125th St / Broadway (1/2/3/9) - Manhattan Valley Viaduct
- Dyckman St (1/9) - train coming out of the Ft Washington tunnel
- Marble Hill (Metro North - Hudson Line). Nice picture, ala Chicago, of the Broadway Bridge and the 1/2/3/9 trains crossing it, with Metro-North trains following the Harlem River in the background
- Whitlock Ave (6), Pelham-Bay Park bound platform. Picture of trains leaving/entering Elder Ave
- Broadway Junction / East New York. (J/L/Z/A/C). There's a lot going ont here now, with construction there and at Atlantic Ave
- 168th St/Broadway (1/9) - always liked that big arch in the station
- South Ferry (1/9). Nice job with the station rehab.
- The Franklin Ave shuttle. It's all new.
I suspect this would keep you busy for a while :)
--Mark
Only the 1 and 9 goes to 125-Bway and cross the Bway bridge.......
3TM
Allerton Av. The next station will be Pelham Pkwy. Transfer available to the P express across the platform. The Bx12 on the street level. Stand clear of the closing doors........
I really need to know the number of MVMs at Main Street on the 7 so I can make my list even. I'm sure at least one of you uses Main Street. I finally did Union Square today, and the Franklin Shuttle yesterday and Monday and I don't want an inconsistent part of my list. Here is what I will add:
Franklin Shuttle stations opened 10/18:
Prospect Park: 4
Others: 2
Union Square, opening unknown: 6
BTW, at this depot, we're starting to see customers who have bought the "Single Ride Ticket" out of those machines & use it on our bus. I'm seeing real numbers because we're getting paid for them vs. customer trying to use it for a free Transfer (which you can't get with one of these). Now that Main Street is added to 179th I expect the volume to keep increasing here. It will be interesting, at least to me, to see if tokens go down as this useage goes up.
Mr t__:^)
Until those things start giving out automatic transfers, I won't use them unless I need one ride or there is a line. I'll either buy a real card or get a token. Does anybody know why not only do the Single Ride tickets not have transfers but also have a two hour limit (a clear disadvantage over the token). If I want one ride, I could also find a discarded card and refill it.
This is Grand Street
The next stop on this W train will be Houston Street.
One comment: If the card is an expired "unlimited Card" we cannot add $1.50 to that card!
Also be sure to find a card that is undamaged. We reserve the right to issue a new card if the card presented is too dirty (can jam in our computer)or if the card is bent or the stripe is damaged- and the minimum for a new card is $3.00.
Next time you buy a card- save a used card for when you want 1 ride, or better yet- spend $15-get a free ride. Yopu have at least a year until the card expires and then you have a year to transfer the remaining balance to a new card which will then be good for at least another year and so on.
I don't use either PPR or Unlimited cards, but I keep a PPR card in my holder. It has $15 on it (I used up the first ride).
Our Station Agent friend makes a good point. Personaly I've asked various folks at TA why they came out with the green card, or why they put some many negitives restrictions on it ... have received no answer
BTW, this dumb thing doesn't even show up on any of the reports that come out of the system, so my firm has to wait until about the 15th of the next month to find out how many times it was used. Personaly I hope it DOES NOT catch on. The problem is the machine doesn't tell you what you're going to get when you request a one ride MC.
Disclaimer: Speaking just for myself here ...... not my firm or DOT
Mr t__:^)
Thurston brought up a good point. The RULES:
1- MUST be used within TWO hours.
2- NO free transfer between subway to bus or bus to subway. If you want the transfer you must buy a Gold MetroCard from the booth or the machine- minimum purchase is $3.00,and $4 for the funpass also available at the machine but NOT from the booth.
3- If you have any problems with the single ride card, the Station Agent can NOT replace the card,(But we can assist and if readable chances are you'be be allowed to enter the subway. Take the problem card to the station agent in the booth. Any Station Agent outside the booth can not see what is on the stripe- only the computer inside the booth can do that!)
maybe the customer with the bad card will think the Station Agent outside the booth can hold the card in question to their forehead and read the info like fortune teller
ha ha ha!!!
strange as it seems, some think exactly that! I have asked several cusotmers (and I am IN the booth) to let me see their cards so I can check the card and they hold it up to the window. "Let me see it" and they say "I am holding it up for you!". I then ask "please hand me the card and they finally get the message--sometimes,a nd other times they'll walk away angry or jump the turnstile.
Please re-read the memo; When one boards with a valid Single-Ride Ticket on the bus, a bus transfer IS then issued upon request of the customer.
You are correct, the green ticket DOES permit the bus driver to issue a blue transfer, IF the green ticket was valid when put in his/her farebox, versus if you had already used it on the subway (where you buy it) or on another bus & forgot to ask for a blue transfer.
Two other restrictions:
1. Use in two hours or it's worthless
2. NG for step up on Express bus
Reminder: If you pay in cash or by token on a local bus & ask for a blue transfer it's only good for free transfer to another local bus, i.e. NG to subway system (except in SI).
Mr t__:^)
10/21/99
Late in the afternoon,#2 trains were running north on the Lexingont Ave line. Annoucements told "because of an earlier incindent". Anybody know anything?
Bill Newkirk
How come there isn't much graffiti in the tubes? I haven't noticed much graffiti in the 60th street N/R tube, Steinway Tube(7), or any deep bored under-river subway tube. The E/F Express tunnels between Queens Plaza and Roosevelt ave (where expresses go to a lower level) are also mostly devoid of graffiti.
I guess it's so inhosptiable down there the bravest of souls are afraid to go down there.
Remember the TV show in the 80s with Linda Hamilton and Ron Perlman, Beauty and the Beast, maybe there is something down there
It's also a long way to next station in those locations. Even graffiti vandals don't want to get hit by a train. When they tag the tunnel areas near stations they wait until a train leaves, go down and do their "work", then come back to the station. Plenty of time at night between trains. I suppose they could use emergency exits, too, but those are far apart in river tunnels. They'd be seen and arrested, and they also might have to press themselves up against the wall in the curved bore river tunnels when a train came. I'm not sure how TA workers have the guts to do that, so I can't imagine your average graffiti vandal would take the chance.
Re: TA Workers in the tunnels.
Don't forget that the maintainence workers and inspectors at work in the tubes are trained to learn how to avoid oncoming trains by standing against the wall, on the catwalk or making use of those little alcoves that are built into some tunnels. Furthermore speed restrictions are put into place whenever TA crews are doing work on a revenue stretch of line and flagmen are posted at the end of the work zone. With strict adherance to saftey procedures thing would go smoothly.
Now if a graffitti vandal was foolish enough to go down into the Motague Tunnel (and I don't doubt the stupidity of these idiots anymore) he would be turned ito hambuger meat by a speeding R train before he had a chance to activate the spray can nozzle.
I agree that it does take a lot of guts to be able to work in the tunnels with the rats, homeless, electricty etc.
"I agree that it does take a lot of guts to be able to work in the tunnels with the rats, homeless, electricty etc. "
Not withstanding the dangers you mentioned above, they are by no means the greatest cause for injury & death of people working on the tracks. The two greatest causes of injury & death are:
1) Employee inattention - Train Operator and/or track worker simply not paying attention.
2) Carelessness. When out in the early morning hours, I'm still amazed at the number of improperly flagged work areas there are and how many people actually place themselves in harms way for no valid reason.
Yeah, but if you examine the area just before the N train enters the tunnel, it is covered in graffiti. The MTA and the DOT (Queensboro Bridge) need to get their acts together and clean that unsightly mess up.
I always thought that graffiti was displayed , or created (?), so that the graffiti-ists' work, or message, could be seen by others---
not many people would see it in a remote location,( in addition to the other reasons noted previously.)
Where can I find pictures of the subway tunnels themselves, such as the different tube shapes, on this or any other web site?
What are some of the best movies involving the subway, the subway as the main setting. Can someone provide a list of movies where the nyc subway is a prominent fixture or where the subway is the focus of the movie. I already know of and seen the movie "The Taking of Pelham 123".
Here we go again
Browse this site - there's a full list.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There's a lot more to nycsubway.org than just SubTalk. Take a look at our Subway Bibliography. It includes a list of subway-related films.
-Dave
The bibliography didn't list "Crockadile Dundee". There is a scene at the end of the movie that takes place I believe at the 59th and Lexington Ave. Station at the N & R. Paul Hogan is trying to get to Linda Kozlowsky through the crowded station and ends up walking on top of the people to get to her.
That scene in "Crocodile Dundee" (I) was SUPPOSED to be 59th Street/Columbus Circle on the IND, at least if you follow which way Linda Koslowski ran from the Plaza Hotel. (I say the IND, as it had
island platforms, whereas the IRT has only outside local platforms at Columbus Circle.)
HOWEVER -- before y'all say I'm wrong -- I know it was NOT REALLY there. It was filmed at the lower level of Ninth Avenue on the West End/Culver.
Thank you all for the help. I haven't browsed this site in about three months so I may have had missed any discussion on subway movies. Judging by the first response I take it that this may be a topic that has been brought up many times. I have actually forgot about the subway bibliography at this site.
Thats OK. I've always enjoyed that thread and don't mind it being repeated.
Check out a movie called the "Warriors", made in 1979. Not only is it one of the weirdest movies ever made, it shows the entire subway system in probably it's most pathetic state.
Hopefully, you saw the original Pelham. The remake isn't worth seeing.
Watch "Die Hard with a Vengence" and you will see the only redbird with a cab on both the left and right side of the stormdoor.
10/24/99
Yeah!,and add a door to bridge the two cabs and voila!,you have a full width cab! ON AN R-29!! YIKES!!
Bill Newkirk
Die hard with a vengance is a good movie that has a subway crash as part of the main event.
Too bad the BMT standards were never used in a crash scene. Then again, they'd probably emerge unscathed, so that would take all the suspense out of the plot.
Our friend Todd will probally like this one ... Nov. issue of Model Railroader includes the second part of an article on creating a HO layout of the "T". Photo shows a PCC headed for Park Street after departing "Reservoir".
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Mr. T for the info! I'll have to pick up a copy.
two bells...
First pardon me if I've missed a previous post on this subject ...
Nov. issue of Model Railroader has an adv. for the infamous electrics.
Road names incl. Amtrak, MARC, SEPTA & NJT.
Interesting is that this plastic (probally affordable) model will operated from O/H and 2nd rail (don't have 3rd rail power in HO).
Wonder if they designed in cranky operation ?
Mr t__:^)
Heh, actually, I've only gotten stuck on an AEM-7 pulled train once, and it was the speed control that died. I've heard amtrak people say it's not an issue of if the thing's gonna die, but *when*. the reliability may not be totally there, but the AEM-7 is a much more worthy sucessor to the GG-1 than the E60 ever was!!! I personally think they're cute. Small, quiet, and they can pull trains too :)
Just hate the pantographs on them.
Somewhere in my list of stuff to do when I have the time will be to do an HO layout with overhead and have little MP-54s and GG-1s running on it :)
It's been much too long since my Budd RDC or C-Liner/RS-3 pulled some NH cars on my layout (the room became a bedroom when the boys & girls didn't want to bunk togather anymore ... I have two of each).
Mr t__:^)
Oh Yes, the same magazine had a ad for a 3 car GG1 set with track and transformer for about $99.00. Boy am I tempted, after 20 years my last GG 1(HO) finally died)
Try N scale - there are excellent GG-1s out there, and Con-Cor ran a reasonable RDC a few years ago (unfortunately only in three car sets, two powered, one dummy, and one was the US Mail version). The East Penn Traction Club has trolley modules that run from the wire in N scale, and Ntrak also has the NCat standards for catenary operation.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hate to say it, but that model is O-scale, not HO.
It works on either pantograph power or two-rail power, but
not "Lionel" type O-scale (3-rail) track.
Atlas has not announced an HO scale version yet. Just checked their
website, it says NO plans for an HO scale version yet
They ARE coming out in HO scale. In fact, Capelli hobbies (Market St. bet 3rd & 4th) in Philadelphia has the prototype. Check the Atlas website again
It's true, they are, and I can't wait. They've been annonunced for some time. Check Walhers' site as well.
Saturday-October 23rd, 1999
10am-6pm
BagaTelle Restaurant
12 St. Marks place (8th Street)
Between 2nd and 3rd Ave.
6 train to Astor place
N/R trains to 8th Street
Any reason why the Brooklyn-bound trains crawl into the Pacific Street Station? They crawl about halfway into the station, then speed up before stopping. Was there a derailing or accident at the station?
Wheel detectors are activated.They govern the speed of the train as it goes over the switches.If the system detects the train speeding,the automatic brakes are activated on the train.At the middle of Pacific St station,you'll notice a "WD END" sign.This means the train is out of wheel detector territory.
There is one of those damned wheel detectors that slow trains switching over from the local track. The B train, coming through the bypass tracks at Dekalb, don't have to deal with this.
I hate the wheel detectors. They are showing up on the 7 line eastbound after GCT towards the Steinway tunes. They are on the IRT Lexington avenue line between GCT and Brooklyn Bridge.
The result is a slower, longer ride. Subways should be getting faster, not slower.
Well we can all thank our good buddy Robert Ray for all these wheel detectors.
Who?
The drunken train operator who killed 5 people near Union Square in 1991. The excerpt below is copied from
http://www.nycsubway.org/lines/eastside/index.html
(DAVE PIRMAN: OK to copy from one place on this site to another?)
"On 8/29/1991, an accident occured just north of the [Union Square] station, killing five people in one of the worst wrecks since the Malbone St. Disaster of 1918. The train operator, Robert Ray, was drunk, and had been overshooting platforms on the entire run. At 14th Street the train was to be shifted to the local track due to repairs. He had been running the train at 40 MPH in a 10 MPH zone and took the switch so fast that only the front of the first car made the crossover. The third and fourth cars ended up perpendicular to the tracks, having sheared off support columns and split in half. The line suffered heavy damage and service was disrupted for six days as transit workers toiled around the clock to clean up the wreckage. The entire infrastructure, including signals, the switches, track, roadbed, cabling, and 23 support columns needed to be replaced. As of 1997 the destroyed R62 subway cars can still be seen near the south end of the Concourse Yard from Bedford Park Station. The motorman Ray was sentenced to 15 years in prison for the worst subway accident since 1928."
I don't know the point you are trying to make. However, Mr. Rey is where he belongs.
I was responding to KMA's question "Who?" [was Robert Ray] in the previous message in the thread. Should have copied it in, sorry.
Robert Ray was released last year sometime. He will NOT be working at the TA though.
Perhaps he could work for the TWU. He sounds like organizer material. Better still, he could be on the safety committee....
Touche`
[Robert Ray was released last year sometime. He will NOT be working at the TA though.]
He'll claim that his alcohol problems were an ADA-protected disability, and a court will order him rehired as a T/O with back pay.
[Robert Ray was released last year sometime. He will NOT be working at the TA though.]
He'll claim that his alcohol problems were an ADA-protected disability, and a court will order him rehired as a T/O with back pay.
I don't think he'd have the nerve, but with the right attorney he might be able to make a case. He could argue on two fronts, that the alcoholism was a disability that he has overcome, and that, barring drinking, he was a competent T/O, and
Insofar as his culpability in the wreck is concerned, he paid his debt to society, and should not be barred from legal employment.
He might be barred if his parole forbids employment in the transportation field or if T/O employment is barred to ex-felons. Is it?
No it isn't illegal to hire convicted felons. It is illegal to disciminate in the hiring of people based on criminal conviction. As long as he doesn't lie on his application for employment which is a legal document of which the charge has resulted in dismissals years after hiring, he can resume a job that will accept him as an employee.
You can thank those wonderful wheel detectors on the switch from F1 to F3 track north of Pacific St. Between them and waiting for those geniuses at Murphy Tower to give us the line-up at 68 ball (south end of 36th Street Station), it defeats the whole purpose of the N line running express in Brooklyn. I've had more than a few instances where we made all stops from Pacific Street to 59th Street southbound and made better time than if we ran express.
I call it taking the "rapid" out of rapid transit!
Well it's still faster than walking. Or is it?
I know that the Bombardier R142s won't be here until at least december 13th, but I was wondering if it is possible that the Kawasaki order will start arriving sooner. If anybody has an idea, or had heard anything, please let me know. Thanks! -Nick
IIRC, the contract with Kawasaki requires delivery of its pilot set of R-142As 6 months after the delivery of the pilot set of Bombardier R-142s. Since Kawasaki has to wait for Bombardier to supply certain technical details about its cars (because Kawasaki's cars have to be compatible with Bombardier's), it's unlikely that Kawasaki could deliver before Bombardier does.
David
[I know that the Bombardier R142s won't be here until at least december 13th, but I was wondering if it is possible that the Kawasaki order will start arriving sooner. If anybody has an idea, or had heard anything, please let me know. Thanks! -Nick]
On Wednesday night, I saw cars 3806 and 3807 (which are not in revenue service yet) run through kenmore station. The interiors didn't even look complete yet, I guess the folks of the M.B.T.A and Breda are still working out the final quirks. But it may still be awhile before they enter service, because the M.B.T.A. is unhappy with the type 8's performance (there are some problems with the wheels and the breaks), and how long Breda is taking to build them. By this point, 45 type 8s should have been running, but only 5 are in revenue service, and only a handful more have been built. The M.B.T.A has paid have the cost ($110 million) for these cars, and payments have been suspended until Breda can get its act together.
Some more hoardings have come down at Union Square, and two of the terra-cotta eagles bearing "14" shields, remnants of the old downtown local platform, are finally available for inspection in the west passage overlooking the IRT tracks. They're still covered with plaster dust, so if you want a good look at 'em, bring a bottle of Fantastik and some paper towels.
On another cheerful note, new tile has finally begun to appear on the platforms of my favorite disaster area, Canal St. IRT.
Curious to know if the row of chunks of old wall with original tile on them (in the new pasageway on the west side above the 4/5/6 tracks) were in the current position when they were walls of the old local platform, or whether they were moved there? Anyone know?
Last weekend, I finally got to see the "Big Eye," otherwise known as Oculus. Peggy has described the project in the Line-by-Line section.
The thought occured to me that NYC Transit should have a contest, whereby people can guess the number of tiles in the mosaic. (Assuming they even know!) Perhaps the winner could get a year's worth of monthly Metrocards?
If you haven't seen this piece of art, GO! It's at the newly refurbished transfer between the A/C/Eand 1/9 at World Trade Center.
See! I told you big brother is watching you.
I believe the transfer point is Chambers St/WTC and Park Pl. Between the A,C,E and 2,3 trains.......
3TM
Williamsbridge Rd. The next station will be Bronxdale Ave. Stand Clear...........
Not 1/9, 2/3! These people BTW, are the same ones who designed Mnemonics, a bunch of glass blocks installed in the walls all over my school that include interesting artifacts and there is a separate glass block for each graduating class as far back as 1904! Although no class before 1992 actually contributed anything (unless it was the alumni involved). There are also empty blocks with special screws for easy removal for every graduating class as far as the Twenty-second Century. Back to transit, the class of 1996, in their block includes the old token (bulls eye) the new token and the Metrocard (then blue). I haven't paid attention since then, so I don't know what 1997-99 put in.
This is 34 Street
The next stop on this W train will be 42 Street-United Nations, change there for the V, 4, 5, 6, 7 and shuttle to Times Square.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I for one behold an ugly spot on the wall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
10/23/99
RE: OCULUS IDEA
I saw this big to do and I figured something. Since steel dust will eventually dirty up this "artwork" will the TA assign a porter at least 4 feet tall to mop the tiles? And what cleaning solution will be in the wringer bucket? VISINE??
Bill Newkirk
Actually the eyeball in the center of "Oculus" isn't all THAT big - maybe three feet wide. It's the rest of it that spreads out allovertheplace. There are depicted the continents of the Earth floating in a sea of tile. If I had to venture a guess as to how many tiles were in the mosaic, I would have to say somewhere around 200,000.
A typical station's friezes on the Canarsie Line contains about 2.5 million bits of tile (Wilson Avenue has roughly half that). Those that don't have friezes in the entranceways (i.e. Grand, Halsey, Graham, 3rd Avenue) have about 3/4 of that number.
Wayne
Did (or do) the BMT Broadway/Fourth Avenue stations have the same figures before they were uglified?
Come to think of it, that's entirely possible because those mosaics were made up entirely of 1/2" tile bits. Canarsie line stations have those big randomly-cut chunks in the center of the frieze, but the tile pieces around the edges and in the tablets are often smaller than 1/2".
Wayne
The MTA has occasionally released monthly or daily ridership figures, but not annual figures that may be compared with those in the footnote in Under the Sidewalks of New York. But the 1996-1997 figures the MTA sent to the American Public Transit Association, and that were published on its website, are stunning.
Ridership hit 1,352 million in 1996, a level not seen since 1960. In 1997, it rose to 1,580 million, a level not reached since the early 1950s. Moreover, preliminary data show a substantial percent gain from the first quarter of 1997 to the first quarter of 1998, and from the first quarter of 1998 to the first quarter of 1999. If those gains hold for entire years, ridership could reach 1,750 million for all of 1999. That's a level only reached in the 1930s and 1940s.
It's because of those Yankeetrocards.
Metrocards do make a difference. The system needs riders to be effective especially off peak where people take extra rides because they can with the card.
The more they ride the more they will demmand better service.
In several cities around the world, they usually reward the pax for buying cards with the last ride free no matter how far they get, Since NY is one fare for the system, why don t they give a extra ride free, for a reward. I have a feeling in a couple years, once everyone is getting used to the Metrocards, that the system will operate like BART , WMATA and other systems, not using a flat fare system, but a mileage based system. They will not raise the basic fare but will increase it if you ride longer. Example all rides So of 59th will be $1.50 but outside will get higher the further you ride
> Since NY is one fare for the system, why don t they give a extra
> ride free, for a reward.
They do. If you purchase a metrocard of $15 or more you get 10% of your cash value "extra" for free (one free ride for $15, two free rides for $30 etc).
-Dave
Outer areas of the city made sure electronic fare collection was implemented with no "out-swipe", so the fare must remain unitary. But we do have a zone system -- one price for the inner city, another for commuter rail. If you are paying more to travel farther, you might as well go faster and get a seat. That 75 minute ride for Rockaway to Manhattan not of greater value than my 25 minute ride.
[Outer areas of the city made sure electronic fare collection was implemented with no "out-swipe", so the fare must remain unitary. But we do have a zone system -- one price for the inner city, another
for commuter rail. If you are paying more to travel farther, you might as well go faster and get a seat.]
And maybe not even a seat. Quite a few people take the LIRR to and from Forest Hills rather than use the nearby Queens Boulevard subway lines. Yet particularly in the morning, the trains stopping at Forest Hills are SRO. You might say that the LIRR riders get a faster trip than on the subway, but they pay more and don't necessarily get seats.
That's what the $15 Metrocard does - eleven rides for the price of ten.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
you'd have to modify the turnstiles to swipe on exit which would create chaos. swipe to enter and if your card doesn't have sufficient funds on exit you wouldn't be able to exit unless you add to your farecard, sounds fundamentally a failure for New York City. Besides with our ridership volume it woould be quite dangerous...
They are doing it in London, if I understand right
The point already made about WMATA also applies to London--there's a lot more room around fare control in stations of both of these systems for people who've underpaid to mill around, look confused, and eventually be helped by staff or somebody else who knows how to put more money on the farecard. The Underground actually keeps extra staff around ticket halls at stations much frequented by tourists to help them operate the ticket machines, which because of the zone system are very complex.
The other problem with modifying the fare to a system similar to BART or the DC Metro is it would benefit people who live in Manhattan the most, since they are less likely to be taking long trips to the other boroughs than people who live in Brooklyn, Queens and the Bronx are to be headed into Manhattan for work or other activites.
Even if you did it by keeping the maximum fare at $1.50 and lowering it for shorter trips, there would still be community activists who would cry foul.
We all know that if the shorter trips were lowered in price, eventually the longer ones WILL increase in price, so the community activists' concerns would not be unfounded.
This is 169 Street
The next stop on this W train will be 179 Street, change there for the F.
Sounds like a Queen/Brooklyn/Bronx vs. Manhattan fight would brew of this. I really doubt it's gonna happen.
These things are hard to measure...but I wonder how much more it costs the TA to get you from WTC to Parsons Blvd, for instance, than it costs the TA to get you from WTC to Penn Station? I would not be surprised if a reasonable study said the difference is pretty small.
That also bucks the "One City, One Fare" trend. If they tried to implement that some politician would get a lot of points shooting it down.
10/24/99
There will never be a "zoned" fare scructure like WMATA,etc. People not having sufficient fare to exit will cause a pile up at the exit turnstiles. WMATA has sufficient room for people to "step asise" and let traffic pass so they can buy extra fare to exit. Some exits on the NYCTA don't have the room for this and there's just enough room if any for people to exit. You know,New Yorkers have allways been in a rush to get from point A to B,that's always been the history.I know it's not fair to pay $1.50 to go from Cortleyou Road to Beverly Road on the (D) while paying $1.50 to go from 207th St in upper Manhattan to Far Rockaway,Queens. It's not fair but it's the easiest way out,(no pun intended)!
Bill Newkirk
It's Yankeerocards, otherwise the card in Queens would be the Mettrocard.
This is 59 St-Queensborough Bridge, change here for the N, Q, R, V and Z trains.
The next stop on this W train will be Roosevelt Island.
WOW! And thats in SPITE of the crappy NYCT management! Imagine if they had decent management like,say, Metro-North or NJT? Folks who actually know how to run a railroad (sort of...).
No one who has both worked at the TA, and worked with/interfaced with other public agencies, believes the TA is mismanaged in the post-Gunn era. When it comes to mismanagment, there are much worse than the TA.
I stand corrected...
The figures on ridership are indeed amazing but is a comparison with the 1930s/40s realistic? I am from Sydney, visited NY two weeks ago, and really used the subway thanks to your internet site. But have a look at the 1948 map to see how few transfer stations then existed. Today they are all over the place and the system is a bit larger (no 3rd Ave El but hoe many rode that?); rides are much longer to outer suburbs.
My question: is the method of counting 'rides' today strictly comparable with that in use 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago before Metrocard?
Perhaps a more revealing figure would be revenue (ie, $$$s) taken into the till. What revenue did the TA get in 1995/6, compared to 1998/9 for example? And are the new figures given for the subway ONLY or combined bus/subway. With more easy interchange by use of Metrocard to/from subway/bus today is there some double counting in today's figures compared to 1940? Is that available?
Some detailed analysis would be valuable; operators would already know and perhaps increased services. Certainly some lines in the rush hours are as heavily used as ever, compared to my first visit to NY in 1960.
Any comments?
The APTA says "unlinked trips," which are counted the same everywhere.
The figures I cite are for the subway and SIRT (1.7 billion in 1998 preliminary, up from 1.0 billion in 1991). The bus had another 635 million.
The introduction of free transfers caused bus ridership to spike, as those who used to walk hopped a bus to the subway. The subway increase was gradual at first, at a level I might have expected, but seems to have accelerated in the last three years, to a level I find hard to believe.
The figures on ridership are indeed amazing but is a comparison with the 1930s/40s realistic? I am from Sydney, visited NY two weeks ago, and really used the subway thanks to your internet site. But have a look at the 1948 map to see how few transfer stations then existed. Today they are all over the place and the system is a bit larger (no 3rd Ave El but hoe many rode that?); rides are much longer to outer suburbs.
My question: is the method of counting 'rides' today strictly comparable with that in use 50 years ago, or even 10 years ago before Metrocard?
Perhaps a more revealing figure would be revenue (ie, $$$s) taken into the till. What revenue did the TA get in 1995/6, compared to 1998/9 for example? And are the new figures given for the subway ONLY or combined bus/subway. With more easy interchange by use of Metrocard to/from subway/bus today is there some double counting in today's figures compared to 1940? Is that available?
Some detailed analysis would be valuable; operators would already know and perhaps increased services. Certainly some lines in the rush hours are as heavily used as ever, compared to my first visit to NY in 1960.
Any comments?
It depends on the point of view.
I personally think that the revenue figure is/would be unilluminating, because I look at public transit in terms of its overall contribution to the transportation picture in an urban area. The amount of money the transit agency is taking in is irrelevant from that (admittedly limited) point of view.
From my point of view, the interesting question is whether the additional trips (ridership *has* gone up significantly) are completely new trips, or whether they are mode switches -- i.e., the transit system attracting riders from other modes, particularly the private automobile. They're surely a mixture of both, but I'd like to know in what proportion.
I was just reading the thread on ridership. The
appearance of major MTA surpluses has been puzzling
to me in light of the Unlimited Metro Card,
reduction of Express Bus Fares to $3 from $4 , the
$4 Fun Pass. Last Saturday, with a $4 Fun Pass, I must have entered and reentered the system 7
or 8 times. Do they count as revenue a monthly
prepaid card that might extend past the current
accounting period? Does $100 million actually
exist? I would like to see that money in front of
me, and I can guarantee if they turn their backs the
$100 million surplus will disappear along with me.
Don't worry though, I would continue posting on
SubTalk no matter where I went. There would be no
relief from my silliness.
Are there any hard nosed accountants here who have
any thoughts on whether the surplus is an accounting
trick? Our city has often used shuffling of moneys,
or deferred payrolls, or accelerated tax payments to
make figures work out. Our Federal Government does
all kind of creative things with Social Security
overpayments to make the Federal Budget figures have
a rosy spin.
Rondo Hatton was an actor who had some sort of birth defect that resulted in a large head with somewhat unattractive features. Played bad guy/oafish type characters in 40' flicks.
He played the Oxton Creeper in the Sherlock Holmes movie,"The Pearl of Death."
Carl M.
THE CREEPER..actually billed as "the ugliest man in movies" Poor guy who had (I believe) 'Elephant Man Syndrome' and made the most of it... (I've read the Medved brothers books too!)
(Are there mode switches or more trips). My guess is that it is mode switches and additional trips due to population switches.
Ten years ago, you had a huge, non-college educated, elderly white population in the city -- the people whose children moved to the suburbs from 1950 to 1970. They didn't move around that much, and when they did it was by car, since in their view the subway had gone to hell.
Now you have immigrant familes in their place. The proportion of the city that consists of immigrants and the children of immigrants is close to 60 percent. Throw in the yuppies that moved in from the rest of the country, and you have a new population riding the trains. With more jobs and welfare reform requiring people to show up for workfare, there are many more reasons to move around the city.
The unlimited ride pass has certainly added to the number of off-peak trips, but on the subway these are "real trips." I think a lot of the bus trips are superfluous -- "the subway is five blocks away, but there is a free bus at the corner so I'll hop on and not walk." So the gain in bus ridership did not excite me. The gain in subway ridership did.
I think its hard to measure the acutual amount of trips taken on the subway by counting the numbers at the turnstiles. I know for me that since the 7 day and 30 pass came about, there are many times I walk through the subway to get to where I am going at lunch. When I used to work on Cortlandt St., I would go to lunch on Chambers St., swipe my card and walk the entire lenght of the Chambers Street IND station at platform level, without getting on a train. I would swipe my card on the average of 24 times a week, even thought most of the extra times, I didn't ride. On days when I was using a standard Metrocard, I would not do this.
The station's mezzanine level has a non-fare control area the entire length. It's my favorite route when I go to the World Trade Center.
RUE4the walk.
I have used that also. I used to walk up and down to the platform to get the exercise of walking the steps!
Now I work in the Grand Central area. I swipe to get to and from the Channin Building.
Which brings up a subject Ive always wanted the answer to...Before the fare was doubled to ten cents in '48 (?), there were a LOT less FREE transfers between the various divisions (and before 1940 between the various lines..). For example, to transfer between the IRT and BMT at Times Square or Union Square used to cost another nickel. I wonder how much this inflated the 'ridership' figures of pre-1948....
I'm probably going to get flamed but good for this, but...
Would you all please stop talking about the Mets, and the Yankees, and the Braves, and the LA Coliseum, and... (ad nauseum)? This isn't a sports message board, it's a New York City subway message board. Many of the postings over the past two weeks have had nothing _whatsoever_ to do with transit, let alone New York City subways.
Don't get me wrong -- I'm a baseball fan, and I found the NLCS thrilling. But this isn't the place to talk about it!
OK, all -- go into flame mode...NOW!
David
I do not think it will stop until after the Series..........
3TM
Bronxdale Av. The next station will be White Plains Rd. Transfer available to the Bx22 and Bx39 on the street level. Stand Clear of the closing doors............
You're right. We may all be railfans, but we're also baseball fans. happy World Series. Don't forget to take the train to the Stadium, be it the IRT or IND!!
Talking about sports, anyone know who won the 5th at Yonkers?
I watched the Mets with great interest. Too bad they didn't make it.
Sports and baseball is as much a part of NY as the Subway. A Mets Yanks series would have been exciting. Sorry it didn't happen> I was sure looking forward to it. Atlanta is not who I was looking for.
Go Yanks
Just let it die down, people will stop soon.
This is 42 Street-United Nations, change here for the V, 4, 5, 6, 7 and shuttle to Times Square
The next stop on this W train will be 50 Street.
>>This is 42 Street-United Nations, change here for the V, 4, 5, 6, 7 and shuttle to Times Square
The next stop on this W train will be 50 Street.
I've been following the progress of your W train with great interest--if I get it right, it comes out of Rutgers Tunnel, turns east a bit, then joins the 2nd Avenue line at 14th St? The hitch with such a routing (which I noticed when something similar turned up in the RPA plan, that's why it's on my mind) is that, while it would serve a bunch of residential districts that need a subway line, it wouldn't take those people anyplace they might then need to go. (Even 42nd St. and 2nd Av. is a pretty fair hike from any very dense commercial development.) If the line doesn't have stops either in the financial district or in Midtown (i.e., west of 3rd Av.) it won't be anything more useful than the G train. RPA envisioned a spur directly to Grand Central under 43rd St.; I'd terminate your train there, instead of relying on a long transfer passageway, and send another service from Lower Manhattan to the Upper East Side or Queens.
Otherwise--you're on a roll!
I don't know what to do. All the connecting passageways between Second Avenue and other lines (except where they intersect, like 14 or Houston or 125) are via moving walkway. I want to reroute the W to Times Square, make a P (stop snickering!) from TS to 179 (I might extend that, but am worried about duplication with the new J/Z subway) and a T from Whitehall/2 to Fordham Plaza as a new 2 Ave full length local. But I am worried that the P would too closely duplicate the 7.
Due to an earlier incident, this W train will be held in the station. For alternative services, please go upstairs and get a block ticket.
I just read the RPA plan, and (coincidentally, I might add), it's Laurelton to Gravesend service is similar to my W train. I will resume service immediately
Thank you for waiting, the next stop on this W train will be Roosevelt Island, change there for the Z.
Phew--I was starting to feel like the sick passenger! They seem to have stopped printing that odd little booklet--"What do you do if you're the sick passenger?"--so I was at a loss. ;)
Both of New York's baseball teams (as were the two traiterous teams who left town) have the subway to thank for part of their popularity. Every major league baseball stadium (there have been five, if you include Highlander Statium) have been adjacent to a major subway line. Without the subway, it would have been next to impossible for the amout of fans to have attended the games before everyone had private automobiles. So the sports talk here is as relevent as anything else talked about here.
While we're at it, both the Knicks and Rangers stink so I don't expect too much to be written about them.
I see the point, but I don't agree with it. What does which pitcher throwing which pitch to what batter in what inning have to do with which subway line serves which stadium?
If people were writing about, say, how NYCT handled crowds associated with the games (which I believe a few people did), I would say THOSE were relavent comments. Leaving Kenny Rogers in Game 6 instead of going with Octavio Dotel, while certainly worthy of study, has NOTHING to do with the performance of the #7 line, which is what this board's all about.
David
[Both of New York's baseball teams (as were the two traiterous teams who left town) have the subway to thank for part of their popularity. Every major league baseball stadium (there have been five, if you include Highlander Statium) have been adjacent to a major subway line. Without the subway, it would have been next to impossible for the amout of fans to have attended the games before everyone had private automobiles. So the sports talk here is as relevent as anything else talked about here.]
I don't remember seeing anything about the LA Coliseum. The team I despise the most plays there. Hey, Notre Dame came back from 21 points down to beat 'em.
That was a great win Steve but I still think Bob Davie sucks and that Notre Dame will never be any good until his sorry ass is jettisoned. They barely beat Navy last week. This guy is a loser.
I agree Steve about Hoover St Tech. As they say about that school, PAY YOUR FEE-GET YOUR DEGREE, but they do have some Grad Schools though
What movie actor rode home on the subway with his winning Oscar Award (hint this occurred in the 1980's)? Name the actor, his movie and what line he took to get home.
The winner's prize: knowing that he/she has a mind that is testamount to a storehouse of useless information ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
[What movie actor rode home on the subway with his winning Oscar Award (hint this occurred in the 1980's)? Name the actor, his movie and what line he took to get home.]
My guess would be F. Murray Abraham, who won for _Amadeus_ in 1985. I remember reading in an interview at the time that he lived in New York rather than California. As far as the line is concerned, I'll say the late, unlamented JFK Express (he won the Oscar in Los Angeles).
Robert DeNiro (_Raging Bull_, 1981) is also a NYC resident, though I don't know if he was one at the time. I would doubt that he's the answer to your question, as even back then he was a little too high-profile for the subway (celebrities generally shun public
contact except at preplanned events). F. Murray Abraham, in contrast, was not that widely known before he won his Oscar, and his win for _Amadeus_ hardly converted him into an "A list" star. He probably could have gotten away with riding the subway.
I was passing through Prince St. today on a downtown R train and noticed a section of the 1970s renovation tile was pulled down and the original tile exposed. I've also noticed in Prince, 8th, 23rd and 28th St. stations, there are small drillings and construction markings on the renovation tile. Is it finally coming down?
Mike
I sure hope so. If they do half as good a job in fixing up those stations that they did on the 5th Ave. station then that line will really look a lot better. Of course, express service would be even better.
I hope they leave the stations as is. I love the retro look. It reminds me of the subway in years past.
You must not be talking about the Broadway stations. These tiles cover over the original 1915 tile with UGLY 1970s tile.
This train is being held in this station momentarily, we will be moving shortly.
When they first redid the Broadway line in '69/70 or so, I thought it was the cat's meow. How modern it looked then. But now, retro is the way to go; they're redoing subway stations to look like it's 1910 again, and bringing back the old castiron lamppost designs. I have a feeling in 10 years, we'll be in the mood for a mod, go-go 1960s space age look again. It all goes in cycles.
I think it was wrong for them to remove all the old tiles for the new ones. They can keep a couple of the cinderblock and tall tile stations, in fact, I advocated that the Second Avenue line have stations which depict every era in station construction. I actually think it's wrong to rip out all of the 1960-70 era tiles. They can keep them at Grand Street or other stations with their original construction.
Grand Street is probably the best example of the mid-60s scheme. The stations on the IRT that used the scheme were butt-ugly and I'm glad they're gone for the most part.
For my money, the WORST, UGLIEST station re-do was Hoyt Street (early 1980s). Horizontal red stripes on a beige background. Yeccchhh.
Yeah, but aren't there a couple of stations that were originally built with that tile in the Sixties? Like the stations on the Chystie Connector? Those should stay as is ... the older BMT stations should be returned to something approximating what they originally were.
The only staton in that style which I like is 57th/6th Ave. The rest are ugly (Grant Ave., Grand St.).
Tear down those ugly 70's tile, at least in Manhattan. The 4th Ave local stations can be left alone, so we can remember what the whole line looked like.
Actually, 57/6 is the one I despise. It lacks the colored stripe. That station is so retro, on the mezzanine you have the marble used in that period construction, the period tile on the platform, a phone booth and a 1976 subway map inside the fare controls on the back of the 1999 one.
This is Cooper Avenue-Glendale
The next stop on this W train will be Woodhaven Boulevard
That's precisely why I like this station. I would assume that this is what the all Second Ave. line stations would have looked like had it been built during the 60's like it was supposed to be.
Had the city's fiscal troubles not intervened, considering how much had been built by 1975, the Second Avenue line would have opened in the 80s. So it would probably look like 21 Street-Queensbridge or Jamaica-Van Wyck.
This is Persons Boulevard, change for F and R trains.
The next stop on this W train will be 169 Street.
>>>That station is so retro, on the
mezzanine you have the marble used in that period construction, the period tile on the
platform, a phone booth and a 1976 subway map inside the fare controls on the back of the
1999 one. <<<
I was on the New Lots el platform yesterday and there is still a 1980s era subway map there. It's got the Train To The Plane airplane logo on it.
This is 73rd/Parsons
The next stop on this 7 train will be Union Turnpike
When I was there, I examined the weathered map thoroughly. The logo was there to commemorate the end of the JFK express, making it a 1990 map.
This is Miniscule Lateral Driveway
The next stop on this VV train will be 190 Street-Onion Turnpike
I never realized that my W train was a revival of the double letters, it's a local version of the V in Midtown! Now imagine if there was a UU train and a W train? I might as well just take a P, or take an I out.
This is 190 Street-Confederacy Thruway
The next stop on this W train will be Francis Lewis Boulevard, change there for the F, U trains.
I read somewhere recently about Prince Street, 8th Street, 23rd Street, and City Hall being slated for station renovations in the not too distant future. Nothing about 28th Street, however. I'm assuming that the 'old' look will be restored, just as the work done at Fifth Avenue and Cortlandt Street on the Broadway BMT.
Will any uglified stations remain ugly? I think that one needs to remain as a testament to the stupidity of the era. Although I don't think we should be as kind to Madison Square Garbage.
I take the A to the L to get to Canarsie, but thought I'd do another Franklin Shuttle run to get an idea of the evening rush-hour ridership.
So from Downtown Brooklyn I rode a New Lots #4 train to Franklin and walked through to Botanic Gardens station. There I found an R-68 waiting for a red signal to change. I asked the T/O what was the problem. He told me that he was awaiting the southbound (Prospect Park bound) train to get past Park Place station and switch over to clear our route. That, unfortunately is the result of the usual short-sighted TA decision-making. (Shooting themselves in the foot once again -- elminiating SBK Parkville Junction was another).
The T/O also said that had the train had had a sick passenger or some kind of Police Action at Fulton or Park Place -- because of one-track operation -- Franklin traffic northbound would have to cease at Botanic Garden. The only saving grace is the new walkway to connect with IRT lines should Franklin service be disrupted.
Doug aka BMTman
Who really cares if theres a bottleneck or not? The line doesn't really go anywhere!
Shhhh, Jeff.
If you promise not to complain about the Franklin Shuttle, too much we'll see if we can't have the Lexington L put back for you.
But it will be single track. ;-)
Shhhh, Jeff.
If you promise not to complain about the Franklin Shuttle too much, we'll see if we can't have the Lexington L put back for you.
But it will be single track. ;-)
Maybe it should have been converted to LRT instead
The Lex didn't go anywhere either.
So the Myrtle then!
Neither the Myrtle nor the Lex go anywhere.
Any more.
The Myrtle runs from Metropolitan Avenue to Bay Parkway! And the Lex is the most crowded line in the entire subway!
I Think he was talking of the old BMT Brooklyn Els in Brooklyn. If there is a bottleneck, they may just wind up just using one train like the did in the 50s in non rush hours
I know. You can't take a joke?
This is Roosevelt Island, last stop in Manhattan, change here for the Z.
The next stop on this W train will be 21 Street-Queensbridge.
The word is
INEVITABLE!!!
Like this kind of stuff wasn't predictable.
I was many times on a Franklin train at Dean Street waiting for a train in Franklin to clear the interlocking--now they've moved the entire circus a half-mile south.
Coming soon! They decide having to operate what is almost a long passing siding from Park Place to Prospect Park is too muc trouble, so they make the whole line single track. Shades of Culver shuttle.
My earliest childhood memories include seeing the disused El structure of the Culver shuttle near McDonald and Caton Aves., a short distance from my granparents' apt. You seem to imply that this was a one-track operation for all or part of its length. Would you care to share any details with those of us too young to remember?
The Culver shuttle was somewhat west of Caton & McDonald, but you would've seen it if you strolled a bit along Greenwood Cemetery or were on a B16 bus going that way.
What became the shuttle was originally the three-track main line before the IND was hooked up between Church and Ditmas.
When the BMT connection was severed at Ditmas the Culver-Nassau continued to run for a couple of years during daytime and rush hours. When the Culver ran as a shuttle it ran to 36/4, where you could connect to Sea Beach/West End/4th Avenue.
At that time, the BMT part of Culver used the two local tracks, and the express track was unused, though I think it was still accessible from the west for a while. The two local tracks came together at a switch just west of Ditmas.
Some time after Culver was cut back to a shuttle 24/7 (May 1958, IIRC, but subject to correction) the switches to the northbound local were cut at both ends and the southbound local was the only track used until the very end.
The southbound local ran into the center track at 9th Avenue lower level. The n/b local in 9th connected only to the SBK (originally there was no connection to the SBK from 9th Ave.) The s/b local in 9th stub ended.
As I believed I've commented elsewhere, the Culver shuttle didn't simply die, the TA killed it.
[As I believed I've commented elsewhere, the Culver shuttle didn't simply die, the TA killed it.]
For low ridership, I presume? Or was it in need of costly renovations?
I mean that they did everything possible to make sure the line couldn't be a viable alternate for Culver riders, so the ridership shrank and shrank until they got to the point where they could abandon it "for low ridership."
Too bad the structure didn't survive longer. It could have been saved, re-habbed, had the northbound track replaced and through service using the M line could have been started. It would have been a much quicker way for people using the Culver el to get to the Fourth Ave. BMTthatit used to be connected to then today's route either going all the way to 4th Avenue or down to Coney Island.
There is a section of this website that has some good pictures of the Culver Shuttle prior to it's demise in '75:
http://www.palter.org/~subway/index.html
I have some pictures of the El structure, with just on track on it,
at http://palter.org/~subway/74-xx-01/index.html
These were taken just before service was terminated....
Bill
10/24/99
Bill Palter,
I just accessed those pictures of the Culver Shuttle before closure. I noticed an R-44 (F) entering Ditmas Ave. Dp you have the date these pictures were taken?
Also for any of you who don't know this,but the TA has restored the metal wind screen at Ditmas Ave. and Ditmas looks much like it did before the early 50's conversion to Culver-Nassau and eventual shuttle service.Except of course that the original wind screen was made of wood with some glass panes.
Bill Newkirk
I dont have an exact date for the pictures, but
from other pictures on the roll, it looks like its from
late December 1974 thru early Spring 1975, anyone know the exact
closing date on the Culver Shuttle?
Bill
The last full day of service was May 10,1975.However the actual last train left Ditmas Avenue at 1206am on May 11,1975. R-27's 8058 and 8059 and R-30's 8524 and 8525 presided at the funeral.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have a Xerox of a service notice dated from 1959 which outlines the service changes that were made to the Culver.
1)Culver service via 4th Ave Exp(?) during weekdays and Saturdays
and Sunday/overnight shuttles to 36th St, eliminated. Culver
now operates betw. 9th and Ditmas at all times.
2)Midday W. End express service via Bway eliminated, trains now
operate to Chambers St via Montague tunnel via 4 Ave Exp Middays
to/fr Coney I and via 4th Ave Local to/fr Bay Pkwy and/or 62 St
rush hours. Weekends and overnite hours shuttle betw. 36th St and
Coney I. Thru service via Bway rush hours only(although I think
Saturday service was restored at a later date for the World's
Fair in '64)
3)Sea Beach operates via 4th Ave local on Saturdays.
4)New free transfer stairways opened between 4th Avenue station
on the IND D-Concourse/6th Avenue/Culver and the BMT 9th Street
stop (local service only).
Once the free X-fer was in place at 9th St and 4th Ave, the TA undoubetdly felt that there would no longer be a need for a Culver Shuttle and it was a matter of time (16 years) before that route could be erased from the map. IMHO, I'm pretty sure that was the long range thinking in place when plans to connect the El with the IND at Church Ave were being drafted years before.
I just wanted to make a point, using myself as an example. Sending messages to yourself is also not an appropriate use of SubTalk. Talking to yourself is best done in the privacy of your own home, or if you need company amongst other people in the psych ward.
However, while I have myself and some of you appreciators of my demented humor here, I just want to say to myself:
heypaul, I really find many of your posts to be very very funny, and some day I hope to meet you. From one of your fervent admirers --- heypaul
You need to use a cinematic devices from the '30s.
Suspend SubTalk while you speak directly to the camera. We'll all stand frozen in the background during your soliloquy, and then resume as though nothing has happened.
See Strange Interlude.
I like your posts! I keep thinking they might get us into a European film festival.
Hey Paul, I heard that Paul Mack Bus and Paul TsssChhh (or whatever his name was) are both fervent admirers and think your posts are very funny!!!
My son just brought me back a banner that was given out for the Green line opening (the 2 new stations.) It is white with (of course) green
lettering announcing the 2 new station names . Columbia Heights and Georgia-Petworth will be linking the "communities", as the banner
touts. I can't wait to see Wayne Whitehorne's pictures that he took just last week showing these two locations.
Chuck Greene
I have seen several early postcard views of the Bay Ridge El structure with what appears to be trolley wire poles extending up from the structure deck. Was overhead trolley wire the original power configuration before the entire line was elevated to Coney Island?
The Bay Ridge (or 3rd Ave. Bklyn) L did not use trolley wire, although lines which used the 5th Avenue L did use trolley wire on the surface,
What you're probably looking at is the 65th Street station area and its ramp to the street. At one time, trolleys climbed this ramp to the structure (with overhead wire) so that passengers could depart the trolleys and walk on the structure to the L trains without climbing stairs.
OK, thank you, that's sounds reasonable.
I have the Brooklyn El book that shows a picture of that connection.
However, this structure looks like a heavier subway type structure, st Bay Ridge Park, with the parkway going under the street and El above.
I have seen several versions of this post card, from different angles.
However, this one appears to have trolley poles mounted on the outboard ends of the girders.
The Bay Ridge El ran along 3rd Ave from 39th St. to 65th St. At 39th it swung east two blocks, and then connected with the 5th Ave. el to go into Downtown Brooklyn and via the Brooklyn Bridge to Park Row Terminal. It always ran with 3d rail once it was electrified, although the 5th Ave. el gave original access to the West End, Culver, and Sea Beach routes, which operated under trolley wire on the surface until the Dual Contracts construction in the 19-teens converted these lines to subway type operation and removed them from the street surface (another poster also noted this).
The 4th Ave. subway rendered the 3d Ave. el redundant, so in 1940 when the City of NY took over the BMT the 3rd Ave. el was abandoned and never was part of the city operated system. Parts of it did become the original Gowanus Parkway, however.
I've heard this rumor that the third Ave el in Brooklyn became part of that highway, but looking at pictures of this el in operation I can't see how any part of it would be strong enough to support a modern concrete highway.
Well, it wasn't really modern until the upgrade for the Verrazanno Bridge in 1964.
Someone who has first-hand knowledge said structural members of the 3rd Ave. (Brooklyn) L were never used for Gowanus Parkway despite a description in, among others, Caro's The Power Broker.
The original Gowanus Parkway was a much smaller structure than what you see now and was designed for autos only. Structures that do not carry any truck or bus traffic can be more lightly built (including, e.g., the parkways on L.I.) by a factor (I have read) of as much as 10:1.
10/24/99
I never seen any photos of this structure as the Gowanus PARKWAY utilizing the old BMT 3rd Ave. line taken from the street. Do any of these photos exist?
Bill Newkirk
Obviously we're only talking about a small slice of Gowanus Parkway, since the L only extended to 38th St.
I have a memory of a friend's showing me some 1940/41 pictures which were supposed to show the 3rd Ave structure being removed and only the uprights left standing.
Then the camera was turned and highway structure was being placed on those uprights.
This is my memory (of 35+ years ago) but, as I've said, someone who should know says it never happened--so maybe my memory is not as clear as it should be.
I do remember the old Gowanus structure and it seems to me it was no more than half the width of what's there now.
As to the weight issue, I'm not an engineer, but it appeals to me that while a highway structure would add more dead weight to the elevated uprights, the live weight (axle-loading of passenger autos vs. that of el trains) would be much less.
I wish someone could give a definitive answer.
A hint of the old Gowanus Parkway does remain: different pylons after you reach 38th Street going northbound is a sign that something went on there when the whole shabang was reconstructed as an expressway in the early 1960s.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The old Gowanus Parkway was four lanes wide (two in each direction); the Moses construction ripped out the entire east side of Third Avenue so the new, wider expressway could be built. I can't give a definitive answer, but I seem to remember the uprights being of elevated rail structure size, strengthened with concrete for their entire height.
The Hamilton Avenue structure was widened from six to eight lanes as part of that project.
It's interesting, though, that the highway remained open throughout the construction--driving alongside the 12" x 12" wood blocks with barrier planking atop was a scary experience, but there don't seem to have been many accidents despite the narrowed lanes during the construction. (It's very different from the way the TA does things--now they reroute a subway line for six weekends to change a piece of rail.)
The exits at 36th or 38th Street were added at that time, too. I would guess that the exit from the northbound side onn the original parkway (which was an unfinished turnout from the old highway) was a reconstruction of part of the L structure where it turned east, but the exit was not put in until the new highway was built. After the exit around 65th Street, the next exit was Prospect Avenue.
The destruction of the east side of Third Avenue is the reason that as you drive along, you can look east and see the backyards going up toward Fourth Avenue. What was done to that neighborhood was really terrible--and all so traffic from the Moses bridge could get to Manhattan and to the Brooklyn-Queens Expressway more directly.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
>>>The destruction of the east side of Third Avenue is the reason that as you drive along, you can look east
and see the backyards going up toward Fourth Avenue. What was done to that neighborhood was really
terrible--and all so traffic from the Moses bridge could get to Manhattan and to the Brooklyn-Queens
Expressway more directly. <<<
There's talk about putting the Gowanus Expwy in a tunnel in Sunset Park, but you'll see the full length 2nd Avenue Subway before they do that. That would be a Big Dig on par with Boston's, and since the big dig is in Boston's downtown and Sunset Park is not one of your more affluent areas, there isn't much call on the bigshots to do anything.
Caro mentions the Sunset Park debacle in The Power Broker.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I wouldn't guarantee that 2nd Ave. subway would be finished before a 2nd Ave. (Brooklyn) car subway.
Highway projects tend to umm... how shall we say... uhh... more "lively" than transit projects?
"The original Gowanus Parkway was a much smaller structure than what you see now and was designed for autos only. Structures that do not carry any truck or bus traffic can be more lightly built (including, e.g., the parkways on L.I.) by a factor (I have read) of as much as 10:1."
But as any Chicagoan who has driven Lake Shore Drive (which is supposed to be a parkway: buses are allowed but commercial vehicles are not) can tell you, "autos only" is a rule honored more in the breach than the observance.
Well, the "autos only" rule was honored in the breach on the autos-only West Side Highway when a city truck plunged through the highway to the street below.
As I said, "more lightly built."
[Well, the "autos only" rule was honored in the breach on the autos-only West Side Highway when a city truck plunged through the highway to the street below.]
Truck drivers not infrequently learn the hard way that the autos-only parkways on Long Island have low clearances on their overpasses.
As someone who regularly uses the Robinson (Interborough) Pkway I can attest to the fact that every so often a tractor trailor gets on from the S/B Van Wyck and usually stops just before the first overpass (its kind of obvious its too low) and has to be backed off. I remember a car-carrier got on E/B from the beginning and made it as far as the low overpass at the s-curves by the cemetary.
on forth ave ave/39st the btrain s/bound leaves the 36st station before entering the rock tunnel heading towards 38st yard/9th ave station.on the n/end of the rock tunnel is the old brt tower which is sometimes used to bring in trains/and/materials from 3rd ave this was was the south brooklyn railroad.anyhow along side the old tower there is a sealed portel.this is a one track portel. i have herd that it was once a track used by the sbrr or an old trolly line.i was also told that on the other end which is n/o the train yard that it is also sealed off.or maybe its something that was planned but never bult.
The tunnel pockets at that location were provided against the possibility of more tracks. They are not sealed tunnels.
Hello, there. This weekend "J" Service suspension for restoration is only one in a series of major headaches we Willy B commuters have had to endure before, during AND AFTER the four month subway service suspension. When does all this end, please?
With the winter season soon approaching I was wondering how deep does the snow have to be before it affects third rail power? If the snow gets to deep would it not short out something? Also for the TO's and anybody who works in the various yards snow has to be tricky walking around those tracks and third rail power.
Normally, snow is very pure water and therefore not a conductor of electricity. Water has to contained impurities, such as a dissolved salt to conduct electricity. That is why there are few shorts with snow.
Ahh another winter comes. And the great debate on what is better. Under running third rail shoes (Metro North) or Over running third rail shoes (NYCTA/LIRR. One recent storm each where one crippled LIRR but Metro North ran and the other LIRR stopped dead and Metro North ran fine.
We'll see this year...
Snow, as such, does not affect the third rail. During snow storms, 'sweeper' trains or 'rail polisher trains' will run to keep the build-up of snow & ice to a minimum. The real problem is ice build-up on the third rail. For that we use cars equiped with 'scraper' contact shoes to clear the ice. Scraper shoes are normal contact shoes with scraper blades machined into them. After roughly one or two trips, the cutting edges wear away and they are essentially regular contact shoes. To answer your original question, if you can see the rails, you can run on them.
Chicago uses open top running third rail. Unless the snow is very deep very fast it is not a problem
Freezing rain is more of a problem but they are now using third rail heaters.
Last year I-DOT plowed snow off the Kennedy Express way and bend a bunch of third rail that was one of the big problems in the New Years snow storm last year.
They also use a deiceing car when the ice starts to be a problem. Mostly used on the Rockaways.
Right. But if the snow fall is too bad for trains to run in certain parts of the city prone to the most problems (say Dyre Av), a Snow Emergency Train must be dispatched (diesel-4 passenger cars-diesel).
-Stef
Hmm... the sparks from between the contact shoe and the 3rd rail doesn't melt that stuff away?
Nope. It's just some hot ions.
-Hank
Steve, Thanks for the input. I never stop being amazed at what a learing forum this site is !!!
Mr t__:^)
I can and do say the same thing. There's plenty of info to share on the subject...
I know this topic was discussed before but I cant find the old post in the archives. I will be in Ny area for Thanksgiving holiday and was wondering what the address is and when they are open, if at all. Also what are the rules for making copies of photo's or other technical info? Thanks for any help. The reason Ill be going is to research the apperance of BRT1200 bu cars when delivered since Ive got a 2 car brass set of them. Thanks Again
This past Tuesday, I caught an N train at Queensborough Plaza
to 5th Avenue, and I was surprised it was composed of R-68As normally
used on the B line. Why do the B and N lines share the R-68s and
R-68As? When the 63rd Street Connection opens, will the R-68s and
R-68As be shuffled throughout the IND and BMT lines? Will the E, F
and R lines evewntually get newer subway cars?
James Li
All of R68As and some of R68s belong to Coney Island Yard. Because of the car availability on a given day, there is no surprise that some R68As are on the N line, and sometimes even on the D line.
As for the 63rd Street extension, everything is not settled yet. There are two years to think about it. It is too early to discuss now.
Chaohwa
I haven't seen an R68A on the D line in nearly 5 years.
Wrong Chris,
Yankee Specials run sometimes to West 4th and sometimes to Coney Island, and they are made up of R68A's. More often then not they change the signs on the side but they keep the B's on the ends.
It's great since they run express in Bronx, Manhattan and Brooklyn (prior to the weekend track work on the Brighton).
Yankee Speicals always come from Concourse Yard I beleive.
Well, I said I've never seen them, not that they haven't run them. I almost never use the system on the weekends. I had no idea that they ran extra trains on the D line for Yankee Stadium crowds.
They Do, the IRT isn't the only Baseball specials in the city!! >G<
I thought the TA only ran special service for Yankee Stadium crowds on the #4 line. Guess I was wrong.
I've seen a Concourse R-68 on the N Line before! Just a 4 car set. Not the whole train.
By the way, what R68 car numbers belong to Concourse Yard and Coney Island Yard?
My estimation is that
(1) 2500-2799 belong to Concourse Yard.
(2) 2800-2924 belong to Coney Island Yard.
Am I wrong?
Chaohwa
i saw R68A on the D line on Saturday. they look better than the R68, now if the windows stay clean...
The steel on the side is much smoother on a R-68A.
As of December 1998,
Concourse = 286
Coney Island = 139
As for the unit numbers ask "Steve" the dude a concourse yard.
I would like to know where can I get a hold of a NYC subway track map
of the entire system? This way I can leave the Track book by Peter
Dougherty at home, and carry less stuff in my bag. Where should I
write to? I anyone has any extra maps of this type, please mail one
to me at the following address. Please contact me at (718) 441-2758
before you mail it, so I won't have to get any suspicious mail.
James Li
83-33 Austin Street #3A
Kew Gardens, NY, 11415
Peter Dougherty's book is the only set of track maps available to the general public, and I'm told that a number of TA employees even use it on the job because it's more accurate than what the TA provides. Guess you'll have to keep carrying it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How could I get a copy of the Dougherty track book? Or is it one of those "you missed the boat" things? ;-)
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
If you like great track diagrams, it's a "must have."
Look at his website.
Why is this book not available at Amazon or BN.com?
RUE4the book.
I assume the track book is not available from standard retail outlets because he isn't a registered publisher and so it doesn't have an ISBN number--this is the key for retailing these days. I know b&n will take one or two of almost anything in print with an ISBN.
Peter doesn't appear to use any retail outlets, such as the ERA or BSRA. Maybe he just prefers to handle it himself.
The book is in the Transit Museum store at Grand Central!
I was glancing at it yesterday. They might ship it to Sweeden if asked.
Or to Kew Gardens for that matter.
They WILL ship it anywhere you want ! I bought mine over the phone. Ask Steff or another museum employee how to order it (from Sweden it's hard to call them on the phone & give you credit card #).
Mr t__:^)
P.S. Try their web site: www.mta.nyc.us
Since you have the track map book, as we all should, copy a page or two and take it with you.
The TA has posted the PDF file (need reader) of the new Franklin Shuttle here
It look like their original copy for the schedule--includes the crop, fold and register marks on page 2.
Also, nice new graphics on the entry pages.
They neglected to show the transfer to the IRT.
This isn't even the MTA's homepage or URL.
http://www.nyct.org/
Your kidding me right?
Not kidding!
It's one of a number of domains pointing to the same home page.
www.lirr.org will also work.
And they still haven't updated the subway map(I believe it's the January map).
I was given information about the DM30AC units they will enter service on November 15
Does the TA use the third track to the right of the brooklyn bound bowling green station?Years ago a shuttle service ran between there and south ferry.When the station went through renovation, the track stayed any reason for this?
The track isn't in revenue service now and probably never will be again. I'm sure the track was kept for some kind of future re-routes or as a lay-up track.
As i was riding on the number 2 line though the East 180th yard, i noticed two R62A,train with the number 5 line i thought this line had exclusive redbird service.I know the number 4 line has several redbirds, on loan from East 180th.I noticed the older redbird fleet is on the number 5 line and (iwas on an R-29 today)as opposed to the R-33 fleet which is on the number 2 line any reason for this?
There are R-62As on the 5 for nighttime OPTO service. They are used during the day for TWOPTO service.
And they sit on the yard for NOPTO service.
R62s run on the 5 during late night hours since the shuttle has OPTO. The redbirds can not operate with OPTO.
When the R142's arrive, where will the R62s on the 5 go? Will they replace the redbirds on the 4?
They could be used on the 7 from Javits Center to Little Neck Parkway!
This is Queens Boulevard-Thomson Avenue
The next stop on this W train will be Greenpoint Avenue-Penny Bridge.
10/24/99
That's a good question,similar to the following:
There are Redbirds on the #4 to supplant the R-62's there. When the Redbirds go.what will replace them? R-62A's??
Bill Newkirk
The R62A modified OPTO cars that are currently running on the Dyre line belong to the Pelham fleet. They are currently on loan to the Dyre line in exchange for an even # of R33 cars.
When the R142 and R 142A cars come out, it is my understanding that they will be used to cover the Dyre,White Plains, and Pelham fleets.
The R 62A cars in the Pelham fleet will be transfered to the Main St. Flushing line.In doing this,all "redbirds" will be sent to cover the rush hour in heaven.
Q!
Or Hell as I hope for the R-33 singles.
Now somehow when I said that, I felt quite bad, as if I was ordering an execution. Does that mean that I'm a real railfan now? I now retract the above comment.
This is Grand Avenue-Haberperson
The next stop on this W train will be Metropolitan Avenue-Fresh Pond Road, change for the M.
There is talk that the R62A'S an the Pelham Line will be leaving shortly and replaced by all Redbirds for Now. My guess would be the No.6 will get the R36'S in exchange
yeah, thats all well in good. but when are the new subway cars comning in service?
I'm back into the serious mode for awhile (after joking about the F. Shuttle, Hey Paul to Hey Paul, and asking for the trotters results.
I just got "The Malbone Street Wreck" and find the chapter on the history of the lines very interesting. However I remember a recent thread about errors in that chapter and really don't remember the errors and corrections. I know my collegues in SubTalk usually don't like to bring back old topics (such as subway movies) but can someone elaborate the errors and corrections for me again please?
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try my OUTRAGEOUS COLOR QUIZ!!!
Sarge,
See:
A Few Historical Errors in Cudahy's The Malbone Street Wreck.
and also see:
The Malbone Street Wreck Review.
Some decent pix too.
I finally got around to reading the book this past week and I was rather disappointed, especially after all the hype. Cudahy did correct a number of misconceptions, which I greatly appreciate, but his style was cold and wooden, not what I expected based on his other works. It had all the charm of a freshman research paper. Only die-hard buffs like us would want to have it in our library.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, Cudahy filled in a lot of blanks, and for me personally, it's a "must have" book.
But I felt he could've done a lot more with the subject.
The whole Kendra Webdale story is going to be on Dateline NBC on Monday.
Me being the closet case graffiti artist, I took out my
SEPTA city transit map and started planning out a subway
line out of complete boredom.
Since it's been a topic of discussion, I began my line
along Roosevelt Blvd starting from Grant Avenue(NIMBY's be
damned) and taking it down past Broad Street into Hunting
Park and Tioga. And there I stopped. I tried to find a
street for it to go down, but I really didn't like what I
saw.
Ridge Avenue? Not enough foot traffic and the crime in the
area is enough to scare away any potential riders(even
area residents).
Broad Street? Already a subway there.
20th Street? It may fly downtown, but I don't know how
successful it would be in North Philly's considerably
narrower 20th Street.
Then I saw 22nd. I took it there and along Ridge and it
got me to 20th Street close enough to downtown, so I stuck
with it.
Now we're south of Walnut. Where to go?
A: SW Philly via Lindbergh Blvd?
B: South Philly via 19th?
C: Another route north of Market which would put it on the
other side of Broad, possibly 5th?
And would this be light or heavy rail(I suggest
MUNI/Boston Green line light rail).
That's my "Red Line" so far. What do you think and where
would you send it?
1. Run it down the Broad St express tracks, turn it east on South St and go to Penns Landing.
2. Continue over Hunting Park Ave to Ridge Ave in subway. Subway beneath Ridge to 33rd to the CSX tracks near Girard. Open cut in the CSX R/W alongside Penna Ave to the Art Museum area. Subway again where the CSX tracks go under Penna Ave widened (27th St). Subway under the Parkway to City Hall, tie into Broad St express tracks. Then end it at Walnut-Locust or follow #1 above.
3. Build a branch from the 33rd St line up Henry Ave (joining the route in #2 above at Allegheny/30th/Hunting Park/Henry). Switch over to Ridge via cross-country tunnel at Hermit and continue beneath Ridge to Northwestern Ave. (This should help me while we're building these lines!) This would bring the only unconnected-to-rapid-transit part of the city into the system.
When I look at the map, I notice how Union Avenue (under which the G train runs). cuts through the grid as it goes south of Broadway to Flushing Avenue. So is this another street that was cut only for building the Subway? What are others? Not counting Lafayette (Elm) between Worth and Duane. Sixth Avenue south of Carmine and Seventh south of Greenwich Avenue.
Interesting question about Union Avenue. I don't know the answer.
Roosevelt Avenue between Queens Boulevard and what is now Flushing Meadows Corona Park was built especially so that the elevated line could be built over it. The line opened in 1917 so construction began a couple years earlier.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Oh yeah, I forgot:
This is Booth Memorial Avenue
Next stop on this I train, Queens College
Kissena Boulevard or Main Street?
This is 21 Street-Queensbridge, change here for the E, F, R, N, Z and 7 trains.
The next stop on this W train will be Thomson Avenue-Queens Boulevard.
>>>Kissena Boulevard or Main Street? <<<
Kissena. I'm figuring that since they've made it near impossible to expand east from Main, extend down Main and Kissena. So it can't be an IND line. Instead of an I train, make it a 7 spur.
This is Queens College
Next stop on this 7 train, 73rd Avenue/Parsons
[When I look at the map, I notice how Union Avenue (under which the G train runs). cuts through the grid as it goes south of Broadway to Flushing Avenue. So is this another street that was cut only for
building the Subway?]
Union Avenue is built along the grid pattern than prevails south of Flushing Avenue. It seems to be a more-or-less straight extension of Marcy Avenue, which extends in the other direction all the way south to Fulton. So it's possible that Union has long had its current orientation, and it happened to be a convenient route for the G to follow. It would be interesting to find out for sure.
Williamsburg was completely built up and thriving when the Crosstown Line was built so its extremely doubtful they would cut a whole new street just for a subway. They'd have to tear down many, many buildings in its path. And talk about NIMBY. This is a Hasidic area, at that time too, and they would never allow such a change to their area. There are 3 ways to find out for sure:Check out old pre-IND era maps.Check out the architecture on Union-is it roughly the same as the surrounding street? (I should know that as I'm always in the area but never stopped to think about it) Ask old timers in the area. People love to reminisce.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
my simply OUTRAGEOUS Color Quiz!!!
What about cutting through the village to build Sixth Avenue in the 1920s? I believe that was already a built up area.
This is Greenpoint Avenue-Cent Bridge
The next stop on this W train will be Grand Avenue-Haberperson
Cent Bridge??? I thought it was PennyBridge??? I know its a joke!!!!!!
3TM
E.Tremont Av. Transfer to the Bx40 and 42. This is the last elevated stop. The next stop on this P line will be West farms Rd. Transfer to the Bx36. Stand Clear.........
I also did not see your previous post.............
3TM
W.Farms Rd. Transfer to the Bx36 up on the street level. The next station will be Southern Blvd. Transfer to the 2 and 5 lines. Transfer is also available to the Bx19. Stand Clear.............
I was being politically correct. I also didn't want to insult the Haberwoman.
This is 188 Street-Hillside Avenue
The next stop on this W train will be Grand Central Parkway.
OK, after a little bit of research, I have a little bit of insight. In Landers' "12 Historical NYC Street and Transit Maps" there are two maps of Brookyn from 1911 and 1920, and the stretch of Union between Flushing and Broadway doesn't show up. So, one of two things happened:
1) They connected Union and Marcy before the IND was put through, and the IND followed the convenient route, or
2) Union Avenue was constructed there in the 1930s along with the IND.
Union Avenue must have two separate numbering systems, since the numbers start at #1 at both Flushing Avenue and then, start at #1 again at Broadway. It should really be called Union Avenue South.
Its counterpart, Union Street, is also rather strange. It's a long street, starting in Cobble Hill and winding up in Brownsville. For most of its route, it's fairly NW-SE, with an interruption for Prospect Park. After another interruption for Lincoln Terrace Park, a small piece goes east, and then goes south, finally ending at East 98th Street near Kings Highway.
www.forgotten-ny.com
My 1926 (pre-IND) Red Book shows Union Ave. as only going north of Broadway, so maybe it was cut through when the buiilt the GG Line.
This would have been pretty unusual, though.
It was done for Sixth, Seventh and <BROOKLYNACCENT>Laugher</BROOKLYNACCENT> yet. Why is it unusual?
This is France's Louis XVI Boulevard, change for the F. U service has been eliminated.
The next stop on this W train will be Bell Boulevard.
Stan Fischler's fine book entitled "The Subway", published in 1997 by H&M Productions II Inc of New York, refers to three elevated train accidents in New York Transit History in which one or more el cars fell to the street.
The first was the September 7, 1905 wreck of a Southbound Ninth Avenue El at the 53rd Street junction with the Sixth Avenue El. A mixup between the route identification disks on the car and the towerman resulted in the motorman driving the train too fast for the diverging switch and ended with the front end of the second car of the train down on the street, twelve passengers dead at the site, five people to die shortly therafter, and another 37 people hurt.
The second was a June, 1923 (exact date not specified) derailment and falling of a Fifth Avenue El train south of Atlantic Avenue. [No other details were given in the book.]
Does anyone know of the third accident to which the author referred? Or have more details on the Fifth Avenue wreck?
There also was one on the Pelham Bay line on August 29, 1957 near Zerega Avenue. I don't know of the details on how it happened but apparently two trains somehow hit, and R-17 cars 6673 and 6786 wound up going over the side of the el structure and hitting the street.
There actually was a fourth one, just in the past few years, just north of 238th Street on the White Plains Road line. Apparently there one train negotiated the curve entering the yard too fast and rear-ended another train and some of the cars fell to the street; they landed on a truck trailer filled with some flammable substance and a major fire erupted. I believe the cars were in the 8900 series (R-33's).
#9152 and #9153 crashed and burned. #8980 and #8981 wound up on top of the tractor-trailer. Don't think any of them actually went all the way down to the street, though #9152-53 came close. Serious fire damage there; both are probably beyond hope of repair.
Wayne
In the past few weeks posters on this forum have mentioned an incident where a train overshot the end of the el at 168St on the Jamaica Line and the truck of the train fell off the el. (truck only) Maybe someone has more info.
This is news to me, and I'm pretty knowledgeable about the Jamaica Ave. line.
This DID happen. I have the photo. I just can't find it at this time. The photo was in an Electric Railroaders' Association publication in the 70's. It could either have been in a fan trip booklet or a pictorial book on the BMT or BRT. A train of Standards overshot the bumper block at 168th St. with part of the lead car hanging. I don't remember whether the front truck was still intact or not. If I remember correctly, this happened sometime in the 20's. If I come up with the photo and story any time soon, I'll post the deatils here and where it appeared.
J-train to 169th St. Watch the closing doors!
I remember seeing a train that ran through the block on the middle track at Portal St and ENY Ave on what is now the #3 train. I had to walk from Saratoga to Utica to ge to the train and passed the wreck. Interesting seeing the Lo-V on the street. This was between 9/1962 and 6/1965 - when I used the New Lots line to HS.
A more unusual type of crash is the H&M derailment at Exchange Place in 1942. One of the derailed cars ended up on the station platform. As far as I can tell, there haven't been any other similar incidents.
Although this isn't really an el how about the big accident on the trestle in Astoria leading to the Hell's Gate Bridge some years ago?
I don't think that car fell to the street due to the accident, but it fell while being lifted off the structure by a crane onto a flat bed trailer on 31st St.
I believe that was May 23, 1974, with #8545 tangling up with #8507 and both cars were smashed to smithereens. It happened on the Astoria line near 39th-Beebe. #8507's widower (#8506) is at the Museum. I remember seeing #8545 parked on the wreck lead at CI yard (from a passing "F" train). "A" end was totally demolished.
Wayne
No, actually I was talking about a railroad accident in Astoria on the trestle (or viaduct) leading to the Hell's Gate Bridge.
How about in 1931, and again in 1977 when the big Ape knocked off the 2nd Ave E and did it again to the 7 line. They fell to the street. This is LIRR Local, making all stops from Jamaica to Lower Level at GCT
That was the 31st Street Astoria Line in 1977, and R16 "RR" #6316 felt the simian wrath of THE KING. Rust in pieces.
Wayne
Winter of 1983 or 84, I believe it was Christmas day, an R-44 came very close to going off the viaduct leading fron the South Channel Bridge at Hammels Wye. The lead motor of a train of R-44s actually lost a wheel. The wheel cracked and seperated at the hub. With wind chills of -20 to -30, DCE and MOW crews, using a crane actually had to change the truck up on the structure. A flatbed truck carried the replacement truck from Coney Island. The operation which began mid-day, lasted well into the next.
There is a picture in Greller's "Cars of the BMT subway".
It was a train of standards, and it did run "the block"
at 168 St when that was the end of the Jamaica el. There
wasn't really much a block at that location, just a trip and
a lightweight wall with an advertisement on the street side.
The car got about 1/2 car length beyond the end of track and
I'm pretty sure the truck went down.
The 5th Avenue L accident was June 25, 1923, corner of Flatbush and Atlantic. Two cars ended up in the street, apparently after splitting a switch at a crossover east of Atlantic Avenue. Eight killed, more injured.
I can't think of the third accident, but two were killed and a couple of dozen injured at Ocean Parkway Brighton Line August 5, 1924, when an "L" train collided with a steel train.
Didn't end up in the street, though.
Fischler's book is entertaining and has great photos, but the accuracy of his history is haphazard.
If you want to go outside the borders of New York City, then you must include the January 1977 Chicago Loop accident in which two 2200-series cars (#2290-91) plunged from the "L" into Wabash after bumping into the rear of a Ravenswood (Brown Line) 6000-series set, which remained on the rails. It happened right at the north-east corner of the Loop. There were numerous fatalities and one car's side collapsed.
Wayne
Boston had two such accidents, and one hanger on!
The first happened at Washington and Dudley in 1909, and involved a train running light entering the approach to Dudley Station. The train entered the curve much to fast, and the first car derailed and ended up in the street. The second car landed on the roof of the adjacent bank building, while the third ended up leaning against the el. All three wooden cars were scrapped at the scene.
The second such wreck took place at Harrison Av. and Beach St. on a sharp curve, in 1928. I don't know all the details, but from the photos I have seen, it may have been a rear-ender like the Chicago wreck. This time steel cars were involved, and (brand new) 0934 ended up dangling from the structure. An 0300 series car went to the street. Both were cut up at the scene, and the whole 0900 series was never to operate in service together as deliveries were still taking place.
(An interesting sidelight here - the loss of 0934 put one gap in the series, but there never was an 0975. the Laconia group went from 0900 to 0974, and the Wasons ran from 0976 to 01000.
The third episode involved an 0200 lay up train at Forest Hills, which was running to the station from the relay track. It derailed on the curve at the end of the relay track, bounced over a few ties and wound up dangling from the structure. That one was repaired and returned to service.
Then there was an interesting ground level event at Codman Yard in Dorchester, when two operators were BACKING their trains up at the same time, at the same switch. The two trains met and tipped each other sideways, but did not derail or damage each other. The two trains ran forward, both fell back on the tracks, and noone knew the difference, except for the photographer who caught a shot at the right instant.
Which Line is at Harrison Avenue and Beach Street? Despite all my Boston travels (4 years living there), I don't know where that is.
You can find more information on the Chicago Loop accident at:
http://www.chicago-l.org/articles/1977crash.html
Thanks, Henry K for the info.
I remember seeing pictures of the April 7, 1972 falling el crash to which the article refers. I didn't know exactly when it occured, except that it was during my earlier college days.
With all this talk of the Train Operator open competitive, I have just one question:
IS IT HARD TO DRIVE A TRAIN?
Would it take a long time to learn, or is it fairly easy to pick up. How about stopping the train? Are the brakes easy to use, or is it hard to get in the stations exactly?
And is it easy to see the traffic lights in the tunnel?
Thank you.
No,it's not hard to drive a train. The training period is 3 months.
Some people could pick it up right away, as I did. Some it takes longer. I feel stopping in a station takes time. The signals are easy to see(what you call traffic lights). It will be what you make it. Good luck. Brian
That's why they are called train operators now instead of motormen. it used to be that a motorman knew more about the train than some of the mechanics. They carried their own tools too. As bad as the equipment was, and it was bad, the trains always seemed to limp from terminal to terminal.
Today the trains are much better but we don't have motormen any more. Today an air leak or flat wheels are called unusual noise and are reasons for the operator to want to go out of service. So don't worry, medioctity seems to be the order of the day
No arguemnt here. But that's what Rocco and his Boss Nat wanted. The training was cut to bare minimum, and then some.
Then there is the persecution factor. When employees are disciplined for repairing trains because they were "tampering with equipment, without authorization" you get the results you outlined.
Thanks, Brian.
Do new train operators frequently overshoot/undershoot stations?
If so, what happens?
It depends some do some don't. I was extra Carefull on my first day. My first road job was a 4PM Report at Flatbush working the No.2 Line. I was so slow the people walked thowed my train as I entered the station.
A Towerman how used to work Nevins St still jokes with my about having a solid red line behind me. But that was 11 1/2 Years ago.
If you Overrun a Station the Conductor is suppose to Pull the cord and the Train Will be taken out of service and a Supervisor will take you downtown to be checked out. If your lucky you may just get 10 day suspention but more like 30 days. If your on probation they can just send you back to your former title or if your from the street just fire you.
BUT! They won't because it would mean that the training was inadequate! God forbid we start a paper trail of inexperiencedand and under trained personnel involved in operator error incidents.
I have seen probies get away with hitting home signals, when experienced men get days. Why? See the above.
well lets see thanks to motormen(motormorons rather) who've f**ked it up for everyone else by keying signals and wrapping the controller is that a smart are stupid thing when you encounter a red signal? whats ahead broken rail? track circuit? or better yet ANOTHER TRAIN!
BUT! They won't because it would mean that the training was inadequate! God forbid we start a paper trail of inexperiencedand and under trained personnel involved in operator error incidents.
I have seen probies get away with hitting home signals, when experienced men get days. Why? See the above.
TA trains are like go carts when compared to a 50 car freight, no electric assist, and no graduated release. You get one shot. I don't think any of the more recent graduates of the "Rocco Cortese school of trains" could ever pass muster on the railroad.
Well, based on the amount of training current train operators
receive before going solo, the TA must not think it is too hard.
To quote my School Car instructor - "Any idiot can make a train go. The real trick is getting it to stop where YOU want it to stop."
"Any idiot can make a train go."
Yes, and they prove it a hundred times a day. I try to read most of the reports of unusual reasons why trains are late or removed from service. I sometimes can not believe that these things happen. One thing is for sure. Going to an open competative test can't hurt.
As a person who was promoted to motorman some 18 1/2 years ago, I see the callibre of the train operators coming out today. They are thrown out onto the road before they are ready. Maybe if they would spend some time in the yards before they hit the road they can learn the nuts and bolts of a subway car which you only learn in the yards and not on the road. But the supt's are worried about mistakes by probies in the yard (hard adds, barn door collisions) than mistakes on the road. Mistakes on the road are magnified. How can a probie t/o learn when the RTO sup't of the J/M/Z orders that probies are not allowed to make moves in hand throw yards? Then all of a sudden they know it all after probation? There is plenty of blame to go around. When I have a mechanical problem with my train, I call Control Center. How many times have I gotten someone who NEVER operated a train in their life? Maybe that person was a tower operator beforehand. They don't have a clue what I'm talking about. What about an RCI who doesn't comprehend the English language? Plenty of them too! Cars which go into the yard and come out the same way! I'm sure you have sent cars out onto the road with defects which had no business being out there just to make service. But I'm getting off the topic. Yes, I see lots of my fellow train operators doing strange things, but I see other titles doing likewise.
Amen Bill, amen.
Thats for sure. I have a good story about a RCI. This Summer I had a Problem with a Train that no one wanted to take out of service. I was on the 14:36 Van Courtlandt. I'm used to getting in tune with hearing the Doors open and shut especally on a R62A. Well at 145 Street I didn't hear the doors opened and Someone starts yelling "Open the Doors!". So I asked my Conductor what was happening. He said all door were open. I looked down the Line the Gardlights were on but the doors were closed in the Front section exept the 4th car. So after 5 trys the doors open. The problem continued at 125 Street. I called Control Center and they said keep the train in service the RCI will meet me at Chambers Street. Well we had problems at 137,116,103,79,66,59,34,Canal Streets. I called Control every time and still keeped the train in service. The RCI gets on. No problems intil South Ferry. The RCI came up front telling me the train was ok. But the Conductor couldn't Open the front section. The RCI went back and after 11 trys the doors open. As we left South Ferry the RCI told us the train will be going out of service when we get to the Terminal. I told him to say on the train intil 14 Street to make sure he wanted to live with his Decision. He agreed and the train had Problems at Canal and Chrisopher Street. After it took 2 Minute to open the Doors RCI made the decision to Discharge at 14 Street after holding up a total of 4 Uptown Local trains.
Also I once had a Train on the No.2 Line the Brakes would stick and be grinding to a stop some times ginding as far as 5 car lenghts. I called Control and they got me the RCI and a TSS at Mott Ave. The RCI ofcause said it was ok for service as well as the TSS. Well I was able to get the train to Flatbush Safely but however I was 25 Minutes late. No one even gave me a skip even with 2 trains behind me. When it left for E 241 it was alittle better since the problem was with the South Motor. When I first came out the the No.7 Line they didn't play around with it. They took the train right out and the RCI told me I defenitly had Hot Wheel. But I noticed that 239 Yard is just leting those redbirds rot since they know there getting the R142.
isn't it a fact that plenty of incidents occuring in yards are with seasoned train operators? it seems school car instruction in yards from drilling out equipment to plain old safety stops in and out of the barn are thrown to the wind. CED people in the barn bugging cars brought in and out is like asking for blood. T/O's checking trains out before be taking out of the shop plenty of times chains are across the rails or bco'd.. i admit it taken short cuts too but the simple fact that maybe someone made a hard hitch and dropped the cooupler has been done by quite a few senior people also and of course left for the next guy not to mention htting the bumping block...
Seasoned? Just because a guy has a few years as a T/O, doesn't mean squat. Only the old timers have any more than a few weeks cumulative in the yards. Probies aren't allowed to operate in the yards anymore and extra people don't often cover yard jobs, because the crew office won't cover those jobs.
Where does the needed experience come from? When these acidents occur to a seasoned T/O, just exactly how much yard experience does he have?
my next question would be why are new train operators even broken in the yards period? I can see that since alot of road jobs either putin or layup to the yards. Personally I prefer operating on the road compared to the yard, shouldn't new people be allowed to cut their teeth at least 30 days in the yard before operating in road service? when did doing more damage in the yard become a priority to operating a train with up to 2000 people on board a train? somethings not right in that equation.
The yard requires operator competency, with switches and coupling, etc. The road is much more fail safe. But the real reason is they feel there are enough old timers who can pick the yard, so they don't bother training new people for it, figuring they will have the experience by the time they can pick a yard job.
That and the reasons I outlined a few days ago as to cost and training time and the way it relates to people who go back to their former title.
I will be certainly interesting to see how the new people from the street handle the minimized training. You know the won't add any time, that would be a tacit admission to the failure of the training up to that date. We all know how they loathe to accept responsibility for failures.
Actually there has been a trend towards the opposite of keeping the old timers in the yards unless picked because of a clause in the contract now being enforced after many years. The clause allows a lower rate of pay for junior train operators who can't pick the yard but by reason of assignments are forced to work the yards at the reduced pay. The train operator will be qualified in the yards on paper, then after he/she reaches top rate pay after the 231 days will then be assigned to the yards so the TA can save money on him/her with the brand new T/Os working the road at starting rate of pay. Some of these brand new T/Os will work for months at a time, stepping their feet into a yard for the first time and then WHAMMO! No Harriman award for NYCTA again. The same works for supervision where there are some flunkie TSSs with a year as a T/O and TSS teaching an already shortened class with no hands on practice by themselves in a yard where they theoretically can't hurt anyone. That is a direct result of eliminating Civil Service from supervisory positions as the ones who shine shoes and paint locker rooms out of title get hired for a position that they are not nor ever will be qualified for.
UNION BUSTING!!!! There spilting the membership and having us broil between us. They have a very well put pain to spilt us. and we sit like baby's and only cry. Yes, any one can operate a train, bus or truck but the hard part about a TA job is to keep your head above the Sh$#. A outsider don't understand till after 5 year on the road with TA. As of 1998 53% of Probe get fired before the first year is up and 31% quits.
Wake up members time is running out
Don't run hot. let them start to feel the heat
PS. There may be some who may be paid off to mess thing up like the T/O test two years ago. (Like the Sweet sound of Train worker 1 & 2)
Get use to it. It's coming soon. Dec15
Go to your Union Meeting.
Dude, I like your enthusiasm, but wake up. Read my posting: Open Competitive Train Operator, a real hot exam (why TA went outside). Then you can understand manegement's motives. Please don't sprout incorrect assumptions, you only make us look like fanatics.
Greetings from San Francisco! (the home of how NOT to run a public transport system! i.e. MUNI!) You think it is bad there on the MTA, come to MUNI and really learn how to mishandle a railway! 'Da Mayor' (Willie Brown) has made the Municipal Railway of San Francisco (MUNI) a political football. Missed runs, 'bunching' i.e. busses that run on other operators times, deferred maintainence, you name it, MUNI has got it! Its easy to get on here, but I wouldn't touch it with a ten METER pole, let alone a ten foot pole! No, it has been always that way for at least the past quarter century. This system is so misdesigned it isn't funny! They think small here. I have lived in the Big Apple and I have to tell you that the subway system back there is my favourite the world over. I have been on every line back there, I have been on underground systems all across North America and in Europe and as the one there in NYC is the worlds largest, it also holds many world records. So yes, I too, have put in for T/O back there. I might be considered a 'probie', but I do have an edge. I have a friend out here that had retired from the subway back there as motorman for nine years, (then being promoted as yard master and dispatcher on the BMT) He has driven (operated) every piece of rolling stock that is on the BMT and IND. Detergent trains, revenue collection trains, every series from the Hi-V's to the R38's. Through him, I have an edge of knowing the signalling system quite estensively, and general train operation. By the way, when he had retired, he came out to California (by train, of course) and had worked for MUNI for a decade. It was he that had almost quite literally kept the MUNI system going (so far as within the scope of rail operation). He's retired now (or is he?) as he has been working on several 16mm film projects on the history of the subway system from opening day on 27.X.'04 with mayor McClellan at the controller, to the present. He has done several 'Railway Newsreels' and has written an extensive work on the history of the original sybway company, the IRT. When I had told him that for the first time in the NYCT history that they were hiring off the street (open competitive) he was surprised and couldn't figure why they were doing so. That is fine with me, as I had wanted to do this for a very long time! He made a comment that as a 'rookie' I would start out in the yards. But from what I have read on this site, it seems that the reverse is true now. So I would like to know, keeping my fingers crossed that I can be successfully hired on, ('No, don't bother keeping your fingers crossed, you had better keep your legs crossed instead, so they won't f**k you over back there!') Doesn't he have a great sense of humour? So, what is your guess, would I start out in the yards performing and dividing trains and shunting them about, or would I actually hit the road either with an actual run, or being on the 'board'? I hear many people complain about the subway, but I tell you, I don't care what people should say, it is, and so long as she holds many world records, she shall remain my favourite system, and I just hope that I can get on as a driver (motorman or train operator) soon!
I was just curious as to what the top Speed is for Metro North Trains on the New Haven Line.
I didn't notice any crossings on my last trip between Greenich and Grand Central Station, there aren't any on the entire line, correct?
If there are then I answered my own question because 79mph is the top speed with crossings.
But if there aren't as it appears, how fast would say an express train between Stamford and 125th St. get going.
I estimated 90 m.p.h. last time, but could be totally wrong.
Thanks again for your help in advance!
BJ
The fastest stretch on the New Haven Line is from MP17.2 west of Larchmont to MP 21.4 west of Harrsion which has 90 mph on all four tracks. East of MP21.4 is is either 70 or 75 MPH to New Haven.
West of 17.2 its 70 to Pelham then 60 to CP 112 (Woodlawn Jct).
Larry,RedbirdR33
I've timed 95mph through the Larchmont area. Some Amtrak conductor told me it's really 100, though everyone at Metro-North says' it's 90. I was under the imprerssion that they both run under the same speed restrictions, and that Metro-North was the one who set those restrictions.
Since the New Haven Line is Metro-North they set the speed limits and Amtrak must abide by them. However this is not to say that occassionally the speed doesn't get exceeded, most MN diesel and EMUs are capable of doing 100+.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Even with a "speed limit" over speed indicators on engines can allow engines to operate past the speed limit for a limited time.
AEM7's over speed is set at 125mph and I've seen video tape of an engine hitting 128mph before train line brake application >G<.
On another tape the speedometer connnected to the overspeed was wrong, they were getting warnings at 120mph, if they didn't slow down the train would have gone into emergancy. AEM7's have two speedometers and the engineer is required by rule to carry "a timing device" so he can measure via wayside mileposts the speed of the train. Amtrak employee timetables list which mile markers are exactly a mile apart.
This is all on the Amtrak owned corridor, not metronorth.
BTW, 110mph is the limit on some of the Empire Corridor to Albany, the Turbo trains used to do it (FL9's never got close >G<), I don't know if the Gennises engines can/
About the FL9s - The Amtrak FL9s could hit 90MPH North of Cold Spring when in use by Amtrak. I think MNCR FL9As and FL9Ms could do about the same speed so long as they had time and distance to get up to that speed.
The FL9ACs could do atleast that fast - possibly faster.
[I was just curious as to what the top Speed is for Metro North Trains on the New Haven Line.
I didn't notice any crossings on my last trip between Greenich and Grand Central Station, there aren't any on the entire line, correct?
If there are then I answered my own question because 79mph is the top speed with crossings.]
The 79 mph limit has to do with signalling, not the presence of grade crossings. It can be exceeded only when there are certain types of signalling (someone else should be able to give a better answer). It doesn't matter whether there are or are not any grade crossings.
Metro-North's New Haven line has no grade crossings on the main line to New Haven. There are some on its New Canaan, Danbury and Waterbury branches.
The 79 mph speed limit applies to any rail line with out a Cab Signaling System. However I think that some lines out west have had this waived because Amtraks can get up to 90 mph w/o CSS out there. Having just traveled on the New Haven line (Amtrak) Solely based on personal observation I would say that the speed limit is about 50 mph!! Its one hell of a slow ride with all that construction they're doing. :(
i once clocked them at 97 mph south of stanford ct. we where on local tracks. i wouldn't want at the edge of a patform in that area.
could it be any worse(or better..) than some places down on the NEC?
So the trains only do 90 for that little strech and 75 the rest of the way to New Haven, that seems kind of weird just that little strech is so fast, but I guess the quick acceleration and de-acceleration would be pretty cool.
I didn't notice this on my last trip, but it was several years ago and I was pretty young.
That's funny how dangerous the Metra Trains are and they do 79m.p.h. on any express train with a crossing every other block! The Electric line is reduced to 45 in Chicago which I don't understand why, proabaly something with the signalling.
Anyway, my other question would be, is Metro-North converting to diesel trains, or just using some on it's Electric lines??
Being from Metra territory, I personally enjoy the Electric trains, but I guess it would be pretty cool to see a diesel going 90 m.p.h.
BJ
PS: The South Shore Line has to be the most dangerous with trains goign through peoples back-yards at 79mph. The operator has the train in full gear and you can stare down the endless track between Michingan City and S. Bend Airport.
Well first off the New Haven line is has a lot of corners only that one section is straight enough for them to get up to 90+MPH. As for Metro North converting to Diesels at the rate it's going the opposite is happening. As is Metro North only has to use diesels on parts of it's 4 lines Port Jervis (all diesel), New Haven (waterbury branch), Harlem, and Most of the Hudson line. So I highly doubt that Metro North would be converting to disels.
[As is Metro North only has to use diesels on parts of it's 4 lines Port Jervis (all diesel), New Haven (waterbury branch), Harlem, and Most of the Hudson line. So I highly doubt that Metro North would be converting to disels.]
Both the Danbury and Waterbury branches of the New Haven line are diesel-only. Danbury was electrified at some point, but the catenary was removed many years ago (supposedly for use on the New Haven RR's Bay Ridge line, but I can't attest to that). Waterbury has never been electrified. The Harlem line is diesel-only north of Brewster North, as is the Hudson line north of Croton Harmon.
With the newest order of Shoreliner IV coaches and more Genesis engines the diesel hauled equiptment is covering several limited stops run that are entirely within electrified territory. They have displace a number of the ACMU's (1100 series).
Larry,RedbirdR33
From what I've heard, Metro-North has a nice MU shortage too.
Which stinks cause those diesels of theirs accelerate real *s-l-o-w*
I'm guessing once new MUs arrive, they'll head beack towards electrics in electric territory. Realize that as cool as the ACMUs are, they're old, and though they're in good shape, they don't have automatic doors, and a few conductors I've talked to say that makes them nervous - people jump on/off while the train's moving.
I've also heard talk of a new thrid rail/overhead locomotive (to replace the ageing and VERY complicated M 2/4/6) and even a third rail/diesel/overhead "triple mode", though I don't think that's really a possibilty (or even desireable).
Also, it's interesting to note that NJT rejected dual mode ops (too unreliable / expensive / no existing overhead/diesel locomotive), instead opting to electrify the Boonton line, whereas the DVARP* wants Septa to get a yet untested overhead / diesel dual mode. Thus, while MN really isn't changing much, NJT is still electrifying, and the DVARP wants Septa to go backwards...
*Delaware valley Association of rail passengers. They also question Septa's desire to rebuild some Silverliners with new electronics, including 60hz capacity. Quote: (http://www.dvarp.org/capbud2000.html)
"We also seriously question the need to provide these cars with the capability to operate on 60 Hertz power. Is SEPTA intending to convert its system to 60 Hertz, and if so, why?"
I'm not sure WHY they're questioning it (other than the silverliner II / III cars ARE getting old, but they're stainless). It's downright sensible to provide the cars with such capacity - if/when Septa has to do power upgrades, they'll be able to go over to 60hz, which I'd assume is cheaper.
They also seem to be impressed with GE's proppsed Genisiss 3, though I question why they're impressed with an electric that can do 60mph and start a train on a 3% grade - if I were shopping for an electric, I'd excpect / demand such performance (minimal). Not to mention that it can't run electric for (unspecified) long periods - which means they'd have to get through Suburban / Market east, etc, fairly quickly.
And of course, NJT must know about this proposed unit too - and they've apparently rejected it.
One final note - doesn't Amtrak run dual modes through the Hudson Tunnels? I know there's an existing third rail there, and it looks maintained...
10/27/99
What is the fate of those Jersey Arrow II's(1200 series) sitting out in the Meadows in New Jersey? I understand SEPTA isn't interesting in acquiring them. I think SEPTA is only interested in the ALP-44'S And Bombardier cars. If SEPTA would buy the ARROW II's and rehab them,they would certainly renumber them into the next MU vacant number slot,which would 500 series. And that's their original number series when they were new. Also they have lavatories,I believe SEPTA's MU's have no lavatories. I never seen one.
Bill Newkirk
The Silverliner II's #201-219 were built with lavatories as were the Silverliner III's (aka Lateliners)#220-239 were also built with lavatories. I believe that some of the III's were intended for Harrisburg service and presumably the folks west of Paoil have weaker bladders than those living east of it. I did ride most of the SEPTA Rail System in 1984 and did not find any lavs in use.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Amtrak runs dual modes into Penn, but they're from the Hudson Division, coming down the old West Side line through the "new" connector. I don't believe that the third rail continues through the tunnels to New Jersey, and in any event it's not used even if it does.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The third rail runs all the way to just outside the portal on the Jersey side. It's used infrequently by the leased TA electric locomotive when crews are working on the overhead wire. I'm told that occasionly LIRR MU trains use the tube for relay moves, but only rarely when there's some other problem.
I stand corrected. Funny how I've never noticed it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In the heady spirit of these Second-Avenue-minded times, I've been thinking about the tube that's occasionally suggested to continue that line from, say, Whitehall and Water Sts., evading with difficulty the Joralemon tube, to connect to the Court St. IND stub for Fulton St. local service. With the C out of the Cranberry St. tunnel (and reversing at WTC or, if we're very ambitious, heading to Staten Island), how many more A trains would be able to run to/from Brooklyn? Would the A be able to use the tunnel to its (the tunnel's) full capacity, or would the bottleneck at Columbus Circle (where the D joins the tracks) replace the Canal St. bottleneck in limiting the number of trains per hour?
I've just finished "Moving Millions" by Fischler and it was very
interesting to learn of plans that were and that were not to be. For
instance, the original plan called for having a subway line (ground)
run down the center of the long Isalnd Expressway to help move the
masses. This was also considered for the Van Wyck. A subway/el moves
from 40,000 to 50,000 an hour. Whereas a highway moves about 1,500.
Some former politician wanted total control over the highway develop-
ment of New York City to stay in the good graces of his friends over
at Genereal Motors, something about more cars and buses and more stock
dividiends. It's still more cost effective to expand an existing rail
system than it is to create a new highway. In the one horse town where
I live, the bus runs from 6 to 6 and that's it. The cab company has
nothing but old Volares and Fairmonts for cars and old rummies for
drivers. The last passenger service ended with a one-car operation
that ended about fifteen years ago. Sometimes I feel that I'd love to
move back to New York just to ride the trains. Now I have to do it as
a tourist. I rode the old 3rd Ave. El, Myrtle Ave. El and many IRT/
BMT connections having lived in the Bronx, Queens and Brooklyn,
respectively. I am searching my archives for old photos to share with
this site. thanks for letting me share. Please feel free to do the same.
I've always thought that most of the highways in this region including the interstates should have been built with tracks down the middle. Of course, it didn't happen.
Thanks to Robert Moses. This is the Q Broadway Brighton Express via Man Bridge and 63 St Tunnel to Jamaica Center, Next stop Sheapshead Bay
That covers the city, but what about the rest of NY, NJ, and Conn.?
At first, it seems like a rapid transit line in an expressway median is a good idea. It saves space, and provides for a "convinent" transit corridor. However, living here in Chicago, where many of our lines are in expressway medians (we were the pioneer in that form of construction), I can tell you that it's really not a very good idea.
For one thing, rapid transit lines in medians seperate the stations from the communities that they are supposed to serve. Most of the establishments around expressways are oriented towards cars, not rail passengers. No one likes walking over a long, noisy, cold expressway bridge just to access the station entrance.
I think Chicago has realized it's mistake, because the Midway (Orange) line, opened in 1993, is not in an expressway median, even though it runs right next to an expressway with a median that was actually built to handle rapid transit.
-Jacob
It may depend on where it is. The DC Metro's Orange Line out to Vienna, Va., runs in the median of I-66, but it's far enough out on the line the station is also oriented towards cars, with a park-ride garage (that they need to expand), and from there a walkway to the station in the highway's median.
Running the trains down the median in a more inner-city area would be a little more intimidating.
Good luck finding a place to park at one of those stations afyer 8.30AM. Everytime I visit family and drive into get a place to park, it seems I park closer to DC and pay more for parking. The last couple times I wound up paying $5.00 walked 3 blocks in the snow at I forget which GMU Station, near a shopping center. It would be nice if WMAMTA would run more Park and Ride busses, like from Tysons Corners to Vienna etc. It takes more time to find a place to park as I said.
I agree that siting subways in the middle of expressways is not a good idea. Walking across a dark passage, and standing while cars and fumes whizz by, removes the advantage or riding the train.
Personally, I like the embankment train in a private ROW the best -- less noise than an El, but not underground until you reach the center of the city. Only the Brighton is like that in NYC. Ideally, stations should be located on local main streets, so you can run errands on the way to/from the train. Most of NYC's stations are like that.
Commuter rail in the burbs are another matter. You're probably driving in anyway, so a location near the expressway is more convenient. The adjacent parking lot can be for a shopping mall, to attract the post-work errand crowd while benefitting from the expressway on the weekend. Plus, if the highway backs up, having the train beat the cars is great advertsing.
I saw on the Washington Post's Web site earlier today that WMATA is building a new garage at Vienna to hold about 2,000 cars. Don't remember when it's supposed to open, but....
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
That should fill up by 7.00AM, then what?
In Philadelphia, the MFSE runs in the middle of I-95 for a little (only one station). Actually, what happens is that after 2ND street, the line's farthest eastbound underground station, it turns and comes out of the tunnel, right in the middle of highwayville, and goes into the median of I-95. Spring Garden station is located right in the middle, and waiting there can be pretty bad because of all of the noise. Another disadvantage is that during most hours, I-95 is not jammed, and trains go very slow on this curvy segment, so it makes the MFSE look bad compared to cars. But this can be extremely fun during a traffic jam, when the slow train can beat the cars.
OK, now that I've ridden the new shuttle for the first time today, a couple of questions:
1) Before and after the reno's, I notice old trolley-style poles along the route. Were there trolley operations here at any time?
2) Was the exposed brick in the circular tunnel next to Botanic Gardens always there and recently exposed, or have they recently been put there?
3) The connection between Franklin Avenue (IRT) and Botanic Gardens is VERY short. Why didn't it occur to them to make that connection in the 50+ years previous, since consolidation?
www.forgotten-ny.com
The original electrification of the Brighton Line was by trolley wire, so these poles may be a survival of that, maybe used more recently to carry feeder cables.
Trolleys did operate on the Brighton from a ramp at Prospect Park station south. I don't know that regular trolleys ever used the line north of Prospect Park.
The brick was always there, you just couldnt see it in the dark.
The connection was always intended--that is in fact why the stations are that close and why the mezzanine on the IRT was built. Remember, of course, that when the stations were built, it would not have been a free transfer, just an enclosed one. My hunch is that plans were changed during construction (the Shuttle station, and parts of the lower half of the line, were designed to be expandible to 4 tracks), and the connection wasnt completed at that time because it might have interfered with something else that never happened. That's just a guess tho. After that, it probably wasnt ever considered worth doing.
I checked out the line today. The elevator connecting the Manhattan bound C with the shuttle was out of order; the escalator connecting the Euclid bound C with the shuttle was out of order. It was a long steep climb up! The emergency stop cover emits an alarm when it is raised, yet either the escalator was truly broken or some vandal pushed the button. That may become a problem at school dismissal time unless a cop is babysitting the escalator. Ghetto screens on the signals in the station to prevent target practice on the lens' by customers waiting for the train; 2 cops at Park Place. Any customer running to the booth there with the train already in the station won't know which direction the train is going, yet it is a very attractive station. Botanic Gardens' brick underpass at Eastern Pkwy was clean and well lit as well as the station's lighting. The R68 cars all had their glass panels replaced, and the side panels were shined up so the scratches there were less noticable. No doubt the glass taken out will be seen on the N line 68's to replace the existing glass when it breaks!
Yeah, I noticed the escalator at Fulton wasn't working, but chalked it up to typical MTA operations... only turn it on during rush hours. I'd hate to be 75+ and need to use that line today.
I noticed as much scratchiti on the shuttle cars as any other time. I thought they were working on some sort of scratch resistant plastic or perspex (as the Brits say) to foil the vandals?
Nice job on Botanic Gardens and Park Place, but Fulton seems rather soulless despite the stained glass. (I think Westchester Square is the only other station with stained glass? Anybody?)
The Myrtle station on the Bway El has stained glass on the fare control/mezz level. If you drive N/B on Myrtle from Lewis Av under the unused & trackless stretch of the old Myrtle Av El you can see the stained glass windows in the station right above the street just S/O Broadway.
And of course the not-yet-part-of-the-Transit-Museum City Hall station has its original stained-glass ceiling, although in need of some repair from what I read.
Any customer running to the booth there with the train already in the station won't know which direction the train is going
This is a very interesting observation. Is there an indicator light on the platform that points to the train's direction of travel, or a sign that might illuminate to indicate the shuttle's next stop?
When the Dyre Ave shuttle runs late at night, only the Manhattan bound track is used for both directions, right? If so, has this been a problem to those riders (or not since it's late nights only, whereas it's like this on the Franklin Shuttle at all times)?
--Mark
On Saturday, i past buy the 207th Street Yard and saw 3 of the new subway cars there(The ones they used on the A, not sure if these are R110A or R110B). Why dont they run in 6 car service, or split it as 2 car trains and send them over to the Franklin Avenue shuttle?
and when is the Q getting new cars, and which will they be?
Why would the Q get new cars? It's cars are not the oldest
This is Metropolitan Avenue-Fresh Pond Road, change for the M
The next stop on this W train will be Cooper Avenue-Glendale.
They're R-110Bs, and NYCT does run the six operable cars as a C train. The set couldn't be split into three 3-car sets for Franklin Shuttle service, since the Franklin Shuttle platforms are now 170' long, too short for three 67' cars (201').
As for the Q getting new cars, here's what's happening:
212 R-143 cars are on order. They'll fill up the L line (to work with the new CBTC signaling), and whatever's left will likely land somewhere in the Eastern Division (J/Z or M).
660 BMT-IND cars are planned to be ordered under the 2000-2004 Capital Program. They'll begin to replace the 1960s-era 60' cars (series R-32 through R-42). It's likely (according to the Capital Program book) that the only R-32s to be replaced by these cars will be the ten that were overhauled by General Electric, probably because of their air conditioning problems. Where will the new cars run? Well, you keep asking where the R-142 and R-142A cars will run, and they were ordered long ago. It's WAY too soon to say definitively where the new cars will run.
David
[On Saturday, i past buy the 207th Street Yard and saw 3 of the new subway cars there(The ones they used on the A, not sure if these are R110A or R110B). Why dont they run in 6 car service, or split it as 2 car trains and send them over to the Franklin Avenue shuttle?
and when is the Q getting new cars, and which will they be?]
I would expect that the R40 and R42 would be the first to go from the BMT/IND. But most of those cars are still in good shape, but the R32 and R38 are much better. It's most likely that they will be additional cars for more service, with just a few replacements.
-Hank
Nope R-38s will go first. R-40, R-40M, R42s next. R-32s last.
Actually, it'll likely be the other way around. My understanding is that the problems plaguing the R-40Ss are less soluable than those on the R-38s. As for the R-32s, they (at least 300 of them) may be around for another 15 years as another overhaul is being planned for the Phase Is.
The R38's are not in the next capital plan's budget to get overhauled. The R40/42 and the R32 are. The R38 will probably be the first to go.
But this is way off in the future, probably a decade away.
Actually, NO cars are to be overhauled under the Capital Program. Car overhauls are now done under the Scheduled Maintenance System (SMS), which is funded by the operating budget, not the capital budget.
David
[The R38's are not in the next capital plan's budget to get overhauled. The R40/42 and the R32 are. The R38 will probably be the first to go.
But this is way off in the future, probably a decade away.]
That's basically what I meant. The R38 is not on the list of cars to be overhauled.
Some must die so others may live. The three cars are organ donors for the other 6.
The "Q" doesn't need new cars just yet; the Slant R40s they run are quite adequate (except for the seats).
Wayne
Hi. I regret that I haven't lived in the greater New York City area since the 1970's! (I have been back there on subsequent jaunts since however). Upon reviewing the other responses, I am relieved that much of the older rolling stock is still in active service. Since the R42's I have been quite disappointed with the R44-46's and the novel Kawasaki stock that is in use on the IRT division. Why? The cab across design! Even since my favourite system the New York subway system decided to shy away from the smaller drivers (motorman's) cab in lieu for this cab across system, I have not been very pleased. The new system leaves much to be desired in regard to headend viewing through UNtinted unobstructed end door windows that unfortunately are fast disappearing! This has been always a halmark of the planets largest underground railway system, front end viewing by the passengers! There must be a struggle or some effort to convince the MTA that this is a bad direction to go. Not only does place a damper upon headend viewing (which can foster an interest in this field in the first place) but this system also eliminates the ability of passing through from one carriage to another directly (especiall while the train is in motion). I am so glad that the R42's and earlier stock is still out on the road, for this one reason alone. When I had lived back there, I had virtually almost quite litterally 'lived' on the subway system, spending hours at the front window enjoying the sights such as the rail, the signals, etc., as I indeed have been on every kilometre of revenue trackage (and City Hall loop inclusive!)
Well, I had just put in my application for 'train operator #9058' and I can only hope that I can succeed in getting on with the subway. If this be the future sole means to get front end viewing, then so be it! Quite obviously, the driver (or motorman, if you will) needs forward vision in order to operate the bloody trains! I don't know about the R110's or the R147's how they are in this regard. I must get back to my favourite American city very soon as to still have the opportunity (as a passenger) to enjoy the sights! I thought that I would just pass this on.
If you have a five car set like on the IRT, then transverse cabs do little to impair intercar travel. The 75 foot b-div cars won't allow intercar travel anyway. And besides, the post R-42s have better seats, since I prefer to sit, this is good. Also, the needs of the crew are more important. Oh BTW, it's R-142.
This is State Boulevard
The next stop on this W train will be Little Neck Parkway
That's "State (Commonwealth) Boulevard-Douglaston Park Golf Course", with one station entrance right behind the 17th Green and another one along the 18th Fairway.
Wayne
Now that I go to school at Wesleyan University I come home via Amtrak and Penn Station (or Met-N and GCT if I want to save $) I have some NYC area rail questions. First how do Amtrak Empire Service trains get into Penn Station. Second, is Mott Haven yard still there and if not what happened to it? Third is that "exaust producing locomotive" ban (ie the famous steam ban) still in effect? Can one run 'active' diesels into PS: NYC or GCT? Thank you for any anyanswers.
1) Magic! Actually, there's a rail line down the west side from the Hudson line to Penn.
2) It's somewhat there. I think it started to shrink in size around the time NY Central started cutting back on service. Metro-North trains still pass through the area though.
3) Yes. No. But MN does it anyway with the FL-9s.
"First how do Amtrak Empire Service trains get into Penn Station."
Phil may have given the correct answer, however Amtrak does run thru service trains on the NH line over the Hell Gate Bridge to Penn Sta.
"Now that I go to school at Wesleyan University ..."
In Middletown CT ? My mom lives just down the road a piece from there & I go down Washington & Main Streets when I visit her !
Look for some interesting trains visiting there since it became part of P&W.
Mr t__:^)
Heck, NYCTA run's it "exaust producing locomotives" right though the platforms >G< on MOW trains.
What are the unit numbers of the R-68s owned and maintained at Concourse?
Currently Concourse has 292 cars beginning with 2500. However, currently concourse uses cars up to number 2797.
Currently Concourse shop has 284 R-68s PLUS 8 R-68s on loan from Conel Islend. Once the SMS program is completed, the Concourse fleet will be cars 2500 through 2783.
I'm looking for photos of the manhattan beach line of the LIRR that ran along side today's D train-brighton line. Particularly of the stations along the route along with the tracks that led to the sheapshead bay racetrack. If anyone out there knows of any pictures I'd greatly appreciate it. Thanks
Although I don't know where to find pictures of the trainline if you are interested in pictures of the racetrack itself there are pictures and a program from Sheepshead Bay at the National Museum of Racing & Hall of Fame in Saratoga Springs, NY on Union Av across from the track. There were also Gravesend Racetrack and Coney Island Racetrack in those days too. The Sheepshead Bay Handicap at Belmont and the Gravesend Handicap at Aqueduct were actually first run at those successive tracks.
There's a book, I believe it's called 'Old Brooklyn in Photograhs', which has a very good photo of the Manhattan Beach line on Oriental Blvd. While this photo is, of course, not of one that parallels today's Brighton line, it does give you a look at the rolling stock that was used on the the LIRR's Manhattan Beach branch. I don't have the book, but if memory serves me correct, the equipment used were 4-4-0 steam engines and center entrance passenger cars, somewhat similar to Brooklyn Union 'Gate cars'.
- Jeffrey
Also look in the beginning of book Brooklyn Elevated, there is some info in the very beginning and photos too
Here's some more information.
Old Brooklyn in Early Photographs published by Dover Publications does have a picture of a LIRR steam engine pulling two cars at the Manhattan Beach Station. This is on the Manhattan Beach side of Sheepshead Bay
The racetrack was on the Sheepshead Bay side of Sheepshead Bay. In fact, according to one of my books I am sitting on one of the boundaries of the track Ocean Ave. and Jerome Ave. That is from Brooklyn's Gold Coast by Brian Merlis published by the Sheepshead Bay Historical Society. There are pictures of the track, but as best as I can scan it now there is no pictures of LIRR.
In another book by Merlis Welcome Back To Brooklyn, there are 2 pictures. One on page 140 of a Railroad Crossing at Sheepshead Bay Road and East 16th, dated 1903, with no train in picture. And then on page 115, a 1900 scene of the Manhattan Beach Branch at East 18th Street looking north from Avenue U. This shows a steam engine heading on a two track line.
I've lived in Sheepshead Bay all my life, 55 years, and I still don't know how that line ran. What a tribute to my curiosity.
Now for some resources:
Brian Merlis has a business called Brooklyn Collectibles out in Lynbrook 516-593-4505. One of the guys from Subtalk has dealt with him.
The Brooklyn Public Library has a Brooklyn History Division. The library's website is www.brooklynpubliclibrary.org
The Brooklyn Historical Society is one of the main keepers of Brooklyn History. They have been in process of renovating their building in downtown Brooklyn, but you can try them.
Kingsborough Community College Library has a collection also, I think.
These references were all listed in the Merlis book on Sheepshead Bay.
If you find any other pictures, I'd be interested in knowing. Maybe I'll get to know the area I exist in. Paul
THANKS FOR THE MANHATTAN BEACH INFO PAUL, I ALSO HAVE HAD PROBLEMS FINDING PICTURES OF THIS LINE AND OF THE SHUTTLE THAT RAN FROM THE NECKROAD STATION TO THE RACETRACK. THEY ALL SEEM TO BE FROM FAR AWAY AND HAVE LITTLE DETAIL ABOUT THE NECKROAD STATION WHOSE STAIRWAYS LEADING TO THAT STATION I BELIEVE STILL EXIST, I NO LONGER LIVE IN THAT AREA.
JOE
You guys always manage to bring back childhood memories for me. I grew up not far from Neck Rd. station, and frequently played on the abandoned stairways to the defunct Manhattan Beach Line station.
Also, in those days, there were no houses on the west side of E 16th St south of Neck Rd, and you could clearly see the ramps from the ROW for the branch off the Brighton subway line to Sheepshead Bay Racetrack. I also recall some vacant lots in the area where you could still see remnants of the foundations of the racetrack buildings and grandstands.
-- Ed Sachs
You can still see the ramp if you look out the side windows of the southbound local after leaving Neck Road station. However, work that was done on the line this past year somewhat spoiled the formerly smooth road bed. It still is discernable. Also if you walk along East 15th street and look at the ROW between the houses you can see the descending concrete wall of the ramp.
Brian Merlis was mentioned previously (I think on this thread). I've obtained pictures of the ramp and the underpasses from him in addition to pics of the Neck road station of the Manhattan Beach line. Definitely worth contacting him.
And on an off topic note (probably should be listed under "Future Rail Fans"), my sons Joseph Abraham Glick and Benjamin Ali Glick entered our world last night at 10pm. Sons and mom are doing fine. I'm a bit frazzled, though. This is the first chance I've had to think about trains in about 16 hours.
Congtaulations---may their ride be joyful.
Congratulations---may their ride be joyful.
CONGRADULATIONS!!!
MAZEL TOV!!!!
Mazel Tov! A double bris!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, the ramp your talking about went to the Sheepshead Bay Race Track, which was centered around Ocean Av and Av Z. If you want to see an actual piece of the Manhattan Beach line, go to Neck Road on the D train, and look at the concrete stairway to nowhere on the corner. You can still see R of W traces behind apartment buildings near Av I and Av J, where it "Y" connected into the Bay Ridge line.
Also, the small median strip at Corbin Place and the extension of Brighton Beach Av is where the terminal was. Off of Neptune (Emmons) Av there is what appears to be a signal bridge embedded into whats now used as a garage.
Congratulations.
>>Brian Merlis has a business called Brooklyn Collectibles out in Lynbrook 516-593-4505. One
of the guys from Subtalk has dealt with him. <<
Brian has a house full of ancient Brooklyn/Queens/NYC memorabilia, pictures and maps. Only my budget keeps me from dealing more with him...
Newsday has been running a "LI Our Future" series for some time now. I heard on my favorite FM radio station this morning that this week will feature mass transit.
Sunday had a three part feature in 5 pages:
1. LIRR - Grand Central project, incl. some stats
2. NYC Subway photo of simulator for new IRT
3. Amtrak/Acela ... mostly yada yada yada
Mr t__:^)
The articles are also available online.
For LIRR:
http://future.newsday.com/10/ftop1024.htm
For the subways in Queens:
http://future.newsday.com/10/fqtp1024.htm
For Amtrack/Acela:
http://future.newsday.com/10/ftra1024.htm
Being your typical Subway Buff I took the LIRR to Penn Sta, sent the wife to the MVM to buy two Fun Passes (her first visit to that machine), meanwhile I scanned some new cards I had acquired.
I arrived downtown with the wife about noonish. For me it was more of a chance to converse with Subtalkers then serious trading. Met Bill Newkirk & talked with friends Mark W, Mark F., Allan, Andy and a few others. It was a nice crowd, incl. a lot of selling and trading. My best deal was a unopened #29 Bronx Zoo for a unique Transfer. I also gave out a few cards to friends who now owe me something nice. Apparently I have a Transfer that not many others do, it's a orange one with a price of $1.25. I got it when the TA was introducing the new farebox to my firm (sorry, I don't have any extras as the TA was very stingy with them)
After, I took the wife back to 34th and shopped at Conways (that's why she came with me). Wore my new coat to work today. It was a lovely day in the city, sorry if you missed it !
Mr t__:^)
Sunday's Daily News had a short article about this event. Apparently reporter Mary Sisson was there as several attendees comments are quoted in her article.
Next swap meet scheduled for Febuary, according to Helmut Loibl.
Mr t__:^)
Over the past few years, we've had a few threads on SubTalk about what might happen to the subway if there were a moderate to strong earthquake in NYC. My personal contention is that there is risk of such a quake, and that the system is quite vulnerable.
I've heard that on November 14, CBS-TV will air the first part of a two-part miniseries, Aftershock: Earthquake in New York. On that same day, WNBC-TV (channel 4) Newscenter 4 will begin a three-part series on the same topic. Why? Channel 4's Chuck Scarborough wrote the book on which the CBS miniseries is based.
It sounds like something that would be run during a "sweeps week". I think NBC is running a telemovie about Y2K causing everything to run amok during that same period.
--Mark
EarthQuake in NY the movie will be on Nov 14.
y2k will be on Nov 21.
AK
Frankly, I think I'd rather watch the history of NYC on PBS, which also starts on the 14th. I was hoping the city would get a lift from the publicity of the PBS project. I guess NBC has other ideas.
The Earthquake can happen, as to the PBS program, you have to remember that PBS shows are not shown as other Networks. What may be on PBS in New York, most likely will not be shown in other cities at all. Each PBS station has its own schedule
Anyone know how/where one can find PBS listings for their individual affilliates? I tried calling the local one and wasn't given any decent answer other than to "look in the newspaper", which only gives the listings 6 days in advance at the most.
Saw an "Earthquake in NYC" movie during the summer. Don't remember if it was a two-part though (could have been). Anyway, this one copped footage from "Money Train" involving Mod R-21 #51050 and R30A #8408.
Wayne
51050 was also used in "The Taking of Bloor- Danforth" (The poor remake of Pelham 1-2-3)
How much was the fare on the Aqueduct Specials during its lifetime???
What was the list of stops between the now abandoned 42nd/8th Lower Level and Aqueduct???
I heard that these were some of the stops: Hoyt-Schermerhorn, Euclid, Jay St (?), W 4th (?)
Anybody out there have the full history?
Nick
I think the fare was $4.00. You could also buy a token, larger then the normal one. That token was also used on Express buses.
Want one ... e-mail me privately, no markup just cost plus postage.
Mr t__:^)
Although I'm not sure, I think the only station on the way was Hoyt/Schermerhorn. As a teenaged horseplayer before I started driving I went to the Big A 2 ways from East Meadow:The better way: Hempstead Bus Comp from EM to Hempstead (no MSBA or Long Island Bus in those days), LIRR to ENY, "A" to the track.The cheapo way:Hemp Bus Comp to Hempstead, Bee Line to Jamaica, Jamaica El to Bway Junction, "A" to the Track.
To Belmont I just would get off the Bee Line there.
To Yonkers I took the "D" to Bedford Pk Blvd (or the IRT to Woodlawn) and got a shuttle bus. And to The Late Great Roosevelt I just walked along the Meadowbrook from East Meadow.
It stopped after 42, at Penn Station, Jay Street,/Boro Hall
Nick: Rt S Aqueduct Special left 42 St M-F 10a-12n and Sat 10a-1p.
Trains stopped 42 St(LL),Hoyt-Schmerhorn(outer platforms) and Aqueduct Racetrack.
Return service was offered only on Saturdays leaving the racetrack starting at the end of the seventh race stopping at Aqueduct Race Track,Hoyt-Schmerhorn (outer platforms),42 Street (UL) then all regular E express stops to Continental Avenue and layup at Jamaica Yard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just for information, the LIRR had Aqueduct Specials when they still ran the Rockaway Line.
How much was the fare on the JFK Express during its lifetime???
I remember that before it closed around 1992/1993, that the fare was quite high, somewhere between $5 and $6 one way.
Anybody out there have the full history?
Nick
I don't have the full hisory, but I'm pretty sure it started at $3.50.
--Mark
I believe the fare was $5.50-$6.50. The JFK Express was discontinued in 1990.
I believe it was $5.50 plus the cost of a token.
For non-Queens Residents, Queens Residents could pay the token plus the current express bus fare and use the Train to the Plane as an express bus if you will. (I seem to recall this, the fare could have been express bus fare minus the current token fare).
I tried to joyride it in '85 or '86, when the subway fare was 90 cents. The extra fare was $5.10 (a bit too rich for me back then)...thus, the total was $6.00. I think I boarded the train in Manhattan, somewhere south of W 4th, but definitely before Jay St. where I got off.
My own question: How did the rush-hour "A" expresses co-exist in Brooklyn with the "JFK"? Especially since the A had to make several stops while the JFK was non-stop, and both lines presumably ran on local track east of Euclid...
The fare started at $3.50 and went up as the fares went up. If you go on at Howard Beach, you paid the conductor in each car. If you were going to the Airport from 57th On, you paid as usual the token, and then paid the conductor the remaining difference. That was picked up once the train left Jay Street. The Train made all express stops on 57th St south on 6th Ave (50-42-34-W 4th) then changed to 8th Ave Line and stopped at Chambers, and Jay Street Boro Hall, then ran non stop express. If I remember correctly the train always was just in front of the A train. One of the reasons why it was discontinued, that it was only 3-4 minutes faster then the A into Manhatten
I must've gotten on at Chambers, then. Thanks for the info!
There was a discussion about this a few months ago. If I remember correctly the Port Auth. financed this train in some way, because it was targeted for airline customers/employees. As time passed it became clear that more regular subway customers were using it than airline ones (my wife's best friend took it every day from Howard Beach to Con Ed in Manhattan, AND loved it !) ... so the Port Auth. wanted out & TA couldn't see the value in continuing it.
Mr t__:^)
I rode it once in 1984. We sat in the last car of a three-car train of R-46s, which was a bummer considering I would have loved to watch the train make the switchover south of W. 4th St. from 6th Ave. to 8th Ave. local tracks. The conductor would key open one door leaf at each station and announce, "Airport".
Is this a two-way transfer (able to transfer to/from S/B and N/B Franklin Shuttle to/from E/B and W/B IRT)???
Nick
You can transfer to both directions on the shuttle, but the tunnel leads only to the northbound shuttle platform, requiring a crossover to the southbound platform, kind of like the transfer at Borough Hall from the 4/5 to the 2/3/M/N/R.
I remember there was one incident approximately 10 years ago when someone was killed on a W/B #2 line entering Borough Hall station. When I saw the TV the next day, it was showing a R26/28/29 car, does anyone know what car # the incident heppened?
Similarly, does anyone know the car # (last car) where the teen was killed at 149th/3rd 3 or so weeks ago?
Nick
If your referring to the incident in late December, 1990, 2 people died. An electrical explosion in the Clark St. tube killed one person, and another died the next day from a heart attack caused by the accident.
Not sure of the car #.
No, it was Borough Hall sometime in Feb. 1989.
Nick
This seems to be a rare sight on that line.
Has anyone seen such an animal on the #2 in the last three or so months?
If you seen it, was it a 9-car (borrowing from #3) or a 10-car (borrowing from #5) consist?
Nick
I saw 1892-1893 and a few others on the 1 and 9 line ain August. Don't know if they're still there.
AK
No there are back on the No.6 Line. Also 1821-1825 where also on the No.1/9.
A 10 car R62A that was being used on the No.5 Line did make acouple of trips when needed. Which to be exact those cars came from Pelham.
Anyone want to speculate that single cars may be in either division's next order (after the R-142/142As and 143s)???
I think the next IRT order may have single cars somewhere in the order (presumably for #3 or #7 service)...but by then I think the #3 cars could be linked into 3-car units (Has that been done before)?
Is the future for single cars pretty much dead for BMT/IND divisions?
On another note, can either the L or M handle 67' cars nowadays? Are these R-143s 60' or 67' long, and was the R-110B the guinea pig for the R-143?
Nick
The R143 will be 60'. Not sure how they will be linked. The TA went with married pairs/multiple car linkups because it saves a lot of money mainaining these cars, as a set of cars can share equipment, not forcing every car to carry all the equipment it needs by itself. The R62/68 cars were ordered as single units because of the awful mechanical problems that occured in the early 80's. When you have cars permanently linked, you must take them all out of service even if one is broken. Now that those problems have been dealt with, these cars are being linked together.
I think the BMT can still use 67' foot cars, because they were using them only 30 years ago on a regular basis with no problems. I still think the R143 cars should have been 67', as they would have increased capicity on the Eastern Division BMT with absolutley no modifications needed.
The cars on the 3 line are still single units, but I'm not sure what future plans they have for them. Since the 3 can only use 9 cars, I'm sure a number of them will remain unlinked.
The other point is that single cars take up a lot of space with empty train operator/conductor cabs. That's seats for us.
Since the TA has gone to scheduled maintenance rather than reaction to breakdowns, pulling out three cars at once shouldn't be a problem.
I'd have gone with 67 foot cars and three car sets, with one cab on each end of the set. The conductor (when there is one) would be set 2/3 of the way back, with the T/O checking the front third.
The problem with 3 car sets of 67' cars is that they wouldn't be able to run on the eastern division, unless you ran them in 6 car trains, which is considerably shorter than today's 6 car trains of 60' cars. Some way of configuring them into 3 or 4 car sets would allow them to be used everywhere.
er, make that consideraby shorter than today's 8 car trains of 60 footers.
In the days when the Standards reigned, they were configured in 3 car sets and as single cars, so an 8 car train could be assembled from two 3s and two singles. When 250 or so were rebuilt in the late 1950s, the singles were made into two car sets.
I think that having a mix of two and three car sets probably provides for the most flexability in train lengths.
-- Ed Sachs
The BMT Standards that were rebuilt were 2400-2799. Before the rebuild these units were made up as:
BX: three car motor-trailer-motor with 4000 series cars as the trailers.
B: three cars, all motors
A: single cars
In the rebuild, some of the BX's had their trailer cars pulled out and replaced with former A units to become 3-car all motor B units.
The remaining BX's had their motor cars pulled out with no replacement to become two car motor-motor sets called "BTs."
The A types that did not replace the trailers remained single-unit As.
What is considered the BMT eastern division ,and why are there constraints on train length....?
A newbie, Dave
What's left of the BMT Eastern Division consists of the J/Z, M and L trains.
The platforms on the Eastern Division were never lengthened to the current IND/BMT standard of 600+ feet. Instead they're about 60 feet shorter and could accomodate nine 60 foot cars, but this was never done in practice, even when single 60 foot cars were available, so they're limited to eight 60 foot cars.
There are a couple of sharp curves on the J Line where 75 foot cars would not be able to make the turn, so there's even less incentive to lengthen the platforms.
The J, and L, plus the M north of Broad St. are considered the BMT Eastern Division, as opposed to the Southern Division, which include all lines that go through Dekalb Ave. and the Broadway BMT.
The eastern division BMT lines aren't equipped for the normal 600' trains. They usually use 8 cars trains of 60 footers. The 75' cars (R44, 46 and 68) are banned from these lines due to several sharp curves, causing clearance problems, most notebly on the J at Crescent St, the M as it branches of the Broadway line, and the L at Graham Ave. There are also some curves along the Nassau St. line that might be too sharp for the 75 footers as well.
Can 67 footers clear any of the curves listed above????
If so, then a 7-car set of 67' is slightly shorter than 8 60's (469' vs. 480') However, if all the platforms are about 540', then an 8-car set of 67' would be just perfect, providing the curve clearances are met.
Nick
All eastern division platforms are 550 feet and were were built to handle 8 car 67' trains (536'). Since the standards provided the bulk of the service up to the late 60's on these lines, I don't see any place that wouldn't be able to handle cars of this length.
The BMT standards could, and did, run on the Eastern Division lines; in fact, the last ones finished their careers there. The Triplexes were not used because the oldest portion of the Jamaica line, along Fulton St., could not support their weight.
There was a fantrip on the Jamaica line using triplex equipment towards the end of the 168th St. part of the line (1977), so I guess the weight couldn't have been that bad.
11/04/99
Yeah but that was a one time only event , not a daily one. I was there !
Bill Newkirk
Both R-1/9's and R-16's also ended their careers on the Eastern
Division, as did the AB's and the Multis. The Triplexes (D-Types)
last ran on the West End line.
An 8-car set of 67' BMT standards was normal. That's a 536' train, and the platforms are all long enough for them.
-Hank
Basically on The Brighton Local and West End Exp during non rush hours they ran 6 car B Units. During Rush Hours they added 2 Standard As to make a 8 Car Train. I used to love to watch them add and subtract the cars at Stillwell Ave Station on the Northend, oh they also added the extra D Triplex to the sea Beach, and run empty ones thru the station to Brighton Beach for the BB Exp.
Have all R68s (except 2576-79 and the 2916-2924 Franklins) been linked?
Last I saw the R68s in action in July/August, the Coney Island ones have finished (so it seems), but Concourse ones weren't (so many single cars).
Nick
The goal is to have all Concourse cars linked by December 15th. As of now, we are on schedule.
Why such an odd number of cars ordered for that particular contract?
Any other orders for R-series cars (other than the 110B [9 cars]) that were for an odd number of cars?
Nick
There were 75 cars in the R-7 order #1400 - 1474.
There were 101 cars in the R-9 order #1702 - 1802.
The R68's replaced the R16 and R10's, not the R7/9. Those were replaced by the R46.
The figures Steve shows on the R-7s and 9s add up to 176. I think he was only showing that there were other odd orders, not why the R-68 was odd.
Now my question:
The R-27 and R-30 were replaced by the R-68A? What was the oldest car on the IRT when the R-62 came around?
This is Woodhaven Boulevard, change here for the JFK International Train
The next stop on this W train will be Lefferts Boulevard-Richmond Hill
I think the R-68 and R-68A was orders for the same thing, just split between 2 companies.
I ment to say manufacturers.
I don't think any cars replaced the R27-30. They were simply retired. The R68 replaced the R16 and the R68A replaced the R10.
When R68 and R68A cars were coming, this allowed TA to put R32/R38/R40/R42/R44/R46 cars to go under GOH. When these GOH cars were on the road again, R27/R30 Redbirds began to retire in 1992.
Chaohwa
The "B" division is short of cars since the R27/30's were retired. Brian
Not at all. The R-30 was retired as surplus, then ridership surged. One can say that the removal of the R-16 created a shortage. The shortage is caused by an increase in ridership without an increase in new cars.
This is Losechester County-Creedlees, transfer to the F, or not, your choice.
The next stop on this W train will be Commonwealth Boulevard (another one? ugh)
It is tough to say: "What replaced what", because before GOH and new car procurements, the TA needed a larger spare factor because of all the cars out of service for defects. Since then, cars have much less down time.
The Oldest IRT equipment running around when the R62/R62A arrived was probably the R-15; if those had already gone, then it was surely the R-17, some of which survived at least until 1986, maybe beyond that.
Larry RedbirdR33 probably has the exact last dates for all 40's and 50's IRT equipment (except R26/R28 which is still rusting along...)
Wayne
Wayne: Nice to have you back. Here's the dates of the last runs of the IRT R-Types from the Book of Last Runs;
R-12's sometime in September,1981
R-14's and R-15's December 10,1984
R-17's February 29,1988
R-21's and R-22's December 30,1987
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember seeing both R17's and R21/22' disappear by late '87
The R-7 order was for 150 cars; 75 #1400-1474 built by American Car and Foundry and 75 #1475-1549 buil0t by Pullman-Standard.
The R-9 order was for 153 cars; 52 #1650-1701 built by American Car and Foundry and 101 # 1702-1802 built by Pressed Steel.
The reason for the odd number of cars in the R-9 order was to replace two R-1's #212 and 378 and one R-4 # 472 destroyed in the Smith Street Wreck of February 17,1936.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You are correct. I was showing other contracts with odd numbered car orders. I thought that was the question that was asked. But here's a related question. The R-68s were purchased in two orders (Not the R-68As). The original cars were 225 through #2724 and the 200 option cars were 2725 to 2924. My question is more rhetorical than not but if the R-68s were such a poor car right out of the box, why were the option cars purchased?
The R68 had teething prolems early on, but the condition and age of the cars they replaced (R10/R16) pretty much demanded new cars be bought, and quickly.
That and the cost of designing and soliciting bids for addtional cars made ordering more lemmons a better idea.
But lemmons they were. Millions in costly modifications and a whole new propulsion controller later, they are finally seeing the reliability they were meant to.
I see a similar fate awaiting the R143's
BTW, were there similar problems with the R62? Today, they are the most reliable car in service, based on MDBF.
See only the France-made R-68s had problems. The Japanese R-68As had less if any.
Forgot to say... THE R-143s ARE GOING TO BE BUILT BY KAWASAKI! Did you notice that every order that was split between Kawasaki and somebody else, Kawasaki did better?
Speaking of shoddy workmanship, I noticed in the News today that the Leer Jet that crashed in South Dakota taking the life of pro golfer Payne Stewart was built by noneother than BOMBadier. It wouldn't surprise me that their proven incompetence at the railcar quality control division has spread their wings to the great blue skies as well. I'm very curious as to how many retirees from New Car Engineering are now employed at BOMBadier.
[Speaking of shoddy workmanship, I noticed in the News today that the Leer Jet that crashed in South Dakota taking the life of pro golfer Payne Stewart was built by noneother than BOMBadier. It wouldn't surprise me that their proven incompetence at the railcar quality control division has spread their wings to the great blue skies as well.]
The Lear jet that crashed was an older model, dating back to the 1970s. Bombardier hasn't owned Lear for that long.
Also, that model of LearJet has had an excellent safety record.
The last 25 cycle rotary converters will be removed from service this Wednesday the 27th of October at Substation No. 42 in Midtown Manhattan. This the end of era.
I was looking at the track map of all the Manhattan el line @ 1920 on this website and noticed a couple of things that I'm not sure of. So:
1. Was the 2nd Ave. el connected to the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave. el and if it did was their any regular 2nd Ave. el service on the Bronx 3rd. Ave. el?
2. On the 3rd Ave. el there seems to be some sort of turnoff at 42nd st. What ran on this part of the line?
3. Why did both the 3rd. Ave. el and the original IRT subway line in the Bronx have their Bronx Park terminals demolished?
Answer to number 2, the 42nd Street Spur ran West and terminated at Grand Central Term
I haven't witnessed this first hand, but someone has told me that there is an awful lot of "clearing" work (backhoes, etc) on the LIRR Bay Ridge ROW between 8th and 11th Aves in Brooklyn. Can anyone comment?
HMMMN. Isn't that an area where the ill-fated "Brooklyn Junction" development was supposed to be built?
I should know this, but is the Bay Ridge line the one that would be perfect for the one-seat Penn-to-JFK ride? The one abandoned since 1960 or so where it would be untenable to restart service due to political considerations appeasing residents living alongside?
Or is it a different line altogether, and if so, which one?
No, the Bay Ridge Line is the former Manhattan Beach RR line that cuts a semicircle from Bay Ridge through Brooklyn and Queens. It is gradually being rehabilitated as a freight line, operated by he New York and Atlantic. It was never completely closed.
The line that would have been used for the LIRR JFK train that the locals have blocked is the line that used to link the LIRR Main Line at White Pot (near Forest Hills) in a straight line through Ozone Park to hook up with the current NYCTA Rockaway Line.
Paul: Thanks for the info. That line has a name, though, that everyone uses to discuss it ... The "FILL IN THE BLANK HERE" Line ... doesn't it?
The Old Rockaway Branch?
The Committee for Better Transit styles it "the Apple Corridor." But they also call the line to be built over the Van Wyck, "the Van Wyck El." That's not supposed to be a compliment.
I can't think of any other names off the bat, but maybe my brain is just off track.
When the NYNH & H used to run it, it was called the Bay Ridge Branch, nothing fancy, just the Bay Ridge Branch
When the NYNH & H used to run it, it was called the Bay Ridge Branch, nothing fancy, just the Bay Ridge Branch
I think we're getting two questions mixed up here. I think the immediate question was "What is the old line from White Pot Jct. through Ozone Park to the current IND Rockaway Line called, other than just 'the old Rockaway Line.' "
The official name for the line from WIN tower to Rockaway Park was the "Rockaway Beach Branch." The line from DRAW Tower to Valley Stream via Far Rockaway was the Far Rockaway Branch."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ozone Park Branch, if that is the branch that cut off just after the Rego Park On The Main Line, when the LIRR ran all the way to the Rockaways it was the Rockaway Park Branch
NY&A president Fred Krebs has it in his mind that keeping the line clean will look better.
I can't really argue with that, and he's trying. He had crews out painting over graffitti, which was promptly painted over with spray paint. And there were some work release prisonrs cleaning trash up too. He had a fence thrown up around the yard at Fresh Pond and hired security to patrol the grounds.
The results speak for themselves, as NY&A apparently is keeping head above water.
I've noticed that slowly but surely the ROW west of 14th Ave/62nd Street in Brooklyn is slowly but surely starting to get cleaned up. From the windows of the N train, I've noticed a lot less debris, wrecked autos, discraded tires etc. than I used to see back in the early 90s.
Part of the problem down at the Bay Ridge end of the line had a lot to do with the easy accesibility of the cut to illegal dumpers.
61st Street between 8th and 14th Avenues was a good example back then. The south (railroad) side of the block had a low wall about 4-5 feet in height along with the unsecured stairways (for Buckeye Pipeline repair crews) it was easy for slobs to toss crap into the cut and forget about it. It wasn't until a few years ago after years worth of complaints from the neighborhood that chain-link fencing was installed and reapirs were done by the City DOT to the adjopning sidewalk.
However NY&A's battle is still far from over, IMHO. Last week, I was walking up 61st Street near 13th Avenue, and I've noticed that the illegal dumpers have taken to leaving the mess on the sidwalk alongside the fence which is making a nice breeding ground for rats.
Until the city starts to clean up this stretch, the railroad will have to contend with a pretty serious vermin problem during the warmer months.
From a moving train vermin isn't really a problem. Debris is. I used to have to ride on the front of the engine to be sure that there were actually rails there. If not that then to be sure the debris wasn't bad enough to derail us.
Once, there was an actual boulder! How or why it was there, I don't know.
Yeah, all sorts of weird crap end up on that ROW!
I've noticed that slowly but surely the ROW west of 14th Ave/62nd Street in Brooklyn is slowly but surely starting to get cleaned up. From the windows of the N train, I've noticed a lot less debris, wrecked autos, discraded tires etc. than I used to see back in the early 90s.
Part of the problem down at the Bay Ridge end of the line had a lot to do with the easy accesibility of the cut to illegal dumpers.
61st Street between 8th and 14th Avenues was a good example back then. The south (railroad) side of the block had a low wall about 4-5 feet in height along with the unsecured stairways (for Buckeye Pipeline repair crews) it was easy for slobs to toss crap into the cut and forget about it. It wasn't until a few years ago after years worth of complaints from the neighborhood that chain-link fencing was installed and reapirs were done by the City DOT to the adjopning sidewalk.
However NY&A's battle is still far from over, IMHO. Last week, I was walking up 61st Street near 13th Avenue, and I've noticed that the illegal dumpers have taken to leaving the mess on the sidwalk alongside the fence which is making a nice breeding ground for rats.
Until the city starts to clean up this stretch, the railroad will have to contend with a pretty serious vermin problem during the warmer months.
From a moving train vermin isn't really a problem. Debris is. I used to have to ride on the front of the engine to be sure that there were actually rails there. If not that then to be sure the debris wasn't bad enough to derail us.
Once, there was an actual boulder! How or why it was there, I don't know.
Yeah, all sorts of weird crap end up on that ROW!
well, also there is construction on the 11th avenue bridge, and there have been construction crews down there alot. I have also seen crews working on the tracks a few times. (my station is ft hamiliton pkwy)
The bridges are done by city funded highway crews. The track is done by a contractor for NY&A who hires only Mexican imigrants at something less than minimum wage. He provides them with hand tools and sends them off in a hi-rail truck to go and bust their asses all day. Real fun trying to ask them for something: "Yo no entiendo Ingles"
Can you say Migra to them? They will understand
Many of you New Yorkers seem to be in the know about the status of the Manhattan Bridge fiasco and the 63rd Street Tunnel, and the like. Is any new subway construction currently underway to improve the system? And if so, where? I have also noticed that from 1974, when I made the first trip to New York in 20 years, to this summer 25 years later, I was amazed at how so many subway routes had been changed. Is there any such changes on the horizon? These are two questions that always fascinate me for it shows that despite the age of the system, it seems to be constantly changing. What I don't know is that these changes are for the good. Hello out there! Someone fill me in. I'm out here in California, but my interest in the NYC Subway has never ceased or slackened.
There has been a lot of threads about this very subject here, try looking for them by keyword, e.g. JFK Air Train, 63rd Street (LIRR), Queensboro Plaza/Court Street, 207th Street (yard) ... also see the thread I started this AM "Mass Transit ... Newsday"
Mr t__:^)
The only new construction being discussed seriously right now is the proposed 2nd Ave spur off the Broadway BMT at 63rd. St. and a proposed extension of the 7 line to the Javits convention center. Neither are anywhere near ready for construction to even start, let alone be ready for passanger use.
There is also discussion of extending the Astoria line for a one seat connection to La Guardia Airport. I predict Peter Vallone will make a mayorial campain issue of killing that one. He did vote in favor of the Van Wyke El so if my prediction comes forwad, he will have to explain why he can be a NIMBY for Astoria but not for Jamaica.
Mark: Isn't Vallone the same bozo who got his clock cleaned by Pataki in last November's New York gubernatorial election?
Yup, he's a bozo, but no more than most. I'm not sure if I'd have voted for him anyway, but any public opposition to the N to LGA would put an end to any respect I have for him. On the other hand, if he is simply seeking compensation and a buyout for those living adjacent to the extended El, that's fair.
Overall, if you want public works, vote for Hevesi. A friend predicts, however, that since Hevesi and Vallone are both from Queens they'll cancel each other out, electing Mark Green (who wanted to be Senator, not Mayor).
[Overall, if you want public works, vote for Hevesi. A friend predicts, however, that since Hevesi and Vallone are both from Queens they'll cancel each other out, electing Mark Green (who wanted
to be Senator, not Mayor).]
As Green is the prototypical Upper West Side Limousine Liberal, don't expect him to be a supporter of the subway - he's unlikely to know what the subway *is*!
(Don't expect Green to support the subway).
Green was the one guy who showed up at the MTA's Second Avenue hearing, and he has hired some ex-straphangers on his staff. So I'm sure he will be in favor of a better infrastructure, and improved education. The problem is, when people like him are few giving his core constituents in the health and social services in industries "the minimum" they need, ie. three times what they get elsewhere, there is no money for anything else. That's why "liberals" have continually underfunded these services, all the while decrying the underfunding.
Hevesi can add. As Comptroller, he understands where the money comes from and where it is going, and how it effects the economy and vice versa.
Actually, I believe that Green is an Upper East Sider, living east of York Ave in the hi 80's. (Perhaps he likes to look at Gracie Mansion -- If we're lucky he'll never get to live there) At least I used to see him over there frequently when I lived there. That's not to say, of course, that he isn't the classic Limousine Liberal.
I have a tough enough time living on the UWS -- don't send Mark Green over here too!
Chuck
The only thing being built for the NY Subway is the 63 Street Connection (in Queens, not on 63 Street). This will extend the 63 Street tunnel at 21 St-Queensbridge station to the Queens Boulevard line east (north) of Queens Plaza. When completed in 2001, all Queens Boulevard trains will run into Manhattan. The G will become a shuttle from Smith-9 to Court Square at all times.
This is Lefferts Boulevard-Richmond Hill, change for the J train
The next stop on this W train will be Kew Gardens Road.
Fred, what is going on with the LACMTA Red Line, how far out is it, and have they started the Blue Line into Pasadena, and Metrolink into Pasadena yet?
See the (Los Angeles) MTA's website for construction updates:
http://www.mta.net/metro/construction/construction.htm
(Summary: Work on Blue Line to Pasadena suspended until the MTA reorganizes its finances. Red Line North Hollywood extension (N. Hollywood, Universal City, Hollywood/Highland) to open mid-2000; extension to East LA suspended until MTA reorganizes its finances.)
Which means don't hold your breath too long.
Fred are thei running Metrolink on the old Santa Fe Pasadena Line and East-Bob
Brighton Beach Bob: It may sound stupid but I don't know. Except for the Blue Line which I like, I really have very little interest inthe LA subway system. When it comes to subways, I'm still a New Yorker.
Brighton Beach Bob: The Red Line will get into North Hollywood at Highland sometime next year-----MTA says. The BlueLine to Pasadena has been suspended for the time being due to funds. I think the Manhattan Bridge fiasco will get solved before the Blue Line is finished. The extension spur to East LA has been sidetracked. I'm not within 10 miles of any of these potential or real lines.
Where is it going thru the Mountains from Hollywood to the Valley.Remember I spent more time in the Valley then I did on Kings Highway
Probably the most amazing thing is how little new subway construction there has been in New York compared to other cities. Living in Chicago for the past 30+ years, the differences are quite obvious:
New in New York since 1969:
@ 63 St. tunnel to Queensbridge
@ Archer Ave. subway
New in Chicago since 1969:
@ New line along Dan Ryan Expressway to 95th St (1969)
@ Extension of northwest line from Logan Square to Jefferson Park (1970) and O'Hare Airport (1982)
@ New Orange Line to Midway Airport (1993)
While New York has a much larger and more extensive system, there really hasn't been any major construction projects (entirely new lines) since before WWII (except maybe the extension to Rockaway, but that line was mostly an existing line built by the LIRR).
-- Ed Sachs
(New subway lines in Chicago vs. New York, Chicago with more)
1996 Medicaid spending per recipient:
New York City: $6,811
Illinois: $3,690
It's a simple choice, my friends. Just tell me the poor are healthier in New York than Chicago! It's just that here those in the health and social services industries get more money and do less work.
To hell with Local 1199 and the Greater New York Hospitals Association, the enemies of us all!
And remember that Washington D.C. built its entire subway system within those same 30 years, with funding and cooperation from three different jurisdictions! It took the NYC TA that long just to open the piddling 63rd St. Tunnel.
Maybe so, but does the Washington DC Subway System have the fanatical supporters and enthusiasts that we have? No way! And there is something about our subway system that makes it so different from others, maybe the variety of different trains and different routes. I have always been amazed that the scenery you see on many of the trains is so different from one another. That plus the fact that there seems to be a good average of elevated stops with underground stations. I am no fan of the LA system we just got started not too many years ago, and Chicago and Philly has decent ones, but to compare them to New York? That is ridiculous.
Well, of course DC Metro has no character, and except for the Potomac River no scenery to speak of. The only interesting speedy sections underground are the Red Line between Dupont and Woodley, and the Green Line east of Fort Totten.
But, as I said, WMATA completed an entire 5-line system in less than 30 years. Most of the NYC subway was built between 1900 and 1940. Does anyone think that under today's conditions, and even with new technology, the initial IRT line could be built in four years, as it was then? By the time the Second Ave. line is finished (if it ever is) I'll be too darned old to enjoy it!
DC had the advantage of having much of its fuding coming directly from the federal government, through the District of Columbia's authorization funds. If the people in Congress want the subway completely finished because it helps them or their staffs -- presto! -- they appropriate the money to make it happen.
Funding for any NYC subway expansion would have to go through more levels of government to become a reality.
A-Men to that. Orange line to Vienna next stop Govt Centre
Slight quibble: The DC Metro is not finished, and won't be until the extension to Branch Avenue in PG County on the Green Line is opened -- it's currently scheduled for 2001.
This is L'Enfant Plaza, change here for the Green and Yellow lines. Next station on this Blue Line train, Judiciary Square.
(Sorry, couldn't resist....)
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
Like the subject states, what's new with the 63rd Street connection? Is there any new stuff on the switches, the track, or just about anything will do.
Well I was flagging there this weekend and there was a lot of activity. On one track, the switch was finally installed. The track has been laid almost all the way through to 21st Street. No concete has been poured down there yet. Signals remain to be done, and that will take the better part of a year. Tunnel lighting is under way and the crash wall on five track is almost done.
The worker who fell while chipping out the original wall in August, he passed away a week ago I'm sad to say.
Does anybody happen to have an updated SIR track map? I've tried the one on the site from 1949. Is there anything diffrent to it from the one on the site?
Well for one thing, the North Shore and South Beach branches are gone!!!
This is Kew Gardens Road
The next stop on this W train will be Sutphin Boulevard, change there for the R.
There's one in Peter Dougherty's track map book, and you MAY find it on this site somewhere. In any case, I'm in the process of noting the recent changes, such as the new electrified spur at Great Kills.
-Hank
We all know that the consist of the first six cars of the ill-fated #4-2333 were as follows: (Assuming #1435 was Car Five of that consist)
S1440-1439-1437-1436-1435-1434-x7-x8-x9-x10N
Does anyone know which x occupied #1438? (Assuming that the #4 was a 10-car train at the time)
Nick
Well today SEPTA broke ground for the new FRANKFORD TRANSPORTATION CENTER. Frankford terminal is a very busy hub for the SEPTA system. Many bus lines and of course the Frankford EL terminate there. The new center will feature an indoor parking facility. From what I hear it will not affect EL or bus service during construction. Have to wait and see on that one how they will handle that situation.
Of course. They decide to do this right in the middle of planning for the Roosevelt Boulevard Investment study. If that goes well, Frankfrod ridership should be much less.
The project is bound to affect both el and bus service since it rebuilds the entire terminal. The first major undertaking will be the lopping off of the front portion of Frankford Depot, which will probably chase some buses to storage/service at nearby Comly. Then, the whole terminal gets reconfigured (I can't do it justice here - the picture is truly worth 1000 words). The main part of the work is the relocation of the el structure onto the terminal property, the reason the Depot must be affected (the el will come in straight from Frankford Ave instead of curving to follow the Ave as it currently does near Dyre St and continue "cross country" for a short stretch). For the first time in nearly 80 years the segment of Frankford Ave north of Pratt St will be daylighted.
The new parking facility will be a garage on the site of the current park and ride lot along Bustleton Ave next to the el yards. Early proposals were for a 1200-car garage but I think that's been scaled back. Frankford Depot will also expand to the south, taking the area now used for bus layovers (and part of the frontage along Pratt St formerly occupied by private businesses), to make up for the portion lost to the el relocation. I suppose the routes 14 and 20 runs which used to end within the Depot (with patrons having to walk thru the Depot to get to the el or other routes - a big event for bus fans!) will no longer do so.
Obviously there will be considerable disruption and relocation of stops during the different phases of the work on the surface, and this is bound to be difficult given the busy nature of the terminal area. The el itself won't be affected for the most part, but, due to the complexity of the connection from old to new structure, during the switchover will be a hectic time. Service will have to end in some fashion at Erie-Torresdale, the next crossover downstream, with bus shuttles between E-T and the terminal. The easiest way to do this would be to extend the buses which come into the terminal from the north and west to E-T but there isn't a whole lot of room on the street to handle all these buses. Also, with route 66 being a trackless, there is no way to extend it without temporarily bus conversion (and 66 is a HEAVY route).
Bob thanks a lot for the info on the soon to be Frankford Transportation Center.
That goes ditto for me,also. You really are an authority on SEPTA.
Chuck Greene
SEPTA has already taken to calling it the FTC on it's newer maps.
I for one will miss the old, dingy Bridge and Pratt(we all know it'll still be Bridge and Pratt, just like only natives or railfans call it the "Sea Beach Line").
It would be smart to have pit track(with bump post) sort of like 69th Street has to hold trains without having them blocking passing tracks and trains.
Indoor waiting facilities for bus/trackless trolley riders would be nice and time signals("The next Route 66 will depart in 10 minutes").
And to top it off, some new trackless trolleys(does anyone even make them anymore?)
I'm sure service will be affected. Trains may have to turn back at the next switch station(I'm not sure what it is). Is the new facility going to be where the bus/TT depot stands now? And will the El still terminate over Frankford Ave or will it turn over the depot?
See my previous post on this thread for more info on the new Frankford Terminal. It's too long to repeat.
There WILL be indoor waiting areas for buses. The buses will load at a long island-type area beneath the el structure, which will be relocated onto the terminal area. The island will have space for retail also, if this comes about, in the form of newsstands, coffee shops, etc (of course, eating and drinking are NOT permitted on SEPTA vehicles, as we all know...).
It will take some time to get used to not having Bridge-Pratt. I always found it interesting how many Phila folks called this "Bridge & Pratt" as if it were an intersection of streets (they never meet, since they are parallel). I used to chuckle at TV reporters who would talk about being at "the Bridge and Pratt crossroads" or "the famous intersection of Bridge and Pratt" when doing reports from there - most were probably from out of town and didn't realize where they were (the same could be said for the one who once did a live story from 69th St Terminal in the Upper Darby section of West Phila!).
I fondly recall that, if you caught a northbound route 3 or 5 bus going to the terminal (and both still go there), the headsign read "FKD-BRIDGE". On 5 runs based out of Southern Depot, once new look buses came along, the sign read "FKD-PRATT". Later, the sign was a compromise "FKD-BRIDGE-PRATT". For the many other routes coming from the other directions, which fed into the El at the terminal, the signs usually read "BRIDGE-PRATT EL STATION", although these later also changed to "FKD-BRIDGE-PRATT".
Do you remember the soft pretzel stand in the building at the north end of the terminal (where the 66 loads and unloads)? I can still smell the fresh pretzels being baked there. The warning bell still goes off when the 66's tracklesses come around the sharp bend entering the terminal. I guess both will be fond memories soon. Even though I usually came into the terminal from the south end when I came through there, I preferred the pretzels at the north end to the ones from the pretzel man at the Pratt St stairway. Go figure!
We could probably use some new tracklesses too, since, believe it or not, the AMG's will turn 20 this year.
10/28/99
That's a good question Bob. Will the AMG trackless coaches be replaced? With new trackless coaches or diesel or CNG buses? BTW, who would make trackless coaches these days?
Bill Newkirk
On another board I heard that Dayton, Ohio, had recently acquired new trolleybuses -- from Skoda, IIRC. Sounds like they're going to sell the old ones, but they're older than 20 years, I think.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
Is it a 'when' or an 'if' question? SEPTA bought 110 AMG's 20 years ago. Only 66 are in active service, with the other 44 in dead storage in a couple of places around the system. Possible expansion of the system has not materialized. On the 5 remaining lines, one can find buses being operated on weekends on certain runs, as operator preference has reduced the lines to unpredictable situations as to whether a bus or trackless will be coming along next.
SEPTA hasn't commented publicly on it but the TT operation is a problem. The 5 lines are grouped at two depots which are miles apart with no wire connection between them. Any transfer of vehicles between the two operating depots or to the shops involves an expensive and cumbersome towing operation. Since the TT's are part of the Light Rail Operations group, overhead crews and line trucks based at Elmwood service them. If you know Phila's layout, you know Elmwood is in the southwest part of the city, not too far from Southern (with two TT routes - 29 and 79 - and fairly straightforward overhead), but very far from Frankford (with 3 routes - 59, 66 and 75 - very complex overhead (4 sets of wires on Frankford Ave for 66 express service, wire beneath the Frankford El, odd-angle crossings, crossings of major streets where high trucks snag wire on frequent occasions)). It would not come as a shock if SEPTA, being SEPTA, were to propose the bus conversion of the 5 lines when the AMG's wear out.
When the trolley abandonments of the 80's were happening, much talk focused on possible expansion of the TT system. TT's were to take over 6 and 60, with 53 being combined with 75. 66 was to have an extension along Knights Road to what is now Franklin Mills. 5 would have been converted, and in the process would finally provide a link between Frankford and Southern. Despite these being good ideas, nothing happened. The extra AMG's bought for anticipated extensions were found to be unneeded.
There are new TT's in other places - Dayton bought some from Skoda of the Czech Republic and San Francisco is looking for some new ones. Boston is apparently also in the market. If SEPTA were to do anything, I would guess that the Southern operation would be shut down and the 3 Frankford lines would be retained. This would permit purchase of about 50 TT's to handle the 3 lines, assuming no expansion beyond the current lines' terminals. (I wouldn't bet the rent money on 75 staying as TT if push came to shove either.) It will be interesting to see what happens with the US's longest running TT operating city.
And of course, if SEPTA were to build a Roosevelt Boulevard busway then they would probably need more TTs.
Just another note: about the northeast trolleys, during Frankford el reconstruction, SEPTA tried to replace the TTs with buses, but the residents complained because of added noise and fumes so SEPTA switched back.
Actually, during several phases of the El project, the TT's were off for extended periods on 59 and 75 since the pull-in/pull-out non-revenue wire beneath the El on Frankford Ave was unusable. SEPTA tried to solve this by a proposal to run a single set of wires along Bridge St from the Depot to Oxford Ave (59's route), which would provide a second access/egress to be used during disruptions due to the El work. The local residents fought it and won.
As far as the Boulevard goes, let's see what happens with this. Personally, I think rapid transit is the only way to go. Anything else does not permit a one-seat ride to Center City and will not help the current situation, especially when you consider that this would involve a 3-seat ride for most users (crosstown to Blvd, Blvd line, and then either El or Broad St Subway). I don't imagine too many NE residents will be thrilled with a transfer to the Subway at Hunting Park station either.
The bigger problem, as I see it, is anything in the median of the Blvd on the surface. You already must contend with the very unusual operation (12 lanes plus), separated into 4 roadways across 300 feet or so of land, with expressway-type traffic volumes, speeds, and operating characteristics. At the busiest cross streets, where presumably the major transfers will occur, there is also considerable cross and turning traffic. The Blvd already has a very high pedestrian accident rate. Forcing people to cross 6 lanes to transfer from one transit vehicle to another will only increase the number of pedestrian accidents. The only good solution here is some sort of grade separation of both the transit service and the express lanes of the roadway, perhaps depressing them both between the local lanes.
[As far as the Boulevard goes, let's see what happens with this.
Personally, I think rapid transit is the only way to go. Anything else
does not permit a one-seat ride to Center City and will not help the
current situation, especially when you consider that this would involve
a 3-seat ride for most users (crosstown to Blvd, Blvd line, and then
either El or Broad St Subway). I don't imagine too many NE residents
will be thrilled with a transfer to the Subway at Hunting Park station
either.]
Would it be any different if NE residents rode BSS style cars on the Roosevelt Boulevard line along the BSS to Hunting Park, do you think?
Has anyone thought of using the present flying junctions at Erie instead of building a new interlocking at Hunting Park?
And what I really do not understand is why there is no proposal to extend anything into either Franklin Mills or Neshaminy Malls. Malls are some of the greatest employment centers around, and places that are in dire need of transit. IMHO, the greatest thing that could make suburban transit better is direct, and i mean direct rail service to malls.
I think a direct connection to either the Broad St Subway at Hunting Park (with no transfer, using the junction you noted) or to the El would be preferable. Any change of vehicle means loss of a seat, if you have one, and the Broad St trains are fairly popular these days. Also, I think, for most NE residents, the thought of being out in public in some form in the area around Hunting Park station would keep them off that line. This is why I favor rapid transit - you're already talking a two-seat ride for most users, for reasons noted in my last post. Adding a third seat (and it probably won't be a seat) will make this even less attractive.
Any extension to either Franklin Mills or Neshaminy would be a good idea but malls tend to be NIMBY's about transit. Franklin Mills would not support a route 66 extension and, like most malls, puts the transit stop for routes 20, 67 and 84, which currently call here, at a not so convenient place. The same can be said for King of Prussia (almost impossible to find from inside the mall until you get to the exit door for the bus stop area, where it is inadequately marked) and Plymouth Meeting (the rehab of the mall put the bus stop way out in the parking lot, again unmarked in the mall). This is odd considering that K of P has at least 7 routes calling there and PM has at least 5.
I was at the Transit Museum recently,looking inside of a Low V IRT car it said, the Low V's were retired in 1964.I remember when i was a teenager,my father was a signal towerman on the old third avenue el Bronx Park spur.They had a mixed fleet of 1939 world's fair controller cars and trailer Low V cars.He told me the Low V's some over fifty at this point, were retired around November 1968.I'm just curious i remember Low V trains very well as a early teen,could the Transit Museum be wrong?
Yes they can be wrong because I definitely remember riding on low-V's on the Bronx 3rd Av El in the LATE 60's.
Could they have been 1938 World Fa1r Cars not the Lo Volts
Yes, they WERE Worlds Fair cars, and yes, they were ALSO Steinway Lo-V's; they just had different bodies, which slightly resembled the BMT MS with the ogee roof and end signs. I think they ran until about 1969 or maybe early 1970. The SMEE R-12s replaced them.
Wayne
Some of the museum Lo-v's also ran in revenue service (mixed with other cars) on the El until 1969. BTW, the first time I saw R-12's and no Lo-V's on the El was Feb. 1970. If the Lo-V's were replaced in 1970, it had to be in January. The last time I saw them on the El was sometime in 1969.
The last run of the Lo-V's in mainline service was on February 21,1964 on the #3 7 Av-Lenox Express.
There was a special last run for the press and public on April 14,1964 which carried passengers from Times Square to South Ferry and north to Grand Central.
Lo-V's continued to run on the Bowling Green Shuttle until August 6,1964.
After that the only old cars in operation on the IRT were Steinway Motors,World's Fair-Steinway Motors and Lo-V trailers on the Third Avenue EL.
However during 1968 the five museum Lo-V motors; 5286,5290,5443,5466 and 5483 were place in service on the el due to car shortages and were intermixed with the other types. All four types; Lo-VM,Lo-VT,StM and WF-StM were still operating in October 1969. The very last train of pre-war IRT equiptment ran during the am rush on November 3,1969 and consisted of StM 5641, WF 5670,Lo-VT 5653, StM 5636 and WF 5676.
We might add that for the 90th Anniversary of the First Subway the four remaining Lo-VM's;5290,5292,5443 and 5483 ran in regular revenue service on Rt S 42 Street Shuttle during the am and pm rush.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember seeing a poster at the Times Square end of the shuttle touting the fact that 1917-vintage cars would be running on the shuttle on Oct. 27, 1994. I was in the city a week earlier, and was kicking myself knowing I would miss the event.
The Lo-V's were retired from mainline IRT service in 1964. They did however continue to run mixed with 1938 Worlds Fair cars on the 3rd Avenue El in the Bronx until 1969.
On October 24, 1999, I rode the #7 line from Grand Central to Times Square. I noticed that the Grand Central Station had high semicircular ceilings, and that it was deep. I wonder how deep the station is, since Grand Central is a very complex station. I also noticed that it was not renovated.
GCT for the Flushing Line is about 90 feet underground.
Grand Central station was built in 1907 for a trolley company, NY & Queens County Railway. They operated a free trolley (specially bought for this line) under the East River for two months. 1913 the City bought the line, extended it & made it a IRT subway line.
BTW, that company exists today as Queens Surface Corp (private bus company)
Mr t__:^)
http://www.yourcta.com/news/ctaandpress.wu?action=displayarticledetail&articleid=112585
Chicago ridership continues to go up also. The address above is for the CTA news release.
That's good news, although when I read through the APTA stats, I was surprised at how much higher NYCTA ridership is relative to CTA in heavy rail -- less than one-tenth in a city and metro area half NYC's size. Given what seems to be happening in NY, though, anything is possible.
The CTA always posts that they have higher ridership, but it's never THAT much higher. No doubt one of the reasons is the incerdibly high-priced monthly pass (although they have brought the price down a little bit), and the fact that you can't buy the passes at the rail stations; you have to go to a grocery store or currency exchange. The Metrocard system is much more advanced, in my opinion. Of course, the main reason for the Transit Card system in Chicago was so that station agents wouldn't have to handle money, since many were stealing a lot of it (or so the CTA says). Therefore, there's at least one vending machine at every rail station, and you have no other option than to use it (unless you want to pay in lots of quarters).
Another major CTA problem is the amount of slow zones. Many portions of CTA track are slow zoned at 15 MPH. Including the entire Douglas branch currently. CTA claims that these slow zones are because of faulty structure, but I'm not sure that it's the huge problem that they think it is. The CTA has over 22 miles of slow zoned track
The main problem is that the CTA will never gets the funds it wants to repair the slow-zoned lines unless it makes the plans much more reasonable. Almost every project (including the Douglas branch) includes replacing every station along the line or branch. The stations take up the majority of the cost.
How many "red tag" zones are there in New York currently? I bet not nearly as many as in Chicago, and I doubt that you have entire branches with red tags.
-Jacob
[I was surprised at how much higher NYCTA ridership is relative to CTA in heavy rail -- less than one-tenth in a city and metro area half NYC's size]
Chicago doesn't have anywhere near the same proportion of car-less residents as does NYC. I'm sure that there are many neighborhoods with low car ownership rates, but NYC is still a special case.
"That's good news, although when I read through the APTA stats, I was surprised at how much higher NYCTA ridership is relative to CTA in heavy rail -- less than one-tenth in a city and metro area half NYC's size."
To complicate the matter further, while CTA rapid transit has about a tenth of the ridership of the NYC Subway, Metra is about half the size of New York's commuter rail (LIRR and Metro-North combined). Almost 300,000 ride the Metra system on the average weekday. Metra ridership is up too, by the way, and somewhat faster than the CTA increase, IIRC.
However, that fits with the response that someone else gave that the percentage of carless households probably has to do with it: the larger percentage of people without cars in NYC increases subway ridership (of course, that's probably the other way around: the high ridership, and thus level of service, results in fewer people buying cars), while use of commuter rail isn't affected by the relative proportion of car ownership since commuter rail passengers in both cities tend to live in the suburbs and own cars.
The CTA rappid transit rail network is not as extensive as the MTA system so buses must do much more of the work and also the METRA system is very active in areas that in NYC would be subway trips, rather than commuter rail trips.
Metro Pass and presold fare systems are very good for transit.
On October 24, 1999, I rode the #6, and then the #4 line from 96 street to Grand Central. I was forced to take an uptown 6 to 125 street and transfer to the 4 line. The downtown 6 line, for some reason did not stop at 96 street. Renovations? It seems unreal, since it was a Sunday, and many people are off.
Must have been a general order. The MTA www site says nothing. Renovations are happening at 110th. No trains stop there at any time. All I can say it is annoying when there are GOs because your trip can become so long.
I saw some time ago that there is going to be a massive renovation project at the Times Square station when is it going to begin? I also noticed a spare track just south of the Times Square station is this track in use, and for what purpose?
Can't comment on the spare track, but the renovation is underway as we speak. Last time I was there, I noticed a significant amount of construction throughout the station, including a large area up on the street level that had been barricaded off.
The architecture firm in charge of the renovation is KPF, a New York-based firm with a strong portfolio of high-quality designs. I remember there being some mention of the Times Square project on their website at www.kpf.com. I'll be anxious to see what the project looks like when complete.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Just after posting my previous message, I found the specific page on the KPF website for the project. It includes a small graphic of an architectural model and a brief project description. Looks to be an interesting project, although I certainly don't envy the poor architects who got stuck doing Construction Administration for such a complex project. CA is tedious enough for even the most simple projects.
Here's the URL:
http://www.kpf.com/project22.html
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
The 'spare track' is a layup track. It's used for short turns and GOs when they turn trains at either 34st or 42st, the track has a 'Y' switch between the express tracks, and connects at both the 34st and 42st end.
-Hank
Someone told me there was a big train wreck at Times Square in the late 1920's couldnt find any info on this can someone help me
According to Stan Fischler's book "The Subway" it was on 8/24/28 when a downtown IRT train left Times Square and a switch was thrown as the 9th car was over it. Although Fischer doesn't give an exact amount numerous people were killed. They never did find out how the switch was thrown or who did it.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
my color quiz- TRY IT!!!
I believe the death toll was 16. The trailer that split the switch had its front end lopped off by the curtain wall then the remaining part split the pillars. The last car (motor) toppled into the wreckage and was also demolished as it derailed. I believe these were regular Lo-V's involved. I'm STILL trying to find someone who knows what unit numbers were involved.
Does anyone remember a rear-end work train crash on the Broadway El at West 230th Street sometime in the 50's? I have the clipping somewhere, one Lo-V was a turned into a flat car for a distance of 25 feet; the other one was relatively unscathed. Seems that the Lo-V's were rather fragile creatures...
Wayne
Yes, I do remember a little bit about the wreck. It happenen in Sept.,1957 according to one of three books about The Bronx. There is also a picture of it. I lived in the neighborhood. It happenened just south of the western part of W.230th Street. I was very young at the time and was not allowed over there alone. I beleive the story is that one train was in the middle track parked. Along came the next train to park, north of it. As the train came close, the motorman had a heart attack. By time the train when into emergency, it was to late. Bad timing to get sick. I remember all the fire engines, and the crane to put the trains back on the track.
Thanks for getting the date on that one.
Another cardiac incident occurred on June 4, 1987 on the IND Queens line in Jamaica. A motorman had a heart attack at the controls of his R46 "F" train after he left the 179th Street station and entered the dead-end turnaround track. He slumped over the controls and his train went pell-mell into the bumper blocks and the tunnel end, and the front of driving motor #1054 was stove in ten feet. Blind motor #941 following tried to mount the first car but buckled in the center and at the forward end. Both cars bit the dust as a result of the crash.
The motorman had already expired.
Wayne
Any particular reason those car numbers were out of sequence?
subfan
Yes. In the days before the General Overhaul of the R46 fleet, the cars, as originally numbered, were mated up randomly. Once they were sent out for their GOH, they came back with new numbers, and engineering, I believe, ordained that they should be numbered consecutively A-B-D-C, where A is Even and divisible only by 2, B = A + 1, D = A + 3 and C = A + 2 and IS divisible by 4. There is a table of the old vs. new R46 numbers in the Illustrated Car Roster. The same principle of renumeration was also applied to the R44 fleet after its overhaul.
The R68 fleet is being re-ordered A-B-D-C where A is divisible by 4 and the R68A fleet has already been re-ordered B-A-C-D where A is one less than B, which is even and divisible only by 2 (i.e. 5002, 5001, 5003, 5004)
Wayne
Wouldn't it be difficult to constantly change which car was mated to what when dealing with drawbar-linked cars like the R-46? Or were they linked with couplers in those pre-GOH days?
subfan
Good point! I'm not sure if they actually had drawbars back before the GOH. I do remember seeing cars changing bunches, especially with the R44s. Someone has more technical information on this, I am sure. The R46 numbering was certainly random; and the renumeration was even more random.
Wayne
Wayne, not to be picky but it was an E train and not an F. In those days the E relayed on the lower level while the F relayed upstairs. Interestingly enough, the 6 remaining cars left under their own power after we established a good P-wire loop.
according to one book i own the switch was thrown as the train was on the circuit, certain tales which have been told is that the switch while occupied will not move while the circuit is occupied (either by train or track circuit) everyone knows a switch lever should never be thrown while a train is over the switch but this is never the case since it is also a time saver since sometimes things never operate as designed. TA will never admit to a mechanical failure but will always go for HUMAN ERROR to lessen its liability. Funny how in 1997 in a few days of each other there were two train derailments in which the last car of the train one truck goes to way track while the other is diverted to another? coincidence i think not.....
Let me add to this the evening of July 3,1997 the derailment of a southbound A train entering 135th street. Prior to the derailment I was operating a northbound D train through the area of 135th street north of the station around 90 minutes before. There were maintenance people inspecting the switches, another tale was alledged the switches in the area of the derailment were known to move on their own.. whether it is speculation or folklore we probably would never know since TA was fast to demote or terminate a maintenance person for throwing a wrong lever in the area leading to the derailment of that A train.
south of Time Square 2 track into the spur.
Does anyone have a Current roster of the subway cars, showing which lines they are usually assigned to, and to what yard they belong to. If so could they post it if possible?
Doesn't this site have such rosters?
This is Boul Bellevard
The next stop on this W train will be Springfield Boulevard
I never saw one, if it does can anyone let me know where
Start with the Illustrated Subway Car Rosters page on this site and follow the links from there. Seek and ye shall find.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, we do not have a breakdown of which car numbers are assigned to which yards. I haven't actually seen one of those anywhere, myself. We do have a list of how many of each car type is assigned to each line but it's not current (it's in the Subway FAQ).
-Dave
I could be wrong on this but I think the Joe Korman site has each line and what type and the amount of cars needed for service for each line.I believe it is has recent as of May. You can access his site right from here.
Belle Blvd doth not intersect with the Hillside-Avenue; your station is misplaced and should be 212th Street-Hollis Court Bvld.
Wayne
(next stop after Springfield is Winchester Blvd-Creedmoor)
I turned away onto Onion Turnpike on 188th.
This is Shelbyville Boulevard
The next stop on this W train might be Winchester Boulevard-Creedmoor
10/27/99
Eugenius,
Eugenius D.Train IS A FUNNY GUY! HO! HO!....You mean HA! HA!.
HO! HO! relates to Santa Claus. And everybody knows there ain't no Santa Claus!!
Bill Newkurk
[This is the 42nd St.-Grand Central Shuttle running express to Grand Central..step in and stand clear of the closing doors....Ding..Dong!]
No, I mean Ho ho. Big accent on the first ho.
This is 163 Street
The next and last stop on this W train will be Lakeville Road.
What's her native language?
Dredging up things from the past, I see.
Peace,
ANDEE
The next and last stop on this W train will be Lakeville Road.
Well, I guess you were just a tad bit off regardign the W train :)
--Mark
Yes, this was before 7/22/01, WELL before.
Hi,
Here in Chicago, we have several stations that are closed on nights and or weekends, even when the line still operates. Are there stations in New York that are closed on nights or weekends, because of low ridership, or whatever?
Broad Street on the J/M/Z is closed on weekends. From what I understand, keeping it open would require staffing a tower as well as the station itself. 146th and 148th streets on the 3 line are closed during the late-night hours. As far as I know, every other station has 24/7 service.
145 and 148St
3TM
Claremont Pkwy. Transfer to the Bx11 and Bx17. The next station will be 169St. Transfer to the Bx35. Stand Clear.........
There are 2 stations on the #3 line which are closed overnight (145th and 148th). There is a bus route which covers these stations.
Also Fulton St. and Broad St. on the J are closed on weekends. Here, parallel subway service is available on the #'s 4 and 5.
Finally, the Times Square Shuttle does not operate overnight, but the two stations are served by many other lines, including the parallel #7.
I think that's all of them. I don't believe there are any cases in which a line continues to operate through a closed station (the current exception being 181st St. on the 1 which is closed for renovations -- which seem like they're going to be rather nice, but late).
Don't forget Aquaduct's stop on the A on the Rockaway line. It is only OPEN when there are races.
A clarification on Aqueduct: The part-time station is Aqueduct Racktrack. There is another station called Aqueduct/ North Conduit Avenue which IS open 24/7
Simple answer is no with 2 exceptions. Number one is the J on evenings and weekends doesn't serve Fulton or Broad. It terminates at Chambers during those times. Alternative routes are the 4, 5, N, and R. Second is when there is a general order in effect. In this case, trains may bypass stations due to trackwork. When this happens, there is either a shuttle bus or you take a train in the opposite direction to a station where the direction you want to go in is serviced.
Systems that have the stations closed nights/weekends kind of thing are the London Underground, and Arlington Cemetary Station on the DC Metro.
Also, Chicago has 3 stations that are closed nights and weekends, and 2 stations that are closed Sundays. There used to be a lot more stations that were closed nights/weekends here, but the CTA has changed many of them back to 24/7.
-Jake
The Lindenwold Line (PATCO) also has one station that is closed on weekends - serves Camden's City Hall, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, with the latest service cutbacks at the CTA, only the Blue and Red lines provide 24 hour service. So there are lots of stations which are closed during the wee hours of the morning.
-- Ed Sachs
Yes, that's true, but even though the Red and Blue lines run 24 hours, there are 3 stations that are closed nights/weekends on those lines. There are also 3 stations on the loop elevated closed Sundays.
-Jake
Of course the Arlington Cemetery Station is closed at nights! The entire D.C. system is!
This is Bottle Neck Driveway
The next stop on this W train will be 263 Street.
But Arlington Cemetery closes earlier than the rest of the system, at least in the wintertime. ISTR that it closes at about 8 or 9 p.m. during the dark part of the year.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
10/25/99
Anybody know if the street crossings for the Newark City Subway will have crossing gates or traffic signals to stop traffic. I mentioned crossingS because aside of Orange Street,there are two or three street crossings past Franklin Avenue enroute to the new shop facilities.
BTW - GRACE PERIOD FOR NO FARE TICKET ENDS SUNDAY OCTOBER 31 , STARTING NOVEMBER 1 , BOARD WITHOUT A TICKET AND GET CAUGHT,YOU'LL GET BANGED FOR $100.00. AS TOLD BY NJT FARE INSPECTORS.
Bill Newkirk
The CTA customer service folks are right on the ball! In preparation for a trip I'll be making in mid-December with my younger daughter to check out law schools at, among other places, UChicago and Northwestern, I called the CTA customer service number this past Thursday morning and asked them if they could send me a map of the system to help plan our trip. Today it arrived in the mail, along with three brochures: one on fares, one on visitor passes, and one entitled "Downtown Transit Sightseeing Guide". That one in particular would be useful to the ordinary tourist, as it contains a full explanation of the visitor passes and also an excellent transit map of downtown from the lake west to Clinton and from Bellvue on the north to 14th on the south. The system map is also very good.
It will be my first time in Chicago in 20 years - and I won't admit to how many years since my wife and I were married there, up in Rogers Park! (We lived briefly at 7600 N. Greenview [corner of Howard Street] before my employer transferred me back east.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Enjoy our excellent city and Unique transit System.
Make sure if you have time you get in a ride on the newly renovated Green Line and the Purple Line Express between Howard and Belmont.
BJ
I'd like to. I rode the old Evanston Express non-stop from Howard Street to Merchandise Mart - 22 minutes vs. 43 for the local to the subway stop nearest my office - when we lived there. Loved that ride! At a minimum I hope to ride from Howard to the Loop and back on the express, but I don't know if my daughter will indulge me. We have nine days to travel over 3000 miles and tour six law schools (starting from our New Jersey home, UMinnesota in Minneapolis, Northwestern and UChicago in Chicago, UMichigan in Ann Arbor, Georgetown in Washington, DC, and UPennsylvania in Philadelphia); as it is, we may not get to the last two on this run. I'm just glad we aren't trying to do the other four she's interested in as part of the same trip! (Three of those we've already covered - UVA in Charlottesville, NYU and Columbia in NYC - and she's going to skip touring Stanford unless it moves to the top of her list.) Email me offline with your thoughts on Kenwood Park (UChicago) and the Gold Coast (Northwestern U. Law - 357 E. Chicago) - what I remember of those areas is sufficiently outdated to be useless.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
University of Chicago is located in Hyde Park, a beautiful and relatively safe neighborhood on the South Side. However, Hyde Park is a bit of an enclave, and the neighborhood can turn ugly very fast if you walk too far in any direction. Easiest access is from the Metra Electric trains -- The L isn't very convenient to Hyde Park.
U of C itself is one of the most beautiful urban campuses I've ever seen... Be sure to spend time walking around the place. Don't miss Rockefeller Chapel and the Frank Lloyd Wright-designed Robie House. If you're into Hawaiian/Polynesian food, don't miss my favorite restaurant in the city, the House of Tiki, located on 53rd Street just east of the Metra tracks.
Northwestern's Law School is located on Chicago's tony Streeterville neighborhood, surrounded by the North Michigan Avenue shopping / tourist district and Northwestern University's massive medical center complex. Neighborhood is very safe; this neighborhood's idea of a crime problem is somebody using the wrong fork at dinner. The CTA Red Line (Chicago Avenue stop) is nearby, along with a large number of bus lines. Nearby attractions include North Michigan Avenue, Water Tower Place, Navy Pier, and the John Hancock Center. The view from the top of the Hancock on a clear night is nothing short of breathtaking. However, here's a tip: Don't follow the tourists to the observatory. Go instead to the Signature Lounge on the 96th floor and you get the same view for free and a drink for about what you'd pay for admission to the observatory.
Shameless self-promotion time: For candid reviews of some of my favorite restaurants and bars in Chicago, check out the Matchbook Files page ("Side Streets" section) of my personal website, The Nth Ward. I don't pull any punches, and I include many inexpensive, locally-owned places that the tourist guides ignore.
I'll be doing my own grand tour of grad schools next summer (Masters of Architecture degree)... right now my top contenders are Columbia University, Parsons School of Design, New Jersey Institute of Technology, Illinois Institute of Technology, MIT, and UPenn. Fun and games....
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
My wife and I dined at the 95th in the Hancock building over 20 years ago - and I nearly lost my dinner as a result of the elevator's fast descent! I'll look at your website when I get home from work this evening.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's easy enough to get to Hyde Park on the "L"; just ride the Red or Green lines to Garfield, and transfer to the #55 bus. However, many people hesitate to do this, assuming that it's "unsafe". It's really not, especially in the daytime.
The South Side is not as unsafe as people percieve it to be. In fact, there are plenty of nice areas on the South Side.
If you're not afraid, be sure to visit Woodlawn, just south of Hyde Park. It's very unfortunate how the neghiborhood used to have many beuitiful buildings, most of which have been torn down or are now abandoned. A picture perfect example of urban decay.
-Jake
Unfortunately, the Evanston Express is not nearly as fast as it used to be. For one thing, it now makes all local stops south of Belmont, where as it used to go express all the way to the Merchandise Mart. It also has numerous slow zones. Not very "express" at all.
-Jake
That is indeed regrettable. I loved that ride, especially in the morning when I could often claim the railfan window. (Not a chance in the afternoon, though - I considered myself lucky to get aboard.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting to go through the Wilson Ave station on a s/b Evanston Express and slide over to the side on what was an old North Shore Station(?) Some catenary poles are still in place.
In riding by there, you may notice a wide open space to the east of the station. Some years ago the car barn which was there burned to a crisp and the whole structure was razed. Some of the lead tracks are still there, not that they would ever be used.
In riding by there, you may notice a wide open space to the east of the station. Some years ago the car barn which was there burned to a crisp and the whole structure was razed. Some of the lead tracks are still there, not that they would ever be used.
I remember when that happened... I still wish I had taken the time to head up there to see the fire. As I recall, it was one of the most spectacular fires the city had seen in some time (not withstanding our little incident with Mrs. O'Learys cow, of course), mostly due to all the chemicals, lubricants and solvents located within the facility. The tracks adjacent to the site were shut down for a few days due to damage from the fire. The site is now a parking lot for nearby Truman College.
Prior to the fire, that section of track was one of the few remaining places on the CTA system that still had mechanically-operated switches. Those with a keen eye would notice a vast network of rods and joints just below the tracks, connecting the switches to a massive array of levers located in the tower to the west of the tracks. I believe these mechanical switches were replaced with standard electrically-operated switches around the time of the fire.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Does anybody know if there are any photos of the Franklin Shuttle on the Web since it reopened? If so, what are the URL's?
Wayne has already been given the assignment to take pictures of the new Shuttle. Pictures will go up as soon as they are devloped scanned and sent to Dave.
I was riding the front of an eastbound E this evening and saw _fires_ burning directly under the two express tracks east of Van Wyck blvd platform. The E was then Diverted to 179st. Police and Firefighters were milling about on the platform, but we were permitted to pass right by....
The station had a lot of smoke in it.
The conductor announced that due to "Switch Problems Ahead" we were being diverted away from Jamaica to 179th...
Does anyone know what was going on?
Dave
You haven't heard about the TA's new switch heaters :-?
The fire probably came from the yard leads. Must be papers and all that junk that roll down from the yard. I'v never been there but I know it's a steep grade. 2 levels down
While driving over the Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday (They needed Bklyn cops to keep the peace at the KK/K rally) I wondered. Where exactly did the el trains run? I've seen a number of pictures including the great one on the rear of Bill Newkirk's calendar but they don't show exactly where they ran. There are only 3 lanes of roadway each way on 1 level so I doubt it was on the roadway. I assume it was on the pedestrian walkway as it runs sort of like the Williamsburg track area. Then where was the walkway? I doubt the el was over the roadway as els are over streets as the pictures don't bear that out. Anyone know?
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In my following description, there may be errors. The first thing to realize is the frame box around the three lanes (each way) was created only when the Brooklyn Bridge roadways were rebuilt about 1950 by Fred Zurmurhlen (spelling?). Originally, the frame enclosed only the the cable car system. Upon electrification and linkage to the Brooklyn elevated system, the el trains continued to operate inside the frame box. The roadway allowed for one lane of cars & trucks, plus one paved lane for streetcars. I think the paving may have been cobble stone. Born in 1937, I recall riding the final el train across the bridge to Bridge-Jay Street. I have vague recollections of riding the streetcars on their elevated structure (at Sands Street) and on the outer roadway. About 1944 or 1945, the Sands Street structure was demolished and the streetcars were moved inside the frame box onto the former el tracks. The city government proposed widening the car lanes from two to three by removing the trolley tracks in 1950. However, this required the construction of a box around the three lanes, that is, major work. In the process, I suspect that the clearance was lowered and trucks banned. The streetcars that looped outdoors at Park Row in 1950, were cut back to loops near the Brooklyn end. I suspect that Brooklyn Bridge now brings many fewer people between the boroughs per rush hour than it did during the days of the Brooklyn el system. Joe McMahon from Seaford, Long Island.
Thank you!!!
Is that a BAHN train running in your message? How'd you do that?
Dave, BAHN junkie
That train is running AWFULLY FAST!! :)
--Mark
If you look very carefully at the "box" sides as you cross the Brooklyn Bridge, the one on the left (the original) is not quite the same as the one on the right (which was moved when the trolleys were taken out of service).
The pedestrian walkway, I believe, always had that location on the bridge.
--Mark
Also again check out Brooklyn Elevateds thay have pix of trains on the Bridge
Mutt train seen on the downtown "C" at W4 this morning about 730. First 2 cars were an R32 pair and then 6 gleaming R38s. Didn't get the number of the 32s as I did not realize what I was seeing until too late.
There is a set if R32s that are regularly mixed with R38s on the A & C. Something about these being rebuilt as a prototype. Inside they look more like the R38 rebuilds than R32.
they've been there for years.
Ah yes, the infamous (and NON-A/C'd) R32GE's again. These ten R32s were shuffled off to Buffalo (actually, Blaisdell NY) to get their GOH's from GE-Buffalo Transit rather than from Morrison-Knudsen (MKCo) in Hornell, NY. They did a rather nice job of making them look like R38s. However, the cradles that hold the air-conditioning compressors in place failed, and rather than disassemble everything in order to fix them, NYCT has elected to leave them without their A/C, which is installed, but not functioning.
Their unit numbers are as follows:
3594-3595
3880-3881
3892-3893
3936-3937
3934-3935 are not in service. The Parts Vultures at 207th Street Shoppe have cannibalised these two cars for parts to keep the other eight running. When on the "C", they run as a set. When on the "A", they tack on an R38 pair (usually #3976-3987) to complete the train.
Wayne
10/26/99
Wayne,
Why the disparity in the numbers? Couldn't the TA have chosen the last ten R-32's (3940-3949) for GOH,so those numbers would flow into the R-38's (3950-4149)? Doesn't make sense that those numbers jump around.
Bill Newkirk
Makes no sense whatsoever. Perhaps they were chosen at random. Anyway the last post I had numbers wrong (typo) s/b #3976-3977. We saw all four sets of R32GE today on various "A"s, they weren't running as a set - four cars in each consist. So they DO move around.
On the Slant Front - looks like the roofs are returning to health and the Bondo Lines are vanishing, at least on the 4400-series cars out on the "L" train. We had a ball riding Redbirds and Slants to-day!
Wayne
When will you be riding again? Brian
Simon Billis and I ride on November 8. If you'd like, e-mail me and I can set up another day later in November - Saturday after Thanksgiving may be available.
Wayne
Last week I saw a train of 4 R40 slants, and 6 R32(or38)'s deadheading through west 4 at about eleven at night.
Which level was it on and what were the destination signs on them?
10/27/99
SINCE IT WAS DEADHEADING,PERHAPS IT WAS A SHOP MOVE ?
Bill Newkirk
40 Slants are never IN SERVICE in a mixed set.
i keep seeing on the nyc subwau list that the cars that were running as a test on the #2 line are now running on the #7 line. Is this true or false.
Still waiting for the arrival of the R62 or R62A for the 7..those R36 have waay too much scratches and rust on them
I they get new cars they will be R-62 not R-62A because the R-62 is the most reliable in the system. If the trains on the 7 fail there would be no substitute.
lets not go with surface appearance as a judge of the R36's on the 7 line . The cars assigned to Corona Shops on the 7 line are the best maintained and the best operating redbirds systemwide ... just about every redbird left in the system has scratchitti but the rust that encrusts those cars is just an indicator that the end is near for those trusty old ladies.
I need some help ( as all who read my posts know, but you can't help me with those problems ). I am interested in the Manhattan Beach Branch. I get the impression that it was not related to the Brighton line. Did it come off the LIRR tracks around Ave H and if so, by what route did it come south? Now was this separate from the spur off the Brighton line around Ave. X? Or are they one and the same. I've been searching the web for information about the Manhattan Beach Branch, and found a site at Stoney Brook, which I think you have to go in person to a special LIRR collection.
If possible keep your answers simple in light of my inability to digest fatty foods. Thanks heypaul
Oh yeah, one other question. Does the line still run? (Just a joke, I know that they made it into an underground line that runs only on prime numbered days. I hear it passing under my apartment house quite frequently )
HeyPaul ... this is what I know so far.
Until the mid-20s, a parallel service to the old Sheepshead Bay race track and Manhattan Beach was provided by the LIRR and branched off from the (today) South Brooklyn freight line that crosses under the Brighton Line between Avenues H & I. The racertrack covered an area which extended approximately from Ave. X to Ave. Z, from Ocean Ave. to a few blocks east of Nostrand Ave. Evidence of the railroad line can be seen in various places:
- The "unusually long" bridge abutments on the east side of many of the avenue crossings along the Brighton Line embankment. Some of the houses built along East 16th Street use these abutments to support backyard porches!
- An abandoned tunnel or flying junction at Avenue X which was part of the R.O.W. of the BRT - Sheepshead Bay Race Track
- At Gravesend Neck Road & East 16 Street, there are blocked up "stairways to nowhere". At one time, they led to the Neck Road station of the LIRR Manhattan Beach line. The widely-spaced stairways would seem to indicate side platforms.
--Mark
[The racertrack covered an area which extended approximately from Ave. X to Ave. Z, from Ocean Ave. to a few blocks east of Nostrand Ave. Evidence of the railroad line can be seen in various places]
Do any traces remain of the racetrack itself?
I am not aware of any remnants of the Sheepshead Bay racetrack.
--Mark
I don't know if you can call this a remnant of the racetrack but the Sheepshead Bay Handicap, a race first held there is still being run annually at Belmont Park.
((( It's been a bad evening. Strange Crowd. Two guys at a table arguing over whether to use Russian or Greek letters for designation of new subway lines. There's a guy in uniform pouring over the Saratoga racing forms. They still have not mopped up the mess that the man threw up, and flies are buzzing all over it. And the Chairman of the local bank, one of my best laughers, was taken out by Federal agents for laundering funds that were not dirty. It turns out that he has obsessive compulsive disorder )))
Thanks guys for the link to the LIRR site. It made my head spin, with all the name changes. If you can digest it for me, and just give me details like there was a y connection with Bay Ridge Branch, that will be appreciated. I guess I've gotten spoiled by being able to refer to my local transit as the D train or the Q train.
I've been wondering what they did with all the earth that they excavated when they put the Bay Ridge Line below grade? They couldn't have put all of it under a rug.
((( Well my set is over, and the rabid dog act is about to come on stage. As I leave the club, I see
a drunk urinating down the stairs of the IRT entrance singing Happy Birthday August Belmont )))
The earth from both the Bay Ridge and Brighton excavations was used to build the embankment south of Avenue H.
Part of the earth from other subway lines was used as landfill.
Whatever is left is swept under a large rug.
Actually, there is a "living remnant" of the former Sheepshead Bay Race Track: the small but evident black community within the neighborhood are mostly direct descendents of former jockeys.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Doug. I don't think I was really aware of the relation between the black community around E. 15 and the Race Track. That's very interesting to me. Like you say, those people are a living thread to the past.
About your planned trip on the Bay Ridge Line, how risky will that be in terms of local authorities and local people? paul
hey Vernon Dent - wasn't he the one who swallowed the lite bulb in the Phone Booth w/Shemp, Larry & Moe in "Scrambled Brains"? That has to be one of the funniest and most despicable things I has ever seen!
We had a great time in Eastern and Southern Division today. SOOOO nice to ride on the "Q" train and fast-moving Slant R40s.
Wayne
I may be alittle off the mark by saying the community's black residents are descendants of the race track jockeys, but most are related in some way to folks who were employed at the track in one way are another.
BTW, does anyone know whether or not the Sheepshead or Coney Island tracks had dog racing tournaments?
Heypaul aka vernon dent, I notice your handle changes rather frequently these days. What gives?
Regarding the Bay Ridge Line: The NYPD won't bother anyone walking on the ROW so long as no crimes are being committed there. The LIRR Police might have something to say, but they do not patrol the line. Their only presence is at the East New York/Atlantic Ave. intersection where there is a 24-hour Police cruiser/van stationed by the Flatbush Ave. Branch's E. New York station. Under normal circumstances the LIRR police are not concerned with the Bay Ridge Branch since it does not involve passenger revenue service. It is up to the New York & Atlantic Railway to maintain the line anyhow and they have no problems with people casually walking the line so long as the ROW is not disturbed.
The only real concern would be the presence of stray dogs or unruly homeless people that might be encountered, as rare as that might be. In my Feb. 99 walk I saw a few homeless encampments, but only came across one homeless man who was minding his own business and was quite harmless. I DID encounter a couple of stray dogs that appeared threatening -- but picking up a large stick -- I was able to scare them off.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Doug. I was checking some of the Brooklyn books
and so far I find no mention of there being dog
racing at Sheepshead or Brighton Beach tracks. I
know after betting was prohibited, both tracks had
auto racing for a while. I guess you could ask the
Sarge, most of the horses he bets on are dogs.
About the Sheepshead Bay Track, in the Merlis book
Brooklyn's Gold Coast, they claim that the first
successful powered flight took off from the
Sheepshead Race Track. Two small motorized
dirigibles took off from the track and went to
Brighton Beach and back, a trip of over 45 minutes.
This was on 9-30-1902. This predated the Wright
Brothers by more than a year. They also mentioned
that the first demonstration of the military uses of
aircraft occured in August 1910 at the track
during an air show when an army lieutenant fired
several rifle shots at ground targets from a plane
piloted by Glenn Curtiss. (He was aiming at
spectators, just a joke ) All this was on page 22 of the book.
All the more evidence that everything originated in
Brooklyn, and what's more right from where I live.
From the same place that my words are foreshadowing future events. Be warned.
As for my use of different names, I'm having a
little identity crisis due to a change in major
tranquilizers. But don't let anyone know about it.
I don't think some of the folks here would
understand.
I too suffered from Howard's Disease too as a child, from too much watching the Officer Joe Bolton show. My Mom says I used to act out some of the skits as a little kid (the nose honk, the eye "Y", etc). I still haven't fully recovered (nyuk,nyuk,nyuk!).
Wayne
I'm in my forties and I think these guys are funnier to me now than they were when I saw them with Officer Joe Bolton.
Couldn't hold a candle to Abbott & Costello!!!
The Stooges are funnier to me now because the older kids no longer try out their routines on me.
Officer Joe came across as a really nice guy. I was said when I heard he died not long ago.
Does anyone else know/remember that he was a TV weatherman (WPIX, IIRC) before becoming Officer Joe? Todd?
10/29/99
Speaking of the 3 Stooges,there are 2 of their 20 min Colubia shorts wher traction makes an appearance.Although the titles escape me I'll describe the plot a close as possible:
1) In this episode,the 3 Stooges are delivering a block of ice on a hot day up a long flight of steps.Several attemps fail because at the top the large block of ice melts into an ice cube. Shot from the top of this hill,if you look at the street far below,you'll see a two car (MU) set of Pacific Electric double ended PCC's moving from right to left.
2) In this episode,the Stooges are firemen in LA AND Curly unspools a section of fire hose across the street and a "California Type" car rolls over the hose and cuts them into pieces. Curly's answer was "Oh look! little baby hoses! Then Moe applies punishment as usual.
Bill Newkirk
The Mack Sennett comedies were full of great trolley shots. Especially the older Popeye cartoons frequently used trolleys as a plot device. In fact, though the creator of Popeye (Segar) was from somewhere in the midwest, a lot of his '30s cartoons remind me of dockside Brooklyn in the '50s. And have you ever seen the cartoons of "The Toonerville Trolley (That Meets All Trains)"?
I've heard it said more than once that the pre-embankment Brighton or surface Culver were used in Vitagraph films, but I've never seen positive confirmation of this, and I'm not sure the timeframe is right.
Weren't there trolleys, too, in "Three Little Beers", when they send the truckful of kegs rolling down the 45-degree hill into the intersection? Oh, what they did to that golf course in that one!
Panther Beer, hmmmm...
Moe (with faucet handle in hand): "PRESS"
Larry (with same) "PRESS".
Curly: "PULL".
Wayne
I don't know if Joe Bolton was a weatherman but he definitely was a WPIX 11 announcer between shows, station breaks and promos. For example: "Stay tuned for...." By the way, I remember a really beautiful channel 11 weather girl in the late 50's, early 60's-Gloria Okon (Spelling?) I was a little tyke and she did the 7:30 weather while I was waiting for the Honeymooners.
Officer Joe did the weather on WPIX. I think he also hosted the St. Paddy's day parade, although thinking about it now, it was Jack McCarthy. Did Fireman Todd Russell host the Stooges also, or was he with Abbott & Costello?
Officer Joe always used to tell the kids to do their homework early on Fridays so that they could have the weekend free to have fun. I think Officer Joe passed away, I'm not sure about Todd Russell. They were both very warm and positive images, and did much to prevent me from leading a life of crime and pyromania.
Joe Bolton did save me from a life of crime, but my pyromania is unabated.
I was just looking at the site on historical maps, click on 1880s there are two maps there, one of the Bay Ridge Branch and one of the Coney Island Area. They do have maps of the Manhatten Beach Branch in them. But there is a gap between Ave J and T
If I recall correctly the Abbott & Costello TV Show didn't have a host. It was a half hour sitcom. There were 52 episodes which I have all of them. I also have all their full length movies except one-"It Ain't Hay". I've been looking all over for it!!!
Love Abbott & Costello. I've got a bunch of those show on tape also. I like the tv shows better than their movies. Pure vaudeville. "Hillary's Father" is one of my favorites. "ALRIGHT"
Did you ever see that excellent tv movie about them "Bud And Lou" with Harvey Korman and Buddy Hackett? I'd love to find a copy of that.
Joe Bolton hosted the Three Stooges and Dick Tracy shows on Channel 11. When he moved to Dick Tracy, he was promoted to "Chief" Joe Bolton so that the cartoon Dick Tracy could "answer" his calls with an animated segment in which he says "OK Chief, I'll get on it right away!"
Officer Joe also hosted the "Our Gang" comedies on WPIX. I think this was before (or perhaps concurrent with) he hosted the Stooges.
Remember the song he pretended to whistle as he twirled his nightstick?
WHAT HAS THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE ROUTE OF THE MANHATTEN BEACH LINE? somebody change the name of your subject to Capt Bolton, or 3 stooges etc, and please keep to the title subject, ok ?? thank you
IIRC, the tune "Where has my little dog gone."
Whiel we're talking about best loved kid's show hosts, I've got to vote for the Merry Mailman. I don't know his real name. I remember parts of his song (imperfectly, I'm sure):
I am the Merry Mailman
Ring, ring, your bell I'll ring
That's my very special ring
And here is what I'll bring:
A letter from your Grandma
A package for your dad...
After that my brain goes dead.
To the youngun's here: Thanks for your patience with my ramblings. The early days of TV didn't last very long. And there were kids' shows to be enjoyed for television was produced in "workshops" inhabited by giant feather dusters and grotesque puppets in garbage cans.
The Merry Mailman was Ray Heatherton (sp?), father of actress Joey. He passed away about 5-7 years ago.
Are we getting a little too far off topic?
I know this is waaaaay off topic, but one of the best "kiddie show" hosts of all time has got to be 'Uncle Floyd' (Channel 68, Newark, NJ). He was on during the 70's (I was in college at the time). He did so many 'in-jokes' and semi-raunchy jokes on his show, that most of it went over the heads of the audience he was slotted for. Oddly enough, his most ardent fans were COLLEGE AGE and he did a number of personal appearances at various New York tri-state area campuses.
'Uncle' Floyd Vivino also had a role in the Robin Williams film "Good Morning, Vietnam", as well as appearing in the newer Bill Cosby show (the one set in Queens) as one of Cosby's neighbors.
SubDude
Uncle Floyd was great, but only marginally a kiddy show.
It was a goof kid shows of the '50s aimed at the college and older crowd.
Ray Heatherton (The Merry Mailman) lived in Malverne L.I. Thats where his daughter Joey grew up. I know people who knew them. And by the way, Joey Heatherton is still sexy in her fifties!!
Didn't Officer Joe Bolton also host Couregous Cat, Felix and Hercules cartoons. I also thought he was associated with introducting Speed Racer, Gigantor, Eigth Man and Astro Boy (the original Jap cartoon shows). Maybe I have the channels mixed up here??
SubDude
Remember Captain Jack McCarthy hosted Popeye on the same channel (WPIX-11) as Officer Joe Bolton. Three bells.....
Is there anyone out there who remembers the Merry Mail Man. Ray Heatherton (Joey s dad) and Smilen Jack McConnell? Or the show Super Serial (brilsk)Mon-Fri 5.00PM
Merry Mail Man - yes. I had forgotten who it was - I knew it wasn't Joe Bolton or Jack McCarthy. "Super Serial" doesn't ring a bell.
But how about "Mattie's Funday Funnies"? This featured Harvey cartoons like Casper the Friendly Ghost, Herman and Catnip, Baby Huie, and Little Audrey - and a character called Buzzy the Crow who (it is obvious in hindsight) was a blatantly racist caricature of black people, although I didn't realize it at the time. It was sponsored by Mattel - "Mattie" was the little boy wearing a crown who sits on top of the "M" in the Mattel trademark. I may be wrong, but I think the first ads for Barbie appeared on this program. Eventually it was replaced by "Beany and Cecil".
Yes I remember the "Funday Funnies", back around 1960 or so.
I also remember quite clearly Sandy Becker's show; he had both morning and afternoon editions. Bert Kaempfert's "That Happy Feeling" was the morning show theme. Another catchy Bert Kaempfert tune was the PM theme as well; don't remember the title - had the flute part in it.
Other shows I used to watch: Fred Hall's Art Class, Queen For a Day, Art Linkletter's House Party, The King and Odie Show, and, of course, one of my favorites, American Bandstand, with the ageless Dick Clark.
I remember Neil Sedaka performing his ode of unrequited love to fellow writer Carole King "Oh, Carole" (set against a backdrop of a maze of pipes); Bobby Rydell doing "Wild One", "Image Of A Girl" by the Safaris (I THINK) (with the tick-tock clock beat), and Chubby Checker putting on a live demonstration of "The Twist" to a wild cheering crowd.
Wayne
10/31/99
I remember Sonny Fox's "Wonderama" as mentioned before. They had a mini bleacher set up with kids competing agaginst the other team. I remember the team colors, the GOLD team and the BLUE team. I allways rooted for the BLUE team. Of course blue and gold are New York City's colors.
Bill Newkirk
blue and gold are New York City's colors
Blue and orange.
Attaboy Paul: Blue and Orange, NYC's colors, the Mets" colors, and my personal favorite colors. If you ever entered my trophy room in my house, you'd know. Everything in that room is either blue or orange, and I mean everything.
The show with Blue and Gold teams was not actually Wonderama but another Sonny Fox show that ran on Saturdays. I remember that they used the same studio as "Romper Room" at Ch.5, 205 East 67th Street.
Wonderama started as a 3 hour show. One usually hilarious segment happened when Sonny, or maybe it was Bob McAllister by then, took girls' purses and dumped them on his desk, examining all the contents.
(I always wanted one of those Ross Apollo bicycles.)
I think that other Sonny Fox show with the blue & gold teams was called "Just For Fun". Anyone remember?
Now that I think about it I think it was "Lets Have Fun". Please, anyone remember for sure? I always rooted for the gold team, although I don't remember why.
[Now that I think about it I think it was "Lets Have Fun". Please, anyone remember for sure? I always rooted for the gold team, although I don't remember why.]
I remember for sure. It WAS "Just For Fun". I used to watch Just For Fun on Saturday mornings and Wonderama on Sunday mornings. And Bob McAllister could never fill Sonny Fox's shoes.
11/02/99
Wasn't "Let's have fun" the show that was hosted by Chuck McCann ?
Bill Newkirk
Does anyone remember CAPT. VIDEO AND HIS VIDEO RANGERS? both times it was on, one as a show and the other him showing the old 30 s B-Serials, Or Tom Corbett Space Cadet, Super Serial with Jolly Jack on Channel 9 from 1955-58 5.00PM, Kukla Fran and Olie, There must be some of you guys who grew up with tv in the late 40s early 50s
I only remember it on the Honeymooners. You know, when Ralph & Norton shared a TV.
Official space helmet off, Captain Video!!!
And who remembers "Your Hit Parade" from the 1950's? It starred
Dorothy Collins, Gisele McKenzie, Snooky Lamson, and Russell Arms.
Lucky Strike was the long-time sponsor and Jack Benny co-produced
the show'
They used to sing the 10 most popular songs, down from 10 to 1, Rock and Roll Killed that show
I do. Lucky Strike and Schaefer Beer were sponsors of the Brooklyn Dodgers and some of those people on the hit parade were Dodger fans.
LSMFT, Ok Schafer Beer and Lucky s Sponsored the Dodgers, Ballentine and White Owl Cigars sponsored the Yanks. Who sponsored the GIANTS? I forgot
Who remembers the Duggin Cake Trucks, they had the best cup cakes. I know most of your remember the Automatic, but how many remember Dubrows? Ebinger Bakeries in Brooklyn. The Arthur Mazel Resturaunts which specialized in local cusines in different states. Ex California, Virginian, The New Yorker and Bdwy and 32nd. And of the course the Good Humor Man
My mom used to work at the Ebinger's that was at the corner of Nostrand Ave. and (I think) President Street. That was back in the 60's, near the end of the company's rein.
I even remember a BIG Ebinger's bakery outlet that was located at the corner of Bedford Ave. and Cortelyou Road.
Funny thing about that particular store is that it is related to our favorite subject -- rapid transit. After going out of business, the Ebinger's building was bought by the NYCTA and has/had been used by Track & Structures and/or Signaling for storage of their vehicles and some signaling and other trackside equipment.
SubDude
11/07/99
SubDude or subdued?
I used to work at Lafayette Electronics from 1968-1972 at Bedford and Snyder. The Ebingers main bakery should be placed at Tilden Ave.,Cortelyou would have been a few blocks away. Don the street on Snyder between Bedford and Flatbush was the old 67th Pct.,which figured in the aftermath of the Malbone Street wreck.
Can't get used to your new "handle" SubDude. Doug aka "BMT Man" has a sort of superhero sound to it. I can now here the announcers voice:
"Faster than a speeding turnstile jumper......more powerful than a R-68......able to leap 130 Livingston St. in a single bound...look down in the subway....it's a railfan..it's a road car inspector....it's BMT MAN!!! Of course you cape and tights in the BMT colors with the rectangular BMT logo on you chest wouldn't hurt!!
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Bill. Very cute post. ;-)
Yeah, I know alot of our fellow SubTalkers are having a hard time getting use to the new handle. I just might have to go back to BMTman after all.
BTW, thanks for bringing up Layfayette Electronics. I remember that store well. As a matter of fact, I think I bought my first turntable and HI-FI system from there! That location for the past 10 years has been a Caribbean catering hall called (I think) Afrika House (I was there for a wedding reception once). Having attended Walt Whitman JHS at Rogers Ave. and Tilden, I am quite familiar with the blocks around the school.
BTW, after your Layfayette branch closed, I seem to recall that the one store in the chain that lasted for some time into the 1980's was located at the end of the block where the Kings Plaza Mercedes-Benz is presently located. It was the last true block of Flatbush Ave. before the start of the golf course and Gateway National Park (actually Flatbush Ave. extension). Places like Crazy Eddie's (remember the original store on Coney Island Ave.?) and The Wiz killed Layfayette by undercutting their prices.
SubDude
I always thought that it was Radio Shack that did Lafayette in.
You could be right there. However, I would assume that it was an assault from all three of those chains that spelled the eventual doom of Lafayette stores.
BTW, I thought this thread's title needed a change -- now it's more appropriate.
SubDude
lafayette wasn't just in B'klyn. They were headquartered in Syosset, LI. they did have a store in Queens, on Queens Blvd. + 63rd Drive, which was the one I patronized.
Funny, I do not know if it was the same Company, but there was a Laffayette Electronics in the San Fernando Valley in Los Angeles in the 70s-80s
11/08/99
There was one in that area in the early 70's exactly where I don't know. Most likely a francise store.
Bill Newkirk
I assumed they were a regional chain. I was merely referring to the Lafayette stores in the borough of Brooklyn.
SubDude
They had a branch in Poughkeepsie. That one, at least, was an affiliate store - it had been in business as Higgins and Shear long before the Lafayette name was associated with it. I remember going there with my Dad to test radio tubes - they had two big tube testers in the entryway that could test almost any kind of tube on the market. Whenever the radio or TV died Dad would pull all the tubes, stick them in a sack, and take them there to test and replace.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anyone remember a clerk in the Brooklyn Bedford
Avenue Lafayette who was an older short white man,
who had to hold a piece of paper right up in front
of his eyes to see it, but he knew the stock in that
store inside out. He was a very quiet, sweet man
who worked there toward the end. If I remember,
they closed up in Brooklyn right after the
Black-out. I believe the store was broken into.
They were a handy place to buy parts. I was never
too crazy about the quality of their own products.
They also had a store on lower 6th Avenue up in a
big building.
I'll always remember that man who worked the counter
on Bedford. I used to wonder what his life was like and what became of him?
He probably ended up working for one of the competition -- Radio Shack or The Wiz.
I almost forgot about the '77 blackout. That could have very well have 'put the nail in the coffin' for Lafayette, since they were always second to Radio Shack and the other electronics outlets in the 70's.
BTW, a long-staning camera store in my area of Flatbush, made the papers soon after the blackouts. The shop was called Bedford Camera and they were located on Flatbush Ave. just off of Winthrop Street. The store was gutted by the looters -- completely trashed -- but apparently it was the first store in the city to get government assistance to rebuild. They did just that -- but unfortunately -- the original owner threw in the towel at that point. He turned the store over to his co-owners who ran it for another 10-15 years. I believe they finally closed their doors sometime in the early 90's.
SubDude
11/08/99
heypaul,
Yes I remember him well. His name was Howard Johnson (no joke). He orignally hailed from Indiana but not sure where. I worked as a shipping ,sometimes receiving clerk and occasional counter salesman. When customers came in asking about CB , ham radio or electronics in general , I would refer them to Howard. He was thoroughly
knowledgable in those subjects. I remember the day they eased him out of his career. Because of his poor eyesight , sales receipts he wrote were manually scanned. All other sales receipts were computer scanned and this special treatment had to end. I recall the meeting with management he had , he was kinda upset about it. After he left , I never saw him again so I can say he worked for Radio Shack,Gem Electronics or The Wiz.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I remember Lafayette. They had a store across the street from Kings Plaza I used to frequent.
IIRC, they were swallowed up by Circuit City (I remember commercials ending with the words "Lafayette/Circuit City").
--Mark
Thanks Mark, That is what happen to them in California, they turned into Circuit City
We've got Circuit City outlets in metro Denver.
There is a longtime electronics store in Denver, Fistell's. They've been in the same building for decades, and going there is like going on a treasure hunt. They still carry vacuum tubes, and still have a tube tester. On top of that, they still had old car radio vibrators - until an American Flyer collector bought every last one in the store. A. C. Gilbert used a vibrator for their Air Chime whistle. You're reminded of the vintage of that Flyer stuff when you examine some of the devices they made. Coils, magnets, vibrators - all 1950s technology.
Radio Shack was really Lafayettes doom..Our local mall (with a Radio Shack) opened up here, and the local Lafayette almost immediatey went under and became a store called Action Audio...(and youre talkin to someone who gets a BIRTHDAY CARD each year from Tandy, Im such a good customer...)
...(and youre talkin to someone who gets a BIRTHDAY CARD each year from Tandy, Im such a good customer...)
How come I never got a birthday card from Tandy? I'm sure I've spent several thouands of dollars there over the last 25 years. I bought an expensive stereo system there, a CB radio, 2 ham radios, parts, tools, soldering irons, books, tape equipment, antennas, telephone answering machine, computer accessories, the list goes on and on. I made my first purchase there in 1973. My latest purchase was a $330 solar panel.
Who said life was fair? Don't feel bad; I've never gotten a birthday card from them, either.
I though Flatbush Ave Ext ran from DeKalb onto the Man Bridge, and after Ave U the name of the Street was Marine Parkway. Boy I remember going by there as a 7-8 year old going to Rockaway and Broad Channel, and the site of Kings Plaza was the CITY DUMP
Doug: Come on, SubDued? I liked your old monicker better. Why did you change? I wouldn't give a hoot except you gave me my nickname and I feel a sort of brotherhood with you.
Sea Beach Fred, I never knew I gave you your handle? Yeah, I think I'm going to have to go back to the old tried and true BMTman.....even though I thought I was being cute with the double meaning in SubDude (Subway Dude or Subdued).
SubDude
Sea Beach Fred, earlier you mentioned you lived in Queens, how did you get to like the Sea Beach Line, in those days the closest the Sea Beach ever got to Queens was 57th and 7th Ave Man
Try 42nd Street. For you Brighton Beach Bob, anything. Italian families always got together at their parents' houses on Sunday for a big dinner, and my paternal grandparents lived on 12th Street off of Avenue U, while my maternal grandparents lived on 65th Street off of New Utrecht Avenue. Since my father drove a cab for a living until late 1951, he was tired of driving and with a WEIRD son screaming for the subway, we took the subway. The #2 4th Avenue Local took us from Queens Plaza to 42nd Street, the terminal for the Southern BMT Lines.
Only the West End and Sea Beach went to my grandparents, and they were very close together at those two points. Naturally, I insisted on the Sea Beach because I loved those little tunnels we went through on our way. That plus it seemed the Sea Beach got us to Coney Island faster, so it seemed. For those reasons I became a Sea Beach nut, and the first thing I did when I returned to New York for the first time in 20 years in 1974 was-----you guessed it, I took the Sea Beach, now the "N" train instead of the "4", to Coney Island. End of story.
11/08/99
SubDood,
Go back to your old "handle" If BMT was in your "handle" , it was also in your blood. BMT runs through your veins like D-Types barreling between Prospect Park and 7th Avenue or R-32's on the Broadway Express.
Bill Newkirk
"May your rails be as shiny as Montel Williams bald head"
OK, OK. I suggested the handle Mr. Sea Beach in the first place. And, IIRC, you took it as a compliment.
I feel like Chris Berman of ESPN. Some of his nicknames are hilarious, such as Mike (You're in Good Hands with) Alstott. Or Bert (Be Home) Blyleven.
There was another Ebinger's bakery over on Flatbush Avenue. May have been at Tilden or perhaps Cortelyou.
My Grandmother lived for quite a few years at 2015 Dorchester, F-4.
As for myself, 2511 Newkirk (DORA COURT). I wonder what shape that lovely old building is in today. Dad went to Erasmus Hall, I was baptized at Saint Paul's (E.19th Street, above the Brighton line).
Talk of Flatbush brings back a lot of fond memories.
Wayne
Wayne, did you belong to the Flatbush Boys Club on Church near Rogers. On Kings Highway there were 2 Ebingers, one on KH and CI and one by E 18th. My mother used to have me get bread or cake there, and told me kif 18th St did not have it go to CI Ave, and she called to find out. I hated that. And good old Garfields on Church and Flatbush, my 2nd favorite Cafeateria in Bklyn after Dubrows under the Brighton Line on Kings Highway. I used to love to sit by the window of Dubrows and watch the trains, and Garfields to watch the Trolleys go by
11/07/99
Ebingers was a staple in Brooklyn , almost like Nathans. I wonder what did them in simce they were the Cadillac of bakery's. When ever "company" came over , it was guaranteed there was a box of Ebingers goods to go with the coffee. Or for me since I was young , milk. I can just picture and smell that chocalate "blackout" layer cake. YIKES !!
Bill Newkirk
Just a guess, but maybe Entenmann's did them in. On my High School Bulletin Board at Classmates.com there was a big thread about how there are very few bakeries left, especially on Long Island. Almost the only bakeries you see on LI now are the bakerie section of the supermarkets. And who knows, even though there is no comparison with a good bakery- the fact there is a Duncan Doughnut arterie clogging store on almost every corner certainly cannot help the bakeries.
I thought that besides competition -- which there was few when I was a kid -- I believe that labor problems made things rocky for the Ebinger's family. First, I think they originaly had non-union shops and got flack for that from unioned bakeries. Additionaly, they also caught flack from the government and local politicos for their lack of minority hiring (many of the neighborhoods where Ebinger's bakeries were situated starting becoming black or hispanic, but their workforce rarely reflected this change). I think there may have even been some civil rights boycotts of Ebinger's due to their hiring practices? (not sure about this).
SubDude
I remember anytime we went to family in the Bronx and later Rego Park, we always brought Ebingers. Here on Maui, there are no real bakeries, the ones that call themselves Bakeries, are more of a lunchonette. Safeway and a couple of the supermarkets have bakeries in it. There is one local bakery here, they specialize in Asian cakes, but it is not bad. One thing is, that we have two bagel factories here, and they make New York Style Bagels here, Not bad, but they do not have Egg Bagels. One flavor here and it is not bad is Macadamia Nut, and another is Pineapple. Also they do not have bialys. and get this. Safeway Bakery bakes a Egg Twist(Challah) one a year for the Holidays. But the wronbg one Passover.
We used to but Ebinger's all the time when I was a kid in the 1960's. They had a store in Forest Hills on Yellowstone Blvd, just off Queens Blvd. About 5 years ago, I saw some Ebinger's products being sold at Mazur's Supermarket which is just off Little Neck Parkway and the Long Island Expressway. Was that related to the original Ebinger's or had someone else bought out the name?
I think the original Ebinger's family sold off the name and company logo a few years ago to some regional bakery and that is why you will occasionaly come across an "Ebinger's" product at more trendy supermarkets.
SubDude
I'm sorry I missed that thread a week ago about Ebingers Bakery, I was on vacation---I also remember two other bakeries in Brooklyn, Cushmans and Krugs, both in Park Slope,both very good, plus a donut shop on Fifth Avenue and 9th street up the block from the 4th Ave IND station---these jelly donuts were the best ever, raspberry filling. But if I'm not wrong Ebingers (or maybe Cushmans) made something tremendous called a marigold ---yellow cupcake, upside down, dark fudge frosting---circa 1957 Sunday evenings---, boy, what a life.
Please, lets not get back to the baked goods thread...
That's DUGAN's bakery - they were headquartered over on 222nd Street in Queens Village, right where the present-day bus garage is located.
Wayne
My grandfather was partners with Ebinger many, many years ago. He sold his share long before I was born, but to this day many of Ebinger's receipes were my grandfather's. My mom still has some hand written versions of a few of them, many more in her head. BTW, I do remember Dubrows as well. Ahhh, those were the days.
My grandfather had a story like that. In Cedarhurst, or one of those towns back during WW I or so, He had a small Fruit Stand, Next door 2 Brothers had a grocery store and a Kosher Butcher. They asked my Grandfather if he would like to invest in a partnership and merge their properities to build under one roof. After some though my Grandfather said no, but he sold his store for $1500.00 a lot of money at the time. By the way the name of the Brothers were Waldbaums.
...and now you know the rest of the story.
Hey Rich, does that include the recipe for crumb buns with the tasty yellowish dough under the crumbs? Let me know. I'll become an ameteur baker to taste those things again.
"Hey Rich, does that include the recipe for crumb buns with the tasty yellowish dough under the crumbs? Let me know. I'll become an ameteur baker to taste those
things again." - Sorry to say, I'm not sure. It's been so long since my mom has done any baking, and my grandfather was already retired when I was born, I don't remember. Mostly there were alot of pastries and cookies.
Ah too bad. I was really hoping you might be able to give me the recipe. Believe me, those crumb buns of my youth were delicious.
FRed, get into your car next Sunday, take the 210 West, into the 134 to the. 170 Hollywood Freeway north to Victory West. Go west on Victory about 3/4 mile. There will be some stores on right just past Coldwater Cyn Ave. A Bakery called Browns Victory. NY Style Bakery. The original brothers who passed were from Bensonhurst on Bay Pkwy. Theywere friends of my parents in the 70s
To get us back on subject and have some fun,
Follow That Man with Ralf Bellamy was filmed in the Bronx out of the Biograph Studios at 198th St & Deactur Ave (one block up from Webster). Some panoramic shots of the area showed the 3rd Ave El Botonial Garden Terminal in action. There may have been some filming at the terminal itself in 1949 or 1950. Many exterior scenes were shot all over the neighborhood and Bronx Park. I met Ralf Bellamy, and Mrs King Kong herself, Faye Raye. I would sure like to see some of those Follow That Man eposodes again.
Follow that man was the reruns of the original title "Man Against Crime sponsored by Camel cigarettes/ Remember Martin Bellamy was Mike Barnett with two t's/ Though the show was filmed in the Bronx, Barnett was a Dodger fan.
I think that the actor's name was Ralph Bellamy. Remember when Ralph Bellamy went on vacation, Robert Preston would take his place and portray Mike's brother Pat.
A Lot of TV Shows were filmed in Midwood Section off of Ave M and E 13th St(Off the Brighton) The old Cosby show was taped there, along with Many NBC Programs, I know quite a few are now being filmed at Silvercup Studios (Former bakery) in LIC. Wasn t it Silvercup who sponsored Hoppalong Cassidy in NY in the 50s
I have no idea who Hoppy's sponsor was. When I was a kid I disliked Hoppy with a passion, and never watched the show. Now, many years later, I have no idea at all why I had felt that way. Now, one of my friends is an avid Hopalong Cassidy fan and trys to get every videotape out of Hoppy's old movies.
I read an article not too long ago that mentioned that one of Hoppy's TV sidekicks was Edgar Buchanan, who was the same guy who played Uncle Joe in the old TV series Petticoat Junction. That sure was a shock to learn.
Another one of Hopalong Cassidy's sidekicks was George (Gabby)
Hayes, who had his own TV series in 1954 about frontier American
history. Quaker Oats was the sponsor.
General Host, which made Bond Bread, a Philadelphia product, was
Hoppy's sponsor.
That's correct.
They had a Lionel Train delivering the milk for the bread.
Any train nut worth his track pins would remember that.
Brighton Beach Bob: I got you now. Silvercup Bread, my favorite as a kid, did not sponsor Holalong Cassidy. Bond Bread did and it tasted like crap. They made Bond Bread in Brooklyn, and Silvercup in Queens. I lived catty corner across the street from Silvercup Bread. We used to get their day old bread and it made great toast. Silvercup sponsored the Cisco Kid for a time, and then Tip Top Bread took over the sponsorship of that show. Tip Top tasted wose than Bond Bread.
Biograph was also where they filmed "Car 54 Where are You?" and "Sgt Bilko" in the late 50's/early 60's...Which is why, for example, youll suddenly see half the 1958 Yankees in a Sgt Bilko....
LSMFT, Ok Schafer Beer and Lucky s Sponsored the Dodgers, Ballentine and White Owl Cigars sponsored the Yanks. Who sponsored the GIANTS? I forgot Also don t forget to vote for Miss Rheingold of 1956 in your local store
Chesterfield Cigarettes and Knickerbocker Beer were the NY Giants sponsors. In one of the last games I saw there, Stan Musial hit 3 homers that day.
Camel cigarettes and Pabst Blue Ribbon beer also sponsored the
Yankees' games on TV. Also, Ballantine beer was a long-time
sponsor of pro football along with Ford and Sunoco.
I used to watch Wonderama as well, but only after Bob McAllister took over. There was a plug at the time when Sonny Fox's last appearance on the show was approaching.
Then there was Daphne's Cartoon Castle and Pixanne. Sandy's Street and Winchell-Mahoney Time. All on Channel 5, WNEW.
Sandy Becker? I always wondered what happened to him. In 1952-54 he had a show called "Ask the Camera". The sponsor was the long deceased Premier foods. They loved to brag about Premier Sauce Arturo. I tried it once and almost threw up. It was loaded with onions, the one food I despise. Then I found out that Sandy Becker was a Giants fan. That was enough for me. Being a youngster of 12 I felt he had conspired against me with that crappy Sauce Arturo, and a Giants fan to boot. As a Brooklyn fan that was too much. When the Dodgers smashed the Giants 10 games in a row during the last half of the 1953 season, I sent in a wise crack note to Becker at Channel 11 ( I think it was channel 11). He never answered me back. Too bad.
I remember waking up so early on Saturday mornings, all there was on were shows like Agriculture USA and such...But channel 4 started off Saturday mornings with two shows: a show called Col. Bleep, which I dont remember too well,and then a show called Dodo, the Kid from Outer Space..anybody remember these shows??
I have never met anyone who remembered Colonel Bleep!! I guess it didn't run too long. Although the memory has faded some, he was a stick figure-ish guy from space (with a fishbowl type helmet). I think he had some kind of powers and maybe he had to recharge once and awhile? I clearly remember it was my favorite show when it was on, must be about 40 or more years ago.
I was never into Saturday morning cartoons. Even back then, I always slept in on Saturday. Then I woke up at 10 or 11, now I wake up at like 1 or 2, maybe 3.
ROYAL ISLAND
11/04/99
No , I don't remember those kiddy shows. I do remember "Modern Farmer" which began the day about 6 or 6:30 on Saturday morning. I believe "Modern Farmer" predated "Agriculture USA".
Something I needed in my life growing up in Flatbush , Brooklyn !!
Bill Newkirk
Say, Bill, any chance you lived close to the Brighton Line, somewhere near NEWKIRK Ave.? ;-)
Just a bit SubDude
11/05/99
SubDude,
Yes, Ocean and Newkirk Ave's to be correct.
Bill Newkirk
I loved Modern Farmer, ever tho' it was the only thing on at that time anyway (no 50-80 channels like today). All the great farm machinery was my favorite.
Bill Newkirk-Is it still Flatbush or did they change the name a couple of times in 30 plus years?
To Bob: It's not Bill Newkirk, but having lived in Flatbush in my you't (remember "My Cousin Vinnie"?) I can say that no Flabush PROPER hasn't changed. However, Here's my (1970s to 1980s) understanding of the boundaries of the neighborhood called Flatbush:
To the North: Empire Blvd (further north is Crown Heights)
To the East: Albany Ave. (further east is East Flatbush)
To the West: Ocean Parkway (further west is Kensington)
To the South: Ave H. by "The Junction" (further south is Midwood on the western edge; Flatlands on the eastern edge)
This should be fairly accurate to the best of my knowledge. Things could be somewhat different, but I doubt it. Perhaps Bill Newkirk or Paul Matus can add their expertise to this post.
SubDude
[Here's my (1970s to 1980s) understanding of the boundaries of the neighborhood called Flatbush:
To the North: Empire Blvd (further north is Crown Heights)
To the East: Albany Ave. (further east is East Flatbush)
To the West: Ocean Parkway (further west is Kensington)
To the South: Ave H. by "The Junction" (further south is Midwood on the western edge; Flatlands on the eastern edge)]
Don't you mean Ocean Avenue as the western border rather than Ocean Parkway? I had though that the area "between the Oceans" was generally considered Kensington, with the northern end being Prospect Park South.
When I was in New York this past June, I bought the book called "Neighborhoods of Brooklyn" and the neighborhoods that i remember were just as you mentioned it. I lived on Kings Highway and E 23rd St, We called it Flatbush then, Maybe because all the kids went to Madison they did not was to be associated with our neighbor up Bedford Ave Midwood. Now the book has sub neighborhoods that were not there then like Madison Park, Kings Bay, etc. I remember as a kid my uncles and dad said the old neighborhoods, were actually the old towns from pre 1898 Kings County, and Brooklyn took up 1/3 in the Northern Part of the Boro. I actually learned a lot from the book. My postings are late because I am 5 hours behind you, and I was down for 1 1/2 days. It has taken me about 4 hours to catch up, and I am not even lookng at postings that do not interest me after the 2 or 3 answer. Aloha & Mahalo Bob
I lived on Kings Highway and E 23rd St
I moved to East 35th St & Kings Highway (right by the traffic circle) in November of 1974; my parents still live there. Whenever people asked me what part of Brooklyn I lived in, it was always difficult to answer because maps were never consistent - some called it Flatlands (which I think is further east), some called it Marine Park (I think that's stretching it a bit), some Midwood (further west) and others Marine Park/Mill Basin (and that location isn't close to Mill Basin at all to be considered in the same neighborhood). I used to sometimes call it, probably incorrectly. the "Kings Highway" section of Brooklyn. It wasn't as definitive as living in Brighton Beach, where I lived from the day I was born until our move in 1974.
--Mark
Mark, that's probably the right description if my memory is correct.
A few blocks south and you would have been in Marine Park. North of Kings Highway would have put you in Midwood. East of Flatbush Ave. and the neighborhood would have been Flatlands.
BTW, I even recall a local street gang from your area in the mid-80's called "The Kings Highway Boyz" (they were more like a group of knuckleheads rather than a serious threat to citizenry).
PS I thought this thread needed a change. It made no sense after awhile.
SubDude
Does anybody remember the Fordham Baldies?
I think Coney Island Avenue is the boundary between "Kensington" and Flatbush. I didn't even think Kensington was a real name, I though it was a failed plot by real estate agents to gentrify the area.
You might be right there Eugenius. As a kid I never heard of Kensington. I always recall that east of Flatbush you came to Borough Park. Apparently sometime in the 60s or 70s some smart real estater came up with the term for a thin slice of an area roughly from Ocean Pwky to the east and 38th or 39th Streets (?) to the west. I think that just as with the "Prospect Lefferts Gardens" designation in north Flatbush, Kensington came about from the pressure of the brownstoners in the E. 8th Street area between Fort Hamilton Pkwy. and Church Ave. to have a bit of an "exclusive enclave". I could be wrong, but that's usually the M.O. when neighborhoods acquire these new names for an area that only runs a few blocks.
SubDude
11/05/99
Bob#1 Brighton exp man,
On one of the brown "historic' street signs on the top heading is the title "Ditmas Park". Or maybe that name was given to make it a historic district. I remember it as "Kensington" section of Flatbush.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Bill Newkirk. But is sstill BROOKLYN. I have a T shirt I ordered from the Brooklyn Brewery in Greenpoint. It has Brooklyn Beer Weisse on the Front with their Logo, and on the real it states " YO!ICH BIN EIN Brooklyner, even though I have not lived in Brooklyn for 41 years
I remember the Merry Mail Man. The only "Smilings" I remember were Smiling Ed's Gang (I think his name was Ed McConaghy) and his replacement, Smiling Andy, who was Andy Devine, the cowboy star.
How about remembering when Jack Barry's first TV show, in 1953,
was his kiddie show, "Winky Dink and You." And when Elfrieda von
Nardroff won more money than Charles Van Doren on Barry's quiz
show, "21," in 1958.
Also Funny Bonners, and Ed Herileys Horn and Hardock Childrens Hour. Boy I loved the Automat and Dubrows on Kings Highway
Don't forget Beany & Cecil, Corageous Cat, Depity Dawg and Winchell Mahoney Time. Whenever anyone asked me "Where were you when the lights went out?" I was watching Winchell Mahoney Time.
You too,huh? I wonder how many people who are now in theur very late 30's/early 40's have that as their blackout memory....I remember the tv picture fading..THEN the lights going....
Does anyone remember Pinky Lee???
Too young to remember much. He had a checkered hat. One year my aunt was friendly with the manager of the Unemployment Office that was located on Broadway and had large picture windows for a 3rd or 4th floor. On Thanksgiving Day he "opened" the office to invited people, set up chairs in front of the window for us kids to watch the Macy's parade. Don't remember much about the parade except that I was mad that Pinky kept waving to the people on the East side of Broadway and never waved to the people on the West side of the street (me!).
For some reason he was one of my favorites, I think I was about 3 rr 4 at the time, so I don't remember much either.
Toward the end of his show, it was broadcast from Burbank Cal Studios of NBC, my ex wife told me she was on the show when she was 9i, so that makes it 1957 about. Nobody mentioned Bozo the clown. There were actually 23 of them, one in each major market. No 2 cities had the same one
How about capt video and the video rangers,with tobor the robot. Al Hodge was the star of the show on ch 5 in N.Y.C. he had a secret mountain lab and a spaceship which looked like a fighter jet, also Tom Corbett space cadet, and spacerangers,in 1985 i got to meet Al Hodge he was in fair health but was happy to know one of his fans still remembered him it was special to him.don't forget froggy the gremlin with the actor who played jingles on wild bill hickock,he replaced another host who died durring the season.i was about 10 yrs old at the time.
Sorry Bub, but Richard Coogan was the original Captain Video on Dumont Television Network Chanel 5 in l950-1951. And who can forget the evil Dr. Pauley who always came back to life after Captain Video jailed him. The crud would never die. To wit:
Captain Video
An electronic wizard
master of sky and space
guardian of our fundamental orders.
Let's not forget the homage paid to him by our favorite bus driver's friend ED NORTON when he and RALPH bought a TV. The famous line from that episode "READY WHEN YOU ARE CAPTAIN VIDEO".
I remember later on in the mid 50s when Capt Video was a just a tv dj type for the old Republic B Serials, like FLASH GORDON, AND THE 3 BUCK ROGERS with Larry Buster Crabb, Don Winslow of the Navy and Later the Coast Guard, and the Big Gene Autry Serial of Radio Mountain, and the people who lived beneith the Earth/ They don t make them like they used to. Or A sSaturday Morning at the AVALON OR KINGSWAY THEATERS, sponsored by Kings Highway savings Bank, once a month 10 Cartoons and a Western for a quarter. Does anyone remember the first movie they went to as a child alone, without a parent, friends parent, older sibling etc. I think mine was Jim Thorpe All American at age 8
By God, that's great Bob. I remember Don Winslow of the Navy. My TV tube was just dying out when the last chapter appeared on TV, and I never f ound out who the bad guy really was. All the suspects had been killed and only four remained. I always wondered if it was the kid's uncle who was the spy or bad guy. This serial concerned a formula that was worth one million dollars. I'd love to know if I was right about the bad guy. But since it was such a long time ago, only some wierdo like me with a photographic memory could tell me.
Excuse me but Al Hodge DID play tv's Captian Video,and Don Hastings ( who was in Mc Hales navy as Carptner) was the young ranger...http://www.etheatre.com/kids1.htm shows some shots of the show,when i spoke to Al Hodge he said he wished the series would continue with one of the video rangers as the star.he died several months ago.
Karl: Here's one for you. Big Town, starring Patrick McVey and Jane Nigh as Steve Wilson and Lorelei Kilborne of the Illustrated Press. The city was never given but it probably was in Chicago. It was on from 1949-1953. Jane was a stunning looking lady. And Ernest Borgnine used to play a heavy on many of the shows. It was brought to you by Lever Brothers, makers of Spry, Rinso, etc.
Rainsoft suds, rainsoft suds
happy little wash day song.
Rinso Rinso rain soft suds,
they wash your products rainsoft too
Rinso got that solium
To get clothes whiter and brighter than new.
Rainsoft suds, Rainsoft suds
happy little washday song..............This is some gig.
I used to love Ajax the foaming cleanser, boom boom, floats the dirt down the drain, or Pepsi Cola Thats the Spot, 12 full ounces thats a lot, and HO HO HO the Jolly Green Giant. For years that was the only corn and peas that i would eat
Brighton Bob: I can see you remember those jingles. Good job. It's amazing what this subject has brought back to my memory bank. Great, isn't it?
I used to love Ajax the foaming cleanser, boom boom, floats the dirt down the drain, or Pepsi Cola hits the Spot, 12 full ounces thats a lot, and HO HO HO the Jolly Green Giant. For years that was the only corn and peas that i would eat
Ok here's one for you.......Rinegold Beer a N.Y.C. favorite,the gingle.... My beer is rinegold the dry beer, think of rinegold whenever you buy beer, it's not bitter or sweet, extra dry flavored treat, woul'nt you buy extra dry rinegold beer. Does anyone remember that ?
Ok here's one for you.......Rinegold Beer a N.Y.C. favorite,the gingle.... My beer is rinegold the dry beer, think of rinegold whenever you buy beer, it's not bitter or sweet, extra dry flavored treat, woul'nt you buy extra dry rinegold beer. Does anyone remember that ?
I remember it and they have brought it back. Rhinegold (or a new company brewing beer with that name) is now sponcering the Mets (as the original did 30 years ago) and they are reusing that jingle. I always like the Schaffer jingle better.
Yeh, but Rheingold had all those pretty girls every year
How about Racket Squad starring Reed Hadley. "Captain Braddock, Captain Braddock, come in". He always got those con artists. Good show.
One of his lines was " they shake youre hand with one hand and pick your pocket with the other " if it was that show, anyone ever gone to Bloomingdales toy store to see Tom Corbett space cadet and the rocket ship they had ? and how about the lionel train club on tv in the early 60's had a cabose entrance and a club room.....remember ?
Lionel had a show room I think on E 26 or 26th Across from Madison Sq Pk, and Gilbert had one too, On the Corner of Bdwy, and 5th and 25th, I used to love to watch the toy trains in both places. All would be collectors items now
And also the hobby shop on 42nd and 30th run by a woman who had the store down in the basement,that place made my dad dizzy with all the brass locos they had,and in all scales too,also don't forget Polk's which had 5 floors fo hobbys.....are they still around ? my uncle was the elevator operator there.
Polks on 5th nbetween 31 and 32 is gone. I really loved that place as a kid
11/11/99
When did Polk's bite the dust?
Bill Newkirk
Right on all the accounts, but the best was SOUPY SALES, bring back Pookey, Hippy, White Fang the mean dog and Black Tooth, the sweetest dog, and the Old Perfessor
Yeah, I want Soupy back too! He's my favorite Kid's show host with a criminal record!! :-)
SubDude
And he is funnier then Pee Wee Herman
Sandy Becker was cool too..not to mention Chuck McCann. But- how bout all the cartoon hosts- Officer Joe Bolton with the Stooges, or Captain Jack McCarthy with Popeye (*ding ding*) Did anyone here get to fulfill my biggest childhood fantasy-appear on Wonderama? I loved Sonny Fox as a kid...never warmed up to McAllister...
How about the Merry Mailman, Ray Heatherton. He was Joey Heatherton's father. After the TV days ended he was a lounge singer in the local hotel (The Garden City Hotel) where he lived. Too bad the daughter didn't have half the career the old man had...She was a looker.
They lived in Malverne, L.I. where Joey grew up. Wasn't there a Playboy layout of her in her 50's a few years ago? If I remember she still looked very sexy.
Jeff, you are correct that Joey did a Playboy layout in an attempt to revive a dormant career (like Nancy Sinatra). Didn't seem to help. Although we're veering off the Sub-Talk topic, what ever happened to her first marriage and her first husband, Lance Retzel of the AFL??
That wasx in the early 60 s, and she divorced Rentzel in the mid 60s
Crusader Rabbitt, wasn t his partner Rags the Tiger. Does anyone remember Time for Beany before it was a cartoon but a puppet show, RIP Shari Lewis, we all grew up with her
Sure, I recall Time for Beany and my favorite, Cecil the Seasick Sea Serpent.
In fact, I recall most of them because, back in 1949, my family lived in a small apartment, didn't own a car, didn't go farther than Prospect Park for vacations, BUT we had a TV set, a 13-inch round-tubed Emerson.
Curiously, I haven't seen anybody mention what most people remember as the biggest noise in early kid's TV: Howdy Doody. Trivia: the name was based on country jargon for "How do you do."
I never much cared for Howdy Doody, but liked most other TV. TV stations didn't crank up until 10 a.m. or so, but I looked forward to the time before then, so I could compare test patterns.
It was really easy to get tickets for different shows in the early '50s--a lot were live, or filmed and produced in New York. I remember them broadcasting a movie in one TV studio (WOR, I think--my dad worked at 1440 Broadway)--they actually had a camera pointed at a movie screen.
I won a Schwinn bike (later stolen) on the Pat Michael show--she was a pretty young thing whose claim to fame was a character she drew to tell stories about "Wilma the Pigeon."
For many of my single-digit birthdays I got to be on "Junior Carnival," a kid's show on WATV (Channel 13--the TV station of radio's WAAT) whose studios were in Newark, NJ. To finally give this a transit spin, this meant I got to ride on the old (pre-K class) Newark Extension cars on the H&M.
If you ever rode those cars on the now-PATH line to Newark, you would instantly have understood two things: (1) why their successors, the K class cars, were the first regular order air conditioned rapid transit cars in the U.S. (maybe the world) and (2) why the environmental movement grew. The stink going running alongside the Hackensack(?) River and the pretty colors of the pipes pumping raw chemical waste into said river were incredible.
I remember those cars, if they were clean you could read Pennsylvania Railroad on their sides, and the conductor collected money between Harrison and Journal Square. I think the fare from NYC to NWK was 35 cents each way
Those are the MP-38's, NOT the Black Cars, correct? The ones that looked like the LIRR Ping Pong/Owl/MP-54 cars except they had a little headlamp up front and a very narrow clerestory deck in their roofs.
I believe those were the ones involved in the 1942 wreck at Exchange Place.
I never rode a Black Car, but DID see a few of them (400 series) painted yellow as Work Motors around the PATH system back in the late 60s and 70s. On my first trip to PATH (December 27, 1969), there was a four-car train of them sitting on the inside track at the old Hudson Terminal. The Newark train was a PA-1 but I did get a K-class train on the way back, from Journal Square to Hoboken to 33rd Street.
Wayne
Right. AFAIK the Black Cars never went to Newark, at least not regularly. Since it was a joint PRR-H&M service, some cars had the H&M logo, some the PRR logo.
I didn't vare much for the K class--to NYCTA-influenced plain vanilla. But I like the PA-1s--they remind me of the Bluebird.
Here's one thats pretty old - "TerryToon Circus" with Claude Kirschner and Clowney (a puppet). It was on from 7 to 7:30 and ended with a message that it was time for all good boys and girls to go to bed - and my mom made me do it! (still liked the show)
I remember that one. How 'bout Tommy 7? The theme song started:
East side, west side,
All around the town,
The kids watch Tommy Seven,
Their favorite TV clown...
A product called "Cocoa-Marsh" was a sponsor (it was a liquid like Bosco or Hershey's for making chocolate milk).
Speaking of chocolate syrup, Ovaltine was a sponser on one of the shows mentioned, I think Capt. Jack. I remember a jar of it being lowered on a string during a break. Does anyone remember when Capt. Jack got a new ship?
McNits---Only better. I loved Cocoa Marsh, put in my milk all the time. It drove my Mother made until the Dentist said it was ok. I then could have all the Cocoa Marsh I wanted. There was a show with a woman host named Pat Michael, and her sponsor was Cocoa Marsh. It was around 1950 or 1951.
Just thought of another REAL old saturday morning show - "Early Bird Cartoons". The cartoons were black and white, and had NO SOUND! They just played this lively, crazy kind of music during the 'toons. Must have been around the late 50's early 60's. Anybody watch this one?
Yeah, I remember those cartoons---a lot of them had Farmer Brown, )or Green or Gray) with about 17 million mice running arond his farm and eating all of his cheese and driving the cat crazy.
I remember it. Most of the cartoons were cat & mouse, sort of like an early version of Tom & Jerry. No sound.
Felix the Cat was on Channel 5. It began (?) on a show called "Felix and the Wizard" because it also featured cartoons with the "Wizard of Oz" characters. I forget the host's name, but he had a contest known as "mystery lines" in which people sent in 5 lines on a piece of paper and requested a subject that he tun the lines into a drawing of. If he couldn't do it, the letter writer won a prize. He also had this papier mache head that he taught viewers to make. As I said, his name escapes me; he wasn't nearly as famous as Channel 5's other kid-show hosts, Sandy Becker and Sonny Fox.
As for Astro Boy, Gigantor, 8th Man and Speed Racer, they didn't have hosts. They filled a half-hour each, just the cartoons plus commercials.
"Officer" Joe Bolton may have done other shows besides the Stooges and Dick Tracy, but those are the ones I'm sure about. As noted elsewhere, "Captain" Jack McCarthy did the Popeye show. At the end of the show, he would retire "below deck" and turn on a TV monitor featuring the next show - typically a Hanna-Barbera cartoon such as Huckleberry Hound or Yogi Bear (the exact show depending on the day of the week). Then the camera would come in for a close-up of the screen, and they would switch to a full-screen version of the show in question.
Thanks Dan. Your post sure does bring back memories. While we're at old TV shows, I remember one called "UltraMan" which was a Japanese series that -- if I am right -- was made by the same people that produced those "Godzilla" movies of the 60's and 70's. I recall the hero was some kind of cop or military figure who's true identity was that of some alien being (his suit looked like scuba-gear painted silver) who saved mankind (or Tokyo, more likely) from some weird and usually nasty monster. I recall he had the ability to go from a normal-sized man to that of a giant with some kind of wand-like device. Am I accurate here, anybody?
I also seem to recall that the dubbing process for that show was atrociously bad.
SubDude
I was on Sonny Fox's Wonderama when I was seven years old. I recall telling him about a book I had just read (no, it wasn't Change at Ozone Park). However (back on topic!), we did get to the studio via Ozone Park, since we lived in Howard Beach at the time. It was a nice R1-9 trip on the HH to the A. [Hey -- they weren't color-coded then!]
10/30/99
DAVID PIRMANN,
Please don't blow a gasket! I know we started discussing about the Manhattan Beach branch but all of a sudden it got out of hand with some talk of some 3 Stooges movies. You see Dave,we're just a bunch of guys fighting off middle age so we couldn't help but reminice about the "good old days". Don't worry Dave,it will blow over shortly and we will go back to discussing R-68's,Acela,Wheel detectors and all those goodies that make railfaning something to live for. We couldn't help discussing about Captain Jack McCarthy,Joe Bolton rather than hair loss,bifocals,impotence and those things that make middle age a regular picnic. We all apologize and didn't mean to abuse your web site.
BTW-ANYBODY REMEMBER CRUSADER RABBIT,CLUTCH CARGO AND ANDY DEVINE WITH HIS SIDE KICKS FROGGY AND MIDNIGHT THE CAT ???
Bill Newkirk
Crusader the Rabbit was my absolute favorite. It was the first "made for TV" cartoon. I picked up two of the "Crusades" on videotape and was surprised by how almost non-existent the animation.
My favorite of the series (which I don't have on tape) was the "Chillblain Castle" epsiodes, withthe glacier coming down the castle stairs. And of course I remember the narrator, the droll Edward Everett Horton.
Yes, and I recall Smiling Andy, and the boy kids picked up on "pluck your magic twanger, froggy," but our parents apparently didn't.
Hey Bill!
I think you're finally starting to lose it! Assuming that you had it to begin with. BTW, remember on Crusader Rabbit the recipe for dehydrated water? On the box the directions said: Just add water!
Mike H
Here's a great site for old cartoons: the Toon tracker Home page at http://ftp.wi.net/~rkurer/
Wasn't Clutch Cargo the show where the character faces were a painted picture or background and there were real lips some how stuck into the picture, so the lips were real but the face was painted/drawn? I don't know if Clutch rode the subways, probably not.
"Plunk your magic twanger, Froggie", if I recall, was a common line by Andy (I've got a gang) Devine.
No, mystery lines was done by Sandy Becker. He also had characters like Catch Max (where viewers had to identify the time "Max" creeped across the screen) and Norton Nork.
Do you remember Sandy Becker's character K. Lastima?
That was the other one I forgot. Great call!!!
When I was a kid, I used to mimic K. Lastima by using one of my father's "real" cigars (unlit of course). He would have a fit when he saw what I was doing with his cigars!
Yep! I remember that. I found out later on that "Que Lastima" is Spanish for "What a shame". (couldn't do the acentos over the first "a", font wouldn't let me! ¡Que Lastima!
Wayne
Ah, yes, good old Sandy's Street on Channel 5. There was Sinister Simon, Ecops from the planet Zircon, plus a Roger Ramjet (voice of Gary Owens) cartoon thrown in the mix, along with a few Looney Tunes cartoons. Wasn't the kid named Tim Moriarty?
Ah yes, Gloria Oakon. Sponsored by Arnold "Brick Oven" Bread. Part of "Three [later Four] Star News". I don't think she knew much about meteorology, but she did leave an impression. The news show her segment was part of was also unique in that it had separate sections, with different newscasters, for world, national, and local news. And, to bing the subject back to transit, I do believe there was a clip of a subway train shown as part of the intro for the local news segment. No, I'm not positive about that. Interesting, though, that today's hour-plus newscasts don't have that kind of logical segmentation.
Hey, Wayne, I suffer from a similar problem. It's called Floyd's Syndrome and it comes from having watched too much Uncle Floyd back in the 70's. (That guy Floyd Vivino was a real comic genius -- paving the way for current wackos like Howard Stern, etc.) I think some of his shows are now available on home video.
Doug aka BMTman
BTW, does anyone know whether or not the Sheepshead or Coney Island tracks had dog racing tournaments?
I can't categorically say no, but I doubt it. Most states ban dog racing and New York has for as long as I know.
I'm surprised capital-"L" Liberal Massachusetts is one of the few that permits it.
As to the black community near the Sheephead Bay Race track, it is interesting, in this era in which (real estate people tell us) a house turns over every 7 years, that identifiable community last so long.
Babylon Village has a black community which traces back to employees of the Argyle Hotel, gone almost a century, which still supports two churches. Their ancestors also started the first black professional baseball team.
Arizona has Dog Raceing, or at least they did in 86
[Actually, there is a "living remnant" of the former Sheepshead Bay Race Track: the small but evident black community within the neighborhood are mostly direct descendents of former jockeys.]
The community is "evident" because they're all less than five feet tall :-)
The Manhattan Beach LIRR line left what is now the Bay Ridge Branch (originally the whole thing was Manhattan Beach RR) east of the Brighton Line between H and I, as Mark said, though the current line there never was operated by the South Brooklyn.
Until the grade crossing elimination in the "aughts" the Manhattan Beach Line ran at a varying distance from the Brighton Line, sometimes almost beside it, sometimes as far east as about current E.18 Street.
When the grade crossing project came in, it was decided to take advantages of the economy of putting the Manhattan Beach on the same structure, so from about 1907 until the tracks were torn up (193x) the Manhattan Beach were a kind of 5th and 6th track on the Brighton Line from about Avenue I to almost Shee[shead Bay.
[ Until the grade crossing elimination in the "aughts" the Manhattan Beach Line ran at a varying distance from the Brighton Line,
sometimes almost beside it, sometimes as far east as about current E.18 Street. ]
I wonder if that's why E. 18 St. is so much wider than the other side streets in the vacinity of Neck Rd. (actually Gravesend Neck Road).
As for remnants of the racetrack, as I had commented previously, in the 1950s some foundations were visible in some vacant lots. They disappeared when the lots were built on. I believe they were all gone by 1960.
-- Ed Sachs
((( As per Paul Matus suggestion: The room is dimly
lit. The air is electric, as just 2 minutes ago all
the spotlights short circuited. The smoke is
lifting as I face the audience. One person vomits, but I try to ignore the smell )))
Okay guys,now I'm getting somewhere. The Manhattan
Beach Branch was originally distinct from the
Brighton Tracks. And later was added on to the 4 track structure. ( Was it double decked?? just a joke )
I just found a picture on page 121 in Merlis's book
Welcome Back to Brooklyn of the LIRR tracks crossing
Coney Island Avenue at Ave. H at grade level.
Coney Island Avenue has two sets of Trolley tracks
and the two sets of LIRR tracks are crossing at
right angles ( which means the tracks are
perpendicular, which comes from the definition of
perpendicular lines ---oh sorry, I thought I was
tutoring ) If the LIRR was at grade level at this
point in time, now I can see how it could have sent
a branch off toward Sheepshead Bay.
(Of course we all know that the Bay Ridge Branch
was later put into its current below grade cut,
because a place was needed to throw old
refrigerators and tires and bodies.... sorry again )
Now, when the two lines were sort of merged, was the
Ave X spur the one that went both to the race track
and to Manhattan Beach, or was there a separate spur
to Manhattan Beach further South.
((( The room dims totally out, as the drunken dinner
guests begin throwing pies at each other )))
The Avenue X Spur was from Brighton to the Race Track Only.
There was no way for Brighton trains to get to Manhattan Beach after the grade crossing elimination.
10/27/99
Since I am already familar with the Manhattan Beach line as discussed here I will add a question.
On the current Bay Ridge tracks east of the Brighton line,set a few yards back is some sort of concrete "foundation" or so it seems. Could this be the remains of a signal tower for the this junction ?
Bill Newkirk
That's probable, since that's where the turnout was for Manhattan Beach, but I don't know for sure.
Well, some brave souls are going to attempt a Bay Ridge Branch Walking Tour sometime next month.
Doug aka BMTman
This link to Bob Andersen's LIRR history page should help you-
http://www.lirrhistory.com/nymbry.html
I was reading the Line by Line section, and the Park Place station on the IRT 2/3 was described as being under the IND 8th Ave line. From what I can see on the track maps, the opposite is true. Which is correct, please?
The track maps are not to scale, obviously. The Park Place IRT station is under the IND at that point.
-Dave
Thanks.
Just a question---anyway that I could have known which was correct without asking?---I just wasn't sure which source was more reliable. I detect, hopefully in error, a bit of condescension in your reply.
I wasn't meaning to be condescending. I thought it was pretty clear from the track maps that they weren't to scale (for instance, look at the various sizes of platforms, distance between stations, etc). I am not sure if the only over/under mistake on the track maps is the one at Park Place. If it is maybe you could bring it to the attention of Peter Dougherty and help him in his project. (By the way, the track maps on the site are several "generations" old and the primary source should be considered Pete's Tracks of the New York City Subway.)
As for how you could have really known: there's no way. Think of it this way, if you were to find two places on this site with conflicting information (bound to happen), one place is probably incorrect, but you won't find a large statement on the correct place saying "I'm correct". :-)
Don't get me wrong, I just assumed, (there's that bad word again) that since many of those who contribute to this site are so much more knowledgeable than I am, that I couldn't have possibly found an error on the track map, let alone anywhere on the site. I view much of the info herein as not too far removed from some sort of "scripture" (no offense intended to anyone). I apologize for being accusatory toward you and ofr being thin-skinned. You have a great site here.
As I remarked in my intro to the errors Alan Glick found in "The Malbone Street Wreck" (at rapidtransit.net) "even meticulous authors find errors of fact creeping into their work."
That includes nycsubway.org. For sure it includes my own writings.
Even comptemporary sources (especially newspapers) have significant errors, to try to give as much detail as possible as soon as possible.
Look at The New York Times article on this site concerning Malbone Street. Dave did exactly the right thing to reprint the article exactly as it was written, but if you leaned on it for definitive research (and looked no further) you'd get some of the principal facts of the wreck wrong.
Especially, the article says over and over that almost noone in the first car survived, while the fact is probably everyone in the first car survived.
Compared to that, a track map error isn't much.
The only time errors really bug me is when they're careless or (for want of a better word) reckless.
The only parts of BU #726 that were damaged were the front left corner of the cowl and the rear gate area. The third car was where the greatest loss of life occurred - BU Trailer #100. Trailer #80 was demolished as well, also with loss of life.
I was on the Shuttle on Wednesday. They have done a nice job with it. I did not recognize Park Place station, its former island platform is a memory. I was surprised to see Botanic Garden as an underground station and the arched brick tunnel is fully illuminated with shaded compact flourescent bulbs set close together. Once at Prospect Park, I took a look up the unused track towards the wreck sight, and in my mind I could hear the sighs of ghosts and a faint whistle.
Wayne
[The third car was where the greatest loss of life occurred - BU Trailer #100. Trailer #80 was demolished as well, also with loss of life.]
I got a chuckle out of a picture in Brian Cudahy's new book. It showed the soon-to-be scrapped wreck of #80 back in the yards, with the sign "Not in Service" hanging on its front. Indeed not.
10/28/99
Is it unusual that the two cars that received the greatest loss of life and damage were trailers?
Bill Newkirk
According to Cudahy's book that was a major factor in the wreck. Had the trailers not been placed adjacent to each other, in violation of the rules, the accident might never have happened.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In his book he implied it wouldn't have been as deadly as the motored cars are much heavier. Remember the first car did derail and that had a motor. However that is his opinion. From what he writes about what happened, how some cars were sliced by the tunnel portal I think it would have been as deadly no matter what the car configuration, even if there were no trailers. Lets face it, for a comparison, I wouldn't want to hit a brick wall whether I was driving a VW Beetle or a Cadillac Sedan de Ville, especially if both cars were made of wood!!!
The point was (and I'm speaking from independent research, not Cudahy's book) that the impact of the crash lowered the train's speed substantially, so that the stabilizing influence of a heavier and (importantly) less top-heavy third car would have mitigated the severity of the wreck.
This is not just Cudahy's opinion or mine--this was an important, though not conclusive (because it's after the fact), finding of contemporary crash investigations.
My opinion is that the second car would still have sustained damage because of the derailing of the first car, but there is a significant possibility the third car would have held the rails.
So there would still have been a memorable accident, but not the worst in rapid transit history.
If there's a soul here who hasn't seen it, see my review of the book, with the errata from Alan Glick, and an added capsule review by Anon_e_mouse.
An interesting point I was wondering about today is if Luciano (or Lewis) was unfamiliar with the Brighton Line, how did he know that Consumer's Park was not a regularly scheduled stop?
Good point.
Cudahy shrugs off the possibility that Luciano might have had instruction at all on the Brighton Line. My own notes show a snippet of trial testimony that Luciano said that he had made "only" two trips on the Brighton. Two is a lot more than none.
If Luciano was lying at trial (i.e., couched by BRT attorneys) it is fair to speculate how that lie could have served the defense.
Speaking of those tunnels, the tunnel that the shuttle uses now looks wide enough for two tracks. Did it have two tracks before Prospect Park was expanded to four tracks and the connection to DeKalb was eventually made?
Speaking of those tunnels, the tunnel that the shuttle uses now looks wide enough for two tracks. Did it have two tracks before Prospect Park was expanded to four tracks and the connection to DeKalb was eventually made?
Yes. And at the time of the wreck, the motorman could have seen the lights of Prospect Park station through that tunnel, further obscuring the fact that the fatal cruve was out of sight.
Yes, it's beneath the IND even though it came first (1917). Notice how the IRT line ramps down from Chambers Street then makes the hard left into Park Place. The escalator link to the street at the east end of Park Place station is pretty long too.
Wayne
Again, in the Building the New York Subway Section of this site, section one within that section, there is a picture at what is labeled Spring Street, where it really appears that the photographer is standing on a track with 2 additional tracks to either side. Is there any evidence there was ever a fifth track there, or am I tricked by something in the photo?
You're probabaly looking at the spot where the Spring Street station curves. There's no track there, just a trackway. Don't know if they ever planned to have a lay-up in there.
Wayne
Now you've got me thinking I'm crazy---when you have a chance, please look under Building The NY Subway, Chapter 1, The Route of the
Road: Passenger Stations and Tracks, and scroll down to where the heading reads Brooklyn Route. Three photos follow, the one on the left says Spring St. station Interior. When that photo is enlarged, it certainly looks like 5 tracks to me.
The center track at Spring Street has a very sketchy history. It was built as part of the first subway and connected to the northbound express track at its north end and the southbound express track at its south end. (Similar to the center track at 145 St-Lenox).
There are early reports of the track being in service or at least being in existence, it was probably removed before World War II. It was in an arkward location at best not really near any terminals and requiring a backup move to enter which may explain its non-use.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That tells me that at least for a time it existed, which means I'm not crazy. Thank You.
Unless my memory has completely collapsed, the extra track space at Spring Street still had rails in it and looked usable at least through the 1950s and perhaps into the mid-1960s.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Any info on lunchtime tours or talks? MTA used to have them once in a while - I recall one at Grand Central.
IIRC, these were sponsored by the Transit Museum. Now that the TM has returned to being MTA's stepchild, at least as far as access to interesting places is concerned, the mini-tours and lectures have been suspended. Perhaps once King Rudy is no longer in office they will resume.
(Disclaimer: the dislike of Hizzoner the Mayor expressed above is totally restricted to his actions related to almost everything.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi. First I want to say that as a railway and public transport electrification advocate myself, that the subway system is my favourite the world over. I have been on plenty of systems, and so far as I am concerned, no one holds a candle to the MTA in the Big Apple! This system holds many world records as being the largest, longest, unique, etc. I have even put in my application as train operator (train driver or 'motorman' for this system)!
Ther was a video that came out a number of years ago of a series called 'Big City Metro'. I believe it was a twelve episode series running about 28 minutes each on the various selected underground railway systems. I had recorded (in EP mode) and have a ratty poor copy of the episode of the NYCTA (now MTA). Unfortunately, just as I was about to order a good copy for myself, the rights had run out in obtaining a copy of this video! This needless to say was quite frustrating for me, as now, I can't get a good copy! If there be anyone out there who either has a copy and that can dub off a copy for me (for my own personal use, so there would be no violation of copyright law) or who might know of some obscure place I still can order one, I sure would like to know! Please if you should know of ANY info, PLEASE do pass it on to me! I would really like to get a GOOD copy of this video.
I should also state that I am trying to start a non-profit educational and advocacy organisation called ITEM (Int'l Transport Electrification Movement) I may already have people for the board. but I need advise (since that all means of learning how to establish non-profit organisations in San Francisco are reserved for those people who are up to their 24. birthday! Talk about age discrimination!) on the technicalities on how to get a non-profit organisation officially started. I have an email address, and currently working on a website. The mission of this organisation would be fourfold: 1. To educate the general public of the importance of moving away from fossilised fuels as the means of energy. 2. To encourage and put pressure upon railway and public transport entities to persue electrification. 3. To encourage rolling stock manufactures and designers for the responsible design of passenger rolling stock, i.e. having sufficient visibility factor, that is to say, CLEAR (untinted) windows, and likewise headend viewing capabiliies for the riding public, something that these two aspects has been ignored like a cancer for the past half decade or so. 4. The responsible, i.e. environmentally friendly production of electricity, that is to say, to avoid the use of fossil fuels or the use of the atom in the production of electricity. If you agree with any or all these four goals, perhaps you would be interested in joining this organisation yourself. Who knows, perhaps we can stem the tide of irresponsible transport design and planning.
Thanks for your trouble.
Peter
Peter, I think that you could order it from A&E or Discovery Channel. Whoever did the the videos, Check out their web sites, or their retail stores. I think that there is one at GCT, and maybe you can order it from them-Bob
I assume you are referring to the European series Great Metros of the World. They were released in this country by International Video Network, on six tapes, two episodes each. Dave hasn't listed them in the video section of this website (I never looked before tonight to see if he had so I'll take the 20 lashes for not sending him the information), so I'll list them here, including UPC and ISBN:
New York & Toronto, UPC 28048 03001, ISBN 0-929756-72-X
Tokyo & Seoul, UPC 28048 03101, ISBN 0-929756-73-8
Washington, D.C. & San Francisco, UPC 28048 03201, ISBN 0-929756-74-6
Beijing & Hong Kong, UPC 28048 03301, ISBN 0-929756-75-4
London & Calcutta, UPC 28048 03401, ISBN 0-929756-76-2
Madrid & Berlin, UPC 28048 03501, ISBN 0-929756-77-0
The Transit Museum Shops carried the entire series at one time. I've seen copies at train shows within the past couple of months, and you might have some luck going through Amazon.com (go to the bibliography page on this website and link through there - when you buy from Amazon through that link you help support this website), barnesandnoble.com, abebooks.com, or bibliofind.com. I realize the last two are book-only sites, but they have want lists and some of the dealers who list there also carry videos.
Good luck in your search!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If for some reason you are unable to find that video, you might also want to consider the video "Subway" made by A&E that runs about an hour and costs $20.00. It should be available at A&E, the Discovery Channel store and the NY Transit Museum. You also may want to consider the video "New York Underground", part of the American Experience series, by PBS, that costs (I think) 30.00.
Or you may want to look at these.
--Mark
You can also order the A&E Subway tape from the Trolley Museum of New York by clicking here: http://www.icatmall.com/tmny/.
New Jersey Transit has issued new schedules with the effective date of October 31,1999. The news is that the schedules are now color coded to the NJT map. They have a color band at the top and the bottom which makes then stand out quite nicely from other commuter rail schedules.
The colors are as follows:
Morris & Essex Lines - Green
inc Morristown Line,Gladstone Branch,Montclair Branch
Main Line/Bergen County Line - Yellow
Boonton Line - Brown
inc Boonton Line,Montclair Branch
Pascack Valley Line - Purple
Atlantic City Line - Dark Blue
Raritan Valley Line - Orange
Northeast Corridor Line - Red
North Jersey Coast Line - Light Blue
Note that the Montclair Branch now appears in both the Morris & Essex and Boonton Line Timetables.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Metro North is color codes: Red for New Haven Line, Green for Hudson Line and Blue for Harlem Line. THe LIRR is also color coded- each line has it's color as shown on LIRR Maps (and on the Railroad side of The Map.) Regionally- SEPTA is also color coded. NJT is ctaching up to the rest of the region's commuter railroads.
Your right subway-buff but the current MN and LIRR schedules use a two color system;i.e.red ink on white paper. The new NJT Rail Schedules use black ink on whtie paper with a third color band added.
It gives them quite a classy look.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In today's Inquirer, there was an article about Norfolk Southern's new opposition to the building of the Schuylkill Valley Metro on tracks it has recently acquired.
The 62 mile line from Center City to Reading would have a connection to it from a King of Prussia spur(an area which contains the nation's second largest mall and has busloads, busloads and more busloads of people coming in and out daily).
NS says it won't allow construction of the line past Norristown which ,if accepted, would be redundant as you have the R6 taking the same route across ther river.
Because of the cost, NS's opposition and the eventuality of NIMBY's, I doubt this thing will ever live to see the light of day.
BTW, we finally got a look at the "bastard" suburban rail plan, the Cross County Metro, which would travel from Morrisville, Bucks County to Glenloch, Chester County, never entering the city and itself sharing tracks with a planned spur off the NHSL to King of Prussia(independent of the SVM).
This is the online edition.
There is a public hearing tommorow in east falls and next week in Reading, if anyone is interested.
I'm not sure of what you're saying about the R6. NS is concerned about the freight trackage that the SV Metro is proposing to either use or share the R/W. This is the trackage northwest of Norristown which is freight only. R6 only shares its tracks with freights from Norristown down to just north of Conshohocken, where there is a connection with the old Trenton Cutoff line. (By the way, the Cutoff is the likely route of a rail Cross County Metro.)
Both NS and CSX will prove to be bad neighbors. Folks might have thought Conrail was an unwilling partner in many ventures involving transit, but NS and CSX will be worse. NS's opposition to the SV Metro is not surprising given the potential of the ex-Reading line. This is one reason why I personally have always thought that commuter rail was the way to go (as opposed to light rail) since commuter can share the track more readily. As the Inquirer noted, light rail will be more expensive since separate trackage will be needed. And NS still opposes since it wants a clear R/W.
I don't think NIMBY's will be much of a problem on this line. Much of it is far enough away from residential and the unbearable traffic on US 422 every day will lead many to seek some sort of relief. There was some local opposition to the Route 100 extension to King of Prussia, but this can probably be overcome. Dealing with NS will prove to be a far bigger difficulty for SEPTA.
Keep in mind that, in addition to the King of Prussia "Sprawl", the SV Metro serves Reading and will terminate in Wyomissing at the back door of the VF Outlet Center. If you've ever been there and seen the number of cars and charter buses in the vast parking lots, you'd see how much value some sort of transit would have here. At the other end, SEPTA is desparately trying to get the line on-street access to Center City Phila and had it passing the Broad/Spring Garden baseball stadium site (now no longer being considered). This makes little sense to me given the enormous investment in and capacity of the Commuter Tunnel for such a line.
I think the Cross County has less of a chance, given the railroad problems and a greater degree of NIMBY opposition.
Where did the old trackage run that carried the RDC's & earlier passenger trains to Reading? Wasn't the freight on the South and passenger on the North of the Schuylkill? What about restoring the old abandoned rails? (Or has that all gone to frieght now?)
Didn't the old Reading expresses completely bypass Norristown and run on what's now the freight line?
I guess we should clarify directions first. The Schuylkill River runs on a northwest/southeast bearing once it passes Center City Phila, for the most part (not counting a couple of 's' curves in Fairmount Park). I think of the east and west sides, not the north and south sides, but let's go on.
From about Roosevelt Blvd on to Norristown, the ex-Reading had the electrified (now R6) trackage on the east side of the river with a freight only line on the west side, from Falls Yard (just shy of City Ave, alongside the Schuylkill Expressway). This is still the case, although when Conrail came along, freight operation on the east side pretty much dried up, with the exception of locals to the old Weyerhauser plant in Miquon. Freights do pick up north of Conshohocken, where the connection to the old Pennsy Trenton Cutoff exists.
North/west of Norristown, the east side line crosses the river, almost immediately out of the old DeKalb Street station (now the Norristown Transportation Center), and joins the west side line, just past the old Abrams Yard in Bridgeport. The electrified line turns northeast as a single track and parallels Markley Street in Norristown, making two more stops (Main Street and Elm Street). This is the route of R6. The combined line follows the Schuylkill River on the west side up through Phoenixville and crosses the river north/west of there, remaining on the east side on up through to Reading. This is the proposed SV Metro route now controlled by Norfolk Southern.
In Reading days, RDC runs out of Reading Terminal to the Lines' namesake town used the R6 trackage through Norristown, then switched across the river onto the combined line. The trains usually operated as expresses, making stops only at North Broad, Wissahickon and DeKalb Street Norristown, then all stops past there (if I recall correctly). I also recall a 10 AM daily train out of Reading Terminal which got to DeKalb Street at 10:33, not bad for this line. In my remembrance Reading trains (to the town, that is) did not bypass DeKalb Street.
During the Bicentennial celebration (or lack thereof), SEPTA offered a quick way to Valley Forge Park using the Reading trains. These stopped at Port Kennedy, a stone's throw from Valley Forge. Some work was done at Port Kennedy for this service. If I recall correctly, there may have been extra trains which ran Reading Terminal-Port Kennedy also, but someone may know better about this.
As far as I know, the rails are still in place and nothing is abandoned. In some places, the line above Abrams has been single-tracked, but it remains a busy line. In several places where one can see this line from nearby US 422 (especially in the Pottstown area and between Pottstown and Reading), it was a 3-track line and remains as such in several of these locations.
I read recently that the Archer Avenue subway was tunneled all the way to Merrick Blvd. Since I'm assuming there's no track that far, why weren't trains planned to be sent down that far in the beginning?
The current upper-level tunnel turns south from Archer Avenue and continues along (I think) 160th Street as far as South Road, where it ends.
Wayne
For about a month now, it seems the station department has been
working to improve the cardio-vascular fitness of passengers
^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^Hcustomers who use the west set of escalators at
Lexington Ave/53 St IND station. I generally come through there
around 3-4 in the afternoon, and consistently both escalators are
stopped and huffing and puffing passengers have to walk up that
long, steep grade.
Does anyone know what's going on? Last week, the only time there
was a functioning up escalator, I got on and it stopped halfway
up. Today both were down and the transit police were in the process
of restarting them. These escalators were both replaced by
contractors last year.
Jeff,
Totally out of curiosity, are you using Lynx? If not, may I ask what web browser and platform you are using? Thanks.
Rich
Why in the world would you be curious about what browser I
used? Is it the presence of the ^H characters? That's an
old USENET joke.
OK, nevermind. I've never seen that before - never spent much time on USENET. Sorry if I sounded nosey.
NYCTA has yet to master the technology of the escalator. One has to wonder about the learning curve involved, as the danged things have been around for decades. Note that most shopping malls have multiple escalators, and they're seldom if ever out of service when the malls are open. You'd think the subway could do as well (sigh).
The TA is not the only one who can t master elevators, earlier this month when I was at Cleveland Airport half of their escalators were not running, and those that worked, went down, then when I got to LAX the same thing. Funny both were in Continental s Terminals
We in Baltimore have the same problem, specifically with the very deep Charles Center station. The escalators are shut down for maintenance one at a time about every three months. Invariably, when the normal "up" escalator is out the other one is not reversed. There is an elevator on the west end, as well as an extra mezzanine; but the east end has only one long rise and becomes Coronary City during maintenance time.
Depends on who is the Station Agent - most will reverse the remaining escalator to the UP direction (to Mez or street) since down is easier than up. Some don't (maybe they should go back to the buses), but most do - the same "deep" also extends to Lexington Market and State Center as well.
I use Charles Center every day...no down escalator has ever been reversed. I happen to know for a fact that the station manager, a lady with the initials R.S., is a dingbat, as I used to work in the MTA's information center.
I hope there are stairs in it's place, or better yet, elevators. Escalators are steeper than stairs, and their handrails aren't as convenient. My school's escalators aren't very reliable, so I have experience.
This is 18 Street-Kingstunnel, lots of other trains here
The next stop will be 36 Street
This Z train will be running local to Continental Avenue.
Speaking of stairs..what are the longest set of stairs in the system where there isn't either an escalator or eelvator available? I know the stairs from the 4th Ave BMT to the F at 4th ave are pretty long (and steep..) I actually did that once (dont ask why..), and started thinking that NYCT could make a fortune renting O2 masks at the top...
They're putting escalators in schools? No wonder people complain about the wasted money! Those of us who are old and fat envy you younger folks your health and could probably use the climb ourselves (although with my arthritis I confess to preferring escalators myself). For the schools to provide escalators when you all are capable of climbing the stairs is absurd. (Elevators for the handicapped are another story - those I agree with, although there are other ways around that problem too. When I was wheelchair-bound for a year as a child, they simply assigned me to a class that was on the first floor. When I needed to participate in something that was on another floor, either the activity came to my classroom or other students carried me.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I beleive the city put escalators in John F. Kennedy High School when it was built over 25 years ago. Then the city went bankrupt a few years later. If they had used cheaper-to-build stairs, maybe Abe Beame would have been a two-term mayor.
The new Stuyvesant High School on Chambers Street has elevators as well. I attended the old school on 15th Street where the staircases were falling apart. There was an manned operator elevator in the building, but it was only for teachers, custodial workers or students with a doctors note who couldn't walk the steps.
Actually, these days you can get an elevator pass either with a doctor's note or by working as a volunteer in some office. All elevators are automated.
RUE4the pass.
Now that you mention it, I did work in one of the offices when I was a freshman and got to ride the elevator once or twice. They gave me a pass to show the operator. That elevator was the old fashioned type which never stopped exactly on the floor, you had a step either up or down.
Yeah, I went to Stuyvesant too -- you could occassionally sneak onto the elevator and use it between classes, when there was less of a chance to run into any teachers, while the security guards were something of a joke; we used to see how long it took them to get downstairs after punching the little red button off the right side of the stage that cut off all the lights in the auditorium.
I went to Madison(anyone else) in the 50 s . I used to work for the Guidence Counsellor during my lunch(horrible Cafas) so I had a early lunch pass, and Got to ride the elevator
The school is 10 stories high, climbing that many stairs is insane. There are elevators to conform to ADA requirements.
RUE4the rise.
10/27/99
Ever notice that all escalators on the TA move slower than escaltors on LIRR,Metro North as well as the private sector? Maybe they're afraid of lawsuits? Possibly,these are the only escalators (TA) I know that have audio instructions playing continiously so people don't injure themselves and sue.
Whenever escalators are out of service bear in mind that vandals are probably pushing the emergency stop buttons.
Bill Newkirk
[escalators on the TA move slower than escalators on LIRR, Metro North]
The TA must have installed Grade Timers on their escalators as well, in keeping with the speed restrictions on the rest of the system. LOL
Whenever escalators are out of service bear in mind that vandals are probably pushing the
emergency stop buttons.
That is generally my guess too. However, I was aboard an escalator
when it stopped and I did not see anyone in the vicinity of
the stop buttons on either end.
Is there anyone here from customer service or stations who
knows anything about this?
Perhaps someone threw a gum wrapper or some other piece of garbage and it messed up the mechanism.
I just read in the LA papers that the amount of people who are obese has hit an alarming rate, and has increased by 20% in the past ten years. Climbing up the stairs isn't the worst thing in the world, and it is a very good form of exercise. But I do agree that probably some smart apple gummed up the works. I saw a few of those trouble maker types in the subway when I was in New York last August. A good swift kick in the &%$*#@@ might do the trick.
Next stop on the Sea Beach is Avenue U.
Swift kicks in the ass are not good. The best penalty is forcing the person stuffing crap in the mechanism to work out on a stair climber for a whole work day or something, and have them pay for the gym time.
This is Florida
The next stop on this X train WILL BE Civic Center.
10/28/99
A swift kick in the ass are defintely not good. You can seriously injure your foot that way!!
The best form of punishment is giving the dummy a box of Brillo pads and have him shine the third rails !!
Bill Newkirk
No, but then you have to clean out the carcass. I was looking for punishments that fit the crime.
It's part of the new "Get Fit New York" program being sponsored in part by MTA NYC Transit. During the summer, as you well know, the MTA was leasing space in various stations of the Lexington Ave line for use as saunas. In some cases, they were VERY effective.
--Mark
I am looking for photographs of subway station walls, the wall that has the name of the stop on it. I would like to recreate three of them for a theatrical production I am producing. Any idea where I can find pictures like this. I want my recreations to be as real looking as possible.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks!
Well you came to the right place but you haven't looked far enough yet. Try New York Subway: Line by Line. Just about every station has a photograph showing what the walls and platforms look like.
Enjoy,
Dave
I have a couple at www.palter.org/~subway/subway1, they are not very
good shots and they are pretty old, late 70's early 80's.
Bill
Just follow Dave Pirmann's link *(described in the other response)* to the Line-By-Line page(s).
Any picture that has my name on it, feel free to use it.
Wayne Whitehorne
What is the theatrical production, out of curiousity?
I believe, if you are in the NY area, that the NY Transit Museum store in Grand Central Terminal has postcards of the various mosaics. Also, I believe there is a book of the mosaics, which the store may carry
Yes, there is a book; the last time I was at the TM store in the museum itself they had quite a few copies. I've also seen it offered in the gift shop of the Jewish Museum, of all places.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have read several posts indicating that the J train terminates at Chambers St on weekends, instead of Broad St. This is big news to me since I used the J train to Broad St many years ago. There were many weeks that I had to work seven days a week at 30 Broad St.
In the old days, the Jamaica train always used the outside tracks of the four tracks at Chambers St. Has this changed?
How does the train reverse itself at Chambers? Does it discharge passengers, head toward Fulton and then return on another track for the trip to Jamaica.
What is the best way to Broad St from Chambers St when you have to work on a weekend now?
Take the 4 or 5 from Canal or Chambers to Fulto, Wall, or Bowling Green or the N or R from Canal to Whitehall Street.
Take the 4 or 5 from Canal or Chambers to Fulton, Wall, or Bowling Green or the N or R from Canal to Whitehall Street.
Just change to the 4/5 at Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge. The Fulton St 4/5 station connects to the Fulton St J/M/Z station, and the Broad St J/M/Z station is exactly 1 block from the Wall St 4/5 station.
-Hank
There are two ways the J train can reverse itself at Chambers Street.
1)Change ends in the station and cross over a diamond(double crossover) switch. 2)After crossing over the switch, dicharge passengers and enter a tail track(ends in a bumping block). Change ends and come out on the northbound side. There is a switch in the tail track. Brian
Karl: The J used to run between Jamaica and Broad Street at all times.However effective Sunday,September 30,1990 weekend J service was cut back to Canal Street terminating there on the northbound express track J3 and using the J3 and J4 express tracks between Essex Street and Canal Street.
Effective on December 19,1994 weekend service was extended south to Chambers Street using the local tracks,J1 and J2 between Essex Street and Chambers Street and arriving at Chambers Street on the southbound express track J4. Trains then discharge passengers and relay on the tail track R3/4 south of the station. They then run back into the station on the northbound express J3 and pick up northbound passengers. This is the same procedure used for midday M trains when they terminate at Chambers Street.
It is possible though not usually done to simple reverse ends on J4 in the station and proceed north.
Larry,RedbirdR33
When was the last (or next) time an M train terminated at Chambers in the Mid-day?
Yesterday. The M train has terminated at Chambers during the midday time period since the Manhattan Bridge closure in lat April 1995. In November 95 when normal service resumed the TA did not restore M service south of Chambers. I'm suprised there wasn't a bigger thing made of this. I hate transfering at Canal on days I finish work before 3 PM.
Many people complained when the M service wasn't restored to 9th Avenue middays. I used to work that line. The TA didn't care. They didn't restore that service so they could save money. Brian
Also, you can change ends in the station on J2 track and proceed north.
Larry (and Others):
I heard many years ago that the tail track south of Chambers is only long enough for 6 BMT Standards, which was a reason that the Myrtle-Chambers service only ran with six Standards (later use of two Multi-Sections was the equivalent of six Standards). Franklin-Nassau would have been limited to six cars also, but they had short platforms on the Franklin Avenue section (the section the TA has reduced to short shuttle trains) so were restricted on that end as well.
Has anyone else ever heard that?
BTW, the Subtalk Line-by-Line description of Chambers Street still reads that the "abandoned center island platform could serve trains in either direction," which is true in that both Manhattan Bridge and Williamsburgh Bridge-bound trains were on the same uptown-bound track, since the downtown inner track ends in the tail track. Trains coming into Chambers from either of the bridges could terminate on the inner downtown track before pulling into the tail track to reverse.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Well, those tracks would have to be at least 500 feet long to accomadate the 8 car M trains which use it today.
Ed: The tail track runs from Chambers Street to just north of the IRT at Beekman Street. IT is 620 feet long from the switch point to the bumper as of 1969 and I can't think of any reason why it would have been shortened.I think the reason they ran six car trains on the #10 was simply that they were sufficient to meet the demands of the service and that the BMT had a chronic shortage of cars.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry--
Thanks for the information about the tail track being 620 feet long. It was in the mid-1950s that I had heard it was shorter--for six Standards, that would have meant a bit over 400 feet.
I don't think #10 trains ever ran with more than six cars, though, did they? Even running express, they never seemed that crowded along Broadway.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed: I don't ever recall seeing the #10 with more than six cars, in fact I'll bet that when it ran middays it probably used only three.
I think the rush hour requirements in the 60's were seven-6 car trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I know you guys don't want to hear all this old stuff, but...back in the days of the Standards, IIRC the 10 or M ran 6 car trains during rush hour and 3 car trains other times. The 15 or J ran 8 car trains during rush hour and 6 car trains other times. I have very vague recollections of the 15 or J running 3 car trains, but I think that was overnight on weekends, and then for only a short time period.
The J train only uses the southbound platform on weekends, according to my wife. The center relay tracks are only used by the M during middays becuase there is through-service on the J, something that doesn't exist on weekends.
Thanks Larry Redbird and Brian....
I can understand how they handle the reversing now. My problem is accepting the fact that the Jamaica train no longer goes to Broad St on weekends. Broad St was always the New York destination of that train when I lived there. I figured that when I came back it still would be. I guess the old adage applies here..."Nothing ever stays the same".
Karl B
Transit Authority figures since there are so many duplicated services south of Chambers Street ie: Lexington Avenue 4 & 5 since a transfer is available passengers travelling to Fulton St or Broad Street can use those trains instead.
The dim bulbs in charge truncated the "J" to Chambers Street because they didn't want to have to staff a tower. If you want to get to Broad Street station on weekends you are SOL - you have to get off and take the #4 or #5 from BB down to Wall and then walk over a block or so. I really wish they'd change this.
Anyway, we fell victim to a GOH on the "J" today - 24-minute headways during midafternoon so we couldn't get off at Chambers Street to view the mouldering, festering ruins. It would have eaten up the clock, so we stayed aboard. They'd better get cracking down there or there isn't going to be any more Chambers Street. Never have I seen a subway station in such a state of disrepair. EVERYTHING seems to have fallen apart.
Wayne
We have talked about this before. It has been almost forty years since I last saw the Chambers St station, and it was in bad shape then. In those days they weren't using three of the five platforms which is gloomy enough. The ceiling was leaking in numerous places, and there seemed to be tile or concrete drops everywhere. It sounds as if nothing has been done since I left so conditions are about forty years worse.
Well, they did have to do some remodeling in 1960-61 when the adjacent IRT Brooklyn Bridge station was lengthened northbound, but I'd guess since then, they haven't done much at all, while Brooklyn Bridge got a second renovation three years ago.
Of course, you can't get to upper Manhattan via Chambers Street, so fixing it up isn't going to be a front-burner priority for the MTA. If the BB station was in the same sad shape, there would be newspaper articles and TV reports all over the place, since higher-income people would have to look at it every day.
Yes, I agree with that. However, if they don't do something about it soon, it very well could become a safety issue. The ceiling over the unused platforms, which as recently as late 1997 did not show much water damage, is now peeling for almost its entire length. The far north end is worse than it's ever been. It's a plain shame.
Wayne
The J/M/Z is very mistreated. Any J/M/Z advocates out here?
Right here. It's time the JMZ got some more respect than it does today.
Rodney Dangerfield would feel right at home on that line.
Maybe they want to close the station and run the J up 6th Ave when 63rd is complete. Then you will get the J train from Jamaica Center to Jamaica Center
I was on this train today, and it's ridiculously slow. Does anyone know if there are plans to speed things up on this line?
One way to speed this line up would be to consolidate it to 2 tracks, thus eliminating those annoying curves south of Chambers and Canal by Queens-bound trains, as well as that maze of switches north of Chambers. Use only the downtown platforms at the Bowery Canal, and Chambers.
Did I say GOH? Boy I am so tired I can't think straight. I meant GENERAL ORDER - abbreviated "GO", not GOH (general overhaul)
ANYWAY - if anything needs GOH - It HAS to be Chambers Street. It is THE PITS.
wayne :o)
I have an even better analogy than Ellis Island for Chambers St. How about the Colosseum in Rome?
Yes, it is too bad we were hamstrung by that stupid GO - I didn't see a soul out there working on the railroad - causing a 24-minute headway in the middle of a weekday! Anyway, you got to see a nicely renovated station (Fulton Street), not the decrepit, dilapidated, decaying sarcophagus of a station we all know so well.
Simon Billis and I will explore the ruins (and ruins they ARE) further on Monday, November 8. Maybe I will take some additional pictures for my collection. I wonder if the planned construction in Foley Square has begun yet.
The Colosseum of Rome has stood the test of time quite well, considering it is about 2,000 years old. Chambers Street only dates from 1913. Certainly now it ranks at the absolute bottom of the heap, 468th out of 468 in terms of condition.
Wayne
If Chamber St. dates back to 1913, then what service ran to it? The Willy B and Manhattan B connections didn't open to 1915 at the earliest, IIRC.
Williamsburgh Bridge connection, probably to the trolley terminal at first, opened September 16, 1908.
The Nassau Street subway (Chambers to Essex Street) was opened on August 4, 1913 and for its first year or so connected only with Broadway/Brooklyn until they opened the Mahattan bridge connection. It may have been a shuttle line at first. Connection to south side Manhattan Bridge opened June 22, 1915. The Fulton and Broad Street stations and the connection to Montague Street tunnel opened in 1931.
Wayne
Well that's something I didn't realize. I always thought the Manhattan Bridge connection opened first. Thanks for the info.
The line from Essex Street to Chambers Street was officially known as the Brooklyn Loop Lines-Manhattan Section although it was much more commonly known as the Centre Street Line. The Nassau Street Line was a later construction connecting Chamberts Street with the Montague Street Tunnel. The two west tracks at Chambers Street opened on August 4,1913 and were used from the start by through trains from the Willy B. Southern Division trains began using the east tracks(at Chambers Street) from the Manny B on June 22,1915. For the next sixteen years Chambers Street was run as two-two track terminals side by side. Eastern Division trains on the west and Southern Division trains on the east. As built it was intended to connect the two west tracks to the Brooklyn Bridge and the two east tracks to the Nassau Street Line. Its for this reason that the west tracks are higher than the east tracks. By the time the Nassau Street Line was opened on May 30,1931 plans were changed and the Nassau Street Line was connected to the two outer tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That was the one thing I didn't look for when we passed through that magnificent ruin of a station, even though I was looking through the windows on the left side of the train the whole time we were there. I never noticed the difference in track height.
If you ride a Queens bound train through the station you will see it clearly just as you enter the station. The downtown track is several feet higher than the uptown one, and the front end of the downtown platform splits to accomadate the 2 different levels (Like Dekalb Ave and Chambers St. on the IRT).
The BMT actually began service from Chambers to Essex Streets in
1913.
What I find fascinating is the fact that the Centre St. subway was built to BMT clearances - before the Triborough system was even envisioned! According to Brian Cudahy in Under the Sidewalks of NY, it took five years to complete the section from Essex St. to Chambers St. Well, Cudahy states that "construction on the loop line proceeded at a sluggish pace". On top of that, when that line opened, the BRT still had no steel subway cars and had to use wooden el cars, and even when the BMT standards begin arriving, the Broadway el had not been upgraded to handle them. It was finally upgraded in 1916. Makes you wonder what they did to the station platforms originally. Did they extend further to mate with the narrower el cars and were they shaved back when BMT standards started plying the rails?
Don't know about the platforms,but I can say that the tunnel ceiling seems to be slightly higher on the stretch from Essex to Chambers.
I also remember a sign at the end of the platform on R3 track at Chambers reading:"No C Types or Elevated cars past this point".
11/05/99
Speaking of high ceilings , the ceilings on the BMT 4th Avenue subway are also high too. This was the route to get the high roof "el" cars from the BMT Eastern division to the Southern division. The way to get from the Eastern division to Coney Island shops for major work was the following:
Broadway elevated over the Williamsburgh Bridge , Centre St. subway to Chambers Street. Change ends at Chambers , go over Manhattan Bridge (south side tracks) through Dekalb , down Fourth Ave,subway to 36th Street. Over the West End or Culver down to Coney.
Remember,because of height , they couldn't use the Brighton (between DeKalb and Prospect Park),the Sea Beach (59th St to 86th St) and let's not forget the Nassau St. subway (Chambers to Broad and to DeKalb Ave).
Any errors in this posting , let me know.
Bill Newkirk
That was my thought;higher ceilings to accommodate el car moves.
Not sure about the routing so I can't comment. I'll have to check out the areas you mentioned.
I doubt if the platforms were extended to cover the gap. The original "Manhattan Terminal" aka Essex St was built to handle 9 foot wide BU Cars and was rebuilt when the line was extended to Chambers St. As for the other three stops the BRT had a conductor between each pair of cars who could warn passengers of the gap. This practice continued on certain lines up until the BU's were retired in 1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wayne: I ran into that same GO a few weeks ago when I went looking for the Lexington Avenue El connection into the Broadway El. Not wanting to wait nearly half an hour for a train back to Manhattan I took the B-54 to Jay Street and luckily picked up the R-110B on the C.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How come the R62a is not called the R63? Ditto for the R68a and R69?
3TM
169St. Transfer to the Bx35. The next station stop will be 163St. Transfer to the J on the upper level. The Bx6, Bx15, and the Bx55 on the street level. Stand Clear.............
Not major enough changes. The Toyota Previa was renamed Sienna because there were many major changes. It is called A because there are differences, but not major ones.
Because they were of very similar specs, and the order was basically "What? You can't build 1000 cars?" "OK, you build 500, and you build 500. That'll work."
-Hank
The R-63 was a rollsign order as I recall, wasn't it?
R-31463 was indeed a roll sign contract. It was in process in the early 80s when I worked for the capital budget department. The first signs that came out using the Helvetica (upper and lower case type)type face and which had route signs using the newer colors) came from this contract.
10/27/99
HAPPY BIRTHDAY....I.R.T.!!! Today marks the 95th anniversary of New York City's first successful subway line that spurned an expanded IRT system,spawned another rival system (BMT) and later on,a city owned system (IND). Today marks 95 years of a success story that changed New York City and it's traveling patterns forever.
Perhaps any birthday wishes from all you SubTalkers out there!!
Bill Newkirk
Too bad the Lo-Vs are not out and running...
-Stef
It would be nice, but they need mechanical work. Brian
Maybe they will have them ready fo 2004 if they start now
At around 2:35, let's all observe a moment of silence for our beloved subway....
It's Really Terrific
Because Mass Transit
Is Never Dull!
In IRT history, William Parsons is my man. He was
the chief engineer of the construction of the whole
line. He was a real straight arrow, dedicated,
determined, knowledgeable, and passionate engineer.
I can't seem to find the video I had of the building
of the IRT, but I really got the sense of a man who
knew and cared about what he was doing. He was not
a man to be messed with. I remember they told a
story about a friend of his who had a contract to do
part of the line around 33rd Street ( I think ), and
Parsons got reports of poor workmanship. He went
with his friend to the section in question, and his
friend swore that the work was good. I think the
friend banged a section of the ceiling to prove it,
and a whole section fell down on his head and proved
fatal. No joke. I once tried to find a biography
of Parsons, but couldn't. But from what I read and
saw on the video, he seemed a real righteous man.
And his work has lived on and served the people of
this city.
I should not forget a tribute to all the men who
actually did the construction work and to those who
gave their lives. Not to be forgotten are the women
who lived with, supported, and raised the families
of these workers.
To paraphrase Lincoln: The world will little note
nor long remember what I say here ( although they can laugh at it when it's funny ) , but it should
never forget what these men and women did here.
There was a nice six page pamphlet put out at the time of the Diamond Jubilee, 1979. It includes photos during the constr & of the principles, i.e. Belmont, Parsons, etc.
It also says that after this project Parsons went on to the Panama Canal & Cape Cod Canal. He also went to France for WW 1.
I have a copy thanks to a Subtalk friend, isn't life great !
Mr t__:^)
Parsons lives on in the firm he spawned, Parsons Brinckerhoff.
And not forget that he built the damn thing to LAST!! Especially in an era when it was quite common to cut corners to the job done, and skim off a few million at the same time..(see: Willy B, Manny B, the 'Tweed' courthouse, etc etc.....) And also don't forget August Belmont, who put his money (okay..the Rothschilds money..)on the line. Also people like William Barclay Parsons, Seth Low ( a GREAT mayor of NYC in the late 1890's),etc etc etc....
10/27/99
Hey Paul,
I wonder if William Parsons is looking down from the clouds and what his thoughts would be on this Second Avenue subway fiasco and why it's taking decades to build?
Bill Newkirk
Is the boulevard in Queens named after William Parsons, or another person?
Parsons is also the main reason why the NYC subway system has express & local running (4 tracks) proliferating throughout. It is not nearly as common elsewhere.
--Mark
A moment of silence???!!!!! The system did not pass away.
There should be a moment (or many moments) of shouts and cheers.
At about 2:33PM I boarded an uptown Express at Brooklyn Bridge (could not stay on the #6 to "start" at City Hall - thanks a lot Rudy). I rode to Grand Central switched for the shuttle (track 3) and then to an uptown 7th Av Express to 96th St. After waiting almost 13 minutes for an uptown #1, I arrived at 145th St (where the first train terminated back in 1904) at 3:28PM - that's 55 minutes. The IRT folks originally advertised in 1904 "15 Minutes to Harlem". I wonder what they would think of things now.
Happy Birthday Interborough!! and many many more.
Well, you had to transfer three times, back then, only once. I think the most fair comparison would be to ride from Chambers Street and change to the local at 96 while dismissing the time you wait.
This is Belmont Raceway
This Z train will be running express on the J line to Essex Street.
Not at all meaning to detract from today's significance, but today is the 81st anniversary of the opening of the Benjamin Franklin Parkway, our own Champs Elysees.
So, on 10/27/2004, when our beloved subway hits the big 1-double 0, what changes would you like to see then from right now?
If the original minds behind the IRT could be present then, do you thnk they would be impressed by what they saw riding the trains?
I'd like to see a Bway express/Manhattan Bridge train running strong. I'd like to see a real 2AS(not possible by 2104) and I'd like to see subway trains running where the LIRR used to(hint, hint).
What do you think can happen in 5 years?
I think that City Hall should be opened just that day to allow passengers to board, and that a crossover be built between track 4 and 3 on the 42 shuttle allowing trains on track 1 at Grand Central to end up on track 4 of Times Square without reversing or leaving the shuttle.
This is 57th Street
The next stop on this Z train will be Lexington Avenue, change there for many trains.
Like a centennial run over the same route, except you ride without changing trains.
I'd be there.
Subway Steve's Homepage
Hear, hear! I vote for ...
(1) the City Hall-Lex-Shuttle-Broadway-138th ride;
(2) system is open free for 1 day, or 1 week, to celebrate; AND,
(3) station rehabs done on EVERY one of the original route stations. (They're probably halfway there now, though some -- 23rd St. especially -- will need to be redone.) I've actually wondered if the NYCT didn't plan its station rehab schedule to accomplish just this goal, but as usual is behind schedule and won't make the deadline. Any comments, anyone?
What would like to see in 2004? Hmmm... A certain Private Subway Car and a Hi-Voltage Car (one or both) need to be in the city for the occasion. And of course, you have to run your train of Lo-Vs down the Lex or the 7th Av Lines, and I could say it was a great day!!!
-Stef
On that date I would like to see the whole fleet replaced by Low & Hi V's, BMT Standards, Multi's, Triplexes, and the greatest trains of all the IND Standards: The R1-9's!!!!
Why wait till 2004. Have you forgotten that the highly respected psychotic Edgar Crazy has predicted that on 1-1-2000 the entire fleet will be replaced by their venerable ancestors. In fact let me clear up how this will be accomplished. Some doubters here thought that they could derail the idea by reminding me that ACF, Pressed Steel, Pullman Standard were out of business. I have recently been in touch with the producers of the original Invasion of the Body Snatchers and they have several thousand seed pods left over from the movie. In about 2 months, I will place these seed pods alongside surviving Triplexes, Standards, R1/9's,and lowV's and we will overnight have a new fleet of old cars. Of course many hundreds of the cars will have the same car number, but I am sending out bid forms for new number plates and that will be completed soon.
Why stop there? Petition corporations to adopt a subway car! Since they all have the same number, the paperwork will get all fouled up and everyone will be working on every car! Think of all the money that would come in for maintenance! Why you could DOUBLE the fleet and provide New Yawkers with the service they REALLY need ....
--Mark
But are they Y2K compatible?
You betcha!!! NO COMPUTERS - just Motormen and Conductors
A different fan trip each Saturday, using Pre WWII Equipment
We used to have it real good in 1979 and 1980, when THREE different Nostalgia Trains would run on Saturdays and Sundays to either the Cloisters, Rockaway Park or Coney Island.
--Mark
What I'd like to see:
- The Manhattan Bridge construction done, complete with a study on how much time and money were wasted doing the whole debacle so it doesn't happen again
- Re-enactment of the inaugural 1904 festivities on opening day. Maybe even have a great-great-great grand-sibling of McClellan, Belmont and Parsons on hand. (I'd be happy to operate the inaugural special, if anyone is looking for volunteers :) Proceeds of the inaugural special could go to a charitable organization. Demand could spur a number of "inaugural specials".
- Special tours of the forgotten places (Utica Ave, S 4th St, Sedgwick Ave, etc)
- MetroCard fares of a nickel that entire week; for every paid fare on 10/27/2004, MTA contributes a nickel to a restoration fund for some of the remaining pre-war equipment that still hasn't been restored or that is undergoing restoration but lacking funds to continue.
- A "parade" on the Culver Line (or any IND/BMT el structure) showing all the remaining equipment dating back to 1904. Railfans could line the platforms to take their photos. Trailers/non-working cars could be towed by MOW equipment.
- BMT express service restored on Broadway.
- N LGA extension under construction and 2nd Ave subway (in whatever form) nearing completion.
Not too unrealistic, I think ....
Now to the "unrealistic" dept ...
- uncover the trolley tracks under McDonald Ave and run trolley service of former NJT Newark City subway PCCs painted in B&QT colours.....
--Mark
Mark, have you been out to San Francisco lately. They are running on their F Line a PCC from Toronto in the TA Green and Silver Colors. Looks nice, even thou the TA never had such a new trolley?
It's a MUNI PCC all right, but it didn't come from Toronto, it's a rebuilt (to the tune of 600+K each) SEPTA GOH-2 car that spent the first 48 years of its life in the city of Brotherly Love.
Any ex-TTC cars that MUNI had were ex-Kansas City; ex-TTC cars. They ran in their TTC colors for a number of years, but are now all gone.
I'd like to be rolling down a tunnel so fast that I couldn't read this sign as it went by:
WD
85
There won't be such signs when the subway gets speeds that high, the subway will have CBTC.
I simply meant it as a way to show respect.
Unless there's something we haven't been told yet:)
Well, I thought the moment of silence was for the Manhatten Els, after all the building of the subways spelled their death!!!
Bah, humbug!
If God meant us to travel underground, he would have given us large claws and pointed noses.
Darn!!! You mean I had my claws done and nose bobbed for nothing?? :-)
And let us also not forget: that the more things change the more they stay the same....The first train was LATE!!
Today is a wonderful day for NYC and it's subway system. Remember, it wasn't until the subway started reaching the other boroughs until people moved out of Manhattan and into Queens, Brooklyn, etc. So the subway in a way is responsible for populating those areas...but that's a good thing :)
Happy 95th Birthday IRT! While I'm only 20 years old, I want to thank you for all the wonderful, memorable subway rides I've had, whether it's the shuttle to times square, the #4 to Yankee Stadium, or a riding the #2 or the C, but getting an R110 model intead of the normal cars...these, along with the general fun anytime I enter the subway, I am very grateful for!! -Nick
Nick: My fascination with the New York subway system has always made me wonder why. I found out last year when I realized that the system first opened on October 27, 1904. My birthday is today and I was born in 1940. Transpose 04 and you get 40. Some may not think much of this but I do. I have this fanatical interest in the NYC Subway and it always brings great memories of my youth in New York. Needless to day the Sea Beach was always my favorite train and that;s my name on this website. I didn't give it to myself, two other guys did. I gladly wear it. Happy birthday to the NYC Subway. I second and third the motion.
Happy Birthday to you Fred!!
I made up the same kind of theory (although I figured it out before). I was born on the 25th, 2 days and 2 years before the subway turned 80. I was born in 80+2 (82). Or you can divide 8 by 2 and get 4.
This is Es[censored] Street, change for the F, J and M trains.
The next stop on this Z train will be Broadway-Lafayette, where you can transfer to the B, D, F and 6 trains.
I was born on March 12th. The area code of the Chicago Loop is 312. Coincidence?? Hmmm...
Now I just need to marry a lady from NYC who was born on February 12th. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Eugenius---You're a cerebral kind of guy. Nice going.
I have my "Fun Pass" in my pocket & am ready for my 4 PM ride from Main Street to Coney Island where I'll be meeting some Subtalkers.
The ride on the Red Bird seems a fitting way to celebrate the IRTs birthday, especially since I'll be at the front window all the way to Times Square.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: How did it go, that is , your meeting with the subtalkers? How often do you guys meet and does the location change each time? I'm assuming Main Street was the terminal on the #7 Line, which ends at Time Square. The big question is: What train did you take to Coney Island for the meeting? Was it my Seaa Beach, or did you fink out and take the wobbly West End or the barfy Brighton Beach? Just wait, I'm going to get a lot of feedback on my last statement, especially from my pal Brighton Beach Bob over in Hawaii. But let's face it, this is some gig and I'm having a ball on this website.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, 8th Avenue and we come out of the tunnel.
The Sea Beach is the slowest route to Coney Island, I hate to admit it but the fastes routing is the B West End, unless you take the Q and catch a D between Kings Hwy and Sheapshead Bay
I can tell Brighton Beach Bob that you're not much of a fan of my train, but it might surprise you to learn that at one time the Sea Beach was the fastest train to Coney Island because it ran express in Brooklyn at certain times in the day. You must have good company in your corner because when I was in Brooklyn this summer I noticed how the stations on the Brighton Line were reburbished from the last time I had been there in 1991, but many stations on my favorite line were in bad need of repair. I hope the TA gets busy and makes the Sea Beach the signature line it once was. AND.....There was a time when the Sea Beach was the favorite Brooklyn line, the one most talked about and the only one that a book was written about. Alas, that book is out of print and I'm still waiting for word that people who are trying to run be down a copy have found one somewhere.
Sea Beach Fred, what was the name of the book on the Sea Beach, yes in the old days the Sea Beach was a Express, but it is a Local now, I also went back to Kings Highway Shopping Area this past June, and things change. Thank Goodness for BK and McD s the only bathrooms around
You are correct that I caught a #7 Red Bird at Main Street. It was a pleasant ride to Times Sq. Early on a small boy joined me at the front window. I asked if he knew what "IRT" ment, he didn't so I told him that he was riding a Red Bird on the IRT's birthday. He wanted to talk about the WWF & as he left I asked if he was going to tell mom & dad what was special about his subway ride ... he had forgot so I told him again :-(
At Times Sq. I caught a A to West 4th were I transfered to a F to Coney Island ... what a come down, the hippo was s-l-o-w & lumbering.
The #7 easily hit 40+, but the hippo was under 30 all the way except for one spot under the East River.
I had arranged with Doug aka BRTman to meet before 5:30 so we could munch on a couple of Nathan's before the others arrived at 6. We did but when I mentioned to the others, we ended up right back their :-) Peggy, Steve B from Denver & Wayne Mr Slant 40 had been touring the IRT system since 8 AM. They did IRT lines in all the boroughs accept Queens, so my trip means that we 5 rode the IRT (and mostly Red Birds) in Manhattan, Bronx, Brooklyn & Queens ... a real birthday celebration !
This walk-thru was the "Stillwell Ave" Field Trip that I joined mainly to meet Steve B. We saw all the platforms; the O/H Tower/Crew area accross several tracks; elevator to lower level; the Semaphore (yes they have one of the last ones from the IRT system as a lighted direction at the EOT). Even used the bathroom (Dough stood guard).
At the end it seemed that all were headed toward Atlantic Ave, so we boared a D & headed down the Brighton line. At Brighten Beach a Slant 40 Q was waiting so we transfered. This ride made me forget all about the lumbering hippos. What a treat to speed along at 40 or 50 headed streight for the Empire State building (it's lights were showing the way down the dark track). Dough got off at Prospect Park to take the Franklin Shuttle, Steve continued to West 4th, that ment that Peggy, Wayne & I left at Atlantic Ave. Peggy swithed to the IRT to meet PATH, Wayne & I caught the LIRR to Jamaica.
My "Fun Pass" has now been put in a place of honor in my album !
BTW, how often do we do these trips ... watch this board. Peggy is thinking of another one right now. I and a few friends are going to be Gandy Dancers Nov. 6th. I'm sure I learn the location of a few new muscles that will be giving me some pain.
Mr t__:^)
Mr t
I'm glad to see all of you folks were having a great time. Peg and Wayne are very knowledgable of the system (and good people)... Steve B was there? Gosh, it would have been a great time to meet him. I could have talked about Shore Line to him until I was blue in the face!!! Hehehe.
Happy Birthday IRT is the phrase of the day. Too bad there wasn't anything special out and running. Wait until 2004.
-Stef
Yup, I was there in the flesh. I met Wayne at Penn Station at 8:15. Our first order of business was a lumbering R-44 of an A train to Chambers St. for a glimpse of the seeing eye mosaics. Then began our main theme: ride the Redbirds. A 2 from Park Place to Times Square, then a 9 to 59th St., where we caught a huffing and puffing B train to 86th St. and met Peggy Darlington. After a quick jaunt across Central Park via bus, we descended to the express platform at 86th on the Lex, when a 5 train pulled in at the same time. We boarded the fifth car and marched single file to the first car and railfan window. At E. 180th St., we caught a 2 to E. 241st St. Due to a G. O. we didn't make all stops. On the way back, we got off at, IIRC, Intervale and walked over to the Hunts Point Ave. on the 6. Good luck was in our favor again, as all 6s were running express outbound to E. 177th St. due to track work. Our train went OOS once we got there, and we figured that was as far as we would get. As we mozied down the platform for the return ride, another 6, this time an R-62A, arrived bound for Pelham Bay Park. We boarded the third or fourth car and made our way to the first car. Meanwhile, the train ran express to the end of the line on the center track. More track work.
At PBP, another 6 train of Redbirds took us all the way back to 125th St., where we changed to a 5. The express run was pretty good from 86th St. to 59th, and again along the Park Ave. straightaway. We got off at Brooklyn Bridge and walked over to City Hall Park, catching a glimpse at the three panels which let sunlight to the loop station directly beneath. After a bite to eat, we walked down Nassau St. to Fulton St. and waited for a J train to check out the new trackwork on the Williamsburg Bridge. Unfortunately, the train which arrived featured a novice T/O whose instructor was riding along, so we couldn't stand by the railfan window. Add to that, J trains were running on 24-minute headways, so we stayed on board instead of getting off at Chambers St. to inspect the ruins. In general, it appears they did a nice job on the bridge. We got off at Broadway Junction and changed to a Rockaway Parkway-bound L, wanting to get a glimpse of the Atlantic Ave. complex before it disappears for good. At the end of the line, we explored the old ROW which led to Canarsie Shore. Wayne wanted to show me the odd arrangement at Wilson Ave., so that's where we went next - on an L of slant R-40s. We heard there had been a 12-9 at Broadway Junction, and there was a commotion as we went by. Wilson Ave. certainly was unique, with the view of the cemetary from the upper level and the beautiful mosaics. I had gone through that station once before in 1967 on a train of BMT standards, and didn't see the upper level then. Back to Broadway Junction we went, being directed around the paramedics tending to the person who had jumped or fallen onto the track. It was time to check out the Franklin Ave. shuttle. An A train of (yawn) R-44s took us to Utica Ave., where we got a glimpse of the never-used station shell. A C train took us to Franklin Ave. Before we reached the stairs to the shuttle, another A train of R-44s lumbered past. I said to Wayne I could only imagine how fast the slant R-40s used to go when they ran on the E.
The shuttle looks marvelous. We got off at both Park Place and Botanic Gardens to inspect the stations and take pictures, even checked out the new transfer to the IRT at Botanic Gardens. Finally, the time came for the topper - a slant R-40 run on the Q. There must have been a problem on the D in Manhattan, because our Q made all local stops to Brighton Beach. When it pulled into Prospect Park, it was packed to the gills. At Church Ave., most of the crowd bailed out. We wondered out loud why they just didn't send our train all the way to Coney Island if there was indeed a delay on the D. It took a good 10-15 minutes for a D to arrive once we got to Brighton Beach. When we finally got to Stillwell Ave., Thurston and Doug aka BMT Man were waiting for us. After a bite to eat at Nathan's, Peggy conducted a tour of the Stillwell Ave. station. She stated emphatically that there is no lower level for trains at Stillwell Ave.
When it came time to leave, we boarded a D for Brighton Beach, where a Q was waiting on the express track. We pulled out alongside another D train and ran neck-and-neck to Sheepshead Bay, and then left that D in the dust. Wayne was loving every minute of it, and so was I. We didn't encounter any other Manhattan-bound D trains along the entire Brighton line. We said our good-byes to Doug at Prospect Park, and I bid farewell to Peggy, Wayne, and Thurston at Atlantic Ave. I got off at W. 4th St. and headed back to my hotel to watch the Yankees complete a four-game sweep of the braves. Hey, if the Mets couldn't handle the Braves, at least the Yankees could.
All in all, it was most enjoyable day. Thank you, Wayne, Peggy, Thurston, and Doug. It was great to meet all of you. We'll have to hook up again next year at this time.
Alright then. Thanks for the great description. I'm glad you had a good time and I hope you make it a point to return this way at some future time. Don't forget to stop by Branford one of these days and see 1689, ok?
Cheers,
Stef
It's a deal. Next year, hopefully we can connect.
Yes, we all had a REAL GOOD TIME there, didn't we. BTW the station we got off at in the Bx was Simpson Street, complete with gingerbread roof trim and vents for the olde pot-bellied stoves.
I like that little "THINK" sign they have posted along the "Q" tracks just past Avenue H, for all those Slant-loving cowboys who like to dive into Newkirk at 50MPH and hit the brakes at the boards. Still, #4382 was rather impressive in its march up the Brighton, putting up a good five-minute lead on the lumbering, slumbering "D" train.
For those interested in equipment, here's the car roster:
A R44 #5236
#2 R33 #8991
#9 R62A #2380
B R68A #5043
M86 Bus RTS #7546
#5 R28 #7930
#2 R33 #9077
#2 R33 #9162
#6 R29 #8624
#6 R62A #1681
#6 R29 #8678
#5 R28 #7864
J R42 #4898
L R42 #4575
L R40 #4414
L R40 #4447
A R44 #5347
C R32 #3381
S R68 #2922
A R68 #2917 (twice)
Q R40 #4336
============= CORRECTED POST (FIRST ONE POSTED INADVERTENTLY)
Yes, we all had a REAL GOOD TIME there, didn't we. BTW the station we got off at in the Bx was Simpson Street, complete with gingerbread roof trim and vents for the olde pot-bellied stoves.
I like that little "THINK" sign they have posted along the "Q" tracks just past Avenue H, for all those Slant-loving cowboys who like to dive into Newkirk at 50MPH and hit the brakes at the boards. Still, #4382 was rather impressive in its march up the Brighton, putting up a good five-minute lead on the lumbering, slumbering "D" train.
For those interested in equipment, here's the car roster:
A R44 #5236
#2 R33 #8991
#9 R62A #2380
B R68A #5043
M86 Bus RTS #7546
#5 R28 #7930
#2 R33 #9077
#2 R33 #9162
#6 R29 #8624
#6 R62A #1681
#6 R29 #8678
#5 R28 #7864
J R42 #4898
L R42 #4575
L R40 #4414
L R40 #4447
A R44 #5347
C R32 #3381
S R68 #2922
S R68 #2917 (twice)
Q R40 #4336
D R68 #2538
D R68 #2522
Q R40 #4382
Wayne
Oh, BTW - we rode on #3381 on the "C" and I tried to find where they have the alleged R30 replacement part but couldn't find any evidence of it. Earlier in the day, we rode #1681 on the #6, who has a replacement anticlimber on her front end, the result of a boo-boo at Brooklyn Bridge a few years back. The Eastern Division Slants are losing their Bondo lines and it looks like some of them may have new roofs. R68A #5043 has a black floor, I added it to my list. And R33 #9162 (and his mate #9163) had better check in at the Bondo clinic SOON - they are suffering from rust and rot around the windows - I peeled paint chips off #9162's flaking side to pass round as souvenirs.
Wayne
If you folks have read the posts by Steve aka 8thAveExp, Wayne aka Slant40 & myself you may have noticed a difference in what interests us.
- Peggy, Steve & Wayne realy get into the detail of the trains, tracks & stations. They also were enjoying the hobby for a good 12 hours.
- I just have fun and if I learn/see something interesting/unique along the way, well that's a plus. For example: I realy like the Flushing line because of the Red Birds AND it's above ground most of the way. In particular the view of the Manhattan skyline is always a treat for me. Taking a subway to Coney Island is the fun part, if it's on a Slant 40 vs. a Hippo, that's the plus part. So the cherry on my desert was the Empire State building lighting our way as we took our last subway of the day.
What is great about this hobby is that all five of us had a marvelous time & enjoyed each other's company too.
Mr t__:^)
Hey, SteveB. It was great meeting up with you, Wayne, Peggy and Thurston last week. Thurston and I had a ball speeding down the Brighton on that slant-40 Q. BTW, I haven't ridden the Brighton since the days of Express D and QB Local service! So it was neat to see R-40's doing work on my old stomping grounds (I was very much impressed with the refurbished tiling at my old station of Parkside Ave.).
I know Thurston was impressed with the Brighton Line express run, since I think that was his first time on the line -- or at least it had been quite awhile since he rode it last.
Definitely, we have to do that again sometime!
Best, SubDude
I'll tell you this I won't take that Hippo on the F again ... yuck !
BTW, the N/R ride I took with Sid from NJ last year wasn't half bad either.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, you mentioned those R-46s didn't go much faster than 30 mph. I still don't consider them as hippos. The R-44s and R-68s, well, that's another story.
I thought we only used Hippos to describe the R-68.
Now you guys know why I'm looking forward to retirement from teaching and doing what you guys have just done. I have to tell you I'm a little envious that you guys did that gig while I'm stuck in California. Iwas hoping I could hook up with some of you last August but the only person I met was a motorman on a Sea Beach train that actually recognized who I was when I introduced myself as the "Sea Beach Man". We should keep abreast of goings on so we can really have a gigantic blowout some time in the future. I'd love to meet a bunch of you guys soon. Maybe next summer in New York.
Sounds like a plan, BTW Peggy Darlington is in the planning stages of a few "Field Trips" for the Spring. We've got the Hudson-Bergen LVR comming on line & probably a repeat on some from 1999, e.g. I would be happy to re-do the trip to the "Beaches of Rock & Long" because I end up 1 1/2 blocks from my house when I exit the LI Bus N15. It makes for a long way home (usually takes me just over 1/2 hour with top DOWN from College Point) but I think it's a very pleasent ride past Kennedy airport, the beaches, and houses/shops in Long Beach.
Mr t__:^)
They should release the Slant R40s in the Eastern Division from their local-service bondage for service on the "A", trading whatever R32s they can scrape together. The total units needed for the swap is currently 56 (#4390-4449). If they can't get them from the "A", then get them from the "C" and shunt some R38s over from the "A". The Slants on the "N" should move over to the "D", returning R68s in exchange, although this may mess up the allotments at Concourse-Yard.
Slant R40s are premier express trains and never fail to strut their stuff wherever the ROW and signals permit it. I can just picture them on the "A" - under 7 minutes from 125th to 59th; 12 minutes from Hoyt to Euclid. The "Q" we were on last Wednesday was cruising along at my own estimated speed 45 MPH.
Wayne
Actually it is Aniversary, since the subway was not born. O well whatever. This is the D Train leaving 161st and River Avenue Yankee Stadium. Home to the 1999 WORLD CHAMPIONS # 25
On the R train today as we passed the City Hall stop, the conductor mentioned that today was the 95th Anniversary of the subway system, and that the first train in 1904 left from City Hall. I would like to commend that conductor for his friendly, excellent announcements as well as for that wonderful piece of subway trivia.
Unfortunately, that was the wrong City Hall station. But I am sure that the sentiment was appreciated.
How about the BMT? When are we going to have a celebration for that?
I was always a BMT fan. In Brooklyn those trains came out of the tunnel while the IRT trains in Brooklyn for the most part stayed underground. And besides the Brighton Beach and my Sea Beach were the only trains that had the Triplex. Some of those IRT trains in the Bronx were just plain ugly.
Next stop on the Sea Beach, Coney Island.
10/28/99
First things first Fred! We have all we got to do to insure that the Low v's run for the centennial. Of course we are working (slowly) on the B-types. The D types are very good but the bodies need some Bondo and a decent paint job. The main stumbling block in all this is:
$$$$$ M - O - N - E - Y $$$$$
Bill Newkirk
Bill: I read you loud and clear. I will hold back my enthusiasm for another time.
I saw 6095 at the Transit Museum. It looks to be in decent shape. Of course, its two sisters spend their days outdoors at Coney Island, exposed to the elements. One bulkhead sign was set to 5 while on the other end the route sign was blank and the destination curtain said Coney Island.
Hopefully I'll be able to make it to NYC in five yearsŠ
Hope everyone is enjoying the IRTs anniversary. Thought I'd pass along this link. The Times has the article they wrote back in 'ought four on their website. It's neat to read, but the link might not work past today at midnight eastern, at least not without some navigating.
http://www.nytimes.com/learning/general/onthisday/991027onthisday_big.html
Hope everyone has fun riding today! I wish I had time to fly back east and do it myself. Actually, I would be happy if I just had time to read SubTalk.
See Day One on the IRT elsewhere on this web site for the Times article mentioned and some others from the same day.
-Dave
Here it is:On This Day: October 27
Interesting - the NYT page didn't have the entire article even though it said you could "read the entire text" of it ....
But we've got it on this site!
--Mark
10/27/99
I would like to thank Wayne-Mr.Slant 40 and David Pirmann for posting my two photos of wrecked R-10 #3333. This car was from the 59th St wreck in the late 70's in which vandals were have said to set hand brakes while car was in motion causing a derailment that took out some subway columns and sliced open #3333. This lead to installation of hand brake indicators in motormans cab and the now usual "coast" test at the begining of all terminals.
If you want to check it out,go back to the Table of Contents.
Go to Terminals and Stations,
Next go to illustrated subway car roster,
Scroll down to "other rosters",
Go to cars wrecked and scrapped while in revenue service.
Scroll down to the R-10 section and click on the small photos.
Check it out,you won't be disappointed.
Bill Newkirk
A couple of Metro North questions:
(1) Just north of the old GM Tarrytown plant site in Tarrytown (N of the Tarrytown station), there's a cream-colored building west of the tracks that looks an awful lot like a disused station. It's either boarded up or in use for storage. Anyone know what it is?
(2) There's a train of MARC bilevel cars in the Harmon Yard. Is MN testing bilevels? Any results of the tests? (Hadn't seen other lines' equipment on MN since the last of the V.R.E. cars left .... )
10/27/99
2) Those MARC bilevels were finished by Kawasaki at their plant further down the line at Yonkers. I was told that MARC rejected them due to some flaws and they were in some conflict with Kawasaki. Kawasaki has 24 hour guards minding them to twart vandalism. I believe they conflict may be over and the bilevels are heading out to Maryland. How they will ghet there is kinda interesting. They will probably head north to Selkirk and cross the Hudson River there and south through New Jersey and eventually to Maryland. I doubt they will head south through NYC to Brooklyn and be floated over to Greenville.
Bill Newkirk
They probably wouldn't fit thru the Hudson River tunnels, right? (So much for the obvious question of the day..)
MARC 7804, 7805, 7806, 7845 and 7870 were spotted in the Union Station yard on October 12th, so some of them are probably in service.
Wayne
The yard on the west side of the tracks at the former Croton North Station is called the Croton West Yard and under the control of CSX formerly Conrail. Cars from the Kawasaki Plant are placed here upon completion awaiting pickup by one of the through freights for shipment to various railroads.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is a one page biography in today's Daily News about George Metesky aka "the Mad Bomber" who planted explosive devices around New York City from 1951 to 1957. However,in 1957 Mr Metesky was arrested and sent to the funny farm here in Beacon aka Matteawan State Hospital where he remained until 1973.
On November 16,1960 another "Mad Bomber" planted a bomb on a southbound A train on R-10 3221 which exploded at the 125 Street Station. Tragically this bomb killed a young girl. He also planted another device in a photo booth at Times Square Station.
Does anyone have information on who this second "Mad Bomber" was and if he was ever apprehended? Thanks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
When NJ Transit opens the Montclair Connection in 2001 ...
(1) What will the combined Boonton/Montclair Line be called?
(2) What happens to the users of the 3 east-of-Montclair Boonton Line stations (Benson St, Rowe St & Arlington) that are apparently going to be abandoned? Is it just a case of "Screw 'em"? (Are these stations heavily used anyway?)
(3) Is NJT likely to hang onto the Boonton ROW east of Montclair? Are there plans for it?
(1) -- Don't know
(2) -- Benson Street is just about walking distance from the Glen Ridge station on the Montclair branch. Rowe Street may be a little bit more than walking distance. Those two stations are heavily used (heavily taken in context of Boonton Line ridership in general -- which is rather light). Arlington is very sparsely used -- by far the least used station on the line east of Little Falls (my old stop when I lived on that line).
(3) Conrail used to run an occasional freight over the line, including the infamous "Dirt Train" back in 1994. I think the bridge over the Passaic River is on it's last legs, so the thinking has been that they would abandon the line. I have seen recently, though, that Norfolk Southern is interested in using the line to get their double stacks to the NY metro area quicker than the current route through NY's southern tier. Obviously, they haven't met the Montclair NIMBY crowd yet.
I'm sure NJT won't miss it, the stretch through North Newark was famous for rocks and other items being thrown at the trains. If I read correctly, there was an incident about a month back in which someone fired a gunshot at a passing train injuring one of the passengers.
You must read the papers in dentist's waiting rooms! Assuming it's the same incident that I recall, it was about 18 months ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I know there have been messages here about the "phantom" track in the 63rd Street tube. On Monday morning, I got off at Lexington after the quick ride over from Roosevelt Island. Waiting for the elevator, a door immediately adjacent, built into the wall, was ajar. I peered in and voila, another track!! The chaining said it was G3. I looked down (east) and there was effectively a platform paralleling the one in service. I could not tell how far to the east the track and "platform" went.
Indeed, I've seen it too. When the Broadway connection is in use, you can sometimes see a laid-up train on this track while you are making the northbound cross-over move. The tracks are shown on Peter Dougherty's track map on this site and in his (most excellent) book.
Todd, last week I met one of your WCBS buddies in the NY Mets' store on 54th Street. He was interviewing people about the Mets, etc. Big guy--I think his name was Paul--I gave him my card to give to you next time he saw you.
That would be Paul Murnane. Nice guy, Excellent reporter. He's not a subway fan, but I'm working on it...
He's doing some weekend anchoring stints, too, right?
You mentioned Wayne Cabot's a train fan, too - so maybe you can double-team him :)
--Mark
Yes, WCBS NewsRadio-88's Wayne Cabot is a rail fan... but more steam/freight than electric. Another subway fan at the station is our Manager of Traffic & Transit (and helicopter traffic reporter) Tom Kaminski.
10/28/99
So reporter Wayne Cabot is a railfan (steam & freight).That's okay I guess,but he needs a good dose of catenary and third rail. That's what's happening baby! (Apologies to Murray the K!)
Bill Newkirk
That track and platform is for the connection to the 2Av subway if built.......
3TM
163St. Transfer to the J,3Av local on the upper level. The Bx6, Bx15, and the Bx55 on the street level. The next station will be 149St. Transfer to the 2,5,J,Q,Z lines. The Bx2, Bx4, Bx19, and the Bx41 on the street level. Stand Clear of the closing doors.....
I walked the tracks today, and you all are right; the Q line leads right to the proposed Second Avenue route. However, just before
I guess the other plan is to run two lines via 6th Avenue. One, via 53rd Street, while the other, via 63rd Street tunnel.
I do not like this idea because both lines will be:
1) coming out of sixth Avenue
2) orientation will change Local to Express, visa versa.
I thought the Bway trains were supposed to use those tracks behind the wall???? I think that was the original plan????
3TM
149St. Transfer to the 2 and 5 on the upper level. The J and Z across the platform making express stops. On the opposite platform the Q to Dean Av. On the street level, the Bx2, Bx4, Bx19, and the Bx41. Manhattan bound making local stops to Fulton St. The next station stop will be 138St. Transfer to the 6 train. The Bx32 and Bx33 on the street level. Stand Clear.............
They are for trains that will run down upper 2nd Ave., then head west on 63rd St. and south on 7th Ave (BMT B'way line). So both descriptions are correct.
I've actually wandered into that doorway once when it was open (on the downtown side). It is an unfinished station, no tile or markings, but is lit up just like a finished station. There was a laid up N train on that track at that time (@1996).
On returning this evening, I tried to figure if there was a similar track on the Queens-bound side. I could not see any doors on the platform which might lead to another track.
Thinking about the "stubway", I cannot in good conscience see what the MTA is thinking. The option of using the BMT Broadway connection gets passengers off the East side and downtown, but I cannot believe that it would be faster. The types that get on at 86th St. want to get to Wall Street FAST; they will endure overcrowded Lex trains that are quicker than roomy trains that go all the way crosstown before heading south.
If LIRR trains end up in GCT and dump even more type "A"'s onto the Lex line, we will approach gridlock. I rarely comment in this space on political issues, limiting contributions to those of a factual or historical nature. This is one which is so clear-cut that it leaves me no choice but to chime in.
A proposed B'way/2nd Ave. line will do 1 thing: get all of those who live on the East Side over to the West side. Lower Manhattan passangers will most likely stick with the Lexington Ave. line. However, those headed to Times Sq. and Herlad Sq will benefit with a direct connection, and these people will get to their destination without ever stepping on a Lexington Ave. train, which justifies building this line in the first place.
Also, those people who live along First and York Ave. will most likely use the proposed line because it's a shorter walk than the walk to Lexington Ave., as well as the thought of a much less crowded ride with the off chance of getting a seat. Never underestimate the laziness of NY straphangers. Many will take longer trips just to get a seat, as many do along the Nostrand Ave. IRT. I often see people get on a Flatbush bound #5 in the morning just to assure themselves of a seat when the train turns around to go to Manhattan.
They do the same at Utica. Many people will take the 3 from Nostrand and Kingston back to Utica, go downstairs and pick up the 4. I can understand though, the 4 does get crowded at Utica when it is sitting there motionless........
3TM
138St. Transfer to the 6 on the upper level. The Bx32 and Bx33 on the street level. Last station stop in the Bx. The next station will be 125St. Transfer to the J and Z lines across the platform making express stops. On the street level, the M15, M35, M60 to LGA, M100, and the Bx15. Step in, step on, step off, step out and stand clear of the closing doors.......
My father used to do the same, he worked at Herald Square, took the train to 57th St, and came back, he said it was only 8 minutes longer but he had a seat all the way to Kings Highway
You're right -- it is a uniquely New York thing to take the train in the opposite direction so that you can have a seat in the peak direction.
It's very common during the rush hour to see a 7 train pull into Times Square but only half the passengers get off. They get on at 5th Avenue (and some even at Grand Central) going in the wrong direction so that they can have a seat for the ride out to Queens.
Sometimes when I take the #7 from Grand Central to Queens,I take the shuttle back to Times Square rather than take the #7 back. I find it is much easier to get on the shuttle train and they leave about every two minutes. Of course, getting on the #7 at Grand Central saves you the hassle of fighting for a seat when the train pulls in at Times Square.
This is Times Square. The last stop on this #7 train will be Javits Center. Step in please and watch the closing doors.
The same thing is done on the L. Passengers from Union Sq and 6Av would ride to 8Av to catch a seat back to Bklyn........
3TM
125St. Transfer to the J and Z making express stops acros the platform. The M15, M35 to Randalls Island, M60 to LGA, M100, and the Bx15. Fulton St bound P making local stops via the 2Av local. The next station will be 116St. Transfer to the M116 on the street level. Step in, step on, step off, step out and stand clear of the closing doors.......
Tried to do that with the E last month.I got on an E going to WTC at Penn station/34th, but unfortunately due to something going on at WTC, our train terminated at W4th and I had to get an F to Queens.
10/28/99
Chris R,
Re: Second paragraph.
I used to do that back in 1971 when going to work on West 54th off Broadway. I used to get on the Newkirk Ave. station (Brighton) and head back to Brighton Beach to be assured a seat,in which I got up earlier for.
Of course the equipment was R1-9's and a cross seat with a window view was the great start of the workday,as I marveled at those standees in a packed car!
Bill Newkirk
There is another track on the other side of the wall on both levels. I've seen and photographed them a couple of years ago on a Transit Museum tour. The photos aren't good enough to scan, however - very dark slides, as I was carrying my little Minolta rather than one of my bigger, heavier, less reliable (but oh so nice) Exaktas. On one of the levels the track goes some distance beyond the platform area, as I recall, but on the other one the bumper is at the end of the platform. There is a full unfinished shell which we were able to wander around. Some of the folks on the (poorly controlled) tour wandered into some finished passageways but I respected the wishes of the tour guides and stayed in the unfinished area. From the entrance to the passageways it appeared that they were entering an area used for offices or some such - whether this was "temporary" use of that space or whether that was its intended function I couldn't tell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I rode the Newark City Subway yesterday and there is a new fare collection policy in effect. I realize the Jersey folks may be aware of it but some of the less frequent visitors to the subway may not be.
Fares are no longer collected on the cars, the fareboxes are covered over. You must purchase a ticket a TVM and THEN VALIDATE IT in a separate machine. There were NJT people at Penn Station instructing passengers to do this and there was a Fare Inspector checking tickets on the car.
Larry,RedbirdR33
GLAD TO HEAR IT! I am sooooooooo glad that the European 'honour fare' system has finally been tried back there! It is about f**king time that revenue collection has entered the 21. century! I do hope that it will be sucessful and that other systems back there would adopt this much more of a efficient fare collecting system. So glad to hear this news! This means no longer must passengers queue up at the front door when it would be for faster loading (and unloading), it also means a less of a burden for the operator, who can turn his'her attention to DRIVING (or operating, if you will) rather than having to deal with financial matters, fare evaders, etc. With eight to ten million people in New York, I don't know if it would be possible for the MTA to adopt this system (perhaps with very severe penalties for abuse) but it would be nice, and lend itself to a much more efficient operation. KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!
No it wouldn't be good for NY. It would make it impossible to use a declining value farecard. Maybe you could have proposed such a thing back when the token was king.
This Broadway-Cryayette, change for the B, D, F and 6
This Z train will be running local to 57 Street
Cryayette?
Oy:)
Well, you laf, you cry.
This is Lexingmegagram Avenue, change here to a bunch of trains on which you are NOT riding.
BTW, this is the Z train, and the next stop will be Roosevelt Island.
This is a Metropolitan Avenue M. Next stop, Wyckoff the Candle Killer Avenue. Watch the closing doors...
I always thought of that street as asking Why Cough?
I mispronounced "Schermerhorn" until the operator of the "A" train said it once.
Some of those Dutch names tie you up....
Stuyvesent, Schermerhorn, Wyckoff, Schuyler
Others just boil the blood.....
Giuliani....:)
I should have no problem pronouncing Stuyvesant (which means quicksand, BTW).
Thewy use a sort of honor system in LA on the Blue Line, but instead of Fare Inspectors, when you get to Century Blvd in Watts which is the fare zone, you get a couple LA County Deputy Sheriffs asking for your ticket. Depending on what you look like and attitude is how they will treat you. Since I have not written the line since they split it into 2 zones, I just had a transfer from the Red Line. The Deputy just told me to get off the next stop and buy a new ticket,a and catch the next train. On the way back I made sure I bought a thru ticket, and when I got to the Fare Zone, no one came to check on the tickets. It is hit and miss. Also San Diego has the honor system on its trolley. This is the #7 Franklin Ave Line running express to Coney Island, Next stop Church Ave
Buffalo has the honor system on its subway. If you get caught without a ticket you either get a warning or a $20 fine depending n how you act.
Upon talking to my friend out here who had worked for the TA for a score (2 decades) he had informed me that this odd piece of rolling stock (which lookslike a modified R16 or the like) that was used in the film 'Money Train', was never shot on location on the system back there. However, upon browsing this site, I had very distinctly saw it sitting in the yards at C.I. Now, is it true that they actually filmed the subway footage on in some abandoned yard out west here building a mock tunnel, and that this piece of interesting equipment was shipped back there, or are there two such carriages, or has it in fact been the case that this film WAS actually shot on the premises of the MTA. I sure would like to know. Thanx
The movie company made three identical "Money Train" cars. They were heavily rebuilt IRT R-21,22 cars. One stayed in NY for the scenes that were filmed around the system (Manhattan bridge, etc) The other two along with 12 or so R-30 cars were shipped to the movie set in California. After filming was done the Movie Co. donated one of the cars to the TA museum. it was there for a while but it is now sitting in Coney Island yard right under the Ave X station.
I know that we are all disappointed that the TA could not see its way to hold a ceremony marking the 95th, but they are making up for it a bit with a great looking exhibit at the TM store at GCT called
"Transit Treasures". The exhibit opens Thursday October 28.
I snuck a peek behind the curtain they have up saw one of my favorite pieces of old transit that in itself has nothing to do with the trains. It is the Chicklet Gum vending machine (with the mirror on the top). It brought back a lot of memories of putting a penny in one of the slots and then turning that great handle (which turned either way) and then getting a pack containing 2 pieces of gum. I had my camera with me so I got a picture before everyone else.
Other items on display include, old signs, lanterns and lots of fantastic stuff. This is a must see and bring a camera.
BTW - for those of you who say "Wow, he must be old to remember those gum machines" I will be 48 on 11-6. I also remember the soda and candy machines on the platforms as well. Those lasted into the 60's.
What about the old candy bar machines. If I remember correctly they also had a mirror on top. There were 3 selections of candy bars. I remember I once put a coin in one at Roosevelt Av (E & F) after changing from the "7" and a bunch of change came out, just like a slot machine. I did it several times until no more change came out, I assume I emptied it, and made about $4.00. Then I heard the GREAT sound of an R1-9 and got on it for Jamaica. I always went to that machine whenever I was in that station but it never happened again!!!
Oh yes the penny chewing gum, loved that Jucy Fruit Gum
Not to mention the pretzel stands where you could get a hot soft pretzel for a dime or 3 for a quarter.
I was just at the exhibit. It was better than going to the Transit Museum and the cost is free! The old vending machines bring back some great memories, but my favorite exhibit are the samples of the slugs that people used to put in the turnstiles. There is also an exhibit featuring the slugs that were used on the TBTA bridges and tunnels in the days before EZ-pass. The token evening outfit is also interesting. this exhibit is a must see.
Mark
You are not "old" to me as you could have lied about the age and gotten away with it. Im only 32 but clearly remember the incandescent lighting and the chicklet machines too. As a kid we always seem to remember the toy and candy shops we always hung out at. Mine was 72 St and Central Prk West where my aunt lived. She was 97 when she died. Thats a full life. They had the machine and the dim lighting there too in the early '70s. My trip home to Kingsbridge was always pleasant as long as the headlights were on the outboard side of the train. The IND always had that rusty smell when you entered the system at the street, I guess from the R-9s or cast iron brake shoes.
Ah, yes! That rusty smell.
And burnt smelling, as well...
When the IRT first opened and you rode uptown to 42nd street, did you have to transfer to the shuttle to get to Times Sq? If you didn't have to transfer, how sharp was the turn at 42nd St? When was the 42nd Street Shuttle made?
There was no transfer. Indeed, Times Square wasn't even an express stop. For more information check out IRT Grand Central-Times Square Shuttle elsewhere on this website. There's probably more information elsewhere on the site too, but that was the first piece I could put my Anon_e_mouse on.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pretty cool architecture through there. The platform for Track 3 at TSQ is where track 2 used to be. Looking west (north?) of the station into the 7Av line right of way you can see where the 4 tracks curved to head up town.
I think it was 1917 or 1918 when they created the current "H" pattern of services, with the opening of the 7th Avenue (Times Square south) and upper Lexington Avenue lines. The southbound shuttle track continues around the curve (not in revenue use) and it looks to be very tight. The curve west of Times Square was broader.
Wayne
It's a tight curve, probably near the same radius as the curve just north of Fulton St on the 4/5.
--Mark
Since the IRT was designed to the same standards as the existing els, these curves were acceptable. The later IRT tunnels were mostly designed to the so-called Triboro Spec which was used for the BMT and IND subways. The older parts of the IRT were never upgraded, so the system endures with 51' long and 9' wide cars.
The curve from GCT shuttle station onto the east side main line was probably made even tighter when the Lexington Av. line was built. Which brings up a couple of questions:
1.
How was the transition from 4 tracks via 42nd St. to 4 tracks via Lexington made?
2.
Are there any other remnants of the original route remaining north of the current 42nd/GCT station.
The original route turned west at GCT. The route north of GCT was opened in 1918. I don't have time to research it right now, but IIRC the construction was essentially completed except for relocating the tracks. Then, the subway was shut down for a weekend(?) and the tracks were re-connected as they are to this day.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahh finally we can get the baseball talk off SubTalk!
-Dave
Why is baseball so successful in cities like Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Chicago?
Because you can get there by reliable mass transit!
And Special Congrats to Roger Clemens who threw a classic in the Bronx last night to make up for the Disaster in Queens 13 years ago and his humble return to Fenway Park last week!
Congratulations also to all of you New Yorkers! Steinbrenner may be a jerk, but he knows how to assemble a winning team, and has done so time after time!
Has the famous curse spread?
Don't forget that not only did Babe Ruth begin his career with the Red Sox, but he finished it back in Boston with the Braves.
Enough Baseball!
Gerry from Boston
25 WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS need I say more? Every thing was great last night. It's too bad that that this the first time since the IND was introduced that C is not running up there. Long live the 4,C,D to yankee stadium!!!!!!!!!!!
the C would not be running thatb time of night anyway after the game, Yankees Franchise of the Century. THEY ARE TRULEY AMERICA S TEAM, NOT THE DALLAS COWBOYS OR THE BOSTON/MILWAUKEE/ATLANTA BRAVES. ADD UP THEIR CHAMPIONSHIPS AND IT IS NOT EVEN CLOSE TO HALF THE YANKS WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP. by the way, does anyone know how the word or expression Yankees Came about. Answer by Halloween, unless someone gets it right before hand
Yankess comes from the Dutch Jan Kees, which means John Cheese. This nickname was applied to British American Colonists following 1664.
RUE4the day.
YOU WIN what I don t know, but you are correct
Actually, only about 15 percent of those traveling to Yankee Stadium use mass transit. It would be more if the #7 line were extended and a stadium were built on the West Side.
"only" 15%?
I doubt that number is beaten by many (if any) sports venues in the US, except for MSG (but, to drive to MSG you need a REALLY lame excuse, as it'a a one seat ride from practically anywhere in the northeast!)
I'd say the low number to Yankee Stadium has more to do with people's perception than anything anyway. Has either team ever done promotional work with the MTA? Like maybe discounted tickets for those who use mass transit?
OK, the Yankees won! Most of you are thrilled, but I'm not. I'm an old Yankee hater from way back when, and although these Yankees are hard working and stand up guys, the memories of the arrogant, businesslike, US Steel image of George Weiss and Dan Topping still reverberate with me. I long again for the days of 1965-1975, and 1982-1995 when the Bronx Bummers got their just deserts. Well I got that off my chest and there will be no more baseball from me for the next six months or so.
Next stop of the Brighton Express: Prospect Park Station and Ebbets
Field. Whoa! Did I just wake up from a dream?
I thought I wasn't the only one. They had one lad, Louis Polonia who's interest in young teenage girls got him in trouble with the law. I didn't endorse the Mets utilizing Gooden and Strawberry for their drug problems but a third chance by MLB is ridiculous. Now Guiliani wants to build them a new stadium? Let them move across the river so I can drive my car at 50 MPH on I-87 again. A team of former drug users is not my idea of a winning ball club and neither is a cleverly organized front of "Purchasing pennants and world series rings by spending millions of dollars on guys like Strawberry and El Dousche". Money buys Steinbrenner his fame. I wish New Yorkers would look at the costs involved to keep pinstripes in the big apple. Floating bonds and high ticket prices. Keep lining the Fatcats pockets why don't you?
I'm afraid I have to side with you. Besides being a Braves/Phillies Phan, I have rooted against the Reds and Yankees for years because of their owners. Now that Marge Schott has been forced to sell her majority interest in the Reds (she still has a small piece, but not the largest and she has absolutely no control) there's only Steinbrenner and the Yankees left to despise!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Marge Schott NEVER had any control over ANYTHING. The only thing she runs is her mouth. Goodbye and reach up to pull the handle to begin your whirly ride Marge
PUH_LEESE!! George is a pussy cat these days.. He actually LISTENS to Torre and people who actually know baseball. The REAL jerk these days is the idiot down in Baltimore, Angelos. How can you NOT like a team whos star shortstop still calls his manager "Mr Torre"??Huh?? Or a guy who still plays even though his father dies the night before??To compare Steingrabber with a racist old hag like Marge is incredible.. In case you havent noticed, ever since he came back from being 'banned' old Georgie has basically shut up (most of the time..),signed the checks, and let his baseball people do their thing. And the results we sure know about..especially the Braves. Now, as our webmaster said-Back to Subways Trolleys and Trains!!
The next stop on this Port Jervis train is Campbell Hall,change there for the Walden shuttle...
A Yankee is anyone who is born and raised within 150 miles fr City Hall no matter what is race, religion or creed is. He is still a honest to goodness Yankee (From Father Knickbocker in the 19th Century) This is 161st and River Ave D Train to Coney Island
Well, by your definition, I am one - born and raised in Poughkeepsie - but my southern roots run deep and by virtue of that and having lived more time in North Carolina than anywhere else I proudly claim the South as my home.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Brighton Beach Bob:----A Southerner? Looks like we have a new rivalry to keep our "feud" going. I'm an unreconstructed Yankee (not the baseball team) and my hero is Abraham Lincoln, and my favorite general is William Tecumseh Sherman. Before your antenna gets on fire, my wife is a direct decendent of Robert E. Lee, and therefore, my daughter carries some of the Lee blood. Hell of a combo, eh? My three loves are baseball, the Civil War ( I read anything I can get my hands on and just read another book on Lincoln is his 1831-1842 years
in Illinois), and the NYC Subway. Just as you take your adoptive home in NC as making you a Southerner, my 45 years in California make me a Californian. It is not where you're born but where you live and what you identify with that categorizes you. George Bush Sr was raised in Connecticut and moved to Texas in 1947. That make him a Texan.
Sea Beach Fred, I am a pure YANKEE, born and raised in Brooklyn, Like you spent most of my life in LA county, but a Yankee still and PROUD OF IT o An-omus, Like it or not you are a Yankee
Plus my southern ancestry - a lot more of my family wore grey than wore blue during the Late Unpleasantness.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That makes me a Yankee in your eyes but I will only admit to the part of a Yankee in Civil War games or CW arguments. In that, I'm am a Radical Yankee, but just the idea that it has to be indentified with the ballteam makes me sick. Sick in that I like the name Yankee but hate that team with all the heart.
I n ever mentioned the Ball Club any of them named Yankee. The Yankee name goes back to Colonial Days. The defination was given by Washington Irving over 100 years ago, the origin, well noone gave me one yet
I did!
RUE4the definition
I've always learned that the Yankees are from the north and the Rebels are from the south.
RUE4what's next.
No op
Oh, Schott was by far the worse of the two, but Steinbrenner has just always rubbed me the wrong way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Did Sea Beach Fred Mention the Brighton line to Prospect Park????
You bet I did. Even though the Sea Beach is my favorite line, my favorite station was Prospect Park Station and Ebbets Field. I wouldn't trade those memories for anything. Those were great days.
It's good that the Prospect Station is very nice these days.
RUE4the end.
Go Yanks! Lets do it again next year! Subway Series style!
Yeah, it would have been great for a subway series. Of course, with the damage the Yankees did to the Braves, would the Mets have had a chance?
25 Championships....WOW!! A few facts:
-A quarter (25%) century worth of wins, all in one century
-quintupled the amount of Red Sox Championships (they only have 5, last one in 1918)
Speaking of the Red Sox, here is a list of "curses:"
1920: Curse of the Bambino
1986: Curse of Bill Buckner
1999: Curse of Rod Beck? Or the Rocket?
-Nick
Also, did you notice that the YANKEES! had a lot more players on the All Century Team than the regular run of the mill ball clubs. The YANKEES! ruled then, The YANKEES! rule now, The YANKEES! will rule FOREVER !!! Be Proud, New York, your city is the home of the YANKEES!
Maybe the Braves should have stayed in Boston, they have had a couple of World Championships, and the Red Sox Moved to Beer town back in 54
The Mets may not have won, but it would have been a better series.
One thing I foung strange, and this affected the League Championship series is that track work was being done of the Queens Blvd IND the entire weekend, which reduced service for those wishing to transfer to the #7 at Roosevelt Avenue. This would have also affected service over this past weekend when the first two games would have been played at Shea had the Mets been in there.
(I was able to keept he subway relevent in this sports talk for those who don't like having sports talk of this forum.)
Willits Point Shea Staduim will be next. This is the #7 to Little Neck Parkway. Watch the closing doors.
Subways and Baseball are compatable---just take it from me, a Californian who has to drive to games and fight the damn traffic, getting to and fro---and to watch two crappy teams. New Yorkers have it made, two teams and easy access because of public transportation.
Thinking about it, I believe my love of the New York City Subway is part and parcel of what I associate it with. Two things. The Sea Beach to both my grandparents in the late 40's and early 50's, and along with it a trip to Coney Island, and the Brighton Express to Prospect Park Station and Ebbets Field. If you offered me a million dollars to forget those memories, I'm not even sure I'd want to take it. Those times and memories are priceless. Now if only the Mets could get in next year-----well, I will wait until next year for that.
I got on the 6:53 from Patchogue to Jamaica this morning. After stopping at Babylon, the train normally goes via the Central Branch, with stops in Hicksville and Mineola. But today, the conductor announced at Babylon that we'd be skipping Hicksville and Mineola, and in fact we ended up taking the Babylon line to Jamaica. Passengers for Hicksville and Mineola were told that they would have to travel to Jamaica and backtrack.
I am surprised that the LIRR would use such a strange re-routing, given the inconvenience to Hicksville and Mineola riders (of whom there are quie a few). But then again, on the LIRR *nothing* should be surprising!
Obviously, there must have been some kind of problem on the Central Branch or Main Line, so the LIRR decided it was better to inconvenience the handful of Hicksville and Mineola people than have the entire train possibly very late.
I didn't realize the LIRR management was together enough to even make that kind of decision.
I heard a radio report this morning of "police activity" (a scourge to commuters second only to the infamous "sick passenger" in aggravation) at the Bethpage station.
If that would have held up your train for any significant length of time, commuters for Hicksville and Mineola were probably better off going to Jamaica. Given the infrequent reverse-commute service on that line, I wonder if the LIRR would have held an eastbound to Mineola and Hicksville to await your trains arrival in Jamaica.
Chuck
[re Central Branch train being re-routed via Babylon line]
[I heard a radio report this morning of "police activity" (a scourge to commuters second only to the infamous "sick passenger" in
aggravation) at the Bethpage station.
If that would have held up your train for any significant length of time, commuters for Hicksville and Mineola were probably better off going to Jamaica. Given the infrequent reverse-commute service on that line, I wonder if the LIRR would have held an eastbound to Mineola and Hicksville to await your trains arrival in Jamaica.]
Bethpage? That would account for the re-routing, as trains which use the Central Branch join the main line just east of Bethpage. I would assume that the problem, whatever it was, would have affected Ronkonkoma as well. Not only is "police activity" aggravating, to me it has a dog-ate-my-homework aura, something that can be used to cover up just about any type of delay.
As far as reverse service was concerned, the conductor announced that Mineola and Hicksville riders could get a Huntington train leaving Jamaica at 8:28, which was about ten minutes after our arrival at Jamaica.
Peter --
I've always wondered about those commuters who rode from the Babylon-to-Patchogue stations up to Mineola and Hicksville.
Who are they? It is a strange service (which has been discussed on SubTalk recently) -- I wonder if it's done as a service to a particular business or businesses (LILCO or whatever they're called now comes to mind).
From other comments you've made, you seem like a pretty observant guy. Do those who get off at Mineola and Hicksville have anything noticable in common?
Chuck
[I've always wondered about those commuters who rode from the Babylon-to-Patchogue stations up to Mineola and Hicksville ... Who are they? It is a strange service ... Do those who get off at Mineola and Hicksville have anything noticable in common?]
There are several teenage boys who get off in Mineola. Based on the jackets some of them wear, they apparently are students at a school called Chaminade. It must be some sort of private or religious high school. I've also seen some Chaminade students on Ronkonkoma trains. Otherwise, I can't say that the Mineola/Hicksville riders seem to have anything in common.
That makes sense -- especially since I think there is an eastbound from Mineola to Patchogue a little after 3:00.
Chaminade is one of the bigger Catholic high schools on LI.
Thanks for the info.
Chuck
I recollect that Chamindate is about two blocks south of Jericho Tpke., and about four blocks from Mineola Blvd. So it's a fairly good walk from the Mineola train station (perhaps they get a ride?). When I drove for Pierce Coach Line in Roslyn, we had the contract to transport student there from Port Washington.
As someone who regularly waits at Mineola during the afternoon rush hour with my 3yr old son for my wife (who doesn't even take the train, she gets off the N22 at Mineola Station!!!) I see many people waiting there for the E/B diesel trains. Although its a broad cross section it there seems to be a large young prep school type crowd.
Someone was hit by a train at Bethpage. As of now there is no word on injuries.
-- Kirk
According to news12.com a woman "on her way to work" was struck and killed by a train at Bethpage.
FWIW, I heard a radio report while driving that said it was a woman on her way to be on the Rosie O'Donnell show.
[I heard a radio report while driving that said it was a woman on her way to be on the Rosie O'Donnell show.]
Of all ghastly things to die for ...
I know ths is a dumb question, but was it a bi-level or diesel?
[I know ths is a dumb question, but was it (6:53 from Patchogue) a bi-level or diesel?]
Bi-level. In fact, as far as I can tell all trains beginning or ending at Patchogue or Speonk use bi-levels. The only old diesels still used on the Montauk line are, oddly enough, some of the trains that go all the way to Montauk.
Typical LIRR thinking, use the worst equipment on the longest runs. Duh.
Lately, the 1:03A.M from Jamaica to Montauk has been a bi-level.The last time I saw old stuff was about 1 month ago on the 1:08A.M from Jamaica to Oyster Bay.
I wonder if the 9:02am weekend train from Babylon to Jamaica is a bi-level yet.
As for the accident this morning, there was a fatal 12-9 at Stewart Avenue crossing in Bethpage; a 66-year-old lady was struck and killed by a train.
We saw a 12-9 Wednesday afternoon at around 4PM at southbound Broadway Junction on the "L". We decided to sidestep it by going up to Wilson and back to Broadway Junction. They had the injured person out of the station when we returned.
Wayne
I wonder, but WHY does the LIRR mark the platforms as A & B instead of E & W? Are they trying to conform to ridiculous FHWA (Federal Highway Administration) guidlines on exits.
This is Workfare Island, change for the W here.
The next stop will be 21 Street-Queensbridge, BIG transfers available there.
10/28/99
On the news this night,the victim wass a 66 year old Real Estate agent who was enroute to Manhattan to see the Rosie O'Doughnut show.
SHE FOOLISHLY WALKED AROUND THE CROSSING GATES AND WAS STRUCK AND KILLED. Now there'll be a outcry for safer crossings and maybe a grade crossing elimination project like Herricks Rd.
WHEN THE GATES ARE DOWN....STAY PUT !!!
Bill Newkirk
I wonder, but WHY does the LIRR mark the platforms as A & B instead of E & W?
Because trains on the LIRR frequently (by schedule) wrong-rail during the rush hours. Most of the electric zone is reverse signalled, so E and W is meaningless.
This was a factor in the death at Bethpage--the train the lady was struck by was not on the track she expected it to be.
For those of you who look at the strained capacity of some subway lines, much of the LIRR has little or no service opposite the direction of heavy rush hour travel because the one or two available tracks are carrying trains in the heavy direction.
What the h--l is a 12-9????
Also, on the Far Rockaway branch past Gibson, eastbound trains travel
west to Far Rockaway and vice-versa...
When that branch went to Rockaway Park via the NOW IND tracks the LIRR stll called the W/B tracks to Rockaway Park Eastbound and vice versa. Very confusing. The author talks about it in the book "Change At Ozone Park". This was because the train left Jamaica in an Easterly direction and the LIRR uses Jamaica as the direction standard.
A police officer who doesn't know what a 12-9 is. Back to "track safety" training for you... A 12-9 is the radio code for a person having been struck or under a train.
Its not an NYPD code!!!
In Military Police codes, everyting started with "10" but they were standard only up to (IIRC) "10-20", which was pronounced "ten-two-zero."
We had a good thread here a few weeks ago about the "top speed" of ACELA Express between NYC and Boston. It was mentioned that more important to minimizing trip time than the maximum speed is the average speed... it doesn't do any good if you hit 200 mph for one minute then slow to 60 mph for an hour!
At any rate, I was speaking to the engineer of my MBTA Commuter Train (operated by AMTRAK) this morning. I often ride up at the control cab and chat with him; he leaves the cab door open :-) This train runs express from Mansfield to Back Bay, and much of the run is at the MAS of 85 mph (though we hit 88 today before the 'overspeed' alarm went off). He told me that he knows personally the engineer who ran the ACELA Express test train in Rhode Island last month, and that engineer said that the train was still accelerating as he approached 168 mph on a slight upgrade, with power to spare - he had to throttle down to keep from overspeeding. My engineer told me his friend was "very pleased" with the performance and power of the test trainset.
That's good news! But Amtrak still hasn't said when they'll actually run in revenue service... The 2 daily Regional round-trips to be added in January will help, but the three-hour running time of the Express trainsets is needed to get people off the air shuttles.
MacNeil Lerher had a report on ACELA last night. AMTRAK is counting on extracting big profits from the Northeast Corridor using ACELA to help subsidize money losing trains in the rest of the country.
They also interviewed lots of people from Congress, the GAO, etc. who say that AMTRAK is doomed. And one person from a watchdog group who said that without AMTRAK, the private sector could be brought in to run trains where they make economic sense. He acused AMTRAK of being a pork barrel express.
And one person from a watchdog group who said that without AMTRAK, the private sector could be brought in to run trains where they make economic sense.
Of course, Amtrak exists because the private sector decided decades ago that passenger trains don't make economic sense. I guess that means the replacement for Amtrak is ... nothing.
So we should keep throwing money at Amtrak?
Amtrak doesn't make economic sense.
When oil starts getting scarce we're suddenly going to need passenger rail again and it will be much cheeper to built off an existing system than to re-build one from scratch.
I believe that if the federal government (through a downsized AMTRAK) funded the maintainence of the ROW, as it funds the maintenance of interstate highways, then private entities would be willing to provide train service in the Northeast Corridor, and up to Albany and in California as well. You'd have three or four competing railroads running down the tracks. Take that billion in operating subsidies and use it to expand the network of high-speed, electrified tracks, and private rail service would expand.
AMTRAK uses poor service at high prices in the Northeast to turn a profit, which subsidizes service elsewhere.
As to private railroads shutting down, they were killed by government regulation and highway subsidies, not the marketplace. They were forced to maintain unprofitable routes (like AMTRAK) before being allowed to abandon passenger service altogether.
If Amtrak is expecting "big profits" from Acela, that means it DOES make economic sense. Why use the profits to subsidize trains that don't?
Politics. As a federally run agency, Amtrak has to answer to senators and congressment from sparsely-populated states that may have no economic way to justify continued train service, but get it anyway because Amtrak needs the votes to maintain federal funding.
Airlines, and even Greyhound and Trailways, used to be forced to cover unprofitable routes on a full service bases. Now they've been allowed to either cut back or abandon routes, or serve them with smaller-capacity planes or buses. If Amtrak was sold off some of the railroads probably would be willing to work a deal for the Northeast corridor, Midwest and West Coast lines, so they wouldn't go away, but something like New Orleans-to-Los Angeles rail service would definitely bite the dust.
They're expecting big operating profits. Capital expenses are huge, and Amtrak's NEC will still be subsidized by the federal government for those capital costs. If a private railroad got a hold of the NEC, they'd have to pay those capital costs as well, and that makes it unprofitable overall.
The question really boils down to, should we have a national passenger rail network or not, and if we should, then I think we have to accept that it will require subsidies.
I don't care weather the system makes profits or not - I don't expect it to any more than the local fire department does, the local police department does, etc. Our millitary doesn't make money, MOST things the gov does really don't make money. So i don't expect it from amtrak or whomever ends up replacing them.
What I *do* want though, is a better "bang per buck". Amtrak does a horrible job of moving people off the NEC, and frankly they're not that great ON the NEC either. My NY -> Hartford train is *3* hours. Figure in the usuall delays, and where's talking more like 3.5 hours. And hartford station is a dump. All for a spectacular $30 one way, with my student advantage discount.
And that's what bugs me about amtrak. We're spending all this money, and the resultant system is slow, unreliable, infrequent, and not as comfortable as it could be (ever ride in an amfleet car?). It's a poor investment.
I agree Amtrak has a way to go toward improvement. Lots of people agree.
But the fact is that Amtrak service is quite a bit better these days than it was when it first launched.
Equipment is newer and though not necesarilly super comfortable - it is much more reliable.
What's not reliable is government funding for Amtrak. It's been threatened repeatedly by Democrats and Republicans alike. Without reliable funding, it's a wonder they can keep trains moving as well as they do.
Speed - or the lack of it - is a constant issue as well. I've heard (ad nauseam) for about 30 years that the trains in the US are slow and unreliable compared to Europe.
Well - I've been to Europe many times over the past nine years. And I've experienced European train service first hand.
European train service is truly superior in only one particular area and that is that they are far superior to Amtrak in non corridor areas in the area of train frequency.
However - trains in Europe cost every bit as much as Amtrak - maybe more.
Trains in Italy and the Netherlands are no better than Metro North
where speed is concerned.
Granted - teh Europeans have a TGV that goes really fast. But it serves less than 1% of their riders. Amtrak's Metroliners serve more than 10% of it's riders and consequently provides more high speed service to more of the riding public.
As for trains arriving on time - trains in Europe are late at times (depending on the country - some more and some less.) The myth that trains in Europe run on time is false. Certainly some areas are more subject to delays than others. And this is true in Europe as well as the US.
In most cases, the governments in Europe run the railways. But here in the US, Amtrak has to work with sometimes uncooperative freight railroads to keep trains on schedule. I'd say Amtrak has the bigger challenge and provides better service in spite of the challenge.
Let's talk about comfort or the lack of it. Amtrak Amfleet equipment gets a thumbs down from me. But so does the Pendolino in Italy. And taht service is touted throughout Europe as very fast and futuristic. The reality is that it looks fast - but goes slow.
As for the Dutch, their train service seems similar to M1/M2 service on Metro North. My friends in Britain haven't got much good to say about their rail service either.
Compare Amtrak to these and Amtrak comes out ahead - other than the issue of frequency in non corridor areas - already mentioned.
If you compare Amtrak to the other world class railroads, Amtrak actually has a better variety of superior accomodations. Amtrak has comfortable seats in Superliners, Viewliners and Horizon cars. Sleeping accomodations are available on virtually all long distance Amtrak trains. This is not true of European trains.
I could go on a bit - but I think I've mad emy point. And to underliune that point - Amtrak gives a good value for your dollar paid
if you compare to European service.
Most productive conversation would focus on improving Amtrak. And improvements are needed for sure.
Let's not tear down Amtrak - let's find ways to build it up and grow support.
If we tear it down - we'll have nothing.
I have a friend in the UK and recently he visited the US and took a cross country Amtrak trip. He had also visited last December and took Amtrak from Chicago to Vermont and back. Needless to say he loves Amtrak and grades their service far superior to that of rail carriers in the UK (with the noted exception of train frequency). To all of you who were complaining about the Amfleets, what are they uncomfortable compared to? Your living room? They are certainly more comfortable than Metro-North or flying coach. Our standard class seats are as big and as confortable as 1st class seats in Europe. Not to mention that in Europe they have these little econo-box trains that ride like a bus and are only 75% as wide as ours due to the close clearances they have over there (2-1 seating in 1st class). Nothing will illustrate the differances between US and Europe more than riding around on a TGV for a week and then comming back and walk through an old Pullman at a railroad museum. Anyway, my English friend LOVES Amtrak and whishes that UK rail staff could be 1/2 as curtious and helpful as rail staff in the UK.
As I understand it, a lot of the delays between NY and Hew Haven are really Metro-North's responsibility (they dispatch that line). Also, Metro-North and the state of Connecticut are supposedly not helpful about upgrading the track in this section, which they own.
Hopefully the acela express service will lead to improvement for those of us who'll still be travelling the old fashioned way, so to speak. We'll see...
I think Larry made a good point (though not the first time I've ever seen it) that if the Acela operated like a long haul truck, i.e. they used the road (rails) & only had to pay staff, fuel, & maint. equip. ... well then they should eather do it without subsidy or we'll find some private company that will.
Once this works we add extensions to it. Or let the big cities take over more inter-city runs (some are ding it now).
That will leave some long runs that politically we should keep, but may not make much business since. Hard choices would then have to be made.
Maybe a lot has to do with (like Phil says) Amtrak's lousy record. Look at the Houston example, in 1983 they didn't have a mass transit rail system, now they do & folks are using it.
Mr t__:^)
"Look at the Houston example, in 1983 they didn't have a mass transit rail system, now they do & folks are using it."
Houston has rail transit? Really, not so much! Methinks you meant Dallas.
Whew! I thought I'd missed something. It's Dallas - and McKinney Avenue brought streetcars back to Dallas before DART did (remember, Light Rail is really a marketing tool - those big LRV's are just big streetcars), just like BSM (Baltimore Streetcar Museum) brought streetcars back to Baltimore 22 years before the MTA did with those big white LRV's.
Sorry guys, I did it again ... It is DART, who has new LRVs now.
Read all about it in the March/April issue of "Mass Transit".
Houston has buses with Cubic fareboxes, the prototype of what NYC bought, accept it takes bills.
Mr t__:^)
I have a Subway maps from around the world from 1961 all the way to today, including a 1948 NYC Subway map. Which maps are already worth some money? Which ones I can put on auction in school or sale?
James Li
Try ebay at www.ebay.com, the world leader in auctions. There's somebody out there who will want them. I have bought 1940s Hagstroms from ebay.
There seem to be a few dividing lines in map values for NYC subway maps.
For "official" maps, the '64 Worlds Fair map seems to be one dividing point. That map or earlier seems to command significantly more money than later ones.
Than I would say there's another break for pre-MTA maps, the B of T maps like your 1948, which I would consider desirable.
Then much higher are pre-Unification maps.
Go to eBay and search on completed items for "new york map" or "subway map" to get some ideas of values.
However, big warning!! eBay prices are really dicey--maybe depending on how the item is described or who or how many people happen to be interested in your item at the time. I've seen great items which, in my opinion have gone for considerably less than inferior ones.
Always include pictures of whatever you're offering.
I'm glad I didn't loose my shirt on the strip -- just my dignity.
I really missed my NY subway system! Las Vegas has some kind of lame bus system called CAT (Citizen's Area Transit -- it even sounds lame). I had a car to get around, and believe me -- they could use a rail transit system. As a matter of fact, while there, my friend mentioned how the city is trying to negotiate with MGM-GRAND HOTEL and BALLY'S to integrate their shared monorail system in some kind of more general city-wide rail system. It would be a public-private partnership which could mean it would be built alot faster than would happen if it was just municipal funded. I'd like to see that happen.
BTW, I HAD to visit Hoover Dam while in Vegas and it is one of the most spectacular sites in these here United States. You gotta go there, particularly if you enjoy technical marvels of engineering (like the NYC Subway system -- a shameless plug ;-)
The Vegas strip included an erupting volcaneo in front of The Mirage Casino/Hotel (every fiften minutes) and a very well coreographed pirate ship battle by Treasure Island Resorts (8:30, 10, and 11:30 pm nightly).
Las Vegas is trying to become "Disney-fied" like Times Square(i.e. family-oriented), but this may not backfire since casinos strictly forbid anyone under 21 from entering upon or using their facilities.
Doug aka BMTman
Welcome back! And of course, they've got the one-armed bandits in the airports and everywhere else as well. They do a good job of keeping the kids away from them, though - I've seen a security guard at McCarran even tell an adult with a sleeping baby in a backpack that they had to leave the child with someone else while they fed quarters.
I don't suppose you stopped by my daughter's house to see the two sweetest grandchildren in all the world? :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hate to say it, but the CAT system in Las Vegas is one hell of a lot better than the previous system! CAT is operated by ATC/Vancom for the Clark County RTC.
The previous "system" was actually run by Gray Line of Las Vegas. They had an aging fleet of T6H4523N's, T8H5308A's, that they owned, plus five 1980 RTS's, 12 1982 Flxible Metro's, and 13 1987 Gillig Phantoms that the City of Las Vegas/County of Clark had bought for them to use. The "Strip" route was a 24-hour operation with 15-minute service round the clock and usually got the T8H5308A's and the RTS's. Then there were 12 routes which went around the whole valley with hourly service and used everything else. The system then REALLY sucked. The drivers had the WORST attitudes towards passengers that I have ever experienced in my 48 years. That is one facet that REALLY improved when CAT took over -- the new company would NOT hire any of the ex-Gray Line drivers.
There was a legal battle over the "Strip" route when CAT first started operating. Gray Line felt it was THEIR "run" so they continued to operate it. Funny thing was, they charged a buck and a half for fares while CAT charged only a buck. And CAT's buses all had working air conditioning, something GL's buses didn't always enjoy. GL hung on, and was finally given a cease-and-desist order for the "Strip" route and after a few months of running around basically empty, they gave up running transit in Las Vegas. Once CAT became the exclusive operator of the public transit on the "Strip" they raised the fare on that route to $1.50 though the rest of the system is a buck. No charge for transferring from one of the other routes to the strip, either. The higher "Strip" fare is just to soak the tourists!!! (If any of you are transit employees ANYWHERE, CAT will honor your employee passes if you are in Las Vegas, that is their policy!)
CAT also runs some casino-employee only shuttles to the CA-NV state line; for these runs they have some ex-Greyhound 102A3's. CAT also had a "satellite" operation way out in Laughlin, too -- 95 miles from Las Vegas. There, they use some smaller buses (the whole town is about two miles long....)
Oh, I forgot -- the city/county also had bought four New Flyer D60 high-floor articulated buses for GL's transit operation back in 1990.
I think CAT took over in 1992 -- and all the city/county purchased buses were transferred over, slowly repainted (believe it or not, waaaay down in Riverside, California!!). CAT also took immediate delivery when they first started, of 90 NFI D40's.
They now have about 70 NFI and NABI artics, a few dozen NFI D40LF's, along with all the other equipment I mentioned above.
Cat started about March 92, and use a Grid Numbering system like LAs 100 s North and South 200 East and West 300 Strip busses, they keep changing routes all the time, each one better then the last one. You could buy a bag of tokens at the downtown Transit Center and save about half fare on the busses. I still have mine from when i lived there in 94 and my wife took the bus back and forth to work. They were still accepted early this month when I was there for a day. The even have downtown to McCarren service direct on a 20-30 minute headway via Maryland Parkway
Last night I found among some of my junk the 1985 color brochure detailing the Manny B. track work and its effect on 6th ave and B'way lines. "3 Months Ago, Residents Of Queens Were Mad As Hell. Guess What, Brooklyn, Bronx And Manhattan?"
The four-page brochure clamed that the major track work would take "approximately 10 weeks" from 8/10/85 to complete, with an additional four months of midday delays caused by the NY DOT's work. BWAH-HA-HA-HA-HA!!!
That's almost worth making a copy and sending it to the Post or the Daily News -- they love to do stories where they can throw official PR crap back in some public agency's face.
10/28/99
Gee,that is funny! However,I guess that the Manhattan Bridge was in worse shape than they thought. You know it's like an iceberg! You see the tip of the iceberg and think that's all there is. But when you look beneath the surface,there's a hell of a lot more to it than you think!
Bill Newkirk
Send it in to the News. They've been primed for outrage by my letters in the past. If nothing else, we'll get the MTA blaming NYC DOT for the delay. And vice versa. Who knows, maybe we'll get lucky and some civil servant will let it slip that the bridge requires replacement.
While a Xerox should go to the papers, you should save the brochure in hopes of finding one of the 1968 bond issue handbills advertising the new 2nd Sub which we should have had over 25 years ago. Great companion pieces!
I know that R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42 all have 100 HP. The R44, R46 have 115 HP. How much did they have in older cars and how much are the new ones going to have?
Cars as delivered from contracts R10 to R-42 utilized 100 H.P. traction motors. The car classes above that were overhauled received 115 H.P. except R30 Westinghouse, R27, and R22 and older.The R1-9s had two 190 H.P. traction motors on the number two trucks. As far as the new cars are concerned, the ones built by BOMBadier will have so many problems, they will be adapted for service in the Beach Pneumatic Tunnel and traction motor horsepower will be the least of the TA's problems.
R-1 through R-9 had 2- 190HP motors on the power truck
R-10 through R42 all were delivered with 4- 100 HP motors
R-44 through R-68A were delivered with 4 115 HP motors.
All cars received 115 HP traction motors during overhaul (R-28 through R-46)
R-110A has 4 - 150 HP motors on the power cars (3 phase 4 pole AC)
R-110B has 4 - 202 HP motors on the power cars (3 phase 4 pole AC)
R-127/R-134 have 4 115 HP motors too.
My answer to that question is: NOT ENOUGH!
But on a lighter note. Steve, I do believe that you throw in a tidbit of misinformation to see who picks up on it. We all know the trash motors have more H.P. than the road cars.
This may come as a suprise to you but R-46, R-62 and R-127/R-134 use GE #1257E1 traction motors, rated at 115 HP. They also use the same gearbox. Since the R-127/134 are heavier than the R-68s. I can not account for their better performance.
They also use the same gearbox. Since the R-127/134 are heavier than the
R-68s. I can not account for their better performance.
Say what? How can those little R127s with no AC be heavier
than a 68?!
It sort of suprised me too but according to my often quoted reference source "Revenue & Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual", the R-127 weighs in at 103,000 Lbs while the R-134s weigh in at 102,000 Lbs. The R-68s weigh in around 93,000 Lbs. I can think of a few reasons for this. Perhaps the cars are weighted to keep them in AW3 since they need the extra power for pulling.
That would make sense...ballasted down for traction. Where do they
stash the ballast though? I don't recall seeing any large sections
of the interior filled with steel blocks. At any rate, concerning
performance, what is the status of the ECR on those cars?
Field shunting mod is supposed to be done on all non-revenue motors as well.
The BMT Standard Motor Cars had 2x140 HP for 280 HP per car.
The Triplexes had 4x200 per UNIT for 800 HP per unit.
todays subway cars have 4 115 hp motors for 460 horses
According to Bombardier, the R-142s have 112 kilowatts (150 of that other unit, that ironically, Watt invented). Also, is bogie what Canadians call trucks?
This is Civic Center
The next stop on this X train will be Midtown.
Hi Folks, Last night, A friend of mine told there was an accident at the Bay Shore RR Station Yesterday Morning?? A woman was struck by a train. There was no service for about 5 hours. Does any one else have any other details about this? Sorry for the morbid subject. Regards, Tom.
See the earlier thread entitled Strange LIRR rerouting. No details, but lots of discussion on the reroutes it caused.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It can't be the reason for the rerouting. Bay Shore is East of Babylon and so its before the split between the central branch & the Babylon Branch. I heard there was someone hit in Bethpage.
It was apparently a suicide according to several eye witnesses. An 84 Y/O woman walked around the gates at Windsor Rd. and was struck by a NY&A freight heading to Bridgehampton....She died instantly.
Windsor AVENUE is the crossing in Brightwaters, about one mile west of Bay Shore.
I don't go into NYC much and use the subway so I have some excuse for asking this question. A long while ago I was in NYC and went on a little subway field trip. To pay my way I bought subway tokens, simple. Last mo. had to make mad dash from GCT to Penn Sta. While waiting in line to buy a token I noticed that alot of people had this new "MetroCard" TM. I also noticed a homeless looking guy standing by the turn style, a stack of MetroCards TM in his hand, swiping people through for a $1.50. That way looked much faster than standing in line so I took advantage of his little service. My questions are as follows:
1) Is this legal? Do I risk having Rudy's storm troopers throw me in jail if I am caught by-passing the line?
2) How does this whole MetroCard system work?
3) How much profit was this guy making?
I come from around Philly and the only cards SEPTA has are weekly and monthly unlimited use passes.
What ever happened to tokens and do the turnstyles still accept them or change?
Yes, the tokens are still in use. But the turnstiles haven't taken change in decades.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, but the now archaic and useless token will be phased out over the next few years. IMHO, they should have phased them out already.
This is the last stop on the FTA. Fantasy Transit Authority
The guy who was swping people in for $1.50 was most likely abusing the one-day-pass Metrocards. As you said he had a stack of them- each one can be used at any given station once every 18 minutes, so he just had to make sure not to use one twice in that timeframe. So, say he shelled out for 20 cards - they're $4 each, so that's $80. He can do 20 people each 18 minutes or about 66 people an hour for an income of $99 an hour. After the first 54 people it's pure profit. It's against the regulations but I'm not sure if it violates any law. At worst he'd be ejected from the station only to go to some other subway station to pick up the trade. Nice scam. Beats working. :)
-Dave
I remember when the 30 day card first came out one of my friends who commuted to grand central commented that he could probably recover most of the cost by going up to the last person on the line and offering to swipe them in for $1 every time he went through there.
Another time we were getting on the 6 at 28th street. There was a huge line. My buddy from NJ got in line, and a guy came up and offered to sell him a token for $2. Being in a hury, he bought the token despite the outrageous markup. But hey, the guy seemed to be getting a lot of takers. Only in new york.
[The guy who was swping people in for $1.50 was most likely abusing the one-day-pass Metrocards. As you said he had a stack of them- each one can be used at any given station once every 18 minutes, so he just had to make sure not to use one twice in that timeframe ... It's
against the regulations but I'm not sure if it violates any law. At worst he'd be ejected from the station only to go to some other subway station to pick up the trade. Nice scam.]
I have heard of people being busted for that scam, although I'm not certain what law would be involved. There might be something about unauthorized sale of fares. In any event, the cops could confiscate the cards, which would put the scammer out of business.
Its not a scam. You are charged the same price for a ride, you get to skip the line and a bum makes a good, honest living. Everyone wins! Well maybe not the MTA.
I've seen similar schemes here in Chicago, especially back when the CTA still used tokens. As it turns out, there were certain foreign coins that were almost the exact same size and shape of the tokens (or at least close enough to fool the turnstyles), as well as being dirt-cheap compared to US currency.
The guy would buy a huge quantity of these slugs at a currency exchange, and stand at a turnstyle allowing people to pass through the turnstyle for $1.00 each. (CTA's base fare is $1.50). Assuming the slugs cost a fraction of a normal token, this turned out to have a rather nice profit margin for the guy, as well as a break for the commuters. The only loser is the CTA, but one could make an argument that considering the way the CTA wastes our tax dollars, what goes around comes around.
Can't say I agree with it on ethical grounds, but I gotta give the guy points for creative thinking.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
yeah, slugs used to go around new york too, before the metrocard ate all the tokens up. I remember the ones that matched the bullseye token...they had the same design and color scheme, just no writing.
I think the funpass scam sounds dope.
At the GCT transit museum shop there is an exhibit of the various slugs used over the years.
Wow! The GCT Transit shop has an exhibit on various token slugs used over the years? Sounds brilliant -- why don't they open a History of Scamming Museum here in New York???
SubDude
I thought that was the DEFINITION of NYC :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Are they going to start running a workshop on Metrocard hacking?
RUE4the scam
I still get slugs in the turnstiles! at my station I get some foreign coins that are registered in the tokens. I have even opened sealed bags of tokens and found slugs.
If we see anyone selling tokens or MetroCards or admitting others and collectintg money we are to call police immediately and the person(s) will be ejected or even arrested.
Due to security I weill not elaborate further- please do not ask.
Speaking of Chicago, at my station some guy's card would not work. I asked to check the card and looked at the card before putting the card into my computer.Yes- you guessed it. The card was from Chicago and I told the guy that Chicago cards arwe not good in New York- I made him pay his fare which he did- he did not realize he used a Chicago Card. (I never put the card in my computer. I also look the card for obvious problems before putting it into the computer such as bent/damaged/dirty/already expired. etc.) Which each new scam I discover I use that knowledge for future card schemes.
it's still theft of service and no one wins epecially the riders. The novelty of ripping off the system is cute to some but the riders who lose out on better service fare increases or cuts in service are the real losers. Yeah the scammer may make a profit for the time being but now your tax dollars go to the police officers who arrest the criminal that they are now they have to go through the court system if the charges aren't dropped, soounds nice but we all get f**ked when this crap occurs..
Actually, at a complex like Penn Station, you can probably make even more. After all, you can swipe away at the 7th Avenue end until each card is used, and then mosey on over to the 8th Avenue end and swipe some more -- without even having to wait for the 18 minute lockout to expire.
With a devious mind like mine, I sometimes wonder why I go to work each morning.
Chuck
Is there any reason you didn't use the Metrocard? You could have gotten free rides, free transfers and unlimited rides. You can't get any of these thing with the incredibly useless token.
It was a one-time, one-way trip from GCT to Penn Station so I could catch PATH at 33rd St. and head into Newark to meet someone flying into Newark international.
Oh, if that's the case, then by all means use a TOKEN. Those Single Ride tickets from the vending machines are so stupid.
RUE4the ticket.
To me the homeless guy seem to be the best thing going. No line, no wait, no hassle PLUS I'll bet he accepts curmpled up bills, pennies, 1/2 dollars, Susan B. Anthony Dollars, jewlery, food, etc..
The MetroCard comes in two basic flavors: Value & Unlimited:
- Value: you get a free ride if you buy $15, a free transfer every time you pay a fare (dip/swipe), but you have to use the transfer in 2 hours. Up to 4 folks can travel on one card. Caution the LAST fare you pay on the card does NOT give you a transfer.
- Unlim. One person can: ride all day; all week; all month on one card
Mr t__:^)
What do you mean the last fare paid doesn't give you a transer? I always buy a $15 card and always transfer from the subway to a bus or vice-versa without a problem.
-- Kirk
>>>1) Is this legal? Do I risk having Rudy's storm troopers throw me in jail if I am caught by-passing the
line? <<<
Hmmm...you say you don't get into NYC much, yet you know enough about the mayor to mention "Rudy's storm troopers." I suppose the imposition of a little law and order on a city that was lacking it heretofore means Giuliani has 'storm troopers'? You seem to know more about NYC than you let on.
I just spent last weekend in New York and had a wonderful time. It was almost four years since my previous trip and this time I spent a great time of the time on the subway. First of all, I'd like to thank Paul Kronenberg (a.k.a. HeyPaul) for devoting his Saturday to showing me around Brooklyn. We did the No. 3 to New Lots, the revitalized Franklin Shuttle, took the B41 down Flatbush, toured Brooklyn College, took the B44 through Williamsburg, Greenpoint and back on the G, then out to Metro. Ave. on the M. I saw neighbourhoods riding on the bus that I never knew existed. Paul showed me the boards which the conductor points at to indicate the train has stopped in the right spot. The whole day was a lot of fun.
When I arrived I purchased a 7-day pass which is a bargain. Too bad they don't sell them at the airport but I suppose they'd need a machine to activate them at point of sale. I did notice that I often had to swipe the card to open the turnstyle. This seems to be a problem as I noticed others going through the same thing.
My comments on the Franklin Shuttle are that it is really quite beautiful - especially with the new tile work and mosaics, but I am sad to admit, it somehow takes away from the original look, despite the fact they recreated the "original look" at the Park Place and Franklin Stations.
I noticed that a number of runs, especially in Brooklyn, seem to be quite slow. Is this due to tight curves or is it a cost-cutting measure to increase track and train life?
In general, I found New York to be cleaner, the subway safer and not once did I feel nervous when riding it. Say what you will about the mayor (and I don't necessarily agree with all his policies), but for a tourist, it makes it a much more pleasant experience. I just wish he'd let us ride through the loop at City Hall on the 6.
Next trip I'll try the Newark subway. I hear the PCCs there are in their final days.
Glad you had a good time. Pass the word: there is a city outside Manhattan, and tourists can go there by subway (just as those who live in it can go to Manhattan by subway).
Aaaah, Ian. Thank you for the kind things you said about our day long travels last Saturday. But you ruined the image I have been carefully trying to fashion for myself on this site of being deeply unhinged. Who knows to what extremes I will have to go to now to reinstate my bad name?
I still haven't found an answer to those cubbyholes on the tile walls on the L line, that really seemed to offer no protection for someone down on the tracks. If it was just a decorative touch, they really seemed to be go out of their way. Maybe they were meant to serve as protection for the mice when a train comes in.
Ian,thanks for making it a great day for me. I haven't ridden transit with someone who really enjoyed it in many many years.
And remember folks, on 1-1-2000 the seed pods that I acquired from The Invasion of the Body Snatcher producers will have hatched and we will have a new fleet of old cars with whistles, incandescent lights, good old air compressor and air brake sounds, and good old Mike Quill to take us into the new Milennium.
And the Judge can drop dead in his black robes.......
Yeah Dan. Mike Quill was a real piece of work. John
Lindsey came into office right before the strike,
and promised to change the way transit negotiations
were handled. From that point on, Quill referred to
him as Mayor Lindsley. ( In fairness to Lindsey, I
think of his mayoralty as being a good period. He
reached out, maybe too far for some people's tastes,
but he projected a sense of caring. I know in
recent years he has not been well, but I wish him
well. I think he's still alive. )
The other really great Quill quote I remember
witnessing was during a press conference around the
time of the strike. He advocated a limit in the
salaries paid to the bosses of something like
$30,000. One of the reporters reminded him that he
was making more than that and asked him how he would
be affected? He said he would be screwed. ( I
think I have that right.) Anybody remember that
one?
They don't make them like that anymore,do they? As far as mayors are concerned, watching the news, Ive finally figured out when Rudy's either lying or gotten caught doing something for politcal expediency (i.e. when hes kissing a particular groups butt to get votes; for example, this whole art thing at Brooklyn College..). The bigger the lie or kiss up,the faster he talks, the more saliva builds in his mouth, and the more he sounds like Daffy Duck! I swear!! I pointed this out to someone, and now they complain they cant watch the news without cracking up! (well..more than usual that is..) I Know Dave, I Know..Way Off Topic.....
This must be clarified, the controversy is with the Brooklyn MUSEUM, not COLLEGE. The college is a city agency, the museum is not.
OOPS!!
Lou: It might surprise you and then again it might not, but you're antipathy for Rudy doesn't even touch the surface of my disgust and
contempt I have for Hillary, that rotten, elitist %$#@*&^%$#.
Quill was an old-style union boss while Lindsey was one of the first "TV Era" political candidates, after JFK -- he looked so darn good, he had to make a good mayor.
Quill took him to the cleaners on the 1966 contract, which opened the door for all the city's other municipal unions to ratchet up their contracts. That led eventually to all the financial fun of the mid-1970s and in part to the creation of the MTA in 1968 (in order to let Rocky and Bill Ronan handle the contract talks the next time around)
The MTA was also formed so Rockefeller could neuter Robert Moses, whose famous comment about Lindsey was "If you elect a matinee idol mayor, you get a musical comedy administration."
We're are constructing a web page with highlights from the Ulster & Delaware charter of SoB #9 and R-16 #6398. Here is the first picture scanned: http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/No9_jp60.jpg.
I'll post here again with the finished URL.
It's a good start, Evan. Thanks for the ride.
-Stef
I scanned all my pictures and would be glad to send them to whoever wants them
The web page with pictures of the Ulster & Delaware special is now available. It's linked to the Trolley Museum of New York page at www.mhrcc.org/tmny/.
If others have pictures they would like to contribute, I would be happy to add them to the page.
--Evan
Looks like it was a fun run Evan!! Looking forward to seeing more from TMNY.
If anyone lives near a Outlet store that has a KB Toy outlet, you may want to check and see if they have any Corgi Busses and Street Cars. I was in Michigan and Vegas earlier, and bought a St Louis PCC Trolley and a couple Old Look Busses under $20.00 each. The mgr in Mich said they were being sent to the larger outlet stores
Hmmm, $20.00 is even less than wholesale cost for Corgi PCC models.
Corgi is so overstocked with PCCs that they've been dumping them to wholesalers for less than $8 each. I know a hobby shop that picked up a couple of mixed cases from a distributor not known for the best prices for about $11 each.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not good news for museum gift shops already stocked up with PCCs at the original price... It already was a disappointing seller for us from the beginning.
I think ALL the Corgi items were bad sellers for EVERYONE. They originally produced 5,000 of each paint scheme on the first two or three runs of the buses and PCC's.
And now you see loads of them everywhere -- Tuesday Morning stores, KB Toy Outlets, etc. going for anywhere from $11.95 up to $19.95. Even KB dropped their price from last year -- they were $24.95 and now are down to $19.95. Model expo Inc. in Hollywood, Florida, was selling the buses at $13.33 each recently, but they are out of them.
Now Corgi is limiting production runs of any new releases to 1,500 copies. Guess there were about 3,500 winding up in the liquidation outlets!
Which Trolley s do you have and for how much. I Have a St Louis and a SF Muni, and hope to have a LA Car Soon
You can see what the Trolley Museum of New York has in stock in Corgi PCC models by using this link: http://www.icatmall.com/tmny/. Once you enter the store, click on Collectables, then on Corgi. Near the middle of the screen describing the model is a list box for Livery.
The price has not changed. We haven't decided what to do, if anything, about the pricing yet.
--Evan
Thanks Evan, Let me know if and when you lower prices
Spent part of my lunch hour at TA Museum store at Grand Central (If you're wondering how this worker from College Point could spend his lunch hour there see my post on BusTalk). Picked up a copy of the LIRR 2000 Calendar. The front cover has a double decker & the rear one a "C-Liner". Inside is a nice mix of equip. my only complaint is that they didn't label the equip., e.g. FA, M-1, SW-1000, etc.
Also picked up a unique MC holder, MC on the front & tokens on the back.
Mr t__:^)
I just read Thurston's post about going 40 to 50 on
the Q. When a motorman's cab door is open, I often
like to watch the digital speed read out. And
rarely have I seen it reach 40. How is the max
train speed controlled since they put the 40 mph
restriction in? I don't imagine it is a controlled
speed like they have in Washington. Can a train do
better than 40 on flat track, assuming the system is
working right?
There are still several lengths of track that are posted above 40 MPH (14th St. Tunnel is 50, for example), but you're right that 40 or slower is the rule over almost all of the system now. Speed controls are physically enforced by installing grade timers; the only thing keeping an operator from going above posted speed on track without GTs is fear of getting caught by supervisors, which seems to be almost as effective.
Those Grade Timers sure took the spark out of my 10/21/99 ride on the run between Franklin Avenue and Atlantic Avenue on a Northbound Lexington Avenue Express in Brooklyn. I remember that run from my high school days, when that run was really a ride. It sure is not the same.
Why are they adding so many of them now? If they weren't required before they probably aren't required now. It's not like the trains are "getting out of control" and going too fast.
Dave. I am not a techie, but I believe you are
wrong when you say that the only thing keeping train
operators from exceeding speed is fear. I went
digging through a bunch of ERA bulletins, and in
August 1966 there was an article about the TA
modifying the propulsion systems by having the
traction motors operate with no field shunting. Now
I don't really understand what that means, but they
went on to say that the modified cars would then
have a maximum speed of 40 miles per hour on
straight track. Interestingly, they said that the B
types placed in service in 1914 had a max speed of
43 mph, while the R-10's had a max speed of 48 mph.
Of the current equipment, when delivered the R-62A's
had a max speed of 55 mph.
It is my memory that this was done because it was
found that there were many places in the system
where the distance between signals was not great
enough to guarantee that a tripped train going
through a red signal would come to a complete stop
before plowing into a stopped train in front of it
that was protected by those signals. Something like
that, I think. I think the Federal government was
breathing down their necks about this safety issue
So the question: Are these modifications still in
effect, and are the trains able to exceed 40 mph on
level track?
The information about the modifications and max
speeds was paraphrased from the article from August
1996 issue of the New York Division ERA Bulletin.
40 MPH. Ha ha ha ha. I feel sorry for New York. On Philadelphia's BSS I have been on express trains going up to 64 MPH. Even some BSS locals get higher than 40. I don't know about any other line because the BSS is the only one with a speedometer that I can see. It is also the only one with an express track. If only our commuter rail went that fast ;-).
Can you think of any subway systems that go faster?
I think on the Washington Metro I've seen the
digital speedometer over 70.
Isaac did you ever ride the Bullets on the
Norristown line? In their last years, they had a
digital readout which I think I saw get near 50.
Do you go back aways to when they had the original
Broad Street cars? If they ever got those things up
to 50 or 60, they would have destroyed the hearing
of most of the riders. I really loved the whine
and roar of those cars. They were louder than our
R1/9's.
I haven't been to Philly in about a year. I like
the place. Back maybe 30 years ago, when I first
went there, I was shocked to find the Horn & Hardart
Automats there. I like to watch the cars come out
of the Portal at 36th Street and watch them go
through their switching. I rode the trolley buses
for the first time maybe just a year or two ago.
Philly's Transit Museum's shop has our Transit
Museum's shop beat by a mile. They have much more
interesting stuff for buffs in the way of magazines
and videos.
Is the old prison that they turned into a tourist
place open all year round. I'd like to take a look
inside the place. Anyway regards from Fun Pass
City paul
As Gomer Pyle would say - Golllleeeee, 64 miles per hour you say. Gee makes me almost want to get up and move to Philly. Now if you only had 6,000 cars or 468 stations people might take more notice of your system.
While on the subject of Philly subway lines and speed. Does anybody have a guess on the top speed for the Frankford El (M4) cars?
As was said of ACELA, its not the Max speed its the average speed. That's 15 to 20 mph tops these days on the ride in from Brooklyn. It takes an hour or more to get from the edge of the borough to Midtown, 15 miles away. Not including the walk at both ends.
Steve--- I take exception to your citing of New
York's stats of number of cars and number of
stations as proof of anything. Philly is a smaller
system, but they still have trolley cars and trolley
buses rolling there. New York's system has
benefited from a lot of money pouring into it, but
some of the ways they have spent that money leaves a
lot to be desired. Philly had day passes and
monthly passes long before we did, as well as Boston
and from my limited travels Fort Lauderdale Florida.
The biggest system --yes. Go back to the days of
deferred maintenance here, and what kind of record
in derailments, track fires, trains out of service
did we have?
As I stated before a couple of weeks before, When I rode BART out the the SF Bay Area, the tran was coasting thru the Bay Tube at 88-89 mph.The train was running late so that is why the computer let it go that high, normal speed thru the tube is 75-80 MPH, avg speed is 55 mph between most stations outside of the SF Downtown Area, because the stations are close together.
I have been on an Atlanta North Line MARTA Train in 1996 (in the median strip of GA 400) that was at 75 mph according to its speedometer).
Depending upon how you wish to classify it as a subway, I have clocked a Dan Ryan Line train in the median strip of the Dan Ryan at about 57 mph more than once. But I couldn't see the speedometer in the new Subway portion so I really can't say about the subway.
Also from what I've heard the Dallas DART Light Rail Line in the underground portion under the North Central Expressway really motors, but I've not had a chance yet to verify the actual speed.
Yes, I'm pretty sure that the Dan Ryan line in Chicago has some points where the cab signals give indications of 70 MPH, as well as the Kennedy median strip line. However, the operator is not supposed to go over 58 MPH (normally the cab signals are set at 55 MPH, except where there are large sections of straight track between stations, where it's set at 70 MPH.)
-Jake
It seems that BART has the highest speeds so far
10/30/99
That's why they used to call it RAPID transit. Not anymore with timers,wheel detectors,R-68's etc.
Bill Newkirk
In Chicago, the max speed limit is 58 MPH. However, the cab signal system does not allow an exact max speed of 58 MPH. So, for most of the system, the cab signals are set at 55 MPH max, but at places with large stretches of straight track between stations (like on the O'Hare line), the cab signals are actually set at 70 MPH, although the operator is supposed to keep the speed at 58 MPH.
-Jake
THE MAX SPEED FOR THE NYC SUBWAY IS CURRENTLY 40MPH, WHAT CRAP!!!!!
I can't belive all the criticism you guys give to the CTA. We only have 22 miles of slow zones out of 222 miles of L track. OUR TOP SPEED ON ALL LINES IS 58MPH!
My favorit party of the ride is when the trains get just up to the maximum speed even if it is just for a few seconds and rapidly de-accelerate to stop.
The Ravenswood (Brown) Line between Belmont and Kimball/Lawrence is a great Example. Just get up to 55 for may 30 seconds max on the Elevated Sections and 35 on the Ground Level stations.
An Evanston Express (Purple Line) Ride just wouldn't be the same at any slower then 55-58 MPH with the train jerking on turns and making noise.
The Ravenswood ride is also equally thrilling with the 3200's which are pretty quiet and don't jerk that much. All you really hear is the motors and the train slicing through the wind.
I just took a ride earlier today from Midway to Kimball/Lawrence. I would have to say that has to be one of the fastest and most interesting rides the CTA can offer.
Anyway, I'm getting off of subject. You guys should go protest to the MTA to atleast bring 55 MPH back. They should be looking towards higher speeds not slower!
BJ
Like someone had posted before if a train had been tripped by a red signal, the train wouldn't stop in time and hit the train in front of it. What happened on the Williamsburg Bridge in '95? It slowed ALL the trains down. Anyway the answer to all of this is to resignal the ENTIRE system.
I think that there are two issues. One money and time. I am not a techie, but it would take lots of money and lots of TA years of doing things to correct the situation.
In the meantime, the TA was presented with a definite safety hazard that they couldn't wish away, and I suppose the most conservative and effective thing to do was to adjust the propulsion systems so that they could stay within the realities of their system. It might make riding less exciting and longer, but they would have been acting irresponsibly legally if they allowed the situation to go on. Theoretical safety took precedence, and probably should have. One sure way to prevent a train operator from exceeding safe speeds is to give them equipment that won't go above safe speeds. I think I saw someone post here that the TA is saving money on power by keeping the maximum speed down. I don't know whether it's true or not.
Perhaps it also serves a spiritual need for the city. Tourists frequently remark on the fast pace of life in New York. Perhaps slowing it down a bit might give us pause to think about our lives and the lives we see around us as we enter the 21st Century.
MTA isn't saving money by operating trains at a slower rate of speed they are saving money on brake shoe pads and cutting wheels. The cast iron brake shoe pads and I think it was also higher air brake pressure made a train stop in a shorter distance in the event of an emergency brake application for which the signal system was originally designed for. Due to many BIE's causing discomfort for the passenger and also creating Steel dust and flat wheels i'm sure saving money using composition brake shoe pads and lowering air brake pressure saved money on wheels going flat from BIE situations also making a softer stopping train for PASSENGER COMFORT AHHH!!! however it now defeats the emergency stopping distance for which the signal system was created. In my opinion TA is liable for not doing something earlier which resulted in the death of Layton Gibson on the Williamsburg Bridge. Remember dead men tell no tales he can't defend himself, there was an article in the news a few years earlier before the accident on the Willie Br which stated that the model cars R40-42 having the poorest braking cars system wide. I've operated R40/40m/42 and found these cars to be the poorest braking subway cars in my opinion compared to other classes of equipment...
Believe me, they are saving money on reduced power costs.
At full field stregnth, the average subway car draws about
half as much current at top speed. 110 amps at 52 or so,
as opposed to today's 55 or 60 amps at 40 MPH. Not to
mention having the fields shunted as the train reached
it's final stages of acceleration also drew around 300
amps for a longer period of time than at full field. All
that adds up to a lot of current.
Do the math: 300 volts X 110 amps X 2 X 10 = 660Kw
OR: 300 volts X 60 amps X 2 x 10 = 360Kw
I don't know what ConEd is charging TA for power but if a
train uses over a half million watts to get moving that's
gotta cost major dough. So cutting that nearly in a half is
BIG motivator to slow things down.
As as we all have seen in recent years, saving money is
ALL those people care about. What you thought that surplus
all came from MetroCard?
NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO N.O.!
THE ANSWER IS TO RETURN THE GODDAMN BRAKES TO WHAT THEY USED TO BE LIKE SO THAT THE SIGNAL SYSTEM CAN PERFORM AS DESIGNED!
The signals were fine for half a century, all of a sudden they are too close? Look at the big picture, not just the propoganda TA puts out.
When you fix the brakes EVERYONE on the train would fly forword when it does trip. The trains would also stop rougher. Would there be more brake ware?
Actually screw that! Yeah! FIX THE BRAKES! By the way, I ain't smokin nuttin! (sniff, sniff)
That is the bottom line. Since man invented the wheel, he found out the hard way that there should be a way to stop it. In the 1980s when subway cars went out to overhauls, the TA found one way of stopping their trains was with a four hundred ton barrier placed in front of it.
Now that'll stop a speding train anytime!
Please pass the COKE! (sniff, sniff)
OOPPSSS
what was the Rolling Stones song?
Driving that train High on Cocaine...
11/04/99
[What was the Rolling Stones song? Driving that train High on Cocaine]
Correction: That was the Grateful Dead.
Bill Newkirk
Mr. Transit Professional: Could explain what the issue with the brakes was around the time of the accident and the investigation afterward in very simple non-technical terms? Thanks.
Whoa, slow down. It's not that one sided. The TA has increased the horse-power and operating speed over the past 50 years without addressing the signal system to any meaningful degree. For example, Q cars had only 240 HP per car and R-9s just 380. Now cars are lighter and have more horsepower.
More HP? The MINIMAL amount of an increase couldn't
account for much. Especially when it's factored in with
the weight increases that air conditioning and structural
stiffeners give. And an R-68 weighs an awful lot. They
were never that fast even at full power.
The signal system was fine. It worked for R-10's and
R-46's in new condition. So what changed when they came
back from upstate? The signals are the same. The tracks
are better now then ever before. The weight is similar,
and the power remained unchanged.
The R-40 is a car that remained essentially the same
except for the power increase. Yes they gained speed. But
all that was at the top end. The acceleration rates
remained. Instead of topping out at 48 or 52, the train
would max at 55 or 57. BUT, you still needed a good
stretch of track to do that anyway. So what was really
different?
Those people in charge who were responsible for altering
the brakes came up with any excuse to explain all the
collisions. So they seized on a collection of minor
conditions and said that all of them together were
contributing factors to the collision problem.
But the fact is they caused the dangerous condition
themselves by choosing cost savings over safety.
There's no way any engineer, or even a bean counting
manager could mistake these facts:
Reducing brake cylinder pressure, reducing the
cylinder piston size and removing critical components altogether was signifigantly going to lengthen
stopping distances.
Since the entire signal system is based on the train
stopping in a predetermined distance, the formula for
spacing signals was now comprimised.
Why? So the TA could reduce the costs associated with trueing wheels that had skid and run flat spots on them.
Speaking of which, Steve: Jamaica has a lot of flat wheels lately. Both 46 and 32. I wonder why?
Can't imagine why they'd be having more mechanical troubles since I left. Actually, this time of year we always see a significant increase in flat wheels. Leaves and condensation on the tracks make for much slipping and sliding.
As for the 46s, I'd have to agree with you to some extent. The performance of R-44 & R-46 cars was not affected by the overhauls. The R-68 and R-68A were delivered with composition shoes. Therefore, there was never any reason to slow them down. Unfortunately, engineering did slow them down for the same stupid reason that the R-68/68As are linked in the same number configuration as the R-44/R-46, for the sake of conformity.
You will be assimilated. Reistance is futile. We are the Transit Authority.
I'd like to continue on the subject of the composition brake shoes and the reduction in brake cylinder pressure. If I read the posts correctly, there was a concern about saving the cost of trueing wheels that had been flattened by more rapid stopping, and customer safety during BIE. Did the TA have a high incidence of reported injuries during BIE before they softened the stops as a result of the changes. I remember years ago that it seemed more dangerous when a train was moving slowly and went into emergency. It seemed to come to a much harder stop. Has there been a decrease in passenger injuries? Has there been an increase in deaths or injuries during a justified BIE when for example someone falls on the tracks or a train goes through a red signal? Was the change in the braking system in any way related to the rash of BIE caused by teenagers pulling emergency cords back some years ago? In fact, is there as much of that going on now as there was years ago? If the reduction in braking power has saved some passengers from serious injury, can we accept the trade-off in speed?
A lot of questions.... And now for some silliness ( just kidding ) heypaul
not to mention that steel dust penetrating just about every electrical apparatus in the system causing signal problems and false feeds in other equipment. I'm sure the least of which is inhaling steel dust be employees... I don't the cost of composition vs cast iron brake shoes but i'm sure that the composition brake pads are probably a poorer quality also since brake pressure was i believe lowered and other compenents changed due to the modification.
Brake cylinder pressure was lowered because the coefficient of adhesion for composition shoes was higher than for the steel shoes. The stopping rates for both were equivalent. This is also true because regardless of a J relay with steel shoes or a J-1.4-14 relay with composition shoes, the majority of the braking was dynamic and not dependent on shoe type or brake cylinder pressure. The real problem occurred during an emergency brake application where there was no dynamic brake application to stop the train. The TA re-calibrated all emergency variable load valves to shorten the emergency stopping distance. However, the significant difference was not in the braking but was two-fold elsewhere.
First, all cars from the R-10 up were designed with a balancing speed of 50 MPH. The R-44/R-46 were actually 80 MPH - another story. After overhaul, these same cars had 15% more horsepower. This was fine on the R-32s, originally built without A/C. The additional weight demanded the additional power. But the R-42s didn't need the extra Horsepower and just resulted in too much speed.
Second, was the nature of the system. Signals were designed for older, slower cars. Trains were running closer together. More work trains mixed with revenue service. Less training of the crews.
I don't think that you need a slide rule for this one......
It is a serious and complicated issue and I really don't go in to it again. However suffice it to say the switch to composition shoes was a wise one. Reducing cylinder pressure as much as was done was foolish. Nuff' said.
Was there an issue that heat caused by friction braking also affected efficiency of the comp shoes? True that in an emergency brake application all braking is now only with friction brakes but those cars in the eastern division(R40/40m/42) under normal braking circumtances these shitcans can't brake for nothin.. On the other hand the R40's on the B before going to 68's those babies brake radically better... another difference I notice since i'm in the A division now the 62a's on the 6 brake superior to the ones on the 1 line why is that?
Composition shoes work best when warm. They are a high
friction type shoe. The real issue with that is the
squealing that so many complained about in the late 80's
that was one of the reasons for removing the inshot valve.
As for differences in performance, most likely the
varations you've experiencd were the result of many
factors combined. Some of them include track lubricators.
Many of them on the line tends to accumulate on the wheels
and leads to longer braking for cars on that line. Another
is a barn that leaves
it's cars with more run down shoes than others. There's an
automatic slack adjuster. But after a certain point it's
effectiveness is reduced. I have seen some cars in service
with the shoe all the way down to the backing plate.
The track testing team. If the instrumentation is
misadjusted, so will be the car. Or a certain car
inspector may adjust slightly different than others. The
standards should prevent this. BUT people are people.
Linked cars play a part today that never was before. The
results haven't been widely seen yet, as the only cars
linked for some real time were the 44/46 which were run
in-consist anyway.
Some other factors include whether the lead car is in as
good a shape as the following ones. A dead car or a really
good car affects how the train feels. Not to mention the
loading and the line itself.
There's an old saying that any train will never be the
same if you rearrange it. Even using the same cars. M.U.
theory has it that they should all be the same. Reality
says different.
What have you been sniffing? Those signals have been on the Willie B for over 50 years in the same location governing cars such as R-9s and new SMEE cars capable of 50 MPH. The Daily News ran an article one year prior to the accident that the overhauled cars in service on the J line took 396 feet from 30 MPH in an emergency application due to readjustment of the braking system and removal of key valves critical to the COMBINED SAFETY between the signals and the trains. THIS IS A DANGEROUS PRACTICE that the FRA would not allow. The answer to this accident is to eliminate System Safety and have an independent agency govern the safety structures that the TA can't. Would you trust Air Egypt if they promise to fix any problems found as the cause of today's crask in Nantucket or would you welcome the FAA's findings? Would you support Boeing's explaination to why they didn't tell anyone that their fuel tanks overheat or demand the explaination due by the demands of a federal agency hired by the United States government to protect it's citizens from the fraud, mismanagement and waste created by big business at the expense of passenger safety?
Good point Harold. I have been advocating independent monitoring of the TA for years. Only then will the TA stop putting dollars ahead of safety.
Chicago has two signifigant advantages that allow them to achieve that wonderful 70 MPH. Something we should also be able to do. One is Cab Signaling. Two is magnetic track brake, which allows full use of number one.
Track brakes are great. I think the NYCTS fleet should have
them. But, you'd have a hell of a time modifying the TA
standard outboard bearing truck with them. Don't forget, the
CTA cars are riding on Clark B-3 or modified B-2 PCC trucks
that were designed from the ground up to have track brakes.
The TA truck is effectively a 1920s MCB design that was considered
obsolete in the 1940s. OTOH, remember the Rockwell trucks!
11/01/99
The Rockwell HPT-2 trucks that were to revolutionize things bit the bust around 1980 due to development of cracks in the truck frames. They were gradually replaced with current style trucks. The R-46's had a softer ride before and now a harder ride. The fiasco involving the trucks caused a wild shift in equipment like R-46's on the (A) , R-10's on the (E)&(F). R-10's on the (E) signs shown fpr Hudson Terminal!!
You know , maybe those old Rockwell trucks still exist today somehow. Maybe they were melted down and metal used to manufacture new trucks obsolete since the 1940's!!
Bill Newkirk
The R-46s ran on the CC in an effort to reduce their actual usage when the truck cracking problem surfaced. AA, CC, and E trains carried Hudson Terminal signs for years when the R-1/9s were around, so chances are people remembered what that meant when the R-10s ran on the E.
I'd rather forget them! Any inboard bearing truck can support them, like the typical M1/Arrow/Comet/PA type as well?
Does CHicago Cta operate 2-3 minute headways during rush hour service? i see some mighty tight radius curves in the loop, are stations located in instances 5-6 blocks apart?
Here in NYC most stations are in close proximity which explains a slow average speed in that respect. Close headways another and tight radius curves another one... however on those straightways I'd love to see some higher speeds such as the Rockaways, 125-59 on the 8th ave and 125-42 on the lexington ave..
On NYC subway cars only the multiple position is affected by NO Field Shunting not switching or series positions. IF your train has dead motors and you're starting your train from a dead stop yeah your gonna have a slow trip and forget about it if you've got more than one dead motor! So far the last remaining horses that rock are the Kawaski R62's on the 4 line the R36 class and R 46's.
"Does CHicago Cta operate 2-3 minute headways during rush hour service?"
The lines vary a lot in their headways. By the public timetables:
3-4 min. on the Red; 15-17 trains (per hour in each direction)
4-6 min. on the Blue; 9 to 14 trains
4-5 min. on the Brown; 12-15 trains
6-7 min. on the Orange; 9 trains
7-8 min. on the Green; 7-8 trains
10 min. on the Purple; 6 trains
As an aside, CTA maintains pretty good headways on most lines even in off-peak hours, by running shorter trains. In other words, they've decided to run more trains but shorter ones rather than fewer, longer trains, which is a good thing from a passenger comfort (nobody likes to wait) and safety (some people feel threatened or vulnerable while waiting) point of view.
"i see some mighty tight radius curves in the loop,"
Isn't that the truth! The Loop turns themselves and the turns coming into and out of the Loop -- the double turn south of the Loop on the Green/Brown so that the line can "jog" west and run parallel to State Street is particularly bad, as is the double turn just north of Merchandise Mart station.
"are stations located in instances 5-6 blocks apart?"
Depends. The stops on the Loop and in the subways downtown are about two blocks apart, give or take. The stops on the elevated portions of the system outside the Loop are usually four blocks apart (main streets being at four-block, or half-mile, intervals). But there are long stretches with stations a mile or more apart -- the expressway median portions of the Blue and Red lines and the new (1993) Orange Line. And, of course, the Purple expresses, which run nonstop from Howard to Belmont (5.5 miles) but only during rush hours on weekdays. On these stretches, trains can build up real SPEED. It's especially fun to be on a train in the expressway median clipping along while the cars a couple of feet below and to one side of you are poking along. (^:
(Chicago runs more frequent service, but shorter trains, off peak).
It can afford to, because it is OPTO.
But CTA ran a relatively frequent schedule during off-peak hours, on most lines, long before OPTO was instituted.
They were doing this even during the "dark days" of the '80s and early '90s, when the CTA was losing passengers in droves, constantly raising the fare and cutting service, never running trains "express" (battery) no matter how behind schedule they had gotten, etc.. The days before they started cleaning up stations, posting and issuing public timetables, implementing the Transit Card and Visitor Card, and opening stations and station entrances instead of closing them.
Mind you, that isn't to say the CTA hasn't made some cuts in recent years. But at least they have been adding and improving service in some parts of the system as they cut it in other places, instead of constant and repetitive cutting. The point is that the management at CTA has finally realized that constant cutting of service means fewer passengers which means less revenue which means more cuts, in a vicious circle. Implementing the right idea isn't always their forte, not by a long shot, but at least they HAVE the right idea, as opposed to 10 years ago.
Why can Chicago, Philadelphia's BSS and other places operate faster more safely, but NYC cannot. It seems to me that speed limits should be raised at least for express runs during the non-rush hour.
And about the WB bridge accident, PATCO, a much more modern system, has a 35 MPH speed limit on the bridge (Ben Franklin) There must be something about bridges that makes it necessary for trains to run slower.
I used to ride the subways on a daily basis,when they had adequate speed. I now avoid the trains as much as possible,in fact I would rather sit on the Cross Bronx during rush hour, in the comfort of my own car, than to sit like a sardine packed on a "rapid Transit" train as it struggles to reach 25MPH. No wonder New York is losing business at such a rapid rate, how can we compete with sloooooooooooooooow trains caused by the 100% mentally incapable MTA management. I remember when going from Pacific to 36 Street or from 34 Street to W4 was actually satisfying because you knew you were going faster then traffic above. Nowadays a bus can propell itself faster than a subway train. I remember when trains were stopped with iron brakes and now they stop with the assistance of the train ahead. I remember when motormen spoke fluent English and understood what red, yellow and green meant. The best thing that could happen to the NYCTA is to suffer a massive earthquake. Just to leave you with an idea as to how the TA has fallen to substandard levels, several years ago during the NYC marathon, one runner utilized the train to get ahead of the pack and to win the race. Image an event happening yoday. The runner would still come in after the guy in the wheelchair even if she wasn't caught.
Yeah, that was the infamous Rosie Ruiz incident in 1980. She insisted she ran the entire race until someome came forward and claimed they recognized her on the subway. There are check points along the way, and Rosie wasn't seen at several of them. She was disqualified.
I have to admit it was a bit disheartening last week to stand at the uptown platform at 86th St. and CPW and see A and D trains lumber past. In the good old days, the R-10s would rip and roar past. If you fixed your sights on one spot, you could count ten cars in about six seconds.
I'm afraid I have to agree. Even with the traffic, it's a lot quicker and more convenient to drive into the city, the only problem is parking.
obviously your not travelling during rush hour hey even weekends when everyone converges on the city and forget about it... above ground traffic in NYC is the worst so i have no idea where you get your info from... unless your Donald Trump parking lots in the city are cost a fortune.
No, I do travel during the rush hour and it's still better than the subway. If I had a free or inexpensive parking spot (and a car, that's another story) I would never ride the subway.
Is TRAIN SPEED the reason for your choice or convenience of your auto being the better answer since I could never see the speed of a train as the answer for my not using public transportation. Cost of car ownership in NYC is prohibitive on just about every level(insurance, parking, tolls). Road conditions in NYC are just about the worst i've seen anywhere potholes and other road defects are all over,the only car worth driving on NYC streets and highways would be Al Bundy's Dodge!!(LOL) My dream car is a BMW 740 and i wouldn't allow that on the mean streets of NY ...
I don't know if it's the speed itself or just the time it takes, but it's faster by car. Even if it isn't, you always sit on the car. The only time when it might not be faster is also the time when the seat thing matters.
Actually the best way to get to Manhattan is by bike. I have 2, a '91 Harley and an '82 Yamaha. The Yamaha is small enough (750) to manuver and junky and rusty enough that I know it will never get stolen. My version of the Al Bundy Dodge is my '85 Buick Century. It only takes a gallon of steering fluid a week and I could park it at work in Bed/Stuy without worrying. However whenever I go anywhere with my 3 yr old son, we take the train. I'm trying to make him a second generation railfan.
During my trip last week, I did manage to ride on a couple of fast trains. The 3 train I took from 72nd St. to 14th, with R-62A 1969 (now THAT was a good year!) up front reached 47 mph as it screamed past 50th St., and kept right on going towards Times Square, not slowing down until we had reached the old turnoff where the original line hung a left to 42nd St. Then there was a 4 train which reached 40 on the Park Ave. straightaway at 23rd St., only to hit the brakes at a GT signal. And, of course, our Q train of slant R-40s zooming along the Brighton line to Manhattan.
I managed to spot R-62As 1958, 1959 (singles coupled together, no less), 1961, and 1962, but no 1956.
I used to ride the subways on a daily basis,when they had adequate speed. I now avoid the trains as much as possible,in fact I would rather sit on the Cross Bronx during rush hour, in the comfort of my own car, than to sit like a sardine packed on a "rapid Transit" train as it struggles to reach 25MPH. No wonder New York is losing business at such a rapid rate, how can we compete with sloooooooooooooooow trains caused by the 100% mentally incapable MTA management. I remember when going from Pacific to 36 Street or from 34 Street to W4 was actually satisfying because you knew you were going faster then traffic above. Nowadays a bus can propell itself faster than a subway train. I remember when trains were stopped with iron brakes and now they stop with the assistance of the train ahead. I remember when motormen spoke fluent English and understood what red, yellow and green meant. The best thing that could happen to the NYCTA is to suffer a massive earthquake. Just to leave you with an idea as to how the TA has fallen to substandard levels, several years ago during the NYC marathon, one runner utilized the train to get ahead of the pack and to win the race. Imagine an event happening yoday. The runner would still come in after the guy in the wheelchair even if she wasn't caught.
It is a shame for you people up there in New York on how unbeleivebly slow your subway trains are. Concsidering it is in my opinion one of the worlds greatest subway systems. But this not why I am making a post. Could someone clear something up for me. A lot of this speed thing started with BJ saying how fast Chicago's trains move. I don't doubt that they do. But he stated that Chicago has 222 miles of subway/EL. Is this actual route miles or total track. I had no idea that Chicago's system was that larege. If this is true it would put it in the same league with New York. Doesn't NY have about 230 route miles of track? Could someone clear this track mileage things up?
NYC has about 230 route miles and 700 track miles. Depending on what was meant, Chicago is either the same size as NYC or one-third as large. The city of Chicago has somewhat less than half the population of NYC, but it covers nearly as much area, since its density is lower.
Back to the point I made earlier about speed. If trains were really hitting 40 miles per hour on the dot between stations, and on long express runs, bridges and tunnels, then perhaps average speeds would be a little better. The real problem isn't a low maximum, its the crawl through switches, over bridges, and along crowded routes. The trains average less than 15 miles per hour overall. Getting the average up to 21 or 22 miles per hour would make life much better on the outskirts of the city.
Management in RTO isn't really interested in that. When
they continually add time to the timetable and write rules
requiring conductors to increase the dwell time in
stations, how could they be?
I have to operate delieberately slow, and even hold myself
sometimes to keep from running early. That's not to say
that the schedules are accurate either. Take the F line
for example. From Stillwell to Jay St. It's almost
impossible to be on time without running slow, and then
even holding the train for a full minute or so at Church
Av. BUT: the busiest portion of the line, between W4 and
5th Av, there is nowhere enough time.
Since Jay St. tower will NEVER allow you to run ahead of
schedule (and I never do) you WILL be late at Queens Plaza
if you operate according to the rules.
Now there is again too much time between QP and 179, but
barely. So most F's arrive just in time. But since the
terminal is frequently choked, you won't actually open the
doors there till a minute or so after your scheduled arrival time.
And since the TA only records trains over 5 minutes late
as officially late, your lateness doesn't count.
Make sense yet?
There are also built in holds in the timetable. These are points in the timetable where it is actually acknowledged that the train will be early and should be held untill it's scheduled departure time. On a midnight run where a connection with another service is desireable OK. But TA has them in the rush hour!
Wanna know why?
So the late trains can catch up to their proper schedule! That way Larry Reuter can tell the public: "we're on time"
(Deliberately slow schedules with built in delays so that the trains can be "on time")
The airlines to the same thing to fudge their statistics. Sounds like the TA is "learning from the private sector," but not from companies known for public service.
Depending on what was meant, Chicago is either the same size as NYC or one-third as large.
I don't have any hard numbers to back me up, but I think it's pretty safe to say that chicago's rapid transit system is about a third the size of New York's. As you indicate, Chicago has a much lower density, as many of the old neighborhoods were built along streetcar lines as opposed to subways or L's.
In NYC, especially Manhattan, it's usually possible to get to a subway station without having to walk more than a few blocks. In Chicago, more often than not, one must take a bus or walk considerably further to get to the nearest L stop. I live in Lincoln Park, one of the most dense residential neighborhoods in the city, and I still have to walk about 20 minutes to the Fullerton L stop. Usually I just grab a bus instead, unfortunately.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Yes, here in Chicago our train and L Stations are spaced adequately apart so fast service can be provided.
This also means that some people are forced to use the buses that live between L stations, but for people who do live near them they provide fast service and stations in the Loop dowtown are are very close like the one platfrom 3 stations in one at Washington/Monroe/Jackson on the Red and Blue Line's.
BTW- What would it take for the CTA trains on the Blue Line's new streches signalled for 70 mph to acually go 70 mph? Trains currently only go the 55-58 max. It still is pretty cool to get up to that speed, but 70 would be even better!
BJ
The recent death at the Bethpage Station (LIRR) calls to mind that an engineer friend of mind used to say that "It must be something in the water in Bethpage." The problem of people going around or under the gates seems to be worse there than any other station I have seen. Unfortunately it's also one of the most dangerous places to do it. One reason is that a train may be discharging passengers on one track while an express, traveling in the same direction passes at 70 MPH. This happens several times a day. For example, 3 times a week the 5:23 express from Jamaica to Ronkonkoma will catch the 5:16 local from Jamaica to Farmingdale at Bethpage. The people getting off the local run around the X-ing gates to cross the tracks in front of their train (to get to the parking lot first). They never hear the whistle of the 5:23. Fortunately I've only seen close calls but I am amazed that the Nassau County PD doesn't stake out that crossing. Aside from saving a life, they could likely balance the county budget there.
Condolences to the family of Jean Catapano on her untimely passing. She was taking the day off to go the Rosie O'Donnel Show. Part of the problem is that there are streets (Stewart Ave on the west and Broadway on the east) at each end of the platforms. Also the tracks intersect the streets on an angle other than 90 degrees. Perhaps the LIRR loudspeakers could annouce the arrival on opposite tracks several times prior to the scheduled arrival so casual riders (such as Mrs. Catapano) have enough time to cross over to the proper platform.
There was a similar problem in Oceanside when I was growing up.
The station there is sandwiched between two crossings and barely fits an 8 car train. When an 8 car train would platform, the rear car would be almost to the street, so the gates wouldn't go up. Frequently, passengers would walk around the gates and behind the stopped train -- thinking that the gates were still down for the train they'd just left -- and into the path of an express train in the opposite direction. There were a number of injuries and near-misses (I don't recall any fatalities) until the LIRR installed a LOUD siren which went off if trains were coming on both tracks. Perhaps such a system could help out in Bethpage.
Chuck
Nonsense!! If the engineer sounds the required signal (Rule 14L) and people chose to ignore it, shame on them . Yesterday, in the wake of the two recent tragedies i was at the Islip Station at Islip Avenue. I just got off the 2:52PM from Jamaica. Along with a dozen or so other commuters, I waited for the train to pass the crossing first although there was ample time for us all to cross. One couple elected to cross the tracks because they saw that the train was not yet ready to move. Apparently they were not aware that a west-bound train is due around the same time.
Nope - no pity for stupid people here. A lot of sympathy for the poor engineer who hit her. Sympathy for the thousands of law abiding folks who were needlessly delayed due to the stupid act. Even sympathy for the people who ride the LIRR, who will end up paying for the inevitable law suit. But no sympathy for the cause.
I do feel sorry for the engineer, but I'm also sorry for the woman and her family.
She apparently was not a regular commuter, and became confused as to where and how to board the train she wanted.
I don't want to beat a dead horse but my last night I took my 2 older grand-daughters (7 and 5) to the library. As we approached the Saxon Ave. clossing on the Montauk branch the lights started to flash. We stoppedand waited. The younger child said "There's a train coming, grandpa!" If she knew it, a 66 year old, mentally competant woman should have known. If you are confused, you stop. End of story!!!
FOrget that she wasn't a regular commuter. Common Sense says you don't go around crossing gates, barriers on dead end streets, pass a firetruck....
If you're THAT stupid, you deserve it.
-Hank
If stupid people deserved a horrible death like getting hit by a train there would be an awful lot less people in the world. Think before you post.
LIRR commuters must realize that the bells and crossing gates don't only apply to motor traffic, but applies to them as well. They are not noisemakers and decorations. There must be plain clothes cops staked out to hand out summonses when this stupid behavior is caught. And let them bitch and moan if they miss their train in the morning.
Well I feel bad for the lady.
How aggressive is the LIRR about closing grade crossings?
I'd imagine they get a lot of flak every time they try. But think how much they cost, not even thinking about lawsuits: Frequent maintainence, complaints about horn soundings, have to flag through them if there is a problem, destroying the schedule, damage and wear to equipment from accidents and debris around crossings, etc., etc. So I hope the railroad is pushing real hard to get rid of as many as they can.
I wonder if the police tend _not_ to give tickets for peds going around gates because they get too much flak if they do...
Around 8:00 AM yesterday, I was at the 205th Street station on the 'D' line. I watched a train leaving the station and out of the corner of my eye I caught sight of some imbicile who thought it would be fun to ride outside of the last car-at least to the next station. Fortunately, we were able to contact the train operator via radio, stop the train and retrieve the miscreant. Do we blame the designer of the train because there is a place for someone ride outside on the R-68? Do we blame the fact that the Railroad tracks and the street do not intersect at exactly 90 degrees? GET REAL !!!
The point is there are too many Jean Catapano's in this world. Granted one act was a concious act of recklessness while the other was absentminded stupidity. The result is the same.
[Part of the problem is that there are streets (Stewart Ave on the west and Broadway on the east) at each end of the platforms.]
Just a correction, Stewart Avenue is the only street that crosses the tracks. A street more or less parallels the north side platform but doesn't cross. The west end of the south side platforms abuts Northrop Grumman property.
My heart goes out to the Crew.
A few years back Newsday did a great two part interview with a LIRR engineer. Port Jeff Diesl express run, non stop from Huntington to Jamica wrong railed with over 21 crossings at grade at speed.
Amazing with this one cab ride the reporter saw almost 7 attempts by people to go in front of the train.
Wake up people, trains don't come with steerring wheels.
Reminds me of a film I saw that was taken from the cab of an Amtrak train in Hamlet, North Carolina by an Amtrak employee working with Operation Lifesaver. A 15-passenger van full of teenagers drove around the gates not once but THREE TIMES in the space of less than one mile. The train was travelling about 60 the first time, 45 the second time, and dropping from that speed BIE the third. On the second "chicken" run the van was visibly buffeted by the wind - I would guess it cleared the train by less than three feet - and on the third run the van clipped the gate, splintering about a foot off the end. According to the commentary accompanying the footage the police, who had been called by the railroad at the engineer's request, were unable to apprehend the youngsters. The footage was clear enough to allow identification of the van but it had been repaired by the time it was located and there was insufficient evidence to identify the driver. This incident occurred back around 1991 or 1992.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In last Sunday's Times, there was an article on Bob Diamond's Brooklyn Trolley Museum. It seemed to say that this coming Sunday he will throw the switch on a 1500 ft run for the trolleys. Will this coming Sunday be open to the public, because later in the article it said that rides would be offered on Sundays, weather permitting. It wasn't clear if this coming Sunday was still in the testing phase.
I contacted the Brooklyn Trolley Museum yesterday and they said it would be okay to come and watch and maybe get a ride (or if they have power problems give a push, just a joke ) . I won't be able to make it tomorrow, because I do have to occasionally tutor some unsuspecting souls. That should be further encouragement for SubTalkers to go there as they won't have to worry about the embarrassment of having to be seen in public with me. If their tests prove successful, I will consider the Brooklyn Trolley Museum to be the operators of the renewed PCC trolley service in Brooklyn starting 1-1-2000.
Hey, Phillip Francis Queeg, did you happen to see what happened to the bunch of strawberries I left over here??
I also found some marbles rolling around
10/30/99
HEY PAUL,
DO YOU HAVE MULTIPLE PERSONALITIES? THAT COULD MEAN MULTIPLE TAX RETURNS!
Bill Newkirk
The one and only
Yes, today we pull the switch and see what gives. We finished the wires at 7:30 last night. Its at the south end of Van Brunt St. Keep in mind, this was supposed to be an unofficial systems test. Were going to start in mid afternoon.
On the same page as the article on Bob Diamond, there was a little history of Brooklyn trolleys. I didn't realize that it was Halloween 1956 that the last two trolley lines B68 and B35 ended operation. Much as I like the C-49 Macks, it was a sad day for Brooklyn transit. I think the first PCC's started here, and despite our turning our backs on them, they still are running--- unlike some new TA experimental rapid transit cars that should have been delivered directly to the scrappers in New Jersey.
But be of good cheer. The recent removal of the new Low Floor Novas because of alleged gas leaks at Ralph Kramden depot, is proof of the profound changes that will soon be occuring. PCC's will run again on Brooklyn Streets, as I have allocated seven hundred of the seed pods to be placed near the Newark Subway shops, and come 1-1-2000 there will be no more diesel fumes. My beloved Macks will return as a hybrid electric wire and solar powered bus.
You hadda remind me. My life hasn't been the same since--it's hard to crush a penny under bus wheels.
By the C-49 Macks may I assume you mean the series 6000 buses that ran out of Ulmer Park and provided the necessary equipment to retire the last trolleys?
If so, I liked them, too, running on 18th-Foster, Bay Parkway-Avenue J but especially on Staten Island.
But they didn't replace the trolleys on Church and McDonald (B35 and B50, not B68) or Coney Island Avenue a year earlier (that was B68) directly.
B50 was disocntinued. B35 used TDH4510 GMCs out of Fifth Avenue and B68 used the same from W5 Street. Later I think B68 came out of Ulmer Park.
Is there any listing anywhere of routes by depot today?
Today the B35 & B68 comes out of Jackie Gleason depot (5th Ave.)
You can always put a penny on LIRR tracks at railroad crossings.
And don't forget: Mack Buses were also used by the Hempstead Bus Company in Nassau and the AvB & East Broadway Bus Company in Manhattan.
Jeff....Great picture!!
Carl M.
The picture was from this site, one of the links on Bus Talk.
The low floor buses are indeed running. I saw three today on the B9
Can we all stick to one, short nickname/handle please? It's kinda getting confusing around here lately.
Thank You
OK
VARIETY IS THE SPICE OF LIFE!!!!!
Chris, you are right on the money. Some of the long winded ID's are starting to remind me of graffiti on subway cars.
Today on Friday, October 29, 1999 is the tenth anniversary of two certain events that happened on the NYC subway system:
1. The 63rd Street Tunnel officially opened in regular revenue service with B and JFK Express trains operating on that Sunday just a decade ago (Q Train would have been running on the weekday schedule the next day). This had occurred after an "open house" featuring free rides on the R-68A's operating between Manhattan at 57th Street-6th Avenue and Queens at 21st Street.
Of course, this line will eventually reach its potential (sort of) when it is finally connected to the IND Queens Boulevard line any day. So far, the rails and switches on the southbound track towards and at 36th Street [Queens] are being prepped and installed as of this writing.
2. While the 63rd Street Line opening day was the "beginning" of an era, there was an "ending" of another on that date of October 29, 1989. For those "Subtalk" posters who have known me, my all-time favorite fleet, the R-10's, ran their last run after an amazing four decades of service in the form of a fantrip chartered by the E.R.A.
The trip started at 59th Street-Columbus Circle at 10:10am EST, and ended at Chambers Street-World Trade Center at 7:45pm EST, and the assigned train cars were s/#3018-3203-3182-2974-3143-3045-3145-3216. Through this "farewell" journey, the trip covered a wide variety of IND and BMT lines, even including the Franklin Shuttle, the Archer Avenue routes (both levels) and an unexpected surprise visit to the 63rd Street Line as well. Our lunch stop was a forty-minute layover at Coney Island around 2:40pm.
Today, there are only two R-10 cars in existence today: #3184, restored "museum" car owned by Railway Preservation Corporation (stored outdoors at Coney Island Yard), and #3189, the R.C.I. Yard - Training School Car at Pitkin Yard. Needless to say, I still miss all of the R-10's to this day.
-William A. Padron
I think I may have ridden the mighty R-10s on the 8th Ave. line in 1984-85...that was one hellofa train.
It amazes me that one type of subway car (R10) evokes such sentimental memories, and yet another subway car (R16) is cursed and reviled. I wonder if anyone gave this poor car the sendoff the R10 got.
R-68 is the modern equivalent of the R-16, what's the modern equivalent of the R-10? The Redbird? R-32?
My vote goes to the slant R-40s. They were the only cars I could think of which even stood a chance of outrunning an A train of R-10s. Those of you who know me know I'm probably the biggest R-10 fan around next to Mr. R-10 himself - William. The way those cars would rip and roar up CPW was second to none. Whenever we had some time to spare on Saturdays before our bus would leave Port Authority, I would take a joyride up CPW on an A train. Everything about them was fast, including the compressors and doors.
The R-10s will forever be synonimous with the A line. Assigning them to that line was one of the smartest things the Board of Transportation - or whoever made the decision - ever did.
The A was the first line, it was the flagship line, it was to use the brand new cars.
The R10s provided Yeoman service for forty-one years and were sturdy and reliable cars, even in their old age. The R16, on the other hand, barely made it over the age of 30, plagued with electrical and mechanical problems, not to mention among the slowest cars ever (they rank right up there with the pitiful R68s). I for one actually LIKED the R16s (though not as much as the R10s) - they were interesting-looking cars, with their porthole storm-door windows, slanted door motor pockets among other features. They borrowed their seat layout (except at the car ends), the stanchion and handhold design, all from the innovative R10.
I propose that we have some reproductions of the R10s made - at least twenty of them, accurate down to the last detail. Perhaps we can have A/C inside, borrowing some principles from the R38s.
Wayne
[they were interesting-looking cars, with their porthole storm-door windows, slanted door motor pockets among other features]
The R-16's received new R-44 style door engines around 1970 or 71, necessitating the "slanted door motor pockets". I believe this was done because the original door engines had a lot of mechanical problems and froze up in sub-freezing temperatures. When the cars were redone, they were painted silver and blue.
While I liked the seating configuration of the R16s, if you ever tried sitting in one of the seats that had the slanted door motor enclosure against it, you wound up with a backache in not time! What a horror, those seats competed with the slant and modified R40 flatbottom seats as the worst seats ever.
Mike H
As someone who never rode in an R-16 (or at least cannot consciously recall doing so), I would like a more detailed description of this problem. I also hate R-40 seats (but I like the other things about the car).
All the cars which originally had padded seats that were later replaced with fiberglass seats in the late 60's (R-7/9, R-10, R-11, R-12/14, R-15, R-16, R-17, R-21/22) were very uncomfortable.
The R-7s with unit numbers up to #1499 retained their original wicker and red-padded seats. Those from #1500 up got fiberglas ones. Those were AWFUL! R-7s from #1450 to #1499 also went to Eastern Division and were mixed in with the other R-7s and R-9s there, so some cars had wicker/vinyl seats and others had fiberglas ones.
Wayne
The R-16 seats were straightbacks, like the R-40s, though at least they came up higher and also had a longer leg surface area. But when the slanted covers were put in, if you sat all the way back and were not a dwarf, your head and the wall would meet a lot earlier than on other cars.
I never experienced this, as I always ran for a window seat on the R16 AND R10.
I was not a TA employee when the R16's got their door modification to be R44 like, but from my experience as a conductor & motorman the doors had a tendency to unlock, but refused to open. I was on the "M" when those cars had their last assignment. Whenever I got one, it was a virtual guarantee that something would go wrong and we would have to go out of service. They were withdrawn quietly and swiftly a few days after one on the way to Ninth Ave. with a very sparse crowd after the AM rush, pulled apart in the Montague tube in an unusual way: both couplers wound up on one carbody and no coupler on the other. Apparently, one drawhead seperated at the carter pin from the car body.
That bring me to another point as to why ACF did deliver a good car despite the arguments presented by those on this site who think they were junk. If anyone remembers the bus crash in Midtown involving the Blitz bus that was missing the 25 cent cotter pin on the brake pedal, they will realize that without proper repairs and maintainance, and tampering of equipment and equipment design by either the repair personel or engineering, any equipment will go to a zero MDBF and even worse, an accident or incident. The slanted door motors was probably the prototype test before the R44 cars came in. If the R17 engines were left in place, the complaints might drop. The R16s were an exceptionally heavy car so you cant blame ACF for the slow speeds, but you can blame the TA for the dead motors. I figures out why we blew the main light fuses the first time we put 600V on the car since it has been up at TMNY. One of the fixtures had smoke and fire damage. When I dropped it on Saturday, I noticed that the lead from the ballast was not only pinched under the fixture but the RCI that reinstalled it didn't bother to tape the extra wire in an area away from the predrilled holes used for the machine screws to mount the fixture to the ceiling. The screw went through the wire and it took 15 years for the wire to finally ground. All cars back in the '70s got bandaids to keep them running. Im finding evidence of lazy personel every time I look under the car. I feel mechanically that the R16 was a good sound car despite the whining.
I can assume, then, that the R-16 was the traction equivalent of GM's notorious RTS-II bus?
Whatever that was, it's obvious that the R16 was universally hated. Perhaps I should change my handle to Mr R-16 so as to have at least one person in here who won't badmouth it endlessly.
Unfortunatley, the only nice thing I can say about this car is that it had very pretty graffitti towards the end, better than most.
#6409's coat of many colours (courtesy of Super Strut II and his friends), and #6422's bath by Flint I (of Queens) were among the most elaborate graffitti pieces I've ever seen. Those guys (along with the likes of Spin, Nod, Pentagram [who liked R6s], Killer I [who liked R44s]) were all over the Queens line in 1973 and 1974.
Wayne
Pretty graffiti? Oh, puh-lee-eee-eeease.
I remember when the A received the R 10s back in 48. I did not like them because the railfan window was much higher then any other train and I could not see out for at least another year
I rode on one of the "B" trains (R40's then) that very morning to check the new line out. I thought Roosevelt Island was kinda cool looking....really, really shiney
I had not thought about it, but it is hard to believe that 10 years have now passed since I rode the R-10's for the last time. I really wonder how many other Sub-Talkers were there.
I find it very hard to believe its been such a long time since the R1-9's. I still think of those cars when I hear the word "subway".
Yeah, especially the IND. Of course, with hey paul's tape, I can relive those marvelous sounds anytime.
I was there - sort of. I had gone into town to check out the Queensbridge line and took a detour on the way home. I wound up at the Fulton/Nassau Street station and was waiting for the "J" train to take me home, when the R10 passed. One end was sporting a "QT" sign.
I didn't realize that the train was on its final run. I found out soon enough and tried to pursue it, but it had vanished.
Wayne
What was on the R68A destination sign. What letter? Also weird was that the R68A normally ran on the D. But used on the free rides
To answer all the questions related to this topic:
1. The R-16's never did get a proper send-off (or "farewell" fantrip) when they were pulled off in 1987. However, the E.R.A. did hold an R-17 fantrip on the IRT Mainline routes in November, 1987 (those cars would be gone about three months later). One of the cars on that excursion was #6688 as a lead motor, where that unit is now at the Shore Line Trolley Museum.
2. I can only say at this point that I am not sure what would be the modern equivlaent of the R-10's today, except that the only remaining fleet of rolling stock built by American Car & Foundry are the R-26/28's (#7750-#7959) operating usually on the #2 and #5 routes. Even those cars are reaching in the 40-year service life range now.
3. The R-68A's used on the free ride demonstrations had their route designation sign displayed as "S" on that day. Also, they used GMC RTS buses to transport VIP guests to the Roosevelt Island station, and two GMC-Blitz GOH buses (#5121 and #5344) to the 21st Street station.
4. There were about 250 passengers on board that farewell R-10 fantrip, including yours truly. I was ticket purchaser #4 for that very memorable excursion.
5. There is one restored "museum" IRT R-12 car [#5760] at the Transit Museum, plus Railway Peservationist Corporation owns car #5782 and R-14 car #5871 (both formerly fire training school units stored at Coney Island). Car #5760 was one of the G.E.-equipped units that did see service even on the Third Avenue Elevated Line in the Bronx from 1969 to 1973.
6. All of the R-12's were removed from passenger service in 1981, followed by the R-14's and R-15's in 1984 (the latter two types made their last runs on the #3 route), but none of them had a "farewell" fantrip so to speak (ditto for the R-21/22's).
7. The R-12/14's outside door controls (electrically-powered instead of the R-10's pneumatic-operated "triggers") would never be used if there were in a mixed consist of different newer model "SMEE" cars (and you never saw them in that case as the middle conductors' position in a train). The "triggers" were used when in operation then on the IRT #7, Bowling Green shuttle (perhaps), and the Third Avenue Elevated in the Bronx.
-William A. Padron
On hte R68A the northern terminal was set "21 St-Queensbridge" but the southern terminal was set at?
There are STILL some R12 or R14 cars shuffling around as rider cars/work motors. Saw a couple of them at Westchester Yard on Wednesday. These beasts are now fifty years old and still going!
Wayne
More answers to more inquires:
1. As early as 1983 or 1984 (during the Ravtich era administration), many R-10's that were deemed needing major repairs (or the like) were simply retired and later sent to the scrap line at Coney Island Yard. There were about 60 to 70 R-10's that met their ultimate fate, and even included the very first car to be built and delivered, #2950 (ex-#1803).
2. Yes, there are still some R-12/14/15 work motors in service (thank you Wayne Mr SlantR40 for that reminder), probably most likely as rider cars. I did see those units last on the #7 line when the gangs were performing track and rail work around Queensboro Plaza.
3. Hmmm...I can only recall the bottom south terminal designation on the R-68A free demonstration trains displayed at "Special" during the free open house of the 63rd Street Line back on Saturday, October 28, 1989. The top north terminal was probably "21 Street-Queensbridge", and the route said "S".
4. Throughout the R-10's long and colorful history, there were only three fantrips: Saturday, October 23, 1976 (w/#2955-3220-3231-3298), Sunday, June 8, 1986 (w/#3136-2966-3101-3013) and the real "farewell" on Sunday, October 29, 1989 as mentioned before in a previous post with the car numbers I had listed. Note: on a rest stop, the 1989 fantrip train actually went into the storage track north of Jamaica Center of the lower level Archer Avenue "J" train route, where the tunnel does extended into a provisional end wall for a possible Merrick Boulevard terminal (there is space for a diamond switch crossover).
For the R-12/14/15 cars, there were no proper sendoffs or farewell finales for those units at all back in either 1981 (for the R-12's) and 1984 (for the R-14/15's). In retrospect, perhaps the closest event to that fleet was when the R-12's assigned to the IRT Third Avenue (Bronx) line (with a few R-14's) and Bowling Green-South Ferry Shuttle were each in used on the route's last respective dates in customer service (i.e. April 29, 1973 for Third Avenue and February 13, 1977 for the shuttle).
-William A. Padron
R-12's 5703-06 were later modified in 1977 for use on the #1 and
#3 lines. And late in 1978, the remaining R-14's and R-15's in
#2/5 service were kept in separate, solid trains by themselves.
I saw some R-14s on the 3, I believe, in October of 1984, and they were not running as a solid train. In fact, I never saw a solid train of R-12s or R-14s on the mainlines. IIRC, this was done so conductors wouldn't have to use the trigger boxes. William is right: those cars were never placed in the middle of a train at the conductor's station.
From the sentiments expressed, it appears that many people loved the R-10s. I don't recall such fanfare about the IRT versions (if you would call it that) named the R-12 and R-14. When did the R-12/14s go to the great subway yard in the sky? And is there at least one of them left somewhere? (other than in pictures._
Isn't there one at the Transit Museum?
Yep, R-12 5760 is all decked out in its original color scheme. It's coupled to the R-15 on display (whose number escapes me at the moment).
It is R15 #6239, Steve.
-Stef
If I remember correctly the R-12 had the exact same "climb up between the cars" door controls as the IND R1-10's although I have never seen them being used. They were always hitched to other IRT cars in the middle with cab controlled doors.
10/30/99
Jeff,
Yeah,but in their last years,R-14's maybe 12's were seen on the ends of trains because the conductors hated them. You would too if it was raining or snowing.
Bill Newkirk
According to Larry Redbird R33, the R12 was retired in 1981 (there were just 100 of them anyway) and the R14 was retired in 1983.
Also, according to him:
R15 was retired in 84.
R17 was retired in 1988.
R21/22 was retired in 87.
How did the TA retire cars in 1981 and '83 when the first R-62s didn't arrive until 1984? Was there a surplus of cars?
Good question. I think the R12 was retired without being replaced, since there weren't many left to begin with (only 100 were purchased).
I also think that the first R62's arrived in 84 and replaced the R14 & 15, but I'm not quite sure. Something had to replace all those cars.
I saw the first R62s on the 4 line in the summer of 1984. I think the R14s and 15s were gone after all of the Kawasaki cars came in.
Did any of the R17/R21/R22s get Redbird paint? I still see at least a couple of R21/R22s painted yellow that appear to be in work train service and operating under their own power.
A number of R17's were painted as "redbirds" and saw service on the Times Sq. Shuttle in their final years.
Remember, R-17 6677 and R-21 7075 were repainted forest green and
R-16 6452, now a school car, was painted fox red.
10/30/99
The R-17's were painted Fox Red first when they saw service on the #7 Flushing Line so the R-33 singles could be overhauled.
R-16 #6452,the school car must be the only R-16 to be painted Fox Red.
Bill Newkirk
10/30/99
R-17 #6677 and R-21 #7075 were painted GREEN to act as spares for the set of married pair "Graffitti Free" mainline cars (only one set) when a married pair was out for repairs.
Bill Newkirk
I can pinpoint when I first rode on an R62. It was November 1993 and Ed Koch was on board. I was in 3d term of grad school and boarded the train at 59th, riding down to 14th-Union Sq on the 4 line. A bit out of my way as I was heading up to the Upper West Side at the time.
I can pinpoint when I first rode on an R62. It was November 1983 (sorry, folks) and Ed Koch was on board ("How'm I doin?". I was in 3d term of grad school and boarded the train at 59th, riding down to 14th-Union Sq on the 4 line. A bit out of my way as I was heading up to the Upper West Side at the time.
Paul: Ridership dropped off so sharply during the late 70's to early
80's that about 300+ IRTcars were laid up out of service. Effectively the R-12,14 and 15's were simply removed from the property without any replacements. This is why the IRT is short of equiptment today.
There was a similar situation on the BMT-IND lines, I don't have the details in front of me but about 100 R-16's (6400's)dissappeared without any replacements.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I believe that some of the R10s disappeared during the early 1980s as well.
Were there any fan trips for the R-12/R-14 retirement or did they just disappear into the sunset?
To clear up a little misunderstanding about a previous post,I'll reprint my list from the Book of Last Runs:
R-12's sometime in September 1981
R-14's and 15's December 10,1984
R-17's February 29,1988
R-21's and 22's December 30,1987
R-16's ordered out of service June 26,1987
Hope this clears up any confusion.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The last IRT 25 cycle rotary converter is silent now forever. Rest in peace.
Rotary Converters are still in use on PATH. Their signal system uses these : 25 Hz, 60 Hz and 91-2/3 Hz.
SOURCE: PATH Supt. of Signals
Yes I agree that PATH uses 25, 60 and 91-2/3 Hz for track circuits. I don't believe that this power is generated from rotary converters. BTW, Pete Furkey is the Superintendent of Signals. Did you talk to him personnally?
Yes I did! He was at the last Patron Advisory Group meeting, and he specifically mentioned rotaries.
Also must mention that NYCT still uses 25 cycle for the White Plains Road line, Broadway BMT and Flushing lines for powering track circuits signal lighting circuits. This power comes from electronic frequency converters.
The Tristate Transportation Campaign in their MTR 242 issue of October 22, 1999 at http://www.tstc.org/bulletin/19991022/ reported that the Port Authority capital budget includes $1 Billion for a new Hudson River Tunnel. Considering the project complexity, is that really enough? If so why is the LIRR East Side Access project $2.3 Billion and it uses a tunnel that is already there.
Am I the only one to see what appears to be considerable disparity.
($1 billion to cross the Hudson vs. $2.3 billion to move the LIRR a few blocks). Perhaps the Port Authority doesn't plan on using NYC contractors and NY labor. Perhaps they won't have to do a NY EIS. Perhaps they plan on charging NYC for all the construction east of the Hudson's centerline.
[($1 billion to cross the Hudson vs. $2.3 billion to move the LIRR a few blocks). Perhaps the Port Authority doesn't plan on using NYC contractors and NY labor.]
Sounds like the Port Authority has enough sense not to deal with NYC criminals, er, construction unions.
It coulb be because it's actually less complex. A new Hudson tunnel won't really have to go under existing structures, where the only portion of the LIRR to GCT project that is in place is the river tunnel.
-Hank
From here on I am now going by the handle, SubDude. I thought it had more of a play-on-words thing there.....
Just make it R9 and you will be happy.
About underground storage areas, does anyone know:
1. The location of some
2. Their capacity and service to their cars.
In Philadelphia their is one on the underground terminals of PATCO and the BSS, and one at Broad + Erie, another at Broad + Olney (which is pointless, since Olney is right near Fern Rock, the subway's main aboveground yard).
I would imagine that such yards are probably used mostly as turnback loops that can only hold up to a few trains, that holds them between runs. I would imagine that they don't do much overnight storage.
I can think of a few off the top of my head.
174th St on the A line can hold 4 fill trains + a 4 car piece.
137th St on the 1/9 line - not sure of the capacity.
City Hall Lower Level on the N/R lines - again not sure of capacity.
The underground yard on the 1/9 line has 5 yard tracks 3 on one side of the main line and 2 on the other. If I remember correctly each track can hold 2 10 car trains. I know it can hold alot of trains, during the Lenox invert many #2 trains were stored there.
You are correct. Tracks A, B, & C are west of the 3 Mainline tracks and D & E are east.
City hall has 3 tracks and a total of 5 trains can be stored there.
Also, one I forgot is the 4 track yard south of Church Avenue on the F line.
Could the tracks under Pitkin Avenue east of Euclid on the A/C lines be considered a yard? Not to be confused with the actual outdoor Pitkin Yard.
Also what about the storage tracks under Hillside Avenue for the F line east of 179th St?
East of Euclid under Pitkin? I would consider those yard leads for
the Pitkin Yard.
According to the track maps, there are tracks that lead east of Euclid to what would have been part of the IND second system if it had been built. The Euclid Yard leads curve to the south just west of these tracks.
Note that this is similar to tracks at Church Avenue which were planned for the IND Second System South Brooklyn Fort Hamilton Parkway Extension that would have included the tunnel to Staten Island.
Once when I fell asleep in the early 1970's on the way home from high school, I ended up east of Euclid and woke up not on a curve but on a straightaway. When the train reversed to go back to Manhattan, it pulled right back straight into the station without a curve like that which would have occured with the yard lead.
At 137th St on the 1 line, I remember they use to turn the 137th local there and store others instead of deadheading all the way to 242nd St
City Hall lower level holds 6 600' trains - 3 on each of 2 tracks. The third track is non-electrified and can hold about 600' of work train.
All three tracks are electrified. They could put trains on that third track if they had too.
North of 179th Street on the F. There are 8 tracks according to the track maps on this site.
Also under the Queens Boulevard brack on the E, F, G, and R there are tracks from "71st Avenue, Forest Hills" to "Kew Gardens, Union Turnpike." From "71st Avenue, Forest Hills" to "75th Avenue" there are 2 storage tracks used for reversing G, and R trains.
Technically, although there are trains layed up there, it is considered part of the Jamaica yard lead and not a yard itself.
How about storage on mainline?
Don't they store R's on 4th Ave express tracks (except this weekend's G.O.).
Don't they store on the express tracks on Broadway??
Some R trains are stored on the Coney Island bound express track at night between 36th Street - and outside of 59th Street.
I forgot, trains are stored on the express tracks on Broadway from south of Canal Street to City Hall lower level.
a few year ago i thought they stored equipment on the express track of the jerome ave el around kingbrigde road.
I know that the MFSE has a storage track south of Spring Garden station, except I have not been there in a while. And I would not be surprised if it stores on mainline while not in use (who knows what happens then)
I have seen stored MFL cars on that track, while traveling on I-95 or the BFB, several times.
Do they still store trains on the Coney Island Express Track on the Brighton between Kings Hwy and Brighton Beach. I remember as a kid they used to, also between Brighton Beach and Ocean Pkwy
The last time I saw trains stored on the Brighton was about a year ago.There was a General Order in Stillwell yard causing lay-ups to be relocated.
Nope. The trains are ALL stored in either Stillwell Avenue Yard or Coney Island/Avenue Z Yard. They store trains on track 5 and 6 between Brighton Beach and Ocean Parkway during the middays and weeknights. On weekends there is no sign of Q trains on the Brighton Line.
I would assume this is to prevent vandalism. However, storing all the trains in CI causes a nasty bottleneck as all the Q trains need to traverse the Sea Beach or Brighton tracks on their way to Brighton Beach.
I thought someone said that the TA was to build a seperate track so tghe Q can bypass CI altogether????
3TM
116St. Transfer to the M116. Next stop 106. Transfer to the M106. Stand Clear.........
During the re-construction of the Stillwell Ave. terminal, part of the plans call for the narrowing of the existing platforms and relocation of the 2 inner plats. This will provide space for a 9th track that will allow 'Q' trains to bypass the station...
Or, just extend Q service to Coney Island. Too many times there is a D train at Brighton Beach and at the same time a Q pulls in... ON THE OTHER TRACK! I have to cross over and by the time I get down the stairs, walk across, and climb the stairs again the D is gone!
The Q did go to CI when operating as a Bway train. The D terminated at BB. Then in 94-95 during the Manny B construction, the Q was extended to CI on middays and weekends as the Brighton local........
3TM
67St, final tranasfer to the Q making express stops via 63St and Bway to Brighton Beach, Bklyn. Across the platform, the J and Z making express stops. On the street level, M66. Fulton St bound P making all local stops. The next stop will be 59St-Queensboro Bridge. Transfer to N,R,4,5,6 lines. The M31, M57, Q32, Q60, and Q101 up on the street level. Stand Clear of the closing doors.........
11/02/99
That's like riding the (Q) to Brighton Beach and wishing to ride to Coney island. The (Q) switches over to the opposite platform and you have to cross over to the Coney Island (D) side. I allways get off at Sheepshead Bay to avoid this. It's like a 50/50 gamble.
Bill Newkirk
It's also faster to do that because many times the Q has to wait for another Q at Brighton Beach to leave the station.
--Mark
I always remembered that At Sheapshead Bay, the operator or conductor announced to change to Coney Island at Sheapshead Bay Station
Still that way today!
I have taken the Q train to Brighton Beach many times and I have never had to cross the platform to get to the D train.
I always seem to be on the same side to get the D train to Coney Island.
I usually come in around 8PM. Does the Q train cross over at different times or does it run local at that hour?
I do wish that they would run the Q to Coney Island.
I'm the opposite. Usually, if I take a Q, it switches before entering Brighton Beach. It all depends on which track is occupied, or if both tracks are occupied, the incoming train will be routed to whichever track is vacated first.
And, no, the Q normally runs express whenever it is operating, G. O. notwithstanding. Two weeks ago, our Brighton Beach-bound Q made all local stops after 6:00 PM, but it was due to delays on the D.
It was 25 years ago when the NYCTA used to store EE trains on the
express tracks of the Broadway line from 34th Street to Canal
Street during the winter months. As a result, R1/9's, as well as
R-16's, R-38's, and R-40M's, operated on the GG line during off-
hours at this period when 8-car trains were used.
Before the center tracks at 2 Av were sealed off, I remember that sometimes trains were stored there, was this used as a yard at some time?
I could remember that if a train was partly in that about half of it would be sticking out into the station.
That station was the terminal for the F train before 1967.
Before 1954 The D and E Terminated there, but at different times
I believe the D ran to Church Ave since the first day of service on the 6th Ave. line. IIRC, the line along Houston St. from W4th to Church Ave. was opened before the Sixth Ave. trunk.
Before the connection between Church Ave and Ditmas on the Culver Line, It was the F than ran to Church Ave, after the connection there were changes the D ran to Coney Island and the F ran to 2nd Ave. Sometimes the D changed Southern Terminals with the E at that time.
This is news to me. I was under the impression that the train that served Church Ave. from 1940-1967 was the D and only the D.
Prior to the Culver recapture, F trains ran from 179th Street to Church Avenue, D trains ran from 205 Street to Hudson Terminal, and E trains ran to Houston (either Broadway/Lafayette or Second Avenue, usually Broadway-Lafayette, if I recall). E trains were rerouted when the Fulton Express service was opened--I don't remember the date of that, though.
After the Culver connection, the TA began its 'regularizing' of service so all 8th Avenue service ran south from West Fourth and all 6th Avenue turned east onto Houston (the JFK express was a later exception). It's somewhat like what was done in recent years with the north end of the Central Park West route--all 8th Avenue to Washington Heights and all 6th Avenue to The Bronx.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
This "regularizing" of 6th and 8th Avenue even took place after
Chrystie Street opened, connecting the IND with the BMT.
As I recall, immediately before the "recapture" of the Culver line in Oct., 1954, the F train ran to Church Ave. and the D train terminated at Hudson Terminal. However, between the opening of the Sixth Ave. line in 1940 and 1954, the south terminals of the D and F flip-flopped a couple of times. I've seen a 1950 map whose service guide has the D running to Church Ave. and the F to Hudson Terminal.
Second Ave. was used as the south terminal of the E (non-rush) and CC (rush hours) in the early 50s. After Oct, 1954, it was used for the F. In the late 50s, when construction started on the Chrystie St. connector, this was cut back to Broadway-Lafayette, and on nights and weekends, the Fs were terminated at 34th St.
-- Ed Sachs
Before the 6th Avenue Express connection was made, between 34th & W4, what did the expresses do? Did everything funnel into one downtown track? Send everything down the H&M tracks to 9th and then flip back to the IND tube? (yuk-yuk) Also, at the extreme south end of the S/B express plat at 34-6, there is a wide metal door, almost looking like a shaftway access. Any thoughts?
Prior to Chrystie St., D and F trains shared the local tracks south of 34th St. If you've ever looked through the railfan window between 34th and 42nd Sts., you've probably seen the numerous scissor switches, including TWO sets between the express tracks!
also on weekends and nights the F terminated at 34th St
It did after October of 1954, anyway. Which leads me to a Houston St. question: back in those days, did southbound F trains switch back to the "express" track just before W. 4th St?
Steve B-8AVEXP asks about pre-Octoer 1954 6th Avenue service, 'Back in those days, did southbound F trains switch back to the "express" track just before W. 4th St?'
I may be wrong, but I don't think those express tracks in West Fourth Street station were used for any regular service before the express tracks north of there were built. I vaguely remember being on them, but not on a regular train that I can recall.
This is one of those examples of something for which there seems to be absolutely no formal record anywhere. At least the future will have places like SubTalk to look through.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I figured they would have switched over at some point, since the outer Houston St. tracks lead to the Rutgers tunnel, as well as the KK connection, while the inner tracks ended just beyond 2nd Ave. This was before the Chrystie St. connector was built, mind you.
There must have been a connection between the inner and outer tracks somewhere south of the W 4th junction and north of 2nd Ave., because in the early 1950s, CC and E trains terminated at 2nd Ave., and the W. 4th junction only connects the outer (local) tracks of the 6th and 8th Ave. lines. Possibly there were crossover just north (west) of 2nd Ave station.
I believe that in the 60s, before Chrystie St. opened, the F trains terminating at Broadway-Lafayette crossed over to the center tracks just north of W. 4th.
-- Ed Sachs
There are scissor switches between each local and express track just to the north of W. 4th St. on the 6th Ave. line. There must be additional switches before Broadway-Lafayette.
One of these days, I'm going to have to take a C or (gulp!) E south of W. 4th St. and try to get a good look at the interconnecting switch layout between the 6th and 8th Ave. local tracks. When I took the JFK Express 15 years ago, I didn't notice anything unusual when we switched over; the train seemed to be going in a straight line.
The uptown local track coming from Spring St. seems to go straight down into the Sixth Ave. line a W4 St. The C and E have to switch to the left to proceed northbound, where that tracks merges from a similar track switching off the incoming F track from Bway Lafayette.
South of Houston The 8th Ave Lines run on 6th Ave(or Ave of the Americas) When the JFK Train, it ran on the A Train South Of W 4th St Station, then went down to the 6th Ave (B-D-F) lines at W 4th) so it was a straight run. The 8th Ave turns off 6th on Greenwich NW to 8th, where it turns on 8th just below 14th St.
IIRC, the local tracks of both lines are at the same grade at the point where the interconnecting switches are. Since I almost always take an express train through that area, I've never had a chance to get a good look at the setup except for the upgrade of the 8th Ave. local tracks. I rode on a southbound F train through there in 1996, but didn't see much because of the limited visibility on the R-46s.
BTW, according to the track map, there are no switches at all between the southbound 6th Ave. local and express tracks between W. 4th St. and Broadway-Lafayette.
Regarding West 4 Street in the pre-Chrystie Street days the two express tracks began just north of West 4 Street and ran straight through to a little east of 2 Avenue Station. Since the connections between the 8 Avenue and 6 Avenue Lines south of West 4 Street are between the local tracks only there would have been no problem running D's to Bway-Lafayette and E to 2 Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I also remember at one time back in the early 50s that the D ran to Hudson Term(WTC) and the E to either 2nd Ave or Bdwy Laffayette.
Well, regularization certainly applies at W. 4th St., as the present arrangement eliminates the need for switching tracks and resultant delays. The same holds true on the West Side IRT north of 96th St - during normal hours, anyway.
At the northern end of CPW, there is some switching involved, no matter how you slice it. Part of the reason the B and C switched terminals was to standardize equipment in the yards. It also disrupted the original IND letter code.
First of all how many cars can be stored at the following "Underground Yard" locations?:
Lower Level of Queens Blvd. line between Jamacia Yard swicthes and the bump blocks beneath the 75th Avenue Station.
Upper and lower level of Hillside Avenue line beyond 179th Street Station. Also how much of this area is used for turnarounds versus layups?
Lower level beyond Church Street on the IND South Brooklyn/Culver Line.
Upper and lower levels of Archer Avenue IND and BMT beyond Parsons, I understand it is about 60 car lengths per track on the IND level.
Lower level of 168th Street on the Washington Heights IND line.
Beyond 21st Street Queensbridge on the 63rd Street line.
Also are the tracks connecting the Willie B with the 6th Avenue line ever used as layups ? (Very expensive layups albiet.)
Thanks--George Devine
San Francisco, CA
That's Church Avenue, not Church Street............
3TM
Doesn t the middle(local) tracks on the Wash Hts lines, go directly to the 207th St Yards. I know Dyckman St has 4 tracks, when the route hits Bdwy
The express tracks at 168 descend to the underground 174 Street Yard. The middle tracks at Dyckman go to 207 Street Yard to the north, and merge back into the regular tracks to the south.
I don t recall the switches south of Dyckman St, I will look later at the track maps
It's been years since I last rode the A train home (I'm in the military) AFAIK, there's a crossover for the center tracks right outside of the station on both ends and immediately south of the crossover, there are switches from the center tracks to the outer tracks respectfully. I rode many A trains that had to skip Dyckman St for every reason possible.
Beyond the wall, there is room for about 9 cars. I know this because at one time my 8 car PM "B" put-in was located there. It was probably sealed off due to homeless people sleeping there on those cold winter nites.
Actually, EE trains were stored on the Broadway express tracks as far back as their first winter of operation, 1967-68. I found this out the hard way on a Saturday afternoon. We transferred at Union Square from the Canarsie line and its unmarked BMT standards for what I had hoped would be a nice express dash to Times Square on an N train. Instead, there were R-1/9s parked on the express tracks, and all trains were running local. I was fit to be tied. What's the big idea? On other occasions, only the northbound express track was used for storage, and Coney Island-bound N trains were running express. Go figure.
The Concourse express track has been used to store CC trains in the past, and the Brooklyn-bound track on the Canarsie line was utilized in this manner on winter weekends in the late 60s. All trains ran in an absolute block on the 8th Ave.-bound track between 8th Ave. and 3rd Ave., wrong-railing when headed to Brooklyn. When the R-42s arrived, the conductor would announce, "Brooklyn train, Brooklun train. This is an LL train to Brooklyn."
I've looked at the pictures on the site 1 million times but I still can't crack it. Is there an easier way to do this other than the unit numbers?
I don't think so.
Aside from some cosmetic differences on the inside especially after
the various rebuilding/refurbishing projects, the outsides basically look the same.
One noteable exception: The R-33 & R-36 Flushing cars have different passenger windows than the "main line" Redbirds.
how it different inside?
The older R26/28/29 cars have tan ceilings and PA speakers mounted in the center of their A/C vents. The newer R33/36 cars have white ceilings, some with incandescent light fixtures in their A/C vents.
The best way to tell the difference is checking the car# Anything beginning with a 7 is an R26 or 28.
10/30/99
One minor way of telling is those floor to ceiling poles down the center of the car. Not so much the poles,but the escusheon on the top of the pole that meets the ceiling. The R-26 and 28's are like the R-27's. They are flaired. The R-29 thru 36's like the R-30 and 30A's are straight.
Bill Newkirk
After the Redbirds what cars are next for the breakers yard ?
I've started a rumor that the plans now for the new car deliveries for the IRT and BMT-IND is to have the cars delivered directly to the scrappers.
Are subway cars like toasters ? They are never as good as your last one.
1. For the IRT, the next fleet to go out after the Redbirds will be more Redbirds! The current order (1,080 cars under contracts R-142 and R-142A) will not be enough to replace all of the Redbirds. Allowing for some fleet expansion, about 500 Redbirds will be left after these cars are delivered. The next IRT order (in 2000) will replace these cars.
2. For the BMT-IND, the 212-car R-143 order is intended entirely for fleet expansion, and will be equipped to work with the CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control) system to be installed on the Canarsie (L) Line by 2003. After that, NYCT wants to order 660 BMT-IND cars, of which about 53 will be for fleet expansion. The consensus among SubTalkers, at least, is that the R-38 and R-40 fleets will be among the first to be replaced.
David
What is wrong with the R-38s? Is there age starting to show? I remember when they first went into service that they really could take-off.
THey were far more reliable then the R-44s.
The R-38 has problems with its roof being leaky. They are scheduled to be the first cars to be scrapped when sufficent numbers of new cars have been bought. The R143 will not replace any subway car. The next order will. So expect to see everything on the road you see now for at least the next 5-7 years.
Well, I guess I have time to catch at least one more ride on my second favorite cars (behind the R-10) before they go to the Great Beyond!
10/30/99
David,
Okay,now I have the $1.35 question. It sounds like some Redbirds will be retained. If this is true which fleet of Redbirds are in the best shape? The R-26's-28's-29's-33's or 36's.
Larry Redbird,I await your reply too.
Bill Newkirk
I like the R-36 best, although their lights need to be replaced. Any car but the R-33 single (unless their married, or converted to trailers) is good for salvation.
RUE4death
The R26 and R28 are the oldest and probably will be the first to go.
The R29 are actually in the worst shape and have the most rust, so they will probably go too.
R33 will likely be handled on a case-by-case basis, with the least rusted ones staying. The R36 and R36ML are in the best shape, and will probably be around a while.
Wayne
Bill: I'm inclined to agree with Wayne's assessment although I did see the Redbird Patriarch R-26 7750 last Tuesday and he was in great shape. I daresay that some of the R-29's may go to that Coney Island Yard up there in the sky before all the R26's or 28's.
The R-33's and their near cousins the R-36s' were built like Battleships and took the worse the vandals and the TA(from lack of maintenance) could throw at them and keep on running. During the dark days of the 70's when the system virtually collapsed it was the R-33's which kept moving.
Forgive if I digress from your question but the Redbirds are very comfortable cars to ride in. THey are open and airy with a nice big window at each end,whereas the R-62's and 62A's are more boxy giving a very clautropobic appearance.
The Redbirds are also the last cars to retain the distintive end route bonnet with marker lights, route sign and destination sign.
Hopefully they'll be with us for a while longer.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I would assume since all the Redbirds are compatible with one another, the ones with the best maintenance records and least amount of rust will be retained, reguardless of what car class they are. I would also bet that almost all the R3336 WF cars will be retained, even if the R62 replaces them on the Flushing line.
I doubt that the R-33 WF cars will be used for passenger service once there are enough R-142s. They might last through the winter. Or might be stored and used for another winter in case there is a problem with the R-142 (and there WILL BE).
Aren't the WF R33/36 cars the most reliable redbirds in the system?
The R-33 singles don't have air conditioning.
10/31/99
Don't forget the R-33/36's (Flushing fleet) had their general overhaul about 1983. The TA judges replacement of an old fleet with a new one based on the overhaul date. Now you can see air conditioned or not the Flushing fleet's time is almost due. Unless the TA breaks with tradition and does a 180.
Bill Newkirk
The R-36 are my favorite Redbirds. I hope they're overhauled again if necessary. I wish they had done an R-32 or 38 (or 40 or 42) job on the interior (or basically just the ceiling).
Sorry, I forgot. Are the R33S's the only R33 cars on the Flushing line, with all the others designated as R36?
Yes, all the double sets (which are air conditioned) on the Flushing are the R-36. The singles are R-33.
The MTA seems to want to do another overhaul on some of the R-32s, R-40m's, and R-42s (about 650 cars or so). They feel that is more cost effective than trying to replace every car that will go over the 35-year mark in the next decade.
Apparently there is some confusion and desire for order about the names we use. I was thinking of compiling a list of the handles used here, perhaps with date of inception, number of messages posted, date of institutionalization and/or discontinuance,
general type of obsession talked about i.e. R1/9's, Redbirds, Yankees, stairway handrails, strange sounds heard from flourescent lighting fixtures, largest rats seen on roadbed listed by Division, filthiest tower, funny things that happened when
the brakes went into emergency, or how personal hygiene was handled when customers were stuck in a train for several hours.
Perhaps we should all use our real names.
I agree with that, too!
You misspelled your own name -- It's Bly, not Bligh
Arrrr... Stow it, Matey!
Or I'll misspell yer name, too!
I agree. If one has nothing to hide, using one's REAL name wouldn't be a problem.
I noticed over the years that the more people use made-up screen names, the more problems arise. Years ago when I first used Compuserve, everyone used their real name (plus their C-serve number) and there didn't seem to be the problems that crop up nowadays with allthe made-up screen names. People hide being those names and do all sorts of b.s. posting, personal attacks, etc.
Sure, if one has the time, one could look at the "routing" in the headers to see where it is coming from, but why should we have to do that?
Agreed, although many who use handles are MTA employees. Speaking your mind occasionally means jeopadizing your job.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I agree, although I like using a handle. Sometimes they can be funny puns, like mine or Anon e. mouse.
Later, SubDude
Steve. Some of us on SubTalk have taken
controversial positions and put ourselves at risk.
When I did my expose on the 2nd Ave Subway and
proved with geometric logic that it has been running for at least 10 years to serve the rich-- I left myself open for retribution from the all the crackpots out there. Don't get me wrong people, I'm not talking about the people who post here. It is a well known fact from talk radio, that for every person who calls, there are at least 100 who have never called a radio station. It's these people I'm worried about, they don't have the tolerance and understanding that us Bus and SubTalkers have. Again fellow posters, I just want to reassure you that I believe everyone of you out there is as sane as I am. (( That should be as reassuring as when Norton tells Ralph that as long as Ed is an executive with the bus company Ralph can rest assured of being a bus driver for the rest of his life. ))
There is another issue of privacy. I am trying to
protect my family from the public ridicule that
would come if it was known who I really am.
Who are you really?
Who is anyone, really?
Geometric logic???
Thank you Captain Queeg (you forgot your ball bearings).
When did Nortomn work for the bus company, I thought he worked in the sewers.
I have nothing to hide so I use my real name. I just love rapid transit, the look, the sounds, and the fact they haul loads of people.
My biggest thrill was driving a SEPTA LRV on open house day. I thought
I died and went to heaven that day. I hope they do it again so I run that LRV one more time. Kept posting all you sub-guys & gals. I love this website. Thanks again to Dave Pirmann for running this website!
Chuck Greene (my real name)
Some people just choose to use an alias. People today are getting more and more private and the less known about themselves in the public, the better.
I am Stephen A. Ives but prefer to call myself Subway Steve on the web or Mr. T by my friends(long story). I don't feel pressured to use a handle, I choose to use one just as some of you choose to use your real names, which is your right.
To each his own.
Agreed. I initially used a handle because I was posting from work and wasn't sure how upper management would view it, even though it was done at lunchtime and after hours. Once I got a cable modem (and the decent response time that goes with it) at home I added my email address, but by that time the handle just kind of stuck. As those of you who have read some of my longer posts know, I talk about myself and my family frequently in this forum (hey, I'm proud of 'em all, what can I say) and I've gotten to know quite a few more of you via email and in person over the past year or two. I have little tolerance for those who use the cloak of anonymity to slander or deceive, but I have full respect for those who use it to protect their privacy and, in some cases, their jobs. There are some anonymous posters here whose real identity I know, but I will never reveal it without their permission, and there are others whose posts I have enjoyed (and wouldn't want to miss) about whose real identity I haven't a clue.
As I've said before, to each his or her own!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
AMEN mouse! I use a 'handle' just remind to everyone thats reading that I AM from out of town, I dont get in town that often, so if I do screw up on facts or whatever, they can view it from that perspective. Besides, I LOVE it that some people like certain lines or equipment so much, and wear their hearts on their shoulders, so to speak....
my handle is left over from my days on the road as fax tech. the cb was put of the road equipment i carried in the car to stay out of trouble.. alan
I use my handle of "Paul Matus" because I hope it will gain more attention than my real name, Albert Gore, Jr.
At least its more exciting!
Drat, my secret is out, too!!
--Dan
Say, Dan, is it true you dropped out of the race for President of the United States because you spelled President, P-R-E-Z-I-D-E-N-T?
Come on, you can tell me the truth.
(Seriously, if you tell me I swear I won't tell another soul! Your secret is safe with me).
Doug aka BMTman
I'll bet Dan knows the president of Chechnyia! (I probably spelled that wrong.)
I'll bet Dan knows the president of Chechnyia! (I probably spelled that wrong.)
You did spell Chechnya wrong. Now you can't be President!
Next!
(Actually, for all I know, Chechnya is spelled with Cyrillic charcters and we'd all get it wrong.)
No, it's because he insisted on spelling potato p-o-t-a-t-o-e.
Rim shot!
Here, here. I use my last initial, and added my license plate designation this past July. I have nothing to hide, but still prefer to maintain some sense of privacy.
10/30/99
Actor Tony Randall's real name is Leonard Silverman,Tony Curtis's is Bernie Schwartz (from da Bronx),Englebert Humperdinck's is Arnold Dorsey (yuck!),so Bill Newkirk's real name is Bill Mangahas. It's one of those names that's the only one in the whole United States of America.
I have nothing to hide. I am not wanted for tax fraud,fare evasion,car theft or high skullduggery! I just use BILL NEWKIRK as a "handle" to reflect my New York City subway calendar and the station I identified with in the childhood years. That's Newkirk Avenue on the Brighton line,not the Nostrand Avenue line.
Bill What's his name?
Yes, but the lovely sea-green tiles with the mixed blue/green border deserves at least an honorable mention.
Wayne
Well it seems that maybe you should leave it alone ?
You've heard from a few that use handles for various reasons. For me, as an employee of the system, you never know who is reading and how they might misunderstand something said because it is taken out of context. It's not hard for someone to find out who I am or who I work for but I prefer not to wave it around on every post.
One of the greatest pleasures for me is to meet a Subtalker or chat with them off-line. I've made some dear friends in the past couple of years. Some are other employees in the system who have reached out to me with a problem/question or vice versa. I just don't see the value in being more public about who we are.
Mr t__:^)
The current thread on the Manhattan Beach Line reminded me of another aspect of the RPA plan that has not been given much discussion in this forum.
It is a line that may not be needed but it would potentially be neat.
The RPA Rx Plan proposed a line along the former LIRR branch that begins (or ends if you prefer) near the 65th Sea Beach Tracks follows the line across to near Avenue H, then turns north by the Linden Yard to parallel the L (Canarsie) Line. Ir splits from the Canarsie Line and heads northeast to the Hell Gate Bridge. finally, the RX route goes up the West Side toward YANKEE Stadium (Current Home of you know who)
Since this routing intersects many lines heading to Manhattan, the RPA suggested that this line would be a valuable addition to NY transportation in the Future. What is the take of you SubTalkers on this plan.
I know it is probably fantasy, but if connections to existing subway lines and to the Fantasy Staten Island Tunnel were made. Wow. Imagine a fast trip from Staten Island to Yankee Stadium.
Go for it!
Nice idea. Chance of being built: 0%
Ridership on this line would be far too low to justify a subway. It would be the equilvalent of a bus route.
As such, on the other hand, it is intriguing, for the very reasons the RPA states. With a bus-equivalent light rail line, fare control could be on board, but you might need elevators to comply with the handicapped access law. The rest of the bus routes could be redirected based on the presence of the line. It could be used to get to Brooklyn College with one change of train from just about anywhere, for example,
But is there enough room for two light rail tracks and one or two freight tracks, which most people seem to want? I'm not sure about Brooklyn and Queens. Forget the Hell Gate Bridge if you want Amtrak, MetroNorth AND freight.
This line has been the subject of citizen originated plans(apparently ignored by the solons--NIH you know). The hardcopy plan booklet suggested LRV service with connections to each subway line--as noted above nearly every branch of each division. The access to Brooklyn College should generate ridership plus if the money were spent to make a decent transfer station convenience for IRT patrons there. As to the ATK/freight/FRA conundrum, the logical steps are 1. rehang catenary--it was there in the 60's-- for lrv's with freight consigned to overnight. (This is already allowed by FRA in other locales) 2. The equipment should be identical to the NJT Hudson Bergen cars now in delivery--why because if they are any good then there will be no value in reinventing the wheel. The stations should be un personned without fare cxontrol but with surveillance cameras and proof of payment randomly enforced on board. If as I would suspect the service exceeds pessimistic estimates, then the equipment could be replaced with FRA certified cars , and extension through to the Bronx could happen. The then surplus LRV's could be sold to NJT as they wpould be compatible. Even though operated in a differnt fare collection scheme the service should be considered part of NYCT for fare purposes
I always thoguht there should be a connection to Queens via the Bronx. Was there ever a proposal about that?
Looks like I might be the best canidate since I'm only 3 miles from the Bronx. Although, everyone seems to be favoring a LaGuardia terminal for me instead.
N Broadway Line
I assume there is a GO this weekend, got the B at 59th St. 4th Ave on the express track. Went to Coney Island on what used to be the Manhattan bound express track. The CI express all the signals are pulled and the track is oxidized(?) (rusted no silver shine) over the rail heads.
This was no EXPRESS trip, we barely got going fast when the trian brake came on. Came to a complete stop right before the Kings Hwy interlocking and waited. Finaly moved through the interlocking to the CI bound express track, note here in the station there is a break in track in the CI bound express track.
Slow move through the CI yeard caught a short sight of some #7 redbirds I think. Slow cross over to the B platform and arrival at CI.
This in no way was any NX run but at least I got the experience.
BTW, the frieght tracks next to the ROW, they have a nice shine on them. Aren't we going walking there soon??
The train has to punch a line-up at Kings Highway. If it was automatically set the trains would take the switch too fast and go boom.
I don't see that happening with those R-68s. They...have a....hard...time....just....getting....up..to...30 mph...(gasp!)
Everybody out and push!
If all goes as I plan, I'll be in town next weekend(I think I've convinced my mother the mosquito threat isn't seeing as it's moved into PA now).
This go round I plan to take PATH into the city instead of the NJ Transit train all the way into Penn Basement. What are their fares? Will I be able to get a FunPass downtown (WTC area) or will I have to take a 33rd Street train into midtown and get one at Penn?
No time or $$$ for Newark, though I'd like to do it.
And has anyone noticed NJT's new colorized schedules?
This is the Roosevelt Blvd. Red Line. Next stop-Adams Avenue(had to hop on the bandwagon).
The PATH fare is $1.00 in coins or dollar bill.
You might - and I stress might - be able to get the Fun Pass at the Hudson News stand at WTC. I can check on it next week (I work near the WTC). The same goes for the Hudson News stand at 33rd St (I don't work near there).
However!!! At the WTC station of the E train they have MetroCard machines. You can buy the FunPass from the machine and come tho think of it at the 34th St station of the B,D,F & Q lines they have the machines as well.
One note: Make sure you have $4 in one dollar bills or in coins unless you want to get change from a $5 bill or $10 bill in Susan B. Anthonys. The maximum amount of change the machines will return is $6.
Or, you can charge the $4 FunPass to your affinity credit card. What better way to get frequent flyer miles than by riding the NYC subway!
There should be a Subway Credit Card. Get free subway rides and souvenirs just by using the card.
You should be able to use your Check Card Visa at the turnstiles.
Subway Steve.... you can get a FunPass at the newspaper stand in the center of the concourse just after you leave PATH control at WTC. There are also MetroCard Vending Machines at the entrance to the E train terminal at WTC.
It's going to be a busy weekend in NYC -- it's the NYC Marathon. So be sure you have a place to stay!
I'll be in NYC too, it's my Transit and Weather Together weekend for November :-)
I'm coming from Philly so I'll only be there for the day.
I'll only be bringing one roll of film. It's my second NYC Railfan trip, in which I hope to finish all Manhattan subways(just the upper 8th and 7th Avenue lines) and the Southern BMT.
Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of this book. I've heard about it quite a few times in postings about the LIRR. I've tried several online bookstores (e.g.- Barnes & Nobles, Books.com, Border.com)?
Are there any other books that anyone here on Subtalk would recommend on info about the abandoned LIRR lines and stations in Queens?
I was just looking through a picture book of Long Island Railroad operations in the old days in Barnes and Noble in the city. I've seen the book in 2 different B&N's. It's usually mixed in with books on Brooklyn and the 5 boroughs. It's a large book, maybe about $17, I don't remember the title. I don't know if you want to go way back in time.
[Does anyone know where I can obtain a copy of this book. I've heard about it quite a few times in postings about the LIRR. I've tried several online bookstores (e.g.- Barnes & Nobles, Books.com, Border.com)]
It seems to be out of print. Probably the most likely place to have a copy would be the Strand used bookstore on Broadway and 12th Street. Their railroad and transit selection is pretty decent, although it changes a lot.
I just picked it up recently at the GCT Shop.
-Hank
Neither ABE nor Bibliofind have a copy in their listings at the present time. Kevin T. Farrell (http://www.trainbooks.com) is an excellent source for out-of-print RR books but he doesn't list one at the moment either. I've seen the book at shows (and have a copy myself) so it shouldn't be too hard to find.
There are a couple of other LIRR books out there too; besides Ron Ziel's Pennsy Era on Long Island there is one entitled Long Island Rail Road Memories that I've seen (but don't have), and there's another one titled simply LIRR that I saw a couple of years ago. Don't know much about those last two books, however.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Call Arnold Joseph at (212) 532-0019. He is a dealer in all kinds of
Railroadiana. he has good prices. Brian
I bought it at the transit museum in Bklyn (Court Street) not too long ago.
Try the Red Caboose.
10/30/99
Bought the new Conseco Metrocard at the Brooklyn Bridge station (4-5-6). Here is the caption:
"If this card has a bigger balance than your retirement fund,call 1-877-Conseco."
HERE WE GO AGAIN !!
Bill Newkirk
10/30/00
I rode the Franklin Avenue Shuttle today. The cars are still clean and windows (this train) are scratch free but smudged. The lay up of a 2-car set south of Prospect Park had scratched windows galore. I don't have the car numbers at this time , I am guessing that this set runs between Midnight and 5AM when the vandals are out. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The elevator on the Manhattan bound side is out of service! And that's another thing. On the panel inside the Queens bound side elevator next to the buttons are N/B and S/B. Shouldn't N/B read "To Manhattan" and S/B read "To Queens"? Excuse me,that would make sense!
Bill Newkirk
The 2918 set was laid up south of Prospect Park on Wednesday.
I thought the entire renovation was very nicely done. My only quibble is that they used the same color scheme for all the stations: Dark green with raspberry red trim, and light green/cream diamonds. The very least they could have done was to use a different color for each station. Otherwise, it was very faithful to the original BMT Vickers designs found in the Brighton and Sea Beach line station houses. The station house at Park Place is impressive; again I find some fault with some of the detailing - the overly-wide dark green tile band looks out of place.
Wayne
Wayne: I would agree that the TA did a very nice job on the Franklin.
My favorite part is the view of the brick tunnel from Botanical Gardens Station. I'm sure a picture of this will turn up in a calender before too long. Franklin Avenue Station is particularly nice. They managed to make it open and airy and yet keep some of the flavor an ambience of an old time el station. Much better than those glass and concrete boxes that they have on the Rockaway Line.
The only drawback I would say is not extending the second track through Park Place. If that had been done the northbound could conduct his station work while waiting for the southbound to clear.
I rode both trains when I was there and found that you could clearly see out the front of the train as the windows to the motormens cabs where not obstructed.
I also got there by using the IRT which was most convienent. They finally openned the transfer point 80 years after it was built. Never say never.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I took two pictures of the brick tunnel. The one from the northbound track came out better than the southbound one (slight glare). In fact, I took what I thought was a routine cross-track shot at Botanic Garden and the place was so well lit and the tile so shiny that it glared out! (fortunately, the other pictures came out OK).
#2923 had a slight iridescence to the front window glass. #2917 was clear. We watched intently from this car while traveling the route of the doomed Gate Cars of 1918 and the ill-fated R32 of 1974. It looks like the portal has been modified slightly - is that a anti-crash barrier sticking out just past where the southbound track switches? That would prevent side contact with the curtain wall in the event a train should split the switch.
Looking up the unused track from the southbound Prospect Park platform, I got goose bumps and that eerie, haunted feeling.
Wayne
What exactly happened in 1974???
3TM
86St. Transfer to the M86 on the street level. The next station will be 79St. Transfer to the M79 up on the street level. Stand Clear.....
What happened in 1974 was a mild recurrance of the 1918 Malbone St. wreck. Due to trackwork on the Franklin shuttle, shuttle trains were using the SB shuttle track in and out of Prospect Park. A train of R-32's derailed in the exact same spot as the BU's did in 1918. If my memory serves me correctly, there were only minor injuries. As to whether or not the damaged cars were repaired and returned to service, I don't remember.
I believe the front set of R-32s was permanently knocked out of service. At least this particular train was creeping along, and there were no fatalities.
Since I am not in NY, I do have a question regarding the Franklin Shuttle, On which track does the train enter Prospect Park,?does it switch over from the SB to the Northbound before it enters the station, or does it enter on the Southbound track, then crosses over after the station and reverse back. I know years ago it did both in order to give cross platform connections with the CI Bound Brighton Lines
They use the Northbound track in Prospect Park, switching over just north of Empire Blvd.
Now that the double track is just in Botanic Gardens station, it's almost like a single track line with a l-o-n-g passing siding.
I guess I should keep my mouth shut--they might've made it single track the whole way.
What do you mean? Did they take out the physical connection with the S/B local track at Prospect Park, or is it still there, just unused?
subfan
Paul, the South bound (Malbone Street Wreck track) is still there. It is just unused -- or barely used -- as it has been for years. BTW, it too received new running and third rail treatment.
SubDude
Doug: Please don't take offense but its very hard to get used to calling you Subdude, after meeting you at Branford and hearing your regular updates on the Franklin I can't help thinking of you as
Mr B M T.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Well, he could be referred to as the railfan formally known as Doug, aka BMT Man.
Works for Prince.
And it also works for the "Transportation Professional formerly known as ....", yada, yada yada....;-)
SudDude
Bill, I bet you didn't get a glimpse of an ancient Shuttle relic that I saw while riding the Franklin Shuttle earlier today? It is something that would interest a great many SubTalkers here.
What I saw was one of the original Franklin Shuttle station canopies (probably from Dean Street or more likely Park Place) awaiting the welders torch. I just happenned to glance out the window of the hippo as we passed over Atlantic Ave. I casually looked down (facing east) into some auto/scrap yard and caught sight of this oddity. It is laying upside down, but is intact (it is only a 10-15 foot section). If I get the chance I might wander over there and take a picture or two.
Certainly it could be something that could be saved and acquired by one of the trolley/rapid transit museums.
SubDude
Some of the trolley poles that supplied power to the line way back when are still there...
www.forgotten-ny.com
We saw some trolley poles as well in Canarsie - one on Glenwood Road between Rockaway Pkwy and E.96th, it is right in front of a furniture store and is set at an angle, and another round the corner on E.96th, just south of Glenwood Road. There was a wooden pole as well which had an arm halfway up for the trolley wire. The former site of Flatlands Avenue station is now used as an outdoor warehouse for dog houses.
Wayne
Yeah, Wayne, it's kind of neat how the first two blocks of the Canarsie Railroad's former ROW are still intact! From near the corner of Glenwood and E.96th down past Conklin Ave. to Flatlands, the route of the steamline (and later trolley line) is quite obvious. The first block's ROW has been leased (sold?) to the local Knights of Columbus lodge and is used as a driveway/parking lot for their members' cars.
You can tell that furniture store is a newer building than most in the area and that it is configured oddly on the former ROW (like a wedge from a slice of pizza).
SubDude
How can you see the ROW?
3TM
106St. Transfer to the M106. The next staion will be 96St. Transfer to the M96. Stand Clear.
Believe it or not, there are signs which suggest the ROW is still NYCTA property. Specifically, the signs say "No dumping" or something to that effect, with NYCTA on the botom of the sign. Past Rockaway Parkway, the ROW curves to the left about 45 degrees, then continues in a straight line to Canarsie between 95th and 96th Sts.
Take the L to the last stop (Rockaway Parkway). Walk about 1/4 of a block south and you will be at Glenwood road. Cross to the southside of the street and walk one block west to E.96th Street. Cross to the westside of E.96th and walk about 100 feet down the block. You should see a fence (different from the one nearest to the corner) that will have a white sign w/black lettering exclaiming: 'NO DUMPING by order of N.Y.C.T.A.'. You have come to the fenced in former ROW of the old Brooklyn, Rockaway Beach & Canarsie RR.
Now, if you want to see the ROW as it crosses two separate pieces of property walk down to the next corner -- Conklin Ave. -- and make a right. You will see that the ROW runs adjacent to a Knights of Columbus (of St. Pius X) on the north side of the street. On the southside of Conklin the route continues alongside some attached private houses. This ROW continues down to the next street which is Flatlands Ave.
South of Flatlands the visible markings of the ROW are all gone (save for an occasional backyard fence made from the old trolley lines' ROW fencing). Canarsie High School at Ave. J and housing built on the ROW south to Skidmore Ave. has all erased evidence of this once thriving "small town" railroad.
10/31/99
SubDude,
I don't think those staircases are awaiting the scrappers torch. I heard they are landmarks and were saved for that purpose. I don't know who did or what they plan to do what them but if they were to be scrapped,they would have been cut up on sight when the structure was being demolished. I believe it was from Fulton and Franklin.
Bill Newkirk
If that scrap yard is on the southeast corner of the shuttle and Atlantic Avenue that has a sort of ashes-to-ashes aspect to it: that was the site of Bedford Station/Terminal.
Hey, Paul (Oops! wrong handle...).
About Bedford Terminal: Philip Copp (Coppola) wasn't sure of the name of that terminal, so his manuscript on the "Franklin El" at Brooklyn Public Library has it as "Bergen Station" or "Bergen Terminal". According to one of his hand-drawn maps, there was a brewery adjacent to the transit yard called Bergen Lager Beer and that could explain the discrepency?
BTW, he claims that that location was a "proper railroad yard" operation that even included a turntable!
But that scrap yard certainly does look like it could have been a former rail facility -- it is huge considering that the rest of that stretch of Atlantic is fully developed with attached buildings/warehouses.
SubDude
Coppola corrected himself in the index to volume II . There he notes that "Bergen station at Atlantic & Franklin..." should have read "Bedford station at Atlantic & Franklin..."
So this error had nothing to do with a station on Bergen St or the Bergen Lager Beer Brewery.
Interestingly enough, an 1882 timetable for the BF&CI does show a Bergen St. station.
Thanks. Unfortunately, the BPL only has Volume 1 and I believe it was Copp's original manuscript (working copy) as many pages are annotated by hand with crossed out words and text throughout.
SubDude
Say, Bill, what time were you riding? I was there around 1:00 pm (took the L to Bway/E New York then got the C to Franklin. I then went to Botanic Garden and took the 2 one stop). I went to the BPL (see post re: Philip Copp) and then reversed my course. (I took the liberty of taking some more pictures of the Franklin Line since alot of my shots from the inaugural run weren't up to snuff).
BTW, the smart thing that should be done with those elevator buttons would be to indicate E/B or W/B since the Fulton St. Line RUNS east-west through Brooklyn anyhow. North-South is inaccurate (unless it was in reference to the lines' Manhattan configuration).
SubDude
North/South is accurate! Now what I would really like to see is proper North/South designation on Nassau Street!
10/31/99
SubDude,
I was on that line around 1:15PM,close enough!
I have to disagree with the elevator button fiasco. To Manhattan and To Queens says it all. The porcelain signs in the stairway doesn't say (A)(C) Westbound or Eastbound,right! A confused woman probably unfamiliar with the new setup asked how to get to the Rockaways. I told her go down the long set of stairs and make a sharp right at the bottom and descend the next set of stairs. No sarcasm intended here,but she didn't ask me how to get to the eastbound side! That button panel is all wrong and should be corrected. Not all passengers are transit employees or railfans.
Bill Newkirk
Newkirkbound
You're right, Bill. I wasn't thinking in terms of the layman ridership. They would only think of the lines in regards to Manhattan-bound or Queens-bound.
The buttons should read: Manhattan (or Mnhtn) (A)(C); Queens (A)(C)
SubDude
Bill, I forgot to mention that I rode the Franklin again on my return trip from the Brooklyn Public Library. That was around 4:30pm. I rode on the spanking clean R-68 that was used in the inaugural run.
BTW, the one spot that had a touch of graffiti at Botanic Garden (the signage over the entrance to the IRT walkway) has been successfully cleaned off!
SubDude
Did they clean off the tag on the white door at the south end of the northbound platform?
Wayne
No, I didn't notice that. But I would assume so since the sign was done.
SubDude
It'll never change. Just think of that when you ride the elevator at 168 Street to the upper level where you can pick up the A/B trains. Or so the elevator says.
You are all correct about the elevator buttons. I went back and checked the contract drawings and they were more along the lines of what they should be "Manhattan" and "Queens" and such. So someone changed the specs later and probably thought they were being clearer! At least I dont feel like those of us in planning missed something tho. We're looking into whether it can be corrected, but it'll be awhile.
...and my other thought was that if that person is around someday when an elevator goes in at 62/New Utrecht, that'll be fun (N N/B and B N/B)
BTW, the smart thing that should be done with those elevator buttons would be to indicate E/B or W/B since the Fulton St. Line RUNS east-west through Brooklyn anyhow. North-South is inaccurate (unless it was in reference to the lines' Manhattan configuration).
I don't know why we orient all our thinking to that silly north-south granite island, which looks like a paramecium. I can't understand why anyone wants to live in a place that resembles a pathogen.
In BMT days (showin' the flag!) the Fulton Street L was East-West.
Save your Dodgers' Ticket stubs! Brooklyn will rise again!
Paul -- you are on the money! :-)
Have you guys read or seen the Book, Neighborhoods of Brooklyn. I picked it up and B & N on 5th, and brings back lots of memories. My neighborhood as a kid, was Flatbush, then was change to Midwood, now according to the book it is now Madison Park, but still BROOKLYN
Yeah, Bob, finding out what neighborhood you in live in these days is up for grabs. Alot of this "new age" real estate business going on in Brooklyn (and elsewhere) is based on giving a "marginal" neighborhood (or even one with a genuinely bad reputation) a fancy and appealing title and Vio La!(sp), a neighborhood gets a "make over" (on paper that is).
An area of Flatbush that I lived in as a kid is now called Prospect Lefferts Gardens. Again, this title never existed until I think some time in the late 70's/early 80's when the more "upscale" homeowners of the graystone townhouses of a small 2-3 block area (comprised of Midwood, Rutland Roads and Fenimore Street) started to flex their collective political muscle. So a new "neighborhood" was created to differeniate between just "plain old Flatbush" from the snobby and more "upscale" Propect Lefferts Gardens. (And it didn't hurt that some of those homeowners were/are influential in certain civil circles).
All of that neighborhood renaming crap is about raising the real estate property values. Pure and simple. It's the latest game in town.
SubDude
[All of that neighborhood renaming crap is about raising the real estate property values. Pure and simple. It's the latest game in town.]
I have news for you, its the latest game in ANY town, not just NYC.
True, it is also happening in tghe San Fernando Valley in LA County, what was North Hollywood, is 4 seperate names, Canoga Pk is West Hills, etc. People do not want to included when the old part becomes a "Ghetto" of non-Anglo immigrants and poor Afro-Americans
Everyone, please!
If you go totally off topic (not just a brief aside remark) PLEASE rename the thread.
Franklin Shuttle is now about neigborhood renaming, and Bay Ridge Branch is now talking about TV shows!
Really! This can really waste a lot of peoples time!
Here Here
Isn't that: "hear hear" ???
10/31/99
Paul M,
One thing I didn't stress about the elevator buttons was when first making eye contact,you know exactly where your headed and push in a split second. The way it is now,you have to think a couple of seconds,then chose. Some people may be a little slow,but they're not to blame.
Bill Newkirk
10/30/99
I visited the new display at the Transit Museum gift shop today. This set up is rather nice and interesting. Not only are some artifacts from the NYCTA on display,but also the LIRR,Metro North and the TBTA. I don't want to give it all away,but if you're in the area,check it out. They close at 4PM and all day Sunday,unless this changes for the upcoming holiday season.Don't put it off !!
Bill Newkirk
The 4 PM closing is on Saturdays. Monday to Friday the hours are 8 AM to 8 PM.
They did do a very nice job on that space, and have a very broad selection of books and other items to interest a Subway Buff !
Too bad they don't have some old subway cars :-(
PCC 1001 doesn't count because it's under glass & too small to sit in.
Mr t__:^)
Today I rode PATCO for the second time ever.
I only did 10th/9th to Broadway, but enjoyed it and got my
.85 cents worth(fare hikes are in effect).
I was surprised at how fast the train was, especially
around the numerous turns. When riding other subways, the
trains always crawl around turns.
The huge railfan windows were occupied by starry
eyed 6 year olds, but I got a bit of a view and it was
magnificent. Cars are well kempt and the stations looked
generally the same(8th and Market was jam packed, PATCO is
the most popular Camden/South Jersey Philadelphia/Gallery
route).
I had problems getting out of Broadway station so I just
ducked under the turnstile and walked the BF Bridge back
into the city.
I also visited the SEPTA Transit "Museum". In the gift
shop they were showing a send-off video for the Almond
Joys, with a camera looking out the open window with the
view all the way across the line. There was a book called
"Trains, Trolleys and Transit: A History of Rapid Transit
in Philadelphia". It featured some fantastic photos.
I also took a gander at the O and HO scale AEM-7's they
had in a display case. Very nice.
I ended the day with a ride up to Bridge and Pratt. There
is still a train of Almond Joys in Frankford Yard visible
from the platform. As I've said before, all the renovated
stations( which leaves out Berks(ugh!), Huntingdon and
Church) look like they can handle 8 cars trains, but
probably never will.
The M-4s are fine now. They look sharp, run well and save
for the occasional sign/message error have no bugs. I've
seen pair 1207/1208 so the order is nearly full. They be
no M-3's, mind you, but I think they're fine cars for
replacing them. I guess I'll just have to wait for the
Money Train, now.
Subway
Steve's Homepage
[I had problems getting out of Broadway station so I just
ducked under the turnstile and walked the BF Bridge back
into the city.]
I didn't think you could walk the bridge anymore. And while walking, did you see any signs of it being unsafe?
[I was surprised at how fast the train was, especially
around the numerous turns. When riding other subways, the
trains always crawl around turns.]
Funny, the few times I've been on PATCO I do not consider the bridge run fast. While going to NJ, if you would have looked on the non-scenic side of you (left while facing front) you would have noticed cars whizzing by you. Not pretty.
The bridge can still be walked, although the hours are limited (basically to daylight, so they've just been shortened, most likely, this weekend). Only one side is opened at a time. I believe the north side is currently open - usually it's the south side, which is more scenic, but construction on the bridge probably forced this to the north side.
The walkway is patrolled regularly by a DRPA cop on a golf cart sort of vehicle. At one time your signature was required to cross the bridge but I think that's been stopped.
The walkway is safe but the movement of the bridge, especially when a PATCO train passes beneath, can be a little unnerving.
You are correct about speeds on the bridge. If you watch the "motorman", you will see signals on the control panel in the form of rectangular colored grids. These are, if I recall correctly, red, red over yellow, yellow, yellow over green, and green. This gives the operator the indication of speed that can be used (of course, the computer is controlling the operation anyway, but if manual operation is needed, the operator follows these signals). On the bridge, it's usually a yellow indication, which limits speed to about 35 mph. Yes, the vehicles passing on the bridge, with a 45 mph limit (and who does that?), will literally whiz by. If you walk the bridge, you will get a feel for why the trains are going slowly - the climb is somewhat steep.
No signatures required.
The walk can be taxing, especially in the heat(Saturday was warm).
The bridge is relatively safe, save for the occasional sleeping skell.
Vandalism is to a minimum. If you start from Camden, the walkway is only 24 inches or so wide, and being so close to traffic, it can make your nerves sizzle.
The fare between Phila stations is 85 cents. It's more to ride to NJ. Watch out, Steve, PATCO doesn't like fare beaters!
The El stations are being extended for 8-car trains, as part of a program that began back in the 70's. Whether these will ever run is anybody's guess.
The last pair of M-4's is supposed to arrive within the next 2 weeks.
I thought the machine said between Philly stations and City Hall, Camden.
The train didn't stop at City Hall, it went to Broadway. I'm unfamiliar with PATCO fares, so I guess now I know better.
Do you know how the M-3's are doing? Have they all been scrapped or are some in retirement? Maybe we'll be seing some at Seashore.
I checked again on PATCO fares. You are right (I stand corrected) - the 85 cents is good between all Phila stations as well as between Phila and City Hall/Broadway stations. The fare jumps up for Ferry Ave, Collingswood/Westmont/Haddonfield, and Woodcrest/Ashland/ Lindenwold. Sorry for the confusion.
At least one Budd (M-3) is going to the Pennsylvania Museum (former Arden) in Washington, PA. I've heard another will be going to Rockhill. A local group was trying to raise money to transport another to Seashore. Other than those, I don't know if any others will be preserved, other than a handful for maintenance/non-revenue purposes.
As the guy who started throwing pies around here, I think I should report on a web-site that I found yesterday searching about Officer Joe Bolton. It's www.tvparty.com/lostkidsny.html That particular part of it focuses on kids programs of the 50's and 60's and has a lot of people reminiscing about the shows and their hosts. A couple of people commented there that Froggy the Gremlin on Andy's Gang might have been the inspiration of a lot of the rebelliousness of our generation in the 60's. Froggy had a way of tormenting all the serious special guests who came to Andy's Gang to lecture them on serious topics. He would finish sentences for them and make them into the pretentious fools that they were, or that he liked them to appear to be. They would leave crying or totally bewildered. I still do that to friends or former friends when they'll ask me if I heard what happened, and I'll suggest some ridiculous event.
Anyway the main site www.tvparty.com is loaded with stuff.
Bill, I think you spoke eloquently about the pleasure for us aging folk to think of some of the fun times from our youth. I have long felt that a portion of this site devoted to pie throwing, eye gauging, Who's on First, and Froggy the Gremlin would serve a constructive end. Maybe we could get Officer Joe or Chief Joe to keep an eye on things.
I always remember someone asking Lou Costello, on the tv show, when he was going to grow up. And he answered with a question: " And miss all the fun?"
I hope we can combine our passion for transit and information with a good measure of fun. We seem to remember the fun of the early years, I hope we are all having some fun now too. I sure as hell am...
Was anyone in Bayonne today? I was and took afew pictures. brian
Brian:
We were in Bayonne a few weeks ago to a preview ride of the new Hudson-Bergen line. We took a car tour of Jersey City and saw a lot of track and overhead in place. Is there a way to see your pictures
on the internet?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
In case you were not aware, there are pictures I took of my trip in June on HBLR on this site. I believe they are in the SubTalk Field Trip section.
i took a look a the line last week. the line in bayonne is "almost finished to liberty state park". the line north was still a mess in jeresy city. got a couple picture also.