Hi,
I know I am probably wierd but I am infactuated with subways and mass transit as a whole. Unfortunately I live in Florida and there isn't much out there related to subways for me to find. Does anybody know of any place where I can find various subway items to purchase, or additional information on the web or by catalog? Feel free to E-mail me if you have any info.I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks
Steve
Subway417@aol.com
Steve,
Try ebay (www.ebay.com) Do a search using keywords: subway, transit, elevated (do each one separately). You will usually find a bunch of
items up for auction.
The items are not limited to NYC subway but those are the majority of items you will find for acution.
In addition to eBay (which I wanted to mention, but Allan beat me to it!) you can go to the subway bibliography on this site and purchase the books and videos, etc. via Amazon.com directly.
I've got one more week of vacation coming up, so I want to try to take some day trips that are best done on a weekday schedule. What I hope to do, weather permitting:
-Get the first morning train (8:11) from Jamaica to Montauk. According to the LIRR Montauk branch timetable, the first returning train (11:43) will NOT be interrupted by a trackwork bus. I certainly hope so. Does anyone know if the LIRR slips in unannounced bus diversions?
-Try to do the Danbury and Waterbury branches in one shot. This would require leaving Grand Central at 8:11 (although I might save time by driving to Larchmont), and an hour and a half layover in South Norwalk. I've tried to do Waterbury three times, and each time was thwarted by a surprise bus as noted above. None of these instances was preceded by bad weather.
-Drive to Warminster, PA, do that branch and as much as of the suburban light rail out of the 69th Street that I can. The SEPTA schedules indicate that a midday bus diversion between Glenside and Warminster ends today. I hope they're on time.
-Try to ride an R-62A on the '5' from end to end, particularly the Bronx end. From what fellow Subtalkers have told me it is rather possible to achieve this in the rush hour. If I hop an early bus over the Whitestone and make my way over to Dyre terminal by 6:30, I should be okay.
-Plan to be at Seashore on Saturday the 9th unless it rains, then Sunday. Looking forward to seeing some of you there. I don't know what I'll be wearing, but maybe one of those mall T-shirt stands can stencil the NYC SUBWAY.ORG logo onto a plain white shirt.
-If I'm not totally exhausted, I'll try to make it to A.C. for some (hopefully) monetary gain. The casinos aren't that crowded if you get there before 11:30 when the buses arrive.
Since I only have a computer at work, I'll be offline from 4:30 this afternoon through Tuesday the 12th unless I can somehow get sign-on time at the library. Hopefully I'll be too busy on the rails to suffer withdrawal. Take care!
I think you mean Shoreline (at Branford),not Seashore in Maine. Branford is the one with the Autumn in NY.
My error- I DID mean Shoreline (at Branford). Funny how two trolley museums can have such similar names.
Have a good time at Shoreline, Howard. Both of our museums I'm sure will welcome any SubTalkers that can visit.
We had a good thread on these names many months ago. The best idea we had was that since many trolley lines were built to take people to the beach (during off-peak times) to fill otherwise unused capacity, many had "shore" in their names.
Or similar names:
See Sea Beach
Run Sea Beach!
Alfred Ely Beach!
Howard (and everyone)...
Glad you will try to get to Seashore on Saturday October 9. That's Members' Day, and I'm sure there will be many special cars run, though I don't think we'll have as much NY stuff out as our colleagues at Branford. I'll be there, so if any SubTalkers are up to a drive to Kennebunkport, I'll make sure you get to see our Gibbs Car #3352, the A-train, SIRT #366, etc.
Whichever of the many museums you visit... enjoy... join... support!
Todd,
Sorry about my last posting correcting Howard about the museum names. I didn't know Seashore had a special day that weekend. I guess he meant Seashore after all. Maybe I'll try to talk my wife into going to Maine.
"If I'm not totally exhausted, I'll try to make it to A.C. for some (hopefully) monetary gain. The casinos aren't that crowded if you get there before 11:30 when the buses arrive."
You might want to consider Foxwoods. You could take the LIRR to Geenport, various hotels there have deals that give you a bed, plus a bus to ferry at Orient Point & bus from New London to casino. The Silver Sands is one of those hotels.
Mr t__:^)
I recommend Belmont Park instead. You couldn't pick a more beautiful place to gamble at. (Outside of Saratoga of course) The horses are more of a challenge to handicap-you use your brain instead of guessing, and you can railfan at the same time. With binoculars you can see the LIRR main line from the grandstand.
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
I've done the Foxwoods/Mohegan Sun loop by car, and even though the ambience is much nicer than Atlantic City, it's rather boring. At least in A.C. if you're doing badly at one casino, you can stroll down the Boardwalk to another. At least that seems to work with quarter slots, the only thing I play.
I agree with Howard. 2 Years ago I went to Foxwoods, and was bored plus the food was overpriced, long lines at the slots. This year I went to AC and it was like Vegas. I took the Academy Bus from Port Authority, when we got to the Casino, they gave me vouchers. Low to my suprise when I got to the casino cage, they asked me Cash or Change, and gave me back $20.00. I lost it and went to another Casino. Plus if you want to return early. Academy has busses it seems every 30 mins back to the City.
I too think Atlantic City has much more variety: casinos, boardwalk, etc., BUT you have to drive. The LIRR to Greenport is very nice & the ferry ride is also quite a treat.
P.S. when I go to casinos I always work in a show so I feel I got something for my money.
Mr t__:^)
Amtrack has a connection to Foxwoods, and if you were adventerous you could go to AC by train via Amtrak/NJT in Philly or NJT/SEPTA/NJT, thru tickets are available at Penn Station for either one
Got off the 2-3 at Penn Station last night. The queue at the token
booth was roughly 10 deep. A clerk clad in an MVM shirt told the
people that they could use the MVMs adjacent to the booth. You guessed it, no one moved!!!
Haven't you figured by now that people are afraid of those things?
Afraid? I've used them and they are very easy to use. After all alot of LIRR riders now use the ticket machines, what's the difference?
I see alot of other people using them too, people will adjust to them just like the LIRR ticket machines.
[Got off the 2-3 at Penn Station last night. The queue at the token
booth was roughly 10 deep. A clerk clad in an MVM shirt told the
people that they could use the MVMs adjacent to the booth. You guessed it, no one moved!!!]
Not necessarily a bad decision. Token booth lines almost always move quickly. MVM lines, from what I can tell, don't.
I don't know about that. I use one of the MVMs at GCT once a month (for my $120 X-bus + card) There are more machines then there are clecks, and they made the process so dumb, a child could do it.
The only feature I miss is the ability to pay part in cash, and part on a debit or credit card.
One issue causeing some confusion is the way banks are now promoting their new ATM cards with Visa/Mastercard logos as 'debit cards' that can be used as a credit card.
-Hank
debit cards : a choice: use as "Credit" (only you know) or ATM.
The lack of people at the machines: they are technophobes and that is why we will not go away!
I d rather use it as acredit card, that way they take 2-3 days to take the money out of the account. What Pissed me off was in when i was in GCT last June, needed to but a weekly comm pass to White Plains. Since Metro North Took Credit Cards by mail. I figured the waould take them at the ticket counter. After waiting 20 minutes on line, the clerk said no, I had to get out of line, find a ATM machine pay their fee plus my banks fee, and wait again 20 minutes for my ticket, and barely made my train, which was a hourly schedule. Sorry it was for Valhalla.
do their machines take credit cards?
I do not remember, The machines at GCT were only for single journey tkts, I was buying a weekly pass and had to be validated a certain way with the valid dates on them
Yes, they do.
I love the mvm. I will never go to a token booth again. It only takes 30 sec including credit card authorization
Got one almost as good,even though its not about the mvm...Last Sun I was at the 42nd St booth right outside the entrance to the PABT..the line mustve been 30 deep......so I just walked back inside to the Hudson News stand right inside the door,the lady literally bored to death, and bought my FunPass there...BTW,are the MVMs there operating yet?? How long do they have to 'test'??
I'm from Brazil, but I visit NY every year since 96. So I know and admire your metro sistem. But I have a little doubt: We ara building a metro here in my city, and people got rely angry because of the mess caused by the building process ( the traffic gets terrible, the stores don't sell as much as they could, etc.) How did you avoid those problems in NY?
Thanks a lot, anyway:
Santhiago Costa Manso.
It has been a very long time since we had to endure the building of the subway here in NY. Most of it was completed in the 1940's with a few extensions in the 1960's thru 1990's.
How do we avoid these problems? We don't. In typical NY style - we complain alot and live with the inconvenience (also known as Grin and Bear it!.
Or in the case of the often proposed 2nd Avenue Subway - we listen and the Transit agency promises and nothing gets done.
During the time the subway was built(1900's through 40's) constant building and construction was commonplace, so people didn't mind it as much as they do now.
I'm sure it's easier now than it was 50 years ago(no one's using dynamite:))
You have made one assumption that is incorrect about NY City during the time of the building of the Subways. Metropolitan development, for the most part, followed the building of the subways and not vice versa. As the subways were built, neighborhoods grew around the new lines. Therefore, there was not the huge disruption you are assuming took place. Another thing to consider!! During the era of the building of the major portion of the subways in NYC, New Yorkers were very supportive of the subways. Even during the 63rd St routes and the Archer Avenue lines, there were never any major outcries due to detours and inconvenience.
The best answer would be someone from LA who lives or works along the Red Line. I know driving down Wilshire or Up Vermont Ave was a pain in the butt. They are still building so they probably know best
I'm from Los Angeles. I live one block from the Red Line and work two blocks from it, and use it every day. The disruption caused by subway construction is only temporary, and the benefits in time saved, convenience, and travel comfort far outweigh the price paid during the construction period. If only the money spent on highway construction had gone to subways, light rail, and commuter rail instead.
You live in the Central City, but what about all those people in the Valley or W .LA areas. It does not help us, I should say them, because I don t live in LA anymore
I just wanted to know if anyone has any suggestions pertaining to possible routes from Queens Blvd via 63 Street Tunnel. Are they going to divert the F train from 51 Street tunnel to the 63 Street tunnel, the R, or add another service.
Please tell me what you think.
This topic has been discussed ad extreme nauseum on this forum.
Let's leave it at this, please:
The Q may or may not go back to Broadway, the G will never see Queens Blvd again and there may be a V train.
OK guys, time for all of us to let up a little. Remember BX55 last week? We all got caught up in that and I made the mistake of interjecting my opinion in relation to what one of my colleague wrote and the result was turmoil. I love reading about the subway, and baseball and how they were connected. But this stuff about Rudy. It makes me react with anti-Hillary diatribes. Is is possible we can ease up on the politics---as least until next summer when it starts to heat up again. There have been some mean things said, and I've said a few of them. Maybe we should lighten up and keep on the subjects we love. The museum controversy only inflames all of us. How about that? Sea Beach Fred Peritore as peacemaker. Out here most of my friends think I'm an agitator. Maybe I'm getting wisdom as I approach 59.
Yea Fred #4 Sea Beach Man SoundsGood. I think I will change to 1 Brighton Exp Man, what do you think. RSVP Bob
I changed my title from Sea Beach Man to Sea Beach Fred, but the #4 sounds good. I will add that to my title, and your #1 Brighton Beach is great. I hereby give you that title as official. Good show. Too bad we don't agree about politics. Then we'd really be pals.
At least both of your favorite subway routes ran Triplexes.
And now that the Mets have actually made it to post season play, I take back what I said earlier (what can you say about a team which plays in Flushing - that sort of thing). Naturally, I'm very happy for them. Now let's see just how far they can go. Maybe there will be a Subway Series after all.
Steve B 8AVEXP: The odds are against it but the odds of the Mets winning anything in 1969 and 1973 were much greater and we know what happened. In baseball much is possible and when the Mets play the way they played yesterday, well, very good things can happen. I'm optimistic they will be giving a good account of themselves against Arizona.
I would just like to say, The Chicago Transit Authoirty isn't as bad as people on this board say it is.
The problem is that just in the last 5 years they finally got a staff that has some brains and are not Jack-Asses.
If you look at the Orange Line which opened in 1993, it has to be one of the quitest and nicest Rapid Transit lines in the world. The trains make about as mush noise as Metra Trains do. And Metra is pretty quite.
You have to realize that these people are dealing with a 100 plus year old system and have to renovate it with a limited amount of money and time.
The 2600 series cars which failed last winter were already schedueled for renovation, that just made it more necessay. Right now they are being renovated and the project won't be 100% complete until 2003. The new cars are really nice and have a noticeable difference. Some people say they have ridden in the newly renovated cars and they suck, but there is a difference, now all 2600 series cars that even just go in for minor work to the Skokie Shops get the paint removed.
They are doing everything they can to renovate the system, but are having some difficulties. Overnight service that wasn't used HAD to be cut in order to balance the budget and show that the CTA would be able to pay back money borrowed.
Just today they found out that the Feds have given 7 million for the Douglas Branch and Ravenswood projects. Aprroxiamently 1% of what they asked for. It isn't easy to get Billions of dollars, but it takes a staff like they now have under Frank Kruesi(spelling??).
As far as ridership is concerned, it is higher then ever. How can you deny ridership figueres when it is calculated eletronically by turnstiles and bus fare card machines. It can't be exact due to day long passes, but it can be estimated pretty close. Now it proabaly is a little higher due to fare beaters, but the number of them has gone down by allot.
The bottom line is, the CTA has take a complete turn for the better. Granite it still has to go through another complete turn to be the best it can be, but it has come a damn long way in the last 5 years or so. The stafff has got ridership to go up instead of down which hadn't happened for around 15 years.
BJ
The problem is that just in the last 5 years they finally got a staff that has some brains and are not Jack-Asses.
Brains or not, they're still political hacks whose first priority is doing Mayor Daley's bidding, not providing decent transit service. And Hizzoner Daley has himself made comments that public transit is becoming obsolete. Easy to say when everybody you know rides to work in the back of a limo.
Granted, the CTA has made significant strides within the past five years or so. The new farecard system (almost identical to NYC's MetroCard system) is a huge plus, along with some of the minor service improvements. However, they still have a long way to go before Chicago has the mass transit system it deserves.
If you look at the Orange Line which opened in 1993, it has to be one of the quitest and nicest Rapid Transit lines in the world. The trains make about as mush noise as Metra Trains do. And Metra is pretty quite.
The Orange Line is a step in the right direction. Having the new 3200-Series trains running on brand-new ballasted track makes a huge difference in the noise and comfort of the line. Having said that, I'm still a bit disappointed in the new stations along the Orange Line... They look more like detention facilities than transit stations. Architecturally, the city had a great opportunity to do something noteworthy, but squandered it in typical fashion. The fact that Chicago has such a rich architectural hertitage only makes it that much more galling.
You have to realize that these people are dealing with a 100 plus year old system and have to renovate it with a limited amount of money and time.
Yes, and so does NYC. And I agree that the CTA is grossly underfunded... One of the effects of having a state legislature dominated by suburban interests. However, the CTA seems content to spend their money on superficial cosmetic changes while they continue to wail and moan about not being able to afford basic infrastructure improvements. Example: God knows how much money they spent on the automated station-announcement system on the Green Line, while the Douglas Branch of the Blue Line continues to crumble -- quite literally. How badly do we really need a computerized voice to tell us that a train is arriving at the station?
The 2600 series cars which failed last winter were already schedueled for renovation, that just made it more necessay. Right now they are being renovated and the project won't be 100% complete until 2003. The new cars are really nice and have a noticeable difference. Some people say they have ridden in the newly renovated cars and they suck, but there is a difference, now all 2600 series cars that even just go in for minor work to the Skokie Shops get the paint removed.
The 2600's are about 15-20 years old, and their electrical problems have been known about since day one. (The 2600's also seem to have an annoying problem with electrical fires.) As it stands, the 2600's form the bulk of the CTA fleet. However, no action was taken until the system finally imploded on that first rush hour after the blizzard. (And keep in mind that the blizzard was on a Saturday. The CTA had two full days to prepare for Monday's rush hour, but continued as if all was well.)
They are doing everything they can to renovate the system, but are having some difficulties. Overnight service that wasn't used HAD to be cut in order to balance the budget and show that the CTA would be able to pay back money borrowed.
And that's just the problem: The whole CTA mentality is about numbers on a spreadsheet and political perception. How their decisions actually impact the people who use the system is a non-issue.
Just today they found out that the Feds have given 7 million for the Douglas Branch and Ravenswood projects. Aprroxiamently 1% of what they asked for. It isn't easy to get Billions of dollars, but it takes a staff like they now have under Frank Kruesi.
Kruesi, while not as bad as some of his predecessors, is still a political hack who can't take a piss without asking permission from Daley. And Daley himself has made repeated comments about how he feels public transortation is obsolete. The CTA will continue to decline as long as Daley is on the 5th floor at City Hall and Springfield is dominated by Pate Philip and his band of suburbanites who take every opportunity to express their contempt for the city. And they're the ones who go to Washington and grovel for money to rebuild the system.
The bottom line is, the CTA has take a complete turn for the better. Granite it still has to go through another complete turn to be the best it can be, but it has come a damn long way in the last 5 years or so. The stafff has got ridership to go up instead of down which hadn't happened for around 15 years.
Ridership has increased mainly because of external factors such as increased residential development within the city, although the new unlimited-ride passes were also a big factor. And the system is barely able to accomidate it's exisiting ridership, to say nothing about future increases in ridership. In order for public transit in Chicago to be the best it can be, I'm afraid it must be completely rebuilt from the ground up. One idea that may be worth considering is to abolish the CTA altogether, and put Metra in charge of the L and Pace in charge of the busses. It amazes me how Metra and Pace are able to offer such excellent service while the CTA always seems to be the bastard stepchild of the three RTA divisions.
As far as physical infrastructure and rolling stock go, the CTA would do well to take its cues from newer systems such as the Washington Metro and MARTA in Atlanta. My friends here in Chicago think I'm feeding them a load of b.s. when I tell them the MARTA trains have carpeting and actually drive themselves. I was particularly impressed with how clean and quiet the Atlanta system is, not to mention ATC on all their trains. Chicago should also take a close look at how New York has managed to turn its system around. As I understand it, the NYC subway was in a position about 20 years ago much like the position the CTA finds itself in now, but seems to have managed to turn itself around 180 degrees. I had heard all the stereotypes about New York subways before my first visit to NYC, but was impressed to find much of the system actually in better condition than Chicago's. Bravo New York, shame on Chicago!
For a weekly e-zine chronicling the trails and tribulations of the CTA, check out the Weekly Breakdown at:
http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/
Sorry for the long post,
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
David: Don't be sorry about your long post. It's an excellent rebuttal to what seems like a press release from the Merchandise Mart. For every two steps the CTA takes forward, it also takes three back. I'll believe the CTA has improved when "A" and "B" express service is restored, and owl service is restored to all rapid transit lines. I don't believe that "no one" uses owl service; it's used by people that don't have easy transportation alternatives. Public transit is a utility that should be offered 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, just like water and electricity. The CTA has long been in decline, and I am glad for any improvement. I won't even mention the surface system - it hasn't been the same since the disappearance of PCC cars and trolley buses.
Rome wasn't built in a day and the CTA plugs along. The rehabbed cars are quite nice and work much better. They were scheduled to e rehabbed prior to the blizzard and were due for the work.
The RTA and the folks down state have not been as supportive of the CTA as they should be, but when they moved to the burbs they took their money with them.
A/B service made a ride in from Howard acceptable. It is a loooong ride now on the red line.
The carpet on the DC trains is spotted and the Orange is just too 70's
Unfortunatly it is too easy to deffer capital maint. until it's almost to late to fix what has been left behind.
CTA is a good system but it could be better with.
OPTO is a good idea, but not for all routes at all times. I still say the Red line should have conductors over its entire route at least during the day.
The beginning of the end of streetcars in Chicago began when CTA was formed in 1947. They could have been kept on some of the major through routes (Clark/Wentworth, Broadway/State, Western, Madison).
Where streetcars have worked is where there is room for right of way away from cars like Shaker Heights in Cleveland and the St. Charles line in New Orleans, or in short sections of dense central cities where traffic is slow anyway.
If the Chicago streets were wide enough for dedicated lanes it could work.
See I told you guys! I'm not the only one who can see the demonic influence in mass transit management!
Satan my butt! The problem, much as in NY is the money and who controls it. As long as the overpaid extreme suburbanites can purchase the government, transit service for the dense urban cores will get short shrifft. If you wish to attribute the results of human greed and prejudice to satanic influence so be it. I prefer to think it is stupidity and evil behaviour of fellow humans who exercise free will and are chumps.
Not one word from any of you guys on the eliminaion of conductors.
While my earliest independent subway experiences were as an eleven year old cruising the CTA lines while summering with grandpa, I have now lived 27 years with the BART with single person crews on ten car trains of 75' cars. Although I could name half a dozen stations on the old North South thru route which have curved platforms(BART's are straight) I am not adamant about multibody crews. Further I would remind you that the Evanston line was the pioneer with the "one-man" cars #'s 1-50 with fareboxes. They came in the late fifties! If the ATU was willing then, what is so much worse forty years later?
Excellent point about elimination of the conductors...
OPTO is feasible in such places as the Evanston line, which is located at the fringes of the rapid transit system and doesn't see the heavy ridership that the more central parts of Chicago do. Also, the trains used on the Evantson route are only six cars long at the most, due to the shorter platforms.
OPTO also works better on the lines that use the newer 3200-Series trains, such as the Midway and Ravenswood routes. The 3200's were specifically designed for OPTO, while the rest of the fleet was designed for two-man operation and was later sort of jury-rigged for OPTO. Things have improved since the older trains have been refitted with full-width cabs, but there is still a noticable delay at any of the island-type platforms where the doors open on the left-hand side of the train (this includes the vast majority of stops on the Red and Blue Lines -- the two busiest lines in the system).
When the conductors were first eliminated, here's what CTA communters where forced to endure at each stop:
1. Train pulls into station and comes to a stop.
2. Operator removes the key from his console.
3. Operator opens the door of his cab and exits.
4. Operator moves to the opposite side of the train and inserts key into door control console.
5. Operator opens his window.
6. Operator finally opens the train doors.
Depending on how lethargic the operator was, this process usually took a full 5-15 seconds. Often, frustrated passengers would pull the emergency release handle for the doors and exit on thier own.
7. Close doors and reverse process. Add another 5-15 seconds.
8. Repeat process at every single stop (no more A/B express service, remember). This adds up to a significant delay which has improved slightly with the full-width cabs, but still remains a factor.
Interesting how the CTA said this change in procedure would not cause delays nor pose a safety hazard, yet they still see a need to have conductors on the downtown portions of the Red Line and Blue Line subways.
Seen scrawled on a wall at the Fullerton Red Line stop: "CTA = Chasing Them Away." How fitting.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Thank you David! Well said, I noticed your e-mail address has you perhaps affiliated with the 9th ward. Who is your alderman? I am just wondering why or if he or she did not introduced an ordinance to make one-man operation illeagal. Maybe fearful of his majesty little richie.
9th Ward?
Nope, it's The Nth Ward, the name I made up for my personal website. "Nth" refers to infinity (The nth degree, etc.). I just thought it was rather clever.
I actually live in the 43rd Ward, the domain of Vi Daley. No relation to da boss, but she is one of his loyalists, as are most of the other aldermen save for one or two independent voices.
In reality, City Council basically serves as a 50-member rubber stamp committee for Little Big Man.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
The 2600 series cars were scheduled to go in for maintanence before the Snow Storm, it just made it seem like they all the suddenly wanted them renovated from the news reports.
I would also presonally not like to see Metra take over. Have you taken a ride on the Electric Line? Many of the Stations are falling down a dirty. The CTA takes care of it's old stations, Metra doesn't. Even if the station is 100 years old, the CTA keeps it from faling down like Metra. Have you ever ridden The BNSF, Metra's most busiest line? The Stations at Clde, Cicero, Austin, Halsted, and Western Avenue are crap. Granite they are in bad neighborhoods, but they could still remove the graffitti and clean up the stations once in a while. Instead Metra is planning service extentions when the current system needs to be invested in.
I may be old fashioned, but wouldn't you rather have a person announce the stations and have money spent in other places then putting carpeting in the trains? I thought Bart and the LA Red Line were neat, but would rather see a system like the CTA. Not to mention the smell of urine in MARTA Stations and trains, even downtown!
As far as politics go, that really doesn't bother me much. THE CTA is substancially underfunded, but is looking at balancing their budget this or next year.
I will always like the city of Chicago and the CTA. The only real problem I see is that Purple Line express service should be offered at all times it runs, not just during the rush hours. A & B Service is crap, Express service should be run with an over lapping station half way between the route. Ex: Two Express A and Express B trains run between Howard and the Loop. One makes all stops between dowtown and Wilson and then runs express to Howard. The Other runs Express to Wilson and then all stops to Howard.
One final question, what has the NCYSubway done that makes it so great?? If I remeber correctly it is even more crowded then the CTA and rarely gets above 35mph, 25 in some cases. CTA goes 55 between most stations.
BJ
The 2600 series cars were scheduled to go in for maintanence before the Snow Storm, it just made it seem like they all the suddenly wanted them renovated from the news reports.
A major part of the refit is installing sheilds on the undersides of the trains to prevent snow from entering the motors and shorting out the equipment. I suppose it's possible the CTA had the foresight to consider this before the blizzard, but somehow I doubt it.
I would also presonally not like to see Metra take over. Have you taken a ride on the Electric Line? Many of the Stations are falling down a dirty.
The reason for this is simple: The Metra stations within the city limits of Chicago are city property and are maintained by the city, not by Metra. In other words, they're being maintained by the same people who "maintain" the CTA stations.
Metra owns the rolling stock and operates some parts of the system (other parts are operated by private contract carriers such as Union Pacific or Burlington Northern), while each of the stations are owned and maintained by whatever municipality they are located within.
The CTA takes care of it's old stations, Metra doesn't. Even if the station is 100 years old, the CTA keeps it from faling down like Metra. Have you ever ridden The BNSF, Metra's most busiest line? The Stations at Clde, Cicero, Austin, Halsted, and Western Avenue are crap.
Ever been to any station north of Addison on the Red Line, or any station on the Brown Line, the Purple Line or the Douglas branch of the Blue Line? I rest my case.
I may be old fashioned, but wouldn't you rather have a person announce the stations and have money spent in other places then putting carpeting in the trains? I thought Bart and the LA Red Line were neat, but would rather see a system like the CTA. Not to mention the smell of urine in MARTA Stations and trains, even downtown!
I'd like to see a system that is capable of getting me from Point A to Point B in a reasonable amount of time, cost and convenience, while allowing me to retain some shred of personal dignity. Can't comment on LA Metro or BART, but I've used MARTA a number of times and found the Lenox, Arts Center, North Avenue, Peachtree Center, Five Points, Omni-GWCC, and Airport stations each to be spotless compared to even the cleanest stations on the CTA.
As far as politics go, that really doesn't bother me much. THE CTA is substancially underfunded, but is looking at balancing their budget this or next year.
First rule of being a Chicagoan: EVERYTHING in this town is political. And the reason the CTA is looking to have a balanced budget this or next year is because they are required by state law to do so. This is nothing new; to my knowledge they have *always* been prohibited from running a deficit. Hence, all the cuts in service.
I will always like the city of Chicago and the CTA. The only real problem I see is that Purple Line express service should be offered at all times it runs, not just during the rush hours. A & B Service is crap, Express service should be run with an over lapping station half way between the route. Ex: Two Express A and Express B trains run between Howard and the Loop. One makes all stops between dowtown and Wilson and then runs express to Howard. The Other runs Express to Wilson and then all stops to Howard.
I love Chicago too -- I came to this city six years ago and have adopted it as my hometown. Hence, why I feel so passionately about how it deserves a much better transit system. Read my next posting for my ideas on how to improve the system, as they are too numerous to be included here.
One final question, what has the NCYSubway done that makes it so great?? If I remeber correctly it is even more crowded then the CTA and rarely gets above 35mph, 25 in some cases. CTA goes 55 between most stations.
A few things come to mind:
1. No matter where I am in Manhattan, I'm never more than a short walk away from a subway stop.
2. Trains are longer and wider, especially on the IND / BMT routes.
3. Trains are much more quiet.
4. Most, if not all, routes run 24 hours.
5. Stations, while still a bit raw and gritty, are generally well-kept and maintained. In addition, New York is aggressively renovating most of the Manhattan stations.
6. Station signage is consistent and makes a very complex system relatively easy to navigate.
7. Service is very frequent and much more reliable.
New York and Chicago are both major cities, and their rapid transit systems each get crowded during rush hours. That's just a fact of life in the big city. However, I was always able to find a seat on the NYC subway during off-peak periods. Can't say that about the CTA.
I didn't have a clear view of the speedmometer, but I'd say the express trains in NYC run much faster than 35 MPH. Some of the other people here could probably give more info on that. The only times a CTA train goes anywhere near 55 are: 1) Possibly on the Evanston express route, 2) the longer segments between stops where the trains run in an expressway median strip, on the outer reaches of the system, 3) The train is running express and skipping stops to make up for a delay caused by a mechanical failure -- not an uncommon event, actually, or 4) the motorman is drunk and the train is plunging off the el tracks.
Stay tuned for what I would do to improve the system...
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
CTA trains run pretty fast in the subway portions - and the noise level is positively deafening. I would hope the 2600s receive some sort of insulation during their rehab. That's the one thing I was really disappointed about with them during my last visit to the Windy City in 1996.
I don't mind the high speed; in fact, I love it. It's the noise level which is disturbing.
I have ridden the CTA N. of Addison St. Granite some of the stations are old, but some are new and beautiful. Take Loyola, Granville, Davis St, Linden, Western Avenue, etc. Acually Belmont, Fullerton, Wellington, Diversy, Armitage, and Sedgwick are in bad shape. Addison is the first good station that is Elevated.
The CTA keeps it's old stations up to standard in my opinion. The signeage should be changed to reflect the new color coding, but that is in the process of being replaced.
I would say the Douglas branch is the only line that is horrible and crap. I avoid it because of the low speeds, but I might have to take my last ride in the future.
The CTA has also annoounced the renovation of 25 rail stations set to begin in 60-90 days. Read the articles on their web site.
Besides Manhattan, I would say the CTA is in way better shape then the NYC Subway. What station is decorated like Davis St. outside of Manhattan???
Trains do reach above 55 in almost all cases. Douglas branch because of need to rebuild, but otherwise just short slow streches. You can't honestly think that NYC doesn't have more slow zones then the CTA.
BJ
On Thursday, 9/30/1999, I rode the Newark Subway. The "Proof of Payment" system goes into effect October 4. On 9/30 extra staff was at several stations helping riders use the machines. Most boarded with valid tickets or passes. On my car, a staff member politely, cheerfully explained to each cash passenger (mostly teenagers) that a ticket would be required Monday. One of the instructors told me that the new "one-trip" $1 ticket would allow unlimited riding and re-riding for two hours. Then I walked from the loop along the streets crossing the West Orange Branch. Men and machines are working furiously. Most of the old track is out. New grading, new ballast, new track is going in. A local told me that the rush is to get freight service restored, as they have already passed the restoration deadline.
Joe. When I was in Newark on Monday, I didn't ask anybody anything. I assumed that before you board a car, you validated your ticket. Is it that the card will be valid for 2 hours after that, and that they don't care if you ride back and forth for two hours? Did they flat out and say that it was good for two hours worth of riding? Being a cheapskate, if that's so, I'll be in Newark more frequently to ride the PCC's. Paul
Yes. At Franklin Avenue loop I asked an instructor, a man in a suit who was helping people use the ticket machines. He said the tickets would be valid for 2 hour unlimited off-and-on riding. I quickly looked over the wordy regulations posted nearby and could see no reference to 2 hours. The ticket does not clearly state your point of origin (as the Long Beach, California, system does). I think the posted notices warn of a fine up to $100 for riding without a valid ticket, so I would like to find the 2-hour rule and the back-and-forth, on-and-off interpretation in print on a NJT brochure! If allowed, I will enjoy it!
I'm not sure if it is laid up at concourse but the subway car 2674 has a messed up door. It one of the 4 from the leading end.
That car is part of the Concourse Fleet. Can you be more specific about the defect. I'm not sure what you are referring to. Thanks
The door doesn't open. If you look at it from the sky and the top is the number 1 end, one of the four closest door have the problem. Again, looking at it the same way the lower left doesn't open.
I'm still not clear as to the problem but I just called Concourse and told them to get the car off the road and check the doors. Thanks again.
A door by the transverse cab doesn't open.
Oculus has awoken-- it is in plain view, the plywood is gone and it is very colorful. The connection to Park Place has an IND look-- Wayne has already been e-mailed to get some pictures!
Park Place is supposed to open today but at 8:30am still closed. Update tomorrow along with a full description of Oculus and Park Place (if open)!
Ok, what the heck is Oculus??
Obviously you did not read Peggy's Line by Line for the 8th Avenue ! It is a mosaic artwork.
Alll over the Chambers/ WTC complex are mosaic "eyes" staring at you-over 300 of them! they are based on real eyes. The big eye is located on the floor. If you will exit the WTC by the E train and walk down the passageway towards the IRT and A train, go up the ramp and when the plywood ends you will see Oculus. For a full description see www.nycsubway.org/lines
Pictures will be forthcoming. I do expect that the area which is railed off will become a hmeless hotel- I hope the cops chase them away. Also if you'll note the IRT mezzanine it has Faux IND look tile with a yelloow and blue pattern-more forthcoming. I will sned Dave a complete update
Ahhh, thank you. I was wondering what all those strange eyes were. Now, could you explain why there are coffe cups on the Lexington Ave. express platform at 59 Street? And what are those funky metal things at Brighton Beach?
I'll have to recheck Brighton beach. As far as 59th St/ Lex-- the theme is "Blooming" the coffee cups, actually they are TEA CUPS (Dave- please change!) and along with the slippers preview the big mosaic in the underpass. See www.nycsubway.org/lines. Click on Lexington Avenue or BMT Broadway Subway
While we're on the subject of unusual decorations, why the Alice in Wonderland motif at 50th Street on the 1/9? I can't think of anything in the station's neighborhood that would make Alice particularly appropriate. Or was it just a matter of wanting to put it _somewhere_?
OCULUS is a giant eyeball mosaic which they put on a platform at the head end of the passageway alongside the "E" platform (near Park Place exits). It has been hidden behind a blue plywood wall. There are 332 other eyes staring out from the walls all over the Chambers Street-WTC and Chambers Street-H&M stations (and their associated entranceways and mezzanines).
I will get over there as soon as humanly possible to take pictures of it.
Wayne
I flagged there on Wed. It would be a long shot if it opens on schedule. There was still a lot of cleaning left to be done.
Believe it or not, Park Place **is** open. I saw the artists working on Oculus last Night-- it is very colorful- nice bright colors. I did compliment the artists who were giving the big eye their big eye.
Recently, I have noticed new SEPTA passenger info signs at some, but not all trolley and el stations. Among the changes noted:
A new four panel sign that lists all stations, A/B skip stop info; A Station Directory, listing transfer routes; A How-to get there sign "To Get To, Airport, Take, MF to 30th Street,..."; and the rules of riding SEPTA.
An updated map; with the entire SEPTA rail system (well at least most of it... the trolleys get its usual 'continues on street')... minor updates include: Frankford Transportation Center instead of Bridge-Pratt; and the University City R1/R3 station is no longer listed as 'proposed'. It also listes the PATCO line in full, with the disclaimer (NOT a SEPTA service!)
Some of the hanging exit signs have been updated as well -- now it is a red box with white letters.
Some of the trolley sign entrances have a picture of a trolley now. These have not been fully 'rolled out' yet.
On the full rail map, it makes specific mention of the Regional Rail System that the endpoint is marked by number and color -- thought SEPTA was dropping color codes?
I have seen the new maps at 30th and 2nd Streets, adn the new trolley entrance signs at some 19th street entrances. They look nice, and are somewhat easier to understand.
Yes, I've noted them as well. The map at 30th Street registers the ADA stations and the two new stations for the R2.
I noticed them around the middle of August.
As I mentioned before, they still had maps from as far back as 1982.
BTW, Steve Brookens, The "toothless wonder" we all know and love from 1998's infamous SEPTA strike(next one:2001) got elected for another 3 years as head of TWU 234. Oh joy.
When I began working near City Hall in 1967, I usually took the Brighton Local home to Cortelyou Road station.
Often, though, I'd top off my day by taking a "scenic route." It took longer, but gave me some mid-week railfanning opportunities.
I set out to make my routes circuitous, but never backtrack, so that I could claim I was taking an alternate route, not merely a sidetrip.
A favorite of mine was to take the Barclay St. Ferry to Hoboken, the PATH to Hudson Terminal, and the BMT at Cortlandt St. This almost brought me back to my starting point, but not quite.
The longest "scenic route" I ever took was halfway out of necessity. This was before 1967 when I had to travel between downtown and my then-home on Marlborough Rd. During a subway strike, when there was no certain way of getting between Brooklyn and Manhattan, I took the PATH to Newark and a bus to Newark Airport. At Newark Airport there was a a connecting airport bus which ran from Newark to Kennedy with a stop at (of all good luck) the BMT station at Caton and St. Paul's Court. This left me as close to home as if the trains were running.
Who else takes/has taken such scenic routes? What were your favorites? Or the longest?
Since I work in Bensonhurst and live in Woodhaven I often come home a different way each day. I usually ride a different Southern division BMT line every day. And the first workday the Franklin Shuttle is open., I'll have yet another way to get home.
I remember one way I went home from manhatten, but it was by bus. From Port Authority, I think it was the Blvd Transit, ran down 7th Ave, Through the Holland Tunnel, down Hudson Blvd thru Jersey City and Bayonne, across the Bayonne Bridge. Changed to the RT R-1 on Richmond Terrace, to St George, then the old Electric Ferry to Bay Ridge, and then the B 9 Bus to Ocean Ave, and then walked the 3 blocks home. Also at the time if visiting family in the Bx, took the Q44 to Jamaica from the Zoo, Then Jamaica, El, A Train, Franklin Shuttle, Brighton to Kings Hwy. Much more exciting then the 2-5 trains then the Brighton. At least for the return trip. We always went by subway to their homes
>>>Who else takes/has taken such scenic routes? What were your favorites? Or the longest? <<<
When I worked in Chelsea and lived in Bay Ridge, I would sometimes take the #1 to South Ferry, then the ferry, the SIRT to Grasmere, the then-S53 to Bay Ridge, and walk home. This was pre Metrocard so it would involve three fares and a quarter for the ferry.
I sometimes take a ride from Flushing to Tottenville.
(out:) LIRR to Penn, #1 to South Ferry, ferry, bus to Tottenville; (back) SIRT to St. George (free if you get out in Tompkinsville and walk 5 blocks!), ferry, #1 to Penn, LIRR to Flushing.
Every MTA operation except Metro North is covered in this trip, I believe.
My detours have never been as drastic as those, not by train at least. However I do that to a degree. For instance if I'm going to Coney from Atlantic/Flatbush (I ride the LIRR) I take the Brighton One way and either the Sea Beach or West End back. To Yankee Stadium I take the "D" one way, the IRT the other. I many times take the LIRR Montauk Branch from LIC. I do take trips on trains to railfan without using it as an excuse to get somewhere.
By the way, as I like to ride motorcycles I definitely take ridicuously long roundabout sightseeing detours. I live in East Meadow but have come home from work in Brooklyn by bike by going over the R. Moses Bridge to Captree and Ocean Pkway back to the Meadowbrook. I once went by bike from Lake George to Rutland, Vt (about 30mi due East of L. George) by going through Quebec, Canada to go from NY to Vt!!!! I even got on my bike to go to the corner deli & ended up in Providence R.I.
I also take the Montauk branch to LIC about once a month, just for a change of scenery - even though I work right above Penn Station.
[I also take the Montauk branch to LIC about once a month, just for a change of scenery - even though I work right above Penn Station.]
Same here. There's just something about the train to LIC that evokes railroading at its most elemental. Maybe it's seeing the city's gritty underside and then walking through the LIC yard. Penn Station is, how to put this, a more _sanitized_ experience.
BTW - I took the LIC line yesterday, and saw what looked like a crime scene investigation in the Fresh Pond NY&A yard. There were a total of about ten uniformed cops, and seven or eight men in plainclothes, in three groups each about 100 feet apart. One of the men had some sort of wheeled distance-measuring device. Dunno what had happened, but I'd assume it was a fairly serious incident given the manpower involved.
The history of the LIC branch is one of the most interesting (at least I think so) of all the rail lines in the NYC area- the part from LIC to Haberman was built by the Flushing RR in 1854 (which then turned north to Flushing); from Jamaica to Fresh Pond in 1868 by the South Side RR of LI (which then turned south to Bushwick terminal); and the final piece from Haberman to Fresh Pond around 1876 by the LIRR. Before the tunnels were built under the East River in 1910, and for several years after that, LIC was the LIRR's most important station. Besides trains to eastern LI, one could also go to Manhattan Beach, Brighton Beach, the Rockaways and Bay Ridge from LIC.
According to National Geographic, Conde Naste and a couple other international Magazine. Metro North/Amtrack Hudson Valley is one of the 3 top scenic routes in the USA. Especially on the Train to Montreal. I think it is the Adrondick. There was even a A&E show on it this [past summer, Great Trainrides of the World. My brother lives in Yorktown Hts, and when I visit him and have to go into the city, I enjoy taking the first car to GCT for the view. But 3/4 times you can t see out of the windows they are so dirty
The Northway (I-87) from Albany to Montreal is also very scenic if you're driving. I've ridden on it by motorcycle many times.
Try the train, from what I hear it is beautiful, especially about this time of year. One of these days I will do it. My next train ride will be BART IN SF this Wednesday if all goes well, then to Michigan for my nephews wedding. Maybe if I have time I will do Red Line in LA and Metro Link on the way back in LA. There is a train in Hawaii, on Maui, Narrow Gage Steam thru the sugar and pineapple fields. In fact in Maui there used to be a real railroad until WW II.The Hawaii paper had some articles about it a few weeks ago, kids on Maui used to take it to school
Northway was even more scenic when it wasn't as overgrown as it is now. Too bad they couldn't finish it in time for Expo 67. I remember that experience all too well.
I remember taking a long way to Saturday school once on Feb. 10, 1968. My mother and I took our usual bus to Port Authority, and the usual A train to 14th St. We walked down to the Canarsie platform, and there was no train. Five minutes went by, then ten, then fifteen, and still no train. No announcements, no nothing. I looked down the westbound track numerous times and saw what looked like a train at 6th Ave., but wasn't sure. At first, we contemplated getting over to the 6th Ave. station, but if there was no train at 8th Ave., it wouldn't do any good. Then I got the idea of taking an A train to Hoyt-Schermerhorn, changing to the GG, and taking it to Metropolitan Ave. And so we did. My strongest memory of that GG ride was wondering, if there were any stations with center island platforms. I thought Classon Ave. was intriguing with its provision for a middle track, and my previously raised question was answered when we got to Bedford-Nostrand. There were "All trains this side" signs which pointed to the outer track. Naturally, I thought, what was that third track for? Now I know. I was perhaps a half hour late for class, and got a round of applause from my classmates as I came in through the door. Then I had to tell the teacher there was a problem on the subway. She was pretty good about it.
We weren't sure if the problem on the Canarsie line had been corrected, and weren't going to take any chances. So it was back to Port Authority on the GG (not in the first car this time), then the A.
Bob, when was the regular route to the tunnel built? (The one thru Kew, Forest Hills, Woodside, and H.P.)
That also goes to the LIC station.
That was the original LIRR main after the Atlantic tunnel closed and the Brooklyn terminal became useless (it was forced to use horsecars because of a steam ban by the City of Brooklyn).
>>> Besides trains to eastern
LI, one could also go to Manhattan Beach, Brighton Beach, the Rockaways and Bay Ridge from
LIC. <<<
Other than Manhattan & Brighton Beach, you can still go to all those placs on the LIRR, if they would reopen the tracks. And, don't forget the scenic neighborhood of Bushwick, to which the LIRR also goes.
When in the last 60 years could you ride a passenger train on the Bay Ridge Division except on a rare excursion?
What about Bushwick? That's not what he meant. The tracks are still there.
In my younger days when I still lived with my parents in the Sheepshead Bay area of Brooklyn, I freqently, when I had the time, instead of going directly via the Brighton Line (to wherever I was going), I would go by way of Coney Island and one of the other lines.
-- Ed Sachs
One of my favorite scenic routes here in Chicago is taking the Metra Haeritage Corridor route down to Joliet, and the Rock Island District train back into the city.
The HC is much more rural and scenic than most of the other suburban commuter lines, and goes alongside a large number of mainline freight railroads... Great for railfans.
The wait for the Rock Island train at Joliet is only about half an hour, and in my experience there have usually been 2-3 large freight trains that pass through the station during that period.
On the subway, during my most recent trip to NYC I took the C from 72nd to West 4th, the F all the way out to Coney Island, The D to Broadway / LaFayette, the 6 to Grand Central, the 7 to Times Square, and then the 2 back up to 72nd. All this was pretty late at night, and I found it to be an incredibly fascinating look at the city... I especially enjoyed looking out the window on the Culver Line, watching the abandoned express tracks rise up to meet the locals, and then sink back down again to parts unknown, as well as the sheer rawness of that Smith / 9th Street station late in the evening. Almost had sort of a melancholy "Blade Runner" feel to it.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
A Great Ride in So. Calif is the ride on Amtrack. I used to get on the Morning train in Chatsworth, thru to LA Union Terminal, where the train headed in, and backed out (or visa versa) past the old Espee Taylor Yards, Amtrack Shops, etc. down to the coast and along the coast to San Diego. Then transfer to the Trolley to the Border.
10/04/99
Well Paul (Matus),that reminds me after I graduated high school in 1970,I took a job in Manhattan on West 54th St. I would get on a (D) train at Newkirk Avenue for the ride to 7th Ave and 53rd St. After a while , I got sick of standing all the way to work. I left for work a half an hour earlier but took a (D) train BACK to brighton Beach. Since seating was plentiful I secured my seat for my ride to work to Brighton and back to Manhattan. If they were R1-9's , I always took the cross seat. Now that to me was the scenic route !
Bill Newkirk
Ok, I'm going to be as objective as I can about this incident as not to accuse anyone but I did witness it.
Tonight I boarded an R train at Whitehall Street at approx 7:07pm. I got on the very first car of this train (an R-32, by the way because it affects the story). Inside the car were only 3 young black men. I sat down and one of them asked me to sing. I said "why?" He said that he and his friends were just talking and one of them was singing. The TO had the door to the cab open the whole time (I guess this wouldn't really have happened on an R46) and told them they were being loud and disruptive, in a very accusing way. They told me that just because of their skin color, they were getting in trouble just for blowing off steam from work, all day people accusing them because of their skin color. At every stop, the TO would get out of the cab and stare at them. At Cortland street, his friend gets up and says "goodbye" the the TO. They got out of the train and wished me (polietly) a good night. Immediately, the TO radios control (and the police) to pickup 3 black men leaving Cortland St.
This made me very mad, they didn't do anything but be a little loud, like most folks on a Friday night after work. As the ride continued I made up my mind to say something to the TO. As we stopped at 42nd Street, I got up and said:
"You know, there was no need to call control on my friends back there"
TO: "Your friends?"
Me: "They were just blowing off steam from work."
TO: "They were distracting me and if someone got hurt, I would go to jail.
TO: "You should be ashamed of yourself for being 'their friends'. (His tone was obviously, how could you possibly be friends with "them".
As he closed the door with his tuna breath-missing teeth-ugly face I said "Perpetuating racism is a bad thing" I know I could have said something more eloquent but I was really angry and riled up.
I could tell he was angry because he drove SOOO fast to 49th st. I got off the train to walk home.
I'm still disturbed. If anyone cares, it was an R32 'R' arrived whitehall 7:07 lead car #3495.
--Peter
HERE IN LOS ANGELES THIS SAME STORY HAPPENS !!
ONE TRAIN OPERATOR STOPPED THE RED LINE TO TELL ME
I AM A BLACK MAN IN MY 50'S TO TELL ME THAT BY LOOKING THRU THE FRONT WINDOW OF THE TRAIN
( RAILFANING ) I WAS BLOCKING THE TRAIN OPERATIONS ????
THIS MEAN UGLY WHITE MALE OPERATOR WOULDNT EVEN LET ME
LOOK THRU THE FRONT WINDOW OF THE SUBWAY TO NOWHERE
CAR !!!!!!!
THANK YOU salaamallah@yahoo.com
On the LIRR, a lot of engineers get antsy if you look out the front window, although you are perfectly entitled to do so. (I've checked on this).
I have been told (not asked) more than once to get away from there.
Some engineers even prop their doors open to keep people from standing at front window, but this is a service violation.
I don't know what explanation there might be in LA (other than racism). On the LIRR I think it stems sometimes from a fear of having their cab doors obstructed.
I've never had a subway operator complain about my standing at the front window, but I've often had anything from dirty looks to angry words for watching them operate the train.
Regardless of race.
Hell, if they ask me to move back, I stand back - and stare at them. They hate being watched.
One even said to me "I don't need you watching me do my job"
Needless to say, they get all bent - but what CAN they do?
Close the door.
FWIW, I've only been asked not to watch out the front one time on Metro-North.
There could be some reason in LA. Sometimes rules and regulations governing rapid transit lines can be radically different from others. In New York it is not an obstruction to view outside the front door (aka railfan window), except in emergency situations. It could very well be that in LA blocking the front door/window is prohibited (or at least detered) for those reasons.
I would really be surprised if you were singled out just because of race, although it can't be ruled out.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the only reason in L.A. is that LACMTA (and predecessor SCRTD) run things so militaristically that everyone's paranoid. All the bus drivers seem to have an attitude problem, and the rail transit operators, who are all promoted bus drivers, have an even worse, stuck-up attitude. They all act like a bunch of know-it-alls, and don't have any customer-service orientation in Los Angeles. It has been this way for the 30 years that I have lived in the Los Angeles area.
At least up in San Francisco, they don't display any attitudes -- they just act like a bunch of deaf mutes. I've never heard a driver up there ever mutter a single word (much less announce stops....)
Yeh, but the Gripmen and Conductors on the Cable Cars are great. I looking forward to my 16 hours there this Wednesday, on the way to the Midwest for a wedding. t has been 6 1/2 years, and I intend to ride Bart, the Cable Cars, and the F Line. Especially the Muni, all day for 6 bucks. Also my new call letters. The other was too long
Are you an amateur radio operator? I'm N2MMM
I guess the only legal way to railfan is to find a car that has a passenger front seat that looks directly out the front window. SEPTA's M-4's are beautiful for that ! You can have a good view even from the 2nd or 3rd seat. Who else has railfan seats, you guys mentioned New York's R-40 slants, etc?
Chuck Greene
The PATH trains (I cant remember which model) have a window on the left side of the front of the train. Even though the seat faces sideways, just look forwards and it is a great railfan window.
Los Angeles Red Line cars also have such a seat on the right side. The train operator is on the left, in a full-width cab, but there are complete window sets all the way across that cab.
Baltimore's Metro subway cars have a forward-facing window seat, right side of the train (TO sits on the left), looking thru the full-width cab. Both windows are large, and the block number sign creates a very minor obstruction. The view is especially impressive on the stretch between Old Court Road and Owings Mills, as the line goes up the median of I-795 thru Greenspring Valley.
The 2200, 2400 and 2600 Series cars in Chicago *used* to have great railfan seats, but this is changing as the operator cabs are being extended the full width of the train for OPTO.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Denver's LRVs have full-width cabs, but the cab doors have windows which allow you to see what's ahead. The operators don't mind if you watch. There is an intercom which allows you to speak to the operator if needed, but he/she isn't allowed to do so while the train is moving.
PATCO trains in Philly and New Jersey gives you a great railfan view. You sit right next to the operator infront of a bullet proof pircure window. A friend was sitting there when the window impacted with a brick at 60mph. Needless to say the window stood its ground.
[On the LIRR, a lot of engineers get antsy if you look out the front window, although you are perfectly entitled to do so. (I've checked on this).
I have been told (not asked) more than once to get away from there.
Some engineers even prop their doors open to keep people from standing at front window, but this is a service violation.
I don't know what explanation there might be in LA (other than racism). On the LIRR I think it stems sometimes from a fear of having their cab doors obstructed.]
I've never had any problems looking out the front windows on Metro North or the LIRR - and I've done it plenty of times on both. I'm referring to interference from the train crew. Twice on the LIRR, I've had passengers rather rudely try to push past me, thinking I was blocking their passage to the next car. It was quite satisfying to say "This is the last car." Once at Penn Station, just a couple of weeks ago, the idiot passenger said, quite loudly, "Oh [bowel movement]!" when he realized what was going on. Several people sitting nearby began to laugh. Needless to say, he quickly moved to the next car to the rear.
Paul: When I was in New York, the motormen were paragons of courtesy and friendship. They seemed amused to have a guy in his 50's look out the front window like a kid. I struck up many conversations with those I rode with. Black or white, race meant nothing. They were allies and comrades who were engaged in things we all loved. That's why the jerk that harrassed Salaam irritates the hell out of me. I'm a Californian, too, and railfaning should be encouraged, not the other way around.
Hey I agree with you Fred. Suprise
CAB DOORS
Trian Operators must keep the cab doors closed unless the cab is too hot or too cold, in which case they may kept slightly open, not more than four (4) inches, by use of an authorized "cab door latch" affixed in the vicinity of the cab door lock.
Did that com in to being after the original Taking of Pelham 123?
Good luck to all the Q Line Motormen and T/Os!
I wish the LIRR would have such a rule so one wouldn't feel like they are imposing when trying to watch out of the railfan window.
Salaam Allah: I'm a white guy and listen carefully. Find out who that jackass was and report his sorry ass to the authorities. A white racist is an embarrassment to humanity but especially so to a caucasian because it makes all of us look bad. He was a jerk and should not be allowed to get away with such conduct.
While calling the cops may have been a little to harsh, disrupting the TO is dangerous. I'd have to be there to see if it warranted being labeled a "distraction".
I have a similar story, happening about a year ago:
On a northbound B train at Bay Parkway, 2 young white women were trying to run from one car to the other. One didn't quite make it and put her foot in the doorway. The black conductor, who was wearing a NOI "Million Youth March" button on his uniform, went ballistic. He refused to open the door, even after the women said she wouldn't get back on the train. She was crying in pain because the conductor refused to open the door to release her foot, and she was losing circulation in her foot. He actually radioed for the police. 5 minutes later a cop comes to the platform and immediatley orders the conductor to release the woman. (BTW, the cop was black) The conductor was ranting about "this stupid immigrant bitch" (she was Russian) and then released the woman. The cop did lecture both females about the dangers and illegality of jamming the doors open, but to me watching the whole thing it seemed that the conductor would have never called the cops had a black woman done the same thing.
I can tell of an incident which has a proven precedent.
One day about 6 years ago, I rode the El home from school
downtown as I did every day at the time. I usually
disembark at 63rd Street, but as I was a new El rider and
wanted to explore a bit, I went to Millbourne station,
which was my first mistake.
As I went down the stairs to the commuter parking lot
adjacent to the station, I noticed a Millbourne police car
coming at me from Cobbs Creek Park. As I walked down the
driveway towards Market Street the car stopped and an
officer stepped out. He said to me "So where are the rest
of your friends?" Having absolutely no clue what he was
talking about, I said "What do you mean?" He said "Don't
get funny", then proceeded to grab me and put me in the
back of his squad car. I asked him what was going on but
he did not respond.
He drove down the driveway to 63rd Street station where
several other officers were waiting by the stairs. He got
out and talked with them for a few minutes and got back in
the car and drove to the 69th Street shopping area. I
asked him there and on the way to 69th Street what was
happening and why did he pick me up, but once again he
said nothing.
He stopped in front of a Foot Locker about 3 blocks south
of 69th Street Terminal, pulled me out of the car and took
me in front of who I can only assume to be the store
manager. The officer said "Is he one of them?". After a
few seconds, the manager said "I don't think so. No, he's
not." With that, he put me back in the car, asked me where
I lived and drove me home. On the way, he finnaly
explained that the Foot Locker had been robbed by
"teenagers with backpacks" and said they all high-tailed
it for the El. He stopped in front of my house let me out
and drove off.
First, being 10 years old and somewhere in the
neighborhood of 5'4" tall, how I could've been mistaken
for a teenager astounds me. And though yes, I did have on
a backpack, I tried to explain to him that I was coming
home from school.
Next, the fact that he wouldn't answer any of my
questions and drove me from place to place upset me.
I of course had to deal with the embarassment of coming
home in the back of a police car.
Once I finally sat down and thought about it, I figured
they had a reason to assume it was me but gave me no
chance to call home or didn't answer a question angered
me.
I have also learned that this isn't the firt time
something ike this has happened. My mother and brother can
tell of stories of harrassment from the Millbourne Police.
While I don't consider my incident as much "harassment" as
embarassment, one shouldn't ave to wory f the police are
going to be harrassing them whenever you're their town.
I'd call mine a transit-related mishap. I really should
have gotten off at 63rd Street.
Throughout my life I've run into discrimination, not as blatant as that which you have experienced but disturbing nonetheless. I'm a middle-aged Jew who looks the stereotype - long beard, thick glasses, thick waist - and I tend to ignore people who make cutting remarks. I was laid off by a major international corporation several years ago because of my religion (I refused to attend "mandatory" meetings scheduled on Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur), and decided that it wasn't worth fighting - me against a huge corporation. After all, did I really want to work for a company whose middle management (I was entry-level management) felt that way, and who would certainly stymie my career? Fortunately, I now work for another large corporation where I'm still a minority - simply because as a native speaker of English I'm in a distinct minority at the office. The cultural milieu is wonderful!
When life gives you lemons, make lemonade.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would have sued the Mumsers anyway, just to scare the piss out of them
Since the kid was a minor under 13 his parents HAD to be called as soon as he was picked up as a suspected perp. So laws were broken, if the story he tells happened the way he says it did.
This was obviously not NY so I don't know the laws wherever it happened but if it was NY absolutely NO laws were broken. The cops did everything right except maybe they could have explained to him the reasons right away. They cannot question the juvenile without his parents present but they certainly can have an immediate show-up with the complainant.
It happened in Millbourne, PA. Literally a stone's throw from my house just across the city line.
Millbournes attitude toward blacks, and maybe anybody who was not born there, but especially those who look different, is pretty well known. Sad little place, really.
Are you sure? Doesn't parental permission have to be obtained by the police before any type of questioning/recognition action is to take place. I remember a similar situation here in NYC a few years ago when man young men were brought in for use in lineups and their parents were not notified.
We are talking about 2 different things here. The case you are referring to involved innocent juveniles being used to fill up a lineup. To have a lineup you must have the suspect plus 5 fillups that are roughly the same height, weight, gender, complexion and age. They are usually paid $5 and very often detectives get them from homeless shelters. In that case in Suffolk Cty the detectives asked for volunteers at a high school and their parents flipped out. However Steve's case was a different story. He was picked up and brought to the complainant for an eye-witness showup, not a lineup. You don't need permission for that-if you did it would be almost impossible to arrest a juvenile. The parent is rarely there at the time and even if they were, all a parent had to do to keep their child from being arrested is to not give permission. Many cases are by eyewitness identification alone.
I might add that in NYS you can only do a showup within 1 hour after the crime. (absent unusual extenuating circumstances) After an hour you must do a formal lineup.
Several months ago I was stopped and detained by the Suffolk County Police. Several hours earlier, a black child was the victim of a hit-and-run in Amityville. I was in Brentwood, some 20 miles away. I was stopped because my car (although it had no damage) vaguely resembled the car believed to be responsible for the incident. I was held against my car on Wicks road for several minutes, embarrassed by the speculative gapes from passing motorists. I was pulled over because I was white, driving a grey car. Does that make the police racist. Not at all - they were just doing their job. By the way, they did not cut me any slack because I was white. I find that if you are non-confrontational with police you're treated the same way and if you aren't, at least you'll be alive to file a complaint.
Several months ago I was stopped and detained by the Suffolk County Police. Several hours earlier, a black child was the victim of a hit-and-run in Amityville. I was in Brentwood, some 20 miles away. I was stopped because my car (although it had no damage) vaguely resembled the car
believed to be responsible for the incident.
This kind of police behavior is generally the result of the electorate selecting fascists to hold government office.
.
.
P.S. I'm not soft on crime. Two convictions should result in an automatic life sentance with no parole/probation. However, the time to brutalize the guilty begins after conviction, not before. There is a big difference between justice and police intimidation.
However, my point was: I maintained my cool and so did the police...
What you've described is a cop being a complete jerk, not racism. Even my lilly white self has had to deal with cops who love the powertrip the badge gives them.
The one thing that puzzles me in the interaction of your story is that several folks on the forum are saying "Well, that's Millbourne for you."
But if you were hauled off because of an incident at 69th Street, that would've been in the jurisdiction of Upper Darby Police, no? And is 63rd St. station house you're referring to in Millbourne or Philadelphia?
I'm just curious because this strikes me as unusual coordination between up to three different police departments, especially for what seems like a relatively minor heist at a shoe store.
Up at City Line Avenue, the shopping centers there have an ongoing crank about thieves who swipe stuff, then flee across into Philadelphia. It isn't that Phila. police don't respond, they do ... but by the time it all gets coordinated, the perps are long gone.
If it makes you feel better, I've been stopped a number of times by police, walking and driving, for different things. If it was anything more than a simple traffic stop, it seems to have been SOP not to explain the reason until I've been checked out.
What the Conductor did in this situation is improper operation, as for calling it racist isn't warranted.
When I hear a black man call 2 Russian women "immigrants", while he's wearing a Nation of Islam Million Youth March button, you're darn right i'm justified to call what I witnessed racist. If a white conductor was wearing a KKK button and he did the same thing to a black women there wouldn't be any debate over what it is i saw.
Equating a peaceful march with an organization that spouts the outright killing of blacks and Jews isn't fair game in my book.
What's wrong with calling Russian women immigrants -- that's what they are (as a matter of fact that's what we all are in one way or another), particularly if their accents were heavy.
Doug aka BMTman
A peaceful march? The Million Youth March (especially last year's) was far from peaceful, with Khalid Muhammed (sp?) screaming about killing police officers and Jews and calling the white man the devil. The same sort of hate speeches took place this year, but at least the rally ended without incident (in that sense I guess it was peaceful).
Calling somebody an immigrant in a certain sense can be considered derogatory and degrading, especially if used like "stupid immigrant bitch" after the conductor refused to re-open the doors while her foot was stuck.
[[peaceful march? The Million Youth March (especially last year's) was far from peaceful, with
Khalid Muhammed (sp?) screaming about killing police officers and Jews and calling the white man
the devil. The same sort of hate speeches took place this year, but at least the rally ended without
incident (in that sense I guess it was peaceful).]]
Calling the white man a devil. Its fredom of speech. Nothing wrong with that. Visit www.projectusa.com Their site is full of anti-immagration stuff. Bashing immagrants for all of the countries problems. If your a white person you many not know what they went through. Cops pull you over on the NJT for no reason? Cops don't suspect you of doing something wrong.
Freedom of speech, eh? It's perfectly fine for a maniac black seperatist (who was dismissed from the Nation of Islam by Louis Farrakan for being too extreme, by the way) to stand on a podium on a street closed off to traffic in front of a group of people and scream into a mircophone with speakers more than a block away, and accuse the white man of being the devil.
Yet, when a NJ State Trooper brass made a remark along the lines that blacks and Hispanics were more likely to be involved in drug traffiking than whites, he was given the pink slip.
I am not racist. And I don't think there's any reason for anybody to be racist.
Now -- can we get back to talking about trains and buses?
A NJ State Trooper works for a governing body (ie the state = the people), so he is accountable for his actions. Kalid Muhammed doesn't speak/or work for anyone, but whether you like it or not his retoric are covered by the first amendment.
Just as despicable organizations such as the American Nazi Party or the Ku Klux Klan are covered by the first amendment to say what they want in public, Kalid Muhammed also has the right to say whatever he wants. IF words turn into ACTIONS then the government can take a stand against these rabble rousers.
Doug aka BMTman
Well this freedom of speech has gone too far. It seems lately I hear more immigrant bashing and racist hate than ever. And there are more hate crimes too. Someone in Queens who's a prominent Republican even wants the Chinese signs in Flushing to come down, claiming that they are "illegal" and must be in english.
When somebody's freedom is intended to hurt another, such as what project USA says, it should be banned because it puts social freedom at risk.
When are we ever going to realize that we don't have much social freedom in this country, and disband hate filled organizations and sweatshop operators! In most other developed countries, hate is not allowed. Thanks to lax movement against those who ruin the life of many, we have scratched up subway cars, the scratchiti on the front windows (especially the redbirds) is so bad you can't see out clearly.
The brand new 6200 buses Stengal got are already scratched!
Go to Hong Kong, Singapore, Paris,or Taiwan and see how much cleaner their subways are.
There's a balance between social freedom and individual freedom, and the United States hasn't found it.
John: Cut the crap. Racism is racism and it doesn't matter a hoot who says what. Derogatory language directed at someone of a different color or race or nationality is disgusting and must be combatted. There is no excuse or rationality for it. As for those jerkoff NJ cops who perpetrated those stops, the machinery of the law can take care of them. This is not 1950; its;s almost 2000 and there has been a lot of waking up that's taken place. No time to go backwards because of hate or revenge. To wit: If Colon Powell had decided to run for President in 1996, you think he would have lost? Not a chance. He's be in the WH today and most white people would be rejoicing.
Uh, Fred, it's COLIN Powell. Not that your reference doesn't sound all that bad...
The Nation of Islam is no diferent from the white-seperatist Christian Identity Church or the Klan. They're hateful, evil organizations which cannot be allowed to be legitimized by the American people. We've already seen what can happen when the Klan has gained "respectability". Even worse, we've all seen what happens when any organization who esposes racial hatred gains power. 6 million Jews paid for it.
along with Catholics, Poles, Slavs, Russians 20 Million of them
Don't forget the hundreds of thousands of American soldiers. (And people still buy VW's)
There is a difference. The Nation of Islam never espoused the out-right death of another race or culture. The same cannot be said for Nazi or the Klan. Millions of Jews (and others) were slaughtered by the members of the Third Reich. And American Blacks were lynched or burned at the stake merely for the color of their skin by crazed evil-hearted whites who were memeber of the KKK.
So I just want to set the record straight -- I have yet to find a member of the Nation of Islam with blood on their hands from the slaughter of another race (Maybe the blood of Malcolm X MIGHT be found on the hands of Louis Farrakan, but that's another matter and wouldn't apply to this post).
Doug aka BMTman
How about them yelling "Kill the Jew"
When and where???
It happened during the demonstrations in the wake of that child being killed in Crown Heights. A mob of blacks attacked Jewish student Yankel Rosenbaum; several in the crowd chanted "Kill the Jew!".
First, I should say that I'm a 40-year-old black man. I was sickened by the attack on Rosenbaum, who was an innocent caught in the wrong place. However, there is no evidence whatsoever that the Nation of Islam was involved or that any NOI members were among the crowd.
Speaking of the NOI, please remember that Farrakhan ordered Khalid Muhammad to leave the group after he made some especially inflammatory remarks.
NOW...can we get back to talking about subways?
If that statement was yelled, prove to me when the actual action was carried out.
It's been said many times, by many people. If you want to know when and where the advice was listened to, read a little history.
For example, it was said not too long ago on 125th Street, just before a store was burned down. It seems that some people who live in that area think that Jews don't belong there.
Even if no one had actually followed the suggestion, do you think it's OK to preach racism until some one acts on your preaching?
You have no problem with this jerk's behavior? He was annoyed with her for holding up the train. His response? He holds the train some more and assaults the passenger. AP was right: he's not racist, he's a xenophobe. Is that better than being a racist?
I keep seeing you state that the conductor had a "Nation of Islam Million Youth March" badge and calling the two women "immigrants" makes them a racist.
Well first of all that badge had nothing to do with him being a racist. It was his action, the fact that he referred to them as "stupid immigrant bitches" that made him a racist.
Furthermore, to try to equate the Nation of Islam with the Klu Klux Klan shows me that you don't have the slightest clue what the Nation of Islam is about. I also find that comparison very offensive. I'm sure that I am not the only one who feels this way in this discussion, but if it turns out that I am, then so be it.
The racist rhetoric that both organizations spout is much the same. As a Jew who lived in the rural South for many years (I still maintain a home there) I have been subjected to violence aimed at me by the local KKK chapter because of my religion. I've also heard Farrakhan and others call for the eradication of Jews from this planet, regretting that Hitler didn't succeed in wiping us out. From my perspective, there isn't much difference.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Farrakhan tends to forget if the Nazis won, after the Jews would have been all the blacks in this country would have been killed
I definitely agree with you on that. If he did make that statement, then he should have done his homework first.
Tell me when the Nation of Islam burned a cross on your lawn, or the lawns of anyone else know? Tell me when you heard of anybody from the Nation of Islam burning someone alive or hanging innocent people.
These are just some of the things that the KKK have done.
Quite frankly, I don't know of the NOI performing any of these acts, so as far as I am concerned, I honestly see a very big difference between the two groups.
The Nation of Islam never burnt a cross on my lawn. Nor, I suspect, has the KKK burnt a cross on your lawn. Both organizations, however, because of their reprehensible rhetoric, qualify as extreme and racist. That's not the issue here. The issue was and still is, someone, with less than sufficient evidence, accused another person of being a racist. I suggest that since he (the original poster) has long since tucked his furry little tail between his legs and has headed for cover, unless someone has something new to add, let's drop the side arguments about which group is less racist or more racist and get back on topic.
No, the KKK didn't burn a cross on my lawn, but unfortunately, that's not the case for thousands of others whose lawn they have burned a cross on and I still there is a grave difference between the two organizations.
But I will agree with you, this is way off the subject of what we should be talking about, trains. So I ready to get back to that discussion.
I've mostly stayed out of this thread, but since we're doing "last comments":
Every time Khalid Muhammed opens his mouth, he burns a cross on my lawn.
Of should I say, "shatters crystal." Not all crosses are made of wood, nor do all lawns have grass.
Whatever.
He was a black racist and just as big a jerk as the LA guy who gave Salaam a hard time. Unfortunately, all races seem to have their dorks.
Did you ever think that this captive audience member just didn't want to hear the screech? Why make an issue out of nothing really important?
Who appointed you to be the "Public Avenger"? How do you know that they were 'only singing'? How do you know that they were not deliberately trying to be obnoxious? How do you know that they were not interferring with the operator's ability to hear the radio?
Let me tell you, sometimes the blare from the headphones of a CD player can be annoying to me, riding a train, going home. Why should I or any other customer have to be subject to someone elses obnoxious behavior? Finally - what makes you think it was racial? Because the youths were black and the train operator wasn't? Unless the operator let white youths sing while stopping the blacks, you haven't anything but your own stupidity to base that remark on. My advice to you - give a dollar to the ACLU and get a life.
Slow down there... I wasn't trying to start a fight just relate an incident that I witnessed. I only tried to become "Public Avenger" as you say, because I felt it was totally unnecessary to call the police.
While I was in the train for two stops, they were not being disruptive after the TO asked them to quite down. They were only complaining about the TO's apparent racism towards them (which he could overhear). I was only a by stander.
Basically, the only reason I said anything to the TO is because they were they got off the train peacefully, THEN he called the cops. That's what made me really angry. Also he was EXTREMELY rude to me. I didn't go up to him and yell, I simply said "I felt it was unnecessary to call control"
It was the opinion of the three men that the TO was racist towards them. They told me they get this kind of thing all day...
Did it ever occur to you that they were mistaken? Perhaps they were jerks who pissed others off by their behavior, not skin color.
You mean motorman not train operator.
Peter,
You were there and I (and everyone else here) know that you could've been mistaken about to T/O being racist. But the point is that you being a witness - you're definitely entitled to your opinion. Re: the T/O: If it looks like a snake, acts like a snake - then it's likely to be a snake. If the T/O was distracted then he should've spoken to the guys in a polite manner, after all - he is in a customer service role. If that doesn't work - then fine call the police. Racism is bad enough, but what gets to me even more is that some people act as if it's a thing of the past and that the playing field is level. It's clearly not the case - so stick to your guns and call it as you see it.
Wayne
Uh-Uh, No Sale my friend. You can't excuse it that easy. Let's see now - You get on a train. Three black youths come running up to you and tell you that they were doing nothing wrong but the train operator is picking on them because they were black. You believe them and accuse the white train operator (with Tuna breath) of being a racist. Then he gets annoyed with you and you wonder why.
I'm trying hard not to think that you are a total moron but I'm losing the battle. Perhaps this is one of those incidents where you just had to be there but I don't see it. You make a snap judgement with far too little information. It is far too easy for people like you to paint someone as a racist these days. We see it everywhere:
* If a teacher fails a black student - she must be a racist.
* If a cop pulls over a speeder who happens to be black - he's a racist.
* If a white supervisor disciplines a black employee, he too is a racist.
Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson have made a career of doing just what you are doing. They destroyed Steven Pagonis's career and marriage by doing just that. We can assume anything we want but suppose that these 3 were acting obnoxious and preventing the train Operator from doing his job,or just harassing passengers ala Bernard Goetz. We don't know but, then, neither do you. By the way, we know the White Train Operator had tuna Breath. What about the three gentlemen that befriended you. What sort of breath did they have?
Uh-Uh, No Sale my friend. You can't excuse it that easy. Let's see now - You get on a train. Three black youths come running up to you and tell you that they were doing nothing wrong but the train operator is picking on them because they were black. You believe them and accuse the white train operator (with Tuna breath) of being a racist. Then he gets annoyed with you and you wonder why.]
Another thing that seems rather dubious about the story is why the three youths just didn't move to the next car, if the TO really was bothering them. After all, it was an R-32.
[I'm trying hard not to think that you are a total moron but I'm losing
the battle.]
Steve, let's try and keep this civil. No need to use such talk at this post. We're all railfans after all.
Doug aka BMTman
You are correct and two wrongs may not make a right. However, the original poster called a train operator a racist on far less evidence than I have that his mental capacity may be a tad lower than average. Besides, I didn't call him a moron, only stated that I was losing the battle resisting.....
Steve, I have to say your reaction seemed a lot more knee-jerk than Peter's. I've been in situations with black companions where it was ABUNDANTLY clear that they were being treated badly by a person in authority DUE TO THEIR SKIN COLOR. Perhaps you had to be there, but Peter's story - in it's entirety - inclines me to believe him.
Knee-jerk perhaps. But I must tell you, the charge of racist makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand straight up. It's too easily used these days by certain groups to mute the effectiveness of other groups. As for Peter's story, "in it's entirety" I read the same stuff you did.
1) He boarded a train after there was some sort of confrontation between the motorman and 3 young black men who, by their own admission, were somewhat boisterous.
2) Peter did not see the behavior nor did he see the motorman address the men.
3) He heard only what the young men had to say (their side of the story)
4) He obviously has a problem with motormen (he even criticized his 'tuna breath')
5) He attacks the motorman on behalf of the 3 young men, based only on their account of the story.
6) He considered it a racist act for the motorman to report the incident to Control Center.
BTW: If another customer did report the incident and the motorman did not, he'd possibly be in some 'labor relations' difficulties.
What am I missing here? We read the same account and you believe Peter and I don't. How do you get, from that account, that the motorman was a racist. Was it the tuna? Please tell me how I'd identify a racist from these few statements.
He didn't get the motorman side of the story.
Its like a judge making a decision after just hearing one side of the story. This is some politicians in NYC.
After giving this story a lot of thought, and taking all the responses into account, I agree with another poster (I believe it's Bill from Maspeth) that the T/O probably saved Peter Shifrin's posterior. I simply cannot believe that the three men were his "best friends" as they pretended. While of course we'll never know for sure, I have a strong suspicion that they would have turned on him if it weren't for the T/O's intervention. I don't know what Mr. Shifrin looks like, but not too many people are going to be able to hold their own in a three-on-one attack.
And am I the only person who thinks it odd that there were no other passengers in the head car except Mr. Shifrin and the three men? I'm fairly sure that was noted in the original posting. A logical explanation is that the "antics" from these three were enough to send other riders fleeing into the next car (remember it was an R32).
You got on at Whitehall, you don't know where they got on. Were they harassing other passengers as the train was traveling thru Brooklyn? I don't know and neither do you. You only rode with them for one stop. By virtue of that T/O saying something to them when they asked you to sing, that train operator was going to bat for YOU. He didn't have to. That is NOT HIS JOB and if he gets hurt in protecting you, he goes out on comp. with a thank you from nobody. Which means, among other things, there is a delay in him getting his salary. Sure, you felt BRAVE when they got off. When he called Control, what exactly did he tell them? I don't know and neither do you. When you got off the train and said what you did, you figuratively stabbed that T/O in the back. All of a sudden those guys were your friends? It was one stranger vs. three strangers. No matter what YOUR skin color is or THEIR skin color is, or the skin color of the T/O. Maybe that T/O saw fear on your face at the time. Was that train operator pissed off from the start and out to "get" someone because he was pissed over having an R32 rather than an R46? I don't know and neither do you. Those R guys love those 46's! But seriously, we get too hung up about race. As many of you know, I am a MOTORMAN. Rookies are T/O's! You have to earn the Motorman title! How would I have handled it? I don't get involved in disputes among passengers. My job is to move that train. I will not do what the transit police is supposed to do. All my responsibility is to call it in. I am not trained in physically subduing people if necessary, I do not wear a bullet-proof vest (but I have a safety vest!), and I do not carry a gun. I will not jeoparize MY safety and the responsibility I have a father and husband to my loved ones. I am the bread winner of my family. But experience teaches you this kind of thing. What would your reaction to the whole thing if everything was the same yet the T/O was black? Then all of a sudden the race card doesn't apply? I admit, the one thing I don't tolerate is smoking in my car. I will open the cab door and request for that cancer stick to be put out. Many time, I don't see the person who is smoking and frankly, I don't care! Since I am a white man, does this mean I am a racist if a black person is smoking?
Bill: I hope you like your job. If I hadn't moved to California when I was 14, I'm convinced that today I'd be a motorman, too.
Makes three of us, but my eyes were bad, so I would be a Motorman on the D/Q Mispronouncing Ave M, J, U, H 34th St etc
Maybe you would have even operated the Triplexes during their final days.
Not to take away from the situation that you encountered, but WHAT THE HECK DID THIS STORY HAVE TO DO WITH AN R-32????
I thought in the beginning you were going to mention some relevance? I am confused here....
Oh yeah, I felt that if it was an R46 (as the R usually is) there would have been more sound proofing and not as easy for the TO to keep opening the door into the car (as it seems easier and quicker on the R32.
Plus on the R-32s, you can move from car to car. On the R-46s, the storm doors are kept locked.
Interesting story, but remember that there might be things you don't know. It could be that the three men indeed were severely disruptive before you got on. I would caution against jumping to conclusions if you don't have all the facts.
One more thing - I find it difficult to imagine that any white transit worker could be racist, given the makeup of the TA's work force. He wouldn't have lasted a week.
Ture, I was not on the train before... but I was the only other person in the car for two stops. While I was in the car the men were nothing but polite to me and complaining about the TO reactions to them.
But when the TO said to me how "I could be friends with "them" ANd you really had to be there to hear how he said them...
I just felt it was REALLY unneccessary to call the police. Because after the TO asked them to quiet down, they did!
I know that the TO could hear _them_ talking to _me_ about how they felt he was being racist. Maybe that's why he got angry and called the cops.
It's also possible that there was agitation on both sides. Maybe when those guys first got on the train they were being loud, but otherwise keeping to themselves. Perhaps the motorman shot them a dirty look -- which can happen since he is trying to concentrate on his job.
Then by the time you got on, the three guys might have been trying to "mess" with the TO from their earlier confrontation with him, by being coy with you. I've seen this thing happen before. A bunch of black guys will "befriend" a neutral white guy (or couple) to "mess with the head" of a non-black that they dislike. It's a mind-game kind of thing that as I've said, I have seen before. I could be wrong about your particular case since I wasn't there, but it is only a theory on my part.
Doug aka BMTman
[I know that the TO could hear _them_ talking to _me_ about how they felt he was being racist. Maybe that's why he got angry and called the cops]
Well, that certainly would make most people angry. Accusing someone of being a racist is a very serious matter. Whether it was enough to provoke him to call the police is another story. I stand by what I said, that it's not really fair to come to a conclusion if you don't have all the facts.
This reminds me a bit of an incident which happened at the Brighton Beach D/Q station on Aug. 14, 1998, at about 9.30 am. For some reason, the Q stopped when it was about halfway out of the station; some of the cars were still on the platform. Two older Russian women had just missed that train (so did I), and they wanted the conductor to open the doors for them! A TA employee (I think it was another TO or conductor) tried to explain that the doors could not be safely opened for them. Right off the bat the women (who could barely speak English) accused the TA of "reverse racism". It saddened me to see how quickly these people learned to cry racism - it makes things hard for those who are victims of the real deal.
If the TO on that R train was so disturbed by his passengers' loud singing and talking, he should've closed the cab door. Unfortunately, if the cops picked up those three men they were in for a rough weekend.
Thought I'd take the opportunity to announce the birth of a new railfan today. My older daughter Amanda and her husband Larry are now the proud parents of another boy (their second son, my second grandchild), Andrew Joseph Lovecchio (a.k.a. Drew), at 8:36 AM Pacific time. He weighed in at 10 lbs. even, 21 3/4" long (tall?) and, like his brother Alex (2 1/2 years old) will be a dedicated railfan all his life. Both of his grandpas will see to that!
Until next time...
Drew's Zayda (a.k.a. Anon_e_mouse)
Congradulations!! May he live a long healthy life. Brian
MAZEL TOV!!!!
I'll second the Mazeltov. My nephew (and godson) celebrated his first birthday yesterday. His birth weight was 10 lb., 4 oz. My sister says she makes 'em big; my niece weighed in at 9 3/4 lbs when she was born. We'll see if my nephew goes for trains the way I do.
Congratulations to Amanda and her husband Larry on the birth of a new railfan Andrew a.k.a Drew. Also congratulations to the proud grandparents to see the he will be a railfan also.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
The world can never have too many railfans. Congratulations.
I second that emotion. Also, a big MAZEL TOV !
Chuck Greene
I third it. Make sure he becomes a Sea Beach fan, though.
Fred, I'll see to it that he rides the line next time I get him out east!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Mazel Tov, Anon-e! Another great reason for the Slant R-40s to live a long life too, so that he may have a low window to look through soon!
You're a Zaydeh (sic) now! Mazel tov to you and yours.
Wayne
MAZEL TOV !!!!!!!
Are we invited to the bris......We could take Amtrak out to CA...
Well, my daughter married a Catholic, so they're ignoring both faiths for the time being (almost - there is a mezzuzah on the door, but that's it). Wish there would be a bris, but no such luck.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another hearty Mazel Tov!
-- Ed Sachs
Mazel Tov, anon,
There's nothing better than a bright new light in the world!
Of course, let's not get TOO excited - he could grow up to be a roadgeek :-)
That's not too bad! I'm both!
Congratulations! We need more railfans, no matter how young they are :-)
MAZEL TOV!!!!!
Congradulations. All the best to mother,child and grandad.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What can I say, but to add my voice to the others?? MAZEL TOV!!!!
Congratulations! We're all very happy for you! We hope you will share many happy moments with your new grandson.
Wow! Big baby!! Mazel tov to you and your entire family on the arrival of your (and our) newest railfan, Drew!
I'm sure Grandpa will teach him well.
--Mark
Thanks, Mark - and thanks to everyone else who has welcomed him!
He's doing great - constantly hungry, of course. My wife's having a wonderful time out in Las Vegas with him and his brother - Bubbe duty! When she comes home next week I'll scan a pic and post a link to it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, the pics are finally on the web - take a peek at Anon_e_mouse's Home Page. Two of the most precious grandsons anyone could wish for (not to mention a rather sweet grandma too).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oy! Such naches!
Mazel tov from Chicago!
Whoa guys. Sorry I got caught up in the thread about the mayor. In my opinion it is becoming way too incindiary and is not transit relative. If you guys want to fight it out, I'll watch from here.
A-Men This is a Transit Web not a political one, unless it has something to do with transit
Yeah, even I got sucked in. I did the same thing in the New York Met newsgroup recently and veered WAY, WAY off topic. LOL. Bact to trains ...
Hey, how about those Mets? I'm going out for some humble pie...
I agree. As far as I'm concerned, arguing about the Mayor, or Hillary, or any other political figure, is OK in this forum IF it pertains to their position on transit-related topics. Otherwise, I think it should be discussed elsewhere.
I completely agree, also about cops, race, religion, creed, only if it effects what this web is for, discussions on rail/rapid transit. I f you want to debate someone please use a political chat or e mail that person directly
Howdy,
On Friday I'm flying to Portland, Or for a week and I got a great fare on American Airlines but the only thing is that i have to fly out of Mac Author airport in Islip, LI. I'm comming out of NJ via NY Penn Station. Can anyone tell me how far the train station in Islip is from the airport ,the best way (and fastest) to get from the train station to the airport, and a ruff estimate of how much a cab ride from the train station to the airport would be?? Any help would be appriciated,
Thanks in advance
AJ in Jersey
[On Friday I'm flying to Portland, Or for a week and I got a great fare on American Airlines but the only thing is that i have to fly out of Mac Author airport in Islip, LI. I'm comming out of NJ via NY
Penn Station. Can anyone tell me how far the train station in Islip is from the airport ,the best way (and fastest) to get from the train station to the airport, and a ruff estimate of how much a cab ride
from the train station to the airport would be??]
MacArthur's terminal is something like three to five miles from Ronkonkoma station. The airport's actually across the street from the station, but the terminal's around the other side. I'm not sure if there are any shuttle services up and running yet, but in any event there always are taxis available at Ronkonkoma. I really can't give an estimate on the cost.
Take LIRR from Penn to Ronkonkoma - runs 1x each hour at approx 0:14 each hour - approx 70 mins to Ronkonkoma. More service in PM peak hours - less service during AM reverse peak (leaving NY at 5:12 AM and 7:40 AM only due to single track east of Farmingdale).
Taxi costs about $8 from Ronkonkoma and takes 10 mind.
Originally there were plans to move the passenger terminal to the north side of the field so that there would be some sort of people mover to/from Ronkonkoma station. Thereby allowing Mac Arthur to be a reliever type airport for LaG and JFK. Like all other LIRR plans this went into the "dumper". Originally Congressman Bob Mrazek secured funding for electrification to Port Jeff. LIRR president (at that time) Bruce Mc Giver announced that the money was going to go to electrify to Ronkonkoma and as a "consolation prize", we of the Port Jeff branch would get dual-mode trains. They have just arrived (along with the loud horn problem) about TEN YEARS behind original projected delivery date. Typical how politicians can gum things up
I was at Islip MacArthur aiport on 9.28.1999 and saw a sign for shuttle service to the LIRR. Also, there is a rack of LIRR timetables and a long list of the prices each of eight cab companies charge to locations on LI. I was busy picking up arriving friends, so I may have missed other informative signs. The politician who puts his name on whatever the Town of Islip taxpayers pay for is, I believe, the guilty party. The airport terminal exit leads to Johnson Avenue and Islip. If it faced north, it would face the town line and the LIRR.
What's happening on Broadway? A friend says 1 service was irregular during the late night hours. Apparently, trains from South Ferry were operating to 96th St on the Brooklyn Bound Exp Track and you had to transfer across the downtown platform (South Ferry Bound Local Track) for a 242nd St bound 1, which ran exp to 137th St and Broadway. Anyone care to elaborate as to what the exact G.O. was for??
-Stef
I don't know what they're doing, but they looked like they were assembling quite a work team late Friday night. I had the railfan window on a 1 train from Van Cortlandt at about 11:40PM. We crawled behind a work train down from 168, passing some work trains on the uptown track as well. The train skipped 125, 116 and 110 to make up time -- all along the way it looked like they were getting ready for major work on the center track. After stopping at 103, they put us on the express track at 96th and announced the train would go express to 42nd. I had to switch to the next 1 (which was already arriving on the local track) to get to 86th.
Interesting. It just so happens there are two separate General Orders in effect. One GO makes the 1 a 30 minute service between 137th and 242nd Sts, while the other requires a change of trains at 96th St. The MTA site has a listing of Service Disruptions to come during the weeks ahead.
Regards,
Stef
I was out and about today with my oldest son with his $4.00 all day MetroCard. Was today a typical Sunday for G.O's? It seemed like an awful lot to me! The ones I came across: B Manhattan bound: over N line from Stillwell to 36, then local to DeKalb. N normal Manhattan bound, CI bound over the Brighton Exp. from DeKalb to Stillwell. R: shuttle only 36 to 95. So the only southbound service on Fourth Ave. from Pacific to 36 was the B running express. 1 service instead of 3! E: in both directions local thru Queens and rerouted to Whitehall. F: from Queens local and then over the G from Queens Plaza to Bergen, normal to Queens. So no Manhattan bound E/F service and only F going to Queens. 4 to Atlantic Ave., 2/3: Express Manhattn Bound to Atlantic. 4/5 express on local track uptown from 14 to Grand Central due to platform work at GC. 6 trains replaced by buses in the Bronx due to switch re-replacement at 177/Parkchester. I'm sure there were others! I recognise the need for structural work, but could so much at one time on so many lines actually adversely affect ridership in the short term?
What the heck were they thinking about Bill?!? Too many GOs happening at one time? Perhaps. The GOs were overlapping each other. I don't know if it's practical, having double GOs on one line and confusing (or inconveniencing) the passenegers that much more. One thing that I can't understand is what was happening on the B and the N. The N to CI was on the Brighton Line while the B was travelling on the N to 36th St, right?
The work in question, did it require any wrong railing, and can I safely assume that a major junction (36th St) was under construction?
While the news about the B was not surprising, there was no notice about the N anywhere.
-Stef
Perhaps F1 track between DeKalb and Pacific St. was being woked on which precipitated the N trains going to the Brighton exp.......on the Manhattan bound B, we saw work trains on the middle track around 18th Ave. laying track panels and another one around 50th or 55th doing whatever on the local track. We didn't notice any wrong-railing. We noticed this on our trip on the B toward Bay Pkwy. where we got off and stopped at the bagel shop to bring some home. We then took the B6 bus across Bay Pkwy to hook up with the Sea Beach line.
Hey Fred did you read about the General orders, Your Sea Beach finally made it to Prospect Park, 42 years too late, and on the last day of the season. I read they usually route the Brighton to the West End for repairs, but not the Sea Beach
That's why there was a R-40 on the Brighton Express track! Oh I see!
When you're a monopoly run by heartless bean counters, you can treat your customers like dirt and not care. I have been saying this for years. Now everybody wakes up that it's too late.
Sounds Like the Post Office, or the Cable Company, or the Phone Companies, etc
I just needed something to type so i can get the cookie back in my browser. I cleared the cache today.
What kind of car is 4506? I am assuming it is a R38, R40, or R42. Is it one of those or a diffeerent type?
4506 is a modified (straight front) R40.
We call #4506 and his brethren an R40M. Originally destined to have a slant front, a design change at the last minute caused it (and the others in the batch) to wear the straight, R42-style front end.
As delivered in 1969, this car wore #4306, and possibly also had a Brake Test number as well.
You can see its R40 roots at the "B" end doors, which have long windows, and also on the inside of both storm doors, which have the distinctive R40 cutouts.
The "A" end storm door windows are a little smaller and higher than the R42. Also the side corrugations are the same as those on the Slant R40.
Wayne
I was on a Queens-bound N train at 14th street Friday afternoon and the T/O and conductor were talking, then said the train would terminate at 57/7th due to a police action at Queensboro plaza. We proceeded to 34th then a red signal, they said City Hall radiod them, and then the conductor announced that the train was terminating at 42nd street, we switched to the express track then arrived at 42nd. Interesting to see all this from the railfan window (it was an R32), the signal was red and then turned yellow-green when City Hall told them to switch tracks. they said when we were at 23rd there were no N,7, or R trains to Queens. But when we got up to 42nd they said there was R and 7 service. They said it was a "police action". This all took place between 1 and 2pm Friday. Does anybody know what happened?
There was a threat of a bomb in the station at Queensboro Plaza.
N trains were turned back to Brooklyn at selected points.
No 7 train service between T.S. and Woodside.
Wonder what happened to any trains that were Queens bound in the tunnel? I assume they are turned around somehow.
R service was normal except for the Crush Loads in the middle of the day and the confusion of non english speaking pax at Lex Ave (59th St).
It took me longer to get back to work from a lunch date.
If a N made it past Lex Ave, it should have been diverted to Queens Plaza (underground R stop).
I heard on the radio this morning that the IRT #2 and 3 trains are going to be bypassing all stops from Atlantic to Franklin Aves.
Someone mentioned that it was just a coincidence that work on the local tracks of the New Lots/Flatbush Lines is occurring on the same weekend of the opening of the "Sensation" exhibit at the Brooklyn Museum of Art.
Others might surmise that the Mayor pulled strings at the MTA and got the trains deverted from their normal routes.
Food for thought...
Doug aka BMTman
Not True, Today was my last day on the No.2 Line and it about time they fix that skeliten Track between Grand Army and Bergen Street. They are finally pouring the concrete on the track.
Also only the Uptown trains are Express. Downtown No.2,3 Trains are stopping at Eastern Parkway.
They had that Uptown Local track uncovered since July. I got into many fights with Times Sqaure and E 241 St on why I was 5 Minutes late. I would tell them I Must do 10 Miles Per Hour or risk a derailment. Well i'm glad they are finally fixing the track. I was on time today at 241 St.
But you can't help but wonder the timing. But this G.O was planned 2 weeks ago.
Good BYE Broadway, Hello Pelham I'M coming home
I'm suprised there wasn't another G.O. with or without a supplement schedule which added a few minutes running time due to the skeletonized track. On the E line, we've had skeletonized track between Jamaica/VanWyck and Supthin (toward Jamaica) since June! A supplement schedule came out adding 2 minutes running time, with a few crews having their trip times adjusted along with an extra AM put in required. Southbound at Continental, they started tearing up that switch in the beginning of August with skeletonized track and they only put out a G.O. this week giving express trains 2 minutes extra running time and the local 1 extra minute running time. Draw your own conclusions!
If the work was scheduled weeks ago, then there is no reason to think Guiliani had anything to do with it.
People think what they want to think whether or not they know the facts. I would hope a G.O. could not be pulled by a political hat trick but in the case of the first million youth march, The 125 Street station on the A line was closed. Besides an express station, being the first ADA compliant link between the 6th and 8th Av routes from the Bronx end should have enough power in itself to keep it open for transfers at least but close it? You mean the TA can keep Grand Central open during a fire but must close a subway because the Virgin Mary did a poopoo? Pleeeeeeze.
Well, she did become famous giving birth in a manger, what is found in a manger, animals, what do animals do. The Artist is African, and instead of a camel, he had a elephant. BIG DEAL, doesn t Rudy go somewhere too?
I have tried to stay out of this but feel I must rerspond:
Firest, I am not of the Caholic Church but I am a fundamentalist Christian (Protestant to those of the Catholic Faith).
To me Mary is a woman who gave Birth to Jesus. I know the Catholic Church reveres her- and I understand that.
My comment is Christinas bashing in General . In Cussing, they alway use the Name of Jesus as a cuss word- Never do they sday Buddha D***, or Shinto D** or Confucious *** but they say G*** D***
I do not descend to that level, but do you think if I did a picture of a famous civil rights leader with manure for hair if I would be admired. I already know I'd be run out of town (rightfully so). WHy pick on the Christian Church. We are a free country and can liek or dislike anything.
The TA did run shuttle bus service. Please stop equating Transit with dictators.
As for the damning, anybody saying g-d damn, isn't necessarily insulting Jesus. G-d is a general term that refers to all those others you mentioned (except for Shinto and Confucius and often Buddha, I think you should have mentioned Allah).
With due respect. to me Jesus is special, God is special and has no last name! to me it is breaking one of the 10 Commandments given to us as Christians and Jews alike by a taking of God's Name in vain.
I could have easily added Allah or any other Divine Being or maybe some other famous people but did not want to flame this further.
We need to respect each other's beliefs- even if we disagree with their belief system.
We are a diverse country with people of many different cultures and belief systems. We were founded by a group of people who wanted to worship their Diving Being in their way and not have the state say how it should be done.
We do not have to embrace their belief but accept their right ot their beliefs and not condemn anyone for their belief system.
The Artist had the right to create that painting- yes. Should the artist have done so-- No, poor judgment. He should show respect to others by reconginzing that some might find it objectionable.
I am not attending that exhibit. The museum is shoeing poor judgment by deliberately holding an exhibition that will offend a large segment of the population in this country.
I work for Transit- I work with people of different belief systems. You dont have to accept their belief system to treat anyone with dignity and respect.
(Last comment on this.)
[The Artist had the right to create that painting- yes. Should the artist have done so-- No, poor judgment. He should show respect to others by reconginzing that some might find it objectionable. ]
Wrong. We cannot limit our artist's creative expressions by expecting them to judge whether the Majority would find their creation objectionable. Our country works because we allow our artists to express themselves no matter how ugly or mean their works turn out. It is up to the public to deside how they feel about the piece. If the public has a strong feeling about it, whether for or against, then the artist has done his job well.
Ok, that's all TRUE. But, you said that when a person says G-d d***, they automatically say it in reference to Jesus, when in actuality, all of those others believe that G-d Damn is in reference to their deity (i.e. a Buddhist who worships Buddha as god will consider G-d d*** to be the equivalent of Buddha d***).
***=amn
With the weather being as great as it was, I decided to take the trusty camera and head over to B'way/East New York stations of the Canarsie Line to take some shots of two projects in the works: (1) the re-installation of rail on track P1 at Atlantic Ave. and (2) the progress on the overhead walkway/waiting area at Bway/East New York.
At Atlantic, I found new track laid, but third rail still has to be added as well as the connections to the signal systems. I saw markings on the ties and rail indictating "Atlantic Ave." so the track sections were evidently pre-fabbed at Linden Shops and hauled during the week. (I saw a work train at Atlantic earlier in the week on the way home). Also, new steel support beams had been laid between Atlantic AVe. and B'way/East New York. A crew was up there priming and painting the structure, so I give the crew another two or three weeks and P1 should be back in use.
The new overhead walkway construction at B'way is going ahead after a bit of a delay. When it is completed railfans will be treated to a grand view of the structure much like the overhead walkway/waiting area at E. 105th Street gives a picturesque view of the tracks leading to Rockaway Parkway/Canarsie yard.
I will post another update as these projects move along.
Doug aka BMTman
They are also doing a major remodeling of the Braodway ENY IND station. I noticed brand new light fixtures near the front exit on the Rockaway/Lefferts bound platform the other day.
That overhead construction at B'way Jct.: I haven't seen it yet, but I would hope the fence would be high enough to prevent the vandals from throwing objects at passing trains or the platform down below. We don't want to see an employee injury, passenger injury or equipment damage.
I think they're putting a high fence up round it. That should be a spectacular view of everything all round, yard, stations, switches, The "JJ" flyover, the works. It'll be a great photo-op once it's done. Sad to see the Atlantic Avenue station getting all torn up like that. You'd think they'd leave at least four tracks there, in case they need to use it as a temporary terminal/turnaround/relay site.
As for Broadway-ENY, well, new lighting is going up all over the IND. They can do what they want just as long as they don't touch the wall tile; as hideous as that shade of blue is, it is unique.
Speaking of IND - tomorrow morning I go to Chambers Street-H&M/WTC to take pictures of Oculus, the Giant Eye. Should be worth "seeing" :o>
Wayne.
I think its sad to see it go too, its a relic of the old Fulton El. But that's because we are railfans!! Realistically though, its not practical to have 2 els on two different parallel streets, one for each direction of one line, especially if you have extra tracks on each. Its hard to believe they left it that way for 50 years.
Are they taking down the el over Van Sinderen or the one over Snediker?
I was under the impression that they are taking down Sneidiker.
Japan did not need the iron then either,
The Snediker side is the one to be demolished.
BTW, the work has yet to start. I believe the TA is waiting for the track crews to finish the installation of the new track on P1 before they go full steam ahead with the "major surgery" at Atlantic Ave.
The reason the el structure remained for 50 years w/o demolition is the fact that aside from blocking sunlight the structure wasn't doing anyone any harm. But now we have the MTA which realized that the unused steel at B'way/East New York and Atlantic Ave. amounts to untapped scrap $$$. And that's the bottom line.
Doug aka BMTman
There's more to it than that. For 50 years the Canarsie Line has had the same signal system. Now, NYCT is replacing the signals with a state-of-the-art Communications-Based Train Control (CBTC) system. That makes this the perfect time to consolidate structures between Sutter Avenue and Broadway Junction. Besides bringing some small amount of scrap money in (to the City of New York, which owns the subway, not to MTA/NYCT, which only runs it), it allows Manhattan-bound trains to operate at higher speeds since some curves are eliminated. This will become fully evident when CBTC is in place, since the R-143 cars now on order (mostly for the Canarsie Line) are designed to run with two propulsion curves: "hot" (like a standard train that's still field-shunted) and "cold" (like a standard train that has had the field shunting provision removed, which is what runs on the line now). "Hot" will be used where CBTC is present and functioning properly; "cold" will be used where it isn't. On-board systems on the trains will determine which to use.
David
[The reason the el structure remained for 50 years w/o demolition is the fact that aside from blocking sunlight the structure wasn't doing anyone any harm. But now we have the MTA which realized that the unused steel at B'way/East New York and Atlantic Ave. amounts to untapped scrap $$$. And that's the bottom line.]
Gee, if only a certain fleet of cars had that same two-curve feature...my, my.
A COUPLE of fleets, TBA. Some of those "A" boats are mighty pokey.
(But others are mighty peppy!)
Wayne
Quite true. And they're 75-footers for the most part. Need I say more?
I guess it would be too much to ask to have some urban archeologist photograph and catalog the Snediker Avenue structure as it comes down.
Though heavily rebuilt, it is the last piece of the original Fulton Street L (since the piece at Franklin Ave. was destroyed). It is supposed to contain ironwork from the 19th century, though noone knows for sure how much or which pieces.
After it's torn down (if anyone cares), we'll never know.
I was under the impression that the Sneideker Ave. el only dates back as far as 1906, the same year the rest of the current Canarsie line was built.
No, I don't have the date in front of me, but Snediker dates to the 1880s or '90s when the Fulton L was extended to City Line. It predates the current Broadway Jct. complex and even the unwieldy "Manhattan Jct." connection which was the first physical connection between the Brooklyn Elevated's Lexington Avenue Line and the Kings County's Fulton St. Line.
However, it was heavily rebuilt when the current complex was constructed. How heavily, even TA engineers are not supposed to know.
The Canarsie Line predates 1906, when the line was on the ground.
I know, I was referring to the date the current Canarsie el was built, which was in 1906. Anyway, it appears I am wrong.
Have the Feds Declare in a National Historical Landmark, and it will stand forever
While I hate to see transit history demolished, the station as it is today is an eyesore, and an operational nuisance. I'm just glad I got to see it in my lifetime.
The Snediker route is the original route of the Fulton/Canarsie line between Atlantic Ave. and near Sutter. It was a 2 track line serving both Canarsie and Fulton trains with junctions at grade at Manhattan Junction and near Pitkin. I beleive there was another station on the line called East New York before the line split at grade to branch to the Fulton line along Pitkin and the Canarsie line to Sutter and further South. The structure was constructed, I beleive in the style of the original Fulton line using lattice style construction which survived on the Pitkin branch to the end. The Snediker section as we know it today seems to be a complete rebuild when the Bway Junction -Atlantic complex was rebuilt in the early 20th century using solid steel plate girders. I beleive there is one picture ot the original 2 track Atlantic Ave. station the book, "The Brooklyn Elevated", by Greller and Watson.
How about the el on Van Sinderin, is that the same age. They seem to compliment each other.
The Snediker route is the original route of the Fulton/Canarsie line between Atlantic Ave. and near Sutter. It was a 2 track line serving both Canarsie and Fulton trains with junctions at grade at Manhattan Junction and near Pitkin. I beleive there was another station on the line called East New York before the line split at grade to branch to the Fulton line along Pitkin and the Canarsie line to Sutter and further South. The structure was constructed, I beleive in the style of the original Fulton line using lattice style construction which survived on the Pitkin branch to the end. The Snediker section as we know it today seems to be a complete rebuild when the Bway Junction -Atlantic complex was rebuilt in the early 20th century using solid steel plate girders. I believe there is one picture ot the original 2 track Atlantic Ave. station the book, "The Brooklyn Elevated", by Greller and Watson. I believe the Van Sindern route is about the same age as the rebuilt Snediker route and this elevated section was not present before the rebuild of the junction. The 2 sections may have been opened in stages, but I'm not 100% sure.
Brian, I think you're right about the Snediker side of the el. It looks to be about the same age as the Van Sinderin side of the structure -- both having been rebuilt under the Dual Contracts. Again, it would be hard to find out which one actually was completed and went into revenue service first.
Thanks for the great info.
Doug aka BMTman
The el on Snediker was rebuilt when the bigger structure on Van Sinderin was built.
[The reason the el structure remained for 50 years w/o demolition is the fact that aside from blocking sunlight the structure wasn't doing anyone any harm. But now we have the MTA which realized that the unused steel at B'way/East New York and Atlantic Ave. amounts to untapped scrap $$$. And that's the bottom line.]
Dunno what price scrap iron's fetching these days, but somehow I doubt it'll be sufficient to cover the demolition costs.
there probally thinking the long term benefits of not having to maintain 2 old el structres. they only have to maintain one old EL structure.
It's not a traditional walkway, it's more like a small building, with a roof four walls the whole nine yards (Just like the combo station booth and walkway at Broad Channel or at E. 105th St. on the L).
It could be a giant relay room ala what is on the old "el" structure at Bway-Myrtle. If this is so, then there would be no passenger access.
Ok I found out something very interesting. Remember the New swiches they put in North of Parkchester. Well they are being replaced now 1 year later. So here are the following Service Disruptions
WEEKDAYS
All No.6 Trains will make ALL STOPs No PELHAM EXPRESS for at least the next 2 weeks. Every thing will be on the Local tracks.
WEEKENDS
NO No.6 Service from Hunts Point Ave to Pelham Bay Park.
There will be a Local or Express SHUTTLE Bus
Another Money Thrown Away scandal in which nobody is accountable for the original shoddy work. Now passengers and operating employees alike have to be inconvenienced again. Maybe they'll scrap those wheel detectors.
Hi,Does anyone have a Complete listing
Thanks
Steve
A defective switch? Is that possible? What I should be asking is what Transit hopes to accomplish by replacing those switches, other than to speed up movement through the bottle neck (even movement of those wheel detectors to a different location). #8 Train, where are you?
-Stef
Was on the 5 train yesterday from Brooklyn Bridge to GCT, had a train of redbirds but we had all red and yellow signals ahead of us, we were going no more than 15mph the whole way, our average speed was about 10mph, and the several local 6 trains past us. I could barely see any train ahead of us, those signals are a pain! We could've gone faster if it weren't for all the signals, since they put those stupid wheel detectors in the trains on the Lex express have been much slower. Wheel detectors are those things marked "WD", right?
You can't have frequent rush hour service with trains being kept so far apart.
The wheel detector is only activated for a diverging route, which the Lex Expresses had to take since there was work on the Northbound Express Track at GCT. The Wheel Detector might be a practical safety feature, just so T/O's don't go speeding over the switch and having a potential accident. I can't fault the people in Transit for at least trying to make the system safer.
-Stef
Which 8 Train? Both were els and have been gone for years
I think thats what he meant!!!
Probably not. Rollsigns on the R-62 fleet contain a green 8. I saw one between cars on the 6 on Wednesday.
The R62 has a green 8, red 9 (which is why the skip/stop train added to the 1 line was called 9), and IIRC, a purple 10.
Purple 11, Red 10, 13, Green 12. Wouldn't it be cool if the 7 express came to be signed as the 11? unless Southland decides to file a copyright infringement suit on the MTA.
No, GREEN 10, Purple 11, Red 12 and 13. I think there's also a green 14. I have seen Green 10 on numerous occasions as well as purple 11.
These alternative route numbers would be ideal for the rush-hour services.
Wayne
I saw a green 11 on a ten car set that was out of service recently on the Pelham Line. But, I do belive I've seen a purple 11 too. Weird huh?
Having the Flushing express labeled purple>11 would make it easier to tell them
apart from the local. Unfortunatley I don't the the R3336 WF cars have these signs. Perhaps when the
Flushing line gets the R62's ...
Sorry for confusing everyone out here, I just thought I'd clear up what I was trying to say.
I alluded to the 8 train at the end of my previous message, and this is what needs clarification. There is a green 8, red 9, green 10, purple 11, green 12, and red 13. The reason I mentioned the 8, is that a SubTalk poster some months ago mentioned a propsal for improving the service on the Pelham Line and eliminating the bottle neck at Parkchester. An express that terminates at Parkchester, and a local to Pelham is much more practrical than the service at the present time. Presently, the local/exp service overlaps each other, and so I don't see why you can't undo the so-called Parkchester bottleneck. Gee, doesn't the local going into the middle for the relay back to Manhattan delay the Pelham Exp waiting to cross to the local track (and heading to Pelham)?
That's what I was thinking!
Regards,
Stef
Wow and there are 70MPH turnouts on the North East Corridor hmmm...
This means that MABSTOA will get our work from Huntspoint to Pelham. What a shame!
Bob,
I tried to reply to your Email twice but I got back a message from the Post Office "user Unknown". I don't know why as I clicked "reply" so it should have gone to the exact Email addy you sent it from!!!! Just letting you know so you don't think I'm ignoring you.
bobnjudy3@juno.com My mistake, try it again Bob
I've been seeing alot of signal work lately on the subways, is this a sign of the possible addition of more of those dreaded wheel detectors?
Since they added them in on the Lexington avenue express it's been a good deal slower. Why are they adding these "WD's"? Subways should be rapid transit, not crawling like that 5 train I was on Friday!
The GT's are annoying enough, now wheel detectors, what's next? The trains are slower than they've ever been, soon they will be traveling the same speeds as a city bus!
Get used to it. It's not so Rapid Transit today. $$ dollars before efficency. And that safety line is a load of BULL! It ran fine for 80 years untill they started trying to save money by modifying the brakes.
MTA= Resistance is Futile
What I'm still at a loss to understand is how the subway's signal system had suddenly become "inadaquate" to handle today's trains. I mean, it's not like the bulk of the equipment is anything recent. I'll peg it on brakes, but it begs the question - why WOULDN'T you want a maximum decelleration rate in emergency?
The signal system did not suddenly become inadequate.
It took many years of engineering to accomplish that. Start
with SMEE cars that had higher top end speeds than their predecessors.
Not too bad though, because their brakes were superior too,
so stop distances were about the same. Then starting in the
late 60s, block lengths were reduced in some areas to increase
track capacity, the fleet started going over to comp. shoes,
and finally the relay valves were "upgraded" to improve passenger
comfort by reducing service and emergency brake rates. A lot of
low-level people at the TA advised managers that all this was a bad
idea years before the WB wreck. Then the NTSB came in and issued
a critical report which forced the TA to react.
Wheel detectors are a complicated system, difficult to calibrate,
and because they are essentially blind stops, train operators
proceed DEAD SLOW through them. They were more a reaction to the
Union Square wreck, though oddly they do not address that particular
scenario. The WD protects against against a TO entering a turnout
at the proper speed but wrapping it up too quickly so the back
end of the train whips through the switch. This is a fairly obscure
problem and the chances of it causing a derailment are slim because
how fast can you go anyway while you're over a tight switch?
You've got a car or two on the gap at any given time and you have
the additional curve load to slow you down. IMHO, they could have
addressed this by using the existing "DT" 2-shot timers (or luny whites) and just extending the time control for one block beyond
the turnout.
Maybe Mr Train Control can explain the tech operation of the WD
track circuits. Is it similar to constant warning time highway
crossing protection?
THANX JEFF! An educated and knowledgeble person sees my point. The whole point was saving money on flat wheels and lawsuits over falls from hard emergency stops. Money before safety, yep That's TA.
So now we have to live with this kneejerk reaction to please the feds. It costs money. But it saves money too. Now the equipment can use less power and TA saves! With everything in Enercon to slow it down, power consumption is cut. I'm sure TA has notified Con Ed to have their billing adjusted.
But "We're SERIOUS about safety"!
This all reminds me of a tape I have. Cab ride on a Amtrak AEM7 911 (no I did not make up the number) from DC to Philly. The electric motor can go 125mph, it had two speedometers. BUT one was reading wrong.
The problem here was the OVERSPEED indicator and Automatic Train Stop were tied in to the broken speedometer. The engineer as required by Railroad RULES carried a device to determine the speed of the train via wayside mile markers. The Amtrak employee time table states which mile markers are EXACTLY a mile apart (some can be off up to 600ft). This engineer had a stop watch that converted seconds to miles per hour (he did not have to do it manualy as in the old days).
He took the train up to 125mph on the broken speedometer and then pushed it, the overspeed warning sounded and the other speedometer still said he had 5mph to go until 125mph. All in all upon checking with his stop watch the overspeed speedometer was off by at least 5mph. At least with the overspeed warning, he has 3 to 4 mph until the Automatic Train Stop is activated to slow down (the train can actualy continue to accelerate).
I can only hope this dosen't happen with the Wheel Detectors and the signal department is up to keeping them working right. Well the signals for most part work right....
Did you know that the wheel detector system can be bypassed on the tower control machine? That's right. The wheel detector system is a good system and is probably the best method to have continuous train control without cab signaling. The sets of wheel detectors detectors a single axle traveling from one head to the other. Knowing the distance between the heads and the time it takes to get from one to the other, then the speed can be calculated. If the train operates within the required speed then the trip stays retained. If the train overspeeds, then the trip retaining circuit is broken causing the trip to go the danger.
The Harmon vital microprocessor is nothing more than a calculator. Not very complicated. It's the ancilliary functions that make it complicated and this is done with good old dependable vital relays.
In my engineer training class, a stopwatch was never utilized as the special instructions timetable has a speed table concerning measured miles but the principle was the same. In the Bergen Tunnels, you were required to time your movement from MP 1 to just past the Weehawken shafts, which was MP 2. The spped limit was 60 to you expected to run the mile in exactly one minute. 59.02 mph=1 min 1 sec and 61.02mph = 59 seconds. Anyway back to the wheel detectors, what would happen to an IRT drag going through the wheel detectors at Pacific or Court St? I would assume they might cause the wheel detectors to trip the train as the axles are closer together on the R-36s and the detectors installed were meant for R-32s. In this case can the R-68s cheat an extra mile per hour because of their axle arrangments. My main concern would be for the train operator who is operating an IRT interdivisional drag and his speedometer is reading the speed limit posted on the fixed WD signal while the WD signal might indicate an overspeed condition and possibly trip the train. By the way for all T/Os I found out from TSS AND Signal Dept. that the time, date, MPH and all overspeed conditions whether the trains are tripped or not are recorded digitally by the system itself. I haven't heard whether these tapes are used to the extent that black boxes on aircraft or locomotives are after incidents but you are now informed.
The length of the timing section is 4 feet. That means that the wheel detector heads are 4 feet apart. When an axle is detected at the first head then the microprocessor will look for the same axle at the second head later in time. The axle will pass the first head and then the system will wait for that same axle to show up at the second head. Knowing the distance is 4 feet and the time it took the same axle to travel the 4 feet then the speed can be calculated. You can figure that out. The 4 feet is derived to be less than the distance between wheel base of the shortest rail car truck.
GET IT NOW. The type of equipment, R-68 or workcars, etc, used is not revelant to detecting speed.
Don't be afraid to challenge Mr. Train Control.
What is being used to sense the passage of an axle, Inductive,
optical, mechanical, etc?
It's magnetic.
It was a reaction by the TA for the WillyB collision a few years ago. The NTSB was involved too. The philosophy now is slower is safer. There are wheel detectors availiable at Canal St. on the A/C/E, but never used because they would realistically bring the RR to a halt. I don't say I agree or disagree, but that is the way it seems to be right now.
Overreaction is a better word, IMHO. I suppose that WDs are fine for blind curves and such, but straightaways? Maybe it's just as well the R-10s are no longer with us. The thought of them crawling along makes me ill.
In the NY Post Sunday October 3, pages 2 and 3, is a article on ''How to put full second ave. line on track. Also there is a article about ''Half-measures won't do for a project critical to the future of NY'' pages 2 and 3 of the NY Post Sunday October 3.
After the good folks read the article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
Post Online Edition has three articles:
http://www.nypostonline.com/tindex.htm
They have the right ideas -- higher fares and tolls at rush hour (on all Manhattan approaches), hiring one company to build the thing instead of getting repeatedly raped on every contract, and letting corporations name the stations in exchange for building them.
It's not often the Post has the right ideas.
Yes, and they should raise the parking tax to 19% and the cost of parking meters. They should raise the fines for traffic infractions and have sadistic crackdowns on motorists, for stopping, standing, blocking the box and honking your horn in Manhattan. Tow more violators and double the cost of getting your car back from the pound. Another thing I would do is charge non handicapped city employees for their parking permits. Take $100-200 a year out of their salary for the right to such exclusive parking; other wise they can take the subway like everybody else. By the way I'm not against giving city employees a break on a monthly metrocard. Combign these ideas with raising the tolls and there could be a lot of money for new transit. Not to mention the taxes from the increased property value along the new line(s).
(City employees parking).
You bring up a sore point. DCP research (unpublished) shows that 14 percent of the cars entering Manhattan have a permit to park on the street. There are spaces reserved for high and not-so-high officials all over Lower Manhattan and Downtown Brooklyn, along with many neighborhoods. In poor neighborhoods, the school staff parks in the playground and the kids have no where to pay.
Meanwhile, not only will the city not pay for ever part of a Metrocard through the TransitChek program (many private employers pay for the whole thing), they have refused to even all city employees to buy them oursevles with pre-tax dollars. I'm told negotiations on the subject broke down because the city demanded unversal drug testing in return.
I say make all those employees who are permitted to park piss in a cup.
Yes, I say tax them some how. Make them pay for parking and take the money to subsidse the subway. Or to cover the cover a break on the cost of a metrocard for a vast majoity of lower level employees and teachers.
[Meanwhile, not only will the city not pay for ever part of a Metrocard through the TransitChek program (many private employers pay for the whole thing), they have refused to even all city
employees to buy them oursevles with pre-tax dollars. I'm told negotiations on the subject broke down because the city demanded unversal drug testing in return.]
Only a government could come up with something so boneheadedly ridiculous.
WHY??
Drivers are people too and have rights!!!
Yes, drivers have rights, but the right to drive a private automobile (if such a thing exists) does not negate the need to pay for the roads, bridges, and other government services provided to automobiles and their owners. I have the right to own land, but I am also assessed property tax to pay for the operation of local governments that serve that land.
The streets and bridges aren't "free" -- someone has to pay for them. And the streets include curbside parking: the city has to keep this area of the street paved and clean just as much as the driving lanes. So it's only fair to charge people who use these public benefits for the costs of those benefits.
Actually most states state the driving is a privliledge and not a write and the Supremem Court Backed this Up
10/03/99
When we think of Jackie Gleason and his array of unusual characters,Ralph Kramden comes to mind. The popular Honeymooners series not only exploited Ralph's life and times but also mirrored his younger years growing up on Chauncey Street. Jackie had a hard life growing up in the depression 30's and some of that appeared on his Honeymooner skits. When Jackie was young his alcoholic father had a tendency to leave and return home at will. One day he never returned and left Jackie an only child to be reared by his mother Mae in their Chauncey street flat. The following two paragraphs are from the James Bacon paperback entitled "How sweet it is",and will surprise some of you of some bit of transit in his early years:
"I was never angry about Pop leaving us. I figured there must be something between him and Mom that I didn't know about. He was always okay with me. He had a great sense of humor,that I do remember. If he had just dropped by once. Just once.
Mae was too proud to take relief,as welfare assistance was called in those days,although she was deserving of it. Instead she took a job as a token clerk on the subway that ran between Brooklyn and Manhattan - the BMT. It was a tough job working in that cage,unheated in the winter and sweltering in the summer. Jackie remembers his mother going to work in the winter with blankets she could wrap around her legs. All the other guys in our block used to play a game jumping over the turnstiles to beat the BMT out of a nickel. I couldn't do that,knowing what my mom went through on that job".
And then tragedy struck young Jackie and the BMT came to the rescue.
"There was no insurance,which meant that Mae would have to be buried in potter's field,the biblical term for a pauper's graveyard. How she would have hated that. But,miracles of miracles,when the folks at the BMT heard of their former co-worker's death,they collected two hundred and fifty dollars to bury her.Thank God for the BMT. Jackie had no money,but his Aunt Maggie gave him five dollars to buy some flowers for his mother's coffin - "From your loving son,Jackie".
This book is probably out of print,but for your info:
St.Martin's Press
175 Fifth Ave.
New York,NY 10010
ISBN# 0-312-90229-8
(c) 1985
Bill Newkirk
Thanks for sharing the great picture Jeff.
I have not seen this one before. I have seen the one with Ralph, Allice, Norton and Trixie Do you have that one?
One of the VPs here drove that bus ... he has two photos on the wall, one with Ralph & one of him.
COOL DIGS!!!
That is interesting. I did not know Gleason's bio. Although, I do know that he came from Brooklyn.
In a post a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that the fictional Cramden, (who was a motorman or condutor instead of a bus driver), was really the son of the Malbone St motorman.
Anyway, New York is filled with those stories.
It was always rough for a lot of kids growing up in New York, many of whom, went on to some major and minor successes in life. For almost all of us, the NYC transit system was a real necessity, when the place you had to go to was out of walking distance. Some times, a dime or a 15 cent piece (a token or 2) for round trip fare was a little hard to come by.
[In a post a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that the fictional Cramden, (who was a motorman or condutor instead of a bus driver), was really the son of the Malbone St motorman.]
Hmmmm ... coulda been. Figure that Ralph Cramden would've been born sometime around 1920. Edward Luciano was born in 1894 or 1895. It works out :-)
But wasn t Cramdon Irish, and Luciano Italian(Any relation to Charley)
Wow! I never knew that about Gleason's early life in Brooklyn. Seems he had the "transit bug" since a child?
I always knew however that he grew up in Bed-Stuy. As a matter of fact since the "Honeymooners" was set in Bensonhurst there is a technical blooper on the show: Gleason used his childhood address of Chauncey St. even though it is located in Bedford-Stuyvesant!
Doug aka BMTman
10/03/99
The Chauncey St. address is really located in Bushwick. For the show they used the location Bensonhurst because they felt it sounded funnier than Bushwick.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks, Bill. I recall Chauncey Street well, since I once dated a young lady (back in my youth) who lived on the street, but in the second block of the street which definitely was in Bed-Stuy (her house was almost across from Boys and Girls H.S.)
BTW, it looks like Jackie Gleason's transit-related life came full-circle when the Fifth Avenue Bus Depot (adjacent to the 36th Street BMT maintenance yard) was renamed Jackie Gleason Depot (I think this happenned about 10 years ago). I believe there is even a "Honeymooners" type logo on the buses that originate from there.
Doug aka BMTman
Actually I would call it Bed/Stuy. I always thought someplace had to be north of Bway to be considered part of Bushwick.
I never knew about Gleason's mom working for the BMT, but I did know that Phil Rizzuto's father was a BMT trolley motorman...(in fact Scooter got to save trolley fare because his dad worked on the run that went to his high school...). He mustve gotten laid off during the unification, because when the intitial draft was started up in 1941, Phil was exempt being the sole support of his family.....
Yesterday, we attended the meeting of the NJT group in Jersey City, N.J. We listened to talks by transit people, assemblywomen, etc. The last speech was extremely intersting by "Al", who explained the whole
system in a nutshell to us. Everybody was justly proud of their work and efforts. It is a system to be proud of, for sure. Development is
springing up all around the line, as what happens with most transit ventures.
At the conclusion of the meeting , we drove to the Communipaw yard and shops. We were able to view cars in storage , and take a 3 mile ride on one of the new trains. The cars are very smooth accel/decell
and otherwise. Interiors are done in grey and blue. We then went up to the Command Center in the Communipaw building and were given some talks by assorted personal. What you have is an up-to-date well run system that has prepared for everything. One example is that if the main computer is down , the car can still run itself, throwing switches, etc.
I was very impressed, and wish the planners and team great sucess with this venture.
Chuck Greene
Ever since the Type 8s came out, perhaps a few good suggestions for the future Type 9 car.
#1) Retain low-floor, but add the ability to kneel to eliminate the need for wheelchair ramps.
#2) Make these Type 9 cars a la CBTC on the R-143s.
#3) To give the T a better image about how it cares about transit availability on the E branch, place all Type 9 cars exclusively to the E line. Upgrade E line track to CBTC.
#3a) This would work much better if the T cares and reopens Arborway branch of the E, with much more service, exclusively run by Type 9s.
Just giving my 2 tokens worth,
Nick
Well Nick, all that would sure be nice! Maybe we can have a race to see which is open first... E line to Arborway (with Type-9s) or the NYC 2nd Ave Subway!!
The ideal car is simple, thus impossible to build in todays technology era!
Best Type series car: The Type 5!
Gerry
If all goes to plan, I'll be coming to town on Saturday for another solo railfan trip.
I'll try to tackle the SIR, Rockaway and Queens Blvd lines and finaly do the Brighton and Sea Beach(which I haven't gotten to, quite yet).
And, hopefully, the Franklin Shuttle will be complete and I can do the refurbished Willy-B.
A friend said he saw a train up there before. I'll go check and post my findings.........Mark
NOT YET... A test train was recently there, though. It is supposed to open this week. Any further info is welcome........Mark
As I have previously posted, I believe the target date for the return of revenue service is Wednesday, October 6. I plan to leave an extra hour earlier to work to see if it is opened and do a "test run" of my own.
Doug aka BMTman
I'll be sure to get it if it's open October 9th. I wonder
if they'll surprise us all and run different cars on the
line(not gonna happen, but it would be fun, no?).
BTW, Check out version 2.0 of HREF="http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Factory/2538/">Su
bway Steve's homepage.
Sorry about the HTML. My cat wants attention.
Steve, I checked out your site, it is very good!!!
Maybe they will run R1-9 or a Triplex, I remember back in the early 50s they used to layup a 5 car articulated train does anyone remember. That is where I remember the 7 Line, or maybe it was 8000. 40 plus years ago. Fred do you remember?
The Zephyr (Stainless Steel 1934 Budd Experimental) did regular service on the Franklin Shuttle for a while.
Right, Paul. I vote that they get the remaing R-11 at the Transit Museuem, up and running for the first day of service (You know I'm whistlin' Dixie here, right?)
Just a quick daydream.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks Paul, I knew I was remembering correctly, and they had the head sign 7 Franklin/Fulton St Green Green Lights
Did the [R11s?] say Franklin/Fulton? I don't recall. Any signage I remember just said "Franklin Avenue" which was a kind of misnomer, since every station on the line is walking distance from Franklin Avenue.
The northernmost station should actually be called "Fulton Street."
It runs alongside Franklin Ave, but if you remember the original el turned off the Fulton St El and the stations were named Franklin Ave.
From 1940 to 1942 both the Zephyr and the Green Hornet covered the Franklin Shuttle. After the Green Hornet went off to war the Zephyr #7029 continued to serve until August 4,1954.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Let's Go Mets!!!
METS METS METS METS METS METS METS MMMMMMMMMMMMEEEEEEEEEETTTTTTTSSSSS!
Yea baby!!. Now if we can just whip the Reds tomorrow. Keep your fingers crossed guys and keep the good thoughts coming.
I would like to see a subway series. I have a old T shirt from Billy Martin Days that show a 4 Train and a 7 Train crashing into each other. If it happens I would love a T shirt . Modells had something like a subway series T shirt on sale when I was there in June, but it was for the inter league games.
Hmmm, I wonder who'd get the worst of a direct collision, a WF R3336 or an R62 ...
If I were appointed Supreme Dictator of Chicago for a lifelong term (a position Hizzoner Maredaley currently occupies), here's what I'd do to improve the city's rapid transit network:
Get out your CTA maps to follow along...
GENERAL:
1. Restore late-night "owl" service on all rapid transit lines.
2. Add 2 additional tracks as needed on the Red and Blue lines to accommodate true express service, much like the NYC system. Express trains would make limited stops during the day on weekdays, and possibly on weekends for special events downtown during the summer. Local trains would make all stops at all times.
3. Install ATC on all lines, similar to MARTA and the Washington Metro.
4. Except for the already-new Orange Line, rebuild all infrastructure not otherwise impacted by the David Cole Plan. New stations would be fully ADA-compliant, and adopt similar design guidelines as the stations on the Washington Metro system. (Example: No structural columns within 10 feet of platform edges, etc.) Stations would have consistent signage, and the architecture of each station would reflect Chicago's heritage as the world mecca for modern architecture.
5. Lengthen all platforms to accommodate 10-car trains.
ROLLING STOCK:
New trains would be made up of articulated 5-car units, featuring full ATC, carpeting and padded seats, and electronic destination signs.
CUSTOMER SERVICE:
Employees would be required to attend customer service “boot camp”, receiving training similar to what retail employees are required to receive. All customer complaints would be permanently filed. Employees who receive excessive complaints would be put on probation and possibly terminated. Employees who receive customer compliments will receive special recognition and / or financial bonuses.
RED / YELLOW / PURPLE LINES:
1. The Yellow and Purple Lines would be consolidated into the Red Line. The Dempster terminal on the former Yellow Line would become the terminal of the Red Line express trains, while the Linden terminal on the former Purple Line would become the terminal for the Red Line local trains. Some local trains would also terminate at Howard, as Evanston doesn't require as frequent service.
2. Re-route the Red Line so that it goes into a subway just north of Irving Park. The subway would run under Clark Street until just south of Lincoln Avenue, at which point it would swing east under Lincoln Park and head south under State Street to Division, where it would re-join its original route. This would straighten out a few sharp curves, as well as more adequately serve the densely populated lakefront neighborhoods. (Ever try to ride the 151 bus at rush hour?) In addition, the Dan Ryan leg would be extended to 108th / Stony Island. Local trains would make all stops (generally at every half-mile street), while express trains would stop at Dempster (transfer to new Yellow Line -- see below) Howard, Wilson, Belmont, Armitage, Chicago, Grand (transfer to new Purple Line), Washington, Jackson, Roosevelt, 35th, 75th (transfer to new Yellow Line), 95th, and 108th.
BLUE LINE:
Local tracks would continue on the existing right-of way. Due to space limitations on the elevated portion between Logan Square and Division, express tracks would split off just south of Logan Square and continue under Milwaukee Avenue until Division, where they would rejoin the existing right-of-way. Local trains make all stops; express trains stop at O'Hare, Rosemont, Comberland, Jefferson Park (Yellow Line, Brown Line transfer), Logan Square, Damen, Clark / Lake, Washington, Jackson, Clinton, Halsted, Cicero (Yellow Line transfer), and Forest Park.
GREEN LINE:
Add stops at Western, Damen, Halsted, Cermak, 18th and 27th. Transfer to new Yellow Line at Cicero.
ORANGE LINE:
Extend line south from Midway to Ford City. Transfer to new Yellow Line at Midway and Ford City.
BROWN LINE:
Re-routed between Division and Addison. The new right-of-way would be roughly along Clybourn Avenue to Ravenswood Avenue where it would rejoin the existing route just south of Addison. This would provide rapid transit access to the rapidly-growing Clybourn Corridor, while also eliminating a number of sharp curves on the line. The line would also be extended west along Lawrence Avenue to Jefferson Park, providing transfer to the Blue Line and new Yellow Line and giving North Siders a much easier way to get to O'Hare.
NEW PURPLE LINE:
A new rapid transit line from the vicinity of Brickyard Mall at Fullerton and Narragansett, running along a right-of-way roughly aligned with Grand Avenue to Wabash, at which point it would turn south and head through downtown in a new subway. South of downtown, the line would shift over to the lakefront and share the IC right-of-way to a new terminal at the former South Works site at 87th / Mackinaw. Stops would be generally at every half-mile street along Grand, State - Wabash (transfer to Red and Silver Lines), Washington, Jackson and at major cross-streets along the IC right-of-way. IC trains on the south side would then run express between 63rd and downtown, while Milwaukee District West Line trains on the west side would run express between Glenwood and downtown.
NEW YELLOW LINE:
A new crosstown express / local line beginning at the Dempster terminal on the Red Line, and running roughly along or under Cicero Avenue until Ford City where it would turn east along 75th and terminate at the new South Works Terminal. Local stops would be generally at every half-mile street; express stops would be Dempster (transfer to Red Line), Jefferson Park (Blue, Brown Lines), Grand (Purple Line), Lake (Green Line), Congress (Blue Line), Cermak (Blue Line), Midway (Orange Line), Ford City (Orange Line), Dan Ryan (Red Line), and South Works (Purple Line).
NEW SILVER LINE:
A new lakefront subway connecting the major destinations in and around the downtown area. Begins at Navy Pier, heads west under Grand (transfer at Grand / Wabash to Red and Purple Lines), then turning south and sharing the right-of-way with the new Purple Line, making express stops at Washington, Jackson, Museum Campus, Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park and South Works.
DOWNTOWN / LOOP:
New, larger stations built on the Dearborn, State and Wabash subways at Washington and Jackson (Monroe stop eliminated), as well as corresponding new stations on the Wabash el. Stations would be linked via underground concourses under Washington, Madison, Adams and Jackson to provide free transfers between all lines.
SOUTH WORKS:
Not really part of the transit plan, but as Mayor this would be one of my pet projects: A new urban amusement park on the lakefront at the abandoned South Works site. Similar in nature to Chicago's old Riverview Park or New York's Coney Island. Yellow Line, Purple Line and Silver Line would terminate here, providing access to South Works Park from all areas of the city.
Don't applaud, just throw money. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
David -
I enjoyed reading your proposal. What seems to be missing from your list of lines is a line which would connect to the West Loop Metra station (Union Station and the Ogilvie Transp. Center, formerly known as NorthWestern Station).
My proposal, instead of trying to rebuild all of the Chicago 'L' system, would be to add a single new line (you may pick whatever color you want for it). It would run basically along the ICRR/Metra Electric right of way, and replace the the Metra commuter service with more frequent 'L' service on the South Chicago branch and on the main line as far south as 115/Kensington. 115/Kensington could be rebuilt to include, in additon to the 'L' line terminal, an Amtrak station, and an expanded Metra station (expanded to 3 or 4 tracks), as well as a Greyhound bus station, to make it a major transportation hub/transfer point.
In Chicago, it would continue North past Randolph St. the the Streeterville area north of the Chicago river via a new subway, with stops to serve Navy Pier and the Northwestern Medical Center, as well as the North Michigan Ave. area.
A branch would run east-west along Monroe St to Canal/Monroe, which would connect via a new pedestrian subway to Union Station and Ogilvie Transportation Center. (possible future extension of this line westward to serve Greektown and the United Center) The junction at Monroe would be a 'Y' type junction, allowing routings from Canal/Monroe to both Navy Pier area as well as to the South Side.
-- Ed Sachs
"Restore late-night 'owl' service on all rapid transit lines."
I can definitely see restoring it on the Purple (Northwestern students coming into the city at all hours) and on the Brown as a Kimball-Belmont shuttle. It doesn't make as much sense for the Green Line because it's always paralleled by lines with 24-hour service. The Orange line has never had owl service and doesn't really need it because its main purpose is to serve Midway Airport, and the airport closes late at night, IIRC. Mind you, if the airport were open 24 hours a day, I'd say that the Orange should get owl service.
The CTA owl service on the trains is not that bad. Between the Blue and the Red lines, most of the city that is readily accessible to L service during the day also has night service. The North, South, West and Northwest Sides all have 24-hour L service. What DOES suck is the CTA owl **bus** service. The night bus service is truly a skeleton of the day service in most neighborhoods, and people who only have to walk two blocks to a bus during the day can easily have to walk eight blocks at night.
"Add 2 additional tracks as needed on the Red and Blue lines to accommodate true express service, much like the NYC system. Express trains would make limited stops during the day on weekdays, and possibly on weekends for special events downtown during the summer. Local trains would make all stops at all times."
I like this idea, were the money available. I've always thought there should be an express service to O'Hare. There are already four tracks for the Red Line as far as Fullerton if you also run the Yellow and Purple in with the Red as you propose. By alternating Red trains so that expresses operate via the subway while locals use the L, no new subway tunnel would be needed. Adding tracks on the expressways (Dan Ryan, Eisenhower, and Kennedy) is relatively cheap.
Unfortunately, the sticking point is the old Logan Square Met L and the Milwaukee-Dearborn subway on the Blue. Adding extra track here would be murderously expensive. And on the L portion, where houses and businesses practically abut the L structure, it would involve the demolition of hundreds of homes with thousands of people. You would have to be mayor for life to get away with that politically. (^:
"Install ATC on all lines, similar to MARTA and the Washington Metro."
Great if you could retrofit existing cars (and stations: ATC also requires trains to stop at the right point in the station) for ATC. CTA has already shown it *can* be done by retrofitting cab signaling.
"Except for the already-new Orange Line, rebuild all infrastructure not otherwise impacted by the David Cole Plan. New stations would be fully ADA-compliant, and adopt similar design guidelines as the stations on the Washington Metro system."
Not really an overarching need, except of course repairing and maintaining structure in good condition. Diversity of station design is good, so long as the signage is consistent, which it basically already is.
"Lengthen all platforms to accommodate 10-car trains."
Good idea. Relatively easy and cheap at some stations (L and expressway stations) but difficult and expensive at others (subway stations).
"New trains would be made up of articulated 5-car units, featuring full ATC, carpeting and padded seats, and electronic destination signs."
5-car articulated is a bad idea: if one car goes bad for whatever reason, five come out of service, as opposed to two with the present married pairs. I agree with ATC and electronic signs, but carpet will get MURDERED on a system as busy as CTA!
"Employees would be required to attend customer service 'boot camp', receiving training similar to what retail employees are required to receive. All customer complaints would be permanently filed. Employees who receive excessive complaints would be put on probation and possibly terminated. Employees who receive customer compliments will receive special recognition and/or financial bonuses."
Got no disagreements from me here.
"The Yellow and Purple Lines would be consolidated into the Red Line. The Dempster terminal on the former Yellow Line would become the terminal of the Red Line express trains, while the Linden terminal on the former Purple Line would become the terminal for the Red Line local trains. Some local trains would also terminate at Howard, as Evanston doesn't require as frequent service."
I REALLY like this idea!
"Re-route the Red Line so that it goes into a subway just north of Irving Park. The subway would run under Clark Street until just south of Lincoln Avenue, at which point it would swing east under Lincoln Park and head south under State Street to Division, where it would re-join its original route."
Money?
"In addition, the Dan Ryan leg would be extended to 108th / Stony Island. Local trains would make all stops (generally at every half-mile street), while express trains would stop at Dempster ... Howard, Wilson, Belmont, Armitage, Chicago, Grand, ... Washington, Jackson, Roosevelt, 35th, 75th, ...95th, and 108th."
This is a good idea, and totally feasible. An extension as you propose has been considered in various plans for years.
"BLUE LINE: Local tracks would continue on the existing right-of way. Due to space limitations on the elevated portion between Logan Square and Division, express tracks would split off just south of Logan Square and continue under Milwaukee Avenue until Division, where they would rejoin the existing right-of-way. Local trains make all stops; express trains stop at O'Hare, Rosemont, Cumberland, Jefferson Park, ... Logan Square, Damen, Clark/Lake, Washington, Jackson, Clinton, Halsted, Cicero, .... and Forest Park.
I think you've hit it on the head with where express stops should be on the Blue if it were feasible (although I wouldn't skip Monroe.) But money is the problem here again, as referred to above.
"GREEN LINE: Add stops at Western, Damen, Halsted, Cermak, 18th and 27th."
Adding stations at Western or Damen (but not both), Cermak, and (possibly) 27th makes sense. But Halsted is too close to Clinton and 18th seems too close to a hypothetical Cermak station.
"ORANGE LINE: Extend line south from Midway to Ford City."
This is another extension that's been planned for years. Since the hypothetical right of way is basically free of buildings, this should not be unusually expensive or difficult to build.
"BROWN LINE: Re-routed between Division and Addison. The new right-of-way would be roughly along Clybourn Avenue to Ravenswood Avenue where it would rejoin the existing route just south of Addison."
Not really a bad idea, but a Clybourn Avenue line would be somewhat redundant with the Blue line along Milwaukee. And would you absorb the existing closely-spaced Brown stations at Wellington, Diversey, Armitage, and Sedgwick into Red Line service, as they would be bypassed by a Clybourn Cutoff?
"The line would also be extended west along Lawrence Avenue to Jefferson Park, providing transfer to the Blue Line ... and giving North Siders a much easier way to get to O'Hare."
This is one of my "pet" ideas for years, so I agree with this one 100% even though funding might be somewhat difficult.
"A new rapid transit line from the vicinity of Brickyard Mall at Fullerton and Narragansett, running along a right-of-way roughly aligned with Grand Avenue to Wabash, at which point it would turn south and head through downtown in a new subway. South of downtown, the line would shift over to the lakefront and share the IC right-of-way to a new terminal at the former South Works site at 87th/Mackinaw."
As you sort of concede, this would be redundant with the Metra Electric and the Metra Milwaukee West lines. The Milw-W stations that would be skipped are not high-traffic, so the neighborhood may not be able to support a rapid transit line. Of course, the definitive answer would be in the ridership figures for the #65 (Grand) bus route.
"A new crosstown express/local line beginning at the Dempster terminal on the Red Line, and running roughly along or under Cicero Avenue until Ford City where it would turn east along 75th and terminate at the new South Works Terminal. Local stops would be generally at every half-mile street; express stops would be Dempster (transfer to Red Line), Jefferson Park (Blue, Brown Lines), Grand (Purple Line), Lake (Green Line), Congress (Blue Line), Cermak (Blue Line), Midway (Orange
Line), Ford City (Orange Line), Dan Ryan (Red Line), and South Works (Purple Line)."
This is the old Crosstown Line proposal. But is the ridership there? What sort of ridership figures do the Cicero Avenue bus routes have?
"A new lakefront subway connecting the major destinations in and around the downtown area. Begins at Navy Pier, heads west under Grand (transfer at Grand/Wabash to Red and Purple Lines), then turning south and sharing the right-of-way with the new Purple Line, making express stops at Washington, Jackson, Museum Campus, Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park and South Works."
While I've pooh-poohed your other proposals above for truly new transit lines as either redundant or expensive, this one makes good sense. It is a much better and more comprehensive version of the Downtown Circulator light-rail proposal that came and went a few years ago. The problem with a light-rail line is that it would have to fight traffic the same as buses already do. Since I don't favor your Wabash Avenue subway proposal, and my office is in Michigan Avenue, (^: I would propose a subway from a Navy Pier terminal via Grand to Michigan (and a Michigan/Grand station), via Michigan to Randolph/Washington (Cultural Center and the Randplph Street Station), Adams/Jackson (Art Institute), and Harrison/Balbo (the South Michigan Avenue hotels and college buildings), then under Roosevelt to a Museum Campus station, and finally to join the Metra Electric right-of-way to Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park (Museum of Science and Industry), and the terminus at your hypothetical South Works. This line would not replace the IC line but, running alongside it in the same right-of-way, would reduce construction expenses. Connecting major cultural and recreational sites with a single line would increase the funding opportunities and justify federal and state spending on the line in the minds of suburbanites and out-of-towners.
"New, larger stations built on the Dearborn, State and Wabash subways at Washington and Jackson (Monroe stop eliminated), as well as corresponding new stations on the Wabash el. Stations would be linked via underground concourses under Washington, Madison, Adams and Jackson to provide free transfers between all lines."
New and larger stations are always a good idea. (^: Mind you, CTA is working its way down the Red line with remodeling of the sort they did at Roosevelt station. What's wrong with Monroe station? Too many people get on the Blue and Red at their respective Monroe stops to divert them all to Washington and Jackson even if those stations are enlarged for 10-car trains. And experience with overhead "skywalk" systems in some cities shows that people tend to abandon the streets for climate-controlled walkways, with the empty streets leading to downtown looking deserted. Free transfers, beyond those already existing or those made possible by two or more lines having a common station, can be accomplished cheaply and easily with a reprogramming of the Transit Cards to give a free transfer when the card was last used at a rapid transit station and is now being used to enter another station.
"South Works. Not really part of the transit plan, but as Mayor this would be one of my pet projects: A new urban amusement park on the lakefront at the abandoned South Works site. Similar in nature to Chicago's old Riverview Park or New York's Coney Island."
I like it. Really a better location for an amusement park than the location across from Wolf Point that was being discussed a few years ago by Disney. Of course, it would need direct, express train service as you propose: many people are still wary of the South Side and would not go there if they were making frequent local stops.
"Don't applaud, just throw money. :-)"
Lots and lots of money. (^:
5-car articulated is a bad idea: if one car goes bad for whatever reason, five come out of service, as opposed to two with the present married pairs.
There's a trade off here. NYC Transit is moving to link its R-68s and R-68As, as well as the R-62s (and has already done the R-44/46s) into 4 car units permanently linked together. So if one unit goes, 4 cars are removed from service. The plus is that there is savings in equipment because you wouldn't need cab controls (and other equipment) in all 4 cars, just the first and last one for the cab controls. The theory is that a scheduled maintenance system would prevent many of the problems that would force an entire unit out of service because they would be "caught" by following a rigis preventative maintenance schedule.
Does CTA have an SMS program similar to NYC Transit's?
--Mark
It doesn't make as much sense for the Green Line because it's always paralleled by lines with 24-hour service. The Orange line has never had owl service and doesn't really need it because its main purpose is to serve Midway Airport, and the airport closes late at night, IIRC. Mind you, if the airport were open 24 hours a day, I'd say that the Orange should get owl service.
I feel that it's important for people in all neighborhoods to have dependable public transportation around the clock, including those neighborhoods not served by the Red and Blue lines. Having 24-hour rapid transit service would hopefully spur around-the-clock commercial activity in some of the neighborhoods that need it most.
[Regarding express tracks on the Blue Line:]
Unfortunately, the sticking point is the old Logan Square Met L and the Milwaukee-Dearborn subway on the Blue. Adding extra track here would be murderously expensive. And on the L portion, where houses and businesses practically abut the L structure, it would involve the demolition of hundreds of homes with thousands of people. You would have to be mayor for life to get away with that politically.
Hence, the proposal to route the express trains in a subway under Milwaukee Avenue between Logan Square and Division, while the locals continue to use the existing el.
"Except for the already-new Orange Line, rebuild all infrastructure not otherwise impacted by the David Cole Plan. New stations would be fully ADA-compliant, and adopt similar design guidelines as the stations on the Washington Metro system."
Not really an overarching need, except of course repairing and maintaining structure in good condition. Diversity of station design is good, so long as the signage is consistent, which it basically already is.
There are a number of reasons I feel the system needs a complete rebuild, but here are the two I feel most strongly about:
One of my pet issues is ADA compliance... I do volunteer work at the Rehabilitation Institute of Chicago and have a number of friends who use wheelchairs. Accessible public transit in Chicago is truly a disgrace. Even at the supposedly "accessible" stations, the elevators are usually malfunctioning, and it's very difficult for somebody in a w/c to handle the gap between the platform edge and the train. True, the CTA has "gap bridges" at each station, but this of course depends on finding a CTA employee who is able and willing to assist the passenger. In my experience, most CTA employees would rather sit in their ticket booth and pretend not to see somebody in a wheelchair. The feds would come down with both feet on any private business that treated people with disabilities so shamefully, but since the CTA is a goverment agency I guess they're not obligated to follow the same rules that the rest of us are.
In addition, there are some general safety concerns. Some el stations barely have 24" clearance between the platform edge and the rail or wall, and how this has managed to go uncorrected is beyond me. Personal injury lawyers must be drooling every time they see such a condition on the system.
5-car articulated is a bad idea: if one car goes bad for whatever reason, five come out of service, as opposed to two with the present married pairs. I agree with ATC and electronic signs, but carpet will get MURDERED on a system as busy as CTA!
As I understand it, many cars on the NYC subway system are permanently coupled in 4 or 5-car sets. I'm a bit curious to hear the pros and cons about this issue. Articulated married pairs could be an alternative to this idea.
Also, both the Washington Metro and Atlanta's MARTA system have carpeted cars. Atlanta has a fairly mild climate and MARTA doesn't get very high ridership, but Washington gets a fair amount of snow and fairly high ridership on Metro. How well does the carpet hold up on Metro trains?
"Re-route the Red Line so that it goes into a subway just north of Irving Park. The subway would run under Clark Street until just south of Lincoln Avenue, at which point it would swing east under Lincoln Park and head south under State Street to Division, where it would re-join its original route."
Money?
Details, details...
Besides, as mayor of Chicago I'd be fully aware of the fact that money does indeed grow on trees. :-)
"GREEN LINE: Add stops at Western, Damen, Halsted, Cermak, 18th and 27th."
Adding stations at Western or Damen (but not both), Cermak, and (possibly) 27th makes sense. But Halsted is too close to Clinton and 18th seems too close to a hypothetical Cermak station.
Western and Damen are a full half-mile apart from each other. Halsted and Clinton are closer, but I believe still far enough apart to each have a stop. Clinton serves as a transfer point to the C&NW trains, while the Halsted stop would provide convenient access to the Fulton Market area, which is seeing rpaid residential development. I'm not picky about having a stop at 18th, but a Cermak stop could provide convenient access to McCormick Place and Chinatown.
"BROWN LINE: Re-routed between Division and Addison. The new right-of-way would be roughly along Clybourn Avenue to Ravenswood Avenue where it would rejoin the existing route just south of Addison."
Not really a bad idea, but a Clybourn Avenue line would be somewhat redundant with the Blue line along Milwaukee. And would you absorb the existing closely-spaced Brown stations at Wellington, Diversey, Armitage, and Sedgwick into Red Line service, as they would be bypassed by a Clybourn Cutoff?
Clybourn and Milwaukee are still a fair distance apart, in addition to having the Kennedy Expressway and Chicago River running between them. As for the former stops at Wellington, etc., these would be replaced by my proposed Red Line subway under Clark Street, which would run a few blocks to the east.
"The line would also be extended west along Lawrence Avenue to Jefferson Park, providing transfer to the Blue Line ... and giving North Siders a much easier way to get to O'Hare."
This is one of my "pet" ideas for years, so I agree with this one 100% even though funding might be somewhat difficult.
Another idea that may be worth considering would be having the Lawrence Avenue line running all the way between the Wilson stop on the Red Line (already an express / local stop in my proposal) and Jefferson Park. This would further develop the Wilson stop into a major transit node, providing a much-needed catalyst for development in the Uptown neighborhood. Or possibly some sort of shuttle between the Damen stop on the Brown Line and Wilson, at the minimum.
[Regarding the Grand Avenue subway:]
As you sort of concede, this would be redundant with the Metra Electric and the Metra Milwaukee West lines. The Milw-W stations that would be skipped are not high-traffic, so the neighborhood may not be able to support a rapid transit line. Of course, the definitive answer would be in the ridership figures for the #65 (Grand) bus route.
Maybe, maybe not... I doubt that ridership on the Grand Avenue bus would be a very accurate indicator of the need for a rapid transit line. Many people who would ride a new Grand Avenue subway probably currently take a bus east to the Blue Line or south to the Green line and transfer there, as opposed to taking the 65 bus all the way downtown. A pretty long and inconvenient ride any way you cut it. Actually, it would probably make even more sense to shut down the Lake Street el and re-route it to Grand Avenue, as it would better distribute rapid transit access. Of course, this would be political suicide, and all the recent reconstruction on the Lake el would be for naught.
This is the old Crosstown Line proposal. But is the ridership there? What sort of ridership figures do the Cicero Avenue bus routes have?
Again, we have a similar issue. The people who would most likely ride the crosstown probably don't currently ride the Cicero bus. The crosstown (especially the express) would provide a much-needed way to get between O'Hare and Midway, as well as providing convenient transfers to all the other rapid transit lines without forcing people to ride the L all the way downtown or endure a painfully long and tedious north-south bus ride.
While I've pooh-poohed your other proposals above for truly new transit lines as either redundant or expensive, this one makes good sense. It is a much better and more comprehensive version of the Downtown Circulator light-rail proposal that came and went a few years ago. The problem with a light-rail line is that it would have to fight traffic the same as buses already do. Since I don't favor your Wabash Avenue subway proposal, and my office is in Michigan Avenue, (^: I would propose a subway from a Navy Pier terminal via Grand to Michigan (and a Michigan/Grand station), via Michigan to Randolph/Washington (Cultural Center and the Randplph Street Station), Adams/Jackson (Art Institute), and Harrison/Balbo (the South Michigan Avenue hotels and college buildings), then under Roosevelt to a Museum Campus station, and finally to join the Metra Electric right-of-way to Soldier Field, McCormick Place, Hyde Park (Museum of Science and Industry), and the terminus at your hypothetical South Works. This line would not replace the IC line but, running alongside it in the same right-of-way, would reduce construction expenses. Connecting major cultural and recreational sites with a single line would increase the funding opportunities and justify federal and state spending on the line in the minds of suburbanites and out-of-towners.
The only reason I picked Wabash was because it would provide for a much shorter hike for people transferring to the other rapid transit lines. Somebody transferring from the Wabash line to the Dearborn subway would already have to walk two blocks.
New and larger stations are always a good idea. (^: Mind you, CTA is working its way down the Red line with remodeling of the sort they did at Roosevelt station. What's wrong with Monroe station? Too many people get on the Blue and Red at their respective Monroe stops to divert them all to Washington and Jackson even if those stations are enlarged for 10-car trains. And experience with overhead "skywalk" systems in some cities shows that people tend to abandon the streets for climate-controlled walkways, with the empty streets leading to downtown looking deserted. Free transfers, beyond those already existing or those made possible by two or more lines having a common station, can be accomplished cheaply and easily with a reprogramming of the Transit Cards to give a free transfer when the card was last used at a rapid transit station and is now being used to enter another station.
The current renovations on the Red Line are mostly superficial cosmetic changes; like putting new wallpaper on a condemned building IMO.
Point taken about the Monroe stop; no reason it couldn't be retained.
Regarding the underground concourses, they would be completely within the fare-controlled zone -- basically just larger and nicer-looking versions of the transfer tunnels that already exisit between the State and Dearborn subways. Moving walkways similar to those used at O'Hare would also be a nice plus.
"South Works. Not really part of the transit plan, but as Mayor this would be one of my pet projects: A new urban amusement park on the lakefront at the abandoned South Works site. Similar in nature to Chicago's old Riverview Park or New York's Coney Island."
I like it. Really a better location for an amusement park than the location across from Wolf Point that was being discussed a few years ago by Disney. Of course, it would need direct, express train service as you propose: many people are still wary of the South Side and would not go there if they were making frequent local stops.
Anything built (or even touched, for that matter) by Disney is about 180 degrees removed from what I had in mind for South Works. What makes places such as Coney Island (and Chicago's old Riverview) so special is that they are decidedly un-corporate and allow for the kind of spontaneity that the sanitized suburban theme parks tend to frown upon. Yes, they're a bit raw and gritty, but that's part of the appeal. I'll take Coney Island over Six Flags any day of the week.
I'm not sure if it would even be possible to re-create a Coney Island or Riverside today, but it would certainly be worth a shot.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Are there any "official" plans for South Works now?
The only plans I'm aware of now are for some sort of light industrial park on the southern portion of the site. However, the size of the South Works site is immense, and could easily accomidate a wide variety of uses.
The portion I had in mind for the amusement park would be at the northern portion of the site, roughly between 79th and 85th Streets. The existing beach at Rainbow Park would be continued around the site. Other features of the park would include a boardwalk, a large public pier, a midway carnival, numerous rides and possibly a marina. Of course the rides would have to include at least a couple of kick-ass roller coasters. :-) The city streets would continue into the park itself, hopefully along with retail and commercial development. A ferry could even offer service to and from Navy Pier during the summer. Admission to the park itself would be free; tickets could be purchased for individual rides and attractions.
Very similar in nature to Coney Island or Chicago's old Riverview.
The rapid transit terminal would be at the southwest corner of the park, where the now-defunct EJ&E tracks enter the site. These tracks connect to the IC South Chicago tracks by means of a short right-of-way, currently abandoned and overgrown.
"Make no little plans..." -- Daniel H. Burnham
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
10/03/99
Yesterday on a gorgeou day,I spent the day with two friends chasing by car the special consist of 5 Bombardier cars,2 ex-Phoebe Snow observation cars and 2 simply beautifully repainted FL-9's in the classic New York Central lightning stripe livery. This was brought about to commemerate the 150th anniversary of railroad service to Peekskill,New York.
If you were there to photograph,videotape or witness poetry in motion let's hear from you. Let's hear your thoughts and suggestions. They will most likely be on display for the Harmon Open House on the October 16th. And if you were moved as well as I was,then voice your suggestion for a fantrip or two along with photo stops and video runbys.
Bill Newkirk
Be cool if they have them open inside for cab shots. I'm sick of it always being one of those boring P-32s....
I Hope Metro North Keeps them and the New Haven F 9s for a few more years. Now we need is LIRR to get a old Fairbank Morse, paint it gray and number itg 2001, and Bring Back the GGI to Penn Station
Ah yes the C-Liners ... I like them a lot & have several on my HO layout, but in NH vs. LIRR paint.
Mr t__:^)
New Haven always had a great paint scheme. The Gray LIRR was always blah. And then there was the Tuscan on the Pennsy
Too bad they didn't borrow an E-9 from Metra and repaint that in Lightning Stripes. It would have looked a lot like the E-8s and more authentic than a FL-9.
Bill, I would attend such a fan trip. Have never rode a Harlem or Hudson so either trip would be just fine with me.
Mr t__:^)
Hudson is more scenic, make sure they clean the windows so you can see out of them
Please don't all pounce on me at once but what is all the whoopla about with the Franklin Shuttle?
It is a decrepid old 4 station line, one of the most crime infested lines in the city. (Why I don't know, there are other lines with less crime going through rougher neighborhoods that hav more crime) I have to admit, I used to ride on it when it had BMT Standards, but only for the train. It does have historical significance, such as the Malbone wreck and its connection with the Fulton El, but almost any line in the city has historical significance. I would miss the Sneidiker Av El more than the shuttle.
the SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
A SICK & SHOCKING NEWS ARTICLE
try my OUTRAGEOUS color quiz
To each his own, Sarge.
You share Stan Fischler's opinion, it would seem. You and he must have a different perspective on what makes a line interesting.
Though I haven't ridden it in years, I find the Franklin Shuttle a fascinating line for a few reasons.
It is drenched in history. Not only the Malbone Street wreck. It contains the oldest piece of more-or-less original right-of-way in the city of any length. Until the rehab, it had three original elevated stations. It is one of the few backyard operations in the city. It has one of the few actual railroad-style tunnel portals in the city. (I can't think of another, but I suppose there might be some on the IRT).
Since it wasn't rebuilt in the Dual Contracts, it shows us what the Prospect Park-Church Avenue part of the Brighton used to look like.
Until recently it contained visible remnants of the original line to Bedford Terminal.
I don't know whether I'll be delighted or shocked when I see the rebuild.
BTW, what kind of crime does the line experience?
I'm with you Paul. The line has more historical significance than any other part of the system.
BTW, as for the crime problem, it was fare-beating if I am correct. (In off-hours the Franklin Shuttle was rather desolate). I know there are worst lines as far as violent crimes are concerned (and I bet most of those are IRT lines).
Doug aka BMTman
My home line being the Brighton, this last connection to the old history of it all. Yes there are faster, brighter, tighter, actioner lines all over the city. But the Prospect Shuttle it is pure History to me.
Heck new history, a line that is single tracked on the NYC Subway system....
10/04/99
Paul (Matus),
What was this line to Bedford Terminal you mentioned? I am curious about this.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, Bedford Terminal was the original northern terminal of The Brighton Beach Line from steam days until the line was connected with the Fulton Street L.
The location of the terminal (south side of Atlantic Avenue, east of the elevated structure) was still unbuilt on as recently as 20 years ago or so, the site of a used car dealership. A surface track could still be seen east of the current structure leading to this location, possibly as late as the current rebuild.
Don't get me wrong. I have nothing really against the line. I even used to ride 'em for the BMT Standards years ago. I just meant I was wondering why all the fanfare on this forum about the reopening of a 4 station, non-scenic line. If you read the postings it seems many of the posters consider the rebuilding of the Franklin as second only to the milenium!!!
As I said, Jeffrey, to each his own.
But the Franklin Shuttle is one of a kind on the system. I think most people could appreciate it for its uniqueness.
If you want scenic, forget about the subway system, ride a train to Albany.
Thank you, Paul. Well put.
BTW, any chance you might take a spin on the new Franklin Shuttle?
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Doug, how are you doing? I've been following the talk about the Franklin Shuttle recently. I don't think I've heard much about why there still is a Franklin Avenue Shuttle. If I'm not mistaken, there was a lot of community outrage at the possibility of not rebuilding the shuttle. I realize that this is a sensitive issue, but in all our talk here, have we spoken much about the people who use it and the politics of what kept it open and whether it is does serve a vital purpose? I think the whole people issue is important, because the people are the reason our big electric train set is here.
Yes, a coalition of the people of Crown Heights and Bed-Stuy actually prevailed over the system in the case of the Franklin Shuttle.
And to those who feel that a bus route could do what the shuttle has done misses the point: the Franklin gave commuters a DIRECT connection between the Fulton IND and the BMT Brighton Line. And now, it's usefullness is more evident with the creation of a walkway from the Shuttle to the IRT Franklin Ave. station. So that one route now connects all of the original subway systems. I think it was worth saving.....and not just for selfish railfan reasons ;-)
There's another reason why the Franklin Shuttle should have been (and was) rebuilt rather than shut down. Closing it would have meant that NYC had the only rail transit system in the country that was *contracting* let alone expanding. That would have been shameful.
Plus neighborhood demographics or other conditions (like, say, unsafe bridges) can change over the years, making the shuttle potentially more useful to others in the future.
When a line is gone, it's gone for good -- if they had kept the Culver Shuttle open, with the current Manhattan Bridge problems, the MTA could have reverse routed it to connect the West End line up with the F at Ditmas and run the B via the Rutgers Tunnel. That's impossible now, so if the bridge does have to be closed without notice in the near future, the West End line would probably be cut back to a 36th St.-Stillwell shuttle.
By keeping the Franklin shuttle open Brighton riders will have at least a couple of transfer options if any bridge closure occurs.
Doug: I understand that there will now be a free transfer between the IRT and BMT at Franklin Av and Eastern Parkway. There was a passageway built between these two stations back in 1918 when Botanical Gardens replaced Consumer's Park. The passageway ran from an unused mezzanine above the west end of the Franklin Av (IRT) to the mezzanine level of the Botanical Garden (BMT)Station.For some reason the passageway has never been used. Do you know if this was used or if they made the transfer by some other way?
BTW thank you for your running updates on the Franklin Av reconstruction.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I never knew about this 1918 walkway between the IRT and the BMT. Perhaps Paul Matus can lend a hand here?
And BTW, thanks for your compliments.
Doug aka BMTman
Not sure I've heard of an old passageway.
Should be pretty easy to check out, though.
Paul: My information is that the untiled pasageway could be seen through holes in the ceiling at the west end of the IRT platforms and through a grating in the wall of the BMT mezzaine. This was as late as 1964 so some of these traces may had been eliminated but the passageway would remain intact.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS Not being from Brooklyn how far apart are the two stations actually?
I'd say the walk between Botanic Gardens and the IRT station is somewhat like walking from 5th Avenue Flushing Line through the corridor to 42nd St. BDFQ.
Paul: Thanks. I do plan on going there when they re-open the line,hopefully next week.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What was actually built under dual contracts:
A mezzanine above the IRT tracks at the western end of the Franklin Av IRT station, including a stair to each platform. This mezzanine is approximately the same elevation as the Botanic Garden Platform and was intended for the transfer. On the BMT side, firstly they moved the station up to Eastern Parkway, and built the first ten feet or so of the passageway from the Bot Gdn mezzanine level (one flight up from the IRT mez level) out to the building line on Eastern Pkwy. The fineal 40 feet or so was never excavated (and would have required a flight of stairs). This stub passageway was uncovered and removed during the rehab. The new passageway extends from the north end of the northbound BMT platform directly to the IRT mezzanine. There are only a couple of steps at the end (plus the steps from the mezzanine to the IRT). It is really quite short, tho it has a kink in it to avoid removing a landmark tree on Eastern Pkwy (which has been permanently braced up also by the rehab--50 years from now, when the tree is long gone, no one will have any idea why the tunnel bends). The IRT mezzanine had been used for many years as District 32 Transit Police, which has moved to a building on Carroll street adjacent to the shuttle ROW. The mezzanine will also provide a useful additional way to cross between IRT platforms (eg for people who backride during service disrputions or diversions, or who travel from the Nostrand to New Lots Lines). It is a fairly large mezzanine--a good portion of it will still be walled off as office space.
Peter; Thanks for the info. You added quite a lot to the information that I had.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/07/99
I read an earlier post about pushing back to reopen date of the line to Dec.31. Is this becasue the transfer passageway is not complete? But that shouldn't be a reason to delay reopening the whole line!
Bill Newkirk
Bill and all concerned: from what I heard -- and this is only a rumor (and not from my ususal source, BTW) -- there are indications that the work on the line was not up to par in some locations (I don't even know if it was track work, electrical, or structural). Let's hope this is only a rumor and is not the fact. :-(
I wonder if anyone else here has heard anything along those lines?
I hope to hear more by early next week.
Doug aka BMTman
I just saw the G.O. list for the current week, and the Franklin Shuttle is still lised as "Till Further Notice"
Yeah, it's depressing.
Let us know if you hear something positive.
Doug aka BMTman
The two lines and their respective stations are at right angles to one another, but I'd guess that at their closest ends the stations are approximtely a half block from each other.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Thank you. The only place I know above ground in that area is the north end of Prospect Park near the Dung Museum.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I took that shuttle bus during the infamous flooding in late August and it took 20 minutes to get to Fulton Street from Prospect Pk. What does the shuttle take, 6 minutes?
I must take the new Franklin Shuttle! The shades of Bill Menden and William G. Gove will curse me if I don't.
But between work and family, I only get into the City for business these days, so I'll have to make a special effort.
The last time I rode the shuttle, the wood platform over the westbound at Franklin Avenue was still intact--so you can imagine what the shuttle still looks like in my mind.
I hope what I see when I visit doesn't upset me too much.
Paul, please e-mail me in advance of your trip -- that's if you don't mind the company.
Doug aka BMTman
I will do that, Doug, assuming it's not a spur-of-the-moment decision. (Bad RR pun intended).
10/05/99
I passed Franklin and Fulton on Sunday in my car and the entry building on the corner looked ready to open. A gent with reflective vest was on inside. A sign above entrance proclaimed - FRANKLIN AVENUE STATION (A) (C) (S). When I passed the shuttle bus stop the letters "FS" on the red & blue sign were covered over.
Bill Newkirk
Will the shuttle really reopen tomorrow? I want to ride it on the first day and I don't want to end up at Franklin Avenue forced to take that pathetic bus.
NOTICE TO ALL SUBTALKERS: The Franklin Shuttle WILL NOT be opening tomorrow. There is a delay and I have heard (thanks Lou) that the bus service will continue through the weekend. So the next possible opening day may be Monday, October 11. However, as soon as I hear anything about a definite date I will certainly post the info here.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Thanks for the info. I was planning to go there tomorrow but now I'll alter my plans.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/06/99
Maybe the TA was looking for a motorman with the name LUCIANO to initiate service ??
OUCH !!
Bill Newkirk
TA Customer Service told me it was pushed back to Dec. 31.
WHAT! That must be a mistake or one of their standard answers.
One customer service rep a couple of weeks ago told me around the beginning of the year as well. But then my contact at TA is usually not to far off the mark with these things.
Well, I'm keeping a sharp eye out for the removal of the construction barricades at the Franklin Ave. C train station. If it's gone, that would be a sure indicator that FS service has been restored.
Doug aka BMTman
One of the guys working at Botanic Garden yesterday also told me it would open on the 11th, Columbus Day, so I hope we can trust the date. I took the opportunity of a stroll down Franklin--and what a weird, semi-industrial part of the world it is, especially considering how opulent the architecture is a block away at Bedford; it's like a pocket of 19th-century, pre-zoning urbanism--to see what I could from the street. There are still two tracks in the open cut north of Eastern Parkway, and the western one merges into the eastern at the point near Sterling Place where the grade rises. (Speaking of which, I never noticed the sharp dip Park Place takes to get under the tracks--something to keep in mind if you're ever driving a loaded U-Haul in the neighborhood.) The platforms at Franklin and Park Place are built out where the western track had been, and the viaducts for that track have also been removed (although the embankments along the ROW are still their original dimensions). Park Place has a handsome station house where the southbound platform was--am I right in thinking that's brand new? It does resemble the one at Prospect Park. It has a long ADA-compliant ramp from Prospect Place. The Franklin Avenue station house looks quite glorious from the outside, with stained-glass windows around the shuttle platform and a handsome glass bridge to the Manhattan-bound C. (The original IND stair on the NW corner has been placed inside fare control and attached to this overpass, along with an elevator.) I didn't see any trace of Dean Street Station, unless the derelict ironwork leaning between the embankment and the TA cable shop had something to do with it.
The Park Place station is totally new, since the original was an island station. I believe this one rests where the southbound track used to run.
Yes, I took a picture of the ROW at the Steling Place overpass. I captured the Y convergence that is located just south of the overpass, as the dual tracks merge. There is a brand new NYCT storage equipment shed (?) up on the street level part of the embankment.
Doug aka BMTman
DEAN ST is gone PERIOD. It was only wood stuctrue in the end anyway. Matter of fact I used it once a year to work at a book warehouse that has now also moved to the west coast (Golden Lee Book Dist.).
I can't wait to get Pix of those stain glass windows, too bad the 68's will be in front of em...
"visible remnants of the original line to Bedford Terminal" Could you amplify on this?
"visible remnants of the original line to Bedford Terminal" Could you amplify on this?
( Repeat of my reply to Bill Newkirk )
Bedford Terminal was the original northern terminal of The Brighton Beach Line from steam days until the line was connected with the Fulton Street L.
The location of the terminal (south side of Atlantic Avenue, east of the elevated structure) was still unbuilt on as recently as 20 years ago or so, the site of a used car dealership. A surface track could still be seen east of the current structure leading to this location, possibly as late as the current rebuild.
Oops, I only saw the original reply after I had sent my message. Remaining surface tracks leading to Bedford Terminal!! Now that's historical. Maybe I'll go and try to sneak a peak while everyone else is celebrating this millenium thing (whatever the heck that is).
Am I correct in believing that the Brighton tracks heading north curved only westerly onto Atlantic Avenue? How would this remaining track fit into the scheme of things? Do any photos of Bedford Terminal exist?
Paul, is this Bedford Terminal in any way related to the proposed link between the Flatbush branch of the LIRR and the Brighton line back at the turn of the Century?
Just curious.
Doug aka BMTman
Although I'm not Paul, I would think so as the Flatbush branch ran street level on Atlantic in those days.
The Flatbush Branch LIRR has an interesting history vis-a-vis the Brighton Line. In addition to providing thru-routing in the BF&CI days for Brighton trains, the line itself (The LIRR line, that is) ended up owned by the BMT due to franchise issues that I'm not very familiar with. Because of this, the City owns the LIRR branch today.
I don't know the exact reasoning behind turn-of-the-century LIRR-Brighton plans at Franklin, but the historic relationship between the two roads probably had an impact.
I have seen the track layout at Bedford, but it was many years ago, I don't recall where I saw it, and I especially don't recall whether there was a direct eastbound connection.
Sorry, that's not much help!
The reason the line is owned by the City is that the original franchisee for a rail route along Atlantic was a company that was bought by the BMT. Prior to that, they leased their franchise to what became LIRR. With unification, the lease passed to the city as a BMT asset, it did not go to the TA (like the rest of the system) under the master lease because it isnt anything used to run the city transit system. LIRR pays some fairly low (by todays standards) amount under this lease (that expires fairly soon). All of this affected the plans to rehab Atlantic Terminal station, (which is owned by LIRR), because the new lease deals had to be worked out before MTA would commit to rebuilding the terminal. All of the above was spelled out in excrutiating legal detail every month in the MTA real estate committee (board) agenda. I havent been to a planning and real estate committee meeting for a few years, so I dont know if it is still included.
Verrrry interesting! Thanks for the post.
I had assumed that because the City of New York split the costs with the LIRR for the massive grade elimination program along Atlantic Ave. (1906-1915) that the Flatbush branch was jointly owned by the City and LIRR.
Just curious, do you work for MTA/NYCT or LIRR? Sounds like you have some "inside" information.
Doug aka BMTman
Does all of this have anything to do with the RPA proposal to turn the Atlantic Branch into a subway line? Also, was the lease cut back to Flatbush Avenue when the tunnel down to the water was abandoned or does it still extend all the way to the foot of Atlantic Avenue?
If the lease does include the original waterfront LIRR route then it might affect the legalities of the BHRA's claims to that tunnel under Atlantic.
I still don't believe they'll turn the LIRR Flatbush Branch into a subway line since the A train already parellels most of that lines route by a difference of 3 city blocks.
Doug aka BMTman
BHRA?
Brooklyn Historic Railway Association (Bob Diamond)
I didn't know the BHRA made any legal claim to the tunnel itself.
It isn't like salvaging a sunken ship. I assume the City as owner of the street or the successor to the owner of the tunnel would be the owner of the tunnel today. If it is the City, they would have the right to designate BHRA as their representative, but I don't think they could give BHRA absolute control over it or convey it to them as property.
Consider this: suppose I were an Urban Archeologist who needed to do important first-hand research on the tunnel and I request access. For some reason, the BHRA says no. I would say they have no right to do that, just as the City couldn't give administration of the City Archives to a private agency who could pick and choose who has access.
I'm not an attorney, but am familiar with how these things work in the real world.
Yeah, I would assume the city has leased the tunnel to BHRA, since I would assume that the city owns the manhole and all subterreanian rights along the ROW.
Doug aka BMTman
10/04/99
While this mystery of Bedford Terminal has been brought up , how about the LIRR Atlantic branch tunnel pockets for a Franklin Shuttle connection ? Yes, they exist. When leaving Flatbush Ave Terminal on the LIRR look to your right before the train leaves the portal. The area is lit by lights and if looking out the front window , thus could be seen better. Seen are either one or two tunnel pockets turning off to the right. They look kinda narrow which would explain either one or two pockets. The location would be directly under the Franklin Shuttle. Also , now demolished and rebuilt , the old lattice work structure north of then Park Place station had some kind of steelwork jutting out suggesting possibly a connection of another track. If I'm wrong about my theory on this,please correct me.
Bill Newkirk
You're correct on all counts.
The original aligment in the area was (coming from geographic south) open cut to Park Place, then surface running with grade crossings to Bedford Terminal.
Then a ramp was built a couple of blocks north of Park Place to an elevated to connect with the Fulton Street L.
Finally, c.1903, the grade crossings in the vicinity of Park Place were eliminated when the recently-demolished structure was built. At that time, at least one track was retained to Bedford, but I'm not certain for how long.
Paul: The surface track on the east side of the embankment was intact until at least 1959 although I do not believe it was connected to the main tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/05/99
Paul,
It's nice to be right on some of not all counts once in a while. Well,how about those LIRR tunnel pockets? Are we talking joint LIRR/BRT service that never materializd?
Bill Newkirk
Not able to speak for Paul -- just for my historically-weak self -- I can say with some certainty that yes, those tunnel pockets in the walls of the Flatbush LIRR line were indeed a start of work that was never completed. And yes, it would have allowed LIRR trains to run to the Coney Island shore. This was during the Corbin years of the LIRR. And it may have also been prior to Corbin's Manhattan Beach RR that split from the Bay Ridge line and ran parellel to the Brighton to Sheepshead Bay (and then Manhattan Beach).
Doug aka BMTman
In the book "Change at Ozone Park" by Herbert George, on pgs 16-17 they talk about joint LIRR/BRT service. There was a flying junction at Chestnut St between the LIRR and the Bway El near the Bklyn/Queens border and there were trains that went from Delancey St over the Williamsburg to Rockaway Park until 1917. The flying junction was eventually eliminated. There was also a connection of the BRT with the LIRR at Flatbush Av LIRR terminal but closed it down in 1905 when they started to rebuild the station. On page 66 is a picture of a rapid transit style car used on the Rockaway Lines for joint LIRR/BRT service. It sort of looks like a Low-V. Unfortunately, nowhere in the book does i speak of any connection between the LIRR and the Franklyn Shuttle.
He doesn't talk about it because it was never built. As I mentioned in an earlier posting there was a portal that was started but that was all. It is along the eastbound side of the tunnel somewhere between Flatbush Ave. and Franklin Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm not sure is anyone has mentioned this since I haven't read all the messages on this thread, but there WAS a connection between the LIRR and the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island RR (today's Brighton line and Franklin Shuttle) at Franklin and Atlantic from 1878 to 1884. The connection allowed trains (both LIRR and BF&CI) to run from Coney Island to the LIRR's Flatbush Ave. terminal, as well as to Hunter's Point and east to LI. After Austin Corbin (who owned the Manhattan Beach line - the Brighton's main competitor) bought the LIRR in 1880, he did everything possible to discourage this service and it was not renewed when the agreement expired in 1884. The Atlantic Ave. line at this time was at street level, while I believe the BF&CI was in a shallow cut, which had to be made deeper so the LIRR locomotives would have enough clearance.
Bob, thanks. I think you have some of that info at your LIRR History webpage, am I right?
The question that's been thrown out recently is was there ever an attempt to make a connect between the LIRR and the Franklin/Brighton Line AFTER the grade elimination project (1915). Obviously, if there had been one it would've been a rather steep grade since LIRR trains were/are subway while the BMT was embankment.
Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
A possible connection was allowed for, but I've never seen (plans, public speculation, etc.) any indication that a new LIRR-Franklin Shuttle connection was seriously contemplated after 1900.
The LIRR still had service to Manhattan Beach into the '20s, which it abandoned. When the Atlantic Avenue Line was taken off the surface, there was no provision for a station at Bedford.
10/07/99
Paul,
We meet again ! I don't know if you have my 2000 New York City Subways calendar,but if you have a copy,check out the October 2000 photo. R-32's southbound entering the old Park Place station. Look at the lower left hand corner,you'll see that iron work jutting out suggesting a track connection to something! Now,was that something the LIRR or Bedford Terminal you spoke of. Sorry I don't have the capabilities to scan the photo.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, I don't have the calendar, so can't see the photo.
The ironwork you speak (remember I can't see it) depending on where it is and how it faces, could be remains of the temporary structure that aided in the c.1903 rebuilding that eliminated the last grade crossings in the area.
The last surviving connection from the Brighton Line to Bedford came from just south of old Park Place station and was on the surface, east of the structure.
Paul: Your 1903 date coincides with a 1910 track map that I have of the line and the only siding shown is the one for the Brewery at Consumers Park."This Buds for you."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,Are you looking at the ERA's "Tracks of New York"? I'll have to locate my copy--if so, the source is good but not always definitive. For example, Joe Brennan has effectively refuted its alignment of the old Park Ave Line at Brooklyn Bridge.
I've been trying to locate a post-reconstruction photo which would show the finished condition at Park Place but so far have not.
I've personally seen the street track I've mentioned at least as late as c.1960, maybe much later.
As to the connection, I believe it was Martin Schachne who told me he had seen the connection in existence.
Paul: I don't doubt that the track was still in place but the connection to a signalled main track being retained is unlikely.One track certainly was still there as late as 1958 and from the middle 60's onward I can't recall any connection. Still Marty was most knowledgeable about the system so he may have been right.
Larry,RedbirdR33
check out the October 2000 photo. R-32's southbound entering the old Park Place station. Look at the lower left hand corner,you'll see that iron work jutting out suggesting a track connection to something!
Bill, I got a copy of your Subways 2000 calendar. Very impressive! Several of the photos are nothing less than beautiful.
Anyway, the way grade crossing elimination at Park/Prospect Places went was like this: from just south of Park Place surface tracks were constructed (where they didn't already exist) outboard of the regular tracks. These tracks proceeded on the surface, then climbed temporary ramps adjacent to the previously existing Brighton/Fulton ramp to switch onto the elevated part of the structure south of Atlantic Avenue.
The original ramp was then eliminated, and the structure and new station at Park Place was built while Brighton trains used the outer tracks.
I see the photo in your calendar is looking north from the north end of Park Place toward Dean Street. Now that I see it, I recall that piece of steelwork from riding the shuttle.
Framkly, I'm having difficulty figuring out what the significance of that piece of structure is. Its location is where part of the temporary structure was, but I don't beieve it is part of it.
The original ballasted abutment shown in the foreground of your picture did not extend that far north in the original rebuild. I suspect it was part of the 1924 upgrade that made all stations long enough for 6-car B-types. So that piece of structure is probably in support of the station extension at that time.
10/10/99
Glad you liked the calendar Paul. There are back issues available of more photos you may have missed,unless you have these back issues. Any questions,click on "Bill Newkirk" in blue and E-mail me.
Bill Newkirk
The system is full of tunnel pockets and provisions for lines and connections that never materialized.
What I'm saying is that the connection was provided for, but I'm not sure the thinking got as far as specific routings.
Vincent Seyfried of the Long Island Brooklyn Historical Society would probably know, but I haven't been in touch with him for a year of Sundays.
Larry, I do recall that track visible into the '60s ... I suspect part of it might have survived to the current rebuild.
IIRC, Martin Schachne (for those who didn't know him, his memory went back to the late '30s or early '40s) told me he remembered the track connected.
Community pressure save this line from passing into history like the Culver Shuttle and Myrtle Ave. el. The only reason I liked this line was becuase it was so neglected a large part of the old structure remained, showing what it looked like many years ago. Now that' its virtually new, I have no desire to ride it, beyond one time to see what the rebuild looks like.
IF the bridge is coming down, why not build another 1 or 2 bases in the middle of the bridge? It sure beats the "building a new tunnel" or "build a new bridge" idea. Right?
Why bother? It's going to fall apart anyway. It's like trying to upgrade a 286 to a PentiumIII. Sure, you can (sort of) do it, but is it *really* worth all the hassle? Besides - those bases don't just appear there - SOMEONE has to build them, and that's *very* dangerous work.
And it doesn't solve the major problem of a bridge that's simply worm out. Yes, worn out. As it gets older and older, and accumulates more and more load/unload cycles, it gets more and more suceptable to fatigue (which was little more than a curiosity until the Commet jetliner accidents of the early 50's, so this bridge predates that science). Not to mention salt spray, pigeons, rust, inadequate protection, thermal variations, overweight trucks, snow, rain, etc. All weaken the bridge. How much the cycling is a problem is hard to say, but it's definantely NOT good for the bridge (paper clips don't get stronger if you bend them back and forth a lot, do they?).
And besides, a LOT has been learned about bridges over the last 50 years. Not to mention NYC could use a big change in the skyline :)
(though Trump seems to have that taken care of! On some level, I wish his world's tallest residential apartment would simply be the world's tallest building, and I know he HAS discussed the idea publicly before.)
It would pose an obstacle to navigation on the East River.
--Mark
With sub-talkers talking about the 2 different els on the Canarsie Line-a block away from each other on Van Sinderin & Sneidiker (one for each direction), I remember an old story of mine from when I was a little kid in the late 50's/early 60's. My grandmother was taking me to her house in Bklyn via the Hempstead Line. In those days the cars had full length cabs, some even after a mail or baggage area. (Some of those cars are the present day diesel cars)
The engineer usually let kids ride with him & look out the railfan window. (round porthole window) I was riding up front and at Country Life Press I saw the 2 tracks become single. I asked the engineer where the track for the opposite direction was and he answered with a straight face, two blocks that way and pointed west. He was so convincing I actually thought there were 2 CLP stations for years!!! When we came home I thought we were at the other station.
There was some sort of G.O. on Saturday on B4 track. They had a yellow strip placed along the pillars in the station keeping passengers on the side of the platform closest to B2 track. I don't think they were doing a movie because I didn't see any special lighting etc. The consist was:N-2922,2921,5134.5135,5137,5136-S.Thats right, six cars. If I can find the G.O., I'll have more details.
There must have been a reason for this lashup. 2921 and 22 are supposed to be a part of the Franklin Shuttle Car Assignments, aren't they?
-Stef
There won't be a Subway series because Texas will beat the Yankees in four games.Now what do the Yankee fans have to say?
Mike, getting a little ahead ain't we. As a Yankee fan since 1957, when my father changed my diapers in the old Yankee Stadium, as they say, it ain't over until the fat lady sings.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The fat lady is stuck in the elevator!
-Hank
As much as I hate the Yankees, even I realize they will probably demolish the Texas Rangers. The Yankees have a fairly easy ride to the World Series, since they've dominated both Cleveland and Texas. But if Boston beats Cleveland, then watch out ...
Texas beat the Yankees in post season play??? I guess they now think they can handle the Yankees - what a pity:-).
Wayne
Yeh right. Baseball Trivia Question What do the Minn Twins and the Texas Rangers Have In Common? Answer tomorrow if nobody gets it.Also what do the Yankees and St LOuis Browns Have In Common answer tomorrow?
First Question: Both used to be the Washington Senators. the original Senators moved to Minnesota in 1962 and the new Senators, formed later, moved to Texas in 1972.
The second question:
Before 1904 the team known since 1914 as the New York Yankees (they were the NY Highlanders 1904-14) were the original Baltimore Orioles. In the 1950s, the team that was the STL Browns became the modern Baltimore Orioles. Also, a LONG time ago, the Browns played in Milwaukee.
You win the prize,
The Yankees were the Baltimore Orioles until 1903, when they moved to NY and became the Highlanders.
The current Orioles were the St. Louis Browns until 1954.
Both the Texas Rangers and Minnesota Twins were once known as the Washington Senators, the first (Twins) until 1961; the second (Rangers) from 1961 until 1972.
Both 1961 expansion teams have moved and changed their names. Neither of them has ballbark access via subway.
The Athletics and the Braves are the only teams to have moved twice (thus, played in 3 cities) The atletics may become the first team to move 3 times, if a suspected move to Las Vegas occurs.
There may be yet another Washington Senators, if the Expos suggested move occurs.
Only the Expos would have subway access if they move to DC.
Now, where were the NBA Lakers, 76ers, Warriors, and Clippers originally from? What NHL team is the only one to ever have moved TO Canada?
-Hank
The "76'ers were the Syracuse Nationals from 1949 to 1965 (1955 NBA Champions) Owner Danny Biasone sold the entire team to the Philly group for $ 100,000.00 Wonder what today's '76ers are worth $$$$Hundred$ of billion$ $$$$
***ERROR*** The Nationals were sold in 1963 not '65
The Lakers-Minneapolis, 76-Syracuse Nationals, Warriors Philly, Clippers Started as the Buffalo Braves then San Diego, Houston came from San Diego. You forgot the Sac Kings originally the Rochester then KC then KC/Omaha/Back to KC Royals
The Atlanta Flames moved to Calgary.
OK, here's a football trivia question: both the Colts and Chiefs were in the same city at one time (not at the same time), and had the same nickname. What was the city and what was the nickname they had in common?
Here's another: in which city did the Rams start out?
And another: name three cities whose baseball and football teams shared the same nickname.
Who are the Portsmouth Spartans known as today? How about the Decatur Staleys?
The Rams were originally from Cleveland. The Colts were originally the AAFC Miami franchise, which moved to Baltimore and joined the NFL (oddity of oddities, the Colts played the Jets in Superbowl III, which was the first 'AFL-NFL Championship' to be billed as the 'Super Bowl', is now in the same AFC Division (post-merger) as the Jets) and then moved to Indianapolis in '84.
The Chiefs were originally the Dallas Texans, and as such were the champions of the AFL early on.
The only cities I can think of where the football and baseball teams shared a name are New York, with the Giants, and St. Louis, with the Cardinals.
-Hank
The only cities I can think of where the football and baseball teams shared a name are New York, with the Giants, and St. Louis, with the Cardinals.
You forgot Chicago: The Losers!
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
You forgot the New York Yankee and Brooklyn Dodger football teams (along with the Stapleton Stapes).
You know, I forgot about the New York Giants. Shame on me, being the football Giants fan that I am. Anyway, that is a fourth correct answer along with NY Yankees, Brooklyn Dodgers, and St. Louis Cardinals.
Before the Colts found themselves in Baltimore, they spent one season as the Dallas Texans. IIRC, before that, they were the NY Yankees. Norm Van Brocklin set a single-game passing record against the Yankees when he played for the LA Rams which still stands today.
Yes, the Kansas City Chiefs started out as the Dallas Texans. And yes, the Rams were originally in Cleveland. Ironically, they moved to LA right after winning the NFL championship in 1945.
I just thought of this: you can add Denver to the two-teams-with-the-same-nickname list, although they didn't exist at the same time. Before the Quebec Nordiques moved to Denver and became the Colorado Avalanche, there was an NHL franchise known as the Colorado Rockies, which became the New Jersey Devils in 1983. And, of course, our baseball team is also known as the Colorado Rockies. Don't let the "our" fool you; I will NEVER root against the Mets!
Even if RTD doesn't extend the proposed light rail Platte Valley Spur all the way to Coors Field, Union Station is three blocks away.
Actually, there were 2 NY Mets, as the city had an American Association (considered a major league in the late 1800's) team called the New York Metropolitians.
They played in the Polo Grounds with the New York Gothams (later Giants) of the NL. But these were actual grounds for Polo just north of Central Park.
Extra two to make up:
This is Avenue D
The next stop on this 4 will be Kings Highway
This is Kings Highway
The next stop on this 4 will be Flatlands Avenue-Ryder Square
This is Flatlands Avenue-Ryder Square
The next stop on this 4 will be Avenue N.
Yes, I do remember something about that.
BTW, the Portsmouth Spartans are now known as the Detroit Lions. The Decatur Staleys moved to Chicago and as part of that deal, kept the Staleys nickname for one year, then became the Bears.
Does anybody have a colored photo they can scan and e mail me of the following 1-Triplex Car on the Brighton, 1-Triplex and Standard together . I would appreciate it. I would like to put it up as my Screensaver. Thanks Bob
I have a 4 hour layover to change planes in Cleveland this coming Thursday. I know Cleveland RTA runs into the Airport, can someone give me their web site and what is a good station to take pictures of the heavy rail and light rail, and I can get back in time so I do not miss my flight.?
if you go one stop out on the airport line there is a lot a HEAVY(fright) rail action or there was. to see light rail you can go all to way downtown to termal tower. that might a little close on the timing. these info may be dated it been 6 years since been in cleveland
I found a schedule on the web, 18 minutes each way to Terminal Towerand when I get it it is early so frequent service. Thanks
On Friday, Nightline began a series on biological warfare. The first installment dealt with an anthrax attack on a subway(they showed both the DC Metrorail and BART, assuming no one knows the difference) and showed how easily an entire city could fall victim to something as simple as someone dropping a bottle onto a trackway.
It continues tomorrow. It's very interesting.
If I were to identify anything that might reverse the rebirth of NYC (and of mass transit), I'd have to say disease is the number one threat. It doesn't have to be biological warfare. It could be an epidemic of a non-curable disease. 60 minutes did a story on drug-resistant TB spreading out from Russia.
In the event of biological warfare or plague, people would be a little safer living in detached houses, working in isolated office parks, driving between them, and never going outside. They'd feel a lot safer. After all, it was the Black Death that wrecked the cities of the high middle ages.
If one is inclined to thinking of such things, you don't have to go back to the Black Death. The influenza (yes, the flu!) epidemic of 1918 killed millions of people over just a few months, including hundreds of thousands in the US. I saw a PBS documentary on this, and from the program and the website, I got the impression that people were staying in their homes and avoiding public assemblies and crowds as much as possible. Some cities closed theaters and schools, and many cities issued or required the wearing of gauze masks -- bizarre photos of people marching in Great War bond rallies, all wearing masks! It was only the war effort or similar vital or overarching needs that would get many people to go out in public at all. By the end of the epidemic, things were actually starting to break down: trains, ships, and other transportation rerouted or cut off in a futile attempt to block the disease's spread, workplaces shut down, vital services becoming intermittent due to lack of workers and unwillingness of remaining healthy workers to go out, etc.! Then the spread of the disease ended almost as abruptly as it began.
And before anyone else points it out, the 1918 epidemic was a contributing factor to the Malbone Street Wreck. The replacement motorman (Luciano?) had not only returned to work recently still weak from battling the flu, but was under the emotional strain of his daughter dying from the epidemic as well.
They did it is Tokyo not too long ago, someone could do it here
Not to scare anyone, but the U.S. Army has been called in to aid the CDC in trying to identify the particular virus that has been killing birds (and some people) in the NY area. End the CDC is unsure whether it is the St. Louis Encephalitis or the "West Nile-like" version. They are also concerned that spraying for Mosquitoes may not be the answer if in fact ticks are the carriers as has been recently rumored. Food for thought...
It was also on the NBC Nightly news with Tom Brokaw
I heard about that outbreak. Hope the mosquito problem subsides by the time I'm out there, if that turns out to be the cause of spreading.
Drug-resistant TB is popping up more and more these days.
Anyone run into delays on Manhattan bound 4 out of Grand Army Plaza this morning? What happened?? Appreciate your time!
I was on a #2 that left Flatbush Avenue around 9:30 AM. It took around an hour to get to Grand Army Plaza, at which point I gave up and went upstairs to take a B41 bus.
David
[Anyone run into delays on Manhattan bound 4 out of Grand Army Plaza this morning? What happened?? Appreciate your time!]
They announced that an earlier no. 4 had lost power near Franklin, causing the n/b express track to go out of service, with all 2,3,4,and 5 service to go local from Franklin to Atlantic. I was on the 8:20 Flatbush to Dyre 5 train; we didn't get to Grand Central till approx. 9:45.
subfan
As a student, I have a request to make of anyone who is willing to assist me with a project. I would like to locate someone with a long-standing association with NYC transit, either as a hobby or as a profession, to interview about their experiences and observations over a long period of time in the most detail they can provide. I'd prefer these interviews be taped, but since I don't want to inconvenience anyone, a written statement would be helpful. Anyone who is willing to help, please email me at dshansk1@ic3.ithaca.edu .
For you sportsfans of the Subway Series that would pit the Yankees against the Mets, be advised that this day (October 4) is the 44th (my favorite number) anniversary of the Brooklyn Dodgers only World Series win. Johnny Podres shut out the Yankees 2-0 on this date, so all us old Brooklyn fans-------it's time to celebrate a great occasion.
Subway Series Yankees 41, 47, 49, 52, 53, 56 Dodgers 55 that makes Yankees 6 Bums 1 and we won t go in to the Yankee Giants 1 stop series
For anyone in the WHYY-TV 12 viewing area, you'll be able to see me and some fellow classmates talking with John Street on 10/17 at 10am.
Just a little plug:)
I dont know if it is deliberate but I found an ERROR on every AMEX Ccard in my booth.
The card is designed to resemble an AMEX Card. The problem? the thing is printed upside down. (The promo cards still have the card number and the "White area" on the back) and you have to turn it upside down to read the "numbers on the AMEX Card"
OFFICIAL BULLETIN LIMITS A CUSTOMER TO THREE CARDS PER VISIT. (If you want more, go to the end of the line and then you are a new customer( yes- that is what the bulletin says!)
I read a novel within the last year, about a Motorman who was operating out of an IRT terminal in the Bronx. His wife left him, and he went on the skids. It was a really good book, and I've been wanting to recommend it to the people here, but I can't remember the title. I've searched the public library's catalog and can't find it. He ended up homeless with major problems. Anybody read it?? I even checked Amazon and they don't show it...
After all this fanfare, the Second Avenue Subway will be 2 track from Lexington and 63rd Street to 125th Street with 6 stops. Talking about going halfway. Hey, I have an idea. Connect the Second Avenue Subway to the Bronx and use the old 155th Street Shuttle right of way. then we can find out what's really in the tunnel under those apt. buildings.
After all this fanfare, the plan is to STUDY a short subway NOT BUILD IT. MORE STUDY and a few holes will cost $700 million. If we could really get PHASE I done in this capital plan, I would be happy, and have some hope for PHASE II.
The $700 million is for design and construction, not study and construction. The study (MESA) is finished.
David
[After all this fanfare, the plan is to STUDY a short subway NOT BUILD IT. MORE STUDY and a few holes will cost $700 million. If we could really get PHASE I done in this capital plan, I would be happy, and have some hope for PHASE II.]
I really hate the fact they are excluding 2nd Avenue and 125th Street where there's a big housing development there? Which leads me to see a crosstown 125th Street Line.
125th Street and Lexington Avenue will require passengers to walk three levels. That's really foolish.
Does anyone have any recently-expired MDTA Metropasses from Miami, Florida, that he/she/they would be willing to trade for a few MTA New York City "MetroCards"? If so, you can email me at MUNI@maestro.com, and we can exchange mailing addresses.
Andres Greene aka CityRail
Chantal, I'm sorry that you did not approve of my response to the posting made (allegedly by your friend), about the supposed racist train operator. I find the fact that you wrote to me privately somewhat presumptuous considering that I chose a public forum to vent my opinion. Even more so, saying that "If I were a minority..." was also very presumptuous since you do not know me at all. As a matter of fact I am a minority and I do know very well what it's like to be a minority. I also know what it's like to be hated for the color of my skin and my religion. However, despite the fact that we disagree, I'm not going to assume that you are a racist. I'll give you the benifit of the doubt and assume that you have some growing to do.
As for the issue at hand, your friend called the train operator a RACIST. He offered no proof but made the charge. All he could do to justify his charge was say that the train operator objected to the behavior of the three young men, behavior that obviously occurred before he boarded the train. He had no idea of what had preceded his boarding but based on no facts at all, decided that the train operator (with tuna breath) was a racist and wrong. He also decided that the T/O was a racist for calling control center despite the fact that TA Rules require all unusual occurrances to be documented. Let us not let facts get the way of our condemnations.
Frankly, I'm sick and tired of people throwing that term around. I've even heard some say that people of color, because of their standing in society, can not be racist. I think you and your friend had better re-evaluate your value system and how you evaluate events. If you think that calling a possibly innocent man a racist, makes up for past injustice to people of color, shame on you. It makes as much sense as it did to acquit O.J.Simpson because Mark Fuhrman is a racist.
Now, you can show my posting in your sociology class if you wish. Just show the original posting too. Might as well give all the facts, right? I don't think that the sentiment would be as overwhelming as you seem to think. As for the personal attack on my intelligence, what can I say. After all, you are the college student. But one must question why you E-mailed me privately to defend your friend and his public posting. Surely he didn't need to enlist someone so intelligent as you to tell me off.
I don't know what passed between you and Ms. Dyer, nor do I remember your original posting, but you seem to have crafted a balanced response.
There are actual racists in the world, but it is a phrase thrown about very carelessly. Maybe the T/O in question was one, but he is not on the forum to defend himself.
College is a place where we often analyze people, events and society with great depth, precision and certainty, before the real world confuses us with reality.
Well said, Paul!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[College is a place where we often analyze people, events and society with great depth, precision and certainty, before the real world confuses us with reality.]
College students like Chantal Janine Dyer should spend less time on philosophical thinking and more time preparing themselves for "real world" life after graduation. In particular, they should be exercising their wrists so they'll have an easier time flipping burgers at McDonald's.
Actually, Columbia is a great school or perhaps it was a great school. Unfortunately college students forget that they are in school to learn how to think and forget that they really do not have all the answers. Such is the case with Ms. Dyer. Proof is that she thinks that her sociology class might find me interesting. Well as I always like to say, "Everyone has a purpose in life, even if it's to serve as a poor example."
[Actually, Columbia is a great school or perhaps it was a great school.]
Maybe, but a CS or EE degree from Moose Valley State College will get you a whole lot farther (and richer) than a sociology degree from Columbia.
Or even Whatsamatta U. (grin)
Hey, Rocky!! Watch me pull a rabbit out of my hat!!
Don't forget skvirrel and moose! And Boris, darling.
Be-heh-heh-heh!
What do you expect from a Liberal Arts major?
[What do you expect from a Liberal Arts major?]
Not much.
I'm sure I'm not the only one wondering. Whats OPWN????? !!!!!
Whats OPWN????? !!!!!
A character in Star Wars, IIRC.
Jeff, that was not my lack of a Columbia University education showing. Actually the word is OPEN The E is right next to the W on my keyboard. not a spelling error, just a typing error.
as a one time history major at a definitely liberal arts school--you might expect a subway general trainfan who reads French and is interested in the history of the Byzantine Empire among others...
A recent post by Steve reminded me of a question I've been meaning to ask. When you read a post, and the person's name is in blue, that means you can get his e-mail address by clicking on his name. Why are some names in blue and others not? Is it basically anyone who has an e-mail address will come through in blue?
Second question. What is the etiquette of contacting someone using his e-mail address? There are times when I have something to say that is not really related to transit ( about 95% of the time ) that I would consider contacting the person via e-mail and only irritating him with my silliness. If someone would not want to be contacted through his e-mail address, can he have his address suppressed. I generally feel like I'm invading someone's personal space by using e-mail and will usually say that I hope it is not a bother.
If it's a bother, then we wouldn't put up our addy's. Now would we? Me, mail as much as you want. Harold? Leave him alone. It's an individual thing.
I'm still not clear on the mechanism for a person's name appearing in blue.
Also over the last two weeks on the BusTalk side of the tracks there was a rather heated exchange going on in public that was painful and at times scary to witness. Sometimes, I wonder if it would be better for people who feel personally attacked to take it off the board. Sometimes being out in the public only raises the temperature and prolongs the troubles.
A person's name appears in blue if they've made an entry in the "E-Mail Address" box.
To illustrate, I took my e-mail address out of the box, and my name should appear in black.
See?
OK
I've written directly to Sub-talkers to reply to a question anytime I thought the topic wasn't transit related.
If you don't want your email address to show, leave the box titled "E-Mail Address" under "Post a New Response" blank. Then your name will not appear in blue, and noone can contact you.
If you want to contact someone who has posted an e-mail address, I would say you should feel free to do so. Tell the person upfront where you got the address (on the Subtalk forum pertaining to "x" subject) and why you are writing.
If the person isn't interesting in responding, they just won't. No need to take it personally--onbiously you wouldn't pursue it any further. If they do respond, the quality of the response will tell you whether they're interested in continuing the conversation.
At least, that's my experience.
Agreed. Sometimes there's a reason why a person can't post an email address too - until I bought the new Mac earlier this year I did all my posting from the office (lunchtime, after business hours, etc.) but didn't want to publish that address. Now I do my posting from home (or from the office network when I'm travelling) and I post my home email address. Kind of like my handle - I created it because I was posting from work and now, since most everyone knows me that way, I see no reason to change it. (Besides, I think it's kind of neat!)
I'm almost always glad to converse on a variety of subjects off the board, so feel free to write. If I don't respond right away it may be because I'm travelling or simply because I'm too busy at the moment, but you'll eventually hear from me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't contact me. Im on my laptop at Jay Street.
Let me give my opinion on the subject. I really enjoy Subtalk. From it, I get anywhere from 5 to 20 E-Mails daily from it. Most are friendly. Occassionally one or two are not. One has even lead to a Criminal (Bias) case in my home county. Most are people who want info or want to discuss things in detail that may not be of interest to the majority. I've even enjoyed meeting some of those who have E-mailed me. On the whole, it's been very rewarding.
As to this particular E-Mail, I took it back to Subtalk for several reasons. First, this person is not a Subtalker. She purports to be the friend of the original poster - who has gone suddenly mute. She has attacked me personally, not my point of view but my tollerence and my intelligence. She's made certain assumptuions that she has no basis to make. I do not feel that this E-Mail is a natural extension of a thread on Subtalk. I, therefore, do not feel obliged to keep it private. I hope that she (or her 'friend') see my response as I do not plan to respond to her privately.
Hey Paul. The only way your EMail gets put on the message (in blue) is if you put it where it says E-Mail address below your name and above subject. You probably don't remember but you must have put it in on your 1rst posting and the memory (cookies) keeps carrying it each time you go to subtalk. If you delete the E-Mail address on your next posting it will appear in black with no link to your E-Mail. Now the following wav is for you, Paul!!
Thanks Sarge, but I wish you didn't put them up publicly. I wouldn't want people to know about my interest in the Stooges, even though many people think I am one of the Stooges. Yeah I didn't realize about the cookies and stuff. I just noticed my name in blue one day, and thought that someone realized I was depressed.
Reasons for encouraging direct e-mail responces:
1. Many of us, like me, work somewhere in the system. As Steve said you can get two kinds of replies from folks, i.e. good & bad.
I've made a few employee friends who I can bounce work related questions off of. I recently got a FAX of a TA document that went to a VP because the sect. thought it was official business vs. just my curiosity.
2. Several times fellow SubTalkers have corrected me off-line, that was real nice of them to do it that way.
3. Also said here, you may want to go way off topic. Also I'm a MetroCard collector ... the group doesn't mind some general announcements, but the site is no place for trading transactions.
4. The only negitive is that some nuts want to insult you off line, but as Steve said the positives generally out weigh the negitives.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston put it very well. E-mail has the gteat feature called by various names: Delete, Trashcan, garbage can, etc.
I too get much transit related e-mail. Some get deleted, some get deleted UNREAD, and some I choose to respond.
I e-mail many people on this board and find them to be considerate and educated people( I did not say "Schooled"). I have gotten crank e-mails and they went straight to the trash.
I do read my e- mail daily and respond. I have been contacted by members of the mass media and granted m,any requests for information.
With the exception of the "big Kids" most sub-talkers are a great group of people.
A good example of this is this: When I went down to the Fifth Ave Book Fair last week, and met Brian Cudahy, he gave me his card with his email, home address, and home phone #. Now, I emailed him a note and he wrote me a nice note back;BUT - I hesitate in putting it out here on the board,because I really didn't ask if was okay or not,and would feel funny doing so. Now, I gave it to Dave P., because him and Mr Cudahy might have business to discuss, but that has been the extant of it...I feel its just like a phone number: if someone has given you their phone number, they want you to call!
I recently found out something interesting regarding online anonymity. As many of us might recall, there was a recent thread about "Commuter X" and her I Hate the LIRR site. Ms. X, if we can call her that, keeps her identity secret, not even revealing it during a newspaper interview (the one that showed her picture, from the rear). Yet by going to www.networksolutions.com and doing a "whois" search on www.ihatethelirr.com, I was able to discover her name, address, and telephone number.
Doesn't a person have to register with such a service in
order to be listed? That is, if you don't register you
can't be found.
[Doesn't a person have to register with such a service in
order to be listed? That is, if you don't register you
can't be found.]
Network Solutions is the domain-name registry for the United States. As far as I know (someone please correct me if I'm wrong), if you want to register a domain name, as in www.myname.com, you have to provide an address and telephone number. This information is available to anyone who does a whois search. I recall reading that a few years ago, when the Web was still young, several celebrities started their own sites and found out later that their top-secret addresses and telephone numbers were accessable to the public.
First, people's names in blue are the ones who typed in their e-mail address when making a post/reply to post. Seems to me if someone doesn't put an e-mail address their, no blue will show. So, you can't just "click" on the name and contact them via direct e-mail.
Now-- regarding your question as to "ettiquette" of contacting someone via e-mail: I feel that if someone posts their e-mail address, or gives you their e-mail address, that they are saying it's okay to contact them via e-mail.
I don't feel e-mail is all THAT personal as giving out someone's phone number or address. Nobody's gonna come knocking at your door at 2;30 a.m., or ringing your phone then either -- you can read/reply to your e-mail at your leisure. You can always delete it without reading it. And many of us can "killfile" any sender than sends stuff we don't want to receive. You wanna send me e-mail, I don't mind. But if it starts to become a bother, I just put sender's address in the killfile and don't ever have to deal with it. It's a LOT simpler than someone having your home address or your telephone number.
Yeah, like telemarketers.
I have received private emails from several regular Subtalkers, and with the exception of one or two messages, have always responded promptly. Nearly all had a friendly tone to them, and I enjoy the correspondance. In short, I have no objection if someone wants to contact me privately. I don't take offense if no response is received, and hope the feeling is mutual if I don't reply.
I think in the case i raised, my objection was that the author of the E-mail was not a person on Subtalk. She introduced herself as a friend of Paul S. (the original poster about the racist train operator). I post my E-mail address on Subtalk because I welcome all messages (well almost all) from Subtalkers. However, this person is not a Subtalker and so I viewed her E-mail as an unwanted intrusion. Nit-picking?. perhaps. But those are my feelings. Incidently, there have been no further private messages from Paul or Chantal. I was hoping to find out how well I did in her Sociology class.
No. 6 train @ 23rd St. station was featured on the show last night.
Everything looked real. Anybody else see it?
Chuck Greene
eventually they would get it right
Yup, first time I heard them call the dispatcher as "CENTRAL" too...
While my wife was flying to Nevada on Friday morning to help our older daughter with her new baby I was headed to Staunton, Virginia to attend Parents' Weekend at our younger daughter's college. Train 79, the Carolinian, was ten minutes late into Newark but wasn't nearly as crowded as it sometimes has been. It maintained a pretty good pace to Washington, filling up nearly to capacity at Wilmington but emptying significantly at BWI. Train 51, the Cardinal, left Washington on schedule at 11:20 AM with a good crowd in the Superliner coach. I had eaten a light lunch in Washington Union Station prior to boarding, as I didn't know there would be an open diner on the train (last November they had one but it was restricted to sleeping car passengers). More people boarded at Alexandria, mostly sleeping car passengers making a cross-platform transfer from train 92 (the Silver Star, running behind schedule as usual. The next stop was Manassas, where many more people boarded; the Superliner was nearly full. Among the passengers who boarded was a young man carrying only a briefcase who seemed rather nervous. He stashed the briefcase in the overhead rack across the aisle from me and disappeared quickly into the pseudo-dome car ahead. Once the conductors had made their rounds, he appeared back in my coach, sitting in various different seats until such time as their rightful occupants returned and he had to move on. Every time a conductor appeared he headed in a different direction. At Culpeper station he disappeared for a while but reappeared a few miles later, sitting in a seat that belonged to a family group headed for White Sulphur Springs. When they returned the adults confronted him (he had been in another one of their seats, in the row behind, earlier) while the two children disappeared in opposite directions, each returning a minute later with a conductor in tow. The conductors quickly escorted him downstairs, but from what discussion took place before they did I have to assume that he hadn't troubled himself to obtain a ticket prior to boarding. He was last seen in the company of two police officers on the platform in Charlottesville, his briefcase in the custody of one of the officers. Between Culpeper and Charlottesville, and also from there to Staunton, we were periodically affected by slow orders (15 mph) due to the danger of flash flooding, and indeed there were fields covered by water quite close to the tracks. Even with all of that, however, the train was only 20 minutes late into Staunton, as the engineer made up time where he could (we were a rockin' and a swayin' as we headed up and down the mountain - we were doubleheaded, unusual for the Cardinal when it doesn't have mail, and those big monsters were playing Alco - I would have loved to be in the lead sleeper with a camera).
The return trip on Sunday was interesting - first time I've ridden train 94, the Old Dominion. Amtrak's schedule for the Cardinal and connections on the Corridor doesn't get passengers to Newark until after the last NJCL train has departed for the evening, so my daughter took me to Richmond (just over 100 miles each way) to catch 94. We were at the station about an hour early, and watched 92 pull in about 10 minutes late. It was delayed there for some reason and didn't leave until it was nearly 45 minutes behind. 94 was right on its heels, and we left within 5 minutes of our scheduled departure. At Lorton I observed the nearly-completed new turntable for the Auto Train equipment. We left DC less than 10 minutes late and caught 92 at Philadelphia. It pulled out nearly simultaneously and was put ahead of us, but when we approached Trenton they put it in the hole and allowed us to enter the station first. We managed to stay ahead of it, even with our stop at Metropark (which 92 doesn't make) and arrived in Newark about 20 minutes behind schedule and about 10 minutes before 92. 94 was packed all the way from Richmond, emptying significantly at Washington but filling up again with new passengers. From Baltimore north there were many standees, despite 94 being an all-reserved train (many passengers holding unreserved tickets, not valid on 94, had boarded anyway). The regular coaches were refurbished Northeast Direct, tight seating but with electrical outlets, which came in handy as I was called on a business matter and was able to plug my laptop in rather than having to rely on its battery. They also only had one cafe car on the train, as far as I could tell, and when I first tried to get a snack the line was at least 40 people long. (There were still half a dozen people in line when I went back around 3 PM, desperate for a Pepsi - at least they had stocked well for the number of customers they had.)
The return down the NJCL was also interesting - we were held at Woodbridge for 25 minutes because a preceding train had "hit some debris on the tracks". Not sure what the debris was but it must have been substantial, as there were three city-bound trains right behind each other from Perth Amboy to South Amboy - and on Sunday it's hourly service.
Anyway, if the patronage level I observed this weekend is any indication, Amtrak is certainly a success with the riding public. And the other moral of the story is: if you're taking 94, spring the extra few bucks for business class. Your legs will thank you!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You know this flipping of burgers image sounds familiar. I think that was an image that heated up things on BusTalk last week.. Speaking of the real world---if SubTalk is an example of the real world there are times where I have failed and others here have failed to look at issues fairly or seriously. I mean I goof around here with some of my screw ball ideas. And I think some of the up and back about the Mayor has shed more heat than light , and I am no great admirer of him. I'm not a great admirer of the college academic who blows off his hot air theories. But sometimes you can get some light on an issue that in the real world just generates heat. Putting my little bit of hot air blow-off aside, the hamburger flipping image is really loaded and dangerous.
Yes, the image burger flipping can be inflamatory. That's why some people like to use it. One of my counterparts is fond of telling employees that if they question his instructions, likely they'll wind up asking "Would you like that super-sized?"
However, while it may be inflamatory to project that 'burger flipping' image, it is equally inflamatory for those in college to suppose that they are automatically more insightful or more intelligent than the rest of 'us'. In the case of Ms. Dyer (my new best buddy and fan) I'm not overwhelmed that she is in Columbia University and I'm not impressed by her threat to discuss my posting in her sociology class. The truth is that they'd likely find me somewhat less than unique. Her fascinating character study of a 'neanderthal civil servant' would likely turn out to be a large yawn. Afterall, most of us go to college - even if it's only the 13th grade. So while I may not really like that image of 'flipping burgers', sometimes it helps remind those soaring college students of how really close to the ground, they are.
The problem is college is so "popular" that it's almost become mandatory. For instance, a local pharmacy hires only college students to work there. So what is happening is they are so busy studying, and their life at college, that they don't show up for work half the time.
Perhaps if the pharmacy had hired just regular people, who have gotten laid off from retail jobs before who just need a job, they wouldn't have these problems. People (and employers) should stop frowning on people who don't go to college. College isn't for everybody.
Not going to college doesn't mean they can't function at a mid-level job. Heck, even radio stations now will only hire DJ's with college experience/in college currently. What the hell does that have to do with spinning records?
I just hope the TA won't start preferring college students for driving buses, or running trains,etc. College is a place for go getters and over-achievers, the rest of us shouldn't need to go there to earn decent living.
I doubt any radio stations still employ recordosauri.
Maybe not records - they're using CDs and the occasional tape nowadays - but the job still exists. I occasionally listen to Y107.1 and they're definately not using a remote feed (except Sunday AM), nor does New Jersey 101.5 on those rare occasions when they do play music instead of nonstop yap.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Y107 is actually a multicast (they transmit from several different locations on the same frequency (call letters WWXY, WYNY, WWZY), hoping to cover a large geographic area) There was a story in today's daily news about consolidation in the radio industry, and that while syndicated programs are growing, they don't expect the 'death' of the local DJ.
-Hank
So can you really get fired for _questioning_ directions? (in a non emergency situation...)
I don't follow BusTalk so I haven't been exposed to what's floating in the air over there, but the burger-flipping image isn't too far from reality for a lot of college students these days. Only those who apply themselves with extreme dedication will be able to find degree-related employment in the more esoteric fields, such as sociology. And, for that matter, only those who apply themselves will be able to find decent jobs period. This past weekend I attended Parents' Weekend at Mary Baldwin College, a small liberal-arts college for women in Staunton, Virginia. My younger daughter is a senior there. The college is, in many respects, a traditional Southern "finishing school" for young women in search of husbands first and an education second, but it does have an excellent academic reputation and can also boast of two programs that distinguish it from other schools of its ilk: the Virginia Women's Institute for Leadership, a military-prep program similar to that of VMI, and the Program for the Exceptionally Gifted, which recruits the brightest young women from around the country to attend college early by skipping some or all of high school. The young women in the PEG program are admitted based not only on their academic abilities, as measured by SAT scores and grades, but also based on their apparent maturity. My daughter is a member of that program; she entered at age 14 in August 1996, becoming a freshman in college rather than a freshman in high school. The year she entered there were 23 freshmen; six of those 23 remain at MBC. Five left during the first two years for a variety of academic and personal reasons; eleven transferred to other, larger colleges after their sophomore year; one departed at the end of her junior year after a major violation of the Honor Code. Five of the six PEGs remaining in the class of 2000 are planning to attend graduate or professional school next fall (my daughter is in the process of applying to law school); one is planning to take an additional year of undergraduate study abroad before going on to grad school. These six girls, along with their VWIL colleagues, all have a clear and demonstrated dedication to their education and their future. But many of the students there do not. As I attended the day's events I had many opportunities to hear what different students (both traditional and PEG) had to say, mostly to each other in conversations going on around me but some that I talked to while waiting for my daughter at different points during the day. I was struck by how little a grasp on reality many of these girls have. Some have no concept of what things cost; others are sure they have all the answers to everything in life. One in particular that struck me was a freshman, seated behind me in the hall where the Founder's Day program was to be held, talking to her mother and her mother's significant other. It seems that she is already making plans to transfer to UVA after the end of her first year so she can move in with her boyfriend, a sophomore there, once his divorce is final. It was also telling that the speaker at Founder's Day, a member of the class of '73, asked the seniors for a show of hands about their plans post-graduation. 50% responded "I don't know", 10% responded "grad school", 10% responded "work", and fully 30% responded "get married". Looks like a lot of burger-flippers to me.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[I don't follow BusTalk so I haven't been exposed to what's floating in the air over there, but the burger-flipping image isn't too far from reality for a lot of college students these days. Only those
who apply themselves with extreme dedication will be able to find degree-related employment in the more esoteric fields, such as sociology. And, for that matter, only those who apply themselves will
be able to find decent jobs period.]
College students frequently are stricken with the "it-can't-happen-to-me" syndrome. Too many of them cling to the belief that they'll somehow manage to get high-paying jobs even though they're studying what are essentially unmarketable subjects and even though they've heard about all their predecessors who are struggling to survive in the job market. I suppose it could be a matter of simple maturity - or the lack thereof. While I'm sure there are many level-headed college students who are more mature than the average adult, in my experience they're relatively few and far between. It might not be a bad idea for young people to spend a year or two working in the "real world" before going on to college. High school to college might be too abrupt a transition for many people. Heck, it was for me, almost 25 years ago.
Yeah, what does a person with a degree in Economics do after graduation. Either teach high school or manage a maintenance facility for a major NY City subway system......
[Yeah, what does a person with a degree in Economics do after graduation. Either teach high school or manage a maintenance facility for a major NY City subway system......]
LOL. Seriously, though, economics isn't what I'd call an unmarketable college major. I recall hearing that an advanced degree in economics is actually better than an MBA in terms of getting well-paying jobs. I was thinking more about the resolutely non-technical fields like literature, history, and political science (and law school, which largely has become an extension of liberal arts college).
Peter, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for stating that law school is largely an extension of liberal arts college, seeing as how my daughter is in the process of applying. Certainly there's a lot of logic and critical thinking involved in the law, and those skills also form the basis of much liberal arts education, but beyond that what are the similarities?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Peter, I'd be interested in hearing your reasons for stating that law school is largely an extension of liberal arts college, seeing as
how my daughter is in the process of applying. Certainly there's a lot of logic and critical thinking involved in the law, and those
skills also form the basis of much liberal arts education, but beyond that what are the similarities?]
Mainly in the sense that law school attracts many technophobic types. There's no math, no science, and little computer use. Law school is therefore seen as a "refuge" for some people with liberal arts backgrounds. Obviously, many people go to law school for entirely different reasons, but the technophobic factor is an important one.
I'm not saying your daughter should change her career plans, but while there's still time she should do some careful investigating as to the job opportunities she'll have after law school. One thing to keep in mind is that all of these "have you been injured?" ads by lawyers wouldn't be there if the competition weren't so intense.
International law, probably human-rights oriented - interestingly enough, while many students headed in that direction have the "cause" first and see law as a way to help, she was law-oriented first and found her cause second.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So many people go into law school with specific intentions, hoping to do very exciting things. Then they come out HEAVILY in debt, right when they want to start families, and have to get to work as a corporate lawyer. Its the world famous law school trap.
I am a graduate student in chemistry. A lot of people end up here because they do not know what else to do. The only difference is that we are not afraid of math, and our job prospects are better. But they may be better with a masters than a PhD. But if you want to make money, graduate school (maybe not professional school) is about the worst way to get there. The only reason someone should be going for an advanced degree is if they really really want to learn the subject. Sure, make sure you can get a job with that degree, but its a stupid way to try to make money.
In my daughter's case there's also the issue of age. She is a senior in college but is only 17 years old. For her to go out with a BA (in psychology, double minor in political science and philosophy) and try to get a job at that age would be nearly impossible. She's interested in international law, and scored a 169 on the LSAT (98th percentile), hence her choice of direction. Three schools have already written offering her admission and she hasn't even applied (and isn't interested in those particular schools either) so I would have to assume that, at least in her case, the job prospects will be excellent, assuming that she continues to perform at the current level (and I see no reason why she wouldn't).
I have to agree with you about the value of a regular advanced degree for most people, though. I did graduate work in history and library science and where did that get me? To a job carrying a toolbag for IBM (later retrained as a programmer, evolving into a project manager) and a sixteen-year career there that ended in the downsizing of '94. Now I work for a major telecommunications firm as a project manager, still getting additional training on the job, learning as I go (and having a blast, I might add - a much better company to work for than IBM was during my last few years there). I still enjoy history, though, although nowadays it's transportation and engineering history rather than colonial American history that I read.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[So many people go into law school with specific intentions, hoping to do very exciting things. Then they come out HEAVILY in debt, right when they want to start families, and have to get to work as a corporate lawyer. Its the world famous law school trap.]
Actually, the trap's often even worse - the graduates *can't* get jobs as corporate lawyers (or any other kind). Consider that the state of Connecticut hires law school graduates as per diem courtroom clerks. It's a lousy job by any standards; it pays $77 per day (unchanged in 10 years), no benefits except for health insurance after six months, no pay for holidays (and courts take plenty of holidays), no sick days, no vacation days. Maximum earnings under these circumstances don't much exceed $18,000 per year. It must be a nightmare to fill these jobs in today's low-unemployment economy, right? Guess again. The courthouses have absolutely no shortage of applicants, by no means all of whom are recent graduates. You'd be surprised at the number of experienced attorneys who beg for one of these garbage jobs, frequently after their legal practices fail.
I'll come right out and say something - any person contemplating law school is making a big mistake, unless he or she has been admitted to one of the Top Ten law schools (U.S. News lists these every year). There are just so many other marketable things to study, that law school is a costly blunder.
I've often asked myself that question: am I really better off with a master's degree? Quite frankly, so far my answer has been no, which is why I never pursued it. Had I stayed in the education field, which I left 12 years ago, I probably would have. As it stands, I like to say I'm a musician who had to get a job in the real world. I didn't want to spend the rest of my life waiting for the phone to ring every day with another teaching assignment, and many school districts have cut music programs. Plus discipline has gone down the tubes in many schools. Music is still my first love (next to the subway, of course), and I've never put my drumsticks and timpani mallets away since leaving college. And I never get tired of talking about music and subways.
In the words of Yogi Berra, I came to a fork in the road and took it.
I do agree that those who major in things like Philosophy or Ancient Civilizations will not have as many job possiblities as more "mainstream" career majors.
Doug aka BMTman
I was thinking more about the resolutely non-technical fields like literature, history, and political science (and law school, which largely has become an extension of liberal arts college).
Political science its uses: consider groups like the Rand Corporation, political think-tanks, the diplomatic corps, the CIA, and other intelligence gathering bodies. Having a good understanding of government practices is very useful when it comes to estimating exactly what country XYZ will do next.
Even sociology grads can find jobs as social workers....
If you want to see really useless degrees, look no further than anthropology, history, and anything prefixed with BFA.
[[I was thinking more about the resolutely non-technical fields like literature, history, and political science (and law school, which largely has become an extension of liberal arts college).]
[Political science its uses: consider groups like the Rand Corporation, political think-tanks, the diplomatic corps, the CIA, and other intelligence gathering bodies. Having a good understanding of
government practices is very useful when it comes to estimating exactly what country XYZ will do next.]
Most places like that prefer technical or possibly business degrees. That's not to say that political science coursework, or even a double major, is bad, but it's not enough by itself.
[Even sociology grads can find jobs as social workers....]
Probably not without going on for a MSW (which can be done without a sociology undergrad degree).
Maybe if we taught history better, we need fewer sociologists...
Or a person with an Education degree-- working as a Station Agent, trying to educate customers about no trains due to G.O. or WHat is $1.50?
I do enjoy working for NYCT- even the strange customers. If I wrote a book it would probably be rejected as stranger than fiction.
You have an education degree? So do I. Where did I wind up? Customer service. What does that entail? Educating people for the most part.
It was for my older son also. He struggled through his freshman year at Duke last year. Now, he's taking a semester, or possibly a year, off, working as a newspaper reporter for a chain of small-town local papers. The pay is lousy but the experience is great. Hopefully, he'll grow up too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
heypaul,
I may not flip burgers, but I have been known to flip the bird ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Rim shot! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
HeyPaul,
What does this have to do with subways or mass transit in general ?
There should be some tie in, especially if your STARTing a thread !
My posting came out of a concern about what I saw ahead right on the tracks of SubTalk. I think I have seen you post on BusTalk, and I felt we were moving in a direction that BusTalk experienced over the last two weeks centered on whether it was Nova or TMC built a certain series of buses. There were some misunderstandings or understandings of what was said that caused a lot of nastiness. I think we need to keep an eye out on our own tracks here. Paul
With all the bickering in SubTalk about politics, mayors, burger flipping, college, baseball, etc.-everything except transit, doesn't anyone realize today 10/4/99 is EXACTLY thirty years since the last "Q type" car ran down Myrtle Avenue to Jay Street!!!! And there is less than 10 minutes left in the day. celebrated by going down to my basement and looking at the cane seat I stole borrowed from the train that day and read my Newsday article of the following day (the 5th) with its full spread pictures.
Jeff,
Let's see if my memory serves me correctly: The article in Newsday (on the front page) for the demise of the Myrtle Ave el read on the front page: "Today the Myrtle Ave el goes," (separated by a picture of the el) "Under the el, traffic etc" (followed by another picture of traffic under the el including a city bus).
BTW, LIU ran a nice illustrated article in their magazine just before the demise of the el, anyone out there have a copy?
MIke H
Sarge, was that section of the el from Broadway down to Jay Street known for being able to look from the train's windows into people's apartments along the way. I seem to remember that it ran very close to people's windows. Hey I'm going to put a post up What's your Favorite Elevated Line, Past or Present, for Peeping into other people's lives? And what was the Most Remarkable thing you ever saw and can write about for public viewing ?
IIRC, not any more than any other el such as the remaining Myrtle N of Bway or the Bway El itself.
October 3rd, 1963 (or 1961?): Demolition of the late, great Pennsylvania Station began.
--Mark
1963. When I saw the first pictures I cried.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
To this day I REFUSE to get of a train in the basement of a sports arena.
To destroy Pennsylvania Station is one of the greatest crimes against culture of the 20th Century.
Also, I cried the tear for the end of the era of Wooden cars and Iron Men.
YES! The only Penn Station in the NYC area is in NEWARK. Any rail services I need will be done at Flatbush Avenue, Jamaica, Newark, Hoboken or Grand Central. DOWN WITH MADISON SQUARE GARBAGE (BTW, that's what I call the basement station too).
It was just as big a mistake to retire the Triplexes when they did. I know the reason given was fleet standardization, but to send equipment to slaughter when it was still running great is beyond me.
If the excuse was fleet standardization, why did they start buying 75 foot cars only 6 years later?
The idea there was 8 75-footers would be the service equivalent of 10 60-footers. Fewer trucks per train, fewer cars for the same train length = reduced maintenance costs. On the flipside, it meant fewer doors per train which slowed down loading and unloading, and having to ensure these cars could operate on existing lines, which meant shaving tunnel catwalks on curves.
I understand the benefits of 75 foot cars, but if standardization was the excuse for retiring the Triplexes, then buying those 75 foot cars defeats that purpose. There must have been another reason as to why they were retired.
It could be that the TA looked at the Triplexes as being nonstandard because they were articulating units. At the time they were withdrawn from service, in 1965, 60 feet was considered the standard length for a subway car on the IND and BMT, BMT standards notwithstanding.
Being that as it may, I'm still sticking by my guns that the TA's decision to yank the Triplexes when they did was a big mistake. They could easily have gotten another 10-15 years of service out of them.
And the line they wanted to close in the 90's, the Franklin shuttle survived. Good. Because today we know about the benefits of electric transit better than we knew 30 years ago. On 10/4/69, nobody worried about air pollution, because the phrase probably wasn't even invented yet. Diesel fuel was dirt cheap, even while adjusting for inflation. There weren't as many cars and trucks on the street then as there is now. If the line was able to be held together for a few more years then, the tide would have turned to invest the capital and it would have been saved. RIP.
October 4,1969; The last Rt MJ Myrtle Avenue Local leaves Bridge-Jay Streets at 12:13AM with Q-Types 1619 ABC,1616 CBA and arrived at Metropolitan Avenue at 12:43AM. It was followed by an empty (backup) train with Q-Types 1613ABC,1610 CBA.
There were two post-abandonement fan trips using Q-Types 1629 ABC and 1616 CBA. Saturday, October 4 for the National ERA and Sunday, October 5 for the Trolley Museum of New York.
This is from an article in the October,1969 issue of the ERA NYD Bulletin.
Farewell old friend
Larry,RedbirdR33
Given what we all know -- and what the MTA officials would be expected to know -- over the last 30 years, as far as proposed lines that were never built is concerned, do you think if they had to do it all over again they would have shut down the Myrtle El, Third Ave. El and Culver Shuttle?
It would be nice to see someone from the MTA (current or former) admit it was a mistake, but I doubt you could ever get anyone to admit tearing down any el before an adequate replacement is in place was a miscalculation.
[Given what we all know -- and what the MTA officials would be expected to know -- over the last 30 years, as far as proposed lines that were never built is concerned, do you think if they had to do
it all over again they would have shut down the Myrtle El, Third Ave. El and Culver Shuttle?]
My guess is that Culver and Myrtle would still be around, but the Manhattan portion of the Third Avenue El would be history. There was just too much of a clamor in favor of "opening up" Third Avenue. As development proceeded eastward, no one would have wanted an old El structure in the way. I would imagine that the Bronx section would still be around.
Obviously my own opinion...
Franklin was saved by strong community opposition with a little bit of the race card thrown in.
I don't think Myrtle would be taken down now. I believe community opposition and a good sell job that it was an important link to MetroTech and downtown Brooklyn would keep it going. Add that to the fact that only a few years before its demise, the TA was actually planning a purchase of lighter-weight equipment for both Myrtle and the Bronx 3rd Ave. el. So the TA took advantage of a window in time when they could get away with it to pull down those two els.
As to the 3rd Avenue. If it were standing and running in Manhattan today, I think there would still be pressure to take it down. But I don't think the TA would get away with it today without building the 2nd Avenue subway first.
Remember though that it would be an exceedingly old structure, and not in as good shape as the demolished 2nd Avenue el, so it would undoubtedly have had to have had rehabilitation to still be running today.
Lastly, Culver would be a useful connector if the track connection with the IND line had been made, but I think the ridership was so poor there wouldn't have been sufficient justification for keeping it.
I agree that the Myrtle Ave. line would still be useful today. Downtown Brooklyn along Myrtle wouldn't be as desolate as it looks today. As for the Third, I doubt the Manhattan part would have survived, considering the community pressure to get rid of it, it's age and poor physical condition, and it's inability to handle the amount of East Side passangers that are there today. The Culver line should have been kept simply because it provided another way for F train riders to access the rest of the BMT lines without having to go all the way down to Coney Island or all the way up to 4th Avenue (very annoying if you want to get to Neptune Ave from 62nd st!). It could also have had thru service re-instituted by routing the M line off the West End line and sending it to Ditmas Ave.
It makes you wonder why the entire Myrtle Ave. line wasn't upgraded to handle steel subway equipment. Had it been upgraded, it might still be around today. If I had to make a guess, I would say there may have been concern that the Brooklyn Bridge couldn't handle subway trains.
IIRC, the Bronx portion of the 3rd Ave. el was falling apart by the time it closed. The R-12s assigned to it ran in four-car trains instead of five, and had their acceleration rates slowed down to reduce strain on the elevated structure.
Steve, Don't forget that the Myrtle Ave "el" survived the Brooklyn Bridge portion by more than 25 years. I'm not exactly sure but I think anything beyond Bridge-Jay St was dismantled around 1942.
I believe the el was cut back to Jay St. in 1944.
That was the same year the Sands St. terminal burned down, right?
Either that or the elevated structure itself sustained fire damage.
I was close, it was still 25 years.
That's another gripe I have.
The trolleys continued to run on the rapid transit tracks over the Brooklyn bridge. They (the City) should have kept the connection to the Myrtle Ave line utilizing the El cars and/or utilized the trolleys/light rail on the Myrtle Ave structure. I never quite understood the removal of the Lexington Ave line either, which could have figured in the light rail concept.
And for that matter, the 3rd Ave line in the Bronx could have been slated for light rail usage instead of removal.
I'm sure the Lexington was removed because it was redundant, because it paralelled the Myrtle Ave. line. Both the Third and Myrtle Ave. els could have been retained had the MTA thought it worthy to buy lightweight subway cars. The technology existed back in the 1930's to build lightweight, all-metal rapid transit cars.
The Lexington L was no more redundant than a Second Avenue subway would be, so close to the Lex (subway). The Fulton and Myrtle Lines are a decent distance apart by the time they reach Broadway Brooklyn.
The Lex also provided direct service from Downtown Brooklyn to portions of the Broadway-Jamaica Line. After 1940, it provided the only direct service from Downtown Brooklyn or Downtown Manhattan to the Broadway Junction and the remainder of the Fulton Street L.
Simple truth is that when the private companies operated most of the system, the City insisted that they maintain every drop of service possible. Once the City took over it snipped with a free hand.
Although I'm fascinated with the Lex as I work a block away from where it joined the Bway El at Lexington & Bway and I try to find any remnant but haven't been able to find anything, I must be the devil's advocate and say it was kinda close to the Myrtle (redundancy) with basically the same streets as stations. Also, although not one seat, there was service to the Bway El from downtown Bklyn. You just had to take the Myrtle and change at Bway. (or go a little further and change for the Canarsie Lne)
One thing I'm surprised about is they never replaced it with a bus as they usually do when they discontinue an el. The nearest bus line parallel to Lexington is on Gates Av, 2 blocks south.
The G Crosstown took the place of some of the route of the Myrtle and Lex els. By the time the city was building the new subway, the els were already 40+ years old, and were nowheres near being able to take new heavier cars. Besides, the city itself had grown beyond from the original 1880's routing scheme.
Probably one reason why no direct bus service was substituted for the Lex el was that the portion of Grand Ave between Myrtle and Lafayette was taken over by Pratt and two different housing projects.
I'm sure Mayor LaGuardia had a lot to do with dismantling of the els. He didn't care for them, plain and simple.
I'm sure he did with the ones that were shut down on the very first day of city control (5th Ave, Fulton, in Brooklyn and the 9th in Manhattan). There was also a picture of Laguardia in the post about 2 weeks ago ripping up the ceremonial "first rail" of the 2nd Ave. el. I can understand wanting to rid Manhattan of the els, as they were expected to be replaced by subways, and the 9th in Manhattan, Fulton and 5th in Brooklyn, which paralled modern subway lines. But no new subway line has been planned to replace the Myrtle or Third Ave. in the Bronx. They should still be running.
There was a Myrtle Ave.-Central Ave. line in the IND Phase 2 scheme of things. And, of course, the 2nd Ave. line was supposed to replace the 3rd Ave. el.
In Manhattan. But I don't remember seeing any of the modern 1968 plans for the 2nd Ave. line to run along the Third Ave. route in the Bronx. I was under the impression that it was to connect to the Pelham line north of Hunts Point.
10.12/99
LaGuardia had the same hatred for the trolleys.
Bill Newkirk
The Myrtle didn't connect to any other subway line south of Broadway (north of Broadway it was rebuilt for heavier subway cars), so rebuilding it to heavier standars would be a waste of money.
But this is not an excuse for why the Myrtle or Bronx 3rd Ave. lines had to be closed down. The BMT had lightweight, aluminum cars running on it's els as early as the 1930's (Bluebirds?). IIRC, the MTA was toying with the idea of buying lightweight, modern cars for both these lines (R39) but they thought that replacing them with a bus would be cheaper.
It wouldn't have been the Myrtle with newer cars. The thing that made that line so much fun to ride were the "Q" cars. With newer trains it would have been just another el.
It wouldn't have been the Myrtle with newer cars [instead of the Q's]
You see, Jeff, it's all a matter of perspective...
For me, it wasn't Myrtle without the gate cars.
For others, I'm sure it wasn't Myrtle without the Lex connection and run over the Brooklyn Bridge.
I'd like to see Myrtle back, even if they ran R-143s on it.
I'm with you on those gate cars!
Just as the A line isn't the same without the R-10s.
To be honest, those Q cars were at the end of their ropes in 69. I mean, for god sakes, they were made from wood! Even if the el was kept, those cars needed to be scrapped (for firewood, I guess).
Do you live in a wood house? Do you tear it down when it gets to be, oh, 60 or so years old?
I can guarantee you there was hardly a piece of original wood left in the Q's. Wood cars had their wood replaced, just like your back deck or your fence.
The limiting factor in a wooden car's life was equipment.
Well no, but my house isn't on wheels, always moving around ...
Well no, but my house isn't on wheels, always moving around ...
Even better! It would be harder for termites to catch your house if it were always on the move!
LOL...
I was surpised to find recently that the transfer passage between the B and N lines at New Utrecht Ave./62nd St. still has a wooden floor. Are there any other places on the system where wood floors are still in use?
There are a few wooden mezzanines left in the system, especially on the Broadway el in Brooklyn.
Also on the new Lots Line and the 2/5 to East tremont. Read Peggy's line by line- she mentions those stations which have wood mezzanines and or floors
I remember 242 on the 1 has a wood mezzanine.
I'm a little confused as far as subway car weight on the Bronx portion of the Third Ave. El.
If the structure couldn't handle heavier subway equipment, then how did the R12s operate on this line. If I'm not mistaken, I believe that R36s ran on this line for a very short period of time.
The section south of Fordham Rd. (the existing line below the original Bronx Park terminal for the "Surburban Line") was built to earlier, lighter IRT el standards. The R12's operated on this line, but at lower speeds along the older sections. EVen so, they damaged the structure to the point that it would have had to be reinforced if it was kept past the 1973 closing date.
The section from Fordham Rd. along Webster Av. to Gun Hill Rd. was built around the same time as the White Plains Rd. line and could carry heavy subway cars. This is why the middle track along this newer section of the line was still in use to the very end.
You mentioned that the middle track from Fordham Road up to Gun Hill Road was in use up to the end.... it would seem to me that the portion of the middle track from Williamsbridge Station to Gun Hill Road would have to be used to reverse the trains.... But what about the part of the third track from Williamsbridge south to Fordham Road... what was that part used for besides train layups?
An inquiring mind would like to know...
Best wishes to all
Morton Belcher
Best wishes to all...
From what I've seen in pictures (the line closed when I was only 1 year old and i never rode it) that track was used for some layups. The middle track came to an end at a bumper block just south of the 200th St. station, which is where the newer el structure met the older.
When the Manhatten structure was closed, there was no more express service on the line. The bumper was installed at Mosholu Pkwy when the Xovers were removed from Fordham Rd. around 1957 or so. The center track was always used for lay-ups even before express service was terminated. However, Mosholu Parkway was always the yard limit.
I do not know if there were lay-ups around or south of Tremont, as there was a yard a 177th St, which disappeared around 1951 when the Bronx Park Terminal was shut down. This shut down coincided with Bronx Zoo terminal shut down on the White Plains Rd line, the removal of the Willis Ave structure (Bergen Cutoff) and service south of Chatham SQ to South Ferry and City Hall.
What exactly was the "Bergen cutoff"?
Willis Avenue Structure apparently.
There were two connections from the 3 Avenue El to the Contract I West Farms Line in the South Bronx. The oldest of these openned on November 26,1904 from the 149 Street Station along Westchester Av to connect with the West Farms Line. The Bergen Avenue Cutoff openned on July 1,1917 from the upper level of the 143 Street Station and ran along a private right-of-way to 149 St and then a short distance on Bergen Av connecting at grade into the original Westchester Av Connection. Service over both branches was discontinued on November 5,1946 and the Bergen Av Cytoff was torn down. The Westchester Av Connection was retained for non-revenue moves up to about 1952.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Would this explain the remains I see of steel support pillars that looked like they held up train tracks over the 2/5 line as it descends into the 3rd Ave, 149th St. station? I wasn't aware that the present IRT line was connected to the 3rd. Ave. el in this area, only the connection at Gun Hill RD.
Chris: Thats correct. Going westbound you can see the remains of the two track lead into the Westchester Av Line, the Bergen Cutoff turned of the Westchester Av line about one block before 3 Avenue.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think the closure of the Brooklyn Navy Yard had the biggest impact on the demise of the Myrtle Avenue. By the time I rode it regularly, after school in 1968 and 1969 there were very few times that the train was crowded, you could just about be guaranteed a seat. Just like the NX, Sea Beach Super Express, an empty seat meant a death knell.
As for the Culver, I think the biggest problem for the operation in a modern system, would have been the crossing at grade required to mate up with the IND Culver Service. In the 1970's, as it would be now, a grade crossing was an anathema. The Culver Shuttle too had very low ridership in the late 60's and early 70's.
The closing of the Culver Shuttle was a classic case of how to get rid of a line.
First, they stub-ended all service at Ditmas Avenue, even though there was no necessity to do so. They did not hold (at that time) D trains at Ditmas for transfers or vv. So they made it as annoying as possible for former BMT Culver riders to get to any station after Ditmas.
This began the decline of ridership. Next, they cut late service back to 36th Street/4th Avenue. For a while they contined the Culver-Nassau service from Ditmas Ave., but as fewer people rode this (because of the difficulty of getting to stations south of Ditmas) they cut it back to the shuttle from 9th Ave. to Ditmas.
For a while they ran two trains, keeping two tracks open. The final blow was cutting the shuttle to a single track, so all service was by a single train. And to add insult to injury, nighttime West End service was cut back to 36th/4th. So if you wanted to go from anyplace north of 36th/4th (something close to 100% of riders) you had to change at 36th/4th and again at 9th Ave.
So surprise! Low ridership.
Yes my folks and I were riding the "MJ" earlier in the evening, October 3, 1969. We went from Bway-Myrtle to Bridge-Jay, back to Metropolitan, back to Bridge-Jay, back to Metropolitan again and got off at Bway-Myrtle. We got our souvenirs from one of the 1619 cars.
Wayne
Wayne: I just missed the closing of the Myrtle Avenue El not returning from South Dakota until October 15. I did however get to ride the last of the old IRT eqiptment on the 3 Avenue El later that month.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I still have the cane seat I too as a souvenir from a"Q" type car that very day. I carried it home on the "J" to Sutphin (also since taken down), the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hempstead Bus Comp (pre MSBA) Mack Bus to East Meadow. You could say I had a seat the whole way home, a one seat ride!!!
Or you could say you pulled up a chair. Rim shot!
Of course, back in 1969, the J was still the QJ.
And to think I was in the city on October 4, in Saturday school. Looking back, I think I can remember seeing or hearing something about that line's closing. I do remember seeing the Qs once from the railfan window of a QJ train and thought, man, those cars look old.
A stark contrast to July of 1965, when we were in the city on the 21st and 22nd, not knowing the Triplexes were saying sayonara on the 23rd. I didn't see any of them, though.
Being in Cleveland Ohio at the time, and 8 years old, I was not able to ride the Myrt's last. However, ten years later, I was attending Pratt Institute, and hoisted a couple of beers in her honor from my dorm room overlooking the avenue.
Later on in the week, I spent some time over at Conrad Milster's place viewing slides he took of the line during operations (including the snowstorm when it was the only el running), and the dismantling of the structure. Conrad later gave me tape of the last movement of the Q's out of Fresh Pond.
I have BRIDGE-JAY STS and METROPOLITAN direction signs from the local station installed in my apartment "geographically correct".
There was a movie made in the late 1960's called "The Night They Raided Minsky's." It was the story of a Pennsylvania Amish Girl who ended up performing at Minsky's Burlesque House in New York. The openning credits have numerous views of the Q-Types running on the Myrtle Avenue El.
Larry,RedbirdR33
10/06/99
That's funny you should mention that. The last time I saw the beginnning of that movie was years ago on Channel 7 , the 4:30 movie. I believe it takes place after the turn of the century. Obviously there were no gate cars to be used so the Q's had to suffice. We all know the Q's debuted around 1939.
Bill Newkirk
No the Qs are older than that -- the IRT World's Fair cars that closed out their careers on the Bronx section of the Third Ave. el debuted in 1939.
I think that the "Q" cars made their debut in 1939 too. They were all former gate cars which were rebuilt changing their appearance completely.
Right. The Qs were rebuilt into closed end platform cars for the World's Fair. It was either that or use old open platform gate cars, which the BMT felt wouldn't sit too well with fair visitors, or design a new car which could only be used on the Astoria and Flushing lines, which the BMT couldn't justify.
So the Qs as they came to be known debuted in 1939; however, they were originally built in 1908 or thereabouts.
That's right. I just meant that the Q cars weren't brand new in 1939, since wooden rail cars went out of style about the time they finished the Panama Canal.
For anyone who loved the gate cars the "C's" and the "Q's" were the enemy.
A side note on the Myrtle closing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that only a few days before the scheduled closing, a truck had a collision with the structure sufficient to compromise its safety.
Most people thought that was it, and the line wouldn't make its official closing date, but the City erected a wooden support so the Qs could make their last stand.
Rather like patching up the condemned man...
OK I was wondering if anyone can help me our in here? I recently purchased a set of brass BRT BU cars in HO. I would like to paint them in the original paint scheme. I know they were painted red with gold/dulux lettering. What I need to know is when the paint scheme changed? Was it when the steps and traps were removed or did the as delivered paint scheme stay until the car needed to be repainted? In going along with that last question I have heard 2 diffrent assumptions on the paint scheme, what color were the window sash? I was under the impression that they were painted a cream color much the same applied to BRT streetcars(aka 4573 at Shoreline before it was repainted into its current scheme). In speaking with Jeff H. it would be safe to assume that the sash was also just stained and varnished. As for the striping on the side of the car it looks like the same color as the lettering in the photos in "Brooklyn Elevated" by Ed Watson and James Greller. I figure with all the transit knowledge in this group we might be able to come up with a consensus.
I appreciate any help any readers might be able to give
I have never appreciated the paint job on the museum gate cars, at least not from the color pictures that I have seen. I guess that is because I never saw them in service in those colors. My earliest memory of the gate cars was from about 1941. They quickly became my favorites until I lost contact with them in early 1954. In the early years they all seemed to be painted a light weathered brown. Sometime near the end of WW-2 a refurbishment program was started where the cars were completely repainted inside and out. The new exterior color was a very nice shade of green. The cars looked great for about six months until the weather darkened the green to a type of gray-black. I tried to keep track of the cars that were painted and somewhere I have a list of about 60 cars that were painted up to the fall of 1949. Many of the cars finished their careers in peeling brown and never did get repainted.
I know my time of interest was only about 13 years, but during that time they were all brown or green. I guess that is why the museum red just rubs me the wrong way. I never rode them when they were red.
A good friend sent me pictures by E-mail of #1349 from Branford. At the time the pictures were taken one side of the car was painted brown and the other was painted green. The shades of the two colors seemed to be exactly as I remembered them from the 1940's.
Incidentally, during my period of interest there were only two gate cars that carried 1400 numbers, 1448 and 1482, both of which had received the green paint jobs. I have been told by several experts that all of the 1400's were converted to "Q"s, and that these two cars were not originally in the 1400 series.
The models are yours and you should paint them whatever color you like but I sure would vote against the red.
The Acela train which has been testing in the Philadelphia division, Northeast corrodor, was in Penn Station tonight. Arriving on Track 12 at 9:10PM tonight 10/4/99. The train is enroute to Boston for clearance testing behind two F-40's(on at New Haven) and AEM-7 #914 which was painted in the new Acela colors for the occasion. The train is running ahead of train #178 (It departed Penn. Sta. at 9:23PM tonight) It is due to arrive in Boston around 3:00AM after a photo stop/ press conference in New Haven around 11:30PM tonight. Once in Boston it will undergo a series of clearance testing in and around South Station. As I get more info I'll post it here.....Mark W.
Interesting. When I passed through Philadelphia on Friday and Sunday I noticed what appeared to be an Acela trainset under tarps - is this the same one?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The one I saw when I was in Philadelphia last (7/5/99),was not under tarps. The one you saw might be another one.
Has this been tried recently (in the past five to ten years)??
This used to be a "sport" of some sort....
Who was the youngest to successfully complete this feat?
I might try to do this myself very soon...if I am still young enough for "youngest to complete this feat." (BTW, I am not far from my 21st B-day)
Nick
SOME TEENAGERS RODE THE ENTIRE SYSTEM IN THE 50S FOR 15 CENTS, LATE NIGHTS ARE THE KILLER
There's been some discussion of this a while back but it died because most of us are too old and creaky to try it any more. If you think you can get a small group together that would be seriouly interested in doing this, there are people out there who could help you plan a route to do it in the shortest time possible - in fact, I think that subway-buff (subway-buff@mindspring.com) had one possible routing that would do it in approximately 24 hours. IIRC, it needs to be done on a weekday so that all lines are operating to all stations and express service was available. I don't recall now whether the ground rules required riding both local and express in those areas where the local and express tracks diverge (as they do in Queens in a couple of places) or not.
Good luck!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I prefer to do it with another goal in mind. This summer I took a very long ride when I got on at Main Street, rode the #7, then picked up the IND and rode it to Far Rockaway. With my Fun Pass in hand made the free transfer to LI Bus N33 to Long Beach, then switched there to a N15 ... now I almost could have done it for 1.50. The problem was I met a friend at Jay Street for supper.
I'm not going to claim any kind of record here, but it was a real fun way to spend a summer afternoon !
So, let me suggest you organize a "Field Trip" that is long, but has a lot of stuff to see along the way, you may find a few of us nuts want to join you.
Mr t__:^)
if anyone wantas to try, we can get up a group. I'll go, I work for NYCT and I can be in uniform to make it "official". I'll document the trip-times, car numbers, direction, etc. Someone else can also do the same and I'll verify the info since I'll be with the group.
I will do this for free!
The current record was set by a group of three people on December 11th, 1988, when the Archer Ave line to Parsons/Archer opened for business.
--Mark
Read my posting. These never produced a log to Guinness and they have no record. Besides 26+ hours is more than the well documented trip of 1971 the I took when the system was much larger.
These 3 guys are definitely Yo-Yo's.
It can be done if you know where to transfer.
Times Square, Broadway/Nassau, Atlantic Avenue, Coney Island, Grand Central and Broadway Junction make it possible to ride the entire system with a single fare.(I've checked).
When I'm up there, I always buy a FunPass but only use it two or three times.
Hey, I did it in December of 1971 at 24 hours, 11 minutes. We called ourselves the "Subway Seven" with big publicity for Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn. If you can't beat 21 hours, 8.5 minutes than you haven't accomplished nothing. That's the all time record by Mayer Weisen and Charles Emerson from 1973. They were friends of mine.
But the system was smaller back then. The record should be total time divided by number of stations visited with stations visited equal to the max number of stations possible to visit. That way you can compare records across time.
YOU ARE WRONG. The system was bigger in 1971 and 1973 with the 3rd Avenue EL in the Bronx, the Culver Shuttle and the Jamaica Avenue EL.
That was 2 years after the end of the Myrtle. Was the Bronx Third Av and the Culver Shuttle still running?
In 1971 the 3rd Avenue EL was still running along with the Culver Shuttle. I missed the dam #8 train at 149th Street and 3rd Avenue in the 1971 subway rally which gave me a 28 minute delay.
Let's get the record straight. In October, 1973, the 3rd Avenue EL was gone but the Culver Shuttle and Jamaica EL to 168th Street were still in-service. Even with the Archer Avenue extension and the 63rd Street tunnel to nowhere, the system was the same size or larger in 1973. It was definitely larger when I did the rally in 1971. If you can't at least beat my record of 24 hours and 11 minutes you are wasting your time and effort.
A couple of yo-yo's in the 1988 said they had the record of 26 hours+ when the Archer Avenue Extension opened. Guinness took their word on news media accounts only and a log could not be produced. Mayer Wiesen and I conducted Guinness and they could super claim. NOT CREDITABLE at all. No log, no record in accordance with my book and if you can't beat the 1973 record which is super well documented and audited then you will never have a creditable record.
In going thru more of the postings on this subject, I have to add to my previous post. In 1967 when I and 2 friends broke the record, there was a committee of Transit Officials who reviewed your log to make the run official. I'm guessing there is no longer any such committee. I agree, if there is no log, there is no run. We had to supply the time on/off each train, and the 1st car#. There were also several different classifications of competition, A, B, and C, based on express versus local, opposing directions of track, etc. This was quite a popular 'event', usually covered by the papers and well know to the riding public at the time.
Just curious about the rules. Since it had to be on one fare were you allowed to get off the system at the 2 ticket transfers at that time, The transfer to the IND from the Myrtle at Jay St and the transfer from the Franklyn Shuttle to the IND at Fulton St. If it wasn't allowed it would add alot of time backtracking. And I don't even want to get into the fact that the Rockaways was a double fare in those days!!!
Jeffrey Rosen. You must do it on one fare. Also, you must stop or bypass all stations less than 100 foot align of the station platform. You don't have see the station platform, just have be less than 100 feet of the station platform. This is true on the express tracks on the Lex. north of Grand Central.
Take it from an old timer at these matters, don't try set a record and I guarantee you will not break my record or Mayer Wiesen's record of 1971.
The Rockaway double fare didn't apply unless you entered or exited in the Rockaways or Broad Channel.
Hope you have a strong bladder. Alot of the bathrooms have been closed.
If I can get my hands on a recent Japanese invention...something they devised that was once viewed on TV which allows one to go on long walks and operate normally without going to the restroom...this item had at least some plastic tube and 2 plastic containers...one of the plastic containers you can empty into a trash can, as long as no one is overwhelmed by that smell...That would be perfect!
Nick C
BTW, I remember Coney Island Station with a restroom that is open, but is it outside the paid fare zone? Is that the only restroom open in the entire system?
No, there are rest rooms in other stations. Down on the Brighton Line at Sheepshead Bay, which was recently rebuilt, there are rest rooms within the fare gates.
I was just mentioning to someone today about a device called a Motorman's Helper, which I once saw on an episode of Hill Street Blues. Belker had to escort a prisoner on an airplane flight, and mentioned that he was using a motorman's helper, a device for collecting one's urine. Did they make that name up, or has anyone ever heard of a Motorman's Helper? (If it does exist, does the TA provide one for each male worker? , just a joke)
I used to drive a cab in the 70's while going to college and I know alot of cab drivers who carried an empty bottle with them. I never did, however that was a big problem. There was no worse feeling than to be down on Wall Street at rush hour, having to go so bad you can taste it and having someone hop in and say "Kennedy Airport". I guess that would be comparable to a motorman on a Far Rockway bound "A" train just leaving the northern most terminal in Washington Hts. and have nature call.
Coming up out of the tunnel into Spring Garden station one day, a
TO on the Market Frankford El here in Philly pulled his train 2
car lengths onto the platform, keyed open one door, and disappeared
somewhere into the station for about a minute. The funny part was
the radio calling him over and over. Once he finally ran back and
answered the call, I believe he stated he was on "personal business".
Ayup.
I've seen porable 'cans' sold in pilot catalogs. If you think the
Rockaway line is a long stretch, try 12000 feet! The one looked like a
plastic enclosed watering can with a long, err, spout.
This is a subject I have asked about a few times in the past. Not only was it a "sport", it was an official competition. I was 14 when I did it in record breaking time on June 16, 1967 with 2 friends. Our record of 22 hours and 39 minutes was made official by the Amateur New York Subway Riding Committee on December 22, 1967. Our certificates were signed by Geoffrey H. Arnold, Don Harold and Peter R. Samson. I was contacted some time ago (thru subtalk) by someone from a group who tried to beat our record and failed. If anyone has info on the record subway riding runs made after June '67, please let me know. I have not been able to find any 'official' information on this topic and Guiness has been an unreliable source of this information.
Thanks for your support on this subject on subtalk. You and I have communicated on E-Mail in the past and as you know I was trying to bet your record in 1971. You know that Mayor Wiesen and Charles Emerson beaten your record on October of 1973 of 21 hours, 8.5 minutes that is totally documented and recorded and was in Guinness until 1989.
By the way, I was that someone who contacted you.
[You know that Mayor Wiesen and Charles Emerson beaten your record on October of 1973 of 21 hours, 8.5 minutes that is totally documented and recorded and was in Guinness until 1989.]
It really isn't possible to compare pre- and post-Chrystie Street records.
Actually, the effect of Chrystie St. on this sort of record should be fairly minor. One extra station (Grand St.). One connection added (B'way-Lafayette to DeKalb) and one eliminated (Chambers St. to DeKalb). More significant for riding records would be the removal of the Myrtle Ave. and Third Ave. el lines. That eliminated a good bit of mileage, on which trains ran fairly slowly too.
I made an (unofficial) attempt at the record back in 1972 and failed miserably, winding up taking close to 30 hours. The Myrtle Ave. el was already gone then, but the Third Ave. el in the Bronx still remained. I made my own decisions about the rules, which don't seem to match any of the standard versions. I was concerned with covering all stretches of right-of-way, rather than all stations. That meant I needed to cover both the express and local routes of the IND Queens line and IND Brooklyn (F) line where they diverged. So I needed to cover the Brooklyn F during rush hour to catch the express route. I also needed to catch the rush hour 'K' route between B'way-Laffayette and Essex St. (OK, a second Chrystie St. "connection", although it opened 7 months later than the main one) and to be on the Rockaway line late at night to catch the Round Robin across Hammels Wye. All these things are gone now, so a present-day record ought to be faster than one from the 70's I would think.
What was your time on this trip. You are right in your discussion.
As I said, my time was very close to 30 hours. About a minute or two under, i.e. between 29:58 and 29:59. Not a very good showing, I admit. I didn't really have a planned route, I just knew I had to be in the places I mentioned at the times I mentioned. I also failed to cover one section of track that I had planned to, namely the northbound half of the inner loop at South Ferry. I hadn't realized that the Bowling Green-SF shuttle backtracked over the southbound half and never covered the "northbound" half, therefore I wound up not doing so either - after spending quite a while waiting for that shuttle.
Just out of curiousity, if somebody were to do this today, what routes would they have to take to minimize backtracking and still cover all the lines?
Assuming a couple things here:
1. No bizzare re-routes are in effect because of construction, etc. Admittedly this would be a fairly rare occurrance.
2. The idea would be to cover all the lines, not all the stops. In other words, express trains could be used as long as the express tracks remain adjacent to the locals. If the express tracks diverge significantly, then both the local and express routes would have to be covered.
3. It appears that the time record is pretty much set in stone, so let's assume that no attempt is being made to break it.
(Besides, with unlimited-ride MetroCards and free transfers available, I guess the idea of remaining on the system having paid only a "single fare" is sort of a moot point now anyway.)
Any takers?
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Nobody answered my rules question a few days ago. I'll try again. When the Myrtle was still operating there was a paper transfer from the Myrtle to the IND at Jay Street which allowed you to go on the street and off the system. There was also a paper transfer between the "A" and the Franklyn Shuttle at Fulton & Franklyn. Was that allowable since it was still only 1 fare even though you left the system for a couple of minutes? It definitely had to save alot of backtracking on both lines.
The map never mentioned this peculiar fact, so I assume it's allowed.
Of course it was allowable! Otherwise passengers would not have received the paper transfer in the first place! The TA did this out of courtesy since there was no physical connection. Yes, you could do your shopping on a single fare by simply going or returning to your starting point via another route.
I meant for the competition rules.
Bill, this thread was originally about the attempts to set time records for travelling the entire system on one fare. My question was: Were those paper transfers and thus leaving the system allowable in the rules for those record attempts.
[My question was: Were those paper transfers and thus leaving the system allowable in the rules for those record attempts.]
I don't see why not - the transfers could be seen as extensions of the fare zones.
I would say the paper transfers do not count. You must stay in the system completely and not leave. NO GOOD.
That point is now moot. The paper transfer is gone- now it is a free transfer WITHIn the fare control. (When the shuttle reopens)
The TA maps of the late 60s had a footnote on the paper transfer at Jay St. It said transfers from the MJ to the A or E were valid only as far as Broadway-Nassau Sts. Nothing was mentioned about travel in the opposite direction.
I do remember something to that effect on the maps. However I know in those days I would change for the Myrtle from either the Jamaica Line or the Canarsie Line, take it all the way down to Jay St and change for the IND. That was a regular part of my railfan "buff" trips. I would then take the IND down to the Culver Shuttle.
The transfers were issued on the Myrtle El at stations from Sumner through Navy,at night went the ticket offices at these stations were closed the transfers were issued at Bridge-Jay which had a 24 hour agent.(He never slept). They allowed entrance to the IND Jay St-Boro Hall Station for a ride to Broadway-Nassau,of course once you entered the control area you could go anyplace you wanted to.
The transfer in the opposite direction was issued at Bway-Nassau with the purchase of a token. It allowed transfer to the BMT at Bridge-Jay and was only supposed to be valid for stations from Navy thru Sumner but again there was no way to enforce this provision.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Also at one time there was a paper transfer at 155th St Polo Grounds from the the Concourse to the old Shuttle To Jerome, and at Yankee Stadium between the 4 and D Trains. But they had time limits on the transfer, to prevent people taking one train to the games and the other one back from the games. they used to station a extra agent at the gate to look at the transfer for the times
I think using the Franklin Ave. transfer would be allowable. Whether it would be desirable to do so is another story.
The transfer at Bridge-Jay was not an unrestricted free transfer. Only people who paid cash fares at stations on the Myrtle Ave. el from Broadway/Myrtle to Bridge-Jay could get the tickets allowing the transfer to the IND at Jay St. station. And the transfer to go from the Jay St. IND station to the Bridge-Jay el station was obtainable only by paying a cash fare at the Fulton St./Broadway-Nassau complex! The purpose of this arrangement was apparently to provide substitute service for the old el route over the Brooklyn Bridge to Sands St. (?) terminal.
Maybe we could get our minds off politics and
baseball by considering WHAT is your favorite
elevated line, either up on an el or an embankment,
for looking into other people's homes? I
capitalized WHAT because I don't want any of you
silly Bud & Lou fans to start a Who's on First
Routine. I know how your minds work.
This is sort of a sensitive area, because we are
invading people's privacy. However if
they didn't want us talking about them, they should
have left the shades down, even if it's 107 outside. With that said, what was
the strangest thing you remember seeing that you can
talk about about on a Message Board that prides
itself on being suitable for all groups of people.
So watch yourself folks, if you have any truly
disgusting or risque stories, don't post them up and
offend others. Be considerate, e-mail me those
stories, as I am mature and well-balanced enough to
deal with them properly. I guess in fairness to the people who live along the train's route, I should open this up also to them. Who was the strangest looking person you noticed looking into your window? And that wasn't me.
You get some pretty good "views" from the J.
Several months ago, on nyc.transit, there was an interesting posting from Cap'n Bludd (a track-crew flagger and an occasional poster to Subtalk) regarding views from the elevated structure. People who aren't close to stations frequently are unconcerned about pulling dowm their shades. figuring that trains go by too fast for the passengers to see much of anything. But they don't realize that track crews may be walking along those tracks from time to time and obviously are going slowly enough to see a whole lot more :-)
Remember "Twelve Angry Men"? The witness stated she saw the murder across the street through the cars of a moving el train.
I always liked to ride the outside platform between cars on both the Myrtle and the Lexington Ave Lines. The two scenes I remember seeing most often were people leaning out the windows of the buildings looking down to the street, or someone sleeping in an easy chair, frequently with an open newspaper laying on them. Remember with even a slow train speed you only got a glimpse. I think I was more interested in the clatter of the train and the swaying motion of the two cars.
I think the Title says it all. Any ideas?
How about riding the route of the first IRT lines? Of course, we'd have to skip City Hall and use the 42nd Street Shuttle.
Hey Peter. That's a good idea. Riding the original route of the IRT. I don't what time the first runs were. And quite honestly I didn't know it was Oct 27, until I checked it in one of Stan Fischler's books.
I believe the first train left City Hall at around 2:35 pm and took 40-60 minutes tops to get to 145th and Broadway.
was it a local or express?
It was an Express.
The train switched from the local to express tracks as the train came from the City Hall loop. There was actually a switching problem with the inaugural run.
What happened was the special silver controller handle used for the occasion didn't fit properly and hit the brake valve, throwing the train into BIE.
That special ran express to 145th St., and covered the route in 26 1/2 minutes. Mayor McClellan was at the controls, and was having so much fun running his new toy that he didn't give up his post until the train had reached 103rd St. Supposedly, he was pushing 40 mph most of the way. Can you imagine him operating an A train of R-10s up CPW? Pure bliss! He even snapped back the way a kid would when it was suggested he defer to a regular motorman: "This is MY train and I'm running it!"
The inaugural special ran local back to City Hall, to allow the dignitaries to examine each station, and it took something like 41 minutes.
I'm all for such an event. I will be in the city on the 27th as it is. Too bad they won't have the Lo-Vs on the shuttle. What do you think, Wayne?
I knew because it's my birthday. Maybe that's why I'm such a subway nut. It opened on October 27, 1904. I was born in 1940. Transpose it and it is eery. Well I think it ism just like it's eery that I'm such a fanatical nut about the New York subway.
According to Under The Sidewalks of New York (Brian Cudahy) the opening day ceremonies were supposed to end at 2 PM but ran about 1/2 hour late. That would make the first train out of City Hall at about 2:30 PM.
I did that on the 75th Anniversary. It would be nice to do that again. I am taking that day off from work.
Read all about it.
The key lines which Brighton Liners do not have access to are the F and the G. If the MTA really wanted to make the Franklin Shuttle a usefull train the should've continued it Southward to the Culver line and Northward to the G.
Thing is, (if you've been following along) the line is part of the original BRT/BMT system, as was the Culver (F). All the lines that now go to Coney Island at one time connected to the Fulton El, and ran into downtown Brooklyn. What is now the Franklin Shuttle is the original ramp from the Brighton line to the Fulton Street line.
-HAnk
Just came across my screen"
History Channel, Tuesday 8pm & Wednesday 2am
History of the NYC Subway system
I think it was a 1995 A & E Program
IF it's Empire Beneath the Streets, it has been on A&E before. It was produced by Transit Gloria Mundi for A&E and is available both from A&E Home Video and Transit Gloria Mundi.
It's been on before, but was at 10 vs. 8 PM on LI ... interesting it WAS on the same day.
I was wondering if anyone could tell me what portion of the route for the 2nd Avenue subway has already been dug. I know that it had previously been started in 1972 but was abandoned in 1975 due to budget cuts. At which cross street did it begin and at what cross street was it abandoned?
KRISTEN:
The finished portions of the second avenue subway are as follows:
110th to 120th streets (2nd Ave.)
99th to 105th streets (2nd Ave.)
and a section under Chrystie street near Chatham Sq. in lower Manhattan. A fourth section under 2nd ave between 2st and 9st was started but I don't know if it was ever completed. If anybody has an answer out there I would like to know.
The section in the East Village was filled back in.
--Mark
Is it two track? Is there a station at the United Nations built in the 1940's?
No, there's no station at the UN.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, those sections which were completed were two-track.
Even though the project was suspended in 1975, work continued on three of the segments until they were finished around 1978.
That sounds right. Those contracts which had been awarded were allowed to be completed, but that was it.
At $3.6B for the 69-125 2nd Avenue Subway the MTA proposes, Just think what the proposal would cost if these sections didn't exist.
Try to trip up Mr. Train Control (nah I'm not doing that, just tired of burger and political posts)...
I know when a D and a Q train arrive Manhattan bound at Church Ave and both "punch" for a lineup around the same time, the Q gets the lineup first and the D has to wait just past Parkside Ave where the line goes from 4 tracks to two to enter the tunnel (from the open cut).
If the D punches without the Q at Church Ave, how long will the interlocking (asking from the laymans point of view) accept a punch from the Q and give the Q lineup instead of the already punched D.
Is it done by how close the D gets to its home signal on the interlocking or if the the plant has already moved the points for the D line up? (will the points move back if the Q punches before the D reaches the home or an earlier approach signal?)
Lou, first a joke that I cannot resist because of your first name. You asked "Who is First?" , it should be "Who is On First?"
Anyway, you ask a very interesting question, for which I don't know the answer. Especially if control of the switches is computer controlled rather than human controlled. I don't know that either. But I have stood up front during am rush hour on the Brighton Express, and noted the variation in who went first. Off the top of my head, I would think scheduling might have something to do with it. If the local were running late, or the express was running late that might be a factor. I know when you're in the express, it's a big kick when you pass the local sitting in Parkside especially if they have been waiting there. On the other hand when you're in the local and are held at Parkside to allow the Express go by, you have other feelings. Then there is the crap shoot when both the express and local are in the station at Church, and people switch from the local to the express figuring the express will get to Prospect first ---sometimes only to find out that the local went first. When I was on the front window leaving Church, I would always try to get a look at the following signal, it would give you clues about who had the line-up. Years ago, I remember seeing the line-up change at the last moment. I guess this makes riding the Brighton interesting in the am around Church.
But I'm also interested in what actually controls it. Paul
I just had this situation this morning.
It seems that the whole punch situation depends on whether or not the machine controlling the switch is on manual or automatic.
If the machine is on auto, the Q can punch after the D leaves and still get the line up, as there is a time delay of sorts for the local. Not sure if the local has to get onto a certain circuit or if it really is a time delay.
I actually punched as the D was pulling into Parkside and I got the lineup first. The D was already leaving as I entered Church and began my station stop.
If the D train makes the station stop at Parkside, and is starting to leave the station, it is more than likely it will get the lineup.
Now, if the machine is on manual, I understand the Tower Op. is directed to give the lineup to the local first as long as it punches first. In this case it is a matter of who is first to the punch.
Later,
Chris
From my experince at 59 Master tower which is operated manual, when the S/B B&D get to 59 one of the trains is scheduled to leave first.
If one train is early it will wait for the other to leave first. If the train that was to leave first is late and not in the station, the other will leave first, there by "cutting out" the train that should have left first. Sometimes they will even make one train late just to keep the trains "in place". Sometimes a train will be "cut" when it rightfully should have been in front of the other. It's a human thing, and all depends on if the Tower Operator is paying attention to his/her sheets. If a Tower Operator "cuts" a train, all the Towers and gap stations down the line must be informed, so as to expect the train running "behind".
Back in the late '50s, early '60s, when there was no punch at Church Avenue, it was common for expresses to wait for locals N/B south of PP, even though they left Church at the same time.
I can't tell you how many times I got on a Triplex on the express at Church Avenue, watched it run neck and neck with the local until the latter slowed for Parkside, then felt it come to a quick stock at the interlocking.
After what seemed like an eternity, the Standards on the local would come humming and rocking by. I could swear the lead car stuck its tongue out at us as it passed...
So this has been going on for a long time. I never found out why, but I suspect it's an issue of which train is scheduled to go first, not which train punches first...
Okay "which train scheduled to go first" is fine but that means someone has to make the call. How does the INTERLOCKING PLANT know?
For example if a D punches and moves to Parkside, when would the interlocking move over for the D lineup. I swear I've been on a D at parkside no sign of the Q and all of a sudden we are waiting for the Q to go through. For your statement this means there was human intervention to reset the interlocking or block the orginal route request (punch)??
DeKalb Tower is watching all of this as well as the heavy movements further down at Dekalb itself? I thought it would be more automatic since they have gotten rid of all the towers on the brighton.
Back in the era I was talking about, there was no punch at Church. The tower at Prospect Park made the decision on who was routed where when.
I have no knowledge of how the punches at Church Ave. work now. Maybe someone else knows. I could imagine that the circuitry could be aware of which train went through last, so, for example, if the last train was a "D", the routing would favor a "Q" as the next train. So if a "D" punches next, but then a "Q" punches before the interlocking clears for the "D", the "Q" could get priority.
But that's pure guesswork on my part.
The Tower Operators have Gap sheets which list all scheduled trains passing thru the interlocking. They list the times the train is supposed to be there and from that they can figure which train goes first. At a manual interlocking the punch does nothing more than light a light or ring a bell.
I kind of figured those BMT standards were a bit brazen...
In the ongoing "Mayor of NYCity" thread, there have been a number of references to David Dinkins and the Crown Heights disturbances. I wasn't working in the city at the time and didn't pay much if any attention to the events. Now, I understand that it all started when a black child was run over by a car in a Hasidic leader's motorcade, and it culminated in the stabbing death of a Hasidic man. But why has Mayor Dinkins been so excoriated for his handling of the situation? He surely didn't start the rioting. Did he hold back the police and therefore let the situation escalate?
If this is considered too off-topic, please e-mail me if you have any answers. Thanks.
The question you asked "Did he hold back the police and therefore let the situation escalate" is perhaps too blunt. Dinkins has said he did not and that his inaction was based on his trust in his Police Commissioner to handle the situation properly.
This question was pivotal in a civil lawsuit which never came to trial, so we don't have a definitive legal answer.
There are many unanswered questions. Since there was never federal involvement in the case as there have been in other cases with civil rights overtones (except in the specific civil rights violations committed by two individuals) we'll never have an "official" answer the question.
I think it's fair to say the Dinkins Administration handled this badly. A commission appointed by Governor Cuomo found as much. Whether Dinkins didn't act forcefully for several days for reasons of personal perspective only he knows in his heart. And perhaps even he doesn't know.
Subway riding records are totally invalid without a log and an independent audit of that log. The time of making every transfer, the line, car number of lead car in the train must be accurately recorded and that must be audited by an independent individual or organization that has access to NYCT records of the time and car number of the train consists to verify.
The all time record of October, 1973 was done that way and was audited by Steve Zabel who was paid $35.00 to do the audit. Steve worked as a conducted for NYCTA at the time and has a avid railfan and photographer. His photographs are on this website. Steve is no longer with us.
By the way, NYCT doesn't endorse subway records or validate them. Keep that in mind.
Interesting post. Proves you're never too old to learn something new.
Doug aka BMTman
OK. I work for NYCT. If anyone wants to try for a records we can get up a group to do this thing. I can go along to document the trip. Times, car numbers, lines direction.
Has anyone set a record for the present system? Since the Subway system is a changing entity, a record would have to be valid for the system as it exists at the time the attempt is made. At the time of the 1973 event, the J ran to 168th St., both sides of the Manhattan Bridge were open, and the Culver Shuttle was still in business. On the other hand, the 63rd St. tunnel was not in service, and train speeds were higher. Thus any record set at this time will be for the system as it exists today. The opening of the Queens Connector or the switchover to the south tracks on the bridge will alter the system enough to allow for another new record to be set.
As I said in the past, if you can't at least beat my record of 24 hours, 11 minutes and then bet the 1973 of 21 hours, 8.5 minutes for the system today you are wasting your time effort. With all G.O.'s going on and other slow downs you will NEVER do at least 24 hours and this is guaranteed. Your timing has to right and cannot be thrown together in a careless way. I learn this years ago. The 1973 record which is the only validated record by Mayer Wiesen and Charles Emerson was conducted after watching the operation on the system and putting together a route that was very clever. Timing is everything. Think good and hard before you try it.
NYC needs a transit line in the center median of the Long Island Expressway straight into Nassau County. It will service Queens well and Long Island. It will be called the Moses Line named after the builder of the LIE.
It would be more beneficial than the 2nd Avenue Subway being proposed.
Let me have your thoughts!!!
"NYC needs a transit line in the center median of the Long Island Expressway straight into Nassau County. It will service Queens well and Long Island. It will be called the Moses Line named after the builder of the LIE."
The irony of naming a rail line after Mr. "I hate trains because of the smoke even though trains are electric nowadays" Moses would be just SO delicious! And you could power it by harnessing the energy of his body spinning in its grave. (^;
Moses didn't even have a drivers license and did not drive. He must be driven around or taken the subway.
John, you forgot the Esq.
He had a chauffeur. He also was against building any tunnels -- subway or vehicular -- because the lacked grandeur and looked like "tiled bathrooms." Caro's book has a long section about the Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel fight.
(Try to imagine the Lincoln Bridge and Queens Midtown Bridge coming down on either end of 40th Street and think of how that would have affected the city's development.)
It will never happen! Look at the community pressure against the HOV lanes!
The lack of ROW along the LIE corridor would mean cutting the number of lanes in both directions sharply or double-decking the thing all the way out from Maspeth to wherever you wanted the subway line to end. It would be cheaper to bury it under one of the service roads.
And even cheaper to simply electrify the entire LIRR and fix the problems with it. And much faster to implement too.
Well, let's not rule out LIRR expansion. If it were ever to happen, running it along the LIE would be a bad idea because it would be too far a walk from any residences.
Electrifying the LIRR in it's entirety is a simple solution. But it probably wouldn't deliver very much because the real problems with the LIRR have alot more to do with:
* Bad management in some but not all areas
* Underfunded maintenance programs
* Too much control of the LIRR by the MTA who represents the interests of bureaucrats for the most part
* Inadequate community input on MTA policy regarding effective actions in bettering transportation to and from communities via the LIRR
Fortunately, we can fund the purchase of virtually any kind of new equipment. Even electrification.
But unfortunately, the people responsible for decisions regarding equipment design and operation have been wrong in the past. For example - consider the history of the R46 subway car. These days, they tend to be good reliable cars. But when delivered, the R46s came from the factory with flawed trucks due to bad design.
The public paid for the error.
The manager (whose name I believe was De Roos according to the New York Times) who was instrumental in making the decision to go with the R46 as designed was influenced by the builder and it's sub contracters to approve the purchase.
That manager didn't go to jail. He was never punished - only rewarded. Where was the MTA's accountability in this?
Our tax money paid for the fix and that error finished Pullman in the car building business. I think Rockwell had something to do with the truck design and this incident hurt them as well.
The riding public had to put up with cars pulled from the scrap line to cover runs expected to be held down by new R46s that had sent the last of the R9s to the scrapper.
And this was all caused by bad management at the MTA. And the MTA controls the LIRR.
My point is that simply electrifying the LIRR would be nice. But the real problems lie with it's management.
MTA management is simply not accountable in a tangible way to the riding public or the taxpayer. And that's just no good.
I can think of a history of events that would make LIRR management look inept. But I'm sure I've made my point.
So I wish I could agree that electrification would solve all the problems. In reality - electrification would simply exchange current problems for new ones - so long as the current MTA management and structure are in place.
These are bigger issues than electrification of all LIRR lines.
I didn't mean to imply electrification would solve the LIRR's problems.
Only that it would make more sense than a transit line down the LIE. As for solving the LIRR's problems, it seems nothing short of minor miracle would do that. I could, and I'm sure plenty others here can, wrte volumes on my gripes about the LIRR (and Amtrak for that matter).
I don't complain much about the NYCTA.
Why? Because I've seen an improvement nothing short of remarkable from where the system was in the early - mid 80's. Ditto for Metro-North, NJT. But I've not seen much,if anything, change on the LIRR. The airconditioning is still flaky, cars are still dirty, Glen Head station is still a dump (though less so), the ride quality has barely improved. I could go on, but we've all seen it. The current excuses ("we're the largest commuter RR in the US", "If you don't like it, drive"), have gotten old. I've had good luck with both the LIRR and Amtrak this (school) year, but then, I still remember last year (1.5 hr late Amtrak trains, totallydark LIRR ones, the nonexistant dual modes on the Oyster Bay line). I think both (or at least the LIRR), are great systems (on paper), and I guess part of my frustration comes from the fact that both the LIRR and Amtrak could be have MUCH higher ridership, if only they'd extert that extra bit of effort and get trains clean, moving on time, reliable, riding decently, and stations cleaned up.
Am I the only one who feels this way? Am I being unrealistic here?
I agree with Phil on many points. There has been improvement at the NYCTA. But I would have been amazed had there not been. They've had a huge increase in passengers and had they not done something to improve the situation for the riding public, the TA would have experienced total public outrage.
As for the LIRR - unless their management is overhauled - the situation is not likely to improve.
Amtrak on the other hand will get much better in the Northeast over the coming years. They have in fact done a clean up on their management. It seems quite possible that there will be many improvements with Acela in reducing time/distance and reliability of service - once they get it deployed.
I think Amtrak has learned from their mistakes. In contrast, I don't think the LIRR management even understands they've made mistakes.
The lack of a ROW isn't stopping them on the Van Wyck.
Aren't those cars going to be closer to light rail than to subways, and run above the expressway?
Doing that with a subway line on the LIE would require a line either high enough to get over the overpasses (think of the fun at the Van Wyck interchange) or running it underground, in which case, they might as well stick it under the service road, or use the LIRR alternative mentioned in earlier posts.
At one time or another there have been trial balloons floated about monorails and Mag-Lev trains down the center of the LIE. As one of the other Sub-Talkers pointed out --- look at the howling about the HOV lane expansion. Of course logically they should have put the posts and other stuff up while doing the HOV lanes so that we don't get inconvenienced twice in the future. Of course, fat chance
I'm getting a little carried away with the Mets because of their impressive victory over the Reds yesterday, but I'm realistic enough to know that a very tough road lies ahead and it starts with Randy Johnson tonight. Some of you may not believe this, but out here in California we're talking up a World Series between the Yankees and Mets. It would be a natural and the first subway series since 1956. There is no argument that New York fans are the most knowledgeable and rabid when there is a big series, and such a matchup would captivate the whole nation. When I was a kid those subway series' were an art form, even though the Yankees won almost all of them. We can pit the 7 train against the 4 train, and unite the subways with baseball. The odds of this happening are not great but as long as there is a chance
I'm riding it for all its worth. My heart tells me the Mets will make it
but my head says it's going to be a tough road.
I've been pulling for both the Mets and Yankees. I lean toward the Mets because I've always been National League guy. I do think the Yankees have a good chance of repeating. I'll be sure to get a subways series shirt.
Wayne
I'm a die-hard Yankees fan, but have respect for the Mets. Being here in Boston, it's hard being a Yankees fan with all the people rooting for the damn Red Sox! I'm hoping they'll screw up against the Cleveland Indians, so the Red Sox and Yankees don't have to meet up in round 2 of the playoffs (I remember that sweep back in September). As for the Mets, I wish them good luck against the Diamondbacks, and praying for a miracle if they face Atlanta. At least this would be the 3rd time facing Atlanta (if they make it passed Arizona), and maybe the 3rd time would be the charm. But anyways, making this subway-related, many New Yorkers would love a World Subway Series, and Bostonians would like a re-match from the 1986 World Series. -Nick
Same here: I've been a die-hard Mets fan since 1962, and although I have "hated" the Yankees since the Dodgers were in Brooklyn, I am rooting for both teams, so we can have a Subway Series once again. Let's go Mets! (and Yankees, too.)
Go Mets and Go Yankees. I'm all for a subway series. And I'll buy a subway series shirt. I was at the Met game this past Sunday. What a game!!
You know, I'm a Mets fan. I was at Yankee Stadium last night, wearing all my Mets gear, taking the abuse in the Bleachers. But I'm hoping there ISN'T a subway series. Why? Because I'll never get tickets to see the Mets play in it!
-Hank
Maybe the Mets can reactivate Mookie Wilson if that happens. I doubt if the Red Sox will bring back Bill Buckner.
Of course, the Mets have to get there first, and it won't be easy. We'll see how they do at Shea against the Snakes.
Hey the Braves Lost Today, Looking Good!!!!
The Mets seem to have recovered nicely but now is no time to have any type of lapse. It would be great to win Game #2 in Phoenix tonight because that would not only give us 2-0 edge, but we'd be returning home and have a little margin for error. So GO METS!!!
I'll be awake for every pitch, just like last night.
BTW, is their any kind of friendly (or unfriendly) rivalry between crews assigned to the 7 line and the D/4 lines?
Unfortunately, the Mets lost Game 2, but I think they deserve a lot praise. They played non-stop baseball and when they weren't playing they were travelling. Not to mention shutting down the Cincy Reds at Cinergy field and that's not an easy thing to do. I do like the Yankees, but in the event of a subways series - It's Mets all the way for me. Hopefuly it can be peaceful too.
Wayne
I'm planning a trip in the Spring with my father to NYC. I have convinced him the Subway can be safe. We ride the L everywhere, but NYC still has the reputation of the 60's and 70's for out-of-towners.
Anyway, my mother still says she would never ride the NYC Subway, but just me and my father are going.
The point is, tell me how to see all the attractions by Subway. Any good restuarants and places to stay near the Subway would also be helpful. I'm really curious to see how it is supreme over the CTA, according to the comments on this board.
I know we want to visit Coney Island. Is there Express service beyond rush hour outside of Manhattan, and what is the fastest way to get there.
The transit museum is another definite stop. Of course the double decker bus tour again, just to get reoriented with the history of everything.
Possibly a Knicks game.
Fodors recommends not to ride the subway after midnight, which I would agree with. I would give soembody comming to Chicago the same advice.
Thank you for your responces in advance and I'm looking forward to my 1st ever ride on the NYC Subway.
BJ
I think you are going to have to be more specific. As you are no doubt aware, our Subway has many lines. You would have to give an idea as to what attractions you are interested in, what kind of restaurants you like (I can recommend Ellen's Stardust at 51st St& Broadway (the outside looks like a subway car).
Most major hotels are near Subway stations or within a few blocks walking distance.
You might want to do a bit of web searching to decide where you want to go (try newyork.citysearch.com {note: no www in the front of this URL}).
You should send for a Subway Map before you come so you can get an idea of the lines and where they stop and when they operate (some lines don't run after certain hours or on weekdends - but almost all stations are covered 24 hours a day). The Subway Map (aka The Map)
is updated every few months or so.
You can get one by sending a self-addressed stamped (55 cents) envelope to:
MTA New York City Transit
Customer Service
370 Jay Street
Brooklyn, NY 11201
or you can go to the MTA's Website: www.mta.nyc.ny.us for online transit information.
Coney Island - During weekdays (except major holidays) you can thake the Q (6th Av/Brighton Express). It runs Express on the Brighton Line to Brighton Beach during Mid-day and Rush Hours. Change to the D at Brighton Beach for the 2 addtional stops to Coney Island. There is no Q service on the weekend. Take the D (6th Av Express/Brighton Local) all the way down.
The Transit Museum will be closing this month (October) for a 6 month renovation so it may not be open when you come to visit. The Transit Museum Gallery & Store at Grand Central Terminal is a good place to visit.
You can order Metrocards online at metrocard.citysearch.com (again no www). If you are going to order them do so about 2 - 3 weeks before your trip to allow for processing and mailing (usually takes 3 - 7 days by regular mail - but why take chances). You have similar farecards on the CTA so you should have no problem using our version.
(More info on Metrocards at http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/metrocard/).
Well - enough of my rantings. I am sure you will have more questions.
You can post some general questions here as long as they are within the scope of the discussions. If you send any to me by E-mail I will try to answer the best I can.
Allan (irt1904@aol.com)
I agree with my friend Allen, but let me give you a few hints of places easily seen via subways:
- Views of city: = Flushing line; Gowanus Cannel via F train; J/Z train in Brooklyn on Broadway over Williamsburg bridge
- Tourist spots: Statue of Liberty & Ellis Island; Twin Towers; Empire State Bldg.; China Town; Greenwich Village; A/C Carrier Intrepid; Museum of Natural History (exit right into museumA/B/C/D at 81st St); Central Park (also a small museum there); Childern's Museum in Flushing;
- Also at mid-towm: Times Sq.; Broadway Theaters; Rockefeller Center; St. Patrick's Church; Radio City Music Hall.
- Also at 116st St & Broadway = Columbia Univ., St. John The Devine, Grant's Tumb, Tom's Resturant (a.k.a. Steinfield).
- Shea & Yankee Stadiums
This is only a partial list of places easily available via subway. I'm a Long Islander & almost always use LIRR & subway/bus to visit some of the above.
Once you've got some idea of where home base is, we'll tell you HOW to get from point A to point B ... then your mom will think you using the subway because it's the fastest, most convient way to get their but you & dad will be enjoying unique stations, tracks, yards, etc.
I do this to my wife all the time, as she would much prefer to drive or take a bus, but as long as we get their in one piece she doesn't complain too much.
Mr t__:^)
Note the NYC Transit Museum in Brooklyn will be closing for renovations. I don't know when the exact date is.
BTW, the Q runs M-F 6am to 9:30 (9:30 if they changed the timetable back to before it terminated at 57th St.)
Thanks for the Advice. I'm still pondering possible places to go with the Fodors Book. It is really good, just a little vague on when trains run and which one is the fastest. I would recommend it for anyone comming to Chicago.
I know how to get from Home base to NY. We will be staying in Greenich, Connecticut and taking Metro North to Grand Central Station.
I generally understand the subway map, just the question of when certain trains run confused me a little bit. An 8 track terminal at Coney Island would scare any CTA rider! The most we have is 4 and that is only a couple.
I didn't find the times on the official MTA site, but they are listed on NYCSuway.org, which is cool.
For the transfer from the Q to the D to continue to Coney Island, just walk to the other side of the platform, stay on the same side, different platform??? I want to learn as much as I can before we go so we don't make it to obvious we are tourists. It worked really well and made it allot easier in L.A. this past summer.
Thanks again and in advance again
BJ
"An 8 track terminal at Coney Island would scare any CTA rider! The most we have is 4 and that is only a couple."
I don't know; Howard Street can be pretty damned confusing at times. (^: It's true, of course, that we have no 8 track terminals in Chicago, though.
I had no problems at Coney Island -- It's just a matter of paying attention to the signs. Not really any different than taking a Metra train out of C&NW or Union stations.
If I remember correctly (I could be wrong here), as you enter the station from Surf Avenue and go past the turnstyles and up the ramp, the platforms are as follows: B on the far left, then the N, the F, and the D at the far right.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
NO! You swapped D and N. From left to right it's B, F, D, then N.
I stand corrected.
I was a bit unsure of the D and the N; I had even typed it correctly and then changed it before I posted the message. Looks like I had it right the first time.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Another note about changing to the D after riding the Q to end up and Coney Island. Brighton Beach Terminal of the Q are two center tracks, you might get slotted to the Manhattan bound Express track, in that case you would have to go down and over to the Coney Island Platform.
Best case if you are unsure, change at Sheepshead Bay Road directly across the platform from the Q to the D. One stop away from Brighton you will not miss any high speed riding. More often then not, the Q will sit and wait outside of Brighton for a departing Manhattan Q and you would miss you connection to the D (been there done that).
>For the transfer from the Q to the D to continue to Coney Island, just walk to the other side of the platform, stay on the same side, different platform??? I want to learn as much as I can before we go so we don't make it to obvious we are tourists. It worked really well and made it allot easier in L.A. this past summer. <
Just walk across the platform at Brighton Beach.
BTW - When you get to Coney Island (Stillwell Avenue) make sure you stop in Nathan's for Hot Dogs and French Fries (you could almost say it would be sacriligeous not to). Nathan's is diretcly across the street (and slightly to the right) of the entrance to the train.
When you get to Grand Central be sure to stop at the Transit Museum Gallery and Store. It is to the left of the Station Mastser's office.
Hours: M - F (except certain holdays) 8 AM to 8PM, Saturday 10 AM to 4 PM. Closed Sunday.
Actually, t'would be best for you do transfer one stop early, at Sheepshead Bay. The Q alternates unpredictably which platform it arrives on at Brighton Beach, and therefore you have only a 50% chance of being across from the CI bound D as opposed to a Manhattan bound D. At Sheepshead Bay, it's a regular stop, so all trains always enter and exit in the same manner.
Thank you one again for the great info.
Now according the Fodors there are two Nathan's. One on the Board walk open May to September and one open year round near by. Which one are you talking about. I don't know if I mentioned, but we will be visiting during Spring Break, the last week of March 2000. ( I guess you could say they have a Chicago Hot Dog!!!)
Also, Is the entrance to Coney Island visible as you come out of the station? I assume it would be sine Fodors doesn't give directions from the station to the park. Also, are the amusement park(s) open during March???
Also, the station the Q terminates at, is it in a decent area? Fodor's describes Northern Brooklyn as being like the Affluent Lincoln Park section of Chicago, but really doesn't say much about Coney Island area other then it is there and worth the trip. I assume it would be safe since N. Brooklyn has such a nice description.
Madison Square Garden, what's nearby to grab a bite before a game??
Finally, exactley where is the Late Show with David Letterman located? I haven't been able to find it in the book, but I'm sure it is there. It isn't exactley easy to find a specific topic since it is over 400 pages!
Thank you very much again and if you ever come to Chicago, contact me first. There are many things to see like Pullman that the tour books and web sites don't mention that much about but are some of the best places to visit.
BJ
There are tons of places to eat near MSG, most of them directly beneath it in what is left of the old Penn Station. Most of them are overpriced (like everything else except T-shirts in midtown Manhattan - cheap T-shirts abound) but your chance of contracting food poisoning is only one in ten.
The David Letterman Show is in the Ed Sullivan Theatre, on the west side of Broadway around 54th street (I could be off by one or two blocks). Better bet: go see Cats at the Winter Garden, on the east side of Broadway around 51st.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Also, the station the Q terminates at, is it in a decent area? Fodor's describes Northern Brooklyn as being like the Affluent Lincoln Park section of Chicago, but really doesn't say much about Coney Island area other then it is there and worth the trip. I assume it would be safe since N. Brooklyn has such a nice description.]
Brighton Beach, the neighborhood where the Q terminates, is populated mainly by Russian immigrants and is an interesting destination in its own right. A walk along the Boardwalk is a can't-miss activity. You're also not far from the NY Aquarium, if you're into that sort of thing.
Unless you're blind, you can see Coney Island from the subway station, because it's IN CONEY ISLAND. You can look every way (even down) and that's Coney Island. There's no park (the green type, I assume you're talking about), there's a beach, and a boardwalk dividing it from the built up area.
Dining around the "Garden" is plentiful, if you want a good but cheap meal and decor is not a priority try one of the many Blarney Rocks, Stones in the area. If decor and a "dining" room is more your style you can try any of the following:
Eamon Doran's 33st. btw. 6th and 7th aves.
The Harp 32nd. " " " " " " " " "
Molly Wees 31st. and 8th ave on the corner
Club 31 31st. btw. 7th and 8th
Stay away from T.G.I.F.s and Charlie O's generic food and over priced.
If you are interested in seeing Letterman check the CBS website for information on how to get tickets.
Hope this helps.
p.s. If it interests you Madison Square Garden offers tours everyday, their website is THE GARDEN.com
Re: MSG ... Also accross the street are lots of fast food shops, and around the corner is Macy's ... you'll miss the REAL Santa as he'll already be back up North :-) At Herald Square there are some shops to spend your money and on 6th Ave one of our fine Express Coaches is waiting to wisk you into Queens ;-)
Mr t
I would say all you questions were answered with good information.
Thanks guys.
One tiny detail: if you go to the Museum of Natural History, take a B or C train to 81st St. The A and D do not stop there. It's a local stop, one of seven in a row, and if you find yourself on an A or D train, you'll experience one of the best express runs in New York - at the expense of missing your stop. Well, it's a good express run on an A train of R-38s, anyway.
I see that you managed to get tons of advice for your BIGGG NYC trip. Go to the Carnegie Deli on 7th Avenue near 55th Street and eat the big corned beef and pastrami sandwich and save some for me.
You need to take PATH to Hoboken and visit the park named after the late Frank Sinatra and his plaque in the sidewalk commemorating his birth place at 415 Monroe Street.
Ride the subways. It's super fun. Have fun!!!
How about the "F" to 2Av for Katz Deli?
THANK YOU TO EVERYONE WHO HAS POSTED THE GREAT INFO. ABOUT NYC FOR MY TRIP IN THE SPRING.
Eugenius D Train- Just making sure about Coney island. The CTA Green Line terminal in Oak Park is called Harlem/Lake after the intersection and is acually 1 1/2 blocks south of the intersection on Harlem and S. blvd. And if you exit the station wrong through the nicer and handicapped accessible entrance you end up on Marion St.
All I can say derogitory is that everything is much more expensive. A ride on Metra compared to the same distance on Metro North costs $2.75 compared to $9.00 .
Atleast the subway still only costs $1.50!
Thanks again
BJ
Well, the subway theoretically costs LESS than $1.50 in many cases.
1. If you buy a card for $15.00 or more you get a 10% bonus, so the rides end up costing only about $1.35.
2. If you get an unlimited ride card, the more you ride, the less it costs.
You should get unlimited rides IF:
One-day: You ride 3 times or more in one day (card costs $4).
7-day: You ride 13 times or more in one week ($17).
30-day: You ride 47 times or more in one month ($63).
For more information visit MTA and click on the Metrocard. Since One-day passes are not sold at booths, only at stores and vending machines, you can find out the stores from the MTA and the location of the vending machines here.
Hi all,
I was reading CTC Board - October 1999 (Issue #252) magazine and saw an article for "A day in North America 1999" that sets October 23rd for all railfans to take pictures that day and will be published later. This is simliar to books like "A Day in life of America, A day in a life of Canada, Russia, etc... (I forget exact title)
My idea is to propose "A day in NYC Subway" or whatever title would be. We set a date for subfans to take pictures around NYC Subway system including SIR.
Since printing books might be out of question and not alot of people would buy it, how about Web edition here on www.nycsubway.org? Any ideas? I would do it, but I live in Colorado and can't do this year due to vacation time was used up this year.
Cheers,
Michael Adler, aka Mailman Mike
Sounds good. Sort of a SubTalk Field Trip in which we all go somewhere else.... Depending on how many people are interested we could cover a lot of major sights/sites :-)
count me in but i need a outside site, no flash on the camera
I WILL BE IN NEW YORK FOR THE LAST WEEK OF OCTOBER TO THE SECOND OR THIRD OF NOVEMBER THIS 1999
where will the railfan subway photographers meet on this
23rd of october ?????????
i will be shooting still pictures and vidieos 8 MM
E MAIL ME AT salaamallah@yahoo,com
THANK YOU !!!!!
For anyone who rides the subways at night, what cars and how many are used for the...
63rd Street Shuttle - 21 Street Queensbridge to 2nd Avenue,
Lefferts Shuttle - Euclid Avenue to Lefferts Boulavard.
How many cars are used for the late night B Train shuttle from 36th Street to Coney Island?
The B Shuttle has four R68A Trains, each whit Four cars in them. But I know that the four cars are now couple into perneit unit so I guess that it is Four R68A, one unit set. Frankly Shuttle will run 2 Car R68 train on it. The #5 run 5 cars unit of R62 on it, I don't know how mary trains on it.
There are 2 R62 trains assigned to the 5, so four shuttle trains are available. However, I don't think more than 2 5 car sets are ever in service on that shuttle at any given time.
BTW, weren't all R68's linked into 4 car sets? Where are these 2 car trains coming from?
All R68s were to be linked with exception of the last group, 2916-2924, which are to remain single for the Franklin Shuttle. 2579's mishap is holding things up for her companions, so those cars that were to link with 2579 will remain single for a while longer.
I wonder how 2579 is?
-Stef
The Lefferts Blvd- Euclid Ave shuttle runs 3 trains I believe. They are maximum length for passenger service. Any car class available will run.
I've never seen an R38 used on the Lefferts Blvd. Shuttle, except for the end of the shuttle's run around 6 Am as an R38 is brought in from the yard to go into service. Only R44 trains get used for this line, at least that's been my experience.
How many cars?
8 car R44, 10car R32 or R38.
I know that...
R-26, R-28, R-29, R-33, R-36, R-33WF, R-36WF = Redbirds
R-32 = Brightliners
R-40 = Silver Bullet Head
Anything Else?
R-33WF and R-36WF were originally Bluebirds.
R-38: Silverliners.
BMT Compartment Car aka Bluebird
BMT Multi-Sectioned Cars: Green Hornet or Blimp,Zephyr,Mutlis
BMT D-Types: Triplexes
BMT Standards: Steels,67 footers,A,B,AX,BX,BT
IRT Low Votage; Low-V,Steinway,Flivvers
IRT High-Voltage: Gibbs,Deckroof, Hedley or Battleships
IRT Composites : Coppersides
R-11: The Million Dollar Train or the Super Duper Train
R-62's when new were referred to by the TA President as Silver Bullets but the name never caught on.
IRT R-Types after GOH were referred to by the TA President as Silver Foxes but were quickly called Redbirds by everyone else.
MNRR M-1's were called Metropolitans
MNRR M-2's were called Cosmopolitans
Larry,RedbirdR33
How about R110--- 22nd Century Car
Actually it's New Tech Train. I like the idea of R-62 as Silver Bullets.
My mother used to refer to the R62's as tin cans....especially after she saw how one was sliced to pieces after the Union Sq. wreck in 1991.
My sister also had a few nickames for the R16 in it's last days, but I can't print them here.
10/06/99
R-40S "SLANTS" , "SHOVEL NOSE"
R-68 unprintable!
E-60 electric loco's "FLYING SHOEBOX"
GG-1 " " "G MOTORS"
MP-54's "OWL EYES" "GOGGLE EYES"
" " arch roof cars "PING PONG "
Bill Newkirk
Actually, the Ping Pongs were the diesel hauled P-54 coaches. Built very light, they tended to bounce a lot when sandwhiched between heavier stuff. Hence the nickname. I doubt the arch roof MP-54s dais this, as they're self propelled (most were at least)
As for flying shoeboxes - you're insulting shoe boxes there!!!
Well E60, how about the AEM7 - Mighty Mouse
Or Mighty Motor(tm)
I was on one south from New Haven, 8 cars. Late (later than normal Amtrak late) I only remember hearing the engineer honk the horn twice then it seemed we were going at least 30mph. I swear the train took off like it was a bunch of NJ Arrows. All this from a little, quiet, unobtrusive box motor (well, it is a box, and it IS a motor...) It was the most impressive thing I've experienced on Amtrak in quite a while. Of course, we still ended up in NYC 15 minutes late. Arrrgghhhhh.
On a side note, I've noticed that the last few trips on Amtrak have seemed to achive higher speeds than last spring's trips. Conductor says they're cleared to 100 on parts of the New Haven line (10mph better than the last conductor I asked about this :), though I don't exactly believe him on this (I thought it was 75 in most places with a jump to 90 - Metro-North DOES hit 90 through Larchmont, I've actually timed as high as 95) - anyone know for certain what the speed limit(s) are on the New Haven line?
I still like Sweedish Meatball better, though Amtrak freaks (which is something I'm definately not - I take them because they're the least of the evils between hartford and NY, and NOT because I think train travel is a magical happy fun experience) seem to call them toasters, which i don't understand since they don't look like toasters, and they don't seem to throw off that much heat.
Oh yes, one neat thing about the E60 - stand and watch one that's just pulled a train into Penn. after about 5 minutes, the fans spin down and the roar gets quieter, though they still seem louder than the AEM-7s (which never really change in pitch or noise level), though not as loud as the P-32s are.
The AEM7's MOVE period. I've been at Princton Junction when a FAST MAIL comes by, sometimes 3 or 4 cars and it seems to be going faster.
The AEM7 can operate faster than 125mph but then they vibrate too much. They are limited to 125mph (overspeed warining and Automatic Train Stop enabled) with max of 6 cars/MHC's. E60's overspeeds are set to 100Mph but they never reach that with amount of cars they always pull.
Plus no deadman switch, 25 second alarm sounds if a control has not been moved or the circut broken with the control stand (lift hands off control) or a reset button pressed then 10 seconds before Automatic Train Stop is activiated. I know an engineer that eats his lunch hand off the controls, just pressing the reset every 25 seconds (or picking up a chip from the control stand).
The control stand is neat, empty are in middle for your timetable, on left is the throttle, on right is the horn and then train line brake then next to that is the engine brake. Far left are the radios and digital readouts for the motor and current draw. In front are a speedometer and more engine dials. There is also a second digital speedometer as well.
This is HIGHSPEED in America today. We'll see what Acela (Amtrack Customers Expect Late Arrivals) does....
" ... Acela (Amtrack Customers Expect Late Arrivals) ...."
Lou, That's the best one yet ... and it sure does fit !
Mr t__:^)
Wait a minute! I heard the nickname toasters applied to the GENESIS engines.
Henry J. Lineswitch
The P32 and the FL9ACs are 'Starships' on MNCR.
And after the re-routed 5 I rode this morning on the B'way IRT, the Redbirds should be changed to Rustbirds. I actually saw a windowframe SHAKING seperate from the train.
-Hank
The AEM 7's are known as the "Sweedish Meatballs"
How about "Silver Snails for the R-68s (sorry, Steve)
I think "blimps" is a good R-68 nickname, with all due respect.
I heard the BMT Multis called "Cheeseboxes" by Walther Broschart at a New York Division Meeting back in the 60's. Was this a term used by anyone else ever? Railfans, BMT motormen?
10/11/99
I think we have forgotten the nickname for the C.T.A. 6000's PCC subway cars. "SPAM CANS" I heard the LIRR M-1's were also given that name.
Bill Newkirk
Cheeseboxes? Road runners sounds better, as fast as they were.
R-38 as "silverliner" doesn't sound right. Maybe if it had a pantograph on it :)
Oh yes, and I'm surprised, nobody mentioned the slant (no wait, that's slant) 40, and the R-68's nickname :)
Oh yes, and the R-32s were the brightliners.
As for heavier stuff, I don't recall any nicknames for the MP-54s, though the MP-73 (75?) cars were "zips", and the Fairbanks-Morse (remember them?) locomotives the LIRR had were C-Liners. Not to mention (I read this in a New Haven forum) the FL-9: F%^$ing Lousey Nines! Or FL-4 1/2 - take your pick :)
The EP-5s were the "Jets" (someone also said "dim bulbs", which I guess refers to either a tendancy to suck power on third rail, or a tendancy to suck power as a result of an electrical short), and nobody knows what the Washboards were really called. And what's a MUt? Oh yes, the GG-1s were just G's, and the PRR MP-54s were the Paoli Local, no matter where they went. Path had passenger boxcars, but the Lacawanna's electrics were just that - electric.
Ok - anyone wanna guess who ran (and what are) the Flatbottoms, Rat's, BiPolars, Virginians, Big Blows, Sweedish Meatballs, Electroliners, Arrows, Blueliners, and U-boats?
U-Boats, diesel engines by GE with disgination U-###
Sweedish Meat Balls, an Amtrak engine made in Sweeden
Electrioliners, Chicago, North Shore & Milwaukee elect. interurban
Arrows, MUs on NJ Transit
Mr t__:^)
SEPTA has Silverliners (The equivalent of the NJT Arrow without center doors)
BiPolars were electric locomotives used by the Milwaukee Rd. through the Rockies and Cascades. They were equipped for "regenerative braking", which was feeding electricity back into the wire as they braked down hill.
-- Ed Sachs
I had heard the Lackawannas MUS called the Edison cars.....
Sweedish Meatballs = AEM7s
U Boats = All GE diesel locos starting witht the U18-U50
Virginians = the Electric locos bought by Penn Central (or was it New Haven?) to replace ailing New HAven Box electrics in freight service
Flatbottoms are probably the R-22 garbage I'm stuck with today, otherwise known as stagecoaches. I heard the term flatbottom used primarily on original equipment GE cars though. The GE U-22B (U-Boats) locomotives were used in both freight and passenger service.
How about:
R-10 - German Panzer Tank
R-68 - wallowing beached whale, hippopotamus
How about the H&M 'black cars'? Not to mention calling the H&M the "McAdoo Tunnels" (The term Hudson Tubes was official right?)
What about R142 & R143? Oh i got it let call "Millennium Silver Cars Or Millennium Silver Bullet or Millennium Steel. Which one is better & it not than what do you call R142 & R143.
Peace Out
Meaney
How bout just "beer cans"?
How about the "Invisible Wonders", because I haven't seen them yet and probably wont for a while ...
I think the R40M and R42 are Silver Bullet Heads - I simply refer to the regular R40s as "The Slants", it appears that many others do too.
I used to refer to the non-A/C Slants as "Hotboxes" (borrowing the railroad term for overheated journal bearing) because they were simply unbearable in the summertime. Now, they're quite the opposite (thanks to the folks at Sumitomo).
Wayne
Haven't seen anyone post a nick name for: R42, R44, R46, R62, R62A ?
(I'm not talking about something we make up here, e.g. R68 Hippo)
Mr t__:^)
The IND Queens motormen call the R46's "Cadillac." I call the R44's strait-jackets due to the ultra small cabs for us portly people. The real "sh**cans" are the CI rebuilt R42's (4840-4949). They are rattletraps, a very poor rebuilding effort compared to the M/K cars.
When I was younger, I learned that the R62's on the 4 were known as Silver Foxes, I still go by that name for the R62 and the R62a's today.........
3TM
Sorry, but "Silver Fox" referred to the Redbirds: Silver for the roof, and Fox for the fox red paint.
Incidentally, the overhauled slant R-40s were known as Silver Bullets when they first came back from Sumitomo. The original air-conditioned slant R-40s were overhauled after the non-air-conditioned cars, but were painted before they went out so they could be in the Clean Car Program; these cars were known as "Silver Bullsh*ts."
David
[When I was younger, I learned that the R62's on the 4 were known as Silver Foxes, I still go by that name for the R62 and the R62a's today.........]
Please remember that the R-32's were originally known as the
Brightliners and the blue R-36's were known as the World's Fair
SMEE cars. The original Redbirds were the red R-29/33's and
R-36's 9524-57.
10/09/99
When describing the old ALCO diesels belching thick black smoke they weren't awarded a nickname,but rather a short sentence:
HONORARY STEAM ENGINES !!
Bill Newkirk
Mr Paul Matus mentioned in an earlier post that the Franklin Avenue Line portal just north of Prospect Park is one of the last remaining railroad type portals on the subway system.
I came think of at least one other;the Dyckman Street Portal of the Fort Washington Tunnel on the IRT Contract I Broadway Boulevard Line.
Although the Dyre Avenue Line was built as a railroad operation the tunnel portals at Morris Park and north of Pelham Parkway look like regular subway ones.
What about where IND yard leads to the Jamaica Yard, I can't recall what they look like? Can anyone name some others?
Larry,RedbirdR33
What's the difference between an RR type portal and a subway type portal?
I would have to say that the railroad type portals usually were two tracked and had a rounded arch while the subway protals might be two or three track and cut at right angles with on adonement.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Right. I believe a railroad type portal is rounded (and that was related mostly to the fact that steam locomotives orginially ran through them). Subway type portals are squared at the top as like any other subway tunnel structure.
Doug aka BMTman
Wouldn't you get square with the cut and cover method and round with the boreing method in creating the tunnel?
That's correct. The 6th Ave. line has what I would call a combination of sorts north of 42nd St. After the tunnels were finished, grout was forced into place using a form which resulted in rounded corners. There are photos of this in Building the Independent Subway. You can see this on an F train headed out of 47-50th Sts. to 5th Ave. OTOH, the tunnels to 7th Ave. are the round, deep-bore style.
He thought it was the only one in the City, IIRC. The others are, Dyckman St under Ft. Washington hill, and St. George, Staten Island, under the federal building. Maybe some on the LIRR in Queens and Brooklyn?
-Hank
the path portal in jersey city has a rebuilt front is round like a rr
the path portal in jersey city has a rebuilt front is round like a rr
I spoke to someone in the Education Department at the Transit Museum today. He told me that there are no plans to run any antique equipment on the Shuttle, or anywhere else for that matter, on October 27th. Apparently, the reason for this is NOT, as some have speculated here, the refusal of TA workers to repair the asbestos-holding Standards..according to him, with the Museum getting ready to close for renovation, they just dont have the ability to do something like get out the Standards.
I find this sad...the greatest subway system in the world, celebrating (allegedly) its 95th anniversary, and no one can find the time to get these trains out, even for just a couple of runs, to commemorate the day? If not the Standards, then maybe some of the not-quite-as-old, but still srvicable trains to mark the occasion. But then, it doesn't seem that even the Transit Museum, the people who allegedly care about these things, give enough of a damn to do something.
P.S. The guy did say that they have advance plans for a "HUGE" celebration of the 100th anniversary, involving antique equipment among other things. From my point of view, this assumes the antique trains will still be serviceable in five more years...
That's good enough for me. You'll never know what might be on the road in five years, provided that there are people out there willing to work with the vintage car collection.
-STEF
10.06/99
Well five years from now,10/04/04 will be the Centeninial. The TA should do something to commemerate this milestone. It only happens once. Volunteers are fine, but will it meet the deadline? A centennial only happens once. The TA should see that the cars are up and running. Even if private contractors (MK etc) are involved. In fact that's a great idea. Those transit rebuilders need a challenge to prove they can do the job. Taking basket case museum cars and making them servicable once again and on time will open doors for fan trips,movie and publicity shoots.
Bill Newkirk
I believe you're referring to the Lo-Vs.
Oct. 27, 2004 will fall on Wednesday, as it does this year. One way or another, I will be there!
I will be up at Branford this Saturday for the subway days. Does anyone else plan on going? It would be nice to meet some of the other sub-talkers?
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'll be there.
I'll be there on Saturday. You'll know who I am because I'll be riding the R17 up and down the line, as well as wearing a black hat with the name "Kangol" on it. A hat is the best way to identify a person...
Cheers,
Stef
Well I don't know about you gents, but if the SubTalk Community gets together, Autumn in NY should be considered a SubTalk Field Trip. Pictures, pictures, and more pictures...
Thoughts are welcome.
-Stef
I may / may not be there depending on a) If I can get a ride up to Seashore this weekend (currently looks off) and b)If I feel like kicking myself out of bed early and taking the bus down to New Haven. (Amtrak? On a saturday morning? From Hartford? Forget it!) If I'm there, I'm the scrapy long haired 21 year old with glasses who may / may not be wearing snow camo pants, depending on Maytag availability this week!! Oh, and a black t-shirt. I don't think I have anything BUT black tshirts...
I'll know by late thursday / friday.
I'm thinking of going up on Saturday. I often
describe myself as a tall skinny Woody Allen. But
I'm most notable for making R9 compressor sounds and
air brake sounds. I'm going up to get in tune with
a real R9. I'm the kind of fan that other buffs
find embarrassing. Why does he have to act that
way? Actually I don't do those things. I listen to the sounds on my walkman. There's an easy listening station in New York City that plays subway sounds. It's a little hard to find on the dial though. My
offer is still open for the R9 tapes, and if anyone
wants a copy, let me know and I'll bring up some
copies. I'll probably take Metro North up and may
bring my bike along. So if you're driving watch out
for some dope on a bike.
I'll be there with the wife and nephew... well in order to get a car it comes with da nephew...Saturday afternoon I'll try to be there around noon 1pm. Can't miss me, I'm 6'8 and will have a young blond 6 year old nephew with me and I'll also be the one begging the wife for one more ride on the R17....
Trying to figure out something to do Sunday with the nephew up there.. I have yet to get my wife to agree to two days at Branford UGH!!!
Hey, Lou.
I'll see you at Branford! (Too bad FS didn't work out this week).
Doug aka BMTman
I'll be looking for ya Doug. I'll keep my eye out at Prospect Park for ya!!
Lou, Suggest to the wife Yale Univ. ... can probally get on a tour, or Barnum's Circus Museum just down the road a piece at Bridgeport. There you can also get the ferry back to Port Jeff., a nice ride.
There's also a steam museum at Essex and, as a last resort, you'll see malls all along 95 (could stop on your way back AFTER a Sunday AM at Branford).
Also if you take 15 vs. 95 back in the afternoon it's a real nice ride ... they call it the Green Tunnel.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks Thurstan,
We did Essex Steam train last year. NY Days and Thomas the Tank Engine ended up on the SAME Sunday. We did do the Port Jeff ferry back. My nephew got a kick out of it. We didn't tell him we were gonna do it, just drove up on the boat Hehe.
The Circus Musuem sounds good idea. Didn't think of it, I had an xboss who is now the CTO in Florida for them but never went to the one in CT.
I'll be arriving early, maybe in the company of one new CUSTOMER & one other member. Since I'm only qualified to RIDE the subways, at this point, I may be sitting next to you or between the tracks trying to throw a switch. In June the trolley conductors were doing that when Jeff & company took over their RxR to run the subways cars. It's a nice group of folks up their who love anything that rolls on steel wheels.
Funnest comment I heard their last October was by the Dispatcher: "We'll be running a subway car in a few minutes to Short Beach when the subway guys get through playing with their trains" (Jeff & friends needed to do a bunch of switching of cars to get a different car positioned on the high platform) ... it was a labor of love.
P.S. The turnstile in PCC 1001 takes tokens, but not MetroCards.
Mr t__:^)
Dave Wallace and I will be there on Sunday, along with my younger son. I expect we'll arrive a little after noon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll be heading up on Sunday afternoon with the wife. I was there in the spring and had a great time. It's not everyday you get to ride a piece of history.
Sorry about the question mark at the end of the last sentence. I meant to say that it would be nice to know if any one else is going to Branford this Saturday so that maybe we could meet there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
According to a story in the Boston Globe, the MBTA has suspended payments to Breda for the new Type-8 trolley cars. Only 13 have been delivered to date, with just five accepted in service. The plan had been to have 42 in service by this date.
The main items include unspecified propulsion system problems, faulty fault monitoring units (!), and troubles with the auxiliary power supply units. The MBTA says there are no safety issues, which is why the five cars accepted remain in service.
The MBTA has already paid Breda $110 million, about half of the value of the contract. No further payments will be made until all problems have been rectified, and deliveries catch up. Breda officials are in Boston "studying the problems."
Looks like the MBTA has hit a bit of a bump with the type 8s. But I'm glad they are still running the accepted 5. A few weeks ago, they had to take a type 8 out of service (while it was running) because the wheels/brakes were locking. Also, Breda needs to catch up on building the type 8s, apparently they are short staffed, which is part of the cause for the delay.
Also, I'v eheard rumours that the modifying of the type 7s is having it's own set of problems....anyone have info on that? -Nick
I'm all for 2nd Avenue and extending the 7 and the L and restoring Broadway Express, etc. But the latest political catch phrase seems to be Suburban Sprawl. So... jumping on the political bandwagon, what might be a major project which could be sold on the "fight Suburban sprawl" premis. Something like a North Hudson tunnel for Metronorth into Nayak or Orange County, or expansion/improvement of LIRR.
Any ideas?
Try a PATH train from the Meadowlands into the city Crosstown at 125 connections at 125th street stations, over the East River, connection with N at Astoria Blvd and then to Laguardia. Park and Rides at the Meadowlands and Laguardia.
Uh-oh! We are getting close to Fantasy Time again!:>)
Yes, I had once proposed such a line that ran from Newark Airport, Downtown Newark, Meadowlands, across 110th Street with connections at 8th Avenue and Lexington, and then to the N in Astoria before connecting to Laguardia and then one more stop at Shea Stadium.
I think this is a great Idea that satisfies a variety of transport needs including 2 airports and 2 sports complexes as well as everyday commuters.
I agree with you. I never thought of Newark and Shea but you're right that would be great. Do you agree that it should be a PATH?
Yes, PATH seems to make the most sence since they are already a bridge and tunnle and airport kinda thing.
How's about building a connection between SIRT and PATH via Bayonne? Or when/if that rail-freight tunnel between Brooklyn and NJ gets built maybe a train of PATH cars could be run through the tunnel during rush-hour periods.
Just some random thoughts that are more likely in Fantasy Land.
Doug aka BMTman
High Rise projects and Donald Trump's plans are the ultimate answers to suburban sprawl.
Do you like it?
Yes. In fact I think it's an embarassment that NY no longer has the world's tallest building. Technology allows us to build buildings tens of times taller than any which exist today. NY needs and deserves the world's first mile-high skyscraper. Only Donald Trump has the guts to build it and when he does, NY will once again take its rightful place in the annals of history.
Some people in Chicago may quibble with that assertion. After all, it was Chicago that invented the skyscraper. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL (and proud of it!)
www.NthWard.com
Who would want to go that high up? I'd hate to be on the top floor when the elevator broke down!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Or how about when the building is swaying on a windy day? I used to work on the 36th floor of Chicago's IBM building, and had to leave work early one day because of motion sickness during a severe thunderstorm with unusually strong winds. For a while I couldn't figure out why I was feeling so nauseous, then I realized the wind was hitting the broad face of the building and causing it to sway. Sure enough, I stood very still and could just barely feel the building moving -- It took about ten seconds for it to complete a full cycle.
Chicago's John Hancock Center is designed to sway 18 inches at the top during a 100 MPH wind. Every so often Chicagoans have a fascinating glimpse of how the wind flows around a tall skyscraper: On a foggy or cloudy night when the cloud ceiling is just at the level of the bright band of lights on the top floor of the Hancock Center, it's possible to actually see the wind as it flows around the building, creating whirlpools and eddies that alternate from side to side of the building and thus cause it to sway. It's really quite incredible to watch, and engineers spend millions of dollars trying to re-create that effect in a wind tunnel.
It's technically possible to build a mile-high tower, but not very practical. The cost would be so astronomical that nobody could ever hope to make a profit on such a venture. And just the commute from the ground floor to the top would be unbearably long. Elevators are limited to a speed of about 20 MPH due to passengers' ears popping with the change in air pressure, and on a building that height it would be neccesary to transfer between elevators a number of times; a single elevator shaft that tall would create stack pressures that would implode the doors at the street level. The plumbing systems would have to be on a superior level of sophistication as those used on Navy submaries.
Also, FAA regulations limit the height of towers to 2000 feet (Sears Tower is already 1454' to the structral top, plus a couple hundred feet more for the transmission towers); anything taller requires an act of Congress for approval. The transmission towers on the new building proposed for 7 South Dearborn will reach an elevation of exactly 2000 feet.
Skyscrapers happen to be a topic I feel even more passionately about than subways! :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
A few questions Dave.
You mentioned something about elevators. There is a gap between cars and the shaft wall. That would allow enough pressure to travel between the top and bottom "half" of the car. That would allow the pressure to equalize. Some tall buildings have a elevator well where the cars run up and down a large open space.
The problem as I see it would be fire or smoke. The building will have to be pressurize. If not a fire or a smoke condition would cause havoc for the top floors. If a window is broken, that would cause problems too. The stairwells would have to be broken up into sections.
If windows are broken high up or if the stairwell is too long extending from the bottom to the top of the building, just opening the doors and breaking windows would create a powerful vacuum. That would suck the air from the bottom of the building all the way to the top.
I think this exist for all high buildings due to thinner air near the top. May not be as powerful as a broken airplane window but you will really feel something.
Anyone can add anything?
It is not possible to pressurize a large building such as a skyscraper... Just too many joints and openings.
Regarding elevators, I was referring to stack pressures. This is the phenomenon when, especially on cold days, air rushes in at the ground floor and rushes out the top floors, using elevator shafts as the cunduit. I'm not sure of all the physics involved, but it's been compared to the way a smokestack or chimney works. This is the main reason tall buildings have revolving doors; there is always a continuous break between the interior and exterior of the building.
In the Sears Tower, there are also revolving doors at the entrance to the express elevator that leads to the Skydeck, as well as on the skylobbies between the express and local elevators.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Either the History or Learning Channel's "Modern Marvels" Series had a show last spring/summer about skyscrapers. It was very interesting---if you didn't catch it, keep an eye out for it.
There are ways to address the fire issues. Perhaps this is what you were alluding to, but in some tall buildings the stairwells become highly pressurized during a fire condition. If you open the door to a stairwell while the fire alarm is going off, you will be hit with a huge blast of air. I know this is the case in the 57-story building I work in. I'm not sure how these systems work, but I imagine it does the same thing for the elevator shafts, which should address any fire issues.
Maybe so, but the Flatiron Building in Manhattan was the first high-rise to have a steel framework, instead of massive load bearing outer walls.
That's not exactly true. Daniel Burnham (Flatiron Arcitect) built several buildings in Chicago pryor to the Flatiron (1903) Louis Sullivan operated out of Chicago, though his first skyscraper was, I believe, in St. Louis, Anyway, Modern Architecture, and the Skyscraper did come out of the "Chicago School" of architecture as a renasaunce of inovative buildings and city planning exploded onto the scene immediately following the Great Chicago Fire of the 1870s. In fact Daniel Burnham designed the New City Plan for Chicago after the fire.
Wrong!
The first skyscraper to incorporate a skelatal frame was the now-demolished Home Insurance Building in Chicago, designed by William LeBaron Jenny and completed in 1885. This was quickly followed by other skeletal-frame buildings by Jenny, Sullivan and Burnham.
New York's Flatiron Building wasn't built until 1902. Also, I may point out that the Flatiron was designed by a Chicago architect (Daniel Burnham) and is actually considered a classic example of the Chicago School of Architecture.
And Chicago makes better pizza!!!
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Yes, that's what I was driving at. I believe that Sullivan started out working for Jenny. Also, Sullivan designed true Skyscrapers in St. Louis and in Buffalo pryor to the construction of the Flatiron building in New York. Sullivan only designed one building in New York, the Bayard building which I think is on Bleeker street. 78 Bleeker comes to mind.
Incidentally, I am writing this from inside the Flatiron Building.
[High Rise projects and Donald Trump's plans are the ultimate answers to suburban sprawl.]
Projects like these don't really deal with the sprawl issue at all. Most of the proposed solutions to suburban sprawl call for encouraging higher-density residential and employment development in and near urban cores. So far so good. But a highrise co-op on the Upper East Side can be said to combat sprawl only if we assume that most of the buyers would otherwise purchase houses in ever-more-distant exurban developments. I find that a rather difficult assertion to accept. Affluent people who want to live in Manhattan aren't going to be interested in some subdivision in eastern Suffolk or Monmouth County or some equally distant area.
Housing developments in the outer boroughs or nearby suburbs might indeed be antidotes to sprawl in the sense that they might be competing for buyers with distant areas. Of course, the New York area has long since reached such a high level of development that there generally isn't much available land for these closer-in developments, and what it available is too expensive for most people. Suburban (or, more accurately, exurban) sprawl is nearly inevitable in this region. About the only way it would be stopped is if the economy deteriorated to the point that new construction dried up. I highly doubt anyone wants that.
We often throw around words such as Suburban and Exurban without having exact definitions.
My take on these terms is:
Suburban - An area where people live outside a city and which is close enough to the city so that the people who live there could commute to the city everyday for work
Exurban - An area where people live outside the suburbs of a city which is too far away from the city for people to commute to the city everyday but is close enough to the suburbs for people to commute to the suburbs everyday to work.
I heard these definitions:
Suburban: Were most local streets have multiple outlets, principal streets are part of a public transport corridor (usually bus) and most stores are standalone with parking in the rear. Sidewalks are available on the main streets and many side streets. Houses usually come with a small property all around and sometimes houses are in rows (attatched, semi-attatched). Many parts of the outer boroughs would be considered suburban, but aren't because of their political jurisdiction.
Exurban: Local streets have few outlets, main streets are usually empty and contain no transport, sidewalks are rare. Houses are usually on properties that might be as large as the house.
OOPS! Forgot to mention that in exurbia, subdivisions are often spaced farther where in suburbia they usually border. And in exurbia, parking lots are IN FRONT of the common store. Although that last one has me puzzled (strip malls with front parking aren't considered exurban are they? or most regular malls?).
[re definitions of suburbs vs. exurbs]
Geographical distance from the center city seems to be the main distinction between suburbs and exurbs. That isn't to say that there's a clear dividing line, you can't draw a circle with a radius of X miles around the city and use it as a reliable marker, but in looking at a particular community it's often possible to make the distiction. Using Long Island as an example, it's reasonable to say that Manhasset is a suburb while Patchogue is an exurb - even though Manhasset more neatly fits the physical description of an exurb that you spelled out in your message while Patchogue is more like a suburb - based on their distances from Manhattan. It might be possible to make a more precise distinction based on the percentage of residents who commute to the center city.
I would say a suburb looks directly to a specific city as its economic base--the majority of income comes from people who live in the city, or have jobs that service those who do. An exurb may or may not have a direct relationship to the nearest city, but could stand on its own.
Looking to transit, I might draw the borderline on Long Island depending on where the commuter zone ends: a line from Port Jeff to Ronkonkoma to Speonk.
Terms like suburb become less meaningful as the economy shifts. When I moved to Long Island almost 30 years ago, except for defense contractors (mostly Grumman) better paid clerical/technical work seemed to be mostly back offices of NYC companies. Now there is a new (at least for LI) phenomenon: companies (mostly techs) that draw on the skilled workforce that would otherwise have to work in a core city. So this phenomenon encourages growth that is "none of the above."
What about residential and commerical development of the Jersey waterfront with a #7 or L train stop on the Jersey side?
Or PATH expansion for that matter?
What about a Subway link to Staten Island combigned with residential development of that area?
[What about residential and commerical development of the Jersey waterfront with a #7 or L train stop on the Jersey side?
Or PATH expansion for that matter?
What about a Subway link to Staten Island combigned with residential development of that area?]
You're correct, the Jersey waterfront is probably one of the very few remaining areas that are both close to the urban core and available for development at (semi-) reasonable prices. It would be an antidote for suburban sprawl if the residents would otherwise be looking in the distant suburbs. I doubt that's really the case, however. My suspicion is that most new residents on the Jersey waterfront are "urbanophiles" who've been priced out of Manhattan and have no interest in commuting two hours each way from the outer-ring exurban areas.
As far as Staten Island is concerned, it's my impression that most of the new development is really more suburban than urban. At least, the commuting times generally aren't what you'd expect for city housing.
Why hasn't SIRT expanded into Manhattan? They should've constructed a tunnel for SIRT or a subway connection to Manhattan. The ferry is so old fashioned, and now that we're gonna be in a new centry perhaps Staten Island should finally have rail access to Manhattan.
Well, they actually did begin construction on a tunnel to Brooklyn a long, long time ago, but that project got scuttled for a variety of reasons. I doubt they'll ever consider another tunnel under the harbor at this point in time, regardless of its destination. There are enough NIMBYs on Staten Island (and elsewhere) to keep that from happening.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems that a freight rail tunnel is on the way. Once built, someone will no doubt notice that it is under used and suggest putting passenger traffic through it part of the day.
They still haven't decided whether the tunnel will run right out of Greenville, or come from Statan Island. There are advantages and disadvantages to both routings. Running it from SI to Brooklyn will keep it entirely within the city, but running it from Greenville is more direct. Considering how deep the tunnel will have to go, it will be in no way conveinient for commuters; in any case, a direct line to Manhattan would be the prefered route for a cross-harbor commuter tunnel.
-Hank
A tunnel might be viewed as a (monstrously expensive) solution in search of a problem. In other words, there's really no compelling need for one. Staten Island has been growing quite nicely without any rail transit connection. You should see the amount of residential construction in the southern part of the island. All of the people buying these houses obviously have done so with full knowledge that there's no tunnel to Manhattan or elsewhere. Either they're satisfied with the SIRT/Ferry combination or the express buses, or they don't work in Manhattan. Absent any overwhelming clamor for a tunnel, there's little point in considering one.
A freight tunnel is critically needed. It's grotesque that the most transit-oriented city in the nation depends on trucks for almost all its goods.
The Giuliani Administration is the first in 3/4 of a century to take this seriously (I've met the responsible City official in this area) but the issue (New York's standing in the national freight market) os a big yawn to most everyone else.
Once the freight crosses the harbor, it will still have to travel on a truck. A tunnel would remove some trucks from the Staten Island Expressway and George Washington Bridge, and perhaps (at the expense of passenger service) from the LIE, but not from anywhere else. This will free up more road space for cars.
The only way to make it pay is if you had drive-on drive off service similar to the Chunnel, so trucks in addition to trains could travel across by rail. Truckers would take their break and ride, rather than pay bridge tolls and sit in traffic.
Why don't we take the reverse of that theory, then.
Get rid of all railroads, which will force more trucks on the highway, which will reduce space for cars, so everyone will then ride mass transit.
Wow, that was easy!
(On the serious side)
Sure, why not a chunnel arrangement for trucks.
The plan to get rid of trucks and cars is the right one. Once acomplished, lanes of NYC streets should be given back to pedestrians, and cyclists. If it were me, I would reclaim 4 lanes of park Avenue, and install greenery, bike exclusive lanes, and a pedestrian promenade. I would also take back 1 lane of 5th Avenue between Madison Square Park and 57th Street and 1 lane of 6th between Herald Square and 57th Street and add 3.5 feet of sidewalk space on either side. That will disuade motorists from filling in for all the missing trucks.
Also, what about a super hydorfoil ferry service for trucks to bypass the city by crossing the bay and the Long Island Sound???
Nope. They move in, buy themselves an SUV, buy their 17-y-o a brand-new Honda, Toyota, Mazda, or 5-yo Blazer, and then bitch about how there's no TA x-bus service way out there.
-Hank
10/07/99
Getting back to that idea of resurecting a passenger train tunnel from Staten Island to Brooklyn. Finishing a short tunnel to 59th St and 4th Avenue would be a long ride to Manhattan. Don't forget the Montague St tunnel or the rickity manhattan Bridge. Next there are those unused tunnel pockets at Whitehall St,but that tunnel would be 5 miles long and cost millions and take years to build! A sort of mini "Chunnel".
Now let's say they actually build the tunnel,I know,were talking fantasy here. That would affect S.I.Rwy by making changes to the Tottenville line and rebuilding the north shore Arlington line too. Forget the South Beach line,some of the R.O.W. is already built on and I can't see a grade crossing on the Verrazano Bridge toll plaza! If the subway from Manhattan to Staten Island were reality,would those B&O signals remain? And how about the Staten Island Ferry? Greatly curtailed or eliminated.
But don't worry,Bill Newkirk is just fantasizing. We're just getting started fantasizing about the Second Avenue subway! The abbreviated version!
Bill Newkirk
P.S. I remember back in the sixties when riding the S.I.ferry boats that the map of Staten Island located near the restrooms not shown the Tottenville branch but also the South beach branch along with the Verrazano Bridge plaza!! Now they were fantasizing!
Most of the traffic congestion related to suburban sprawl is caused by suburb to suburb commuting. Additional mass transit into Manhattan is not going to relieve it one bit. The interstates in NJ for example were designed with the commute into Manhattan (or Philadelphia) in mind. But you still won't find too many NJ residents complaining about being able to work in NJ, and thus not having to pay NYS non-resident taxes, and not having to deal with NJT every day. These communities are sprawling because people and businesses want to locate there, it's called the free market. Get used to it.
[Most of the traffic congestion related to suburban sprawl is caused by suburb to suburb commuting. Additional mass transit into Manhattan is not going to relieve it one bit. The interstates in NJ for example were designed with the commute into Manhattan (or Philadelphia) in mind. But you still won't find too many NJ residents complaining about being able to work in NJ, and thus not having to pay NYS non-resident taxes, and not having to deal with NJT every day. These communities are sprawling because people and businesses want to locate there, it's called the free market. Get used to it.]
You've touched upon the main weakness of mass transit. It's mainly suitable for moving people in and out of a central point. With commuter rail in the NYC area, Manhattan is of course that central point. But transit is largely unsuitable for travel between multiple origins and multiple destinations, which is what you have with suburb-to-suburb commuting. I'm as much of a transit advocate as anyone, yet I recognize these limitations.
There is no way of stopping suburb-to-suburb commuting, at least no ways that would be acceptable in a free society. Making the cities more attractive places in which to do business is the best we can do.
(Its the free market, get used to it).
Actually, its zoning and infrastructure policy. The free market would provide denser development than what we get today. In fact, on Staten Island people are screaming for the city to stop the free market and limit the density of development on the South Shore.
What happens in New Jersey is what my profs at Rutgers call the "infrastructure snake dance." Rural America is heavily subsidized -- you can't build a road with 1/4 of a lane, or 1/4 of a phone wire, or a school with 1/4 class per grade, so city and suburban residents have been taxed to provide a minimum level of service in the countryside. "Natural capacity" also allows rural dwellers to live without some infrastructure -- they can have septic and wells instead of water and sewer. So there is all this unused infrastructure and natural capacity out there ready to be used.
So developers start building on the exurban fringe. At first they just use up the unused capacity, and everyone is happy. But they keep building.
Pretty soon the schools are overloaded, the two-lane roads are congested, the schools are overcrowded, the groundwater is polluted, etc. A year ago I tried to drive home from the Catskills on route 23 in NJ instead of the Thruway. The traffic backed up through several light cycles in several spots, and it took me hours, on a Sunday. Everyone is upset about "sprawl."
So now you need to four lane the roads, bring in public water and sewer, build schools, etc. Who pays? City residents used to, but not so much anymore. Country people don't fell like, and cannot afford, to pay high local taxes for urban services. So you get a battle between the original country residents, the first newcomers, and the "new" newcomers and their builders.
It aint the market. It's a mess.
My south shore friends can scream all they want because this last housing boom has made the whole downzoning issue virtually moot. At least here in New Dorp we are zoned R3-1, mostly ranches and a few semi-s. Oakwood is still zoned R2. The fault here lies with a greedy NYC desperate for property taxes. This goes on and on and on. There's no great answer is there?
Here in Nassau county though, traffic does seem to concentrate on the Nassau HUB, which is centered around Roosevelt Field, and the Mineola, Hempstead, Garden City, and Westbury area. It seems that alot of people in the county work and shop in this central region. Perhaps mass transit would really work in this area, with subways/rail links from different parts of the county, and a light rail HUB system.
Traffic is becoming near gridlock in the Nassau HUB, and something has to be done about it, and the hell with the NIMBYs.
Not especially, but anything is better that car culture and suburban sprawl. There must be some better ideas out there.
I don't agree that anything is better than car culture and suburban sprawl.
If anything were better, there'd be a lot less suburban sprawl.
A favorite book of my older daughter's (mine, too) is The Little House by Virginia Lee Burton, a children's book. It's the story of a cottage which starts out on a dirt road way out in the country and wonders what the Big City is like. Over the years the house no longer needs to wonder. Bit by bit, the City comes to it. First a paved road, then tract housing, then trolleys, then huge office buildings, and elevated line and a subway.
Now I know that may sound like railfan heaven and the book itself is probably more about youthful dreams and the development of values, but I grew up in Brooklyn with a scenario that was a bit of a microcosm of the book.
One family houses became two family. A school was built across the street and all the street trees died, never replaced. Two family houses gave way to row houses on smaller and smaller lots. Individual houses were torn down as more blocks became solid rows of apartment houses. The Parade Grounds, once a wide open ball and recreation field was divided, fenced and paved.
You might consider that intense human concentration is not everyone's cup of tea. The typical house in my "sprawly" suburban area is on a 50 x 100 lot and more and more houses are being shoehorned into every available space. Even at this level of density, there is still room for plants and trees, birds and squirrels, even some bats, raccoons and possums. But for how long?
A lot of Brooklyn was like that not too long ago. Do you wonder why some people move out?
The people pushing anti-sprawl politically are hypocrites. They say they don't want people spreading out onto undeveloped land. But whenever someone proposes redevelopment in the city, they oppose it.
Who are these people you are talking about? Do you have any specific examples?
("Environmentalists against city development -- who are they).
The Sierra Club and NRDC come out against just about every possible reuse of disused industrial land in NYC, except for parkland. And the Brooklyn Heights crowd demands that redevelopment in Downtown Brooklyn be stopped because of too much traffic and air pollution (their current objection is to the new federal courthouse and a movie theater). Every NIMBY nut in the city hides behind "the environment."
And here on the north shore, the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor opposes every effort to revitalize run down industrial sites. They oppose ferry being built at Glenwood Landing site. They opposed a supermarket in the wasted acres of Roslyn. They say they "oppose irresponsible development" but they have opposed every revitalization effort for sites in Glen Cove, Glenwood Landing, and Roslyn.
-------
Sick of CSHH controlling the agenda and supressing growth in Glen Cove
visit http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
-------
[You might consider that intense human concentration is not everyone's cup of tea. The typical house in my "sprawly" suburban area is on a 50 x 100 lot and more and more houses are being shoehorned into every available space. Even at this level of density, there is still room for plants and trees, birds and squirrels, even some bats, raccoons and possums. But for how long?
A lot of Brooklyn was like that not too long ago. Do you wonder why some people move out?]
To some extent, I agree with what you say - high density's not everyone's cup of tea, and losing the last bit of "nature" in a suburban neighborhood does diminish the quality of life. I tend not to give the squirrels and rabbits in my neighborhood much thought. But I'd miss them if they were gone.
Yet despite all this, I have a very difficult time criticizing development, indeed I get a twinge of satisfaction every time I see a foundation being dug. Presumably this is a case of past experiences influencing present reactions. I lived in Connecticut during the early 1990s when the "Great Recession" shattered the state's economy and the lives of its residents. Not to sound melodramatic or anything, but it was a time when everything was in decline except despair. When the houses that didn't have "for sale" signs in the front yard had signs announcing foreclosure sales. When the few fast-food places that advertised minimum-wage job openings were bombarded by _hundreds_ of applicants. When it seemed like a steady parade of businesses announced that they'd be relocating to other parts of the country. And when, germane to the sprawl issue, there was virtually no construction activity whatsoever. So while I'm sorry to see the loss of our remaining open spaces, I'm eternally thankful that there's enough economic vitality for the open spaces to be threatened.
A good book that would go along well with this discussion has just come out: "Of Cabbages and Kings County: Agriculture and the Formation of Modern Brooklyn". The authors are Marc Linder & Lawrence S. Zacharias. The publisher is University of Iowa Press ISBN 0-87745-670-4.
It deals with the politics, real estate greed and sociology that went into turning Brooklyn from one of the largest vegetable farming centers into a urban branch of NYC. Should be an interesting read.
My office got an advance copy so it may not be available just yet.
Doug aka BMTman
[A good book that would go along well with this discussion has just come out: "Of Cabbages and Kings County: Agriculture and the Formation of Modern Brooklyn". The authors are Marc Linder & Lawrence S. Zacharias. The publisher is University of Iowa Press ISBN 0-87745-670-4.
It deals with the politics, real estate greed and sociology that went into turning Brooklyn from one of the largest vegetable farming centers into a urban branch of NYC. Should be an interesting read.]
Thanks for the tip, it does sound worthwhile. Amazon has it, BTW, and it's even given a ranking on their best-seller list.
Of course, the ranking is #414,177 :-)
James Howard Kunstler has published two books, The Geography Of Nowhere and Home From Nowhere, about the scourge of suburban sprawl and what can be done about it. I recommend 'em both.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I'm not sure what time, I think it was around 3, there was a sick passenger at Atlantic Avenue. So the D's were rerouted to 4th Avenue Local, West End Local. I'm not sure about the Q's. I know that at least that 1 D reversed at Coney Island from West End to Seabeach.
It seems that improving and streamlining Urban infastructure is the soulution. Makng city life more desirable for Home and Business.
So my question is: What major project could take New York to the next level of effective and balanced use of its limited space and resources, much in the same way that the Subway and the Elevator took New York to a new level 100 years ago? Who has an idea that will transform the city into a more idealic version of what it is today?
I prefer to hear from the creative people and not so much the Poo Pooers.
The original models of construction of mass transportation in New York City were aimed at reducing the density of housing in the central city. People may be surprised to know that at one time Manhattan had a population of over two million--when there was no more room to put up tenaments, they put up new tenaments in the backyards of existing tenaments.
But their objective was to disperse this population--to lower the core density, while still enabling people to work in the city, which meant in term that the city's business dominance would be maintained.
So the horsecars and coaches made it possible for people to live further uptown, further than they could walk to work. The elevated took people further uptown still. The IRT began to disperse people into The Bronx, and the BRT spread people further out in Brooklyn.
So I think the answer to your question as it is posed is to abandon new subway construction (except for essential unfinished links and infrastructure repair) and follow historical precedent by building high speed regional rail--not to close in Long Island, Westchester or New Jersey, but to where the land is still cheap and available.
I'm not sure if I would or would not advocate this, but it follows the logic of the City's entire transportation history.
A good answer. Thanks. And along the lines of what I was driving at too!
Any other revolutionary ideas???
Lots! But I'm saving them up for my best-selling book, which should be around by the millennium!
I won't commit to which millennium. ;-)
[So I think the answer to your question as it is posed is to abandon new subway construction (except for essential unfinished links and infrastructure repair) and follow historical precedent by building high speed regional rail--not to close in Long Island, Westchester or New Jersey, but to where the land is still cheap and available.]
Build the high speed rail to where? You have to go way outside the city in most directions to find cheap and available land - eastern Suffolk County, northern Orange County, western New Jersey, even to parts of Pennsylvania. Most of those areas already seem to be developing even with the mediocre rail service that's available. I'm not opposed to better and faster commuter rail service, not by any means, but I don't quite see what it would accomplish in terms of the city's development.
It would direct commercial development to the City rather than to satellite employment areas, binding these areas more closely the City and vv.
It would also have these areas develop more around rail than road transportation.
To shift gears, though, the arguments about where and how to develop obscure a larger point: World population is growing and the additional people have to go somewhere. This issue seems to be ignored.
(World population growth)
What the anti-development crowd doesn't understand is that if incomes rise, you need more space for the same amout of people. The average house built has risen from 1,500 s.f. in 1970 to 2,500 s.f. today. NYC has added one million housing units since WWII, but very few people. The average office worker has 150 s.f. in 1960, vs. 300 s.f. today.
Same thing with transit. Forget growth. We need the 2nd Avenue Subway and other improvments to improve the quality of life.
What about High Speed to Staten Island? It seems that this would spark a boom of development in the Forgoten Borough and do wonders for New York Housing overall. People who are willing to live in Brooklyn, Queens and The Bronx would have a whole new and giant Borough to populate, (supply and demand) Richmond Real Estate would skyrocket, and the cost of real estate in all outer boroughs whould be more evenly distributed as there would be a whole new City option for people who can't afford to live in Manhattan.
Of course the political hurdles for this are insurmountable but remember I'm trying to avoid the negative and spectulate on real and dynamic ideas.
(Rail leads to more development in Staten Island)
Staten Islanders are fighting to keep development out. Since they have clout in the Giuliani Administration, they are getting their downzoning way. There isn't much vacant land left, and the zoning will not allow that much more development. Where it does, expect downzonings.
Note that by modern suburban standards, or even the standards of most cities, the population density of Staten Island is VERY HIGH. In South Richmond, the community wants a new R3X zoned mapped over the entire area. I believe it allows 2 family houses on 50 X 100 foot lots. That's as many as 17 units per acre. How many suburbs allow that? Or allow two-families?
Staten Island had just under 400,000 people in 1990. My guess is the borough tops out less than 500,000, spread over an area the size of Brooklyn. The density is not high enough for rapid transit without deep subsidies. SIRT covers less than 10 percent of its costs.
That's why I think an expanded system of express buses, on dedicated ROWS wherever possible (including lanes on the Verrazano and Gowanus and the current SIRT and abandoned North Shore Line) is the way to go, especially if fuel cell/electric buses replace the smoky diesels.
[Staten Islanders are fighting to keep development out. Since they have clout in the Giuliani Administration, they are getting their downzoning way. There isn't much vacant land left, and the zoning will not allow that much more development. Where it does, expect downzonings.]
Dunno, the southern part of Staten Island still seems to have quite a bit of vacant land available even with all the rapid development it's experiencing. Assuming zoning doesn't change, I'd say there's probably enough land for at least a few more years of continued development at the present pace. And that's not counting teardowns (replacement of existing houses with fancier new ones), which I believe is happening to some extent.
[The density is not high enough for rapid transit without deep subsidies. SIRT covers less than 10 percent of its costs. That's why I think an expanded system of express buses, on dedicated ROWS wherever possible (including lanes on the Verrazano and Gowanus and the current SIRT and abandoned North Shore Line) is the way to go, especially if fuel cell/electric buses replace the smoky diesels.]
I agree with you there.
When my friend and his wife moved out to SI, they looked at the southern end and decided against it, because the travel time (one to Manhattan, the other to Brooklyn) was just too long. That may be one reason why the southern end still has a semi-exurb look in a few areas (and if anyone ever talks about the hectic New York City life, take `em to Tottenville)
North Shore of Staten Island is in clear urban decay though, especially around the ferry terminal. Nicest areas in my opnion of Staten Island are in the vicinity of Eltingville, Staten Island Mall, and Great Kills.
Staten Island is more like Long Island than NYC, except for the northern part. Even had to wait awhile for a bus last time I went, just like Long Island. Next time I'll get the bus schedules before I go!
Much of the open land on the south shore of Staten Island is parkland, and is owned either by the city or the state. What other land there is has been designated protected wetlands. The big zoning arguement that is going on now has to do with Mt. Loretto, which i believe is owned by the archdiocese. That land is desperately wanted for development.
-HAnk
One of the ideas that has actually been implemented with some sucess has been the creation of a regional growth boundary in Portland, Oregon. Basically, they draw a line around the metropolitian area and say you can build all you want within the line, but don't even think of putting that new subdivision outside the line.
As I understand it, this has led to Portland having one of the nicest central business districts and highest standards of living of any medium-sized city. I'd be curious to hear from people who have a bit more knowledge or experience with the Portland example.
NYC and Chicago could each benefit from such a solution. Of course, it would never happen politically; at least in Illinois, the state politicians are dominated by suburban interests and developers.
If it were up to me, I'd demolish everything to the west of the Tri-State Tollway. :-)
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Good bye, Hoffman Estates. So long, Schaumburg! But demolish Elgin? I grew up in Elgin 100 years ago, when it was a separate town, and surrounded by dairy farms. I traveled to Chicago on the Chicago Aurora & Elgin interurban. It was all open country between Elgin and Wheaton, with the exception of Wayne, a flag stop. Now Elgin is on the outer perimeter of Chicago's sprawl. Get rid of suburban sprawl, but at least keep the original bedroom suburbs on the commuter rail lines.
Fair enough, Elgin can stay...
But Naperville must be destroyed!
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
"Naperville must be destroyed!"
Delenda Naperville est, Senator? (^:
Not to be picky, but isn't Naperville as old or even older than Chicago? Mind you, I have no objection to getting rid of all the "office campuses" along the I-88 corridor. I've got no problem with people living in the suburbs -- so long as they work in the Loop and commute to work on Metra. (^: Seriously, the suburbs weren't a real problem until they started building expressways and lining them with rambling office complexes.
Delenda Naperville est, Senator? (^:
OK, everybody ... if you waana continue this discussion, git yer togas on!
[Delenda Naperville est]
Isn't Delenda Naperville est more accurate? I had thought the original quotation was Cartago Delenda est.
[I grew up in Elgin 100 years ago]
Is it just me, or does everyone else think there's a typo?
No typo, just an exaggeration. Actually, I was born in Elgin the day after Germany marched into Poland and lived there until 1958, one year after the CA&E abandoned its passenger service, which occurred July 3, 1957. It's hard to believe the finest interuban on earth has been gone 42 years.
Sorry George, but the finest interurban on earth has been gone 36 years by my count.
"Route of the Electroliners"
I don't know Illinois geography but please spare Oak Brook Terrace, I have a lot of co-workers out there!
I'll give them time to move their offices to the Loop. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[One of the ideas that has actually been implemented with some sucess has been the creation of a regional growth boundary in Portland, Oregon. Basically, they draw a line around the metropolitian area and say you can build all you want within the line, but don't even think of putting that new subdivision outside the line.
As I understand it, this has led to Portland having one of the nicest central business districts and highest standards of living of any medium-sized city. I'd be curious to hear from people who have a bit more knowledge or experience with the Portland example.]
Portland's Urban Growth Boundary has been discussed in great, indeed excruciating detail on Usenet (principally on alt.planning.urban). As best I can tell, the UGB is not an impregnable barrier - some development does occur outside of it - but is rigid enough to have had the effect of making housing within Portland considerably less affordable than would otherwise be the case.
I just thought that I should report that the first CSX Blue and Yellow painted unit has appeared at Oak Point. A switcher numbered 1181 now resides at Oak Point. As always the usual batch of B23-7s were hanging around in CR Blue with CSX numbering.
CP SD40-2s could also be found enjoying their cold, but sunny day in the yard.
LIRR stuff - none to be found at Oak Point although I've had someone tell me a few more units (powerpacks presumably) have disappeared from the Morris Park facility in the week following the ERA excursion.
Thoughts Are Welcome As Always,
Stef
[ LIRR stuff - none to be found at Oak Point although I've had someone
tell me a few more units (powerpacks presumably) have disappeared from
the Morris Park facility in the week following the ERA excursion. ]
Also, a whole bunch of Parlor cars have been taken away from "death row" in front of Hillside, and been moved to Morris Park. This may be in preparation for the URHS parlor-car dinner train, or it may be first stop on the way out..
Two items of interest: 1) Diesel 79 was pushing a flat and two rider cars, RD323 and RD360 southbound on the 2/5 lines last night. At least for me it's an odd sight being that short work trains don't usually utilize 2 riders back to back.
2)They've done it again! For a third time another Corona Invasion of the mainline has taken place. Two sets came up - one 5 car set with an R33 single on the end, and a seven car set with another R33 single on the end. It's always refreshing to see something new and something different...
I'd still like to know what the deal is with the R36s. It sounds like they may be on the way over to the mainline to serve out their final years.
-Stef
10/06/99
Stef,
Did I read you right? Some Flushing cars along with a single unit was spotted on the Mailine? Which line was that running ?
Bill Newkirk
They weren't in passenger service, but the Corona Cars were spotted running lite on the 2/5 lines up to the 239th St Yard for some unknown reason. As of the time I wrote this message, no Corona Cars came south to head home. The previous 2 times, the Corona Sets would head home the night after they came up!!!
-Stef
Remember that the R-33 singles have trip levers on both sides, allowing them to journey over all divisions. Thus whenever a set of R-36s journeys from Corona to anywhere else on the IRT, an R33-WF must head the train on the IRT mainline.
Actually, it is while on the B Division (IND or BMT tracks) that the R-33 single has to be in front. Once back on the IRT, it could be disconnected, but since it was sent as part of the consist, I guess it makes more sense to leave it.
R-36 WF sets occasionally operate on the #6 line (mixed in with cars of "mainline Redbirds"), apart from their normal duties on the #7.
For those of you who were going to freeze your bottoms off, waiting thursday night for the R-142s to be delivered, I have great news. They ain't coming!!!!! My well placed source has informed me that the best Bombardier can do is now December 13th. This should give us an obvious nickname for the R-142s:
THE PHANTOMS
what about the Kawasaki R-142's, maybe they will come first? -Nick
You kinda get the feeling they'll get here just in time for the 180th St. yard to find out all that new electronic equipment has a Y2K bug.
If I don't get there before, I will be at E180th St. Shop on November 6th. Photos to follow.......
Does that mean our favorite DCE person will be going to East 180?
Nope!!! The Cleaner Roadeo will be held there on that date & hopefully, I'll have several employees competing.....
The Cleaner Roadeo? Is this new?
Not new, really. Probably been around for 6 years now. While the cleaners don't get to compete in the national APTA Roadeo, they do get to compete and win prizes. It's a fun Saturday for their families to.
I'm afraid to ask this, but here goes: what are the rules?
Why be afraid to ask? The cleaner roadeo consists of several events. There are written questions, practical skills tests and chemical and tool identification. Not quite the Car Repair Roadeo, the Train Operator Roadeo or the Bus Driver Roadeo but then again try making cleaning interesting. Prizes are real, though.
1st prize = 27" Sony
2nd Prize = Sony VCR
3rd Prize = 13" color TV
4th prize = 35 MM camera
These contests are very anti-union.
Thanks for the info!
Projected reliability theorem:
Probability of failure is directly porportional to the cost per car times the number of microprocessors.
Probably explains why many of the BMT Standards ran for 45+ years. Number of microprocessers: zero.
Plus they could come out of a crash with nothing more than a few scrapes and bruises.
Try explaining that to the computer types out there. They just don't get it. Technology for technology's sake is just wrong. Keep it simple, stupid, is the way to go.
OK, let's take the computers out of cars. Now we have vehicles with horrible emmisions, poor mileage, and no ABS. All of which have managed to greatly improve our quality of life.
I doubt that the problems with the 142s are the computers. I'm thinking it's most likely human errors, people who don't know that you tighten a screw clockwise.
-Hank
A computer is only as fast as the slowest person designing, ordering, programming, installing and tuning it. So if we can't get rid of thugs in New Car Engineering AND Joe Hoffman, Eric can refer to himself as Mr. R-46 again and another car builder will go out of business.
Nah, Bombardier still has their aircraft division. And those Ski Doos (Hey - everyone's doo'n it!!! *duck* :)
Though I thought it was funny (in a sad way) that they managed to derail not only the first R-142, but the first Acela too. What a concept for Amtrak - pre-derailed equipment!
In all fairness, the new Boston red line stuff they did is pretty nice, though it can't touch the blue line's Hawker-Siddely stuff in the all-important "tacky woodgrain vinyl wall covering" department. You thought the M-1s were bad - try the blue line someday - even the builder's plate is covered with it. (I wish I was kidding)
As far as computers go, I've heard E cams are nice, but that seems to be the exception. I don't understand why logic controllers are needed to work doors, when relays can do the job just fine. I *can* see the usefulness of optical / magnetic sensors, but neither require computers to work, though they may need an interface box. And, do you REALLY want to be on a subway running Windows 95?
As far as fuel injection on cars goes - I was under the impression that at least some of the older systems were really analog systems as opposed to digital ones. And last I heard, safety experts are now rethinking the need/usefulness of ABS, given that most people don't know how to use it (driver ed classes still teach "10 and 2" for steering, though with today's cars, it's not even needed, and in fact dangerous if you have airbags. It seems driver ed curriculums don't keep up with auto technology, or the times in general (my class saw a movie on how to save gas "because of the energy crissis, and gas is already $1.00 a gallon in some parts of the US".) But this is Subtalk, not CarTalk (great show, BTW).....
And, do you REALLY want to be on a subway running Windows 95?
The R-142s would be running Windows NT becausde it's "industrial strength" and since service pack 5 would be applied, NYC Transit would NEVER get the "blue screen of death" while the train is in operation, oh no ....
--Mark
Hmmm.... if subway cars were like operating systems.....
The Dosliner: This car is nothing more than a steel box on wheels. The roll signs are all black on white. The train leaves the terminal late because the T/O can't find where the reverse and brake handles go, and can't see them because there's no lights inside the train. Each car has one seat in it, unless it has Highpassenger installed, in which case it has 10, but most passengers can only sit in the stadard one seat.
The Windows Car: This subway car looks alot like an iSubwayCar, but breaks down 50 times as often, and is impossible to fix. When the MTA calls for tech support, the support person first tells them to open and close all the windows on it, and if that doesn't work, take the car entirely apart and put it back together again. Passengers love the Windows car, even though it's unreliable and uncomfortable. Crews hate it. The MTA doesn't like them either, but keeps buying them because the manufacturer keeps saying they can upgrade to a better one, even though every time they do, they have to replace all the tracks in the subway.
iSubwayCar: All of these look the same, but come in different color, red, green, blue, purple, instead of the tan every other subway car comes in, and each seat looks the same too. At every stop, the roll sign momentarily displays a smiling subway car on it, and beeps. To exit this car, you drag yourself to a trashcan in the front of the car, and it automatically spits you out the door. Passengers really like these cars, but they only run on 10% of the subway lines in the system. The manufacturer was on the verge of bankruptcy, but now can't even begin to fill the massive orders for iSubwayCar.
VAX/VMSubwaycar: An 'industrial strength' subway car, this one costs $10,000,000 per car, but is entirely graffitti proof. Even when loaded with 200 passengers per car, it still runs at the same speed as when empty, though they're not that fast. If they're equipped with Alpha motors, they are VERY fast, but nobody makes subway tracks they'll fit on. They almost never crash or break down, however, and when they do, the manufacturer comes and investigates it so it dosen't happen again. It's slightly differnt than UNIXliners, but many find it easier to operate after they get used to it, because the controller notches are labled in something more like english, such as "POWER/NOTCH=2/GO", or "POWER/BRAKE=MAX/STOP" Each time a passenger gets off, a slightly older clone of him stays on, until the conductor physically throws it off the train. If something goes wrong, the diagnostic codes are completely uninteligable.
UNIXliner: A very common car, but each ones looks and works different from the others. They run fine when empty, but gets very slow as they fill up. The controller on this has between 50 and 80 notches, most are labeled useful things like "rz", or "jfh", or "qw -nd | t". Some actually make the train move, others cause it to instantly burst into flames. This car is delivered as a big box of parts that has to be put together, but comes with no instructions as to HOW to do that. A free version, the LinuxLiner, exists, and is used by systems that can't afford a UNIXliner. It's design is the result of maintenance personal working on it with their free time, and as a result, it outperforms most other subway cars, and if it breaks, a fix is available for download in 5 hours.
The AmigaBird: There are only 10 T/Os that drive these, but they never shut up about how great they are and why ALL subway cars should be these things, even though the manufacturer went under years ago. Early ones were unreliable, but got a repuation for having features that other subway cars still don't have. Despite being so great, these cars are only able to roll around the yards.
BeCar: This subway car is still being developed. It was origionally supposed to be a better type of iSubwayCar, but the company designing it has decided to modify it to run on Windows Car tracks. It's major feature is it can have as many traction motors as you want on it, and can run all of them at full power. Despite the fact it rides better and goes faster, when it comes into the station, nobody gets onto it.
Anyone care add some of the more obscure ones? :)
How about the Commodore PET car? Looks like a wooden IRT el car, and when people get on it, they ask the conductor "Does this stop at Chatham Square"?
Funny Phil! I like the wittiness!
The reason for computerized doors and other systems that were relay dependent is multifold.
By using fiberoptic between controllers at each door it saves on extensive wiring. By having a central proccesing unit to oversee the individual operators it makes trouble shooting easier. And micro processer controls although expensive to purchase are cheaper and easier to maintain. Welcome to modern transportation. Transit has long lagged far behind other industries in new technology. Here's another one of those first tenative steps. I worked with this stuff on Comet IV coaches at NJT. It's not that bad at all.
The TandyCar-Really popular in the early days of operation, but had no doors, windows, seats, signs, or motors. The only way to move the car was to put a cassette tape in a work locomotive.
The Apple II car-Extremely popular, until the Windows car came along. Had several different models, such as the IIe, IIc, II+, IIc+, and IIgs, all of varying sizes, seat, motor, and window arrangements. Freindly people loved them, as they would sit together in groups and trade seats and destination signs. Lots of spare parts were available, and you could even make them private cars if you liked.
The CoCo car-Similar to the Tandy Car, but with doors, windows, and seats. Still needed the work locomotive.
The Hewlett-Packard car- Can go really fast, but can't stop worth a damn. Some of them can only stop, and never go. Other only go if you prod them.
-Hank
The COBOL car -- wicker seats, manual operating end doors and nobody under the age of 55 knows how to run one.
Why is it great that they aren't coming? The faster they come, the faster that the R-33 singles are thrown to the scrap heap.
The R33 singles aren't going anywhere unless all redbirds are removed from the Flushing line. They're needed for those 11 car trains
When the R-142s come along, the R-33s will be the first cars out, it doesn't matter whether it's R-62s or R-142s that will populate the 7.
But the R142's are scheduled to first replace the redbirds on the 2 and 5 lines. The R33's will be needed as long as R3336 WF cars remain on the Flushing line, which will be some time. Unless they move to 10 car trains on the 7 line ...
rumored to be going to the Flushing line to replace redbirds was R62a's from the 6 line, 2-5 car linked sets with single R62A to make an 11 car consist.
I knew those R33 single units would be around for some time to come.
Sometime in the future, I would like to see a B division Fantrip in either the fall or spring with an all single fan car consist. Yes, B division. Yes, they can run there.
How about the M line?
I second that notion, Bill!!! These are the only IRT cars that are truly capable of running on the B Division. Fans only? Perhaps this is a trip that needs to be run in the cooler of the months of the year:)
Anyway there was an R33 single fan trip way back in the 1970s, and it has been many years since then.
-Stef
Say, that wasn't the train featured in the 1993 calendar, was it?
No. The picture in the 1993 Calendar was from the Pelham Line at Middletown Rd (Bronx). Those were R36s.
-Stef
Thanks for the clarification. The caption says they looked out of place or lost.
If they can run on both divisions without any modifications, then I guess they will be kept for work or money trains ...
Or they'll just sit in the yard for the purpose of hauling the 7 cars elsewhere (impossible with R-142) unless a few R-62s get dual tripcocks.
THey can always use the 127s, or any other work motor. All work motors have dual trip-cocks.
-Hank
They don't have enough R-127/R-134s to cover all the electric work service requirments. The pickups at 239 Street run R-33 cars and the 207 Street pickup ran a couple of R-38s. The revenue collectors use the R-21/R-22 cars. Don't even ask about the crap on the signal dolly. What exactly is the problems with these R-127s? Do they have the same SCM controllers that other GE cars have or is it that they are miscellaneous cars with no budget?
You can discard the R-33s, bring R-62s to the 7, transfer the good Redbirds from the 7 to another line (like the 4 or 6) in exchange for the R-62s and add a few of the cars from the 2 and 5 that are displaced by the R-142.
Down here in SEPTA territory I'm looking forward to seeing those R-142 cars mayself. This sure does have the same ring to it as SEPTA had with there dealings with Ad-Tranz on the delivery of the M-4 cars. We all know how long overdo that order was. Hope you don't have to wait to long. Good luck guys.
That means there will be more work for the Bondo Squad on those never-say-die Redbirds. I have a feeling they will be needed for some time to come.
And I would be happy to have the contract which sells the red paint to the TA!
10/09/99
Maybe it's the same company that sold the TA all that dark green paint seen on the overhauled R-10's. Now the TA is using the same color to paint some stations and "EL" structures.
Bill Newkirk
I thought those few "redbirds" painted that greeen in the 80's looked better than the red currently used today.
I still want to know who sold the TA all that yellow/green and gray paint they used on the interiors of the R-7 through R-36 cars back in the 1970s? That color combination redefined the term "ugly."
I remember the doors on the R40/42 being bright orange. Blended nicely with the aquamarine seats ...
Orange and tan was the second color combo of the 70s. Supposedly, the paint was more graffiti-proof. At least it was better looking to the eye than the other was, though I always preferred the original light blue/dark blue interiors the Redbirds (and R-36 Bluebirds) had.
Chances are some distributor was looking to get rid of those colors and unloaded all that paint to the TA for peanuts.
Is there an IRC (Internet Relay Chat) dedicated to railfan issues, particularly urban rapid transit systems?
If not, I'd be more than happy to start such a channel on Dalnet. IRC allows people to chat in real-time and is very easy to use. I'm fairly active with an amputee-related channel on EFnet, and have developed a number of close friendships there. A lot of us even get together once or twice a year.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I was riding a northbound Q yesterday. At 7th Ave the doors opened before the train had completely stopped. We drifted slowly for a good three seconds, covering maybe 15 feet, before a brake application stopped us. Nobody was trying to enter or exit the last car, but I don't know how people reacted further up.
Funny, I didn't think it's possible to open the doors while the train is moving.
Bill
This happened as the train was comming in to the station?
As the train came to a stop the doors opened but it
haddn't completely stopped yet?
The doors can be opened at any time. Regardless of the
train's motion. Any time the key is inserted and the OPEN
button is pushed.
On the IRT especially, the conductors are always trying to
save time, and frequently, they have the key inserted and turned before the train stops. The timing of it has to be perfect so that just as the train stops the doors pop. Now this is a violation of the operating rules, but the TA looks the other way on it until something goes wrong.
Perhaps this is what you saw, and the conductor made an error it timing? Or perhaps the doors had an electrical problem. It happened to me on the Sea Beach line last year. I had a train of R-68's open on the off side as the train was exiting 8th Av. All by itself!
Maybe it's time for an exorcism...
Postwar cars have interlocks which prevent the train from being started up with the doors open, but I'm not sure if the same holds true if the train is already moving. The R-1/9s, for instance, could run with the doors open; I saw an OOS train do precisely that once at 59th St. Columbus Circle, and was able to work the doors on 1689 at Shore Line back in 1980 as it rolled along the main line. Now THAT was fun! While I was opening and closing the doors, someone else was playing with the buzzer. Eddie Sarkauskas was going nuts. He was in the cab, hollering at the guy at the buzzer to knock it off.
Well at least you know you can open the doors on 1689 while the car is in movement. But really Steve B, I don't think that was a wise thing to do. It's a safety issue I'm concerned about. As for the buzzer guy, well I'd get annoyed too. For that I would have just locked the cab door. It's ok to have fun, just don't over do it.
-Stef
I should have pointed out a few more things about that memorable day in August 1980.
That run on 1689 occurred after hours. There were maybe three or four of us on board. Eddie wasn't really pissed with the buzzer going off; he would just say "Hey!" now and then. When we got to the end of the line at Short Beach, one of us had to hold the rope attached to the trolley pole after Eddie swung it around, and I ended up doing the honors. The return ride was much quieter, IIRC, since Eddie was now at the same end of the car which had the active conductor's station.
One other humorous event occurred: I bought one of the IND sign boxes on sale at the sign shop they had back then, and drove around to Farm River Rd. then down to the shop. Eddie had walked over in the meantime and watched as I loaded the box into my car. When someone asked what was going on, Eddie replied, "He's building a subway car at home." I could only wish... He also noticed a bumper sticker I had at the time which proclaimed, "Lithuanians are coming!" and shook his head (he's a fellow Lithuanian, but he doesn't speak it and I do). It referred to a folk dance festival which had taken place in Chicago the previous month.
I learned an awful lot from Eddie about the subway, especially contract numbers, during the couple of times I saw him then. I haven't seen him since; I doubt if he remembers me.
Alright then, I understand. I don't know how often Eddie comes, these days. Branford does have someone to operate 1689, even if he's not around.
-Stef
I remember seeing a fellow there about 4-5 years later who looked a lot like Eddie. I was going to ask him if by chance he remembered me, but when he spoke, it didn't sound at all like Eddie.
I remember one other humorous incident with him. It happened right after I got done loading that IND sign box. I was about to say something to Eddie when he turned and said, "Ite missa est". Being a Catholic who still remembers the all-Latin Mass, I knew what it meant.
OK, for those of us whose Hebrew is better than our Latin, please translate!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, here goes. "Ite, missa est" means "Go, the Mass is ended". This was one of the first parts of the Catholic liturgy to be said in English (or vernacular, if you will) when the phaseout of Latin began in the mid-60s. Later on, it was changed to what the celebrant now says: "The Mass is ended. Go in peace." (The celebrant is whoever is celebrating Mass: priest, monsignor, bishop, cardinal, or pope.)
Just as our rabbi always ends the service with Shabbat shalom - literally, Sabbath peace, used as both a welcome and a farewell greeting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All by itself? Sounds like a maintenance problem. Steve, how about an expert opinion?
Not a maintenance problem from where I sit. There are interlocks to prevent the train from taking power with the doors open but not the reverse. I believe that at one time, the R-46 had a "zero-speed" relay which prevented such an occurrence but that was removed with the ATO. If the doors opened before the train came to a full stop, the only one to blame is the Conductor.
They have TSSs out there checking to see if the conductors have their key in the MDC panel before the train stops. There was one at Van Wyck Blvd last week.
The "new tech" trains have an interlock with the speed sensor to
prevent opening doors while the train is in motion. I wonder if
you can release the brakes without indication?--that's a separate
and common problem where the t/o releases to save time and rolls
with the doors still open.
So Eric had a D-O-E? I thought the Vapor mods were supposed to
fix all that? I never got the paperwork on those mods..were any
trainlines modified, or was it all in the MDC?
It wasn't mechanical. A vandal used a stolen MDC key from the last car of the consist. I identified him from mugshot books. Darius McCollum. This is the same weirdo who stole buses from the Jackie Gleason depot, and has been arrested for trying to sign on the payroll in a motorman's uniform.
When I got to the back of the train after the DOE, I saw him in a uniform, and remembered him from Stillwell. I had figured him for a lunch relief clerk. I had asked him to stay and help me discharge at the next stop. He actually helped me shepherd the few passengers we had at that hour into the front zone. Then he disappeared.
Wacko!
Haha! Now that's hysterical. You always manage to get involved
in the strangest of situations. Tell the guy to file for the t/o
exam!
And that is why you should not lean against doors, because they can open at any time. That couple making out on the F leaning into the doors would've found themsleves in a subway tunnel and the rats would be keeping them company if they "fell out" of the train.
People commonly lean against train doors, not aware that it is dangerous.
Alot of times on a grade if the brakes are not kept applied, the train will still roll, forwards or backwards, depending on the direction of the grade.
It seems like the LIRR electric trains rollback sometimes when at a stop.
why wouldn't be possible for the trains doors to be be open and the train still moving? The train may be moving however the interlocks have removed power from the traction motors also resulting in lose of t/o and c/r indication the AIR brakes are the ones stopping the train... sounds like the Coonductor on such train had their key in the MDC and popped the doors way too soon
Had the train operator stopped the train with the back portion of the train out of the station seeing the indication lost the posibility of a rider walking off the train on to the roadbed thinking the train was properly stopped....
10/07/99
Changing the locale of the subject from NYC to Philly,didin't those classic "Almond Joys" doors open before the train came to a dead stop?
Bill Newkirk
Hi there,
I am in the planing stages of attempting to build an HO scale model of the IRT #1’s 242nd St. terminal. Ok, now that you’ve stopped laughing…..I only make it back to NY 3, maybe 4 times a year….let a lone having any free time to spend countless hours there with a camera and tape measure (which I’ll probably have to do anyway). Does anyone know if there exists any plans, blueprints, or any other type of documentation that will help me with the measurements? Any information would be greatly appreciated!
I currently do have 3 HO scale R21 cars from Image Replicas, which are quite nice. Now I want the tracks and station to go with it!
Ted, why don't you pose your question on New York subway modeling on Model Sub Talk at www.monmouth.com/. Go back to the home page, and go to Transfer Station and proceed from there.
I probably will do that...but I usually reserve my "modeling" questions for them, and actual NYC subway stuff for this board. The guys on Model SubTalk are great, but don't put a lot of stress on "actual" stations...they just represent a NYC style elevated station. I guess I'm the crazy one by trying to make my 242nd street station look as close as I can to the real thing.
One thing you should be aware of is that the two side platforms are shorter by about two car lengths than the center platform which can hold a ten car train.
Larry,RedbirdR33
An article in today's issue of Salon (www.salon.com) had a nasty remark about the Transit Authority and its workers. The author, a college professor in Iowa, wrote the following in describing his frustration in trying to get an appointment at a hospital orthpedic clinic for back pain:
"Where does the hospital get these people? The reject pile of token-takers at the New York City Transit Authority? The motto seems to be, "How can't we help you?""
How about a boycott of SALON Magazine? Just a thought.
(Boycot Salon magazine).
Somehow I don't think a 100 percent boycot by transit workers and readers would cost Salon magazine too much business.
Or at least the answers I was looking for :)
Flatbottoms - The older New Haven EP-3s, Though Harry says garbage trains are called this too.
Rat's - the PRR B-1, B-2, and BB-3 switchers
BiPolars - Milwaukee's gearless passenger motors (Not sure what series)
Virginians - The E33 - the New haven gave them this name I think.
Big Blows - The Union Pacific turbine units.
Sweedish Meatballs - The AEM-7, I think Metro-North claims reasponsibility for this in a pamphlet somewhere.
Electroliners - The Chicago North Shore equipment. Way cool
Arrows - NJT's MUs Way fast, and features the coolest looking pantographs in the northeast.
Blueliners - Ex Reading MUs
U-boats - Any of the GE U series locomotives.
10/07/99
Was any EMD nicknames mentioned?
GP-38,40's etc. - "GEEPS"
F-7,9's etc. - "Covered wagons" - "Cab units"
BACK TO THE SUBWAY !
BMT 67' footers - "AB's" "Standards" "BMT Steels"
BRT EL cars - "gate cars" - "BU's" (for Brooklyn Union elevated)
IRT EL steam loco's - "Forneys" or was that the manufacturers name ?
>Was any EMD nicknames mentioned?
Given my non-love for EMD, the only one I mentioned were the two not so kind ones for the FL-9!
I don't hate EMD cause they're GM (well, actually...), but mostly cause they're dull I always liked the more obscure / rare things in life (and the classics, hence the GG-1). Everyone likes EMD. But if everyone likes EMD, who's going to be around to like Baldwins and Fairbanks-Morse diesels? :) (ahhhhhh the evil emoticon!!!)
Hey - it just dawned on me - everyone says they're gonna be there - but Branford's a big place - have we agreed on a common meeting mpoint, or are we working on the bump into each other method? I'm assuming there's gonna be a lot of non subtalkers there too :)
Any sugestions?
I am sure I'll bump into Subfans any time the R17 is running. I'm sure Jeff H will be on the LoV too >G<....
Heck when they run the PCC I don't think there will be room for anyone but SubTalkers!1
I know Branford is a lot closer to NYC, which is where most SubTalkers will go. And as a member there, I hope you WILL go and support the Museum! But I'll be at Seashore in Kennebunkport tomorrow serving as an Instructor and pilot for any members or visitors who wish to run a trolley. So if any of you find your way to Maine, come over and say hello.
Todd & friends also have some unique NYC equip. up their, e.g. UMTA "SOAC" demo R-44 (see June Subway calendar). It is definitely on my short list of places to visit, but not this weekend.
Mr t__:^)
Not to mention #4137. Unfortunetly, I simply have no means of getting up there this weekend (Harley's at home - I'm not crazy enough to leave that thing on this campus unattended!). I'm still trying to figure out how I can get down to New Haven. Not to mention a nice 5 page paper due monday, and plenty of labs (gear design, shaft design...) I might be able to make it down though, I'm not sure.
Take the train down. Maybe Thurston will pick you up from
the station in New Haven?
I look forward to seeing everyone up at the Museum that rules the world!!! As I said previously, I'll be there tomorrow, and possibly Sunday. You'll know who I am as I'll be hanging out of the R17 and will be wearing a black hat with the name "Kangol" on it.
Cheers For a Great Weekend,
Stef
-Stef
You must beat the current validated record and not set a new which is of higher time. That's the rules.
I really enjoyed the one-hour film about the NYC Subways that was shown the other day. I really get an appreciation for the job thats done by the operators, conductors, etc. The one scene showed an already "packed like sardines" train trying to squeeze a few more from a platform that was overcrowded . What a sight! No wonder people get mad at the system. There isn't much more you can do because the headways are very close at rush hour anyway. We'd have trains overunning each other, although I know signaling makes this impossible. The history was interesting also, and they always bring up the "Malbone St. Crash".
Chuck Greene
According to the MTA's Web Page service notices, there are no transfers from the 2/3 to the A/C at Fulton St until March 2000; it suggests transfers at the now-reopened Park Place/Chambers St station. This info is on the Service Notices for both the A/C and the 2/3.
It also indicates that there are no transfers between the 2/3 and the 4/5 until March 2000; it suggests transfers at Boro Hall. This info is on the 4/5 page, but not the 2/3 page.
It says nothing about transfers from the 2/3 to the J/M/Z, or from the J/M/Z to any other lines. So, could you transfer 'the long way'? Not remember ing what the layout of the station is, are there separate passageways to the 2/3 at Fulton? Do you need to use a platform to make a transfer between any of these lines?
-Hank
There is only one connection between the 2/3 platform and the rest of the Fulton St./B'way-Nassau complex. If that passageway is closed, then the 2/3 is isolated from the rest of the complex, including the J/M/Z.
The Fulton St. station is actually split into two halves. The western half contains the 4/5 platforms and the northbound J/M/Z. The eastern half contains the 2/3 platform and the southbound J/M/Z. The only connection between the two halves is the A/C Broadway-Nassau St. station platform, which lies at the lowest level. I nominated this station for the "most confusing" when we had that thread not long ago.
Are there seperate passages from the 2/3 to the north and south J/M/Z? If so, is there another passage from the J/M/Z to the other affected lines?
-Hank
From the 2/3 mezzanine you go down to the A/C Platform and then back up for the J/M/Z- One stairway for Broad Street and Bay Parkway and another stairway for Metropolitan, Jamaica Center and the Lexington.
From the 2/3 Mezz there are exits to the street. Likewise from the 4/5 mezz there are exits to the street. The J/M/Z Platform closest to the street level also has an exit to the street.
I did check the G.O. List and there was no item about no transfer from the A/C to or from the 2/3
I have always thought that the purpose of the Fulton St. mega transfer was to provide the following:
4/5 and A/C, J/M/Z/ and A/C, J/M/Z and 2/3, 2/3 and 4/5 (only for people going from Chelsea/Far West Village to Stuyvesant Town or thereabouts).
For 4/5 and J/M/Z, people normally use Bklyn Br.
For 2/3 and A/C, people normally use Park Place/Chambers.
For 2/3 and 4/5, most people would use Nevins St. in Brooklyn or would take the 42 St. shuttle or some other way to get across town.
In other words, half the possible connections are there but not convenient anyway, but to get the half that are useful you need a mega-connection.
Okay, I'm too lazy to pull out my CFR tonight but here's a question that occurred to me this afternoon at Penn. Station. Every AMTRAK train passing through Penn Station has its bell ringing while in motion. Same for NJ transit whether a loco or MU is at the head end. LIRR trains with Locos do it too but not the M-1s or the M-3s. Is it required or is the LIRR somehow exempt?
I'm guessing the LIRR is exempt. That and their MUs don't have bells. Never did, nor did the MP-54s. Can't ring a nonexistant bell. Supposedly they could wig wag their headlights and flash them too, but that's another ledgendary feature that was disconnected early on. I'm under the impression there's LOTS of things they had that was disabled on them. LIRR trains with locos in Penn? AFIK, there's only one - has this (finally) changed? :)
BTW - I thought Arrows had bells, but I never recall hearing them recently (but as a kid, yes)
All NJT equipment have bells and ditch lights....including Arrows MUs and Comet cab cars. They use them at every station stop. BTW does anyone know if MNCRR MUs have bells or not...i don't recall them have any.
LIRR MU's don't have bells but have ditch lights, they were modified to have ditch lights as per FRA mandate. The modification was to add two lights over the storm door and let the normal orginal lights be the "ditch lights".
Amtrak always rang their bells thourgh the station through tunnels as well. I have tapes of cab rides on AEM7, FL9 and Turbo cars all rang their bells through tunnels and stations.
Arrow III MU cars do NOT have bells. MU equipment is exempt from that. I do not know why. I can try and find out in my CFR.
10/08/99
How about when the LIRR dual mode (DM-30) engines enter service in the future. Will the bells be ringing?
Bill Newkirk
Yes, but this doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon. I still remember reading about "direct service from Glen Cove in 1998". Anyway, the LIRR seems to be quiet on the issue - I know they've been testing, testing, testing, testing. Are these thing white elephants, or are they actually going to go into service? For that matter - what's so hard about dual modes anyway?
10/09/99
Phil,
Maybe they're too high tech and sophisticated for themselves !
Bill Newkirk
According to "The Chief," the civil service newspaper, the City gave in and agreed to allow DC37 members to buy their own Metrocards, but on a pre-tax basis. The union didn't agree to drug testing, but the city will do it anyway. The TransitChek should be available some time next year, they say. (Workers at NYC--EDC, who do not have the benefit of a union and therefore do not have to negotiate, have had TransitChek for some time).
The city did not agree to subsidize the Metrocard, but that issue could be revisited during the "pay" negotiations for the next contract. I'll settle for the city picking up 1/3 of the cost of a monthly Metrocard -- and charging those with on-street parking passes two-thirds the cost of a monthly Metrocard.
TransitChek version of the MetroCard is very popular on our routes. We also get folks who mail us the paper TransitChek to buy our $30 value or $120 Unlim Express MCs.
Mr t__:^)
I'm posting this to let all my SubTalk friends know that tomorrow I am leaving for my annual trip to Virginia to visit the folks. I should be back late on the afternoon of Sunday, October 17th. This Monday and Tuesday I will complete my photo shoot of the DC Metro (which I began on August 27-28, 1998 and never finished). I am going to try and see where the new construction in Southeast is as well, particularly the Naylor Road and Southern Avenue stations. Perhaps I'll get lucky and get a sneak peek.
Anyway, I may pop into the Handley Library in Winchester sometime during the week to say "hi". I'm probably going to get in two or three rounds of golf at Carper's Valley GC (Par 70, 6,165 yards from the white tees).
Expect to see the Metro photos sometime around the 20th to the 25th of this month, depending on how many and how fast I can get them scanned.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
Welcome to the DC area again. I drove past those Green Line stations today and they are moving right along. The Branch Ave station looks nearly complete including the Bus stop/layover and Kiss N Ride. I was just thinking that I need a trip to NYC to see my folks and to get another dose of the NYCT system. Hope you enjoy your trip and railfanning on WMATA Metrorail.
Wayne
Bon voyage! When you get back, let me know (privately, if you wish) where we'll be meeting on the 27th and at what time. FYI, I will be staying in Manhattan near the Village. Looking forward to meeting you!
You are never on vacation from Subtalk. Use the computer at library or use internet time on a friends computer.
Right you are, Mr. TC! I visited SubTalk while on vacation in Thailand earlier this year. I was able to connect to the 'net with my laptop; no power or phone line converters needed!
By the way, Bangkok will have a brand-new, two-line, elevated rapid transit system opening in early December. I have some photos that have been recently sent by a friend, and I'll scan them for inclusion on the site.
Now available at select supermarkets are TransitChex, featuring a different subway car in every bite! Lo-Vs, Hi-Vs, BMT A-B units, and R-9s are made of 100% oat and wheat bran. It's all part of a nutrious breakfast for the railfan on the go from the folks who brought you Wheat Chex and Rice Chex.
And a free MTA patch in every box! (while supplies last).
(Another demented post -- as you can see it's getting late...)
Doug aka BMTman
Hey - might be just the ticket to get my younger son to appreciate subway cars (he eats enough Corn Chex to keep Nebraska solvent)!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Today i have a hard time putting my subway pictures into my page. Any way i added more subway pictures today & go check my Meaney Subway page & also i add new pictures in my mainpage. More Subway Pictures will add during this week.
Peace Out
Meaney
I must say 6452 looks pretty sharp in that photo.
I hate to nitpick, but 1575 at the museum remains an R-7A from a mechanical and electrical standpoint. It only looks like an R-10. That's where the similarity ends.
What could Elvis Presley possibly have to do with the LIRR? Find out at Forgotten NY at...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Elvis/elvis.html
He might still be riding the LIRR!
He might be CREWING the LIRR!
He played the Brooklyn Paramount, I think in '62 (?)(now the site of Long Island University) across from the immortal Juniors!
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks--I'll fix that entry.
Since five R62s are likely to be going to the scrap heap unless something drastic happens...
If it does not involve too much fiddling, perhaps we can cannibalize the usable parts from the six R62/R62As currently OOS (1909, 1435, 1436, 1437, 1439 and 1440) and resurrect 1909 using the least damaged of the R62 cars (perhaps #1436?) and cannibalize the usable parts from 1909, 1435, 1437, 1439 and 1440 and rebuild it into R62A specifications are renumber this car into #1909.
This will extend the life on an R62 servicing as an R62A rather than seeing it go to waste....
P.S. Is #1438 an "A" car or a "B" car???? (remember that the R62 has one mismatched consist of 1431-1432-1433-1434-1438). If #1431 is one of the two A cars, and if #1438 is not the 2nd A car, then what number is that 2nd A car?
Nick
R62 #1438 is considered to be an "A" car. It is the leading motor on one half that consist, with 1431 on the other end.
-Stef
Why don't they renumber from #1438 to #1435???
Peace Out
Meaney
Good question! They probably should do that and scrap 1435 under the number 1438. It keeps the numbers consistent. However, for the record books, 1435 was wrecked and has gone beyond the point of return.
-Stef
R110B 3007, -8, -9...If these cars don't get the parts that they were cannibalized for...This would be a total waste.
R29 8706...Any recent sightings of this car? Wrecked cars list claim that this car was damaged in a derailment in 1996.
R46 5486,-7,-8,-9 Cannibalized for parts....any recent sightings of this set?
R68 2576,-7 and -8....Anyone want to bet that they might run on the Franklin Shuttle until their sister (you what # it is) is repaired?
R44 5284 and 5285...What are they paired with now, since the loss of their siblings (5282 and 5283)????
Nick
R44 5284 and 5285. since the loss of their siblings have been spotted on track 58 of CI yard. They have regular daily appointments with a grief counseller, who feels their pain.
R29 8706 is on the road. According to an Electric Railroaders Association Bulletin, 8706 was the 8th car in a 20 car yard move that derailed over the switch at 239th St Yard. It was a minor mishap, otherwise he wouldn't be on the road. There was no noticeable damage whatsoever, and it didn't even make the news.
-Stef
The Manhattan Bridge's south side tracks are currently closed for
reconstruction until 2003, suspending Broadway Express service until
further notice. Is it possible that they can run the N express on
Broadway Weekdays 6am-9pm like in Brooklyn? They can run it express
from 57th Street-7th Avenue to Canal Street, then continue it via
the Montague Street Tunnel. Because when the Manhattan Bridge was
completely closed to all subway traffic, the Q was rerouted through
the Montague Street Tunnel via the N and R lines to 57th Street-7th
Avenue. There, it resumed it's normal route through the 63rd Street
Tunnel to 21st Street-Queensbridge, and it ran express from Canal
Street to 57th Street-7th Avenue. So why not making the N express
on Broadway weekdays, when it's express in Brooklyn?
James Li
I assume the reason they don't run the N express in Manhattan is to provide adequate (ha!) service to the local stations. Because the N would still have to squeeze back into the Montague tunnel with the R to get to Brooklyn, they can't run any more Rs than they already do; so taking the N off the local track would mean trains arriving half as often as they do now at Prince, 8th, et. al., which isn't very often in the first place.
2003? I heard the H tracks would reopen in 2001, with the A/B tracks then closed until 2003. The H tracks are in -- we're just waiting for that side of the bridge to be painted (admitedly a big job with lead et. all).
I can't wait!
When the tracks do open, what is the service plan? Run N and Q express trains over the bridge and then up Broadway, as before? Do you then run two D and B trains, one in Manhattan/Bronx, one in Brooklyn?
Really? The shifting of service to the other side of the bridge is being held up for painting?
Maybe if they hired some of the guys directly and promised 'em an extra six-pack for every good day's work, we could get it done by the end of this year.
When is the last time that an N train operated over the Manhattan Bridge "H" tracks? Does anyone have the date? Probably Redbird does.
I think it was September 30, 1990. It ran for one day then stopped. I rode it that day. I was on a R-68. Yes, I could still remember the battery on the train going nuts.
Thanks for the date. What do you mean about "the battery going nuts"?
Sort of like going wheeeeeeeeeeeee in a slow up and down pitch for a looooooooong time.
Apart from that one-day failed experiment, I think the N has been operating via the Montague St. tunnel since sometime in 1988. If they are on schedule and reopen the closed bridge tracks in 2001, it will have been 13 years that there was no regular N service over the bridge. That is equal to the length of time (1954 to 1967) that the D train, rather than the F, provided service through the Rutgers St. tunnel. Only no one called that a "temporary" service pattern.
Actually, only 11 years, since there was regular N express service over the Manhattan Bridge for 4 months in late '90. Still way too long ...
(13 years with no N service).
Maybe if the traffic and transit reports said "Again today riders on the southern rim of Brooklyn face to 5 to 10 minute delays due to the Manhattan Bridge problem," instead of "all trains and buses running normally," people would think differently. While they're add it, they should say "there are again severe crowding and delays on the Lexington Avenue line due to the lack of a 2nd Avenue Subway."
Shades of Car 54 Where Are You.
It ran from September 30th to Dec 28th, 1990. On that date it was announced that the N would temporarily have to return to the tunnel tracks while an emergency repair to fix some faulty stringers was done. 9 years later, we're still waiting ...
I hated the way it was set up. With only R service for local stations the people along Broadway lost nearly 1/2 of their service. Then they had the B, N AND M run express from Pacific to 36th, which really cramped up the express tracks.
I agree. I don't know why they made the M express on 4th Avenue. I
would make it local in Brooklyn, and the N local whenever the M was
not running in Brooklyn.
That's how it works now.
This is Douglaston Parkway
The next and last stop on this 7 train will be Little Neck Parkway.
Well,
One idea would be to keep the N and R as is, and instead run the yellow Q as the Broadway express from 57th Street or even 21st Street.
For Sixth Avenue, that Q would be replaced with the V.
LEAVE EVERYTHING AS IS and then add another line to Broadway! It'll be too confusing for the Brighton Express riders. Base another line from 4th Avenue or from West End and run it on the bridge.
3 trains through the MB north side or the Montague Tunnels is too much.
"3 trains through the MB north side or the Montague Tunnels is too much."
Not really. The M line is schedule to come 8 minutes because of very little ridership. The same with the the R line schedule for 6.5 minutes. The real problems lies with the N line schedule. It should be schedule to run every at least 3/4 minutes. Not is current time schedule of 6.5 minutes. That's ridiculous!
The R and N line have small schedules because of their congestion in the tunnel. If they didn't have share with the M, then they would have more service.
And as long as the N doesn't run over the bridge, it has to alternate with the R to keep the service balanced.
"For Sixth Avenue, that Q would be replaced with the V."
No subway steve that too confusing. Replace it with the H.
A C E or B D F and H being 8 letter of the alphabet.
H to 21st Street Queens Bridge and Rockaway Park.
I sometimes question the wisdom of the
Q as it is now.
Far be it from me to question authority, but why have it
on 6th at all(unless it's really needed, which I'm sure it
is-otherwise it wouldn't be running).
You have 3 northern terminals for any train coming off of
6th. You have three essential services(B,D,F) on 6th, why
the third express(I just say this because I'd like the Q
back on Broadway, but that's my opinion).
I don't disagree with the Q on broadway, but the use of V on the 6th Avenue Line. H just sounds better.
And, the overwhelming amount of lines going to coney island in oppose to the rockaway area.
The TA will never give up OPTO on the Rockaway Park line.
What's OPTO?
OPTO is One Person Train Operation. The Motorman operates the train and open closes the doors.
The H is BLUE!!!!!!
Couldn't it be made orange? Or, make all lines running on fulton blue?
Couldn't it be made orange? Or, make all lines running on fulton blue?
That should solve the problem.
That means the fleet of trains involved would need a whole new set of roll signs.
They are blue. Blue is the color of the 8th Ave. trunk line, and both the A and C lines are 8th Ave. lines. The H technically isn't an 8th Ave. route per se, since it never enters Manhattan, but it also became blue for the sake of uniformity.
I think the plan is to run the Brighton and West End lines over the Bridge, and turn them around at 57th St. The B and D would terminate at 34th St. A shuttle would run from W. 4th St to Grand Street. Perhaps they could outfit surplus R30s with cots for shuttle service, for the use of future residents.
This has been discussed before. It doesn't make sense to have the N run express in Manhattan the way things are now because it would have to switch tracks twice, which would increase the potential for delays and make any time savings moot. In order for Broadway express service to be useful, it should either terminate at 57th St. or continue on to 21st-Queensbridge. Once the bridge tracks reopen, the problem will take care of itself.
As I've said once before, the schedule as written should provide evenly spaced service throughout the route. If you seperate the N & R from each other for that relatively short run from Canal to 57, they initially would be evenly spaced, but when they come back together after the express run, they will no longer be evenly spaced apart. Remember, it's a paper railroad!
Does anyone know whether any part of the public transit infrastructure of San Francisco (MUNI or BART), aside from overhead electrical wiring, suffered major damage during the 1989 earthquake?
Specifically, were any of the MUNI or BART tunnels adversely affected?
I was in San Francisco at the time (on the 28th floor of an office building on Van Ness Avenue). Rail service was not interrupted on any very long-term basis. Problems resulted primarily from the loss of electric power (for both traction and station facilities), not from damage to BART or MUNI structures and rolling stock. Partial Muni Metro service was restored by the 18th, and full service by the morning of the October 19th. I haven't been able to recall or locate specific information for BART, but I believe the entire system was back in operation within a day or two as well.
For MUNI's operations in the aftermath of the quake, see:
http://www.sfmuseum.org/quake/muni.html
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Did we ever set a date for the trip down to the remains of the 9th Ave. El?
Okay, so this isn't a 100% serious posting, but could we please stop saying "retire" and "retirement" in the context of old subway cars being withdrawn from service? "Withdrawn" would in fact be a better choice.
As far as I'm concerned, "retire" and its derivatives have been completely tainted by their use in two separate contexts. One of these involves those ghastly Beanie Babies. Their maker cynically tries to squeeze money out of children (and, let's face it, more than a few adults) by grandly proclaiming the "retirement" of various types, thereby making it seem like they'll become valuable collectors' items. Talk about playing off greed ...
"Retire" also has been tainted in its human context. It used to be that people retired at age 65, settling down to well-deserved leisure after decades of hard work. But today it seems like more and more lazy people throw away promising careers at age 50, so they can take "early retirement" and play golf. What a waste of brainpower.
So let's not talk about "retirement" of subway cars, okay?
Hey! My little goils like Beanie Babies®.
You gotta problem wid dat, fellah?
We could use "scrap", but that is probably politically incorrect on a site where so many posters pine for pre-air conditioning cars.
If you're going for straight out accuracy, I suppose "withdrawn" is the most accurate, since withdrawn equipment is not always scrapped. Some number go into work service or are kept for spares. Some pieces are sold to museums. Though it's no longer common, resales to other properties or other countries for further use also occurs.
I'll agree that "retire" is kind of an odd word, if you think about it. I'm trying to envision R-27s moving placidly around a big field munching grass. Or perhaps old buses playing the slots at Atlantic City.
But the term is so common it acquires its own meaning.
[If you're going for straight out accuracy, I suppose "withdrawn" is the most accurate, since withdrawn equipment is not always scrapped. Some number go into work service or are kept for spares. Some pieces are sold to museums. Though it's no longer common, resales to other
properties or other countries for further use also occurs.]
I've got one - placed on emeritus status!
10/09/99
My take on this issue is the word "retire" is given the human touch to describe "withdrawn from service". The cars are seen as workers providing a service for X amount of years. Just like we do working for X amount of years. When it comes time to be "withdrawn","retire" seemed more honorably. Just like other posters said,not all cars meet the scrappers torch,when we "retire" they don't march us out in the courtyard and face the firing squad! We go on in other capacities such as finding a part time job to keep busy and enjoy a salary and pension check together. Then most of us don't work at all and play golf,plant tomatoes etc.,enjoying what free time we have now that we never had when we punched the time clock.The subway cars that were retired and not scrapped either go on to museums or recycled into work equipment as other posters stated earlier."Retire" seems more human,"withdrawn" sounds cold and final!
Bill Newkirk
How about "decommissioned" like naval vessels? Just like ship names, car numbers are reused, but only if the vessel/car is no longer in service. So a car would be "commissioned" when it's assigned a number and placed into service and it would be "decommissioned" when it's permanently taken out of service and its number returned to the pool of available car numbers. A decommissioned ship may be scrapped, or it may end up on display as a floating museum, just as a "decommissioned" subway car could end up as scrap or as a museum piece.
[re use of "decommissioned"]
Hey, I like it. Unless, of course, the term proves so popular that Ty, Inc. announces the decommissioning of Beanie Babies, and people throw away promising careers at age 50 so they can decommission and play golf :-)
I can very easily picture R-68s stuffing themselves at a smorgasbord once their service days are over. Of course, they've probably been doing that even now.
The R-10s, on the other hand, would be at a race track running drag races, or at some other contest competing for the title of Highest Decibel Output.
The people here in Maint. & at DOT use "retire" in relation to buses we take out of service. So I think it's an industry term that may have other meanings, but can't be wished away, sorry about that.
Mr t__:^)
Just because we use the word retirement doesn't mean we aren't useful in life anymore. The Bernie Geotz R-22 was retired but is in the consist of the CWR train. 1435, 1437 and 1439 all took early retirements. There is a beginning to life and an end to it. If I leave out the word retirement in my life, I will be pushing daisies before I reach 62 so I definately look forward to the first set of golf clubs I'll lay my hands on.
In the case of the Triplexes, they weren't retired. Not when they were still running as good as ever. They were sent to slaughter just because they were perceived as being "nonstandard".
Why were the BMT Standards slaughtered? I know that there's NO WAY they could of not been Standard, I mean they were CALLED Standard.
In addition to the "non-standard" issue, both Standards and Triplexes were withdrawn before the end of their economic lives because new equipment was purchased by the City while maintenance funds came from the TA budget.
It was a ploy to keep the 15 cent fare going a little while longer.
I was referring to the Triplexes. The reason I use the term "slaughter" was because the Triplexes were still in tip-top shape and rolling along as good as ever when they were withdrawn. The standards were phased out during that entire decade. The oldest ones which were not rebuilt were taken out of service when the R-27s and R-30s arrived. Those which were rebuilt in 1959-60 remained on the Eastern Division into the late 60s. It has been said that these cars were in better shape than the R-1/9s; in fact, several standards which were sitting on the scrap line were given an eleventh-hour stay of execution and returned to revenue service after having the "S" for scrap painted over when the IND was brought to its knees in 1966 due to an alarming increase in car breakdowns. Jamaica Yard resembled a triage outfit.
The second of 3 in the new batch reads:
Want to see the World ? Window seat available.
The 1st was: Clean planes, comfortable seats, on-time arrivals ...
This makes nine since April '98, i.e. #43
Mr t__:^)
Any GO's that might effect my journey home from Shea tonight? Specifically the 7 and E lines.
Will the TA run extra service on the 7 for the game?
There will most likely be extra service home, as there has been for most games this summer.
BTW, do you have an extra ticket?
-Hank
Sorry dude, could only get 4 and when i said i did I found out I had friends that I never knew existed...lol
I caught the end of a story on ABC a couple of days ago about the MTA having some sort of test (TO, conductor, not sure) which had a filing deadline at the end of this month for a January test. Anyone have more information on this?
If you've ever tried to grap the schedule for a train on the MTA website before they redirect you to the "we are adding new schedules" crap, well, I've succeeded in doing that with Lynx. I intend to add the schedules, in text format, to my website.
Just got my eagerly anticipated copy of "The Malbone Street Wreck" by Cudahy in the mail, locked myself in the bedroom and told my wife not to disturb me till I had finished the book. When I got to page 7, however, had to go on-line and comment on an often repeated error. In mentioning the incorporation date of the Brooklyn, Flatbush and Coney Island Railway Company, Cudahy states it as being "June 25, 1869." The Brighton line was, however, actually incorporated in 1877, one year before its opening. This mistake is one that has been repeated in numerous sources. The earliest appearance of the error that I've found so far is in Armbruster's "Coney Island" of 1924. The reason for this oft repeated mistake is that there was another company of the same name that was incorporated in 1869 (Actually this was the B,F&CI Rail ROAD Company, the Brighton line was the B,F&CI Rail WAY Company). The 1869 company had laid 6 miles of track by 1870 and was reorganized in 1878 as The Brooklyn, Coney Island & Rockaway Railroad Company.
To possibly confuse matters even more, there was a third company with the same name that was incorporated in 1866. This road however never saw any construction.
All company documents and all government agency documents cite the correct 1877 date. All books whose primary topic is Brooklyn railroad history also cite the correct 1877 date. It is only books that deal only peripherally with transit history that the incorrect date appears. This is why it is so surprising that Cudahy repeats the mistake. To his credit, however, he does present the correct date in a footnote which mentions another source that posits the 1877 date. The same footnote also correctly notes that the B,F,&CI "may have" been formed by a consolidation of The Flatbush & Coney Island Park and Concourse Railroad (1876), and The Coney Island and East River Railroad (1876).
I've had this discussion before with others and one of my favorite points was to mention how only non railroad oriented books contained this error. Unfortunately this recent book will add still more confusion to the topic.
This error from Cudahy surprises me as he has always written such well researched works on transit history. On the other hand I don't think that one small mistake of this sort detracts from the great overall work that he does. I merely wanted to bring it up to clear up any confusion that might result from the repeating of this too common error.
I just got off the phone with a NYCT Schedule Rep. He told me with good confidence that the line will start service on Wednesday, October 13 at 12:01 am.
I will keep my eyes sharply focused on the construction barricades over by Franklin Ave. on the C as I commute home on Tues. 12th just as added insurance. If the barrier is down, I'll make plans to be on the Shuttle Wed. afternoon.
Doug aka BMTman
10/08/99
HERE WE GO AGAIN !!
Bill Newkirk
Well, I can't get there that first week.
I'm being held back because the folks are scared I'll bring encephalitis.
Is it that serious? I heard 5 or so people died from it out of a city with 12 million or so in the area.
Yeah, if you asked me the city is over-reacting with this Malathion spraying which has some long term effects that can be as dangerous as the disease itself.
Anyhow, when the FS is up and running let us know when you plan to "test drive" the line. Maybe we can get a small group together for a special SubTalk trip.
Doug aka BMTman
Sounds good to me.
The CTA just opened today a gift express store on it's web site. Some of the stuff they are selling is pretty cool.
Go to Yourcta.com and click on CTA Store and Gift Express.
Also check out the link to Chicagostore.com
They have some pretty cool stuff from t-shirts to a sign from the Fullerton L station at Chicagostore.com
You can't officially but things yet over the internet from the CTA Gift Express, but you can browse the catalog. You have to order by calling the CTA hotline at 1-888-yourcta. The ability to order off the web site is suppost to be available in a few months.
You can however order transit cards and passes directly from the site.
Check it out, it's pretty cool.
BJ
Dave,
I got some scanned pictures of a few subway cars, including a GOH'ed R44 (may be the first for this site)...Can you please contact me by e-mail when you read this?
TIA!
Nick
Hello Dave Pirmann, Couple day ago i added more subway pictures into my page. I have R16 #6452 at PS 248, RD328, 334, & 346, Also IR & OR722, and Loc59, 67, 69, 886, 889 & #61 with #896 together at 36st Yard. So you can addd thoses pictures into your nycsubway page. Thank You
Peace Out
Meaney
PS I still hunting more workcars this months.
dear light rail SUBWAY and other rail and transit fans
QUESTION ???? !!!!!!
DONT YOU JUST HATE SUBWAY AND RAIL CARS THAT DONT HAVE
RAIL FAN WINDOWS ?????
LIKE ATLANTA SAN FRANCISCO LOS ANGELES ETC ???
THIS IS NOT TRUE IN CHICAGO !!!!!!!!
AND ON MOST NEW YORK SUBWAY CARS LIKE THE REDBIRDS ETC.
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO AGREES WITH ME ???
thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com ........
I disagree Salami man. I like all systems but what are your talking about.
Are are photographs on the internet.
excuse me sir my name is SALAAM i am not your
S A L I M I !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Salaam is the Islamic word for peace. Please respect other cultures Mr Train Control. As for me, SHALOM,SALAAM, we are all railfans.
Peace,
John J. Blair
I didn't mean to imply that I didn't respect the guy, only a little playful humor. People change my name to humor themselves and that's OK.
Sorry, just a little playful humor. I respect your threads.
QUESTION ???? !!!!!!
DONT YOU JUST HATE SUBWAY AND RAIL CARS THAT DONT HAVE
RAIL FAN WINDOWS ?????
LIKE ATLANTA SAN FRANCISCO LOS ANGELES ETC ???
THIS IS NOT TRUE IN CHICAGO !!!!!!!!
AND ON MOST NEW YORK SUBWAY CARS LIKE THE REDBIRDS ETC.
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO AGREES WITH ME ???
thank you salaamallah@yahoo.com ........
Don't get too attached to the railfan windows in Chicago... They're rapidly disappearing as the cars are being fitted with full-width cabs for OPTO.
Life sucks, huh?
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
At least you can still see through the front of the 3200-series cars.
Get used to it. That is the current wave of the future. The cars need a full width cab for several reasons including: placing the computer equipment in a "secure" but accessible area, allow for conductors to be able to control the doors on either side w/o having to cross to the next car and (dare I say OPTO?).
In NYC the R-62 and R-62A's are slowly being converted to sets of 5 (in most cases - I am not sure how they will do it on the #3). On the #4 they are currently leaving window panel in the left wall of the cab in place. On the #6 they are covering that panel with a metal sheet with a place for advertising.
.
I have not been on the #1 in a while so I am not sure how that is being handled.
In NYC, when the Redbirds, and the R-32 thru R-42's are retired that will be the end of the railfan window (all the R-62 and R-62A's will be converted by then). Of course no one will ever expect to see the single width cab end of the R-68 and R-68A's in the operating postion.
What, no more Slant R40s??? They are still in supurb condition, and I love that railfan window. How many years do they have left?
I am being optomistic but I would say 5 years at the most.
On the No.1 Line there where the first to cover the window with metal sheet.
Also the NO.1/9, and No.6 Line R62A are mostly Transvse. I think there is only one car not Transvse. I think its 1670.
On Philadelphia's BSS there are full cabs, but one can still see in fron of the car. In fact, one can even see into the motorman's cab and view all of the gadgets in there. So full cabs are not necessarily bad.
As for the other lines in Philadelphia, they are getting better, not worse. Philadelphia just retired its M3 cars on the MFSE, which had a front window only on the door, and nothing to the left of the door. The new M4s have regular cabs, a railfan window, and no less then 3 rows of seats behind the window. This is true for all windows at the ends of the 2 car consists.
And yes, the M4s do use OPTO. They have computer screens inside the cab (this site I think has a picutre of them) so that the motorman does not have to look out the window. The bad part about that is that one cannot say hello and good bye to the motorman when one enters or exits.
I got lucky once or twice when the R-68s ran on the Q and got a half-cab facing out. That's a thing of the past.
To us railfans, no railfan window can be considered cruel and unusual punishment. I like what they did on the R-44 cab doors, leaving a small cubbyhole window to look through - as long as it isn't covered up with a newspaper. The cab door window glass on the R-46s and R-68s leaves something to be desired, but you can see something.
With a little TLC, the R-32s will still be around for a while.
10/09/99
Salaam Allah,
Welcome to the new world of OPTO. Those dreaded four letters that spell the end of railfan windows everywhere! Railfan windows are slowly meeting there demise and the windows available are scratched,smudged or plain dirty. Now the open railfan window,that was a treat that couldn't be beat. You probably had your last taste of that on Philly's Market Frankfort just as we did. But goin back in time in NYC our last open window vista was the R-21 and 22's. Although finding an open R-15,16 or 17 porthole window open was like finding a hundred dollar bill! Going back furthur,the BMT D-types and AB's,the ultimate open window experiences.I gues when the final railfan window becomes history,us railfans will have to sit down and avoid looking at the other riders and blend in with the crowd!
Bill Newkirk
Bill Newkirk
Yesterday I saw a mixed train on the B (Four of each, Two units) Is this luck that I saw it or a new practice?
What were the unit numbers?
I would call it a mistake. Although htere is nothing wrong with mixing R-68s with R-68As, the official policy is still not to. Reasoning is that R-68s have NYAB brake equipment while R-68As use WABCO. Though completely comptible, engineering frowns on mixing the two except on the R-32s at Jamaica.
What does NYAB stand for again.
And W A B COmpany stands for
e i r
s r a
t k
i e
n
g
h
o
u
s
e
Right?
New York Air Brake...........Westinghouse Air Brake Co........Didn't understand the rest of it!
NYAB = New York Air Brake
WABCO = Westinghouse Air Brake Co.
Dont try this at home !!!!!
THAT DIDN'T COME OUT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!
Yesterday I saw a mixed train on the B (Four of each, Two units) Is this luck that I saw it or a new practice?
Yesterday I saw a mixed train on the B (Four of each, Two units) Is it luck that I saw this or a new practice?
Sorry for the double post
You mean a quadruple post!
OK, JFK airport should be changed to New York Trump International Airport. Trump is tops in my charts and he will become President of the United States.
Sure beats Reagan international airport.
I'll drink to that thought. New York Trump International Airport has a nice ring to it.
let him pay for traffic and transit improvements out of his only money or raise the fund without new taxes or fare hikes
What the hell is wrong with JFK?? I say keep it the way it is!!!!!!!
Calm down, it is only a suggestion to change the name. Remember "The Donald" is home grown and JFK was from Boston and Cape Cod. The airport should be named after people who are home grown.
BTW, it's Reagan National Airport. And just because you didn't like a politician is no need to be so childish. Can you imagine people who may not have liked FDR making a snide comment about FDR Drive every chance they get. I even walk into the Kennedy Center in Washington without commenting that it should be called the Idlewild Center :-)
Is this an attempt to trump the recent Rudy vs. Hillary thread, with 259 responses at last count. Unless we're discussing rail transit to or within the airport, I think this subject is off-topic.
And Hartsfield Internation Airport should be changed to Ted Turner Airport!
Mayor Hartsfield is home grown and that's OK. JFK wasn't. In Atlanta there is Turner Field for Ted Turner.
While I would love to see a third party president elected, it won't be Donald Trump. He knows nothing about international relations (other than the kind he had with Ivana). And Oprah Winfrey for vice president? They would quickly become nothing but figureheads for the "permanent government" bureaucrats. Think of the show "Yes, Minister", with "President Trump" instead of the Minister. Yuck!
We need a non politicial as President and "The Donald" does not lie about matters. What you see is what you get.
There is a number 3 train with cars 2001 & 2010 coupled together. A coincidence? Or not.
Is there a big black rectangular oblesk in either of them?
If I may ask, what is the significance of these two cars being together? There are 254 cars in the Livonia Fleet. It's not beyond the realm of mathamatical possibilities that these two cars might be added together.
Steve, the category is science fiction movies. Got it now?
Duh, forgive me.... I don't know how that one slipped by me!!!!
2001 & 2010. Very famous sci-fi books and movies. 2001 Directed by Stanley Kubrick. Remember HAL 9000?
So a couple of days ago I was at Church Avenue on the Brighton Line. I was going southbound on a Q and there was a D waiting at the station. Anyway when the D released its brake, the brakes made the EXACT sound as a R-32. But the speed was the same. The Q left a little later nad still caught up before the D coasted.
In my opinion, the best cars are the R-32s and R-38s. They're still fast, sleek, and comfy. Whoever built those cars did a really good job. The biggest pieces of trash, and I know I may get some angry messages over this one, are the R-44s. They're slow as heck, the seats stink, and that wood-type interior makes it feel like riding in a coffin. The R-46s aren't much better, but they're a little more mechanically sound. I think when the IND/BMT gets the new stuff, they should trash the R44s/R46s before anything else. ATTENTION R-44/R46 buffs, if there are any, be gentle.
TJM
I think the R-44 to R-68 seats are THE BEST. Much better than that bench crap. My second favorite car is the R-46 (after the R-32).
You LIKE those seats? God!
The R-32s were built by Budd. That says it all. They have a legitimate shot at breaking the alltime service record for a subway car fleet.
The R-38s are a St. Louis Car Co. product. They may not last as long, as only their skin is stainless steel while the rest of the car structure is of a different alloy and is prone to corrosion.
I feel the same way about the R-44s, but think the R-46s aren't all that bad. Don't get me started on the R-68s.
On what was the southbound track of the NYWB just south of the 180th St. station, the tracks were removed a few weeks ago. Now, the concrete roadbed has also been removed from a section, leaving just the bare steelwork. What is happening? Is this because chunks of concrete have again been falling on the neighborhood?
I heard that they are removing it.
Yes, they have ripped up the tracks and are now removing the trackbed. Looks like a totaldemolition job. Why are they doing it?
Shame, Shame, Shame, Shame, Shame!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This could have been an extension of the secound Avenue Line into the #5 route.
Let me tell you something. I can't believe people would allow this to happen!!!!
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!
Yes, this was the intended route.
This line was old enough that the viaduct would have to be replaced before seeing train service anyway.
This is true. Wasn't it also true that the 2/5 approach from 174th St would have also been realigned to eliminate the sharp curves at East Tremont Ave??
--Mark
The structure is no longer safe to hold up the weight. It will all be condemned. The flagging quarters and the police station are going to be moved as well.
Including the now unused NYW&B E180 St. express platform?
10/09/99
You mean every trace of the old NY W & B at 180th St and south will be razed and removed? I assume the old NY W & B office bldg. will remain. The elevated structure looks stronger than the Manhattan Bridge! We need more info on this,
Bill Newkirk
I don't know the details. But we were told that the PD and flagging offices are moving. Whatever that entails I don't know, because those two places occupy the old platforms.
ANYTHING looks stronger than the Manhattan Bridge.
Special M service will operate between Ninth Ave & Chambers St. to take the place of suspended #4 service between Atlantic Ave. and Brooklyn Bridge.......Split N service between Ditmars Blvd./Queensboro Plaza & Times Square/Coney Island. Use the #7, which will run extra service, as a bridge between the split N services. In actuality, the N will discharge passengers at 42/Times Square run lite and relay at 57/7 and go back into service from 57/7 to Stillwell. R trains will operate from 95 St. under the same arrangement.......Queens IND: for the next 4 weekends, they will finish replacing switches at Continental and other work. No R trains in Queens, split E service between Roosevelt (Queens bound express track D4)/WTC & Jamaica Center/Van Wyck Briarwood (transfer to F) with a relay at Jamaica Yard lead, with the F the only service running thru Queens every 12 minutes, non-stop in both directions from Roosevelt to Continental. Queens bound via local track, Manhattan bound via the Queens bound express track D4, with a relay at Continental from D3 to D4, and back to D3 before it arrives at Roosevelt. Bus service provided in both directions to/from local stations since the F will be unable to handle the passenger loads. Manhattan bound, buses will discharge at 69/Fisk #7 line. I will avoid all these GO's! I'll be in Branford with my 2 boys and another group on Sunday, and we'll be at MN open house next Saturday. I'll be wearing a blue motormans jacket with and Oshkosh Baseball Cap.
Does anybody have any sources for any scrap cars!!! Redbirds any R-types.
Iam looking to get any parts etc.. 1/2 1/4 body etc.
Or any front end body parts body signage ( front header with motormans cab )seats,lighting,strap hangers.
What really looks good and gave me the idea.
Golden deli shop on staten island in the K-mart shopping plaza next
to the SI mall that has a R1-9 1/2 body in the deli full function with fans,lights, dest sign and all Looks really awsome.
I have 9+acres Upstate Ny that I can make this happen.
Thanks Advance for any info...
"Keep on Railing"
Frank.......
nyboy@ix.netcom.com
Why Not buy the whole bleeding thing if you have so much land. It seems to me that a car could be had, delivered for less than @15,000 and if you go into serious scrounge mode a section of track can be had for a few grand more. to power the thing, I am persently working on a battery system up here in Syracuse that could be installed under the seats of a subway car. also, my 23-ton GE switcher is located on just 450 feet of track with a small siding (@200 feet) and there are two other pieces of equipment that it can switch around. a small railroad of this type could be had for less than many people have tied up in model trains and be a lot more fum
We got out of a concert this evening at Midnight on 34th Street and got into the 34th Street/7th Ave Station. We were waiting for a 2 train to take us to Bergen St and we were waiting for about half an hour when an MTA worker came onto the Express Platform and announced that there would be no more Express trains and to catch the 2 on the Local platform. Everyone moved to the Local Platform and the MTA workers blockaded the Express Tracks with a flimsy metal gate and red tape. We waited on the Local side for an hour and a half, 5 1 trains came by but no two's. There was no announcement about what was wrong. Then the two showed up on the Express Track and everyone ran over to it breaking down the metal gate and ripping the tape. We all managed to get on the 2 but there was still no announcement apologizing for inconveniences or explaining what happened. Anybody know why this occured?
Not sure what happened, but it sounds like a 2 train was delayed and they tried to make up some time by having it run express. The 2 now runs local in Manhattan at night to supplement 1 local service.
There was a shooting at 149th St and 3rd Avenue causing a suspension of service between 149th Grand Concourse and E180th St. The police were everywhere, they ran into my home station at Jackson Av. Service was out from 11PM until 2AM.
-Stef
The Sunday NY Times Online article on the Friday shooting on the 2:
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-subway-killing.html
Top Stories
16-Year-Old Gunned Down on Subway
OCTOBER 09TH, 1999
Police are investigating the death of of a Manhattan teen who was gunned down on a subway train.
Cops say the victim, a 16-year-old male, was riding a southbound 2 train at 149th street in the Bronx around 10:45-p.m. Friday night when two men tried to steal his gold chain.
The two unidentified suspects shot the teen in the face. He died at the scene.
Police say they caught one of the suspects, who is being held for questioning.
Please dial 800-722-2116 and demand answers why TA brass sat on tushes and didn't make any announcements for an hour and a half. The workers who blockaded the platform probably didn't know the #2 was going to be express because it is scheduled to be local at night. They weren't even told by supervision of the change in schedules. At NJT, management would be handing out written apologies in your case but at the NYCTA, you are just another dollar fifty to them.
You have a good point in complaining about announcements not being made, but what does the TA have to apologise about? The incident did happen at a bad time operationally: at around the time IRT supervision were preparing for the orderly closure of the #4 line between Brooklyn Bridge & Atlantic Ave. for weekend track/structural work. During the overnite hours, only a skeleton staff of supervision is on duty, similar to any other 24 hour business. While it was a tragedy that a young man was murdered on the subway, handing out written apologies will only contribute more to the litter problem on the trains, stations & tracks. Are you blaming TA brass for a young mans murder?
A man's murder is an unfortunate incident on the subway and has nothing to do with what Im talking about. The skeletonized supervision is no excuse if they are supposed to supervise and state these service changes during incidents to train crews and passengers on platforms. If the TA hires a conductor during rush hours to make public address announcements from dispatcher's offices which they do at Dekalb, Nevins, and Jay Street and don't hire these guys on the midnights, it is NO EXCUSE for the dispatchers who have been making announcements for years before the hiring of Dr. Deekman, not to make an announcement. The Transit Professional will also attest that at other railroads such as NJT, the safe, convenient and efficient transport of passengers is a number one priority. Passengers are informed of delays and in suspension of service, buses are provided in a timely manner with apologies and refunds credited to accounts for inconviences including those of weather related occurances. The TA has the attitude of the trainmaster in Pelham One-Two-Three where he states to the Police "What do they want for their lousy thirty-five cents, live forever"? When a train lays down, I've seen superintendants tuck their safety vests into their bags and pretend nothing happened while the train crews who don't have a clue to what is going down get bombarded with question after question and the occassional abusive passenger. Get over it, we don't serve customers, we serve passenger because of the inadequate tools given to us by the bloated supervisory force, some who don't even ride the trains. I think to make a better system we should initiate a residency requirement mandating ALL supervision to live in the five boroughs and surrender their yard parking decals as they would be forced to ride the Hell on Wheels they have created. Im sorry to see that kid get shot for his chain but I am angry to see hundreds of thousands of straphangers get shot for their tokens.
Times Sqaure Tower Dispatcher is in control on Station Annoutsments from 96 Street to Chambers on the No.1,2,3 Lines. So blame them for that part.
Friday was a bad day for the IRT.
I have a feeling that this will be a very quiet weekend on this site. I imagine most "talkers" are at Branford for "Autumn in New York". We can only envy them being able to get up there for all the festivities, and hope they will post full reports on their return.
We will! Dave Wallace and I and my younger son are going tomorrow, but I suspect that there will be quite a few reports tonight. I'm planning on getting up early tomorrow morning so I can read them before we go.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
See if you can get a look at gate car #1349 while you are there. One side is supposed to be painted green and the other is painted brown. I sure wish I could get there myself.
I agree with Karl, I wish I was there as well! But Im stuck here in Florida, oh well guess Ill settle for watching my new brass BRT 1200's on my layout! Anyone riding Union Railway #316 please say hello to Ron Parente for me.
Talking as a person who was recently for a fabulous 10 day Disney World vacation less than 2 months ago, I wish I were stuck in Florida! But seriously, while we passing thru your hometown on Amtrak, we noticed lots of CSX track replacement & reallignment.
WHERE IS EVERYBODY?
Da--------Da Da Da, Da Da Da Da Da Da
Get it, British Airways TV commercial?
In addition to the error about the opening date of the Brighton Line which I mentioned in a previous post under a different subject heading, I've found the following items, which to the best of my knowledge are also incorrect:
-The chart on pg 8 seems to have a couple of wrong dates:
Manhattan Beach Line opened in 1877
West End Line opened in 1864 (at least that's when it opened to Coney Island. Is it possible that it did open two years earlier, short of Coney?)
-Page 17 states that the 1896 connection to the Fulton El crossed the LIRR at grade. The ramp actually started just north of Prospect Place. This left only two grade crossings on the route to Bedford: at Park Place and at Prospect Place. The ramp thus crossed over the LIRR at Atlantic Ave.
-Page 22 in discussing the rerouting of Brighton trains over the Manhattan Beach line states "exactly how this rerouting was effected remains unclear; perhaps temporary trolley wire was strung over the Long Island Railroad while construction was under way; perhaps BRT elevated trains were hauled along the Long Island by steam engines." According to Seyfried trolley wire was indeed set up over the LIRR to accomodate BRT electric trains.
Re: West End--the line did open first to Bath Beach. I've been back and forth with Joe Brennan on a date. I thought 1865 (at Coney Island)--he thinks as late as 1867. So this seems to still be unproven, IMO.
The "Brighton crossing the LIRR at grade" comment actually startled me! I know there was the ramp at Prospect Place, but Brian's assertion was so definite I wondered whether there was some brief grade crossing situation I didn't know about. Common sense, though, says there was never a grade crossing. It would have fouled the LIRR line, and, in general, railroads cannot force a grade crossing on a pre-existing line if they're opposed with a very difficult-to-obtain order of necessity from a court. For sure, the LIRR wouldn't have wanted such a crossing.
The reason the above gave me pause, though, is because, in most other instances, Brian acknowledges when he doesn't know the answer to something, or at least says something like "we don't know" or "it remains unclear." But I think it is 99.9% the Atlantic Ave. crossing didn't exist.
I was also a bit surprised that he knew the Brighton used the LIRR r-o-w (which was later completely dismantled) during the grade crossing project, but didn't know that it was strung with trolley wire for the Brighton trains. It would have been an incredible mess to have to switch to steam for the frequent BRT trains.
In checking in with my memory I remember a 1947 article on the West End Line which claimed that the line opened in 1864 as a horse car line, was converted to steam using dummy type engines in 1865 and was extended to Coney Island in 1867. I'll look for that article.
<< In checking in with my memory I remember a 1947 article on the West End Line which claimed that the line opened in 1864 as a horse car line >>
The book, "The Brooklyn Elevated" states the same.
Right, but "Brooklyn Elevated" doesn't go on to mention the change to steam in 1865 or the extension to Coney Island in 1867.
>>>The book, "The Brooklyn Elevated" states the same. <<<
I've been looking for that book for some time. Struck out with Amazon & BN; haven't tried the Strand or ebay yet. Did you get your copy when it was new?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Try Advanced Book Exchange at abebooks.com. Don't konw if they have that particular book but I've found stuff there that none of those other places have ever heard of.
>>>abebooks.com.<<<
No luck but thanks.
Also try Bibliofind (www.bibliofind.com) - a lot of the same dealers who list on ABE also list there, but there are some that only use one or the other. ABE appeals to the genealogy crowd, Bibliofind has more of an emphasis on the popular stuff. I automatically check both. Sometimes a dealer will list one price on ABE and a different one on Bibliofind, so it pays to look!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
>>>abebooks.com.<<<
No luck but thanks.
I have seen it at Caboose Hobbies in Denver.
This book is available at the museum store in the Shoreline Trolley Museum in East Haven, CT.
I already have the 2000 NY subway calendar. How can I
purchase the Philadelphia version?
10/09/99
The publisher who publishes my Subway Calendar does the Philadelphia Transit calendar as well as others. Here are instructions for requesting a copy by regular mail,his E-mail system is not ready yet.
WEEKEND CHIEF PUBLISHING
PO BOX 165
HICKSVILLE,NY 11801-0165
Bill Newkirk
Do they sell any such calednars at the transit museum in either Philadelphia or New York?
10/10/99
Well my NYC Subways Calendar is now being sold at the NY Transit Museum gift shops , call to see if they are available before making the trip. They don't sell the Philadelphia Transit calendar.
As for SEPTA's Transit Museum store , call first before making the trip. They didn't carry my NYC Subway Calendar last year and bought regular railroad calendars that didn'y do well. When SEPTA bought my a few years ago,they all sold out and people were still asking for them. I'm trying to get them to carry it this year,but they don't return my calls! Go figure! As a last resort,refer to my earlier post and utilize regular mail to request a copy from Weekend Chief.
Bill Newkirk
Bill Newkirk
Last Friday I stopped at Willis Hobbies in Mineola. They had several ______ 2000 caledars. I remember a Subway, an LIRR, and I believe a Streetcar one among others. They may have the Philly one. Call 516 information for their number. I think they have a website called Willishobbies.com. Try it and perhaps you can e-mail them from there.
Bill, I got yours at Branford last August.
Shoreline at Branford still had a few this weekend. You can also buy stuff via the phone from the TA museum and sometimes they have a give away with a $30 order (I got a subway poster of the 1st 77 MCs that way a few months back).
Mr t__:^)
On Saturday, October 9th, 1999
R-68 unit number 2714 has a defective door. Door number 2 doesn't open. And some dude left his coat on it but that doesn't matter.
Try contacting a memorabilia retailer I met who may be involved on this site. Alan Zelazo, Whistle & Rollsign Store, 5 Brentwood Drive, Morris Plains, New Jersey 07950. My last catalog from him is dated september 1998. The web site address on his catalog is http://members.aol.com/SubwayAl/subwaymemorabilia.index.html an e-mail address is: subwayal@aol.com. I tried the website and couldn't get through. Maybe if Mr. Zelazo sees this message and wishes to correct or provide an address for his website he will. Thank you for that one on one tour at Kingston today and letting me make-believe I drove # 6938. I bought the calendar.
Hey! Are you coming up next weekend for the special excursion? We're going to haul 6398 around with loco #9 up the mountain to town and also out to Kingston point on the Hudson.
The Ulster and Delaware Excursion, which will pass through on the same day, will it be there at the right time?
It's all part of the same NHRS trip.
So I get a subway car too. Yay!!!
I spent the day at Seashore in Kennebunkport, where we had our annual "Members' Day." Most of my day was spent instructing and piloting our members who are not qualified, so that they would have the opportunity to run many of our cars. The only New York representative I ran was Third Avenue 631 (sister car to Branford's 629). But we had out all kinds of other great street cars and interurbans.
I hope those of you who went to Branford has a great a day as I did at Seashore!
Next Saturday will be a transit & weather together day for me in NYC, which I'm looking forward to given all of the GOs Bill has told us about...
Does anyone have a map of the Far Rockaway line when it was still all LIRR? I want to see what the configuration was like before the MTA changed part of it to subway. I'm sure there is a map somewhere on this site, but I can't find it. A track map would be ideal. Thanks.
It was probably the same, just some crossovers were different. The 4 tracking continued north of Liberty further to the Whitepot Undejump (Whitepot is old name for Forest Hills), which would be an interesting thing for a track map. Anyway, get a track map of the LIRR Far Rockaway line and extend two tracks from the current terminal to the Mott Avenue Subway terminal.
The stations from the main line to Broad Channel were:Rego Park (on the Main Line but since closed)ParksideBrooklyn ManorOzone ParkAqueductHoward BeachHamilton BeachThe RauntBroad Channel
I know the Raunt is an island in the bay, but could one get there any way other than train? What was there? Did it last until the suspension of cross-bay train service in 1951? (was it 1951?)
Eugenius, I was just going by a couple of books of the LIRR including one devoted exclusively to the Rockaway Branch, the one I mentioned earlier, "Change at Ozone Park". Unfortunately it doesn't say much about the area around The Raunt other than it is a small island. However there is a picture of the station and it didn't look like much, 2 shelters and an overhead crossover-sort of like one of the old stations on the LIC branch. However the photo is from 1933 and it probably was renovated afterward. Trains did stop there up until the day of the fire.
Also the book mentions a station called Goose Creek between Hamilton Beach and The Raunt. It was closed in the 30's when most of the buildings on the island closed down with the pollution of Jamaica Bay. That station looked like a regular station in the photo.
BTW, the 1rst time I rode on the Rockaway Branch it was already the IND. I rode on an "E" (an R1-9) when my grandmother moved to Rockaway. The "E" went to Rockaway during rush hours in those days, all the way from 179 St.
P.S. Sorry I got rid of my page talk message. I know you liked it!!!
"The "E" went to Rockaway during rush hours in those days, all the way from 179 St."
The longest route in subway history, right? The C to Beford Park and now the current A arrangement.
Jeff: That's right. The longest possible route was the E from 179 St to Far Rockaway which was a little more than 36 miles.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I wonder if you could do a round trip in one shift.
Not on an R-68 :)
--Mark
You could read War and Peace from cover to cover if that were the case. Or Gone With the Wind.
I believe part of The Raunt was rebuild by the NYCTA when they claimed ownership to the Rockaway Line around the same time they rebuild the bridge.
Today, the island that is referred to as The Raunt is under the jurisdication of the National Parks Service as part of the Gateway estuary system. Only the fenced in ROW is property of NYCT and the City of New York. Since the Gateway system was not around during the time of LIRR service (it was enacted in 1971), I would assume that the LIRR had claims to The Raunt.
Doug aka BMTman
Rego park was on the mainline? Where?
10/10/99
Right where the Westbound Rockaway track left the underjump and joined the mainline. There is a small trestle there today. the platform was west of the trestle. No traces remain today.Photos are in the book "Change at Ozone Park". Page 19 shows the platform as high level , page 22 shows abbreviated low level platforms.
Bill Newkirk
What's left of it doesn't look like the 4-track extended North of Atlantic Avenue. It looks like it was 2-track from between the Atlantic Branch and the Mainline.
Oops, I meant further TOWARDS Whitepot. I didn't think it extended as four track the whole way.
Tony, you should buy the book "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George. It is a history of the LIRR Rockaway branches with plenty of pictures. There are timetables of the round robin to Rockaway Park through the Rockaway Line from Ozone Pk & Howard Beach (through the present day "A" Train route) and returning through the present day LIRR route through Valley Stream. (and the reverse round robin) There are a number of maps, although the only track maps are at selected interlockings and yards.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try my OUTRAGEOUS color quiz!!!
I should have mentioned in my previous post that I bought a copy at the transit museum.
According to the MTA, such a ride is possible on one ticket, but since tickets are punched three times, how would the tickets be collected on this trip if you end up taking four trains? One would start at Montauk Branch station then goto Babylon, Babylon to Jamaica, Jamaica to Ronkonkoma and Ronkonkoma to a Greenport Shuttle station.
An educated guess says that the ticket would be punched on the "West" side of the ticket for the first legs (one punch each), then one punch on the "East" side Jamaica-Ronkonkoma, then lifted on the Greenport Scoot.
I'm not sure its important if there is an "official" way to handle this. Many conductors, faced with an unusual situation (passenger sleeps through stop, stopover) just punt. They'll return the ticket to the passenger and write an explanation on the back of the ticket for the next conductor.
I wonder that anyone has actually taken that routing except as a railfan experience.
I'm curious as to how the railroad figures its tariff on this. The web site shows they would almost (but not quite) charge you for a trip to Montauk-Jamaica and another Jamaica-Greenport.
OTOH, punching up a cross-island Zone 9 trip from Babylon to Huntington routes it via Hicksville, charging just a 75 cent premium over the regular 9 to 9 fare.
FWIW, there actually used to be a North Fork to South Fork train, probably the first LIRR train called "Scoot," which ran from Greenport to Amagansett (one stop short of Montauk) one rt daily.
[I wonder that anyone has actually taken that routing except as a railfan experience.
I'm curious as to how the railroad figures its tariff on this. The web site shows they would almost (but not quite) charge you for a trip to Montauk-Jamaica and another Jamaica-Greenport.]
Is it possible to make a Montauk-Greenport trip with the direction change at Hicksville (or Mineola) vs. Jamaica? Wish I had some schedules handy ...
It's possible to make the trip from Patchogue (but not Montauk) by making the change at Mineola. There's one westbound from Patchogue (6:53) in the AM which stops at Mineola at 7:57 AM and the Ronkonkoma/Greenport (via bus in the latest timetable) leaves Mineola in the opposite direction at 8:15 AM and arrives in Greenport at 10:32 AM.
Of course, if you were coming from Montauk, you'd have to catch the 12:52 AM which gets into Patchogue at 2:38 AM and wait four hours for the Mineola train (I hear there's plenty to do in Patchogue at that hour).
You'd probably be better off just swimming from fork to fork.
10/09/99
Or maybe when the first conductor hears the passengers wild tale of going from Montauk to Greenport would probably exclaim:
"Not for nuttin',wouldn't be easier to hire a cab and go through Shelter Island to Greenport ?"
Bill Newkirk
I'm not sure if any Babylon Express trains through the old Central Branch (through Bethpage, Lindenhurst,etc) stop at Hicksville or Mineola. I think they all go non-stop to Babylon. I might be wrong though.
There is one inbound and two outbound Babylon/Montauk Line trains that stop on the Main Line.
The 252p Jamaica-Patchogue makes only Mineola.
The 444p Hunterpoint-Patchogue makes Mineola and Hicksville
(The latter train used to originate at LIC and use the Montauk Nranch--I'll have to look into that)
The 653a Patchogue-LIC makes Hicksville and Mineola.
When they added Mineola to the Montauk Line public TT, they hailed "Cross-Island Service." Yeah, right.
Like I said, I wasn't sure.
I originally thought it would be zone to zone (and therefore much cheaper as it would be one zone) but if that was the case anyone going to Jamaica from Montauk could just buy a ticket to Greenport and get off at Jamaica. (Unless they gave a rebate upon proof of completion) Similarly, anyone going from Oyster Bay to Jamaica could buy a ticket to Port Washington. I think like a cop, right?
I expected them to charge a Zone 14 (Montauk/Greenport) to Zone 2 (Jamaica) fare, but I didn't expect the fare to be almost double.
A peak fare (and remember only one direction can be peak) is $22.00.
Can't imagine why. It seems the LIRR thinks that way, too. I tried something similar a few years ago. Any continuous trip that requires going West to Jamaica and then East on a diferent line costs the same as two separate tickets, to and from Jamaica. They may not know how to run a railroad, but they weren't born yesterday.
About 15 years ago, I used to ride a few times a month from Rockville Centre to Roslyn. The agent at RVC would sell me a ticket that had both a westbound and eastbound punch area. The cost of the ticket was the same as if I were travelling only from RVC to Jamaica.
I believe that the fare was part of some special "intra Long Island" deal, and that the tickets could only bought in stations -- not from a conductor on the train. Essentially you paid for the longer leg of your trip. So if you wanted to go from Long Beach to Babylon via Lynbrook, you'd pay the Lynbrook to Babylon fare and the Long Beach to Lynbrook was free.
I guess this deal went the way of the "Special Sunday round-trip" ($2.35 round trip from Zone 5 to Shea Stadium with $2 general admission -- of course the 1978 Mets probably weren't worth $4.35!!)
Chuck
Given the spotty LIRR schedule east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon (two round trips a day?), is this trip even possible?
There are two round trips to Greenport, Three make it as far as Riverhead (counting the GP two) and Four to Yaphank (counting the above again). On weekends, two trains run out to GP.
The Montauk Branch has 22 trains on Friday. Since the Cannonball runs on Fridays only, only 21 trains run other weekdays. Eight terminate at Patchogue and another 8 at Speonk. One goes to Easthampton and the other 5 to Montauk. Sixteen eastbound and 21 westbound run on weekends. In westbound service, eight trains start at Patchogue and 9 end, six west and five east at Speonk and the remaining 7 at Montauk including the Cannonball. Eastbound, 6 trains run to Patchogue, 5 to Speonk and the remaining 5 to Montauk.
I wouldn't consider the entire Montauk Branch to be so spotty.
BTW, does the LIRR have a printed Greenport timetable, or would one have to use the Ronkonkoma timetable?
EDT --
Greenport service is included in the Ronkonkoma branch schedule.
Chuck
Thanks for the answer. What I really wanted to know is what street the two connecting tracks ran on. Also, were the tracks still elevated on the subway end? Did they dip down? And, which was the original station? These may seem like dumb questions, but I'm a young guy, 22, and this configuration was before my time. It stinks being a young train buff. I missed all the good stuff
It stinks being a young train buff. I missed all the good stuff.
I thought the same thing, born in 1946. I joined the ERA young (1958), just in time to meet all the older railfans who were then scrambling around to cover trolley lines before they all passed out of existence.
Look at the bright side. Unlike 1958, when rail transit was in a steep decline, services are now expanding. You'll be seeing new things after I'm just a memory.
You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway.
Yes, and to add a bit onto Paul's post, you should also be inspired by the fact that there are some places you can go and see vintage equipment still in running condition. This includes the Brandford/Shoreline Trolley Museum in Conn. I just went yesterday and became a member. They have an impressive collection of cars. My particular favorite was their nearly mint condition IND R-9 subway car. There was also a BMT Standard and a SIR "Standard". Not to mention the R-17 that I got to run down their mainline (YEAH!). It looks great, but still needs alittle more TLC (a plug for Stef).
Even though you may have missed seeing and riding some models of legendary subway cars while in revenue service, if you can find the time to get to places like Branford or Kennebukport(sp?), Maine (a plug for Todd) you will be pleasantly surprised that rapid transit history does indeed live on.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks for the plug, Doug. It's the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. Just 5-1/2 hours from NYC.
>>>>You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway. <<<
So what do *you* think will happen with 2nd Avenue?
Will they build the two track "stubway" between 125th and 63rd? This ignores Bronx riders and Lower East Side riders.
Will they build a four track trunk line between the Bronx and Brooklyn, which I think they should do? It would take private funding. Maybe Trump could help if he gets bored running for President and he's between supermodels.
Or will they debate it for years, and finally punt when another recession comes?
The three top possibilities for what will happen in the next 20 years or so (in order of probability).
I'm not goofing, either.
Top scenario. The MTA, Giuliani and Pataki will give Silver a face-saving "out" by promising to "seriously plan" a full Second Avenue Subway. Construction will commence on the 63rd-125th St. segment (2 tracks) and, with universal political commitment it actually gets done before 2010.
Second most likely scenario: Silver "hangs tough" on the 2nd Avenue subway. To avoid a total logjam, the state goes along, and a new DEIS is needed for the area south of 63rd St (delay of 2-3 years). The full flying junction north-east-south-west is completed at 2nd Avenue/53rd Street and digging is done in Silver's Lower East Side District. The City's next fiscal crisis causes it to withdraw its share of funding, and we are left with uncompleted subway sections, but more of them, and a great junction for Peter Dougherty to depict in his Track of New York book.
Third most likely scenario: Silver effectively blocks GCT-LIRR until he gets a commitment of a "full Second Avenue subway." This stalemate lasts until Silver realizes he won't be the next Governor. Neither the GCT-LIRR nor any part of 2nd Avenue gets built because the State spent the money on road improvments in Syracuse and Utica.
N.B. My personal opinion is that the 125th-63rd plan should be pushed, then rekindle the fires for the rest of the line.
The reason I believe this is long experience with bureaucracy, especially NY bureaucracy. I really believe that the uptown segment stands a shot of getting built, and soon, because it has been designed with practicality in mind. The routing from Lex/125 to 63rd, then via the Broadway Express may not be ideal, but it is viable. in NYC-politik-think, this means that they may actually be serious.
When they're not serious, they promise pie-in-the-sky, because by the time it finally sinks into the prols that nothing getting built, the pols have long since gone on to greener pastures. Early in the '70s, we are promised a candy store of new lines. Of them, only the Archer Avenue Line was built (two decades later) and the 63rd Street to Queens (two-three decades later).
10/10/99
When you look at the proposed Second Avenue subway at a distance it does look a little embarrassing that a line proposed since the 20's some seventy years later has not been built and there are arguments on how build it. It's more embarrassing to discontinue the Third and Second Avenue elevated lines and promise a replacement subway and for various reasons scuttle the project for decades!
Bill Newkirk
Does the contractor who did the Willie B also do tunnels?
I'm at a loss to understand why it would take 10+ years to do this 2nd ave line - I mean, wasn't the origional IRT done in 4? :)
And frankly, I wish they'd stop studing the damm thing and JUST DO IT. A subway line, ANY line (all the way) down 2nd ave is going to get heavy ridership. Who cares if it zigs a block here or there? Dust off the plans from the 70's and use them. Here's an idea - can't decide 2 track Vs 3 Vs 4? Build the tunnels as 4 track, finish them off as 2, and if you need the extra capacity, add the other two later. Creative minds could even figure a way out to make it so they could slap express stops wherever they want.
But just build the darn thing already. NYers *know* it's going to tear up the city for a while, we KNOW there's going to be an environmental impact, we KNOW it's going to cost money. WE DON'T CARE. Ask anyone - the vast majority of people WANT this. Heck, even the AAA wants - and we know how pro mass transit they are.
I mean, does someone have to hit Pataki and the MTA over the head a few times before they figure this out?
On a side note - why has the MTA suddenly gotten so hyper about an LIRR link up to GCT? Who's been calling for THAT?
IMHO, any governor candidate that promises a full 2nd ave line in 5 years, will win the NY area, hands down.
Any idea of the total costs and more importantly, any suggestions on how to pay for it?
[>>>>You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway. <<<
So what do *you* think will happen with 2nd Avenue?
Will they build the two track "stubway" between 125th and 63rd? This ignores Bronx riders and Lower East Side riders.
Will they build a four track trunk line between the Bronx and Brooklyn, which I think they should do? It would take private funding. Maybe Trump could help if he gets bored running for President
and he's between supermodels.
Or will they debate it for years, and finally punt when another recession comes?]
I hate saying this, but I'm afraid it'll be the "punt" option. It's been what, 70 years since the plan first came about? Just about the only way that words might get translated into action is if there's a big public outcry insisting on the line's completion. But I fear that too many people have fallen into the grin and bear it mode, and just keep jamming themselves onto the Lex. Which is really a shame, in that the Upper East Side has plenty of big shots who *could* get things accomplished if they tried.
Another reason why there may never be a Second Avenue line has to do with the nature of cities. It's been predicted that the "decentralization" of the economy, prompted in particular by computers and telecommunications, will make cities (including of course NYC) less important. Under this theory, most businesses will be able to locate just about anywhere and therefore will leave cities on account of higher urban costs. There'd be no need to build the Second Avenue subway because there'd be no demand for one.
Now, it's important to note that this "decentralization" hasn't actually happened to anywhere near the extent predicted (the move of jobs to suburban office parks is old news by now), and indeed may never happen. I'm one of the people who believes that cities are in no danger of losing the economic importance. But it must be acknowledged that there is at least a possibility of this happening, and in that sense there's still risk factor as far as the Second Avenue line is concerned.
Leave it to the tree huggers. They'll keep too many of us from escaping NYC.
Another reason why there may never be a Second Avenue line has to do with the nature of cities. It's been predicted that the "decentralization" of the economy, prompted in particular by computers and telecommunications, will make cities (including of course NYC) less important. Under this theory, most businesses will be able to locate just about anywhere and therefore will leave cities on account of higher urban costs. There'd be no need to build the Second Avenue subway because there'd be no demand for one.
This was a popular theory about 5-10 years ago, but is quickly becoming disproved as more and more cities find themselves in the midst of a renaissance of sorts, due in large part to the influx of newer high-tech companies.
Contrary to what the "experts" predicted, the booming high-tech industries seem to be having the effect of actually strengthening the cities. Many of the new Internet-related startup companies are small firms that do not have the resources to build their own suburban campus, but can easily lease space in an exisiting downtown office building. There are technical advantages to being in a centralized hub where infrastructure and communications converge. Also, and more importantly, the younger owners and workers of these high-tech firms are realizing the cultural advantages of being located at the nexus of creative energy that great cities have to offer. These are things that will never be replaced by a suburban office park, and people are just now beginning to appreciate that fact.
The anti-urban mindset that has prevailed over the last half of this century appears to be coming to an end, and hopefully will soon be looked upon as just a brief abberation compared to the thousands of years in which cities have served as the focal points of human civilization.
Reccommended reading: "The Death and Life of Great American Cities" by Jane Jacobs, and "City: Rediscovering the Center" by William H. Whyte.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
[re decline of cities and dispersal of jobs]
[This was a popular theory about 5-10 years ago, but is quickly becoming disproved as more and more cities find themselves in the midst of a renaissance of sorts, due in large part to the influx of newer high-tech companies.
Contrary to what the "experts" predicted, the booming high-tech
industries seem to be having the effect of actually strengthening the
cities. Many of the new Internet-related startup companies are small
firms that do not have the resources to build their own suburban campus, but can easily lease space in an exisiting downtown office building.]
I agree with you; as best I can tell, the main proponents of the "cities will decline" theory are anti-urban types who bascially are trying to create sekf-fulfilling prophecies. There indeed does seem to have been a reversal in urban fortunes in the past ten years or so. It might have come about when people started realizing that life in the suburbs is not perfect and indeed can bring with it some of the same problems encountered in cities.
Even so, we should recognize that there *is* a chance, however small, that cities will decline as time goes on, thereby lessening the need for transit. It's unlikely to happen, but that doesn't mean that it never will.
There are technical advantages to being in a centralized hub where
infrastructure and communications converge. Also, and more importantly,
the younger owners and workers of these high-tech firms are realizing
the cultural advantages of being located at the nexus of creative energy
that great cities have to offer. These are things that will never be
replaced by a suburban office park, and people are just now beginning to
appreciate that fact.
The "comeback of cities" is based on supply and demand. There are more people around that appreciate the value of a neighborhood, and a dynamic environment. So there is more demand. At the same time, the supply of viable cities has shrunk, with so many no longer anything more than the poorest suburb in the region. So there is a shortage.
A rare confluence of positives (luck) is also playing a part in the so-called 're-birth' of cities. An unusually strong ecomomy, a few successful high profile mayors, positive national and international press and in New York's case a substantial reduction in crime. So in this little time period that we all in right now things look great for cities. Remove any two of the positive items noted above and the cycle of decline could resume. I'm skeptical, as we've seen this 're-birth' phenomena before, like in the booming 1980s.
Assuming its properly taken, the census will give an idea what is happening in New York City. Since both 1989-90 and 1999-00 will be good economic years, cyclical factors (whether or not a recession happens to be on) will be winnowed out. You'll be comparing peak to peak.
Note that the census asks about income in the prior year, so the income data is for 1989/1999. Interestingly, I just heard that nationally, median household income has just made it back to the level of 1989, just in time for the next census.
As for a confluence of positive factors, NYC, for one, has been flying into a demographic hurricane. For 50 years, middle-income families with children have left the city (lousy schools, crime, small number of owner occupied homes with 3+ bedrooms, etc). On the other hand, young single people, including the affluent and college educated, have moved in. As the baby boomers have reached child-raising age, with fewer young adults to replace them, the influx of college grads you saw in the late 1970s and 1980s has slowed. When the children of the baby boomers reach adulthood, however, lots of em will want to live here, and there are lots of them. In addition, we're seeing a backflow of older adults back into the city when the kids leave.
[As for a confluence of positive factors, NYC, for one, has been flying into a demographic hurricane. For 50 years, middle-income families with children have left the city (lousy schools, crime, small number of owner occupied homes with 3+ bedrooms, etc). On the other hand, young single people, including the affluent and college educated, have moved in. As the baby boomers have reached child-raising age, with fewer young adults to replace them, the influx of college grads you saw in the late 1970s and 1980s has slowed. When the children of the baby boomers reach adulthood, however, lots of em will want to live here, and there are lots of them. In addition, we're seeing a backflow of older adults back into the city when the kids leave.]
I keep hearing that families with children are leaving the city in droves ... but I dunno. I work at Fifth Avenue and 14th Street, an area with a large number of residences in addition to commercial uses. And children seem to be everywhere. Sometimes it seems like every other female at the Union Square Greenmarket is carrying a baby or small child, or at the very least has a stomach sticking out to here. Infants and toddlers being shepherded by nannies are a constant sight on the sidewalks. Yes, it could be that families are more likely to leave when the children turn school age, but I suspect the common stereotype needs a little rethinking.
(Are middle income families leaving the city in droves).
These days, more middle income families want to stay in the city. Crime, which used to drive people out, is down, and there is a growing appreciation of the benefits of city living.
But many can't without chaning their expectations. Middle income Americans expect to own a home, and to have a bedroom for each child. But only 30 percent of NYC's housing units have three or more bedrooms, compared with 60 percent nationally. If you are rich or get lucky you get one of those 30 percent -- those in Manhattan are rich, and I am lucky -- I bought my rowhouse in 1994. Otherwise, you are out of luck. I can't tell you how many friends have been priced out of Windsor Terrace and moved away reluctantly.
Schools are another issue. Unless you are willing to play the political game and get your kid into a "special" program, or can buy your way out, NYC schools are generally poor. We bought our way out, but we are Catholic, and Catholic schools are much cheaper than most other private schools.
The three-bedroom problem doesn't apply to empty nesters. A two-bedroom coop apartment will do fine. Schools are not an issue either. I expect the baby bommers AND their kids to come pushing into the city from the suburbs in the next economic upturn.
Higher and lower densities each have their advantages. Higher densities give you a community, services you can walk to, and transit. Lower densities give you green space. It seems that the most desirable areas are those that have some of the advantages of both -- city neighborhoods near parks, and older suburbs with a "main street" and a commuter rail stop.
The appeal of tract developments seems to go down once the buildings hit 50 years old. An official at the SI Chamber of Commerce once told me that he is more worried about the South Shore going downhill, once those 1980s buildings get old, than the North Shore. Sooner of later, the wave of wealth out of Manhattan will roll over the North Shore and turn it around. The main appeal of the South Shore is that it is new.
>>>>Otherwise, you are out of luck. I can't tell you how many friends have been priced out of Windsor Terrace and moved
away reluctantly. <<<
My friend Gerry, a Brooklynite his whole life, got married recently and they reluctantly had to move to Cold Spring Harbor to find a 6 room house at an affordable price. Gerry was in Park Slope since 1984 and would have gladly stayed. But he and many solid middle class citizens like him are being priced out.
I laugh at talk show hosts like Sean Hannity who believe that the market should drive housing costs. Without rent controls, NYC would become the residence of Trump, Perlman and the guy shaking the cup on the train shouting 'good evening ladies and gentlemen.'
[I laugh at talk show hosts like Sean Hannity who believe that the market should drive housing costs. Without rent controls, NYC would become the residence of Trump, Perlman and the guy shaking the cup on the train shouting 'good evening ladies and gentlemen.']
During his "poor," pre-comeback phase, when he was a hundred million dollars in debt, Donald Trump is supposed to have pointed to a skell and remarked that since the skell presumably owed nothing as well as owned nothing, he was a hundred million dollars richer than Trump himself.
[A rare confluence of positives (luck) is also playing a part in the so-called 're-birth' of cities. An unusually strong ecomomy, a few successful high profile mayors, positive national and international press and in New York's case a substantial reduction in crime. So in this little time period that we all in right now things look great for cities. Remove any two of the positive items noted above and the cycle of decline could resume. I'm skeptical, as we've seen this 're-birth' phenomena before, like in the booming 1980s.]
It's hard for me to comment about the 1980s in NYC because I wasn't working there at the time and didn't pay much attention to its affairs. But I do have some observations about Connecticut, where I was living and working and which, like NYC, went through a pronounced boom-and-bust cycle during the decade. One thing that was quite obvious only in hindsight (naturally!) was that Connecticut's boom was the proverbial mile wide and inch deep. While job numbers expanded at a dizzying rate, a disturbingly high percentage of the new jobs fed off the real estate boom - construction contractors, real estate agencies, mortgage lenders, and so on - and therefore went down the tubes once real estate cooled off. Most other sectors of the economy were growing slowly if at all. Manufacturing, long the mainstay of Connecticut's economy, actually declined during the boom years. And the real estate boom was far more fragile than anyone realized. Quality went completely out the window; people were getting into frenzied bidding wars for mediocre properties in mediocre areas. Builders were putting up houses and, especially, condominiums in poor locations with zero market appeal (had anyone looked at them dispassionately). In the commercial market, speculative building ran amok. It seemed like banks and other lenders would finance anything, no matter how hare-brained. It's not surprising that the real estate bubble burst, and without its support the rest of the economy couldn't hold on. The result was the Great Recession of (roughly) 1990 to 1993, one which people aren't likely to forget.
NYC today seems to be going through a sounder economic period. No one sector dominates the job market - contrary to popular belief, Wall Street is a relatively minor employer in percentage terms and isn't increasing much if at all. Inevitable weakness in one sector shouldn't pull down the whole economy. While real estate prices are increasing rapidly overall, not every location or type of property is sharing in the boom. This is good, as it shows there's an appreciation for quality. An excellent example of this can be seen just outside the city's borders. Average home prices have been declining in Nassau County, presumably because buyers are being scared off by the county's fiscal woes. In a true bubble, Nassau prices would keep rising in spite of these woes. Finally, and potentially most important, there is relatively little speculative building in the commercial real estate market (probably attributable to more cautious lenders).
As a result, I believe that NYC of the 1990s is more stable than Connecticut (and probably NYC, for that matter) of the late 1980s. Obviously this doesn't mean that there's zero risk of another bust. But I highly doubt one is just around the corner.
"Also, and more importantly, the younger owners and workers of these high-tech firms are realizing the cultural advantages of being located at the nexus of creative energy that great cities have to offer. These are things that will never be replaced by a suburban office park, and people are just now beginning to appreciate that fact."
I agree, but when USA Today did a cover story a few weeks ago on the Chicago City Council approving the plans for the world's tallest building, 7 South Dearborn (good location, but they gotta get a better name than just the address), they included some crap about really big skyscrapers not being built in the U.S. in the last couple of decades because skyscrapers represent a business culture that is the antithesis of the modern, young, high-tech entrepeneur. Also something to the effect of "after all, the biggest high-tech companies are locating in suburban campuses outside Seattle, not New York high-rises."
Yeah, that's why I pass two locations where new 60-70 story office towers are going to be built on my bus ride from Union Station to my office, and several smaller (15-30 story) office buildings have been built or are being built just west of Union and Northwestern Stations on land that was parking lots less than five years ago. That's why they opened the new Blue Cross offices on East Randolph less than a year ago and the owners are already applying to add twenty stories (the building was designed to have extra stories added). And that's just office development. If you add the stores being built on or just off the Mag Mile and the several Class C buildings being renovated to condos or a mix of condos and offices, it seems one of the biggest occupations in downtown Chicago now is construction.
Where does a rootless, pablum piece of fluff like USA Today (newsboxes made to resemble televisions, bah!) get off coming up with that kind of nonsense?
[... when USA Today did a cover story a few weeks ago on the Chicago City Council approving the plans for the world's tallest building, 7 South Dearborn (good location, but they gotta get a better name than just the address), they included some crap about really big skyscrapers not being built in the U.S. in the last couple of decades because skyscrapers represent a business culture that is the antithesis of the modern, young, high-tech entrepeneur. Also something to the effect of "after all, the biggest high-tech companies are locating in suburban campuses outside Seattle, not New York high-rises."]
What, you expected _accuracy_ out of USA Today??? Just because "McPaper" has colorful weather maps doesn't mean that it knows anything about news. I also got a chuckle out of the fact they mentioned "New York high-rises," as they have a pronounced and rather obvious anti-New York bias.
One interesting factoid: USA Today's headquarters is not in one of the suburban office campuses they extol. It's in a high-rise office building in Reston, Virginia, which is really a part of downtown Washington.
...and the building, along with a couple of others in Arlington, were the subjects of controversy when they were built, because they were taller than the Washington Monument, the first buildings in the downtown and adjecent areas to violate that unwritten rule.
If USA Today and Gannett don't like skyscrapers, they should move the corporate headquarters back to Rochester.
Decentralization via telecommunications is coming. It is still too early to tell how it will impact cities. But I think that the long-term effect will mean fewer people working in the cities over time. In NYC the New York Stock Exchange is debating it's very future in the face of electronic trading. Whatever they do will set the tone for the entire finance industry in the world. If they decide they don't need a huge physical prescence any more because telecom technology has made that obsolete, then there will be a lot of available office space in Manhattan over the next few years.
[Decentralization via telecommunications is coming. It is still too early to tell how it will impact cities. But I think that the
long-term effect will mean fewer people working in the cities over time. In NYC the New York Stock Exchange is debating it's very future in the face of electronic trading. Whatever they do will set the tone for the entire finance industry in the world. If they decide they don't need a huge physical prescence any more because telecom technology has made that obsolete, then there will be a lot of available office space in Manhattan over the next few years.]
Your example isn't quite on the mark. There's no debate over the NYSE's "very future," only over whether there's a need for a large traditional trading floor. It's possible, though far from certain, that the NYSE will end up recasting itself more along NASDAQ lines, with trades being executed electronically rather than on a trading floor. If that does come to pass, there's no reason to believe that the NYSE's space requirements or employment levels would be greatly affected. Sure, the floor traders might be gone, but despite their high visibility they're a minor presence in the grand scheme of things.
As far as the rest of the financial services industry is concerned, I also do not foresee any dramatic changes resulting from telecommunications. Bear Stearns and Morgan Stanley are building major facilities in Midtown. As large, sophisticated corporations, moreover ones answerable to shareholders, they would not be incurring these huge expenses without a great deal of planning and a recognition that indeed their office space and employment levels are likely to remain high. Chase Manhattan is looking for up to one million square feet of office space in Manhattan for expansion of its operations, even as it announced plans to relocate 3,500 mostly pink-collar jobs to other locations over the next few years.
What we might indeed see happening, presumably in other major cities as well as in New York, is a movement toward a higher-output workforce. That is, an increasing percentage of the jobs in urban locations will be ones at higher skill and pay levels. More and more of the lesser-skilled, low-value-added clerical jobs indeed will relocate, to cheaper parts of the country and increasingly to overseas locations. Because total numbers won't decline precipitously, the need for transit will remain strong. Indeed, to the extent that the city workforce is more affluent and presumably more influential, the demands for better transit service may become more difficult for governments to ignore.
Will a two track 2nd Avenue line really reduce over crowding on the 4,5, and 6? I think not. On top of that, the fact the line will not be on 2nd Avenue below 63rd Street. Besides that, what about the fact the line will go from west to east (lexington Avenue to 2nd Avenue) and then (2nd Avenue to Broadway) and again across town on Broadway? What a waste!
Before the line is built, we must proposal these things:
1) A four track system
2) Possible crosstown line that connects (4,5 and 6 (metro north/directly) via Lexington/Park Avs, 2 and 3 Lenox Avenue, A, B, C, and D via St. Nicholas Avenue and possibly the 1 via Broadway).
3) Proposed station at 120th Street/2nd Avenue that will split north from 125th Street to the Bronx or Crosstown (125th Street) Manhattan.
4) Express Stops should be created After Lex/Park Southbound: 125th Lex/Park - 99th Street - Broadway 57th Street.
5) Local stops should be Broadway - St. Nicholas Avenue - Lenox Avenue - Park/Lex Avs (direct connections with metro north/4-5-6) - 120th Street - 110 Street - 99th Street - 91st Street - 84th Street -79th Street - 72nd Street - 65th Street - Lexington Avenue (connection with the B) and Broadway 57th Street.
otherwise, I deem this project as useless.
It stinks being a young train buff. I missed all the good stuff.
I thought the same thing, born in 1946. I joined the ERA young (1958), just in time to meet all the older railfans who were then scrambling around to cover trolley lines before they all passed out of existence.
Look at the bright side. Unlike 1958, when rail transit was in a steep decline, services are now expanding. You'll be seeing new things after I'm just a memory.
You might even see trains on the 2nd Avenue Subway.
I went up to the Shoreline Trolley Museum today for the Autumn in New York event. The rain stopped nice and early and it turned out to be a beautiful day. Sub-talk was well represented,besides myself there were Jeff H,Stef,Lou,Doug,Howard Fine,Mark Feinman and Mark W. There might have been others I didn't get a chance to meet.
Stef operated R-17 6688 and Jeff H ran BMT PCC 1001. Rapid transit cars in use were IRT Lo-V 5466, BRT BU Motor 1227, IND R-9 1689 and the R-17. Streetcars in service were in addition to 1001, Third Avenue Railway 629 and BRT 4573. There were numerous runs but the best was saved for last when IRT 5466 made a run followed by R-9 1689 and last but not least Bklyn PCC 1001.
It was pleasure to meet many of the fine people who post on sub-talk. There was much good conversation about all sorts of rail topics including one gentlemen (a non subtalker) who was quite knowledgeable about unused tunnels in New York City of which I'll post some info tomorrow.
It was well worth the long trip from Beacon NY and if you have a chance to go on Sunday you won't be disappointed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbird,
I'm glad you enjoyed it. I hope to meet you again. Only one minor note: I wasn't the regular operator of 6688, although I did get a crack at it (ALL SMILES NOW). The car's a great performer, especially when I'm behind the controller.
Regards,
Stef
I wish I could have been there to see it. I was invited to a wedding tomorrow and had to spend the day working. Maybe in June.
I wish I could have been there too. New York Days have coincided with Members Day weekend up at Seashore the past few years, so I have had to be there....As David said...maybe in June...
Stef: 6688 is in great shape thanks to the hard work of yourself and others, of course the fact that she is in the Redbird paint scheme might influence me a bit. (Just kidding) By checking my records I find that the last time I rode her was twelve years ago on March 3,1987 on the 42 Street Shuttle. It was nice to see an old friend after such a long time. Thanks to you and the others at Branford for making it such a nice day.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes it was a good day. Very nice meeting the people who post responses in sub talk.
Hi, Larry.
It was good to meet you, Mark Feinman, Jeff, Steve and Mark W. I rode up with Thurston and Stef. And it was great to see Lou from Brooklyn, (w/his family) and Howard Fein (sporting an in-joke Three Stooges T-shirt).
We had a great and fruitful day. Arriving early, Thurston, Stef and I assisted with the museum crew. Stef went to help on readying the R-17 (his baby) while Thurston and I ended up coming to the rescue on the H&M car which had a hole in the hole in the air-pressure line. Thurston managed to wrestle the piping free and was able to cap the end off so the car was able to proceed out of the barn.
As the day progressed, the time came for the R-9 to come out of the barn. It was a thing of beauty -- near mint condition and looking like it came out of the ACF plant only weeks ago. As it turned out, Jeff and Lou had alittle trouble with the electrical systems. I was of course near at hand taking pictures and was more than happy to lend a hand when Jeff asked me to aide in the removal of a resister-box cover on the undercarriage. Not long after, Lou and Jeff got the car in service and by midday she was running up and the down the route with no trouble.
I was just glad the weather held out since the morning hours were overcast and threatening.
Another treat was seeing the ex-Brooklyn PCC that had -- among other things -- ran over genuine SBK tracks back in the 50's.
In short, the Branford "New York City Days" event was an enjoyable day, one that I would like to see more than just a couple of weekends out of the year.
BTW, that non-SubTalker with those "lost tunnels" stories should start posting here. He had some interesting first-hand info on stations/tunnels that are pretty much forgotten and/or unknown to the public. To investigate some of what he described would be an intriguing idea. Any plans to take a look?
Doug and his R9, he even rode it on the move to the barn >G<...
I had a great time Saturday with it all. This was my second October New York Days, I wish I could make them in June (busy month at work)...
Lot of little problems that Jeff H and crew jumped on, it was a real pleasure they got the PCC running. There was even an operator from the Newark subay there (rode the R9) I wonder if he made the PCC trip.
Great Job!!
I'm glad you and Thurston had a blast, considering the R9, Lo-V, and the H & M car didn't want to cooperate on this day. Fortunately, the heroes of the day, the mechanics (Jeff and Steve) saved the day. Of course, you and Mr. Thurston assisted which made things go that much more smoothly. What a day! I couldn't complain, as I went down the line with my baby (well, it is actually Lou's long before I laid eyes on it).
The day became extra special when I took control of the car. Brake handle in hand, and put that and the reverse key into place, off I went back to the yard. Yes!!! There is a God, and I have just accomplished my lifelong dream of operating a SMEE. I just love playing with full size trains, although the HO Scale is ok to fit into your basement.
My bum knee, was probably the only thing I had to worry about. For those who don't know, I hurt my knee trying to turn the trolley pole on 6688 around with a rod that had a hook on it. I got it alright, but I went too far back and fell off the platform at the Short Beach end of the line and landed on my knee. Sunday, I rested and my knee, healed rather quickly. I'm not limping anymore.
Anyway to wrap things up, everything went well. Now it's back to work on my favorite car.
Take Care and See You Soon,
Stef
Yeah, I was wondering if you were going to make it back up on Sunday, as your limping looked pretty severe. I hope you'll make a full recovery ASAP.
By late afternoon I got a chance to run the 17. She's so smooth, even on the curves by the bridge on the way to Short Beach. I got used to the brake and power controls rather easily. But of course the Redbird is alot easier to control than the R-9 -- which was the car I REALLY would have enjoyed running except I didn't say anything until she was back in the barn. :-( (there's always next time).
Hey, Stef, maybe when you're not working on restoring the Redbird at Brandford, you can give me a hand on painting and detailing my HO scale R-22 ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
You bet! Let's get a yard of SMEE's together on an HO scale layout of the NYC transit system... Wait, can anyone do an HO miniature version of the NYCT? It would probably take up more than one room!
-Stef
I must apologize for also looking messy. I didn't really get under any subway car, but I was having a pizza party, and got dirty in the process. Hehehe.
-Stef
Ohh??
Someone told me (was it you Doug) it was a new type battery fluid for the PCC or somthing to the effect. It was pizza???
No, no. Doug was right. I wish I knew what was happening or I would have assisted the Branford Crew (if possible) on the PCC.
-Stef
Well, maybe the Franklin Shuttle in HO would fit into my apartment, but not much else :-)
On second thought, the SBK's current non-subway running rights would probably fit in my closet! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Never mind HO. You'd have to go down to Z scale if you wanted to fit the entire subway system in one room. On the flip side, Z scale speeds would approach R-10 proportions.
Actually, that was a HONEYMOONERS T-shirt, which is transit-related only in that Ralph was a bus driver. I would've worn my Mets T-shirt but it was in the wash. Turns out they didn't need my help anyway.
Yes, it was a great experience riding the old equipment and meeting up with cyber-friends again. I was impressed with how well preserved the old cars were, especially 1689. A lot of time and elbow grease must have gone into them.
I loved hearing the classic R-9 accelerating rumble and groan again. It even had delays due to power problems, just like the old days. The speed of 6688 (or as much speed as it could muster on Shore Line's right-of-way) reminded me of how fast the R-17s could take that Lex Express. I'm not of age for the other cars featured, which made riding them that much more interesting. The IRT lo-voltage had a tendency to screech a lot even on mild curves. I don't know it that's the nature of the beast, its age or the rails. Either way, it must have been ear-piercing on the South Ferry loop.
Judging from the turnout, there's a lot more of us rail fanatics that one would suspect. Here's to more fan trips before winter sets in!
I'm envious!!! Sorry I couldn't be there - Maybe next year.
However, as others were having the time of their life at Branford, those of us at BSM were enjoying a typical Sunday, until Peter Witt 6119, working as block 2501, left for a trip at 4:15.
About 4:20 the Dispatcher received a call that the car had failed to take power just north of the Shop. While a rescue car was sent to get the passengers, Ray Cannon and myself were readying car 1164 (12 Bench Open, Brill 1902) ready for a possible "Drag Job".
If anyone is wondering why we would use an open as a tow car, 1164 has a 1 1/2" steel plate frame. As it is a hand brake car, finer towing control is wanted.
The Motorman on 6119 had already tried changing the control fuse, to no avail. So, we coupled up, drained the air on the Witt, and headed to the Car House. A quick run-around at North Avenue (to get 1164 in front, pushing.) By 5:10 6119 was on the Shop track, 1164 was put away, and we prepared to go home. Ray commented "How come this stuff always happens at 4:30 on a Sunday?".
Ray commented "How come this stuff always happens at 4:30 on a
Sunday?".
Well Dan, I'm sure I can top that! At 7PM on Sunday night
the operator (who shall remain nameless because he isn't a
SubTalk poster and can't defend himself) who was putting the
R-9 back into the barn ran into a problem. The trolley downlead
from the roof to the main knife switch, which on this car
has "temporarily" run down the side of the car body for 20 years,
got snagged on the door hook. The side of the car acted like a
knife edge, pierced the insulation, and grounded out the cable.
This required A) re-insulating the cable B) climbing on to the
roof of the car to re-attach it to the pole base and C) walking
back to the substation to reset the quick-action circuit breaker.
Can't take power on a Witt? How about the rear door interlock?
Really don't know. This is one for the Shop guys to figger out. The operator related that the control switch fuse blew, so it may be one of the white metal castings that hold the contacts in the Group Switch has failed. (after 69 years, white metal gets a little brittle.) The shop does have a new model holder prepared and several are already in service.
Now that you mention it...
I remember Eddie telling me about that temporary power lead back in 1980. It was supposed to be threaded between the inner and outer body panels, or something to that effect. He even said something about putting a second trolley pole on the other car end eventually.
What were 1689's signs set to last weekend? Were the side destination signs lit up? Eddie told me everything about how the lights were disabled when the R-7s and R-9s went over to the Eastern Division, and that it was a simple matter of reinstalling a fuse and screwing in new light bulbs in the sign boxes. He had it all fixed up and working, and even showed me the key switch in the cab to change the illumination from upper to lower destination signs. Add to that, he also pointed out that the Eastern Division roller curtains did not have cutouts to permit light bulb installation, since the light bulbs were removed, whereas the original IND curtains did. I have examples of both, and that's a fact.
I know that 1689 has signs for early IND terminals which later became through stations. I've seen Jay St.-Boro Hall, as well as E/8th Ave-Houston route signs.
What were 1689's signs set to last weekend?
Front signs A / Rockaway Park and D / Kings Highway. (The guy who usually operates the D-types, TOny, *insisted" that the train be labeled a "D" and it wok quite a while for him to crank the end sign!)
Side signs - I didn't catch 'em.
--Mark
Dan, I enjoyed your post and look forward to hearing more about doings in Baltimore ! Do you have any subway or interurbans ?
Mr t__:^)
Baltimore has a subway, Light Rail and the MARC commuter rail (which also goes to D.C.).
This is Bell Boulevard
The next stop on this 7 train will be Douglaston Parkway.
And they ALL use that funny narrow guage!!!
I think Thurston was looking @ the Historical side of collecting, as Baltimore was famed (in rail circles) as the home of the famed Washington, Baltimore and Annapolis Electric Railroad (The WB&A). It died in 1935, some of the equipment went to the Baltimore & Annapolis, which continued running the (South Shore) line to Annapolis until 1950.
MARC is narrow guage? Doesn't it run with Amtrak?
Sorry for repeating the same announcement twice, I make it up to you.
This is 57 Street
The next stop on the L train will be 64 Street
This is 64 Street
The next and last stop on this L train will be 72 Street, where you will be able to transfer to the 1, 2, 3 and 9 trains.
10/17/99
MARC , Maryland Area Rail Commuter , of course uses standard gauge. If you want to get into track gauges , Baltimore used a track gauge slightly wider than Philadelphia (5' 2" Pennsylvania broad gauge). I think Baltimore holds the record , if not correct me please.
Bill Newkirk
OK, I know that Toronto also uses wide guage, what is it? (is it in even metric?). Also, are there any problems that would preclude interoprability between the Red and Orange line in Boston, or using Blue line cars on the other lines (but not Green!) or running Red and Orange cars on the Blue as far as Maverick?
This is 177 Street-Parkchester, change for Q LOCAL trains.
The next stop on this Q EXPRESS train will be Pelham Bay Park.
Toronto's streetcars run on 4'10 7/8" gauge track. Baltimore used a gauge of 5'4 1/2".
It was a GREAT day!!!! I love riding the 96 year old 1227. It was nice to meet all SubTalkers who were there. For those who didn't meet me, I was the one with the orange saftey vest. I got some handle time on the R-17 and R-9. The best part of the day was to run Brooklyn PCC 1001. Next year I'm taking operator classes up there.........Mark W.
(Next meet- Croton open house (Saturday) Who is going????)
I am still smiling from the fun I had WORKING on the RxR for about 12 hours Saturday. As Doug said, we had to get dirty early to get H & M 503 moved out so Jeff & Steve K could get the rest of the NYC fleet out of the barns. I actually got in her as well as under her this weekend :-) After the equip. was out, I became a customer for a while. I enjoyed the rides & conversations with a dozen or so SubTalkers. Later MOW Bill was moving the Crane car W-3 by some ties. Doug & I were happy to help as he tied up the RxR for a short while moving 9, 13 & 14 foot ties on & off W-3 so he could do some replacements on Sunday.
PCC had a little problem. One of the regulars was using a turkey baster to take clear liquid out of an old milk jug & transfer it to the battery. A boy was watching this most intensely. I asked the crew member "Are you replacing the Hydrogen Hydroxide ?". He replyed right away "why yes !". With puzzeled looked the boy thought for a moment, then remembered some of his schooling & said "Isn't that water ?". The crew member promply raised the turkey baster & squirted some into his mouth, then turned & smiled at both of us.
Later that afternoon I treated some customers a little better. A group was warndering around in the back of the barns & wanted to enter, but saw a chain warning them to keep out. I lowered the chain & gave them a impromptu tour. I cautioned them to stay off the greasy ties & watch out for sharp edges & rusty items. I saw a small boy coming out of a car & scolded him for going in the car, then I saw his father & new member Mark Feinman, "Oh Hi Mark" I said. They asked a lot of questions which I couldn't answer. I appologized for this at the end, but they seemed very appreciated for being able to get inside the barn.
I didn't get any "pull time" this week-end even though I hung around after hours. I don't mind because I know I'll get another chance at it & was happy to watch those new members and visitors who did.
BTW, there was three guys in from Ill. shopping for a slightly used Redbird (they had already been to Coney Island about it). Also I think this guy's name was Bill, got some time in the PCC seat. He said he was from the Newark City Subway shop.
At the very end of the day I was helping Jeff H & Steve K get the PCC backed into the barn in the dark & just missed the last R-17 ride with Lou S as the pilot. That must have been a real TRIP rolling along through the night !
P.S. I counted eleven cars I rode or boarded this weekend with only the W-3 Crane being a out-of-towner (of course I rode the W-3 !).
Mr t__:^)
Later that afternoon I treated some customers a little better. A group was warndering around in the back of the barns & wanted to enter, but saw a chain warning them to keep out. I lowered the chain & gave them a impromptu tour. I cautioned them to stay off the greasy ties & watch out for sharp edges & rusty items. I saw a small boy coming out of a car & scolded him for going in the car, then I saw his father Mark Feinman, "Oh Hi Mark" I said. They asked a lot of questions which I couldn't answer. I appologized for this at the end, but they seemed very appreciated for being able to get inside the barn.
You shoulda seen the look on their faces when I stepped off that car after Matthew got off! Them railfans, they never listen :) :)
--Mark
So, Larry, you're from Beacon, eh? How's the bridge? I haven't been across it since heading west for Colorado 19 years ago. At the time, it was being twin-spanned.
Glad to hear 1689 was looking and running great. How were its doors? Maybe someday the New York Days will take place when I'm in the neighborhood.
Steve: Actually I'm from NYC but we moved to Beacon about twelve years ago. I rode the trains to NY for ten years when I worked at Grand Central Terminal. The bridges are okay. The original north bridge was closed and rebuilt after the south one was openned. Today the north span has three lanes and is used by westbound traffic while the south span has four lanes plus a sidewalk and is used by eastbound traffic.Unfortunately the bridge manages to bypass both its namesake cities,Newburgh and Beacon, something the ferry never did.
1689 looked in very good condition though I didn't notice the doors specifically. She is very big though for a trolley museum. The Branford folks can correct me but I thing the only bigger cars in the collection are the AB and the ME-1.
I only regret not being able to ride the High-V but she was sidelined due to a mechanical problem.
Do you plan on being in NY anytime soon? If so please e-mail me.
Larry,Redbirdr33
R-9 1689 is the biggest that comes out to play right now, althought H&M 503 comes close. Steve you were right there in our thoughts as R-9 went down the line (literally).
Mr t__:^)
Anyone know if the subway cars operate on regular days, besides the special weekends? I went in August (the 27th according to my EZ Pass statement) and although I thoroughly enjoyed the visit I never got to see the R9 and some of the other subway cars as they were locked in their barns. I was able to see the R17 and of course the 2 outside cars, the Standard and the SIRT next to it. (I think it was a SIRT) But I really wanted to ride 1689 and couldn't make it up this weekend.
The Subway cars don't come out on regular basis, one reason is that their are only a handfull of qualified operators.
However, if you want to see a particular car all you have to do is ask. What probally will happen is that once your tour group gets back on the next trolley the Conductor working the yard will walk you over to the barn & open it for you. If he/she doesn't know where the car is he/she might have to find out first.
Let me suggest that you announce your intention here or directly to WWW.BERA.ORG. Most weekends there are extra staff getting dirty who I'm sure wouldn't mind taking a break to help you.
Mr t, a BERA member and occasional helper.
Thank You!!
Other big guys include BMT standard 2775, SIRT 388, and North Shore interurban 709.
1689's doors were functional back in 1980, but one leaf was sticking at one of the car ends. Eddie knew what the problem was. I was opening and closing them to my heart's content that day while Eddie was busy with something or other in the car. He had the fans on, too.
I will be in the city during the week of Oct. 25 and am planning to attend the Stillwell Ave. terminal tour on the 27th.
It's getting closer ...
GO YANKEES!
Go Mets
The Mets have a long way to go. Eventhough any team can beat another team anytime by virtue of great defense, clutch hitting, good pitching, and a little luck, the Mets have proven time and time again they can't beat the Braves. Are the Mets ready to turn the tide now? I would love to see a subway series, I don't think it will happen in 1999. Sorry guys, but the Braves can get their brooms ready for a sweep.
IT PAYBACK TIME!!!! LETS GO METS & THEY GOING ALL THE WAY.
PEACE OUT
MEANEY
You sound like a Yankee fan to me! If the Braves should defeat the Mets, I'll go with the Braves to win it all, especially if they play the Yankees. I can see it now, John Rocker strikes out Jeter, Williams,and O'neil to win game four and the championship in that dump in the Bronx! This is all subject to N.Y defeating Cleveland(presumably other ALCS team). Cleveland will be no easy task. I think Yankee fans have forgotten they have another round to play before the World Series.
I've got my tomahawk at the ready ... Go Braves!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Go Yankees, the tomahawk will be used by the Yanks to get rid of all their attackers. I smell a 25th World Series victory coming to NY Yanks.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx a NY Yankee fan since 1957.
Ooo..you must remember taking a Low-V to the games..(or R units...)(TRYING to get this back on topic!!)
Well Mets / Braves would be MARTA / NYCTA???
Hate to tell you this, but Braves fans dont use MARTA to get to games...The n/s line actually VEERS AWAY from where Turner Field is (and Atlanta-Fulton Co was...), The best a non-driver can do is take a shuttle from the Five Points station downtown..about an extra 10-15 minutes...As has been said here before, Atlanta has tried to be NYC,but has ended up more like LA...
Lou from Middletown NY, yes i do remember the Low-V to Yankee Stadium. I am 42 years old going on 43 in November. I took the D or C train to 161st. I remember the overhead fans, wicker seats and the conductor having to stand up between the cars in all kind of weather. I think they were the R-100's if i am not mistaken.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
I think you mean R-9s. I remember them on the D line back as far as the early 60s.
True. But the Lo-Vs also had external door controls. Not to mention metal plates for route and destinations while the R-1/9s had cloth roller curtains as well as signs on the bulkheads, something I noticed right away when the subway was still new to me.
We are one step closer to a Subway Series, which IMHO would be terrific (with a nod to Tom Seaver). As for the Mets, keep in mind that in 1988, they took 10 out of 11 from the Dodgers during the regular season, then blew it in the playoffs. Mike Soscia's (sp) ninth-inning home run off Doc Gooden in Game 4 was the turning point, as the Mets would have taken a 3-1 NLCS lead had they won that game. Let's hope they can do to the Braves what the Dodgers did to them 11 years ago. Wouldn't it be something - the Met Miracle revisited 30 years later. Deja vu all over again.
yeh but they are down2-0
To which I say, until next April, we're still the champions of college basketball!
The Diamondbacks totally dominated the Mets during this season, yet look what happened in the post-season. So yes, they can beat the Braves.
So right Chris..Im a YANKEE fan, and even I know that, as the Daily News said this morning: "goofy things happen in Shea this time of year... Just ask Earl Weaver or Pete Rose..or Bill Buckner.....
Or Tony Womack ...
All Pete Rose did was get into a fight with Bud Harrelson in the 1973 NLCS. I remember thinking at the time, hey Rose, what's the idea, going after Harrelson? Go pick on someone your own size! Then he nearly got hit with a whiskey bottle out in left field. That's something I would never condone.
The Mets in seven. The Braves have an invincible aura about them--until October comes and they play in the NLCS and the World Series. For all the great Brave teams, they have won only one World Series since 1991.
The Mets are coming off a very emotional series with yet another incredible comeback (the Mets do this once a decade, don't they?) This could be the Mets' year.
www.forgotten-ny.com
I caught the end of a story on ABC a couple of days ago about the MTA having some sort of test (TO, conductor, not sure) which had a filing deadline at the end of this month for a January test. Anyone have more information on this?
There is an open competive test for train operator. I imagine you can get info in the lobby at 370 Jay St., or pick up "The Chief", the Civil Service Newspaper with the red printed name on the top at you local newsstand. They should have the information you are looking for,
10/10/99
This was discussed on an earlier post,but since the Croton Harmon open house is this Saturday,the 16th I would like to hear from anyone who parked at the station lot at last years open house. If I excercise the option to travel by car,where would I park? There is permit parking areas reserved for commuters and they do give tickets on weekends. Some spaces will be sacrificed for shuttle buses too. Is there any parking in this lot or nearby if you aren't a resident with a permit?
Bill Newkirk
You are able to park in a regular parking spot in the lot. Most, if not all rules are suspended for the event. If questionable, there are plenty of people in charge to ask. Three years ago, I was able to drive over the bridge, and park in the employees parking lot. Two years ago, they made us take the shuttle bus, & would you believe the driver got lost and drove us into Croton Point Park. A 5 minute ride, turned into 20 minutes.Last year, there was not an open house.
Everyone have a good time & enjoy.
I called Metro-North the other week (on the thursday nkight of Floyd at 3am no less!!). They *promise* that there's an open house this year, ad that last year was just a fluke because of the GCT opening thing..
There web site has the info on the open house saturday. They say to park at the Croton-Harmon Train Station parking lot with free shuttle buses to the shops. I'll be on the 8:54a (8813) Express to Croton.
See:
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/mnr/html/getaways.htm#It's Back- Harmon Shop
Or if no one tells:
It's Baaaaack... The Harmon Shop Open House Saturday, October 16
(10am to 3PM)
else can you tour our largest repair facility, see our latest equipment, sit in the cab of a Genesis locomotive, and enjoy a breathtaking fall foliage ride up the Hudson Valley--all for free! You'll also be able to purchase food and drink (all those free activities tend to make you hungry).
Getting to the shop is easy--take Metro-North's Hudson Line to Croton-Harmon Station, and follow the signs to the free shuttle buses. Call (800) METRO-INFO for train times; in New York City, call (212) 532-4900.
If you are planning on driving--you can park at the station for free--follow these directions:
From New York City, take the New York State Thruway to Exit 9, Tarrytown. Go left onto Route 119 for about one-fifth of a mile. Turn right onto Route 9 and continue North for 14 miles. After crossing the Croton River Bridge, take the first exit, which is Croton Point Avenue. Follow signs to the parking lot.
From Stamford and White Plains, take Interstate 287 to the New York State Thruway entrance at Elmsford, and follow the directions above.
See you there for a great day of family fun.
What's new at the MVM WORLD?
This will be the LAST update of the site on Crosswinds, it will move to Earthlink. Crosswinds sucks.
Updated MVM tutorial, part of the new FEATURES section.
MRM description added to the features section.
Two new stations added to the bottom of the list, I'm still looking for date data for the last group.
Please visit today.
Updates have been made and therefore, MVM World has moved to: http://home.earthlink.net/~onlyjoex. Now we have some new data and the FIRST non subway MVMs. Also, I have combined all the route data from the two SI Ferry stations and the 5 Dyre Line stations into one cell. Check it out and tell me what you think.
What is your favorite post of all time on SubTalk? My three favorites are:
3. What route will get the R142?
2. Future Manhattan Bridge closure diversions..........
1. Future routing for the 63St tunnel connector.........
3TM
My favorite post are all the one's that relate to the subway and buses only.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
My favorite is a very old one:Should the city buy out the IRT & BMT and merge them with its own IND lines?
Was that before or after the posts debating should the Canarsie line be a subway or el between Montrose and Broadway-East NY??
It was a little bit after the thread on the IRT's pruchase of the Manhattan Elevated Railway's lines.
Gee, it's kind of hard to choose between them. I know I'm going to be labeled as conceited ( as well as a much deserved label of being crazy ) , but I think any one of my posts over the last 2 months rank pretty high in my mind.
[What is your favorite post of all time on SubTalk? My three favorites are:
3. What route will get the R142?
2. Future Manhattan Bridge closure diversions..........
1. Future routing for the 63St tunnel connector.........]
Well, I know that few people will agree with me, but I liked "Racist Train Operator." It provoked a great deal of interesting discussion.
But this is a transit forum...
I also like the posts that deal with the less technical and more "experiences of the subway."
And I LOVE the ones from transit workers that describe their job. I envy them!
BWB
I liked the long list of rail transit lines and extensions opened in the 1990s (none here), and the long list of cities with rail connections between their airports and their central business districts. Though a bunch of railfans cannot be considered an "authority," I have used this information in memos and reports. Everyone should just keep hammering at this.
TUNNEL TO STATEN ISLAND, just south of Whitehall street, there are two tubes that are filled in. This HAS TO BE where they started to build the tunnel to Staten Island!!! HAS TO HAS TO HAS TO!! WawAWAWAWAAwawa
NO! No tunnel from Manhattan to Staten Island was ever seriously proposed.
I am no historian. And I suppose the truth of your statement depends on what you mean by "seriously".
But I remember the cut-out that Lou mentioned. And I was under the impression that the resemblance of the Staten Island cars to the Standards was in some way related to the possibility of a connection between the two.
The only serious proposal, AFAIK, was for the connection between Brooklyn and Staten Island. The cars were similar, yes, but IIRC they were incompatible (different braking, etc.) so the similarity wasn't for that reason.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would it be pure speculation that the reason that the SIRT cars were 'similar' to the Standards, is because the Standards were the State of the Art of rapid transit at that time? Does anyone know who designed the SIRT cars? Stillwell perhaps? That could also explain it too....
There was serious intent to link SIRT with the BMT in Brooklyn, which is why SIRT purchased cars similar to the AB standards. It wasn't until a car shortage in the early 50s where some SIRT equipment was transfered to the BMT that it was realized that they were incompatible with the ABs.
--Mark
In no particular order, they would have to include:
Wayne/Mr. Slant R-40's account of his adventure on an R-6/R-7 F train on a broiling hot day in September 1973. I still say you had to be there.
Collisions involving BMT standards. Not just with other cars, but stations as well. In nearly every case, they came away with nothing more than a few scrapes and bruises. Case in point: the photo of 2778 in Subway Cars of the BMT.
Subway car drag races and speculation as to which car would win.
There was another one which at least deserves honorable mention:
The Subway menu with entrees named after different cars.
In the NY Post, Sunday October 10, page 8, are 2 articles. Article 1 is a report on how a powerful new high-tech machines could drill a Second Ave. tunnel faster and with fewer disruptions to the East Side neighborhoods than equipment used in preliminary digging during the 1970's, construction experts say.
Article 2 is about East Side merchants fear they''ll get the shaft.
After the good people of SubTalk read the 2 articles, your most excellent thoughts are welcome, as always.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
The Post online edition has this article. The URL was corrupt this weekend, but it now links correctly.
http://www.nypost.com/101099/news/9874.htm
The London UndergrounD has used this method successfully for years; the only impact on the neighborhoods is where the access shafts are sited and at the areas with station construction/connections. Minimal other impact along the route.
The added cost of deep boring has to be balanced with the cost of shoring up the street and utilities during construction, plus the untold losses the neighorhood and its businesses would suffer during construction (which in NYC seems to take *years* - lots of them)!
And today the same reporter said what he should have said yesterday: the whole line won't be built by Tunnel Boring Machine because it can't be! Station areas can't be bored by TBM; they have to be dug. Not only that, but only certain kinds of materials can be bored by TBM; soft stuff like clay and dirt can't, if I remember right.
David
I remember when the Red Line up Connecticut Ave. was being built back in the late 70s and early 80s. They used tunnel boring, so the street was untouched in some areas, but where the UDC, Cleveland Park and Woodley Road stations were to be located, it was open cut with wooden planks, including the parking area of a strip mall at Clevland Park.
Plus a deep bore tunnel, if extended below 63rd St., would have to work around the E/F and 7 tunnels at 53rd and 42nd Sts, or move closer to the surface.
In those instances, a 2nd Ave. tunnel could probably fit above the 53rd St. and Steinway tunnels, since they're both fairly deep at that point. The 60th St. tunnel may be another issue, depending on the relative depth of the 63rd St. tunnel.
Yup, these boring machines don't do well in loose, sandy soil.
Guess what the soil conditions are south of 42 street
Saw quite an unusual sight on Saturday Oct 9 - northbound B trains were routed onto the N express track from Coney Island to 59th/4th Ave. So the trains ran expresss from C.I. to 59th. When I was taking photos at New Utrecht Ave. on the N, it was quite surprising to see a B rush through on the express track.
Are you going to put the pictures up online?
Yes, that is unusual -- usually it's the other way around -- the N running on the B/West End!
Get those B trains off my line.
Unless, of course, they're running slant R-40s. Now, THAT'S an express run! If they're R-68s, I agree with you.
You mean get them off MY line-----ok, get them off our line.
10/10/99
Is this the last weekend of this G.O. or is it still in effect? I haven't found time to ride or photograph this.
Bill Newkirk
Bill. I was on the N today. There was a service notice indicating that N's would run express 59th to Coney Island during the week during the daytime in one direction and during the nighttime in the other direction. This seemed to be in effect from 10-11 to I think 10-14. But it was only during the week.
Which means I'm going to miss out on this golden opportunity.
Ooohhhhhhh noooooooooo....
Since I'm in California, I'll miss out on it too, but at least I know my Sea Beach is running express again, albeit only at certain times. It's a start.
Too bad the B's being serviced with R-68s. It would make a great ride with an R-40 slant.
--Mark
Not with the new signalling system, which limits the speed of any train running on the rehabbed SeaBeach express track.
10/12/99
I was on the rehabbed and resignaled Sea Beach Exp. tracks yesterday. The (N) ran from Stillwell Ave to 59th St. EXPRESS due to "track work". The running time from 86th St. to 8th ave. was 9 minutes. I don't know how a LOCAL would have ran , I've never clocked one.
Bill Newkirk
Going express from 59th to CI took me 16 minutes, so perhaps going to Manhattan is faster. It would avoid having to switch tracks just north of Kings Hwy.
Then again, both trips were on an R68 for me, which I should have factored in.
BTW, it takes 20 minutes to get to CI from 59th going local.
10/12/99
The 9 minutes I timed this train was 86th St to 8th Ave. I never factored in 8th Ave to 59th St section where it slows down. The ride was provided by R-40 slants and we weren't flying like on the Brighton Express tracks. Could the R-68's be that slow? There weren't any speed restrictions such as track work zones.
Bill Newkirk
I don't know, but when I rode it to CI it slowed considerably at New Utrecht and the again at the switch north of Kings Highway. We never really "flew" at great speed, except between 18th Ave and Bay Pkwy.
The Sea Beach line is 4 1/2 miles long, so if it takes 9 minutes to traverse it, that works out to an average speed of 30 mph. Par for the R-68s.
10/13/99
Steve B.
Yeah,that's kinda like how fast it was going. There were no stops also. I wonder how the Sunny Summer Sunday Specials fared on travel time. The side signs on the D-Types for this service was "Coney Island Express".
Bill Newkirk
Friday was one of those days. We did have that G.O where all trains run Local from E 177 Parkchester to 3 Ave because of the Switch at Parkchester out of Service. Well before I even left Pelham around 7:50 AM a Put In from Westchester Yard to Parkchester went Brakes In Emergency entering Castle Hill. So every one had to stop and stay from Pelham down to Castle Hill. The only movement was trains from Pelham went down the Middle track from Pelham Bay to Hunts Point. But I was the first to go Local from Pelham on the 8:10 Because the train was on the Move and we could go reguler. The train was order to stay Out of Service intil 125 Street. The train went B.I.E again entering Sound View Ave. So I was forced to a stop at Middletown Road. Then after 10 Minutes a TSS made it to that train. It continued to Hunts Point then turned back to go to the Yard. Now ofcause I'm crowling all the way down Behind my leader. Well that train had a Hand Brake Indication at Sound View. So it was another 5 Minute delay. His train was a R62A. Well he found No hand Brake activated and train was moving freely. So I didn't even see a green Signal intil Brooklyn Bridge on the Uptown Side. So that was the AM Rush Hour for the No.6 Line.
Then the 12:34 Dyre to Bowling Green had a brake Pipe Rupture entering Pelham Parkway. So they did turn some Northbound No.5 trains at E 180 to make up of the service. But Grand Central said over the line speakers of NO No.5 Service. They must of had a hard time turning trains since it was the last trip for Many train crews on the No.5 Line.
Then around 6PM a Brooklyn Bound No.2 Train went B.I.E Leaving 110 Street. So No.2 trains went down Lex. Northbound No.3 trains were turned back south at 96 Street.
Then ofcause the story of the day a Teen shot on the face for a gold chain on a southbound No.2 Train at 3 Ave.
Here is the Sunday NY Times Online article on Friday night's shooting on the No. 2:
http://www.nytimes.com/yr/mo/day/news/national/regional/ny-subway-killing.html
I read the article and have several comments. The last car of a subway train is usually the least safe, but why weren't the cops there? If the cops were there they might have stopped the robbers and possibly saved the teen's life.
In reality, cops on trains should always ride in the rear cars of the train since this is usually where most crimes happen, since the T.O. and conductor usually are in the front and middle cars, which are more crowded.
I never ride behind the middle cars, and usually I prefer to ride in the front of the train, usally the front car (yeah, to railfan) but also because this is a safer part of the train.
TV News could've given alot more coverage to the story, because we don't want people to forget about subway crime, or it will rise once again like in the 70s and 80s.
hey is there anyone who hops freights or knows anything about hopping freights or is a writer who hops freights, later......
[hey is there anyone who hops freights or knows anything about hopping freights or is a writer who hops freights, later......]
It's a terrific idea .... if, that is, you have a desire to end up in jail or dead.
A great assesment Hopping a train is not a good idea unless you have a death wish.
I don't know anyone who does this, although here in the U.S. there is a long tradition of nomadic vagrants and transient-types who have traveled around the country riding boxcars. Years ago there was a more romantic, almost Jack Keuroac (sp?) like attraction of "riding the rails" and seeing the country via freight-car hopping.
However I do not recommend this for anyone today as there are too many violent and criminal minded vagrant gangs that criss-cross the country robbing, swindling and in some cases killing people they encounter. I believe a fairly recent 20/20 or Dateline news show did a big story on just this very topic.
BTW, if you are found by a train crew to be "freeloading" on their turf you can expect to face serious transpassing charges.
My advice: DON'T DO IT.
Doug aka BMTman
Railroads have their own Police Forces that enforce the LAWS, what you suggest is not only dangerous and illegal it gives real railfans a bad name.
If those arguments don't convince you, then check out WWW.deadtrainbums.com
Maybe that will convince you.
> WWW.deadtrainbums.com
Now I know there really IS a web site for everything.
Actually, it's a site that purports to support the elimination of laws passed about "hopping trains". It also has somewhat inflamitory statements in an almost unreadable font on the home page and requires a username/password to go any farther.
Seems like a complete waste of time.
Well, don't be so surprised. An issue like the right to "freight hopping" might seem trivial and silly to urban Eastcoasters (like most of us here) but I bet things like that are taken more seriously out west -- particularly the Pacific Northwest. The sticks and the boonies get more of that lifestyle than the Northeast.
Doug aka BMTman
[An issue like the right to "freight hopping" might seem trivial and silly to urban Eastcoasters (like most of us here) but I bet things like that are taken more seriously out west -- particularly the Pacific Northwest. The sticks and the boonies get more of that lifestyle than the Northeast.]
Freight hopping may be more accepted in other parts of the country, but it's still illegal and dangerous.
Was freight hopping a popular (relatively, of course) thing during the depression?
This is Utica Avenue, transfer to the 3
The next stop on this 4 will be Empire Boulevard.
Common, yes - popular, no. There were three main categories of people who hopped trains back then - the occasional rider, who was using the train to travel to a specific destination but who had no funds to pay for a ticket; the hobo, who espoused a nomadic lifestyle and lived in the hobo jungles but was more than willing to work in order to pay for food and clothing; and the "bum", who was simply "bumming around" from place to place, stopping only long enough to mooch a meal. This latter category included both those too lazy to work and those who kept to the road to avoid arrest for crimes committed in other places, and who often would commit crimes not only in the towns where they stopped but against other tramps as well. ("Tramp" is a generic term that includes at least "hobo" and "bum" under its umbrella, if not all three categories. "Knight of the road", another term you may also have seen, is specifically a hobo.) The most notorious of the bums were known to the 'bo community and when they were spotted even the hoboes, who normally avoided the RR police at all costs, would approach the officers and let them know that a criminal was in the area. The officers, to their credit, often did recognize the distinction between the hoboes and the thugs and would stop by the hobo jungle to warn the hoboes when one of the thugs had been seen in the area.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hi there; Is there a G.O. out already concerning this service interruption? If so, please list details.
This is 2 weeks away. Where did you get this info from? GO's usually do not come out 2 weeks in advance of a project. Most GO's come out to the field only a few days before the start of it.
This bit of info was in last Sunday's Daily News (10/10),on the Traffic and Transit Page. Also, it would seem to follow the pattern of single tracking currently in effect.
10/10/99
Recently the "Lenox Invert" project closed one station and created unusual reroutings on the IRT subway in upper Manhattan. A few years ago another IRT subway in Brooklyn (the Nostrand Avenue line) had some work to correct another water type problem in the subway.
The question is: Are these two water problems the same or different?
Bill Newkirk
There is a high water table at Lenox Ave and the original construction was faulty. It may be poor design or a lack of technology at the time. One complaint with the IRT's original lines was that they were too hot.
On the Dual Contract lines, the engineers felt the the tunnels might be cooler if they weren't heavily waterproofed. So now we have lines that are hot and wet.
I believe that official NYCT info stated that a State Office Building (Adam Clayton Powell State Office Building?) which changed an underground stream caused the problem
Years ago (mid 80's) when I was assigned to the 73rd Pct (Hopkinson & ENY Av) we used to take the IRT back from traffic court at Livingston & Flatbush. We would get on at Nevins and either get off at Utica and take the Pitkin Av Bus to Hopkinson Av or get off at Rockaway Av and take the Rockaway Av Bus to ENY Av. One day I was returning with 1 other guy. Getting on at Nevins I suggested we go 1 stop to Atlantic and take the LIRR to ENY. He thought I was crazy and said he was staying on the subway. So I bet him (a dinner) that I would beat him taking the LIRR-a dumb bet since I didn't have a schedule. I got off and discovered to my dismay that the next train that stopped at ENY was in a half hour but there was a non-stop to Jamaica in 5 min. Imagining my friend was under Eastern Pkway already (and how do I explain to the desk officer that we both clocked outter court at the same time and I'm much later) I ran to the front of the non-stop and asked the engineer if he could stop at ENY. He said I have to ask the conductor. I asked the conductor and after listening about all the tickets he's got for doing nothing wrong he agreed and told the engineer. I stood in the 1rst car next to the cab and when we reached ENY he stopped right at the beginning of the platform so only the first door was out of the tunnel. He let me out and I waited 10 minutes for the ENY Av Bus. (I could have walked, it wasn't far) I was wondering where I should take him for dinner, hoping he didn't suggest Peter Luger's. Imagine my suprise when I walked into the station house and found out I was first!!! Seems there was a long delay on the train before Utica!!! The only down part is I still haven't gotten my dinner yet, almost 15 years later!!!
Good story Jeff!
Doug aka BMTman
Did you tell him you cheated?
If you are ever wondering why your train is late, it just may be because of people like this. I belive it was Thursday night. I'm sure it was the E-Line. A female customer demanded medical assistance due to an injury suffered on the 'E' train. Oh by the way, the alleged injury was a mosquito bite.
I didn't realize that the Encephalitis virus worked that fast. Were you there? What was the response to her request?
I seem to remember a thing or two that when a jet planed laned in some foreign country they sprayed the cabin with incecticde. I guess from no on we'll have to spray any subway car then went into Queens...
...expect the lawsuit against the MTA for not controlling mosquitoes any day now.
You wouldn't think a mosquito could survive in the environment that is the subway. However, insects have been known to adapt...
Makes you wonder if that person had though of using repellant.
It is true.... I heard it come over the "6 wire" The TA & EMS dispatchers were laughing over it.
OH.....I forgot to mention that she claimed it happened during the AM rush.......SHE REPORTED IT AT 7:30PM!!!!!!!!!
10/11/99
Disrupt service because a passenger claimed of being bitten by a mosquito!! HAH!! If this was the old days service would not have been disrupted and a swift application of shoe her posterior would have taken care of the situation. However,that would be a violent way of solving things by todays standards. Just shows how stupid our society and Transit Authority has become. Next time in the middle of the rush hour,I'll disrupt service claiming a fellow passenger broke wind and caused me to have sharp chest pains!! With a little luck the news media will videotape me being removed on a stretcher and I'll make the 10 o'clock news. Boy will my friends be impressed !!
Hey,when in Rome do as Romans do !!! That's our society now !!
Bill Newkirk
I wonder if anyone lodged a complaint on that train Wayne was on in Sept. of 1973 when that guy ralphed. Probably not.
You are correct. What i thought was a misprint was actually true. The report # would have indicated a late PM incident but the train was the 7:13 E.
I know that part of the long term MTA plan is to Automate the entire subway system and that they've already started that on the Broadway line. But since they've basically rebuilt the Franklin Shuttle, did the MTA think enough to automate that line?
I don't know how you "know" this, since it isn't true. What's been done on the Broadway Line (and which Broadway Line -- BMT Manhattan, BMT Brooklyn, or IRT) that would lead you to make such a statement? If you're talking about CBTC (Communications-Based Train Control), a Train Operator will still be present, and maybe a Conductor, too, at least on full-length trains -- and it'll be on the Canarsie Line first.
To answer your question, though, no...when the Franklin Shuttle reopens on Wednesday, it will run the way it did just before it was closed: Two-car R-68s with OPTO (One-Person Train Operation).
David
[I know that part of the long term MTA plan is to Automate the entire subway system and that they've already started that on the Broadway line. But since they've basically rebuilt the Franklin Shuttle, did the MTA think enough to automate that line?]
The 2nd Ave Subway in one of its pervious conceptions was supposed to be automated, I THINK. I know of no plans to automate the subway. Franklin Ave Shuttle will be OPTO with a HUMAN...
The L lines scheduled to be automated when the R143's arrive.
Sort of...when CBTC is in place, there will still be a Train Operator. The equipment is designed for full automation, but it won't be used that way.
David
[The L lines scheduled to be automated when the R143's arrive.]
Yeah, I understand the T/O will be basically "babysitting" the automated equipment (besides opening and closing doors).
The Canarsie Line first has to be "straightened out" before this CBTC can be instituted whether or not the R-143s are ready. That is why all the work over at Atlantic Ave. is underway. Right now track P2 swerves apart from P1 over by Sutter Ave. going north (to accomodate the old Fulton El). It ends up running along Snediker. The TA is making plans to eliminate most of the steel structure to realign P2 over Van Sinderin so it runs parallel to P1 to match the rest of the line from 8th Avenue to Rockway Parkway.
Doug aka BMTman
CBTC is not automation. ATO is automation. They can be used in tandem (such as the MUNI Metro subway).
As I understand it, NYCT's implementation of CBTC is to replace the antiquated technology of the existing fixed block/wayside system with a moving block system whose aspects are transmitted to the trains via radio. Motormen will still run the trains, responding to the signals' aspects as displayed in the cab.
As you ride the D,B, or Q train over the Manhattan Bridge toward Manhattan when you get on the Manhattan Side on the right side of the train (if you were facing West)one of the first few buildings you see appears to be a sweatshop if you peer into the windows. Does anyone know what I'm talking about? Has anyone seen this place? Can anyone confirm that it is indeed a sweatshop?
When the system is automated, will the station announcements be automated as well? Will the MTA (or the Transit Union) require less workers to be on a train at a given time?
As noted by me in a posting earlier this evening, the system is NOT being automated. That said, the R-110A and R-110B test trains were delivered with automated announcement systems, and the R-142/142A (IRT) and R-143 (BMT-IND) trains now on order will also have this feature.
David
[When the system is automated, will the station announcements be automated as well? Will the MTA (or the Transit Union) require less workers to be on a train at a given time?]
I was riding the D train today, the one that got into Atlantic Ave around 6:21 PM and the Transit Worker who announces stations was excellent. I think the guy was new because I didn't recognize his voice or his announcing style but he named correctly which trains you could transfer to at each station - what those trains destinations were, he notified customers that for the next few weekends there'd be a lot of track work and suggested that the customers read the white posters, he reminded customers of the rules regarding bicycles on the train, and other info. Anybody know this guy? He should train the other station announcers.
There has been some discussion here about the fate of the 110s. I saw a train of them in the White Plains Road yard while doing field surveys in the Bronx.
How does the 7th Ave station in Manhattan work? I took the E train from Queens and then transferred to the D train heading Downtown at 7th Ave. I was suprised to find that this transfer was Across The Platform and that even though both trains were heading downtown they pull into the station in opposite directions. How does this work?
It works very well :-)
Seriously, D trains headed "downtown" are coming from Columbus Circle, which is on Eighth Avenue. The trains turn left under W. 53rd Street, stop at Seventh Avenue, then turn right under Sixth Avenue. D trains headed "downtown" are coming from Queens. They run under W. 53rd Street and stop at Lexington Avenue, Fifth Avenue, and Seventh Avenue, then turn left under Eighth Avenue. Thus, D and E trains cross each other along W. 53rd Street, then parallel each other as they go south. Note that there is no crossover at Seventh Avenue that would allow D and E trains to switch with each other.
David
[How does the 7th Ave station in Manhattan work? I took the E train from Queens and then transferred to the D train heading Downtown at 7th Ave. I was suprised to find that this transfer was Across The Platform and that even though both trains were heading downtown they pull into the station in opposite directions. How does this work?]
It works the same as any other train station: the trains go on those long shiny metal things -- they call them "rails" -- and the passengers stand on the platforms until the trains arive.
Sorry. Couldn't resist.
Actually, there are two separate lines that run through the station: one runs from 6th avenue and 47th st. to CPW and CPS and the other runs from 50th st. and 8th ave. to the 53rd st. tunnel under the East River.
Instead of having a single platform for each line, the station is set up with both downtown tracks on one platform and the Queens- and Bronx-bound tracks on the other platform. Makes for easier transfers unless you forgot something at home and want to go back the way you came or you're trying to go from Queens to the Bronx or from the Bronx to Queens.
Something to do with the N/R and 1/2/3/9 above?
Something to do with the N/R and 1/2/3/9 above? Or just an expensive idea?
Well, the IND lines pass beneath the IRT and BMT, so the 7th Ave. station is fairly deep. That area is a prime example of the flying junctions which adorn the IND lines. It means fewer delays where routes converge and diverge. Although it's difficult to picture, at the western end of the 7th Ave. station, there are four track levels at the point where the B/D and E tracks go their separate ways. A similar arrangement exists north of 47-50th Sts. on the 6th Ave. line, and yet another at Smith and Schermerhorn Sts. in Brooklyn. Had the IND Phase 2 lines been built, it's safe to assume there would have been additional flying junctions.
I found a new promotional MetroCard at Columbus Circle today. It is a green Conseco Financial card that reads "Playing your high school oboe in the subway is one way yo pay for renovations. May we suggest another?" It has a 12/31/00 expiration date
Conseco is a big insurance, investment, and lending company. They have sponsored one of AJ Foyt's Indy Racing League cars and will sponsor his new Nascar team next year. They also bought the naming rights to the new basketball arena in Indianapolis opening this month.
There is also another Millennial card available: 15th Century.
Marc, I saw Mark W. this weekend (at Shoreline) & he said there are two of them, one is an error. He didn't have any extras on him :-(
Mr t
I had to go up to San Francisco the past few days, and on the way back, passed the location where I found a pair of R-27/30 cars a few months ago. Now there are four additional carbodies on that property, though these are all in the red/silver paint jobs. One of the cars is actually broken in two, about 2/3 of the way from end to end, and the split is up in the air.
I have tried to get closer to these cars (than across the Los Angeles River while driving on I-5) but it is virtually impossible. They are on private property -- an independent movie/t.v. studio. I know of no way to get identification as to which car numbers these actually were.
I'd feel safe to assume that the four additional red/silver R-27/30's were ones that were out here for Sony Pictures' "Money Train" and "Die Hard with a Vengeance" -- and I guess that this independent studio is doing some new productions using NYCTA subway cars. If I find out anything, I will post.
Kind of makes you wish you had some powerful binoculars or supertelephoto camera lens.
Maybe someone can sneak out a Sea Beach train to California. Believe me, if such a thing was done, I'd find a way to get to it. Don't doubt it for a minute.
I'm prety sure those R-30s out in LA have N signs on them. I'll even go out on a limb and say their side route curtains have an Astoria/B'wy/Sea Beach or Queens Blvd/B'wy/Sea Beach sign, or both.
SteveB 8AVEXP: Hey old buddy, tell me where exactly they are and I'll take a jaunt down there. Do you or anyone else knows where they are?
I would venture to guess they're at a studio lot, if not a scrapyard.
They might very well have "N" signage. The blue/silver cars are so heavily covered with grafitti that I doubt if you could see what the signs say. The "redbird" paint scheme cars, no doubt came from "Die Hard with a Vengeance" and "Money Train" filming (at another studio) and I'm sure they still have the incorrect signage displayed in those movies.
Well, I did see SOME correct markings for the stations depicted in Money Train. For example, in the scene at 5th Ave., even though the station is fake, the train is marked as an F. And then there was the honest-to-goodness R-62 4 train at the real 33rd St. station - the only undisguised station in the whole movie.
Oh, I have super powerful binoculars. I also have the telephoto lenses to do it with.
BUT -- slight problem, the ONLY place you can see them from is the northbound I-5 Freeway. Not only is it ILLEGAL to stop on freeways except in emergency (or the infamous traffic jams) but in that particular area, it is VERY dangerous to do so, no emergency lane on the side as it is an interchange sandwiched between the LA River and the Gene Autry Museum. Caltrans (the highway department) is forever cramming more lanes into the spaces they don't have with a shoehorn, and this is one of those places.
Went to Branford today in the rain, along with my younger son and Dave Wallace. Had a tremendous time, even with the rotten weather. Met Steve K. on one of the RT cars (don't remember which), rode all three RT cars that were running plus the Canadian trolley and Third Avenue 629. PCC 1001 stayed in the barn today due to the weather - I would have loved to have ridden that one. Didn't get to see my old friend CNS&M 709 - it was buried back in one of the closed barns - but I suspect I'll have an opportunity to do so sometime in the future, seeing as how I anted up the dues money today. I rode 709 when it was in regular service on the North Shore. About 3:45 they called me out to 629 and I ran her down to the end of the line and back with the instructor, my son, and another Branford member on board. Nice to be able to operate a car that my father and grandfather may well have ridden when it was in regular service. Once I got the hang of the brake it was smooth sailing - a little more training and I'll be able to run that one easily. Of course, they're all different, so I'll hopefully have the chance to learn a few of the others as well.
Dave was going to take the R9 for a spin - he was planning to take the train back to NYC so we didn't stay around to watch, as the nasty weather was taking its toll on my arthritic joints. Hopefully he'll post his story here too - he was sure having a good time when we last saw him!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Wanted to add a PS to my story elsewhere on this thread:
R-17 #6688 had here roll signs turned especially for this week-ends theme which was "Autumn in NY - A Subway Series". Her sings read #7 Express to Shea Staduim, Willets Point. When questioned whether this was correct for this or any R-17, management replied that R-17s in fact did duty on the Flushing line for several months before the R-33s arrived. Maybe in some small way #6688 had some part in helping those amazing Mets make it to the next round in the 10th while we were riding the PCC down the line (there was a big cheer in the car).
Mr t__:^)
Hey, Thurston, too bad #6688 didn't have an Empire Blvd./Ebbetts Field roll sign -- that would've made it an added treat to the theme of "Subway Series".
Doug aka BMTman
Cars that went to Flushing in the 60s if I recall correctly, were 6500-6549. Redbird can correct me if I'm wrong. They were used as extras until the R33/36 World's Fair Cars became sufficient in supply.
Also take note that 6688 and 15 others went to the Flushing Line in 1984-85, to fill in for R33 singles undergoing GOH, before returning to the mainline.
-Stef
Stef: The R-17's can certainly qualify as honorary Flushing Line cars thanks in part to their marroon paint and double ended capability. During the 50's the Flushing Line was dominated by the R-12,14 and 15's. Yet a number of R-17's could be found here.
In 1964 when their where not enough Bluebirds for Flushing Line service R-33 Redbirds went over to lend a hand together with a maroon painted R-17 to make up the eleventh car.
Again during the GOH as you said the R-17's where in demand while the R-33 singles were rebuilt.
Lets not forget that the R-17's outlasted two younger car groups, the R-21 and R-22.
The sub theme of a subway series was appropriate, if it does come to pass it will be an all IRT event. R-33 Redbirds on the #4 and R-33 and 36 Redbirds on the #7.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks, Redbird!
-Stef
Unless the Mets can figure out how to handle those $%#^@$# Braves, they won't make it to the World Series. They need to keep telling themselves the Braves aren't Supermen; they're human as well.
Yes, it was quite "eerie" to hear that the Mets had won while aboard Brooklyn PCC 1001. It was my first time on 1001 and definitely my first time riding ANY PCC backwards!!
Jeff H was applauded after the reverse move was completed.
I went Saturday with my 5 year old son, Matthew. I wasn't sure how long he'd hold up with "Daddy's hobby" but, I must say, we arrived about 12:30pm and didn't leave until about 6. Matthew is still talking about it. We got to meet some fellow subtalkers, too (Thurston, BMTman, RedbirdR33, Stef.) We rode every trolley and rapid transit car that went out on the line between those times.
For those of you who were there Saturday, there was a guy aboard the R-9 trip (Steve was his name?) who was saying that the IND ghost station at Pitkin & 76th does indeed exist. I couldn't hear most of the conversation because I had to make sure Matthew wouldn't find his way off the train through the front storm door. Can anyone fill me in on this?
--Mark
Hi, Mark. Glad you could join us!
About that unused station at 76th & Pitkin Ave.: I heard bits and pieces since the R-9 was making those famous moans n' groans, but I am sure Larry Redbird has the complete scoop on this. What I heard basically is that the rumored station does exist, but that it is completely sealed over with two layers (?) of cinderblocks, and would be inconspicuous to the untrained observer. That guy Steve supposedly claims to have been down in there many years ago (as a kid -- if I heard correctly).
Hopefully Larry will see this post.
Later, Doug aka BMTman
When I was at Branford this Saturday Doug introduced me to a Mr Steve Kresler (I may have misspelled his last name). He was quite knowledgeable about unused tunnels in New York City and especially about the IND Pitkin Av extension which was being discussed by Doug,Thurston and myself. He stated that he had spoken to TA (or BOT) people who actually had seen the tunnels built east of Elderts Lane as far as 78 Street. He said that the station at 76 St was constructed even with stairways which are sealed at the top. He further stated that a bulkhead was constructed at Elderts Lane where the bumpers now end which was three cinder blocks thich and reinforced by steel. He said that he and a few other transit workers tried to break through but that without jackhammers it would be an impossible task. According to Steve the tunnels are completely sealed not even accessable through manhole covers.
As I said before in an earlier post I walked this entire route and saw no evidence on the street of ventilation shafts or provision for stairways at 76 St. In fact at 76 St only the southeast corner has enough space for a narrow staircase and the IND used to like to build wide staircases on all four corners. It would be interesting to know what Pitkin Avenue was like during the construction. Were there houses already there or was it simply a then vacant meadow? It would seem that some provision would have been made in the form of variences for the homeowners at 76 St.
Still Steve was quite knowledeable about this and many other tunnels so it may indeed be as he says.
Have any of our TA members actually walked through any of those tunnels there?
BTW when Doug first introduced me to the man I thought it was our Steve and asked him if he was the original.
Perhaps this should be our next field trip. We can dress up like Con Ed workers and meet at 76 St and Pitkin with some jackhammers and put this matter to rest.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The whole story of a station at 76 and Pitkin is a bit odd. It reeks of urban legendism all over.
This is Flatlands-Vandalia Avenues
The next and last stop on this 3 train will be Starrett City.
If indeed the tunnel and station do exist, there's got to be a record of it somewhere in the city archives. Perhaps one of our "unemployed due to no longer needing to work" (everyone's getting upset about "retired" lately) SubTalkers can do some research? I'd love to myself - I am trained as an archivist/librarian - but somehow I don't think my employer would find it relevant to what they pay me to do.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There has to be some records somewhere!!!! I think the library or city hall (or Queens Borough Hall) would be a better trip than disguising yourselves as Con-Ed workers with jackhammers!!! (But not as much fun!!!!)
Redbird, thanks for the post.
I'm ready with my hard hat!
--Mark
Mark: It worked for Dan Akroyd and Bill Murray. Why not us.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Anon-E-Mouse, his son Russ and myself showed the good judgement to take the ride up on Sunday in spite of the weather. And I'm glad we did.
What a great day!! A big thanks to the folks up at Branford - especially Steve K and Jeff H and one other fellow - (was that you Pat?) who worked so hard to make a great day of it.
These good people enabled me to fulfill a childhood dream. I stood behind the controls of an R9 and ran it down the track.
NOTE: Allowing visitors to operate equipment is a special treat that the museum has offered a few times in the past and may offer again in the future. This weekend was one of those special occasions.
For those of you who remember the great sounds - the hissing air doors and brakes, the growl and groan of traction motors and straining gears, the distinctive smell of an R9, the railfan window, the soothing almost cozy heat coming from under the seats - the experience was nothing short of AWESOME!!! And all this with the R9 MU'd to a Low V!
(Sorry for the caps - I almost never use them but this was beyond fun!)
Steve and Jeff showed great patience in instructing me how to get things moving and more importantly - stopping.
For trolley fans, the museum has a bunch of cars from various lines including Third Avenue, horse drawn trolleys, a PCC - you name it.
Subway equipment includes the R9, the Low V and an R17. In addition the museum has a CTA car, an SIRT car and various other pieces of rapid transit equipment including several buses - some needing repairs - ranging from major to minor.
Anyone out there looking for that magical time machine? Do you want to see pneumatically powered doors? Do you want to listen to an old time air compressor under a subway or trolley car? Do you like cane seats? How about wooden cars? If any of this appeals to you - take a ride or a drive. You will find your way back at The Shoreline Trolley museum.
If you live in New York City, MNCR/CDOT has M2 equipment ready for $9 a ride to New Haven and the cab ride from there will cost about $14 with tip. If you want to spend more money and add in a ride over Hell Gate Bridge, Amtrak will take you to New Haven for $26 each way.
If you drive, take I-95 beyuond New Haven and look for the signs to the museum in East Haven.
The museum needs and deserves our support. I encourage everyone on this board to put aside some time and take a ride to Shoreline. You'll find it's well worth it.
I noticed you gave directions Dave and thought I might add that a much more scenic route (especially fall, for the folliage) would be to take the Hutch to the Meritt Pkway, and the Meritt all the way to Millford where you can catch I-95 the rest of the way. You also save a small toll, have no commercial traffic, and might avoid some traffic tieups. You also miss the ugly service areas which certainly aren't the same since fast food replaced the coffee shop counters.
"What a great day!! A big thanks to the folks up at Branford - especially Steve K and Jeff H and one other fellow - (was that you Pat?) who worked so hard to make a great day of it."
Patrick is one of the qualified subway car operators. I don't believe he visits this board, so I'm answereing for him. On Sat. they had four there (Jeff, Steve, Patrick & Lou).
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for putting in a good word.
I'm sorry I didn't meet you since I got sidelined with an injured knee. Folks, I'm OK now.
-Stef
You can always say you actually touched something with a ten-foot pole. I did back in 1980 when Eddie had to move 1689 from one of the sidings with no overhead wire. He attached a heavy cable to the underside of the car; the other end was connected to a hook on the end of a long wooden pole. I guided the hook onto the power line and walked along as Eddie slowly moved the car.
Dave, we'd NEVER guess you're a marketing person from your comments :-)
Great to have your company on the ride up - looking forward to doing it again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse and Russ
It was a pleasure riding up with you and your son Chris and meeting other Subtalkers as well.
As for my marketing skills - I'll help the museum any time - any way I can by getting the message out to the folks who are most likely to spend $$$.
It was great day despite the rain, traffic and an a minor accident on I95. Driving a subway car is an experience I'll never forget. I had the honors of driving the Low-V with the R-9 in tow. But after placing the Low-V into emergency twice, Jeff took the controls and drove back to the platform. But if the opportunity comes again, I'll try it again.
Thanks to Jeff and his crew for making this possible and also the volunteers at Bradford.
Paul Polischuk
experience I'll never forget. I had the honors of driving the Low-V with the R-9 in tow. But after
placing the Low-V into emergency twice, Jeff took the controls and drove back to the platform.
Just to clear up misunderstandings Paul....I took the train back
into the platform as a matter of policy, we generally don't allow
students to operate into the yard over all the facing point switches.
Also, for the first time ever, we had both cars in the train taking
power thanks to a temporary bus-line jumper run between the cars.
You may not have realized it, but when you called for power on
the Lo-V, another motorman in the R-9 behind you was following your
move and making the R-9 take power too!
I was unaware of the another motorman. I should have been more alert on what was going on instead of talking. Sorry Jeff.
Paul Polischuk
Happened to catch the promo for next week's "Felicity"- one of the plots seems to be Felicity and friends (??..I have NEVER actually seen this show..) in the old "lets get our main characters stuck on the subway, and see what happens..." plot. (how many times has tv used that old saw??) Anyway....I seem to remember reading that this is one of those shows that films a lot of establishing shots in town..but then tries to pass of Toronto or Vancouver as NYC. So lets all at least tape this, and see what they use as a "New York City subway car"...
I'd like to see someone pass an Almond Joy off as an R-32/38.
Wouldn't that be a display!
In some of the relatively few episodes I saw last season, they had brief shots of Felicity getting on a Redbird at Bleecker St station. Both the train and the station seemed real to me.
Watch, it's going to be another cardboard background, with cheap lighting. Did anybody see the episode of Seinfield when the whole show took place on the NYC Subways. It was amazing how the doors never moved and the tunnel is pitch black.
Yeah, I saw that one.
By his start and end point(somewhere on the Upper West Side to Coney Island) we can surmise he took the B, while Elaine, travelling to a lesbian wedding, was on a Brooklyn Bound 4.
I noted in one episode when Mr. Pitt was ill, Elaine claimed to have taken the RR from Queens. I don't think the RR was still around during that time.
Whoever wrote the episode or was the story editor probably left New York sometime in the early-to-mid-80s, and that was their best recollection.
I haven't seen "Felicity," but it may have done some on-location exterior shooting in New York for a few episodes, while the full scenes will be filmed on a sound stage in Hollywood, or Vancouver, or wherever.
Outside of the movie, "The Incident," and Woody Allen in the R-17 in "Bananas," I really can't think of too many interior subway scenes that have looked very realistic. Most of the time, it doesn't evne look like the art designers even try for an accurate re-creation.
Not Mr. Pitt. That was well before she worked for him, it was a boyfriend of hers. Also recall that they all transferred at Times Square in the Subway episode, Kramer's bogus directions (would never be accurate) and the graffiti on the trains. Remember, this was all done in 1992.
This is the 2 bound for Emmons Avenue
The next stop will be Gerritsen Avenue
I remember that episode... Kramer's train had a destination sign indicating it was going to South Ferry, but the interior of the train looked to be even larger than that of a BMT train -- certainly much larger than the IRT trains that actually serve South Ferry.
Don't forget the movie "The Fugitive" where Harrison Ford breaks the window and jumps off the train as it is entering the "Balbo" stop on the L. Last time I checked there's no stop at Balbo; the stop they actually showed in the scene was Clark / Lake. But at least they used a real 3200-series train.
The few episodes of "ER" I've seen have some scenes that take place on real 3200's as well.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Also, remember the "Cigar Store Indian" where Queensborough Plaza was underground and the back of the forward/rear facing seat was towards the door area, not against another seat.
This is Empire Boulevard
The next stop on this 4 will be Church Avenue.
Out of blind curiousity, has anyone ever been stuck on a subway train? I don't seem to recall hearing about any incidents in recent years
I don't know if this counts as stuck, but the only instance was when some dumb f*** pulled the emergency brake because of a sick passenger or something. This was on the southbound Q after Church. It was fun (yeah, right) seeing the same D that I passed up at Sewer aka Atlantic Avenue to get the Q pass us by on the local, plus a few Qs also.
This is New Lots Avenue
This is the 3 bound for Starrett City
The next stop will be Linden Boulevard.
This afternoon, I was stuck on a 'D' train, stalled between 205th St. and Bedford Park Blvd. We were stuck for about 10 - 15 minutes due to signal trouble. Of course, I was in the 2nd car, alone, and didn't have my keys with me to walk up to the first car to find out what was happening. I had to wait just like a customer. NOT FUN...
I seem to recall my father said he got stuck on the BMT back in 1967. We went into the city on May 21, and while my mother, my sister and I headed up to the Museum of Natural History on a moaning, groaning AA train, my father left us at the 42nd St. mezzanine and headed for the BMT Broadway line to visit his cousin in Brooklyn, who was ill. He joined us later at the museum, and naturally I let it be known that I wanted to do some more subway riding that day, at which point my father said his train sat for perhaps an hour either on the Manhattan Bridge or at one of the portals, and he didn't think it would be a good idea to ride around that day. I think I asked him what train he took, and while I don't remember what he said, it was probably an N or QB (this was before Chrystie St., when the QB ran all day on weekends). I had to settle for a ride back to Port Authority on another AA train, and while we were waiting, an express ripped past, probably an A train. We ran neck-and-neck with a D train for part of the way, with its "Coney Island" signs illuminated.
Any Subtalker going to Harmon on the 16th??
I'll be on MetroNorth's 8:54a (8813) Express to Croton-Harmon (9:45)if anyone wants to ride toghter. There should be shuttle buses from the station to the shops.
Well, I'll definitely be there, but don't know if I'll be riding the 8:54 Exp.
-Stef
I'll be there. Driving. Brian
I hope to be driving there. (before it opens)
I'll be there, probbly with a few tag along friends. Hope they're nice to us and run some ACMUs on the Hudson......
I'll prob be driving over to Beacon and riding down...don't how early....what is the times anyway??
Shop is open 10am - 3pm/.
You don't need a bus, it is a short walk.
Two years ago they provided buses...thankfully too, as it was a very rainy day...
Anyone know if there are any videos for sale that show the BMT Southern Division Lines - Brighton, Sea Beach, West End, Culver, 4th Ave.? Either historical or contemporary are OK. Thanks. E-mail back if you can.
Andy ... I sent you an e-mail.
--Mark
Karl: I know that you have a special interest in the BU's. 1227 was running at Branford this weekend and doing a very good job. The BU's were speedsters in their own right and had good acceration. This is something not appreciated by those of use who only remember the Q''s with the IRT Composite maximum traction trucks. 1227 is painted a bright maroon or red and her interior seems to have the original paint scheme. There were longitudinal seats at the ends of the car and eight cross seats in the center. She was one of 35 cars (1200-1234) built by Osgood Bradley back in 1903 for something called the Transit Developement Corporation,which was probably some kind of BRT subsidiary.
There is something delightfully incongruous about riding New York City subway and el cars through the salt marshes of Connecticut.
Larry,RedbirdR33
"There is something delightfully incongruous about riding New York City subway and el cars through the salt marshes of Connecticut."
Probally has something to do with hanging out on the back porch of the BU, or the others with their front doors open while they're rolling along ! Or maybe it was all those folks that were talking to each other ?
BTW, did anyone else notice the customer on the R-17 that fell asleep on the way back from Short Beach ? He did wake up just in time to get off at his stop (he he he).
Mr t__:^)
Speaking of 6688, did it have a chance to rocket down the mainline as it has been known to do?
Of course it did!!!! She's like a bolt of lightning, and that's probably why I like this car so much.
-Stef
Larry, Thanks for the report on 1227 and the other cars for that matter. I sure enjoyed your posts as well as all the other "subtalkers" who made it to Branford over the weekend. It sure sounds as if you all had a great time. I was with you in spirit if not in person. I thought of what you were doing at various times on Saturday. I probably would have gotten on 1227 and never budged for the rest of the day.
Our craft show in Maryland on Saturday was terrific, one of the best ever. It was still no substitute for Branford. Sunday was a disaster with all the rain, not one sale, and we almost drowned.
Today is dryout day, we are trying to get our E-Z UP dry as well as tablecloths, some inventory etc.
Reading everyone's reports of the weekend operations has been very enjoyable. Thank You All...
Karl B
Karl: A little more info. 1227 still has the markers on the outside of the clerestory and the high roof. Something the Q's and subsequently our three remaining Bu's lost when they went to the IRT.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I always liked those markers no matter what position they were placed on the car roof. I have watched for one or a pair of those lights at railroadiana shows for years and have never seen any offered for sale. I've seen several pictures of marker equipped cars being scrapped and the markers were still present which indicated to me that they must have all gone to the junk pile with the rest of the car. I guess that none were ever saved. I would have thought that they could have been converted to house current and illuminated on display in a hobbyist's train room. IIRC, all four colors were on those markers, red, green, amber and white. A pair of them would have looked great in a train room.
Larry, Did you happen to notice, Has the missing anti-climber been put back on 1227 yet?
Karl B
Having been to Branford and ridden 1227 as well as visting car G at Court Street I wonder if any of the good people at Branford could tell us of the status of the other Gate Cars in the collection.
IRT 824, BRT 197,659,1349,1362 and 999 (Instruction Car).
Are any others available for service? Thanks in advance for any info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry:
Not much good news on this front. All of these cars are unrestored, have suffered from the salt air, and, except for 1349 (and a bit of painting that was being done on the outside of 999 by Albie Hirsch before he passed away), nothing has been done to the cars.
824 - Housed in barn, inoperable with large hole in roof.
197 - No motor damage, since it is a trailer, but has not been painted or used in many years.
659 - Unrestored, with burned out motors.
1349 - Had the platform disassembled by a member who then stopped coming. He came back briefly this year and cut the beam necessary for rebuilding of the platform. The truck has been disassembled, and the wheels need to be turned. This car has the most hope of any in the group.
1362 - Outside under a tarp. Flooded motors and, now, beginning to suffer damage to outside walls.
999 - Inoperable with bad end. For a brief time, it was thought that 999 could be used with displays inside her, and that may come to pass a few years down the road.
While the news is not good, I hope this answers your question.
There's always hope if we put our heads together, Lou. Something of a positive nature will happen to the El Car fleet even if it takes many years.
-Stef
It seems to me that the gate cars are in poor shape and that BERA with it proximity to the Long Island and flood plains is not helping matters. Maybe Seashore can help out in preserving these cars while BERA could have inside car storage built on pilings. Money is always a issue. Maybe the Federal Government can help with a huge grant.
It seems to me that the gate cars are in poor shape and that BERA with it proximity to the Long
Island and flood plains is not helping matters. Maybe Seashore can help out in preserving these cars
ROTFL! Seashore is in the same boat as a lot of other railway
museums: more cars than barn spaces. Maybe Todd can comment.
All of the "gate cars", Brooklyn and Manhattan, are indoors with
2 exceptions: 1362 and 999. 1362 is a BU convertible identical to
1349, which is inside and being restored, albeit slowly. 999 is
of course the former BRT Instruction Car, although all of the
setups inside were removed before the car was preserved. These
cars are outside but they are protected with long-term tarps.
Jeff you are 100% correct! One of the dilemmas of Museuming these days is ensuring you can protect your current collection, in addition to acquiring additional "artifacts."
At Seashore, we are absolutely gridlocked in our yards/barns, and many of our precious collection is outside in the not-too-hospitable Maine weather.
These issues are debated constantly by our trustees, and I know it's the same everywhere!
Does the fact that Seashore is on the national register of historic places (I thought I heard someone say that on Saturday) help if you should decide to apply for a grant?
--Mark
Lou: Thank you very much for such a comprehensive answer. I printed out your respone and will put it in the files. Again thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yesterday in the Philadelphia Inquirer, there was a story
in the travel section about L.A.'s Red Line subway,
basically going on ad nauseum with the same comments you'd
expect to hear from someone when you talk about a subway
in Los Angeles like:
"With all those earthquakes?"
"Doesn't everyone drive over there?"
Or my favorite:
"L.A. has a subway?"
It said that the Red Line only gets 40,000 riders a day
but the MTA hopes that when the North Hollywood extension
is complete in 2001, the line will get 200,000 daily riders.
BTW, the writer referred to the Blue and Green Light rail
lines as "surface trains". Anyone ever heard that one?
Those aren't surface trains, they LUV's. I rode them.
"Those aren't surface trains, they LUV's. I rode them."
LUV's?? Those were Chevy mini trucks in the late 1970's!!!!!
Maybe LRV for Light Rail Vehicle.
And calling them "surface trains" can be correct, they do run on the surface, except for a 1/4 mile tunnel at the north end of the presently operating Blue Line.
Starting now, all my posts (unless I forget) will be signed with a station announcement based on the R-110A for all the lines in order. BUT, I will only do the unbuilt parts of my fantasy lines. Should be fun.
This is Flatbush Avenue, transfer to the 5.
This is the 2 bound for Emmons Avenue.
The next stop will be Kings Highway.
Stand Clear of the Closing Doors.
It's a kitschy thing.
3 Train Mike does that too.
How about "This is the 2 headed for Utica Avenue"?
That's who I got it from. But all of my stations are purely fake, you should see what my brain can concoct. just one note, I've decided to rename Gerritsen Avenue in my last message to Quentin Road-Gerritsen Avenue. The LED display would just say Quentin Road. And Kings Highway is Kings Highway-Avenue N with KH on the display.
This is the 2 bound for Emmons Avenue
The next stop will be Avenue U.
Thanks for recognizing my posts guys.... I will end my format with my fantasy line as well. The Utica Ave line. Here we go......
3TM
This is a Manhttan bound H making all express stops to 72St-West End Av. The next station will be Shore Pkwy/Emmons Ave. Transfer available to the B4 and B44 on the lower level. Step in, Step on, Stand Clear of the closing doors.......
That's an interesting line. Not part of my Commutist Manifesto though.
This is Church Avenue
The next stop on the 4 will be Avenue D
Hey, to each his own. Seems like our lines kind of coincide........
3TM
Shore Pkwy/Emmons Av. Transfer to the B4 and B44 lower level. The next station will be Avenue Y. Transfer to the B36 on the lower level. Stand clear of the closing doors........
Hey, as long as you're on the Utica Ave. line, don't forget Fulton St., especially the part where transfers are available downstairs for the A and C.
I believe that the webmaster has removed my off subject threads like the changing of airport names. It seems we must stay on the subject of trains and not other transportation subjects.
I don't think Dave minds too much if it's rare and has some relevant connection to rail topics.
But it's always better to stay on track, as it were.
> I believe that the webmaster has removed my off subject threads
> like the changing of airport names.
Not true. I count 67 messages with the title
SUBJECT>Re: Guilliano International Airport
or variations thereof.
Maybe you just need to change your parameters to see older posts.
-Dave
According to the TV listings in today's (Monday, Oct. 11) papers, PBS -- or at least WTTW Chicago -- is showing "The American Experience: New York Underground", at 9:00pm Central. If this is the show I've seen before, it's about the construction of the original subway line and the story leading up to it (the Beach pneumatic line, els, etc.) and it's very good.
I tried to find the New York City television listings in the office copy of the New York Times, but I came to the conclusion that the New York Times HAS no television listings. How can a newspaper be so pretentious as to exclude both comic strips and television schedules? (It may be a National Edition thing, but then why does the paper include movie show-time listings for the New York City metro area?)
They have television listings in Arts (section E in NY) or Weekend on Friday (also E) and there's a magazine for weekly TV listings and TV articles on Sunday (NY only: section 13). According to NY Times Television (that Sunday magazine I just talked about) this will not be broadcast in New York.
This is the 2 to Emmons Avenue
The next and last stop will be Emmons Avenue.
Thanks to the miracle of WebTV, I'm watching a story about
the federal government getting cities motivated to action
about terrorist attcks in US cities.
The story had a point about the recent "outbreak" of West
Nile encephalitis in New York City and that it may
have been a terrorist attack in a subway(for once, me and
Emperor Giuliani agree that it sounds far-fetched).
It seems that subways are the most vulnerable point of any
city. Has NYC done anything in the way of drills or
contingency plans in the event of something like the Tokyo
attack or worse occurring?
There used to be a picture of gate car #659 on this site that was taken in 1969. Although this was 30 years ago the car looked terrific in the picture. I note that Lou lists this as "Unrestored, with burned out motors". I'm guessing that Branford had this car almost 20 years before the picture was taken. Had this car had a previous cosmetic restoration only, or were the last thirty years particularly rough on it?
Karl,
I see Jeff must have missed your question. I'll put my 2c in..
I've seen all the BU cars we have up at Branford, and although there is a lot of work to do on them, they still are certainly not unrestorable. Certainly, they're all in need of paint, at the very least.
If I recall correctly, 659's major body problem is on one of the platforms. As far as trucks and motors, that all leads into a complicated tale, because of the long and complicated history of the cars. Basically, throughout their careers, many of the gate cars had many different kinds of trucks under them at different periods in their careers. So determining the correct truck for the car depends on what time period you are trying to restore the car to. To complicate things further, Branford did not necessarily receive the cars with the correct trucks, and in some cases, trucks for cars have been swapped on the property in the process of restoration.
Although earlier in their branford lives many of these cars were stored outdoors, they all are currently either indoors, or under cover. While their storage conditions are far from ideal, they are much improved from uncovered outdoor storage like they previously had, or even would get if they were in Coney Island (which also has salt-water in the air).
We certainly realize the challenge that we have in preserving and restoring these wonderful vehicles. There are lots of things we could do, given the resources. It all comes down basically, to getting enough people and money involved in the museum to make things happen.
10/12/99
Didn't the BRT "EL" cars use the Peckham 40 trucks ?
Bill Newkirk
Karl, I see I missed your question yesterday. 659 was never
restored. It came up to the museum in the early 1960s after
being a work motor on the BMT. Some cosmetic work was done
in the early 70's ("paintbrush restoration") to make the car
presentable. The canvas roof on the car probably dates back
to the 1920s and was never replaced by NYC Transit. It was
patched in places with roofing paper (blech!). Both end
platforms have el car disease: the 8" crown beam which supports
various platform hardware rots out. One end is a bit worse than
the other. The traction motors were always marginal on that
car. The last time it ran under its own power one of the motors
blew to ground. We do have a spare motor on another truck but
it needs to be thoroughly cleaned, dried and re-insulated. The
blown motor could be repaired but at a cost of about ten thousand
dollars. Right now the truck with the blown motor is actually under
another gate car (1349) serving as a shop truck while that car's
motor truck is being rebuilt. 1349 is the most likely candidate
for becoming fully operational again (AFAIK it was never functional
since before it came up to Branford). 659 might be workable as a
control trailer but it needs a lot of body work to safely carry
passengers.
Jeff H & Steve K
I want to thank both of you for your responses to my question about 659. I'm sure that you both know that the gate cars were my main interest in NY Transit when I lived in the city 50 years ago.
I realized that the museum roster picture was 30 years old but since the car looked so good in the picture, I thought it would still be that way. I guess that pictures can be deceiving.
Karl B
10/12/99
Ten thousand dollars to rebuild a traction motor? Wow!,that's a lot of money for a museum operation that relies on grants,donations and volunteers. Can a firm be approached to rebuild this motor or any museum motors? Is Marine Electric still in business? They used to or maybe still rebuild the traction motors for NYCTA. If so maybe they can do it as a charity case for a tax writeoff.
Bill Newkirk
I'll answer both of your questions under this thread.
The BRT el cars mostly had Peckham 40 trucks. There were two
varieties, motor and trailer, the latter having a shorter wheelbase.
Some of the earliest electric cars (e.g. 659) were evidently
delivered with Brill 27G2 trucks. There is some debate about
what 1227 was delivered with. Based on articles in the Electric
Railway Journal, I believe the BRT had standardized on Peckhams
at that point. The 1300 convertibles were Peckham as delivered.
The 1400s had American Locomotive Co ("ALCO") motor trucks but
Peckham 40 trailers. The 1400s became the 1600 ("Q" type) A&C
cars. After the Composites were scrapped, their trucks (which
were not the original trucks but the 1915 hybrids that the IRT
put under them for elevated service) wound up under the Qs.
This had the unfortunate side-effect of making the cars a little
too high and so the roofs were cut down when they were rebuilt.
The Peckham trailer trucks remained but the ALCO motor trucks were
given to the 1300s. In turn, their Peckham 40 motor trucks wound
up under some of the older equipment.
The Peckham motor trucks were generally equipped with Westinghouse
50L motors and the ALCOs with WH 300s. The latter is a more modern
design and packs more HP (190 opposed to 150) in about the same
space, which is HUGE in either case. The blown motor is a 50L and
to fix it means a complete armature rewind. We've had Marine
Electric do some motors in the past as well as Stone-Safety Electric.
They don't do it for free. If they did they'd have a nation full
of railway museums knocking at their door! The price of $10,000 is
based on the large size of this armature. We've had streetcar
motors done for about half that. The price is not excessive,
when you consider the cost of the skilled labor needed to do it
and the price of the copper wire.
Just to emphasize a point, you must also consider that the TA rebuilds hundreds of identical motors every year, and can get volume pricing. Our museums have to get a single motor rebuilt, often without full specs, so the rebuilder has to examine the original windings and adapt the available materials to the application. Seashore has a good working relationship with Electricmotorworks in Portland, and gets reasonable pricing and much follow-up support. They normally do AC motors but can handle DC also. We hooked them up with the MBTA, and they are bidding some of their work.
There have been many postings, at times over the last few years, about the Manhattan Bridge and 63rd. St. connections. Many commenters have information and/or opinions, but it would be nice to find out what the official MTA information is on the Manhattan Bridge and 63rd St. connections.
Specifically, for the Manhattan Bridge, does it include whay the work is being done, by whom, the need for this long time to complete the work, the cost to-date, what remains to be done, estimated time of completion and when revenue service will start using it, etc. Any information from any other responsible agency(or agencies) would also be appreciated.
For the 63rd. St. connection, when the work began, the cost to-date, what has been done and what remains to be done, and estimated time of start-up with revenune service to/from Queens.
Thanks,
Mike Rothenberg
You might want to contact the NYC Department of Transportation about the Manhattan Bridge. NYC Transit's a guest on the bridge.
David
[Specifically, for the Manhattan Bridge, does it include whay the work is being done, by whom, the need for this long time to complete the work, the cost to-date, what remains to be done, estimated time of completion and when revenue service will start using it, etc. Any information from any other responsible agency(or agencies) would also be appreciated.]
Hey, I'm on the technical advisory committee of a study of the Manhattan and Williamsburg Bridges, and I don't even know what is going on. The last plan I heard had the H tracks open, and the A/B tracks closed, in 2001, and the A/B tracks reopened in 2003. At that point the bridge would be "fixed," but would require ongoing reconstruction indefinately. I think the Willie B is supposed to be "fixed" as soon as it is painted.
I guess no one will really know until the latest fix is completed, and the twisting, metal fatigue and cracks either do or do not recur. That, of course, will be when the current Mayor and Governor are out of office. I wonder if yet another administration can duck after these.
Think of the Manhattan Bridge as New York's Money Pit.
I prefer the term "Infrastructure Vietnam." As in Vietnam, once they decided to go in they were unwilling to pull out because to do so would be to admit all that had gone before was wasted. Everyone at NYC and NYS DOT knows that if they came out today after hundreds of millions of dollars and said the bridge had to be replaced, heads would roll. As it is, maybe they can retire before the S__T hits the fan.
In other words, before the bridge tumbles into the East River.
In the new NY Div. Bulletin, ERA, there is a list of planned service diversions through 2000.
There are a couple to start in October 2000 which would require trains which use the 53rd Street tunnel to reroute via 63rd Street.
So unless I'm somehow misreading the list, it would seem 63rd Street will be ready to through-route in less than a year.
Is this info online?
3TM
Gerritsen Av. Transfer available to the B31 lower level. The next station will be E.36 St. Transfer available to the B2 lower level. Stan Clear of the closing doors.......
There is a picture of gate car #659 in the museum roster on this site. This picture reveals a small round disc at the ceiling level of the end platform close to the second vertical bar. In this picture the disc is almost directly over the woman's head. It was always my impression that this was a recepticle for a jumper cable and it was used when the car was coupled to a non-motorized trailer (200 series car). The jumper cable would provide current for the lights in the trailer.
Over the last ten years I have had several discussions with another former New Yorker who says I am wrong and that the trailer got its lighting current through the coupler.
I know he is wrong, but the big question is, Am I right?...HELP!
I just located that picture. Karl, you are correct.
There is a socket on the BUs which would be
located just over the woman's head. It is a cast
iron box with a hinged cover. Inside is a single bronze
pin. It is connected to the 600V circuit of the car through
a 50 amp fuse. When making up trains of gate cars with trailers,
a jumper cable would be used between the trailer and one of
the adjacent motor cars to provide heat and lights. That's
the Brooklyn cars, which all used low-voltage trainline controls
with 7-point jumpers located under the anti-climber.
On the Manhattan cars high-voltage controls were used with
10-point jumpers and a separate single-point jumper for auxilliary
power. These were all located under the anti-climber.
None of these cars transmitted electricity through the coupler
proper...they all used sockets and jumpers. The first cars to
have electric portions on the couplers were the AB standards.
Thank you Jeff, I am going to print your answer as well as my original question, and mail them to my friend. I thought I remembered that jumper correctly. I'll tell you, it feels good to be right for a change. Thanks again!
10/11/99
With a gorgeous day on hand,I thought I would take advantage of my day off and bring a camera along. My trip started on the (Q) train from 34th St & 6th Ave. Took that to Church Avenue and changed for a (D) to Beverley Rd. There I shot passing (Q) expresses and caught the nice job of the restoration of the station head house. Took a (D) to Newkirk Avenue (where else?) for lunch.Took northbound (D) to Cortelyou Rd for more of the same. With the sun changing angles,I headed to church Ave. for a southbound (Q) making express stops. At Church,what appeared to be R-68's coming into the station was indeed that. A four car train dead heading with front signs exclaiming "Not in Service" and side signs,"(S) Franklin Ave./Prospect Park". The numbers were , S2923,2922,2920,2921N. The express run of R-40 slants were delightful. At Ocean Parkway,the 4 car R-68 consist was waiting on center track for us to leave. Trip continued to Coney Island for transfer to (N) to check out those southbound (B)'s using the resignaled express track. The 4 car R-68 passed us on an empty (N) track. There was a couple of employees on board,possibly to be trained when service starts up and the virtues of OPTO. The subway maps on my R-40 slants (N) had the September 1999 map showing the Franklin Shuttle and the new Botanic Garden/FRanklin Ave. connection! Also the map proclaimed "Reconstruction complete,open Oct.3,1999".
Then came the announcement,"Due to track work,we will be making express stops to 59th St".We left Stillwell and up the northbound express track we went. The trip from 86th St to 8th Ave. was 9 minutes and of course we went express up 4th Ave. You should have been there,"Sea Beach Fred". IT was sunny,it wasn't summer but it was special. OH Fred,the Sea Beach line says hello and misses you much !!
Well,I'm vacation next week,so let's hope the weather is bright and sunny. Something tells me I'll be shooting those REDBIRDS in the Bronx!
Bill Newkirk
Ahhh yes, Beverley Road. The Coney Island-bound platform makes for some fine picture taking. Nice view to Church Ave and Newkirk Ave.
--Mark
Its also fun roaring through that station on a Q train as you gently come around that curve.
I remember that curve before the welded rail was put in. Heading toward Brighton Beach, just as you approached the Beverley Road overpass, the train would lurch violently from side to side before the straightaway to Newkirk Ave. It didn't matter what type of subway car you were on - they all seemed to lurch similarly. As a kid I always thought hte train would derail on the spot!
--Mark
I always thought Cortelyou was a better spot, and how about Ave H ast the trains go up and down the hill to Newkirk?
10/11/99
Spotted at Church Ave on the (D)(Q). 4 car consist of R-68's deadheading south with a couple of employees. Side signs signed up (S) Franklin Avenue/Prospect Park. Car numbers were S2923,2922,2920,2921N.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, that's a good sign that things are heating up for the start of service on the Shuttle.
I'll keep my eyes focused for the removal of barricades by Franklin on the A/C during tomorrow mornings rush.
Doug aka BMTman
Keep us posted. I hope to examine every station and Pseudorailfan (R-68s, you know how they are) the whole line.
BTW, I've decided to stop announcing the destination on my fantasy routes, it keeps people surprised, especially on the wild and wacky routes I have planned.
This is Linden Boulevard
The next stop on this 3 will be Flatlands-Vandalia Avenues.
I can't stand the suspense..............
Neither can the Manhattan Bridge.
RIM SHOT!!!
Doug; It was good to see you at Branford this weekend. In the hustle and bustle I was unable to give you an answer about the surviving SIRT cars. In 1971 the MTA took over the passenger operations of the Staten Island Rapid Transit Railway and established the Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority. The remaining 48 motors were transferred to the MTA and subsequently scrapped in 1973 with three exceptions; 366 and 388 were stored on the Travis Siding, 353 was still at the Clifton Shops as late as 1978 but was subsequently moved to Travis. Somewhere along the line the Trolley Museum of New York acquired title to these cars but were not able to move them so that by 1993 car 366 left for Seashore Trolley Museum in November of that year and is there now as verified by Mr Todd Glickman. Branford as you know acquired 388 and we both know it is there. Car 353 was de-accessorized (did I spell it right) from the TMNY collection and when last I heard (May 1994) was still at Travis.
There was a fourth car that was preserved and that was trailer #508.
This was one of a group of thirty cars (25 mtrs,5 tlrs) transferred from SIRT to the NYCTA in 1953. The five trailers never ran in passenger service on the TA. Car 508 was acquired by the Trolley Museum of NY sometime in the late 70's or early 80s and moved to Kingston where she served as a Visitor's Center/Gift Shop up until November 1991 when she was destroyed by a fire.
I have additional info on all the SIRT cars so please e-mail me at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com and I'll send you what I have.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think the word you were looking for is "de-accessioned".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon: Thanks; I'll have to look that one up in my Funk and Wagnalls.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The move to deaccession the two SIRT cars was made around the April board meeting at TMNY. Since no offers were made to Mike Hannah or anyone else at TMNY, it is likely that the cars will get cut up on the spot as Con Ed has closed that site months ago and the real estate developers who took over demanded the evacuation of these cars.
Is there someone who can get me on that site, to take some pictures of those cars before they get sliced up?
I've known they were there for years, but they moved from where I used to see them.
-Hank
Speaking of SIRT cars - I read somewhere they had a predisposition to catch on fire, or at least quite a few did - anyone know about this?
Phil: I don't know if the cars themselves had a predeliction to catch fire but the car fleet certainly did suffer from it. Five cars were destroyed in the 1927 fire at Tottenville,eight at the St George fire of 1946 and seven at the Clifton fire of 1962. Equiptment wise the Clifton was the most devastating since after the sale of thirty cars to the TA and two others destroyed in the South Beach derailment SIRT was left with 48 cars which was very close to the number required for peak service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As it turned out, the TA scrapped the ex-SIRT cars once the R-27s and R-30s had arrived in sufficient numbers. They could have sold the cars back to SIRT, when you stop and think about it.
Larry, thanks for the info on the surviving SIRT cars.
BTW, in my teens I used to photograph equipment at the 36th Street yards (this was in the mid-seventies). There used to be a SIRT car parted there on a siding in MOW yellow. It looked as though the yard gangs were using it as a tool shed or operations headquarters. I never got a shot that indicated it's ID sign, so I don't know if it was any of the cars that were saved.
Doug aka BMTman
10/11/99
This was a "controlled trailer" that eventually was acquired by the T.M.N.Y. and years later was torched by vandals in Kingston. This car actually burned up TWICE. First there was a fire on NYCTA property in 36th St yard,of which I have interior shots of,and the final fire that destroyed it totally in Kingston. Millens steel,across the street from the T.M.N.Y. was called on to cut up the car on site.
Bill Newkirk
Hold on. I think the car you refer to is actually two separate incidents with two different cars. Car 501 was being used at 36th Street Yard until the fire which put it out to pasture and R16 6421 came in to replace it (about 1983? Check an ERA bulletin). Car 508 was TMNY's trailer that got torched while over there, in the early 90s.
-Stef
Jeff: I realize that this is last minute notice but I plan on being in Brooklyn tomorrow to check out the Broadway El at Lexington Av as I'm sure thre must be some evidence left of the connection to the Lexington El if only in the form of special steel work. I don't know what your work schedule is or if I could reach your precindt by phone from the station, but maybe we could meet to check it out.(I understand that your precindt is in the area) If you read this please post or send me an e-mail at RedbirdR33@hotmail.com.
Larry
I'm not sure what I'll be doing tomorrow, but let me know what your findings are. I haven't found anything. I thought I once saw a different pattern in the metalwork but then discovered the same at other intersection.
I was wondering if the Branford guys could let me know what has gone on down there. One of my "pet peeves" at Seashore is that we have had the same cars on display in Riverside and Highwood for years. I can't tell you how long I have "been on the soapbox" that we ought to rotate some "fresh" exhibits in from the back. We are going to try again this off season, but I was wondering how it has been done at other museums. Have exhibits been "rotated" down there? What about other museums??
Thanks.
Jeremy
The cars at Branford are packed pretty tightly into the barns
just like Seashore. Indoor storage space is a valuable
commodity. Rotating displays becomes a complicated exercise
because cars come in all different shapes and sizes. Since
I've been operating at Branford, the cars in Barn 1 haven't
changed much...mostly because they were selected to tell a
specific story. On the other hand, the cars in Barn 3, which
is the other public barn, have changed every few years. And
of course the cars on the shop floor can change daily!
This weekend was a real SubTalk get-together. It was my pleasure
to meet so many online personalities in realspace.
We had a total of 10 new members who took up our offer to
study the controller handle in more detail. All were either
SubTalkers or SubListeners. I gave subway car lessons to 9
of the above, the 10th took up our offer on something, in a way,
more exotic: Third Avenue Railways #629. All of my "students"
reported it was their first experience running such equipment,
and all did very well. Saturday's lessons were on the R-17
which is pretty easy to pick up. Sunday it was drizzling all
day and the R-17 had to stay inside since it is in the middle of
a paint job. The lessons were given on a train of AMUE equipment
(R-9 and Lo-V).
SubTalker Thurston got dirty and learned a little bit about
emergency subway car maintenance (I had him repair an air
leak that was immobilizing H&M car #503) and DifCo cranes (he
assisted our track department moving ties).
A few people have asked when else we run the heavy stuff and
why never on weekdays? We are considered an industrial electricity
customer and our power bill is based on actual usage plus peak
demand charges. The demand portion is only measured Monday-Friday,
and a demand peak one day increases our base rates for the entire
billing month. Therefore, it is prohibitively costly for us to
run rapid transit equipment on weekdays, other than switching it
around in the first point only.
The next scheduled operation of subway/el equipment will be Members
Day in the spring. Those of you who've joined the museum will of
course read all about it in our newsletter. Members Day is another
opportunity to take a guest run, although usually the demand is
so great that we can only accomodate 1/2 of a one-way trip, as opposed
to the complete 1.2 mile one-way that our students took this weekend.
Till then, if any of our new members would like to come up and
volunteer, please feel free to contact me via email.
It was great day even in the rain. My wife enjoyed the experience and talking with fellow enthusiasts also.
Thanks Jeff to you and your crew for making this possible and to relive a bit of history.
Paul Polischuk - ( A Sublistener )
My thanks to everyone for making my run at the controller of #629 a most pleasant experience. Next time I'd like to give #1001 a shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Heard the above annoucement and was greeted by two R68's at Prospect Park during this morning's AM rush. SERVICE ON THE FRANKLIN AVE SHUTTLE HAS BEEN RESTORED!!!
GREAT NEWS! Lou, notify me when you want to hook up.
Tomorrow afternoon?
Doug aka BMTman
Sounds good to me, but the weather might not agree. I'll email ya ASAP, pretty busy right now, 10am meeting....
Are you sure?
I rode the Q to Prospect Park and the white signs were still on the wall and the station. I didn't see any train.
According to the daily train operator assignment sheets for Tuesday, a large number of train operators had to report to the Franklin Shuttle to qualify for the route. There was a sufficient number of OPTO qualified people to give the TA a "pool" of t/o's if needed to replace the regular guys/gals who picked the line as their assignment.
Was there twice today (Tuesday), 4PM & 11:30M It is STILL CLOSED!!!!!
Yup, the conductor was wrong. The train on the shuttle track is doing qual's for OPTO T/O's. Bummer
Can someone recommend some good hotels to stay at near Central Park?
(Hotels near Central Park).
You've logged on to "Subtalk," not "Personal Jet Talk." From the point of view of anyone who would choose a subway train over a taxi or limosine, there are no good hotels near Central Park, because their prices are so high and the money could be better spent elsewhere. One could argue that due to the shortage, there are no good hotels in NYC.
The best hotel for a Subtalker would probably be the new Marriot in Brooklyn: its right over the Jay St Borough Hall subway station, just five minutes from Lower Manhattan and 15 -20 minutes from Midtown by train. And $200 per night cheaper than those luxury hotels on Central Park South.
Thank you, Mr. Littlefield. The price and locale sounds good. I plan on being a subway ridin' fool by the time this trip is done.
No Personal Jets here. Just need a taste of "real" NYC (other than a movie).
Anyone else out there agree with Larry?
Most of us, I suspect. I've never stayed there - when I didn't live close enough to go home I stayed wherever corporate put me - but Larry knows that area as well as if not better than the rest of us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon-ne-mouse, I am probably going to go with Mr. Littleton's advice: on to the Marriot.
By the way, I hope the Yankees take it all, esp. after defeating MY TEXAS RANGERS***
I wondered if Metroplex referred to the DFW area, and I guess it does. Speaking of the Metroplex, how are the transit plans, including the proposed connection to the airport, moving along.
Metroplex=DFW...
So far the system connects around the Dallas area and to Irving. Fort Worth is preparing to spend money for their part, but Arlington (home of the beloved, yet NYYankee shell-shocked Texas Rangers) is dragging its feet. The airport growth seems to never end.
Of course, Arlington, Tx. is still the largest city in country without rapid/mass transit. There's a lot of talk without much substance.
The excitement mounts as we prepare for our visit to the Huge Apple.
I'm gonna read as much as possible so I can manuever thru the subway maze.
My wife thinks DFW is such a wonderful airport that she will go 1000 miles out of her way to avoid changing planes there. Unfortunately, when she went to Nevada on the 1st speed was of the essence (she was trying to get there in advance of our newest grandson - he won the race by two hours) and the other connections were much worse. Most connections seem to be from one extreme of the airport to another. Fortunately, I've managed to avoid it - Salt Lake City seems to be where I end up, and that airport makes sense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Of course, Arlington, Tx. is still the largest city in country without rapid/mass transit. There's a lot of talk without much substance.]
And Phoenix is the largest city in the *world* with no mass transit service on Sundays.
Hey, if you're looking for a hotel by Central Park I assume money is no object, so you might as well go for the best- The Plaza
You didn't mention what price range you were looking for... My own price range is about as low as low gets, and I managed to find a half-decent place not too far from Central Park during my most recent visit this past summer. Of course, "half-decent" meaning I didn't have to step over any passed-out winos or dead bodies to get to my room.
It's called the Amsterdam Inn, and is located on the northwest corner of Amsterdam and 76th on the Upper West Side.
Positives: It's only two blocks west of the park, and is easily reached by the 1-2-3-9 trains at 72nd / Broadway and the B-C trains at 72nd and CPW. Room rates begin at about $75 a night for a single -- Not bad for that part of town. The facilities are also fairly clean and well-kept.
Negatives: It's a "Euro-stlye" inn, meaning there's a shared bathroom down the hall. Somebody else using the facilities? Gotta hold your water for a bit. Rooms are approximately the size of my walk-in closet here in Chicago, and they only accept cash or travelers checks. No need for a wakeup call, as there is a large construction site directly on the other side of 76th. Work starts promptly at 7 AM.
It ain't the Waldorf-Astoria, but it's in a good location and provides a decent place to crash if you're on a tight budget. Plenty of food choices in the area -- There's an excellent little bagel shop that serves great coffee right up the street... Can't remember the name offhand but it's on the west side of Amsterdam around 78th or so, across from a playground if I remember right.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Thanks, David. I am looking for a big double-bed situation to split the price of a room. I sent you some email, also.
One vote for The Brooklyn Marriot, The Plaza, and The Amsterdam.
If you're willing to pay a little more, thanks to a legal hassle between the current, former and potentially future owners of the St. Moritz on Central Park South, rooms were going for as little as $169 dollars through the Hotel Reservations Network or Quikbook earlier this year.
Not cheap, but considering the location and what it's neighboring hotel, the Plaza, charges for a room ($169 might get you a closet), a pretty low price.
There is a subway entrance to the N and R trains built right into the side of the Plaza Hotel on Central Park South. Does anyone know if the subway can be accessed directly from the hotel without having to go outside?
[There is a subway entrance to the N and R trains built right into the side of the Plaza Hotel on Central Park South. Does anyone know if the subway can be accessed directly from the hotel without having to go outside?]
Only by means of an entrance restricted to hotel employees.
Is this employee entrance at the level of the entrance on the side of the hotel because I have noticed a door in the stairway as you decend from the street, or is the entrance in a completely different location?
[Is this employee entrance [to the Plaza Hotel] at the level of the entrance on the side of the hotel because I have noticed a door in the stairway as you decend from the street, or is the entrance in a completely different location?]
It's the one you noticed.
There used to be a Day's Inn on West 57th St. near 10th Ave. The name was changed to something else, but I think it is still there. I don't know what the rates are, but I'm sure they are a LOT less than the Plaza and its brethren, but still a good deal more than most Day's Inns.
That hotel is now a Holiday Inn, and is no bargain - usually close to $200/night. It's next door to the CBS Broadcast Center (TV and network radio, but NOT WCBS Newsradio-88 - we're still on W. 52.).
$200 for a Holiday Inn shows why it is so important for NYC to get more hotels. In most cities, you can stay outside of Downtown for far less money, and drive in. In NYC, you can't drive in, but you can subway in. We need more hotels on the subway.
I told Larry Redbird about this so I'm posting it here.
Back in 1993 a friend who did trackwork for NYCTA took me on a tour of a station that most New Yorkers are not aware of: the original Roosevelt Island station of the N train line. It is an unused and dust-ladden abandoned station (w/light fixtures, tiling signage). It is located directly above the current Roosevelt Island station and was never put into service.
The reason for the unused "duplicate" station? Simple: the original Roosevelt station was made with inferior concrete. With my own eyes I saw huge cracks (more like fissures) in the roadbed and tunnel ceilings. Apparently, the station was kept quiet by those "upstairs" at MTA so as not to bring down the wrath of the press (and the taxpayers) who would lambast the management for such a major screwup. As it was, we -- the taxpayers -- ended up paying for the same station twice. That is why -- as Larry rightly surmised -- the Roosevelt Island station is much further underground than is actually warranted.
BTW, I scribbled my name in the layers of dust on the station's tunnel wall.
Doug aka BMTman
Cool story! When was the station built? Is anything visible from the N train or from ground level?
N train Roosevelt Island Station? Have I been missing something in the 60th St. tunnel or has the MTA figured out a new way to get the N to Astoria?
>>>>BTW, I scribbled my name in the layers of dust on the station's tunnel wall. <<
How did you get in there? Any photos? Because...this sounds like a job for
www.forgotten-ny.com
Don't you mean the original station on the Q line? I don't think one was ever built for the N train.
Yep, the station he's talking about is right next to the regular ststion thats open. Its behind the wall. There is a metal gate
between the two stations. I think its used once in a while to stow
N trains but never for passenger service.
David, that "mini-station" for the parked N trains is NOT what I am talking about. Although I did see that track on the same trip.
What you are talking about is a single "siding" where they store two sets of 10 car N trains (over the weekend?). There is an unfinished line there since the track goes up quite a bit and then ubruptly ends at a crude cave-like unfinis