Does Kawasaki have a web site? I don't know a whole lot about the comp., and I'd like to learn. How long have they been in the transit industry?
The name of the company is "Kawasaki Heavy Industries Limited" not "Kawasaki Rail Car, Inc.". The web site is
http:\\www.khi.co.jp\
Having worked for them in the past, I can tell you. They
have an excellent quality control program. They used to
produce some of the finast rolling stock in America. Far
superior to Bombardier.
But they got cheap. In order to keep costs down, KHI never
actually employed it's work force. They were all temp
workers for manpower groups. When TWU tried to organize
the labor, KHI retaliated and cancelled their contracts
with the various manpower agents and hired new ones. This
has happened twice to date and because of this they have incurred tremendous cost overuns and labor difficulty. All of their orders are way behind schedule, and The Long Island Rail Road has already stated they will not order their new MU's from KHI.
That leaves the LIRR with the choice of either Bombardier or AdTranz. Some choice! The Rock or the Hard Place. Nobody else seems to be in the business except maybe Breda Ferroviare Construzzione SpA of Italy.
Wayne
Never worked for Breda, but I worked with guys who did. No one had anything nice to say. I did work for ABB Traction, which is now AdTranz. They are pretty good. The FL9 is a damn fine engine. THEY have some maintainence issues, yes. But don't judge the entire company for that. Arrow III and ALP-44, two outstanding orders I was proud to have worked on. Judge on that as well.
I can't deny that Bombardier turnned out a fine fleet of R62A's. But now their problems at the upstate plant with the local labor raise questions. Companies do change. They try and cut corners, save money. I've read some posts about where AdTranz was cited for turning out less-than-stellar equipment - people keep griping about the Philadelphia M-4s. There seem to be a lot of variables. You're right - you have to go on a case-by-case basis.
Wayne
The LIRR already went with Bombardier. THe story made Railnews in the July issue, I believe.
-Hank
For those of you with a computer equipped with a sound board, and able to play MP3 files:
http://EL-List.Railfan.net/archives/mu.mp3
That's a few minute long file of a lacawanna MU train approaching, stopping, making cool compressor / air sounds, then pulling out. Noisy motors. I found headphones, or your parent's stereo system =) worked best for this file.
The compressor is somewhat modern type. Takes a few seconds to get up to speed!! Also note the MG, and contactor oises.
BTW - are those AMUE brakes?
Actually, if you go to www.stevek.com, I have, on a page with some New York Days pictures, a quicktime movie (with sound) of Branford's Hi-V Lo-V train passing the camera at trackside. The noises are there, and all.
The NYCT web site reports normal service back on J,M,Z as of 5 am today, Wed, Sept. 1.
Someone in the field confirm?
So much for NY1's "exclusive."
At Bway/East NY this morning there was not the overcrowding on the A train that has been the norm for the past four months, so I would assume that things are "back to normal".
BTW, I wonder if Todd are any of the SubTalkers did a "grand re-opening-first-over-the-bridge" inaugural run? Let us know.
Doug aka BMTman
It must be up an running because I've heard nothing but 8 car J trains rumble by my house here in Queens since 6AM.
Not that I'm aware of, Doug. Being in the middle of the week, it was out of the question for me! But I'll be in NYC this weekend, and perhaps I'll take a quick ride over Willy between my reports on the :08s!
Will the weekend Fulton St. service pattern remain the same?
I didn't see anything about rescinding A express service in the advisories.
Weekend A express service on Fulton St. is a permanent service change unaffected by the re-opening of the Willy B.
Will the expanded L service be continued now that the J/Z can resume normal service?
I should ask the station manager on my return trip tomorrow. I would suspect that the expanded 2-5 minute leaway between trains will dissappear once things get going full-steam over the Willy B.
Doug aka BMTman
Since that was my normal route, I went back to that way today. It's pretty nice, and the bridge itself was a smooth ride, kind of like welded rail. It was just slower than I thought(I thought that with all new structure and signals, it would be faster), especially with the grade timers on the Manhattan bound descent. THe curve over Roebling is not only slightly gentler, but there is a little more space between the tracks (couldn't tell from the ground.)--enough to have yellow fibreglass walkway. So as I've been saying, the barrier to 75 foot cars at thatt point should be over.
They are still dismantling the bridge to the special exit at Essex, so all Queens bound trains have to use the middle track.
All the extra shuttle buses are still sitting in the SW corner of the plaza. And CNG LF Flyer 803 was sitting next to them! (no depot sticker) I wonder what this is for. 3000's are still running on other FP routes, and I saw one slant 40 still on the M
The discussion of the "next-to-last grade crossing" (on the Norton's Point L line, 1919) got me to wondering whether there are people around who have first hand memories of elevated trains on that line. Someone now is his/her 80's might have such a memory.
So my question here is: "What is your oldest memory that you can put a date on of transit?"
For example, I have clear memories of certain features of the Flatbush Avenue trolley. The trolley was discontinued 3/5/51, so I can say my earliest memories of transit as no later than March 1951.
What's yours? I wonder who on this board has the oldest datable memory?
I have memories of riding the Jamaica Ave. el to 168th St to go shopping for clothes as I started kindergarden in 1977. Since the line closed on 9/9, I must assume this was August 77.
I also have an even older memory of riding an R7-R9 car on that line, but I cannot date it. I was very young and all I remember was seeing an exposed fan on the ceiling.
My father actually remembers Lexington Ave. el service on the Jamaica Ave. line!
I was born in 1953 and I can remember the trackless trolley buses in Brooklyn as a small pre-school child. It had a trolley pole on the roof to get its electricity but had rubber tires and I assume a steering wheel. I always wondered if I was just imagining it until I saw a picture of one in 1960 in the book "New York Transit Memories" by Harold Smith. I knew the author was right about the year because there's a Volkswagon bus next to it and they came out in 1959 or '60. I remember riding on BMT standards on the Sea Beach with my grandmother, and also watching the Sea Beach trains from the 20th Av overpass before they cemented in the holes.I remember my dad taking me & my brother to the Polo Grounds to see the Mets (before Shea) taking the "E" from Jamaica where he parked (drove from LI) to 7Av and then the "D" to the Polo Grounds (the stop before Yankee Sta) I remember grade crossings on 106/107 in Hicksville.I cannot remember what I ate for lunch yesterday!!!
I enjoyed riding the Lo-V's and the R-1's when I started riding transit. Does anyone remember riding the Hi-V's and Forney Steam Dummy trains. How about the Composites or Gibbs Hi-V's?
I first encountered the term "subway" in Richard Scary's (sp) Best Word Book Ever. If you'ever seen this book, you know what I mean. Lots of pictures with words for individual parts or items. Later on, I saw a staircase descending from the street in Mishawaka, IN and asked my father if that was a subway entrance. My father said no, there are no subways in Mishawaka or South Band, but that Chicago had a couple of lines and that New York had many.
Fast forward to July 21, 1965. That's when my subway baptism occurred. The rest is history. R-10s on the A. R-27/30s and R-32s on the Southern Division. BMT standards on the Canarsie.
The more I think about it, my oldest memory of transit predates my subway initiation by two years. I remember seeing PCCs and trolley buses in Toronto in 1963.
The more I think about it, my oldest memory of transit predates my subway initiation by two years. I remember seeing PCCs and trolley buses in Toronto in 1963.
Here we go again, even further back in time. Buses in South Bend in 1960 or 1961.
The year was 1955, I was only 4 years old and was with my parents on our way home from the dentist. (on Eastern Pkwy in Bklyn.), we were on the New Lots Ave. bound upper platform (I can still see the penny gum machines) of the Nostrand Ave station. We saw two unusually BRIGHT headlights at the famous "X over switch. My father, who was a constuction flagman, said something that to this day I recall, "it must be one of the new trains".
Vague memories of electric buses on Flushing Avenue, near Carlton Avenue. This had to be 1959 when I was just 3 years old because my family moved from that area in early 1960.
I remember riding on a trolley on Coney Island Avenue; I was quite young, but since I don't know when that service was eliminated, I can't say how long ago that occurred. I can also vaguely recall Culver line trains on the 4th Avenue line.
Coney Island Avenue quit in 1955. Culver-Nassau (truncated to Ditmas Ave.) lasted until 1957, I believe.
9/1/99
As stated in an earlier posting "Do you remember",Low'v's at about 6 or 7 years of age was my first memory. After that,trolleybuses making the turn at Flatbush Ave and Empire Blvd. I was fascinated at the overhead wirework and occasional sparking. I was equally impressed by the quiet ride and humming sound I heard. Ah yes! Good old Brooklyn!!
Bill Newkirk
I certainly can't go that far back, but I remember riding the 15 trolley during a particularly hot summer day(I'm pretty sure it was 1989).
It was a PCC, which I always liked getting on but found kind of spooky since they weren't as bright inside as the LRV's are.
For the earliest specific date, I remember riding what I think was R1 eqpt on June 5, 1960. It was my birthday and my parents drove in from Huntington to 179th Street to take the subway in to the Museum of Natural History and Chinatown. I think we road the F train as my Dad seemed to prefer the F over the E. Back then, the F ran express from 179 inbound and the E only ran express after Continental Ave.
I think we changed for the E at Lex and the A at 42nd street.
Other dates - I remember riding the Monorail first day the New York World's Fair opened in 1963.
My first ride on a BMT Standard came in the Sumnmer of '66 shortly before they were retired. I rode the Canarsie line end to end as part of a plan to cover all the BMT lines in one day.
Also rode the Q cars on the Myrtle same day. I was in awe of those dinosaurs.
Ahhh --the good old days!!
The last BMT standards were retired in August of 1969. I rode them regularly on the Canarsie line from 1967 until then.
It's funny how many people prefer the F over the E. I know I do.
I have an early memory of riding a Chicago & West Towns trolley car to Brookfield Zoo in the western suburbs of Chicago. This is reasonably datable; the line was discontinued on April 4, 1948, when I was 14 months old.
(Also memories of the 1948-49 Chicago Railroad Fair, by the way.)
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Riding Lo-V's and World's Fair Steinways on the 3rd Avenue EL in the Bronx in the 1960's. Riding the AB Standards on the Canarsie Line in 1968 and 1969. Riding the Q cars on the Myrtle Avenue El in 1968 and 1970. Riding the R1 through R9 on the IND in the 1960's and early 1970's. Riding the Lo-V's on an ERA Fan Trip in Sept of 1971. Riding the D Types on a fan trip in 1972.
I wish I could haven ridden the 3rd Avenue EL in Manhattan and over the Brooklyn Bridge from Park Row to Sands Street to Adams Street and Bridge Street stations. What a joy it must of been for those who did.
Born in 1937, I probably rode the Broadway-7th Avenue express to and from Marble Hill before this memory item, around age 5: riding the front car of a Second Avenue El train and having the tracks curve onto 23rd Street to continue south over First Avenue. I suspect that the train had crossed the Queensborough Bridge, as the route from 129th Street was closed earlier, maybe due to the imminent construction of the Second Avenue Subway! One lesson from this: A Second Avenue subway ought bend east to better serve the Lower East Side on the way to South Ferry.
I remember riding the Lo-V's on the Jerome Ave. line. One time I got on the first car (with my parents) and noticed the front where the motorman was was an "open platform". I wanted to ride up there and watch but was told it was not allowed.
Was the Flatbush Avenue trolley number 41? What were the terminii?
My oldest memory: Riding the R-46s on the F line from Coney Island, often to Jay Street just as a joy ride. I remember the Stillwell Station, with the ramps and the dark vast mezzanine (which was even more vast if you're that small) I remember the seats, and the chimes, (or I just think I do, because it's still there) but not the blue stripe. I also remember R-32s on the Brighton Beach El and some graffiti (the two are unrelated). Let's not forget the Brighton M and the double letter trains! I also CLEARLY remember riding on the south side of the Manh. bridge. I didn't know it then, but it's obvious.
The date, circa 1986-7. Fare: 90 cents to $1.00.
Was the Flatbush Avenue trolley number 41? What were the terminii?
Flatbush was 41. The terminii at the end were close to the same as today. A loop on the west side of Flatbush Avenue between T and U (the signs said Avenue U, but there was essentially nothing there at the time--a rural crossroads) and a branch also went to 71st and Island Avenue.
At the north end, in my memory, it went to Parkes Cadman Plaza, near the foot of the Brooklyn Bridge. It had a kind of loop there, too, I seem to recall.
The neatest feature of the line for me was that it ran on a sort of reservation along the east side of Grand Army Plaza (both directions).
After the 1940 reroutes, the Flatbush Avenue trolley used Livingston Street and went around the block near Borough Hall--all the streetcar routes had been removed from Fulton Street. Even the DeKalb Avenue trolley turned at Albee Square instead of running into Fulton and routes like Putnam and Third Avenue were bus-tified.
Flatbush Avenue never had trolleys with route numbers (only the PCCs carried numbers, if memory serves) and I'm not certain that '41' was the original route number for the trolleys. It was the bus route number, but the BQT had duplicate numbers for trolleys and buses--an '8' on a bus was 18th Avenue but was Church or Church-Gravesend (McDonald) on a trolley.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The trolleys did have route numbers, though the pre-PCCs did not carry them.
For, as you alluded to, Church was 8 (and Gravesend-Church was 13) although these were both changed to 35 post-BMT. But, AFAIK, no pre-PCC equipment carried these numbers.
This (the 2 numbers for the Church Ave. Line) raises an interesting trivia: how many Brooklyn trolley lines closed on the last day, 10/31/56? Most would say two: 35-Church and 50-MacDonald. But both branches of Church closed that day: what was 8-Church and 13-Gravesend-Church. So did three close that day?
My records show Flatbush was 41 both bus and trolley, but the 8000s that ran on the line didn't carry the number.
Paul Matus is right about pre-unification BQT streetcar route numbers, as I mentioned; it would be nice to see a complete list of them--I can't remember when I last saw one. It's strange that the BRT/BMT/BQT never developed any kind of roof-mounted route number signs like San Francisco or Cleveland, for example.
You could make the case that three lines closed on Halloween of 1956 and even I wouldn't argue about it. It depends on how you count, but I think officially 35-Church was a single line--were operators simply assigned to "Church" or to "39th" or "McDonald"?
Flatbush ran 6000s to the end, not 8000s. The 8000s were double-ended and Flatbush ran single-ended cars. I always thought it an interesting coincidence (or deliberate choice) that the heavy Triplexes on the subway and the heavy streetcars, all delivered arond the same time, were both numbered in the 6000s.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I seem to recall, way back when, a trolley motorman on Church telling me that his job involved alternating trips to 16th and 1st Avenues. Some runs also ended at Church & MacDonald but those may only have been depot run-offs.
For some reason I had though Church was 6000s and Flatbush 8000s, but maybe I was thinking of 8000s on Ocean, a line I have only vague memories of. Also, curiously, I have no distinct memory of anything but PCCs on Church, even though I lived half a block away and was almost 11 whenthe line quit.
BTW, the 6000 series buses were also big impressive heavyweights. They were the big air suspension Macks out of Ulmer Park which went into service at the same time the last trolleys went. They operated, for example, on B1-Manhattan Beach, B3-Avenue U, B6-Bay Parkway/Avenue J and B8-18th Foster. Also all over Staten Island. Me and a friend of mine nicknamed them "Triplex" buses for their heaviness and number series. They were a lot of fun to ride.
Cleveland never had roof mounted route numbers. The large numbers on the 4000 series Witts and the Articulated 5000's were the run (or in some system's term: block) numbers. Took some getting used to, especially if you came from a system that had route numbers. Cleveland used route names, like Toronto until recently. Route numbers didn't come into use until the CTS TT and bus era.
Thanks for the Cleveland correction. Peter Witt and his people were far ahead of their time with the large signs--I guess I never thought the numbers were anything other than route numbers. Some new buses have large signs that are reminiscent of the Cleveland cars in pictures I've seen.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
This is going to date me, I really can't tell which came first.
Riding in my uncle's car and seeing the Queensborough Bridge Trolley.
Riding Gate Cars on IRT Rt 9 Dyre Av Local
Riding MUDC's on 3 Av El from 149 St to 42 St right after Hurricane Hazel (1954?)
Riding the NYC West Shore from Weehawken to Fort Montgomery in 1952.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The first extended trip on the subway came on July 27, 1963 - Flatbush Avenue (actually, Newkirk), all the way up to Dyre Avenue via the 7th Avenue line. I was eight (almost nine) at the time.
I do remember riding on PCC Trolleys in Washington DC as a four-to-five-year old. My Grandmother lived one block from the #42 Trolley and we used it to get to "F" Street downtown.
I also remember riding on the IRT from Newkirk to Borough Hall as a very young child. Also, a ride or two on the Nassau Loop from Court to Chambers, changing there for the Jamaica #15, again, as maybe a six-year-old.
My first SOLO with permission on the subway came on January 28, 1969, at the age 14. I went from Atlantic Avenue to Church Avenue on the IRT. On April 10, 1966 (Easter Sunday), I had an unintended solo on the Broadway BMT - I became separated from my parents and Grandmother at 49th Street. A policeman came along, I told him where Grandmother lived, and we took a "QB" train out of there (it was an R32). The policeman stayed on the train with me. At De Kalb Avenue, I saw my Father on the platform and we got off. The policeman assured him that all was well. Dad was very grateful and very relieved. We then got on the "RR" by mistake and had to go down to 9th Street to cross over and come back to De Kalb, walking through the 4th Avenue station in the process.
Wayne
Since Wayne-Mr.SlantR40 brought up his first SOLO I'll mention mine. (I mentioned my oldest memories earlier in the thread.) My Grandmother lived near the Newkirk IRT station (coincidence, Wayne?) and whenever I stayed there we took public transit. I always begged her to let me ride by myself and one day when I was about 10 or 11 ('63,'64) she let me stay on the one station to Flatbush and back after she got off. I felt like a real adult!! Later that same year I took the bus to Hempstead, (I lived in East Meadow about 4 mi away, still do) walked one stop to Country Life Press and took the train back to Hempstead.(an MU) The conductor laughed when I tried to pay and let me ride for free.
First solo ride was from Lexington Avenue on the RR, all the way out to Beechhurst on the Q15.
I was 9, it was 1967. My mom worked in midtown, I went in with her in the morning. We had lunch and then she put me on the train at Lexington Avenue, I changed at QBP to the 7 Express, rode to Main Street, and then got right on the bus.
Life was never the same since!!!
July 27, 1963:
Grandma lived at 2015 Dorchester Road, at the corner of East 21st Street. We had our pick of subway stations - Cortelyou Road north and west, Newkirk Avenue south and west, Newkirk IRT south and east. IIRC Dad and I walked over from Dorchester to Newkirk IRT because he wanted to check up on two former residences - 2511 Newkirk Avenue (my first home) and 518 East 28th Street (Mom's childhood home). Then we took our ride. We changed for the BMT on the way back from the Bronx at Times Square and took the "QB" (an R27) back to Beverly Road.
Wayne
Hmmm. January 28 is my sister's birthday. She turned 10 in 1969. I remember April 10, 1966 as well - we saw The Singing Nun (with Ricardo Montalban playing a priest) in South Bend. One year and one week later, we moved to New Jersey.
Anyway, my first solo ride was in March of 1968 on a JJ from Elderts Lane to 168th St. and back. We went to a recital concert at Franklin K. Lane HS (Karl B's alma mater) given by a Lithuanian family which was supposed to be the next Von Trapp Family Singers, and I talked my folks into letting me go for a ride by myself. I missed the first half of the program and got back during intermission, and started dropping hints that I'd like to take another ride, but my mother said no more today. Afterwards, she thought the first half of the program was better than the second half. The recital didn't receive very good reviews, and that family was never heard from again.
Yeaaaay!!!!My Alma Mater!! Isn't it awful, I can't even remember the school song, if there was one. I guess since it was 45 plus years ago I can be excused. Funny thing though, I remember the school song from junior high.
Seriously Steve, If you had been 20 years earlier, you would have seen a dozen or more open platform gate cars laid up for the weekend on the center track at 111th St. Too Bad!!
Well, as a matter of fact, I did see a train of BMT standards laid up at either 111th or 160th Sts which were signed up as a Broadway-Brooklyn local. While I also remember seeing Q cars on Myrtle Ave. (not on that same day), I never rode on them.
Our high school in Jersey had both a fight song (Panthers March On) whose words I never knew and an alma mater (Hail, Pequannock) whose words I still remember today. Cheshire High in Connecticut was another story. We used the old NFL theme called Confidence as our fight song, but had no alma mater. At UConn, it was UConn Husky with very redundant lyrics and Old Connecticut, respectively.
My first solo ride was Wednesday, August 21, 1996 on the A, C, or E train to West Fourth Street then transfer to a 6 Ave express to Rockefeller Center. My first solo transit ride of any kind was on Monday, May 2, 1994 on the B5 (R.I.P) bus between New York Avenue and West 7/8 Streets (N line station). The first transit in another city that I rode was the D.C. Metro in 1991 or the Disney Monorail in June 1989 (If you consider Disney to be transit). The first FRA regulated railroad that I rode on was the PATH in 1997 and the first REAL railroad I rode on was the LIRR in January of 1999 (I can look up the exact date, but I wont bother). The latter two were both solo. The first time I rode a FRA RR accompanied (make it stop!) was the SIR in the Winter of 1997/8 (it was cold, I believe 1998 though). That's enough for my railbiography.
first memory of transit is pay a .19 two zone to go "downtown newark" from irvington. a one zone was .14. went to penn station to watch the big trains go by, to bad i didn't know they going.
I forgot international transit! I've only ridden on the Caracas Metro from Capitolio to I station I don't remember (I would need to check a map). And the only transit bus (farebox) I've ridden outside of NYC or Nassau County was the AMA/MBA bus in San Juan, PR. Now then there's the RTSs on the free Disney system in March 1996 (during Spring break). As for LR, the first time was Wednesday, June 30 1999 on the Boston Green Line.
Well, it's far from being my oldest memory of transit, but since we're getting onto the subject of international transit I rode streetcars and the subway in Toronto in the early '60s, Montreal in 1967, and the entire Barcelona Metro as it existed in 1972-73, including being on the first revenue train to operate on what was then known as Linea IV.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
My first taste of international transit came on May 28, 1967 at Expo 67 on the now-defunct Expo Express. Purists may say this doesn't count, since it was limited to the fair itself and was free. The following day, I rode on the Metro to the fair. I commented at the time how closely spaced the stations were along the Green line, which at that time terminated at Atwater. While I've been on the entire original Montreal Metro system, I have not ridden on it since any of its extensions have been opened.
The first streetcar I ever rode on in my life was in Rome in July of 1977. Other international systems I've been on include London's tube (1978); Paris Metro (1978); Amsterdam #13 tram (1978); a trolley bus in Vilnius, Lithuanina in 1992, and a bus in Kaunas, Lithuanina in 1997.
I cant put a date on it, but my first subway/rapid transit ride probably came in about 1966. My aunt lived in Jackson Heights at 75th st so my first ride was either a R-1/9 on the E or the #7 worlds fair cars. When we would come into the PABT, our mom would ask my sister and I which way we would want to go out to my aunts, and going out we almost always chose the el....especially if was dark..( Can anyone out there remember all the signs there used to be around Court House Sq up to Rawson? I remember the Breyers, the Silvercup..but cant remember any of the others..) I DO remember the howling of the R units, and fast it seemed to a 7 year old from the sticks...
"..( Can anyone out there remember all the signs there used to be around Court House Sq up to Rawson? I remember the Breyers, the Silvercup..but cant remember any of the others..)"
I can remember the Swingline Stapler and the Wrigley Gum signs. Always liked the Swingline brand, until they moved out of Long Island City to....Mexico. Hell with `em, now.
Did MoMA move into the old Swingline place, or was that a different factory? They were outta here before I moved into the area, but I still have a few staplers with the old LIC address stamped on them.
MOMA moved into Swingline, but not the one that just about abuts the 7 line. They're in another old Swingline building on 33rd Street, half a block south of Queens Boulevard.
There were a bunch of great old huge signs in Long Island City. The one that always jumped out at me was the Pan Am sign in Queensborough Plaza. The signs are all gone, but most of the buildings they were on are still there.
I remember Swingline....especially riding in on the LIRR thru Sunnyside.
My oldest memories of transit:
R-10's on the HH,CC & F
R-16's on the J & LL
R-12,14,15,17,21 & 22's on the IRT (1,2,3,5 lines)
R-27's on the Grand St. Shuttle. (Homeless Exp.)
R-30's on the C
GM Fishbowls
Lines like: K,GG,LL,CC,HH,RR,QB & SS
The R to Astoria
The N to 71/Continental
The J to Queens Blvd.
The M on the Brighton Line
K Cars in Rush hour only service to 33rd St.
Philadelphia PCC's
Culver Shuttle demolition.
Dean Street
The "New" Bullseye token
I can go on. But, This is all I can think of right now. Who can guess how old I am?
I'll guess 26.
Not that old.
I think you gave us the answer a while back in another thread about retirement, I think the number is 21?
>>> Who can guess how old I am? <<<
21 going on 70, 8-)
Peace,
ANDEE
OK, here are some of mine:
PCCs all over Toronto.
R-1/9s on the IND everywhere
R-10s on the A.
R-16s on the 15 (what's that?:))
R-27/30s and R-32s exclusively on the BMT Southern Division
BMT standards on the Canarsie
R-38s on the E and F.
Slant R-40s on the E and F.
Sometimes that this board can really back memories - and this morning would be one of those times.
My Grandmother passed away about 6 months after I was born. My Grandfather, who had retired early to care for her, now needed something to fill his days - so his Grandson was it.
We spent many days riding surface transit and the SIRT - not to go anywhere, but just to be together, talk, and look at what was going on. I remember many, many days riding on the back of the R103 and R113, turning out of Tottenville on the then old buses (it was Staten Island, we did have the junk - but they just weren't junk to me).
Each of our trips ended at either the Sedutto's ice cream on New Dorp Lane or the Dunkin Donuts on Hylan Blvd.
I remember one day in particular on the SIRT. Pop had my brother and I. The conductor came around to collect fares. He told Pop that he was too old to pay, my brother was to young to pay, but that I was just right (about 7 years old!).
Paul, thank you for bringing up this topic. It's not too often that I can spend some time reflecting.
9/11/99
Another oldest memory of transit has just surfaced! When I was six years old,my family moved from our apartment at 1420 Eastern Parkway (between Howard and Pitkin Ave's) to our new digs at Ocean and Newkirk Avenue. It was July of 1957 and just 6 years of age I decided to take a walk in a strange neighborhood not familiar to me. I managed to slip away during the move of furniture and boxes and all of a sudden,my parents realized I was missing and called the Police to search for me. I was found alright,at Ditmas Avenue between East 16th St. and Marlborough Road. If you know the area well,Yep,I was peering though the open fence watching the AB's and D-types ply the rails in the open cut in BMT Brighton Line. I guess those bull and pinion sounds were calling me! I guess so,in my early infancy years my family's apartment was on Skillman Street between Park and Myrtle Avenue. Those same bull and pinion sounds of the open platform "el" cars must have been my first taste of old rapid transit. Later on,I was introduced to Lionel "O" gauge trains. TRAINS AGAIN!. Riding the subways today,I don't hear those bull and pinion anymore...SIGH! Progress I guess!
P.S. Living at Ocean and NEWKIRK Avenues gave birth to Newkirk Images
in May of 1992. See the inside cover of the 1996 Subway Calendar for furthur proof.
Bill NEWKIRK
Hey Bill,
Sounds just like me in regards to missing those bull and pinion gear sounds. While I still have an affection for the subway and always will, something was lost beginning in 1965 (demise of the D-types ), continued through 1969 (gone were the ABs and Qs), and disappeared completely in 1977 with the last of the R9s, thus bringing to a finale those beautiful sounds in REVENUE service.
It's great whenever fan trips run, but you just couldn't beat the constant starts and stops with those sounds. (fan trips make fewer stops and starts, thus less variety of those sounds)
Oh Well! "Gimme Dem Old Time Subway Cars, They're Good Enough For Me"
Mike H
Although I'm not sure I know what the bull & pinion gears are, I really miss the sounds of all those cars. (Although I'm not sure I ever rode the "D" Triplex, I was young-I definitely remember seeing them laid up on the Brighton over the Belt Pkway by Sheepshead Bay) The few times I went to the transit museum on Court St, the R9 in the State Museum and the stationary cars at Branford I thought something was missing. It was the sounds!!! At least the trolleys at Branford sound a little like pre-war subways, when the compressors go on it is music to the ears. I miss the grrr... sound, the hissing of the doors on the R1-9's, and the compressors when they were idling. Even the diesels of the 50's & 60's sounded different then now, a rising cresendo!! The oldest cars out there now that were at least once electric were are the MU's but with the motors removed they have no sound. (And why did they remove the reversible seats and replace them with M1 type seats!!!) The funny thing, when I was railfanning as a teen in the 60's taking R1-9's all over, standards on the Canarsie Line & the Culver, "Q"s on the Myrtle, and Low-V's on the 3rd Av El (usually all in one day!!) I thought they would all be around forever!!! Even today when I think of the subway I think of the R1-9's. (Remember the Saverin Coffee commercial)
P.S. Since I never took the Canarsie Line as a kid I thought the Standards were gone for 3 yrs when I spotted one on the "LL" wile changing from the "A" to the Jamaica El at Bway Junct. and went right to it!!! Same story with the Low-V's- I thought they were long gone in the late 60's and I lamented the fact I never rode one till one day I was travelling with my parents on the Bronx River Pkway and spotted one above Gun Hill Rd!!! I was a regular on both afterwards. Thats why when I enter a station I still subconsciously expect one of the old ones to enter. Hell, I'd even welcome an R10 now and I hated them then!!!
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
Hey Sarge. So not only are you into Abbott &
Costello but the sounds of the R1/9's sing to your
heart. Back in the 60's or 70's, I can't place
things in my life exactly ( I'm not even sure where
I am now ), I took a portable tape recorder, one
of those that are the size of a book, and
recorded sounds on the CC and the L with the
R1/9's. I was always loved the sound of the
compressors chugging, the sound of the air being
released when the motorman was braking, the sound of
them roaring and banging away. I can listen to
those tapes now, and just get a very contented
feeling. Sometimes, not often, I'll put the tape in
my walkman when I'm riding the new equipment to make
riding seem more like riding. I try to keep the sound down, because I think another passenger hearing me listen to loud train sounds might freak someone out. I also have a tape
of the Broad Street line in Philly, if you really
like roaring. Anyway, why I mention it-- I'd be
happy to make copies of the tapes and send them to
anyone who wants. They can just send me a blank
tape back. They're not professionally done, but I'd
be happy to share them with anyone who would enjoy
the old sounds. I hope it's okay to give my e-mail
address? pkronenberg@webtv.net And
Sarge,thanks for your web-site, it got me started
again with Bud and Lou and Floogle Street and Who's
on First? Paul
Listening to tapes of the old equipment while riding the new reminds me of someone I saw at a bike rally. In the tape deck of his Honda Goldwing he had a tape of a Harley with straight pipes. While sitting at the curb wth the engine off he was throttling to the tape, must have had it memorized.
By the Way, seeing your name I must say I also miss the sounds of the Mack Buses. As a kid I rode on them on the Hempstead Bus Company from E.Meadow to Hempstead where I changed for an old GM on the Bee Line to 179St Jamaica to get an R1-9!! Sometimes had to pass up 1 or 2 fishbowls!!!
Hey Sarge ( is it okay to call you Sarge ?) . By
the way, let's test your comedy roots. There was a
TV comedy about a Sargeant not police. Four
questions: 1) What was his name in the series 2) Who
was the actor who played him The first 2 questions
were easy. 3) What was the name of the character
in the series who played a short heavy member of the
Sarge's outfit 4) Who was the actor who played
this character. Now to Transit issues. You
mentioned the Macks. Are you just assigned to this
precinct- Subtalk? Next door in Bus Talk over the
last two weeks there has been a trip down Mack Bus
memory lane. I've introduced a few novel posts on
that issue. Most notable to me has to retrofit the
new Orion 6000's series with Mack C-49 6000 shells
to make the bus more aesthetically pleasing. That
one didn't go over too big. Then we've been
considering What's the name of the bus that goes to
Floogle Street? And another big issue has been my
suggestion to rename Ulmer Park Depot to Howard
Brothers Depot in honor of you know who. That one
didn't go over too big either. I'm currently asking
people if they find the middle Accordion Section on
an Articulated Bus to be the most fun to ride. You
seem to hang out on the Electric Side here. Join us over on the Diesel side. We'll meet you half way, we can talk about the new Hybrid Diesel Electric bus. Besides we can always use another guy with a good sense of humor. Come on Sarge. Paul
By the way, let's test your comedy roots. There was a
TV comedy about a Sargeant not police. Four
questions: 1) What was his name in the series 2) Who
was the actor who played him The first 2 questions
were easy. 3) What was the name of the character
in the series who played a short heavy member of the
Sarge's outfit 4) Who was the actor who played
this character.
Can I take a stab at your TV show questions?
IF NOT, STOP READING NOW.
1) Sergeant (Ernest G.) Bilko
2) Phil Silvers
3) Private Doberman
4) Maurice Gosfield
Bonus Answer (since you didn't ask).
I've seen the program referred to as The Phil Silvers Show or The Sergeant Bilko Show, but I seem to recall the original name was "You'll Never Get Rich."
All right. It would take another Paul to know. A minor fine point. Private Doberman's first name was Dwayne. I think the show was originally You'll Never Get Rich" then in reruns I think it went with the other two names. I miss Bilko and his fast talking conniving. So to keep this a transit related post, should they name the maintenance shop of one of the depots the Phil Silvers Maintenance Shop or the Sargeant Ernie Bilko Motor Pool? Perhaps we could do this at Howard Brothers Depot.
Side question - Was Bilko shot in the old Biograph studio in the Bronx, the way Car 54 Where Are You? was, or was it shot in Los Angeles. Bilko had a lot of New York actors, though it didn't need the NYC exteriors. Car 54 had a lot of local exteriors, including some of the Bronx el and the old buses.
I used the same route as "Sarge" while commuting to & from Hofstra University in Hempstead. But by the time I was doing it, the Bee Line had a small number of "Old Looks" and mostly Fishbowls. And Hempstead was using Flexibles.
But the R1/9s were still busy at rush hour and I always looked forward to my rides on them.
>As a kid I rode on them on the
>Hempstead Bus Company from E.Meadow to Hempstead where I changed for >an old GM on the Bee Line to 179St
>Jamaica to get an R1-9!! Sometimes had to pass up 1 or 2 fishbowls!!!
(should be on BusTalk but the thread's here).
I'm an old veteran of the N-2 Meacham Avenue-to-Jamaica rush hour run, as well as countless rides on N-6 Fish Bowls. Bee Line had but ONE Flxible (#669), I believe it was on the Freeport N-4 run. Now and then we'd get an "old look" on the N-6. Only one got painted in MSBA livery - that was #619. Hideous! They painted the whole body dark blue except for a small section with orange/white.
WayneWayne
9/14/99
Wayne,
I have a slide of #619 sitting in the yard of Alert Coach Lines (not there anymore) in Amityville. They also had #616 and #617 which was run on the S-21 in the early 80's.
Bill Newkirk
Let me tell you - I will take you up on a tape recording in a heartbeat! Those R-1/9s and their moans, groans, grunts, and other associated sounds were music to my ears and very near and dear to my heart. If the door sounds can also be heard, all the better!
The bull gear is on the motor armature shaft, while the pinion gear is on the wheel axle. On a subway car truck, they are in constant mesh. On prewar equipment, spur-cut gears were used. Their teeth are cut straight across the edge of the gear, and while this method is less costly, these gears are noisy. Most automobiles with manual transmissions have spur-cut reverse gears, which is why you hear a loud hum when backing up.
Postwar cars beginning with the R-10s have helical-cut bull and pinion gears, whose teeth are cut diagonally across the gear edge. While this method is more costly, it results in much quieter gear operation.
Hey Steve. I posted that offer on Saturday to make copies of the R1/9 sounds. I was in the city that afternoon, and picked up two 8 packs of TDK 60 minute tapes so I could make copies for anyone who wanted them. I still have 2 unopened 8 packs. E-mail me your address and I'll be delighted to send you or anyone some real sound. pkronenberg@webtv.net
I thought I'd put in a plug for Paul's R-1/9 tape recording. Paul was kind enough to send me a copy - man, does it ever bring back memories! You get it all: throbbing compressors, the AMUE "tchhh-hssss" lap-release brake sounds, door locks releasing, doors opening and closing, the load sensing valve, and the bull and pinion gears groaning away. Not to mention handbrake handles banging around.
If you remember the R-1/9s and their marvelous sounds, here's a chance to go back in time, close your eyes, and relive a ride on those venerable cars. Don't miss it!
What a long handle!!!
Paul went through a lot of handles before settling on heypaul.
Hey Bill - I lived for a brief time at Dora Court, which, of course, is 2511 NEWKIRK Avenue. I learned some of my letters on the Flatbush IRT, my Mom pointing out the mosaic plaques and reading them off to me. "S" is the first letter I could say clearly. According to my Mom, I announced this letter, pointing at the "SEARS" sign on the roof of the store building at Bedford and Beverly Road. She loves to recount this story to me every time I visit them in Virginia.
We moved to Elmont, LI in 1956 - Mom and Dad lived there until 1983.
Wayne
I lived overlooking the Brighton Line Church Ave. station (I could see the express tracks from my 6th floor window), then a couple of blocks away until I was 19.
We had almost everything we wanted right in Flatbush. Major shopping on Church Ave. with Macy's, lots of movie theaters, even a vaudeville theater, but it closed when I was 3 or 4.
But the mention of Sears reminded me of what a great store it was (at the time people still called it Sears Roebuck). I looked forward to getting stuff at that store the way modern kids anticipate a shiny new mega-mall.
That reminds me of how they talk up things like "The Mall of America" (Minnesota?) which has major amusements like a roller coaster inside. Who needed a mega-mall when you had the BMT? A fast ride took you to the Atlantic Ocean (the ultimate wave pool), all the rides you could want, any kind of shopping you want, fabulous museums for every taste (most of them free admission) and much more.
Reminds you why we built cities in the first place.
My parents bought me my first electric train set at that Sears Roebuck....it was made by Marx, had 8 curved tracks and 2 straight tracks.
I remember ther Hi-V cars on the IRT westside. I recall they had windows next to the door and when the doors opened you would see what looked like a coiled telephone cord in that window (actually the door pocket)
The Standards and triplexes were on the BMT, Borough Hall Brooklyn ahd wooden escalators--one wide and one narrow. I also recalle how bright Times Square BMT was when they installed fluorescent lighting around 1960. 34 BMT was next! I recall the excitement of riding the NEW goldfish bowls with the passenger operated rear doors. I recall being on a smoke filled standard between the Manhattan bridge and Myrtle Flatbush-a hot box, hot car and even in the late 1950ss/early 1960s the windows did not budge!!We finally got to Myrtle and boarded another train. I recall the local stations south of 34 had diferent style diffuser covers over the lights than the express and local stations north of 34. Of course now the diffusers are gone!
I also recall how ancient I thought the Lo-V cars were and now they are my favorite.
How do you know you are getting older? Answer: When the new cars are museum cars!!The Lo-V replacements are now museum cars!!
(I'll stop here..I could go on and on and...)
Going on the platform with my mother (around 9:15AM) at the Sheepshead Bay station and being surprised that a late express (which only ran at rush hour then) pulled in. And the train was a Type D Triplex and the window in the front was low enough for me to look out of.
I loved looking out the window and I remember looking up and seeing the overhang from the roof of the train. That must have been about 1964.
I also remember the Type D express trains passing the local stations on the outer tracks on the Brighton Line during a six month construction project around 1964. We waited for a local at Cortelyou Rd. and had a Type D express pass the station on the local track.
What's with this trend of resurrecting ancient threads recently?
Hey, I did not have computer access back then, so it is new to me. Maybe that is why these old threads come back.
I was going to answer the first post in the thread, but then I noticed I already did, 3 1/2 years ago, under another handle!
Electric trolley buses on Flushing Avenue in 1959.
Does this win the prize for oldest revival of a thread?
Three years, six months, eight days.
If it was a Triplex "D" type, then it was one hell of a memory. It would have been even better had it been a #4BMT Sea Beach one. That was my all time train. I just loved to see that big #4 come roaring into 42nd Street and Times Square when I was a kid. It meant I could leave that crappy 4th Avenue Local and ride a real train, an express.
In the early fifties, as a child of 5 or 6, I remember riding the old wooden cars on the el that ran along Liberty Ave. in Brooklyn. The station at Crescent St. had a pot bellied stove though I think by that time it was on longer in use.
After my family moved to Long Island in 1954, I would go to the LIRR station in Babylon. The crossing next to the station was protected by gates the were cranked down by hand. The gateman stayed in a shed next to the tracks that also had a small coal stove - this one was still in use.
The absolute earliest memory I have of riding an electric transit line was on the Rockaway Beach line. My older brother told me to get off at a station before our home stop at Beach 98th Street. I remember stepping out the train and standing on the platform. I guess my mother pulled me back into the train before it left. This must have been in 1959 or so. I would have been four or five years old. Maybe that's why I like bridges and trains: my first traveling memories involved open window third rail trains going to and from Rockaway over the trestle!
Also, I remember riding that long escalator at East New York from the IND to the Eastern Parkway/Broadway Junction station, on our way to Jamaica. Again, around 1959 or 1960.
Well, I know this thread is a few years old, but I wasn't around here (at least posting) back then, so here we go:
My first subway riding memory was around 1977 or so. (I rode earlier than that, but was really too young to remember). Anyway, my neighbor had her grandson visiting, who was my age. She decided to take me and him to Radio City Music Hall for a movie and show. I have no idea what the movie was, but sure do remember the subway ride! It involved the M train over the Williamsburg Bridge, and she must've been a closet railfan, because she brought us right to the "railfan" window. I remember so clearly looking down, and seeing the water below the tracks. At Essex, we transfered to the F at Delancy to Radio City.
On the way back we entered the system at the 49th Street/Broadway Station. (again very clear memory - I remember the orange tiles). We took that to Union Square for the L, and then went up to Myrtle-Wyckoff. This is where things got strange, and why I think she must've been a closet railfan. At the north end of Wyckoff station (before all the storage rooms, etc) there was a huge wooden walkway at track level that went to the tower, and also covered the entire area there where the "express" track is supposed to be north of the station (much more than now). We actually walked to the north end of the platform, and walked down to track level and onto that wooden decking over the express trackway at track level! At that time, it was a large wood area, and you could see right to Myrtle-Broadway from that "decking over the express track" to watch to see if a train was coming. I remember standing down there and walking around with her, and watching for the train so clearly.
Well, I was hooked....it was the making of a railfan.
My oldest memory has to be the early Hoboken Festivals. My dad and I would come to them every year. I'd say th earliest one I can probably remember would be 1985 or so. We would usually park in Dover and take the train in. Then we'd walk around the terminal looking at all the displays. Then we'd do one or more of the following things:
1) Take a ride on PATH
2) Take the free tour of hoboken aboard a NJT articulated bus
3) Take a boat ride (used to be Circle Line boats back in the day)
During one of the Hoboken Festivals we rode the "Farewell to the Edison Cars" trip. Here is a photo of me on that trip.
Take Pride,
Brian
Good picture Doobie. Since you are waving a flag I take it you weren't a Democrat in those days. Anyway, those early railfan memories are priceless. My anniversary is coming on April 19, and it will be the 56th since the day I first rode the best line of all.
"My anniversary is coming on April 19, and it will be the 56th since the day I first rode the best line of all."
Happy Anniversary in advance...for it's 56 years since you meant the old #1 BMT Brighton line you first rode on. lol
Actually I rode the Brighton first in 1945 when my dad took me to a ball game at Ebbets Field. He wanted to get me interested in baseball but in '45 and '46 I found it rather boring. It was the next year that I really caught on and became a fanatical fan. I also rode the Brighton to see my aunt and uncle who lived off of Newkirk Avenue from l946 to 1949 when they bought a house in Levittown. So you see I rode your train long before I rode mine. Until April 19, 1947, we always took the elevated West End to see both sides of my grandparents. UNTIL APRIL 19, 1947.
It is always a pleasure to share your childhood memories with your fellow Subtalkers. I hope you remember these stores at Newkirk Plaza (the mall)
Befrore your fetish for the #4 BMT line (a.k.a. Sea-Beach line), you mentioned your aunt and uncle buying a house off Newkirk Ave in Brooklyn. Well to rekindle some memory to you but they probably went to the hardware store by the train station (on the corner of Newkirk Ave, first store in the mall.) If memory serves you right about the hardware store, and the floral shop (Linderman Florist, outside the station control house), they are both still there. The hardware store dates back to 1908 and the florist a few years later (1912, could be off a few years.) Right now, the mall itself is undergoing a major rehab, which they cut off (temporarily???) the open cut view of the express trains roaring into Newkirk Ave station.
When we meet up in the summer for fun in Coney Island, I will remind you of the stores at Newkirk Plaza and the original BRT plaque on the east side of the control house, sadly marred by an asshole spray painting his "tag" on the entire plaque. That is why I consider the Brighton Line so chock full of rich history, and the best line in the world.
Well we got some interesting sight seeing in store, don't we? Looking forward to it.
Of course, you saw nothing except BMT standards on the West End then, right?
Then as the song goes, just one look - that's all it took, and you were hooked on the Triplexes. Just as I was hooked on the R-10s.
"Since you are waving a flag I take it you weren't a Democrat in those days."
And what the hell is that supposed to mean?
Remember Congressmen Bonior and McDermott? Remember Martin Sheen and Barbara Streisand? Remember Jane Fonda? Now you should be able to figure it out.
Fred...
I am not going to argue politics with you any more after this post, because I am in the vast, vast majority here at Subtalk who would appreciate it if you left the right wing bullshit at home. There are plenty of other forums, such as freerepublic.com, where you can vent.
How dare you accuse the Democratic party as being unpatriotic, while the Republican party is the all-American flag wavers. I am happy to be living in the country, and I am about as appreciative of the Bill of Rights as they come, but I am extremely anti-war and I do not support George Dubya Bush. Does that make me unAmerican if I don't wave the American flag everytime i hear plans to kill innocent people for Bush's perverse self gratification? It is our duty as a democratic society to question EVERYTHING our leaders do, not to line up like sheep behind them. I commend all of the above-mentioned people for speaking their minds and expressing their concerns about the way their beloved country is headed.
That's it on my end, I would hope you don't drag politics through the board in the future.
Did you hear me say the Democratic Party was unpatriotic? Did that appear in my post? It did not. I made a few points and let you draw your own conclusions just like Bill O'Reilly likes to do. You did it. If the shoe fits, you wear it.
BTW, I didn't hear you or your ilk complain one whit when Clinton bombed the hell out of Serbia, including the Chinese Embassy where three people were killed. I suppose that was justified. Speaking of bullshit.
Fred, cut the politics... this is SubTalk, not PoliticalFlame.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"Did you hear me say the Democratic Party was unpatriotic?"
You must not remember saying this: "Since you are waving a flag I take it you weren't a Democrat in those days."
So you take a perfectly good thread, and hijack it for your political vendettas?
It's one thing when the discussion veers towards politics, it's quite another when you force it there.
December 26th or 27th 1990. Took the Long Island railroad to New York City to Rockefeller Center. Took the 6th ave subway (I think) took possibly R-68's or R-46's.
February 2000. Took the NYCT bus with my grandparent and brother from 42nd street to the USS Intrepid Museum don't remember the bus line I took.
September 10 2001 the day before the 9/11. Took the N19 bus to the Sunrise Mall and back.
My oldest datable transit memory is of riding the Chicago L. I might not have remembered the date, but I remember that movie posters for Alien were all over the subway tunnels, which would have made it...1979? I know I rode it realier than that, but that's the earliest ride I can date.
Mark
I grew up with a 12th story view of the layup tracks between Ocean Parkway and Brighton Beach. Even though I'm a young pup (39), I remember Southbound trains originating from Brighton Beach. This mean there's a good chance that this was the NX (1967). I can remember R1-9 types parked mid-day and nights on the lay-up tracks.
My first memories of transit were from Queens Blvd. in Sunnyside. I could look out my apartment window (on 43rd St) and see the endless parade of BMT Q cars and IRT World's Fair trains going by. I rode both as a little guy and can still remmember details about them. As I've previously stated in other posts, the Queensboro Plaza station, with both levels going, was an awesome sight! I transferred to BMT Standards if I was going to visit my mother's family in Brooklyn or stayed on the IRT to Grand Central or Times Sq. if I was going to transfer to the Lexington-Jerome or Broadway-7th Ave lines to visit my Dad's family in the Bronx.
If we were just going into Manhattan, we would usually take the double-decker bus that ran from Jackson Heights over the Queensboro Bridge and down 5th Avenue, when the latter was a two-way street. I also remember taking the open-top 5th Avenue bus up Riverside Dr.
Those were great, exciting days for a young boy who was in love with urban rapid transit.
P.S. The above memories were circa 1943-1947, and they are surprisingly vivid. Of course, I can't remember the names of people I met yesterday, but that's the aging process.
I have memories of riding the Jerome Avenue el in the Bronx in the 1960s. My memories of riding R1-9's on the Queens Blvd IND in the early '70s are much more vivid.
My earliest memory...
I remember riding the brand spankin' new orange Kawasaki Broad Street Subway cars, and the brand new Subway-Surface Trolleys around the same time. I also remember riding in some Almond Joys on the El when I went to visit my grandfather in Frankford, and I remember being in some in the dead of summer when they felt like an oven. Most weren't that bad, but a few were. This would've been around 1980 or 1981.
Well, fairly datable, anyway: Riding a Chicago & West Towns trolley car through the Cook County forest preserves, with branches brushing against the car, en route to Brookfield Zoo. The line was abandoned when I was 14 months old, so that pins it down to somewhere between 2/47 and 4/48, and probably closer to the end of that range. I remember the trolley ride vividly, but not what must have preceded it, a ride on the North Side and Douglas Park "L" lines to connect with the West Towns. All I remember of the zoo was the scrounging chipmunks on the grounds.
Not really transit, but I also remember the 1948-49 Chicago Railroad Fair.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Well, fairly datable, anyway: Riding a Chicago & West Towns trolley car through the Cook County forest preserves, with branches brushing against the car, en route to Brookfield Zoo. The line was abandoned when I was 14 months old, so that pins it down to somewhere between 2/47 and 4/48, and probably closer to the end of that range.
Wait - you can remember something that took place when you were 14 months old (or less)? I don't think that's possible for anyone.
The nation's oldest subway system began 102 years ago today, on September 1st, 1897. Back thethe system was a lot smaller, for today there are four subway lines (some parts are streetcars), several commuter rail lines, Ferries, and the mattapan extension which features PCC Trolleys.
Also, more of the Type 8's, the tenth-generation green line trolley's which are low-floor cars, continue to have more service on the D (Riverside-Lechmere) line. So far five or 6 cars are in service, and several cars are in acceptance testing too. Over the next year or two, 100 of these cars will go into service on all four green line routes. They will replace the Boeing-Vertol light rail cars, which are 22 years old. These cars have been brought up to perfection too, they are running at good speeds both as a streetcar and subway, and the automated announcements have been re-vamped as well. If any subtalkers make it out to Boston, I encourage you to take a ride on these cars! -Nick
Nick, are you saying the Boston Trolley/subway sustem is 102 years old or the Green Line in particular? Much of the Green line out to Riverside is former B&A trackage that wasn't taken over by the MBTA until the early 1960's.
I think Nick is referring to the subway portion which opened 102 years ago. After all, Boston was the first city in the US to have a subway, even if it was for streetcars.
Nick is absolutely correct! It's the "Tremont Street Subway" that's the oldest portion, from Park Street to Boylston. Here's the CBS News Report I did two years ago on the 100th anniversary.
I had a bad link in the previous message. Here's the CBS News Report.
Thanks for claryfying that, Todd. My aplogies for not mentioning which section is the oldest...but the Park St.-Boylston section is the green line, so I always associate the green line being 102 years old, evewn though many parts of it aren't quite that old. -Nick
I saw a Type 8 in the Riverside Yard when I was in Boston in June. I only got the Boeings/Kiniki-Sharyo cars.
The Green line was my favorite subway route there.
There were Type 8s operating on the Boston College Green Line branch the week of 16 August as the second unit in two-car trains with (I assume) a Kinko as the other unit. I think I saw one or two two-car trains of Type 8s, but since I was driving, I couldn't keep looking as much as I would have liked.
Boston is generally credited with the first North American subway, but there's always the question of whether streetcars operating underground should properly be called "subway" service. Some of the line was converted to rapid transit trains and then restored to trolley service.
Among "firsts," New York's 1868 pneumatic subway always seems to get left out, and hardly anyone celebrated the 100th anniversary of rapid transit in New York in 1968 to mark the opening of the 9th Avenue El. The City and TA act as if there was nothing in New York prior to the IRT in 1904.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There were Type 8s operating on the Boston College Green Line branch the week of 16 August as the second unit in two-car
trains with (I assume) a Kinko as the other unit.
This may or may not be the case. Right now, only one type 7 kinko car (#3682) has been modified with the type 8, and yes, it does run with the type 8 sometimes. Also, the type 8 runs as a single car, or 2 type 8s run together. From what I understand, there have been some problems with modifying the type 7s, but don't have many details on that. All I know is that so far only one more type 7 car (#3622) is being modified to work with the type 8. -Nick
It was the case. I can't swear how many mixed pairs I saw, but I did see at least one, maybe two, mixed sets and some Type-8 pairs. If there's only one Kinko modified to run with the new cars, then there could only have been one and I stand corrected in thinking I had seen two while dodging rubber-tired vehicles in North America's worst city for driving. I didn't see any Kinko pairs, though.
In all the weekend riding on the Saturday and Sunday previous, we didn't see any Type-8s in operation. Are they restricted to weekday use?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
That's correct... there is only one Type-7 currently modified to MU with the Type-8s. (By the way, the Type-7s are made by Kinki, not Kinko.) And they currently only run on weekdays. The latest I've heard is that five Type-8s have been accepted and are in service, and five more are in acceptance testing at Riverside.
The latest I've heard is that five Type-8s have been accepted and
are in service, and five more are in acceptance testing at Riverside.
As long as the New England Transportation website has correct information (which I'm pretty sure they do), this is correct. Also, the 2 prototype cars (3800, 3801) are being brought up to a standard type 8 at both the Littleton, MA and Italy plants that Breda operates. -Nick
My first "trolley" experience was on the Boston Green Line, I remember it and the date vividly: Wednesday, June 30, 1999.
Amtrak and Bombardier held a news conference to annouce that the Acela trains will not be phased in until Spring of 2000, as opposed to within the next few months, as was previously stated.
Jacques Lapare, the North American head of Bombardier Inc., which is building the train with Paris-based Alstom, said that the delay was due to "excessive wheel wear." He added that "This delay is unfortunate but not unusual when new technology, although proven, is being introduced in a new environment."
To blunt the letdown, Warrington announced that Amtrak is on schedule with other improvements linked to the Acela system, specifically, plans to electrify a stretch of track between Washington and Boston to allow existing trains to run slightly faster in the interim.
(source: Associated Press)
Maybe it should be called "decela" instead?
Of course, the word "Amtrak" is often heard in the same sentance as "late"
I also heard that they've got a nasty truck hunting problem - which brings up a few interesting questions:
1)What is the wheelbase on the trucks? I understand the French have had lots of luck by loengthening the wheelbase a few feet.
2)Is there any kind of truck damper? I was under the impression that the TGV has, but doesn't really need them.
3) Why isn't the acela articulated? Wouldn't this be safer and save weight?
4) Does the acela have body mounted traction motors?
5) Will they operate with only the rear pan up, or both up (likely to be a disaster)
6) Anyone want to speculate on how reliable the tilt system will be? I have heard they are sensitive to track variations.
7) Are they going to reduce the obnoxiously long dwell times at Penn, etc?
8) Does anyone here actually believe the "in about 3 hours" NY -> boston schedule?
I believe the three hour number, unless the boaters manage to keep the bridges up in eastern CT so much the trains end up waiting on the track. Boston to New York isn't any farther than Washington to NY, and they manage three hours on that one. Electrification alone should cut the time way down, although AMTRAK may not have enough electric rolling stock without the new trains.
BTW, I believe that AMTRAK should operate the tracks and let competing private companies run trains. On routes like the Northeast Corridor, I believe such companies could make money while competition would drive them to improve service and attract customers.
Explain this...
I was at Marcy on a J Train at around 3. Not far away was a M Train. It got held up on the approach to the bridge. So I thought that there were just alot of trains. When my train go up to the approach, 2 signals weren't even functioning. They were stuck on red. My train had to key them both. Oh yeah, there were still buses on the Manhattan side of the bridge.
I found out that Marcy Avenue is closed late nights. The buses are for service from Essex - Hewes. But still what's with the messed up signals.
On the MTA web site, it says the B39 will still run for free across the bridge and Marcy Avenue was closed (I'm not sure as to why). The B39 has always run there but NOT for free until the WillyB was closed.
Why did the R44s and R46s get new numbers when all the many other cars that were rebuilt kept their old numbers?
9/1/99
I guess it is because the T.A. wanted 4 digit numbers on all passenger
cars,so these cars (44's,46's) would have to give up their 3 digit numbers. I don't think the T.A. would go for placing a zero in front of the 3 digit number and giving these cars a "Boston" look !!
Bill Newkirk
It could be that they wanted four digits for all cars because of the way the information is stored in their computers. Perhaps the three-digit car numbers saved themselves as "333_(blank)" rather than "0333". Four-digit numbers with a significant digit (1 through 9) in the leftmost position won't have this problem.
Wayne
I had heard it was to free up the 100 series for the next generation of cars. If it's not the 142's, it might be the 143's. They did go back to 3 digits for buses after trying 5 digits for a while.
The answer to this was pure laziness. Instead of getting the cars together in order and then placing the link bars between them, they took what ever cars were coupled together, link barred them, and renumbered them. Since there was no way to do the renumbering in the same block of numbers, they started the 5000 series for this. Then they had to update all the maintenance records.
The ERA NY Division recently published the re-numbering list.
Won't be the 142's - there aren't enough free numbers between 100 and 1299 to fit both the primary and option orders - I hear they're going to start these with #6301 and use up the R16, R17, MS, R21 and R22 numbers. As for the R143s, that's anybody's guess, you may have it called right about #100. I'm hedging my bet and guessing they'll start with #8100.
Wayne
What is the latest with these cars? Have any arrived in NY yet and is there a date for when they start to carry passengers?
Your answers is here...
http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/carsrtyp.htm
You have to scroll a little farther down.
I'm looking for NYC subway maps, for the Time Square area. Not the color/cartoon type map thats available all over, but actual architectural/engineering quality.Can anyone point me in the right direction?
Thanks
Anthony
You won't find them on the web. Try the Archives of the Transit Museum or the NYC city planning office or whatever they call it. You'll probably need to do some legwork to find them.
-Dave
I hate to tell you this, b ut the Archives are a terrible place to start. They have no detailed maps.
Pete Dougherty, who turns up in Subtalk sometimes, has a detailed subway track book, if that's the kind of thing you're looking for. It might be in Amazon or BN.
It can be ordered directly from him - see the information elsewhere on this website (or a link directly from this site).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was out on the subway today and covered the Franklin Shuttle Bus as well as the Rockaway Line and the Willy B. Here's some of what I saw.
Franklin Av Line: From Park Place north the line will be single tracked using the former southbound track O-1. The steelwork for the northbound track has been removed from the overpasses. Franklin Av Terminal has a rather nice looking gree overpass. It seems that when the line re-opens it will be necessary to go down into the IND subway station and then go up into the Franklin Av El station.
Rockaway Line: GO in effect , A runs 207-Lefferts 9A-3P. A shuttle runs Rockaway Blvd-Far Rockaway single tracking between Howard Beach and Broad Channel via northbound F-4 track. Shuttle relay on middle K3/4 track at 80 Street.
Willy be is indeed reopenned and looks very nice. Temporary center platform still in place at Marcy Av. Northbound trains still using center track J 3/4 at Essex Street.
Best part of trip was a ride on 7750-7751 on IRT #5 Lexington Av Thru-Exp. Not only is 7750 the Redbird Patriarch but he the oldest operating rapid transit cars in the country in regular service. He looks remarkable good for his age (40).
Least exciting: A ride on the R-68's on the D from Atlantic to Prospect Park. I thought we were doing pretty well at 10 mph until we were overtaking by an escaped turtle from the Prospect Park Zoo.
Larry,Redbird R33
We've already covered this. The only entrance to the Shuttle station or the eastbound IND station would be via a NEW SURFACE LEVEL MEZZANINE. There will also be a part time entry directly to the IND westbound. Nobody will have to go down then up or vice versa.
Yes and I bet his wife #7751 looks pretty good for her age as well. They've been getting the Bondo Squad out for some of these 'Birds where the rust isn't too far advanced, starting with the R33s.
BTW - how many times did the turtle pass you up??? :o>
Waybe
I assume only once, unless the turtle decided to stop and rest.
Wayne: I rode the following consist today on a souhtbound Rt J from Eastern Parkway to Broad Street. R-40M4530-1,4548-9,4524-5 and last but not least R-40M 4460 mated to R-42 4665. I checked and double checked the car numbers. Even though R-40M's and R-42's run in the same train I don't think I've ever seen the two types married.
I did see an eight car train of R-40's on the M but all other J trains were straight R-42's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, and if you don't quite recall the circumstances behind this second marriage, the first marriages for both came to an end with a resounding crash at 6:12AM on June 5, 1995, high above the ground on the Williamsburg Bridge as #4461, her motorman asleep at the controls and doomed to die, slammed into the rear of #4664 at 25MPH, telescoping him a distance of 17 feet and utterly destroying his frame and undercarriage as well as his entire "A" end. #4461's straight nose was smashed back 7 feet or so, but the frame somehow escaped serious harm. What a photo on the front of the Newsday of June 6, 1995, beneath the stark caption "Point Of Impact"!
Right now, #4461 is under the care of the Coney Island Body Doctors, who have grafted the slanted nose of #4260 onto her "A" end, turning the R40M into a Slant R40 and a "she" into a "he". It's nowhere near finished, I hear. The original #4260's carcass lies devoid of its "A" end on one of the CI yard tracks, visible from the passing "N"; the gash in his side is quite apparent where he slammed into the curtain wall near 9th Avenue on August 15, 1994. #4664 is probably lying about out there as well. There's a grisly picture of his shattered face on Page 106 of Stan Fischler's "The Subway".
Once the blind end of #4665 was pounded back into shape (I got to see them up close at Eastern Parkway; you can see where the Body Docs fixed her dent with a neat patch), she was mated to R40M #4460. I don't know if there were any additional modifications made to either unit.
Wayne
On R46s there is a humming sound during braking. I assume its the electromagnetic resistance caused by the dynamic brakes and traction motors.
What kind of braking does the LIRR, MNCRR and NJT use? Dynamic? Regenative?
When the handle of a NYCTA train car is placed in full service does the air brakes also come on or does the air brake stay off until the car reaches a certain speed?
Humming? More like a whine I'd say. It's the sound of torque
being transmitted through the gearboxes during dynamic braking,
like a car moving at high speed in reverse gear.
No regen braking in the current fleets.
When the handle is placed in full service, do the air brakes come
on? Boy, that's a complicated question. Generally, as long
as the dynamics are putting out the requested braking effort,
the lockout magnet valve forestalls air pressure from being
admitted to the brake cylinders. The inshot valve allows a
tiny bit of pressure to bring the shoes up against the wheels
and get them ready for dynamic fade-out. Most of the current
NYCTS fleet has been modified to remove the inshot feature.
On older, now retired SMEE equipment, a supplemental air feature
allowed up to 20 psi of inshot air to the cylinders at full service.
To anyone from Boston or knowledgable:
This weekend, I'm going to Boston for a 2-day, 1-night stay (Sat - Sun). I was there as a teenager, but don't remember much about the transit system.
2 things:
What shouldn't I miss, transit-wise? I mean, is there something about the T you're proud of?
Is it easy to use the T from the airport to downtown (School Street)?
Thanks in advance.
Peter F from NYC.
Not an answer to the question but another question: I own a number of books about NY subways, Els, trolleys, etc. Has anyone seen similar books about the Boston transit system?
There is one that I know of called "The Boston Transit Album". It was published about 10-15 years ago and had lots of pictures from the early years of subway operation in beantown.
I believe it was published by a Boston-area rail-preservation society (I'll look at my book collection tonight and give the pertinent details tomorrow).
Doug aka BMTman
Boston books are few and far between. There is one coming out soon on Boston in the 1940s. Some of the older ones are still available at Seashore or via the BSRA.
There's a few that I know of:
"Change at Park St. Under" - Brian Cudahy (same guy who wrote Under the Sidewalks of NY, but I have never seen a copy-- I have all of these other ones)
"Boston's Main Line El: The Formative Years 1879-1908" - George Chiasson, Jr. (an ERA publication about the original Orange line, now demolished. It's 80 pages and was published in 1987)
"Tremont St. Subway: A Century of Public Service" by Bradley H Clarke and O.R. Cummings (a history of the first subway. Includes photos, track maps, and text. Even has some photos of when the subway tunnel had rapid transit trains in it.)
"From Boston to the Berkshires: A pictorial review of electric transportation in Massachusettes" - Stephen P. Carlson and Thomas W. Harding. (Mostly black & white photos of various trolley systems that once existed in Mass.)
"Trolleys Under the Hub" - Frank Cheney and Anothony M Sammarco (more b&w photographs but concentrating solely on Boston. Better quality photos than the above book)
HTH,
dave
All Good ones and available through Seashore's Store except for the first which is out of print.
There was a copy of Change At Park Street Underat the Fall Trolley Extravaganza last week in mediocre condition for $60. At that price I decided to pass. Both bibliofind and ABE (Advanced Book Exchange) have a listing (from the same shop) for a copy at $50 - at that price I'll still pass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If there's ONE THING not to miss on the Boston T, it's the Mattapan-Ashmont shuttle. From a public standpoint, it's part of the Red Line, but it's operated by the Green Line Light Rail Division. It's one of the few remaining PCC operations in the world. And the good news is that the cars are being rebuilt, and will not be retired soon as we're seeing in Newark!
And yes, it's easy to get to downtown from the Airport. Just take the free Airport Shuttle Bus (#22 or #33) to the station; hop on the Blue Line inbound, and change for the Orange Line at State Street (if necessary to reach your destination).
Thanks for that, I'll be in Boston myself in mid October.
The first rebuilt car is now at Mattapan in traction orange and cream livery with silver roof and red/black trim. An updated version of a 1940s Boston El scheme.
The best rides on the T are the Blue Line and the Red Line plus the outside parts of the Green Line B & C. I also recommend Mattapan-Ashmont for its scenery as well as the equipment.
Personally, I like the tour of the Orange Line to the North. It provides some nice views of the harbor and the city and the Boston Garden/North Station Commuter Railroad Complex.
Don't forget to say hello to Charley if you run into him.
Since the T has no all-night service (and hasen't since shortly after the Kingston Trio's hit), so Charley gets put off when the car/train reaches the end of service.
Sorry, Charley.
Since closing of the Williamsburg Bridge to subway traffic back in May, I have become very accustomed to the variety of subway cars as well as car changes on the A, C, E, J, M, N and Q. Then wham, just overnight (Tuesday night to be exact) everything "seems" to be back the way it was before the bridge closing. From what I was able to observe on Wednesday morning, I saw absolutely nothing on the "Q" except R40 slants. The "A" happens to run by my house (well, the Far Rockaway "A" anyway) so I was able to observe it throughout the day. From what I witnessed, there was not one R32 to be found on that line. I find this to be quite boring.
I was only able to observe the "A" and the "Q". Has anyone seen anything different than what I described above concerning the "A" and "Q"? Are things back to normal on the other lines I mentioned above? What is your opinion on things being back to normal?
I liked seeing the R42 not being a prisoner of the Eastern Division. I will also miss the R46's on the E.
32's on the N this AM.
There were plenty of R32s on the N before the WillyB closed. They are on the C, E, and N lines.
I saw a R-32 set of A trains (207 St-bound) at 34 Street Penn Station last night @ around 7:30 PM.
That was probably a R32 belonging to Pitkin yard.Jamaica R32s that were in Pitkin are back in Jamaica.
While riding across the Willy B yesterday afternoon, I stood near the front of the first car and listened to the T/O talking with another T/A employee through her open cab door. Neither of them had been across the bridge since it had reopened. On climbing out of the tunnel, the train encountered a little yellow sign (same color and dimensions as a GT or ST sign). It said, "Blind Stop." Neither of them knew what it meant. There were several more of them as we went across the bridge. DOES ANYONE BUT THE SIGN PAINTER KNOW WHAT IT MEANS? Is this something new? Why here? Where else? Does the T/A plan to clue in its operating personnel?
BTW: Very smooth ride. Problem signals on the Westbound track had people standing next to them waiving trains through.
[ the bridge. DOES ANYONE BUT THE SIGN PAINTER KNOW WHAT IT MEANS? Is
this something new? Why here? Where else? Does the T/A plan to clue in
its operating personnel? ]
It means that there is a stop arm there, but no signal. In this case, the blind stops are all about 5 feet before the signals. My guess is that this is to provide either some redundancy, or perhaps these are controlled remotely, and are there to prevent key-by or something.
Anyone know _why_ they're there?
BLIND STOP are used with the wheel detectors and a microprocesser to enforce SPEED limits.
Can be conditional on switch reverse moves, where speed is enforced.
I have the control lines for the new signals on the bridge done by F & V Electric and Union Switch & Signal. There are blind stops on that contract for the wheel detector. I will explain it use on Subtalk tomorrow.
BTW, the wheel detector system is used on bridge for moves into the middle (only) at Essex Street Station from J2 track.
Am I the only person in Manhatten who everwants to go to Mineola after 6:39 a.m. but before 8:15? Does LIRR "management" know they don't have a single Eastbound train through Mineola for over an hour and a half? If not, why not? If so, who is responsible and how do I find out where he/she lives?
[Am I the only person in Manhatten who everwants to go to Mineola after 6:39 a.m. but before 8:15? Does LIRR "management" know they don't have a single Eastbound train through Mineola for over an hour and a half? If not, why not? If so, who is responsible and how do I find out where he/she lives?]
Thank the fact that the line through Mineola has only two tracks. Both of them are used for westbound service most of the time during a.m. rush, thereby limiting reverse-commute service.
There's a train that gets into Garden City (on the Hempstead branch) at 7:40 AM (leaves Penn at 6:55 AM). Depending on where you were headed from Mineola station, Garden City is not too far away.
On a side note, I'd have thought that there wouldn't be that same service gap eastbound on the Hempstead branch (90 minutes between eastbound trains) during the morning rush, since they don't use both tracks westbound, and the single track section probably isn't more than a mile long. I was surprised to see such a long gap in service.
Walk over on 7th Street from Hilton to Franklin Avenue in GC to get the N15 bus to Mineola. Goes right to the station, maybe a 7-minute ride. On a nice day, it's a nine-block walk from GC to Old Country and Mineola Blvd.
Wayne
I wonder if the third track that is currently under construction between Mineola and Merillon Ave. might allow an extra eastbound train during that period of the AM rush?
[ I wonder if the third track that is currently under construction
between Mineola and Merillon Ave. might allow an extra eastbound train
during that period of the AM rush? ]
I thought about that too. It could be, in effect, a passing siding for Eastbound traffic on 2 track. With the current situation, in order to get one eastbound in, you have to reverse the direction of traffic pretty much from Divide to Queens. I'd guess that run is about 15 minutes. To get another westbound on it again, you have to change directions again. Each time you change direction, you effectively can't have anything enter the block for 15 mins. So, to stick in one eastbound means that you have to stop westbound traffic for 30 minutes. Hmm, this still may not be clear. An example. Westbound traffic on 2 track. Last train leaves hicksville at 7:30AM. It gets to Queens at 7:45. Eastbound leaves Queens interlocking at 7:45. Gets to Hicksville at 8AM. Now, 30 mins later, the next eastbound can leave. Of course, I left no lee-way at either tower, and the 15 minutes is an estimate (don't have a TT in front of me). if it's 20 minutes, there's a 40 minute penalty.
Anyways, using the mineola siding, you can sneak things in there, with much less penalty. The penalty in that case, is basically 2 times the longest trip time, whether that is queens -> nassau, or nassau to divide. I won't give an example here, but it would end up working just like the above, except that the eastbound can hide in the siding to let a westbound pass.
Now, whether they'll do this, or instead just use it to turn around O.B. trains, I dunno. I figure they'll opt for the latter, since the former would amount to an increase in service, and most would agree that the latter is a decrease.
Although this is just a guess, I'm pretty sure the
new track is just for Oyster Bay trains.(or maybe to
layover trains) I don't think the railroad will go
through all that bother just for the reverse
commuters. Going back to 2 direction tracks at rush
hour would make more sense. After all, there isn't
too many trains on the wrong side to begin with.
About 4 or 5. At least during the PM rush. By the
way, looking at my timetable during that period (AM
rush) a train arrives at Mineola at 6:39 then 8:15.
That really isn't that bad anyway (1hr 36 min)
considering its reverse commuters. During the PM its
5:38 and 6:44 (1 hr 6min)
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If more of you hicks from the sticks would stay where you belonged, we reverse commuters wouldn't be treated as second class citizens. "Considering it's reverse commuters," indeed. We also have to get where we're going, when we have to get there. The nerve of some people.
As for taking the train to Hempstead, it's faster to take the F train to Hillside Avenue and the Long Island Bus to Hempstead.
I didn't mean any offense to anyone on my posting. I should have said "considering the lighter ridership". I have worked 4x12's for as long as I can remember so I am sort of a reverse commuter myself. Sorry if you took offense.
Well, here's another one for you. I take the 5:00 PM from Port Washington to the Broadway stop every day (I work in Port Washington). Frequently, abt 3-4 times a month, that train is cancelled because the eastbound train hasn't made it into Port (the PW line is single tracked from Great Neck to Port Washington, a blunder that hasn't been addressed since 1898, when the Great Neck-PW leg opened).
Anyway, when the 5:00 is cancelled, the next train, the 5:23 express, usually becomes a local and stops at each station, and I can get off at Broadway. But sometimes, inexplicably, the dispatcher decides to keep the 5:23 as an express despite the fact that the previous local has been cancelled. Gotta get out at Broadway? Sorry, pal. As it is, Broadway has no service between abt 5:20 and 6:30 PM-- a 70-minute stretch -- but on the days when the LIRR plays games, it has no service for about two hours.
Additionally, in the mornings, there are no eastbound station stops at Broadway between abt 6:30 and 8:18. Way too much time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
[ Additionally, in the mornings, there are no eastbound station stops at
Broadway between abt 6:30 and 8:18. Way too much time. ]
I think that's not very unreasonable for Broadway, compared to other places. Mineola could use better reverse-direction service, though.
On the other hand, The oyster bay doesn't have any eastbound service between about 1:30AM and 8:30AM (Roslyn Arrival time). It makes it all but impossible to commute in that direction, because there's no way in any earlier.
On those days Kevin, if the train stops at either Little Neck, Douglaston,or Bayside (Bell Blvd) its only a short walk to Northern where you can take a bus W/B.
>>>>On those days Kevin, if the train stops at either Little Neck, Douglaston,or Bayside (Bell Blvd) its only a short walk to Northern where you can
take a bus W/B. <<<
Yes...I do that at Bayside or Great Neck...but it's an extra $1.50 I shouldn't have to pay.
Can you take the bus all the way? I don't know about LIBus service so much.
LIBus is pretty much a joke service; they assume everyone drives, which is true, so it's a bare bones operations with the lines I take shutting down at 8; some of 'em even shut down at 5:30 on weekends.
[LIBus is pretty much a joke service; they assume everyone drives, which is true, so it's a bare bones operations with the lines I take shutting down at 8; some of 'em even shut down at 5:30 on weekends.]
Suffolk Transit is even worse, with no service at all on Sundays and major holidays.
I guess you could take the N23 from Port Washington to Northern Blvd and change for the N20 to the Broadway Station. But bring a copy of "War & Peace" or the "Rise and Fall of The Third Reich" plus a newspaper. When you finish one of those books at the Nassau/Queens border you can read the paper the rest of the way!!!!By the way, getting back to the original thread about Mineola, someone mentioned getting off the Hempstead Line @ Garden CITY. I'M sure you can find a bus North to Mineola. In any event if you take the train to Hempstead the N22 goes to Mineola from the terminal across the street. Not a long ride either. All you need is a pamphlet to read!!
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This morning I rode MBTA commuter rail train #806 (origin Providence) inbound from Mansfield to Boston/South Station. It's express from Mansfield to Back Bay (peak direction, rush hour trains continue to use the Main Line during construction). I had a great view standing at the railfan window of the control cab car. The consist was seven Kawasaki bi-levels, one MBB car (it's the one with restroom) and a GP40MC pushing.
Max speed was 86 (yes, eighty-six!) miles per hour going through Sharon Station, and again along the Southwest Corridor from Readville to Ruggles. [I find that speed amazing, given on my 'home' route, the Lowell Branch on the north side, MAS is just 65.]
There's full wire up over both tracks from Mansfield to Readville Junction, then just hardware in the air inbound to South Station. There's a lot of work to be done... possibly also contributing to the many-months delay in Acela service announced by AMTRAK yesterday.
They are wired on one track almost down to New Haven, and I've heard that the power is ON in Rhode Island!!!
A MAS of 86 is pretty cool - but the 90+ that MN does peak through larchmont is even more fun. I didn't believe it at first - then the engineer poped the door to the cab open - "come here for a second" I did "See? 90" Cool. I've clocked a few expresses at 95 or so. I wish I had the $$$ to take the Metroliner to DC, if only to experience it before it goes away!
Yeahbut... the 86 on my train this morning was on a diesel-pushed consist, not MU electric!
That's still not too shabby. Even the R-10s couldn't go that fast.
how about 105 in metroliner mu bewteen phily and newark? only a $4.00 surcharge!!!
On the first revenue Metroliner South(RR west) from New York, we hit 124 (Jan 1969) Gnarly!
Do I hear 150? Going once, going twice....
how about 170 mph in a moony 201 at 5500 feet over long island sound
Sold!!!
Taking a trip to Boston and Marblehead in October. One of my favorite towns, and I'm there every other year, just about. I usually stay in Brookline, so I'm familiar with the Green Line pretty much.
Anything really notable from an architectural/historical viewpoint that I should see on the red, blue or orange? To me, the Red is the most 'subwayish' of the bunch, but the Green, being the oldest and really an underground/surface trolley, is the most interesting.
Marblehead BTW has an abandoned trackway now used as a bike/footpath. At one time, there must have been a train stop there. Anyone know?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, my favorite line is the Green particularly the Riverside branch.
I always try and visit Boston in the fall while taking advantage of the beautiful change of the foliage as I drive up through Conneticut(but when in Boston the car gets put in long-term parking, and I take mass transit to get around town).
The finishing touch on my New England trip is the annual drive north on to visit the quaint, but eerie town of Salem. I have never been there in time for their famous Halloween festival, but heard it even rivals the Greenwich Village parade! (Many Boston area hotels are booked as far in advance as August for the Salem Halloween celebration).
Doug aka BMTman
>>>The finishing touch on my New England trip is the annual drive north on to visit the quaint, but eerie town of Salem. I have never been there in time for their famous Halloween festival, but heard it even rivals the Greenwich Village parade! (Many Boston area hotels are booked as far in advance as August for the Salem Halloween celebration). <<<<
I booked a room in Salem in May, got up there, and the deluge began. After an hour trying to walk around, and knowing the forecast for the duration of my stay wasn't much better, I said !@# this and went back to Flushing. Learned my lesson--visit in the fall!
When I am in Marblehead, I may take a bus over and visit Salem for a couple of hours again.
Take the Red Line to Ashmont, then board a PCC car for the wonderful Ashmpont-Mattapan high speed trolley. Maybe a 12 minute ride, but private r.o.w, quaint station stops, and unique terminal stations at both ends. Once the Newark PCCs depart, these will be the only PCCs left on the east coast.
Return to central Boston and take the Blue Line to the end of the line (Suffolk Downs). Another unique line - a conventional high platform MU subway, but the cars switch from 3d rail to overhead once the tracks emerge from tunnels and travel on the surface. The surface r.o.w. is the abandoned route of the old Boston, Revere Beach and Lynn RR, which quit around 1941.
The Orange Line is really a new route that replaced its older, predecessor elevated routes in the 1970's and 1980's, with the exception of the central Boston tunnel under Washington Street which dates from 1908. The route from Back Bay to Forest Hills is unusual because it parallels the Amtrak northeast corridor.
I agree with Andy that the Blue line is a must for railfans. There are transverse cabs, but windows so the railfan can watch the tracks and the operator. It is also quite a pretty ride.
Take the train all the way to Wonderland. The last few stations on the line (after Orient Heights I think) have all been recently redone and are looking very nice. Some nice ceramic tile work at Beachmont.
The red line is rather boring for the most part, but do take it up to Harvard. You get a nice ride accross the Charles River and the underground bus / trolleybus loop at Harvard station is interesting. It is also a very interesting area to walk around. As mentioned earlier the Mattapan - Ashmont trolley is a railfan must.
The Orange line is not very interesting from a railfan perspective. But when I was there in late July, they were putting up wire over the commuter rail tracks which parallel the orange line tracks south of downtown.
And do go to Salem. It is a pretty town. And I noticed that in one part of town there were streetcar rails popping through the street.
So it looks like the Red Line to Mattapan-Ashmont and the blue line north to Wonderland are the ones to see. Does the red line hit any tough neighborhoods in its southern stretch?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Digressing a bit ... I was looking at the MBTA web site today and they have information on each station on the line. Some (bot not all) of the station descriptions have photographs, a couple of scrolls down so you don't see them when the page first comes up; a lot of them are exterior shots but some are of the equipment.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Red line is pretty safe in the southern area. My last trip to Boston I stayed at a hotel, I forget what town exactly, but the closest stations were Quincy Adams and Quincy Center (that's "quinzy" for you out of towners). Very safe.
Check out our Boston pages for some line-by-line guides and pictures.
-Dave
You get kind of jealous when you read about all the construction they're doing in Boston. Moving the Central Artery and green line underground.
We'll be debating the 2nd Avenue subway for five years and then we'll get a half a!@#d solution. They're still not sure we'll have a new Penn Station yet, either.
Just do it...
Elect Tip O'Neil and you can have anything you need. Oops he retired.
He also died.
Oh, well
You are right but Tips tap is still flowing $$$ to Boston
My advice about the red line, stear clear of like the ashmont line. it goes through some rough places if you are a tourist. like if you down blue hill ave, well that's meaningless if you aren't from here, you hit mattapan square. it's where the light rail starts. And ashmont isn't a great place for tourists either. If i were a tourist, i wouldn't want to be there. the braintree line is harmless after jfk/umass.
In march, i was with my father and we were driving from a party on ave. U and we had to get to near court street. my father's friend told us to go down ocean parkway. We went down ocean ave because we saw ocean and figured we were right. My dad is the biggest greenhorn anyway. so we were driving along and ended up in the middle of flatbush. it's kinda the same thing. except we were in a car as opposed to a subway.
Thanx,
Matt
I'm planning on driving to the Quincy Adams station (looks from the map like it has good freeway access) and taking the red line in to town. Any information on the parking situation there? Web site indicates there will be a charge, but does the garage fill up at a particular time or can one just show up, pay, and park whenever?
Thanks in advance for any help...
I'm not sure if it fills up on weekday mornings, but I've never had a problem during the evening or on a weekend. The fare is $2.50 to park. By the way, Braintree, a few exits further south on Route 3, has a large garage as well.
The southern garages and parking lots next to the Red Line Stations do fill up fairly early on weekdays, especially the largest and southernmost one in Braintree. It receives cars from the South Shore and Cape Cod. The North Quincy and Wollaston ones may be better but after 8 AM it is often dicey.
Weekends...no problems.
By the way, a new hotel has opened in the past couple of months within walking distance of the JFK/UMass Red Line stop, the first above-ground station on the Red Line. There is a low price Suisse Chalet motel that is farther away , but they do provide shuttle service to JFK/UMass.
I still think the best hotel in Boston for transit fans is the one adjacent to Riverside yard in Newton with rooms overlooking the station and complex, as well as being directly off I-95 at the Grove St. (Newton) exit.
The JFK exhibit neasr UMASS is definitely something you must see while visiting Boston.
Also, if you are a serious brewery-tour aficianado, I highly recommend the Samuel Adams Brewery Tour. I forget the stop, but you can get there by taking the Orange line southboud (I recall it is a stop or two away from Roxbury -- a neighborhood associated with high crime stats -- but I had no trouble going there during the daytime.
Maybe Todd can give better details on stations, etc.?
Doug aka BMTman
I noticed another post about the Transit Musuem's Archives, I am planning a trip back to NY for the Thanksgiving holiday and was wondering what the policies are? And what type of info is in the archives? I am mainly intersted in streetcar and elevated info for modeling purposes
Thanks
If the Transit Museum follows through with their current plans the Museum, including the archives, will be closed for renovation at that time. Although no definate dates have been announced, as far as I know, it will be closed for approximately six months beginning in mid-October.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Here's the link to the official AMTRAK press release. Note they allege that electric service will begin in the NYC-Boston corridor in January, reducing travel time on those trains to less than four hours.
Too bad. I only go between DC and NY so my trip is only susposed to be 18 minutes shorter. Does anyone know if the Expresses between DC and NY stop in Philly?
What I would like to know is where did the people who designed this train go to school? Based on what I've read in the papers they didn't use any common sense. Who ok'd the final plans?
From what I have read, truck hunting problems are very common on this type of equipment, being operated at high speed. They often need to work this type of bug out. Read about the introduction of any train, or for that matter any large engineering project (Windows 95...) and you will find that many of them encounter a lot of snags as they are being introduced.
I'm frustrated by this too, but put it in perspective. Amtrak tried for a rather aggressive schedule, and their suppliers could not meet it. One could say that Amtrak should have anticipated the problems and padded the schedule. But deadlines motivate people, and if amtrak had scheduled the acela to come on board in March '00, perhaps we would be reading about these problems in December.
At least they are trying to get it right before they bring it out for revenue service. Also, keep in mind that Amtrak is getting penalty payments since their suppliers did not hold the schedule. Don't know if they will cover lost revenue, though.
The real question is whether they will get this problem fixed quickly (probably) and whether other problems will then crop up (???). And will they have real service going by late 2000, as the schedule calls for?
Those who refuse to learn from history...Metroliner history rears its ugly head. The Pennsy jacked up the speed of the Afternoon Congresional in Oct 67 in lieu of the delayed liners. much as ATK has announced the Acela Regional 2 a day meedium speed trains for January.
Currently Metro North FL9 2013 is at the North White Plains NY paint shop being repainted into the full New York Central ligtning stripe scheme. The second unit to appear in lightning stripes will be 2012, not 2007. Both units will operate on a shuttle passenger train during the Peekskill NY 100th anniversary celebration on October 2 & 3. The shuttle train will operate to Yonkers and return. When they are out of the paint shop or a schedule becomes available I'll post it......Mark
Will these 2 FL-9's stay in the NYC lightning stripe scheme after the celebration?
Just got finished looking at the Manhattan Bridge thread. Why don't they run the N thru the Montague tunnel AND express up Broadway? When both sides of the bridge were closed middays in fall 1995, the N ran local up 4th av., and I transferred at DeKalb to a Q going thru Montague and then to Queensbridge via B'way express. MTA should do this for the N...what do you think, or why not?
It has to do with the distance between trains after 57th street. If the N is express you basically end up with the same situation as most of the buses, where there are trains in close succession followed by long delays where no trains arrive at all.
[ It has to do with the distance between trains after 57th street. If
the N is express you basically end up with the same situation as most
of the buses, where there are trains in close succession followed by
long delays where no trains arrive at all. ]
Of course, the latter is the situation that currently exists. That's why they're the never and rarely.
(gee, I'm in a bitter mood this evening..).
Actually it is possible but is challenging for the motormen to carry out. The trains would have a maiximum speed (which would probably be very low) and if they went at that speed the whole way up Broadway, they could come at the right frequencies along 60th Street. But if a train goes just a little too fast or a little too slow, it messes everything up.
The N would have to merge with the R before 57th St. It increases the possibility of delays which would make any time savings moot. The Q, on the other hand, would be a logical choice because it can be turned at 57th St. or continue via 63rd St., which is tied to the express tracks.
You want even spacing of N & R trains at stations all the way from Pacific St. St. Brooklyn to Lexington Ave. Manhattan where they share the same trackage. On paper, this happens with both running local. If you have the N running express from Canal St. to 57 St., the N would have a 5 minute reduction in running time vs. the R. This means is after they come together again at 57/7, you would have both services back-to-back, followed by a gap in service. Same goes for Brooklyn bound: they would be evenly spaced at 57/7, but with the reduced running time for the N, they would be back-to-back at Canal St., followed a gap in service.
Unfortunatley, even running them local all the way leads to gaps in service. Whenever I use the NR in Manhattan going downtown I usually have to wait 7-8 minutes for a packed N train, with a nearly empty R train right behind it.
If memory serves the Sea Beach Man the Broadway Express (Sea Beach in Brooklyn) was an express train. Why they made it into a local escapes me. When I was in New York last month, the West End ran on the Sea Beach express tracks from Coney Island to 36th Street. Why couldn't the Sea Beach do that? It does run express and skips 53rd and 45th Street stops, so I would think it's possible. The Manhattan Bridge work on the south side has taken an inordinate amount of time. Someone should get on the ball and fix that problem because this has gone on for over nine years. I'd like to see my favorite train run express again as it did when I was a kid. Damn! There I go on that nostalgic kick again. But, then again, I have very nice
memories about the Sea Beach---aka Broadway Express that isn't.
You're not the only one who thinks what the TA has done to the Fourth Avenue service is atrocious. But you're talking about a Brooklyn line, and a one-time pride-of-the-system BMT line, and that gives two strikes. Throw in the Manhattan Bridge and you've got a third. Both Fourth Avenue and Broadway have had their night service cut 75% by the TA.
Normal Sea Beach service until the TA started its 'improvements' got you from 59th Street in Brooklyn to 57th Street in Manhattan in 7 stops (6 during the morning rush hour, when they skipped 36th also).
Now it's 26 stops. And they have the gall to say the service is better. Even in midnight hours, you could frequently catch a local you might have missed without having to wait another 20 minutes for the next one. There's also the physical convenience of not having toslide back and forth an additional 19 times with all those extra stops--most riders couldn't care less that it may take only 15 minutes longer or 25 minutes or whatever--they don't like the constant stopping and starting and sliding.
If I were still living in the City, I think I'd try to run for mayor on the platform of taking back our subways and making them a service, not a numbers-crunchers' game.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Well said Big Ed. The fact that neither of us live in the city saves us extra frustration. I have to tell you, though, that while I visited New York I was really ticked off to see what they've done to the Sea Beach. The TA has to be made up of a bunch of morons.
I'm just a silly Broadway Local.
N Broadway Local
9/5/99
Yes Broadway BMT service is bad enough,but I just thought of something.The Times Square station complex is now being renovated. Without express service they can run all serice on a given express track and redo all the tile work on the local platform just like they did at 34th St and 14th St. Try doing that with extra service such as B's,D's and Q's running express because they closed the northside Manhattan bridge tracks.I guess there is a method to their madness!!
Bill Newkirked
If the N still terminated at 57th St. the way it used to, it could certainly switch over south of Prince St. and have a nice express run up Broadway. Since it now continues to Astoria via the 60th St. tunnel, and since those tunnel tracks are tied to the Broadway local tracks, as is the Montague St. tunnel, and since the Manhattan Bridge south side tracks are closed, well, you get the picture.
I have nice memories of the N as well, in particular standing at Union Square and waiting for a train of R-32s marked "N-57th Street" to glide in on the express track. When we got home on one particular Saturday in 1967, which would have been the first or second time we transferred from the Canarsie to the Broadway line, I imitated that N train all evening long.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Now I'm convinced I have a blood brother on this website. Since I'm a little older my memories go back further. The Sea Beach (Broadway Express) used to go from there to Coney Island. When I was a kid a bunch of us would each other from behind and we would immitate different subway trains as we went into cellars, underground courtyards and the like. I would wear a #4 on my polo shirt, which was what the Sea Beach was in the late 1940's and early 50's and I couldn't wait to be up front as ten or twelve of us would play this fun game. I wonder why kids today don't have the fun we did.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Now I'm convinced I have a blood brother on this website. Since I'm a little older my memories go back further. The Sea Beach (Broadway Express) used to go from there to Coney Island. When I was a kid a bunch of us would hold each other from behind and we would immitate different subway trains as we went into cellars, underground courtyards and the like. I would wear a #4 on my polo shirt, which was what the Sea Beach was in the late 1940's and early 50's and I couldn't wait to be up front as ten or twelve of us would play this fun game. I wonder why kids today don't have the fun we did.
In my opinion, having the old system of each system having its own way of naming its lines was to confusing, even when they were separate. For instance, there might be 2 X trains, one on the IRT, one on BMT. You never know which one he's talking about. This system is fine, numbers are A Division, A-H is B Division I, and J-Z is B Division II.
The gap in service I was talking about would be caused by even spacing at the beginning, N going express to reduce running time vs. the R, so when they come together again, the N would be right behind the R. The gap you are talking about is not scheduled. The schedules provide for even spacing. You are talking on time performance for the N which is dismal. Remember the TA runs a paper railroad! Based on your senario, in that case that particular N should go express (battery run or skip) in order for it to make up some time. In all likelihood, there is another N behind that empty R which can pick up those passengers desiring the N at the local stops.
Sorry Bill but your idea will never fly and you know why? Because it makes some sense. I couldn't believe the lapses in time and passenger service when I was in New York last month. Some R trains in Brooklyn were empty while the N (my personal favorite) was packed to the gills. Why's that? Doesn't anyone have any sway over the TA? They must have some people on it that have a modicum of intellegence.
The people I really feel for are those of us online who live in NYC and have to deal with all that nonsense. Maybe the best deal for the TA would be for all of us to "get a rope".
Thanks everyone for info and opinions! Another question: when the 63rd St. tunnel is connected to the Queens Blvd. line how will B'way local and express service be impacted?
Again, thanks.
Apparantly, not much at the beginning. The E/F will likely remain as they are in Queens, the N will still go to Astoria and the R will go to Continental just as they do now, while the Q will replace the G as the local in Queens and then run via 63rd St. to Brighton Beach.
When (and if) they get the Manhattan Bridge reopened, then there may be some changes in both Broadway and Sixth Ave. service.
That doesn't make much sense - the Q would be express in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and local in Queens, and the F would be local in Brooklyn and Manhattan, and express in Queens, with both trains running on either the same or paralell lines the whole way! Isn't there some way to rationalize the system, so that you don't have the trains switching roles?
subfan
Your asking for rationality out of the MTA?
When they built the 63rd St. tunnel, the idea was to tie it into the LIRR and run a super-express to either Forest Hills or Jamaica. When that fell through and they were stuck with the tunnel to nowhere, they came up with the idea of tying it into the existing Queens Blvd. line. The only problem is the track layout allows only Sixth Ave. local trains through 53rd, while local or expresses can go through 63rd. At the other end, the new tracks will connect with both the local and express, but moving the F to local service would cause unnecessary switching delays at Queens Plaza, unless both the F and Q are run through 63rd St., and the 53rd St. tunnel is left to be served only by the E train.
Do that and the Q could run express in Queens and Manhattan and the F could run local in both boroughs, but you would screw the G riders even more than planned, since they could only use the E for the Court Square transfer, while QP would be served by just the E and R lines.
I don't know - would switching problems at QP really be that bad, since the G wouldn't stop there any more? The R would be the only train that would be "cut off" by an F switching to the local tracks, so any delay shouldn't be that bad. Also, by running the F local, G riders wanting to continue via the Queens Blvd. local would only have to make one switcc once, not twice.
Hey Subfan---your frustration sounds very familiar to me because I have the same feeling. The Q and the F switching between local and express expresses perfectly why the TA has to be run by a pack of morons. There is still no due date for the completion of the Manhattan Bridge work and the Sea Beach (Broadway Express) is not an express in the locality where it's called the Broadway Express, namely Manhattan. By the way, I spent 25 minutes last month waiting for the N train in Brooklyn while five R trains came whizzing by. What's the story on that? I'll bet the TA doesn't have a clue why this happened nor to they seem to give a damn. Whose idea was it to
create this monster in the first place?
Just got finished looking at the Manhattan Bridge thread. Why don't they run the N thru the Montague tunnel AND express up Broadway? When both sides of the bridge were closed middays in fall 1995, the N ran local up 4th av., and I transferred at DeKalb to a Q going thru Montague and then to Queensbridge via B'way express. MTA should do this for the N...what do you think, or why not?
(P.S.: If this gets posted twice I sincerely apologize.)
Apology accepted.
The other day, I had the opportunity to go east early, and I happened to end up taking 660 from Penn to Jamaica. I thought, hmm, I think this is the Bilevel train, but it turned out to be served by a MU train.
The bilevels met us in Jamaica. People asked the crew what happened to them, but the crew didn't seem to know. I'm guessing it's the typical 3rd rail power collection problems..
Anyways, what I did notice, though was the condition of the C1 coaches. Firstly, they were a toaster oven. Hot as heck in there. Almost as hot as the set of Metra Bilevels I boarded at IRM, when they had been sitting out in the sun all day, with no power, when it was about 100F outside. (okay, not _that_ hot!).
Besides that, they were filthy. I don't mean filthy like the MU cars, but positively nauseating. The stairways had so much dirt on them caked up that you couldn't even recognize the material underneath.
Is that what awaits us with the C3's, once the smell of new vinyl wears off?
I remember what the C-1s were like from their maiden voyage (during hurricane Bob no less!) and what the C-3s are like now is what the C-1s were like then. Quiet, clean, smooth riding. Not that the C-1s aren't quieter than what they replaced but they are certainly noisier now than they had been many years ago.
As for cleanliness, I've already seen some C-3s that are absolutely disgusting. Not from trash left behind by lazy commuters but the floors were just downright muddy from rainstorms - two weeks earlier. At least the C-3s can be put through the car washers to keep the outsides clean. Everytime they did that with the C-1s they were out of service for a few days until they dried out!
Occasionally (OK, maybe more like REGULARLY) MUs are used to bring passengers to Jamaica where the C-1s are waiting. The unnofficial word I've gotten from Morris Park employees is that when the engines need to spend time in Morris Park they often won't make it back to Penn in time for their regular trip without delaying other peak eastbound service.
Funny thing about the prototypes. They still need maintenance (oh boy do they!) but they must be able to run their scheduled routes since there is no other suitable equipment to take their place (hopefully this is to change in another 2 weeks or so). I've seen them deadheading from one end of the line to the other all the time overnight just for maintenance. Hopefully this too may stop with the recent opening of the new Port Jeff yard & maintenance facility.
The Arrow and Comet coaches have controls like elevators?
Turn the handle to the left to go back and right to go foward.
There is only one brake handle for air and dynamic?
I used to remember if I am correct that there used to be two holes under the speed controller. What are those holes for? I always though
they were key holes.
Where is the deadman on these cars?
I know on NJT Arrows they do have as you have said elevator type controls....left for forward and right for reverse....As for the Comets (mainly CometIV) they possese the throttle which the operator pulls back for forward and probably a switch (I haven't noticed it) for reverse. On the Arrows the brake is on the right and the TO pulls it towards himself (it hinges horizontally and moves in a counter-clockwise motion)I belive the dynamic and air brake are both operated by this handle..on the Comet it's placed next to the throttle on it right, it's moved forward to apply them and like the Arrows i belive both the dynamic and air brakes are both operated by this handle. As for the key holes I beleive they are use to complete the circut in what ever cab is being used as the head end. I know there is 2 and at the head end it's placed in the right hole. This is all from my observations and i could be wrong but I belive I'm right. hope this helps
AJ
Arrows are different from the coaches. The controller has
the four positions from center:
Coast
Minimum power
Medium power
Full Power.
Since it's AC traction, the power can be held in first
point. They kept the three point control so they could
stil be MU'd with the older Arrow II's
Center is off, and is also the deadmans position if the
brakes are released, and you don't have your foot on the
deadman's pedal. Moving the controller to the right gives
foward power and to the left reverse.
The plug holes are for control, without it the cab signals
and radio, etc. won't work. Not to mention the motors.
The second plug hole is for overloads, but only for DC
cars. The Arrow III's re-used he old controllers, even
though they are AC, so the reset on them does nothing.
The plug looks a little like the R-9 electric brake plug, and hangs from a chain connected to the controller handle.
The brakes are combined electro pnumatic/dynamic.
operation of the valve is a lot like the subway, except in
that it's a standard RR type brake pipe reduction system.
It's even the same handle as ours. When I was a car inspector there, I used my old TA brake handles to be different. The rubber was blue or black. NJT gave out ones with red rubber.
For emergencies, the N2a coupler has an adapter to MCB (knuckles) and there is a hose with a glad hand for the brake pipe. Any diesel can pull an MU train in a pinch. ALP-44 for that matter.
The Comet's are different. They have a throttle with 8 points and are meant to MU control standard locomtives. Idle at the window, puling toward you increases power. There is an "ignition key" of sorts. It also controls Fwd/Rev, as well as cab signal, radio, etc.
The braking is remarkably similar to the pre war transit equipment. A direct release brake pipe reduction system. The Comet has the same type valve as the diesel, and consequently the same handle. It operates as a non self lapping valve. Bleed a little BP pressure. Lap. Vent a little more, lap. Electric holding, and relase to graduate off to a stop.
Hope this answers yor question.
I might add, the controller is almost identical to the older PRR MP-54s MUs, the LIRR MP-54s, and the Septa equipment. Minor diffs is that the LIRR ones were modified at some point to use a handle for cutting the controller in, out, and resetting it. Also, the MP-54 will dump the brakes if the handle is let go, no matter what, and there is no over ride pedal. The interesting thing is, the MP-54s were Westinghouse or Brown Boveri, and the Arrows were equipped origionally with GE (but are now ABB). The handles for each are diferent, but interchangeable (the older ones fit in the newer ones, and hopefully vise versa).
It's not a particularly common controller type, I'm only aware of ex PRR equipment and a few BMT cars that use it.
[It's not a particularly common controller type, I'm only aware of ex PRR equipment and a few BMT cars that use it.]
The Reading Company MU cars used the same type of "elevator" control handle that the PRR MP54's used. The location of the controller was to the left side of the engineman and the brake handle mounted to the right of the controller stand.
On the old RDG MU's, holding down the controller handle was not necessary if the engineman had his foot on the dealman petal. The holes, as mentioned before, were for setting/resetting the control. There were two holes located directly down from where the control handle fit in. When the controller was slipped into the controller, there was a wing-nut that you turned to hold the controller handle in place.
Of course, when the Budd Silverliner and GE Silverliner equipment came along, the same same control was used.
I have a set of tools, controller and air-brake handle, along with the control plug, in my collection. I was fortunate enough to be a friend with a Reading Company engineer, who before he passed away, made to me a gift of one of the sets he had in his possession. He kept the set that had been his fathers and passed on to me the set that had been his.
I know that the RDG required each engineer to pay a deposit on a set of tools when they were "loaned" to the man. As I recall, it was a quite hefty sum in those days, for some reason $100 sticks out in my mind. I guess there weren't many "lost" sets floating around because of this.
Jim K.
Chicago
It's not a particularly common controller type, I'm only aware of ex PRR equipment and a few
BMT cars that use it.
I know of at least one other oddball use of that flop-over
controller: an order of 4 cars for the Fort Wayne and Wabash
Interurban. #504 is in the collection of the Illinois Ry Museum.
The Discovery channel just did a story on the subway contruction project and mentioned a man named Moses Eps,or (Epps)or ?
They said that he lit a candle while sitting next to dynamite and caused the biggest explosion in NYC history..it happened where Grand Central is now.
I can not find anything on the Net about Him?
Any help?
Correct spelling?
Thanks, Mary Kulp
kulphunt1@cs.com
In the A&E show "Empire Beneath the Streets", there is a 15 second segment about the gentleman. They refer to the event as City Hall to Grand Central in 15 seconds. There is also a bit about him in the special TV Show, "River of Steel". In both, they show a semi-humerous video clip about him.
If you could get the book "The Subway" by Stan Fischler it tells the story on pgs 47-48. Five people at the nearby Murray Hill Hotel were killed, 180 injured. Epps escaped with minor bruises and the IRT tunnel wasn't badly damaged. He had left the tunnel for a break after lighting the candle. It happened on 1/27/02.
I asked a question about Comet controls on NJ transit. I forgot to mention something. When I was riding back from Suffern, NY a few years
ago, I watch the T/O operate the train. This is what he did,
First, he applied the brakes
Second, he lag
Third he released the brakes completely before the stop.
The air guage fell to 0 psi.
The brakes held and slowed the train to a complete stop.
Someone said that the brakes were electric hold. Can someone explain the braking proceedure for NJT trains?
Does anyone know exactly how the R110As got into Flushing for testing? I know that the Queensboro Crossover to the N was used, but how else did it get there?
Queensboro is the only crossover from Division B to Division A line. Also we did talk about this post couple week ago.
Peace Out
Meaney
> Queensboro is the only crossover from Division B to Division A line.
No it isn't. Read the faq. http://www.nycsubway.org/faq/interconn.html. Queensboro is however the only connetion between the #7 and ANY other line, of any division, AND it's the only interconnection not in a yard.
> Also we did talk about this post couple week ago.
This much is true. You should be able to find the discussion of this within the last 2 weeks posts.
-Dave
I really apologize, but could someone direct me to the exact posts?
I'm confused - where is there a connection between the 2/5 and the IND where the N line will eventually be reached?
CLick on "Search MEssages" on the main index page, scroll down to "List only messages containing Any of these keywords" and type R110A in the box.
As for how it got there, here's a possible scenario:
1. Depart 239th St. yard south on the 2/5
2. Pass thru 125th St., change ends, depart wrong-rail north onto southbound #4 and cross over bet. 125th and Grand Councourse.
4. Head north to Concourse/Jerome Yard, pass thru it and depart southbound on the Concourse IND.
5. Cross over and change ends south of 47th/50th Rockefeller Center. and proceed to Lexington Ave on the 63rd St line
6. Change ends and cross over to south of 57th St. on the Broadway line
7. Change ends and cross over and you're in the 60th St. tunnel to Queensborough Plaza.
There's other ways. Look at the track maps and the FAQ to find them for yourself.
Thanks for one possible combination.
I'll look for others.
I saw just now on UPN 9 News a report saying that the new DE30AC engines (number 417 profiled here) and the C3 bilevel equipment cab cars are distracting neighbors living near the tracks because their whistles are more highly pitched than the old 50's era trains. The report was made in Sayville.
Have any of you heard the new whistle from the outside? What do you think?
There was a very long thread about this topic in the NY Railfan forum in railroad.net. The webmaster deleted the whole thread because the original poster put as his EMail address ThomasPrendergast@lirr.org. The whistles seem much louder and the computer can only do it at one decible level, not like the diesels that can progressively go from soft to loud. Try standing under the underpass at Mineola when the engineer blows it, even at very slow speeds.
[ Have any of you heard the new whistle from the outside? What do you
think? ]
I think everyone, passengers, nearby residents, _AND_ train crews agree that their way too damned loud. I haven't found one person who didn't yet.
According to a LIRR spokesperson, they are investigating the 'problem'. Here's what has been reported so far. The DE30AC and the GP38 have almost identical horns. The difference is on the GP-38, the horn valve is purely mechanical, making the regulation of the air volume possible. On the DE30AC, the horn button activates a solenoid valve, electrically. That solenoid valve is either fully open or fully closed. Therefore, on te GEEP38, the horn volume could be regulated to some extent while on the DE30s, this is not possible. Incidently, the fereral standard is 96db for the horn,, if my memory is correct. Both the Geeps and the DE30s exceed that level.
Isnt the idea of a train horn/whistle to warn that a train is approaching? if people object to the sound of trains passing their propertty why did they purchase in the first place? sounds illogical to me...
9/4/99
Although this comment may not wash with those living close to the ROW or yard, but wasn't the railroad there first before the was built??
Bill Newkirk
this is true the railroads have been around longer than present land owners, so if they purchased the homes or property nearby a railroad ROW and a train is blowing its horn its to warn of an approaching train. So I don't understand all the whining about the noise... would a softer sounding horn do the job? i'm not sure the person walking to close the tracks would hear it in time...
The older diesels can moderate their whistles, so if a train is going very slowly the whistle is very low. However the new bi-levels can't. If you get off a train and walk down the platform towards a crossing the train will start moving very slowly, the engineer will press the whistle and it will scare you half to death!!! I heard it under the Mineola Blvd overpass and it was deafening. I could imagine what its like waiting at a station like New Hyde Park with crossings on both sides.
That's the exact reason for all the complaining - the horns are simply unesecarrily loud.
I ask of anyone who diasagrees - what is a 69db horn going to do that an 85, or even 90 db WON'T?
All I know is motorists who collide with trains and survive say to the newspeople, "I didn't hear the horn. The lights weren't flashing and the gates didn't work". I think some people need a horn that could wake the dead because they play their car stereo full blast.
Usually only the first part of that sentence is true. They don't hear the horn because they are either on their cell phone, playing the steo too loud, or just ignore it. I have yet to hear about a single grade crossing accident where the crossings devices failed. Usually, it's the failure of the motorist.
-Hank
Unfortunately, many LIRR crossings have gates, lights and bells that constantly activate when there is no train approaching, especially after a thunderstorm. After a while, people got tired of the equipment crying "Wolf" and just drove right on through. I tried to report this occurrence at the Covert Avenue crossing on the Hempstead branch and was given a runaround between the LIRR, LILCO, NYSDOT and the Village of New Hyde Park, which takes up the northwest corner of the crossing. This situation continued for at least another week.
One day at the Park Avenue crossing in Huntington, the gates went up and the lights stopped flashing. Immediately, a diesel charged past.
Two cars came within a hair's breadth of being struck.
The moral of the story is to keep ones' ears open for train horns, because the crossing equipment cannot always be relied on. So maybe it IS a good thing the horns are so loud.
In this situation, if the RR and the local authorities drag their feet, I'd see whose attention I could grab at the FRA. They should be interested in failing equipment.
Exactly. The LIRR actually does work at keeping its protection working properly. The problem is that it is an old design that depends on track integrity to function properly. Soil/ground conditions on Long Island do not lend themselves to low maintenance roads and the LIRR is constantly faced with cracked welds, rails, or joiners which could uncover a problem ONLY when a physical train was passing through.
I'm not making excuses but rather pointing out that persistence is needed. While it may not be our direct responsibility to point out the LIRRs problems to itself, it would be negligence on our part if we chose to ignore this. There are constant problems with crossing gates on the LIRR and staying on their case over this one certainly wouldn't hurt.
Then, there are the pranksters (typically junior high or high school students) that just learn how to cause a gate to drop and just HAVE to do it for themselves. Not too smart. . .
Its actually very easy. Just close the circuit between the 2 rails of the same track. If you put a pipe across or eventhe 2 clamps of booster cables the gates should go down.
Reminds me of an incident in Morehead City, NC a few years back. A couple of enterprising kids used jumper cables to bridge the track and bring down the gates at one of the crossings in town to improve business at their lemonade stand. The RR was spending a small fortune trying to figure out what was wrong with the gates until a visiting railfan, down photographing the NC Ports FM units, spotted the kids one day and called the police.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
All I know is motorists who collide with trains and urvive say to the newspeople, "I didn't hear the horn. The lights weren't flashing and the gates didn't work". I think some people need a horn that could wake the dead because they play their car stereo full blast.
I suspect the only fault in train-car incidents is to be found between the car driver's seat and the steering wheel.
You can lead a moron to knowledge but you can't make them think.
That is what we in the tech support field refer to as a 'PEBCAK'
-Hank :)
Be heard 100' furhter away, and thus 5 seconds sooner. (My numbers are not real, but you get the point)
-Hank
That's the exact reason for all the complaining - the horns are simply unesecarrily loud.
I ask of anyone who diasagrees - what is a 96db horn going to do that an 85, or even 90 db WON'T?
CORRECTION ON LAST SENTENCE.
"Wasn't the railroad there first before the HOUSE was built ??
Bill Newkirk
I heard it when a train was passing a trail used as a short cut by teens and it was deafenuing but i agree that louder horns do save live they just make the locals deaf and hey they chose to libve there
They chose to live there before these new trains!!!
The whistles on the old trains were loud enough to save lives. And if they wanted these trains to be this loud to save lives, how come its not nearly so loud in the cab on the other end when the train's going the other way & the locomotive is in the rear pushing??
Dear Sir Or Madam,
I wanted to say I love the riding the subway in manhattan
and quickly getting to my destination.
I can't believe how crowded the subway is.
I was wondering how many miles an hour the train went.
I think the MTA is one of the finest transportation systems
in the world. The people who run it do an excellent job!!
I look forward to hearing from you!!
raffy@optoline.net
The trains are set to go only 40 MPH but it can be affected by a grade.
Actually they really max out at 45 MPH! But I've seen some get up to 54 MPH without a grade!
Trevor
Do you think that this is a letter to a person? I wouldn't expect this from someone whose domain is OPTO line. Which one? I liked the old Franklin Avenue shuttle, or the Dyre Avenue line.
Fastest I've seen is 40-45 on the 2 between 42nd and 72nd Streets. The fastest I've been on anywhere was 75MPH (for a split second) on the Washingotn Metro's Red Line to Glenmont between Shady Grove and Rockville.
The fastest speed I've ever seen anywhere was 85 on a BART train in Oakland.
I was on a Blue line train in Chicago which got up to 65 in the median of the Kennedy Expressway.
Several #4 trains I've been on indicated 50 in the Joralemon St. tunnel.
New York's trains used to go faster in the olden days than they do now. When the R-10s ruled the roost on the A line, nothing could top them. They would roar along CPW at around a steady 50, although it seemed as though they were doing 60. Between Howard Beach and Broad Channel, I'll bet they actually got up to 60.
The A (Broad Channel/Howard) achieves speeds around 65 miles an hour. On than that, most lines travel at top speeds of 50 miles an hour.
I once saw the speed gauge of an R46 train on the R train reach 55 MPH going through the 60th St. tunnel.
To the best of my knowledge, there is no way that R44 equipment hits 65MPH under any circumstances. Not these days.
I hear the A to the Rockaways hits about 45 with a good wind behind it.
Back in the good old days, the motorman on an R10 A train told me he was doing about 55MPH when we were on the "Flats" about a mile before heading into Rockaway. But that's a thing of the past these days.
OTOH - I have heard of trains hitting 55 or 60 in 60 street tunnel.
Come on subtalkers - tell me if I'm wrong.
Absolutley not. I was on an R46 R train speeding towards Lexington Ave. in which the speedometer in the conductors cab reached 55MPH. Those slant R40's really JET between W4th St. and 34St.
even with an R68 if you do the grade timers correctly both north and southbound you could hit 55 mph...
The problem is, the R-68s have trouble climbing up tunnel grades without field shunting. It's like trying to climb a hill in fifth gear.
With all this talk about speeds in the 60th St. tunnel, one can only speculate on how the R-10s would have done. With their speed capability, I'll bet they could have hit 65-70.
What about the R38's, they never reached 55 miles an hour b/t board and howard?
N Broadway Line
Just wanted to let you guys know that we are powered up and running in Red Hook. The # 3 (built in 1897)has been on several test runs this week, on private right of way, and has been given a "tune up". We using commercial AC input power, no generator. Its not open to the public just yet, as were stringing wire down to the temporary end of track, but you may catch us running at the right hour. Dave was emailed a recent photo.
I added the picture to the Brooklyn Trolley Museum photo page, and here it is:
-Dave
MY QUESTION IS !!! ?????
is there anyone out there who has photographed any.....
MEXICO CITY SUBWAY CARS ???
the system was built in 1968 also i would like to know if
mexico city mexico has RAILFAN WINDOWS !!!
thank you very much for this excellent website!!!!
the reason i asked this question is because i never saw
ONE PICTURE of mexico cities subway system.. thank you.
salaam allah salamallah@yahoo,com.
9/3/99
I have a question on some subway signage and need help from anybody out there.Explain the meaning of these signs:
1)Car marker,usually (10) with black background,white number,with two diagonal yellow stripes.
2)Yellow sign in tunnel with letters "WD" and numbers underneath.
Your explanations are most welcome.
Bill Newkirk
WD is easy, there is a Wheel Detector that montiors train speed. I'm sure the WD was in a place where speed is restricted and there are Grade Timers (GT) as well.
And the car stop markers with yellow stripes indicate a train may only depart that station on a green aspect of the leaving signal. Yellow means hold in the station.
Someone asked questions about the use of blind train stops on the Williamsburg Bridge. There are two blind stop added to the Williamsburg Bridge for reverse running only. They are back to back with the normal direction signals to slow trains down by GT on the down sides of the bridge. They are J1-87 back to back with signal J1-88 and J2-136 back to back with signal J1-135. Blind stops are NOT used in a wheel detector application on the Williamsburg Bridge.
I wanted to know if any of our fellow SubTalkers knows if the MTA/NYCT owns one or more of those islands (actually, they're more like atolls) in Jamacia Bay where the Rockaway Line runs through.
There is one fairly large one just south of Broad Channel that leads to the swing bridge.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, AFAIK, under the Public Authorities Law which created the TA, I would be inclined to say The City of New York owns those islands--they were created by dredge and fill when the Rockaway subway line was built.
I don't think the principle of riparian rights (wherein soil deposited by a river or such on your land becomes yours) applies here, since the islands were created artificially.
But I assume since the bottom of the bay was probably city land, so are the islands.
Thanks, Paul. But I should have phrased the question better. For instance who holds jurisdiction over those atolls? With little else on them besides the dual tracks of the A Line and overrun with marshland foliage, I would assume that the upkeep (?) and such would either be that of the NYCT or perhaps even the US Department of the Interior (since Jamacia Bay rests within the greater confines of Gateway National Park).
Any thoughts/answers?
Doug aka BMTman
Not to hawk on this, but an "atoll" is an island formed by a volcano, something these islands do not have.
Now back to your regular programming ...
Actually, an atoll is an island or series of islands arranged in a ring shape so as to contain an "internal" body of water, known as the lagoon.
But I guess the relevance of this to transit is what an old Crusader Rabbit cartoon once mentioned, "Nothing Atoll". Oh yes, the cartoon also involved a castaway singer known as Robinson Caruso.
NO! An atoll is neither of those things. It's an island created by coral reefs that pierce the surface, usually they consist of "real" islands because you would need shallow water for coral reefs to form and go above water.
Atoll is what you pay to get into or out of New York City ;-)
You only pay atoll to enter NYC - the theory being when the cost of living here finally gets to you, you can leave without paying more.
My dictionary says that the coral reefs have to form a near ring that creates a lagoon to be called an atoll. What, therefore, is a lagoon?
Lagoon - n. 1.- a shallow lake or pond, especially one connected to a larger body of water.
2.- an area of shallow salt water separated from the sea by sand dunes.
3.- the area of water surrounded by an atoll, or circular coral reef.
Which brings up the point that the so-called "bays" on the south shore of Long Island (like Great South Bay) are actually lagoons (yes, really).
Do we have an ugly fish-like guy in Great South Lagoon? Yup! Carries off a few clammers every year.
Hey, maybe that island in Jamacia Bay is called 'Gilligan'? ;-)
As dumb as Gilligan was, he'd still be trapped on that island, even though there is a train that would take you off it right there. LOL
I'm just taking a semi-educated guess, Doug ...
Designation as National Park/Seashore/Whatever does not generally affect private ownership unless there is some strong need for condemnation, so I see no reason why the land isn't still city and the upkeep TA.
It could be a little scary, though, if Interior does have jurisdiction. Can you imagine the notice: "Rockaway Line Service Suspended During Seagull Mating Season" ;-)
Doug: The TA built two islands as part of the Rockaway Line reconstruction. By far the larger of these is called "The Embankment" and runs from the North Channel Bridge south. The smaller one that you refer to is called "Sand Island." I think Paul is right that these islands would be City property but it might be a moot point since much of that area comes under the National Parks Service now as part of the Jamaica Bay Wildlife Refuge.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just a random thought; the Dept. of the Interior may own all of the island EXCEPT for the ROW. The city, state, and federal gov't swap land when a project requires it. Forinstance, a road on SI that was recently widened required the DOT to swap unused land with the Parks Dept, so the DOT could expand the road on the former Parks land, and Parks got DOT land that is not necessary for a ROW right now.
-Hank
Good point, Hank. Thanks.
This weekend, tomorrow I'll walk over to Canarsie Pier and ask the Ranger on duty if he is familiar with what jurisdication Gateway has on the various islands and (to avoid an onslaught of definitions) let's say, large landfilled marshes in Jamaica Bay.
Doug aka BMTman
By the way, on the subject of the R110A, are these cars equipped with dual trip cocks on all sides of the car? Otherwise, it would not be possible to transverse the B Division unless you stick an R33 single up at the front. I do know that they aren't compatible, so we won't see that kind of lashup.
-Stef
They're compatible now?
No, no. They aren't. It just something I was thinking about because no one ever bothered to put trip cocks on the both sides of the R62s, or previous generations of cars for that matter (except for the R33 single). The R110A has to have it on both sides in order to transverse the B Division. My question is what do you do with an IRT train that can't transverse the B Division (assuming that R33 singles aren't available)? A set of mainline R33s doesn't have any kind of protection from potential disasters on the B Division.
If for argument sake, the R62s were to go to Flushing tomorrow, they may as well be modified with dual trip cocks. Why didn't anyone think of this before hand? The R33 singles aren't always going to be around, so in the future this could be a potential problem for movement between the A and B divisions.
-Stef
Couple a work train to it or any other B Division train to it.
They put a transition car in front like on a work train with the engine at one end only.
Though last weekend a light engine came wrong rail through Kings Highway tripped the "NO KEY BY" on the Manhattan Express going towards Coney Island. Heck it just slowed down, then continued its slow crawl though the station.
Work crews love Kings Hwy on the Brighton, the Garbage train always stops for a while here (I love the smell early Sunday Morinings waiting for the D). There is a 24hr Dunkin Dounuts and bathrooms (Employees Only, I never see it unlocked)!!!
[ If for argument sake, the R62s were to go to Flushing tomorrow, they
may as well be modified with dual trip cocks. Why didn't anyone think
of this before hand? The R33 singles aren't always going to be around,
so in the future this could be a potential problem for movement
between the A and B divisions. ]
I dunno if nobody thought of this, but perhaps nobody though it needed to be done in advance. It seems to me that adding off-side tripcocks is a relatively minor retrofit -- something that would take about an hour or so per car in labor, plus parts (tubing, brackets, tripcocks).
Also, since the 62's are getting linked up, you'd only have to modify the end cars, and not all the intermediate cars. That alone means that only 1/5 the work need be done for the retrofit. Doing it in advance, just in case you might want to move the cars over would mean that you'd have ended up fitting all the cars, when not all of them needed it, with unnecessary equipment, subject to failure, etc.
They might also bring in a mixed bag of 5 car sets and single cars, so that they can run 11 car trains. In that case, they might end up just fitting the single cars with dual tripcocks, and using them to protect B division movements, just like the 33S's do now. They certainly should have enough equipment to do that once the 142s start arriving.
Thanks for the explanation. It's just my gut feeling that the cars should have come prepared with those dual trip cocks straight from the factory. I don't think that the modification should be necessary, but since no one thought of it, it has to be done.
Did you say mixed bag? You really have a good idea! 5 car sets and singles are a great combination, that's if somebody in the Division of Car Equipment doesn't decide to convert every last R62A that's out there into the ABBBA configuration.
-Stef
It was advertised to the public in 1904 that the subway could take you "15 Minutes from "City Hall to Harlem". I wonder if that is still true today. Also, there were songs written about the subway then.
Speaking of 1904....October 27th is approaching, which will mark 95 years of NYC subway service. Over the summer it was mentioned that the old lo-v train that ran on the shuttle for the 90th ann. will have a repeat performance this time around, but there were also concerns that this may not happen due to worries of vandalism. Any new info, or will we just have to wait and see? -Nick
At least if they do run the Lo-Vs on the shuttle this time, I will be there.
I'm not so sure if you could still get to Harlem from City Hall in 15 minutes, what with the way trains have been slowed down and all. But with only five express stops to 125th St., you might come close.
One such song was, I believe, "Down on the Subway".
Black armbands to mark the end of 95 years of overnight express service above 42nd Street would be an appropriate compliment to the TA's vision of New York transit. (No one has told me that there was a time when there wasn't all-night express service, even during the Depression. Am I wrong? If so, I'd appreciate seeing an authoritative source.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ed; Best information I have drawing from both ERA and the Cunningham History of the system is that all night express service did not begin until May 10,1946. When it did #1 Broadway-7 Av Exp ran between 242 St and Flatbush or New Lots and #4 Lexington Av Exp ran between Woodlawn and Atlantic.
Larry,RedbirdR33
If that's the case, then black armbands observing the end of 53 years of all-night expresses on the West Side would be appropriate.
Isn't the D now the only night express (till next year, most likely)? There's something really strange when the newest and most unnecessary express tracks in midtown Manhattan are the only ones in use.
It's a real shame that the people in the City allow the TA to do whatever it damned well feels like doing. Isn't it obvious that the 75% Broadway (BMT) night service cut is the model for everything? It should be mandatory for every MTA manager and every politician in the City to have to use public transportation (and pay for it) after 10:00 p.m. and all day Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays no matter what the reason for the travel, and then maybe we'd see some changes for the better.
Even if it didn't succeed, people in Chicago at least bitched about the end of A/B express service. And people in San Francisco did succeed this year--they got their pro-people mayor to force Muni not to reduce F-line service in April--those people care about their transit. New Yorkers don't seem to.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
It wasn't the A train that got 24 hour express service first?
--Mark
Mark: Your right with the July 1 date. What we were speaking of was all night express service on the IRT Mains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Found it (Cunningham/Dehart History of the NY Subway, Part III):
July 1st, 1933 ... The "A" train went to 24 hour express service; at night it stopped at 155th St and 163rd St.
--Mark
Was that the time the CC provided exclusive service on the Concourse line?
Yes. The Concourse Line was served by C rush hour expresses between 205th At and Jay Street, and CC locals (didn't operate in rush hours) between 205th St and Chambers St / Hudson Terminal.
On December 15th, 1940, D express service ran between 205th St and Chambers St / Hudson Terminal at all times. CC locals ran rush hours only between Bedford Park Blvd and Chambers St.
--Mark
I wanted to look through my files before posting on the subject...
Anyway, it appears to me that the Broadway Express had 24-hour express service at least from 1924.
No wonder I'm such a subway nut. My birthday is October 27. Fortunately, I was not born in 1904 but 1940. Transpose those last two letters. Wierd isn't it? Well by now you know I'm a little wierd when it comes to the NY subway.
No, not weird. You share the same passion for the subway as do the rest of us Subtalkers.
Steve B 8thAVEXP: Thanks for the nod of support. Perhaps that is why I enjoy communicating so much with you guys on the subway website. I certainly feel there are rabid enthusiasts for the NYC Subway system, but I can't help feeling some of us on-line get a little over emotional about it----like me. But it's still great to be on line with all the guys.
Doubtful for the same reason there's no Lo-V fantrip. Electrical problems, asbestos and no resources to work on them.
--Mark
I took the 1/9 & 2/3 from Harlem to 34th for a dozen years ans 15 minutes is about right.
Mr t__:^)
As many of you may not be aware, Pittsburgh's Port Authority Transit will be removing its few remaining PCC's assigned currently to its 47D Drake line this upcoming Labor Day Weekend. The last scheduled revenue service runs should be this Saturday, September 4, 1999, and will be replaced by a new 35A Short Hills route equipped with new minivan-type bus units the following day.
It was said that the Drake line was averaging about 40-50 riders per day, and the 4000-series PCC's in use were becoming quite troublesome towards the end. By the way, the four remaining original vintage-1700 series PCC's (#1713, #1737, #1745, #1765) were reportedly withdrawn from service sometime after the summer of 1993, and I was very lucky to ride one of them, #1737, on that tiny line in that particular year before it was put into dead storage.
However, there will be a farewell fantrip with the Pittsburgh PCC's to be held by some private railfan group on Sunday, September 5 with the use of two chartered units to cover most of the entire system as possible. I do not have any further details of this trip, so I am hoping to hear from any the SubTalk posters to relay any information of this excursion's outcome (or even the last cars in actual revenue service) after this weekend.
Thanks in advance for any replies on this subject.
-William
I have heard the fan trip is sold out but that is not confimed.
If anyone rode today let us all know how the ride was and share pictures if you have them
Thanks
Joe
My memory had been pretty poor lately, but I still don't think I've ever asked this here before---does anyone know when the bright headlights in evidence on subway cars today became commonplace on subway rolling stock?
How did they install them, e.g., on the BMT standards, were they just bolted on?
Headlights came in during the early to mid-60's, as I recall.
On the Standards, they were bolted beneath the anticlimbers. I seem to recall the Q-types had them below the roof line.
Some equipment, such as the Triplexes, never had them.
The R-21s or R-22s were the first cars to come from the factory with headlights.
Of the R-1/9s, none of the R-1s ever had headlights; the R-4s were divided. The R-6s, R-7s, and R-9s did receive headlights.
R-22s, delivered in 1957 were the first to be delivered with headlights. As for the R-4s, cars 467 - 899 did get headlights installed in 1962.
(Source of the data is "Revenue & Non-revenue Car Drawing Manual" 1998 edition)
Thanks for the clarification. I knew that not all of the R-4s received headlights. Most of the prewar A and D trains I rode on, and there weren't many, did not have headlights. Now THAT was a thrill!
One thing: in Under the Sidewalks of New York, there is a photo of presumably Concourse Yard circa 1972 which features CC trains of R-4s. There is an 800-series car, 810 or 811, which does not have headlights.
I downloaded NYCT's Kings Highway 2000 program. A nice program indeed. It's a good opportunity for someone to understand the mechanics of operating the subway system. Excellent! I've played Tower Operator and turned D trains around and sent them back in the opposite direction. The relay logic is rather complicated (what do those numbers mean on the signal charts?), so I'll leave it to someone like Mr. Train Control to figure it out.
Bernie Greenberg's subway simulator is quite good in giving someone a basic undertsanding of how to keep them trains running. The best thing that his program has and what the Kings Highway program lacks is the cab feature (you know, the Train Operator's view). As a train operator, I'd like to get an idea of what I'm looking at and which way I'm heading!!!!
-Stef
And Kings Hwy lacks the tower, they knocked it down (boo hooo)!!! And put up that box on stilts.
But it is a great game!!
Now only if I can write a layout for Signal Computer Consultants Train Dispatcher.....
I believe it. Movement on the Brighton Line from Stillwell Av to Prospect Park is controlled by Coney Island Master Tower.
Master Towers are the way to go, I guess.
-Stef
Train Dispatchor 2 Is a great game. Write now me and my son are designing the IRT Division. Since I have most of the IRT up and running the only one we didn't design yet is Westchester tower North of Elder Ave and the No.7 Line. I have to split the master towers because Track Builder game only allows 10 Stations per territory. My game have not been donated yet. As so as I complete the whole IRT it will be donated to the plublic.
Here are my following similation Towers.
Bronx
240 STREET- 242 Street to 168 Street.
Moshalu- Woodlawn to 170 Street
239 Street- 241 Street to Pelham Parkway
E 180 Street- Freeman St to pelham PKWAY WPR and to Dyre
WSQ South- Witlock to 3 Ave
Mott Ave- No.4 170 to 138 Street
No.2,5 Simpson ST to 149 St and 138 Street
All full yards are included
Manhattan
137 Street-168 to 103 Street
Lenox Tower- 148 Street to 110 Street
Times Square split as N +S
North 103 Street to 34 Street
South 28 Street to Courtland
Grand Central N + S
North 125 Street to 51 Street
South Grand Central to Brooklyn Bridge including City Hall loop. Note once the No.6 Goes around the loop it doesn't stop at the stations.
Thats the same problem for my Bowling Green Territory.
It covers the No.1 Courtland St to South Ferry
No.2,3 from Park Place to Hoyt Street and No.4,5 from Fulton to South of HOYT.
Brooklyn.
ALL on the IRT Division.
In about a month I will try to donate this to the Train Dispatcher 2 Libery
Hey Dave, Where did you get Train Dispatcher 2 game?? from the store? Let me know where you get it. Thank You
Peace Out
Meaney
Go to www.signalcc.com you can download a semo game. There will also be a order form and then after you order what you want you will get a code where you will download the full game. Check the website for details.
Train Dispatcher homepage: www.signalcc.com
Thank You Dave
Peace Out
Meaney
They have many track districts available, including LIRR, Metro-North, old New Haven, NJ Transit, etc. that might be of interest to those of you in the NYC area. Plus there are track districts from all over the world as well.
If anyone have Train Dispatcher 2 and the LIRR track district, let me know if you'd like a set of LIRR train icons that I drew up for it. I'd be happy to send them along as soon as I get the requests (and no charge of course...)
Sounds great Dave, I've had Train Dispatcher since Commodore 64 days (ver1). Not many people to transit with it, but I do enjoy LIRRJAM and the NEC Trenton.
I look foward to seeing your creation!!
I will hopefully get them up my next mouth. I what to make sure there good enouth.
Where did you get the program from?
Frank
Hi Frank,
In order for you to download this program, you will need hyperteminal that comes with Windows 95/98 to dial the NYC Transit BBS site. The number is (212) 492-8069. Follow the instructions provided by the BBS site to download.
Download the program and tell the SubTalk Community what you think.
Enjoy!
-Stef
You can get it from this site now...
ftp://www.nycsubway.org/pub/subway/software/khwy2000.zip
-Dave
Sorry, I didn't know. I went straight to NYCT's BBS board to download as soon as one of the SubTalk posters mentioned it.
-Stef
Thanks for mentioning my name. Yes, I do have it all figured out. First you need to read the Control Lines. The Control Lines defined which track circuits must be unoccupied for the signal to clear to yellow. The Manipulation Chart is a little more complicated. The X next to a signal indicated all routes that exit at that signal. The Forces and Locks column indicated which switches are operated by the defined route and then locked. The switches involved in these columns is always outside the route or approach signal area. I could go on and on explaining but maybe you should read the help section. What is Flashing Chart or Table. It defines the panel lights that will flash when a switch is locked due to overlap locking and a entrance pushbutton is depressed on the panel which conflicts with the switch that is locked. The signal locking that switch will also flash.
I could go into the relay nomenclature. V is involved with train stops, NVP normal stop repeater (train stop in the tripping position), RVP reverse stop repeater (train stop in the clear position) and many other relays. NWP and NWC indicates normal switch repeater relay and normal switch correspondence relay respectively.
COOL STUFF!!!
Nobody does it better than you to figure this stuff out - Thanks.
-Stef
I recently look over the pictures added to the Chicago transit section and had a question
One picture (Chi67) is identified as Division Station and there is no above ground Divison Station on the Cta or in Chicago for that matter.
There is a Red Line Subway station at Clark/Division and on the Blue Line to Ohare at Division/Milwaukee which is also a subway station. There are 3 station on the Blue Line to Ohare that this station could be, Damen, Western, and California. I could see how you could easily confuse one of these as Division, but no elevated station exsists at Division street.
Those are the only three stations that it could be, because that equipment only runs on the Blue, Red, and Purple Lines. Red and Purple between Howard and the Loop are Elevated, but have four tracks, this picture only has two. The Red is then at ground level and the Purple turns back around on the Loop.
I believe Eric Haas posted this picture. Eric, am I correct??? If you got confused, just tell me what line this picture is from and I can indentify it.
BJ
I just looked at the picture, and it's Damen/North on the Blue Line. The train coming into the station in the picture is a Blue Line train headed for O'Hare, so, as you say, there are only three possible stations on the Blue Line, Damen/North, Western, and California. The buildings in the background make me nearly certain that it is Damen/North.
Incidentally, while there is no Division "L" stop now -- as you say, Clark/Division (Red) and Division/Ashland (Blue) are subway stations -- there were decades ago. On what is now the Brown and Purple Lines south of Sedgwick station but north of Chicago/Franklin L station, there were stops at Schiller, Division, and Oak Streets. (Anyone know when these stations were closed?) The rumor is that they were eliminated because this portion of the line passes the infamous Cabrini-Green housing project and the only people getting on the trains there were groups of thugs who robbed passengers and then got off before the train reached the Loop. Does anyone know if this is true?
I would tend to think that Schiller and Oak would have been cut regardless of the quality of the neighborhood because in the late 1940s and early 1950s, CTA was dropping stations that weren't on main streets, such as Buena and Grace on either side of Sheridan Road station and Grand for its proximity to Merchandise Mart. In my opinion, these moves were service improvements and not cuts because they allowed trains to go faster by stopping only at the busy streets every half-mile (four blocks). These minor stations had low traffic and existed only because Chicago Rapid Transit was competing with Chicago Surface Lines for the same passengers. Once CTA was formed, a rational policy could be followed whereby buses carried people shorter distances while trains carried people faster over longer distances. All this, of course, doesn't explain why Division station was closed despite the fact that Division Street is a major thoroughfare.
Thanks, I'll correct the picture caption for that one..
-Dave
An excellent site to find out about these old L stations is Chicago-l.org. It is usually updated weekly, but hasn't been update since July 23 because the site owner is having problems with his service provider. Though, you can still e-mail and get an excellent responce. I e-mail the site once in a while and ( Graham Garfield is the name of the man who runs the site I believe) get excellent answers to my L questions.
From what I have heard, Cabrini is suppost to come down within the next 5 to 10 years and it will be very valuable land. The CTA is considering then putting an L station at Orleans and another intersecting street, maybe Division. I'm also not sure about between Sedgwick and Armitage, the Orleans stop would be between Chicago and Sedgwick.
I'm not quite sure about this, but Graham could inform you better then I can, just drop him an e-mail.
BJ
PS: Have you visited the Chicago/State Red Line station lately, just wondering how the work is going and what has been completed so far.
[All this, of course, doesn't explain why Division station was closed despite the fact that Division Street is a major thoroughfare.]
In 1949, as John explains, the Northside 'L' had many stations closed. What you need to keep in mind is that the CTA was also in "subway" mode at that time. The State-Division-Clybourn subways was only six years old. CTA policy at the time was to move as many riders as possible to the new route, thus, the North & Halsted and Division & Orleans stations were closed even though these two stations would logically fit into the "every four blocks" rule for subway spacing. North & Halsted was only a 1/2 block from the "new" North & Clybourn subway station. If you ride the 'L' today you can clearly see where the station was located just north of the "S" curve right over Halsted. This station was an "express" station and had island platforms so trains on all tracks could stop there. Today, the station would be welcomed back, I'm sure, by the many residents of the gentrified area of the Clybourn corrider and to the east. For those younger than 40, it is hard to believe that neighborhood was run down and not the best; however, who would have thought that $300,000 townhomes would be built within sight of Cabrini? The Division 'L' station suffered the same fate as North & Halsted, as it was located in close proximinty, four blocks, from the Clark/Division stop on the subway. Remember also, that streetcar service in the form of Lincoln-Wells & Lincoln-Larrabee was still available to the area.
There has been talk, I understand, that the Mart (CTA Headquarters) has gotten a brainstorm to plan a new station at Division/Orleans. This station would probably be added when the rebuilding of the Northside 'L' commences (when or if ever). The station would probably draw some ridership with the new construction going on in the area. One thing to remember is that many of the people moving into that area are owners of automobiles and may not avail themselves to the CTA service. Not everyone thinks of the CTA as an alternative to driving. The group of people who would be riders are being driven out of Cabrini-Green.
Jim K.
Chicago
This discussion of Division Street stations on Chicago's rapid transit system would not be complete without mention of the Division Street station on the original Metropolitan West Side 'L', served by Logan Square and Humboldt Park trains. This service lasted until 1951, when the Milwaukee Avenue subway opened, providing direct service to the Loop, in contrast to the roundabout route on the 'L'.
Does anyone know where I may view or copy the architechtural plans for the Franklin St Station refurbishment??
Don't you mean, Franklin Ave.?
Doug aka BMTman
He may mean Franklin Street (west side IRT). Some local business (as part of a zoning deal, I think) paid for a very fancy re-doing in the early 90's, complete with a street level kiosk on the uptown side.
Yes, Westside IRT.
What's the deal with the new track configuration at Essex St? The Queens bound local track is no longer connected to the bridge track. Is this permanent? What's the new exit-looking thing next to the tower? It looks inaccesable from where it is.
The track arrangement is as always. During the constrution, the old token booth next to the tower was re-opened and a temporary bridge placed across the track. This to faciltate access for the passengers transfering to the shuttlebus.
I believe there will be a G.O. tomorrow to completely restore the original function.
The new RTO pick for the combined IND/BMT went into effect
last Sunday. I decided to pick off the road and chose a
flagging slot.
Being that I've never done this before a few weeks ago,
it's the first time in a long while that I can honestly
say I'm excited about work. Also the first time in many
years that I feel like a rookie. There's so much to learn.
And as usual the TA doesn't train us very well. But
that's another subject.
Today we were on the Wille B. I stood over by the signals
that Dave was just mentioning: J1-87. The blind trips are
there, with signs and all. They were always there, just
now there's a sign telling you. The work is far from done.
But it's mostly house keeping.
The assignment was to babysit some engineers from Capitol
Project Management. They needed to inspect an area where
some steel gusseting sat rather high. It was feared that a
passing contact shoe sitting a little low would strike the
natrually grounded steel and cause an explosion and fire.
They had thought of this before hand, and the area does
have an insulated strip covering it. But Third rail
supervision isn't happy with it, so tonight(now actually)
a contractor, M-Track inc. will take care of it. The TA
will supply the materiel: $10,000 worth of fiberglass
board, and pay the contractor for the labor.
So much for the $3.5 Million bonus!
You guys know me. I don't give the TA any slack. But in
all fairness, they did a good job here. Quality
workmanship as far as I could see. The track was well
assembled. All the appropriate hardware in place: baskets
under the rail joints, all spikes and Pandrol clips, etc.
They even bonded the guard rail. Now I only walked about
half the bridge, so I can't say for the whole bridge. But
bar none, the TA does have the finest track. Our signals
may be antiquated, and our rolling stock, the laughing
stock. But of all the railroads I have worked on, or
ridden, no one beats our track.
LIRR: spiked wooden ties, some concrete. But only
recently. Alignment problems everywhere. Look at Queens
Interlocking.
MNCRR: Ever ride out of Grand Central?
Amtrak? 125 on the corridor, yes. But no guard rails, and
they still have ancient spiked and bolted rail on a lot of
one and four between NY and Trenton.
Now ours aint perfect. We still lag in new technology. We
don't use moveable frogs any where. Our hand throw
switches are rigid instead of the snap type, which can be
trailed through regardless of setting. The yards are
horrendous in some locations. 207th Yard still has it's
1932 track! And why no concrete ties on the Brighton or
out at the Rockaways?!
We still have very few alignment problems, and all our
curves and El structure has guard rail. Most every where
on the main lines is done with clips and continuous welded
rail. Derailments are almost unheard of.
The Willie B is done exactly to these standards. Brand new
quality fiberglass walk way(expensive) makes me feel safe.
I never liked waliking on the old wooden ones.
The rest of the bridge is done with the same attention to
detail. The steel work appears to have been done well. No
sloppy welds. The painting and signage, carpentry, all
deserves a hearty; WELL DONE!
Glad to see good work is possible in a public contract. But the real test is time.
Alignment problems at the Queens interlocking? Hell, ever look at the track at Mineola? The tracks through the station feature rotted ties, mud pumping up between ties in other places, no ballast, ties in mid air....
Or at least did as of a few weeks ago. I saw they were in fact working up by NHP - the number of ties maked with spray paint was amazing - I presume these all need to be replaced?
As for MN - yeah, evrrything leading out of GCT is pretty shitty, though the concrete everwhere else is nice. The platform tracks there are bad in lots of places too. BTW - I've heard the New Haven line has the worst interlockings of their entie system - anyone else know if this is true? Otherwise, the New Haven line's track, like a lot of Metro-North, makes the LIRR look bad.
Talk about bad tracks on the LIRR, from the platforms at Jamaica station you can see some cross-ties that are completely rotted through!
Well, I've started to put together a section about Amsterdam transit. You can check it out here. I haven't had a chance to put in photo captions or write the descriptions of the individual lines but I figured after the recent drama, you all might be interested in what goes on over there. I scanned 100 pictures so far with another carousel and a half of slides to wade thru (told you I take a lot of pictures.) Enjoy!
-Dave
And to think I didn't take a single streetcar photo when I was in Amsterdam. No excuses; I had a 35mm SLR and Kodachrome 64. The #13 line went right by our hotel; I'll have to dig out my trip diary and find the name of it.
I've done some more work to the glossary I wrote up, making it easier to read and navigate. David also has a copy in the FAQ section here, based on mine.
To check it out
home.att.net/~alabianca
As I was browsing through the messages here, a work train came by way of the 2/5 at Jackson Av heading south. Diesel 50 was on the point, pulling four flats, and not one, but two rider cars, RD326 and RD327. The rider cars are converted R12/14s. How often do you see a pair of rider cars travelling together, especially if their consecutive in numbering???? Gosh, it would have made a great snapshot.
This diesel seemed to carry on without too much difficulty.
If there had been hoppers on the train carrying ballast, then we would have seen a pair of diesels instead of one single diesel. As the Transportation Professional pointed out to me sometime ago (Hi Erik), the diesels aren't very powerful. These GE's are not as powerful as their counterparts on a railroad like CSX, but they're suitable for operations in the subway.
-Stef
Out of curiosity, could someone tell me the EXACT GE Model No. Of diesel No.50, foom that, I could calculate the tractive effort and determine its top speed. I own a 23 ton GE switcher and am very fascinated by small Erie products. this number would read like B-B 100/100 4GE747 or similar for an 8-wheel 50-ton unit with 4 GE 747 traction motors, this unit would be capable of producing 25,000 Lbs T.E. at a top speed of 30 mph
I wish I knew, but the only I can say about this unit is that it should only have 200 Horsepower in it's engine. Compare that to an electric steeple cab like GE-ALCO unit #5 at the NY Transit Museum, #5 has good tractive effort (pulling power). This loco has 800 Horsepower. This steeple cab will have no trouble pulling a fully loaded A train of 8 cars (at 75'). Then again, #5 was truly a freight locomotive pulling freight on the South Brooklyn Railroad. It wasn't until later years, that it actually operated as a TA locomotive.
-Stef
#50 - 53 are classified as R-37s. I'll give you the data listed in "Revenue and Non-Revenue Car Drawing" Book.
Diesel engine = Cummins NT380
4 traction motors = 5GE763A2
Turbocharger = T590
Gear ratio = 14.7:1
Total weight = 90,000 Lbs
Cost $79,515 in 1968
No info as to total HP speed or braking performance
On the side, the builders plate lists HP @ 335. Harry used to work Misc. I rode with him many a night. More than two or three cars they have a hard time on steep hills. The electric locomotives are actually stronger.
RD326 was formerly car #5831
RD327 was formerly car #5875
Steve, Do you know what these others were?
IR/OR715, 720, 721, 722, 723
(IR719 = 7444, and OR719 = 7337; are there more OR/IR pairs?)
RD323, 333,335, 337, 339, 343, 356, 359, 361 (These are the only ones I've ever seen; I'm sure there are there more)
RD336 is out there - she is a R15. Saw her last September working on the "B" line center track. She looks ok for her age.
Wayne
Dave, we must be on the same wavelength because I just sent you a tabe for X-referencing cars 1R711 - 1R723, 0R714 - 0R723, and RD317 - RD361 with their original car numbers. Perhaps you can post it as several people have asked me for this info.
Steve,
I just posted it. The page is at
Revenue & Rider Cars
-Dave
Great! I'll mark them all as work motors.
Question regarding RD317-320: are those Lo-Vs? If so, are they still on the property?
Wayne
I sent mail to Steve about that. I am pretty sure they are R44's, not Low-V's, based on some prior discussion here on SubTalk (plus the fact that TMNY's Low-v 5600 was said to be the last Low-v to leave the property other than the 5 museum cars. When I get his confirmation I'll update the list.
AFIK, excepting the WF Lo V @ CI and the four car set, there are no other Lo V's in the system. The 5600 at TMNY, was the last one to leave, following BERA's.
The cars on that list (were) are definitely Low-V's (I found a picture of one of them in RD service) but they must have left the property by now. So the question arises, how many other cars on that list are gone?
-Dave
You can cross off 0R711. R12/14s haven't worked the revenue collector in years.
As for the rider cars, the only car that should have gone to scrap at this point is R22 7338 (that is RD354).
Remember the accident in 1989 involving R62A #2256 at 103rd St? It collided with one of the revenue collectors. If someone knows exactly which Revenue Collector got smacked from behind, please post so note could be made on this list (R716 pair?).
-Stef
Speaking of work cars, what made the TA decide to scrap the wreck/derailment cars E/44 and E/45 R-12 series in the early '90s? Is the TA saving money by bringing wreck tools to a derailment site in a truck instead of the dolly purpose they provided?
I honestly don't know what happened. The only thing I can say was that at some point in time the TA got tired of R12/14 work motors and disposed of them. Bring derailment tools in a truck? Sounds like they wanted to save money. What's happening now with the revenue collectors? Someone had the idea to deliver the goods in an armored truck to some of the token booths at various stations. I wouldn't be surprised if the revenue collectors were eliminated outright. They might be old, but the revenue collectors got some mechanical upgrading along the way, eh? Then why should be disposed of? If it ain't broke, don't fix it!!!!
By the way, I've never seen an R15 work motor. Why is that?
-Stef
[ By the way, I've never seen an R15 work motor. Why is that? ]
I saw a R-15 work car (dunno if it was a motor or just a rider) just about a week or so ago -- I think the friday after the Willy-B opened, on the J line. Can't miss those porthole windows on the doors.
I was actually thinking in the terms of whether or not there were motorized R15s in work service. There are, however, a few rider cars (for operation with diesels) out there.
-Stef
[ I was actually thinking in the terms of whether or not there were
motorized R15s in work service. There are, however, a few rider cars
(for operation with diesels) out there. ]
Have the current R-15 rider cars been de-motored, or is is just that they're never used for traction power.
All rider cars are demotored as far as I'm concerned. These cars cannot run under their own power. For that, what would be the point of having diesels, other than running in territory where power isn't available? These cars (The R Types that is) are heavy. Components were stripped to lighten the weight of the former passenger cars and make it all the more easier for the diesels to get around with their work trains.
-Stef
In the pic of 7459, there what appears to be a Slant R40, behind it. Under the picture, it says that it was at Corona Yard. Is there a Slant @ Corona?
3TM
Fulton St. Transfer to the A,C,J,M,Z,4, and 5 on the upper level. This is a 148 bound 3. The next station is Park Place-WTC. Transfer available to the A,C,E on the upper level. M9, M10, M22 on the upper level. Connection to the PATH train service. Stand clear.......
Caption is probably wrong. Must be Coney Island. But since Jason's not around much anymore, someone else will have to provide a positive ID.
-Dave
There are some subway connections that I wish NYCT had but they don't. However, if you have a daily/weekly/monthly pass, you can do it. Here is my list:
Junius St.(3) & Livonia Avenue (L)
Atlantic/Pacific (2,3,4,5,B,D,M,N,Q,R) & Lafayette (A,C) & Fulton (G)
Court Sq (G) & 45 Rd (7)
Queens Plaza (E,F,G,R) & Queensboro Plaza (N,7)
Broadway (G) & Lorimer St (J)
Bowery (J) & Grand (B,D,Q)
Hoyt-Schermerhorn (A,C,G) and Hoyt (2,3)
Botanic Garden (S) & Franklin Ave (2,3,4,5) (Maybe after construction)
Bway Lafayette (B,D,F,Q) and UPTOWN Bleeker (6)
Any others???
Broadway-Lafayette to Prince Street on the Broadway BMT. The north end of the Prince Street platforms are probably within a few feet of the middle level of Broadway-Lafayette. It will never be built because the mezzanines on the west side of Broadway at Broadway-Lafayette are crew/technical areas that would probably be expensive to relocate and because it is redundent with Herald Square, Dekalb, and Jay-Lawrence (coming to a capital plan soon).
I think this is one of the closest non-transfers of non-parallel lines (as opposed to stations like 50 & Broadway and 49th & 7th or Astor and 8th).
Other possibilities, some of which are redundent with exisiting transfers, would be:
the two Rector Street stations (BMT & IRT)
WTC and Cortlandt Street (BMT)
the two Cortlandt Street stations (BMT & IRT)
Whitehall Street and Bowling Green
Broad Street and Wall Street (Lex IRT) (They are connected outside fare control. )
Broadway-Nassau-Fulton and Cortlandt Street (BMT) (though WTC is just as close!)
How 'bout a transfer from Bway/Laffayette to the Northbound Lexington Av line (Bleeker St). There already is a southbound transfer.
my transit buff page (Now-Vote for Hillary or Rudy)
Junius (3) and Livonia (L) is a natural point for a transfer.
However, if there were to be a transfer from Hoyt-Schermeerhorn (A/C/G) with Hoyt (2/3) then the Atlantic Ave./Lafayette would make things redundant. I would certainly prefer the transfer point at Hoyt since Atlantic is already a congested transfer hob during the rush hour periods.
Yes, when the Franklin Schuttle reopens there one of the improvements is going to be the transfer between IRT (2,3,4,5) and the shuttle via a walkway from the Botanic Garden station to the IRT Franklin Ave. station (westend of New Lots/Flatbush bound trains).
Doug aka BMTman
Aren't the Junius and Livonia stations on opposite sides of the Bay Ridge Row?? There is a pedestrian crossing over there which if I remember my days in the 73Pct was a favorite spot for muggers.
Yeah, which is probably why the NYCT has never installed a transfer point there. Why encourage criminal activity? (Well, they could have a cop or two stationed there during peak hours).
The New Lots Line (3) crosses over both the Bay Ridge ROW and the Canarsie Line (L) -- which runs parallel to the Bay Ridge -- at Livonia.
Doug aka BMTman
As I recall there was a transfer at that point for a very short time in the mid-1980s...discontinued for safety and crime reasons.
They must have used a block ticket. There is no evidence of such a transfer now.......
3TM
Chambers St. Transfer available to the 1 and 9 service across the platform making local stops to Franklin, Canal, Houston, and Christopher St. On the opposite platform, transfer is available to the 1 and 9 to South Ferry. On the upper level, transfer to the M22. This is a 3 making express stops to 96-Bway. The next express stop will be 14St. Transfer available to the F,L,1 and 9 service. Step in, Step on, Step off, Step out, Stand clear of the closing doors.
Is it possible to transfer from to/from the Shuttle if you are on the Manhattan-bound 2,3,4,5 platforms, or is there some other way to transfer from Manhattan-bound platform to New Lots/Flatbush bound platform without paying another fare?
Nick
When the shuttle reopens the transfer will be for both ways between Franklin IRT and Botanic Garden Shuttle. This transfer will be in the mezzanine of both stations.
--Junius St.(3) & Livonia Avenue (L)
I see no problem in creating a transfer there, but, is as someone pointed out, not a too savoury area to be at...
But, it provides open up new ways of getting to where you want to go. (JFK to Canarsie via B15, #3 and L in about 1/3 of time than Airport Shuttle Bus, A and L or Canarsie to Coney Island via #3, "S" Franklin (after sometime in October) and the D.
--Atlantic/Pacific (2,3,4,5,B,D,M,N,Q,R) & Lafayette (A,C) & Fulton (G)
--Hoyt-Schermerhorn (A,C,G) and Hoyt (2,3)
One or the other but not both, one makes the other redundant, but if the transfer was created @ Atlantic-Lafayette-Fulton, that would make a whopping 13 subway lines stopping at that hub, even more than Times Square (at 11 subway lines)
--Court Sq (G) & 45 Rd (7)
--Queens Plaza (E,F,G,R) & Queensboro Plaza (N,7)
These two are probably redundant because of 74th/Broadway.
Botanic Garden (S) & Franklin Ave (2,3,4,5) (Maybe after construction)
--Bway Lafayette (B,D,F,Q) and UPTOWN Bleeker (6)
Was there a crossunder that may have been sealed off between Uptown and Downtown at Bleecker? How easy is it to create one?
--Broadway (G) & Lorimer St (J, M)
--Bowery (J, M) & Grand (B,D,Q)
Two of the most benefical ones to make...see nothing wrong with either one.
There has never been a crossunder at Bleecker. I don't know that ANY of the original IRT (Contract I) local stations had them, as originally built. Broadway-Lafayette on the BDFQ is very close to the south end of the southbound Bleecker platform so it wasn't difficult to make the connection, but an underpass between the northbound and southbound sides of Bleecker would have to connect the north end of the southbound platform and the south end of the northbound platform, due to the offset platforms at Bleecker - not an easy connection and probably not justifiable, given the traffic patterns. Anyone using a calendar-based Metrocard, however, can make the connection without extra cost simply by going up one flight to the street rather than down one flight to a passageway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The plan for Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker nortbound is to extend the northbound Bleecker platform southward to the East end of Broadwy-Lafayette and run stairs and escalators form the unused upper mezzanine at Bway-Laf. (the one that would go to the never opened, slabbed over entrance on the east side of Lafayette by the Puck Building) either directly to the two plaforms or to the lower mezzanine for a corridor connection to the in-sevice lower mezzanine above the middle of Bway-Laf. Since the ramps from the east lower mezzanine to the middle one were removed in the rehab, I suspect the plan is the former, to go directly down to the platform.
If we only had the station plans from the TA. They show all the unused corridors, mezzanines, ramps, stairs, and entrances.
[The plan for Broadway-Lafayette/Bleecker nortbound is to extend the northbound Bleecker platform southward to the East end of Broadwy-Lafayette and run stairs and escalators form the unused upper mezzanine at Bway-Laf. (the one that would go to the never opened, slabbed over entrance on the east side of Lafayette by the Puck Building) either directly to the two plaforms or to the lower mezzanine for a corridor connection to the in-sevice lower mezzanine above the middle of Bway-Laf.]
I'm rather surprised that the MTA would consider building a transfer, given the increased usage of (and official policy in favor of) the unlimited-use MetroCards.
I have heard that it is absolutely in a capital plan, as is Jay-Lawrence. When (and whether) it will be done is another question. 72nd & Broadway has been in the "next" capital plan for a decade.
I believe the Bleeker connection would be valuable to BMT southern riders -- if the A and B tracks ever open again after closing. Transfering at street level means going up and down a couple of extra sets of stairs and crossing at a light. You could lose 5-8 minutes. The lower mezzanine could run right under the Lex if the northbound station was run further south.
It's hard to get to East Midtown from Brooklyn, and lots of people work there. There is capacity on the #6 northbound AM and southbound PM to take them there.
If the Manhattan Bridge goes down, the most important changes will be Jay -- DeKalb or -- if you are really ready to squeeze in for a horrid stop -- Jay -- Lawrence. That's probably the plan -- turn half the trains at DeKalb, run the other half through Montinue, start as many additional trains as you can express on the F direct from Church to Jay, and have people walk. Lose 25 gain 12 plus a walk? Sounds fair. It's only Brooklyn, after all.
I was at Junius AND Livonia back on July 21. There's an old mezzanine at the east end of Junius which could be reopened - it's less than 100 feet from the pedestrian overpass. The neighborhood's better than it used to be, but I still wouldn't want to go there at night.
Wayne
Not to be argumentative, but I didn't say the MTA should make these transfers free, but they are de facto free transfers if you have an all-day or weekly or monthly pass.
9/4/99
Picture yourself looking out the front window of a West End train leaving Ninth Avenue heading north to Manhattan. As your train descends down before you move left there are ramps that lead to 38th Street yard. Further down there are another set of ramps with no tracks on them. I heard years ago that those second set of ramps were for the 5th Ave/Culver service. Then things got cleared up when I was told those ramps were never used and 5th Ave/Culver trains used the first set of ramps (38th St yard leads) to eventually enter the 5th Ave el. My question is were those second set of ramps ever used and if not what was their propose use ??
Bill Newkirk
Those ramps you see w/o tracks are the former connections to the Fifth Ave. elevated lines that merged there many millenia ago.
9th Ave. is interesting because it is also the point where the SBK (what remains of it) stops running on it's private ROW and enters the subway system.
You might want to join some of your fellow SubTalkers on Saturday, September 18, at 39th Street and 3rd Ave. for a tour of the waterfront railroad area by Bush Terminal. The SBK trackage is a part of the tour. For more details check 'Upcoming Events' at the main page.
Doug aka BMTman
On Friday September 3, as i was traveling my neighborhood, i noticed at the #4 IRT and the B and D Train yards, they now have signs on them at the front gates. #4 train yard sign says, ''Jerome Ave Yard, Home of the #4 Train. Entrance at Paul Ave.'' This sign is at Van Cortland Ave and Jerome Ave.
D Train sign at Jerome Ave and 204th Street says, ''Concourse Yard, home of the D train.'' did not mention the B train.
If any of the good people of SubTalk live near a train yard, does your train yard have a sign on it?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Home of the #4 and B and D train yards.
I don't live near one but I went to the US Open and I know that the Corona Yard has a sign.
Peace Out
-Clayton
Corona is the "home of the #7 train".
Who puts those signs up anyway? The TA? The workers there?
Theres a sign on the street at 240 Yard that gives the street address and sez Ex. 240 Yard 5911 Broadway home of the No.1/9 Lines.
The "B"s are visitors to Concourse line - I believe their home base is Coney Island Yard. Some "B"s may lay up either on the center track in the Concourse Yard proper between shifts but their home, as is with the rest of the R68As, is CI.
Wayne
I believe that's correct, Wayne. BTW, when I return to work next week, I'll check the Canarsie yard for any signage and report my findings.
Doug aka BMTman
If you get off the Jackie Robinson (Interborough) Pkway at Bushwick as soon as you hit Bushwick there is a sign "Welcome to the East NY Yard, Home of the JZL trains"
I have seen this sign as well. It look pretty old.......
3TM
Hoyt/Bridge St-Fulton Mall. The next station is Borough Hall. Transfer is available to the M,N,R,4,and 5 trains. Stand clear......
I know that service was discontinued on the old West Hempstead-Mineola branch of the LIRR sometime in the 1940's. Does anyone know why the branch was discontinued and pulled up--it sure would be nice to be able to take a one seat ride today from Valley Stream to Mineola, or even to Oyster Bay!
Anyone here familiar enough with LIRR history to tell me why the line was pulled up?
It's a shame it was discontinued. According to an article in Newsday several months back, the Hempstead to Mineola run of LI Bus along with another North South run have replaced the Hempstead to Jamica run as the most widely used route. The Hempstead-Jamaica run was the perenial champ for 30 years. Shows how lifestyle patterns have changed. Too bad there are no major North-South Rail lines on LI and that if you want to go N?S you have to sling-shot to Jamaica
The section of track between Mineola and Garden City stayed in existence well into the 1960s. The six-way cross junction just north of Country Life Press was probably removed in the 1940s, scaled back to just turnouts. That would have made it impossible to go in a straight line from Mineola to West Hempstead. The stretch between West Hempstead and Country Life Press lay abandoned for a long time, and around 1960 or 1961, was finally dug up. I remember seeing crossing gates at Franklin Avenue and at Hempstead Turnpike, and, once, seeing a train cross Hempstead Turnpike near S.Klein's, this was back around 1959 or 1960.
Wayne
The ROW is still very much there, however. It's defined well enough to even view it from Terraserver. I was under the impression that it weas used for turning electrics at one time, but I've never heard of that - that's also why the Oyster Bay line has that short stretch of rail. BTW - the Mitchel field shuttle tracks are still there (but no third rail after the first 100 feet or so), they break off right past the graden city stop, as the tracks curve into country life press (by far the oddest station name on the LIRR). Last holdout for the MP-41 (the unknown MP-41). Alsao where some RDCs appeared back in the late 50's.
It's obvious how the ROW went to the Main Line. Ironically, part of it is now a parking lot for the AAA offices over there.
9/4/99
Wasn't Country Life Press a local newspaper ??
Bill Newkirk
No, It was a subsidiary of Doubleday Books. Doubleday had a large book factory adjacent to the CLP station. In fact, it was to service the employees at the factory that the station was built in 1911.
I thought Country Life Press was named after a dry cleaner!
Mike H
County Life Press has got to be my all time favorite railroad station name.
Sorry for the typo. Left off the "R".
It sure is distinctive. And pronuonceable, unlike about 1/2 of the stations on Septa :)
Does anyone know why the LIRR canned the service in the first place???
<<...as the tracks curve into country life press (by far the oddest station name on the LIRR). >>
And one of the odder stations as well. CLP is the only single track station on what is for all but probably a half-mile stretch a two track line. The ROW at the station is clearly wide enough for two tracks. Does anyone know whether it was a two track station back when you had to "Change at Country Life Press" for the train to Mitchell Field?
The ROW at Country Life Press station itself may be wide enough to support two tracks, but north of the station, where it crosses Chestnut Street it isn't, and going around the curve it isn't either. There's a building and a parking lot right in the elbow of the curve.
South of the station there's a one-track bridge over Meadow Street and the ROW is narrow there too.
I do believe the shuttles to Clinton left from the north end of the station. An old photo I have from a clipping kind of supports this - it dates from the 1940s and shows a two-car train, either an early MP-54 or an MP-41. It's one of Ron Ziel's pictures.
Wayne
It's an MP-41 - they ended their lifes on that line
Anyone know ANYTHING about those cars?
If I'm not mistaken, the MP41 was one of the first electric MU cars the Pennsy had. If its the car I'm thinking of, it was designed by Gibbs, and is essentially a Pennsy P-41 steam coach modified to contain motors and control package equipment. The same cars were used alot around suburban Philly, and on the West Jersey & Seashore.
That confirms what a now-retired LIRR motorman told me recently - that he remembered having to take a train from Valley Stream to Country Life Press, then reversing direction to get to Hempstead around 1958 or so.
I have some pictures of the old ROW from Mineola to West Hempstead at my LIRR History website, http://www.lirrhistory.com/minwhemp.html
Last I saw, the power lines that defined the ROW are still in existence, at least between West Hempstead and Country Life Press. These were unusual in that they were side-by-side poles with "X" braces between them. Not so sure about the Mineola-Garden City stretch - some portions may have been built on. I'll have to go back there and check it out.
Wayne
I remember the crossing at Hempstead Tnpk by Kleins & White Castle, but no gates.
While channel surfing last night, I watched the last 30 minutes of the movie (it was on HBO+ at 10 PM). There is a subway scene which is supposed to be Columbus Circle on the IRT. The window signs said
DYRE AVE, Brooklyn Bridge and EXP-Local, so we know that's wrong. Anybody konw anything ????
I haven't seen the movie; however, it's possible the train may be incorrectly marked. Movies with subway footage are notorious for incorrect train markings, with The Warriors topping them all in that department.
Steve,moving onto the Warriors (please forgive me). I have not yet figured out where the scene, where the guy skates down a ramp following our hero, was filmed. I have seached Union Square but no ramps there. Any ideas
Simon
Swindon UK
Sorry guys, I forgot to post this info the other day:
The Boston Rapid Transit Album by Bradley H. Clarke
Published in 1981 by the Boston Street Railway Association; PO Box 102 Cambridge, Massachusetts 02238-0102
The book is truly an albumn, since most photos are single shots that take up an entire page. Near the beginning are listings of the various lines and their histories as well as a Boston Transit Time-line of important events since the start of subway service.
I have had the book for a number of years, so I wouldn't know if the book is even still in print.
BTW, the cover features a color pic of Orange Line cars heading to the old Washington Street Elevated station just prior to it's demolition.
Good hunting!
Doug aka BMTman
About a week ago, someone commented that they hadn't
seen such an agreement of opinion of people
concerning Red Caboose. I wonder how people feel
about the MTA's Transit Transit show that appears
on Channel 25 on Saturdays at 3:30 PM , and at other
times on Cablevision. I find it too staged and too
goody two shoes ( is that an expression? ) It's too
upbeat, not depressing enough for my tastes. It might be better if the hosts could get into fights with each other, or just silently glare at each other when they're on an outing together. Anyway
what do you think?
9/4/99
Maybe your request can be fulfilled having Transit Transit produced in partnership with Jerry Springer and the World Wrestling Federation!
I'm surprised TRANSIT TRANSIT isn't situated in WALLA WALLA Washington! The good thing out here if you miss one episode one week or forget to set the VCR,you'll catch the same episode next week. For those out here in Nassau county it's on Channel 80 Wednesday nights at 8:00PM (Cablevision of Woodbury)
Bill Newkirk
What do I think?
I think Paul you have issues.
Enough said.
It is on Cablevison of NYC at 6pm Thursdays, a bad time for me. But when I do catch it, I do for the track side shots. Sometimes I turn off the sound!!!
It is a MTA PR snowJOB...
Wish they would show more operational stuff.
The bus competition was intresting but they didn't go into WHAT had to be done just that the did it.
Those of you who have read my postings know I do not wave the TA flag! I agree that the show is a syrupy love fest. They show the place like it is hunky-dory in the TA all the time. But I have seen a lot of good informative stuff. I think it is a Public Relations tool and nothing else. My question is this: what are the ratings and how much does it cost to produce this program? How much does it cost per viewer?
Since it is shown on Public Access Cable and is the only show I watch like anything close to regular on Public Access (I try to catch the Public Board of Ed meetings) it is hard to say about rating. Also that the same show is repeated the whole month does cut down costs.
This answers none of your questions, but visit their website...
Transit Transit
--Mike
I have seen this transit trabsit show, and i agree with paul C-49 Mack Bus. It is sometimes goody two shoes. This show should show the good and the bad in the NYC transit system, trains and buses.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Home of the #4 and B and D train Yards.
Vinny Voltage? Kind of reminds me of those question-and-answer features during football and hockey games which were hosted by, respectively, Tackles the dog and Peter Puck.
I've caught Transit Transit and the one put out by TrainLand/World.
Don't go out of my way to see each edition, but both have enough stuff that it keeps my interest.
Mr t__:^)
Since the TA is producing the show, are they really going to produce something that makes themselves look bad??????
The show would probably be better if it included panel discussions with "critics" such as the Straphangers, etc. Remember the joke about about optimists and pessimists -- Optimists think this is the best of all possible worlds, and Pessimists know it is? The show presents the optimistic side of this, the MTA Board the pessimist side.
When the mock up of the new IND equipment was on display up in Harlem, they had a crew there and the guy interviewd me. Don't know if it even go on the air, though I guess if I can make on TV, anything's possible.... :)
I also remember seeing the R-110 A (the IRT one). nobody could answer my questions about the various trucks they had near it (they sure didn't look like TA ones)
Yesterday, was i was on a CI bound N train, a F train was on the manhattan bound express track, going really fast. I couldnt see what any of the train numbers were or what the signs said, but does anybody know why the F train would be there?
laterz
blackdevl
Probably doing accelleration tests.
Hey Mike and Blackdevl: Couldn't the TA let the Sea Beach run acceleration tests on its tracks instead of importing the F train for such ridiculous experimentation. I still haven't heard a decent reason for the Sea Beach not being an Express train, especially since she shares tracks up to 59th street with the ponderous and boring R train. Maybe someone can clue me in.
I assume they were testing the R-46, which the N doesn't use. Why should they have to change the signs on the train? The N does run express from 59th to Pacific in Brooklyn. Since it still has to merge with the R, it eludes me why it can't run express in Manhattan. I guess since in Brooklyn no matter what they do the N and R would have to merge, while in Manhattan, no express service means no merging/diverging. It's also more likely that with 3 trains in the tunnel, the forcibly pathetic service levels would make it impossible to use a local station. But the tail ends of the N and the R in Brooklyn have to live with this garbage.
You probably have more passengers in Manhattan than you do between Pacific st and 59st.
Don't tell me the R-46s are being souped up.
Sorry to open up a new can of worms here, but....
It seems that certain stations are more unsavory and bad than others at certain times....
In my opinion, just about any station that lies in an industrial area can simply spook me out...I place a vote for a number of the #6 staions between 3 Av-138 St and Hunts Point Av, exclusive of those two.
Any other stations that could fit in the category (I know 75th Ave. (F) may be one of the candidates)?????
I might place a vote for some of the stations from Lafayette Ave. to Rockaway Ave. on the Fulton IND...remember the "Money Train" flaming?
Sorry again for opening yet another can of worms here....
Nick
9/4/99
Not to worry about opening up a can of worms. We should all be on the lookout and inform each other for our safety including those who carry and expose camera equipment.
Bill Newkirk
Hey Bill,
Yeah be on the lookout, or better yet, take along a railfan off-duty cop as chaperone!
Mike H
I would vote for the Fulton St station on the G, or most of any of the stations along the IND crosstown line for that matter. While attending Brooklyn Tech HS, I worked in the school's Dean's Office. Over those 4 years I remember seeing a lot of students coming in and reporting robberies and attempted robberies in and around that station(Fulton St station is on the same block as Bklyn Tech). The robberies usually took place in the late afternoon hours from 4:00-5:30 by kids from surrounding High Schools (mostly the delinquents from Sara J Hale HS which is being closed down by Rudy Crew). Two students last year, while on their way to the subway, were slashed across the face with a razor blade- leaving permanent scars.
The station started to improve during my senior because it was patrolled by 2-3 police officers in the mornings and afternoons, but nothing much has been done about making the streets around the station safer. Now instead of preying on students in the station, the thugs now prey on them in the streets.
David L.
Brooklyn Technical H.S.
Bio-Chemistry Major - Class of '99
yeah, i would also add DeKalb Ave for the D,M,N,R,Q and probably Lafayette Ave on the C. That whole neighborhood is crap. Theres always people getting mugged over there. Did you hear about rhe store owner who beat up some kids because he thought they were stealing from them?
laterz
blackdevl
145 Street on the 1/9 seems to be a haven for illegal/dangerous/shady activities.
4th Avenue and 9th Street has to be the worst in our part of Brooklyn -- all those passageways and blind turns. Several rapes there over the years.
Columbus Circle seems to be the spot where I've see the most private parts exposed for excretory purposes. I try to avoid it.
I've been silent on this topic so far.
I have been to all kinds of lovely stations in all parts of the City and never have had a problem. Took pictures in every station of the Fulton IND - no problem - did not get off at Franklin, Rockaway, Van Siclen, or Shepherd but got off at all the others. Took pictures, got off at every stop between 110th-Lenox and East 180th Street - no problem. Got off at and took pictures at every stop on the Crosstown between Hoyt and Court Square - no problem. Got off and took pictures at every single station on the "L", including the more scenic ones (like A.A., Sutter, Livonia and New Lots) - no problem.
Neighborhoods in many places are improving and crime is certainly down. This is not to paint a totally rosy picture - there are for sure drug locations and places where robbers frequent. Walk the footbridge between Junius and Livonia? Not a problem, at 3:45PM.
I do try and not go alone on my adventures, but when I do, I keep both eyes wide open and stay away from remote areas of stations etc.
The one problem? October 31, 1997 at 59th Street-Lexington Avenue. Fortunately, I had Uncle Charlie and Sgt. Pepper with me; the thug took off once Uncle Charlie showed his face.
Wayne
I also have had no problems in the stations or on the trains.
Sometimes you can't avoid being at certain stations at certain times.
I've felt uneasy alot of times- Aqueduct-N Conduit at 1am, 155 st on the C at 5am, Classon Avenue at 9pm. Sometimes it's good to take advantage of the off hour waiting areas and go with your gut.
How true. My feelings are that almost any neighborhood in the city is okay to venture in during daytime, but nighttime is another story. And of course desolate/poorly lit areas in any section of the city -- yes, even the burbs -- could be a potential crime location.
Enjoy riding and exploring the system, just use common sense when you do and you'll be fine.
Doug aka BMTman
While some stations obviously are more dangerous than others, it's important not to forget that crimes can occur anywhere and at any times (although the overall crime rate is very low, of course). The most notorious crime in recent years, the Kendra Webdale murder, occurred during the day in a station in a safe area on one of the safest lines (23rd Street on the N/R).
"While some stations obviously are more dangerous than others, it's important not to forget that crimes can occur anywhere and at any times (although the overall crime rate is very low, of course)."
Indeed. Here in Chicago a few days ago, a German tourist was slashed in an attack by a madman (it wasn't a holdup or such, the nut just walked up to the man and cut him) right in the Dearborn Street subway in the heart of the Loop and at the height of rush hour. Security caught the attacker immediately. To the rare credit of the local media, while the story got a lot of ink and airtime, it wasn't (mis)portrayed as a typical occurrence.
(Got your attention, eh?)
Today's mission was to get an altitude reading at Smith/9th Street for Peggy's database and the station-by-station write-up.
From work, I went to the Rock Center IND station, intent on catching an F. But lo-and-behold, there's a Slant R-40 F waiting for me! The express run from 34th to West 4th was as wonderful as ever, with a max speed of 47 mph, and total motion time of two minutes, eighteen seconds.
Over to the F for the ride to Smith/9th. The measurement? The station is eighty feet above street level, plus or minus ten feet.
{CORRECTED LAST POST FOR TYPE-O ... IT"S BEEN A LONG DAY!}
(Got your attention, eh?)
Today's mission was to get an altitude reading at Smith/9th Street for Peggy's database and the station-by-station write-up.
From work, I went to the Rock Center IND station, intent on catching an B. But lo-and-behold, there's a Slant R-40 F waiting for me! The express run from 34th to West 4th was as wonderful as ever, with a max speed of 47 mph, and total motion time of two minutes, eighteen seconds.
Over to the F for the ride to Smith/9th. The measurement? The station is eighty feet above street level, plus or minus ten feet.
Boy, the old fingers (and eyes!) are not working today. You all knew what I meant:
I was intent on catching the
F
But found a Slant-40
B.
whew. I'm glad the weather is coming out better today...
Yes there is one or two consist of Slant R40 B which only come out on the weekends.
I though for a minute that the R46 had gone somewhere and left the Queens IND open for reinvasion by the Slants. I remember when the Slants RULED the Queens IND, 1968 thru 1977.
Wayne
BTW, saw a slant running on the M yesterday.
They're still there? I thought with the Willy B reopening they'd have gone back to the "L". Some Slants have been plying the "M" since Willy B closed and no doubt they haven't gotten around to swapping them back.
Wayne
At this point, I don't see why they just don't send a slant over there when they need a train.
Good point - on the weekends, most of them are laid up and I don't think they're using the full fleet for the "Q" on the weekdays either.
Have they finished doing their preventive maintenance on them?
Wayne
I meant the E.N.Y cars.They should even run one on the J if they have to especially on weekends since the Z doesn't run.(They don't have Z signs in them).There were two instances where the M had R42 equipment running to Marcy ave. It was one train each instance with Myrtle ave signs.
How tough would it be to add "Z" to the curtain roll? Most of the front-end "Z" signs I've seen look like sideways "N"s painted brown. Only a few cars on the "Z" that I've seen actually have "Z"s that are the proper shape and size.
Wayne
Got a Slant on the 16:02 Stillwell Nancy Saturday. And many thanks to the TO who showed of the cab to my 6yr old Nephew who then "DROVE" the train while standing at the storm door.
The T/O explanied the Brake Handle and gauges to him, not that I was looking over their shoulders and slobering like some Subway Buff >G<.
Today we got 32's each way, my poor Nephew justs sees out the storm door (nothing like a slant) and the chain blocks some of his view.
I had the same headache on the Jamaica El as a child when they ran mixes of R16s and R27/30s. I was just too short to see out of the R16's round porthole storm window, but I was tall enough to see out of the R27/30's square one. I liked the R27/30's better - they screeched louder than the R16s and I got a big kick out of hearing the train screech, especially at Crescent and Cypress Hills, Alabama too. That sound is still music to my ears. A pox on those water-sprayers! Last really good one was back on August 14th, on a southbound "A" train of R38s between Chambers Street-H&M and Broadway-Nassau. A few passengers held their ears, but I drank it all in with a smile.
Wayne
Right now, my son is only tall enough to see out the front of the Slants, PATH trains and the LIRR's M-1s. As for the last named, you can never be sure when the front car of any LIRR train will be open to passengers, or if the crew will shoo you away and stand next to the engineer's cab chatting away with the engineer while blocking the front window. Too bad- the front window on the weekend Jamaica-Freeport-Babylon express was always my favorite.
Hopefully, the Redbirds will still be in service in a year when the lad will be tall enough for their windows. I imagine the 32s, 38s and 42s will be around for at least another decade or so. Unfortunately, the front windows of everything from the R-62 on forward have been obliterated by the cab.
Alot of them have "Z" pasted over V or K. You can tell that there is an orange or blue circle underneath.
So THAT's why the "Z" looks darker than the "J" or "M"! Thanks for the information.
Wayne
Same thing when the B made its debut in 1967. The R-32s assigned to that line had Bs pasted over their BB signs. This was just before the R-32s, R-38s, and R-16s were fitted with those multicolored route roller curtains.
After an eary meeting at Euston Station Rob Morel and myself moved onto Edgware via the Northern Line and bottles of Snapple. No 59's there so a swift return. Passed a Unit on the way back so we stopped off at Colindaleto wait for the returning 59. As the unit pulled in we took the opportunity of setting about it with the cameras before boarding to admire the poor internal condition. After several stops the train was halted by a need for a crew change only the relief guard had (as we overheard) not finished his breakfast so the train was held. While taking photos and basking in the hot sunny weather we were invited by the driver of a 95 stock train to join him in the cab.
After much deliberation (.3 milleseconds) we seized the opportunity
and enjoyed a stunning cab ride all the way to Warren Street via the maze of Camden Town.
The Central Line beckoned so via Tottenham Court Road we sped off to do the Hainault Loop and returning to central London for Lunch at The Subway Sandwich Bar. It took a twelve inch "sub" to move us onto the Piccadilly for a trip to Heathrow Airport and take hopefully travel on some un-modified 73 stock. Much to our supprise there were several of these units still around although our "express" run to Acton Town was in the modified version. A stop was made st Terminal 4
for refreshment before moving on to Terminals 1,2 3, for a ride back to town on the Heathrow Express. The station entrance is vast hole in the Ground leading down to two platforms in one of which stood our gleaming four car unit. At just over a dollar a minute or 66 pence per mile the trip is expensive. It is also one of the smoothest and comfortable rides around in super high tec units. Our return to
town was celebrated by more Snapple and to maintain the theme - Muffins.
All in all a great day and one that should be repeated
with hopefully a few more "subway friends".
Simon
Swindon UK
A ride in the cab!?! Smashing! If that had happened here in NYC, I would have thought I'd have died and gone to heaven. Alas, the best we can hope for here is one of the RF windows. The Redbirds show no sign of departing, despite the pending R142/R142A orders. And the remaining "B" division RF window units (R32, R38, R40, R40M, R42) are still plentiful.
You DID get my mail, no?
Wayne
I was supposed to be with them on that trip! :-( Wish I could have joined you guys...
Wayne, I got a cab ride in London on the Metropolitan line Chesham branch once, and in NYC, once in the R68's on the D along the Brighton line.
-Dave
If there was one spot in London in which I would kill for a cab ride, it would have to be along the original 1863 segment. I still kick myself for not having checked it out back in 1978.
If you want some pictures I should be able to mail them to you. You could always have another trip over and meet up with Rob and myself. You would be most welcome.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thanks for your kind invitation. I will definitely keep it in mind. If you have any photos of that Hammersmith section between Baker St. and Paddington, I would certainly be interested.
Steve, give me a few weeks and I will sort something out.
Simon
Swindon UK
Thank you so much. I'm curious as to how much of the original construction is still in place (iron girders, masonry, etc.) on the 1863 segment.
Message for Steve.....I have good personal contacts with the operating management of London Underground and if you care to leave a message at smith@sra.gov.uk I may be able (no promises) to arrange a Circle line cab ride. -
Do unto others ec - once had a cab ride CI to 179th St jamaica c/o MTA !
That would be SUPER!! Maybe the next time I go to Lithuania, I can fly through London and plan a longer stopover.
From the official Bulletin:
They go on sale 9/13/1999 at 7am. The stations (I have grouped by street name to save space)
96...1,2,3,9
86...1,9,B,C,4,5,6
79...1,9
72...1,2,3,9
81...B,C
77...6
50...1,9,C,E
47/50...B,D,F,Q
23...1,9
18...1,9
14...1,2,3,9,A,C,E,F
6 AV.L
Houston...1,9
Franklin ST..1,9
WTC/Chambers...1,2,3,9,A,C,E
Welcome back!
This is not mentioned in the station by station lists or in the FAQ.
Did you all know that there used to be a direct passenger car drop-off at the Union Turnpike stop on the queens blvd ind?
The Interborough Parkway (now Jackie Robinson) dives underneath queens blvd. and bisects the station mezzanine. The two inner lanes are the parkway and the two outerlanes are union turnpike. There were very sharp and quick turn-off's from the outerlanes. Cars would stop and drop off passengers directly into the station mezzanine.
This whole setup was removed a few years ago because it was unsafe to have cars stopping and starting in a very small space.
When I would return home from LGA, I passed that exit of the station many times. Is that exit open. I doubt it since there is no traffic there. Plus there is old sign with the E,F,G,R signs on them.
3TM
This Boro Hall/Court St/Joralemon St. Transfer available to the M,N,and R trains on the lower level. The 4 and 5 trains at the rear of the platform. On the street level, transfer is available to the B25, B26, B37, B38, B41, B45, B51, B52, and B65 buses. This is a manhattan bound 3 making local stops to Chambers. The next station will Clark St. Step in, step on, step off, step out, stand clear of the closing doors.........
There used to be a bus stop at that level as well as room for dropping off passengers by car. When going down the staircase from street level on Union Tpke., one walks past that area. They put a fence up so the vehicles cannot stop there any longer.
1. When was the last run of the R-16s? I assume they were replaced by the R-46 order. Why were these cars replaced at a relatively early age?
2. Why were the last R-30s retired in 1993, four years after the R-68s came in? Did the NYCTA have an excess of cars?
Thanks for the help.
No, it was the R-16's that were finally replaced by the R-68's. Then, wanting an entirely air conditioned fleet, they decided to get rid of the R-30's. This was no excess of cars, as no they were stretching out the remainder of the cars with service cuts.
There were R-16's running in passenger service (6398 among them) well into 1986. It wasn't until mid 87 that they were withdrawn from trash hauling duty as well. 6398 was a part of that last train. Amazingly enough, she was coupled to none other than 6397. Jim has all those #rs if anyone's interested.
I rode on an M train of R-16s in October of 1986, so that's a valid statement. They did seem a bit strange with their slanted door pockets. IIRC, the last R-16s were withdrawn in 1988 or so. There was an article in the Times in December of 1986 which chronicled the painful demise of 6321.
Interestingly, my sister has a interior photo of an R-16 which was taken by a photographer friend of hers. She had no idea that it was an R-16 until I told her; the slanted door pocket gave it away.
What happened to 6321?
6321 died a slow and painful death over a period of approximately one year. It suffered from a variety of maladies including blown motor/generator fuses, malfunctioning doors, weak acceleration, and finally dead motors due to deteriorated wiring. In one instance, the M train it was included in was dead and dark: seven of the eight cars had problems and the train never made it out of Fresh Pond Yard.
Once it was found to have deteriorated wiring, that was the last straw. 6321 was finally put out of its misery. The article made an interesting comment about the R-16s in general: they were the second oldest cars in the fleet and were "nothing to write home about and haven't been for some time". It also gave some MDBF intervals; at the top of the lemon list was an R-10 averaging - get this - 484 miles between breakdowns. Ouch! 6321 was at something like 1400-1600 miles. Over its 31-year life, it racked up 894,000 miles.
Now while some here have bragged about high MDBFs in Jamaica Barn, what are some of the problem cars around today, NOT including cars to be retired. 6398 has exceptional car body wiring, not including the retrofit door operator which you could tell was done by the TA with the lack of tie wraps and heat shrink tape. The junction boxes weatherproof seals kept the box so new, you can clearly see the colorcodes and wire numbers on the sleeves. Sounds like 6321 was the victim of ENY shoddy maintainance and too many modifications, Group box, MC and junction box conduits are easy to access and passing new wires should not be a problem. Remember car 9000 in the mid 1980's as it burned up with switch box fires after it was rebuilt many times. It wasn't until it got the SCM that the problem went away but I'd bet good money that contact tip inspection and simple preventative measures during inspection were not being taken seriously during the era that 6321 had to endure. If the EMS program was around in the '70s and '80s, it is possible that the R-27s that were painted red might have ran around a little longer than the three weeks that they did with that paint scheme.
I remember that some of the R-16s were on the EE and GG around 1969-70. Weren't they on both trains in the Queens Blvd. collision of May, 1970? The RR at that time was mostly R-27s/R-30s.
I do remember that Times article of 1986.
The two trains involved in the May 20, 1970 collision just west of Roosevelt Avenue were both "GG" trains. One was on the local track, the other was on the express track. The train on the local track was out of service, and was an R40M wearing post-brake test numbers. The lead car was #4501. It was being driven from the third unit with TA personnel to act as eyes from the first car. The train on the express track, in revenue service, and full of passengers, was an R16. The fifth car of this train, #6304, was hit by the lead car of the other train as it switched back to the local track. The R40M had gone past the red signal without realizing it, at less than 4MPH.
Car #6304 was pushed out of the consist and impacted the edge of the concrete curtain wall just to the left side of the storm door, shearing about forty feet off the side of the car. Two passengers were killed. R40M #4501 was badly damaged but salvaged using body parts from Slant R40 #4200 and a replacement of her bonnet, sign window, anticlimber and some interior parts. She remains in service to this day. R16 #6304 was beyond all hope of repair.
Wayne
And 6304 was heard to say, "Whew! At least it wasn't a BMT standard." Of course, the standard would have walked away with a few scrapes and bruises and been back in service the next day. There was a similar incident on the Mets in 1970 in which Jerry Koosman was struck in the mouth while running in the outfield by a line drive off the bat of another pitcher, Gary Gentry. Koosman had to have his jaws wired shut as a result, but kept his sense of humor by saying, "At least it wasn't a line drive from Donn Clendenon." True story.
Yesh, Donn Clendenon could smoke 'em out of Shea. Remember that key home run he hit in the World Series. It was a Moon Shot. Tommie Agee and Cleon Jones could hit 'em a country mile as well. Agee was particulary adept at knocking them into that little porch down the left field line.
Anyway, some of the Daily News and NY Times post-mortem photos of R16 #6304 show her at Jamaica-Yard, completely disemboweled down her left side, guts and wires hanging down from the ceiling, blower fans drooping where the ceiling support was ripped away, seats gone, doors gone, straps hanging at crazy angles, stanchions lying on the floor, linoleum tiles ripped up, etc. It is a miracle and an act of Divine Providence that no more than two were killed considering how the transverse seating areas were impacted.
A BMT Standard surely would have done worse damage. However, had anybody been sitting opposite #4501's cab, they would have been seriously injured if not killed, as the whole corner of the car caved in back to the #8 door.
You DO remember the fate that befell #6494, don't you?
Wayne
Clink hit three homers in the '69 series and was the MVP. You're probably referring to the one he hit in Game 5 after Cleon Jones was hit by a pitch on his shoe. I got home from school just in time to catch the ninth inning and saw Jones put away Davey Johnson's fly ball for the last out, and was late for a drum lesson because I had to watch the Shea field get all torn up.
IIRC, 6494 got into a fracas with a BMT standard and ended up with one end bashed in. Probably taunted the standard with "I've got bulkhead signs and you don't, nyah-nyah". To which the standard replied, "And you got that crappy GE stuff, ppbbbbb." "Oh yeah?" "Yeah."
BAMMMMM!!!!
Hold on. I'm confused. You and Wayne state that 6494 got hit by a BMT Standard, but Larry, Redbird R33 has a different story to tell. According to Redbird from a post several months back, 6494's life came to an end when the the car hit the bumping block on on one of the Nassau St turnback tracks south of Broad St. Who's telling the right story here?
The car that did get hit by a BMT Standard was R27 8217. AB Standard 2761 got the better of the R27 in their classic fight at Stillwell Av back in 1961. 8217 got crunched up one end and received 6494's good end, while the unused remainder of 6494 went to scrap.
Any Ideas???
Stef
Apparently 6398 was involved in some sort of fracas here. The evidence: A deep gouge in the car body near the roof line, a bent stirrup on the #2 end and a dent in the anti-climber on the #1 end.
Something happened in her carrer. I can't find out though. Does any one know?
Larry may be right. It's easy to assume that any car which got bashed in back then got into it with a BMT standard. The Triplexes minded their own business, except the two which duked it out at Stillwell Ave. in 1955.
Must have been one hell of a cataclysm!
And now for the world's heavyweight championship bout!
BMT Standard vs. Triplex
Steve B - did you hear that? King Kong vs. Godzilla - the Fight of the Century! In the red corner, weighing in at 270 tons, from Brooklyn New York, #6019-ABC and #6112-ABC, and in the blue corner, also from Brooklyn, New York, weighing in at 294 tons, #2390, 2391, and 2392. Gentlemen, start your motors!.
Wayne
More like Joe Frazier vs Muhammad Ali.
Nothing like a good old-fashioned subway demolition derby. How well did those cars do in reverse?
Stef: R-16 6494 was wrecked when it hit the bumper at Broad Street on Sept 26,1957. The damaged portion of the car was scrapped in Feb 1958.(This is from NYD Bulletin of Mar 61).
R-27 8217 collided with AB 2761 on July 24,1961 in the Coney Island Yard. At first they thought to send 8217 back to St Louis for rebuilding but in Feb 1962 it was decided to repair 8217 using the undamaged portion of 6494 which had not been scrapped.(NYD Bulletins Aug 61 and Feb 62).
Hope this clears up any confusion.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Speaking of collisions, anyone know why 3381 has an R-27 end welded to the number 2 end
Thanks. I'll amend my records to show this corrected info. Sometimes it's hard to keep all of this straight!
Wayne
Thank You for clearing that up!!!!
-Stef
I told you Larry was right. Still, I'll bet the other R-16s were saying, "Don't tell me you ran into a BMT standard!"
I've heard people refer to R16 #6321 before. Can anybody give me the gist of what happened to this poor subway car? Does it have some particularly nasty record that would even put the regular R16's to shame?
Back in 1984 my sister used to ride the J into Manhattan to her job. At this time about halk the line was R16. One week, every single morning she'd get an R16, and all 5 days she never made it past Eastern Pkwy because of some kind of malfunction. She finally gave up and let every single R16 J train pass, hoping for an R2730 or 42. In 1985 that got a bit hard, since the R27-30's disappeared for the most part. She'd always leave an hour early just to be sure she'd get to work on time.
Now that's pathetic.
I have that very NY Times article from December of 1986 entitled, "Requiem for a Subway Car, Age 31". By the time 6321 breathed its last, it had become "one of the biggest, if not the biggest, lemons in the car fleet". It got to the point where it was breaking down every couple of days, and even then it was being used as little as possible.
In 1988 ALL the R-16's were sitting in scrap lines. There
were around 12 in CIY, two at Canarsie, two at 36th and
the one at P.S. 248.
6389 was one of the ones at 36th and now is restored. 6339
and 6305 sit in front of CIOH awaiting their turn. They
are the other cars from Canarsie and 36th.
6421 was also locker car, but the desire to save a GE R-16
wasn't there. That car sat in CIY until 1995. Most of the
usable parts from it were saved for spares for the other
R-16's. (thank you Erik and Harold)
By summertime, 1988, the 12 scrap R-16's from the trash
train were taken away for scrap. But not before we had
stripped them. 6398 was moved over to 103 Tk in X yard.
Did it look odd next to all those R-46's. Man do I miss
that P wire.
But all in all, 1988 had no movement of R-16's except for
scrap moves.
The failure rate on those cars was terrible. No argument
there. But who's fault was that? It's a miracle they ran
at all! Open a controller, and look at the original 1955
hoses! Look at the contactors, burnt, pitted. And try and
wonder that any took power at all!
Of all those cars in CIY during 1987/88, NONE had 100%
working equipment. Even 6398 had it's faults. The motor
generator was blown. (the story of how we changed that in
the yard is amazing) 6397 had a bad compressor. 6335 was
ok, but had doors that wouldn't open. ALL had major rust.
Most had either big flats or thin wheels. It was a serious
triage just figuring which car we would select for
preservation. And it hurt to see those cars we stripped
take their final journey.
So if some of you guys have bad memories of the R-16,
don't blame a well designed car. Blame the TA for allowing
them to deteriorate to that level. Few other cars saw the
shift from one barn to another as often as they did. From
as many as three seperate shops. There would be periods as
long as 12-14 months between inspections. Parts shortages,
were yard masters would shuffle bad order cars into the
middle of a train, until they could be repaired. Only they
wouldn't be. So eventually a bad car woud resurface at a
operating position, to be removed from service YET AGAIN!
Amazingly enough, this still happens today occassionaly.
So leave the R-16 alone.
The car that you refer to is not 6389, but rather 6387 that was preserved and is currently at the Transit Museum. With the exception of a rust hole that was left unattended, I'd say that this R16 looks pretty good.
-Stef
Hi, everyone.
I am collecting New York Metrocards and have some for exchange. Even I have for exchange few from 1995.
9/4/99
For all of those you who remember,a train of R-16's was indefintely
laid up on the center tracks of the Jamaica line between Crescent St and Cypress Hills for MONTHS !! This is a section of the "el" that when going towards Jamaica takes a sharp left when leaving Crescent St,goes a few blocks and takes a sharp right into the "newer" extended
Jamaica line to 168th St. Those R-16's,possibly problematic G.E. cars were there for some time. The time frame was late 1970's or early 1980's. Anybody out there have any explanation for this ??
Bill Newkirk
When I lived near that el in the 1940's and 1950's that siding only had switches on the Fulton St end, and the siding was never ever used, the track was really rusty. It's hard to believe that R-16's were in long term storage on that poor old track. I actually lived right alongside that section of the el from 1942-1957 and the center track was just never used. I guess you realize that section was of the original el that was built before the turn of the century.
After the R-46's got their teething pains over with, the GE R-16's became extras. There were around 80 or so left in runnng condition. They were stored for long periods in odd places, that to keep them out of the way.
Yards and sidings, relay tracks, you name it. The old Nassau loop tracks. Outside Court St. Sea Beach 3 and 4. Some of the Westinghouse cars were laid over as well. 6398 spent a considerable amout of time in mothballs. The evidence is visible in several ways as Harry and I have been restoring the car.
Most of those R16's must have been used when the R27-30's were being overhauled and painted red. During 1985, the J line was almost entirely R16.
No way. Even if all 100 Westinghouse (6300's) were availiable, the J needs about 160 cars for full service (20 trains).
As I live by the J line, I remember quite well. Perhaps during rush-hours there were more cars of other types. But when I rode it, it was like every 3rd train was R16. Much more than in the previous few years, leading me to believe they were temporarily replacing the R2730's.
Lots were stored in Fresh Pond Yard as well on the higher numbered tracks. Eventually they were lugged off to Linden Yard to be scrapped. I became a motorman in 1981. When they got resurrected, I never saw a GE car on the road, but I did a yard move at ENYD with 6422 or 23 in the lead as a horse,
If the GEs were so unreliable, then why did the GE R-17s last until 1989?
I believe they used a different switch groiup than the R-16s
It had to do with maintainence. The R-17's had one barn. Generally, the 16 had to get swapped around from ENY to CI to Jamaica, and back. In those days that was a virtual death sentence for a car with a tricky propulsion system as the R-16 GE.
The 17 stayed put at E 180 or 239. So for the most they had better, more frequent inspections.
If ENY shop owns a car, and it's running on the GG, or the EE, you bet it's gonna get overlooked at Jamaica. I have the maintainence logs for 6398. In the late 60's and into the 70's, there are whole YEARS without inspections!
For those Metrocard collectors, I think there are two types of MILLENNIAL JOURNEYS 11th Centry "Crossing the channel to normady" (a real UGLY card) out there.
I have one with a VISA logo on it and one without. What gives?
9/4/99
I have noticed that the one with the VISA logo are chiefly available from most MVM's and the one without I purchased at the transit Museum gift shop. Why the two ?? Beats me!!
Bill Newkirk
Yeah, I just got hold of the VISA version. I haven't seen any others.
I do have four new MCs that just came on the scene.
2 are American Express ads -- one with John McEnroe; the other has two guys on a motorcycle.
Another is a Citibank ad encouraging students to apply for Mastercard.
Lastly is the very nice BLAZE card. It is a clever subway related ad for a youth-oriented ('hiphop'?) magazine. Each letter of BLAZE is spelled out with the use of the official NYCT Line indicator logos.
Doug aka BMTman
The non-Visa/non-Amex Millenial Journeys cards are available at the Transit Museum shops and stores/newstands/check cashing places. The Visa version of the first card is in MVMs now.
There are two other Amex US Open cards. One is Althea Gibson (Member since 83). I hear that one is Venus Williams (Member since 99) (For those infamiliar, see http://www.altheagibson.com/gallery.html). The only one I have been able find at Willets Point is the two guys on the motorcycle. I don't recognize them.
Where is BLAZE available? I found one about to months ago.
Also, can someone tell me how you post graphics (like the route logos) and links within messages? Thanks.
Marc, the BLAZE card I found discarded at a swipe-reader at the Jay Street station. Ditto for my AMEX cards.
I looked closely at the US Open card with the guys on the motorcycle. It is some kind of a 'gag' shot: I believe McEnroe is in the driver's seat, with (I'm guessing here) Sampras on the rear?
BTW, does anyone know if there are any other Student VISA MCs besides the "Lisa Parks" one?
Our resident MetroCard collector/expert, Thurston, should be able to help out with answers to some of our queries when he gets back from vacation.
Doug aka BMTman
Just picked up my first metrocard with an add, "Dial 101-6868" for 7.9 cents a minute. Picture of a women on it (don't know if she is famous). Welcome NYCTA ala Washington Metro.
According to the NY Times City Section Article on promotional Metrocards, it is the Jansen Brothers, Luke and Murphy. They are the goofballs that have been known to wear football jerseys and carry on on the court. One plays both left and right handed. They add some color to tennis, but they are not that good. I think they usually don't make it past the quarter finals in doubles.
The article is pretty inetersting and talks about how the cards are used for to target certain markets.
It also says that the Amex cards were all along the 7 Line. I tried a number of stations on three occasions in the past 10 days and only found the Jansen Brothers card sold at Willets Point. I found the McEnroe card on a reader at W4 and a station agent at Union Square gave me a spare Althea Gibson.
My CitiBank cards are Lisa Parks, too.
But, I know from Thurston's post that there are three Continental cards again. Subway-Buff posted the stations, starting 9/13.
Marc, et, al,
Re Am Exp '83, i.e. Althea Gibson ... don't have an extra right now, but will keep you in mind.
Also the 4 R: 83; 78=John McEnroe; 97=Janson bro & 99=Venus Williams,
since I'm in College Point, near Main Street I may get a few more Am Express cards.
Re: Continental ... 7 have been prev. issued (4/98, 4/99, 5/99 & 6/99) I suspect the three comming out "Mid-Sept" will be unique.
Also three more are planned for "Mid-Oct"
Re: CitiBank ... the email a friend got from the "Prod Devel" group indicated only one card.
Re: "PT-1", i.e. 101-6868 ... was supose to be four cards, but eye have only seen the one with the woman in the blue shirt.
Re: Millennial Journeys ... A friend copied the promo from the TA site. Indicates that the next, 13th, should have a photo of a horse. Series goes thru 20th, i.e. ten cards.
Eye still need 11th & 12th with VISA logo & have a few w/out to trade
BTW, out-of-towners ... would love to trade some NYC cards for yours.
And have a few sets of the four Yankee MCs waiting for you !
Mr t__:^)
Mr t__:^)
Just a news bulletin...
Wednesday Sept. 1st, Oslo #3 pulled out of the car barn and ran the length of the electrified waterfront tracks of the Brooklyn Historic Railway in Red Hook Brooklyn. Now that our permanent power source has been installed, PCC's 3321 and 3299 have been moved to the current end of the line to allow #3 to stretch it's legs. A pic showing #3 on the line is shown in this website's Brooklyn (new) section.
Monday, 3321 is to go through more diagnostics and system checks in preparation for her to run before the end of the month.
Looking for volunteers to help finish interior painting on '21 and '99, and to help out in general.
Jan
Okay, notice for weekday, all CI bound trains run local park to hwy. Fine with me.
They were replacing the CI bound express track with jointed track sections. Why not weilded rail I do not know. But other day the wielders were out there.
Are they replacing the track joint with wields?
If so what happen to the MOW Wielded Rail Train?
Is this cheaper, lay joint and then wield?
What about inspection of the wields?
I could be wrong about what the wielders where doing.
Today with the collection of MOW gangs taking breaks at the Hwy we had a MOW train with two flatcars (one with crain) moving rails through the station and laying them out. The station is built on an overpass some of the portion of the tracks is not on a ballasted track bed so assume they will replace the rails the old fashion way with the track gang and sweat.
Just before dark Saturday nite I took a ride with my son over the WillyB on a J train. The track work is flawless. But........some of the signals were installed sideways because of clearance problems, but I wish they wouldn't have the signal number sideways as well!......I can see a motorman being blinded by the headlights of automobiles at night. Anybody working on the tracks at night is at risk.......A golden opportunity to replace the switches entering Essex St. This wasn't done. You still have a bumpy ride as the train goes over the switch entering the station.......A motorman reads his signals and signs on the right side. That is why it is called the "right of way". He doesn't need to know about a blind tripper as he is going in the proper direction of traffic, he needs to know about it when he is going "wrong rail". Not all blind tripper signs are installed from what I saw going against traffic. All you need is a small sign on the protection board........Finally, just as the train goes underground, it is on the same level with motor traffic. I did not see any barricades. All you need is a spin-out, that vehicle can easily mount the edge and wind up on the tracks. I hope it doesn't hit the third rail. I hope it doesn't kill a motorman in his cab if a train is coming at the same instant. How do you explain that to Control Center?.........I may be wrong in some of my observations, as I would have to ride over and/or operate over the bridge several times in order to get a clearer mental picture of the set-up.
Bill, I for one find these kinds of observations very interesting, thanks for the report !
Mr t__:^)
Has anybody heard about the beginning of the capital project at 72-Bway? How will the widening of the platforms affect the subway service?
3TM
This is Clark St-Brooklyn Heights. This is the last station stop in Brooklyn. Transfer available to the B25 on the upper level via an elevator. This is an 148 bound 3 making local stops to Chambers. The next station is Wall Street. Step in and stand clear of the closing doors........
I just came back from the U.S. Open....Great event but everything in there is a little too expensive for me...just give me the last row and i'm happy...Anyway I took the Path from Hoboken to 33rd St.
Question 1: What exactly is the Path doing at 14th street station...I mean what if any new improvements are going to be put in place.
Then I caucht the 1 from Penn to 42nd St. and tranfered to the 7 express(God I'm going to miss those Red bird when they get replaced). On the way back I took the 7 to Jackson Heights and tranfered to the R (the firts time taking the R from Queens) to 34th St./Herald Sqr. and got on the Path back to Jersey.
Question 2: While i was in Hoboken I noticed partially covered tracks on the road following the hudson and also a looping track at the Hoboken terminal. Can anyone tell me anything about these tracks and if there is any info on trolley service in Hoboken.
Question 3: I also noticed a group of NJT Diesls idleing with their engines running, Now I know it better for a diesl or for that matter any combustion engine to run constantly but these trains weren't going anywhere for the rest of the night (it was 12:30am when I was in Hoboken). Do they ever shut them down (other than maintenance for obvious reasons)?
the tracks in the street may be leftover from many years ago when pubic service ran trolleys into hoboken. they where enbeded in the coblestones along the station where the bus stop is now. the new hudson light rail is going there too but i don't know when work will start.
most railroads kept their engines running 24/7 njt is no different
Well, the Light Rail is going to Hoboken, yes, but the station will be on the Jersey City side (south side of Hoboken Terminal). It will not come down along Observer Hwy to the bus terminal area of Hoboken Terminal. Construction has already started on the bridgework required to get the light rail tracks into Hoboken.
-Dave
where is going to cross over rt 1 and 9 by the tunnel?
No, it will cross "over" the tunnel just east of the toll plaza/portal. They are building a bridge from the Newport Mall area, thru the parking lot of the Foodmart International, and into hoboken on the south side of the NJT tracks.
-Dave
Just looked at the Service Notices on the MTA website. It is official. Beginning 10-3-99, The 6 will go to Brooklyn Bridge late night and the 2 will run local in Manhattan........
3TM
This is Wall St, first station in Manhattan. The next station is Fulton St/Bway-Nassau/South St Seaport. Transfer available to the A,C,J,M,Z,4,and 5 trains on the upper level. Stand clear.............
This been offical since August. Currently the IRT Train Operators and Conductor are picking there new work programs. The work Programs start 10/3/99 which there will be added service on lots of IRT Routes. The No.6 will run every 4 Minute from 177 St Parkchester to Brooklyn Bridge during Middays.
I will be pick my new assignment tuesday at 11AM.
I'm comeing home to Pelham I hate Broadway!
You should pick a switching job.
I may be able to but I want to make the money since I can pick a 3 tripper from Pelham to Brooklyn Bridge for 9HRS and change. I'm not sure if I can pick a switching job. I can pick a job at Van Courtandt witch has WAA the full 8 HRS. I think thats the gap crew job. Its 6AM to 2PM.
Speaking of Pelham what happened there two days back. I heard 9501 had an explosion at Union Square and control center had ordered the power off. Trouble was they had ordered the power off south of Broome Street while the firemen almost electrocuted themselves while they were told it was off at 14 Street. Do some snooping around and confirm that those in top management can be as incompetent as those who open doors on the wrong side. In the future if power should be turned off, MAKE SURE it is! Go to the alarm box and turn all the tracks off in an emergency. Don't trust anyone with your life.
Isn't that the truth. Don't trust nobody is right.
As for the Explosion I don't know what happened. Maybe tomorrow when I go to Pelham to pick I'll find out. But that would be the 3th Exposion under an R 36 this summer.
1. Was the 8:02AM Pelham at Castle Hill Ave. Train was turned back to Westchester Yard at Parkchester. This happened around July.
2. The day of the big flood a Main Street bound No.7 had a Exposion at 111 Street.
Then there was that R-68 on the D. I've heard of fireworks, but this is ridiculous.
In the B division, the file numbers went into the 1900s exceeding the 65% quota.The switching jobs were closed out at that point when the union grieved the different pay scales. The union supposedly won something but I don't know what.
Welcome back Dave (from a daily #6 rider)
Thank You Hopefully it will be final Tuesday Morning
Its Offical I'm back on the No.6 Line out of Pelham Tuesday throu Saturday. But I'll be working the No.5 Line for the Holidays.
Maybe we'll catch you on the 6 next month.
Yes My first day back of the good old Pelham Line will be Oct.5
I'm glad I got off that No.1 Line.
Its good to be back at a terminal that Appricates my service.
Wayne (Mr. Slant R-40) and I are tentatively planning to do some picture taking on the Pelham line on Oct. 27th. Maybe we'll catch a ride on your train, especially if the Redbirds will still be out in full force.
< This is Wall St, first station in Manhattan. The next station is Fulton St/Bway-Nassau/South St Seaport. Transfer available to the A,C,J,M,Z,4,and 5 trains on the upper level. Stand clear...>
You perhaps have one of those weird GO jobs? The first station in Manhattan is Bowling Green.
Sorry, I forgot you're working on the 3. You were talking about the Lex, so I just assumed... Mea culpa.
There's a GO in effect overnights for another few weeks, which has the E running on 6th Avenue from W. 4th Street to 5th Avenue.
This morning I took the 4:56 a.m. departure from WTC, which was affected by the GO. I assume the routing from Chambers to W. 4th (lower level) is that which was used by the old JFK Express? This is also an excellent opportunity to ride on the 6th Ave. uptown local track with a railfan window.
The move mentioned above is one of the few on the system that has a "yellow bottom" (meaning diverging move) even though the physical route is straight ahead. The normal route, taking the turnout, has a "green bottom." There are a few others I know -- for example on the Canarsie Line inbound at East New York. Can you add to the list?
I think on the IRT Lenox line where the #2/#5 turns out to the Bronx is considered the "Main" and the straight-ahead to 145th Street is the "diverging".
Wayne
IIRC, the wye just after leaving Alabama Ave. on a Manhattan-bound J train falls under the same category. That's the lead to ENY Yard. I haven't been on a train headed in that direction in a long, LONG time, so I'm not 100% sure.
With all this talk of trips to London and trips to New York
I thought it may be helpful to outline the approximate costs
associated with a budget trip to London.
A flight from New York to London return can be bought for
$330.00 dollars inc tax if you shop around arnd are not fussy
about which airline you use. Before you come I think you can
pre-purchase in the US an LT Travelcard which will provide transport from Heathrow Airport to your London Hotel and a ride on the
Piccadilly express. The travelcard will provide tranport on all Underground, buses, surface trains, and docklands in London.
Hotels are cheap by NY standards. But if you use a chain
like Travel inn the rates are around $64.00 for a double room
in the suburbs and $88.00 in central London. Check it out on
www.travelinn.co.uk The hotel in Ilford in particular is right
opposite Redbridge Underground station on the Central Line and
takes 40 mins to the city. You will find everything here expensive
so here are a few tips to save money. Skip the breakfast, most hotels
and all travelinns have free tea and coffee making facilities in the roomn buy some supermarket muffins, doughnuts, or danish and hey presto - breakfast.
Lunch on a weekday is great if you like pizza. Pizza hut have a buffet as much as you can eat pizza, pasta and salad for $8.00. Pig out here.
In the suburbs food is a lot cheaper, a fish and chip supper
(no newspaper these days) is around $6.00. Buy drinks in supermarkets they are half the price than those bought off the street. Supermarket
sandwiches will provide a reasonable lunch.
Assuming a four night stay you could do a trip for one person for as little as (including around $50.00 a day for food etc) $800.00
For two people add the cost of the flight and some more spending money.
You will need insurance and I have no idea what that costs your side.
Anyway if any of you do come you will be most welcome.
Simon
Swindon UK
Actually, if you're willing to go on short notice, you can get airfare to London for far, far less. Try $115 round-trip! Many airlines have e-mail lists with weekly dirt-cheap specials. US Airways has E-Savers, American Airlines has Net SAAvers, and United has E-Fares. I'm sure other airlines have similar lists.
The drawback, of course, is the short notice - usually no more than two weeks - the travel times are very restrictive. But if you have some free weekends coming up, you can't beat the fare.
I would need $60 or some odd dollars for a passport >G
Wow, those fares are cheap. Couple them to a cheap hotel and you are on your way.
Simon
Swindon UK
In the illustrated roster this car is described as ex 927. Is it in fact an R6-3 then?
I just returned from a business trip to Oakland, California.
I probably should have asked before I went, but I'll ask now in preparation for any futrue trips to Oakland. I did get over to SF and rode the California St Cable Rwy and the Market St PCC. I see that that the Embarcadero Line is being reconstructed. On my next trip, I will utilize BART. So, what else can I look for on my next trip. I do not believe that I will have any time to see anything during the day unless my reason for being there (in Oakland) is extended over a week.
There is a light rail system in San Jose, not much to see, but its growing rapidly. There is a narrow gauge steam railroad in the Santa Cruz mountians, its a tourest operation, but alot of fun to ride, during the summers they run standard gauge trains down to Santa Cruz, on a line that runs in the middle of some city streets. Also the new commuter rail service over the Altamont pass is on my list of things to do in the Bay Area...
Thanks,
It was something to see the train coming down the middle of the street at Jack London Sq. AMTRAK, CALTRANS? Union Pacific freights. It was definitely a busy set of tracks.
Is the bus ramp to/from the bay bridge, The Key Sysyem ramp paved over for the busses?
Yes the old ROW is now the Bus loop. The JL Square line you saw is now the only trackage(the previous WP tracks on 3rd St have been removed. The tracks now in use are onetime SP now part of greater UP hosting ATK, and ATK California--San Joaquins and Capitols. Its actually quite busy. As to other sights, you should sample BART, SF MUNI Metro, and time permitting go to Sacremento--Light Rail line AND Cal State RR Museum.
Take K or M lines to the end of the line at Balboa Park, new and old car barns there. J line back to downtown. If you're short on time you can take BART one way, don't miss the J line the other way.
I also visited the Bay area with my wife on vacation last week. Saw the restored PCCs traveling along Market and Powell, rode the cable cars on the Powell line to the Wharf, and spotted the Bredas on the N-Judah line on our way to SFO. Nice transportation system, although I didn't see any BART trains (did see some ROWs in Alameda County).
One question, though. What was the thinking behind not using a standard railroad gauge for BART? Was it to lock in one sole vendor (at the time, Rohr) to provide rolling stock for the system? Or was it another politically motivated reason?
It may have had something to do with better riding stability at high speeds. Since BART trains run as fast as 85 mph, having wide gauge track helps smooth out the ride.
Stability was supposedly the key issue in developing the wider track guage. However, there are PLENTY of standard-guage operations on which the trains run at much higher speeds, so that tosses the original BART stability issue out the window.
BTW, BART's maximum speed has always been 80 miles an hour, not 85. Trains would creep up to 83 at times but the computer would catch them and bring them back down in a couple seconds. In the past few years, however, doing over 72 miles an hour is a rare thing at BART. The excuse for this was "overwinding" of traction motors. I've done a lot of riding of BART this past year and it's been my experience that the trains are barely getting over 65 miles an hour actual speed, though the maximum speed indicator on the train operators console will say "80". Methinks the trains are just getting old!
Maybe the speedometers need to be recalibrated.
I'd love to see New York's trains get up to 65 (again). I know, ain't gonna happen.
No, BART's speedometers don't need recalibration. The trains simply are NOT getting up to the speeds that they used to. The train operators even mention this.
What BART needs is a LOT of new trains. They got 80 "C2" cars a few years ago, but they are still running MOST of their original 1972 stock.
The trains can still do 80, they just slowed them dwon to save on wear and tear. The command speed in the tube for example is 80 mph, but trains usually go 65. One day I was on a train that got delayed about 10 minutes, since it was the first train of the day through the tube there was on one in our way and we got up to 77 mph.
I'd like to see NYC subways hit 40 mph consistently between stations. These days, 25 mph or less is more like it. No way the trains can beat cars traveling on the highway, except for (sometimes) those traveling to Manhattan in rush hour conditions. But they ought to at least be able to keep up with cars on the streets they run under, with stations taking the place of lights.
I think the time has come to make a choice: either go with GT signals or no field shunting, but not both. Having both makes things redundant. On a nice, straight stretch of express track, let 'er rip!
The way things are going, rapid transit in New York isn't so rapid anymore.
Gee, that sounds like a certain fleet of cars in New York. They're the reverse of Maxwell Smart's handle.
Sorry about that, Steve.
Speaking of handles from that show, I wonder if anybody else noticed that the handle of Maxwell Smart's partner is the reverse of his girlfriend's handle.
Agent 99 was his girlfriend; it just took Max about three seasons to notice her.
Here's an off-topic stumper: what was 99's real name? Barbara Feldon doesn't count; that's who played her.
Exactly! Agent 99 was his partner. What's 99 written backwards? As for the second one, I've ALWAYS wanted to know that.
Her real name on the show was Sue Hilton.
When she told Max, he replied, "I like 99 better."
From what I understand, BART reduced speeds because it significantly reduced maintnace issues, this was a few years ago.
I remember when the system opened in the early seventies, with already obsolete computers controlling it, we all wished that there was a controller and a broake handle up in the cab, as we sat idly for long periods.
Were you looking at the speedometer, (green i think) or the speed-limit indicator (orange, and smaller) ? Recently I've never seen a train running over 72. Years ago there was a bad segment on the LED display, and we all thought we were going _92_ until cooler heads prevailed.
The speedometer is the larger one, of course -- and yes, I was looking at that. When BART trains were new, they were allowed to do 80 maximum, but you could watch the speed occasionally creep a couple miles past but it would immediately slow down.
And, yes, I haven't seen anything more than 72 tops lately. As others have pointed out, BART cut the top speeds down about 10% to
cut down on wear and tear. If you do the mathematics, the 10% reduction in speed isn't going to matter that much timewise, unless that top speed was done for very long, sustained stretches -- a ten mile stretch at 80mph isn't going to be that much faster than at 72mph, especially when you figure in the acceleration to top speed and deceleration from top speed. (I think the longest distance between BART stations IS around 10 miles, on the new Dublin-Pleasanton line. Anyone know?)
It may have had something to do with better riding stability at high speeds. Since BART trains run as fast as 85 mph, having wide gauge track helps smooth out the ride.
The story I heard on usenet (misc.transport.urban-transport) was that BART was designed around broad guage to provide stability in the face of strong winds.
As Steve Hoskins said, broad guage isn't needed for stability at speed. I invite anyone who doubts that fact to look at the 300km/h standard guage TGVs.
Stability in strong winds?
Hell, the ONLY place BART ever got up to 80 miles an hour was IN TUNNELS!!
A lot of elevated and grade level line between Oaklnd and Fremont has a command speed of 80 mph.
Stability in strong winds?
Hell, the ONLY place BART ever got up to 80 miles an hour was IN TUNNELS!!
Since when did the decisions of any transit authority make sense? :-)
With the weather holding up, I decided to bike out this morning to the Rockaways via Cross Bay Boulevard. And I deliberately stopped by the Gateway National Park's Jamaica Bay ranger station at Broad Channel to ask about the jurisdiction of the islands, where the A train runs through.
The ranger on duty told me that the islands are indeed part of Gateway Recreation Area (run by the US Dept. of the Interior much like Yellowstone Natn'l Park). Apparently, only the fenced in area of the right-of-way belongs jointly to the city/MTA. He also claimed -- and I have yet to hear this anywhere else -- that the ROW is due to be widdened for future REINSTALLMENT of Rockaway LIRR service!? (Is this an option of the planned JFK Express service?).
Doug aka BMTman
[The ranger on duty told me that the islands are indeed part of Gateway Recreation Area (run by the US Dept. of the Interior much like Yellowstone Natn'l Park). Apparently, only the fenced in area of the right-of-way belongs jointly to the city/MTA. He also claimed -- and I have yet to hear this anywhere else -- that the ROW is due to be widdened for future REINSTALLMENT of Rockaway LIRR service!? (Is this an option of the planned JFK Express service?).]
That's certainly news to me. In fact, I find it downright imcomprehensible *why* the LIRR would want to resume service to the Rockaways. The area's certainly far less popular as a vacation spot as had been the case when the LIRR last ran there. Nor is there enough of a population base to support commuter service. I'd say that the ranger's spent a little too much time in the wilderness :-)
Unless he really meant service along the Ozone-Rockaway line south until Howard Beach? That's the only thing I can think of other than the ranger has been hanging out too long on the nature trails :-)
"IF" this is true, it is pretty much a combination of politics and real estate. The city pretty much considers Rockaway prime beachfront property. For years they have been planning to get market rate housing - meaning $275,000 - $500,000 houses or condos; or rentals starting at maybe $1,700 per month.
Now, anybody with this type of money will not invest in Rockaway, not only because of the decay in some of the areas, but also because of its lack of adequate, quick transportation to and from Mid-town and Wall Street.
Granted, you could get to Wall Street, from Far Rockaway in less than an hour on the "A", provided there are no extensive delays, unfortunately, the "A" train carries a stigma of being a dangerous subway line. I don't agree with that, but never the less, that is the opinion of a lot of people.
As far as Mid-town is concerned, it could take anywhere from 1 hour and 15 minutes to 1 hour and 45 minutes and that is unacceptable.
I have old schedules of the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch and I noticed a trip from Penn Sta. to Rockaway Park was only 35 minutes.
So, as far as I can see, the only way to truly accomplish what the City wants is to revive the LIRR Rockaway Beach Line, or at least run a subway line along the POW (if communities of Woodhaven, Richmond Hill, and Glendale will allow it).
This is the only reason I can imagine the LIRR resuming service to Rockaway Beach.
That's pretty much what I was thinking, since this Park Ranger didn't seem like he was just "shooting the breeze". He was telling me the information as if it was something he got from another source.
As our fellow SubTalker Paul has noted, there is no listing of any work to be done on the Rockaway Line regarding the LIRR (at least for the next 10 years). I would guess that this Ranger only heard a rumor through the community -- or elsewhere -- about resurrecting LIRR service. I do believe, however, that IF the Arverne (sp?) area is redeveloped into "upscale" developments -- surely there would be an interest AND serious proposals for doing just that.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I think what we're discussing here actually argues for the line having been rebuilt as an LIRR service way back when. IOW, a premium fare service for a small population. After all, remember that most of the Rockaways are a barrier beach--two or three blocks wide.
But (1) at the time the LIRR was privately owned and (2) the demographic doesn't support a premium fare service.
I think the problem with current subway service is not so much a perception that the "A" line is unsafe, as that it is such a long haul. You have to take the "A" all the way downtown Manhattan, then thread through downtown Brooklyn, then almost to the end of the Liberty Avenue line before you finally get onto the Rockaway Line for a long haul across Jamaica Bay.
Let's face it. It's the transit equivalent of the taxi driver who takes the "scenic route" to JFK.
Since one of the original plans (hook up to the Queens Boulevard Line) is unlikely (too much construction, too much NIMBY, not enough trunk capacity) maybe we could revive a combination of an intermediate plan and a BRT operation from the 'teens (the century's teens, not my teens):
Reopen the old Rockaway r-o-w only as far as Jamaica Ave for a connection to the Jamaica Line. Put in the Jamaica Line third track and finally straighten out that walking speed mess at Crescent Street. Run express on Jamaica Ave. and Broadway, then run uptown through Chrystie. Then, for good measure, run 70-75 mph across Jamaica Bay.
More direct. Faster. Uses available capacity. Good for other sections of Brooklyn and Queens, too.
Hey, my pipe dreams are no worse than anybody elses. Are they?
I have a different idea. Before 1968, the city owned the TBTA. In 1968, it received 66 percent of the TBTA surplus. Today, it gets 50 percent -- less in some years, although that is "impossible." One way to make that more fair is to increase commuter rail service in the city.
My scenario is that LIRR trains go direct from Far Rockaway to Penn/GCT over a reopened Rockaway ROW, with stops further on in Queens, and the NIMBYs be dammned. You build a new station at Liberty, where (if you transfer to the subway) you owe no additional fare. Then the conductors collect a second fare from through riders -- who would have a Metrocard of a different color. The LIRR and TA would split the fares for subway riders -- LIRR gets them inbound, the TA gets them outbound. The Rockway Park link could be converted to light rail, and descend and run at street level to Belle Harbor and Neposit.
With good timing, those living in those neighborhoods could be in Midtown in less than an hour. The TA would save the cost of a subsidy-draining service. Service on a schedule makes more sense than an attempt a frequent service in such a lightly populated area.
Remember how many Howard Beach riders rode the JFK express, which saved little time but avoided all the stops on the subway? How about all those express buses from the outer areas of the city, which run non-stop but save little of no time? There is a market for premium fare service for long trips, and the MTA should serve it. The poor of the Rockaways are more likely to work locally, or not at all, and don't use the subway either. The transfer option would provide a service to those who do.
Three points:
First, Triborough was never "owned" by the City. It was a self-contained state chartered entity. If it was "owned" by anyone, it was owned by the bondholders. Its mayor was Robert Moses. This is not Moses-bashing. It's just a fact.
The city desperately wanted TBTA surpluses for transit. More importantly, it wanted to increase those surpluses by raising tolls, which it could not do without state support and some heavy dealing with the bondholders. Remember, TBTA money was not supposed to go to the City, or the State, or the TA or LIRR or MNRR, it was supposed to go to facilities for motorists and to pay off bondholders.
Second point.
I have no argument with your ideas for commuter service within the City. But the LIRR, at least, has a continuing crisis of capacity. This is bad for the City not only because there is insufficient local service, but because a person who can't take the railroad is going to drive, increasing highway congestion, eating tax dollars (in highway construction) and increasing pollution in the region.
Right now, the LIRR is literally in competition with the NYS DOT (not the City) for the ability to provide transportation to the entire eastern quadrant of the commuting region.
Third point.
City-suburban infighting over transit benefits none of us. If the bulk of motorists increases and they get over their apathy over continual TBTA toll increases and the transfer of that money to rails (City or Suburban) we're all in trouble.
Look, no one in the city is against improving transit in the suburbs. As a practical (and fiscal) matter, its the other way around. Given the way the state operates, I think its about time city "representatives" said "US TOO" on education and transportation matters. In the past, the "US TOO" has been more money for the hospitals and social service organizations -- far in excess what of what is required to provide health care and social services.
The City didn't object when NJ just changed the PATH deal to allow vastly more airport surpluses to be diverted to PATH. A few years later, the Port Authority announced it could no longer afford to build a transit connection to LaGuardia, because it had kept the PATH fare and tolls below MTA levels. Is THAT regional thinking?
Look, no one in the city is against improving transit in the suburbs. As a practical (and fiscal) matter, its the other way around.
Nonsense! The Straphanger's Campaign, Ruth Messinger, Carol Greitzer (when she was a member of the MTA board) and every other NYC politician lines up for suburb bashing.
Given the way the state operates, I think its about time city "representatives" said "US TOO" on education and transportation matters. In the past, the "US TOO" has been more money for the hospitals and social service organizations -- far in excess what of what is required to provide health care and social services.
Then it's an argument of city priorities vs. other city priorities. But the suburbs make a much more appetizing "enemy." What do you suppose would happen if some city politician said "Uh ... if we could transfer a quarter of city Medicaid spending to transit construction, we could fully fund the Second Avenue subway proposal in a single year."
[Then it's an argument of city priorities vs. other city priorities. But the suburbs make a much more appetizing "enemy." What do you suppose would happen if some city politician said "Uh ... if we could transfer a quarter of city Medicaid spending to transit construction, we could fully fund the Second Avenue subway proposal in a single year."]
If that actually happened (watch out for the flying pigs), not only would there be a Second Avenue line, but the city's per capita Medicaid spending probably would still be far above the national average.
I'm still trying to figure out how NYC manages to spend more on Medicaid than does the entire state of California.
[I'm still trying to figure out how NYC manages to spend more on Medicaid
than does the entire state of California.]
Well, there is obviously somebody who's bank account that is getting full on the backs of the tax payers.
Doug aka BMTman
If the money were actually going to real health care you could guess every single poor person in the City would be living to the age of 120 in perfect health.
And NOBODY in the city would pay for medical services, it would all be free.
I wonder if I should ask by boss if I could borrow a few big posterboards I have prepared for the 2nd Avenue Subway hearing?
They show 1) city vs. U.S. local government revenue and spending as a share of personal income by broad category, with Medicaid and Social Services (not to mention taxes) high and education, transportation, and parks low.
2) Shows one place the money goes -- health and social services employment in the city rising up in a straight line. Of course, they only added 15,000 jobs last year. "Please Governor Pataki Please." This is the Democratic patronage machine.
3) Shows the other place the money goes -- local government earnings as a share of total earnings in the city, upstate, NY suburbs, NJ, and the U.S. The suburbs and upstate are WAY up there. This is Repulican patronage machine. All state taxpayers are paying for the upstate flab, but the suburbs are paying for themselves (hence Nassau's future bankrupcy).
Couldn't identify it as City Planning work without getting in DEEP trouble, and probably wouldn't get to talk until 4 a.m. Still, its worth considering.
Larry, might I recommend you show up at that meeting in a bullet-proof vest ;-)
Sounds like you might be ruffling lots of feathers (mostly from overstuffed Turkeys, I might add).
Later, Doug aka BMTman
Regarding "premium fare" service from the Rockaways ... in a sense, that already exists (LIRR from Far Rockaway). If Arverne and adjacent areas do get redeveloped on a larger scale than is now the case, it might well be that more people will be using this service. Even with the required backtracking it might be faster than the slow A train through Brooklyn. It could be that demand would exist for increased A service *to* Far Rockaway in the morning (and from F.R. in the evening) to take advantage of the LIRR service.
The Far Rockaway A is a long way from the more prosperous parts of the Rockways, and its roundabout route makes for a slow ride. It it were faster, I'd say just re-connect the two lines and run the LIRR to Rockaway Park, with a transfer to the A right on the peninsula. But that would take too long.
When the LIRR Jamaica Bay trestle burned, they continued service to Rockaway Park by Valley Stream. Not only is it a long way around, I don't think city riders will want to pay the $6.25 peak fare where they now pay $1.50, or purchase a $135.00 monthly pass which takes them only to a handful of stations in the City where they now have a MetroCard for $63.00 which takes them all over the City.
True, Paul.
Ya know what I think? If the city were to sell the Rockaways to Nassau County (if they should desire to acquire it) -- and the "no man's land areas" were re-developed -- then we would certainly see LIRR service to Rockaway Park restored.
But of course that is HIGHLY unlikely.
PS The Rockaways are high-way there -- they get their power from LIPA anyhow, heh,heh :-0
Doug aka BMTman
Oh, goody!
Just what the Rockaways need. The Nassau County Republican Organization, famed for Honest Government.
How do you spell "Out of the frying pan..." ;-)
[Oh, goody!
Just what the Rockaways need. The Nassau County Republican Organization, famed for Honest Government.]
The Rockaways might be able to teach Nassau a "lesson." Look at it this way - while it's not a pleasant thing to say, there certainly are quite a few ex-cons living in the Rockaways. And it's likely that the top brass in the Nassau County government will be finding themselves behind bars soon (at least we all *hope* it'll be true). So maybe their newest constituents can instruct them in coping with prison life!
(Nassau Republicans on their way to jail). Isn't the head of the Democratic Party ALREADY in jail? You don't have any good choices here in the Vampire State.
[(Nassau Republicans on their way to jail). Isn't the head of the Democratic Party ALREADY in jail? You don't have any good choices here in the Vampire State.]
I'll go WAY out on a limb and say that Nassau County should somehow become part of NYC once again. Crazy idea? Well, maybe, and I suspect it's got a snowball's chance of ever happening. But it would be a potential win-win situation for both sides. People in Nassau pay stupefyingly high property taxes, and I can't see what they get in return - other than a bloated, incompetent, kleptomanic county government, that is. Oh yes, Nassau has "good schools." Or does it? My guess is that if you make reasonable allowances for neighborhood incomes and educational levels, city schools do just as well. In other words, there are many low-performing schools in the city because there are many poor neighborhoods inhabited by single-parent families with low expectations when it comes to education. And there are many high-performing schools in Nassau because precisely the opposite is the case. Point is, it shouldn't matter whether a particular neighborhood is part of the city or Nassau County, when it comes to school quality.
Peter that's basically true about the school situation. Case in point -- schools in the city that are in "good neighborhoods" (or stable neighborhoods) tend to have schools with high-productivity that are comparable to many suburban schools. So on that point City-schools vs. Suburban schools fairly on an even scale.
Doug aka BMTman
I can't speak for Nassau, but the thing we have in Suffolk in exchange for our sky-high property taxes is some real semblance of community control. This is because the bureaucrats are ultimately answerable to local taxpayers, not to politicians from a different neighborhood or even a different borough.
If some school is failing, the local bureaucrats don't have anyone to pass the buck to, and don't they know it.
Also if parents have a real complaint with the curriculum, the decision isn't made by some ivory tower dude trying to balance the pressures of a million diverse parents and dozens of political groups.
I'm not painting this as some kind of paradise. We did, after all, have the Roosevelt school district taken over by the State. I'm just saying that the local control makes it harder for the aparatchiks to hide.
The gap in school quality is over-rated, but money does buy something. Would a summer school program in Nassau lose track of 10,000 students or so? Nassau has three people doing a job, one of whom works. NYC has one -- who does not work. The schools are also newer. The NYC schools only educate the children of parents who complain, work the system, and raise hell.
However, if the NYC schools were reorganized, and spending rose to the national average, they could be pretty good. But that is not in the interest of anyone that counts.
Add in the city income taxes, and you'll find that city taxes are about the same at the same level of income. Given the huge social service burden Nassau does NOT have, charging that much in taxes is quite a trick. But you don't save money in NYC.
And it's likely that the top brass in the Nassau County Government will be finding themselves behind bars soon (at least we all *hope* it'll be true). So maybe their newest constituents can instruct them in coping with prison life!
While politicians in general, and Republicans in particular, tend to 'do the crimes,' so to speak, they almost never 'do' anywhere near enough time.
Just ask Nixon, Liddy, Reagan, or Ollie North....
Whoa! Politicians, unfortunately, seem to have lost sight of the fact that "public service" means "serving the public" rather than "being served BY the public". But I'll venture to say that neither party has a monopoly on crooked politicians. Just ask the four members of the Asbury Park (NJ) school board currently in jail or under indictment, or the mayor of Camden.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whoa! Politicians, unfortunately, seem to have lost sight of the fact that "public service" means "serving the public" rather than "being served BY the public".
I think this is true of leaders in both the public and private sectors. In business, "customer service" now means "customers serve us." The bottom line is that we the public get royally screwed over while our leadership escapes legal punishment like teflon escapes dirt.
But I'll venture to say that neither party has a monopoly on crooked politicians.
True. It's just that the crimes of the right wing seem to be far more severe than those committed by the center-right (aka Democrats). Undermining a nation's fundamental principles a la Nixon, North, and (hack, spit) Exon is orders of magnitude more dangerous than the run-of-the-mill political lying, cheating and stealing committed by the likes of Clinton and various local Democrats politicians.
Well put. Time's are ripe for a much needed "third party".
Doug aka BMTman
YOU MEAN JESSE VENTURA !!
Or I could be talking about Al "Granpa" Lewis of the Green Party, here in New York.
YOU MEAN JESSE VENTURA !!
Bill Newkirk
"third party"
Say, this has transit relevance!
Hylan railed against the BMT and IRT. "Not a dime's worth of difference," I can hear him say.
So we got the IND which eventually took over the BMT and IRT. Which led to the NYCTA, which led to the MTA...
Are we all happy?
Well, down home there's another effort at starting a third party - the Southern party, dedicated to peacefully extricating us from the situation we've been in since the late unpleasantness of 1861-65.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeah, I guess the south really hates all the subsidies they get, year in, year out, from the north and midwest, via the US Treasury.
And, of course, the south would be much better off if Eisenhower and Kennedy and Johnson and maybe even Nixon had not forced them to join the twentieth century in the civil rights era...
Subsidies? Get real! The south receives the lowest share of education and health care dollars from the federal government of any part of the country. They get significantly lower agricultural subsidies than the Midwest, tobacco notwithstanding (over 50% of that flows to one state, North Carolina, and that number has been decreasing significantly in recent years). They get a comparable amount of highway dollars and a lower amount of mass transit dollars. Looks to me like it's the other way around.
As for the civil rights issues, yes, the south needed a kick in the tail 50 years ago. But where, in the '60s, were the biggest race riots? Detroit, New York, LA - not the south. And the civil rights issues that the south did have were the product of a vocal minority, not of the majority.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Interesting thing about the South during the '60s. A little known fact is that President Kennedy made alot of concessions to the South to end segregation and join the rest of America: most of NASA's organizational activities were setup in southern states for that reason. Ever notice that? (Texas, Alabama, Florida)
I found this little detail in a VERY GOOD book called: 'Angle of Attack -- Harrison Storms and the Race to the Moon' (There is also ALOT of info on Grumman and their building of the LEM). Check it out.
Doug aka BMTman
(Times are ripe).
I wrote Tom Golisano and told him as much. All you'd have to do is knock enough Democrats out in the state Assembly, and Republicans in the state Senate, so that the lead party does not have a majority. Then, you demand reforms in exchange for political support. Hell, we could probably recruit candidates right off this page. Haven't heard back, though. I guess he just likes running for Governor every four years.
The thing about the Nassau Republicans is that they are the direct descendents (in some cases biological) of the Brooklyn Democrats who sucked this borough dry and left it in ruins. I'm hoping term limits will kill off their remnants in Brooklyn and Queens (ie. Donald Manes, Meade Esposito) once and for all. After they finish off Nassau, which part of the state will they move onto next? Suffolk?
You're almost talking about a European / Israeli form of coalition government. It might be OK for the first two years or so, but it would soon degenerate into a "wag the dog" situation (classic, not the movie) where politicians vie for the support of some single-issue group opposed by 90% of the populace to put together a coalition every bit as corrupt as the machine politics we had before, but instead of pandering to their own party's core constituency, they now have to pander to the fringe group, which has been given the power to bring down the government by leaving.
I'm sure we can all think of any number of committed single-issue groups who can't get their legislation through, but have sufficient numbers to be part of a coalition.
My quixotic favorite is to allow an explicit "no" vote for significant offices. If "no" gets more votes than any of the candidates, all the candidates except the human who got the most votes can't run again until the next general election.
For example, the Democrats put up Huey, the Republicans Dewey and the Conservatives Louie.
"No" gets 40%, Huey gets 30%, Dewey gets 25% and Louie 5%
Huey gets to stay in the race, but the Republicans and Conservatives have to see if Donald and Daisy are interested in running. Maybe, just maybe, the parties whose candidates were dumped will have to think harder about who they're putting up.
My favorite idea to deal with the problem of multi-party coelitions is to dump the idea of geographic representation. If party A gets 20% of the popular vote, they get 20% of the seats, period. Getting rid of districts means that nearly everyone is represented in the legislature, even if they voted for a non-governing party. The broad base of support required to earn enough seats to govern would greatly weaken the ability of one-issue parties to bring down sitting governments.
Where the 2 lines were once connected by Mott Av is now a big Waldbaums Shopping Center. So I guess connecting them is out of the question.
The shopping center was mostly vacant and decrepit, with a no name supermarket just hanging on, the last time I was out there for a field survey. But lots of people parked and rided in the lot -- thinking that at least some activity would reduce the chance of their car being robbed. The official park and ride lots were empty.
Has it been re-constructed, or are you just remembering a time in the past?
I was there about 5 years ago, unless I'm thinking of a different shopping center. They never should have tore down that connection in the first place. That would have been a great LIRR/subway connecting point instead of the Bay Ridge Line & the "L"!!
A Waldbaum's could stop an important rail connection?
And let's not forget that Walbaum's parent, the A&P Company, is pretty much selling off the Walbaum's chain to smaller "ethnic" supermarkets.
Doug aka BMTman
[And let's not forget that Walbaum's parent, the A&P Company, is pretty much selling off the Walbaum's chain to smaller "ethnic" supermarkets.]
There are some large new Waldbaum's on Long Island, so I would think their policy applies only in the city. In any event, the last time I made the LIRR-A connection at Far Rockaway, that plaza seemed pretty much abandoned. It shouldn't present much obstacle to a rebuilt track connection (if anything of the sort actually were planned, which surely isn't the case).
Perhaps - I'm not entirely sure what their strategic plans are. I've not been in a Waldbaum's so I can't speak from experience, but from their ads I get the impression they are a lower-line supermarket, whereas the A&P flagship stores are high-line stores. I do some shopping in a new A&P about two miles from our New Jersey house - they have excellent fresh fruit and vegetables and a few unique items that I like - but I can't afford to do my major grocery shopping there. They closed the only two Waldbaum stores in this area about a year ago; one was replaced by an A&P, the other was in a seriously declining shopping center and remains vacant.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The shopping center has value, in that there is almost no place in NYC where you can build a new supermarket under our zoning laws -- thanks to our City Council which voted to help monopolists keep control of the food supply in poor neighborhoods. Someone might try to rebuild the center. If the MTA wants an easement, it should buy it.
As a matter of fact, there are plenty of people in Far Rockaway/Arverne willing to pay for premium fare service to Manhattan during rush hours. Currently, Far Rockaway has an express bus, QM17, operated by the Green Bus Lines. Unfortunately, they only operate two trips in the AM and PM rush in peak direction only. As of late, these buses are becoming quite crowded and they will have add more trips. But that is basically a bus subject.
I feel that more people would utilize the Far Rockaway LIRR train if the station wasn't located in a very desolate area, where there is no stores, people or other transportation connections except a bus (Q113) that runs in one direction only and that is to Far Rockaway.
If this line was extended the five blocks to Mott Avenue, without having to demolish the shopping center, I know more people will utilize it.
I think the Waldbaum's name survives on Long Island for its name recognition with the many ex-New Yorkers who live there.
It had a resonence in the communities of Brooklyn and Queens, especially with the Jewish community, at least as long as Julia Waldbaum was still alive. For example, it carried an appetizing section when most supermarkets didn't.
In recent years (before or after AP took over? I dunno) it has been a management mess. I do all the supermarket shopping in my family and go to different supermarkets for different sales, etc.
Waldbaum's always seems to have the least helpful staff, the longest lines, expensive deli. The newer one in Lindenhurst is the only one in the area that charges you ransom to get a shopping cart.
Some years ago they ran an ad campaign which said in essence "our lines are longer but our prices are lower." That went over as well as running the A train local during rush hour.
That's the other reason Walbaum's got replaced in the city by other supermarkets like C-Town or Compare -- the low-prices they claimed only applied to actual sales items. There regular prices weren't much cheaper than any other supermarket chain.
There are two Walbaum's still in Brooklyn that I know of: one that's here in Canarsie (frequented by the older Jewish population) and another in the Georgetown Mall. Although these neighorhoods today have a large Caribbean population, they appreciate a good Deli-selection and that is why those Walbaum's are financialy better off and have been saved.
Key Food is big here in NYC, but not on the Island. Much like King Kullen is Long Island related and not found in the five boroughs (unless there is one in Queens I am not aware of?).
Paul, you might find it interesting that the suburban-based Edward's chain recently opened a supermarket in Brooklyn. It is in the location of the old Flatbush Ave. Macy's spot by Tilden Ave. across from Sears. The city even made some street changes whereby E. 21st now runs down from Tilden to alleviate traffic congestion from Edwards (E. 21st used to Deadend behind the old Loewman's (sp?) and Loew's Kings Theatre). I think that street was Duryea Place?
Doug aka BMTman
There is a Waldbaums in Starrett City as well. Not too far from Pathmark.......
3TM
34ST. Transfer to the M4, M16, M34, and the Q32. Connection to the Amtrak, LIRR, and NJT. The next station will be 42-Times SQ/PABT. Transfer available to the A,C,E,N,R,1,7,9 trains. M6, M7, M10, M16, M27, M42, M104 on the upper level. Connection to the PABT. Stand Clear of the closing doors...........
How much sun has that ranger been getting?
It's possible that on some official map somewhere there is a provision for LIRR joint use--the connection between the LIRR and TA wasn't severed immediately.
But with JEK service on the old Rockaway Branch considered an almost dead letter, I can't see anyone wanting to reestablish an extra cost railroad service to such a small population as exists on the Rockaways.
I know that the LIRR makes no mention of anything concerning the Rockaway Line in its 20-year plan.
>>I know that the LIRR makes no mention of anything concerning the Rockaway Line in its 20-year
plan. <<<
Anything interesting in that 20 year plan besides the GCT connection?
Actually, GCT isn't in the plan. That's a separate item with connected issues including providing feeder service for JFK and more local stops in the City.
Highlights of the plan include:
Third track Queens to Hicksville
Double track Farmingdale to Ronkonkoma
Electrification to Yaphank (Main Line) and Speonk (Montauk Line)
Double track and electrify Central Branch, Bethpage to Babylon
Nothing really earth-shaking. Just better operation on some existing lines.
I wish they'd double track Great Neck to Port Washington. So many trains are cancelled because of that single track...
They'd never get the good folks of Plandome to agree to that! Plus, isn't the Manhasset station ROW too narrow to accept double track?
Wayne
Yeah, I know. What's done is done with the PW branch, but when the GN-PW leg was built in 1898 I don't think they anticipated a heavy demand. But as it is there are too may cancellations--even a light rain throws off the whole schedule.
What are the LIRR's single track sections? In Nassau, there's the entire West Hempstead branch, the Hempstead between Garden City and Hempstead, the PW from Great Neck to PW and the Long Beach branch over the bridge between Island Park and Long Beach. I'm not as familiar with the lines in Suffolk. I'm not sure where things narrow down east of Huntington, Farmingdale and Patchogue...
Chuck
From memory.
Port Jefferson from east of Huntington. Trains can pass at least at Stony Brook.
Main Line from Republic to Ronkonkoma. There is a long passing siding at new Deer Park station. I'm not sure, there may also another siding around C.I. and/or Brentwood.
When the Main Line was electrified, the LIRR was given the choice: "you can have double track or can have electric. You choose." This is the kind of choice highway builders don't have to make: "You can have a two-lane grade separated highway OR you can have a six lane highway with traffic lights." Yeah, right.
Montauk from west of Patchogue to Montauk.
This is an important issue, because single track lines have no (or almost no) reverse rush hour service. Likewise, both tracks from Hicksville to Jamaica are mostly direction of heavy traffic only.
[Main Line from Republic to Ronkonkoma. There is a long passing siding at new Deer Park station. I'm not sure, there may also another siding around C.I. and/or Brentwood.
When the Main Line was electrified, the LIRR was given the choice: "you can have double track or can have electric. You choose." This is the kind of choice highway builders don't have to make: "You can have a two-lane grade separated highway OR you can have a six lane highway with traffic lights." Yeah, right.]
You're correct about the long siding east of Deer Park. In addition to Deer Park, Brentwood, Central Islip and Ronkonkoma are two-track stations. Come to think of it, I would say that a substantial portion of the Main Line between Farmingdale and Ronkonkoma is in fact double-tracked. Surely it wouldn't cost a fortune to double-track the remaining segments?
It's single track through Wyandanch to just west of Deer Park.
This includes the Pinelawn and former Republic stations.
The Bethpage-to-Babylon Main Line spur is also single track.
Oyster Bay line through former Mill Neck station is single track.
Wayne
In Nassau you also have the line that goes from Farmingdale to Babylon (Only partially in Nassau)
Right, I think it's called the Central Branch.
Is the Oyster Bay line double tracked all the way? I think someone once told me it is single track beyond Glen Cove or so, but can't recall.
Apologies to the many SubTalk regulars who are O.B. line regulars. I forgot completely about that line when I was counting. Guess I'm no different than LIRR management.
Chuck
Although I'm not positive, I'm pretty sure the Oyster Bay Line has 2 tracks all the way through. I know for a fact it is double tracked to Glen Head! You might have confused it with the Port Wash. line which is partly single tracked.
[ Although I'm not positive, I'm pretty sure the Oyster Bay Line has 2
tracks all the way through. I know for a fact it is double tracked to
Glen Head! You might have confused it with the Port Wash. line which
is partly single tracked. ]
It's single track from Locust tower to Oyster bay, save for a short siding west of Oyster Bay station.
It was at one time single track from Glen Cove to Oyster Bay, but the second track was added in that section long ago (before 1900, perhaps).
Here are the sections of Single track that I know of:
Atlantic City line from the Delaire Bridge to Atlantic City (The station ahs more than one track), Port Jervis line North fo Suffern NY (and that used to be two tracks!) and Raritan Valley Line from Raritan to High Bridge.
The Dinky (Princeton Junction to Princeton, also know as the PJ&B- Princeton Junction and Back) is also one track.
MAY I ADD THE BOONTON LINE TO THE LIST
the gladstone branch is single track. there passing siding so two way traffic can be run
The Boonton Line is single track, but only from just west of Great Notch to Denville. Also a short stretch from the Hackensack River bridge to where the Boonton joins the Main Line.
The Pascack Valley Line is also single track.
It runs only southbound in the AM, and only northbound in the PM.
Technically, north of Suffern,the track belongs to NS (ALMOST said Conrail!), but is dispatched out of Hoboken by NJT north to Port...The descision to single track it however,was solely Conrails...
Ah yes! The line is *operated* by NJT,*for* Metro North and *uses* tracks now owned by NS. There is tons of conjecture that double track might be restored- we'll see!
Nice scenery there:went through there on 614- three times, one a nightmare trip of only 30 minutes in Port Jervis due to mech problems with 614 left on the side at campbell Hall.
The big problem right now being, of course, NS wants to increase their traffic to compete with CSX over on the West Shore, but MN wants to be able to increase service if the need arises....(I heard that since the local stops in Jersey have been eliminated, ridership from Orange Co is up about 10% in the last year)
I'm sure someone already added this, but the Oyster Bay is single track from Locust interlocking to Oyster Bay. Near the station, IIRC, there's a short passing siding (so a train can leave the station while another waits to enter), and then after the station, there is a small holding yard with about 4 tracks.
This is in Nassau County.
Not with the NEW High Level Platforms at Oyster Bay. The passing siding was left intact but if an inservice train took it, it would not stop at the high level platforms. Where the old station is (no crew house) the yard now is 3 or four tracks. The bypass track at the High Level platforms ends just before the first grade corssing (I think).
I've been held at OB waiting for the East Bound, what normaly happens is they will annouce the train your on in the station (High Level Platform) is out of service. Get everyone off, move it back to the old station and let the Eastbound arrive. LIRR may or may not state the arriving train is the one that would return. Sometimes it too yards and we wait for the orginal train to come back out and sometimes you just get on the arriving train.
The last one, is that the line which crosses Wellwood Av in Lindenhurst just south of 109 and the S.S. Pway?
Yes.
This line doesn't have any stations (any more). I believe the issue there is the ability to operate electric trains from east of Babylon onto the new 3-track main line.
It would be useful if they reopened the station that existed long ago at Wellwood near 109, but then they'd have to operate some kind of regular service.
[ It would be useful if they reopened the station that existed long ago
at Wellwood near 109, but then they'd have to operate some kind of
regular service. ]
(1) The LIRR doesn't open stations, they close them.
(2) Why would they have to provide regular service? There's plenty of stations out there already with very limited service -- LIC, HP Ave, greenport stations, etc. Surely a station on the central branch could be given service as often as LIC or HP Ave, if the trains currently using the branch would just stop there.
(Nothing earth shattering -- just better operation of some existing lines). I have no problem with the added tracks and electrification out there, but we could use some improvements in like that in the city. Mostly connections, as discussed before. Is the DeKalb to Rutgers connection in the TA plan? I don't think so.
Which city lines are single track? Which city lines need to be electrified? Which city lines don't have reverse rush hour service?
9/5/99
On an excursion into the city today I rode the #2 to Eastern Parkway station and Franklin Avenue stations in Brooklyn. One of these stations is supposed to have a transfer to the (S) Franklin Shuttle.
I didn't see anything even that would give a clue to a free transfer,not even new signs covered up awaiting the reopening of the line. I read in a post in SubTalk that the shuttle reopens Oct.3rd.
Any explanations out there !
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I posted the Oct. 3rd opening info. However, since that is a Sunday, I would assume that the idea is that the service will commence sometime that week or thereabouts. Again, my friend mentioned that Oct. 3 was the projected date for trains to start operating on the Franklin Shuttle -- but not necessarily in revenue service -- indicating "trial runs" of equipment over the infrastructure.
But I would hazard a guess that the line will officially open for passenger service around the middle of October, if no problems arise.
Perhaps the construction on the connection at Eastern Parkway is behind schedule, since it definitely was one of the much anticipated improvements the line was going to receive. Service could be instituted on the line while work continues on the connecting tunnel -- this would not be something new.
Doug aka BMTman
Its there all right. Signs arent up yet. Transfer will be reached via stairs at the west end of the IRT platform. These stairs have always been there waiting for the transfer to be built. In recent years they were boxed in by a tile wall (just recently removed) and they led to the District 32 transit police office (since moved to Carroll St adjacent to the shuttle ROW). The stairs are now hidden by plywood barracades. I was just in all this area on Friday. It looks pretty amazing, particularly compared to what it once looked like.
So where was the Transit Poloice Station in refernce to all of this???
3TM
Park Place-WTC. Transfer available to on the upper level to the A,C,E:8Av Express and local. M9,M10, and M22 on the street. Connection to the PATH service. The next station will be Chambers. Transfer available to the 1 and 9 service. M22 on the upper level. Stand Clear.......
So they built a new transfer using portions of a pre-existing structure so that they could avoid making the complex accessible?
-Hank
9/5/99
I did some riding today and rode those 9500 series R-36's on the (6).
I've seen slides over the years in the original paint as well as in fox red/black/silver on either Bway #1 or #6. I was wondering why these series of cars are on the mainline since when new they furnished all service to the World's Fair. Could the Flushing line be of surplus and they get sent over to mainline where demand for service is greater. Or did I just answer my own question! Anybody know something ??
Bill Newkirk
SEPTA's M-4 subway car is one of the best ones for subway buffs that I know of. Instead of the tiny window on the front and back doors, there is a huge window on the door and a large window to the left of the door, with three seats behind that window. PATCO has that also, except the windows aren't as large. Which other subway cars have a window like that?
You are sometimes in for a treat on the Wash/DC Metro. Depending on the position of the door to the T/O cab, you are sometimes able to see out of a large picture window on the front of the train.
The door for the T/O has two positions. It can either shut off the cab, or it can close to shut off the entire width of the train. In the former position, the passengers have access to a few seats that are adjacent to the cab and in front of the window. In the later position, those seats are part of the full-width cab.
I think that the door is in the "railfan window" position on the tail end of the train, and in the full-width position on the front, where the the T/O is.
Correct me if I am wrong--it is only a guess on my part based on limited experience.
Brandon Bostian
SEPTA's B-IV cars on the Broad Street Line have the same feature, but AFAIK the T/O end the cab door is at full width.
Peace,
Big D
Since the Broad Street line is OPTO the full-width cab must be in place in the operator's position. However, you can get a slightly murky view thru the smoked glass from the front seat.
This is one area in which the old cars were better. In those, there was a third window on the opposite side which could be used for railfan viewing, but it was high and required one to either stand, 'sit' on one's knees, or stand on the seat. I always preferred the door spot with the window open and, on the South Broad cars, the vent in the lower section of the door open also.
In reference to the first post on this subject, I don't know the exact sizes, but I wouldn't say that the M-4's front window is 'much larger' than that on the PATCO car. The PATCO car is wider (by over a foot) and the end door is much narrower. If I were a bettor, I would say that PATCO's is bigger in size, but your point is taken - both are great for railfans.
Bob your right the PATCO windows are larger for the railfan seats than that of the M-4s.
When the operator uses it for a cab they have the full front of the train The glass is dark bewteen the passenger and operators comparment but you can see through a bit but it is not easy When outside it is easier to see out the front through the dark windows.
When they are not used for cabs the door sections off the drivers area and opens up to the storm door and a passenger seat to the left of the cab.
The operators don't always leave the door open. It will be closed even when it is the end of the train taking away valuable seats and standing room at rush hour.
It as about the best viewing window you could possibly have on any subway car. You can sit in any of the (3) double seats opposite the operator's cab and get a great front view, the front seat being the best. Sometimes if you start at 69th st. or Frankford, if it's not quite time to leave, the operator will let you look inside the cab. The array of indicators and switches are awesome! Also, sometimes another SEPTA worker will open a service panel in back of the cab, full of indicator lights and write something in his/her report.
Long live fun riding the M4's!
Chuck Greene
Nah, the Almond Joys were more fun - an *openable* railfan window!!! litterally a *blast* The 2 person railfan seat on patco is nice too. Kinda like a slow motion roller coaster at times :)
That's what I miss most about the Almond Joys. During the winter, people would yell at you for opening the window, but I'd do it anyway. It was the only thing that would really wake me up in the morning.
I also miss the sound of the Almond Joys. You can still hear the ca-chunk-ca-chunks an M-4 makes on the elevated but it's muffled by the soundproofing. It was a real experience. I'd take an Almond Joy over an M-4 any day.
That window - aaaaaaaah, you opened it, and you felt like you were
IN the tunnel when the horn blew.
Which other subway cars have a window like that?
Chicago, up to (but not including) the 3200 series cars. Before OPTO, you could sit at the very front and have the same view as the train operator. Now, you have to sit (or stand) one seat length behind the operator's position, because the operator uses that area to open/close the doors opposite of the cab.
--Mark
Anyone out there know how many cars will comprise the Franklin Shuttle trains? How many cars to be allotted for the service? How many trains will operate at any given time? How long are the platforms and what is the maximum train length?
Mike H
What I heard was after the all R-68's are made into units, The last nine cars of the fleet (2916-2924) will remain as single units for Franklin Shuttle service. Train length will be two cars. Platforms are supposed to be only 160' in length. I think that is a mistake. Platforms should be 600' so there is an option for running Brighton line trains to Franklin Ave. (GO's,etc.) Does anyone have more info?
you've got it right, but the platforms are 170' long, not 160'.
David
What I heard was after the all R-68's are made into units, The last nine cars of the fleet (2916-2924) will remain as single units for Franklin Shuttle service. Train length will be two cars. Platforms are supposed to be only 160' in length. I think that is a mistake. Platforms should be 600' so there is an option for running Brighton line trains to Franklin Ave. (GO's,etc.) Does anyone have more info?
Even when there is a GO and no service beyond the Park, they run 8 32's and turn them over the local track through Prospect Park onto the Shuttle Tracks and back out on the CI bound local track.
This is what they did the last time there was no service past Prospect Park due to a GO, they ran Shuttle buses to Paciffic Street entrance. You exit Prospect Park though the never used back door (left of token booth) out to the buses.
I asked to stay on while they turned the train but was told no. I don't know why they didn't use a full 10 car train, maybe because of switch clearance and this was before the rebuild of the shuttle line.
You mean wasting money on quadrupling the length of the platforms just to support a completely useless train reroute that would probably never happen anyway?
Well. Isn't there free transfers at Botanic Garden and Franklin Ave??? If for some reason the trains can't run beyond Prospect Park, they can be re-routed to make transfers to other lines. If a GO is in affect, Two cars on the shuttle would never handle all those people. Especially those going to the Franklin Avenue IRT.
[...] completely useless train reroute [...]
What is your confidence level that we will someday have four usuable tracks on the Manhattan Bridge vs. zero usable tracks?
"An ounce of prevention" ... and all that.
If they really wanted a bridge reroute, they should have extended the open cut portion and hooked it into the Fulton Local. On the other hand, for the same money they could probably have hooked the H tracks directly into the Cranberry Tunnel.
9/6/99
This latest quiz can be found on the (B) or (M) West end train leaving 36th St going southbound to Ninth Ave. Unfortunatly the T.A.
erected some storage building there so refer to your memory or old photos.
When ramping up to daylight and just before entering the old brick lined tunnel. There are two tunnel pockets in the wall on your far right. One pocket suggests room for a 2 track tunnel and one pocket suggests room for a one track tunnel. I was told years ago that one of those pockets,either the one or two track pocket was for a bypass tunnel for the South Brooklyn Railway. The tunnels were never constructed and although graffittied the pockets today remain. The $1.50 Metrocard question is what was the intention for those pockets.
Was my answer for one being used for the SBK right ??
Bill Newkirk
Actually, I thought those pockets were used at one point, because just west of Ninth Ave right at the entrance for the CI-bound track there is a trackless tunnel entrance which is pointed toward the interlocking at Ninth Avenue. Anyone know for sure if anything was built?
Last Saturday, I was riding an R68A B Train on the Manhattan Bridge and I saw 8 car Slant R40s on the D Train. Does anybody know about this?
Just a guess but maybe there was lack of equipment so they used the Q train slants for that train?.
Peace Out
-Clayton
Wouldn't be an 8-car train of 60-footers; more than likely ten cars.
It also wouldn't surprise me if they put up a slant on the "D" if they were short some equipment; most of the slants are resting on the weekend.
Wayne
If that was in fact a D train of slant R-40s, I would have loved to have taken it up CPW. The slants could really strut their stuff on that stretch!
i saw it too,on saturday going to coney island. wasnt sure if it was D or B. anyone know,let me know.
I can verify there was a B (as in Bravo) train of Slant 40's running on Saturday; I rode it from 34th Street to West 4th Street (2 min, 18 seconds :-).
On weekends the B line borrows R40 Slants from the Q line. They go in service at Coney Island.
Are you sure sure the destination signs had the D on it? I saw it too when I was walking to Brighton Beach. I was half a block away and i could have sworn it was a Q with 10 cars.
Just reading over the DEIS executive summary for the East River Transit Alternatives Study.
Guess what. Canal Street is modified so that express trains run down to Whitehall and turn around, or go through the Motingue St tunnel. The Manhattan Bridge is hooked up to local service.
The goal is to get Upper East Side residents to Lower Manhattan faster without changing trains. The price is getting Brooklyn riders to Midtown SLOWER no matter WHAT train they take. Of course, the proposal does not include the full Second Avenue subway, which would allow Brooklyn services to run direct to East Midtown.
The MTA knows there is not one single politician in Brooklyn who cares about this, is intellegent enough to read the executive summary (20 pages), and is motivated enough to show up at a hearing. ARRGH!
This makes sense only if you plan on abandoning the bridge, and want to save time for Brooklyn residents in the Montiguetunnel. But in that case, there is still not enough capacity, especially if you don't build the DeKalb to Rutgers connection.
What not just eliminate subway service in Brooklyn and use the rails to move out gargage!
Just to add a little counter argument in the MTA's favor, based on grabbing the schedules the best I can before the MTA grabs them back and comparing with other lines:
The Montigue tunnel addeds 6 minutes to the trip vs. the bridge.
Express from Chambers to 42nd on the IRT saves 5 minutes vs. local.
Therefore, the switch, combined with more trains through the tunnel, only loses one minute to Midtown, with Downtown available also. That's an alternative view.
Even intelligent schemes don't get adopted for decades, if ever.
I wouldn't worry too much about the hair-brained ones.
Use the bridge to move garbage. Hmmmm. Thats a GREAT idea. The NYCTA could use grants destined for the Dept of Sanitation to build an under river tube to Statan Island and save hundreds of thousands in service contracts with Waste Management Services. They could run the IRT and BMT pickups directly to Fresh Kills to unload. Heck, they could bypass NY Cross Harbor and South Brooklyn by shipping the redbirds directly to Sarnelli Bros through the new tubes.
I don't know... the Canal St. Manhattan Bridge Station is looking better every day. There is new tile on the side opposite the walkway and I've seen workers down there every day. Unless you're saying that trains would still cross the bridge and then go local on Broadway...
Mike
You know what? They shouldn't even think about changing the trains on the 6th Avenue Line. They can add some other routes to the Broadway Line. You have to see the Q Trains during rush hour. The trains are packed end to end. Now if you move it to Broadway what would happen to the passengers. Most of them ride to Kings Highway. They have to transfer to get home faster. Anyway It'll be easier for Broadway to adapt to new lines than for 6th Avenue to lose a line.
It would be easier for Broadway to adapt to a new line. 6th Avenue is
very overcrowded. There is too much service on 6th Avenue with the B,
D and Q all express.
It would be easier for Broadway to adapt to a new line. 6th Avenue is
very overcrowded. There is too much service on 6th Avenue with the B,
D and Q all express.
DOesn't maka a difference to me. I never take the Broadway BMT anyway. I have taken it from COurt to 8th during PM Rush. I got an N which had about 1/2 the seats taken in each car. It didn't take long either. If the MTA finds that running the N through the tunnel isn't slower and doesn't turn people away, they should keep it in the tunnel and NOT finish the bridge (since they never will).
Well, that would seem to explain the seeming unsalvageable condition of the former Canal Street 'express' BMT level.
If they work hard enough at it, they CAN make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. To wit: 3rd Avenue-149th Street (although I totally disagree with the architectural treatemnt), and 36th Street-4th Avenue in Brooklyn, among others. The main concern I have regarding Canal-Broadway station (as I call it) is the precarious condition of parts of the ceiling, which are forming stalactites and turning to powder due to persistent leaks, which may or may not have been plugged. If they are thorough in their work, then this problem will be properly addressed and remedied.
Wayne
And if they do the job "business as usual" ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It seems that the recent TA station jobs are unlikely to last as long as the orignials, or as long as the bonds issued to pay for them. Its consistent with overall city policy -- finance a 10 year repair with a 30 year bond, and then move to North Carolina. But I digress...
How about the original point. Will Brooklyn be better off or worse off if the BMT Broadway Express tracks are hooked into the Montigue Tunnel, and the local tracks head east over the Manhattan Bridge? It certainly will be worse off if they short-turn some express trains at Whitehall or City Hall, and the crawl from Pacific to Canal Street is awful.
On the other hand, if the express trains were to skip Canal (you'd have to transfer at DeKalb/Pacific or at Union Square) the straight shot up Broadway express and avoiding the bridge might avoid counter-balance the trip through Downtown. You could continue to run two services on Broadway via tunnel, and they would be full rather than empty.
It makes sense that the tunnels should be hooked up to express tracks, since they are more viable in the long run. Perhaps they should do the same flip/flop on 6th Avenue. After connecting the DeKalb tracks to the Rutgers tunnel, the tunnel trains could be moved to the express tracks. After installing a switch somewhere on the Willie B connection, the trains via bridge could become locals. At least if Brooklyn ends up with three tunnels and no bridge, the tunnels would be better connected, and there would be express runs on the other side.
Just reading over the DEIS executive summary for the East River Transit Alternatives Study.
Is this document available on the web somewhere?
--Mark
Check out the official MTA website. The summary is available in Adobe Acrobat. It also says where the three volume monstrosity is located. Anyone (but a lawyer for an Upper East Side NIMBY planning to disrupt the project by suing) willing to read that one?
Guess what. Canal Street is modified so that express trains run down to Whitehall and turn around, or go through the Motingue St tunnel. The Manhattan Bridge is hooked up to local service.
The goal is to get Upper East Side residents to Lower Manhattan faster without changing trains. The price is getting Brooklyn riders to Midtown SLOWER no matter WHAT train they take. Of course, the proposal does not include the full Second Avenue subway, which would allow Brooklyn services to run direct to East Midtown.
I take it that this plan is part of the first phase of 2nd Av (above 63rd). That's the only way it would give upper east side a one seat ride.
i don't see why that would be necessary. They could always switch one of the expresses to the tunnel (they plan to do this with the N if the bridge is fully open, since Astoria is so fixed to lower Manh. service. It would only run over the bridge peak direction from Brooklyn. That way, both Bklyn and Queens would get the services most beneficial to them)
If they want to recongigure the area, they should hook the exp. up to both the bridge, and the tracks to City Hall (locals would be moved out, and branch of exp moved into their place. Then, perhaps, the lower level City hall tracks could be extended and rejoin the lcal tracks between there and Cortlandt, if possible.
It would be tough to do much of anything with the lower level City Hall station, since it's boxed in to both the south and west by the IND `A' train tunnel, and can't go straight down Broadway, since the IRT has that closed off.
They could still use the station as a terminal stop for express trains from the Upper East Side or Queens via 63rd St., but that would have to go along with that local/express swap Larry was talking about, because they're not going to fix up the junction bewtween Canal and Prince streets just to have the express trains go down to City Hall.
I went to investigate the condition of the rebuilt line since I was at the Caribbean Day Parade at Eastern Parkway.
I walked over to St. John's Place and saw the the street bridge had not been completed (this is the job of DOT not the NYCT), but shouldn't prevent trains from running through the cut.
I then went over to Sterling Place and took a shot of the switch where the single track leading to Park Place and the double-tracks running south to Botanic Gardens converge. I also crossed to the southside of the street to take a picture of the single track running to Park Place station.
Everything looks ready for passenger service!
Doug aka BMTman
Will the R142's be around for my next Subway tour on 6th November 1999 and if so is it possible to go and look at them being tested.
Simon
Swindon UK
Based on Bombardier's quality control reputation (ask Amtrak right about now), its doubtful. If you're lucky, the first set may be delivered for testing by then up on the Dyer Ave. line.
Based on Bombardier's quality control reputation (ask Amtrak right about now), its doubtful.
True, Bombardier's reputation hasn't been that good lately, but don't forget...the Kawasaki R142's could arrive before them....but I'm not saying that their reputation is any better!
I don't know why the R142
s are having such problems....Boston's red line 01800 series runs beutifully...and they are hi-tech, and built by Bombardier. -Nick
After seeing the Kawasaki-built R62's put up the best MDBF of any subway car to date, and the way the Kawasaki-built R68A's outperform the Bombardier R68's, it's a small wonder why the MTA didn't just give the entire R142 contract to Kawasaki.
9/7/99
Chris,I believe the R-68's and R-68-1's were Westinghouse Amrail products,not Bombardier !
Bill Newkirk
Yes. They were built by ANF-Westinghouse (AMRAIL), with some cars showing subcontractor/sub-builders as JEUMONT-SCHNEIDER and ALSTHOM (which as we all know, now is AdTRANZ). I'm not sure just what the split is - the higher numbered units seem to be the Alsthom ones.
Wayne
the 5000 series cars the R68A are KAWASAKI Products
while the R68 2000 series are the AMRAIL Consortium
Yes they are. My mistake. I thought they had built the R68's. Has Bobardier built any other MTA subway car??
As far as I know, Bombardier has only built the R142 and R110B. Like I mentioned earlier, they built Boston's red line 01800 series, which are similar to the R143/R110B, and run very well. But Kawasaki built the R-62's, in addition to the R110A and R142. -Nick
The R-62A was built by Bombardier. That's a large set of cars, bigger than any other fleet.
[ As far as I know, Bombardier has only built the R142 and R110B. Like I
mentioned earlier, they built Boston's red line 01800 series, which
are similar to the R143/R110B, and run very well. But Kawasaki built
the R-62's, in addition to the R110A and R142. ]
Bombardier built the R62A's, which are all the stainless cars on the IRT, except for the R62's on the #4 (and the 110A). A significant number of cars.
If I remember correctly, that order has turned out OK.. Not as well as the Kawasaki R62's, but still a good experience.
After the R-44 and R-46 debacles, the MTA simplified its technical requirements for the R-62/62A, which contributed to their reliability. The R-142s are going to be more of a roll of the high-tech dice, so we'll have to see if those trains are going to be plug and play on the IRT or if they'll need major tinkering.
Fear not, Simon. The twilight of the Redbirds is certainly a long one. I don't see the R142s entering service until next summer at the very earliest, so Redbirds should be around for some time to come.
Wayne
After spending the summer back home in the Big Apple, riding the subway on a regular basis like I did while in high school, I can truly say that I'm very disappointed with the way the MTA does things. Just when I thought the MTA might actually be changing its ways for the better, they go out and prove me wrong.
I heard in April on SubTalk that we might see the first set of R142s on about May 21. Over three months have passed since that date and not once did I see this set of cars that are supposed to bring the 2, 5, and 7 lines into the modern era, not even in the yard! I checked the subway car pictures here on Subtalk to see if maybe the cars did come. And wouldn't you know it, but all I saw were the same three pictures of the R142 mockup, no actual cars themselves!
First they said the new cars were coming in 1995, then 1997, then 1999. Now I'm hearing 2000! So my home subway line, the good, I mean bad, old #2 line is going to be forced to operate with those ugly, noisy, rusty, smelly, ancient Redbeasts where there seem to be two cars (never in the same pair) that have broken A/C in every consist.
Has the MTA not punished #2 train riders enough? Why was the #2 never considered for getting the nice R62s/62As in 1983 and 1984. It seemed to be one of the biggest targets for grafitti. Why didn't we get the 62s? We didn't get florescent platform lights until 1997 and Pelham Parkway still doesn't have them. The Bronx section is still using ancient jointed rail, as opposed to modern welded rail. And it is so slow! Why can't it at least be express in the Bronx during rush hours?
And now no new subway cars until next century! Does the word "jinxed" ring a bell to anyone other than me? The curse of the 2 train is still on! It's never going to end.
Don't count on seeing new subway cars on the 2, 5, and 7 lines. Their delivery date will be the 12th of Never. They're not coming. And don't place blame solely on Bombardier and Kawasaki. The MTA and New York State are the real culprits here! They screwed this up! But then again, the MTA and New York State screw up everything they do. Forget about the R142s and R143s. They're never going into service.
OK, the cars have been built and are in Plattsburgh, New York for final testing before delivery. Even if the cars were delivered in May, they would still be in testing and NOT IN SERVICE! The 5 runs express in the Bronx. The MTA HAS NEVER promised any subway cars for service in 1995 or 1997. The R-142s will be in service in the Summer of Fall of 2000 (or even Spring). Which means that, unless you live in the "Romans had a concept of zero" dimension, that's still the Twentieth Century.
Finally! Someone who understands that the new millenium starts on Jan 1st, 2001, not Jan 1st., 2000. Most people who I tell that to laugh at me.
It's even better than that, ChrisR. A "new millennium" begins every second (or less!). A "millennium" is a collection of a thousand years.
What we have on January 1, 2000 is the "odometer change." That's all.
(Millenium in just a collection of 1,000 years, and could start and end at any point).
All the more reason that the millenium is whenever most people say it is, just like a meter is a meter because that's what most people think, and the word "go" means "go" because that's what most people think. Anyway, scholars now place Jesus' birth in a different year. So much for A.D.
Personally, I'm more interested in the turn of the century, since I have data for 1900. No one else is interested, though.
You say the cars have been built. Does that mean they are all done and are being tested on tracks in Plattsburgh right now? How long will it take to test them on subway tracks after delivery before they are accepted?
I know the Romans didn't have a zero. But that's not going to stop the hotels, Disneyworld and Times Square from having their new millenium celebrations THIS December 31. But if the R142s continue to have so much trouble, then it may very well be next century, that is 2001, before they finally enter service.
Depends on whether or not someone accidentally runs them off the end of the track again. Whoops!
Rim shot!!
lets see the cars are being manufactured by skill-less NON UNION LABOR number#1 people who possibly wouldn't know what a subway or rail car is( I was going to say wouldn't know their *ss from their elbow) well hey didn't they already operate the train in reverse on a test track and derail it too? poor shoddy workmanship caused delays and the new procurement process to eliminate delivery of poor quality rolling stock not to mention TA engineers going back and changing designs/specs every few seconds really hasn't helped much..
as far as the #2 the DUECE seeing any new trains soon I wouldn't hold my breath. Why the R62a's never stayed on the line i'll never know...
Here's what I'd like to know: Would it still be possible to make more subway cars similar to the R62/62A? I know that the R127/134 garbage train units are very similar in overall shape to the 62s. Is there also some kind of off-the-shelf car on the market that might fit into the IRT tunnels?
[ Here's what I'd like to know: Would it still be possible to make more
subway cars similar to the R62/62A? ]
You can still build identical cars to the R62's. You could even call them R62B's, if you wanted.
[ I know that the R127/134 garbage
train units are very similar in overall shape to the 62s. ]
They are also pretty much mechanically identical as well, except for the lack of A/C (and I would imagine, P/A systems, and possibly door controls might be different).
The R62's have worked out very well, but the propulsion advances in the R142's are worth abandoning the SMEE system for. They can be made significantly more efficient, between A/C propulsion, and regenerative braking, to make a serious impact on energy use. The propulsion stuff they're using _should_ be well understood by now -- it's modern, but definately not cutting edge.
I think getting 5 car sets is overdoing it, though. I think that married pairs are the best compromise between eliminating redundant equipment, and providing operation flexibility.
(not to mention that it's real expensive and difficult to preserve 5 car sets in museums!).
since the R62(A) and R68(A) were built the ADA arrived and new cars must meet ADA specs such as wheelchair space, wider doors, etc.
Why TA spent all the money using buying R127/134 for work motors is insane when using other equipment such as R17 or R21/22 could have been more cost efficient in terms of labor versus the cost of the new rolling stock for non revenue stock...
QUESTION;;
is there anyone like me who is taking pictures of the
LOS ANGELES RED GREEN BLUE rail lines here in
LOS ANGELES CALIFORNIA !!!! the metro rail systems if so
please contact me at salaamallah@yahoo.com
P O BOX 6301 altadena california 91001
also how about the san diego red trolley ?????
thank you salaam allah
When I was in LA and San Diego a few years ago I took pictures of the LA Metro Blue Line and the San Diego Trolley. I plan to visit those 2 cities again in the future and take more pictures of the mentioned Subway and Rail systems. I like all of these systems.
I've had a question about the LA rail transit system ever since it opened: are people using it in significant numbers? I mean, one can read the ridership statistics from the LACMTA website or from the Federal Transit Administration, but do the train cars LOOK full? On weekends or only on weekdays? At night and other off-peak hours? Does the Green Line (which doesn't go downtown) look significantly less busy than the Red or Blue Lines?
The main reason I ask is that, in many things but especially for public transit, perception becomes reality. If people see mostly-empty trains, few will ride, out of safety concerns as well as "it must not be any good if hardly anybody is riding". But if passersby see filled (but not necessarily overcrowded) trains, they will be more likely to ride. If nothing else, it makes it a little easier to defend financing transit from the general treasury when non-transit-riders can at least see that the trains are well-used. Near-empty buses and trains tend to get motorists to start clucking about "government wasting our tax dollars" and such.
I believe the system is underutilized. I stations look fantastic especially at Hollywood and Vine.
How are your doing John?
"How are you doing, John?"
As a friend of mine is fond of saying whenever he's asked how he is, "Could be better, could be worse." An all-purpose answer that fits whether things are going well or badly, since even when things are bad, they could be worse, and even if everything is going fine, things could even be better. :^)
Seriously, not bad. Even though I work in the Loop, I went downtown on the subway (Blue Line) for Labor Day. The trains (and buses from what I could see) were very busy, although that may be a function of running on a Sunday schedule even though Labor Day is a big "go downtown and walk down Michigan Avenue or along Navy Pier" holiday. And boy, were people doing just that! I can understand not running a weekday schedule on a holiday, but some holidays, like Labor Day, are more suited to a Saturday schedule than a Sunday one. The subway trains are still only about 10 minutes apart, at least on the Blue Line, so it's not **too** bad, but every seat on the trains was taken.
When I was in LA and San Diego a few years ago I took pictures of the LA Metro Blue Line and the San Diego Trolley. I plan to visit those 2 cities again in the future and take more pictures of the mentioned Subway and Rail systems. I like all of these systems.
I've had a question about the LA rail transit system ever since it opened: are people using it in significant numbers? I mean, one can read the ridership statistics from the LACMTA website or from the Federal Transit Administration, but do the train cars LOOK full? On weekends or only on weekdays? At night and other off-peak hours? Does the Green Line (which doesn't go downtown) look significantly less busy than the Red or Blue Lines?
The main reason I ask is that, in many things but especially for public transit, perception becomes reality. If people see mostly-empty trains, few will ride, out of safety concerns as well as "it must not be any good if hardly anybody is riding". But if passersby see filled (but not necessarily overcrowded) trains, they will be more likely to ride. If nothing else, it makes it a little easier to defend financing transit from the general treasury when non-transit-riders can at least see that the trains are well-used. Near-empty buses and trains tend to get motorists to start clucking about "government wasting our tax dollars" and such.
I believe the system is underutilized. I stations look fantastic especially at Hollywood and Vine.
How are your doing John?
"How are you doing, John?"
As a friend of mine is fond of saying whenever he's asked how he is, "Could be better, could be worse." An all-purpose answer that fits whether things are going well or badly, since even when things are bad, they could be worse, and even if everything is going fine, things could even be better. :^)
Seriously, not bad. Even though I work in the Loop, I went downtown on the subway (Blue Line) for Labor Day. The trains (and buses from what I could see) were very busy, although that may be a function of running on a Sunday schedule even though Labor Day is a big "go downtown and walk down Michigan Avenue or along Navy Pier" holiday. And boy, were people doing just that! I can understand not running a weekday schedule on a holiday, but some holidays, like Labor Day, are more suited to a Saturday schedule than a Sunday one. The subway trains are still only about 10 minutes apart, at least on the Blue Line, so it's not **too** bad, but every seat on the trains was taken.
I was once looking down into Sunnyside Yards from the sidewalk overpass, and I saw a GG1 raising its pans and way before it touched the wires, a flaming arc shot down. It really was awesome, seeing that flaming arc empowering the G. 1st-- Anybody ever see that? 2nd -- Assuming that this was real, did anyone ever capture that on a photo, slide , or movie?
I used to watch the New Haven Locos and MUs reach for the wire north of 238th St in the Bronx. Normally, there was only minor arching. I never saw it on a rainy or snowy day. There were plenty of fireworks from the 3rd Ave El when it still had the uncovered third rail. Even on the NYC Harlem division, with its underruning third rail, it was not uncommon to have a fire started by an arching locomotive on a dry day.
Somewhere in a book I read - I think it was one of Don Ball's, but I'm not sure - there was a photograph of E-44 4444 arcing (the number is probably the only reason I remember the shot). Whether or not the pan was being raised at that time or if there was some sort of problem I don't recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Watch the "DC motor test" at New haven before departure. Not one pan dropping and arcing but *four* one on every other car! Scares the ^*&% out of you the first time!! High voltage, ice storms, and nightime also make for some dramatic scenes on Metro-North. I remember once at Mineola watching an LIRR train run express through the station, at speed, durring an icy rainy storm one morning. Not only did you SEE the arcing (and it WAS arcing!!!) you heard it!!! *bang bangbang bang!*
Most, if not all of the older motors will arc when the pan drops - I'm not sure on the AEM-7 or ALP-44 - Erik?
All weekend the nothbound local track (D2) has been out of service from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt Ave. A trailing point switch leading from the new 63 St. connection has been installed. Last Memorial Day weekend, a turnout from the south express D3 track was installed. 2 down, 2 to go!
Yep, those two might be done, however when I look down from track D3 lately, I see no trackage leading down towards the tunnel! When will that occur?
Tracks will be installed when the connection is finished-8 to 12 months.
I have been one of the flagmen protecting the workers there. It's amazing watching them weld third rail segments. They build an oven around the rail, and pour gnpowder into it. Then they light it up. What a fire!
Those guys work real fast. On friday night they began pulling up the temporary ballasted track, and by Sat afternoon they had the switch in. On sat night they poured the new concrete. That is surely a sight to watch.
Last night they finished up the detail work like third rail protectiion board.
It will probably take another three day weekend before they install the switches for 4 and 1.
I walked down the ramps. They are laying skelotonized track about 1000 feet from the bumping block past 21 St.
The tunnel is still not fully lined at the point where the excavation is that can be seen from the Astoria line.
Best estimate by the workers (probably more reliable than the TA's) is the line will be ready to open in fall of next year.
It's amazing watching them weld third rail segments. They build an oven around the rail, and pour gnpowder into it. Then they light it up. What a fire!
Gunpowder? A thermite-derivative, surely.
Gunpowder probably wouldn't burn hot enough to weld rail.
Fall 2000 opening? It will surely be needed as a bypass to the E & F route from Queens Plaza to Fifth Ave. Lots of work is needed in this area. And it can be done when the 63rd St. extension opens. The switches at Fifth Ave. are pounded by trains 24/7. These switches will need to be replaced. Major station renovation at Lex./53 is sorely needed. Improvements to the 53rd St. tube are needed in the area of drainage and emergency tunnel lighting. There is also a water problem on D4 track from Fifth Ave. to Lex. The scope of work needed in this area would be virtually impossible to do without the ability to reroute trains via 63rd St. at least nights and weekends. They can do one direction at a time.
Yes, I've seen the condition of the ceilings over the trackways at Lexington-53rd. Atrocious. Hideous. Leaks everywhere. This station needs major renovation SOON or it'll become another Chambers Street.
Wayne
Bill, your comments are right on target.
For those of you who are members of the NY Division of the ERA, read your September newsletter carefully. In Dave Erlitz' column on "forecasted projects" you'll see a preliminary plan to do work just as Bill suggests, and mentions that the 63rd Street connection could be used as a diversion. But as Dave caveats, these are tentative plans and subject to change. But it's interesting reading and thought-provoking! (Another one that caught my eye was a plan to do work at Chambers St., and route the E to Euclid Ave. Hey Steve! Where will you get those extra cars from? (OOPS! It's not Steve's problem anymore :))
How could the Cranberry St. tunnel handle the A, C AND E service? Especially during rush hour. A better idea might be re-routing the E to 2nd Ave.
Beats me! You might email Dave Erlitz, the author of the article (maybe he'll even join our SubTalk forum!). The referenced article was in the September issue of the NY Division of the ERA. Membership/subscription information is available from:
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
PO Box 3001
New York NY 10008-3001
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era
How about Metropolitan? I guess that's no good, because it would have to have 8 cars. But then for the C on the other hand, it wouldn't be a problem. But then that's more routes out of place.
Well, if the Sixth Ave. line can handle B/D/Q service between DeKalb and Rockefeller Center on one track, Cranberry can probably take A/C/E , though the MTA might cut a trip of Cs or Es overall to ease the crowding.
The A and E run every 4-5 minutes during rush hours. The only way B, D and Q trains can all squeeze on the Manhattan Bridge is because they have cut service on each line. Maximum headway is what, 6 minutes per train? Unacceptable for the E, and probably for the A. And we all know how SLOW Manhattan Bridge service gets at 8:30 Am.
Why not just terminate the C at WTC and run the E to Euclid Avenue through the Cranberry Street Tunnel at all times? This way the E could also run express down 8th Avenue. Why make what is just a simple route switch into a huge construction project?
According to what I read, the terminal tracks will be out-of-service 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. So nothing can terminate at WTC.
I don't think Fulton St. local capacity warrants running the E to Euclid. I would do it anyway, because it provides Fulton St. local passengers with express service in Manhattan and would eliminate an annoying crossover at Canal St. But would the reduction of service at Spring and 23rd be justified, with only the C serving those stops?
I work at 23rd and 8th. I have a large Asian ridership asking for the E train. It is rough overnight when I have to tell them the E is on the F line uptown till October(due to a G.O.) I can not repeat the thoughts I get and actions from the passengers with no E train!
Just tell 'em to take the A/C down to W4th St. No big deal.
It is a big deal when the comprehension of the English language is nil!
If they can't understand English, then they're on their own. Immigrants should be able to speak English, but that's getting way off topic.
[ I work at 23rd and 8th. I have a large Asian ridership asking for the
E train. It is rough overnight when I have to tell them the E is on
the F line uptown till October(due to a G.O.) I can not repeat the
thoughts I get and actions from the passengers with no E train! ]
Well, that situation is worse than if the C and E switched routes from 53/8 southward. In that case, people wanting to get to Queens on the E from 23rd St would just take the C local to 34th (or 42nd, where it's across the platform), and change there. Less convenient, but not as bad as having to walk to 6th Ave, backtrack to W4th, or whatever other reasonable means to get to 6th Ave/Queens Blvd trains.
maybe the G.O. notice should be posted in Asain?
Good idea; But Korean, Japanese, Chinese, Hindi, Phillipino, Vietnamese,...
I think you get the point!
O.K. How about switching the E after it leaves W Fourth St. to the F tracks to B'Way/Lafayette, run it through the Rutgers St. tunnel and then switch back to the A/C line at Jay St.-Borough Hall. That would leave three trains on one track only between Jay and Hoyt-Schermerhorn, and if there are still too many trains for that, some of the E trains could continue to Smith-9th and be turned there.
This would create a bottleneck north of Jay St. Not a good idea.
thats the best idea posted for this reroute
It would be time consuming because the E train would have to stop at Bway Lafayette to punch his ID because Essex St. Tower controls Second Ave. interlocking. Also, a "call on" must be taken (stop at homeball and activate lever to drive the stop arm down) upon entering Second Ave. relay tracks. Meanwhile the E will certainly delay the F behind it because this move is made at less than 10 MPH and the F has to wait at Bway-Lafayette for the E to clear the switch. The E & F can run together from 71 Continental to Fifth Ave with 2 trains every 5 minutes because the trains move at maximum speed. With the above slow movement from W4 to Second Ave., the railroad will be backed up to 34 St. at least, on both Sixth & Eighth Aves. I am formulating MY service plan in my head and I will discuss it as soon as I have it completely formulated!
Pray tell what mischief might they be planning at Chambers Street-WTC (the "E" platform)? Installing the station name captions they FORGOT to put up during the original rehab? Plastering more eyes onto the wall? Anyway, they might be better off sending the "E" via the Broadway line to Whitehall Street, which is closer to the WTC than is 2nd Avenue. They might be able to squeeze three services through the Cranberry Tube if they orchestrate it carefully, leaving little or no margin for delays, etc. Once clear of the two-track bottleneck, they should have no trouble out to Euclid.
Wayne
Perhaps another solution would be to send the C to Second Ave and the E to Euclid.
But what needs to be done at WTC that would require major re-routing? Hasn't that station been renovated already?
They're redoing the switches.
Although on paper the headway through Cranberry is every 4 or so minutes, Whenever I take the C, t is much longer (except for the PM rush around 5, Brooklyn bound. Then and only then do I see one train behind the other.) So in practice, they could fit the E. Still, this would be a perfect time to test ridership through the outer Chrystie St. tracks to the Eastern Div. Why keep going by what didn't work 25 years ago?
[ So in practice, they could fit the E. Still, this
would be a perfect time to test ridership through the outer Chrystie St. tracks to the Eastern Div. Why keep going by what didn't work 25
years ago? ]
Ahh, the perfect time to make the "E" into the Jamaica to Jamaica via Bridge and Tunnel!
If they did that, they would have to shorten the E to 8 cars because of the short platforms in the Eastern Division, and they're not going to do that with any Queens Blvd.-Manhattan service.
I doubt the Cranberry St tunnel could handle traffic from the A, C and E service during rush hours without service cuts on some lines.
Why not use the Rutgers tunnel during rush hours? It should have ample capacity. Both ends link up at W. 4th and Jay Sts.
Too complicated for a temporary re-routing. You gotta keep it simple or people get stupid. You should have seen the sheer panic on peoples faces on a B train I was on when it was announced it was running to Coney Island via the Sea Beach express. The conductor explained FOUR times what was happening and what you had to do to get to statons along the West End line, yet there still were people standing half way in the train confused beyond belief.
> was running to Coney Island via the Sea Beach express......
> had to do to get to statons along the West End line,
I bet this is because many people don't know what Sea Beach and West End mean any more...
-Dave
The problem is: half the people in New York don't understand English, and the other half don't listen!
Another idea is to send the E to Church Av., giving the F a chance to go Express, and the local riders would have more than just the G, and still have the one seat ride to Manhattan.
I doubt that would happen due to the obvious logistical nightmare of trying to shoehorn 3 routes thru the Cranberry tube.
Also WTC is a major destination point for IND patrons connecting to/from the PATH trains. Closing down the WTC terminal would force soemone heading in from the PATH trains to either sue the 1/9 or N?R stops nearby or try to make their way thru a m aze of hallways to the A line platform @ Chambers Street. Either way, all 3 of those stations would get dangerously overcowded during rush hours. All in all, closing the WTC plats would not be an option.
I think that if E service is revised in the future, it would run from Jamaica Ctr via Queens Blvd Express and then via 8th Ave Express
and Fulton Local to Euclid Ave. Personally I feel that such a revision should include service all the way to Lefferts Blvd, replacing the A. As part of this chnage the C would run as a strict 8th Ave local service(which should consist of 10-car trains) between WTC and 168th Street. Such services would likely operate daily from 6A-12M, during overnite hours, the E would operate via 8th Ave local to WTC.
As far thas the E is concerned, I can see that happening around the time of the opening of the last leg of the 63rd street tube. By doing that my guess is that the E line's base could be shifted from Jamaica to Pitkin Yard which would allow room for whatver line will be serving Queens via 63rd Street. The C would of course be based out of Washington Hts Yard.
If the Manhattn Bridge closes fully, the East River Crossings study included an idea to make the E the Express to the Rockaways, and the A local on Fulton (still exp. in Manh.) to Euclid. (C to WTC, of course). This was to give additional service for the new Frankin transfer. But with 2 car trains, squeezing into a single track for half of the shuttle (max. 7 min headways), how many people would even be able to get to the beefed up Fulton Service? That was such a stupid move, and will spoil the sight of the rebuilt Shuttle. (I hope they at least left room for reexpansion)
Replacing the diamond crossover at WTC may be the reason. Why not the E to Second Ave.? The E picks up lots of passengers destined for Jamaica at WTC. All they would have to do is use the main-line platform. With the A/C there, both services terminate uptown. With the A/E there, one goes all the way uptown, and one goes to midtown, then Queens. I wouldn't send the E to Whitehall because the E shuttles loads of people from Lex., Fifth, and Seventh Ave's. down to Penn Station.
I have also heard about work to be done at WTC. My guess, if the E went to Euclid temporarily, it would take the place of the C in Brooklyn. Perhaps the C could discharge at W4 and relay at Second Ave. for n/b service back uptown. This could negate the need for lots of extra cars.
Anther possibility is the C being terminated at Canal St. and the recently replaced middle track north of Chambers St. being used to relay them.
There is another G.O. on the E next week- 9/14 to 9/24/1999 from 12:01am to 5:00 AM-- The E will run via the R from Whitehall to Queens-- in BOTH directions. This ends at 5am Friday Mornings-no work Friday Night/Saturday Morning until Midnight Monday Night/Tuesday Morning. I am still waiting for the other shoe to drop on that one [No Weekend E all weekend!]
that means.. I tell them no E to Queens (until Midnight) and then No E in either direction--that means twenty minutes between trains-- only one choice!(I already tell them to walk to Sixth Ave rather than wait forty minutes-- wait for downtown to West 4th and wait 20 minutes for the E on the F, and that wont work next week!!)
I don't schedule the trains, but I'd schedule the A nd E to be ten minutes apart South of 42 to Canal so there is 10 minutes between trains. Same for CPW with the A and D rather than wait 20 minuets then two trains within 2-3 minutes!
To our dispatcher types-- would that work or would there be problems such as has been posted with the N/R
That is the biggest problem working those late PM and midnite jobs no matter what your function is in the TA. Fortunately, my working hours on the E no longer make it necessary for me to deal with that stuff.
Certainly they should try to get even 10-minute intervals between trains when there are two services running on a track at night, but I doubt it is always possible.
Hopefully this will be done with the 1 and 2 on the west side IRT and the 4 and 6 on the east side IRT when they go to the "two locals/no express" configuration next month. For the downtown trains, it means counting on there being no delays in the Bronx, so that trains arrive at 125th St./Lexington Ave. or 96th St./Broadway on schedule. For uptown trains, the locals not coming from Brooklyn can be held a few minutes to even things up before returning uptown if there are delays in trains from Brooklyn.
Of course, they should try to interleave the trains evely even during the day, but it isn't always possible, especially on the B division where trains merge, separate, and merge with other trains. On the A division (IRT), it should be just barely possible, but again only if there are no delays on any of the feeder lines. For example, if the 2 from 241st and the 5 from Dyre are timed to interleave evenly at 180th St., then that timing also determines what the departure times of the 4 from Woodlawn would be, to interleave with the 5 at 149th, and what the departure times of the 3 from Lenox Terminal should be, to interleave with the 2. Any delays anywhere will throw everything off. And if you want to have the 2 and the 4 meet up at Nevins St., well, too bad, all the times have already been determined. The timing there will be whatever it happens to be, unless trains are deliberately delayed somewhere en route to force this meeting.
I am wondering to what extent this kind of interleaving succeeds, and even to what extent it is even attempted in the current schedules. Certainly they should try to do this to the extent that it is possible.
As I was returning from today's Parade, I biked along Van Sinderen. I saw something interesting underneath the Canarsie L structure. There were two boxcars on a siding approximately beneath the Livonia station. I couldn't get a very good look since there is a double fence between the street and the ROW, but I was able to notice a relatively new looking concrete freight-loading platform for the box cars. I would have to assume that there is some client in that area of the NY&A.
Doug aka BMTman
Ain't new. Company reccieves paper board rolls for boxes. Gets cars two or three times a week.
Unlike Key Food a little ways down. They get cars once a month.
Hey, Transit Pro -- thanks for the info. I wasn't even sure that Key Food or any of the other distributors at Brooklyn Terminal Market still received deliveries by rail freight. Thought it was all tractor-trailer shipments.
Incidentally, I took a shot of the boxcars by Livonia from the walkway over the Bay Ridge (IRT #3 crosswalk). I'll send along a GIF when I get 'em developed. I also snapped a shot of the last remaining cantanery tower (by Junius St. in the Linden Shop part of the ROW) in that area. Doesn't that go back to the days of Pennsylvania RR ownership of the LIRR?
Doug aka BMTman
The wye track cat towers are still up at Fresh pond. The Bay Ridge was owned by the New Haven I believe, which explains the cat and not third rail on Long Island
Do you guys know there is also an existing PASSENGER station too? its at the mouth of the east ny tunnel, it even has an elevator that went up to the LIRR station above.
Huh? There is/was an elevator from the Bay Ridge platform at Atlantic Ave. to the East New York platform of the Flatbush branch? This is news to me.
I see no sign of it at the ENY station. I've got to investigate that one of these days.
Doug aka BMTman
Not surprised that you cant see it on the upper current LIRR station, since passenger service on this part of the Bay Ridge branch stopped about 1922. Maybe check the upper level for what appears to be a closed off utility closet or storage room, or for a really old concrete patch in the floor.
Why is it better to keep a internal combustion engine running instead of shutting them down? I would assume in cold weather they would have a hard time warming up? The LIRR keep their locos running 24/7.
What are the advantages and disadvantages of doing this?
you don't need anti-freeze for one. the big diesels run better when a constant temperature and no dead batterys
The class one's long ago recognized the benifits of shutting down. If a newer engine like a GP60-2 is left idling for more than 4 hours, it will shut itself down. A big savings is fuel. In the long term, it saves on bearings, piston rings, etc.
LIRR as a commuter operation funded wih outside revenues, cares more about immeadiate availability. The engines are left running becuse for the most part they don't sit for long. NY&A does shut it's engines down.
Then again, no one at LIRR really cares about stuff like that.
Large diesel engines such as are on locomotives can be seriously damaged by use of anti-freeze. I recently was told of an Alco S-2 that will have to be scrapped because the power assembly seals were destroyed by anti-freeze, the anti-freeze got into the base and mixed with the lube oil, the resultant mess will probably cost a good buck to get rid of. Diesels use a rust inhibiting water treatment only. To shut down a diesel engine in freezing weather is stupidity with a six-figure price tag. However, there are two devices available that allow you to safely shut down in cold weather. The LTEP (Locomotive Temperature Engine Protection) system is a small liquid cooled diesel engine which drives a water pump (in effect it runs the locomotive's cooling system. and the Kim Hotstart is an electrical heating system which circulates hot water through the cooling system
The enging blocks of the Prime movers on RR engines are usually assembled from pieces, whereas in a car they are are machined from one piece of metal. Thus, there are a lot more seals which can leak between the coolant and the lubricant. This, plus the fact that RR engines are run many many more total hours than a car engine, explain the unreliability of the seals that isolate the coolant from the lubricant.
The newest freight engines may be designed for antifreeze. (?) I think they are also designed to be shut down, and keep warm. Many, if not most, RR engines have an automatic device which dumps the coolant if it gets too close to freezing. Obviously, this device is removed if antifreeze is being used!!
Automotive engine blocks aren't machined, they're cast. After being cast, critical areas are machined.
The new GM H engines are designed for antifreeze, though i don't know if there are any in service yet.
The FL9AC engines I used to work on have an electrical heating system. It keeps the engine water hot when it's prime mover is shut down in third rail mode.
All locomotives have a drain valve for the water that opens below 40 degrees. In the winter when we would re-start an engine that had been worked on, it had to be held shut with a broom stick. Otherwise the hose would fill the radiators and then drain to the ground.
One would have to assume the DM-30 has something similar to what an FL9A has.
New Engines are desined to be shut down even in Cold and below freezeing weather but most older engines CAN NOT be shut down in Cold and more importantly Below Freezing wx for the reason stated. It is cheaper to keep them running overnight even if you crew is dead on the law.
Plus you get that much more time out of the road crew if you don't have a hostler or yard crew starting the engine.
This was all confirmed by my Enginer friend from SlamTrak (drives one of the Silvers VA to FLA).
We were wandering about the City today by car, showing a friend from North Carolina some of the sights, and drove under the #7 from Shea all the way back to about 50th. At about 12:30 or so, around 80th(?), we noted the passage of an outbound train on the express tracks, followed a few minutes later by a second train on the express tracks. Were there special runs because of the US Open and the Mets game or were these empty ferry moves? (Obviously, since we were under the el, we couldn't tell if they were carrying passengers or even what kind of equipment they were. It's possible they were work trains, although they sounded the same and took about the same amount of time to pass as outbound trains on the local track.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I wonder if the TA will do what it did in 86 and 88, when it ran extra express specials during Met home playoff games ...
The MTA implemented a new service on the 7 Line, The express now runs All day long! Inbound to Manhattan untill about 12 or 1pm, the Outbound to Queens untill rush hours is over (About 9pm)!
Trevor Logan
Even on weekends/holidays?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, but not on weekends or holidays. I've yet to get an express home from Shea, despite attending 10 games so far this season.
-Hank
I'd like to give all of you my personal opinion.
This might break the hearts of all loyal redbird fans, but I think it's time for the newer cars to come in. I believe the MTA should install some of their new R142s on the Flushing line. If not, then at least move some of the R68s that are now used on the 1, 3, 4, 6 and 9 over to the 7. The R36s and R33s are getting very old; they're almost 40 years old now!!
What are your opinions? I'm not asking IF they are coming over, but rather, SHOULD the new cars come to the 7 line?
The R-68's are B division cars. Used on the D,B and N lines. The cars you mentioned are A division R-62 cars. Used on the 1,3,4 and 6 lines. The R-68's cannot fit on the Flushing line.
I think he's mistaken the R62 with the R68. I think the MTA is planning to put them on the Flushing line anyway when the R142 order is completely delivered.
I may be wrong but I heard the R-62's can't run on the Flushung line because the guardlights get damaged when the train enters the tunnel.
Originally, yes, that was a problem. By now, it's been solved.
-Hank
As a regular passenger on the #7 Flushing Line. We need the new R142 not handme downs from the main line. The Flushing line is the pride of the IRT and the US Government has named it "An historical line". We have Shea, US Open, Hall of Science and other sites in Queens that vistors to Queens are starting to discover. The MTA should gradually replace the "Redbirds" with the R142, perhaps run a couple of test trains during rush hours to see if they can handle the line. I pray and hope the MTA doesn't shaft the Flushing riders with used merchandize.
Personally, I'd be a little wary of new subway cars being put on my line, considering the teething problems the R44,46 and 68's had. The R62 is the most reliable subway car in the entire system. Flushing would be lucky to get them.
The Flushing line, since it has no backup, is in some ways the least breakdown tolerant line in the system. At least there are express and local tracks along Queens Boulevard. So, indeed, it is not the place for new trains, which, although full of "new train smell," will have those teething problems.
Depends on what `new' is. The Flushing line has never gotten hand-me-downs from the main line since it opened. First the Steinways, followed by the R-12/14/15s followed by the R-36WFs -- all brand new when they showed up on the line.
Of course, all those trains were built on already-proven platforms and with equipment that for the most part had worked elsewhere. The R-142s are the first IRT trains since the Low Vs to have any radical changes, so there may be a few more bugs in them that in the past.
I'm all for the R142's. They mean a lot of overtime for us in car equiptment. The 7 line dispatchers are going to have to be very creative to keep to their 90 second headways.
Which is why the R142 wont be on the Flushing line when they start service. The 7 is too heavily used to be served by brand-new, potentially troublesome subway cars. I don't think a single subway car class has had an uneventfull inauguration into service since the R38.
Oh, I wouldn't say the R-38 inauguration was uneventful. They were pressed into service as soon as they were ready to go, given the alarming R-1/9 failure rate in August of 1966. Jamaica Yard had to go so far as to borrow 32 R-16s for GG service, and a group of BMT standards about to be scrapped were spared.
The R142's will seat only 34 passengers per car whereas the existing cars seat 10 more per car. That's 110 less seats per train with no increase in usable standing room. So, to h-ll with the new cars. I prefer to give my feet a rest.
Now, maybe they could save the "straps" from the R36's and place them on the R62's before the transfer. Those standee bars were a real pain on the R12, R14 and R15's for the 15 years they ran on the Flushing Line.
NO!!! I hope they stuff those straps into the R-33 singles and then MAIM THEM and destroy them (the cars included). As for Redbirds, about 100 or so of them should get a nice GOH that improves the interior and restores the exterior.
They've already shafted the the Flushing line, as well as White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue. The #7's historic designation means nothing to the MTA. Forget about the R142s ever going into service - it's never going to happen (which is why my name will be just Kwygebo from now on). You'll be lucky if the 7 gets R62As. But I don't think even that is going to happen. The MTA is one poorly operated transit authority. I'm surprised that the MetroCard is as successful as it is. But that's about it.
Let's ignore the troll instead.
When you say the MTA is poorly operated, compared to who?
You mean R-62?
Sorry folks, that's what I meant. Jose screws up again, like what I said about an LIRR DE15 before....
The heck with the 7! They'll never see a R-142 and we all know it. Be happy with the hand downs that you will receive.
those are R62 cars not R68s R68s are for the BMT and IND lines
9/29/99
Seeing an R-68 on the Flushing Line is almost like an express line at Home Depot.
Bill Newkirk
So, my parents returned today from a week's vacation thru New England, where they visited the Shoreline Museum without me. sniff!
Anyhow, their tour guide was someone who travels there every weekend from Long Island. I know that's someone here, because the story is too familiar.
So, who was it? Fess up!
-Hank :)
Ask your Parents if they saw any damaged cars from the collision a few months ago.
There was no collision as far as I know, please dont make false acusations!!!!!
I think He is talking about tha accident at Warehouse point.
This gentleman does not have his facts straight. We've gone over this already.
-Stef
I must make a correction, they went to Seashore in Kennebunkport, ME. The story's the same.
-Hank
Going to work today I got off the Robinson (Interborough) Pkway at Bushwick Av and when I entered Bushwick I noticed a NEW structure atop the "L" platforms at Bway Junction. I was too far to see it close up. It looked like it was still under construction and either a new tower or a new crossover. Anyone know what it is???
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try this color quiz!!
It's a new cross-over. I don't know if it's replacing the underpass currently used to access the Manhattan-bound L, or whether it's simply supplementing it.
I talked to a station attendant some weeks ago about the structure (which started to go up as long ago as the same time the Willy B. went out of service -- May). He said that it is a new cross-over to replace the under-the-tracks walkway currently in use. It was built for two reasons (1) it will hold larger amounts of traffic (wider) and (2) it will deter the crime problem that has been associated with the underpass (muggings having been reported in the underpass as passengers round the bend in the stairwell).
Doug aka BMTman
The one the muggers love is the crossunder down near the south end of the platform! Back on Sept.14,1997 I ventured down there and found a couple of miscreants who immediately gave me a look which made my hair on the back of my neck stand up. Out of reflex, or whatever, I said "Boo!". The older one (maybe 15) broke into a grin and he and his little friend went back up the stairs. I'm not sure if they were really up to no good or what. I made a bee line for the southbound platform stairs and crossed under at the main crossunder. Never had a problem there, although that blind corner DOES give me the creeps. Wouldn't want to be there at night.
Wayne
Went to Wyoming, county, on Friday afternoon (Aug. 29th) for my yearly Summer AAA baseball game with three friends, but it didn't look too promising, i.e. rain forcast for Fri. and Sat. AND I thought "what else is there to do in Scranton, Penn ?" That night saw the Poor Red Sox from Pawtucket, RI play the Philly's from Scranton for #1 and 2 in their division. The stadium was packet and except for a skunk delay it was an enjoyable game, yes a skunk entered the outfield.
That night we stayed in the Del. Lackawanna & Western RxR station. It's a 6 story Radison hotel that has retained much of it's original appearance ... except for the rooms themselves.
The next day, while waiting for our second baseball game, we went to Steamtown. It's in downtown Scranton. We rode #2317 the 26 miles round trip to Moscow ... yes, I was a bit confused at first too. This place is "Steatown National Historic Site", vs. "Steamtown USA" in Bellows Falls, VT. Both have lots of steam engines.
We did Cooper's for lunch ... it's a fancy sea food place, then saw Scranton play the Montreal AAA team from Ottawa.
Sunday we did the local SUBWAY (this is the on topic part). Well kind of ... there's a mine tour that includes a 1,800 foot cable car ride down to a tour of the tracks, tunnels & elect. mules that pulled the coal cars throughout this mine until the 1960s.
It was a splendid mini vacation, which even my non-rail buff friends enjoyed.
P.S. Steamtown is about to open a trolley section of their museum. Planned is a 22 mile ride to a distination other then Moscow.
Mr t__:^)
Please correct me if I'm wrong. Didnt steamtown in vermont have some problem and the equipment taken over by the parks service and moved to scranton? I thought the vermont steamtown was closed.
That was my understanding, also. As I recall from a few years back when we took the Green Mountain Railroad, a tourist line from Bellows Falls, we passed the sight of what had been Steamtown, and there was not a whole lot there. Besides, there is no other listing in the Tourist Railroad Guide for any type of Steamtown in Vermont.
Sorry about that ... I'm not a big steam fan so hadn't been keeping up with that change. I had an old brochure from the VT outfit that I looked for when I got back home as the name rang a bell with me. Too bad I never made it up there as I understand it was a big operation.
The Scranton version has three working steam engines, plus the shop tour showed that they had two more stripped down, one was theirs, one is a revenue job (actually one of the three was also in for "Inspection"). They have a good number of other engines "stuffed & mounted" on the property, one is a Big Boy. Their small steamer, think it was a 0-6-0 was doing yard work. Don't know if the moves had a real purpose or the crews were just having fun, but it was nice to see it working as it must have done for many years back & forth in the yard. Also saw this little guy come in for the night and get moved on the turn table to it's track in the round house.
Mr t__:^)
I think the issue is less complicated than it sounds. Didn't Steamtown simply move from Vermont to Pennsylvania?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Not exactly. The Steamtown Foundation moved most of the exhibits, and did a bit of culling and swapping, to Scranton from Bellows Falls back in the early '80s as part of an incentive package from the local government. The National Park Service took it over around 1986/1987 and made additional, significant changes in the collection over the next few years. They also put in place a master plan for interpreting the Lackawanna complex that is still being implemented. While they share the Steamtown name with the late Nelson Blount's complex in Bellows Falls, little more than a few locomotives and pieces of rolling stock remain from Nelson's dream. The Park Service's vision is different than Nelson's was - whether it is better, worse, or simply different is a matter of much debate and I don't want to start that here.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Apparently, there's been some problem on the RR with the new Bilevel equipment. There is a "General Notice" in effect, that has crews following the same procedure that would be in effect if the door interlocks were bypassed. Specifically, crews need to key their doors open, and signal "All clear" to the conductor, and key the doors back closed before proceeding.
This morning, #507 was running about 13 minutes late, and when Nassau asked if anything was wrong, they simply said "no problems, Long Island #507 is complying with General Notice 619". Apparently that caused the 15 minute delay or so. Strangely enough, though, my train, 509, followed behind it by only 15 minutes, and didnt' seem to be delayed by this same problem (although they had to do the same thing).
Anyone know what prompted this? Was there a dragging incident, or just someone detecting a defect in the door interlock system.
I'm not sure, but I've heard in a few other forums that crews are instructing passengers to *stay away* from the the doors enroute, becaue there have been incidents of the doors self opening. I don't know if it can be believed, though I'm sure if it's true the local media will pick it up sooner or later and have a field day...
What does the door interlock do?
[ What does the door interlock do? ]
Door interlocks prevent the train from taking power unless the doors are closed. Similar in principle on LIRR MU's, the LIRR bilevels, and NYCT subway cars.
GN619 is still in effect, and causing all station stops to take an additional minute or so, as crews key themselves off and back on. The conductor also has to give a different buzzer signal to the Engineer before proceeding, long, short, short, long. Instead of just two longs. I suppose this is a confirmation that they've followed the door cut-out procedure.
As I was travelling along the Cross-Bronx Expwy, passing well under the grand concourse, I was wondering: Is the IND subway above or below the expressway. The "structure" above the expressway must be tall enough to contain the subway. On the same note, if the subway were below the expressway, it would be very deep below the street level.
If it's above the expressway, why did they keep it enclosed, as opposed to letting some fresh air and light in?
I think the Cross Bronx Expressway was built after the IND subway opened, so the construction of the expressway wouldn't have altered the structure of the IND subway. I also think that you're right - the subway is over the expressway - but I am not certain.
--Mark
[I think the Cross Bronx Expressway was built after the IND subway opened, so the construction of the expressway wouldn't have altered the structure of the IND subway. I also think that you're right - the subway is over the expressway - but I am not certain.]
The subway is over the expressway. You're also right about the relative construction dates - the subway predates the expressway by at least 15 years.
That's an interesting location. I grew up in the area. The subway is under the Concourse, but the Councourse passes above 174th Street. If you're on 174th Street you can see the protusion of the Concourse line. To enter the station: There is the conventional entrance on the Concourse in which you walk down stairs, but if you're entering from 174th street you must walk up a short flight of stairs and after paying you fare you again walk upstairs to the platform. Remember the Cross Bronx is below 174th Street - so if the subway was under the Cross Bronx it would be very deep.
Wayne
If you look fast, or are stuck in traffic on the Cross Bornx, you can see the bottom of the subway structure when you cross the Concourse. Unlike most of the bridges, this one has a boxy look to it.
You certainly don't have to look fast on the Cross Bronx-You can probably look at that bridge for about a half hour!!!
Can somebody out there tell me if I can buy a subway token at the Howard Beach subway station (near JFK) close to midnight on a week night?
Probably. There will at least be an open token booth at one enterance.
To find out, look at the globe at the station enterance. If it is red, the booth mey not be open all times.
If I know I am going to be riding at late hours in advance, I'll purchase tokens in advance. This saves me from having to go into my pocket, fiddle with change, alerting potential muggers that I have some loot.
Doug aka BMTman
You can buy a token at any subway station at any time of day except for Aqueduct Racetrack, where you can neither buy them nor use them, whether the station is open or not. And all the stations that the 5 stops alone at north of 180 Street in the Bronx which do not sell tokens nightly, but they are sold during the day and are accepted at all times. Why do you need a token anyway? They're USELESS.
There are two entrances to the Howard Beach station. One from the Airport and one from the neighborhood. Even though the two entrances are physically close together, because of the configuration of the airport perimeter and some marshland, you can't easily go from one to the other. (you'd probably have to drive a few miles to go from one entrance to the other without entering the system.)
I believe that both entrances are staffed 24/7. The entrance from the neighborhood definitely is. I have seen the token booth at the airport entrance open as late as 11PM on a Sunday night (with that entrance responsible for most of the traffic during that time), so I suspect that it too is open 24/7.
Chuck
I came through Howard Beach from the airport side at 2:30 AM late last year - I was using a MetroCard but the booth was open. There were about 15-20 of us who came off the airport shuttle bus at that time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can always buy a MetroCard ONLINE with free USPS 1st Class mail delivery or you can pay for UPS 2nd Day or Fedex Overnight.
I'll give you four more options:
1. U can probally get a MetroCard at a newstand at the airport
2. Buy MC on-line at WWW.metorcard.citysearch.com
3. Call Queens Surface (718-445-3100) for a $30 value card (plug plug)
4. If you just have to have a token e-mail me off line & I'll sell you new and old ones (you pay the postage).
Mr t__:^)
Do any of the newsstands at LGA's United wing sell MCs?
If Todd Glickman or another frequent flyer is reading your post they'll direct you right to a spot to buy a MC at La Guardia.
Mr t__:^)
I know that the Hudson News Stand in the USAirways terminal at LGA has Metrocards (though I don't know if there are Fun Passes there... I order mine by mail!).
Thanks Todd, I thought it was at US Air, but didn't want to miss-speak
Mr t__:^)
I heard something on WINS News this morning about a city cop who somehow got on a train at Canal Street, then suffered some kind of "blackout". He awakes to find himself in a subway tunnel (location not given). He radios for help, but no backup arrives -- so to get attention supposedly fires 15 rounds into the tunnel damaging signaling equipment, etc.
I heard most lower Manhattan trains had delays do to this truly BIZARRE occurance.
Has anyone heard further details about this?
Doug aka BMTman
There's an Associated Press story thqat just ran on this. It said he last remembered being with some co-workers at Canal St. (doesn't say which line) and the next thing he remembers is waking up in the subway tunnel with his ankle broken in two places then shoots out the signal light to attract a rescuer.
I'm guessing this had to happen on the BMT at Canal Street, since any other line there is busy enough that an unconcious cop wouldn't survive long lying in the tunnel.
According to what I heard, the incident took place on the IRT near Houston Street. The off-duty cop was on the catwalk when he came to (so why didn't any train operators see him? Inquiring minds want to know.)
I'd say there's a lot more to this story that what's been given already.
Apparently, a T/O spotted him after he came up on a signal that was (shot) out. I'm at a loss to understand how he got there in the first place, why he felt the need to empty his gun all over the tunnel - what I read on NY1's site was that he was trying to get help?
I kept reading the story, but, something doesn't really add up here.
I know the man was in distress, but emptying your gun into a train signal is just plain crazy. Who knows how many riccochets could have actually killed someone.
And this "waking up on the subway tracks without knowing how I got here" story just doesn't jive. Wasn't there a story a couple of years back about an unused storage shed near Canal St that was being used by hookers turning tricks? Makes you wonder ...
Maybe the signal had a hammer in its hands.......
Hats off to Lou from Middletown. That was really funny, in a painful sort of way.
We don't know that he discharged his guns all over the tunnel. He claims he shot out a signal to get attention.
Who knows where (or in whom) the other dozen or so bullets are.
We shall hear much more of this, I think.
This entire episode sounds like a great murder mystery -- if it turns out to be something interesting. It could be something lousy and mundane, however -- cop gets drunk with friends, argument, falls or is pushed off the platform, fires a bunch of shots, sobers up and concocts story. This story is no stranger than the cop who has a violent argument and shoots his son.
Sounds like they need to raise recruiting standards a little at the NYPD. Unfortunately, I understand they are having trouble filling out bodies, lousy job that it is.
Well, we can guess that this cop was doing something he shouldn't have been doing -- hence his suspension WITHOUT pay. Usually, if there was nothing suspicious about his story he'd been suspended with pay.
I just wonder what the heck this guy was smoking -- Emptying TWO guns into a subway signal....
The Daily News said the found himself on the tracks with a broken ankle (two places, went to surgery Tue nite). Crawled to the catwalk, use his shirt to cover a singal but no T/O stopped. He then fired his clip into a signal disableing it and a T/O stopped. The whole line was shut down for 4 or so hours.
He was off duty out with coworkers and does not know how he ended up on the tracks.
IF he covered a signal with his shirt, why wasn't it reported?
One gun, a 9mm. 15 rounds would be normal.
One of the stories made reference to "both guns."
On Army .45s, SOP was to not fill the cartridges full to avoid jamming. I don't know what NYPD practice was.
I imagine the "second gun" they refer to was his "throw away" to be used when he kills an un armed civilian.
It happened on the West Side IRT. At Canal Street. He emptied his gun to get attention......
3TM
42St-Times Sq/PABT. Transfer available to the A,C,E,N,R,S,1,7,9. The M6, M7, M10, M16, M27, M42, and M104 upper level. Connection to the PABT. This is a 148 Bound 3 making express stops to 96. The next express stop will be 72. Step in, step on, step off, step out, stand clear of the closing doors please.........
The officer was suspended without pay, he fired 21 rounds, 15 from his duty 9mm and 6 from a "backup" .38. Service was halted for 4 hours. Short follow story in today's Daily News. The union is trying to get him reinstated or at least suspension with pay.
Theres something the cops not telling us. Like how did he end up in the tunnel. How far was he in the tunnel and how was his ankle broken?
What caused him to blackout and for how long?
If he was sleepwalking why didn't anyone see him?
Is Steve son-in-law a cop? What does he think of this?
Has anyone ever been in the tunnel under those apartment buildings in the Bronx where the Polo Ground Shuttle (155th Street Shuttle) ran until 1958? There must be a way to enter the tunnel and photograph it. Who owns the tunnel? Maybe the City of New York or the Apartment building owner? Maybe they can be approached to get access?
Sounds like an excellent Subtalk Fan Trip.
ANY IDEAS.
The tunnel and station belong to the TA, atleast they did 15 years ago. The entrance through the apartment building was closed back in the 50's. The best way to get inside, is go around the station end, and scale the rock outcroppings next to the bronze door that says "IRT". This takes you up to the island platform. But once you get there, you'll find people living in it- atleast we did! As I recall, it has 2 tracks, but the sigs were ripped out.
I believe the door you speak of is at street level and says IRT with the letters vertically. There were two tracks there and I'm not surprised to hear the signals were removed.
Are the tracks still there?
I do recall seeing the tracks inside the tunnel. The rails outside the tunnel were gone, but the ties were still there, and some 3rd rail insulators. Keep in mind, this tunnel only dates from 1917. Yes, the IRT door is at, right in back of Yankee stadium. I imagine that an enterprising rail historian may have the correct key...
This door I assume was for the Jerome-Anderson Avenues Station? Think about this, Sedgewick Avenue and Jerome-Anderson Avenues Stations where extremely close together.
Yes, they were close, but they were seperated by a very large rock cliff, which presents a real barrier to people wanting to transfer to the putnam division of the NYC, which is what the station on the riverfront side (Sedgewick Av) was mostly for. People going to the "Bronx" or Yankee stadium would use Jerome Anderson. The tunnel is only about 1,200 feet long.
Recently I went and took some pictures of the steelwork that is left from it, and I tried to find the tunnel. But I could not find any good
way to get close to the tunnel or even to get a good angle to take some pictures.
Mr. Pirmann, I will dig out some photographs I took in the 1980's of the shuttle I could see at the time. You could post them.
Mr. Pirmann, how about a Subtalk Fan Trip to the abandoned tunnel of the 155th Street Shuttle under those apartment building? This mystery has eluded rail fans for decades to see the remains of the shuttle.
Sounds great to me if someone can manage to gain access. You want to coordinate it or are you asking for someone to do it?
I'm not in the northeast and my contacts are limited. Maybe someone else can take my suggestion and implement it.
9/7/99
If a trip is planned,how about during the winter? With foilage at a minimum and of course the most important reason is not encountering "tunnel dwellers" who may cause us problems. Yes,safety in numbers so
the more the merrier. If it's cold,nobody would want to call that tunnel home,only in the warm weather.
Bill Newkirk
Friend of Mike H.
I'd come back to do this, and I no longer, alas, reside in the city of NY. I'd spend five hours on a bus for the privilege of going there. Someone pick a date.
Could we do this on a Sunday?
I prefer Sundays myself.
How about Sunday Oct 17, I hear that Metro North maybe
having an open house on the 16. That would give us out-of-towners
two reasons to make it to NY that weekend.
How bout the Sunday of Columbus Day weekend? Or the Sunday after Thanksgiving? (or Vets Day?)??? May be we could also cover some of the territory that some of us have (has?) has missed; ie. the IRT Brooklyn lines past Utica..etc etc..
[ How bout the Sunday of Columbus Day weekend? Or the Sunday after
Thanksgiving? (or Vets Day?)??? ]
The sat and sun of Columbus day weekend will be "Autumn in New York" at the Shoreline Trolley Musuem. Some people won't be able to make the Polo Grounds shuttle venture, because they'll be up in Branford with the veterans that ran there!
Although, if y'all promise to come up to the Museum on Saturday, Sunday would be OK for the trip :)
Pardon my ignorance but just where are we talking about ?
Is it on the IND above the 145th split ?
I don't see any thing in Peter Dougherty's track plan book that would give me a clue that anything else was their.
Mr t__:^)
Nope - this is the last part of the 9th Ave EL that became the Polo Grounds Shuttle, running between 155th St / 8th Ave, Manhattan and 167th St / Jerome Ave, the Bronx until (if memory is right) 1958. There's a section of the line that ran underground and has part of the defunct Sedgwick Ave station in it. The tunnel is there but it has been "sealed off".
And that leads to a question. The portions of the 2nd Ave Line that were built are "sealed off" but are inspected every 2 weeks or so. Since this portion of the Polo Grounds shuttle runs under an apartment building, and the tunnel wasn't filled in (just sealed at the ends), is this area also inspected periodically?
I'd agree that a trip should be made in late fall when all the vegetation has gone to sleep for the winter.
--Mark
Question!!!
You can see the turnoff to nowhere from the el on River Av north of Steinbrenner Yankee Stadium and almost every transit history book has a picture of the Polo Grounds station where the shuttle ended. Both sides were els. So where was the tunnel? In the Middle?? And since the 2 stadiums were very close to each other over the bridge the shuttle couldn't have been very long. Right? When I was a 'lil kid my dad took us to a Mets game at the Polo Grounds (b4 Shea) and I remember we parked in a Yankee Sta lot and walked across the bridge. I guess the 2 parks shared parking facilities.
You can see the turnoff to nowhere from the el on River Av north of Yankee Stadium and almost every transit history book has a picture of the Polo Grounds station where the shuttle ended. Both sides were els.
So where was the tunnel? In the Middle??
Yes. Think of it as the opposite of what you currently see at 125th St / Broadway on the #1 line. The line was elevated, but because of the ridge roughly between Sedgwick and Andersen Avenues, the line went from El to tunnel. The tunnel portal nearest the Harlem River starts from the Major Deegan Expressway, and is under the expressway I believe. I'm not 100% certain where the other portal is. There's a set of apartment buildings right over the tracks at that point.
And since the 2 stadiums were very close to each other over the
bridge the shuttle couldn't have been very long. Right?
Right. The section from 155th St / 8th Ave to the connection with the Jerome Ave line couldn't be more than 3/4 of a mile. The tunnel section itself is about 1,200 feet.
--Mark
There are also some buildings along Jerome Ave. (a tire shop is the closest, I think) just below where the tunnel portal is, leading to the odd situation of a tunnel entrance being on a building's roof.
As for the line running under the Deegan: I just don't believe it. The Deegan is not on the ridge, but in the "valley" below it, right along the Harlem River. Since everyone agrees the river was crossed by bridge, not tunnel, the Deegan must also have been crossed by bridge (overpass). There is no room vertically for a line to run under the Deegan and over the Harlem River.
the portal at the Deegan side is located right near a pedestrian overpass of the Deegan. The line did cross the river on a swing bridge, dating back to the late 1880's, this was removed around 1955 or so. There's a picture of it in Arcara's book.
9/12/99
With all the talk of arranging a date for a walking tour of this tunnel,let's all bear in mind the following. The summer is over and before the winter comes there are lots of weekend activities such as fan trips,trolley meets and what have you. If we agree on a date,let's make sure there isn't a fantrip on the same day. After all there is a LIRR fantrip,the repainted FL-9 Peekskill runs and Harmon Shop open house to name a few. So let's check our calendars,set a date and get together for some exploring and picture taking.
Bill Newkirk
Dan; I've been there and the portals are under the Deegan. Consider that the NY & Northern trackage had to rise to a higher elevation in order to pass over the tracks of the NYC & HRRR. The NY & Northern built the bridge over the river in order to connect with the Ninth Av trains at 155 St. The el did not start using the Putnam Bridge until many years later. When they did the el was at grade level with the NY & Northern(by then Putnam Division) but above the Hudson Line tracks. The el tracks were still lower than the streetgrade through and passengers has to walk upstairs to exit. The Deegan was arelative newcomer to the area and since it couldn't go under it had to pass over the el tracks. Its easy to see this today as the Deegan is on the top most level,then the abandoned Putnam ROW a level below then the MNRR Hudson Line tracks at river level.
Larry,RedbirdR33
OK, I guess you know what you are talking about, it just seems hard to picture. The bridge must have been very close to the water, and must have had to open even for fairly small boats.
9/12/99
As per my earlier post on setting a date for a walking tour of the Polo grounds shuttle. Looking at my calendar:
Sept.18 & 19 Trans rail expo - CNJ terminal Liberty St Pk
Sept.25 LIRR/ERA Farewell to push pull diesel trip
Oct.2 Hudson-Bergen Grand Opening (reported,
not yet confirmed)
Oct.2 & 3 New York days at Shoreline Museum (Branford)
Oct.2 & 3 Repainted FL-9 runs to Peekskill
? ? ? ? ? Metro North Harmon shop open house
This is what I mean about too many events and not enough weekends. Can anybody add any activities I didn't touch base on. The weekend that there is nothing going on,that's when we have the walking tour.
Fare enough!
Bill Newkirk
Autumn in NY at Shore Line is 9-10 October, according to their website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Lets do it!!!!!
Its surprising that considering the historical signifigance of the 9 Avenue area on the West End Line there is so little in print about it.
The West End trains use the 38 Street Tunnel to reach the 4 Avenue Line. This tunnel predates the subway connection and was built to allow trains to reach the Brooklyn waterfront .
The additional tunnel bellmouths south of the tunnel probably dates to the time of the Dual Contracts. There is a picture of the west end of the tunnel in Paul Matus's Rapid Transit Booklet No 3.The tunnel itself has two tracks, next is a one track bellmouth and then a two track bellmouth. I would speculate that the one track bellmouth was a provision for running all three tracks of the combined Culver and West End Lines to the junction with the 4 Avenue Subway,which of course did not occur. The two track bellmouths were probably intended to be a new two track tunnel for the SBK which also was not built.
Larry
I was told that the "bellmouths' were actually only late victorian era architectural details to take up otherwise blank wall space.
You guys should check out the partially built tunnel to Staten Island.
The entrance is right on shore parkway- but watch that 115 ft drop to the station.
Bob, could you offer some better directions?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
NO NO NO NO,
The tunnel to Staten Island can be seen just leaving Whitehall St./South Ferry. There are two pockets you can see just as the train picks up speed on the downhill!!!
(LOL, I just had to meantion it for the 1,124,132 time)
I thought the start of tunnel pockets for a proposed Staten Island RR connection was in Bay Ridge and can be seen from the Belt Parkway near the Verrazano Bridge?
Please confirm, thanks.
Doug aka BMTman
The tunnel pockets in Manhattan were for a second tunnel to allow capacity for more Nassau loop service. The tunnel to S.I. was started (and filled in) in Owl's Head Park, where the Belt Parkway meets the waterfront for the first time.
You'll notice that where 4th Avenue crosses the Bay Ridge freight line, the walls of the 'R' tunnel open up to expose the outside very briefly. It's my understanding that was a projected connection from the 4th Avenue line to the tunnel to Staten Island.
No, that's the overpass over the Bay Ridge ROW. The connection to S.I. is in tunnel pockets somewhere near the Sea Beach split.
Wrong!!!!!!!!! There is connection to SI tunnel at that overpass.....
Q: Brigthton Express
Yes, the Q train also runs under Second Avenue in Manhattan for 60 blocks.
Where does the Q train run under Second Avenue? Brian
You should turn on your sarcasm detector. I said that no connection was ever planned on the R where it passes over the Bay Ridge Line. Q said there was, so I pointed out how she (trains are women) shouldn't be trusted.
Funny.....Real Funny DOPE!!!!!!!!!!!!
Q
You lose, so you resort to insults. Very credible. Remind me not to respond to your crap until you decide to grow up.
Hey, cut the flames out!
Whatever!!! Just go and take your sarcasm and critical viewpoints to another post like you always do........ Get out of my hair!!!!!!!!!
Q: Dont want any ANNOYING MVM's at my stations........
9/14/99
C'mon guys! Let's chill the heat or we'll resolve this with third rail protection boards at 10 paces !!
Bill Newkirk
Hey Q train, tone down the language please. Posting here is a privelage that can always be taken away.
Ill tone down the language but that guy need to cut his sarcastic reply to every post. It may be nice once in a while but every post this gut responded to always seems to be sarcastic and/or rude. He need to cool out as well.......
Q: Keeping my cool
The Brooklyn shaft is not filled in, although the SI side was. In Bklyn, its capped off by a 10' x 14' concrete slab located within the belt parkway perimeter near 68th st. There is a very large article in one of the local papers, ca 1964, with many construction photos, including pictures of the tunneling machine and 33' diameter cast steel liner rings being hoisted down that shaft. I have a complete set of plans, that shaft goes down about 115', and there is supposed to be a 4 track, 2 level station at the bottom. The approach lead was supposed to, or maybe does, run under senator street back to 4th Av. The tunnel was to be 4 tracks, two for electric freight, and 2 for the subway.
Even with growing up in Bay Ridge, I don't ever remember seeing a plan for the SI tunnel. Thanks much for the information.
It seems to confirm that the extra track space over the LIRR is located properly for a curve into Senator Street, either flying or at grade. The choice of Senator Street, though, seems odd--it's narrow, but then so is 69th Street (either 65th or 75th would have to have been used if they wanted to stay with wider streets). And in Manhattan, 53rd and other narrow streets have had tunnels.
What's the source of the plans and are copies available?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The plans and alot of newpaper articles can be had at the New York Public Library on 42nd St. Its listed in the card catalog as the "Narrows Tunnel" under the category of "Tunnels". There is a series of hardbound bid package plan books put out by the NYC Board Of Estimate.
The approach under Senator street was going to be tunnelled, not cut and cover. I read that land rights underground were taken away from under buildings along the route to accomodate the tubes. I think the approved route number was 121 or 123.
Its interesting to note that this tunnel was supported by the NYC Administration, was going to be paid for 60% by the Baltimore & Ohio RR, work was started in earnest, and it was killed by lawsuits and objections raised by the PORT AUTHORITY, because, as they admitted at the time, they wanted a total monopoly on all Trans- Hudson freight traffic from New York harbor through Westchester, something they have until this day, except for the handful of cars that find their
way through Cross Harbor.
Ummm, the NYC Board of Estimate was abolished by the Supreme Court in 1989.
On a standard subway track trippers will stop a train attempting to pass a red signal. I have ridden trains wrong railing and as such have a question:
when a train in revenue service (carrying passengers) Wrong rails- what keeps the train from being tripped? What am I missing here! It has to be simple!
When a train wrong rails, if there is signal protection, it's just like proceeding normally. There are signal stop arms( what you call
track trippers).Wrong railing with no signal protection the trainoperator has to operate the train at restricted speed( 10 miles an hour)
Wrong railing with no signal protection, the train operator has to keep the train at restricted speed and make sure the reverse stop arms go down so that the train does not get tripped.
Won't the stop arms of the opposite-direction signals be on the wrong side of the train and therefore have no effect?
They have an effect. Just because opposite direction signal stop arms are on the wrong side, doesn't mean they won't work for a train that's wrong railing. All road trains have trip cocks on both sides.
Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system.
subfan
[ Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work
trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B
divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its
second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a
train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system. ]
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
All trains have trip arms on both sides (except, a single unit from a married pair set might not, but it wouldn't be going anywhere on it's own), _BUT_ they don't have them on both sides at the front of the head car. Basically, there's a tripcock on the opposite side as soon as you get to an operating position in the opposite direction (i.e. the rear of the head car for single unit cars, or the rear of the second car for married pairs). In many cases, that's too far back for safety, hence the requirement to have a car with tripcocks on the correct side for operation.
But, all trains do have tripcocks on both sides, which is important to keep in mind as they will trip on any obstruction (either a stop arm or debris) in their path.
That's what I was trying to say; sorry if I wasn't clear.
subfan
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of American, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the British do.
As Mr. Webmaster, I have to ask why you posted that three times. :-)
-Dave
I made some spelling errors myself. I'm sure you have sometime in the past. SORRY!!!
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the
trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both
sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
The arm goes down before the train gets there, but not necessarily
LONG before. On many signals, a cut section is used. The retaining
circuit is a short track circuit a few car lengths beyond the
signal, then there is an IJ and a cut section, then the rest of the
block. When approaching that from the wrong direction, the arm
will only be driven clear when the short retaining circuit section
is occupied.
That's for automatics. For home balls, the logic is different.
The arm can never be driven clear by the occupancy of a track
circuit. If the signal is clear to begin with, the retaining
circuit prevents the arm from coming up under the train, but if
the signal is at stop, occupying the track circuit will not clear
the arm. That's why you can't key by a home ball (well, that and
the fact that the stop arm is located right at the IJ instead of
10 feet beyond it). Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because
home balls are supposed to protect against super-bad stuff like
running through switches or having a head-on collision with opposing
traffic.
Many interlocking plants are not fully signaled for bidirectional
flow. Marker signals are used to protect the limits of movement.
These are wrong-rail signals, usually dwarf, that are always at STOP.
Their stop arms behave like automatic signals and drive clear well
in advance of a train approaching from the normal direction.
[ Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because ]
You say you "can't" just charge and go. Other than rule, though, does anything stop you from tripping your way past the signal? (for others: tripping past means charging, going a carlength or so until you trip again, repeat).
also watch for NO KEY By signals!
When a train wrong rails, if there is signal protection, it's just like proceeding normally. There are signal stop arms( what you call
track trippers).Wrong railing with no signal protection the trainoperator has to operate the train at restricted speed( 10 miles an hour)
Wrong railing with no signal protection, the train operator has to keep the train at restricted speed and make sure the reverse stop arms go down so that the train does not get tripped.
Won't the stop arms of the opposite-direction signals be on the wrong side of the train and therefore have no effect?
They have an effect. Just because opposite direction signal stop arms are on the wrong side, doesn't mean they won't work for a train that's wrong railing. All road trains have trip cocks on both sides.
Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system.
subfan
[ Not quite - only the R-33S cars used on the 7 and some of the work
trains have dual tripcocks, used to be able to run on both the A and B
divisions. A train _could_ be tripped by a wrong-side tripper on its
second car, but only if the trip arm had not been driven down by a
train already being in the block governing that tripper, and I don't know that any such setups exist in the system. ]
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
All trains have trip arms on both sides (except, a single unit from a married pair set might not, but it wouldn't be going anywhere on it's own), _BUT_ they don't have them on both sides at the front of the head car. Basically, there's a tripcock on the opposite side as soon as you get to an operating position in the opposite direction (i.e. the rear of the head car for single unit cars, or the rear of the second car for married pairs). In many cases, that's too far back for safety, hence the requirement to have a car with tripcocks on the correct side for operation.
But, all trains do have tripcocks on both sides, which is important to keep in mind as they will trip on any obstruction (either a stop arm or debris) in their path.
That's what I was trying to say; sorry if I wasn't clear.
subfan
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of American, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the british do.
As Mr. Train Control, I need to inform all that in the United States of America, Signaling is spelled with with one "l" and not two "l's" like the British do.
As Mr. Webmaster, I have to ask why you posted that three times. :-)
-Dave
I made some spelling errors myself. I'm sure you have sometime in the past. SORRY!!!
I think we're talking about wrong-railing with correct (for the line) equipment. In that case, the
trip-arm would probably be down long before the train gets to it, so the question of arms on both
sides is moot. Interlockings are usually (always?) signalled in both directions, though.
The arm goes down before the train gets there, but not necessarily
LONG before. On many signals, a cut section is used. The retaining
circuit is a short track circuit a few car lengths beyond the
signal, then there is an IJ and a cut section, then the rest of the
block. When approaching that from the wrong direction, the arm
will only be driven clear when the short retaining circuit section
is occupied.
That's for automatics. For home balls, the logic is different.
The arm can never be driven clear by the occupancy of a track
circuit. If the signal is clear to begin with, the retaining
circuit prevents the arm from coming up under the train, but if
the signal is at stop, occupying the track circuit will not clear
the arm. That's why you can't key by a home ball (well, that and
the fact that the stop arm is located right at the IJ instead of
10 feet beyond it). Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because
home balls are supposed to protect against super-bad stuff like
running through switches or having a head-on collision with opposing
traffic.
Many interlocking plants are not fully signaled for bidirectional
flow. Marker signals are used to protect the limits of movement.
These are wrong-rail signals, usually dwarf, that are always at STOP.
Their stop arms behave like automatic signals and drive clear well
in advance of a train approaching from the normal direction.
[ Also, if you trip on a home ball, you can't
just charge and go. You either have to hook the arm or the tower
has to give you a call-on and you pull the lever. That's because ]
You say you "can't" just charge and go. Other than rule, though, does anything stop you from tripping your way past the signal? (for others: tripping past means charging, going a carlength or so until you trip again, repeat).
also watch for NO KEY By signals!
This is really Mr. Train Control's area. An occoupied
block holds the relay dropped. Contacts open. The signal
will go to red. However as it's still occupied, the stop
arm will remain down, so as not to trip the train still in
that block. When the block is clear, the signal will clear
as the relay picks up again. What makes the stop arm go up
and stay, is the the relay logic from the next block. An occupied block has a red with the arm down. The preceding block red with the arm raised, and before that a yellow.
For example: on an un occupied track, take a piece of
metal. Bridge over an insulated rail joint with it. The
signal will go to danger, red. The stop arm remains
retained.
Now if I were to change ends on a train. The block
occupied would already have the arm immeadiately
behind(now in front) down. As I went wrong rail, or as we
say against the current of traffic, the next block I enter
will be from the un-protected end. The stop arm will be
far ahead at the other end of the block. As soon as the
wheels cross the IJ, the stop arm will go down. It's the
same for when we key a signal, going the right way. So by
the time you get to the stop arm, it will have been down a
while already. The operting rules require the train be
operated at restricted speed for the obvious reasons.
That answer you? I hope I got it all right Dave?
But it gets more complicated than that. In the simplest of automatic
signal installations, the retaining track circuit is the entire
block ahead of the trip arm, as Erik described. So, when making
a movement against the normal flow of traffic in automatic territory
that is not set up for bi (hhh) traffic flow, the stop arm one signal
ahead of you is going down as you enter the block, and you have
nothing to worry about in terms of tripping.
However, in many locations, there are cut sections in use. A
short track circuit extends a few car lengths beyond the trip
arm and that acts as the retaining circuit. If you watch a train
pass a signal, see how far beyond the signal it gets before the
stop arm goes up behind it. In these cases, you must get much
closer to the trip before it will go down.
I see you where waiting for me to answer this one. I read Jeff H.'s respond and he is right. When there is not direction control for full headway feature for both directions of travel, example is the middle track on the Flushing Line, Concourse Line and other lines the reverse moves are permitted by reversing traffic levers at the two adjacent towers. Often the amount of reverse direction signals are limited to grade time signals only. In this case, the train stops are driven clear ahead of the train by the track circuit in the advance of the opposite direction signal. In other words, when the track circuit drops before the opposite direction train stop is approached then the train stop will drive clear with it's retaining circuit. In direction traffic control areas, the opposing train stops are driven clear by the traffic relay.
Today while waiting for a uptown A at 125th, I seen a R32 on the D lines!
Boy, talk about Deja Vu All Over Again - the "D" was where the R32 made their home from late 1967 to well into the 1970s. I wonder if it was a redeployed "N" train. Maybe Steve knows if there are any up at Concourse. Was this train in revenue service? Sure it wasn't an "A" train? There have been known to be some R32s on the "A" line.
Wayne
R32s were on the "D" up until the end of 1988 when the two "D" services (courtesy of the Manhattan Bridge construction) merged into one service and all service was provided by R68s and R68As.
OH No, this was a D, the digital sign said D and those horrible mylar signs on the side had that wonderful Orange D-6th Avenue Concourse Express sign!
Trevor
You mean you were actually able to tell that it was a "D" and not an "O" or a "Q" or something? I saw a "Q" of R32s back when they were still gadding about there and I swear it said "O". The yellow pixel dots were extremely dim on #3918 that day, and the glass was abstolutely philthy, heavily encrusted with munge and grime. "C" and "G" are especially difficult to decipher on the R32 bulkhead signs. I know my routes well enough to know that "C" and "G" only meet at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, but to the uninitiated, this can be a puzzlement.
Wayne
Yeap, I seen it good and clear, the only thing that pissed me off that I couldn't grasp my camera quick enough to get the pic!!!!!
Trevor
I'll bet those side route signs said something like, "D-Concourse/6th Ave./Brighton".
Oh and speaking of the R-32s, today marks 35 years since their inaugural press run to Grand Central terminal. I remember that day in 1964, but only because it ws my first day of school in second grade. The Beatles were big, and Mary Poppins had just come out.
Has it really been 35 years?
Heck, I'm a bit shoked that its been 22 years since I rode a J train to 168 St. in Jamaica. Since I'm 27 that seems like an eon.
Chris - I sympathise. But an eon is really more like the first memory I have of a D train made up of R1 cars.
It was more than a decade away from retirement and that was in 1960. I was only 5 at the time.
When the R32s were put on the D (late 60's), a few elderly R1-R9 cars were still in service on that line. I saw them at Rush hour and admired how well they kept pace with the R32s on the express track.
Flash to the present - the R1s are gone over 20 years and the R32s will be up for replacement in (my guess) less than 5 years.
Pretty likely I'll outlive those R32s.
When you've actually outlived a well built subway car, you know you're getting older.
At this point, I've outlived everything built prior to my birth in 1955 (year of my birth) and a few more including the R16, R17, R21,R22,R27 and R30 fleets. These were all built the year of my birth or more recently and yet are all gone now.
Geez! I feel old.
Actually, the R32 fleet isn't scheduled for retirement anytime soon. I guess they'll remain in service until the start coming apart at the seams. They very well could see 50 years of service (in 2014).
[ Actually, the R32 fleet isn't scheduled for retirement anytime soon. I
guess they'll remain in service until the start coming apart at the
seams. They very well could see 50 years of service (in 2014). ]
Then what will go when the R143's come? There's what -- 212 of them on the way?
The 32's are the oldest fleet in the system. Although they have been reliable, is there a good reason to keep them over any of the newer cars? (no R68 comments here :) ).
They're not drastically better than the R40/40M/42's.
According to the NY Div. ERA Bulletin this month (the same that listed all the proposed G.O.'s for next year, as mentioned in another thread), this new shipment of cars will not be enough to replace the 1574 cars from R-32 to 42, so they want to buy 660 new cars and overhaul again 665 R-32, 40m and 42, to extend them another 12-15 years.
What I wonder is why no R-38. I thought they were in good shape, and that the 40m/42 would be the next to go along with the slant 40's.
[ overhaul again 665 R-32, 40m and 42, to extend them another 12-15
years. What I wonder is why no R-38. I thought they were in good shape, and
that the 40m/42 would be the next to go along with the slant 40's. ]
I don't ride on 38's too much, but skipping the slants in favor of the 40M/42's certainly makes sense to me. Just from what one can see from a passenger's perspective, it seems like the 40M and 42 are in better shape than the 40 slants. I guess they got a more thorough overhaul last time.
Now, to see about getting a 40 slant for Branford...
The R38's are not in that list to be overhauled because of a "structural deficiency." I have not heard specifically what it is, but they are safe cars for now, but can't last 50 years! I can tell you they leak badly when it rains and when they are washed. Check their roofs. Some have " black lines" making them look like zebras! Some roofs are all silver.
I noticed 4122-23 had some roof work done recently.It's all silver.
Nothing will be retired when the R143's start running. There is a car shortage as it is, plus more cars will be needed for the new 63rd. St. service when it opens.
I think the performance of the R32 IS drastically better than the R42, not sure about the R40.
Nothing will be retired when the R143's start running. There is a car shortage as it is, plus more cars will be needed for the new 63rd. St. service when it opens.
I think the performance of the R32 IS drastically better than the R42, not sure about the R40.
NOTHING is schedule to go when the R143s arrive. These are to be a supplement for the "B" division fleet, not a replacement.
Wayne
They will need more trains when the 63rd Sreet Extension opens.
When the 63rd st connection opens Will the Q now operate to say 179st or Jamaica center? Why will so many new subway cars be needed? isn't the Queens blvd corridor already bursting at the seams, and would it be able to accomodate the increased service?
If the Q is extended to 179 or Jamaica ctr or even Continental Avenue I see maybe the need for 40-60 new cars but the R143 will probably be going to the L line with the new signals be installed(Communication Based Train Control)...
Here we go again! No service plan has been set! With so many ideas being expressed on this thread, most people will be unhappy over whatever the service plan turns out to be! The express tracks ARE at capacity but the local tracks are not. There will be even more capacity for trains from Manhattan with the G trains no longer operating there. Yes, the R143's are scheduled for the L line. This will allow excess Eastern Division cars be shifted elsewhere. Maybe not to the Queens corridor, but the ERA reported a couple of years ago they will go to the N line, with their 75 footers reassigned.
The R32 are extremely well built and rugged cars, surely capable of giving 50 years of service, considering the substantial GOH given them in 1989. They ride better than the R40M/R42s. The R38 is on almost equal footing with the R32 as far as ride is concerned. The Slant R40 aren't quite as good as the R32s or R38s, but better than the R42. The seats on the R40 need replacing - they're awful.
Wayne
The R40 Slants are going bye bye. I dont't think they will last another 2 years. The R32's have held up very well. They are getting another overhaul. The flat seats on the slants are the worst. You slide all over the place. I'll take an R32 over the other eqipment.
9/9/99
Re:those uncomfortable seats on the R-40's,if the T.A. scraps them,chiropractors will lose business !!
Bill Newkirk
The R40 slants will definatley stay in service longer than the more mechanically troublesome R42. I'd say another decade at least, which is when the MTA will probably put in another order for new subway cars.
"The Slant R40 aren't quite as good as the R32s or R38s"
And this from Mr. Slant-40! A bit of a wandering eye, eh?
subfan
Don't get me wrong - the Slant R40 is NOT as smooth a ride as the R38 or the Phase II R32. I just happen to be quite fond of the overall appearance of the Slants. I like the interior of the R38s better too.
The Slant R40 has a "harder" feel to it than either of the above.
Plus those seats - well, I don't sit in 'em; I'm always up front looking out.
Wayne
The Slant R40 has the best railfan window.
The best railfan window of course was on the standards 'cause they opened and the wind was like being on a motorcycle.
Don't forget - the R-21s and R-22s had drop sash windows on their storm doors as well.
I agree that the slant R-40s have the best railfan window. On top of that, they're nice and quick.
Well, there are exactly TWO R21/R22 style windows still out there, both on R26 cars: #7773 and #7821, if you're lucky to catch one as the lead motor. They're usually on the #5 line, occasionally on the #2. They're out of E180th Street yard.
Wayne
Maybe we'll see one of them next month.
Yes, and we'll both probably be scratching our heads wondering what it REALLY says!
BTW STEVE - B: OCTOBER 27 1999 - Approved as a vacation day. I just found out I had 21 V-days piled up. So I took Nine of them.
Also: November 8 too, Simon Billis is on his way across the pond again. This is going to be a fine fall of Subway riding.
Wayne
9/10/99
Steve, the unique slant 40 storm door window was a godsend for the children. The R-15,16,17 porthole was a study in frustration. Count how many times in the summer they were open. And how the hell could you open them?? The R-1-9's were nice and wide,ideal for three across.
Bill Newkirk
But the R1-9's had some sort of metal mesh inside the glass.
The R-10's had this too, and I even saw it in a couple R-36's!
I believe the R-1s (and maybe the R-4s as well) had a single pane of glass in their storm doors, and no chicken wire. The R-6 series, R-7 series and R-9 all had the chicken wire, along with the split window pane. Ditto for the R10s. The D-Type Triplexes also have the chicken wire in the side door window panels. They have a single-leaf side door. I think the last cars to have the single-leaf doors were the Steinway WF Lo-V's of 1938. BTW is anyone attending to the lone survivor of this fleet, languishing in CI Yard along with R10 #3184? The salt air is tough on carbon steel.
Wayne
This chicken wire glass discussion reminds me of an incident I had on a D train I was operating in the mid '80's before the R32's underwent GOH. This was my put in out of Concourse Yard one morning. The block car (which would be my operating car toward Brighton Beach) was 3656. The storm door glass window looked strange to me and it took me a while to realize it had the chicken in between 2 panes of glass. I thought nothing of it until....I was on the express track leaving Prospect Park. When I passed under the overpass at Parkside Ave., I heard a crash. I would bring the train into Church Ave, station and investigate. Before I could, someone knocked on the cab door and told me a lady got hit in the face by flying glass. When I got into the station, I observed the young lady had little nicks all over her face. Fortunately, she told me she did not feel any glass go into her eyes. The glass blew out and was in pieces all over the floor. This was not shatterproof glass and it had no reason being in that storm door. It must have been forced in to fit. I alerted Command Center, signaled for police, one responded (at that time the cops knew what the whistle/horn code was! LOL) and fortunately one was there and took her away. I isolated the car, and when we got to Brighton Beach the RCI and well respected Motor Instructor Sambuccini got on. They both blew their gaskets! The train was ordered shopped to CIYD (another AM interval not operated!) for investigation and we all kept a piece of glass in our lockers as evidence. We figured we would hear from her again sometime when she sued the TA! We all wrote our G2
's and that was it. As it turned out, I never heard another word ever again about the incident.
T.S.S. YOU MEAN!!!!
He's a motor instrutor.
oops. motor instructor
I thought the title was T.S.S.
It is. He goes by the old title. Brian
I had the pleasure of meeting this gentleman in the late 60's when I first started exploring the system. IMHO,his knowledge and enthusiasm for the job made him one of the few who can legitimately claim the title of Motor Instructor.
I'm still grateful to him for sharing that knowledge with a snot nosed kid who liked trains but knew little about them (me).
Sam was the best motor instructor knowledge wise and the best there will ever be. He puts the overwelming majority of todays TSS's to shame. In those days, the trainmasters let their subordinates do their jobs, not looking over their shoulders constantly such as they do today.
Of course, today no more trainmasters, they are called superintendents.
Is this guy still around?
No, at that time they were known as Motor Instructors. They supervised motormen and conductors only. Because those were the jobs they knew well because they did them previously. They did not tell dipatchers, assistant dispatchers or towermen how to do their jobs such as they do today. At that time "T.S.S." was known as Times Square Stores.
Well, you're right about the R-1s and R-4s having a single large pane of glass in their storm doors, but IIRC, most of them did have chicken wire. I could be wrong, though. I'm almost positive #100 at the Transit Museum has chicken wire embedded in its storm door windows.
It's possible that replacement windows didn't have chicken wire. I rode on some R-10s which had it, and on others which didn't.
Those certainly were big windows on the R-1/9s. They extended down quite a bit, although not as much as the slant R-40 railfan windows.
This technically wasn't a railfan window but remember when the LIRR had no locomotive in the rear and you could stand in the rear out in the open?
9/10/99
Jeff,I agree with you about the BMT Standard drop sash window. What about the D-types bigger window. I do rememberwind rushing by,smell of creosote from track ties on warm summer days and let's not forget when the motorman would blow the whistle to warn track crews. Now that's an ear blasting experience !!
Bill Newkirk
You're right, those flat seats are the main reason I HATE the R40. R42 type seats would be a major improvement.
The R40 (slant and modified) seatbottoms and R42 seatbottoms are interchangable. Look closely at the ENY cars. Sometimes you will find "the wrong" seatbottom.
The last time I rode out to 168th St. was on a QJ, 30 years ago.
Actually, I just realized that yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of the closing of the outer three stations of the J line. Boy, I wish I had a time machine so I could go back to that time and show what the el closing would do to that neighborhood.
Actually, I just realized that yesterday was the 22nd anniversary of the closing of the outer three stations of the J line. Boy, I
wish I had a time machine so I could go back to that time and show what the el closing would do to that neighborhood.]
Closing the end of the J wouldn't have been so bad for the neighborhood *if* the Archer Avenue line had been ready to take its place. But closing it years before Archer Avenue opened was downright boneheaded.
IIRC, a few major retailers pressured the TA to close the outer end of that line prematurely. After that happened, those retailers went out of business. Guess we know who got the last laugh there, don't we?
When it was closed down did those retailers sing the Christmas song, "Noel, Noel"??
{{{ BASH!!! }}} Double Rim Shot!
Wayne
More like "No Customers, No Customers" ...
Maybe it was "Thanks for the Memories." Or "Easy Come, Easy Go."
On the same topic, there is a photo in the 1956 Americana Annual under New York City of a woman holding a placard which says "Happy No El", with the remaining support columns of the dismantled 3rd Ave. el visible. Supposedly, the photo was taken in November of 1955.
There are people that sell photographs from that era on the J line. Some are members of the Electric Railroaders Association, if you're interested.
Yep, I remember it well. The D, along with the AA and B lines, received R-32s when the Chrystie St. connection opened. They demonstrated their jackrabbit quickness on the CPW stretch. I remember watching one of those trains whiz past 81st St., and those R-32s sure made it look easy. I also remember the way they would glide into a station, compared to the way the R-1/9s would lumber in with their associated AMUE snarls and hisses.
No, there's nothing weird about R-32s on the D. In fact, I'd welcome such a thing. I'll leave it at that.
The D was supposed to get them back this year, along with 42's, (because of the cupling of the 68's), but I don't know what happened with this.
I have another weird one: yesterday I waited for a C train. The train was made up of R32 cars--The front sign showed J !! (Sorry--did not get car number)
Sounds like somebody was funning there! Or perhaps they left their good glasses home, and took a perfunctory look at the sign, deciding it looked enough like "C". Those signs can display any letter A thru Z (including I, O etc.) as well as 0 through 9. Control's via a dial somewhere in the cab I believe.
Wayne
I have seen this control panel from a crack in the door and whent he T/O had the door open. It is a keypad (like the bus destination key pads).
The Newark City Subway re-opened this morning. A friend who is an operator there says that they are using the pantographs. I am going there on Friday afternoon. I'll post my findings. The line is still closed on weekends.......Mark W.
It was free on Tuesday.
They are now using the pantographs, although the trolley poles are still mounted (they were not removed).
The trolley poles will NOT be removed. NJT has advised me that they will use the trolley poles to move disabled cars. They will not be able to switch over on the fly.
And if they sell some of the fleet off, I'm sure whom ever buys it would want or might need the poles.
They are now using the pantographs, although the trolley poles are still mounted (they were not removed).
The trolley poles will NOT be removed. NJT has advised me that they will use the trolley poles to move disabled cars. They will not be able to switch over on the fly.
And if they sell some of the fleet off, I'm sure whom ever buys it would want or might need the poles.
What is the physical difference between "trolley wire" and wire that needs a pantograph to make contact - that is, between the old and new wire on the Newark City Subway?
9/9/99
One major reason , correct me if I'm wrong , is that catenary wire must be tight so sliding pantograph won't cause wire to rise. Trolley poles don't have the same tension as pantographs.
Bill Newkirk
[ One major reason , correct me if I'm wrong , is that catenary wire
must be tight so sliding pantograph won't cause wire to rise. Trolley
poles don't have the same tension as pantographs. ]
I think that's true (don't know for sure), but there are other obvious differences as well:
(1) clearance -- there needs to be no obstructions within X distance from the centerline of the track other than the wire.
(2) Turnouts -- while you don't need the same type of frogs, you need to be somewhat more careful about clearances, so the pans don't catch the wires from the diverging route (?)
But pantograph catenary also has lots of neat things that you can do that you can't do with a trolley wire -- because you don't need a continuous wire to follow. I.e. section breaks can have physical separation of wire, instead of having to use insulators (you have overlapping segments of wire, one comes down lower, and the pan stays on the lowest one).
I'm pretty sure that it is possible to construct an overhead system compatible with both pantograph and trolley pole operation. I would imagine that at least one museum operation does this. Certainly it has got to be simpler than having dual-guage track! (That's very messy!).
Catenary zig-zags, trolley wire typically runs straight. For the catenary, this is the way of evening out the wear on the pans (rather than having the wire wear a groove, which could eventually catch and cause problems). Trolley wire has frogs and may have operating switches in the wire as well (not often, but it has been done), catenary doesn't require this.
I'm not 100% familiar with catenary operation, but I've not seen section breaks as described above; rather, I've seen a dead section of catenary at the same level as the regular catenary. Depending on the RR amd the length of the train being operated, this section may be quite long - there's a stretch on the NJCL that must be at least 1000'.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I'm pretty sure that it is possible to construct an overhead system compatible with both pantograph and trolley pole operation. I would imagine that at least one museum operation does this. Certainly it has got to be simpler than having dual-guage track! (That's very messy!)."
I believe that both Western Ry Museum and Orange Empire both run pans and poles on the same system. However, in Cleveland, the CTS Rapid (Pans) shared track and wire with the Shaker Rapid (PCC's and poles)on the line east of the Terminal Tower to East 55th Street. This existed from 1955 to the 1980's, when the RTA replaced the PCC's with new LRV's - using pans.
In regards to dual-guage track, see Orange Empire: L.A. Streetcars and Pacific Electric Interurbans share the same R/OW - Just like once upon a time in L.A
9/7/99
I was just reading the NY Division ERA Sept. bulletin tonight when I read on page #7 a list of all stations with MVM's and when they entered service. At the bottom starting on 8?26/99 was all 5 station on the #5 Dyre Ave line except E.180th St. Now this line has an interesting history of closing down token booths after hours and collecting fares on board the train. The old days they used a bus farebox attached to a pole! NOW,along comes Metrocard. With the new high wheel turnstiles now Metrocard compliant,on board fare collection is now defunct. But wait a minute! All these stations have one MVM each and with the token booth now closed down and riders now buying single ride Netrocards,etc. , won't this be an invitation for vandalism ? I can imagine those monitor glasses being scratched ot smashed with a sledgehammer. Are these areas being monitored by CCTV ?
I haven't been on this line in over a year so maybe somebody knows something ?
Bill Newkirk
Since I run the MVM website Can you send me the data in the article?
I am sad to report that the glass screen on the new MVM at the Pelham Parkway station (Dyre line) is already scratched. Also, space is very tight here. One person standing at the machine blocks 2 of the 4 doors to the station. 2 people each at the MVM and token booth would totally block easy access to the station. I won't even mention the 2 pay phone also squeezed in.
The lack of space is the reason MVMs will NOT be at all stations. The J line stations from Alabama Ave to the S Curve all have a narrow island platform and a mezzanine at platform level with only TWO turnstiles at most and three at some- and the wheels plus access gate take up the entire width of the mezzanine. The booth is along the Geographic North weall running geographic East and West and it is a small booth! that barely fits! I doubt we'll see MVMs on that section.
To our critics: we are not going away! ATMs did not replace human tellers at the bank- the human lines are still as long as they were before ATMS. Not all customers use MetroCards- many senior citizens still buy 20-50 tokens at one time. I can not print the comments some have made when they tried a MetroCard ( Dave would censor the message [rightfully!]as obscene or inappropriate.)
Oh yes- the MVMs do have an alarm in them if someone tries to break in. I have heard the alarm, going off at training school when the instructor opened the machine and did not do something in sequence.(I do not know what so please do not ask)
**disclaimer: opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or NYCT.
[Not all customers use MetroCards many senior citizens still buy 20-50 tokens at one time.]
At this Depot many of them still get a free ride when they buy a subway ride, i.e. I get a lot of "tickets" (the long white piece of paper). I also still get "blocks", the long pink ones ... still don't understand why the TA has switched to some kind of single ride ticket when the subway goes down & folks have to take a bus ... hum there is a "Single Ride Ticket" that comes out of the MVM, why don't they use it for a block ???? Good for one ride, has to be used in 2 hours, hum
Mr t__:^)
Block tickets are to be issued when there is an UNPLANNED disruption of train service at your location in BOTH directions. The pink stripe ticket is for Senior Citizens showing a medicare card, Reduced fare MetroCard, NY STate office of aging ID when they pay a full fare for a free return trip. The green stripe is for customers with a disability-here again we need medicare card or Reduced Fare MetroCard as ID. A G.O.ticket looks like a traditional bus transfer-colors change every three months-One color used by subway and another by bus. They are issued for PLANNED disruptions ie: no 6 train from Hunts Point to Parkchester.
Block tickets have to be called in to the field office when open and a supervisor has to come to the booth and reseal the tickets. They asre good for the day of the disruption and two subsequent days only. If issued on 9/1 then they are good for 9/1,9/2, and 9/3 at any bus line or subway station. The disabled/senior citizen are good for three months plus the day of issue . The tickets are good on NYCT, MaBSTOA and the private lines such as Queens Surface.
If there is a dispute the customer should pay the fare and report the facts to Jay Street.
I hope this clears up the issue!
Hey Jeff i see the MVM at Pelham Parkway station but what is wrong which those idiot scratched the MVM. I don't understand why they putting MVM on Station? Because i don't trust MVM & MTA is trying to get rid of Station Agents for saving $$$$$$ & could be more troblem in the future.
Peace Out
Meaney
By the way People who work at MTA Headquarter are freaking greedy for $$$$$$$$$.
Peace Out
Meaney
I've said this before. MVMs are not to eliminate station agents, they are to augment them. Perhaps in the future we'll have a D.C. Metro style operation at many stations (those that will have MVMs).
Eugenius is right- we will not go away. AT MVM training they told us that our job will change but we WILL continue to sell tokens and cards. SOme of us may be out of the booth rendering assistance, inspecting stations,etc but the MAIN station agent will still be in the booth.
Look at ATMs--banks still have human tellers and the humans have lines!we will not go away--stop dreaming! we'll be here-even in your nightmares:-)
9/9/99
Just so there is no misunderstanding on my original post,the PAST practice on Dyre was close token booths after hours and collect fares on board trains. Now with MVM's I was curious if this practice would change. It seems by the response on SubTalk,it will !
Bill Newkirk
Dyre is a special case. That wont change. What will change is our duties at stations where a booth *is* open 24 hours.
weren't MVM's just to be installed in HIGH volume stations?
Like it works anyway. When I was at Grand Central shortly after north access opened there, I was at the main mezzanine where there are 6 MVMs in addition to one full serve booth and one "mini serve" ($6/15 cards only). There was a HUGE line at the booth. That, in itself is not only not surprising, but expected. But, HARDLY A SINGLE MVM was being utilized! There were only 1-2 people using them at once. I can't understand how people are so fearful of the new technology that they would waste time waiting in line to buy stuff from the agent. What kind of incentive are we going to offer to MVM users? Before the transfers, nary a single person would use the machine. Then it exploded to almost half and I'm sure that anybody who rides around more than once in a while switched to the card when the free rides came along. I always thought they should have had Metrocard only turnstiles back in 1994 like the E-Z Pass only lanes if they wanted to get more customers on it right away.
It was the same way with the TVMs (Token Vending Machines). They'd stand there with nobody using them, while the token booth line was 15 people long.
David
[Like it works anyway. When I was at Grand Central shortly after north access opened there, I was at the main mezzanine where there are 6 MVMs in addition to one full serve booth and one "mini serve" ($6/15 cards only). There was a HUGE line at the booth. That, in itself is not only not surprising, but expected. But, HARDLY A SINGLE MVM was being utilized! There were only 1-2 people using them at once. I can't understand how people are so fearful of the new technology that they would waste time waiting in line to buy stuff from the agent.]
now will someone explain the logic of a MVM on the Dyre stations at night with the current turnstile arrangement. is anyone paying their fare or even using the MVMs during the hours that an Sta Agent or police officer is not present? will High Entry/Exit turnstiles be installed to reduce fare evasion? will agent operated gates be controlled remotely to allow riders with carriages or other parcels entry/exit from the system.
another question if there is a block in service while an agent is not on duty how do these riders get reimbursed(block ticket) will MVMs dispense something?
9/10/99
GOOD POINTS !!
Bill Newkirk
There are no "high wheel" turnstiles at any of the Dyre Ave. line stations. Just regular Metrocard turnstiles. Yes, they close the token booths at night and the MVMs are there as a substitute. On-board fare collection ended several years ago, a month or two before "Metrocard Gold" was introduced. For the last couple of years there were token machines in these stations, they have now been replaced with the MVMs. I don't think there are any closed circuit cameras - if there are, they are well hidden. The stations are patrolled by police who come and go throughout the night. I believe either one or two squad cars are assigned to cover the 5 stations.
personally I can't wait till those machines get busted up by people thinking they'll hit a jack pot... hell they're already being vandalized with scratchitti hey wait till someone throws a chain around one and ties the other to a truck and yanks the damn thing from the floor! of course this'll be done before closed circuit cameras get installed..
ahh yess the stupidity of it all...
What's so "stupid" about having fare vending machines that you "can't wait till those machines get busted up,"? Chicago put them in, and now the station agents can (indeed have to) get out of their booths and assist the passengers, which makes me feel a little more comfortable waiting for my train (not that I was ever UNcomfortable). "Customer assistant" is their new title, but it is also an apt description of their new job. And millions of dollars that were lost to errors and downright embezzlement (by a handful of station agents) is now being accurately accounted for by the Transit Card machines.
Other than the fact that they are "newfangled" and "inauthentic" because they didn't exist when the system opened during the Teddy Roosevelt presidency or when someone first rode the subway when they were ten years old, what is the visceral hatred SOME (by no means all) people on this board have for Metrocard Vending Machines?!? Tokens and turnstiles didn't exist when the system opened in 1904 either. Time marches on, and all of that.
I am a Station Agent. Many of the people who buy tokens are senior citizens, immigrants, the technophobes, people with disabilities.
The token was introduced when the fare went to 15 cents. The IRT went to turnstiles because it was being cheated by IRT employees!
I see a problem if the token disappears: with tokens, if all turnstiles are out of order we use a black box near the turnstiles or even hand collect(with a cop nearby!) What can be done with MetroCard--we have no battery operated readers! No Laptops! we'd have to let them ride free or close down and then we'd need tons of cops to keep them from jumping anyway!
There is no excuse for people not to use Metrocards, except for infrequent riding old and crippled (gasp! I hope the PC police don't get wind of this!) patrons who could not be bother to go through all the crap of ordering a reduced fare MC (if they don't need one, they shouldn't). There is nothing more difficult to the immigrant or the technophobe to sliding a card as opposed to dropping a token. The machines could be a different story and perhaps I can't relate because I have no idea what it's like not to understand pressing buttons that have stuff written on them telling you what to do... In four languages! Tokens can be used for single rides, unlike those idiotic cards that bear that name, they don't expire in two hours. I also use the token periodically because I can't be expected to adequately produce $1.50 in change until the U.S. Mint gets it's act together and lowers production of the $1 bill in favor of the new Sacagawea coin. I use this for the express bus where I get a discount for my student card, which stupidly, does not hold money for that very purpose. What about the half-fare students and their suffering to always pay $.75 in coins for the bus? Since I've gotten into card refill reform, there is no reason that unlimited ride cards can't be renewed, or placed on a pay per ride card, or become a pay per ride card on expiration, or even hold two sets of unlimited rides.
As for the lack or MC reading capability, what would you do nowadays? Personally, I would REFUSE to be forced to pay an additional $1.50 and use a token. Do it like on the bus, free rides. If the fare collection fails, that's not the riders' fault.
now ? we ask for the tokens!
Oh the first MVM has been attackesd--Bowling Green IRT-- a guy with a crowbar tried to break in. I do not know what shape the machine is in at this time
Also there is a reliabilty problem--the technophobes and techno-challenged bend the cards and wonder why they dont work! I have watched many people bend the card and scream at me when the thing does not work and it is too bent for me to even attempt to dip the card in my computer! WHen I tell them send it to Jay Street I get unrepeatables! or they start kicking the booth or body slamming the booth (the booth does not get harmed!) until they tire and leave- again cussing up a storm!
Also the Straphanger's campaign refused to let the token die!
I don't trust MVM beacause what happen if i don't get my metrocard back?? or MVM take my money & i get nothing on my metrocard. It could be more problem if MTA buy more MVMs & more complaint about the MVMs.
Peace Out
Meaney
Really STOOPID(purposefully mispelled) shouldn't use metrocard nor the vending machines AND then they have the nerve to have a titty attack on the Agent at the booth its beyond comprehension(check the spelling pleeze)
A crowbar, huh? He at least could have used a BOWLING ball in his misguided attempt to get his hands on some GREEN!
LEAVE THE JOKES TO THE PROFESSIONALS PLEASE !!
Bill Newkirked
Now what if somebody was transferring to or from a bus? I can't wait for the old Tokenosaurus to become extinct, how does the Straphangers (another item I hope becomes extinct) Cam-pain intend to implement their kooky system of differnt fares for different lines with the Tokenosaurus?
Now, when will the MTA have Smart Cards (is it a proper or common noun?)? Will it be called MetroCard Platinum or something?
9/12/99
MVM Express,
On the MVM machine,located above the money slots there appears to be a chrome convex disc. Is this camera behind a two way mirror to thwart vandals and customers being robbed,similar to ATM machines ??
Bill Newkirk
Maybe it's a cover for a smart card reader port. Since the MVMs must be very expensive, maybe they're preparing for some equipment upgrade. The MC Platinum (that's what I call the smart cards they'll have) ports on the turnstiles can go where the token slot is.
The MetroCards in the machines are ZERO VALUE until actually issued. I haver seen NJT's TVMs open (from a distance) (with two armed transit police officers standing guard!)- The money vault is in a locked vault inside the locked machine and what NJT (and PATH) does is pull out the vault and replace it with another vault.
Even *assuming* the culprit actually got the machine open, he'd still be faced with the alarm going off, the computer screen in the booth would alert the station agent. and find the locked vault!
The bottom of the computer screen in the booth gives the station agents messages such as "Turnstile 001 door open), Token Jam, Shutter Jam, etc. The computer also gives a loud beep at the same time.
I have worked one station with MVMs -59th IND and the computer was constantly beeping messages and the techinician was woking ont he machien the entire shift! Unless the machines has improved, I still think they wont work-- too cumbersome. Remember the first generation of ATMs- they gave out packages of money--two tens and a five! you could get up to four packages- and the rotating message window an oh yes- no ATM networks- your financial institution ONLY! (or another instituion paying the first to use their machines)
The "SmartCard" is alive and well in Washington DC & Chicago.
BTW, it's the same company that make our turnstile/farebox.
Mr t__:^)
Oh, what's going to happen if you're out side the booth when this guy/gail starts ....
I'm not sure how the crime is in Chicago subways but here in New York City its a totally different matter don't trust what the news tells yoou about how low the crime has gotten on the surface or underground.
When the TA announced the WillyB reconstruction project last spring, one thing I remembered them saying was "higher speeds will be possible." I say: NOT!! I have seen in writing at Jamaica Center J line dispatchers office in a notice to the train operators that wheel detection equipment has been installed on the bridge tracks with a twist: if a train is going faster than the posted speed, the train will not trip, but an alarm will sound in Essex St. tower. It is the job of the dispatcher (or tower operator in his absence) to notify Control Center that a train is "speeding". Quite frankly, it is all redundant. Upgrade you need all the power you can muster to climb the grade and downgrade you have the grade timers to restrict the speed. I am trying to understand the thinking behind this, but I can't. Overkill? If it says 15 MPH, then the train operator will go 10 in order to protect himself if the timing mechanism is calibrated wrong. If there is a malfunction, surely the train operator will be guilty of speeding till proven innocent by an electrical malfunction/investigation. But then again, I'm just an hourly employee..........
I will be taking our great subway system from the Port Authority bus terminal at 42nd St. to 70 Pine St., Manhattan in a few days, after the rush hour in mid morning. I wonder if anyone can suggest the fastest way to get there. Your assistance shall be much appreciated..
Downtown A train to Broadway-Nassau, transfer to J train to Broad Street.
Thanks to Wayne and Brian on your directions to 70 Pine St. from the Port Authority bus terminal....It's interesting that you both suggest taking the A to Broadway-Nassau, but one recommends the J to Broad St. while the other the #2 or #3 to Wall St. That's what I love about New Yorkers... you could have two expert opinions and BOTH can be correct...
thanks again...JK
Take the Downtown "A" train from 42nd Street-8th Avenue station to Broadway-Nassau Street station. Get off there and transfer to the #2 or #3 train, following the red signs. It's a little bit of a walk through the passageway. Then take the first Brooklyn-bound train ONE STOP to Wall Street. Pine Street is one block north of Wall. #70 Pine is down towards the East River, near Water Street, about a block and a half or two blocks at most.
Wayne
While riding the B1 bus, I passed PS 248 (Training center) I was shocked to see the ENTIRE front of an R68 sitting on a flatbed truck! It was real. Not a mock up. It was complete. (Even signed up for JFK express) I guess it was a training simulator? I wonder where it's going? From what I saw (It was dark) It looked like it was about ten feet long (Up to first door set). Right next to it was the entire front of a R-62. It was also complete and signed up #7. Does anyone know the story behind them?
Hold on a minute. Did our friends at Coney Island dispose of R16 #6452? If they haven't, I wonder what will ultimately happen to it?
A strange car indeed. How many other R16s do you know were painted in Redbird Red?
The R62 and 68 ends that you saw had to be just that - mockups. I say that because I don't know of any R62 or 68 that was retired and put on the chopping block for the purpose of "mock up" operation at the school. Very interesting. I wonder if they're small enough to be put in the school???
-Stef
I found out more info:
They were built by Kawasaki as simulators. They are To scale. They are Real. If an R-68 had a wreck, They probably could use that front as a replacement. They were in the school. Now they are "Moving"? them. Does anybody know where they are going?
[ I found out more info:
They were built by Kawasaki as simulators. They are To scale. They are
Real. If an R-68 had a wreck, They probably could use that front as a
replacement. They were in the school. Now they are "Moving"? them.
Does anybody know where they are going? ]
They may be going to Livingston St. to join the other two simulators. Last time I was there, they told me they were getting more, and the improvements planned in the next generation. The ones I saw a couple of months ago were cute, but had some glaring faults. (I.e. they were based on laserdisc, and signal aspects always changed at the same point. This made timers ineffective, because regardless of what speed you went, they cleared in front of you.
Where At Livingston Street?
At the T/A headquarters. They're on the first floor -- just to the right of the main entrance, is another entrance directly to the Training center. My company is doing some business with the training dept -- with that contact, I got to play with their simulators. I even invited a fellow Sub-Talker at the time.
I dunno when/if they're going to use it for actual training, though.
more than likely for training and for evaluating operation. However one important aspect i feel is missing in the simulators MOTION in some form or another. operating a train isn't just by sight you have to feel how the train is reacting to your actions..
Some R-16s were painted red in the late 60s before the silver-and-blue scheme took over. I know this wasn't the Redbird red shade, but that's as close as they got.
Are there Two RTS buses #3222 & #3248 at PS 24 MTA Training????
Peace Out
Meaney
Exactly!!!! Long live the Redbirds!!!!
-Stef
I'll drink to that!
Will a superliner fit into penn station or would it become a convertable by the time it got there? also what about domes will they fit into penn station?
They will not fit into Penn Station.
Superliners are not used on the Northeast Corridor mainly because the cars won't clear the catanary wires. Even if the catanery system wasn't there, the Superliners probably still won't clear 30th St. Station (Philadelphia), Penn Station, or the Hudson/East River tunnels.
Also, you also have to consider the tunnels near Baltimore Penn Station. That is also one of the reasons why Superliners are not seen between New York and Washington, D.C.
Chaohwa
The Superliners won't fit because they are too high for the tunnels on the NEC. The ceiling will be too low.
Could they/are they used as far east as Washington?
Actually, I've heard they *will* fit into penn, but it's an awfully tight squeeze!!! From what I've heard, they've *tested* them into penn, but they don't run into penn, but it's realy close to the catenary. I believe they do run into Washington, because the lines in that station are higher.
What's the height of a superliner anyway? And what's the max height Amtrak's pantographs can reach?
They have not been tested into Penn - they will not clear the Hudson River tunnels (the top corners would touch the curved sides), nor is the catenary high enough on the NEC. I also understand that there would be a clearance problem in Baltimore.
They couldn't run into Washington until recently, when the tunnels exiting the station to the south were deepened to accomodate them.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, they run to Union Station in DC regularly.
In fact, didnt Amtrak try to run thru Superliner coaches on the Capitol Limited/Southwest Chief??
Amtrak does run Superliners on Capitol Limited and Cardinal, where they both start from Washington, D.C.
My question was wether they tried to run 'thru' sevice to LA on the Capitol, like I said I SEEM to remember it from someplace....(or maybe I was just thinking of when both the Pennsy and NYC tried doing similar nonsense, and found out allit did was screw them up even more!!)
1 Yes the Capitol Ltd & Cardinal are both Superliner equipped.
2. Yes the tunnels from Union Station south to access the bridge to Virginia had to be modified
3. There was a published picture in Railpace of an ATK special under wires east of Harrisburg bound for 30th St. Phila.
Regarding superliners under wires -
They sit under wires at Union station in DC, in addition to the trip they took into Phila. from Harrisburg. But the wires on the platforms they use in DC (the low level ones on the east side of the station) and on the Main Line are high level wires. Generally, the wires in the big stations like 30th St and Penn are low level. I do not think the superliners can fit under the low level caternary.
When the superliner train came to Phila, it platformed on track 0 (or maybe it was track 1), which, in addition to having a low platform, I think has no wires. But I am not sure...
I doubt there are any high level wires in Penn Station.
Does there exist anywhere a definitive list of all the different stickers and markings used on the sides of cars in the fleet?
Lennox trains have a Blue bar, with a orange diamond, and a green dot. I suppose the blue bar is just for Lennox Shop, but what's the orange diamond and green dot about?
On the B division, R68's have a dot to identify the transverse cab end of the cars.
Is there already a list somewhere to help decipher all these markings (dots, diamonds, stripes, etc) throughout the system? If not, can we make one?
I think those markings have something to do with routine maintenance information.
For instance, a green marking probably means the car checked out of the yard "okay". Yellow, means the car may need some kind of work within some pre-determined time frame; red markings would mean the car needs servicing sooner than other cars (just guessing here).
Doug aka BMTman
Right. I think that they have different meanings for different divisions, (or even different shops). I think it would be nice for us to have a comprehensive list, though. I'm not sure if anyone here has a comprehensive list, though, but together, we may have the info.
I don't know what all the different shaped and colored markings mean, but when I see the sign of the Pentagram on a car, it's a warning that you're likely to find werewolves in the car when there is a full moon.
The last cars to wear the mark of the Pentagram were R-7 #1415, R-6-1s #1233, #1277 and #1300, R-6-3 #937, Slant R40s #4418-4419 and #4328-4329, R44s #126, 147, 203 and 188, (#5410, #5311, #5357 and #5350 respectively) and R16s #6409 and #6428. This according to my Queens IND Graffitti Master list, a list I kept for a time from 1973 to 1975. This mark was never seen outside of the Queens IND.
#1415 was pretty impressive - had a wizard (complete with beard, moon & stars hat & cloak, wand etc.) and an erupting volcano. Covered almost the entire side.
Wayne
Yeah, I think that one was featured in that book on Subway Graffiti Art.
Doug aka BMTman
Peter Doughertys Book "Tracks Of The New York City Subway" In The Yard Maps Section Each Yard Description Mentions A Color Band Under Each Number Plate. Each Color Band Represents The Yard Or Yards That A Car Is Stored Or Repaired. Some Colorbands Represent Yards At Both Ends Of A Route; Example #3 Line IRT 148th Yard Manhattan & IRT Livonia Yard In The City Of Brooklyn.
September 8th, 1999
The IRT Redbirds are approaching the end of their careers. Will
the NYCTA keep a few cars for Nostalgia trains tours? Will they add a
few to the Museum collection after 2001? They have kept a few R-10s
from 1989, when they were serving out their last days on the A and C
lines. I saw a few R-30s in the Coney Island a few weeks ago, when I
took the F to Coney Island in Brooklyn. Will they make all these cars
into Nostalgia trains in the future?
James S. Li
I wouldn't be too surprised if a few redbirds were saved. Yes there are a few R30s, but not everyone of them is preserved for the Museum. Those cars are there for work service. There are no R10s left with the exception of two (3184 and 3189). 3184 is at Coney Island, while 3189 is being used as a school car for crews at Pitkin Yard.
-Stef
I would suspect that as the Redbirds are retired that
- the Electric Railroaders Association will have a "Farewell to the Redbirds" series of fantrips.
- some will go to work service displacing older equipment already in work service
- a select few will be retained as museum cars
- others will be offered to museums, but it would be up to the museums to handle the shipping and handling, and since this is very costly, many will not be picked up
- railfans like us will try to get pictures of them in the scrap line and artifacts in which to preserve their memory.
--Mark
September 8th, 1999
In the early 1960s,when the R-27s and R-30s arrived to the
BMT and introduced the letter routes, which lines received the new
cars first? Did any of the Eastern Lines receive the R-27s and R-30s
in the early 1960s? I looked at the roll signs, and found out that
there were markers for the Jamaica (J,JJ), Broadway-Brooklyn (KK),
14th Street-Canarsie (L,LL) and Myrtle Avenue (M) Lines.
In 1967, when the Chrystie Street Connection opened, what were
the markers for the roll signs on the IND and BMT cars? I heard some
of the 1967-1968 lines were unlisted like NX, RJ ,etc. Does anyone
have a lost of the roll signs for IND and BMT trains AFTER 1967?
James Li
The initial line to get R27s was the Brighton Local (QT and QB). Then the Fourth Avenue Local (RR).
As more were delivered, R27s began to be used on lare nights on most BMT Southern Division lines.
In the early days, none were used on the Eastern Division, which used R16s on 15-Jamaica and occasionally on the other lines. Standards were used most every where else on the Eastern lines, including some moved from the Southern Division to replace the Multis on the 10-Myrtle-Chambers.
Paul, I thought the Eastern Division got them first. I always associated the R-27/30 with the J Line. Might be due to the fact that when I became a traction fan I was a teenager in the early 70's. At that time, there was almost nothing but R-27/30s on almost all the BMT Divisions (before we got the R-44 cars, of course).
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I'm talking from 1960 when the R-27s first started coming in and they did go to the Southern Division. At that time I covered the system fairly closely.
Similarly, the R32s were BMT Southern Division, initially displacing the Triplexes on the Brighton Express (Q).
The R-16s and BMT Standards ruled the Eastern Division through most of the '60s.
I was drafted just before Chrystie Street. I think my Uncle Sam thought I'd be happier someplace other than NYC to watch my beloved BMT being snipped to pieces. You know, you've heard stories of people join the Foreign Legion "to forget." Well, the foreign legion joined me, so to speak ;-)
So from September 1967 I never again followed the system with quite the detail as I had earlier. I suspect it was after than that R27s began to show up in other areas (than the Southern Division) big time.
Paul: I got the shock of my life when I traveled to New York for the first time in 20 years back in 1974. When I waited for the Sea Beach at 42nd Street it took four or five trains whizzing by me to understand that 1. The triplexes were a thing of the past, and 2. my beloved Sea Beach was now the N train instead of the 4 train. Boy did that bug me. It still does. 4 was my favorite number when I was a kid. Duke Snider wore that for Brooklyn and the Sea Beach wore that as a train. And I wore that number all over my clothes. You can bet what changes I would make if I had the power to do something about it, don't you?
Prior to Chrystie St the only time you would see an R-27 on the Eastern Division was one or two M-Nassau St Express (Brighton) or TT West End Local laying up midday at East New York Yard. They deadheaded between there and Chambers Street.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s were intially assigned to the Southern Division and stayed there until the Chrystie St. connection opened. After that, some R-27/30s went to the Eastern Division; others went to the IND. The R-32s invaded IND territory for the first time, but still served the Southern Division on the B and D lines.
As for signage, the R-27s and R-30s originally kept the old Southern Division titles as well as the new "Broadway" designations in conjunction with their new letter markings. I can vaguely remember seeing "RR-Broadway/4th Ave. Local" and "QB-B'way-Brighton Local via Bridge" side signs in 1967. After the Chrystie St. connection opened, these cars received new curtains which had only a "Broadway" subscript on Southern Division routes. The only Eastern Division markings I ever saw were J/Nassau St; JJ/Nassau St.; and QJ with no subscript. The RJ and NX signs also had no subscript.
The R-32s featured signs with "Broadway" as the only subscript except the TT, which had "West End". IND signs kept the same 8th Ave. and 6th Ave. subscripts as did the R-1/9s and R-10s. Interestingly enough, the R-32s and R-38s were delivered with BB signs, but no B signs. B signs were pasted over the BB markings on R-32s; I'm not sure if this was done on the R-38s. One difference I noticed was the bulkhead D sign on the R-32s featured a rounded D, compared to the angular, squared-off D on the R-1/9s. Of course, with the opening of the Chrystie St. connection, each route was color-coded, and beginning with the R-40s, the route signs reflected this. In an modest attempt to standardize markings in conjunction with this new color code, multicolored route roller curtains were installed in the front destination slot on the R-16s, R-32s, and R-38s. The R-16s also received multicolored side route curtains. For some reason, the R-27s and R-30s were skipped over, although a few of them apparently did receive these new curtains.
R-1/9s which remained on the IND kept their old roller curtains until they were retired. Those which wound up on the Eastern Division received new bulkhead route curtains with just the letter markings (KK, LL, M, QJ) and no subscripts. Front destination signs were not used; very often the original IND curtain was simply cranked all the way to the end of the roll leaving the dirty white canvas showing. Side sign boxes were fitted with new Eastern Division route and destination curtains. I have a side route curtain which includes the MM marking; perhaps the bulkhead curtains also had it.
Yes the bulkhead signs on at least some of the Eastern Div. R-7, R-7A and R-9 did carry the "MM" - saw an "M" shuttle with this on one end once (December 27, 1969, in the snow - I fiddled with the side signs and soon they all said "MM").
Wayne
You really liked to play with those signs, didn't you? I did it once, on a BMT standard, but my mother almost had a heart attack over it.
I know that the "Nassau St. Loop" pre-1967 referred to trains operating to Manhattan through the Montague St. tunnel and back to Brooklyn on the Manhattan Bridge (or vice versa) - from the Southern Division back to the Southern Division.
Question: Did any trains then do what the present rush-hour M train does and the 1967 QJ train did - operate through the tunnel, up Nassau St. and over the Williamsburgh Bridge, joining the Eastern and Southern Divisions together? If not, what were the usual terminals along the Nassau St. line for trains coming from the tunnel and from the Williamsburgh Bridge?
Prior to Chrystie Street this is a simplied routing of services operating on Nassau St:
Eastern Division via Willy B
#10 Myrtle-Chambers Metropolitan-Chambers St Rush Hours
#14 Broadway-Brooklyn Local 168,111,Crescent,Rockaway Pkwy,Atlantic, Eastern Pkwy - Canal St Rush hours
#15 Jamaica Local/Express 168 Street-Broad St All Times,Exp in Bkyln rush hours in direction of traffic.
Southern Division
#1 Brighton-Nassau (or M-Nassau St Express) am rush lv Brighton Beach via tunnel to Chambers (exp Kings Hwy to Prospect Pk) deadhead via Manny B south side to Dekalb then as Brighton Exp to Brighton Beach.
pm rush deadhead from Brighton Bch via Manny B south side to Chambers then to Coney Island via tunnel (exp Prospect Pk to Kings Hwy)
#2 4 Avenue -Nassau via tunnel(might have carried RR signs as these where early am put ins from layup. Chambers-95 St via tunnel
#2 4 Avenue-Nassau Loop service via bridge and tunnel
am rush lv 95 St to Broad via Manny B south side (exp 59 to Pacific and bypass Dekalb)then continue with passengers to 9 Av via West End Local. Carried M-Nassau St Exp signs to Manhattan and TT West End Local signs back to Brooklyn.
pm rush lv 9 Av via West End Local (TT) to Broad via tunnel then continue to Dekalb via Manny B south side then all local stops to 95 St. Carried TT signs to Court St then changed to S-Special although front sign carried M-Nassau St.
#3 West End - Nassau (TT West End Local) Chambers-Bay Parkway(Coney Island midday,rush put-ins/pull outs to 9 Avenue M-F 6a-6p. Reversed north of Chambers.
One or two of the Brighton-Nassau Expresses laid up at East New York Yard midday deadheading between there and Chambers St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Those were the good old days!!!
Around 1962 or 1963, one of the evening rush Brighton-Nassau specials ran an 8 car train of R27s, and was signed "Q-Broadway-Brighton Exp", with terminals "Chambers St" and "Coney Island". I'm not sure where this one layed up during the day, and never saw R27s on the run in the AM, just standards at that time. All of the other runs were 6-car trains of standards.
-- Ed Sachs
Dan: I had to dig real deep for this one but to further answer your question there was a very limited amount of through service from the Eastern Division to the Southern Division prior to Chrystie Street. From at least 1949 to November 1954 two morning rush #10 Myrtle-Chambers Expresses upon arriving at Chambers St were converted to #3 West End Locals and continued on to 62 Street with passengers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry...Were they running Multis on the Myrtle-Chambers at that time (1949-54)?
Carl M.
#10 Myrtle-Chambers used AB's until 6/20/55 when a train of R-16s went into service and by Nov almost all service was by R-16's. The B types came back in Sep 1956 when 50 R-16's were sent to the IND. Starting on Nov 15,1956 after the Fulton Street El closed the Multis were used here up until Sept 5.1961. Then the AB's came back with the occassional R-16.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, I seem to recall that the Eastern Division got a load of 'em. The Jamaica Line (JJ) and later (?) the Brighton Line received a host of them (probably to retire the Standards which were the mainstay of the Brighton for many years).
Doug aka BMTman
how many people passed the test given july 17,1999?
how many provisionals passed out of how many?
I have heard that 85% of the provisionals failed the exam and I have also heard of several conductors that are still on probation were called for their motors physical.
What??? Where did you hear this??
All of the provisionals I know (60 some odd of the 142 that I am aware of) and I am one of them passed, some not as well as others, but they passed. Several who took the test have since gone back to their former titles.
The test was not as half as hard as the last one, and if any provisionals failed it was because the just didn't read the bulletins.
Later,
Chris
several people have been called for train op but only 60% are showing for thier exams. I'm still trying to find out the total number on the list
I took my physical on Thur. and was able to enter Mon. class but turned it down because I have 3 months left on my probation and would be considered a new hire if I went. Hopefully I will be called after the first of the year.
Who told you that. You would be hired as a provisional instead until your list number became certified.
Ms. Evans at the crew office stated that since I didn't have a year in title I would have no position to go back to.
Have your name reinstated to the #9501 list immediately so you can get put back on the list so you can get called later..
I sent my G-2 in Fri. night.
I don't see how anyone could've failed that test
Youre right test was easy and 98% of information covered on test was made available. may should have passed if they studied. BIG IF!!!
I called the Union in order to get an answer to your question and according to them......Out of the 2600 some odd people who applied for the test, only 800, or so, passed. (That is a quote.) Specifically referring to the number of provisionals who passed, they don't have a definite number as of yet.
I personally would be very surprised if the failure rate were to be high.
I understand the statistics for provisionals are rather low. The reason why is only mine as a union steward and NOT that of the union's One factor is that now the employee can be judged before their list number is certified. In other words, they can be judged as a T/O before they even take the exam, therefore the TA can get rid of the T/O using section 61 (one in three) of the civil service code because they weren't hired permanantly to begin with. Thus the incident where 97 provisional TSSs were demoted to T/O (Even though that exceeded the one in three rule, only three bothered to fight (the ones who are now Superintendants.
Saw police cars blocking one of the entrances to the #6 station yesterday evening (about 5:30PM). Anyone know what was going on?
Nick
The City was spraying Pelham Bay Park and the Orchard Beach area with pesticide. Gotta get those mosquitos before they get us.
I guess along with those ever loving metrocards MTA should be selling OFF insect repellant too! Ouch...
Remember the Shell No-Pest Strip Insecticide?
I saw the Jerome and White Plains (2/5) el yesterday while on the Cross Bronx...
My guesses are --
#4 -- Mt Eden Avenue
#2/5 -- E Tremont Avenue station (?)
Nick
Right you are. The north end of the Mt. Eden Ave. station extends over the Cross Bronx. The East Tremont Ave. station is a couple of blocks north of the Cross Bronx and doesn't actually extend over it, but it is certainly the closest station on the 2/5 line.
Also, the 177th/Parkchester station of the '6' is flush over the Cross Bronx, or rather Hugh Grant Circle, which the Expressway tunnels under. Most weekdays, you can see trains laying up on either local (outside) track while stuck in traffic.
The Belt is also good for trainspotting, as it passes under the 'F', 'D/Q' and 'A'. With typical weekend traffic, you're sure to see something.
I alway see a Q racing towards or out of BB when passing on the Belt. Love the shot of the CI complex as well......
3TM
72St. Transfer available to the 1 and 9 across the platform making local stops to 79 and 86. On the upper level, M5, M7, M11, M57, M72, and the M104. 96St-Bway will be the next express stop. Step in and stand clearrrrr............
Right. I wonder, in a few years, will people seriously think that Hugh Grant Circle is named for the actor? Probably.
Don't forget the trainyard in Coney Island!!!! The Belt goes right over it.
Don't forget the Mt Eden station on the #4 line running up Jerome Aveune goes right over the Cross Bronx Expressway.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd
It's also worth mentioning that when you dive under the Concourse when you're stuck in typical X-Bx traffic, you are going under the B/D Station at 174/175th Sts. This station is probably the most unique station on the entire subway system - with stairways up to the Concourse and down to Walton Ave. and 175th St. It's the answer to the trivia question - "Name the NYC subway station where the customer walks upstairs into an underground platform?" I must confess that I know this because my wife spent her childhood at Walton and 174th St., right next door.
As I recall, several of the stations along the Concourse line had entries from below. This is because the Concourse runs on a high ridge, and many of the crosstown streets tunnel beneath it; the subway is actually above these tunnels. 167th and 170th Streets come to mind. There were stairways up from the tunnels to the stations, mainly to serve passengers transferring from crosstown bus/trolley lines. I even recall separate trolley (later bus) islands in the middle of the 167th St. tunnel.
Are any of these entrances still open?
I also remember the 167th St. Cafeteria, between the Concourse and Jerome Ave. Ate there numerous times in the 50's and 60's.
-- Ed Sachs
All stations from 167 to Bedford Park have a South exit to the Concourse underpass. In addition Kingsbridge has an entire lower mezzanine from which you exit up to the concourse or straight out to the underpass. There are also two closed ramps which come up on the South side of the udnerpass- these are long closed.
How 'bout the Jerome Cafeteria opp. Yankee Stadium? Ate breakfast there many times when I was a vendor during my teens. Once met Bobby Murcer sitting alone eating breakfast!!!
Also, how about Dubrow's at the Kings Hway Brighton Station. Too bad all the cafeterias closed. Much healthier than heart attack causing fast food places. At least you got real vegetables. Now kids think french fries is a vegetable!!
Dubrows ... yes, I remember it well!
--Mark
Never ate at the Jerome Cafeteria.
Ate at Dubrow's. Also, on the Brighton line, do you remember Cookie's (at Ave. U and Ave. M)?
-- Ed Sachs
Yes I do.
I also remember Cookie's in Hempstead, same owner as the one in Bklyn.
How 'bout the Jerome Cafeteria opp. Yankee Stadium? Ate breakfast there many times when I was a vendor during my teens. Once met Bobby Murcer sitting alone eating breakfast!!!
Also, how about Dubrow's at the Kings Hway Brighton Station. Too bad all the cafeterias (and automats) closed. Much healthier than heart attack causing fast food places. At least you got real vegetables. Now kids think french fries is a vegetable!!
Did you get Bobby's autograph?
Nope, never was into autographs!!
Three more spots for train-spotting when you're driving:
In Astoria, the N train crosses the Grand Central Parkway at the Triboro Bridge entrance;
In Woodside, the #7 passes over the BQ Expway near 69th-Fisk Ave. Station
In the East Bronx, the #6 crosses the Hutchinson River Parkway about a mile north of the Bruckner Interchange.
The BQE rubs shoulders with the 'F' and 'G' on the Smith-9th viaduct. There's no crossing, but you can easily see trains from the Queens-bound lanes.
The Grand Central goes under the leads for the Jamaica yard, where you can see 'E's and 'R's in movement outside, albeit not in passenger service. I used to love passing this same yard on the Van Wyck in the early-to-mid 70s when there was a big, interesting mix of equipment on the Queens IND. You could see R-4s sleeping right next to R-46s, along with R-16s, 38s, Slants, Mod-40s and 44s.
Saw a redbird group headed by an R29 very close to Westchester Square, head car was #8665 (I think, I can positively ID it as #866x).
What kinds of redbirds does the #6 use other than R36s and a few R29s (probably sent over from E 180 in exchange for the R62As running on Dyre Shuttle)?
Nick
The No.6 Line has lots of Redbirds. We have R29'S,R 33'S, and R 36's
I know this is off-topic, but I have to comment about 9/9/99(tomorrow's Y9K bug:)). MSN actually has a story on it! It's as phony as Y2K.
It's being described as a Y2K preview already. Guess what? Planes won't fall out of the sky and buildings explode because of a date change!
It's gotten ridiculous IMHO.
(Did anything happen on 7/7/77 or 8/8/88?)
Oh no not another STEVE ! I'm still having trouble with all the "Js" from Chicago :-(
[ Oh no not another STEVE ! I'm still having trouble with all the "Js"
from Chicago :-( ]
I second that. This new steve needs to change his name.
Having a relatively common name is quite annoying. At this point, I've gotten into the habit of ignoring people in my office who yell "Steve" across the room, because half of the time it isn't for me.
To summarize, there are several regular Steve's here:
SteveK (Me): Some of you may have met me at Branford.
Steve: of Councourse Barn (nee Jamaica)
Steve B: don't say anything bad about a R10 or the A train in front of him. Also likes talking about rims and stuff.
Other Steves that I don't know too much about: "Subway Steve" (just posted), "Steve L", name rings a bell, but I'm not sure. Anyways, all-in-all, too many steve's!
to avoid any confusion Ill change mine to JTC356. There goes another Steve
[ to avoid any confusion Ill change mine to JTC356. There goes another
Steve ]
I was kidding in my previous post, Steve.. Please don't feel like I am asking anyone to change their identity! (To be honest, I haven't gotten confused by all this, but I think others may have).
BTW: Isn't Concourse Yard Steve's initial K also?. Now, that would be confusing! Of course, he has a Harley, I think, and I have a Honda :)
No wait, Concorse Steve has a Honda too.
*I'm* the one with the Harley!!. Of course, I'm a Phil not a Steve. I don't know what I'll do if another Phil pops up here.......
My Initial is K. but I don't own a Harley - just 3 Honda's (4 if you count my car). I would rather not be linked to my work location because since 1994 I've been in the Concourse 3 times and Jamaica twice. It'll be just my luck, I'll end up being "239th St. Steve." For now, I claim seniority for using just plain Steve. If there is any other Steve that contests my claim, we'll work it out privately.
You're (IND) Steve to me ... that blankty blank Supt Steve to others, but we love you just the as well as plain old Steve !
Mr t__:^)
Yes, I remember you as being the original Steve also. I've always used my full name, but I think I may have become a SubTalker before Wayne Whitemore, but I could be wrong.
Wayne
[to avoid any confusion Ill change mine to JTC356. There goes another Steve]
Me too ... I was just kidding ... please don't feel the need to change on my account. I just happen to have a not so common name, but there's more to my story since my first initial is "R" for Robert,
talk about common names :-(
Mr t
We'll just have to start calling you Dave
At BSM we had, at one time, six people named David. Yell "DAVE!" and up to six different voices replied. It was confusing for a while, until some of the Dave's went off to other pursuits.
Don't forget about me because my real name is David & i used my name on the subtalk than i change to Meaney because there is too many David onSubtalk & u don't know who you are.
Peace Out
Meaney
Gee, I thought I knew who I was...
I'm keeping my present handle. Granted, nothing will ever compare to the R-10s, but that's just my opinion. Just because I loved the R-10s doesn't mean everyone else did. Put it this way: my father thinks Lawrence Welk is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and I can't stand the guy. He should have been arrested for impersonating a bandleader.
We had three Steves when I worked in our company's repair shop. It was pretty interesting. I have a Lithuanian middle name, and had it not been for the priest who baptized me, my first and middle names would have been switched. In retrospect, he did me a huge favor.
As for the rim shots, that originated with Milton Berle. Whenever he would tell a joke, his orchestra drummer would play a short roll and end it with a stinger on the hi-hat. We have a talk radio station in Denver whose hosts play a canned rim shot if they say something funny.
Funny but I actually miss the R10's. (and their IRT lookalikes) I hated them then because they weren't R1-9's!! I also hated the slants for that reason but now I pray for one when I'm with my 3yr old son. Thats the only subway train which I don't have to carry him to look out the front window!!! (He finally made the LIRR window on his tippy toes) And at 46 I'm not as strong as I used to be!!!
[ Thats the only subway train which I don't have to carry him to look
out the front window!!! (He finally made the LIRR window on his tippy ]
If you ask nicely, and you don't have a grumpy engineer, there's definately easy ways for your son to see out the window of a C3 cab car. I don't remember how high the storm window is, but there's a seat across from the engineer. Often the cab doors are flipped all the way open, which makes it like a open corner cab.
Next to William A. Padron, I'm probably the biggest R-10 fan around. As for fondness for cars, the R-1/9s and R-10s are dead even in my book. I loved both of those car classes, especially since the conductor worked the doors from the outside on them.
As for having too many Steves, I have yet to see a posting from any John Smith on Subtalk.
That always looked scary how the conductors worked the doors on the R1-10 cars. (Also some IRT cars had the same controls) I always wondered why a conductor would pick a route with those cars as opposed to other cars such as the standard where the door control was in the console between the center doors.
my transit buff page
That's a good point. I wondered about that myself. One slip on those step plates, and you'd be cut in half.
The R-12s and R-14s also had trigger boxes, but after they were transferred to the main lines, they never ran in solid trains again except for the ones which were used on the 3rd Ave. el. They were never found in the middle of a train; i. e., they were never located at a conductor's station on the mainlines.
Hmm, now there's an idea!!
No, I'm not new.
Up until last week, I was Broadway El Steve. I just changed my handle since I found "Broadway El" Steve exclusionist:)
If it's really too confusing I'll change it.
Since I've met about a dozen of you a picture comes to my mind when I see your post, so when you change your handle the picture gets cloudy.
It's like painting a Red Bird ORANGE ... oh perish the thought.
P.S. I had some fun with this, I hope all you Steve's did too !
Mr t__:^)
(For the record...)
I'll admit it: I'm a Steve too (a Steve L, to be exact). But when I first started reading Subtalk back in January, I decided there were just 2 too many. (At the time, I only saw Steve and Steve B. posting frequently.)
So on the rare occasions that I've posted something, I've always used "Henry".
There's good reason for the 'story.' 9999 was the computer code for "end of program" or "no data" in the good-old-days. That's why 7/7/77 or 8/8/88 weren't worries.
That being said, I agree that there's a lot less to worry about than the media will imply. Sure, a few pencil points will break tomorrow. But we'll still have to Stand-Clear-Of-The-Clozin-Dawz as always.
There will a few anecdotes tomorrow when all is said and done; some coincidences (problems that would have occured no matter what the date).
Yeah, there could have been problems with 9999 -- but nobody uses computer punch cards or ticker-tape anymore. We are long out of the "computer dark ages". Thank goodness for progress!
Doug aka BMTman
True, there will not be many problems tomorrow. Because even most computers that abbreviate the date abbreviate it 09/09/99...only the few that go 9/9/99 are the ones that will have problems. However, don't be mistaken that it's a Y2k preview....for many computers still abbreviate the date, which will be effected by Y2k. On January first, you don't want your computer reading 1/1/00 or 01/01/00.....you want it to say January 1st, 2000....for that is how the bug is fixed. But those who don't fix the bug will effect those who do, especially other countires. The real problems will occur when each time zone one-by-one hits the new year.
Now, I realize this topic is somewhat off topic, so if we continue to discuss it, you may as well ask questions like how NYC and the subways/buses/Metro North/LIRR will be effected....to keep within the guidelines of the forum. -Nick
You might think it's a joke or nothing to worry about but I know at least one large bank (whose name sounds like Chase Manhattan) is going to be on full Y2K alert mode tomorrow.
Some organizations are going into full panic mode over this, including my employer. I've spent way too much time doing Y2K paperwork in order to ensure that, in the off chance that something doesn't work on 01/01/2000, the people ultimately responsible are rewarded and those who had nothing to do with it get the blame. As the project manager for a complex, multi-system software/hardware platform, I will be in the office from one hour before Y2K at the international date line until five hours past Y2K at the same point - 30 hours straight, even though the chance of a problem in our system is essentially nil, and the chance of a problem that will affect anyone else in the world IS absolute zero. It's a pure publicity stunt for my employer, to be able to tell its customers that it is doing everything to ensure that their service will not be affected by Y2K, it's being done at the expense of my family, and I won't be getting paid one extra nickel for it either. But that's life.
There are many doomsayers out there who prey on people's fears. Those who are still forecasting doom because of Y2K don't know what they are talking about. The infrastructure of America, or of the world, will not suddenly cease operating on January 1, 2000. The absolute worst that could happen is that someone won't be billed for a unit of electricity or a phone call, or the bill may be delayed a couple of days. But the electricity will keep flowing and the phones will keep working (although the phone networks may get temporarily overloaded if everyone tries to make a call right after midnight "just to make sure"). Life will go on, just as it has before.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[There are many doomsayers out there who prey on people's fears. Those who are still forecasting doom because of Y2K don't know what they are talking about. The infrastructure of America, or of the world, will not suddenly cease operating on January 1, 2000.]
When I was 12 years old or thereabouts, I read in this book _Criswell Predicts_ (by Criswell, a crackpot psychic who had enjoyed a burst of popularity) that the world would end on August 18, 1999. Even though I knew it was almost certainly nonsense, I must confess that there indeed was a slight modicum of doubt in my impressionable adolescent mind. Needless to say, 8/18/99 passed uneventfully, just as 1/1/2000 surely will.
By the way - Criswell himself didn't have to put up with any criticism when the world didn't end as he predicted. Ever since 1984, he has been, as the French would say, eating dandelions by the root.
I'm kind of glad it didn't. It would've ruined my birthday.
-Hank :)
Ohh Drat there goes my Continental Miles!!!
I heard that plenty of companies are taking this very seriously. I'm an IT professional and I've spend lots of time on Y2K tasks.
Wayne
Pardon a possible dumb question, but I've seen this ad on the LIRR lately for IT employers. I assume IT stands for Information Technology. Is that correct?
Welcome to the jungle! Try straightening out a native-grown medical billing system where every move is determined by the difference between dates. We rewrote the julian date conversion algorithm, redid all of our files to carry eight digits for the date, fixed God knows how many screens and report programs, what a mess! Good thing we flagged all the accounts on file that had a birthdate of 18xx back in 1997.
Wayne
What could possibly happen that could really warrant
this much fuss?
Personally, I don't think much more of it than some New
Year's inconvenience for some people.
But your computer will shut down, your bank account will
automatically close, nuclear missiles all across the
planet will launch themselves and life as we know it will
cease becuase of a date change?(That's my last word on the
subject).
[What could possibly happen that could really warrant
this much fuss?]
I do think that some people are paranoid, but others do not take the Y2K issue serious enough. I realize that many people don't have a good understanding of this problem. I explained several times that pretty much every service that we use/enjoy involves computers in some way. Many of these systems are perform based on the time and or date - therefore it is necessary for the systems to ready. In the perfect world the original designers would've been less short-sighted.
BTW - Yes, IT does stand for Information Technology.
If you're in this field - there's big $$$ to be made on Y2K projects, especially for programmers/mainframe people.
Wayne
IAT6108S World Abended. Press CNTL-ALT-DEL to reboot ....
("Abended", for non-Information Technology people, is an "abbreviation" of "abnormally terminated").
--Mark
[Press CNTL-ALT-DEL to reboot ....]
Also know as the "three finger salute" to us DOSers, i.e. before Windows 98 when the PC use to freeze up a lot ... use to, ha ha.
Mr t__:^)
Yes, I try to remain true to my DOS roots. My mentor was a DOS head as some people say.
I recently started using Explorer regularly.
Wayne
I know someone who is an accountant at a large firm here in Memphis. They have software that prints out tax returns so that they don't have to fill them out.
Well, 9/9/99 gets printed as "VARIOUS" on the returns, so there is definately somewhat of an issue. Their solution? They are having a company-wide golf tournament tomorrow. :-)
Brandon
"Now, I realize this topic is somewhat off topic, so if we continue to discuss it, you may as well ask questions like how NYC and the subways/buses/Metro North/LIRR will be effected....to keep within the guidelines of the forum."
Here in Chicago, Metra not only has a Y2K disclosure statement on its website at:
http://www.metrarail.com/y2k-statement.html
it also devoted the cover page of the Aug./Sept. "On the (Bi)Level" to how Y2K will -- or more precisely will not -- affect Metra operations. The newsletter in question is also on the Web, at:
http://www.metrarail.com/Bilevel/otbl0899.html
As an aside, there was recently a top-level Chicago conference on Y2K, the highlights of which were broadcast on WGN Radio, at which spoke Mayor Daley and representatives of the Banking Association, Commonwealth Edison (electric power), Ameritech (telephones), and several other utilities and service companies potentially vulnerable to Y2K. I don't recall if there was anyone in attendance from the CTA. The speakers were generally optimistic that important and/or safety-related systems like electric power, telephones, water and sewer, air traffic control, automatic elevators, bank computers, etc. would NOT fail in the U.S. but that there could be failures of just such vital systems in some foreign countries as well as computer failure and data loss in some smaller to mid-sized companies.
Actually, the VMS operating system *still* has provisions in it for punch cards ($deck, and a few others). It also can do *linemode* editing, in case you have a geniune Teletype.
Anyway, this Y2k stuff won't affect me much - the school's system is a Vax (long since Y2K compliant), and I have a Macintosh (Nah nah!!), so I just have to worry about power comming in.
Related stuff:
Does anyone know what computers the MetroCard(tm) system runs on?
Also, don't Westinghouse E Cam controllers keep track of time in order to log glitches, etc? For that matter - where does one get parts for anything Westinghouse? Last time I checked, Westinghouse didn't exist anymore....
Hi Phil. WABCO should exist as we do have a number at TMNY to get the Johnstown PCC brake cylinders resleeved. Interestingly, Bendex sold out and it's new owner went bankrupt shortly afterwards. I heard from CED that some existing Westinghouse cars may get the ECAMS to replace the OEM. My guess is that since Westcode and Westinghouse service parts arrive on a regular basis to yards such as Pitkin, that we have to look a little harder.
Johnstown PCC brake cylinders resleeved????? AFAIK, ALL the Johnstown PCC's were all-electric, and don't have brake cylinders - All-electrics have BRAKE ACTUATORS, which only came in two flavors, GE or Westinghouse.
BTW, it's 0134 here, and already 9/9/99, and nothing funny has happened in the hour and thirty-four minutes since midnight.
The previous owners of 358 had modified the car with a diesel engine and air brakes.
O.K., 358 is not a PCC, it's one of the dozen standard double-end cars that almost every eastern museum got one of. Wasn't 358 formerly at Stone Mountain? I believe a picture of it, decked out in a "good 'ol days" paint scheme made it into Trains Magazine in the late 1960's.
Yes, 358 is at Kingston - see the pictures at this site, including a shot of 358 in Stone Mountain livery.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was at Stone Mountain three months ago and rode on the train. There was no mention of any converted streetcars ever running there.
It's been a while - according to Kingston's web page it ended service there in the early '80s (they acquired it in 1991). I don't recall if it was there when I visited Stone Mountain in 1970.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
WABCO Is VERY much alive. It is now a subsidiary of Motive Power Industries (The old Morrison Knudsen rail operations)., they have a real nice online parts catalog (I went through $75.00 worth of ink jet cartridges printing it out) and it was worth every penny.
[Does anyone know what computers the MetroCard(tm) system runs on? ]
I think they're IBM. The report software is DB2, and depots/stations are PCs with OS2. Now that's part of the security system because so few folks still use OS2.
Would you believe the system was designed on a PC then ported to mainfrane ?
Mr t__:^)
You'd be surprised how many bank ATMs are powered with OS/2 ....
--Mark
The terminal inside the booth is a Z86 running DOS Protected Mode. The main computer in the station is a 486. No windows here!
Thank goodness we went live with OS390 two weeks ago.
Being the youngest person here to ever operate on a VMS system (I will continue doing so today) I've seen all the weird gadgets and stuff associated with the system. For that matter, 8/1/99 was when my company FINALLY got rid of all all its WYSE terminals and Texas Instruments thermal TTYs. Our changeover to a Y2K compliant system (STILL VMS) is 10/1/99, or thereabouts. Right in the middle of their busiest season. They replaced the TTYs and WYSE sets with IBM 300GLs, running a proprietary DOS-based terminal program under Windows98, which is causing all sorts of problems with the computer illiterates in the company (about 80% of those in the field) who say 'Hey the program didn't start fast enough for me, I'l click it again'. They then call the help desk.
Oh, and they don't expect any 9/9/99 stuff at all, because the dates coded in the system are 09/09/99.
-Hank
I keep fearing the day my school dumps VMS for an "industry standard solution" (read: wintel) Our current uptime, on a system running DNS, web serving, and 6000+ email accounts (among other things), is in the order of 80+ days, with reboots/upgrades over the semester breaks. I doubt a clone running NT is going to touch that.
[Yeah, there could have been problems with 9999 -- but nobody uses computer punch cards or ticker-tape anymore. We are long out of the "computer dark ages". Thank goodness for progress!]
Doug O-L-D friend, you're dating youself ! I have fond memories of putting that tape in the teletype machine ... or how about the fun when you dropped the deck of cards. Certainly more fun then a loop in your code.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston -- I'm not that O-L-D! I just remember the computer punch cards from my high school days. Those things were huge and made a racket when they were in use. You don't have to go back too far to remember those dinosaurs! ;-)
Yeah, I remember dropping a deck or too of those cards.
Doug aka BMTman
Uh oh ... I remember when cards were the only way, and I had to drive to another building if I wanted the cards read onto tape ... and when our paychecks were printed on a punch card so my employer could balance the corporate checkbook faster ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If the date is stored properly, as I believe most are, it would be internally represented as: 090999, which is NOT 999999. Put slashes and zero-suppression on 090999 and you have 9/09/99 or 9/ 9/99.
I haven't seen code like that used since back in the late 1970s when we were using punch cards. It used to mean "end of batch" for us, not "end of run".
Wayne
I was wondering if anyone knows when the next fantrip will be?
I know the last couple of fantrips where in September.
If anyone knows more please keep me posted.
SORRY! There will be no trip for this year at least. I went on the 8/26/1999 Canarise/14th St Line tour with the Transit Museum and asked them this question. Here is their answer:
NO. The cars need electrical work and they have asbestos. Nobody wants to work on them.
Mark Feinman contacted the private firm that sponsored the previous trips and he also confirms no trip.
I feel like I am missing an old friend! maybe next year ( I hope!)
As an attemped fix, I am going on the lIRR fan trip instead.
I guess this means they won't be running on the 42nd St. shuttle on October 27. Unless, of course, they made everyone hold their breath during each run.
Where have I heard this before? The next question is who is doesn't want to work on them? The Museum People or TA personnel in general? I can only see nothing but bad things happening to these cars if they are left to detiorate to a hapless condition. If that is the case, then preserving the cars could have been a waste of time. The BU's may never move again under their own power because of the asbestos issue. At least they're inside the NY Transit Museum and are protected. The Lo-Vs, the D-Types, and others are not protected, as they are exposed to the elements of Coney Island Yard.
Asbestos has been around for years and is not confined to just a Lo-V or a BU. As I recall, all R Types have it in some way. Nobody was complaining about asbestos when the BUs ran in 1980. Why complain now? I hate politics in the worst way.
I have to tell you but my worst fear is having someone in the TA office call up and tell the Superintendent at Coney Island to get rid of those Museum Cars as they serve no purpose other than taking up track space. Remember the purge of Museum Equipment back in the 1980s??? Absolutely anything is possible.
Right now I'm disappointed, but not surprised. I would certainly hope that there would be a substitute available for ailing Lo-Vs and D-Types. SMEE cars anyone? It might be the perfect time to have a SMEE car fan trip since a number of our beloved Redbirds are heading up to the big train yard in heaven.
-Stef
Have the Museum "assume ownership" of the lower level of 9th Ave / 39th St (ex-Culver) and park the museum cars currently in CI yard there. The lower level can hold up to 30 60-foot cars on its three tracks. The ends of the station can be fenced off in a similar fashion to that of the Transit Museum at Court Street. Open one of the entrances to the lower level and charge an admission fee to both see the cars and the lower level station, to make even a little bit of money back that could be used to offset part of the costs of ownership. Also, moves to CI yard for servicing are very easy using the center track of the West End Line. This scenario frees up track space in CI Yard so people int he "TA office" have no reason to complain.
--Mark
Just got my calendar. There will be a tour 11/13 of Grand Central subways with Joe Cunningham and 12/12 of "Subway Unification" with a tour guide with initials A.S. (This person is known to us!)
Also in December-time TBA ,is Joe Raskin's lecture of Routes not Built.(yes- I did persuade him to give us a piece for the site!)
(There will be some more activities but I listed those of interest to SUb Talkers.)
While the museum is closed atcivities will be held at the satellite facillity at Grand Central.
tour with the Transit Museum and asked them this question. Here is their answer:
NO. The cars need electrical work and they have asbestos. Nobody wants to work on them.
Mark Feinman contacted the private firm that sponsored the previous trips and he also confirm
Depends on to whom you talk. I've been under those 4 Lo-Vs
to help the TA mechanics diagnose some control group problems.
There are some problems, but nothing that is beyond serviceability.
The asb****s issue is more of a political one than anything else.
There are areas in the electrical system which are insulated with
the funky white stuff. On the Lo-Vs, it is in good condition
and certainly poses no threat to anyone sitting up in the car or
in the station. To work on the wiring in these areas merely requires
some simple precautions. The Transit Museum had a professional
consultant come down and evaluate the conditions on their cars and
the recommendation was to leave it in place, paint it with glyptal
and not worry about it.
The union that represents the car maintainers (is that TWU 100 or
some other union?) did not want its people to have to work on
the cars and that is a legitimate gripe since these are privately
owned vehicles.
The union that represents the car maintainers (is that TWU 100 or
some other union?) did not want its people to have to work on
the cars and that is a legitimate gripe since these are privately
owned vehicles.
This would be a legitimate grievance if the cars' maintenance was in the jurisdiction of a different union.
As a union issue, I would think the maintainers would demand that they maintain any equipment that runs in their jurisdiction, rather than have the work performed by non-union personnel.
Sounds like "not my job, man," to me.
Asbestos isn't dangerous. There were two varieties used, AFAIK, a long fiber and a short fiber type, only one is dangerous and int's the less used of the two. Compounds exist not only to cover it up, but to actually convert it into a non dangerous form, yet retain the flame resistance it needs. On top of that, pretty much the only people who got cancer from it were those who worked in asbestos factories for dozens of years. FWIW, fiberglass is a suspected cause of lung cancer too - got your 12" of it in the attic?
There's more of it floating around from car brake linings than anything else anyway - yet it was only recently that non asbestos linnings became standard, and that stuff isn't treated like toxic waste anyway.
As for the unions - why not like union members *volunteer* to work on the cars? I'm sure a few would - and it's good PR too.
But in any case, I think the asbestos issue is just a cover for some bigger issue with running these cars, and I suspect that issue is political more than technical.
The most depressing and disgusting thing I saw when I was in New York occurred while I was waiting for the 3 train to take me to Brooklyn. At the end of the platform on a quiet afternoon I heard some shuffling. Seconds later I saw a big ugly rat scurry past. I mean he was big and ugly and he acted as if I wasn't around. I hope this doesn't sound stupid but after asking and getting confirmation that there are a lot of rats in the NY subway system, my question is has the TA, the mayor or anyone else in charge ever thought about eradicating this problem? I'd like to hear from you on this because I lost my appetite when I saw that disgusting thing.
Thats nothing. Go to 370 Jay Street and check out the overbloated vermin on the 13th Floor. Most even have dress codes of suits and ties. As far as the subway tunnel versions, they are fed by the filthy disgusting persons who throw their lunch and debris onto the roadway. Although the TA has a policy to place rodenticide in infested areas, the rodents will always come down from the parks and streets as long as they know they will have promotional opportunities in NYCT.
Well, having had some experience with New York rats (we're talking the four legged kind, inter alia) I would say: Try not to worry about it too much. Just pretend its a squirrel, which the "brown rat" rattus rattus closely resembles, having a really bad tail day!
I'm not joking--most local rats will do exactly what that one did--scurry past and completely ignore you.
And yes, they do try to eradicate rats on the system--through poison. This is something that needs to be used sparingly, because throwing poison around carelessly can have unintended consequences.
Rats, like seagulls and cochroaches, tend (at least in the urban environment) to be markers of human presence. They exist in proportion to the amount of uneaten food left lying around.
One unusual feature of rats is the lack of size disparity among fully grown ones. Nearly all adult rats weight about one pound. The reports we've all heard about "rats the size of puppies" stem from a human tendency to exaggerate the size of rats seen in inappropriate locations, including subway stations.
Pete, I'm not kidding. The one I saw was reallly big. I couldn't believe my eyes. I thought as you did until I saw that disgusting creature.
Maybe that's why that cop emptied his 9mm in the tunnel the other day -- SUPER-RAT attack!
Doug aka BMTman
Pass that along to the cop's attorney.
It's more plausible than anything I've heard so far.
Then I've seen very very fluffy one pound rats!
There must be a mutation occurring in the subway because I've seen track rabbits of the size that Sea Beach Man has seen, and they looked like they weighed more than one pound to me ("rattus giganticus").
--Mark
Check out the rats at Chambers St. Huge, I tell you, almost cat-sized.
I am sure there are also IV Rattus Norvegicus out there as well as the common brown variety. These are grey, and can get to be as big as small cats, up to 8 pounds. I saw one of these critters sitting pretty on the top of the third-rail cover at East Broadway last year. An "F" train came and went. Did he care? Not a whit. He was still there after the "F" pulled out.
Wayne
Don't bother escaping to Hartford to avoid the wildlife!!!!
Walking around campus with friend one night, something comes running around by us, and I tought I steeped on it cause I felt a squishy thing under my foot and heard a weird squweak. Didn't get a good look at it, but i though at first it was a loose kitten. Aw man, I hurt a poor little kitty? So we go looking in the bushes. Bam!!! Thing comes running out at full tilt, it's a freaking rat!!! Runs up a gutter drain pipe....
Another time, I'm walking to class. I'm heading down the stairs, and on the other side is a cute little black and white.....skunk. We just passed each other, nothing happend. Little guy was just causally walking around campus on the sidewalk.
Another time, I'm walking home from class at night, and I see one. now, understand that I'm wearing black/gray/white (snow) camo pants, *big* black boots, and a black and white T-shirt (Corrosion of Conformity!!). scared the little guy into a corner and into a ball. I guess he thought I was a huge skunk out to kill him.
I've also had birds and squirrles outside my window working to forward their species.
I was in Penn once when I saw mice (not rats) crawling around the LIRR tracks there. A neighbor near me has a few peacocks. Ever see one of THOSE things FLY? And there are goats up the street too.... All this in suburban Nassau county!
As for rats in the subway? Yeah, they're getting bigger again, though they're still not as big as they were in the 80's...
Wildlife is alive and well in New York City; once while waiting for the '5' at Gun Hill, I distinctly saw the remains of a raccoon that must have wandered into the open cut and succumbed at the hands of a Redbird. Yes, a raccoon in the Bronx; no mistaking that tail. Many exposed lines run in areas that still have parkland and/or garbage dumps. I hate to think what might venture onto the outdoor 'L' tracks.
That's nothing: while biking along the Belt Parkway by Pennsylvania Ave. I was startled by a loud gwaking coming from the foliage. There before me was a huge bird, which I thought was a turkey. After regaining my composure I realized it was a pheasant -- a bird common to the marshlands of the southshore of all of Long Island.
And Canarsie Park is also home to many white-tailed rabbits (seen them too, usually in the spring).
Doug aka BMTman
Before I got promoted and sent to Bed/Stuy I worked in the 111Pct. We had loads of radio runs for racoons in Little Neck & Douglaston (especially by Alley Pond Pk)
Coney Island had a sizable rabbit population when the Dutch settled in the area. That's how it got its name (Konijn Eiland (sp)).
You mean there was a confrontation between rat and F train and the F train came through unscathed? Wow!
Some of those rats think they're as tough as BMT standards. And you know something? They probably are.
Wasn't it a rat in the switch frog that derailed that BMT Standard (#2208) in the Montague Street tunnel way back when? By the way, the BMT Standard took out a big chunk of curtain wall and a few girders, but was otherwise unscathed.
Wayne
What about the rat? I know, I know: duh!!!
I'm not surprised the tunnel sustained more damage than the standard. The only thing that could possibly hurt a BMT standard would have been a Triplex - and even then, it would have been a close fight.
Speaking of the Montague St. tunnel, what's the track arrangement at the Nassau St. turnoff, specifically on the Brooklyn-bound side? I've ridden through that tunnel almost every time I've been to the city in the recent years, but I'm drawing a blank.
[I am sure there are also IV Rattus Norvegicus out there as well as the common brown variety. These are grey, and can get to be as big as small cats, up to 8 pounds.]
No, no, no - it's an urban legend. Regardless of sub-species, rats do not much exceed one pound.
I get the high end of normal Norway rat as 600 grams, about a pound and a third. The "ship rat" kind about half that.
Now I'm sure they can get heavier. My beagle dog has exceeded her normal weight range, but this has not resulted in a beagle the size of a Rottweiler. After a certain point, it becomes a wider beagle, not a bigger beagle.
You can't fool genetics.
[I get the high end of normal Norway rat as 600 grams, about a pound and a third. The "ship rat" kind about half that.
Now I'm sure they can get heavier. My beagle dog has exceeded her normal weight range, but this has not resulted in a beagle the size of a Rottweiler. After a certain point, it becomes a wider beagle, not a bigger beagle.]
Rats have an extremely high metabolic rate that probably prevents them from getting too overweight. Because they normally spend much of their time eating, it would be difficult for them to overeat. AFAIK, experiments with lab rats in which they do become overweight use special high-calorie foods rather than excessive amounts of their normal foods.
I would imagine that rats living in the subway have a somewhat irregular food source and hence are unlikely to exceed normal caloric requirements.
I once saw a rat snuffling around in a display window of one of the popular bakery chains--I won't mention which one, but it was in an underground location viewable by transit users (this was also about 10 years ago).
If anyone (anyrat?) was positioned to be 10 pounds+, this guy was, but he looked normal size to be.
I think exagerations of rat sizes may come from unfamilarity with the animal. Maybe people are mentally comparing them to mice.
When I lived near Prospect Park, I used to see seagulls wheeling around the Parade Grounds whenever a storm was coming--they didn't seem all that big to me. But the first time I saw one standing on the lower roof of an R1 at Coney Island, I was amazed how big it looked. If you had asked me, I would have said "it was as big as a turkey!"
"You Can't fool Genetics" -- Oh Yeah, between all of the yummy chemical wastes and biohazardous matter those things are exposed to, I'll bet their DNA resembles a double helix that has been twisted into a corkscrew. Add to that natural selection which would favor the larger rats, and you can understand how these rats can get so huge.
In Syracuse, one time I saw a raccoon dead on the Interstate (690) IT WAS AS BIG AS A GERMAN SHEPHERD, SO HELP ME
9/9/99
TECHNICALLY,THEY'RE FARE EVADERS !!
Bill Newkirk
TECHNICALLY, [RATS ARE] FARE EVADERS !!
Not so. If the rats are not able to reach the readers to swipe their MetroCards, and the MTA desn't provide a reasonable accomodation (such as having an aide swipe for them) they must ride free.
Besides, they don't ride the trains. (I hope)
Hey, Jeff, the cockroaches ride, so why not the rats.
Might I suggest that the MTA invest in miniature MCs with matching sized swipe-readers and turnstiles. ;-)
That should boost revenues through the roof!
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately, they have been known to. I was on a 3 shuttle about 9 AM one Sunday morning (just to ride it) and encountered one of the little beasties snacking on someone's leftover fragment of an Egg McMuffin. Needless to say I headed for the other end of the car in a hurry and boarded the next car.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No they're not! they are less than 112 cm tall. Unless the ratio of rat:human in the subway is more than 4:1, then they're all qualified to ride free.
No joke, I saw one once when I worked at the World Trade Center that was huge. I was on one of the sub-level loading docks late one day on a weekend. I saw what I thought was a cat walking along the wall of the loading area. I start to make cat attracting noises (you now pusss pusss noises) when I saw the thing step away from the wall and into the light. It was about 12 inches long with an equally long tail and maybe 6 inches high. Dark grey or light brown. Looked right at me and gave me a look. I took off running for the freight elevator. When it came I told the operator about it and he casually replied "Oh that was just a warf rat, we get a bunch of em down here, especially at night. Eat all the garbage and chew through boxes and stuff. Don't mess with em, they will come after you." I took his word for it.
Now if you want to see a whole bunch of regular TA rats, you have to goto 179th St station on the F line around 2 am on garbage pick up day. There is a garbage room at the North end of the Southbound platform (crews know this place well as it is at the foot of the crew stairs). When the garbage room is opened for pickup, the garbage collectors leave it for a while and then bang on the sides to empty the room of rats. At least 2 dozen rats will come running from inside of the room.
Later,
Chris
First of all, I want to thank you guys for your imput about the rat problem that I eluded to when I saw that creature in the subway last month. However, as you might have noticed, my grammar was less than accurate. What it should have been titled was: "They're Big and they're ugly." I'm happy no one corrected me on that but I was a little ashamed of myself for such blatant misuse of the language. I can tel you guys one thing. I was not putting up some smoke when I described that rat I saw. It was very big and very long.
Leaving garbage bags on the platform at such stations like 23st 6 ave on the F line only makes the problem worse.
Seconds later I saw a big ugly rat scurry past. I mean he was big and ugly and he acted as if I wasn't around.
Compared to some of the things in the NY subway, mere rats are downright benign. It's not trying to steal your wallet, smash your head in, or give you the latest third world disease, for example.
There's really no reason to wipe out rodentia of the NY subway unless they pose a health hazard.
Don't these vermin have rabies? I see these creatures at Bedford Park Blvd on the D line, and they are big, ugly and mean.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
No, the only creatures in any numbers with rabies in this area (but not NYC or LI) were raccoons, but those have pretty much cycled themselves out.
And the only reason for the rabies scare in raccoons was because some rocket-scientist hunters is WV, having hunted out most of the local population, imported some specimens from FL, where rabies is an ongoing problem. From WV, the disease slowly spread through the northeast.
Occasionally, a bat shows up with rabies, but this is exceedingly rare. AFAIK there has been no significant rabies in area rodents since WWII or before.
Bubonic plague is carried by rats.
To be more exact, bubonic plague is carried by fleas which live on rats.
The black death in Europe was a human variety which was transmitted by fleas who used ratty transit to get from place to place.
Plenty of (o)possums on Staten Island, a lot of them traffic casualties.
Didn't you know? Rats are the official mascot of the NYC subway system... :-)
subfan
Subfan: That's the funniest thing I've heard this week. I'm still laughing but if you've seen them you've got to admit they are hideous and scary.
They are kind of ugly, but scary? Not really, unless you aren't expecting them.
subfan (all lowercase)
Since I moved out of NYC two years ago - I had sort of forgotten about the rats. The last time I was in town I was railfanning and saw a hefty rodent scurring along. I wish something could be done to control the rat population on the system. Hopefully, those passengers that are habitual litterbugs will wise up one day.
Wayne
my question is has the TA, the mayor or anyone else in charge ever thought about eradicating this problem?
Yes, they all have, but until New Yawkers stop littering, the rats will continue to feast.
They actually serve another purpose - they have become unofficial watchdogs of the system, keeping unauthorized humans off the tracks ;)
--Mark
well lets see the more important way to eliminate the rat population in the subways is for the human slobs who EAT in the subway and then disgard what remains on the platforms or on subway car seats and floors, he the subway riders literally feed them thats why its so hard to rid the place of them.
Eating by subway riders should be BANNED would be a way to reduce not eliminate the rodent population.
Anthony: I think it's a great idea. You know it wouldn't take much in the way of willpower to forego putting something in your mouth from the period of 15 minutes to an hour, but at the same time there is going to have to be a concerted effort from the powers that be to put into effect a rat abating program, I know there was not the garbage or the rat problem when I moved out of New York 45 years ago.
There have been rats in the system (and in the City--and in the 'burbs too, for that matter) for as long as I can remember.
I recall the Daily News giving out free packets of Warfarin in Brooklyn around 1960.
If you're at all interested in the adaptation of different species to their surroundings, I observe that rats in the single family house areas I'm familiar with tend to live more as they would in the wild--actually building nests and burrows outdoors, preferably (for both them and us) in undeveloped land or lightly used parkland.
Their numbers seem way less than in many city areas--they don't get as much residential stuff and they have to compete with other critters for the other goodies--muskrats, birds and the no-nonsense raccoons and 'possums for park leavings, and cats and raccoons for the that suburban commercial cornucopia--the Dempster Dumpster.
There has been some discussion here regarding the existence of a subway station at 76 St and Pitkin Av so last week when I was in that neck of the woods I did some reconnoitering. I took the A train to Grant Av Station and got onboard the Shoe Leather Express. There is a noticible hump on Pitkin Av that extends east to Elderts Lane. The hump at Grant is explained by the yard leads from Pitkin Yard to Grant Avenue which pass over the four main tracks (A tks) of the Fulton Street Subway. I would venture a guess judging from the terrain that these tracks or at least the trackways extend about one block further east to Elderts Lane where Pitkin Av takes a noticible dip. East of this point there are no signs of any construction or ventilation shafts or gradings in the sidewalk. At 76 Street and Pitkin Av there is no provision for any stairways and if they were to be built it would be necessary to take over portions of homeowners property to do so. Since all these homes seem post war (WWII) I would think that some sort of provision would have been made in the property line when these houses were built. There is a ventilation shaft in the middle of Conduit Blvd between Grant Av and Sheridan Av but this is explained by the aforementioned yard leads. Also it seems that the Pitkin Yard has suffered the ignominy or having a parking lot consructed over at least part of the yard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
New Pictures come to the Subway Section of TransiTALK check it out!
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650/NYCTransit.html
Trevor
Today I dropped a co-worker off at E.NY LIRR and looked up at the Atlantic Av station. There were large wooden boards along the whole Canarsie bound platform, extending the whole length of the platform. Anyone knows what it is and what they're doing? I assume it has something to do with the closing of one of the 2 parallel els that the "L" uses.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
try this color quiz
I think they are removing the asbestos-laden roofing material, similar to the way they did it at Brighton Beach and Ocean Pkwy. The MTA got into a LOT of trouble for the haphazard way they removed these materials from other BMT stations along the M line a few years back.
Frowm what I hear, the Sneideker Ave part of the Canarsie el is slated to be demolished. I don't know if the present 4 track segment will be retained. It should, so it can be used as a terminal if need be.
Why would there be any need to use it as a terminal? The ENY yard is right there, so there should never be any problems with train storage.
subfan
The yard may be there, but you still need a place to turn equipment back in case of construction or some emergency service disruption.
As far as I know, when all is said and done, Atlantic Av will go from 6 tracks to 2. That doesn't leave much space for any kind of facility to turn back equipment. Whatever the case maybe, a crossover should be built for any necessary turning of equipment as is to accomodate moves going to and from ENY Yard.
-Stef
Atlantic Ave is used as a terminal during construction projects on the Canarsie line when a one-track shuttle is needed. Keeping the option of having a 4 track station would be a smart idea.
If they ever have the old n shortline again.
Jeff, what you see there is replacement of the southbound track. It must be kept in mind that the Canarsie Atlantic Ave. station is one of the oldest in-use el structures (it's almost a century old!). I believe the same situation will be done to the current southbound track, K1, once P1 is completed (while the demolition of the eastern-most platforms commences).
Regarding the LIRR East NY station: I think it would be advantageous -- but of course too expansive -- to have an elevator/stairway that would physically connect the Canarsie line to the LIRR. Currently, to go from either station you have to wind down the maze of staircases from the "L" to reach the street (desolate even in the daytime) which then must be crossed to enter the LIRR station. If the MTA made a connection between the two I think more passengers would be inclined to use the Eas NY station and thusly the Canarsie Atlantic Ave. station in return.
Doug aka BMTman
I work near the Gates Av station (still can't find a remnant of the Lex) on the "J" and live on L.I. Although I usually drive (or motorcycle) to work, when I do take the train I take the LIRR to ENY and walk to Bway Junc since I'm on the North side of the LIRR. Coming back, when I get off the J at Bway Junc I only take the "L" to Atlantic if I see one waiting there or entering the station. Gives me great running exercize!!
P.S. I hate the crossover tunnel at ENY even with an off duty!!! (but at least I see the "Trains to Rockaways" tiles spoke about in an earlier thread)
Atlantic Avenue (L) was rebuilt under the dual contracts and the current version you see dates from approximately 1916-1917. The original station structure is gone.
Wayne
Doesn't the Sneideker Ave. portion (the platform that now is used by the Manhattan bound L and has the outside track removed) date to the opening date of the Canarsie el in 1906?
At least part of it apparently goes back even further, to Kings County Elevated days (original Fulton Street Line).
The structure is such an amalgam of parts, that even TA engineers are not supposed to be sure what members of made of what material (cast iron vs. steel) or the exact dating of certain on the components.
It was improved in the Dual Contract era.
K'Siva V'Chasima Tova! A happy and healthy new year to you all!
And to you!!
Is it Rosh Hashanah already?? Happy and healthy New Year to you.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Rosh Hashanah begins Friday night at sundown. I'll be at Monmouth Reform Temple in Tinton Falls, NJ, singing L'ma'ancha and all the rest. Cantor's got me singing bass this year since we got a very good new tenor - it's worse than learning it for the first time since I keep trying to sing the tenor line out of habit. But it makes for a well-balanced sound that hopefully the congregation will appreciate.
L'shanah tovah!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
May all of my friends have a happy and sweet New Year.
L'shana tova techatevu v'techatemu, l'alter, l'chaim tovim, uL'shalom.
subfan
May you be inscribed in the Book of Life for another year.
--Mark
Well I once again survived the drive from Boston to LI... very heavy rain all along the way. Even called in an accident on the Merritt Parkway to the "WCBS Traffic Center."
So this evening is 5760? I wonder if we'll have Y5.760K problems?
The very same to you, my friend . We all think of this wish at each time every year. The good lord holds our destiny in his hands. Maybe that's how we all got to be "subway -nuts"
Chuck Greene
A happy and prosperous 5760 from a Presbyterian! (Hey, not everybody's got a Y2K problem!)
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Even though this site is not run by the MTA it could at least have some links to the MTA complaint department. This site is high on search engine results. I found it via "NYC subway complaints".
Suggestion: Add some useful links for MTA feedback and contacts.
They don't HAVE a complaint dept that is interested in hearing complaints. Nor is it on the internet. For that matter, there are no email addresses at all on the MTA's web site. You waana complain, you'll have to write snail mail.
-Hank
SMY, It might be something to put in your letter, i.e. many in the TA have email access, so why not put one on their Web site ?
BWT, Their MC Prod. Devel. answers e-mail.
Also many of the "privates" have web sites (but no e-mail addresses either), my company doesn't YET have a Web site, but does have a e-mail address "info@qsbus.com". This AM the individual who reads the e-mail was dealing with a phone customer complaint when I went by.
Mr t__:^)
For that matter, there are no email addresses at all on the MTA's web site. You waana complain, you'll have to write snail mail.
But there's a good reason for this. All snail mail complaints are specially filed as they are received.
They tried using this same method for e-mail complaints, but it got too expensive to keep throwing those hard drives in the trash.
"They don't HAVE a complaint dept that is interested in hearing complaints"
Hank, I have to humbly dis-agree with you here. Back in 1994 or 1995, a Brooklyn gentleman complained about door chimes being too loud on R-46 & R-68 cars. His complaint was fowarded to the Assistant Cheif Mechanical Officer. He passed the complaint to me. I was dispatched with a db meter and told to get data. I prepared a marvelous 'study' on the subject. I submitted it to the ACMO and thought that should be the end of it. However, this person still persists, 5 years later. From what I was told, 'they' were trying to satisfy this person who was writing letters every few months. Is short, they jump through hoops or should I say, they make us jump through hoops to answer these complaints.
As long as those door chimes are in tune, I wouldn't complain. Even then, I would just deal with it.
If you have a Complaint you can mail it to Transit Headquarters which you will be lucky to get an answer or you can call Costomer services.
I think the reason why there aren't any links has been pretty well covered (there's nothing to link to). But there's also the fact that I do not want to have this site become a front-end for that of the MTA, nor do I want to spend my time handling things that they should handle themselves. This includes things like timetables, fare information, handicapped accessibility, how to get somewhere, and general use of the subway/bus system inquiries (and believe me I get a ton of these despite disclaimers that we aren't the TA).
I do, however, index some pages from the Official MTA site in nycsubway.org's internal search engine, but when these are found in response to a query they are clearly maked as offsite links.
Besides, I could spend forever providing links to all sorts of points at the Official MTA site so people who come here could find things easier but do you think the MTA webmaster would return the courtesy by linking to us under any circumstances? I am pretty sure he's been told not to!
-Dave
OK try this one. http://home.earthlink.net/~straphangers/statesubs99.html
It is the straphanger's association. I believe strongly in writing complaints to destinations over the TA, such as the EEOC or OSHA then let the crap trickle down through the ranks where ever possible. This site also has the superintendant's numbers which don't help in winning grievances but sure are a lot of fun. Unfortunately they are now staffed with answering machine some of the time so good luck with your bad luck.
I dunno if this is the first day, or if I just hadn't been paying attention earlier in the week, but the R33 Singles are back on the flushing line. Took 9316 southbound from HP Ave this morning.
I guess now that's its September the TA is putting these air-conditionless cars back in service.
They weren't there last week, they are there now, third car from the Flushing end (easy only one with the windows open >G<).
I think that they are only supposed to be there when school is in.
WHAT???? School has nothing to do with those cars being in or out of service. They are usually taken out of service during the summer so the TA can brag that they have a 100% fleet of air conditoned cars. Really though, They get HOT. They are a group of 40 single unit, Un-air conditioned cars built in 1964 to make up the eleventh car on Flushing (Worlds Fair) trains. 39 are still in everyday service (9307-9345) And one has been in the museum (9306) since 1976.
I heard that the MTA thought that enough people stop riding the subway when school ends that that's when they schedule the removal of those cars (which should have been scrapped in the 80s!!!). I don't think that a full carload per train stops riding though.
9/9/99
Since Labor day is considered the end of summer,maybe the T.A. uses this date to reintroduce the freonless wonders back after a short hibernation. By the way,since SEPTA's "Almond Joy" cars are not running (as per past posts),the R-33's give those avante garde railfans a rush hearing those roaring axiflow fans and open storm track noise.
Bill Newkirk
While I'm as nostalgic as the next railfan about the subway system of the past, open storm doors and roarng fans in oppressively hot subway tunnels is something I'd rather not re-live.
LOL
AMEN!!! The R-33 should have had all their propulsion equipment removed and become trailers to fit the A/C, or they should have suffered their HORRIBLE DEATH back in the 80s. Except for the museum car. Single cars are great for the museum and work service and all.
Last evening, on the way home, I saw a #3 train with a westchester yard (I think) R62A. It was from a different number series, and had a yellow stripe as opposed to the blue stripe with the orange diamond. It was car #1917, and when I saw it it was third from the north on a S/B train.
I thought that things were mostly tight only on the B division..
That is because not long ago Westchester gave a number of R62As (#1901 to #1925 (?), excluding #1909 [Wrecked in '96]), and that control of GCT "S" was transferred over to Livonia, probably because the #6 is linking its R62As into five car sets. Does anyone have the exact number of R62As sent over into Livonia from Pelham (I think 24, because I did see a #1922 running on the 6 with a yellow stripe as late as Sep '98)???
They only gave up Cars 1901 to 1915. 1916 to 1925 where always on the No.3 Line.
[ They only gave up Cars 1901 to 1915. 1916 to 1925 where always on the
No.3 Line. ]
Then why do they have yellow stripes?
Ok I'll double check but I know I seen 1921 in a blue strip.
It's entirely possible they haven't gotten round to changing them yet.
Wayne
Hi folks, The correct amount of 1900s were from pelhams R62A roster was this: 1651-1919. 1900-1919 were on the 6 line. for 4 years. 1920 and up stayed on the 3 line. 1916-1919 went back to the 3 last year. and 1901-1915 went back in july. Excluding 1900 and 1909.
I talked to an engineer about this GN619 some more, and here's what I found out:
1) Basically, it means they need to operate as if they were in Door Bypass mode. The notice tells them that crews are to _PHYSICALLY_ check each door on the consist (this implies _both sides_!), before leaving each station.
That would certainly explain why 507 was so late on Tuesday morning -- the crews were walking to each door and physically checking that they were fully closed and locked.
I don't think that anyone got dragged to prompt this, but that there were a couple of incidents where trains left the station with a door open.
Also, on my train this morning (509 as usual), there was a door that was spontaneously opening enroute! then, it failed in the opposite way, where although it was closed, it wouldn't clear the door line, so they crew needed to actually go into door bypass mode (after disabling that door).
Last night, half of the door light panels on the outside of the cars were not functioning. (i.e. no indication of open, closed or closing state whatsoever -- dark panels).
What a bunch of junk. And the conductor this morning went over to the computer, to try and figure out what was wrong with the door, and all it could do was spit out some nonsense numerical error code.
Sounds like these trains are running Windows to me.
You know, with all the problems of this new fleet - the LIRR had better solve them *fast*. If anything, these cars sound like a lawsuit waiting to happen.
BTW - Vapor is apparently proud of the door systems on these new cars, enough to brag about it on their web site.
I'm at a loss to understand WHAT is so complex about a door system that a computer is eeded in the first place...
[ You know, with all the problems of this new fleet - the LIRR had
better solve them *fast*. If anything, these cars sound like a lawsuit
waiting to happen. ]
Who would be sueing who? If it was against the LIRR, the only plaintiff that makes sense is a class action by LIRR riders. If that were viable, it would have happened long before this mess.
LIRR could sue Kawasaki, as I assume they're the principal contractor. But that would really only cover actual defects -- the overall design silliness is probably due to LIRR specifications.
[ BTW - Vapor is apparently proud of the door systems on these new cars,
enough to brag about it on their web site. ]
I didn't see any brag -- their opening page shows a R110B, but no other NYC area cars. The LIRR bilevels are listed in "Recent Projects", but it didn't seem like bragging. Anyways, from the way it's listed there, it seems like they are just using vapor's "off the shelf" Electric overhead linear overhead/ sliding pocket door operator.
[ I'm at a loss to understand WHAT is so complex about a door system
that a computer is eeded in the first place... ]
That's the key question -- I would suppose that the Vapor product isn't the problem here. It has "electronic sensors and controls", but no computers. My guess is the main computer on each car is controlling the doorsets, etc.
I think the _idea_ is to have an integrated diagnostic system, where you can go to see what's going on with all systems on the car, from HVAC to lighting to information (PA/displays) to doors to braking and suspension, etc. In practice, these systems always seem to add so much additional and needless complexity that they cause more problems than they solve. In addition, the additional complexity makes it impossible for crews to fix or even understand what the problems are. Let's face it -- if you can't fix a problem by tearing off a piece of an advertisement and sticking it somewhere, it's not gonna be fixed by the crews.
I'm thinking more of this scenario:
Packed train. People standing in the doorway and everything. Doors open. Someone falls out. Gets killed / or looses a limb. That's a few million dollars right there, and probbly pretty easy too cause there's no reason this equipment should be in serivce with these problems.
oh no, my nightmare has come true.
i was sitting on a N train (no specific model, just had a LCD for the side signs) when suddenly the train stopped. I looked up and the LCD had the blue screen of death. The conductor had to reboot the train and i watched as it booted up and it ran the train control program. Then the train started up normally. This is really scary, a train that runs Windows.
Hmm. Sounds distinctly like a trip on LIRR 605 or 660 during the early runs with the FL9ACs. Cars go dark, air shuts off, and we just coast along. . . Conversation between Engineer and Mechanic goes something like "Lost speed again and we're back at idle. Let's try a reboot". A minute or so later engines spin up, lights come on, air comes on, and we start accelerating again.
Come to think of it this was a daily experience. Maybe the crew just didn't like how their session of "Doom" was going. . .
Anyone got a REALLY BIG "Intel Inside' sticker? About 100 of them should cover the new fleet :)
This seems to be very strange, but since I don't ride the #3 often, I haven't seen #1978 (my birth year) yet, but if I see it, I will try to get into that car....
Has anyone ever thought of boarding a car # corresponding to their birth year?
Nick
When the R-46s were first delivered, I used to try to find car 515, my birthdate.
--Mark
[ When the R-46s were first delivered, I used to try to find car 515, my
birthdate. ]
Wow, then you're 1484 years old!
Rim shot!!
Which line could I expect to find #1956 on this fall?
...and I don't look a day over 678, either!! :)
--Mark
Never even crossed my mind. Don't think there are cars with numbers that low anyway!!!
Yes, I did when they were new. When the R-62A's were delivered they pretty much went to the #1 line first then to their current assignments - so the #1 always had the newest R-62A's. I immediately searched for #1965 (my birth year) and with the R-62's I also looked for #1546 which was the number the building that I lived in at the time. It took me a long time to see bus #1546 (1981 GMC RTS - I believe it was at Jamaica depot originally???) because that was a NYCTA bus and I lived in MABSTOA territory.
Wayne
I rode an R-32 whose number is my phone extension, this morning. Does that count?
David
I once operated my Birth Year car 1942. I also operated my son's birth year car 1982 and the most important car of them all car 2000. Unfortanitly car 2000 was my 3th south motor heading to New Lots Ave. I worked on the No.3 Line when I was a rookie. They alway had me work the No.3and No.4 Lines for some reason as a Extra person.
I have seen #1954, the R62A that carries my birth year, several times but have never ridden on it. It always seems to be pulling into Chambers Street when my camera is either out of reach or when I get up to it, it pulls away. Maybe she's shy.
One time I saw the following in one consist: #1954 (my birth year), #1922 (my mother's birth year), #1914 (my father's birth year) and #1972 (the year I graduated from high school). This was while #1901 thru #1920 were still on the #3 (as they currently are). I thought that to be quite a coincidence.
#1942 has some of the loudest wheels I have ever heard on ANY subway car, and #1992's door chime has its tones reversed.
The only ones I have never seen (in the "years-of-our-lives" series) are #1932 and #1936.
Wayne
I haven't heard any reversed door chimes. Strange pitches, yes, but not reversed.
You're lucky! Not only have I never seen 1982 (my birth year), I have never seen 1944, 1951 or 2000 (same order as for you). Will car #2000 be waiting at Times Square to pick up those who hang out there this year? I think they should use a "New Year" car every year. This year, all the cars in the special train should be in the 2000 series and should have temporary LCD displays to show that they are Y2K compliant.
I guess nobody really cares, but I reversed my parents' birth year. My father is the older one.
If my Grandma Edna was still alive (she died in 1995), her car would be over on the #6 line - #1898.
Wayne
How ironic. 1932 and 1936 just happen to be my dad and mom's birth years, respectively. Your grandmother lived to be 97? God bless her. I'd sign a contract for that right now.
Oh, for those of you hoping for a #1909...Too bad you are out of luck...She's probably dead anyway.
By the way 1909 was the first year that our (disliked) Lincoln Head cent/penny came into the world.
Nick C
I hate how coins would have Liberty and Indian Heads, and now they just replaced them with faces just like the bills. BORING. Only the Quarter should maintain the Washington head (and I guess we should keep Jefferson too) because I hope the $1 bill ends circulation.
I am interested in getting a job with revenue dept as collecting agent.
who do I call ? who do I see ? where do I write?
you help will be appriciated Thanks.
Okay normally I don,t belive what what i hear but rather see it. but this is an exception. A frien of mine said she was waiting at 96th st. on west side one late night when a train on th opposite platform rooled in, stopped and then left she described the train as silver with a blue interior . iknow thatis not a 62,62a or a 110a so what is it could it be? some one please help me out on this .
Some of the 110's have blue plastic seats, as well as yellow, red and green.
As far as I know theres no R 142 on the Road. Your friend however may have seen the Track Geometry car which is silver and blue on the outside. Most likely it was heading to 207 Street Yard. Also it is commen to see a TG car on the IRT.
There are no green seats on the R-110a only on the R-110b.
i was riding a brooklyn bound B train earlier this week from w 4thst to 36st in brooklyn when the conductor announced that this B train will make express stops after 9thave (meaning 62nd st was the next stop after 9thave) is this new a b bklyn express?? he also announced there was a b right behind his making all local stops to stilwell and sure enough while i was waiting for my R connection the B pulled into 36st .. it just seemed kind of odd..
Sounds like there was a delay on the B line and they sent it express to make up some lost time. The B was running on the Sea Beach express tracks all this week. I finally got to ride one. I found it funny that it took the same amount of time from Pacific St. on a B SeaBeach exp than it takes a normal N going local.
no, they do this alot for the N where sometimes they will send the 1st N train making 4 stops on the Sea Beach Line (8th Ave, New Utrect, Kings Highway, Stilwell Ave), the 2nd either making NO stops to CI or ALL stops to CI. They have dones this a few times. I was wondering why 8th ave is considered a express stop. does anybody know this?
laterz
blackdevl
I remember working the N one day. My train arrived at Stillwell 10 minutes late. The following train was right behind. The dispatcher gave me a skip: Kings Highway, New Utrect and 59. Then regular.
i also remember on this trip that while travelling over the manhattan bridge the conductor came into my car and opened the windows since the a/c failed.. is this a common problem on these r-68 cars??? i think they are usually dependable...theyre usually like an ice box..
Here's alist of the R-16 replacement roll signs from 1969. First the route then the route color;
SS Shuttle -green
S Special - White
TT West End Local - dark blue
RR Broadway Local - green
RR via Nassau Street - Green
QJ via Nassau Street - black
QB Broadway via Bridge - Red
N Broadway Express - yellow/buff
MM Sixth Av Local - green
M Express via Nassau St - light blue
LL Fourteenth Street Line - black
KK Sixth Av Local - dark blue
JJ Nassau St Local orange
HH Rockaway Local - red
GG Bklyn Queens Local - green
F Express via Sixth Av - violet
EE Broadway Local - orange
E Express via Eighth Av - light blue
D Sixth Av Express - orange
CC Eighth Av Local - green
B via Sixth Avenue - black
AA Eighth Av Local - violet
A Eighth Av Express - dark blue
Say this much for the subway after Chrystie Street, it may have been mixed up but it sure was colorful.
Note that the MM never ran as such. A few trains did run in the late am rush from 57/6 to Metropolitan (Myrtle) but they carried KK signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I loved those colorful signs. Sure made for a more interesting looking map. Why did they stop using those colors? Too confusing?
Much. Every line had it's own color back then (the dark ages)
Now, the lines are grouped into colors by where they run in Manhattan, so all the trunk lines have a single color.
-Hank
Chris; They stopped using different colors for each line when they issued the Diamond Jubilee Edition of the Subway Map in June of 1979.
At that time all lines were colored coded by the Manhattan mainline of operation, with one or two exceptions. This is the system they have today were say all 6 Av trains are orange, all Lexington dark green etc.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have a copy of said route sign. If anyone has a scanner or any other method, I would be happy to send it to them so it could be posted.
I would love to buy that roll sign from you!
E-mail me and let me know your thoughts. It won't come cheap as I have never seen one of these anywhere else.
Thanks,
Charles
We have many of those. I'm interested in the original numbered signs. Very near impossible to get. We have a reproduction of the end signs to compliment the original we have preserved in the archives at TMNY. But we only the end route. All the other signs we have installed currently are B/W from R-32's. They look OK in the destination slot. But we really need BMT numbers for the sides.
There is a BMT number curtain which has been scanned on Joe Korman's website. It has all subway route markings, but none of the el routes.
Fred; aka Mr Sea Beach,while researching an answer to another question I came accross the following item that might be of interest.
On June 14,1934 the experimental five section articulated "Green Hornet" was tested on the express tracks of the Sea Beach Line. It reached a top speed of 54 mph westbound and 60 mph eastbound. In those days "rapid transit" meant something. The R-68's should be ashamed to operate over the same line.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Redbird R33: Larry--if you can you must tell me more about this. Believe it or not I was a Green Hornet fan when I was a kid. I used to see Saturday serials at the movies in the late 40's and early 50's, and I loved the Green Hornet. That a Green Hornet is tied up with my favorite train is really neat. If you have any other info on it, tidbit me a little at a time as so not to take up too much space. How long did the GH run and why did it come to an end? Very fascinating.
The Green Hornet's fate was sealed because it was made largely of aluminum. It was discovered and patriotically dismantled for the war effort during WWII.
At just about the same time the Green Hornet was delivered from Pullman, Budd's entry, popularly called the Zephyr, was delivered.
The Zephyr was Budd's entry to show off the advantages of stainless steel construction.
Despite a flirtation with stainless (the R11) the City turned its back on this useful construction material until the R32, due to its slavish insistence on using The Absolute Low Bidder.
Paul: Thanks. Was the Green Hornet really a deep green and why was it called by that name? Are there any pictures available and if they are can they be found in any large library besides those in NY?
Well, it was before my time and I've never seen a color picture, but I udnerstand it was quite green.
It was nick-named for the radio show--I don't know how careful the BMT was or was not to avoid using the name "officially."
You can see a picture on this site.
You can find many fine pictures of the "Hornet" in James C. Greller's "Subway Cars of the BMT," which Barnes & Noble (www.bn.com) claims to have in stock at the discounted price of $27 and change (plus shipping).
Unless he has changed his views in recent years, I think it would be fair to say that Jimmy Greller shares my view that the effect on progressive transit of the NYC takeover of the BMT in 1940 bore certain similarities to the effect on civilization of the sacking of Rome by the Visigoth Alaric in 410, and his book reflects this view with an excellent and admiring illustrated history of BMT subway car design.
Fred: Here's a short history of the "Green Hornet" rather freely adopted from an article by Bernie Linder in the NYD Bulletin of Apr 95.
The BMT sought to develope lightweight metal trains that could operate both in the subway and on the el structures. The Pullman Company (not yet Pullman-Standard) built the "Green Hornet" aka"The Blimp". Edward G Budd Company of Philadelphia built the "Zephyr." The Clark Equiptment Company built the "Bluebird."
The"Green Hornet" came first arriving at the 38 Street Dock in Brooklyn at 10 PM on May 14,1934 and was towed by loco #6 to Coney Island Yard on May 16,1934. It was 170 feet long and had five sections numbered 7000-8000-9000-8001-7001 and was renumbered 7003A-B-C-B1-A1 in 1937. It had two Westinghouse 70 HP motors on each of the six trucks.
The exterior was in two shades of green with aluminum color roof and underframe. The interior was painted blue with brown leather seats and the ceiling had a cream tint.
The train was exhibited at Coney Island shops on May 24,1934 and at Park Row June 19 and 20,1934.
It entered regular service on the Fulton Street El on July 23,1934 and ran there until unification on June 12,1940 after which it was transfered to the Franklin Av Shuttle.It failed in service on February 6,1941 and was sidelined at Coney Island obstensibly to await couplers to enable it to operate with the Multis. With the War on this was not to be. A war department inspector noticed it there and the unit was removed from the 36 Street Yard on Aug 30 and 31 and Sep 1,1943. It was scrapped in September 1943 and the aluminum was used in airplane construction.
I have seen color photos of both the Zephyr and the Bluebird but not one of the "Green Hornet."
Larry,RedbirdR33
A war department inspector noticed [the Green Hornet] there and the unit was removed from the 36 Street Yard on Aug 30 and 31 and Sep 1,1943. It was scrapped in September 1943 and the aluminum was used in airplane construction.
Amazing to think how far World War II reached into ordinary life that an almost brand-new train could be snapped up by a roving government agent "for the war effort."
Of course, I was born after the war but I still have memories of how fascinated by parents were years later that they could just walk into a grocery store and buy all the butter they wanted.
I recall reading that the government needed rubber so they asked for people to turn in old tires. Overnight tires dissappeared from vacant lots and junkyards. Gasoline rationing also gave new life to many ner do well streetcar and rail lines as well as the excursion boat trade.Meatless Mondays and other privations however were nothing compared to what the boys were going through in the foxholes on Guadacanal.
Its always hard to hear of a classic subway unit being sent to the scrap heap but the Green Hornet went off to do her part to defend her country as did nearly 12 million courageous men and women. A goodly number of whom never did come home.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There's a picture (black & White) of a Green Hornet on pg 65 of "The Subway" by Stan Fischler.
9/11/99
My question on the Green Hornet is has anybody seen a color photograph of this unique trainset ?
Bill Newkirk
I hate to say it, but the term "rapid transit" in New York has almost become an oxymoron.
WILL THE MTA BUILD THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY?
if everyone who rode the Lexington Avenue subway would open their mouths write to their representatives to express their feelings on the subject possibly something will get done. The little bit of apathy shown at MTA meetings by the public won't do squat ..
It isn't just the Lex riders who would benefit from a full system. How about Queens Line to East Midtown and Lower Manhattan riders, who now must transfer or go all the way to 8th Avenue before heading Downtown? Or Brooklyn riders who have to swing all the way across Houston or 14th Steet, before heading north, then back east again?
WILL THE MTA BUILD THE SECOND AVENUE SUBWAY?
9/9/99
Probably when R-68's grow trolley poles !
Bill Newkirk
I just got used to an R17 with a trolley pole, Imagine a R68 at Shoreline... Don't thing the 75footer would make that curve without moving a tree or too...
Brought a great picture to mind....>G<
Ok. I wonder who'd want to bring one of those things up? Having a 67' footer (you know the AB Standard) wasn't exactly easy in getting around parts of Branford. Can you imaging the havoc an R68 would play on Shoreline's Rails??? It sounds like we'll need to ease out the curves at Branford to accomodate an R68 (or any other 75 footer for that matter).
-Stef
Yeah, I was just hanging out on the roof of my favorite redbird on Monday as a matter of fact, chopping off the silver paint. She looks naked without silver paint on the roof. I never imagined sitting next to a trolley pole. The trolley pole is not heavy and I certainly got a thrill holding it in my hand. Now if there had been 600 volts going through it, I'd be fried pork! Isn't that a scary thought?
-Stef
Has the Standard ridden the route at Branford? When I was there (recently) it was just sitting in the back by the buses with no trolley pole on it. I didn't think it was being used yet. Will it be used during the fall in NY weekend??
Not as far as I know,I have never seen it with a pole, you might want to ask Jeff H the same question, I am not as active lately,( stationed in Florida)
It's ironic that the Standard doesn't have a trolley pole yet. BMT Standards were (as far as I can recall) the only NYC subway cars that ever used trolley poles in service, though not 2775.
Are the 5 Standards listed in the nycsubway.org roster the only known cars left? No yard offices, diners, etc.?
I note there's no example of a 2500 series (last ACF with the unusual vents) or a 2800 (only unrebuilt Pressed Steel Standards).
The three I saw on the Coney Isl Tour recently still a lot of work before they go anywhere on their own power.
Mr t__:^)
An R-68 at the Shore Line Trolley Museum? Ugh. I don't think so.
However, for what it is worth, in terms of long-term collections
planning, we have identified the R-62 as a car we'd likely want
to acquire in several decades.
As for AB 2775: It came in the mid-1980s after languishing for
many years in New York. It never had trolley poles, although
some of the 2300s did when they were being tested. In fact, as
far as we can tell, it was never operated as a single car, although
it was delivered to do so (evidence such as double-ended controls
and a replacement tail-light bulb on the "blind" end which was
stamped NYM, and blanked-off wiring for non-MUDC door controls)
The car made, as far as I know, only one trip down the Branford
mainline, on the day of its delivery. The oddball MCM group
under the car was always troublesome, and I believe several
pieces of wood were necessary to coax the car to take power.
The little single-truck Montreal Shunter was used as the Tower
of Power, believe it or not.
2775 will not be used in the Autumn in New York event this year,
although if visitors wish to view the interior of the car, we
will have tour guides available to show it. Ditto for the SI car.
Well Jeff, let me say this: I can recall no time where the AB has ridden the entire line. My mentor, Jeff H., had a bit to say about the AB. It actually operated under it's own power, from the time it was delivered to Branford (about 1980). The car, which had no pole to take power, was wired to a work car which supplied 600 volts to get it to roll. It hasn't rolled much since then. It's chances of rolling under it's own power is slim at this point since the car's traction motors were flooded back in 1992. I don't know if and when the AB will get it's mechanical repairs.
So the answer to your question is the car won't be rolling for Autumn in NY event.
-Stef
2775 does have a fresh coat of paint on it, although I saw some perforation in a few spots back in July of 1995.
Well, the car needs some cosmetic work again since the side of the car body is cracking. Time to get out the bondo again!!!!
The car won't be truly protected from the elements until she's gets a spot on the inside of a barn.
-Stef
[ I just got used to an R17 with a trolley pole, Imagine a R68 at
Shoreline... Don't thing the 75footer would make that curve without
moving a tree or too... ]
Hey, if the TA retires cares based solely on MDBF, the 68's can be the first to go..
I think they'd go down the line OK (I think that's the curve you're talking about), but I think that the only barn that they could get into (without involving jacks and/or cranes) would be the Quonset barn, #1 (the middle track, which is usually empty, and the first part of the barn tours.).
I can see the tours now: This car was built in 1989 for the NYC subway system, by a group of French railcar manufacturing concerns. They ran for only 15 years, because they were so unreliable. During their tenure, they earned the nicknames "Dumb Blond", and "Les ****cans" among new yorkers.
hehe..
Not to mention slowpokes, hippos, beached whales, etc.
When pigs fly!
Its time to show up, boys. Everyone wants this thing. My presence is subject to wife and children, but I'll try to be there this Wednesday. Never, ever to people who are in FAVOR of something show up at a public hearing. Why not a first time? I say do the orignial deal, LIRR to GCT, and a full length Second Ave with connections to Brooklyn, the Bronx and Queens.
Larry, Could you please repeat the time & place for the Wed. hearing ?
I'll E-mail from the office tomarrow (kid's first day of school today), but it starts Wednesday @ 6 p.m. with the list of commentors closed at 8 p.m. I believe it is up at MTA headquarters.
The public hearing starts at 6:00 p.m., with the speaking list closed at 8:00 p.m., at 347 Madison Avenue, 6th Floor (MTA Headquarters).
Thanks for the f/u Larry.
Mr t__:^)
I thought about showing up with presentation boards showing NYC's low level of transportation spending and high taxes, combined with the high spending on the two winners. But I found out that printing graphs at a reasonable size costs $90 a pop. I'll ask my wife if I can go, and my boss if I can use the presentation boards I produced for the office, but I doubt he'll let me use them to express my own opinion.
9/9/99
A motorman (oops! I mean train operator) friend of mine told me there is one train of R-40 slants on the D. He says because of a car shortage one train is borrowed off the Q , runs Saturday and Sunday and early Monday returns to the Q. Is the car shortage cause by the
R-68 unitizing program ?
Bill Newkirk
P.S. A railfan riding a slant 40 (D) sits down at Concurse-205th St looking like Johnny Weismuller and exits at Coney Island/Stillwell looking like the hunchback of Notre Dame !! Unique seats !!
And a TRUE railfan only knows one place in a Slant R40 and that is at the front window. No need to sit down with THAT picture window.
Wayne
When they 1rst came out in the late 60's the only real place to be on them was between cars with that long walkway with the railing but then they started locking the doors. Their railfan window is great for toddlers. The best railfan window of course was on the standards 'cause they opened and the wind was like being on a motorcycle
I have lived 50+ years in Sheepshead Bay on the
Brighton Line. I rode the standards regularly, but
it's funny that I don't remember them so much as
front window heaven. As a front window rider, I
remember more the IRT's 7000 series cars as coming
close to blowing my head off my shoulders. But
while I'm writing this, I also remember riding
between Prospect Park and Seventh Avenue on the
Brighton Line many times with the window down, and
having to watch out for the dripping water not far
out of Prospect Park. It's funny I don't associate
that memory with the Standards. I really liked the
Triplexes, but at that moment I'm not sure if they
had windows that dropped on the storm door.
I really liked the Triplexes, but at that moment I'm not sure if they had windows that dropped on the storm door.
They do. Rode many a Nostalgia Train of Triplexes with the front window open, the steel dust and deafening whistle notwithstanding.
--Mark
Thanks for the post, Mark. I was just going through the Triplex pictures on this website, trying to see if the windows dropped. Like you say they do. Now it seems more likely that I was fresh airing it on the good old Brighton Express, which if I remember had red and green marker lights. The Standards on the Brighton were local, and they never got up enough speed to clog my ears, except maybe between the Park and 7th Ave. If you weren't expecting the motorman to blow the whistle and you had your head out the window, I think I can remember banging on the door as I instinctively pull my head back. Nothing like breathing in a little steel dust, you wouldn't need to take any iron supplements. I think that there was a doctor in Brooklyn who recommended that his anemic patients ride the front car with window down to build up their blood. Again thanks.
I'll second that.
Perhaps on the weekends there is one more put in from Stillwell than on weekdays (hence the need to borrow one trainset) and less put ins from the Concourse. The schedule make up can be quirky at times!
Possible scenarios:
They might be assigned #s somewhere in the 3000s
(My guess is either 3010 to 3221 or thereabouts, them old R10 numbers)
They can also take over the #s taken by pre-GOH R44s and R46s (that is, we might see three-digit car numbers once again)
A third, but quite unlikely scenario is that they get assigned numbers taken by the old R11/34s and R27s (8011 to 8222)
All three scenarios assume that none of the Redbirds would have retired by the time the R143 contract is being constructed.
My bet is for scenario #1 (old R10 numbers)
Any other possible scenarios???
Nick C.
I'd go with the old R10 numbers. The numbers from 8010 on will probably be used by the new IRT R142's.
The IRT R142s will use numbers from 6301 to 7760 or so, which had been determined a while ago.
So there exists a very small chance that 8011 and up could be used by the new Div B R143s.
Nick C.
I'd still bet on them using the old r10 numbers.
As posted earlier, the R142s will wear former R16, R17, MS, R21 and R22 numbers. That's the largest contiguous block of retired numbers.
If they're going to 8000s with the R143, they may start with a fresh series (i.e. 8100), or continue the tradition started with the R27s - start them with 8020.
Wayne
[They can also take over the #s taken by pre-GOH R44s and R46s (that is, we might see three-digit car numbers once again)]
This is what I heard they renumbered those cars for in the first place.
OK, the "L" is going to get the R143s....but there is an entry that the "M" line will also get R143s in their line when they come.
The "M" getting the R143s is according to JoeKorNer's page....
Here is what I think might happen...
#1 Slant R40s will likely to go to Jamaica, that is, if they last this long. Very likely R40s making a comeback will be seeing their last hurrah on the E, F, G, Q and R lines...but be forewarned that the N might also receive some amount of R42s. Note: quite interesting to see R40s and R46s running on the same line.
P.S. Has the G or R ever seen an R40 or R42 in service on either line???
#2 Some R42s may go to Jamaica, otherwise the J, M, Z will have the majority of the R42s...unless they decide to give some number of the R42s to the (heaven forbid) N line.
Other scenarios are certainly possible.
Nick C.
My bet is the R40 slants and R40M's will go to Coney Island to supplement whatever new train serves 63rd St. and the Eastern division will be exclusively R143 and R42.
According to a Bulletin from a couple of years ago, the N would get R-42's.
In response to the {P.S.} the "G" saw R40Ms when first delivered, the #4500-series cars, which then had brake test numbers (CBxx, ASxx).
The "RR" had R42s when first delivered. They got the 4550-4599 cars first (these were subsequently transferred to the "N"), then they got #4808-4849, which remained there for some time.
Wayne
The R-42s were spread around when they arrived so that as many routes as possible would have at least a few air conditioned trains.
Of course, R-42s 4572 and 4573 were immortalized in The French Connection with their N signs.
I rode on a couple of N trains of R-42s in July of 1971. Those suckers could MOVE!!
They still can, when liberated from the curve plagued eastern division BMT lines.
What are brake test numbers? I have sen pictures with such number plates, but never knew what they meant.
These numbers were seen on R36 Mainline cars (mostly on the #1) and also the R40Ms, before they received their permanent numbers in 1970. They were two letters and two numbers: ASxx, CBxx etc. I believe they did this to distinguish them from other equipment which was not undergoing brake tests. I distinctly remember riding on AS19 back on November 4, 1969, then in service on the "EE".
I show the following IND Brake Test numbers in my collection:
(grouped by the line where I first saw them)
EE's
AS10, AS11
CB22, CB23 (4520-4521)
CB20, CB21 (4518-4519)
CB32, CB33 (4530-4531)
CB34, CB35 (4532-4533)
AS20, AS21
AS24, AS25
GG's
AS22, AS23
AS16, AS17
AS18, AS19
CB24, CB25 (4522-4523)
Wayne
I know this is not about the NYC Subway but in the NY Post Friday Sept. 10, page 30, is a article about Restaurateur Matthew Kenney is finally opening his new restaurant Metrazur in Grand Central Terminal by Mid-November. The restaurant will be across from Mike Jordan's steakhouse.
Let's not drool, but your most excellent thoughts on this article most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
9/10/99
Does anybody out there know when the LIRR Port Jeff line was electrified from Mineola to Hicksville and Hicksville to Huntington ?
Bill Newkirk
I think it was in the early 70's. I remember it well, I just don't remember the dates!!
I bet Ron Ziel would know the answer to that if someone knows how to contact him. As an alternative try calling the LIRR in Jamaica or checking the new website lirrhistory.com
[ I bet Ron Ziel would know the answer to that if someone knows how to
contact him. As an alternative try calling the LIRR in Jamaica or
checking the new website lirrhistory.com ]
Ron Ziel is listed in the white pages. I called him once, because I'm looking to see how I can find two of his books, the ones on the Electric and Diesel eras (Both out of print, only the Steam-centric ones are actually available). Anyways, he called me back from his bed in the hospital(!) (he had some circulatory problem in a leg). He attends many of the RR bazarrs in the area, selling his books and whatnot.
Last I was there, The Hobby Shop in Raleigh, North Carolina had several copies of one of Ron's LIRR books - don't remember which one, but I think it may have been the diesel book. You might try giving them a call at (919) 833-1123. They've got a tremendous collection of out-of-print books thanks to an overzealous employee who worked there for a number of years and ordered half a dozen copies of everything!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The LIRR electrification to Huntington opened in October 1970. Remember it well!
October 1970 is the date the M1s first travelled east of Nassau Tower on the Main Line. I remember it well!
Is that the tower in Mineola?
[Is Nassau Tower the tower in Mineola?]
Yes.
9/11/99
Hey Pete! Wasn't Nassau tower originally named "Fair" tower for the Mineola Fair ?
Bill Newkirk
Sure is! right where the Oyster Bay line breaks off with the main. Wasn't Landia closed around that time? (though you can still get scheduling info on it :) i seem to recall seeing pictures somewhere of an ERA fantrip for the double deckers around that time that went through there.
Hey Andy - do you know if the LIRR has any technical info on the MP-54s, as I'm *still* looking for info on them!!! Thanks :)
[ Hey Andy - do you know if the LIRR has any technical info on the
MP-54s, as I'm *still* looking for info on them!!! Thanks :) ]
Phillip,
Why don't you call the PR people and ask? While you're at it, you might want to ask them if they could give you some of their inventory of NP door control hardware -- The stuff on the current push-pull cars seems like it is the same as I saw on the MP54. Surely they aren't using it anymore. I was going to actually see if I could get it for the cars, but maybe it'd be easier for you, since you are more of a representative of where the car actually is (I could pick it up if you made arrangements).
I called the LIRR once. The person I got wasn't aware that there WERE electrics before the M-1s!!!!
If anyone knows a good set of pointers - I'm willing to try. Erik suggested just going to morris park myself, but I'm stuck up here in Hartford for the next few months :(
[ If anyone knows a good set of pointers - I'm willing to try. Erik
suggested just going to morris park myself, but I'm stuck up here in
Hartford for the next few months :( ]
Maybe I'll give that a try for you. It's be interesting to visit there anyways, and this would give me an excuse to walk in and say something other than "duh, just looking" :)
Heh - hold on a day or two though - I've managed to get as far as car Engineering - I'm waiting for a call back (believe it or not, the LIRR is pretty good at calling you back if you leave a message!)
Maybe they'll go looking if a couple dozen people show up at various times requesting it? >:)
[ Heh - hold on a day or two though - I've managed to get as far as car
Engineering - I'm waiting for a call back (believe it or not, the LIRR
is pretty good at calling you back if you leave a message!) ]
I've found that the "staff" of the Public relations dept will definately follow good office practices, and not lost your message and make sure to follow up on it. Of course, they won't work very hard to track something down -- the easiest answer they can get, they'll return -- usually that's "no". If you talk to higher-ups, they seem to be able to make more things happen, but you'll have to nidge them yourself. I think the guy I spoke to last time I wanted something was Bill Butvick.
Anyways, record what you do, so you'll have names and times of calls for later, and if you (or someone else) goes down there, they'll have names to rattle off.
It's a shame that the LIRR doesn't give a shirt about preservation. The RR has had a very interesting and unusual history, but most of it is all gone. No more MP-42's or any of the early electric stuff no MP-72's, save the trailers that are around (luckily, I think that both Loco 35 group and RMLI will get two push-pull coaches each, but I think that the remaining P72's were all originally trailers. I haven't seen any cars which had any indication of a former life at the head of a train.
For some,unknown reason, the LIRR seems to have forgotten they existed before 1970.
Heres a good one folks: Mr Peabody (and Boy Sherman..) has offered you the use of his WABAC Machine, letting you go back to anytime in NYC history. What time do you go to and why.. the only limitations are those of the SubTalk board. Also, you can only go for three days...
I would probably go back to some time in the early fall of 1939....
A) get to go to the 1939 Worlds Fair ( on the IND Worlds Fair line!) for one day
B) Would be able to ride almost the entire subway/el network at its pre-unification peak (except for the Sixth Ave el..oh well...) Just think...Standards...Triplexs on the Brighton...MultiSections on the Canarise-14th st line...The Q units just after their re-building...open gate cars all over the place...TROLLEYS all over the place...the IRT Worlds Fair cars are brand new...the Green Hornet is running...the Zephyr is running...geez...maybe FOUR days....maybe a quick trip down the Pennsy main to watch GG-1s and MP-54s zipping by..."black cars" on the H&M 33rd st trains....K-4s carding out of Exchange Place....hmmmmm...maybe a WEEK..........
Where can I pitch in on WABAC machine development? ;)
But - How could you possibly forget the Lacawanna's 3kv system, and THE NEW HAVEN LINE!!!! Nevermind NY Central electric ops. Oh, and Sunnyside to catch the DD-1, and B-1, and oddballs that were around then.
OOPS! Theres just so much to remember what was around at that time.....
Besides being able to ride the Standards and Triplexes again, I'd love to be able to use one of the vending machines (IND division) to buy a SkyBar......
Hey McNits: Here's one for you. I miss those Dentyne and Chiclets gum machines attached the posts in the subways. The gum for some reason always tasted sweeter from those machines. (my imagination for sure). I actually looked for those and found none. They are long gone but I remember them while waiting for the Sea Beach at 42nd or 34th Street when I transferred from the 4th Ave Local to my favorite train.
Sea Beach Man: you jogged my memory a lot when you mentioned the Chiclets/Dentyne gum machines on the subway posts---there was something slightly unusual that I can't recall exactly. Was the coin slot on an angle or something---( I think the price was less than a nickel); and wasn't it like a mini-pack---one or two pieces? Boy, you'ver really brought me back!
You got two Chiclets in a little box for a penny. I don't know about the Dentyne because I never bought it. The best ones were the peanut machines where you got a small handfull of loose peanuts for a penny, and they were good peanuts.
And the Hershey's mini-bar machines. William Ronan had them taken out around 1971 because he saw some wrappers thrown on the ground and didn't want trash in his subway. This happened just about the same time the MTA began ignoring the graffiti problem on the trains (they were already avoiding preventive maintenance, which helped make the 70s and early 80s the dark ages for the system)
Karl B: You know you are right. I just told McNits that I thought it was two cents for the Chiclets, but now I remeber it was a penny. But I think you are wrong about the peanuts or I just got a bad pack. Once when were waiting for the Brighton Express to take us to Prospect Park Station for a Dodger game at Ebbets Field, my Dad tried to get us in the mood by buying some peanuts from one of those machines. They tasted rotten and I never bought them again down there. One boy's heaven is another boy's poison. I wonder if I just got a rotten bag.
Have a good one.
The peanuts I was referring to were loose. They were redskin peanuts that were small and oval shaped. You put your penny in, held your hand under the chute, and slid the lever from right to left. About two dozen peanuts would fall into the palm of your hand. Most of the time I used the machines on the Eastern Parkway-Broadway Junction el station, but I saw the machines at other stations as well. The time period was late 1940's and early 1950's. This may be too long ago for most sub-talkers.
You must have been a Brooklyn Dodger fan, do you remember Eddie Miksis?
Miksis scored the winning run when Cookie Lavagetto broke up Floyd Bevens' bid for a no-hitter in the 1947 World Series, IIRC.
BTW, I'm sure you heard Pee Wee Reese died recently.
Steve B- 8AVEXP: Only a real baseball fan would know that Miksis scored the winning run in the 4th game of the l947 Series. Who did Lavagetto pich hit for? See of you know it. Riding tbe Brighton Express to Prospect Park Station enroute to a ball game---Heaven.
Lavagetto pinch hit for Eddie Stanky. I have a record of the Miracle Mets which features a few clips from past games in New York, and Red Barber's call of that moment was one of them.
Taking the 7 out to Shea did it for me.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Bingo. You're a baseball fan. Now get out and go to some games. Larry Walker, you've got to like him. The Rockies need all kinds of pitching, that;s their problem.
IMHO, the Rockies need a whole new team, not just a pitching staff. They've been underachievers. I suppose it might be a tad easier to get tickets now, since they're not selling out every game the way they were when Coors Field first opened.
I'm glad to hear that someone else remembers the name Miksis. Can you believe he was my favorite player. I have no explanation as to why I chose to follow the career of a utility infielder. I was shattered when #34 was one of the eight players involved in the trade with the Cubs in '51.
I did hear about Pee Wee. His passing received a lot of news coverage in this area even though we live in Oriole country.
Did you know that Miksis finished his career with the Orioles, I think it was 1958 or 59.
Karl B: Was I ever a Brooklyn Dodgers Fan. Eddie Miksis was a slug, couldn't hit a lick and was traded to the Cubs in June, 1951 for Wayne Terwilliger as part of an 8-man trade that brought Andy Pafko to Brooklyn. The machine I was talking about was located at Times Square where we changed trains. It was a package, but maybe I would have been better served it I got them the way you did. I never liked peanuts after that.
A lot of people were upset when Miksis, Hermanski, Edwards and Hatten went to the Cubs. Others were thrilled that Pafko was coming to the Dodgers. It was as if Pafko would make the Dodgers into a championship team. The funny thing was that in a year and a half Pafko moved on to the Braves. Miksis got a lot more playing time in Chicago than he ever did in Brooklyn.
I'll bet there is a law now that loose peanuts can't be sold to the public. One penny would probably buy one peanut today. I still remember them tasting very good.
Karl B. When we got Pafko in June of '51, going to Ebbets Field was a pleasure, and even though Pafko didn't do that well for us, we increased our lead to 13-and a half games by August 11 of that year. I mean were cleaning everyone's clock. We had beaten the Giants 12 of 15 games up to August 13, then the roof fell in. The Giants won 37 of 44 to force a playoff, and we just stopped hitting. I mean just stopped hitting. It just happened that way. What a miserable experience that was, and going to Ebbets Field at the end of that year was not an enjoyable. The Brighton seemed slower, too.
I only ever got to three games at Ebbets field, and they were all before the big trade. I had to rely on the descriptions of Red Barber and Connie Desmond over the radio. We finally got TV in '52. Remember, only one camera, and that was behind home plate.
Karl: Why not more than three? Did you live too far away, or were you too young--or were you a Giants fan?
Fred,
I was definately a Dodger fan, but most of all I was an Eddie Miksis fan. The Giants were the enemy. Age had a lot to do with it. I was too young to go by myself, then in 1949 I got a paper route delivering the Long Island Press after school. The next summer I got a second job working in the neighborhood candy store. There never seemed to be enough time. After Miksis was traded in 1951 it just didn't seem to be that important anymore.
Karl: You must have been a fanatic Eddie Miksis fan not to care about the Dodgers after he was traded. I always believed he was a scrub and could't hit a lick. However, I had a strong feeling for Marvin Rackley who had a pretty good 1948 but faded fast thereafter. My two favorites in 1946 and 1947 when I was a six and seven year little fanatic were Dixie Walker and Eddie Stanky. Both were traded and gone by 1948 and I was bummed out. My father told me not to worry. There were some new guys on the block who would make me forget about them. Guys by the name of Hodges, Campanella, Snider, Erskine, not to mention Reese, Robinson and Furillo. He was right. They became a great team and the most beloved baseball club in history.
I live in Oriole country now and my wife is a loyal fan. She is even getting me interested to an extent. History is repeating itself however in that my favorite player now is Jeff Reboulet. I think the main reason I go to games is to ride the Metro into Baltimore.
IIRC, Dixie Walker was traded because he didn't want to play alongside Jackie Robinson. Stanky was sold to the Braves after Durocher sided with him during a contract dispute with Branch Rickey. Durocher said that was the beginning of the end of his Dodger tenure.
BTW, Fred, did you have any idea when you left New York that the Dodgers would win the World Series the following year?
Steve B-8AVEXP: Believe it or not, I told my father that when we leave New York, "You watch, the Dodgers will finally go all the way." I did know it, I felt it, and I regretted not being there when it happened. To make matters worse, when October 4, 1955 dawned, I knew that Johnny Podres was going to win because he had always pitched well against the Yankees in Spring Training. My father, however, would not let me stay home from school and watch the game. Between Snack Period (10 minutes) and lunch (35 minutes) I listened to the game. Toward the end of fourth period I was in English class when I saw a guy I know pass by. I yelled out the window and asked what happened. He told me the Dodgers just won. I went nuts and shook up the whole class. Since they knew how much it meant to me, they shared my joy and even the teacher smiled. As much as I support the Mets, I will never love another sports team like I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers. The Bums, Coney Island and the Sea Beach were my childhood passions.
When the Mets made it to the World Series in 1969, our school principal let it be known that we weren't allowed to bring radios and that they would keep us informed as to game scores. Only one announcement was made, during Game 4. I saw the ninth inning of Game 5, and still remember Curt Gowdy proclaiming, "..and the Mets are the world champions!" when Cleon Jones put away Davey Johnson's fly ball.
Has it really been 30 years?
An interesting parallel occurred in my life: we moved from New Jersey to Connecticut after my sophomore year in high school, and that fall, my old high school football team went undefeated.
Steve: And how did your new school do? And how many different places have you lived? You're in Colorado now, right? Maybe the Beach Boys had you in mind when they recorded "Round, Round, I Get Around". The Mets play the Braves six times in the next two weeks and I'll be glued to my TV set. Woe to anyone who disturbs me.
Well, Cheshire High won three straight state football titles earlier this decade; their former coach is now an assistant at Notre Dame. The coach at Syracuse, Paul Pasqualoni, is a Cheshire grad. I graduated with a brother of his, or however they might be related.
As for where I've lived, here's a brief summary:
Born in South Bend, Indiana. Notre Dame fan for life.
Moved to New Jersey at age 10. Became lifelong subway buff and Met fan.
Moved to Connecticut at age 16. Finished high school and college.
Came out to Colorado 19 years ago on Sept. 16. Been here ever since.
I wish you had posted that eight months ago. I told the S-gauge rapid-transit model builder that he would be hearing from someone from either Indiana, New Jersey or Colorado. By the way, I'm sure you are a member, Are you coming to the big train show in York in mid-October?
I am a TCA member, yes. Unfortunately, I will not be going to York. Someday maybe.
Have you ever been to one of those shows?
We have a few TCA-sponsored meets in Denver during the year, and I try to attend them when I can. No, I haven't made it out to York yet. I should point out that I joined TCA only two years ago after putting it off for, oh, about 13-14 years.
I'm not trying to drum up business for it, it's just that it's supposed to be the largest train show in the world. I know that I have never seen a bigger show anywhere. I think that they have eight buildings full of tableholders now.
Yes, the York meet is one of the biggest, if not THE biggest. You're probably right about all those buildings.
But they don't have much other than LionSmell and other stuff that runs on track with the third rail in the wrong place!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm in agreement that most of it is, but the percentage seems to be going down. It seems to me that there is more and more HO at each meet.
Still no good for me - I'm in N.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're right, there is very little N. It's there, but not much. Maybe you could attend just for the sociability. Along with the wheeler-dealers, there are also some really nice people who attend the meet.
I've seen live catenary in N but not third rail. "N Scale" magazine had a good article about doing catenary a while back. If anyone's interested email me and I'll look up the issue..
-Dave
There's actually a series - five or six issues worth - on its construction. East Penn's is trolley wire, and of course there's NCat. One of the NCat guys has actually constructed 12 feet of module using live third rail just to prove it can be done, but the tolerances are so critical that even the relatively slight changes temperature and humidity in the extremely well climate-controlled exhibition room played havoc with it, as did anyone walking heavily enough to vibrate the modules. And the only way he was able to solve the problem of crossing from one module to the next was to alternate the third rail from one side of the track to the other - that way he had no joints to worry about.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm into American Flyer S gauge all the way. Mostly Gilbert, with some Lionel Flyer thrown in.
If you're into truly miniscule operations, there's always Z scale.
I've got some of that too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But they don't have much other than LionSmell and other stuff that runs on track with the third rail in the wrong place!
[stupid question] Are there any model systems with the third rail in the right place? I've seen live catenery in G scale, but I've never seen live third rail at any scale below prototype.
Yes, there are, although the third rail wasn't quite what you would think! Back in the early days of scale railroading (as opposed to tinplate) many modelers ran with outside third rail for power pickup, primarily on 1:48 scale (true O) but also on HO. This avoided the need for insulated axles and also permitted the modification of tinplate equipment to scale flange depth for running on scale rail. It gave a "different" look to the layout, although I can't say that it was significantly more prototypical; ever see a Pennsy M1a with third rail shoes?
And, by the way, the East Penn Traction Club, of which I am a member, runs from the wire in G, O, HO, and N scales.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you ever get to York, look me up, and we can hash out the finer points of the R-10's.
It's a deal.
Steve: What no New York? As for Notre Dame, as long as Davie is the coach I want nothing to do with them. I had him pegged as a loser the first time I saw his picture. I waS ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. I have a visceral dislike for that man.
I respect your opinion. My feeling is that Davie is better than Gerry Faust, who was a total wuss. Maybe not much better, but better. My father remembers Joe Kuharich and his "you win some, you lose some" attitude. At Notre Dame, it's been "win or else".
It would be nice if winning football games were as easy as restoring field shunting on a subway car - to keep this on topic.
Then I won't ask what your reaction is whenever they play Russ Hodges' call of Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world". I feel the same way whenever they replay Anthony Davis running back the second half kickoff for a touchdown in the 1974 USC-Notre Dame game. It's sickening.
Bob Murphy's call of the game-ending double play which clinched the Eastern Division title for the Mets in 1969 is a much more pleasant recollection.
Steve B-8AVEXP: I'm a big Mets fan now, and they just cleaned up on the Dodgers. You ought to hear all the barfing and moaning by the Dodger fans out here. I think it's funny as hell.
The Mets just took two out of three from the Rockies here in Denver. The big news here is that Jim Leyland is leaving at the end of the season, saying he's burned out. I think if Leo Durocher (what did you think of him, BTW) were to take over the Rockies, he'd say to Jerry McMorris, "Back up the truck."
I saw the Mets a few times at Mile High Stadium, Mets garb and all, but have not been to Coors Field yet. The strike of five years ago left a bad taste in my mouth.
Steve B-8AVEXP: Come on Steve. Baseball is back in full force. You are missing out and if you're a Mets fan like you say, you have got to see that infield of theirs. It could be the best in history. Sea Beach man is not giving up on colleague who gave me my website nickmame.
Well, IIRC, I dubbed you Mr. Sea Beach, but that's OK. Same difference. I will say that if I happen to be in New York when the Mets are in town, and this has happened on a couple of occasions, I'll hop on a 7 out to Shea and buy a ticket. At least I know I'm in friendly territory at Shea. Looing back to when I did go to Mile High, I didn't get too much grief from anyone. Once, when the Mets were staging a rally, I stood up and cheered, then someone asked, "Who are you rooting for?" I pointed to the NY on my cap.
Don't get me wrong - I will NEVER root against the Mets!
Steve B-8AVEXP: Can you please tell me what IIRC stands for. I'm stumped. But as far as the Mets go, good show. I went to Shea for four games while I was in New York last August and had a blast. The fans were great, the food good, and the games better. Make sure you get to see the Mets either at Coors or when you go East. Take care.
I hope Steve doesn't mind me jumping in here even though I was a fanatical Miksis fan.
IIRC If I recall correctly
Karl B: You never finished your note telling me what IIRC stands for. You finished in mid-sentence. Come on, I'm dieing to know.
You're kidding, aren't you....
IIRC stands for "If I recall correctly"
Karl B: Sorry I wasn't kidding. I'm still new to some of the subway website lingo-----but I learn fast. Chao
It's general internet lingo, not just subway website lingo. Don't be surprised if you see it elsewhere. Or IMHO (In my Humble Opinion), BTW (By The Way) or NIMBY (Not In My Backyard) there are others, but I can't recall any now.
Eugenius: I'm writing them down now.
NIMBY is not an internet term. It has been used a long time before the internet. Other internet terms are LOL-laughing out loudLMAO-laughing my a$$ off OMG-oh my goshROFLMAO-rolling on the floor laughing my a$$ off BTW,I was stumped by IIRC but was afraid to ask!!
Yeah, those are the ones I forgot (how could I have forgotten LOL?!?). Of course, I never heard of OMG.
"IIRC if I recall correctly"
"You never finished your note telling me what IIRC stands for. You finished in mid-sentence."
Why does this remind me of the immortal exchange "Who's on first?" "That's right." Etcetera. :^)
If you liked "Who's On First" you'll love these:
wav#1
wav#2
wav#3
"I'll bet there is a law now that loose peanuts can't be sold to the public."
I'll take that bet. While I can't be sure about New York, here in Illinois I've seen several gumball-type machines, with all the appropriate tax stickers, that dispense a fairly large handful of loose peanuts. Not on the CTA, mind you, but in the bank of machines selling gumballs and plastic crap near the exits of many supermarkets.
"One penny would probably buy one peanut today."
That's true. 20-25 peanuts for a quarter.
I left New York more than forty years ago, but it is my understanding that the vending machines that were mounted on the support posts right on the platforms are long gone. I guess if they were still there they would probably be 25 or 50 cents instead of a penny.
My memory has faded with time as to what those peanuts looked like, but years ago I was never able to find a commercially packaged peanut that seemed to be the same. It's ridiculous to think that the only place that type of peanut could be purchased was in a subway vending machine.
9/16/99
Karl B.
Ever see the movie "Somebody up there likes me"? This movie profiling the life and times of Rocky Graziano had a couple of scenes shot in the BMT Chambers St. station. In one scene Paul Newman (Rocky) and Sal Mineo are talking and there is a peanut vending machine attached to a column as you described. Funny,the station sign (Chambers) was covered and for the sake of the movie was 14th St! Another great scene is a train of B-types entering the station (probably the middle tracks) and when stopping they enter car #2354. Find this movie,the subway scenes are worth the price. (b&w 1955)
Bill Newkirk
Bill and Karl: I saw that movie two weeks ago while on vacation. I saw the peanut machine, and the gum machine that Paul (Rocky) jimmied for some loose change. My question is what that B train the West End, the Brighton local or the 4th ave local. I know it wasn't the Sea Beach because when I moved from NY in 1954 the only Sea Beach trains were the D-type triplexes.
B-types is another term for the BMT standards, along with ABs. Specifically, B units were 3-car motorized units permanently coupled together. There were other designations as well: A units were single cars; BX units were 3-car sets with a motorless trailer in the middle.
The Triplexes also ran on the Brighton. They ended their careers (prematurely, IMHO) on the West End in 1965.
Steve: Did they end for my Sea Beach the same year. I think I saw a picture on a Triplex Sea Beach dated May 2, 1964 at 8th Ave. Is that around the time the SB stopped carrying the #4 designation? Let me know.
Can't say for sure. The arrival of the R-32s signaled the beginning of the end for the Triplexes. The first R-32s were assigned to the Q/Brighton Express. My guess is that the Sea Beach was next. At any rate, the Triplexes spent their final days on the West End.
As I've said in earlier threads, it was one thing to put the R-16s out of their misery, as they were in sad shape towards the end of their careers. Retiring the Triplexes when they were still in great shape was a huge mistake, IMHO. Sending them to slaughter is the way I like to put it. They would have laughed in the face of deferred maintenance.
Bill Newkirk, (once again)
Thanks for the hint about "Somebody Up There Likes Me". I have never seen the movie. I am an old movie fan and will make it a point to see it. In addition to the peanut vending machine I'm sure I'll enjoy seeing 2354 as well. My wife will probably never let me forget I wanted to see a movie because of a vending machine.
Karl B
9/16/99
Karl,
Rent or buy the movie (considering it out on tape),you'll be rewinding that VCR to check out those subway scenes studying Chambers and the Standards. Yes!,those old incandescent station lights are lit.
Bill Mangahas
Depends on where you are. When I'm back home in North Carolina I can get a handful of peanuts or loose candy a lot of places. Come to think of it, the Super Foodtown in Ocean Township, NJ (where I shop on a very occasional basis - they have the best selection and prices right before Pesach but otherwise there's no real reason to go there) also has machines where you can get a handful of Mike & Ike or other candies. And there are machines in Seaview Square Mall (Ocean Twp.) too. But they're a quarter now!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Even in my local supermarket I can scoop out the quantity of peanuts still in the shell to purchase the amount I want. It was those fascinating little redskin peanuts in the vending machines that I have been unable to find. I tried a similar nut sold by Planters in cans some years ago but the taste was not the same, at least if I can rely on my memory.
McNits: The coin slot was at an angle and that was to keep us from putting certain type of slugs in the machine. Sometimes those slugs worked. The price was a penny for a piece of Dentine Gum, and, here I am not certain, two cents for a pack of chiclets. I always had to have gum in the subway. Wierd as it might seem, it tasted better down there. What's even stranger is that there were no such gum machines that I can remember when the train exited the tunnels. All the machines were underground. Keep 'em rolling.
9/14/99
Remember those 5 cent Hershey candy bar machines? They were painted red held 3 candy bar varities and were column mounted. Those machines ate up nickels and jammed a lot. Perhaps you may remember those sode and ice cream vending machines too/
Bill Newkirk
Bill: Bingo! Yes those machines. However, it was those ice cream machines that always seem to jam, not the candy bar ones. I used to get the red covered wrapper Hershey with nuts. And that machine jammed for you? Wierd. I can remember those ice cream machines not always working and my Mom telling me to wait until we got off the train so we could find a Bungalow Bar or a Topsy Turvy Truck and she'd buy me one. Those trucks came only from April to September, so in between I was out of luck.
Sea Beach Man: Ice Cream!!! I remember, when I was in my under tens,
taking the 4th Ave local to "downtown" Brooklyn each year shopping for school clothes ( E.J.Korvettes, Mays, etc.). Money was tight for us then, but mom always found a way to get me that soft ice cream with strawberry or chocolate topping in a fluted glass at the cafeteria in McCrory's Department Store lower level (I think there was an entrance directly from the store's lower level to the IRT Nevins St station). And she always got me a frank or two from one of those corner food stands along with drink in one of those conical, upside-down dunce cap cups in the plastic holders. I looked forward to that so much. It's funny the the things you take for granted today were sometimes considered a treat. Thanks for the memory.
Hey McNits: This goes two ways. If you have any of those kind of memories, by all means let me know. I believe I was in McCrory's a couple of times just before the start of school--between 1948-1950 For some reason they carried dress shirts for kids that had those spread collars I loved to wear. Funny how you read someone else's experience and boom, you remember more of your own. What a website this is.
1948 was a great year! It was the year I graduated from knickers to long pants. I think I was the last kid in Brooklyn who wore them.
Are Bungalow Bar trucks still making the rounds or are they history too?
I would like to ride the Aqueduct Special, either IND or LIRR (depending on the year) as long as I can bring a copy of the next day's paper with the accurate results and as long as money can be transported back to the present!!!!
I would like to ride the Aqueduct Special, either
IND or LIRR (depending on the year) as long as I can
bring a copy of the next day's paper with the
accurate results and as long as money can be
transported back to the present!!!!
Hey - even better - as long as those '39 dollars grow into '99 dollars!!!
I'll take the same as Jeff but make my timeframe about 1910-1911, and Ill get to the track using the Mineola!!!!
For the other 2 days , Ill take one in NY City before the NY Railways system went toes up and ride streetcars and El's all day and night.
The other Ill spend in Chicago riding the North Shore line and eat my meals in the dining car and relax with a cigar out on the Obervation Car platform. I can hear the motors humming now
One question can we bring film? lol I would need a lot of Kodachrome hehehe
Sounds great as long as the machine doesn't fog up film like those new airport X-ray machines :-)
What I would do is return to NYC transit at its peak--with all els, trolleys and subways in place...I suppose that would be the mid-1930s. I'd add in the additions made since then like the Rockaway IND and the Roosevelt (Welfare) Island subway stop.
BUT: I would have them with modernized equipment, ie. air conditioning, bing-bong doors, etc. What a trip that would be! I'd keep the old structures the way they were, though. The pot bellied stoves would still be there on the 3rd Avenue el for example.
Would look forward to riding Brooklyn's 5th-3rd Avenue el on an R-68...
I wouldn't say NY peaked in the 1930s. That was the Depression, after all. But the general idea is right. You want to show up before the rail/transit network outside the city is dismantled, even if it means a few key city pieces (like the 6th Avenue) have yet to be built. You'd also want electricity, indoor plumbing, and an abscense of horses crapping all over.
I'd like to live on the Grand Concourse when the buildings were new, and Yankee Stadium was just a few years old. In the 1920s, assuming I would be well off (living like most people did before WWII is a nightmare not a fantasy), I'd be one of the few with a car as well, for use on pleasure drives to the country. The movie palaces would be built, and the economy would be booming. I could take the IRT, or an El, or ride a New York Central Train all the way north on the Putnam or Harlem lines. Now that's living.
Larry: Include Coney Island when it was a real great place, throw in Ebbets Field and Prospect, add the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach, and add a pinch of early suburban Long Island, and I'll drink to that. (lemonade). Nice show.
Larry: Include Coney Island when it was a real great place, throw in Ebbets Field and Prospect Park add the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach, and add a pinch of early suburban Long Island, and I'll drink to that. (lemonade). Nice show.
Yes, that was a good time. I was born too late -- or perhaps too soon. Because objectively, the world is a lot better place than it was in the 1970s when I was growing up. Ten years ago, would anyone have suggested being transported into the future to experience great transport and communication technology? Nope -- it was all nostalgia for the old trains and radio shows.
There are two advantages of growing up in the 1970s.
1) You don't look back wistfully at your past, and
2) No matter how fat or bald you are, you look better than you did in your teens.
Regarding "golden eras" ... It's impression from most of what I've read that the early and middle 1950s indeed were a golden era for NYC as a whole. The city was clean, growing and prosperous, the unquestioned national leader in matter both economic and cultural. Crime was extremely low by today's standards and there surely wasn't all the racial and ethnic hatred that boils over nowadays. The city was full of media outlets that addressed just about anyone's opinions and interests, not like today with the _Times'_ effective monopoly. Politics were much more (small "d") democratic than they are now, when the Upper West Siders run the show.
BUT - this same period wasn't so terrific for the subways. System expansion had essentially stopped, except for the takeover of the LIRR's Rockaway route, and ridership numbers had peaked a number of years earlier. And don't forget the never-remedied destruction of the Third Avenue El. Even more seriously, it appears that the "deferred maintenance" policy that proved so disastrous in later years had gotten its start in the mid-1950s.
The 50s may have been a golden era, but from most accounts (read Caro's The Power Broker) the LIRR was in miserable shape in the 50s, with filthy, broken down trains in which you broiled in summer and froze in winter.
As for the lack of racial and ethnic hatred that boils over nowadays, I know what you mean, but I'm sure you're happy about the civil rights reforms that came around in the 60s; I am.
[The 50s may have been a golden era, but from most accounts (read Caro's The Power Broker) the LIRR was in miserable shape in the 50s, with filthy, broken down trains in which you broiled in summer and froze in winter.]
I guess its was in the 1950s that the LIRR became largely a commuter operation, with its business mostly concentrated in rush hour. It's pretty much a given that it's impossible to run at a profit under those circumstances.
Not that the conditions of LIRR trains today are anything to write home about :-)
[As for the lack of racial and ethnic hatred that boils over nowadays, I know what you mean, but I'm sure you're happy about the civil rights reforms that came around in the 60s; I am.]
Oh, definitely. It just seems like there's too much racial rabble-rousing today.
I can't agree that the 1950s were a "golden era" in New York.
Yes, some things were better than today--especially the crime rate was less than even the current post-80's drop.
But it was part of a long general decline of the City. Under Mayor Robert Wagner there was an accleration of the long neglect of infrastructure, sacrificed to increasing social service spending and labor peace.
Apartment buildings were eating up single-family housing and slums were spreading. This was the era when street sweepers were eliminated and a decline in civic pride led to crumbling and filthy streets. When "West Side Story" hit the theater in 1957, it was a romanticized look at the gang problem that worried many.
There was no respect for the public works of the past which were allowed to crumble to oblivion. Bauhaus-inspired modernism created the sterile office structures we see today.
The best part of the '50s was that it took a long time to destroy the past, so there was much to see before it disappeared, but it was disappearing.
The decline of the subways (lack of expansion, deferred maintenance) that you allude to, Peter, were a symptom of what was going on throughout the City.
If I wanted to look through rose-colored glasses at an era, I would choose the '30s. It was a time of amazing physical and cultural vitality in NYC. But then there was that pesky "Great Depression."
[If I wanted to look through rose-colored glasses at an era, I would choose the '30s. It was a time of amazing physical and cultural vitality in NYC. But then there was that pesky "Great Depression."]
Even then, I suppose, things weren't perfect for the subways. Some system expansion was still going on, but the Second System failed to materialize (due in large part to the Depression), some els were lost, and the IRT and BMT were breathing their last as private companies.
My high school and college years all took place during the 70s. More than anything else during that decade, the graffiti epidemic sticks out the most. It was truly repulsive and depressing.
If I could go back in time, there are three scenarios:
1. Back to 1956-57, the time when I was born, when the Giants and Dodgers were still in town and Julie's in Manhattan was selling American Flyer trains like hotcakes. That time period was A. C. Gilbert's golden era. I'd ride the R-1/9s and R-10s all day, with a trip on a Brighton or Sea Beach Express of Triplexes at the top of my list.
2. Back to October of 1936. My mother discovered a few tidbits from my grandfather's visit to the U. S. that year; he was in New York for a week or so in early October before sailing back to Europe. On Oct. 6, he took what is now the Circle Line around Manhattan and shot almost an entire roll of film. There are some good photos of the various bridges as well as the New York Aquarium (Castle Clinton in Battery Park today), but none of Yankee Stadium or the Polo Grounds. Anyway, it would be a kick to bump into him - as long as he didn't have a premonition that he was seeing his grandson-to-be.
3. Chicago in the mid-50s. 4000-series trains in the State St. and Dearborn subways; Green Hornets on the Broadway-State and Clark-Wenworth streetcar routes. I still lament the fact that I'm too young to remember streetcars in Chicago.
<<
Would look forward to riding Brooklyn's 5th-3rd Avenue el on an R-68... >>
I'd prefer a slant 40 down the Fulton El and then across te Brooklyn Bridge, followed by a Redbird trip up the Second Ave. El and back across the Queensboro to Flushing.
And hope the structures would hold up....
Yeah, really. One word comes to mind with an R-68 on the 5th Ave. el:
TIMMMM_BERRRRRR!!!!!
Nah!!! The old equipment is what makes it a real fantasy!!!
I'll take it any of three ways -- old or new equipment on torn-down lines and old equipment on current lines (Like BMT Standards in the 63rd St. tunnel -- I'd like to hear what the acoustics would be with those pinon gears)
I'd like to see the MS running on an express run like the Queens Boulevard "F" or the 8th Avenue line (either CPW or Fulton). That's one bird I've never spotted. Come to think of it, maybe my fantasy could resurrect a fleet of Bluebs for Ye Olde Canarsie Line, in their classic Clark colors. I can just see one of them at Sutter in my mind's eye.
Wayne
That would be the ultimate express run: a train of multis screamimg along CPW or Queens Blvd./Hillside Ave. The R-10s wouldn't stand a chance; the multis would blow them away off the line.
Were the multis really THAT fast?? A couple of books say that they could run the entire weekend Canarsie service with SIX trains of MS units (!!).
Their balancing speed was something like 58 mph, and their acceleration and braking rates were so swift that they had "HOLD ON!" signs. I can only imagine how fast they used to go through the 14th St. tunnel.
Wasn't the TA working on a 2nd Avenue WABACK Machine before the budget crunch in the 1970s?
Sorry people, if it was me, I would set it for WA-WA-WA back and ride my horse up Bloomingdale Road which was roughly between what is now Madison and Park Aves. Cross the Kissing Bridge over the stream that ran through upper Manhattan and cross over to the West Side of the island and "Broadway" on the trail that was roughly between what is now 93rd and 94th Streets.
If it has to have a train in it I would like to spend a couple of days hanging out in the old Hudson Rail Terminal which, I believe, was on the Hudson shore South East of what is now the World Trade Center.
Do you mean the Jersey Central Terminal(Reading/B&O) on Liberty Street at the Hudson River? It was due west of the WTC and connected by ferry to the rail terminal in Jersey City.
Or, do you mean Hudson Terminal where the Hudson & Manhattan Railroad ran?
Just three days? Hmmm... Three continguous days?
I guess I would aim for June 21-22-23, 1915.
Last operation of the Sea Beach to 3rd/65th, then ride the Sea Beach with Standards on opening day over the Manhattan Bridge. West End and Culver still on the surface. Ride the Brighton with all elevated cars, the old r-o-w to Church Avenue, lotsa pictures of old Prospect Park, then the current r-o-w past Sheepshead Bay, down the ramp, then on the surface to Culver Depot. Maybe a stop at Luna Park and a trip with L cars to Norton's Point.
Gotta hit all the other L lines and see all the pre-Dual Contract stuff. After a few spins around the loop at Sands Street, it's on to Park Row. Now I'm going to do every inch of the (pre-third tracking) Manhattan els, 2-3-6-9.
In my slack time, all those Brooklyn trolleys. Do I have time for a round trip from Penn to Manhattan Beach?
As soon as I get back, I'm going to have to sleep around the clock, but not before I rush my film to my photo finisher.
Then I have to get to work pleading for another go-round. After all, I didn't get to see the els in steam days...
OK, I'm setting the dials on the WABC machine to 1967 - Summer time.
The R40s are brand new, looking like space age technology and running on the E and the F. Some are even air conditioned.
R1-R9 cars sit at Jamaica yard alongside R40s, R27s (R27s on the RR) and R38s with their as delivered thin blue stripe - also on the F.
You can catch an R32 on most Southern division BMT trains and they still have their classic blue doors and green backlit destination signs.
But the dionsaurs (in the form of Q cars) still groan away on the Myrtle ave el.
Standards work the Canarsie line day and night - some approaching 50 years in service.
The IRT has beautifully painted R33 and R36s - Worlds Fair cars are looking as good as the R10s on the A train.
The third avenue El in the Bronx is using the 1939 version of IRT "World's Fair" cars - at this time - the oldest IRT cars in the system.
And the Railroads are in their prime too. The Long Island is hauling 14 6 axle heavyweights to Montauk behind a pair of Alco C420s on the Cannonball. RS3s are snarling away and belching smoke at the grades on the Port Jeff and Oyster Bay. Electric Doubledeckers are on the Hempstead branch. Greenport has thru service to Hunterspoint on several trains a day - one with Parlor Car service.
In New Jersey, the Erie (formerly the DL&W) is still running those ancient electric MUs with cane seats and paddle fans.
Speaking of the Erie, it's the last year of thru passenger service - Jersey City to Chicago. Head out on that train - a pair of RS3s. You might wonder whether those RS3s stay on - thru to Chicago.
The New York Central still wears lightning stripes and the ACMUs are their "New" fleet. P motors still haul trains south of croton to GCT.
RS3s handle Harlem line traffic from White Plains to Chatham.
Aging RDCs handle the off hours Poughkeepsie - Croton and Dover Plains shuttle.
Speaking of Poughkeepsie, freights run daily over the Poughkeepsie bridge which connects with the Maybrook on one side and leads to Brewster and Danbury on the other. Ramshackle New Haven diesels haul tonnage through very rural surroundings with very tired equipment.
The FL9s on the New Haven are all in New Haven livery and haul everything from Boston - New York Long distance to commuter to freight traffic. There are 60 of them working at this time all over lines that go as far North as Pittsfield, MA. One train connects for through service to Montreal.
At this time in 1967, who could have thought that the LIRR would some day be without Alco power, thru service to Greenport, 6 axle coaches?
Who would have thought that electric MUs would be replaced by M1 and M2 equipment and that service to Chatham would be dropped?
P motors and all things good that were long distance got replaced by Amtrak. It wasn't expected.
It never ocurred to me that the R1 fleet, the Standards, Q cars, IRT 39 Worlds Fair cars - that all these would be retired or close to retirement within just five years.
It was a time of change and I want to go back - just once - to see it again.
Better set that machine to Summer 1968. In Summer 1967, the R-40s weren't in yet. IIRC, the first R-40s came in around Election Day 1967 to help sell the $600 million bond issue (which passed -- aren't you riding the Second Avenue Subway?), and promptly went back to St. Louis Car to be finished. A similar thing happened in 1971 with R-44s.
David
[The R40s are brand new, looking like space age technology and running on the E and the F. Some are even air conditioned.]
Yeah, 1967 was a good year. My love affair with the subway blossomed and took off that year. It's something I wouldn't mind revisiting.
Penn Station was gone by then, and the old Met was demolished. The Mets sank back to the NL cellar that year, although a fellow named Tom Seaver was Rookie of the Year. Mickey Mantle was playing first base for the Yankees in an attempt to save his knees.
The R-38s were the new kid on the subway block that summer, and the Chrystie St. connection was a few months away from creating total chaos on the IND and BMT for a few days anyway. The R-1/9s still had backlit side destination signs as they whined along the IND while the R-10s were roaring along CPW on the A in their teal and white livery. Meanwhile, the R-16s were still sporting BMT number markings on their route curtains, as they hadn't embarked yet on their gypsy-like meanderings from yard to yard.
Steve B--8AVEXP: Since you're by blood brother after giving me the title "Sea Beach Man", I would be loathe to criticize you after bragging what a great year 1967 was. Since I met my lovely wife of 29 years that year it was a great year for me on that score alone. But believe me, if you were in your early or mid 20's at that time there were a lot of things that were not so good about that year. The cities were on fire because of numerous riots, the college campuses were in ferment over things ranging from inequities in society to the war in Vietnam. People were losing faith in their government for the first time. It was a rough time. AND---that was the year that #4 disappeared from the Sea Beach for good (except for a day or two in 1970). The Sea Beach became the N, and although that letter is one of my favorite numbers, a large measure of my childhood was gone forever.
And it was the "Summer of Love" in San Francisco, CA.
Dad and I got a ride through Chrystie Street and the new Grand Street station on Sunday, November 26, 1967. The "D"s were R32s, all spiffy and shining bright. Song of the day: "Love Me Two Times" by The Doors.
Wayne
Sea Beach Man: I also recall the year 1967 fondly, (I was 17 for most of that year) although ('79-met future wife, '80-engaged, '81- marraige, '82 -85 sons, '91-daughter) have since outdistanced the former. I graduated from Bishop Ford High School that year, and was an incoming matriculated freshman at Brooklyn College, so I discovered the eccentricities of the Brooklyn IRT that year. Open enrollment at CUNY was still several years away, but I recall numerous demonstrations on campus. Besides all that, I remember noticing that adults spoke to me like my opinion really mattered, that they recognized I wasn't just a kid anymore...I really felt like I the world was mine for the taking......a great feeling.
McNits: Sounds to me like the 80's was when you really picked up and laid them down. A new wife, sons and daughters. Sounds to me like you are a real family man. I'm ten years older. I turned 27 late that year, though I lied to my future wife who was still 19 and wouldn't turn 20 until January of '68. My friends told me I was robbing the cradle, but I didn't want to lose her. When I told her the truth a year later, it was too late. I had corrupted her. You are right about being treated as if you mattered. I no longer took any crap from older adults and became a teacher in Feb. of '68. I also became one of the more militant teachers at the school. Today's new teachers are so namby-pamby, they do what they're told and never question authority. They would make good Nazis always following orders. I'm sure glad I came of age in the 60's I never worried about questioning some crap that some higher up tried to foist on me.
Thanks for the memory. Have a good one and keep in touch.
I'm an ex-teacher myself. Or, more accurately, I subbed for seven years before coming to a fork in the road and taking it, as Yogi Berra once said. Some schools were OK; others were zoos. Believe me, I have never looked back since leaving the education field and don't miss it one bit.
Wayne MrSlantR40--That must have been some day for you. You're right about the "Summer of Love in San Francisco" The town was really jumping and the feeling went 200 miles to Paso Robles where I was doing by two weeks of Army duty with the National Guard that summer. Later in September I met my wife at a dance at Cal State University, Long Beach, and that December we went to a Doors concert at the school where they sang "Love Me Two Times" and others. I have always loved their "Crystal Ship". Thanks for jogging my memory.
I was 10 going on 11 in 1967, so I'm looking back from that perspective. You're right, though - there was a lot of unrest and turbulence.
Just out of curiosity: Does anyone out there have stories about the first day(s) with Chrystie St? Have heard it was quite the adventure the first few days.....
I remember reading a newspaper article (which I didn't keep, unfortunately) in which a motorman punched a wrong button at DeKalb. In the words of the article, "instead of going under the East River by (Montague St.) tunnel, 1,000 astonished riders found themselves crossing the Manhattan Bridge". The article didn't say if the train wound up on Houston St. (north side) or Broadway (south side).
There were other similar incidents. Supposedly, some trains wound up in Kew Gardens instead of the Bronx. To sum it up, the first few days after it opened were chaotic.
"I remember reading a newspaper article (which I didn't keep, unfortunately) in which a motorman punched a wrong
button at DeKalb. In the words of the article, "instead of going under the East River by (Montague St.) tunnel, 1,000
astonished riders found themselves crossing the Manhattan Bridge"."
He must have hit the wrong button before DeKalb - after the late 50's - early 60's northward extension of the DeKalb platforms, there was no way for a train on the "tunnel" track at DeKalb to get on to the "bridge" track.
subfan
You're right - I stand corrected. Pacific St, perhaps?
I guess if there was a WAFORWARD machine, we could set it forward a few years to see what the 2nd ave line looks like, but I doubt it'd be able to go forward enough....
Since this is fantasy...
come 1/1/2000 we'll be back in 1900 and we'll see them build the IRT contract 1 and be able to ride the old steam els. I dont think the machine is Y2K compliant--It seems to be a 1950s or 1960s machine!
Now, sicne it is a time machine we could return to a minute before we left so we would have never left and then go to another time and so on! (common Sci-Fi Them,e which was made popular in Robert A. Heinlein's story : By His Bootstraps-- the hero travels in time and meets a character who has him meet a third character. Our hero discovers that he is the second character and then discovers that he is also the third character-- classic sc-fi Paradox!)better stop here before I drift so far off topic that Big Brother vaporizes this post :-)
Souns like Back to the Future Part II if you ask me.
It does, but Heinlein was FIRST, While there, I'd also tell the builders of the Manhattan Bridge to put the tracks in the center!
I dont have the exact date, but I think By His Bootstraops was written in the late 1940s or early 1950s.I'm sure the library might have a collection with this story.
Just remembered! Also (if I'm starting out in NYC at first); coming up HERE (Middletown), on the old O&W walking thru my town as it was..[actually not all that different!], and then taking the Erie down to JERSEY CITY. (For those who don't know:Middletown used to be a happin' little railroad town, with the Erie Main running thru, and being the headquarters town of the old New York,Ontario & Western (O&W). The O&W was the first Class One railroad to go totally out of business back in 1957...which tells you a lot about THIS town :>)
I believe I'd ask Mr. Sherman to set the Wayback Machine for 1879 or so, and ride all of the Coney Island steam dummy lines.
However, if I were granted license to step just a bit outside the framework of SubTalk, I would opt to be landed in New York circa 1898. I would then hie me hence to the Weehawken Ferry, and board the New York, Ontario & Western's through Wagner buffet sleeper to Chicago via NYO&W - Rome, Watertown, & Ogdensburg - Wabash.
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
Aren't we going to take a ride over to GCT to greet the Twentieth Century Limited and then head down to the CNJ ferry so we can ride the Blue Comet to Atlantic City?
make my reservation of the broadway to chicago and on to california on the deluxe
I'll leave you at Jersey City, as I take the B&O Royal Blue to Baltimore. Where Brill Semi-Convertibles of 1906 vintage still share tracks with newer siblings, Shiny Peter Witts speed down Falls Road and haul office workers home in comfort, and new PCC cars enchant the public and operators alike. Two and Three car trains of Semi's, jammed to the gills, haul steelworkers and shipwrights to Sparrows Point, home of the largest tidewater steel plant in America. And 90% of the workers arrive by streetcar.
Three Days??? Hell, I'd want to stay a year!!
[I'll leave you at Jersey City, as I take the B&O Royal Blue to Baltimore. Where Brill Semi-Convertibles of 1906 vintage still share tracks with newer siblings, Shiny Peter Witts speed down Falls Road and haul office workers home in comfort, and new PCC cars enchant the public and operators alike. Two and Three car trains of Semi's, jammed to the gills, haul steelworkers and shipwrights to Sparrows Point, home of the largest tidewater steel plant in America. And 90% of the workers arrive by streetcar.]
Is Sparrows Point still in operation? Last time I drove over the Key Bridge, maybe a couple years ago, it looked mostly deserted except for some shipyard operation.
It's still in operation, but a shadow of its former state. Employment is down to about 8700, from over 27,000 in the 1960's. Several of the hot strip mills are gone, but the 68" (the largest) is still in operation, but only 8 hours per day, 5 day week. When I worked there in the late 60's, we ran 21 turns a week - that's 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Both the 56" and the 42" mills were 21 turns, too.
We all made damn good money - $265 a week CLEAR! I was a salried clerk, so I wore a white hat!!
Remember, good guys wear white hats!
1938, so I could stand with my great-uncle when he took the picture of steam on and under (ferry) the Poughkeepsie Bridge that hangs in my living room, then down to the GCT and the subway to the real Penn Station for a ride on the Broadway behind a GG-1, changing at Harrisburg for an M1 over the mountain and across Ohio and Indiana to Chicago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Looks like I'll be using our Express bus & TA subways to get to/from a meeting at South Ferry this comming Thursday. There still is a chance that I may end up riding in a company car, but I hope not.
You may recall that I got the same bus driver both ways last time.
Will need to ensure that I arrive on time because it's going to be a big meeting with a lot of suits. So, can anyone tell me how frequent the N/R is South from 34th Street. I assume it's not more then a few minutes around 9:30 AM vs. almost one after the other on IND & IRT lines.
Mr t__:^)
[Looks like I'll be using our Express bus & TA subways to get to/from a meeting at South Ferry this comming Thursday. There still is a chance that I may end up riding in a company car, but I hope not. You may recall that I got the same bus driver both ways last time.
Will need to ensure that I arrive on time because it's going to be a big meeting with a lot of suits. So, can anyone tell me how frequent the N/R is South from 34th Street. I assume it's not more then a few minutes around 9:30 AM vs. almost one after the other on IND & IRT lines.]
Lengthy and inexplicable gaps between trains seem to be a hallmark of the N/R. You should allow for a wait of at least ten minutes, just to be on the safe side - even 15 minutes if the suits can't be kept waiting.
Thanks Peter, Guess I'll take the reliable old Red Birds on 4/5/6 after a short trip on IND. Maybe I'll take the N/R for the return.
Mr t__:^)
Sorry, I'm going to be gone for a few weeks while my monitor gets replaced.
I was just wondering if any of the posters from this board that live in or have visited Chicago have rode the South Shore Line. It is the Electric train that runs from Randolph Street Station in the Loop to South Bend Airport in South Bend Indiana. It is Chicago's longest commeter rail line 88 miles and 2 & 1/2 hours for a one-way trip.
Anway if anyone has ridden it, I would appreciate any tips or neat things to see. I have never ridden it before despite living in Chicago for 17 years since my birth, however on the other hand if you have any Metra or CTA Questions, I could proabaly answer them.
It should be pretty cool since it uses shared track with Metra Electric between Randolph Street/Downtown Chicago and 115th Street Chicago. It also runs down the middle of the street in Michigan City but also has many streches where it reaches the full 79 m.p.h. allowable with crossings.
I will be embarking on the Journey next Saturday the 18 of September.
BJ
I last rode the South Shore about four years ago, and would say that the highlight is the area from Michigan City east: street running in Michigan City; a still very interurbanish single-track rural line between there and the west edge of South Bend, and even some side-of-the-road running on the new stretch into Michiana Airport.
--
Alan Follett
On the other hand pay attention to vestiges of catenary over freight trackage @ Kensington lower level, Burnham Miller etc. They once used lovely electric 'motors' for freight service including 2 Little Joe's. A look @ the CERA Bulletin or some other reputable history might be in order before the reconoitering trip. In any event have fun! Ifirst rode the line when 11 and have loved it ever since (40 +).
Just finished reading a nice article in an 1982 edition of Trains about the Electroliners that used to ply that line.
(picked it up for a dollar in Moscow, PA)
Mr t__:^)
The Electrolinerswere on the North Shore, not the South Shore. Are you referring to the older electric equipment (don't remember what they called it and I'm on a business trip so I can't check my library) that did run on the South Shore, or do you have the wrong RR?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Eye should have waited until I brought in the article. I'll do that tommorow. It was interurban service under wire in the 40s & 50s.
Mr t__:^)
Well, they both had it, so you're on the right track! :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Found my Oct. 1982 issue of Trains.
The feature article is about the NORTH Shore Line "Electroliners" that ran between 1941 and 1963 under wire for Chicago North Shore & Milwaukee Railroad. They were two sets of articulated streamlined interurbans and resembled the Zephyrs in their outward appearnce.
Mr t__:^)
Bingo! I rode the Electroliners several times as a child when they were still in service on the North Shore, as well as after they came to Philadelphia on the Red Arrow (and were known as Liberty Liners. What an experience!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thurston -
I know of the article you are speaking. There was a two section article on the famed CNS&M "Electroliners". It was either SEP/OCT or OCT/NOV 1982 issues of "Trains" Magazine. The article was written by the Electroliner and CNS&M historian, John D. Horachek. John was a young CNS&M brakeman/conductor in the roads last years. He was able to rescue hundreds of North Shore items from the Highwood Shops before they were destroyed.
There has been a story circulating for years that John is writing a book on the two famous trains. Knowing John's writings, I'm sure it would be a very good book.
BTW, John Horachek writes articles pertaining to his work experiences on the North Shore in "First & Fastest" published quaterly by the Shore Line Interurban Historical Society. Their address is PO Box 346, Chicago, IL 60690-0346.
Anyone who is a fan, or wants to know more about Midwest interurbans, Chicago streetcar operations, or the Chicago 'L' may be interested in a sample copy. Yearly subscriptions are $20 for four issues.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim, Thanks for the additional detail !
In case you missed my reply on another thread it was Oct/Nov '82, and author was John Horachek.
Mr t__:^)
I was born in South Bend and remember the South Shore all too well. In my day, the Big Orange cars terminated downtown at LaSalle Ave. and Michigan St. with a storage yard east of the St. Joseph River. My aunt was a regular commuter on it for three years, and my mother would take it to Chicago on occasion. I remember waiting for her return train and seeing its bright headlight come into view as it crawled through the streets of South Bend.
I rode on it once, on a round trip to Chicago on April 1 and 2, 1967, two weeks before we left for New Jersey. Two big differences now are the elevated station in Gary right next to the Toll Road, and the stretch which ducks beneath the Toll Road just to the east of the Wilbur Shaw/Knute Rockne service areas which is now double-tracked.
The East Chicago bypass, where the tracks parallel the Toll Road, is very intriguing. I remember racing an eastbound Big Orange train in August of 1979. The last Big Orange cars were retired four years later.
I rode it once around 1980 for the USC-Notre Dame football game at
South Bend. It was an 8 car chartered train filled with football fans. I remember some of the USC alumni were buying the conductor's
hats for $100 apiece!
By the way, one set of Electroliners live at the Illinois Railway
Museum in Union. I don't know if the other set survived.
The other set survives in Rockhill Furnace, Pennsylvania, in rather decrepit condition (although slated for restoration, I understand), in the Libertyliner livery they wore while running on the Philadelphia and Western's Norristown Line (now SEPTA).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Notre Dame and Southern Cal (I purposely use that moniker because of my intense dislike for USC) play in Los Angeles during even-number years, so you must be referring to 1979 or 1981. Charles White won the Heisman in '79 with Marcus Allen blocking for him, while Allen won it in '81. Do you remember who was coaching Notre Dame? Dan Devine was there in 1979; by 1981, it was Gerry Faust (what a wuss!)
At one time, the South Shore connected with another interurban line that went west to Mishwaka, etc.
A total of 23 new pictures were added today at TransiTALK in the NYC Bus, NYC Subway, & NJ Transit sections of the page, CHECK IT OUT!
http://geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650/NYCTransit.html
Trevor Logan
I don't know. I just saw this here.
Do you like it?
No.
Let me qualify that.
1) Yes, the current Penn station is a dump. It needs to be replaced
2) The propesed design has many faults.
3) It's too far west to be useful - you'll have to walk for your LIRR/NJT/subway connections. Bad Thing (tm)
4) It's AFIK, Amtrak only. Amtrak is getting cut loose in 2002. IMHO, it's not worth wasting money on a new station for them until they can prove that they'll be around for a few years.
5) Why, oh WHY, do we feel this pressing need to recreate" the old Penn station. It's gone (almost). We screwed up bigtime. The PRR got the last laugh. Lets demolish the current SG/Offic building/dump combo and start over with a new design.
6) It doesn't address the train area, which is, IMHO one of the most lacking and ugly parts of Penn (and GCT too).
7) It's going to tear up ANOTHER historic building. This would be akin to us demolishing the Empire State Buyilding, and then chopping up the Chrysler building to look like it because we felt stupid about chopping up the Empire State Building.
8) It doesn't address any of the short commings of the current Penn station.
9) It still leaves the current Penn station here.
I'd love to see a new Penn Station, but this propsal just isn't it - and guts another historic building in the process.
I think someone will take over the Northeast Corridor if Amtrak is dismantled, but I agree, we should see how the situation develops before spending money on a new station. Unless they're hiding something from us, I don't think anyone in the Federal Government has a clue about what to do if Amtrak doesn't meet the target in 2002.
To rebuild on the original site would require purchasing the existing buildings and would be very expensive. The has been some talk by Guiliani of building a new Garden next to the Javitis Center, but the existing Garden would be replaced by an office building or hotel.
Until Madison Square Garbage is demolished, I will not be a Knicks or Rangers fan until that monstrosity is thrown to the ash heap of history along with the graves of the absent-minded architects who designed it. Until then, my railroading needs will be addressed at Jamaica or Newark.
They should just rebuild the original Penn Sta. where it was (or at least the western end of it), if they move MSG. Then, it the Post Office is converted already, you could just have a double RR sta., and LIRR would have the classic atation look back too.
I think we can discuss the plan on its own merits w/o worrying much about the preservation argument. All the public spaces of the GPO (which is to say, the Eighth Avenue steps and the mail foyer, and, I trust, the goofy Postal Museum) will be preserved and continue to function as the city's 24-hour post office; mail operations will have to be reorganized in the interior, but the USPS is watching to make sure it will suit their needs. Many of the functions the GPO was built for are now handled at the Morgan building further down Ninth Avenue, so there really is some room in the building for Amtrak.
The original, landmarked structure is the part on Eighth Avenue, extending about a third of the way down the block. The only visible changes to it will be the station entrances in the corners beside the steps, which are currently empty pits below sidewalk level. Concourses will be opened in the interior court, which is not now open to the public (and also empty, of course). The big glass structure and taxi entrances will be in the space between the McKim, Mead and White building and the 1935 addition. So I see the project not as gutting a landmark, but as giving new usefulness to a big (if handsome) white elephant.
Whether it's worthwhile on its own merits is a tougher question. I'm not too concerned about moving a block west; the platforms aren't moving, so it shouldn't be that much harder to get to the IRT. As long as ticket machines and track info is available in the NJT section, habitual riders will probably come and go from Seventh Avenue without using the new building. And Ninth Avenue is often easier for cabs than Seventh. But I do see it as a cosmetic project. Sure, Penn's a dump, but it's not broken, and there are probably more worthwhile things to do than start fixing it. Nevertheless, Amtrak is getting the money from Congress (assuming it does) for this purpose only, so they might as well do it. I'd rather have the new station than an F-22.
Looks better than that cathedral of illiteracy, madison square garden.
Marx was wrong about a lot of things, including "Religion is the opium of the people" He was wrong Sports is the opium of the people. Too bad they tore down the real Penn Station for that monstrosity
I AGREE, When Penn Station is scheduled to be demolished I will VOLUNTEER to tear that piece of Garbage, Madison Square Garbage, to pieces.
I hope that when you guys and gals tear down what you call Madison Square Garbage, you will find my younger brother a new job. My brother works there as a carpnter in Union 608 and changes the Garden from hockey to basketball to the circus to wrestling, you catch my drift. He has a wife and a daughter and two sons to support.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
He'll just be transferred to the new one next to Javits Ctr. That's the only case in which the current MSG would be demolished.
I've always wondered how that's done. Anyway, there will still be a Madison Square Garden (hopefully a homage to the 1911 Stanford White construction w/ rooftop restaurant). It will probably be above the open air rail yards that the NJT passes through.
"Sports is the opium of the people. Too bad they tore down the real Penn Station for that monstrosity "
Not only did they tear down Penn Station, but the rubble was dumped in the Jersey Meadows to build......MEADOWLANDS!!!!
Sports is truly the opiate of the people. And the Dealers own the teams and bleed the cities/states to build the palaces.
Don't get me started.
Oh,yes. To this day, I refuse to get off in the basement of a sports complex.
If you want to see more of this proposal, you can view a three dimensional model of it at the Museum of Modern Art.
Other than 8981-9152 on the R33, who has a list of mismatched pairs for the Redbirds (R26,R28,R29,R33,R36) and for the R44, R46, R62 and R68 types....
BTW, I know there is at least one mismatched set on the R62...1431-1432-1433-1434-1438.
I show the following:
R33 #9212 with #9115.
R33 #9130 with #9225.
R36 #9348 with #9411 (this is temporary until fire damage to #9349 and anticlimber damage to #9410 is repaired)
R46 #5614-5615 along with #6204-6205.
R44 #5316-5317-5405-5418. (#5319 fire damaged)
R44 #5302-5303-5262-5263.
R44 #5246-5247-5337-5336.
R44 #5260-5261-5277-5276.
R40M/R42 #4460 with #4665 (the Willy B Survivors)
R40 #4426 with #4429.
R40 #4258 with #4261.
R44 information is courtesy of Steve Kreisler.
Wayne
Wayne: Thanks for the info. I'm old friends with 9115-9212 having ridden her many times over the last 30 years.Curiously I see 9130-9225 much less often.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I seen R33 #9225-9130 this past tuesday at Freeman St & i should have take pictures.
Peace Out
Meaney
I forgot to mention two other mismatched pairs (outside the R32 series):
R44 #5404-5403-5479-5478
R42 #4684 with #4727.
Wayne
I show the following:
R33 #9212 with #9115.
R33 #9130 with #9225.
R36 #9348 with #9411 (this is temporary until fire damage to #9349 and anticlimber damage to #9410 is repaired)
R46 #5614-5615 along with #6204-6205.
R46 #5616-5617 along with #6202-6203 (omitted from first post)
R44 #5316-5317-5405-5418. (#5319 fire damaged)
R44 #5302-5303-5262-5263.
R44 #5246-5247-5337-5336.
R44 #5260-5261-5277-5276.
R40M/R42 #4460 with #4665 (the Willy B Survivors)
R40 #4426 with #4429.
R40 #4258 with #4261.
R44 information is courtesy of Steve Kreisler.
Wayne
When I will be ready to run on my new tracks? I want to find a real home. I been shiftng back and forth. From Coney Island to Brighton Beach. From Astoria to 57-7. From 57-7 to 57-6. I want to find a real home. From 2Av to Queensbridge back to 57-6. From 57-6 back to Queensbridge. WHEN OH WHEN ILL BE READY TO RUN TO MY NEW HOME?????
Q: 21St/Queensbridge---Brighton Beach, Bklyn via Express
I was wondering how many of you know the opening
scene in Woody Allen"s Stardust Memories made in 1980. It is not one of his well known films, and some people took it to be an attack on his fans. I'm not going to describe the actual opening scene other than to say that he's sitting in one of the old Erie Lackawana electrics looking at the other people in his car, and then looking out the window and seeing people in another train. Did it strike anybody else out there?
paul C-49 Mack Bus wrote:
> I was wondering how many of you know the
> opening scene in Woody Allen's Stardust Memories
> made in 1980. It is not one of his well known films,
> and some people took it to be an attack on his fans.
I saw it on opening day. And, yes, I'd say there was good reason to have seen it as an attack on his fans. (Which is not to say that Woody has not made some great films since; but that recurring line something like "I loved your early films. The funny ones." represented a conscious break with his earlier madcap stuff, together with a calculated slap at those who had not kept pace with Woody's personal and cinematic growth, or deterioration, however one wishes to look at it.
> I'm not going to describe the actual opening scene
> other than to say that he's sitting in one of the
> old Erie Lackawana electrics looking at the other
> people in his car, and then looking out the window
> and seeing people in another train. Did it strike
> anybody else out there?
I must admit that, although I'm usually pretty aware of rail detail in films, I didn't remember that it was EL. I recall some sort of heavyweight coach, which at that time could have been EL or maybe still Jersey Central.
--
Alan Follett
Hercules, CA
It's Woody Allen's personal life that has deteriorated, and it bothers me, because he's such a symbol of the city, and he went from a symbol of smart and a little strange to kinky and a lot strange. Of course, the ultimate New York guy is Marv Albert, but lets not bite off more than we can chew.
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'll stick with close, but no cigar. By now, most of you have heard about Mr. Bill and Hillary buying a house in Chappaqua. That town will never be the same again. My brother-in-law's parents have or had a summer home there. My sister got married there.
Monica will probably be spotted at the train station.
OK, since I am allowed one "major" activity during the weekend so I don't do work the whole weekend, I was wondering if I could have a list of the trains that would possibly running Double-Deckers, time and line please. Thanks a lot lot!!!
Peace Out
-Clayton
With the exception of a few trains over Labor Day weekend, I've seen nothing but DDs on the Montauk Line for a couple of months--noth Scoots and long distance.
Also the last time I looked, both Port Jeff shuttles (one to Huntington, the other to Hicksville) have been DDs.
No guarantees, but this is what I've seen.
I'd try Montauk, since there are more of these, and if one somehow isn't a DD, the next should be.
Click for:
Weekend schedule eastbound
Weekend schedule westbound
I might have missed the strand on the flooding that happened recently. From the Bronx, it was VERY hard to get to the City. The entire city was a mess. The 1,2,3,4,5,6,9 were all out of service in city and were running extremly slow on the elevated Bronx sections. How does one of the largest cities in the world get thrown into chaos when 2 inches of rain drops. From the newspaper information, the cities sewage and drainage network is ment to handle 2 inches of rain I think in about 8 hours. Yes, the rain did pour, but there must be alternatives to transportation when events occur like that. You should have seen the fights at bus stops to get on buses and all the unhappy passengers trying to get to work or trying to get home. It is very serious, but u have to laugh it off.
So, my questions, what plans (if any) are taken for flooding situations such as this one? Is it just Bus service that is beefed up?
Next question- Late nights, i know many trains are transported to different yards and areas for storage for the morning rush, but why were #1's,9's,4's, and 6's rolling by on the #2 line? Off course they were out of service, but what were they doing so far from their lines in the first place? Does it have to do with changing car assignments?
Also, their are work trains that passes by most every night (sometimes more then once), one consistes of two redbirds pulling it looks life flat platforms to carry (waste?) Another work train consisted of an R-62 look-a-like only with 1 door on each side followed by flatbeds and another R62 look-a-like. What are the work trains used for? Is it just for transporting workers and materials?
Thx
Thomas
I hopped a plane just as the rain started, and didn't hear about the mess until I got back to town. They turned around my brother-in-laws Metro-North train at Mount Vernon, and he never made it to work. It seems that the big storm hit the Bronx and lower Westchester, not Brooklyn (the borough with no weather).
Speaking of Out of Service, today Amtrak was delayed for over three hours in the Wilmington, Delaware area due to flooding. I was tracking the progress of our recent houseguest returning home to North Carolina on the Carolinian today - she boarded at Metropark on time (6:38 AM), was 12 minutes late into Trenton, and 3 hours 16 minutes late into Philadephia. Arrival in Rocky Mount was at 6:01 PM, 3 hours 22 minutes behind. (This from the Amtrak web site.) She loved the trip north but somehow I think her opinion will have changed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hmm - I wonder what happened to Amtrak.
One does not often hear about flooding on old PRR lines. They are so overbuilt, that they usually ride it out very comfortably above the floodwaters. Unlike, say, drawbridges, the ROW itself does not suffer so much from the years of low/non maintainance...
An update: our friend called last night (while we were at services) and left a long message, which my wife didn't mention until this morning. Apparently they did make it into Philadelphia, contrary to what the Amtrak web site indicated, and were held there. The passengers were told it was because of problems with downed power lines near Wilmington. Eventually, they moved out of the station under electric power, a diesel was attached for a few miles to tow, and then at another station (Wilmington? I don't know) returned to electric power until they got to DC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are several Amtrak trains notorious for being late. There is the Three Rivers (to Pittsburgh). Many days 2-3 and more hours late. I think the rivers must be the Nile, The Danube and the Yangtzee :-) (YES- I do know the real rivers!)
The Silver Meteor/ Silver Star to Florida is also often 2-3 or more hours late. One day last week, the tv monitor at Newark Penn said that the Crescent (New Orleans/Birmingham/Atlanta) was 8 hours late!
I al also noticing that several Metro Liner trains are also starting to be 15-20-30 minutes late on an increasing frequency.
aren't delays on any mode inevitable? Why are trains considered to be held to a different standard versus air travel? IF someone is delayed for say 6 hours either on the plane or at the airport i've never heard anyone say "I'll never fly again!"
Excellent thought!!!
Actually, there are a few of us who hope we never have to get on an airplane again - but since that's the only alternative to not seeing my grandson, I'm sure I'll fly again soon! Most people seem to take air travel disruption as part of the routine, but the trains are reliable enough that a major disruption is the exception, not the norm. And, in this case, the trip north last week was our friend's first journey on a train in almost forty years. We just talked to her a few minutes ago and, as it turns out, she wasn't particularly bothered by the delay - apparently she had already found someone to talk to, so she was "in her element", as it were.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Larry --
Interesting that you had the same experience that I did. I was on a 7AM flight out of LGA that morning, and although I noticed that the roads were beginning to flood the trip to the airport was otherwise uneventful and my flight left right on time. Of course, the delays that plagued LGA all day eventually caused all flights back from Chicago to be cancelled and I had to spend the night.
One thing that I did notice from the chatter on the news and here at SubTalk is that everyone's favorite whipping boy -- the LIRR -- seemed to hold up much better than many other area agencies.
Chuck
9/12/99
Long Island itself didn't belted with rain as bad as points west.
Bill Newkirk
<>
sounds like the "Trash trains?"
1/9 trains on the 2 line go to 239th yard car wash
#6 trains laying up to 239 yard with 239 yard subway cars
#4 sometimes send its trains to 239 yard car wash also when Concourse yard car wash is closed.
long time waiting for the new subway cars. where are they going..what lines and when..if ever are they supposed to be year. heard september of 99 and nothing here yet. please let me know. as a rider on the Q, i dont like the bench seats on the r-40 and wish for the r-46 or r-68 on that line. but if we geetting the news cars,tell me(hopefully befreo the 63rd street tunnel is complete)
Nobody likes the seats. They're the best trains because of the front window. Tall people - short people we all can see out
The new r-143's are comming, but you won't ride thwm on the Q, because they're already assigned to the L. You surely won't ride the R-142's in the Q because they are assigned to the IRT lines 2 and 5.
Not even I like the seats on the Slant R40s. They're the most uncomfortable since the fiberglas benches on the R-7 and R-9 Eastern Division clunkers. The A/C and the RF window make up for it, though.
Wayne
Oh, come on now. Those old timers had a charm all their own with those marvelous sounds. (You've got to check out heypaul's tape - it puts you right on the train.)
Your reference reminds me of an article which appeared in the Daily News in early 1970. Some TA bigwig was out and about on the IND Queens line giving it a once-over. When he saw some token vending machines which dispensed the old 20-cent tokens, he wanted to get rid of them right then and there. The fare had just gone up to 30 cents. Next, he paused in front of an E train of R-6s and referred to it as a clinker. The he made a comment about poor maintenance when a train pulled in, supposedly of R-27s, and only one door leaf opened.
The MTA brass hadn't figured out back then that if you don't maintain the cars, then they're all going to be clinkers and all will have door panels that don't open. The MTA spent far more money trying to paint every car in the system their blue-and-white logo colors in the early 70s (not to mention the blue and white BMT station tiles from Hell) than they ever did on preventive maintenance.
The same can be said about automobiles as well. My R-32 of a Jeep is now at 373,000 miles and counting.
I wish I had kept some of those newspaper articles about the subway back then.
My iMac has lost its cookies and we are trying this message to see if they can be restored by posting a message.
That will reset your name and email address. To fix your message display parameters just click the Change Message Display link on the main subtalk page.
-Dave
I still have the problem. Everything was fine with Netscape 3.1. I was told that I should not use 3.1 with an iMac. When I went to Netscape 4.0.5 I lost the name cookie but retained the Email address portion. The iMac has spent four days in the shop and was upgraded to Netscape Communicator 4.6. Old Netscape preferences and the old Magic Cookies were trashed. My attempt to reset things with my posting last night failed. I am back to what I call half a cookie. I have the Email address portion set, but no name. All other problems including frequent disconnects and lock-ups seem to have been corrected, I think. I am at a loss as to what else to try.
My last try and I won't bother you guys again. I am posting this on Internet Explorer which is also available in an iMac. I have a feeling that the same problem exists here.
Has everyone set Netscape / Internet Exploder to accept cookies in their preferences? :) I've not had this problem on my G3 400, though when I moved over to it I did have to reset all my prefs (And to make all the PC people here Patterson green with envy - that's the only snag I had going from a 7600/132 to a G3 :)
Other than that, I'd try reinstalling the web browser - there should be no reason why an iMac should have these problems, as netscape doesn't really care what Mac your running on (the MacOS seperates the hardware from the software very well, unlike a certain other system...)
The current Macs seem to have that habit - although it only seems to be the one for SubTalk, at least on my G3. If you find a solution let me know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Really? Using what browser? My G3 using Netscape 4.6 has never had that problem.
It's a version of Netscape, approximately 4.5, I think, mildly customized by the @Home folks and furnished with my cable modem service. They call it Netscape@Home 1.6.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Using an iMac is your first mistake. If you must use a Mac (Personally, I prefer PCs) get yourself a G3, and load it with memory. It'll beat the pants off a PII-400.
-Hank :)
I'll disagree - although I have a G3 it's only because I need the larger monitor for my aging eyes. You can load an iMac with the same amount of memory that I have in my G3 (128 Mb) and the current iMac has a 333 MHz processor (my G3 has a 350). And you don't have to worry about Bill Gates' nonsense.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm glad I have WebTV. Don't understand any of this 'puter talk!!!
Web TV is good but carries a negitive stigma around here.
I've been using WebTV and another PC alternately since July. At the end of the month we'll finally have a PC at home and we'll lose the very limited WebTV.
WebTV's bad for a few reasons:
A. Slow, Slow, Slow and SLOW! It takes, literally, about 7-11 minutes for SubTalk to load completely as opposed to 2 on a slow day with the PC I'm using right now.
B. You can't download ANYTHING!
C. Any kind of long typing isn't worth the effort with the constant scrolling(from the bottom)if you lose your place or hit the space bar by accident. I made 80% of my webpage over WebTV. Oy!
D. Picture quality doens't seem as sharp.
It's good if all you're using it for is doing goofyness on the net. But if you really want to down and dirty with anything, WebTV is not for you.
(Besides, TV's were made for watchin', not for surfin'!)
What do you expect? WebTV is owned by the Billy boy Gates!
I actually never used subtalk until a month or so ago, because every time I tried, it was unbearably slow.
Once I tried using lynx, it is _so_ much faster in practice, and much easier to navigate. keep my fingers on the keyboard, arrow keys to choose a post, hit enter, read post, left arrow to go back, etc. For those of you who can use lynx or a text-mode browser, I heartily recommend it..
Subtalk actually loads faster with webTV than with my PC. It depends where you are.
I have WebTv and I never have had any problems with SubTalk. It usually loads right away. I have it set for 2 days messages (the default), when I had it set for more (such as eons) it took much longer to load.
Oh I did that too. 2 days is fine if you're a regualar poster. The "eons" option takes up to 4 minutes to load even at the best of times.
That's because there's several thousand messages for it to index and thread. If you set your options to Chronological rather than any form of Threaded it should run even faster. Plus you get all the unread ones bubbled to the top, so you start at the bottom of the ones you haven't read and work up.
I don't like the iMac for sevedral reasons. First and formost, it's limited expandability. It's not a machine that you can grow with. I think that we have now reached an apex with home PCs. I don't see most users neededing anything more powerful than a PII-400, which is now entry-level. With the iMac, you can't get a bigger HDD, you can't add much in the way of internal componants. You're limited to USB attachments. If the monitor burns out, you're screwed. (In fact, this is a problem with any 'All-in-One' system) If the computer burns out, you can't re-use the monitor.
-Hank
Mac advertises it that way - G3 and G4 models too - but my G3 actually has two serial ports on the back that aren't mentioned anywhere in the literature. I haven't looked at an iMac or a G4 to know about them. And USB is the wave of the future, so Mac is simply on the leading edge (again!) in that regard. There are USB hard drives out there too - not as fast as an interal one using the current technology but faster than the internal drives of only three or four years ago. I also have a Toshiba Tecra 8000 (notebook [laptop]) running Windows NT from the office and it too has a USB connection. For someone who wants to take up the minimum amount of space and can live with a 15" monitor the iMac is really an excellent choice; indeed, if they made one with a 17" tube I'd probably have bought that instead of my tower, just so as not to take up all that space under the desk. And it costs one heck of a lot less!
But, to stay at least slightly related to the spirit of this board, the photos on this site DO look better on the bigger monitor :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Bill Gates' nonsense is nothing compared to Bill Clinton's nonsense. Not even close, and never mind the cigar.
Tried to post this earlier, thought I did, but it never appeared.
I took my wife and 3 yr old son by car to the park and marina next to the Oyster Bay station today. Little did she know but it was for railfanning, to check out the small yard of diesels and bi-levels & check out the unused turntable!! Well I broke down in the parking lot, wouldn't start. (Electrical, turned over, no spark, probably distributor) Well a tow truck showed, he refused to take more than 2 passengers. I put them in the truck and decided to take the train. Caught the 8:19PM diesel (Thank G-d, the bi-levels too modern for the line.) As it was aready night I couldn't see a damn thing out the window. A shame, I'm gonna have ta come back in daylight. Train went very slow, I felt like a character on Pettycoat Junction!! Lots of crossings with whistles blowing. I never realized how close together Glen St and Glen Cove were. (Also Sea Cliff) Felt like I was on the 7Av Exp from Chambers to Park PL!!! They have to be the closest apart stations on the whole LIRR. (Closer than Jamaica & the 'ol Union Hall Street!!
I changed at Mineola for the main line to Hicksville where I could catch a bus home to East Meadow. What a difference betw. the 2 trainrides. The electric on the main line was extra speedy. Unfortunately the train was about 10 min late & I missed the last bus to E.M. by about 3 min so I ended taking a cab!!!
This was the 1rst time on the line since a 2nd Grade fieldtrip by train to Oyster Bay in '59 or '60.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
my COLOR QUIZ,
What a shame. At least with an old style distributor, you had a chance at a successful start out of the parking lot where as those Kawasaki techs would still be scratching their heads if it were the DEC30.
From what I understand, the shortest distance between LIRR stations is on the Long Beach branch between Centre Avenue and Oceanside. I believe those two stations are not much more than a mile apart -- with the East Rockaway station sandwiched in between.
From what my father tells me, in the earlier days of the LIRR there were actually 4 stations along this stretch -- Oceanside (at its current location), Atlantic Avenue (just south of the current East Rock), East Rock (just north of the current East Rock) and Centre Avenue (just north of the current station) -- I believe the four were merged into three sometime in the late 40's.
Having grown up on the OB branch of the LIRR, I was used to close together stations.
But then when I started riding the MBTA Commuter Rail, I found this situation was unique to the LIRR. On the Lowell Branch that I use every day to go to work, stations "Wedgemere" and "Winchester Center" are just a half mile apart. The diesel-drawn push-pull train doesn't even get up to 20 mph between stations. I think the only reason that both survive is that parking is limited (and maxed out) at each. Removing one station would remove half of the available parking.
[re two close-together MBTA stations kept open for parking reasons]
Metro North found a solution to a similar problem on the Hudson line. There were two nearby stations (Montrose and one who's name escapes me) with very limited parking. So Metro North built a new station, Cortlandt, roughly between the two, which then were closed. Cortlandt was designed with ample parking, though whether it's still sufficient is another matter.
From what I've seen, the parking at Cortlandt has been more than sufficient. I used to frequently take Amtrak from NYC to Albany and noticed that the parking lot had numerous spaces available.
9/11/99
I believe those two closed stations were Montrose and Crugers
Bill Newkirk
Inwood and Far Rockaway are very close; so are Broadway and Murray Hill (they skip stop 'em weekdays)
Others are Floral Park and Bellerose; Garden City and Country Life Press, the former Republic and current Pinelawn.
Wayne
[Others are Floral Park and Bellerose; Garden City and Country Life Press, the former Republic and current Pinelawn.]
I had the railfan window on the 5:41 express to Ronkonkoma last Friday, and out of curiosity I checked the running times between some of the bypassed stations. Merillon Avenue to Mineola was less than a minute, while Carle Place to Westbury was about 65 seconds.
Although all those mentioned are very close especially Garden City to Coun. Life Press, Unless I fell asleep and didn't realize it, Glen Cove & Glen Street seemed the closest I've ever seen!!! Almost like Chambers & Park Pl on the IRT 7Av exp!!!
>>>I fell asleep and didn't realize it, Glen Cove &
Glen Street seemed the closest I've ever seen!!! <<<
There was a plan by the MTA to close Glen Street, but it was thwarted; today, the old station building is being renovated. Mill Neck, on the same OB Branch, was not so lucky.
The Sea Cliff and Glen street stations are litteraly next to each other to. When I was a kid, I'd watch a train go into Sea Cliff, then head down the hill and over to Glen Street on my mountain bike, and watch it come out of Glen Street. I don't know WHY thos station are that close to each other. I gave up trying to figure oit out long ago.
My original posting that started this thread on Friday was about See Cliff/Glen St/& Glen Cove
Laurelton and Rosedale are very close together.
Massapequa and Massapequa Park stations are very close together; you can easily see one from the other. Platforms and parking lots at both are extremely crowded mornings. Not only that, the Massapequa Park lot is only available to village residents, so this increases the pressure at Massapequa.
I don't remember off the top of my head all the names, but the stations on NJT's Morris & Essex line through the Oranges seem very close together.
The stations on NJT Morris and Essex line which are so close together are East Orange and Brick Church...On local trains these stops are no more than 200 yards apart..the train barely gets up to 20 when it has to slow down. Actually they are so close together The Mid-Town Direct service into Penn only stops at Brick church and not East Orange due to the small distance between the two.
I know some Subtalkers are fans of Forgotten NY (www.forgotten-ny.com) so let me alert you to a new section:
The Street Necrology of NY, which opens the crypt, brushes away the cobwebs and lets you know where long-dead NYC streets are.
It's a work in progress, so I hope to include some transit-related stuff on the page as time goes by.
Meanwhile, keep looking for my regular updates to the site every week or so.
Cool stuff! It sure must have taken a lot of work. But let's be glad that there's nothing quite like Five Points today :-)
Last night there was some cool stuff going on at Times Square. At the same time, (both in service) N train R40 on the local track and R on the express track. Then, right after another N R40 on the express track but stopped with only 1 car in the station for a few minutes. They were really geting some use out of the downtown express track!
Funny, usually when I've seen trains on the express they've been N, not R. Twice I've been stopped in an R on the downtown local at 57th. An N pulls in on the express and they announce that it will leave first. I happened to be standing near the door, and amazingly I didn't get trampled as the entire train emptied out to run over to that N which arrived at Times Square about 30 seconds ahead of us.
stupid people just rushing over to catch a train that'll get them to the same stop the train they got off of only about a minute earlier if they just sat and waited... maybe its the only exercise they ever get running from train to train
Does anyone know how extension the B & O Signal Power are on NYCT today? I wonder if the Flushing, Lexington Avenue, 7th Avenue IRT Lines still have this type of 24VDC power. B stands for positive (+) and O stands for (-) power. "C" wasn't used for common because "C" was used for relay nomenclature for home controls (HC) or distant controls (JC).
hu)f e
As you all may remember, back when people started using the large bullets from the img. file, I wanted to use smaller bullets that I could custom design. On a discussion on the transit newsgroup, someone posted a character that was not on the keyboard, and this turned into a discussion of the ALT codes, and someone also mentioned RUN, charmap, and there I found that one font is a set of these bullets, and by using the appropriate tags, I could get this.
‹FONT FACE="BULLETS2" COLOR=#0000FF›h‹FONT COLOR=#757500›u)‹FONT COLOR=#0000FF›f ‹FONT COLOR=#FF5000›e‹/FONT›
The letters of these bullet characters do not correspond to the keyboard (as you can see). for the little brackets I used to substitute for the HTML tags, it is ALT 0139 and 0155
There are hollow bullets (like used on the old strip maps for part time service), but no diamond bullets. The "Bullets3" font, however, has triangles, which could be used, instead
I guess I didn't close the tags right (I did preview, but the preview doesn't show all of the other stuff that was changed.) Since this is still HTML, I hope it doesn't cause the problems the big bullets caused.
Please don't do that. Not everyone has the same fonts. Not everyone is using the same operating system that supports the same fonts. Not everyone even uses a graphical-based browser that can render the fonts. For instance on my machine your experiment looks like:
hu)f e
Plus, your HTML needs a little bit of work.
-Dave
Sorry
PT-1 Asian MetroCard goes on sale 7am on 9/20/1999. These booths )I have grouped stations to save space):
5av-N/R
57-N/R
14-A/C/E/1/2/3/9/4/5/6/L/N/R
Canal-6/J/M/Z/N/R/A/C/E/1/9
City Hall- N/R
Delancey/Essex- F/J/M/Z
Chambers/Brooklyn Bridge--J/M/Z/4/5/6
Broad- J/M/Z
59th (BROOKLYN)-N/R
Ave U-D/N
Neck Rd- D
8av-L/N
86(Brooklyn )-N
Ft Hamilton Pkwy-N
New Utrecht- N
Bay Pkwy-M/B
Queens(boro)Plaza-E/F/G/R/N/7
36 to Roosevelt-E/F/G/R/7
Sutphin Blvd- F
Parsons Blvd- F
Grand- B/D/Q
E Broadway- F
Houston-1/9
Christopher-1
Astor Pl-6
23-6
28-6
33 to 69- 7
(74- see Roosevelt-EFGR)
82-7
90-7
Junction Blvd-7
103-7
111-7
Willet's Point-7
Main Street-7
This will be a big release- there will be follow -up deliveries for two more weeks.
SOURCE: Official AFC Bulletin
9/11/99
subwaybuff,
Thanks for you info. Us collectors appreciate your imformation. Keep up the good work !
Bill Newkirk
Yes, I haven't said thank you recently, so THANK YOU.
Mr t__;-)
I am a little sick and tired of seeing you weak minded transit freaks going crazy and ga-ga over every promotional metrocard being released. If you want to go crazy over metrocards, go crazy over the valuable ones. Like the original blue METROCARD which actually had the old MTA logo on it. (This was the test card used by 3000 people in 1993). Or the test paper magnetic bus transfers from the 1993 failure of the Cubic farebox that actually contained a swipe reader for the metrocard. Or better yet, the test farecards for both of the experimental models of turnstiles that were tested in 1988-1989 (Perey and Cubic). Finally, there was a test of the GFI farebox in 1988-1989 on Staten Island Express buses with the farecard slot that was never really used.
To each his or her own, James. I'm not a MetroCard collector either but one of the beauties of living in this country is that everyone is free to make their own choices about almost everything. Some folks choose to, you choose not to. Vive l'difference!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I am a Promotional MetroCard collector and I took an offense to that message left by James. Anon_e_mouse is right, to each his/her own! So let us go ga-ga over the promotionals while you go ga-ga over what you want to.
Please don't bash what your can't understand!
Trevor
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650/NYCTransit.html
TransiTALK
I think your charicterization of collectors as "Weak minded transit freaks" is narrow minded and unfortunate. Why would you join a community like this one and then trash the majority of the members, who collect transit memorabilia in one form or another? perhaps you belong elsewhere?
To each their own is RIGHT! I don't collect Metro Cards (I use Fun Passes) - I collect subway car numbers! Have been doing for thirty years, since 1969. Weak minded? YOU try keeping track of all the R32 moves lately! Harrumph!
Wayne
If you use Fun Passes so often, wouldn't it be more economic to use the 7-day or 30-day unlimited pass?
[I am a little sick and tired of seeing you weak minded transit freaks going crazy and ga-ga over every promotional metrocard being released]
In every group of folks there is always one or two who get realy annoyed at others who don't see the hobby exactly the way they see it.
I for one try to keep in mind that I don't know everything about any part of mass transit. This site is a great learning place, but there are parts of it that don't interest me that much, BUT that's just fine with me. So, James who says you have to answer the phone just because it rings ? Don't read some of the post, you'll be happerier !!!
Meanwhile please TONE THE FLAME DOWN.
BTW, I happen to have an "orange" transfer and a "M" transfer and a old blue before it even said "Introducing MetroCard. Big City, Fast Card, Fare Deal."
Mr t__:^) ... note my smilie !
In the past couple of days there has been a blitz of the old DD commercial that inaccurately has a MetroNorth commuter train with a LIRR M-1 interior. Obviously, for whatever reasons, they filmed the two scenes on different rail lines (go figure).
Doug aka BMTman
Are you sure it's not a Metro-North M-1? And why do they patch what sounds like an ACMU into that ad too?
9/12/99
The interior shot was on a LIRR M-1. The give away is that the LIRR M-1 seat backs don't have cushions like Metro North. Also if you watch closely (recording with VCR and playback at slow speed helps) the opening scene seems to be shot in Long Beach station,check the station capoies. The M-1 has a blue stripe at window level (obviosly installed for the commercial). The plot of course is a commuter get on a train,sits down and when the train enters tunnel carload of passengers vie for doughnuts. Nice touch,but don't try to fool us railfans !!
Bill Newkirk
> the LIRR M-1 seat backs don't have cushions like Metro North.
Also, the emergency instructions sticker looks different. The commercial shows the LIRR sticker.
--Mike
Has anyone seen those Coke ads with the kids in the L.A. Metro?
I have.
Or..how bout the new Burger King one that seems to use the same fake R32 from the IKEA commercial.......
The woman with the donuts appears to baord at a station whose canpopies resemble Jamaica
9/19/99
It's a fast scene , recording on the VCR and playing back at slow speed will solve this. One first aired I too believed it was Jamaica,then I thought it was Long Beach. Haven't recorded it yet to find out. Hey,they should have used the C3's. When the A/C fails the chocolate doughnuts melt and nobody steals her precious doughnuts.
Bill Newkirk
Somebody told me that the station was on the Upper Hudson line of Metro North. The tunnel the train goes into is supposedly in the Breakneck Bridge vicinity, so I've been told.
Yes, that's definately the tunnel at Breakneck Ridge. Don't know about the station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The location of one secne where there is a tunnel on one side and a cut on the other is north of the Garrison NY station, as for the tunnel it is NOT Breakneck Tunnel as there are two double track bores side by side, my guess for the tunnel is Otisville NY on the Port Jervis Line, as there are no single track tunnels on the Hudson Division with that type of ornate brick work on the portal. Incidentaly the background on the interior scenes looks like somewmere between 125thst and the Harlem river bridge
Mea culpa! 35 years ago I was a regular passenger on the line, but I've only ridden it a couple of times in the last five years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I would like to correct my last post about the location, after cacthing the commercial again I realized I made a mistake about the tunnel, there was no ornate brick work so it leads me to believe that it was the north portal of the Garrison tunnel, sorry
On a R-110A pic I saw on this sight there is a switch "Zero Speed By-Pass". What does that do? And what does the emergency fan switch for?
I don't know about the fan switch. The 0-speed bypass allows
the doors to be opened even when the speed sensor thinks the
train is still moving.
[ The 0-speed bypass allows the doors to be opened even when the speed sensor thinks the train is still moving. ]
They have a switch that does that for the whole train? That sounds dangerous. Why not force them to manually key open each door?
I guess it's so they can operate the doors even if the speed sensor is malfunctioning. But if that's the case, wouldn't they want to evacuate the train manually and take it out of service?
In Philly, the new M-4 trains allow the T.O. to open the doors when train slows to below 5 or 10 MpH. (I'm not sure of the exact speed, but it's surprisingly fast.) If you sit next to the cab, you can hear the relay click as the train is about to stop. They routinely open the doors while the train is still moving - the way the doors on some elevators open before they have come to a complete stop.
Do they open them as soon as the relay clicks?
Seems that if you timed it right, you could make the station stops slightly more efficient if you had the doors slam completely open right as the train stopped. But, I would think this would entice passengers to start walking when the train was still moving, and they may fall when it stops (depending on how hard the brakes are working)
Why bother stopping at all? Slow down to 5 MPH, open the doors, and people can jump on or off as the train goes by. It would make it a lot harder to hold the doors, wouldn't it....
How can u open just as the train stops, have you pointed to the indication board and ensured that a platform actualy exsits outside your window?
IIRC, the doors on Montreal's Metro trains would start to open before the train would come to a full stop. At least they did when the system first opened. I haven't ridden on the Metro since 1971, so I don't know if that still holds true today.
The doors on Expo Express trains didn't open until the train came to a full stop.
Yes, they do, Steve. I rode the Montreal Metro over July 4th weekend.
I'd venture to guess that the emergency fan switch would be used to cut-off the fans on all the cars in a train, during a smoke condition?
Just got back from seeing the movie _Stir of Echos_ (definitely worth seeing), and as it was set in Chicago I've got a question regarding METRA. An important scene takes place at the Logan Street station (Is there such a place? Guess this makes it two questions) and involves two police officers who seem to be on routine patrol within the station. They're regular Chicago police. Now, does METRA have its own police force that patrols its stations, or do they rely on the Chicago P.D.? Note that I'm engaging in one of my favorite pasttimes besides railfanning, namely spotting movie bloopers :-)
By the way - the movie featured a good view of a METRA bilevel, as well as some scenes of the L passing in the background.
There is a logan square station on the "L" but I could not find a logan stop on Metra but that just means I could not find it. Other people are more familiar with Metra than I am.
Metra has no security that I know of they would use the police from each city.
I also see chicago cops on the CTA from time to time.
I haven't seen the movie, but Logan Square station is underground.
It sounds like you are describing Jefferson Park Station, where the
METRA and "L" meet.
[I haven't seen the movie [Stir of Echos], but Logan Square station is underground.
It sounds like you are describing Jefferson Park Station, where the
METRA and "L" meet.]
"Logan Square" as shown in the movie was a substantial above-ground structure. There was no indication whether the L served the station; all you could see were METRA ticket windows (one of the minor characters was a METRA ticket agent) as well as a Santa Fe freight approaching the station.
How hard would it be to get a job as a commuter train engineer for a railroad like Metro-North, LIRR, METRA, etc?
Would it be possible to get one right out of high school?
Thanks,
Brandon
PS--Are there any railroad engineers that post to this board?
LIRR almost always hires from within. LIRR is not civil service. You have to send a resume for everything.
The most direct way to get an operating position is to take another job first, like station cleaner. After a year you can put in for an operating position.
There are only so many jobs. I know that for the more numerous train service personnel (conductors and brakeman) count on 15 years on the job before you can hope to begin to pick halfway decent runs, like from the terminals you want at decent hours.
The railroad owns you. Don't expect to call in sick to take the day off for your kids' dance recital. This is not everybody's cup of tea.
Railroads like NS are hiring, but it helps if you're already an engineer. Be prepared to move wherever they tell you and spend days on the road if you can land a job.
Sounds like the T.A. in some ways; The crew office not giving you the day off when you put in a request 30 days prior to an event you had plans for.
The MTA is unified only when it is convenient for its' agemcies!
Sounds like the NYPD!! I know cops who had to call the morning of their wedding to see if they got off!!
P.S. What is NS?
NS or NSC = Norfolk Southern.
They can't move some of their trains because of insufficient crews.
Would it be possible to go directly from station cleaner to engineer? Or, do you have to be a conductor or some other type of on board personell first?
You don't have to be a conductor or brakeman before engineer. Nor is one a promotion to the other. Different unions, too.
AFAIK very few trainmen ever become engineers. They'd give up all their seniority and go to the bottom of the engineer heap.
But there are many more conductor-type jobs (probably triple) so your odds are much better of landing one of those.
[You don't have to be a conductor or brakeman before engineer. Nor is one a promotion to the other. Different unions, too.]
It is true you don't have to be a brakeman or conductor before qualifying to engineer; however, I knew a few "then" recently employed brakemen on the Reading in the 1970's who applied for and qualified to become enginemen. This was because the Reading found itself lacking qualified enginemen in the early 1970's. It was logical to promote brakemen/conductors, as these men already were qualified in the rules and the road.
The UTU, or United Transportation Union, represents brakeman, conductors and enginemen. The BLE, or Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers, represents only enginemen.
Of course brakeman and conductors, who where already members of the UTU, would remain with the UTU after promoted to enginemen. This was done to retain their overall seniority. Newly hired enginemen always opted for the BLE.
I read just this week that the BLE has ousted its President in a show of "non-support" for the merger with the UTU ("Cinders" NRHS Philadelphia Chapter monthly publication).
The qualications to become an engineer is to have common sense, ability to follow the rules, be available for work, at any time, in the first 10 years, and the desire to make money. Although the working conditions are not very good, the money is good for a man or woman who does NOT want to invest four years in college.
Jim K.
Chicago
All very interesting. Thank you all for your help
NYCTA notwithstanding, in traditional railroading Conductor is a step up, often a promotion, from Engineer.
The Conductor is the guy in charge of the train. Most of the "conductors" you see on the LIRR are actually brakemen who cover jobs as "assistant conductor" or "collector." Unlike the rest of the crew, collectors do not stay with the rest of the crew for the entire day's work, they may bounce back and forth among many trains.
I'm not judging the difficulty or responsibility of anyone's job, just saying what tradition is.
On LIRR, full conductors and engineers are more or less equal in stature and pay. Also on LIRR, AFAIK, all conductors/brakemen are UTU, all engineers BLE.
As to "the money is good for a man or woman who does NOT want to invest four years in college," not every responsible job in life can be adequately prepared for inside the ivy-covered walls.
While the conductor is in charge of the train, on freight railroads, the engineer is the senior crewman and gets paid more. If you hire on as a conductor now, you agree to be trained as an engineer when the position opens up, and if you do not make it as an engineer, you are let go. On freight, conductor is no longer a seperate career path, so to speak.
The trouble with the LIRR System is simple. If you go from one title to another, you better be sure you are gonna make it. From what I'm told, if you go to Engineer and can't cut it, there's no going back to your former title.
There is. PROVIDED you paid your union dues the union of
your previous title. Now how many bother with that? Ex: A
car inspector in the Brotherhood of Railway Carmen,
decides to take a promotion. He takes it and joins the
International Assoc. of Machinists. Now he works on
engines. If he continues to pay his dues and remains in
good standing as a member of the BRC, he will retain his
seniority and the right to bump someone for his old job
back at any time he chooses. Including if he is demoted.
This works with all the RR titles.
If a man is promoted to mangement, most are smart enough
to keep their membersips in good standing. We all know how
fickle management is.
I still pay dues to the BRC to this day. It's been years
since I worked as a car man. I also joined the BLE. As a
certified engineer I could. You don't actually have to be
working in the craft. Certification being the only
criteria.
BLE is working to get the NY&A engineers represented by
them. Despite their current union the UTU. The logic
behind this, is that then the engineers employed by LIRR
would have bumping rights over all jobs on the RR. In
effect a back door attemt to get their old frieght jobs
back. I don't think this will work. The LIRR crews aren't
going to take the $10/hr pay cut. And if they force NY&A
to pay LIRR wages, NY&A will go out of business. They
operate at a loss as it is, ever since the stone stopped
running.
This would also effectively lay off all the NY&A crews.
LIRR will not allow them to operate passenger equipment,
and they are not going to train them.
BLE's move isn't unprecedented. When the PennCentral broke
up, crews had bumping rights betwen AmTrak and ConRail. The big difference was everyone was qualified on everything already. And they already were in the same unions.
I think the LIRR division BLE is really being F**d up. The time for this fight was 1996, and all they're doing now is screwing a fellow union.
The UTU is under AFL-CIO Sanction for trying to DESTROY BLE, Any AFL-CIO union now has the right to recruit and organize UTU members as if they didn't even have a union. Go to www.ble.org and read the letter that AFL-CIO President John J. Sweeney sent to the UTU. Behavior like that of the UTU is why America has the WORST working conditions in the industrialized world and the most overpaid CEO'S and the anti-worker Repubilcans want a TAX CUT what we really need is a 60% tax bracket, then you'd see those pseudo-patriotic fat cats falling over each other to renounce their citizenship and move to some low tax island somewhere like William F. Buckley, Editor of National Review magazine suggested. Of course, they really wave the flag over defense spending so Federal dollars can go right to big business,instead of schools, MASS TRANSIT,etc
For all his staunch unionism, Mike Quill openly allowed his TWU members to scab on the MBA/CBA strike in the '50s, breaking those unions and consolidating TWU power in the TA.
It was not an attractive chapter in labor history.
It's a case of have and havenot. BLE members are more valuble to the Railroads. UTU membmers can be trained and put to work. Whereas BLE members must be certified. So the UTU needs the BLE, and when they voted not to merge, it left a bitter feeling.
I can't say as I agree with them, but they are in a desperate position. UTU needed that merger to give them bargaining strength they don't have. BLE told em' to hit the road.
So now they are stealing each other's members? I'm glad I got out of NY&A when I did. Those guys are doomed.
Hopefully the freight volume on the NY&A Routes is not too price sensitive, giving the operator (NY&A) the freedom to adjust rates to make up for higher labor costs. THE RAIL FREIGHT ALTERNATIVE IN THE NYC METRO AREA IS ESSENTIAL TO HIGHWAY SAFETY AND CAPTIVE SHIPPERS
No argument here. But if Larry McCaffery can't make money, he will close down. As it is, the rates went down when NY&A took over. They were counting on the lower overhead to make it.
Hopefully, the traffic (and the jobs) won't go away when the NY&A does. But I've put up with Satanomics far too long to give a rat's patootie about McCaffery. As for the BLE, I should think that they have a moral obligation to see that the NY&A employees have first crack at any LIRR job openings.
Satanomics. I like that.
BLE. They could care less about NY&A crews. They're UTU.
Larry McCaffery will not go broke.
And freight service will continue.
Reasons why include that there are several LPG reccievers in Suffolk Co. Since NYS won't allow that stuff on the highway, for good reason, it has to go via rail.
If the trains are still running, then the UTU NY&A crews should be accepted by the BLE and assinged according to seniority and L'il Larry should take his bags of cash and buy an abandoned piece of track and run trains on it if he wants a Lionel set to play with. Besides, he can then staff it with MBA interns (idiots) so they can learn ADVANCED SATANOMICS. LIVE BETTER WORK (AND VOTE) UNION!!!
Hey Harry. I like this guy!
the only way to show some muscle is for the unions members of Metro North/LIRR/NJ Transit/ New York CityTransit/MABSTOA/LI BUS to strike simultaneously and paralyze the area...
Great idea. It would probably be the only way to piss off enough people to get the legislatures to restore the ban on collective bargaining with public employee unions.
What? Are you that naive to think that simple legislation can stop people's sentiments? Typical liberal knee jerk reaction, that government can solve all the problems.
If we're treated like dirt, then we damn well have the right to fight back with every weapon at our disposal. Let the MTA think of that first. Taylor law or no. We have taken the brunt of reduced budgets and poor work rules for a decade. Now they're sitting on a plie of cash WE MADE for them, it's time for reciprocity. Please. don't tell me you thought that profit (I call it what it is) all came from MetroCard?
This is not a question of liberal or conservative, right or wrong. It's a question of dumb or smart, of how to get where you want to go. If public employee unions ever manage to coordinate witheach other to tie the NYC metro area in a knot, they run the risk that they will lose popular support, make an enemy of all transit passengers, and suffer the same consequences as the air traffic controllers. Right now, NYC is a pro-union town. If MTA management is as anti-labor as you portray it, "you ain't seen nuttin' yet," if you lose the support of the passengers. While a rope may be useful, you can break it if you over-estimate its strength.
Support of the passengers is not for us, rather against
the MTA beauracracy. The public thinks we're all a bunch
of overpaid sloths. We could never really count on them
out side of safety issues affecting them. Heck even OPTO
doesn't bother them enough to get mobilized.
All the MTA agencies would never strike or coordinate a
job action together. A variety of reasons conspire against
it in the MTA's favor. Foremost being all the various
contracts have no strike clauses or federal cooling off
periods. It's virtually impossible to time all those
contracts to expire at the same time to allow a concerted
job action. Not to mention that the railroad employees
generally look down on transit workers, and would NOT be
inclined to assist us.
We are trying to enlist the aid of other municipal unions
however. The city relies on "pattern bargaining" to keep
everyone inline so to speak. So since the LIRR/UTU
contract gave the Cnductors 11%, we can expect the TA to
hold us to that. Which is fine with me. But since we are
the first city union to have it's contract come up, all eyes will be on TWU's success or failure on Dec 15. All the other municipal unions will be following during 2000.
About PATCO, to me it's like comparing apples and oranges. Whenever someone with cold feet (or something to loose) about a stike wants to put fear into the hearts of union members, they mention Reagan and the Air Traffic controllers. Those guys were a few hundred easily replaced by military controllers. We aren't. If all the clerks walked, TA would just let everyone ride for free. If the bus operators all walked, those jobs could all be filled rather quickly with other licensed drivers. BUT IF WE ALL WALK AT THE SAME TIME, 32,000 OF US?
Forget NS, they have a BAD rep. as a place to work, CSX is OK
9/12/99
Yesterday,my friend Mark W.,his girlfriend and I rode from Grand Central to Dyre Avenue on the (5). We focused on the redbirds but since we had no cameras,photos were not taken. This was a good chance for me to reacquaint myself on the remaining Redbirds since my own Redbirds (the R-30's) are long gone. Outside of the usual scratched up windows I did notice the unbelievable rust problem aroung windows and destination sign frames. One car leaving East 180th St. (car # unknown)had a hole in the side carbody underneath the signboxes large enough to pass a calzone through. If me and all you subtalkers should find a reason to "get those last shots" of the Redbirds is not because of the threat of the R-142's,but the the rust problem will only get worse making the cars a pitiful sight to photograph. We spotted at least a couple of cars that got the "bondo" traetment with repaint. So with the hot summer cooling down,the skies clearing up of humidity let's all Revisit those Redbirds shoot some Kodachrome before it all too late and we say "damn I should have photographed them". To all you Redbird subtalkers,now I know what the fuss is all about.
Bill Newkirk
Yes all redbird fans should take full avantage by rideing the redbird since there on the last year. I have been luck to operate the Redbirds. Yesterday I was working my reguler job on the No.2 Line so I may have seen you. Yesterday on my last trip going to Flatbush I was operating a single car No.9225 the 2nd car was 9130.
That's not a single - that's an Odd Couple. Those two have lost their mates and are "remarried". #9212 and #9115 also constitutes an "odd couple".
Wayne
The theme of my visit next month will be Ride the Redbirds for that very reason. Who knows if they'll still be around next year at this time. I will miss them for sure, especially their railfan windows. Sounds as if Rusty the Redbird would be an appropriate nickname for some of the real rustbuckets.
Believe me, the body doctors seem have been burning the midnight oil lately trying to keep up with the rust epidemic, and as a result, many of the worst cases have been remedied. The R33s which ply the #2 line seem to have gotten the most attention, along with some of the older R26 and R28 Redbirds from the #5 line, though some serious cases still exist there (i.e. #7884-5 - it may be repaired by now - a SEVERE case of rustitis there). They seem to have neglected the R29 cars as a matter of course - some of them have serious rust problems, especially those from the #6 line, such as #8570-1, #8582-3, #8598-9 and #8616-7. The #7 line R36 cars also seem to have been attended to.
Wayne
Rustitis? I like that. I think it's safe to assume they didn't use Rustoleum as a primer when the Redbird red paint was applied.
Dave has just posted pictures and text from my ride on the X2000 demonstration train, back on April 8, 1993. Enjoy!
Nice pics, Todd - especially the "special effects" on the photo inside the engine.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Nice Todd
I rode it out here in Wisconsin from Milwaukee to Portage and back but we never made it over 80 mph. It was a nice train.
What are they useing for the new electrified NE corridor? The X-2000 didnt make the cut did it??
The people from ABB were decent to work with though.
Nope, ABB didn't make the cut. The ACELA train has now been delayed until "sometime" next year... the first trainset had problems out in Pueblo at the DoT test site. There is a press release on the Amtrak Web site about the troubles, which are centered around the trucks (wheel sets).
The exact reason is something called "truck hunting", where the trucks start bouncing back and forth on the track. The E-60 is supposed to be notorius for this too. I'm not sure WHY they're having this problem, though it should be interesting to see how, or if, they can engineer it out.
This specific problem is very common, even on freight equipment at the low speeds freight operates at. Often, empty freight cars are restricted to a lower speed than full ones to prevent excessive hunting.
A new truck design will often have these problems. The dynamics of a truck operating at speed, with all the various suspension devices on it, with the weight of a train on it, on various track is really complicated to predict. So they have to build it and see what happens. Amtrak had an aggressive schedule for Acela, for better or for worse, that couldn't accomodate the not-easily solved hunting problems, so the trains will be delayed. They will basically tinker with it, on pretty much a trial and error basis I think, until they get it right.
This item, plans for the Concourse-NYW&B connection came up on ebay.
Board of Transportation, City of New York, Engineering Bureau.
Route and General Plan, Route No. 106-E, Burke Avenue,
Webster Avenue to Kingsland Avenue, The Bronx. Dated May 17, 1937.
Official blueprint showing elevations from sea level/mean high water and track location along Burke Avenue from junction with New York, Westchester & Boston Railway
to Webster Avenue.
Since there are a lot of my colleagues out there who really know their stuff, here's one for you. Does anybody out there have a clue if their are going to be any fan trips on old subway cars like they did in the 1970's? I have pictures on the website and they must have been fun but I haven't heard of any lately. Some on let me know.
Not this year. (and what do you mean "like they did in the 70s"? Until last year there were around 5 a year, 4 on the D-Types and one on the Low-V's) We just talked about this within the past week here on SubTalk.
-Dave
There should be no problem with the big bucks as far as the NYCTA is concerned. A few years ago the TA had no problem leasing the D types for a movie filming no doubt getting plenty of dough for it. The R30 cars sold to the production companies for DIE HARD and Money Train made them $300,000 each, not including the retrofitted R-22 armored cars. That kind of money should have been used to fund museum projects, including labor costs devoted to movie funding. One movie should pay for materials and a portion of labor involved in Museum upkeep. I heard the costs for using the R-10 cars and the Bergen St station in the film Jacob's Ladder ran well over $100,000 for the entire filming, including the transportation of the train by the crew who would otherwise be sitting on the extra board. I'd bet the TA charged their work assignment to the movie, rather than regular work accounts and use the extra $$$ to repair the rustbuckets that need repair. What the museum currators should do is tell upper management that the cars will not be ready when Hollywood knocks on the door and the TA requests them.
.... but NYC Transit doesn't own the D-Types - the Railway Preservation Corporation does. So what's the connection?
--Mark
9/12/99
The news does not look good. There are no subway fan trips in the foreseeable future because of the following. Extensive overhaul or rebuilding of elderly museum cars which translates into big bucks.
The B types are undergoing restoration,but the cars are worked on Tuesday nights at Coney Island Shops by volunteers. Don't get me wrong,I give those volunteers all the credit in the world for coming home filthy and not receiving a paycheck for their work. But The B types haven't run on their own power since 1980 and they have been out of the loop for too long. Although the D Types have run recently,they too need some work. The condition of the bodies are not the best and need work,NEED BIG BUICKS!. The R1-9's also need the same extensive work as the B Types,not having run on their own power since the early 1980's. The IRT 1938 World's fair car need the same exstensive work too. And ditto for the R-16's and evrything else languishing outside Coney Island Shops. What those cars need is some kind of sponsorship,BIG BUCKS for supplies,equipment and manpower. Also commitment to see the job being done.
This doesn't mean a special restoration to satisfy railfans,but other uses for the cars such as movie shoots,special promotions. Just recently the 100th birthday of Duke Ellington was celebrated. For a special touch to commerate his signature tune "Take the A train" dignitaries boarded a special train of R-38's for a rolling concert.
Now wouldn't the museum R1-9's have been better? They just weren't available. Come 2004 the IRT celebrates the century mark,yet no plans for getting the LOW-V trailer and 1938 World's Fair car exist. It seems that politics also plays a hand in this. With the NYC subway system a permanent political football,word leaking out of "Retired" old subway cars being restored would set off a fire storm. So it looks like we're caught between a rock and a tunnel wall! How about the possibility of some kind of landmark status or ISTEA grant?
Time is running out,rust never sleeps what are your suggestions?
Bill Newkirk
It's a very slow process to rebuld the museum fleet. I'm one of the volunteers. R4 491(original 401) is also being worked on. Not all the volunteers show up every Tuesday. I haven't been able to because I'm out on compensation. I work for TA. Brian
Brian: you are to be commended for the work you are doing as a volunteer, you and the rest of the crew. Doesn't the TA know that there is such great interest in restoring some of those old "D" type Triplexes and running them on the Sea Beach and Brighton Beach routes? I guess not but I'm sure if people who lived in New York approached some people on the City Council, maybe they could prevail upon the TA to get off its duff and refurbish some cars. Or am I just dreaming?
Fred,
You should have been on the Nostalgia Special of the D-Types last October. The NY Transit Museum operated the special on the lines they ruled so many years ago, the Brighton and Sea Beach lines.
Unfortunately, I don't know at this point when the D-Types will roll again. They're not in the best shape right now, so their future on the road is in question. Put the work in the hands of the right people and the work will be taken care of. Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be any interest right now. (I'm particularly disappointed that the IRT Lo-Vs aren't running this year. I'd guess as a concellation, I'll go down to Coney Island to see the cars.
Cheers,
Stef
Stef: I feel like I just took an arrow to the heart. I never heard of this in any flyer otherwise I would have took time off, flown to New York to be in on this. YUK. It's a bummer. Somebody out there,-------if the D Triplexes are run again on my line PLEASE let me know. I feel like hell right about now.
You're not alone. I've missed out on those fantrips, too. I would love to take a ride on the Triplexes someday.
9/14/99
Fred,
You're not dreaming. As I said in an earlier post the transit system has allways been a political hot potato. If the cars were restored and the news media got a hold of it,the public and politicians would howl! It seems never enough money is being spent on the system as far as the riding public is concerned. Restoring old retired subway cars that are considered decommissioned would give them fits. Perhaps maybe there is a rich uncle out there who can adjust his will for the sake of the D-types!!
Bill Newkirk
Bill: Right about now, I'd like to trade places with Donald Trump-----his money for mine. Then you'd see something change.
9/15/99
Fred,
AMEN TO THAT !!
Bill Newkirk
Money isn't really the big issue. Labor is. If all the people who moan and complain about the poor state of the museum equipment, hell if half showed up to work on them, things would get taken care of.
The D types aren't unique with their problems either. ALL those cars need something or other. Nothing really bad, asthetics.
Most of it isn't technical, scrape and paint, wipe and sweep. The really hard stuff can be handled by the few trained people who are already involved. Now they are stuck doing the grunt work like sanding and painting.
We don't need Trump, we need YOU!
How 'bout Fall in NY at Branford??
Trolley Museum of NY will be running a subway car to be announced later from the Hudson River Maritime Museum MU with the Ex South Brooklyn Railway Whitcomb locomotive. Also on the subject, the three phase power rectifiers were online for tests on Saturday and except for a lighting problem, 6398 behaved very well. It is one of the choices for the MU in October. If the MU is accomplished, a contact shoe jumper will be connected from the main generator to the subway car involved.
6398 usually behaves well. I stay in touch with the people who work on that car.
MU between a diesel and a subway car? Is that possible?
I'm just trying to understand the configuration. The subway will be getting it's power from the rectifier, eh? I don't suppose it will be possible for the diesel to supply some power to the subway car, would it?
If it does happen, I'd certainly pay to see it!!!
-Stef
That's been done before. I've seen it on excursions and transfers.
[ MU between a diesel and a subway car? Is that possible?
I'm just trying to understand the configuration. The subway will be
getting it's power from the rectifier, eh? I don't suppose it will be possible for the diesel to supply some power to the subway car, would
it? ]
Most anything is possible :) I dunno what they're planning here, though. The diesel they're using most likely is a Diesel-electric, and therefore has a generator set on-board. I dunno what the voltage of that unit might be, though it may be ~600V, in which case, it could be used to power the subway car. That's what it sounded like to me from his description. I'm not sure if those locos were designed for that kind of thing or not, though, or how it would be hooked up.
You could probably fairly easily power a couple of subway cars off of the LIRR power-pacs. I'm pretty sure they outputted 600VDC. I'm not sure how their std locomotive controls, or their 24RL braking systems would MU, though -- probably not practical for SMEE, but you might be able to use them to control an older AMUE/AMRE car.. Now, that would look really funny. Imagine a set of pre-war subway cars (or even MP-54s) traveling through non-electrified territory pushing or pulling an emasculated F unit around..
It's odd, but I'm getting this feeling that the Kingston Folks are attempting a standard railroad practice. While the locomotive is the primary power, the subway car involved acts almost as a control car, equipped with a cab for push-pull configuration, except that it sounds like 6398 will be fully functional (not unless the traction motors are cut out). 6398 (assuming that's what they're using) can't run on it's own at this point, but will run provided that the Whitcomb Loco gives it power. What an odd item! I'd certainly travel that way if I could to see it....
Gee, what if we could do that at Branford? Something new, something different!!! I'll drink to that!!!!
-Stef
[ Gee, what if we could do that at Branford? Something new, something
different!!! I'll drink to that!!!! ]
I think there used to be a diesel loco on the property at some point. I think that it is a good idea to have some piece of non-electric equipment available, if only for emergencies (either power problems, line problems, etc., to at least be able to hostle stuff around and put things away.
What Harold (dubiously concealing his name) was referring
to is the lash up of old #9. Our Whitcomb diesel, formerly
of SBK. She has two engines. One could be wired to the 600
in put on 6398. We have an old IND 10' flat with an H2a
draw head on one end and a knuckle on the other. Just pull the SAP angle on the R-16. You will still have emergency braking on the consist. Independent braking on the loco or the '16 only.
This is for an NRHS tour on Sat the 16 of Oct. Our trolley
wire is up for the yard, and we just got our rectifiers on
line. Problem is there's not enough wire up yet. So to get up a little fleet besides 120, we're doing this.
Good luck with the lashup, Erik and Harry. I hope it works well.
I hope sometime in the future, that I'll make it to Kingston to see the R16. Long live the SMEE cars!!!!
-Stef
Fred, while true that the TA's museum fleet won't be plying the rails anytime soon. If you have an itch that just has to get scratched try the several local museums, particularly when they are having special events:
- Shore Line @ Branford = Oct 9th & 10th
- Sea Shore @ Kennebunkport
- Trolley Museum @ Kingston
- CT Trolley Museum @ Warehouse Point
These and others within a few hours drive all have subway/rapid transit collections in addition to a stable of vintage trolleys.
A special event like Columbis Day at Branford is great because the subway cars are packed giving you the feel of those good old days.
This past June they even smelled like the good old days :-(
i.e. it was a very hot weekend.
Mr t__:^)
Where exactly is the Shore line Trolley Museum?
Shore Line, AKA BERA, is just North of New Haven, CT.
On route 95 look for sign for exit #51. Continue North on service road (may be marked as Route #1) past the trolley on display in front of a mall. I believe it's a couple of lights to Hemingway Ave. for a right turn. Now past another mall, turn left after "The Green" (a park) on the left. This is River Street, a couple more blocks and you're there. Park in the back of the Sprague bldg. From LI it takes me about 1 1/2 hours.
There is also city buses that will get you their from Metro-North's New Haven station.
9/13/99
Watch out for those city buses. Unless things changed for the better,any day but Sunday you could access bus transportation to Shoreline. Last I heard you would take one bus and transfer to another and get off at the "Green" and walk the rest in. You wouldn't want to travel there by Metro North on Sunday and find no buses! You'll have to take a cab. If my memory serves me correct one of the lines was the K1-Church & Chappell.Check with shoreline first (203)467-6927
Bill Newkirk
Shoreline's web site indicates that bus service is available on Sundays, albeit not as frequently as on other days of the week.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Go to http://www.bera.org for directions.
My sister-in-law moved to New Jersey recently, and has been shocked at the bad behaviour of some of the passengers. NJT trains come with 2-3 seats in a row. Obviously, if you are on the side with the three, you're better off if there is no one in the middle seat.
According to the sister-in-law, some NJ passengers don't leave this to chance. They pile up stuff in the middle seat, then curse you if they ask you to move it. Men put their briefcases there, and then pretend to be asleep at each stop, "waking up" to read between stations after convincing the courteous to take the middle seat in someone else's aisle. "Wake" them and they get indignant.
She also has noticed nasty doings on the PATH, with groups of teens harrassing and threatining passengers, an no one doing anything about it. She isn't new to transit -- she had been riding the LIRR and subway without complaint.
Is there something to this?
> Is there something to this?
Seems like typical human behavior to me. I'm sure if you asked a person recently moved to Long Island, do they see rude people on the LIRR, the answer's "yes".
As for the PATH, I've never seen anything like that and I ride it every day, occasionally late at night or really late at night, like 3:00-4:00 am. Even if it is happening, the "no one doing anything about it" problem isn't unique to the PATH, NJT or anywhere else. Go rent The Incident. No one wants to end up a victim so they just stay away.
IMHO,
-Dave
Same thing on MBTA Commuter Rail, but to a lesser extent. Rush hour commuters hate having the middle seat taken on the three side of the 2x3 seats, but as a rule will not grumble too much about being asked to make room. It's the college kids who commute that even put their stuff down on the TWO side that makes people mad!
[Same thing on MBTA Commuter Rail, but to a lesser extent. Rush hour commuters hate having the middle seat taken on the three side of the 2x3 seats, but as a rule will not grumble too much about being asked to make room.]
Well, I have to confess that I greatly destest Middle Seat Hogs (people who insist on taking a middle seat when there isn't sufficient room). At least on the LIRR, I've determined that the three-across seats are governed by the 500/550/600 Rule. This rule is based on the combined weights of the three occupants. If the combined weight is under 500 lbs., it isn't too bad; at 550 lbs. things get awfully tight and anything over 600 lbs. is sheer agony for all involved. And the trouble is that Middle Seat Hogs plunk themselves down in the nearest available middle seats without regard for relative sizes of the occupants. Consider this scenario: I'm in the window seat of a three-across, and another fairly large man is in the aisle seat. Between the two of us we're close to the 500 lb. mark. Two people walk down the aisle looking for a middle seat. One is a Calista Flockhart wannabe while the other resembles the "before" pictures in a Jenny Craig ad. Which one utters the dreaded phrase "excuse me" and plunks his or her posterior in the middle seat? Yep, that's right.
As a daily rider on the northeast corridor line I agree with this assessment. I like to take the aisle seat of a three-seater. When someone larger than me (5ft9in-240pounds)sits that middle seat I wind up sitting leaning out into the aisle. People walk past you with their back-packs or briefcases and slam them right into you. They don't care because it wasn't a part of their body that hit you. I also like the way they block doors when where in a station. The trains are packed and its not the riders fault but people could exit faster if those who get stuck blocking doors would get off the train, let us off and then got back on again. The conductor's never make an announcement. The trains are so packed on the Northeast Corridor Line that the train crews nicknamed the 6:11pm to Trenton "The Titanic" and the 6:37pm to Trenton is nicknamed "The Andrea Doria".
I am glad that I ride METRA. Two and two seating downstairs and bowling alley or singles upstairs. Trains should not feel like a 737 and standing may be better than 3, 6'ers in a row.
I have been on NJT trains so full that the transit police were called and they axctually PULLED people OFF the train and pushed others into the train (Japan style)- That was Christmas 1997- andf I thought I was being smart leaving mid-day!! I had to wait 3 hoursd before squeezing into a train!
I try for the two side of the car- I sit on the aisle side and if someone wants a seat I give it to them-- You never know if the person will go beserk and start to hurt you! It is not worth it! Besides- as a transit porfessional I stand in the subway (usually no seats and we are REQUIRED to stand if paying customers have no available seats.) so what is another 20-25 minutes! (Yes- I have had passengers on the OTHER side of the aisle start acting strange so I got up and moved--One customer I even got the conductor and they called the Police!(Customer was strongly warned and told that if police returned the customer would be arrested)
Geez...makes me glad I ride (occasionally) the gentle Port Jervis Line. The worst you'll see there is sometimes in Hoboken a little jostling. But even that has calmed down since they eliminated the local stops in Jersey for the PJ Line trains. Whats funny is you'll hear (coming down especially) some "my, theres a lot of strangers today.." on an especially heavy day tripper day. Its always a shock to ride the 'real world' over on the Hudson Line...
One of DVARP's constant refrains is Dump 3x2 Seating. They say the discomfort of it is not worth the extra capacity. They also want septa to consider buying bilevels. If NJTs bilevels look like they will work out, Septa should consider piggybacking on that order. But even if the bilevels don't pan out, DVARP says Dump 3x2!
Perhaps ONE good item worth noting about the new LIRR bilevels is that 3x2 seating was completely abandoned. It was an item that nearly EVERYONE questioned agreed upon. I've heard that the new M-7s being ordered by the MTA (192 for the LIRR so far with another 6-700 more as an option for any of the MTA lines) will also be 2x2, dropping the middle seat on one side.
I prefer a little space on the train, so my trick is to always grab a seat on the two side (but not set stuff down on the seat next to me). Most other people like their space too, so unless the train is super crammed I can usually get away with some space on the way home. Of course I'm a reverse commuter so I'm not riding during the rush hour, usually...
[I prefer a little space on the train, so my trick is to always grab a seat on the two side (but not set stuff down on the seat next to me). Most other people like their space too, so unless the train is super crammed I can usually get away with some space on the way home.]
Your trick probably works because the aisle seats on the two-across side generally are the next-to-last to fill. I'd say that the fill order is as follows:
1) Window seat on three-across side.*
2) Window seat on two-across side.
3) Aisle seat on three-across side.
4) Aisle seat on two-across side.
5) Middle seat.
* = On trains that are generally SRO, the order of the first two is reversed. That's probably because the window seat on the three-acrossss side will be more confined because the window seat is certain to fill.
[because the window seat is certain to fill]
Oops, I meant middle seat.
Some people will prefer the aisle seat of the three-across, to avoid being trapped three-deep against the window.
[Some people will prefer the aisle seat of the three-across, to avoid being trapped three-deep against the window]
You're right, I've seen the aisle seats fill first on occasion. It's probably more common on trains where the middle seats are certain to fill. You'll also see aisle seats filling first on evening trains out of Penn with Jamaica stops.
There are a couple of strategies that one can follow to minimize the chance that someone will take the middle seat. There's always the bags-on-the-seat trick that's already been mentioned, although it frequently doesn't work. Another method that sometimes meets with success is to take the aisle seat when there's an undesirable-looking person in the window seat. Obviously this opportunity doesn't present itself too often, but it's good to know. Finally, if you're sitting in either the aisle or window seat, and some people are getting on with dreams of middle seats dancing in their minds, NEVER make eye contact with any of them. Even the briefest eye contact will almost always guarantee that you'll have an unwelcome neighbor. But note that avoiding eye contact won't do you any good if the train is so crowded that every middle seat will be taken.
While we're on the subject, does anybody know why the aisle seats on the 3-seat sides don't have headrests?
I was told it was because it would make the aisles "seem" too narrow.
The MBTA Commuter Rail 200-series rebuilt Pullmans (outshopped about two years ago) have high headrests on the aisle seat of the three-side, and the passengers love them. (Older coaches, including our Kawasaki bi-levels, have the same shortened backs as the LIRR cars on the three-side. I sure wish our bi-levels had 2x2 seating like the C-3s. Then again, we don't get any bi-levels on the north side service anyway!)
The LIRR's new bilevel coaches have excellent seats. They're in a 2x2 arrangement, with high backs, and actually are wide enough for normal human beings. Some people complain they're too hard, but they seem fine to me (the seats, not the complaining riders!)
I look upon those relatively comfy seats on the bilevels are being a payback for the relative claustrophobia.
If they had tried 3+2 on them, I think the result would have been quite unpleasant. Can you imagine someone going from the City to the Hamptons spending 3 hours or so like that?
Of course I have had airline rides like that.
[I look upon those relatively comfy seats on the bilevels are being a payback for the relative claustrophobia.
If they had tried 3+2 on them, I think the result would have been quite unpleasant. Can you imagine someone going from the City to the Hamptons spending 3 hours or so like that?]
Dunno, the bilevels don't seem claustrophobic to me. The ceilings are a bit lower than on the electrics or the old diesel coaches, but not by so much that it should bother anyone. Higher seat backs make the cars seem less open, but (this is hard to explain to someone not familiar with them) in a *good* way - there's more of a feeling of privacy, not being on public display as with the other cars. I find that quite nice indeed.
As long as we are talking about LIRR seats, I was wondering. Why did they get rid of the reversable seats with the M-1. I've always hated sitting backwards and I hate the fact that half the seats are facing that way. I just thought nobody made those seats any more, that it was a thing of the past, until I rode on a NJT train for the first time recently and it had reversible seats. I remember on the LIRR if you wanted to face your family or you were playing cards and the train wasn't crowded you just had to reverse the seats. (You didn't have to be at the seats by the doors as on the M cars.)
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
The flip-over seats were gotten rid of for two reasons:
1. Maintenance. Parts which are constantly pushed back and forth tend to break eventually.
2. On-the-job injuries. Conductors/trainmen were responsible for flipping the seats. Every now and then, there'd be a balky seat (owing to #1 above) that would jam, and cause shoulder, wrist, neck, and back injuries. In this day and age, everyone is prone to sue the daylights out of their employer over as little as a broken fingernail!
"In this day and age, everyone is prone to sue the daylights out of their employer over as little as a broken fingernail!"
Wrong, wrong, wrong!
Last time I checked, New York has workers' compensation, like every other state in the Union. Under that system, the employer is supposed to pay the medical bills and lost wages for all on-the-job injuries regardless of liability. In exchange for this, employers cannot be sued by their employees for unintentional physical injury (i.e. one can still sue their boss for punching them in the nose) and the amount they have to pay for lost wages is **extremely** limited -- at least here in Illinois, pain and suffering gets exactly diddly.
While I don't know the New York WC statute, the Workers' Compensation Act here in Illinois awards a grand total of 500 times one's weekly wage (which is actually computed as 66.67% of one's gross weekly pay without overtime, thus presuming everyone is in a 33.33% tax bracket) in the case of total disability -- death or total inability to work for the rest of one's life. So, someone who makes, say, $36,000/year, or about $692.30 *gross* a week, would get a grand total of $230,766.78 if they were KILLED on the job!
And, to return to the topic at hand from which I have admittedly strayed, Metra has flip seats on its trains (all bi-level fleet, 2 & 2 seating), and I don't imagine that their workers are any less likely than workers elsewhere to make false workers' comp claims.
I'm out on WC and had to hire a WC lawyer. I got hurt back on April 28th and the Consulting doctor the TA sent me to said I have a mild diability. My doctor said I have a total disability. I'm getting paid less than I should. If my lawyer can't resolve my case at the next hearing, I believe they will take the case to trial. Brian
"Trial" in WC cases is a hearing before the Industrial Commission or some hearing officer thereof, not a full trial in court with judge & jury. However, there is an appeal from the Commission to a regular court (but no jury).
Many WC cases are handled without serious dispute, but employees and employers often lock horns over how bad the injury is and how able the injured employee is to work. A common complaint from employees about the Workers' Compensation system is that the employer gets to pick the doctor that treats you, since the employer is paying the bill. The doctors, who often specialize in nothing but WC cases, have a strong incentive to claim that the patient is able to work or will be able to work with some more treatment. This is because, as you point out, such a finding greatly reduces what the employer has to pay for lost past and future wages, and employers will keep hiring a doctor who keeps doing this for them. I do not and cannot know if this happened in your case, but I've definitely seen such cases when I used to practice law.
The above does not constitute legal advice or a legal consultation. Yadda Yadda Yadda. :^)
You're correct. That happened to me. Thanks for the info. Brian
A lot of Metra bi-levels have reversible seats. I'm not sure what effects this has during the Chicago rush hour, since I've never ridden in the peak direction when the trains are packed. Often in the off-peak, however, I've seen about one person for every four seats on the lower levels (2x2 seating), spread out all over the seats next to and in front of them. Depending on the car configuration, you can "fill up" an entire side of the train with maybe 5-6 people.
[ If they had tried 3+2 on them, I think the result would have been ]
They did try 3+2 on them -- the C1's! Very similar configurations, but with 3+2 seating.
Here's what I thought was silly on the C1's, and is still silly on the C3's: The door leaves opening towards the outside of the car.
I think this is silly, because you end up losing a lot of window space, for no reason. The area next to the staircases already has no windows (makes sense), and the door panels could have been opened into a pocket next to the stairs. Instead, they open towards the ends of the cars, and you end up with 3' of steel where a window really ought to be. It would make the seating areas on the single-level portion of the train much less claustrophobic.
I haven't found a good reason why this wouldn't be possible yet..
My NJT conductor told me that because of height limitations and tunnel clearances the size of the cars would permit for only 14 more seats. I don't know what configuration their contemplating. I don't feel it's worth it for 14 more seats. NJT has to share the tracks with Amtrak and because there is only one track in and out of Penn Station there are only so many NJT trains that can leave or enter during rush hours. (I believe there are 4 tracks for in and out service for the LIRR). NJT pleaded with Amtrak for another slot which made a 6:33pm & 6:37pm departure for Trenton using an alternate stop mode similar to the IRT 1 & 9 lines on Broadway. This only made things worse because the 6:37 is the first train out of Penn and then out of Newark for 26 minutes for busy stops like Metropark, Metuchen, & Edison at the height of the rush hour.
[ While we're on the subject, does anybody know why the aisle seats on
the 3-seat sides don't have headrests? ]
Because they have hand-holds for standees in the aisle.
The Arrow III and Comet III and IV cars DO have headrests -same seat height all the way across and handholds
I just got a call from a friend of mine about the Grand Opening of the
"Hudson-Bergen" light rail line. It will be Sat. Oct 2, 1999 . He is getting me a ticket for this event. Any one else have any details on this? He said to meet him at Hoboken for this. Does that sound correct?
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
You might be meeting him at Hoboken but you'll have to take the PATH to get anywhere near a completed section of the HBLR. The tracks don't extend north of Exchange Place, Jersey City yet. The viaduct that will carry them to Hoboken is maybe 10% complete (they have the concrete supports in place).
It's possible they plan to start running some service between Bayonne and Liberty State Park (the most completed section) but I haven't heard ANYTHING about it.
Thanks for the info., Dave. I'll get more details when I call my friend this week. Sounds like the plan will be to take PATH to the nearest station like you decsribed.
Thanks aagin,
Chuck Greene
Let us know what you find out -- so I can tag along!
-Dave
It would be fun to have you tag along. I'll find out more details and keep in touch!
Chuck Greene
I saw this on TV to-nite. Anybody have any details? They said there was a smokey fire at the subway station. Which one?
Thank you,
Chuck Greene
According to the 11-O'Clock Channel 2 news, there was a fire in a store-room on the southbound Lexington Avenue line station. The Firemen made short work of the flames, but there was a serious smoke condition in the #4/#5/#6 line station, which spread to Grand Central Terminal above. They also noted that the fire was of suspicious origin.
Wayne
The 11:00 news on Channel 7 reported that the fire department had found nothing out of the ordinary or suspicious.
-Dave
Perhaps it was just Channel 2 trying to put some spin on it. Or maybe they had some misinformation, the latter probably true.
Wayne
Went through there (up from the 7 line to the Street) at about 1130p and definitely smelled something amiss but could not determine the origin.
In the NY daily News Monday Sept 13, page 8, is a story on the fire at Grand Central Subway Station. The fire started at 2:30 p.m. Sunday Sept 12, and sent everyone fleeing to the streets, as smoke rose from the subway level to GCT's cavernous ceiling. 150 firefighters battled the blaze, which was under control at 3:30 p.m.
Authorities said the fire started on the southbound lexington Ave. line in a storage room containg building material.
This is reported in the NY Daily News on page 8, monday Sept 13.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
9/13/99
The 11 o'clock news stated about a pile of rubish on top of building materials was the culprit. The cause was suspiscious. I guess the contractors will catch hell. Also other contractors on other station
projects will be put on notice about collected rubbish.
Bill Newkirk
Does anyone know what time the ferry runs to SI tomorrow morning? Their website is down.
Thanks!
Peter
Lv Whitehall St: 1230a-630a every 60 mins
630a-830a every 20 mins
830a-930a every 15 mins
930a-400p every 30 mins
400p-500p every 20 mins
500p-700p every 15 mins
700p-800p every 20 mins
800p-12mid every 30 mins
Larry,RedbirdR33
After Midnight or so it is every hour, Also note that on weekends they used to keep the one boat schedule (hour) until almost noon.
Where is your favorite place to ride on the SI ferry boats?
Assumming you don't have a car.
I prefer not to sit like most passengers. I like to stand in the middle of the vehicle deck. I usually stand on the gate right above the engine. Noisy as hell but intersting.
Anyone know what company produced the engines? How old are they and what are the horsepower and torque ratings?
Those are EMD engines, at least on the Kennedy-class. I believe they are similar to the type used in locomotives. I recall reading about them someplace. The Kennedy boats have 3 of these, and are diesel-electric drive.
-Hank
The Kennedy Class boats have 4 engines- each is a V12. The pistons are the size of a number 10 tin (the big institutional size can of tomato sauce, peaches, etc.)
And just the right size for a hobo stove. :)
As I understand it, those are EMD 567-type engines.
-Hank
I believe they are 12-567 D-series engines at 1800 horsepower each.
Somewhere I read the specifications and those numbers seem to be what I remember.
There are six boats in the Washington State Ferries fleet that have a pair of 2500 horsepower GE FDL-16's in them!! The engineering people at WSF said the engines actually did come from the BN Railroad when those six boats were being built in the early 1980's.
Most of the rest of the WSF fleet has EMD engines though.
British Columbia Ferries seems to like a Finnish engine, the name of which slips my mind right now.
Are there any still out there using Fairbanks-Morse engines still?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I haven't ever seen a ferryboat with a Fairbanks-Morse engine. I believe they were used extensively in submarines, however.
I don't think any of the submarines are still operable -- aren't all the U.S. Navy submarines now nuclear powered?
All active US subs are nukes, yes. FM did put their opposed engines in surface vessels too - not sure about ferries or naval vessels, but I had a number of opportunities in the mid-'70s to go into the engine rooms of merchant vessels and I know that some of them were FM-powered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm currently in the US Navy. Yes, all US Submarines are nuclear powered. The largest reactors are found on our Nimitz Class aircraft carriers. The British and other nations use Diesel-electric submarines. The Navy uses Fairbanks-Morse Diesels for shipboard generators and Colt-Pielsticks for main engines on the LSD-41 class of amphibious ships
All U.S. Submarines are Nuclear powered but they all still have Diesel engines on board for 1. In case an accident with the reactor calls for an emergency shutdown (they need power somehow) 2. To restart the reactor after a shut down (nuclear reactors need a aweful lot of power to get started) and 3. While the sub is docked almost always the reactor is shutdown and secured, and to some ports shore-based power isn't always available. I'm not sure what type of diesel power U.S. subs use but it's on them.
Maybe its a DD12V149MTU?
Why is power needed to start a nuclear reactor?
To get the chain reaction going. You'd need the emission of the the neutrons to bombard the Uranium, which then splits and releases additional neutrons.
I'm currently in the US Navy. Yes, all US Submarines are nuclear powered. The largest reactors are found on our Nimitz Class aircraft carriers. The British and other nations use Diesel-electric submarines.
Nitpick: Like the US sub force, the British SSN and SSBN fleets are entirely nuclear powered. The last non-nuclear British SSNs were receintly leased/sold to Canada.
CH
Actually there is one non-nuclear sub still in the fleet. She is the USS Dolphin AGSS 555 comissioned in 1968 and runs on two General Motors 12V71 diesels and an electric motor. She is an experimental deep diving submarine and reportedly has gone to greater deeps then any other US submarine. She is active in the Pacific Fleet and assigned to Submarine Developement Group 1.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Hank,
There's actually 4 engines on the KENNEDY class and BARBERI class boats. There's 2 on the AUSTEN class.
If you happen to be on a KENNEDY or BARBERI class boat and it appears that you are traveling slowly (i.e. not making round trip in an hour), one engine is down and they're running on three.
Incidently, the KENNEDY class diesels are rated at 1600 HP...not sure of the torque.
Chip
On the Barberi class boats the engine turns a huge cog wheel in the
area above the propeller from what I heard.
What is that cog for? Its not on any of the other boats?
From 1905 until 1981, all the ferryboats, regardless of steam engine or diesel motors, on the SI Ferry were double ended screw boats. This means that on each end, there is a screw propeller (which it the type that most people are used to) and a rudder to turn the boat. This makes the boat as maneuverable as the typical 297 foot boat that is not equipped with bow thruster. This is also why on the KENNEDY class boats, the "kiss" of the rack when docking is necessary (it is still an art to dock the KENNEDY class boats - matching the approach to the tide and wind, then hoping that the tide table is right...).
With the arrival of the BARBERI in 1981, a new propulsion system was tried. It was designed by a German firm by the name of Volth-Schneider. In this system, there is no screw, and, more surprisingly, there is no rudder. In place of the screw is a cycloid propeller - much like an egg beater. In place of the rudder is a fixed structure that basically hangs from the hull but does not turn. On the cycloid prop are "fins" that adjust - by percentage of pitch - to move the boat in any direction. Both pilot houses are able to control the cycloid on each end - therefore the boat is far more maneuverable - and the "kissing" of the rack is rendered obsolete. Considering that each piling costs $250-$300, this may not have been a bad investment...
The cog that you mention is the key to turning the cycloid. A cog sits atop each one. This is what rotates the cycloid. The BARBERI and AUSTEN classes have them, while the KENNEDY class does not. Incidently, the next time that you are on a KENNEDY class boat, watch the action on the Main Deck. You will notice that the DH will need to either raise or lower a pin (the pin on the end away from the dock will be lowered and the pin on the close end will be raised). The purpose of the pin is to hold the rudder in place when it is not being used. After you notice that action, take a look at the other classes of boats. There is no pin.
Chip
I almost always ride on the lower deck, either in the very front or the very back. The view of Manhattan and the harbor cannot be beat - in fact I tell people of limited means (like myself) visiting NY to ride the ferry, just for the ride. Particularly important to be up front, down low, when the ferry docks. Its an impressive display of momentum, and the power of hydraulics, when they come in and then dock.
When I was a kid, a crewman let me and my dad poke our heads down into the engineroom. But we could not really get down in there and look around. Woulda been a hoot!
Today i added R32/38 page on my page & i will added more subway pictures tomorrow.
http://www.angelfire.com/ct/nyctmtasubway/index.html
PS #8885 Tractior Gel Car is now sitting at Westchester Yard
Peace Out
Meaney
Ah, she's found a new place to sun herself. Maybe she's out looking for a mate? I hear #8980's on the mend and may be eligible. That's a nice paint job she has.
I have a photo of #4070 at Utica Avenue for you if you're interested.
Wayne
What did you say?!!? Did 8980 leave the yard? Do any TA personnel out here on SubTalk know what the status is of R33s that went off the el last February?
If there's hope for 8980, it should be sooner than later, otherwise the R142s will wind up replacing 8980 and this car's companions.
-Stef
In the NY Post Sunday Sept 12, page 21, is a article about the TA is looking for a few good people to keep its trains on track. They are offering non-employees an opportunity to become train operators, a job formerly open only to conductors, cleaners, station agents and other transit workers.
Also below that is a article about Keron Thomas who hijacked a A train six years ago, for three hours with 2,000 strahhangers aboard.
After the good people of SubTalk read both articles, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Home of the B, D and #4 train.
That's interesting. I heard on CBS NewsRadio 88 that the test will be January 8, 2000. I took the conductor's test on June 26th with an aim to getting a foot in the door and getting promoted to T/O, which is the job I was actually looking for. Where does this leave me, assuming I have passed the C/R test? I wonder if I should get the books and take THIS test as well, as this was my ultimate goal.
Wayne
too bad the open comptetive Train Operator test will subject the individual who is hired heaven forbid they mess up enough a dismissal instead of a demotion to a former title... even though the current contract which is due to expire December 15,1999 does not specify the wages of an off the street hired T/O expect to be paid at a substantially lower wage and longer time span to reach top salary.(if they haven't already quit or been fired).
I don't think the TA should be hiring TOs off the street, or even giving a test. What is involved -- dedication to showing up on time, concentration, caring. You can't test for that. But you can observe it in employees you have on staff. What if they get a bunch of shirkers who pass the test?
Under Civil Service you're not supposed to take into account for subjective judgments like "concentration, caring." Reason? These are judgments of supervision which may be used to secure promotion for the supervisor's favorites rather than the most qualifed, IOW, too amenable to corruption.
If a person turns out to be a shirker (whether he/she was promoted or hired "off the street") there should be effective means of removal after appointment.
Whether or not it is fair, right or proper to have an open competitive test for T/O is a separate issue entirely.
(Effetive means of removal). There is no such thing in a Civil Service environment.
Yeah. Tell that to the 34 people in RTO fired in July. Or the 27 fired in August. The 6 already gone this month.
From the outside, it always looks like the grass is greener. It couldn't be further from the truth.
People from the outside see this as a dream opportunity to operate trains and see it just for that. They're in for a suprise oounce they've made a mistake such as wrong line up, spliting switches, signal overruns, these may demote a promotional employee but an open competitive would be dismissed, hey dismissed before making probation
the TA saves money on the pay raise once they've made the YEAR!
All the titles look nice and cuchy from the outside just wait till you're employed and under the gun by the GOONS at 370 Jay STreet
Once hired off the list, that person is still on probation. For me a year after coming of a civil service list I was reviewd on a City Civil Service form. At that time if I got a poor review they could have removed me, I would return to the list though, at the bottom if it had not expired by that time.
You have to have good cause and enough backup evidence. Case in point, a person in a supervisory title "punched" in at a location closer to his home, not his reporting duty site. Since he suprvised workers in the whole city he felt that he could do this. He was charged and the judge ruled in his favor, why? He was never exlicitly told to "punch in" at his reporting site. This person kept doing it, it took two years, he was offered 20 work day suspention or 35 calendar, he said no, the judge ruled in my favor once. Now he is fired, and on the bottom of the list that is about to expire.
Three supervisors in the Division of Car Equipment have recently been demoted to their former titles. Two back to cleaners and one back to Car Inspector after 8 years as a supervisor. The one year probation is the easiest way to get rid of poor employees but it's not the only way. Until a person is vested and even after, it's not as difficult as one might think to get rid of someone. Took 14 years but we finally gor a 19 year man fired.
The reason for the open-competative test (for the first time ever) is the fact that Management is hoping that this will weaken the TA Unions. That's the only thing that makes sense about the whole thing.
Doug aka BMTman
In your case, you are in a catch 22. The TA stated that they can not get enough persons to pass the promotional. That was B.S. as they specifically designed exams that some TSSs couldn't pass so they could hold the open competitive for T/O. On the other hand taking the promotional will require harder than usual studying to overcome the odds of failing the exam because of the TA union busting tactics. I would tell you to come on as a conductor first as with the risk of being disciplined, you will have a shot at demotion rather than dismissal in rare cases. The chances of rule violating are very high for new T/Os with the little training and no union representation for the first year of work so study hard whatever choice you make.
(Should I take this test as well)?
In 1990, I signed up for an Associate City Planner Exam (one level up) and paid. They changed the test date twice, finally to a date when I expected to be on my second honeymoon -- with non-refundable airline tickets. I wouldn't cancel the trip, and they wouldn't pay me back.
For years ago, I took a City Planner test, paid the fee, and finished 2nd out of however many. Haven't been appointed. They won't appoint you unless you scream, because provisionals don't pay FICA, so they save money. I haven't screamed. Why scream to start paying FICA in the job I have?
This year they gave another test for Associate. I paid the fee. This one was just a form to list your education and experience. Needless to say, I am way overqualified. Since there is an overlap between the pay ranges, perhaps they'll agree to promote me in exchange for a pay cut. Or perhaps not, since they haven't gotten too many permissions for promotions in the past decade.
Now they are giving another test for the job I already have. Having finished second on the last test, I ain't paying another fee. What I really need is another job -- outside of government -- as soon as the part time-for-child-care benefit goes away.
[ I have passed the C/R test? I wonder if I should get the books and
take THIS test as well, as this was my ultimate goal. ]
Where does one get the "books" for these tests?
There is an ad running in several magazines (such as Business Week) for E-Trade. It shows a nebbishy stock broker-type standing on what appears to be an in service #7, the theme being "If your stock broker is so good, why does he have to work." Closer examination yields the info that the train is prob. #9306 at the Transit Museum (One can see the "C" on the tile wall). Also the sign mechanism is the old fashioned "X" crank, yet the signs displayed are of the newer variety. Seems like they tried to make it look like a new train, hmmmm?
Where and on what lines are the highest speeds (45mph and over) attained?
The 60th Street tunnel (N/R), the Joralemon St. tunnel (4/5), the Queens bound E/F from Roosevelt to Forest Hills, the Rockaway line from Broad Channel to Howard Beach and the entire Brighton express.
60th Street Tunnel Manhattan bound has too many new Grade Timers, once you get past the interlocking where the N/R merge your too deep to pick up speed for the climb. More GT's around that interlocking too.
"Not fun no more"
It seems the N/R 60th street tunnel is not fast anymore. When I rode it in the spring of this year they were still going pretty fast, especially on the Manhattan-bound N's. But during the summer, that must've been when they put those GT's in, because when I got on a train with a front window everytime we tried to pick up speed going on there was a yellow signal, which had the next one red unless the motorman slowed down.
It sure sucks. After all subways are supposed to be "rapid" transit yet some of the LI Bus routes (N20 on rt107 and 25a for example) seem to get more speed (often doing about 50-55mph) than a subway.
Even in Queens the N20/21 can move faster than a subway during the nighttime.
Why do they slow the trains down so much? And I think I've seen the dreaded wheel detectors on the Lexington avenue IRT Express track, they say "WD".
From my own experience the 60th street tunnel used to yield the fastest speeds, but lately that just hasn't been the case. Even the E/F in Queens have been slowing down. The only lines I've seen to remain fast are the 7 Express going to Flushing after Woodside.
If you think the N20 is fast you never rode it from Queens all the way to Hicksville. I rode it once when my car broke down in Little Neck and it took forever. The stretches where it leaves Northern Blvd to go to the Great Neck Station and into C.W. Post and from 107 into Old Westbury Univ. are very time consuming. That is one run that needs a rest room!!!
While I share your feeling about the TA slowing down the subways, there are several stretches along the subway that are fast, that is if you are on the right type of car.
The stretch between W4th and 34th Sts on the 6th Ave. Exp. in both directions; southbound exp from 125th to 59th Sts along Central Park West on an R44 (god forbid on an R68); the southbound stretch between 59th and 42nd Sts along the 8th Ave. Exp.; the Rockway "A" train crossing the entire width of the Jamaica Bay North or Southbound (again use the R44s). These are just a few fast stretches left along the system. Also, I would try the "Q" Brighton Exp. using the slant R40s. That's a real treat in both directions. Most of the line is pretty fast.
I think the L train between bedford and 1av is pretty fast. I also agree with the stretch between 86 and 59 on lex. I get disappointed on the A southbound from 125 because I think it crawls after 81st.
The southbound CPW express run gets tripped up at 81st Street; GT's there and persists all the way to 59th Street. Phooey! On the "L", the R40s beat the R40Ms and R42s through the tunnel every time. I was on one, #4399, which roared through the tube at 50MPH, sneering at the GTs as it thundered along. The T/O was very skillful at lining up and knocking down these pesky GTs. I was on an "A" of R32s, #3767 the lead motor which navigated an entire minefield of GTs between Broadway-ENY and Euclid by holding it at a steady 35 MPH. There's only one lonely GT eastbound on the Fulton IND between Hoyt and Nostrand, and that one's just about at the east end of Franklin Avenue.
Wayne (I HATES GT's!)
The Howard Beach-Broad Channel run has to rank up there even today. The R-10s used to hit at least 50, if not 60, on that stretch.
The uptown CPW express run is a good one, especially with R-38s. In the good old days, an express would rip past 81st St. at full speed which with the R-10s was around 50 (and a mighty roar for good measure).
Other good runs:
Times Square to 72nd St. on a 2 or 3.
The 7th Ave. and Park Ave. staightaways.
Pacific St. to 36th St. on a train of slant R-40s.
Back in the mid-to-late 1980s (probably around 1986 or 1987) I was on an "H" train, of all things, made up of venerable (and very Bottle Green) R-10s, which was making a mid-day Rockaway Park-to-Euclid Avenue run, and he gave it the gun through the Preserve and over the trestle, probably reaching 50 MPH or more. #2974 was the lead motor. We shook, rattled and rolled, but this train seemed to have no trouble attaining and holding speed, its age nonwithstanding. I thought some of its innards might work loose from their mountings - one bracket fan was wobbling and rattling precariously, fiberglas seats were chattering like loose teeth in their frames and the storm door (at the #2 end) kept swinging open and closed. It was a fun ride!
Wayne
I seem to recall swinging storm doors as well. No particular route or train, but for some reason the 14th St. tunnel on the Canarsie line comes to mind. With the R-7/9s, it would be self-explanatory. With the BMT standards, I'm curious as to whether or not their storm doors could even be opened manually, since they were powered.
9/15/99
Steve,
Those end storm doors on the Standards were pnuematically opened from the conductors button board. I remember that on ERA fantrips. On one door the door closed slow and had to be assisted to close completely. On another car,it closed like a guillotine !! Unlike R1-'s to present,the doors were allways closed if not locked. dangerous clearances when cars were switching or rounding curves lead to them being locked.
Bill Newkirk
Doesn't the 7X rank up there?
I'd say so. I rode on it once after a Mets game on August 1, 1970, and let me tell you, it moved.
My FAVORITE was always on D3 track on the Queens IND, between Ely Av and Lexington. Coming up from the bottom of the tunnel, Signal D3-1185 had a very distinctive clickety-clack. The R38s (and yes, I guess the 40s and 42s) used to absolutely smoke it through there. Fooey on welded rail (and blacked-out cab windows) for depriving riders of very key visuals and audio.
I hate when they black out the windows. During the summer I was fortunate to be on trains with front windows not covered. But as of September, most of the windows on the R44s and newer have been blacked out. The Redbirds and R38's, and the Slant R40's have the best windows.
Why do they black out the front windows anyway?
It may be that the light from the car interior may be distracting to some operators. There are other possibilities, but I won't go any further.
Some of the R-46s have that same glass used on R-68 cab doors. The type that lets you see straight ahead but not to the left or right.
they used to black out the left front windows to sell ads
I think the L train between bedford and 1av is pretty fast. I also agree with the stretch between 86 and 59 on lex. I get disappointed on the A southbound from 125 because I think it crawls after 81st.
Last time I took the Q while it was a slant R40 because of track work it ran local to Brighton. That was slow. I didn't see any signs about the Q running local that day!
I remember one terrifyingly fast ride thru that tunnel. A Saturday evening in April 1995 (sometime between 7 and 8 pm), Queens-bound R train...don't know the make, but it was one of the newer cars with the black-on-yellow electronic side signs (a Kawasaki, maybe). That mother HAD to doing 60 in the tunnel! My friend, who an hour earlier had had a rough ride on the PATH 33rd St. line, was about to get sick all over herself. That was easily the fastest ride I've ever had in the NY subway.
My favorite portions are: 2/3 from 42 to 72 sts (speed as well as curves), and 4/5 from 42 to 125 sts, especially the descent to the lower level north of GCT and the rise going thru 116 st.
BTW, if anyone is ever in Washington DC, try the Red Line northbound between Dupont Circle and Woodley Park-Zoo. The line plunges deep below Connecticut Ave NW and Rock Creek Park, but instead of going in a straight line it follows the many bends of Conn. Ave north of the circle. Great speed here!
One day I was operating an R40 Slant on the N line and hit a top speed of 56mph thru the 60th Street Tunnel. Another time I had an R32 on the R line and did 60mph. Both Queens bound. I had a TA boss with me on the N and he was surprised and happy about the top speed I managed to get the train to. Brian
9/15/99
This is what RAPID transit is all about. Something that is slowly dying with timers,etc.
Bill Newkirk
The TA speeds up timers in one place and slows them down and adds slow timers in other places. Brian
If it was an R, the cars were R-46s. They have the electronic side signs, as do the R-44s on the A.
There is one run which comes close to being terrifying: the southbound runaway stretch along 8th Ave. between 50th and 42nd Sts. It's all downhill, and A trains scream past the uptown platform at 42nd St. Well, the R-10s used to scream. The R-38s and R-44s are just a tad tamer.
Terrifying? Somebody's already mentioned an L operator who has the perfect touch on the 50 MPH timers in the 14th St. Tunnel--I happened to be right up against the front window leaving Bedford a couple of weeks ago, and watched the train hurtle at each of these red signals that flicked to green just as we hit them. I thought I was about to get my neck broken, but I couldn't look away.
The BMT standards used to hit 50 in that same tunnel all the time. Their motors would be whining away at Ab above middle C at the lowest point in the tunnel. Of course, by the time they got to First Ave., they would be laboring away, gear pitch having dropped all the way to C# above middle C or even B one whole step lower. I didn't pay too much attention to the signals back then.
another real great speed ride is the BART in the San Francisco Bay Area.
When it first opened the trains would hit speeds of 80-90 mph thru the bay tunnel, but now they only go about 55-60. Also the Hong Kong MRT under the bay also hits speeds of 60 mph
The 6th Ave IND Southbound from 34th Street to West 4th Street is quite fast. Also the IRTS &th Ave between 96th Street to 72nd Street and Times Square to 72nd Street. There are others...
Wayne
The 6th. Ave. express tracks are only fast if you're riding on a slant R40. The R68's never reach a speed which could be labeled "fast".
You can say that again.
Yeah I recently took an A train from 34th street south to West 4th and it was a really speedy R44, it felt like we were going near 50mph.
I was also on the 5 from Grand Central to 86th. Big stretch in the express tunnel between 59th and 86th, plus the Redbirds gave a great tunnel view.
Got good speed, especially on the southbound 5 between 86th and 59th.
Lexington avenue express and the A train seem to be the fastest in Manhattan. Everything else crawls, especially the BMT lines.
Used to go pretty fast in the 60th street N/R tunnel and E/F tubes but the signals seem to be slowing the trains down there now.
Southbound A trains have always taken the 34th-14th run quickly - partly because the run between 23rd and 14th is downhill. Last fall, I rode on several A trains along that stretch, both R-38s and R-44s, and they seemed to run just as fast as they did when the R-10s ruled supreme. And I used to ride that segment every Saturday from 42nd to 14th.
Other places for good speed:
59th Street to 42 on the 8th Avenue Express track (A).
Lex Northbound on the Express tracks coming into 59th.
4th AVenue express tracks in Brooklyn between Pacific and 59th.
How about the Central Park West express segment between 59th and 125th Streets in Manhattan?
How about the Central Park West express segment between 59th and 125th Streets in Manhattan?
I personally have hit 50 mph out in the Rockaways on an R44 between the South and North channel bridges, northbound.
I have also hit 47 mph on the same train between 59th and 125th sts.
It was a fast R44!
I have been on an N train (R68) going north between Lex and Queensboro Plaza which hit 63 mph. T/O was very fast through the timers.
Southbound between 34th and W 4th sts, I have heard that one can hit 48 mph if they have a good train.
Later,
Chris
An R68 going 63 MPH? Had to be a defective speedometer! LOL!
Or maybe it was the old hook-up-a-jumper-wire-and-not-tell-anyone trick.
Or maybe there was a tail wind in the tunnel.
On 3 track between Franklin Avenue and Atlantic Avenue more GT were added. After clearing the 35mph Gt's after the turn coming downhill now you've got 30 MPH GTs entering Atlantic avenue. Real smart really smart let me add that 3 track between 86th st to 125 after the 40mph GT the word is that the curve before entering 125 will have GTs added also..
The system is being slowed down more and more what a way to run a railroad...
That's funny - Frank Corrall said the same thing in the original Pelham 1-2-3.
Bottom line: it sucks.
I was on the D Train once between 59th and 125th St. It must have been 2 in the morning. We were really flying. At DeKalb Ave. The Motorman open the door for a minute waiting for a N. I asked him how fast he was going on that stretch. and he said over 55. This was 10 years ago
What equipment did that train consist of?
Ten years ago (1989), the "D" was running Kawasaki R68As which hadn't been neutered yet, so 55 might have been possible.
Wayne
My own experiences (which may parallel those of others posting to this thread):
"A" Fulton between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Nostrand (outbound)
"A" 8th Ave Exp s/b from 110th to 86th (southbound)
"Q" Express from Sheepshead bay to Prospect Park
"E"/"F" Queens Exp in the N Boulevard bypass, also east of Grand Ave.
"L" in the 14th Street Tube
"N" Exp up 4th Ave- 36th to Pacific. "B"'s used to do well here. Not no more.
#2 Express in various spots up and down the 7th Avenue line
#4/#5 (#5 is faster) up Lexington Ave n.of 59th Street
Just a sampling, there are others.
Wayne
Fastest speed: Manhattan bound E & F just past 65 St. station.
Before the moved the E to the Archer Line, and before they made the F train Local from the 179th st Terminal, the F train pulling out of 179th st, would get to about 51 mph roaring through 169th st, passing an E train and meeting it at Parsons Blvd. My cousin is a retired conductor and told me stories of some motermen over shooting Parsons Blvd. . Those tracks run under Hillside Ave. and they are all down hill in that direction. Although this is a short run it's fast.
Also a nice run, a little longer was the F express from Union Tpk to Parsons Blvd. I have seen trains getting up to around 49mph through there.
Frank D- Queens Blvd Exp
The stretch from Van Wyck to Union Tpke. is also incredibly fast in the Manhattan-bound direction, especially on the R32 E.
Yes it is, but they don't seem to run that fast anymore... Majority of the times, because the E trains pump out so fast from Archer Terminal, they usually wait for an F to pas while on the express track or its due to workers on the track.
Frank D
Out of the BMT, IRT, and IND which is the fastest on average? The slowest?
My guess is (listing from fastest to slowest) is IRT, IND, and BMT.
The BMT has annoyingly slow areas, namely the J line from Crescent to Cypress Hills, the L line near Graham Ave., the B/M from 20th Ave. to 18th Ave (Manhattan bound), both East river bridge crossings, and just about every line going through the Dekalb Ave. interlock.
The "L" is slow between Grand and Graham for two reasons:
1) There's a 75-degree curve with a very TIGHT radius just outside of Graham Avenue station (probably around 250 feet radius).
2) Two rear-end collisions occurred at that location, both as the result of key-by errors. One was a work train and a light train, the other was a revenue train and an out-of-service train stopped in the station.
Wayne
The "L" is also slow between Grand and Graham because of a building up above that vibrates when trains exceed 10 mph. Brian
Almost. It's IND, IRT and BMT. The IND was built for speed (flying junctions, express tracks taking a diverging and more direct route between stops, gentler curves).
--Mark
Yea, but the IRT has an advantage right now because it doesn't have the cars we're not supposed to say bad things about anymore. They tend to cut the IND's speed advantage, especially between W. Fourth and 34th and on CPW.
Such as #666 on the pre-GOH R46s for example....
Any of you have supserstitions on car #s to avoid riding...
(Berhard Goetz's R22 is gone by now...believe that car # was #7657, can anyone verify that number?)
Nick C
I once got on an F train and noticed I was in car #666. I quickly got off and went into the next car. I'd do the same with R62 #1313. Anyone know which line that runs on?
Gotta look for these cars when I want a seat during rush hour!!! If everyone is superstitious there would be plenty of seats!!!!
I prefer standing to tempting fate.
I'll take my chances - not that the numbers mean anything to me anyway. Many, many years ago when I lived in the far north country I ended up with license plate DEV-666 - it wasn't until I moved back to the Bible Belt that I had any idea that there was any superstition surrounding that combination. Somewhere, in my vast collection of junk, I've still got that plate - at least I don't think it was the one I used to repair the leak in the tin roof on the old barn (an excellent use for old tags, by the way - nail it on and caulk like the dickens, it'll last for years).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not everyone worries about 666. A real estate in Bay Shore has 666-6666 an is proud of it.
It does bother me a little, though, that they're never open during daylight hours...
Is it painted black?
I don't avoid any particular car numbers. I'm more inclined to avoid certain car classes such as R-44s and R-68s and local trains in general.
Steve B 8AVEXP: Not certain cars, certain trains. I've always hated the train now known as the "R". It used to be the #2 train when I was a kid, and once it left Queens Plaza, it was underground all the way.
Today it's all underground and is slow as hell. It stops and seems to hang in the station for eons before moving out. This summer I decided to ride it out to it's terminal stop at 95th Street and Fort Hamilton in Bay Ridge. When I got off the train, I felt that I was in a filthy Turkish Bath---not a clean one. The smell was awful and the heat was oppresive. I regretted going there, but the story has a happy ending. After cursing myself for going to the end on that rotten train, as I exited I noticed a Baskin-Robbins right above the station. I was like an oasis. The neighborhood around there turned out to be very nice.
R-62 #1313 (actually all R-62's) live in the #4 line.
I have a friend that used to avoid R-46 #1054 because he claimed that the A/C was so cold that he got sick.
Wayne
Isn't that the one that plowed into the bumper-blocks east of 179th Street back on June 4, 1987, killing the motorman, mangling its "A" end and buckling the frame and floor of the following car, #941?
That's bad luck for sure.
Wayne
Probably the 4
Peter: Why the #4? I don't like it because it has the number that used to be on my favorite train--The Sea Beach. Is there something really wrong with that train or is it some silly hangup like I have.
1313 was assigned to the R-62s because it was an available range. The R-62s are on the 4. Nobody at the MTA gives a damn about which numbered trains end up on which line. Oh, BTW, it IS a silly hangup, I'm sure we all have one in relation to the subway.
Not only have I seen (and ridden on) R62 #1313, but I've seen and ridden on R-6-1 #1313, one of the rattiest and filthiest of its breed.
I rode it on the "E", "F" and "EE" lines on different occasions. IIRC if I saw it in the train I'd make sure to either walk through it or ride in it, just to see if anything bad would happen after, but, of course, nothing ever did.
Slant R40 #4373 - now that's another story.
Wayne
Silly superstition, yes, but one that persists in all sorts of places. I was just on a business trip for a couple of days (hurrah for my laptop, I didn't have to miss the board) and noticed that they skipped room 413 in my seriously overpriced hotel. (When it came to comfort they skipped room 406 as well - one of the most uncomfortable beds I've slept in in a long time, and for a room that nominally rents for $300/night [and actually cost my employer $150/night] that's disgusting.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, here's my hangup: the E train in Manhattan, specifically south of 42nd St. I absolutely refuse to take it along that stretch. It all goes back to September 23, 1967, when we were waiting at 42nd St. and an E train of R-1/9s with its "E/8th Ave. express" side signs pulled in on the local track. We boarded it, and everything seemed fine - until we got to 23rd St. I noticed right away that it was a local stop, and here was this train which was marked as an express and was stopping! I blew a fuse right then and there. Talk about betrayal. The system was still new to me then, and I didn't know that the E ran express only during rush hours, but I knew what the word express meant. Later that same day, we took a northbound A train along that stretch, and I noticed right away that we weren't stopping at 23rd. I became an A fan for life right then and there. I also thought the R-10s looked really nice.
We took a southbound A train the following week from 42nd St., and of course it zoomed past 23rd St. I felt much better.
Steve B-8AVEXP: You have hangups just like me. I told you you were my blood brother. I felt the same about the 4th Ave Local (Now the R and before the #2 train)
I have a hangup with locals in general. I am the biggest express addict around. You won't see me on a local unless I have to get off at a local stop, or if I'm on the BMT Broadway line (no choice there).
9/14/99
Yes , #9493 comes to mind. Six years ago my girlfriend died instantly in a freak car crash on Sept.4,1993 (9-4-93). I've seen the LIRR M-1 of that number a couple of times and and shudder , that day just back again. I won't ride that car or any bus or transit car with that number. Call me foolish but that's how I feel.
Bill Newkirk
(Patricia Covello R.I.P)
It's not foolish, and it's not superstition. it's an understandable association.
You have my sympathy--that was a terrible loss.
Like many my age and older, the very sight of the date November 22 seems sinister, quite apart from what happened that date.
Those of us who are old enough to remember JFK's assassination can recall exactly where we were when we first heard about it. I was in first grade, three days past my seventh birthday, when we heard the announcement over the PA. Our nun just clasped her hands and bowed her head. I can't recall if we were sent home early, and I didn't fully grasp what had happened, but my mother says Walter Cronkite actually broke down during his newscast.
There was a John Kennedy in the other first grade class - no relation.
Sorry for going off-topic.
Bill, you are certainly not foolish. You lost your love and I can only imagine the pain that it brought you. You've given me wakeup call, however. 1993 was one of my favorite years, but everytime I think about it now I will be jolted into remembering how it turned out for one of my colleagues on this web site. I hope the years since have brought you mostly joy.
Sea Beach Man
I also have this as car 7657, the seventh car of a ten-car #2 train which left WP at 1236, 12/22/84. The shootings occurred at about Franklin Street station.
By the time the case went to trial, 7657 had been gutted for work service. The NYPD was criticized for not preserving the evidence but, unlike some high-profile later trials, there was no attempt at getting a dismissal or acquittal on this point.
As to superstition, I don't have any in regard to car numbers. I've been amused that the TA chose to have its exec offices on the 13th floor of 370 Jay.
My late mother always insisted that I not ride in the first or last cars of a subway train, citing her memories of the Malbone Street accident. The irony of that, of course, is that there were no fatalities in the first or last cars of that ill-fated train or, AFAIK, even any serious injuries.
Didn't they hold a demonstration during the trial on this subway car? IIRC, Slotnik wanted to show the jury just how the 4 urban youths were intimidating Geotz.
They made up a train of mostly R22s and the jurors boarded it at Chambers Street in the Nassau Loop, then the train was pulled out of the station, stopped, and the jurors left alone to look through the cars and get their own impressions.
A juror who wrote a book about the deliberations thought it was the smartest move Goetz's lawyer could have arranged. The jurors could relate the testimony to actual subway conditions and decide what seemed true and what didn't.
There was a key prosecution witness who the defense argued wasn't even on the train--that he was one of those people who show up for their "15 minutes of fame" even if they have to lie to get it.
Anyway, this person claimed to have seem Goetz shoot one of the youths while he was sitting in the seat opposite the conductor's position. Moreover, he claimed to have seen it through the closed end-door windows of the next car. The defense argued that this was physically impossible based on the "witness's" testimony. So the jurors went into the next car to see for themselves. They agreed with the defense.
But to get back to the original point--none of these cars was the original R22, which was already in work service.
Paul : Riding up front is the only way to go---with your nose right up against the window. There were probably hundreds of people who wondered who that wierdo was riding those subway cars last month. I was a kid again and it felt great even if I'm going to be 59 next month.
Riding up front is the only way to go---with your nose right up against the window
I preferred sticking my nose out the window. Youc ouldn't get me away from the open window even in the pouring rain. On a Triplex the rain wasn't too bad with that big brow, but one a Standard it could get really brutal.
It was strange riding in the front of a BU, since there was the large platform in front. I tried a couple of times to get the motorman to let me ride on the front platform ("I won't get in the way of your window, HONEST!") but no soap.
Wasn't it something? You could ride the platform between cars but they sure wouldn't let you ride on either the front or rear platform of the train.
Paul: I could ever do such a thing I'd grab at it----fast.
Hey - I think I've got a photo of LI BUS #666 here somewhere. I've been on it - it's nice, and not as hot as you'd think.
I've got pics of NYCT Orion 666 on the s79.
-Hank
I try to aviod car 9000. Unfortanitly I had it as my operating car 4 Times. I also dislike 1666 on the No.6 Line.
Why #9000? was it because of the fire that nearly killed #9000 in the 80s at Borough Hall?
I bet #1666 is for the Great Fire of London, if so, you might want to add #1665 to your blacklist for Plague of London (or #1666 contains the devil's number also....)
Yes you hit it right on the nose.
There is a car #666 in service on the PATH. If the R142 order shapes up with the numbers forecast, there will be a return of #6666. I don't hold much truck with superstitious numbers like #666 or #1313 - I shy away from numbers which involved fatalities. Right now, the black list reads like this: (not sure if I have all of them)
R62 #1437, R62 #1440, R40M #4461, R46 #1054, R21 #7069 (not 100% sure on this one), R16 #6304, R-6-3 #986, R-1 #212, Gate #913, Gate #919, BU #80, BU #100. I have yet to come up with the Lo-V numbers from the 1928 Times Square wreck.
Wayne
Add 9527 to that (12-9 #6 Line)
3950 (12-9 A line)
whatever 666 is now (passenger drag F line))
8569 if it isn't at Naporano's (12-9 C Line)
Whatever else gets to your head or takes it off.
R46 #666 is now #5820. I don't often get to see the unit numbers when there's a 12-9. However, I'd add the number of the R68 involved in the Kendra Webdale incident to that list, due to the sheer horror of it.
Wayne
Anything with number 58. I hate that humber and 1958 was the most miserable year of my life. When I'm teaching history and we get to that year I tell the class that I will refer to that year as Nineteen Fifty Yuk. I mean it. I'm 58 and can't wait until October 27 when I turn 59. How many people do you know over50 who are anxious for their next birthday. I did not ride and will not ride any train, bus, or anything with fifty-yuk on it.
So you would've been about 17? I wouldn't pry but around that age (barring the tragic) it usually takes a girl to produce true misery.
I'm not superstitious, but I've had a few really bad years--in which it seemed almost everything that could go wrong did--don't ask. ;-)
1983 was such a year for me - both my mother-in-law and father-in-law died 110 days apart; my own parents sold their Elmont house and moved to Virginia; my wife had a car accident; numerous other things went wrong. I don't bear R62A #1983 any ill over it, though.
Wayne
WayneMrSlantR40---As the poem said, "You're a better man than I Gunga Din."
Mine was 1991. My cousin was killed in Desert Storm. My father lost his job. I lost my job. My mother got cancer. I was almost killed in a car crash. I broke up with my first girlfriend. My brother got into trouble with the law. A truly forgettable 12 months.
However, I'd never not ride R62 1991. The number had absolutley nothing to do with what happened. But if it was 1313, I'm getting off at the next stop. LOL
Chris: I feel like I'm now wallowing in self-pity. You really had a bad year in 1991 that makes mine look like chump change. I hope things are a lot better for you now. I didn;t like 1991 either. Maybe I needed that wake up call from you. The best to you.
Paul--I know you are smart but not this time. 195YUK was miserable because my baseball playing deteriorated that year, I put on a lot of weight, had a lousy graveyard dishwashing job, and started college when I wasn;t ready or mature enough. I wish it had been a girl, then I would have had some excuse. It wasn't. The girls came later, and I was very lucky with girls----no Romeo, just lucky that I always seemed to meet the kind I liked. But 195#$##### is still a nightmare.
I was given a T-shirt for my 50th birthday many, many years ago that said " 50 isn't old if you're a tree"
Knock on wood :-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
RIM SHOT!!
Then again, as long as some dog doesn't enter the picture. Know what I mean, know what I mean? Nudge, nudge?
Woof!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hey Karl, I'm getting close to 60. Do you have a shirt for occasion I could borrow?
Gee, I just hope R142 #6321 has a better lifespan than R16 #6321. LOL
#6321, when it arrives, should be a cab car. So should #6666. Units ending in 1, 5, 6 and 0 are probably going to be the cab units. I'm surprised they're going to reissue #6304, since there were fatalities involved. Maybe they should number that bunch #6300-01-02-03-05 instead of #6301-02-03-04-05.
Wayne
Any other other numbers for fatalities- and are the numbers retired or have they been reused?
I posted earlier on this - the "Black List".
BU Trailer #100 destroyed in Malbone Street wreck:
They reused #100 not once, but TWICE - once as an R-1 (which survives to this day), and again as an R44.
I'm sure the Lo-V's from the Times Square wreck have been reused (but I don't know exactly what they were).
BU Motors #726, #728 - reused as R-4s and as R-46s.
Wayne
Ditto for R142 #6494...Hope that car has a much better and longer life than R16 #6494.
I think all the R-16s can be lumped together in that regard. They deserved a better fate.
OK My blacklist of car numbers...
R62 #1391, #1435, #1436, #1437, #1439 and #1440
R40 #4444
R40M #4461 and #4496
R42 #4664
R32 #3669 and #3348
R44 (SIRT) #404, #420 and #444
R46 #6093 (old #533)
A number of these are still in service, no? Were those 12-9 (person under train) incidents? I was on #4444 on the "L" a couple of years ago, no problem there. Has something happened since?
Wayne
No, the number '4' in a certain language almost sounds like the word for 'death', hence the bad connotation.
#4496 is also listed as it reminds me of a very horrible day in my life.
Nick C. Does that mean I'm in trouble? My favorite number is 44. When I coached baseball that was always the number on my uniform. I figured as I became an adult, I should change by favorite number from 4 to 44. It worked out very well for me since my teams won over 87% of their games and won for me two National Babe Ruth League titles. I emphasize it was the players who did it and not me. You have to have the talent to win and I did. I still love #44.
If you decided to stop having favorites because someone else hates that something, you will have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to like. I also hear that the number 6, in a certain language (languages, actually) sounds like the word for gender.
I DO NOT intend to offend with this post. I apologize if you have been offended.
No. It's because in Chinese and Korean that the number 4 is synonymous with the word for death (sei). Hence the "bad" element.
Nick C.
And as for SIRT #404 (darkest day in the calendar for me, explained in a post about 10 minutes before this one), #444 (explained in that same post)......
For SIRT #420, that is very self-explanatory for many people including high schoolers...One guess on why this car is on my blacklist.
Same goes for SIRT #419, which I had left out in my blacklist, but for an entirely different reason.
Also, I for one might boycott riding R68 #2693 (some probably will avoid that car all together).
R62 #1391 is **very** obvious...
[For SIRT #420, that is very self-explanatory for many people including high schoolers...]
Well, I'm quite some years out of high school, so could you explain?
If Columbine does not ring a bell...then I don't know what else would.
So, what's 1391 and 2693?
1391 was in the Fulton St firebombing. I remember that day. Transferring from the D to the 4 at Atlantic and trains were turned around because of a "smoke condition"........
3TM
116St. Transfer available to the M7, M102, and the M116. The next station will be 125St. Stand clear of the closing doors........
#2693 = 2-6-93 Day of the infamous WTC bombing.
Nick
I show the date as 2/26/93.
Wayne-MrSlant40: OI just told someone else how I love #44; its my favorite number. Number 4444 sounds like music to my ears.
Fred; Did you get a chance to read my posting in response to your query about the Green Hornet? I put it up about two days ago.
Larry,RedbirdR33
RedbirdR33: I sure did and I commented that the Green Hornet serials I used to see on Saturday mornings at the Beacon Movie House in Long Island City were my favorites. I loved seeing the Green Hornet and Sea Beach tied together. Brings back a lot of memories but I never knew there was a Green Hornet Sea Beach until you told me. For some reason my father never told me, or at least I don't think he did.
Even though you may be partial to the #4 (Sea Beach) train, you may see Car #4444 if you look around on the #16 (it would be wearing its everyday grey "L", of course). There was a Lo-V #4444 at one time as well, probably up until 1961 when the Redbirds arrived.
Speaking of cars with all the same number: does anyone rememember what happened to R10 #3333 back on December 12, 1978?
Wayne
I'll bet if anyone does, it would be Mr. R-10 himself, William Padron.
Wayne-MrSlantR40--Thanks for the info. Unfortunately, I'm back in California three thousand miles away. When I get to New York again, you can bet I will look that car up.
Train Operator is being offered for the first time as Open Competitive. This is WRONG!!!!!!!!!!!!!. TA states that they need more names on a list to fill the growing demand of Train Operators needed. They plan to fill this need by giving a non-tecnical open compeitive exam. I say , if numbers is what you need give an non-tecnical promotional exam. TA will get thier numbers an TA employees wont feel shafted. Willie James where are you?
The union has filed an injunction to stop the exam. The TA
has filed both motions to dismiss and a continueance.
TWU's suit has been filed under the grounds that the
examination process violates the 1964 Federal civil rights
laws.
I'm not sure I agree with the choice of tactics.
Ask your self this: service hasn't been increased in any
signifigant way. Yet there is an urgent need for T/O's?
Why the high turn over?
Transit has been treating the crews poorly for years. They
provide inadequeate training, and when you cause an
accident or make a mistake, discipline is extremely harsh.
Now they wan't to hire from the out side because those of
us here already refuse to submit themselves to that abuse.
LET THEM!
In today's roaring economy, the only ones who will take
the job (different from taking the test) will be those
college graduates who can't get another job. As it is out
side of police and fire, civil service draws the worst of
the employable population. We're charecterized as lazy for
a reason!
The good applicants who actually take the job will leave
as soon as they can find a better job when they see that
they will have to work 10 years untill they can get S/S
off or a day job!
So then what does this acomplish? I'll tell you. It gives
the TA bring in fresh blood. People they think will
beetter employees. Boy I can't wait for this to blow up in
their faces!
For a dozen years TA has gone out of it's way to hire the
under educated, the under employable. All under the guise
of being an "equal oppoutnity employer" What a CROCK!
THESE PEOPLE WERE HIRED BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE DEPENDENT ON
THE TA! Without TA they would be asking "will there be
fries with that?"
These people were assumed to be fearful of discipline or
loosing their jobs. They would be good employees, without
being absent often or causing problems at work. They would
be eager to work and for less money. Fearful of going back
on welfare or to being a bike messnger they would behave.
Management never forgot the 1980 strike. The old employees
had to go.
So now we live with the results. Excessive disipline for
employees who never really held positions of responsibiliy
before. Assaults between employees who have emotional problems, and accidents galore by undertrained personnel with out the neccesary intelligence to make up for their poor training.
I love this railroad, but I HATE the Transit Authority.
Also they can get rid of you faster as a person on probation from the street. Now If I mess up the worst that would happen is being busted down to Conductor. A guy from the street will just be fired!
I still can't get S/S working AM'S on the A Division but I can if I want to Work PM'S. Which is 3 Trips in and out with a lay up at the end.
But at least I can get the next best thing S/M off. But I still have to work the Holidays! What a stunt. A Saturday schedule for Chrismas Eve and day with same for New Years.
Now let us turn the scenario around a minute here. What if the T/O who left 13 inch flats on a work train I moved around today was done by a misfit who was hired off the street. How many of them do expect would come back to work after their 30 day suspension is over. With the college credit requirement as listed in the Chief-Leader paper last month in effect at hiring and the economy good, they wouldn't understand the dual employment rule and go get a better job in the interrim, therefore wasting the TA's exceptional training program and funding. Perhaps the TA might realize that then discriminate in handing out discipline when it comes to who had a former title and who didn't. There is a misconception that those who are in civil service can't get fired. The "Transit Professional" gave you exact numbers. You CAN get fired. I would bet good money that those with the open competetive T/O list numbers would not only get less discipline while on probation, but I'd bet my good overtime money that they might get better and slightly longer training to boot. That is what Im counting on when the union files an injunction of a discriminating factor against the TA
Thats a good point.
It is no secret that some Train Operator jobs work in excess of 8 hours per day. People who have worked overtime previously aren't getting it anymore. Extra board people are falling all over one another daily . Days off are denied especially on weekends eventhough extra board people are on hand. Now the TA wants to fire people who have a second job. I think they want these new people so ALL jobs can be 8 hours daily, 40 hours per week, they will not allow their employees to work second jobs, and those who own their own home will have to sell them and go into the rental market because we will be unable to pay the mortgage.
It's amazing how many people cry poverty in TA who choose to drive a Lexus or Acura to work when they could use the pass or buy a used rusted out Chevy to take care of the family in. For men and women making the base of 50 and not putting money away is questionable to me. A good friend of mine who I consider family is now a conductor with three kids who worked jobs with pay under and just over ten dollars an hour. He brown bagged his lunch every day and barely got bills paid at 7 dollars an hour roundabout. Some out there buy homes with mortgages that rely on overtime. One I know bought a $65,000 home on a twenty year deal costing him $1300 month. The thirty year might have lowered his monthly payments despite the fact he moved to the Poconos reqiring two to three reliable cars included in his budget. Im not telling anyone where to live or what to drive, Im just saying don't bite off more than you can chew. The contract guarantees only a fourty hour week, which is what almost everyone in transit was paid in the time before The TA cut jobs and paid the OT so save on hiring. People today complain about the excess cab time when back before panalty jobs, 60% of jobs were less than two trips. You can't have the cake and eat it too.
Harry,
I could not agree with you more. I would take the 40 hrs and 2 trips(I wish) and run.
The only problem being there over zealouse crusade to prevent a person from having any kind of a second job. Before I worked for the TA if I need a few extra dollars I worked a second job, which never interfered with my primary employment. In the summer time I used to make extra money in the charter bus industry, and I had a lot of fun driving charter buses.
The one thing I wish for the most, is for the TA to treat use with respect, and not like they own us. I agree with "Transit Profesional" I love this railroad and there is not a day that goes by that I wish it was not run by a bunch of heartless suits.
The whole second job thing is a thinly veiled attempt to
guage how many of us would be able to support ourselves
for a time if we went out on strike.
Forcing employees to sign a statement is a way to make
sure we are dependent on the TA and can't strike.
Hoffmann, Rueter, et al, those guys are really affraid.
With Il Guilliani sitting in City Hall they know it's
their heads if we do. Dec. 15. Before the biggest New
Years any of will ever see?
Those arrogant asses know. They know all the unrest, low
morale, and open hostility in some cases. I get crews who
wan't to strike. Some don't care. They wan't to get even
for all the injustices of the past few years.
I don't think carreer scumbags like Hoffman and Ford and
Lombardi realize this. And all their bluster and threats
won't stop us.
We don't need second jobs you ass***! We're all taking pension loans for two weeks pay! Payback is coming you moth*****rs! I pray to god, I really do. I pray that ll the carrer management get's fired. Let them see what it's like to be treated like dirt for a change!
Word has it that Supervision may call a strike on December 1,1999 if their demands aren't met, supposedly the SSSA(Subway Surface Supervisors Association) contract is stalled . Local 100 says contract negotiations start October 7th for Rank and File members ..
I know. FYI, I sit on the negotiting commitee. I will be amongst the delegation handling conductor issues. For all of us here, I will be faithfully relating all the information I can.
If there is a strike, you may regret voting down the media surcharge. There are two sides to the rank and file's pay and working conditions, but only one side will be in the media. The strategy will be to turn the anger of the general public against the workers, not management. As for Giuliani and Pataki, taxi and commuter rail strikes are serious, because they affect important people. Transit strike? If people don't show up for work for a couple of weeks, just dock their pay.
I hope that the supervisors call a strike. Then us hourly will be locked out. Then, I believe we're not affected by the Taylor Law. Brian
You aren't a former member of the Umpire's union, are you?
Brian, that's a fat chance. TA will pull all the stupidintendents and clerical they can find to fill in for the stupidvisors. If they were smart they would get together with us for Dec 15.
That would be nice. Brian
TA Labor Negotiator Robert Finnigan would love that. For those of you who don't recognize the name, Mr. Finnigan is the same Finnigan who represented the Air Traffic Controllers during the strike where Reagan fired them all. Now he's pitching for the other team.
After SENILE IN OFFICE reagan destroyed organized labor in America and the idiotic AFL-CIO of the time didn't smash the satan administration into the ground with a general strike., Bob Finnegan probably figured that if you cant lick 'em, join 'em Can't blame him, really.
If I remember correctly, most of the controllers DID rehire after a year.
That is not true, Some were rehired by Clinton soon after he took office but the reagan and bush cabals enforced a STRICT ban on hiring them
Maybe TWU can hire Richie Phillips, head of the Major League Umpires Union. He should be availiable soon!
I drive a 10 year old Chevy with 75,000 miles on it and the rust is coming! If we had all that money in our pockets which is taken out for pension, then we wouldn't need a raise! My point is this: yes I own a home and yes, I couldn't make it on a 40 hour week. And if I need a second job eventually, the TA wants to fire me! I have 2 kids who I would like to have a better childhood than I had living in a cramped 3 room apartment, always being hounded by a landlord complaining about hearing footsteps all the time walking around the apartment, bitching when something in the apartment needs to be repaired. Many of my fellow TA employees support only themselves, many of us have to divide our salary among the family. I always thought that hard work and long hours in this country was the key to living better with a few "luxuries". With current TA policies, living the American dream of home ownership may turn out be be our worst nightmare when everybody gets 40 hours. As usual, the TA is changing the rules of the game after the opening kickoff!
Lets see what will happen when the first brave soldier gets a lawyer and sues the city and the TA. I know one train operator who has almost ten kids through several marriages under one house who went to the Department of Welfare when the TA cut all his overtime a few years back because of excessive overtime. The TA was told by welfare to reimburse the monies to be collected by the individual. They quickly changed their tune and let him work the overtime again. We really need to strike but with support of the probationaries which won't happen. If we can get the Local 100 bus drivers of the private lines that would help. A rulebook slowdown in proportion of the 92 prepackaged pick definately would have Joe Hoffman and Roto Rooter Reuter typing resumes and worrying about employment. The SSSA guys havn't had a contract since Feb 15 of 1998 so there is potential that some if not most of the local supervision would join the line or assist in the ABDs of intervals. The biggest Times Square ball drop shall hopefully include the homeball dropping by Tower Operators. The slowdown shortly before the contract expires would cut into the biggest sales tax collection period, the Christmas shopping season. The right time is NOW to organize whether TWU or New Directions. Forget about Willie James and think about the money TA management is claiming surplus. They take from the workers who run, maintain and support the very organization that is trying to fire, deny compensation, abuse then discard workers like rotten fruit. Excessive discipline, forced arbitration and lowered benefits are dangerous tools used by management but can be attacked with the heavy artilary, the brake handles, reversers, wheelchair keys and the Peacock Handbrake ratcheting the sounds of stopped trains and buses as we look for a contract. The two for one fine provisions of the Taylor Law don't apply to individuals in the field who are SIGNED ON THE PAYROLL just "doing their jobs" as the rulebook says "employees must be conversant with and obey rules pertaining to the operation of the NYCTA". I don;t consider anything of this matter a slowdown as rules are regularly violated as a norm; otherwise Labor Relations personnel would go back to the road, wouldn't they? If the NYCTA goes through a day that no one was written up, they should be happy but they wouldn't be because of the 70%/30% suspension in lieu of fine clause which saved them close to $375,000 a year in reduced costs. That is a monetary incentive to write up personnel so we have a monetary incentive to obey rules. Lets get it together and do the right thing before the outside T/Os come in and our jobs are lost forever.
Yesterdays paper had TA spokesman Al O'Leary caught fibbing.
He claims only 32 people passed the 1998 T/O exam. Yes. What he neglected to tell them was how the test was RIGGED! How there were questions about P-Wire R-46's and questions that aren't even on a TSS exam!
Then he had the nerve to claim only 800 candidates are eligible from this most recent exam! He deliberately left out all the provisionals who took the exam, and already have the job! All told there were well over 2000 people who passed that test. Many have already been apointed
and were not counted. That skewers the numbers. Just goes to show, you can make statistics say anything you want.
They knew that going into the 1998 test. Which iswhy hey wrote it that way.
Yesterdays paper had TA spokesman Al O'Leary caught
fibbing.
He claims only 32 people passed the 1998 T/O exam. Yes.
What he neglected to tell them was how the test was
RIGGED! How there were questions about P-Wire R-46's and
questions that aren't even on a TSS exam!
Then he had the nerve to claim only 800 candidates are
eligible from this most recent exam! He deliberately left
out all the provisionals who took the exam, and already
have the job! All told there were well over 2000 people
who passed that test. Many have already been apointed
and were not counted. That skewers the numbers. Just goes
to show, you can make statistics say anything you want.
They knew that going into the 1998 test. Which is why they
wrote it that way, so no one would pass. So they could take their lies to the civil service and claim there was a "shortage".
Satan runs the TA.
Yes Satan does run the TA. And Al O'leery is his spokesman.
This is not really appropriate for this forum.
-Dave
If there really is a shortage of qualified labor, the usual solution is to raise wages and recruit widely. They plan to recruit widely, but they don't seem to be interested in the raise wages part.
That also holds true in the NYPD where many apply for neighboring Nassau County where the wages are significantly more. On that subject did you hear the latest radio ad by the Patrolman's Benev. Association protesting a new city law that would allow 1 year suspensions to officers who commit violations? It is no wonder that the NYPD had extended their last police exam by a month or more. The only reason I beleive that people still run to the TA is the wages. At least the police were allowed to moonlight on part time jobs where as the TA feels they "own" their workers on a copyright principle. It is a shame that many straphangers complain about the system but know a person who works the "60 feet under" system.
Satan runs the TA
There's no shortage of qualified applicants. It's a completely manufacured shortage!
Willie James is no one without the support of his members. Metro-North went on slowdowns resulting in the dropping of part time conductors when it could have been just as easy for their union leader (TWU Local 100 along with the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers) to sell them out. Why? Because their members showed they gave a damn not only while voting on the contract but while running their service!!! When the on-time performance falls, management tempers rise. On the bright side the newly hired cops who must have college credits are far more likely to attend their union meetings. Even they go on ticket writing slowdowns every now and then when Gooliani backs them into a corner. Whether or not you like James, you can show you dislike for him next election but THIS year is contract time. YOU ARE THE UNION, James only leads it.
The dislike of Willie was well proven with the rejection of the media tax idea.
I have asked this before and still have not received a satisfactory answer.. WHY is a person with some (not even 2 years) college less desirable as a train operator than a car cleaner? Personally, I feel MOST CTAs have demonstrated that they can not work without direct supervision, that they are poorly motivated, and are extremely lacking in technical skills. In general, they are less educated and more accident prone too. Why should we not look to a more educated class of people to fill positions in what is arguably our most safety sensative position?
I agree. We have discussed this before. What I disagree with is TA's tactics. Instead of manufacturing some false "shortage" just come out and say it. "We have been hiring idiots. So we need to find better people" Enough games.
Maybe you should ask the more educated people why they don't want to fill the safety sensative jobs in the TA. When I worked in NJT most of it's 20 to 40 year employees came out of high school too. What does that say about the NYCTA? About it's selectivness in hiring? If you hire a retard and he eventually promotes to top supervision, obviously he will recognize those below him as subordinates and eventually subhumans. When the subordinate he runs into is smarter than he is what happens next? I understand the engineer who designed the Vapor MDC was eventually terminated from transit. Who took his fire? That explains why padlocks on suggestion boxes are non existant. Smart people at NYCTA are targets, escpecially those in rank and file. NJT has won countless safety awards due to it's SAFE, reliable, SAFE, ontime and did I say SAFE railroad as you can get. The Bergen County head on collision was their only since their takeover of the Pennylessyvania and Lackamoney railroads. They spend money on 15 month training classes, money on constant repairs to equipment and most important, money on improving their safety for both passengers and employees alike. The NYCTA WILL NEVER GET A HARRIMAN AWARD as long as bean counters like Reuter, Hoffman and Satan try to run a safety sensitive operation like Bill Gates runs Microsoft.
SATAN RUNS THE TA
On a related topic: That same car cleaner can take a promotional exam to Maintenance Helper- a well paying job: more than conductor, more than train operator! I have a college degree- FOUR years and I can not take the test- even as open competitve. I dont pretend to be an electrician but I can wire telephone jacks, rewire lamps, new wall switches, new outlets, etc. IN one job I was in charge of two copy machines- I knew the machines so well I'd tell the boxx to call the repairman because they will break down in one hour (and yes they did!) It got to the point where I told the serviceman what was wrong with the machine and 99% of the time I was right. the 1%? 99% of those it was my thing PLUS something else. Only 1% of 1% was I totally off. I could tell a paper jam just fromsound be be at the machine, key in hand by the time they turned around to call for help!
How about making ALL Jobs available to ALL employees. Sure, I'd like to get into maintenance! I dont mind getting dirty!
The car cleaner may not know the black wire from the white wire from the green wire (Hot, Neutral, ground) and they can get the training and get the job. I intend to obey the rules but let's be fair!
Just a joke: all wires on a transit car are basically the same color. Low voltage is either white or light blue. High vlotage tends to be grey. Look at the boot marker for the correct wire.
Selecting people by merit descriminates against those who have none. Or, as was said re G. Harold Carswell, even mediocrety deserves representation. As I'm sure you're aware, hiring and retaining employees according to the quality of their qualifications and their work is incompatible with union labor. It occures to me that you're probably just trying to give your friend Eric the needle.
I think if you follow some of Eric's postings, you'll find that we are in agreement on this issue. He's stated many times that he has no problem with getting the most qualified person for the open position. He simply objects to the TA's methods. Hence, no needles are required as I also find some of the TA's ways troubling. However, I find some of the TWU's ways equally troubling. The trouble with selecting people by merit is that merit is subjective and the playing field is rarely a level one. So it is in the management end and so it will be in the supervisory and hourly ranks.
Thanks Steve.
It's true. I do wish TA would hire better employees. We should select people the way any good business does. Remember when "discriminating" was a compliment? We should not select people based on a test which measures how well someone read the ARCO book, but on whether they are qualified. Then TA get's better employees and TWU gets better members.
Fair enough. Maybe they need a competitve exam for exam designers.
Over the weekend I caught the tail-end of a commercial with a homeless/bag lady walking away from a dumpster with someones arms and legs dangling out from the inside. The action all took place on a subway platform as an R-32 or 38 went by in the background.
I get the impression this ad for home video-gaming, was showing that the litte old lady kicked some guys a--, big time. I think the ad was for Nintendo/Playstation.
I know they used Hoyt-Schermerhorn because I was riding on a rush-hour A train about a month ago and saw the southbound platform was lit and that some camera crew was adjusting some extra lighting on an old woman in tattered clothing who was being attended to by a make-up artist. Got to see all that while the train was making it's routine stop (most of the folks on the packed car were rubber-necking to get a look at the unusual use of the adjacent platform).
Doug aka BMTman
I believe it is for Sega Dreamcast. In fact it shows a R38 leaving the station........
BTW, I have been away for a couple of days and will probably be for a couple of more as I prepare for an unwanted guest that goes by the name of Floyd. You guys might know him too!!! He is supposed to hit SC sometime tomorrow. Classes here are cancelled as people try to leave.
3TM
96St. Last transfer to the 1 and 9 local and skip-stop service to 242-Manhattan College/Van Cortlandt Park. On the upper level, transfer available to M96 and M106. 148 bound 3 now making local stops. The next station will be 110-CPN. Step in, Step on, Step off, step out and stand clear of the closing doors......
Thanks 3Train (can I call you that for short?). I was guessing as to the specific video-game company -- Sega would've been my second guess.
BTW, was what I saw all there was to the commercial? I hope there would've been more scenes of the station or a another train going by.
Doug aka BMTman
Yep, I've been watching the Weather Channel periodically through the day (I was off today, burning up an excess sick day), and Floyd looks like nothing but trouble.
It looks like South Carolina might take the brunt of it. There was just a bit piece on the 10 O'clock News which featured Hizzoner answering questions as to whether NYCT will be ready for a deluge of hurricane rain, should it come this way. Based on the last heavy rain we had, I wonder...
Wayne
I escaped Floyd. We hardly got any winds and little rain. Right now blue skies, sunny and the temperature is about 80 here in Columbia,SC. My parents tell me that you guys are going to feel it up there. My mom works for the Board of Ed and she said that there was no school. My dad also took the day off.... My brother is deciding to go to work this afternoon. My sister went to work ut Im sure she will be home shortly because she worked by the water. I wish everybody the best up there and stay safe and keep on posting....
3TM Escaped Floyd
135St. Final transfer to 2 train to 241-White Plains Rd, making all local stops. On the upper level transfer available to the Bx33 to 138St. 148 bound 3 making local stops. 145St is next. You must exit from the first 5 cars at 145St. Stand clear........
Hoyt-Schermerhorn is very popular with film producers. Of course, having a couple of unused platforms and tracks certainly doesn't hurt. I seem to recall a commercial filmed there which featured an A train of R-38s on one of the outer tracks.
So is Hoboken Terminal..nice old vaulted train station.....I think a new Master Card commercial was filmed there...
As well as at least one music video - Eric Clapton's "Change the World". Nicely done.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Don't forget to make those mental (and online) notes regarding this Saturday's tour of the trackage and related sites of Brooklyn's Waterfront area.
See 'Upcoming Events' for further details.
Barring some kind of Hurricane disaster, this trip is ON!
Hope to have you on board...y
Sincerely, your tour guide,
Doug aka BMTman
I thought this trip was originally scheduled for this past Saturday the 11th. Glad to see it was rescheduled, as I had prior commitments on that day. Maybe it was moved up a week because of Rosh Hashana?
In any event, I hope to be there. Let's hope Hurricane Floyd is past by then.
Howard: This reminds me of a headline that appeared in the New York Herald-Tribune on the moring of November 10,1965,the day after the famous Northeast Blackout. "SUBWAY PASSENGERS FORCED TO WALK FIVE MILES THROUGH TUNNEL." Many subway trains were stranded between stations and it was necessary for people to walk through the tunnel to the next station to exit accompanyed by emergency workers. This particular story was supposedly about a stalled train in the 60 Street Tunnel whose passengers had to walk to 14 St-Union Square to exit.notwithstanding the fact that there were eight stations inbetween. The Herald-Trib could go one up on the Post when it came to hyperbole.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Of course if this had been a sub-talk fantrip we would at least have walked as far as the lower level of City Hall Station.
I'll be there, unless hurricane Floyd makes it impossible!
9/14/99
If Hurricane Floyd makes a direct hit on Saturday the Brooklyn waterfront will be the waterfront. Pray for sunlight !!
Bill Newkirk
Well taken, Bill!
Before hitting the sack last night, I saw the forecast and it looks like Saturday will have excellent walking weather.
Floyd is a strong, yet fast-moving system. The likes of him should be gone by late Friday (so long as he doesn't stall-out over the Carolinas -- otherwise he'll get here later than expected).
Keep your fingers crossed.
Doug aka BMTman
I like natural disasters, they're great excuses for staying home. So, I'll be praying for the opposite.
Spoken like a person who doesn't have to pay the bills or dig out from the rubble when problems occur. I still don't have all the repairs made to my North Carolina home from hurricane Fran, in September 1996; my 19-year-old son is riding out Floyd in our house there, just as he, his brother, and his momma did when Fran came through (I was in New Jersey working). Power has been out for about four hours now, a couple of large limbs have come down, and the eye of the storm is still nearly 200 miles from our house. 'Tain't funny. We had serious damage from Fran - front porch smashed, three trees on the house, three lying on the barn and three more picked up and speared through the roof of the barn, but we made out a lot better than the owners of the nearly-completed new house across the road - the only thing left of that one was the chimney. And the current forecast for Floyd calls for winds of somewhat higher strength than Fran. The only saving grace is that the current track will put the eye to the east of our house rather than slightly to the west, which should mitigate things to some extent.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's right I don't have to pay the bills yet (except for my part of the credit card bill), but I still have to suffer the consequences from any storm damage. However, knowing about where my house is and how it's built, the worst damage other than losing power or having the antenna or some other small items, like the front awning, is if a tree falls on the house. Since I've already gotten my wish, I hope than now, minimal damage will be done.
9/14/99
On yesterdays outing to the electric underground,I rode the (E) out of
Sutphin and took the usual front window of an R-32. After leaving 74th & Broadway,the express passed 65th st and then when about to pass Northern Blvd.Then,Two red signals. The train was not tripped but the train operator dumped before the red signal. There was some strange air sounds coming from the cab,as if the TO was lapping the brake handle. After charge up,brakes were released and we were on our way. Now the question. Are any infractions or writeups leavied against a TO for being TRIPPED or dumping before a red signal ?
Bill Newkirk
The Transit Professional, are your ears open. Trains passing red signals with train stop arms at danger with no dumping of brake pipe. Either the wheels were changed on the car with the shop not readjusting trip cock height or the tripper arm was out of adjustment. Maybe it was signal failure that caused the track relay to drop causing the retaining circuit to hold the stop clear. This could be caused by a shorted IJ or the infamous steel dust problem on NYCT. However, with this being the case, the TO would have got tripped at the first red signal.
I think that "lapping" sound he heard was the main reservior venting at the unseated emergency vent valves. This always happens when a T/O doesn't wait the appropriate penalty time after placing the valve in emergency to agree with the emergency application. Undesired and desired emergency applications are required by rule to be called in to control center. No comment on any violations in this case and thanks for not posting car numbers :-)
I think what Bill said was the t/o saw the red signal, put the
train in emergency, and came to a stop short of the signal.
As for violations etc., ahem, well, basically any time the train
goes in the hole while moving is supposed to be reported. Hitting
an automatic signal and then just charging up and proceeding is
mucho bad (but that's not what happened in this case). Making an
emergency stop to avoid tripping on the signal translates to
"t/o was not in control of his/her train"
9/14/99
As a followup on my post,this was only an observation of what I saw. We all mistakes and I really wouldn't "rat out" an employee. Some of my best friends are motormen. A couple are conductors !!
Bill Newkirk
(A) your weren't on MY train, and (B) he/she may have been wrong, but nobody is dumb enough (hopefully) to bang himself in for tghat kind of mistake. But if a TSS or Supt were riding that train and there was a knock on the door after the incident, well........
9/16/99
Bill from Maspeth,
The funny thing about this is I don't remember seeing an amber signal. Al of a sudden two reds. Could this be a signal problem? The T/O didn't curse which may be a giveaway that a mistake occured. There wasn't a train ahead of us either. Somebody in an earlier thread mentioned something about a steel dust problem. Maybe that was the culprit?
Bill Newkirk
I suggested a steel dust problem shorting an insulated rail joint causing two track circuits to show occupancy.
Does sound like a signal malfunction then.
I want to really board on the following car #s:
R62 #1357
R62A #1978, #1996, #2000, #2222, #2345 and #2468
R46 #5500 (ex #1118), #5678, #5784, #5975 (ex #1085), #6195, #6214 (ex #1234)
R29 #8642 and #8765
R33 #8888 (yeah!)
R32/32A #3456
R40 #4321
R44 #5432
R142/142A #6489 (Tianamen Car), #6543, #6789, #7531 and #7654 [No chance until next year]
I have already boarded a nice numbered car:
R42 #4567
What happen to be your favorite numbers?
Nick C.
Oops forgot to list one more...
R40 #4248 The "miracle" car...the lead car that passed over a fallen passenger at 36th St, but totally not touching her. (Daily News story sometime in '97 or '98).
I'll say that's a miracle - he had a NASTY crash back in the early 80's up at Dyckman Street, wound up plowing into R38 #4063 and messing up his slanted beak. I think he got his new nose from donor car #4421. He was in bad shape after that crash, but the body doctors at 207th Street Shoppe fixed him right up. It never ceases to amaze me how they graft and transplant noses and bonnets from one R40/R40M/R42 to another. I saw them putting a new nose on #4612 after he had a run-in with R32 #3629 at Columbus Circle. Other cars with new noses are #4501, #4918, #4461 (a slant nose yet - it's not finished yet, and will be #4260).
I will put a second post up for my favorite car numbers.
Wayne
I like cars that end in "111": R62A #2111, R38 #4111, R68A #5111, R46 #6111, R21 #7111, R27 #8111, R33 #9111 etc. I also like some of the "Years of Our Lives" cars you see on the #3 - #1943, #1911, #1954, #196(all 10 of them). I also like cars that have all the same number, (R40 #4444, R46 #5555, etc.) or cars that end in "18", "37", "44" or "88". Paired numbers too (2525, 3535, 4545 etc.) like in the song "In The Year 2525".
Wayne
7773. It has the R-21 storm door. It's great when you catch it at the front.
--Mark
Don't forget the R26 #7821 has R21 storm door & i been that train couple time.
Peace Out
Meaney
9/14/99
I don't know the car number but there is an R-26 running around with an R-12/14 cab door. When the overhauls began in the late 80's I rode that car at Atlantic Ave. The door was on the #2 end if my memory serves me correct. Find that number and add that to your list of favorites.
Bill Newkirk
What's the difference between an R-12/14 cab door and the modern Redbird doors? Speaking of doors and related things, I think that silver window frames and silver cab doors on the Redbirds stick out like a sore thumb. That's why I like the old window R-26/28s (29?) on the 5 and the World's Fair R-36 (I can't say I like the R-33S in any way except that there's ample seating in the summertime, but I'd rather stand).
9/14/99
MVM,
The give away is the R-12/14 cab doors have air louvers on the bottom. All the others don't.
Bill Newkirk
I liked Triplex 6083.
Other railfans also liked that car number, but no one could explain why.
What is your favorite car and do u have a certain character u use mostly?
I guess BMT Triplexes were my favorite, with BMT Standards a close second.
It's hard to choose in other ways. For example, I'd like to be able to ride Lo-Vs in regular again, but I don't really think they'd be better than R62's as contemporary transit cars.
It would be great to have 1300 series BU's on all the outdoor lines during the summer, but they were pretty slow (although maybe not so much considering all the ways they've restricted subway speeds in recent years).
9/14/99
Paul,
I don't see how the #1300 series "el" cars could be slow. Now the "Q" types with those SLOW composite car trucks . But the BRT "el" cars had the Peckham 40 trucks. Remember Malbone St ?
Bill Newkirk
It felt like the 1300s could go a good speed once they got started. But they started at a fairly leisurely pace.
The Malbone Street train had the "advantage" of a long downgrade. Still it's questionable how fast it was going--the estimates of eyewitnesses weren't reliable.
I believe the train was probably going 30-40 mph by the time it hit that curve. Remember, it was a 6mph curve. Even so, there was responsible opinion that the train might have navigated the curve anyway if it hadn't had two consecutive trailers.
9/14/99
Paul,
Perhaps those 1300's were speed governed! The Q's on old Myrtle were governed so as not to be speed demons. I'll ask my buddy Don Harold about this,he knows "el" cars inside out.
Bill Newkirk
Wouldn't it be great to be able to ride those 1300's again? To hear the clatter of the gates and those bell signals? My recollection is that the gate cars were faster than the "Standards", and not just the 1300's, but the 600's and 900's as well. My gut feeling in those days was that the R-10's were the fastest cars in service.
The 1300s were the only gate cars I ever rode in regular service.
I would characterize the cars as having "rambled" which I would define as running at a pleasant even clip, but I never got the impression of speed I got on a Standard or Triplex.
Still, I'm mindful of some police training I had 30 years ago, when I was made to understand how subjective speed perception is. Loudness, vibration, size (when watching from outside the moving object), ride quality all contribute to an impression of speed.
Still, as Freud observed, "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar" and I would be surprised if someone told me my instincts were wrong--a Multi or R-10 rarely exceeded 35 mph.
Oh, the R-10s ran faster than 35 mph, no question about that. They could reach 50 easily. In terms of brute speed, they had no equal. Add to that the fact that their decibel level was a bit higher than average, so you felt you were going even faster.
I have to admit that even now, with speedometers to back it up, 35 mph in a tunnel is a fairly good clip. A tunnel always gives the impression of going faster than in actuality.
9/15/99
Hands down my favorite is the BMT Standard. Three roof styles,long and wide body and an open front window gives me goosebumps to this day. I remember riding the unrebuilt AB's on family outings to Coney Island. If you remember the Museum B's (2390-91-92),those unused inverted motorman's cab to a seven year old child was like a private room. They were retired 8/4/69,on my birthday when I turned 18.
Bill Newkirk
We were out on an all-day subway ride that day (August 4, 1969) - we were all round the Eastern Division that day - 96 degrees hot. One of the highlights was an R40M out for a break-in on the "LL" with the A/C cranked up to the max - Ice cold. Car #4300 was the ice box. And we saw the last AB limping back to Fresh Pond Yard on the "M" later in the day.
Wayne
As for my personal favorite, it's a tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s. The former for their marvelous sounds and the latter for their brute speed and holding down the fort on my favorite route for so many years. While I remember the BMT standards very well, I didn't particularly care for them back then because they didn't have end signs. I've come to appreciate them now for what they were - durable and practically indestructible.
I still wish I could have sampled the Triplexes....
Hey Guys and Gals,
Tough call for my favorite car. To me it's a tie between the ABs and D-types; like I said before, they go together like peanut butter and jelly, can't have one without the other IF you are a Southern Division fan. (If you were, and are an Eastern Division fan, in all likelihood you very rarely saw the D-types).
Oh well, Gimme Dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!
Mike H
I would have to say my favorite is the 1200 and 1400 series BU cars. Peferably with steps,traps and trolley pole in place. There was a discussion in this thread about speeds? I can remember Members Day 1984 at Shoreline, riding 1227-G el train. The motorishi was the gentleman who basically got 1227 able to be used regularly ( Joe Cavanaugh for any BERA members). Well to make a long story short we were doing well above 35 before we hit Stoney Creek trestle!!!
R62A- 1661,1900,2222,2406
R26- 7777,7821
R36- 9505,9522
9/14/99
On yesterdays outing to check on the progress on the #7 City Subway line,all PCC's observed have operating pantographs. These cars trolley poles were not removed but hooked in the down position. When the next car's wheel flanges grinded around the bend and entered the station,the headlight was unusually bright. I was told that the voltage was upped from 600 VDC to 750VDC. Is this true? At Franklin Avenue loop it looks like the loop track was redone or reballasted at least. However something new is going on. As we know the line is to be extended past Franklin Avenue to a new maintenance facility and I guess some more stations. The elevated freight right of way (Is it abandoned?) is at an unusual angle so the two track line won't climb up to the ROW that easily. It seems that when it leaves the new Branch Brook Park station and continues,the line will curve sharply left,cross the street at grade! and run parallel to the freight line and gradually climb to join the line. The new concrete retaining walls are up and the earth movers were grading the new ROW. Also all the new catenary poles are up and the old ones still remain. The trolley wire,notice I didn't say catenary ,remains at Franklin Avenue.This will be replaced when this portion is reconfigured. However the new pantographs glide under it effortlessly. Yet trolley polls can't be used because the old trolley wire had a more graceful curve on curved sections. The catenary curves are harsh (leaving Warren St) Work is progressing fast so don't wait till the last moment to get your last shots.
Bill Newkirk
Bill Newkirk
[ car's wheel flanges grinded around the bend and entered the
station,the headlight was unusually bright. I was told that the voltage was upped from 600 VDC to 750VDC. Is this true? ]
I don't know if they changed the voltage, but I'm sure that the headlight works on low-voltage -- i.e. battery, and not on the line voltage. I don't know the exact details of the PCC voltage regulation system, but I would bet 50:1 that the battery voltage is sufficiently regulated that the difference in traction voltage wouldn't have a noticable effect on battery voltage.
In other words, the bright headlights may have been because you were excited to see them ( :) ), or perhaps they serviced the cars during their pantograph installation, cleaning/replacing headlights, etc.
9/14/99
That reminds me of something similar on Staten Island Railway. My friend is superintendant there and he told me a few years ago when the borrowed R-46's were running there at night that he couldn't get over how dim their headlights were compared to the R-44's (MUE-2's). He checked and found that the R-46's used 60 watt sealed beams while the R-44's used 100 watt sealed beams. Maybe they upgraded the headlamp on this car (#10),it sure was bright. I am always excited to see PCC's anyway!!
Bill Newkirk
they also added guard rail to turns an franklin stations. second why are the pans mounted "backward"
9/14/99
While riding PATH yesterday east of Harrison,I noticed the changing of the guard and the almost absence of Conrail motive power. All units were CSX except one GE DASH 8 still in Conrail Quality livery.Yet on the nose was an #8700 type number in yellow! Furthur east after passing the mothballed Jersey Arrow II's at a distance seemed some CSX units (3) fresh out of the paint shop. One was a GE Dash 8 unit with a #8700 type number. Looks like Conrail blue is fading fast,get you last shots!
Bill Newkirk
I guess we won't be seeing Conrail colors anymore, yet Conrail lives!!
Conrail operates the "joint service areas" for CSX and NSC in the Jersey, Philadelphia and Detroit areas. They're still headquartered at the same old stand in Philadelphia.
9/14/99
Paul,
Howcome two Dash-8 engines,one Conrail blue and one in CSX colors?
The Dash-8's are fairly new,is Conrail purging itself of excess motive power?
Bill Newkirk
Well, I suppose that the Dash-8s are being reassigned to CSX after the breakup, and could now end up anywhere on the CSX system. By the same token, other CSX power could well end up on the ex-Conrail lines. According to my son, a bunch of old, junky ex-CR engines, still in CR blue but with CSX numbers and lettered NYC, are working a couple of CSX branches in the Raleigh, NC area known as places where CSX "uses up" the worst of the worst.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Went out to TS yeaterday morning at 7 to catch the first day of the new GMA. Saw Giuliani as well as the tennis star holding her trophy and a puppy. Did anyone know that the ground floor portion of the set is designed like the old IRT Times Sq station? It has the old brick tiles, mosaics, an arch and even a map (new)! The letters "G", "M",and "A" are in bullets like train routes (all yellow though).
Also, a big attraction to me are the new full color LED display bands on the outside. They include blue, which is new technology. I was hhoping they would use this on the R-143's, so they could have the color of any route but from what a Telecite rep. told me, the TA is avoiding the full color because of costs (the blue and the new green used are more expensive) I wish they would reconsider.
Sorry to be ignorant - I'm not familiar with New York goings on - what's GMA?
The television show Good Morning America (CBS, I think - I don't watch it).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, it's ABC. CBS is "This Morning." Their new studios will be in the GM building I think.
Also, a big attraction to me are the new full color LED display bands on the outside. They include blue, which is new technology. I was hhoping they would use this on the R-143's, so they could have the color of any route but from what a Telecite rep. told me, the TA is avoiding the full color
because of costs (the blue and the new green used are more expensive) I wish they would reconsider.
Wishes are nice, but just take a look at the prices for blue LEDs vs red and green.
1000 T1-type blue LEDs cost $1980.40+tx.
500 T1-type red LEDs cost $66.50+tx.
That's not exactly a trivial difference.
CH.
And not only that, but with the blue comes a new green, which uses the same compound as the blue (gallium-nitride)and thus cost more than the older green, made with the same compound as the red. These are what you see on the new display; they are of a shorter wavelength (less yellowish and closer to blue) than the older green, used in the stock market signs, electronic equipment, R-110A signs, and the new station time/day/message signs, and other red/amber/green displays.
So what I suggested to the TA Car& equipment div. was to order signs with the old green instead. Perhaps this would cut the costs almost in half, and not only that, the longer wavelength "lime" green makes better yellows and oranges than the shorter wavelength which makes them pale.
Take a virtual tour on the ABC website:
GMA Debuts on Broadway
With appropriate fanfare, the Good Morning America family is ready to celebrate its incredible new studios in Times Square. Join us for a look at our new home!
--Mike
I feel silly for not figuring all this out until now. Over the past couple of months, I kept hearing Port Wash trains talking to "Section A", on Channel 1. Talking about basically all they would normally have talked about with Harold. I only really noticed this during Rush hour, so I figured that this "Section A" was a separate person sitting at Harold, who only handled traffic up the Port Wash branch -- maybe because it was a lot for one person to do during rush hours.
Yesterday, though, I found out that I was wrong, and that Harold tower is now unmanned, and is being operated remote from within Jamaica station, probably from rm 204. Apparently, their plan is to gradually phase out all the towers, and consolidate all the tower operations in 204.
I dunno what they plan on doing about Lead, with it's drawbridges, or if it's reasonable to operate all the way out at PD or even divide remotely, though.
While I suppose that the actual towerman doesn't need to physically be near the switches and track he's controlling, it is important to have supervision out east, so that, in case of trouble, trains don't remain stranded until supervision arrives.
how do people feel about CTC versus a distributed system? How is it implemented on MNCR?
The "Metros of the World" Metrocard holder box sets are finally out. They were available beginning yesterday afternoon at the Transit Museum store in Grand Central and presumably at the museum and the Times Square location as well. I haven't actually seen it yet although a friend picked up two sets for me yesterday. The clerk at the store said they were only making 1000 box sets so get yours today...
-Dave
Last night, News 1 New York reported on the upcoming trial for several off-duty policemen who may or may not have caused a restaurant worker to commit suicide at the hands of a '2' train at Sterling Street. There was a quick cut to film of the 155th Street station on the 'C', complete with an R-32 pulling out and those distinctive square route guide boxes on the pillars. The uninitiated would be led to believe that Reginald Bannerman was so distraught he ran all the way from Crown Heights to Harlem and then threw himself in front of a train.
I guess News 1's budget isn't big enough to make sure the footage bears some resemblance to the story. This reminds me of some years ago when a retired police officer was murdered on the '1' at Rector Street. One local station sent a reporter to the Rector Street station of the 'N/R' as if the murder had occurred there.
It's not just the movies that makes subway continuity errors.
OK what number was the lead car of this #2 train so I can add that to my blacklist?
Howard -- maybe ol' Ed Koch should tell NY 1 to "get a Hagstrom"!
PS Looking forward to seeing you Saturday.
Doug aka BMTman
Heh. I still think the BEST blunder was NBC showing and Metro-North *New Haven* line train pulling into GCT. The caption read "Columbus Circle" Well, on top of that, the car clearly said "Metro-North Commuter Rail Road" on it *and* had the CT state seal on it! of course, a dateline show on floods once had a rescue of people off the roof of a 2 story house. Along the side were the typical power lines you see in residential areas. The Narration went along the lines of "The helicopter pilot had to manuver carefully to keep the people away from the dangerous 20,000,000 volt power lines" Yes, 20 MILLION volts. AFIK, the highest transmission voltage used in the US today is about 1 million. of course, through the magic of TV, anythings possible ;)
9/14/99
This seems to be a reoccuring thing with the news media in general,not
checking the accuacy of a news story in a mad rush to get it on the air first. How many times have you seen catastrophies such as plane crashes,earthquakes,fires etc. Each channel has a different number of fatalaties relating to lives lost. Well somebody overseeing the disaster area must give press conferences to the news media to keep the public informed. Then how do they come up with varying numbers? Do they up the numbers for ratings purposes or are they just careless,just like those local news items that were mentioned.
Bill Newkirk
They tend to be careless. My older son is taking a semester off from college, filling in as the managing editor (read: jack of all trades) of a small rural newspaper, and he is appalled by the accuracy of what he reads in other papers and sees on the news when he has attended the same press conference or otherwise reported on the same story. In our home area there are certain reporters you can trust and certain ones you can't, and I'm sure the same is true in New York.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, it could have been worse. They could have used pictures of the Toronto subway instead.
Oh, puh-leeeeaze!!
Speaking of which, there was an article in the Denver Post the other day about the likelihood of a Subway Series in New York. It features a full-page photo of a locomotive, possibly from the LIRR, and they were trying to pass it off as a subway train. Well, it had the MTA logo with the big M and it did have a turtleback roof, but come on. Of course, most Denverites wouldn't know the difference, especially if they've never been to New York.
NY1 is a low budget operation. They may have survived the loss of Leslie Devlin, Debby Feyerick, Lynda Laverne-Bacquero, Nancy Loo, Elizabeth Kaledin, Jonathan Dienst and a slew of others, they have never recovered from the loss of their original transit reporter and the only transit reporter in town who truly knew transit: Paul Fleuranges.
Hi, again; now that the 18 min. lockout is soon to become reality, what happens to the pay-per-ride used within two hours? Will it deduct that second entry at same (or other) station? Also, does this removal apply to the Fun Pass, as well?
I'm not sure about the pay per ride or fun pass questions, but I do want to say I'm glad the 18 minute lockout is removed. I was nailed in two circumstances.
1) Stopping off at Jay Street to buy a monthly pass with a credit car d from the new machines. (Ironic, eh?)
2) Hopping an F one stop to drop the kids off at school while avoiding the rain, then trying to get back on to go to work.
Removing the lockout will help with quick errands.
On what MCs is the 18 minute lockout removed?
Will this allow people to fraudulently swipe through someone else?
The value MC has always allowed up to four folks to travel on one card & get four transfers.
The unlimited MC had the "Pass-back" lockout. It S-T-I-L-L applies in the same station or on the same bus, i.e. pop off to get coffee/paper & try to re-board.
So it will benifit folks that make a short trip then want to transfer between subway lines that don't provide free transfer, i.e. have to exit fare control & re-enter OR short trip then transfer to/from bus.
There are a few additional benifits incl.: e.g. we used to see a "hiccup" when a regular customer had no money on his/her MC and a student or other reduced fare customer was behind them. The number is $655.36, a multiple of 2. Sometimes the farebox went crazy and multipled that number by 10 or 100 ... it was an irritant.
Unfortunately they haven't fixed all the errors, e.g. last month 1,200 transfers were issued from one of our express buses (you can't issue an express Transfer) ... a local bus received 327 express tokens. Please pardom me for rambling on ... but I feel better now.
Mr t__:^)
[ The unlimited MC had the "Pass-back" lockout. It S-T-I-L-L applies in the same station or on the same bus, i.e. pop off to get
coffee/paper & try to re-board. ]
Now I'm confused. I thought they upgraded the system so that the lockout only applies to the station that the card was last swiped at, instead of being system-wide. I read here that they were going to do that, and I had assumed that's what this thread was about.
But what you said makes it sound like it's still system-wide. If you board at one subway station with an unlimited MC, then "pop off to get
coffee/paper" a few stops later and re-enter using the same MC ten minutes after your first swipe, you're saying that WOULD NOT work??? I thought that was the whole point of the upgrade...
So far I have no official news about the removal of the 18 minutes. I expect they will issue a bulletin to inform us as to change. When I get official info, I will post.
As of Tuesday AM, I have still seen cards where the person was refused entry=- from another station (or bus) to subway less than 18 minutes. (yes, I did let them enter in accordance with policy to allow entry to those allowing us to check their cards to confirm last location used. Each bus or subway station has a code such as sub 1702, bus 118. If the card is dipped into our computer it will say "Passback"and show the last used data.Of course, If I see they used tyhe card to swipe in another person, I rightly and politely refuse-and most will pay and those that dont will either wait or jump. If they jump, they *are* a fare beater.)
Dear Subway-buff,
You are an excellent Station Agent. A few months ago when I was collecting station depth data for Peggy's station-by-station write-ups, I was caught by the 18-minute lockout (at a different station). I asked the Station Agent to let me in, and he told me I had to wait for the 18 minutes to expire.
The Pass-Back software change became effective at 12:01 AM Sept. 14th
Re. my comment about "pop off/on" ... that relates to the same station or bus route. If you board ... go down the subway line & re-board you shouldn't have a problem. I don't think the same applies on a bus ROUTE because the system don't know "stations"(stops) on a bus route. There is also still a lot of "rules" in effect about authorized vs. not authorized bus transfers, i.e. if you're using a value MC vs. unlimited MC where each boarding/entrance is a fare/ride vs. fare/transfer.
Maybe i'm too close to this issue & am not explaining so the average customer can understand ... if so yell at me a little.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston-please explain in detail what these "rules" for transferring are.
Transfering:
1. Unlimited MetroCard: Each swipe or dip is a fare to the system, so
the "Transfer" is a non-event. The only restrictions are 18 min:
___a. Subway, with in the same station.
___b. Bus on the same "Route"
2. Value MetroCard: Up to four folks can travel on the same card.
Each swipe/dip deducts a fare (1.50 or 3.00) & entitles the cards
holder to a free Transfer, so up to four.
___a. Subway to bus or bus to subway should have no restrictions.
___b. Subway to Express bus, you'll pay a 1.50 "Step Up" fare.
___c. Local bus to Express bus, again a 1.50 Step-up fare.
___d. Express bus to lcl bus or subway, no addl fare, i.e. Transfer
___e. Bus to bus ... ah here's the hard part: You start out going in a direction, lets say North, then you can Transfer East or West, but not South & sometimes North, but not on the same bus route. If you have to WALK to make the Transfer, you probally won't get it. It depends on how far you have to walk. Clear as MUD ?
BTW, This writer fought to allow LI Bus N4 rides get a free Transfer to our Q25/Q65, it's a two or three block walk at from Archer Ave to Jamaica Ave.
___f. SI pay cash at farebox in St. George, ride subway & get a Transfer that's good on SI buses. Pay cash on bus, ask for a Transfer & the subway to St. George is free.
___g. Cash fare payment on bus, off hours on Rudy's "privates" it's only 1.00. Other times it's 1.50. Ask the driver for a Transfer that's good to another bus (as described above).
___h. Sr/Disabl pay cash in subway & get a piece of paper that is you free Transfer to bus.
___i. Block ... the subway dies, get a pink piece of paper good for a Transfer to a bus, BUT not good if you walk to another subway line.
P.S. Once on the bus you can keep asking for a Transfer out of the farebox most drivers will issue you one.
====================================================================
MetroCard flavors:
1. Unlimited
__a. 24 hour "Fun Pass", go until 3 AM ... all other Cynderella turns into a punkin at 12 midnight !
__b. Weekly local, NG on Express bus, i.e worth NOTHING their.
__c. Monthly local (MC only or Mail & Ride, i.e. MN or LIRR too)
__d. Monthly express, good on all buses & subways
__e. Senior/Disable also called Mail & Ride but not related to
MN or LIRR.
2. Value
__a. You can buy/put less then $15 on one, but get 10 % at that level
__b. $15, incl. one free ride, $20 1 1/2 rides, $30 2 free rides, etc.
__c. NM & LIRR Mail & Ride, $30 or 60, but use it up by end of month.
__d. Sr/Disabl value on their photo MC.
Well I hope this helps ... may have forgot one or two flavors, but I hope not. Mr t__:^)
My favorite Station Agent send me a private e-mail to say that I was all wet regarging Blocks being NG on another subway line.
For 11 years I used the 1/9 daily and had several experiences with a Block issued at 116th Street. Since I wanted to get to 34th a bus wasn't always the best way to get their, e.g. the M104 only goes to 42nd. Several times I either walked to 96th to get the 2/3 or to Central Park West to get the IND.
Unless I went with a group & made a big stink the Station Agent politely explained that Blocks are only good for a continued ride on a bus.
Apparently, by POLICY, they are good on another subway that happens to be running. You can also walk the whole way home & get a free ride the next day.
(What's a BLOCK, it's that long pink thing you get when the subway doesn't seem to be comming & you're friendly agent asks you to please leave the station)
Mr t__:^)
The station agent who refused the block ticket is all wet! The rules for block tickets are:
They are issued for an UNPLANNED disruption in subway service (ie- water condition, smoke condition, sick customer, mechanical problem, police action, power loss, etc.) They are good for the day of issue and two following days. If you get a ticket on the 1st it is good on ANY subway station, ANY NYCT or private local bus.
Her's an example: There is a blocktoday (Monday) and you are issued a ticket at let's say 96 and Broadway. You are running late and decide to take a cab to Penn Station so you can get back to Long Island. You may use this at Penn Station tomorrow or the day after tomorrow.
Now let's say you get sick waiting for the cab and miss work till Friday- you are out of luck since the ticket is good for Monday (day of the block), Tuesday (the day after) and Wednesday (The second dfay after.)
If there is a PLANNED service disruption such as no trains between 168 and Dyckman on the 1 and they tell you to take a free shuttle bus you are given a GENERAL ORDER (G.O.) TRANSFER which looks similar to old time paper bus transfers--THOSE TICKETS are ONLY GOOD at specific locations. In this example you'd ashow the ticket to the bus driver and then give the ticket to the Station Agent at the other end (Dyckman Street)- usally there will be a stationa gent stationed at an open gate.
Now here's the possible confusion: The color of G.O. transfers change four times a year and pink is one of the colors used. It is POSSIBLE that the Station Agent mistook the block ticket for a G.O. Transfer.
A Block ticket has the twelve months and days 1 to 31 on the face and the month and date issued are punched with a special paper punch. and is laid out in a wide(sideways) format (landscape vs portrait to use the computer term).
A G.O. ticket is laid out in long form (portrait) and shows time of day and is NEVER punched- they show an expiration date such as June 30, 1999. I trust this answers your questions.
RULE: if there is a dispute, pay the fare and take down the booth number (or bus number), employee badge number and conmtact NYCT using the phone number listed at the booth.
THIS POST IS BASED ON OFFICIAL INSTRUCTIONS
Thanks to my favorite Station Agent for this additional detail. We've never seen one of these "GO Transfers" at this depot, guess the N shut downs are all unplanned, i.e. that's where the Blocks we get usually come from. Would like to have one, just so I know what they look like.
P.S. Another nice thing about this site is how most of the time when I make a bo bo someone will correct me in a nice way. This was one of those time !
Mr t__:^)
Actually the block tickets should ***not*** be issued on the N Line. Some station agents issue block tickets to avoid riot-like conditions. Official policy calls for no tickets to be issued if there is ONE WAY service. In practice some (NOT ME!) station agents issue block tickets because the customers insist, or the supervisor tells them to issue the tickets( and I have had the second example happen to me).
now let's say that the N was out BOTH ways from 86th Street to Kings Highway due to track work-- We'd run shuttle bus service and issue G.O. Tickets. You have not seen G.O. Tickets since a planned disruption would be handled by NYCT bus and not our favorite private bus company. Now let's say a tree fell across the tracks-- we can not plan for a natural disaster and block tickets would be issued. Supposing I then took a cab to work and got a ride home at the end of the day back to Queens (I dont live in Queens!). The next day, I casn use the BLOCK ticket on your bus line, but not a G.O. Ticket which MUST be used at a designated location ONLY.
[ I'm not sure about the pay per ride or fun pass questions, but I do
want to say I'm glad the 18 minute lockout is removed. I was nailed in
two circumstances. ]
I wanted to use it to sneak into the 34st/7av IRT station, while going to Penn, to avoid a half-block of rain. Coming from Herald Square IND/BMT, if you go into manhattan (formerly A&S) plaza, exit on 32 st, and then duck into the IRT entrance near 7th, you can avoid all but a half-block of rain.
Too bad the complete passageway is long gone.. Anyone remember when that was closed? 80's?
Wow - Someone else that used this.
Perhaps it is the company that I keep, but absolutely NOBODY believes me that this passage even existed.
I don't remember dates, but it was closed a bit before the Penn renovation began. I seem to remember one of the reasons being "security"
[ renovation began. I seem to remember one of the reasons being
"security" ]
I see. Apparently, cold, wet commuters are less of a security problem than warm dry ones..
Too many skells, if I correctly remember another thread on this a few months ago.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[Perhaps it is the company that I keep, but absolutely NOBODY believes me that this passage (under 33rd Street) even existed.
I don't remember dates, but it was closed a bit before the Penn renovation began. I seem to remember one of the reasons being "security"]
You can see a little bit of the passageway from the corridor that runs down the west side of the 34th Street IND/BMT/PATH station. Toward the PATH end of the corridor, past a boarded-up storefront reading "Shops at Herald Center" or something to that effect, you'll see black solid wooden doors held shut by a chain and padlock. If you peek around the edges of the doors, or through the chain hole, you'll be able to see some steps which mark the beginning of the passageway.
Crime fears may not have been the main reason behind the passageway's closing. Gimbel's department store paid for some or all of the passageway's upkeep. When the store failed, the Transit Authority was unwilling to shoulder all the costs itself.
"I don't remember dates, but it was closed a bit before the Penn renovation began."
Penn was renovated? then why is it still there?
OK, I should have put a smiley there :-)
9/14/99
Yes Larry, I remember that long arcade. The lighting was not the best and although I wasn't a victim it was a perfect place for crime to be committed. The arcade is still there,it was never filled in with dirt,but sealed up nontheless. Judging by the light fixtures and tiles,it wasn't a NYCTA or PATH arcade. Possibly owned by one of the stores upstairs as a convience for passengers.
Bill Newkirk
The 18 minute phaseout must be in progress. Just this am I had to allow a customer entry --the card was used within 18 minutes--and not my station, not even the subway but bus!
When I see a bulletin I'll post info.
How do the 18 min. lockout changes apply to the REDUCED FARE Metrocards/
Pullman Standard PCC Car 3265 made its ceremonial debut today, and carried one outbound load of revenue passengers to Mattapan. The car gleams in its new (old) traction orange and cream with silver roof, red stripe and black trim. The truck and suspension work has produced a smoother riding car as compared to its unrebuilt sisters. A recurring problem - rusted out steps - has been attacked through the use of stainless steel in the step areas.
There are still some problems to be worked out in the propulsion system, though nothing major. The car will do a few more days of shakedown runs before entering the regular service pool.
I rode from Ashmont to Mattapan on the ceremonial trip and then rode a return trip to Ashmont when the car took some dignitaries who rode the subway back. With only myself and three T employees aboard at Ashmont, they decided to allow regular passengers to ride back to Mattapan. Several commented on the brighter, different looking car and one made a remark on how much better the orange cars looked. She was estatic when I told her that all of the cars would eventually be orange!
Overall a good day for the (T) [for a change], for Supervisor Danny Cohen and for Seashore which supported the program from a technical and historical perspective. Ten more cars will follow in the program which will restore all the cars assigned to Mattapan to better than new condition.
As with San Francisco's 'F' Line, Boston's Mattapan Line will now have a historic flavor, which should help keep the line a unique asset to Dorchester and Milton.
[ Overall a good day for the (T) [for a change], for Supervisor Danny
Cohen and for Seashore which supported the program from a technical
and historical perspective. Ten more cars will follow in the program
which will restore all the cars assigned to Mattapan to better than
new condition. ]
Gerry, please congratulate Danny for me -- he had been telling me all about his efforts there when we were up at Seashore a few weeks ago, and it's great to see the product being completed.
Gerry, it was good to hear that the Boston PCC's would be around for a good number of years more. I rode them only once last year, and I remember something very old fashioned that I liked. I was sitting in a car at the end of the line waiting to go back, and another car came in and was throttling on and off coming a stop. The lights in my car dimmed very noticeably each time, and there was just something very cozy about that. So I hope that they don't build new power stations to keep the voltage up, because I would go back right now and just enjoy that. Again, thanks for everyone's good work in keeping a classic car running in a classic town. Paul
The nearest substation to Mattapan is at Ashmont and that won't change since despite the dimming there is plenty of power for the cars.
Bravo! A PCC Trolley in the prime of her life, thanks to the restorers' loving hands. By the way, how old is she [I'd never ask such a grand dame her age to her face :o)]
Wayne
Kudo's to the restored PCC! Like Joel Spivak of the "PTC" in Philly said "It was the best trolley car around for it's weight and acceleration". I say , equip them with A/C and bring them back.
Pittsburgh finally canned the 47D Drake route and along with it the last of their PCC's. Mike Cooke, a motorman with PAT likes them over the Seimens-Duwag's because they are faster! Even when they reopen the 47s Overbrook route, it will be rebuilt to handle the new heavier cars, and never see the PCC's again.
Chuck Greene
The PCC's and the GG1's exquisite US products from the thirties better than most supposed improved models.
I remember thumbing through a book from the 70's on RR engineering. It showed a photo of a GG-1 and called it "Old and antiquated", then showed a "New and modern" E60. Interesting things:
1) The GG-1 had a lighter axle loading than the E60, and actually lighter than most diesels, despite it's weight, because of all the axles.
2) The GG-1 tracked *much* better than the E60!!
3) It was faster too.
4) It sure looked nicer.
It was around longer - the E60's are going to be gone soon.
The PPC Vs the LRV? Let's not go there, the PCC wins hands down...
The MP-54 Vs the M-1? This might actually be a case where progress was made in the 60 - 90 (yes, the first ones were built in 1909) years seperating them, for all the faults of the M-1:
1) It still is faster, and had a higher top speed.
2) It is stainless, and won't rust away as easily.
3) Has dynamic, and more resistance points.
4) Has multiple acceleration rates.
5) Is likely quieter (I've heard the 54s described as "big Low Vs")
6) It's lighter.
7) If you've ever heard stories about the MP-54's bathrooms, you'll be greatful for the M-1s....
But, it has sealed windows, poor A/C, questionable reliability(I've heard MDBFs as low as 20k), lousey floors, and it's a complicated sucker too.
If you want a clear winner, the NJ Arrows have them both beat...
As far as compairing subway cars, I'll let everyone argue it out :) other than to say I'll vote R-32 as all time best...
Perhaps we should take a poll on which class of New York subway car ranks as the best ever. Design and reliability should be taken into consideration. Maybe we should have separate categories for prewar vs postwar equipment.
I'll cast my vote here:
Prewar: BMT standard
Postwar: R-32
The existing PCC cars on the Mattapan Line were approximately built:
3087 March of 1945
3230, 3232, 3234,3238 November-December of 1945
3254, 3260, 3262, 3263, 3265, 3269 May-June of 1946
That makes 3087 54 years old. By comparison the 1923 Blue Line cars were retired in 1980 at the age of 57. They hold the all time record for longevity on the system - but not for long!
The rubber tired record for the MBTA is held by a group of 1967 GMC fishbowls retired in 1996 aged 29. Closest active buses are the 1976 Flyer Trackless which are now 23. The Pullmans they replaced lasted 25 years.
Gerry
I remember just a few years ago in Saratoga, NY during the racing season Upstate Transit still had a couple of GMC (Ralph Kramden type buses) running in downtown Saratoga!! That had to be a record!!
For all of the flack they took due to the National Cities Lines bustitutions and other political brouhahas, GMC built a good product, which with proper care and maintenance could survive for years beyond the normal 15. In fact, the Eastern Mass, when sold to the MBTA was operating over a hundred 1940 era, second hand TDH 4005, TDM 4005, and equivalent 4006 models which were not junk. They were phased out as quickly as possible, since the MBTA's oldest busses at the time were 1950 models, but some did last until 1972. Only 41 fishbowls and a group of 4509's and 4512's survived past that date from the EMass fleet.
This is the best news I have heard in a long time. My home line back in action! I wish I could get there to see this. Could someone send me a picture. This line has been running since 1929 when the BER took it over from the New Haven. I remember the line of orange Fruit Growers Express box cars by Butler Street when Baker's Chocolate was still operating. Does anyone else remember the Mattapan=Egelston cars running up Blue Hill Avenue? At least they did not put pantographs on them.
The Mattapan Ashmont Line has never been out of action for any length of time. Any bus substitution is circuitious, and thus much slower than the cars. Of all the stops, only Ashmont, Milton, Central Av. and Mattapan are on main streets, and those connect poorly. The others are neighborhood stops serving residents much more directly. The people from around those stops want the direct service, while those riding through from Mattapan make a faster trip even though the River St. bus is more direct. Evening rush headway is five minutes with only six cars needed. Most arrive at Mattapan well loaded.
Alternate service with LRVs or Type 7/8 cars would require rebuilding several bridges to handle the weight, and providing a 'real' maintenance facility to service the cars.
Extending the Rapid Transit to Mattapan would eliminate the neighborhood stops, putting buses on the neighborhood streets and also require the bridge work. Therefore the money being put into the cars is a good investment, and well received by the riders.
Is there something wrong with this website or something? Everytime I go to the station by station descriptions on the subway and other systems the pictures load so slowly. They don't load properly either.
I do not have this problem on any other websites.
I am using a 28.8 modem so why is it so slow?
Anybody else having this problem?
My trick, click once, stop,click twice,stop, click three times et volia!
Happens on my ISP all the time. Maybe its a slow network. During busy hours my ISP turns into the old AOL.
Well, there are A LOT of pictures in some of the line-by-line descriptions. Loading this much with a 28.8 or 14.4 (worse yet) modem might take a couple of minutes. I've seen the Canarsie Line and 8th Avenue pages (both with many photos attached) take as long as five minutes to as little as under one minite to load. This points to one other factor, totally out of your control - TRAFFIC on the ISP's network. What are the symptoms of the improper displaying you are reporting?
Wayne
Pictures are loading incompletely. Usually while it may take a minute or two for the pages to load, it's been taking much longer. And after they do load and I click on a picture to save it, forget about it.
After 10 minutes of waiting I'll get half of a picture, or it'll load incomplete.
This has started very recently (as of last night) and it is not correcting itself today.
And now it seems I'm having problems on other sites too. It could be traffic, but why so much? And just a minute ago I tried to access the Singapore Masss Transit page of the site and I got "transfer interrupted" on the bottom of the page.
It is frustrating as hell and I keep having to remember where the images are. I saved the links now so I'll just have to be patient and wait for whatever is wrong to correct itself.
If you get "transfer interrupted", you can load a fresh copy of the page by holding down the SHIFT key then clicking on "reload". I am using Netscape Navigator as an example, your browser software may be different.
Wayne
There haven't been any configuration changes to the web site recently (you reported in your followup that the problems started happening yesterday). It is either high volume on my end (likely) and/or high volume at your ISP (possibly likely), and/or high volume on the network between me and you (likely).
The server www.nycsubway.org runs on is an ancient piece of hardware. It simply cannot handle the load during some times of the day. My thoughts are to try during late nights (11pm - 8 am) and during day time off peak (10-11am, 2-4 pm).
Sound like the subway here off peak, late nights.........
3TM
110St-CPN. Transfer available to the M3, M4, M18 on the upper level. The next station will be 116St. Stand Clear of the closing doors........
I was on last night till 2am trying. My guess is it might be my ISP, which boasts having state of the art fiber obtic cables. I never get a busy signal, but sometimes for no reason my connection is slow for a few days.
Also,
One other thing that I think needs to be pointed out from time to time is that when you take a look at this site you'll notice the complete absense of advertising, and no "premium" areas. You'll also notice there is a huge amount of stuff here. www.nycsubway.org isn't a site that could easily be hosted at some free or inexpensive ISP. To run this site on professional server equipment would cost over $1,000 a month for the disk space and network utilization.
-Dave
Is that like a 'Dear Mom, Having fun at camp, send food!' Letter?
-Hank :)
> Is that like a 'Dear Mom, Having fun at camp, send food!' Letter?
You know me better than that! :)
I was on last night till 2am trying. My guess is it might be my ISP, which boasts having state of the art fiber obtic cables. I never get a busy signal, but sometimes for no reason my connection is slow for a few days.
I got an error the first time posting this because it got stuck again, so I'm trying again. Usually the www.nycsubway.org site works perfectly fine, and my connection is now just as slow with other web sites today.
It looks like my connection, probably a high traffic thing. Perhaps that (yet another) pesky Hurricane is to blame.
Quick internetworking primer...
You don't mention what your email address is but for instance between www.nycsubway.org and an AOL user, there are at least 14 network interconnections of various capacity and usage. Not counting the telecommunications companies that provide the data lines, there is hardware belonging to at least four companies involved, including "us" and AOL. Any number of things have to go right for the Internet to work and perhaps you're just experiencing some temporary bad luck. Connecting to a web site from your PC is not just a matter of "is my connection fast" and "is their connection fast".
Well it might have something to do with additional traffic thanks to Hurricane Floyd. It seems there's a collolation between my connection slowing down and major news stories.
I guess there's just a bottleneck on the internet superhighway, I just wish they'd can those GT's so we can all move faster!
[You don't mention what your email address is but for instance between www.nycsubway.org and an AOL user, there are at least 14 network interconnections of various capacity and usage. Not counting the telecommunications companies that provide the data lines, there is hardware belonging to at least four companies involved, including "us" and AOL]
That answers a question that's puzzled me for a while. When I access SubTalk from my AOL account, it's always significantly slower than it is from Prodigy Internet.
If you're running Windows and a program called "Windows Critical Update Notification" may be running. If there's a Task Scheduler on the tray you should check. If not,make sure you have at least 1/2 of your hard drive clean
A 28.8 modem? THERE lies the problem.
The site's features all load very fast with a 56K.
Or even faster with a cable modem :o)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You should see it at T3!!!
But then I'm on vacation so it is 56k R68 type mode of connect today...(sorry Steve)
56K R-68? Sounds like an oxymoron.
Well the 28.8 usually works fine, but I guess there's high traffic. I'm trying again to get those pictures tonight.
Just tried and got stuck yet again. If I could ask anybody to do a big favor, I've got some pictures I wanted to download could somebody go to them (I saved the URL's) and save them and then sent it to me via email? My email works fine but the web is crawling right now like trains over the Manhattan bridge.
I've got no patience and I can't spend all night online. Pretty pathetic for wanting to download some relatively small image files.
Perhaps it's time to give spec.net (my ISP) the pink slip!
You haven't indicated your E-mail address! Go into your settings and give it an e-mail address. When you see your posting name underlined/highlighted in a color, your e-mail address is active.
Wayne
Yes, I got it in the settings now.
If anybody can, it would be greatly appreciated if somebody could send the following images to me via email-
I know it's a long list, I haven't been able to download one since last night. My web provider is jammed and cannot provide decent WWW service for some reason.
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/19th02.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/fremt01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/ashby01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/arthur02.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/merrit03.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/merrit02.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/fruitv02.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/brkly02.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/brkly04.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/brkly05.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/nberk01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/emb03.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/emb02.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/powell01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/powell03.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/montgm01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/civicc03.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/24th04.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/glenpk03.jpg
MUNI
http://www.nycsubway.org/sf/metro/m-mont01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/sf/metro/m-cc01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/sf/metro/castro01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/sf/metro/fhill01.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/sf/metro/fhill04.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/sf/metro/2king02.jpg
Here's a hint, if you see a URL with "perl/caption.pl" in it, like
http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/caption.pl?/sf/bart/stations/glenpk03.jpg
The "real" image is at
http://www.nycsubway.org/sf/bart/stations/glenpk03.jpg
i.e. minus the "/perl/caption.pl?" part
Actually, it'll probably take a while to download to your email as well. And let's hope that if someone does this, you don't get multiple help.
-Hank
Tell me if this is weird...
R68 from Concourse Yard on B Line...with D bullets between the cars.
R68A on B Line again with D bullets in between the cars.
I know about the deal w/ the R40 on the weekends.
In today's Daily news there was an article on the Shuttle. It says that it will open early (next month), and it showed pictures inside the stain glass overpass.
It also says something about a "new depot" at Park Pl. What's this? A new layup area?
My impression is The News is using the term to "depot" for Park Place to simply mean "railroad station," not the way we would understand it.
You're probably right, Paul.
I haven't seen that article, but certainly I my contact at Livingston Plaza was very accurate about the time Franklin will resume service.
Doug aka BMTman
There's a program on the Transfer Station section called "Subway Interlocking Simulator (NXSYS)" Just wondering if any one was able to make any other layouts other than the ones supplied. I've been trying for over a year and this weekend I've only been able to make the timers time for 30 seconds.
On Oct 16 we will be running a trip using Diesel #9 and R-16 6398. This will be 6398's first trip carrying passengers since 1986! Although the car isn't completely done yet, we feel she is at least done enough to show off for this special occasion. The NRHS is chartering the event.
We will be operating on the museum's main line on the Hudson river shore, AND as a special treat, up the hill and into town! That track hasn't seen passenger service in decades.
As an added bonus, 6398 will have full 600 volt power. A high voltage bus will be run from one of #9's main generators. This is a rare and unique sight. I wouldn't miss it.
The other day I took a ride up to the Western Railway Museum, to
see if they had the El cars listed on the museum roster on display,
and to find out how they got so far from home. Anyway I was able to
see one of them there, its not in the best location for taking pictures
(its very dark and packed in pretty close to other rolling stock,
but I took some pictures anyway. If your interested you can find them
at http://www.palter.org/~subway
Bill
For not being in the best location the pics are excellent! Thanks for sharing.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks Bill,
I had seen pictures of the pantograph equiped El car and others in a recent book about transit during WWII. I had enquired here on subtalk about those cars.
Bill,
Thanks for sharing the pics. It's nice to see that although it's not currently restored, it does seem to be indoors, and protected from the elements, and in a reasonably stable environment.
The control on that looks very much like a Hi-V controller, but the angle makes it a little hard to tell.
Also, I liked the photos you have of #5466. I haven't seen too many pictures of it in service -- I've seem more pics of her at Branford than on the NYC rails.
Its in the center of their car barn, I assume that the space in
front of it is where they store the cars they were running that day
(since that was the only open space in the barn). Alot of their other
equipment is stored outside, it was really sad to see that Shay rusting away.
I am not sure what their restoration plans for it are, they said there
are a few things they want to restore on the list ahead of it, also
they seem to be expanding their tracks at a fast pace (they have alot of ROW, and
most of it is not electrified yet) so that must
be taking a good deal of their funding..
I could not really get a good look at the controller, I had to
hold the camera over my head to get those pictures, next time I'll
bring something to stand on...
Its strange that out of all the Low-Vs running on 3rd, that my Dad
would manage to get pictures of one that ended up in a museum :-)
Bill
Suggest those interested in many interesting items log on to eBay Search, and do a "Seller Search" for "JoePCC699@AOL.com". Very varied and many times extremely rare items, primarily from North America and Western Europe, are being offered. Shipments can be made internationally.
Back in '96, after a not-so-great day in Sheepshead Bay, I decided to take a 'D' to Prospect Park for the Franklin Shuttle.
Then, I took it to its terminus and transferred to an A at Franklin Avenue.
My belief for saving the Franklin Shuttle is that it provides a vital link between neighborhoods and a potential time saver.
If I was forced to take the D to Manhattan and transfer somewhere else to get back to Ridgewood, it would have taken much, much longer to get back, than with the Franklin Shuttle.
Not long ago (one month ago or so), I took the Franklin Shuttle (bus) to Prospect Park en route Coney Island via the D...again a time saver, because it would have been total murder to go from Ridgewood some other way, even if it did involve more transfers.
I wonder if there are any other people that think of this way.
I am just glad that the 121-year-old line is not killed off.
Nick C.
You're from Ridgewood too? It's like worlds away from that part of Brooklyn. Until the shuttle reopens, when I go to Flatbush (where I grew up), I take the L to the 3 to the B41 LTD, or to the D, and I've also tried the B6 to the L, but that's slow.
I am originally from Ridgewood, but I currently live in Boston Mass. (and am bummed about missing the Mattapan's re-vitalized PCC's)
Nick C
P.S. I still visit NYC to visit my relatives.
Are the PCC's gone from Mattapan? I rode them several years ago, but don't have any normal reason to ride down to ashmont...
Dave B
Not only are they still there, the MBTA is in the midst of a multi-million dollar program to rebuild them, assuring they will ply the "high speed line" into the next millennium (whenever that is...). The first car was just rolled out, and is now in service. They are painted in Boston Elevated orange and creme colors.
Yes, I agree that the although the Franklin Shuttle is not a long route, it does serve an important connecting factor between BMT Brighton and IND Rockaway riders (and when it reopens it will include transfering to/from IRT Flatbush/New Lots trains).
Another good reason to save the line -- from a railfan perspective -- is the Franklin's historical significance. It is one of the oldest remaining ROW from the days of BRT ownership and of course the site of the notorious Malbone Street Wreck (which directly led to railroad safety features like the deadman's switch and the signal trip-arm).
You can bet I will be there at the opening day come hell or highwater (w/camera in hand).
Doug aka BMTman
[ the notorious Malbone Street Wreck (which directly led to railroad
safety features like the deadman's switch and the signal trip-arm). ]
Uh, I think those things had been invented way before Malbone St. Both were part of the original IRT system, from 1904. Regardless, those things wouldn't have stopped Malbone St. What _would_ have stopped it, though, would be GT signals. I am not sure when those were developed or installed on the system, but I would venture to guess that Malbone St was a good reason to put them on the system...
While the trip-cock mechanism was in use before this wreck, neither the tracks or cars in question were equipped to use them. I think after this wreck the entire system was retrofitted with this technology.
Thanks Chris R, that's what I meant -- the trip-cock was introduced THROUGHOUT the entire system (at least BRT/BMT) after the Malbone Wreck.
Doug aka BMTman
But what did the Malbone Street wreck have to do with introducing a deadman control? It wouldn't have prevented that accident, would it?
Also, another question: How is the deadman control operated in the current NYC subway cars? On the trains I work on, I'm really happy that the deadman control is in a pedal....
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
It wouldn't have helped. The deadman feature on the NYC Subways is that if the throttle was let go without brakes applied, the train would stop. The pressure required on the throttle can only be from a living person. Which means that if the motorman dies the train would stop.
Ahhhh, but that was overridden in Pelham 1-2-3!!!
Ditto for "Money Train"!
Yeah, hang your bag off the controller handle. Easy, I see it done often. I do it at TMNY when I'm working on the brakes. Look ma, no hands. ATO the old fashioned way.
I'm still trying to figure out that contraption which Martin Balsam rigged up in the original Pelham. It didn't agree at all with the description in the novel, which was a heavy iron mold which fit over the controller handle itself. The remake, as bad as it was, DOES portray the description in the novel much more accurately. In the novel, Longman has to break out the front window in order to join two of the three lengths of pipe together so he can rotate the controller from the outside of the car. The actor who plays Longman in the remake does just that.
Didn't he just put a heavy briefcase on it?
I'll have to dig out my tape of the remake and check that scene out. I do remember the window being busted out.
Neither film version delved into the part in the novel in which the express track was boobytrapped, but that's understandable.
No, I was talking about the original.
Well, Balsam did have a briefcase full of pipes and stuff, but he rigged it all up outside the car, down by the front truck. It looked as if it bled the brakes, but I don't see how it could have served to apply power. If he did set the briefcase down on the controller in the cab, it's not depicted.
Tim, I wasn't sure about the Deadman's Control being instituted DUE to the Franklin Shuttle Malbone Street wreck. I assumed that it was since more safety concerns occurred after the wreck, such as the system-wide use of trip-arm features and much more rugged car equipment.
It is true however, that a deadman's control would not have prevented the disaster.
Doug aka BMTman
OK, thanks for the clarification. (Anybody know for sure whether the deadman control was introduced at that time?)
And I'm still wondering how the motorman (T/O, whatever ;-) ) operates the deadman control on subway trains today.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
Except for the R-44s and R-46s, the controller handle on today's New York Subway cars juts up at an approximate 45-degree angle when released. The T/O must have his or her hand pressing down on this handle at all times; if he or she should relax their grip, the handle will pop up and the train will be make an emergency stop.
It is true however, that a deadman's control would not have prevented the disaster.
I'm not sure if it would or wouldn't have.
An issue in the wreck was whether the excessive speed was caused in part by M/M Luciano's inexperience with operating the relatively complicated (more so than those on say, BMT Standards) lap brakes on the BU equipment.
Some accounts had it that he had the train in reasonable control but was surprised by the new curve at Malbone Street. However, other information suggested this wasn't so. For example, some passengers were supposed to have requested a stop at Consumers Park for fear of the way the train was being handled. Did Luciano ignore these requests or was he preoccupied with trying to control the train?
If there had been a dead-man's Luciano might have had the presence of mind to take advantage of it when he realized the danger.
This is yet one more issue I hope Brian Cudahy will clear up in his new book.
Let's clear up some misunderstandings....
1) The cars (BUs) involved in the Malbone St wreck had a deadman feature.
They used a flop-over controller which cuts off power and applies
the brakes in emergency when you let go of the handle. therefore
2) The presence or absence of a deadman had nothing to do with it.
3) The brakes on the BUs are conceptually similar to the
at the time new 67' steels. They are both manually lapping
train air (reduction) systems. The BUs did not have an electric
brake feature and therefore the brakes were somewhat slower
to respond.
4) The in-a-nutshell cause of the accident was the motorman's lack
of familiarity with the Physical Characteristics of the line over
which he was operating.
Don't forget his lack of training or experience.
Is it true that he was a towerman?
In recent years, I've read repeatedly that he was "inexperienced" and so on. Well, as I understand the story, it isn't as if he accepted this assignment with alacrity and had portrayed himself as more experienced than he was. AIUI, his superiors basically ordered him to be a motorman for the day.
Also, AIUI, things were relatively OK for most of the day because he was operating trains over a line he was familiar with.
Have I misunderstood any of the above? My final impression has always been that BRT management was fully responsible for the accident. They had no business entrusting the lives of their passengers to a man who essentially was untrained as a motorman (and never said otherwise).
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
I believe Luciano was a motor switchman. IOW, he was qualified to shunt equipment around the yard, or at times in non-revenue service, but wasn't qualified as a road motorman.
There is a lot of blame to go around in the accident. I haven't seen Cudahy's book yet, but I believe his intent is to show how a number of individual circumstances, each non-fatal in itself, came together with the accident as the result.
Off the top of my head, here are a bunch of Malbone Street "IFs."
IF the Company hadn't put Luciano in road service.
IF he hadn't been sent out for a second tour after an uneventful stint on the Culver Line.
IF he hadn't felt weak because he was recovering from the flu (the variety that killed millions that year).
IF he hadn't negligently failed to post proper markers.
IF the Malbone Street curve hadn't opened just days earlier.
IF the train consist hadn't been improperly made up.
Company officials were also tried. They were acquitted.
Your last point is a new one for me. What was improper about the train consist, and how did that contribute to the accident?
I know the BRT officials were tried and acquitted. Let's just say that that period's view of legal and social responsibility for the officers of a company is not the same one we have today.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
Your last point is a new one for me. What was improper about the train consist, and how did that contribute to the accident?
A five car train like the one in the accident was supposed to be made up motor-trailer-motor-trailer-motor. The fatal train was made up with the trailers together: motor-trailer-trailer-motor-motor.
Loaded trailers were much more top heavy than motor cars, contributing to the instability that promoted the derailment which was a critical factor in the accident.
Technical study of the accident strongly suggested that, if those trailers were not together, the entire train would have held the rails, as the first car did, with the motor cars as "anchors".
I know the BRT officials were tried and acquitted. Let's just say that that period's view of legal and social responsibility for the officers of a company is not the same one we have today.
Many at the time would have said it was the BRT's responsibility to keep the railroad running and get those Friday night commuters home. Absent the accident, many people would have complained long and hard if the BRT had followed modern practice and shut the system down.
Even looking at 1918 through 1999-colored glasses: How about the Union Square Accident? This was an amazing failure of the system. The conductor let his drunk co-worker operate recklessly for miles. The supervisor let him get by. The management right up to the top countenanced such lax supervision of its staff that the people who let the Union Square M/M go on the road and kept him there were not fearful of the consequences to their careers of letting such a person operate a train.
And what about the equipment? The R62s folded like swiss cheese. The Malbone Street wreck accelerated the action to get wooden cars out of the subway, but noone said squat about the structural compromises for weight reduction that made those R62s a death trap.
And, save the motorman, noone was tried for Union Square.
Many at the time would have said it was the BRT's responsibility to keep the railroad running and get those Friday night commuters home.
I understand your point, but I imagine that those people would have agreed that it was the BRT's responsibility to get them home *alive*. Too many times, over and over again, railroads have had to learn the lesson that safety always has to come first.
Absent the accident, many people would have complained long and hard if the BRT had followed modern practice and shut the system down.
Undoubtedly. And I know, hindsight is always 20/20. I still think that, while putting Luciano to work as a motorman on the Culver line might have been a reasonable risk to take, sending him out on the Brighton line was definitely not.
Even looking at 1918 through 1999-colored glasses: How about the Union Square Accident? This was an amazing failure of the system. The conductor let his drunk co-worker operate recklessly for miles. The supervisor let him get by. The management right up to the top countenanced such lax supervision of its staff that the people who let the Union Square M/M go on the road and kept him there were not fearful of the consequences to their careers of letting such a person
operate a train.
And what about the equipment? The R62s folded like swiss cheese. The Malbone Street wreck accelerated the action to get wooden cars out of the subway, but no one said squat about the structural compromises for weight reduction that made those R62s a death trap.
And, save the motorman, no one was tried for Union Square.
You won't get much argument from me here (except about the conductor; AIUI -- from the revised edition of "Uptown, Downtown," which is called "The Subway" -- the conductor didn't take action because he was uncertain of his authority to do so).
In August of 1996, a subway train here in Stockholm struck and killed two track workers in the late afternoon. They were working on the track under traffic, and reduced-speed orders had been issued for all trains on that stretch of track. The driver of the train that hit them apparently was going faster than the permitted speed.
Both the Railway Inspectorate and the Swedish equivalent of OSHA severely criticized the arrangements for the safety of the workers as inadequate, but only the driver was tried -- and convicted -- for that accident.
In both cases (Union Square and Blåsut), I think this was wrong.
PS Thanks for the additional info about the train consist in the Malbone Street wreck.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
And, save the motorman, no one was tried for Union Square.
You won't get much argument from me here (except about the conductor; AIUI -- from the revised edition of "Uptown, Downtown," which is called "The Subway" -- the conductor didn't take action because he was uncertain of his authority to do so).
Correct if I misunderstood your response: you're saying you would'nt have punished the conductor?
No way can I give him a pass. Once the ride began, he was the only system employee who has in any position to stop the motorman. You've never heard the American cliche "Friends Don't Let Friends Drive Drunk"? Sorry, fate put him in the hot seat, and it was no time for "not my job, boss."
And as to "uncertain of his authority to do so" you don't think he was fearful of ratting on a fellow worker and facing other members who would've said, "the motorman had personal problems, he's lost his job, and it's your fault"?
This also was a failure of management, for not holding accountable all the people in the "chain of safety" of the system.
[re blameworthiness of Union Square conductor]
[No way can I give him a pass. Once the ride began, he was the only system employee who has in any position to stop the motorman. You've never heard the American cliche "Friends Don't Let Friends Drive Drunk"? Sorry, fate put him in the hot seat, and it was no time for "not my job, boss."
And as to "uncertain of his authority to do so" you don't think he was fearful of ratting on a fellow worker and facing other members who would've said, "the motorman had personal problems, he's lost his job, and it's your fault"?]
I just can't be so quick to condemn the conductor. You can't compare the situation to taking away a tipsy friends's car keys. If we're to accept his testimony before the NTSB, the conductor honestly did not know whether he had the authority to stop the train, or whether doing so would be considered insubordination. He may have been worried about a lot more than being scorned by fellow workers - most likely, he was concerned about being fired himself. Figure that the job was probably the best one he'd ever had, and don't forget that well-paying jobs were anything but plentiful in August 1991. Yes, there *should have been* clearer standards as to what a conductor could or could not do when dealing with a dangerous situation of that sort, but there weren't. Blame management, not the conductor.
You can't compare the situation to taking away a tipsy friends's car keys
No, you certainly can't. The conductor was in a professional position and had the shared responsibility to secure the safety of a trainload of passengers under his charge. He took no action, even after the motorman demonstrated his incapacity by overshooting station platforms.
I feel bad for the conductor, I wouldn't want to have to have been in his position. But he was in the position, and he acted wrongly.
In this case, i must agree. Management has fallen way short of the mark on this issue. I recently was working on a System Safety Audit where one of the items stated that my location should establish a 'Fitness for Duty' checklist. The problem is that there is only subjective criteria since I don't have lab facilities. What if my criteria is too rigid or too lax? Will Labor Relations support me if there is a law suit for incorrect findings. Anyway, I responded that it should be a standardized checklist from labor relations & System Safety. Time will tell if anyone is listening.
The views expressed are mine alone and in no way are meant to represent the views of the management of the MTA or NYCT
Correct if I misunderstood your response: you're saying you would'nt have punished the conductor?
You haven't misunderstood me.
No way can I give him a pass. Once the ride began, he was the only system employee who has in any position to stop the motorman. You've never heard the American cliche "Friends Don't Let Friends Drive Drunk"? Sorry, fate put him in the hot seat, and it was no time for "not my job, boss."
Having been in a similar position myself, I understand (in a way you don't seem to) the weighing of different factors that goes into a decision like this. If I don't stop the train, an accident may or may not happen. If I do, I'm delaying hundreds of people; I may be saving their lives, but then again I may be only inconveniencing them.
It's a thankless position, frankly, and if the conductor was at all uncertain of his authority, I just can't blame him. Sorry.
And as to "uncertain of his authority to do so" you don't think he was fearful of ratting on a fellow worker and facing other members who would've said, "the motorman had personal problems, he's lost his job, and it's your fault"?
You're reaching. Even if you're right, I doubt that was the only factor. In light of the conductor's testimony in the subsequent investigation, you're close to accusing him of lying.
This also was a failure of management, for not holding accountable all the people in the "chain of safety" of the system.
As Fischler made clear in "The Subway," the failure of management on this point was in not adequately communicating to conductors that, in this kind of situation, they have full authority to stop the motorman from proceeding.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
[ Conductor's responsibility in Union Square wreck ]
It's a thankless position, frankly, and if the conductor was at all uncertain of his authority, I just can't blame him. Sorry.
There's a difference between forgiveness and responsibility. In my memory we had a similar attitude in U.S. toward drunk driving. I'm talking about drunk driving incidents involving deaths. People would remember a time or two or three when they got behind the wheel when they know they shouldn't have, say "there but for the grace of God..." and be lenient.
Only when victims began to speak up was the essential foolishness of this attitude attacked, and now DD incidents are way down.
In light of the conductor's testimony in the subsequent investigation, you're close to accusing him of lying.
So? Noone in a criminally liable position has ever lied for CMA before a Commission? And these commissions have never been interested in hearing the lie to place the blame "higher up"?
This also was a failure of management, for not holding accountable all the people in the "chain of safety" of the system.
I made that assertion in my very first post. It was others who decided that the Conductor should be specially exempt from that "chain of safety."
As Fischler made clear in "The Subway," the failure of management on this point was in not adequately communicating to conductors that, in this kind of situation, they have full authority to stop the motorman from proceeding.
The TA would dearly love to make all trains OPTO. When we argue against this, we assert that we need a real, live, responsible human being to look after the passengers. And we pay that real, live human being $60,000 or so in pay and benefits to do that.
If all we except of a C/R is to open and close doors, the job might as well be done by a machine. At least a machine might have rung a bell and generated a warning in the Control Center when a train overshot a station by 200 feet.
[[As Fischler made clear in "The Subway," the failure of management on this point was in not adequately communicating to conductors that, in this kind of situation, they have full authority to stop the motorman from proceeding.]
[The TA would dearly love to make all trains OPTO. When we argue against this, we assert that we need a real, live, responsible human being to look after the passengers. And we pay that real, live human being $60,000 or so in pay and benefits to do that.
If all we expect of a C/R is to open and close doors, the job might as well be done by a machine. At least a machine might have rung a bell and generated a warning in the Control Center when a train overshot a station by 200 feet.]
One might say that the TA acted irresponsibly from both a financial and a safety standpoint. Financially, they use well-paid conductors rather than OPTO (no, I'm not getting into a discussion of OPTO). Safety-wise, they failed to communicate properly with these conductors regarding their authority to respond to dangerous conditions. What happened at Union Square was that a conductor was earning what we can presume was a nice salary yet had no idea whether he'd be fired if he stopped the nearly out-of-control train.
[[It's a thankless position, frankly, and if the conductor was at all uncertain of his authority, I just can't blame him. Sorry.]]
There's a difference between forgiveness and responsibility. In my memory we had a similar attitude in U.S. toward drunk driving. I'm talking about drunk driving incidents involving deaths. People would remember a time or two or three when they got behind the wheel when they know they shouldn't have, say "there but for the grace of God..." and be lenient.
Only when victims began to speak up was the essential foolishness of this attitude attacked, and now DD incidents are way down.
Yes, there's a difference between forgiveness and responsibility -- one that has not been reflected in your previous posts on this subject.
I'm not talking about forgiveness when I say "blame" above; I'm talking about formal responsibility.
[[In light of the conductor's testimony in the subsequent investigation, you're close to accusing him of lying. ]]
So? Noone in a criminally liable position has ever lied for CMA before a Commission? And these commissions have never been interested in hearing the lie to place the blame "higher up"?
Fine. You're accusing him of lying, which, unless you were very closely and personally involved in the investigation, is presumptuous at best.
[[[This also was a failure of management, for not holding accountable all the people in the "chain of safety" of the system. ]]]
I made that assertion in my very first post. It was others who decided that the Conductor should be specially exempt from that "chain of safety."
And I quoted it in my previous post. Why you chose to reproduce it as if it were a statement of mine is beyond me.
The rest of your post was more than adequately answered by Peter Rosa's post.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
At the beginning of this subject, I asserted that there was widespread responsibility for the Union Square accident. Nowhere did I especially blame the Conductor.
This entire discussion stems from your belief that the Conductor alone should not have been blamed, not my response that there is more than adequate evidence that the C/R too has responsibility.
You appear to rest your main contention of non-laibility for the C/R on your statement:
You won't get much argument from me here (except about the conductor; AIUI -- from the revised edition of "Uptown, Downtown," which is called "The Subway" -- the conductor didn't take action because he was uncertain of his authority to do so).
You feel me "presumptuous" to so much as doubt this, yet you cite the C/R's self-serving statement [that he doubted his authority to act]before the National Transportation Safety Board as the main justification for giving him a pass.
Is doubting this so incredible? If he himself thought it would be out of line to stop the motorman, why didn't he communicate the problem to the Command Center. In fact, the NTSB said "At a minimum, the conductor could have called the command center and reported the circumstances or requested guidance." [Fischler, The Subway, p.150]. "At a minimum."
Was my guess he was afraid of ratting on a fellow worker "reaching"?
There was another C/R on the train, an off-duty C/R (Steve Darden) who realized something was badly wrong, but also (though he spoke with the motorman) did not make a decisive effort to stop the train.
The responsibility was not Darden's however, and perhaps he felt more able to be candid in explaining why he did not act. He said "We don't talk about other people. We don't put the blame on somebody we work with." [New York Newsday, August 30, 1991, p.32)
At the beginning of this subject, I asserted that there was widespread responsibility for the Union Square accident. Nowhere did I especially blame the Conductor.
This entire discussion stems from your belief that the Conductor alone should not have been blamed, not my response that there is more than adequate evidence that the C/R too has responsibility.
That's a misinterpretation.
You appear to rest your main contention of non-laibility for the C/R on your statement:
You won't get much argument from me here (except about the conductor; AIUI -- from the revised edition of "Uptown, Downtown," which is called "The Subway" -- the conductor didn't take action because he was uncertain of his authority to do so).
Not to mention the official recognition, in the NTSB's final report, that the failure of the TA to communicate to its staff what actions they were authorized to take was a contributing factor in the accident.
You feel me "presumptuous" to so much as doubt this,
Actually, I said you were accusing him of lying (which is a lot more than just "doubting" him), and you agreed that that's what you were doing. I find that presumptuous.
yet you cite the C/R's self-serving statement [that he doubted his authority to act]before the National Transportation Safety Board as the main justification for giving him a pass.
Is doubting this so incredible?
No, but frankly accusing him of lying, with the level of knowledge you have about the accident, is.
If he himself thought it would be out of line to stop the motorman, why didn't he communicate the problem to the Command Center. In fact, the NTSB said "At a minimum, the conductor could have called the command center and reported the circumstances or requested guidance." [Fischler, The Subway, p.150]. "At a minimum."
Was my guess he was afraid of ratting on a fellow worker "reaching"?
No. But going on to assume you're correct is. You might be right, you might be wrong.
There was another C/R on the train, an off-duty C/R (Steve Darden) who realized something was badly wrong, but also (though he spoke with the motorman) did not make a decisive effort to stop the train.
The responsibility was not Darden's however, and perhaps he felt more able to be candid in explaining why he did not act. He said "We don't talk about other people. We don't put the blame on somebody we work with." [New York Newsday, August 30, 1991, p.32)
Again, that's one theory. I find your assumption that it's the correct one judgmental at best.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
I'm letting you have the last word, Tim.
I think I set out my position. Anyone who reads the totality of the posts can judge what's reasonable and what's not.
[Many at the time would have said it was the BRT's responsibility to keep the railroad running and get those Friday night commuters home. Absent the accident, many people would have complained long and hard if the BRT had followed modern practice and shut the system down.]
Also note that the crash occurred during wartime, when it presumably was thought to be particularly important to keep transit operating.
The Shore Line Trolley Museum presents its special program,
Autumn in New York, on the weekend of October 9 and 10, 1999.
The theme of this event will be a topic that has, for over 100 years,
been of great interest to New Yorkers in October -- baseball.
We'll look back at the origin of the term "subway series" and celebrate not only the great teams and playing fields of New York
baseball history, but the subway, elevated and street cars which
brought so many fans to the game.
The museum has the largest private collection of New York rail
transit vehicles. Many cars will be operating or on display.
A special offer which will be of great interest to the SubTalk
community will be extended on this weekend. You can run
a subway car, or a trolley car if you prefer. Just become a
new member of the museum (at the REGULAR level) or, if you are
already a member, upgrade your membership level. That amounts to
just $30 to run a subway car (less if you are a member already),
which has got to be one of the cheapest deals in town.
Several SubTalkers took advantage of this offer during the
New York in June weekend and I'm pretty sure they had a good time!
For more information, goto
www.bera.org/specev.html. The museum is pretty easy to get
to via car or public transportation, and you'll find very detailed
directions on the web site as well.
[A special offer which will be of great interest to the SubTalk
community will be extended on this weekend. You can run
a subway car, or a trolley car if you prefer.]
Eye was one of those folks that got to RUN a pair, Lo-V & Hi-V. It was just my dumb luck that they were still lashed togather when Jeff & Steve K. stood by as I pulled the handles. The stuff you get as a new member is worth at least half the "Regular" membership price, so get off the fence ... I'm glad I did.
BTW, You may find me there to throw a few switches for you.
Mr t__:^)
Ok. Well you've heard from two people. Jeff has promoted the event, and Thurston has given you a good reason why you kind folks out here on SubTalk should attend the Autumn in NY event. Subway cars gallore, and streetcars for the older generations who remember the good ol' days. I will be there in full force, and I'll assist a friend in getting the R17 ready for the event. The car will be in somewhat presentable fashion, and is at the present time, undergoing rehab. Just so you know, all cars come ready to run (sounds like an HO model!), so come out and have a good time. Are there any takers, besides Thurston who will attend the event?
Step up to the plate and take the controls of your favorite trolley or rapid transit vehicle!
Cheers,
Stef
I'll try my best to be there. I just have to figure out how to get from my current location in Ithaca, NY to East Haven, CT.
I was there last October (before members got to operate SUBWAY cars) but had a blast. I've tried to clear my calendar but since I just get back from vacation, I'm low on the list for getting weekend off.
Go Up There, It is a Blast!!
(BTW, Remove the Metrocard Adds from the R17??)
I may / may not be there - it depends on if I can find the time. When's the Croton Harmon open house? Isn't it useually around the same time? Ahh yes, in terms of subway stuff - what equipment do we get to pick from? :)
[ I may / may not be there - it depends on if I can find the time.
When's the Croton Harmon open house? Isn't it useually around the same
time? Ahh yes, in terms of subway stuff - what equipment do we get to
pick from? :) ]
Cars running that day, subject to change due to weather or other unforseen difficulties, will probably be:
1227 (BRT Gate car), 3662 (Hi-V), 5466 (Lo-V), 1689 (R-9), and 6688 (R-17).
Streetcars may include 220 (single-truck former cable, conduit car), 316 single truck closed, 4573 DT convertible, 629 DT closed lightweight, 1001 PCC.
P.S. Based on Jeff's comments in a previous post & if enough staff is present you'll also be able to get inside:
- H&M #503 ... it was on static disply on the loop track in June
- BMT Standard #2775 ... I'ld like to get inside it myself
- 9800 Nassau Elect/BQT Plow ... hay if it was part of the sys it counts !
BTW, the "Mineola" is on the property, but I don't think she able to see visitors yet.
Bonus treat: Montreal Tramways Rotory Snowplow is in the shop stripped down to her skeleton. You can see the pot belly stove and such from this 1910 relic.
Mr t__:^)
I wish I could be there. Too bad they're not holding it on Halloween weekend. UConn's Homecoming is taking place then, and I will be on hand for it.
If I were to make it, I'd ante up to give 1689 a spin, or at least play conductor, then follow that with PCC 1001.
Can we make the Mineola see visitors? If not the inside, at least a few picture shots?
We won't be able to take the car outside of the barn that weekend,
but we will have guides available to take interested souls into
the barn and board the car.
The MetroCard Ads were taken down alright. I'm going to talk to my colleagues about possibly replacing other ads that contain the new MTA logo, and seeing if there are any spares lying around the car shop. After the new MTA logo didn't appear until 1994, and the R17 had already been retired 6 years!!!!
-Stef
Furthtermore, I'm trying to decide if I might be there on both days, just for the heck of it.... If there's any event outside the NYC Transit System to look forward to during the year, it would probably be AUTUMN IN NEW YORK.
-Stef
I'm going to try and be there, if my schedule permits - probably on Sunday.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I usually attend this event with the entire family, so I hope to be there again this year.
And besides - with this offer, my wife can videotape me operating the train!
--Mark
9/16/99
All kidding aside! I just had a horrifying thought,Hurricane Floyd!
I hope Shoreline doesn't have any problems up there,they've had enough in the past. This might be the test involving the recent track rasings in the barns. AB #2775's motors are already messed up from a hide tide problem. Let's all keep our fingers crossed and hope for the best
Bill Newkirk
Thanks for your concern. We have people up there who are monitoring
the situation and are ready to move cars out of low ground if
needed
I plan to be there stag, weather permitting, on Saturday I had gone back in August and only had a chance to glimpse the R-17 in the barn. Might bring a couple of Net-less friends who were amazed when I told them of this site.
Wonder how I'm going to get home today.
I hope to meet you. I'm not sure at this point whether or not I'll be there on Saturday, Sunday, or both days, but whatever the case maybe (I'm actually leaning on Sunday), just ask for Constantine when you drop in. All of the regulars will be there including Jeff H. and Steve K.
-Stef
Jeff H. I hope they have these things every fall. I would love to run a train. I feel in the bones that if we hadn't moved to California when I was 14, I would have become a subway motorman, college education or not. It so happens I promised my Daughter a trip to Philadelphia that weekend to see her boyfriend play football for the Univ. of Penn. I might just detour to New Haven for the event. In any event, I hope to make that one of my annual trips when I retire in two years. Oh, I'm so envious for those of you who have already committed to the event. Have a blast.
Wish I could make it Jeff, stuck here in Fl until Nov. I was up at Shoreline this past members day and thoroughly enjoyed putting 3662 on the post!!!! Thanks again Jeff
I have started an unmoderated Transit Forum for Memphis Transit on Deja.Com
URL is www.deja.com\~memphis_transit
It is open to all. I hope that as a result of this forum, someone (NOT me) will start a web site for MATA (Memphsi Area Transit Authority).
(It is open for rail and bus discussions)
I drove along Santa Fe Drive last week from C-470 up to Downtown Littleton and got to see firsthand what sort of progress has been made on the southwest extension.
Construction of the new terminal station at Mineral Ave. is under way. Trackwork is in place from the new terminus all the way through the open cut in Downtown Littleton, and catenary towers have been installed. There appears to be a layup stub track extending to the south of the terminus across Mineral Ave. utilizing the old Rio Grande ROW. Twin bridges were built a few years back which span Mineral Ave.; when construction began on the light rail line, the eastern bridge was widened to accommodate a second track and the western freight track was shifted over. The remaining single-track bridge will now be used to lay up LRVs. The general consensus is the line will eventually be extended further south to Highlands Ranch.
As for the Platte Valley Spur, the latest news is that the Colorado Rockies have agreed to chip in their $300,000 share after becoming the laughingstock of Denver when word got out that they were refusing to ante up because the spur would only go as far as Union Station and not to Coors Field, which is three blocks away. RTD will look into extending the spur line, but says it would add $6 million to the cost. One advantage of extending the line would be utilizing the parking area around Coors Field as a park'n'ride facility, not to mention providing rail transit right up to the turnstiles, which is what the Rockies want. (I don't know if number markings will ever be assigned to our light rail routes, but it would be cool if the spur were designated as #4 or #7.)
Talked to my Cubic souurce in NYC about the MVM attach.
He said it was three not one machine that was involved. AND it was just vandalism against the screen vs. a effort designed to get into the box for the money.
Intereastingly my TA source at Livingston Plaza knew of the attach, but either didn't know or wouldn't comment on details.
Mr t__:^(
You mean attack, right? Or is there something new going on?
-Hank
Part of today's Daily News editorial calls
for a joining of the payment cards of PATH and the TA.
That is, a regional MetroCard that will allow transfers
between the city's lines and PATH (and a PATH increase to
$1.50). For that matter why are different areas in NJ
building their own limited rail links without any thought
to a greater regional design? I'm still hoping that some
day I'll be able to get from NJ to Chinatown quickly
without driving.
A Regional Transit Card (scroll
down)
> For that matter why are different areas in NJ building their own
> limited rail links without any thought
Not sure what you mean here. All rail construction in New Jersey is overseen by New Jersey Transit. This includes the Light Rail construction in Hudson/Bergen, the Newark subway work (in fact these projects are being undertaken in a coordinated manner in respects to rolling stock), the Montclair connection, etc.
> I'm still hoping that some day I'll be able to get from NJ to
> Chinatown
This is two problems in one-- First, NJ Transit is not part of the "Metropolitan" Transportation Authority even though arguably NJ is as much of the metropolitan area (or in some cases more so) than Long Island, Westchester, Rockland/Orange, southern CT, etc. So plans from the MTA side leave out NJ and vice versa.
The other interstate rail operator, the Port Authority, is hated by the city and isn't interested in (IMHO) in any more rail operations, as well as not being a part of the "Metropolitan" Transportation Authority -or- New Jersey Transit.
So you have three agencies that don't care to cooperate with each other in any manner. Throw the proposals for NJT access across the Pennsylvania border and you have yet another agency crying foul.
As for the farecard integration between PATH and the TA I think it's a great idea. Not so happy about the 50% increase in PATH fares but what can you do. Maybe some improvement of PATH service will come about as a result. (hahaha I kill me)
-Dave
[ As for the farecard integration between PATH and the TA I think it's a
great idea. Not so happy about the 50% increase in PATH fares but what can you do. Maybe some improvement of PATH service will come about as
a result. (hahaha I kill me) ]
Well, for people who only take PATH, it would be an increase, but for commuters who need PATH _and_ subway, it's definately a fare decrease. It makes all path-accessible NJ a one-fare zone, or incorporates the PATH ride into the monthly card.
What they might consider doing, is what they did (or probably still do) on some of the non NYCTA bus lines, that have $1.00 off-peak fares. The passengers can pay cash, at the reduced rate, but get no xfer, _or_ you can use a metrocard for $1.50, and get a xfer.
Path could issue "Path only" metrocards, which would have $1.00 deducted each swipe, with no transfer benefits, or people could use a "system-wide" metrocard, in either pay-per-ride or unlimited fashion, where pay-per-ride would be $1.50, and include a xfer to/from the subway.
A reasonable system could probably be accommodated for joint collection, although like adding free xfers to the NYCT system, it leads to lower per-rider average fares. Maybe the PA could be convinced that the increased ridership will compensate, like it has for the TA.
You might even get some intra-city ridership also, from unlimited users, although most of the system parallels the 6Av IND.
Well, for people who only take PATH, it would be an increase, but for commuters who need PATH _and_ subway, it's definately a fare decrease. It makes all path-accessible NJ a one-fare zone, or incorporates the PATH ride into the monthly card.
True, but considering this was an editorial and not a serious proposal from any of the agencies involved I doubt you'll see elimination of the two-fare system. Integration of the cards is one thing, and I have heard the proposal arise before this. Loss of revenue from fare-sharing (my term) is something else entirely. Like I said, the PA and the MTA don't usually cooperate on anything.
[Like I said, the PA and the MTA don't usually cooperate on anything]
Can you say "JFK Airtain?"
At least NJ Transit and the MTA can manage to cooperate when necessary. NJ Transit and Metro North seem to be able to work together with respect to the Port Jervis and Pascack Valley lines.
Where is the cooperation in the JFK project? I don't see any. PA building a people mover to the train station isn't cooperation.
Here's a quote from the editorial, by the way
The MTA should install MetroCard turnstiles in all 13 PATH stations and give New Jersey commuters free transfers to the transit system's 468 subway stations
No mention of the Port Authority's role here; it's as if this writer doesn't really think inter-agency coopration is a road block. The way this is phrased suggests that the MTA should eat the cost of the transfer, not the Port Authority. I'm sure that's perfectly fine with the PA :-)
The editorial mentions EZ-PASS, which, not having one, I forgot about, which is accepted at MTA and PA facilities. So maybe the single fare card isn't such a wild idea.
PATH is planning a fare increase this year or next anyway, although I think it was proposed to go to $1.25.
-Dave
This would make sense. I doubt either the MTA or the Port Authority would do that. Brian
Better yet- Have the PA get out of Transit Operations-- sell the PATH to MTA . The new Name: MTA Hudson Tubes. Of course Sixth Avenue Service would be reduced- or maybe the long promised Astor Place Connection.
PATH cars are IRT size no IND trains could not run to Jersey but I could see it now: one seat from Newark to Astor Place
Fare Hike: If service improves such as more express service and better late night/weekend service
Now that I really like. But we both know it's only a dream..... Brian
They also might be able to extend the No. 7 train across the Hudson into New Jersey if both systems were under MTA control, since you would be able to link PATH and the IRT on both sides of the river without an interagency turf battle.
Considering the proposal comes from the Daily News, which has been calling for a PATH fare increase for a while, they probably wouldn't support keeping the $1.00 fare even for PATH-only rides. The News has also called for eliminating the requirement that PATH operate under FRA rules.
But as Dave points out, the PA and MTA will probably ignore the Daily News altogether and not even discuss the fare integration plan. It was considered at one time, and (apparently, as it was never implemented) rejected.
Previously rejected or not, it is a fine idea. As a first pass(no pun intented). The unlimited usage passes could be accepted for cross system usage. As to fare integration, these agencies owe this to the tax paying citizenry.
I don't know whether it was a malfunction or evidence of a great conspiracy of silence, but I used my unlimited Metrocard (successfully) at a PATH turnstile last week. I was in a hurry and didn't notice that I had pulled my Metrocard instead of my Quickcard out of the holder I keep them in until the card had gone through the card reader and I was half way through the turnstile. It seems that at least some Metrocards work in at least some PATH turnstiles.
I found it interesting that the display on the turnstile claimed that I still had 2 rides left on the card. I found it more interesting that using the card in the PATH turnstile had no effect on my ability to use the card at MTA turnstiles and on MTA buses afterwards.
Could it be that PA and MTA are already cooperating on this and are keeping it a secret?
I've been contemplating a series of experiments to determine whether this was a one-time malfunction or a basic design feature but have yet to follow through on the idea.
Sounds like there is an experiment to try on the last day of my unlimited ride card.
I look forward to seeing the results when you post them.
Hey guys. Why should integrating metrocard and path require a fare increase? It's a *farecard*, not a token. You can deduct $1.00 for path and *$1.50 for the subway if you want.
True. The original editorial proposed allowing free transfer from one system to the other, which would probably require equal fares... Farecard integration is easy. FARE integration not so...
Since we are on the subject of PCCs in Boston, let's mention that the Newark City Subway was closed down for a few weeks before Labor Day to install new catenary to accomodate the extention to the new shops that are being built in Bloomfield beyond the Franklin Ave. Station. The PCCs will continue to run with pantograhs. Must get up there to take a picture.
The light rail line in Jersey City is progressing nicely. Last spring we saw a lovely CSX freight on the West End which rides above the Libery State Park station of the light rail line. As I recall, it is scheduled to open in Spring, 2000.
They are leaving the poles, one shop track at Newark was not converted to pantagraph because this shop will close once the new one is online and the LRV's are running.
The Newark Subway has been the source of much discussion on this board in the past few months. I don't recognize your name so maybe you didn't see our SubTalk Field Trip to the Newark Subway last June. One of our contributors sent me some photos of the PCCs with the pantographs. You can find them on the Newark Subway recent photographs page, but here they are:
http://www.nycsubway.org/nwksub/recent/nwksub13.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/nwksub/recent/nwksub14.jpg
http://www.nycsubway.org/nwksub/recent/nwksub15.jpg
Also the TA's "Transit Transit" has a piece on the line this month.
Mr t__:^)
I can't wait to ride the Newark City Subway again!
Andres
We're supposed to meet on Sept 25th at 8AM in Jamaica, but what part of the station? It's a big place. The entrtyway on Sutphin Blvd. perhaps?
I checked the ERA web page- it say Jamaica and that the track will be announced. Therefore- I'd say the main waitign room.
[ We're supposed to meet on Sept 25th at 8AM in Jamaica, but what part
of the station? It's a big place. The entrtyway on Sutphin Blvd.
perhaps? ]
I'd say just go and look for the only old diesel equipment there. The fancy new LED signs will probably say charter or special or something. If there's more than one set of old diesel equipment, look for the set with two parlor cars, and a cab unit. The RR hasn't used cab units or Parlor cars in regular service for months now.
Of course, you could always ask the info booth.
9/15/99
Kevin,
I am going on that trip also. Of course the track will be announced. But if my hunch is correct,either Track 4 or 5 will be used. As with past LIRR fantrips,these tracks are unused on weekends and tying up Tracks 1,2,3 and 6,7,8 would interfere with railroad train movement. Just look for the railfans with cameras !
Bill Newkirk
With Amtraks placing bets on the future with the still delayed Acela , I just was wondering what future equipment Commuter Railroads are going to put in service. I've heard about the LIRR future equipment (new bi-levels, the new Dual Mode Locos, and the yet to be designed M-7 MUs) but what about the other railroads. What is MNCRR going to replace their MUs and cars with? I mean the Genisis DM they have now are the future for their Diesel fleet but what about their electric fleet? On the Hudson and Harlem lines is MN going to also inheret the M-7 when it finally arrives? Also I read in some article that the New Haven line is considering doing away with the whole concept of MUs and instead buying electric locos and plain trailer cars and use them in a push/pull type operation (sorta like what NJT does with it's ALP-44s and Comet cars). This is a stupid question but Bilevels can't be use into GCT because of clearance problems?? Right?? Finally what is NJT next move, I've heard rummors that they are considering buying Bilevels to add to their fleet. If so where would the be used. I mean would they be able to use ALPs to pull/push them??? Most railroads operating Bilevels use diesel locos to move them. I'm just looking forward to see what the next move will be for the commuter railroads.
>With Amtraks placing bets on the future with the still delayed Acela
If things keep going the way they are now - there's gonna be free space in Penn in about 3 years.
>On the Hudson and Harlem lines is MN going to also inheret the M-7
>when it finally arrives?
Yep.
>Also I read in some article that the New Haven line is considering
>doing away with the whole concept of MUs and instead buying electric
>locos and plain trailer cars and use them in a push/pull type
>operation.
I've heard that too. it should be interesting to see how it happens. I hope if they go push pull they do it electrically - I'd hate to see New Haven get dewired. But then, I don't think the resdents in lower CT would allow that to happen.
>This is a stupid question but Bilevels can't be use into GCT because
>of clearance problems??
Among other places, which is another reason why Bilevels were a (IMHO) stupid idea to begin with.
>I've heard rummors that they are considering buying Bilevels to add
>to their fleet. If so where would the be used. I mean would they be
>able to use ALPs to pull/push them??? Most railroads operating
>Bilevels use diesel locos to move them.
I've heard so too. They could use the curret ALP-44s, though I've they don't accelerate pulling a heavy train as well. maybe they'll get something like the HHP-8s - I've heard NJT is looking to make a *big* order of equipment soon. Most RRs use diesels to move bilevels because most RRs in the US are diesel. No other reason why.
According to the NJT web site there are *no* reliable diesel/catenary dual power locomotives. (YES- I do knwo about amtrak but they are third rail and not caternary)
The method of power collection shouldn't make any difference, so I would assume that NJT doesn't think too highly of Amtrak's equipment either.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Whats that construction work underway just outside of the Bay Pkwy station? It seems they are replacing, or fixing the track supports for the CI-bound track. The M trains I had been getting on in the late afternoon have been running express from Bay Pkwy to 62nd. St.
Something simply HAS to be done with the hundreds of school children which literally invade the B line at the Bay 50th St. station every school day after 3:15 PM. Noisy kids, fights, running, crime, holding doors and unsafe platfrom conditions are out of control. I literally had to fight my way down the stairwell at Coney Island yesterday as a b train pulled in with at least 500 students as they took their sweet time to climb the stairwell. Then the train I was on was delayed almost 5 minutes while the conductor and a bunch of kids had a "holding doors" standoff at 25th Ave. Some of these children think they can hold trains indefinatley as their friends take their sweet time to get up to platform level.
Start revoking those free passes for unruly children and see how their parents like paying for them to get to school.
[Something simply HAS to be done with the hundreds of school children which literally invade the B line at the Bay 50th St. station every school day after 3:15 PM. Noisy kids, fights, running, crime, holding doors and unsafe platfrom conditions are out of control.]
Why not assign some of the School Safety officers to "after-school" safety duty on certain trains and at certain stations? They're trained to handle situations like you describe - probably more so than the police - and presumably many of them are available for duty of this sort once the schools let out. I know, I know, there'd be jurisdictional squabbles from now until the cows come home, but if some agreements could be worked out ...
There were some police stationed at the Bay 50th St. station last year, but the problem is when the kids got on the trains. They need 2 cops in every subway car on every B train leaving Stillwell from 15:07 to 15:57.
CAn't these kids be put on school buses even if they go to High School? maybe the dept of corrections could provide the busses and the guards....
i was out was on fri on "B" into stillwell ave. when train pulled into the station the place was swimming with cops, they even had the plastic hand cuffs arround their belts. i though there was a riot or something.
In DC, and employee can revoke a passenger's farecard or SmarTrip. Theys hould do the same in NY
{"One day I just might lose my temper and some of these youths will have their lives ended abruptly and violently."}
Better watch out. Those kids are better armed then the military Delta
force. Those kids most likely carry, machine guns, granades, bomb and other high order explosives.
That's the only thing that prevented me from commiting multiple murders yesterday afternoon. This problem has grown worse over the years. When I went to Edison HS in the mid 80's it was never that bad at 169thSt.
9/16/99
Does that mean they wear KEVLAR with or without the school insignia ?
Bill Newkirk
>>>In DC, and employee can revoke a passenger's farecard or SmarTrip. Theys hould do the same in NY <<<
How can they? The passangers could claim they don't have it, and the police owuld not be able to seartch them unless thewy were placed under arrest.
So you say that all High School students should have to ride in school busses? I'd rather PAY to ride in a MANURE TRUCK! Maybe just for some notably unruly schools or students.
I know of cities where High School kids ride city buses not regular city buses mind you but special routes. Basically the school district paid the transity authority to operate special bus routes (although students still paid a small fare) just for students.
Mike
New York is one of them. I don't know if all Junior High or High schools have this arrangement.
My school has no supplemental bus service because no one would use it, nearly every single person rides the subway. As for other supplemental service, those are for all passengers if they want to ride, not just students.
Interestingly, I'd rather pay $1.50 or whatever and ride the real bus as opposed to riding with rowdy kids. Although, I don't see much rowdiness on the subway with people from my school.
What I'd like to see is a "banishment" penalty. It would work like this: if a student (or, for that matter, anyone else) commits a serious offense on the subways or buses, he is banished from the system for a set period of time. For example, committing scratchitti might earn two years' banishment. Think of this as similar to a driver's license suspension.
There's obviously no way to prevent a banished person from riding a subway or a bus, just as there's no way to prevent someone from driving under suspension. But if our troublemaking student is found to be on a subway or bus when he shouldn't be - most likely because he's caught doing something else - he would face a mandatory, no-excuses-whatsoever, severe punishment. What's my idea of a severe punishment? I'll give you a hint - it is *not* a fine, probation, community service or a suspeded sentence :-)
Bring back the paddle, or the ruler (my father says those nuns in Catholic school ran a tight ship!).
LOL
Yes, they did. They didn't use a ruler or paddle, but the nun I had in second grade used to threaten offenders with a meat chopper. She also threatened to sharpen a kid's finger the next time he had to sharpen his pencil.
Ahhh, the good old days. Just a SMACK across the face, no "timeouts" or "therapists" trying to understand why you're being an idiot.
"Yes, they did. They didn't use a ruler or paddle, but the nun I had in second grade used to threaten offenders with a meat chopper. She also threatened to sharpen a kid's finger the next time he had to sharpen his pencil."
"Ahhh, the good old days. Just a SMACK across the face, no 'timeouts' or 'therapists' trying to understand why you're being an idiot."
There's a reason why this sort of thing went out of practice, and these postings touch upon it. Exactly why is someone "being an idiot" or threatened with sharpening their finger for sharpening their pencil? Is the student supposed to prick their finger and take notes in blood until the teacher allows them to sharpen their pencil? Was this the same kind of teacher who yelled out for the whole class to hear "You can hold it to the end of class!" if someone who was clearly doing the "potty polka" asked quietly and shyly to go to the bathroom?
We all realize that the proverbial slap on the wrist is no way to maintain discipline, and that something more than a one-on-one "chat," as if student and teacher are equals, is often necessary. But the other extreme, arbitrary and capricious application of punishment, doesn't maintain proper discipline either because both undesirable and desirable (or at least neutral) behavior are getting punished and the child can't be reasonably sure that acting a certain way will avoid punishment. The essential difference between spanking a child and abusing them (beyond the degree of force, of course) is that the spank is administered for the child's undesirable behavior which the child knows to be such, where abuse is done whether or not the child has done something undesirable.
In other words, if one spanks their child when they throw a tantrum, the child learns that throwing a tantrum gets followed by a spanking and decides not to do it in the future. What lesson does a child learn if their parent hits them at absolutely random times, or because the parent had a bad day, or because the child was legitimately crying aloud because they skinned their knee? What lesson does a child learn when a teacher bullies students for making legitimate requests? To make it even simpler, do you housetrain a dog by swatting it on the behind with a rolled-up newspaper at random times regardless of its behavior, or do you swat it only when it has made doo inside the house? The latter may or may not work, but we all know that the former will definitely NOT succeed in housetraining the dog.
Discipline can be harsh when repeated offenses demonstrate an unwillingness to behave, but it must also be certain and it must be fair. Fair not in the sense of a full hearing for every offense, but in the sense of knowing beforehand what will be punished and how it will be punished, and certain in the sense that like cases are treated alike, the teacher or parent does not play favorites, and a particular offense always receives a particular penalty unless a clear reason exists to vary.
Sorry for the long rant, and I'm not attacking the posters quoted above, but the attitude they document (whether or not they hold it themselves) is something I felt I had to respond to.
Memories of The Strap come flooding back. When I was in grade school in the late 1960s - early 1970s, the principal maintained discipline using a big leather thong coloquially known as The Strap. Punishment wasn't abritrary or capricious; you really had to screw up in order to get The Strap, but once the order was given, there was no backing out. A few applications across the palms of one's hand certainly made one realize the errors of one's ways.
Of course, The Strap would be wholly _verboten_ today. Even then, its use was somewhat controversial, especially given the fact that only boys fell victim thereto.
I can attest to nun's rulers and pointers which were effective management tools in grade schools!
Back to the topic, what amazes me the most are other riders' reactions to unruly students. I ride an express bus daily and the ride is great in the summer. Between September and mid-June, it can be tortuous, as students on their way to two Catholic high schools share the ride with me. It's mostly non-eventful but there are the occasional problems that really are bothersome.
When the kids get too unruly, fight among each other, or begin to start crap directed toward unsuspecting passengers, I have often intervened. Most times, the kids give a little lip but back down once they realize you're not going to back off. The unbelievable part of this is what I've heard from my fellow riders (most of whom bury their heads in books or look the other way when stuff starts happening). They usually chastise ME, telling me that "kids will be kids, they're just letting off steam, weren't you a teenager once," etc. I usually tell them that they shouldn't have to put up with this crap at 7 AM and, if they complained to SEPTA and/or the schools involved, something might happen. (I have brought this to the attention of both schools, but sad to say, it hasn't mattered.)
I continue to intervene, despite the remarks, since I feel I must. Last spring, two students got into a fistfight on a bus with a standing load. Of course, everyone tried to get out of the way. Another rider and I broke it up and told the kids that they could kick the crap out of each other when they got to their stop - otherwise, innocent people would get hurt. It took a little pursuading, but we kept them apart. When they got off, almost as soon as they cleared the bus doors, the fight began anew. One of the fleeing riders on the bus (a man), seeing this, said to the other fellow who broke up the fight on the bus, "you should get out there and stop that". I told this guy that it was his job - he didn't care too much when it was happening on the bus, so why should he care when it's on the street.
I think the sarcasm was missed by you in this post. Nobody is saying that smacking a child around is the way to make him behave.
I never saw a nun slap a kid in the face. She'd rap you on the head with a pencil, but that was about it. I heard that some kid got spanked with a yardstick by the principal.
We were never threatened with eternal damnation, BTW.
Being Jewish, I didn't go to Catholic school, but the four kids who lived in the next house down the road did. I still remember being upset by the cuts on the back of their hands, inflicted by repeated raps with the sharp edge of a ruler. It wasn't as bad as the beatings they got from their father, though. Spanking and firm discipline is one thing, abuse is another, and what those kids got at school and at home was clearly abuse.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
As a school student who takes mass transit to school, I can attest to the less than civil behavior that can be displayed.
Though it's a rare thing for me to ride a bus(haven't been on one since 1997) I've always seen the worst behavior there than on subway trains.
A particular bus line actually has reserved busses that come by my school at closing time because regular route buses simply cannot absorb the number of kids who ride.
Now three blocks from my school is the equally popular Broad Street Subway which serves Community College of Philadelphia and three high schools including mine just at this particualr station(and soon Phillies and Eagles fans if some folks get their way).
The BSS not only carries kids from South Philly up north(the more travelled direction in the morning for students) but at City Hall, with the connections of the MFL and all 5 SS trolleys, masses of students from Kensington, Fishtown, West, Southwest and Northeast Philly get on the BSS to go to school.
And behavior on the subway is generally good except for the prep students, ironically.
I guess it's an issue of what the kids have been taught about courtesy(and I'm talking about them like I'm an adult).
Well the N20/N21 has a few special buses for students at a prep school in Manhasset. Well one time one of these buses didn't show and the kids went on our bus. What a bunch of rowdy teens. That ride into Flushing was pure hell that day. Now I try to avoid the 2:22pm run whenever I can because these kids made the ride miserable. They curse, yell, jump around to the point you can't even hear the engine.
Unfortunately these special LI Bus runs (afternoon) don't always show, so all us regular riders have to deal with these no-good kids.
It's unfortunate that many children don't learn proper behavior. Unfortunately, that seems to be one of the side effects of the two-income family and also of the single parent family; in either case there isn't a parent at home after school to set an example for the children, and they don't get a decent example in a day care warehouse either. When we moved to rural North Carolina in 1981 we thought we would be in an area where poor behavior was less of a problem, and compared to Raleigh it was; however, as more and more Raleighites moved out to the country, the percentage of two-income families (especially those with children in the schools) increased and there was a noticeable decline in the behavior of the kids. Indeed, you could usually tell from the children's behavior whether they came from a two-parent one-income family, a single parent family, or a two-parent two-income family. Those from the two-parent two-income families, as a whole, were the worst behaved. We finally gave up when our youngest was in first grade and started driving them to the elementary school (our buses had both K-6 children and 9-12 high schoolers on the same bus, since the schools were located less than one mile from each other - the middle school was about 15 miles away). It was a drag for my wife but it was cheaper than replacing torn clothing and stolen textbooks.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This may sound like an excuse for those kids' behavior, and it's not meant to be, but my experience tells me that the amount of time parents spend on parenting from day One has a lot to do with how their kids act, as well as the type of moral fiber the parent displays. The candy wrapper doesn't fall far from the one unwrapping the candy, so to speak.
You have summed it up well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
But the next time a teenager pulls the cord and in the event the train cannot recharge the brake system and it is now stalled say between stations under a river tunnel ahh just how cute were those kids!
I had to dicharge many of trains because of School Kids. 1. At 96 Street- Bway on a Uptown No.1 train. I was order to discharge the train do to 6 Pulled cords moving from 79 St and 96 Street. I then went back in service at 137 Street.
On the No.6 Line it happened 2 times.
I was going uptown and a big fight broke out around the rear of the train. This was at 59 Street and Lex. The conductor desribed that it looked like a Bloods and Latin Kings fight. 4 cars badly vandalised. It was a R 29.
The next time was at 33 Street Northbound the Cord was Pulled and a 15 Year old female clamed she was dragged. This knocked the Uptown Local service from 14 St to Grand Central for 1 Hour. The conductor had to go downtown and I took the train light to the yard. Conductor got 4 Hours overtime and was cleared of all charges upon Investigation from TSS and SUPT.
It was found the conductor was dead center on the board with my cad at the mark.
As a parent, I can see how you end up with kids who act out. Telling your kids "no" all the time is the least fun part of parenting. And when you're busy and tired, the easiest thing to do is to give kids attention when they act out, and ignore them when they are under control. It's tough, and we're two relatively together parents. You get a single parent who isn't superhuman, or a parent who won't say no, and the result -- monsters!
At ages 5 and 7 there are already some kids I'd prefer mine not to play with. I'll see them treating other folks bad in front of their parents, and the parents do nothing, presumably glad their kid is dishing it out not taking it. Yeesh!
There are some stations that become stomping grounds for kids just getting out of school. At the 20th avenue station on the "N" Line, as well as 79th Street on the "B" vandalisim and Emergency Brake pulls are occuring on a daily basis now that school is back in session. The stations are painted very frequently to cover up all of the graffiti. I have noticed that Plain Clothes NYC Transit Bureau Cops are highly effective in detering this behavior. Increased police presence at stations where schools are located is the only way to keep these kind of occurences down. By the way for those of you interested here are a few stations that I know of that are regularly crowded with students getting out of school.
20 Avenue "N"
59 Street "N & R"
36 Street "B,N,R"
79 Street "B"
Bay 50 Street "B"
Ave M on the D
Ocean Parkway - Lincoln High
Brighton Beach - Grady, P.S. 253
Sheepshead Bay - I.S.98 JHS
Avenue M - Murrow High
Avenue J/H - Midwood High
ER Murrow has the most well behaved student straphangers I've ever seen. Occasional loud behavior but excellent compared to others.
My alma mata, I remember all the kids from Grady and Lincoln would come to Murrow to rob kids and to speak to the girls......
3TM Still safe from Floyd so far.........
125St. Transfer available to the M60 to LGA, M100, M101, and the Bx15 to Fordham Plz. The next station is 135St. Stand clear of the closing doors.........
Murrow is a very popular school among many people here in South Brooklyn, so I'm sure they have higher standards than your average zoned school. I have many people I remember who applied to Murrow High. I would have, had they not had the first priority requirement, but I could have because at the time I didn't know that Stuyvesant doesn't use the priority choice system on the basic application (separate application).
ER Murrow has the most well behaved student
straphangers I've ever seen. Occasional loud
behavior but excellent compared to others.
The emergency brakes should not be as acsessible as they are now. On the R110A, they will be about 4 feet above the ground. The trains should have intercoms and should not be able to move if the door is open.
Aren't our children just so sweet and precious? Yeah sure......
86th on the R line as well and the worst next to Bay 50th St., Elderts Lane (FK Lane)
I had friends who went to Bronx Science and had to share the Bedford Park platforms and trains with youth from DeWitt Clinton and Walton. Some of these friends had such harrowing experiences, they opted to return to their zoned high schools.
When Stuyvesant was still in its old location around the corner from Washington Irving, there used to be chaos aplenty. And Irving was an all-girls school!
It apparently doesn't pay to go to a prestigious public high school if you're going to be set upon by thugs all the time.
P.S: After two weeks of high school, I timed myself so I would never have to ride the bus past Saint Francis Prep in Queens when it let out. Even the drivers just gave up and lit up ciagrettes themselves.
I know exactly how you feel.I hawe worked that station as a clerk and I have worked the B line as a conductor,and now as a Train operator.I would not pick a job that made an interval anywhere between 1430 and 1530 out of Stl.You would be lucky if your train made it to Pacific St. in service.
you think the b is bad thy the d/q its worse there at least 7 schools on the line.
Here's an admittedly un-informed idea for the problem.
I am not sure what the rules are with railroads, but aviation rules are pretty strict about problems like this. If one interferes with the operation of an aircraft (commercial or private), he is committing a criminal offense and could face jail time. If someone dies as a result of those actions, the offender can face the death penalty.
Even if not entirely legal, you would just have to prosecute one child to wake up the parents (and make sure it got on the evening news).
Incidentaly, I think that a similar solution is needed for the railroads (like CSX, etc). Next time they hit a car, they should introduce a civil case against the driver and list the train delay, locomotive repair and track repair as damages. Again, the news would pick it up and drivers would realize that the railroad CAN sue THEM.
Brandon
I'm more concerned with prevention than prosecution. And much of the problem isn't even criminal. It's more of a nuisance. I can't tell you how many times a group of kids have held a conversation at one end of a car with another group all the way at the other end, necessitating them to SCREAM endlessly. Running around, general horseplay have made riding the B during these hours almost impossible.
One day I just might lose my temper and some of these youths will have their lives ended abruptly and violently.
One day just after the GOH R40's first were first introduced, I was stuck right behind one between 36 & Pacific for over 30 minutes. Fortuantely, my trip started from F3 track 36 St due to work at Ninth Ave. so virtually no one was on my train. Somebody pulled an emergency cord on that train for no reason and the crew couldn't reset it because they kicked a #1 cab door inward past some metal molding inside the cab which was put there so the cab door COULDN'T be pushed in by vandals but it was. An RCI in an emergency truck had to come to the rescue with tools to undo the damage........Another day, I had an R30 redbird. They all got on at Ninth Ave. because they messed up their B train there and it went out of service. Between 36th & Pacific, I lost motormans indication and main car body lights. I took a full brake--nothing I also lost my B2 (electric brake), I placed the handle into emergency. I was glad there was no B ahead of me because it took me FOREVER to stop. It turned out some body dropped out the battery circuit breaker from the #2 cab.
Flog 'em!!! These stupid kids are just another thing that make us hard working lonely folks even more miserable than we already are.
Go to Singapore. Their transit is clean, spotless, and reliable.
And the passengers are civil.
Why? Because in Singapore, rowdy kids get punished. They punish them and remind them to act in respect. The result is a society where people have values, girls date nice smart guys instead of jerks and riding public transit is a clean experience.
Similar things can be said about Hong Kong, Taiwan, and even parts of China compared to NYC. It's just too bad the Chinese couldn't have brought this thinking to Flushing, where it seems alot of these stupid annoying immature and ruthless teens are trying to destroy the "Chinese-ness" of Flushing and what it has to offer.
Dzai jyen
I've never seen such a large response to anything posted before than this. This has been going on for YEARS, and nothing ever gets done about it. If a cop is on the train, he is in the last car rapping with some chick. The same kids who screw up the railroad coming home from school will be the same ones who bitch and moan in a few years about the "lousy" service when they enter in the work place. I got invaded on a M train last Valentines Day eve after 6 PM after they caused a B train to go out of service at 50th St. I went out of service at Ninth Ave because they messed up my train as well. 2 crew members against several hundred kids. And the TA wants OPTO all over the place eventually!
I used to get them on my first trip from Bay Parkway occassionally. The only place where I would see police is at 36st.
The police really have to beef up their presence on all the trains that are inundated with teenage brats on school days, with special attention to the B, D and Q in Brooklyn.
Next week, the Ryder Cup Golf tournament will be in Brookline, which is just south of Boston. The T will be running a hundered extra busses in the bussiest sections, and will be providing extra subways in the green and orange lines especially, wityh a few extra trains on the red and blue lines as well. This event is sure to draw quite a crowd....and even while the T will try to keep things in order, I see commuter hell between 9/21-9/26. It will be like the Boston marathon every day. I wonder if the green line will run triple cars, which is a very rare site. -Nick
can't be any worse than after a red sox game. I think the green line sucks anyway. it doesn't matter how many cars they run. It won't help.
just my 2 pennies
Matt
If the T had the money to invest in the green line (they don't...they are $800 million in the hole), I would have a seperate track in each direction for each line (B, C, D, and E), to avoid "train traffic jams." Also, I would renovate half the stations on both the B and C line to make them longer and handicap accessable (right now there are no plans to use the type 8 there...only on the D), and shut down the other half....it's rediculous how there is a train stop every 500 feet. -Nick
I need some info for my site:
1. What are the underground portions of the Washington Metro?
2. Ditto for Chicago.
I don't recall for Washington, but two of the seven CTA rail lines have underground portions.
The Red Line (Howard-95th Street) operates as a subway from just south of Armitage station to north of Cermak/Chinatown station, under Clybourn, Division, and State Streets. The line is steel elevated before it enters the tunnel at Armitage, and comes out at the south end onto a modern concrete elevated that leads to the median of the Dan Ryan Expressway. There is one station under Clybourn, one under Division, and eight on the State Street portion under the Gold Coast, the Loop proper, and the south Loop. This subway opened in 1943, and before the Dan Ryan portion of the line was built (1969, I believe), the trains proceeded south on the original 1890s South Side L.
The Blue Line has two major stretches of subway. The 1953-opened Milwaukee/Dearborn/Congress subway operates under the named streets from a portal just south of Damen/North station to another portal just east of Halsted station. The line enters the subway on the north from the old Metropolitan L (which before the subway entered downtown by a different all-L route) and proceeds west from the Halsted portal in the middle of the Eisenhower (nee Congress) expressway. It has three stations under Milwaukee Avenue, one under Lake Street (where one can free-transfer to the Loop L routes), three under Dearborn in the heart of the Loop, and two under Congress Parkway.
The other section of subway on the Blue Line connects the outer end of the old Met L near Logan Square with the 1970 line up the median of the Kennedy Expressway. It runs mainly under Kimball Street on the Northwest Side of the city, and has two stations.
On the Congress and Kennedy median-strip portions of the Blue, there are some **very** short tunnels to go under expressway ramps and crossover lanes, but most people don't count these as they are all much too short to have stations and feel more like you are going through a long underpass than a true subway tunnel.
Two minor corrections to your excellent summary of Chicago rapid transit subways:
1. The Milwaukee Avenue subway opened for service in 1951, with Logan Square trains operating to LaSalle and Congress station.
2. On June 22, 1958, service started in the Congress expressway (Congress-Milwaukee route), replacing Garfield Park 'L' service, and connecting Logan Square with Congress. At that time, Clinton station opened, and subway service was extended to the Halsted portal and beyond. Some time later, Douglas service was connected, resulting in what CTA termed the "West-Northwest" route.
Prior to color codes being implemented in Chicago, the Red line was the North/South route, with service between Howard and Englewood or Jackson Park. The Green line was the Lake St. line, and was renamed Lake/Dan Ryan when the Dan Ryan portion opened. A realignment took place a few years ago at the same time the routes were color-coded. The Dan Ryan portion was linked up to the North/South route and became the Howard/Dan Ryan (or was it Ryan/Howard?) or Red line. Meanwhile, the Lake St. portion was teamed up with the Englewood and Jackson Park branches and became the Green line.
"The Dan Ryan portion was linked up to the North/South route and became the Howard/Dan Ryan (or was it Ryan/Howard?) or Red line. Meanwhile, the Lake St. portion was teamed up with the Englewood and Jackson Park branches and became the Green line."
After the "swap," the lines were called the Howard-Dan Ryan and Lake-Engelwood-Jackson Park. Until they started using the color names not long thereafter, CTA was proposing in rather odd posters that the riders say "HoDar!" to Mister "L.E. Jack," the former being an absurd little red cartoon character and the latter an equally absurd green one. Between calling the lines Red and Green and calling them HoDar and L.E. Jack, I think the color names are better.
Hi John Bredin, Esq. Did you know that the subways and the four track EL to Fullinton will be resignaled with Cab Signaling by Harmon?
No, I didn't know that, and it surprises me. I had always presumed that the entire system was set up for cab signaling because all the train cars are equipped for it. I know they still have regular block signaling in the 1940s/50s era subways, but I presumed that the ABS (automatic block system?) and cab signaling were both in operation simultaneously.
A related aside: I was on the CTA Blue Line last Sunday, and due to a slow zone in the Dearborn subway near Grand/Halsted station ("slow" being no more than 35 mph, so it's not exactly creeping along), we caught up to the train ahead of us, or as close as the signals would let us anyway. While in the subway, we couldn't see the train ahead reliably so the operator waited for the orange light to proceed to the next red light until it turned orange, etcetera. But once we were up on the L and could see the train ahead, the operator would stop at each red light, stick his hand out of the booth, and touch a switch on a box in front of the signal, whereupon the light would stay red but he would proceed. I presume this is what is meant by "keying by" a signal? He did this three or four times before the train ahead was sufficiently far ahead that we got orange or green lights instead of reds. I presume he got permission by radio to do this, but we obviously couldn't tell this from outside the cab.
WMATA underground sections: (I won't list route colors as I know I will do it wrong -- when I was living in Arlington, VA, they were always switching the colors!!)
On the line to Vienna, VA:
West of Ballston into DC
On the line to Franconia/Huntington (VA):
Short portion near Braddock Road
Just north of National Airport to just south of Arlington Cemetary
Just north of Arlington Cemetary into DC
Everything in central DC is underground but read on.....
Red Line -- Twinbrook down into central DC is underground.
Then it is back outdoors just north of Union Station out to Silver Spring, and underground again for the last couple stations. I understand it is VERY DEEP underground at that!!
New Carrollton line -- east of Stadium/Armory all the way to New Carrollton is outdoors. Trains to Addison Road go back into the tunnel just after the "split" between the Blue/Orange lines here.
Almost allof the Green Line is underground except the section out at the north end (and damn, if I can't remember the station name!!)
The Yellow Line's crossing of the Potomac River is done on a bridge, but it is underground on either side.
The station at the north end of the Green Line is "Greenbelt". The trip from Greenbelt south to Fort Totten (where the Red Line connects)
is in and out of tunnels, seems like only the stations are above ground, except for a few short stretches.
Chuck Greene
The actual answer is:
Red is underground:
From south of Twinbrook to North of White Flint
From South of White Flint to north of Grosvenor
From halfway between Grosvenor and Medical Center to just northeast of Union Station
For about 500 feet somewhere between Rhode Island Ave. and Brookland
From halfway between Silver Silver Spring and Forest Glen to just north of the end of the line at Glenmont, but before the outdoor railroad carwash.
Orange is underground:
From just west of Ballston to just east of Stadium-Armory-Hospital-Prison (to list everything at that station).
Blue is underground:
For about 1/2 mile west of King St
For about a mile somewhere between National Airport and Braddock Road
From Crystal City to halfway between the Pentagon and the Cemetery
From just after the cemetery to just after Stadium-Armory
From just before Benning Road to the end. But Addison Road station is not underground.
Yellow is underground:
The southern third of the Huntingdon station is buried in a hillside, so it is partly underground
A section just between Eisenhower Ave and King St for about 1/2 mile
Then Same as blue to Pentagon
then still underground for a mile up to the aboveground
section over the Potomac River
From just before L'Enfant Plaza to Mount Vernon Sq.
Green is Underground (and it is one line from Greenbelt to Anacostia starting Saturday September 18 at 0800):
From Anacostia to inches before the Fort Totten Station
From just after Fort Totten for about 1.5 miles, then under and over to W. Hyattsville, then under and over to PG Plaza, then under and over to College Park, then overground to Greenbelt.
Whew!!!!
Don't ask me to repeat this....
The very ends of Anacostia station peek out at daylight; if you remove the building above it, the station's in a cut.
Projected Green Line: underground to south of Congress Heights.
Southern Avenue station's in a cut. Underground again to just west of Naylor Road then elevated, then ground to Branch Avenue. Opens in 2001, we thinks.
Wayne
Actually, the line enters tunnel after crossing the Beltway south of Grosvenor (two stops south of Twinbrook). There is a tunnel between White Flint and Grosvenor (that's to the north of Grosvenor).
Think of the upper Green line as being entirely underground from south of College Park (where it turns and ducks into a hillside) with the following exceptions:
* Prince George's Plaza station, which is in an open cut.
* A 200-yard stretch of track west of Prince George's Plaza
* West Hyattsville Station, which is elevated.
* The eastern two-thirds of Fort Totten station which is just below ground level.
October 11 and October 12 I will be in DC to take pictures at the new stations. Anyone out there been to them? What do they look like?
Wayne
Your description of the Green Line's "ups and downs" sound like they are right on the mark. I kinda remember this configuration from riding the line just a few times. The thrill of riding through the tunnel , then emerging above ground is really neat. Are you going to post the picures you take of the new stations? I guess they are
ruuning the line through now, as the official opening was yesterday,
Sept. 18th.
Chuck Greene
I plan to spend two days in Washington DC on October 11 and October 12. At this time, I will tour the two new stations and photograph them both. I will also take pictures in the stations which I missed the first go round (August 27-28, 1998) - those being Dupont Circle, Van Ness-UDC, Tenleytown-AU, Arlington Cemetery, Pentatgon City, Federal Center SW, Capitol South, Foggy Bottom-GWU, Waterfront, Navy Yard and Anacostia.
* Also I will be taking some better pictures of places like Capitol Heights, Cleveland Park, Bethesda, Medical Center, Pentagon, McPherson Square, Archives-Navy Mem'l, Mt.Vernon Square-UDC, Shaw-Howard University, Judiciary Square, Wheaton and Forest Glen.
When this photo project is completed, I will then scan them and submit them to Dave for inclusion in the DC Metro pages. Expect some revisions to the text of the Green Line page, some of which has already been done. I updated the route map Friday night.
Wayne
Putting aside whether or not people like this idea, has anyone actually seen any kind of official announcement of this? I've seen the article in the paper (or was it a clip on TV?), but the MTA website doesn't seem to have it listed?
Are they going to provide materials to prepare for the test?
Where would you get those?
go to your local library or the Civil Service Bookstore on Worth St. MTA provides no study material..
Does anyone have any idea why the 1993 Subway Calendar seems impossible to find. All of the other past years seem to be available on the secondary market except 1993. Is there a particular picture on that one that makes it so scarce?
Well, since they're not printing them anymore, the older you go the harder they'll be to find. I don't personally have one older than 1994. The 1993 one hasn't been available for several years (I started collecting them in 1996).
Do they still make subway calendars for upcoming years like one for 2000???
They sure do. I hope to get one at the Gaithersburg show in November.
I got mine at Shore Line in Branford ... they may have some left for the October 9 & 10 event ... plug, plug
9/15/99
Here's the E-mail address for instructions on the 2000 Subway Calendar
newkirkimages@msn.com
Regards,
Bill Newkirk
I started collecting them about the same time and had no trouble getting '94 & '95 and have been looking for '93 ever since. I wonder if maybe there were fewer printed in '93.
Incidentally Dave, I'm sorry for the duplicate posting of the original message. I got disconnected when I clicked post the first time, after reconnecting I clicked post again, assuming the first one had not gone through, since it was still on the screen.
There's cause for celebration. My cookies started working at about 4:30 today, after being off since the 21st of February. I don't have the slightest idea what caused them to come back. The iMac has been back from the shop five days.
Typical Machintosh. :-)
Isn't the 1993 calendar the one with various fantrip photos? Equipment shown includes R-1/9s, R-10s, Triplexes, Lo-Vs, and possibly BMT standards.
Does anyone have any idea why the 1993 Subway Calendar seems impossible to find. All of the other past years seem to be available on the secondary market except 1993. Is there a particular picture on that one that makes it so scarce?
I think that was the original one, and the publishers had no idea how popular they would be, so there was a limited production.
Same thing happened for the 1986 LIRR calendar from the Long Island Sunrise Trail Chapter NRHS. Can't find one to save my life.
Speaking of calendars -- anyone ever get the 1999 New York Mega BUS Calendar from TSI? The 1998 issue had some problems and came very late, and I ordered the 1999 version (with a discount coupon from TSI to make up for the latensss of the 1998 issue) and I have NOT received the calendar. I am still fighting with the postal authorities on this one. (The guy who runs TSI does not seem to want to deal with things in a business-like manner, and NEVER has answered to a single query of the situation...)
The 1999 Calendar was never published. One of the folks who did some of the photo stuff works here. I understand the author had some personal peroblems. I suggest you send another letter as a reminder that you still waiting for a answer.
BTW, I too was sorry that it never came out. I have '96 thru '98.
Mr t__:^)
Nah, I'm not gonna waste ANOTHER stamp on Joe Saitta at TSI. He ignores any correspondence whether it be via postal mail, e-mail, etc.
He just won't ever get any business from me ever again.
He's the guy posting large amounts of auctions on Ebay. He advertised here just a "few" posts back if anyone wants to look.
9/16/99
Karl B.
I am the one responsible for the production and success of the New York city Subway calendar. 1993 was the first year as you stated. However the 1994 and 1995 editions didn't sell as well. Those back issues are still available,but their numbers are dwindling and eventually will join the '93 and become extinct. There are no special or rare photos in this issue,in fact all photos are my photography. This was an experiment to see if it would fly,and eventually it did.
The '93,'94 & 95 editions are 8 1/2 X 11 in size. The '96 to present are 9" X 12". It was the larger '96 edition with Don Harolds rarely seen photography which was the shot in the arm it needed.
And the rest they say is history.
Bill Newkirk
> There are no special or rare photos in this issue,
> in fact all photos are my photography.
You should put them on the web! Or, do you sell your old images?
-dave
9/16/99
Mr.Pirmann,
I purchased this computer back in July and this whole cyberworld is still kinda new to me. I'm learning as I am going along. Eventually I will come up with a web page and in fact I was thinking of what you suggested. Right now I'm canvassing around getting ideas about doing a web page. A couple of people told me that runs into big bucks. I don't think so. I will appreciate any help I can get on this and thank you for running a great web site.
Bill Newkirk
Well, most ISPs offer free web space, which allows a free website. As for writing HTML, you can use the free programs with the browsers, buy a program (shouldn't be too expensive) or learn HTML (variable cost, depending on whether you read some online tutorials, get a book from the library, buy a book or take several classes).
Bill Newkirk,
Thanks for the explanation. You were probably the one that my wife's girlfriend ordered the calendar from each year. For several years she would order the calendar for my wife to give to me at Christmas. You would send the calendar to her in DuBois Pa. That way I was surprised each Christmas. Last year we got the 1999 issue at the Gaithersburg MD Railroadiana Show.
I wish you could put a 1950's era picture on every month but I'm sure that would not interest today's subway fan.
Regards,
Karl B
9/16/99
Karl B,
Thanks for your reply. Sometimes I really can't make the calendar up by era. Whether 1950's,60's,70',80' and 90's I try to reach a broad base of train buffs by mixing it up. I've had some guy tell me once "great calendar,how about more stainless steel (cars)" It's not easy trying to please everybody,but I try.
Bill Newkirk
Bill: I didn't know that you were behind the subway calenders. They have wonderful pictures and certainly are collectors items. Do you plan on issueing one for the year 2000?
Larry,RedbirdR33
9/16/99
Larry Red Bird,
Yes,I am the brains behind the operation. Also yes there is a 2000 edition is out. I'll E-mail you instructions for obtaining a copy by mail order. Any other questions,please utilize my E-mail address.
Regards,
Bill Newkirk
newkirkimages@msn.com
Bill: Do the same for me. I would love to have a 2000 Subway calendar. By the way how far back do you have these calendars. I would like to know. Do old ones still exist?
Fred, search this list for other messages posted by Bill. The information is there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I remember that on some line on NJT the end doors on the side are keep open. (The ones you have to climb down stairs to get out of the train.)When people cross between cars it is possible to fall out of the train. Does NJT still do that or did they change their policy?
Saw this about 2 years ago on the Port Jervis line.
[ I remember that on some line on NJT the end doors on the side are keep
open. (The ones you have to climb down stairs to get out of the
train.)When people cross between cars it is possible to fall out of
the train. Does NJT still do that or did they change their policy? ]
The LIRR did the same thing when they had low platforms. It's not feasable for crews to open and close traps at each stop. Crews on the LIRR, by rule, to try and prevent passengers from entering or exiting the train when not stopped in a station. Also, all the doors on the LIRR _do_ say "PAssengers are prohibited from passing between cars while train is in motion".
I always found it funny that they have these stickers there, and then _ask_ passengers to walk between cars in order to exit at stations with limited platform capacity. (i.e. Penn to Jamaica, announcements goes, "We have 12 cars tonight, the head 4 cars only will platform at Forest Hills, please walk forward now to exit at forest hills. The rear 2 cars will NOT platform at Jamaica, passengers wishing to exit at Jamaica must walk forward ..."
Of course, passengers simply _cannot_ follow both the instructions of the crew, and the instructions posted on the doors, because they are strictly contradictory.
Nobody reads signs _or_ listens to announcements anyways..
there was an article in the ny daily news (brooklyn section) about the shuttle completion date ahead of schedule posibly next month the franklin ave sta. looked really nice in the picture with stained glass windows as passengers disembark the shuttle and make their way to the A/C lines ..the article was in 9/14 dail news should be completed in oct.. good news for bklyn straphangers
I saw a strange ad for Amtrak's new (and postponed) Acela service today, posted on the side of a Bx22 bus.
It shows a Woody Allen-type character, with his coat pulled over his head, and the line "DEPART from your inhibitions." There is a small picture of one of the train sets and in the upper right it says "Live Life on Acela" or something like that. At the bottom left is the Amtrak name. That's it. No explanation of what Acela is or why anyone would want to be on it.
There's also a large ad for Acela being drawn on the side of a biulding at the NE corner of 34th St. and 8th Ave. The ad must be about 15 floors tall!
Here in Philly there's a building near Penn's Landing with two sides covered with Acela ads(including the "weirdo" ad with the guy covering his head?)
Is Amtrak using vagrants on the trains as an excuse to postpone service?:)
i was outside south station here in boston a few weeks ago and saw a huge ad with a watch on it. i asked my friend what watch company it was? maybe rollex or rolix. but it was a acela ad. not very effective advertising if you ask me.
Matt
If you still remember it after a few weeks, then I'd say it's more effective than most other advertisements. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Here in Baltimore we have 17 buses with Acela ad panels, plus a wrap job of one bus. The ad panels I've seen, they are of the guy covering his head. Haven't seen the wrap yet. No LRV's or subway cars yet - the LRV's still have 5013 running with the mylar Oriole players on the sides - that have permanently adhered to the car side - seven years after being applied.
I've seen those and others on Metrobuses and in Metrorail in DC
And my thought was: If you actually tried to board an Acela looking like that, they'd never let you on.
Their TV spots are pretty strange too. A guy hunting on a sidewalk (?) for an outlet. Alluding, of course, to the fact that Acela will have outlets at your seat for laptops, but the ad doesn't say any of that.
I did see an ad on the side of a bus in the Bronx a few weeks ago that actually had a picture of the Acela Express trainset on it, so maybe they're finally starting to run ads that give you a hint as to what Acela is.
9/16/99
Remember those ads years ago about "your brains on drugs" ? Well after they kicked the habit it was already too late since their brain cells were fried anyway. They entered the world of advertising and VIOLA!..ads that make no sense.
The ads on the LIRR comprise of a blurred tree probably photographed on a Atlantic City casino bus barreling down the GSP,and on the lower right hand corner is the ACELA logo.I guess they are trying to appeal to our subconscious and dump our cars and take the train. Sounds convincing enough to me!!!
Bill Newkirk
I was just in a Subway car yesterday that was an all Acela car. As people mentioned here last month, it is a mystery as to what they are advertising. I'm curious about how much money was spent on this promotion? They seem to be trying to create an image, although it would seem to me better just to promote the reality of the time saved.
I would guess that the new service is aimed at the high end consumer. Perhaps this group is hard pressed for time, as they have over extended themselves in their efforts to make money by the screwing of America. A more subliminal message is necessary, as they are busy making deals on their cell phones.
heypaul, GOOD ONE ambition which calls for the selling out of others deserves IRS armed intervention. as for Acela, only time will tell if it will be a turning point in America's foolish attitude toward rail passenger service, however marketing rail passenger service to the business traveler in a dense corridor could be a home run. Passenger trains should be for all, not just lower income groups, railfans, and those who fear flight
as new york prepares for lots of rain,yours truely is crossing his fingers that trains will run thjrough this. i dont have a plan to sit for 2 1/2 hours to get to work if this happens. is the ta prepared..i hope. nobody here wants to relive that long commute we all took so long ago. good luck everyone
We will find out tomorrow. (Took me 5 hours, 4 trains and a bus during that heavy rain we had a short while ago).
I'm sorry for making people angry or whatever, but I'm actually hoping for big rain, it's an excuse for missing school.
Obviously your parents don't have to stay home with you. I'm missing work, if you can call what I do work.
I hope the LIRR is running into Penn Station. I have a ticket to the Rangers exhibition game tonight.
[I hope the LIRR is running into Penn Station. I have a ticket to the Rangers exhibition game tonight.]
I noticed some street flooding while passing through Mineola around 7:45 this morning. It wasn't anywhere near the tracks, but that could change.
Thanks, the game was cancelled. I'll get a replacement for next Thursday against the Flyers.
Yes, you read that right. My very reliable source advised me that there will be a MetroCard Collectors show on Saturday October 23, 1999
from 10 AM to 6PM at:
BagaTelle Restaurant
12 St. Marks Place (8th St)
Nearest stations (like I have to tell anyone here) Astor Place #6,
8th St N/R
The event is spnsored by Telecard Times.
Additional information call: Greg Loibl 212-563-5889
That is all I know at this point. I imagine there will be some sort of admission.
If anyone finds out anything else, don't hold back.
Oh N-O ... Oh N-O !
This hobby has been FUN for me, it looks like it may get serious.
I'll be there ... thanks Allan for the input :-)
Giuliani is telling us the City has a contingency plan to shut down the subways in case of flooding and have lots of extra buses marshalled.
They're talking about the "worst" of the storm being at the Queens-Nassau border. That implies the eye would pass either immediately east or west of that point. I think it's way too early to predict that.
Where's Wolf Larson when we need him? He'd steer us through the storm.
Paul: If this storm is anything like the one we had a few weeks ago maybe CH will let us borrow some submarines from the Navy. The water was too deep for the trains.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I hope they decide what to do BEFORE I head for work Friday morning, and take my kids to school. I'd hate to have the system shut down in the middle of the day.
The subway system is actually designed to handle near-hurricane rainalls. What crippled the system 3 weeks ago wasn't that it rained a lot, but that it came in such a short period of time (3 inches in 15 minutes) that the drainage systems couldn't keep up. I doubt we will see flooding of the type that shut down most lines on that day. However, those subways that are usually prone to flooding (Hillside Ave IND, West Side IRT, etc.) might be effected. And if the winds become a problem they might cause problems with the elevated lines.
Well said, ChrisR. You can be an honorary meteorologist!
Thanks. As my first acts as an honerery meteorologist I am issuing a "sun" warning for the entire area tomorrow from 5:55 to 6:15 AM. There is a 100% probability that a large ball of burning hydrogen will appear in the sky. Shelters have been opened and Mayor Guiliani has mobilized every emergency service in the city. Stay tuned for further information.
Hehehe ...
Of course, as Todd knows well, no prediction concerning such a storm is anywhere near 100% sure. Hurricanes are steered by some pretty fickle factors and when they are partly over land and partly over water, they are most unpredictable.
Todd: If the storm passes over Washington, DC, what will the updraft of extremely hot (but dry) air cause the storm to do ;) ?
Hoo boy, Gerry, that's a tough one.
Probably it will react just like Congress: Take a recess, but ask for a raise (though deny it).
Since the thread has now moved to Foggy Bottom, I must point out that it has been proven that hot air does not rise. If it did, Congress would be on the moon by now.
Rim Shot!!
Its good that we can laugh now and then!
I heard Congress actually did vote themselves yet another pay raise. So what else is new? They also doubled the President's salary. That's OK, since the last time it went up was in, I believe, 1968. That means Mr. Bill can buy himself a few extra cigars. Speaking of which, since Floyd missed the White House, we can say close, but no cigar.
I'm probably alone in this, but I have no problem with people in the House and Senate getting $1 million a year and the President getting $2 million. vs. what? I think about $135K for congress and $400K for president at present?
$1 million plus salaries are entirely appropriate for the nature of the jobs.
However, I have a catch. That's all they get. No contributions from lobbyists. No "soft money" which ends up as their retirement funds if not spent on campaigns. No big campaign contributor putting up more than $1 million for someone's new home in Chappaua.
I want them to work for me, not people slipping them money. If a cop takes a free sandwich from a deli owner we think it's corrupt. If our elected officials take much more it's business as usual.
(High salary, no legalized bribes). Good idea. The only campaign funding you'd get is what you saved out of your salary. But I'd want term limits (12 years) as well.
I'm generally against term limits. I think voters should decide how long a person should serve.
Also, when politicians leave office is when they start to collect the real goodies from the people they've "helped" over the years--the consultancies, the lobbying assignments, etc.
If there is flooding, you won't hear "everybody out and push". Instead, it'll be "man the oars"!
Question -- what happens when rising water hits the 3rd Rail? Don't you end up with something like a radio in a bathtub?
Question -- what happens when rising water hits the 3rd Rail? Don't you end up with something like a radio in a bathtub?
I doubt that. I've never been able to tune a third rail to any radio station, even the strong ones.
However, I would expect that electricity would follow the shortest path to ground, and the power would short out, closing down the line.
Fresh water is not a good conductor, but the assorted crud in the trackway will increase the conductivity. In all likelyhood, the current flow would not be great enough to open the breakers. However, once that water gets into a warm traction motor it can cause some serious damage , thus NYCT will stop service and shut off power before this happens.
Fresh and salt water does there harm to the signal system including to train stops and switch machines. I remember the infamous flood on the Archer Avenue Extension around 1984. It was on the lower level at Parsons/Archer and Sutphin Blvd stations. The new signaling equiment had to be replaced including the CIR and RR equipment.
Philadelphia let us students out at 12:30 today instead of closing school like what happened in NJ and Delaware(and NYC, or so I read on MSNBC).
How bad is it up there?
Down here we've got serious rain, some flooding and gusty winds at times. And the worst isn't expected until late this afternoon.
Stay dry and high, all.
Amen to that! I couldn't believe the morons who run the school district in Philadelphia would wait until 9:00 AM to make a decision one way or another. It was pretty evident at 7:00 what the conditions were and were going to be. They should have either closed or else stuck it out. If they closed, parents could at least stay home from work with their kids; as it stands now, parents who struggled to make it in only have to turn around immediately to get their kids.
Yes, it was a dumb decision. School should have remained open. I can't figure out why those who aren't smart and/or gutsy enough to make the go or no-go decision first thing in the morning get the flash of brilliance that a half-day is better. This has been happening more and more with snow also (on those rare recent occasions when we get it). It bothers me because:
1. Everyone's already struggled to get to school, work, etc. If the decision is made to cancel the day at sunrise, many parents will also need to take off from work to tend to the kids. On a day like today, when commuting is already a headache, this would mean fewer people using transit and fewer cars on the road, which would ease the commute to a large degree.
2. School closing at 12-12:30 means students are ready to go when transit isn't. Special school runs are not ready to go at that time. I was in a meeting with SEPTA's #2 bus operations person at 10 AM. He had heard nothing from the school district on early closing at 11, when the meeting ended. More lead time is needed to get operators to the depots and on the buses and out to the schools.
3. School closing means many parents will need to leave work early to tend to kids. Many businesses decided to shut down early also due to this. Unfortunately, this was at the height of the storm. Roads were already being closed and Regional Rail trains were facing 1 hour delays at that point, with City Transit merely described as "major delays systemwide" by 1 PM on our local news radio station. The PM rush hour was at its worst at 1:15. Transit was still catching up from late runs in the pre-noon time frame. Needless to say, there will be many three- and four-hour transit ride stories in the papers tomorrow. (I left Center City at 5:30 and it was a virtual ghost town with no traffic and no delays, with the peak transit services nearly the only vehicles on the road. Of course, they werely mainly empty!)
We live in a very panicky society and, in my opinion, we seem to want to make emergencies out of everything. Granted, this was a serious storm, but if this is the case, and all indications were that it would only get worse, then make the decision early in the day not to expose yourself to it. If schools are going to close, don't not close them in the hopes that the forecast might be wrong. It's better to be safe than sorry...? School districts, especially those which depend on transit to move many of their students, need to recognize the reality and constraints that transit agencies have.
I know that classes here at U Penn were cancelled during the evening on Thursday. The bookstore also closed at 4:30 pm.
I think the hurricane should have come a day later. Why? FOUR-DAY WEEKEND!!
How many 'rain' days did you have when you went to school? When I went ('63-'75), I had none. The need to cancel schools because of a rain event (albeit a large one) is related to the fear of litigation we have in society today. I've been told by school administrators that the main reason behind school cancellations is liability. This stems from two things:
1. In districts which provide bus transportation for students, any student involved in an accident on a bus on a snowy or icy road will result in a lawsuit brought by his/her parents.
2. Students hurt on their way to school, coming home from school (even on foot), or on school property will result in lawsuits.
I've also heard that there is a fear of stranding students either at school or on buses for the same reason.
Is school cancellation in whose best interests?
And, as noted in another post, NEVER NEVER cancel a half day!
I never was in a school that had a rain cancellation either, there was a cancellation due to a broken furnace (oil, not coal, I've never been in a coal heated school) once. However, on December 11, 1992, I missed school because of the rain. My school's website said that school might be cancelled, so I took the opportunity to hope for it.
Paul: If this storm is anything like the one we had a few weeks ago maybe CH will let us borrow some submarines from the Navy. The water was too deep for the trains.
I wish I had a few submarines to lend. :-) I don't, however; one reason for this being that I have no connection to the US Navy.
For the record, I'm just an IT 'geek' with interests that range from electronics, to trains, to naval power.
CH "This scordcard sponsored by...." ;-)
ARRR, Matey! Me wants Hurricane Floyd to walk the plank, the scurvy scoundrel!
Projections sound like Five Towns/Rosedale/Valley Stream will be in the "ground zero" area according to Bob "Mr. Hurricane" Sheets.
Yes, batten down the hatches unless you want your keel hauled!
The bright side to all this is that it will probably obiterate the drought in the Northeast and pretty much assure that there won't be one next summer.
Don't be so sure......
The drought has got some serious dents in it(the emergency was downgraded to a watch in South Jersey), but it ain't over and sometimes heavy rains hurt more than they help.
Well, ChrisR, here I disagree.
To alleviate the drought, we need slow soaking rains, of about 24 hours duration, a few days apart, for a month. The 4-8 inches of rain possible from this system will not all soak into the ground water system; most of it will run off.
And the water system is so fragile, that even if we had an abundance of rain (which brought levels to or over 100% now), its beneficial effects would be long gone by next summer. Most months in the NYC area have 3-4 inches of rain. As long as we're one inch either side most months, the water system stays OK. Many months under causes a drought; but many months over doesn't help in a substantial way for a long period of time.
Hmmmm, many weatherman were stating that the area getting hit by a good tropical storm would allevate the severe drought. Perhaps I should be more careful in what I believe. LOL.
ChrisR, you have to be careful... there's a difference between a 'weatherman' and a 'meteorologist'!
True, a good tropical storm will help alleviate the drought. But not make up for 4+ months of underperforming clouds :-)
are all lines running right now....???
[are all lines running right now....???]
So far (as of 11:50) I haven't heard otherwise, but that's subject to change.
From what I've heard, the only outage as of 2:30 is the SIRT between Tottenville and Huegenot (sp?).
A few more interesting hurricane tidbits:
The storm surge ("piling up of water") that causes the worst flooding, is just to the right of the landfalling center ("eye") of the hurricane/tropical storm.
The heaviest rain is to the left of the track of the landfalling center of the hurricane/tropical storm.
The force imparted by the wind varies with the square of the wind speed. So doubling the wind speed quadruples the force of the wind. That's why "losing" 20 mph on a decaying storm doesn't sound like much, but it means a lot with respect to the force (and thus potential damage) from the storm.
A terrific Hurricane FAQ has been prepared by a colleague of mine, Chris Landsea (yes, that's his real name!), who works at the National Weather Service Tropical Prediction Center in Miami. It's a great read!
(Rain worse to the left of the eye).
Given the geography of the NY area, is it fair to say then that flooding from rain is a bigger threat to the trains than flooding from waves? If the Harlem River backed up, it wouldn't be a good thing for the 207th St yard, either.
... there's a difference between a 'weatherman' and a 'meteorologist'!
"You don't need a meteorlogist to know which way a meteor blows?"
I enter that for worst parody based on a popular song.
Guess I should leave the Harley in the garage!!!
(Big rains run off). Ah, but runoff in the watershed, while bad for upstate farmers, a flood threat for Delaware River towns, and no help for those relying on well water, is good for resevoirs. At least there is no threat that the city will have to let water loose to prevent it from running over the top of the dam.
If the storm tacks just east of Brooklyn (as you say, most do), we may have a partial test of the Coney Island Yard issue. Finding out what happens in a category 1 might give an indication of what might happen in a category 3. It will be interesting to see if the creek backs up. The sewage treatment plant might also be affected. I wouldn't want to be flushing in south Brooklyn tonite.
Indeed, this will be an interesting test of NYC's infrastructure. The long-term history says that a storm of this magnitude will occur in the area once or twice a decade. A stronger one perhaps once every 30 to 40 years.
I still contend that I'm more worried about a moderate earthquate. But that's a different thread (and one we've been through!).
[I wouldn't want to be flushing in south Brooklyn tonite.]
How about flushing in Flushing?
(In my case, swimming through Mineola might be the LIRR's new transportation option this evening...)
That's worth a rim shot.
There have been some humdingers of storms (like in the '50s) in the six plus decades that the Coney Island yards have been around and I never recall them going under water.
Remember also that the engineers who built even some of the older lines were not oblivious to the need to deal with nature in a bad mood.
For example, are you aware that the Brighton cut (c.1907) has a humongous storm sewer running all the way to Ocean Avenue?
I wonder if anyone's cleaned the traps on that one lately? ...
9/16/99
The ultimate irony would be FLOYD battering the Rockaways and the North and South channels bridges not getting stuck in the open position !!!
Bill Newkirk
I would think twice before riding the LIRR's Montauk line. There are a couple of places near Oakdale where the tracks are only a few feet above water level.
I think all of the LIRR (except for a little stretch west of Oakdale)is north of Montauk Highway, which was originally plotted to be the south shore's all-weather highway--i.e., inland enough to be above flood level in a major storm.
I think the Hurricane of '38 was the only one to seriously flood Montauk Highway. Of course, it's been raining steadily at Babylon for over 12 hours, so a close hit on top of that is NOT GOOD and there are a few places where the LIRR is on narrow strips of land, like at Neapague, west of Montauk.
Floyd, if you're listening ... keep veering east ... the ocean is lovely this time of year.
The hurricane of '38, as well as Bob and Gloria in recent years, held together as hurricanes while Floyd met his demise over N. Carolina and Virginia.
Fortunately NYC is positioned in such a way that few hurricanes can reach us at full force. Whereas the outer banks seem to have a "kick me" sign on them.
Yeah, that and the fact that we are far enough north that these tropical 'bags of wind' tend to die out from the long trek up the coastline. However, I feel next time we may not be so lucky. We are actually overdue for one of those big nasty bruisers like devastated Long Island way back. That's just a statistical fact.
Doug aka BMTman
PS. Kevin, I'll have those images for you by Sunday.
Yep, I showed up, waited 2 1/2 hours, and spouted off on my favorite topic (money) to the 2 1/2 board members who were left -- after asking if there was still a quorum.
I pointed out that the city spends less than the national average, as a share of its residents income, on transportation to the tune of nearly $1 billion per annum, that it could afford lots more investment at the national average, and that the reason is high spending on other things (Medicaid) and in other places.
Left unsaid (in three minutes) was the fact that the waves of city and state politicians who had showed up previously to "demand" a full length Second Ave Subway are the very people who have set those priorities over the years, and the priorities are unlikely to change unless they are removed from office by one of the two legal means in New York -- death or indictment.
(For Paul -- no one spoke against LIRR to GCT -- everyone who is in favor of more transit in the city is also in favor of that).
Sad to see the old MTA hands who showed up to testify after wasting their career producing documents that led to nothing (shades of MY future). It ticked me off to see all the environmental activists who demand an EIS for everything show up to endorse the project. Why should something that is good for the environment demand an EIS.
Larry, don't you know that the Yuppies are the ones shoving those EIS's down our collective throats. They are always concerned more about some lowly "endangered" animal (or their own condo investments) than about providing better service for the quality of life for everyone in the city.
BTW, hope you can make the tour on Saturday.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey! What tour??
-Hank
Upcoming Events
9/16/99
OH HELL....BUILD AN "EL" !!!
That might be the only solution. The dust raised by subway construction would kill the Snail Darters 3000 miles away!! That's why the EIS !!!
Bill Newkirk
The EIS solution is to exempt mass transit, exempt small scale road transportation improvements (ie. improved exits and entrances, underpasses) in already developed areas, and exempt redevelopment of already developed land. All those nuts fighting redevelopment of the East River waterfront on "environmental" grounds. Better to redevelop Husdon County and Brooklyn than to pave over Morris County and the Pine Barrens, I say.
Walking tour -- I'm tied up until the end of kid soccer season, but I would like to get together to walk that Bay Ridge line in mid-November.
Sounds good to me, Larry.
Regarding the Bay Ridge Walking Tour: one thing I'd like to find out -- if you know this -- is where we would, legally, be able to enter the Bay Ridge Line in western Brooklyn. I am aware of a location near Glenwood Rd. and Kings Hwy.(Flatbush/Ruby section) where an entrance is fence-free and nearly street level.
Doug aka BMTman
(For Paul -- no one spoke against LIRR to GCT -- everyone who is in favor of more transit in the city is also in favor of that).
And everyone I know in LI who transit advocates are in favor of Second Avenue.
Sheesh, at least in Boston, there are uniformed cops on the subway mezzanines at one station (which happens to be my home station) every weekday afternoon at 4:20PM to 5:00PM or so for those coming out of Boston High School about one block from my apartment complex.
Honestly, those students are very unsavory...one of them killed another on the steps of that subway entrance back in 1993. I fortunately barely avoided it that day because I took a bus home that day instead because I had lost my pass earlier in the month. Another killing happened inside that school in 1990. In short, they are an eyesore in my neighborhood, as it is a residental neighborhood, and most of those students, are ironically black and Hispanic. It does give me the chills when I pass the high school on the way to the PO for example.
As for my high school, I went to a prestigious (very famous, also) prep school, and if you took the subway (Green Line "E") during the 2 PM time slot, there will a crush load of students around that station. Unfortunately, I have heard that a robbery + sexual assault occured inside the vehicle a number of months ago, allegedly perpetrated by 5 13 + 14 year olds, as it made the newspaper the next day. The rowdiness level is fortunately much lower in the Green Line though, as the students who boarded that line (I sometimes did, but I took a bus or bus + Orange Line) are much more civilized than those at the "B" Line at Bay 50th St.
The Orange Line is probably one of the most rowdy lines during the morning and school dismissal hours, as it has two major bus hubs: Ruggles and Forest Hills, and both has its share of rowdy students.
In fact, there are some more stations that have a reputation for such rowdy behavior, but I will leave it at that.
Nick C.
Unfortunately these rowdy type kids seem to be spreading, like a disease. Last year, the streets of Flushing, Queens seemed more like a Chinatown with fairly orderly chinese (and korean) people who basically were friendly and minded their own business.
However, as of this summer, you got gangs of asian, black and hispanic kids walking around and hanging out at the Burger King. I've already seen a few fights at the streetcorner at Main and roosevelt right by the BK.
I'd expect this kind of behavior from the black and hispanic kids, but I'm suprised to see asian teens who are usually pretty well behaved getting into this.
Perhaps that's why I go to Chinatown more often now, less annoying kids and more Chinese culture. I think we should flog and cane these kids to get them in line just like Singapore and China.
I don't like this new generation I've been seeing in Flushing, they are just so much trouble. I really miss seeing all the kind and friendly Chinese people I used to see in Flushing, now I have to go all the way to Chinatown.
Also Roosevelt Field mall has rowdy teens of all races, white, black, asian, hispanic, that mall should be avoided especially Fridays and Saturdays!
[I don't like this new generation I've been seeing in Flushing, they are just so much trouble. I really miss seeing all the kind and
friendly Chinese people I used to see in Flushing, now I have to go all the way to Chinatown.]
That's Americanization for you :-)
The Americanized Asian teens in Flushing are for the most part not Chinese, but Korean.
[I'd expect this kind of behavior from the black and hispanic kids, but I'm suprised to see asian teens who are usually pretty well behaved getting into this.]
Why would you say you EXPECT that kind of behavior from black and hispanic kids? YOU SHOULDN'T EXPECT THAT BEHAVIOR FROM ANY KIDS!
Your message has a tinge of racial stereotyping which is general at best and truly racist at worst. You should look at the BIG picture (ie, in prodominently white neighborhoods you will get white kids acting rowdy -- black neighborhoods will have black kids doing same, etc, etc, etc.) KBB (kids behaving badly) is something I have noticed that crosses racial, ethnic and sometimes economic lines.
Just wanted to add some loose change (two cents no longer cuts it with inflation these days ;-) to the post here.
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately, racial profiling works in reverse, allowing nasty white people to get away with things, generally at the expense of non-nasty white people. There is a huge conflict brewing between neighbors at the top of our block and a growing gang of teens who hang out of the corner.
At first, the local teens were hanging out on stoops in groups of five or six until late at night, and making lots of noise. You have to tolerate that -- teens naturally are louder and keep later hours than us working folks, and our kids will be teens too. Those living next door quiet down when you ask them to -- until twenty minutes later when they fire up again and forget about the rest of the world.
But now there is a group of about 50 up and the corner, going to 3 a.m., banging on street signs with baseball bats, and smashing car windows. When a neighbor called the cops, her windsheild was smashed. At first, the cops wouldn't even show up -- he they have Latino kids to deal with in Sunset Park, and aren't interested in babysitting white kids in Windsor Terrace.
Weird quote from outraged neighbor: "Giuliani would never make people put up with this sort of behavior in a housing project!"
[re rowdy white teens in Windsor Terrace]
[Weird quote from outraged neighbor: "Giuliani would never make people put up with this sort of behavior in a housing project!"]
It may be a weird quote, but it's true.
["Giuliani would never make people put up with this sort of behavior in a housing project!"]
That is most likely true because they are city-owned, and hence he wouldn't tolerate any "horseplay" during his stay at City Hall.
Doug aka BMTman
I'll tell you a secret about handling teens: show strength. They understand it, and they are mostly psychological cowards. If they smell fear or heaven forbid, respect, you're a dead man.
>>>I'll tell you a secret about handling teens: show strength. They understand it, and they are mostly psychological cowards. If they smell fear or heaven forbid, respect, you're a dead man. <<<
Where the hell do you come from? I am 16, and would respect and listen to people who show respect. People like you, I just ignore.
I'll tell you a secret about handling teens: show strength. They understand it, and they are mostly psychological cowards. If they smell fear or heaven forbid, respect, you're a dead man.
That depends on the kids. There are a very small number of reasonably responsible teenagers who will react better to respect than intimidation. However, 'showing strength' to the rougher edges of the youth population will just get an unarmed person killed.
Until legislators and the courts take a hard line against youth violence and quality-of-life crimes (i.e. two convictions on any charge earns automatic life inprisonment), even the police will be nothing more than a paper tiger to these people. The only kind of strength the delinquents will respect is the strength of overwhelming punishment combined with the will to use it.
Well sorry to imply that I was racial stereotyping, because the sad truth is kids of all races are out of control. What I don't understand is how the tendecncy of asian peoples' teens to act more well behaved is fading away. What is causing this?
Here on LI, police seem to always be on the lookout for kids in the minority areas but in white areas the kids get away with so much stuff. We really need to realize something bad is going on with kids in this country and it has nothing to do with race, but the "liberalization" or the tendency to just let kids do what they want instead of reminding them what's right and wrong.
Why are kids running rampant?
Answer: Alot of parents are afraid to dicipline their kids. Ever heard of parental abuse?
Part of the problem is our much too fast-paced society and also the fact that I notice parents these days are all too likely to shower their kids with whatever they want instead of instilling them with old-fashioned values of "you want something expensive, save up your allowance/Get a job". Kids/teenagers are SO spoiled these days that they expect things to go their way -- when they don't -- society gets misfits.
I am no expert on the Asian community, but I once heard something very interesting on a talk show regarding the large influx of Asians to New York: the myth that they are excellent students in things like Math and Science. It is only a myth and has been hyped for decades. They have the same problems in raising their kids as the rest of us. Yeah, in their home country that myth may have been true. But their kids are going through the same educational system as whites, blacks and hispanics, so logic dictates that Asian kids are going to have the same problems/triumphs as the other groups.
I guess we can blame it on Americanization.
Doug aka BMTman
Right on!!! As a matter of fact the bus stops on Springfield Blvd by Cardozo HS and Francis Lewis Blvd by St Francis Prep (Middle class schools) are much more rowdy than the Utica/Fulton subway stop by Boys and Girls HS. I've worked in both areas and we were called alot more to the Cardozo area than Boys & Girls. Teens are teens, no matter what Ethnic group. And remember, we were all once there ourselves!!! I know I was no angel!!!!
"I don't like this new generation I've been seeing in Flushing, they are just so much trouble."
Beyond the racial spin you're putting on the issue (although you do admit that "Roosevelt Field mall has rowdy teens of all races, white, black, asian, hispanic"), I disagree with the whole "they were better behaved in the good old days" thing that you and others have on this topic. MAYBE the degree of misbehavior is greater now, but annoying horseplay and after-school fights have probably been around since schools have existed.
Ask someone who went to high school when they still ran streetcars about the "old trick" (old because their parents had done it when they were young) of rocking the streetcar by having everyone move repeatedly from one side of the car to the other. Other passengers were scared that the car would topple over, but the kids thought it was great fun. Anyone here remember this "sport"?
9/16/99
I answered Karl B.'s post about the 1955 film "Somebody up there likes me" and the subway scenes I remember. Now let's test your memory.What favorite films had those memorable subway scenes that made your list of favorite flicks? Past or present.
Bill Newkirk
Bill, check out the list of movies in the Bibliography. We've had huge threads on this before! :-)
-Dave
Dave: Some time ago I saw a movie with James Brolin where there was a subway crash and a bunch of people led by Brolin had to battle their way out of the debris. Do you know the name of the movie. I want to rent it. I think the train was a #4 Wodlawn-Utica car. It reminded me when the Sea Beach haad #4 for its heading. Let me know if you can----or anybody else out there.
Fred, there was a lot of discussion on the subject of movies a couple of months ago. As a result, Dave has put together a bibliography elsewhere on this site. The movie you are looking for is A Short Walk To Daylight, I believe, based on information on that page.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse: Thanks! What a great bunch of guys on this website. It would take quite a bit of class to have another website have people who are so helpful and knowledgeable as this NYVsubway.org group has.
But I have got to admit, sometimes I believe I'm in over my head. I thought I knew a lot about the NYC subway until I got online, but the Sea Beach Man is still learning a lot of new stuff every day.
I've learned a lot on this website myself. Once in a while, A Short Walk to Daylight pops up on TV. That's one movie I haven't seen yet. BTW, if you want to see Triplexes, check out Class of '44. It has a brief shot of the Museum's Triplex train cruising into a station on, presumably, the Brighton line. At least two of the three surviving units were used. 6095 is plainly visible, though I'm not sure about the other one.
9/18/99
I believe thatb scene with the D-types was shot at New Utrect Ave on the West End. Even a period newsstand was set up in the Sea Beach stairway area to the fare controls.
Bill Newkirk
It's hard to tell exactly where that scene was shot. The train is definitely pulling into an express station, so it would have been 62nd St. if it was in fact the West End line above New Utrecht, or Bay Parkway if it was the stretch above 86th St.
I still think it would have been even neater if they had actually filmed Benji boarding that train.
That would be either "A Short Walk to Daylight" or "Short Walk to Daylight" (it is listed differently by various reviewers). The film was made by Universal Studios. I believe it was originaly one of those ABC "movies of the week" of 1971-72 (I think) and had the premise of an earthquake hitting NYC and trapping several passengers and TA crew in a subway tunnel. It was actually quite good for its genre at that time.
In the late 70s it was repackaged in syndication with additional/altered footage that changed the earthquake premise to that of radical-terrorists who planted a bomb in the subway system. (The producers probably made the change since an earthquake of the type depicted hitting New York wasn't very believable at the time.)
An R-4 type car was used in early parts of the movie which duplicated the look of a subway tunnel fairly well if memory serves me right.
The goofy thing about "Short Walk.." was the identification of the train and it's route. At some point the motorman tries calling Command Center and mentions his route as a "Flatbush local". Since the train was IND and the car an R-4, the route was total nonesense. And since they were trapped in one of the tubes the line it should have been was either a Rockaway/Lefferts bound A (or C), or a Coney Island F.
Sometimes ya just gotta laugh at Hollywood inconsistancies.
Doug aka BMTman
I completely forgot that movie when I made my list of movies in an earlier posting. But I do remember it now. The only thing I liked about the movie is the R-4. I'm a big R1-9 fan!!! Only a NY subway buff would notice the Hollywood inconsistancies!!! By the way, talking about Hollywood inconsistancies and using poetic license what do you all think of that train they used on the movie about the Colin Ferguson shooting. Looked more like the commuter trains on the old Rock Hudson/Doris Day movies (like Send Me No Flowers) than the LIRR!!
Since Hollywood (and television) is so bankrupt for original ideas, CBS is now promoting a NYC "Earthquake" TV movie, to be shown during the fall premere period. It's sure to be chock full of innacuracies, stupid plot tricks, and the like.
Like many of the TV remakes (movies and TV shows), this one sounds like something to be avoided.
9/17/99
Yes Dan,Hollywood is bankrupt for original ideas as well as morals. BEWARE of any movie or TV movie that replicates any old movie or TV show that we all know are classics. They try to revive and relive an old classic but fall short of it. There is nothing like the original!!
Bill Newkirk
Which is why Nick-at-Night and TVLand are such big cable hits. Nothing like Original (color) TV. For Original B&W (including Kinescopes) see Game Show Network's "Sunday Night in Black and White"
Classic quiz shows from the 1950'S!!
1950's - When Low-V's ruled the IRT, Standards ruled the BMT, gate cars still owned the Brooklyn els, and streetcars were all over Brooklyn.
(Preceeding paragraph to stay on proper theme.)
Maybe not too far out. Manhatten is on a old earthquake fault, and a couple of weeks ago NBC or CNN had some interesting facts on places where I bad earthquake can happen, and the people are not prepared, or even the City, and one was NYC
Tbe movie that CBS is running may be possibly based on Chuck Scarborough's Book **"Aftershock" Copyrite 1991 From Crown Publishers** This Book Is Fictional but there is fatulal info about the Falt that runs along 125th Street. This Falt possibly had created Manhattan Valley. In The Book There are a number of "scenes" where Passengers are traped In the Broadway 1904 Tunnel on A #3 Line Train And later escape the train and make there way north From Chambers Street Station to Lincoln Center Station Over 3 Days after the quake.
The Details in the book of the subway tunnel and the stations along the line were resurched thru the NYTA Files and staff.
Doug: Thanks for the info. That WAS the name of it. Your mention of it lit up my brain. I saw a #4 train in it, so it could have been the
Lexington Express, but it's been so long since I've seen it I could be mistaken. Nighthawks with Sly Stallone had a nice Subway scene with a B train. Do you recall that. It was made in 1981.
I have the video of Nighthawks. They brought out the remaining R-1/9s on the property for that one, and used Hoyt-Schermerhorn for both the 57th St. and 42nd St. station backdrops. You can actually see "Hoyt-Schermerhorn" at one point, but you have to advance the video one frame at a time in order to do so.
One amusing moment occurs just after Stallone manages to jump onto the moving train. Billy Dee Williams tries the storm door and hollers, "It's locked!" Well, DUH!!! If you look real close, at that moment, the storm door has a split window, and the route sign is displaying a B. As Stallone gets ready to kick in the window, all of a sudden the storm door has a single large window, and the route sign is showing an S.
What can I say - I scutinize subway footage.
Steve: I missed that but I'll look for it next time. The B also doesn't to Hoyt and Schermerhorn, at least I don't think it does. I know the G train does. Good show.
No, the B does not go to Hoyt-Schermerhorn. That station is commonly used in movies for subway scenes and is often disguised with different signs.
Some of my favorites: (but I am half asleep now so I probably forgot some!!!) I'm assuming TV and videos count!! If TV counts my favorite is when Lucy is on the subway with a loving cup stuck on her head. When she gets off at Flatbush Av she asks someone where she is and he says "EARTH" (Yeah, I know it wasn't a real train but I loved it anyway!!)A movie (don't remember the name) where a bunch of hoodlum teens get on a Low(or high)-V and terrorize a couple. In the movie "Naked City" (not the TV show) one of the characters takes the Flushing Line home. (Low or high-V)King Kong of course!!In the movie "Is Paris Burning?" there is a scene on Paris El train where a German Officer is yelling at a German soldier with an Allied spy sitting across the aisle during the occupation. (Although movie made in '60s so I don't know if it was an authentic W.W.2 car)The Saverein Coffee commercial in an IND standard (R1-9) The 2 part video sold at the transit museum giftshop-"The Vanishing El" & "New York Rapid Transit" An old Bogart/Cagney movie (don't remember the name) where one of them takes the LIRR to Mineola (steam engine!!) Theme of "Welcome Back Kotter" Ghost"Pride of The Yankees"Oh, I almost forgot "Pelham One, Two, Three" (I saw them film the police car chase scene from my classroom window at Pace U. on Park Row)Well I'm sure I'll remember alot others once I lie down & go to bed!!!
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
The cop car scene in the original Pelham was where the ransom money was being transported from the Federal Reserve Bank to the 28th St. station at Park Ave. South. The accident in which the car flips over was purely Hollywood; the novel makes no mention of a wreck.
I can still hear the Borough Commander: "You still got 28 blocks. Floor the sonofabitch!!"
Speaking of "the original Pelham": I was reading in my Leonard Maltin just the other night that Pelham had been remade as a TV movie (last year?). Anybody see it? Was it any good?
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
I think I saw part of the remake, and I didn't like it. There's a sequence in the original I really love. It takes place in command center, and Walter Mathau is negotiating with the hostages, and one of the dispatchers is really fuming because they're tying up his railroad. Walter Mathau yells at him, that there are people's lives at stake. The dispatcher responds " They paid 15 cents. What the hell do they expect to live forever?" Something like that.
That line was taken right out of the novel: "Screw the @#&%$&$# passengers! What the hell did they expect for their lousy 35 cents - to live forever?"
The remake is terrible; it's really not worth watching. For starters, it was filmed in Toronto, not New York, and the acting was very dry and wooden. You can tell the actors are just going through the motions.
The remake of Pelham 123 is lousy like you said. Next to the Stupid movie called Car 54 Where Are You?, Pelham 123 sequel was the second worst.
Thanks Steve. I kind of felt the remark was a little richer than I had remembered. Paul
The Mayor gets off a great line:
"Let them HAVE the @#$$%&% train, we've got more!!"
The mayor gets off a few good lines, as a matter of fact. The one you're referring to was, "We're going to let them keep the %$#&%$# subway train. Hell, we've got plenty of them; we'll never even miss it." (Too bad it wasn't a train of R-16s.)
When the Deputy Mayor tells him he's going to make a personal plea:
"You know what'll happen - what always happens. I'll get booed."
Then, "What if the hijackers start shooting at me?"
"They have no reason to shoot at you."
"Why - do you think they're from out of town?"
"Get dressed, Al. I'll do the jokes."
9/18/99
Re:Pelham 1-2-3
I bought a video tape of that movie for $5.00,sealed never played. And there is one scene that till this day stumps me. IN one scene there is a train (R-22's)in an obvious B-division station,Check gap in platform. The tall black Transit Police captain is radioing command center in reference to the comandeered train. Now,I studied the tile work in that station and for the life of me I can't figure where it is. It's definitly a B-division station , But not a typical IND station. It isn't a Hollywood set either , although Hollywood can produce a really convincing one. Check "Money Train". Can anybody out there help me out ?
Bill Newkirk
Funny, I've been reading this thread for a couple of days now. I've just left my webtv to go check on my 3yr old son who fell asleep with the TV on and noticed Richard Pryor was on a NY subway in a movie on channel 11.- I looked it up-"See No Evil, Hear No Evil." Its still on now (if you're in NY) but since I never saw it I'm not sure if there are any more subway scenes.
Did anyone mention the 1990 movie with Demi Moore GHOST. OR the Movie MONEY TRAIN, also the remaking for TV Taking of Pelham 123, or some scenes from Brighton Beach Memoirs. Also both versions of King Kong where he wrecks the 3rd Ave E in early version, 6 train in the later vision
Everyone except Brighton Beach Memoirs were mentioned. I think it was the 6Av el in King Kong. The thread was very long and ALOT of movies were mentioned.
I ll go one more and quit, The 70 s Movie the Warriors, shot mostly on the IRT
The Warriors was shot on the IND (Fulton St. express during the opening titles) and BMT divisions except for a very brief snippet in which the Union Square IRT station is visible. The giveaway here is that R-27/30s are used almost exclusively, with no uniformity whatsoever as far as train markings are concerned.
Bob: I never recognized the train in "Ghost". The tunnel it came out of looked different from the ones I saw in New York. Does anyone know which train that was and the name of the station. The scene was early in the movie.
I don't remember the underground train in the movie but there are scenes with the Bway Bklyn El in it, by Woodkill Woodhull Hosp.
I also recall the Franklin Avenue Shuttle in the movie (with Pre-GOH blue door R-32 cars).
Yes, I recall a street scene w/the B'way El in the picture. That was shot somewhere in Brownsville or by East New York (Swayze goes looking for the Puerto Rican dude).
Doug aka BMTman
It did not say or even given the number. I Think it was the Eastside IRT downtown. They also used the J Line to get to Whoopie Goldbergs place in Brooklyn. They were inconsistant. Whoopie Got on BMT/IND car in Brooklyn, and off the IRT in Manhatten. I would have to see the movie again and pay attention. I would not be suprised if Turner has it on sometime this season. If so check it out
That was the 42 Street Lower Level on the 8 Ave IND. Look on this site for more info.
I've speculated that it was either Court St. or Hoyt-Schermerhorn with a fake wall built along the entire length of the platform. The only other possibilities would be 42nd St. lower level or City Hall lower level, also with a fake wall.
As I said earlier we watched them film that sequence from our classroom window at Pace U. at Park Row. They did an awful lot of takes. It seemed like they repeated it every 15 minutes for the whole day!!!
By the way, as someone in the NYPD for 18 years I can't imagine a real life borough commander having the b__ls to actually say "Floor the sonofabitch"!!!
I was wondering about your take on the two officers who had to drive the money up from the Federal Reserve. My memory was they were tearing up the streets to 28th Street, and one of the guys said I've always wanted to do this, sort of meaning that he always wanted to barrel down the street without giving a damn about pedestrians. Although I guess that was just movie talk, since I guess you can lose your taste for high speed travel after enough 10-13's. By the way, what was the name of the actor who played Mike the cop?
GORDON JONES
P.S. I cheated. I put an A & C video in the VCR to look at the credits!!!
By the way, I've always thought Sydney Fields was a
really great comedian. I always wondered what
happened to him and if he was the same Sydney Fields
who had a column in the Daily News for years. And
don't forget Hillary Brook-I've had a crush on her
for over 40 years!!!
click here, Paul
or here
That's okay, I wasn't sure of his last name. Yesterday morning I saw a sector car in the 61, that was marked something like "seized car" and it was a Mustang but in regular department markings. I never noticed that before. It was cute to see. Is that how the department got their buses, by seizing TA equipment?
Was it marked 61? Usually those cars go to Hway. By the way, I put the same link twice-this should have been the 2nd one!!!
You know I really didn't see the id. I live in the
61 and just figured it was a 61 car. It's a good
thing that it didn't have to testify. I would have been
murdered on the stand. The audio clip was good. By
the way, I had an idea for seizing vehicles. Wait
for the next Bus Festival Day, and if the Mack is on
the street by the Museum, see if you can write it up
for being parked near a pump or improper plates or
no inspection sticker. Get NYPD to seize it, have
them paint it over in PD colors. Get it for your own
sergeant's car, and it will keep your men in line.
They'll know that if they mess with the Sarge, he'll
run them down with a Mack Bus. The Mack would be
something to have in a pursuit. The perps would
look out the back window and see a Mack bus bearing
down on them. BTW, in what episode does Sid Fields
not playing the landlord, tell Costello " Mine is a
sad story. Would you like to hear it? "
Niagra Falls
I got you to say it. Sloooowly I turned, step by step, inch by inch.......
If you're so good Sarge, give me a list of the different characters Sid Fields played in A & C
beside the landlord. I have to sit down on this one also.
This is completely off topic but since you asked I'll mention some roles that I remember right now off the top of my head: (Certainly not complete) Professor Mellonhead at Police Rookie School A few different judgesThe "Niagra Falls" inmate Lou's lawyer in the same episode owner of Field's Employment Agency Radio announcer on how to paint your car (Lou thinks its how to give a rubdown) car dealer (Friendly Fields)And in the movie "Little Giant":gas customer at beginning of film I'm sure as soon as I press "Post Message" I'll think of a bunch of others!!!
click here
The lines were, "I always wanted to do this. Look, we're scaring the s--t out of everybody." To which his partner replies, "Yeah, including me."
Then, at one point, when they report their location to the Borough Commander, the BC replies, "Keep it coming! You got less than 4 minutes!" "Uh, yes, sir, we'll make it." Then he turns to his partner and says, "We'll never make it."
Quite frankly, I didn't think a Borough Commander would be in the habit of cussing.
In the NY Post Thursday Sept. 16, page 10, is a article about the MTA will recommend building a Second Ave. subway line - from 125th to 63rd streets - as part of its new capital spending plan, a top official told the NY Post on Wednesday Sept. 15.
Below the above article is a second article about a tragedy that is a nudge away on the Lexington Ave. line.
After the good people of SubTalk reads both articles your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The interesting thing about the public hearing is that most people do not know that the turn at 63rd was part of the original plan. In fact most people do not know what the track configuration is down there.
The media is really negligent here. The reporters know nothing. There should be a map.
The New York Times (National Edition), on Friday, Sept 10, had an Editorial *supporting the building of the Second Ave Subway*. To not do it now would be foolhardy.
(I'll dig it out again for more info; I don't have it here at work).
The media is really negligent here. The reporters know nothing.
My contact with reporters goes back a bit--my first paid writing ever was for the NY Journal-American.
I don't want to paint with too broad a brush but I think it would fair to say that the great majority of reporters are better at winnowing out facts in the here and now and presenting them in a relevant manner than in having a decent factual (or historical) base on which to interpret those facts.
I would expect the editors, though, to have more basic knowledge than is often apparent in media reporting.
I have a question about the operation of the lines in NYC that have two local tracks and a single center express track. AIUI, the express tracks carry "tidal" express services (to Manhattan AM, from Manhattan PM).
What happens to these trains when they reach their Manhattan terminals? Do they reverse and run back (say, from Manhattan in the AM) as locals, or how does it work? If they do, doesn't that cause a really large number of trains on the one track in the non-peak direction?
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
It would, if they did it more, which they don't. Many trains lay over in lower Manhattan, where there are a few underground yards and unused tracks. Many trains returning from Manhattan may go to yards in different areas as well.
-Hank
On some lines the opposite peak direction gets more local service than the peak does. You see this on the Concourse, Flushing, White Plains Rd. and Pelham lines. Some people on the Concourse line actually take an uptown local to the nearest express stop than they do with the Manahattan bound local because there is double the local service in that direction.
In general, lines which have center track express service don't run maximum service on both the local and express tracks--i.e., each of the local and express tracks run less frequently than the basic minimum 2 minute headway.
On the old Manhattan els, trains in the non-rush direction used to operate under visual rules (not signalled) so they could run closer together. This was slow, but it worked.
Paul Matus wrote:
In general, lines which have center track express service don't run maximum service on both the local and express tracks--i.e., each of the local and express tracks run less frequently than the basic minimum 2 minute headway.
Thanks to all for the responses. It sounds like different approaches are used on different lines -- some lines run less non-peak-direction local service to accommodate the additional trains, others store trains in available locations. (I would never have thought that there were storage locations available to store very many trains in lower Manhattan!) Or perhaps combinations of these approaches.
On the old Manhattan els, trains in the non-rush direction used to operate under visual rules (not signalled) so they could run closer together. This was slow, but it worked.
Did they do this because they just hadn't gotten around to signaling the lines (so to speak), or were there advantages with this kind of operation? It seems that the advantage of being able to run trains closer together would be outweighed by the slower speed, and that the capacity would be more or less the same per unit of time. Of course, that's me guessing off the top of my head. :-)
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
[ visual running on Manhattan el locals ]
I'm not familiar with he way signalling was handled on those lines.
The point of the close together "visual rules" running in the non-peak direction was simply to move the equipment the best they could. South Ferry terminal had to handle four elevated lines, so they had to stuff as much equipment in there in the p.m. and move it out of the way as fast as they could in the a.m.
If this slowed down service for the counter-peak passengers, it's just the way it was.
Here's something I just thought about while reading
this thread. From pictures and videos I've seen of
the Third Av El it
was a 3 track line. I assume the Express ran from
the Bronx AM & to the Bronx PM. However in
Manhattan there is no set rush hour flow. Loads of
people I'm sure got on at South Ferry from the S.I.
Ferry Terminal and I'm sure thousands of people got
on at Park Row from Bklyn trains. I'm also sure that
an equal amount of people went downtown from the
Bronx and Grand Central. So how did they determine
which was rush hour flow and which was reverse??
The
SARGE-my homepage
href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/trainbuff
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href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/color.htm
l">try this color quiz
href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/leg.html"
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Good point. But it was southbound a.m., northbound p.m. nothwithstanding.
keying red automatic signals in those days wasn't outlawed as it is today. If you're keying a red signal today without permission from Control you are TOAST.
>> It sounds like different approaches are used on different lines -- some lines run less non-peak-direction local
service to accommodate the additional trains, others store trains in available locations. (I would never have thought that there were storage
locations available to store very many trains in lower Manhattan!) Or perhaps combinations of these approaches.
You can look at the track maps on this site to get a sense of where trains can be laid up. They also make another practical point about the headways on three-track lines: almost all the three-track lines merge into two tracks before entering Manhattan, so if both tracks had two-minute spacing there would be backups at the switch points. (The Concourse line is the only exception I can think of.)
On a related note, the most recent subways-to-LaGuardia proposal I've read about calls for an extension of the Astoria el (N) to the airport, using the third track for express service. How would 'peak direction' be determined for airport service? Or do I misunderstand the plan?
Probably the middle track would be in both directions such as the single tracked LIRR lines. Its not too much of a distance between Queensborough Plaza and Ditmas Blvd and I'm sure there would be long headways for airport Express service.
If they were to extend the line, how would they add a third track through the Ditmars Blvd. station, which is directly under a portal of the NY Connecting RR (Hell Gate Bridge approach)? A flyover track over the NYCRR??? Elimination of the station with a track in the location now occupied by the platform? A diverting track under another portal requiring housing and business demolition? Or just divert the LGA line off at Astoria Blvd. down the Grand Central Parkway right-of-way eliminating the Ditmars station or leaving it as a stub (with resultant inefficient alternating service)??
Seems to me that any extension is likely to be only two tracks.
So you use the third track from Quuenboro Plaza to Ditmars for express service to and from the airport, running the airport trains to and from the airport on the extended local tracks North of Ditmars, terminating the regular local N trains at Ditmars. What could be simpler?
Tim: To clear up some misconception here with one exception all the three track lines with express service actually merge into two tracks before entering the Central Business District so in reality we only have a two track line in each direction. Some trains do layup in Manhattan but there are limited to a few layup tracks and no yards. IRT 2,4,5 all run certain trains out to New Lots Av in Brooklyn to layup at the Livonia Yard. These trains are later placed back into service before the pm rush.
The lines which have three tracks express service are
IRT #6 Pelham Line from Parkchester to 3 Av then merge into two tracks.
IRT #5 White Plains Rd from East 180 St to 3 Av/149 St then merge into two.
IRT #4 Jerome Av from 149 St to 125 St then merge(actually just south of 138 St)
IRT #7 Flushing from Main St to Queensboro Plaza the merge into two.
BMT J from Myrtle Av to Marcy Av then two
IND Concourse from Bedford Park Blvd to 145 ST. This is the exception where a three track main expands into a four track main.
The center or express track provides a somewhat faster ride and splits up loading factors but only increases service marginally.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How come the "J" doesn't go express between Bway Junction and Myrtle anymore?? It used to. I guess I should be glad since I work by the Gates Av station.
Because there's no Broadway Brooklyn Local to cover the local service any more.
Maybe I'm wrong, but wasn't it alternating local & express like the "7" line years ago? (Both coming to or fro 168 St, Jamaica)
Actually what you had was skip-stop service. When the KK was discontinued J's ran alternate skip-stop from Jamaica to Eastern Pkwy, then express to Essex since there was a K local starting at Eastern Pkwy. When the K was discontinued the skip-stop was extended to Myrtle with regular express service beyond that and the M's providing local service. Once the Z came into the picture it also ran skip-stop from Jamaica Center to Myrtle then exp.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The M and the J could both provide the express service. Except, the M will run to Mytle then to Metropolitan Avenue. While the J will run express to Broadway Eastern Parkway. Meanwhile, the Z will operate as local.
This will reduce delays on the M, J, and Z lines. Plus, provide passengers with an alternative to the A and C lines to Downtown Manhattan.
If you wanted to run the M express from Myrtle to Marcy, the Manhattan-bound trains would cross the Broadway el local track at grade at Myrtle to get to the express track; that would increase AM delays.
It does seem inelegant to run skip-stop between Bway Jct and Myrtle, but the TA may actually have a reason why it's more efficient than switching onto the express track. I can't imagine the time saving for passengers on the express trains as more than two minutes--it's not a big distance--and, as already noted, three-track operation doesn't really allow for increased service; so, whether for the benefit of Bushwick passengers or the convenience of avoiding an extra switch, skip-stop to those four stations might be a better way to run a railroad.
No one has addressed the comfort factor. A train that stops and starts more frequently is less comfortable to ride than a train that holds to a relatively constant speed. Granted that this is a lower priority than speed and throughput, it should still be born in mind in case it becomes a close call as to how to set up a system.
I believe another factor leading to its discontinuation was the service reliability that suffered due to the merge with the M. When I went to PS 86 in Ridgewood in 1963-1965, there were many times during the AM rush that the '15' Broadway-Brooklyn Express and '14' Broadway Brooklyn Local would both be backed up just sitting and waiting for the '10', Myrtle Avenue Express to clear the switches in both directions. I was late for school many times but I enjoyed watching this switching action from the "railfan" window.
Doesn t the Lower Level at 145th Merge from 3 to 2 and then to 6 when it gets on the upper level?
Not sure of exactly where the tracks merge, but there are only 4 tracks by the time you get as far South as 125th street. So what you really have is not 3 tracks becoming 4, it's 3 tracks merging with other tracks to share 4.
The tracks merge just north of 135th St. in area known as Homeball Alley.
What is so facinating about this arrangement is that:
1) from 145th Street (lower level center track) into 135th Street on the D line is pretty fast.
2) from 145th Street (lower level local tracks) into 135th Street on the D line is pretty slow.
3) from 125th Street to 145th Street lower level center track is pretty fast.
4) from 125th Street to 145th Street lower level local tracks is pretty slow.
You can find this out by riding the B or D lines. The B leaves 145th Street on the local track, while the D leaves the center track. The D, for some reason, always make it to 135th Street.
By the way, the local track descends quicker, while the center track seems to take it's time.
Is there anywhere on this website that explains this complex arrangement.
N Broadway
We have Track Maps but nothing in three dimensions and nothing that attempts to cover the largely subjective and opinionated topic of how fast a piece of track may or may not be.
The three Concourse Line tracks connect as follows : C1 connects to A1 and A3, C3-4 connects to A3 and A4, C2 connects to A2 and A4.
The extra tracks at 135 St forms as follows north of 135 St, A6 between A2 and A4, A5 between A1 and A3.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Look at NYC Subway Track Maps for a full set of track maps - they'll answer almost all track questions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
One of the factors that effects trains per hour on a given track is the dwell time in the stations. This is solely a function of passenger loading. In the off-peak direction outside of Manhattan, trains are seldom, if ever loaded like they are in the peak direction and the doors can open and close quickly. The current extremely high passenger loading on the Lexington Avenue Express is what limits the trains to 24 to 24 per hour.
Trains can and have operated in the past at more than 30 trains per hour, that is less than a 2-minute interval, on a given track.
Before WWII the Berlin S-Bahn ran on 90-second intervals.
Well, you know who made the trains run on time.
I thought that was Il Duce in Italy they said that about.
I have always liked how the M heading to
Metropolitan Ave just crosses over all three tracks
after Myrtle Ave. It has some ego!! It's just a
nice bit of footwork to watch. Has an M ever gone
dead there and blocked all three tracks? Are there
any other cross-overs that are equally fascinating? I'm
also intrigued by the movement of trains south of
Franklin Av (Nostrand Junction) on the IRT.
Watching it from the front window, it seems like a
well orchestrated sliding of trains from one track
to the other right in front of each other.
This subject was discussed in depth about a month ago in a very long thread that lasted over a week called "Trains crossing at grade" or something like that. My favorite is just East of Mineola where the ancient diesels (reminds me of the Hooterville Cannonball) holds the modern electrics when it crosses the WB mainline track to begin its long pilgrimage to Oyster Bay.
By the way, getting back to your original subject, remember when the M had to wait before that turn for the ancient NB "Q" type to go by before the el was discontinued south of Bway???
Let me see if I have you right. Although I am old enough, I never really rode the old Myrtle Ave L. But are you saying that the trains would have to cross across all three tracks to proceed down to Jay Street?
No, they ran above like the structure still is now. What I meant was north of Bway the "M" and the "Q" types alternated, so if a "Q' was coming above, the "M" would have to wait at Mytrle until it was clear to go.
What width cars were the Myrtle El stations south of Broadway setup to take, I was under the impression that "Q" cars were 9' wide like IRT
equipment (the one at the transit museum needs gap filler platform extentions). If so how did they handle the mixture of equipment sizes north of Broadway?
Bill
They had raised gap fillers on the doorsill IIRC. There was still a large gap though. I only had the chance to ride the Q type once, and I didn't go down the old el, just the part that's still there.
[What width cars were the Myrtle El stations south of Broadway setup to take, I was under the impression that "Q" cars were 9' wide like IRT
equipment (the one at the transit museum needs gap filler platform extentions). If so how did they handle the mixture of equipment sizes north of Broadway?]
The width of the cars were approximately 9 feet like the IRT. The Q's operated on the 3rd Avenue Thru Express in Manhattan and the Bronx until 1955 and they had to work with IRT equipment. Many different B Division cars operated on the same line as the Q's north of Broadway.
Bill: When the Q types returned from exile they were fitted with short door extensions which partially bridged the gap. As the Q's had been placed on IRT Composite trucks there floor level was raised and this allowed the extensions to override the nine-foot wide platforms from Broadway to Bridge-Jay Sts.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Watching trains snaking into/out of/through Jamaica LIRR at rush hour has much of that appeal.
I don't know if a train has ever gone dead there, but curiously enough, they allow you to go 15mph over those switches. I think that's too fast. Some areas can handle a faster speed over a switch, such as 5 ave southbound on the F. 20 mph for that switch.
Did a train ever "die" coming into Bway-Myrtle? Yes. A number of years ago, before GOH, a 4 car shuttle of R42 cars died over the switch coming into the middle track. In the TA style of the kangaroo court, the motorman (no train operators yet!) received a written "Caution" into his record for not having his train under control!
And if you ask a bunch of TSS's or Superintendents what it means to have your train under control, you get a different answer each time.
That ain't right! How the heck can you NOT have your train under control if it dies on you?
Wayne
Every incident or delay gets written up and is charged to somebody. In that case, the train was checked and nothing was found wrong with the train. He was simply going too slow and gapped. They had to charge the late and turned trains to car equipment for a defective train or RTO for man error. That motorman getting the caution answers the question. Today: no more cautions: days off without pay!
Four words: everybody out and push!
so what they're saying is the train operator should have operated faster than the posted speed over the switches so that if the train dies its not BLOCKING the switches.
There is a 15 MPH sign there. If you go that speed, you won't gap.
Did a train ever "die" coming into Bway-Myrtle? Yes. A number of years ago, before GOH, a 4 car shuttle of R42 cars died over the switch coming into the middle track. In the TA style of the kangaroo court, the motorman (no train operators yet!) received a written "Caution" into his record for not
having his train under control!
Did the train actually fail or was it gapped? IMO, the TA was wrong if the train failed. Otherwise...
If it was a mechanical failure, the motorman would not have received the caution.
If it was a mechanical failure, the motorman would not have received the caution.
I thought so; your post (and the anti-TA diatribes which followed) seemed to imply otherwise. Thanks for clearing that up. :-)
CH.
sounds more like the 4 cars while crossing to the middle GAPPED and what was off the juice was needed to move the entire consist. Giving the motorman a warning doesn't sound warranted for a mechanical failure.
The Rogers Junction in Brooklyn is another bad crossover! Tuesday AM around 7am a train to Brooklyn went BIE over the swithces and as a result all Brooklyn bound 2,3,4,5 trains were turned at Nevins. Talk about a mess--thank goodness I did not work in Brooklyn. I can imagine the bedlam at Brooklyn IRT--no Brooklyn IRT--OUCH!
Is that also called Nostrand Junction? I just love looking out front window and wondering at how 2 southbound trains can glide through there without crashing. It's just cute the way they sort of slide over each other's track. Maybe I'm exagerrating, but it's a fun spot, but I guess not very much fun the other morning.
It really hampers things when the 5 express going to Flatbush has to momentarily switch over to the local track to get onto the Nostrand Ave line. It should be redesigned so that the Flatbush bound express doesn't share any trackage with the local bound for New Lots.
too much money to spend for a part time service
If you like grade crossings, check out Chicago sometime. There are only three crossings I can think of, but they are quite busy. One, at the corner of Wells and Lake, supposedly used to be the busiest rail junction in the world. I presume this was before the subways were built, so every train went through this junction. The beauty of it is that it is a diamond, with a large part of the trains going across the diamonds. Some trains do not cross the diamonds, but since the lines from each direction are two tracks, these movements can still involve grade crossings (though the routes through here are, I think, designed to minimize the need for those crossings.) I could spend hours watching the traffic through that crossing. Imagine being let into the tower that controls it!
Also, if you ride the Ravenswood Line (which goes through all three grade crossings!) you will encounter the other type of grade crossing: streets crossing the el tracks at grade.
Basically, anyone who reads this page who has not ridden the Ravenswood el should, right now, go to chicago and ride around on it a bunch.
Looking for one 75th anniversary token with dimond cut and subway car. "Bullseye" token with (Archer Ave Extension 12-88)And "Bullseye"with out "SJD"
Bob, I can help you, but please send me a private e-mail.
BTW, How about the old Express token ... have those too.
Mr t__:^)
two more inbound bilevels where spotted in bound at oak island nj. cab number was 5010
stay dry everybody
Before we are deluged, there is some type of construction taking place
on the concourse of the St. George terminal of the SI ferry---some type of office with the words "New York City Transit" seemingly beveled into the glass over the doorway---anyone know what this is about?
If it is possible, could you find a way to bring this subject up to our wonderful mayor when WCBS has it's next "Ask the Mayor" show? I didn't know what a nerve I would hit when I first posted on this subject, and this is the kind of "quality of life" problem Guiliani loves to eliminate. I will try and call him tomorrow when he does his show on WABC, assuming I can't get to work. If you can I would be much appreciated. The B train is completely out of control and something, anything needs to be done.
ChrisR, as many of our SubTalk colleagues know, I live (most of the time) in Boston... and commute to NYC when I work at WCBS one or two weekends per month. So I'm not there when Hizoner The Mayor is on-air. However, the station does have an email for submitting questions to Ask the Mayor, so give that a try!
Ahhhh, thanks. I'll send im a nice, long, rambling e-mail. He should be used to it. LOL
The emails sent to "Ask the Mayor" c/o the address I gave actually go to Rich Lamb, the WCBS reporter who is host of the show. He is (in my humble opinion) the best radio reporter in NYC.
Back in the days when all car radios were AM only I used to like to listen to WCBS after dark when it would come in here in the midwest.
"and the temperature in midtown Manhattan is__"
On the buses here we don't like to put much more that about 65 or 70 High School kids on a bus. A train full has got to be a lot to handle.
Those 50,000-watt AM stations carry well at night. I'll bet you may have even picked up KOA from Denver. It's known as "the 50,000-watt voice of the West."
My name is Rebecca Gardyn and I'm a freelance writer in NYC. I'm doing research for a story I'd like to do on the slow but inevitable death of the NYC subway token at the merciless hands of the mighty Metrocard. I was hoping to get some information, stories, personal reflections, opinions to help me round out the piece.
Is there anyone out there who is saving tokens because they think they may be worth something down the line? or is their worth mostly sentimental?
Specifically, I'm interested in talking to folks who collect tokens and could attest to their potential worth as collectors items if and when they are phased out. I'd also like to talk to those who just feel that tokens are important 'symbols' of NY culture...
Basically, anyone who has anything to say on the subject, I'd love to hear from you. Please email me at rgardyn@hotmail.com --
Thanks in advance for your help.
All the best,
Rebecca Gardyn
The American Vecturist Assoc. has been around since 1948. They're a goup of "token" collectors from all across the US. Monthly they publish a newsletter, "The Fare Box".
Contact John M. Coffee, Jr. at PO Box 1204 - Boston MA 02104 or myself at my e-mail address.
There are also a number of groups that are interested non currency coin & tokens, e.g. TAMS, Token & Medal Society who publishes a "Journal". Or NJES, NJ Exonumia Society who publishes (infrequently) the JERSEYana.
Mr t__:^)
The MTA has emergency advisory links on the homepage stating that everything with the subway is A-OK.
They sure grab your attention when you see them though.
Does anyone know the phone number to the NYC transit measuem at Grand Central. I try to reach them but their site is down and there is no link from the NYC transit measuem has no link. Operator was no help.
Phone number to the one in Brooklyn was down.
As a matter of fact I have a page from a notepad of theirs right here on my desk. 212-878-0106 is their number.
-Dave
Thanks Dave
Is any special event being planned for October 27 for the 95th anniversary of the IRT?
9/16/99
Not that I am aware of. 95 years of the Interborough and the Low-V's are sidelined with electrical problems. Nothing major,but something should be done. At least fixed ,revenue runs on the Grand Central shuttle. Or maybe nobody cares.
Bill Newkirk
I feel old, I remember cutting school and riding the specials they
ran between 59st and Brooklyn Bridge on the #6 for the 75th anniversary
Bill
You feel old? I rode the Myrtle Avenue EL with those famous Q cars.
I was wondering if there will be a trip to see the remains of the 155th Street Shuttle? Our Webmaster has some photos I took in 1987 of some of the site.
Can anyone post those photos of the remnants of the shuttle for all of us to see and download? I too am fascinated by what's left of this line, what's up with a walking tour? As long as I can get off that day, count me in!
Gimme Dem old time subaway cars, they're good enough for me!
Mike H
I will scan Mr. T.C's pictures this weekend. But for now, Bill Palter beat us to it and has some of his own on his site (both 3rd and 9th ave. el remnants)
http://www.palter.org/~subway/3rd-ave-now.html
Are there any pictures of the tunnel section? I was not able to
find a good angle to photograph it from...
Bill
Does anyone know where I can get an old track map of the NYW&B Railway? Or, at least a regular map of its original route?
There's a route map among the stuff here on the site, see here. If any one DOES have a trackmap I'd be happy to digitize it for the site.
Dave: I have a trackmap. Will mail it to you. Please e-mail me your mailing address.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, I would if you put it in your posts. :-) If you don't want to divulge it here just drop ME an email :)
Dave: My apologies. It still goes to show how little I understand about the internet. Some of the crew says that they can pick it up from my posts,which I don't understand. In any event its RedbirdR33 @ hotmail.com
Larry
It's this site you haven't quite figured out yet. If you want your address in all your posts, just insert it in the place provided -- on the line immediately below where you put your name -- under "Post a New Response." The site will then include your address in all subsequent posts, just like it does your name.
Why was it called the NYW&B? Did it ever get as far as Boston?
www.forgotten-ny.com
No, it didn't - but that didn't stop the original promoters from dreaming!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was nicknamed "The NY, Westchester and Back". Brian
9/17/99
Another nickname for the NYW & B I heard was the "Roger Arcara Railroad"
Miss you Roger,R.I.P.
Bill Newkirk
It got as far as White Plains where Nordstrom is located and Port
Chester where it ran from New Rochelle next to the New Haven RR
tracks.
There is a track map of the NYW&B in the center of the original edition of Westchester's Forgottem Railway
How about a map showing local streets in Westchester and the precise route of the NYW&B with respect to these streets. Does such a map exist? I know where some remains of the NYW&B in Westchester are, including a still extant and now unused overpass it once used in Pelham, NY, but just how the different pieces connected isn't clear. The route map on this site is too much of a general overview to be of much use in tracing the exact route.
One of the 1912 maps in Railway Age article shows streets.
However, you would want a 1937 or so street map to see the later developments and the railway. Later editions would not show the railway. However, you can superimpose the line on later maps.
Check Ebay, Collectables, key in Westchester. I sometimes see vintage maps, post cards, and photos for sale.
Is it the weather?? I've never seen so few postings on this forum in a LONG, LONG time!!!!
Some may not have electricity, others may have lost phone service, some may be busy pumping water out of their basements. We were very lucky here in south-central PA in that we only got 3.1 inches of rain and a lot of wind. Towns just 40 miles east of us got up to 10.0 inches of rain and are dealing with flooding and power outages. This has been a very bad tropical storm depending on where you live.
We came through it OK, both here in NJ and at our home in North Carolina. The hurricane's path turned far enough east that our older son, who chose to ride out the storm in our NC house, reported that the only damage was a couple of loose shingles, one big tree next to the house (but it fell the other way), and a couple more trees back in the woods. The power has been out there for nearly 28 hours, though, with no word on how many more days before it's restored (being out in the country we are always the last ones fixed). Here in NJ a big limb bounced off the roof of my van but only scratched the paint, no dent, and another limb tore off a section of guttering on the end of the house. All in all, a very fortunate outcome to what could have been much more serious.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse,
Sounds as if you fared pretty well too. You have mentioned North Carolina several times in posts. What part of the state are you originally from? I had to evacuate from the southern tip of the Outer Banks several weeks ago because of Hurricane Dennis. I really like the area down there except when hurricanes chase me away.
Karl B
My aunts, one in Georgia and one in Virginia, my father's sisters, are both ok.
They both called me on Thursday night Sept 16, and said they are ok and there houses have no damage done to them at all from Hurricane Floyd.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Charlie Muller,
You didn't say how you made out with the storm in Brooklyn. Did Kings county escape the wrath of Floyd?
Karl B
Bedford Park Boulevard is in the Bronx. Anyway, I'm in Brooklyn, and I must say, I saw NOTHING. Just another rainy day, trees swaying a little from time to time. BORING! At least a boring storm doesn't seem to do much damage.
I've been gone from Brooklyn too long. I saw Bedford and thought Bedford Ave and just assumed Brooklyn.
Thanks for straightening me out and updating me on my old home.
Karl B. Bedford Park Blvd of the Bronx made out ok from Floyd. Just a lot of rain and wind. Nothing fell and all is well in my section of the Bronx.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd of the Bronx.
Charlie M.
It sure was stupid of me to think Bedford Ave when I read Bedford Park Blvd. I used to go to church at Bedford Ave and Wilson St so I got to know the Marcy Ave el station very well. In my day it was the scariest station on the system. I think it was the reason I have had a fear of heights all my life. I'm glad that the Bronx survived Floyd too, even though I tried to move you to Brooklyn.
Karl B
Karl B. thats alright. I don't mind being moved to Brooklyn, I like Brooklyn. I have a few friends there and it has a good park called Prospect Park for fishing.
Charlie Muller of Bedford ParK Blvd.
Chaarlie Muller of Bedford Parl Blvd: Since you seem to be the big cahoona of the Bronx for this website, maybe you can tell me two things about your borough. One---In what area is Arthur Avenue and is it still an Italian section. Two--the Fordham area. What part of the Bronx is that and is that still an Italian section? I spent a little time in the Bronx last month and don't know if I was close to those areas or not. And embarrasingly, I didn't ask.
Fred Peritore, AKA Sea Beach Man. Arthur Ave is still an Italian section. It right near the Bronx Zoo on Fordham Road and Southern Blvd.
Arthur Ave is also near Fordham University. You can take the #2 or #5 train that goes near the Bronx Zoo. Ask the conductor what station to get off at for the above answer.
The Fordham Road area, in which i am two stops north of on the D Concourse line and #4 train Jerome Ave line, from University Ave near the Major Deegan to the Metro-North Station wher the 3rd Ave El Fordham Station used to be is all shopping stories. East of the Metro-North station, as you face it and West of St Nicholis of Tolitine Church to the Major Deegan Expressway is all residential areas.
I hope this answers your question.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd Bronx.
Hey Charlie, although I always lived on Long Island, I used to take the "D" to Bedford Pk Blvd to get the shuttle bus to Yonkers Raceway. I can still hear the compressors on the laid up R1-9's on the center track while waiting for a train back!!! Alot of times I had no money because Carmine Abbatiello, Lucian Fontaine, Del Insko and the Dancer and Filion Brothers did not do the right thing for me!!!
Jeffrey Rosen, you can also take the #4 train to Bedford Park Blvd to get the #20 bus Bee line to get to Yonkers Raceway. It drops me and you right in front of Yonkers Raceway. I do not think there is a shuttle bus to Yonkers Raceway. I may be wrong though. The people you also mentioned did me wrong, but also helped me win some races.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd Bronx.
No, there wouldn't be a shuttle bus anymore. Not for both patrons!!!
Charlie, do you know if St Phillip Neri church is rebuilt yet? Also, is that diner on Bedford Park Blvd off Jerome Ave still open? They had excellent food there.
Mike, the diner is still there. It does not go by the name of Rainbow any more. It is called The Bedford Park Diner where the Rainbow used to be on Bedford Park Blvd and Jerome Ave. It is open i believe 24 hours a day. I am not sure, but when you go there ask what hours they are open.
St Philip Neri Church is still being rebuilt since the fire on Sunday June 20 something 1997. It is about a quarter of the way done. The insurance company is giving the pastor and the parish a hard time.
Something about overoay on the insurance. Their are going on their 4th insurance company, so ther is no working being done. It will be a while before it is done. Me and my younger brother and two sisters were baptistzied and confirmation, 1st communion and graduated from St Philip Neri School. Me and my younger brother graduated in 1971 fron SPN, i was left back one grade, i was to young to graduate with the class of 1970. My two sisters in the mid to late 70's graduated from there.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx
Thanks for the info.
[Arthur Ave is still an Italian section. It right near the Bronx Zoo on Fordham Road and Southern Blvd.]
It's much more of an active neighborhood than is Little Italy in Manhattan, which is really nothing more than a couple blocks of crappy restaurants.
Peter: I saw that for myself. Chinatown is encroaching on Little Italy from all directions. But you are not completely correct. De Nico or Da Nico is one hell of a restaurant. I ate there four times and the portions were big and delicious. Since I took my big meal in the afternoon, lunch is much less expensive than dinner. I was told that is Guiliani's favorite restaurant. I will, however, eat up in Arthur Avenue when I return to NY------unless, that is, New Yorkers are stupid enough to elect hilarious Hillary to the Senate. Then I will boycott New York for good---subways and all
Fred, although I don't want to start a political thread here (look what happened earlier to the labor thread) but I must say in answer to your last post, Hillary is by far the lesser of two evils. The only possible good that could possibly come out of a Rudy senatorial seat is that at least he wouldn't be mayor anymore. Then maybe I'd be able to feed my family and pay my mortgage.
Charlie: When I get back to NY I will take the 2 or 5 train and sample some of those less publicized but great Italian restaurants I heard about. I knew it wasn't in the South Bronx. That place is even worse than I heard, but would you believe that in the late 40's the Grand Concourse was a real classy place. I mean top notch. Whatthehellhapppened?
Fred Peritore AKA Sea Beach Man, what happened is the flight of the good people of the city to go to the suburbs when the neighborhoods went bad with drugs. There were also fires in the south bronx when the landlords would not upkeep their property. Now the good folks fled to live in the burbs with metro-north stations get flooded when it rains heavy like when floyd came on wed sept 16, and thur sept 17.
If everyone stays and try to keep their neighborhood good the south bronx and other bad parts of ny would still be good.
Charlie Muller Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
It looked to me like your section was still a pretty good area to live in. I hope I am right. But your're right when you say everyone has to pitch in and do their part. There are still some great neighborhoods in the city. I know of four or five in Brooklyn alone, and you have to be pretty rich to live in Manhattan. Quenns must have the greatest melting pot of any area in the US, but the new immigrants seem to be doing fine and the neighborhoods in Elmhurst and Woodside look ok. Tell me about Riverdale since you're the big Cahoona of the Bronx. Do any subway traverse the region or is it isolated. I hear it's a real swanky place.
The 1/9 train ends at the southwest corner or Riverdale. Riverdale is very hilly and has many winding and dead-ending streets. The MNRR is along the riverside and has stations at Riverdale and Spuyten Duyvil.
Well, the 1/9 train really isn't in the heart of Riverdale. Most people consider that area to be Kingsbridge Heights. I guess if you want to get technical, it might really be Riverdale.
I should also add that most of the South Bronx isn't "bad", just kind of seedy in certain parts. I think some people get scared when they go into a neighborhood that isn't White and automatically assume that means it's bad. The South Bronx is more prosperous than it's been since the early 1970s when it was just turning "bad". I actually feel relatively safe walking along Hunts Point Ave., whereas just 5 years ago I wouldn't dare have walked around there. There are really doing well in rebuilding and I, too soon hope to be part of the rebuilding process.
Another thing: A lot of the buildings in the South Bronx were burnt out not by landlords to collect insurance,but by residents who set fires in ovens and garbage pails to keep warm in the winter due to the laclk of maintainence in their buildings.
To get to the Bronx Zoo, get off the #2/5 train at East Tremont Ave., walk a few blocks and the entrance is right there. Another way is to get off at Pelham Pkwy and take the BX12 bus across to Fordham Rd/Southern Blvd. Arthur Ave. can also be easily reached via the BX12 bus. If you want to go to Botanical Gardens on the 2/5 line, get off at Allerton Ave. and walk along side Mosholu Parkway and around the corner and the entrance is right there. It's good to know short cuts.
Like Charlie Muller said, the Arthur Ave. section (often called Belmont) is still an active Italian community with several Albanian and Latino families living there as well. Fordham Rd. from Third Ave. to about Webb Ave.is a great shopping district. This shopping district can be easily accessed via the BX12,15,and 22 buses running along Ford'm Rd. and with the Bx1 running via Concourse, and the BX41 & BX55 buses which run via Webster and Third Aves. The #60,61, & 62 Bee-Line buses (Westchester County) go to Fordham from White Plains and Port Chester and run via Boston & Fordham Rds.
I lived out in the very eastern end of Brooklyn and I'm not sure I ever visited Prospect Park. My parents took me someplace in Brooklyn when I was very young. I got to ride on a two seater paddleboat. Could that have been Prospect Park?
Prospect Park sounds about right. One of the lakes used to have paddleboats at least into the late sixties.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks Larry, My memory of it is so faint that I must have been real young so I would date my visit in the early to mid 1940's
Karl: I used to vist Prospect Park fairly often. They had a zoo which was run by the NYC Dept of Parks which to say the least was in deplorable condition. Its now run by the Bronx Zoo and is a marvelous place to vist.
I recall that after my first vist my friend and I went to the Lincoln Road entrance to the Prospect Park subway station. We paid the railroad clerk but instead of giving us a token he released the turnstile so we could pass through much like what is done in Philly today. The turnstile did not accept tokens'. Am I remembering this type of machine correctly.
We also took our first ride on the #7 Franklin Av Shuttle which in those days had three trains,each one composed of a three car B-Types.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, It's just too long ago or maybe I was too young to remember. I have no recollection of how we got there (it had to be public transit. my dad didn't drive). I have no memory of a zoo either. I only remember those paddle boats. They were apparently what made the big impression on me. I must have been 5 or 6 years old at the time which would have put it just before the start of WW-2. This would have been when the fare was still only a nickel. I'm sorry I can't help you. but it was only one visit and I was just too young.
Karl B
As a youngster of maybe 5 or 6 I recall my folks taking me and my brother to a place called "Freedom Land" which was sort of like an amusement park on par with Palisades Park prior to the arrival of things like Six Flags' "Great Adventure" (It originally belonged to Warner Bros. very briefly).
My brother claims that Co-Op City in the Bronx now occupies this location. Is this accurate?
Doug aka BMTman
Your brother is right according to the AIA guidebook. I don't know if it's okay to quote a sentence or two word for word, so I'll paraphrase. Out of nowhere, on marshy land, which was once the site of Freedomland, a group of government, union, and real estate developers dreamt the impossible dream. The authors felt that the dream could now be described as a coma. --- AIA Guide to NYC revised edition.
Yep, Co-Op City is on the grounds of Freedomland. I still have old home movies of the trip my parents took us there. It had the type of cable cars that the Bronx Zoo have now. They recreated the Chicago Fire every 1/2 hour!!! The really great thing about my parent's home movie was footage out the windshield while on either the Whitestone or Throggs Neck with all the cars of the period. IIRC whichever bridge we were on, the other was under construction, although I could be wrong.
Yeah, I have vivd memories of seeing a constant billowing of smoke from 'Freedomland'. I think we'd see two huge imposing smoke-stacks of the parks' entranceway from the highway as we approached from the Whitestone bridge (?)
Glad I'm not the only one who remembers this forerunner of "Great Adventure".
Doug aka BMTman
Freedomland---they served A&W Root Beer, it was the first time tried that brand. The only other things I remember is, that to get there, I had to ride a "new" subway (new to me), and that Roger Maris hit two homeruns that day, on his way to 61, so I was there in '61.
I remember going to Freedomland with my Dad. I remember riding on a train and all of a sudden masked cowboys came on board with guns drawn and I was absolutely freaked. I might have been about 4.
My other remembrance of Freedomland is, you guessed it, on a destination sign. Some years back, at the Broadway Limited shop, I bought a white on red sign, which was apparently from the series of early fishbowls to have a split front sign. Freedomland was one of the readings. The sign is fairly long and has readings from what I might characterize as MaBSTOA routes. I can offer a list, but not handy.
I went to Freedomland three times: once each in 1961, 1962 and 1963.
My best memory is an open trolley car they had running there.
Wayne
9/21/99
Common talk says that the 1964 World's Fair did in Freedomland. Any takers on this?
Bill Newkirk
The Whitestone Bridge was built first, for the 1939 World's Fair. The Throgs Neck Bridge opened, I believe, in 1961.
How About Steeplechase Park
Just out of curiosity, what was so scary about Marcy Ave station? I've been there and it was no big deal to me. BTW, are you familiar with the Annunciation Church at N. 5th and Havemeyer Sts? I've been there a number of times; in fact, my Saturday school was housed at their parish school for 20 years before it moved to Richmond Hill.
I think it was either Marcy or Hewes, that when trains rolled in and out it seemed like the station platform was rolling up and back. That's from maybe 35 years ago, when I began my tutoring career volunteering at the Williamsburg Settlement House.
I'm assuming that the station is much improved over what it was during WW-2. In those days it was an open wood platform with a handrail along the street side. The further you walked the platform, the narrower it got. If you walked to get on the first car of a six car Standard, the platform had narrowed to about four feet. My mother felt we still had to do this with snow and ice in mid winter. I expressed my concern as kids are known to do, and she told me to hold on to the rail, the rail had about a foot of play in it. I had the distinct impression that if anyone were to lean against the handrail, both the leaner and the rail would wind up down in the street. I grew to hate that station knowing that someday I would slip and that would be the end of me.
Marcy Ave. still had wooden platforms into the early 70s. I haven't been through that station since 1978, so I can't say what it's like now.
I can atteset to Jacksonville florida being OK as well just some broken tree limbs by my place , got really lucky here also
Home is in Franklin County, three miles east of the town of Bunn (population 325, including all the dogs and cats), fourteen miles SE of Louisburg (the county seat) and within shouting distance of the Nash County line going toward Spring Hope. Translation: about 35 miles ENE of Raleigh and 25 miles west of Rocky Mount (20 miles west of I-95). I'm not a native of the place, but we've lived there since early 1982 and before that in Garner, just southeast of Raleigh. We still own our home there; our older son, who is taking a semester/year/something off from Duke, is living there and working as the reporter/editor/etc. of the Nashville Graphic in Nashville, NC, and also reporting for the Franklin Times out of Louisburg, a somewhat larger rural paper under the same ownership. My wife gets back down there about once a month (although she hasn't been there since the end of July - the exception that proves the rule, I guess) for a week or so; I haven't had a chance to go home since last November. But when I was downsized by my former employer back in '94 I had to go where the money was, and that brought me to New Jersey in January '96. It's a place to live, and it is closer to real transit and transit museums, but it will never be home. I expect that when we retire we will relocate to the area south of Asheville, NC - I have family there and some property in the mountains bordered on two sides by Pisgah National Forest. We love the coast and had originally planned to relocate east, down on Pamlico Sound where I could breathe salt air and fish for flounder, but after Fran we decided that I could fish for trout instead (and besides, they're better eating) and be snowbound for four months each year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse,
I discovered a little island at the end of the outer banks in Hyde County through the reading of a book about 35 years ago. The book made the place sound so nice that we wanted to visit it. We made our first trip 30 years ago and loved the place, and have been going back ever since, although getting older has really cut down on the frequency of our trips. On our last trip we were there two days when we had to evacuate because of Dennis.
Funny Story Time: We spent almost a week in Dillard, Georgia some years ago, and just before we came home we found that we were actually staying in Macon County, North Carolina. It seems that their mailing address was Georgia but we were actually located in NC.
Karl B
North Carolina seems to have that kind of problem. North of us is Lake Gaston, which straddles the NC/Virginia border. There is a lengthy peninsula which extends from Virginia about four miles into North Carolina, but the only road access is from Virginia. The kids are bussed almost 40 miles, half of it in Virginia, to get to a school that is less than five miles by air from where they live. The residents have a Virginia mailing address and a Virginia area code, they shop in Virginia, and most if not all work in Virginia, but they pay taxes in North Carolina. Originally there was a bridge to the main part of NC but when Lake Gaston was enlarged many years ago (nearly 40, if I recall correctly) the water level rose considerably and the road was cut.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[We love the coast and had originally planned to relocate east, down on Pamlico Sound where I could breathe salt air and fish for flounder, but after Fran we decided that I could fish for trout instead (and besides, they're better eating) and be snowbound for four months each year.]
I really have to disagree ... about the fish, that is. Trout are okay if a little bony. But flounder? Ahhhhhhhhhh, they're among the tastiest of fish :-)
In the words of my cousin Bobby (who lives in Horse Shoe, NC), "you ain't never had a trout from this here branch or you wouldn't say that" (OK, so I'm putting words in his mouth, but that's what he'd say if he saw your comment).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a fondness for flounder myself. Not to mention orange roughy.
[I have a fondness for flounder myself. Not to mention orange roughy]
Hmmm, I've never had orange roughy, must try it sometime soon. Besides flounder, I also like bluefish and red snapper. The only fish that I don't like is cat fish, which is too bad because it's just about the only one that isn't absurdly expensive :-(
In my case it's treif so any catfish in a pond are safe from me - my worms know if the fish is kosher or not ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I personally like catfish. My father caught a couple of jumbo cats this summer - a 20-pounder one day, then a 30-pounder the very next day.
I spent most of last night watching TV and occasionally looking out the front door. I kept wondering when the storm was going to hit in full force, and finally figured out that it wasn't!
There was something quite amusing on TV. Periodically during the evening, the local cable operator, Cablevision, sent a "crawler" message across the bottom of the screen saying that they had extra crews on duty and would fix any service interruptions as soon as possible. This occurred on at least two cable stations, the Weather Channel and the Food Network. But I have only one question - if your cable was out, how in the world would you be seeing these messages in the first place??????????????
The same reasons they have braille at drive in windows, they sterilize needles for lethal injections, and why Kamikazi pilots wore helmets!!!!
Out here on Long Island, Floyd wimped out. Best gust came through West Babylon at 6:12pm, probably 50MPH. 3.5 inches of rain. I feel bad for the folks in New Jersey, Westchester, Rockland County.
Wayne
I feel like I should go out and play Lotto...MY electric never went out, my phone AND net service never blinked..this in spite of a large tree branch literally HANGING on our phone line for 12 hours! My basement is as dry as a bone...very,very lucky....Others up here arent nearly as lucky..about a 1/4 of the pop of Orange Co STILL is powerless. I hope some of the folks we haven't heard from (subway-buff, etc.),and their families are all right.......
Hey Lou: Sorry to hear some of your colleagues in the East got trampled on by Floyd. We don't have hurricanes here in California but all of us sweat out the possibility of the "Big One" as the humungous earthquake is called. They say it's coming within the next 35 years. Isn't there anyplace in the US that is safe from some natural catastrophe or surreal experience?
Also, some of our friends are reflecting upon the last year; it being Yom Kippur, and as such are unable to use their computers...
Yom Kippur is on Monday. In addition, I'm boycotting the ban on using electricity. I think that if the electricity is already flowing, I can direct it as I wish, which means, computer use is OK for me.
As I've said many times before on this site, to each his own! We're on the orthodox fringe of the Reform movement, if there is such a thing, but I certainly don't define using electricity as work - indeed, I just came back from the City (daughter came home from college for the weekend to attend the Law School Forum).
By the way, the electric is back on at our NC house - not sure when it came on as we haven't talked to our son yet, but the answering machine came on this time when we called.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now that we have defeated Floyd (I'd say we did) does anyone have any recollections of the Noreaster of December 12, 1992, that tied the metro area in knots? It was a nor-easter with near hurricane force, with over 5 inches of rain and snow. Lots of transit was knocked out as I recall. Took me 3 hours to get home.
It was actually Friday, December 11, and hit with no warning. "Occasional rain" had been forecast, just as "chance of flurries" had been forecast on February 9, 1969. My office evacuated around noon when leakage made using any electrical futile (not to mention hazardous).
I got a ride home, and even though the sun broke through by one p.m., it took two hours to get the seven miles from Long Island City to Shea Stadium. I finally bailed out on the Northern Boulevard bridge and walked past all the gridlock. From the looks of traffic and the overall panic level, one would think Godzilla was approaching. The next day, we received several inches of snow. This was the first of many indignities New York suffered the winter of 1992-93 and signalled an end the generally snow-free winters we had enjoyed for many years.
Luckily, yesterday's exodus was much smoother. The '7' to Flushing was running uneventfully at noon, and the biggest aggravations I had to endure was wet underwear. (No, it's not what you're thinking; this just illustrates the fact that the severity of the rain made a raincoat useless.)
[Now that we have defeated Floyd (I'd say we did) does anyone have any recollections of the Noreaster of December 12, 1992, that tied the metro area in knots? It was a nor-easter with near hurricane force, with over 5 inches of rain and snow. Lots of transit was knocked out as I recall. Took me 3 hours to get home.]
It did quite a bit of damage on eastern Long Island. IIRC, a number of houses on Westhampton Beach were destroyed and one or two new inlets were cut in the barrier island.
If I'm remembering the same storm you are, this was the one which knocked out PATH from Hoboken for a week (or more).
My most vivid memory from this storm is the look on the faces of the proprietors of the New York Waterway ferry from Hoboken to the World Financial Center. Until that time, the ferry had been a sleepy little service which was probably losing money. During this period, the line for the ferry snaked back and forth through the Hoboken station waiting area. Frequently, arriving NJT trains were held outside the station because there was no room for discharged passengers.
Normally, you gave the ticket booth agent $2 for a ticket which you then gave to the boat attendant upon boarding. For the week or so that the PATH was out, the ferry changed their collection scheme to be 3 guys collecting $2 apiece and tossing the cash into those 50 gallon grey plastic garbage cans. A fourth guy would emerge from the ticket booth to replace the full cans of cash with empty ones. I can only imagine what the pile of cash inside the ticket office looked like.
Once PATH service resumed, many new ferry riders never went back to the PATH train -- and I have heard that the ferry service has been profitable since then.
Chuck (CTG)
My brother-in-law takes that ferry to work today. He says it's a nice way to unwind.
Ugh, an absolute nightmare. I was stuck on an N train at Pacific Street for over an hour before I fnally got out and walked over the the Lafayette Ave. IND (which was still running). Then I had to wait over an hour for a J train a ENY, until they finally said that you had to use a shuttle bus.
IIRC, flooding knocked out the signal system.
Ferries from Staten Island weren't running that AM, there were shuttle bused over the Verrazano to 95 th St. I took the R ( I guess) then found out there was some delay or problem, and wound up getting off at 9th Street and taking the IND to Fulton st, I think. I don't recall a problem that PM.
I was in a car, unfortunately, heading toward DC for a family affair. It tooks us hours to get to Staten Island and then they closed the Outerbridge Crossing right in front of us.
The lesson of that Noreaster is wait it out in the office, don't try to go home. The radio announced that one by one train lines were shutting down due to flooding. The F was one of the few left running. With a wife barely coping with a baby at home, I didn't feel like spending the night in the office. So I left for home in the teeth of the thing.
I walked up to East Broadway, since the A/C was out, getting soaked and battered. One B, D, F, etc. after another was crawling through, packed with people. I squeezed on one, and could barely breath. It made it to Jay, then went out of service. No additional trains arrived, and the platform grew overloaded.
So I went outside in the teeth of the thing and boarded a packed B41 bus, then walked across Prospect Park in the howling wind and pelting rain. It took four hours to get home.
An hour later it was my normal travel time, and the subways were fixed up and back to running normally. Those who left at the regular time cruised home.
I think the TA learned from this disaster -- in bad weather, people leave early, and you have to start the rush hour early. That probably helped during Floyd.
[The lesson of that Noreaster is wait it out in the office, don't try to go home ... I think the TA learned from this disaster -- in bad weather, people leave early, and you have to start the rush hour early. That probably helped during Floyd]
Waiting helped during Floyd as well. By all accounts, Penn Station had that Fall of Saigon ambiance from before noon until about two pm. I got there shortly after two, when it was still busy but not the madhouse it had been earlier. I found that the next Ronkonkoma train with a Medford connection wasn't until 3:55, so as it had stopped raining I went outside and walked around for a while (and watched that smoky fire off Times Square for a while - boy, did it stink!) Anyway, the 3:55 train to Ronkonkoma was no more than a third full, a vast improvement I'm sure over the noontime cattle cars.
What were the routes of the different els in lower Manhattan (Below, lets say Houston) I know the routes in midtown, the 6th turned onto 53rd to 9th Av and the 2nd Av went over the 59St Bridge but not sure about lower Manhattan. I have a video, the Vanishing El with great footage of the 3rd Av through Chinatown, the split between the S.Ferry & Park Row Lines, footage along the East River and the S.Ferry Terminal. Did the 3rd go alongside the FDR or over Water Street???
Also, does anyone know of any remnants of any of the Els in Manhattan?? Any structure by South Ferry??
By the way, as a sergeant in Bed/Stuy I'm always travelling on Lexington Av & I'm always looking for remnants of that El. Drives my drivers nuts!!! Have not found anything yet, although every day I see the trackless Myrtle between Bway & Lewis. I don't even think the city realizes they left that one block stretch up!!!
The 3rd Avenue El ran along Water Street and curved by South Ferry and ended there. Brian
How about the 6th, 9th, & 2nd Av Els? Anybody know?
The lower end of the Ninth followed Greenwich St to South Ferry. The Sixth rejoined it below Houston. The Second and Third shared the structure over South St. and also had a branch to a terminal near City Hall. This in turn connected to the BRT Brooklyn Bridge Terminal. (Pedestrians but no track)
A branch of the Second also joined the Third at 129th St.
Was it South St or Water St?? The FDR is over South Street.
Neither. Pearl Street.
Pearl Street, IIRC, was the original waterfront street on the East River, then (as the shoreline was built out) Front Street and now South Street.
Oops, forgot the aptly named Water Street.
If I remember correctly from my old hacking days (the 79's) Pearl Street becomes Water Street.
Both are parallel, Pearl is actually longer. But, at intersting matter is that Pearl takes a jog at Fulton to Water. Between State and Fulton, Pearl is narrow and Water is wide. Then, one must turn on Fulton to reach the 5 way intersection of Fulton, Water and Pearl. From there, Pearl is wide until it turns away to Centre Street, while Water is narrow and ends at the Brooklyn Bridge, it used to go through what is now a housing project. Pearl used to end on Broadway before Federal Plaza was built.
Don't forget about the famous Contes Slip S curve.
Water Street used to be as narrow below Fulton as it is between Fulton and City Hall. It was widened out after the els were torn down in the years following World War II. It was widened in an effort to revive the downtown area and attract more businesses to the East River side of Lower Manhattan.
Surprising as that now seems, the area was pretty shoddy up until the 1960s, and the Second Ave. M-15 bus went down Pearl to Hanover Square, then followed the old el's S-curve route to South Ferry.
Hey Sarge, somewhere in my memory I think the piece of the Myrtle Ave eL that is still up is because it housed either switching or electrical equipment vital to the rest of the structure. If I'm wrong, I'm sure I'll be corrected. I just thought, it would be fun to have around here, a guy like Johnny, the shoe shine guy, from the Police Squad episodes, who knew everything, and for money would produce blue prints of that structure. Paul
9/17/99
Paul,
That section was left up because of a now decommissioned substation that carried power to the "el" structure. That's the only reason. I heard a rumor years ago that the reason they left it up that far was for the structure to act as an "anchor" for the whole complex. That's what I heard,and since that section isn't bothering anybody,it'll probably remain up for years. The original tracks were up there until recently,but were removed because kids were walking the tracks.
Bill Newkirk
I do not see a substation between Bway & Lewis nor do I see any connection from the structure to anything now. By the way, I used to tell my co-workers that I rode on that el all the way to Jay Street past Flatbush but I stopped telling 'em that 'cause I couldn't take the "age" comments anymore!!!
I mostly gave up on unsolicited "I remember when" comments when I saw Henry Fonda in "On Golden Pond."
He was buying some gas and staring at the pump prices and telling the youngun' about remembering when gas was 6 cents a gallon or something like that.
The kid at the pump said nothing but gave him a very effective "yeah, yeah, old man" look.
One of my daughters has just come to the realization that I was born "in the first half of the 20th century" and next year will be "the first half of the 21st century" which, she calculates, will then make me 100 years old, "or close enough."
Hey Jeff,
Some other things not to talk about to the troops:
1. Blue Ink (I got stuck with a ton of blue pens, anyone interested?)
2. Bullet pouches, blued revolvers, non +P ammo.
3. Leather jackets (hated it, no elastic on the bottom, wind blew right up your back) & the one and only Choker! you could wear anything under it!
4. Built-in radios in the RMPs
5. Green gloves!
Oh well, just some things to make me realize I'm from the Jurassic era of the NYPD! Back to meal, no command!
Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me.
Mike H
Built in Radios are back. We have too in the cmd. Can get any frequency in the city!!!
9/18/99
Jeff'
I haven't been in the that neighborhood by car in a while,not tempted to walk down there and find out for myself. Perhaps the substation building was demolished?
Bill Newkirk
(Going downtown)
The 2nd turned east on 23rd, then 1st Ave. to Division St. into Chatham Square, where it crossed and joined the 3rd/
On the 3rd--3rd Ave. becomes The Bowery into Chatham Sq. junction with the 2nd. One branch down Park Row to City Hall. The other branch down Pearl Street to the famous Coentes Slip curve and approaching South Ferry from the east.
The 6th and 9th stayed separated untl Battery Park, not like the 6th and 8th joining at W4 today.
The 6th turned east at 3rd Street then south on West Broadway. 6th Avenue (the street) did not run through to Church, like nowadays. It ended at W3rd. (7th also didn't run through to Varick--that why you have "7th Ave. South."
The 9th came down Greenwich (the original elevated route in Manhattan) to join the 6th just north of Battery Place station, thence into South Ferry terminal from the west.
I've probably missed a wiggle or two, but the above are the basic routes.
Thanks for the info. I know Manhattan very well as I drove a medallion cab for most of the 70's and I'm trying to picture those locations with the els.
When I go to visit the revived Franklin Shuttle, I've got to go over to Lex and Broadway. I'm 99% certain I remember surviving steel work there from the Lex, and see no reason it should have been removed.
I'm not doubting you, Sarge, I just can't believe there's nothing there.
I work a block away and I can't find anything. Another poster in subtalk (a few mos. ago) said that there were remnants but they were removed a while ago. By the way, did the tracks join there on one level with a grade level interlocking west of Gates or was it like the 3rd Av el in the Bronx where it was on a separate level from Gun Hill Rd onto W.P. Rd?
The tracks joined at one level, in other words, a train bound for Bridge-Jay St had to cross the express and the other local track to enter Lexington Ave. IIRC there was a tower straddling the express track which controlled the operation. The tower was slighty west of the switches toward Kosciusko St.
Thanks!!!
Like many old Brooklyn elevated junctions, it was on one level, somewhat like the J/M junction at Broadway-Myrtle.
I guess the structural members might be gone. It's just so unusual to "clean up" that kind of steelwork.
Before the Myrtle was torn down south of Broadway, you could still see the steelwork for the level crossings for the 5th Avenue L turnout between Bridge and Navy and the turnouts at Grand for both Lex and the ancient Park Ave. L. The latter turnout was cool, since the turnout steelwork pointed right into an *old* tenement building--shows how long the line was gone.
I never even heard of the Park Av El. Where did that one go?? I know Park crosses Bway near Myrtle.
The original route of the first Brooklyn L, known as the Lexington or Park-Lex was from the Brooklyn Bridge via York, Hudson, Park, Grand, Lexington, Broadway, Fulton to Cypress Hills.
When the Myrtle was built trains were routed for a time as two separate lines--Park to Grand to Myrtle and Myrtle to Grand to Lex to avoid corssing in front of each other at Myrtle-Grand.
The Park Avenue segment was given up very early, c.1891, though part of the original line kept service from underneath Brooklyn Bridge to the 5th Ave. L until 1904.
The main reason the line was pulled down so quickly was because it was not positioned to send trains over Brooklyn Bridge like the other Ls, and it was only a long block from Myrtle, anyway.
Nevertheless, that little piece of steelwork (actually a very visible chunk) lasted till the end of Myrtle.
Thanks for the info.
This route was also known as "The Old Main Line". It was never electrified and was one of the earliest el abandonements.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think we don't have to hedge on that. It was the earliest el abandonment, even the Sea View Railway (the wooden el on Coney Island) lasted longer, unless you want to count something like the ramp that brought the locos up the Park L.
If you can come up with an earlier one, you can knock me over with a weather, (Have a feather ready?)
Paul: Did the Boyton Bicycle Railway have any el structure or was it all surface ROW? Thanks
Larry,RedbirdR33
[Did Boynton Bicycle have an el structure]
Hmmm. If I recall the beast it had a sort of structure to support the rolling stock, but it was otherwise on the ground. AFAIK, it was not actually elevated in the sense that any New York el was. I'm not 100% on that.
I guess it's a fudge to call the Sea View on Coney Island an "elevated"--it was more like a trestle.
I have a couple of Bath Beach images at my site
http://www.angelfire.com/fl/mainframeconsole
What would have replaced the ground level running at these sites, or would they have continued with trolley service after the el structure was built on a different ROW.
If you're referring to the pictures on your site, the top one was replaced by the West End L overhead and West End trolleys on the surface.
The bottom picture had trolleys only, as the L structure was several blocks away.
Thank you.
Do know where I could find an "after" image with the trolleys?
The West End trolley lasted into the '40s, so there are a lot of pix around. Unfortunately, I can't point you any particular place.
Thank you,
I look on the ebay site for Brooklyn Post Card images.
That's where I downloaded these from.
Paul: I can't think of an earlier el abandonement but I can mention one for the subway; Beach's pneumatic tube in 1870.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Wasn't the original cable-powered el over Greenwich St. built in 1869 abandoned a few years later?
pretty sure it was sold, extensively rehabilitated, second track added, extended northward. not sure whether the rehabilitation was a total rebuild.
It seems ironic that there was an el line that ran on both a Lexington Ave. and a Park Ave., just like the Lexington Ave. IRT now does in Manhattan. That there was a "Lexington Avenue" line in Brooklyn seemed odd enough, but to learn that it also ran on "Park Avenue" is odder still.
In response to the question about the Lexington Ave el in Bklyn, there
is no surviving structure at Bway and Lex. Check the span on the J line between Kosciuszko St and Gates Ave. heading east. It appears like a straight run. The guard rails on each side of the el on Bway
are uninterrupted.
When I lived in Bed-Stuy (Bedford-Stuyvesant) in the late 50's and early 60's as a kid, I was a few blocks south of Lex. I remember seeing empty trackways and supporting pillars painted in white. At that time service had already been discontinued for ten years or so.
The trackways and el structure for the Lex ended somewhere by Sumner or Throop Ave, leaving the rest of Lex. Ave clear to Broadway, BUT
on the J line (then the #15)between the two stations mentioned above,
the guard rail on the eatbound side at Lex Ave & Bway was not there,
indicative of a past connection.
grade level
If I remember correctly, there was one faint trace that could be viewed underneath in the steelwork where the crossover once was. I am not sure that right now that the last rebuilding didn;t remove it but I will check on my next trip to the city in the next week or so.
the sixth ave el went down west bway to murray st, east to church st, down church/trinity/ to so. ferry.
for a fascinating map/service guide to the manhattan els in their heyday, visit the library of congress web site at www.loc.gov, navigate through "american memories" to railroads. do a new york search. this map/chart is the sole manhattan entry. circa 1881. way back then, the 3rd and 6th ran 24/7. 2nd didn't operate sundays. 9th didn't operate late. 6th terminated at 155th st long before polo grounds II went up. there was a terminal and bridge at 155 for the nycrr putnam div. later, the bridge became part of the subway/el system when the 6th/9th linked with the jerome ave line. that bridge came down after the polo grounds shuttle was scuttled after the giants moved west.
this site also contains some great 19th c. maps of the lirr.
however to view any of the foregoing in anything larger than a thumbnail, you must download mrsid viewer, linked to the loc site and free.
Great thread of postings, gentlemen. You might want to add the routes of two more old BRT els in Brooklyn:
Fulton Street El, which ran from Sand Street and/or Fulton Ferry (and later, Park Row) along Fulton Street to East NY (Manhattan Jct). Then curved south along Snediker (present day L train route)and along Liberty Ave. to "City Line" (Grant Ave.). Under dual contracts was extended along Liberty to Lefferts. The A train, of course, has replaced almost all of this route mile for mile; the portion from Sands St. to Rockaway Ave. was razed in 1940; from Rockaway Ave. to Grant Ave. was razed in 1956. East (operationally south) of Grant the structure is still in use.
Brooklyn's 5th Ave./3d Ave. el, probably the least known route to folks who don't hail from Brooklyn. Also came out of Sands St. (and later from Park Row), followed the Myrtle Ave. el briefly, the followed Flatbush Ave to 5th Ave., 5th Ave. to 38th St., 38th St. to 3rd Ave., then 3rd Ave. to 65th St. The surface running ancestors of today's B, F, and N routes funneled onto this line for the trip northward. This line was also razed in 1940, after NY City bought the BMT, because the 4th Ave subway and its connections to the above routes made the 5th Ave./3rd Ave. el redundant.
How about the Granddaddy of all Brooklyn Els; the Coney Island Elevated Railway which ran from the Hotel Brighton to a terminal near the Culver Depot in Coney Island. It ran from 1881 to 1900 and was electrified in 1897. It was replaced by the surface extension of the Brighton Line to the Culver Terminal.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I usually describe the Coney Island Elevated Railway (or Sea View) as the "first elevated in what was to become Brooklyn." It's a nitpick but an important one, since it was not in Brooklyn but in Coney Island, Town on Gravesend, for 90% of its existence.
It was, however, indisputably the first elevated in Kings County.
Just one question as long as at was brought up. Although I know it is going to be changed soon was there a reason why after the Fulton El was taken down the Canarsie Line went South on Van Sinderan but North on Sneidiker. After all both els are wide enough to carry both directions. (Unless its like bus routes and they're one-way els!!!-joke) Also, when are they going to discontinue the Sneidiker Av El?
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
a sick & shocking news article!!!
They just left the traffic pattern the way it was before Fulton L was completely discontinued. It's only bow, more than 40 years later, that they finally decided to remove the excess steelwork and redo the trackage.
I don't know their thinking, but since parts of the structure on Snediker are probably over a century old, it may have been an issue of rehabilitate or rebuild anyway.
What were the transit plans for the Staten Island / Brooklyn Tunnel that was never finished. Would the 3rd Ave Line have been connected to what ever was planned, or was the 4th Ave Subway going to replace it anyway?
The 4th Avenue/Broadway Subway was supposed to be extended out here to Staten Island. There were 2 proposals. One from 95th Street and the other from Whitehall Street. Brian
The 4th Ave Local was supposed to go thru the Narrows Tunnel. That is what the SIRT and BMT Cars were made to be sort of interchangeable
The BMT/BRT proposal was from 59 Street. I never heard of a SERIOUS Whitehall proposal.
4th Ave. subway was supposed to connect to a Narrows tunnel just after the 59th Street Station, and then go to S.I. As another posting also noted, the SIRT was electrified in 1925 with a third rail and rolling stock compatible with BMT profiles, with the idea that through service would operate from S.I. to Brooklyn and Manhattan via the BMT subway.
Rumor has it that NY State Governor Al Smith and NY City Mayor John Hylan secretly killed the Narrows Tunnel. Smith had large Pennsylvania RR stock holdings - the SIRT was owned by the PRR's chief rival, the Baltimore and Ohio RR. Hylan, as is well known, hated the BMT and took every opportunity to do it harm.
That sound likely for that era.
Wasn't there also a BRT/BMT + LIRR/PRR Financial connection?
I believe that the tunnel construction was a private undertaking that must have had some early backing from both parties to get started.
Unless, it was an entreprenurial venture on its own.
I remember reading a contemporary newspaper article that described the Narrows Tunnel as a "public/private partnership". The B & O, not having its own terminal in NY harbor, was going to pay for all the rail yard construction costs, and the electrification and track work in the tunnel. It was going to have 4 tubes, 2 for passenger and 2 for electric freight. According to the same story, the B & O was then going to purchase the financially ailing BMT lines, and merge the SIRT into the combined system, which accounts for the B types and the SIRT cars being compatible. As you know, the B & O built the connecting spur to the draw bridge over the Kill Van Kull around the same time, with an eye towards getting into NYC in a big way. Supposedly, the Port Authority was the culprit in quashing the project.
Wonder in the tunnel boring machine is still down there?
There were different attempts and plans for a Staten Island tunnel, including as part of the Dual Contracts.
The SIRT had several impetuses toward electrification. The design of the cars had conscious similarities to BMT equipment because of SIRT's hopes there would be a Staten Island tunnel.
Although the SIRT cars bore a resemblance of sorts to the BMT standards, they could not m. u. with them. For years, it was thought they could, but when the TA bought those 30 surplus cars in the 50s and barged them over to CI shops, surprise, surprise....
Whatever else might have needed to be done to enable the SIRT cars to MU with the Standards, the couplers were not electrically compatible. The Standards had H2A's, the SIRT cars H2C's.
Did the SIRT cars really use the old steel destination signs similar to those used in the gate cars?
Yes when they ran on the Old Culver Line, The same type as on the orig IRT Cars
But I don't think the SIRT cars (sub-Standards?) ever had destination signs when they were on their original route.
No, but they did have marker lights.
Take a ride to 59th St on the 4th Ave subway. On the local track heading south to the next stop on the R, you will see a turnout
(more like a straightway, since the local track swings into an interlock with the express track). These tunnels were supposed to lead to an abandoned tunnel by Owls Head in Bay Ridge. There is also another theory that the 4th Ave. line was supposed to have 4 tracks all the way down to 95th St and continue out under the Narrows to Staten Is. Check the track layout between 59th St and Bay Ridge Ave.
Do you know that there are two half el beams at the corner of Atlantic Av & Flatbush Av? I think that beams could come from Myrte ave el? Any body know about this?
Peace Out
Meaney
Meaney: An educated guess would be the remains of the LIRR connection into the Fifth Av El which ran from 1899 to 1904 although portions of the ramp remained until quite recently to serve an elevated merchadise mart.
Larry,RedbirdR33
No, thats from the LIRR (I think)
The only visible remnants of the Lex el in Brooklyn are in the middle of the Pratt campus on Grand Ave. When they yanked the el out in '48, the pillar foundations were filled in rather hastily, so you can still see the 4' x 4' outlines in the pavement from between Willoughby and DeKalb Aves. It is surprising to note how narrow the spaces are.
There is also a pair of manholes on the sidewalk noting their former job accessing the power feeders across from the Pratt power plant.
Check out the Pratt power plant while you are there too. Conrad Milster runs the place. It's like walking into the last century.
There used to be a building on Myrtle & Grand that had the corner cut out to clear the curve of the original Myrtle/Lex el intersection. A hundred years ago, there were actually two separate els on Myrtle, separated by only a few feet at this intersection. One went up Myrtle from the Bridge to Grand and turned right. The other came up from Park (where the BQE is now) on Grand, and turned left on Myrtle toward Queens. When the two companies merged, they cut the Park Av. el down to Myrtle and installed jumper structure, and ran the tracks straight thru, with a switch to go down Grand toward Lex. When the Myrtle el was being torn down, you could clearly see the added structure.
Thanks for the info. As there is a Duncan D. at Bway and Lex (no stereotyping please!!!!) I usually park on Lex somewhere between Bway and Marcus Garvey (Sumner) to have my coffee and I always try to find something there. (I rarely tell my drivers or I'd get the same reaction Fred got when talking to people on the Sea Beach.) The only possible connection to the el is the fact that Lexington is a little more industrial (warehouses, etc) than surrounding streets and the fact that the buildings are set back further than on parallel streets.
Well, Floyd left us a big mess. Super-severe flooding, all-time record rainfall and I was nearly hit with a flying tree branch(not a big one).
SEPTA, Amtrak and Philly International had problems.
After the storm hit there was no Amtrak service south of the city. There were no flights in or out of the airport until well into the night and SEPTA, well there was a water rescue performed at the Conshohocken station on the Norristown R6. People were plucked from the train with boats. The R1,R2, R3, R5, R6, R7 and R8 had either no service, busses instead of trains or hour-long delays.
Note:
Just from 30th Street,
All Amtrak trains between NYC and Philadelphia have been cancelled. Hourly service between DC and Philadelphia.
And that ain't all,Steve. A source at NJT reports the following (as of 5a.m.):
Tracks near Trenton reportedly under 4-5 feet of water. As Steve said,Amtrak has no service Philly-NYC. NJT Trenton service terminating at Hamilton East.
Boonton,Pascack Valley,and Port Jervis lines: No service due to flooding,fallen trees and other debris on tracks at various locations.
A good day to stay home!
And in Baltimore, 4 trains were stalled at West Baltimore station (on the NE Corridor) for OVER 10 hours. There was no correct information, one passenger with a cell phone called AMTRAK's president, no one in Philadelphia knew anything. Irate passengers were finally evacuated after almost 12 hours (one train left DC @ 10:30 AM. the passengers were finally placed on buses @ 11:00 PM.)
As of this AM there was no ATK service Washington-NYC-Boston.
A nice PR Black eye for the pointless arrow.
Wow, seeing all those "R" lines in your post I got excited. I thought the old IND cars were back!!!!
Didn't realize you meant Philly!!!
Sorry about that.
Maybe "Regional Rail" would have been better.
P.S. This morning, the B&O tracks that run parallel to the PRR tracks across the Schuylkill were almost totally submerged. The river has since receded, but is still higher(and browner) than usual.
Yesterday (Thursday) afternoon, at 6 PM, the B & O tracks were more like a canal than anything else. I've never seen it this bad. Water was up Arch St and Cherry St east of 23rd St.
As of Fri PM, all Regional Rails were back although R7's weren't all going to Trenton and R3's parking lot at Bethayres was still under water to some degree.
I was reading these messages all day, and I'm a fan, and I just GOT this pun!
The Wall on DVD 11.9.99!
-Hank
Pun?
Pink Floyd is the band that perfomed 'The Wall' One of the songs on the album, a three-parter, is entitled 'Another Brick in the Wall' Most non-Floyd fans know this as the 'We Don't Need No Education' song, it's album title is 'Another Brick in the Wall (Part II)'
-Hank
Their only Billboard #1 hit, in 1980. I was watching footage of Hurricane Floyd as it hit the Bahamas and the song that came to mind was "One Of These Days"; the people fleeing the storm in their cars brought "Run Like Hell" to mind.
NJT Boonton, Pascack Valley and Port Jervis lines, as well as MNRR Hudson Branch are STILL out. There's a tropical depression developing in the Gulf of Mexico, and Hurricane Gert's still out there.
Wayne
Many thanks for the explanation. I've heard the song but never paid any attention to who was singing it.
See Steve's post re the need for educated TA workers.
By the way, re songs with obscure official names: do you know why the song generally known as "Feeling Groovy" is officially entitled "The 59th Street Bridge Song"?
In November 1967, the Chrystie Street Connection merged the
IND and BMT Divisions. The B and D trains operated to Coney Island
via the Manhattan Bridge's North Side track. The F train operated to
Coney Island via the Culver Line, replacing the D train.
Why did they change Brighton Line's weekday local QT service
to QJ? In 1972-1973, why did they replaced this service with the M,
and had the J and M trains switch terminals in Lower Manhattan? Why
was the QB service reduced to rush hours service only after the
Chrystie Street Connection opened? When the D train was rerouted down
the brighton Line, why did they make the D go to Coney Island and
the QB and QJ locals go to Brighton Beach, until August 18th, 1968,
when the D ended at Brighton Beach when express in Brooklyn and the
QB and QJ ended at Coney Island? In 1986, when the Manhattan Bridge's
North side was closed, why did the D and Q switched their Southern
Terminals and operations, by having the D run local and the Q run
express between Prospect Park and Brighton Beach? Why was the M train
rerouted to the West End Line when the Manhattan Bridge North Side
tracks closed?
When the D line was rerouted down the Brighton Line, the F
replaced the Culver Line service to/from Coney Island. At first, why
did they run the F local in Brooklyn 24 hours a day, until July 1968?
In July 1968, the GG was extended to Church Avenue and the F ran
express in Brooklyn whenver the GG operated to/from Church Avenue.
Was this the only time, the express tracks were used on the F line
between Jay Street and Church Avenue? Why was the Bergen Street
express stop abandoned and the express service was discontinued in
the 1960s? Will they ever extend the G to Church Avenue and have the
F run express when the 63rd Street Connection opens in 2001?
When the B line was extended over to the West End Line to/from
Coney Island, why was the TT still running as a shuttle from 36th
Street-4th Avenue to Coney Island, Brooklyn? During the rush hours,
the B ran to/from 168th Street-Braoadway. How did it operate express
between 34th Street-6th Avenue and West 4th Street with the D on the
weekdays? There were no express tracks on the 6th Avenue Line until
July 1st, 1968, when the KK service debuted. Why did the B STOP at
DeKalb Avenue on weekends in the past? But why are the B trains bypassing DeKalb Avenue on weekends as well, whenever the Q is NOT
running? Someone told me that the B and N only stop at DeKalb Avenue
whenever the Q is NOT running, and when the Manhattan Bridge's south
side tracks are opened. Why was the Culver Shuttle discontinued in
1975? They could have rebuilt the structure and continue to operate
this service today.
When the Chrystie Street Connection opened, why did the N line
have another sister line: NX? Why did they operate NX trains during
the rush hours from 57th Street-7th Avenue to Brighton Beach via the
Sea Beach Express tracks? The result was the discontinuation of this
low-ridership service in 1968. Was this the only time the Sea Beach
Express tracks are used for passenger service? Why is the Sea Beach
Southbound E4 Express track being abandoned from 8th Avenue to Kings
Highway? Will they ever use the Sea Beach Express track for rush hour
bypass service in the future?
The RR service was rerouted to Ditmars Blvd-Astoria when the
Chrystie Street Connection opened. Why did they operate an RJ trains
during the rush hours from 168th Street-Jamaica Avenue to 95th Street-
4th Avenue during the rush hours? Why was this service changed the
the RR and only operating to/from Chambers Street-Centre Street in
1968? In May 1987, why did the N and R switched terminals in Queens?
Someone told me when the South Side tracks open and the North
side opens, the West End Express should be relettered to T and the
Brighton Local should be relettered U or W, when they are running via
Broadway. Will they ever do this?
James Li
Why not?
Huh???
In May 1987, why did the N and R switched terminals in Queens?
James,
If you look at the yard standpoint, it is easy to understand why N and R switched terminals.
Before the switch, N had both terminals with a yard nearby (Coney Island and Jamaica Yards); on the other hand, R had terminals with no yard nearby.
It is easy to have a yard nearby to dispatch, maintain, and even repair trains. Then you can understand why N and R switched terminals.
Then you can understand why #2 and #3 switched terminals in Brooklyn.
Chaohwa
I doubt that anyone knows the answers to all your "whys".
As for the 6th Avenue express tracks, they in fact opened the day (Monday) immediately after the day (Sunday) that Chrystie St. opened.
They were used rush hours only until July 1, 1968, at which time 24-hour operation began on the 6th Ave. express tracks.
In the early 50s on Sunday s in the Summer, The BMT Franklin Shuttle used to run to Coney Island via the Brighton Line, there it switched to the Sea Beach, where it ran express past DeKalb Ave and the Old Myrtle Ave Station, there it switched over to the South portion of the Manhatten Bridge, which at the time was part of the Nassau St Loop, and then terminated at Chambers St on The Broadway Brooklyn/Jamaica Line,
This lasted only a couple of summers. That is one other time when the middle tracks on the Sea Beach (N) were used
To comment on Bob's post, the Franklin "Shuttle" wasn't extended to Coney Island. The "Shuttle" didn't operate when Expresses ran to Coney Island or to Chambers, or during rush hours when Locals ran to Brighton Beach. Franklin-Nassau Express service operated from some time in the 1920s until the TA killed it off twenty-five or thirty years later. I wouldn't be surprised if it ever came out that the main reason for the shorter platforms in the Franklin Shuttle rebuilding is to make sure Franklin service can never run to and from Coney Island again.
I'm not certain Franklin-Nassau expresses operated in 1953, the TA's first summer; if they ran that year, it could be the TA hadn't noticed it. (The same thing is likely to happen in the next few months when they realize they forgot to cancel the overnight expresses on 6th Avenue and Central Park West, the only route left.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Franklin-Nassau began in 1924. at the same time the BMT extended Franklin Avenue Line platforms to accomodate 6-car trains of B-types.
I'm not sure which was the last year for Franklin-Nassau--I believe I've heard 1952. When Franklin-Nassau didn;t run, both the Franklin Express and Brighton Local went through to Coney Island on Sunday, the Brighton on Track C and the Franklin on Track D.
The thing that really killed the Franklin seasonal service was the through-routing of the D train on the Culver. People from upper Manhattan and the Bronx used to take the A train to Franklin Avenue and changed there for the Brighton-Franklin. When the D went direct, most of that business dried up.
The D replaced the F To Church Ave, and extended to Coney Island running on the Culver Line in 1954But the Culver Still ran from Ditmas Ave in Rush Hours to Chambers St. Via the Nassau Loop, It was local on the 4th Ave Line. But If I remember correctly during rush hours there was a Culver Express Times Too. Also during the early 50s during rush hours the Culver Terminated at Kings Highway, and the West End terminated at Bay Parkway. The remain portions were a shuttle and they used mixtures of Q Cars, Gate Cars, 2 Car B and I I section Triplex. This ended when the TA bought R15-s on the Eastern Division and the Southern Div received the remaining Bs
I think Paul Matus's date of 1952 for the last year of Franklin-Nassau service is probably right. But I also think the TA's elimination of Sunday expresses on the Brighton was a deliberate policy decision--to start the process of getting rid of all non-rush hour expresses, a process that is still going on. The general anti-BMT attitude might be part of it as well, to be somewhat paranoid.
In the late 1940s and early 1950s, I rode rush-hour BU trains running on the Culver from 9th Avenue to Coney Island, with subway trains terminating at Kings Highway. The opposite-direction rush-hour express had already been discontinued by then, though. The gate-car service was a survival of the old Culver service going downtown on Fifth Avenue. On the West End, rush-hour subway service terminated at Bay Parkway, with C-Type cars handling the shuttle; if memory serves, the southbound subway train arrived on the local track and the shuttle was on the express track, but that was a long time ago and the memory isn't as good as it used to be.
I never saw D-Types, Q-Types (weren't they all on the Third Avenue in the early 1950s?), or even 67-footers on those shuttles, but given BMT tradition, almost anything would have been possible.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
BTW, it was R-16s delivered to the Eastern Division; R-15s were IRT cars assigned to Flushing.
I never saw those West End and Culver shuttles, but I know the reason for them: the BMT was chronically short on subway equipment. They used elevated equipment on those shuttles to fill in, so it's unlikely either B- or D-types were ever used on the shuttle except for some weird emergency reason.
The subway car shortage on the BMT Division didn't really end until the R27s were delivered.
I did as a child, My Mom was a school teacher at PS 212 on Bay 49th & Harway Aves, across from the Bay 50th St West End Station. I went to her school for Kindergarden, and she used to take me there for special field trips, Her room looked out of the tracks as they came in from the Canal bridge to Coney Island. and also the Wye Crossover to the yards. I remember seeing gate cars, q cars, then later on 2 Car B Units and sometimes a single triplex. As to the Culver I remember Q Cars and the Gate Cars.
Alot of the modifications to the Chrystie St. services were because they found that certain things didn't work, or that it could be done better. They thought a Sea Beach super express would be a great idea to speed people into Manhattan (especially with the loss of Q express service at Brighton Beach), but when it didn't work out, they cut it. The same with the F express/G to Church Av. (local riders wanted a direct service to Manhattan. That is what is holding up reinstitution of the service. It could happen when 63rd St opens, and a new 6th Av. route is created. They could also send the E to Church Av. in the WTC G.O. next year, but that would only be temporary, and people would complain when it ended). It started afterward, perhaps because they just didn't think of it right away.
The TT shuttle was a leftover from the old West End/Nassau line. It made sense to rename it "B", because that was all it was: a "B" shuttle. It no longer ran to Chambers at other times, and all that runs on the line is the B. That's just something else that dawned on them later.
In the original plan, there wouldn't have been anymore QB, but since local riders complained about loss of direct midtown service, 5 QJ trains were turned into QB and ran to 57th.
The D and QJ had to cross over each other at Brighton Beach, and this caused delays, so they kept them on the same tracks. Perhaps they did the switching move in the first place because the D had been going to Coney Island via the Culver before, or because it wuld go there all other times when the QJ wasn't running, so it seemed less confusing.
Having the long J line run all the way to Coney Island was more cmplicated than sending the short M service, so that's why those were switched.
Is this why they changed the Brighton Local weekdays service
from QT to QJ when the Chrystie Street Connection opened? I would
like to know why did they reroute the M service to the West End Line
when the Manhattan Bridge's North side tracks began reconstruction
in April 1986? Why did the D and Q trains switched their southern
terminals as a result? When the 63rd Street Connection opens, will
there be a Broadway-Brighton Local via Tunnel?
Until September 30th, 1990, the B trains stopped at DeKalb
Avenue on the Weekends, when the Q is not running. Why are they
bypassing DeKalb Avenue now on the weekends, when the Q is not
running? The rule is supposed to be when there is no Q service, the
B should stop at DeKalb Avenue. The same thing goes for the N when
only when the Manhattan Bridge's South side tracks are open.
James Li
The M was put on the West End line when the Brighton line's express tracks underwent reconstruction in 86-88. It has never returned because it simply isn't needed. those riders prefer local trains which go directly to mid-town.
Nobody knows what the configuration will be when the southside reopens. I doubt there will be a QT type train, as the N will still be rerouted through the tunnel.
B trains skip Dekalb because it would have to switch onto the same track that the N and R use from north of Pacific to just south of Dekalb. Running them through the bypass tracks at all times eliminates this.
I'm not sure why the TA made the QJ as the base local for the Brighton line. I would have simply kept the QT and run it from Coney Island to 71-Continental during the same hours the EE Bway/Queens local ran, and I would have never created such a train as the "EE". I would have run the QJ to 95th St rush hours only, or (highly unlikely) to 9th Ave with ane eye on extending it to Ditmas Ave via the Culver Shuttle. This would have required re-installing the Manhattan bound track. But upgrading an existing el would have a zero chance of happening in the late 60's/early 70's.
The M on the West End recreates the old West End Short Line which went to Chambers Street.
When Chyrstie went in it was thought that 15 trains per hour B service via 6th Avenue would suffice for West End riders. It didn't.
also the old Culver Shuttle Before that from 9th Ave
I had forgotten to address the D & Q switch. During all of the Manhattan Bridge reroutes from right after Chrystie St. to 1994, and the weekend G.O.'s to the present, they always kept the D on the Brighton no matter where it went (Bway, Nassau), as the full time service, instead of making the Bway Q the dominant service. I don't know why they insisted on doing this. Perhaps because when you had the R-40m/42's with the one piece signs, youc coudn't change a D to a QB, and only the 8 car 42's assigned to the M had the QB signs, and it would have been complicated to shift all the cars. So the D was always made the full time service. Just like the E on Queens Blvd, even when it goes to Whitehall (the "discontinue" the R, and replace it with the E instead of just extending the R beyond it's normal terminal and operating hours. In 95 they finally got smart and called the rerouted Brightonservice "Q"). Since there was no express service on the Brighton due to the track work, and the D and Q made skip stops on the same tracks, it made sense to have the D go to Coney Island at all times. It was the reversal of your earlier question as to why the D and QJ were switched.
In the early Chrystie St plans, they might have kept the QT designation, but ultimately, since the new line was a combination of the QT and J, they chose QJ (The B was originally ghoing to be the BT, since it combined the BB with the T. But since it was now mostly express, they chose the single letter designation.
Chech the FAQ Mnhattan Bridge section for possible future routings. Nothing is definite now, but there are good ideas of what might happen.
Whew! A lot of these questions have been addressed in previous threads.
The RJ was a repackaged 4th Ave. Bankers Special. The main difference was that it could no longer loop back to the Southern Division via the Manhattan Bridge, since the Nassau St. connection had been severed, so it kept going to Jamaica. Apparently, ridership didn't meet expectations, so this route was cut back to Chambers St., which made much more sense. Here's a question of my own: how were such turnarounds handled at Chambers St; i. e., trains coming in from the Montague St. tunnel?
The 6th Ave. express tracks were ready for service when the Chrystie St. connection opened; however, the new 57th St. station was not. Consequently, B trains terminated at W. 4th St. during non-rush hours except nights and Sundays, when they didn't operate, and shared the express tracks with D trains during rush hours. When the 57th St. station opened on July 1, 1968, KK service was inaugurated, B trains began running 24/7 (to 168th St. during rush hours running express along 6th Ave, and to 57th St. other times running local along 6th Ave.); and D trains began running express along 6th Ave at all times.
Steve B - 8AVEXP writes:
"The RJ was a repackaged 4th Ave. Bankers Special. The main difference was that it could no longer loop back to the Southern Division via the Manhattan Bridge, since the Nassau St. connection had been severed, so it kept going to Jamaica. Apparently, ridership didn't meet expectations, so this route was cut back to Chambers St., which made much more sense.Here's a question of my own: how were such turnarounds handled at Chambers St; i. e., trains coming in from the
Montague St. tunnel?"
The RJ was also a local; up to the mid-1950s, the Fourth Avenue Special got from 95th Street to Chambers in seven stops (eight in the later fifties) versus the nineteen that the RJ took. No wonder people stopped riding it.
Trains coming into Chambers from the Montague Street Tunnel used the H-track connection for reversing, just as they had done during non-rush hours all the years the H-tracks were available for Bridge service. Are there still usable stub tracks there?
That junction is one that we seem to have forgotten in the summer discussion of grade crossings on the New York subways.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Yes, those tracks are still there and were completely replaced along with all the myriad of switches north of Chambers about 5 years ago.
And they were used for both the 4 Shuttle service this past weekend, and the Bay Parkway M trains when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed.
Gents, Ladies plans to open a second Museum here in London
are now taking shape very quickly using part of Ealing Common
depot on the District Line.
I invite you all to check the progress and a full exhibit car roster at the following site:
http://www.ltmuseum.co.uk/depot/
.
Regards
Rob :^)
London UK
It's hard to believe, but if you read the article below, the CTA just annonced 4 station renovations and when they are completed the entire Green Line that exsists within the city of Chicago will be handicapped accessible and ony 3 of the 4 stations in the Suburb of Oak Park will not be accessible. They did however spend an enourmous figuere on the Harlem/Lake Terminal Station, in Oak Park, to make it acessible after the renovation.
Anyway, here's the article, it is also important to know that the Western Avenue Station will be renovated completely. This is the first station out of the three on the Ohare Branch of the Blue Line that are Elevated and in bad shape.
My ony opion is why renovate almost all the Green Line Stations to Handicapped accessibility when other entire Rail Line's have only 2 or 3 accessible stations on the entire route???
------------------------------------------------------------------------
09/15/99
The Chicago Transit Board, at its monthly meeting, approved a contract
that will bring a series of improvements to four CTA rail stations
mainly along the Green Line and one Blue Line O'Hare Branch station.
These improvements include construction, rehabilitation and enhancement of station facilities to make them more attractive, convenient and accessible to customers with disabilities.
"By continuing to reinvest in our infrastructure and facilities, our
goal is to persuade new customers to try our transit system," said CTA
Board Chairman Valerie B. Jarrett. "These improvements will reinforce
other successful initiatives aimed at meeting the needs of our customers and our dedication to making our system accessible to everyone."
Under this contract, improvements to the four Green Line stations
include making them compliant with the Americans With Disabilities Act
(ADA). The Indiana station on the South Side will receive a new station house with elevators, additional audio-visual signs and ADA graphics for the visually impaired. The Pulaski station on the West Side will be improved with elevators that carry customers from the street level to the platforms, similar to those in place at the Kedzie and California Green Line stations. The improvements to the Garfield station on the South Side also include a new station house with elevators and an escalator, tactile edging, audio-visual signs and ADA graphics for the visually impaired.
The historic Homan station house will be relocated to Conservatory Drive where a new station will be built to serve the community and visitors to the Garfield Park Conservatory. The structure will be restored and rebuilt with all the modern amenities and in the same architectural style as the Ashland Green Line station. These amenities include elevators, tactile edging, an ADA graphics package and audio-visual signs that alert customers when trains are approaching.
The historic Blue Line Western station along the O'Hare Branch will be
dismantled, restored and rebuilt. The reconstructed station will be
fully accessible and will meet all ADA requirements with features such
as those listed above.
This project was competitively bid and the Walsh Construction Company of Chicago was the lowest responsive and responsible bidder. They will
carry out the $36.8 million station improvement contract with 30% DBE
participation of minority and female contractors and suppliers.
Construction is expected to begin within 60 days from a final contract
and should be completed within 16 months. Upon completion of this
station improvement project, 95% of the CTA rail stations designated to be made ADA-compliant under an agreement with the Federal Transportation Administration, will have been completed.
CTA President Frank Kruesi said, "The ability to rebuild our transit
system directly affects the quality of service we offer our customers
and I'm pleased to be able to move ahead with these station
improvements. This investment in our system, together with the
commitment by our staff to provide on-time, clean, safe and friendly
service allows us to better meet our service demands."
###
BJ
Please make sure you get permission from whatever newspaper you pulled that from before you post articles word for word. Just because it's on the web doesn't mean you can post it somewhere else (and without attribution no less). Thanks.
The Article was posted Directly from the CTA Web site and they didn't give any credit to any newspaper!
I believe they may have just posted it in the news articles section and it may not have appeared in any newspapers.
Anway, it is copyright the 1999 Chicago Transit Authority.
BJ
Thanks for the note. But think of it this way. I wouldn't want someone taking something from this site and posting it somewhere else with no permission, or at least attribution at minimum. So be careful when you do things like this. "Sorry I didn't know better" is not a valid excuse if you end up on the recieving end of a copyright infringement complaint :-)
-Dave
[The Article was posted Directly from the CTA Web site and they didn't give any credit to any newspaper!]
CTA must be taking a lesson from let's-steal-a-map-and-pass-it-off-as-our-own SEPTA.
"[The Article was posted Directly from the CTA Web site and they didn't give any credit to any newspaper!]"
"CTA must be taking a lesson from let's-steal-a-map-and-pass-it-off-as-our-own SEPTA."
Or it could possibly be a CTA press release, thus explaining any similarity to newspaper articles on the CTA Board decision.
[[[The Article was posted Directly from the CTA Web site and they didn't give any credit to any newspaper!]"
[[CTA must be taking a lesson from let's-steal-a-map-and-pass-it-off-as-our-own SEPTA.]
[Or it could possibly be a CTA press release, thus explaining any similarity to newspaper articles on the CTA Board decision]
Yep, that's a possibility ... which doesn't reflect too well on the newspapers :-)
>>The historic Homan station house will be relocated to Conservatory Drive
>>where a new station will be built to serve the community and visitors
>>to the Garfield Park Conservatory.
I remember hearing some debate over this. Apparently the CTA wanted to move and rebuild the station at Central Park instead of Homan to serve the Conservatory and the park (and it would also be more centered between the Kedzie and Pulaski stops).
BUT... Central Park has no bus service! Homan DOES. And a number of people complained about having to walk those extra two blocks to reach the buses at night in that neighborhood.
Anybody know when the CTA came to their decision?
The CTA wanted to move Homan to Central Park/Conservatory Drive from the beginning. It's not news. I can't see why people complain about having to walk two blocks, when they have to anyway; the station has been closed for about 5 years, and anyone getting of the Homan bus right now has to walk to Kedzie.
Besides, the idiotic CTA has cut off all night service on the Green Line anyway, so people won't be doing that at 1 or 2 in the morning; they'll probably switch to the Madison bus.
There was one time that every line in the system except the Ravenswood and Skokie Swift ran all the time; the cta has gradually cut that back so that only 1 complete line, and 1 line with only one branch operates late at night. They claim to be replacing the all-night L service with bus service. However, the CTA doesen't seem to be able to figure out that L service costs LESS to operate than bus service; you need more buses than trains, since buses are slower, and since all trains are OPTO now, there won't be any labor difference.
-Jacob
I was riding the J line and was wondering why their isn't revenue express service from Myrtle Ave to Broadway/East New York. I am not a big fan of skip stop service on a train, but I would think it wouls save about five minutes, then the J and Z can run skip stop all the way to Archer. The J would become the Broadway Local with the M, and the Z would remain the Broadway Express.
I just hate to see wasted non-revenue tracks.
Frank D
You should be careful what you wish. The MTA is likely to rip up those tracks.
Skip-stop is stupid and inconvinent. The author of the Washington Post article "Straight to Hell" which was written a few months ago wanted to go to the Bronx and had no clue as to weather to take a 1 or 9, weather it was rush hour, or even what skip-stop was! What should happen is the 9 and Z service should be redesignated as 1 and J respectively and there be ALL STOP service on the 1 and J. Also, the J shoudl simply make LOCAL STOPS between Myrtle and Broad. A non-peak train only skips Bowery and more than half the time, the J is local all the way.
If skip-stop service is ended on the J/Z line it will push many riders from Jamaica back on to the Queens Blvd. express. Skip-stop service was designed to lure people from the E to the J to get into the financial district of Manhattan. It also saves up to 8 minutes from Supthin Blvd. to Myrtle. Skip-stop service also divides the crowd in half between the 2 services. It works as it is and shouldn't be changed.
I work near the Gates Av Station on the J/Z. Although I usually drive to work, occasionally (if I have to work a day tour, I hate rush hour traffic!!) I take the LIRR to ENY and the J/Z to Gates. (And very occasionally the "L" betw Atlantic & Bway Junc) I was never sure how the skip/stop worked over there but every train I've ever taken has stopped at Gates as well as the stations between,such as Chauncey. Was I just lucky?? Do trains ever skip Gates??
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
If you look closely at the map, there is a notation next to each station name showing whether the J or the Z or both stop(s) at the station.
According to the May 1999 edition of "the map," there is no Z service West of Broadway-Eastern Parkway, only J service to Myrtle and M service from Myrtle to Marcy, with no service at all accross the bridge. While obviously out of date, it would explain why every train you took at ENY stopped at Gates and every stop in between during the re-construction of the bridge.
The May 1998 edition shows that the J stops at ENY all the time and that the Z also stops there when it is running. Halsey is served only by the J, all the time. Gates and Chauncey only by the Z when it is running and only by the J when the Z is not I guess that this service pattern is back now that the bridge is open again.
Thanks. I usually got off the LIRR at ENY about 0630hrs and got to Bway Junct about 5 min later so I think it was before skip/stop started because I always got a "J" and it always stopped at Gates. Going home I usually got a ride to the LIRR.
During skip/stop service, Gates Ave. is a Z only stop.
I agree with you 100%. The Z and 9 designations are merely to provide an alternative name for what is essentially J' and 1' services with an alternate set of stops from those that the J and 1 stop at. The services are designed to be balanced and really just provide a faster trip (but slightly longer wait) to a 2-track line.
Making the J or J' become express west of Eastern Pkwy just makes the unlucky "local" station users get a slower service and may provide congestion at Myrtle Avenue, but doesn't otherwise gain anybody better service. Having one train skip a grand total of 4 stations is not too different from having each train skip 2 stations, especially since they are about 3-4 minutes apart anyway.
What seems strange to me is the few 1-only and 9-only stations, about 3 or 4 of each. I don't know why so many of the stations above 137 St. are "both" stops. Are they so crowded that they need service every 2-3 minutes? Just wondering...
Also I wonder why there isn't skip-stop service on the L Line. That looks like a perfect candidate.
Skip/Stop seems like it would be very inconvenient for someone going very locally (a few stops) If his start station is a 1 or J station and he's going to a 9 or Z station. Its not like the buses where its an extra block walk. By the way, wasn't this Ed Norton's idea when he was playing pool with Ralph's boss??
I'm trying to find that episode on my tapes I thought Norton's suggestion was for odd or evens. I never understood why Ralph got so upset at the end of that episode when Norton reassured him that as long as he was a supervisor at the bus company, Ralph could rest assured by being a bus driver for the rest of his life. Job security is important, isn't it?
That wasn't at the end. And I think Ralph thought that he'd never be promoted.
9/18/99
WMATAGMOH,
I agree with you about the skip stop thing. But how about this,leave the (J) local as you suggested and make the (Z) express from ENY to Marcy Ave. Also extend (Z) service about a half hour past the present cut-off time. As far as the (1) & (9), make the (9) express from Van Cortland Park to Dyckman St. and make use of the unused express tracks from 137th St to 96th St. If such a wild express would come to light it would certainly benefit those coming off those Westchester County buses at 242nd St .
Bill Newkirk
Sounds like a good idea, but what about the people who get off Metro North at Marble Hill 225th St. By transfering to the subway there they save quite a lot of money, hen taking the train all the way to GCT
The problem with that is the Z train runs on a 10 minute headway throughout the rush hour, as does the J. This may be inadequate for local stops along Broadway. It will also cause grumblings from "J" skip-stop service riders who live near "J" only stops that they have to endure local service all the way to Manhattan.
One thing that could be done is that skip/stop service be abandoned, run the J and Z local from jamaica to ENY, then run the Z as a super express, skipping every single station from ENY to Essex.
I doubt the need is there for any change of service. The J/Z skip/stop service has done well for the past 10 years and really should be left alone.
Does anything the Transit Authority does makes sense?
Hell, no. Did it ever?
The J/Z, as well as the 1/9, should be considered one line and one line only since it starts and finishes at the same terminals. The only distinction is they make different station stops in order to reduce rush hour running time.
And because they share the same terminals and run the same route from one end point to another, the intervals between trains should be constant. If one " line" gets an express run from Bway-Myrtle to Eastern Pkwy (a 2 minute reduction in running time), then the wait between trains before or after the express run would not be 5 minutes between each train. For example, it should arrive at station A at 5:00, 5:05, 5:10, 5:15, 5:20, 5:25, 5:30 etc, but with an express run for one "line", it would be: 5:00, 5:03, 5:10, 5:13, 5:20, 5:23, 5:30, etc. The object is to provide evenly spaced trains along the entire route.
Njt is hit hard.this am Trenton was underwater. Port Jervis line out till Monday at Earliest. Pascack line still out. raritan out from Dunellen to High Bridge due to flooding.
subways--minor problems: for a while dowtown B/D ran on 8th ave--B ran local and D ran express. Also- E was halted for a while- flooding at 5th ave/53rd. I was at 23/8th. The station and line stayed open but the station was touch and go-- water running in. The 25th exit was partly underwater and was pouring onto the tracks-got up to the top of the trough. I had a cleaner pushing water the first time and the second time was worse but the line ran.
PATH ran but as of 1030am Thursday the SOuth bypass track at Journal; Square was already ot of service--flooded. Track 1 (was barely open. A ton of workers were keepinmg it open. This morning (Friday) PATH had all tracks open, but the freight yard on the south was underwater--the tracks were comopletely submerged. Amtrak was out-- it was strange seeing "Canceled" next to Metro Liner and all other amtrak trains!
at home- no problems.
My trip to New York in August was a blast and it was an enjoyable experience. I rode almost all the trains and saw the sites, but there was one real bummer for me. When I was a kid and we got off the subway there was always a candy store on the corner or down the block. There were no such stores around this time. In fact I never saw a old fashioned candy store. Did I just miss it or have they all just disappeared like punch, stoop, and stick ball? Of anyone can shed some light on this, please do. I didn't have an egg cream all the time I was in the city.
Well, the only old candy store I know of is the Lexington Candy Shop. Its on 83 or 84 and Lexington. Its been there forever.
Peace Out
-Clayton
It was written about in the Times in an article about old fashioned professions in NY that are still around. I've never been in a REAL cnady store. For all my friends and I (well, I in the past), a candy store is one of those little groceries that have wide candy selections.
There are still alot of places around that say "Luncheonette" that are almost like the old candy stores. As I stated in an old thread a couple of months ago I really miss the cafeterias and automats. My favorite cafeteria's were Dubrows on Kings Hway at the Brighton Station, the Jerome Cafeteria opposite Yankee Stadium, and the cab driver's hangout, The Bellmore Cafeteria at 28th & Pk Av S. As a kid my brother went to a speech therapist on Irving Place and we used to wait for him at the Automat there opp. Washington Irving H.S. In those places you got a well balanced, nutricious meal for reasonable prices.
Now all you have are fast food places where kids actually believe french fries are a healthy vegetable!! Too bad I'm not a cardiologist. Even in the Greek Emporium Diners these days the side dishes are usually fries!!
By candy store do you mean the store with the wood stand outside with the latest editions of the local newspapers for sale. Inside was a six seat soda fountain, candy, tobacco, magazines, comics, greeting cards and a small selection of toys. It also was a place to buy a new "spaldeen" if you needed one for punchball or stickball. Is this the type of candy store you were looking for?
You just described Louie's Sweet Shop on the Bowery Boys!!!
I thought I was describing Moe's Candy Store at the foot of the el stairs at the Crescent St station of the Jamaica el.
I also forgot to mention the two telephone booths at the rear of the store.
I worked there for several hours each evening waiting for the "pinks" and for about an hour afterwards. Also worked there during the day in the summer time. There were a lot of stores just like it all over Brooklyn.
Karl: That's exactly the kind of candy store I was looking for, soda fountain and egg creams, and signs outside that said Breyer's or Sealtest Ice Cream. None of that I saw, not spaldeens, cigars, or newspapers outside. What the hell has happened to the New York I loved as a kid? Can't anything stay the same?
Dear Fred, I know how you feel, I went back to my old neighborghood on Kings Highway in Brooklyn, and walked both sides of the street from Coney Island Ave to Ocan and back, and did not see one thing. I settled for a Carvel and A Yoohoo. My first job as a kid was in a Candy Store on Kings Highway, and saw my old bosses daughter, who still ran the place. They said the Dept of Health became stricter in the law, and most places had to close their fountains, and now serve pre packed ice cream and sodas. The next best place I guess is something like Johnny Rockets and other 50 type resturaunts. I guess it is true We Can Never Go Home Again Bob
Hey guys, if you are into memories go to www.classmates.com"> , register but DO NOT pay the $25. Go to your own High School Graduating Class and then click on "message board". You will then go to a free subtalk type forum for your alma mater only!! You might find old friends but even if you don't there will be some nice memories in the threads. Be forewarned though, it is not laid out as good as this site, it is in almost like usenet format. Let me know how it worked out.
Hey guys, if you are into memories go to href="http://www.classmates.com">www.classmates.com , register but DO
NOT pay the $25. Go to your own
High School Graduating Class and then click on
"message board". You will then go to a free subtalk
type forum for your alma mater only!! You might
find old friends but even if you don't there will be
some nice memories in the threads. Be forewarned
though, it is not laid out as good as this site, it
is in almost like usenet format. Let me know how it
worked out.
Fred, I'm sorry to hear that they're all gone. I have been gone from NY for a lot of years so I didn't know. My niece keeps telling me that change means progress. I'm not so sure about that.
I heard several months ago that Spaulding was once again making the famous "Spaldeen" that we used to use for punchball or stickball. I tried to buy one at two different sporting goods stores here in the "country", and each time the clerk looked at me as if I had taken leave of my senses. They didn't seem to know what I was talking about. I decided that maybe they could only be purchased in NY, but if the candy stores are gone, where would you go to buy a "Spaldeen"?
Karl B
It's been a long time since I've had an eggcream.
Karl: The guy who looked at you like you had lost your mind never had one himself if he didn't know what a spaldeen was. Even here in California when I first moved here I was asked about them. You hear them mentioned on tv even today. As far as they went, we used them for stickball which we played not in the street but against a hand ball wall with a box from the arm pits to the knees. The width was that of a strike zone. I won two stickball tournaments in Queens in 1954 before I moved. That was my game. I missed it badly when I moved. I even like stickball better than baseball. I think if you did not grow up in New York in the 1940's and 50's you really missed out on a lot of living. When we explain that later generations, they haven't a clue. That's too bad---but not for us
When I mobed from Brooklyn to LA as a teenager. Nobody knew what a Spauldeen was, (1958) or even what stickball was. Later on, I met some transplanted NYC people, and we got up out own Stickball games, with the wall as a backstop. We had to use tennis balls. It was not the same
Bob: Where is California did you move to? I lived in Downey from l954-1969 and now live in Arcadia. My new friends did hear of spaldeens but showed no interest in playing stickball since there were plenty of fields and we could take batting practice or play over-the-line any time we wanted. Within two years I was playing Babe Ruth Baseball and had gotten over my stickball fixation.
9/19/99
Now wait a minute guys!! All this talk about Spaldeen's, wasn't there a Spaldeen knockoff called the Pennsy Pinkie? This is the late 50's,early 60's were talking about. Either Spaldeen or Pennsy had two varieties,the HIGH bounce or the LOW bounce? Some balls!!
Bill Newkirk
I Moved to No. Hollywood, for 18 months, then to the Baldwain Hills/Culver City Area, I lived mostly in the San Fernando Valley until the 1994 Northridge Earthquake, where I lived right on top of it, lost a lot of momentos, moved to Vegas. Still have family in NYC so I go back every year. I played HS ball, but still played stickball into my 20s
Bob: Did you get to New York this year and if so what subway trains did you ride? Do have a favorite? That Northridge earthquake was a doozy but I hope some of your valluables were insured. We have earth quake insurance, but there is a 10-20 thousand deductable on it, so we will catch hell financially if a big one hits around here. What kind of stickball did you play and did you play any of it here in California?
Fred: I guess my heyday was about 8 years earlier. Our neighborhood preferences were in the following order...
1 Punchball (lost a few balls on those flat roofs)
2 Stoopball (need a certain kind of stoop)
3 Stickball (lost too many balls on those flat roofs)
4 Slapball or Boxball ( lost interest as we got into our teens)
5 Handball (the nearest schoolyard wall was about 6 blocks away)
Can you really buy "Spaldeens" in CA when I can't in PA?
Karl B
Karl: Believe it or not, I saw a bunch of them in a Toys-R-Us Dept store some time ago. I smiled and wished I had a broomstick with me.
I have thought about introducing stick ball here in Arcadia where I live. I know a few students of mine who would like to play because we have the handball court right at school and I'm sure it would be a blast. However, they would find it's a lot harder to hit with a broomstick than a baseball bat.
Fred, There"s a Toys-R-Us only about 30 miles from me in York PA. I will check the next time I am over there. I've got to have one last "Spaldeen"!!!
While you're there, check out the Harley museum in York!!!
I guess you know that York is the Home of Harley Davison and there is something big going on there this weekend.
In Glendale there is the Lotus Candy Store on Myrtle Av @ 68th St, and a few blocks away, Sal's Sweet Shop @ 65th Pl. They are old inside, but have new plastic awnings. There are also one or two on Fresh Pond Rd. near Eliot. But these are not really near the subway. I guess the modern counterpart to the candy store is the stationery store. There are also still tobacco stores around that are like candy stores.
Sea Beach Man: There were 2 candy stores in my neck of the woods , "Chiefs" on 16th St & 4th Ave in Bklyn and "Moe's" on 17th and 4th, each equidistant from the Prospect Ave station on the 4th Ave line. Chiefs was my hangout The kind of place where if you cursed, you got tossed, plus Chief threatened to tell your folks---big jukebox in the back, pretzel rods 3 for a nickel. I read awhile back that Spalding introduced the spaldeen as a way of using the surplus inner cores of tennis balls---lost quite a few of them on 16th st.
Here's the route signs for the R-12-14-15 as delivered courtesy of the NYD Bulletins and my own records.
Broadway Express
Broadway Local
7 Av-Bronx Pk Exp
7 Av-Lenox Local
Lexington Av Exp
Lex-Jerome Exp
Pelham Line Exp
Lexington Av Local
Astoria Local
Flushing Local
Express-Local
Local-Express
Dyre Ave Local
Shuttle
No Passengers
Super Express
Larry,RedbirdR33
Tonite, (Sat. from 9:30 PM) till Sunday 1:30 PM and all next weekend, late Friday nite till early Monday morning, major reconstruction of a switch at Continental Ave. will severely interupt the E, F & R lines. Up to this point, all work has been done on the midnite hours, but at this point of the project, more time consuming work is being acomplished. This weekend, wooden timbers are being installed, and next weekend is the concrete pour with service out till Monday so the concrete can set. R service: suspended from Continental Ave. to 42/Times Square. E split service: D4 track at Roosevelt (Queens bound express track) to WTC. Express both directions Roosevelt to Queens Plaza. Also, Parsons/Archer to Van Wyck Blvd.-Briarwood where passengers can transfer to the F running on a 12 minute headway. Trains will relay on the Jamaica Yard lead to return to Parsons/Archer. F service from 179: will enter Continental on D3 track (Manhattan bound express). Conductor will not open doors, pull motorman will board rear car, pull train onto D4 (Queens bound express track to clear switch), then road motorman will enter against the normal direction of traffic on Queens bound express track into Continental when conductor will open doors. Train will continue on the Queens bound express track toward Manhattan. This is why the F is on a 12 minute headway as only 1 train at a time will be allowed due to no signals between Continental to north of Roosevelt when train will be crossed back to the Manhattan bound express track to enter Roosevelt normally. Then, F trains will be local to Queens Plaza. Queens bound: the F will operate local from Queens Plaza to Roosevelt and then non-stop to Continental on the local track. No local service in both directions from Roosevelt to Continental as the F, being the only service on a 12 minute headway, will be unable to handle the crowds. Bus service will be provided in both directions between Roosevelt & Continental with a twist: due to crowd control concerns at Roosevelt, the buses from Continental will discharge at 69/Fisk on the 7 line where passengers will be encouraged to use the #7 to Manhattan. Extra service provoded on the #7. Returning to Continental, buses will pick up at Roosevelt. Good luck! Any critics have a better way to do this?
Thanks for posting that. I'd seen the notices in the station and after reading the thing 3 times could still not figure out exactly what they were planning to do.
I think my solution will be to take the M since I haven't been over the willy-b since it reopened, and I'm going downtown anyway.
The posters and fliers about this problem make no sense.They refer to the shuttle bus as the " F shuttle. Most people assumed that the F wasn't running.
I believe it, but I can't understand it. When the crossover south of Roosevelt Av (local and exp) was being replaced several years ago, relay moves were required. Wrong railing was required only through Roosevelt Av. The F's were the only service from Queens Plaza to Continental Av with the equipment to 179th St operating on the local track making all stops. F's going to Manhattan ran express from Forest Hills to Queens Plaza. What's the difference?
-Stef
There is one difference past the Continental & Roosevelt diamonds: beyond the diamond at Roosevelt there is another switch which allows you to leave Roosevelt and wrong rail for a short distance on the Queens bound express track( D4) and cross over to the Manhattan bound express (D3). This is how the E trains are turning at Roosevelt, and what the move was when the Roosevelt diamond was replaced. At Continental, there is no such move possible from D4 to D3 south of Continental.
Right. And so it was simple to enough to do quick relay moves with the F through Roosevelt Av, without tying up traffic and worrying about lack of signal protection. What I can't understand is why the F is not stopping at stations between Roosevelt and Continental Avs. The Fs did make all stops to 179th St when the Roosevelt diamond was being replaced.
Because of crowd control concerns. On a normal weekend afternoon, the E is on an 8 minute headway, the F is on an 8 minute headway, and the R is on a 10 minute headway. Many times due to other G.O's all 3 are making all local stops in a given area. With this G.O., you only have 1 service operating every 12 minutes. The F trains will be jammed with E & F riders destined for points east (north in TA jargon) of Continental Ave. There will be no room on the F with its' 12 minute headway for all those passengers plus local passengers between Roosevelt & Continental. The ridership in Queens is just too heavy.
Due to a General Order on the IRT, beginning tonite (Sat.) from 9:30 PM till 1:30 PM Sunday, M trains will operate from Ninth Ave. to Chambers St. in both directions. This is so IRT passengers can get off at Atlantic Ave, transfer to the M at Pacific St., ride to Chambers St. where they can reboard the Lex line.
The M train I was on this afternoon had signs for Bay Parkway.
Speaking of the Lex G.O., the double crossover north of Bowling Green was in the process of being replaced.
-Stef
....last week this topic came up and many contributors gave their service plan proposals for whenever this project occurs. My proposal avoids routes diverging with each other which would cause delays to to other routes. I will avoid Sixth Ave. because they have enough trains there and when something goes wrong on the Manhattan Bridge, the F line has enough trouble handling the B, D, & Q reroutes. I don't know if the TA would have enough cars availiable to do this, but the C will have excess cars to use on the E. During the hours the C goes to Euclid, the E would replace it, although I doubt if a 5 minute headway would be able to be maintained for the rush hours like it's done now due to heavy volume on the Queens IND vs. the number of cars needed. During midnite hours when the C doesn't run to Euclid, terminate the E at Canal St. spur. With so few trains at that time, it won't interfere with the A. During the hours the C operates from 168, start it at 207 St. and run it express to 34/8 where it can relay back uptown on the spur track. During these hours, start the A at 168 St and have it run local thru Manhattan to replace the C which will be express. This will avoid switching congestion at Canal St. as the A & E will run together from 42/8 to Hoyt-Schmerhorn. With the A line being shorter distance wise but being local, running time and cars required should balance out. During the midnite hours, the A would return to 207 St. Now what do you guys have to say? Confusing for uptown passengers? Yes, but trains waiting for other trains to clear switches causes delays. This proposal avoids this.
I have a simpler idea. Eliminate the C all together during the construction and replace it with the E to Euclid. Run the A local to 145th St. and add a few extra rush hour B trains to pick up the slack. 10 minute headways were adequate during the midday hours during the Manhattan Bridge closing along the CPK West local in 1995.
If this is inadequate, run a few special peak direction (from 168 AM, to 168 PM) rush hour C locals on 10 minute headways, cutting appropriate A train service so as to continue smooth operation through the Cranberry St. tube.
How long will this switch be out of service? Working around the clock it should be able to be completed in 2 weeks at most.
As a reference point, when the diamond crossover at Metropolitan Ave. was replaced a few years ago, a 3 day weekend was needed. But there, it is rather easy to bring in new material and discard the old since the pieces were loaded onto work trains and dropped/picked up at Fresh Pond Yard, with the materiel loaded/unloaded onto flat-bed tractor/trailers; also the switch area is all ballast. At WTC, the main line at Canal St. will be needed to ferry material in and out via flat cars, and work trains will need to move against the normal flow of traffic at Canal St. either on the way in to the work site or on the way out delaying main line service, eventhough these movements would be made during the midnite hours. Finally, the switch area at WTC is all concrete. Most likely all this would have to be removed with jackhammers. And that phase alone may take two weeks. Again, all that heavy old concrete would have to be taken away on the work trains.
Bill, I have an idea. While the switch is being replaced wouldn't it make sense to terminate the E at 34th and 8th and relay back on the spur to Archer Av? The E could operate on the express track both ways. The A and C, meanwhile could operate on the local track both ways between 59th St and Canal St.
What do you think?
-Stef
I couldn't go along with that because the A would have to be crossed over to the local track upon entering 59/Columbus Circle. That would put the A, B & C on the local track there. As it is, many times a downtown B arrives on the local track at the same time a downtown D arrives on the express. So one has to wait for the other to enter the Sixth Ave. route. This may cause even more congestion delays.
If you can't do that, then the E will have to go to Euclid Av with the A and C. If the Cranberry St tunnel can accomodate the capacity, then this shouldn't be a problem.
If things get complicated, then cut the C to a rush hour only service since the E would have to run 24/7 anyway.
Thats what I said. Reduce C service to a few trains from 168th st AM/to 168 PM on ten minute headways and make the A stop at 163/155 24/7.
The B division does not have enough cars on the roster to allow the E to terminate at Euclid with all the other lines status quo. That is why I swapped to A & C uptown as per my original post and terminated the C at 34/8. Even with that, the equipment will have to be stretched thinner than it is now.
If this happens, they should run the E along it's normal route to
Canal Street. From here, it will switch over to the A and C lines
and run to Jay Street-Borough Hall via the Cranberry Street Tunnel.
At Jay Street-Borough Hall, the E should wicth over to the F tracks
and run express to Church Avenue and have the G be extended to
Church Avenue until the swicth work is finished.
James Li
Impossible because the Cranberry St. tunnel can't handle the A, C and E lines at rush hour. Cutting back A and E service would be out of the question.
Kill the C, replace it with the E in Brooklyn.
Well, if none of these ideas were plausible, the last thing that I can come up with is to let the E switch off of the 8th Avenue Line at West 4th St and travel on the 6th Avenue tracks to 2nd Avenue. How does that sound??? You can after all, turn equipment back at 2nd Av.
-Stef
Or you could just continue it on through the Rutgers tunnel to Brooklyn, then run it as an express from Jay St. to Church Ave. Of course, that would require at least three to four more E trains to maintain schedule, which the Jamaica yard doesn't have.
A motorman shot that idea down when I proposed it because of the nature of that interlock, which would back up E and F trains too much during rush hours to be feasible.
I see the C train being the odd train out in any reroute plan.
If the switch is attached to the concrete, can't it just be unscrewed and the new parts brought in? Why do they need to jackhamer the old concrete? Does that also need to be replaced? I thought it was mainly the rails that wore out as trains roll over them. I would expect the concrete to last longer, being that it's not a moving part.
When the TA replaces a switch, they also replace the track, ties, third rail, etc. And if it's a cemented area, they jackhammer the cement.
Wasn't the x crossover now being replaced just outside 71-Continental set in concrete as well? The 2 crossovers at Canal St. were also in cement and they were replaced in about 4 weeks.
I believe you're correct. Brian
I thought the area south of Continental was a ballast roadbed.
I'm not sure. But I know it will probably be put in concrete when the new one is installed.
I don't know if the concrete has to be replaced or not. I am only giving possible work which may be required. Basically, the rails rest on ties which on turn rest on concrete. Eventually, the concrete cracks from the weight from the trains over a period of years. That was certainly the case in the Montague St. tube when that work was done about 10 years ago.
The advertising company which puts up the posters in the subway cars posted the WillyB closure posters less than a week before the date of the actual closure. Now, the bridge has been reopened for 2 1/2 weeks and the posters are still up in the ENY cars. Since they are screwed into the wall, the TA workers are unable to remove them. Please guys, take them down. You are confusing the passengers and they are justifiably complaining to the train crews, something the crews have no control over. TAKE 'EM DOWN NOW! please.
Tell them to call control center at their 800 number, 800-722-2116. They have more power than you do on this site and less tolerance when passengers call them directly :-)
OK! If you could go back in time and tell the engineers to build a section differently than it is now, what would it be and why. DO NOT mention the Manhattan Bridge- I already know it is on all of our minds!
Here's Mine:
Build IND II, leave the World's Fair line and tie the PATH into the subway at Astor Place IRT.
Better yet, extend the Worlds Fair Line to LaGuardia...also extend the H&M to Grand Central*.If there had been a LaGuardia Airport line running thru Flushing Meadow, O'Malley MIGHT have been tempted to keep the Dodgers in New York...If the H&M had run thru to Grand Central, the Flushing might not have built thru to Times Square. The two crucial IND2 lines that SHOULD hve been built were of (of course), the Second Ave line,and the extension of either the Queens Blvd or Flushing lines further out into Queens...
*Maybe aconnection between the two lines would have been made...
According to the original posting we can have any fantasy we want, right?
As long as this is fantasy land have them extend the 179 St Jamaica "E" & "F" (no Jamaica Center in my fantasy) straight down Hillside to Post Av (Merrick Av) down Merrick Av to my block in East Meadow.) I would have them give me my own private car (an R-1 with couches, a kitchen, TV, the Internet, and my own motorman's controls.) By the way, there would be transfers to the LIRR at East Williston on Hillside, Westbury on Post Av, and Salisbury Plains on Merrick Av. (The Central line is still there)
Let's see, the perfect fantasy. I've lived on the Brighton Line all my life. Wouldn't it be great if they would make it 4 track from Prospect Park to Brighton Beach? And even better for me, if they would have a stop at Sheepshead Bay? I'm tired of having to walk from Ave Z & Ocean Ave all the way to Neck Road to get the train.
I assume the post was in the spirit of irony.
You should be wishing that the Racetrack branch was preserved and made a regular run. Then you would only have to walk to Ocean Avenue between X and Y.
It's funny you mentioned that Paul. I have plans to address the next meeting of the Community Board and ask them to condemn all the property that is on the former right of way of that branch, and to rebuild the tracks and run R 1/9's. I need all the support I can get on this one. My doctors think I need a change in meds. Did that branch end around Corbin Place a little North of Brighton Beach?
Part of Corbin Place (named after LIRRs Austin Corbin) is the ex-r.o.w. of the Manhattan Beach Line.
You can still see remnants of the ramps and tunnel under the Brighton embankment south of Neck Rd. for the race track branch which ended, as I said, at Ocean Ave. between X and Y.
>>>>You can still see remnants of the ramps and tunnel under the Brighton embankment south of Neck
Rd. for the race track branch which ended, as I said, at Ocean Ave. between X and Y. <<<
This sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com
Are the ramps and tunnel in plain view, ie. will I have to scale barbed wire and junkyard dogs to see anything?
Yes, at least they were a few years ago. Overgrowth of bushes and weeds is your biggest enemy.
The best view was on the E16th Street side, where the Manhattan Beach part of the embankment used to be. I don't know whether any houses have been built there lately--it's a very narrow strip but that hasn't stopped some builders.
You either need to ask someone who lives in the neighborhood now or else take a peek yourself.
The earthen ramps on both sides were clearly visible from the street, but even if these are obscured by underbrush etc., the tunnel portals where the southbound race track spur passed under the embankment should make a decent picture.
I just did a little reconnaissance on the E.16th St. They did build a new strip of houses here. At the corner of Ave X and E.16th there is a community garden fenced in. I don't know if this was the spot where it was easy to spot the cut-off. You can see from the street concrete walls, but I couldn't make out the curving cut-out. I will be going in the city this morning, and I'll see if I can tell from the track side if the cut-off is still visible. As usual, so far, no one has supported my idea posted yesterday to raze all the housing there and reopen the spur.
If they rebuild the track there it would be a great idea, but the spur needs somewhere to go to.
On my way back on the D train this afternoon, fortunately I woke up off the floor at Kings Highway. It's hard to tell about that cut-off. On my earlier post, I thought it might be right at the corner of X and E.16. The turn out used to be very noticeable from the train and from the street. I even remember when they were putting up the new stretch of houses, it looked like they didn't tear up the wall. I remember thinking then that maybe it would be too costly to demolish those walls. This afternoon it looked like the turnout might be a little south of X & E.16 . But I'm not sure.
As far as your remarks Sarge, I think the important thing to do first is tear all those houses down. This way we'll be able to tell if the turn out is still there. Then we can worry about where it goes. If you have to have a place, well, we can appropiate 2 lanes on the Belt Parkway, and have an express out to the airport. Or maybe run a line out to Breezy Point over the water. Build it so the trains can go 70mph, and then we'll have a real speed run. What difference does it make where it goes? Think of all the jobs that will be created, and the kick backs that I will be getting.
Paul, speaking of the Manhattan Beach branch of the LIRR, I think the old remnant of the embankment over by Ave. M (alongside Edward R. Murrow H.S.) is no longer there. I haven't ridden the Brighton Line in awhile, but could have sworn on my last trip I didn't see it (this would have been approx. 2 years ago).
Doug aka BMTman
At the National Museum of Racing-Hall of Fame in Saratoga they have pictures of the Gravesend, Sheepshead Bay, and Coney Island Racetracks.
Send a branch of the Fulton IND out to JFK airport, with local stops at 76th, 84th, Cross Bay Blvd, then run it under Aqueduct racetrack, to have it surface along the north side of JFK.
The Culver Shuttle is still around, with a flyover junction to the existing Culver line and existing connection to Church Avenue.
Wayne
Convert the LIRR Bay Ridge branch into subway service. This will produce a true crosstown line and connect Bay Ridge/Bensonhurst with Midwood, Flatbush, Canarsie, Brownsville. Hook it up at ENY-Broadway Junction.
Lots of natural transfers: working west:
Avenue H (D line), Avenue I (F line), New Utrecht/62 St (B, M, N); connect to N train tracks somewhere between Ft Hamilton Pkway and 4th Avenue. Seems like a slam dunk to me.
I'd settle for a few less S curves in the PATH tunnel around Christofer Street.
Of course it would have been nice if they put the NYCentral (or its predecessor's) main line under ground South of Grand Central instead of progressivley moving the terminus North. Would have solved part of the access to downtown problem. Similar thought about not abandoning the Atlantic Avenue tunnel.
And how about a PATH extension instead of LRV from Hoboken North to a point opposite 125th Street and then a tunnel from there under 125th Street to LGA.
Here's a new thread where I'd like some input. List images (posters, photos, artwork) related to New York City transit that have become 'classic' icons, leaving an immediate impression/recognition on populations worldwide. Below are three that I could think of:
1. Marilyn Monroe in white billowing dress above the subway grating.
2. The famous "French Connection" poster image of dope dealer about to fall backwards after being shot by Gene Hackman on steps of the el.
3. Jackie Gleason behind the wheel of his "Ralph Cramden bus" w/head out the window and Alice and Ed Norton beside the window.
Doug aka BMTman
They should have made Ralph a trolley, subway or El Motorman.
Or for a real twist to the story line, he could have had a dark secret family history. He could have been the sone of the Malbone St wreck motorman.
Anybody interested in writing a new novel or screen play with that kind of theme.
Maybe I'll do it myself.
How 'bout this?:
Thanks Jeff. That's a very good example!
(Even though it's a variation on the one I had mentioned).
Doug aka BMTman
Although I can think of plenty images that WE (at SubTalk) would recognize in NYC I don't know about immediate worldwide population recognition. If you take the NYC requirement out, how about The end of the graduate with Dustin Hoffman and I can't remember the girl's name (Elaine was the character) sitting in the back of the GMC bus (in the wedding dress)Rosie Parks on the famous GMC bus.
Well, I think Rosa Parks would qualify. I don't think there is an immediate "light bulb" that goes off in the minds of audiences for the scene you mentioned in the "Graduate". That movie's most memorable scene is the one always associated with the ads: Hoffman outlined by the bare leg of Bancroft.
Here's another one: "Taking of Pelham One, Two, Three" poster of IRT car with machine-toting silhouette of man in the doorway.
There are probably lots more, but right now the mind's a blank. (probably because I'm just returning from the EXCELLENT Waterfront Railway Tour....see my post to come..)
Doug aka BMTman
The Girl with Dustin Hoffman was Katherine Ross, How about the car chase scene with the B Train in French Connection
Well, I'm not including 'scenes' since that is going further than is needed. What I mean is something that is almost like a 'trademark' in our minds about NY subways and buses, without getting into the body of a film, or TV show. Just an image -- or a song that is known throughout the world that is related to NYC transit (see one of the other postings).
Doug aka BMTman
The one that comes to my mind and sticks there is Billy Strayhorn's classic composition, as
performed by Duke Ellington:
Take the "A" Train
Wayne
You NEED a picture of an R-10!!!! That spells "A" Train!!!
It sure did for many many years, but today, the R38 (and the R44 too) is the standard-bearer of the "A" train. The commemorative they did earlier in this year (with Wynton Marsalis and his band aboard) was done aboard an R38. I don't have any pictures of R10s; they were long gone by the time I got my current camera.
Wayne
Mr. R-10, William Padron, has photographed those cars quite extensively, as I understand.
That little thumbnail is my photograph - I wouldn't use somebody else's work without their express permission. I've seen some of William Padron's photos in the R10 section - they're beautiful.
Wayne
"Take the A Train" should be the theme song of the NYC subway system. Or the anthem, if you will.
The R-10s and the A train - an unbeatable combination.
This may be stretching it a bit but, how about the old song (I think it was from "Guys and Dolls")
New York, New York
It's a wonderful town
The Bronx is up and the Battery's down
The people ride in a hole in the ground
Hey, Bob!
Good to see you got home -- and fast!
Yes, that counts since it is 'classic' and known throughout the world.
I would also put Duke Ellington's "Take the A Train" as another in that categoory.
Did you make it to the cleaners' on time?
Doug aka BMTman
Actually, it's from On the Town (Bernstein/Comden/Green).
I knew it was one of those musicals with Sinatra. I picked the wrong one.
How about this? Crowds of people, especially in the past, arriving at Stillwell Ave heading to the Beach?
There's a sports team on the West Coast (baseball, I think) that took along its streetcar-avoidance name from Brooklyn when it abandoned New York in search of the almighty dollar. It still uses a form of the 'trolley dodger' name, I've heard.
(It may well be that the original streetcar reference is just an urban legend, but lots of people believe it and I've never seen proof to the contrary.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam, NY
Isn't there another team on the west coast about a couple hundred miles north of the one you're talking about that used to play baseball in a polo stadium in Manhattan who also left for the almighty buck??
P.S. Walter O'Malley did more to change Bklyn negatively than the disappearance of the candy stores and cafeterias!!!
9/20/99
That reminds me back in the 70's when I work in Lafayette Radio Electronics in Brooklyn. Store manager Julius Bloom who lived in the Bronx was fending off some comments from impatient customers when in final frustration blurted these words I can't forget. "For crying out loud gimme a break,EVER SINCE THE DODGERS LEFT BROOKLYN YOU'VE NEVER BEEN THE SAME". Words of wisdom from a Bronxite.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, the Dodgers -- Brooklyn version that is -- qualifies.
(As far as I am concerned once The Dodgers relocated to La La Land, they should have changed the name of the team altogether.)
Doug aka BMTman
Unfortunately, two images that stand out in the pop-culture image of the NYC Subway, or transit in general, are (in order of commonality):
1) Stark stations and cars, dimly-lit, completely covered in graffiti, and filled with tough punks. In connection with this, I have seen a book of photos from the 70s or 80s by some photographer whose name I can't recall, entitled "The Subway." It's classified as a photgraphic arts book rather than a railway/subway book or New York City book. It may be a fair depiction of the subway in that period or it may be that the pictures suffer from the particular photographer's view of the world, cities in general, New York City in particular, and/or subways. Nevertheless, "stark," "forbidding," "decaying," and "dangerous" are the four most succinct descriptions of the subway as depicted in these photos. This popular image is repeated over and over again in movies, television shows, books, etc..
2) That painting (1920s? 1930s?) of the despondent woman (who, to me, looks more like she's dyspeptic from lunch than despondent) at the center of a despondent and/or angry crowd of commuters in a stark subway mezzanine. Does anyone here know which painting I'm referring to? Clearly, this painting IS the result of the artist's view of the world, of cities (he clearly doesn't like them), and of New York City (hated the most because it is the exemplar of what's best and worst in cities). And the station in the painting is stark even though it is clean, well-lit, etc.
The picture in a subway station with the woman in
the middle and with a
bunch of haunted looking people who are hanging
around, either in cubby holes or going down stairs
or
walking, was done by George Tooker. He was of a
school of art called magic realism. I have a copy
of that
picture hanging on the wall. The people are all
haunted and isolated. I tell visitors that this is
a
picture of my extended family taken during a family
reunion. I'm glad someone asked about Tooker.
In terms of haunted people, on a recent post I asked
if people were familiar with the opening of Woody
Allen's Stardust Memories which took place on an old
electric car, either Jersey Central or Erie
Lackawana. My family was also used for that
gathering of lost and depressed souls. Anybody
familiar with that opening scene?
Would anyone seriously object to leaving the Labor/Management Relations posts for some other site? Maybe Dave would like to set up something called "UnionTalk." Considering that it is just as illegal to strike against the TA as it is to violate a newspaper's copyright by re-printing its articles verbatim, and therefore illegal to urge people to strike against the TA in posts on this site, Dave should be just as concerned about such posts as he is about copyright infringement. Keep Dave out of jail. Post your labor relations beefs elsewhere.
> Maybe Dave would like to set up something called "UnionTalk."
I'd be happy if it existed but I'm not interested in hosting it. Maybe a Yahoo Club?
-Dave
I agree. It's getting too political here. This is supposed to be an informative site, but nothing personal, which is what my friends out here have done.
Nothing personal, but if the posters feel so badly about how transit is unfair, maybe it would be better to stop complaining and simply leave. Isn't that better than suffering aggravation???
I haven't been in transit, so I don't know much about the TA's practices. In no way is it rosy!!! I only wish that it were as simple as putting the brake handle into it's valve and not worrying about anything else. I'm aware of the fact that Transit has constant rules and regulations that all operating personnel must follow. Do their constant rules and regulations seem unfair? That's possible, but since I haven't been in the middle of TA politics, so I won't give a definitive answer. When I take the T/O exam, I make myself aware of the fact that I'm taking on responsibilities that accompany the title T/O. You don't have to agree with everything that the TA put's in your face, but each operating member has a job to do. If there is any unfairness, leave the Unions to take care of it. That's it....
Dave doesn't need the unecessary headache, so we have to think about what we say and what we do. For all we know, there maybe posters out there who work at 370 Jay St, and are reading these messages. Then what? Heads could roll!
-Stef
I don't think heads will roll. Neither do I think the TA's rules are unfair. What I do think is wrong is the selective enforcement, and double standard. Ie: safety when it's convenient.
But most of all it's the guilty till proven innocent policies, and harsh penalties that seldom fit the infraction.
And by the way, I don't urge people to strike. I support one, and that is a first ammendment right. The Taylor law cannot prohibit free speech.
Thanks for the clearing that up.
-Stef
I have no problem leaving the Labor/management debates outside if everybody else does. But you can't expect to be taken seriously about 'jail' simply for allowing posts about "calling for strikes". Would the editor of the Times go to jail for printing such calls from Willy James? How about the head of CBS news?
Having said that, the stated purpose of SubTalk is to discuss legitimate Transit related topics. Labor/management issues permeate every other aspect of transit operation. They are inseperable. Again, I have no objection to not discussing them but you leave precious little that can be discussed.
I think there's a clear line between discussing labor and management and calling people Satan. It seems that every time that the union issues have come up it becomes a heated argument with a lot of name-calling but not much in terms of constructive criticism. If the union members want a place to sound their rallying cry that's one thing but the discussion here goes a long way from simple facts to strong ad hominem attacks. Lets keep Satan out of it and stick to the facts and issues and keep the rest to a minimum.
OK. No more Satan.
Of course, it's up to Dave to determine what is and is not appropriate to the site.
However, it's really hard to appreciate a great deal of transit history, and how we got where we are today, without knowing the issues that led to labor disputes. Do you know what the issues were that led to the BLE strike of Novemeber 1, 1918 and the BRT's resistance, which were factors in the Malbone Street wreck? Why did the IRT strike of 1920 fail? What change in the handling of labor relations made the IND the system with the most black motormen in the 1940's and '50? What were the passions in the '50s that led to the MBA/CBA subway strike and the breaking of those unions? How did the results of that strike impact the TA to this day?
I find the discussions, especially where they involve current operating personnel, very interesting. It's transit history in the making, so to speak.
I like that. Please fill in the answers to the questions. I'd like to know. Especially the MBA/CBA strike. As much as I know, I'm not omniscient. There's always room to learn something new.
the BLE strike of Novemeber 1, 1918
The BLE was trying to organize motormen and motor switchmen who were members of the company union. Their efforts were assisted by the BRT's refusal to increase wages adequately in the face of wartime inflation. The immediate cause of the strike involved some number of men who had been dismissed, allegedly for union activities. The War Labor Board ruled that these men had to be reinstated. The BRT submitted this recommendation to the company union, who were to consider the reinstatements. This slap in the face was considered evidence of bad faith by BLE, and was the proximate cause of the strike.
Why did the IRT strike of 1920 fail?
Actually, I'm not certain whether this was an IRT or BRT strike. My source notes have "Interborough" with a "?", but I haven't been able to confirm this--I quick look in a 1920 newspaper would do the trick, but I don't have one handy.
Anyway, the strike August 29, 1920. After about 3 weeks men began to get cold feet and began to rush back to work. The coup de grace was administered when the company said that all that did not report before 12 noon September 8, forfeited their seniority.
What change in the handling of labor relations made the IND the system with the most black motormen in the 1940's and '50?
Civil service. Competitive tests gave black men the opportunity to compete in a color blind fashion for the reponsible operating jobs on ICOS with good pay and benefits.
What were the passions in the '50s that led to the MBA/CBA subway strike and the breaking of those unions?
( Based largely on discussions I had many decades ago with people who were MBA supporters [disclaimer] ).
TA motormen were split more or less half and half between the MBA and TWU. I think it would be fair to say there was a lot of mistrust by MBA people against the TWU and its leadership. Part of this was probably due to the perception of the MBA as a craft union and the TWU as an industrial union. This was also the era in which charges of Communist sympathy against Quill and the TWU were strongest. The MBA men suspected (rightly, it would seem) that Quill wanted to break their union to consolidate all power in himself.
When the MBA called their strike, the TWU did not support it. This was the strike in which non-striking motormen were allowed to sleep on company property and take trains out as much (it was said) as 16 hours a day. They were supposed to have been paid straight time for the first 40 hours on the property (including sleeping) and overtime after that, as long as the strike lasted.
It has been alleged since that the generous benefits paid to the non-striking motormen was reneged on, but of this I have no direct knowledge.
Anyway, the result was the breaking of the MBA and CBA. After that, Mike Quill and the TWU were the only noise in town.
How did the results of that strike impact the TA to this day?
Well, there are at least two ways to look at this. You could argue that Quill's hold on the entire transit system gave him the power to obtain huge increases for all operating employees in the 1965 strike, though he did not live to see the settlement.
The counter-argument is that Quill's hegemony set up the conditions where sweetheart contracts could be the order of the day.
On any of these accounts, I'll leave the discussion to current operating personnel who are a lot closer to the situation than I. I'd like to hear their judgments and opinions.
Hyperbole, of course. Dave's response to your post expresses my view better than I have. Your point about L/M issues being integral to many other aspects of transit is also well taken; but some posts, never yours, produce more heat than light. Preaching to the choir may be cathartic; otherwise, it's a waste of internet resources. At the least, if those who feel an uncontrolable urge to open their pressure relief valves would take the time to explain to the rest of the congregation, in a little more detail, why they are upset, we might learn something. For example, many of us who don't work for the TA might wonder why it is important to the decision to have an open exam (which means?) whether there is or is not a shortage? Shouldn't all exams be open to all who want to take them? Doesn't that provide the best pool of applicants? If not, why not? Posters who are too angry and upset to go beyond emotionally loaded generalities, are discussing religion and politics in a bar.
I could understand why union people would be upset with an open exam. Motorman has always been promotional. As a cop I would not like it if the Lieutenant's or Captain's exams were open to the general public. (Even though in the military people become officers right out of college)
And ROTC officers in the Army are often looked down upon. I remember one sergeant describing the process as "putting a college kid in a shaker with some milk and brass bars."
Yes, but at least the ROTC officers have had four years of part-time training on the way in.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, of course that's true.
I'm just making the point that in any industry, there's a concept of "paying your dues" whatever that amounts to.
The boss' son may be a crackerjack business person, but there'll still be muttering when he becomes first VP right out of college. That's why some business people start relatives low on the totem pole initially.
One of our friends said the following:
"Your point about L/M issues being integral to many other aspects of transit is also well taken; but some posts, ..., produce more heat than light."
I like a good debate as well as the next person & am often enlightned by the input from our union posters, but am just a turned off as anyone when the discussion gets out of hand.
Mr t__:^)
I support TTPFKAR46 and others' right to call for a strike which I consider illegal. While I may disagree with their opinions, I WANT them expressed as long as the ad hominem is left out. The Bill of Rights supercedes any statute.
The Transportation Professional has every right to express himself. My only question is how would his views or any others for that matter, impact the rest of us?
-Stef
The Transportation Professional is the coffee that will awaken us from our long slumber which began on Jan 20, 1981. Unions seek JUSTICE. Support Them.
Does anybody have an official NYCTA Subway map from Dec 11, 1988? That's where the Archer Av Extension opened.
I do, along with the brochure that explained all of the various service changes that went into effect that day. However, I don't own a scanner.
I have the same brochure somewhere. And I do have a scanner. But since I have oved away from NY, it is with the rest of the stuff boxed up in NYC with my parents. Perhaps when I go home to visit I'll find it.
I wish I had a scanner because I also have brochures explaining the N/R terminal switch in 1987 and the closing of Queens Blvd. and Metropolitian Ave. J stations in 1985.
Yes I have the full map. Please check your e-mail for a few messages.
Does anyone know where I can get timetables of the NYC subway system, both current and historical? I am especially interested in IRT and BMT in the 1950's and early 1960's.
Good luck. It seems to me that easily accessible public timetables are a very recent innovation. Service guides (like "the A train runs every 5 minutes during rush hour") are easier to find and are commonly attached to system maps (at least in the past 30 years or so).
They came out with station timetables in the mid 50 s but no route ones. I do not think there was any for the past 40 odd years until they came out with route ones a couple of years ago
I know when I was a kid,I saw some publication in the fifties that indicated running times of the various routes. Maybe I should have called the subject "route running times" rather than timetables. Does that help at all?
I HAVE TWO POCKET GUIDES FOR THE #7 AND D LINES FROM 1976 AND 1977. IT SAYS THEY WERE PUBLISHED BY
METRO TRANSIT SCHEDULES INC
2 PENN PLAZA, SUITE 1500
NEW YORK, NEW YORK 10001
244-3100
I PROBABLY PICKED THEM UP AT A MODEL RAILROAD FLEAMARKET IN JERSEY CITY MANY YEARS AGO
There were station timetables in the mid-1950s (out of a once large collection, I only have a few left--a flood in the cellar in our house in Brooklyn in the late 1950s wiped them out, along with my collection of "Mad" comic books--including "Mad" #1 and "Panic" #1).
The red-covered street guides (Geographia?) from at least the 1930s into the 1950s all had subway running times in the back along with routes for streetcars, buses, and trolley buses. There were mileage figures, too--that was how I figured that my high school trip from 69th Street (Bay Ridge) via the Fourth Avenue Special to Chambers and the Lexington Express to 86th Street (Yorkville) was 12.39 miles. I think I still have some of those around. They had fold-out maps pasted in the inside back covers.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I also lost treasures in floods in the basement of my Brooklyn two-family. Fairly complete Brooklyn transfer collections from the '50s. Street Guides. Maps. Rolled copies of The Subway Sun. Railroad magazines form the '30s and '40s. I literally don't remember what else, and guess I don't want to.
Arrrrrrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh.
The irony is that the floods, which reached as high as five feetm were caused by the backup of a storm sewer which was supposed to keep the basement dry.
Those guides were great. They also gave turn-for-turn trolley routes.
Thank you both. I believe the red covered map books were what I originally had - and lost. If you could find one and give me the publisher's name and address, maybe I could be lucky. Thanks again.
was in philidelphia in august and rode the market street line(the blue line)..loved the cars, they looked so clean and great seats. im knida upset that we in ny are waitinbg so long for new cars(espeically us on the Q). when are the new cars supposed to be here?
Hi, All!
Today's Tour was as perfect a trip as you could want. It great meeting up with Bob Anderson, Howard Fein and Peter Rosa once again. As well, I enjoyed meeting faxman, Kevin "Forgotten NY" Walsh, Paul (the biker), Robert and Alex L. for the first time.
I'll make this short since I will send Dave an unabridged version of the trip....
My meeting location was actually off by one street corner: it should have been 38th & 3rd NOT 39th & 3rd. Anyhow, I initally ran into Alex, faxman, Robert (w/Robert, Jr.) and Paul.
We investigated the SBK yard since -- lo and behold -- the gate was WIDE OPEN. We were able to walk some of the track and took a number of pictures (including the 1st group shoot) at that location. This was our first surprise of the day.
Moving on toward 2nd Ave., we stopped at the SBK yard, but there was really no action going on besides some NYCT RTS buses awaiting the scrap heap.
We walked down 2nd to 41st. where there is this cool warehouse that is missing it's lower two floors near the corner to allow for the freight trains to negotiate turns at the street intersection. I took a group shot there as well.
Next stop: New York Cross Harbor RR at 43rd and 1st. We were given permission to walk around the yard and look at the equipment (which we did). There were a number of stray railcar trucks which included three that were from former subway equipment. NYCH equipment consisted of two partially wrecked/scrapped diesels, two cabooses (one w/some witty graffiti) and a number of chemical cars all on one siding near the sidewalk.
Moving on, we walked along 1st Ave. southward to 55th St. where we entered BAT (Brooklyn Army Terminal). This was once a bustling industrail complex, particularly during the two World War years. There was even a small photo exhibit describing Elvis Presley's train trip to the Brooklyn Waterfront in 1958 when he entered the Army. It was at BAT where we had got the biggest surprise: two vintage coaches from a most certainly defunct rail line, coupled, and on an old rail-loading bay track inside the terminal building. . This, of course, was another grand group photo op for both the faxman and myself.
The most unique aspect of the trip had to be the incredibly picture-perfect weather conditions. Bright sun, cloudless sky, no humidity and slight breezes....it doesn't get any better than that!
Again, thanks to all who came -- hopefully next time around, everyone who missed it this time can make it -- a good time will be guarranteed!
Doug aka BMTman
Is the area around the yard quiet? Dangerous or is it pretty safe.
Also you mentioned that a gate was wide open. Was there any security?
The area is mostly industrial, so yeah, it was quite. There is the Costco Outlet across the street, so it isn't w/o people and lots of cars coming and going from the area.
As for the SBK area between 3rd and 4th Avenues: as far as I know that spot does not have security -- just a gated fence. It looked as though either the lock for the gate was busted from vandalism, or the last time a crew came through they neglected to lock it. Either way, it came in handy for photo ops :-)
(PS: TECHNICALLY, I know we weren't supposed to be on TA property, but THERE IS A SECOND GATE just before the 4th Ave. tunnel where the SBK joins with N and B line traffic. So, we were still separated from the actual revenue part of the system. And BTW, there were NO SIGNS posted anywhere stating NO TRESPASSING or that the property even belonged to the TA).
Doug aka BMTman
Yeah Doug, the trip was really great and more that I expected. It was good to me you and the guys. I just realized when I saw his name in print that Howard Fein does have a double celebrity name. The amount of cooperation and laissez faire of the people who had responsibility for the places that we were was wonderful. Thanks to all of them. It's nice to be able to explore a place, without having to jump if someone official comes by. The real high point was inside The Brooklyn Army Terminal where we discovered the two cars, the overhead ceiling, and where the guys figured out what those balconies were for. And to think we almost walked right past that experience. The scene inside will always remain in my head. It was really great meeting the guys. I forgot to ask if anyone wanted any copies of the old tape I had made of the R1/9's on LL and CC and some sounds of Philly Broad Street. And thanks Doug, I am changing my name from Paul C-49 Mack Bus to Paul the biker. As you all noticed I am not a Mack Bus. Great Day, thanks to all... Paul
What kind of a bike you have?
I don't think you'd let me into your club Sarge. It's a blue Panasonic, actually a woman's model, and it's human powered. Do you guys have any honorary memberships?
Yeah, 10% honorary membership but you still need a motorcycle. (The Honorary means you don't have to be law enforcement)
paul sorry my e-mail are not going though just wait till dave posted them on the site
Pure stroke of luck that we found the old RR cars in the Army Terminal Building, but many discoveries are pure luck...
Oh, a WISE guy! Woo-woo-woo-woo! Nyuk. nyuk! Here, pick two fingers- BONK!
It was a great trip. We were able to explore (with permission) the NY Cross Harbor yards and car floats and took many pictures. Our visit to the Brooklyn Army Terminal and seeing those old cars of the "Brooklyn Central Railroad" was really a bonus.
Thanks to Doug aka BMTman for organizing the trip! And thanks to all who attended, who made it very enjoyable. It was nice to meet a few more fellow Subtalkers that I hadn't met before.
just want to thank all my new friends for the great time. special thanks to doug for a great trip and nice weather. the pictures are in the mail
It sure was an interesting trip. Thanks much for your effort in putting it all together!
Just as an aside... The LAST bit of trolley overhead wire on any Brooklyn street was at the crossing of 3rd ave/BQE and the SBK until very recently. They just left the wire in the wooden trough all these years, and nobody bothered to take it down. It contains several different wire types stuck together, and several different hangar types, wacky repairs, and splicer plates. Interesting piece of work I must say. The trough still dangles from the highway towards the subway connection, but the wire was recently donated to the BHRA.
Yes, Jan, I believe your assessment is correct. I believe I've read that SBK trolley wire was up as late as 1963 (4?). I don't think there was wire up past that time -- maybe someone else could confirm?
Doug aka BMTman
I've uploaded some of the pictures I took on the Broklyn Waterfront Tour. They're at http://www.lirrhistory.com/wtrfrnt.html
To Doug aka BMTman and Dave Pirmann: please feel free to use any of the pictures if you add a page about the tour to NYC Subway Resources.
I will keep the pictures up for a week or so.
Sorry I missed the tour sounds like it was a good one !
Mr t__:^)
I was really stunned by the the roof of the freight train loading area inside Brooklyn Army Terminal. I think the buildings were 4 or 5 stories high and arching above it was the glass roof. When I looked at it,I wasn't sure if the glass was still in place. But its height and length which must be 5 or 6 freight cars in length was awesome. I was searching the web for Brooklyn Army Terminal, and came across some interesting sites. They once had an art exhibition there, and they commented on the space. The pictures that Faxman sent out didn't capture the whole roof. I hope to go back myself some day during the week and take a couple of shots of the roof.
>>>I was searching the web for Brooklyn Army Terminal, and came across
some interesting sites. <<<
Web addresses please?
Kevin, I got to a list of 39 sites, using webcrawler. That's www.metacrawler.com
The site that interested me at the time was www.swbidc.org/bat/default.htm Click on Area History for a information about the general history of the area.
I just went back there to be sure of what I'm telling you. I just did a search for South Brooklyn Railway, which produced 41 sites. The two that I took a quick look at were Abandoned Stations which had a whole detailed list of abandoned stations. It's post on a columbia university site. I don't know if we link to that or if it's the same as our information here. The SBK site looked like it had a whole history of SBK with a load of pictures. There are several sites with SBK reference, but try the one that says SBK
I hope this helps. Paul
The SBK website is the 12th one on Metacrawler's search list. It's: South Brooklyn Railway (SBK)
Hey, Paul, I think you hit upon Bill Russell's very well researched website called "Penny Bridge".
He has links regarding Bush Terminal, NYCH, BEDT, LIRR, etc.
Doug aka BMTman
As I recall from my visit to BAT during the Alliance for Downtown NY's open-house last fall, the coaches were repainted LIRR rolling stock.
They were all sealed when I was there. Were you able to tell what they are currently used for?
Also, did you guys get down to the big yard on the south side of the army terminal at all? It's had several dozen cars in it for a few weeks now, and it looks like they're building a new floatbridge right next to the sewage plant. I'm guessing this is going to be the new intermodal terminal for the Cross Harbor's joint-venture with Norfolk Southern. As a neighbor, I'd love to hear any other information anyone has...
[Also, did you guys get down to the big yard on the south side of the army terminal at all? It's had several dozen cars in it for a few weeks now, and it looks like they're building a new floatbridge right next to the sewage plant. I'm guessing this is going to be the new intermodal terminal for the Cross Harbor's joint-venture with Norfolk Southern. As a neighbor, I'd love to hear any other information anyone has...]
We didn't get down there, but while driving to the meeting spot I noticed quite a few freight cars in the yard. I had heard that freight activity had picked up, but nonetheless I was surprised at how many cars were in the yard. I didn't notice any floatbridge construction, but then again I didn't know about it and therefore wasn't looking for it.
[As I recall from my visit to BAT during the Alliance for Downtown NY's open-house last fall, the coaches were repainted LIRR rolling stock.
They were all sealed when I was there. Were you able to tell what they are currently used for?]
Both coaches were still sealed. They don't seem to be used for anything, other than a historical memento sort of thing. One thing that was clear is that the coaches are there to stay. A newer addition to the building has blocked off the tracks.
When we looked at the cars from the main walkway between the 2 tracks, you couldn't see into the cars because of some dark plexiglass or plastic covering the windows. And that would have been all that we observed, if not for one of the guys having gone around on the other side of the cars. There there were no windows, and you could see into the cars. The cars were wrecks inside. It looked like the air conditioning vents from the ceiling had fallen down to the floor. It was a mess, but what a surprise to see the other side and the real inside of the cars.
I think Doug suggested that maybe they were using the cars as part of a film shoot and they just fixed up the front of the car. While I'm writing this, I'm thinking of an Amos and Andy episode where the Kingfish takes Andy up to the country to buy a house on some property that the Kingfish owns. Only he won't let Andy go into the house, because it was just a prop for a movie that was shot there years before. (Amos and Andy have had their PC problems, but it had the same kind of heart and humanity that
the Honeymooners and Sargeant Bilko had. I loved their opening theme music --- called the Perfect Song)....
What kind of cars are they?
The Brooklyn Central Railroad cars were former LIRR coaches.
Doug aka BMTman
i think they depowered mp-54's. they had the mta logo under the new paint. did the lirr have head end power cars? there where vents for some type of engine on one of the cars.
Actually, it is the New York Cross Harbor RR/New York & Atlantic Interchange yard.
Here's the kicker about our tour: when I returned to NYCH's main office to thank them for allowing us access to their yard, the Rep I meet with said we could have walked the tracks to the big interchange yard and checked out the improvements/renovations there. Bummer....maybe in another tour.
Doug aka BMTman
Just got into the office- closed yesterday for the holiday. Great trip! That image of seeing the West End trains coming through the open cut and turning into the tunnel will stay with me a long time. I never knew there was so much to Brooklyn's industrial underbelly. That Brooklyn Army Terminal was something else. I doubt most of the people who work there realize its historial significance. As always, it was great to see the people we've gotten to know through cyberspace.
Strangely, none of the many construction diversions scheduled for this past weekend seemed to occur. The 'R' ran between Manhattan and Queens; the '4' ran between Manhattan and Brooklyn; the 'B' ran via West End to Coney; the 'F' ran through to Jamaica- everything as usual! Maybe the storm postponed a lot of the projects. The only irregularity I noticed was that I got R-68 propers on the 'B' both to and from the trip (as opposed to 68As), the 'E' seemed very 46-heavy and the 'A' seemed very 38-heavy for a weekend. I don't know if this all portends the beginning of route assignment changes.
Hope to see more of the 'gang' at Shore Line Columbus weekend.
Hi, Howard.
Did you get to take your son on that Canarsie L trip Sunday?
I recall you mentioned that as we were splitting up over by Costco.
Doug aka BMTman
I didn't have enough time to go to Canarsie on Sunday as we were having my in-laws for dinner that night and had to be home by 5:00.
Instead, us guys went up to Fort Tryon Park, a great place for views and hills- provided you go downhill. We got 38s both ways on the 'A'; my son had never been on this model and got a kick out of the modern-artesque design of the overhead bars. Their speed on the CPW stretch is much better than on the 44s. I wanted to walk the long entrance tunnel from Broadway to the 191st Street station on the '1' but it would have required a long walk uphill on Broadway from Dyckman. We did get a kick out of the elevator for 190th on the 'A'; the walls were covered with pictures of various animals courtesy of the operator. Also saw a nice, large live rat on the center unused platform at Columbus Circle. I guess it thought that platform was still in use, which has not been the case since 1974.
Will try Canarsie another weekend.
That rat probably thought the R-10s were still in service.
I almost missed seeing it, because I looked on President St between 4th & 5th. But sure enough in a lot on 4th there was one of Septa's PCC. Doug, did that just get here, or has that been one of the cars that they've had?
Paul. Glad you were able to get over there -- I too thought it was on the President Street side of the building.
As far as I know it is a recent acquisition of Bob D. and Company.
I went up there and too a shot. You probably got there before me as I was chatting with Alex and Bob at the Costco parking lot.
Talk to you later -- I'm getting ready to watch De LaHoya vs. Trinidad fight....
Doug aka BMTman
First of all, the empty lot is just off the corner of Union Street (B division - R train to Union Street).
Second for more details about the car - check out a website on Septa Pcc cars linked from this webpage.
If you look back over past posts (some by me) there are all sorts of rumors about the building and PCC car including turning the bathhouse into a gallery, food court of fancy restaurants and the PCC to be turned into a coffee shop.
What's the real scoop.
9/22/99
TO Hart Bus and others. I don't know if this was brought up in earlier threads but try this out:
www.gowanus.com
Bill Newkirk
nope, the car on 4th av has nothing to do with us. the car was brought there a few years ago by a mr. richman, who is doing something in the bathhouse. however, no one really knows what, or why the car was brought there, although i heard they have alot of video and internet equipment in the bath house. supposedly, he has 6 more stuck in philly. the problem with these philly cars, is they use pennsylvania broad gage, which is 5'-2 1/8". regaging them is a real beast, it requires tearing down the trucks and differentials and pulling the axles, etc.
Thanks for the info, Bob.
Doug aka BMTman
Nope, its not a BHRA car. ex-SEPTA 2739 is an independent project of the Brooklyn Lyceum (aka Brooklyn Bathhouse #4). She and 6 sister cars still in Philly were bought by Eric Richmond of that group. It is essentially complete, but is missing some glass and minor parts. It needs to be regauged before it can run anywhere here. I have been in contact with Eric offering assistance, but other Lyceum projects are taking his time. It was stored inside the bathhouse for a time, but now it is outside in the lot nextdoor. I just hope nothing happens to it, its a nice car in good condition.
This is certainly unusual news. I was under the impression that the SEPTA car over there was being stored for Bob Diamond's Trolley Museum in Red Hook (only about a neighborhood away).
Am I to believe that these trolleys will be restored as PART of the overall restoration of the Bathhouse? And would they be 'static' display cars, or 'fully restored' for street running once again?
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, I'm missing something. What is the Bathhouse all about?
Okay, this is abit off of the transit topic, but here's what I know about the bathhouse:
Back in the good ol' days when not everyone had a full bathroom, the city came up with these bathhouses, which -- not having been in one -- I understand they were something like a public swimming pool. Except you'd publicly bath in them (hence a men's side and a women's side).
I don't know when the one at 4th and President was closed, but I seem to recall that alot of these became health risks during the big AIDS scare of the 80s and the NYC Health Department subsequently had the remaining ones closed down (Also, from what I heard, these places were havens for homosexual promisquity).
I would assume that Kevin Walsh might know more about the historic bathhouses such as the one at President Street. You might want to check out his sight at: www.forgottenny.com
Hope I was able to help out.
Doug aka BMTman
Okay Doug. The Bathhouse refers to an actual bathhouse. I was just looking up in my old AIA guide to New York City. I know there was an old bath house still standing on the lower east side or thereabouts. They were built in the depression to provide swimming and bathing facilities for the poor. I didn't look around yesterday too much, but I do remember some sort of public building on 4th Ave, but I'm not sure if it's near President Street. There were a whole other class of bath houses in the 70's and 80's that were meeting places for gay people and it was these bathhouses that were closed due to major concerns about AIDS. I'm still not clear about what they're going to do with 8 or 9 PCC cars. Although if I can get some of your support, perhaps we could run them on the spur line that I'm going to rebuild off of the D train around Ave X, as soon as I am able to demolish a couple of hundred homes. What an idea!!!
Yeah, Paul, I'm baffled about this too. Is the bathhouse going to be turned into some kind of Trolley museum? Or is the bathhouse going to become a Trolley shed for restoration and shelter of privately-owned trolley equipment? Your guess is as good as mine.
The most unusual aspect to those SEPTA PCCs is the fact that they have nothing to do with the BHRA. As I posted earlier, I thought they were acquisitions of Bob Diamond and his group.
Doug aka BMTman
Neither. The Bathhouse is supposed to be a neighborhood recreation area, with indoor facilities and an art gallery. Haven't been in there for two years, so I don't know what has been done lately.
The car was stored inside for a while on 10feet of lumber at one point!
The PCC is still on the planks of wood. The bathhouse doesn't seem to have been worked on in awhile -- but there is certainly less graffiti on it than I used to remember from about 10 years ago, when I used to pass it on drives down 4th Ave.
Doug aka BMTman
Not really sure what the "plan" is yet. I heard about the car, and ran over there to see it, and talked with Eric. He is looking for volunteers to help restore the car, but I don't know where he is going to run it. The tracks on Union St. don't match the guage of the car.
You can see the website he has for the former bath house by simple e-searching.
I am also trying to find out from him the status of the other 6 cars. Any Philly folks know about them? They are supposedly stored in a trucking yard.
This bathhouse had closed looooong before the 70's gay bath scene and AIDS.
Thanks Jan, for both the PCC and bathhouse info.
I thought that that particular bathhouse (#4) had been closed for decades. It is certainly something worthy of being in Kevin Walsh's www.forgotten-ny.com.
Keep us informed if you hear any further developments on the 6 other PCCs.
Doug aka BMTman
The GMC Fishbowl fleet was a staple in the New York area for many years and represents NYC transit from the 60's through the 90's. But there was another type bus that was operated in that time. It was from the Flxible Corporation and though the copied a lot of the characteristic from GMC, they were different. Corgi Classics has released the GMC Fishbowls for collection and they are the closest representation I've seen in years. But I would like to see a mdel of the Flxibles also and if anyone has seen one or knows a company that is currently making them, please let me know. I'm also considering having some Corgi Fishbowls "modified" to resemble the same ones which rode our streets for years. What do you think?
I remember the beetle-browed Flxibles better than I remember the GMC Fishbowls! Some of the ones I remember: 4000-4100 (A/C'd Flxibles, Brooklyn), 5000-5100 (Brooklyn and SI); 5600-5700 (Queens); 4600-4700 (A/C'd; Bronx).
Later models we saw were 7300-7500 and later still 9000-9200. MSBA's #850-902 were also the same model Flxibles. Then came the Grumman disaster of 1981. There are still some Flxible buses running around. Suffolk Transit's current 9300 Series are Flxibles.
Though I don't do much model collecting, it would be great if Corgi could make a model of the classic 1969 Flxible, the kind the West Farms Bronx bus depot used to house. If not, then the non-A/C'd #5600-5700 model would also be good.
Wayne
I don't think you are going to see Corgi produce many more American transit buses.
The original runs did NOT sell very well according to a source I know. There are dozens of them, both old look and new look, being sold for less than half original price at a chain of stores out here in California known as "Tuesday Morning". This chain IS nationwide, you can find their addresses at http://www.tuesdaymorning.com -- however, I just got back from Las Vegas, and at all four of their stores up there, they said they mever heard of the Corgi buses, so I assume we got them all in southern California. The Corgi's became available about a year ago at TM stores in our area, and believe me, they don't have any left -- I managed to buy about 20 different varieties plus some duplicates which I custom painted for NYCTA, LIRR's old suburban buses, San Francisco Muni, etc.
Tuesday Morning is a chain that buys manufacturer's overstock (and occasionally the stock of bankrupt high-end stores) at pennies on the dollar and discounts it heavily. I don't know about their current status but when I first heard of them several years ago they were extremely successful.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yep, they still seem to be extremely successful -- although they have closed out a few stores here and there in southern California, those were non-producers. Most of the time they are jammed with customers buying shopping carts full of stuff! (Of course, I helped them reduce their stock of Corgi buses...)
I saw them(The Corgi s) in a KB Outlet Store Last Year in Las Vegas in the Beltz Outlet Store, I have been kicking myself for a year not, because I passed on them
The guys selling them at the Greenberg Shows and other hobby-type venues I've visited must not be aware of this. They're still putting them on their tables for top dollar.
The Motor Bus Society had been selling the various Corgi buses at fairly reasonable prices, but I don't know if this is still the case. I bought the PTC fishbowl and a Red Arrow old look but passed on the PTC PCC.
The impression I got from several dealers was that the line was highly successful but the number of buses/cars released was limited. This was supposed to keep the value high (?). One of my questions about this line was the choice of properties - especially the Peoria emergency response bus (one which I'm sure many folks are trying to get into their collections!). I personally would have liked to see the GM TDH-5105/06, considering the numbers sold (PTC had 1000).
Yes, I came across someone that WAS aware of the low Tuesday Morning store prices on the Corgi's and then trying to sell them for top dollar. They didn't appreciate the fact that I told them that, yes, I too, could run right up the street from the show and buy them at TM for $19.95 and then remove only part of their price tag too.
BTW -- if there are any left at TM, they've been marked down even further, they are now $11.95.
KB seems to get ONLY the Lionel version newlooks -- transit and suburban, and the railroad-painted oldlooks plus the railroad-painted 743's. Have never seen any of the real transit company versions at KB.
They also get the orange and blue Lionel City Lines PCC's from time to time; a friend got one and wanted it custom painted, so I took on the task. Man, was that thing a real problem child to disassemble!!
They are just about hermetically sealed!
9/19/99
If the Corgi transit buses didn't sell that well,how did the PCC's make out?
Bill Newkirk
There seem to be a lot of them available at the shows - AFAIK, only the Philadephia original run is sold out from the manufacturer.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Received a large sized Post Card from Greenberg Shows.
They are having a train show at the Ewbank Athletic Building at Hofstra next Saturday and Sunday. I went last year and they had about 150 vendors selling (mostly) trains but a few had buses, Hess Trucks, etc.
If you miss this one, I think there is another one in two weeks at SUNY-Stony Brook and then this is repeated in the spring.
I imagine the PCC's did pretty well in the transit operator colors, as the only ones I've seen in the "outlets" are the orange-bodied Lionel City Lines version.
Bowser makes a motorizing kit for the Corgi PCC, I understand it is in the neighborhood of $150.00. I was fortunate to receive help from someone who motorized their PCC to get that one apart that i had to custom paint!! They said the motorizing kit works just fine.
1. I'm surprised the PCC's sold so well considering that the St Louis and Boston models were not authentic (St Lou never had post-war PCC's and the Boston post-war cars were all Pullmans - 3001 certainly wasn't one of them). Also, I believe the Cincinnati car isn't authentic but I'm not quite sure about that one. PTC 2733 is quite accurate although it never ran on Rt 53 in that scheme.
2. The Motor Bus Society is still selling both buses and PCC's. I noticed the list in the mailing I received from MBS this week. Prices aren't as good as Tuesday Morning's are reported to be but a heck of a lot cheaper than I've seen at Greenberg.
3. At at least one local KB (and at a Toys R Us) I saw the vehicles in the transit schemes. This was when they first hit the market. I don't frequent either toy chain so I can't say what's there lately.
4. Corgi may have misread the market. My dad gets the Matchbox truck mailings and these things aer hotter than anything I've seen lately. Part of the attraction is the limited run. Also, apparently Mack pulled its permission from Matchbox to make any more replicas (you'll note that Kenworth, Peterbilt and Ford tractors are on the most recent run of semis offered). Word on the collector front is that everybody now wants the Macks that were offered before the embargo.
5. And don't get started on that Hess truck thing! Try and buy a Hess truck when they come out. The collectors have ruined the market.
This weekend Greenberg is having a show at Hofstra University in Uniondale LI---Weeb Eubank Hall. I went last year and there were at least 100 vendors. Mostly trains, but a few buses, diecasts, parts, dolls, action figures and (need I say it) Hess trucks.
I think there is another one in two or three weeks at SUNY-Stony Brook.
If you miss these, they usually repeat in the Spring.
9/18/99
After attending the Trans Rail expo in Jersey City today,I headed out to Franklin Avenue of the Newark city Subway to check on things.The skeleton of the new maintenance building is up and proceeding nicely. There are new tracks in the yard and they are ballasted. Work is under way on removing the old freight tracks and sinking concrete foundations for the catenary poles.Here are my questions:
1)That freight branch,is it abandoned or seldom used?
2)When Franklin Avenue and Heller Parkway stations are eliminated and the new Branch Brook Park station is opened will this be the new terminus,or is the line to be extended?
3)NJT plans to extend the line past Newark Penn station to Broad Street.Is a tunnel,cut & cover involved ? How will line be extended.
4)I assume the PCC turning loop at Penn is too tight for the new low floor LRV's,am I correct? Your answers are most welcome.
In closing,I LOVE and HATE the Newark City Subway,I'm sure you'll agree!
I LOVE riding those PCC's with their incandescent bullseye lighting,PCC sounds,bouncy ride and open window ride in the warm weather.
I HATE the fact that only 12 minutes of pure bliss...it's over. I wish this line was an hour and 12 minutes long!! I felt this way for years. Gonna miss those PCC's!! Progress is upon us.
Bill Newkirk
Sorry I couldn't make the waterfront tour today. I wish I could be two places at once. The reason why is my Sunday is booked.
I got home this morning around 7:30, and was in bed in around an hour. I didn't wake up until 5! But I'm glad you guys had a nice time.
Hey, Transport Pro, no problem.
You deserved the snooze time.
Besides, there's always November's Bay Ridge Walking Tour. Maybe you can make that one? (Date and time to come).
Doug aka BMTman
Back a couple of years ago I was on a Transit Museum tour that included a trip to the lower level of 42nd Street. Today I was in the City with my daughter and we got off at 42nd Street so I could show her the stairway down - but I couldn't find it! Did it get eliminated during the recent construction at the north end of the platform? Or did I just miss it?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The City, er, the Mayor, has gotten very paranoid abt. abandoned stations. I was on a Transit Museum IND tour with Joe Cunningham this spring, and the lower level 42nd is now closed to practically everyone. We;ll have to be content with the pics on nycsubway.org.
You missed it. I was there recently. I saw the stairs. The lights are off or dim on the lower level. Brian
OK, thanks - refresh my memory, if you would, where on the main platform are the stairs located?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've been to Times Square many times and the stairs got demolished, they used to be up front at the Southbound platform, all you can see is a metal type of plate.
Peace Out
-Clayton
On the downtown platform about mid way there is a stair going up, behind them is what looks like a door to a maint closet. That's it.
At the front end of the platform the wooden esclator is covered, but still there. Or at least that's was the facts based on a tour last october.
P.S. I believe there is another "Unification" tour comming.
Mr t__:^)
Not only is it mostly sealed up, the track down there is completely OOS from north of 42nd to north of 34th.
-Dave
Why was the lower level sealed off?
[Why was the lower level sealed off?]
Probably because it was too easy for people to get down there. All that blocked passage was an easy-to-climb-over gate on the stairway. I don't know if skells had congregated on the lower level, but it wouldn't surprise me.
Well, the lowel level was sealed off in two parts. Until 1988, it was open as an underpass to get from the northbound platform to the southbound platform and vice verca. It was very unsafe down there and filthy too. Then the big stairways that led to the underpass was sealed up, one at the northern end of the southbound platform and one at the south end of the northbound platform. While down there, I remember chain link fence extending the length of the platform with two slam gates connected to it.
When the underpass was closed, there were still several staircases exposed that led down to that platform. Movies such as "Ghost" and the Michael Caine movie "A shock to the system" were filmed down there. In the Michael Caine movie, you actually see Elizabeth McGovern climbing down one of those staircases. I haven't been at that station recently so I don't know how much more was sealed or covered up. Can somebody please post the current status of the station.
Thanks.
I also remember the chain link fencing from the days when the northern end was used as the aforementioned underpass. More than anything else, I remember thinking, what train or trains ran down here? It gave me the creeps!
It was in plain sight near the front of the downtown platform. It has since been sealed up and only the lighter squares of concrete yield any clue that something used to be there.
The other staircases down, which should still be intact, are located under some of the stairs leading to the current platform from the mezzanine. They are usually marked "station department" and are locked.
--Mark
I remember that staircase very well. You could see one of the pillars down there with a "42" placard on it. My curiosity never got the best of me, and I never did venture down those stairs.
Today just wasn't the day for official maps on the system. I tried to get one at each of four token booths at WTC with no success, none at W. 4th street, none at 8th and Broadway (uptown direction) on the N/R, none at 116th on the 1, finally got a July edition at 116th on the C, tried again at 34th/Penn on the A/C/E with no success. Booth attendant (OK subway-buff, I know that's not the right term, but I'm almost asleep so please forgive me) at Penn were also extremely rude to almost every customer ahead of me in line (not to me, fortunately). The agent at WTC on the E was suggesting the MVMs to anyone buying more than just one token; a couple of folks did decide to use them. I didn't take time to look closely at the machines (my daughter humors me by walking with me to the front car but that's about it) but the only people I observed trying them were the ones who went there on the agent's suggestion.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were some postings on the general topic not long ago and maybe I missed the answers to some of the questions I had. Pardon me if this is a repeat, but I've wondered for a long time about train speeds on the IRT and BMT. I've always had the feeling that the IRT tended to run faster than the BMT, especially in curved track areas. I haven't ridden the 7 in a while, but recall that on the elevated section around Rawson St., and maybe other areas, trains went around the curves aparently without any time signal restrictions - they just whipped around at full speed, it seemed. IRT's around the curved track sections in lower Manhattan, like around the Fulton St. stations, also seem to go pretty fast.
Are IRT tracks banked at a greater angle than the BMT tracks on similar curves, so IRT trains can safely take the curves at nigher speed? Or is it my imagination?
Someone wrote earlier about speeds around the DeKalb area. The section from Pacific St. to DeKalb has some fairly long straght sections and a number of curves, and it seems to me that trains take the whole thing at about walking pace. Anyone know why? The B/M timed signal Manhattan-bound approaching 18th Ave. also has a slow-speed time signal. And there's one (or was one) approaching tghe station from the 79th St. direction. Do all tracks in the system with the same curvature radius have the same time signal/speed restriction? If not, why not? Are BMT/IND-type cars more susceptible to derailment at a curve than the narrower IRT cars, and that's why they are made to run slower?
(I'll leave out the track section from Cortlandt ot Chambers on the BMT Broadway line. The tight, snaky multiple curves in every direction probably are unique in the whole system and I guess the only way to negotiate that stretch safely and remain on the tracks is to go slow - regardless of the equipment used.)
Mike Rothenberg
There are some curves where IRT cars go quite slowly (a spot on the southbound stretch between 180th St. and E. Tremont Ave. comes to mind). But the IRT cars are shorter as well as narrower, hence a curve of the same radius would put less strain on an IRT train than on a BMT or IND train. On the other hand, IRT trains must negotiate some curves - like South Ferry loop - that IND/BMT trains could never make it around, that's why the difference in car length exists.
Other than the lower level 42nd/8th, what other stations look scary, forbidden, or just like a prison....
The pics of lower level 42nd portray that area almost similar to that of a prison...
Nick
The fare control level at Atlantic Av on the "L".
Jeffrey: The station at Boro Hall, I believe it was, where I saw that ugly rat last month. They brazen little cusses. They right up from the tunnel to the station platform and pay us no heed.
The closed northbound platform at Chambers Street BMT! Nothing gives me the creeps the way that one does, with its barred staircases, dim light, crumbling walls and ceiling and overall state of decay.
Bowery is pretty creepy too; also the Madison Street exit ramp at East Broadway IND; Third Ave-138th Street on the #6 and 145th Street on the #3 all qualify.
Wayne
Chambers St. JMZ
Broadway G
Botanic Garden S (before rehab)
2nd Ave F (at night)
Bowery JM
Canal St (anywhere)
Ralph Ave C
How about Wilson Avenue ("L") upper level - with its panoramic view of Trinity Cemetery, complete with ancient topsy-turvy gravestones and a huge weeping willow tree? The station house at Bushwick-Aberdeen is pretty creepy-looking too. Also on the "L" - the Bogart Street exit at Morgan Avenue. Lots of lovely prison bars there!
Wayne
I used to think the 9Av West End Station on the shuttle level when it was still running was petty creepy.
The one time we were (Dad and I) at 9th Avenue lower level (November 29, 1968), we arrived aboard an ancient, wheezing BMT Standard, which limped along at about 15 MPH. I found the station to be almost devoid of light, just a few rows of bare bulbs along the edge of one platform and near the stairs. The far end of the station was in almost total darkness. It was certainly eerie.
Wayne
9/19/99
I never thought of Ninth Ave lower as spooky or creepy. Waiting for a two car train of A-TYPES I felt rather curious for a station to have a two car train when so much more passed through there years ago.In fact one joke about Ninth Avenue was that you would have to go downstairs for the "EL" trains or go upstairs for the SUBWAY.
Bill Newkirk
155th St 8th Av was like this before flourescent lighting was put in. I felt like I was in the tunnel once, watching the R-1/9's I got off of pull out. And just imagine it with the moaning of those cars.
9/19/99
Wayne,
The Chambers Street BMT station doesn't scare me,it saddens me. go down there and look around. Imagine crowds,yes crowds of people boarding BMT Standards etc. Imagine men wearing straw hats and women dressed impeccably neat. That was the past,the station with it's filth,fallen tiles,water leaks is slap in the face to its grand and glorius past. If those people I described before looked into the future and saw this,they too would be saddened. I guess back then New Yorkers took pride in their subway.Do we take pride today?
Bill Newkirk
Newkirk Ave on the Brighton doesn't scare me.
My memories of the Chambers St station are from forty years ago and I can't help but wonder if it is still the same. I recall four tracks and five platforms. Platforms 1 & 5 were side platforms, they as well as Platform 3 were closed and had been unused for years. I used to walk to the end of the platform so I could get on the first car of the Jamaica train. The whole area looked pretty ratty, and that was forty years ago. The thing I remember the most was the terrible smell, with water dripping in numerous places. From the way you talk it must be forty years worse.
Karl, that's exactly the case. Since you were last there the first platform is mostly gone, replaced by a wall thanks to platform extensions on the adjacent line. Other than that it's simply been a case of severe neglect.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm not sure about the location but I'm guessing that the extensions were probably to the IRT Brooklyn Bridge station and that caused the walling off of the one platform.
It's hard to believe that the station is still usable considering how bad it looked so many years ago. I really thought that there were sections of walls and ceilings that were about to fall in back then. As a kid I thought there was a catholic emblem at the end of the platform where there was a narrow vertical case that said...
S
T
R
E
T
C
H
E
R
As a kid I read this as St Retcher who I thought must have been the patron saint of the subways. I guess I was a pretty dumb kid. That Chambers St station sure brings back a lot of memories!
St. Retcher's Cathedral and school is just a few
blocks away on the other side of 1 Police Plaza.
Click here for more info.
Sarge,
You certainly did. I guess I'm still pretty dumb!
Karl B
Sorry, Karl. That's an all-around link that comes in handy sometimes. For example on my Website its linked to something the says "click here for my dirty picture collection"
Sarge,
I noticed when I got that screen again while touring your website. I spent almost an hour there and want you to know that I enjoyed it very much. I even read your jokes to my wife. I tried to sign your guestbook three times but kept getting rejected. It's probably my iMac. There are a lot of things that I can't seem to do with this thing.
Karl B
Thanks for your comments Karl,
No, its the guestbook itself. I never had any complaints with my old one but when it reached 250 entries I had to get a new one as guestworld has a 250 entry limit. Since then its hit and miss whether it works or not, even though its from the same people. By the way, I have something on that Ha, Ha Gotcha page that EMails me every time I get a hit and I've gotten 11 letters so far since that posting. And who knows, maybe there is a St.Retcher somewhere in the world!!!
Don't you know? He's the patron saint of all who get nauseated in the subway.
subfan
Chambers Street was even spookier when it had the incandescent light. I presume you remember it from this era. These lights hung down on long stems and had a glass halophane shade inside a round metal frame. The remnants of these remained suspended over the platform long after the installation of flourescent light. Today, you can still see where they once hung; in some places just the wires hang down from the high ceiling. One thing that really gets me is that they are allowing the original bas-reliefs to rot away. A few of them are still intact, but at the north end on the closed platform (which should be restored, even though it is not used), they are in extremely bad shape.
There is a planned reconstruction of Foley Square either in the works or soon to be begun - I wonder if they are planning to do anything about the water problem plaguing the subway station when they do this.
Wayne
Yes it was all incandescent in my time. It seems hard to believe that they put new lighting in that station and did not repair anything else. If they have done so little with that station in all these years maybe that St Retcher case is still on the wall at the end of the platform.
Karl B
Lexington avenue E/F is pretty junky.
Back when I was a little kid, the streetcars all had decals that said "Smoking and Spitting Unlawful". I mis-read Spitting as Splitting and asked my dad "Do streetcars ever split?". He mumbled something to the effect of "Yes. but don't worry."
Later, I was to learn that yes, they certainly do. (usually switches)
Got to "unsplit" (also know as rerail) a few cars.
Best split switch exchange: Motorman: I was told to go up 3 track.
Conductor: I was told to go up 2.
I recall a sign on one of the IRT stations admonishing passengers not to expectorate.
Does that mean not to expectorate a train? Just kidding
Larry,RedbirdR33
How 'bout the sign, "NO STANDING-BUS STOP"- If you can't stand, how can you wait fr the bus??
My favorite was always a sign in one of the stairwells at 370 Jay Street. It was posted next to a fire hose or something like that. It said: "TO BE USED FOR FIRE USE ONLY".
How about "FOR FIRE USE ONLY"??
As an NYPD sergeant my favorite oxymoron is "Police Intelligence Unit"
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
Then there's the "No Fishing From Bridge" sign in the middle of Royal Gorge Bridge in Colorado. The Arkansas River is only 1,050 feet below the bridge. I laughed out loud when I saw that sign. Took a picture of it, too.
I think you were supposed to sit on the curb.
How about the one on the men's room at Chambers Street Station for many years. "Men's Room is closed,please use Canal Street."
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember once my dad took me to the Old Yankee Stadium, I must have been 6 or 7, just learning to read. there was a sign that saidNO BETTING, I thought it mean t NO BEATING, so I asked how can a team win if they can t beat the other team.
The best "no spitting" sign I ever saw was actually a theater slide (put up between feature films) at the Riviera Theater in North Tonawanda NY (near Buffalo) where I used to be the theater organist while in school there. It read, "Please no spitting, remember the Johnstown Flood!." All of these signs were put up in a time when tuberculosis was a prevelant disease in the US.
Theatre Organs!!! Now there is a form of music which is highly under appreciated. All of us Sub Talkers relaying stories of roll-their-eyes spouses when yet another train reference is made, my wife absolutely forbids me to play "Ashley Miller at the Great Radio City Music Hall Organ" when she or the children are in the car. Her reactions to my roll sign collection are tame compared to what she does when I pull into the driveway with "Someone to Watch Over Me" or "Poinciana" playing a bit too loud.
My parents have installed a former theatre organ in their home. Dad is an amateur musician (Mother's a professional) but he loves playing it. Fortunately, he's good enough so that the neighbors don't mind - and believe me, when he gets going the whole neighborhood can hear!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is it a Wurlitzer?
I honestly don't remember. It's rather on a grand scale, with many ranks of pipes, oriented toward the brasses but with a surprising number of reed pipes as well (almost no strings).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Although we are getting a bit off topic, it seems that musicians and interest in subways do go together! Joe Frank, well known rapid transit historian and New York elevated modeler extraordanaire is a professional pianist in the Philadelphia area. Years ago, as part of an ATOS "open console", I was able to play the organ in the Music Hall.
WOW! It is truly the mightiest Wurlitzer! The instrument has many characteristics of a classical instrument as well as a theater organ.
My favorite Music Hall organ moment? - Carol King and Paul Schaffer "jam" on the dual consoles during a David Letterman special!
I've been to Radio City Music Hall three times and do remember the organ being played there, but no specific tunes. The last time I was there, the stage show included some guys in Mets uniforms (they had just won the World Series two months before). And then there were the Rockettes....
You got it right. If you were to knock out that wall on the platform at Chambers St., the Brooklyn Bridge IRT station would be in plain sight.
I used both of those stations frequently many years ago. If I could ever get back to the city, I'd have to check out both stations. While Chambers Street apparently hasn't changed much, Brooklyn Bridge Station must have really changed since I last saw it.
Brooklyn Bridge station was shifted northward in the early 60s and was renamed "Brooklyn Bridge-Worth St.", at which time the Worth St. station was closed. You can still make out the southern end of the station, now totally dark, from a 4 or 5 train. The station is now known as "Brooklyn Bridge-City Hall".
I haven't been through Chambers St. since 1986, although I used to go through it fairly often from 1969 thru 1971. Even then, I didn't pay too much attention to its overall condition.
I always rode the express between Brooklyn Bridge and 42nd St so I knew Worth St was a local stop but that's about it. I am assuming that the shift north was the result of platform extensions. There used to be a long narrow passageway between the BMT and IRT at Chambers-Brooklyn Bridge. I always felt it was a north-south walkway. Did the station modification eliminate the need for this passageway?
Steve, it's abysmal. We'll get a good look at it on October 27th, since it's right next to the Lex line (BTW - Vacation day's approved) - and Redbirds will be out on all three Lex lines since it's a weekday. (Yes, the #4 DOES have a small fleet of them - #9220 thru #9305, and they do weekday service). We can hop off at B.B. and walk over to view the ruins.
Wayne
OK, cool. BTW, I was informed privately that a Stillwell Ave. tour is being organized that evening. We can save the best for last - a merry jaunt on a slant R-40 Q on our way to Coney.
I presume we'll meet at Penn Station. All I need to know is when.
EWWW! Better to meet at Grand Central than Madison Square Garbage.
How could the expansion of Brooklyn Bridge cut into Chambers St. Brooklyn Bridge has island platforms. Besides, I've seen the other side of the wall at Chambers through a door that was open. It is a elecrical room or something, and I even saw the old wall and mosaics. There is also still a stairway that goes down to to that platform.
Brooklyn Bridge has outside local platforms which have been long abandoned. That may be what you saw. The station was extended northward as part of a station lengthening program in order to accommodate 10-car trains of R units. At the same time, the extension was sufficient enough to allow the original southern end of the station, which included a curve and gap fillers, to be closed. It's possible that the local tracks were relocated to permit the platform lengthening, thus necessitating the partial demolition, and walling off, of the adjacent outside platform at Chambers St.
Looking at the station today, the stairway I mentioned may have been the outside platforms of Brooklyn Bridge. But there are doors in the false wall in Chambers St., and behind them are original walls, covered with wires and other equipment.
I think a good portion of the Chambers Street platform exists behind that ugly wall, since the Lex line curves away from it.
ANYWAY - We saw some absolutely frightening-looking mezzanines, crossunders and passageways during our day trip to-day. All of these were in IND stations. Scariest? Bedford Park Boulevard - they have an entire section of mezzanine that's closed off and illuminated by exactly THREE bare bulbs. I had visions of skeletons in chains lying about in there. Then there's a crossunder at Dyckman Street on the "A" that was extremely forbidding - and it stunk to high heaven of disinfectant. Another spooky-looking mezzanine was found at Fordham Road, with candle-power bulb light and pillars painted a funereal shade. And the IRT 168th Street station is all-around creepy. It looks like it may have had chandeliers hanging from the ceiling vault at one time (the medallions are still there); the entire look of the station made me very uneasy.
Wayne
many Queens Blvd Stations also have long dim mezzanines such as Elmhurst, Grand/Newtown (Queens) and 65th Street. I have had to close gates at the other end of many of these and I was glad to get back to the light in front of the 24 hour booth!
Atlantic Av on the "L" has a very desolute looking mezzanine.
Yes, but at least you can see daylight from it. Some IND stations have mezzanines that resemble catacombs. Bedford Park's the best one I've seen so far - The Mummy's Tomb, nothing less.
Wayne
I have to agree with you on Fordham Rd. That mezzanine is dimly lit - it reminds of what station platforms used to be like before fluorescent lighting was installed.
Part of the problem there is the way the ceiling is constructed and where the lights are placed - in the recesses, so they don't cast light around, it merely shines in the recess, and whatever light is reflected off the (filthy) ceiling is reflected downward, the effect is as if the entire place is lit by 15-watt bulbs. It's dark and dim, in contrast to the platform level, where, IMHO, there's too MUCH light. Had to be very careful there in order to avoid glare when I took pictures last Fri. Ditto for Kingsbridge Road.
Wayne
9/29/99
Those bulbs you described are not 15 watts. They are 36 or 56 watts,but the funny part stamped on the top where the volts and watts are displayed is the words "street railway". We havn't had trolleys in years!
Bill Newkirk
Hopefully, it will see renovation, although this will be a capital project on par with the restoration of Ellis Island. A good part of the station ceiling above the northbound track has been compromised.
I have a long laundry list of things that need to be done there. As a child travelling with my parents, changing from the Nassau Loop train to the Jamaica #15 it scared the bejeezus out of me; today it just looks forbidding, grim, scarred and in dire need of repair. Sad?
You said it!
Wayne
my vote goes to Kingsbridge Concourse: the dim lower mezzanine with the closed of ramps (which lead to the other side of the concourse underpass.) I also vote for the dim IND mezzanines on the Queens Blvd line but many are having new lights planned or actually being installed
That's a strange station-you go UP from the mezzanine to the platform above (at least at the Kingsbridge Road exit - I've never been up to the 196th Street one - we'll explore it further Friday on the way back down from 205th).
Wayne
Is this the station that's actually hung under the Grand Concourse where the Cross-Bronx expressway that everyone's been talking about?
No, Kingsbridge Road is quite a bit north. I don't think there's a station on the Concourse line that's directly under the Cross Bronx, which crosses the Concourse between 174th-175th and Tremont Avenue stations. The line itself is hung above the expressway.
Wayne
I'm surprised no one mentioned 168th Street on the '1/9'. This is the lower level accessible only be elevator, which contributes to a feeling of isolation. Those flourescent globe lights spaced far apart can give you the chills as well.
The Metropolitan Avenue terminal of the 'M' at night is a fun place to be. When you move away from the fare collection area and there is no train in, all you see is the cemetery, the Bay Ridge line, the yards and the side of the city warehouse/mall.
Any station in a depressed open cut can be very creepy at night. I know; I once just missed an 'N' at 20th Avenue at 1:30 a.m.
Tottenville at night. I can just hear a Vincent Price voice-over.
Although with the closing of the stations and the coming of the bi-levels this is probably too expensive to do now but I always thought this would have been a great idea to utilize the lower Montauk Line beween Jamaica and LIC. Put more trains on the line, heavily publicize it, and ONLY charge a NYC transit fare for local use (betw Jamaica & LIC). Very few people used it (locally) because: most people cannot afford an LIRR fare for short rides in Queens. Few people even knew it existed.There were only a few trains a dayBut think about it. How many people in Richmond Hill, Woodhaven, Ridgewood, Maspeth, etc could use a rail link to The "7" line at Vernon/Jackson where it would be one stop to Grand Central!! To do it now all you would need are small high platforms for one or two cars at the old stations as LIC already has. Richmond Hill already has a high platform. The trains could have portable metro-card readers by the doors.
The main problem is that the LIRR is anything but farsighted, the discontinuance of the Rockaway Branch and The Central Branch (Just before Levittown-what a blunder) proves that case!!! Let me have some feedback.
What About Tying In This line to the #7 Subway line at 42 Street Tunnel on the west and the Old LIRR Rockaway Row at Whitepot Junction and then south to Howard Beach/JFK Station On The 8th Avenue Rockaway Branch. Then Trains can run From Times Square Thru Grand Central to JFK Airport. The #7 Line Was Part Of the dual Contracts And Ran Both IRT & BRT/BMT Cars From Times Square To 103rd St/Corona Station.
It's true that the BMT once operated service on what is now the Flushing line. But it was with "el" cars of IRT dimensions. They ran from Queensboro Plaza east. Today's BMT/IND cars can definitely not fit through the Steinway (42 St.) tunnels used by the #7 line.
Actually, I meant to keep it simple with very little construction.(Other than high platforms and cosmetic work) The LIC line is still being used by 2 trains each way each weekday.
9/18/99
NO dice Jeff! That idea was proposed and the locals there shot down the idea for conversion of that line into a subway line. N.I.M.B.Y.!!
Bill Newkirk
Why does the government run and hide whenever NIMBY shows it's ugly face? Build it anyway, and dare them to stop you.
I person's kowtowing to NIMBY's is another's "responsiveness to the community."
Exactly. Now explain, if you would, why government types think: a) that responsiveness to the community is a good thing; and b) that it should take precedence over the needs of the City at large. Have they been watching too many old StarTrek movies? "The needs of the few out-weigh the needs of the many"?
Why is responsiveness to the community a bad thing? Aren't we all members of communities that have rights and needs?
There's nothing wrong with being responsive to a community's needs. However, too often (at least in my observation), the "community" consists of one or two people with an agenda and a loud voice. This agenda is often of a personal nature ("don't build it because construction dust will cover my store's windows for a week and a half") rather than one that truly is in the community's best interest.
Larry Littlefield said it very well a few months ago (forgive me for not quoting verbatim: 'Two people with a lawyer can stop anything.'
David
And some of these people react out of personal bias. They fear crime (unfounded); They're afraid their property values will go down (largely hogwash). They have (in some cases) unwarranted fears. They fail to see the big picture, the greater good. It's a damn shame. Let them see for themselves how crowded the Queens IND is at rush hour.
Wayne
Another thing to keep in mind is the true nature of the community opposition to the Long Island City line idea. People *say* that they're worried about noise and construction disruption and (everyone's favorite) how their children's safety will be imperiled by speeding trains. What they're *really* concerned about is how better transit access might mean that people with black, brown or yellow faces will move into their neighborhoods. It's no coincidence that Glendale is both the hotbed of anti-transit sentiment AND one of the few remaining white enclaves in Queens.
Perhaps that explains why people in northern Glen Cove (the only real shopping center is on Forest avenue, only supermarket too) is very hard to access by public transportation with both N21 and N27 bus routes terminating downtown. Could it be that the rich white people in that area don't want buses from Flushing and Hempstead coming to their area? Perhaps.
Sick of the NIMBY's join
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
The Village of Sea Cliff's needs often outweigh the needs of a much larger Glen Cove. For instance, a powerful NIMBY (we'll just call them the Harbor Society) has stopped things that have made perfect sense. They stop a much needed Stop and Shop supermarket in Roslyn which has no pharmacy or supermarket (there's no place to get groceries in the village of Roslyn), they stopped a ferry that would've revitalized Glen Cove's run down waterfront, and now they are trying to stop a ferry in Glenwood Landing. They claim that if Glen Cove gets more shopping and a real downtown and waterfront the traffic in Sea Cliff would be terrible. In reality, for the rest of us who have to fight the crowds at Shop Rite Farmers Bazaar, usually get fed up and do our shopping out of town. This means clogging Glen Cove road and having a back-up of cars at the N.Blvd and Glen Cove road intersection. To me, not having anything in town creates more traffic because everybody (most people drive big SUV's) clog the roads outbound to do shopping. We can't seem to improve our dinky public libraries but yet we spend money on building osprey nests in the harbor. The officials in Sea Cliff and Glen Cove are some of the most corrupt I've ever seen. They speak improvements, but the NIMBY's like CSHH stop them like a subway train gets tripped.
Sick of the same 'ol Sea Cliff NIMBY's, join
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
(Sea Cliff and Glen Cove). Sounds like the NYC Council, which voted down a proposal to make it easier to build new supermarkets in NYC (without bribes) 58 to 1. At least with term limits all those bastards will be out in 2001.
Damn straight. I hate it when these community associations or community boards are thought of as the community. They are not. But the procedures enacted in the post-Moses era require so many steps, and allow such scope for delay through litgation, that nothing is possible. The idea that those showing up at public hearings represent the community is nonsense.
For large plans such as transit improvements, I suggest advisory referendums on election day to show what the WHOLE community really things. The NIMBYs would get trumped 10 to 1.
Exactly. Why should people who would benefit from a proposed project be screwed because a few people don't want it? In the case of the Montaulk LIRR, the people who live there moved into that area knowing that a railroad goes right through their community. How dare they tell the city what to do with it's property?
It is they same old story with Airports. They build the airports where nobody lives, then the developers build up near the airport, people move in and them complain the airport is too loud.
9/19/99
You're right Bob,remember in the late 70's when the SST debuted and the homeowners around Kennedy airport protested about the Concorde adding to the noise in that area ?
Bill Newkirk
Actually, I never said to make it a subway line. I just meant for the LIRR to use some marketing skills to increase ridership, such as make the fare equal to the subway fare and publicize it. They could keep it a diesel line.
The LIRR is highly resistant to any kind of fare entrepreneurship.
Even if they were to lower the fare on that segment, it would still be an extra fare service in the view of city riders unless it were a free transfer to TA lines. This would open a new can of worms.
IOW, politics would sink the line one way or another.
9/19/99
Jeff,
Sorry for any crossed wires! I think the LIRR has their eyes set on a east side connection to Grand Central and even dumping the entire Atlanic branch to Flatbush Ave. No way does the LIRR want 3 terminals,not counting Hunterspoint Ave,It seems Brooklyn has no appeal to them anymore. Look at the current Flatbush Avenue station. Although somewhat spruced up a couple of years ago,it's still dingy hot basement. Go upstairs and look at the scenery,it looks like a roof of a supermarket. And getting back to the LIRR Montauk line,the idea was bounced around to make it a transit line,possibly to replace the missing passenger service. Yeah I know,what passenger service! Well back in the late 70's I was riding an Oyster Bay train out of LIC and when we pulled up to a station,(name escapes me) some guy runs out of a bar and boards the train. Now,that's what I call service!
Bill Newkirk
>>>I just meant for the LIRR to use some marketing skills
to increase ridership, such as make the fare equal to the subway fare and publicize it. <<<
I always thought it would be a good idea for the LIRR to make the fare $1.50 between Woodside and Penn while the #7 is experiencing one of its frequent weekend outages. But, I was told they'd never do it, for various reasons. But it makes perfect sense...just have the conductors collect a buck and a half from everyone boarding NYC bound at Woodside.
They should do that even when the "7" i running.
It could only help revenues. It would bring a whole market of people who would never had ridden the LIRR. Another example could be Flatbush to ENY. It just seemed a waste when the LIC Branch stations were open that 1 or 2 people a day were using those stations when I'm sure thousands were taking the bus to the subway to get to the city. Also, I'm not sure but I think one of those stations were near the "M" train. I could just imagine how many people take the "M" from Metropolitan and have to change downtown for a train to midtown. They could have taken the Montauk Branch to the "7" at Jackson Av, one stop to the city.
Jeff, LIRR doesn't make better use of the Montauk Branch because it has no marketing skills. Probably thinks it doesn't need any. Considering the level of usage on that line, my favorite idea would be to buy a few PCCs from Newark when they are done with them and run them from LIC to Jamaica and back 5 or 6 times an hour.
Ditto the Montauk run from Jamaica-LIC in the mornings and the afternoon runs from LIC to Jamaica. It costs, I believe, $4.75 to do this run now. It should be a $1.50 fare, same as a subway ride would be.
Of course when I ride the line those times, I just use my monthly pass.
The LIRR is jammed to the gills. The last thing they want to do is add patrons anywhere west of Jamaica, and at a discounted fare, no less.
The only hope for local service in Queens (and a lot of other ideas) is the GCT connection. The importance of GCT is not the widely touted "delivering LIRR commuters to the east side"--it's the fact that Penn Station is at capacity, Amtrak is in the driver's seat and they're dreading what will happen if Amtrak starts pushing LIRR trains out of Penn without an alternative.
One point frequently overlooked is the fact that the Long Island City terminal is very poorly situated to attract a big volume of ridership. There is only one high-level platform, only two carlengths long, and it's located near the terminal's western edge. Riders heading toward the subway have to walk through the middle of the yard and cross several active tracks. That's a lot of fun from a railfan perspective, and works okay with LIC's minimal passenger volume, but is definitely not an optimal arrangement if you have trains dumping off hundreds of passengers every ten minutes.
Rebuilding the terminal to add more platforms would be only a partial solution. There's no getting around the fact that LIC riders have to get the 7 train at Vernon-Jackson in order to get to Manhattan. V-J is the last Queens stop and the morning trains are always jammed. Whenever I take the LIC line, one or two mornings a month, I always count on having to let three or four trains pass before I can finally squeeze onto one. Short of a new East River tunnel, I don't see how the 7's capacity could be expanded enough to handle a huge increase in LIRR transfers.
(LIRR to #7). One cheaper idea is to return the LIRR to its original waterfront terminal, for a ferry connection. Midtown's job centers are too far from the waterfront on the other end, but Wall Street and WTC ferry -- like the ones from NJ -- could attract passengers. And there is always the ferry to Yankee Stadium...
When they built the 63rd St Tunnel, wasn t it supposed to be two levels, one for the subway, and one for the LIRR? I remember seeing a plan a good 20 years ago, that planned for a connection of the LIRR to go to a New West Side Termina. If there are 2 levels, why can t they use the Lower one for the LIRR, and connect to the Lower Level of GCT and run trains into there. Then there would also be a direct connection from the LIRRand Metro North
There is a lower level in the 63rd street tunnel - I've been in it on a Transit Museum tour about three years ago - that is intended for LIRR service eventually. Where it will connect is anybody's guess.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
East Side Access Project
The tunnel will connect to the mainline in the Sunnyside yards to the east and in Manhattan, will run under the Park Avenue MN line and then rise to follow the tracks on the west side and connect to what is now the Madison Avenue storage yard, where new lower level platforms will be built. AFAIK, the LL concourse already extends that far, so does the unopened part of the 45 Street passageway.
so what are they waiting for, I read about this plan back in the mid 70 s. Is it going the way of the 2nd Ave Subway, or the North Shore branch of the SIRT Lines
I'm sure they're waiting for funding. Unlike other plans (like Second Avenue) this one looks like it will actually be completed. We all know what happened in the 70s.
As with 2nd Avenue subway, we're waiting for politics.
Al D'Amato was the big proponent of this project (as well as city projects--let's be fair) and after he was voted out, the FRA made a point of moth-balling the project, claiming they were doing so because NYS had not specified how the state share would be funded. Schumer has not shown much interest in the project (nor has Moynahan) but that doesn't matter anyway--Schumer has no clout.
Why is also a political guess. Maybe the Clinton Administration was rubbing in our face that D'Amato was out. Maybe, at the "right moment" Hillary will have some pillow talk with her hubby, and, lo and behold the project will be revived!
Ladies and Gentlemen, place your bets.
I spoke with a Hillary fan. She said that she was sure that, with the election and all, more federal money would be coming our way. For housing projects and hospitals, that is, not for transit, schools, and economic growth for the unemployed poor.
If Hillary delivered a 70 percent match for the LIRR and the 2nd Avenue, I might even vote for her. But the reality is the FED don't have the money, and they ain't spending any on us. We're better off fighting to cut off the spending of our federal elsewhere, and paying for our own stuff.
I still wouldn't vote for Hillary.
Her hubby will no longer be president, it's a gamble that if Gore gets in he would be particularly buddy-buddy with the ex-President's wife. Most analysts believe that the Dems will not get back a majority in the Senate, though they have a good shot at the House.
So Hillary would probably be another junior junior Senator from the minority party in the Senate, and one who, in all fairness, is concerned with her own agenda, not New York's.
People have been blameing every gov back to Smith and Mayor to Hylan. People upstate don t care about the City and its problems. It goes back over 50 years, that the City should be a Seperate City/State then the State. NYC Democratic the State Republican. Same old story
I think there is, or was, some kind of ferry connection at LIC. Anyway, there are signs for one.
(LIRR ferry) Sure there was. Before the Pennsy takeover & Penn Station, the trains terminated at the waterfront. You can see the terminal from the FDR.
How much would it cost to start that up again for service to Wall Street and WTC? If Jersey can do it, why not the LIRR?
There is a 34th Street-LIC ferry. It connects with a free bus across 34th and 42th Streets and another free bus from its LIC terminal to the LIC LIRR station.
But the LIRR has done almost nothing to accomodate or promote this.
[There is a 34th Street-LIC ferry. It connects with a free bus across 34th and 42th Streets and another free bus from its LIC terminal to the LIC LIRR station.
But the LIRR has done almost nothing to accomodate or promote this.]
Even the most vigorous promotion wouldn't make this ferry popular. Using it requires:
(1) a 25- to 30-minute ride on the LIRR from Jamaica to Long Island City (disregarding east of Jamaica travel, as that's the same for Penn Station use);
(2) a bus trip to the LIC ferry terminal;
(3) the ferry ride itself;
(4) a crosstown bus trip from the Manhattan ferry terminal; and, in most cases
(5) a transfer to another bus or a subway to one's destination.
Using Penn Station involves a 20-minute train ride from Jamaica and then (usually) a single subway or bus ride to one's destination. I just can't see how the ferry route could compete.
For a ferry connection to work, the train would have to be extended right up to the dock, as it orignially was. The ferry would have to go to places where high density commercial is within walking distance of the Manhattan terminal, not where a bus ride is required.
Therefore, the possible use of such a ferry is to bring people Downtown while avoiding the subway -- a fast service with stops at Wall Street and World Trade. The theory is that LIRR riders don't like riding with "subway people" who live in NYC, and they'll pay an extra fare to avoid it.
Once the ferry terminal was built, it could also be used to convey East Siders from several stops to the Montauk Cannonball on Friday afternoon, for a trip to the Hamptons.
Ferries don't work because 1) most of NYC's development is away from the waterfront (which was industrial) and 2) most of NYC's waterfront is isolated from the subway/rail system. If enough of the waterfront redevelops with commercial/residential space, water taxi service could work as in Hong Kong. But you need the rail connection points.
As even Governor Cuomo pointed out, 2/3 of LIRR riders also ride the subway, and pay an extra fare to do it.
So LIRR people are "subway people."
The real problem is that three of the four locations where the LIRR dumps its loads (Brooklyn, Hunterspoint and LIC) are already jammed to the gills with subway riders at the point of boarding.
As you say, ferries from LIC might have a shot if the LIRR went right up to the ferry terminal. This kind of thing works in the Pacific Northwest.
[re LIRR riders x'ferring to the subway]
[The real problem is that three of the four locations where the LIRR dumps its loads (Brooklyn, Hunterspoint and LIC) are already jammed to the gills with subway riders at the point of boarding.]
Just a minor nitpick regarding Brooklyn ... the IRT certainly is jammed at Atlantic, and the D/Q's not much better. But the M/N/R at Pacific isn't usually too bad, granted it's a somewhat longer walk from the LIRR terminal and the trains take longer to Manhattan.
The M might be a viable alternative for those hitting the financial district but, as you say, it's a walk.
Put it this way, if it were me, and I passed up the IRT (which is right under your nose--"it pays to advertise") to walk over to Paciific Street and I just missed an M and watched a few Ns and Rs go by before another M, I'd swear to never do it again.
How far apart is Church St to Nassau St in Manhatten 2 short blocks. How lazy can they get. Except for freezing cold out side. They could always take a express bus in from Queens
The Washington State Ferries connect to The Waterfront Trolley and local bus lines in Seattle, but a 2 square mile zone in Seattle is free, so the pax do not have to pay. Also SF Bay has ferries, and they also connect to Muni and East Bay Routes. It is a 2 block walk to the nearest Bart/or Muni Metro Subway walk
[The theory is that LIRR riders don't like riding with "subway people" who live in NYC, and they'll pay an extra fare to avoid it.]
I don't doubt that there are some people like that (although as Paul pointed out, most LIRR riders *do* take the subway). But why cater to these prima donnas? If they're so skeeved out at the thought of the (ick!) subway and (ugh!) city dwellers, let them move to gated subdivisions in the Sunbelt, where they can drive their SUVs to work in guarded office parks. The poor dears.
I don't think that ferry was meant to compete with the LIRR. I think it was meant to compete with the TBTA. Its very close to the Midtown Tunnel and they supply parking. The bus to LIC station was probably an afterthought.
[I think there is, or was, some kind of ferry connection at LIC. Anyway, there are signs for one.]
I'm not sure if the ferry is still in operation. As of a couple of years ago, it was a big flop, according to some reports with single-digit ridership.
As Larry pointed out, ferry service from L.I.C. to Midtown is almost sure to fail because of the Manhattan terminal's remoteness. Wall Street service might be more do-able, but then again it's usually faster to use Flatbush Avenue to get there.
<<Jamaica, and at a discounted fare, no less. >>>
Couldn't they use the extra revenue they'd pick up from direct service from Woodside to Penn at $1.50 a fare? Seems to me it would add a lot more riders and money. The seats have handrests, so even if there are a few standees, seems they could handle it. Or...perish the thought...open a car or two more on each train.
As far as GCT is concerned...I have a hunch we won't see any LIRR trains in there until I'm drooling all over my maypo at Sunny Rest.
Kevin, there's no extra LIRR capacity at Penn. There are almost no seats available on most trains--there are standees on others.
Shuttles could not be operated because there are no "slots" for more LIRR trains. At rush hour, the LIRR can only add a train by cancelling a train somewhere else. It makes no business sense to crowd out riders paying $4.00-$8.00 and up (way up) to accomodate $1.50 fares.
You can't relieve an at-capacity line (7-Flushing) by encouraging people to use another at-capacity line (the LIRR).
I think the LIRR should charge a lower fare to Flatbush Ave. to relieve Penn (and have suggested it to them) but they won't even go for that.
[You can't relieve an at-capacity line (7-Flushing) by encouraging people to use another at-capacity line (the LIRR).
I think the LIRR should charge a lower fare to Flatbush Ave. to relieve Penn (and have suggested it to them) but they won't even go for that.]
I can't figure out why the LIRR is opposed to a lower Flatbush Avenue fare. After all, they used to have such an arrangement.
Any morning at Jamaica you'll see SRO trains heading to Penn and trains that are less than one-third full heading to Flatbush. That's a terrible mis-allocation of resources.
The problem with the lower Flatbush fare (in LIRR's opinion) was that people who had tickets to Flatbush didn't always go there--sometimes they'd go to/from Penn. That meant that the railroad had to sell them a step-up on the Penn train. There were also ten-trip coupons for this step-up.
The LIRR decided that the conductor/collector's time was too valuable to take up chopping these extra tickets.
So they decided it was easier to just charge people going to Flatbush (and LIC) the same. Then they complain that the Penn line gets all the traffic.
There'd be plenty of excess capacity on the line into Penn if they extended the Atlantic and Montauk Branches into Manhattan.
[There'd be plenty of excess capacity on the line into Penn if they extended the Atlantic and Montauk Branches into Manhattan.]
But then you'd need new tunnels and new terminals in Manhattan. As the MTA has yet to master the art of escalator maintenance, I have very little faith in their ability to manage such huge projects.
Thats a good reason go go back to the 62nd St Tunnel plan to GCT in the next 10 years
I'd love to see local service return to the Montauk Branch in Queens, but the nimbys applauded when it was eliminated, and they'd fight tooth and nail to see that regular service there is never restored. The nimbys drive cars to work, and they believe we should, too.
Perhaps we all should drive right through their neighborhoods every day ...
We got NIMBY's where I live, alot of 'em in Sea Cliff and Glen Cove. Even though it's a crowded area, with alot of new multiple dwelling units, they fight new supermarket construction even though we only really have one in town and it's always overcrowded and overstocked. These people are against LIRR improvements (electrification) and mass transit as well. Especially the Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor.
I'm so disgusted by the neglect of my area I've set up a web site at
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffandglencove
From opposing ferries, to new supermarket construction, Glen Cove downtown improvements, they are keeping the area in decay. Those who live around here know that the town is in very bad shape. Take a drive (or N21 bus ride) on the final stretch on Glen Cove avenue and you know what I mean. NIMBY's suck and they should all be stopped, they always represent rich car driving yuppies.
Heaven forbid they electrify the Oyster Bay line.
I still think that real concerns take should precedence over the desire to maintain a diesel line. There will always be diesel out in Suffolk to look at.
>>>>We got NIMBY's where I live, alot of 'em in Sea Cliff and Glen Cove. Even though it's a crowded area, with alot of new
multiple dwelling units, they fight new supermarket construction even though we only really have one in town and it's always
overcrowded and overstocked.<<<
Overstocked--->Big Typo!
Actually it's an out of stock supermarket, the opposite of overstocked. I was lucky just to get water and batteries the other day. You have to get there when the store opens to get every grocery on your list, otherwise they will be out of stock on at least 25% of it. When it comes to fresh milk, forget about it!
That's Shop Rite Farmers Bazaar in Glen Cove for you.
Jeff has a great idea here.
Only problem is the politicians and $$.
I think the NIMBY threat on this one is over rated. The real problem is that the city, the NYCTA and the MTA have promised beyond it's means for years to build/complete other projects.
The Second Avenue subway is a perfect example. The city has been promising to build it since 1930 and only now does there appear to be the faintest glimmer of hope that a small portion will actually be built to the point of running trains on it.
So my feedback is - absolutely a great idea to put the Montauk branch to meaningful use. But reality is that the city, the MTA and the various powers that be have a different agenda due to their past comittments on $$ and action.
The NIMBY issue is NOT over-rated in these areas. This is Archie Bunker land. The people who live there are white, but not educated, the sort of people who have been leaving NYC in droves for 50 years. This is their last bastion. In their view, mass transit would cause one of two things to happen.
1) Advancing Blacks and Latinos with greater or equal income than the whites who live there now would move in, "ruining" the neighborhood. The would be attracted by trains connecting the area to lower-income minority neighborhoods that they might want to move up from.
2) Yuppies with jobs in Manhattan would move in, pricing out the locals. They would be attracted by lower rents with good subway access to Manhattan.
The Montauk Line is filled with people who are fearful of change, and think that things can only get worse, and seek only to minimize what they put into the city, maximize what they get out of it, and keep things the same as long as possible, before the inevitable exodus. They want their neighborhoods to be isolated -- they have a 1950s idea that street criminals can't afford cars and travel exclusively by subway.
Are there people in these neighborhoods who do not feel this way. Sure. But don't expect them to show up for public meetings. Is there a reason to force subways on those who fight them while other areas of the city beg for them?
Larry, there is much truth to what you say. Obviously, you can't change 'old sticks in the mud'. In cases such as these the only change really occurs when those die-hard NIMBYS (1) retire out of state or (2) die from old age. Then newer, younger families -- of diverse backgrounds, and who appreciate the convenience of mass transit -- will begin to migrate to those neighborhoods.
BTW, sorry you missed the Waterfront Tour -- I was looking forward to meeting up.
Doug aka BMTman
(Looking forward to meeting you). I think you DID meet me on the Willie B ride. Perhaps I didn't make much of an impression. Or am I confusing you with someone else?
You are correct. We met and chatted briefly at the 'Final Ride' on the Willy B.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Larry, Who's land is that??
Jeff, your link doesn't come up on my machine - what's up?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does Any one have photos both past and present of the South Brooklyn Railroad Of The NYTA/MTA That can be posted on this site.
In the NY Post Sunday Sept. 19, page 9, is a article about Rudy Giuliani is urging the MTA to build a new communter rail station near Yankees Stadium to service fans. There is also a list of other MTA plans for the nyc subways in this story.
I thought that a Metro-North station was already near Yankee Stadium?
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
They've been talking about it for years, but there is not now, and never has been, a station on the Hudson Line where it passes Yankee Stadium.
While the Harlem Line does, in theory, have a station at 162nd St. (Melrose), it is dirty, has short platforms, is inaccessible (entered through hidden stairways) and almost no trains stop there - and it is not very close to the stadium.
There was once a station, Highbridge, on the Hudson Line at Depot Place (hence the street's name), a street near 167th which is perhaps better known today as "that entrance onto the Major Deegan southbound from the local streets". But that's not too close to the stadium either, and it's been gone for years.
The Yankees' program and scorecard has a page that gives transportation direction to fans. For Metro North service fans are directed to take the #4 to 125th St. and pick up Metro North service.
Rudy only care about the Yankees not the Mets. That why i didn't vote for him for mayor. I never like him at all.
Peace Out
Meaney
Oh yeah, that makes a LOT of sense. Don't vote for him because he's a fan of the other team. Voted for the guy who decided that race riots were a good way for a community to vent its anger, huh?
-Hank
Hey Hank: Get those New Yorkers of yours on the right track and put Rudy in the Senate.......and tell the TA to do something about those rats in the subway. No I don't mean the Clintons---not this time anyway.
I don't think we'll see Mr. Bill in the subway. Besides, smoking isn't allowed - cigars or otherwise. On top of all that, he'd have trouble remembering where he boarded or where he's supposed to get off.
Rim shot!
Sounds like the Bill we know and &*&*%%$$##. Would Hilarious Hillary be in the tunnels playing with her friends?
Sorry to tell ya, but while we may get train station if Rudy is in senate, he'll take away more of our rights. Don't vote for him just because he says he's going to do us a favor. For every "favor" he does us, he screws us ten times.
WELL SAID!!!!!
HILLARY IS THE BETTER OF THE 2 EVILS!!!!!
As a cop, Rudy has screwed us at every contract time.
BX55: Hey we're communicating. I live in California so I can't vote for Rudy, but if you think Hillary the Carpetbagger is better for your state, well, you may have a political problem. Any woman who would let a man play her like a ragdoll as he husband has must be short of self respect. THERE__GOT YA. See, I do defend women and believe that no man should disrespect them. If I pulled that on my wife, she'd throw me out on my ears and I'd deserve it. She does think that my
fanaticism about the Sea Beach is a little wierd and it is, but when I'm in her good graces she calls me "Sea Beach Man" And please, no more Freddy. Hope to hear from you soon. Kudos to your boyfriend for defending you. I hope to communicate with him again.
I still hate Rudy despite the fact he likes the Yankees!!!
The real problem is, a new station wouldn't make it any easier for Hillary to come down from Chappaqua to see her favorite team, since she'd be riding in on the Harlem line and would have that 162nd St. station and a long walk down to River Ave. to deal with.
That really breaks my heart. Maybe if she tried it she would get mugged and get her carcass out of New York where she doesn't belong and back to Illinois or Washington or that village of hers.
The plan is for a new Metro North Station on the Hudson, Harlem and New Haven lines adjacent to Yankee Stadium. There is a track that circles around from the Concourse Yards to the Hudson line. I don't know if they are crazy enough to put in a grade-separated junction there. They would need a yard to store Harlem and New Haven line trains for the return trip.
There was also some talk of running LIRR trains up the West Side, over the Spuyten Duyvil Bridge, and down the Hudson Line to the stadium (despite power incompatibility, etc).
The question is, where is the excuse for giving them money when owners everywhere, faced with resistence to subsidies, are building their own stadia without subsidy? I'm all for the station -- it could be used for park-n-ride during non-game days. But it would be outrageous to pay for a new stadium. Only Rudy would propose it, and not during a Senate race.
My understanding is that even in the places where owners are putting up their own money for new stadiums, the local (or state) governments generally pay for access infrastructure (and a majority of the localities still give some aid to the buildings themselves, although complete Camden Yards-style giveaways are less and less common).
Frankly, if a Metro North station was the cost of keeping the Yanks in the current building, and came with an additional bridge over the tracks to the general admission parking lots, I think it would be well worth it.
I hadn't heard about the plan to run Harlem and New Haven service in there, but the loop track from the Hudson Line into the old Mott Haven yard would probably work, and it's already in place. If there was really a need for layup space, you could put that in Highbridge yard (the site of a failed intermodal facility that it now used mostly for extra-legal commerce and concrete tie storage).
BTW, if you ever get your hands on the feasibility study for Yankee Stadium alternatives the city commissioned back in 1996, make sure you're settled in for a good laugh. They looked at five options (including, as I recall, Southern Staten Island and Van Cortlandt Park) and decided only three were viable at all (Renovating the existing building, building a new stadium next door, or relocating to the West Side Yards).
On an "economic" basis, the studiers decided the West Side Yards were the best bet. But the calculations they used to get there were hysterical.
They included things like a new highway bridge over the Harlem River (so Jersey-bound drivers could tie up both the Deegan and the Harlem River Drive en route to the GWB) in the estimate of the cost of staying put. Meanwhile, the only transportation infrastructure they foresaw as being necessary at the West Side location was ramps into a new parking garage. No mention of a 7-line extension. No talk of a LIRR station in the basement. Nothing! They concluded you could just drop this thing in the middle of midtown!
"Did I see the study." My office produced it, but I was not persoanlly involved (thank God). The calculations were hysterical only to those who didn't read between the lines. The report was phrased very carefully.
The study said that extending the #7 subway line to the convention center area and building the stadium would attact enough commercial development to the area to be profitable for the city. Almost all the revenues "from the stadium" were due to the property taxes from commercial development in the area.
Readers of this page know the punchline. A #7 line extension alone would probably attract as much commercial development WITHOUT the stadium, but that was left unsaid. Even though it looks like the stadium won't be moving, we still want to extend the #7.
I think we're talking about two different things. In early 96, the city commissioned a third-party study on Stadium alternatives from, I think, KPMG. That was the one that manipulated the cost estimates to make it look like relocating or renovating would cost the same.
I also remember the economic activity study I think you're referring to. That was released in conjunction with the Mayor's budget when he came up with the idea of postponing the corporate franchise tax rollback, right? I didn't think that evaluated any Bronx alternatives...
Jeffrey: I like Rudy but have hated the Yankees since I was six.
Spoken like a true Brooklyn Dodger fan.
who rides the bus to Dodger Station anyway? At least Anaheim has a train station outside the Center Field Parking lot
Metro opened Columbia Heights and Georgia Avenue completing the "inner" green line. Columbia Heights is an island platform station, the mezzanine is at the north end of the station. The bus shelters have maps in them of the whole bus system in DC and the routes that stop there and will be lighted at night. The elevators are larger than at the other stations (making it easier to fit 2 bikes in the elevator) but are extremely slow like at all the other stations.
Georgia Avenue-Petworth is the same except the mezzanine is at the south end and there are no bus shelters with maps and lights.
Both stations have 2 enterances at the street and the elevator is on the west side. SmarTrip is only accepted at 2 gates in each station (the handicapped gate and one other on the other side of the kiosk).
P.S. The Green line shortcut is not running anymore due to the station openings and now being able to have thru service to Gallery Place. Trains go only 40 MPH except between Georgia Avenue and Columbia Heights where they go 65.
Don't you mean between Georgia Avenue and Fort Totten? The two new stations are pretty close together, plus there's a reverse curve north of Columbia Heights. I can just see them whipping around thise little turns at 65MPH. There's a long stretch with one curve between Georgia Avenue and Fort Totten.
BTW - WHAT DO THESE STATIONS LOOK LIKE? What kind of ceiling vault do they use? Do they look like:
a) "U" Street-Cardozo (waffle vault)
b) Woodley Park-Zoo (long vault-Arch I)
c) Mt Vernon Square-UDC (split long vault-Arch III)
d) None of the above
Thanks in advance - I need this info for the DC Metro "Green Line" page station-by-station descriptions.
Wayne
My bad. I meant Georgia Avenue and Fort Totten. We'd probably have DC's version of Malbone Street if they were going 65 there.
They have an arch vault. You'd need to define Arch I, II, and III in order for me to tell you which one. Despite riding the Metro for years, I can't answer that question. If u are or anyone u know is going to DC, tell them to get the Metro Riders News brochure. It has an OK description of the stations. It is NOT at http://www.wmata.com.
Arch I vault is found at Red Line stations between Woodley Park-Zoo and Medical Center. It only has two longitudinal crossmembers, near the crown of the arch.
Arch II vault is found only at Wheaton, Forest Glen and the underground part of the Fort Totten station. It is lower and rounder
and it has one crossmember at the crown of the arch.
Arch III vault is found at Glenmont and Mt.Vernon Square-UDC. It is basically the same as Arch I except it has two additional crossmembers halfway up the arch on either side.
My guess is that they look like Mt.Vernon Square-UDC.
Thanks,
Wayne
I observed that the two stations are similar to Red line's Glenmont station.
Chaohwa
That is Arch III. I will revise the Green Line page to reflect that station design.
Now, we move on to the South end of the Green Line. Anybody had a sneak peek? I know WMATAGMOH reported that Naylor Road is well under way.
Have they given the Blue Line a green light east of Addison Road?
They were waiting for an EIS (environmental impact study) result. Wonder how they're making out. That is to be surface, so it shouldn't be that tough or time-consuming to build.
Wayne
They are still working on the Largo extension to my knowledge...
Thanks for all the information! BTW - I got Arch II and III mixed up (see the DC Page) - must have left my brains upstairs :o) ANYWAY - did they actually break ground on the Largo extension or is it still in planning?
I e-mailed Dave with the additions/corrections. I added the entry for the time-line as well.
Wayne
That is Arch II (my previous post had described it incorrectly - I had II and III transposed). I will revise the Green Line page to reflect that station design. It also needs to be brought into the present tense - one paragraph at the beginning of the page has to have two sentences removed.
Now, we move on to the South end of the Green Line. Anybody had a sneak peek? I know WMATAGMOH reported that Naylor Road is well under way.
Have they given the Blue Line a green light east of Addison Road?
They were waiting for an EIS (environmental impact study) result. Wonder how they're making out. That is to be surface, so it shouldn't be that tough or time-consuming to build.
Wayne
Did anyone hear about protesting at the two new stations. My son, who
lives in College Park, said he rode the train yesterday and saw the protesters. He said it's a nick, quick ride into downtown. I can't wait to go down and try it out!
Chuck Greene
What were they protesting?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
They were protesting about land development surrounding these two metro stations.
Chaohwa
It would be Arch III then. You may also want to take out the parts about the green line shortcut from the red and green line pages. Also, Metro is doing major work at Mt. Vernon Square. More on that at http://www.wmata.com. Click on news. It may have been taken off, though.
Does this mean that Metro's original 103 mile system as originally planned is now fully completed? I travel to the DC area once or twice a year and have ridden every line except the Green.
No. There are 5 green line stations to open in 2001: Congress Heights (at the south end of St. Elizabeth's Hospital), Southern Avenue (near a street in the 30s), Naylor Road (and Suitland Parkway), Suitland (Silverhill Road and Suitland Parkway), and Branch Avenue (near Suitland Parkway). I have seen Naylor Road and it seems to be coming along.
Congress Heights is supposed to be near 13th & Alabama Avenue SE, and is to be the last underground station to be built for the original system. Southern Avenue is planned to be near 23rd Parkway and Southern Avenue, on the DC line near Oxon Run Hills.
Wayne
Is there some written rule against cleaning the NYC subway stations? Upon a recent trip, the stations appeared to be in good shape but in dire need of a good hosing & scrubbing. Some of the dirt & grime looked like it had been there for a couple of years. I realize that the subways are heavily used, but at the same time, the trains were clean (no garbage anywhere, etc). Also, would it be THAT hard for the MTA to replace some of the broken tiles before whole sections of them are ripped off the walls by passerbys?
Must be they fired all the station cleaners during the financial crunch.
The stations are cleaned- but there are not enough cleaners and supervision often uses cleaners as messengers to deliver supplies. Each underground station is covered by a Mobile Wash team. The Mobile Wash Team (MObile Wash- MW) uses high pressure hoses like in the car washes to soap wash and rinse station platforms and tile walls on local stations. Station columns are brushed wirth soap and rinsed as are overhead signage. Stations with tile floors have a cleaner called a Heavy Duty Cleaner (HDC) who uses a scrubber machine to scrub the floors.
The problem with the subways is the homeless and the slobs-- they throw their trash on the floors or tracks and use columns, underpasses as public restrooms--and not just liquid waste!
**opinions expressed are my own and not those of MTA or nYCT**
I'm sorry, but I can't believe it. I can't say that seeing trash or other undesirable substances on the platforms was a problem. There was a little bit of garbage (newspapers, etc.) on the tracks, but it certainly didn't look like a landfill. BUT, the walls and ceilings of the stations were just absolutely, positively gross. With the way that it was caked on there, it wasn't a matter of the crew "forgetting" to do it for a few weeks. Regarding people using the platforms as public restrooms, my mother was telling me about a time when she was up there and there was human excriment on the platform. Not sure how anyone could just do that on the platform, but as the bumper sticker says, "it happens".
Throughout the years, the NYCTA and MTA didn't do anything to clean the stations so they fell into disrepair. The stuck on grime you saw can not be removed, the tiles have to go. When the MTA renovates a station (now, not before, they care nowadays) they rip out the white tiles, restore and/or duplicate the mosaics and plaques and put in new tiles while overlaying the concrete floor with tiles. Those stations are nice and are kept clean. You must have been unlucky enough not to use any of the nice stations (Like the stops on the 1/9 south of 72 are mostly renovated and nice).
Sometimes they take a short-cut and hang pre-fab panel tile on the wall, covering the existing ratty tile. They did this at Chambers Street-H&M (A/C) [see the 8th Avenue IND Station-by-Station for photo evidence of this work-in-progress], Canal Street (A/C/E), 7th Avenue (B/D/E), 207th Street (A), Broadway-Lafayette (B/D/F/Q). Sometimes they'll hand-set them, like at Chambers Street-WTC (C/E), 14th Street (A/C/E), Bergen Street (F/G). Some IND renovations have omitted the black-and-white captions; somewhere along the way, someone caught the error/omission and they've begun to add them to the recent ones. Still, stations like 110th St-CPW, and Chambers St-WTC (C/E) are missing them, a particularly glaring mistake at the latter station.
The entire wall treatment looks wrong without them.
Wayne
Ride the subway during the midnite hours and you will come across the mobile wash teams. The platforms may not look cleaner, but the black spots is discarded chewing gum. If they were never cleaned, they would be sticky and have stains due to spilt liquids. Tiles which look dirty probably have some kind of water damage. If the stations were NEVER washed, especially underground, dirt, grime and dust would be on all the station walls. Subway buff and myself have nothing to gain by lying to you over this issue. When you consider the number of people who pass thru the stations daily (vs Miami, for example!), it is almost a losing batttle.
I've been through continental ave when those guys are there. It doesn't seem to affect the grime. Either that, or the grime came back in the 8 hours I was at work.
Because of the opening of two Green line station, I rode Metrorail yesterday. When I was behind the cab, motermen still used manual train operation.
I know that automatic train operation (ATO) is currently suspended now because it caused huge service disruptions last May. What are the defects of Metrorail's ATO?
Chaohwa
There still seem to be problems with the relays. As usual, the project has been delayed for months. The trackwork between Tenley and Van Ness has been cleared from the Glenmont-bound tracks but trains are still going 22 MPH around that curve.
That's enough speed there! That curve is not banked and the Breda cars howl and screech entering and leaving Tenleytown. You can hear it in the station proper, uncharacteristic for Metrorail. They probably have the same speed restrictions on either side of Potomac Avenue, another tight curve and wheel noise problem area. Did they do the same thing north of Metro Center on the Blue/Orange Line?
Personally, I prefer manual train operation as opposed to ATO. Just makes me feel safer.
Wayne
Actually, they don't. The trains go at about 40 MPH on the 2 curves you mentioned. The trains in the tunnel between Tenley and Van Ness ome to an average speed of 41.6 MPH heading north, 42.5 heading south with the first curve having a speed of 40. With it being 22, the average speed is 36.75. The trains when in automatic go 34 on the south side on the first turn. I knew someone who went from Friedship Heights to McPherson Square and reported that the curve between McPherson and Metro had a terrible noise which has now stopped.
Then they must have remedied that wheel noise problem. I remember clearly Rohr 1237 on the Blue line going from McPherson Square to Metro Center - what a howl that train made! Worse than in NYC, shriller and more piercing. Last time (last year), still heard some noise out at Potomac Avenue (Rohr 1158-1159). And Breda 3053 made some noise at Tenleytown, but none leaving Van Ness-UDC. They're working on the wheel noise issue here in NYC, using water sprayers to lubricate the tracks at Grand Central and South Ferry, perhaps a few other places too. It does help.
Wayne
>Personally, I prefer manual train operation as opposed to ATO.
>Just makes me feel safer.
Sure doesn't for me - esp after friday's amtrak trip, which featured 90mph running around Strafford, CT. I asked the conductor how fast we were going (it seemed WAY faster than useual), that's the number I got, I asked the conductor since when did Metro-North bump the speed from 75 to 90, I got a reply of "technically we're not supposed to go this fast, but we're really late today". Great. Oh, and we slid into Stamford. At New Rochelle, we had to do a reverse move, after backing up, the engineer did *not* come to a full stop before going forward again. There's now some amfleet car out there with an imprint of my face on the floor (no seats, 5 car train from Boston, 2 cafes, ARRGGHH). And we went WAY fast below New Rochelle too. It just seemed that at a lot of places, we were going a LOT faster than useual. How the ASC system allows this is beyond me. I can hardly wait for acela :/
Oh yes, and comming up today, I noticed that there's still a few origional NY W&B signals above the tracks in the Bronx...
Another thing - comming into penn, the ASC box on the LIRR train I was on was going quickly between 0 and 30 (I was in the head car, the cab door was open as useual). Is this an actualy indication, or was it acting up?
What was the huge disruption? I noticed manual operation when I visited WashDC this summer, but I thought that the ATO just didn't work out.
What was the problem?
Brandon
Actually it happened in April. I remembered that during PM rush hours several trains were down on Red, Orange, and Blue lines, which caused the whole system shutdown. A lot of commuters had to take Metrobuses to go home.
The shutdown is caused by flaws in the ATO. Since that shutdown, WMATA has ordered motormen to use manual train operation, and the Command Center has worked full time.
Chaohwa
After I retreived the related articles from the Washington Post, I finally understand what happened.
Because of the problem of relays, Metrorail ordered motormen to use manual train operation before the relays were renewed. Because some of the motorman were not very familiar with MTO, they tended to overuse brakes. Because they overused brakes, trains tended to brake down very often.
It seems that the relay problem still have not been fixed yet; therefore, motormen still use MTO now.
Chaohwa
After I retreived the related articles from the Washington Post, I finally understand what happened.
Because of the problem of relays, Metrorail ordered motormen to use manual train operation before the relays were renewed. Because some of the motorman
were not very familiar with MTO, they tended to overuse brakes. Because they overused brakes, trains tended to brake down very often.
It seems that the relay problem still have not been fixed yet; therefore, motormen still use MTO now.
A good illustration of the reason why the RATP in Paris at least *used to* require motormen to operate at least one round trip manually during every shift.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
Doesn't the automated PATCO (New Jersey to Philadelphia via Ben Franklin Bridge) line do the same thing; that is, operate the first run of each train manually to check for faults? And if so, is that just the first run of the day in each direction for the line or is it the first run of the day for each trainset?
As I understand it, each motorman runs at least one run each way each day under manual control, to keep up his skills. That probably works out to two or sometimes three round trips per day per set of equipment. I don't know if the first trip out for a particular consist must be run manually, although that seems likely anyway, given that a fresh consist out of the yard is probably being operated by a motorman just coming on duty.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In a surprise move, phase two of the extended Jubilee Line was opened
to passengers last Friday (17th)between North Greenwich and Bermondsy.
So the following are now open:
.
Stratford phase 1
West Ham phase 1
Canning Town phase 1
North Greenwich phase 1
Canary Wharf new phase 2
Canada Water new phase 2
Bermondsey new phase 2
---------------------------
This just leaves the following section to open:
.
Bermondsey
London Bridge
Southwark
Waterloo
connection to current Jubilee Line south of Green Park.
.
Trains running on phase 1 and 2 on Monday to Friday daytimes only.
Regards
RoB :^)
I've been active at Seashore for over a decade. But today I had the opportunity to stop at Branford (Shoreline) on my drive down from Boston to NYC. I was hosted by SubTalkers Jeff H. and Steve K., who are active there (and who recently visited us at Seashore!). While I only had two hours to spend, they showed me a great time, and I had a chance to operate the Third Avenue car #629. They were in the midst of shifting things around to prepare for "New York Days."
Whether it's Seashore, Shoreline, Warehouse Point, TMNY/Kingston, Baltimore, Orange Empire, Illinois Railway Museum, or any of the many others... join! Support! Participate! You'll be glad you did.
Todd, like many of us, I'm planning to go to Shore Line for New York Days - Sunday, for me, assuming the weather is good. I might see about ponying up the cash to pilot a streetcar myself, depending on how tightly my wife holds my wallet!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm glad you had a great time. It's unfortunate that I couldn't meet you. "Support Your Favorite Trolley Museum" is one slogan that many SubTalkers shouldn't forget.
-Stef
The only time I've been to Branford, the subways weren't running, only the trolleys. One question, do the subway cars run right up to the museum building on the street (Where you first get on the trolley) during Autumn in NY?
No, because of dynamic loading restrictions on the East Haven
Trestle, subway cars are not run over it. Subway (and el) cars
are boarded in the main yard area from the high-level platform.
As Jeff H. stated there's a high level platform located in the yard. Are you coming up in October for the Autumn in NY event? I'll be there, as will others. Subway cars will run every few minutes from the high level platform. Transfers between the streetcars and subway cars is available at the Farm River Road Stop in the yard area.
-Stef
Does the hudson bergen line use all new rights of way or are some former rail liunes used
> are some former rail liunes used
Yes. In the section from Bayonne to Jersey City, the CRRNJ main was reused.
Also, through Hoboken and Weehauken, the line will follow the existing freight ROW. Not sure about North of Weehauken.
Does anybody have an official NYCTA subway map from 1985 where the Manhattan Bridge and Brighton line diversions on the bottom left of the map and the double letters that are taken away?
While surfing the illustrated car roster, I came across the Multi-Sectional trains section which I perused for the first time. There were a number of Sea Beach cars on it which, naturally, got my antenna up. When did these trains run on the line? Does anybody know? I believe I rode them a few times in 1946-1947, but after that I know it was the Triplexes I rode on. Someone help me out there.
The Multis were tested on the Sea Beach express tracks, but almost all regular service was on the Eastern Division, mostly Canarsie and 14th St.-Fulton St. After the last piece of Fulton St. closed they were mostly on Myrtle-Chambers.
Even though there's a picture of a multi with the number "4" on the front, it might be a fan trip. I haven't found anything which shows them being used on the Sea Beach in regular service.
When were the Multi's discontinued and how different were they from the Green Hornet Blimp???
The Multis ran in service from May of 1936 to September 5,1961. The Green Hornet was built by the Pullman Company while the first ten Multis (7004-7013)were built by the Saint Louis Car Company. The last 15 Multis (7014-7028) were built by Pullman-Standard. The Green Hornet had a low arch or turtle back roof while the Multis had more of a clerestory type of roof.(The roof vents on the St Louis Multis were more evnly spaced while those on the P-S Multis were grouped into two groups of three.)The Green Hornet had brown leather-type seats while the Multis had cane seats.The Green Hornet was painted in two shades of green with an aluminum painted roof while the Multis were painted BMT brown with silver roof. The Green Hornet was built largely of aluminum while the Multis were built of low-alloy high tension steel(LAHT).
Larry,RedbirdR33
Are there any still in existance anywhere?
9/19/99
To my knowledge there are all gone. However,I was told in the early 1980's that when scrapped in 1961 some or all were sold and sentout east on the North Fork to be used as cabanas. Well I was so obsessed by this I investigated on my vacation time.I Checked government offices and was even brought into a Southold Town board meeting on the spot and told my story with a straight face. Before I received a rejecting NO they all looked at me like I was from MARS. Funny,when I left that building I felt the same way about them and their receptionist. Until a photographic proof or the Multl/cabana bodies turn up,this is will be just a rumor. I was told this years ago by a trusted friend who is a reliable source,and this not made up to make you laugh. PLEASE DON'T CALL BELLVUE!!!
Bill Newkirk
Bill: Don't feel bad. As a certified railfan you're probably on Bellvue's short list anyway along with the rest of us. Remember all those LIRR fantrips. Remember had they all had the obligatory stop at the Creedmoor Siding.
Best Wishes,Larry,RedbirdR33
Bill& Larry: We have to be a little odd to be such railfan fanatics. So who gives a hoot in hell what some yokels think.
We're proud of our intensity in an area we love and we know something they don't and that is one hell of trip for all of us. You should have seen me last month when I visited New York. I went up and introduced myself as Sea Beach Man and shook their hands. One motorman on the Sea Beach grinned broadly and recognized my title. I don't know if he is online or not at this website. The other conductors were friendly, if not bemused. Some probably thought I was a little batty. The passengers debarking with me when I got off
had me pegged as a certified loony. Who cared? I was having a blast and letting them know who I was, proud to be part of this great group.
Fred: I was indulging in a little self-deprecation. Our hobby does seem to have come of age. Back in the 60's is was okay for boys to play with toy trains but they kind of were expected to age out of it when they grew up. Happily some of us kept playing with trains,only bigger ones. People also started to develope respect for railfans once they realized that very often we were the only ones who knew how to get some place by train.
By the way, did I metion that the tickets to Creedmoor were one way only.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I for one can't agree with you more. I play only with the biggest toys, and I share the biggest train set in the world, with 469 stations, 700-plus miles of track, and almost 6000 trains, with all of my friends and fellow rail fans.
Wayne
Funny you should mention Creedmore. The NYPD has some facilities in the old section of Creedmore. I went to auto crime school there a couple of years ago. It was in a wing of a gigantic building which was closed in the 70's. The NYPD wing was the only one open. During meal hour one day me and a friend sneaked into the rest of the building. Everything was left the way it was on its last day including things hanging on walls, linen, and personal effects on desks. It was as if they were evacuated with the idea they could come back and move. It was very eerie, even more so than Chambers St BMT!!!
By the way, you mentioned children playing with trains. Did you hear about the hillbilly couple visiting NYC for the 1rst time? While his wife was unpacking at the hotel he decided to go to a bar. He got very drunk and staggered outside whereby he fell down a staircase right in the middle of a sidewalk at a corner. When he finally got back to the room his wife asked, "Where have you been?" He answered, "I was just in some guy's basement and Boy, does he have some set of trains!!!"
I got my wrap-around jacket a LONG time ago......
Since were on the topic of Creedmoor, after a tour a few years back, I was approached by a man and his son, who with total sincerity, told me there is a Brooklyn PCC stuck in some sort of ramp or hole along the Sea Beach line near 7th or 8th Av. He claims it was left on a lead track to some sort of a former meat processing plant.
If it turns out that his brains were not also meat, I would be glad to crane it out immediately.
9/22/99
WILD STORIES!! I love em. I don't think that story told to you was by some mental case but probably passed from mouth to ear and got wilder by the time it got to you.
Let me tell you a couple of stories I heard that are just as wild.
1) B Type #2321 when scrapped was not cut up but intact,when followed over the Verrazano Narrows bridge to New Jersey but the person broke off the trail. The B-type at that time was said to travel in the opposite direction but not in the direction of Sarnelli's (scrap dealer).
2) A barge of R-40 slant brand new from St.Louis car Co. were being floated over and sprand a leak and sank and the R-40's are still at the bottom of the river. New R-40 slants were built to replace the sunken ones.
3) Of course my earlier post about the bodies of the BMT Multi section cars going east (LI) to be used as cabanas.
NOW FOR A REALITY TRIP!
1) There are 7 bodies of LIRR ping pong steam/diesel coaches and 2 CNJ Blue Comet observation cars that were used as flea market (now failed). THIS IS TRUE! Located up on the NJ Transit Boonton station these cars DO EXIST and although are boarded up are being entered into by either homeless or vandals. It's a matter of time before they are torched. They must be saved. Even the owner of the train station building,now a restaurant would love to have them off his property.
Spread the word,they're on their trucks and need some work.
2) The D-type (B section) that was on the side of the Route 28 (near upstate Kingston,upstate NY). This WAS there and I and others saw it. Just like the BMT Multi section caper I was obsessed. I made visits to local stores gas stations,a post office and asked questions. The property was developed but the D type was not scrapped. The owner of the furniture where the D type was said it was sold,trucked furthur upstate near Albany. That's when I headed north,asked questions,logged miles and eventually found the D-type,but never saw it personally. Spoke to owner of land it sits on now and was told it was converted into latrine! Property is a defunct camp grounds. Could't see or photograph it because it was hunting season,don't have KEVLAR! Also back to fanstasy,I was told the A and C bodies of that B unit was in the Kingston area also. here we go again!
SORRY FOR THE LONG POST! I am of sound mine and didn't male up what you've just read. As far as these WILD STORIES we all hear. I'LL BELIEVE IT,WHEN I SEE IT!!
Bill Newkirk
Wouldn't it be nice if those Triplex sections could be located, reassembled, and restored?
This is not without precedent. For a long time, former PCC bodies were used at a day camp in Far Rockaway, Queens.
(And I have a life-time pass for Bellvue :)
--Mark
Brooklyn Day Camp, near the Hamills Wye.
I always knew Broad Channel was the Better Day Camp
I can tell you for sure that there WERE 3 or more PCC car bodies at Brooklyn Daycamp- I went there, and they were used as locker/changing rooms. I only lasted in that place for a week, it was a real dive, although the canoe trips around the sunken barges were interesting.
I totally forgot about that place, until about 1983, when I happened to be driving by, and saw an excavator crunching up the PCC bodies! Its surprising that the older museum people never grabbed these brooklyn cars after the daycamp went out. I dont recall what the numbers were, but they had NYC Transit logos still on them, and were painted green and silver.
9/22/99
At the time those PCC bodies were being scrapped I was told somebody was trying to acquire them or one of them but the owner of the property steadfastly refused and scrapped the bodies anyway. I heard Branford made a pitch for them but till this day this was not confirmed.
Bill Newkirk
We kids wondered what kind of wierd buses these were, since they still had the operator seat but no steering wheel, and there was just one winged headlight in front
Jeff: As Bill has said not one of these beauties was saved. As was mentioned earlier on this site the Green Hornet went off to war in 1942 but all the other wonders;Multis,Bluebirds and the Zephyr were scrapped. We were lucky that they managed to save one R-11 for the transit museum.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember when the R-11 replaced the Standards on the Franklin Shuttle (or was it vice-versa). I thought they were ugly as anything back then with those silly round door windows but I actually was glad to see the car at the museum. I guess time really does heal old wounds because I really hated the R-10's back then ('cause they weren't R1-9's) but now I'd love to ride on one. By the way, wasn't there an IRT car a little like the R-11 (but not stainless steel)
That would have been the R-15. It was the only other car that had the four "portholes" on the side doors.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Jeffrey: Yesterday I printed a copy of an R11 train and for me it was heavenly. First of all, it ran on the Sea Beach line, and the date was January 24, 1970. Jan. 24 is my wife's birthday, 1970 was the year we were married, and on that date this R11 was at King's Highway not with the letter "N" as its insignia, but with a #4, the old id of the Sea Beach. Nostalgia came flooding back to me. Larry,Redbird R33 told me that the train was probably on loan to the Sea Beach line for the day or the week or whatever. I've always wondered whether it was an IRT train from the Jerome Line that carried the #4 then as now. But doesn't IRT trains and tracks differ from BMT or was all standard by 1970? I'm sure it wasn't a fan trip because it didn't say so and they don't have those things in January.
Just FYI - the R11 never carried lettered curtain rolls - they had the BMT Numbered ones. On the Franklin Shuttle, they wore #7. On the West End, their last stand, they wore #3.
Wayne
Back in the 50 s they also wore 1 and just stayed at the Inbound Local track just North of Prospect Park
Didn't the R-11s have IND letter signs at one end of each car and the BMT numbers at the other?
There were separate division maps at either end, too, with the IND map showing IND lines in gold when the backlights were turned on (the map lines were red when the backlights were turned off during BMT operation). I don't recall riding the R-11s on the IND, but I do remember seeing the lighted gold on the IND map, so it's possible I did.
Half of the side signs and the end signs would have been the same as the R-10 signs, I'd assume.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Never saw anything but numbers on R11s, and I've seen all ten of them
and ridden on five of them, all on the Franklin Shuttle.
Wayne
WayneMrSlantR40: Thanks" You solved a real mystery to me. How long did the R11's run? And when were they discarded?
I am not sure of the exact date the R11 last ran in revenue service, but I believe it was around the mid 1970s. Larry RedbirdR33 may have the exact dates of their retirement, since he has the journals. They languished around the yards a while before going to scrap. #8013 was saved, and sits in the Transit Museum. #8016 had an accident in CI Yard and suffered some front end damage.
Wayne
Supposedly, one of the R-11s was modified in order to m. u. with other SMEE cars after R-16 6494 met its untimely demise.
Questions: as delivered, were the R-11s in fact not compatible with other postwar equipment?
Were they compatible after being rebuilt under the R-34 contract?
Steve: R-11 8010 was modified to run with the R-16's after 6494 met the bumpers at Broad Street. As delivered the R-11's could not mix with the other units but after the R-34 rebuilding they could.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks. What sort of modification(s) did 8010 receive?
Steve: The best information that I have was that #8010's auxilliaries were converted from AC to DC and that the car was altered to train with R-16's. Exactly what that means I don't know maybe someone else can give us a more detailed explanation.
Larry,RedbirdR33
That's about all the information I could find both in New York Subway Cars and Gene Sansone's book. The R-11s had the same H-2-C couplers and SMEE braking system as the other postwar R units, so it makes you wonder what else had to be done.
IRT and BMT/IND trains have always had the same guage, which is also the national standard, 1.4351 meters. The car dimensions however, are different. An IRT car is 15.6 meters long and 2.6 meters wide. A BMT/IND car is 3 meters wide and either 18.3 or 22.9 meters long. So, an R-11 (18*3) would not be able to negotiate the IRT. The trains would fit on the tracks, in fact, work cars are all IRT dimensions. But the BMT/IND car would be unable to take some IRT curves, not fit into the original Contract I tunnels (1904 IRT plan) and I guess the els too and the Steinway Tunnel. On the rest of the IRT, the train would smash into the platforms.
IRT and BMT/IND trains have always had the same guage, which is also the national standard, 1.4351 meters. The car dimensions however, are different. An IRT car is 15.6 meters long and 2.6 meters wide. A BMT/IND car is 3 meters wide and either 18.3 or 22.9 meters long.
Heresy!
To quote a poster on another newsgroup quoting Grandpa Simpson:
"My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I like it!"
[To quote a poster on another newsgroup quoting Grandpa Simpson:
"My car gets 40 rods to the hogshead, and that's the way I like it!"]
Yes, the metric system is the tool of the devil.
Gotta love those Simpsons
That same picture is on this site. Maybe Dave knows the answ. to your question. It probably is in regular service because this site usually mentions if it was a fan trip in the caption.
> this site usually mentions if it was a fan trip in the caption.
I *try* to if it's obviously a fan trip or it was in the caption of the slide. I have a ton of slides with no caption or attribution whatsoever and I think the Multi picture we're talking about came from that group. I don't really know what the background of that picture is...
-Dave
One unit number of MS consisted of five little cars numbered (may not be in the correct order) i.e. 7010A 7010A1 7010B 7010B1 and 7010C.
Their roof line is "Ogee", which also appeared on cars like the Steinway WF Lo-V, R-10, R-12 and R-14. Very handsome-looking cars. They even had front-end destination signs. Unfortunately, I don't think any of them survived.
Wayne
Wayne: The number sequence was A-B-C-B1-A1.
Larry,RedbirdR33
In case anybody's interested, the LIRR has a full page ad in today's Newsday (Sun 9/19) on page A47 with a 3/4 page picture of the interior of the new bi-level car.
Yeah they say you can sleep on one of those.
It looks like the old card games are out.
I missed Sunday Newsday.
What's the thrust of the ad? Are they advertising to boost a line of business, or just boasting they got something new?
Just advertising the railroad itself. It talked about the comfort and the privacy of the new cars.
Could somebody post a copy of the picture on the forum.
Thanks.
I've been reading about how many of my colleagues on this website have done some investigating to find out what happened to some rail cars and have been looked upon those questioned as certified loonies. Hey, do we really give a hoot to what they think? We know what we have here and what that is are a bunch of guys who love what the New York Subway System is, was and will always be to us. Let's face it, those yokels who look at us as wierd are fruitcakes themselves and have no clue of what they're missing or missed. You should have seen me last month riding the subway and introducing myself as "The Sea Beach Man". One motorman recognized the name and smiled broadly as he shook my hand. I wonder if he is on this website. Most of the motormen and conductors I introduced myself to were friendly but bemused. Most of the passengers thought I was nuts.
Who cared? I was having a blast as we all do on this website. If others don;t appreciate it, well tough tacos on them.
Same with me, I love the buses and subways in NYC! I find that i get the weirdest looks when I take a picture of a bus and train, then io'm questioned about it with some wierd look upon peoples faces, then when I tell them that I love the MTA and have since age 5, and also that I have a webpage dedicated to the Transit in New York City, they think its the coolest! The most welcoming employees have been Staten Island Bus Drivers and Motormen! Also the Department of Buses Brass have been pretty cool too!!!!!!
Trevor
Trevor: You're my kind of person. Keep snapping those picture. I have one with a big smile on my face standing next to a tunnel at Avenue U on the Sea Beach Line.
Although I don't consider us strange I must admit some of my habits regarding trains could be a little strange for a 46 yr old. For example:When driving I will always go out of my way to take a street that has a grade crossing and pray the gates would go down right when I get there.(Hoping for a diesel) My wife asked me why I don't take Herricks Rd to her sister's anymore and I'm afraid to say its because they built that damn bridge!!! (I take Willis Av now)I take my 3yr old son on all day subway trips to nowhere.I still come home with a dirty nose from the front window.When NYPD merged with Transit they sent us to transit training at the train yard by the Van Wyck & Union Tnpk and I knew almost as much as the instructor!
Strangely enough, my wife has not only grown tolerant of such habits, she encourages them from time to time! We were running a bit ahead of a Bay Head-Long Branch train a couple of weeks ago and she actually wanted me to slow down so we could pace it. Then, after it had made a station stop, she wanted me to slow down again so we would have to wait for it at the crossing. Now if our grandson was with us I could understand - he's crazy about trains (much to the distress of our daughter and her husband [a truck driver] but to the great delight of both grandfathers) but just for me?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, my wife doesn't understand. We were at Branford last month the day after a big rain and there was mud everywhere. After the guided tour of the barns she expected to leave and couldn't believe I wanted to take 3 yr old Arthur to the very muddy rear area to see the BMT standard, the Ralph Kramden type GMC and the fishbowl. She's still trying to clean the mud off Arthur's shoes & clothes (3yr olds think mud is for jumping in!!!)
Jeff: Keep working on your lovely wife; she will fall into line. My wife used to roll her eyes when I mentioned the Nerw York subway, but when I ask her now who I am, she says "Sea Beach Man".
Actually she's pretty understanding about it, and with my other obsessions, playing the horses and motorcycles. Sometimes she has to put up with all three at once:Riding on the back of my Harley to Aqueduct, and watching the "A" Trains go by from the parking lot before going in!!However, as good as she is, I still go down to the basement periodically to make sure she hasn't thrown out my cane seat that I stole borrowed as a souvenir from a "Q" tpe car on the last day of the Myrtle in '69.
My wife is not only tolerant of my hobby but made a point of pushing me to get my better pieces out of the damp basement. If she sees some good Rubbermaid storage chests, she buys 'em and gives half to me for my stuff.
She doesn't mind that there is a BMT Standard roll sign under our bed.
Though, to be honest, I don't think it would break her heart to open a drawer and find the timetables gone. Or at least the duplicates.
And when we've been on vacation she's gone above and beyond what mere love demands.
When we were in Wales, we made the last run of the season of the Great Orme Tramway. This is a cable car line (actually a funicular) that goes from a corner of town up a big hill to a popular recreation spot.
She was wearing a summer dress and these were open cars. As we went higher, the wind blew colder and she was freezing. When we got to the midpoint (where you change for a second car to the top) I suggested (sincerely) that we turn back. "No way!" she said "who knows if you'll ever get to do this again." So we went to the tippy top and waited 20 minutes for a down car. The only other life forms up there were myriad sheep who had warm wool sweaters, but wouldn't share.
And she never even said "you owe me one."
You're a lucky man.
Just out of curiosity, which BMT standard roll sign do you have? Route or destination? I have a large-sized route sign from one of the later cars which had larger signs.
Both, inside the mechanism.
One day I'm going to have to do some careful rehabilitation work on it.
You're really lucky! I presume you have the later large version which was located away from the door pockets.
Yup. From Sarnelli's scrap yard. The watchman (who surprised me by even being around didn't mind. He was more looking for the scavengers who liberated the brass fittings.
Mechanisms freeze up over time and painted roll signs can begin to stick when in the same position for a long time. For some years I rolled the signs end to end to keep them limber, but haven't done this in so long I'll have to be super careful when I decide it's rehab time.
Yes, with painted roller curtains, you can't be too careful.
Actually, the route curtain in my IND sign box has held up very well. Living in a dry climate such as Colorado's helps as well. I alternate the combinations between A and D every few weeks or so. When I first acquired everything, I started cleaning that route curtain, not realizing those letters were painted on, and the HH info started to bleed! Yikes!! It wasn't a total loss, though. After the curtain dried off, it wasn't so bad.
I rode on the BMT standards on the Canarsie for two years and got used to seeing "14th St. L'c'l"; "Canarsie"; and "8th Av.-Manhattan" on their roll signs.
You have a very tolerant wife! My wife has also been very supportive of my hobby in our 37+ years of marriage. I join the hobby club and she winds up working registration or watching my table at a train show. She constantly surprises me with Christmas presents of things that I passed up on buying because I didn't think we could afford it. Over the years I have gotten items for my train layout or railroad books that I would have never bought on my own because of the expense. The remarkable thing is that she has to make the expense fit into our budget and does it successfully. I wouldn't trade her for the world.
I met my wife (of almsot 25 years) in our (BSM) car house, while I was pumping up a car for a pull-out. She was introduced by one of our Instructors, Rose Homberg (yes, that kind of rose). We dated, and the rest is history. Today we're still involved with the Museum, and she's Chair of the Membership committee. And, when we're out shopping, she's the one that points out the rail stuff to me.
I'm not strange - and the fastest way out of the "strange" (down BSM way we call them "Foamite Railfans") (can you guess why?) mode is to go to work in the industry - the paid or unpaid segments. You loose a lot of the "strange", since they tend to go overboard about the subject.
Jeff, I also take my three-year-old son on the subway, and occasionally LIRR, myself. I've no doubt gotten him hooked, because that's all he seems to want to do anymore. When he misbehaves, I threaten not to take him on any trains the next weekend. It usually shapes him up right then and there.
My wife is generally tolerant of this, but I fear one day Robbie will tell her about a "crazy man with a bottle" or "woman yelling about Jesus" on the train. That may curtail our adventures.
Since neither my wife nor her parents never learned to drive, they were more reliant on mass transit than a lot of people raised in Queeens; ergo, they are not subway snobs. My wife, however, just views it as a method of getting around and couldn't care less what model rolling stock runs on what line. If I get excited about something unusual I see (diesel passing thru Merrick; R-32s passing over New York Aquarium), she'll give me a "get a life" look. When we were dating, I showed her pictures I took in 1978 of LIRR trains passing thru grade crossings (An M-1 express thru New Hyde Park is just a blur). She married me anyway.
Yes, we are nuts, but there are redeeming features: I think my son learned to read letters by riding the subway. Now if he can just recognize H,I,K,O,P,T,U,V,W,X and Y.
I can add a few of my own:
On a 4-lane thoroughfare, I will drive in the left lane as if it were the express track. If I get all green lights, so much the better!
When approaching a green light, I will occasionally toot-toot, toot-toot, toot-toot the horn.
When we first moved to New Jersey and started going to New York regularly, I would imitate a subway train from a dead stop. Stomp my foot, bull and pinion gear sounds, the whole works. When I would ride my bike, I would trace imaginary I-beams as I rode along, like the ones I would see out the railfan window of an R-10 on the A, or an R-32 on a D or N. On my schoolbooks, after covering them, I would outline my name and subject in R-32-style sign boxes. To sum it up, I lived, ate, and slept subways.
Most of my colleagues know I am a big-time New York subway buff. Many people think I'm originally from New York, even though I'm not and have never lived there. Maybe it's because my speech still has a Jersey flavor to it, with a dash of midwestern twang mixed in. I have to constantly remind everyone that I am a native Hoosier from South Bend (and Notre Dame subway alumnus).
P. S. Fred, if you ever visit the Transit Museum, maybe you could have someone sign up the Triplex on display as a 4 and pose for a picture.
Steve B: I was at the transit museum last month and saw no triplex Sea Beach Car. If I had I would have had someone take my picture. Next time for sure.
No Triplex? That's interesting. I didn't see 6095 last fall, but that was probably because there had been a fantrip the previous Sunday (which I missed), and it may have still been at Coney Island.
I do know that every time I've seen it at the Museum, it's been signed as a 1.
BMT standard 2204 should have been there. Ordinarily, it's parked right next to the Triplex unit. After the standard comes my favorite set, R-1 100, R-4 484, and R-7A 1575. I posed for pictures on the step plates of 100 and 484 when you could still do so.
I was there about a month ago and the 3 triplex cars were there, they were the first 3 cars.
Are you sure it wasn't one unit? There isn't enough room for all three Triplex units unless some of the other rolling stock is moved out. The one I usually see there is 6095A-B-C. One Triplex unit consists of three articulating sections.
I think the Sarge said three cars, which is 1 unit.
And there is only 1 unit of Triplexes in the museum, except when they ran the Nostalgia Train with Triplexes, and the other 2 units would come and fetch their sister unit out of the museum. When they hook up and they are connected electrically and they share air and a common nervous system, do they talk to each other at all? Do the 2 units outside envy the unit in the relative peace and warmth of the Museum? Or does the Museum unit wish that it was outside, and not having kids play with its roll signs or jump up and down on its seats? Or as usual am I being ridiculous? Trains don't have spirits or souls, or do they?
Anyone familiar with an old time radio program called the Mysterious Traveller? They once had an episode called the Locomotive Ghost, which claimed that there was a train called the Judgement Special which sought out retribution on anyone who intentionally caused the wreckage of a train or death of a train employee. It would seek you out.
I think I'm going to watch my son's Thomas tapes, Paul. Each car has a separate personality!!
Since everyone knows by now that I am very strange, and some think I don't like women (totally false) let me state categorically that I do believe trains possess a spirit. There was something about a Triplex Sea Beach chugging into Times Square and 42nd Street that had a soul aand spirit of its own. Times Square was the terminal for that train in the late 40's and 50's, and it would burst into the station from somewhere between 49th Street ( where it did not stop) and 42nd Street. There was a sound to it that almost felt like it was talking to me. Boy did it sound great leaving Canal Street and heading over the Manhattan Bridge, and eventually to Coney Island. That train was telling me to get by the front car window and enjoy the ride. It was
a life experience for a y oung boy, and I will never forget it as long as I live. OK, now you know how strange I am, but as I said=I'm proud of it.
Hey Fred, I'm going to ask a strange question, which is nothing unusual for me. Would it have mattered if the Triplex was the Brighton Express? Would it have been the same experience? It's funny, I have lived on the Brighton Line all my unnnatural life, but I seem to be hung up more on the R9's. I loved the Triplexes middle round connecting platform between the articulated sections, and for sure I would almost always be up on the front glass. But the sounds of the car didn't go through me as much as the 9's. We had the Standards on the Local, but they touched me much less. Was it because they were slower, or they just seemed duller. The Triplex front was much more distinctive. In a sense, on the Brighton I had the best of both worlds, the Triplexes and later the R1/9's for a while. Are we fond of them because they were part of our experience of going to the city. They were familiar and almost like a family.
If the cars have a spirit or soul, when they go to their death and dismemberments, should we have some kind of formal service for the departed? I'm being a comedian, but they are mourned by many of us. I have kept alive part of the R9's by putting together a motorman's compartment made with parts from the old cars.
Did anybody ever hear of a Triplex unit being upstate in some farmer's field maybe in the 60's or 70's used as a shed. I have a memory of being not too far from the city, and seeing a Triplex unit sitting in a field. I was with a friend in a car, otherwise I would have boarded it and waited for it to make the run back to New York. But seriously, has anybody ever heard of one Triplexes ending up being sold to someone upstate.
Paul tchhhh-ssss: I have an even stranger question. What were the R9's and what years were they in service. It could be that they were in use after I left New York in 1954. I will look them up when I get a chance but let me know in the meantime if you can. The Brighton Express was the train I rode when I went to Ebbets Field to see my beloved Brooklyn Dodgers play. ( I live in So. Calif today and despise the LA Dodgers) I was too excited about the game I was going to see to even think about the train. With the Sea Beach, riding the train was the thing, not going to a game. When we got at 86th Street and were within distance of Coney Island, the hum in my mind seemed to stop and I started thinking more of Coney than the Sea Beach.
The R1-9's were the original IND cars.
When the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967, D trains were rerouted via the Brighton line and became Concourse-6th Ave.-Brighton Expresses, replacing (at the time) the Q/Broadway-Brighton Express. At the same time, the R-32s took over base service on the D, with a few trains of R-1/9s kept on hand for supplemental service. That's how those lovable IND veterans ended up plying the rails on the Brighton during the late 60s and early 70s.
Those cars were also seen on the QJ and occasionally the QB.
9/28/99
Paul,
I don't know if you've read my post a week ago about that D-type (B section) upstate near Kingston,NY. It was by Route 28 for years and was moved upstate again near Albany and last heard was on an abandoned camp grounds last used as a latrine. I heard rumors that when that center unit went upstate that her cab counterparts were somewhere around but nobody knew exactly where. Maybe that's what you're talking about.
Not to be outdone were the bodies of the ex-2nd and 9th Ave. "EL" cars trucked upstate to Holmes,NY to become "Camp Sanita",a getaway for NYC Sanitation Dept. employees and their families. The Car bodies lasted there until 1976 when a land developer wanted to sell them to the TA for BIG BUCKS and when didn't get his price burned them for spite. A color picture of this appears in my 1997 New York City Subways Calendar.
Bill Newkirk
No Bill, I didn't see that post on the upstate sightings of the Triplex B section. I ran into it maybe 30 years ago. I kind of remember that there was a full Triplex unit. But putting that aside, I am happy to hear that this wasn't my imagination. I seem to remember seeing it near the house of a railroad buff who sold stuff from his home. It just seemed to be out in a field. I'm going to try to find your post.
While I have you here, Jeff, Steve, and I have been trying to recollect how the conductor worked his position in the Standards. Once he closed his set of doors, I suggested that he was supposed to cross his fingers and hope no one was dragged. Steve remembered the conductor going on the station platform while loading and unloading. Jeff seemed to prefer the Standard's conductor position because the conductor was able to travel around in the car and not have to get up and out like on the Triplexes. What's your memory of all this?
Again thanks especially for the information about the upstate Triplex. It relieved my mind. Paul
If I remember correctly the Conductor was in the next to last car, and ran toi stick his head out from the nearest window. I always thought the standards were smileing all the time after the got their running lights. Does anyone out there remember on the standards, the one seat on the B side, that was in the unused motormens booth? how many of used try to get ito it and pretend you were the motorman? I know I did
I remember those seats in the unused motorman's compartment very well. They existed at the ends of the cars that were permanently coupled. I remember them as being a double seat however, and a good place to sit with your best girl because it gave you some privacy.
I only remember one single seat in the Standards, it was right alongside the storm door, but it faced the interior of the car, and was visible to everyone in the car as well.
If you were to lift up this wicker single seat cushion there was a hole under it as if there might have been a plan to make it a toilet at some point in the design stage. I don't see how that could have worked though, for the seat was visible to all.
Actually it was meant to be used as a toilet. As for privacy, if you were in the front car, you could knock on the motorman's door and he had a large wooden folding screen, that you could put around the seat for privacy. Or if you were into exhibiting yourself, you could just take care of business right in front of everyone. People were a lot less uptight then.
Seriously though, I sat on that front seat a lot and watched out the front. You remember that the motorman's door had a very narrow horizontal pane of glass that you allowed you to see inside.
Heypaul: I wish I had known of that. Do you think they would allow a fresh-faced little kid to sit there? Somehow I doubt it.
I guess that is why every time I knocked on a motorman's door, he would open it a few inches and hand me a roll of toilet paper. My mom was always puzzled that when I came home from a train ride I had another roll of TP.
Seriously, I always preferred to stand to look out the storm door window. I found it more interesting than watching the motorman's hands on the controls.
I also remember the little window on the Motormans Door. I also remember sometimes when it was hot, the Motorman had a latch and left the door open about 6 inches, and you could look in. If I remember correctly the D Triplex had the little window to the cab.
I also remember that single seat next to the storm door. I sat in one of those once on the way back to Manhattan on the Canarsie at about this time in 1967. It was one of the very few times I wasn't in the first car of a Manhattan-bound train. It was very convenient for us to board the first car at Lorimer St. because we always entered that station by the western end. I think the reason we moved down the platform on the first few Saturdays was because we saw the "Trains stop at centre of platform" sign and moved to it.
As for comfort facilities, my father wondered out loud once if the motorman's cab was actually a john. It was during one of our May 1967 excursions to the Museum of Natural History, and as our AA train whined along its merry way, I replied I didn't think so.
I should also point out that my observation of the conductor on the BMT standards was based on a photo in Subway Cars of the BMT. For the life of me, I don't recall ever seeing the conductor at one of the button consoles. It may be that we never sat in the second or fifth cars of the train; six-car trains of standards was the norm on the Canarsie.
I remember trying to sit sideways on the single seat, facing the motorman's cab, and then turn my head another 90 degrees to the left to look out the "railfan" window. I got a devil of a stiff neck in this position on two occasions and vowed that in the future any looking out the "railfan" window would be from the standing position.
yeh that too
Oh yes, my PATH experience relived.
I rode the Standards for many years. The conductor was normally in the middle car of a three car train or the fifth car of a six car train. He would open all the doors at once. He would close the doors to the rear of the train first, next he would close the doors to the front of the train. It was always my impression he would close his set of doors after he insured that noone was stuck in any of the other closed doors. I don't know anything about running to look out a window after all doors were closed. I watched a lot of conductors at work in the old days and never saw this happen. If there was any kind of a crowd on the train, he would have to ask a seated passenger to move to do this.
Thanks Karl, I forgot about that, closing the real cars first. Been a long time from the Brighton Local
Karl. I'm trying to remember this part myself.
Do you mean to say that the conductor kept his doors open while the train was leaving the station, or he just checked for stuck passengers after he closed up both ends? As I am writing this, I can't remember him looking out of open doors as the train was moving. Paul
No doors were kept open, no way. The rear doors were closed after it appeared that no one else was getting on or off. The same procedure was used before the doors to the front were closed. After one last look to the rear and then to the front, he would then close his set of doors and take his key out. The train would then leave the station. I never ever saw a train move with any doors open. Occasionally I saw him reopen doors, and close them again, but this naturally was while the train was still standing in the station. One button opened all the doors on the platform side. It took three different buttons to close the same doors.
I always noticed that the conductor removed his key after all doors were closed, even if the platform was on the same side at the next stop. I guess this was SOP.
There were two horizontal rows of buttons on each button console. The top row consisted of three buttons for opening the doors and was covered by a brass canopy. The middle button opened all side doors; the two adjacent buttons opened the storm doors at each corresponding end. That was a unique feature which only the BMT standards had: powered storm doors.
The bottom row had five buttons for closing the doors. From left to right, they were marked: close end (storm) door; close side end door; close center side door; close side end door; close end (storm) door. They also had arrows indicating the appropriate side of the car. After the standards were retrofitted with MUDC, the close side end door buttons essentially became zone controls; i. e., the one to the left of the middle button closed the rear section doors and the one to the right closed the front section. The close center side door button closed only that set of doors by it.
My impression was the conductor didn't wait very long to close his set of doors. Every time I rode in the first car of a train of standards, we would get moving a couple of seconds after the doors closed.
Under that button console on some of the Standards was a lever that appeared to me to be a method of applying hand brakes to the car. I only noticed it on some of the Standards and never figured out a pattern as to which cars had the lever or why others didn't. The lever I am referring to can be seen in one of the pictures on page 46 of Greller's "Subway Cars Of The BMT".
Funny, I just thought the lever was to open the doors.
Funny, I just thought the lever was to open the doors. ( during malfunction of the normal procedure).
There's nothing strange about any of that. You love the subway as much as the rest of us. I felt the same way pressing my nose against the railfan window of an A train of R-10s as it roared along CPW, or one of the few prewar D trains with no headlights that I was lucky to ride along that same route.
BTW, how fast did those Triplex trains go down 4th Ave? I've heard from many people who have ridden them that they could really move, although they didn't accelerate very rapidly.
Steve 8AVEXP: You right, they did not accelerate very rapidly but once they got a head of steam they really moved. I recall many trips in Brooklyn when we would breeze by 45th and 53rd Streets at such a speed that I was hard pressed to see a sign. The Triplexes were very powerful and I have to believe they were very heavy trains. They seemed to woosh through those tunnels with almost an anger, but, of course, to me they were my friends.
Believe it or not the top speed of thge Triplex was 42 mph
This was certainly achieved back on Oct. 18, 1998 between 36th Street and Pacific Street, with #6095C in the lead. What a train! The folks crowded about the front window (I was up by the first door, under a little white lite bulb) were in seventh heaven the whole way back from CI.
9/28/99
Maybe trains do have souls. Just look at the front of the car. The AB types had a passive almost peaceful face on it. The D-types on the other hand with that overhang or "brow" had a look of anger. Now the R-15,16 & 17's with the porthole window.... CYCLOPS?
Bill Newkirk
Yeah Bill, I would definitely agree about the AB's appearance. They were bland, peaceful, and laid back. I know they were used on the West End, and probably ran wide open between Pacific and 36th. In the 50's I remember that stretch as being scary. But my regular experience with them was as Brighton Locals, and on the Chambers Street train which I seem to recall having a big white circle on the front during a couple of summers that I worked on Wall Street.
Fred also posted yesterday recalling the Triplexes as having an angry appearance due in part to its brow. The R9's and Triplexes did seem to have a more focused appearance. It was kind of poetic the way Fred described the Triplexes as being kind of angry as the barrelled down the road, but that he felt safe because they were his friends.
The white dots on the standards were put on so people could know they were the Franklin Shuttle, since it ran during the daylight outside and did not use marker lights. as stated before it ran on Summer Sundays, from Franklin along the Brighton Line, then Sea Beach express tracks to Chambers via the Nassau Loop. It stoped sometime around 1955. Since everyone else has a handle I will use the above. Remember the Brighton for many years was Number 1
Bill: That's great, they did have that brow and look, but to me it was a look of determination, not anger. I really thought they were good looking trains, and I remember that the West End had mostly B types in those days as well as the Brighton Local. The Brighton Express was also a D type. I always remarked to my parents how good those trains looked and how ugly the 4th Ave local, Brigton Local and the West End looked. I hated riding those trains and made a scene every time I had to ride them. When we got to 42nd Street, rather than have a riot on his hands my dad always gave in and we rode the Sea Beach to where ever we were going. As everybody knows by know it's "my" train and I proudly go by the title "Sea Beach Man" given to me by Dave and RedbirdR33.
Fred, did you ever as a kid stand in the passageway of the triplex units and pretend you were the conductor. I remember I did. I hope that I am not the only weird one out there that did
Bob: No, I was a creature of habit. I always made a beeline for the front car and got to the front window by hook or crook. I will tell you this. If I had stayed in New York and not moved west I'm convinced I would have become a motorman driving the Sea Beach. I'm convinced of it.
Fred Sazme thing here. Either a conductor or motorman on the BMT if I stayed. Saying I got out of the service 63, signed up then. I could be retired, instead of having to work anouther 8-10 years on cr*p jobs in the west Bob Mets choke again, go Yanks
Bob #1 Brighton Express: We are blood brothers just like Dave8AVEXP and me. You are enamored with the Brighton Express and its old #1 designation. I'm enthralled with the Sea Beach and its #4. The fact that you would have been a motorman or a conductor really gets me on a roll. But when you say Yankees I have to pull back a little. I hate those guys but the Mets are choking for all they're worth. Second year in succession they've become a cropper. I'm believing that Valentine might have to go. Two more things. You said you got out of the service in 1963. That was the happiest year in my life, and 32 years ago today I met my wife. I'm afraid I'm an incurable romantic.
I liked the Brighton because it is fast and scenic. In fact when I am in NYC to visit famly who still lives in Coney Island. I usually take the Brighton one way, the the West End the other way. and get to Nathans. Next week I will be in LA for a couple of days if all goes well and will check out the Red Line Extension to Hollyweird if I have time. As to my family in Coney Island, I think it is funny they live in the apt houses that sit right on top of the old Coney Island Bus/Trolley Barn on W 5th by Surf Ave. I Love the view my aunt had from her balcony.22 floors up facing North to the CI Yards and East
So you didn't care for the BMT standards, either, huh? Join the club. In my case, I didn't have much choice on the Canarsie until the R-7/9s moved over there.
And, yes, the Triplexes were by far and away the heaviest subway cars ever to polish the rails in New York. Those behemoths weighed in at 105-108 tons. Not that the BMT standards were lightweights - they tipped the scales at 47-49 tons apiece. One 137-foot Triplex was the servic eequivalent of two 67-foot standards, so if you do the math, one Triplex still outweighed two standards.
Bob: I was only a kid but they sure seemed very fast to me. Interesting, though. I wonder if I'd feel the same way riding one of those Triplexes today. Thanks!
It has been said that the ghost of R-6-3 #986 still haunts the tunnel west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn - late at night you can hear its whistle and the sound of its AMUE air brakes. :o)
Wayne
Not to mention its air compressors and bull and pinion gears, I'll bet.
Interesting concept, Paul.
What I do know for a fact is that many steam locomotive engineers have said that their engines seemed to possess a 'soul' or 'spirit'. I think alot of that lore is based on the fact that steam under pressure produces different effects and 'nuiances', along with the fact that steam equipment came in various sizes and configurations.
I'm not sure that these observations would apply to electric traction, however.
Anyone else know what I'm talking about here?
Doug aka BMTman
Ride a Q of Slant-40s on the Brighton, then ride that other train they have on the D.
One has a soul, one doesn't.
Agreed. I'm beginning to think of 68's and 68A's as shells, which is what the railroad buffs called the Amfleet coaches.
The slants have had a hard life. Their design was heralded as being a modern look for us, but then that same design I think actually caused a death or two of people going between the cars and having very little support ( before they put in the extra railing) Then before they were rebuilt, they were one sorry looking graffitti bearing car. After rebuilding, they shed the scars of their younger years, and are now truly a refreshing sight when compared to the shells. Better than a 32 or 38, that's a matter of taste. The slant's front window gains it extra points. More soulful than a 9, or a Triplex, or a standard, or a low V--- partly depends on how old you are and what affected you in your early riding days.
As long as I am ranting and raving, having never really spent much time on the R33 red birds, what are people's memories and feelings toward that car?
The beloved Redbirds are an endangered species in more ways than one. To begin with, they have railfan windows, which newer equipment doesn't seem to have anymore. They also retained their bulkhead route AND destination roll signs, something the R-32s and R-38s should have kept. The theme of my New York visits hasn't been Ride the Redbirds for nothing.
9/28/99
If those D-Types are talking in the museum they can be saying only one thing....PLEASE PAINT ME !!
Bill Newkirk
I didn't mean to say there were 9 units. Weren't they each called separate cars even if they were on the same truck? I mean, people didn't say they were walking to the next articulated section to get a seat.
Round the time I grew up along the Brighton Sarge, that's exactly how people referred to the triplexes. You would make plans to meet people in the middle articulated section of the first unit. At James Madison High School, we were taught to very careful about our articulation, otherwise we end up in Speech class.
A quickie Sarge. When Costello was asked "Why don't you grow up?" what was his answer?
I should know, Paul, but I'm drawing a blank. But how 'bout these?A:Why didn't you go to the 5th grade?
C:What, & pass my farter up?A:You put the pail under the cow's utter.
C:The cow's utter what?A:He is a good mudder
C:How can he be a mudder?
A:'Cause he eats his fodder!!A:Lets say your in a baseball park, what teams are playing
C:I don't know.
A:Then what are you doin in the baseball park?A:I'll get a turkey sandwich and a cup of coffee, and you, you don't want anything!!
A;Ever go to school stupid?
C: Yes, and I came out the same way.
Then, I suppose they would lead into their "who's on first, what's on second" routine.
You had to be careful about articulation during band rehearsal as well.
Paull, when did you go to Madison? Please contact me at Bobnjudy@juno.com-Bob
Hey Bob, from your last posting it seems you're interested in finding old classmates. There is a great site for that. Go to www.classmates.com. When you get there first register (name & password) go to the HS you graduated from (in your case Madison). When you get to the school DO NOT pay the $25, just click on the link "message board" on the left and it will take you to a forum/message board like this one for your alma mater. You'd be surprised how many of your alumni are on it!!! I found a 2nd cousin a graduated with in H.S. Our immediate families lost contact with each other over 25 yrs ago and she's living out of state. Even if you dont see anyone you know a lot of the threads recall old hangouts and teacher's names from way back. Let me know how it worked out.
See Jeff, you're one of us. Good show.
>>>When NYPD merged with Transit they sent us to transit training at the train yard by the Van
Wyck & Union Tnpk and I knew almost as much as the instructor! <<<
When that happens I've learned to clam up. They HATE it when you know as much as they do. Often, anyway...
Kevin: Shoot for some promotions and get into a position to make some positive changes. Until then, play it cool. I know the kind of people you're dealing with. In education, they're called administrators or pencil pushers or, when we get good and mad, warts.
Hey guys: Its's official; we're all little crazy and proud of it.
Every time I see the subject heading : We're Strange & Proud of It , I flash back to a 3 Stooges episode. The three of them are in a submarine that's filling with water ( some hopeless situation like that ) and I think Larry says : " We're trapped like rats"
Moe slaps him in the face and says: "Speak for yourself rodent"
Or perhaps the comedian Steven Wright who asks the question : " If you didn't know me, would you think I was a stranger?"
To keep this on the subject of transit, a little while ago I saw an R 40 slant running on the Q.
At least the slants are still on the Q. Here's a big question: are they done with the trackwork on the Brighton line? Or is the Q still running local to Brighton Beach?
Here's another R-1/9 sound for you: tdddk-ksssss. That's the door locks releasing and air escaping. The R-10s made that sound, too.
Ok Paul, you're not a stooge, and less strange than I am. You have to admit, however, there are a lot of people out there who cannot fathom how grownups like us can be so intense and emotional about a subway system. But, then again, who cares?
We love the sounds, the looks, the smells, and everything . I'm crazy about anything mass transit, subways, trolleys, busses, etc. Who else would get a kick seeing a roll sign winding by and watching all the destinations pass by? The new flip dot signs don't have the same
effect on me. I frequently go into Philadelphia and ride a bus, a trolley, and finally the M4 new "el". I pretend I'm driving by moving my feet on the floor like I'm accelerating or braking (nobody sees me do this.) Who cares what anybody thinks? I love it and always will.
Chuck Greene
There you go Chuck. Spoken like a real subway nut.
Glad you side with me, Fred. I forgot to add I really like the whine
that a SEPTA Neoplan bus makes in first gear. It only lasts a few seconds, then there is abrubt shift to second gear. I also have a real neat RED Arrow bus roll sign that I put on the floor and roll from end to end. Like how many times does it say "69th ST. TERMINAL"?
Chuck Greene
No Fred you're wrong on three counts. I am a Stooge, or at least have part of their logic and zaniness imprinted in my head. And secondly, I think I am stranger than most people who post here. And thirdly, I am interested in why the Mack Buses and the sounds and smells and feel of the R9's still are so special to me.
Well Paul, you just made a friend. I get the same feeling you do, and I look at all the pictures I printed up from this website. I look at them every day, but especially of my Sea Beach.
[And thirdly, I am interested in why the Mack Buses and the sounds and smells and feel of the R9's still are so special to me.]
Hey Paul, those Mack Buses had a bunch of different sounds, the same way the R1-9's had. I lived (and still do) in East Meadow which was served by the Hempstead Bus Company. They were the only pre MSBA L.I. bus company that used Macks instead of GMC's as their pre-fishbowl buses and I loved all the different grunts, groans, and hisses that they made. The GMC's just had a loud rising gear sound.
By the way, the poster who said he can tell what train was arriving while in the mezzanine was so true!! You can always tell an R1-9 from any other car including the other pre-wars such as the BMT Standard or the Low V.
No, I didn't mean to say that I just liked the Mack Bus based on appearance. I used to watch them come to a stop from my father's store in Sheepshead Bay, and I always got a bang watching them bouncing on their air bellows, I think, sort of taking their time coming to equilibrium. Then they always seem to shoot out a little burst of air from under the driver, which I think had to do with the air bellows. Then riding them, the driver always seemed dwarfed by the steering wheel and the way the driver's position was arranged. If you want a laugh,take a look over on the other side of the fence at Bus Talk. There are a load of Memories of Mack Bus postings, but they're talking about GM's. What a let down!!!!
we started with Macks, and it just went on to GMCs
That was me. I can't comment on the Lo-Vs, since I've never ridden on them. What set the BMT standards apart was the fact that they would give off a "tchhhhhh" sound just as a train was coming to a full stop. Their air compressors and bull and pinion gear sounds were identical to the R-1/9s.
So did the old Hi/Lo Volts make that noise. I still can hear them
For me the old Mack buses just looked more solid and businesslike than the froglike appearance of the GMs. Even as a kid I was happier to get a Mack bus.
Of course the fishbowls came to Brooklyn when I was 7 or so, so I didn't get to enjoy the Macks, which dominated the B64 Bay Ridge-Coney Island line, for long.
Everybody from family to friends to co-workers think that I am a 100% natural, unconcentrated nut because of my love for subways, buses and commuter rail. They really think it is crazy when for example, we could be walking in the mezzanine of a subway station (47-50 St. Rockefeller Center) and when I here a train roll into the station, I would be able to tell who ever I am with what train is it, what type of car it is, and which direction it is travelling without so much as looking at the train.
They really thought I lost it when I would take trips all over the country to ride and photograph transit systems in other cities.
But eventually, they got used to me, especially after I have taken a couple of friends to the meetings at the Electronic Railroaders Association (ERA) and a few fan trips. When they saw that I was not the only one with this obsession, the amount of people and money mixed up with this hobby. They just say that there are a lot of nuts in the world today.
That's okay with me. Everybody have their vices. Some people drink, some people gamble. I, on the other hand, am obsessed with transportation. Not harmful to mine or anyone else's health. Yea, I'm proud of it.
It used to be easier to identify trains by sound in the past. I could always tell from the mezzanine when a southbound A train was pulling into 42nd St. The R-10s were a dead giveaway because their SMEE brakes didn't hiss the way the AMUE brakes did on the R-1/9s. Plus there were a couple of expansion joints on the express track which caused a loud klunk as a train passed over them. The brakes on the R-32s gave off a high-pitched squeal in those days as they came to a stop, which on the 8th Ave. line usually meant it was an AA train.
Generally, the R-1/9s lumbered, snarled, and hissed their way into a station, while the R-32s glided in effortlessly. The R-10s neither lumbered nor glided. They made their presence known in an emphatic manner.
I am a station agent and I too have gotten such comments. but I dont care! I have met tons of others who liked the material found on subtalk and nycsubway.org
Attaboy Subway Buff, you ought to know. The NYC Subway is the best of its kind in the world, and don't believe any other subway system has the rabid fans ours does. By the way, we now have a woman besides Peggy on the line. I like that. Let's see of we can get a few more. I met a few this summer that loved the subway.
Hello Folks, I dont know how true this is but a friend of mine said he saw a 6 car train that said MTA LIRR on it. This train was spotted at 53rd and lex going to Jamaica yard. Can any one confirm this? Are these cars compatible for subway use????
NOPE! It didn't happen. What they likely saw was an R-46 with the LIRR sign displayed.
A friend dropped me email just a few minutes ago to tell me that R36's 9349 and 9410 were being stripped for parts. As you may recall, 9349 suffered some fire damage during the course of the year as well as 9410 suffering some anticlimber damage. What would be a reason for not putting those cars back into service?
-Stef
Money cash moolah dinero ducats credit $$$$$$$$$$$
Since there are replacement cars on the way, how do you justify a major expenditure?
How tough is it to fix an anticlimber??? I can see a fire, but a little ding like that? When the crash on the Willy B happened a few years ago, all EIGHT R40Ms on the "J" train (especially the first one!) had anticlimber damage. Maybe they can make a work motor out of it or mate it up with #8885 to make a Gel Applicator Team.
Wayne
Service increases perhaps? Not every redbird is going to be phased out right away. The TA will need the extra cars for any increases they may have in service, or if the R142s are basketcases at best. Old cars suffering from structural deficiencies (rust!) are on the way out.
Wayne: If you still have 8986 and 87 marked for work service in your book, change it. They are no longer operating the refuse collector. 8734 and 35 also operated the refuse collector briefly.
OK, done.
Has anyone out there seen #8636-8637 (from Pelham's R29 fleet?)
Wayne
9/21/99
That would be something. I believe all Flushing R-33/36's are all accounted for never having one unit scrapped. Can you say that about any other class cars ?
Bill Newkirk
Yes. R26/28/29s haven't been prematurely scrapped. That class of cars is still intact. That's a pretty good record, as not too many fleets can hold that distinction for being intact after 40 years of service.
9/21/99
Wasn't a car lost in a wreck on the Dyre Avenue years back? Or was that an R-33?
Bill Newkirk
Yeah. That was R22 #7602, lost about 1979.
9/21/99
Thanks for clearing that up/ Anyway how about those "Gel cars"? Why are they unfit for revenue passenger service? Are all accounted for?
Sorry for the questions , just curious!
Bill Newkirk
The IRT gel car is nothing more than an accident, actually.
R33 8885 lost her mate, 8884 in an unforuntate mishap at the junction between the Flatbush Av and New Lots Av lines of the 2/3/4/5 and lines(outside of Franklin Av), in July of 1997.
8885 was left without a companion, as it's mate was scrapped on the spot due to a bent frame.
Why can't you put it in work service, since it isn't going to be used anywhere else?
A gel car's purpose to apply a gel to the rails to prevent slippage on rails in wet weather. The gel car comes to use in places like the Dyre Av line, in which it's right of way is surrounded by trees. The Brighton Line is also surrounded by many trees.
There are 2 gel cars: R30 8429 and R33 8885. I haven't seen the R30 gel car, but I have seen the R33 on numerous occasions.
If you think some of the stations are Scary Looking, you should look at the under-side of the Gowanus Canal Viaduct. I may never ride the F train again. Looks like the thing is scheduled to fall down yesterday.
The problem there is only cosmetic! The concrete is crumbling leaving the bare steel underneath. Queens Blvd 7 had the same problem. On the MTA web site's capital programs listing is a project to repair this problem.
I think scary in walking the tunnels with all the steel dust and little or no clearance when trains pass. Also, scary is walking an elevated structure with rotten slatting boards which spring upward when I walk on them.
Are there any stations that are suspected of being haunted becvause i was thinking of doing some photography around them
I've heard of haunted houses, boats and even trains, but I'm not sure I've ever heard of a haunted station.
If you were putting together a creepy story with pictures and used your imagination, you could look for locales such as City Hall BMT lower level (the spirit of Alfred Beach with whooshing sounds from the long-departed penumatic subway). Didn't Ghostbusters II use a recreation of that line in an excellent vignette?
You could photograph (if you could get permission) the unused lower level of Coney Island, which might still have its original signs.
The Matts Mansion overlooking the Brighton at Albemarle (long gone) had a rep for being haunted but that wasn't a station.
Parts of the PATH tunnels are kind of gothic and creepy. It would be great to photograph the remain of old Hudson Terminal.
Any disused facility that once hosted people by the thousands has an inherent creepiness to it. This was used effectively in a movie "Carnival of Souls" which featured an abandoned amusement pavillion.
Prospect Park is a natural with the dreaded Malbone Street tunnel. "Workers rehabilitating the Franklin Shuttle keep complaining of hearing an approaching train. Their supervisors remind them about drinking on the job. 'Something ain't right', says Louie, as he tears years of ivy branches from an old wall. He's certain he can hear the sounds of a subway train coming down the hill, but it must be his imagination ... the tracks are all torn up. Besides it doesn't sound like any subway train he's ever heard. The motors have an unfamiliar hollow sound, and if Louie were decades older he might recognize the hissing sound as lap brakes. Must be some equipment one of the other guys is using. A huge beetle scurries away as he pulls the last of the ivy from the wall. He can barely make out painted words last seen by his great-grandfather's generation: 'What was this?' he mutters, 'some kind of old wholesale store?' Almost distracted by the increasing volume of train-like noise he picks out the words 'Consumer's Park Brewery'."
But I've never heard an actual claim of haunting of a subway station.
[You could photograph (if you could get permission) the unused lower level of Coney Island, which might still have its original signs.]
I never knew there was such a thing! Do you mean Stillwell Avenue?
Yes, Stillwell Avenue. A whole separate bank of turnstiles and entrances to each of the platforms. IIRC, it was approached from locked gates at the west end of the station, and only opened for extreme situations, like a sudden thunderstorm on a sunny Sunday.
I saw it open maybe two-three times in years of going through Coney Island station. Also IIRC, it used to be vaguely visible from the street on the Stillwell Avenue side.
>>>>You could photograph (if you could get permission) the unused lower level of Coney Island, which might still have its original signs. <<<
Huh? I didn't know Coney had a lower level.
Huh? I didn't know Coney had a lower level.
Yup. See my reply to Peter Rosa.
I can see this is a job for Forgotten-NY Man!! (Do you leap into a phone booth can jump out with a cape and camera? :-) )
>>>>I can see this is a job for Forgotten-NY Man!! (Do you leap into a phone booth can jump out with a cape and camera? :-) ) <<
Well, they wouldn't like it at that well-known direct mail company I work for if I did that. As it is they'd rather we not waste...er, spend too much time online.
Did you see the movie Mystery Men this summer? It's about a bunch of superheroes with powers no one can use, like the Blue Rajah, Master of Cutlery, or the Invisible Boy, who can only turn invisible when nobody's looking. Anyway, if they ever do a sequel (unlikely) another one could be "The Swiper", who has a souped-up MetroCard that lets you through on the first swipe, every time. After all, too many Mystery Men have had problems getting uptown to fight crime since they can't get through the turnstiles, as train after train goes by.
Anyway if that unused platform at Stillwell is accessible, I'll see if I can visit it. I don't think it's mentioned in the nycsubway.org station by station guide, and Joe Brennan doesn't mention it on his list, either.
You know how, when you enter Coney Island station from the south, the mezzanine ramps up? The lower mezzanine is below that.
I haven't seen this since (probably) 1970 give or take, when you could still peer in through gates on the Stillwell Avenue side. Even then, you might not have been able to figure out what you were looking at, being darkened and all.
I'm sure the space and ramps are still there at the least. I bet they use it for storage or some such now.
What';s below the ramps? Simple answer: The area is a trash room- the station's garbage is stored there! Access is via doors. It is mentioned in the station by station. Kevin: there are also two freight elevators, no longer used, near the F and N ramps--they went down to the trash room..
Now the extra turnstiles: there are more turnstiles in plain sight. They are used for summer beach traffic as is the old style booth known to transit employees as "The Rotunda". The sudden rainstorm? police are at the station and transit employees and police try to keep order but many people do get in without paying and staffing is insufficient to stop all of them!
The station has two current entrances: the main entrance through the street level structure (from Stilwell and Surf Avenue) and through the bus lanes. To get to the bus lanes go towards the up ramps and go down- there is another booth and the bus lanes (Mermaid Ave exit)
I trust this answers the questions. During the summer of 1998 I worked at this station covering the gates and really got to explore the station complex.
If anyone is interested in a tour of Stillwell, e-mail me off-site and a tour will be arranged.
Wouldn't this make a good field?
9/21/99
Paul,are you talking about the Nortons Point bus terminal?
Bill Newkirk
< Paul,are you talking about the Nortons Point bus terminal? >
No, Bill. I'm talking about another entire south-facing level of Stillwell Avenue which is now apparently used as a trash room.
9/21/99
Paul,
When descending the current ramps there are boarded up entrance ways that defy explanations. Does these ramps lead to the fare controls you're talking about and where would the street entrance be?
The entrance ways are on the (N),(D) and (F) ramps. Are turnstiles still there?
Bill Newkirk
When descending the current ramps there are boarded up entrance ways that defy explanations. Does these ramps lead to the fare controls you're talking about and where would the street entrance be?
Yes, they did. I recall one street entrance faced on Stillwell Avenue, at street level. I believe you could also enter at the western end of the south facing entrance, but I'm fuzzy on that.
I can recall this in use at least as late as 1957-58 or so. But its use was rare. I can only recall revenue use maybe two or three times in my entire memory. I also seem to recall I was able to access the area and look around at least once while it was out of use.
The entrance ways are on the (N),(D) and (F) ramps. Are turnstiles still there?
I recall that you couldn't access one of the lines from the lower level. I have no idea at all what is still down there. It's a pretty safe guess no turnstiles. I wonder if the signs are still there--Brighton, Sea Beach, Culver.
9/21/99
Thanks for clearing that up. When I was a youngster and traveling with my family to Coney Island for a day long outing of beating the heat,we descended the ramps from the Brighton Line and I saw that concrete stairway entrance. Well I was 8 years old and figured that was for another subway line downstairs! Oh,the mysteries of Stillwell Terminal.
Bill Newkirk
I had two such dreams in the last few days.
In my first dream, I was at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, where A trains were being turned due to - surprise, surprise - flooding. An A train pulled in, and I noticed the cars were R-32s. Two, four, six, eight. Nothing unusual except the side destination signs were backlit. Then the last two cars appeared. No, they weren't R-32s, nor R-38s. They were slant R-40s! Now comes the weird part. Wayne, are you sitting down? THE SLANTS HAD FULL-WIDTH CABS!!!!! Oooohhhhhh noooooooo!!! Say it ain't so!!!! The unthinkable had happened.
In my second dream, I was at 8th Ave. on the Canarsie. Instead of there being two tracks, there were three, and the platform seemed to go on and on forever. A train of BMT standards on the center track was waiting to depart, and the doors were open on both sides. I stepped aboard, then got off onto the other platform. Suddenly the train doors closed, and the train pulled away. Then another train of BMT standards pulled in and kept going and going all the way to the end of the station. It made the same sounds as the standards always had, even the "tchhhhhhh" sound just as it came to a stop. In reality, I remember missing a train or two out of 8th Ave. just as I got to the platform - mainly because I had spent 10-15 minutes waiting for an A train at 42nd St.
I periodically have a dream where the LIRR has a secret fleet of MP-54s that they run only when I'm not in town.
I once had a dream that I was riding the Jamaica Avenue line.....but it was underground, not elevated. What is it that Freud said about dreams of trains through tunnels ...
See, that's because you're an "A" train fan. I never have wierd dreams about the "N" because my Sea Beach gives me only pleasant dreams----as well as pleasant memories. Now if they will only clean up that line, make it an express, and reburbish those mini-tunnels (not get rid of them for overpasses), and refurbish the area entering Stillwell Avenue, then I'll be happy. If I was only the President of the US---what I would do? Ooops I'm now dreaming myself.
I had a HIDEOUS subway-related nightmare the other night. In this nightmare, subway service over the Manhattan Bridge had to be significantly reduced for a repair job that was to last several months. What was horrifying is that the partial shutdown occurred in 1990 or thereabouts but stretched on and on. The last thing about the nightmare I remember, before my alarm went off, was that the work wouldn't be done until 2002 or even later, and some people were saying that the bridge was so far gone it might never see full service again.
Whew! I'm so glad that was only a dream.
Are you sure you didn't just take a reality pill?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Pete: I read you loud and clear, but unfortunately the TA doesn't.
Gee, for a moment there I thought you'd dreamed the bridge had collapsed. That's not too far away, I'm afraid.
Since this is a family oriented site I can't go into serious details about my subway fantasy anymore than saying it involves an R-38 and Jennifer Lopez! ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Don't worry, the A, C, F, M, N, and R lines will come to the rescue.
I wonder if the number was #4200 or #4420 or #4427 or #4428 (No, those two would be "L" trains), or #4259...they'd have to do something about those bonnets in disarray for sure! Maybe just inside the full-width cab they'd put another storm door with the same long window. Of couse, they'd need most of a Daily News to cover it. Since they were at the rear of the train, maybe the reverse railfan window would be available. I was on an R44 "A" (full-width cab there) from Chambers Street-H&M to West 4th in the last car, and had no problem seeing out the back, for the window wasn't covered.
I had a subway dream recently - I was all alone on a BMT Standard somewhere - no motorman, no conductor, no passengers, but the doors opened and closed right on cue. The fans went off when the doors opened and back on when they closed. We were out of doors but I didn't see names on the stations, which looked kind of like the Jamaica El or Fulton El (eastern end) ones. Plus it was raining cats and dogs.
Wayne
Those slant R-40s in my dream wound up being at the front end of the train. The worst part was the cab door was a nice, shiny, stainless steel door with no windows.
No car numbers. The only time a car number appeared in any dream was R-1 #282. Don't ask me why.
BMT standards rarely appear in my subway dreams. Usually, it's R-1/9s or R-10s. Imagine that!
9/21/99
Okay Steve,if R-1 #282 is in your dream then play the number!
I had a dream a month ago just a nutty as yours. I dreamt I was on the Prospect Park station platform (northbound)watching a southbound R-46 leave. Then a consist of R-38's with a AB on the point enters. The funny thing is the AB is in stainless steel. I ran to catch that car and enter. I didn't sit down because there was no seat available but stood by the door panels and marveled at the drop ceiling (deck roof car) an the A/C vents,(no fans). I gotta stay away from that WENDY'S chili!,talk about serious side affects,(or sound effects?)
BILL NOOKURK
Why don't they pour a layer of cement in place of the subway tracks and put the tracks above it. Although it is heavy it will hold the 2 ends together
I'm not sure the bridge is strong enough to hold a layer of cement.
I'm not sure the bridge is strong enough to hold up a friggin' Yugo with a full tank of gas ...
We're not talking about the Williamsburg!!!
Nah, the Willy B looks nice now that they've pretty much rebuilt it. It's the Manhattan Bridge to which I say a prayer in hopes of making it to Dekalb before it eventually (and it will, I tell ya) collapses.
Will some one please tell me why the Manhattan Bridge is such horrible shape. Is sit a structural problem or what?
Age, steel fatigue, millions (if not billions) of vehicles and trains crossing it daily, neglect, misguided repairs &c. &c. If they don't do something, it WILL collapse.
I was reading a few weeks back about a combination bridge-tunnel which spans about 8 or 9 miles between Copenhagen, Denmark and a nearby Swedish suburb. It's a great suspension bridge, with H-shaped towers.
There are two decks - one for for vehicular traffic, and another for a two-track rail line beneath it. The thing is - it only cost $2 BILLION US Dollars to construct! I am sure there are a lot of reasons (Larry can provide a list) why they pulled it off for such a bargain-basement price and we would be hard-pressed to duplicate the feat. We should build a new bridge just to the north of the existing Manhattan Bridge if it's in such dire shape - make the new bridge just for car, truck and bus traffic and leave the existing one just for rail? Tunnels are another option, but much more difficult.
Wayne
If a new bridge is built, then the current bridge seems too bulky just for rail and THE LEAST suited for the task. AFAIK (As far as I know, that's the one I forgot to mention to Mr. Sea Beach!) The Willy B seems to do well with it's tracks, so I don't see why I new bridge can't be built with rail and the current bridge, completely demolished.
9/21/99
Concrete roadbed on a suspension bridge? No way,that would be adding too much weight to an already weaken bridge structure. I never heard of a bridge anywhere that had concrete roadbed for trains. Besides,the D-types did their damage to the north side tracks years ago,those Triplex's weren't light as a feather! Besides,the Manhattan Bridge was designed by Leon Moisieff. Didn't he also design the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge,A.K.A. "Galloping Gertie".
Bill Newkirk
9/21/99
The following passage is from the 1977 book "The Bridges of New York by Sharon Reier on page 55.
"The 26-foot high truss and others aspects of the Manhattan Bridge have been scrutinized by David Steinman and other engineers,and have been found wanting. They echo the predictions of (Gustave) Lindenthal:the bridge cannot hold the traffic for which it was designed. Steinman in the 1940's pointedly suggested that the best way to save the bridge was to remove the subways and build a seperate tunnel for them".
Hhhmmmmm! Interesting indeed!
Bill Newkirk
If high cost is really a factor here, why don't they build a seperate bridge for the trains? Makes sense, right?
N Broadway Line
MONEY MONEY MONEY
Besides,the Manhattan Bridge was designed by Leon Moisieff. Didn't he also design the Tacoma-Narrows Bridge,A.K.A "Galloping Gertie"
.... and the Whitestone Bridge, which after Galloping Gertie's collapse received stiffening truss girders for the length of the span?
--Mark
9/21/99
You're right Mark. Those trusses that stiffened the Whitestone Bridge were called "Warren trusses". In fact the Whitestone Bridge as built had pedestrian walkways where the Warren trusses are now. I read that one windy day people driving across the Whitestone saw the bridge deck oscilate just like the Tacoma-Narrows. With the memory of the Tacoma Narrows collapse fresh in their minds,the walkways were elminated and the Warren trusses were installed. And that was about 1940 or so.
The problem with the Manhattan Bridge was placing the subway tracks on the outer parts of the deck. Now if they were in the middle and the vehiclular lane on the outside,the bridge wouldn't be in this trouble today. Shame on you Leon!
Bill Newkirk
HEY! I wasn't the one who said we should use a concrerre roadbed. Even so, many cable stayed have an all concrete deck, everything but the cables are concrete. What's wrong with them?
Oh my goodness, "Galloping Gertie"! I remember seeing footage of the collapse of that bridge back in late 1963 on "You Asked For It". Some poor guy abandoned his car on it and was running down the roadway just as she plopped into the Narrows.
Wayne
That clip is now shown in engineering classes everywhere. To top it all off, it was in color! IIRC, that fellow out on the bridge was trying to rescue a dog in that car. The car wasn't his.
The other story was that the gentleman who filmed the whole thing was tipped off. One of his friends knew he had a movie camera and told him the bridge was starting to undulate. The rest is history.
Jack Smith put it best: filmed at the right place at the right time.
The library in my junior high school (1971) had machines that played 8MM film loop cartridges (something like Kenner's Easy Show projectors). One of the films they had was the color footage of that bridge. We played that baby to death...literally (it broke after several weeks). Man, was that scary! Also, we used to ride the lower level of the Manny B when we'd visit my aunt & uncle in B'klyn, and my mom was always scared to death. She's getting a big laugh now as I read her these posts.
"Tunnels are another option, but much more difficult."
Why is the tunnel so difficult to build? They had no trouble building one before when technology wasn't as advance.
If the problem is cost, why? With the new technology, they have more options in reducing cost.
N Broadway Line
It's not dfficulty, or technology, or cost...it's good old POLITICS! Look at what we're going through with the much needed replacement of the Woodrow Wilson drawbridge (I-95/495) near Washington D.C. It's ready to fall into the Potomac at any time, and the pols are arguing over what Virginia neighborhood would be least disrupted by the new bridge/tunnel. At least, no trains run on the current structure.
We New Yorkers are babes in the woods when it comes to avoiding fixing something.
I know several locations along the ex-PRR mainline where bridges over the railroad beadly need repair. The borough says it's the railroad's responsibility. The railroad says it's the borough's responsibility.
The solution? They close the bridge. And the locals let it happen.
It's got a major design flaw of monumental proportions. With heavy subways crossing on the outside of the bridege, it causes the supports and cross beams to bend significantly whenever a train crosses. 70 years of this, plus deferred maintenance has led tothe monumentally long repair project that continues even now.
However, even when this is done the problem wont go away. Fixing the damage doesn't change the fact that the design will just continue to damage the bridge until yet another rebuild project will have to be undertaken in 50 or so years.
The Willy B's tracks are in the center of the structure, a much better design for railroad tracks on a suspension bridge.
9/21/99
You're right Chris,how ever don'y forget that ALL train traffic is on the north side of the bridge,the south side has been closed for years. Doesn't that cause even for stress to the structure?
If though this is not feasble today,if the train traffic was moved to the center of the bridge and vehicular lanes moved to the outer parts of the bridge,how many tracks would be there. 3 or 4 ??
Bill Newkirk
If moving the tracks to the center really would solve the problem, they should just do it. If they connected DeKalb to the Rutgers at the same time, they'd be able to provide more service then they are likely to need with just two tracks. So you'd put in three, so that two could be in service at all times, even during repairs.
The problem is shifting vehicles to the outside. The roof is too low. Plus, I'm not sure that moving to the center will solve the problem. Brooklyn would be much better off with a new tunnel, and with the trains solid ground.
Larry,
The roof is too low? You mean the trucks are bigger than the trains?
"I'm not sure that moving to the center will solve the problem."
Why????? Everyone seems to be saying that it will put less strain on the cables.
"Brooklyn would be much better off with a new tunnel, and with the trains solid ground."
Really????? Of course!!!
N Broadway Line
Is it even possible to conceive building tracks over the Brooklyn Bridge instead of worrying about saving the Manhattan Bridge. The BB hasn't had trains cross it in decades. Wouldn't that be easier than building another tunnel which could much more expensive. Let me hear from the engineering whizzes out there.
I'm no engineering whiz, but no, it couldn't handle it. The bridge was a marvel for its day, significantly overbuilt, but the stresses of even two tracks of modern subway equipment would be too much. Besides, there are far too many other issues that would make building a new twenty-track bridge cheap by comparison.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ok - first off, the Brooklyn Bridge is out of the question - you'd have to do too much. Second, the manhattan bridge is probbably the STUPIDEST design you can have - nice big, heavy loads at the edges. The Manhattan's replacement should place the tracks at the center of the bridge, like the Williamsburg. But perhaps on 2 levels, to accomodate 4 tracks. (ditto for the roads, tough they already are that way aren't they?).
and it's really time they look at it. The thing is shot. You're not going to fix it up anymore, and besides, even if you do - you'll be back in the same boat 20 years later. It's a flawed design. The best solution would be to demolish the current bridge, and build a new one. From scratch. The 2 - 5 years of nasty traffic will be worth it in the end.
Of course, that's not going to happen unless the bridge colapses, or weakens to the point where it's in immenent danger of colapsing. Neither is far fetched.
I think the best way would be just to give up the idea of a four-track crossing, and use the Manhattan-bound N tracks and the Brooklyn-bound B/D/Q tracks, convert the outer tracks on both sides to pedestrian or bicycle use, and build a flying junction at the Manhattan end so the Q can go back to Broadway (and restore express service there), while the D/B can stay on Sixth Ave. while the N continues through Montague St.
That way, you'd have the same amount of rail traffic on both sides of the bridge for the first time since rail service began 73 years ago, and you wouldn't have to try and relocate the vehicular roads to the outer part of the bridge, or move the rail portals at both the Brooklyn and Manhattan ends. (You would be wrong-railing from the current directions, but you would also have two spare tracks leading into DeKalb, which could be used for the proposed Rutgers tunnel connection that could take either the B or D off the bridge, further reducing the stress load)
The thing about replacing the bridge with something in the same location is subway service would be horrible for years. It might be a two year contract, but with redesigns, lawsuits, strikes, contractor defaults, who knows how long it might take?
One advantage if you were to replace the bridge, however. You might be able to get the FEDs to agree that oceangoing vessels were unlikely to travel the East River in the future, and rebuild a low bridge with shallower grades. The subway would be faster, and the roadbed could tie directly into the BQE and FDR without the inland and hook back out format used by the Brooklyn Bridge.
Bottom line -- since the old bridge is "paid for" it has no tolls, so drivers want to keep it no matter how much it costs because it is "free." With a toll, the city could afford to build new tunnels for both the subway and motor vehicles -- something the neighbors would no doubt prefer. So there is no constituency for a new bridge.
Solution -- toll all the bridges into Manhattan, with EZ-Pass and higher tolls at the peak. Build new subway tunnels/connections and remove the subways from the Manhattan Bridge, and perhaps the Willie B. Build new two-lane vehicular tunnels with 14'4" clearence and remove trucks and buses as well. Leave the bridges for cars, vans, bikes, pedestrians, and street vendors.
[One advantage if you were to replace the bridge, however. You might be able to get the FEDs to agree that oceangoing vessels were unlikely to travel the East River in the future, and rebuild a low bridge with shallower grades. The subway would be faster, and the roadbed could tie directly into the BQE and FDR without the inland and hook back out format used by the Brooklyn Bridge.]
Oceangoing vessels do pass under the Manhattan Bridge - to Domino Sugar in Williamsburg, a cement terminal, and to the repair facilites at the Navy Yard.
Is it even possible to conceive building tracks over the Brooklyn Bridge instead of worrying about saving the Manhattan Bridge? The BB hasn't had trains cross it in decades. Wouldn't that be easier than building another tunnel which could much more expensive? Let me hear from the engineering whizzes out there.
The Brooklyn Bridge is not without problems, either.
I doubt it. Remember the BB carried the lighter BMT el cars and I don't think it could handle the stress of steel subway cars.
NYC DOT is now claiming that Brooklyn Bridge cannot even handle new heavier SUVs. That's a long way down from the old 'L' cars
Even the Hummer, the ultimate SUV for those who think $80K isn't too much to pay to feel really safe from squeegee men, only weighs in at about 3,500 lbs per axle. With its full rated load of necessary equipment to mount a decent ground assault, 5,000 lbs.
Compare this to your typical old elevated car which, even unloaded, comes in at about 14,000 lbs. per axle (with 100 commuters, about 17,500).
So if the BB can't take that Hummer, don't look for any R68s any time soon.
I wonder what DOT would say the Manhattan Bridge could handle -- off the record.
[I wonder what DOT would say the Manhattan Bridge could handle -- off the record.]
If a sparrow alighted on the bridge ... CRASH!
How about ants?
I wonder what DOT would say the Manhattan Bridge could handle -- off the record.
Two Saturns, just so they're spaced at least 100 feet apart.
The thing about the bridge is that the trains move so slow. You almost have to believe the speed limit is set to ensure minimum injuries if a stringer fails and a train derails.
The trains were just as slow back in the 40s and 50s when they used B and D s over it. My uncle and Dad said they were alway slow, as far back as they could remember to the teens and 20s
Those grades on that bridge are fairly steep. You need all the horsepower you can get. Supposedly, BX units of BMT standards were banned from the Manhattan Bridge for that very reason. Once in a while, one would manage to sneak across.
"The Willy B's tracks are in the center of the structure, a much better design for railroad tracks on a suspension bridge."
You also have to take into account the fact the bridge only has 2 tracks in oppose to 4 tracks on the Manhattan Bridge.
CchhhhhhhhhhrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiisssssssssssRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!!
N Broadway Line
It's the placement of the tracks, not weight, which have the bridge in it's current dilema. Had the bridge been designed with the 4 tracks in the center and not along the outside, the bridge would be in much better shape today.
Or so we think. Not to disagree - I think this makes sense - but has anyone actually read anything official, like from a structural engineer, that confirms that the rails on the outside design of the Manhattan Bridge is its chief problem?
If you search for Manhattan Bridge on the web, you can find a 1982 report by Weldinger Associates, an engineering firm. Of course, they said they had a solution that would not involve replacing the bridge, and have been paid big bucks by the city ever since.
Is that the firm which told Ed Koch what he wanted to hear?
I guess. I'd like to see Edward I Koch quizzed on the bridge. He was a good Mayor overall, and was willing to admit mistakes. Maybe if he admitted that that was the worst decision he ever made, something would be done about the bridge.
It's called concrete, not cement (which is just a part of the concrete), and it has very little tensile strength. In plain English, concrete doen't hold anything together, it keep it apart.
Maybe a better idea would be to scrap everything but the towers and the main cables and cable anchorages, if they are in good shape, and replace the rest of the structure from scratch.
(Replace everything except the towers and cables). That seems to be the plan. The problem is, once their done I'm afraid the steel will start cracking again. Or they'll announce that now the cables are rusted and have to be replaced.
OK what if the cables are also replaced and this time have the tracks in the center (three tracks on each level- Broadway on one level and Sixth Avenue on the other (center tracks for peak and emergency reroute) with three traffic lanes each way- cars only-force trucks into the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel.
"force trucks into the Broklyn Battery Tunnel"
I'm not sure how trucks carrying flammable liquids travel now, but I thought I read once that NYC has some ordinance/code banning fuel/carrying delivery trucks from using tunnels, to hopefully avoid some of those blast furnace tragedies like the one in Europe several months ago.
OK. Except for Haz-mat, and oversize. would that work?
Rebuilding the bridge in place would be difficult.
My idea is to connect the DeKalb A/B tracks to the Rutgers while the A/B tracks on the bridge are under repair, and build a connection from the unused 2nd Avenue subway tracks at Grand to the Broad Street subway south of Chambers. With those two connections, you could have service that is better and more frequent than today during all hours save rush hour WITHOUT USING THE BRIDGE.
That would put the bridge in use five or six hours per day, five days per week. If the bridge were only used for one service per set of tracks during rush hour, the number of trains traveling on the bridge would fall by 80 percent overall -- even with an increase in service off peak. The service pattern could be:
RUSH HOURS:
F via Rutgers, 6th Ave local.
Q via Rutgers, 6th Ave local
D via bridge A/B tracks, 6th Ave express.
N via bridge H tracks, Broadway Local (with the Canal St flip proposed by the MTA).
R via Montigue, Broadway Express.
M via Montigue, Nassau St local.
B via Montigue, Nassau St local/6th Avenue Express via Grand.
ALL OTHER TIMES
F via Rutgers, 6th Ave local.
Q via Rutgers, 6th Ave local
D ALSO via Rutgers, 6th Ave express with switch.
R via Montigue, Broadway Express.
N ALSO via Montigue, Broadway Express (with the Canal St flip proposed by the MTA).
B via Montigue, Nassau St local and 6th Avenue Express.
Note that the B would maintain service to Grand Street, Fulton Street, and Broad Street when the bridge is shut down. Fulton and Broad on the Nassau loop are not used on weekends today.
This should at least postpone the day of doom, while providing faster and more reliable service, and more re-route options in case of breakdowns or construction. In the long run, a tunnel could replace the bridge, but at least we wouldn't have to build it until finding out if reduced traffic would extend its life.
The Rutger St tunnel isn't capable of handling present day B, D, and F rush hour service, which would require cutting service on all of those lines. This would be impossible for the F which needs at least a 5 minute headway because of extensive use in Queens. It would also doom any retention of Culver express service and limit where a new 6th Ave. line would go when the 63rd. st tube is connected to the QBlvd line. It can't be used for B and D service. A new tunnel would have constructed.
Sub Talk readers may be interested to learn that Brian Cudahy will be autographing copies of his new book, "The Malbone Street Wreck", this Sunday, Sept. 26th at the New York Is Book Country fair on Fifth Avenue. Brian will be at the Fordham University Press booth at Fifth Avenue and 56th Street between 3:30 and 5:00 in the afternoon. Copies
of his other books will also be available for purchase.
Looks like Brian timed the release of his book closely to the inaugural of the NEW Franklin Ave. Shuttle.
Coincidence, or major publishing strategy?
Doug aka BMTman
An entire book on one train wreck???
But what a train wreck!
If Brian tells it right (and I have every reason to expect he will) it's a story of people, politics and the era just before the end of World War I. My parents and others in the Flatbush community were still talking about it 40 years later.
I also expect he will lay to rest some of the rumors and misinformation about the wreck that have accumulated over the years.
My brother and I assembled quite a bit of research about the wreck years ago ... it's a much more interesting story than you might think.
That's a book I'm looking forward to. With due respect to Mr. Fischler, Cudahy's subway books are definitive.
I looked for it at Amazon and it's not out yet. When is the release date?
BTW I wonder if he's going to get into the renaming of Malbone Street in the book. 99% of the accounts I've read has it that the renaming of the street to Empire Blvd. was due to the wreck. Yet, I seem to remember reading someplace that the city had intended to straighten and widen Malbone Street at the time anyway, and the wreck was a convenient (though tragic) way to get the street renamed. A small piece of Malbone Street that still exists near New York Avenue is a case in point--it is probably a piece that got left over after the rest of it was straightened.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The usual MO on these sorts of books is to build a whole "slice of life" description around a big event. For example, the "Perfect Storm" book (which was excellent) was the story of a shipwreck, but it built a whole description of the life and occupation of fisherman, fishing towns, and even weather around it. Brooklyn at the time of the Dual Contracts would be a facinating study.
If he put enough in, I think it would make a great movie. More people would watch it -- and find out about the history of the subway and Brooklyn -- than have watched all the documentaries on the subways. First you have the fight over the dual contracts, then the labor battle, the the court battle, and in the end the subways are built, etc.
If anyone wants to really read excellent accounts of the Malbone St wreck, go to the library and view that week's NY Times on microfilm. This way you read the accounts as it occured. For example the day after all the big articles (2 days after incident) there is the article about finding the motorman in a bar when the 1rst day's paper labeled him as one of the missing. Years ago when I was in college (and already a subway buff) I found the articles by accident while looking for articles on WW1.
I've done that.
Further research shows that newspaper accounts are timely, but not always accurate.
Whatever else happened after the wreck, Luciano was closeted with BRT company officials at the time of his arrest.
If anyone wants to really read excellent accounts of the Malbone St wreck,
Funny you should ask but Bill Palter just sent me some text...
SCORES KILLED, MANY HURT ON B.R.T. (November 2, 1918)
-Dave
I am going to go down to the old records room of my precinct during the week and see if I could find the desk blotter for that date. I doubt it though, as the earliest blotter I've found was in 1923 (and every one later than that) but maybe the earlier ones are in another room or on shelves mixed with later ones. My pct is close to the area so there are probably numerous entries about it if I could only find it. In those days the desk officers put everything in the blotter.
Hey Dave, is this a temporary page (The NY Times Article) or are you planning on keeping it on your site? I'm planning on putting a link to it on my trainbuff site. If not, can I have both your permission to put the article itself on my site?
That will be a new permanent section although I suppose I shouldn't call it "nytimes"-
It will be a place for out of copyright news articles from whatever source.
So read it today but I'll probably rename the directory tree at some point.
Bill also gave me some other NY Times articles that I'll get up on the site this week.
-dave
Are these articles found on the internet or did Bill scan them from the actual articles on microfilm or something? The NY Times website only has archived papers to download after 1980.
By the way, I went down to my station house record room to see if I could find the desk blotter (log) from the Malbone date. My pct is pretty close and I'm sure there were plenty of entries about the wreck including sending details there. Unfortunately I could only find blotters going back to 1923. (pretty much a complete set from '23 to the present!!) I know they did exist as the earliest one in '23 was continued from another one. I will try to see if they're somewhere else & if I find it I'll photocopy the pages and snailmail it to you. However I'm not too optimistic.
They were basicly copied from the Microfilm, I din't have much luck scanning them, so I ended up retyping the articles.
Bill
I feel for you there. The articles I submitted for "Day One on the IRT" were hand-typed as well.
Thanks for sending in that Malbone St wreck article. Now I don't have to do it! I had promised to do it for Dave many moons ago but didn't get around to it - the IND article (now being revised) took up more time than I thought.
--Mark
Thanks for the excellent piece, Dave.
A couple of notes: as might be expected, some of the details mentioned were revised later. For example, shortly afterwards, M/M Luciano (in early accounts Lewis, his anglicized name) did describe some of what he did immediately after the accident, though here he claimed no memory.
Also, a while ago on the forum we were discussing Stan Fischler's story that many passengers were electrocuted when the BRT turned power back on after the wreck. As you can see from this account, this never happened.
Here are some of the more interesting headlines (from the NY Times Index) for the next couple of days: (notice that polititions and the media really havent changed
all that much)
Nov 3rd
inquiry begun by Mayor Hylan sitting as magistrate: moterman Lewis blames brakes, called incompetent by Dist Atty Lewis; Public Service Comr Whitney charges Mayor Hylan with attempting to make political capital out of disaster; Hylan assails Public Service Comm; 85 dead, 103 injured according to revised list; statement by War Labor Bd, N 3. 1:1;
Nov 5th
investigation begun In Brooklyn before Mayor Hylan sitting as a Magistrate reveals fact that Motorman Lewis had only 80 hrs training; prosecutor lays foundations for bringing in officials; T. H. Whitney attacks Hylan charging that he disqualified himself for any judicial position in the inquiry by publishing his conclusions as to the guilt prior to the hearing and makes public copies of letter written by Hylan while a County Judge to Vice-Pres of B R T soliciting places for
personal friends. N 5. 24:1;
Nov 8
motorman A. E. Lewis never officially certified as competent Instructor J. B. McCann tells Dist Atty Lewis; Public Service
Comr Whitney accuses Mayor Hylan of not trying to elicit any information that might reflect on the Brotherhood of
Locomotive Engineers, which called strike of motermen N 8. 11:1:
Nov 14
Hylan resumes Inquiry; B R T witnesses testify that Vice Pres J. J. Dempsey was in control of all matters connected with
operations; J. R. Hallock admits that he is Pres of N. Y.
Consolidated R R Co In name only, N 14, 11:4;
Nov 21
R. Ketcham switchman testifies; witnesses called in effort to show that Directors were generally dummies and officials are
in actual control; W. S. Menden; W. S, Benedict. G. W. Chauncey and J. J. Dick testify. N 21, 11:1;
Just a note for those who may be confused by the motorman's name:
Various combinations of his name were put together in different accounts and at trial with both Anglicized and Italian constructions. So his first and middle names are variously Anthony, Edward, Antonio (sometimes one first, sometimes the other), I've also seen him referred to as "Billy,"
For last name we have mainly Lewis and Luciano, the first was apparently as he was commonly known, the second his legal surname. I've also seen "Luciana" (with an "a") but I think this is a simple error.
Also the English and Italian constructions are sometimes mixed in the same description--i.e., "Edward Luciano."
This becomes more confusing because there were a number of people surnamed "Lewis" who were involved in the case, including the D.A.
Also note the references to Mayor Hylan "sitting as magistrate." The mayor has the right to do this but it is, and was, quite extraordinary. If he were a sitting judge, he should probably have recused himself for prejudice, or at least conflict of interest, but as Mayor he jumped in with both feet.
[Just a note for those who may be confused by the motorman's name:
Various combinations of his name were put together in different accounts and at trial with both Anglicized and Italian
constructions. So his first and middle names are variously Anthony, Edward, Antonio (sometimes one first, sometimes the other), I've also seen him referred to as "Billy,"
For last name we have mainly Lewis and Luciano, the first was apparently as he was commonly known, the second his legal surname. I've also seen "Luciana" (with an "a") but I think this is a simple error.
Also the English and Italian constructions are sometimes mixed in the same description--i.e., "Edward Luciano."]
I've always wondered what became of the motorman. Although he wasn't convicted of any crime, I suspect that BRT management made him a sacrificial lamb and fired him from his regular dispatcher's job. Hopefully Brian Cudahy's book will address this.
There is a story he lost his mind. There is even a story that they reenacted the accident with him at the controls to try to "snap him out of it." However, since I never saw any confirming info for this, I'd take the story with a grain of salt.
BTW, the accident was reenacted (without crashing ) to try to gather information on how it occurred. This is not unusual.
Cool. I can add this to my autographed "Under the Sidewalks". :-)
If I can't go..which is a possibility (*sigh*), somebody,PLEASE mention this web site to him..I think he would be really impressed by the amount of hard work that has gone into this site..and MAYBE we could get him to contribute...at LEAST to the forum, if nothing else....and again, I say, a Malbone St book...COOL!....
Why dont we make this a NYSR Field Trip?????? We all meet at the booth around 4ish???
I'll drop off a bunch of www.nycsubway.org brochures and ask if they will hand them out for me...
-Dave
>>>I'll drop off a bunch of www.nycsubway.org brochures<<
You have brochures? Can you post the contents on the site someplace?
The Brochure is really just a little blurb about the site accompanied by some of the items on the various section menus (with the descriptive text and URL printed out longhand for each thing). There's a couple of photos that go along with it. It's really just a promotional thing to get people to the site who might not already be a websurfer. I've handed them out at train shows, and to people I've met/talked to at museums, fan trips, etc. If you really want to see it email me and I'll send it to you (it's a MS Powerpoint document).
-Dave
You should send some brochures to the various media outlets around town. Their coverage of transit issues might improve. It doesn't take much in the way of factual information to get in the newspapers. Even though this site doesn't have complete and perfect info, its more complete and more accurate than what the media puts out.
So what day is the new Franklin Shuttle supposed to open? Perhaps I can be there on opening day.
Kevin, I wasn't able to get hold of my contact today, but I am going to stick with the original date I was given which was the week of October 6th. Now, I called NYCT Information today and got hold of a human -- believe it or not -- and was told that she heard JANUARY is the target date. I told her that was the ORIGINAL PROJECTED DATE, and that I was certain October was it. To wit, she put me on hold while she went to get a supervisor to settle the discrepency. After a couple of minutes she returned and said that yes, October was the taget date, but later in the month.
Anyhow, have no fear, I will get hold of my friend sometime this week. I'll rattle his cage and get the scoop, posting as soon as I get it.
Doug aka BMTman
Has anyone heard about a new trolley museum at Scranton, Pa.? A friend of mine told me about it at work today.
Thanks sub-talk guys & gals!
Chuck Greene
There is a great museum in Scranton called Steamtown National Historic Site. My last visit was a year ago. They could have added some trolleys this year. I've seen the new enlarged museum at Strasburg but for my money Steamtown wins all. I see a website for it in one of my travel guides although I haven't tried the website myself. WWW.nps.gov/stea
If that website doesn't work I'm sure there is a link somewhere, Steamtown is run by the National Park Service.
When was Strasburg enlarged? I was there 2 years ago. Was it the enlarged at that time?
Actually the trolley museum is a seperate entity from Steamtown. The collection is mostly ex Philly cars that were a part of the Buckingham Valley group. I believe Ed Blossom is involved as well
It's within the same old freight yard, but Steve L. is correct that it's housed in a seperate area. They've been putting up trolley poles & plan to start running s-o-o-n.
I was there in August when I took an old steamer to Moscow & stayed in the old train station which is now a fine hotel.
Mr t__:^)
It was supposed to have opened Memorial Day, then July 4th, then Labor Day, but as I understand it the funds have run out. Apparently a promised contribution of VERY BIG BUCKS hasn't come through - I've heard several different reasons why but I won't comment on them here since I don't know which one or ones (or none) are the truth.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was in Scranton in late July and stopped by Steamtown. The Lackawanna Trolley Museum was advertised at the far end of the parking lot (I think it's the west side of the site) where you enter from the street leading from downtown Scranton. At the time the museum was advertised to open in Fall 99. I haven't heard much about it.
The Phila Inquirer covered the movement of Buckingham Valley's fleet from this area to Scranton last spring. It appears that most of the equipment will be PTC/Red Arrow.
Also, there is movement to build a Phila-area museum on the Germantown Depot site. Don't hold your breath, especially if SEPTA gets involved. SEPTA had a great thing with Trolleyfest but don't look for another one of those either...
Were there provisions made for eventual A train service over the GW Bridge when the IND was constructed? Any bellmouths N. of 168th St?
Carl M.
I don't think there were ever plans to make any type of interstate subway line by the IND.
When the GW Bridge opened in 1931, the towers and cables were designed for the weight of a second deck (which of course was added in 1962). The original idea for the second deck was indeed for electric rail transit, but it never got beyond the conceptual stage. No specific provision to connect the IND to the bridge was ever designed, to my knowledge.
I did hear of such an idea. It would connect through what is now the 174th St layup tracks. (No bellmoth, just an extension of existing tracks)
I guess they built the GW Bridge bus station instead. I once saw a 1948 City Planning report that came out against additional rail transit lines to NJ, arguing that express buses could carry the load. Of course, once enough cars got in the way of the buses, rail service began to look a lot better. But I still think the buses carry more people than the trains in NJ.
Apparently you have not ridden NJT's North Jersey Coast and especially the Northeast Corridor line(NECL)
on the NECL they sometimes run 12 car trains. Each Arrow car seats around 115(based on NJT specs) . That makes 1380 seated passengers per train plus standees. Lets say 20 standees per car plus 5 each end vestibule or 355 per train (the front vestibule is closed in first car due to engineer operating the train.) we now have 1735 per train!
now at 40 per bus you'd need 44 buses (43 plus a piece) to handle the people. SOme lines yes but not NECL!
during FLoyd and Christmas 1997 the trains were so full that transit police actually pulled people off the train and pushed others in!
The second deck of the birdge is called "Martha" by the locals. Now don't ask why because this is a family web-site.
Larry,RedbirdR33
EMail it to me. You got me curious.
As far as I know the 8th Avenue subway was planned to branch
off and go on a proposed lower level of the George Washington
bridge to New Jersey. That is why the stations on the line
are not deep stations like the IRT in Washington Heights.
You're right about the stations at 155th/St Nicholas, 163/Amsterdam, 168/Broadway, and 175/Ft Washington. All are close to the street level because the IND tunnel follows the natural land contour. Also, the IND tunnel has to go over the IRT tunnel at 168th. Beyond 175th, the stations at 181/Ft Wash and 190Overlook Terrace are indeed very deep - I believe because the tunnel goes back to cut and cover at Dyckman/Broadway, it has to remain deep at 181 and 190 in order to return to "sea level", since Fort Washington Ave. follows a high ridge north of 175th Street. The area isn't called Washington Heights for nothing.
Again, I don't know of any real plan to connect the IND to the GW Bridge - but it's certainly conceivable that the idea was in someone's mind. The subway opened in 1932, a year after the bridge opened.
Whatever the case, it's obvious that in 1999 no one will seriously consider rail transit over the GW Bridge. More pressing projects in both NJ and NY need to be built (e.g., 2nd Ave subway, LIRR to Grand Central).
How about the 190 St Station under Ft Washington Ave, that is not deep, I know you canwalk out thru a tunnel but you still need a elevator to go upstairs
Another clue may be the end of 4 tracks at 168th & branch, small yard, just after that.
Mr t__:^)
Put it this way: if they were to name a double-deck bridge after Bill Clinton, they'd name the lower level Monica.
RIM SHOT!!
I came up with the same idea although New Jersey Transit would operate the trains and would meet the IND at 145th street. 2 NJT lines would stay with 8th Av and 1 line would enter 6th Av to Coney Island
Since there seems to be interest, I will lead a tour of Stilwell Avenue Complex on Wednesday Evening 9/22/1999 at 6:00PM. Meet inside the paid area near the main booth turnstiles.
We will see the freight elevators, the doors to the trash room (not the room), the old semaphore signal, bus lanes, along with other interesting features.
If you are interested in dinner- we'll meet a Nathan's at 5PM (tour does not include dinner!)
To reach Stillwell Take the B,D,F or N to the last stop in Brooklyn.
This sure is short notice, but I will try to be there. One problem I foresee is that the evenings are getting dark much earlier now so that lighting will be a necessity for any photos. Maybe we should also ask our resident meteorologist what the weather might be?
Cloudy, a bit breezy, mid 60's.
And that's transit and weather together.
Peggy Oh Peggy: Why didn't you have such a tour when I was in Brooklyn last month. Stillwell Avenue fascinates the hell out of me, but I hope the restroom is running this time. It was broken down when I was there and when I entered it I wondered if the tide had come in. They need to clean the place up and make it a showplace. Believe it or not, in 1953, the last time I was there as a New Yorker, the place was pretty neat.
They should just rebuild the whole complex. It's a total eyesore!
I remember I went to Coney Is with a friend from Junior High in the mid 60's. As we lived on the island he never really rode the subway. I, on the other hand probably rode every line many times over. His reaction to the Stillwell Av Station (only about 12-14 yrs after the time you mentioned): This is the creepiest place I've ever been in!!! Just as an aside, I took him on the Wonder Wheel and didn't tell him the cars were sliding cars!! I still could hear his screams. I took my 3yr old son to the Aquarium this year (over 30 yrs later, where did the time go) From the LIRR we took the Brighton to and the West End fro. We even went on the Wonder Wheel (a non-sliding car)
Jeff: When I went to Coney Island this summer, (and I went the first full day I was in New York) the first thing I did was ride the Cyclone. I swear I still love that roller coaster better than any others I have ridden here in California or the other places I've been. It's the grand daddy of that type of ride, and it goes fast from the get-go, the dips are great and fast, and it;s rickety. I loved it. When they clean up Stillwell Avenue, they must revamp Coney Island, and clean up the trains running to Coney---especially my Sea Beach.
BTW, The Cyclone was voted amoung the ten best in the World by folks who ride they all (5 steel & 5 wood), so in the top 5 of wood coasters.
P.S. the Hot Dogs at Nathans are bad either, but no longer 5 cents.
Mr t__:^)
See Thurston, what did I tell you. Coney Island may be seedy, but the Cyclone is still a gem and an icon.
"P.S. the Hot Dogs at Nathans are bad either, but no longer 5 cents"
I hope that was a typo!
Rescheduled to 10/20/1999- Also Wednesday due to short notice and no response.
IF I do not get a response from at least 2 people it will be canceled.
Can't the tour be done on a Sunday?
Bummer - I will be in the city the following week.
The **tentative** reopening date is 10/2/1999. SOURCE: official buleltin listing job awards for Station Cleaners for " Open Job Bid #1"
For those of you who are waiting for me to send My IRT Similation Games in I just sent 3 Games in and hopefully be up in 2 weeks for all to play with. Here are My 3 IRT Tower Similation games.
1. New Lots Tower - Has the levonia Yard with main line to Sutter Ave
2. Utica Tower- Controls Utica Terminal plus relays tracks and the No.3 line tracks. Also The Flatbush Ave Line and Franklin Junction.
3. Bowling Green Tower. This will control yours No.1,2,3,4,5 Lines
I'll let you know when there posted. Have Fun!
Also At this time I do not know if it will go in the Free or pay section. It all depend how good they think my games are. Some games only IRT People will understand it.
Hey Dave, I bought the game last week & it was fun. Soon i will buy Track Builder. When i get the Track Builder, i am thinking about making old 2nd & 3rd Ave El from 125st to Gun Hill Rd track builder.
Peace Out
Meaney
It ran on the C as the 09:56 168th. 6 cars.
I saw it 2 weeks ago and was a bit suprised. Why only 6 cars?
The other 3 cars are cannabalized for parts. The TA is too cheap to buy new parts. That's why they have unitized the R68A's and doing that to the R68's. Also the R62's and R62A's. Brian
Not too cheap, just that it's idiotic to buy replacement parts for what is a one-off 'concept' vehicle. The 110s were bought to prove technologies that are being used in the 142 and 143.
Unitizing the 68s and the 62s makes econic sense, as well as operational sense. The only drawback is that if one car has a problem, you must take 5 from service. The only reason that these cars were bought as singles is because of the deferred maintainence problems of the 70s and 80s made car availability a major headache. With MDBF numbers now in the upper 30-50 thousand range (as opposed to the 6-10 thousand of the early 80s) this is no longer neccesary.
-Hank
Geez, how I remember that place. Way out here in California, I drive a transit bus, and one of my regular passengers is an 86 year old man by the name of Van Arsdale France -- he was one of the people who "got the ball rolling" at Freedomland, hiring the employees, and developing company policy. He also worked for Disneyland out here for 30+ years too! (He has authored a book on his experiences, it is called "Window on Main Street", the Main Street being a reference to an "award" that is geven long-time Disneyland employees upon retirement.)
I found a site that has numerous maps and photos of Freedomland if anyone wants ro relive the memories. Hopefully the site is still up; it has been awhile since I checked it. Here's the URL:
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/robfriedman/
Every ride and area of the park is detailed very well on this page.
Hopefully it's still there for y'all to enjoy!!
Thanks Steve. Just went to that site and it was excellent. I still have home movies that my parents took when they took us to Freedomland when I was about 7 or 8.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transitbuff page
a SICK & SHOCKING news article!!!
take my color quiz
glad you liked the site... i've had a lot of fun with it.. and I'm hoping to do a major update real soon
Rob
What do you use to maintain it? I've had little luck trying to make anything of my CompuServe home page due to difficulties uploading things to it. An IP address for the site may be helpful, then I might be able to use something like Coffee Cup DirectFTP.
Wayne
I use HPW for the compuserve portion of the site.. and WP-FTPle for the Digiweb portion.. it's about 7.5 megs.. so it actually spans 2 servers.. nice seamless jump eh?
my current program of choice is AOLPress
Rob
Thanks VERY MUCH for your efforts, Rob!! The site brought back many, many memories!
Great site -- thanks for the tip!
Doug aka BMTman
For a complete description of these historic photos, and to obtain a thumbnail JPEG of two of the photos, check out eBay Item #168000977. Auction closes 9-30-99.
While he sells nice stuff, can you believe the prices? I wouldnt mind getting some of his stuff, but geez!
I also have a problem with the fact that you are getting in-copyright photos, so you can do nothing with these photos but frame them or file them away to admire. I don't see any assurance that more sets of these can't be pulled, so you may not be bidding on an item of real scarcity.
Joe Saitta has done some awfully nice printed stuff. Since this is copyright material anyway, I'd like to see him publish albums of some of these pictures, so we could all enjoy them at a more reasonable price.
Can someone post the URL of those photos please?
Description, no photos here
I remember as a kid in NY, at the Herald Square Station of the BMT/IND/H & M there used to be a underground walkway from there to Penn Station, I think it was under 32 or 33rd Sts. When I was in NY a couple of months ago, I could not find it. Is it still there. I was by the old Gimbels Dept Store
9/21/99
I mentioned this a couple of weeks ago,perhaps you didn't see it. That passageway was closed several years ago.It was long poorly lit and unsafe! Only one way in and one way out,get mugged in the middle and you're toast. That passage way must have been privately owned,since lighting fixtures,tiles etc. didn't give clues that it was owned by the TA or PATH. In the late 70's while walking through there,there were papered over picture windows,like the department stores have. The passageway probably was privately owned.
Bill Newkirk
You would think that with the decline in crimes and all the police that the city now has that they could at least re-open it during the day.
And especially now since the PATH end is now a bustling retail area, while before it was more desolate.
9/21/99
Well guys,I don't know how many of you used that passage when it was open.When I used it,I walked fast. Like I said one entrance at one end,one long block later,the exit. Walk the halfway point and a crowd of rowdies are headed your way,you're gonna turn around and split! There wasn't even a stairway to the street in the middle. This is not a station,but the passageway was 10 times spookier than all the spooky subway stations mentioned here. Also foot security would run into money. Cheaper to close.
Bill Newkirk
Thanks Bill, I think it was owned by Gimbels Dept Store, I remember it had all their posters on the wall, but it was always crowded during business hours
[And especially now since the PATH end is now a bustling retail area, while before it was more desolate.]
I'm not sure I would characterize it that way. There's an entrance to the Manhattan Mall to the right as you're facing the PATH turnstiles, and a newsstand, but that's about it. Farther north on the corridor, close to the passageway's entrance, are these blocked off entrances to the Herald Square shops (the former Korvette's site, now mostly vacant except for Toys 'R' Us and Daffy's) that contribute to an overall depressing look. The corridor itself is a notorious bedrooom - and restroom - for skells, and smells the part.
The Passageway from the WTC to the A is also fast become homeless Blvd-- I have noticed they now have gates to the passageway at the WTC end.. Maybe they will close this overnight to keep down the homeless?
[I'm not sure I would characterize it that way. There's an entrance to the Manhattan Mall to the right as you're facing the PATH turnstiles, and a newsstand, but that's about it. Farther north on the corridor, close to the passageway's entrance, are these blocked off entrances to the Herald Square shops (the former Korvette's site, now mostly vacant except for Toys 'R' Us and Daffy's) that contribute to an overall depressing look. The corridor itself is a notorious bedrooom - and restroom - for skells, and smells the part.]
They should either open those, which might bring more people and chase the homeless out, or reconfigure the area to bring both passages into the fare controlled zone.
If they use the old corridor as fare control zone, that means a free transfer from the B-D-F-Q-N-R to the 1-2-3 and may help with the rebuilding at Times Square
The skells wont let the matter of being inside a paid zone stop them . Look at 168 on the 1 line- always tons of them on the plat. I work at 23rd/8th and one skell jumps 4-5-6 times in one night! and thast is just at my station! I have also seen the person at WTC, 14, w4, Jamaica/ Van WYck (E)[I did get a cop to nab the person there but the station agent in the booth let the person in!- felt like wringing the neck of the station agent!(I did not) and told the station agent who tehn said they were sorry.]
A warm & safe place to sleep for $1.50 in NYC is a *bargin*!!!
Were the skells this bad before the breakup of the Transit Police?? I hardly see a cop on the trains/plats now that they are not assigned as before. Is lax enforcement returning to the subways?
[They should either open those (closed-off entrances to Herald Square shops), which might bring more people and chase the homeless out, or reconfigure the area to bring both passages into the fare controlled zone.]
Bringing the Herald Square end of the passageway into the fare zone would be a major undertaking given its location. It probably would be an easier job on the Penn Station end, though it's hard for me to say for sure as I don't know its exact location.
Reopening the Herald Square shops entrance definitely would make the corridor better, but I don't see that happening because the shops themselves are a major flop (they've been discussed on the "Dead Malls" thread on misc.transport.road!)
It would actually be easier on the PATH side. Divide the n/s passage in the middle from the turnstile area to the stair to the street. Remove fence to right of turnstiles, connecting east side of passage to fare control. West side still connects to street. In this idea, you wouldn't be able to open the store entrances, becaus past the stair to the street the whole passage would be in the fare control area. Then, set up another turnstile at the southern end of the passage right before the mall entrance. This is where the e/w passage is. The west end is adjacent to the stair to the south side of 33rd. St. The is a door and blank wall, then the stair is to the right. They redid this whole area, putting the token booth up against the wall, but I had suggested putting a high entrance on the stair, and then joining the tunnel with the uptown 1/9 platform along the south wall with fencing.
Is Toys ® Us a flop too? I though that was doing good.
Interesting idea, I'll have to check out the area to picture it better.
As far as I know, the Toys 'R' Us at Herald Center's doing okay (though the chain in general is not). Trouble is, it only occupies two or three floors, which even when combined with Daffy's leaves a great deal of empty space.
I was sorry to see Korvette's go. Their record (what's an LP?) department was excellent, with a huge selection.
They should build a connecting bridge from the Manhattan Mall food Court, to the Herald Center food Court. (I believe they are on the same level). That one used to be desolate, and was closed off and perhaps converted to office, stock or some other use. (I wandered up there one evening a few years ago, and it was spooky. The elevators ran even when everything was closed, but anything could happen to you and noone would know). It was at that point I becan wishing it was connected, especially since the only other indoor connection-- the underground exits from Toys R Us to the PATH/subway passageway were closed.
I wouldn't say that. The few times I've been to this mall, it's been very crowded. You can't buy a seat in the food court. It seems to get a lot of weekday lunchtime workers. Whether suburbanites are willing to take the train in rather than drive to their local mall is another question.
[I wouldn't say that. The few times I've been to this mall, it's been very crowded. You can't buy a seat in the food court. It seems to get a lot of weekday lunchtime workers.]
We're mixing up shopping centers here. Manhattan Mall, located between 32nd and 33rd Streets, indeed is quite successful. It occupies the old Gimbel's site. The place that *is* a flop is Herald Center, which is the building fronted with black glass between 33rd and 34th Streets. It occupies the former Korvette's site. Toys 'R' Us and Daffy's are its sole occupants, except for maybe a couple of food places, and much of the floor space is vacant.
Herald Center's downfall, according to a recent (if somewhat off-topic!) discussion on misc.transport.road, is that there is no atrium as at Manhattan Mall; each floor is separate from the others. That sort of physical arrangement is quite unpopular with shoppers. It's worth noting that two-level suburban malls generally arrange the landscape in a way that there is ground-level access to the upper floor at some point. People just don't like going upstairs to shop, as they must do at Herald Center. Manhattan Mall gets around this physical limitation through its use of a large atrium.
Very few suburbanites -- or outer borough residents -- travel to Manhattan to shop anymore. But so many of them are already there for other reasons -- working, entertainment -- that it generates lots of sales. Manhattan residents also have lots of cash. Throw in the tourists and Manhattan doesn't need to compete with the local mall.
I have ridden the e train from midtown to penn station each evening and the trains are overloaded from about 4:50 PM so that passengers are left standing there in an overheated 100 degrees station down two levels, nearly collapsing from the heat and lack of air, while train after train leaves and they wait for the next train. The other evening I had to wait for two trains and about 35 minutes until I finally got on a train. I tried the front end and the back end of the train and everything was overloaded. WHY ARENT THERE MORE FREQUENT TRAINS AT RUSH HOUR ON THE E LINE? WHY DO THE TRAINS HAVE TO BE LOADED TO THE POINT WHERE THEY ARE SCRAPING THE RAILS, FORCING THE DOORS,TIPPING SLIGHTLY TOWARDS THE PLATFORM, AND UNSAFE?
I tried to ride the train after 10:00--the trains come every 30 minutes. One evening one of the other passengers told me they sometimes come every 40 minutes. Why is there so much time between E TRAINS. In the same amount of time, there are three or four other trains going past on the other platforms uptown or one level down, downtown. Is there a reason there is such infrequent running of the trains on the E LINE? Have you ever stood in a 100 degrees station for 30 minutes with more and more people gathering at the platform?
I also think you need to put in a loud speaker system that is better than the one that is in the station. THe other night it took 30 minutes to announce there was NO SERVICE on the ELINE and then only if you stood next to the center stairway could you hear the message. You could have stood down there for hours thinking there was going to be an E TRAIN.
WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO CHANGE THE SERVICE AND CONDITIONS WITH RESPECT TO THE E TRAIN AND THE 7th AVE STATION--A LETTER TO THE MAYOR? THE BOARD? THE GOVERNOR? THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT? THE STATE PUBLIC HEALTH DEPARTMENT (by the way if you stand down there long enough, you get to watch the rats running back and forth, as most of us do while waiting forever for the trains). THE CITY PUBLIC HEALTH DEPARTMENT? The ceilings ooze and drip, it is constantly wet, and it is a disgrace that a station so close to Broadway, the Sheraton and Hilton,the Theaters and Midtown, is run in such lousy SHABBY SHAPE.
Late night trains are usually about 20 mins apart. Also the station you mentioned is 7th Ave (7th Ave-53rd St).
Wayne
There doesn't seem to be a cure for the water problem. The recent reconstruction made it worse.
We're not the transit Authority, call 718-330-1234, they'll be more than happy to hear your complaints.
-Hank
I'll respond out of courtesy since I work the line, but SubTalk is not the NYCTA complaint WebSite. Write to them at 370 Jay St. Brooklyn.....You are making worse case senarios the norm........ At 10 PM, reroutes caused by general orders haven't started yet. At that time, there is a 12 minute headway........ Yes, the station is hot, no hotter than any other underground station with 4 tracks......."The other evening" you were talking about, there was a stalled train in the under river tubes at the begiining of the rush and the railroad never recovered. All you had to do in that case is take the B/D to 34/6 and Penn Station is just one block over......On a normal day, starting at Lex/53 the front cars are jammed to the point that conductors have problems getting doors closed and the rear cars have plenty of room all the way to Penn Station........The E runs on a 4 to 5 minute headway during the rush. Since it shares trackage with the F in Queens and the C on Eighth Ave., that headway cannot be shortened..... The service would run on time if our customers would refrain from holding the doors. A 30 second loss at any station causes more and more passengers to squeeze on that train at subsequent stations making it later and allowing the next one to catch up.
Near 4th and Union in Brooklyn, next to a building with "www.gowanus.com" spraypainted on it, is a SEPTA PCC car sitting in a vacant lot. Does anyone know what's happening with that?
Thanks, Dave
Dave@Barraza.com
Dave. In case you haven't caught them, there's a bunch of posts since Sunday here about the Septa car.
Got to get back on the road. tchhhh-ssss . Just releasing my air brakes.
Actually, when a train of R-1/9s went "tchhh-sssss", it was normally coming to a stop. Once in a great while, I would hear it just before the motorman applied power. Maybe he accidentally hit the brake valve.
BTW, I replayed that tape last night on a different deck, and this time I could hear lurching sounds as the train started up.
Yeah, sorry, I posted first, read messages later!
New subway and bus pics have arrived at TransiTALK, check it out!!
http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650/NYCTransit.html
Trevor
My original post may have been lost in the wake of Floyd, so here goes again---in the concourse of the Staten Island Ferry terminal, thee is some type of office being constructed at the location of the old Paul Miller Dry Cleaning shop----the words "MTA---New York City Transit" are seemingly bevelled into the glass over the entrance way---anyone know what's being built?
Probably another Transit Museum store and information center!
Trevor
Steve K notes: “While he sells nice stuff, can you believe the prices? I wouldnt mind getting some of his stuff, but geez!”
The compliment about “nice stuff” is sincerely appreciated. But obviously Steve does not recognize, or wish to recognize, the costs involved. I challenge him to find a professional photo lab print a quality 8”x10” black and white photo from the odd size 116/616 negative for under $7-8.00 per negative. We are offering a minimum bid price of $6.50 per print. And, just where are you going to find the original negative from which to make a print? Then there are other costs, such as advertising, commissions, packaging, mailing, administration, etc.,all very time-consuming. And, isn’t the person who originally took the negatives about six decades ago, and who is now in his 80’s and living on only a very limited income, entitled to some pittance of compensation for his having had the foresight to preserve a part of electric traction history, and is offering his collection for those interested in seeing it? The photos are being offered at a very fair price. Before any mention is made of a so-called high price, any reasonable person would attempt to factor in all costs involved.
Paul Matus states: “I also have a problem with the fact that you are getting in-copyright photos, so you can do nothing with these photos but frame them or file them away to admire. I don't see any assurance that more sets of these can't be pulled, so you may not be bidding on an item of real scarcity.”
“Joe Saitta has done some awfully nice printed stuff. Since this is copyright material anyway, I'd like to see him publish albums of some of these pictures, so we could all enjoy them at a more reasonable price.”
Paul Matus states that he does not wish to purchase copyrighted photos. This is, of course, his decision. The photos being offered are meant for personal use only, not to be copied or splashed all over the Internet. The person who took these photos has every legal right to protect his creations. If Mr. Matus had taken the these photographs and then saw them offered to the world without some sort of compensation, how would he react? Is not everyone entitled to be rewarded in some way for their efforts?
Think about how many other railfans protect their “creations” by storing them away and never letting anyone see them. In searching for photos for an upcoming book I am assembling, I met, by chance, a closet railfan’s daughter who could not find a home for her deceased father’s huge (over 200,000) negative collection. She was willing sell it or donate it to libraries, but all of the libraries contacted refused to take it because of its immense size and the work it would entail in cataloging the material. This negative collection consisted not only of New York City area transit vehicles but also boats, parks, buildings, etc. All photos were professionally taken with a tripod-mounted Zeis Ikon camera using filtration where necessary. Sad to say, this collection, which had huge amounts of Brooklyn material, met its fate in a municipal incinerator. Fortunately, the 1939 World’s Fair negatives were saved, but all the trolley, subway, elevated ended up like the prototypes. I did see a number of albums from which prints were made, and, sad to saying, even thinking about what eventually happened to this fantastic negative collection calls for a crying towel.
Paul also notes that more photos could be pulled from the same negatives. This is true, but with more than ten thousand New York City area negatives available, and with this collection about to increase substantially in size through the acquisition of more negatives, it would normally be a long time before the same set were to be offered - and this would probably be at a higher price. These particular photos are not being sold on their rarity but rather their quality. And, suppose the negative collection from which these photos were printed met an unfortunate fate? Copy negatives do not have even the near-quality of an original.
As to printing them in books, yes, I am working on that, but the printed photos would be about 1/3 less in size, as my books are printed in my established portrait format. Due to work and family constraints, the large amount of time necessary for me to prepare the artwork for a book is severely limited, and thus a publication schedule cannot be established. And, to publish a high quality 144-160 page book takes an investment of about $25,000-$35,000 - not a small sum for a very limited market.
Soon, I’ll be offering more sets of beautiful subway, elevated, bus and trolleybus photos - at a very fair and just price.
I don't wish to belabor this discussion any further. Let me close by stating that anything I offer now and in the future is and will always be fairly priced. If one wants a quality product or service, it will always cost a bit more. One of the most established truisms is that you get exactly what you pay for.....
I didnt realize 616 negs were so expensive to print I apoligize
Paul Matus states: “I also have a problem with the fact that you are getting in-copyright photos, so you can do nothing with these photos but frame them or file them away to admire. I don't see any assurance that more sets of these can't be pulled, so you may not be bidding on an item of real scarcity.”
“Joe Saitta has done some awfully nice printed stuff. Since this is copyright material anyway, I'd like to see him publish albums of some of these pictures, so we could all enjoy them at a more reasonable price.”
Paul Matus states that he does not wish to purchase copyrighted photos. This is, of course, his decision. The photos being offered are meant for personal use only, not to be copied or splashed all over the Internet. The person who took these photos has every legal right to protect his creations. If Mr. Matus had taken the these photographs and then saw them offered to the world without some sort of compensation, how would he react? Is not everyone entitled to be rewarded in some way for their efforts?
First of all, Joe, if I wished to flame you as you seem to have me, I would have posted my comments on eBay. I am pleased that you mentioned the copyright issue in your eBay blurb, because in earlier offered photos you had not.
I am a bidder and have been a seller on eBay. I have also written and photographed copyrighted material and wish that to be respected.
eBay is a free market and you are entitled to whatever price you can get. Anyone who thinks your prices are too high does not have to bid.
However, you chose to promote your material on SubTalk, which is an open forum, not a commercial venue. I have no problem with this, either. Only Dave Pirmann, our host, is positioned to judge that.
However, you offer your materials at fairly high prices and I feel that it is reasonable to convey to SubTalkers the fact of what they are receiving for that price. Some fairly scarce and unduplicatable items are offered and go for much less than you are asking.
You are offering these items at auction not for a fixed price. I think it is fair for a person who might bid up the price of these items to understand what he or she is receiving: photo prints for personal use with no guarantee of scarcity. If they still want to bid $65 or higher for this, they are entitled.
I think it is quite unfair for you to imply that I wish to steal anyone's intellectual property.
Paul also notes that more photos could be pulled from the same negatives. This is true, but with more than ten thousand New York City area negatives available, and with this collection about to increase substantially in size through the acquisition of more negatives, it would normally be a long time before the same set were to be offered - and this would probably be at a higher price. These particular photos are not being sold on their rarity but rather their quality. And, suppose the negative collection from which these photos were printed met an unfortunate fate? Copy negatives do not have even the near-quality of an original.
Here now you are disclosing the information that, if it had been placed in your eBay posting, could have cleared up any misunderstanding.
I've purchased your materials (such as your excellent Traction Yearbooks) in the past and feel you are an honest person, and I would certainly encourage anyone who wanted to do so to deal with you. In fact, in an earlier posting on this forum, I provided a link to the 5th Avenue L photos which you did not.
If you wish to use eBay as a venue, and you think $65 is a fair price for the photo set, you might consider offering them in a "dutch auction." In this, you could offer, say, 25 sets at a starting price of $65. Anyone who is interested could bid that amount (or higher) and you wouldn't have to pull the proofs until you knew how many sets people wanted. That way there could be no misunderstanding and I think everyone would be happy all around.
I see in the December 1994 ERA Bulletin a note that states that after service was extended to Lefferts Ave on the Fulton Street el, the street name was changed to Lefferts Boulevard. The trains always displayed Lefferts Ave signs.
If the signs were never changed to Blvd from Ave, perhaps transit maps were never changed either, which has caused some confusion in dating maps.
I have a 1963 subway map which shows the folowing:
a)96 St-Rockaway Blvd
b) 119 St-Lefferts (Liberty)
Question for the Queens folks. Did either Rockaway Blvd or Lefferts Blvd ever carry the numbered signs?
Larry,RedbirdR33
Not to my knowledge.
Speaking of Lefferts, what trains are used for the late night shuttle, how many, and where does it run between?
It uses what the "A" train uses. There are two trains and it operates between Lefferts Blvd. in Queens and Euclid Ave. in Brooklyn.
Even stranger... I have a R-11 front route sign. It has 56 readings in two sections, one IND, One BMT. Get this.... On the IND portion it says "Lefferts Blvd." on the BMT portion it says "Leferts Ave."
I meant Lefferts Ave.
How about somebody going to the Library at 42nd Street and look it up, or the Hall of Records in Queens. There must be someone there who would know
Wow! 56 different signs? That must be one long curtain! I never counted the number of markings on my R-1/9 curtains, but they have around 20, maybe 22. Do you have a list of stations on your curtain?
There Is A Lefferts Ave In Brooklyn 2 Blocks S Of Empire Blvd (Malborne Street)Near Prospect Park. Did the BRT/BMT continue south of prospect park along the Brooklyn & Brighton Beach ROW to lefferts ave Brooklyn (Brooklyn And Brighton Beach RR Had A Station At Lefferts Ave/Ocean Parkway)
I was down in the city today and took a ride on the IRT White Plains Road and Dyre Avenue Lines. The White Plains Rd Line el structure has been rehabilitated and looks great. All the station from 3 Av north to East 180 have been redone and look very nice,also I saw no graffitti.
The station at 3 Av has a bright white and red tiling which really lightens up the place, however it is no longer possible to transfer from the northbound platform to the southbound one. The tunnels which were formerly used to transfer to the 3 Av El also allowed one to cross under from one direction to the other. They have been sealed off and are not visible anymore.
The south building of the old West Farms Bus Depot is still standing although the interior is pretty much gutted. The north building was torn down several years ago.
The Dyre Av Line looks better then it has in years and the southbound express track now runs all the length of the line.It amazing that they were able to build this track without making it look line a war zone as was done on the Sea Beach.
East 180 St maintenance shop has a new facade with two large decal depicting an R-110B.(Yes I said an R-110B.) What a picture of an IND car is doing on an IRT Shop I don't know.
Of course the best part of the ride was Redbirds everywhere, R-26,28,29 and 33's and the #2 and the #5. No Silverbirds in sight.
Yes a very good day.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Although I did not wish to continue this discussion, I believe it is necessary to qualify and clarify a number of items, in order to put them into proper perspective:
First, I wish to sincerely thank Steve L for taking the time and trouble to post that he hadn’t realized printing odd size negatives was more expensive. I appreciate your understanding and the subsequent posting
Then, Paul Matus wrote:
First of all, Joe, if I wished to flame you as you seem to have me, I would have posted my comments on eBay.
Joe responds:
Paul, I fail to see that responding to your comments constitutes a flame. I will never start or continue to flame anyone; it is not my style. We are both discussing issues with regards to my pricing policies, an issue you initially raised on SubTalk. If you feel I am flaming you, which I do not believe I am, then I am man enough to apologize. As you mentioned certain things on SubTalk, it was only my intention in my subsequent posting to clarify my position so that all of SubTalk’s readers could make their own judgments. Explaining is not flaming. You yourself stated I did have good material, and for this I sincerely thank you.
Paul:
However, you chose to promote your material on SubTalk, which is an open forum, not a commercial venue.
Joe:
In my initial SubTalk posting, I merely mentioned that photographs were available. No price or any other words in the SubTalk posting stated that this was a commercial venture. You assumed that in error. These photos were personal property and I made the posting to offer them to anyone interested. Had it been a commercial venture, the wording would have been far different, including descriptions, prices, shipping costs, etc. and certainly more than just one set of photos would have been offered. The offering of these photos and mentioning their availability on eBay on Sub Talk was just a notation and certainly not a commercial promotion. As you realize, I have been involved in commercial ventures and will continue to do so, but it is also my privilege to sell personal property. When the negatives were recently printed for my upcoming book (the book will be a commercial venture), an extra set of photos was made to offer to anyone interested. An attempt was made, as mentioned before, to assist a senior citizen in a very small way with his day-to-day living expenses by offering these photos. I fail to see anything wrong or commercial about that.
Paul:
However, you offer your materials at fairly high prices and I feel that it is reasonable to convey to SubTalkers the fact of what they are receiving for that price.
Joe:
You’ve again stated “high prices.” I’m quite curious to know how you by what standard you have judged these to be high prices, and how you have determined what these photos cost me. Certainly you can inform SubTalkers of what they are receiving for that price, but I do believe you should first also gather facts relating to the cost of the photos and relate them to your posting. Steve L was good enough to offer an apology when I explained the costs to him.
Paul:
Some fairly scarce and unduplicatable items are offered and go for much less than you are asking.
Joe:
This is true, and I have purchased some good bargains myself. But are these scarce and unduplicatable items the exact same as mine? I don’t believe so. Let’s be fair enough to compare apples with apples, not oranges. An item, any item in any category, will be purchased only by someone who really wants it in their possession.
Paul:
You are offering these items at auction not for a fixed price. I think it is fair for a person who might bid up the price of these items to understand what he or she is receiving: photo prints for personal use with no guarantee of scarcity.
Joe:
It is my privilege, as it certainly is yours, to offer any item I own at any price in any way I see fit, be that fixed price or auction. As I currently only have one set available, the auction method appeared to me to be most reasonable, and mentioning it on SubTalk offered an opportunity to give SubTalkers a chance to see if they were interested. eBay does not require any item offered to be scarce or guaranteed rare. Suppose you had two identical books in your personal possession - scarce or not - and decided to offer one on eBay. This is and will always be your privilege. One of the current classic examples of common ordinary items available on eBay in huge numbers are the Corgi PCC cars. If you look at the offerings, most sellers appear to connote that theirs is a very rare item - something they are certainly not!
Paul:
I have also written and photographed copyrighted material and wish that to be respected. I think it is quite unfair for you to imply that I wish to steal anyone's intellectual property.
Joe:
I’m sorry, but I do not see any implication on my part. Could you be kind enough to clarify this? And, as you are the creator of intellectual property, I believe our feelings towards anyone plagiarizing such material are mutual.
Paul:
I've purchased your materials (such as your excellent Traction Yearbooks) in the past and feel you are an honest person, and I would certainly encourage anyone who wanted to do so to deal with you. In fact, in an earlier posting on this forum, I provided a link to the 5th Avenue L photos which you did not.
Joe:
I sincerely thank you for your compliments, and for providing the link (I was not aware of this).
Paul:
If you wish to use eBay as a venue, and you think $65 is a fair price for the photo set, you might consider offering them in a "dutch auction." In this, you could offer, say, 25 sets at a starting price of $65. Anyone who is interested could bid that amount (or higher) and you wouldn't have to pull the proofs until you knew how many sets people wanted. That way there could be no misunderstanding and I think everyone would be happy all around.
Joe:
This is a reasonable and thought-provoking idea, and something worthy of consideration in the future. At the present time, however, my only intention was to offer the extra set that I had printed. Similarly, I will also be offering other sets of personal photos under the same terms and conditions.
I sincerely hope this and the previous postings clear up any misconceptions or misunderstandings.
Back about 6 years ago, when I was taking the train
into the city every day, I noticed that most
of the side route signs on the R62 had a Q inside
of a diamond shape. But every now and then, you
would get a much larger Q inside a circle. I would
look for a car with the large round circular Q, and
try to sit somewhere near it. Whenever I looked up
at it, I got a curiously content feeling. I don't
whether it was because it was different, or just
more pleasant to look at. What would really make my
day was when that nice large Q would be on the front of the lead
car. That was very rare, and when it happened it
made the train very special. Being the quiet type,
except when I'm posting screwy messages here, I
never really asked anyone if the two different
styled Q's had any significance. To me they had a
world of difference
I hated those R-10s that had the white diamond "C" signs too. I tried to stay with the cotton ones when possible
Those are not the R-62! They are the R-68!
I prefer to see the yellow "Q"s as opposed to the more common orange ones, but I'll take a Slant R40 any day.
Wayne
Hi Folks How are you? I just want to know if any one out there has any videos or photos of previous LIRR Fantrips from this decade? Also from the 1980s? (1985-1988)? Your help is greatly appreciated. If any one is going on the ERA Fantrip could someone out there PLEASE bring a VIDEO CAMERA?? I hope we all have a good time. Thank you for your help. Regards.
I'll bring mine....Mark
Last night, I attended one of SEPTA's community meetings about the Market Street El reconstruction set to begin next year.
Station design and safety were big points. Escalators and elevators were discussed at length, as SEPTA has a reputation for having escalators that don't work.
Meetings have been held for 46th, 52nd, 56th and 63rd Street stations. The other two will come later this year.
SEPTA will also correct their token sales problems by having token machines at all the new stations.
One of the biggest concerns was rush-hour traffic flow with the fact that, for safety reasons, there will be only one entrance into the station via the headhouse. On a reply sheet they distributed, I posed the question of using pass-operated faregates a la the "iron maiden" Metrocard turnstiles, so that pass-bearing customers have an alternate entrance.
[ ...I posed the question of using pass-operated faregates a la the "iron maiden" Metrocard turnstiles, so that pass-bearing customers have an alternate entrance. ]
That would be nice, but first SEPTA needs to revamp the pass system, which is almost non-existent compared to New York. The fare structure makes no sense. I commute using the El daily. A monthly pass is $64, while a month's worth of tokens (2 per weekday) costs $46.
Why? I have no idea. I would love to just carry a pass, but instead I have to buy tokens.
You hit the nail on the head. I grew up in South Phila. When I started working, I had to take 2 buses. This cost me a base fare plus transfer for the ride. Back then the pass made sense. The ride was roughly 4 miles each way.
Where I live now (NW), I can take 1 bus to the same building. I pay a base fare. The ride is twice as long. I pay less. I would be nuts to buy a pass unless I know ahead of time that I'll have additional rides to take that week.
Most SEPTA rides involve a transfer and that's the basis of the pass. The pass also works for those living in rail zone 1 since it can be used on Regional Rail at all times. As luck would have it, I'm in rail zone 2. Go figure!
Are 69th and Millbourne (the other two) slated for reconstruction as part of this project. I thought Millbourne was seperate, and I didn't hear anything about 69th
Millbourne is included in the project but 69th Street Terminal is not. Each station area is supposed to take around a year to complete and Millbourne will be the last station to be repaired.
There will be a community meeting held there some time in the near future. Since I get the details of where/when before the rest of the public, I can pass that information on in a timely fashion.
Repaired, yeah, that's the ticket. Like the Spring Garden Spur
station or the Chestnut Hill Trolley line. Yeah, the station will
never be seen by the public in the condition it is now, yeah, that's
it. (Whenever Septa makes any kind of announcement, I keep seeing
those Joe Isuzu-style subtitles, ie "He's lying" :)
Millbourne has become quite an active place since the opening of the cheap commuter parking in the former Sears lot. At one time its fortunes didn't look so great. I think now things are much different.
Yesterday, I got a mailed response about my comment for using pass-operated "iron maiden" turnstiles for the new stations.
The letter was basic B.S. They said that they were considering the option and appreciated my suggestion.
The idea would be good as there will be one entrance usually on the south side of Market Street. With the turnstiles, passengers have alternate entrances/exits and don't have to cross Market(which can be life-threatening at rush hour).
This is a follow up of Steve's recent post.
1. Tchhhh-ssss is the English equivalent of one of
the R1/9's breathing noises which were heard when the
train was braking. Question: Was it the result of the
brakes being applied or released?
2. Steve mentioned that he sometimes heard this
same sound right after the doors had closed and
before the train lurched into the darkness. Steve
thought that this might have been an accidental
applicaion of the brakes, and I always imagined that
the motorman had kept the brakes applied in the
station perhaps to keep it from rolling, and then
had to released them before applying power. Funny
as I write this, I wonder if the lurching might have
come from applying power before the brakes fully
released.
3. Most of the R1/9s had a very noticeable air
sound when the doors opened and closed. Yet some of
them didn't. Did some of the cars use a purely
electric motor to open the doors?
I would appreciate any not too technical answer,
that just explains how the sounds originated. Until
then, tchhhh-ssss
tcch-sss is a sound made by the electric brake, which contrary
to its name is just an electrical trainline that applies and
releases the air brakes. The sound is made when the brake handle
is moved out of the release position.
The sigh or puff of air when the doors close is the sound of the
load weight measuring device reseting. A similar sound was made
by SMEEs, although today only the Corona 33/36 fleet still has this.
All R1-9 cars used air operated doors. There were no electrically
powered doors except perhaps as an oddball experiment in a few cars
for a few years.
Lurching when the train first takes power was the result of mixing
General Electric and Westinghouse equipped cars in the same train.
They have slightly different responses and therefore some cars are
taking power while others have not yet started.
Thanks Jeff for the information. Your 3rd and 4th paragraphs I understand.
The brake handle in the motorman's cab controlled an electrical valve. It was not an air valve. Okay, I follow that. You say the noise was made when the handle is moved out of the release position. I have a full size motorman's compartment made out of parts from the R9's. If the train was taking full power, what position would you call that on the brake handle. Is that release, when the brakes are released? I'm lost. What causes the brake shoes to press against the surface of the wheels?
Then as far as the sound of air when the doors close as being the sound of the load weight measuring device resetting. Load weight measuring device makes me think of something that measured the weight of the passengers in the train and adjusted some other response of the train. What does a load measuring device have to do with the doors?
Did you ever notice a difference in the sound of the way the doors operated in the fleet of R1 through R9 cars?
I appreciate your help. Paul
I could hear the difference on the tape. The doors R-7s and R-9s which went to the Eastern Division sounded distinctly different from the doors on the R-1s and R-4s. On the former, it's more of an "awwrrrr", while on the latter, based on personal recollection, it wasn't as loud, even on the tape, and the best way to describe it would be like shaking a sheet of construction paper. In the early 70s, CC service was held down by R-4s (you didn't mention the timeframe of those recordings).
I should also point out that I am a college-trained musician with, as I like to say, overdeveloped ears, and can hear nuances readily. Not to mention anything out of tune, such as R-46 door chimes.
The load wiegh valve mentioned was actually a variable load valve which was utilized on R-10 through R-36 cars with the A-1 operating unit. The puff of air heard inside the car after the doors closed and locked might have been the compressor governors which were located inside the car's interior. The Tss-Chhhh sound occured upon actuating the release magnet valves as having operated them they did not make that sound in lap or electric holding. You could make that sound in varying degrees of decibles by moving the handle from electric holding to release and back again to soften the stop. As a kid I always heard an R-1/4/6 car with the standard National Pneumatic door engines also found on R-10s. If the sound of the engines were different it probably was a choke installed to prevent the doors from flying open too fast, as I have heard car inspectors at Pitkin in the past talking about methods of controlling the door speeds on R-10 cars.
As I recall, the door speed was the same on all R-1/9s. Faster than, say, the R-32s, but not as fast as the R-10s, which had the fastest doors in New York. The sound was different on the R-7s and R-9s than the R-1s and R-4s. I can't remember where the R-6s fell in. There was a Saturday sometime in 1969-70 when I was able to sample both sounds. That morning, we took our usual LL train to Lorimer St. on a train of R-7/9s. The doors gave off an "awwwwrr" sound. Later that afternoon, we got a D train of R-4s at 34th St., and I had time to stay on it for a headlight-less dash up CPW. This time, the doors sounded like a sheet of construction paper being shaken. That was the last prewar D train I ever took, and when it came time to get off at 125th St., I did so very reluctantly. Believe me, I would have gladly ridden on that train all the back to Coney Island and then some.
Once in a while, a BMT standard would have an improperly adjusted door leaf which would whip open and slam shut, bouncing off the center post. Otherwise, the doors on the standards opened and closed very smoothly and quietly. Speaking of the BMT standards, didn't they also have a load sensing valve? I think Subway Cars of the BMT mentions this.
IIRC, the load sensing valve gave off a short, high-pitched beep, around F# above the treble staff, on SMEE cars, R-10s included.
Another thing I noticed different on different models of those trains was a rectangular niche on the outside of the doors under the door window that were on some cars and not others on the R1-9. The R1 didn't have them, the R9 did.
If that's what I think you mean Sarge, wasn't that to help people hang on if they were riding outside on the door sill?
Maybe so, but I know I used to be tempted to grab hold and try to pry those doors open. I couldn't WAIT to hop aboard!
Well, you didn't want technical, but you're gonna get it!
The motorman's brake valve (ME23) has both an air portion and
an electric portion. The air portion functions like a traditional
railroad "automatic" air brake. In the release position, it maintains
70 psi of air pressure in the train line brake pipe. Any decrease
in pressure below that causes air to flow, on each car, into
the brake cylinder which applies the brake shoes. Making a service
application requires moving the handle from release (which is
fully clockwise and parallel to the front window), through handle
off, into service. In service, the brake pipe is bled and the
brakes come on. To release the brakes, the handle is moved back
to release and air is charged back into the brake pipe. As the
brake pipe pressure rises, air is released from the brake cylinders.
It takes a long time for the air pressure change to make it
through the train. The electric brake speeds this up. On the R1-9s,
it is activated by sticking a plug with a copper ring on the end
of it into a round receptacle which is above the master controller.
There are contacts on the ME23 brake valve which make up at certain
positions. When the handle is moved counter-clockwise out of release,
it goes past a position called electric holding, which is 1/2 way
between release and handle-off. This energizes magnet valves on
every car of the train and causes the tssschh-ssssss sound.
Then you keep on going to service. The brake valve operates on air,
reducing brake pipe pressure, but it doesn't matter, because the
electric brake overrides. When you reach service, the apply magnet
valves admit air directly to the brake cylinder, bypassing the
pneumatic portion. When operating on electric brake, you lap
off the brakes by going all the way back to electric holding,
which pneumatically acts like release and charges the brake pipe,
but the electric portion overrides and prevents the release, holding
the application, thus the name "electric holding".
The variable load mechanism, aka the empty and load valve, is an
arm that measures the deflection of the bolster springs. This
provides an indication of how heavy the car is. The braking
pressures and motoring currents are adjusted accordingly to provide
uniform acceleration and braking rates regardless of load.
Because the trucks bounce around a lot when the car is moving, this
measurement of load is only performed when the side doors are open.
The presumption is that the train isn't moving then :) (Well, I've
seen a lot of recent examples to the contrary, but nevermind that)
On the R1-9s, there is a magnet valve which is located under
the first cross seat on the off side of the #2 cab. It is hooked
up to the guard light circuit. When the side doors close, the
magnet valve de-energizes and the load measurement is locked-in
until the doors open again. On the SMEEs the variable load
valve is hooked into the #24 wire conductor's indication circuit,
I think, because you don't hear that sigh until all of the doors
on the train have closed. In fact, if you were sitting in a station
and the conductor was having problems getting the doors closed,
you could tell when at least your zone was good by that sound.
Wow... That thread of events was a little like the Twelve Days of Christmas... Parts of it I could follow. I think the Transit Museum at one point had a brake stand and had a little exhibit showing what was happening. I have to read over the interrelationship between the air and electric brake operation. Your explanations were clearer, but I don't have the overall picture yet, or perhaps, with my head, ever.
Jeff, am I hearing you right in your saying that the air sounds on the doors occur only when the doors close. Because there were air sounds upon opening and closing. I have a tape I made from maybe more than 30 years ago, of the 9's on the LL and CC. Steve has a copy also, and I think we are both hearing regular air sounds as part of the doors opening that if my actual experiences in the cars came from all the door locations.
Whatever the origin of the door sounds and air brake sounds, from my observations of passengers back then whether they were young or old, male or female, black or white, sane or insane ---all conversations,fights, ravings of lost souls would cease as a train came into a station so that they could all savor the pleasure of 9's coming to a stop. I think all who rode the 9's would concur.
All of which leads me to ask all your support in petitioning the MTA to place an order for 1700 odd cars from ACF, Pressed Steel, and Pullman Standard of the venerable R1/9 series. Bring these industrial giants back to life. Bring work back to our rust bucket of a country. Bring peace and harmony back to all New Yorkers.
The door sounds I was describing occur after all of the doors
are closed and resemble a sigh. That's the variable load valve
kicking in. Yes, since these are air doors, there are air sounds
when the doors open and close. The opening sound is a slow exhaust
of air, while the closing sound is shorter and sharper.
As for riding an R-9 today, I can only think of two places
in this country that you can do that, and neither of them are New York.
I may be way off the mark here, and if so, I stand corrected.
The way I understand it, each R-1/9 and R-10 door leaf had a pneumatic piston, similar to a storm door of a house. With the doors closed, the pneumatic chamber would be "inflated", so to speak, and this air pressure would push the piston outwards. When the conductor released the triggers, an exhaust valve would open, evacuating the pneumatic chambers and causing the pistons to retract, thus causing the doors to open. I presume the pistons or door leaves themselves were spring-loaded or had some conteracting means. Pushing the trigger caps down released the triggers, forcing air into each pneumatic chamber which pushed against the pistons and causing the doors to close. The Transit Museum has a model of the R-10 door mechanism, with various solenoids, valves, and the like.
I'm not an engineer, so please forgive me if I'm completely wrong here.
Your (Steve B) description of the air doors is basically correct.
The doors are operated by a double-sided piston. There are two
magnet valves (electrically operated air valves) connected to
either side of the piston, which slides in a tube and which is
attached to the door rods. Each magnet valve can connect its
side of the chamber either to the 70 psi air supply or to exhaust.
There are no spring returns. The doors are driven either to open
or close by air pressure. With no air in the system, or with the
emergency door release handle pulled, the doors can be moved back
and forth by hand.
The conductor's controls are electric switches, not pneumatic.
They sure look like air runs through them, but that's not the
case. They activate the train line electric wires which in
turn operate the magnet valves on the doors.
Thanks for the clarification. Now that you mention it, you can see solenoids turning on and off when you work the triggers on the model at the Transit Museum. I must say the triggers on 100 and 484 are a tad stiff, but that's probably because they're hardly ever used anymore. OK, so I can't resist giving those triggers and caps a once-over when I'm there - those door controls are simply fascinating!
The A magnet admits air directly to the brake cylinder? I thought it vented brake pipe locally. Like on Comet's and Arrow's. AMUE is not my strong suit. Too ancient for me.
The A magnet admits air directly to the brake cylinder? I thought it vented brake pipe locally
No, that would make way too much sense! On AMUE the A magnet valve
applies feed valve air (70 psi) directly to the brake cylinder,
or more precisely, to the volume reservoir which in turn is relayed
to the brake cylinder via the variable load valve. The R magnet
valve remains energized in all positions except RELEASE. When
energized, it connects the brake cylinder/volume reservoir to the
electric portion of the UE-5. When de-energized, it reverts to
the pneumatic portion.
You know, looking back on the work of those fellows 80
years ago, it would make sense. With one body mounted
brake cylinder, a quick acting charging device for that
vast amount of air would be good. Today's smaller
cylinders in multple fill faster. It's amazing but they
are finnaly using them on freight cars now.
So when operating pnumatic only does AMUE function the way
normal control valves do?
And what happens to the control valve if the BC is charged
by the A magnet? Where does the aux.res air go? Forgive me
if I compare the braking to AB/ABD/ABDW/ADWX etc. The stuff on freight cars is what I have as a frame of reference on brake pipe systems. Comets function essentially the same way, so although the R1-9 cars were gone before my time had always assumed they were the same.
The R magnet, or holding magnet, is the only thing keeping the system from being direct release. Like Comets. But Comets don't have compressors, the MR charges the BP locally to release, and a holding magnet allows gradation.
Mike and Randy are working on the R-4, so I don't need to know this, but I'm curious.
The UE-5 is one of the most complicated and kluged-up pieces
of braking equipment out there. In a nutshell, it is a quick-acting
triple valve (aka control valve) with graduated release and
supplementary reservoir for quick recharge and higher emergency
pressures on the pneumatic side.
When running in electric brake mode, the Release magnet valve
is energized (except, ironically enough, in the Release position
of the ME-23). This operates a relay valve inside the UE-5
which cuts off the Volume Reservoir exhaust (the Volume Reservoir
is either the brake cylinder itself, or a chamber with an equal
volume which in turn is relayed to the brake cylinder via the
variable load, if equipped). So, pneumatically, the UE-5 wants
to release, but the Release magnet valve prevents this. It also
connects the volume reservoir to the Service (Apply) magnet valve.
With the brake handle in Service, the Service magnet valve causes
Auxilliary Reservoir air to flow into the Volume Reservoir and
the brakes apply. Brake pipe air is also drawn, via a check valve,
into the Volume Res. So, during electric service, the BP and AR
pressures remain roughly balanced. If the electric portion were
to fail, the ME-23 is also exhausting BP air in Service, and
therefore BP air will fall below the AR and the UE-5 will apply
pneumatically.
In the release position, both Release and Service magnet valves
are de-energized. As the ME-23 is adding air to the BP, the UE-5
pneumatically releases. In this mode, Supplementary Reservoir air
also flows into the Auxilliary Reservoir to effect a rapid recharge.
This is common on Rapid Transit braking systems but not too popular
on freight systems, where after a brake application and release, it
is going to be a while before you can get another nip!
You're right about the time lag on freight brakes if you kick off, and go for a second nip. We were trained to brake with the throttle open and close it to adjust where we stop. Short: more throttle, far: less. The whole time you leave a ten or twelve Lb. reduction. We were taught if you needed more than 14, you didn't have control of your train. 26, and you had better have a good reason! Ie: conductor's long buzz.
You say the UE-5 had a graduated release? In pnumatic only as well as in EP?
It's a direct release in pneumatic on the MP-54s. You need electric to get graduated. There's a thing on there that sets between direct and granduated. I'm not sure WHY the PRR went with direct pneumatic, though in gather it was to retain compatibility with steam hauled trains (the book I have explains how to hook everything up for steam)
>We were trained to brake with the throttle open and close it to
>adjust where we stop. Short: more throttle, far: less.
Shouldn't that be the other way around?
Phil, How else would you correct for stopping distance
errors? The brakes cannot be fanned. You take what you
get. If you took too big a reduction, leave the throttle
open longer. Take too little? Take a nip more. Ooops! Too
much! You cannot kick off the brakes and try again. There
won't be anything there for at least a minute while they
recharge. And when you do get that second application.it
won't be as powerful as the first fully charged one was.
So leave em on. And open the throttle more. If you get too
much, then close the throttle some. But always keep
tension on the couplers to hold the slack taut! The cars stop the engines. Heck, lite engines have speed restrictions on em. I could do 70 with cars, but only 40 with an engine. They're so heavy that the brakes aren't too effective. A GP38-2 laughes at you when you try and stop her. So the cars do the work. Of course empties stop better than loads. If you
let the engine(s) roll free or God forbid, forget to bail
off and have an independent application. Be prepared for a
good kick in the ass! Or worse with a lot of cars, you could derail. Tank cars were always fun. The slosh effect would kick you no matter what. A good conductor would try and put them at the hind end.
Runing that stuff is for pros, and I have yet to see a TA train operator who understood that. Maybe 5 guys in all of TA. 3 operate freight for the Army Reserve and one a Motor Instructor. One other is the former Supt of work trains. And of course Harry, through his training at NJT.
Ok, I re-read what you had written before, and it now makes sense.
9/25/99
Another thing about R1-9 braking sounds. The two part release sound is similar to the D-Types. Ever notice when after the 2nd of the two part release sound is heard,the D-Type trails off quicker while the R1-9's "simmer" a little longer.
Bill Newkirk
trained to brake with the throttle open and close it to adjust where we stop. Short: more throttle, far:
less. The whole time you leave a ten or twelve Lb. reduction. We were taught if you needed more than 14, you didn't have control of your train. 26, and you had better have a good reason!
As Phil pointed out, I think you have the power-brake equation
reversed. Throttle up works well to graduate braking, and it also
has the fringe benefit of drafting out the slack between cars
so you can start up again.
The UE-5 has a graduated/direct release cap which allows it to be
set up either way. As used in the NYC transit system, it was set
for graduated. AMUE is a fairly complex and cumbersome system, and
in many ways SMEE was a great improvement. However, AMUE has
all sorts of features to make it responsive in pneumatic-only mode,
whereas SMEE is a real poor performer once you drop the B2.
AMUE is a fairly complex and cumbersome system, and in many ways SMEE was a great improvement. However, AMUE has all sorts of features to make it responsive in pneumatic-only mode, whereas SMEE is a real poor performer once you drop the B2.
Why are hybrid electric-pneumatic controlled brakes still used on subways, anyway? It seems to me that better characteristics could be obtained using a fully electric control system. One magnet valve (spring-loaded to be open without power) to admit air to the brake cylinders, one magnet valve (spring-loaded to close without power) to exaust the brake cylinders to the atmosphere. Naturally, the load sensing equipment, reservoirs and compressors would need to be retained, but my system seems to be far less complicated, without compromising safety.
They tried that type of analog electronically-controlled pneumatic
braking system. It was called P-wire. We all know how that turned
out, at least for the TA (the LIRR and MNCRR seemed to get it to
work). But you're not far off. The big railroads are starting to
adopt digital electronically controlled brakes...there's even an
AAR standard for the trainline connector. And of course, the
R110 and 142/143 cars use it (although they are not compatible with
the AAR standard).
You're right about the time lag on freight brakes if you kick off, and go for a second nip. We were trained to brake with the throttle open and close it to adjust where we stop. Short: more throttle, far: less. The whole time you leave a ten or twelve Lb. reduction. We were taught if you needed more than 14, you didn't have control of your train. 26, and you had better have a good reason! Ie: conductor's long buzz. I got pretty good at it, and could stop a 50 car train with a minimum reduction, 5-7 Lbs. The more cars the less brake I needed. That stone train on the other hand........
You say the UE-5 had a graduated release? In pnumatic only as well as in EP? That would make life easy if the EP failed.
An earlier thread stated that the F train to Manhattan will go through the Jamacia yard with passengers this comming weekend. If they are replacing a switch at Continental Ave., why does the train have to go through the yard? I was looking at the track maps, and see no reason for this. If it does I might take a ride for fun!
No, no. You have it wrong. Bill from Maspeth meant that E trains from Jamaica Center were terminating at Van Wyck Blvd and going into Jamaica Yard to turn around and go back to Parsons/Archer.
There are no trains carrying passengers through Jamaica Yard. Actually the switch work is south of Continental Av between the Manhattan Bound Exp and Local tracks. As a result, F trains will be required to come into Continental Av, another Train Operator comes aboard and takes the train in the opposite direction and crosses over to the Queensbound Track. Now on the Queens Bound track, the train is ready to proceed south on Queens Bound track to Roosevelt Av where it will cross back over to the Manhattan Bound track. Note: F trains run every 12 minutes in Queens, with no stops in either direction from Roosevelt to Continental Avs due to crowd control concerns.
Note that the F that proceeds to Manhattan from Continental Av is travelling on the Queens Bound Express Track.
E trains will turn back in the yard lead to Jamaica yd to go back to Parsons. They will not actually go into the yard.
I considered riding one of those F trains just to see the confused, dazed passangers as an inaudible annoucment explained why the doors weren't opening and then why the train was moving BACKWARDS.
Unfortunately I won't have the time.
Yeah, I was thinking about that too. I might be in Jamaica over the weekend... How often do you take a ride in the wrong direction? I've done it numerous times as the #2 train had to detour around a work area at 149th St and 3rd Av. Unfortunately, passnegers still get confused (or angry) even if you tell them that the train has to move back a short distance to get around a work area.
I can recall of a case sometime back (a few months ago) on a downtown 2 that was held up by unruly passengers on the el at Jackson Av as the train was due to relay back into Prospect middle to head downtown by the Bronx Bound Track. Inconvenience? Maybe, but at least it beats going uptown to catch a downtown train going express.
Do passengers get the big picture, even if the Conductor makes the appropriate announcements?
-Stef
NO, they don't. As has been said many times before on this site, the majority of passengers are dumber than sheep, at least when it comes to understanding announcements.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yeh but I had a conductor on the 4 Train who couldn t even pronounce the numbered streets let alone anything with a name.
A few weeks ago, I was taking care of a T.T. on the "B" shuttle,21st street to 57 & 7th. I rode the train for four trips. At 57&7th, the c/r would say "This is the last stop, this train is going back to Queens,please change trains for downtown and Brooklyn." Do you know, a good number of people, stayed on that train ...for the four trips. I think some may still be on it.
Before the TA had split D weekend/midnite hour service for Manhattan Bridge closures, the trains used to have to change direction at Essex St. to go via the Montague St. tube. In Brooklyn bound direction, passengers who would get on in the first car who would want to get off at Church Ave., for example, were pretty pissed off when they wound up in the last car!.......I assumed wrong, and yes, I do know what happens when one assumes! The posters/brochures/general order was last weekend Sat. 9:30PM to Sun. 1:30 PM and all this weekend from Sat. 1AM till Mon. 5AM. So, I assumed all work would be completed by now and have the concrete pour this weekend. NO! They are not ready to pour concrete. Hopefully, all the hardware will be installed this weekend, but the TA will have to come out with another issue of posters/brochures/general order in the near future because the work will not be completed by Monday.
Can you imagine what it would be like if those lovable, venerable R-1/9s were still around, especially since they didn't have PA systems?
Except for 484 (?) at the Transit Museum. It had an experimental P.A. system.
Yep, it sure did. Not to mention PCC-style bullet lighting.
R1-9 car #484 had the experimental P.A. system, right? How did they ever use it? It was only 1 car coupled to a bunch of cars with NO P.A. system. And besides, the conductor was too busy climbing up and down in between 2 cars on those trains to make announcements.
Weren't there PA systems on the R10? If there were I never heard a single announcement, becuase of the ear-shattering din caused by the R10.
9/29/99
Along with #484 , #744 was the other car fitted with the experimental PA system. #744 also had bullseye lighting too.
Bill Newkirk
I'm not sure if the mikes were on the outside of the car or in the cab. At one time, conductors made announcements after the train had started up and was moving.
The R-10s did receive PA systems, but by then they were no longer dominating the A line. I remember hearing announcements when they ran on the CC.
While it's true the R-10s weren't exactly quiet, and some of them were painfully loud near the end, they weren't so bad during their heyday on the A. I rode on them many times on express jaunts up CPW, and never had to hold my ears. Back then, they made more noise when they thundered past you at a local stop than when you were actually riding in them.
maybe they'll realize that a train can go in both directions! what a revelation!
Remember that memorable exchange in the original Pelham right after the first car was cut from the rest of the train?
Carmody: What was that?
Brown: What was what?
Carmody: I didn't know these things went backwards.
Brown: Now you know.
First interesting sighting was at Hoyt-Schermerhorn where I saw many of the wall tiles (black w/white lettering) covered over with "Wall Street". Obviously there is going to be some filming there shortly (if it hasn't happanned already). The covered over tiling was only evident on the western-most end of the southbound station.
The second event was a train of NY & A freight that I spied out the front of a slant R-40 as we pulled into Sutter Ave. on the Canarsie L. They were running a duet of diesels (in full NY&A green paint) pulling a consist of some of the box cars and tankers that the Waterfront Railway group saw over at the NYCH yard on Saturday.
The train was heading north toward Bushwick.
Doug aka BMTman
Chances are they may be filming through a car window towards the wall. Otherwise, they'd go all out and cover the station signs above the platforms a la Nighthawks and The Warriors.
NYPress came out with its annual "Best of Manhattan" issue yesterday. Through a little semantic wrangling, they were able to come up with some "worsts" as well - "Best deli to avoid," that sort of stuff. Anyway, they gave Delancy Street on the F the award for Manhattan's smelliest station. Its aroma was likened to that of a rotting cow's carcass.
While I've never noticed anything particularly odorific about Delancy Street, I've only been there (in the sense of waiting on the platforms) maybe three or four times, and not at all within the last couple years. Is NYPress' description accurate?
I can't comment on Delancey Street -- I've only been there a handful of times with no specific memories, either. But I think Honorable Mention has to go to the Hoboken PATH station -- particularly the entrance from the NJT train station. This entrance had the horrible sulphur/rotten egg smell for years in the 80's and early 90's. I haven't been there in a couple of years, so I don't know if it's still just as bad.
CTG
I like the smell on PATH and at Hoboken. It reminds of the Lexington Avenue Line and the smell of kerosol.
Maybe they need to market this smell in spray bottle!!! This could be a little silly.
Hoboken still stinks.
Speaking of odors, I was once on an NJT train from Newark-Penn to Madison Square Garbage, just for fun, I'll never use that station until it's demolished as it should have been when it was regurgitated by a few "architects" with cranial space to rent. Anyway, back to my point, I found a rather uncomfortable smell in the car (yet I didn't move to another car, I guess I had a good seat). Today at Grand Central (a REAL terminal). I found the same smell wafting in (or more properly, out) from some of the trains. What is this? I don't know how to describe it, but it's not too uncomfortable.
I don't think so. Delancy may not be the best smelling station, but the last time I was at Broadway-Lafayette I thought I needed a gas mask!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How about the 1st Ave Exit Side of the 2nd Ave F Station at Houston St
Maybe we can just generalize it to say the F in Lower Manhattan wins the awards for having the smelliest stations on its line.
East Broadway has some awfully SOUR smelling stuff which sits in stagnant pools in the trackbeds. It's enough to gag a goat.
Wayne
Probably runoff from streets above where fish markets rinse off.
IN ATLANTA GEORGIA ON THE MARTA NOTH SOUTH LINE
''' PEECHTREE CENTER ''' the deepest station also
SMELLED FUNNY !!!!!!!!!!
later it was found to be a polluted natural WELL !!!!
[IN ATLANTA GEORGIA ON THE MARTA NOTH SOUTH LINE
''' PEECHTREE CENTER ''' the deepest station also
SMELLED FUNNY !!!!!!!!!!
later it was found to be a polluted natural WELL !!!!]
It is spelled Peachtree Center and was originally known as Cain Street Station before it was built. It doesn't smell and the veins of Stone Mountain reside in this station and it is the deepest, 120 feet. It was built deep to avoid disruption to the businesses in downtown Atlanta. Peachtree Center was bypassed on NR track with double direction running to allow the finishing contractor to complete the station. Yours truly did the train control changes at this station and Garnett interlocking to allow for this operation.
I enjoy the 2 lb Hebrew National Salami.
thansk for the info on Peachtree center. Was it built as a bored tunnel. What is the highest station on the system. Do the trains on the bankhead spur operate on the same level whent hey enter the main east west line (Ashby??) or are they on a lowert level;- if so how deep is the lower level
For the Subway-Buff, King Memorial is the highest station. There are two levels at Ashby in the Subway. The upper lever are for moves to Bankhead and the lower level is for moves from Bankhead. Bankhead is a two car station, 150 foot long platform that can be expanded to four cars. It has single turnback track beyond the station which will accommodate a two car train in storage and two car turnback operation at the same time. I personnally designed the signaling there and at Ashby. Nowadays, the Bankhead trains go to Candler Park to turnback in the TB track.
Why is the Bankhead Line just two cars while the rest of the system handles 8 cars. Do you know how high King Memorial is? hwo deep is the lower level of Ashby.
Please e-mail me off site to discuss more of MARTA
The height and depth I will have to check for you. Why, why and why is a two car station used at Bankhead? A deal to get MARTA voted in was that a station was to be Bankhead. To fulfill that promise, MARTA had to build a line to Bankhead. In order to save money and because the patronage would be very low a two car station was build. In fact we cheapened the train control features at Bankhead. Only one Georgia power feeder at that location for example. Single track turnback was another.
You should see the little two car train operating on the East-West line when crowds from the Georgia Dome, new Phillips Arena and World Congress Center. They are try to get on the little two car train. Marta only operates four cars during the week on all lines except Bankhead. BTW, Omni-Dome-World Congress Center is station is misnamed. The Omni was imploded and doesn't exist.
If I recall, there is supposed to be another station-- Perry Homes I think?
MARTA's web page is nice--I enjoy the design and build views of Sandy Springs and North Springs--it will be nice to see the end (I hope) of the 5 Sandy Springs Bus-- It is torture to ride==even after they moved it to the Buckhead Station-- Has MARTA thought of Arics on that line until the rail is done?
Deja Vue-- I remember when it ran all the way downtown with the first stop at Buckhead on Roswell Rd.
No Perry Holmes station and no plans for it.
For many years, the Main Street terminal had that problem. Surprisingly, in this, the hottest summer in memory, it wasn't too bad. Could it be that Flushing merchants stopped dumping their garbage in the sewers?
Worst stench I ever came across is at the south end of the IRT 7th Avenue Chambers Street station; it is a most putrid aroma, which I will not describe further for fear of nauseating others.
The crossunder at Broadway Junction south end of the station (the one made out of corrugated metal) is nothing more than a urinal.
Wayne
Speaking of one of my favorite topics--Disgusting
Smells-- I would like to offer two entries. Years ago, the North end of Atlantic Avenue on the Brighton Line used to really smell pretty gamey. I don't notice it as much now.
But I have a site that ranks with the rankest. On the weekends I usually take my bike into the city on the D and get off at 34th. As I am rapidly advancing into old age and senility, I take the elevator up from the station. Even when that car has been cleaned, it has a horrible smell. And just last week-end there was somewhat solid evidence on the floor for what makes that elevator far from an uplifting experience. I opted for escalators a little further south. I feel sorry for the guys who have to clean that elevator. I guess if you had a video camera, you could stand by the exit of the elevator on the street and capture some interesting expressions on the people who have unwittingly used that elevator.
The worst funk I ever smelled was at the south end of the unused express platform at Canal St. on the BMT. A wonderfully powerful mixture of vomit, decay and excrement. I actually started running to get away from it. I have not used Canal St. to transfer from trains since.
The maze of staircases at the East Side IRT station at Grand Central that leads to the #7 train almost always reeks from urine, or the solution used to eradicate it.
Call me nuts, but I could swear that 59th/Lex lower level smells like powdered doughnuts! As I remember, my mother used to patronize a bakery(?) on the uptown local platform; maybe the smells penetrated to the lower level.
Check out Willets Point/Shea Stadium when Flushing Creek is at low tide. CHOKE-GAG-RETCH! Makes Hoboken smell like a perfume department.
The same can be said about the Mets being swept by the Braves.
That s ok, rember what was it in 88 when the Mets beat the Dodgers during the season what 13 out of 14, and then the Dodgers beat the Mets in the Playoffs. Could happen that the Mets will beat the Braves in the Playoffs. COULD STILL HAPPEN
Considering the way the Braves fold in the post-season, it could happen. They were bounced from the playoffs in 97 and 98 by the Marlins and Padres, respectively. The Mets are probably better than those 2 teams.
Lifelong subfan and Met fan
After this weekend, my vote goes to Willets Point. That stench is not from the station itself, but from Shea Stadium. Until the Mets figure out how to handle the Braves, they're not going anywhere. This tailspin rivals that of the '64 Phillies.
This isn't the first time the Mets have flushed their season down the toilet in September. What can you say about a team which plays its home games in Flushing?
Steve: Come on, it's bad enough that it's Monday but do you have to ruin it completely by dredging up what Valentine and Co. did to us the past week. Talk about a choke-up. I think even Willets Point, if it could talk, would be embarrassed. I'm catching hell out here because of the Mets' folderoo. If you honestly want to know what station is the worst for me it's 95th Street on the R line. The place is a Turkish bath. The heat is oppressive and the air is dank smelling. I did say, however, that there was a saving grace. Climbing up the stairs I ran into a Baskin-Robbins. It made me forget that I had to descend back into the station for the trip back to my hotel in Queens.
According to NYCT Publication here is the list of IRT Master Twoers:
Westchester Avenue-6, New Lots Yard, Utica Avenue, Nevins, Grand Central, 149 Grand Concourse,. Moshulu Yard, Van Cortlandt, 111th St-Main Street. In addition under construction is Unionport which will conytol 2/5 from 149 to White Plains/241.
You forgot Times Square on the Flushing Line and Times Square on the 7th Avenue IRT. Maybe Bowling Green.
I copied the list from an official employee newsletter. Thanks for the info.
Bowling Green is not a master tower. Nevins Tower controls the Bowling Green area.
Just so No one gets messed up Bowling Green does have a Model Board were they can control the area if they have to. But When I worked the No.5 Line 2 Years ago I was in B Loop awaiting a line up. Bowling Green got on the radio to Nevins to give me a line up.
I'm sure some of the Philadelphians who post on this board can help me with this one:
On my upcoming vacation the week of October 4-8, I'm planning a day trip to cover the R2 Warminster, R8 Fox Chase, and Routes 100, 101 and 102 with connections either via Market-Frankford, R3 Elywn or M6 Norristown. This depends on the schedules. I figure if I drive down from Queens leaving at 5:30 a.m. and park at Warminster, I should be able to do it all by evening rush hour. To take NJT and the R7 to Center City for connections would be too time-consuming.
My question is, the SEPTA website states the $5.00 Daypass is good on all City routes and one trip on Regional Rail. Can I use this pass on the light rail routes out of 69th Street? Will it work to or from Warminster? If the Daypass is no good, do Routes 100-102 take tokens? Can I use the forty-cent transfer to go between Route 100 and 101/102 at 69th Street, or between the MFL and light rail?
I see they're doing midday track work on the Warminster line that's scheduled to end Monday, October 4. I can't help but wonder if this work will end on time, what with possible damage from Floyd. It looks like Warminster is about a ninety-minute drive from NYC in the dawn hours; I once made it to Doylestown in about that time and that involved a very slow trek on Route 202 from Somerville. Hope the parking at the station is good.
Warminster and Fox Chase are the only two Regional Rail lines I haven't been on, and I was on the light rail back in 1992 before the new cars were delivered. This should be a very interesting trip if I can coordinate schedules and don't have to lug a whole bunch of quarters.
Any information would be greatly appreciated.
Too bad there's no way to get to and from Newark, Delaware by train without a long layover. I did Wilmington once, and the station appeared to be in the most dangerous part of town.
The SEPTA daypass is only good once on the regional rail and between zones C and 1 anytime, use it for the most expensive trip. It is good on the MFL, but NOT on the 100, 101, and 102 (because they are suburban routes, not city routes).
The DayPass is only valid for a one-way trip on the R1 Airport( this, obviously for tourists) because most visitors to town aren't going to be riding the other RR lines even though SEPTA seems to advocate them more than the city subway/trolley lines. So it wontwork to Warminster.
As for the Suburban Light Rail, I know they take passes, but I'm not sure about tokens and transfers. But I don't trust tokens on those routes.
Tokens are good on both City and Suburban (including Frontier and "Victory" divisions). These lines also have transfers which can be used between them. The wrinkle comes with Regional Rail where neither tokens nor transfers are accepted.
The DayPass is only good on the City Division and for one ride on R1. You will find many operators confused about the DayPass since they see them so infrequently. When I've purchased these, I usually need to give the operator on my route a little advice on how it's to be used. When you first use it, you present it to the operator in its small folder. The op is supposed to tear a transfer and stick the adhesive part of the DayPass to the transfer (which effectively dates it). You may need to help the op here.
If my memory is right, Breda 3000 series are from 3000 to 3289. Recently I saw a trainset consist of 3290 and 3291. Is this trainset renumbered? If so, from what numbers?
BTW, I like the large buzzing sound of Breda 3000 series.
Chaohwa
To my knowledge they are 3000-3289. You could ask metro on their www site..
How come there are three shuttles running on the M during middays?
3TM
135St. Final transfer to the 2 line to 241St. On the upper level transfer available to the Bx33 to 138St, Mott Haven. 148 bound 3 making local stops. The next stop will be 145St. Transfer available to the M1, M2, M7, M102, and the Bx19 to the Botanical Gardens. Stand clear of the closing doors......
I believe you are talking about a 2 day-mid-day project. Due to the erection of a fence at Fresh Pond Road Station around the Fresh Pond bus depot, M service ran as follows: one shuttle on the Queens bound track from Metropolitan to Wycoff; one shuttle on the Manhattan bound track from Wycoff to Bway-Myrtle middle; and regular M service from Bway-Myrtle to Chambers. These trains relay at Kosciusco St. middle). Please, no debates over the proper spelling of that station!
Thanks for that. But why three shuttles? Couldnt two shuttles be used? I guess it is because of track layout. I have not been up that way in years.........
3TM
This is 148-Lenox Terminal. Last stop. Transfer available to the M2 to 168St. Thank you for riding the NYCTA 3 line. 148St. LAST STOP
I am wondering why they officially decomissioned the D3 track which serviced the abandoned lower level platform. That track could be used to increase the capacity of the station. They could build a crossover from the C local track that services the upper level that goes downtown to this abandoned track. I believe that the abandoned platform could increase crowd capacity of the entire station. It could be used as a downtown only local platform that would operate only during rush hours. If they can't open it for this, they should convert it into a museum, or a NYC Transit Store that sells souveniers and other doodads related to the transit system.
The answer to all questions: Money.
Well, as a matter of fact, rush hour E trains did use the lower level during the early to mid-70s when they continued on to Brooklyn. When the CC was extended to Brooklyn and the E permanently cut back to WTC in 1976, this service pattern was discontinued.
also when the ta ran Racetrack Specials to Aquaduct, the lower level was used
Yep, it sure was. I still remember the "Entrance to Aqueduct Specials at 40th St." signs which were displayed all along the 42nd St. mezzanine; the escalator to the lower level at the extreme southwestern corner of the mezzanine, and the "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special" sign next to it. Although after seeing the loose chain link fence down there while using the underpass in 1968, I was under the mistaken impression that Aqueduct Specials had been discontinued.
I remember using that platform as an underpass back in the mid-1980's. It smelled, was dark, and infested with rats.
I have seen rats in the system. On August 15, 1999, I was waiting at the Columbus Circle station. On the outer uptown track, I saw 2 brown rats, roughly 5-6 inches in length. They were apparently searching for food. My mother was terrified when she saw them. However, as brave as she is, she still loves riding the subways. On September 23, 1999, I noticed that the TA was using rodenticide in an effort to kill the rats.
How did you use the lower level platform as an underpass? There is basically no way to get down there when the station is busy, due to the # of witnesses.
The lower level was open as an underpass many years ago - both stairs and a now-dismantled escalator were available for access.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[The lower level was open as an underpass many years ago - both stairs and a now-dismantled escalator were available for access.]
Reconfiguration of the mezzanine made the underpass redundant.
The most recent issue of the NYPress contains an anecdote about a train that stopped at a deserted station, due to the motorman's inexperience. Several people actually got out and the conductor had to shoo them back on the train. Based on the admittedly brief description, this sounds like it could have been the lower level of 42nd Street (although the tower would have made a mistake then too).
What other stations are there that it could have happened at? None of the other closed stations, AFAIK, are illuminated (with the exception of City Hall on the 6 and South Ferry inner loop, but there would be no passengers in those cases).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, this also happened at Bergen St on the F line.
When was the chain link fence installed down there and what was it used for???
I think it was for the fare control for the Big A Specials which were a higher fare.
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I believe you're right. I seem to recall that the chain link fence extended down the platform along the edge for some distance. In any event, it was intended to prevent regular revenue passengers using the underpass from mingling with horse racing fans going out to Aqueduct. I also remember being disoriented down there; it seemed to me that the lower level track was for uptown trains instead of downtown.
The stairs to the underpass were located at the extreme ends of both platforms where they overlapped; these have been cemented over. The escalator was used only by Aqueduct Special passengers; it was marked, "Entrance to Aqueduct Subway Special". I used to go check it out on Saturday mornings before going down the stairs to the downtown platform. Sometimes the escalator would still be running; other times it wasn't.
My wife was delayed by 45 minutes coming home. Instead of F trains at Jay Street, she was greeted by B, D and Q trains running express. After a long time (my wife hates taking alternate routes, believing you are better off waiting) she rode to 7th Avenue. Still no Fs, but finally a D made local stops to 18th Avenue and turned around.
Clearly the bridge (or Grand Street or DeKalb) was out of service, and the turned the Fs at 2nd Avenue. What is going on?
About 1800hrs a S/B Q brakes in emergency on the bridge. As a result for about 30 min.
S/B D's rerouted 59 to Jay St. then the F line to Stillwell
S/B B's " " at W/4th St. to the F line
S/B Q's " " on the N/R line.
Of course, those trains already in the mix, were rerouted where possible.
As for the BIE, no cause found.
Yikes. A little taste of life without the bridge, and it was BAAAD.
I'm surprised the bridge held up with a train just sitting there.
I picked up the Sept 1999 'The Map' and noted the following:
The Franklin Shuttle is back, with a note stateing 'Reconstruction complete 10/3'
Park Place and Franklin Ave are listed as accessible stations, but there are no wheelchair marks next to the station names.
There are still 'S' marks in the connections boxes for the Nassau line, and the Willy B is back.
The service boxes for the 6 and 2 reflect the increased local service.
Berverl(e)y Rd is still misspelled.
-Hank
What station did you get it. I'm looking all over for it. By the way does anybody have a December 1998 The Map? Whats in the service boxes?
I just got one of those Hagstrom Pocket 5-Borough Atlas. Map 45 shows the area of the Beverly roads-- and they have them spelled differently. It's also two disjoint pieces with a little jog at Flatbush Ave. So maybe, just maybe, the NYCTA is right!
-Dave
They were named after two seperate families for Colonial Days
I've been regularly buying the NYC Hagstrom map for over 20 years and that's the first time I've noticed that error, which has probably been there for years!
Perhaps the Hagstrom folks are hedging their bets, since the street is spelled differently on street signs and in subway stations.
BTW, for all the Hagstrom street map freaks, the bad news is that they will soon be switching to a computerized, digitized NYC map, replacing the gorgeous hand drawn ones in use since the beginning in 1916.
www.forgotten-ny.com
If that is the case, then the earlier TA and predecessor maps where the stations are spelled the same are wrong.
Maybe they changed the name, after all, the station is old. Sometimes they change the spelling of certain things for certain reasons.
I see the argument. "Beverly vs. Beverley."
The BMT has used "Beverley" since surface running days. But I remember street signs in the same area as "Beverly." In fact I had a teacher at JHS 62 who took a point off my city geography test for spelling it "Beverley." This same teacher took away another point for spelling "Williamsburgh" instead of "Williamsburg." I think he had too much free time.
Anyway, I think the discrepancy is the result of a misunderstanding between "Beverley," a family name, and "Beverly," a common girl's given name.
As to the TA, they have no consistency at all. The currently posted map on the MTA website has BMT as "Beverley" and IRT and "Beverly." My 9/30/1990 official subway map has exactly the reverse.
The currently posted map matches the station signs and the street signs. Look at Beverly/Beverley Road & Ocean Avenue -- the east side of the intersection has signs reading "Beverly," and the west side has signs reading "Beverley." At least, that's the way it looked last time I was there.
David
[As to the TA, they have no consistency at all. The currently posted map on the MTA website has BMT as "Beverley" and IRT and "Beverly." My 9/30/1990 official subway map has exactly the reverse.]
You can't use street signs as the final argument. There are several signs in my neighborhood that read "Willets Point AVENUE." Any self-respecting Queens native knows it's a boulevard!
Likewise, there's a sign in the Bronx that reads "180 Street"- no "East" prefix! I thought I was in Jamaica.
I'm sure if you had enough time on your hands, you could find plenty of street mispellings on station exit signs. Unfortunately, I can't think of any right now.
There was a streetsign for a long time at 58Av & Springfield Blvd (by Cardozo HS) which on one side (if your going W/B) said Springfield but the other side of the same sign (travelling E/B) it said Clearview Expway!!! The Clearview was about 1/2 mile away. They finally fixed it.
Also, in Bklyn there is a street called Sackman Street. (2 blocks west of Van Sinderin where the "L" is and parallel to it) Some of the signs down by Linden Blvd say Sakman!!
I agree you can't use street signs to win arguments.
For one thing, there are simple misspellings. Not far from me, there is an embarassing official street sign: "Independance Avenue". No, it is not named after the colonial era Independance family.
Streets named after old-time local families are often shown with cariant spellings: Nicols Road, Nicolls Road. We have an old mid-island community named Commack. There are two different main highways bearing that name, but you will find signs with Commack, Comack and even Comac.
In the case of Beverley/Beverly, absent specific information otherwise, it is reasonable to surmise that the original name was with the "e", it has been modernized or corrupted without the "e" and they are the same road.
I'm most annoyed by the signs that get our Knickerbocker heritage wrong-- losing the 'c' in Bleecker, or the last 't' in Cortlandt (there are some street entrances to the BMT that have that error).
Thne one I find toughest to figure, though, is the staircase at the SW corner of 60th and Lex labeled "59 St Station: 5 4 6..."
How 'bout the way people pronounce "Houston Street"?
I'll plead guilty to that. For years, I thought it was pronounced the same way as the city in Texas. My sister finally corrected me: Houston, as in Howston.
I get a kick out of the way the local folks out here pronounce Buena Vista. It comes out sounding like Bewna Vista.
I know about Houston St. I tell people from Texas, especially from Houston That the street was there, long before Sam Houston was a twinkle in his daddys Eye. I even call their City to my Houston Friends Howston
Maybe they were Avenues, and one day they decided to become Blvds
And I say "toe-may-toe".... A Lovely French Mauve, she is....
W a y n e
A-HA!
So eet eez a BMT verses IRT thing, HEY!
Guess wheech way I vote?
Yous votez "Toe-mah-toe", Monsieur?
C'est si bon!
Wayne
How would a Frenchman say Slant R-40?
When the willb was closed, the boxes for the staitons between Essex and Broad still had J, M in a circle, and Z. The same map had the A and C both part time on Fulton eventhough it had just been changed. They just forget.
Does the Manhattan Bridge have a walkway? I remember seeing some sort of large ledge on the sides of the bridge. There are stairs leading up there from near the anchorage. There is some sort of metal wall blocking the stairs. There also a lot of holes on the ledge.
What is happening to it now.
[Does the Manhattan Bridge have a walkway?]
Yes, but it's been closed for years because of the reconstruction. I don't know if it will be reopened when/if the work is completed.
The walkway on the south side of the bridge has been given a new railing and lighting. I belive they will open it to the public sometime in the coming decade.
They have been saying that about the Northwalkway since 1946
The nort hwalkway I think has always been for maintanance. There are no stairways to the street on either end, and doesn't look like there ever was (on the Manhattan end, it just leads to the subway tunnel).
The southside walkway probablyt would have opened ny now, except for the construction. I callsed the DOT a few years ago when I saw it appearing to be nearing completion, and they said 2004.
The walkway seems to be finished, and so do the rails. It seems the holdup is a painting project. Now THAT's a novel idea.
Let's hope they put down a good coat of Rustoleum first.
They should have done that with our beloved Redbirds.
But if they've been saying 2001 for the opening of that side of the bridge, there must be some other big project. Painting, and probably even Canal St. rehabilitation shouldn't take that long. Perhaps they finished one section of the rails, and will start on another, or mperhaps ore work on the roadway structure above.
On the contrary, another 18 months to paint the bridge may be optimistic given the need for lead paint removal and the construction boom. They've got plywood and canvas over one small section, and the probably won't be moving that rig along very quickly. The contractor will probably start ducking out on them for other jobs.
I hope any female SubTalkers were not scared away. The comments posted were from an immature few. Women, Post here. We know that there are females out there and invite them to post. For the "Children" who were talking about women I say one thing: GROW UP. You are acting like children. Lets get back to the great electric train set better known as the New York City Subway System : )
Getting to a #6 and entering at the BMT entrance on Centre Street, I noticed substantial improvements on the lower level tracks (that come off the Manhattan Bridge). The trackbeds have been completely cleared, and there are workmen on the platforms apparently preparing them for rehab. (I also noticed the J/M platforms have been reno'd).
Is this in anticipation of the lower level tracks reopening for business in the near future?
www.forgotten-ny.com
Define "near future".
But yes, that's the official story - they're being rehabbed in preparation for the reopening of the south side tracks. I'm not sure when that is officially expected (as opposed to when many of us expect it not to occur).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A lot of people would say the Canal Street complex, which unites the R/N with the J/M and #6, at least before the renovations. But...
I'm always completely baffled when I get a #7 to Grand Central and ascend to the mezzanine. I used to get completely disoriented (now I know how to get to the staircase that goes to GCT, which is usually my destination).
I worked in the area between 1982 and 1988 at night, and the current configuration dates to about 1987. I'd say they did as bad a job with it as they could have. The mezzanine is dimly lit and has a chocolate brown color scheme, and it's very tough to get around.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Atlantic Ave-Pacific St LIRR in Brooklyn is quite confusing
Union Square, with the maze of passageways linking the Canarsie line with the IRT Lex and BMT Broadway lines is pretty complex, though not was much since the renovation.
Until I read the postings about the 34St walkway that was very confusing to me lately. I used to use it in the 60's & 70's and just recently was looking all over for it during a heavy rain getting off the BMT at 34St and planning on walking to Penn underground. I didn't know it was closed and walked in circles by the Path area looking for it ("It must be here somewhere, I always used to use it!!") until I finally gave up, and went up to the street and walked in the rain!!!!
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff site
Yeah that was a strange passageway. There were strange windows I think belonging to Gimbels that displayed merchandise. It was a narrow passageway. And if I remember it either curved or the floor rolled a little bit.
I guess you could have gotten over to 7th without going out, by flashing your shield, going up to Times Square, and coming back down on the IRT.
Speaking of passageways, there's a webside called Infiltration. You can get to it by doing a search on the word infiltration. It's usually the first pop up. If you don't know the site, I think you'll like it. This guy up in Canada and some others, infiltrate all kinds of non public and abandoned buildings and explore all over. Frankly, it's a dangerous scene, but they have write-ups on their website and it's fascinating to read.
I wish they would open the walkway again and make a direct connection between the LIRR and PATH, which I often have to use.
Didn t one of the stations have a colored line on the floor or wall to show how to get from one line to another, I think it was Times Square to get to the 7 train from the BMT?
The 7 had the "Follow the Blue Arrow" signs for World's Fair passengers right after the then-Bluebird R-33/36WF trains arrived, but I don't remember if there were any blue lines along the corridors at Times Square or Grand Central.
I believe some of those 'blue arrow' signs survived till the 1980s...
After the World's Fair ended, those signs were rephrased to read, "Follow the Blue Arrow to Flushing trains and Shea Stadium". I remember them on the ramp from the Port Authority Bus Terminal to the 42nd St. mezzanine, then at the 41st St. passageway.
There were colored dots directing passengers from the 42nd St. shuttle to the IRT 7th Ave. and BMT Broadway lines, if I'm not mistaken.
My vote would go to the Times Square complex. We used to use it often to get to Port Authority, and while it was and is well marked, it seems you have to go up and down various stairs and ramps. Not to mention taking numerous left and right turns.
The Broadway-Fulton-Nassau complex ranks up there as well.
How about Atlantic Ave. and Pacific St. connection?
Going from the D to the N/R/B can be a real pain and quite confusing if you don't notice the signage.
Going from the IRT to either of the two is a bit easier.
Doug aka BMTman
I vote for Broadway-Nassau/Fulton Street on the 2/3/4/5/J/M/Z/A/C. To go from one line to the other you must go to the IND platform and then be specific about which stairway to go back up (and in the case of the J/M/Z when you go up, it is up a ramp and then up some more stairs. Also, after you do go back up for the 4/5 you have to choose the up or down ramp (the down ramp leads to stairs that go under the 4/5 line to get to the downtown 4/5 platform).
Runner up: 14 and 6th-- you must go to the L platform to change sides on the F or to get to the ramp and passageway to 7th/14th for the IRT.
Do they ever station TA workers to provide passenger assistance there? I can imagine giving directions that would involve some of the changes in platforms and stairways that you were just describing. I guess if the worker had the legs, it might be easier to take the passenger by hand and walk them to where they wanted to go. Or maybe they should paint different colored lines to follow, maybe like the Heritage Trail up in Boston? Or perhaps post several agents at key points who would relay you to your destination.
> Or maybe they should paint different colored lines to
> follow, maybe like the Heritage Trail up in Boston?
Do they still have the colored lights in the ceiling to guide
passengers to the 42nd St. Shuttle at Grand Central?
-- Ed Sachs
The grand Central colored lights are gone
A good start at Fulton/B'way-Nassau would be correct and complete signage! With the ongoing renovations, I assume signs will be replaced at some point. But the signage to get from the 2/3 to the 4/5 (via the A/C platform) seems particularly bad. Also, numerous "Exit" signs fail to indicate if the exit is not open 24 hours (which nearly all of them aren't), and where to go when it's not open.
I like the painted lines idea. It'd probably work much better than the sort-of 3D station maps they have posted in a couple of places, which probably confuse more people than they help.
Bway Nassau is the one place I get rurned around. Going TO the IND from any oth the other lines, you're turining around using the ramps or stairs, and by the time I get to the A/C platform, I can't tell which side is uptown or to Bklyn, and for a long time there were no signs on the platform! You had to hope you heard the conductor announce the destination, or, when the LCD signs came out, hope you got one of those.
Bway Nassau has to be the worse ever. It is the one place I get turned around. Going TO the IND from any of the other lines, you're turning around using the ramps or stairs, and by the time I get to the A/C platform, I can't tell which side is uptown or to Bklyn, and for a long time there were no signs on the platform! You had to hope you heard the conductor announce the destination, or, when the LCD signs came out, hope you got one of those.
Then, when you see a sign for either side of the Nassau St line, trying to figure out where the other one is, or trying to get from one platform to the other after they closed the desolate winding stairway that connected them. (once again, the signage once was not even as good as it is now.)
Also, numerous "Exit" signs fail to indicate if
the exit is not open 24 hours (which nearly all of them aren't), and where to go when it's not open.
Shouldn't somebody mention this to the fire- or building inspection departments? It seems to me that any type of misleading exit signage could prove fatal in a fire or other emergency.
Broadway-Nassau. I feel like a rat in a maze with no cheese at the end.
How do you think the rats there feel?
Like a commuter in Broadway-Nassau with no martini at the end.
They probably know that complex better than anyone else.
At Columbus Circle, there used to be directional transfer signs for the uptown and downtown '1' that were backwards. If you followed either one, you'd end up on the opposite side to the one you wanted.
I think this has been corrected.
At Herald Square, you can use some, but not all stairways from the 6th Avenue platforms to transfer to the Broadway platforms. Even more confusing is the entrance from the mall, with 6th Avenue, Broadway and PATH platforms all on different levels. You're guaranteed to go up and downstairs at least twice.
Don't even TRY to change at Times Square between the 'N/R' and the '7' or 'A/C/E'. You'll die of exhaustion.
>>>>Don't even TRY to change at Times Square between the 'N/R' and the '7' or 'A/C/E'. You'll die of
exhaustion. <<<
Yeah, I've learned NOT to take the A/C/E to Times Square if I want to transfer to another train. Of course, that's because the A/C/E is a full avenue length west of the actual Times Square.
Yes, the distance the 'A/C/E' is from the other lines in the Times Square complex makes it tiring, but what really knocks you out is that to go from the '7' to the 'N/R' requires many stairways, ramps and hairpin turns. It's good that they connected the 8th Avenue lines to the others, but if I'm going from Queens to Inwood (great parks!), I'd just as soon change twice: at Times Square to the '1', and then again at Columbus Circle for the 'A'.
As it's been mentioned by other Subtalkers, the three original divisions were in deadly competition with each other and positioned their stations as inconveniently as possible in relation to each others'. It was only after the 1940 unification that you could transfer between divisions, and after the war when escalators were built connecting elevated and underground stations, as at Jackson Heights, Yankee Stadium, Broadway Junction et al.
What we take for granted, and even gripe about, could not be taken advantage of in the subway's early decades.
I still remember when there was no free transfer from Times Square to the 8th Ave. line. There were signs to that effect: "No free transfer to 8th Ave. subway. For free transfer take IRT local uptown to 59th St-Columbus Circle". The paid fare zone at Times Square ended at the eastern end of the 41st St. corridor. It was later relocated to the western end, at the 42nd St. mezzanine, and then finally the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone.
That transfer opened on 12/12/88, the same day the Archer Ave line opened in Jamaica. Interestingly enough, the 51 St./Lex transfer between the 6 and EF opened up at the same time, even though the tunnel connecting the 2 stations wasn't finished. They were giving out paper transfers and telling customers to "walk over to the other subway station". They never bothered to say this on the map.
Was this the day that the 42nd St/8th Ave Lower Level was closed as an underpass, or was this a little later?
It's safe to assume the underpass was closed at the same time the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone. I was in the city in October of 1988, and stayed at the Travel Inn Motor Hotel on W. 42nd St. for several nights, and so my old stomping ground was my home station during that week. As I recall, the entire mezzanine was in the paid fare zone by then, and I'm almost positive the transfer to Times Square was free by then as well.
That whole mezzanine is much brighter now than it used to be, and cleaner. Not that it was filthy before; it just looks vastly different. There are a lot fewer stores than there used to be.
Getting up to the street at the IRT Borough Hall Station (from the 7AV line) is confusing. I use that station to go to the transit museum. And when I get to the street I have lost my sense of direction. (Just try to find an IND train to stop at Court St these days, and if you do you get stuck on an ancient R1, Q-car, BMT Standard, Triplex, etc)
Transfering to/From N/R/M to the 2/3/4/5 is very confusing.
Good! I always thought it was just me ! Nice to see a native gets lost there too! (and a member of the NYPD to boot!). I also keep waiting for those damn trains in Court to leave the station too..think the MTA could do something about such lousy service!
"Don't even TRY to change at Times Square between the 'N/R' and the '7' or 'A/C/E'. You'll die of exhaustion."
True.
The best transfer at this station is between the 1, 2, 3, 9 and 7 lines. Second best is the S. Third, the N/R. And last, the worth transfer is with the N, R and 7 lines to the A, C, and E.
>>>Don't even TRY to change at Times Square between the 'N/R' and the '7' or 'A/C/E'. You'll die of exhaustion.<<<
I've gotten soaked with sweat quite a few times with the Times Square N/R and 7 transfer, plus one time I walked all the way to the A, I was about to faint.
What's the alternative? Should the TA close all those passageways, make people walk in the street to interchange between the various routes, and of course charge another fare?
What's the alternative? Should the TA close all those passageways, make people walk in the street to interchange between the various routes, and of course charge another fare?
Here in Toronto, the longest subsway transfer is about 100 metres (Spadina; BD to YUS). The solution adopted by the TTC was to install moving sidewalks.
Perhaps the TA could do the same thing?
CH.
yea but how many transfer points are there in Toronto, try transfering in some places in London or Paris, some of those are quite a distance. Singapore had the right answer, the two transfers are cross platform. The MTA should take a lesson on how to build a subway line for undercost the way Singapore Did. If the contractor could not come within it s bid, the contractor paid for the overcosts. Such a thing can never happen here too much graft and bs. If it was done the Singapore way the 2nd Ave would be built in 15 months.
"Singapore had the right answer, the two transfers are crossplatform."
Yes, but Singapore was building its rapid transit system from scratch and as a unified system. It had the luxury of setting up its system with easy transfers. The New York subway was built three generations ago over a period of three decades by two private companies (IRT and BMT) and a City agency (IND), all of which, as others here have pointed out, were in bitter competition. Heck, the City-built system was created with the intent to drive the privately-owned ones out of business! There was no way in H*LL that these three systems were going to set up transfers at all, never mind easy transfers. MTA inherited this system -- it's not their fault. And it would cost hundreds of millions and cause unprecedented disruption to passengers to realign all the transfer stations for easy transfers.
"If it was done the Singapore way the 2nd Ave. would be built in 15 months."
Easy to say, but harder to do. You can guarantee completion on time if you've got no unions, because you then have a very compliant construction force. But, while they are not always in the right, unions exist for a reason. Similarly, with a compliant workforce, you don't have to worry about safety regulations. Does Singapore have an equivalent agency to OSHA? Again, safety regs aren't perfect, but they exist for a reason. While NIMBYs are a pain in the *ss, public hearings and accountability also exist for a reason. In New York, that reason has a name: Moses. Since Singapore isn't much of a democracy, they don't have to worry about petty things like what the people think. Requirements for lowest bids exist also for accountability reasons, which again don't so much apply in Singapore because there the State knows best.
You want to ensure that things get done? Dictatorships get things done, because there's no messy things like public opinion to get in the way. I'm not saying Singapore is a dictatorship, but it's closer to one than this country is, and closer than most Americans would be willing to live with. As much as I think the Second Avenue Subway needs to be built, if the method of achieving that were to become more like Singapore, I would rather the line not be built. "Democracy is the worst system of government, until you compare it to all the others" (paraphrasing Churchill). We're not like Singapore? I thank God for it!
"Such a thing can never happen here too much graft and bs."
I don't know about BS, but graft is a heavy charge to fling about like it's confetti. Do you have any proof, or do you just presume that if something goes wrong, there must be conscious evil decisions behind it? "Never attribute to malice what can as easily be explained by stupidity."
[Here in Toronto, the longest subsway transfer is about 100 metres (Spadina; BD to YUS). The solution adopted by the TTC was to install moving sidewalks.
Perhaps the TA could do the same thing?]
Moving sidewalks might work in the long passagway between the A/C/E and the rest of the Times Square complex. The problem would be keeping the passageway open during the construction phase. Two moving sidewalks would be needed, one in each direction, as the passageway's foot traffic is roughly equal in each direction at most times. And two moving sidewalks would nearly fill the passageway, preventing its use during construction. Building even just one moving sidewalk would make it difficult to use the passageway.
This is what they should do in the 33rd St passage, which would pose no problem becase it is already closed. A moving surface would provide no resting place for the homeless.
And two moving sidewalks would nearly fill the passageway, preventing its use during construction. Building even just one moving sidewalk would make it difficult to use the passageway.
The TA could issue GO transfers during construction and force everyone onto the steet. If the distance between major avenues in NY is similar to what it is here (800metres/0.5 miles), operating shuttle busses might be prudent.
you must be out of shape, I did it this past June twice a day to get from GCT to Penn Plaza, it was not that bad off the shuttle
The exercise is good for you!
Actually, in the spring winter or fall its not too bad...BUT when its been 90 degrees or so for two or three days......
I'd give a Dishonorable Mention to the 1/2/3/9/F/L complex at 14th Street. Transfers between the IRT and the F require a trek down a long corridor, down a flight of stairs, a walk along the L platform, then up another flight of stairs. Because the transfer point is at the south end of the F and the north end of the IRT, someone riding the at "wrong" end of the train has an additional platform length to walk.
Of course, the station complex is an aggolemeration of three different stations, built by the IRT, BMT and IND. I'm sure that's the main reason behind its complexity.
Actually, I find these complex station layouts part of the wonder of the NYC subway system. And can you imagine if these transfers were not available... how all of us here on SubTalk would be complaining that they should be available???
My life-long favorite, even though not overly complex, is Broadway Junction. As a youngster, riding up the escalator from the Fulton subway to elevated - in one loooooong ride - was the best... especially since you got to transfer from an R1-9 to something even more historic!
The somewhat exotic transfers in the NYC subways are interesting especially at junctions of the old IRT stations with the somewhat newer IND stations.
A bit off topic, but why even entertain the notion of moving Yankee Stadium to 11th Avenue when it can be easily reached from both the west and east sides with the D and #4?
The answer, of course, is that the fat cats who are driven to the Stadium are paramount in the thinking of Mr. Steinbrenner.
Not to mention the people from Jersey who dont know enough to go down University Ave instead of the Deegan. Bus drivers,of course, do it all the time...
Have George try getting out of Dodger Stadium in LA after a sellout. No public transportation except a half empty MTA Bus. No wonder people come late and leave early, to beat the traffic
Bob: Why spoil a nice day by bringing up those pathetic excuses for ballplayers? I live out here but I'm a Mets fan. I don't come out late and leave early. I just don't go. I saw four games at Shea when I was in New York.
Thats ok, I Grew up on Kings Highway and Bedford Ave in Brooklyn, and was still a Yankee Fan back then, they move to LA at the end of the 57 season, and I moved at the end of the 58 season. The only time you could get me to Dodger Stadium is when someone gave me free tickets and parking and someone else drove. I usually went to the B A opps now Edison Stadium to see the Yankees were in time, Once I took the train. I had to wait only 1 hour after the day game for the train to get me back to LAUT. It was worth the wait rather driving the Santa Ana Fwy. Back to the Dodgers They were BUMS in Brooklyn and now they are Bums Again
Kings Hway & Bedford? Thats not even near the Sea Beach!! You have to pass the Brighton and the Culver first before you get to the Sea Beach.
Yup the good OLD BRIGHTON BEACH LINE, which probably had more Marker Letters then any other line 1 D Q QB QT QJ M 7(franklin shuttle)
Aha! You don't go to Dodger Stadium and I don't go to Coors Field, but we'll both go to Shea when we're in the city and the Mets are in town. Something else we have in common.
Basically Steve I go to Yankee Stadium. I moved to LA before there were Mets, and I was a Yankee (football Giant, Knick and Ranger Fan) thenand now There were no Islanders, Net, Mets or Jets as a kid
Bob: Are you a resident of the San Fernando Valley? I think I wrote a message to you some time ago. You sound like you moved out to California about the same time as I did. Who do you root for now? Wasn't it great to be able to ride the subway right to the stadiums and not have to fight the crappy traffic as we have to do out here? It takes half the pleasure out of going to a game.
I think of Bway Junction as an architectual wonder. Somebody actually designed that station and the complex set of tracks leading to it. I especially like standing on the "L" platform to Canarsie. It is curved and on grade. By the way, how did the Fulton El fit into the picture?? Was there a station where the IND is now and was there a transfer walkway to the Jamaica & Canarsie Line? (Where the escalator is) Also, in that same area there was a station on the Bay Ridge LIRR line under the ENY LIRR Station. A poster in this forum even said a couple of months ago that there was an elevator between the 2 LIRR stations.
The next station after Atlantic Ave on the Fulton el was Rockaway Ave, where the present IND station is. It served as the terminal from 1940-1956.
BTW, anyone know why there is a track running from the ENY yard, seeming to head towards the edge of the remaining Fulton el before dead ending?
I think the old Fulton L bypassed Bdwy Junction, but I am not sure, When they cut the Fulton St L from Rockaway Ave to Bdway Junction, the trains terminated on the middle track of the Broadway Brooklyn Line
Thanks, Chris.
I have found that i can zip through the maizes of most stations but the simplest two track station has me completely disoriented. That, of course, is 205th St on the D line. For some odd reason, the line does a 180 between bedford park and 205th Street. Therefore, the north end of the station is actually south of the south end of the station. When I come down the stairs, i am never sure which side I'm looking at. Perhaps by the time I get it straight, I'll get transferred again.
Rockerfeller Center can get confusing on the downtown side because of the unusual express/local configuraton, with the local in the center and the express against the wall. And Fourth Ave./9th St.? A maze of stairwells and blind corners.
Funny you should mention Broadway Junction. It was there on July 20, 1967, after taking that same escalator and a flight or two of stairs to the Canarsie platform, that I got my first glimpse of those historic relics, the BMT standards. My initial impression? I thought they were the most godawful-looking things around. No signs up front, only THREE sets of doors per side after I had gotten used to seeing four on other IND and BMT cars - and now we had to ride on them all the way back to Manhattan? Sheesh! Remember, I was all of 10 in 1967 and didn't know better. I didn't care for the BMT standards then, but I appreciate them now.
P. S. I also glanced over to ENY Yard while waiting for our train that day, and happened to notice a TT train of R-32s laid up on one of the nearer tracks.
Similar story Todd, except I had rode the standards as a young child with my grandma on the Sea Beachin the late 50's, early 60's. When I saw them at Bway Junction on the Canarsie Line in the late 60's I had thought they were long gone & thought I'd never see 'em again. That is why I sometimes think I'll see an R1-9 again, on a line I've never been on.(Not that there is such a line!!) Then I found out they were on the Franklin and Culver Shuttles. I would make a rail fan day out of riding the Standards on the Canarsie and the 2 shuttles, the Q-cars on the Myrtle, and the Low-V's on the Bronx 3rd Av line.
By the way, at the Transit Museum & some Trolley museums I expect to see old cars. Imagine my surprise when I went to the NY State Museum in Albany and walked into a room and lo and behold there was an R9 in that room!!!
I didn't mean to imply there were R1-9's on the Franklin or Culver lines. I meant Standards. I made a mistype when I edited my post by inserting a sentence in the middle!!!
The Franklin did run 3 car standards, and so did the Culver, prior to the purchase of the SIRT. In the late 40s and 50s the standards were on all Southern Division Trains. The Triplex were usually found on the SeaBeach and Brighton Express, because of their weight, they hardly ran on any els
The BMT standards ran on all subway routes on the Southern and Eastern Divisions. The Triplexes ran exclusively on the Southern Division.
I don't remember the triplexes on the Franklin shuttle either. What was the condition of the R9 up in Albany. Could you go into it, or were they keeping it pristine? Did you ever hear of United House Wreckers up in Stamford Conn? They bought one of the R9's after they were scrapped, and they had it sitting in their yard. That was a place you could get all kinds of weird architectural antiques and other odds and ends. That was where I went to measure the cab in the 9's, so that I can make a fairly realistic copy of the cab. One of my great acccomplishments in life. Some would suggest that I just stay in there and listen to the R9 sounds on my tapes and stay off Sub Talk.
I've never been on the R9 up in East Haven. What's it like, I kind of have the feeling you've been there?
The Triplex was not on the Franklin, but they ran 3 car trains of standards. I remember at one long stretch they had 2 sets of BX trains. Do any of you remember what a Bx Cars, or A or B were on the standards, and what their numbers were. No peeking in any book now
BX units were 3-car sets with a motorless 4000-series trailer in the middle. The 2400-series motor units were used.
A units were cars which remained single: 2399, 2500, 2600-2749 or something like that.
B units were 3 motorized units coupled together, usually with sequential numbers. Door controls on the outer two cars of such a set were inactivated.
You forgot to mention that the motorless trailers were 4000s
I did.
The R-9 car in Albany was a little pristine and museumish. You could only go in half the car, the rest was behind plexiglass. They also had hard plastic seats like the newer cars, not cane or the old red cushion. I definitely recommend the museum itself there's alot there besides the R-9. They recreated a street in Chinatown and an Indian village up in the Adirondacks. You can actually go into a big tepee. There's also an antique fire engine. I was reminded of the Museum of Nat. History when I was there.
Although I've been to Branford I've never been in or even seen the R-9 there. It was in a barn along with some other subway cars. The only subway cars I saw there were the BMT Standard and the r-17 IRT car (Too new) The great thing was that the trolleys had basically the same sounds as the pre war subways, such as the pinion gears and the compressors. They also had cane seats which were reversible like the old LIRR cars.
By the way, click on the speaker:
I tried that one ONCE....but the winner is still Fulton St/Bway-Nassau..
If I remember the connection to the L to the 1-3 at 7th Ave is recent, (recent in the last 30 years) that originally there was not a connection, the same to 8th Ave from Times Square
Those tunnels were in place for many years before they were made free passage ways. I worked in that area and the underground passageway extended from 8 Av to 6 Av but was always outside the fare control zone. The portion from 8 Av to 7 Av still is and the tunnel may now be closed off but I can't say for sure.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The passageway between the 7th and 8th Avenue lines is still there at 14th Street, used for storage. I don't know whether or not they plan to re-open it once the renovations are done. They seem to be taking FOREVER. They're even hand-setting the new IND station wall tile.
Wayne
[The passageway between the 7th and 8th Avenue lines is still there at 14th Street, used for storage. I don't know whether or not they plan to re-open it once the renovations are done.]
I suspect it's not going to be reopened. Passageways outside of fare zones seem to be out of favor due to the skell problem. Stairway configurations at the 7th Avenue end would make it very difficult to bring the passageway within the fare zone.
On another tack I actually tried the transfer from the R/N to the F at 4th Ave/9th St...WHEW!! Thats one that was clearly a post-unification afterthought. There was an F coming into the station when I was almost to the top, and literally said "Forget it!" I was going to W4th St at the time, and would have been easier to keep on going to 8th st and walk the rest of the way....
Did you try that one just out of curiosity? I would've stayed on the N/R to DeKalb and got a D/Q.
I just remembered...I was going to the NYTM...still shoud've stayed on the damn thing until Court St though...ouch!
I'll have to vote for Union Square as the most confusing - you quickly lose your sense of direction wandering the labyrinth of corridors, passageways etc. Others are the aforementioned Broadway-Nassau complex, Atlantic/Pacific. Borough Hall complex in Brooklyn is also a head-scratcher.
Wayne
I think Fulton St./Broadway Nassau has got to rank high on the "most confusing" list. To transfer between east and west side IRT lines you need to use the 8th Ave. IND (A,C) platform - certainly not something you would guess. Even to transfer between the northbound and southbound Nassau St. line you must do this, I think - or is there a separate passageway open for that? And the two sides of the Nassau St. (J,M,Z) line are accessed from the opposite halves of the station from what you would expect. And the ramps going up and down... steep enough to tire you out.
Yes there are a few places out there with steep ramps. Those at Broadway-Nassau complex are a particularly stiff grade.
Speaking of steep hills - got lost (almost) on foot walking from 190th Street-Overlook Terrace's Bennett Avenue exit trying to find the (we thought) nearby 191st Street IRT station and wound up walking up a street called Fairview Avenue. A San Franciscan grade, better than 30 degrees, almost a half a mile straight up Fort George Hill to the top!
I thought I was going to die. Little did we know - there was an entrance a block down Broadway that led straight into the side of the hill and directly into 191st Street station! Oh well, at least I got some much-needed exercise.
Wayne
Wayne, I almost did that too on my voyage a few months ago to take depth readings at those stations for Peggy's line-by-line. However I found a very good, easy-to-read local street map near the token booth of each of these stations, which helped me find the entrances.
Now that the renovations at the LIRR/#7 station at Woodside are about done, except for the escalator, I'm reminded of the old Peggy Lee song, "Is That All There Is?"
The so-called waiting room, that was much touted before the work began, is drab and desultory, with unpainted concrete walls.
The ceiling between the platform staircases and the ticket booth features exposed pipes and metalwork, and every pigeon in the neighborhood uses it as a roost. Consequently, the floor beneath already has a substantial layer of pigeon doo residue.
Note: other stops, like Bayside, Port Washington, and older station houses such as Sea Cliff and Greenvale have had excellent reno's, so why not Woodside, which is one of the main portals (every branch travels through it)?
www.forgotten-ny.com
While we're on the subject, anyone know why they tore down the Hempstead Station ticket office??
9/23/99
Jeff,
I don't know the exact reason,but it may have something to do with the new Hempstead bus terminal. There is supposed to be a large canopy spanning the street so people who leave the bus terminal on rainy days could cross the street and enter the train station without getting wet.
Bill Newkirk
Jeffrey --
They are planning to build a "new and improved" station. See the following:
http://licarousel.com/threevillagetimes/1999/03/19/news/railroad.html
Sorry, I'd have made it a link but I'm HTML-illiterate.
Chuck
Heres the link
[Now that the renovations at the LIRR/#7 station at Woodside are about done, except for the escalator, I'm reminded of the old Peggy Lee song, "Is That All There Is?"
Note: other stops, like Bayside, Port Washington, and older station houses such as Sea Cliff and Greenvale have had excellent reno's, so why not Woodside, which is one of the main portals (every branch travels through it)?]
It might be because Woodside serves mainly reverse commuters, and the LIRR seems to have little respect for them.
With all the recent earthquakes (Taiwan, Turkey, Athens), I was wondering how NYC subways would fare in a weak or moderate earthquake.
Even though rare, there are signs that NYC occasionally have experienced earthquakes throughout time.
From what I've observed, even just a 3 or 4 on the richter scale could leave NYC a mess, with all those old buildings and old subway tunnels. First thing to go would probably be the Manhattan bridge.
FYI there is a fault line that runs down the Hudson river under the Indian point nuclear power plant then across 125th street. Sweet dreams
I doubt that the entire city could not withstand a earthquake. Very few if any buildings are built to earthquake stats, let alone a 60 years and older subway system. Good luck
An earthquake of serious strength (it is possible) coud cripple this city, including the subway system, particularly the above ground and elevated portions. And the one spot you don't want to be near is the CityCorp building on E53rd. st. with it's now infamous design flaw.
You'd have a domino effect, all right. The skyscrapers would knock each other over in domino fashion.
I doubt NYC would ever experience a quake big enough to knock down a steel frame building, a low-rise house, or a bridge. Unless the ground moves in two directions around it, I doubt a tunnel would be affected -- Bart ran normally after Northridge. Same thing with most of the major water tunnels and gas mains.
What I worry about is 6-8 story masonary bearing wall buildings, with freestanding brick walls and floors supported by wood joists placed in pockets on the walls. If the building swayed a little on the bottom, it might sway a lot on the top -- enough to have the joists pull out of the wall and a floor collapse on the floor underneath. I recommend avoiding tenements.
I don't have the same concern about my rowhouse, although it is the same structurally. I doubt the walls would move that much two floors up, especially since they'd have to push against the building next door. Might get some cracks, though.
"Bart ran normally after Northridge."
I thought Northridge was the most recent large Los Angeles quake, while the last big San Francisco quake was Loma Prieta (aka the World Series earthquake). Do you mean that BART ran normally after Loma Prieta or that LACMTA rail lines ran normally after Northridge? Or perhaps both are true?
BART was running within 24 hours after the 1988 quake, in fact there were trains in the bay tube at the time of the quake. I do not know about the LCMTA, I was trying to get stuff out of my Northridge homw, before it collapsed and finding my 86 year old mom
Bart of course ran after Northridge, They are 390 miles apart. The 1988 Earthquake was the one that effected Bart, and BART WAS BUILT TO withstand Earthquakes, and so is the New Metro Red Line. NYC was not
Makes you wonder if Carnegie Hall, with its four-foot-thick walls, would withstand an earthquake.
Today I took the PATH from Hoboken to 33rd St. and I looked at the interior shape of the cars. I just was courious if anyone knew what the all mighty Port Athourity was planning to do with the Path in the Future? I keep hearing about the plans for buying new cars to replace their current rolling stock, but when is it going to happen? Is that big FRA problem with that one grade crossing at Harrison yard holding everything up? I'm not worried about the mechenical shape of the current rolling stock it's just it's begining to look really worn. It's like no two cars look the same...true it give them each personality but comformanality is a good thing at times. Also why doesn't the Path run from Newark to 33rd St. instead of having to go to Journal Sq. and having to switch trains? Wouldn't it be easier to just run 2 trains (one to World Trade Center the other to 33rd St.) back to back? or does that FRA thing keep them from doing that?
[Also why doesn't the Path run from Newark to 33rd St. instead of having to go to Journal Sq. and having to switch trains? Wouldn't it be easier to just run 2 trains (one to World Trade Center the other to 33rd St.) back to back? or does that FRA thing keep them from doing that?]
FRA requirements wouldn't be an issue. I suspect there's no direct Newark-33rd Street service because the demand isn't there. Most people traveling on that route probably are willing to pay extra for NJ Transit's much quicker service.
I'll agree with that - especially in the outbound (from Manhattan) direction. Last Saturday my daughter and I came into the city to attend the Law School Forum at the WTC Marriott, so we rode the NJCL to Newark and took PATH to WTC. Later, after the Forum and tours of NYU Law and Columbia, we headed back to NJ via the NJCL from NYP. Yes, it cost $2.50 each to Newark instead of $1.00, but we didn't have to change and we were able to sit together, which wouldn't have happened if we had boarded at Newark.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
9/23/99
I heard that PA-5's will be the next replacement rolling stock. Similar to the PA-4's,AC traction motors will be the difference. The PA-4's are supposed to be withdrawn and converted to AC traction motors and the PA-1,2 & 3's will be retired. A PATH conductor friend of mine says the PA-3's,the Hawker-Siddely cars may retired first. He says they are very problematic. My guess when the earlier PA's are retired,some will be turned into work motors and the remaining K's (MP-51's) will go bye,bye. The last sentence is just a guess,nothing concrete on that yet.
Bill Newkirk
In the NY Post, Thursday September 23, page 18, is a article about The MTA proposes spending ''well over'' $1 billion to build a LIRR connection to Grand Central Terminal between 2000 and 2004 - far more than any other city subway project.
This is double the money set aside to build a short Second Avenue subay line between 72nd and 125th streets.
Your thoughts are most welcome after you read the article.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park blvd Bronx.
After reading the article in today's Daily News it seems that the MTA is finding ways to spend the 3 year surplus before contract negotiations even start.
Just read it on the Daily News online edietion. It seems that it run from 125 to 72 then run across the Bway line as an express to Whitehall St. But they believe there will be oppostion because the community want the 2Av line to run the full length..... I agree that the 2Av line should run down to at least to Houston St or to financial district as I planned in 2Av line...........
3TM
145St. Exit through the first 5 cars. Transfer available to the M1, M2, M7, M102, and the Bx19. The next station will be 148-Lenox Term. Transfer available to the M2 to 168St. This will be the next and final stop on this train. Step in, step off, stand clear of the closing doors......
Just read it on the Daily News online edietion. It seems that it run from 125 to 72 then run across the Bway line as an express to Whitehall St. But they believe there will be oppostion because the community want the 2Av line to run the full length..... I agree that the 2Av line should run down to at least to Houston St or to financial district as I planned in my own 2Av line...........
3TM
145St. Exit through the first 5 cars. Transfer available to the M1, M2, M7, M102, and the Bx19. The next station will be 148-Lenox Term. Transfer available to the M2 to 168St. This will be the next and final stop on this train. Step in, step off, stand clear of the closing doors......
Seems like they put a big emphasis on car replacement. I'm surprised they want to by 1000 B division cars by 2004 -- I would have thought that they would have pushed that off to pay for expansions, signals, stations, etc. My guess is that part of it is putting the whole Eastern Division on automated signals.
Yeah, Larry they are putting alot of smackaroos on new equipment as opposed to expanding the system.
They did a refurbishing job on almost all of the fleet from the R-22's (?) onward. All that was about 10-15 years ago. I thought -- with everthing except for body-rot -- the rebuilding program would extend the life of most cars another 20-25 years. Most of the cars I've seen on both the A and B divisions could probably run another 10 years (some even more).
Again, MTA has their priorities screwed up.
Doug aka BMTman
The TA overhauled upwards of the R32's. The older equipment should last longer than the newer. The R32's, R38's and M&K R42's I feel are some of the best cars in the fleet. And maybe the Sumitomo R40's (modified). If you remember a few years ago the R68's had brake problems. Many were taken out of service for a length of time. I don't care for the R68's myself. I like the R32's over everything. They deserve another overhaul. That would make them last to about the year 2020. And the new cars that are due to arrive, I feel they will have problems from the start. Brian
I agree. Instead of purchasing possible lemons, the MTA should do a second overhaul on all of their early stainless steel equipment -- R-32s, 38s, 40 slants, 40Ms and 42s -- before throwing their money to the wind.
The above mentioned cars are all proven long-haulers, and have the added advantage of being familiar to the work/overhaul crews at TAs car shops, making work on cars faster -- and possibly cheaper than sending them out to an outside vendor.
Doug aka BMTman
I would send the cars to an outside company to overhaul. Look at what the TA did to R42's 4840-4949. Very cheap overhaul. They are falling apart. M&K, Sumitomo and GE did much better overhauls. Not cheap. Brian
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but:
As I understand it, the framing supporting the R-32 "skin" is stainless steel. The framing supporting the "skin" on the R-38 through R-44 is not stainless steel,is likely to fail over the next few years, and is difficult, if not impossible, to overhaul. So even though the stainless steel bodies are in relatively good shape and the equipment on the cars either is OK or can be easily replaced, the cars will not be structurally sound over the long haul. That's why few, if any, of the R-38 through R-44 classes will be rebuilt a second time.
Also, the final MTA Capital Program proposal doesn't seem to include the 665-or-so-car overhaul that was talked about by NYCT a few months ago. Either it's to be funded through the operating budget, or it seems it's not going to happen.
David
David
One possible motivation for the car replacement is the signal system change, and the desire to put the entire Eastern Division on automatic operation.
Or does the TA know something we don't, that has something to do with cracks?
Give the low level of transportation spending overall, don't expect a Manhattan Bridge fix until -- or not even after -- it falls down. Not one of the morons who allegedly "represent" us Brooklyn residents showed up for the MTA hearing. They are too busy opposing business developments in the borough, then complaining about welfare cutbacks since no one has jobs.
[Not one of the morons who allegedly "represent" us Brooklyn residents showed up for the MTA hearing. They are too busy opposing business developments in the borough, then complaining about welfare cutbacks since no one has jobs.]
Sort of like the (presumably mythical) teenager who murdered his parents and then begged for mercy because he was an orphan.
Larry, at the time the equipment being considered for retirement was built, they were constructed with a "planned obsolesence" design life of 35 years. At the time many thought that was too short considering the lifespan of well-designed earlier equipment, but still that was their benchmark.
This means that major components were designed to last about that long, but not much more.
Considering the quantity of equipment involved (thousands of cars--a third or more of the fleet?) the TA may fear that cars that look pretty good now may start to fail en masse in five years or so.
I think they might be more willing to take the political heat of not building this or that line than if there are widespead equipment failures which would touch almost every rider.
I agree that it might be best to send those cars that will get another GOH back to the plants that did the first ones, since they have all the technical specs, etc. Maybe the 4800-4900 R42s should get a trip to Morrison-Knudsen if there are problems with the CI GOH.
The R32s are indestructible. We were on several to-day, their A/C was better than any other cars we rode (R68s, R68As and R62As included), and they show no signs of wear and tear. The R38s looked good too, but I hear problems lie beneath the surface. The cars with the non-stainless (LAHT or carbon steel?) framing are ALL St.Louis Car - the R32s, as we all know, are the Pride of Red Lion - BUDD. Quality work, through and through, right down to the last spot-weld.
Wayne
NYCT has all the technical specs and can supply them to whatever company might overhaul the cars (though I suspect the work would be done in-house if it were to be done at all). Moreover, M-K appears to be out of the car overhaul business, as are GE and Sumitomo.
At the same time that Coney Island was doing a poor job of rebuilding r-42s 4840-4949, 207th Street was doing a fine overhaul of the R-33s. It should be remembered that Coney Island Shop was being rebuilt while the R-42s were being done; this may have been a factor in the final results.
David
[I agree that it might be best to send those cars that will get another GOH back to the plants that did the first ones, since they have all the technical specs, etc. Maybe the 4800-4900 R42s should get a trip to Morrison-Knudsen if there are problems with the CI GOH.]
So if the TA does go through with the 1,000 cars in four years, what do you think they'll keep?
R 143 1,000
R 68 625
R 46 754
R32/A 600
That's 2,979 minus wrecks. You need 600 more -- even more with the 63rd St tunnel and (possibly) the need to turn Bronx/Queens and Brooklyn trains around rather than run them through as a result of the bridge.
I'd guess the R44 (352) and R40/42 (800) stay around for rush hours, non-stainless steel or no. You may actually end up with a car surplus.
In fact, non-rush hours the R143, R68 and R46 may be the only cars out there.
All cars except the R38 are scheduled to remain in full service for the forseeable future. Most are scheduled to be re-overhauled. You will see R44's, 40's, 42's and 32's for at least another 15 years. There are only 212 R143's scheduled to be purchased. They are purchasing over 1000 R142's for the IRT.
Yes, but if the R38 is doomed due to its structural problems, what will replace them? At this time, there is a car shortage. They can ill afford to scrap even one unit right now. Are they committing to buy additional cars beyond the R143?
Wayne
The R38, IIRC, is not scheduled to be overhauled, but are good for the next 7-10 years. I wouldn't expect any IND/BMT car type to be completely retired until the next contract for new cars is issued at least a decade from now. There is no way the MTA can replace all the redbirds at the same time as the other division B cars. I expect to see slant R40's and other 1960's cars (except the above mentioned R38) running to at least 2010, even longer for the R32.
Just wait: the R-32s will break the longevity record for a subway car fleet currently held by the Gibbs Hi-Vs. Notice I said subway equipment; the Qs lasted for 60 years, but they were el cars.
Structural problems will doom the R38?
They wre always one of my favorites. Can anyone explain what the structural problems are?
I was told they have leaky roofs and it's not worth it to repair them.
I'm not so sure if they aren't attempting a fix on this - we saw a few R38 sets on the "A" last Friday - #4110-4111; #4122-4123 that looked like they had completely redone roofs.
Some Slant R40s have a similar problem but their sloped cowls deflect some of the rain water away from the leak points. The Eastern division Slants have had their roofs Bondo'd to death in an attempt to stem the problem. #4406-4407 and #4412-4413 were quite porous.
Wayne
Someone "in the know" on here posted that the problem with the R38's roof is so bad it isn't worth the $$$ to fix.
I wonder what all that salt-air those cars have been exposed to in service on the Rockaway line has done, and will a similar fate befall the R44's.
Another idea. How about Metro North Run more trains from GCT to the Bronx Stations, put in metro card turnstyles on the inbound entrances and outbound exits. Also offer free transfers at Marble Hill, 125th St and anyother subway/Metro North Station, and charge a local fare
Better yet, How about running special trains on Metro North to stations within NYC city limits and charge subway fares and Metro North trains would bypass those stations (allow free transfer to/from the special train). Also reopen the closed stations on metro North such as 59th Street- The line has four tracks so Local and Express is possible with Metro North running Non-Stop to Grand Central and the special trains using the Lower Level-only four tracks so turnstiles could be installed. Make 125 Express and the others local. The tunrstiles could have a button (like MARTA) to push for a transfer which would be used for Metro North trains and Metro North could issue a paper Metro Card for access to the Metro North Subway.
The big Metro North line to add would be in the Amtrak cut via Hell Gate to Penn. If LIRR to GCT is built, there will be capacity to run some Metro North trains to Penn. Reopening several stations along the Amtrak line in the East Bronx (Parkchester, Morris Park, Pelham Parkway, Pelham Bay Park/City Island) would offer a premium alternative to the express buses.
If a Harlem line connection could be added, the dicounted monthly pass Metrocard could be made invalid at the GCT subway stations. LIRR and MetroNorth riders would have to walk from GCT, take the bus, or pay an extra fare on separate metrocard. LIRR and MetroNorth riders to Penn could board the subway at the discounts, as they can today. This would help shift riders bound for West Midtown and Downtown over to Penn, relieving crowding on the Lex Subway.
[ If a Harlem line connection could be added, the dicounted monthly pass
Metrocard could be made invalid at the GCT subway stations. LIRR and
MetroNorth riders would have to walk from GCT, take the bus, or pay an
extra fare on separate metrocard. LIRR and MetroNorth riders to Penn
could board the subway at the discounts, as they can today. This would
help shift riders bound for West Midtown and Downtown over to Penn,
relieving crowding on the Lex Subway. ]
I dunno about that being a good idea at all. It's not like there's lots of extra capacity at Penn Station. Maybe there's some room on the subways there (7,8 Ave lines), but the station itself is more than full with LIRR, NJT and Amtrak all discharging people by the thousands there. The LIRR GCT connection is designed to alleviate congestion at Penn -- I'd say you'll see a small decrease in LIRR service to Penn (with most GCT service being additional, not replacing Penn service), and NJT and Amtrak surely will want to use additional capacity into Penn as well (i.e. "midtown direct").
I never mentioned The Amtrack Line over the Hellgate, I meant the Hudson and Harlem Lines into GCT. I know from experience there is a little bottleneck that I noticed at Mott Haven when the divisions meet, but the wait for 3 minutes or less. Opening up the Harlem and Hudson Division local stations, should help
Well, since they were not built with stainless steel throughout the roofs and ends have serious rot problems. I believe the R-40s also suffer this problem although not to the extent of the situation w/the R-38.
I will shed a tear when their demise comes, since they are a favorite of mine too. :-(
Doug aka BMTman
Remember how sleek those R38s looked as delivered?
They had that thin blude stripe along the center of the car body and steel fluting from about the mid level down.
I recall seeing them for the first time on the E and shortly after that on the F. To this day, I recall them as having the most rapid acceleration from a standing stop - of any car in the system.
They even had air conditioning in the last 10 built. What a shame they weren't designed as well as the R32. I'll sure miss the R38s.
I also remember when the R-38s were new. I saw them for the first time on the E back in 1967 or 1968, but it wasn't until 1987 that I actually rode in them.
Of course, now that they're running on the A, I will wait for them whenever possible, even if it means letting three or four trains of R-44s pass by.
Shall does beat the R32's in design and speed.
N Broadway Local
9/29/99
Can't the roofs be repaired in a simple manner? There are no roof vents except near the ends. The arch roof is round and smooth. Why not measure the roof lenght and width,make cutout for A/C vents,place on roof and rivet in place? That would shield the original roof from furthur rot and stainless steel roof would never have to be painted.
Bill Newkirk
If the R32s make another 15 years they would retire at 50. This is more than respectable compared to other long-lived equipment.
Shows what "Built by Budd" meant. Stupid how many years the TA resisted stainless steel construction.
The R32 could last longer than that, if they are properly maintained. I have a feeling the R32 will be used until they literally start coming apart at the seams.
The R32 will outlast the BMT Standards and even the Gibbs Hi-Vs. R32 is the most durable and rugged car ever built for NYCT.
Wayne
Keep your fingers and toes and (for those SubTalkers who are literally space aliens) tentacles crossed.
Sometime in the next 15 years the fare will have to go up. The longest we went without a fare increase in the past was 13 years (1953-1966). If the TA tries to hold the line on the fare the way it did then, by running the equipment into the ground, even the R32s could face the torch sooner than they should.
The R32 has been given a 24-year reprieve thanks to the craftsmen at Morrison-Knudsen whose superb GOH has extended their lives considerably. They are superb trains, even as the first ones approach the age of 35 (anniversary's coming up soon, if it already hasn't come).
Wayne
The first units delivered are right at 35 years; IIRC, they entered service in October of 1964 on the Q. I started wearing glasses at about the same time. Man, I'm getting old!
The TA could probably avoid the political nightmare of a fare increase by increasing the fare by a small amount each year, rather than hitting the system with a massive increase every few years, usually right in the middle of a recession. Even if you don't believe the TWU deserves more money, or that fare revenues should be used for capital projects, the MTA could use a lower level of debt. The fare could be tied to the overall CPI, or the TWU contract.
I'd say increase the fare Jan 1 -- that ends Pataki's promise of holding the fare until the end of the century. And limit any increases to the unlimited ride passes, the single ride passes, and rush hour travel, gradually phasing in peak hour pricing. The charge for pay per ride cards would be higher at peak hours, and the increase in price for unlimited ride cards would only apply to 10 presumed rush hour trips per week.
Though higher peak fares make enormous sense (and have been in use on the commuter roads for decades) they could only be implemented in the same fashion as when the TA brought in MetroCard discounts: Raise the fare, wait a few months for the political theater to calm down, then introduce off-peak fares as a discount.
However, I note that higher rush-hour fares seem to be widely detested in Washington, DC. I suppose the same would happen here.
(Higher rush hour fares detested in DC).
The car owning affluent and articulate use mass transit during rush hours, while the poor use it all the time. Throw in race, and you understand why peak hour fares are detested.
I can see it now.. the stations will be packed with people waiting outside the turnstiles waiting for off-peak- some will wait for 1-2 hours! OR: You *** the turnstile took off a peak fare instead of non-peak. No thanks!
Could be worse, they can use what BART uses, a mileage plan instead of a flat rate. All fares South of 59th will be the 1.50 and then from there, depends on how far.Like 205th St to Coney Island on the D $5.00 One way. Could happen since they are using fare cards now
But the turnstles are not designed for exit swiping, they would need to be replaced, or attatched to boxes that have another scanner on the inside to implement this.
Then we'd have other problems:
1- people without enough money on their cards to exit--another booth inside? let them go (then no one wouild have enough money)
2- More fare beaters and harder to catch-- they'd beat the exit swipe and flee into the street
3- People still buy and use tokens. At my station I still sell at least 50% tokens a night--what will you do with the Technophobes (those hating technology).
4- The system will be harder to use-- they'd look at the map and try to figure out that they'd pay to ride from point A to point B- and is line A cheaper than line B or is C the best?
5- Increased congestion-- many stations back up for exits. Can you imagine Penn Station IND using cards to exit as well!
6- Political Suicide--any politician that votes for such a system will be voted out of office and maybe even recalled and never get another elected office. I can see it now vote for Schmoe, I'll raise your taxes and make you pay more! Then flooze says vote for me and I'll get rid of the exit fare--I already know you'll win!
I've said it before, but I don't care for the technophobes, everybody has to learn to move on. I think banks should stop issuing passbooks, only those people who already have them can take them to the grave. That's just one example, tokens are one of many others.
I know that there are publications and magazines dealing with Trains, Railroads, Busses etc. But is there a publication that is for Lt and Heavy Metropolitan Rail. If so could someone let me know how to get a subscription to one
Railpace is billed as "The Northeast's Own Rail Newmagazine". It tends to cover West to about the Mississippi and South to mid-atlantic, so it's not just Northeast. It does include the ususal freight and long haul passenger, but quite a bit of local mass transit, e.g. August had a article on NYC subway, and yesterday someone said that Sept. has one on the new LRV in NJ. There's also a e-mail type publ. that's a bit expensive that has some mass transit (there was a recent thread that let me see a sample copy) and an industry publ. "Mass Transit" that has been running more then your typical self-prase type articles.
I'm not trying to sell any of these so I'll stop plugging at this point, but you can e-mail me off line for subscription/address info.
Mr t__:^)
Headlights is the publication of the Electric Railroader's Association. It is eternally late in publication and not very thick, but it's definately worth reading. Modern Tramway (a British publication) is also rather intersting, at least the issues I've seen (I don't subscribe to that one). Two others that you might find at shows (they're no longer publishing) are Electriclines and The New Electric Railway Journal. They were both excellent. I'm not sure why the former stopped publishing; the latter ended with the untimely demise of its publisher last year.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[And limit any increases to the unlimited ride passes, the single ride passes, and rush hour travel, gradually phasing in peak hour pricing. The charge for pay per ride cards would be higher at peak hours, and the increase in price for unlimited ride cards would only apply
to 10 presumed rush hour trips per week.]
Increasing fares on the single-ride passes would be a political headache. "Activists" would be hollerin' that the fare increase would be discriminatory against the poor, who can only afford to pay for one trip at a time.
I'd say that the best type of fare increase (should one be considered necessary) would be an elimination of the free trips for MetroCard purchases over $15. This was mainly intended as a way to persuade people to use MC instead of tokens. Now that MC is becoming the universal fee medium, that purpose no longer exists.
Re: Fare increase during rush hours ...
Larry said "The charge for pay per ride cards would be higher at peak hours, and the increase in price for unlimited ride cards would only apply to 10 presumed rush hour trips per week."
Peter said " ... elimination of the free trips for MetroCard purchases over $15"
What is the goal here, more money for Capital improvements or trying to motivate the public to change their "discretionary" travel, i.e. if you don't have be their 9-5 travel non-rush hours ?
B.P. (before Pataki) Capital improvment money came from the State, not the fare box. I'm sure it was Larry who was one of the folks that pointed out how high the percent of the fare comes from the farebox here, so why would we want to raise it further ?
Tolls ... don't make them any lower ... again you're sending the public the wrong message.
We need the State & Fed. money because everybody wants to use it (the system) now & it can't handle much more capacity. The problem for the near term is that both Rudy & George are busy looking over the horizon & not minding the store that they were elected to do.
Mr t__:^)
The fare is higher now than ever! in 1961 the minimum wage was $1.25 and the system cost 15 cents or 12% of the minimum wage. Now it is 1999 and the minimum wage is $5.25(or let's say it is) the fare should be 63 cents- in fact it is $1.50 or 28.4%-- more than double. Wages have not kept up with inflation--the minimum wage should be $12.50!
We do not pay for police- $5 for a car wreck, $10 to get a ticket. We do not pay for fire department--we charge $100 per fire!
We have a free public library. We should have free or more subsidized transit. Let's L O W E R the fare to $1.00- I dont have kids in school, why should I pay for schools? I dont fly- why do I pay for airports, etc. Transit is another public service and shoudl eb treated as such.
On Saturday I paid $7.50 for a round trip via lIRR to Jamaica. In 1962 it cost$1.72(% of increase is over 400%)
(FARE is higher relative to wages).
50 years ago transit workers generally earned less than those who rode the trains. Due to the success of the TWU and the loss of higher income customers to cars, express buses, and commuter rail, today transit workers earn more than riders.
In 1961, the transit system covered 100 percent of its operating costs -- without the TBTA surplus, MTA dedicated tax revenues, federal funds, etc. Imagine if that were the case today. We'd be using those other revenues to build stuff all over the place! But how do we get there? Some combination of 1) higher fares, 2) lower wages, 3) higher productivity, 4) and higher ridership at existing fare levels. We can't control #4, and #1 and #2 are unlikely to be popular. Perhaps OPTO isn't so bad after all.
Airports are paid for taxes on the airlines, vendors, the travelers, tickets, and airport fees that airlines pay. If you don t use the airport you usually do not pay the tax on the services. If you don t want to pay taxes, go to New Hampshire or Vermont where you do not nhave to pay most of these taxes, by the way if it were not for taxes, who would pay for police, fire, garbage, yous SSI etc
I remember the best part of CB radio was the the "Coffee Breaks" they used to have at Big Daddy's on Coney Island Av, now long gone. Besides being a great venue to socialize (or anti-socialize as the individual preference may be), it also helped the channels run alot smoother, and provided a venue to sell/swap equipment. Maybe this Board should consider something like that.
That's a great idea Bob. I for one am always looking for opportunities to anti-socialize. I'd like to meet some more of the people who I have been trying to antagonize with my juvenile sense of humor. It would have to be within 150 feet of my building, as I become disoriented going further away from home. Seriously, though, your idea sounds like fun. Hopefully my enthusiasm for the idea won't kill a good idea.
Isn't that part of what these field trips are about? I've only had a chance to join one so far, but I've renewed old acquaintances and met folks I've only corresponded with on both the field trip and on various Transit Museum tours.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Continental's new card= Clean Planes. Comfortable Seat. On-Time Arrivals. Looks Like We've Found Our Niche. This makes 8 in series, by my count.
PT-1/101-6868 new card= young asian man in dark suit ... if you saw the mailing with 5 photos, he's #2.
There's supose to be four versions
I seem to remember that when the R-44s and R-46s were new they had slightly different interior appearances. After they were overhauled I could no longer see any difference in either the exterior or interior. What was changed, and how can they be distinguished now (beyond the car number)?
Before their overhaul I'd say they were nearly identical. The easiest way to distinguish the two (IMHO) is that in the A-car the R-44 the crews' cab door is smaller and it swings in. On the R-46 it's a larger (like the storm doors) sliding door. Also on R-46's the key hole to control a particular door panel was on the lower part of the brown panel near to the door, but it was somewhere else on R-44 (don't know where). The are also a bit different. It sticks out a bit on R-44's. Now I think it's easier to distinguish between the two.
Wayne
Don't forget that the forward facing seats had heavy steel posts to hold them up. Another way to tell the R46 was that annoying alarm that went off when people crossed between cars and activated the end door unlock momentary switch. The R44 door cutout switch was similar to the R16, being located behind the swing panels and comprising of a three position switch and locking pawl.
The 'A' end of the R46 has 2 seats, where the R44 has 3. With the overhaul, since most R44 were done by TA shops, the partition windows wer either left in, or the frames were left. The R46 had the windows and frames removed.
-Hank
The R44 armrests on the foward facing seats have much sharper edges than the more rounded R46's.
But the one sure way to tell the difference between them isn't with your eyes, but ears. The R44 has a rather unique sounding brake system which makes a rather loud "whoosh", kinda sounding like a fat guy who ate way to much baked beans. The R46 now has the generic sounding brakes that all of the 1987-91 overhauled cars now have. Before 1990, the R46 used to make a whistling sound when it released it's brakes.
If it's one thing I miss from the system its the unique sounding brakes that came from every subway car. It was easily to tell the difference from an R30 or 32/38, an R40/42, R44 and an R46. Only the WF R3336's on the 7 retain the sounds they had many years ago.
The easiest way to tell the difference is by the sound when the brakes release. The R-46 has the more traditional WHOOOOSH sound while the R-44 has a WHEEEZY sound. Geeeze, there's a real technical difference. For a quick indicator. Look at the cab door. The R-44 has a small window and swings inward while the R-46 has a larger-sliding door with a large window.
9/23/99
Check out the R-44 brake release sound. Doesn't it sound like a modern updated R1-9 sound? Remember the original R-44 release? It was very similar to the M-1 (LIRR) but not identical. Now the R-46,this car had the two most amusing releases in the Transit anywhere.
Bill Newkirk
Very true. I remeber that and the R46's still have an interesting sound when the brakes are realeased. All of them did that sound when they came back from overhaul it was the coolest sound. They are still a few that still do that sound from when they came back from MK. Not to forget that the R46 has the same GE 1257E1 motors like the R62, R40/40M. I love that sound!
Peace
DaShawn
9/23/99
Correction: When I said that the R-46 had the two most amusing brake release sounds,that meant when the were in the original condition and after they were GOH'd by M & K .
Bill Newkirk
Very true and very perceptive. The original R-44 used a G-4B and G-4C brake packages (A and B cars respectively). The LIRR M-1s use a G-4 and G-4A brake package. I suppose that's why they sound like the Pre-overhaul R-44.
R44= St Louis Car company
R46=Pullman Standard
9/24/99
R-44 St.Louis Car Company
R-46 Pullman Standard
BOTH WENT OUT OF BUSINESS AFTER THESE CAR WERE BUILT AND DELIVERED !
Bill Newkirk
Gee, I wonder why ...
I'd cut both a little slack, since the orders were the first made under the federal government's UMTA design, and if there's one thing true about goverment it's the more people that are involved, the less it's able to walk and chew gum at the same time.
St. Louis Car did a pretty good job with the R-29, 33, 36, 38, 40 and 42s, but the mandated changes in the R-44 created the worst car to come down the pike since the GE R-16s. Try to imagine a Bombardier-produced R-44...
9/25/99
I heard years ago that the "low bid" on the contract did them in.
Bill Newkirk
Another way is knowing which lines they serve. All of the R-44s are on the A line. The R-46s are found on the F, G, and R lines, and help out on the E as well.
Externally, the area where the blue band used to be on R-44s is non-stainless steel and is painted silver. On the R-46s, that same area is stainless steel and is not painted.
Two notes:
1. On Monday, SEPTA will be holding a community meeting about the upcoming Girard Avenue light rail project. Yours truly will be there to see what they plan to do.
2. Has anyone from Philly noticed SEPTA's new map campaign? They've replaced all the 1982-era maps in the subway system.
They look sharp.
Steve - where will the monday meeting be held? I think I'd like to
hear about the bus route being made permanent too. ;)
Gotta love those old maps. According to the one at 15th street for
the subway-surface lines, you can still take a train from Reading
Terminal to Newtown and Bethlehem. Wow!
At the Haverford Community Center near 53rd/54th and Haverford Avenue in West Philly at 5pm.
I like that map too. Some of the Budd El cars had their '82 showing instead of the '84 versions complete with trains to Newtown and West Chester.
I found something interesting in the Philadelphia Tribune yesterday.
Inside the paper was an insert for an African-American visitors guide to Philadelphia. One of the sections was, of course, how to get around the city.
Included was a SEPTA rail system map. On the map I saw two new stations being proposed for the R2 Newark/Wilmington.
The first was at Baldwin between Crum Lynne and Eddystone and the second was Churchman's Crossing between Newark and Wilmington.
I found this strange as I haven't seen or heard about them anywhere else.
Have you?
Someone mentioned them within the last month on this forum, although I don't know as they used station names, simply a reference to "new stations" proposed for that line. Like you, they were looking for more information, and didn't get any, IIRC.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Churchman's Crossing opens in 2000 and Baldwin opens in 2001.
All this can be seen on the new station maps. The new maps also depict ADA accessible stations.
Churchman's Crossing is in Delaware and is being shepherded by DelDOT. It's about midway between Wilmington and Newark in the heart of lots of new development and some serious traffic congestion.
Baldwin is in Delaware County (PA) just north of Chester. The station existed at one time and served the Baldwin loco works, since closed. The site of the works is being revamped as an office park and the station will serve it as well as park and ride. This has been proposed for quite some time and may replace the Eddystone station which is close by.
I have Baldwin as proposed on a map from the 80's.
In one of the city's free weekly papers, I read an article about the City Planning Commision looking into putting rail service onto Roosevelt Blvd, that gargantuan 12-lane highway extending 14 miles from Broad Street to the city line.
As you can imagine, the most popular idea was an extension of the Broad Street subway up to Whitaker Avenue(not a great ways up the Boulevard) and extending the El along Bustleton Avenue.
Other ideas included a new light rail system to tie in with the Broad Street subway and run in the tunnels a la the Market Street trolley/MFL joint subway tunnel between 31st and 15th Streets and also putting a Regional Rail line( R4?) in the median.
The commision director said she would like to see both the El and subway extended, creating a "Northeast Loop" and creating more connections between the subway and El.
I didn't see anything NIMBY-ish at all in the article(maybe the line won't go that far up the road).
Local residents really want a BSS extension, comparing the plan to PATCO's planned system additions.
Truth is stranger than fiction. Many of these same residents fought the Northeast Freeway (up Pennway St) with the Broad St subway extension in the median for fear of what the subway would bring to their neighborhoods. (This line was so certain to happen that the Sears station was built privately.) Now they're embracing it.
At at least $1.5 billion, I wouldn't hold my breath that any of the recommendations will be built. Also, this is about the tenth rapid transit study done for the NE and nothing's come of any of them. The prospect of commuter rail along the NY Short Line is probably even more distant than ever since the Conrail breakup, as this is CSX's main line along the Northeast corridor. It has become more busy since Conrail went goodbye.
The City Planning Commission is also trying to sway the study a little since it doesn't want to do much on the Boulevard itself. Any remedy to the problems of the 12-lane Boulevard can't ignore the traffic and pedestrian problems, especially since the top 10 ped accident locations in Phila are duly represented on this roadway (I think 6 of the top 10 are here).
As many of you know, in october the 2 train will serve as a local with th 1 line at late nights. I guess it will benifit those who live in manhatten but if you live in the outer boroughs like i do this is a major inconvienence. What i don't get is why not have addtional i trains do th Job and leave the 2 alone? the line is long enough as it is and whether you live int outer boroughs your wait is still 20 minutes. I see how th A line is at nights (oh man death can't be busy!!!!!!!!) So I guess the Next Line to mess up it's express is the D, huh? I enjoy the #2 line and it is unfair that this what is done to accomidate others while many more suffer on an endless line. Does anyone know why th ta chose the #2 rather than add more #1 service between South Ferry and maybe 137th streets?
Oooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhh Nnnnnnnnnooooooooooooooooo not the number 2 line. Hahahahahahhahahahhhahahhhhahahahaha hahahahhhahahahahahhahhah.
N Broadway Local
You forget the 2 train was a local before it was a express
You're confusing the 2 and the 3.
Ooooohhhhh yyyyyesssssssss. OOIIIIII VAAYYYYYYYY!!!!
If they really wanted the improve service they should have the No.3 Line running from 148 Street Local to South Ferry during late night.
By the way the time from 241 Street to Flatbush local is 1HR and 37 Minutes. Which is only 10 added minutes.
I totally agree with that statement 197%. This idea of running the 2 train as a local is not the smartest thing to do. And if I am not mistaken the 6 train is supposed to run all the way down to City Hall at night as well with the 4 of which both lines would provide 10 min local service instead of the current 20.
Peace
DaShawn
I remember back in the 50s. when they made the 2 a express and the 1 a local to avoid the hold up at 96th St switching, until that time the 1 was a Local from South Ferry to 137th St, and it was also a Express from Brooklyn to 242nd St. At one point they had a Broadway Thru Exp, that ran Northbound Express from 96th to 145th and reverse in the AMs
So running the 2 as a local brings us back to pre 50s
Oh? I always thought it was the 3 train that ran as a Lenox Local to South Ferry. If Redbird's reading this, we'll need you to share your wisdom with us on this interesting topic.
-Stef
In those days there might not have been a 2 or 3 train, they may have been the old Original or early IRT Cars. The 1 Express was the first to get the replacement cars in either 54 or 55. The local.Lenox and Bronx Trains were still Hi or Lo Volts. The Bronx Train was the Express to Brookly, and the Local was from South Ferry to 1`45th Lenox. The Bronx Terminal kept on Changing either 241st or 180th. The Dyre was a shuttle back then. This is the Mid 50s remember
As far as the No.6 Going to Brooklyn Bridge that was a great thing. Here are some good things coming out of it.
1. No more switching trains at 125 Street
2. T/O doesn't have to walk to the other end. I hated it when I have to walk the platform on a early Sunday Morning once.
3. More runs for Midnight and AM crews.
5. No more 5 trips for midnight crews.
There where job were you did 4 trips to 125 St and a full trip to Brookyn Bidge or 3 Trips to 125 St and 2 to Brooklyn Bridge.
As far as the No.2 Midnights there was not many takers.
What going to happen with these G.O'S. The No.2 will end up running late and go Express anyway.
Having 10-minute headways on the late night locals is definitely a good idea. They aren't going to run three services at night on the 7th Ave. line, so the way they are doing it makes the most sense. With #2 trains 20 minutes apart, you don't want to miss one by having it pass you on the express track while you wait on the local platform. That has happened to me, and it is no fun.
I think that having the 2 run local during the overnight probably helps more passengers from Brooklyn and the Bronx than it hurts.
As I see it, here's who gets slowed down:
1. People riding through from Bkln to the Bx or vice versa (not too many of those)
2. People going to Bkln or the Bx who normally get on at one of the express stations. (again, not that many -- express stations on the West Side IRT are mainly commuter stations, especially 14th, 72nd and 34th have pretty low ridership overnight in my experience. An important exception to this is 42nd, which because of the transfers does have relatively heavy ridership overnight.)
On the other hand, the trip on the subway is faster for people who travel from local stations to Brooklyn or the Bronx. If the 2 is running express, these people now have to wait up to 20 minutes for the 1, and then possibly another 20 minutes for the 2 at Chambers or 96th. Remember, overnight ridership at many of the local stations (59th and Christopher come to mind) is probably much higher than at the express stations listed above.
The trip is also improved for those travelling within Manhattan (train every 10 minutes instead of every 20).
CTG
Riders having to catch the #1 or #2 still have to wait 20 minutes for their respective trains beyond Chambers Street or 96th Street.
<Street>>
That is true, but at least they now don't have to wait 20 minutes at their local stop and then 20 more at Chambers or 96th Street. How depressing is it to have been waiting at 79th street for the 1 for 15 minutes, only to see the uptown 2 fly past on the express track -- then you know you'll be waiting the full 20 at 96th as well.
they might as well take the local all the way and hope a exp catches up down line, it usually does by 14th st
Not at that hour.
The 1 and 2 should be timed to meet at 96th and Chambers. If the 2 is a few minutes early, it has to wait for the 1 to arrive before heading to 241 Street.
Also, if they are making it easier to get places late nights, why don't they extend the 5 from 180 Street to 149th, and reverse on the middle track at 138th Street? Then, to go to the east side from Dyre Avenue, you just take the 5 to 149th instead of the 5 to 180th, and then the 2 to 149th, before getting on the southbound 4.
Because they didn't add any service, they merely reorganized the existing service. Having personally made this trip (from 231st to SF) the express and local NEVER meet at 96st southbound or Chambers northbound. The Local trip is a scheduled 49 minutes. In general, the ride takes between 45 and 55 minutes.
The express saves me a whole 5 minutes between 96 and Chambers. This puts me about 10 minutes ahead of the local at Chambers st, and I'm not including the waiting time at 96st.
Bottom line? A 10-15 minute increased trip time for persons on the 2 who ride from anywhere above 96st to anywhere below Chambers.
As for the 6 and the 4, the 4 currently makes all local stops late nights, and the 6 runs as a shuttle. Now, the 6 goes all the way, all the time. Here, they've added service.
-Hank
All I know is that some people who live in the Bronx where I work are pissed. They work the 4PM to 12AM shift in Middle Village, Queens and they use the #2 to get to the Bronx. It's already about a 90 minute commute for them, and this makes things worse.
It's better to have a local than nothing at all.
A westbound freight train with about 12 cars and a Green NY&A locomotive on each end. I was during the evening rush at 5:15 PM and it was traveling at a pretty good clip - about 45-50 MPH.
I would have thought that most freight on the Main Line would be handled Mid-day or ovenight.
[A westbound freight train with about 12 cars and a Green NY&A locomotive on each end. I was during the evening rush at 5:15 PM and it was traveling at a pretty good clip - about 45-50 MPH.
I would have thought that most freight on the Main Line would be handled Mid-day or ovenight.]
I saw it passing through Jamaica at 5:45, using the track to the south of Track 8.
The two empty lumber carriers probably were the same cars that had been unloaded the day before at the Triangle Building Supply siding next to Medford station.
Do they still use the old Bay Ridge branch thru Brooklyn, and if yes, how often do they run a train through?
[Do they still use the old Bay Ridge branch thru Brooklyn, and if yes, how often do they run a train through?]
Use of that branch has picked up considerably. On the way to the Brooklyn Waterfront Tour last Saturday, I saw a good number of freight cars at the yard just south of the Brooklyn Army Terminal, where NYCH exchanges with NY&A. How frequently trains run, I'm not sure.
Peter, I have heard that they do at least two trips a week through Brooklyn -- Tuesdays and Thursdays. I have seen frieght movements on either of those two days from the Canarsie el structure, so what I heard is probably correct.
Due to the breakup of Conrail, I am sure we will see more movements on the Bay Ridge in coming months. An interesting sight this morning was the unearthing of one of the spurs over by Pitkin Ave. Apparently, the recycling center over there needs additional track for an increase in scrap products.
PS. Peter, what happenned to you on our trip? We lost you over by BAT...
Doug aka BMTman
[PS. Peter, what happenned to you on our trip? We lost you over by BAT...]
I was wandering around the lobby and other parts of the BAT and seemed to have gotten separated from everyone else. As it was getting a bit late, and I wasn't sure how long it would take to find the rest of the group (or even if I would be able to), I decided to return to my car.
A question was asked yesterday about the last run of the R-11 and Wayne passed the ball to me. I cannot give an exact last date for the last run but it probably occurred on or about 8/29/76 concurrent with the major service cutbacks that eliminated the EE and the first K. R-11's had been used either together or mixed with R-32's on the #7 Franklin Shuttle. Effective with the service changes enough equiptment was freed up to allow R-16's to be assigned to the shuttle displacing the R-11's which were then taken out of service.
On July 2,1976 when the Transit Museum openned at Court Street #8013 was already there. The remaining nine cars lasted until 10/20/80 when they were scapped.
Larry,RedbirdR33
9/23/99
I saw the slide of the last days of the R-11's. They were graffittied and looked terrible. A sad sight for a unique 10 of a kind experimental trainset.Did the R-11's have A/C when first built? That drop ceiling near the cab always points to air conditioning. I read of a rather strange air filtering system with UV lamps to kill germs.
Bill Newkirk
Nope, No A/C even when rebuilt as R-34s. Big changes were the removal of the percipitrons, addition of headlights and replacement of the drum brakes with disk brakes.
Now for the trivia question for 25 bonus points only:
When first purchaced, the R-11s were referred to as the 'Million Dollar train". What was the not-so-kind name given to the R-34s. (Mike H. should recuse himself here)
The 2 Million dollar f*ck UP?
As I've mentioned before I printed two pictures of Rll cars; one was a #3 West End car in a subway station in 1968; the other a #4 Sea Beach at King' Highway on my wife's birthday (January 24, 1970--the year we got married). Those two pictures have always fascinated me because those BMT trains had discarded number signs in 1964 and yet carried numbered signs. LarryRedbirdR33 gave me a partial explanation for this some time ago, but it still is a mystery why the R11's would carry number signs when other cars were not. Someone got an answer?
What was so special that the Rll's could do this?
Nostalgia???
Fred: When the R-11's were delivered back in 1949 the BMT still used numbers for route designations. They were out of service for most of the later 50's(with one exception) and did not return to service until after the R-34 rebuild. The was in June of 1965 and they still had the original roll signs;probably because the TA could not make up its mind what would be the post-Chrystie Street routes.Also the R-16's were still runnning on the Eastern Division were using numbers at the time. I would guess that after Chrystie Street openned it simply wasn't worth the time or the money to order roll signs for the ten cars. So the R-11's stayed true to their BMT heritage and continued to display route numbers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry,RedbirdR33---Thanks Big Guy. Now my question has been completely answered, but I can now know why many of you in New York hold the TA is low regard. They have the ability to screw things up, don't they? They can confuse us, too.
How about 60 Foot SH**CANS?
The R-11s/R-34s are among my favorites along with the D-Types. Whenever I'm at the museum, I head for the 11 first. Whan I sit in it, it really seems sort of spartan with that drab green color. I guess the technical oddities made it my one of my favorites.
After they were overhauled, the "million dollar train" became known as the "Becker Bombs". I never learned who Becker was but I suppose he took a lot of ribbing at his retirement party
At least they didn't sterilize anyone anymore after the precipitrons were removed.
Bill,
Spoke to Don tonight; he informed me that the R11s were built with provisions for AC in the roof! Oh well, just got my computer up and running again, made such a big crash Suffolk PD responded!
Had to reinstall everything! Rounded up the usual suspects but all I got was the innocent blank expressions and protests of innocence!
Will call tonight.
Gimme dem old time subway cars, they're good enough for me!
Mike H
It couldn't have been as big as those two Triplexes which smashed into each other on the Sea Beach at Stillwell Ave. in 1955.
That impact was reported to have measured 5.6 on the Richter scale.:o>
W a y n e
WOW! That must have been a slow speed crash.
And I'll bet nearby residents reported hearing a sonic boom.
I still wonder if there were any incidents of two BMT standards crashing into each other. They always seemed to pick on other cars.
The theoretical unstopable force colliding with an imovable object?
Those were precipitrons. Not only did they sterilize the air, but they were also sterilizing conductors.
Mike: Believe it or not, I still dream of riding a Triplex Sea Beach number 4 car to Coney Island, and a Brighton Express number 1 to Ebbets Field. Old memories die very hard for many of us.
Thanks to Doug Diamond, Alan Braunstein, and Bob Andersen the Brooklyn Waterfront Fieldtrip write up and photos is now online.
Enjoy!
-Dave
Dave, the article and pics look great.
Bob and Al: thanks for the shots! Next time we'll have more time to venture over to the NY&A interchange yard!
Doug aka BMTman
Great shots and review!! Too bad I missed it since I was in Key West, well I'm not that upset....Well maybe a little... nah...
Yeah, Dougie, those ain't subway car trucks in the pics. They're from TA flat cars. I don't know the origin. They may have been Lo V trucks or something.
This pic: http://www.nycsubway.org/fieldtrips/waterfront/waterfront04.jpg Looks like gear teeth on the left outer wheel. Can't tell from here, but I'd guess that it's a locomotive truck. In any case, the sign and arrow don't mean the truck has to be mounted differently (that'd be a pretty inefficient way of doing things, wouldn't it?) See that white handle? Depending on the division being traveled, that handle will put air into either the left hand or right hand trip-cock. The Flushing line is signaled A-division (IRT) style, so on the Flushing line, the handle would be in the IRT direction.
-Hank
Thanks for clearing that up, Hank, that the sign is referring to the direction of the handle and not the truck itself. But I thought that the Flushing Line had the trip-cocks on the same side as BMT/IND, and not IRT.
That is a truck from an R-23 class flat car, early 100 numbers
I was kind of wondering, since they didn't look familiar. Not in those shots -- but in some that I haven't developed yet -- are some Beckendorf trucks alongside the TA marked ones. It was the Beckendorf's which I would assume went on TA flatcars.
Anyhow, thanks for clearing that up.
Perhaps Dave can make the changes to the captions at the writeup at some point.
Doug aka BMTman
Bettendorf, those trucks could have been from something Bruce and the boys screwed up. The TA flats that have been scrapped all had that funny truck as far as I knew.
Funny photo op: in Greenville, Bruce has surreptitiously kept one of the TA flats he was supposed to have sent to scrap. They're using it to haul around ties. The FRA got on their case about bad track a while back.
It still has spray paint on the sides: SCRAP!
Hey Transport Pro! Good to hear from you.
Maybe Bruce & Co. scrapped the TA flatcar. We didn't see it in the NYCH yard. Perhaps the trucks are all that remains of the flatcar? I did see it on the property back in February -- it was parked next to that graffiti-inhanced caboose and the museum-retired BEDT steam engine #16.
Catch ya, later.
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, Lou!
Key West is one of my favorite places in these here United States (not THE favorite since they don't have a subway ;-)). I hope you did a FULL tour of Duvall Street? Did you get to go to Sloppy Joe's (the funky, run down original -- not the new, large trendy joint)?
And of course you HAD to take a picture or two at the famous mile-marker "0" ('Next stop Cuba....90 miles south').
I would also assume you got one of those picture-perfect sunsets at the Duvall Street Pier?
BTW, did you use Conch Republic Mass Transit? (that's a Moped to the uninitiated)
It's good to have you back onboard!
Doug aka BMTman
Did both Sloppy Joe's taverns. The orginal one that HE left when the rent went up $1 and the one up the block. Did get the marker for most southernest point but two work men screw up the pic. Waited 1/2 hr but they did not move or care.
Got a pic of US 1 END sign and Mile Marker 0 (ZERO) of same!!
Great time....Thanks.
9/23/99
Sat 9/18 I attended the Trans Rail Expo at the CNJ terminal at Libery State Park. I noticed an absence of vendors that were ther years back. It seemed it was leaning more towards the Lionel crowd. The "food court" was in the front of the terminal (by the river) and those vendors were different. $2.00 for a 20oz. soda didn't make my day. I used to sell my Subway Calendars there but dropped out 2 years ago. Staying there all day and only selling 12 calendars didn't pay so I stopped going. Because of a small parking lot that vendors used to park was eliminated for some landscaping,this caused a shift in parking priorities. Now visitors had to park in the new Light Rail parking lot and take a free bouncy "school bus" to shuttle attendees back and forth. OUCH! my knees still hurt! One guy getting off the bus told me that the show s*cked. Although the admission was dropped and the event now a two day affair,I didn't see wisdom in it all. I ran into a couple of friends and they said it was the worst ever. Now the question: WERE YOU THERE and what did you think.
Bill Newkirk
I didn't make it myself but several people from my N scale club went, including our newsletter editor; she wrote the trip up in the newsletter (received today), and I quote: "The five of us spent the entire trip home trying to figure out who to blame for suggesting we go in the first place, and when we got back to Tinton Falls we found that the other four had been doing the same thing."
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Reports of the slants running on the D line are true - thanks to our good friends in operations planning. It seems that D service for Saturdays calls for 14 trains to be put into service from Coney Island (Stillwell Yd.) However, O&P scheduled only 13 lau-ups on Friday. So, at about 10 AM every Saturday, a consist of R-40 Slants goes into D service. It runs untill around 11:00 PM.
Now for all the real railfans, I spoke to the D line night Superintendent to try to persuade him to run R-32s this weekend. No promises.......
What would it take to get a consist of a couple of triplex sections and a few R1/9's for a weekend D? If you're going to tell me that they can't take power, I've got an answer for you. Put the Sperry track car that's built inside a Mack Bus Shell on the head end. And just for some back-up power, borrow that GG1 that hangs out in Hoboken. Yeah, I know, the G doesn't run. Well how about getting the museum Mack Bus, maybe putting some rail wheels on it, and have a double header Mack pulling the 9's and Triplexes. I have to get a towel, I'm drooling all over my shirt.
Hey, speaking of the Sperry Rail car, Paul, were you aware that Nicholas Sperry went to Erasmus Hall High School?
He is considered the 'father of radar' (not O'Reilly).
I think his Sperry-Gyroscopic Co. was based on Long Island for many years during World War II.
Doug aka BMTman
9/24/99
That's my old Alma Mater , Class of '70.
Bill Newkirk
And that's my Dad's, class of '32.
Fight on Buff and Blue !!!
Wayne
9/25/99
I hear you,Wayne !
Bill Newkirk
How about the Museum Triplex for old times sake
9/24/99
The museum D-types need work and not just cosmetic. The R1-9's haven't run in years and need overhaul work too. The museum fleet would need this kind of overhaul to ensure reliability and insuring not to "lay down" and tie things up on the "road". The obvious answer to that is one word to most of these answers on SUBTALK....Money!!
Bill Newkirk
We need to start a NYCTA Preservation Society and then come up with unique ways to raise money to fix these trains.
There is already a Railway Preservation Society comprised of those who lend their time and money to the cause of TMNY cars and property repair. If we at Kingston work with the same three to five volunteers, what is another preservation society going to do? Instead of dreaming about what you can do to save a redbird, think of the poor TA equipment that needs help wherever it may lie. If you like Seashore better, than join them and help pay or restore something within your capabilities. The Transit Museum was a great example as to why people should put their money where their mouths are. They almost closed due to TA budget cuts but due to the volunteers, cars are slowly getting attention. We don't need to save more cars and we don't need to start more bureaucratic red tape. When you buy a car, someone has to sign the check for Material Sales and someone has to pay the trucking company or railroad to deliver it to the museum. The one thing I don't understand about the Transit Museum's budget is why it doesn't come from the media accounts that are funded from movies and commercials. If the movie company that bought the rights to use NYCTA rolling stock in the Money Train, why didn't those monies pay for museum upkeep, minus labor. Bet nobody but a bean counter from 370 could explain that one, heh?
How about going back to the Board Of Transportation
You can say that, but the next question is who is willing to work on them? Most TA personnel are busy working on the revenue equipment down at Coney Island. Then again every Railway Museum across the United States needs the manpower and $$$.
What can you do???
-Stef
Will normal weekday service consist of all R68 trains? I know I'm in the minorty here, but please don't mess with the D train. Keep the R40 where it belongs, on the N and Q lines.
I have NEVER seen an R40 Slant on the N. The N is served by the R32 and R68. The R40s are found on the J/Z, L, M, Q and D on the weekends.
I've seen it. I saw one at Stillwell when I was transferring from D to D. I rode one out to Ditmars (and back, the same one), I saw one going the other way on the way back at 39th sporting a yellow diamond /\/\ (M, aka upside-down yellow diamond W) on the side.
The Stillwell scenario mentioned above was when the Q still had R-68s and the Astoria scenarios were when the Williamsburg Bridge was closed.
I've seen many Slant R40s on the "N"; I believe there is even one or two that do weekend service on the "B", but have never seen one on either the "J" or "Z".
Wayne
There was a slant 40 Saturday on the B. I didn't see any on the D.
The R40's on the B are actually borrowed from the Q. The R40 slants don't have "Z" signs and that's why they never appear on the J/Z.
Yes, I am aware of the Slants lack of a "Z" sign (wasn't "Z" an afterthought on the front end curtain rolls? - some of them look handmade; like sideways "N"s painted brown) - but I do believe they carry "J", so theoretically they could put in for weekend or non-rush hour duty.
Wayne
I have also seen them on the N. Even rode on such a train to Coney Island a few years back when it pulled into Pacific St. first.
I personally would love to see a D train of slant R-40s or R-32s. At least it would make the express run up CPW exciting, not to mention giving a great railfan view.
It was midday. I first saw it at Suphtin Boulevard, and then actually rode it from 111th to Broadway-ENY.
PS-It was a few yrs ago
That could have been a put-in from ENY Yard, as they use the Slants on the "L". If a Slant was sleeping there, it's no big deal to sign it up as "J" and send it out. There ARE R40s on the "J", but they're R40Ms, with the straight end (the "B" end storm doors have the long windows and they have the little cutout pockets by both end doors, just like the Slants).
Wayne
I seen th R40 Slant last monday afternoon while i was taking pictures & that the only R40 Slant train i seen running on N line.
Peace Out
Meane
There are several R40 slants on the Sea Beach line. I see them almost every day.
How bout the Slant 40's or the 32's on a Yankee Special instead of pulling 68A's from the B???
Geee wizzz express from Yankee Stadium (after a win too!!) all the way to CI on a Slant!!!
Lou: Brooklyn? Yankee Stadium? Boy I am getting old. Those two terms were oximorons when I was a kid. The only Yankee fans I knew in Brooklyn were in Italian neighborhoods around my relatives, probably because the Yanks had so many Italian-Americans on the team. But in the Jewish, German, Polish, Norwegian areas, they were solid Dodger fans, and in African-American communities they were 100% Dodgers fans. As an Italian-American I hated the Yankees and hated the Italians on the team the most. I felt angry that they were Yankees instead of Dodgers. I hated DiMaggio the most. It drove my grandparents to distraction. As I said, I am and always was a little different.
I grew up on Kings Hwy near Madison HS, One ut of 10 of my friends were Yankee Fans. The Weird One was the Giant Fan. In 1957 I rooted for the Redlegs in the National league, since I met Frank Robinson a Year Earlier. That lasted one year. Funny in 1980, I was doing some volunteer work in a kids hospital in Northridge Ca, and Frank Robinson was there with his wife and kids. One of the kids asked me why don t I ask him for his autograph after I told the kid who he was. I said in front of Frank and the kids. I already have his Autograph on a baseball I received from him at Ebbets Field in Brooklyn in his rookie year. Both Frank and I laughed, and then Frank asked really, and I explained to him how.
Bob: I take it from your note that the rest of your friends were Dodger fan. Did they still root for them when they left Brooklyn, or did they junk them on the spot? I was told many still rooted for the Dodgers years later.
It was 40 years ago. They mostly were mad, some went with their dads down to Philly if the Dodgers were in on a weekend. My cousin who still lived in Brooklyn until the mid 70 s did not have a team to root for until the Mets So it lasted only 4 seasons without a team. I laugh now, the people in LA without a football teams, some of my frinds say theyu prefere it so they get better and more games to watch on the TV rather having to watch the Lambs and Traitors, oops Rams and Raiders
Bob: You're absolutely right on the football statement of yours.
When the Dodgers and Giants left New York, National League fans were without a team until the Mets came along. Even though they lost 120 games in 1962, the fans loved them. One can only wonder what would have happened had Gil Hodges not died when he did.
Hey, it's $1.50 to get to a Yankee Game, $200 (Tower Air) to get to LA!!!
Always was a Yankee fan, even living in Queens and I could see Shea from my Grandmother's Porch.
Lou: You're probably a nice guy, I'll give you that. BUT a Yankee fan living in Brooklyn? Today that may be appropriate, thought most of the people I met there are Mets fans. You have to believe, however, that when I was a kid it was almost heresy for a Brooklynite to be a Yankee fan---unless you were Italian. Those neighborhoods were the only ones that had a large minority of Yankee fans because of all the Italians on the team----DiMaggio, Raschi, Martin (Paessano), Rizzuto, Berra, etc. I hated the Yankees with a bloody passion, and especially hated the Italians on the team---every one of them, and I happen to be a proud Dago. Figure that one out. OK, I'll tell you. I was wierd then just as I am now.
Hey Fred, there were Jewish Kids in Flatbush during the 50 s that were Yankee Fans, and the Yanks did not get their first Jewish player until Ron Blumberg in the early 70s. The Dodgers had there 1st Base Coach Jake Pitler at the time;.
The Dodgers had a fellow named Cal Abrams, who was thrown out at the plate by Richie Ashburn in a decisive 1950 game against the Phillies. The third base coach got canned as a result.
His name was Milt Stock and he deserved to be fired. We could have had the bases loaded and none out with Robinson, Hodges and Furillo coming up. We would have won and won the next day in a playoff since the Philly pitching staff was exhausted. Then we probably would have lost the series to the Yankees====again. Damn them!
Dear Fred, quit whineing about Dem Bums loosing 50 years ago. I do remember Abrams, He went to Madison
Bob #1 Brighton Express: Old Brooklyn fans can't get over our troubles with the Yanks. It just stays with us---except 1955.
Both Yogi and I still say Robinson was out at the plate. Or was that 56. But he was out. 63 killed me more then 55
It was 1955 and he was safe.
BAD CALL WATCH THE INSTANT RE-PLAY
OK, OK. It was 44 years ago today that Dem Bums finally won their first World Series. Sandy Amoros made that onehanded catch of Yogi's slice down the left field line.
And the following year the bullpen coach was canned after recommending Ralph Branca to pitch to Bobby Thompson.
His name was Clyde Sukeforth
And how about the year Hodges could not buy a hit, and Larsons PURFECT GAME
Fred, back in the 50's and continiuing to when the team moved to Patterson I was a Yankee Fan. I grew up in Sheepshead Bay. I liked the Scooter. I remember a lot of the players. Woodling, Berra, Reynolds, Martin, Mantle, Whitey Ford, then of course, Who, What,I don't know. And I was a skinny little Jewish kid. Come to think of it, everyone else liked the Dodgers. No one I used to get the crap beat out of me all the time? (No not really.) I have no interest in the team now, as well as a definite dislike for their principal owner.
Heypaul: Glad you survived. But Jewish boys in Brooklyn weren't supposed to be Yankee fans. Shame on you.
Fred I survived too, and yes Jewish Boys can root for the Yanks-Bob, Also the Giants. Ask Joe Torre who he rooted for in a 75% Jewish Neighborhood(The Italian Kid)
Bob: What's happening with all these Jewish boys from Brooklyn coming out of the woodwork saying they rooted for the Yankees as a kid. Danny Kaye and Larry King didn't and almost all of the Jewish boys I knew in Brooklyn were Dodger fans. As for my fellow Italians, poo poo on them. It doesn't surprise me that he didn't root for the Dodgers. I'd say a good 35-40% of my fellow dagos rooted for the Yankees, even more in Queens. That's why of all the Yankees it was the Italians that I hated the most----absolutely despised Rizzuto, Raschi, Berra, DiMaggio and Martin (Paesano). That was my way to make up for the fact that "my fellow dagos" were rooting for a team I hated with a passion.
Fred have you read Joe Torre s Auto Bio. How about him a Italian Kid from Marine Park was a Giant Fan until his brother was signed by Milwaukee Braves.
All Yankee specials come out of Concourse Yard and return after use. Only R68 & R68A cars are laid up in that yard.
You asking for a Conductor revolt? You know how the spoiled brats gotta have their seat.
I took the R-40 today out of Stillwell Avenue on its first run and rode the whole line. When i got to 205th Street I overheard the station cleaners talking about the train. They were MAKING FUN OF IT. Who wouldn't like the R-40? They were making fun of the A/C when it turned on and called it slow. Hey, even though it had a car with dead motors but it still picked up speed faster than the a R-68 with all of it's motors working. By the the A/C rules on the R-40 rules unlike the cheesy R-68s that take a whole run to cool off. If your on a R-68 during rush hour you can't even breath!
That is so true. The R-40 has much better Air conditioning, only once was I ever hot on an R-40 and that's because I was in a broken A/C car (needless to say, I immediately moved up to the next car). In fact, the only thing that the R-68 has over the R-40 is the seating.
None of the R68s (#2684, #2529, #2904, #2782, #2639, #2699, #2567, #2702, #2664, #2607, #2570 AND 68A #5179) I was on Friday had what I could consider adequate air conditioning. You could tell it was on, but not really cooling too well. #2607 was especially rank, you could hear the blowers going full tilt but naught came out but warm, muggy air. Thank goodness we only had to go one stop on it. Later in the day, down at 8th Avenue/14th Street, a Slant R40 "L" was cooling its heels waiting for passengers. #4416 and #4417 were stone cold even with the doors open. Ditto for #4442 and #4443 And "C" trains #3441, 3493 and 3714 were all nice and cold.
Wayne (we like it ice cold)
After reading your statement, if one took the time to think about it, the TA definately has come a long way.
Who would ever thought ten years ago we would be using adjectives such as "stone cold" to describe the "L" train and "nice and cold" to describe the "C" train, of all trains during the summer.
Only if an ice age descended on New York....lol
Well, it happened once already. That's how Long Island and Long Island Sound came into being. It could happen again.
We have to thank the folks at Morrison-Knudsen (for the R32s) at Sumitomo (for the R40s) for making life a bit more bearable underground. I remember when "CC" meant a 100% chance of a wheezing, gasping, ancient R-1 or R-4 and when the chances of finding an air-conditioned R42 on the "LL" were slim to none. A few times I managed to get one in their early days - August 4, 1969 (this was technically an R40M) and again on July 3, 1970 (from 8th Avenue to Broadway Junction: R42 #4888). Most of the time, we were stuck with R-7s and R-9s. Not to take anything away from their quaint looks and air sounds, but they were murder in the summertime. Half the time, the heat was actually ON and some of the fans wouldn't work. The R-6s and R-7s on the "E" and "F" lines (especially the "F", with its super-crowded conditions) were even worse.
The "L" didn't come into the fully-air-conditioned age until the R42s got their GOH and the R16s and R27s were sent packing; this was probably in the mid-to-late 1980s. BTW - the Slant R40s have better A/C than the MKCo R42s and WAY better than the NYCT R42s. The way to tell a NYCT R42 without looking at the number (which is 4840-4949): Opposite and behind the cab, they have a curly bar like in the Slant R40; the MKCo R42s have an R32-style grab iron up near the ceiling.
Wayne
9/26/99
You know something! Maybe the TA is experimenting with the A/C units. This is just a wild hunch. The riding public this summer must have complained bitterly about the oven like stations and maybe they are turning up the thermostats! If they are set at 72 degrees,maybe they're upping them to 76 or 78 degrees. The reason,if the air conditioners don't cycle on often to maintain that 72 degree setting and they're cycling on less, that's less heat generated in the stations and tunnels. Of course multiply that by the amount of trains tranversing the tunnels and maybe they can imagine stations that aren't as hot as before. This is just a wild guess,not a suggestion.
Bill Newkirk
A wrong guess, I'm afraid. The HVAC on all NYCT cars remains passive between 60 and 71 degrees F. Below 60, you have heat and above 71 degrees, you have A/C. There has been no experimentation with the A/C on any of the car fleets....
Ah yes, but the R32s are so much colder - maybe Harry's right about the gaskets. I remember the R32s in the good old (pre-GOH) days, with no A/C; some of the noisiest and hottest cars going (the R10s were louder). Now they are a joy to ride in the summer.
Wayne
The non-AC R-40 slants were quieter, but in terms of heat, I think they were the B division champs. They also had the misfortune to run in mixed consists with ACed R-40s, making them seem even hotter when you would go from car to car.
Along with that, the soot stains on the ceiling around the fan vents (also seen on the R-38s) helped remind you what you were breathing.
I remember riding mixed slant R40's in the summertime on the A train. Standing room only (if that) on the AC'd cars (if it worked, 50-50 chance it didn't), and completely empty in the fans-only cars.
I still think back to that hot day in August of 1967, boarding that venerable old F train with its ceiling fans whirling away. I didn't think it was that bad. At least the heat wasn't on.
HEY STEVE B - guess what I found in the back of my Grey Book - a daily commuting log from when I worked at the IEEE in New York and commuted back and forth via Bee Line Bus and "F" train - from Feb. 5, 1973 to August 18, 1974.. and the cars I rode on Sept. 11, 1973 are in there.
AM: R44 #142 (#5278)
PM: R-6-1 #1277 (we all know what happened THERE! Yurrrghhhh! Bhleccch!! Ralph!!!); R40A #4376 (71 Ave-Parsons); then R40M #4496 "E" from Parsons to 169th.
Wayne
Your story on that R-6 was a classic, especially where people were falling into each other and then fainting and passing out from the heat. Not to mention the part about steam wheezing out of every joint. I liked it so much I printed a hard copy and have it at home. That was one of those instances in which you had to be there. Were the storm doors open between cars?
Sept. 11, 1973 was a milestone day for me, as I mentioned earlier. I got my driver's license that day. My sister discovered she actually had a brother after that.
You know, Steve, I couldn't really tell. I was up near the head end of #1277 and the only thing I could see clearly was this guy's armpit.
I couldn't even look up to admire the nasty-looking GE fans on the ceiling! :o>
Then when the passenger in the back puked, it got worse. There was quite a commotion, and the folks up at our end had nowhere to go. We had to be doing at least 50MPH through the East River tube.
Wayne
If my calculations are correct, 50 mph equates to Ab above middle C for a bull and pinion gear sound. IIRC, you said the gears got up to F# or thereabouts.
I'll bet a lot of people were wishing the storm doors had R-21/22-style drop sash windows.
It's still a classic story no matter how you slice it.
Yes, IIRC the Bull gears got to about F# during #1277's shoot through the tube. It was on another ride home that we hit Ab above middle C, as we went through Sutphin Boulevard after unwinding from the broad curve. I believe the lead motor was #1233 in that case.
Wayne
Listening to heypaul's CC tape, I could hear an F# in a few places. Usually, the R-1/9s would get up to at least E above middle C on the local routes. There was a GG train I took on June 7, 1969 which got up to F# or so between Hoyt-Schermerhorn and Fulton Sts.
We had disagreements with Mike H. about installing those tongue and groove door rubbers on 6398 but let me tell you, with a portable heater on each end of the car at Kingston, that Canadian Air last winter didn't feel like it. The existing PSS switches don't have to be readjusted either. And some at the other museum want to use R-36 panels.
Harry, if you are going to upgrade the door rubbers, you better get with the new technology and terminology. The PSS switch no longer exists. They are now called 'Free Wheeling Door Switch's'.
Incredible. Ain't it amazing how you can turn a car into something abnormal? Well, at least the car at the "other musuem" looks normal, with all of it's original parts in place.
-Stef
Unless you see something abnormal about the other car, you can tell me about it, as it hasn't been mutilated.
-Stef
Years ago on television, I saw a news report that showed some crews changing the filters on the AC units on a subway car. I could swear that the workers were wearing respirators and in full space suits. I imagined that the reason was that the filters might be good breeding grounds for bacteria and molds and other junk. Not too long after that I was at some sort of public meeting with a TA representative, and I asked him about it and he kind of shrugged it off and promised to call me back.He never did.
Was I dreaming the hazardous material handling garb of the guys changing the filters?
Let me give you the simple answer to your question.
According to System Safety per OSHA standards, there are very few tasks performed by Car Inspectors that require respirators or protective clothing. Changing A/C filters falls into that catagory. The predominant contaminant on a dirty A/C filter is dust. However after 40-60 days in service thay do get very drty. I have no problem if an employee wants to take extra precautions but simply put - it is not required or necessary.
One interesting side note. until very recently OSHA considered the paper dust masks a respirator. As such, the use of the paper dust mask (commonly available at Home Depot) was illegal for employees to use unless they were respirator certified. Fortunately, that has been changed.
Thanks for the info Steve. More questions. What you said about OSHA and the common dust mask being considered a respirator is funny. I guess they're just calling it a respirator because it's more in that category than calling it a carburetor. I would hope that OSHA is aware of the limited use of the 3M 8500 type respirator. When you say that that has changed, do you mean they no longer call it a respirator or that the TA no longer requires respirator training? Sometimes you see guys in body shops, or working around hazardous dusts wearing those things, and maybe the mask will keep their skin clean but it won't protect their lungs.
About the AC filters. I guess my paranoia concerned that the filters could be breeding grounds for things like the tb bacillus, which a couple of years ago people were worried about the large number of people walking around with tb. Actually I think that tb is still a major health concern here.
Over the years, I've periodically read about concerns about the impact of steel dust on the health of TA workers.
I was just noticing on one of the bridges, the Manhattan maybe, where it looked like they had a real fancy system of isolating the area where they working on the bridge. It looked like they had the area sealed off with tarps or something heavy, and that they were exhausting the air and passing it through some separate filter system. I remember years ago there was a lot of concern of people in the community underneath some of the bridges when they were scraping lead paint off the bridge, the paint was falling to the ground and being inhaled by the children playing on the street.
Anyway, just thought I start the day off with a little paranoia about the air we breathe. Paul
That was one hell of an operating position for the
conductors on the older equipment. Those guys
really stuck their neck out in more ways than just
doing the job. Between the cold, rain, passengers,
lurching trains, and manuvering up there and back
into the car, the conductors on the older equipment
were a gutsy bunch and really have my admiration.
I'd be interested if anyone on the board here worked
those cars, or maybe had a friend or family member
who worked those cars. What was it like? Am I
making it to be worse than it was? Did a conductor
ever get seriously hurt or die on the job from
having to operate from that position? Were they
required to stay up there until they passed the end
of the station? In my mind, they are certainly
unsung heroes...
Here! Here! That should also go for other places like here in Chicago, Philadelphia, and even Cleveland, where do to management, the unions(yes that includes the current leadership of atu 308) and an apathatic passengers, condutors no longer exists.
Hey, from 1965 to 1985 TA employees frequently drank on the job, didn't bother to do maintenance, and let the system go to hell. I say hats off to the current TA workers, who have delivered record MDBF and improved operation despite cutbacks. It may be that the pre-1965 crew was as good or better, but they all hit the highway with a bag of cash after the strike. This workforce is the best I've ever experienced.
Whoa Larry. I am not on the job, nor am I all that knowledgable about things. But I can't let you slide by with that it was the employee's fault that the system went to hell during the 60's to 80's. I've usually seen the whole deferred maintenance issue placed on the doorstep of management and our city leaders and maybe also the riding public who would bitch if the fare had to be hiked. When trains were derailing it was the train operator who was also at risk of getting hurt.
My original post about the older conductor's having a more dangerous job did not mean to suggest that the people nowadays aren't doing a job. I'll be honest with you, MDBF doesn't mean all that much to me. A lot of that is due to the new equipment and the attention given to preventive maintenance and the concern of management to have good stats. Again I'm not putting the men and women down who are riding the road or repairing the track and train. They are the lifeblood of the system, now and always.
As far as the pre-1965 guys walking away with a pot of gold, I'd be interested in checking out what men retired with before the gains made by Mike Quill and the union.
A lot of people busted their hump building the system from day 1 , and a lot of people are doing a damn good job running, maintaining and building the system now. I respect them all, and they pay with their lives for the money they make.
I'm sorry if I've just popped off at what you said.
I had a Uncle who was a Conductor on the BMT during the 40 s and 50 s.He usually worked the Triplex Cars on the Brighton and Sea Beach. They had to stay at their position, until they left the station and had to be there before it entered the station. Luckly the Brighton at that time was all Express South of 57th St, so he had a chance to go inside. And North of 57th Sy, only 2 Subway Stations before Queens Plaza. During Hot Summer Days he enjoyed staying out side on the Astoria Run. He hated the 4th Ave Line because it was a local they used R8-9 Cars, and it was all tunnel. Then. He said the best time he had was one year on the Old Myrtle El with the Gate Cars,especially during the summer. As to the rain and winter I need not say more. Unfortunatly he died of a Heart Attack after finishing a run at the age of 42
Thats why as a kid I thought if I ever became a conductor it would be on the BMT Standards where the door panel was in the middle of the car. I remember the IRT had the same kind of between car operation as the R1-9 on some of their cars (The ones like the R10, I think they were R15 or 16(?)) but I never saw any conductors work those cars, they were always linked to cars with the door controls in the cabs and those cars were always in the middle!!
You know I wonder Sarge whether you had to have a lot of seniority to work the Standards as a conductor? Mainly due to safety, but also because the control panel was kind of cute. It had a lot of buttons, and that little indicator slot where they indication would drop down. I dropped a post in the Feedback slot asking Dave whether he thought an oral history of the people who worked transit in the past would be of interest. I like hearing the extreme story about what got screwed up and where, but what about just recording the life and history of individual workers? I better not get started, I just popped off at Larry.
I Think anything prior to the R10s on the IND and 1948 on the IRT the conductors stood outside between the cars
While the BMT standards did have door controls inside the car, the conductor still had to step outside to watch boarding and disembarking passengers. How did he watch to make sure no one was being dragged as the train left a station? IIRC, the closest drop-sash windows were several feet away from the door control consoles. Although I rode on the standards regularly for two years, I never, ever saw the conductor at a door console.
The R-15s and R-16s were the first postwar cars to have the door controls placed inside the cabs.
Steve, I don't remember the conductor actually leaving the car during boarding. I kind of remember him looking out the door, and I sort of remember that his door was always last to close. I thought he might have had a separate button for that. As for dragging passengers, I was saying to Jeff recently I thought it was TA policy to have the conductors either cross their fingers or carry a rabbit's foot. Seriously though, I sort of remember the conductor always being connected to those controls. Now you really make me curious about hearing how other people remember this.
The conductor was usually in the 2 or 5th car of a 6 car train, usually the th of a 6 car train of B or BX Cars, and his was the last to close. I do remember they ran in 3 car sets, and the only controls that worked were in the middle car of the set. When they added 2 extra cars the usually were A cars. I am not sure when they ran 8 car trains they had 2 conductors, one in the 2nd and one in the 7th, or was that the old HI/Lo Volt 10 car trains, where the conductors were in the 1st & 2nd Car and 9 and 10th Car. It was a long time ago.
An eight-car train of BMT standards required only one conductor - after the entire fleet was retrofitted with MUDC. The center button in the row of five buttons closed the center doors at the conductor's location.
Two conductors were used on IRT trains which had a Hi-V with manual doors at each end. Since the doors on the very ends of a train weren't used with vestibule equipment, each conductor had one manual door to deal with, and operated the rest of the doors remotely, including the center door on the older Hi-Vs.
Having worked the R-10s both in front and on the stirrups, I can look back at my school car pictures proudly. When I worked them I can understand the complaints too. From the caps flying off to the "snap switches" which the schoolboys became assistant conductors opening doors without the loss of indication, the R-10s were truly scary cars for the train crews. Before hearing protection became mandatory, being exposed to the flintstone type wheels of the "Green Machines" caused many a conductor to go restricted duty. The icicles formed on the tip of your nose as you DID have to observe the 3 car length rule no matter how bad the weather was. With the exception of the outboard controls, the ceiling vent handles that were frequently stuck, a one in five chance to light up the side signs and maybe a one in ten for the neon green, they were durable cars; they were fast, stopped very good, had nice public address add ons and in the case of the overhauled cars, were bright and cheery. I'll give a two trigger salute to one of the NYCTA's finer cars.
The only time I ever saw an illuminated side sign on an R-10 was on a GOH unit. I rode on scores of A trains of those cars, and not once did I ever see a backlit side sign.
I'll second your opinion: there will never be another car like the R-10. They were indeed the champions of the A line.
I was "out there" because I worked R10's on occasion during my short 14 month career as a conductor. One day, a round trip on the F due to the R46 truck problems. I was exhausted after all that climbing, and the oldtimers did it all day every day. If you held on to the grabirons, it was perfectly safe. The conductor got a much better view of the train from high atop that perch vs. in the cab as they do now. But in those days, there were many more injuries due to passengers/vandals throwing objects at the conductor. Remember the conductors wearing hardhats on the LL with the R1/9's?
I rode on the R-7/9s on the LL, even rode in the same car as the conductor, and on every occasion, he wore his regular hat. In fact, every conductor I ever saw perched on the step plates of the R-1/9s and R-10s wore a regular hat. I'm not surprised about the hard hats, though. Did management have any problems with that?
At least that F train ran express in Queens, didn't it?
#5 of 6 is now available form CitySearch. You'll need to make a couple of freiends to meet the $15 min, unless you want 4 of these Fun Passes. This time it's "Energy ... 2 billion kilowatts ..." and incl seven very small photos.
Mr t__:^)
Does anyone know aproximately when the Newark City Subway is supposed to take delivery of the new Light Rail Vehicles?
The Hudson-Bergen line is supposed to open in March, 2000, so I think they have priority for new cars. That would mean that Newark would get them in mid-2000. I don't think the exact date has been set yet.
Somewhere on this site, either in the FAQ or in a thread, there was mention of the reconfiguring of the 36th St station in Brooklyn, including a track diagram of the original proposed connection at 40th St---can anybody save me search time, does anyone recall where?
Check out the "Line by Line" section of this website and click on "BMT 4th Ave Line BMNR", and scroll down to where the 36th St. stop is described. There is small diagram showing the current track configuration and the proposed one.
Thanks---I'd have looked for hours, but not there, don't ask why.
While I was waiting for the Broad-Ridge spur the other day (I wanted
to go to the Chinatown stop, it was easier than walking from 15th
& Market) I remembered the time as a kid that I saw a guy jump down
onto the tracks to pick up an umbrella. Is this a regular thing?
When was the last time anyone saw a regular person jump onto the
tracks in an act of stupidity? :|
I used to do it all the time on the SIRT (now Staten Island Railway) to cross the tracks or to releive myself.
Now I'm older and wiser, my friend even got a ticket for peeing when we were on the way home from HS Basketball practice. But then the SIRT with 30min headways is not the same....
Ever hear the story of thre guy on a subway platforn and the third rail?
For that matter, I've heard it's really true - anyone care to comment.
Its true!!!
When I was in the Police Academy we went on a field trip to the morgue at Bellevue Hosp. They also had a morgue museum attached to it. They actually had the so called member on display in a jar with the burn marks on it!!!
Ever hear the story of thre guy on a subway platforn and the third rail?
I doubt what reached that far would be enough of a..er..stream to conduct all that well.
However, I could see the possiblity of a fatality if the victim was standing between the rails. Assuming, of course, that he didn't get run over by a train first.
CH...
Impure water is an excellent conductor of electricity 'NUFF SAID
This happened (or may have happened -- I'll explain in a moment) on the CTA's Brown Line in the early 1990s. The Brown Line (nee Ravenswood L) is mostly elevated, but towards the outer end of the line runs at ground level in a fenced-off right-of-way. However, where the ROW crosses streets, there is no gate to keep people from entering onto the ROW. The surface-level route goes through various immigrant neighborhoods, one being Korean, and one night, a Korean gentleman, three sheets to the wind from a party and walking home, heard the call of nature. He was passing a grade crossing of the Ravenswood line and entered upon it to have some privacy to, um, take care of his urgent business. This is known because, though there was no evidence as to exactly where the electric current of the third rail entered his body, his body was found right next to the third rail with his pants zipper open and his, um, privy member exposed.
The P&W (now Septa) Norristown line is overrunning third rail with
no fences along a major part of the route. I remember riding between
stations on a right of way with zero separation from a suburban
road - just a small grassy separation. For sure, that can't be good.
[When was the last time anyone saw a regular person jump onto the
tracks in an act of stupidity?]
You can see it on almost a daily basis at the LIRR's Ronkonkoma station. This is a two-track station with two side platforms and a center island platforms, on an east-west axis. Trains open their doors on both sides. There are two crossovers, one at the approximate center of the platforms and one at the extreme west end. This arrangement means that people riding in the head (east) cars in the evenings have a long walk to use the crossovers if their cars are parked in the lot located on the northeast side of the station (assuming, as is usually the case, that their trains use the south track). So some of them climb down to track level and use that as a quicker way across. How lazy some people can be ...
About a month ago, I saw a real mental midget do just that. He dropped his beeper on D-4 track at Continental Ave at 8:30 AM. He then went after it. Considering that he was at mid-station, I doubt that if a train operator saw him, he'd be able to stop in time.
The midget did the right thing. There is plenty of clearance between track D4 and D3 at 71st-Continental Avenues. Stand between the I-beams. Go for the beeper!!!
YES! Get that union member a three day paid vacation!
9/25/99
Yeah! and that mental midget will probably get that "run down feeling". That brings to mind a thing I saw on PATH in the early 80's. Some "Einstein" was waiting at the 33rd St station sitting on the platform with legs dangling over the edge. This would be about the second car on the south end of the train. Well the train came in the station past that blind curve when entering and although numb nuts got up in time,the engineer dumped when he saw the dummy. I entered the first car to peer out the front window and when the engineer came to the cab he still was shook up and cursing to the conductor.I guess when they were giving out brains,"Dummy" was at the end of the line!
Bill Newkirk
Last November 7th, Simon Billis and I were at the RF window of a northbound #2 train at 72nd Street, when what should pop out from between two pillars but an obviously stoned and befuddled man, who proceeded to totter about on the tracks right in front of the train, oblivious to the blast of the horn from the T/O. We waited, then we waited some more while this guy wandered aimlessly about the tunnel mouth. Finally he disappeared off into the gloom and we went on our way.
Wayne
He was at the front of the line and held the door for everyone else!
Naah, not him - I doubt he could find the door!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Real Smart with a Northbound train entering D-4 track at around 45-50 MPH!!
Watching the premiere of the new TV Show 'Third Watch' on NBC last night, I caught some REALLY screwed up transit references. A scene of a woman giving borth on a train.
The location is described as a '#2 train at 92nd St and Lex'
The two problems? The 2 doesn't run on the Lex (usually), and there is no 92nd St station.
As the paramedics enter the station (which I'll ID later when I freeze-frame the VCR) we see signs for the F train. Above the platform, the sign indicates the train goes to Queens. The train itself is a set of R40 or R42, signed up as a Z (they shoot the series in NY) with a destination of 'Broad St' on the lower sign. They then tell the motorman (when they realize the baby's coming too fast) to 'Express the train to 125th St.'
-Hank
Well there is a abandon station at about 92nd on the Broadway line, and 125th on #1 would be an interesting place for the 911 guys to try and get mother & baby off ... maybe they're play with us on purpose ?
It might be the kind of thing I might do to see if anyone is paying attention.
Mr t__:^)
I was watching Dharma and Greg on Tuesday(yes, I am ashamed) and saw an interior that looked like an R-40 with signs for a light green "N" train.
Yeah, that's supposed to be either the MUNI subway, or BART.
-Hank
Those cars looked more like R-38s to me.
The abandoned IRT station is 91st St. It's the same old story: the producers figure the average viewer won't know notice the inconsistencies.
[ Watching the premiere of the new TV Show 'Third Watch' on NBC last
night, I caught some REALLY screwed up transit references. A scene of
a woman giving borth on a train. ]
Yeah, I noticed all that also. It's not like they even made an attempt at accuracy. How hard would it have been to even make a fake red #2 sign and paste it over the Z (even outside the glass)? Not that it would make sense either, for the other reasons, but at least it would seem like they were trying.
I can see if they do something that a railfan might think is a horrendous, like using B division equipment for an A division line, but even the layest of laypeople can see that a "Z" and a "2" are not the same thing...
Of course, what makes even less sense to me is that the show seems to depict the a precinct (55 -- non existant) and the fire and EMS people working all over the city.. Clearly not realistic to respond to one call in building with 46 floors, and another on the Richmond Hill LIRR station, and earlier one on the #2/Z/F or whatever train it is..
Well, 55 would be a Bronx precient, and there is no Engine Co 57. About the only thing they got right in the first 20 minutes was radio protocol. I still haven't finished watching the tape.
-Hank
[ About the only thing they got right in the first 20 minutes was radio
protocol ]
No, that was totally bogus as well. They would never say "We need EMS down here, big time!". They'd say shots fired, they'd call the victims "Aided", and request a bus. Of course, if they did get the radio language right, the audience wouldn't be able to follow.
As I said, in the first 20 minutes. No one got shot in the first 20 minutes. I WAS surprised that the 'Bosco is a dick' got past the network censors, a few years ago, we never would have seen that word on TV. Although I suppose it could be offered that 'dick' is slang for detective...
-Hank
Anybody remember 'True Blue'? It was a series about an NYPD ESU team based in lower Manhattan. It was produced by Sonny Grosso who was one half of the real "French Connection" detectives. Anyhow, it was the forerunner to 'Third Watch", but seemed to have more likable characters than this new incarnation.
BTW, the officer's name "Bosco" is a Hollywood "in joke". TV's biggest and most profitable creator/producer of cop dramas is Steven Bosco ("Hill Street Blues", "NYPD Blue" etc.).
Another "in joke" was the name of the precinct's dalmation: Mantooth. I think that's a reference to actor Randolph Mantooth of the popular 70s EMS show "Emergency!"
Doug aka BMTman
9/25/99
I believe you mean Steven BOCHCO. Of Hill Street Blues fame.
Bill Newkirk
Watch NYPD Blue they use worse language
Finding inaccuracies in movies, TV shows, books, etc. depends on what your area of expertise (or interest) may be. We're subway fans, so we notice this stuff. I'll be the average New Yorker doesn't (and there's no way the average person from Council Bluffs, IA would!).
I'm sure that policemen (Sarge Jeffrey?) find all kinds of problems in programs with police themes.
Don't get me started on the meteorological inaccuracies in Twister!
They usually film where the city and MTA give them permission to,
I was offended in the previews where they called the train operator and Idiot. I did not watch the show because of that.
By the way the train operator was right he should not have moved the train they should have moved her to the ambulance where they have the equipment and supplies needed.
You are right. What you mentioned is correct procedure.
These movies and TV shows like to spice things up and do something spectacular -- like having a train evacuated and run non-stop to 125th Street for a pregnant passenger. We would never see that in practice. Give me a break!
Doug aka BMTman
Not to mention the lack of respect for the train crew.
The errors in the "Third Watch" premiere did not confine themselves to the Subway System, here are some others for everyone to sample:
There is no 55th PCT in the NYPD, and if there were it would be in Bronx somewhere, not in some ambigious Manhattan locale.
Even under the best driving circumstances, how can anyone drive from the Midtown Area to streets lined with single-family homes in less than 90 seconds? Those are the driving backgrounds for some of the vehicle-interior shots.
The FDNY EMS division uses modular ambulances, but on pickup rather than van chasis.
THe FDNY EMS division has its own quarters separate from the Fire Supression Division. Given the animosity expressed toward the EMS people by the members of the department they were merged into, it will be a long time before they are domiciled together.
They could have hired any of one the regular NYCSUBWAY.ORG visitors to be technical advisors but they didn't. I guess since many of the non-New York-knowing people who watch these shows can't tell the difference and the producers aren't going to spend money to satisfy a very distinct, intelligent and demanding minority.
More slip up to come, the police women (I don't know their names yet) let go of her PTT (Push To Talk) button but was still talking to Central. Speaking of which they have yet to call Central "Central" on the radio and if you ever hear NYPD calls, it is used on almost every other transmission.
No 10-13 call...
You guys are getting me into looking for fubs!!
Ok Guys we know it because we are interested and look at realistically. I have friends in LA who work at the studios and they take (the studios) get what the cities can give them for filming at the time, and really do any of the TV shows shot in NY have real police precents. Look at the ones in the last few years. Law and Order, NYPD Blue, Brooklyn South, all are fictional precents. Am I right Sgt Rosen?
The exteriors are real, but the precinct numbers are fictional. This is done to alert real cops on the beat that when they see a cop car -- for instance, with 23rd Precinct IDs on the sides -- they will know that that is a "movie prop" car. In this way they would disregard the vehicle it if they should find one at what might look like a "crime scene", but is actually a movie/TV location shoot.
I think the most popular phony precinct numbers are 23rd and 55th. I have yet to hear of any others. "23rd Precinct" cars were used in most recent films like "Die Hard With a Vengence", and "King of New York". And cars with those markings were used in the "True Blue" series.
Doug aka BMTman
How about he 14 in Barney Miller and the 15 in NYPD BLUE
14 Was also used in the second Ninja Turtles film.
wasn t the 14 the old Broadway brooklyn Local ?
Yep, it sure was.
Hey at least the Cosby Show gets the Astoria Line Right
As I mentioned last week about Ghost with Whoopee Goldberg, check it out it is on TBS this Sat or Sunday at 8PM EST and see a haunted Train
What was the name of the Jean Claude Vandamme movie that came out in 95-or 96, where he played the part of twins. one was a Russian Mafia Hitman the other a NYPD Cop in Brighton Beach. The used the Brighton Beach Station for the plot, but used I think it was a Philly el for the film. Most New Yorkers should have known better. at least the got the Q Markers right
Bob: I'm glad someone else saw that film. The street scenes where shot underneath the Brighton El but the scenes on the el itself where done on SEPTA's Market-Frankford Line using M-3's carrying a large yellow "Q."
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry at least the got the Yellow Q Right, but why Philly,? O well
I only attacked the relevant points to this board. On fire-l, I hit several of the others. The equipment types don't really matter. Location does. And if you're going to say it's a #2 train with a problem, at LEAST have the train signed up as a #2!
TV will always fictionalize EXACT locations, especially in medical and emergency shows. Think about it; would you like to be a cop in the 27, and have to come out every day having autograph hounds looking for Jerry Orbach to leave the place?
The real problem is, they cover WAY to much area. It seems like no matter where the crime is, cops from one precient investigate it. That's how bodies found in Harlem and bodies found ain Battery Park fall under the 27.
-Hank
9/28/99
Speaking of Die hard..With a vengeance. There's the subway station sequence with R-30's coming in signed up as #1. Well if you have it taped and play the scenes of Bruce Willis running through the train with the bomb,Bruce gets to the last car and after smashing storm door glass chucks the bomb on the tracks. USE YOUR SLOW MOTION FOR THIS. While the front of the train is signed up for the #1,the last car says (C) and the signs aren't centered properly. OH well! That's Hollywood.
Bill Newkirk
Hew, let's not forget the two cabs on the car end. At least they didn't use cars covered with graffitti.
-Hank
9/29/99
PURE HOLLYWOOD !!
Bill Newkirk
Speaking of subway mistakes, did anybody catch the opening scenes of "Now and Again." John Goodman is waiting for a train at the Grand Central Shuttle area on track 4 and gets accidentally pushed in front of the train and dies. It's later explained that he was hit by an F train.
-- Kirk
Is there a list anywhere online of the MTA's radio frequencies? I assume your average scanner would work in the tunnels, as every T/O has a radio...
Thanks, Dave
It does. The TA uses paired frequencies, one for train to dispatch, one for dispatch to train. You also pick up NYPD TB.
I have the frequencies at home, email me and I'll send it to you.
-Hank
Look at our Transfer Station to find other relevant subway web pages. In this case the one you want is:
http://www.panix.com/~clay/scanning/frequencies/nycta.shtml
-Dave
It seems that the "E" line is being given extremely substandard service in relation to the number of passengers who ride this line.
It is at its worst from appx. 6 PM to 8 PM, where "E" line cars get reduced from two to one car, resulting in extreme crush load conditions, almost always causing a delay. The "B", "C" and "D" lines don't go to one car until sometime after 8 PM (9 PM???)
Is it just myself or are there other "E" riders that are shouting bloody murder?
P.S. I waited appx. 15 minutes for an "E" at 7:40PM last night. The first "E"...single car and out of service. The second "E" was crush load, and left some riders waiting for yet another who-knows-when-another "E" car will come. I got frustrated and immediately caught a #39 one block from Copley Station. Much more comfortable ride there. About seven non-E two-car consists came during that time.
Nick
I'm with you on that one, Nick. Off-peak crush loading is worse than rush hour!!
hehe i'm not a huge fan or the green line anyway. i don't like it and never have. it's not a normal subway and it's always packed. i'd rather walk than ride the green line. the one thing that can be said for the green line however is the A/C works good.
Just my dos pesos
Later,
Matt
I lived in Lechmere for two years, and was not impressed at all with the level of service. I think the problem was that the MBTA can only store so many cars at the Lechmere loop, and doesn't run any additional cars on the line from other yards. Can anyone substantiate my guess??
Dave
I think they only run certain cars out to lechmere. whether it's because they can't hold them out there or the fact that most people(tourists or sports fans) heading out that get off at north station and science park so they figure that they run enough trains or because some of the new cars they ordered can't run on the el..
And just a sidenote about how bad the green line is, try waiting on a packed government center plat in july where the temp is close to a hundred and a the cars are packed and the morons over at the mbta send two seperate green line trains that run just to government center. not that i'm complaining or anything.
Matt
I like riding the green line when I am in Boston because it is so old. It appears to me to be a tough line to operate. Four two track lines merge into one two track line in downtown Boston. The Riverside line is the busiest line on the system. The congestion is bad and is made worse because people are boarding from low level platforms and climbing the stairs into the car. When they start using the low floor type 8 LRV's and modify the stations to suit, boarding speeds may increase. I Think they turn back cars at Goverment Street Station because the 1920's Lechmere terminal cannot handle the volume of cars at rush hour.
When I was in Boston I liked the Green line because the underground portion had such frequent service... on the other hand the trains were always crammed even evenings and middays. Also there was heavy traffic going past Government Center (esp to North Station), but half the cars turned there.
...this brings to question why they do not run three car trains in peak hours - esp on the D and E trains to Lechmere. The ridership is certainly there. Is there a car shortage?
I notice that 55 LRVs are due to be replaced by 100 Breda cars when the order is complete. Does that mean longer trains on the Green Lines or more service? How about service to Arborway - is that finally a dead issue? If not why were 100 cars ordered?
Finally is the MBTA getting ready to place an order for new trolleybues?
Are the Boeings still in service there???
I was in Boston in June 1999. I saw Boeing LRV's in service during the rush hour. However, I think they had a builders plate that said they had been overhauled.
The Boeings were overhauled in '96 by Amerirail, they replaced sliding doors with folding ones and added air conditioning to them.
The Green line does not run triple cars because the outbound stations (streetcar service) do not have lond enough platforms. However, this is changiung right now on the D line, since platforms are getting extensions, and raised in some places. This is so they can use the wheelchair ramp that comes out of the type 8 low-floor area doorway. But it will take awhile before all stations are completed. Maybe then we will see triple cars, but who knows. As for the C, D, and E....most stations aren't long enough either for triple cars, and who knows when the MBTA will get around to them.
As for the Arborway line, there were some postings on here about people who want the servie restored...telephone the MBTA and voice your complaints. The tracks past Heath St. are still there, better do something before they decide to remove them.
The Gov't center station will be renovated in the next couple of years. The MBTA has had public hearings about that, but unfortunatly I missed them. But there should be more, and I will try to post something if I find out more.
Also one more note about the type 8s...they are in more frequent service now...they are running at least 4 or 5 times a day. Thanks to the Ryder Cup Golf tournament, they were even run this weekend....sometimes to trains at the same time; I saw 3803 with 3682 going outbound, while waiting for an inbound train. Then cars 3802 and 3804 came to the inbound platform! So far the MBTA has received 12 of it's order of 100 cars, but only half of the delivered cars have passed acceptance testing so far. -Nick
Sorry to say, Nick, that it's too late to save the Arborway. The T claims that the street is too narrow, and that emergency vehicles will have a problem getting through. Also they claim that merchants are opposed to the service, since less parking spots are available. A true shame, of course, but this has been a done deal for a number of years. No amount of phone calling will work. Probably the only thing that would bring it back are a Governor and Mayor that order it back... and to the best of my knowldege, Governor Cellucci and Mayor Menino don't care. What a shame.
See My forthcoming cost on the Green Line E thread for more info on Arborway.
There are several reasons why many cars turn back at Government. The major one however is the ability to keep cars on schedule. Two lines can share Lechmere and use a siding there to pass each other. A third line extended to that location would have to share track space with one of the others and both would be subject to delays. The passenger load for that section doesn't require more service than presently offered. Lastly, the use of Government and Park loops allows more frequent service on the B (Commonwealth Av.) route which is the most heavily travelled, especially on the inner end.
Rob,
Yes, there is a car shortage. And yes, the resumption of service to Arborway is (unfortunately) dead. For political reasons, and not valid transit issues. Hopefully when the 100 Type-8s are all in service (and this has been a slow process to get even a few on-line!) there will be some three-car trains. But I wouldn't expect it for at least two years, which is the current schedule to get all the Bredas in service. Also, I suspect they'll have to start rehabbing the oldest Type-7 (Kinki) cars, which will slow down any surplus of cars.
The E line is probably the worst nightmare a transit planner could have.
First it is a split operation, with the car line running from Lechmere to Heath and the 39 bus from Copley to Arborway.
Second, it has several loading peaks, some of which happen simultaneously.
Third, it is more influenced by traffic than any of the other routes.
Traffic:
6:00 to 9:00 AM Inbound Arborway to Downtown Commuters Bus/Trolley
7:30 to 8:30 AM Inbound Arborway to Longwood/Northeastern Students Bus
6:30 to 9:00 AM Outbound Downtown to Prudential/Longwood Commuters Trolley
6:30 to 8:30 AM Outbound Downtown to Northeastern/Longwood Students Trolley
There is a mini-peak at every Northeastern class change, shoppers traffic to Prudential and downtown and other traffic to the hospitals around Longwood.
Between 2:00 PM and 4:00 PM Boston Latin and some of the colleges in the Longwood area dominate the traffic, while from 4:00 to 6:00 the trolleys carry heavy inbound commuter traffic and the buses carry heavy traffic outbound. After 6:00 PM the focus shifts to the buses since the majority of the people are headed outbound to Jamaica Plain. This is were the split service fails, since the buses are there (and not crowded) but are not being ridden inbound. The car line has only a few cars scheduled, and these are far from their home base in case of a breakdown. Since there is little traffic outbound on the cars they run on a 10 minute or greater headway and cannot absorb a big instantaneous load at any single point.
The whole operation is more personnel intensive than running the line with cars alone. In addition having the yard at Arborway in operation gives the option of filling inbound gaps with extras timed to catch the event related loads.
Running the E as an Arborway - Park St. car service with supplemental service from Heath St., Brigham Circle or Northeastern as needed has the following advantages.
Rush hour requires about 20 Arborway Cars as opposed to about 35 buses. Heath St requires about 4 cars which can be 'run as directed' since the articulated cars can run singles to Arborway on a tighter headway than the prior trains of PCCs. (20 LRVs or 7s can do the work of 13 2-car trains of PCCs) Likewise, only 2 or 3 cars are needed for Northeastern/Brigham extras) Car service also controls traffic (the bully factor) and discourages double parking on Center St. Through passengers don't have to change vehicles. Terminating at Park St isolates E cars from north end delays and allows better outbound headways. Cleveland Circle Service can be returned to Lechmere creating a better service to there (short route more isolated from street delays).
Why do the City and the MBTA want to keep busses on the Arborway Line?
Because they dod't like to admit they were WRONG!
Here's the scoop on the Green Line. First of all, all cars, including the new Type-8s, can run on the El. In fact, the Type-8s now in service are assigned to Riverside, which runs to Lechmere.
The T has only so many cars to make service. If they take from another line to beef up Heath/Lechmere service, it will decrease the number available for the other lines. That of course is the rush-hour story. During shoulder and off-peak hours, they reduce service to save money... labor costs, etc. It's a money issue, nothing else.
I am planning a much anticipated and long overdue trip to New York (I'm from Toronto), probably in October. If anyone out there could take a few minutes and answer some questions, I'd be very grateful. First of all, is there a particular weekend in the fall where something noteworthy is occurring? I'm looking at either the weekend of October 14-18 or 21-25. Secondly, can you buy a) a daypass metrocard at LaGuardia or Newark Airports; and b) are they valid on Triboro Coach lines? I noticed on my most recent MTA map (Spring 1998) that the Q33 from LaGuardia to the Jackson Heights Stn. is operated by Triboro, or should I have lots of coins available? Is the City Hall Station (No. 6) now open to the public? Any help on the above or any other pertinent info. would be much appreciated. Since I'm travelling alone this trip, I can pretty much devote most of the time to riding and exploring more of the NYC subway. Thanks!
Well, here are some of the answers. You can buy a MetroCard day pass at almost any Hudson News outlet and many other locations, so you can probably get one at LaGuardia. I don't know of any location at Newark where you can get one, however, since they're in New Jersey and out of the normal reach of the MTA. And the City Hall station on the #6 line is not open to passengers at the present time. Also, by the time you arrive the Transit Museum in Brooklyn may have closed for its makeover; call them first if that would influence your schedule.
As to the bus question, you'll probably get a faster answer over on BusTalk, although there are a number of posters who frequent both boards and might be able to answer that one for you. I can't!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You can bus the day pass in the main terminal of Hudson News at LaGuardia. and it is good on the Q33 or any franchise bus in the City. I had the same questions when I came into New York this past June. I bought a weekly pass since I was in for 6 days. It really was useful
All your other questions were answered by Anon_e_mouse and bob, so I'll just tell you this. You can Buy Metrocards online, but the purchasing minimum is $15, so you'll have to buy 4 day passes, or buy them in conjunction with something else. I always buy a $15 card and Day Pass when needing a day pass online.
A quick suggestion- take the elevated #7 into Manhattan- a little slower, but a much nicer view....a good introduction to the city...
Thanks to all who've answered my questions. I'm no stranger to NYC and especially not to the subway. I know the #7 well and have taken it before when flying in/out of La Guardia. The last time I was in NYC was January 1996 and we had transfers included in our airfare so we didn't need to rely on the MTA for that portion of the trip. However, since it was freezing cold that time, I used the weather as a good excuse to hop on the subway whenever I could! I've been to the Transit Museum in Brooklyn several times so if it isn't open this time, I'll use the time to explore other areas. I'd like to venure out on lines that I've haven't done before - such as the #3 to New Lots but I've heard that that neighbourhood isn't terribly safe? Any thoughts on good elevated runs where I'll likely survive to make the return trip?!!! I've done most of the routes in the Bronx: 2, 4, 5; #7 & J/Z in Queens; D in Brooklyn, and a portion of a couple of others. I'd like to concentrate on Brooklyn this trip.
Hey Ian. Be sure to take the M which runs on J/Z
line just to view the remarkable crossover at Myrtle
which we've been talking about here. It only runs
in rush hours, as I found out to my surprise when I
waited to pick it up in Brooklyn when the bridge
reopened. Why doesn't anybody tell me these things?
I think the Franklin Avenue shuttle will be
reopening by the time you get here. That will be
something special. As far as the New Lots line, I
always feel safe if I ride in the front in the
motorman's car, or in the conductor's position. On
any line, I am uncomfortable riding in the last
cars.I'd be interested in other people's advice on the
New Lots. Look I'm white, and I have ridden lines
where I am the only white person in the car, and I
am aware of it, but I kind of know what I am doing
and don't project too much fear or
self-consciousness. A lot of the safety and comfort
factor comes from within. I don't know if you're
into buses, but if you check the Bus Talk side you'll
find on recent posts lists of the location of some
of the bus garages. I don't see the G on your list,
that's a curious line that meanders its way through
Brooklyn and Queens. Actually Ian check out this
site, they do a line by line analysis and I think
cover the stations also. I don't whether reading
about it would take some of the fun of exploring out
things. Get yourself a set of bus maps in case you
venture out of the subway. Go down to the Flatbush
Ave terminal of the #2 (I think that's the number)
on the IRT, go up on the street, grab the Q-35 Green
Bus lines and go take a spin out to the Rockaways.
That has a nice stretch where it barrels down to the
bridge. In the Rockaways, right by the Rockaway
Park station of the A there is the Q53 bus, which is
an express sort of bus that will take you through
Howard Beach up into Woodside Queens. That's a nice
express ride which is just a local fare, or a
freebee with the Fun Pass. Check out Coney Island
amusement area, Prospect Park, Sheepshead Bay
fishing fleet................. Have a fun and safe
trip!!!
The 3 to New Lots doesn't give me the safest feeling the world either, and I've only ridden it one time in the last 20 years or so. In defense of at least one of its patrons, however, I was riding inbound (seated next to a door on a moderately crowded train on a Saturday or Sunday) to Manhattan on the return of my exploration trip in the spring of '96 when it became obvious that a group of young passengers were trying to figure out how to relieve me of my wallet. Another passenger, probably closer to their age than mine but still significantly older than them, also became aware of what was going on and simply placed himself between me and them, moving back and forth as they tried to circle around him. Eventually the youngsters gave up and got off, whether at their destination or simply to change cars in search of an easier target I don't know. But if I had a travelling companion who wanted to see the line I'd probably be willing to go back. Now, with the daypass, I might just do that anyway, even by myself, since I didn't leave fare control at the terminal because I didn't want to pay another fare.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You should be safe on any line during day light hours. Paul's advice about using the first, or conductor's car should be taken to heart for those how are tourists. However, any car would do for a native New Yorker.
Check out the great excursion trip aboard a Rockaway Beach bound A train. Certainly you will want to do the suburban-like route of the Brighton Line's D train (good photo ops by Prospect Park and all stops southbound).
Also, you might want to do the Franklin Shuttle (do to be opened in October), which would connect you to the D train from the Rockaway line.
And then there is the elevated Culver line (Coney Island to Ditmas Ave.) which you can change to from the D at Coney Island station. For that matter you can also jump on a West End Line (B) or Sea Beach Line (N) train that would get you either to the main hub of downtown Brooklyn (Pacific St./Atlantic Ave.) or locations in Manhattan.
Here's a shameless plug: If you are going to be doing most of your travels in and around Brooklyn, might I suggest you stay at the Brooklyn Marriot Hotel, which is located on Adams Street (aka Brooklyn Bridge Blvd.) just a short walk to the bridge and down the block from the Jay Street train station (and a couple blocks from the Transit Museum).
Good hunting!
Doug aka BMTman
My favorite is taking the B from Manhatten to Coney Island. have a Nathans, and then take the D Back, or the F. The part of the F is the El Portion betwen 4th Ave and back to the tunnel after Smith 9th. But to me sometimes I think the F is too slow and I still like riding over the bridge on B-D-Q
If you're going to Brooklyn on a weekday, a ride that's not to be missed is on the Brighton "Q" Express, where Slant R40s make up the entire fleet. Some of these trains approach 50MPH on the express run.
Wayne
The West End riding on the Sea Beach Express tracks was a wild ride I took last month. I didn't know the West End used the Sea Beach tracks until they told us so when we boarded the train in Coney Island. Of course, I also got a little ticked off because here the West End was running express on the Sea Beach tracks and the Sea Beach, supposedly an express train in the past, was running local. I got a little chapped by it all because of my emotional attachment to the Sea Beach.
However Sea Beach Man had to admit that it was a very interesting ride, though I did so reluctantly.
We don't call it ZOO LOTS for nothing
Also don't forget the highly underrated L train to Canarsie. A not-at-all boring local run with neat fairly fast curves on the underground section in Brooklyn with the unusual Wilson Ave section with the LIRR tracks right next to it,then the rising out of the tunnel to Bway Junction, through the separated Atlantic Ave station down to the terminal at Rockaway Parkway...all in all a real New York original...
Right about that Lou. And there is also the neat switch remnant between the LIRR and the BMT just several yards north of the southbound New Lots Ave. station on the L line.
Also, if you time your trip on the Canarsie Line on a Tuesday or Thursday, chances are you'll get to see some New York & Atlantic freight movements on the LIRR's Bay Ridge line that runs with the L from Wilson Ave. south to New Lots Ave. (the freight line runs underground by Altantic Ave./B'way/East NY junction).
Finally, there is the photo ops at 105th Street where the Canarsie assumes the look of a suburban line by running at street grade for a couple of stops.
Doug aka BMTman
Ian, There are a lot of good suggestions for you that have been submitted by others ... I like the out to Coney Isl on one line, walk to beach, grab a Nathan's & take a differnt line back BEST.
If you have more time a trip I took this Summer was very nice:
Took IND to Far Rockaway, caught LI Bus N33 for very nice ride to Long Beach (lots of fine places to stop along the way), take City of Long Beach Bus to boardwalk, walk back to LIRR for trip to Atlantic Ave (above ground until Jamaica).
(only caution Far Rockaway isn't the best place in town so know when the LI Bus will be in 516-766-6722 ... about every half hour, ours came in right on time ... there's also a coffee shop at Token Booth to hang out in)(the area improves almost as soon as you leave the area of the subway station).
Second suggestion: Do the Guanuas Cannal Bridge on the F. Lots of interesting tracks & nice view, especially if you're headed toward Manhattan.
Mr t__:^)
Hey Thurston: Are you a travel agent or someone. I could have used your expertise last month. Though I saw a great deal of New York, a couple of things you described never crossed my mind. When I get to NY again I'll expect the same advice you gave to our colleague. OK?
Travel Agent ... no. I'm a Swamp Yankee from the sticks who's been here for 25 years. My philosophy is ... how can you live in NYC and not take advantage of all the great stuff, e.g. Statue of Liberty, Broadway, Times Square, The Village, a ride on the subway. I'm hoping my daughter will let ME do the class trips with my grandson !
Unlike some of my dear buff friends I'll try to work in some sight seeing with my ride (keeps the wife quite while we're riding because there's a second goal).
I'll give you another example ... a small goup of us did a Field Trip to the Newark City Subway & Path system which incl Hoboken. That part was very enjoyable, but the iceing on the cake for me was the view of Manhattan from the other side of the river ... all the lights were on!
So Fred, the next time you're in town ask away and we'll try to find the BEST way for you to get there.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: You've got a deal. Believe me, you'll be solicited for your expertise.
I don't mind a bit ... all of us here know that riding the subway can be fun ;-)
except when the air conditioning goes out and the train stalls under the riverwhen it is 90 degrees out,during the big 7.5 Times square Earthquake that John Scarboro talked about in his book
Did you get to go to Ellis Island? They did a magnificent job of restoring the main building to its 1918-1924 appearance. I go out there whenever I'm in the city and highly recommend it.
The boat ride is the best value in town because you get Statue of Liberty & Ellis Island for one price. It goes to the grand lady first so plan your trip accordingly.
P.S. #1, #5 or N/R drops you off for a short walk in the park to the ticket booth.
Mr t__:^)
Steve and Thurston: Yes I went to both the Statue of Liberty and Ellis Island. The latter was intriguing. I imagined my grandparents new to this country and not knowing a soul arriving. They must have been nervous and worried. Thank God they came. It enabled me to become an American in the greatest country in the world.
My last class trip was with my youngest daughter, now in college at Stonybrook. At the last minute I got bumped as one of the official chaperons. That ment no school bus ride for me, so Lorraine & I did breakfest, hopped the LIRR, then caught #1 to South Ferry. We arrived at about the same time as the rest of the class.
While at Ellis Island I stood at the "High Boy" & put my daughter on the other side playing the part of her great-great grandpa who was arriving from Sweden (she said his name, then I changed it so that he left as Otto Nilsen). For those that don't know, they've saved one of the High Boys that everyone had to line up at in the "big room".
Sorry to the rest of you for off topic.
Mr t__:^)
Sounds like you had one heck of a day. Good show.
I feel like killing two birds with one BB (sorry felt like that saynig needed an update)-- so when I do the Franklin Shuttle trip, I plan to get off at the Botanic Garden stop and walk over to BMA to see what got Rudy's ire up.
Actually, I plan to meet with the curator and see if the museum would be intersted in doing an exhibition based on my regurgitated lunch ;-)
Anyone else game?
Doug aka BMTman
As a Roman Catholic I am furious that such a display of the Virgin Mary can be demonstrated with dung around the picture. I think it's in veryu poor taste and I'm livid with anger. It's just not right.
I don't believe that the exhibition - elephant Number Two and all - should actually be censored. Infringing on First Amendment rights is one of those things that shouldn't be started in the first place.
But just because the Brooklyn Museum has the right to hold this exhibition doesn't mean they deserve taxpayer subsidies. That's the real issue, as I see it. Come to think of it, I fail to understand why certain levels of "culture," mainly the high- and middle-brow sorts, have to be subsidized at all. The money would be far more usefully spent on tranist improvements.
Who decided that picture is of the Virgin Mary? Does any idiot get to designate something a religious symbol?
I've decided to punish the exhibition by ignoring it. The Mayor has chosen to publicize it, then cut off money so my daughter won't be able to take an art class there next spring. Does that make sense?
PS -- Rudy is also planning to use the soccer fields on the Parade Grounds as a parking lot for a temporary stadium for the mini-Mets. He also got the school construction money diverted from Brooklyn. What is this, a vendetta against Brooklyn kids?
Remember Rudy is from Flatbush. He rather see the Mini Yanks there then in SI
Rudy is a great guy. He cleaned up the sleaze in Times Square and that is GREAT. The subway are super clean now and no crimes are committed in NYC. With this he can save New Yorker's money on New York's finest. A regular Fiorello LaGuardia, the little flower.
Mr Train Control: Right On!!!! The difference between 1991 when I was last in New York, and 1999 when I returned was striking. The subways, though dirty in certain stations, were much cleaner. The cars certainly were. The streets were cleaner and I didn't see any damn panhandlers at Union Square-14th Street hassling people for money. There was a presence of the NYC police, very friendly, despite what I had been led to believe. It was a different city and a much better place. This is one place where the perspective of visitors might take front and center over people who live year round in the city. You don't notice the changes as much as we do. And there were massive changes-----all for the better. GO RUDY.
[re NYC in 1991 vs. 1999]
I've worked in the city since 1994 and I can easily notice the difference. Streets are cleaner and there are fewer abandoned buildings and vacant storefronts. Skells are still around, but most of them today are pathetic rather than menacing. Construction cranes are a common sight - five years ago, they were as scarce as whooping cranes :-) There are also far more tourists around, both American and foreign. Finally, at the risk of sounding warm-'n'-fuzzy, people seem nicer and look more prosperous.
Unfortunately, alot of that cannot be directly credited to Rudy.
People probably look more prosperous now because they are . . . WAY more prosperous. Those who aren't very prosperous have been forced out. My fear is that the diverse and ecclectic nature of NY, which initially attracted me to it, is quickly being eliminated through gentrification. I've lived here for 2 years now. And in that time I've watched the real estate market inflate by 40%! Luckily, I've been able to hold on, but thanks to relaxed rent stabilization laws, many haven't.
NY is certainly lot cleaner now than it has been in years. But there is a price to pay for that which is frequently overlooked in these discussions. The perspective of a tourist is very diferent than that of a resident. Especially when the resident is faced with a residential real estate market where $400/sq ft is considered a bargain.
My two sons are living out of town because they can make ends meet there but not here, a daughter still lives at home because she's got a son & has the same problem as the boys ... that's too bad, but it's a typical problem.
Mr t__:^)
I think that depends on the boundaries you consider when you talk about gentrification. If you consider the surrounding suburbs, then I don't see it. Of course if you talk about just Manhattan, then perhaps you are correct. Just to keep this transit relavent, I have a trivia question for you. We did an unofficial survey in the NYCT Phone Directory. Remember that it does not include the Hourly Employees but what name do you suppose is the most common one listed? HINT: It is Not Smith or Jones or Doe
[We did an unofficial survey in the NYCT Phone Directory. Remember that it does not include the Hourly Employees but what name do you suppose is the most common one listed? HINT: It is Not Smith or
Jones or Doe]
Johnson?
I would suspect that it is the most common Hispanic name, perhaps Gonzalez or Rodriquez.
If it's an "English" surname, I'll guess Johnson. I knew a number of Johnsons, but black and white, in NYC.
Nope Not Hispanic, Not English. The most common name in the NYCT phone book is "PATEL"
No wonder I could not understand what the conductor was saying on the announcement on the 4 line in June was I was in NY
Obviously, you were not carrying my copyrighted "NYCT Conductors' Translation Manual" ;-)
Copies are still available at the extremely affordable price of $59.95 (and if you order before midnight tonight you'll receive a set of Ginsu knives).
Doug aka BMTman
PS: credit cards are welcome...
Doug, I would've order this, except for the Ginsu knives.
I understand they're so bad that a woman tried to murder her husband with one and couldn't even break his skin.
AFAIK, neither husband nor wife was of Japanese ancestry, if that might've made a difference.
IMPORTANT DISCLAIMER: The above story is based on a rumor spread by professional rumor-mongers on a closed website. Do not attempt to try this based on this or any other rumor, nor with Ginsu or any other kind of knife or weapon, on your own spouse, or anyone else's spouse or any other person, no matter what their ancestry.
Rumor void where taxed, regulated or prohibited by law.
Doug, Seriously that conductor on the 4 train could not pronounce 86, 125, 138 149 and Yankee Stadium. Everyone on the train was trying to figure out what he was saying, asking anyone in English, Spanish, Hatian Creole, he just could not pronounce anything right, including This is the 4 Express to the Bronx
Well, the joke alone is worth a rim shot.
I KNEW IT! That's why I said Singh. Shows I was on the right track at least.
Singh? Mohammed? Rodriguez?
You're on the right track, just the wrong caste!!!
It's Patel.
David
[I think that depends on the boundaries you consider when you talk about gentrification. If you consider the surrounding suburbs, then I don't see it. Of course if you talk about just Manhattan, then perhaps you are correct. Just to keep this transit relavent, I have a trivia question for you. We did an unofficial survey in the NYCT Phone Directory. Remember that it does not include the Hourly Employees but what name do you suppose is the most common one listed? HINT: It is Not Smith or Jones or Doe]
[People probably look more prosperous now because they are . . . WAY more prosperous. Those who aren't very prosperous have been forced out. My fear is that the diverse and ecclectic nature of NY, which initially attracted me to it, is quickly being eliminated through gentrification. I've lived here for 2 years now. And in that time I've watched the real estate market inflate by 40%! Luckily, I've been able to hold on, but thanks to relaxed rent stabilization laws, many haven't]
What you say is true, and I don't doubt that this "gentrification" process might have some unfavorable side effects down the road. Diversity is one of those things that isn't always appreciated until it's gone. I'm finishing up a book about Disney's planned community of Celebration near WDW. It seems to be the main theme that while Celebration is a remarkable community in many respects (although its experimental school was a dismal failure and had to be recast in a more traditional mold) its near complete lack of diversity gives it an "unrealistic" atmosphere - the population is almost entirely white, upper middle class and above, and for the most part socially and politically conservative. Some families are concerned that an upbringing in Celebration will leave their children ill-prepared for life in the real world. NYC is in no danger of becoming another Celebration, but I would imagine that the trends could be unfavorable, as you mention.
Despite all this, I must note that NYC's increasing gentrification is not something that can be changed by government policy. Real estate prices and rents are rising so rapidly because the demand is so high. A supply-and-demand imbalance can be remedied only by increasing the supply or limiting the demand. Increasing the supply of reasonably priced housing is next to impossible because of the high cost of land and construction. Almost all the new buildings going up are aimed at the high end of the market, mainly because that's the only way they can be built. As far as the other end of the equation is concerned, lowering the quality of life in NYC would decrease demand for housing and consequently lower prices. But I suspect no one really wants that, not even Hillary.
Peter's points are on the mark. The only way to go to get some kind of balance would be to continue and increase the "Nehemiah Housing" concepts that are working quite well in the lower-income neighborhoods.
The theory: housing projects by design make for crampt living conditions, breed crime and don't give the tenants a sense of owning anything. The Nehemiah Housing concept builds row housing units for one-two family living for those former tenement dwellers who are willing to make the committment with sharing the costs in paying for and upkeeping the buildings (co-funded by both NYC and local church organizations).
This seems to be working quite well as it proves the theory that giving people affordable housing and they will take pride in the property since they have a vested stake in it's survival or failure.
That could be one of the ways to stave off the onslaught of gentrification.
Doug aka BMTman
You're right, Nehemiah is an excellent program. It really seems to have turned some neighborhoods around. Habitat for Humanity is a similar program, although on a smaller scale.
One drawback of programs like Nehemiah is that they seem to work only in rundown neighborhoods with ready availability of inexpensive land. They aren't any use in making a "gentrifying" neighborhood more affordable. I suspect that the forces of supply and demand are just too strong in those cases.
All around the country, older central cities are primarily, if not exclusively, occupied by the poor, while affluent suburbs try to limit themselves solely to the better off. New York City is STILL in more danger of becomming another Detroit than another Greenwich. The fact that New York also has Manhattan, which is primarily rich, and middle income neighborhoods, is probably one reason it can afford the kind of life that makes some of us live here.
For every part of the region getting richer (ie. remaining low income areas of Manhattan) there is another getting poorer (ie. older middle and working class suburbs whose housing is hitting age 50, both inside and outside New York). Those being "forced out" of Manhattan, where many people would like to live but most cannot afford, can certainly afford to live in Morris Park, Ridgewood, or Canarsie. They just think they are too good to live among the rest of us. Many of my neighbors moved here from Manhattan, and have found life in Brooklyn acceptable.
[All around the country, older central cities are primarily, if not exclusively, occupied by the poor, while affluent suburbs try to limit themselves solely to the better off. New York City is STILL in
more danger of becomming another Detroit than another Greenwich. The fact that New York also has Manhattan, which is primarily rich, and middle income neighborhoods, is probably one reason it can afford the kind of life that makes some of us live here.
For every part of the region getting richer (ie. remaining low income areas of Manhattan) there is another getting poorer (ie. older middle and working class suburbs whose housing is hitting age 50, both inside and outside New York)]
You're quite right. Everyone's gotten so fixated on "gentrification" that they overlook the fact that some neighborhoods and suburbs surely must be deteriorating. For instance, I've heard that Bensonhurst and even parts of Bay Ridge are starting to get a bit run down. Same thing seems to be happening with Woodhaven and Richmond Hill in Queens. Even Manhattan may not be immune to neighborhood deterioration. Each time I walk through Chinatown it looks worse and worse, even the people seem shabbier.
One of the biggest myths these days is that black and hispanic youth are the only ones how are not being educated.
If real facts came out you'd be surprised to find that the city drop-out rate is very high among Italian-American youth. This is something that's being hidden by the powers-that-be at 110 Livingston street.
So "Johnny Can't Read" is actually applying to ALL racial and ethnic groups, but the publicity always highlights the groups from poorer neighborhoods. This is a fact.
The school system is the program, not the immigrants it is supposed to educate.
Doug aka BMTman
I think you meant the school system is the problem. I also wouldn't be suprised of a high drop-out rate by asians as well.
Yes, I've noticed quite a difference in BOTH "Chinatowns". Chinatown (in Manhattan) has gotten run down quite a bit, especially by the Manhattan bridge. It partially has to do with the people, but mostly with the city in this case. Chinatown has poor bus route access, poor subway access, and they are cutting up roads and sidewalks, blocking east pedestrian movement such as at Canal and Bowery. This causes less people to frequent the area, and businesses hurt. Cars diverted from these streets jam up streets like Mott and Bayard. What a shame to see NYC treat this exotic place like it doesn't exist.
In Flushing, Queens, it is more the disgusting and vile groups of whitewashed asian teens that fill street corners, making the older folks as well as myself very uncomfortable. Flushing has a large Taiwan based chinese population, with businesses on parts of Main street, Roosevelt west of Main street, Kissena Blvd,and vicinity. More and more chinese businesses are coming, and Flushing is a bustling busy place where businesses do well. Koreans have alot of their business on Union, Northern, and the eastern part of Roosevelt ave. The problem is the deteriorating people, there are alot of rude, unpolite asian people around lately. They dress upscale, have those annoying "phones", and most annoying are these asian kids with blonde dye hair and ugly baggy pants. It used to be that Flushing was a more exotic place like Chinatown last year, but there's this ugly crowd moving in, especially around Union street and Roosevelt. They could be Koreans, but whoever it is they are ruining a place where I could experience Chinese culture.
There has to be some community consensus to do something about these kids, who block bus stops with their cars, act disorderly, cause fights, because it's trying to ruin Flushing. I know a bus driver who does the N20/N21 for 7 years, but they said it's gotten so bad in Flushing (with rude cars, blocking and littering of bus stops) that they are finally getting a route change for the beginning of next year. They agree there has been a marked change in Flushing since the past year, and it just keeps getting worse.
The 7 line train redbirds sound like they are in bad shape, they really need some new cars too. I also used to see more traditional looking chinese girls there, now there's just so much of that "whitewashed" trash out there. What a shame. What a shame. I really do cry inside to see what could've been a beautiful "little Taipei" have become so americanized as it has.
Asian kids more so than other immigrant children pick up on Americanisms and love to imitate U.S. culture. Unfortunately, they mimic the WORST teen habits, smoking, cussing, wearing those "homeboy" baggy pants and stupid nose and navel rings (Ugh!)
Too bad they want to assimilate so bad that they are quickly losing their own native identity.
Doug aka BMTman
I am married to a Chinese/Filipina from The Philippines, and have Chinese Family. The problem is that after coming to the USA most Asian kids want to become Americans, but they feel nothing in common with them, Plus the rebel against their Asian Heritage, and what is geared to Family. If you are not of their National Backround you mean nothing to them. The Asian Priority is as follows. 1-Family, 2-Village, 3 Region, 4 Country and the hell with the rest of the world. The kids feel they are not White Americans, and pick up on the other Racial Ethnic Mores that are not Anglo.
Alot of these "whitewashed" asian kids also talk in english. You also see alot of 20s "yuppie" asian types around everywhere, from places like Manhattan and Flushing, to Roosevelt Field Mall.
They dress the same crappy way all the other women dress, in those yucky 3/4 length and black colored fashions, it's like they make the clothes to make women look less attractive (like those ugly big shoes). (who else hates the way people dress today?)
People sure did dress alot better before the days of full width cabs. I gotta face that (asians) all mostly Americanized and I'm never gonna find an un-materialistic Chinese girl, they just don't exist in this country. The only thing I'll be touching is the front of a railfan window, at least for another 8 lonely years, unless they put in all R44's and up, then I won't have that either.
On the 7 yesterday there were these asian guys standing in back of me while I was at the front window making disgusting gargling sounds. They just keep getting ruder. I wonder what lines on the subway have the rudest people? I think the people who ride the 7 are the rudest.
And at the end of the line (when they leave their cab when arriving at Flushing) the motormen often give me nasty looks just for looking out the window! I like the 7 but the people there are getting to me, I have no other problems with other lines.
Hey John, I have a very pretty Filipina Sister in Law, I think she will be 33, single living in Hong Kong, College Grad Bob
"Those being "forced out" of Manhattan, where many people would like to live but most cannot afford, can certainly afford to live in Morris Park, Ridgewood, or Canarsie. They just think they are too good to live among the rest of us. Many of my neighbors moved here from Manhattan, and have found life in Brooklyn acceptable. "
Most of the people I know who have been forced out of Manhattan have been flooding into Williamsburg. Proof of migration from the East Village to Williamsburg is the L from midnight to 4am on weekends between 1st Ave and Lorimer. The trains are relatively crowded, but almost no one is over 30. Just an observation.
As for feeling they are "too good to live among the rest of us." I'd argue that they/we are driven more by a desire to have quick transit access to jobs, entertainment, etc. in Manhattan rather than a disdain for you personally or your neighborhood which is much further away.
Larry, yes, Rudy does have a vendetta against the borough of his youth. I guess you're not aware of the serious bad-blood between Brooklyn Borough President Howard Golden and Rudy? Rudy totally shot down the Brooklyn Beeps' long-standing and well-developed plan for the minor league stadium for Coney Island. That was just the beginning.
Now, the feud continues over where the combined monument to Pee Wee Reese and Jackie Robinson is to be erected. Without consulting the Borough President, Rudy decided to have it placed at the Parade Grounds. Howie Golden, feeling slighted, felt that a more prominent place -- like in Cadman Plaza Park in the Downtown/Borough Hall area would be more appropriate (and more visible).
And the battle continues since Rudy went ahead with the Malathion spraying w/o consulting the Borough Presidents -- another sour spot for HG.
Rudy holds grudges like crazy glue.
BTW, if Rudy hadn't made a big stink about this museum exhibit, I would bet my bank account it wouldn't get sold out. Betcha, there will be lines around the block when it opens. This goes to prove what the experts will tell you -- even BAD publicity is better than NO publicity.
Doug aka BMTman
Why don t they put one on the inbound platform and one on the outbound platford of the Prospect Park station, then more people could see it.
Believe it or not, you're on to something. Parade Grounds and Boro Hall is splitsville. I still equate Prospect Park Station with the Brooklyn Dodgers and Ebbets Field. Whenever I came to that station in my three trips to New York since I moved to California 45 years ago, I always got off--ALWAYS. I imagined heading towards Ebbets Field. Prospect Park Station would be an excellent place to put Jackie and Pee Wee. Just thinking of those two gets by blood going.
Bob, I wish I could put it on the Sea Beach line but that would not be kosher since my train had nothing to do with Ebbets Field and the Dodgers. Yours did. Pee Wee even wore #1, but you do know that Duke wore #4---the Sea Beach's designation until the TA changed things.
YEH THE BRIGHTON NOT THE OLD SEA BEACH LOCAL, AND GIL LIVED NEAREST TO THE BRIGHTON LINE
Gentlemen, speaking of Gil Hodges are you aware that his widow was recently trying to drum up support among local politicos for a an OFFICIAL renaming of the Marine Parkway Bridge as Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge? For years by the toll plaza is a tribute to Gil, but I believe when you see the bridge on maps it is referred to as the Marine Pkwy Bridge and not Gil Hodges. I always thought the name change was official.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: Gil not only should have a bridge named after him, but should be in the Hall of Fame. He drove in 100 runs or more seven seasons in a row, and hit 20 or more homers 11 years in a row. He was the best fielding first baseman of his time, a great team player and family man. He also was an excellent manager who led the Mets to a World Title. What's not to like about him PUT HIM IN.
I agree. Don Drysdale spoke of Gil as being a saint. He was a tower of strength; in fact, M. Donald Grant never questioned Hodges about anything. Speaking of Grant, Whitey Herzog (yes, he did work for the Mets at one time) once told him to his face that he didn't know beans about baseball, which was true. Grant didn't appreciate that. Gee... All he did was run the franchise into the ground when the Payson family let him run it.
BTW, subway maps have designated the Marine Parkway Bridge as the Gil Hodges Memorial Bridge for some time now.
Hey Fred, I agree with you on Hodges, believe it or not. And the bums should retire his number too, and he took the Brighton, because I saw him on it once. He used to live Ave L and E 33rd
Let's stop this crap from the Elephant going to the bathroom. Too many postings on this stuff.
And speaking of #4, since you've modified your handle, why not include it, since that was the Sea Beach's number marking?
How about #4 Sea Beach Man? Just a suggestion, mind you.
Pee Wee even wore #1, but you do know that Duke wore #4---the Sea Beach's designation until the TA changed things.
We can compromise on this one, Fred.
Pee Wee wore #1 = Brighton Line.
True, the Duke wore #4, but this fits into the Brighton Line too.
Prospect Park was served by the #1 Brighton and #7 Franklin. 1 + 7 = 8, divided by the fact that two lines served it = 4.
There you have it.
Paul: You're getting to be one of my main men. Brilliant. And to think you made my Sea Beach part of the Ebbets Field equation. A work of art. Congrats.
FRED IN YOUR DREAMS the closet the Sea Beach came to Ebbets field was 2 busses away or a Transfer at DeKalb Ave, and back then the 4 bypassed DeKalb Ave
FRED IN YOUR DREAMS the closet the Sea Beach came to Ebbets field was 2 busses away or a Transfer at DeKalb Ave, and back then the 4 bypassed DeKalb Ave.
Not exactly, Bob ... see my reply to Fred.
I did see your reply, see mine now
Come on Bob Don't be a killjoy now that we've become buddies.
Day were bums den and dey always will be bums, but you are right as rivalries go the Yankee-Dodger/ Giant-Dodger in the late 40s to 50s were great. People tend to forget that every World Seroes from 1949 to 1958 was played in New York, of course all but one the Yankees were in it. By the way how do you like the new Bum Uniforms? Yuk, Thank God George no matter what a schm+ck he is is a tradionalist.
Bob, I'm a Mets fan. I hate the Dodgers and have for decades.
But if the Dodgers never left Brooklyn, and LA got the expansion team say the LA/Hollywood Stars, who would you root for? You were a Dodger Fan in Brooklyn Right?
Bob: I was a Brooklyn Dodger fan and even though they came to LA four years after I did, for some reason I never really took to them out here. I tried rooting for them for a while, but no Robby, Campy, Hodges over the hill, Snider departing, etc, it wasn't the same. And O'Malley was a cheap sob. He chose to play in the Coliseum which was a montrosity but could seat 90,000, rather than a Wrigley Field that could seat 23,000. The Coliseum had no shade and backless benches and was so oppresive in the heat that you could bake clay there. And when they insisted on eliminating the term Bum, I was convinced the
team I once loved had become an elitist snob. Since I was born in Queens, my favorite colors had always been blue and orange, I managed a Stan Musial team called the SGV Mets, and just like the way the Mets
handled themselves in triumph and adversity I became a Mets fan in 1984. I was very happy today as you can guess.
I remember sitting in the old Coliseum as recentgly as 93 for a Raider Game(oops Traitor) game. There was nothing better in LA as the Brooklyn Dodger, By the way my nephew in White Plains works with Ralph Branca. Have you forgiven him yet?
Ralph was instrumental in the Dodgers winning the 1947 and 1949 pennants. He was a 21 game winner and the ace in 1947, and was 13-5 in 1949. Without him there would have ben no pennants. Yes I forgave him and I hope to meet him and shake his hand one day. By the way, the arch villian of that piece, Bobby Thomson is a frequent guest of the Brooklyn Dodger fan club activities. It seems he has been accepted as one of us and he seems to enjoy being in Brooklyn Dodger company. I forgave him too, and I now insist that the most dramatic event in baseball history was his "shot heard 'round the world in 1951.
Did you know Ralph Branca is Bobby Valentine's father-in-law?
Oh and BTW, I became a Mets fan in 1968. Has it really been 30 years since their miracle year? You look at their team picture of 1969 and see Tom Seaver, Jerry Koosman, Nolan Ryan, and Tug McGraw and think, that was some staff they had.
I found that out last night about Valentine being the son in law of Ralph and Ann Mulvey Branca. You see we old Brooklyn fans knew a lot about the team---even their wives. We were some fans.
Didn't O'Malley (the original greedy bastard) have Dodger Stadium built without water fountains?
Yup, and didn t even pay for the Stadium, the city built it and gave it to him. Funny 40 odd years later, the city is talking about building a new stadium, exactly where they refused to keep the Dodgers in town. Actually he followed the Giants, they made the decision to move first
Gary: Absolutely right. He had three built, one in each dugout and one in the Dodger offices. Until, that is, pressure forced him to add water fountains. His big hope was to host a world series the first year of Dodger Stadium but the Dodgers blew it. It served O'Malley right, the greedy SOB.
Actually, Fred, I missed another Sea Beach-Ebbets Field connection.
Franklin-Nassau trains ran on the Sea Beach center tracks, then ran up the Brighton to stop at Prospect Park ... and Ebbets Field.
It would have been possible, therefore, to take in the entire Sea Beach Line, then take in the Dodgers at Ebbets Field, without any changing trains!
When they ran, they ran non stop from 59th St(4th Ave) to Coney Island, so it really only used 4 Stops on the Sea Beach Line (Pacific, 39th, 59th and Coney Island) They only ran on Sunday s so most of the games you had to transfer and only when it was sunny. Both trains bypassed DeKalb in Both Directions at that time
Paul I love you. Wow! That's really great to make a connection between my train and Ebbets Field. Where did the train diverge from the Sea Beach tracks to get to Prospect Park? Do you know? Give me some more good news. That was really swell.
As I said, the closest the Sea Beach Got, is maybe when a triplex moved up to the Brighton Express from the Sea Beach. Or 2 bus rides away. In fact in those days there was no transfer from Pacific Steet to Atlantic, so you would have to transfer at Coney Island, or Pacific St to go to DeKalb to change to the Brighton. Always at least 1 transfer. In fact the only place half decent in Brooklyn did the Sea Beach go to was Nathans(It was better then folks)
It went to New Utrecht Ave and Avenue U where my grandparents lived and where we used to go for big Sunday get togethers in the late 40's and early 50's. Those were good memories for me and for that the Sea Beach did its job. It was also the fastest train to Coney Island, much faster than your Brighton or the babbling West End. Those little mini-tunnels were thrills for me because you'd go in and you'd go out and repeat the process about 20 times. So after Ebbets Field you keep your Brighton and I'll enjoy my Sea Beach memories. What are you trying to do, get me mad and agitated? Bad enough you like Hillary and hate Rudy. Don't make it any worse. I will admit that of all the trains I rode the Brighton Express was second to my Sea Beach, but telling you that might be a mistake. It might give you a big head.
Hey Fred, check out who now has the fastest schedule from Herald Square, you loose, it is now the B West End. The Brighton Exp back then was the only true express . Express all the way from 57th St to Brighton Beach. I do not think any line in any division could say that. The only time it made stations in a row was 4 between Canal St and Propect Park. No other line in the city can say that. Bob
That's now and it's not then. But, truth be told, I don't like what they've done to the Sea Beach. Some of the stations look like a relic of WWI with their steel barriers and girders separating the tracks and the peeling paint of the stations. I'm going to have to use my influence with Rudy to change that, and if you believe the first part of this sentence I have bridge for sale that you can buy cheap.
Which one, the 3rd Ave Bridge in Manhatten to the Bronx, or is that the Willis Ave Bridge ?,How about the Arroyo Parkway Bridge in Pasadena by the Rose Bowl. Damn Bruins blew another one yesterday
The Franklin-Nassau ran from Chambers Street, express down 4th Avenue to 59th Street, then on the Sea Beach Express tracks to Coney Island. Instead of ending at Coney Island it continued to W8, Ocean Parkway, Brighton Beach, Kings Highway, Newkirk Avenue, Church Avenue, Prospect Park (Ebbets Field), then all stops to Franklin Avenue.
This ran 1924 to c.1952, Hot Summer Sundays only (apparently would not run on a cool, rainy Sunday) and I believe it also ran some Summer Saturdays at one point.
Technically you could argue that this was not a Sea Beach train, since it made no stops on the Sea Beach Line. But it used the Sea Beach tracks, so you could ride the entire Sea Beach line (without stops) and still end up at Ebbets Field.
And don't let anyone tell you different.
Hey Brighton Beach Bob: Read Paul's message and take that you Sea Beach hating, Hillary loving-----something. Ha Ha. I still like you.
I don t like Hilliary, But she is the lesser of 2 evils. Neither NY Candidate is worth a Damn. Too Bad JFK Jr Died, he would have smashed either one toward the Senate. Speaking of Kennedys I heard Arnold S. may run for Gov in Calif. Maybe Maria should run for Senate in NY? Also as I stated. The Franklin Nassau may have used Sea Beach Tracks, but it never had the Name Sea Beach, and you can say the Sea Beach used Brightons West End or 4th Ave tracks in Manhatten. sharing does not cound. It is the name on the sign that counted. Saying it did run, you still would have changed trains from Any Sea Beach Station.
Didn't Charlie Dressen wear #7?
Yes, he did---and he blew the 1951 pennant when he refused to throw Clem Labine the last two weeks because he thought he had defied him in pitch selection in a game with the Phillies. If Labine could have gotten three or four more starts, he certainly would have won at least one of them since his ERA was low and he was 4-1. When Dressen finally let Clem out of his doghouse, it the was the second game of the 1951 playoffs and Clem shut out the Giants 10-0. Clem got into the habit of pitching very well against the Giants, but strangely, he pitched much better against them at the Polo Grounds than he did at Ebbets Field.
I read that Dressen was out to prove he was just as good a manager as Durocher was, having served as a coach for Leo with the Dodgers. The Dodgers canned him when his wife wrote to O'Malley demanding a three-year contract; the Dodgers had a policy of signing their managers to one-year contracts. Tommy Lasorda finally got a three-year deal later on during his tenure; Walt Alston signed 23 consecutive one-year pacts.
BTW, did you know that Labine was the only other player besides Tom Seaver to wear #41 while with the Mets? Yes, he was one of the Original Mets.
I like your idea Bob.
which one was that.?I put up a bunch that I am getting C.R.S.
Doug, you're absolutely right on that last paragraph. When are people going to learn that protests and boycotts ALWAYS BACKFIRE? I bet no one would give a moon and sixpence about this art exhibit if there weren't so much controversy surrounding it. At least four people I know intend to go to the Brooklyn Museum now to see what all the fuss is about. And these are people who never go to museums!!
Basic rule of life: controversy sells.
Now, the feud continues over where the combined monument to Pee Wee Reese and Jackie Robinson is to be erected. Without consulting the Borough President, Rudy decided to have it placed at the Parade Grounds. Howie Golden, feeling slighted, felt that a more prominent place -- like in Cadman Plaza Park in the Downtown/Borough Hall area would be more appropriate (and more visible).
Not choosing sides between Rudy and Howie on this one, but speaking as a Flatbushite who lived his first 19 years within a baseball's throw of the Parade Grounds...
When I was growing up Brooklyn was Brooklyn and Flatbush was Flatbush. Flatbush being Brooklyn was a technicality. Ebbets Field was Flatbush. Duke Snider was the Duke of Flatbush, not the Duke of Brooklyn.
The Parade Grounds is Flatbush. Parkes Cadman Plaza is someplace else. Parkes Cadman Plaza is what you passed through on a Fulton Street train on your way to the Franklin Shuttle to go to Prospect Park station and Ebbets Field.
In Flatbush.
I vote for the Parade Grounds. Anyone who disagrees will be killed and eaten.
Paul: Control your appetite. I still Prospect Park Station had strong possibilities and it is still Flatbush. As I've said over and over, whenever I came to that station whether I was going one way or the other---I always got off and made my imaginary journey to Ebbets Field which, of course, no longer exist and has been replaced by an ugly housing project.
Like Fred, I like my idea of the Prospect Park Station, As to Flatbush, boy has it shrunk over the years. Where I lived as a Kid I lived in Flatbush. (Kings Highway and E 23rd) Then in the 70s It was changed to Midwood, Now it is called Kingsway or Madison Park. What is it, and now Ebbets Field is in Crown Hts. Check out the book I bought last time at Barnes and Noble on 5th in the City. The Neighborhoods of Brooklyn. Good book
Good points, Bob. As a matter of fact, my idea for a perfect spot for the Reese/Robinson monument would be a serene and tranquil place where all of Brooklyn could come and see it: Prospect Park's Sheep Meadow. (I think even Paul would agree -- it's not far from the Ebbetts Field location, and would add to the majesty of Prospect Park).
BTW, speaking of the Jackie Robinson Housing Complex, I heard that the buildings' main office occasionaly has to deal with Japanese tourist who will come by and ask "where's the ballpark?" Little do they know that all that remains (I think) is one of the bases (?) Maybe one of my fellow SubTalkers can confirm this for me?
Doug aka BMTman
I agree, Fred,
I read the Prospect Park suggestion after posting my rant, and it's an uncommonly good one.
I wouldn't want to put it at Ebbets Field projects, though. It is too painful to be reminded that there is boring housing where the Dodgers played.
Prospect Park, OTOH, has a direct connection to Ebbets Field, even if the station doesn't look exactly the same as when the Field was still open.
Well since we seem to agree that I finally came up with a swell idea can we now get the ball rolling. Who do we call and how can all of us influence them about Prospect Park Station. You have to believe me when I tell you that when I hear of that station, or in my trips to New York when I arrive there, my find flashes back to the late 40's and early and mid 50's and I'm thinking of nothing but Ebbets Field and the real Dodgers----not the ersatz ones we have out her now.To me Prospect Park Station and Ebbets Field and the Dodgers were synonomous. It would make the Brooklyn Dodgers come alive again for all of us if we could somehow get the Robby-Pee Wee statue put there.
[Who decided that picture is of the Virgin Mary? Does any idiot get to designate something a religious symbol?]
I believe the "artist" did so. Although the woman in the painting is black, there has been a long artistic tradition of depicting Mary as black (don't ask me why). The elephant grogans are a new touch, as you might imagine.
I saw an interview with the artist of that particular piece. He is an Africian and a Catholic who grew up in England. However, he only recently went back to his birthplace in Africa and discovered how Elephant dung is supposedly cherished as something sacred in his native country. So, the painting is NOT actually a derogatory interpretation of the Virgin Mary as many critics (including Rudy) would have you believe.
And that one painting is one of the more descent works in the "Sensation" exhibit. Most of the other stuff is goulish (like a man's head floating in his own blood and a whole pig cut down the middle).
I wonder if that's where the term "holy s--t" came from. Cows are sacred in a certain country, hence "holy cow".
No doubt this stuff is to art what the World Wrestling Federation is to sport -- over the top schlock to get attention and raise money. The way to punish it is to ignore it, not to cut off funds so my little girl may not be able to take an art class at the museum in the spring.
I'm sure the people who produce and promote this stuff are heartbroken that it has generated so much controversy.
Ask Phil Rizzutto
Peter, I agree that the exhibit should not be censored. One of the great things about this country is the freedom of every person (artists included) to make a fool out of themself.
Culture, and art in particular, is by its very nature difficult to quantify. Should we be subsidizing art, and who defines what art is? That's a valid question, and one that begs a considered answer. I'll offer a short one: yes, we should subsidize art, if that's what it takes to have some. Doing so means that we are necessarily subjecting ourselves to the whim of what someone else defines as art; we can only hope that there are enough different, diverse individuals making these kinds of decisions so we are exposed to a palette of many colors and styles and can make up our own minds about what is art to us.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There was a family friend of my father's who came through Ellis Island back in the teens. We lived in his house in Paterson for two months when we first moved to New Jersey; that's another story for another time. Anyway, we suspect his name got changed by an inspector; in Lithuania, his surname was Zaranka, then all of a sudden it was Saranko. Maybe the inspector spelled it the way he heard it.
He told us once he still remembered horsecars in New York in 1916.
My dad too talked about the Grand Street Horse Cars. He was born on Forsythe and Grand on the Lower East Side in 1904 and lived there until he married my mom in 1929, He is the one who got my older brother and I interested in trains, rapid transit etc.
If you want to digress from Brooklyn, the '1' above 116th Street is a great line. There's the brief elevated stretch and great views at 125th Street, and then a longer el from Dyckman Street to the end of the line at Van Cortlandt Park. This incorporates a ride over a drawbridge and some more great views at 225th Street of the Hudson, the Palisades, and maybe some Metro-North diesels.
The extreme upper end of Manhattan has some unusual station entrances due to the topography of the area. Some platforms are accessed by elevator; others by long tunnels under cliffs. Several station entrances are carved right into the outcroppings.
This area can also be reached by the (usually) superfast 'A' express
above Columbus Circle. Try to get an R-38 if you can. That's the one with the small illuminated 'A' above the front window which you can stand at and see out of- an element of the subway that, sadly, is rapidly being phased out.
I was riding the 6 train to 96 street station to go to Mount Sinai on September 23, 1999. The station was impressive; there was an off-hour waiting area balcony between the two tracks (the express tracks are on a lower level). I noticed that the tunnel seemed to have a rounded ceiling on the north end of the station. This is odd, since this is not a deep station. The balcony above the tracks is interesting. I wonder why it was built.
My memory is somewhat hazy on this one, but if I remember correctly what I was told by Joe Cunningham there was a problem of some sort with the stability of the surrounding soil at that location, hence the placement of forms and pouring of a steel-reinforced concrete arch. This has been done at more than one location in the system. I think that was done at the time the platforms were extended, but I'm not sure.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A classic example of this is at 190th Street-Overlook Terrace on the "A" line, and several other stations (IND and IRT) in the vicinity.
Wayne
Isn't it the south end of the station that has the arch/rounded ceiling? It used to be that the south end of this station had no tile walls at all, just a concrete arch comprising the walls and ceiling. For a while it was painted green. The station was rehabbed a decade or so ago - maybe a little more - at which time the concrete walls were removed or shaved back (I don't know just how) and regular subway tile walls were installed over the full length of the station, including artwork on some of the name tablets after a simple "96" instead of the expected "th Street" ordinal.
What are some great songs for riding the subway?
I have a few,
Robert Miles-Children (dance song)
Cars-Coming Up You (80 soft pop song)
Ric Ocasek-Emotion in Motion (80s soft pop song)
???-That's the way I feel about you (I've heard it on Muzak soft rock chennel, it starts with the words, "there are roads that can take you to places you've never been") I like that sax solo in the song with those dramatic drums remind me of the rumble of a train coming.
> Cars-Coming Up You (80 soft pop song)
> Ric Ocasek-Emotion in Motion (80s soft pop song)
Dunno what the subway has to do with it but these are two of my favorite songs too...
-Dave
Well those Cars songs are good songs for going fast, so when I'm listening to it (with headphones of course) on a subway train, especially express, like the IND Queens Blvd Exp (E/F) or the 7X it just feels right. And of course this would be from a tape, since the "walkman" radio won't work in a subway tunnel. Which brings me to another question, how do the TA portable radios work down there?
Sade aint bad subway music either.
Of course you can enjoy the songs while riding on an R44, but, with the full-width cab you aint gonna see anything else but tunnel lights going by.
Which brings me to another question, how do the TA portable radios work down there?
Most transit systems string leaky coax throughout their tunnel networks. Think of it as a very long antenna.
Ambrose,
Just keep on walkin'
But, Ambrose
Just keep on walkin'
Who does that song??
BTW, I remember seeing a video to that Robert Miles "Children" song, I think they were some subway scenes.
Hey, I remember that from way back around 1960 or so! Wasn't that spoken rather than sung, and it had several parts to it. $64 question is - Who did it?
One song that specifically mentions the subway was recorded by a group called The Michael Shrieve Project (Michael Shrieve was the drummer for Santana), and was entitled "City Bound 'E' Train". I believe it was recorded either in the late 1970s or early 1980s. 1980 seems to ring a bell.
Wayne
Yes, spoken rather than sung. Called a novelty side back then. Minor hit when I was in high school--no idea who. As to Shrieve I don't know the song, although I certainly remember his name.
>What are some great songs for riding the subway?
Take The 'A' Train
That's the unofficial anthem of the NYC subway system.
Then there's Petula Clark's "Don't sleep in the subway, darling, don't stand in the pouring rain..."
Remember the song sang by Glen Campbell called Rinestone Cowboy.
The subway song by Soupy Sales is my far the best.
The Subways Keep Rolling Along
All the people you meet 50 feet below the street
And the subways keep rolling along
From the Bronx to Times Square twice a day I pay my fair
And the subways keep rolling along
Oh, it's such a mess on the Lexington Express
To mingle amongst the fragent throng
It is more than a ride
It's a circus on the side
And the subway keep rolling along
There are more verses.
Don't forget Frank Sinatra and Gene Kelly in "On the Town" with the words, New York, New York is a heck of a town, the Bronx is up and the Battery is down, and the people ride in a hole in the ground. That song alone make the New York Subway famous.
And don't forget the comedy song by the Kingston Trio about the guy stuck forever on the Boston Subway "cause he didn't have the fare to get off. (I assume the Boston subway was like the old Rockaway line where you had to pay to get off) There was a line in the song about his wife coming down twice a day with his meals!!! CBS-FM 101.1 plays it every once in a while. (Thats FM Todd!!)
I think the name of the song was "MTA", from 1960 or so.
9/30/99
Re: The Kingston Trio's M.T.A.
Recorded 2/16/59 - Released 6/8/59 on Capitol #4221 - Charted 6/15/59 - Reached #15 - Written by J.Steiner and B.Hawes. I also collect 45's!!
A rare subway song by vaudeville comedian Benny Bell called "The Old Canarsie Line" - Madison #26 - written by Bell and Samberg. Possibly recorded in the 70's. Impossible to find ! I have a copy , will record if requested. See my E-mail address.
Bill Newkirk
newkirkimages@msn.com
So do I! I have 1,044 of them; my wife Rosemary has about 970. I had inquired about "Canarsie Line" at Whirlin' Disc but they only have the re-issue - it was the "B" side of "Shaving Cream". I am still kicking myself for not having bought it when I first saw it in 1976.
Wayne
AMENDED - So do I! I have 1,044 of them; my wife Rosemary has about 970. I had inquired about "The Old Canarsie Line" at Whirlin' Disc but they only have the "A" side reissue - "Shaving Cream" - "Canarsie Line" was on the "B" side. I am still kicking myself for not having bought it when I first saw it in 1976.
Wayne
9/30/99
I'm a little confused, you have 1,044 and your wife has 970 copies of "canarsie Line" or "Shaving cream"? I am assuming I have an original pressing,unless it is either a reissue or bootleg. I have yet to see one at any record show.
Bill Newkirk
Subway Music by Jeff Berlin
Crazy Train by Ozzy Osbourne
How about the Kingston Trio's MTA. It is Boston but subway related!
(For our younger set, the song is about a man named Charlie who is stuck to "ride forever 'neath the streets of Boston, He's the man who never returned.")-and all for a nickel !!
My train song selection became the favorite after the Union Square train wreck. Written by the Greatful Dead, "Driving that train, high on cocaine" proved to be a favorite among fans of "The Dead" for many years. Gives you chills when you hear "switchman's sleeping, train hundred and two is on the wrong track and headed for you".
Rolling Stones -1969-Love in Vain---
When the train left the station
it had two lights on behind
the blue light was my baby
the red light was my mind
"You Can't Always Get What You Want" reminds me of the "EE" train, R40Ms with brake test numbers and a big orange sign up front; "Midnight Rambler" and "Monkey Man" remind me of the PATH for some reason. "Gimme Shelter" reminds me of the Jamaica Bus Terminal and "Live With Me" reminds me of the "M" Shuttle, the ughly old R-7 and R-9 cars with the back-breaking fiberglas seats.
Don't know why certain songs remind me of the subway, they just do.
Wayne
Those are certainly some unusual connections, but, valid nonetheless.
Want to hear something really weird? Whenever I hear or think of the tune "Witch Doctor" as performed by Alvin and the Chipmunks (actually Dave Seville and Alvin, or Ross Bagdasarian and himself), I see a southbound A train of R-10s pulling into 42nd St. That's the one that goes "ooh-ee-ooh-ah-ah, ting, tang, walla-walla-bing-bang", etc.
Whenever I hear or think of that show's theme song, I see an F train.
The topper is that neither tune has anything to do with the subway.
What do you suppose Simon and Garfunkel were referring to in the phrase, "...the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls" in The Sounds of Silence?
I always thought they were referring to grafitti.
You may be right.
Does "B" side "Don't Whistle At Me, Baby?" conjure up any subway visions? I used to play that more than "Witch Doctor" as a little kid. "Don't Whistle..." is sort of a kitschy shuffle song set to a semi-corrupted 12-bar blues pattern. Kinda cutesy, clocks in at 1:52.
wayne
Even though summer is winding down, I observed that during the summer, and now, the A/C is best on those R40 Slants. Just another thing to love about them. I'm glad they are on the N and R. Rode one today through the 60th street tube and we were flying!
Did see a stuck N train at Queensboro before 4pm, they cut Manhattan bound N's because they wrong railed the Astoria bound N to the lower level.
Also the A/C is pretty good on the R32's I think(they have little digital front letter signs). They use them on the C and E alot, I think they are R32s.
N and Q you mean. Also, about 40 R40 slants are assigned to East New York for L service.
We rode and saw several car types today: R32, R38, Slant R40, R44, R62A, R68, R68A. Hands down coldest was #3441 on the "C", an R32. #4416-4417 on the "L" was nice and cool too. Warmest? Well, #3964-5 on the "A" (an R38), but #4083 was nice and cool, so was #4130 and so was #4143 so I can chalk that up to those first two needing a charge. Overall warmest by car type? The R68. The R62As were OK, ditto the R68A. Both could have been cooler. The R44 (#5293) was a tad on the warm and muggy side. Nothing was as well-cooled as the R32.
Wayne
Yeah the R32's have some of the best A/C, although as I said the Slant R40s are right up there with 'em. The R44's and on don't have as good A/C, but as much as I like Redbirds, it's no contest the redbirds have the worst A/C.
I don't know why they do, but it may have to do with way the ventilation is set up in redbirds. In general, the older BMT/IND cars have better A/C than the new ones. On a bus note, I notice that the newest Orions NYCT has gotten also seem to be a bit dingy on the A/C side( the older Orions have better A/C). But that's Bustalk!
If I remember correctly, the overhauled cars came back with the older R-22 A/C Freon. The tongue and groove side door rubbers and new storm door weatherproofing created an icebox with the R32s out in Queens. I never found that situation again except with a R44 where CED bypassed the thermostats. Since the R132 A/C is used, it is not as cold, as comparing an automobile A/C from the early '80s to the cars of today. R-12 was just plain COOOOOOLD!
I like the R32s (on the C/E/A) for air conditioning. They're ice boxes. For some reason, the R44s and R46s skimp on the ac.
9/25/99
I don't know that the R-44 and 46's skimp on A/C,but I am aware that the blower motor speeds drop and then speed up when demand for A/C either is met or satisfied by the thermostat.
Bill Newkirk
I was on an E train this morning going to Manhattan and it was slow going after 23rd Ely, saw an F in front of us moving slowly, and we had yellow and red signals all the way (Manhattan bound) in the tubes. The motorman "keyed by" a red signal in the tube. Why has there been bottlenecking in those E/F tunnels?
I saw track workers in the tunnel, perhaps there is slowdown due to work?
Sounds like signal problems if the motorman "keyed by" a red signal with workers on the tracks. The workers were probably signal maintainers.
The workers were about 2 signals down from the keyed by signal.
I never went through an east river tube so slow. The E/F is fast through Queens but once you get to the tunnel you can get delayed.
I got my "speed kicks" today on the R in the 60th street tube today, with a slant R40. Motorman really knew how to handle those GT's!!
Are you saying that there was a R-40 slant on the R?
Yes, I was on an R40 slant on the R around 2pm Friday.
Usually they are just on the N and Q. I was looking for an N slant R40 but it was an R! Saw some more slants later in the day on the R, as well as the N. I might've seen one on the D also.
I don't think you could have ridden a slant R40 on the R. Only R46 and R32 cars are ever assigned to that line.
I haven't heard about any reassignments of equipment, but I DID see two R46s on the "E" yesterday.
Theoretically a three-way car swap involving the "E","N" and "R" could go like this:
R46s: R -> E
R32s: E -> N
R40s: N -> R
Did not pay a visit to the "R" line yesterday - saw numerous "D" trains, all were R68s. BTW - saw THREE consists of regular R68 "B"s, 2800 and 2900 series cars, which IIRC were previously assigned to the "N".
Wayne
Interesting, I do 4 round trips a day on the E and I didn't see a slant on the R, although I saw a couple of R32's running.
The TWU Local 234 elections were held today. That handsome, smart devil, Steve Brookens, beat out two opponents to get another 3-year term as president. Just what the already beleagured riders of SEPTA need - good ol' Steve in the driver's seat for another term.
Do you believe he has the power to lead SEPTA'S rank and file (I love that expression) for 3 more years? Mind boggling !
Chuck
Does any member of BERA know if the R9 will run on the New York weekend. If so, from previous experience, how many trips will it make? Is the offer to operate good on that weekend and on that car? I would love to hear a 9 or a 6 or a 4 juiced up and humming, plus I'd love to attempt to make some recordings of the sounds. Appreciate any info.
Oh yes, 1689 will be up and running. She knows how to fly and she'll make the appropriate noises for the occasion. She's run on every event and unless someone from Branford says otherwise, the offer to run down the line with a pilot is good on any operating subway car that will be out for the day, especially 1689. How many trips does the car do? I'm not sure, but several are in order. What day are you coming? Take Branford's offer and reap the benefits!
Hope to see you there.
This might be a good opportunity for me to brush up in my own Rapid Transit Car Operating skills especially if the mother of all mothers is coming out, the R17!!!!
-Stef
Yes, I heard 6688 took off like a rocket once, down the straightaway from the barn area. It was in the maintenance barn once when I was there, and the compressor cycled on at one point. Did that bring back memories!
I would dearly love to peg 1689's controller myself if I could be there, not to mention getting a lesson in AMUE Braking 101. I'd even settle for being able to play conductor.
Well, you figure one of these days you'll have to be there. And when you finally show, 1689 will be waiting for you. I can hear the car screaming your name now. 1689 is off on another historic journey for Autumn in NY.
When you do see 1689, you'll have to jump for joy and celebrate! All hail to the R9!!! Will you drink to that?
-Stef
You bet! It's still a shame 1689 doesn't have a playmate the way 800 and 1440 have each other at Seashore.
9/25/99
I'm sure it will. On the Octobetr 9th & 10th New York weekend it will runs as allways,barring any unforseen complications.
And that's the key. Not letting the car sit in the barn for years,running it occasionally and keeping an eye on everything underneath it. You gotta keep it limbered up! Something that the current museum equipment on the TA doesn't do. They lay around without turning a wheel,problems show up!
Bill Newkirk
Would anyone be interested in an Oral History Project at this website? What exactly would that be? Well I had an idea of talking with people who were part of building , operating , maintaining the transit system from as far back as anyone goes. I was thinking of not just the worst experience ever stories, as much as how did you get started with transit, how did you feel as a worker , how did the job help or make your life better or worse, how do you feel now looking back and knowing that you were part of keeping this city alive, do you feel the public appreciated what you did.........
These are just ideas that have been kicking around in my head, along with the sounds of the R9's. Would anyone want to read these accounts? Would anyone want to give their experiences as a worker?
Would anyone want to work on this project, or even run this project if I turn out to be just a lot of talk? Do you have any ideas for an approach that would be more interesting? In short what do you think? Here's my e-mail address: pkronenberg@webtv.net You can put responses up on the board here, or e-mail me. If you e-mail me, the code word is tchhhh-ssss. What do you all think?
Collecting memories is a good idea--in essence we already do this in our postings, though they apparently don't become any kind of permanent record.
You just have to be careful to take oral history FWIW. People forget, misremember, transpose events, etc. Now and then, somebody even makes somethng up.
Collecting memories is a good idea--in essence we already do this in our postings, though they apparently don't become any kind of permanent record.
Not exactly true. I have them all. I just don't have any good mechanism to make them available.
-Dave
Hey Dave, why not publish them in a book "The Best of Subtalk"? :-)
I'm glad there has been some response to doing an Oral History Project. However, it seems that one or two people misunderstood the concept. I was e-mailed a set of dental x-rays from one person, and
the records of another person's dental hygienist.
Strangely enough I mentioned the idea of an oral history project to a friend of mine who is not a transit buff. But he told me of his paternal grandfather, who worked for the BRT before the days of the IRT, so my friend tells me.
Anyway, he was a conductor who worked between the cars and fell down and lost a leg. He went out on disability, but those were in the not so good old days. His family was barely able to scrape by on the meager money he received.
Despite some of the confused response, I think I am going to go ahead and try to contact some people who worked in the early days of transit. In fact, if there is someone here who would like to share his experience of being a worker in transit and how it affected his life and his feeling about his place in the world, please contact me. And Fred, if you want to work on this together or following your own ideas join in. I can be me-mailed at pkronenberg@webtv.net The code word is: Eddie sent me.
And finally, Jay B68, have your dentist check your right upper molar, I think there is some decay close to the root. Paul
Dave: I meant to write you to congratulate you on putting together this fantastic website. If your mind could come up with a history project of our collected memories I think someone could make a great oral history out of it. I'm sure you know those of us on this line are avid lovers of the New York Subway System. As a history teacher myself, I see great potential of such a project. In fact, if no one undertakes such an arduous job I just might do it myself. You see, I retire in one-and-a-half years. God willing, I will have ample time to really get into more participation with others on this line. I would also like to see us have a convention sometime. It would be a blast. Again, thanks for hosting this website. No other website I'm involved in even comes close to this one.
In the NY Daily News, Saturday September 25, Page 7, is a article that the city's Subway and Bus systemn would get nearly $11 billion of the unprecedented $17 billion capital program transit officials are about to unveil, sources said on Friday Sept 24.
After the good people of SubTalk reads the article your thoughts on how the $11 billion sould be spent on the subway and buses.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
Forgot to include is that the plan also calls for the TA to buy 1,130 subway cars and 1,056 buses, and to plan, design and start digging for a Second Ace. Subway line, source said.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
The City should compromise and have them design the lower half of the subway while building the upper half in this plan. If there is still money, the lower half may be built in the next plan.
3 words: second avenue subway! The population is only going to increase over the next 10 to 15 years...which will only make the 1,2, 3,9 and 4,5 and 6 worse. Even by adding extra trains, it is still a mess. It's good to see that moire subways are part of the plan to, that is a follow-up to a story last spring (forgot what paper) about how the MTA wants to retire the R-32 through R-44s. -Nick
Not that it will ever really get built, but wouldn't it make more sense to build the 63rd Street to Whitehall Street section first. The Queens line are severely overcrowded. Queens has had more population growth than the upper east side. You also end up reducing vehicle trips in to Manhattan from Queens. The upper east side, and eventually Bronx portions will reduce overcrowding on the Lex but will not reduce vehicle trips into Manhattan.
With all that money the MTA is getting couldn't they get rid of the ridiculous tolls on the Whitestone, Throggs Neck, and Verrazano (however its spelled). I think its ridiculous downright criminal to pay $7 just to get from 1 borough to another. If they feel they need 'em on the Manhattan crossings to limit the amount of vehicles there, so be it, but not to get to the Bronx or Staten Is. The real reason for EZ Pass is so you don't feel the expense anymore. After all, just charging it to your credit card makes you forget what you are paying for a 2 mile rde!!! The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
You'll never see the MTA reduce tolls. In fact you may see higher tolls at peak travel times. To the 'environmentalist' crowd we automobile owners are the enemy, except when it comes to shelling out the tolls that subsidize mass transit. Not to mention the windfall that the city and state get from sales taxes on new car sales, especially with so many people trading up to luxury cars. But don't knock e-z pass, it is a great system that has reduced back-ups at all the toll plazas, plus we S.I residents cross for only $3.20, not a bad deal.
Any sensible toll system based on fair pricing for the resource, or environmental concerns, would charge more to enter Manhattan than to travel from Staten Island to Brooklyn.
But how does one justify a toll that is lower for Staten Island residents than for Brooklyn residents to cross the same bridge at the same time in the same type of vehicle?
There is good reason to charge Staten Islanders a lower toll, because of their dependence on the facility.
OTOH, take the case of a one guy who lives in Stapleton and another who lives in Bay Ridge. Each has a restaurant job in the "other" borough which requires him to commute over the V-N. How can we justify charging one guy more than the other to reach his work place?
I am amazed that this has never been challenged in court. It's a general principle in law that the benefit of public highways cannot be reserved for residents of a particular area. If the City wishes to convey a lower price of a public good to Staten Islanders, they can offer frequent use discounts.
My biggest fear when I got promoted to Sergeant was that I'd be assigned to the Bronx and have to pay about $140 per month in tolls for a 2 1/2 mile bridge that was paid for years ago. ($120 with EZ Pass-big deal) That would have been the promotional raise! I probably would have spent an extra hour a day taking the 59St Br/3rd-Wills Av Br combo. And I live on the island!!
That proves my point about Manhattan vs. outer borough bridges. It would probably be fare to charge $200 per month to drive to Manhattan: you'd be taking up a very scarce and valuable resource -- space on Manhattan's streets -- while ignoring an alternative that is better for the community -- mass transit.
On the other hand, Bronx/Queens trips, like Brooklyn/Staten Island trips, shouldn't cost as much. The space on the road is less valuable, and the transit alternative is less convenient.
All the more reason to toll all the Manhattan bridges. We have the opposite of what makes sense.
The Verrazano is the only inter-borough highway link to Staten Island. Excepting the few car ferries,we have no other way of reaching the rest of the city by car. Residents of the other boroughs have free inter-boro travel options. Even at $3.20 per one-way trip, the MTA is still raking in hundreds of millions of dollars, which mostly go to subsidize transit operations. I even think the Verazzano generates the most $$$ for the MTA/B&T group. So in effect S.I. drivers were subsidizing the transit system out of all proportion to the small size of the SIR and bus services on S.I. Politics of course entered the equation, but that should not shock anyone.
As for giving Brooklyn residents a discount, I don't think Brooklyn elected officials would really want that, except for Brooklyn residents employed on S.I. To the average narrow-minded liberal Brooklyn politician that would only make it easier for Brooklynites to shop at the S.I. Mall or God-forbid N.J., which is where many Brooklynites and Staten Islanders already shop. You know that Howard Golden was opposed to extending the S79 to Bay Ridge because he 'thought' it would encourage Brooklynites to shop at the S.I. Mall, but plenty of Islanders without cars use the S79 to shop on 86th Street.
[To the average narrow-minded liberal Brooklyn politician [toll discounts] would only make it easier for Brooklynites to shop at the S.I. Mall or God-forbid N.J., which is where many Brooklynites and Staten Islanders already shop]
Brooklyn residents wouldn't be so prone to shopping elsewhere if there actually were any stores in Brooklyn. I'd suspect that there are fewer large stores in Brooklyn than in any U.S. metropolitan area with a population over 150,000. There are no Wal-Marts, no Targets, only one K-Mart, a sort-of mall (Kings Plaza), a Home Depot, a couple of department stores, that's about it. I don't even think there are many full-scale supermarkets. Suffolk County, with fewer people, has two Wal-Marts (plus one u/c), three Targets (plus one u/c), at least five or six K-Marts, three full-scale malls, several Home Depots, close to ten department stores if you count mall anchors, two big outlet malls (one of them among the country's biggest), and supermarkets too numerous to count.
Brooklyn politicians shouldn't be worrying about toll discounts. They ought to be figuring out how to attract more large stores.
(Brooklyn politicians should figure out how to attract more stores).
Don't get me started. Brooklyn politicians are fighting AGAINST more stores. They don't want "mega-stores" from those inferior "suburbs." Like all such issues (including transit improvements), the assholes with those attitudes are a small minority -- but a majority at public hearings.
Just about the only large sites in the borough are in manufacturing districts. As a result of a 1974 zoning amendment to "protect" manufacturing, almost all large stores in these areas have to go through years of environmental and other reviews. Staten Island and the Bronx are lucky in that they had a few large sites zoned commercial, but Brooklyn didn't. The City Planning Department (many of whose staff live in Brooklyn) wanted to repeal this nonsense, but the City Council turned it down. What good is allowing a new supermarket to open in a poor neighborhood if they don't have to be paid off?
Tons of people want to open stores in Brooklyn. I guess the pols figure that if people got off welfare they wouldn't have to vote for them anymore.
As you must well know, much of NYC zoning is illogical, backwards and generally insane. Home Depot is considered a 'hardware' store, so they have basically no size restriction. They built a huge store out on Forest Avenue and may build another one down in Rossville, near the Arthur Kill. But Pathmark or ShopRite have to go through hoops to get approval to build a mega-store, and probably can't under most current zoning restrictions.
Like manufacturing is going to come back to NYC. First it went down south, and now it is in third world countries like Malaysia and Vietnam. There was a mega-store proposal that the NYC Council, in it's finite wisdom, shot down (why??). So Queens shoppers with cars head out to Long Island, and Brooklyn and S.I. folks head out to N.J. The only loser as always in the City of New York. Hey, maybe Golden will try to tweak e-z pass to charge his constituents double if they dare shop out of Brooklyn. It's not too far-fetched for him, he was serious about trying to get the Brooklyn Dodgers back to Brooklyn last year when the O'Malley family put them up for sale. He needs to go to the Borough President's Retirement Home real soon.
I read in Brooklyn Bridge, that someone wants to cover up the Sea Beach Line between 8th Ave and New Utricht and put a shopping center there. Has anybody heard anything about this?
I thought that plan got blocked in court
The plan is sputtering forward in the face of much political opposition.
The proposed shopping center would set atop the Sea Beach, with development concentrated at its intersection with the West End. Several buses would serve it. It would also allow more space for several pedestrian oriented commercial streets, such as 8th Avenue and 13th Avenue, to expand. And, it would feature enough parking to accomodate most customers, even though most customers are unlikely to drive. Weekdays, that could be used for park N ride by Staten Island and Dyker Height residents.
Note that the "environmentalists" and "transit advocates" are against it because it is "suburban" "auto-oriented" development. Arrrgh.
Those "advocates" and "environmentalists" are using the wrong argument.
I feel Brooklyn has run amok with all of these freakin' "mini-malls" (you can't escape seeing Rite-Aids or Duane Reeds -- every neighborhood must of 2 or 3 of these EACH!).
There is Kings Plaza, Caesar's Bay, Fulton Mall, Atlantic Center, and the forthcoming Atlantic Terminal Mall (to be built above the LIRR/IRT complex). Kings County has enough of these "Mom and Pop" killers. Why do we need more? Furthermore, just as with the latest Downtown Brooklyn developments, the problems of vehicle traffic have not been fully addressed. That's my beef with the whole thing: over-development.
Who needs it??
Doug aka BMTman
Doug you are right on the money. Let them all make their plans for the future. What will happen on 1-1-2000 has been foretold. See posts on BusTalk regarding Edgar Crazy's prediction for today on the B68 in Brooklyn. Nobody believed it would happen but we have a first hand report from Luna C who was on Coney Island Ave this afternoon. Seeing is believing.....
If you think Brooklyn's got mini-mall-itis, you should come out to Long Island. Nowhere else (outside of, perhaps, southern California), are there so many automobiles without viable local mass transit (the LIRR does NOT count). And with all this suburban (rapidly becoming more and more urban) sprawl, hundreds of mini-malls, gobbling up the last few green patches of earth still left.
I fear for the Lloyd Aquifer in the next 50 years. If it goes, we all go right down the crapper.
Wayne
My theory, Wayne....in the next 10 years Nassau County will be as congested as Brooklyn and Queens, with most of the neighborhoods clogged w/traffic like Flatbush Ave. on a bad day. Mark my words. And many areas of western Suffolk will follow suit (albeit, more likely in 20 years or so).
It ALREADY IS - try navigating Hempstead Turnpike through East Meadow and Levittown - and Old Country Road around Roosevelt Field in Carle Place/Westbury is so badly congested, I won't go near it.
Wayne
Ya know, you're absolutely right, Wayne. I had forgotten all about Nassau's traffic nightmare over by the Fortunoff Mall complex near Carle Place. Talk about standing still in traffic!
Doug aka BMTman
Oops! I forgot two other shopping centers in Kings County: 86th Street in the heart of Bensonhurst; Emmons Ave. in Sheepshead Bay with Loehmann's as the anchor store (I smell the death of this "mall" since it has already been publicized that the famous Loehmann's chain is on shaky financial ground).
Is Roll 'n' Roaster still out there on Emmons Avenue? Best burger I EVER ATE.
Wayne
Wayne, the Roll n' Roaster is STILL there! Thank goodness some things never change (They still make the BEST burgers in town!)
BTW, as you know Lundy's famous restaurant is back. If anyone wants to impress that special someone for Valentine's Day -- that would be the place to go. BUT be warned: come with a FAT wallet. The place ain't exactly reasonable in the price department, even though the decor and is excellent -- mostly restored art deco from the original Lundy's. (food was okay but not as good as the decor).
Doug aka BMTman
[There is Kings Plaza, Caesar's Bay, Fulton Mall, Atlantic Center, and
the forthcoming Atlantic Terminal Mall (to be built above the LIRR/IRT
complex). Kings County has enough of these "Mom and Pop" killers. Why do we need more? Furthermore, just as with the latest Downtown Brooklyn developments, the problems of vehicle traffic have not been fully addressed. That's my beef with the whole thing: over-development]
Brooklyn isn't remotely close to over-development in a retail sense. Those places you mention are next to nothing when compared with almost anyplace else. And note that Atlantic Center has lost its biggest tenant (Caldor's) and Atlantic Terminal Mall is the real estate equivalent of vaporware. There is more than ample room in the borough to accommodate several times the current amount of retailing.
Peter, I think one of Doug's key points has to do with the small local store. My travelling is limited to Florida and Boston. But it's hard to find the sense of neighborhood that we still have in Brooklyn. It's just interesting to see something different, rather than just another set of stores in the mall. I suppose Wal-Mart was one of the earlier chains to target small towns and build a large store that would draw people away from the small stores. Cloning of stores and neighborhoods and people are a sure death of individuality. (Sounds good, but I don't know what it means either ) You go into Greenpoint, and see all the Polish stores and it's like another world. Or along Brighton Beach Avenue, and in some of the specialty Russian food stores I feel like a foreigner. I could go on and on, but I'm hungry and I'm going out to McDonalds for a happy meal ( god forbid )
[re Wal-Mart and other superstores destroying local merchants]
Your point is well-taken, and certainly many other people have similar concerns, but there are some things to consider. First of all, big stores do not necessarily mean the death of the corner store in every neighborhood. Smaller places that specialize and target "niche" markets can still do well. You mentioned the Polish shops in Greenpoint and the Russian ones in Brighton Beach as places that give their neighborhoods special character. It's a reasonable assumption that these places would have little to worry about if Wal-Marts and Targets and more supermarkets opened nearby. The places that would be in danger are the undistinguished, low-quality stores that seem to be a fixture in New York and hardly anywhere else - consider almost any "supermarket" and you'll know what I mean. This leads to my second point: the places that could not survive the onslaught of superstores probably aren't very good to begin with. We've seen that with bookstores - yes, Barnes & Noble and Borders (not to mention Amazon) have killed off many smaller bookstores, but a lot of those places weren't quite as nice as they were cracked up to be. Too often, "small" in the retail world translates to "overpriced and poorly stocked." Finally, and probably most importantly, Brooklyn and other parts of the city desparately need the tens of thousands of jobs that superstores would bring.
Yeah, but alot of what's been put up is redundant.
For instance, almost all of the mall's I mentioned, with the exception of Atlantic Center, Toys R' Us is represented. Also, if you haven't traveled much in Brooklyn, (or Queens) you would see that these chain pharmaceies are grossly over-represented in comparison to the areas they cover. It's ridiculous.
More redundancy: The famous Flatbush Sears (original NY area store) is still in Flatbush by Beverly Road. However, just a short bus ride south you will come to Kings Plaza, which also has a Sears. Now -- as I hear it -- the Atlantic Terminal Mall is to have a Sears as it's anchor store(!). That's at Atlantic and Flatbush Avenues. See what I mean?
Doug aka BMTman
[re "redundant" stores in Brooklyn: Sears, chain pharmacies, Toys 'R' Us]
There probably are different reasons why these stores seem to be overrepresented in Brooklyn. Corporate culture is most likely the case with Sears. While many if not most of their stores are in suburban locations today, the first Sears stores were in downtown locations. In essence, the company isn't afraid of cities. K-Mart also seems to be willing to open stores in urban areas, as is Target to a somewhat lesser extent. Wal-Mart is a different story, as the company prefers less-populated locations and its whole corporate culture is aimed at Middle America (I don't particularly like that term, but it's apt). Consider the fact that Wal-Mart refuses to sell CDs that have "Parental Advisory" stickers. That policy may be well-received back home in Arkansas, but would go over like a lead balloon in NYC. Even so, I strongly believe that Wal-Mart would consider opening stores in Brooklyn and the other boroughs if the politicians would let them - the potential market is huge enough to overcome cultural considerations, and (as I noted in a related thread) Wal-Marts would be a huge boost for the Brooklyn economy.
As to the other stores you mentioned, I'd say that chain drug stores are proliferating because they can, with current zoning rules being more amenable to their stores. Also note that a Rite-Aid or CVS takes up far less room than a Wal-Mart or Target and therefore is more suitable to crowded urban areas. As far as Toys 'R' Us is concerned, I can't figure out why there are so many.
(Over-represented).
How many supermarkets, health clubs, motion picture screens, department stores, etc. would you expect to find in a city of 125,000 people? By that measure, every Community Board in Brooklyn should have as many. According to national average, Brooklyn is missing 100,000 jobs just serving local residents. That's right, 100,000 -- even allowing for those working in Manhattan doing much of their shopping there.
Do we have extra small stores compared with the national average? Nope, just average. Nassau's waves of retail creative destruction have left lots of small spaces available at reasonable prices. Nassau has more up to date, and cheaper, industrial space as well. And lots of small office buildings for local entreprenuers.
And Brooklyn? Commercial space has been kept scarce, so in all but the poorest neighborhoods commercial rents are sky high. Fortunately, competing stores are also scarce, and so are jobs, so you can recoup your rent by overcharging your customers, paying your workers below the mininum wage off the books, and not cleaning your store.
Thank God Brooklyn is already there. If it wasn't, all these NIMBYITES would be fighting to stop it. You like Lundy's? What do you think would happen if someone proposed a 20,000 s.f. restaurant in some neighborhood some where? A restaurant is about the highest trip generator there is
[And Brooklyn? Commercial space has been kept scarce, so in all but the poorest neighborhoods commercial rents are sky high. Fortunately,
competing stores are also scarce, and so are jobs, so you can recoup
your rent by overcharging your customers, paying your workers below the mininum wage off the books, and not cleaning your store]
All of this just butresses what I've said before - it would have been far better had NYC *not* avoided municipal bankruptcy back in the 1970s. If the city had gone belly-up, its fate probably would have passed into the hands of anti-urban Sunbelt politicians. A bad outcome? Well, these politicians just might have imposed some financial discipline on the city and broken the endless spend-more-on-social-services cycle that has bedeviled the city ever since. Things would have been rough for a while, but I believe that today's NYC would be far better run and fiscally sound (don't forget, city bonds are still very low-rated). And who knows, there might even be a Second Avenue line!
What's happening now in Washington D.C. may give you an idea of how that would have played out in New York -- with Mayor Barry gone, the city remains under tight fiscal controls (Congress controls it's budget approprations, and the Sun Belt Republicans have been much tougher in recent years than the Democrats, since only about 15 Reupblicans live in the city anyway)
Services reportedly are improving (and the crime rate declining) from where it was a few years ago, thanks also to the arrival (finally) of an apparently-competent local administration.
And of course, they also got new Green Line stations this year.
J. Lee: A cheer of us Republicans. At least on the state and local level we do very well, while the Dems screw things up. Howevever, I keep hearing about the Second Avenue Line. I'm intrigued about that. What boroughs was it supposed to run in. Was it all underground or what? Did they even work out those ideas before the plan was shelved.? Come on guys, I'm anxious to hear about it. Lundy's? I heard it was the greatest sea food restaurant in the world, but no one told me it was back in business. DAMN!!!!!. I love seafood and you can bet that when I return to NY that's the first place I'm going---if I can find out how to get there.
Lundy's Restaurant is at the same location -- at the corner of Emmons and Ocean Ave. Your best bet is to take the Brighton "D" to the Sheepshead Bay stop and then it's just a short walk to down Shore Rd. to Ocean and Lundy's.
Doug aka BMTman
Or Emmons Ave to Ocean
Doug BMT Man: Thanks I owe you one. Maybe when I get back to New York I can touch base with you and treat you to dinner at Lundy's.
How's that?
No problem, Fred. Much appreciated. Just remember to bring your bank account!
Doug aka BMTman
The 2nd Ave. line was supposed to begin at the foot of Manhattan and run all the way up the East Side to the Bronx, where it would have liked up with, I believe, one or both Dual Contracts IRT lines which would have been modified to IND/BMT clearances. Several branches were also planned in Manhattan, and it would have been underground through the entire borough. There is a wealth of reading material on this website on the 2nd Ave. line. In addition, there was a plan to extend the line to Brooklyn by a separate tunnel and tie it in at Court St., where the Transit Museum is.
>Sears. While many if not most of their stores are in suburban
>locations today, the first Sears stores were in downtown locations.
Funny you should use Sears as an example; they were also among the first department stores to move OUT of downtown locations to free-standing stores in suburban areas before the advent of the mall. Their former store in Norristown PA is a prime example (corner of DeKalb Pike (US 202) and Johnson Highway). Sears was located there in a free-standing store, but moved to King of Prussia Plaza during its 1980s expansion.
-Dave
Well, they also closed their store in Wayne when they opened the store in King of Prussia. Their store in Wayne was not any sort of downtown location. So I think that they may just have been on the King of Prussia bandwagon, as opposed to stampeding out of downtown.
NY Historians say Sears pioneered "auto-oriented" retailing in NYC with its 1933 Flatbush store. They moved there, with a parking lot, rather than to Downtown Brooklyn. At the time, Flatbush and Flatlands were the affluent, developing suburbs while "Old Brooklyn" -- the areas built before 1900 -- was the "inner city." Of course, Flatbush was also served by trolley.
But since it doesn't have a highway and is a good distance from most subways, its sort of the odd man out among Brooklyn commercial centers. Not enough road access for drivers, and not enough transit access for non-drivers. It wouldn't surprise me if Sears Flatbush closed after Sears Atlantic Center opened.
Without knowing the financial health of the Sears Flatbush, it doesn't need to be conveniently located for sprawling masses to have access to it. There is a whole surrounding community of middle class home owning people, who find this a convenient store for paints, household appliances , and clothing. And as a result, Sears Flatbush has a character all its own. It has a very attractive Deco appearance, and has a flavor of the 30's and 40's without becoming a clone of the 90's. It has a large free parking lot, unlike Kings Plaza Sears, and is probably less congested than the current mall down at Atlantic near the old bus storage yard. By the way, I am not in love with Sears, as over the years they have been cited for a number of deceptive practices.
[It wouldn't surprise me if Sears Flatbush closed after Sears Atlantic Center opened.]
Which should be, oh, sometime in the early summer of 2025.
Dave: Speaking of businesses moving out, as an Italian-American I know that Ronzoni moved out of Queens to Pennsylvania, but I never found out what happened to the Brooklyn company LaRosa. Did they go out of business or move? I don't think I've seen a package of that brand in two or three decades. And, of course, the candy stores of my youth are gone.
The old fashioned Mom & Pop type candy stores of yore are long gone (save maybe one or two in Queens, or Brooklyn, off the beaten path). Either they just went out of business, or have been replaced by Bodegas (sp?). These are basically Puerto Rican or Dominican run combination candy store/mini-supermarket. Occasionaly, and in better areas these will tend to be owned/operated by Koreans (watch out for those HIGH prices).
Doug aka BMTman
[These (bodegas) are basically Puerto Rican or Dominican run combination candy store/mini-supermarket. Occasionaly, and in better areas these will tend to be owned/operated by Koreans (watch out for those HIGH prices).]
There was a Korean deli around the corner from my office on 14th Street that recently closed for renovations. It's now about to reopen as a "gourmet" food market. Among other things, the sign in front says it'll carry caviar and truffles.
Guess I won't be needing to bring peanut butter sandwiches and potato chips for lunch anymore :-)
"'Sears. While many if not most of their stores are in suburban locations today, the first Sears stores were in downtown locations.'"
"Funny you should use Sears as an example; they were also among the first department stores to move OUT of downtown locations to free-standing stores in suburban areas before the advent of the mall. Their former store in Norristown PA is a prime example (corner of DeKalb Pike (US 202) and Johnson Highway). Sears was located there in a free-standing store, but moved to King of Prussia Plaza during its 1980s expansion."
Just to give another data point, Sears closed its store in downtown Chicago (State between VanBuren and Congress) in the 1960s, IIRC, and that huge building has been basically empty until a college moved in just a couple of years ago. On the other hand, Sears built several Art-Deco-style stores in the 1930s in Chicago neighborhoods near transit lines (on Lawrence near the Brown Line and the Metra UP North, Six Corners where three bus lines cross, Harlem and North at the end of the North Avenue bus line, etc.) and most of these are still open. While they all have parking lots, they are all also served by good bus or even L service.
[As far as Toys 'R' Us is concerned, I can't figure out why there are
so many.]
One explanation could be those decade old rumors that 'Toys R' Us' was tied to organized crime -- apparently as an avenue for laundering money. Although nothing was ever uncovered, it is peculiar how heavy-handed their representation is in the greater New York area.
Also, I recall the chain was found to be guilty of price-fixing a few years back, if my memory is correct.
Doug aka BMTman
O quit complaining guys, at least you have the subway to get around. Out here in Southern California, we have no subway, the bus system is the pits for the most part, and the traffic in the suburbs can't be believed. You have nothing like it except in Manhattan. Our malls are indoors, air conditioned and really swanky. We love them but hate the traaffic.
Hey Fred how about the Red Line, Green and Blue Lines and yest the bus lines stink, especially in the Valley. Then there is the 405 Parking Lot from Sylmar to Orange County
Bob #1 Brighton Express: First of all I'm glad you use the old designation for the train instead of D. As for our transportation in Southern California, the Red Line is an eight stop ( I think) subway, very clean and modern but it is in downtown LA. LA is very spread out so very few of us can take advantage of it. The Blue line is a trolley-type and a good line running from Long Beach to LA. It goes underground before the last stop at 7th Street where it meets up with the Red Line. However, most cities in the suburbs of LA County are too far away for service. The Green Line goes from Norwalk to near the airport, but not to it---if you can believe that. I'm afraid most of us are still dependent on our cars. I'm not knocking it. I love California. BUT we need more and better public transportation out here. By the way, today is the 45th anniversary of my being a Californian. September 29, 1954 was the day I spent as my first out here. It was also the day Willie Mays made that fantastic catch in the first game of the 1954 World Series.
"Bob #1 Brighton Express: First of all I'm glad you use the old designation for the train instead of D."
Umm, he uses Q and that's the current designator. The D is local.
When I lived on Kings Highway, there was no Q. The D Ran on McDonald Ave, The F terminated in Manhatten. The Brighton EXP was the 1. The Franklin was the 7. Fred from the Sea beach Line, As I stated I lived in the Valley until 1/17/94 in Northridge. To those who do not know what was so important that day. It was Northridge, and to know it still was the biggest disaster in terms of money that USA had. And I was right on top of it on Reseda Blvd. I knwo LA well. I know the people of LA turned down more money for transit. It seems that they would rather stay in their cars get tied up 9on the 5, 10, 101 and 405 and spend 12 hours a week or more to commute 1 person in a car.
I thought the most expensive was Hurricane Andrew.
No according to Fema It was the Northridge Quake, because the property in LA cost more then in Florida
Bob: And that's stupid, I agree. I don't like traffic and you can bet I'd trade that anguish for good public transportation.
Hey Fred, You haven't been to Long Island in a while, have you? The traffic in Nassau County is horrendous!! Just getting from East Meadow to Mineola at times can be a nightmare, especially if you are trying to catch a diesel to the city when you know the next diesel is in about 3 hours with 6 boring M-1 or M-3's in between!!!
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Jeff: Misery loves company Sarge. I didn't know it was so bad in Nassau County. I still thought of that as the suburbs or country. I suppose things have changed radically since I was there last. It isn't always that bad out here. You have to know when to travel. If you pick the right time you're ok. If you're out during a rush hour, God help you. You will be late no matter where you're going.
It's not bad at all!!! He just likes riding in the old diesels and hates the MUs (and probably the new diesels I guess, I rode one today BTW, see other post). Service at Mineola is pretty frequent if you are not repulsed by riding MUs.
BTW, how does one tell apart an M-1 or an M-3?
9/29/99
Well,car numbers does it. 9771-9946. The original LIRR M-3's numbers stopped at 9944. When the December 1993 shootings occured , they were on 9892,(9891-92 set). After the investigations etc,the cars were cleaned up repaired and made ready for service again. This time they didn't return with the numbers #9891-92. They were renumbered #9945-46 because of the horror of the whole incident.
Another way to tell and there are many is the traction motor cooling fan intakes that sacrifice one window on each side. Also they were delivered with front rollsigns above engineers window,later removed for installation of some speed control equipment. Metro North kept their signs. When riding and approaching(example Jamaica),M-1 flourescent lights go out and small incandescent lamps in several fixtures provides light. On M-3's when interior lights go out,selected small flourescent ceiling lights stay on near doorways. There are other miniscule ways of telling but those are the major ones. When new in 1985 they were first banned from running in solid consists because of fear of blowing out sub-stations on certain lines. They had to run mixed with M-1's. Also when first new they ran solid in consists to Brooklyn until some bugs were worked out .and then ran mixed
[re anti-retail idiot politicians (forgive the redundancy) in Brooklyn]
These morons should take a lesson from West Virginia. Yep, the much-maligned Mountaineer State holds an important lesson for Brooklyn.
A recent posting on misc.transport.road had an interesting fact about Wal-Mart and West Virginia. Ten years ago there were no Wal-Marts in the state at all; today they're the largest private-sector employer. And there actually are parallels between West Virginia and Brooklyn. Both places saw major employment declines in what had been their leading economic sectors (coal mining for West Virginia, manufacturing for Brooklyn); both places have historically high unemployment and poverty rates; and a relatively high percentage of the population in both places are poorly educated with few if any job skills.
While West Virginia is hardly going to be mistaken for Beverly Hills, it's fair to say that the huge number of jobs created by Wal-Mart (and probably by other national retail chains) has been an important economic boost to both the state's economy and to the lives of thousands of people. Brooklyn and its residents could use the same helping hand.
(I'll note that Brooklyn politicians surely would scorn the idea of Wal-Mart jobs, as they think borough residents all should be making $25 per hour. That'd be terrific, but it's not going to happen, not in this universe).
One of the best Wal Marts is in the Charlestown WV near Martinsville and DC
The article is also online at:
http://www.mostnewyork.com/1999-09-25/News_and_Views/City_Beat/a-41713.asp
You have to realize that I live in the past because
I find the rent is cheaper. But I would buy a whole
new fleet of Low V's for the IRT, Standards
Triplexes, and R1/9's for BMT-IND. Everything to
have regular light bulbs, no flourescents. Maybe,
have the conductor's position inside the train like
the standards for safety. Put all dim incandescent
lighting back in the stations. Wicker seats,
ceiling fans, toasty heaters under the seats,
deafening sounds, and unobstructed front windows for
the buffs. (That's probably the only thing people
will agree with me on.) This way we can go into the
new millenium in the style of the 30's and 40's and
bring back some peace to the city.
Don't forget the old pre-war LIRR electric cars, you know, with the bull/pinion gear sounds, compressor sounds, reversible seats, very cushiony seats, and the steps to/from the low platforms.
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Oh yes, spur-cut bull and pinion gears all the way. Less expensive to manufacture and noisier than the helical-cut variety, but much more colorful.
A more modern version of the Triplex would be nice as well.
Not to get things stirred up again, but would you pay a higher fare for a substantial contract increase for TA line workers (given the productivity improvements of the past and the promise of more in the future). I would. Perhaps the MTA should pose that question directly. Riders are probably more likely to be sympathetic to workers than taxpayers at this point, especially given the fare reductions of the recent past.
People don't like to pay a higher price for anything for any reason.
The New York City transit fare has been a political football for 80 years, so it is one of the last things that people would voluntarily pay for more.
No. Even at their best transit workers are hardly a model of efficiency. Also, aren't 'riders' and 'taxpayers' the same? The whole idea of 'deserving' a raise because of the so-called 'surplus' is absurd. In other words, give it all away and start the cycle of decline once more.
Raise is the last issue on many of our minds. Money is
what the TA wants the public to think this is about, but
it's not. R*E*S*P*E*C*T!!!
Perfect example:
TA talks a good game about safety, but they are so full of
it. There have been bulletins issued about getting enough
rest and sleep. Especially after the Williamsburg Bridge
wreck.
Then why do I have to work from 8 to 16:00 all week, then
it's
ok for me to come in at THREE AM today!? And it's not
overtime! 3 AM? I suppose when I got home they expected
me to just go to bed? And as I did try, I lay there
staring at the ceiling like a child trying to sleep. With
the sun coming through the window. So at 9 when I gave up
I sat watching TV till 2 AM and then I went to work. With
0 sleep. Now I'm out there flagging trains from 3AM till
15:00 this afternoon. With NO sleep since Friday 7 AM.
This is safe?
But when I called once to say that I hadn't had enough
sleep, I was forced to take a sick day( there's another
disiplinary issue!) and see the TA's doctor! SO if you try
and claim and rightly so, that your're fatigued you get
harrased.
Frequently I get a job on Sat. that finishes at 23:45 or
so. Then I'm expected back at 8 the next day. Complain?.
"You had 8 hours between tours!" is the answer. Oh,
really? I live across the street?
Tour changes are frequent too. On Sat. night I'll work from
20:00 till 05:30. Then they want me in on Monday at 04:00!
Hello?! Jet lag? The TA's own doctor told me that it's a
scientific fact that it takes the human body 7 days to adjust to a radical tour change. Their OWN doctor!
Serious about safety! F.U!
Serious about saving money? You bet!
So next time you look out the railfan window at me or another construction flagman, know this: he probably is half asleep as he protects the lives of those workers!
This is the trust of public safety that TA cares about?
Even though studies I have read suggest sleep/wake cycle reset on average @ 72 hrs. the sheer insanity of using insufficiently rested workers only shows these guys up as being as lame as medical execs who actually think residents delivert decent care on 24 hour shifts. While I have disagreed with you previously as to the legalisms of striking, I agree with you that safety should be primary. I might say TWU would do well to make more public "noise" about management disregard for safety as a prelude to adding clauses in the contract to protect everybody.
Not only did the TWU fail to address the safety issues pertaining to a collision on the Williamsburg Bridge a few years back, the NTSB failed to have the conditions corrected. I don't give a rat's a** what some "experts" think is proper deceleration, the NYCTA does put money ahead of safety, whether it was removing the inshot or modifying brake pressures through modified J-relays. In my opinion, it was ok to have flat spotting on trains predating 1989 because they conformed to stopping distances comparible to those by the FRA on governed equipment. If those R-10s were thrown into emergency and you got 82 pounds or over to stop the train, collisions were fewer than those that occured in the '90s. If it were the signal dolly involved, which still has cast iron brake shoes, then the collision damage and injuries would have been reduced significantly or even avoided. The TA has no oversight and no threat of fines over those in CED. The operating rules are enforced when it comes to Labor Relations and the suspension in lieu of fines but bulletins are almost never printed or incorporated into the rulebook the way bulletin orders are on a railroad. No one in the TA should be in the dark when it comes to safety rules but the truth in TA is that they don't want anyone operating a train to know, for example, that a train operating with a blue light condition must operate at a reduced speed until the indicator light goes out or restricted speed until the next station before the conductor can check it out. I would hardly call engineering a safe envirionment when they have unlimited powers to change principles that aren't broken. Acts of congress, Railway rules and instructions similar to NORAC that mandate safety and the Code of Federal Regulations may sound excessive but as far as the car equipment is concerned, it will still look as if an Arrow III will have a better chance to retire in a museum than its TA counterparts that got split in half did.
I'm not afraid of TA employees falling asleep at the switch. I'm afraid of truckers. Now THERE is a problem. If the rest rules were actually enforced, ever trailer would be traveling TOFC.
Amen to that! And my son-in-law and one of my brothers-in-law are truckers.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You have laid it out very well. I know some people who can sleep at the drop of a hat, some of us can not. This is were respect comes in to play. If an employee is telling you he is unable to handle a specific tour change or needs more than 8hrs before starting work again he/she should be taken seriously and accomidated. I have never accepted 8hrs between tours and have always gotten 12. But why do I have to call or threaten to call the Control Center. This all makes me very sad, I have worked a lot of jobs in my life, having nothing to tie me down, I went for the experiences. I was hopeing to settle down at the ripe age of 35. I don't know how people can tolerate working for the TA. I keep thiking there is somthing wrong with me. Maybe I just don't have what it takes to work for this buracratic nightmare.
I think I know what it might be. I thrive on team work, enthusiasim, and respect for one another. Money would be about 4th on my list of importance. I would bend over backwards to serve my employer and protect his intrests, but careing is a two way street. Thanks for allowing me to ramble, sorry about the spelling.
Don't feel bad. I came here knowing full well what I was
getting into. But I'm the same. I was full of enthusiasm,
and team spirit. It was beaten out of me.
But here there is very little of that. Almost no
professionalism, and our employer holds us in utter
contempt. I have worked on or for every rail carrier in
the tri-state area while awaiting my civil service
appointment. Never did I see such low employee morale, or
an organization so dedicated to mediocrity.
Let me give you a perfect example:
Right now I'm facing 20 days suspenson at step two
hearings for rule violations. Why? Because I fixed a
train. The train was disabled and I did what was neccesary
to get it moving.
The Authority alleges this violates the rule against
employee tampering. Because I'm a conductor and not a CED
employee. Never mind that they trained me in car equipment
and I have certificates from them for that training. Never
mind that there's a half dozen rules not only permitting
me to have taken that action, but REQUIRING me to do so.
I'm not worried, because after we skip the kangaroo court
that is step 2, we can see an impartial arbitrator. Any
one with reason can see the Authority's witch hunt for
what it is.
But the whole point is they will do anything to intimidate
and eliminate any one who tries to stand up and say: "This
is wrong!"
So after all this I'm convinced my future is with the
union. I never was an activist before. I vote Republican, I'm into small Govt. and against most every political position the unions take. All except that I think the management at TA is dead wrong. I don't feel that way about management in general either. NJT has excellent management, and is probably the finest rail carrier in America today. AmTrak's management is a leader in the industry. Etc. etc.
But I'm here now. I gave up a promising carreer with the RR to come here. I love this little RR right here, and I'll be damned if I let the heartless fools who run this place get away with it. I thought about moving up the carreer ladder,but in the 15 years or so it may take to get to a position where I could do something it would be too late. So I decided to join forces with the union.
What good would it do to go up the ladder anyway? Any one
above me would be afraid of me and my radical ideas, and
do their best to keep me down. It's the fate of those who
can to be kept down by those who cannot. TA is the home of
the mediocre!
Look at poor Steve! The man's a genius! And he's only made
it as far as deputy! While a connected guy like Hoffmann
gets V.P.!?
Thanks for your thoughts. I hope every thing works out for you, but seeing as you have union ambitions, they will got straight for the throat. As for me, I'll bear the "Mediocre" as long as I can then I'll move on. About three month ago I joined the announcer program, looking for a new and different challange. Unbeliveable!! The amount of restrictions in that program. No being me here. But its different and is a definite daily challenge. Alot more to it then it seems. I passed the last Train Operators test and some of my classmates have been appointed provisional from the list. Maybe I'll be called soon and I'll give it a whirl.
Michael
The T.A, and in particular, supervisors and managers need training in Human Resource management!
Any TA managers who become good at human resource management are hired away by the private sector for double the pay. You get what you pay for.
Does anyone know why August Belmont called his private subway car the Mineola? It's an interesting thought!!!
Didn't he live or have property in Mineola? That could be one of the explanations.
Doug aka BMTman
I think that Belmont was on the Board of Directors of the LIRR at the same time he headed the IRT. Perhaps that has something to do with it.
Girl on the side? I figure he used the car for private trysts. Her name was Mineola. :-P
I hope August was more successful in that endeavor than he was tyring to defeat Abraham Lincoln for reelection in 1864 and turning over the country to a pack of traitorous Copperheads who would have delivered the rebellious South to permanent separation from the US. To me, he is one of the most despised men in American History. Maybe he named his car Mineola because he thought it was some kind of fruit----like the lemon he was.
Whoa! Let's not start the War of Northern Aggression up again on this forum. I may live in the North at the moment and have a fondness for the subway, but I'll be a Reb until my dying day!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse: I'm an unreconstructed Yankee who looks to Sherman as a hero who did a great job in teaching the South a badly needed lesson but I do have friends from the South and the wife's maiden name is Harvey and that makes her a direct descendant of Robert E. Lee, if you can believe that. My father in law's middle name is Lee, my brother in law is Lee, and, therefore, my 20 year old daughter carries some of the Lee genes. No sir, there will be no war here because you are a valued colleague and I'd rather discuss the subway than the War of the Rebellion. You know I just got over a scrape with BX55 and I'm looking to smoke the peace pipe with her. I want no adversaries on this line. This is just too much fun. Take care.
Truth be told, I had family on both sides at Gettysburg - my great-great-grandfather arrived with his Union regiment for the third day of the battle and I'm probably kin to half of the North Carolinians that were there, or at least to those from Henderson and Transylvania counties (most of whom, but not all, were Confederates). But my sympathies are clearly with the right of the South to secede, just as the thirteen colonies did from Great Britain.
Anyway, back to the subway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What else would you call that car??
Is today the LIRR fantrip? I guess alot of the SubTalk posters are there because there is half the postings today!
I was there and have to say it was great! I met spotted two SubTalk posters along the way, Mark W. and Steve K. Gosh we went everywhere. It seems some of the local towns folk were shocked to see a diesel passenger train in an area only normally transversed by the a breed of animal referred to as the electric MU. The train comprised of GP38-2, several coaches/parlors, and an FA powerpack were all there. We went to Babylon, Island Park, Long Island City, travelled through Jamaica Yard, and went to Hempstead Gardens on the West Hempstead Branch. Oh, and we also stopped short of Port Wash.
There's just one question on my mind: Why was the diesel train banned from Long Beach, Port Wash, and West Hempstead? That wasn't clear to me.
It's a good way to say farewell to the old LIRR equipment because the new stuff is here to stay. Yes, the DE30AC and DM30AC rule! Did I say DM30AC? Did I forget to say I spotted two units at the Yard in Jamaica? I guess they're in testing.
-Stef
Correction, I met Steve K along the way, and I spotted Mark W., but he looked occupied, so I didn't chat with him.
All in all, another excursion should occur. Bilevels? Dual modes? How about the electric MU for a charter??
-Stef
Electric MU for a charter? I don't know about everybody else, but those M1's do nothing for me! It may be the "Fantrip that Nobody Shows up for!"
Ahem! Au contraire, mes amis, it might be just what it would take to get a few of us electric fans out!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm afraid I have to agree with Bill on this one. There are alot of interesting electric MUs that have operated in the past on the LIRR. Btut he current MU fleet is dull as farina. They just don't do much for me. There's so little distinctive about the M1 fleet that they can only be differentiated from the M3s by the window design.
Think back to the old days when MUs had some variety. One could fairly easilly tell an MP54 from an MP70.
It's not that there is anything wrong with electrically powered trains. That part is just fine.
The problem is that LIRR management has done nothing that would give any particular car a personality. They all look exactly the same and sound exactly the same. I think the M1 could have been designed in a more interesting style. The way they are now - Melba toast is more exciting.
True, true. I personally don't find anything wrong with the electric MUs on LIRR/Metro North. Like everything else that has come our way, this breed of animal will become a thing of the past.
MP54s? MP70s? It's a shame that the LIRR wasn't railfan friendly back in the days when they should have preserved the equipment. Otherwise, I think that we would've been riding MP54s on a LIRR fan trip.
Consider this: I'd find it to be a thrill to ride the MU's on trackage where passengers aren't normally permitted. Heck, I'd ride into the West Side Yard given the opportunity!!!
-Stef
How about a trip with the 1100 series ACMUs on MNCR?
It could run something like this -
* GCT to Brewster North (Maybe a tour of the Brewster shop)
* Brewster North to Mott Haven
* Mott Haven to Croton Harmon
* Returning to GCT
I don't have the connections necesary to make this happen. But other people on this board do.
Dave Ross of the NY ERA - if you read this - do you think it could be arranged?
Not bad. This has happened already, actually. Last year, David Ross and Company put together an ACMU excursion, August 1998 (Thanks, David). I suppose if enough people clamor for it, another excursion could be in the works, depending on what the ERA can arrange.
A train for just the railfans is a real treat... You can't ask for anything better!!!
I'll tell you what I'd like to see. It's been a few years since the ERA had an excursion in NYCT. With the end of some (if not all) Redbirds nearing, it would be a great time to have a "Farewell to the Redbirds" excursion.
-Stef
Somehow I expect a good number of these to happen.
--Mark
Get in your WABAC machine...we had a very successful 1100-series fantrip last year!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
[How about a trip with the 1100 series ACMUs on MNCR?
It could run something like this -
* GCT to Brewster North (Maybe a tour of the Brewster shop)
* Brewster North to Mott Haven
* Mott Haven to Croton Harmon
* Returning to GCT
I don't have the connections necesary to make this happen. But other people on this board do.
Dave Ross of the NY ERA - if you read this - do you think it could be arranged?]
David - "If you build it they will come."
I know that phrase was in a movie. But I think it would apply here too. Many of the people on this bbs would attend and lots of others would too. A trip of this mature could raise $$ for the ERA and be alot of fun for all. Is it possible that you could arrange another ACMU fantrip?
I bet you could get a great turnout if you offered it up one more time.
You did a great job in organizing the LIRR fan trip this past weekend.
Can you pull another one out of your hat in putting one together with ACMUs GCT-Brewster - Mott Haven - Croton Harmon - GCT?
Actually, I had little to do with organizing the trip. Credit goes to chairman Charlie Akins and Director/Trip Committee Chairman Glenn Smith.
I'll pass your suggestion on to them.
David
[David - "If you build it they will come."
I know that phrase was in a movie. But I think it would apply here too. Many of the people on this bbs would attend and lots of others would too. A trip of this mature could raise $$ for the ERA and be alot of fun for all. Is it possible that you could arrange another ACMU fantrip?
I bet you could get a great turnout if you offered it up one more time.
You did a great job in organizing the LIRR fan trip this past weekend.
Can you pull another one out of your hat in putting one together with ACMUs GCT-Brewster - Mott Haven - Croton Harmon - GCT?]
Please see what you can do - there's a bunch of us who would like that!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
9/28/99
I know there's a full moon out tonight but take me seriously on this. How about a ACMU trip on the LIRR. Yes,a change of third rail shoes can make it happen. Perhaps when replacement equipment fazes them out this could be done. I don't know if Metro-North can spare them for a fantrip. Remember those fantrips of the LIRR push-pulls on Metro North territory?
Bill Newkirk
[ How about a ACMU trip on the LIRR. ]
That'd be great -- well maintained equipment on Long Island. I'll buy my ticket now.
[ Consider this: I'd find it to be a thrill to ride the MU's on trackage
where passengers aren't normally permitted. Heck, I'd ride into the
West Side Yard given the opportunity!!! ]
I'm sure you could, if you went to Penn during rush hour, and just hopped on. They aren't usually very good about checking to make sure trains are empty before going west out of Penn, escpecially during rush hours when they're trying to clear station tracks as quickly as possible.
>MP54s? MP70s? It's a shame that the LIRR wasn't railfan friendly back >in the days when they should have preserved the equipment. Otherwise, >I think that we would've been riding MP54s on a LIRR fan trip.
Well, the LIRR barely acknowlages the existance of those cars. I've been trying for 3 weeks over the phone and have gone nowhere. Nor was the RR Museum of LI any help either. It's like they're cursed or something.
Meanwhile, the rep from Union Switch and Signal gets back to me this morning on my ASC data finding mission. He's researching it for me. Oh and yes, if the manuals exist, I WILL be getting copies :) At least that'll be one less mess to worry about. For yuck value, I might call WABCO and see if they remember AMUE (ME-23 (?) valve, I have the other important stuff listed somewhere here).
I guess if you wanted MP-54s - there's plenty ex-septa and PC ones floating around, and the NEC still has 25hz trackage - as a matter of fact, I believe Septa has a few as work motors, in addition to a few Blueliners. If I knew any more info, would have combed over philly this summer, in fact, I might this fall (with my non-train (but likes big machinery) freak friend Tony) also need to see 30th street, I hear it's beautiful...
Oh, and there's that one up in Maine that somebody was looking at getting functional :)
I hope the MP54 gets to roll down Seashore's tracks. Good luck.
-Stef
But I love Melba Toast! :)
--Mark
Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the MU's were the pre-war electric cars with the windows that open. Are there any remaining anywhere???
9/26/99
Jeff,
You may be describing the MP-54 MU's. There is one up at the Connecticut Trolley Museum at East Windsor (not Branford). I last rode it when a ERA chartered a bus a dozen years ago and was running then. It since has been sidelined and not turned a wheel.I haven't visited this year so,who knows?
Try the MPB-54 (combine) on the trip to Port Jefferson on RTE-112.
There is another one,just like the one above mentioned ,part of the tuscan red cars that were displayed in Flatbush Avenue in the late 70's.This one is a arch roof (ping-pong) car turned into a restaurant in Water Mill way out east. It's by the ROW on an old LIRR station property. The station building is the main restaurant.
Then there is 9 steam/diesel T-54's up at the NJT Boonton station in New Jersey,not MU's.
Anybody out there who can add to the list of any LIRR MP-54's still in existance?
Bill Newkirk
We have an MP-54 at the Seashore Trolley Museum in Kennebunkport, Maine. It hasn't run in many years; one of our fellow SubTalkers is interested in "adopting" it however!
Hey Todd - who could that possibly be :)
[ Connecticut Trolley Museum at East Windsor (not Branford). I last rode
it when a ERA chartered a bus a dozen years ago and was running then.
It since has been sidelined and not turned a wheel.I haven't visited
this year so,who knows? ]
I saw it a month or so ago, and although I didn't inspect it thoroughly, it didn't _look_ like it was going anywhere, anytime soon.
Thanks for the other locations, though.
MU has frequently been used as a generic term - indicating Multiple Unit trains - electrically powered.
I have used the term myself to describe anything from M1s to MP72s to ACMUs.
Anyway - the point is that many people will use that term when talking about electrically powered multiple unit cars that are individually powered off third rail or catenary.
[ Maybe I'm wrong but I thought the MU's were the pre-war electric cars
with the windows that open. Are there any remaining anywhere??? ]
The current MUs on the LIRR are the M1 and M3 cars, built by Budd in 1970-72 and 1985, respectively. "MU" is short for "Multiple-Unit", and refers to a set of powered railcars controled from one master controller. "EMU" specifically are Electric MUs, and describe the LIRR electric fleet, the entire NYCT passenger fleet, etc. "MU" also describes a set of diesels (i.e. frieght) working together and controlled from the head unit.
Anyways, the last prewar MUs from the LIRR would be the MP54 cars, of which I think 3 still exist, regular passenger cars at Conn Trolley Museum (Warehouse Pt) and Seashore (Kennebunkport), and a combine at RMLI.
Many of the soon to be retired LIRR diesel push-pull coaches used to be electric MU cars as well.
9/25/99
Stef,
Bill Newkirk was there too. I was hawking the 2000 New York City subway calendars as well a shooting at the photo stops. How many other SubTalkers were there? C'mon,fess up!
Bill Newkirk
So that was you! I wasn't sure. I was sitting in Car 2857, sitting up towards the front on the left side, while you were passing by. The gentleman wearing the black pants and the blue shirt with a Kangol Hat was me.
-Stef
9/25/99
Stef,
I don't remember,I do remember trying to keep my balance carrying those heavy calendars while those push-pull cars were boucing like crazy !! We'll meet again under quieter circumstances.
Bill Newkirk
I was there with my 2 sons behind diesel 260.
I was there as was Peggy who got some great notes for the forthcoming LIRR station by station- Peggy advised me that she'll have to ride the other branches and fill in some spots mised yesterday. I rode in 2877, right behind the diesel.
I met Bill Newkirk, Bill from Maspeth, and an assistant dispatcher from Lefferts Blvd midnight shift( not on the site because he does not have a pc). While waiting at Jamaica I talked to a long time L.I. Resident- retired teacher who'll be sending more info (which I'll place on the site.)
Jamaica-the rehab looks great --they did the main level. No if they'd do the mid-level!
We ask about the train- the announcer knew nothing of us! he called the station master who also knew nothing, but made some phone calls and proved to be quite helpful- hats off to HER!!
I was the car host in 2877, the easternmost car (the one with the working air conditioning!).
NYD's thanks to all who attended.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated.
Great trip! Thanks for everything.
Hey Folks, Did anyone take notice in which how LOUD 614s horn was at Hempstead Gardens? Also why was the horn even LOUDER at ISLAND PARK grade crossing??? Did any one get the above mentioned locations on video? If you did please contact me. Thank you very much. P S Was there any reason why 614s horn was SO LOUD????
[ Hey Folks, Did anyone take notice in which how LOUD 614s horn was at
Hempstead Gardens? Also why was the horn even LOUDER at ISLAND PARK
grade crossing??? Did any one get the above mentioned locations on
video? If you did please contact me. Thank you very much. P S Was
there any reason why 614s horn was SO LOUD???? ]
I did get video of those sites, as well as many others.
614's whistle was so loud only because Dennis opened up the valve full-bore, whereasin other circumstances engineers typically only open it partially. If I were the engineer I'd have done the same thing, mostly because with all the people looking into their cameras and standing right near the tracks, I want them to know I'm coming -- and also I want the supervision around to know I blew the whistle loud and clear in case someone ends up under the trucks.. Also, it probably makes for better videotapes :)
Now they can scrap the junk. The Bilevels rule!
No, don't say that. Its only junk because they renovated them to look like M-3's with non-reversible seats, etc. And maybe they could clean a window at least once a year. They were great cars years ago!! The diesel locomotives are great & I'm going to miss 'em. The only thing the bi-levels are good for is to look up pretty girls skirts on the platforms from the lower level!!!!!
9/27/99
Jeff,
I fail to see how great these cars were years ago unless the ride quality was better. The '72's bounce over switches and the buffer plates bang loudly compared to other diesel cars I've ridden on in my life.And as far as sitting in the lower level to view the "scenery",oh well!!
Bill Newkirk
Very nice trip. Looking forward to next year's all-day trip. I also went on last year's Metro North trip. Thanks for posting on subtalk
[ I was the car host in 2877, the easternmost car (the one with the
working air conditioning!). ]
I dunno about the rest of the cars, but I do know that 2877's A/C was only on because I went into the locker and turned it on. It was getting real warm in there.
Oh, YOU'RE the guy? Thanks!
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
[I dunno about the rest of the cars, but I do know that 2877's A/C was only on because I went into the locker and turned it on. It was getting real warm in there.]
To David Ross, I am interested in the NY era, could you sdend me information, even though I live in Hawaii, I will be coming back to the East Coast by the end of 2000 to live, and I have family back there, so i come twice a year. Bobnjudy3@juno.com Mahalo Bob R
NYD has an admittedly outof-date (though we're working on it) web page:
http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era
It's got a membership form for NYD.
Anyone who'd like a membership form for ERA should send their snail mail address to:
era@juno.com
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
thank you
[ SubTalkers were there? C'mon,fess up! ]
I was there with my wife, Jenn. We were sitting on the north side of the first coach, just in front of Bill From Maspeth, and diagonally from Dave.
I was onboard. We had a good ride.
The West Hempstead branch was a surprise. I had no idea that the line was as straight and fast as it is.
BTW - I don't know if anybody else made much note - but some people are very curious about specific eqpt assigned on a trip like this. We had GP38-2 #260 for power and the FA unit was #614.
>There's just one question on my mind: Why was the diesel train banned >from Long Beach, Port Wash, and West Hempstead? That wasn't
>clear to me.
I dont' know about Long beach and West Hempstead, I'm guessing the reason you stopped short of port Washington has something to do with the cash flow of the people in that area, not to mention the surrounding nieghborhood likes the peac and quiet of no grade crossings or diesels being around.
Or perhaps there's a weight restriction on the bridge, though they run MP-15s over it in the winter (clearing snow), and hey, that equipment went over it in the 60's! Not to mention the steamers until 1911
Oh yes - and it's single track there too. Don't want to tie things up for those Port Washington/Plandome/Sands Point people :/
We did go over the Manhasset Bay Bridge, and stopped short of the yard at Port before turning around. I wish I could have gotten a picture of the diesel on the Manhasset Bay bridge, but I was on it!
My suspicion is that since they lay up a lot of trains at the Port station on weekends, there was no place to go except for the track that was in 'revenue' service that day. Ditto at Long Beach.
[ >There's just one question on my mind: Why was the diesel train banned
>from Long Beach, Port Wash, and West Hempstead? That wasn't
>clear to me. ]
Conspiracy theories aside (ahem), I think it was simply because of clearance issues at the terminals. They all have canopies over the trackage, which the GP38-2 couldn't duck under.
Maybe because all those stations were terminal stops and the tracks were being used. You always find trains sitting at terminal stops.
I was sitting behind Steve K, across from Dave Wallace, with Peggy Darlington a few rows ahead.
I thought Dave Wallace was in Philadelphia aboard the Mets sinking ship!
The Mets will clinch the wildcard next Sunday. I have faith in Valentine.
I notice this was posted BEFORE the Mets dropped ANOTHER one and the Reds won in extra innings. Stick a fork in the Mets- they're done! (And you can start seasoning the Jets and lighting the charcoal for them, too!)
Bobby V will motivate them don't worry. If they fail to qualify for postseason play, there is always the open competitive Train Operator test!
For Bobby V that is.Just think,he could opertate a train right past his former place of employment.
The 509 Harbourfront streetcar line is well underway between Spadina Avenue and Bathurst Street on Queen's Quay. Rails have been installed from Spadina west about halfway to Bathurst. The right-of-way in the centre of the street is complete through to Bathurst. The intersection trackage at Spadina and Queen's Quay will be installed this fall and the intersection trackage at Lakeshore Blvd/Bathurst Street/Fleet Street will be installed next spring. I believe service, which will run between Union Station and the CNE (Canadian National Exhibition) begins next summer. Apparently frogs and switches will be set well back from that intersection at Lakeshore Blvd. to prevent maintenance and repairs disrupting this busy artery.
I am curious to what is everybody s favorite subway or el ride or memory. When I was a kid, my favorite memory was at the terminal of the IRT Hi/Low Vs is when the motorman, had to climb out and change the marker lights by hand. I think the most scenic rides are as follows. The 7 Into Manhatten with the skyline. The Brighton toward Manhatten, The F to Manhatten on the L Portion after 7th Ave, The West End going to Coney Island, and both bridge lines to Manhatten. I know the A to Rockaway is nice, but I have not done that in 20 years
Mine was going to Brighton Beach during the summer as a kid in the late '50's to early '60's. We usually started at Forest Ave. on the Myrtle/Chambers line (BMT Standard) over the Williamsburg Bridge to Canal St. where we switched to the Brighton Express (Triplex) over the Manhattan Bridge to the beach. Other times we would take the Canarsie line from Halsey St. to Union Square and change for the Brighton Express there.
The Sea Beach from Times Square, 42nd Street to Coney Island was the ride of my childhood memories. The anticipation that we were making progress came at Canal Street because we knew we were coming out of the tunnel and crossing the Manhattan Bridge into Brooklyn. Though we re-entered a tunnel, we were in Brooklyn and knew we were getting close. Then after 59th street the Sea Beach would woosh into these mini-tunnels below street level and then into a bunch of different stations on our way to Coney Island. When we got there finally, we had a thrill of riding our favorite train and a great afternoon and evening to look forward to at the beach and on the rides. Kids living in New York today have no clue to just how great it was to grow up in New York in the late 40's to the mid 50's. The only bummer about it was that to get to 42nd Street we had to take the #2 4th Avenue Local, a boring train that I despised.
9/25/99
Ah yes! My favorite subway memory was being a kid in Brooklyn and patiently waiting for the AB or D type to stop get in the first car and discover nobody using the obvious open window. On a warm summers day having the forceful breeze,smell of cresote ties and OUCH! that whistle warning trackmen are memories I still remember today. Too bad todays children can't experience that with scratched windows or heaven forbid,full width cabs.
My second favorite memory was an occasional ride on the Myrtle Avenue "EL" Q-types. Sitting on a forward facing cross seat,window open from the bottom a few inches and experiencing a slow but bouncy ride was an unforgettable ride on what can be described as a piece of Brooklyn History.
Bill Newkirk
I forgot about the open window on the old AB and D Cars, I remember I used to get nervous over the Manhatten Bridge that my glasses may fall off, through the tracks and into the river. It never happened, but it still scared me
9/26/99
My glasses never fell off. In fact with the breeze coming through the window,the glasses prevented my eyes from drying up. That's one perk us "four eyed" people have at the window the two eyed one don't have. This was last experienced on SEPTA's Market Frankford line on one of the old "Almond Joy" cars last year.
Bill Newkirk
How come you had to change to get to 42nd St to the 4th Ave, is that 42nd St Brooklyn or Times Square, because I remember the expresses all terminated at Times Square, and then were extended to 57th St, except the Brighton which went to Astoria. I found the Sea Beach kind of boring north of 86th St
So do I, the Brighton south of Avenue H is more fun and there's useful express service on that line. I like the 1/9 too. I haven't ridden it before this year, but I think the last el in Manhattan is fun. The old Franklin shuttle was fun too, especially it's decrepitude. The extra platform at Franklin looked nice in a sort of way.
Bob: We took the #2 Broadway local (called the 4th Ave local in Brooklyn) from Queens Plaza to 42nd Street, then took the Sea Beach, or if my parents ignored the scene I'd make, the Brighton Express or the West End to destinations of relatives or ball games or Coney Island in Brooklyn. Sorry for the confusion. As far as the Sea Beach being boring north of 86th, one man's boredom is another's joy. As I've said on numerous occasions, those mini-tunnels just thrilled the heck out of me, and though we were outdoors, we were below street level which I thought was neat as a kid, and the Seaa Beach man still does.
Yeah the Brighton has thosde too, plus upper enbankment and a el, what more can you ask Go Brighton
So did the Brighton, have tunnels, el enbankment, and in the 50s it had both local and express service 6 days a week
I have to go immediately off topic, since, thinking about it, I would say my favorite BMT ride wasn't a subway or el, it was the Church Avenue trolley. When I got a good report card at PS249, my mom would take me for a trolley ride as a reward.
There was a certain charm to riding the big PCCs down city streets, watching the neighborhoods change. Though I liked the ride through East Flatbush, my favorite parts of the line wre all west of Flatbush--the quick rush through the Ocean Parkway tunnel, the junction at Church & MacDonald, crossing the SBK track under the Culver L, a sharp swing at the corner of 13th and 39th past the shop sign "Poor People's Friend."
The long hill down 39th Street seemed desolate and forbidding. At 2nd Avenue, we made a short right turn onto freight trackage on 2nd Avenue, then another switch onto the right-of-way to the 39th Street Ferry, which by that time was history. The warmly lit trolley, which ran almost to the edge of the water, seemed like a safe piece of civilization compared to the windswept desolate waterfront.
Maybe the fact that this was all gone before I turned 11 puts a special magic to it, but the memories are irreplaceable.
Oh! Subway/elevated? Here I was born just a bit too late. I think Sands Street/Brooklyn Bridge/Park Row would have to have been my favorites, but that's in fantasyland. My actual favorite must be the Sunday Franklin Ave. expresses on a B-type. It was a ride through history, from the elevated-era station at Franklin/Fulton, winding through the back alleys of Bed-Stuy and Crown Heights, down the (now) 120-year-old right-of-way to Prospect Park, screeching round the Malbone Street curve, seeing the train sign at Prospect Park flipped up to read "<-- Coney Island Trains -->", then a fast ride to Coney Island via express.
It is hard for me to pick a true favorite.
For speed, I loved the the A train to the Rockaways and the run between 59th and 125th Streets when the R-10 was king.
For scenery, I loved the Flushing Line and the section of the Crosstown Line over the Gowanus Canal.
For the overall trip, I loved the Brighton Line for the mix of old and new.
And For the nostalgia, I loved the Brooklyn Bridge loop under City Hall Station handled by the Pelham Line, but basically the Lexington Avenue Line in General.
Oh yes, I missed one, a working museum by the time I got to ride it in my elementary school days, that is the Myrtle Avenue Line which saw its last run in the aura of the Miracle Mets.
The amazing thing to me about the Myrtle L is that, having seen nothing but steel subway car trains the first decade of my life, I couldn't believe such a thing even existed.
I first saw it while taking an initial ride on the Jamaica Local (now J). I looked up at the gate cars at Broadway-Myrtle and ran up the stairs as fast as could. I was afraid it was like a mirage and, if I didn't jump on that very one instantly, it would rumble off down the line and I'd never see it again.
Since it was new to me, I wondered how such a thing could exist in the modern world of 1957. I didn't have the perspective to understand that this had been the norm for many decades, and I was seeing the last of it.
Until I was old enough to go out to Brooklyn and ride the Myrtle Ave Line, the only gate cars I ever saw were on the 3rd Ave work train.
I coveted a ride on that train for many years. Nothing surpassed that transit experience. However, riding the North Shore in the regular cars and the Electroliners was a close second.
Never rode the North Shore.
However, I did ride the Electroliners on the Philadelphia & Western. The motormen had to watch the ammeters (I guess they were) like hawks to avoid accelerating too fast and blowing out their inadequate power supply.
What an odd match they were on that Philly system.
When did the Myrtle last have gate cars?? I only remember the converted gate cars, the "Q" types on the Myrtle.
9/27/99
The last year they ran was 1958,and those were the convertibles of the #1300 series.
Bill Newkirk
If we have a time machine available, one of the best rides - usually overlooked by others would be the pre-Chrystie street D on the Culver.
The view of the Gowanus was great and the elevated above McDonald Avenue gave a clear view of the Coney Island yard and it's many rusting hulks. Seeing CI from the train was like a bonus. Of course, the equipment you were riding on would have to be R1/9. If you looked really carefully, you might spot an R11 soon to become R34s in the yard.
Second Choice would be Q cars on the Myrtle. If you have been on them - it's just self explanatory. The words classic and ancient don't do them justice.
Third choice is the Brighton with brand new stainless steel and blue R32s - on the express track. They really flew back then!
Hmmmm - seems like the best views on the system are in Brooklyn and Queens...
Hey Dave: Check with "Hey Paul"/ He is making reality glasses that he will sell to you to make things look anyway you want them to. I am buying a couple of pair for my Sea Beach. Paul might become a millionaire because of it, eh? What he doesn't know is that if he could and I had the scratch I would gladly buy them and use them and revel in them. Maybe he knows that.
Gotta get some of those glasses for Big Bill!
Then he can look at Hillary and see whomever he wants.
It could be the biggest blow for monogamy since marriage.
Paul: Oh you kid!. Sensational, I'm still holding my sides, but don't bet on it.
Hey Fred. I'm not making this glasses thing up. I've been wearing the things for the last 6 months. How do you think I manage to retain my sanity? I used to have a lot of trouble, before I was able to see things and people as I wanted to? It's much more fun this way. People take themselves too damn seriously otherwise. You want to buy into my company? Like Click and Clack from Car Talk, I will promise you and anyone else at least a 50% capital depreciation. Within 2 months, you'll be left with half the money you invested. I really like Tom and Ray. It is my secret intention to turn SubTalk into something more like CarTalk. There's got to be lots of laughs here... See you soon on the Sea Beach Triplexes. paul
This should come as no surprise. My favorite ride by far was the express dash up CPW on an A train of immortal R-10s. In terms of brute speed, they had no equal. Incredibly, they seemed to go even faster between Howard Beach and Broad Channel.
For a pure adrenaline rush, the southbound express run from 59th St. Columbus Circle to 42nd St. is near the top of the list. With the R-10s, it bordered on being almost terrifying. You found yourself wondering if the train could even stop at 42nd St. without overshooting the platform. The R-10s stopped on a dime every time.
Just as Fred always insisted on taking a Sea Beach Express, I wouldn't take anything except an A train along 8th Ave. My folks herded us onto an AA once at 14th St. because they didn't want to wait, and I didn't look up once. It didn't matter that the cars were R-32s - it just tore me up. I suppose it could have been worse - they could have herded us onto an E train.
N trains of R-32s as delivered are near and dear to me as well. Blue doors, green backlit side destination signs, and the ability to make an express run look easy set those cars apart. Little wonder I couldn't wait to bolt from a train of BMT standards on the Canarsie at Union Square to a MARKED, sleek, speedy N which could whip past 23rd and 28th Sts. in a flash. I like Gene Sansone's comment on the R-32s when he states they jumped like jackrabbits.
One of my favorite memories was an all-day trip my mother and I made on July 20, 1967. She saw just how immersed I had become in the subway, and we spent the day just riding on trains all over Manhattan and Brooklyn. We even had time to visit the NBC studios in Rockefeller Center. Unfortunately, there wasn't enough time left to go all the way to Coney Island, so we rode as far as DeKalb Ave. On the way back to Manhattan, I saw the abandoned Myrtle Ave. station for the first time.
When we talk about wierd train stations, South Ferry on the IRT 1 line takes the cake. Last month when I was in New York, I decided to visit the Statue of Liberty and took the train to South Ferry. The acoustics on the train was pathetic and we were supposed to be in the first five cars because those were the only ones that opened up. There were obvioiusly many tourists on the train because when it stopped at South Ferry it took forever for the doors to open because they didn't open. Next thing we knew we were three stations back uptown before we got the word of the lst 5 cars. Then we got back to South Ferry and guess what happened? The doors still didn't open. They didn't open for five long minutes. We kept yelling to open those "#@*& doors. It seems the platform was portable and could be moved to let the people out without us having to make a short jump. Finally we got out, and
made it to Battery Park. Anybody coming to New York should be forwarned about that stop. It was ridiculous and the only blemish I had while riding the great New York Subway. I hope visitors are forewarned.
THe subway are amazing. That is just one of them.
THe subway are amazing. That is just one of the amazing things you see.
Funny, I've always liked that station. I used to like the shuttle on the other side. If I remember correctly IIRC, (forgot about that abbreviation) the platform was walled with openings that coincided with the doors. I never understood how they were able to accomodate both the low-V's and post low-V's because the doors were not in the same place.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
my dirty picture collection
AN IMPORTANT MESSAGE FROM ME!!!
I kind of like that station myself, especially the inner platform. There's some good information elsewhere on this site about it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does the 14th St Station still have the moving platforms on the curves. Living way out of NY, when I get to NY I rarely ride the IRT(oops div 1) but I did this past June to get from My hotel at the Hyatt to Yankee Stadium
I should have used the word gap fillers not moving platforms
Why? The announcement there doesn't say "stand clear of the gap fillers as train enters and leaves the station".
The public thinks of them as moving platforms. Officially they are ghap fillers. Yes- they are also at 14th street on the 4/5/6
9/26/99
Well because "moving platform" makes more sense! By the time a passenger tries to figure out what a "gap filler" is he could be in that gap. God forbid!
Bill Newkirk
Trains of Hi-Vs or Lo-Vs using the inner loop would have only their center doors opened because of the sharp curve. This was accomplished most easily with those Hi-Vs whose vestibule doors remained manually operated. Was it possible to selectively open only the center doors on the Lo-Vs?
When the R units began arriving, Lexington Ave. mainline trains were rerouted to the outer loop because it wasn't possible to open only the center doors. The Bowling Green shuttle, when it ran, used four R-12s, 5703-5706, which were modified so they could open only their center doors at the inner loop.
Speaking of Fred's experience, my aunt encoutered the exact same scenario when she visited New York in 1959. She finally located the conductor after about the second or third pass through the loop, and he explained you had to be in the first five cars of the train in order to get off at South Ferry. Unfortunately, she doesn't remember which train she took, nor if the trains were Lo-Vs or R units. I pointed out that if they had been R units, there should have been an announcement.
Every time I've ridden through the loop, there would be announcements as far back as Cortlandt St. BTW, the reason the doors don't open right away is because the gap fillers have to move out first. Otherwise, whoooops!!
I take the 1/9 to rector (stop before South Ferry) everyday to work. He's what I noticed about the incident you described:
It's all about the conductor. Some don't even mention it at all (or barely audable).
At the other end of the spectrum, I've seen conductors go so far as to stop the train at Rector street and personally check every car behind the 5th to make sure no one will get stuck.
Some (conductors) are just better than others .. such is life
Pete: In our case, I can assure you it sure-as-hell-wasn't the latter.
I thought all railfans just gravitate to the front car anyway.
Jeff: This time I didn't because I knew we weren't going to rise out of a tunnel, always the biggest thrill for me. And I paid for it.
My conductor are very go with this annoutsment. One makes the annoutsment as far back as Houston Street." If your getting off at South Ferry move to the first 5 cars. The rear of the train will not open." Also he shuts the last 5 car at Rector St. and tells them if the doors are closed were your at that means your in the last 5 cars and must move to the front and then opens up. Guess what people still stay in the last 5 cars. I seen people move from the 1 car and walk back. Some even ask me while I'm waiting for a train to leave South Ferry if there in the first 5 cars. Hello I'm the train Operator! Lots of them move all the way to the first car. When I have a tranvse They try to enter my cab thinking its not the first car. Good reason to have your cab door locked.
But the main point is
1. Most Conductors do make the currect Anoutsments
2. There are at least one or two signs in each car in all diffrent languages telling you to be in the 1st 5 cars.
Also the Conductor is not suppose to walk to the last 5 cars to make sure everyone is off the train. On the IRT the only terminals where Conductor chase you off is.
1. If the train is going to the yard at any terminal were trains can be layed up.
2.Utica Ave on the No.4 Line
3.Bowling Green on the No.5 Line
4. Brooklyn Bridge on the No.6 Line
How to aviod being left behind
1.Read the sign of the Language of your choice
2.Listen to Annoutsments
3.Or just make sure your in the 1ST 5 cars.
Here's a wacky idea: Pull into South Ferry, open the front 5 cars and let people in & out. After waiting a couple of minutes close down and pull out of South Ferry just far enough that the rear 5 cars can pull into the station. Then open the back 5 cars and wait for the scheduled leaving time.
Sounds simple enough.
It would never work Chris for the following reasons.
1. It makes sense.
2. The TA didn't think of it.
One problem the gap filler will not come out. One you pass the that gap filler single it will not go back out.
I'm sure that could be adjusted ...
Are you sure the gap fillers moved or did they just really couldn't open the doors?
Ignore that.
Both
Whenever I go down there I just take N/R to Whitehall st, which is right across the street from the ferry. I don't want to be bothered with the 1/9 hassle of waiting for people to move to the front. It's quicker with the N/R.
That station I hate. Those narrow platforms SUCK! They should fill in that middle track. To hell with screwing Brooklyn by cutting service before there.
Sorry, I LOVE that stop, the gap fillers AND the shortness. It's also on the 1/9 line, which seems to have the highest ratio of humanely renovated stations and which I really like uptown because of the depth and then the els.
Agreed. The best part though is still the inner loop. I like the platform arrangement and being on the train and having only the center doors open. It wasn't quite the same when it was changed to shuttle only service in the '60s though. Nonetheless, I wish they would have the new IRT cars set up to handle that station and possibly reinstitute service to the inner loop. (We're all entitled to dream, aren't we, especially at this hour in the morning?!?!)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It was changed to shuttle service because only the Low-V's could open the center door only. The replacement trains couldn't so they had to modify some cars for the station so only the center door would open and those cars were the shuttle cars. Although I miss that station I guess from a practical standpoint it didn't make sense to keep the shuttle as the Bowling Green Station and the S.Ferry stations were so close to each other. By the time you crossed over to the shuttle you could have walked to the ferry!!!
Two questions about S.Ferry:On the shuttle (post low-V cars) did only the middle door open at Bowling Green also??
In relation to the present day station bldg on street level, where was the old el terminal? Was it directly overhead??
Yes, only the middle doors opened. As far as the el terminal, I'm not quite old enough to remember that.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
From what I heard, at Bowling Green, those modified R-12s could open all their doors except for the leaves on each car end. At South Ferry, only the center doors opened.
I usually get held at Chambers when I work the 1/9 and that is when I start informing the passengers to "move past the conductors position and into the first 5 cars..." this is repeated at Cortland and Rector streets, needless to say there are always 1 or 2 people that come running through the cars screaming WAIT WAIT.
It's those damn transverse conductor's cabs which mess everything up. In years past you could simply walk through the train if you were in one of the back 5 cars.
Chris: That proves that in many ways things have not gotten better on the subway but worse. It could have saved us a good hour-and-a-half if we could have gone to the front. We couldn't, however, because of the fact that passage between cars was impossible.
Beast Rider: That is great if it' done, but it wasn't done on that particular day----not once. If I was the only one caught in this trap I could have chalked it off to my stupidity, but there at least 30 of us in that car and none of us heard it? No way!
When all is said and done, one wonders why, after all of these years, the station platform at South Ferry has never been lengthened to eliminate the problem. As it stands now, South Ferry is one of only two stations (afaik) on the NYC subway system which is not long enough for the entire train to open (the other being 145 & Lenox).
-- Ed Sachs
[When all is said and done, one wonders why, after all of these years, the station platform at South Ferry has never been lengthened to eliminate the problem. As it stands now, South Ferry is one of only two stations (afaik) on the NYC subway system which is not long enough for the entire train to open (the other being 145 & Lenox)]
If the platform were lengthened enough to accommodate 10-car trains, the curve would be so sharp that most of the cars would be out of the conductor's sight. That's probably too much of a safety hazard to be acceptable in today's climate.
I don't know if a lengthened platform would interfere with the inner platform's loop track, but that a possibility.
Then why not just demolish the old loop and build a more traditional center platform terminal station?
I know, I know, too much $$$ ...
They had enough trouble building the loop station itself. It's so close to the waterfront - literally a few feet - that pumps had to be run around the clock to keep the site from being flooded.
"If the platform were lengthened enough to accommodate 10-car trains, the curve would be so sharp that most of the cars would be out of the conductor's sight. That's probably too much of a safety hazard to be acceptable in today's climate."
Not if you extend the conductor's vision by installing closed-circuit cameras aimed at the "blind" portion of the platform and monitors for those cameras near the conductor's post on the train. CTA did something like this on all its curved stations when it instituted OPTO.
They've already done this at SF. What they REALLY need there is an additional stairway. As for the view from the conductors position, He can't see beyond the first door of the fifth car, as his position is in the 6th car.
-Hank
>As it stands now, South Ferry is one of only two stations (afaik) on the NYC subway system which is not long enough for the entire train to open <
Umm how about the Shuttle Platforms be it 42nd St or Franklin Ave?
But those handle the full trains on those lines.
It's all relative to the size of the train. If you're running a 4 car train, you only need the platforms to be 4 car-lengths. You don't need a 600' platform for a 240' train.
Has anyone on the site ever seen any pictures of the 900 series gate cars? I am looking specifically for car #902 with the picture being taken in the 1945-1950 time period. I believe that the car was scrapped in the early 1950's.
The only pictures of 900 series gate cars I've ever seen are in the book "The Subway" - two of them lying on their sides in Flatbush Avenue after falling off of the 5th Avenue El. I believe these were #913 and #919.
Wayne
Could you possibly tell me more about the book "The Subway"? I don't think that I am familiar with it.
It's Stan Fischler's book The Subway, what I would categorize as a popular (rather than scholarly) history of the NYC subway system. The photo Wayne refers to is on page 117.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thank You! I do have two of his books but I didn't even know about this one.
This one is an updated version (1997) of Uptown, Downtown (1976).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have the 1976 version and the picture on page 117 is of the IRT's City Hall Station. It makes me wonder if all of the pictures were changed in the updated version.
The updated version isn't the same size or shape as the original. The text is similar but there's a lot of rearrangement.
-dave
It almost sounds as if I could buy this book, read it, and wonder why so much of it seemed familar. Brian Cudahy revised his book but kept the same title, and called it a revised edition. I wonder why this author gave his book a new title after revising it.
People will think it is a new book and buy it, only to discover it is the same book as before
Actually, it says right on the cover that it is a revised and expanded edition of the earlier book. And it does contain much additional material. The original one actually went through six editions, all essentially similar but with some minor changes and corrections each time. I'm not sure how much material was dropped in updating to the new volume; I read the original years ago but don't own a copy.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, and it's a nasty mash - one car landed smack on the hood of somebody's nice new Buick and the car behind it is in even worse shape; the roof's collapsed under it. Pages 114 and 115 show a series of MUDC (and one Lo-V) cars in various compromising poses. Malbone Street's represented, on pages 123 and 124, with a detailed article.
The book's available at the Transit Museum and its subsidiary stores.
Wayne
Do you feel that this book is different enough that I should invest in it when I already have the original version? I guess that is really an unfair question to ask someone unless they have both editions of the book.
There's enough additional material to justify it, yes, given that the jacket price is only $29.95 and the street price at shows is around $23-$24. But if you don't have 722 Miles and it's a tossup, buy that one instead.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh Good Grief! What's "722 Miles"? Is that still another new subway book? I guess living out here in the country puts me out of touch on books about the NY subway system.
It's been around a while. You should take a look at the Subway Bibliography. Gotta add the Malbone St. book to it...
You're right, it's there. You know I have visited Bibliography several times, mainly because of Ed's book. I must have seen the listing many months ago, and after reading your description, decided the book did not have to go on my priorty list. I guess over the period of time I since have completely forgotten about it.
That new Cudahy book sounds good. I sure wish I could have gone to that book fair and gotten one of those half price copies.
722 Miles is not everyone's cup of tea. It is selective in its history (e.g., it doesn't deal with the BRT until the Dual Contracts), not extensively illustrated and probably too dry and scholarly in its tone for most people.
OTOH, it is probably the only recent and easily available political history of the system. If you want to get a good concept of (for example) what Mayor Hylan was all about, and the political forces he set in motion we still see today, it is a must read.
I enjoy reading, but do think that a picture is worth maybe not a thousand, but a lot of words. As I posted previously, after reading Dave's description I decided not to hunt down the book.
The book The Brooklyn Elevated by Watson and Greller
has but one picture (that I can find) of a 900 series: 910.
Evolution of New York City Subways by Sansone et al.
has the same picture, plus 937, which really is a distinct
class of car from the 900s: 900-936 were center door (ex-
King County, for BB service) cars with bench seats. Later
the center doors were sealed and seats placed across them.
The 900s are distinguished by their odd clerestory vents and
by marker lights that rested on a squarish base rather than the
usual pipe bracket. They were all scrapped about 1950 and
none was preserved, except instruction car 999 at Branford which
really has no connection to the 900 cars except by number.
I have the book "The Brooklyn Elevated" and love it. I refer to it often. I was hoping that someone might happen to have a picture of the specific car #902 or have seen one someplace in some publication. That car has some great sentimental memories for me. I don't imagine there is much chance of finding a particular car picture almost fifty years after it was scrapped.
Your best bet might be Don Harold.
Would you have any suggestions as to how I might contact him?
I have a theory about how graffiti artists enter the system. There are narrow catwalks in the tunnels on both sides. They enter the tunnels via these catwalks from the station platforms. It is very dangerous, due to the frequency of trains, as well as the high voltage current on the third rail. Also, there is a fair possibility that the fumes from the paint might explode from the sparks created by passing trains. I have noticed graffiti underneath many of the lights that are strung along the tunnel walls. I have even seen large, very bold, and colorful graffiti on the tunnels as well. I wonder if trains have had to stop in the tunnels due to graffiti artists painting, since the catwalks are very narrow, and are close to the tracks.
Yes, I think the colorful graffiti is being done by brazen teens who enter the tunnels either from stations OR through non-secured emergency exits. There was of course more of this during the 70s when it became a fad of "underground artists" to do a one-upmanship, bragging and boasting about their "works" and the lines they ran on. It was a total underground culture that sprung up that was quite popular with most inner-city youth, but hispanic kids seemed to dominate the field.
BTW, the less fancy graffiti that you might see in some tunnels and on equipment in many cases was done by TA employees. This is a fact.
Doug aka BMTman
I see a lot of this, and believe it or not much of it is the work of but a small group of die hards from the 70's!
These guys are in their 40's already and never gave it up. The paint cans litter the road bed in many locations. I'm talking about the wild and complex "art" not the simple scrawlings of teens. Most of it is written late at night when the 20 minute head way predominates.
As for the employee scrawlings: some dude named Thor in track Dept. does a lot of it.
Then again there's always the standard "DON'T PISS HERE!' near signalmen's quarters.
If you look out of the front glass leaving 34 St on the 6th Av Local, you will see four pillars with "Don't piss here!". The fifth one south of the locker room says "Piss here!" I guess they know you are doing it anyway so don't do it near their doors. By the way don't mess with "THOR" unless you would like a Vietnam Soldier to spray paint on you "Piss here!".
What websites offer sound samples of NYC subways, like announcements, passing trains, and train acceleration?
Try the TV & Movie Themes/Sounds Pages
Key in tv & movie rhemes in a search box and see what you can find.
I have the sound of a train going thruogh a turnout/switch points.
It is a clackity-clack sound.
Why, exactly, is there a roll of string in most token booths? I notice it everyday at Canal St. and have started paying attention and noticed it at many other stations as well.
Mike
Curious Mike, I may be wrong, and if i am i do not mind being corrected, but the string might be there for the bags that the tokens and money come in and when they take the money and tokens to the money train.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
9/26/99
Maybe that string is for tying up beligerant riders who pound their fists on the token booth and curse the agents because they missed their train because of swiping their Metrocards 3 dozen times! Was there any duct tape next to the string to keep any Railroad Rage riders quiet !
Bill Newkirk
Don't knock Duck Tape, that is what NASA uses to fix problems, without the Apollo 13 mission would never had made it home.
Just like that, the TA uses it as well on many a car body!!
9/27/99
Hey Lou,when was the last time you used duct tape on a actual air duct?? Gotcha !!
DUCT TAPE RULES !!
Bill Newkirk
Duct tape is like the Force.
It has a light side and a dark side.
And it holds the Universe together.
Today it is NOT used for ducts. It does, however, hold ducks.
Perhaps the string is for the cat to play with when he/she is not chasing mice in the booth.
Here is the real answer:
we have two sizes of bags for money and tokens or coins. Large bags are used for money and "outside bags" (bags you deposit in the sage. Small bags are used for "inside bags" (bags that contain tokens or money and are placed inside large bags. In a grocery store you may buy some celery and place it in a produce department bag which is then sacked with the other groceries in the bag you carry out from the store.
The small bags are tied with the string- we use a different small bag for each item.
The computer in the booth lets us know how much money we have to send to Jay Street--how much money we have to drop (deposit).
Let's say we decide to drop tokens, quarters and pennies. We would have 3 small bags with a tag on each of a specific color- blue for quarters, brown for tokens, pink for pennies, yellow for dimes and a shade of green for nickels. Each small bag is tied and placed inside a large bag.
Bills are strapped in a group of 100 maximum- one strap per denomination. if we have more than 100 bills of a denomination we have more than one bundle--if we deposit 200 twenty dollar bills we would have two bundles of 100 each. The bills are then rubber banded together along with any senior citizen, disabled tickets, block tickets, G.O. Tickets, etc. with a remittance form (deposit slip).
This is placed in the same large bag with our small bags described above. We then seal this bag using a tamper evident seal called a shur-lok (pronounced sure- lock). We further protect our deposit by stamping our pass number on the rivet by using our "punch" which looks like a pair of pliers. The punch embosses our pass number on the rivet. If someone tampers with the bag the seall will break and it will be evident when the bags are removed from the safe. (yes, we watch when the bags are removed and if a bag has a broken seal we watch as it is resealed with a new seal.)
Otuaside bags also have a colored tag: Gray for tokens, salmon for Monday to friday, Pink for Saturday, Green for Sunday, and Goldenrod for "Advance bag" (A bag dropped midway during a shift in some booths on some shifts.) If we have sufficient amounts, coins can also be dropped in a large bag using tags in the colors mentioned above.
I hope this answers your questions. My, what sharp cusomters we have!
I do like your idea of tying up customers but we can not do this! I want to keep my job.
I hope this answers your question.
When you read about the complexity of this you see why the TA, like everyone else, wants to move away from tokens and especially towards vending machines. Even better if the vending machines take ATM / credit cards.
We do not refill the machines. Revenue adds new cards and removes money. I have seen one open at WTC and Cubic was serrvicing the machines with rvenue watching (and the police)
No tokens? While I'd like to see it happen, the Straphanger's campaign and technophobes wont let it happen and also even without them I see problems doing awat with tokens.
With tokens, if all turnstiles are out of order we use a non-revenue farebox (black box chained near the entry gate) or even hand collect fares (they give the token to us-place in a pail or bag with a cop watching). Now farecards--If all turnstiles are out of order how would be collect fares-- cash would not work if they take away our money and we do not have hand scanners.
That is why I think tokens will remain- if only for emergency use.
[No tokens? While I'd like to see it happen, the Straphanger's campaign and technophobes wont let it happen and also even
without them I see problems doing away with tokens]
Reminds me of something I saw at Union Square a week or so ago. A man two places ahead of me in line asked the clerk for ten tokens. A young woman right behind him tried to explain about the extra ride he'd get with a MetroCard. The man said that he knew about the MetroCard deal, but that he didn't trust them, while with tokens there was no such risk - you're guaranteed to get X number of rides. And this wasn't some old-timer who fondly remembered the nickle fare. The man was no more than 25, probably Russian or Eastern European.
Right! that's why I personally believe the token will ALWAYS be here! I have seen high school children ask for tokens instead of using their school metrocard. (If they pay $1.50 I will sell them a token).
I do that because the Feds don't have the guts to force dollar coins down people's throats (as they should! that and the Metric system). The token is the best way to produce $1.50 in change for the express bus for use with my student MC. The student MC is an advantage over the pass because I can use any station, any TA bus (before I needed a Command pass, so I didn't get a TA bus pass) and the express bus. Not to mention the fact that I no longer have to wait in line at the subway station. As for machines, I've noticed that LIRR machine usage vs. ticket agent usage is more common than TA MVM vs. Station Agent.
Perhaps if the dollar coin was properly designed, as Canada has done theirs (and their $2.00 coin as well) we might accept and use them. Until such time, I will avoid them like the plague, as I suspect the vast majority of Americans will.
Part of the blame for this is the similarity in size to the quarter, which unfortunately the new dollar does little to change. Also, like many others, I lament the loss of Lady Liberty from the face of the coin. Replacing her with Eisenhower was unfortunate enough (this is absolutely NOT intended as a slight to Ike - I count it among the great privileges of my lifetime to have spent a day with him touring the Gettysburg battlefield when I was much younger) but putting Susan B. Anthony or Sacajawea (sp.?) on the coin is absurd. Had Lady Liberty returned (or even Ben Franklin, who was bumped from his rightful place on the half dollar some years back) I might be willing to give the coin another chance, but not as it stands now.
True rationalization of our monetary system would eliminate the penny and half dollar coins and the dollar bill, with a reasonable dollar coin and increased circulation of the two dollar bill. But the government's involved, so we all know that will never happen.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I agree that I wish Liberty was back on the coin and that they should be noticeably bigger than the quarter. The current coin CANNOT be differentiated from a quarter when feeling it in your pocket or looking at a distance. The new quarter is gold and will therefore eliminate the latter, but it will only have a smooth edge. Maybe you'll notice it's not a nickel (which also has a smooth edge) but it still sucks. Canada uses an 11 sided polygonal (unodekagonal) coin. Also, if dollar coins become the norm, we need new $2 bills I think.
Also forgot to mention that coins should also get Lady Liberty back because the bills have and have had for a long time (I have a 1917 $2 bill) real people. Coins shouldn't try to look like bills, they should use fictional characters. Maybe we can keep FDR and Kennedy and restore Eisenhower, moving the latter two onto new coins, because the Half-dollar is useless and the Dollar coin should use Lady Liberty.
Lady Liberty almost made a comeback in 1964-65. There was a severe coin shortage back then, and a law was passed freezing the 1964 date on all US coins indefinitely in order to discourage hoarding. That was right about the time I got into coin collecting, and couldn't understand why there weren't any 1965-dated coins to be seen even though it was nearly 1966. Anyway, at the same time LBJ signed the bill freezing the 1964 date, he also ordered 45 million silver dollars to be struck. They would have been essentially Peace Dollars, minted from 1922 to 1935, with 1964 dates. As luck would have it, silver supplies began to dwindle, LBJ rescinded the order for silver dollars, and copper-clad coins were introduced.
As for a new dollar coin, if it can be readily recognized as such, I'm all for it. Any SBA dollars I get now usually wind up in the church collection basket.
[As for machines, I've noticed that LIRR machine usage vs. ticket agent usage is more common than TA MVM vs. Station Agent.]
LIRR ticket machines have been around a lot longer than have the MVMs, so people are more used to them. I've also found that LIRR ticket agents can be as slow as molasses, while TA station agents are generally far more efficient.
There's one advantage of the TA monopoly, they can take out tokens and anger a few people, but those same people will have to continue using the TA's services. I believe that to stop token hoarding for the next fare hike, the TA should discontinue them at that time. For encouraging people to switch, they would stop selling them at an earlier time. As for emergencies, to prevent problems with people not getting transfers, people should just be let on free like the bus.
I noticed what appear to be lights embedded in the platform near the 1 track of the shuttle train. They are arranged in a triangle. Also there appears to be a trap door covered over with concrete right next to the lights. Does anybody know what these things were for?
Mike
If you're referring to the former southbound local track on the original line, that may be where the stairway to the underpass is located. It's been cemented over on that side, but the stairway on the opposite side; i. e., the original northbound local platform, is still visible. The underpass was presumably closed when the station was reconfigured into the shuttle arrangement of today.
I swear, the memory must be the 1rst to go with age because I used to know the answer to this. Does anyone know why all the Diesel and Bi-level engines on the LIRR ring the bell when entering and leaving stations, and why the electric trains don't??
Interesting but outdated websight:
The bi-level homepage
That's an easy question Sarge. And this is a stupid answer: The electrics don't have a bell. Sorry, couldn't resist.
The short answer is that the LIRR continues to follow railroad practices of using the bell to announce the approach and movement of the train. This never applied to the electrics.
A conductor informed that there are two practical considerations:
1) In general, an MU engineer has a better forward view than a locomotive engineer. The bell is a warning of a moving train, rather like the back-up "beep-beep" on some trucks.
2) Since the locomotive is running all the time, the bell provides an extra warning to those nearby that the train is moving, not idling.
Just what I've heard...
An interesting thing I have noticed when the electric (AEM) Amtrak locomotives on the Northeast Corridor pull into a station, I have also a heard a bell ringing.
The ringing stops when the train is stopped at the station and it resumes shortly after the train begins to move.
What about Metro North Commuter?. They share track with AMTRAK
Nope, they don't either, though vaugely recall as a kid the NJ Arrows had bells. Or at least they seemed to when we were in Penn. Ok, granted my dad was yanking me around by the arm into the Port Washington train. (an event in itself - he's the polar opposite of me and despises mass transit)
also tradition going all the way back to steam
I updated my MVM site and it's now in a different format. I used this format because it is now sorted exclusively by date (no more borough). I will soon add the dates and other data thanks to data from SubTalk's own Bill Newkirk. Now, I'm wondering what the best way to do it is, I'm going to return the borough in a new column and the borough will be listed for each station, but I may adopt other measures, here are a few examples of these:
Station NameLinesBorough
Station NameLinesBorough
OR
Station NameLinesBoroughStation NameLines
OR
BoroughStation NameLinesStation NameLines
Borough
OR
No boroughs at all.
In addition, I wonder if I should change the line display. I have a few options. Use regular colored text, uncolored text, or line name (like the ERA bulletin that Bill sent me where I got the data).
Anyway, drop me a line about what you think, but first visit the site at http://www.crosswinds.net/~mvmworld.
P.S. I've started a new subway list at Onelist at http://www.onelist.net/community/NYCSubway, join it if you like.
Forgot to mention that whatever I do with the site, only for the first and last options will the data be sorted exclusively by date, in all the others, it will be sorted by borough, followed by date within the borough.
As for the long awaited Guide to the MVM on my site, I started working on Plan C this morning and I hit a snafu (computer screwed up with the fonts and stuff) and decided to scrap the whole plan. Now, I want to move to Plan D where the tutorial will be written in Java. Now, I need a good Java compiler and a Java tutorial (I know NO Java). I also need to know some good methods of attaining exact measurement graphics (I can do CAD, BTW). I also need to know the dimensions of the MVMs screen displays, a manual would be good for what the MVM displays but not necessary. Anybody have any answers, or suggestions that I scrap plan D because Java is bad or that I scrap the whole project completely?
9/26/99
Are you aware that a couple of new MVM's are at the 77th St/Lincoln Center stop on the (1)? Last I saw them they were in the TEST mode.
Bill Newkirk
They are also installed at Parsons/Archer, but are not in operation yet.
9/26/99
I CORRECT MYSELF.....THAT'S 66th ST / LICOLN CENTER ON THE (1).
Bill Newkirk
In the NY Post Sunday September 26, pages 8 and 9, is a article about the Second Ave subway line comin up "short" says the subway riders. The MTA's subway plan is sparking controversy.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your most excellent thoughts are welcome.
Also on page 9 of this story you can fax the NY Post of any particular horror stories or complaints about your experiences on the East Side subway lines.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
I am a little surprised that neither of the two competing plans for the line make any mention of extending the line into the outer boroughs - the Bronx, Brooklyn, Queens.
I had read a little while ago a certain organization had proposed a number of lines - one of which would run express to Co-Op City in the Bronx. That proposal seems to have gone over like a lead balloon.
At the risk of sounding a little militant, I guess Manhattan is the borough that ever gets any attention when it comes to these issues and the other boroughs are the unwanted stepchildren.
[I guess Manhattan is the borough that ever gets any attention when it comes to these issues and the other boroughs are the unwanted stepchildren. ]
What about the Airtrain? What about the proposed extension of the N to Laguardia as mentioned in the NY Times on Sunday?
I did not read the NY TImes article on Sunday. I had not taken into consideration the AirTrain.
Perhaps I was little hasty to rush into such a generalization.
As for the Second Avenue subway, if it is ever built, I do hope that they consider extending the line in the future. The line should be able to serve other parts of the city. After all, that was in the original plans. And considering that the city has grown substantially since then, we need a longer line more than ever.
I really think that the MTA really does not want to build anything. It seems that they hope the problem will just go away by itself, so they propose a half-baked solution to a major problem that does not address the root cause. And, since it will cause controversy, the debate will go on endlessly and nothing will ever get built. Furthermore, its ten year construction plan for a two-track line is absurd. Especially since they now plan to use the two-track tunnels that already were already built in the 1970's.
The Executive Summary of the 63-125 MESA plan says that other options such as a full length subway will only make a minute decrease in Lexington Avenue Subway ridership. Who did they survey? The people working on Madison and Fifth Avenue.
Going to places like the UN were always torture for me. Either a very long walk from the Lexington Avenue Line or a long wait for the crummy Manhattan Crosstown Bus routes and most of the time it was the walk.
About the 2nd Av subway.
I bought a video at the Transit Museum call "The Vanishing El". It is a documentary made in 1950 about the 3rd Av el while it was still in operation. At one point the narrator stated that the daily ridership wa 270,000. Where did those people go? Did they just vanish into thin air or are they on the Lex or the 1rst, 2nd, 3rd, or Lex Av buses. They discontinued the el with the idea of replacing it with the 2nd Av subway.
They probably moved to the "burbs" remember that was the early 50s at least, or just plain old white flight then
The Upper East side changed dramatically after the el was closed. It was much more working class before the 1950's. Now it's one of the richest per-capita income neighborhoods of any major US city.
9/26/99
Here's my take on the Second Avenue subway...It's purely pessimistic!
First there is a clamor for finishing a line promised for decades.The MTA looks into it. The only way out is to finish the line from 63rd st to 125th St. since it's the shortest distance with some tunnel work to be connected.
The public clamors for a total line so neighborhoods left out of the 63-125 St run are represented. So an idea comes up to build it along with the line north of 63rd St. and another line all the way down Second Ave. and maybe a jaunt over to 1st. Ave. like the "EL" did and terminate in lower Manhattan. This runs into BILLIONS and would take years to complete.
Wait a minute! The folks in the Bronx get perturbed because they're not represented with Second Ave service and a planned line to the Bronx runs into billions more!. Not to be outdone,the people of Brooklyn now want Second Avenue service because they were left out of the whole senario. Now wer're talking MUCHO DINERO and politicians are egging on the voting public.
The MTA looks at the whole mess and says "screw it,we'll build it from 63rd to 125th and tell everybody Washington ain't sending us enough greenbacks to finish it. You see when you look across the river to New Jersey and see the HBLR line concieved,planned,built and ready to open in much less time than the bastion of politcal rubbish New York City spends argueing about it,it makes you wonder why NYC never gets anything done correct,on time and to the public's best interest.
Need anymore proof? We talked about the Second Avenue subway. How about the 42nd St Light Rail line,dead and buried due to politcs. A sensible ONE SEAT RIDE from JFK airport to Midtown Manhattan. Politcs and NIMBYism again. Tough cookies business traveler!,we're gonna dump you off in Jamaica and you have a choice of either the (E) train or the LIRR to midtown. But don't worry,we have an open mind about that one seat ride into midtown in the future. Just when,we don't really know.When you look at other cities airport connections and new Light Rail networks opening up and moving forward,you kinda wonder why the Rotten Apple still lags behind. Gotham City,welcome to the 21st Century!
Pessimistic Bill Newkirk
It gets nastier and nastier to construct under 2 Ave the further
south you go because of soil conditions. I say forget the whole
thing. A 2 track line isn't worth squat, and a line that terminates
at the 63 St line and funnels down an existing Manhattan trunk,
that's not only not worth it, it would actually make things worse.
There are 2 solutions for transit along 2 Ave, and no one will
like them: A) build a median-running light rail line with traffic
signal override (look at LA) B) using modern, unobstrusive
prestressed concrete construction, build an elevated RT line.
a LRT like LA and other cities would be a good idea for 2nd Ave
First/Second Avenue is the main bus/truck route to the Manhattan Central Business district from points north and northeast. If you take away that traffic capacity, where are they going to go? Trolleys are a loser in Manhattan. Cities with real light rail systems have them in tunnels Downtown.
Not all of them. San Diego, Sacramento, Even LA s Blue Line is only subway for 1/2 mile
Sacramento isn't a very big, important city.
Tell that to the people of California. Remember it is the largest state in the Union, with New York Sinking to 3rd in the next 10-15 years
Many LRT systems aren't underground in the central business districts, as has been noted. The older systems in Boston and Philadelphia are, as is St. Louis. San Francisco is an interesting case, with so many people preferring to be back on the surface instead of riding the fairly new Muni Metro. And Toronto still has jammed streetcars in the middle of two-way downtown streets. I don't think the choice of surface, underground, elevated, or reserved right-of-way follows any particular pattern--cities choose what they want to pay or what political or other pressure forces on them.
On the business of State populations, New York is already third, behind California and Texas. It will probably drop behind Florida by 2005 and perhaps behind Arizona after that. But we shouldn't forget that in area, California is over four times as large as New York (New York is one of the smaller states, only thirtieth out of the fifty) and Texas is even larger than California in area, second out of the fifty.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Actually, it's already #3. And that's not just because Texas rose in population (even though it did).
None of those cities have densities that come close to Manhattan - especially the Upper East Side.
I'm not totally against trollies/Light Rail in Manhattan. Unlike many people on this site, I think there are places where they would complement the subway. However, 2nd ave is certainly not one ofthem.
With all the construction on the West Side Highway - now would be a great time to lay tracks for light rail. It's one of the few streets that has enough land to handle loosing two lanes. It would provide a link between the Javits Center, the Finanacial District, and all the neighborhoods in between that are really far from the subway (Hell's Kitchen, West Chelsea).
The proposed line from 63rd St. up would make things better. It's not the ideal solution, but it would ease the overcrowding somewhat.
[ It gets nastier and nastier to construct under 2 Ave the further
south you go because of soil conditions. ]
I'm not a civil engineer (as you know), but can't you just go further down, underneath all the manhattan mess, and tunnel there? Yes, you would have plenty of rock-cutting to do in midtown and downtown, but hasn't TBM technology improved any in the last 50 years?
I dunno, but to me that seems like the only way that communities would let it go anyways.. Cut and cover just won't fly -- I certainly wouldn't want 2 years of open street in front of my house or business, not to mention the disruption as existing understreet facilities are moved..
Yes, I agree a deep tunnel (deeper than say, 100 feet), might be the answer if the soil won't cooperate. They built the Chunnel using the TBM, certainly they could employ something like that for this. The escalator and elevator links would be phenomenal in a subway like that.
Wayne
The London Tube was (and still is) constructed using TBM methods. Other than on the Circle & District Lines, most all stations have escalators - some of them *really* deep and complex!!
It can be done. The Brits proved it!
(Heck, even the Moscow subway is deep tube, with the major stations having marble floors!)
Yeah, with all the slave labor to do the quarrying they didn't have to worry about the cost.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
More like hard labor camps. I wonder if they ever found any granite in Siberia.
I seem to recall reading (on a website about the construction of the Moscow subway) that the stone was quarried somewhere in Russia - where, exactly, I don't recall.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It's not that New York can't do deep bore -- the deepest station in the system in on the Contract 1 line built in 1904 -- it's just that the decided for moving large numbers of people in and out of stations shallower tunnels, using the cut-and-cover method would work better.
Also, when most of the NYC system was built, very long escalators were not feasible, the way the are on the DC Metro today. Connection to the surface would either be by elevator (limited passenger capacity) or by stairs (OK if the station happens to be next to a coronary care unit, I guess).
One problem with a deep bore tunnel would be it would have to come up close to the surface at points in order to connect with exsisting lines. The 63rd St. connection is pretty deep already, so that wouldn't be a major hurdle, but if it's extended downtown, there would probably be cut-and-cover around Houston St.-Second Ave and down Chrystie St., if the line were to link-up with the B/D/Q, the F or the J/M/Z lines.
They would have to have a elevator because of the ADA (Disabilities Act)
DC does have elevators in all its Metro Stations, but most of the deepest ones have very, very long escalators, which would not have been feasible back in the teens, 20s and 30s when the bulk of New York's system was built. Any deep-bore Second Ave. line would have elevators, but they would probably be fairly small capacity ones, with escalators handing the bulk of the passenger load.
The Second Ave station styles will be very much like DC. In DC each subway station is a big deal. In NY most stations are virtually non-descript but on the new Second Ave line there will only be 4 stations between 125 and 63 streets so each station will be a big deal with parking and everything.
I think, no, I'm SURE they won't have parking. D.C. doesn't have parking in the inner stations.
also try to find a parking spot on the Orange Line after Arlington in Virginia anyway kif you get there after 9.00am
Same thing with Denver's light rail. The Park'n'Ride lots by the stations are packed to capacity by mid-morning. This is even after numerous parking spaces were added after the line opened.
[Same thing with Denver's light rail. The Park'n'Ride lots by the stations are packed to capacity by mid-morning. This is even
after numerous parking spaces were added after the line opened.]
There is an absolutely vast amount of parking at the LIRR's Ronkonkoma station - a multilevel garage, a main parking field that looks like something you'd see at a mega-sized shopping mall, several auxiliary lots. And it's all filled soon after 7 am.
9/29/99
Josh,did I just read you right. You said the stations on the New Second Avenue subway will have parking? You mean parking lots ot garages? Please clarify this since parking is non existant in this area as well as most of Manhattan.
Bill Newkirk
All new stations would have to be equipped with elevators to meet ADA requirements, whether it's cut-n-cover or deep bored tunnel construction.
I'm not a civil engineer either, but I know one and so do you :)
Maybe you can get a clarification. I seem to recall that boring
for the 2 Ave route would be very difficult because of the loose
sandy soil which is present. Of course it *can* be done, but
the cost differential over trenching would be astronomical.
The rock line is very far below the surface on the lower east
side and I'm not sure how far down you have to go to find stable
soil.
I expect they'll go by the 1968 plan which is posted on this site: boring where rock is near the surface, cut and cover where the bedrock falls away. Most of the route is bedrock, but East Harlem and some other areas are not.
There are 2 solutions for transit along 2 Ave, and no one will like them: A) build a median-running light rail line with traffic signal override (look at LA) B) using modern, unobstrusive prestressed concrete construction, build an elevated RT line.
There are better ways to construct a modern el than to use a massive concrete trackbed.
Consider Aerobus and Aerorail.
Light rail is an abomination against real rapid transport. Even with protected lanes, it wouldn't last five minutes in New York traffic.
Just what we need. A new technology totally incompatible with the other 200+ miles of the system.
Well, it'll keep AirTrain company :)
--Mark
Just what we need. A new technology totally incompatible with the other 200+ miles of the system.
You can say the same thing about light rail, FWIW.
<< Just what we need. A new technology totally incompatible with the other 200+ miles of the system.
<< You can say the same thing about light rail, FWIW. >>
Not necessarily. Though current subway equipment probably could not operate on the surface r-o-w of a light rail line, light rail equipment of appropriate design could operate into the subway system.
About the 2nd Av subway.
I bought a video at the Transit Museum call "The
Vanishing El". It is a documentary made in 1950
about the 3rd Av el while it was still in operation.
At one point the narrator stated that the daily
ridership was 270,000. Where did those people go?
Did they just vanish into thin air or are they on
the Lex or the 1rst, 2nd, 3rd, or Lex Av buses. They
discontinued the el with the idea of replacing it
with the 2nd Av subway.
Mentioning the U.N., has anyone ever thought of building a First Av Station on the "7" or even extending the shuttle there? Between the UN and Tudor City it should be very popular.
If they don't really want a 2nd Av subway in midtown the least they could do is have the crosstown lines such as the "7", "E"&"F", and the "R" make stops east of Lexington Av so there is East side access to the subway. Except all the way downtown as on 14th or Houston St there are no subway stops east of Lexington.
There was some discussion about this two or three months back. I'll try to summarize what I read (I don't know enough about the subject to have been a contributor to the discussion). Apparently the 7 is already on a significant downgrade/upgrade to the river tunnel at that point so building a station would pose a problem from a starting/stopping perspective. Additionally, given the type of buildings above the station location, it would be difficult to open up that much additional space, and removing the buildings is not a reasonable option. Extending the shuttle would pose many of the same issues, plus it would have to change grade significantly to cross the Lex.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The MTA has some stations on a relatively steep grade already -- check out the south end of Rector St. on the N/R compaired to the north end -- it's about a one level difference.
Also a UN station on the 7 could place an entrance right under the Tudor City overpass on 42nd St. (no buildings to relocate), along with entrances at 42nd and Second Ave.
The article also appears in the Post Onlne at:
http://www.nypostonline.com/news/2288.htm
From an operational standpoint, hooking up the Second Ave. subway with the Broadway BMT at 63 St. and sending it downtown from 57/7 is the worst thing that can be done. Better off not even building it! Impractical to terminate at Whitehall since it is a long slow ride due to grade timers and curves past Canal St., plus a single track pocket at Whitehall St. which a train operator has to crawl to the 10 car marker due to the downgrade, derailer and collision course set up when any train terminates in that middle track. Send it to Brooklyn? Even worse as DeKalb can't handle what's there already! In additon, the MTA plans to bring LIRR trains into the lower level of GCT. That should happen by the time when us middle aged SubTalkers are on Social Security! How can the Lex. possibly handle the additional ridership? The line must go to at least midtown Manhattan, worst case senario having it terminate at Second Ave/Houston St. F line middle tracks. You must have a station at 42 St. with some kind of people mover to get passengers to GCT.
The Manhattan East Side Access study recommended, as part of the 63-125 Second Avenue Subway, something called the "Canal Flip." It involves hooking the Manhattan Bridge "H" tracks to the Broadway Local and the tracks coming through the Montague Street Tunnel (and continuing through lower Manhattan) to the Broadway Express. This would enable Second Avenue trains to run express via Broadway and still serve lower Manhattan. The trains would continue into Brooklyn; probably the Whitehall Street short-turn pattern would remain similar to the way it is now. This assumes, of course, that the Manhattan Bridge will be fully available (a big assumption that I hope doesn't launch another series of postings, as we've been over this ad nauseum). With all this in play, DeKalb Avenue would have the capacity to handle additional service, as the bypass tracks aren't being fully utilized and the Manhattan Bridge "H" tracks aren't being used at all right now. In short (barring changes in routing at the Queens/Manhattan end), whatever runs from Broadway through the tunnel now (N/R) would be replaced by Second Avenue trains, and whatever runs from Broadway via the bridge now (nothing) would be replaced by N/R trains. N trains are supposed to run via bridge irrespective of what happens on Second Avenue anyway, remember.
How does this affect Brighton service? Unknown, and it's W-A-Y too early to even waste brain cells speculating at this time.
David
Yes, the MESA study does propose a "Canal Street flip" that reverses the Broadway express and local tracks. It is not absolutely necessary for the the plan, but it does allow a one-seat ride from upper Second Avenue to Lower Manhattan. The MESA study presents a tentative service plan as follows:
R train: Runs from Bay Ridge through the Montague Street tunnel as it does now. After Canal Street, uses Broadway express tracks and 63rd Street line. Serves upper Second Avenue and terminates at new deep-level station at 125th and Lexington. Some short-turn trains could run north out of Whitehall St. or lower level of City Hall station. Could be extended to the Bronx (possibly but converting Pelham line to B division standards) but that is deferred for now.
N train: Runs Sea Beach service as usual, crosses Manhattan Bridge, operates as Broadway local, then to Astoria as usual.
T train: New service from Bay Parkway (West End), Manhattan Bridge, Broadway local, 60th Street tunnel, to 71st-Forest Hills to replace R service.
Of course that means N train riders would lose Broadway express service (I guess they are supposed to have it again in 2001). And of course, it assumes a healthy Manhattan Bridge.
I'm assuming that they plan to return express service to the Bway line, and it would be this train that would serve the 2nd Ave. spur. If the bridge can't handle trains by the time it's built, then it could run express and terminate at Canal St. Even this limited plan would help greatly.
They idea would be that this new line would draw more passengers away from the Lexington Ave. line than the LIRR connection would add. Many thousands of passengers could get to areas such as Times Sq and Herald Sq without ever stepping on any East side IRT line.
[In additon, the MTA plans to bring LIRR trains into the lower level of GCT. That should happen by the time when us middle aged SubTalkers are on Social Security!]
Pushing up daisies, more likely.
I think they built the transcontinental railroad in a shorter time than the LIRR has scheduled for their one mile of new right of way "long march" to Grand Central. I wouldn't worry about overcrowding on the Lex. No one riding it today will be alive when and if the LIRR ever finishes. By the way "Yahoo" has a chat room and discussion group for the LIRR. Since I am not a member I cannot contribute. However,anyone can read the messages and I find the comments about the things that happen commuting on the LIRR hilarious and kind of sad at the same time.
Problem-lack of capacity east of B'way, service east of Lex. "Solution reroute some trains to B'way??? This is lunacy. Service on B'way does nothing for anyone below 53rd. Anyone who has ever ridden the M15 bus knows the score. These MTA planners should be forced to ride that bus for a year. Maybe then they could see more clearly.
I kind of get the feeling that either some of the people involved with the MTA's proposal either live, or have friends who live, somewhere between 63rd and 90th street on the upper east side, which might explain why they're so gung-ho on the project.
I remember about 25 years ago there was a group of people who wanted the MTA to reroute some of the M-15 buses across town around 42nd St., so people on the lower west side could have access to the upper east side. That move died in a rare attack of 1970s common sense -- this sounds like it's direct (and equally dumb) descendant.
The proposed line does have benefits for those who ride the Lex below 63rd. St. It would take thousands of riders who would normally be crowding the Lexington Ave. line all the way downtown off the line, easing the situation somewhat. No more transfering at Grand Central to the 7/S to get to the West side ...
The argument is political.
The MTA believes that by building something successfully, and having people experience the benefits, they will be in a position to get even more money for the rest.
The RPA believes that only by having a plan that offers something for everyone will you get money to do anything.
I agree with the RPA. The MTA isn't planning to build the upper part of the 2nd Avenue, just give more money to consultants to engineer it -- rather than issuing a design-build contract for, presumably, half the price. Forget it.
If the subway were to be connected to the Broadway line, wouldn't it be smart to renovate the City Hall lower level, as that station could serve terminating trains downtown, if repaired?
Why waste money doing that when you can terminate the train at Whitehall St.?
Besides, the line would be run on the Broadway Express tracks, and it would probably run over the Manhattan Bridge or terminate somewhere north of City Hall anyway. It makes no sense in trying to get East Side riders to use the Broadway BMT to get into Lower Manhattan when the Lexington Ave. line is much faster. Switching the line over to the local tracks would limit capacity severely.
Something must be built. A 125th to 63rd. St.-only line isn't the best idea, but it's a start.
What people don't seem to realize is that ENTIRE east side is badly neglected. There are several huge hospital complexes on 1st and York Avenues that would be served by, as it stands now, a 2nd Avenue line that would run from Harlem to the WEST side. This would offer little or no convenience for people from the outer boroughs, which a line running the entire length of 2nd Avenue would.
The Turtle Bay, Murray Hill, Kips' Bay and Gramercy Park neighborhoods, not to mention Bellevue, would be completely left out in the cold by this plan. To add insult to injury, the '4/5/6' runs along Park Avenue below Grand Central, which makes the easterly walk a block longer than uptown.
If you don't think there's a demand for a COMPLETE 2nd Avenue subway, try to get on an M15 sometime.
I look at it from a Brooklyn/Queens/Bronx Point of view.
If you are in Brooklyn or the Bronx, and you want to go to East Midtown, you either transfer to the Lex or go west and then east, ten minutes or so out of your way. For example, the F goes all the way across Houston, then back across 53rd. If you don't need to breath, the fastest trip from Brooklyn is F to A to 4/5 to GCT.
If you are in Queens, you need to go all the way west before heading Downtown.
If they built the full 63rd St interchange, and connected a spur to the Rutgers (with a spur to DeKalb on the other side), Queens line, DeKalb, and Jay St riders could go directly up the East Side without taking the Lex. It would draw everyone east of Park.
F-A-4/5 2 changes and a walk. How about Fto 42nd then 7 to GCT or and B-D-M-N-Q-R to Atlantic/Pacific then 4-5
The walk from the F to the 5th Avenue #7 stop is so long that throwing in the wait for the train, you might as well keep walking. Plus, much of the office development is north of 42nd, not south.
Some alternatives I've thought of: shuttle stops over 6th Avenue and further east, and an underground pedway a-la-Montreal across 48th Street, from Rock Center, over the B/D/Q/F stop, across Grand Central to points east. At least you wouldn't have to wait for the lights while walking, saving a few minutes.
Looking for 75th anniversary token with dimond cut and subway car.Also looking for "Bullseye" token with Archer ave Extension 12-88)
and "Bullseye" without "SJD" on it.
thanx your subway fan in Omaha NE
Have you tried eBay? The DJ is always going up for sale. The Archer not to often.
Try keywords (in eBay) Subway or token, or Transit
New Jersey Transit may have forgotten about traffic on NJ roadways.Midtown Direct trains are very crowded during rush hours so why hasn't NJT built a El type system over the most clogged roads.And lets not forget about Flemington site of the biggest model RR in NJ.NJT is going to have to build it sometime why not now
SOURCE: Official AFC Bulletin dated 09/22/1999
Will go on sale 10/04/1999 at 7am
Continental Airlines (yes, again!)
Stations (Grouped to save space)
42---1/2/3/79/9.N,R,S,A,C,E
51/Lex--6,E,F
59--1/9,A,B,C,D
South Ferry--1/9
23--1/9
Cortlandt--1/9
Bowling Green--4/5
Wall Street---2/3
Union Square--4/5/6/L/N/R
28---N/R/1/9
Christopher--1/9
50--1/9
14--A/C/E
34--A/C/E
33-6
From an NJT poster in NY Penn
first section will open 3/2000 with stops at East 34th, East 45th-both in bayonne and these stops in Jersey City:
Garfield Ave, Martin Luther King Drive, West Side Avenue, Dangorth Ave, Richard Street, Liberty State Park, Jersey Ave, Essex Street and Exchange Place (PATH). First section will run from East 34th to Exchange Place and from Exchange Place to West Side.
cars are 90 feet long (articulated) with four double doors each side. They have 68 seatsd, two wheelchair spaces and room for 122 standees.
(Once open, a station by station is planned)
My friend from Yonkers is getting us tickets to a special trip on the Hudson-Bergen line. Dave Pirmann is going to meet us once I get the details from my friend this Thursday (9/29/99). Do you have any ideas about what we can see on this unopened line? The trip is on
Saturday 10/02/99.
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
A boyfriend of a relative is a subcontractor on the line. He said the construction crushed three out of four sewer outfalls serving Jersey City (they were brick, 135 years old, and just gave out), and they are working 24/7 to rebuild them. So if you smell something, that's it.
Nah, the stench would be from the way the Mets have been playing during the past week. It's enough to make you gag.
Riding down the NJTP this morning (on the bus...yuck!) actually noticed that they are building the roadbed for the last section next to the Turnpike in Secaucus.....wont that be some sight some morning...whizzing past stuck traffic on the turnpike.....??
> Riding down the NJTP this morning (on the bus...yuck!) actually
> noticed that they are building the roadbed for the last section next
> to the Turnpike in Secaucus
You probably saw the NJ Transit project known as Secaucus Transfer-- an interchange station between the ex-Erie Bergen County lines and the Northeast Corridor. I don't think any of the light rail construction has begun north of Hoboken.
-Dave
It can't be any part of the Transfer,I pass under that coming down on NJT...This is right next to the off ramp for the Lincoln Tunnel exit coming from the southbound main section of the turnpike. It certainly SEEMS like what the roadbed would be like, as it was definitely too narrow for any kind of vehicular road, and it seems to lead from just about where the route would come out of the North Bergen Park/Ride lot heading for the Vince Lombardi service area...Is there any kind of web site documenting the route??
See the current issue of Railpace for a comprehensive description with MAP
I'm up for a "Field Trip" in March, so keep us posted. I'll even hold your camera so you take notes :-)
Mr t
Just found this today, it came up in a search for
elevated railway
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/4462/irt_el.html
Very nice pictures ...
Great shots of the Chatam Square station, with the flying junction and ramp down (to Park Row?). As much as the upper east side has changed since the els left, that area is almost unrecognizable, except for the Municipal Building in the background of a couple of shots...
A lot of those pictures are also on this site, for your viewing pleasure, at
http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/old-els
Anyone want to write a little history of the various abandoned el's, like the line by line guides we have on the site? Just curious :-)
-Dave
I do not think that there are too many people alive that remember the pre WWII El & transit scene. All we can go by is maps and the pix that surface or that have been published in various books on the subject. That would be a job in itself, (cataloging) copiling a list of El pix by line in the borroughs. For the most part, the (subway) lines with elevated structures are the same now as they were when they were built, excepting a few cosmetic changes to some stations, and of course the operating equipment.
In some earlier (older) posts we talked about the covered and uncovered third rails, and the absence of outside catwalks on the BMT elevateds. Where possible, information like this and the removal of junctions with the long gone Els or branches is essential information for the line by line descriptions.
I am sure that there are some films, now videos of the IRT 3rd Ave El, possibly, the entire line. I have no idea of what may be available of the other Manhattan lines. I am sure that some pieces of each line are buried somewhere. You would think, that as a training aid, the IRT and BMT would have filmed an entire line, or if for no other reason, just to have a record of it.
I know, that every time an engineering change is made to a facility, all kinds of documemtation is generated to show and explain what was changed or modified.
Sounds like fun! I'd consider tackling it after my first revision of the IND history is completed, but I want to refresh the stuff I wrote on the Southern Division BMT lines after that (new info from fellow subtalkers, e-mail and more recent books). I couldn't supply any pictures but I could certainly supply the text, based off what I've read and maps that I have seen.
Wouldn't occur for quite a while though.
--Mark
I can supply pictures for the Bronx 3rd Ave El section...I was
too young to really be able to write any text tho :-(
Bill
I wasn't alive to see the 3rd Ave El in Manhattan, and I was too young to ride it in the Bronx, but, with the collection of pictures here and some track maps and some books to run through, a decent "station by station" guide could likely be created.
Thanks for the offer of the pictures. I guess when I get around to this, I'll let everyone know.
--Mark
I found this one on the top of the list after a search on
electric railway
http://vetc.vsc.edu/vuhs/erails/str.htm
ELECTRIC RAILROADS of VERMONT
Almost all the NYC subway lines pretty much follow the city street layout, unless they're going through and open cut (Brighton, Sea Beach) or turning a corner (IND at 53rd St.)
The only two exceptions I could think of are the BMT N/R line between the Whitehall and Rector Street stations, which seems to run right under No. 1 Broadway in switching from Church Street and Whitehall St., and the 4/5/6 at Grand Central, which stops right under the Grand Hyatt while going from Park Ave. to Lex.
Can anyone else think of a subway line that bisects a building(s) as part of its route?
I don't know for sure, but it seems unlikely that the L runs solely under streets when it makes some of those tight turns in Brooklyn.
Doesn't the connection from the 42nd st shuttle to the west side mainline run right under the old Times Tower/Allied Chemical building? I seem to remember reading somewhere about how the Times building and the subway were being built at the same time, and how the turn onto Broadway went right under the building...
Lou - you're right - stand on the platform next to shuttle track #4 (the old uptown local track) and you will be close to the Times/Allied Bldg. If you stand on the "bridge" at the west end of the platform you are probably right below the Times/Allied bldg.
Believe it or not, it mostly does. Let's start at Bedford Avenue.
North 7th Street, then left onto Metropolitan. (Lorimer, Graham)
Right turn down Bushwick Avenue (Grand, Montrose), then a sharp left into McKibbin Place, and a quick right-left (10 degrees each) into Harrison Place (Morgan). It then turns right again, cutting across Flushing Avenue and then down Wyckoff (Jefferson, DeKalb, Myrtle, Halsey). Then it breaks from the streets and sort of has its own ROW, alongside the former NY Connecting RR, which puts it east of Moffat Street with the southbound tracks coming above ground (Wilson). Then it turns 45-degrees left (upper level dives underground), cuts on a diagonal under some side streets (Bushwick-Aberdeen) and then comes leaping out of the tunnel near Bushwick Avenue and Vanderveer Street.
Wayne
The Bushwick Av Station MUST run under some buildings.(Not including the station bldg) If you look at it from the street the buildings on either side of the station bldg are just too close to it. Also it seems to come over there from Bway Junction on an angle.
One building I am sure that the "L" runs beneath at Bushwick-Aberdeen is its own station house! :o) Anyhow, I believe it tunnels beneath some row-houses along DeSales Place and Aberdeen Street.
Further south in Brooklyn, I believe the "F" tracks go under some buildings on the south side of 9th Street just after they go underground at 4th Avenue, and before they re-align themselves with 9th Street proper.
The "A" and "C" line's High Street station sits directly below the Red Cross Building off of Adams Street. And doesn't the "N" and "R" line go directly beneath Brooklyn's Borough Hall?
Wayne
Borough Hall would count as one of the lines under buildings I was thinking of. I don't know about Fourth Ave. and Ninth on the F -- was the building there before the line was built in the 1930s, or was the line put in and then the building built over it, which seems a lot easier to manage, since they've built housing over the Concourse and Livonia yards along with one I remembers this morning -- the World Trade Center over the 1/9 and PATH trains.
that's cheating - "buildings above subways" isnt exactly the same thing as "subways under buildings".
Wasn't the Times/Allied Chemical tower built at the same time as the Contact 1 route under Times Square? Would this make it not count, as the subway didn't tunnel under an existing building?
In Chicago, the Blue line goes under the old Post Office building, which spans Congress St (the Eisenhower Expway) just west of the Chicago river. When the building was built in the 1930s, provision was made for an arterial street (proposed "Congress Parkway") through it at second floor level -- these lanes are now used by the Expressway built in the 1950s (and, I'm sure, that's why the lanes are rather narrow). However, there wasn't really provsion made at the time for the subway to tunnel underneath. This was also built in the 1950s, and I understand that some of the building pilings needed to be cut and re-assembled during the tunneling process.
-- Ed Sachs
The "A" train moves from Boadway to Ft. Washington Ave. between 168th and 175th St. stations, then back again between 190th St./Overlook Terr. and Dyckman St. stations. Neither switch follows a street. I'm not sure what buildings it passes under, I expect some apartment building(s) in the fist case, and Ft. Tryon Park (no buildings at all) in the latter.
Grand Central on the Lexington (4,5,6) runs diagonally under the Grand Central Terminal building. Also 5th Ave. on the Flushing line (#7) is located south of 42nd St. I don't believe it is actually under the library building itself, but certainly under the lawn area on the north side of the building.
-- Ed Sachs
Under the lawn area is the Library, extra storage for its vast holdings. There is a name for it that slips my mind. The 7 runs to the side of the lawn.
That'd be 'The Stacks'
-Hank
Where the 'G/R' makes the turn from Steinway Street onto Broadway, I believe it goes under the Steinway branch of the library at Broadway and 41st. If you're in the basement, you not only hear the train, but the paperback racks shake. The extreme Jamaica-bound entrance to Steinway Street station is actually midblock on Steinway between Broadway and 34th Avenue, and the curve begins immediately after that. It's fairly sweeping and doesn't follow the contour of the streets precisely, unlike the Crescent Street curves.
That long jug handle the 'R' takes from the 11th Street junction to the Plaza appears to go under some warehouses; it's difficult to trace its' exact route.
Where the 'F' ducks back into the tunnel after 4th Avenue, it appears to go under an apartment building before realigning along 9th Street.
The F used to go under a building that was behind the YORK ST. entrance that was torn down. Does that long walk to the F at York count??
In Philly, Both subway lines - the Broad Street and the Market-Frankford - pass right under massive City Hall. Both lines run almost completely straight and true in center city, to match the streets above. However, the only curve in the Broad Steet line (other than the north terminal) is where it curves around the foundation of the City Hall clock tower - the largest free-standing stone structure in North America.
For a while I wondered why that curve was there - why the BSS didn't run straight under City Hall like the MFL, but then looking at one of the pedestrian maps, I realized what it was curving around.
The Boston Subway system cuts under a few buildings at various locations. Station headhouses and MBTA garages not included unless part of another building.
Red Line -
Just north of Ashmont Station passes under Elderly Apartments.
Just south of Quincy Center Station passes under office building.
Just south of Charles-MGH station enters tunnel through basement of apartment building. Then passes deep under several buildings, possibly including the State House, enroute to Park.
Also passes under residential neighborhood between Porter and Davis.
Orange Line - Present
Proceeds diagonally from Washington St. to Tremont St between Kneeland and Oak Sts. under buildings of New England Medical Center, then under apartments before passing under and rising alongside the Mass Pike.
Orange Line - Past
Passed under various buildings east of Washington St between Kneeland and Oak Sts. Buildings later razed and replaced with present New England Medical Center buildings. Abandoned section of subway remains in place but portal near Oak St. now built over.
Orange and Green Lines - Past
Former Haymarket Relief Station stood over subway between Haymarket Station and portal. Site now vacant with construction of new Green Line subway in progress. (Trivia Item - Switch from outside (Lechmere) to inside (Canal) tracks north of Haymarker was known as the "Hospital Switch" because it was located under this building.)
Orange and Green Lines - Present
Government Center Garage stands over six track section including former Haymarket Station and present Green Line mezzanine.
Orange Line - Past
Realignment of streets in 1960s relocated Congress St. over section of Orange Line subway north of former Adams Sq. Previously had been located between Washington St. and Union St. due to 3 track Green Line subway under the former north of that point and 4 track Green Line subway under the former north of Hanover. Includes present Haymarket (former Union/Friend) Station.
Orange Line - Present
Part of former Adams (Green Line) Station is incorporated into basement of present City Hall. The Orange Line Tunnel passes under the east edge of this former station at the former location of Cornhill St. and may partly pass under City Hall. Grade changes in the area have put the former green line tunnel at or near the surface at this point.
Blue Line - Present
The granddaddy of them all: The Blue Line subway passes directly below the Old State House at State (Devonshire) Station. The lobby is in the eastern half of the basement (above grade) and the tracks and platforms are one flight down. The tracks curve toward Court St. under the western half of the basement. Could this have been built in 1999? Not Likely!
May pass under Long Wharf Marriot Hotel east of Aquarium Station
Passes under residential neighborhood between Maverick and Airport Stations.
They're slightly different kinds of buildings, but doesn't the BMT Broadway line curve under St. Paul's Chapel cemetery between Cortland and City Hall? Were bodies moved when the subway was built?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I rember hearing that a west line actually goes through the New York Times bldg. Above some basement press rooms.
That's probably the old Times Tower (now One Times Sq., where they drop the ball); the original IRT line was built at the same time, so it's certainly possible that it passes through the basement.
Similarly, the Municipal Building (1914) is on top of Chambers St. BMT (1913). The IND's various off-street incursions largely remain barren eyesores--sch as the parking lots at Chrystie and Houston, or Hoyt-Schermerhorn--but the AIA Guide does note a 1957 medical building over the Queens line as it passes from Broadway to Queens Boulevard.
I also wonder if the Canal St.-Division St. segment of the Second Avene subway isn't in the basement of the Confucius Plaza apartment complex.
If the LIRR counts, how about that big building it goes under by the Kew Gardens Station.
There is also a building built over the Metro North Hudson tracks,
just past the Marble Hill station
Bill
Got to run down to the Book Fair today and got to meet Brian Cudahy! Bought my copy of THE MALBONE ST.WRECK (1/2 price too!) got it signed (one of my copies of UTSONY also!)and generally got to talk to him for a few minutes..Yes, he has heard of our little web site (good things too!) and actually gave me his card with his email address also.( I wont put it here unless of course everyone else has received it, at least not until I get permission to at least...) A very, VERY nice guy! But as if was there ever any doubt about it! Now..about the book...FANTASTIC!! Should answer just about any question about Malbone St thats ever been posted here. Cudahy has done an incredible job considering how long ago the accident happened, how much covering up there was, and how much innuendo has been spread in the past almost 81 years about this disaster. I hope Stan Fishler reads this work and hangs his head a little...(especially considering how many of his books borrow heavily from Cudahy..) As essential as Under the Sidewalks was...
Half price at a book signing! Do you get a special discount or was that the price to everybody?
Special book fair price....
I stopped by the booth around 12:30 and Mr. Cudahy wasn't there at the time. I picked up the book but didn't wait around for him.
(I also couldn't find the brochures for the web site.. :( )
I was going to ask him if he had plans to reissue Rails Under the Mighty Hudson or if maybe a web edition could be produced. Lou, if you could pass the question/idea on to him I'd appreciate it.
-Dave
So it was you I just missed meeting yesterday (Sunday). I got my book signed and mentioned the web site, and Mr Cudahy told me, yes, he heard of it, and "some guy Lou from Somewhere" left and mentioned it too. Well, now I know which one it was! Also got the book on the history of NYC streets, also for $10. Great deal!!
Mr Cudahy was much older than I expected, which means the picture of him in some of his books must be, well, older than I thought :) Very nice man.
--Mark
I was wondering if anybody had any information regarding remaining interlocking towers in the NYC subway system or any subway system for that matter. Any lineside sturcture that directly controls local switches and signals will fit my definiton.
In 1991 when I visited New York the Brighton line looked really run down, and the entrance to the Prospect Park station (after sadly seeing what had become of my beloved Ebbets Field) was a motley looking thing that was set on a small empty lot. When I went back this summer I was amazed at the change on the whole line. The entrance at Prospect Park was smartly laid out and it looked like a classy entrance to a theatre. Wow! In fact, the whole line looked improved. The stations had been cleaned up and I saw little in the way of peeling paint and the seedy, sad, and drab display I had seen eight years later. My pleasure in seeing that was quickly tempered three hours later on my return from Coney Island on my Sea Beach. There was peeling paint and a run down look at many of the stations.
Is there any plan on the part of the TA to undertake a renovation of these stations so that next time I come to New York and ride my favorite train my personality will not be a mixture of joy and anger?
I have put in a suggestion to the MTA, that they purchase from me special virtual reality glasses and issue them to everyone who is unhappy with things as they are. If you put them on, you get to see things in whatever way you want. So for me, the R62's will appear to be R9's or Triplexes, and the stations will all be lit with incandescent bulbs. For you Fred, the Sea Beach will also appear to have Triplexes and the stations will be spiffy. I have been developing in my lab such a virtual reality glass which will cost pennies, and last forever. Think of all the billions that is now going to Rebuilding stations that could be saved. I am currently working on a virtual hearing aid, that will allow us to the see and hear the subways and buses as we wish. These aids can also be used outside of the subway in our daily relations with other people. We're about to enter a whole Brave New World, thanks to me.
Hey Paul: Let me know when your experiments are finished so all the rest of us can by your product by the gross. You're not an agent of the TA by any chance, are you? If you're satisfied with the subway as it now is, you're either very young or have a bad memory. The NYC Subway is the greatest of its kind in the world and should look that way. I kind of get the feeling, though, that you would like to change some things, too. Much of what goes on here is nostalgia by us old timers ( I will be 59 a month from today) If you are anywhere in that range you must remember that the subway was once clean. But you're right, if I could I would by those glasses you make, it you could make them. Until next time, adios.
Fred you must be wearing a pair of your own special glasses if you've read that I'm happy with the way the subway system is now. I've been 55 most of this year, about to turn 48 again next January. I'm just 4 years behind you. Maybe, people don't read my posts. But I remember posting after someone mentioned the $11 billion money floating around, that they should purchase a replacement fleet of R1/9's, Triplexes, Standards, Low V's, and Mack Buses for us Brooklyn people, and send the R 62 R44,and R46 out to the Flushing Line to carry the crowds out to the Mets Games. I would replace all the flourescent lighting in the system with 35 watt bulbs, so that the stations reflect the way I feel about things.
Paul: You got me, I admit it. I really believed that you felt all that could be done under the circumstances were. When you said you were heading to 55, I knew I had misinterpreted and was standing on this ice. I do recall reading about using the $11B for the purchase of Triplexes, R1/9's etc. At least you do recall when we had a subway system all could be proud of and not just subway fanatics like ourselves. Take care.
Guys I feel the same way I just turned 57 this month, and I remember all tghe old things too, even the Trolley Busses on the 47 Tompkins Ave from Willy Plaza to Ebbets Field, and my dad use to take me out to Sunnyside Yards in LIC to watch the big Pennsy GG 1s .The LIRR Doubledecker M Cars and in the Bronx by my aunt and uncle watching the NH electrics and washboard mu cars go rolling by the Fordham Station. I even remember NYC s Putnam Division taking me to Camp up in Mahaopac. Do you remember the Twin Coaches in Brooklyn Also Bob
I remember the trolley coaches on Cortelyou Road since I went to PS139 for kindergarten. I also remember the Twin Coaches (out of Ulmer Park, I believe) on 18th-Foster.
On those days before there were massive capital funds for equipment replacement on private lines, some really cool old buses still ran. For example, there were buses from the '30s on 14th Street in Manhattan up to about 1960. Also on lines like Hudson County Boulevard in New Jersey.
I do remember the old Pre War Yellow Coaches on 14th St, 8 St X Towns and the Spring-Delancy St. Also the Pre war Macks that the Ave B ran, I do remember a little door that the driver opened by his feet and you could see inside. My Great Uncle used to have a store on E 14 just East of 3rd in Manhatten , and my dad used to take me to the Italian Kitchen on 14th and 3rd for Spaghetti and MeatBalls for about $2.00. My dad usedm to talk about the Horse Car Trolley on Grand St when he was a child on the Lower Eastside(He was born in 1904)
Paul, do you have a pair of Roosevelt Raceway glasses?
Sure thing Sarge. I got a pair that you give to the guy at the window where you cash in your tickets, and it makes him see whatever you want him to.
I'm also working on a pair of glasses, that people can wear when they read my posts so that the posts will read in manner that will be more satisfying than what I wrote. I think I'm being too serious for the average person here. The glasses will lighten things up a bit.
What shade of Rose Colored are they Bob
Most righteous!
But you'll have to equip all the TA station personnel with them, so I can put a nickel in the turnstile and it will look to them like I'm using a $1.50 token.
Sure thing Paul. The way they count money in the money room, I don't think they'll notice if a couple of million dollars is unaccounted for. ( Not such a funny joke. I don't think they ever found that money that was missing many moons ago)
Reminds me of a joke by Steven Wright. A friend of his had a top secret job with the government and he was paid to find out who built the pyramids. After 20 years and many millions of dollars spent on the project, he reached the conclusion that a guy named Vinny did it.
Reminds me of a joke by Steven Wright. A friend of his had a top secret job with the government and he was paid to find out who built the pyramids. After 20 years and many millions of dollars spent on the project, he reached the conclusion that a guy named Vinny did it.
???? I don't get the joke. He came up with the right answer.
Vinny Barbarino?
In the NY Daily News, Monday September 27, The Op-Ed Page 33, is a article about the Second Ave. Subway. One Editor say The Full Length of Second Ave. The other editor says A Segment now, More later.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, which one should the MTA build.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
9/27/99
I don't know if you read my earlier post "Second Avenue riders come up "short" Sun Sept.26 20:49:25 ". To capsulize this long (sorry!) post my opinion is that the days of building long subway lines in New York City are long gone. Confined to the earlier part of this century when costs were much lower and the determination to replace "ELs" or new routes much higher,the LONG forestalled Second Avenue subway would take years and cost billions. It seems New York City had the chance earlier but kept putting it off and now its too late. If any new line was opened in the last forty years,it was usually a "connector" or an extension of a current line. Not a totally new one.
Bill Newkirk
Bill Newkirk, i also sent out a post about the 2nd ave subway when it came out in the paper on sunday sept 26, i believe i posted it at about 5 or 6am that day from the ny post or the ny daily news.
the one i posted today is a op-ed from the daily news for monday sept 27, and i asked the people of subtalk what they think of the writers story on it.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd, Bronx.
The Second Avenue Subway has reached a kind of mythical status.
Put it this way, when the Second Avenue was first publicly proposed my dad was 11 years old. He died eight years ago at the age of 83.
When the City floated a bond issue to pay to build it, I was about to go into kindergarten. Now I have an AARP card.
If it can be done, build the 2nd Ave/Broadway segment ASAP. If it's successful, use it to leverage extensions north and south.
How many of you 20-somethings on the forums are ready to tell your grandchildren: "Remember, hold out for the FULL Second Avenue Subway. Accept nothing less, It might get done by the time YOUR grandchildren are my age."
I realize that most of you 600 volt Juice Heads do not like to be seen around the Deisel Fume Sniffing guys ( and gals, almost forgot ) on the BusTalk board. However I posted an important post there this morning. Don't complain that you weren't alerted.
At the uptown 1/9 Chambers St. station I noticed the holding lights
have been replaced by green lights. I thought green lights were only
used at terminal points. Since South Ferry is the southern terminus,
what gives?
The first thing that comes to my mind is that they ran out of orange bulbs.
To critics of my silly posts,please note: I e-mailed this response direcly to Aaron and he suggested that I post it. Blame him for wasting your time.....
Well there has been a change in terminals on the No.1/9 Lines. South Ferry used to be the terminal we started from with the green starting Lights. We South Ferry now has Holding Lights.
Sorry I was rushed in the middle of my statement. Let me finish.
South Ferry now has holding lights. So they can only hold you or you just make a reguler station Stops. Chambers Street is now the starting point for the Uptown No.1/9. The Holding Light were replaced with Green starting Lights. Also you have to ID your train from Chambers Street Not South Ferry
Ex. 9:31 Chambers 9 to Van Courtland. You still ID your train from VC before Chambers.
Sorry if this is a dumb question, but what does it mean to "ID your train"? What exactly is involved in the procedure, and what's the reason for it?
Just curious.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
you give the time you left the terminal and the name of the terminal. If you left 207 at 10;15am you'd be 1015 A out of 207 or even shorter 1015 A,207. This let's control or a tower talk to a specific train anywhere along the route or a train talk to a tower or control.
EXAMPLE: "1015A, 207 this is 59(59th Street Master Tower)-- we are holding you for a connection."
EXAMPLE: "Control, come in to 1015A,207. We have a BIE at 125 (125th Street)"
I guess I wasn't very clear in my question ;-).
I understand the point of having a separate ID for each train; we have those on the line I work on (although they're much simpler; since we never have more than five revenue trains in service at any one time, we just use numbers 1-5).
But from the previous post (before *my* previous one), I thought I understood that a T/O must "ID his/her train" before leaving the terminal. Why is this done? It would seem to me that Control ought to *know* which train is which; OTOH, I guess they have *lots* of trains to keep track of.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
They don't know on the radio, just like if we didn't see the "Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden" after your name, we wouldn't know that you're from Sweden!
-Hank :)
;-) That's because I'm not, really; I'm originally from Mississippi.
Also, let me point out that the line I work on is *not* a subway line; the subway lines here have lots more than five trains in service at any one time! I work on a light rail line that runs from a subway terminal in Stockholm through a suburban community on an island just outside Stockholm.
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
Ok how this goes is you do not have to ID your train unless you have a problem then you have to call Control.
Ex. Control this is the 7:50 Chambers No.9 at Times Sqaure with door holding operating motor 2351. The Operating Motor is the car Number in the head car.
Also sometimes the Tower may not know who you are and then you have to inform them. The Most unbelievable thing I ever experanced was when E 180 did not know my call letters and being on time. But sometimes they have no clue who you are or what train your running.
Ok how this goes is you do not have to ID your train unless you have a problem then you have to call Control.
Ex. Control this is the 7:50 Chambers No.9 at Times Sqaure with door holding operating motor 2351. The Operating Motor is the car Number in the head car.
Also sometimes the Tower may not know who you are and then you have to inform them. The Most unbelievable thing I ever experanced was when E 180 did not know my call letters and being on time. But sometimes they have no clue who you are or what train your running.
OK, thanks for the info about that procedure. But I'm still confused over the previous discussion, regarding South Ferry vs. Chambers St., where somebody posted that (not an exact quote) "the T/O now has to ID his train from Chambers St."
This sounded to me as if this was a procedure that the T/O had to follow, but now that I think about that language, I can guess that it means that the train's ID changes, not anything procedural. To use your example, I assume that the T/O would previously have ID'd this train as the 7:47 South Ferry No. 9, for example.
Have I got it now? ;-)
--
Tim Kynerd
Sundbyberg (småstan i storstan), Sweden
tkynerd@my-deja.com
A perfect example is my run on Thursdays, on my second trip I am the 1702 Van Cortlandt my leader is the 1702 231street, same time but actualy a 3 to 4 min. interval. At Chambers(northbound) my leader becomes the 1803 and I become the 1807 Chambers. Hope that helps.
Basically, IDs are time departures and terminals of origin in IRT territory. B division call letters are broadcast with the time, followed by line letter abbreviations then the original terminal. The call letters are very important and have in the past caused problems resulting in near collisions. For EXAMPLE due to fire on the roadbed a few years ago a 1404 Charlie out of Rockaway Park was ordered to turn at Jay Street back South. The running time would be about 50 minutes. Meanwhile the 1404 Charlie out of Bedford Park 50 minutes into his run and being in the same radio sector of the IND as the turned train may have heard an order to turn his train but not realizing correct call letters nor calling command for verification, changed ends in a river tube not signalled for such. Stuff like this probably happens more in the IRT due to the lack of lettered abbreviation and loop track terminals. You can have an 0800 B out of Bedford Park and an 0800 D as well out of the same terminal but if language is correct, Bravo or Delta will determine the train involved in a problem. Incidently, I chose a specific time while looking at Monday to Friday work programs and found the number five line with 3 scheduled trains; one departing New Lots Northbound light for a putin, E.180 street putin southbound and one out of Bowling Green northbound. A lot easier than the railroad's practice of train numbers with 30 minute headways.
Chambers St. is now the terminal for 1/9 so you have "starting lights" instead of Holding Lights. Also cut back on Dispatchers/Asst. Dispatchers, their lights are out too.
They moved the timepoint for the line from South Ferry to Chambers St northbound. 1/9 trains now treat the loop as a regular stop. I've heard varying reasons for this, the ones that make the most sense are that it cuts down the heat in an already overly-hot station not having the trains idle there, and that the timekeeping has improved. Mind you, this change is NOT a public timetable change; as far as the people on the train are concerned, South Ferry is the last stop.
-Hank
I heard it was because people complained that they missed the ferry because a train was waiting in the loop and they were behind it.
During the 1964-1965 World's Fair, There was a World's Fair
Super Express on the 7 Line. How did the Super Express operate?
Which tracks did it use when traveling to/from the World's Fair?
What were the stops on the World's Fair Super Express?
How did the 2, 3, 4 and 5 lines operate in those days? Did the
4 and 5 trains terminate at Atlantic Avenue during weekdays from 9am
to 330pm? When did they operate to Utica, Flatbush and New Lots
Avenue? When the 4 operated to Flatbush Avenue, when did it run local
between Atlantic Avenue and Franklin Avenue? When did the 2 operated
to/from 241st Street-White Plains Road or Dyre Avenue? Did the 5
operated to/from 241st Street-White Plains Road all times except
12midnight to 6am daily? Was there a 9 Dyre Avenue Shuttle?
James Li
The #7 super express stopped at Times Sq., 5 Ave & Grand Central only. It followed the express of today, except it did not stop until Williets Point.
I believe that during the Fair's second season, the Super Express also stopped at QBP. The roll signs as deliverd on the WF R33/36s had readings for a Super Express in both directions, but I do not remember that there ever was a Super Express Manhattan bound.
The mainline redbirds also had sign readings for Super Express service, but I do not know where or whether those trains ever ran.
10 years ago the TA experimented with the Flushing Express skipping Woodside. After about a year of complaints, Woodside was made back into an express station. Perhaps that's what the Super Express meant.
There were definitely World's Fair super-express trains in both diections. They ran weekends to the fair in the mornings (and I think into early afternoon) and from the fair back to Manhattan in the evenings.
This is exactly the opposite of the "normal" express service, which runs to Manhattan in the morning and back to Queens in the evening.
I think the last super-express left Willet's Point some time around 7:00 PM. I remember that once we (my parents, brother, sister and me) just missed the last one and had to take the local. And no, they did not stop at Queensboro Plaza.
While the #7 line World's Fair special service was dubbed "Super Express", I don't ever remember seeing the "SUPER EXPRESS" used on the bottom of the destination signs. They seemed to use the very same "<-EXP - LOCAL->" (or reverse) setup as they have done in recent years. I do remember that publicity photos used the "SUPER EXPRESS"
signage, but I did ride the service about two days into the Fair's operation and was disappointed to see that the "Super Express" had already been "downgraded" to just a regular express.
However, it didn't take long to see the reasoning behind the use of the more-normal signs with the arrows -- it would have been a heck of a lot of work for train crews to change the signs at the end of each one-way trip.
There were rush-hour Super Expresses on the Flushing Line in the mid-1950s; the subject was discussed on Subtalk earlier this year, if I recall. I think at most there were around four in the morning and four in the evening. They were great fun to ride, with no stops between Queensborough Plaza and Willetts Point.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The "Super Express" sign was used for an earlier express service that ran on the Flushing Line during the early 50's. It stopped at Main,Willets,Queensboro Plaza and all stops to Times Square. There were three or four trains that ran IN ADDITION to the regular #7 express which carried the exp-local or local-express signs.
The #7 World's Fair Special also carried the local-exp and exp-local signs although sometimes for publicity shots the "Special" sign was displayed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The WF R-33s and R-36s did have "World's Fair" signs on the upper side curtains as well as both route and destination bulkhead curtains. This included a "7/World's Fair" front route marking in addition to "7/Flushing". I remember seeing a side "World's Fair" sign being displayed on an R-36 while heading back to Manhattan after a Mets game in 1970-71.
I'll bet R-33 9305 at the museum still has all those World's Fair markings on its roller curtains.
Steve: That's true. THey also carried "Willets Point" in addition to "World's Fair."
Larry,RedbirdR33
That would be the destination signs, correct?
Steve: I'm working from memory on this but I believe that the destination signs on the R-33 and R-36 Bluebirds were Main St-Flushing,World's Fair,Willets Point,111 Street-Corona and Times Square. The rout sign had local,lcl-exp,exp-lcl,special and no passengers. The front route sign had #7 Flushing,#7World's Fair,Special and No Passengers.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Did those cars also have mainline route and destination signs, or were these added after some of them migrated over there? Chances are their side route signs didn't change; the ones I saw on the West Side simply said, "Local" or "Express" on their sides.
The signs said <--Local Exp--> or <--Exp Local--> depending on where you were standing, I believe.
They still do.
This is Main Street-Flushing
The next stop on this 7 train will be Parsons Boulevard.
I personally only saw the <-Local-Exp.-> sign on 7 expresses.
Because those become locals the other way. The all locals stay local either way.
This is Jamaica Center
The next stop on this E train will be South Road
There was also a reading which said "EXPRESS" and another which said "Super Express". There were 2 versions of the North Destination sign. One had "Willets Pt.-Corona" and "111 St.-Corona". The other version said simply "Willets Pt." (Willets Point on the inside) and "111th Street".
The south destination sign simply had readings for Times Square and Special.
On the front sign, there were also readings which accomodated the Super Express service.
If anyone knows where I can find one of the route signs, I would be interested
If I recall correctly, I mean IIRC there was LIRR Specials to the fair. As a kid my grandmother took us to the fair from Hempstead Station and I remember it was a one-seat ride on Double Deckers. The train went from Hempstead to Woodside (or just outside of Woodside-can't remember if it stopped there.) After waiting a couple of minutes the train reversed directions and took the Port Washingon line to the Fair. I guess thats why they used the double deckers, they were the only cars on the LIRR with non-reversible seats!!
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
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The 2-3-4-5-6 were just about the same as they are today. I do not recall if the 4-5 terminated at Utica or Atlantic Aves during mid day.(it was 35 years ago) The 4 ran local to Flatbush in Midnight Hours. The trins did run more often back then duringnight hours then they do now, so most lines were not shorten during the midnight hours.As I said it is 35 years ago
Here's what I remember. Remember, it was 35 years ago, so I am not 100% correct, but close:
1964 season:
#2: Dyre or E 180th to Flatbush Ave
#3: 145/Lenox to New Lots except midnights
#4 Woodlawn to Atlantic (middays); Flatbush (rush hrs)
midnights all local stops Woodlawn to Flatbush
#5 E 241 St to Atlantic (middays); to South Ferry nights/weekends;
to Utica or New Lots rush hours
#6 Pretty much same as now.
#7 Super Express - Manhattan to World's Fair, approx 10:30 AM to 3:00 PM; from World's Fair approx 7:30 PM to 11:00 PM - stops only at Times Sq, Grand Central, and World's Fair. Weekeends, similar.
1965 season (the 2,3,4,5 lines had a major terminal swap in spring 1965):
#2 all times E 241 to New Lots
#3 145/Lenox to Flatbush except midnights
#4 Woodlawn to Atlantic middays, to Flatbush rush hours and midnights; to Utica on weekends. Express service on Lex 24 hours.
#5 Dyre to Atlantic middays, to Utica rush hours; to Bowling Green weekends and evenings; shuttle service Dyre to E 180 overnight. Rush hour thru expresses between E 241 and Utica.
#7 super express - same as 1964.
Didn't the 6 run to South Ferry part of the time back then?
I have a map from 1971 which shows the 6 going to South Ferry during rush hours but I never believed it, because the 2 tracks from Brooklyn Bridge to Bowling Green seem incapable of handling 4, 5, and 6 rush hour service.
The 6 local ran to South Ferry on weekends and shared the platform with the #1. On weekdays, it was old, old, cars on the Shuttle to the SF platform with the cutouts for going in the center doors only (or was it the end doors only? I can't remember).
The 2 ran from 241 St to Brooklyn overnight. And there was the usual rush-hour 7 Express line too. Did we forget that the #1 had two services all day? SF-242 St. and SF-137 St. And who could forget that every other (or 3rd) #5 went to 241 St. as the "THRU EXPRESS", meaning no stops from 149-3rd -> 180 St.
The LIRR ran a 50-cent fare (pretty darn expensive since the subway was only 20 cents) train non-stop from Penn Station to the World's Fair. Just once, my friends and I decided to really splurge and take the LIRR, even though we started from Brooklyn and had to pay that extra 50 cents after paying the 20 cents to get up to 34 St.
My parents remember the GG going to the 1939 World's Fair along the track that got torn up to create the northern half of the Van Wyck Expressway ("Oh, that's why the part north of the Interboro Pkwy looks so different and barely seems to connect to the older southern half").
The rails were torn up much earlier than the Van Wyck was built anywhere. The rail line was torn up after the close of the 39 fair. The Van Wyck was opened just in time for the '64 fair. The 16 year difference between the construction was what made them different.
The subway fare was still 15 cents during the World's Fair. I can vaguely remember notices pointing this out at token booths in 1965. It went up to 20 cents on July 5, 1966.
My Hagstrom's map from the mid-60s indicates the 6 as running to South Ferry part of the time.
But if the #6 went to South Ferry on the weekends, then that means the #5 went to Brooklyn. Did demand warrant both the 4 AND 5 going into Brooklyn? I was always under the impression that the #5 went to South Ferry when thru service on the Lexington Ave. line was still running (before 1977) ...
Chris: I assume the map you are talking about is the small pocket size one titled "Rapid Transit Guide" issued in 1968 (July) and updated in October of 1969 for the demise of the Myrtle Av El below Broadway. While this was an otherwise excellent map using solid lines for full time services and dotted lines for part time services it wasn't always clear what was a part time service.
The #6 service pattern was basically the same as it had been since Janaury,1961;briefly I list it here.
#6 Lexington Av Lcl Pelham Bay-Brooklyn Bridge M-F 6a-9p except during am rush stbd and pm rush ntbd when the Lcl-Exp was running.Sat & Sun 6a-12mid
#6 Lexington Av Lcl East 177 St-Brooklyn Bridge M-F 6a-7p
#6 Lexington Av Lcl Pelham Bay-South Ferry M-F 12 mid -6a,9p-12mid
Sat&Sun 12mid-6a
#6 Lexington Av Lcl-Exp (as it was called in those days) Pelham Bay-Brooklyn Bridge M-F am rush stbd,pm rush ntbd (Note no midday service)
Bowling Green-South Ferry service:
M-F 12mid-6a #6, 6a-7P Bowling Green Shuttle,7p-9p #5,9p-12mid #6
Sat 12mid-6a #6,6a-9a Bowling Green Stl,9a-12mid #5
Sun 12mid-6 a #6,6a-12mid #5
Actually, it's the cover of a NYC subway map puzzle, with the date 1971. It's a style I've never seen before, so I don't think it was official.
Brian Cudahy published an article in Rail Classics etitled:
"Baghdad On The Subway"
Can anyone tell me the month and year for this particular issue?
Thanks
This question is a little like "Fantasy Time" but with a much different twist.
Suppose we could reel the NYC transit system back to a specific point in time, but just the system. For all other purposes it would still be 1999. We'd still have the current highway system, buildings, economy, politicians, etc. But the system would exist exactly as it existed at whatever point in time you choose, then would move forward from that point in view of modern physical and political realities.
What year would you choose? And what do you think would happen from that point.
For example, suppose I choose 1939. The BMT and IRT and all the street railways and bus lines are still in private hands. There are lots of wooden gate cars around, and the BMT has just gotten the first of its Bluebirds.
Would this year be a good starting point? In light of modern attitudes toward privatization, maybe Unification would never happen. Would there still be public support for tearing down the els, or would people embrace scenic above ground lines as the best thing since sliced bread?
Subway equipment in 1939 would still be too new to consider what would replace it, but it would be decision time on what to do with a lot of elevateds and street railways. Would today's New Yorkers advocate purchase of fleets of modern trolleys, or would bus conversion be as popular now as then?
Would people demand that the east side els be preserved until after the Second Avenue Subway was built?
Of course, I understand someone on this forum is working on some special glasses so that we might actually find out...
"In light of modern attitudes toward privatization, maybe Unification would never happen."
This is only somewhat related, but I was simultaneously amused and angered when I found out, reading Cudahy's "Under the Sidewalks of New York," that William Randolph Hearst was one of the vocal supporters of municipalization of the IRT and BRT/BMT on the grounds that rapid transit was an essential public service, too important to have capital decisions made on the basis of profit. How would Citizen Hearst have liked it if people -- quite logically -- applied the same rationale to the only source of news in those pre-radio days and demanded the municipalization of his various newspapers?!
"Would there still be public support for tearing down the els, or would people embrace scenic above ground lines as the best thing since sliced bread?"
Well, there have been several proposals over the years here in Chicago (1914 & 1939 city plans come to mind) to replace the L, or at least the Loop portion thereof, with subways. However, more out of inertia and lack of funding for such a relatively low-priority project than out of nostalgia or preservationism, we kept the L. With the tourist trade being even more prominent nowadays (though it's always been big business), I haven't seen a guidebook yet that didn't mention the sightseeing aspects of the L. There's a Loop Tour Train on Saturdays during the summer, and CTA charters trains to groups and companies for dinner parties and murder mystery trains. This business certainly wouldn't exist if the downtown rapid transit lines were all subways and there was nothing to see out the windows!
I had heard that the Loop downtown was made a National Historic Landmark after talk about tearing it down and replacing it with subways started in the '70s again. Is this right?
--Mark
[Suppose we could reel the NYC transit system back to a specific point in time, but just the system. For all other purposes it would still be 1999. We'd still have the current highway system, buildings, economy, politicians, etc. But the system would exist exactly as it existed at whatever point in time you choose, then would move forward from that point in view of modern physical and political realities.]
I'd go for the late 1940s, for the following reasons:
1) The R-series cars were still young and in good shape.
2) The Triplexes and BMT Standards still had many years left in them.
3) Ridership numbers were as high as they've ever been.
4) The Third Avenue El was still going strong.
5) Unification had been accomplished and many of the kinks had been worked out.
6) And most important, the "deferred maintenance" policy that wrought havoc in later years hadn't yet begun.
I Like the 40s also, I vaguely remember trolley cars on both the Brooklyn and Williamsburg Bridge. Talk about waste of money, when was it 1947, when the B of T Tore up and replaced all the tracks of the Nostrand Ave Line, and then 4 years later replaced it with Mack Busses Also steam on the Bay Ridge line of the NH/LIRR. But I remember the 50s more, but if I had a time machine I think I would go back to 1946 a year after the war ended in 4 places with a VCR NY Chicago, LA and San Francisco. Aloha Bob
I would start at 1955, with the opening of the BMT-IND connection at Queens Plaza.
Wayne
I first thought `67 or `68, after Grand Street was built, before the fiscal crisis and before the Myrtle Avenue el was torn down. This was when the BMT standards were still running, all the R series cars up to R-38 were new or in good condition, and the R40's were just beginning to appear. After considering though, I agree that '39 is probably better, because of the much more extensive rail and trolley network at the time.
This, however, presents difficulties, because some of the ROW's have been replaced by buildings and highways. How would that be resolved? Also, any system that predates air conditioning will generate an immediate negative response from the riding public. They may have to end up retiring most of the equipment due to the fact that either the carbody will not handle the weight of AC units or the car weight will end up being prohibitive.
As for privatisation, I'm not sure. It might get taken over by the city anyway as the companies discover how unprofitable it is to run a system, even now, without seriously jacking up the fares. Investors are going to want to see results. If they do remain private though, I anticipate a merger between the IRT and BMT, possibly even buying the IND from the city (at least the city paying the privates to run it) in an attempt to consolidate their systems and reduce costs. If any of the smaller independants from 1939 still exist they will probably be absorbed. The new company might be called the New York Interborough Transit Corporation (http://www.interborough.com, symbol NYR on the NYSE 8-)). It would be interesting to see how such a company would grow and diversify (any takers?).
As far as what lines would remain, I think some of the els would still get torn down due to communities being used to open streets. The 2nd Ave el will get torn down because it duplicates the 3rd too closely (or vice versa), and the Ninth will be completely removed because of duplication by existing subway lines. Some of the trolleys, especially the ones crossing the bridges, will probably be removed to facilitate traffic or because of low usage. Buses tend to be more flexible than trolleys so we would still see the conversion of trolley lines to buses. A few trolley lines would still remain, maybe radiating from downtown Brooklyn, Coney Island, Flushing, Jamaica, etc., acting as mid-capacity feeders (higher than bus, lower than subway) and tourist attractions. The els that remain will probably have some of their stations removed (the 2nd Ave el stations were very close together, for instance) and the cars will be replaced by high tech, lighweight models which will break down frequently 8-). Expect facilities for the handicapped to be (re)installed. Any plans to build a 2nd Ave subway will probably be shelved because the city just got back the east side els for free, and lawsuits will prevent the remaining els from being demolished in the near future. Property values will probably drop, however, along whichever avenues still have the els.
Hey Andrew. I'm looking at my copy of By The El, a book of pictures about 3rd Ave. and the El at mid-century. When I look at the scenes of the el and the people, and compare it to 3rd Ave in the 60's now, there's no comparison. The old days were better and they were healthier. Dermatologist warn about the dangers of UV rays. With the el up again, we would be protected from those harmful rays. Think of all the nostalgic pictures we could take of light coming through the structure.
Some of your concerns are unfounded. There may be buildings and highways now in the right of way, but we will just have to demolish them, if for no other reason than just plain aesthetics. They look like crap. Air conditioning is no problem either, we just won't have any. Open the windows. You probably don't know that global warming is due mainly to the use of air-conditioning. The Laws of Thermodynamics are not to be violated. We want to be nice and cold inside the subway, well, then we will heat up the outside. We have to stop all this selfishness. Working up a little sweat won't hurt people. It might be the only honest work they do all day.
On a serious note, people with handicaps in 1939 were not encouraged to develop their lives. They would suffer again, unless they were able to conceal their handicaps, much like FDR did. This was part of the darker side of the good old days.
I disagree, I would rather pay $25 (or whatever high rate) for parking in Manhattan than sit for an hour in a linear oven. Of course, I probably wouldn't go to school in Manhattan if the only way to get there was by linear oven.
DOWN WITH THE R-33 SINGLE!!!
Would the els still have the pot belly stoves in the stations
At least not working. After all, these days it might be considered a fire hazard esp. in a wooden el station.
Not to mention causing air pollution.
Speaking of air pollution, if the trolleys still ran in Manhattan there would be less of it. They had underground wires and a smooth ride on girder rail. Contrast that to a diesel bus belching smoke or rattling down a potholed street. As for the "flexibility" of a bus over a trolley I don't think that applies in the older cities like New York. If you overlaid a trolley map on the present day bus routes I don't think you would see much of a difference in the core areas. Unfortunately we don't have a choice anymore. Any attempt to but the trolleys back would be too expensive. I think removing the trolleys instead of modernizing the system was a big mistake.
But a lot of cities are doing it, take the LA Blue line, it is almost the exact duplicate to the Long Beach Line which was discontinued in 1961, except for a couple streets in downtown LA.
Hindsight is 20/20. I think a lot of cities realize that now.
Now for the latest on Denver's southwest extension. More trackwork has been put down. It is in place all the way down from the present terminus to at least Hampden Ave., where Cinderella City (a former shopping mall) used to be, and I am speculating that the only spot where it still needs to be installed is the swapover flyover, which is now finished and being painted. The side facing Santa Fe Drive has a Rocky Mountain motif which has been painted R-17 maroon, while the rest of the bridge is beige.
The City had the opportunity to cut pollution by simply replacing retiring buses with CNG fuel buses--but they wouldn't even make that extra investment.
Could you imagine them funding any substantial amount of Light Rail.
Early to mid-sixties;a wonderful mix of ancient trains,dimly lit stations and VERY SAFE.Most of the people I know are a good deal younger than I and can't believe there was a time when a Ten year-old could ride the subs at night by himself,to the Bronx!(Bedford park).I recall,when my mother was taken to the hospital at twelve thirty AM,my grandmother was called to take care of me for the rest of the night. My father offered to send a cab but this 65 year-old chose to take the #4 from Bed PK to86th. It was faster! Safety was not an issue-till the late sixties.
P.S.The above mentioned event was a happy one(sort of),the birth of my brother Oct 63. A different world.
Fellow collector, Allan, reported that this show will occur October 23rd. Another collector friend said it was going to be mainly phone cards.
I called the number (212-563-5889) and was FAXed a flyer. The lady who answered said it will be MetroCards only, no admission, but maybe somekind of cover or minimum.
=================================================================
In case you missed the prev. post:
Baga Telle Restaurant 12 St. Marks Place (8th St) at 2/3 Ave
Take N/R to Astor Place
Sat. Oct. 23rd 10 AM thru 6 PM
Sponsor The Telecard Times (some kind of credit card newspaper ?)
Mr t__:^)
Telecard Times is a magazine primarily for the phone card market...they used to be part of a show (Telecard World) at the Javits Ctr every autumn.
You can also take the 6 to Astor Place
...or the L to 3rd Ave. and walk a couple blocks south.
After many years of investigation, I have come to the conclusion with perfect geometric logic ( like Capt. Queeg ) that the 2nd Avenue Subway has been running for at least 10 years. Crazy, you say? No, the 2nd Ave Subway has been running for the exclusive use of Wealthy East Siders. I'm crazy? Where are stations? How come nobody else knows of this? The rich are picked up in the basements of their exclusive East Side apartment houses. There are no street level entrances for ordinary folks. So how come nobody hears the train running?? That was a problem that took me the better part of a year to answer. The trains are Maglev. No steel wheels, just pure electromagnetism. This is the real reason that an ordinary 2nd ave subway will never be built. You guys keep asking, what happened to the 200,000 riders? Those 200,000 wealthy east siders are the missing 200,000. They ride in comfort while the masses are packed on the Lex. Remember you heard it first here on SubTalk. The place to come to when you want to know what's happening.
OK, you've let the cat out of the bag.
Are you going to describe the junction with the Beach Pneumatic downtown?
9/28/99
Okay Paul,find a kleenex,I think those glasses nead cleaning!!
Bill Newkirk
Paul I have heard rumors about such a connection
with the pneumatic tubes. I have not been able to
verify those rumors.
Since breaking my story here today, I have received
a report that on the inaugural run of the 2nd Ave
Premium Subway, there was an accident that dwarfed
Malbone Street. The Maglev cars were designed to be
ATO, but in the beginning an operator was required.
The operator on this tragic accident was a foreigner
J.Nesor who later was shown to be a disloyal officer
who had the key to the food locker. It seemed he
was numerically dysletic and when coming into the
severe curve near Floogle Street where the posted
speed was 18 MPH, he read it to be 81 MPH. All in
all, several thousand Masters of the Universe were
killed. It was the death of these titans that
caused the stock market crash of 87. How this was
all covered up is beyond me, but I am sending the
information to Brian Cudahy for further study and
another book. BTW, the train operator on the ill
fated run survived unharmed, changed his name and
was given another position with the city. However
he is forbidden from driving, and is always
chauffeured around. He still has some trauma from
the incident, and is constantly searching for
remnants of the elevated lines. He claims that the
bosses made him the fall guy for the accident, and
that his most immediate supervisor was paranoid and
actually the one who ate the strawberries.
Yeah right, Paul, and somebody actually made a key to the food locker and stole the strawberries!!!
I thought the strawberries were actually space aliens who were eaten while escaping.
This information is corroborated in the March 1987 issue of "The Trib", the short-lived NY newspaper that was around during that time. Of all the copies of "The Trib" that were published, I am fortunate to have this one.
--Mark
Mark, please hang on to that paper. I may need it when my commitment proceedings come up next month.
SOURCE: OFFICIAL AFC BULLETIN
" American Express Blue"
Goes on sale 7am on 10/04/1999
Stations (grouped to save space)
Lexington Ave--N/R
49--N/R
Prince- N/R
City Hall-- N/R
96--B/C/1/2/3/9
86--1/9/B/C
81--B/C
72--B/C/1/2/3/9
23--C/E/6
Chambers/WTC--A/C/E/1/2/3/9
7th Ave--B/D/E
5th Ave--E/F
14--F/1/2/3/9
Broadway-Lafayette/ Bleecker--B/D/F/Q/6
63rd/Lexington--Q
Franklin(MANHATTAN)--1/9
Houston--1/9
18--1/9
66--1/9
79--1/9
Spring--6
I'm sure the others here won't mind if I thank you again for going to the trouble of providing this info. It is appreciated !
Mr t__:^)
I saw the third go -round for the PT-1 (Dial 101-6868) It has a lady dressed in black. To recap the first was a lady wearing blue, then an asian man and now a lady wearing black. I have this one at 23/8th (24 hour booth)
That leaves one more, it will eather be:
- Lady on the phone
- White male with his mouth open
I'll bet it is the former.
Mr t__:^)
Just rode home from work on the Lexington Avenue Local (Uptown) on what I think was Corona Line equipment (sorry, I'm not up on my contract numbers). I know it was "Number 7" rolling stock because of the picture windows. It must have been in "Number 6" service for some time, as there were "strip" maps on each end depicting "6" service. I was in the 5th car, I believe. It and the one behind were numbers 9498 & 9499, respectively. The rest of the equipment on the consist was normal Lex Local "Redbirds" (3 "square" windows on the side). Thought it was a bit unusual.
Those are the R-36 cars from the Flushing Line and there are a few of them on the #6, although I've never seen them in solid trains on that line -- they're all mixed in with mainline Redbirds.
This has been the norm for a while now, I have spotted more than 3 different full train sets of R36 CORONAs on the 6 line asides from some sets stuck in a R33/R36 mix! I have also spotted a R36 CORONA set on the 5 line many of day!!! So Coronas on the Lex is now becoming the normal sight!
Trevor
About two years ago I rode on a 6 that had four matched pairs of R-36WFs and only two mainline R-36 cars. I don't know if that was deliberate, or just a coincidence that eight WF cars would end up onone train, considering the low ratio of WFs to mainline cars at Pelham Bay.
Actually, there are 42 R36WF and 36 R36ML.
Wayne
I didn't realize there were so few MLs on the 6. Thanks
Actually, there are only 34. I counted wrong. They're #9522-9557.
Wayne
9524-9557.
David (the nitpicker)
[Actually, there are only 34. I counted wrong. They're #9522-9557.]
Are there two missing from the sequence then? That sequence totals 36.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Check your math. 9524 to 9557, inclusive, equals 34 cars. That's all there are, and all there ever were.
David
[Are there two missing from the sequence then? That sequence totals 36.]
I was looking at the line that said 9522-9557, which is 36.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
9/28/99
I think you mean R-33 ML. The R-36's are strictly the picture windowed married pair Flushing fleet. However the single unit Flushing cars are the R-33's. Go figure!
Bill Newkirk
9/29/99
In response to my own post I thought I would provide the car numbers to prove this if there was any doubt.
R-33...8806-9305 Mailine cars,married pairs
R-33...9306-9345 Flushing cars,single units
R-36...9346-9523 Flushing cars,married pairs
R-36...9524-9557 Mailine cars,married pairs
R-36...9558-9769 Flushing cars,married pairs
Researched this imformation from an old publication of IRT equipment. It seems I had to correct my earlier post. Any corrections,please let me know.
Bill Newkirk
These R36WF are #9478-9523, and normally they mix in with the R36ML cars that have been on the #6 for quite some time - those are #9524-9557. I don't recall seeing the R36s mixed in with R29s (the other Redbirds on the #6, except there's at least one R33 train as well). The R29s are #8570-8693.
Wayne
Wayne,
I bet you didn't know this, but I had someone tell me during the ERA Excursion on the LIRR, that R36ML cars 9524 and 25 were in dead storage for a time and have not apparently been modified to an extent that other R36s had to endure. 9524 and 25 still have a tiled floor, something you rarely see. The pair still sounds original.
I still haven't spotted 8636 and 37 - I'm on the lookout for them:)
-Stef
9/28/99
One thing you should listen for on the Flushing cars on mainline is the original brake release sound. The early 80's GOH'd Flushing cars had that replaced with the overhaul. All equipment has the newer sounding air compressors,the originals habe been replaced.
Bill Newkirk
Are you referring to the high-pitched beep from the load sensing valve? The Flushing R-36s still do that.
I remember seeing WF R-36s on the West Side lines during the late 70s. They would always be mixed in with other cars such as R-21s and R-22s, and stuck out like sore thumbs because they still had their original teal and blue paint scheme.
9/30/99
Steve B.,
Nope,what I was saying I was at Grand Central spying a consist of Flushing cars heading north on the (6) and after the doors closed there was that original brake release sound heard on the R-17's through R-32's. The cars on the Flushing line have an updated sound because of the GOH in the early 80's.
Bill Newkirk
The Flushing line cars don't even make that sound anymore except for the single unit R33(my favorite).
GASP!!! That's in complete conflict with my beliefs, my most hated car in the NY Subway, EVER is the R-33 single. IT MUST BE STOPPED NOW! Of course, because it's a single, it's good for museums.
IT WILL LIVE FOREVER!!!!
Hopefully AWAY FROM PASSENGER SERVICE. BTW, if you tell me why you like it, I'll tell you why I hate it (unless you've already figured it out).
What were the center two express tracks on the Sea Beach Line in Brooklyn designed for???
I heard that they were for freight. I don't know if it is true. Does anyone else know?
They were to allow for Super Express service to Coney Island. Probably the only express tracks on any major rapid transit system designed for off-hours/seasonal use.
From 1924 expresses ran on these tracks on Sunny Summer Sundays and sometimes Saturdays to Chambers Street.
I think that if they had built a couple of additional express stops, say at New Utrecht, Bay Parkway and Kings Highway, there might have been a better chance for regular express service. As it is now, from 59th St. the next stop is Coney Island - great for "Sunny Summer Sundays" but not of much use for regular rush hour traffic to and fom Manhattan.
Later than 1925 (someone jump in with the date) they ran NX service that came from the Brighton Line through Stillwell and express to 4th Ave.
Now it is used as a test track, matter of fact they installed a new bidirectional singal system on the "Manhattan Express" track for testing.
Lou from Brooklyn: That's fine Lou but what about using the express tracks on the Sea Beach line for regular service with the Sea Beach running as an express train again. There I go trying to turn back the clock but it makes sense to me. At certain times of the day, it is not necessary for the Sea Beach to run local in Brooklyn, and it would be nice if we could bypass some of the lesser stops in Manhattan and let the R or other trains take up the slack.
I don't think there's any interest at the TA in running regular service on the Sea Beach middle track(s).
True, they had the NX, but this was really a sop to Brighton riders who were angered by suddenly going from 40 trains per hour via Broadway to zero.
When the Brighton riders didn't bite, they could've given a revised NX a shot at success by running local Kings Highway to Coney Island only, but never even tried it.
I know for a fact this was suggested.
Ridership wouldn't support the non-stop express option.
However, with the southbound express track now OOS, there is room for an island platform to be built at, say, Kings Highway & New Utrecht Avenue. That might make the express service more meaningful. But, again, ridership patterns don't support it.
--Mark
Only at New Utrecht could that be done, since the express tracks split into 2 before getting to Kings Highway.
Express service on the N will require reconstructing new stations along the route. THAT'S JUST TOO EXPENSIVE! Therefore, the B is more suitable for express service than the N.
N Broadway Local
Well, duh....LOL
The NX: Born November 26th, 1967 (Chrystie St opening), Died April 12th, 1968.
--Mark
Not much in the way of longevity, eh Mark?
did anyone remember the Franklin-Chambers Specials in the mid 50s on Summer Sundays used the express tracks
I only remember seeing the Franklin-Chambers (AKA Franklin-Nassau, AKA, Sunny Sunday Summer Special) once.
But I never got to ride the Coney Island-Chambers leg (sniff).
I used to live by the Kings Hwy Brighton line. Sometimes when my parents gave me money to go to the movies I used to ride the subway instead. One of My favorite rides on a Summer Sunday pm was the Franklin Nassau Specials. Brightons all the way to Coney Island,and then switch over to the Sea Beach Express. Next Stop 59th St, running 40 mph all the way. Then I used to change at Chambers for a IRT to the Bronx Zoo. Then come home the regular way, I liked the Lex better then the 7th Ave, because of the winding squeeling interchange at 149th-Concourse. Real loud and noisy on the old Lo-Volts.
My feelings exactly. When the Sea Beach line opened in 1915, it was touted as having the best express run in New York. A nonstop run like that is good for moving masses of people to and from Coney Island, which is most likely what it was intended for, but not much else.
Wasn't the Sea Beach line upgraded from a two track right of way to a four track right of way??? Wouldn't there be a serious reason to upgrade the section??? Weekend expresses could not justify the amount that must have been spent to do this.
At the time (1915) Coney Island was a big revenue generator for the BRT and they wanted a fast express to whisk IRT passengers from the City Hall elevated terminal to Coney Island.
Remember, all the Southern Division lines (and then some) were originally built with getting the Coney Island traffic. The Sea Beach express tracks seemed justified in the era.
On a typical summer day in 1915-40 there were half a million people visiting Coney Island for some recreational reason. In the days before Moses' highways made commuting by car more convienent, the subway was the only way to get to Coney Island. My dad tells me that Coney Island bound Brighton trains were even more crowded on hot summer weekends than Manhattan bound trains were, even at the height of rush-hour. It does seem odd, but the BMT was designed to serve as a mass transit system to serve all of the transit needs Brooklynites had, not just to get them into Manhattan on workdays. Coney Island was the Times Sq, Grand Central and City hall of Brooklyn. So it was perfectly justified constructing the Sea Beach super express at that time.
Excellent website!
I live in Chicago and ride the L every day, but I've been to NYC a couple times and love the subways with a passion. "Grass is always greener..."
Here's my stupid question: Where would I be able to find a .wav file of the "bing-bong" chime you hear when the subway doors close? If I could get that sound along with the sound of nice big IND train accelerating out of a station, then so much the better. (Yes, we have subways here in Chicago, but there's no chime and the sound the trains make is completely different.)
My e-mail is DavidCole@NthWard.com. Thanks in advance.
-- David
Check your e-mail: I have sent to you a .wav file (attached to an e-mail). Let me know how it works out (as it is a binary file). Put it in your c:\windows\media directory and try assigning it to an event in Control Panel 'sounds'.
Wayne
Can you send it to me? I can post it.
I would also like to get that file. ;-) My email is brandon@midsouth.rr.com
Same here, imacman456@yahoo.com
Done and done.
Wayne
Here's the R-46 Door Closing Chime.
That was nice. Now does anyone have a .wav file of a pre-GOH R40/42's brakes being released (the ones that sound like Darth Vader exhaling)?
Wow, it's even out of tune!
Wayne
Unfortunately, I have no way of playing it, so you'll have to tell me if they're off pitch or what. Or is it a case of several chimes out of tune with each other?
On the R46 chimes, the chime itself is flat 1/4 tone. You can hear in the background other chimes that aren't the same pitch.
The R44 chime must have been recorded right up against the speaker. It is a perfect E - C.
Wayne
How ironic. The R-44s may not be the best cars around, but their door chimes are in tune. The R-46s are good cars, but their door chimes can sometimes rattle your fillings.
I used to have this wav file on my PC at my last job. I had it set to play when I closed a program. When I was shutting down at the end of the day it was cool to hear the endless chimes as all of my programs closed. It reminded my of everyone squeezing aboard a train at rush hour while the C/R is trying to close the doors.
Wayne
And in the subway sections, the noise level is excruciatingly loud.
To all concerned: as far as I have heard the FS is due to reopen on or shortly after October 6th (as I have posted earlier).
However -- and this is important -- THERE WILL NOT BE any big inaugural fanfare involving press/local politicos, etc. It will just resume service quietly and almost unannounced.
I will try and narrow the exact date/time of service renewal for those (like myself) who will want to attempt to document the inaugural trip.
Doug aka BMTman
Will the new Shuttle include a transfer to the 2/3?
It is supposed to and it is on the new maps!!
This is my home line Brighton that is, I hope to ride the Shuttle as soon as it gets back. Matter of fact 4 times a year I have to go to Nostrand Ave on the IRT. I wonder if the D to the Shuttle to the 4 (this is Sunday Morning) will be faster then the D to Atlantic Ave....
Hmmm... Can't wait to find out...
What station did you get the September 1999 map? I've been trying to find it for a long long long time.
As far as we've already heard, there is supposed to be a connection by the Botanic Garden station (a long walkway).
Doug aka BMTman
To those who are interested, the last of the incandescent light fixtures at East Broadway are coming down, to be replaced by fluorescent fixtures. It's joining Delancey Street which lost its fixtures a year or so ago. No more dim mezzanines and passageways or whole rows of bulbs not working because of electrical problems.
Andrew, I sense that you will miss the incandescents. Have no fear, on 1-1-2000 every station in the system will returned to the warmth of incandescent illumination.
They were dim, but not scary because I've known them for as long as I've ridden the subway and they've been unchanged til now. You were also in full view of the token booth. At one point even the abandoned sections of the station were kept lit, when you could see through the slats (before the steel doors were put in).
Good. Now they should bring the 14th St./6th. Ave. and 71 St./Continental Ave. mezzanines into the latter half of the 20th century as well.
If you think that's bad, go visit Fordham Road on the Concourse IND in the Bronx! That's the dimmest one I've ever seen - little tiny bulbs set in the recesses of the ceiling, so they only shine down, not around. In contrast,the 205th Street's west exit has a brightly-lit stairway, all incandescent, quite nice.
Back to East Broadway - I wonder if they will leave the long rods hanging from the ceiling in the Madison Street ramp, and put plugs in the bulb sockets. I am going to miss the ambient light.
W a y n e
Nope, most of the long rod incandescent fixtures are gone, and this was a couple of days ago. yea, I'll miss the ambient lighting too.
Seeing thise hanging incandescebt light fixtures brings back memories. I remember seeing them along the Fulton St. local before they installed the flourescents. Many of them were vandalized and those stations (I once saw almost half of the Kingston/Throop station completely dark) looked mighty scary.
Trivia question: Anyone remember the last incandescent-lit station platforms in the system and the year they were finally replaced with flourescents (hint: they're in Brooklyn)?
It was IIRC Church Avenue, sometime in the late 1980s. It remained incandescent even after 7th Avenue, 15th Street-Prospect Park and Fort Hamilton Parkway became flourescent.
Church Avenue was featured in some of the vignettes in 'Subway Stories', which was on HBO the other night. It was disguised in two of them, but was plainly identifiable in one other - the one with the sax player, the gospel singer and the Cantor. That Cantor had some voice! With the sax player following him, and the echo of the subway station...whew!
Wayne
Yup, Church Ave. and Fort Hamilton Pkwy. were lit by incandescent lights as late as September 87. It seems almost impossible that people could use an entire system lit as dimly as the stations once were before flourescent lighting. Muggers must have had a field day.
As for SubwayStories, I found it amusing that they chose an R68 to emulate an M train. Church Ave was disguised as Broad St. for the stockbroker story.
When I saw that show, I was surprised to see R-32s on the Q. Not long after that, I was in the city and sure enough, there they were. Who says you can't go home again (the R-32s, that is)?
I was even more surprised to see R42s on the "A" - #4725 to be exact.
The "M" was R68 #2600 in every scene. I'd like to see that beast navigate the curve south of Chambers Street! *** CRUNCH **** OUCH!!
Broad Street was represented as itself in the final segment - the one with Gregory Hines. A properly-numbered "J" train, #4836, was seen there.
All in all, a very entertaining movie.
Wayne
Hey, if they put all the R-68s (and the R-44s) on the M/J/Z it wouldn't bother me, though anyone living at Myrtle/Broadway or Cresent Street might see their homeowners/renters insurance premiums go up a little.
I could have sworn those were R-38s on the A. I'm going to have to dig out that video and view it again.
One vignette DID feature an R38 - the one where the lady gets trapped behind the locked gate. No car number or destination sign was visible.
The one with the "A" train is the one with Rosie Perez - think it's called "Love on the 'A' Train" and in one sequence, the car number is clearly visible behind her head - #4725, an R42. Watch the window sign too - clearly a post-GOH R40M/R42 sign.
Wayne
I will have to dig out my video and watch it again. Too bad they couldn't get Hector Elizondo to do one of those stories. Did you ever see one of those promotional posters featuring him? There's a photo of him along with a caption which starts out something like: "Hi. I'm Hector Elizondo. I'm a native of New York City and have been a subway user all my life." No reference to Pelham, though. I will always see him as Mr. Gray.
BTW, did you know Elizondo is a guitarist and singer?
If elevated platforms count there are stations on the L line and 6 line to this date that still have incandescent lights
I was referring to underground stops, but you're correct. Both Pelham Pkwy. and Bronx Park East still have the old lights, as well as Aqueduct on the Rockaway line. IIRC, the Rockaway shuttle stops from 90th St. down have yet to be rehabbed, but I haven't been down that way since 1994.
Also 9th Ave Brooklyn. The canopied portion has fluorescent lighting but the ends have incandescent in the traditional shaded three light style.Ialso think Buhre and Middletown on Pelham line had old lights
As long as they don't replace the old H&M mosaic signs at 14th.
I seem to remember this happening more in the later
years, although that may be a result of having them
on the Brighton Line in their later years. Every
now and then, you would find a car with all the
lights out including the back-up lights. It was
scary, sitting in the dark with other people. But
there was something very mysterious and appealing
about it. And if you were really lucky, the front
car would be dark, and looking out the front window
with no lights in the car behind you really gave you
a chance to experience the rush through the
darkness. The only light came from the tunnel
lights. I don't think I ever remember them
isolating a dark car. A little darkness was fun.
Reminds me of a couple years ago here in Chicago, when for some reason the CTA decided to put a vintage 6000-Series trainset into service on the Blue Line one day, making a run from the Forest Park station out the Rosemont yards.
I caught the train at the UIC / Halsted stop just before it went into the subway, and noticed that all the interior lights were out -- completely dark. In addition, this being a hot summer day, the train had all its windows open (The 6000 Series is pre-A/C, btw)... The roar of the train through the subway tunnel was utterly deafening, and being in near-complete darkness and feeling the rush of the wind inside the train only added to the excitement.
Foolish me, I got off the train only a couple stops later... Guess I must have had someplace to be. To this day I wish I had at least stayed on as far as the Division Street stop; Between the Clark / Lake and Division stops is a fairly long stretch of subway tunnel where the Blue Line trains are able to pick up some very impressive speeds. I bet it would have been quite the experience... *sigh*
Oh well... Thanks for letting me share.
-- David
The Nth Ward: http://www.NthWard.com
Never did ride a completely dark R-1/9. When i was old enough to railfan (actually sneak a ride on the subways) the R-1/9's werein theirlast days on the CC. I did enjoy all of those dark R-40M/42 on the D.
Wayne
As a youtI had fund memorys of CAUSING dark cars on R-9s. One kid who went to me scool grabbed the seats and throwed them into the fans, causing a nice overlood at the fuze panells in the cabs. Now as a adult I see kids that have adapted to modern tecknology. I seen kids from Beach Channel kicking the plastic cieling light covers and causing the light blubs behind them to shatter when the C ran out there to 116street. They all have keys too so they can shutdown cars on their way home and do PA talk. Speaking of which are the Tuffak windows still prone to vandalism? I see signatures from "Mike the Glazier" all over the place. Is the TA going to stop scratchiti? Who is getting money on the side to buy windows that keep getting scratched? Who is this Joe Hoffman?
No, but I remember a lot of dark R40/42's. I remember riding one along the entire length of the K line in 1986 and also one on the D in 1985. I loved the fact that there were no interior images reflected from a dark car against the windows and it gave you an unobstructed view outside.
BTW, I had a flashback to those memories last year on the F line when an F train of R46's went underground between Church and Ditmas Ave. It had it's lights turned off along the elevated part of the Culver line but the condctor forgot to turn them on when we slipped underground. The only light was the pale green glow of the backlit LCD side signs. It was surreal whizzing past the incandescent tunnel lights. Almost like being on LSD...LOL. The lights were finall lit at Carroll St.
Yes! And so did my girlfriends!
Well ... maybe not on an R1/9. For pleasant snuggling with a little privacy, nothing beat the converted cab on an unrebuilt B-type.
When I used to ride the LIRR regularly after midnight, it was not uncommon to have an intentionally dark car, save for the emergencies, especially on diesels.
This was so we late night workers could get 40 winks. The conductor would use his little flashlight to navigate and check tickets. (You were expected to wake up for ticket taking).
If I was awake, this was especially fun on a late night run on the Main Line, with the grade-crossing lights sweeping through the car at 60 mph or so.
[ When I used to ride the LIRR regularly after midnight, it was not
uncommon to have an intentionally dark car, save for the emergencies,
especially on diesels. ]
I wish they'd do this now. These new bilevels have lights so bright that it hurts my eyes to walk into one late at night..
I have one, but it was a train of R-16's in 1984. And her name was Kimberly Ann. Ah yes, youth.......
I gave the conductor $10 to turn the lights off but my date still slapped me!!
A dark R-16? No surprise there.
I remember one experience on a dark R-1/9. Of all days, it was on July 1, 1968, the very day the 57th St. station opened at 6th Ave. and the KK made its debut. My mother and I went into the city to meet my aunt at LGA, and were waiting for a Queens-bound E train at 42nd St. I didn't mind taking an E train north of 42nd. Well, in comes a veteran train with the first car completely dark. We got on and had an otherwise uneventful but fast run to Roosevelt Ave.
By then I had gotten to know the subway fairly well in terms of what train to take to get to wherever, and knowing that my aunt was staying at the Lincoln Center Motor Inn (she admits to this day she doesn't know why she didn't stay with us), I said we'd have to take the 7 back to Manhattan and transfer to a 1 at Times Square if we wanted to transfer for free. And so we did. That was my first time on the 7. After seeing my aunt to the motel, my mother and I went up to the Bronx on a D train of R-32s. There was a yarn store on the Grand Concourse, Goldman's, which she would go to occasionally.
Does B and Triplex count also, and how about R-10s. Yest they were all like that once in a while
If you're referring to the Kozy Kab, AFAIK, they were only on unrebuilt B-types.
9/29/99
I had but on LIRR M-1 equipment. If it was fall or spring and leaving Penn Station,a dark car with ceiling emergency lights was the ticket. The problem was motor generator,very common on M-1's. Leaving Penn with all those tunnel lights zooming by was quite a light show. It was better at night because when stopping at stations those cars are dead quiet. Only the PA worked. No heat or A/C. Now if was winter and frozen precip was falling and you were entering Jamaica at night,the sight of those dancing flames on the old switch heaters couldn't be beat.
Bill Newkirk
I remember #1386 being dark on the "GG", and #1117 dark on the "F". My most vivid memory is not of a dark R-6 or R-7, but of a dark R-10: #3194, the lead motor, roaring up CPW and St. Nicholas Avenue at a dizzying pace, the tunnel and station lights flashing through her open windows. This was back in August 1971.
I also remember a dark R44, #170. It was the first car as well. It was nice and cool, but nobody was in it. The doors closed and my nose soon told me why I was almost alone - "Old Mary" was curled up in the corner! I bailed out at the next stop.
Wayne
Not of subways, But I've had a few "warm" memories of riding in LIRR trains that were dark. I'd rather forget them though.
Speaking of which - I've noticed the #7 train normally has it's lights out durring the day when it's above ground - anyone know about this?
Many trains turn their lights off when they become elevated/above ground. The fun is when they go back underground and the conductor forgets to turn them back on!
Very warm memories:returning from Rock Park on the E August 1966,shortly after going underground a Grand Av. my father and t heard a LOUD bang accompanied w/blue arc. Then total darkness-what a great ride. Istill remember the roar of those cars darkness made it even more enjoyable. Also most of the stations west of Euclid av were still incandescent. Was i scared HELL NO! I was almost TEN! Noisey,HOT,sometimes DARK,i loved those trains.
That's a nice story. The bang and the blue arc was spooky. Yeah, the sounds of those cars really does it for some of us. I taped a couple of hours of the R9's on the LL and CC, and put some of it together on a 60 minute cassette. It's got a lot of air compressor, air brakes, and just general roar. I've been offering it to anyone who would dig it. You can just mail me a blank cassette back. If you're interested, just click on my name on this posting.
When I first read the post, I thought the car was dark to start with and then you heard the bang and the arcing. That would have been something in a dark car. It might make you wonder where you were really headed? Paul
Certainly interested,as yet I`ve not set up an E-mail address,will contact you as soon as I do. By the fall of 1967 I had a Uher 4000 reel to reel. We often used it to record family trips which frequently included subs and buses we had a car,but almost always used public transit.Anyway,typical of a kid I seldom kept anything on tapr more than a few days. I just assumed these things would always be there-too bad. I should probably record some Red-Bird sounds before they too are gone.
If you want a copy of the R9 sounds, you don't need an e-mail address because it is on old fashion cassette tape. I would have to send it through the mails to you. Of course you'll start receiving mail from all kinds of crack pot companies that I sell my mailing list of people who like R9 sounds. But you can tell me in your request for a copy, DO NOT GIVE MY ADDRESS TO ANY CRACK POT COMPANIES, and then you'll only get the tape from this crack pot. Paul
As much as I love the Redbirds, their sounds pale in comparison to those emitted by the venerable R-1/9s. Those old timers sounded alive with their hisses and throbbing compressors. Add to that, their spur-cut bull and pinion gears sounded much more colorful than the helical-cut gears which all of the modern postwar cars have.
August of 1966 was about the time R-1/9s out of Queens were dropping like flies. To make a long story short, R-38s which had been delivered were pressed into service; R-16s were borrowed from the BMT; and a group of BMT standards awaiting the scrapper's torch were literally pulled off the scrap line and returned to revenue service.
Let me put in another plug for Paul's tape: if you loved the R-1/9 sounds as much as I did, this tape has it all. You won't be disappointed. You'll think you're on the train.
Yesterday I went to SEPTA's open house on the Girard Light Rail improvement.
They had a nice, citywide aerial photo of the project(I could see my house:)), extending the length of the old 15 trolley.
Some things I noted:
1. The trolley bays(2, 3, 4, 6,7) at the Callowhill Depot will be repaired for servicing cars.
2. Tracks and switches will be repaired at the huge 60th Street-Haverford Ave-Girard Ave intersection and at 59th Street, all track from 58th to 52nd, at 46th Street, and from around 20th Street all the way to Susquehanna Avenue.
3. The project will cause detours and is expected to be complete by 2002.
4. They had no information about new LRV's on order.
BUT... The project has been scaled WAY back from its original goal of complete separation of rail and traffic. There will only be a separate track area from east of 40th St to 33rd St (thru the Zoo area, currently raised/separated track and across the Schuylkill River bridge), Broad St to 6th St and Front St to Susquehanna Ave. Also, the segment on South College Ave may get some kind of separated treatment. Unfortunately, due to budget problems, the separation may be a simple painted line with perhaps a rumble strip similar to those used on shoulders on expressways (the ones which are supposed to wake you up if you ride onto them - and they work!).
The project has gone from a true light rail line to a glorified streetcar in a paved track area which will likely not be patrolled or enforced by police, thus all the operational advantages will be lost. Service will be provided by 20+ year old K cars while the new low-floor cars to be purchased will serve the subway-surface (most likely Route 13). SEPTA isn't even planning any significant rehab on the cars it's going to assign to the line.
While this line may be viewed as a 'plus' by railfans, the project is turning into an expensive debacle and its value is being questioned. I wouldn't set aside any dates in my calendar for the ribbon cutting. As much as I am a fan of transit and streetcars, I seriously question the 'why' behind this line. The buses which have served it since '92, save for the summer of '93, have been doing the job. When the K cars went on the line in summer '93, they couldn't go past Richmond & Cumberland due to power problems past there. Much of the cost of the revitalization of the line is going into power infrastructure, while corners are being cut elsewhere. Thus, the line will be more of a glorified 1940's streetcar line, great for nostalgia but not so good for moving customers (and, after all, that's what transit is all about), than a 21st century light rail line. Spadina it ain't.
Cumberland - is that right before the bridge where the wires are
removed? I've driven past there a few times, and it's funny - the
wires seem perfect north of that to the next turnaround. Whatever
happened there? Flooding?
Cumberland is two blocks south of Lehigh. Just north of Lehigh, Richmond ducks under the conglomeration of low clearance bridges that once carried the Reading Lines' tracks into Port Richmond. There is only one track left and it gets infrequent use.
The clearance under the lowest bridge is a little less than 12', and the trolley rails are actually mounted on shallow steel plate ties in the pavement. The low wires were constantly being pulled down by trucks going thru the underpass, thus SEPTA opted to take the wires down and remount them when needed.
The same sort of problem exists on Germantown Ave at Wayne Junction.
Below are the capitions you need. My phone line is not working at home and I can't receive E-Mails.
155th Street Shuttle Photographs
All photographs taken on February 12. 1987 taken by David M. Rosenthal
9the104.jpg
162nd Street and Anderson Avenue embankment looking up on track level. Location of Anderson-Jerome Avenues Station.
9the105.jpg
162nd Street and Anderson Avenue embankment wall. Location of Anderson-Jerome Avenues Station.
9the106jpg
162nd Street and Anderson Avenue embankment wall. This door says IRT Co and has onion stored behind the door. Location of Anderson-Jerome Avenues Station.
Before the rebuilding, didn't some of the shuttle's stations enjoy the highest percentage of fare evasion? And was the security concern of the people who operated and travelled on the shuttle? What will be different now as far as fare evasion and safety?
We do challenge fare evaders. Just yesterday, I challenged a fare evader who timed his jump (and yes, he did JUMP over the turnstile) to meet an arriving train. A cop was on the train in the car that stopped near my booth and I told the cop who promptly went after the evader who boarded the next car-what a suprise he had!
I do tell fare evaders that you never know when a cop will appear. I have had cops hiding in rooms at stations and then appear when I challenge a farer evader- much to their dismay! Also cops could be coming down a street stairway or another part of the station and hear the challenge and remove the offender.
We also challenge skate boarders, bike riders, roller bladers and a cop will remove them too( for doing it on the platform or train)!
Good for you! I'd hate to see a fare hike that would be due in large part to individuals who think it's all right to ride for nothing.
at one station I found a way that fare evaders beat the high entrance! I told supervision who agreed it is a flaw!
I *will not** state the flaw either on subtalk or via e-mail.
Yes, When I see a farebeater beat the highwheel I also challenge them (and have had several caught).
Like everything else at the TA, you're doing a better job than TA workers were 20 years ago. Back then, station agents didn't want to be bothered challenging fare evaders, and car equipment didn't want to be bothered maintaining trains. Not long before I signed on, it took six months for material to process an order, vs. a couple of days today. Not enough credit is given for these changes -- MDBF, fare evasion, etc.
heypaul (former known as tcchhsss and aka the bike rider).
I believe Dean Street station (which now no longer exists) was a severe fare-beaters heaven. I heard that due to the desolate nature of the station -- and lack of police presence -- it rarely had anyone paying the fare. Hence, the 86ing of the Dean Street station in the reconstruction plans.
Doug aka BMTman
Thanks Doug. I haven't been following the rebuilding of the line. I didn't even know that Dean Street was deleted from the line. Did they used to keep the front and rear cars closed to protect the crew? Or was it to protect the customers from the crew?
I have two reasons for changing my name frequently. One is deep psychological problems. The second is to make it harder for people to automatically tell from my name that this is a message that they don't need to read, judging from my past postings. In fact, I'm considering signing Doug aka INDman, hoping to play off your well deserved reputation. Seriously, you're a really good guy.
[Thanks Doug. I haven't been following the rebuilding of the line. I didn't even know that Dean Street was deleted from the line]
Dean Street wasn't closed as part of the Shuttle's reconstruction. It was closed back in 1995 or early 1996. Part of the problem was that the platforms were in terrible shape, so bad that they couldn't have waited for the Shuttle's general reconstruction.
Dean Street was one of the those stations whose real purpose was to replace a station that was lost, but wouldn't have been built new.
In the case of Dean Street, it was the loss of Bedford Terminal on Atlantic Avenue.
Another such station was Union Hall Street on the LIRR, location of the original Jamaica Station. Union Hall is also long closed.
Union Hall is not long closed. I am 46 yrs old and I remember stopping there in the 60's on the Hempstead line. Of course I know "long closed" is a relative term.
[Union Hall is not long closed. I am 46 yrs old and I remember stopping there in the 60's on the Hempstead line. Of course I know "long closed" is a relative term.]
According to Bob Andersen's site (http://www.lirrhistory.com), Union Hall was closed in 1977. It outlived Bellaire by five years and the old Hillside station by 11 years.
I remember Union Hall was a great station for Train Watching way back then
I went to ride the Newark subway this morning. I saw people buying tickets from machines, so I figured you needed a ticket. I found their machines a little more confusing than our Metro Card Machines, mostly because I had never used NJT ticket machines. I bought 4 one way $1 tickets, and a ticket came out and I almost started to walk away. I figured that they coded in 4 rides. I looked at it and it said only $1.00 on the bottom. Then I noticed the machine said wait while the other cards are being printed. And they came out one at a time. Then you're supposed to validate the ticket with another machine. At the first couple of stops, I see some people putting money in. To make a long story short, next Monday they you will have to have a ticket. I got the sense that you wouldn't give it to the operator, but I guess they might be spot checked. One of the operators didn't take the ticket saying that they were instructed not to take them today. I was riding from about 8 to 9:30. I just like seeing the cars run on a close headway.
I didn't seem to notice much light dimming as other cars were in the area. Do they have those wires juiced up with the ability to carry plenty of current? Because I remember from Boston on the Ashmont line, when another PCC came near, the lights dimmed.
Anyway, that's the news from Newark from me.
I believe the the Newark Subway is going to the proof on demand system like you said.
It was discussed just recently on Subtalk about the brighter lights on the PCC's and no the lights would not get brighter (if I remember) if the line juice was raised. I think they put in new bulbs or somthing...
Since when did proof of payment begin again?
Tracks 1-2 through 15-16 each share an island platform with the odd track to the left and the even track to the right(leaving NY). Track 17 shares an island with track 18 but the doors are not opened for 18 on this platform, rather 18 is opened on the other side on an island it shares with track 19. Why the strange arrangement with 18 having a choice of platforms.
Andy- are you there?
ps- I enjoyed the LIRR fantrip. My compliments to the Stationmaster at jamaica who assisted our group when the announcer had no record of our trip.
[Tracks 1-2 through 15-16 each share an island platform with the odd
track to the left and the even track to the right(leaving NY). Track 17 shares an island with track 18 but the doors are not opened for 18 on this platform, rather 18 is opened on the other side on an island it shares with track 19. Why the strange arrangement with 18 having a
choice of platforms.]
I don't know why the platforms were built in that manner, it might relate in some way to Penn Station's usage patterns when first built (much more long-distance service than today). It's worth noting that the platform for Track 17 barely counts as a "real" platform. It's quite narrow - certainly not wide enough to accommodate trains opening on both sides - and relatively sharpely curved.
On the west end of track 18, there are a few places where the gap between the train and the platform is very wide. Perhaps it's even wider on the track 17 platform side.
[On the west end of track 18, there are a few places where the gap
between the train and the platform is very wide. Perhaps it's even wider on the track 17 platform side]
I've only been on trains that use Platform 17 a couple of times, but those gaps were fearsome. They were at least as wide as the mini-Grand Canyons found on Track One at Flatbush Avenue.
Murray Hill LIRR stop also 'boasts' huge, wide gaps.
[LIRR Penn Station] Track 17 shares an island with track 18 but the doors are not opened for 18 on this platform, rather 18 is opened on the other side on an island it shares with track 19.
Just for the record ... though it appears never to be done in regular service, track 18 trains can open on the track 17 side if necessary. I was once on a train on track 18 that went B/O. They switched us to a train on 17 and opened the original train on the "wrong" side rather than make us trudge up and down the stairs.
Miracles occasionally happen.
Is there a particular reason why Tracks 18-19 were given sort of a 'grand entrance' from the main concourse? (A much-wider staircase than the other tracks). I should have asked Lorraine Diehl on her Penn Station tour in August, but I didn't think of it.
Also interesting- tracks 20 and 21 have an entrance from the corrdior near K-Mart rather than the side lobby area
They seem to call alot of PW branch trains on tracks 20 and 21.
Also, why is the platform between 18 and 19 so much wider that the others? Is there a similar sized platform on the Amtrack/NJ Transit tracks 1-12?
[ why is the platform tracks 18 - 19 in Penn so wide? ]
I can't answer that definitively, but I know it is LIRR practice to choose tracks for trains based on the loads those trains bear. The very busiest trains end up on tracks 18 or 19, where they can load or unload the fastest.
Tracks 20-21 were, until fairly recently, only 8 cars long, and lighter duty trains with more leisurely loading times often ended up there.
It would be a fair guess that the platforms were designed those considerations in mind.
If you'd like to read an old story. Did I say an old story of the West End Line, see rapidtransit.net.
(Who said the Second Avenue subway would be finished before I updated the site?)
Nice story, Paul - thanks!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
EXCELLENT!!!
Ditto, i.e. well done work.
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for the compliments!
hello all,
i have a thought that i've discussed with friends about what exactly it is that attracts me to the subway. i mean it's loud, it costs money, it smells and there are homeless all over but i don't understand why i like it. I just do. maybe it's the mystery or something like that but i can't put my finger on it. My friend though it was the fact that you get on and it moves you until you get off. but that's not it but it's something. Do you guys have any thoughts?
BTW, i do know how to spell but i thought i'd put a joke in.
Thanx,
Matt
Hey Matt, we can use jokes around here.
Let me preface my remarks with something from Alan
Watts, who was a person who helped popularize a lot
of Eastern philosophy here in the West. He wrote
that at base, we are all very sensitive children,
who have learned to put on the airs of competence
and control and knowledge, so that we can be seen as
respectable adults. But when it comes down to it,
what the hell do we really know?
Your question was what attracts us to trains and
buses? I'm going to try to personalize this as much
as I can, just so that I don't sound like some
academic blowing out some hot air. When I was a kid, I
stood by the front window, and held the door handle
and used it control the train. I was in
control. I had the power. (( When there was a train
crossing in front of us, and I moved the handle to
full power I was acting out my anger to the world
and hoping to kill everyone on my train and the
other train.... just a joke, sort of )) .
So power was an issue. But more down to earth,it
was fun. Or it was less boring than just sitting
and passively being transported.
Even now, riding up front can be scary. When I went
out to Newark on PATH yesterday morning, we were
pulling out of some station approaching a cross over
and there was another train also approaching the
cross over. Despite my knowledge that the trains
were aligned straight head, it looked almost like we
were going to crash. ( Thank god, there wasn't some
kid with a lot of hostility hanging on to the door
handle of the other train.) It's really spooky some
times looking out the front window. If you're on
PATH and sit up front all the way over to the left,
and watch the train go around curves it sure as hell
looks like you're almost hitting the walls. So
scary and fun and control. These are powerful
attractions in the beginning, but after a while you
realize you're not in control, and the train isn't
going to crash, and it would be a lot more
comfortable sitting down...
So what attracts me to standing up front still, or
thinking about R1/9 sounds, or a couple of weekends
ago enjoying riding a B wrong railing it down the
express track on the N. I have spent a lot of my
life by myself, and as a result I have turned
inward to my own sensations. I'm on the train by
myself, and the train, and the motorman, become my
companions. You know Sea Beach Fred said something
recently about being on the Triplex Sea Beaches
barreling down 4th Ave, aware of the power of the
train, but feeling safe because the train was his
friend. That was very poetic...
So I'm alone a lot, and I don't really have to
explain myself to a lot of regular people. If I
want to go down to 12th Ave between 29th & 30th St,
and look at the Greyhounds parked in the lots there,
I do it. If I want to stand around Gate 84 at
Greyhound Departure Level, and just watch the buses
come and go, I do it and hope that the Port
Authority Police don't take me for being too nutty
looking.
Again, I am speaking for myself. Some might say
here's a guy who needs a life. They may say that,
but fortunately I have my virtual reality hearing
aid on and I only hear people saying nice things.
There's more that I could say, but I don't know if
anyone cares to hear. But, like Matt, I would like
to hear other people's thoughts and feelings on the
issue of what attracks us to transit.
I, personally, am a control freak: I do a lot of planning, I like to budget time, funds etc.. I like to have a plan of action---Trains run on a specific route, i.e., the tracks dictate the direction you take. I think that, on some subconscious level, for me , that explains part of my fascination with trains of all types, but especially the subway---I've been drawn to them as long as I can remember, back to the age of 4 or 5. Also, you get to ride on something that goes really fast (or at least used to go really fast) under the ground (sometimes).
Your answer about being a control freak interests me. Initially, being a control freak to me meant being in control of what's happening. And somehow taking a subway ride involves a degree of being controlled by the route itself as well as unforseen circumstances. Being controlled then seemed almost to be the opposite of being in control. But now I'm thinking that for a control freak it is as much a desire not to be out of control of what's happening. So then being in control or being controlled is preferable to being out of control.
Before I turn you into McNuts with more of the last paragraph, I just want to say that I'd liked your answer. It seemed real.
It took me many years to realize how screwed up I actually am, but at least now I know.
There are an awful lot of things that attracted me to trains. Perhaps it was the shunters working the yard down the street from my grandparents' house when I was young; as a little kid those puffing, snorting small-drivered Consolidations were mighty impressive. Perhaps it was the variety of people I would meet when travelling on the Broadway or the North Shore with my mother, or on the Beeliner to Croton-Harmon, change for an electric train to the City. Perhaps it was the ever-changing landscape of Barcelona that I explored via the Metro when I was in high school there, and the people of that wonderful, vibrant city (even under Franco it had a liveliness I have never experienced elsewhere). Trains and streetcars provide a window on the world unlike any other. I can be my solitary, anon_e_mouse self, watching the world go by, watching ordinary people living ordinary lives, observing their public-private moments, or I can interact with the people around me if I choose. The train is part background, part actor, in this journey. It provides a direction, it is the immediate stage, it sets the mood for the quiet drama that is life on board.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You said: " Trains and streetcars provide a window
on the world unlike any other. I can be my
solitary, anon_e_mouse self, watching the world go
by, watching ordinary people living ordinary lives,
observing their public-private moments, or I can
interact with the people around me if I choose. The
train is part background, part actor, in this
journey. It provides a direction, it is the
immediate stage, it sets the mood for the quiet
drama that is life on board. "
I wish I wrote that.. That was poetry. Were you in
the theater? You used many theatrical analogies.
Enough of my pretensions, I'd love to hear
some more of that....
Well, I've been around the theatre much of my life. My mother was an orchestral pianist who performed with the New York City Opera (not the Met) for much of my growing-up years (until arthritis and other problems affected her hands about thirty years ago - she can still play but isn't up to the rigors of regular performances). I acted from sixth grade (my first role was as Snoopy in You're a Good Man, Charlie Brown) through college, and as an adult have been involved in performing degree work in the Masonic Lodge and its affiliated organizations. I was a history major in college and consequently did a lot of writing there, and I've periodically had to do extensive writing (albeit technical in nature) as part of earning a living over the years. I've also been active in choral groups over the years, mostly synagogue choirs or singing a mixture of secular and sacred Jewish music as part of Lashir, the Jewish Community Choir of Princeton, NJ (I sang with them the past three years, but have decided to drop out because it's a 38-mile schlepp each way and I don't drive any more than necessary at night - the eyes don't react to oncoming headlights very well any more). And I love going to shows, although on my budget it's mostly local productions (except for our annual pilgrimage to see Cats).
So I guess some of it has rubbed off!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Oh wow!!! I guessed right!!! I wish I hadn't because my head has just swelled up another inch. I can just barely get through doorways as it is.
Seriously though, thanks for telling a little bit about yourself. Speak to you later, if not sooner. Paul
I think it is a combination of the loss of control you have by being a passenger and the thrill of the speed and "recklessness" you feel sort of like riding a rollercoaster.
eg. the 4 or 5 leaving 138 to 125 or the 2 or 3 zipping along from 14 to just north of Canal.
Just out of curiosity how many of you do enjoy rollercoasters?
Never had the stomach to go on a roller coaster. It's hard enough for me on the Brighton Line going from the Ave. H to Newkirk and vice-versa.
I love coasters with a passion!
I was visiting NYC a couple months ago, and one of the highlights of the trip was taking the F out to Coney Island late one evening and riding the Cyclone -- I really felt like a kid, and even got myself a big bag of cotton candy for the hell of it.
I took the N back into Manhattan, and by this time it was pretty late... Had a whole R68 car to myself most of the trip. :-)
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
David, if I may butt into this. It sounded like a wonderful day and a lot of fun---- up until you had to ride back in an R-68. You're not going to tell us that you enjoyed that, are you???
heypaul wrote:
David, if I may butt into this. It sounded like a wonderful day and a lot of fun---- up until you had to ride back in an R-68. You're not going to tell us that you enjoyed that, are you???
Umm, was I *not* supposed to enjoy the R-68? [grin]
My experience with the NYC subway system is pretty much limited to only a couple trips to NYC and a lot of web-surfing on nycsubway.org... Guess I'm not quite enough of a seasoned railfan to know the difference between the "classic" subway cars and the not-so-classic ones... I was actually hoping to grab a R-110B sometime during my visit, but to no avail.
But hell, I was just happy to be riding a subway system that actually WORKS!! I live in Chicago, and have to put up with the bloated cesspool of sloth and incompetence known as the Chicago Transit Authority every day -- I'm dead serious when I say the MTA runs like a Swiss watch in comparison.
Remember, the CTA is the transit agency that was shocked and appalled to find out that Chicago sometimes gets large amounts of (gasp!) snow during the winter months... Turns out the motors on the 2600-Series cars have a nasty habit of shorting out in snowstorms, rendering a full quarter of the CTA rail fleet out of commission during our little blizzard last January. Who woulda thought... BTW, these are the same people who built a state-of-the art maintenance facility, only to find out at grand opening that the doors were six inches too short for the rolling stock to fit through. But I digress...
Just by way of introduction, my name is David, I'm 24 and an architecture student at the University of Illinois at Chicago. I have a strong interest in all things of an urban nature, especially rapid transit systems. Glad I found my way here.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
The reason the question was raised about the R-68s is because they are notoriously slow. They have to huff and puff just to get up to 30 mph, it seems.
Your comment about the door clearance at the maintenance facility has a familiar ring to it. When our new airport opened in Denver, it was quickly discovered the canopies at the loading docks weren't high enough for semi trailers to fit under; they were about 13 inches too low. Oops!
I'm sure you noticed that New York's subway trains are much, much quieter when running underground than in Chicago. Put it this way: I've never had to hold my ears in New York.
Could you speak up please? I didn't quite hear you. :-)
Interesting comment about the noise the trains make, and that was one of the first things I noticed about the NYC system on my first visit. The motors themselves on the NYC trains seem to be much louder than the ones in Chicago... In NYC, I thought it was interesting how the pitch of the sound increased with the speed of the train. In Chicago, the motors hardly make any noise (although the motors on the new 3200's and some of the 2200's each have sort of a high-pitched whine to them). However, the sounds of the wheels against the track is enough to make your ears bleed, even where the track is straight. This is also why the pitch remains constant while the volume increases with the speed of the train. I'd give anything if Chicago had express trains the way NYC does, but I shudder to think of how many people would go deaf at the local subway stops when the express roars past!
I wasn't aware of that problem with the R-68's. Thanks for filling me in.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Does anyone know WHY Chicago trains are so much quieter?
I was intrigued by the sound of the motors on the 6000-series cars. They would start to rumble once the train got up to around 20-25 mph, and would increase in pitch as the train continued to gather speed.
If you thought the motors in New York were loud, it was even more interesting when the prewar equipment was still around. The spur-cut bull and pinion gears would cause a loud whine at running speed, which in my case was music to my ears.
One theory I've had about the extreme noise in the Dearborn and State St. subways is the way the tunnels were built. They're essentially continuous concrete tubes which act as reverberation chambers. The sound has no place to go. The faster a train is moving, the worse it gets. As for your observation about express noise at a local stop, it could get pretty loud in New York in the olden days. One example which stands out is the northbound platform at 81st St. and Central Park West. An express train would be moving at full speed at that point, and if it happened to be an A train of R-10s, you would get quite an earful. The R-10s were on the noisy side to begin with, and at full speed they made their presence known quite emphatically.
Excellent point about the subway tunnel construction... In NYC, most of the tracks on a given line seem to operate in a single tunnel, seperated by rows of densely-spaced steel columns. In addition, these tunnels are usually 4 tracks wide (at least on the Broadway IRT, the line I used most often) and are rectangular-shaped in section. I think these factors combine to absorb a fair amount of the noise.
In Chicago, as you mention, 99% of the tunnels are round single-track tunnels running parallel to each other, with the occasional crossover chamber. The tunnel walls are poured concrete, which reflects the sound back in every direction.
To get a good idea of what a typical CTA 2600-series train sounds like, find 32 large metal oil drums, and fill each of them about 3/4 full with various nuts and bolts and other assorted metal objects. Then push all 32 drums down a steep rocky embankment. Just add people and some rats, and you've got the Red Line at rush hour.
Before they re-opened the Grand Avenue stop on the Blue Line, the long straight stretch of tunnel between Clark / Lake and Chicago Avenue (even as far as Division on nights and weekends, as the Chicago stop is only open part-time) allowed the trains to reach some incredible speeds, and the noise they created was deafening. During one such trip I was in a particularly adventurous mood and decided to cross between two subway cars while the train was at top speed in this stretch.... I think my ears were ringing for about a week afterwards. lol
The new 3200's seem to be considerably more quiet, in addition to having a smoother ride. Right now there are no 3200's on any of the subway routes, but shortly after the blizzard last winter I rode a consist of 3200's that had been diverted to the Blue Line from the Orange Line to fill in for the incapacitated 2600's. The reduction in noise and vibration was readily apparent. The rehabbed 2600's I've ridden so far on the Red Line also seem to have incorporated some improvements in noise reduction and smoothness of ride.
All in all, I still prefer the sounds of the NYC subway trains... Must be something about the pitch of the motors increasing with the speed of the train, in addition to the hissing of the hydraulic brakes. (No hydraulic brakes on the CTA trains.) Not to mention that "bing-bong" door chime. Having said that, some of the old redbirds seem to have a problem with loudly screeching brakes -- One particular train I rode was downright painful. I may get lynched for saying this here, but I thought the redbirds were sort of gross and decrepit anyway. [ducks for cover]
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
How do the CTA's brakes work??
I've been a bit curious about that myself... I know they don't have hydrualic brakes, but they must use something. I'm assuming some sort of dynamic braking system.
Whatever they use, I know it works because the train operators seem to take some sort of perverse pleasure in slamming on the brakes for no apparent reason, usually while the train is packed full of standing rush hour commuters. Happened twice to me just this evening on my trip home from school.
-- David Cole
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
I believe Chicago's L trains have dynamic brakes. I remember watching the motorman on 6000-series trains, and he would work the brakes in much the same manner as a motorman working SMEE brakes in New York.
Speaking of the 6000-series cars, they were just as deafening in the State St. subway as are the 2600s today. I also rode on the 2400s when they ran on what is now the Red line, and they didn't seem to be as loud in the subway.
I rode on that Blue line stretch you alluded to three years ago before that station was reopened, and the noise level made the R-10s seem like mice. It must have been in excess of 100 decibels.
Yes, New York's subway lines by and large have all tracks in one tunnel. The I-beams between the tracks support the roadway above them, as most lines (in Manhattan, anyway) are close to street level and were built by cut-and-cover. They also look cool as you skip a local station on an express train. The original IRT segments have one distinct feature: there is no crash wall between the express tracks, something which became standard on all subsequently built lines.
Not all! I work on the IND 8th Avenue line and I can attest that there is no wall between any of the tracks!
Also these IND lines have no walls between the tracks: IND Fulton Street, IND Concourse, IND Queens Blvd , Parsons/Archer Extension, IND Crosstown (G),IND 6av, BMT L train, Nassau Street, BMT Broadway Manhattan,IRT (1 North of 145, and South of 42), IRT 7, IRT Lex Local and Express AFTER 59.
Not at local stations, there isn't. That is true. North of 23rd St., for instance, the middle layup track is walled off on both sides, while to the south, there is a wall between the express tracks. On the 7th Ave. straightaway, the crash wall between the express tracks extends into the 28th St. station for a short distance - mainly because the station was extended northward.
While there are gaps between the express tracks in some locations, as a general rule, all Dual Contracts and IND four-track lines have crash walls between the express tracks. Ditto for the Concourse (the express track is walled off on both sides) and Canarsie lines.
The 4th Ave. line from the bridge to 36th St. features curtain walls between all four tracks, not just in the tunnels, but at the local stations as well.
Must be something about the pitch of the motors increasing with the speed of the train, in addition to the hissing of the hydraulic brakes. (No hydraulic brakes on the CTA trains.)
I think you mean air (pnuematic) brakes. Hydraulic brakes are usually found in cars, and hydraulic in general refers to pressurized liquid doing the muscle work; usually, it's so type of 'heavy' oil.
I'm sure that the CTA has air brakes, or some other friction-type brake, since dynamics alone can't hold a train.
-Hank
Thanks for the correction -- I meant air brakes. I'm certain the CTA doesn't have air brakes, but I have no idea what sort of friction brakes they actually use. I'd be curious to find out from somebody who knows more about CTA rolling stock than I do.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
David, I like the sound file you added to one of your earlier messages. Is there a URL I could have for it? I have a page of NYC sounds, and one of the WAVs has the "ding-dong" on it, but it is part of a longer file.
If you can help, let me know.
Thanks.
[Where in Chicago? I am in Wilmette?]
The URL can be found at:
http://www.NthWard.com/subway.wav
(It also plays when you first open up my home page at www.NthWard.com)
I live in Lincoln Park, about three miles north of the Loop. I rode through Wilmette every day for a year on Metra while still living in the north suburbs. Nice town.
-- David
Chicago, IL
www.NthWard.com
Tell me your Website to get the WAV files. Do you have Q car sounds?
You won't get any argument about the general condition of our beloved Redbirds. Although they run well, many of them are dying of cancer. The Bondo Squad has its work cut out.
Hey guys you wanna see incompitent subways come out here to San Francisco CA at least once a week the computer breaks down and we get
stuck for an hour between stations not to mention the incompitent
directors who have gone over budget on the airport extension 3 times
and found out after they dug the station and laid the supports that
it was on unstable ground anyways I can't say pro or con on NYCTA
because I have not ridden it but I hope to change that I miss a real
subway with the steel wheels and the screech as it take a curve
BART is more like an airport shuttle that got outta hand
i love roller coasters. how about a subway roller coaster where they pack u in with a million people turn of the air conditioning and make you stand. why would anyone pay for that? oh wait, we already do.
Matt
Turn OFF the A/C? I would never ride in that!!!
I DO NOT care for roller coasters. End of discussion.
Trains have been in my blood since I was born, it seems. When I was teething, my father would bundle me up in the car in the middle of the night and drive down to the Grand Trunk Western tracks, a mile or two south of where we lived. It didn't take long for a train to go by, and that would settle me down. Some years later, when we would go for a Sunday drive, we'd camp out by the New York Central tracks and wait for a train, waving to the brakeman as the caboose went past. Sometimes, he'd wave back.
My mother's grandparents lived near a railroad station in Eastern Europe, and several family members worked on the railroad back then.
When I was a kid, my mother would drag me to train displays at various department stores. I think she got a bigger kick out of them than I did at the time. My folks bought me a battery-powered train when I turned 3, but my father got tired of running back and forth to buy batteries for it, and they said the next train they would get me would be electric. American Flyer won by default of sorts; my mother figured I wouldn't go Lionel's three-rail track, and besides, she felt Flyer trains looked more realistic. She was right on both counts. Of course, by 1961, when I got that Flyer set, Gilbert was in decline and scale realism had taken a back seat.
My love affair with the subway began in 1965, and in 1982 I got back into Flyer in earnest.
Hey beast rider!!-----it's obvious that the only
rollercoaster you've ever been on in your life is your
Grandma's '72 station wagon.
I love it for all those reasons, dark smelly, crowded and even empty. Where or What else moves MILLIONS of people a day SAFELY and FAST (okay okay GRADE TIMERS not withstanding, it beats Surface anyday).
Flying down 6th Ave 34th to 4th, Homeball Alley, the Signal System and how it works, works pretty well for an almost 100yr old system.
R40 Slants at track speed. The screech at South Ferry when the sprinklers don't work. THE SOUNDS Period.
And so much more.
I ride any public transit at any city I visit, still think NYC has it beat.
Gota run or this would go on an on...
I still say the IND isn't the same without the moaning, groaning, grunting, snarling, and hissing R-1/9s and those rip-roaring R-10s.
Which parts of NJT Rail are electrified and have electrical service? What service patterns exist? (trains skipping stops, inner terminals, trains that don't go to inner terminals i.e. "Princeton Dinky")
Most of these answers can be found at The Official New Jersey Transit Website. There are also a couple of fan sites out there with more information.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
It doesn't work that well, nor does it tell me whether the train I'm using skips any stops or anything. For example, if I choose Madison Square Garbage as my origin and Bay Head as the destination, it would tell me I have to look up schedules from MSG to Newark Penn or Long Branch and from there to Bay Head (and seperately). When I try to find something from Penn (Newark) to BH, it only shows the direct trains, not those that involve connections at LB. I also don't know if there are shuttles on other lines that never make it to Newark, Garbage or Hoboken because I would have to carefully examine each schedule to see which trains don't correspond. They also say nothing about electrification (I only need to know about the Hoboken division and the Princeton dinky).
I'm surprised - there are almost no through trains to Bay Head, and those that are originate in Hoboken. But the connection is a quick across-the-platform at Long Branch so the running time doesn't change much.
The dinky (Princeton Junction & Back) is electric, single track. I'm not aware of any other shuttles on the system.
I guess your best bet would be to go to NYPenn and pick up printed timetables - they've got a huge display of them for the entire system, except the Atlantic City line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I can give you what I know off the top of my head --
North Jersey Coast Line -- Electrified as far as Long Branch, terminals at Bay Head, Long Branch, Matawan and South Amboy
NEC -- Completely electric, terminals at Trenton and Jersey Avenue
Raritan Valley -- Diesel only, not sure about terminals (Raritan and High Bridge, I think)
Main Line / Bergen County Line -- Diesel only, termials at Port Jervis, Suffern and Waldwick
Pascack Valley -- Diesel only, no intermediate terminals
Boonton Line -- diesel only (will be electrified to Great Notch by 2001), terminals at Great Notch, Dover, Lake Hopatcong and Netcong.
Montclair Branch -- electric, no intermediate terminals
Morristown Line -- electric, terminals at Summit and Dover
Gladstone Branch -- electric, terminal at Gladstone and possibly one intermediate, also there may be some trains which only operate from Gladstone to Summit.
Hope this helps...
Chuck
There is one rub..on the NECL and North Jersey Coast (NJCL) they do run some diesels from Newark Penn. (Diesels are not run in the river tunnel.)
On the coast line, the diesels run through to Bayhead from Hoboken or they end at Long branch
What about Hackettstown? That's past Netcong and does not appear to have MidTown Direct service according to the map at Hoboken (Why does a major terminal like that use low platforms?). That is a recent extension, I have a map I picked up at Madison Square Garbage in 1995 that shows service on Morristown/Boonton only as far as Netcong, now both lines extend to Hackettstown.
I believe that electrification extends only as far as Dover. As a result, Lake Hopatcong, Netcong and Hackettstown (I think there's a fourth station in there somewhere) only have diesel service to Hoboken
that station is Mount Olive's International Trade Center. and it would be nice to see a subway from ITC to the World Trade Center
But do those diesls run via Boonton or M&E? Does Midtown Direct service run from Montclair-Bay Street? Or is that just for when the Great Notch connection opens? And I assume the lines out to the north are diesel?
Anyway, I wanted to ask this too, what does DL&W stand for? Delaware, Lackawanna and Western? What lines were owned by Erie and ran to Newport before Hoboken? Which line is the West Shore and who owned that? What other, still extant and now abandoned lines are there in North Jersey?
only m&e electric locos are used on the midtown direct. there is a few gladstone runs also. all others (execpt the boonton line)can change at newark (broad st.
the erie lines are diesels with a transfer station beening built in the swamps. the west shore was the new your central lines. the nys&w also has service to jersey city
also check out this site raildata.railfan.net
>Anyway, I wanted to ask this too, what does DL&W stand for? Delaware,
>Lackawanna and Western?
Or Delay, Linger, Wait.
Though they did do well with their 3kv DC system. I've read that the origionally had plans to wire more of the system, possibly to Scranton, and that a number of bridges rebuilt around the 30's were designed to accomodate it - thus they were looking forward at least.
[listing of NJT electrification and terminals]
Electrification on the LIRR seems to have progressed farther. The non-electrified lines are:
Main line from Ronkonkoma yards to Greenport. There are (far-off) plans to electrify to Yaphank.
Oyster Bay line from East Williston to Oyster Bay.
Pt. Jefferson line from Huntington yards to Pt. Jefferson.
Montauk line from Babylon yards to Montauk. There are (once again far-off) plans to electrify to Patchogue.
Central Branch from Bethpage to Babylon.
Long Island City line (formally a part of the Montauk line) from junction west of Jamaica to Long Island City. Note that a couple of tracks in the L.I.C. yard are electrified, reachable from Hunterspoint Avenue via the Borden Avenue grade crossing.
Some lines seem to run diesel AND electric. I've been on diesels on the Montclair, Raritan Valley, Morristown and Gladstone branches, which are all billed as electric.
The new issue of Planning Magazine has another aggravating article. It seems that the rail freight industry has been growing, with more freight handled by trains rather than trucks. That's good right?
Not if you are a town that has been collecting property taxes on a little used ROW and now find (horrors) lots of trains rolling down it. The article is how communities can ban together to battle the community impact of increasing rail traffic.
Barf.
Tell me about it. There's a short stretch of track down near the NC/SC border that has been inactive since the early '70s, to the point where the tracks were removed but the ROW remained officially intact, clearly marked as RR property, taxes paid, etc. Norfolk Southern has now relaid track and is operating the line as a connector between one of its mains and another major branch that they recently acquired from a bankrupt shortline. (The branch had been SAL trackage and was spun off long prior to the formation of CSX, IIRC.) The newly-relaid connector is carrying about 10-12 trains per day, mostly covered hoppers, and one of the towns through which it passes fought its reopening very hard and continues to fight to have it closed. Never mind that for each train that passes through there are a lot less trucks going to and from the cement plant; never mind that about 100 jobs were created and a couple hundred more preserved because the connector was rebuilt; never mind that the RR refurbished the abandoned station building as their local office. All the townspeople are concerned about are the annoying whistle blasts and the grade crossing being tied up for 3 minutes every couple of hours (emergency vehicles can't get through, etc.). NIMBYs!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How do environmentalists figure in this? I think it is a bit of a stretch to call NIMBYs environmentalists. Sure, they may hide behind that banner...
Environmentalists, or people who call themselves that, advocate some dumb things sometimes. But by and large, at least the smart ones, support rail transport.
David
card carrying environmentalist
(Sometimes NIMBYs hide behind environmentalism, but they are not real environmentalists).
Here in NYC, all NIMBYs hide behind environmentalism, and NIMBY environmentalists are practically the only type we've got. What else are they going to call themselves? How else to you explain "environmental" objections to the redevelopment of NYC's industrial areas -- traffic, etc. What do they want -- more people and jobs to spread to greenfield sites where everyone drives and SUV?
Is there any other place in the country where "environmentalists" oppose development at urban densities in existing urban centers?
Yeah talk about it. I paid a visit to our friendly little "environmental" coalition in Sea Cliff (Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor), to confront them about why we have to drive so far to shop because they have opposed every retail project. Their answer more or less said they'd rather have people drive further (even if it burns more fossil fuels) because they don't want traffic in their neighborhood.
Also, they could care less that most people in this area drive their big SUV's but most of them are driving alone (not carpooling).
And the topper was how they dodged the question of LIRR Oyster Bay Line electrification. They claim "it's not their problem" but yet have been resposible for discouraging LIRR and mass transit use by opposing development and improved parking in areas by LIRR OB line stations.
They will say they don't oppose more markets when questioned about this, mass transit,etc, but they are merely lying to hide the greedy rich snobs who have a strangle-hold on this area's economy.
--------------
Live in Sea Cliff, Glen Cove, or Roslyn and sick of the same
NIMBY's that run the show, let your voice be heard at
http://clubs.yahoo.com/clubs/improveseacliffamdglencove
[I paid a visit to our friendly little "environmental" coalition in Sea Cliff (Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor), to confront them about why we have to drive so far to shop because they have opposed every retail project. Their answer more or less said they'd rather have people drive further (even if it burns more fossil fuels) because they don't want traffic in their neighborhood.]
In other words, they're not worried about creating more traffic as long as it's in someone else's neighborhood. Idiots.
"The new issue of Planning Magazine has another aggravating article. It seems that the rail freight industry has been growing,
with more freight handled by trains rather than trucks. That's good right?"
"Not if you are a town that has been collecting property taxes on a little used ROW and now find (horrors) lots of trains rolling down it. The article is how communities can ban together to battle the community impact of increasing rail traffic."
When I read your posting, I went to get a copy of the most recent (Sept. 1999) Planning so I could read the article in question. My first impression on a quick skim was that the article was not uniformly anti-rail but had leanings in that direction. But when I read the article end-to-end at my desk, I concluded that your characterization of the article as "how communities can ban[d] together to battle the community impact of increasing rail traffic" was unfair.
Yes, the author quotes various municipal officials kvetching about the effects of trains, but it also quotes extensively from a railway spokesman and a pro-rail municipal official. When it states statistics on increased freight traffic, it doesn't accompany the figures with any negative commentary or language that "spins" the rail traffic growth as a bad thing. While the article discusses some measures communities have used against railroads, some of these measures are criticized, and the article is certainly not an explanation or "how to" on stopping rail traffic growth. Believe me, I have both read and written "how to" articles and materials for APA. This article isn't one. (^: It's merely a story about what's going on -- good and bad -- in the municipal planning and regulatory field because of the freight traffic growth.
Disclaimer: I work for the American Planning Association, which produces Planning magazine. But believe me, my views are definitely NOT necessarily those of APA, and vice versa. (^:
weren t the railroadtracks there before the houses in most places?
"Weren't the railroad tracks there before the houses in most places?"
Of course. And the article admits that: "Some cities have reacted to the [increased traffic] by filing lawsuits, some have sought injunctions to stop rail operations on tracks laid in the 19th Century." I don't think that the author is saying that's a good thing. He's just describing what some municipalities are doing.
Don't get the impression that I'm anti-rail because I'm defending an anti-rail magazine article, so that you have to make pro-rail arguments, although "the tracks were there when you bought your house; deal with it" is a damn good one. My point is that the article is not anti-rail. When I first read Mr. Littlefield's posting, I went to get the article with the intention of discussing the article with the author (strictly in a personal capacity; I'm not even in the Publications department, much less in any position of authority). So I sat down to read the article with my pro-rail beliefs and with a predisposition to believe that the article was anti-rail.
Hi everyone I keep hearing that theres a song out there called You Cant Get to Heaven On The Frankford EL. Where can I find this song is it on tape or on CD? I think it was done in 1970. That song is so true nowadays. What a pity.
It's from a Hooters song. Don't know which one off the top of my head -- I'll have to check the CD's.
Remember -- "You can't get to heaven on the Frankford el, 'cause the Frankford el goes straight to....... Frankford!
Whats Hooters? Is it a group? or a collection of songs
The Hooters were a Philly rock band with a huge local following in the 80's. (Their national hit was "And We Danced.") Any record clerk on South St. will know all about them.
Oh, SOOOOOOOO Wrong.
You can't get to heaven on the Frankford El, 'cause the Frankford El goes to 69th St. You can't get to HEEEEAAAAVEN on the Frankford El.
...or, as those of us who misspent our youth in Phila once sang, 'you can't get to heaven on the Frankford El, 'cause the Frankford El goes straight to hell'...
I don't know who wrote or performed this song, but the Hooters certainly didn't do the original, which dates back to the 50's era. I think the Hooters (a local - Phila/Bucks County, that is - band which was popular in the early 80's) may have remade it.
does any one out there know of the musicians in the subway program? like when are the auditions and how you apply and the costs etc?
Here's the website location: Arts For Transit. For more information I suppose you'd have to contact the MTA directly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Tuesday Newsday has a half page article (page 3 by Hugo Kugiya) about our friend Virgial Conway accepting one of those very big (size) checks from Deputy Sect. of Trans - Mort Downey ... $44 million.
Two interesting points:
- Chuck Schumer is now for the LIRR access to Grand Central so long as they also do the 2nd Ave subway sometime in the future.
- The check only mecomes REAL if MTA board poneys up it's share of the money for both projects.
Mr t__:^)
Yeah, but how long in the future- does 5000AD qualify?
How about 1AR?
-Hank :)
OK, what does AR stand for?
After Rudy
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I seriously don't see what the MTA had against a fuill length 2nd ave line. Heck, even the AAA has come out in support of it. And we all know what the AAA thinks of mass transit!!
News Flash - Today the MTA board has voted to approve their portion of the money for both projects. I'll leave it to others to report what specifically they acted on.
Mr t__:^)
I think it's what the MTA could afford right now. And 1/2 a loaf is beeter than none.
--Mark
... um, BETTER, too :)
--Mark
They aren't proposing half a loaf for the city. They are proposing STUDYING half a loaf for the city and digging a few holes, while providing the whole load for Long Island. Now, if they proposed and provided financing for building the entire northern segment in this plan, that would be different.
Does anyone know when/if they are having the croton harmon open house?? any info will be appreciated.
October 16th I think. call up Metro-North, the customer service people there *do* know about it.
Yes, It is the 16th
How exactly do you get involved with the open house? do you need to buy tickets to go or just show up. I'm really interested in going to it and since the Hoboken Transit Fest was cancelled due to renevations at Hoboken terminal I really want to go. Reservations? buy tickets?
Just show up. Brian
9/30/99
"just show up.Brian"
But show up with a camera and film,you won't be disappointed. Arrive early !
Bill Newkirk
Anybody know how to get to Croton-Harmon shops by car? Thank you!
Take the Train it is faster, and you are going to a Railroad Open House, and beside parking in Croton Sucks. I know I use it when I go to my brothers, and have to drive there to take the train. By PERMIT ONLY
I am aware of that, but the expense is high since it is me and my 2 sons, and possibly a relative. I do know that some people do drive there so there is a way to get there! And, I think they make allowance for visitors driving there without a parking permit.
Take the Taconic North, There will be a exit, saying Croton, follow the signs, it is off 9N. but maybe since it is on a Saturday there will be paid parking at the station. Also check out Lycos Maps on the internet. They will give you directions to print out
10/04/99
I don't know about that. On Saturday while waiting for the Lightning Striped FL-9's at Croton North to pass,another railfan told of receiving a $20.00 ticket for parking in a permit area. And this was on a Saturday! BE CAREFUL WHERE YOU PARK !
Bill Newkirk
I can attest to this as well, I have recieved parking tickets from Croton Harmons finest myself. I luckily fought the ticket in court and won since there were no signs,( It had fallen down ). The best place for photographs in that area is the road leading to a small state part on the river. If you go down Senasqua Rd.past the station there is a crossing go over the tracks and turn left , there is parking back there and no worries about parking tickets.
Hope this helps
Steve
The 16th, huh ....
Hmmm, what's a railfan to do? It conflicts with this ....
On Saturday, October 16, TMNY and the National Railway Historical Society are sponsoring a trip using NYC subway equipment that hasn't seen passenger activity in quite some time.
In the lineup: SBK Whitcomb diesel #9, which will be hauling an IND flat car and IND/BMT R-16 #6398, which has been undergoing restoration. The R-16 will have full electric power courtesy a jumper to the diesel's generators.
The trip will run down the Museum's trackage to Kingston Point Park and then up into Kingston via trackage that has never been used for passenger service.
The rest of the museum collection will of course be on display.
Visit the TMNY web site at http://www.mhrcc.org/tmny/ for more information.
Has anyone signed up for this? If so, how?
--Mark
None of use have seen the plan, and the newspaper accounts have the detail and accuracy of, well, newspaper accounts.
1. Will the 2nd Avenue subway be built through to an area south of the 63rd St tunnel, with the full interchange with the 63rd St Line, as part of the LIRR project? Or will be faced with "sorry, but we'll have to tear up 63rd again and disrupt LIRR service" if we want to extend the 2nd Avenue line south in the future?
2. If they are going to run the 2nd Avenue Line over to 125th and Lex, have they considered tying in to the Pelham Line and building a turn around for the Lex Local? You'll get a lot more Bronx riders off the Lex if they could stay on a train with limited stops, then if you require them to get off the #6 and do an inconvenient transfer. As discussed previously, the Pelham line could probably handle B division cars.
I really don't know what the purpose is to have the new line terminate at 125th Street and Lexington Avenue. Why not 125th Street and 2nd Avenue? Isn't there a population of people who can benefit from that line there? It just doesn't make any since to me.
What does everyone think?
N Broadway Local
Actually, 125th/Lex makes more sense.
The c.1949 plan et seq. called for connecting the 2nd Avenue either to the Pelham Line express track or Pelham Line all tracks.
The inherent problem with that plan is that, if the Pelham express tracks only were hooked up to 2nd Ave., you were dealing with a peculiar service arrangement because of the different IRT and BMT/IND profiles.
OTOH, if you made the entire Pelham Line BMT/IND, you denied Pelham users any chance of Lexington service and you stood to isolate 3 Ave/138th St. station.
Bringing the 2nd into 125th/Lex eliminates the isolation of 3/138 problem, and still allows Pelham riders to transfer to Lex, in the event Pelham is connected to the 2nd.
The c.1949 plan et seq. called for connecting the 2nd Avenue either to the Pelham Line express track or Pelham
Line all tracks.
The inherent problem with that plan is that, if the Pelham express tracks only were hooked up to 2nd Ave., you
were dealing with a peculiar service arrangement because of the different IRT and BMT/IND profiles.
I believe Pelham trains would have terminated at Hunts Point Avenue, so there wouldn't have been joint IRT/2nd Ave service on the Pelham El.
--Mark
Is the Viaduct big enough to accomodate BMT/IND standards is my next Question.
The entire IRT system is capable of handling BMT/IND equipment except the oldest Contract I and II Lines.
Oh, and the Steinway Tunnels, or Times Square-Flushing would probably have been converted to BMT 50 years ago.
I don't think the Steinway tunnels were converted to BMT clearances ...
--Mark
No, I meant to add the Steinway Tunnels to Contract 1 and 2 lines as not using BMT clearances.
Otherwise, I opined, the Times Square-Flushing would have been converted to a BMT Line 50 years ago.
Weren t the Steinway Tunnels originally built for Streetcars not the subway, That is why they are narrow IRT size, and I agree with Paul, they would have been convirted to BMT before WWII
Yes, Steinway tunnels were actually used by Steinway trolleys, which had a loop (still extant in part, I believe) at Grand Central.
Did they ever run?
Actually, I'll correct my previous statement. Trolleys did run (after a fashion) but they were not Steinway trolleys.
Special all-steel trolleys were purchased by the IRT (which controlled the NY&LI, which was to operate the line) for operation in the tunnels. The close clearance in the tunnels required that the trolleys be operated from an overhead third rail while in the tunnels. This third rail was contacted by a little pantagraph between the trolley poles.
The first successful run was September 21, 1907. Many people rode the cars which shuttled between Van Alst and Grand Central, but these were apparently invited guests and there was never revenue service.
In less than a month, it began apparent that there was no valid franchise to operate the line and the city forced it close.
Extensive information about the tunnel is on this site.
Bringing the 2nd into 125th/Lex eliminates the isolation of 3/138 problem, and still allows Pelham riders to
transfer to Lex, in the event Pelham is connected to the 2nd.
It also offers those people who transfer to the Lex at 125th St from Metro North another option of getting to points south, rather than use the overcroweded Lex. I have no idea how many people make this transfer.
--Mark
Actually, population-wise 125th and Lex is a good location with a lot of pedestrian and vehicle traffic. 125th and 2nd is close to the entrance of the Triborough Bridge and sees considerably less activity. This is from my observations on visiting the area a couple of times and noting the local activity.
Wouldn't it be better to cut across 125th Street (possibly St. Nicholas Avenue or Broadway) then to be sent to the Bronx? It will connect to the major lines. Then, the other extension could go straight up Second Avenue into the Bronx via 3rd Avenue. Stops will be from 116th Street: 125th 2AV, 138th 3rd AV (6 6exp), 149th 3rd AV (2/5), etc.
N Broadway Local
I suggested this in a long post about 1 month ago, with two of the five 2nd Av branches to go up the old 3 Av el, with one turning west after Fordham Plaza en route to Riverdale, the other turning east to Co-op City via Gun Hill Rd.
Nick
Actually that's an interesting idea. It probably won't be seen though, because 125th Street literally has tons of crosstown bus service already, so unless someone decides it's more practical to travel by subway and is willing to tear up 125th St, the buses will remain the major mode of public transportation.
Is that location (125th/2nd) nothing more than a bus depot, or is that (126th/2nd)?
Nick
There's a large project development on First and Second Avs this line can serve.
Check out http://www.lirr.org/planning/mesa/index.html for some of the alternative designs that they are looking at so far.
-- Kirk
I just went over to the page cited, and it is **very** interesting. It raises two questions im my mind, though.
1) Both alternatives that envision building a Second Avenue Subway involve new subway tunnel only from the northern terminal to the 63rd Street tunnel, where the trains of the new line will then proceed along the existing Broadway subway, sharing the tracks and stations with the N and R lines. I understand that they are doing this to minimize the cost and that even a new subway limited to the Upper East Side will still relieve congestion on the Lexington subway. And they do state that they would preserve the option of connecting to a 2d Avenue subway south of 63rd at some point in the future (presumably designing the merge with the N & R so that a south-of-63rd tunnel would not be blocked). But a Second Avenue tunnel running through from 125th to the financial district is what most people envision when one hears "Second Avenue Subway" and this will seem like a half-measure to a lot of people.
2) They include plans of a typical subway station on the new part of the line. I thought they were generally well-designed, but they had a few oddities. Public washrooms? (Really not so much!) An office for the station-master (not the same as the station agent's booth, the employee washroom, or the employee locker room)? And no space for a concession stand? Personally, I suspect that the space alloted for public washrooms will become a concession stand before plans are finalized. But what need is there for a station-master's office?
If you are from Sheepshead Bay you may have the answer to a question that I have been wondering about for some time. There used to be an exit into a small parking area off Belt Parkway very near Sheepshead Bay. The parking area was identified as Plum Beach. It was a small area as I remember it with room for perhaps two dozen cars. There was a building with restrooms and a concession food stand. At one time there was even a mini-boardwalk there but a storm during the days of WW-2 destroyed it and it was never replaced.
In those days before A/C it was a great place to go to cool off from the heat in the evening. Is it still there?
Karl. When I saw the subject of your post, I thought you were going to ask me if I'm crazy? But you know the answer to that one. Yeah, Plum Beach is still there. The bike path that runs from Sheepshead Bay to Flatbush Ave and beyond is still there and within the last two years, it was repaved. There still is a building at Plum Beach with rest rooms, but I'm not sure if I've seen a concession stand in recent years. Over this last summer people go there to fish, sun bathe, and have barbeques. I think the water's is supposed to be polluted at that spot, so I don't think they allow swimming. Karl do you live in New York still? If you don't, and there's anything you'd like to see current photographs of, let me know and I'll be happy to go on a little photo shoot and I'll snail mail you a copy. I'll be happy to be a roving ( and raving ) reporter for any unfortunates who have left Brooklyn. Anything reasonable. Just don't ask for any pictures off the top of the Brooklyn Bridge. From the pedestrians path I can accomodate, as I frequently ride back from Manhattan over the bridge. Paul
There was no swimming at Plum Beach in my time either because of pollution. It must have been polluted forever.
Thanks for the offer on the pictures, but after reading some of the posts here in recent months, I guess that I am better off remembering things the way they used to be, and not the way they look now.
I left NY in Sept 1957 and had occasional weekends back visiting relatives up till 1982. My relatives are all deceased now so there is no one left to visit.
Yeah, Plum Beach is actually very nice these days. Alot of bucks were put into it in the last couple of years and many Russian immigrants sunbathe there.
One oddity though: the beach itself resides within the confines of Gateway National Park (US Dept. of the Interior). What I have heard is that whenever there is a problem of cleaning the beach or fixing something like a water founation, etc, there is the usual buck passing between NYC Parks' Dept. and Gateway. The jurisdication is split between the two. Supposedly the beach area -- sand dunes and the waterway are Gateway -- the asphalt areas including the small bathhouse and parking is care of NYC parks.
As per the Friday's Chief:
TRAIN OPERATOR - 8 eligibles between Nos. 20 and 819 on List 4562 and Nos. 1 and 8 on List 7527 for any of 40 jobs at NYC Transit.
800 for 40 slots??? I'm begging to believe you guys.....(about TA Training)
I know that a class has gone in to training already. I believe it was 3 weeks ago now. They are still concidered provisional as the test wasn't certified. They were however names taken off of the proposed list.
Did the Chief say the test was certified??
And I believe the test number is 9501. So I don't know what lists the other two are.
Later,
Chris
What was in the Chief was in my first post. I think you can only call from a certified list?
Mr. Professional has a good answer...
List doesn't have to be certified for a provisional appointment, and all those hired so far are provisional until the list IS certified. Then they are permanent. Less than a year and they must complete probation.
One correction: They must also have passed the test. Once the list is certified, if there are provisional appointees who have not passed the test, they must be terminated.
S'cuse me, I figured most of our fellow subtalkers were smart enough to know that as a given.
In 1994 over 100 Car Inspectors were hired provisionally. After the test was given and the results certified, it was found that some had not passed the test. It was not clear to many people in transit that these people should be terminated, even after a year on the job.
Steve, then why are two current RTO superintendants that were part of the roster of the 97 provisional TSSs that were demoted back to their former title back in 1993? One was on the A line and one is at Concourse currently. Lets try to figure out how the TA negates Civil Service to suit their own needs.
Harry, I was on the interview panel for one of them. Perhaps if you were to read a job posting for a manager's job, the technicalities of the requirements might be appreciated. The job requirements typically read something like this:
Five years of experience in the transportation field, two of which must be at the supervisory level......
So technically, if the applicant has the 5 years of experience and two of them were at the supervisory level (whether it be permanent or provisional), the applicant has the required experience. Just as a matter of clarification, the one person I am familiar with, did subsequently pass another TSS test. In addition, he is quite a competant manager as he was a competant TSS.
If that's the case, I should be general superintendent of the IND. I have over 13 years of wide ranging experience in this industry. But I couldn't even get a T/O's job because of the political B.S. here. Merit? Hah! A** kissing is more like it.
TA is perfect example of it's not what you know but who you blow!
T/O job is Civil Service but my job is not. If you want to be a manager, become a supewrvisor for a few years and take your shot. You can't pitch in the big leagues if you don't pitch in the minors.
I agree. Work your way up as I did in my company.
BTW, Sandy Koufax never pitched in the minors, but that's a different story.
If you are talking about P.S., I agree. He to my knowledge was a good train operator, and in my opinion a good TSS. My understanding was he was bumped back to T/O and filed suit to get the TSS title back. My beef is that the other person hired from provisional status to supt. was a Nincompoop who although may have had experience really spent most of his time shining Nat Ford's shoes while keeping the console operator's chair warm in Control. I always had respect for the zone trainmasters and the Motorman Instructors because so few of them existed, you know they knew their jobs. Ever wonder where the title "Chief Motorman Instructor" went? The TA wouldn't have the problems today if they just left EVERYONE alone. Including school car $$$. Now that the TA is enforcing the yard rate pay clause in the contract, wouldn't you think it would be a monetary incentive to keep the new guy in the yard for at least the 231 days he would need to get the first raise? NAAH! Let Joe Hornman and his sickle bar friends on the 13th Floor push T/Os out with no practice in the yard onto a train with a thousand people. In the '80s when the press branded us as "Cowboys" we kept sinking the trains into the ties on slowdowns and got not one apology when bean counters said "it must be the tracks". No one will ever benefit from Mass Transit when wannabee CEOs replace chairmen in an outfit where safety costs big $$$.
Yes, I was referring to P.S. who I am again fortunate enough to be working with.
The odd numbers are because many of the names are already appointed provisional.
Does New York City put a high priority on it public image these days? How well do they response to passenger complaints and delayed service? Or do they give the impression that they care to the public but do nothing about it?
Is there a response this posting?
I don't believe that the NYCTA is particularly concerned about its public image. As it's a monopoly, it would be hard to imagine otherwise.
When they did this, why were the numbers #5201, #5480 and #5481 skipped?
Was it to conform to the original contracts which started at even numbers instead of odd numbers?
Is Car #6207 truly a "B" car disguised as an "A" car? The book claims that a hostler was installed on #6207, which I assume does its usual rounds on the G Line as part of a 6-car unit there.
How hard is it to rebuild a "B" car to an "A" car (or vice versa) on the R44 and R46s? I remember that it was done at least once to an R32 (and thus renumbered as #3348....argh!!!!! Why not resurrect an even # which was already scrapped????)
Since #5282 is now dead, and probably #5283 will meet the same fate....
I will probably be bashed for re-surrection of dead numbers....but...
Renumber #5479 to #5201 and then perhaps re-mate #5201 to #5202, etc... And then renumber the #5477-#5478 pair to #5282-#5283...if old #5283 is to be scrapped also.
In this case, the R44 would be renumbered as #5201 to #5476, leaving vacancies for #5477 to #5481, which can be accomplished by renumbering #6207 to #5481 and removing its hostler. Then cannibalize #6258 and rebuild this car to a "B" car, and renumber this one #5477...Then, renumber #6256 to #5480 and renumber #6205 to #5479 and #6254 to #5478 , then put those four together. In which case, #5481 can be paired to #6202-#6203-#6204. Then re-pair #6206 to #6252. (Sorry if this causes a multitude of mis-matched sets or pairs)....
This may be crazy, but this is one way to harmonize the entire car # sets...
Nick
I'll answer one of your questions.
"Is Car #6207 truly a "B" car disguised as an "A" car? The book claims that a hostler was installed on #6207, which I assume does its usual rounds on the G Line as part of a 6-car unit there."
Car 6207 is a 'B' car. When originally overhauled, all of the B cars (except those that came backed linked in 4-car units) had Hostlers. When the remaining AB units were linked in Coney Island the remaining hostlers were removed. Since 6207 is the only 'B' car not linked at both ends it is the only one with a functional hostler.
I'll handle the R32 part: If the last digit is even that car has the convertor, if it is odd that car has the compressor. After GOH, 3659 had no mate. Later, it beame necessary to retire 3620 due to a bent frame. Simply stated, since 3659 was going to be mated to 3549 (the mate of 3620), you can't have 2 marrried compressor cars! So, 3659 had its' compressor pulled and a convertor was installed. For the sake of consistency, 3659 needed a number change. 3348 (scrapped R10 number) was availiable. As for the R44's the total number of GOH'ed cars by CI was not divisible by 4: 2 cars were left over. Not all R44's were GOH'ed as some were in such poor shape it just wasn't feasable.
How many R44's were scrapped during the GOH?
I posted a list of R-44's that were never overhauled. Dave has it elsewhere on the site. I suggest you check it out.
Thanks.
The reason for the omission of #5201 is twofold:
1. The R68A contract began its series ODD, with #5001, and ended with #5200.
2. NYCT engineering decided to keep the R44 numbering sequence - even(0)-odd(+1)-odd(+3)-even(+2) intact, so they began with the next available EVEN number: #5202. This left #5201 out in the cold.
It has been reported to me that #5282-3 have been sighted recently - no doubt a renumbering of some sort; only sighting by myself or confirmation by someone familiar with the 207th Street operation can verify this.
Wayne
That is bloody murder!!!!!!
They should have resurrected #3592, #3620, #3668 or #3766 (and probably #3616)....
#3348 was an example in poor taste of renumbering for me. Looked like an R10 posing as an R32....blech!
Why #3659? Was it randomly picked?
Nick
Actually, it all goes back to #3620 and his frame problem. MKCo found themselves short an even-numbered unit during GOH due to #3620 being out of service. #3658 had probably already been overhauled and wound up mated to #3471. So #3659 was an extra odd numbered unit, and as a result, it was converted from "she" to "he". Why did they pick #3348? It was available. I believe #3620 is still sitting idle at CI Yard; don't know whether or not he got his GOH. #3348 is a Phase I rebuild
and his mate is #3549.
Current unit #3669 was formerly #3668; the original #3669 impaled herself on the curtain wall in Malbone Street Portal on December 1, 1974 after splitting the switch.
Wayne
3620 did go through the GOH program. The accident the car suffered didn't occur until some time after the car returned. I have seen the car sitting around, with sections boarded up with wood. Other than that, I'd say the car was still in tact!
-Stef
Is it unusual to have a station named for a commercial business. Did the business pay for the station or the trackage?
Even Republic (now gone) could be a neighborhood name, or did they pay for that station?
Are there other stations named after a present or former business?
The Country Life Press station was built in 1911 and was named for the book factory that had just been built across the street by Doubleday. I'm not sure if it was paid for by Doubleday.
For some pictures, go to http://www.lirrhistory.com/hempsta.html
Your question about stations named after private companies- I recently saw an old timetable of the old Clinton Shuttle line which started at Country Life Press and there was a station which the schedule called A&P. By the way, as a really young kid my grandparents used to take me to their home in Bklyn via the Hempstead Line and I couldn't understand why there was only one track there at C.I.P. I was positve there was an opposite direction track and platform somewhere a few blocks away. I also thought both stations were identical because it looked the same whichever direction you were going. But I was only about 4 or 5. I was finally convinced that it was only one track last year at 45!!!!!
It doesn't seem inappropriate to name a station for a business if that business is the major destination there.
Republic station was at Rt. 110. If it were named for its location, it might have been East Farmingdale.
Another station named for a business: Grumman. If you ever saw the location, it could hardly be called anything else.
Does Southampton College count?
Stations have always been named to satisfy real estate developers. Examples: Brighton Beach, Fiske Terrace on the Brighton Line. Pleasant Plains on the SIRT. I'm sure others can think of many more.
[re LIRR stations named after businesses]
Union Hall station was named after a nearby labor union hall. And let's not forget Shea Stadium and Belmont Park :-)
Its funny but on L.I. the Highway/Parkway signs NEVER mention any private companies. (although they should) On the Meadowbrook it just says "shopping mall" at Roosevelt Field and when Roosevelt Raceway was open it just said "Raceway". However in the city they mention private names on the highways such as "Douglaston Golf Course", "BelmontPK or Aqueduct Race Track", "Bronx Zoo", etc.
Republic Station at the corner of Rt 110 and Conklin Street (Hempstead
Tpke) was named for Republic Aircraft. RA was a competitor of Grumman into the late 80's and had a large manufacturing complex of buildings at that corner. The property was either sold or abandoned by Fairchild-Republic. It now is home to a multi-plex cinema and a large shopping center after a long eviromental cleanup from all the chemicals that were used in producing aircraft. Just to the south is still Republc Airport.
The Town of Babylon is doing a massive road construction project there, and eliminating that nasty "S" curve in the road so that Conklin St. will run directly over to New Highway. Supposedly that "S" was built into the facility so that German spies would not be able to get off premises too quickly.
Paul, was Republic Station where the stairs go up to the railroad trestle on the E/S of 110 just North of Hempstead Tnpk? I always wondered if that was a station. If it was, when was it discontinued?? (I very rarely took the LIRR East of Hicksville) I thought that if there was a station there my wife (who doesn't like to drive) could take my son to Adventureland which is just a little north.
[Paul, was Republic Station where the stairs go up to the railroad trestle on the E/S of 110 just North of Hempstead Tnpk? I always wondered if that was a station. If it was, when was it discontinued?? (I very rarely took the LIRR East of Hicksville) I thought that if there was a station there my wife (who doesn't like to drive) could take my son to Adventureland which is just a little north.]
I trust Paul won't mind my answering for him ...
Anyway, those stairs indeed lead up to the abandoned Republic station. On the north side of the track, the low-level concrete platform remains, now considerably cracked and overgrown. There's also a small shelter-type structure. Not much if anything remains on the south side.
As far as I know, Republic station was closed when the Ronkonkoma line was electrified in the middle 1980s. That was about the time the Republic aircraft factory, just to the south of the station, closed down. Many of the factory buildings have been demolished to make way for shopping centers, some of which are still under construction. A few old factory buildings remain, in completely decrepit condition.
Thanks, Peter. Funny thing, I remember other stations that were closed even before that, such as Woodhaven or Union Hall St but never travelled E/O Hicksville (or Bellmore on the South shore) that much.
For what it's worth, if we were in an alternate universe, one in which the LIRR were interested in opening new stations rather than closing existing ones, Republic would be on the top of everyone's list for reopening. Demolishing the remaining factory buildings would free up ample space for a park-and-ride facility with easy access off Route 110. A largely unused intermodal facility just east of the station would provide space for short turns. And there's no doubt that a new station in the area is sorely needed. Farmingdale, about a mile to the west, has no available parking. Not counting Pinelawn Cemetery, there next station to the east, Wyandanch, is quite some distance away, and many people probably are reluctant to use it because of the surrounding neighborhood.
Not only would it open up more parking, people could use it to go to the Multiplex in front of the shopping center. Also you could tie in the Suffolk Transit (S-1 Amityville to Halesite Route) bus since it goes up into SUNY Farmingdale College and the Office Parks to the north.
Great Idea!!!!
On SEPTA's R5 to Doylestown, there is (or was) a station called Link Belt in Bucks County. Since there's no sign of a community by that name on the map, one would have to assume that's the name of a business served by the line.
There's also Brick Church on NJT's Morris & Essex line. It's in East Orange. Brick Church was a venerable appliance dealer long associated with the defunct Times Square Stores.
If you look at some of the larger heavy construction equipment, particularly large cranes they say 'Link-Belt" as the manufacturer. Possibly they had an office or manufacturing facility near the station?
"Are there other stations named after a present or former business?"
Here in Chicago, on Metra's Milwaukee West line there is a station called Mars right next to the factory of the M&M/Mars Company.
One could also count Arlington Park on the Union Pacific Northwest line, next to the Arlington International Racecourse (nee Arlington Park Racecourse), and Ravinia Park (UP North line) on the grounds of Ravinia Park, an outdoor venue for classical and jazz music during the summer months. Incidentally, both Ravinia Park and Arlington Park are served by special trains on concert nights and race days respectively.
And one could consider Great Lakes (on the UP North), across from the main entrance to the Great Lakes Naval Training Center, to be named after a "business" as opposed to a municipality, neighborhood, or street.
I don't think it was named after a particular business, but what was the thinking behind the station name "Metropark" on the Woodbridge/Edison border in NJ?
Park and ride to the Metropolis. "Iselin", its former name, didn't have that charming a ring to it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You're thinking "Metropark" and the neighborhood is still called Iselin.
-Dave
True, the neighborhood is, as was the station for many years. I'm simply speculating about the origin of the station's more recent name; it was one of the first to boast a major park-and-ride.
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
I had always assumed that the Iselin station was actually about 2 blocks north of the current Metropark station (on the other side of the GSP). There's an old low-level platform there (on the southbound side, at least) and stairs down to the street.
Metropark is a true park-and-ride facility (especially now that there's sufficient capacity with those huge decks), complete with its own exit ramps from the GSP and no easy pedestrian access.
As it stands now, the residents of Iselin get all the hassles and congestion of having a major commuter/Amtrak station in the middle of their neighborhood, but they can't walk to it in under 15 minutes.
I'm on the road this weekend so I don't have access to my library to verify this, but I think we're both right. There was a smaller station nearby that was the original Iselin station. However, there wasn't room at that location for platform extensions, so a new Iselin station was built at the present location. Some time later the station was renamed Metropark.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Thanks for the info. I lived in the area from 1989 to 1991 and wondered what train service was like before the days of Metropark.
Do you recall if there were there also stations at Colonia (near the golf course on Rt. 27) and in Menlo Park? I remember staircases from the street to the tracks in both areas?
Chuck
I wasn't living in the area at the time so I don't know for sure, but I believe that back in the '40s there was a station in Menlo Park. I'll check my library later and see if I can find more information. Colonia may also have had a station, I simply don't know.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a 1961 Railway Guide; and shows that a few of the Pennsy's New Brunswick locals stopped there, but not very much else.....
Does anybody have any sources for any scrap cars!!! redbirds any R-types.
Iam looking to get any parts etc 1/2 1/4 body full etc.
Or any front end body parts body signage ( front header with motormans cab )seats,lighting,.
Thanks advance for any info...
Frank.......
Naporano Iron and Metals in the Ironbound Newark N.J. Foot of Hawkins Street under route 9 or the Doremus Av exit on the Turnpike. 973-344-4579 and the fax 973-344-8155. On the websites I found since they took over Nimco Shredding in 1998 that their stocks look very appealing due to income from bus contracts. They crush and shred 1500 buses a year and recycle locomotives and freight cars. They turned over 8 Amtrak Heritage coaches in as little as as month. In my railslamming days I noticed turnovers of 15 cars a month and will probably get the bulk of the LAHT car contracts due to their accessability with the NY Cross Harbor and South Brooklyn Railroad. I can't wait to see them rip the skins off them redbirds like a knive through fish guts. I hope they get all 1400+ cars left so my stocks can go up. When I went the to see the R-30s get scrapped, I watched them drop a ten ton wrecking ball on them and didn't shed a tear. I wish they would make a HardHat Harry's Real Life Destruction Equipment for Kids tape. Hope the address helps and long live Joe Naporano!
Hey Harry, how are you doing? When I read the end of your post, I thought of a scene from Batman with Jack Nicholson. Nicholson was playing a real maniacal screw ball. The good guy in the movie described some young person to Nicholson, and told him about all the horrible things this young kid had done. Nicholson said something like : "I'm beginning to like this kid already."
From your description of the destruction of the R-30's ( which was kind of a bland but not vicious car ) and the joy you took it watching it happen, I'm beginning to like you already. I'm not sure if that will make you feel good or bad. But you didn't pull any punches with how you felt, plus you had an excellent idea for an entertaining children's tape.
Paul Im fine and thanks for asking! If you can remember the favorite pillow that resembles the neighborhood bully or the picture of the ex girlfriend you put on the dartboard, then you will see where I come from when I see Joe Hoffman on TV explaining a train wreck or Al O'leery telling new yorkers why they should pay more for less service.
As a rep I see many I have worked with lose their jobs and suspended for BS reasoning. Poorly trained personel with no concept of train operation are being suspended and dismissed at a rate 50 times worse then those ten years ago. It is to no surprise when the TA is humiliated like the R-110 fiasco that I break out laughing, just like the pillow or dartboard. I love my job as a train operator but I hate the bastards I do it for. I wish they would make a video of the destruction of the MTA label affixed to an RTS bus or R-17. Better yet, I like to make a video tape of my visits to worksites on safety inspections to show New Yorkers what hell they will endure when they apply for a job at NYC Transit.
I'll be happy when they hit those R44's with the wrecking ball!
Actually Flame Thrower
Me too!!!
The ULTIMATE scrap for FUN experience is at St. Louis Auto Shredding Co. in (where else) St. Louis. They have a shear capable of turning a locomotive into fist sized balls of steel in 1 hour. Actually, I would like to see Pentrex or somebody produce a video of this operation for the railfan market. RECYCLE TODAY FOR A BETTER TOMORROW. Besides, most railfans couldn't care less about saving equipment, they're into media based entertainment with a rail theme and don't want to get their hands dirty actually preserving something
Yeah, you said it John. Most rail fans only care about the equipment as far as the next slide they can shoot. Getting someone to come up and get involved? Ha! Fair weather rail fans!
I care about the equipment. If I had the money, I'd buy my own subway car.
Why buy? You can get involved for next to nothing at any one of the local museums. Every Tuesday Mike Hanna has his crew of voulenteers at Coney Island. Or come up to Kingston and work on an R-4, Lo-V, or an R-16. Branford has an electrified main, or just voulenteer at the NYCTM.
I don't see no reason why you can't. Do you have the money to spend? Go out and do it, regardless of what anyone else here says.
Unfortunately, it'll be impossible to save 1400 Redbirds, but it's just as well they be disposed of, since they're rotting beyond belief. Ripping "the skins off a redbird" sounds sadistic, but it's a matter of fact.
One Redbird for preservation is sufficient for me. Given the opportunity, I'd go out and get one myself. The question of the day seems to be is where would I put my piece of property? I'd like it to be fully functional.
-Stef
Well, Frank, I see you got a series of less than helpful
responses. When the redbird fleet goes to scrap, various
rail nostalgia dealers will probably cut deals with whomever
gets the scrap contracts to salvage souveniers. You'll probably
find small items such as builder's plates and number plates
available at ERA meetings, on Ebay, through Whistle & Rollsign
mailorder, etc., for a few years after that. As for a cab, um
where would you put it?
Hey Jeff
I have 9+ acres of land upstate NY that I have plenty of room for anything soo far. we have a reck room (Billards room ) for our
train hobby that we would like to increase .
thanks for the info.
The man asked for a 1/4 car with cab. I think I helped him as nice as a safety rep with a grudge against the MTA logo could do. Besides We'd all like to do well in the stock market, wouldn't we?
Today I decided to take the Lower Montauk line to Long Island City via the LIRR C3 train in the morning (leaves Jamaica at 08:11). I got off the subway at Atlantic and bought a ticket from the machine, I had to buy a bottle of water to get smaller bills for the machine because it would be faster than waiting in line. After getting my ticket, the train to Jamaica (arrives 08:07 departs 07:50 nonstop) was about to leave, so in my rush, I forgot to get my $1.75 change and receipt. After getting to Jamaica, I had to buy another ticket with $5.50 in SINGLES! because I traded one of my fives to the person before me at the machine at Flatbush so she could speed it up. Just my luck, the last bill was the one that didn't want to go in, I had to use another. This time I got my change and receipt and had to run to make the 8:11. I didn't know the 8:14 used bilevels until I saw it arrive at L.I.C. After all that, I found it enjoyable, even though I had to go through the whole train at L.I.C (I boarded in the rear) and then back through the station (I got to see the sights) and I didn't get to hear the automated announcements (crew made them). All in all, it was a great $11.50 (although I did get to drink the water). Then I rode the 7, eastbound to main where I reversed and took the 7 express. It's quite intersting that I've ridden all the lines on the subway as of now (and the Franklin Shuttle and south side of Manhattan Bridge), but I've never been on a middle track (one-way) express. I decided to venture out to the Bronx and ride some more, but I was too late. All was not lost however! When I returned from 177-Parkchester, I noticed it had MVMs (which I will add to my site) and I noticed an 8 train marker between cars (we discussed that here before). Now I intend to ride all locals and all expresses in BOTH DIRECTIONS (maybe not both directions on the one-way expresses though). I finished my challenge of riding the whole subway this summer, I've finished PATH and the Newark Subway and the commuter rail is too expensive so I'll need this new ALL TRACK challenge. Read my ALL TRACK post for more info (of course, if you're more normal than I, which you definitely are, you won't, you see I'm still talking and nobody's reading!)
If you've read this far without falling asleep, you get a free visit to my MVM site, a savings of $0.00!!!
I read all your posts. Thanks for the $1.75, I bought my coffee, bagel and the Post.
I have yet to ride these tracks that are in service. What about all of you people, what haven't you ridden? BTW, I'm going by track, not route (eg, you can ride most of the 7 Ave express line on the 2 and not 3 and it counts for all, just not the local or the other direction).
Note: I won't mention one-way middle tracks, I'll just say that the only one I have ridden is the North (west) bound Flushing 7.
1. Southbound north of 168
2. Southbound north of Intervale
3. Northbound between Utica and Franklin
4. See 3 and Southbound between Woodlawn and 138 (I've ridden the 5 from 149 though).
5. See 2 except that I've ridden southbound between Dyre and Pelham Parkway.
6. Southbound north of 177.
7. I've ridden it all
8. Today I rode it on the 6! (see other post!)
9. See 1
A. Northbound along Rock Park spur or Southbound on Far Rock Spur. Nor Eastbound from Utica on the express to Lefferts Boulevard.
B. Northbound north of 145, Southbound between 145 and 125.
C. Southbound south of Franklin. Northbound south of Broadway-ENY.
D. Northbound north of 145.
E. Northbound north of 71-Continental. I don't recall (gasp!) if I've ridden between 42 and 7 Av southbound or 42 & 5 av northbound.
F. Southbound north of 71-Continental.
G. Northbound on any uniquely G track, Southbound on ENTIRE Queens Boulevard stretch.
J. Northbound south of Chambers (that's TOWARDS the Willy B) except between Jamaica Center and 121.
L. Northbound north of 6 Ave. Southbound between 1 Ave and Wycoff and between Broadway Junction and Rockaway Pkwy.
M. Northbound between Wycoff and Chambers (towards Southern Division BMT).
N. Southbound through 60 Street tunnel.
Q. I've ridden it all.
R. See N and Southbound on Queens stretch too.
S Franklin. The whole Northbound stretch.
S 42. Don't remember
S Rock. See A
Because I don't know how the following is arranged in terms of direction, I will use stations in range in the order they would be travelled in that direction.
PATH. From Newport or Christopher to Hoboken, from Newark/Journal Square to World Trade Center or Newport, from 33 to Newport or Hoboken.
Newark Subway. I did the whole thing.
Oops, in all that I forgot to mention that I've never ridden westbound (northbound) on the SIR east (south) of Grasmere.
You couldn't ask for much better than a hot toasty
heater under you on a cold morning. Of course it
wasn't too great in the middle of the summer, but in
the middle of the winter it was terrific. I would
take out the warm bottle of milk that my mother
packed for my trip, and between the heat, the sounds
of the compressors and the air brake sounds I would
curl into a fetal position and be back in the womb.
Now you know why I was so secure with the R9's.
Yeah, I remember those rattan seats and the heaters very well. After a lengthy ride on one, your ass looked like a waffle. And your pants legs that got soaked in the slush on the streets shrunk four inches.