greetings all,
i rented money train yesterday and i watched. it was really good. but it made me wonder about something. What happens to a train that had run someone over. i would imagine it could be evidence or something like that. and what about the T/O? Does the TA (jeez, all them T's) do anything for them? not happy subjects but subjects just the same.
Thanx,
Matt
When there is a 12-9, a man under incident, both the train and crew are removed from service. The train is moved to its' home inspection yard for inspection. There's a formalized checklist that must be filled out, signed and dated. Legally,that form attests to the condition of the train immediately after the incident. (It would be impractical to hold the entire consist out of service untill all law suits are settled.) As for the crew, they are taken for Incident testing that includes screening for drugs and/or alcohol. After that the crew is entitled to medical leave due to stress.
I'm planning to visit the city on a weekday soon to get photos of the Redbirds in action. Can someone advise me as to when the Redbirds operate on the No. 4 train? Do I have any chance of finding a few trains out during the midday hours?
Thanks!
- Jim (RailBus)
You do have a good chance of getting a Redbird on the No.4 Line during Middays and Rush Hours. But you may have to wait for one. Your chances are 1 Redbird out of 6 Silvers.
Pelham Bay Dave SR
Thanks for the info, Dave. I know about the waiting - I was out on the No. 6 line one Saturday last month, and there were only two Redbird trains out that day. But I caught one of them coming around the big curve at Whitlock Ave, so I'm not complaining!
- Jim (RailBus)
There are more Redbirds on the #6 than the #4. The #6 has 124 R29 Redbirds, plus 80 R36 Redbirds for a total of 204. The #4 only has 84 R33 Redbirds.
The #2 and #5 have great photo locations up and down both lines - and they are just about ALL Redbird.
Wayne
It's the same thing on the A. I've had to let as many as three or four trains of R-44s go by before getting a train of R-38s.
Does anybody have a NYC Subway Map from Spring or Fall 1985? Please post on SubTalk
Are you looking for a copy or just some information from it?
Larry,RedbirdR33
I am looking for a copy.
Why, pray tell did you choose the worst car to ever travel the system as your handle?
Slow, under powered and gaudy looking, they have a well deserved nickname amongst crews: ****can! There are some guys who won't pick certain lines to avoid them!
At the very most, I could say the brakes are decent. Everything else sucks. At least with the R-16 it was only the G.E. propelled cars. The Westinghouse cars were OK. But all the ****cans stink. (no pun intended)
Please, relax the language. Lets try to be a little more professional around here. I am going to take the liberty to make your post a little more p.c.
How dare you defame Westinghouse Amrails fine workmanship. Didn't 2755 look rather sharp after it's delivery? How about that 25** car on the Concourse last month with the roasted marshmellows on board? I knew it was the WEB TV folks out there! I have made plenty of soap on those cars and my family was ever so happy when I worked there. With my contract and rulebook in hand I should dedicate myself as R-68 #2, except as #2, I would have to get rid of the full width cab and #1 is obviously taken. Oh well. I only hope that the replacements for the R32 and up cars are as great as those French and Japanese cars with their grace and speed to boot. Some of us have pensions to worry about, you know.
Thank Mr. 68 for providing service to my line. No offense R46.
N Broadway Local
I am not a fan of the R68 at all. They are not as attractive as the R68A's, now those are really nice cars! But to be honest as long as the subway car is funtioning and has has A.C in the summer and heating in the winter, it's an ok car to me!
Peace
DaShawn
I have revised Spring 1985. Copyright 1979. Why?
The design which incorporated single colors for the various trunk lines made its debut in 1979.
I have revised 1978, copyright 1972.
Just curious: is that the edition with the note about Jamaica service being cut back to 121st St? I remember seeing such a map in the fall of 1985.
I am writing this E-mail in reference to the experimental R-110A's
that are sidelined indefinitly up in the Bronx. Since they are out of service,what is there future. Do they go back to Kawasaki ? Or are they so oddball that they can never run again without a heavy input of money. I doubt if the T.A. will strip them for parts since they
aren't compatible with anything out there. My suggestion or anybody's of course involves big bucks. Since they are so oddball,why not rebuilt them as non-high technology cars,(R-62/62A's) and let them spend the rest of their lives on the Grand Central Shuttle ?? I know they are 5 car units but to balance out the numbers,an extra car body could be fabricated so all three tracks have similar equipment. The 62's could be freed up and return to mainline.
What other alternative is there besides letting them lay up for years ?,scrapping them. Let's not forget the Gas Turbine cars used on the LIRR and Metro North. They were oddbal,but could be rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder as a straight electric and place amongst the ranks to replaced other wrecked M-1's. Not so, they were scrapped. The carbodies were okay unless I am unaware any revelations. So come on subtalkers!! What are your suggestions? And while we are compiling suggestions,then we gotta come up with some new ones for the R-110B's.
Let's no forget,one unit (3-cars) are out so parts from them can keep the others going. How about this! Dedicated equipment for the New and improved Franklin Avenue Shuttle !!
Bill Newkirk
The use of the B division cars for the Franklin Avenue shuttle makes sense - so bleepin' much sense that we can be sure the TA will never do it. As for the A division cars, perhaps they can go back to Kawasaki and be rebuilt as mechanically identical units to the R-142s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe the 110A's will end up like the R 11's.
Alas, they have tentatively put ten R68s aside for the new Franklin Shuttle service, to run in pairs. The platforms for the Franklin Shuttle will only be long enough to hold two R68s. Why? Who knows!
Wayne
Close but I think I'd opt to remove one non-cab car from each unit, for parts. Then assign the two four-car units to the Grand Central Shuttle.
/*What other alternative is there besides letting them lay up for years
?,scrapping them. Let's not forget the Gas Turbine cars
used on the LIRR and Metro North. They were oddbal,but could be
rebuilt by a reputable rebuilder as a straight electric and
place amongst the ranks to replaced other wrecked M-1's. Not so, they were scrapped. The carbodies were okay unless I am
unaware any revelations. */
The Turbine test cars for the LIRR didn't use standard M-1 bodies - the first was a rebuilt train car body. The second was a faily modified M-1 body - with low platfor capeability, and a large door on the side for the engine compartment...
I have a question can these go on the 7 line.If yes put it on the 7 line.
Yes they can but why the #7 line? One bastardized train will not be an asset for any line.
In addition, the R-110A is a 10-car set with no spare cars, but the #7 has 11-car trains (except in summer).
David
Today i add 11 more subway pictures on my page and more to come. Also i will add more bus pictures tomorrow. Check out my Subway Page.
Peace Out
Meaney
I just add more pictures on Division "A" Cars page and check out my Subway's Page.
Peace Out
Meaney
Great stuff - Good job all around!
Chuck Greene
Cool pics.
Your Flushing Line sots came out better than mine(For some reason, every Flushing line shot I take comes out
obstructed. Guess it's my luck).
Nice photos!
A couple of small observations: car 3875 is actually an R-32; the R-38s are numbered 3950-4149.
#1575 remains an R-7 from a mechanical and electrical standpoint, and could not m. u. with the R-10s. Cosmetically, it looks like an R-10. Call it an identity crisis.
Thank Steve B and i will change it. Just sign up my dreambook on Bus & Subway Page. Enjoy it!!!!
Peace Out
Meaney
David,
Nice site! You may want to note that the R68 cars in the 5000 series are, in fact, R68-A's.
I rode the Broad St. Subway today and marvelled at the OPTO operation. The operator has to jump up out of his seat to open the right side doors, and completely move to the left side of the cab and
open the left hand doors on center island platforms. KUDOS to the SEPTA operators for such hard work! After closing the doors, on either side, notch the controller up and off we go!
Chuck Greene
Hello Chuck -
At least in SEPTA land the "Operator" jumps up to get the job done and speed along the service.
Here in Chicago, members of ATU 308 are still bitter about the OPTO thing and "quite a few" are reluctant to provide a "rapid" transit service while performing door duty.
While I can sympathize with the union, I can NOT understand why they take their frustration and anger out on the traveling public - who pay the fares and are the reason for the existance of jobs on the CTA. They, the union, just don't get it!
Union and management problems should be between union and management, not taken out on the rider. What the traveling public (note I didn't use the word customer) wants and what they pay for is - safe, convenient and reliable service.
Chuck, hope and your family are doing well in the heat. Relief is on the way, as the weather "broke" here yesterday afternoon. It is actually pleasant here in Chi-town today and it is the first time in three weeks I've shut the A/C off and opened the windows.
Jim K.
Chicago
Over how long a time span was OPTO introduced in Chicago? Are all trains OPTO? Do all OPTO trains have full width cabs? Did any conductors get laid off because of OPTO? If not, what kinds of jobs did they get?
Thanks for satisfying my curiosity. (Anyone want to answer the same questions for Phila., I'd like that, too)
Chicago's first OPTO began on April 2, 1961. This was an off-peak service on the Evanston shuttle, using cars 25-28 and 39-50, on which the operator's cab had been modified to permit on-board fare collection from boarding passenger on the single-car trains. This ended by 1985, when Evanston trains began using two-car sets even off-peak.
Meanwhile, the Skokie Swift, inaugurated on April 20, 1964, had OPTO from the beginning, using high-speed cars 1-4, later also 23-26 and 29-30, and, by September 1964 the four articulated sets.
OPTO first appeared on multi-car trains with the inauguration of the Orange Line on October 31, 1993. This was followed by:
Brown Line (Ravenswood), February 6, 1995.
Green Line (Lake-Englewood/East. 63rd), June 22, 1997
Purple Line (Evanston, on its second go-round for OPTO, June 22, 1997
Blue Line (O'Hare-Forest Park/Douglas) and Red Line (Howard-Dan Ryan), November 9, 1997
At that point, the system was theoretically all-OPTO. However, a second person (not called a conductor; I forget CTA's terminology) rides the Blue and Red Line trains through the subway section to check that the doors are clear.
Alan Follett
So that means the T/O still operates the doors in the subway section, correct?
The T/O only operates the doors on trains in the subway when he/she is operating without a train attendant or whatever they offically being called.
Jim K.
Chicago
The official title of the subway conductors are called platform men. Why? I don't know.
BTW. Who are taking out their fustrations out on the public. Please give me examples. If any thing the majority of my co-workers have seemed to embrace one man operation.Especially those spoiled crybabys on the Ravenswood/Brown line.
So it reverts back to two-man operation in the subway as was done in the past.
Disclaimer: This is a factual reply only. I do NOT offer an opinion one way or the other on the subject of OPTO in Chicago!
On the Red Line, or Howard-Dan Ryan, the "conductor" boards the train at Fullerton southbound and operates the doors from North/Clybourn to Roosevelt Rd. They leave the train at Cermak(22nd)/Chinatown and wait for the next northbound train where the routine is reversed. The operator is in charge of opening/closing the doors between Howard and Fullerton and again from Cermak(22nd)/Chinatown to 95th. The "conductor" works the doors in the subway portion of the route. This is officially in effect when the number of cars in the train exceeds four (4).
On the Blue Line, or 54th/Cermak - Forest Park - O'Hare, the "conductor" boards the train at Division soubound and operates the doors from Chicago/Milwaukee to LaSalle. They leave the train at Clinton and wait for the next northbound where the routine is reversed. The operator is in charge of opening/closing the doors between 54th/Cermak, on the Douglas, and Forest Park, on the Congress to Clinton. He/she again picks up the responsibility at Division through to O'Hare. The "conductor" works the doors again in the subway portion of the route. The same car requirements as above rule.
Jim K.
Chicago
I get the picture. Thanks a lot!
Hi Jim:
Thanks for asking about us and we are supposed to get some cooler
weather tomorrow , but no rain in sight. We have a real drought
type emergency here.
Chuck Greene
Even though the Ridge spur line in dingy and underutilized even un rebuilt it is alot better then the Franklin Avenue Shuttle. Its also alot faster too!
Both the Franklin Shuttle and the Ridge Avenue spur are ancient anachronisms that should be closed and funds spent elsewhere on more needed rail service.
I do feel as though the Ridge Ave spur shoud close. Hey on a 16 min headway the cars do get full though.
I will be visting Phila. this week. The last time I was over there I was given a Education on there dangers that happened on OPTO trains.
A Motorman who was a Shop steward gave me a education how easy it is to get dragged. He closed down the train. Then He told me to pull the doors back. I was Able to get between the doors with the Indication light on. Well they might have modifyed those trains since my last visit. That was in 1991 and I was told the had a drag twice a mouth.
I witnessed a near drag at Pattison. The doors close and the train was about to move and someone was about to jump in between the cars but there was a SEPTA Policemen who got him off the chains in time.
Well I'll find out to see how there OPTO is now.
PEL BAY Dave Sr
That dragging stuff is scary. I do hope they have modified the operation somewhat.
Chuck Greene
I take it you were in the "railfan" seat(I say it that way because the seat is next to a barred, tinted glass window, behind the cab, behind the front of the car).
Yep, that conductor's always getting up and down. Must be tiring.
It's a shame you couldn't ride an express. On the Girard-North Philadelphia stretch(expresses slow down going through, but for some reason they don't stop) the train can get some good speed. The fastest
I've been on was at 64 mph between Olney and Erie.
Those trains can fly when they want to!
Thanks Steve:
While in local service, the trains are pretty slow, seemed to be a lot of yellow and red signals. I sure would like to ride an express some day! Thanks for your comments and thoughts.
Chuck Greene
You should also try the Ridge spur. While it's not as used, safe or even lit as the mainline, it's still fun to look at and ride(even with the abandoned Spring Garden station-the station entrance still exists and is constantly broken into).
Think of it as an underground Franklin Shuttle. Before renovation. Yikes!:)
Thanks , I have ridden the Ridge spur. It is kind of lonely and scary.
Chuck Greene
I gathered some information about the trains running and I did some subway-spotting myself for the three days I was in NYC (I came back to Boston just about two hours ago)
My findings:
The N had four different car types running on its tracks....the R32, the R40 Slant, the R68 (French) and the R68A (Japanese)...must be some record, four different distinct types on one single line! Anyone spot any R42s on the N?
I actually saw an R29 redbird on the 6 at Brooklyn Bridge station. Alas, all the 4 trains I've seen are the R62 type.
I will probably shout bloody murder on how they configured my home neighborhood line, the M was configured in R40 Slants of 4 cars! The M I am talking about is the Marcy to Metropolitan Ave one.
The Nassau S Shuttle, is also configured as 4 car units, but in R40Ms! OK, that is kinda reasonable, as it only has service to like half a dozen stations.
The Grand Central S is running on 4 car units from Livonia! The numbers were: 1930-1927-1942-1946. I remember they used to run 3-car units from Track 1. The 4 car unit came into Track 3.
OK, so here are my observations on what trains are currently running on now:
R29: 6 and R33: 2 (no R26, R28 or R36 redbirds seen).
R32: C, E and N (Note: I saw one mismatched pair on the C, the 3767-3650 mismatched pair.)
R38: A and C only.
R40 Slants: B, L, M, N and Q. (I actually saw a 6-car consist of the Q on the Coney Island yard. Does any other line other than the G run 6-car trains?)
R40M: Nassau S Shuttle only.
R42: L only.
R44: A only.
R46: F and R only.
R62: 4 only.
R62A: 1, 3 and Grand Central S only.
R68: (French) B (unconfirmed), D and N.
R68A: (Japanese) B and N only.
Well that is my observations for now. I only took statistics for the trains I actually saw in action for the 3 day period.
Nick C.
What did you see on the G line? When I was there I noticed R44/46's(I can't tell those damn things apart no matter how hard I try).
Sorry did not get to ride the G while I was there.
The numbers are one way to tell the R44s and R46s apart.
R44 numbers are from 5202 to 5479.
R46 numbers are from 5482 to 6258, with the numbers from 6208 to 6258 being even-only.
All R-44s are assigned to the A. All R-46s come from Jamaica Yard and are assigned to the E, F, G, and R lines.
On R-44s, the area where the blue band used to be is painted silver.
On R-46s, that same area is unpainted stainless steel.
R44s are manufactured by St. Louis, R-46 are manufactured by Pullman. R-44 have a gray stripe on the side, R-46 are smooth stainless steel. R-44 have glass panels beside the doors, R-46 do not. R-44s run on the A and Rockaway S (H). R-46 run on the F, G, R and sometimes E.
I have seen the NYCT-overhauled R42s on the N, mostly unit numbers in the high 4800s and all of the 4900s. There were a few stray R40Ms mixed in as well. Most of these can be found during mid-day and rush hour service.
If you keep a sharp eye out on the weekend, you MIGHT just run into a Slant R40 on the B.
The R26-R28 Redbirds live on the 5 and the R36 live on the 7, with 80 of them (ML and WF) assigned to the 6.
Wayne
I just came back from a 3-day NYC fantrip as well...In response to some of your observations, I didn't see any R42's on the N..I saw the R32, 68, and 40 all on consecutive trains(missed the 32 and 68 while at 4th Ave, rode the Slant 40). The Q did have some R42's running, but I didn't get a chance to ride one.
There is at least ONE Redbird train running on the 4. We saw it at least once....
I saw an oddity(I think)..there was trackwork on the Far Rockaway extension on the A so there were shuttles running. My friend and I got off at Broad Channel coming back when we saw an R32 set heading the other way and waited for it...I believe the last two cars were R38's
Oops, left a few things out.
Some of the R68's are still running as single units, as there are still obviously a lot of "mismatched" pairs out there.
This is very prevalent on the D, and pretty much exclusive to the D. All R68s on the N are already linked into 4 car sets in something like 2900-2901-2903-2902, so that the number divisible by 4 is the lowest car in the 4 car set. Only about (my observation) 10 to 15 percent of the R68s on the D are linked into 4 car units.
I also did take a small number of pics during subway spotting, even a couple of them of the decaying Coney Island/Stillwell Avenue station...very sad indeed. I hope the TA invests a good amount of money to rehab Stillwell Ave. I even took pics of about half a dozen cars (all of different types).
Nick C.
The 6 car consist of R40 slants with Q signs is does not mean they go down the road as 6 car trains. Cars are cut, and added by the yard motormen. Either those 6 cars were waiting for 4 others, or were waiting to go into the barn themselves for repairs/inspection........There are curently 98 R40M cars availiable for service. They are operated on the Nassau shuttle, the Bay Pkwy portion of the M, the N and the Q........R42 cars also run on the J/Z in the "eastern division" (4550 to 4863), as well as the Bay Pkwy portion of the M, N & Q (4864 to 4949). There are 12 R42 eastern division cars out of service for CBTC signal testing These cars are based in CIYD.......you will also find R32 cars on the A, as well as R32/38 mixed consist trains on the A/C......R46 cars also run on the E regularly. Once the WillyB reopens, they will be on the E rarely.......The # 1,2,4,5,6, & 7 lines are running 10 cars The 3 runs 9 cars, and the 7 should go back to 11 cars after Labor Day. The A, B, D, E, F, N, Q, & R run 600 foot trains of 10-60' cars or 8 75' cars, with the D not having seen a 60' car and Q not seeing a 75' car in quite some time. The C, L, and Bay Pkwy M run 8-60' cars; the J/Z currently runs 6-60 foot cars; and the G runs 6-75" cars Monday early AM thru Friday PM, with 4-75' cars Friday PM to Monday early AM to facilitate Sat/Sun OPTO operation. The GC shuttle runs 2-3 car trains and 1-4 car train, the Rockaway shuttle runs 4-75' cars for OPTO except on weekend beach weather days when 8-75' are ran; and the Franklin Shuttle when reopened will run 2-75' cars per train.
Well this week maybe Thursday I will be going down to Phila. I will
be rideing the Broad Street Line to see whats new. Also I
will go ride the Market Street Frankford Line. I know I will be seeing the New M4'S.
Here are some Questions.
Is there any chance of seeing the Amound Joy m3 cars?
Are there any PCC'S running on any of there trolly Lines?
Also are you allowed to take Photos of there trains in the
subway or Elevated?
Thanks for your time
Pelham Bay Dave Sr
1. 1-5% chance of seeing the Almond Joy's except for in the yards.
2. 0% chance of seeing PCC's anywhere except the Elmwood yard at the end of the 36 trolley
3.I've been questioned but never stopped from taking pictures as long as it's not in the conductor's face(they DO get irate at times).
You can still see the Almond Joys out for the Money collection train. I see it pass through Margeret Orthodox eastbound every weeknite at 7:35 PM
Hey John, what happened to the Budd Man?
BTW, how did your video you took with the carmera on the floor of the Budd train looking into the next car during the ERA fantrip?
Jim K.
Chicago
It trned out great. Me and someone else are working on a video for the MFSE and that will be in it. Sorry I cant say who else until the video gets finished. Problem is Im working all the time so I work on it on my free time. It will take a while.
That train seems to pass through 15th street around 8:30-ish, although the time can vary by a good amount. They often use the crossover there to back onto the eastbound track to let a passenger train pass, so there's plenty of opportunity for photos as the train pulls into the station, out, then in again.
They have armed guards collecting money and/or tokens in the front, and trash guys in the back filling a car full of trash. It's one of the really interesting features of the line.
I've taken some pictures , especially the interior of the M-4 while
it was waiting to leave 69th st. I was the first one on the front car
so there was nobody there to complain. I also shot a photo out of the
front window railfan seat . Some people gave me some funny looks but who cares? Also took a picture of the entire train at Frankford
terminal-nobody said anything to me!
Honestly, you will just have to try and see what happens. The Broad St. line is still running the "orange" 1984 model B-IV's. They still
run well and the A/C is good and cold! Just got done riding both Subway lines today. On Sundays at Fern rock you stay on while the train loops around the yards. You get to see some old stuff parked there on your trip around. Stay on the train or hop the next one free to center city!
Have fun on your visit!
Chuck Greene
I also shot a photo out of the front window railfan seat . Some people gave me some funny looks but who cares?
You want funny looks? Try it with a camcorder!
--Mark
Hi Mark:
I'll bet you get some looks with all the photos and camcorder shots you take! We have to do these things because we love transit so much! Are you going to be at the Model Trolley show on Aug. 28th at King of Prussia? I'll be there and we swap stories. I might even
buy another tape from you if you have a good one!
Chuck Greene
Unfortunately, no, I won't be at the August 28th show, much as I'd like to. Usually Joel schedules the show in September, so I planned my vacation at the end of August. For some reason (I presume price or availability), Joel masde his show earlier, so I'll be on vacation (Cape May, NJ) while the show is in progress.
And ALL my tapes are good ones :)
--Mark
First off.....For the last five times I've been to Philly. I've been harassed for taking photos. The last time a SEPTA official made us get off the train at 13th st.(My last ride in an Almond joy :( Except for the ERA trip) To be safe go to 1234 Market st. on the main floor near the SEPTA store there is an information booth. Tell the person what you want to do, Where, and when. They will notify all concerned. If she Doesn't know who to call tell her to call Mr Whittaker from public relations.
Secondly......Except for the Trash/Revenue collection train, All of the Almond Joys are out of service :(
Mark
I saw the money train last night entering 56th St. It was nice to see the Almond Joys out and about. Most of the windows have been painted over and the rear door of the last car is missing. It looks in sorry shape.
In my spare time, I like to tinker with drawing track maps of what might have been on the NYC subway. Today, I came up with a slightly improved version of today's Rogers Avenue Junction(or the Franklin/Nostrand junction on the Eastern Pkwy. IRT).
I had a few ideas and sketches before I came up with this:
Keep the four track, one level at Franklin Avenue, put scissors switches on both sides at the east end of the station allowing trains from 7th Avenue and Lexington Avenue to mix.
Then the express tracks dive(the rush hour 5 is on the express and the 2 switches) and then turn onto Nostrand Avenue leaving two tracks on the mainine.
As for the mainline, after a reasonable distance, the Utica bound track splits(while the Manhattan bound tracks merge on the lower level), keeping the present formation until after Utica. There I would keep pretty much the same formation.
This way, you don't have that unnecessary single-track for the eastbound locals bottlenecking the whole line.
Of all the things about the subway that irk me, none does it like this junction.
Would've been nice if they did it my way:):):)
There is an abondoned stair case on the Times Square Shuttle platfrom near the turnstiles. The stairs go down and are completely dark. The whole thing has a fence around it up to the ceiling. Anybody know where is goes?
Eric
It's a storage area, it used to be an overpass to the other side. On the other side the stair has been removed. Apparently, it's easier to have that drawbridge that doesn't force people to go up and down through an overpass.
I meant underpass
The stairway was originally used as an underpass between the two the side platforms as at that time the Contract I Times Square Station was a local stop. The floor of the passageway is level with the floor of the BMT Broadway Subway and passes between the two express tracks.
The north stairway that you saw is closed at the bottom and the passageway was used for storage at least into the 1960's. The south stairway was boarded over but can be seen from below from the passageway. The underpass was probably closed to passengers sometime after shuttle operation began in 1918.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is another abandoned passage in Times Square station. Walk down from the shuttle area to the N/R train (ignoring the signs that tell you to take another route until 2003). There is a mid-level mezzanine halfway between the shuttle level and the N/R level. Turn around, and to the left of the stairs is a door with a hole in the window that you can look through, into a passageway that, for some reason, is lit. You can clearly see signs that indicate "To Coney Island". Who knows what line that led to, and why the passageway is closed? Looks like it has been closed for years, judging from the nasty stench.
[There is another abandoned passage in Times Square station. Walk down from the shuttle area to the N/R train (ignoring the signs that tell you to take another route until 2003). There is a mid-level
mezzanine halfway between the shuttle level and the N/R level. Turn around, and to the left of the stairs is a door with a hole in the window that you can look through, into a passageway that, for
some reason, is lit. You can clearly see signs that indicate "To Coney Island". Who knows what line that led to, and why the passageway is closed? Looks like it has been closed for years, judging from
the nasty stench.]
You're seeing the remnants of a separate fare-controlled entrance for the BMT, dating back before unification in 1940.
Are there detailed maps of the Times Square station available anywhere? Last summer I spend some time wandering around, and it's more complex than I had imagined. I'm sure there's some interesting history that I'm unaware of. For instance, why are there two ways to get from the N/R to the 1/2/3/9 (one, following the crowds, to the shuttle area and then off to the left; the other, now closed for construction, through a maze of narrow passageways immediately to the left of the ramps)? And what about all the different ways to get down to the 7 train and to the A/C/E passageway? I'm afraid the rehab will eliminate much of the complexity.
From the shuttle platform, walk towards the 1/2/3/9 platforms but turn left down a hallway just before them (I think signage there points towards the A/C/E). About halfway down, embedded in the wall on the left, is this...um...thing. What is it and why is it there?
This sounds like a job for...
www.forgotten-ny.com [g]
I'll have to check these out.
There's already a "Canarsie" sign exposed in the Times Square Complex; now THAT'S pretty inexplicable.
Since the Canarsie line is/was a BMT line, it was a means of directing passengers wishing to get to Canarsie - by BMT, of course. There used to be pillar signs at Union Square which said, "To 14th St. subway", along with a nice, long arrow pointing in the proper direction. There is a very brief scene in The Warriors which features one of these signs.
Oh, yes, yes, if you could add a Times Square (subway) section on your web page, I'd be thrilled -- I'm afraid it's all going to be lost very soon. Is the Canarsie sign on your page? (I only just recently discovered it and I haven't yet had a chance to get through it all, although I certainly will one of these days.)
As for this "thing," I think it's some sort of artwork. It's a tiny sculpture, somewhat resembling a face, embedded in the wall. It's covered with a glass panel and even lit from inside, IIRC. It looks like it was put there in the early 70's and untouched since. But what's it doing there, in that passageway, which I can't imagine has ever seen terribly great passenger volumes?
I'll be in the system on Saturday (on a Transit Museum outing) and I'll see if I can get over to Times Square after the day's festivities are at an end.
Speaking of which, are there any other endangered stations in the system? I'm thinking of stations like Fulton Street with all its mazelike ramps, stairways, and passageways; the massive yet decrepit Chambers Street on the J/M/Z; Atlantic Avenue/Pacific Street; etc. And are the rumors true that the Manhattan-bound L will soon be abandoning its private track at Atlantic Avenue? I've only been out there once and I found it really cool -- probably the only place in the system where the separation between the tracks for the two directions of a single line can be counted in blocks rather than feet (I hope someone can prove me wrong here).
I do know that part of the Atlantic Avenue complex is to be torn down. But I don't know the details or timetable.
Probably between 2000-2001. They want to make the Canarsie L line a straight run instead of the round-about way it has to go from Sutter to Atlantic Ave. station due to the old Fulton el structure as it goes toward Pitkin Ave.
Also, the re-aligning of the Canarsie route will aide in the NYCT's plans for CBTC operation that they will installed first on the L line, and later perhaps on other areas of the system.
Doug aka BMTman
Currently, the outermost southbound track has been removed. There is a blue plywood wall up along the southbound platform and the Canarsie bound trains are using the next innermost track, formerly the "JJ"/"KK" layup track. Plans call for the removal of the entire structure over Snediker Avenue, including the easternmost track and trackway. My concern is a) how will this affect the period mezzanine and fare-control area and b) will they retain the original platform furnishings on whatever platform remains.
Wayne
It is the Brooklyn bound Platform right now. Later it will be the Manhattan bound platform.........
3TM
Nice sign over the uptown 47th-50th St tower now that this tower is Automatic non rush hour. I believe from memory the sign reads:
"This Tower is Now Automatic, What You Punch Is What You Get".
Nice and too the point for the points (pardon the pun/get my drift). It's over the door, big large lettering black on white sign.
Also included down by eye level are those handy dandy lineup signs for the various routes.
Now if they could come up with a to the point sign for the Conductor like "Open Other Side Idiot, Or Your Fired".....
I was tempted, a few months ago while waiting for a Q train as numerous B's, D's, and F's came through, to take control and punch the Q button as a train pulled in. Would that work? If the operator hit a different (correct) button afterwords, which punch would take effect? I could just imagine the reaction as the train pulled into 57th Street and no one knew why.
All the T/O has to do is press cancel and then punch his route. That did happen to me. I came Into 149 Street-Grand Concause and the punch light was lit for 7 Ave with the Line up. I was a No.5 so ofcause I canceled it and hit Lex and I did get the currect route.
What about the button at Rockaway Boulevard on the A? You have to ring once for Lefferts, and ring twice for Rockaway. So if I saw a Lefferts train coming, I would just push the button, then the operator would push the button and off to the Rockaways we go!
I did that once five years ago. I didn't work. I punched it once when the train was comming, motorman punched it again and it still didn't go to Far Rockaway.
Well there is a Punch like that at Bronx Park East. It sez Throu EXP ring 3 times.
And twice on the pipe means you ain't gonna show... Rim shot!
If you remember Tony Orlando & Dawn, you know what that means.
Not likely. Any Motorman worth his handles would check the switch points and the home signal first. If it's set for Lefferts, then he'd call the Liberty Junction tower. I beleive Green over yellow is the diverging route to the Rockaways. This even though straight rail goes down the ramp to the Rock. The original lineup is to Lefferts, so that makes it's switch off to the right the main route, bottom Green.
Also, most Train Operators let Liberty Junction tower know their call letters upon leaving 88st-Boyd Ave in order to get a line up quicker.
Some tower operators who work Liberty Junction will tell the train operator to punch anyway (if they call from 88-Boyd). In fact alot of towers where you must punch (even though the machine is NOT on automatic), you are requested to punch even if you call ahead.
I guess they want to make sure you come to a complete stop in the station.The use of the punch insures that.
Then they'll line you up.
This has been going on for many nites/weekends. Track replacement of continious weilded rail to jointed track sections on the Coney Is. express track has reached Kings Highway. Track has been replaced from just south of Newkirk (just as the grade rises and Ave H) to where the overpass of Kings Hwy begins.
Work Trains were in Kings Hwy all weekend, great site to see waiting for the D. Too bad I forgot my camera (was working all weekend). Neighbors aren't happy with all the toot tooting of the MOW engines as they move back and forth but I LOVED IT!!
why arent the new rails welded?
On the Astoria line, there are only 2 express stops: Hoyt Avenue & Ditmars Avenue (not counting QbP). I believe that of the other 4, 30th Ave., 36th Ave., 39th Ave., and Broadway, the MTA should make Broadway an express stop due to the large volume of people who use that station vs. the other 3. Practically nobody gets on at 36th & 39th Avenues, and 30th Avenue would be too close to the others.
Is it feasable to make Broadway into an express stop, especially now that the W train is coming?
Your taking about money.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
You would have to widen the structure to have the outside tracks go outward. You would have to condemn many buildings and businesses. The money could better be used elsewhere. How much time savings would be generated for passengers getting off at Broadway, Astoria Blvd & Ditmars Blvd. with express operation? Local stop passengers would be moaning about having to let the express go by. P.S. Is Broadway your station?
YES, Broadway is my station, but that is not why I am advocating making it an express stop. Actually, I think it would be rather easy to reconfigure the station, without widening the structure. It would be necessary to move the platforms and tracks around, though, and I'm sure it would be costly.
Does anyone have or has access to information regarding the original rollsign listings for the Brooklyn PCCs when newly delivered?
Carl M.
A lot of people get off at 30th Avenue too. Should the MTA make that an express station too, Adam?
Be real,
N Broadway Local
Astoria Blvd Station (Express Station)
No, 30th Avenue should NOT be made into an express stop b/c it is too close to Hoyt Avenue. Actually, the only 2 express stops on the Astoria line should be Broadway and Ditmars in my opinion.
OK----There's only 6 stations on the Astoria line excluding Queensboro Plaza. There should be no express service at all on this line. It makes no sense!!!!! The platforms at each station on this line collect way too many people in the morning.
Everytime an express train skips a local stop on this line, the local stops get too crowded and when a local train finally comes, there's not enough room to allow everyone waiting to get on the damn train by the time it hits Broadway from Ditmars Blvd.
I believe in having no express trains and way more local trains to alleviate the crowds.
GO CASEY JONES!!!!! I NOMINATE YOU FOR MTA PREZ!!!!
Had this line been extended past LGA, as was envisioned in the Second System plans, the need for express service would have been justified. As it stands now, any time savings would be insignificant.
There's express service on the Astoria Line?
Not that I know of. At one time, the B use to make express over me during the peak period (thank god they don't do it anymore - THEY DELAY ME). Fortunately, that side of the bridge is fix now.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
Let me get this straight. The "N" is known as the Sea Beach only in Brooklyn? It is called the Astoria Line in Queens, and the Broadway Express in Manhattan? That is what I have gleaned from all the reports I've read on this net. Is that right? If not what is the "N" Train called in the other boroughs besides Brooklyn. They certainly don't call it the Sea Beach in Queens, do they?
[Let me get this straight. The "N" is known as the Sea Beach only in Brooklyn? It is called the Astoria Line in Queens, and the Broadway Express in Manhattan?]
Correct, except that it's now the Broadway Local in Manhattan.
Pete: Broadway Local? Yuk! I'm not riding the Sea Beach until it gets into Brooklyn. Broadway Local? Who thought that crop us?
I meant: Who thought that crap up? Better concentrate on what I type.
The N is currently running local along Broadway in Manhattan because of the Manhattan Bridge situation. If and when the south side tracks reopen, it may or may not return to the express tracks.
To me, the N will always be the Broadway Express because that's the way I remember it from the good old days. In fact, the original side route signs on the R-32s said just that. The R-27s originally had N-Broadway/Sea Beach Express. If you get an N train of R-32s today, you'll see N-Astoria/B'wy/Sea Beach on the side route signs, with no reference to local or express operation.
On maps, the N is listed simply as Broadway Local.
On aboard! This is a northbound N to Astoria. Please stand clear the closing doors.
N Broadway Local
Astoria
Pete: Broadway Local? Yuk! I'm not riding the Sea Beach until it gets into Brooklyn. Broadway Local? Who thought that crap up?
They changed it when they had to shut down the southwest side of the Manhattan Bridge. Sometime in the next millenium, the N/Broadway Exp. is supposed to return.
Until Canal St, you coud have a Broadway express right now(via switches at the station).
I hope I'm not dead by the time that happens. Sea Beach and Express are supposed to by synonomous. A local? Triple Yuk!!!
I know this sounds like high treason, but the BMT standards did have a Sea Beach Local sign on their route roller curtains. They did not, however, have a 4th Ave. Express sign.
I agree with your observation, though, just as the R-10s will forever be synonimous with the A train.
The R-10s have been off the A for a while, and there are now people who don't remember them on that line, so they wont be forever synonymous. As for the N, hopefully it will be express in the future and will regain it's synonymity. I think that the Manhattan Bridge needs to suffer a tragedy a la Tacoma-Narrows for it to be replaced, it seems to be the only way. Maybe we can have some terrorist blow it up.
The R-10s spent the bulk of their careers on the A line (29 years to be exact), and for most of that time, served that line exclusively. It's easy for me to say they will forever be synonimous with the A because I remember them when they ruled the roost over there and rode on many, many A trains of those cars. The WF R-36s have the same distinction, having served the 7 exclusively since 1964. OK, OK, some WF units have made their way to the mainlines over the years, including now.
I will always be a local. Please see Q.
Not if both sides of the bridge are open. You think it's fun running three trains through the tunnel?
That's OK by me. I really can't blame you, since the N has been stuck on the local tracks in Manhattan for the past decade. I vivdly remember when the N used the bridge and ran express up Broadway, and the R-32s proudly displayed "N-Broadway Express" signs. It made for a nice, quick dash from Union Square to 34th St.
When did the N train use the Queensboro Bridge as part of it's route? How did it get underground when it got to Manhattan? Are there remnants of track on the bridge still?
CJ
The N train NEVER used the Queensborough Bridge as part of it's route, nor did any BMT line. Until 1942, Second Avenue Elevated trains used the bridge. Since the line was elevated, there were no tunnels to get to.
Yes everyone, I'm a Broadway Local. Just like my neighbor the #1.
You would basically have to put the tracks where the local platforms are and the platforms where the track are. Step 2 wouldn't be very hard, outside of punching new stairs through, but Step 1 would require a lot of shoring up of the ironwork beneath the current platforms, since trains tend to weigh a wee bit more than most people.
Let's see. Got the 4 at Bowling Green. Wrong-railed from Bowling Green to Brooklyn Bridge, where the train was turned for brooklyn. Across the platform transfer to a 6 or 4 which ran around the loop, and local uptown. the express track at 14st was roped off, and STILL, there were people looking for a train. Platform conductrors at Brooklyn Bridge, making announcements, service notices, etc., did not stop several people from standing in line, one after the other, asking a uniformed motorman which train went to Brooklyn.
At 14st, I went for the N/R. This time, all trains were on the express, and the local roped off. Spotted no signs on the platform, but there was the one couple holding a service notice, reading it on the platform, and taking it with them onto the train.
From Times Square, I took the 1/9 home. Again despite many signs, and the conductor making announcements of where to transfer to get to the bypassed stations (and announcing the bypassed stations!) people looked like sheep.
I only have one question; at Wall St, the uptown platform was blocked off, but the token booth open. The booth was closed on the Brooklyn-bound side, where all trains were running. Why didn't they move the agent to the open side, and block off the entrance to the uptown platform?
-Hank
On Saturday, the two sections of the 4 connected at the uptown platform at Brooklyn Bridge. Downtown 4 and 6 ran around the loop and let everyone off on the uptown local track. 4 to/from Brooklyn turned at the uptown express track. Downtown platform at BB was closed off to passengers.
On my way back downtown Saturday night, the conductor on the downtown 6 announced at Canal St that "this train will not open its doors at Brooklyn Bridge"-- he went on to explain that it would go through the station, around the City Hall loop, and stop at the uptown side, where connections could be made for the Brooklyn-bound 4. But many passengers, hearing only that it wouldn't stop at Brooklyn Bridge, got off at Canal.
At Brooklyn Bridge, numerous confused passengers kept trying to get on the Brooklyn-bound 4 on the express track, thinking it was heading uptown. This despite nearly continuous announcements on both the train and on the platform.
Hmmm. You said the G. O. operation allowed the passengers to ride around CityHall loop? If Rudy finds out about that, he won't be too happy! lol
Maybe Rudy was out of town.
That sounds like a bizarre G. O. What was going on?
Well, there were construction workers on the downtown platform at Brooklyn Bridge on Saturday, with construction-looking-like debris and/or equipment. I didn't get a good look, I was moving to the car ahead of mine, where the lights weren't working, to get a better view of City Hall station. :-)
This is the second time I've been around the City Hall loop-- the first time was during a similar G.O. several months ago.
When will this GO repeat?
Hello friends: Could someone please give me or tell me where could I get the radio frequencies of the NYC Transit. Thanks!
Rook102, you can the NYCT frequencies from the book called Police Call and Beyond. You can pick this up at any Radio Shack store. Radio Shack updates this book every year. i get this book every year. The country is divided into 9 sections by the above book. You need Book 1 which is the Northeast section of the United States.
Enjoy.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
The "Monitor America" directory which is sold by Scanner Master of Albany, Ny is a mucn more comprehensive guide for scanner enthusiasts. It is much more complete in its coverage of non-public safety radio and includes extensive listings of transit, air traffic control, news media, sports venues and other radio users. They also have a dedicated NY/NY Metro Edition which includes extensive NYC Police/Fire/EMS information and explanations.
This info is also available online:
http://www.panix.com/clay/scanning/frequencies/nycta.shtml
ALL FREQUENCIES are IN mHz, many may be difficult to receive.
470.3875 Community Repeater -- Emergencies, Maintenance, Power
161.0250 Coney Island Yard
160.8750 Coney Island Yard BMT IND
160.3950 Coney Island Yard Tower A
160.8950 Coney Island Yard Tower B
161.1900 Div A IRT Subway Operations
158.8800 Div A IRT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
161.5050 Div B1 BMT Subway Operations
158.7750 Div B1 train-to-dispatcher
158.7750 Div B1 BMT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
158.8050 Div B1 BMT Train-to-Dispatcher Simplex
161.5650 Div B2 IND Subway Operations
161.1900 Division A dispatcher-to-train (former IRT division)
158.8800 Division A train-to-dispatcher
161.5050 Division B1 dispatcher-to-train (former BMT division)
161.5650 Division B2 dispatcher-to-train (former IND division)
158.8050 Division B2 train-to-dispatcher
470.4875 Maintanence of Way
160.8450 S. Brooklyn Railroad[?]
161.5650 S. Brooklyn Railroad[?]
156.1050 Signals/Maintanence of Way
160.8450 Yard IND BMT IRT
160.8450 yard IND BMT IRT
Spotted what was likly a bi-level car shell on a wharf at Port Elizabeth this morning on my way to work. It was sheathed in plastic, but the shape was pretty distinct.
-Hank
There appears to be a homeless Cat (or kitten) at the Fulton Street downtown J/M/Z. It startled me because it jumped from Track level to the platform. Apparently, the station cleaning crew set out food and water for it. It seems very wary of people but is a very nice looking cat.
Oh, and they're running a 4 car trains of R40m on the S.
That explains where the R40M's have disappeared to, since they aren't running anywhere on the J shuttle (only R42's).
During a rare driving excursion on the FDR drive yesterday, I saw what appeared to be a bridge for rail traffic ( with overhead lines
for power) which somewhat paralleled the Triboro bridge. This span was, I think, of concrete and the girders were red. It looked like it connected the Bronx and maybe Queens. Sorry for needing to ask, but can anyone tell me what I saw?
It might be the Hell's Gate railway bridge.
It was the Hell Gate Bridge, which carries Amtrak service on the NE Corridor between NYC and Boston.
It also carries the occasional freight train.
That was the Bridge Over Troubled Waters.
-Hank :)
...And the words of the prophets are written on the subway walls...
Oops, wrong song. Right artists.
That is none other than Hell Gate Bridge. And if I may say, it's one helluva bridge - much better-designed than the Manhattan Bridge and incredibly strong.
I read somewhere in this thread (but can't find it again) about the relationship between the State of CT & M-N. The impression was left that it's a MTA/NY State RxR.
Well I just happen to be reading an article in one of the "trades" that says "Connecticut owns the RxR from the state line to NH ... and 344 EMUs (M2/Cosmopolitans) ... and locomotives (for New Canaan, Danbury & Waterbury lines) ..."
Question: Does NJ own the equip. on the Port Jervis & Spring Valley lines there ?
That would mean NY State owns the equip. on Hudson & Harlem lines ?
Mr t__:^)
No, and yes. MNCR provides equipment to NJT to provide ther service to NY. Until recently, NJT used this equipment as part of its pool, but now may only use it on the lines serving NY. Often, NJT equipment will make the trip as well, and NJT gets payyments from the MTA to make the service. The same system works in reverse for ConnDOT.
MNCR owns the Hudson, Harlem, and lower New Haven (south of the CT line) outright. (Ok, the state owns them) ConnDOT owns the CT portion of the line from the CT border to New Haven, and the branches.
-Hank
CT, being the pro mass transit state it is :( , hasn't upgraded that catenary like NY did, and also is limp on the funiding issue - A conductor I talked with yesterday (heading up to pick my bike up from the dealer) told me that the New haven line hasd a major equipment crunch - partly because CT won't cough up the cash for new stuff - as a result, I was in a train of M-4s that were 6 hot out of 9. Well, they ARE M-4s, which, IMHO are the worst of the three NH types...
One of the funny things as far as the MN equipment on the PJ/Pascack lines is that MN made a great show of sending some Bombardier coaches over from the Hudson line, and instead of leaving the Hudson line names on the sides, they redid them with PJ/Pascack oriented names on the side..(i.e. there are now MN cars named Middletown, Port Jervis, spring Valley, etc.etc...)so now it is quite possible to ride on a MN car named Middletown...then ride on a PATH car named Middletown...(just wondering...how did they get them from the east side of the river to the west..car float??...or did they run them down the Amtrak west side connector, thru the Pennsy tubes then double back over the Waterfront Connector??)
About a year ago I saw some MN coaches in the Penn Station tunnel yard. Perhaps they had come down the west side connection and were headed for Hoboken?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That sounds just about right mouse......
From what I observed all Port Jervis & Spring Valley lines out of Hoboken are powered by locos painted in MN colors, but about while 95% of the cars use on these lines are MN cars. Every now and then you get a NJT car in the mix. So in short on the Port Jervis & Spring Valley lines are all MN equpiment (with a few NJT equipment, i.e. cars out for maintenace, etc.) and are maintained by NJT (I'm 90% sure but I might be wrong).
Thurston: That was me. CDOT does own approx half of the M2-4-6 series and about 10 Fl-9's. They also own about 20 or so of the Shoreliner coaches.These are all intermixed with the MTA owned cars of the same type. The only cars which stay exclusively on the Harlem and Hudson Lines are the ACMU's,M-1 and M-3's.
The MTA owns about 30 coaches and six locomotives that are assigned to the Port Jervis Line service and are suppossed to be used there in-so-far-as is possible.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The only cars which stay exclusively on the Harlem and Hudson Lines are the ACMU's,M-1 and M-3's.]
M-1 ? I thought only the LIRR had M-1 & MN H&H lines had M-3 because there was a slight difference ?
P.S. Doesn't the MN-H&H have some FL-9s. There was a post about one or more of them being parked in Penn Sta, but I couldn't see them last time I went exploring on the West tracks (1 thru 10) of Penn.
[They also own about 20 or so of the Shoreliner coaches.]
These are used with GP-40s on the NH to New London service ?
P.S. So Larry that was you, I knew it was a reliable source.
Mr t__:^)
CDOT owns somethng like a dozen FL9s and MNCR until recently had a few more than that. Some of the MNCR FL9s have been put up for sale or scrap in the last month or so - now that the Genesis units have been somewhat debugged. Hey - it only took about 4 years to debug them.
And speaking of debugging - I wonder how long it will take to debug the DE30s?
As for the M1(s) on MNCR - they roam freely over the Hudson and Harlem lines. As far as I know, there are no restrictions as to where they go so long as it's under running third rail.
FWIW - MNCR is still running their 1100 series MUs in addition to their M1s and M3s. These are electric MUs built around 1963 for New York Central and are very similar to the Worlds Fair cars that were built for the LIRR at the same time.
As you know, the LIRR demotored their MUs around 1970 and converted them to diesel haul coaches. But these MNCR MUs remain powered and run on some of the short Rush hour trips.
Thanks Dave for the additional detail ! Before long I'll need a file cabinet just for all the stuff I print off this site.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: Thank you. I should have said that MN operates M-1a and M-3a EMU's. The MTA purchased the original M-1's (770 cars) from 1968 through 1972 for use on the LIRR. They purchased an additional 178 cars from 1971 to 1973 for use on the Penn Central Harlem & Hudson Lines.
There were some diffences particularly the placement of the third rail shoes and the interior seat color,also the LIRR M-1's had rollsigns, the PC M-1a's did not.
The MTA purchased an additional 174 cars in 1985 to 86 and called these the M-3's. Likewise there was an additional 142 cars for use on what was by then MN,called the M-3a's. MN only uses the "a" when refencing these cars with the LIRR otherwise they are justy called M-1 or M-3.
As regards the Shoreliner order the original puchase for CDOT was for 20 coaches that were delivered in 1985. An additional order was placed in 1991 for 10 coaches for MN service and 10 more for the Shoreline East service. The cars for Shoreline East service have a slightly different paint scheme and are numbered in the 1600 series.
As a rule the two CDOT fleets are not intermixed except that on the Waterbury Branch it is not uncommon to see a consist (1 loco,2 coaches) of 'Shoreline East' equiptment if the regular shuttle is in the shop. I also believe that there were a few occasions when MN/CDot FL-9's were used on the Shoreline East.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, Thanks for the detail. I also enjoy seeing the diesels in NH paint jobs, brings me back to the days of my youth when the NH use to run from NH thru Middletown and on to Willimantic via the "Air Line" route (a couple of freight cars only).
Mr t__:^)
MN has a total of 33 FL-9's and 7 Fl-9 AC's. LIRR had three FL-9 AC's.
The'AC's are the ones rebuilt by ABB Traction and have much greater horsepower (3100 vs 1800) and greater fuel capacity (1400 vs1200gals).
Of the 33 FL-9's 10 are painted in NHRR colors and owned by CDOT but are generally assigned only to MN trains,not Shoreline East. Of the 23 MN owned FL-9's six have already been sidelined at Croton North, being displaced by the new Genesis P-32's. They are in the old east yard together with nine of the ten MN SPV's and two ex Lackawanna MU's.
The 7 rebuilt FL-9 AC's should be around for sometime to come.
MN generally uses the locomotives on the runs into non-electrified territory but lately has been using some to cover runs entirely within the electrified zone. This is due to the purchase of the delivery of an 50 additional Shoreliner IV coaches. In the electrified zone they are used on runs making limited stops.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Which are the larger commuter rail networks in the US?
Does a commuter railroad have to be one like the traditional LIRR or Metra that serves the suburbs? I consider the Washington Metro to be a type of commuter railroad even though it's a city subway.
That's a tough question, since there's not a simple test of what's a commuter rail system.
Some people talk about a servie that operates mainly or only in the peak commuting hours, but many of the largest commuter rail systems operate off-peak and weekend service on most or all of their lines, though less frequently than the off-peak service of rapid transit or light rail. Others count systems that have a lot of suburban trackage and are dominated by suburb-center city work-related commutes, but this includes systems that many don't consider commuter rail, such as BART and Washington Metrorail (both rapid transit) and Baltimore's Light Rail line.
I would think that two of the major defining factors of commuter rail is that it carries passengers on existing railroad tracks that are still used for freight and/or Amtrak service and that it uses the same motive power as the freight/Amtrak service (that is, it doesn't use electric trains powered from overhead wires while the freight trains on the same trackage use diesel engines.
This rule seems to work well in most cases, because it excludes operations that laid and operate their own trackage on their own ROW or in/under/over streets (rapid transit and most light rail), operations that use abandoned freight lines (one of Dallas' DART light rail's new extensions and the D-Riverside light rail in Boston), and operations that share the tracks with freights but aren't powered the same way (Baltimore light rail). But then it also appears to exclude the Metra Electric line (which operates along Illinois Central ROW but is electrified while the IC freights and Amtrak passenger trains on the same line are diesel) and the South Shore line (again, electrified passenger trains but diesel freights).
I think all the freight in the NY area is diesel, though there isn't a lot of it, while most of the commuter rail service is electric.
I think the characteristics of commuter rail is a long ride, mile-wise, high speeds, high prices, few stops in urban neighborhoods, and the expectation of a seat for all. In contrast urban rail features many stops in urban neighborhoods, slow speeds (even for "rapid"), standees and low fares. The DC metro starts in the suburbs but stops closer in, so it is a subway.
Another characteristic is that commuter rail takes over former inter-city routes, and inter-city stations, dating from a time when what are now suburbs were small towns on the rail line.
[I think all the freight in the NY area is diesel, though there isn't a lot of it, while most of the commuter rail service is electric.]
All NYC-area freight service is diesel today. I recall reading that the Pennsylvania RR experimented with electric-powered freight trains operating through Penn Station many years ago. There also may have been some electric-powered freights operating along the Bay Ridge line in Brooklyn, until the line was de-electrified about 35 years ago.
By the way, saying that there isn't a lot of freight in the NYC area isn't correct. There is a huge amount of freight activity in New Jersey, and there's quite a bit in Rockland and Orange counties.
So, is the port washington line R/T then?
It's short (only a few miles - I'm sure there are longersubway lines than it) Has slow speeds, short distances between stations. Stops in urban areas (Main Street, Murry Hill, Broadway, Woodside)
It's not really commuter rail, and it's not really rapid transit.
The equipment sure looks like a glorified subway.
What is it then?
actually isnt what differentiates "commuter rail' from 'rapid transit' is that commuter rail is under the jurisdiction of the FRA (Federal Railway Administration) and has to follow their regs as opposed to rapid tranist which is not...(excepting, of course PATH which is FRA regulated cause it runs over the Amtrak ROW...)
The distinction is as follows IMHO, commuter rail is standard guage, connected to, and possibly previously part of the national rail system. operates by timetable and train order/block signal systems. The signal system usually DOES NOT include trip arms. Power may be diesel or electric, but clearances are AAR standard. 'Mass Transit' on the other hand is generally self contained and the trackage does not maintain AAR specs. All that said there are the odd exceptions which "prove the rule" CTA 's Red/Purple lines north of Wilson Ave are on former mainline trackage and included freight service in interchange with the former owner--Milwaukee Road. CTA was not to my knowledge subject to FRA.
Illinois Central Electric service--now Metra- makes many stops within Chicago, although far fewer than when the system went electric in 1926. The tickets are electronically collected, the platforms are high level, and there is limited owl service. In prior years the South Chicago branch which is at grade level in street medians most of its length hosted a way freight. So maybe the distinctions are really blurred all over. That's why we all are interested in some aspect or another isn't it?
The difference between inter & intra city rail lines, i.e. Rapid Transit vs. Commuter has been bluring in recent years as more and more small/medium size towns are putting back rail service, and larger cities are addiing new service e.g.
- VRE (92): Washington D.C. to Fredericksburg
- ACE (98): San Fran to Silicon Valley
- Tri-Rail (89): Almost to Miami
- Shoreline: NH to New London
- Coasters: San Diego
- MAX: Seattle, a light rail
It would seem that a large part of this group is interested in subways, light rail and all of the above, with a fair amount that are NOT interested in Amtrak, i.e. long haul passenger.
Mr t__:^)
MAX is Portland mostly prow outside of downtown
ACE runs STOCKTON to San Jose(but most alight @ Santa Clara station which connects to San Jose LRV line.
With exception of Max all you have named are diesel powered trains "hosted" on mainline RR's thus being 'commuter' rail. Though here too what is the difference between using ATK or Septa say from 30th st to Trenton? dollars and minutes Also note, in PRR days they sold monthly commute tickets for Philly NY riders both 44 ride punch and flash/"all you can eat" So what is a commuting trip?
David, Thanks for the corrections ! You're right MAX is a new light rail line running on O/H wire vs. diesel.
My only point was that a number of new companies have been formed in recent years (1990s) providing service where none had existed for years ... can we say "Rail-substitution" ... only if none of our BusTalk friends aren't listing.
BTW, the "May/June" issue of Mass Transit had a 20 page article about many of these new RxRs ... I counted a couple of dozen systems, which also incl. SEPTA, MBTA, LIRR, M-N and other big guys. The first two pages were on VRE & ACE so I should have got them right, sorry about that.
Mr t__:^)
There is a nice piece on ACE in the recent Rail News.
We certainly are in a pleasant renaissance of rail service for local travel. Who would have imagined thirty years ago? And indeed the distinctions between 'classes' of service have been blurred. For instance, what is PATCO
? I would call it a mass transit(subway)line. However the outer section is an old mainline route rebuilt with third rail. So what is it? Some years back the people @ The New Electric Railway Journal tried to ordain a new set of terms. Metro Rail for mainline RR commute services, Heavy Rail for what I call mass transit(your average subway/el/l), Light Rail (the expensive name for expensive reintroduction of trolley cars.
But how many of those services are using Amtrak equipment and crews? (like the MBTA rail service..) Not to mention the 'Amtrak' services which are basically funded and the schedules mandated by various state govts? (such as Amtraks Empire Service or the Vermonter, or the new service that the state of Oklahoma is sponsering btwn OK City and Dallas???)
Is the present day Connecticut Transit the same one that was known as the Connecticut Company or was there an intermediate company which ran the buses in the 1960's.Thanks in advance.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ive been studying ConnCo lately, but unfortunately Ive been studying the wrong diection for your question but I know ConnCo had buses up until the late 50's (Ive got old bus transfers) Branford has an older model ConnCo busand 2 newer models I believe, but I cant say for sure
Steve; Thanks. I made my first trip to Branford in 1965 when I was 15 by taking the NHRR "Murray Hill" from GCT to New Haven and then getting two buses to East Haven. I am trying to find out what company or agency was running the buses at that time.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Conn Co. was sold by the NHRR to E. Clayton Gengress (I think that is how you spell his name). He was some big mucky muck in the Security Insurance Co. of CT. He operated Conn Co. until some time in the mid 70's. When the state took over he would not sell the name Connecticut Co. A new company was formed operating charter coaches and school buses under the Conn Co name. I remember seeing the charter coaches on I-95 when I was driving coaches for Connecticut Limousine Service. They were using Eagles and the colors were blue & white. I think the charter coach division has stopped operating, but the company is still operating the school buses. They were based somewhere in the northern part of the state near Hartford.
Goerge: Thanks you very much. That's what I was looking for.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I rode the #7 City Subway today and the PCC's are sporting both trolley poles and pantographs though they are only using the poles. I understand the system will be shut down completely for two weeks in August to replace the wire.
At Orange Avenue Station outbound cars stop at a temporary platform east of Orange Av. The former outbound track at this location as well as the station platform will be removed. Outbound cars now use the alignment of the former inbound track at this location while inbound cars use a new alignment to the south of the former inbound track.
At Franklin Av about half the station has been removed and work is underway to re-extend the line over the former ROW that used to be used for turnbacks until the PCC's arrived.
This was about 12 noon and there were six cars in service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
PS There is a small English/Spanish Brochure entitled "Newark City Subway,On Track for Tomorrow" available on the cars.
The subway will be shutting down between August 21 and September 6.
When it reopens, I think tickets will be required to ride the subway, and fares will no longer be collected on board.
This is according to the brochure, but it only says "Beginning in late 1999, etc." and doesn't specifically say after Sep 6.
How will the transition to high platforms occur? will the PCCs have bridges installed like on commuter rail? When will the combined Branch Brook Park station open?
The New Jersey Transit LRVs (like some early 20th-century Boston cars, they look like 'two-rooms-and-a-bath') aren't high platform, are they? The center section, as I recall, is definitely low-floor for better ADA compliance. I haven't looked at one in a few months, but don't remember high platform construction on the cars or the stations.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
- Did you get to ride in the back seat with the window open as several of us SubTalkers did recently ?
- Did you buy a two-trip ticket & put it in your pocket after the first use ?
- Were you impressed with the condition the PCCs are in ? The crank for the side window still works and everything !
Thanks again to Sid of NJ for suggesting our "Field Trip", I'm glad I went TWICE.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston: This time I did not ride the rear seat. I was to busy looking out the front at the line. I do remember that rear seat especially in the days before the line was rebuilt. It was better than any roller coaster.
The cars of course are impecably maintained even to the fabric on the seats. That's what make riding this line such a great trip.
Actually I bought five separate tickets because I wanted to ride as many cars as possible and I jumped on and off a few times (at the stations,of course) for pictures.I'm going to make it a trip to return soon because nothing beats those PCC's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How much longer do you think we will still see those PCC cars in service? I'm breaking a sweat right now at the thought of these perfectly functioning cars getting scrapped (and a few sent to San Francisco). I keep getting conflicting reports of when the cars will retire. Heck, I even heard a (wonderful) rumor that several PCC cars will remain in the fleet!
Cheers,
MIKE
I don't think the PCCs can be replaced until the new shop in Bloomfield is completed. I just saw it today; they're still putting up the steel frame. I would guess there is another six to nine months to go.
What alignment will the line take to Bloomfield? What new stations? Will the line be upgraded to high platforms or will the LRVs have low platform boarding.
The extension curves west from the existing right-of-way and crosses Franklin Avenue at grade. Then it will use a ramp up to the West Orange branch (ex-Erie Railroad) and follows that line heading southwest. (Both the grade crossing and ramp are under construction now.) The new shops are on an large plot about a half mile from the old terminal. There will be a new passenger station at Grove Street, just off Bloomfield Avenue, right next to the shops. There may also be an intermediate station at Belmont Avenue, although the town of Belleville had been opposing that idea.
The new LRVs will be have a partial low-floor design, so the existing platforms can remain. They and the cars for the Hudson-Bergen LRT are being built as one order.
There was a railway magazine article about a year or so ago about the Newark subway line and the PCCs. One of the comments made was the axles were starting to go on those cars, plus there has been some body rot similar to what is happening to the Redbirds. According to a quoted source in the article, "they've been patched and pasted with Bondo."
There was a most excelent article in the April '99 ed of Railpace. Shows many of the cars, incl. work cars and data on their history. It prepaired me very well for my two trips down the line.
Mr t__:^)
I just picked up (from eBay[plug]) a 1961 Official Railway Guide, and there are many delights inside, such as: The SIRT STILL showing freight service on the North shore and South Beach Branches....The South Brooklyn still in existance, with Transit Authority honchos as the 'corporate board'..and of course the LIRR using Dashing Dan as its symbol, not to mention showing all timetables...Now, heres my question: The NY Central pages dont show the current (1961) tables for the Hudson or Harlem lines, explainng that they "provide frequent commuter service on these lines" available on a seperate folder...Just how does the schedule today compare with the schedules in 'the good old days'?? (besides there now being thru Poughkeepsie-GCT service..) and the ridership??...just curious as always...
I have in my possession suburban timetables for both the Hudson and Harlem lines of the NYC - circa 1965. The suburban service today offers more trains - especially north of the "electrified" zones of the day, North White Plains and Croton-Harmon. There was however, if I'm remembering correctly, hourly owl service overnight.
I'll have to look for them in my NYC timetable box.
Jim K.
I have in my possession suburban timetables for both the Hudson and Harlem lines of the NYC - circa 1965. The suburban service today offers more trains - especially north of the "electrified" zones of the day, North White Plains and Croton-Harmon. There was however, if I'm remembering correctly, hourly owl service overnight.
I'll have to look for them in my NYC timetable box.
Jim K.
Chicago
Lou: As regards the Hudson Line serice almost all there was only one through train to NY in the rush hour. All others going north of Peekskill required a change at Croton. However this was supplemented by long haul trains to Albany and Buffalo which made stops in the commuter zone. There was a limited amout of through service to Peekskill. This was done by having a pair of RDC's tag on to an EMU train when in the electric sub-division.
Larry,RedbirdR33
This is from a Hudson Division Timetable dated 10/25/64
Here in Sydney, Australia, we have a couple of 'Subway' cafes. The walls are lined with parts of subway maps.
The one closest to me has maps of parts of the BMT, after the Willy Bridge opened (1909 ?), and pre Nassau St; the IRT to 242nd St, plus plans of City Hall and Brooklyn Bridge Station; and also come IND lines.
No doubt these exist in NY and the man here said the murals came from 'Head Office'!?
Has anyone a bit of background on these please?
If it's the same Subway sandwich shop chain that's all around the United States, the wall design would be the standard subway map reproduction from about 1947, with the photos of the now-closed City Hall station.
I do believe that's the Subway chain he's talking about. I was in Rockhampton, Queensland,Australia 2 years ago and they had a Subway restaraunt there as well.
A recent message on this topic listed an auction to be held on 31st July. Has anybody some news on what happened at the sale, please?
The History Channel had a show on tonight about New York City bridges built before 1940 which briefly touched on the problem of the Manhattan Bridge's subway tracks, going through the explanation about the "twisting" of the bridge when trains pass across.
The last 15 minutes spent more time dealing with the overall rehab on the Williamsburgh, as well as talking about what would happen if a suspension bridge failed. However, for those hoping for a quick return to full time serivce on the Broadway express, the closing lines
about what's ahead for the three bridges wasn't hopeful.
"The Williamsburgh will have a new subway track..
"The Brooklyn a new deck...
"The Manhattan, new paint."
Since they talked to city bridge officals during the show, and they said the Willie B would be fixed in the near future, it didn't sound like anyone involved with the repairs was ready to promise the Manhattan would be anywhere near ready anytime soon, though I'm sure the new coat of paint will make it look nice and shiny for a while.
The only thing was I hoped they would have talked a little about the Hells Gate. I know it's only a rail bridge but I would like to know a little more of it history.
Check out www.nycroads.com, then under Crossings of Metro NYC, there is a fairly extensive piece about the Hells Gate Bridge.
What about the Queensboro Bridge? They mentioned that its cantilevered construction was chosen specifically to accomodate trains. Now there are none running on it. It also went to some lengths to disparage the bridge. Also, I have been on some railfan tours on which the consensus seemed to be that the 59th Street Bridge is "a nightmare."
In my opinion, it is one of the more interesting, I dare say beautiful bridges, in New York. After all, all of the suspension bridges are a bit redundant. To each his own, I guess.
According to Under the Sidewalks of NY, the BMT wanted to run subway trains over the Queensborough, but the city was afraid it couldn't take the weight, and made them build the 60th St tunnel instead. No such luck for Brooklyn. The irony is, the Queensborough is probably much better able to carry trains than the Willie B and Manhattan -- especially if the trains were in the middle.
The Second Ave. el trains were in the upper middle when they ran over the Queensborough. Of course, now, if they ever wanted in the distant future to route a Second Ave. subway train back over the bridge, the only space available would be the outer roadways, and we know what running trains on the outside section of a bridge can do.
[ Re: possibly putting trains back on the Queensborough Bridge ]
I'm not sure the problem with the Manhattan Bridge is that the trains run on the outside of the bridge so much as that the load has been historically unbalanced--that is, the north side tracks have always been more heavily used than the south.
The current situation must be even worse, with heavy service on the north side and NO service on the south side.
The Ben Franklin Bridge (PA-NJ) has carried trains for sixty years or more on tracks outboard of the roadways. The difference is that eastbound trains use one side and westbounds the other. Presumably any trains on the Queensborough would do the same.
Well, at last I found out why the LIRR keeps the DE30ACs idling when they are not running. A funny thing, if the loco shuts down, you can't flush the toilets on the bi-levels. Found that out today as my train coasted to a stop along the central branch when our loco balked and quit. Suggestion, it the loco quits on your train, be the first one into the lavatory - in case it's gonna be a long time until they get the loco restarted.
Haven't been in the lavatory of the new bi-levels yet, but if past experience is an indicator, you take your senses and possibly your life in your hands using any LIRR rolling stock lavatory!
The washrooms on the BiLevels are actually leaps and bounds above those on the other cars. Firstly, they're _huge_ -- ADA complaiancy, you know, but you could have 4 people stand in there comfortably. They have a sink with running water, a nice vanity (mirror, etc), a hand dryer, soap, etc.
Currently, they're even pretty clean.
My guess is that in 2 years from now, 75% of the sinks will be broken (or they'll never fill up the water tanks), the toilets will go a month or so between emptying the tank, and the rooms will be cleaned about once every two weeks.
Wait, doesn't running the locos all the time put lots of strain on the engine and shortens the life of the machine?
[ Wait, doesn't running the locos all the time put lots of strain on the
engine and shortens the life of the machine? ]
LIRR maintenance will probably shorten the life of the machine more.
Actually, that's not really fair. The "classic diesels", the GP38's and MP15's have actually been kept running pretty reliably for a long time. This leads me to believe that they probably have a decent Diesel Loco Maintenance program.
On the other hand, they don't seem to have a concern for the customer, and their MU maintenance leaves something to be desired.
The recent times article mentioned the dismal MDBF for the M1/M3 fleet. I wonder what the MDBF is for the GP38-2 fleet, and how that compares to the industry.
EMD locomotives will run forever as long as you keep lube oil and cooling water in them!!
Just like Detroit Diesel engines in buses.
And the thing about EMD or Detroit engines, if something breaks, you fix the part, start it up again, and it's ready for service. If it's a Cummins engine, you just throw away the engine and put a whole new one in.
Diesel locomotive prime movers are designed to idle for long periods of time. Many railroads never shut the engine down once it gets cold out.
This is all due to design of the engine. Far more problems can occur when an engine has been shut down than when left idling. Freeze ups and other moisture related problems can occur from shut downs.
If a diesel engine is left running (as long as it has coolant in it, and lube oil) it is better for the engine, as it will not expand/contract with the cooling from shutdown and heating from restarting.
If we were able to leave our car engines running all the time, they'd last longer too -- no wear from expansion or contraction.
Considering the way the LIRR maintains the restrooms in their MU's and the diesel coaches, I think that your comments are not so farfetched.
That's because when the loco isn't running, there's no HEP. Not only won't the toilets flush, but you won't have A/C or heat. Perhaps in the summer it makes sense to keep them running just to keep the cars cool.
The MNCRR shuts the locos down in winter and summer. When they open the cars an hour later its still cool inside.
That's what the stadnby power pugs at the terminals that the LIRRR installed are for. Of course, it seems they're not being used, and likely won't ever be, but why should that stop the LIRR from spending money on installing them?
Do any of you guys know where I can find good, color photogrphs of the Marcy Avenue el platform from around the mid to late 1960's? One of my "hobbies" is oil painting and I've decided to make that my next subject as soon as I'm finished with the painting I'm currently working on. Detailed photos of the platforms are especially appreciated. Thanks, Salvatore.
There is a photo in the car section of R-16 6486 at Marcy Ave. circa 1964. It's the last car of a #10 train.
I was watching TV this morning and saw a piece about a mini-series about an earthquake in NYC.
One clip showed a subway car(it looked like a car from the Bloor-Danforth line to me) being jostled in the tunnels.
It brought to mind the question, is any portion of the subway prepared in the event of something like that happening.
I'm pretty sure when the subway of Los Angeles was built, they built it to withstand those constant earthquakes(but I personally think they still have no business building one out there!).
I imagine that the oly portions might be the newly constructed like the Archer Avenue of 63rd St. lines.
Am I right or wrong?
I don't know if any specific planning for earthquakes has gone into ANY construction in New York. The risk of a major earthquake, such as hits California from time to time, is miniscule on the east coast.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually I think I remember reading recently that all new buildings (I don't know the start date of this) are required to follow some seismic activity related building code.
Mike
Subways in both Los Angeles and San Francisco were designed to withstand earthquakes up to 8.0 on the Richter scale. In the Loma Prieta Quake in 1989, BART suffered no damage in its tunnels. In contrast, the Bay Bridge failed, and BART carried record numbers of people from the East Bay while the bridge was being repaired.
Personally, I feel safer underground in a tunnel completely surrounded by earth than above gound in a free-standing structure. In a quake, the tunnel moves with the surrounding earth, while the free-standing structure may collapse.
Broadway El Steve: Why do you think Los Angeles has "no business" building a subway? I much prefer my 8-minute ride to work on the Red Line over a 45-minute ordeal on an overcrowded MTA bus, as would any sane person. In a city as large as Los Angeles, buses alone are totally inadequate for the job.
As this Rail Historian said in another thread, the subway is build like a elephant. This elephant can withstand ANY earthquake on any scale. It's built to last forever. However, there will never to earthquake in New York City.
There was a quake -- not a big one, but a quake -- in New York back in 1888, the same year the great blizzard hit that sparked the demand to build the IRT. Obviously, the snow stopping mass transit was considered a bigger concern than any shaking that would destroy the tunnels.
Never say never.
There actually is a fault line running under Central Park.
With all of the unprepared structures, from tunnels to bridges to skyscrapers(which would be even more dangerous since there are so many in New York), and unprepared people, a quake like Northridge which only damaged L.A., would crush New York(not meaning to downplay what has happened on the west coast).
We had a long thread about this during the early days of SubTalk. There is a fault in the NYC area; earthquakes are not uncommon. The probablity of The Big One happening is remote, but not impossible. I'll try to find the scientific reference again if I can.
Well, that didn't take long :0) Here's a N.Y. State Earthquake Page
During family get-togethers, my mother likes to tell the tale of how she slept through an earthquake here in the early 80's. When she awoke to find cabinet doors ajar and pictures fallen off the stand, she thought she had a break-in, only to see the news later that day and find out it was an earthquake.
It's just as hard to wake her up now:)
Todd, thanks for the link. I had the big quake in the northeast occurring in 1888 in another post, but apparently it was four years earlier.
Also, I think the Manhattan fault line crosses the island from 14th Street on the East River to 125th on the Hudson (If I remember a 30-year-old Daily News story right)
I said that half in jest.
Just meaning that the last place one would think to put something in the earth is a place where the earth is constantly moving.
While I do agree that in a city like L.A. buses alone aren't going to do much, they can't unless there's more buses and more people willing to lose their cars and ride them.(I don't now if this is still accurate, but as of the '90 census, there were more people in the L.A. area then in Greater New York)
I don't mean to sound pessimistic, but I don't have high hopes for the future of rail transit in L.A.
But, as has happened before, I could be proven wrong:)
In my personal opinion the subways or acutally all rail service in or out of Manhattan faces a greater threat from a Hurricane than and earthquake. The main problem with a hurricane is that it brings massive flooding. Now if even a catagory 1 storm (hurricanes run from cat. 1-5, 5 being the strongest) would cause major flooding of the tunnels. I've been thru 4 hurricanes and I feel with New York City on the east coast basically right next to the ocean a hurricane produces a far greater threat than a eartquake. I'm not sayng earthquake should be taken lightly, I'm just playing the percentages.
To whom it may concern,
Just so there's no confusion on this matter:
The 1990 census recorded 19,549,649 people in the New York City metropolitan area and 14,531,529 people in the Los Angeles metropolitan area. The "1994 updates" which the census bureau provides showed 19,796,430 people in the NYC area and 15,302,275 people in the LA area. The NYC area's growth rate was 1.3 percent and the LA area's growth rate was 5.3 percent.
However, it is in terms of the actual cities (i.e., political entities) that the differences are more apparent. The 1990 census recorded 7,322,564 New Yorkers and only 3,485,557 Angelenos. The 1994 updates were 7,333,253 New Yorkers and only 3,448,613 Angelenos. In other words, the City of New York gained population while the City of Los Angeles lost some.
This data was from the Census Bureau.
"Greater Metropolitan Los Angeles" also takes in about double the area that the New York Metro area encompasses, about 60 miles to the east and west.
["Greater Metropolitan Los Angeles" also takes in about double the area that the New York Metro area encompasses, about 60 miles to the east and west.]
Dunno, the NYC Metro area also covers a huge geographical area. North-South, it extends from Beach Haven Heights, New Jersey (southernmost part of Ocean County) to Tivoli, New York (northermost part of Dutchess County). East-West, it goes from Port Jervis to Montauk.
I don't believe that the Los Angeles Metro area's geographical extent could be any larger.
As per the 1998 State and Metro Area Data Book (census bureau), the area of the LA CMSA is 33,966 square miles, compared with 10,165 square miles for the NY CMSA. The NY CMSA extends from New Haven to Trenton, and from Montauk to Pike County P.A. But the Riverside/San Bernadino section of the LA CMSA has 27,000 square miles of desert all by itself.
LA is more spread out even in inner areas. The NY PMSA, including NYC, Westchester, Rockland, and Putnam has 1,147 square miles for 8.6 million people. Los Angeles County has 4060 square miles for 9.1 million people.
No wonder the subway won't pay out there.
[As per the 1998 State and Metro Area Data Book (census bureau), the area of the LA CMSA is 33,966 square miles, compared with 10,165 square miles for the NY CMSA. The NY CMSA extends from New Haven to Trenton, and from Montauk to Pike County P.A. But the Riverside/San Bernadino section of the LA CMSA has 27,000 square miles of desert all by itself.]
If you exclude the sparesly populated desert area of San Bernadino County, then it seems as if the Los Angeles CMSA would be about 7,000 square miles - a big area, to be sure, but smaller than the New York CMSA.
Isn't the 60 miles to the west of LA pretty much taken up by about 55 miles of water?
Yeah, if I recall correctly, population DESENITY-WISE the New York area would win hands down.
To the east and west of LA proper are less densely populated areas like Glendate to the east and Thousand Oaks (in Orange County) to the west.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug aka BMT Man: Don't forget Arcadia, population 45,000. That's my city and a great place to teach and live. New York is much more concentrated while Los Angeles is so spread out it would take billions to rail all the cities with a unified rapid transit system. However, I think it would be worth the effort. The traffic around here is unbelievable----unbelievably bad and choked. Some of our freeways serve as parking lots during peak periods of the day. Come to think of it sometimes other than peak periods of the day.
Going out from Santa Moncia Blvd., yes, but most of Los Angeles proper is to the north and east of that area.
Take a look at a map of the area and see where the coast line curves west and goes about 100 miles before going back north yet. Cities all the way out to Santa Barbara are now "commuter suburbs," with people driving east on U.S. 101 to their jobs.
Dense enough population for big traffic jams and (maybe) extended light rail, but definitely not enough for a subway.
The political structures of NYC and LA are so different that any comparison other than (maybe) metropolitan area would be inappropriate.
Any other comparison is highly manipulable. For example, if you compare the population of LA COUNTY with NY COUNTY, LA would blow NY away.
Sir,
You are correct in pointing out the differences at the "county" level. However, what must be remembered is that the City of Los Angeles and the City of New York are, in fact, comparable entities to each other in that each elects a City Council and a Mayor, each has a common police force, each has city-wide zoning ordinances, et cetera. Although I believe you are also correct in saying the best comparisons are on an area-wide vs. area-wide basis, keep in mind that the political "age" of the NYC area (settled by the English and part of the U.S. while L.A. was still ruled by colonial Spain) means that there are few large "unincorporated county" areas, as there are all over the western states.
NYC is made up of five New York State counties because of the "quirk" of the 1898 consolidation where NYC grew by a combination "merger/annexation" as opposed to "annexation" alone. (Keep in mind that The Bronx is actually New York State's newest county, having been formed around the turn of the century.) Los Angeles grew by the more traditional western U.S. model where territory was continually annexed.
The other posts have struck only half the "nail on the head", so to speak. Density alone is not the only pre-requisite for rail rapid transit to prosper - trip origins and destinations must be somewhat concentrated as well. The two go somewhat hand-in-hand, but the single key variable is the land development pattern. If everything looks like the San Fernando Valley, then rail certainly will have a hard time of it.
However, we must not fall into the "L.A. is a car city" trap. There are certain corridors in the L.A. area (Wilshire, for example) which have densities that would justify rail. And East L.A. could certainly have used rail, but now it won't get built thanks to the boondoggle that is the LAMTA. Suffice to say that although buses will always be able to "do more" in a city like L.A., there are several areas that could have/will benefit from the rail mode in the western metropolis. (And L.A. was really "built" by the Red Cars; it has only relatively recently been substantially "rebuilt" by the freeways.)
Finally, also remember that in terms of urban studies, the fact that the U.S.A.'s largest city is twice as large as its second largest means New York is what urbanists call a "primate city". Believe it or not, this is seen as a sign of a Third World economy. I always had to remind some of the foreign students I went to school with that, as you stated in your post, the true comparison is metro area vs. metro area.
I think that concept was debunked. Most of the Third World countries with one large city were too small to support more than one city. Larger Third World countries (ie. India, China, Brazil) had more than one large city. The primate city theorists then claimed that each was an imperialist primate city in its own region, but what does that mean.
As a rule, if I learned it in grad school, I've decided its bunk.
For an excellent commentary on the history of rapid transit in the LA area, see "Who framed Rodger Rabbit?"
[For example, if you compare the population of LA COUNTY with NY COUNTY, LA would blow NY away.]
It's an interesting coincidence that the populations of Los Angeles County and New York City are quite close.
ahhh..its all gonna fall into the Pacific after the Pacific after the first of the year anyway..so what does it matter?.......gotcha!
Ah, if California fell into the sea, just think who we'd be losing.
Tom Leykis.
That would be bad.
Mexicans?
Tom who?
Reading the discussions of whether Hillary/Rudy/Chuck etc. ride the subway/have ridden the subway/could even be pictured riding the subway, I have more a relevant question: how much of the management of MTA/NYCT/CTA/WMATA etc. use the product.
This isn't just to show loyalty to the "product" or that they're suffering with the rest of us. You can bet the managers of McDonald's eat burgers and Egg McMuffins. Any good business is intimitely familiar with the product.
Historically, my lowest marks go to the New York City Transit Authority, c.1960. The TA provided an indoor, guarded, parking garage (between the 1st floor and subway level) for execs. But I don't give them bottom marks for that. I award that honor for inaugurating the least known and most exclusive express service on the system for those execs. 1960 (give or take) was when the TA inaugurated an express elevator from the garage level to the offices on the 13th floor. No other stops. So the bigwigs not only wouldn't have to ride the subway, they wouldn't even have to take a chance on sharing an elevator with some stiff who did ride the subway.
This was so embarassing that after some months they added a stop on the Subway Concourse level in case some exec wanted to actually look at the big train set that was rumored to exist in 370 Jay's basement.
Top marks go to the BMT c.1930. The BMT also provided parking for its execs. However, the parking was in Coney Island Yard. From there they had their choice of lines to get to the office.
Who out there knows what the situation on the various systems is today?
For my part, I know that at least some of the management staff of the LIRR use the road. This may be less out of commitment to "the product" than the fact that the Jamaica headquarters are (a) super convenient to the locales where most of the "suits" live and (b) driving to Jamaica is a pain in the butt.
[For my part, I know that at least some of the management staff of the LIRR use the road. This may be less out of commitment to "the product" than the fact that the Jamaica headquarters are (a) super convenient to the locales where most of the "suits" live and (b) driving to Jamaica is a pain in the butt.]
But not the Top (Rotten) Banana.
For that matter, how many politicians use any part of the transit system?
Politicians have the excuse that "they'd be recognized, it could cause a security problem." Hillary uses this excuse to use Air Force Jets instead of commercial flights in the event some fellow passenger in First Class, maddened on caviar and champagne, assaults her because he didn't like the cover design of "It Takes a Village."
But agency officials have no excuse at all.
Massachusetts Governor Michael Dukakis took the Boston MBTA Green Line to work/from almost every day when he was in office. He had an aide or state cop with him, but he made a point to talk to his consistuents on the trolley whenever possible.
Maybe if he had won his quest for the White House, he would have used the MetroRail to go to meetings at the Pentagon?
Maybe if he had won his quest for the White House, [Dukakis] would have used the MetroRail to go to meetings at the Pentagon?
For sure he shouldn't have taken a tank :-)
I can understand security concerns for national scale politicians (even Ms. Clinton), but what about the local politicians?
Anyone ever seen Rick Lazio on the LIRR? Or Jerry Nadler on the 1 train? These are the folks who make the decisions on transit spending or the lack thereof, yet the only time I've seen my local politicians near the subway is when they're pressing flesh before Election Day.
Why should they use mass transit when people like the mayor can be clocked at high rates of speed driven by paid city employees? What is even worse is the MTA's own top guns being driven to board meetings when they own passes that allowed them to ride for free on any MTA bus or train line, including the railroads. I can only say that ex president David L. Gunn rode the F and A trains to work on a daily basis to Jay St station. I don't think anybody that high up today notices that the R-32 signs are kind of small.
Gunn was also the one in charge when the MTA finally realized the system was totally falling apart and began the train and station repairs in the mid-1980s. We're not yet back to the Bill Ronan era, but padlocking the Jay St. parking garage wouldn't be a bad idea.
yes they're certainly far too small!
Steve, can they put a brighter lamp inside them?
Wayne
Yeah, like the LED backed dots used in new bus signs! They are much more visible.
[These are the folks who make the decisions on transit spending or the lack thereof, yet the only time I've seen my local politicians near the subway is when they're pressing flesh before Election Day.]
Oh yes, on of the things I enjoy most about the campaigning during the election cycle is when I must trying to avoid the dim-wits waiting at the top of the stairs at Belmont/Sheffield Station on the 'L' to shake my hand.
The point you make is correct about them NOT being anywhere near the subway, 'L' or bus; however, we allow them to get away with it. Even though they do not go near public transit, if we the riders, oh about 10% of us, sat down and took 20 minutes to write them a letter on a routine basis complaining about the service, damn straight they would start listening. The problem is that only one or two of us take the time – and look like the typical complainer to the politician. If 10%, or even 5%, of the riders hit their elected representative’s office with "what is wrong" on public transit, some action may be taken.
What we forget is that in our system of politics, the squeaky wheel gets the grease, an interest group has more clout than a few individuals
Jim K.
Chicago
This EMPLOYEE is actually looking forward to making a trip from College Point to South Ferry by mass transit next week. I'll start with one of our coaches, but will need to bring my MC because the TA won't let those "private" guys ride for free.
IMHO I agree that mngt employees should use the product, if not daily why not choose it over company/private car. The only down side for my meeting is that I'll be away from the office a little longer this way. For the guys comming from 130 Livingston Plaza it's a no brainer. But the other attendees will probally come by company car, that's their loss.
BTW, I've been to a couple of meetings in the Presidents' conference room on the 13th floor of 370 Jay Street, the express now stops at the lobby level too. It's a big room but otherwise just a room, i.e. didn't see any champague glasses, hot tubes, etc. Just a lot of subway maps on the wall with pins in them.
Mr t__:^)
Just a lot of subway maps on the wall with pins in them.
Ooooooo, that's scary.
When they stick one of those pins in the subway map, do you suppose the T/O whose train is in that station says "ouch"?
I wonder if one of those maps has pins by the Manhattan Bridge. It could use some UNDERpinning.
Rim shot!
I saw a notice yesterday that Motive Power, Inc. will be merging with WABCO next month (that's when the shareholder votes are to take place). Motive Power's primary work involves diesel loco repair and rebulding. In fact, they were just awarded a contract by the Boston MBTA to refurbish 25 of its commuter rail diesel locos.
I hope that doesn't mean no more mass transit calendars :-(
While riding on the SIR yesterday, I re-discovered something I had originally noticed years ago---the signals remain unlit and are not illuminated until a train enters the block, which is different from what I have observed in the subways over the years. Also, in the signal face (which is round) two green lights are placed at the 3 & 9 o'clock positions, the red at 12 and 6 o'clock, with the yellow at 1:30 and 7:30 o'clock. Where else is this type of configuration used?
The Baltimore and Ohio Railroad used color-position approach-lit signals. Since the SIR was originally a property of the B&O, that's why the signal systems differ. There is also a white lamp at the top, indicating that if the signal is red, it's a stop and proceed signal. There is an additional aspect (10 and 4) but I've never seen it.
-Hank
amtrack is gone over to color position signals now.
check out this site http://raildata.railfan.net is has the rules for the sir signals plus more info on railroad in the nj area.
Has the MTA published and distributed the new 1999 New York City Subway Guide?
This is the correct name, right?
Thanks
This question has come up several times in the past few months. I think the answer is no.
Mr t__:^)
The last one was 1998 !!!
Which would logically mean that the one following would be 1999.
The MTA has not issued a New York City Subway Guide since 1997.
As of 1998 the MTA has issued "The Map" containing the Subway Map on one side and the Commuter Rail guide on the other. (unless you mean something else).
Our friend Allan mentioned a "Lisa Lou American Glamorana" MC that a couple of collectors here need some help finding where to buy them. Can the Subway-Buff or any other friend/collector help us on this one?
BTW, The Mets Int'l set of six wasn't made avail. today at the City Search, Web site, as promised.
Repeat of a tip for City Search, make a friend so you can buy four Fun Passes to make the min $15 & not get stuck with them all yourself. My "friend" is buying the new "Rails" MC today (I already have the Stations and Wheels cards in the series ... it's more fun then buying them all at once ?!)
Mr t__:^)
The "Lisa Lou American Glamorana" $4 Fun Pass is only available at the
Transit Museum Store at GCT. This is to coincide with an exhibition of her work in the Vanderbilt Hall.
Wow ... I guess that is a small issue, i.e. will be a high priced collectors item in a few years. I had better RUN up there & get 1.
Many thanks Allan, Mr t__:^)
1. When did the Manhattan Els become electrified?
2. Where exactly were the BRT shops on the other side of the Brooklyn Bridge? How close were they to City Hall?
You have asked the Rail Historian a couple of neat questions:
The Second Avenue was electified in 1902. Experimental test on the 34th Street Shuttle were conducted around 1900.
The storage yard existed to the east of the Sands Street Terminal which dead end tracks at Tilliary Street. No shop on the Park Row side of the Brooklyn Bridge.
What about the 3rd, 6th and 9th Ave Els?
--Mark
The Rail Historian says the first to be electrified was the 2nd Avenue EL in 1902. I answered the question.
The question was, When did the Manhattan Els become electrified? , not which was the first to become electrified.
You identified the 2nd Ave El. What about the others? When did they become electrified?
--Mark
After some hard searching, I found my copy of "Under the Sidewalks of New York"(actually it's borrowed).
Inside was a timeline that stated the Manhattan els became electrified in 1903.
As for the BRT shops, there WAS one at Park Row, and there was a photo to boot. It looked like an indoor facility, so I don't know how large it was, but it did exist.
Before 1898, the BRT (or predecessor) shop WAS near City Hall.
The Rail Historian has seen the show on the History Channel on New York City Bridges. Robert Moses kicked many people out of their homes without compensation. At least Moses worked for 9 city agencies and collected money from only one. He definitely was not money hungury like the politicials. The Cross Bronx Expressway killed him. Moses did not drive and did not have a driver's license. This is truely ironic.
What do you think his ten commandments were?
1) No rapid transit.
2) The middle class rules.
3) Automobiles are supreme.
4) Build plenty of bridges and parkways.
5) Life is a Beach like Jones Beach.
6) If you get in my way you will be evicted.
7) Bigger is better.
8) Roebling is my hero.
9) The rich shall have no mansions
10) Collect the toll.
Since he left, New York has some new commandments.
1) Not in my neighborhood.
2) We're moving out anyway, so run up the debt, and don't build.
3) I've got mine; more jobs just help newcomers.
4) We insiders deserve our parking spaces.
5) Mass transit is great -- for other people. Lets keep it just the way it is.
6) If you can't do something you should be able to do, you just haven't paid off enough people.
7) The way to make money in real estate is to break the law; legalize later.
8) It was great to be affluent in New York in the 1920s. Lets try to go backward in time.
9) Do you have a condo in Florida yet? What surburb do your kids live in?
10) It should be free -- if you can't afford to maintain it for nothing, let if fall apart, since we'll be gone anyway.
It's an oft-repeated story, about how Robert Moses destroyed stable Bronx neighborhoods - thereby setting in motion the entire borough's decline - in order to build the Cross Bronx Expressway. But the real moral of the story is that repetition does not make something true. Moses-bashers (and they are legion) conveniently ignore the fact that most of the affected neighborhoods were already in a gradual decline well before the bulldozers came along. This is particularly true of East Tremont, the nieghborhood most frequently cited as a victim of the roadbuilders. New York was not immune to the growth of suburbanization after World War Two, and consequently saw an outflow of the middle class - and an influx of the poor - in places like East Tremont.
Another thing to consider is that the Cross Bronx is much narrower than what one would expect for an interstate highway. Whole neighborhoods were not destroyed by its construction. At worst, the Expressway cut a narrow swath through the surrounding areas, in most cases only a few buildings wide. Stable neighborhoods could have withstood the disruption. Neighborhoods already in decline could not.
Peter, I usually agree with and enjoy your posts.
The excerpt below is one of yours regarding Robert Moses and the impact of building interstate highways through neighborhoods. Can you substantiate your statement? Can you offer some examples of established neighborhoods that had an interstate run through their center and survive in a healthy way?
I'm referring to your quote below regarding the effect of the Cross Bronx Expwy and it's impact on surrounding neighborhoods like E. Tremont-
"Whole neighborhoods were not destroyed by its construction. At worst, the Expressway cut a narrow swath through the
surrounding areas, in most cases only a few buildings wide. Stable neighborhoods could have withstood the disruption.
Neighborhoods already in decline could not."
Operative phrase -- control group.
The South Bronx had a highway built through it and declined.
Windsor Terrace had the Prospect Expressway built through it and did not decline.
Brooklyn Heights had the BQE built through it and turned around.
Bushwick, Bed Stuy, East New York did not have highways built through them and declined.
North Philly did not have a highway built through it and declined.
Etc. Etc.
Caro's finesse of this issue (read the book) is based on the assertion that "white flight," while occuring all around East Tremont, had not hit at the moment construction occurred, but occured elsewhere. He bases this on a survey of elderly Jews who remained in the area by a Jewish charity. Thus, he claims, that East Tremont was exceptional and would have remained a middle-income while neighborhood without the expressway.
That is a weak argument indeed. Often, the elderly do not move until they are a small minority. But their children were not staying, and the people moving in were poor, before the expressway.
It is not incorrect to say highways (and elevated trains) have impacts, but the Caro book exaggerated the damage they do. The belief in his argument has probably done more damage to the city than the highways. What has gotten built since that book came out? Someone should write a book about Caro, called "The Affluent NIMBY Apologist."
Well,
While not technically a interstate highway(just US Route 1) the Roosevelt Expwy(which becomes Roosevelt Blvd. east of Broad St. was built through the Logan section of Philly, and it has actually worsened. Though I wasn't around when it was built, my understanding was that it was a nicer area to live.
In Philadelphia the areas that have highways going through them(Kensington[or the Badlands south of Girard] has I-95, Grays Ferry and west-South Philly have I-76).
I-676 cuts through just north of Center City, but is in the area with museums, libraries and high-priced apartments.
Let's compare the subway extensions while RM was in power to the number built since he was kicked out circa 1968 before we jump to any conclusions. What have we gotten since then? Archer Ave?
The 63rd St tunnel to nowhere.
[The excerpt below is one of yours regarding Robert Moses and the impact of building interstate highways through neighborhoods. Can you substantiate your statement? Can you offer some examples of established neighborhoods that had an interstate run through their center and survive in a healthy way?]
My hometown of Waterbury, Connecticut is an excellent example. In the early 1960s, Interstate 84 was built right through the center of the city in an east-west direction. At about the same time, state Route 8 (a four-lane, limited access highway) went all the way through the city in a north-south direction, meeting I-84 in a huge elevated interchange just SW of downtown. While I'm not old enough to remember things before the highways, I had heard many times about the massive disruptions that resulted. I would guess that the percentage Waterbury's properties that were condemned for the highways was far greater than the percentage of the Bronx's properties that were lost for the Expressway.
And yet, nothing too traumatic happened. The stable neighborhoods by and large remained that way, and the neighborhoods that had been deteriorating continued to deteriorate. While it's true that Waterbury is by and large a worse place than it was before the highways came, that is largely due to the loss of the city's industrial base in the 1970s, and the more or less contemporaneous influx of the poor and welfare-dependent.
One thing to keep in mind is that Waterbury never had a population density anywhere near as high as the Bronx's. It could be possible that highway construction has more deleterious effects in a high-density area, but I don't know for sure. As far as I'm concerned, Waterbury shows that highway construction is not as destructive to neighborhoods as sometimes feared.
My dad had to deal with Robert Moses at times, and he said he was an arrogant jerk. He also said LaGuardia had some of the same qualities (they both sound like a certain mayor currently in office, dosn't they?) -- they know what they want, and they know it's right, and that's the way it's going to be.
In New York, having a powerful personality at the top is sometimes the only way things are going to get done. I think Caro's book divides Moses' career into the relatively "Good Bob" -- the Moses prior to his lost 1934 election for Governor -- and "Bad Bob" -- who had gained enough control through TBTA and other agencies to get what he wanted, and that didn't include anything underground, be it the subway or vehicular tunnels.
Not all highways cause neighborhoods to delcline, especially if they are near an already desireable location (try the Sutton Place apartments above the FDR Drive). But since most people would prefer not to live next to an Interstate if they can help it, putting a highway in a marginal neighborhood increases its unattractivness to those in the middle class who can afford to move away.
What about Bushwick, it declined considerably, yet no highway was ever built through it. I doubt people moved out because they were afraid of the Bushwick Expressway (I-78, unbuilt).
Robert Moses=Death Knell for public transportation!
If RM was solely responsible for the death of Public Transport, why did other cities' transport also die?
For those who didn't know, the Rail Historian says the original Contract One subway of the IRT opened to the VIP on October 27, 1904 at 2:34pm. Opened to the general public at 7:00pm that evening.
what was the motorman's name?
Well....the mayor at the time, McClellan, was supposed to run the train for 500 ft, then turn the train over to a regular motorman...HOWEVER, being a NYC mayor (not to mention the son of a Civil War general...), he decided to run the train all the way up to about 103 st or so. (imagine that happening today??)
This is all documented at Day One on the IRT.
Oh, I know it's all in Day One, Uptown Downtown, Under the Sidewalks
and countless other places. Sorry, I forgot to include the
ASCIIgraphic for a rhetorical question in my original quip.
I think my point was to note that Rail Historian is, in the third
person no less, passing off FAQs as if it were obscure information.
I'll bet even money that Gibbs 3352 ran on that day, if it was on the property.
Someone suggested that since the LIRR was not appropriate to all the verbiage concerning those two protagonists, the title should be changed. Sea Beach Man agrees and we can now call it Rudy vs Hillary or Hillary vs Rudy if you're a mind to. There is a lot of interest in this potential race and I've already said that when I come to New York this Friday, it will be the last time I do if hilarious Hillary wins that seat. As a native New Yorker, I know your state is a great one, and I would believe that you wouldn't let some ambitious carpetbagger who has never shown any interest in the state come in and purport to represent you. I know that if she tried that in my California, we'd make short work of her in a hurry. While riding on the magnificent NYC subway the next 10 days or so, I will try to bury my consternation over the possibility of having that lady getting close to the Presidency which anyone with a brain knows that's her intent. A few more replies to this and then let's see if we can talk of something more pleasant like the subway. Chao
If Hillary does run, and if Rudy wins by a nose, we'll all have this to say about her: Close, but no cigar.
RIM SHOT!!!
Steve B-8AVEXP: Beautiful. That's what that ragdoll deserves--A cigar.
Can you imagine any woman worth her salt that would stay with a guy who is such a cheating moral degenerate? Anyway, please tell me what train is the 8AVEXP. I'm not sure but I will ride it when I get to New York this weekend. By the way, are you a New Yorker?
Many women stay with cheating men (or vice versa) for many reasons. I don't think that is any indicator of the first ladies character or moral values. Personally, I do not care about the President & Monica or Hilly and Vince (except that Vince 'committed suicide'). What concerns me is the state in which my family and I live and what will become of it if Hilly becomes a senator.
In my opinion, the two smallest books in the world are "Hillary Clinton and Ethics" and "We Can Do Without Mass Transit" by Hillary Clinton. The transit systems of NYState lost a friend when Al D'Amato was not re-elected in favor of "Subway cars have 7 wheels- Chuckie". With Chuckie and Hilly tag teaming the MTA, by the year 2006, The 6th 7th and 8th Avenue subway tunnels will be converted to Subterranian housing developments called Whitewater-East, Phase I, Phase II and Phase III. And about people getting to work, Hilly will say, "Let-em walk. If it's good enough for the Arkansas hilbillies, it's good enough for these bumpkins too."
(Hillary and getting to work).
More like if we stop hassling people about getting off welfare, they won't need a subway to get to work. And if deteriorating mass transit causes all the businesses to leave, traffic will decline, and the environment will improve.
Larry: Hassling people to get off welfare is what is needed to get the indolent to contribute their fair share to society. For those who really need some help because of physical problems I know Americans have good hearts and would now allow people to really need it to suffer.
I suspect Larry's tongue was in his cheek on this one, Sea Beach Man. From his previous postings, I seriously doubt that he thinks an economic downturn in NYC would be good for the environment and therefore desirable.
[I suspect Larry's tongue was in his cheek on this one, Sea Beach Man. From his previous postings, I seriously doubt that he thinks an economic downturn in NYC would be good for the environment and therefore desirable.]
I also believe that Larry was trying to make the point - which he's done before, and which few politicians seem to grasp - that getting more people off welfare and into the job market will be good for transit ridership. Some if not many of them will be using subways and buses to get to their new jobs. In contrast, people who are on welfare generally aren't heavy transit users; even if they have the money to ride, they've no place to go.
John and Pete and Larry: I embarrassingly stand corrected.
Steve: Then it up to you New Yorkers to make certain that she doesn't get into the Senate, and make certain that Chuckie doesn't make it a second time when his turn comes up again.
I intend to do my part. After 32 years as a registered Democrat (I did not always vote along party lines), I am now a Republican party member looking foward to the upcoming campaign. I have also been sponsored to become a member of a local Republican Club.
Joined the other SOBs, eh? After 20 years as an independent, I joined the Independence Fusion Party. Not willing to join the party that hates and tries to screw my city, or the party that sells it out.
Join the Dems, your joining Hillary. Join the GOP, you get Jesse Helms and the machine that wrecked Nassau County. Hey, ho, the leeches must go.
Damned if ya do and damned if ya don't.
Larry, I hear ya, and a BIG AMEN to your post!
Doug aka BMTman
There are so many people here who presume automatically that someone who is Republican, a suburban resident, or both hates the cities and screws them every chance they get. I'm getting a bit sick of it, and I really don't think anything is ever that simple.
There are lots of suburbanites, and lots of Republicans, who work in the center cities and use public transit every weekday. Admittedly, they use mainly commuter trains and possibly a bus or subway to get to their office, but its transit nonetheless. Nobody is making them do it, and most of them have cars. Yes, there are lots of suburban residents who never go into the city out of misinformed fear, and proudly proclaim how many years it's been since their last time downtown. But if you ride the commuter or L trains on the weekend, at least here in Chicago, they are filled with suburbanites, including families with children, coming into downtown for a day of shopping, museums, or whatever. Why do you think that many empty nesters are now moving back into the city from the suburbs? They lived in the city when they were DINKs and they liked it. They only left when they had kids, because a city residence with the space to raise children is much more expensive than such a residence in newer developments.
There are plenty of Republicans in state assemblies who vote in favor of transit funding bills, if for no other reason than because they have constituents who use the trains. The main reason that many Republicans at the national level (that is, in Congress) don't favor transit is more because they are from non-metropolitan constituencies than that they are Republican. I'd like to know the voting record of rural Democrats on transit bills -- I suspect it isn't that different from rural Republicans. When a Republican, Michael Flanagan, was elected from my urban/suburban congressional district, he pushed hard among his fellow Republicans for yes votes on transit bills.
There's nothing *inherent* in the GOP platform or philosophy that is anti-urban. It seems to me that Republicans disfavor older Eastern cities because they have a reputation as bastions of machine politics and a hyper-liberalism that is a mix of the worst elements of New Dealism and political correctness. One has to admit that New York City has in the past deserved that reputation at least in part. Is it fair NOW in light of Guiliani's reelection as mayor and his policies? No, but I think the reputation of NYC in the GOP is changing for the better because of Guiliani and others.
I'm a Republican, and though I am for the time being living in the suburbs, I am very proud of Chicago. I use public transit to go to work downtown every day, and I also go downtown many weekends -- by transit -- for relaxation. Moreover, whenever the occassion is appropriate, I try to convince friends and acquaintances who are Republicans or Reagan Democrats of the need for public transit and adequate funding therefor, and to dissuade them of any misperceptions they have about transit and the people who use it.
And don't even get me started on how Jesse Helms is NOT NOT NOT the representative of the GOP and how I'm sick of him being dragged out as the typical, average Republican.
[There's nothing *inherent* in the GOP platform or philosophy that is anti-urban. It seems to me that Republicans disfavor older Eastern cities because they have a reputation as bastions of machine politics and a hyper-liberalism that is a mix of the worst elements of New Dealism and political correctness. One has to admit that New York City has in the past deserved that reputation at least in part. Is it fair NOW in light of Guiliani's reelection as mayor and his policies? No, but I think the reputation of NYC in the GOP is changing for the better because of Guiliani and others.]
NYC still has some of that hyper-liberal taint, even in the Giuliani era, because of the influence of the _New York Times_. It's the most influential newspaper in the United States, possibly the world, and has for all intents and purposes a monopoly within the city itself (both the _Post_ and the _Daily News_ are sports/entertainment publications with relative little real "news"). When Congressmen and other movers and shakers elsewhere in the country think of NYC political attitudes, likely as not they think of the _Times_.
It's possible that the _Times_ has grown somewhat more moderate in recent years. Even so, to a considerable extent it still embodies the Upper West Side, p.c., limousine liberal point of view. Not well-thought-out liberalism, a political philosophy that many people on the opposite end of the spectrum can at least respect, but mindless, knee-jerl liberalism. It also tends to have a condescending attitude toward almost everywhere outside Manhattan. As I've said before, the _Times_ seems to think that people living in the most sophisticated suburbs are little more than hillbillies. I can well imagine that this sort of attitude engenders a great deal of contempt toward NYC in other places. As I noted above, many people think that all NYC residents subscribe to the _Times'_ worldview. That's not the case by any means (*someone* voted for Giuliani), but perceptions can be more important than reality.
The New York Times is liberal???? Since when? Newsday is a liberal paper -- without question.
The Post and The Daily News are just dressed up Enquirers so they don't really count in the mix.
The Times is usually right-of-center on most issues although they do often back left-of-center candidates.
Doug aka BMTman
The Times tries to be moderate in recnet years on its editorial page, but when push comes to shove it's like a smoker trying to avoid lighting up just one more cigarette. It goes right to edge, then pulls back into familiar, comfortable territory.
Newsday, on the other hand, maintains the editorial stance of the preverbial liberal who hasn't been mugged yet.
I've long wondered why Newsday has been so extremely liberal.
I thought I had the answer when they brought out their New York edition, since it fulfilled the rather obvious suspicion that they really had their eye on trying to be a major New York City newspaper.
An interesting juxtaposition was 1991 (I think) when the MTA threatened to cut owl service on both the subway and LIRR. The NY edition complained rightly that NY was a 24-hour city and any suggestion of cutting service was outrageous. The LI edition, OTOH, thought that cutting the LIRR service was something that just had to be borne.
Now the NYC edition is history, but the Newsday editorial policy (the most liberal in the region, AFAIK) still soldiers on.
Paul, too bad the New York Newsday edition folded. I liked it since it was at least good jouralism. And it also had the always enjoyable Jim Dwyer doing the "Subway" column (remember that). NY Newsday was a viable alternative to the sensationalist Post and DN "rags". The Times, for good or ill, has always been pretty much in a class all by itself.
BTW, speaking of papers, Paul, I have a copy of a recent Brooklyn Daily Eagle that I could put in the mail if you'd like. I recall in an earlier post that you were curious about the "new Eagle". Let me know.
Doug aka BMTman
I would like to see that "Brooklyn Eagle," Doug. If you don't still have my address, email me and I'll send it again.
I still feel the loss of the old Eagle. Although it was a tabloid in its last few years, it was still a full-fledged and interesting paper, very analagous to Newsday.
One little detail of the old Eagle sticks in my mind. At the time of its demise, the seven NYC papers (except the News and Mirror) were a nickel, as was the Eagle.
But the Eagle was a nickel on Sunday. Complete with color comics. Like the cheap bleachers ticket to see baseball at Ebbets Field, that kind of bargain is long since history.
[I've long wondered why Newsday has been so extremely liberal.
I thought I had the answer when they brought out their New York edition, since it fulfilled the rather obvious suspicion that they really had their eye on trying to be a major New York City newspaper.
Now the NYC edition is history, but the Newsday editorial policy (the most liberal in the region, AFAIK) still soldiers on.]
Ownership, possibly? Times Mirror, whose flagship paper is the Los Angeles Times, owns Newsday. I don't know enough about the LAT to say anything about its political stance, but Times Mirror also owns the liberal Hartford Courant.
Good point John. It shows that political affiliation really doesn't matter much in general local terms -- but when it comes to national geographic areas -- that's where the difference really lies. Inner city folks and suburbanites really have more in common than they think -- now if only they could get together and stop finger-pointing at each other -- places like New York, and North Eastern states overall would really kick some major national butt!
People need to be reminded every now and then about the choice between hanging together or hanging separately.
Well John, I guess we are in danger of seeing hell freeze over because I agree with you.
Barry Goldwater was the worst thing that happened to the GOP. After he carried the South in 1964, all those Dixi-crats joined up and ruined the Republican Party.
The 8AVEXP is my all time favorite route, the A train, or the Washington Heights-8th Ave. Express. BTW, I saw a car with a California license plate the other day, and it has seven characters. So 4SEABCH would would fit nicely. As I've said before, I've had my personalized plates for 8 1/2 years, and so far only one person has figured out what they mean.
To answer your other question, I am a native Hoosier from South Bend and lifelong Notre Dame subway alumnus. We moved to New Jersey in 1967, when I was 10, and it was then and there that my love affair with the subway blossomed. When I was 16, we moved to Connecticut, where I remained until completing my degree from UConn (we are the champions!) in 1980. I've been a Colorado resident since September of that year. Many people at work think I'm from New York, since I talk about it a great deal, plus the fact that my speech has a certain Jersey flavor to it, with a lingering Indiana twang thrown in.
I'll bet you remember streetcars in L. A., seeing as how they lingered until 1963. Had I grown up there, I probably would have remembered them, since I do recall events from that time period.
P. S. What did you think of Hillary's remarks the other day about Mr. Bill's indiscretion with Ms. Lewinsky? Sounds like a front to me.
Steve B 8AVEXP: I don't thinkk much of anything Hillary says. She's a dirtbag, period---just like her husband. But I like the idea you are a Notre Dame man. I'm a big fan of the Notre Dame Fighting Irish. I went to Notre Dame last summer as part of my trip from Gettysburg to Cleveland (The Indians are my favorite AL team), to Notre Dame, to Chicago and attend some games at Wrigley. I hop Bob Davie gets off his time and beats SC this year. Losing to those guys really frosts me. I'll be in New York and Cooperstown from tomorrow to Aug, 19, and since this is the last day of summer school and the fact that my daughter will not let me use her computer than I'm paying for this is my last blurb until September 9. Chao.
My grandfather taught at Notre Dame from 1949 to 1963, so there are family ties there. I remember when the Hesburgh Library was being built in the early 60s. Go east on Edison Rd. from the campus for about two miles or so, and you'll be in my old neighborhood.
Ara Parseghian wishes he had the same success against USC that Lou Holtz had. I dislike that school intensely.
We have a couple of photos of what appears to be the 6th Ave. el which my grandfather took in 1936 while visiting the U. S. Not to mention numerous other photos of New York, including an elevated train pulling into a station.
I forgot another one that is used infrequently, or better yet rarely.....Hunters-Point on the Flushing line.
The Rail Historial knows someone who decorated their house in "Contract One IRT". He has globe lights on the entance. Ticket Chopper by the front door. Brass goose neck lights in his dining room. Ceiling lights from the IRT. Third Rail and insulators for staircase railings. Standing seem red metal roof. House is painted dark green. Stained glass from the 3rd Avenue EL. Power to house from a MG set. Master control of lighting from an interlocking machine.
Great place to visit.
Rail Historian,
You wouldn't happen to be Bob Dole would you?:)
Perhaps we'll find Beaver plaques in the den and cartouches in the bathroom as well!
Reminds me of my first apartment - I painted the living room yellow and brown to match Nostrand Avenue IND; the bedroom two-tone blue to match Broadway-Lafayette (the old tile) and the kitchen two-tone green to match Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Wayne
Wayne--youre weird!..but seriously.....did anyone notice??
Not really! What I did was paint most of the walls the lighter center color and did the trim, mouldings and a stripe 18" from the floor in the border color. It didn't look bad at all, especially the living room area. Rosemary (my wife) liked the two-tone blue. We've been painting bedrooms the same light blue (minus the border) ever since.
Wayne
Any TA or MTA plaques on the wall to complete the effect?
Nope - no plaques, just some ordinary pictures. As I mentioned, I only copied the colors. The colors in those stations are complementary, and are quite pleasing. It's too bad they redid Broadway-Lafayette with that dark blue during the rehab - the light blue was much nicer. I was trying to figure out what to paint the bathroom - Rosemary wanted pink. (it had white tile halfway up) - there are no IND stations in the red family that use pink. And copying the Tuscan red of Utica Avenue would have been WAY too dark!
So I stuck with pink, and didn't do a border.
Wayne
Are there any artifacts pertaining to the slant R-40s?
None there either, Steve. I guess I'm going to have to wait another five or ten years before I can gather some of those up. I am NOT looking forward to that day - the Farewell To the R40 fan trip - and when it comes, I will be wearing a black armband.
Wayne
I'm looking forward to the day I can put my IND sign box in a recessed wall opening and wire up the destination signs for illumination. I'm also toying with the idea of putting my bulkhead signs in an opening near the ceiling with a sliding door underneath and perhaps marker lights on either side.
My sign box is currently set for an Aqueduct Special for the first time, and my bulkhead signs are now back to A/Wash. Hts 207th St.
There is a building at the canarsie pier park that resembles a trolley station is the the old ternial(it is where the b-42 makes its loop) if it is not then where was the terminal
My memories of Canarsie Pier Park are about 50 years old. I have a recollection that the trolley terminal( and I've used the wooden structure with the curved wooden platform several times) was just about under the Belt Parkway roadway.
Yes, the curved platform and shelter is used today as a bus stop
The building at Canarsie Pier was built earlier this DECADE and is, and has always been a restaurant.
I thought there was just a "snack bar" at the pier and not the Abbraccimento Restaurant until only recently.
(I live about 1/2 mile from the pier)
Doug aka BMTman
As far as I know, the trolley terminal was in the right of way between E 95th and E 96th Sts, between Skidmore Av and St Jude Pl (formerly part of Rockaway Av [not Pkwy]). Most of the actual right of way is still empty land.
The B-42 bus turns around at Canarsie Veterans Circle, which was presumably built at the same time as the Belt Pkwy (late 30's or early 40's). There are 100-year old photos of buildings and amusement parks running southeast from the corner of Schenck St (formerly Schenck Av - no relation to the one in East New York) and Canarsie Rd (also formerly part of Rockaway Av). These buildings and parks extended across the area now occupied by the Belt Pkwy.
How did this Rockaway Avenue connect to Rockaway Avenue in ENY? Or did it not?
There was a Rockaway Avenue in Canarsie that was completely separate from the Rockaway Avenue in Brownsville and East New York. The Rockaway Avenue in Canarsie was renamed St. Jude Place in the 1960s to avoid the confusion.
However...
There is still a Schenck Avenue in Canarsie and another one in East New York. (I haven't been to that part of Canarsie in a few years, so it's entirely possible that the DOT is calling it Schenck Street or Schenk Avenue, or changed the spelling somehow to make a differentiation.
Rarely in New York do two streets carry the same name in the same borough. (In the 19th Century, streets were named North Moore and Great Jones so there would be no duplication).
Boston, however, makes no such effort and as a result, you have five or six Washington Streets alone there.
Whenever a municipality absorbs another, there is an additional problem of name duplication.
The Franklin Avenue streetcar line had the unique quality of running on two completely different Franklin Aves. It ran on the current Franklin Avenue, then Malbone Street (Empire Blvd.) and Ocean Avenue, then Franklin Avenue of Flatbush. The latter was renamed Parkside Avenue.
Long Island is full of entirely different streets with the same name. There are at least two Old Country Roads, Commack Roads, Nicolls Roads. Often each is a major road, though unconnected.
Many major highways change name as they run through various villages and hamlets, reflecting original names. Montauk Highway is Main Street as it passes through Babylon. People use Main to for street addresses, but might say Montauk to describe a driving route. But the real old timers call it Merrick Road, remembering when it was the major route to Jamaica and the City.
No wonder they came up with numbered highways.
Here's a trivia (with transit relevance). Hamburg Avenue was a major trolley route in Brooklyn. It is now a bus under a different name. What did Hamburg Avenue change to, and why?
I'll make a guess---the name change had something to do with anti-German sentiment during either WWI or WWII---but I have no guess as to what it was changed to---maybe something with a patriotic flavor.
You're halfway there. World War I because of anti-German sentiment.
This was the same war where people were calling sauerkraut "victory cabbage." I don't know if it is as directly connected to the war, but at about that time "German Toast" began to be called "French Toast."
Look at an old Fannie Farmer or other old cookbook. Same recipe.
[This was the same war where people were calling sauerkraut "victory cabbage." I don't know if it is as directly connected to the war, but at about that time "German Toast" began to be called "French Toast."]
World War I presented quite a dilemma for the town of Berlin in Connecticut. Its name obviously was no longer politically correct (ah, the wonderful days before that odious term became part of the language ...), but a full name change would have been too much trouble. As a compromise, the spelling of the name stayed the same, but almost everyone began pronouncing it to rhyme with "Merlin." This pronunciation caught on and remains in use today.
I heard that the original Culver railway (the one that the el replaced in 1919) had a Washington Avenue stop in Parkville. I consulted a 1916 street guide I happened to have lying around (don't ask) and sure enough, there was a Washington Avenue listed in Parkville, Brooklyn. It disappeared decades ago.
I believe Hamburg Avenue was in Bushwick-Ridgewood and changed its name to either Central or Western during WWI. There was a prejudice against German names at the time.
www.forgotten-ny.com
IIRC - they changed the name from "Hamburg Avenue" to:
Wayne
Good work Wayne.....
I remember as a kid, my dad showing me the raised letters for "Hamburg" under the newer painted "Wilson" on the metal "Knickerbocker Ave" station signs on the Myrtle Ave El.
Does anyone know if these signs still exist? I understand that the western exit (Wilson Ave +/-) is long gone.
Wilson Avenue = President Woodrow Wilson---very clever!!!
True, Kevin. But only one of the Washington Streets in Boston separates Winter and Summer!
Maybe they were trying to say that Washington was A Man For All Seasons.
The ROW for the Rockaway Parkway trolley did indeed run between E 95 and E 96sts, in fact, right behind my grandparents home @ 1515 E 95st
-Hank
An interesting bit of trivia about the original steam-powered Canarsie Line was that there was a station along the route between E. 95th and E. 96th called 'Holmes Station'. This was named after an African-American family that owned a number of residences along the route at around Skidmore Ave. I have heard that to this day members of the Holmes family still reside in the area.
Doug aka BMTman
Re the Holmes family in Canarsie:
There is a surviving dirt road called Holmes Lane in Canarsie. Check my webpage for a look at it as well as views of several other old Canarsie lanes:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/Canarsie%20lanes/canarsie.html
Does anyone have any information on the Lexington Av El (Such as when it was discontinued & taken down.) I see it on maps in books on subways but no reference to it. I work in the 81st Pct a block away from Ralph & Bway where the maps show it terminated (onto the J tracks). I cannot find ANY remnants of it either at that intersection or on Lexington Av.(Although the Brownstone are more set back on Lex than on other streets.) I do remember the Myrtle (I rode on it on its last day of operation) and there are many remnants to it left but the Lexington El must have been discontinued much earlier.
The Lex was abandoned in 1950.
You should be able to see evidence of its existence in the steelwork underneath the Broadway L at Lexington. It was visible last time I recall and there hasn't been major resconstruction that I know of that would have obliterated it.
In effect the part of the J Line from Alabama Avenue to just before Cypress Hills station is a reinforced but ultimately original still extant part of the original Lexington Avenue L.
The "Last Lex" was operated on Oct 13th 1950 at 9PM. The el structure was demolished in early 1951
Karl B
Thanks all!!!
The Lex was Brooklyn's first EL, it opened on May 13, 1885. The Fulton El opened in 1886. Both were steam powered, using Forney type engines, and wood railroad style coaches just like the ones on the Manhattan El's.
Hey Jeff,
Just to let you know, where the 79 stands now there was a station on the Lex El (Tompkins & Lex). When I tell anyone that there was an El that ran on Lex that stopped right at that corner they think I'm nuts.(alright, they may be true anyhow!)
P.S. If you rode the Myrtle Line you could seen a remnant of the Lex at Myrtle and Grand, (a turnout structure was still standing right up till the razing of the Myrtle Ave line.
Thanks Mike, When I turn out at the 81 (as a Sgt) we usually park on Lex between Bway & Patchen for coffee. When I tell the guys there was an El there I get the same reaction you get about the station on Tomkins!!! They think I'm nuts. (Although some of the guys saw the map on the wall at Subway hero shop so they believe me!! ) I cannot find any remnant of the el at all. Although someone earlier said there is one on the "J" el at Lex I don't think its there anymore. Lex does have more commercial bldgs than surrounding streets.
By the way, I still have a wicker seat from the Myrtle that I "borrowed" (I wasn't a cop then, just a teenage subway buff) on the last day of its existance. People were taking everything off the trains, including the REAL straps!!! I carried that seat home with me on the Jamaica El to Sutphin, the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hempstead Bus Comp Bus (long b-4 MSBA) to my home in East Meadow!!!! (At least I got a seat!!!) I also too alot of pix of the last run that day but my parents must have thrown them out long ago 'cause I could never find them.
Perhaps you should have "taken" a sign or something from the Supthin Blvd station, seeing how it's now just a memory.
LOL
Jeff, It's too bad that you were not around when the Lex was still in service. You could have seen the most fascinating station on the subway system. This was at the junction of the Lex and Myrtle. It was a three side-platform station. The Lex had a platform to stop at for trains bound for Bridge-Jay St. The end of this platform connected to the end of the Grand Ave platform on Myrtle. There was an overhead walkway from one Grand Ave platform to the other. There was no platform at all for Lex trains bound for Eastern Parkway so these trains had one less station stop. There was a switch tower above the tracks on Myrtle to contol the switches. This was a fascinating station and an ideal picture taking spot. I just wish that I had had a camera in those days. I could have gotten some great pictures.
Karl B
Could someone tell me what subway to take to basically get to and
from rockefeller center to 38 & 7th St.
Thanks so much!
Well, Rockefeller Center is at 49th Street between 5th and 6th Avenues. From 38th Street and 7th Avenue (which is what I'm assuming you mean), your best bet is to walk.
If you're dead set against walking the entire distance, I'd walk east on 38th to 6th Avenue, then north to the entrance to the 42nd street station (I think there's an entrance at 40th street and 6th). You can then take any uptown train (B, D, F or Q) one stop to the Rockefeller Center station.
But walk. You'll save money and time. And the weather is better than it has been in weeks.
Chuck
Keep in mind that in some cities streets are more widely spaced than in New York. The poster may not be aware of how short a distance this is.
Running north-south, 20 blocks is a mile. East-west blocks vary somewhat but one block east-west is generally the length of 2-4 north-south blocks.
So 38th to 49th is about half a mile. Seventh to Sixth is under a quarter mile. So the total walk is under 1 1/4 miles each way. Now, unless you have an unlimited MetroCard or you have a free transfer waiting from a bus ride you took within the past two hours, that subway ride will cost you $1.50 (or ~$1.36 with the 10% bonus), and you'll only be riding on the train 8 blocks (i.e., under a mile) -- the rest you'll have to walk. Add in the extra walking you'll be doing up and down stairs and the train saves you about half a mile. Is $3 per mile a good price? You'll have to decide yourself, but at that rate the A train from 207th Street to Far Rockaway (the longest single ride in the system, IINM) would cost about $100. (The run over Jamaica Bay is almost worth that much, but not quite.)
The bus will work also what routes are the best?
From 38th and 7th, walk east to 6th (note that Broadway is between 6th and 7th here, so that's actually two blocks) and hop on the M5, M6, or M7 (i.e., anything that stops for you). To return, walk west to 7th and take the M6 or M7 down to 38th (note that it'll drop you off on Broadway, not 7th), or keep walking west another (short) block to Broadway and take the M10 to 38th (the M10 will drop you off on 7th). (I've heard rumors that the M10 is now split into two routes, but I'm six states away and the MTA web page doesn't seem to mention this. Apparently either section of the former M10 will do for you, but I don't know what numbers they use. If you board any bus other than the M27 and M104, you should be fine.)
But you'll be spending the same $1.50 on the bus as you'd spend on the subway, and there's a good chance you'll hit horrendous traffic (i.e., walking will likely be faster). As before, it's probably not worth it unless you have an unlimited card or you have a free transfer waiting from a recent ride on the subway or on another bus.
1. Any 6th Avenue train(B,D,F or Q) to 42nd St, walk down four blocks and over to 7th
2. Walk over to Seventh and get the 1 or 9 at 50th Street and take that to 42nd Street and walk down four blocks.
3. M6 or M7 buses.
I was on a coney island bound N train today and they stopped us at 36th st because of a scheduling problem. Then they havd a B train, a M train which w as a R train and a local N train stop on the local track. Then they ran my train express to stillwell and the other one local. Does anybody know why?
laterz
blackdevl
There could have been a delay somewhere on the Sea Beach line.
Maybe I'll get lucky this fall and catch a nonstop express.
You knew I would get my antenna up when I heard the Sea Beach mentioned. Is the Sea Beach still an express? It was always supposed to be. The 4th Avenue Local was the local and the Sea Beach was the express. What gives? I plan to ride the Sea Beach many times when I come to New York tomorrow, but I sure as hell hope it's not a local. Hello out there. Anyone got some info on "my" train?
It's express in Brooklyn on weekdays. that's it. Go to the MTA Website if you want to find out about your favorite trains, when they run, where, how, whatever.
Hello Folks,
Just thought I'd let you know that as I was passing on the Bruckner Expwy, today, 8/3, I spotted a piece of LIRR equipment at Oak Point Freight Yard in the Bronx. What was it you ask? An LIRR Power Pack, I say!!! It was an FA unit numbered 613. It was by itself. I wonder where that old unit was heading off to? Any thoughts?
It sounds like the disposition of Locomotives has begun. Speaking of which, whatever happened to Locomotive #3100?
-Stef
[ It was an FA unit numbered 613. ]
Aww, that's terrible.. I've been behind (or in front of) that unit many times. Anyone remember the unit # that had the collision recently in Glen Cove (a day or two after the slamtrack "City of New Orleans" affair?). I think it was 613, but I'm not sure. It was a FA power pack, I know, and I know it wasn't noticably damaged -- more than I can say for the truck it hit.
I wonder how one of these Kawasaki cab cars would have fared?
How would the Kawasaki's have fared in an accident? Good question! I hope they're not made of junk or we'd all be in trouble....
-Stef
[ How would the Kawasaki's have fared in an accident? Good question! I
hope they're not made of junk or we'd all be in trouble.... ]
Well, they _will_ be in an accident, I can say with relative certainty. We'll see how they perform when it happens. I know they must meet FRA standards for safety, but still don't know what they'll look like after an accident.
Metrolink, in southern California, had an accident involving one of their cab cars (#608) a month after they began service. The train hit a large municipal dump truck at an unprotected crossing. The cab car did sustain moderate damage, however, the collision posts as required by FRA, did what they were intended to do, and prevented any part of the interior from crumpling.
The engineer did have the smarts to bail out after he dumped the air, and run to the lower level of the Bombardier car! The cab window, though made of safety glass, could have caused some injury when it shattered in that collision.
Amtrak has also had a few similar instances with their former Metroliner cab cars in use on the San Diegans, and they basically fared well -- no crushed cabs, dead crewpersons.
If you look back to October, 1967 -- LIRR's RDC cars were in a collision with a dump truck in Holtsville. Apparently, RDC's didn't have the strong collision posts as today's equipment, as the entire front end of the RDC-1 (#3101) was crushed, and the engineer died in the collision.
[Metrolink, in southern California, had an accident involving one of
their cab cars (#608) a month after they began service. The train hit a large municipal dump truck at an unprotected crossing. The cab car did sustain moderate damage, however, the collision posts as required by FRA, did what they were intended to do, and prevented any part of the interior from crumpling. Amtrak has also had a few similar instances with their former Metroliner cab cars in use on the San Diegans, and they basically fared well -- no crushed cabs, dead crewpersons.]
Something similar happened on Metro North three or four years ago. A Bombardier single-level cab car struck a flatbed truck carrying a crane, which had high-centered at a little-used grade crossing. As with the Metrolink incident you describe, the cab car remained physically intact despite sustaining some damage to its front end (although it partially derailed). According to the NTSB report, there was a total of $500,000 in property damages. The report didn't break down this figure, so I don't know how much it cost to repair the Bombardier car - some of the damages were attributable to the crane and the flatbed trailer, both of which were destroyed.
That was #607.
My favorite old loco is #621 - an absolutely filthy and ancient machine, but still hale, hearty and active, as far as I know. I'm going to miss those old engines, but NOT those godawful coaches!
Can't they do anything about the new-vinyl stink that the new bilevels give off? It's enough to gag a goat!
Wayne
There was recently posted in alt.binaries.pictures.rail a photo of LIRR 611 in Oak Point Yard, and it appeared to be stripped of useable parts (not that there were many....air horns, some grilles) and the thing was covered in fresh-looking grafitti!
The 604 wound up, a few years ago, at the Portola Railroad Museum in northern California where it was slated to be repainted to (gasp!) Union Pacific colors. I don't know whether it has been done or not, it's only 650 miles from where I live.
That's good to know. I guess some FA's are going to get some much needed rest. Put them to use in a Museum somewhere. Correct me if I'm wrong but these locomotives no longer have prime movers, eh? I guess they'll be static displays if they can't move under their own power, or in the case that we have now, the power packs would continue to be just that - a powerpack.
-Stef
Hello again!
I am putting in a request for information regarding NYCT GE Locomotives.
The question pertains to assignments, which I am presently trying to find answers, so our respected web site host can reflect on the site.
Questions pertain to: GE Electrics - Two Electrics were sent to the LIRR several years ago to work on those lines. Numbered 400 and 401, they could usually be spotted at Sunnyside. Anyone know whether they were sold to LIRR or were they borrowed by the LIRR? I would also like to know which units they were (I believe it's OEL06 and 07, but Dave informed me he spotted OEL07 at Corona recently). Are there still GE electrics over there?
Locomotive assignments on the SIRT: I would like to know what's happening on SIRT. Two GE diesels made it out there. Those units are 57 and 58, I believe? Can anyone confirm that? I'd also like info on the Alco unit(s) in operation on the SIRT so this too may be added to the locomotive page.
Finally I haven't seen Loco 64 in a while. Sources say that 64 was out on the Metro North Line performing swichting duties over at GCT. Did that unit come back?
Your help would greatly be appreciated.
Stef
Of the two electrics sent to Amtrak for tunnel catenery work, only one is servicable. Both are leased to them long term. One is sitting at the LIRR Morris Park back shop.
They were modified to meet FRA standards and have the steps cut in, rather than ladders, and the cab seats were changed from stools to captains chairs. Cab Signal equipment was added and a RR radio installed.I do believe PATH had one too for a while.
Thanks Mr. TP!
So the units belong to LIRR, then? The units are LIRR, but are being used for work on the NEC in the vicinity of Sunnyside.
Question: What are the numbers of the two units now? What are their former NYCT designations?
-Stef
Don't remember the numbers. Sorry. Also Amtrak leases them and LIRR stores them. I believe the designation is GE SL-35E
I went to Union Station, Washington, D.C., and bought the August issue of Railpace Magazine.
The bottom half of the front cover is a photo of an R44 A train crossing Jamaica Bay, but it does not show the headline. I have to turn to the third page that the headline is actually "Subways Aboveground." I am surprised that there is an article about NYC Subways in this issue!
Joe Greenstein writes the article and take the photos. They are all good! I like it very much.
Chaohwa
Four former LIRR GP38-2's have been repainted in a Hunter Green and white livery for the NY&A. I saw a picture of one of them at the Fresh Pond Yard; #268. All four are leased by the NY&A.
270 is another.
Does anyone have information about the abandoned Jerome-Anderson station near Yankee Stadium? When I was a teenager growing up in NYC in the mid-1950s (I'm now in Kansas City) I traveled the subways on Saturdays for adventure. Suppose I wouldn't recommend it today, but I had no problem then. The station was an abandoned El stop - a shuttle once part of the 9th Avenue El (I believe) - that became a subway through a rock outcropping. Back then, I walked around a chain-link fence across the entrance, went up to the platform, and there were two gangs who had made it their home. I thought I was in real trouble, but they showed me around! Like I said, a different time. Is the station still there? Any stories or info. about the line?
Don,
I have been asking questions about the former Polo Grounds shuttle, (as the line to 155 St Manhattan was known) so far not much.
Just to clarify for you; the line branched off the Jerome Line and the first stop was Jerome-Anderson Ave. After this stop the line became a quasi-subway through a hill then exited for a stop at Sedgwick ave, then over the Harlem River to the Polo Grounds at 155 street.
The line closed in 1958 when the Giants left, and from what I understand it stood until 1961 or 1962, when it was demolished. How much is still intact (including what is left in the tunnel) I don't know and have been asking anyone with info for help.
I have a little extra info about the line, but not much about what remains.
Mike H
What is needed to start a MP-32 LIRR loco? What do you have to do?
It's not like a car right? Can't just push a button or flip a switch?
There's more than one switch, actually a few that have to be flipped in a certain sequence, on any locomotive. Depending on the model, the switches are located in various places.
From what I remember having ridden in some loco cabs, there is a fuel pump switch on the control panel, then on the rear wall is the "isolation" switch. Maybe someone with railroad experience can enlighten us all.
I remember on SD45's, after all the cab switches were set properly, the crewman starting the engine had to do it from inside a hood on the rear right side of the unit. That's the only one I ever saw being started up....it was on the Southern Pacific
Hello folks I have to comment about the now abandoned LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch. WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THIS LINE? Its been dead for some 37 years now. Does this line have ANY FUTURE OR NOT? Hello MTA wake up if your not going to use it then get rid of it. COMPLETELY!!!!This is an eyesore. I personally think they should continue the A line all the way down to where it reaches Queens blvd. Crossing over the LIRR Main line. Any ideas? Whats this ficticious stuff about a Light Rail Thing? Let me know.
I think that line might see some form of use in the future when/if the JFK/LaGuardia shuttle ever gets built.
BTW, stranger things have happenned.
Doug aka BMTman
Tom, May I suggest you do a search of this site by keyword, as there has been a lot of discussion here about the JFK Express and history of Far Rockaway line from LIRR main at "Whitepot Junction". There are some obstructions on the line now & a lot of NIMBYs who like the trees in their back yards. You'll also learn that recently this ROW was seriously considered when the approval process was going on for the Van Wyke Expressway planned route.
You'll also see that many here agree with you that this ROW makes a lot of since .... but then politations don't necessarily do things that make since.
Mr t__:^)
The line is in a kind of limbo.
On the one hand, no one has really wanted to face down the NIMBYs along the right of way if they have any choice.
OTOH, the line is so well sited that the regional planners don't want to give up on it either.
Stay tuned, but don't hold your breath.
There are continuing attempts to grab the ROW, egged on by NIMBY neighbors. One little break and its over. BTW there is construction up against the LIRR ROW, I belive to the east of McDonald. The community in that area is not very tolerant of regulations and the property rights of others. I wonder if they are building in the ROW, shrinking it to a size that would not allow two tracks?
Hey, I've figured out how to save the line from the NIMBYs! Build or buy a "Thomas the Tank Engine" replica (after paying the due license fee, of course) and run it up and down the line, advertising the living bejeezus out of it in the neighborhood. Any parent that pushed for removing the line would have to face ongoing tantrums from their kids, crying "Where's Thomas? You killed Thomas!" (^:
A suggestion most humorous (but just a tad serious) from:
John B. Bredin, Esq.
jbredin@planning.org
There is an interesting thread of postings on this subject at Railroad.net in their NYS railfan section. The url of this thread if you want to see it is http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/nyrail/msg0717162323996.html?14
Another 2¢ worth from me re: the LIRR Rockaway Branch. I have never heard one peep in the press or on the radio from the residents of Forest Hills Gardens, whose beautiful apartments back RIGHT UP AGAINST the LIRR ROW about the railroad next door. LIRR trains are for the most part, relatively quiet. The Rockaway Branch should receive the best roadbed possible, with concrete ties. AND as a bonus - re-open the five stations and provide some local service as well. Perhaps a new Rego Park stop west of the old one with some access to Queens Mall. A new Brooklyn Manor stop with a connection to the "J" line. A new Parkville stop all dressed up like the new Forest Hills stop. Restoration of Woodhaven and Ozone Park stations. Of course, there should be express airport service as well. Run out the express from Penn or GCT and let the local follow it a few minutes later, like they do on the Babylon line. The locals would also terminate at JFK.
Wayne
You're talking a lot of sense, Wayne. I've lived most of my life within earshot of rail lines--currently about 350 feet from diesels and electrics pounding by on an elevated line at up to 80 mph.
Honestly, the nearby highway bugs me more--and not because I'm a railfan--noise is noise.
But the people along the Rockaway r-o-w just know that the government wants to put something in their community which they don't feel is going to benefit them, and might have a negative impact.
If I were them, I would worry about the construction noise, debris, obstruction, more than the actual trains.
If the government would grease them with some money and some goodies, that might win them over.
Yes, the sounds of all those chippers going at once could certainly raise a devil of a racket. Not to mention pile-drivers, graders, tunnel-boring machines (for that little stretch near Union Turnpike), cement-mixers, &c &c.
Ultimately, everyone will benefit if this line is re-opened. I figure it would take an express 25 minutes to get to JFK from GCT, probably 30 or so from Penn (provided there are no delays). And ONE seat. Perhaps they can get some special M-7 cars with extra-wide luggage racks or compartments just for the Airport service.
AND while we're at it: let's hook it back up to the Atlantic Avenue branch and re-open Woodhaven station. All you need there is a switch.
Wayne
Since the LIRR still own the ROW, anybody who builds on the ROW should be charged with tresspasing and their construction from the ROW cleared.
Which reminds me -- is that freggin' giant spider still hanging from the signal tower on the old LIRR Rock ROW?
Doug aka BMTman
[ Which reminds me -- is that freggin' giant spider still hanging from
the signal tower on the old LIRR Rock ROW? ]
Yup :) Just saw it today.
For a look at the spider, and other scenes from the Rockaway Branch, see this page in Forgotten NY:
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/SUBWAYS/Rockaway%20Line/rockline.html
[Since the LIRR still own the ROW, anybody who builds on the ROW should be charged with tresspasing and their construction from the ROW cleared.]
Actually, I believe the city now owns the ROW.
I'm not sure if it applies here, but there is a legal theory of "adverse possession" which means that if you openly use someone else's property (such as by building on it) unchallenged for a certain period of time (15 years?), the property becomes yours.
So it might be worthwhile for the City or whoever to periodically tour the right of way, and have any encroaching uses ended.
[I'm not sure if it applies here, but there is a legal theory of "adverse possession" which means that if you openly use someone else's property (such as by building on it) unchallenged for a certain period
of time (15 years?), the property becomes yours.]
At least in some states, government-owned property cannot be taken by adverse possession no matter how long it's used by someone else. As the old Rockaway line is city-owned, it should be safe from adverse possessors.
The City could reaquire it anyway by eminent domain.
A. The City cannot be adversely possessed against under NY law. I researched the question some years ago.
B. They should still clear out the squatters periodically so that no one can go to the politicians with an argument that it would be unfair for the City to enforce its rights after all the time that they have been there.
C. Eminent Domain just gives the City the right to pay again for whatever piece it has to buy back, if it has disposed of part of the right of way.
D. Has anyone checked to see if the City has leased, sold, or granted an easement on any part of the ROW. I walked most of the right of way a few months ago and found two notable obstacles that I can recall: a huge apartment house has its parking lot in the ROW south of the junction with the Montauk Branch; and a school bus operator stores its buses on the ROW south of Jamaica Avenue. Hard to believe that either of them just went ahead without getting permission. Which reminds me:
E. Adverse possession has to be adverse. If property is used or occupied with permission, title never passes to the user or occupant.
Call out the TBMs, folks; you'll have to dig halfway to China to get around (UNDER) that apartment building. Plus - there are 100,000+ trees in the way, many of them quite mature (what a pile a mulch and logs THEY'LL make!). The school bus yard? They can probably be compensated (buy 'em out).
The Rockaway LIRR branch is THE ONLY WAY to JFK. Let us reclaime it for the publick goode.
Wayne
TBMs? Tunnel Boring Machines? Or am I guessing wrong?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'd prefer some TEMs or Tunnel Exciting Machines! I just feel so sorry for all those tunnels that have to endure all that boredom.
OK, now is that getting old or what?
Being that the "Train To The Plane" was a total flop, I don't see any LIRR train going to JFK to be a big success. (Or the ridiculous light rail over the Van Wyck idea either) People going to the airport to catch a flight that costs hundreds of dollars with loads of luggage are going to take cabs or have someone drive them. Employees of the airport will have much more direct routes than taking the train to Jamaica and connecting to a JFK route.
I'd much rather see the LIRR reopen the Central Branch!!! (the ROW is still pretty much there) This way there there would be service to the NC Med Center, NC Jail, Eisenhower Park, Nassau Comm College, LI Children's Museum, The Source, All the stores and restaurants on Merrick Av, (like Fridays & Symms) and finally train service to East Meadow & Levittown!!! The only thing that would be lost would be the firehouse at Clinton Av (It would revert back to a Station!!)
By the way, back to the Rockaway Branch-Does everybody know that at ENY Station the sign still says, "trains to Long Island and The Rockaways"?
The train to the plane was a total flop because:
1) too many stops/too long a travel time
2) delayed JFK trains stuck behind late running A trains
3) JFK only connected to bus and did not go direct to terminals
On the monorail - I totally agree with you.
As for a direct link from Penn Station to JFK - that would bring alot more riders than you think. All of the disadvantages listed above are eliminated - so long as the train makes stops at all the major terminals.
Advantages gained include:
1) less than 30 minute travel time to JFK from midtown (even during rush hour)
2) likelihood that you will only need english to communicate with travel personnel
3) relatively cleaner and more spacious ride than back of a Ford Crown Victoria
4) lower fare (the LIRR won't try to charge $30 to JFK.)
[I'd much rather see the LIRR reopen the Central Branch!!! (the ROW is still pretty much there) This way there there would be service to the NC Med Center, NC Jail, Eisenhower Park, Nassau Comm College, LI Children's Museum, The Source, All the stores and restaurants on Merrick Av, (like Fridays & Symms) and finally train service to East
Meadow & Levittown!!! The only thing that would be lost would be the firehouse at Clinton Av (It would revert back to a Station!!)]
Train service in that area certainly would come in handy. Levittown and East Meadow surely have many commuters, who now have to fight for parking at Hicksville or along the Babylon line. But it's hard to imagine rebuilding a train line across the middle of Eisenhower Park. It would have to run underground through the park, which obviously would increase its cost big time.
[ By the way, back to the Rockaway Branch-Does everybody know that at
ENY Station the sign still says, "trains to Long Island and The
Rockaways"? ]
I think I remember seeing that. It's still technically true, you can still get to Far Rock by going in that direction.. You can't really get to the same intermediate stations, though, like Ozone Park, etc.
Jeff, This is lible to start the whole conversation all over again on this issue, but there seems to be quite a few new commers on-board, so what the ha...
I too will have to disagree about the branch at Whitepot Junction then down the old ROW to JFK. I see Manhattanites, folks from NJ & CT plus many others ... but it looks like the Port Auth is going another way, i.e. via Van Wyke, so it may never happen.
The Van Wyke m-a-y draw some employees of JFK, but I have to feel that the route was picked for political reasons rather then it being the best one.
Mr t__:^)
No need for TBMs. The ROW is under the parking lot, not under the building. It's only covered by a few inches of black-top.
One commnet - the City of New York owns this right of way. LIRR does not. When the City purchased the LIRR Rockaway Beach Branch in 1952, the property included the now abandoned r.o.w. from Whitepot Jct. southward. The original intent was to run subways from the Rockaways to midtown via the old r.o.w. and the Queens Blvd. line, where provision for an interlocking was provided east (north) of the 63d Drive Station. This link, of course, has never been built, since the only connection ever made for Rockaway trains is at Rockaway Blvd. in Ozone Park. BTW, the original plan was for both services (via Fulton St. and via Queens Blvd.) as well as a transfer to the Jamaica Ave. El at the old Brooklyn Manor Station.
Didn't any of you guys (and gals) get a look at tonight's 'Nightline'? It dealt with the horrible deaths of 500+ in the Bombay head-on train collision that occurred over the weekend.
I saw the THEIR VERSION of rush hour and am happy to say: "we are nowhere near that maddness in Bombay". They showed a standard commuting day where a train made to hold 1,700 swells to 7,000(!!) when mobs end up hanging off the sides (like some school kids used to do years ago -- 'subway surfing'). And there were even as much riding inside as there were on the ROOF of the train! What insanity!
Anybody else see the program?
Doug aka BMTman
They aren't?
Humm, sounds like certain branches of the LIRR at rush hour. Wouldn't you say?
I did see a prior show on rail systems in India, where I saw people packed on the train. We have a demographer from India at City Planning, and here is his rebuttal.
Bombay trains are actually far more comfortable than the subway, he says. The people hanging off the train in 3rd class are poor people who earn less than a dollar a day on average. In NYC, they couldn't afford the subway. Anyone who could afford the subway travels first or second class, in upholsetered seats with plenty of leg room and service.
Bottom line -- when in the Third World, always travel first class. Their first class is the equivalent of our working class.
"The people hanging off the train in 3rd class are poor people who earn less than a dollar a day on average. In NYC, they couldn't afford the subway. Anyone who could afford the subway travels first or second class, in upholsetered seats with plenty of leg room and service."
The Nightline program seemed to confound the Bombay commuter service with intercity trains. The accident which prompted the Nightline segment involved intercity trains far from any principal city, but the movie they had to illustrate the program was primarily about the Bombay commuter system.
I'm pretty sure that you're right about 1st and 2nd class being relatively comfortable (seats, bunks for long-distance trips, proper toilets, even air conditioning) and that many poor people ride the roof. However, I'm also pretty sure that there are damned uncomfortable but dirt cheap 3rd class accomodations **inside** the train, while those on the roof aren't 3rd class passengers, or even legal passengers at all, since they haven't got tickets and didn't pay any fare. I doubt the conductor climbs up on the roof to check tickets! But all that is on INTERCITY trains.
The film of the Bombay COMMUTER trains (5 million passengers daily, in a city of 14 million, and a train arriving at the downtown terminal at rush hour every two minutes!) showed people on the roof AND crush-load standing-room-only crowds **inside** the trains as well. I doubt there are classes on Indian commuter trains, any more than there are classes on commuter trains in the US or Europe. Whether one sits in a seat, stands inside the train, or rides the roof seemed from the movie to be decided much more by who gets on the train first than by class, either socioeconomic class or ticket class. Just like the subways here, although it hasn't gotten as bad as riding the roof. (^:
In other words, people ride on the roof on Indian intercity trains because they can't afford the fare, while people ride the roofs of the commuter trains because they wasn't any room left inside the train when they got on. And no amount of money is going to buy comfortable accomodations on an Indian commuter train at rush hour. (^:
(Only inter-city has classes of service)
My co-worker says that commuter trains also have higher class accomodations, with guaranteed seating, and separate cars for women.
A disaster like that was just bound to happen. After all, most of India's best RR people are now working for the NYCT.....
...and our best car inspectors are working in Bombay...
Ouch! OUCH!! No rim shot!
These days, I can close my eyes and swear that I am working in Bombay....
Not as bad as being in the Coney Island main shop and finding yourself in "Little Odessa"
Can you guys spell Xenophobia?
Anyone know what type of signal system is used in India. From newspaper reports it sounds like a manual block or something like that. Just curious.
From what it sounds like, they probably have some barefooted guy in cut-offs with a red or green flag in his hand who stands out in 100 degree heat all day waving them at oncoming trains. ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
The accident happened at 2AM - the dead of night. Supposedly some towerman/signalman wrong-railed the Brahmaputtra Express into the path of the other train. He then fled - this is what they do in the rest of the world when there's a train wreck.
As for the Bombay commuter rail segment - it's almost comical watching those hundreds of people hanging on the outside of the coaches. They have no clue that it's dangerous to do so. I guess they figure safeth in numbers. The interior crush loads can get almost as bad in NYC. I was on an "A" train back in April 1998 (it was an R38, #4031) which got SO CROWDED at Nostrand Avenue that I feared I would be injured in the crush (I wasn't) and when we arrived at Hoyt-Schermerhorn and the doors opened on the LEFT side, the Marx Brothers stateroom scene replayed itself - people (including myself!) began falling out of the open doors. It wasn't funny!
Wayne
At least nobody got sick, right? I remember getting a lot of dirty looks on a crowded rush hour D train back in June of 1978. All because I was lugging the IND bulkhead destination mechanism I had just picked up at Cityana Gallery.
Speaking of crush loading, have you ever seen any of those classic photos of Connecticut Co. open bench trolleys packed to the gills with football fans headed to Yale Bowl?
Yesh, I haves one of them in my old Trolley Car Treasury book - page 192 - showing Connecticut Open Car #840 en route to Yale-Bowl with what looks like 150 people on board, many hanging on to the outside. I bet she's still running around Warehouse Point. There's also an ace picture of PCC #1001 on page 183 signed up with a B68 sign. Doesn't some museum have that one too?
As for that most unpleasant (but mercifully short) trip on one of my favorite lines (the "A") - no, nobody became ill, thank goodness, at least not while I was aboard. But I had to twist and turn and squirm to keep my balance. At Nostrand, the train, already quite crowded, was boarded by a very LARGE number of passengers, a number of them quite large in stature, and none showing an iota of mercy. I chalked it up as typical rush-hour behaviour. My only concern was to get out at Hoyt to continue my photo shoot.
Wayne
PCC 1001 reposes at Shore Line, as a matter of fact, and it runs.
GOD BLESS! She's 63 years young! Is #840 still up and running? What about my old favorite - the open car #34? I was a youngster (1962) and we went up to Branford and rode up and down the line on her. What a joy!
Wayne
Yes I saw that! HOLY COW! That is one of the worst train wrecks I have EVER seen! Those coaches (especially the blue ones) fell apart like tissue paper. One train was travelling at 60 MPH. What kind of coaches are those anyway - they look like 1950s-vintage British trains.
Wayne
If those were ACMUs or Commet coaches, would they fall apart like that?
According to a documentary I saw, India uses pre 1900 British trains. Labor is so cheap, and new stuff so expensive relative to income, that it cheaper to have huge crews maintaining old steam trains than to replace them with diesel or electric. They repaint the metal so often it last forever, and fabricate new parts as needed.
Which makes me think -- I wonder if India would be interested in the Redbirds? Are the compatible with any of the the subway/commuter rail lines? Even for non-electric lines, the traction motors could be removed to save weight and they could be hooked up to a steam train.
From what I have seen on the Internet, Bombay and Calcutta do have subway systems, but believe it or not, the equipment is VERY modern (for India....) in both those systems.
It's the "heavy rail" (i.e. railroads) that have the ancient stuff made from tin foil. Maybe they should send the LIRR P72 push-pull fleet over there to help them "modernize".....
Saw a picture in Newsday today- they were hoisting what was left of one of the engines out of the pile. Didn't look like a steam engine- rather looked like a diesel (or what was left of it). It was smashed to smithereens. As for the Pre-1900 coaches - that is probably true of the brown coaches but the blue ones (they fell apart worse than most of the brown ones) looked to be somewhat newer. Anyway, even the decrepit MP-75s would be an improvement over what they have. Unfortunately, the MP-75s are spoken for. I wonder if any IC or Shore Line 1926 Pressed Steel or Pullman-Standard coaches are still floating around - perhaps India could use some of them. Betcha THEY wouldn't have fallen apart like that.
Wayne
> Unfortunately, the MP-75s are spoken for. I wonder if
> any IC or Shore Line 1926 Pressed Steel or Pullman-Standard
> coaches are still floating around - perhaps India could use
> some of them. Betcha THEY wouldn't have fallen apart like
> that.
If anything, India would be better off to spend this hypothetical money on replacing their manual signals with any kind of interlocking. Avoiding collisions will save far more lives than designing passenger cars that can survive a head-on impact at 60-120mph.
We do not, after all, design aircraft to withstand mid-air collisions--we design the air traffic control system to prevent them.
CH.
Of course I was being facetious! All signs point to human error in this tragic accident. You are absolutely correct in stating that the signal system needs to be modernized and some sort of fail-safes should be implemented.
Wayne
I just felt the point needed to be stated. All too many people in the US railroad community take the car approach to safety (survive what you hit) rather than the airline approach (don't hit anything). This line of thought is, IMO, one very large reason why high-speed (read: useful) passenger rail service is non-existant on the continent. But I digress...
In other words, this is a bit of a sore point for me.
CH.
I think you meant to say South Shore instead of Shore Line. Of course, if two of those had collided, you'd have had a Triplex-like collision. I don't think too many people would get a bang out of that.
Many of the old South Shore cars wound up in trolley museums; in fact, only a handful were scrapped. As to how many are operable is another story. Since they were wired for 1500 VDC operation, some modifications would be necessary for 600-volt operation. East Troy restored one coach as a dining car and painted it red; it is run frequently on their museum grounds.
They weren't BMT standards, that's for sure. Or IC Pullmans, or Big Orange South Shore cars, or Triplexes....
If they were R-1/9's, then there would not have been so many killed
Hey--
I'm making a film about how the subway has affected gentrification and white flight in New York City neighborhoods. Does anybody out there have any suggestions on where I can find information on this topic? Books, articles, websites, documentaries, people?
Thanks,
-subgirl
divisioniii@hotmail.com
I don't know if the subways aided in 'white flight', but certainly gentrification -- or yuppification.
A start might be with the book 722 Miles. The author's name escapes me at the moment, but it has a section or two that discusses the way ethnic groups were able to venture forth from the teeming areas of the Lower East Side, and Harlem to the outer boroughs of Brooklyn and Queens via the subways.
Hope that helps you out.
Doug aka BMTman
722 miles is by Clifton Hood. A must-read for all urban theorists and subfans alike.
The CUNY Institute for Transit Research @ John Jay College offers a course in "Transportation Systems & Urban Development". I took the course in 1995 and found it packed with the sort of information you are looing for. Perhaps you could contact the professor who teaches the course and he can refer you to the current text. If you need further information you can E-mail me and I'll happily point you in the right direction.
I'm only posting this message so I can change my name, I always forget otherwise. While we're at it, what was the first RR in New York City at the time? Today's NYC? The NYC region?
I'm an idiot, I forgot to do what I wanted in the original post!
I'm not sure, but in Manhattan I would guess the NY and Harlem River (later NYC, PC, CR,MNRR). On Long Island the LIRR, still the LIRR. In nearby NJ, the Camden & Amboy, later PRR, PC, CR. now I guess still PC, which still exists to jointly operate what's left of the line for CSX/NSC.
If I wasn't so lazy, I'd try to track this down and, if I'm correct, see which of these was the very first in the region. I'll guess Camden & Amboy.
The New York and Harlem Railroad began service as a horse car line from Prince Street to Union Square on November 26,1832. This is the company that to this day still holds title to the Harlem Line and Grand Central Terminal which are leased to the MTA.
The Camden and Amboy started in December 1832 between South Amboy and Bordentown NJ.
I should mention that the first trains on the NY & Harlem were double-headed,that is to say they were pulled by two horses.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How come trains always seem to come into stations on a yellow even if the other signals furthur down the platform are green?
Not likely that you'd see a yellow entering a station and then
a green midway down the platform, but it is common to have a green
leaving the station and yellows on all the signals within the station
and the one entering it. The rationale depends on whom you talk
to. One way of looking at it is that yellow is an Approach
indication, saying be prepared to stop, and the station stop
you're about to make is the stop. Personally, I think that's silly
but that's the way the IND was signalled, and during re-signalling
of other divisions that same principle was copied.
I noticed that when trains leave south ferry misters come on to wet down the tracks. I imagine the very sharp curve at the station generates a lot of heat. Is that why they are there?
Nope. The water acts as a cheap and simple lubricant to cut down on the wheel noise. This has a few side effects.
Good-The water will keep stray sparks from igniting garbage on the tracks
Bad-it raises the humidity level in th station substantialy.
-Hank
Riding the trains during the midnight hours, I decided to observe
conductors' procedures when entering a station. As you know,
midnights is the stomping ground of the low of seniority, so this
is a good place see how rookie conductors work.
Much to my surprise, with almost no exceptions, conductors did
not stick their head out before opening the doors. They all did
point as required by bulletin orders, but most did not actually
make eye contact with the board they were pointing at! The pointing
just became another one of the motions in the routine, like turning
the Vapor key, as if pointing were somehow necessary to make the
doors function.
Conductors were generally either staring into the PA panel, talking
to passengers who were outside the cab, or otherwise not looking
at the board or the platform area.
I doubt this is just a run of conductors with attention deficit
disorder. It seems as if in training, conductors are not being
taught to stick their head out and observe the platform conditions
before opening the doors. Perhaps someone like Erik who has
recently been through the conductor training course can comment.
As someone pointed out, we didn't have these problems with triggers
and caps!
In London, guards always open their own door before the train comes to a halt. If there is a wall, or an empty void, then this is immediately apparent. Does this/could this procedure take place in NYC?
[ In London, guards always open their own door before the train comes to
a halt. If there is a wall, or an empty void, then this is immediately
apparent. Does this/could this procedure take place in NYC? ]
Not on the subways, as there isn't a door in the cab area where the conductors are.
It is the practice on the now retiring LIRR diesel fleet, though. The conductor turns a key on the platform which opens the door at that position, and activates the buttons which will (usually :) ) open the doors trainline in front and behind him/her.
The new diesel coaches have door controls in a small open "compartment", kind of like a cab, but without any door, seat, or operating controls. This will probably make it harder for conductors who are "vertically challenged" to properly see the train in the platform.
Note that the LIRR doesn't have "indication boards" like the subways does, and I've seen trains where the doors open when not fully on the platform, but I haven't seen any "wrong-side" incidents.
taught to stick their head out and observe the platform conditions
before opening the doors.>
The only time my head goes out the window is when I'm closing the doors and observing the platform as the train leaves. In most stations I can see the board while standing in the cab, so the only thing that goes out the window is my hand. Since I can still count on one hand the people who have taken swings at my head, I see no reason to give them any more of a chance than I already do.
The rules require that you observe the platform for 3 car lengths. If your head is not out the window, you are not performing your job properly. Of course, as I mentioned previously, there are numerous conductors who can't observe the platform without standing on a milk box. Step ladders would be dangerous so either mandate shoes with lifts or enforce a height requirement for safety.
This may sound like a really stupid question, so please forgive me. Regarding the rule of pointing to the board, does that mean physically point to the board the way a tourist would point to, say, the Empire State Building from the Statue of Liberty?
I still find it difficult, if not impossible, to understand how a conductor could open up on the wrong side. It's just common sense.
I wouldn't be surprised if more of those "Do not open up - Wrong side!" signs used at 59th St. and Hoyt-Schermerhorn start appearing at other stations.
The Rail Historian believes that any Conductor of train who has opened the doors on the wrong side MUST BE FIRED IMMEDIATELY. The Union must not support him or her. This is 100% neglegence on the part of the Conductor who is totally in charge of the train. Of course this all assumes no equipment problem.
Dump a few people on the track and you have big trouble.
You can say that again.
[ egarding the rule of pointing to the board, does that mean physically
point to the board the way a tourist would point to, say, the Empire
State Building from the Statue of Liberty? ]
Yup. And in the case of opening on the wrong side or otherwise, it means pointing at a tunnel wall or out into space, and then opening up.
Maybe they should just get rid of the trainline doors, and have them manually operated, like on the (shortly to be retired) 2900 series LIRR coaches.
Of all the LIRR fleet, those had the most reliable doors.
(They are manually operated, and there's little to break!).
In Phila. the new M-4 Market cars are opened by the motorman (or women
from his/her seated position in the cab. The operator then watches TV screns which show both sides of the train. The cute thing is that yellow signs have been posted at the front end of each station platform saying "right doors " or "left" doors. Now why do you think
they had to do that?
Chuck Greene
To stop the operator from opening the wrong side of the train!
I know that. I was just using a little joke. It really helps out in case the operator gets distracted or forgets.
Chuck Greene
But that requires they read english!!
NYC Boards are just that, BOARD THERE, OPEN. Board NOT THERE, Don't Open!
No reading or knowing your right from your left required.
That's about as funny as putting "open other end" on the bottoms of Coke bottles.
[That's about as funny as putting "open other end" on the bottoms of Coke bottles.]
This Rail Historian will drink to that thought.
Conductors must POINT to the indication board before opening the doors. Supervisors observe from the platorm if they do it too. The number of times doors have opened on the wrong side has dramaticly increased this year (up to 7 or 8?? I know there was 6 a month ago).
They have even installed a "voting machine" so the T/O can vote on which side the doors open on a few trains as a test.
And you should just read the howls of outrage from the conductors in the previous thread about the "voting machine." It seems some of them think that their prerogatives are more important than passenger safety.
Passenger safety wasn't an issue untill a SMALL percentage
of UNDERTRAINED and IMPROPERLY SCREENED for employment
Conductors began opening on the wrong side. Money is the
chief issue with the Transit Authority, and safety is only
as important as it relates to saving money and preventing
bad publicity. As a non employee I wouldn't expect you or
any one else who hasn't experienced the Authority's utter
contempt for their employees to understand.
Although my preogitive as to being vehemently against this
or any other device that takes away the conductor's
responsibilty or authority is based on an instinct of self
preservation, it's also based on reality.
Training and operations come from the operating budget.
Improvements to the system come from the capitol budget.
The operating budget is the only one they really care
about because it's funding is limited. The capitol budget
has new and greater funding (basically) each year. So the
constraints on use of those funds is more relaxed.
There is frequently excess money in the capitol budgets
for many reasons. If that money remains unspent they will
either have to return it or the the following year they
will have that amount deducted from the grants they
reccieve. So they spend frivilously.
It's this duality of funding that drives some of the
innane experiments with technology at the TA.
So if they can save cash (operating budget) on training
idiots as conductors by spending a fourtune of capitol
improvement dollars on some tom foolery device, then
they're happy. It makes them look like they are doing
something, and it didn't cost them anything, Technically.
And I don't wan't to hear anything about how those funds
are meticulously accounted for. That's Bull. We all know
any good accountant can creatively fudge the numbers. ALL
government agencies do it. TA is no exception.
Satan runs the TA.
speaking as a former Conductor myself it really has noting to do with training it is more the result of the person themself not paying attention to the job/duties. Inattention in any job title can be unsafe for oneself or others involved.
Did I not also mention that the new hires are not properly screened before employment?
Last week I explained how it's not always innatention. Proper training on the layout of the line would help.
But the only thing that will raise the level of professionalism and consequently lower these types of incidents is more training and better screening of applicants. The current civil service system must go. People have to know how serious their job is. We need to hire adults with a satisfactory work history, and who have a comitment to the job. Not people who veiw it as a stepping stone to motorman or whatever.
What level of preemployment screening are we talking about here? what moron couldn't see that a platform does not exist and still open train doors? the title and job of Conductor used to mean something. The training provided in school car isn't what it should be for the title of Conductor or for that fact any other title. Break in for C/R is one day for most lines and on some its split between two shorter lines for an 8 hour day. Lets see something, an individual from an open comptetive list for Conductor is still held to the same standards as a promotion to C/R which is under collective bargaining and civil service rules. Disciplining a rule violation is up to the severity of the infraction (warning,reprimand,suspension,dismissal) not in this order. Opening the doors without a platform is a dangerous pratice which should warrant dismissal.
If an applicant were using Conductor as a STEPPING STONE for another title wouldn't they be more mindful of their job performance?
The stepping stone attitude was in reference to the fact that in the previous contracts we gave up:
Work Trains
Revenue Collection Trains
Refuse Collection Trains
Some of our platform jobs to Station Agents
Some of our Construction Flagging work
The Shop Bugging Jobs
Put ins
Lay ups
OPTO
ALL, because our fellow conductors didn't care enough, or get involved enough to fight for their own jobs. Why? Because they viewed it as a stepping stone to another job.
Now as for what prerequisites i'd have? Foremost is a SERIOUS background check. Has the applicant been fired before? What types of jobs has he/she held? A customer service background would be helpful. Education? The types of things employers in the rest of the world ask for.
As I wrote last week in response to Steve's post "is pointing enough?" he current civil service system tests some basic knowledge, but NOT inteligence. You could memorize all the facts and figures you want. Stil doesn't mean your'e smart. Too many people confuse inteligence and knowledgability. I could go on. Just read the response I posted to Steve's.
Yes and I remember the good old days when at East NY, the crew for shop moves included two motorman and a conductor to trolley. Boy, I wish we still had the RTO trolley person. The C/R also threw the hand switches in the yard. If you guys demand the trolley jobs back for RTO, I think DCE Management would support it.
Handswitchmen(conductors) still throw the switches in East New York Yard and Canarsie Yard as well. In 38th Street Yard there is one hand switchman at the head of the yard and the work train motormen handle the rest.
There is another factor in training which bears attention. Quality, as well as quantity made a big difference in the way "old school motormen" were churned out. In the old days, the Motorman Instructors in school car had 20 to 30 years on the job with 10 to 15 average as a motorman. They knew not only their stuff, but didn't hide their mistakes as well. I'd sit in class with half the time listening about an old timer's error because it was part of the curriculum. The TSS of today includes some who just got the job with the two year T/O requirement. They swear by a book instead of reality. One had a derailment as a T/O and they gave him the promo anyway. At the least a TSS should KNOW his car equipment! Some of the new ones don't. I heard today that out of the 1500 T/Os who took the TSS last month, only 500 passed. Did Eric mention that Satan runs the TA? I think he's right.
Maybe it's time for an exorcism....
Who says that the new 'hires' are not properly screened? I'll have you to know that of the 2 or 3 dozen Road Car Inspectors hired in April, and put through 8 weeks of rigorous training, ONLY eleven were just fired because it was found that once they got out into the field, they mysteriously lost the ability to communicate in english.
I think I am beginning to agree with you. Livingston Plaza has been over-run by morons. BTW - How doyou say "Beam Me UP, Scotty" in Russian?
When I worked in Coney Island Maint. there were a lot of Russian Immigrants working there. I'd presume because of the proximity to Brighton Beach.
One had actually worked on M.U. cars in the Soviet Union. He (purportedly) had tutored his comrades on the technology. Subsequently they took the civil service exam and were hired as Car Inspectors. One had been a hair dresser and another was a school teacher. One was eventually promoted to MS II. He had a fondness for calling the hispanics in the shop "maticonski"
How do you open up the doors on the wrong side? Unless it is a sick joke or you're just stupid, how can you not see what side to open up on?
My feelings exactly. It's enough to make you say, DUHHH!!!!
Seems like alot of scatter brains who aren't paying attention to their duties as Conductor are making it harder on the ones who do their jobs consiecniously(check the spelling please). Stop reading the paper or paperback, chatting with the foxy babe or dude and do your JOB! personally making the announcement as the train was entering the station makes more sense so as you're making the announcement your see LIGHT from the platform and hey then you open he doors!.
Even new C/R's who are too wet behind the ears are making these stupid mistakes, Look up look out the window if the train stops is the train stopped in a station? if you see tunnel or bright sunshine and not PEOPLE and C/R board your not in the proper position...
I couldn't agree with you more.
A number of factors contribute to this cause. 1) The TA does not properly train and supervise new conductors today as in the past, actually the people teaching them have hardly any experiecne themselves, 2) A lot of these clowns just don't pay attention, (like they're too busy staring at some woman's behind and not what they should be looking at), 3) The TA hires anybody and everybody these days all in the good old name of politics. I may sound like a radical, but I've been a conductor now for almost 13 years and all these people do is make my job harder. I have enough to
contend with - I don't need some supervisor telling me about the same old nonsense day in and day out just because of a bunch of morons that don't know what they are doing. I'm cutting myself short here because I could go on for hours about this - I hope I made my point.
Actully there are a Lot of High Seniority Conductors that work Midnights so they don't have to worry about lots of people. The Low Seniorty T/O and C/R work the PM Tour. Like 3PM TO Midnight because everyone aviods the PM Rush Hours if the can.
Aren't the conductors just plain scared to keep their heads out of the window for extended periods of time because of all the nice people who spit, throw garbage and punch them as the train is traveling at high speeds through the station?
I remember as a boy that the conductors position had a step to help them get up higher to see a little better.
Yes that is the main reason why some Conductors are affiad to stick there heads out the window and I really don't blame them. There people like you said who trow objects at the Conductors head. On A Division a Conductor is injured at least once a mouth or more. I always look out for my conductor. If I see a strange person with an object I will slow my train down and Inform my conductor. You just know when somethings up. When I was new and it was my 2nd year as a Motorman. My Conductor was getting spit at and closed the window but hurt his hand so ofcause he pulled the cord and told me he was hurt. So I ran back there and Discharged the train. I was fuming over that incident. I acted so fast . So anyway I went into 137 Street Middle where there was a Motor Instructor. The Conductor wanted to go to that Hospital around 215 Street. So we held up the Road and it was full speed to 215 Street where the Motor Instructor and Conductor got off and I took the train to 240 Yard.
You've got a valid point, there. I would be a bit aprehensive about sticking my head out of a subway window at some stations. The conductors do get a lot of abuse. Forget being spit on, kids throw rock at the conductors' heads and some people even fire gun shots at certain conductors.
Seems to me one solution is to just grab the offending kids as the train goes by. Once the train is at full speed they could just be thrown into the tunnel.
True. The lowest seniority people work late PM's. You are pounding the road all evening and then get jammed up in General Order Diversions on your last trip. Just when it's time to go home! There are lots of people who would rather work midnites than the PM shift. Customers act more civilized in the AM rush because they're sleepy, The midnite personell will take them to work toward the end of their shift. On the PM, the passengers act like animals.
That's not true! Just look at me. I understand there are still lots of those lousy early p.m. jobs left.
Was the Nostrand Ave. station on the A,C lines once called Bedford-Nostrand @ one time? I believe there is a closed exit at Bedford and Fulton............... Anybody clarify this...........
3TM
Despite the IND taste for giving double names to some stations (Kingston-Throop, for example), old IND maps don't show Bedford attached to the Nostrand Avenue name.
The Fulton L also had a Nostrand Ave. station.
Bedford-Nostrand is the stop on the G you may be thinking of.
I never thought Sea Beach Man would be looking forward to riding another train as much as the Sea Beach, but I'm looking forward to riding the #7 train out to Shea Stadium to watch my Mets play. You New Yorkers have the best of both worlds. Get on the #7 or #4 trains and go out and watch two great baseball teams whenever you want, and the Mets have become an outstanding team. Meanwhile out here in California we have the dregs in the Angels and Dodgers, both of whom are mired in last place. There is no escape because they are always on TV stinking up the place. I'd like to start my own cable company so I could get WWOR and watch the Mets anytime I want. It was great to wake up this morning and see the Mets in first place all by themselves. How about a Mets-Yankees World Series. Believe me, more than New York would be jumping and jiving.
[ I'd like to start my own cable company so I could get
WWOR and watch the Mets anytime I want. ]
Unfortunately, Fred, the local broadcast arrangements for NY baseball have been changed since you've been here!
FOX bought the right to all of the Yankees games that used to be on WPIX. Shortly thereafter, WPIX bought the Mets games that were on WWOR. Now, WWOR has no baseball.
Steve K: I see that Ruppert Murdock has put his greasy, grimy, and filthy hands on NY TV as well. I hope they televise enough Mets games so you can see a good team in action. Rup always has the Dodgers on out here and it makes me want to throw up. Strange, though, because the Dodgers followed by out to California three and a half years after I left NY. However, while I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers, and belong to their fan club, I have no feeling except hostility to the LA Dodgers.
Actually,Fred, if you want to see the Mets, all you got to do is buy a DSS satellite dish and subscribe to the MLB Extra Innings package. This will pick up all the Mets games on Fox Sports NY (about 1/2 to 6/10 of the schedule) plus anytime the Mets are on somebody elses Sportschannel..(not to mention WGN and TBS...) Now, to put this back on topic (sort of...), I absolutely cant stand anytime the Mets are on either FOX or NBC, they show the #7 and some dope announcer keeps either hummng or mentions somethinf to the effect of: "take the 'A' train to to see the Mets...or some other drivel....
Slightly off topic, but the 7 train did make the news today because of a billboard in Sunnyside that supposedly has an anti-immigrant message. The story referred to the number of immigrants taking the 7 and its designation as a National Historic Route by Hillary last month.
Thanks for the info Lou. If you know how much they cost let me know. When I get back from New York, I'll look into it. Sounds like a great idea; too bad I didn't think of it. That's what I like about this web site. There are plenty of helpful people. I fly to NY tomorrow and one of my friends who used to play baseball for me and is now a major league asst. scouting director got me tickets for the whole four game series starting this Friday against the hated Dodgers.
I'm planning to enjoy myself and the Mets winning.
I've got tickets for Friday night against the Dodgers. I have every intention of standing and applauding when they announce Todd Hundley.
-Hank
Hey, that's great Hammering Hank. You root for Todd and I'll scream for Mike Piazza, who will probably win the NL MVP Award this year. I wish Hundley the best and hope his arm comes back. He's not the reason the Dodgers suck.
Well, I'm a Mets fan all the way, but I really think the way they treated Hundley last year was horrible. I mean, here's a guy, who, when the team traded for a replacement, turned around and said 'I'll try to play left field if you promise not to trade me' Having met him once, I can say he's a really nice guy (unlike Ordonez, who, as good a feilder as he is, is too arrogant), and I truly believe he got a raw deal from the Mets (Hundley, that is)
-Hank
It seems that after Hundley had elbow surgery, he became "damaged goods".
Speaking of the Dodgers, look who's managing them. Only the most successful manager in Met history, next to Gil Hodges.
Hey fred..Im going on Sunday! Wanna meet somewhere?? As far as the DSSh is concerned..check out eBay.com...they are always having incredibly cheap Dutch auctions of DSS dishes...sometimes you can pick one up for as little as $30!!!! I SWEAR!!!
One more thing Lou. I'm glad I haven't heard those morons singing take the "A" train. It shows they are idiots when it comes to knowing the New York Subway. If you don't know anything about the New York subway then you don't know much at all
You would have been able to "take the A train" to see the Mets at the Polo Grounds in 1962 and 1963. Well, most of the way, anyway. The D train would get you there the rest of the way.
Fox do the same thing with the Yankees.... They always show passengers getting off the 4 train.........
Steve K: I see that Ruppert Murdock has put his greasy, grimy, and filthy hands on NY TV as well. I hope they televise enough Mets games so you can see a good team in action. Rup always has the Dodgers on out here and it makes me want to throw up. Strange, though, because the Dodgers followed me out to California three and a half years after I left NY. However, while I loved the Brooklyn Dodgers, and belong to their fan club, I have no feeling except hostility to the LA Dodgers.
Few weeks ago, I took the F train to Coney Island and noticed
there were R-27s and R-30s painted redbird style in the yard. I am
qwondering will these cars soon become a "Nostalgia Train" in the 21st Century? Could they use these cars to take tours of the IND and BMT
network?
When the first group of Subway Cars built in married-pairs
arrived to the IND and BMT lines in the 1960s, which lines did they
operate on? Which letter markings were on the original roll signs in
the 1960s?
James S. Li
Joe Korner has scanned in a route roll sign from an R27 on his page
(see http://www.quuxuum.org/~joekor/rollsigns/index.html).
The R-27s ushered in BMT letter markings. Along with letters, they included the old Southern Division titles along with the new route designations, which for most Southern Division routes was "Broadway". AFAIK, they first appeared on the Brighton line in daily service. Later, when more cars had arrived on the property, they provided all weekend service on the Southern Division. This included the QB, N, RR, T (Saturdays), and TT (nights and Sundays). With their arrival, all of the BMT oddball units, SIRT cars, and unrebuilt BMT standards were retired.
Yes, the R27s first appeared on the Brighton Local (QT/QB) starting in October or November of 1960, and ran only on that line until it was fully equipped with the new cars about 6 months later. (Except for a few days during a snowstorm that winter when the new cars were temporarily transferred to the RR line, which was totally underground. I guess the problems that R16s had with snow made the TA skittish about their new R27s.)
The next line to receive the new cars was the 4th Ave. local (RR). On weekdays, the R27/R30s generally only appeared on these two lines. As SteveB said, on weekends, they were on all lines in the southern division by mid-1962, and did so until the R32s started arriving in 1964.
-- Ed Sachs
Didn't the Triplexes stay on the Brighton until the R-32s arrived? I will say this much: there is a photo in New York Transit Memories of a Triplex train signed up as a West End #3 on the Astoria branch which is dated July 5, 1963. That would predate the R-32s by more than a year.
Yes, the triplexes were on the line until the R32s arrived. But they didn't run on weekends after the r27s came.
I'll be in Oak Brook, IL tomorrow for a meeting which ends at about 11AM. With the rest of the day free, I thought I'd look into combining two of my favorite pastimes -- riding the rails and watching some baseball.
Can anyone point me in the right direction? I need to go from Oak Brook to Wrigley Field, and then from Wrigley to O'Hare after the game.
Thanks in advance,
Chuck
1) Wrigley Field to O'Hare is easy: paying $1.50 fare, catch any southbound ("To 95th Street") Red Line train from Addison to the SECOND stop in the Washington station. (The first is called Washington & Lake; if you get off there in error, simply wait for the next southbound train and take it to the next stop.) Go DOWN the stairs marked "Blue Line" in the middle of the platform (NOT the stairs UP to the mezzanine) and go through the transfer tunnel to the Washington station on the Blue Line. There, catch any train northwest-bound ("To O'Hare") to the end of the line, O'Hare station.
2) Oakbrook to Wrigley Field is a bit harder to give directions for, since Oakbrook itself has no Metra service, and I don't know what part of Oakbrook you will be in. Metra's UP-West Line goes through the suburbs just north of Oakbrook (Elmhurst and Lombard) and takes one into Northwestern Station, Madison and Canal Streets. Metra's BNSF Line runs through the suburbs due south of Oakbrook (Hinsdale, Clarendon Hills, Westmont) and ends at Union Station, Adams and Canal Streets. Any station you'd board on either line in the named suburbs would be Zone D, which to downtown (Zone A, of course) is $3.15 for a one way ticket. If the station you board at has a ticket agent on duty (not likely), buying the ticket from the agent avoids a $1 fee for paying fares on the train when a ticket agent is available. If there is no agent on duty, there is NO extra fee for buying the ticket on the train. Consult the Metra website at www.metrarail.com for timetables, which are available online for all Metra routes.
Once you get to either Union or Northwestern Station on Metra, catch a 14, 20, 56, or 157 CTA bus eastbound on Washington (the street north of Madison) or a 1, 129, 130, or 151 CTA bus eastbound on Jackson (the street south of Adams) to State Street. Ask for a transfer (and pay $1.80 for the fare and transfer) when you get ON the bus. Once you get to State Street, go down into the Red Line subway and use the transfer to get through the turnstile. Take any northbound ("To Howard") train to Addison, and the ballpark is one block west of the station: you cannot miss it!
From Oak Brook -- There is also Pace bus route #322 which goes from the Oak Brook Mall to the 54/Cermak terminal of the Douglas branch of the Blue line via 22nd St/Cermak Rd.
-- Ed Sachs
[From Oak Brook -- There is also Pace bus route #322 which goes from the Oak Brook Mall to the 54/Cermak terminal of the Douglas branch of the Blue line via 22nd St/Cermak Rd.]
Yes, but the Douglas or 54th/Cermak service runs only on weekdays.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim, John and Ed --
Thanks for the info. Now all I need is for my client to cooperate and keep things short and I'll have a great afternoon.
Thanks,
Chuck
One additional thought--the Blue Line/Douglas/54th-Cermak is even slower than the NYC subways--long stretches are limited to 25 mph and some sections are posted with a 6 mph speed limit. A nice ride but very slow. That's a reason it's been on the list of reconstructions even acknowledged by the Illinois Legislature and Governor (whether it gets rebuilt is another question, though).
I just rode it two weeks ago--the ride is fun, but not if you're in a hurry. Unless you have no connections to make anywhere, I wouldn't depend on it.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
What yard does the 42nd St. shuttle operate out of and how do the trains arrive and leave?
The cars are serviced at Livonia Yard at the south end of the 3 line. The cars on Track 1 & 3 come in from the downtown Lex local, while Track 4 comes from the uptown Bway local
Thank you Alex.
Just received a summary of the FFY 2000 - 2004 Transportation Improvement Summary. The following is a short list of Transit improvements proposed for Federal Fundingin FY 2000-2004. The complete document, along with its companion of other NY area transportation projects can be found at www.nymtc.org as a downloadable file under Transportation Improvement Program.
PURCHASE/REBUILD RAPID TRANSIT CARS:
325 NEW A DIVISION CARS 487.500 - 2000-01
680 NEW B DIVISION CARS 1320.000 - 01-02
390 NEW B DIVISION CARS 780.000 - 02-03
REPLACE GAP FILLERS:
Times Sq 3.00 01-02
Union Sq 20.600 99-00
ESCALTOR REPLACEMENT:
8 at Bowling Green
16 at Herald Sq
STATION RECONSTRUCTION:
Lexington Ave (E/F)
Times Sq - phase 2
West 4th St
STATION ACCESSABILITY (ADA):
Pelham Pkway/ WP Road
74th St/Roosevelt Ave Complex
Jay St
96/ Bway
Chambers St/7th Ave
DeKalb Ave
Queens Plz
Myrtle/Wyckoff
Fordham Rd/Jerome
Times Sq
West 4
Columbus Circle complex
Flushing Ave/Jamaica
Prospect Park/ Brighton
179 th St
Junction Blvd
STATION REHABILITATION:
Myrtle Ave/Canarsie
Pelham Pkway/WP Rd
42/8
8th St/Bway
Delancey/Essex complex
Chambers St/ Nassau loop
Prince St
74/ Roosevelt complex
Gun Hill rd /WP Rd
Jay St
City Hall/ Bway
14/ 6 complex
77/Lex
96/Bway
Chambers/ 7 Ave
DeKalb
86/Lex
149/ Grand Concourse complex
14/ Bway
Queens Plz
5th Ave/ Flushing
E. 180
Wyckoff/Myrtle
23/ Bway
116/Lex
Jerome Ave line from 138 to Woodlawn
Gates Ave
Hewes St
Brook St
President St
Ave M
Neck Rd
Flushing Ave
Ave U/ Brighton
NEW PASSENGER TRANSFER:
Bway-Lafayette - Bleeker
Jay St - Lawrence
ELEVATED STRUCTURE REHABILITATION:
Nassau line Reconfiguration
Sheepshead bay - West 8St / Brighton
E. 180 -241 St
Atlantic Ave interlocking
Culver viaduct
Stillwell Terminal viaduct
SIGNALS:
Solid-state interlocking (pilot) - Nassau/ Crosstown
Communications-based signal system - Flushing
Interesting list. Does it say if the station rehab and accessability projects listed according to priority or in no particular order?
Could there be a way to build an transfer between the #3 and L at Livonia Av?
Finally someone that is on my team here, THANK YOU. I have been asking for this for a long time..........
3TM
It seems to make sense to me. I don't know if the issue is one of usage, but it seems that anywhere else in the system where a transfer can be made within two blocks, it exists except here.
Look at the Nassau/Fulton comlex. Though the area is heavily travelled, connections exist along Fulton from Broadway to William Street. Thats about two blocks across.
The only thing between the two lines is a stretch of railway(according to my Hagstrom NYC Atlas-I assume the Linden wye track).
What about the LIRR Bay Ridge Line, it's there too!
The railraod tracks are there as well, but as mentioned earlier, there is an unused mezzanine at the Junius end of the station. It can be easily converted to a passenger transfer. It seems that this transfer would make sense. Case in point: the fire at Sutter a couple of weeks ago. This force L trains to run between Rock Pky and Livonia. From there, passengers needed a block ticket to walk to the 3. This transfer would be something like the Franklin transfer in which the main purpose of that transfer is the GO's on the Brighton and vice versa.....BTW, the railroad is open cut so it is really not a factor..........
3TM
This former mezzanine building, still suspended beneath the elevated structure, is less than fifty feet from the pedestrian ovepass that leads to the Sutter Avenue BMT station. It should be a no-brainer to reactivate this and connect it to the Canarsie line.
Wayne
You mean Livonia station right???????
3TM
YES. SORRY got my stations mixed up. And to think I was just there a couple of weeks ago! Shame on me! :~o
Wayne
You are forgiven, we all make simple mistakes. As long as we have people backing us up....
3TM
Or is it because we are all perceived as being simple ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
3 7th Avenue Express,
L riders respond
How many people do you estimate will use the connection; Julius and Livonia Avenues (3/L)? And the total costs involve?
3 7th Avenue Express,
L riders respond
How many people do you estimate will use the connection; Julius and Livonia Avenues (3/L)? And the total costs involve?
N Broadway Local
Im sure that many people will use the transfer. I remember talking to someone who lived around the New Lots Station. He said that he takes the B6 bus to Rock Pkwy to pick up the L. Im sure he is passing Livonia Av to his destination. Im also sure that he is not doing this alone. Many people will use this transfer...... Remember that Kevin Costner movie..... "If you build it they would come.........."
With the unlimited Metrocard, I already use this to go from Ridgewood to Grand Army Plaza or Flatbush. It took a half hour to get to the Plaza. Otherwise, Ridgewood is not a well connected area. The buses to downtown, or the B6 to the L are pretty long trips, and then there is going all the way through Manhattan. the 3 to the L even seems to be quicker than the L to the A/C to the Franklin Shuttle.
Probably about $200,000-400,000 give or take a few shekels. They need to punch two holes in the platform, install two stairways, renovate and rehabilitate the old mezzanine, build a short pedestrian walkway, and install some fencing etc. There may be some other items in addition to the above.
Wayne
I just don't see the MTA spending all that money for a connection b/t the 3/L. They will be better off moving the station east a couple of blocks, then, what you are proposing wayne? Besides, how many people are expected to use the connection? Remember, the 3 is a local into Manhattan compare to the A; and will require people to transfer three times (L to 3, then 4) just to achieve a time savings. And the 3 doesn't run as often as the A.
Put the 4 out there, and you have some competition!
What would you acheive moving the station a couple of blocks? There is still no transfer. I think that this transfer would improve service on both lines..... I could think of a couple of reasons. BTW, the only way I see the 4 going to New Lots at all times is if they build connection for the Utica Ave line and send the 3 down
to KP.....
4TM
"What would you acheive moving the station a couple of blocks?"
First, #4 line, it will eliminate the inconvenience of having to walk two blocks to make the transfer, which greatly affects people's traveling patterns. I know my aunt rather transfer to trains on the same platform then trains located at distance connections. Even though it might mean a longer trip.
And, the cost of making the transfer possible must be justified. There is no way the MTA is going to pump thousand of dollars just so a few people could use the connection. It just makes since, #4 line.
N Broadway Local
>but it seems that anywhere else in the system where a transfer can be made within two blocks, it
exists except here. <
Actually I can think of another place where there are two stations within 2 blocks that aren't connected... 8st on the N/R and AStor Pl. on the 6... but that's probably because the next (Northbound) stop on both lines is Union Sq. and there is a transfer there...
Mike
Also, Broadway-Nassau on the IND and Prince Street on the BMT, which are less than a block from each other.
I thought it was Bway-Lafayette and Prince St.......
Oops! You're absolutely right.
Here's one for the books: Lafayette Ave. on the A/C and Fulton St. on the G. They're practically side-by-side, yet there is no transfer - most likely because there is an across-the-platform connection at Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
What about City Hall on the N/R and Park Place on the 2/3? They're practically across the street from each other.
If City Hall were connected to Park Place on its west side and to Brooklyn Bridge (4/5/6) on its east side, I think it would become a very useful transfer complex, connecting six (!) stations (Chambers J/M/Z, Brooklyn Bridge, City Hall, Park Place, Chambers A/C, WTC C/E), albeit with a bit of walking.
Would it get used? I think so. The N/R connects with the 6 at Canal but requires a transfer to the 4/5 one stop later to go any further south -- now it would connect directly to the 4/5/6. The nearest connections between the N/R and the 2/3 are in Brooklyn and at Times Square. When the J terminates at Chambers, transfers to the 2/3 and A/C have required an annoying one-stop ride on the 4/5 to Fulton -- now it would be a direct transfer.
Wait a second -- there's a problem with this plan: City Hall lower level is in the way. If it could be eliminated, a passageway could be run from Park Place two levels below ground (one level above the 2/3) to the lower level of City Hall; it would continue across City Hall Park and up one flight to the Brooklyn Bridge mezzanine.
Some interesting things I see there:
SIGNALS:
Solid-state interlocking (pilot) - Nassau/ Crosstown
Communications-based signal system - Flushing
I thought the C-B signaling was supposed to go on the Canarsie Line, not Flushing..
And anyone know about this interlocking project? For the Nassau loop, or the "G" line?
seriously is this for real? it seems so overboard. no to say that it wouldnt be great to have this work done but is it feasible? with reagrd to the stations mentioned, does this mean for sure that they will be done? what are the deciding factors, besides money?
BETWEEN PLANNING PERMITS SEQRA AND OTHER ROADBLOCKS WE'LL BE LUCKY IF 1/2 OF THIS LIST COMES TO FRUITION BY 2010
These are PROPOSALS only to try and get money under the Federal TEA-21 program. Anything more at this time would be sheer guesswork.
Interesting List. For "fans" of subways running over the East River Bridges, there are two interesting improvements recommended in the East River Crossing study. The Jay St -- Lawrence transfer means that when the Manhattan Bridge fails, after passengers on 50 trains squeeze onto 25 trains at DeKalb, some of them can get off and transfer to the F at Lawrence. Sheer hell for one stop.
The Bleeker St transfer means that all 6th Ave riders can go up the #6 to East Midtown, a worthwhile improvement.
The rest seems like rebuild-as-is, unless the Nassau Line elevated? rehabilitation means eliminating the curve and running the J/Z straight down Jamaica Ave. But that's OK. With the procedural hell the FEDs put you through, all their money should be used to rebuild-as-is. City and state money should be used for improvements.
I hadn't noticed a problem with the W. 4th St station. Surely there are stronger candidates for reconstruction than it.
It also looks like the B division will get replacement cars, at least for the R30.
Nassau line realignment probably has to do with the Chambers-Canal section. I heard the reason the Queens bound platform at Canal wasn't rebuilt was that both sides will use only the Manhattan bound platform.
If that's the case, I don't know why Nassau was included under "elevated"
I always liked the idea of a transfer at Jay/Lawrence. In case of emergency, transfer options from the Manhattan-bound 'F' are very limited (4th Avenue to 'M/N/R' down a very long, winding staircase); from the Manhattan-bound 'A/C', they're practically non-existent! Other than the Franklin shuttle, once it re-opens (and you would still have to go out out your way and transfer again), if there's a problem before Jay Street, you're stuck! If the problem's after Jay Street, everyone is forced to squeeze onto the already-overcrowded 'F'. Many people wishing to go from one part of Brooklyn served by the 'A/C' to another part served by other lines often have to go all the way to Broadway-Nassau for connections. A new transfer at Jay/Lawrence would open up many new options.
Also much needed is to tie Queensboro and Queens Plazas together. This would open another connection between the '7' and 'E/F/G/R', and make it easier for people coming from Astoria on the 'N' to get to other parts of Queens without having to go under the river twice. Not to mention the convenience when the Manhattan-bound '7' throws everyone off at the Plaza due to construction or equipment trouble, forcing everyone onto the 'N'.
On a personal note, I take the '7' daily from Flushing to Vernon-Jackson, and when the above described disruption takes place, I'm forced to walk a good mile from the Plaza to my office. This is not a pleasant undertaking in the wintertime. It would be nice to be able to switch over to the 'E/F' to 23-Ely or 'G' to Van Alst (at least till the 'G' is permanently cut back). Whenever I ask the Queensboro Plaza booth person for a block transfer, they won't give me one. "Take the 'N' into Manhattan" is invariably the response. No one seems to be able to accept the fact that not everyone in Queens works in Manhattan, and that many people DO work in extreme riverfront Long Island City.
Just venting-
I don't think that having a transfer at Queensboro Plaza with the E,F,G,R Queens Plaza is a good idea.If you go outside the station Queens Plaza you should see the station are far apart.They look close at the subway map but they are really far apart.Also if you would make a transfer you would have to be in the front of the trains at Queens Plaza.
"Also much needed is to tie Queensboro and Queens Plazas together. This would open another connection between the '7'
and 'E/F/G/R', and make it easier for people coming from Astoria on the 'N' to get to other parts of Queens without
having to go under the river twice. Not to mention the convenience when the Manhattan-bound '7' throws everyone off at
the Plaza due to construction or equipment trouble, forcing everyone onto the 'N'."
No one won't benefit from this connection but G train Riders from the N in Astoria. Other than that, it's a waste of money.
A better idea would be a Connection between the E/F/G and the number 7 at Court Square. Any comments on how much a connection like that will cost?
Ditto for that one. Especially if the G is to terminate at Court Sq in the near futre......
3TM
Ditto for that one. Especially if the G is to terminate at Court Sq in the near future......
3TM
why not a connection from Queensboro Plaza(7) to Queens Plaza(E/F/G/R) ?
As I said before it is too far seperated.But in the subway map it is close.
As usual division A is getting less new cars. Division B is in much better shape, the BMT and IND trains ride great and are a hell of alot more comfortable than the IRT ones.
When is the IRT ever going to replace those rickety redbirds? They are on so many lines, and the 7 has the luxury of having all redbirds. Redbirds were nice for their time but it's almost the year 2000 here, I think I could do without poor A/C, lousy bench seating, and the very rough ride the redbirds give.
And the flickering of lights, which is downright annoying.
Also, the station for the 7 at GCT needs improvement badly, as the narrow platform can barely hold rush hour crowds.
I think the plan is to replace all the redbirds up front. The cars for the B division may or may not get ordered; the order for the A division is a done deal. After the R142s come in, the entire A division fleet will be post-1980. Aside from a small number of R68s, the entire B division fleet will be pre-1975. I expect the B division to AVERAGE 40 years old at some point before a large number of new trains starts to come it. Better keep the maintenance up.
This Rail Historian wants you to know that a silver engraved master controller handle was given to John B. McClennan, the Mayor of the City of New York, from August Belment for operating the first IRT subway train out of City Hall station on October 27,1904 at 2:34pm.
This Rail Historian has seen this controller handle at the New York Historical Society in 1979. Anyone have a photograph of it?
What were the car numbers of the first train?
Have a photo in a book where you can see the controller handle
The first car in the inaugural train was 3340 or 3341, either the August Belmont or John Mcdonald. Mayor GEORGE McClellan had to enter from the rear vestibule in order to get inside the motorman's cab. He had so much fun running that train, he didn't give up the controls until they got to 103rd St.
Went out to lunch today, and went down to Canal St to look for some miscellaneous electrical equipment. Took the B'way line down and back.
First, the Defect Report. R46 #6200 has a broken speedometer. Reads 0 at all times (or at least for my 3 station trip)
Secondly, I coincedentally ended up on the same car on the way back Northbound. Trivia question (for the group) -- how long was I at lunch?
1 hour, 50 min. give or take 10 min.
Thanks for the info. 6200 is one of many cars with a defective sensor cable which is currently a 'No Stock' item. (R-32s have Doplar Radar speedometers and do not have the same problem). The cables were purchased on a priority basis from the manufacturer in Racine, Wi. and several units were shipped last week. Car #6200 will be returned to perfect health on its' next inspection.
as to your question I assume that 6200 was on the R line going south. based on the running time from Canal St. to 95th St, lay-over time and the trip back, I'd say you were at lunch WAY TOO LONG :)
unless you are the boss.
No stock? Reminds me of the last coversation I had with my former supervisor at TA -- Materiel. When I was there, the motto was "what you want when you want it." We managed to do the TA's first inventory, and break the culture of "hide stuff off the books and hoard it" except in Track and Structures, where they've hidden away enough stuff to last 100 years. Like squirrels, they lose some of the stuff they bury.
Anyway, in the recession I was told the new motto was "would the world come to an end if we don't buy it." I don't know how they avoided deferred maintenance with no stock.
Have they progressed to "just in time" delivery yet? Some organizations don't seem to have the culture to handle it, but for those that can it is both cost effective and works very well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
SMS was supposed to make JIT possible in the TA. However, because of the intangibles and long lead times for many subway car parts, JIT just doesn't work.
Transit purchasing is bizzare. There are so few rail systems out there, and so few rail system builders, that you are basically dealing monopoly to monopoly. Buses are a little better, but not much -- we were pretty much dealing with GM, and they were BAAAD. No wonder they are only worth eight times earnings.
[However, because of the intangibles and long lead times for many
subway car parts, JIT just doesn't work.]
One major drawback of just-in-time delivery is that even brief shipment delays can be quite disruptive. A strike, bad weather, or other things can lead to shortages in very short order. JIT has many advantages over traditional inventory methods, of course, and in some cases they will outweigh this drawback. But it really isn't possible to conclude that JIT is superior in all circumstances.
The Rail Historian says that Fiorello LaGuardia operated the first train from Union Tpke-Kew Gardens to 169th Street on April 24, 1937. His dress was a typical motormans's stripped uniform with cap.
[ The Rail Historian says that Fiorello LaGuardia operated the first
train from Union Tpke-Kew Gardens to 169th Street on April 24, 1937.
His dress was a typical motormans's stripped uniform with cap. ]
You forgot that those uniforms were outlawed by Guiliani. He has a thing against strippers.
The Rail Historian meant striped and not stripped. Rudy couldn't operated train to safe his life however, I'll bet you that Ed Koch could.
Was Koch a railroad fan? Saw him in a newspaper article a few years ago riding in the front of a J train crossing the WIlliamburg.
As mayor, Ed Kock realized the value of the subay system to the life line of the city but he was no friend of the system. When Ruth (open baby-stroller) Messenger fought the TA over some safety vs femenist issues, Koh straddled the fence. Even when he represented the 19th CD (I believe) he gave transit little support. However, as with most revisionist democrats, he'd likely tell a different story today. Especially since he could take credit for the coincidental turn-around in the system.
I just found that I mis-spelled His Honor's name not once but twice. Both mis-spellings were totally unintentional.
Steve, I know it was unintentional, but "Doplar" is also misspelled. The correct spelling is "Doppler," the frequency shift phenomenon discovered by the Austrian physicist Christian Johann Doppler (1803–53) in 1842.
I'll bet he had no idea his discovery would be used to measure tornadic winds as well as calculate the speed of Hippo-68s!
And that's transit and weather together...
I thought the first one was pretty humorous, although that does not in any way imply a negative opinion of him.
Stripped was even better in the previous post.
Hey, Rudy running a slant 40 on CPW would probably be one of the fastest things going -- full throttle and on the horn all the way and none of those damn R-44s better get in the way or else...
Believe me, I wouldn't mind seeing a few slant R-40s on the A again. When they were there in the late 70s, it seemed as if they could actually outrun the R-10s, which was no easy task.
You couldn't count on 0both hands, the number of NY Pols. who have operated NYC Subway trains. However, if you are a true 'rail historian' then you can should have no problem with these 3 simple questions.
1) Who was the first NY Mayor to operate a NYC Subway train?
2) Who was the first NY Mayor to actually was a salaried motorman first? Why was he fired?
3) Which mayor was the first to operate a train on the SIRR?
Bonus Question; Why do you make all your posts in the 3rd person?
Ill give it a shot
#1 Mayor McClellan in 1904 opening of Contract One Line
#2 Mayor "Iron Mike" Hylan enginner on Steam Elevated lines of the BRT. Fired due to reckless operation, 1915 I think
#3 No idea
Steve L
The questions were for the 'historian' but as long as you opened the door:
1) is absolutely correct.
2) Reckless operation - he tried to run down his supervisor with his train. He later had the IND built specifically to run the BTR out of business. That's why so many IND/BMT lines are built seemingly in competition.
3) John V Lindsay when the first R-44s were delivered to the SIRR
Bonus Question: Only he knows
Reckless operation - he tried to run down his supervisor with his train
I've interpreted the reason Hylan was fired (from Cudahy, Fischler, ERA bulletins) that it wasn't intentional - legend says he was either not paying attention or reading one of his law books while operating the train. He was studying to take the bar exam while employed as a BRT motorman.
--Mark
In the A & E special "Empire Beneath the Streets", it was said that it was a deliberate act. I suppose that it may be urban folklore but lately I am beginning to appreciate the feeling.
[ Hylan intentionally tried to run down a supervisor ]
Sometimes you need to use simple common sense when evaluating a story. There is no indication that Hylan was embittered towardthe BRT before his firing, so would havethe desire to run anyone down. Second, he was close to his law degree at the time of the incident. Conviction for what could at least be considered manslaughter would have ended his law career before it got off the ground.
The most colorful story is that he was studing his law books at the same time he was operating his locomotive. I doubt this, although Hylan himself implied that maybe he was thinking a little too much about his upcoming exams instead of the railroad.
Actually Hylan's brief mention of the incident is (IMHO) worse than some others, when you think about it. He implied that the supervisor was an old fellow, and not too quick--i.e., it was somehow the supervisor's fault.
The reason I found this unflattering to Hylan is that it sounds like he's saying that he didn't slack his speed because he expected the supervisor to move faster--this is like saying "I hit the old lady at the intersection because I though she could move faster." That's practically reckless endangerment.
1) McClellan for the first IRT train. And as is well known, it was not a ceremonial photo-op, he ran it for quite some distance, to the considerable discomfort of IRT officials.
2) John Hylan, mayor 1918-1925. I have to quibble with "motorman," he was a locomotive engineer for the BRT. He was fired because he almost hit a company official, allegedly because he wasn't paying attention to his work.
3) I should know this but don't. I'll take a wild guess at Lindsay.
This Rail Historian suggests that New York City Transit place the G Trailer into revenue service on the Flushing Line between Willets Points to Queensboro Plaza Stations. It would run in a consist of the BU cars. Think of the heads that it will turn to look at it.
Why would you want to chance something hasppening to the oldest piece of remaning elevated equipment? I rode G numerous times at Branford with #1227, and thought that even then.
Yes, it would make quite a display, marker lights chopped off
by low tunnel clearances, and gapped out across the plant
at Willets Point.
Heads might turn to look at it but that's only because they're upset it didn't stop to pick them up. Having been on numerous trips with the D-Types & Low-V's, the "why isn't the train letting us on" reaction is more common than "wow, look at that old train". Of course, the wags shouting out the window that we've been riding around for 40 years doesn't help the image :-)
Is the MTA selling baseball cards here? Why the hell do they have to individually wrap each Metrocard? It's a waste of plastic and provides more litter to our city(especially in the subways!!!!!) Hey MTA-----Use the $$$$ to pkg these cards and use it more wisely.
Keep the wrapping. How do I know that the unwrapped card that I'm buying at a newsstand hasn't been used?
Don't buy it at a newsstand then. Don't be lazy, if you're gonna be riding the subway, buy your Metrocard there. If you're riding the bus, buy it at a subway station as well............
What if you live on Staten Island? What if you have a disability that
prevents you from entering a subway station?
The $4 day pass only comes from sources outside the system. Keep the wrappers. It's a guaruntee when you buy the card off-system. Also, what of bus customers who never see the inside of a subway station, or Steten Island, where there is but one place to purchase or refill a MetroCard, St. George?
-Hank
Yeah, that's a good idea. Make the system much less convenient to use (for some people) and eliminate the Fun Pass (which is only sold outside of subway stations) for the sake of -- well -- nothing whatsoever.
The Fun Pass should be sold in subway stations. That's a very stupid idea for the MTA to sell it outside of subway stations. I'm sure causes chaos for many tourists and for BrooklynBob cause BrooklynBob has a hard time looking for a Funpass when I have visitors from out of town to get one for.
Do away with the wrappers. It causes too much litter from stupid people who don't know what a garbage can is.
And if you're handicapped----then have someone purchase a MetroCard for you at a subway station if the MTA is smart enough to do away with the outside Metrocard vending.
PS----how do those newsstand people make their $$$ from selling MetroCards? Doesn't the MTA lose $$$$ by doing this?
I don't think they'd look at it as a loss. The stores pay a discount rate for the cards, and the MTA pockets the cas immediately. It's already earning intrest, in that case, until it is spent ('the float') The store owner sells it at face value, and makes himself a small profit.
It makes the card more convienient for the users, who would otherwise need to stand on long lines to buy a card at a booth; it draws customers into the store, where they may get to the counter, buy their card, and see a Slim Jim. "OOOOooo, SLIM JIM and buy one. Thus, the store owner has made his intended sale, and the all-important 'impulse buy'
-Hank
The wrappers are definitely needed when Metrocards are sold away from subway stations. Otherwise there would be no way to tell if the card really had the value on it that it was supposed to. They could make the wrappers easier to open, though.
For cards sold in subway stations, there is a reader at the booth to verify the balance. However, since all the cards look alike, the clerk could easily get confused if the pre-encoded cards weren't identified by wrappers. So I guess the wrappers are needed even there.
I finally bought a "fun pass" the other day, at a check-cashing store. The store was near a bus stop and had a "Fun Pass Sold Here" sign in the window. There are a lot of these stores around these days, many near subway stations.
As has been talked around here, many folks can't get to a subway station for physical or travel habits, so Newstands and on-line means are important to them (e.g. CitySearch). Express bus customers for many years have valued their ability to call up the "private" operator and order tickets (now $30 or $120 MCs ... plug plug).
I too think wrappers are important as they provide peace of mind for the customer and prevent the "seller" from getting sticky fingers. The harder you make it for staff to steal the more less likely they will.
The value MetroCards that I gave my Farebox repair staff say "For Test Only - No Free Access". They're also a "white" color. I've said to them that I don't worry about miss-use of the card because if I ever get a call from the police that you got caught trying to use it, I'ld reply "good lock 'em up & throw the key away". Station Agents used to be more liberal about letting me walk up to a booth to re-fill the cards, but now they won't do it even if you're a TA employee (I used to walk up in uniform & hand them a business card, now I buy new cards from the encoding shop ... we have an account their).
Mr t__:^)
Here we go again...
Someone here reported a time back that our famous(or infamous) New Tech Train was out of service in the Bronx. I spotted the train going southbound passing throug Jackson Av on the 2/5, destination unknown. I wonder what the mechanics are going to do this time to this poor thing???
Also, anybody notice anything peculiar yesterday? Mainline R36s were running on the 5 for one trip, I'd guess to cover a gap in service. This is the advantage to having your window next to the el... You can see what's going on. I have seen numerous odd sights over the years.
-Stef
What is the difference between machancial control engines and electronic control engines? Besides
computers how do the machancial controls work? Belts and pulleys?
Steve could fill you in better on this - but, the mechanical ones not only have camshaft driven contactors on them (Hey - how about a pic of these on subtalk? I've only once seen one (MN open house), and I'm sure many people would love to see one too Maybe a cutaway engineering diagram too? :)
They also have a "motor" to drive the camshaft, and the control logic - which could be realys, or a computer, or circuit boards. The "motor" is either an electric, or a pneumatic - air operated. GE's PC, PCM, and maybe others, and lots of Westinghouse stuff uses an air engine. The MCM, SCM, and CCM use electric motors. The motor drives the camshaft either directly, or via a gear reduction - I doubt belts were ever used here.
There is also something called "Unit Switch" control - Instead of a camshaft, the contactors are driven by air. Sometimes (PRR MP-54s), there is an air driven "sequence drum", but others handle all the switch logic by "interlocks" on each contactor. Such control was used in the pre war R-series cars, and on the old LIRR MUs.
Unit Switch, and any air operated camshaft controller, or course, won't go without a supply of air! With Unit Switch, loss of air will cause the contactors to simply drop out - I'm not sure if the camshaft types will get stuck with the power on or not...
[ There is also something called "Unit Switch" control - Instead of a
camshaft, the contactors are driven by air. Sometimes (PRR MP-54s),
there is an air driven "sequence drum", but others handle all the
switch logic by "interlocks" on each contactor. Such control was used
in the pre war R-series cars, and on the old LIRR MUs. ]
The Pre-war R series cars (R1-R9) used PC control, and not unit switch groups.
Unit switch groups were used on BRT gate cars, though. I'm not sure if they all used the same thing, but most of them used AB "turret" groups, where the contactors are oriented in a circle.
The R cars at seashore have Unit Switch on them - I know because they' have Westinghouse equipment - and I believe they weren't doing camshafts at that point in time. It certainly wasn't PC control, since that's a GE thing. Some cars might have had PC on them - I'm pretty certain a numbver of series were split between Westinghouse and GE (as was the GG-1, but not the PRR MUsk, which were all Westinghouse)
Actually, Steve, most of the R1-9 orders were
split between GE and Westinghouse. The latter are type ABF
unit switch control. Branford's R-9 is GE PC-15, but the
two at Seashore are WH. Some ABs and Ds also had similar gear.
There was one small group of IRT cars with WH unit switch, the
rest were all GE Type M or PC-10.
BU cars had either the original Westinghouse notching-head
Sprague-style control, turrets, or 251-I-3 inline unit
switch groups. The latter were used on the 1400s and therefore
on the Qs.
Unit Switch, and any air operated camshaft controller, or course, won't go without a supply of air!
With Unit Switch, loss of air will cause the contactors to simply drop out - I'm not sure if the
camshaft types will get stuck with the power on or not
Loss of air on a PC control would cause the drum to stick in
whatever position it was in, but the line switch would dropaway
and cut off power.
The details are too complex to explain here, but both control systems are explained in depth on Piers Connor's excellent web page.
http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/
CH.
First off, let me commend Bill Palter on the shots his dad took of the el. They were excellent and they really told the story about a once great elevated line.
Next, I want to mention something that I saw, in one of Bill's pictures that I decided to check out. Does anyone know out here that there is a remnant of the 3rd Av El locted on 161 St at 3rd Av? Do you know what it is? The Manhattan Railway's Substation #8 is still here and it has been 26 years since the el was demolished! I have no idea what the building is being used for, if any. The Manhattan Railway name still adorns this once great building. This a building that should receive landmark status if it hasn't already. After all, it is what remains of the el, other than the abandoned trackway at Gun Hill Rd, the lower level.
I wouldn't mind putting a Museum in this building, paying hommage to a once great el. The substation can tell the story of how rapid transit helped to develop the Bronx as well as other parts of NYC.
The el - was it a nuisance or a necessity?
Any thoughts?
-Stef
I think it could have been spared. It certainly could carry more passengers than today's BX-55 bus. IIRC, the MTA had planned to buy all new, lighter subway cars for both this line and the Myrtle Ave el. That certainly would have spruced up that line. If you take a look at the "new" Franklin Ave. Shuttle you can only wonder what the #8 line could be today had some money been sunk into improving and upgrading it.
Unfortunately, the Third Ave. el died during the height of the "We're really gonna build the Second Ave. line this time" period of optimism. If the line could have held out for two more years, the city would have hit its financial crisis when the Second Ave. line died, and the el might have gotten a reprieve.
Stef,
Did you know that when the el in the Bronx was shut down, the part from 161 to Gun Hill rd. was torn down, but the part from 149 to 161 stodd till about 1978? The reason: the TA needed that substation for power for the 2/5 lines! Check it out that why it stood so long, and is the same reason that the "old" Myrtle El is still standing from Bushwick to Lewis, although that substaion at Lewis is no longer used. Don' worry, there are nocurrent plans to tear down that el.(too short a strecth and no one complains)
As an added tidbit, check out the towere that still stands at Jamaica and 165 st. The Jamaica el at that locqtion was torn down over 20 years ago, but the tower still stands!
Mike H
Does any know if the entrance stairways remain for the 138th St Station. They were massive concrete entrances that were probably built when the structure was double-decked. Thos entrances were on the PROW portion of the original suburban line.
Ok... Let's see here. First off, thanks for the info. You're telling me stuff that I haven't heard of before. I have a few thoughts on my mind. I didn't know that the el substation was being used for that purpose, so this leads me to believe that the 2/5 substation at St Ann's Av (at Westchester) was built as a replacement for Substation 8. So what were they doing? They had the powerlines along the sides of the structure? It doesn't even meet the West Farms El structure at any location, not unless the lines went into the ground. Gee, I wonder if the 3rd Rail was still electrified here!?! They still had signals up, right? That's great, the el became a historical landmark (not!) as no trains passed on it. For me, it's an eerie sight seeing an el that doesn't rumble with the noise of Forneys, Qs, Lo-Vs, and others that ran over the years.
As for the Myrtle Av El, I thought the reason for keeping that section of el up was for the purpose of operating the tower from this location. The tower doesn't operate anymore, so why keep the structure up? I like the els, but if nothing's running on it, then why bother to keep it up? It's unnecessary. Speaking of the BMT Eastern Division, I'll be checking into what's left of the Jamaica Av El at 165th St. Did you say the tower is still standing? That's odd.
As a transit advocate, I would have said leave the el, because there wasn't anything wrong with it. Anyone who rides the Bx55 will notice that the buses are packed most of the time which makes me think that the patronage warrants the return of some kind of rapid transit along 3rd Av. I believe, but I can't recall that the el was supposed to be tied into the Second Av Subway, which was one of the city's many plans from back in the 1930s. The structure could have been rebuilt only if the city was willing to spend money on it. At least in part, the Dual Contracts structure could have remained and tied into the subway in the Fordham Road area. After all, the Broadway Bklyn El on Fulton St still stands after so many years, going from steam to bonafide R42s. An 1885 Brooklyn Elevated RR structure still stands, but no one had tolerance for an 1886 Suburban Elevated structure.
Gosh, I wish my mom and dad could have showed me to the 3rd Av El, even if there wasn't anything actually on it (Talk about being a 70's baby!).
-Stef
Stef,
It's true, the Jamaica tower stands; just look up at the southeast corner of 165 and Jamaica; that's it!
Yea, it's true for the Myrtle el. if you can recall; the old substation used to have cables running to the el, which I guess also ran into the Bway el.If all they neede was the tower, they could have left only the structure above the Bway el.
Glad to help, hope someone can help me with info on the Polo Grounds shuttle remnants.
MIke H
I don't know too much about what's left of the Polo Grounds Shuttle, but Joe Brennan has a guide about abandoned or unused subway/el routes as is their stations, and some commuter rail stuff. There's a link to Brennan's page somwhere on this site.
What about the Polo Grounds shuttle? Well the structure which connects into the Lex Av Subway still exists from ironically a SUBSTATION at 162th St and River Av. A set of stairs which leads down from the 155th St Bridge was said to be a part of the 9th Av El. Question: Was the 155th St Bridge apart of what the 9th Av El used to get to the Bronx? The bridge wasn't always open to vehicular traffic was it? The only other thing that I might want to mention is that remains of the 9th Av El supposedly exist between two buildings I believe it's supposed to be a tunnel?
-Stef
The 9 Avenue El used the "Putnam Bridge" to cross the Harlem River. This bridge was built by the New York City and Northern Railroad and opened on May 1,1881 and lasted until january 6,1916. The bridge was then leased to the IRT for 999 years. IRT service lasted from january 6,1918 until june 15,1958.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for that info, Larry. What I was wondering is if that's the same bridge still in existence at the present time being used by vehicular traffic. Brennan's guide to abandoned and disused stations seems to point to a set of stairways, that lead from the 155th St Bridge down to street level, and are said to have been a part of the el. Any thoughts?
-Stef
The city was very pessimistic about the future of the Bronx in the 1970s. There was even talk of "closing off" certain areas and removing the remaining residents so that all services could be shut down. (I believe the official term was "planned shrinkage.") Ridership from the Bronx was dropping, and there was no expectation that it would ever come back.
This is foolish thinking on the part of the city. Because of their mistakes, urbanites like myself had to suffer the indignity of being in an area now classified as a ghetto.
It's hard to imagine that the South Bronx had so much so many years ago, and then went downward. What gives?
One thing's for certain: slowly but surely, the South Bronx is being revitalized.
-Stef
I was living in the Bronx myself during that period; I remember riding the 3rd Avenue el on its last day. The city and state governments were paralyzed when facing urban problems. Even the Federal government, during the Nixon-Ford-Carter years, was in disarray with the aftermath of Vietnam, Watergate, and the oil embargoes. I don't think politics has really recovered from that time.
The MTA itself fell into a defeatist attitude along with the rest of the city government.
What killed the 3rd Avenue el was the elimation of its route in Manhattan. Why couldn't the city understand that before it demolition that route? And, couldn't this route have been spared for a second Avenue subway connection?
I don't think so. The G doesn't go into Manhattan and still runs. The Franklin Ave Shuttle hasn't gone to Manhattain since 1920 and it was recently rebuilt. The only thing that killed the the 3rd Ave. el was a city who didn't care about mass transit.
Wouldn't the Bronx be better off today had the line been completely rebuilt and renovated similar to what was done to the the Franklin Ave. shuttle?
"Wouldn't the Bronx be better off today had the line been completely rebuilt and renovated similar to what was done to the
the Franklin Ave. shuttle?"
Your asking the wrong person, Chris.
Can anyone tell me how the neighborhood being service by the el looked from the time it was built until the time it was demolished? And did it look like a ghost town as it does today?
3rd Ave was basically a commercial street and it declined when el service terminated. Just like Myrtle Ave. in '69 and Jamaica Ave. in '77
I think that was the idea. Connect the 2nd Av Subway to the outer portion of the 3rd Av El and voila, you have another hostile takeover of a once glorious el route. Recall that the Fulton St El's outer end was tied into the IND subway at 80th Street in Queens. What do I mean by hostile? The IND took control of former BMT routes, built under them in some cases, and knocked down the IRT Manhattan Elevated System (6th Av El is a perfect example). Competition was the key... Put the BMT and IRT out the door and let the IND reap the benefits.
But anyway, as I was saying, if the 3rd Av El had been tied into the Second Av Subway, that means the el would have been converted to IND specs as that had been the plan for the subway. Yeah, Gun Hill would have been IND on the lower level, IRT on the upper. Wouldn't that have been strange? Then again, you have to wonder if the other IRT lines such as Jerome Av and Pelham Lines would have been converted to IND specs. Just a thought!
-Stef
I doubt the 3rd Ave el. was strong enough to handle 600 ft subway trains. In fact, it had problems with ordinary R12 cars, as speed limits were imposed on particularly weakly supported areas, I think. Any rebuild to meet these standards would have been rendered as a waste of money, and a subway would have been proposed to replace it.
Anything's possible - remember that Bway Bklyn El had to be rebuilt to accomodate the AB Standards which were large for their time. Rebuilding of the 3rd Av El didn't have to be out of the question. The portion above Fordham Rd certainly could have been retained (Dual Contracts Portion).
-Stef
Did the third avenue el come first (1,2,3,4,5,6,B,C,D)? If so, did it use IRT standard cars or IND/BMT standard cars? If IND/BMT standard cars were used, why the switch?
Thank you for your responses.
This Rail Historian has the following facts. The 3rd Avenue EL used IRT cars like, gate car, the Composites, MUDC's, Lo-V's, Worlds Fair Steinways, R12 and some others. It was opened in Suburban line of the 3rd Avenue EL in Manhatten I believe in 1886. Its original terminal was Bronx Park. The line closed on April 28, 1973 and yours truly roe the line on the last day and Lo-V's the following day on a ERA sponsored fan trip.
So, they was a third Avenue el before a 2, 4, 5, and 6?
Every line in the Bronx currently in function was opened in the 20th Century. The Third Avenue El was not.
Part of it was. I think the part below Tremont Ave was 19th century costruction. However, the part that was above Bedford Park Blvd was built at the same time as the White Plains Rd. line.
The part above what was the Fordham Road/190th Street station was built in the late 1910s and opened in 1920. I rode that line twice and did notice the differences in the station architecture, i.e. the differences between, say, Claremont Parkway and 210th Street-Williamsbridge. The 3rd Avenue Contract III stations had the same platform sheds and lights found on the Jamaica and Liberty Avenue Els.
Wayne
What did El stations look like before their MTA windscreen uglification? When will the TA have a el station renaissance like they did with the subway?
The IRT el stations built in the 1917-1920 period had windscreens made of wooden panels with windows in the top half. I think these had six panes of glass per panel. I'm fairly sure these windows couldn't be opened. During the mid-1960s the original walls were replaced with the present metal windscreens.
The older 3rd Avenue stations (below Fordham Road) generally didn't have windscreens. The portion of the stations beneath the canopies had four or five foot fences but were otherwise left open. The TA (and later the MTA) didn't make the kinds of renovations made to newer el stations. During the period from 1955 to 1973 the line was generally neglected.
You are a very well informed rail historian. Mind telling me the name of the signal maintainer who cut the signal bonds after the last train passed the Clairemont Station. Bet you don't know the engine number of the work train involved in the rail scrap removal. Please tell me the current owner of the pot belly stove that was at Bedford Park. I want to be a well informed rail historian such as yourself. By the way one of the cars in the last R-12 train also worked the last train of the Bowling Green Shuttle. What was it Mr Rail Historian?
Actually, Histerical, you've inadvertently (?) brought up a good point: when is trivia too obscure to be honest?
I know some people who have very obscure but accurate details that probably noone could answer. For example, I know Arthur Lonto used to keep a notebook detailing every ride he ever took, even just to go into the City for a shopping trip. He noted his route, car numbers, any other pertinent details.
So he could well ask "was the northbound D train on time at 34th-6th on November 12, 1954. If it was not. how late or early was it, and what was the number of the lead car?"
I have a number of pieces of information I would be surprised if more than one or two other people know, such as: "What first event occured on the Brighton Beach Line on August 26, 1878."
An educated guess would be that the Brighton was extended from Willink (Prospect Park) to Bedford Station (Atlantic Avenue).
But it would be wrong.
I could use the technique often used on "Jeopardy" of giving a big hint by asking "What unfortunate first event occured ..."
On that date, the Brighton suffered its first fatality.
My point is that if you have an interesting fact, it's not really fair to ask it as a question unless a fairly knowledgeable person could at least have a shot at guessing it.
Just my thought...
Paul: Since the Brighton Line openned for service on July 2,1878 and was extended to Bedford Station on August 19 of that year I would venture to say it had something to do with hauling the Brighton Beach Hotel about 200 yards inland. (The sea came into the lobby of the hotel at high tide.)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry: If you mean what was the cause of the fatality, it was carelessness. The circumstances of the accident were probably as old as railroading and still happens today.
The unfortunate soul crossed the two-track right-of-way immediately after the passage of a train. He was struck and killed by a train heading in the opposite direction. His name was Michael Shaughnessey, a section hand (employee).
The Hotel Brighton was hauled back ten years later, in 1888, after the shoreline was cut back by the Blizzard of '88.
Yeah, those were IRT type cars (actually they were smaller as the IRT cars were 51' long while Manhattan El cars were anywhere from 44' to 48'. The el was up and running years before the subway. To be exact, 1878 was the opening of the el from South Ferry to the old Grand Central Depot.
-Stef
Stef,
Did you know that when the el in the Bronx was shut down, the part from 161 to Gun Hill rd. was torn down, but the part from 149 to 161 stood till about 1978? The reason: the TA needed that substation for power for the 2/5 lines! Check it out, that's why it stood so long, and is the same reason that the "old" Myrtle El is still standing from Bushwick to Lewis, although that substaion at Lewis is no longer used. Don' worry, there are no current plans to tear down that el.(too short a stretch, and no one complains)
As an added tidbit, check out the tower that still stands at Jamaica and 165 st. The Jamaica el at that location was torn down over 20 years ago, but the tower still stands!
Mike H
Speaking of 3rd Ave, I remember watching the 1981 movie "Fort Apache-The Bronx" a few years back on TV. Anyway there was a scene in the first part of the movie when Paul Newman and Ken Wahl were chasing a purse snatcher down 3rd Avenue. In the background, I noticed in that scene that although the El had been gone for almost 5-6 years, the city still hadn't gotten around to replacing the low-clearance streetlamps left over from when the el was still in place overhead. At about 10-15' in height they looked awfully strange when situated next to regular height ( approx. 20-25') traffic signal masts at an intersection.
The same thing happened on Jamaica Ave after the 121-Queens Blvd leg of the Jamaica El was dismantled in the late 80s. Pretty strange.
I will like to see a new elevated structure on 3rd Avenue of 21 century standards. However, one question: How much community opposition is expected compare to favoriting this new line. As you are not aware of, third avenue pretty much consist of warehouses.
This new el will terminate at Fordam Road/Grand Concourse or 138th Street 3rd Avenue (duplicating the older route - except connecting the B/D at Concourse). Connections with the B/D at Grand Concourse, 2/5 at 149th Street/3rd Avenue and 6 at 138th Street/3rd Avenue will be accomplished.
At a later date, I propose the D extended to White Plains Road (connecting 2/5 lines), and the building of the 2nd Avenue subway which the 3rd Avenue el will be connected to.
Moreover, use of the old "NY/Boston Railroad/Amtrak rail tracks to Co-op City and Dyre Avenue; replacing the 5. Please walk over the triborough bridge to see the layout.
6 to Co-op City is also proposed in my plans.
I would rather have a Third Avenue Subway there, subways are much better than els.
Even 21 century El like the ones in Washington DC (Metro).
Yes, even those. There not 21st century els. NOTHING is 21st century, at least not for another 17 months.
I don't see why they couldn't bring it back. I think the community was expecting a replacement subway, that never came so the passengers are flocking to the BX55 articulated buses.
What did you have in mind for an elevated stucture? The box girder type (as Wayne Mr. Slant R40 describes it) seems to be the traditional way of putting up els. They're cheaper than building the subways. Should it matter if the TA builds an el or a subway? What's better? Building els in the outer boroughs are ok, but the city won't let you build one in Manhattan.
You said 3rd Av consisted of warehouses... During what time was that? I've been on 3rd Av numerous times and see large amounts of housing.
-Stef
A concrete viaduct down the middle of 3rd Ave might be possible, but NIMBY would kill it, as it will all other above-ground rail projects.
Chris,
"A concrete viaduct down the middle of 3rd Ave might be possible, but NIMBY would kill it, as it will all other
above-ground rail projects."
3rd Avenue is not as residential as Grand Concourse and Jerome Avenue. It is still possible to build a new el line. However, not until they start building the 2nd Avenue Subway first (which it would connect to it). Remember, elimation of the Manhattan route was responsible for it demise.
There will never be a political situation friendly to a new el construction, as the Port Authority's Air Train problems with NIMBY'ism has proven.
And it wasn't the elimination of service to Manhattan that killed the 3rd Ave. el in The Bronx. It survived for 18 years after that. It was the MTA's desire to cut costs and the community's pressure to remove the "unsuightly" el and replace it with a subway.
"The box girder type (as Wayne Mr. Slant R40 describes it) seems to
be the traditional way of putting up els."
Nineteen Century Structures? NO! They should replace all of those box girder type structures (as you describe it) with new elevated technology (similar to Washington D.C. Metro).
"Should it matter if the TA builds an el
or a subway? What's better?"
Yes it should, Stef. Elevator lines are great and inexpensive and suggest the MTA to build one on 3rd Avenue. It should connect the Metro North and D and Fordham Road.
In my 2Av plans, I do have a 3Av ELEVATED line connecting to the 2 Av line via the J and Z lines..................
3TM
J, M, Z? They can't run BMT trains in the Bronx. Only the IND and IRT are allow in the Bronx.
Uh, what are you talking about? Let's be careful how we phrase things so as not to be spreading any misinformation here.
The BMT never built any lines to the Bronx that's true but that has nothing to do with possible future routes that might get built/created.
Look at the "D" train, that's certainly part BMT. Who knows maybe someday (not likely but for example) there will be a Concourse/Central Park West/6th Ave/Chrystie St./Broadway El route.
First of all, It is just a fantasy line that I MADE UP so this is not true. Second of all, what type of law is there that says that BMT cannot enter the Bronx? There might not be no BMT lines in the Bronx but anything is possible. BMT means Brooklyn-Manhattan Division but the J,M,N,R, and Z goes to Queens right???????
3TM
What kind of law is there that says that the BMT means anything at all? In addition, the Q is BMT and goes to Queens and the B, D and F run over BMT trackage and then go to the Bronx or Queens (BRONX)
Well that is my point. BMT does not mean anything anymore. It is now part of the B division. BTW, that is what BMT stand for....... THERE IS NO LAW STATING THAT. IT IS JUST AN ABBREVIATION..............
3TM
Except for the charter of the Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation, which has no binding anymore as that corporation was dissolved in 1942.
Then, what's with the BMT signs?
These were the names of the old divisions of the pre TA.
IRT: Interborough Rapid Transit
BMT: Brooklyn-Manhattan Transportation(?)
IND: Independent Lines(?)
3TM
IRT: Interborough Rapid Transit Company
BMT: Brooklyn-Manhattan Transit Corporation
IND: Independent City-owned Rapid Transit Railroad (This is what I heard, and it rhymes too!)
... and they're still used, even by NYC Transit, which tried to eradicate these terms from memory.
At the front or rear of every underground subway platform is a red sign indicating to emergency personnel where you are, what the track numbers are, the direction of train travel, where the next emergency exits are and what DIVISION of the transit system you're in. The divisions are listed as IRT, BMT and IND.
--Mark
Here are my ideas for Second Avenue Subway Stations, each design would come from a unique period in Station Design History, with some embellishment.
South Street - Ferry Terminal
This station boasts an extra wide island platform, with provisions for southward extension to Staten Island. It's name is designed to prevent confusion with the BMT and IRT stations. The station is designed with a rib vault like a Gothic cathedral, hanging from the points are chandeliers that don't attempt to emulate their rich crystal cousins, but are designed to take in the "feel" of the subway. The station should borrow design elements from City Hall, while not attempting to make copies. City Hall should never be copied! Due to the great expense of this station's amenities, including the replica of Beach's fountain (see FAQ), anyone attempting to vandalize or deface this station in anyway will be sentenced to life. Those who carry through with the defacing will be sentenced to death.
Wall-Fulton Streets
Designed to look like an IND Station, it brings the IND to two streets that were never namesakes to the IND. Because the line will lack express tracks (too expensive, not much time savings, too many inconviencied, express already on Lex, etc.) the color will be that of the line on the map.
Worth Street - Chatham Square
The name is deliberately designed to pay to homage to a fallen post on the first IRT. The "logo" of the station will be a large junction of elevated trains running cars that look like Low-Vs. It will suggest to the passenger that the station is older, for when there were many els there, adding to the station's "feel."
Grand Street
Although it may seem cheap, the station's premise would merely involve moving the current walls back, unmodifying them, and placing the Second Avenue Tracks there.
Houston Street
BMT Station design, BMT needs a Houston Street Station.
14 Street
Bare black walls, it's obscene, but it's a part of some subway station's identity. It pays homage to the street's old reconstruction project.
23 Street
IRT 1918 design, less ornate than it's predecessors, but we can make up for it with nice tile.
34 Street
(I'm running out of subway ideas)
The station is built to look like an automotive tunnel, like it's neighbor. It will have a long walkway to Toity Toid and Toid.
42 Street - United Nations
The station has, mounted on it's walls, ironwork meant to replicate the els. Covering over part of the platform blocking the view of the high ceiling, which changes from night to day, is a canopy, and the walls are painted, to amalgamate some of the best views ever experienced from an el.
Queensborough Bridge
This station, because of it's proximity to the Lexington Avenue staion, it will have a modern design, like Lexington.
72 Street
There is no platform at 72 street, just build four tracks and park trains on the outside for boarding. Seriously, the station is supposed to look the Transit Museum, on steroids.
86 Street
A very civic station, fit for a mayor, like one would ever ride a subway, but anyway.
96 Street
Built with Bricks, this station is supposed to look like 49th Street, we have to include them all, don't we?
116 Street
Maybe it would be more fitting elsewhere, but we have to dispose of our trash somehow. This station would be designed like the BMT of the 70s, hopefully it will at that time be the last one. It will be covered with Grafitti contributed by those who didn't want to risk death at South Street, and the homeless would live here.
115 Street
I feel bad with the people who have to be stuck with the station above, so they get a 115th Station as grand as all the others until 116 can be renovated and it's shell with the BMT tile will be used to build a Fresh Kills station.
125 Street
Let's have a contest for this one!
If you have any comments, or an idea for where to put the design of the 116 station, designed to ridicule the people who designed the 70s BMT tile and Penn Station (hey! kill two birds with one stone!) as the fools they really are and cause them to spin around painfully in their graves while their bodies burn in hell for all eternity. Of course, I don't think the architect who designed Penn Septic Tank is dead yet, he's only 40 :)
VERY SORRY for all the horrid imagery that possibly marred this post, David Pirmann is welcome to remove that if necessary.
/* If you have any comments, or an idea for where to put the design of the 116 station, designed to ridicule the people who
designed the 70s BMT tile and Penn Station (hey! kill two birds with one stone!) as the fools they really are and cause them
to spin around painfully in their graves while their bodies burn in hell for all eternity. Of course, I don't think the architect
who designed Penn Septic Tank is dead yet, he's only 40 :) */
Personally - I'd like to see Penn Station leveled, and started from scratch. I mean, completely leveled. The current attempt to create a "modern" old penn station from the post office is a joke. What I'd do:
1) Totally level MSG, penn, etc. Yes, I know, doing this without screwing up LIRR, NJT, or Amtrak would be a feat in itself!
2) Even more of a feat - realign the platforms in there. Track 17 in particular isn't a very good one - Make all the platforms as straight and long as possible.
3) Build a new station on top of this. I'd love to see an Art Deco design (WPA murals and all - I LOVE that stuff:), with HIGH ceilings, big, open spaces, BRIGHT lighting, and all on one level.
4) The platform level would have a real ceiling, to cover all those ugly conduits and ducts. Lighting would, again, be ample. Venting would be ample too, to cool of the platform level a bit (not AC though)
5) On top of the new station, would be a new MSG, styled to go with the station.
6) There would be plenty of staircases, and elecators to each platform. By each one would be a totally electonic, possibly color, poster sized display that would list the train, time it leaves, stops, etc. When not in use, it could show advertising, service notices, etc.
7) Departure monitors, etc, would be High Definition projection displays, with widescreen, running ads, service notices, "did you know..." tidbits, etc.
8) The look would be consistant between the LIRR and NJT / Amtrak sections.
9) And of course, the prerequisite shops/stores, including the billion Hudson News stands there now...
As part of the Westside plans, the mayor included a new MSG next to the stadium. Right there, I wondered why noone got the idea of rebuilding Penn Station where it originally was.
That's what I want, a new MSG over the rail yards and a replica of the old Penn Station, modified slightly to suit modern needs. In thew front of the terminal, a sculpture would be erected that shows the people involved with demolishing the original, crawling on an ash heap while an army of justice stands above, with a gun, ready to give them the ultimate reward of the ultimate act of vandalism.
You know, I'm not a Knicks or Rangers fan anymore because of where they play. Not having anything to do with HOW they play.
I was thinking, why couldn't the Second Avenue line be built as light rail. I don't know if it would be any cheaper than heavy rail subway, but I'm thinking that at large stations, such as Wall St and 42nd Street areas(W/ Grand Central) you could have multiple island platforms(like on Bosotn's Green Line at Park St. or Government Center).
Then in the Bronx and Brooklyn, it can run on ROW or light rail el/subway to various places. I'd think a line to Flatlands and Coney Island using the light rail in Brooklyn. It may be easier with light rail.
What do you think?
[I was thinking, why couldn't the Second Avenue line be built as light rail. I don't know if it would be any cheaper than heavy rail subway, but I'm thinking that at large stations, such as Wall St and 42nd Street areas(W/ Grand Central) you could have multiple island platforms(like on Bosotn's Green Line at Park St. or Government Center).]
Without full grade separation, a light rail line would be stuck at intersections just like motor vehicles and would offer little if any time advantage over buses. I believe that the light rail line in Baltimore suffers from this drawback. Elevating a Second Avenue light rail line would solve the intersection problem - but the costs would be far higher, and you can just imagine how the big cheeses on the Upper East Side would react to seeing an elevated line running outside their co-ops.
[ Elevating a Second Avenue light
rail line would solve the intersection problem - but the costs would
be far higher, and you can just imagine how the big cheeses on the
Upper East Side would react to seeing an elevated line running outside
their co-ops. ]
Hmm, this sounds familiar.. An elevated rapid transit line along 2nd avenue. Why didn't they think of that, umm, about 100 years ago?
You are right. If they could not afford to replace the "L"s with subways they should not have been removed. Was there an l on 2nd? I have seen people discuss the 3rd ave l
Light rail with dedicated lanes workes better than buses but if you cannot clear cross street traffic from the intersection between singal cycles then it will not work well
Where light rail works best is in segregated right of way. Median running such as Torornto Harbor Front and New Orleans St. Charles lines work ok if cross traffic is not great, and signals can handle the conflicts. The speed is far better than bus but no where near rappid transit
There were els on 2nd, 3rd, 6th and 9th Avenues. The 6th and 8th Avenue IND lines were built to do away with the els on 6th and 9th. The other two would've been knocked out by the 2nd Avenue subway.
Wasn't there an elevate line along second avenue that traveled to the Bronx? Why did they take it down? Did it reduce over crowding on the Lexington Avenue Subway?
[Wasn't there an elevate line along second avenue that traveled to the Bronx? Why did they take it down? Did it reduce over crowding on the Lexington Avenue Subway?]
The El was removed just before World War Two, under the expectation that the Second Avenue subway would be coming along soon. Its removal also was intended as a way to make Second Avenue more esthetically pleasing. These reasons were behind the removal of the Third Avenue El in the early 1950s.
Second and Third Avenues indeed are much nicer than they'd be if an El were clattering overhead. Unfortunately, the other half of the justification for removal - construction of the Second Avenue subway - never came to pass. You'll see the results any rush hour on the Lexington Avenue line.
IF the brakes on trains are operated by air, if there is a air leak in
the brake pipe cause the train to loose its brakes totally?
Why shouldn't the brakes use air to hold back the brakes?
Also can anyone explain regenative braking? What is a resistor grill?
Regenerative braking uses the electric motors as generators in the braking cycle. They resistance caused by the generator slows the train and adds power to grid In dymamic braking the same thing happens except the power genrated is run to the resistors and creates heat.
What is a resistor grill
When power is applied to the motors you cannot go from full off to full on. Resisters are added to the motor circuit to soft start them if you will. As speed increases more resistors are removed from the circuit until full power is flowing to the motors.
The resisters build heat and need to be cooled They are arranged in rows and with their cooling fins and look like a radiator, kind of. In dynamic braking the resistors are used to control acceleration and deceleration of the car.
Also can anyone explain regenative braking?
Currently all NYCT trains use dynamic braking whereby the traction motors are converted into generators. The resistance on the motors slows the train while the electricity generated is convertewd to heat in resistor banks under the train. Regenerative braking works on the same principle but the generated electricity is put back into the 3rd rail and used by other trains.
What is a resistor grill?
Resistor GRIDS are banks of resistors mounted under the car. They are divided into two groups, propulsion and braking. During accelleration all propulsion grids are in series with the traction motors. As the train picks up speed, resistance is taken out in steps until it is all out of the circuit. In braking, the other grids are switched in or out depending on the amount of braking requested.
As for you first question, NYCT trains do not use just one air for the brake system. Main reservoir air is used for filling the braks cylinders. Straight air is used for controlling the brake cylinder air.Brake pipe is used for charging the entire system. As long as the Brake pipe air is within the normal operating range (90-110 PSI on all but R-44) the Brake Cylinder air will be proportional to the straight air. If Straight air is max, (80 PSI) then Brake Cylinder pressure will be at max. If Straight air is at 0, then brake cylinder air will be at zero too. If brake pipe goes to zero (BIE) then the straight air will no longer control the brake cylinder air which will go to max.
[ Resistor GRIDS are banks of resistors mounted under the car. They are
divided into two groups, propulsion and braking. During accelleration
]
Are there two distinct sets of grids on all SMEE cars? Or did any of them ever use some grids for both traction control and dynamic resistance?
On every form of SMEE controls I can think of (viz. PCM, MCM,
SCM, CAM, ECAM) there are physically separate resistors and
contactors/cam switches for motoring and braking. Graphics
don't work too well in Subtalk, so this is hard to explain.
The main circuit is a figure-8. Starting from the line switch,
you have one bank of accelerating resistance, with the contactors
to bypass it, the #1 and #3 motors in permanent series (SMEE
cars use 300 volt motors), a branch which is isolated until
the braking contactor closes, in that branch the dynamic braking
resistance with its bypass contactors, then on the bottom the
other set of motors and accelerating resistance, all forming an "8"
In principle, you could use the same grids for motoring and
braking, but you'd need a lot of contactors to switch the circuit
around to create the figure-8 loop necessary to cause dynamic
braking. One example of a design where (at least some of) the
resistance is used for both purposes is the PCC controls (both
GE and WH).
Is there any advantage to dynamic braking over regenerative braking? It seems to me that regerative would save a large part of the cost, monetary and otherwise, of powering the system. Why use dynamic instead?
Because you can't do regen with obsolete (but functional)
rheostatic control of DC motors. You need some sort of
solid state power electronics. The new cars with A/C traction
will regen.
[IF the brakes on trains are operated by air, if there is a air leak in the brake pipe cause the train to loose its brakes totally?
Why shouldn't the brakes use air to hold back the brakes?]
That is exactly what they do. While I couldn't quite follow Steve's detailed description about pressures in different pipes following each other, I do understand the basic principle that the air pressure keeps the brakes FROM being applied, so that if pressure is lost, the brakes are applied automatically (a "fail-safe" situation). That is why, when a train goes into an emergency stop, or when it comes to the end of its run, the air is "dumped" and the system must be "recharged" with air in order for the brakes to be released and the train to move again.
Right guys? I am surprised none of the other answers addressed themselves to this basic question that was asked.
[ I do understand the basic principle that the air pressure keeps
the brakes FROM being applied, so that if pressure is lost, the brakes
are applied automatically (a "fail-safe" situation). That is why, when
a train goes into an emergency stop, or when it comes to the end of
its run, the air is "dumped" and the system must be "recharged" with
air in order for the brakes to be released and the train to move
again.]
The basic principle you describe does take effect on subway cars, for emergency braking only, though. The "brake pipe" on subway cars is always at full pressure. Emergency vents this to the atmosphere (and there are several systems to make sure that once this starts, it happens fast). That's what "dump" means, dumping the brake pipe.
At first, one might think, though, that the brakes work with springs or something, and are held off by air. That's not the case, though. Basically, there is a reservoir of air which is maintained by the brake pipe, and the brake pipe keeps this air in the reservoir. When the brake pipe pressure drops, this air is sent to the cylinder.
This basic principle began with the first automatic air brake systems a long time ago. Someone posted this link earlier: http://www.trainweb.org/railwaytechnical/ which has some good explanations of how air brakes work. SMEE (all current) subway cars use a more complicated mechanism for service braking, though. The article on E-P braking though, is close to how the AMUE/AMRE systems on the pre-war cars worked, though.
The new LIRR cars I believe have brakes have air held back by air.
There is a gush of air before the application. Brake on certain buses use air to hold the brakes back. Are the NYCTA and MCI like that? Or do they operate like train brakes?
The LIRR M-1s and M-3s have P-Wire braking. When you've passed Air Brake 101, P-Wire will be covered in the following semester.
Hey - don't the M-2s have Westcode though? I DO know they have braking notches, which is kinda weird...
[ The new LIRR cars I believe have brakes have air held back by air.
There is a gush of air before the application. Brake on certain buses
use air to hold the brakes back. Are the NYCTA and MCI like that? Or
do they operate like train brakes? ]
I think that all the LIRR diesel fleets have standard AAR frieght braking systems. I'm not sure, though. I am sure that it's a reduction system. The new equipment might have an electric brake, and might consequently have partial release, but I'm not sure.
Thanks for the attempt at clarification. I'll take a look at that site and see if I understand it any better.
The next time you are sweltering in a subway station, think dynamic brakes' grids and air conditioners' exhaust. Two reasons why stations today are much hotter than they were in the "good old days."
And that's transit and (sort of) weather together.
[ The next time you are sweltering in a subway station, think dynamic
brakes' grids and air conditioners' exhaust. Two reasons why stations
today are much hotter than they were in the "good old days." ]
Air conditioning certainly _is_ an issue, but theoretically, dynamic braking shouldn't be that much of an issue for the following reason:
Both dynamic braking _and_ tread brakes stop a train by turning the momentum of the train into heat.
If that's the case, then the only difference is where that heat goes. It all is going to be down there somewhere, but the two systems might vary in how much is dumped in stations, as opposed to the tunnels, etc.
My local LIRR branch, the Port Washington, bears traces of freight runs on the line in the past.
There is an abandoned freight house at Bayside, recently spared from demolition, and there may be another at Broadway: a small house on the eastbound track has a locked door that used to open on Station Road.
Anyone know the last time freight was regularly carried on this line, when the freight houses were last used, and what happened to the freight when it reached Port Washington (or was Bayside the freight terminus?)
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
I live in Bayside myself. Did they ever figure out what they are going to do with that house, so that the local businesses don't lobby again to destroy it.
From my days as an Engineer at NY&A Rwy I had asked the same question. One of my instructors was a 32 year Long Island Rail Road veteran. He told me he could not remember there being freight on the Pt Wash in his time. so figure it's been gone since the mid 60's.
Can anyone tell me where they offer a two year degree within NYS for transportation?
Back in the '60s a group of us Pan Am'ers got the ear of the Evening Dean at Queensboro Community College. He set up class rooms in Pan Am's Cargo Bldg. for us at night. A few years later we got Bernard Baruch (sp ?) to offer 4 year classes. Then the city had a financial problem in the '70s. I graduated in '76.
Why did Queensboro do this ... they added a "Transportation" speciality to their catalog. Give them a call it may still be their.
Mr t__:^)
I was browsing through the website and I came upon the section that describes the Coney Island yard.
It states that it can overhaul almost all the subway cars in the fleet including the Staten Island Rapid Transit.
This made me wonder - does this mean that a tunnel does exist that links Brooklyn with Staten Island? How else would the cars be taken from one place to another, unless car floats are used.
If such a tunnel does exist, why couldn't it be expanded to provide subway service to that borough? I understand that Robert Moses years ago had a hand in not letting that happen, but what about the present day?
[It states that it (Coney Island Yard) can overhaul almost all the subway cars in the fleet including the Staten Island Rapid Transit.
This made me wonder - does this mean that a tunnel does exist that links Brooklyn with Staten Island? How else would the cars be taken from one place to another, unless car floats are used.]
No, there's no such tunnel. Plans for one have been bandied about for decades, and there was even some exploratory digging many years ago, but nothing was built and probably never will be built.
Almost all SIRT car maintenance can be handled at the Clifton Shops. On the very rare occasion that a car needs work at Coney Island, it's transported by flatbed truck (probably a costly undertaking).
Ah, they complain about everything:)
According to a book I read on the history of the subways the 4rth Av line in Bklyn was originally meant to go through a tunnel to Staten Island and thats why it went as far as it did.
The Coney Island Shops -- if I recall the what the tour guide had said correctly -- is FRA approved, which means they are one of the few rapid transit rail facilities that has capabilites to handle overhaul work on standard American railroad equipment. This means that in rare capacity they can do work on flat cars, hoppers, box cars, etc., should some local freight lines (say NYCH or NY&A) have some such emergency that would require the NYCT to come to their rescue.
How large is CI yard(in acres?).
In May local SubTalkers Doug, Sid of NJ, & I made that tour. Also we met Subtalkers from London & Philly. One of the hand-outs says:
75 acres, 25 of it under roofs ... opened 1926, incl. 3 yards with a capacity to hold 1,800 cars.
Mr t__:^)
Technically, the Wheel and Axle shop is AAR certified. I don't know if the pneumatic shop is similarly certified.
Is it me, or have subway cars gotten smaller?
When I think of the difference in space between the Almond Joys and the M-4's, I see that the M-4's have considerably less headroom and seating?.
The M-4's are equipped with A/C and wheelchair areas unlike the Almond Joys, but wold those(especially the A/C) really decrease the amount of room inside the car that much?
Today, when people aren't getting smaller and personal space is such an issue, do the people who build railcars consider this?
What's the difference between an "A" car, like and R-62a or R-68a and a regular R-62/68?
Different manufacturers?
Yes, and usually some mechanical equipment differences (GE versus Westinghouse electricals, for instance)
-Hank
When you see an "A" like that it usually means an add-on to an existing contract which for some accounting reason is not designated as a separate R number. They may or may not have the same components or builder. The R-32A's(3350-3649) and the R-32's(3650-3949) were both built by Budd and were identical except that the last 150 R-32's (3800-3949) had baffle type fans and back lighted advertisements.
The R-7A's built by Pullman-Standard and ACF were identical to the R-7's built by the same two companies.
On the other hand the R-62's were built by Kawasaki while the R-62A's were built by Bombardier and are virtually identical except for some roll sign differences.
Larry,RedbirdR33
One notable variation on this theme was the R40/R40A/R40M contracts: The R40A denoted the slants with A/C, R40 did not have A/C and R40M had the R42 ends. I'm not sure if they used these designations in the official contract language, however they seem to have become widely used to designate these cars.
Wayne
What's a "baffle" fan and what were those rollsign differences?
Jaman: "Baffle type fan"is my own designation. The original fans blew the air directly down onto you. The last 150 R-32's had a somewhat modified version of this that directed the air up and around.
The roll sign differences between the R-62 and R-62'a were minor,one had a reading in a single line ie Woodlawn-Jerome Av while the other had a two line version Woodlawn
Jerome Av
For the life of me I can't remember which was which. I was on the IRT last week but I usally ride the Redbirds and avoid the Silver Bullets.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The correct term for that type of fan diffuser is: Peripheral Discharge Air Diffuser. These were found on the above-mentioned R32s PLUS ALL of the R38s and all of the Non-A/C Slant R40s. These fans blew air out through little holes at the edges of the fan housing rather than through the fins (known as "Annular Concentric Vanes") of the standard Axiflo fans. As a result, they sucked in a large amount of steel dust, soot and grime, and deposited this on the car ceiling and inside the light fixtures, dimming them considerably.
Westinghouse was the manufacturer of these fans.
"This Information courtesy of Passenger Car Data 1947-1968"
Wayne
So thats why the ceiling was so dirty on those cars.The back lighted advertisements also were not as bright as the regular lamp arrangement.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I remember the Slant R40s in their pre-GOH days on the "F", "E" and even on the "A". It was a world of difference between the interior lighting on the Non-A/C and A/C R40s. The Non-A/C R40s had a major problem with dirt/grime/munge around the fans. The A/C ones, with their neat little vents down the car center, never had this problem.
As a result, the interior lighting functioned better and the car was brighter.
For some odd reason, a LOT of the non-A/C R40s had cars where lights were half out - out on one whole side, or dark on one end on one side, or even every other fixture out one one side. The A/C R40s didn't have this little glitch.
Wayne
I heard some report this morning that the one-time subway gunman has lost his pet(?!) squirrel and his put out a $1,000 reward for it's return.
Seems the animal jumped off his shoulder and hasn't been seen since.
Maybe someone should direct Bernie to search every city park where they flourish like our cherished pigeons.
Doug aka BMTman
Opps! Sorry about the typo in the heading!
Doug aka BMTman
Hey, at least squirrels don't crap on your car (or my good suit!!!!!)
-Hank
The Rail Historian believes that Squirrels do produce waste products that you call "crap". Bernie did no go to the bathroom on a subway car. Bernie should become a rail fan.
[ Hey, at least squirrels don't crap on your car (or my good suit!!!!!) ]
I don't know about doug's car or your suit, but squirrels must crap somewhere.. It probably just isn't as adhesive or immediately visible as aviary waste..
The obligatory on-topic question: Which is more caustic to car rooves, and does it matter if it's a steel car roof, or stretched canvas?
Aviary droppings are worse because they contain uric acid. Squirrels do not produce uric acid, unless they have gout. They produce urea, and discharge it in a liquid, separately like YOU (and me).
Ok, ok, ok...the joke is over. When did this become the Biology message board, anyway?
Hey, a question was asked, I answered it.
Maybe not on my car or on your suit, but on my pillow. Seriously. Three times in two days. Squirrels are truly evil.
Uhm, sleep indoors, or zip up the tent.
-Hank :)
(If I had a laptop.....)
The squirrel had the good sense to get outta there when the getting was good.
Gee...and to think I had always thought he had lost it a long,long time ago...
To be totally honest, unless it's because of years of
strain and torsion, I've never fully understood the
problem with the Manhattan
Bridge. It seems to do nothing but aggrivate riders,
consume lots of money and take up untold posts on this
board.
Why was the bridge considered the best way between those
areas of Brooklyn and Manhattan instead of a tunnel?
I'm sure the engineers, and whoever was representing NYC
transit interests at the time would have forsaw that at
some point in the future, major work would have to be done
because of years of strain on the bridge.
Though the only real problems it has transitwise is the
elimination of various express services, it seems to be a
real hassle for a lot of people from transportation
officials to people who don't even use the bridge (I'm
sure they'd rather see their taxes go to something more
dire). It also seems to be taking a lot more time than it
should.
While I don't propose doing away with the transit
structure in lieu of a tunnel(like I could if I wanted to)
does anyone agree that's it's almost more trouble than
it's worth?
An East River crossing, in addition to the Montague St. tunnel, is a "must" for the southern Brooklyn BMT/IND trains. The B, D, and Q trains carry enough passengers between Brooklyn and Manhattan so that it's an extreme disappointment to see that the MTA isn't willing to "bite the bullet" and work to build a tunnel replacement for the bridge tracks they use. And, of course, the N already is diverted from the bridge. Too bad politics plays such an important role. Can anyone justify, on an actual need basis, spending tens of millions of dollars on the Franklin Ave. renovation, which few people use, while this pressing bridge alternative need by many, many more riders is ignored?
Larry Littlefield has commented extensively on the need to realistically address the bridge problem. Too bad the politicians seem to be so involved with the access to Manhattan from Nassau and places further east.
Mike Rothenberg
transit fans have a new site to check out
http://hometown.aol.com/gyalzsuga/myhomepage/index.html
I've checked a couple of times and get the message "Document contains no data".
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Hopefully this will work.click
here
It works, thanks for the link. Mr t__:^)
It seems that the brakes on most of the cars on the #2 line seem to be noisier than before. I also noticed that some of the #3 cars also had some brake noise problems. Does this mean there is a lack of maintenance on the wheels and brakes lately?
i was riding a brooklyn bound r train today and every time the train stopped the brakes squealed very loudly usually quiter on those r-46 cars...
The screeching of the brakes is indicative of a problem in the dynamic brake system of the car that is screeching. Under normal circumstances a subway car will slow to 5 -7 MPH before the air brake will apply. This is because as long as the dynamic brake current is being generated, a portion of it is used to energixe a valve called the 'Lockout magnet Valve' which locks out the air brake. As the dunamic fades when the train slows,the lockout opens and air flows into the brake cylinder for the final stop.
When you hear screeching, it usually means that the lockout circuit is not functioning, probably because there is no dynamic brake. However, the air brake is equivalent to the dynamic brake so the train will brake normally except for the annoying squeel.
The increase in the screeching brakes is a product of two causes. First, the hot weather plays havoc with the controllers, which are more prone to failure in the heat. Second is that maintenance efforts at virtually all shops have been diverted to maintaining the A/C systems. The problems of the R-46s and R-32s at Jamaica Shop have not gone un-noticed and we are pulling trains out of service as service needs permit, to make the necessary repairs.
We have an early example of this at Seashore, our Nagasaki trolley care #134. The controller is a "cyneston" type single handle (like the R-44/46). With the handle pointing at you (6 o'clock), you are in power off/coast. Power is applied in series and then parallel moving through successive notches (through resistance points) clockwise. But moving counterclockwise from power off are points of dynamic braking.
To slow, you take the first point of dynamic braking until it fades, then go to the next, and the next, and the next. When you run out of points (I think there are four or five) at about 5 mph, you must use the handbrake (there is no air) to stop (with appropriate squeals).
[ However,
the air brake is equivalent to the dynamic brake so the train will
brake normally except for the annoying squeel. ]
Can the air tread brakes really give the same amount of braking force as the dynamics at speed? I thought that the dynamics were capable of more effort until you got down to 10 or 15 MPH or so.
Maybe that was the case with cast-iron shoes, and the composite shoes more balanced static/kinetic friction profile allows them to provide more effort at high speed while not locking at lower speeds..
If you have enough normal force on the brake shoes, then tread
brakes can deliver plenty of braking effort. All a matter of
how much brake cylinder pressure, the area of the piston, and
the mechanical leverage of the brake rigging. Of course, high
speed high rate braking means lots of heat and all the attendant
wheel defects.
I would have thought that the technology existed today to make and maintain a friction-type brake for rail cars that doesn't squeel. Automobile brakes don't squeel unless they need maintenance. Are rail cars too heavy to stop silently? Is it the design of the brakes? Or are they just not maintained?
Maybe its the heat produced or its metal against metal.
I'll bet you guys could do a job on that subject title.
I have an undated New York City Transit System map in my collection. It is copyright by George J. Nostrand (W/O a date), and apparently sold by Pioneer Office Supply Co of 258 Broadway, New York.
The last stop on the IND is Rockaway Ave and it is identified as the A Line. In fact all IND lines seem to be identified by letter such as A, C, E, F, and GG. There seems to be service across the Brooklyn Bridge but no station at Park Row. There may be no station at Park Row because it looks as if the printer whited out the 2nd Ave El just before printing.
I'm guessing this map is from somewhere around 1940.
Can anyone tie it in any closer?
Karl B
Must be 1942. That's the year the IND opened to B'way-ENY and also the year that the whole Second Avenue El closed, must be why it was just whited out. The IND extension may have opened later that year.
BTW, I don't think that it's appropriate to ask for dating help on this board. There are many other boards for that.
Thanks JAMAN! 1942 is the year I will go with. You gave me just the dating help that I needed.
Karl B
Karl: When I first saw the title of this thread I thought you were looking for a girl friend.
Maybe I can help a little.
The IND terminated at Rockaway Av from 4/9/36 to 12/30/46. The IRT 2 Aveune El from Queens to Chatham Square was closed on 6/12/42 although the 3 Avenue El continued to run.
BMT service over the Brooklyn Bridge was discontinued on 3/5/44.
So I would have to date your map somewhere between March of 1944 and December 1946.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Whoops!! I guess I'd better reconsider that 1942 date then. Thanks Larry! I was going to send you a note about this map, but I don't think that my E-mails are getting through to you.
BTW My wife says that I am not allowed to have a girlfriend!
Karl B
Larry RedbirdR33, Think about this a minute. Considering the dates that you listed, I looked at the map again. It definately shows service across the Brooklyn Bridge and the Sands St station is shown. The only problem is that the Park Row station is missing. I am thinking that the Park Row station accidentally got deleted when they deleted the 2nd Ave Line. Would that not date this map between 6/12/42 and 3/5/44?
Karl B
Karl: It may be as you say but the Brooklyn Bridge Line crossed what would properly be both branches of the 3 Avenue El. The 2 Avenue El ended at Chatham Square even though the trains ran over the 3 Av south of that point. If it was a printers mistake then it could have been between the dates you mentioned.
I did receive your last e-mail so my post is working. Thank you for the info.
Larry,RedbirdR33
...of course, there is the possiblity that for two years they just let the trains fly down the Brooklyn Bridge and off the end of the track with no station there (heck, they were gonna scrap the el cars anyway, why not have some fun to take everybody's mind off WWII)
On the down side, this would have been far more dangerous to LaGuardia and the other people inside City Hall than Rudy thinks the closed underground IRT station is.
Don't forget, those El cars were used for still another 15 years after Brooklyn Bridge service ended. I think someone at this site said that they were used on the Myrtle Ave line until 1959.
Karl B
After studying this map some more it dawned on me that the Third Ave El is gone south of Chatham Square, except for the tie-in over to Chambers Street. According to this map there is no El south of Chatham Square. I guess that whoever had the job to delete the 2nd Ave El just took out everything right down to South Ferry and the Park Row station at the end of the Brooklyn Bridge.
I suppose this still dates the map circa 1943 but I wonder how many other errors are in it.
Karl B
If there's no el south of Chatham Sq, then the map dates back to 1950, when South Ferry was closed. City Hall was abandoned in 1953, leaving only Chatham Sq to be the Southern Terminus for this el.
-Stef
Stef, The map shows service across the Brooklyn Bridge, but no Park Row station in Manhattan. The Sands St station in Brooklyn is shown. The IND terminates at Rockaway Ave in Brooklyn. As I said to Steve, I think that whoever was making the corrections to update this map really did not know very much about transit. Did the Lexington Ave Line ever operate all the way to 168th St in Jamaica? In my time it terminated at 111th St. This map would indicate that it went all the way to 168th.
Karl B
Karl: Without going into great detail I would say that the Lexington Av El ran to 168 Street from the time the line was opened in 1918 up until 1923 when it was cut back to Eastern Parkway with rush hour extension to 111 Street. This service pattern lasted until October 13,1950 when the Lex was closed.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry, That's about what I figured. In other words the mapmaker had not updated this particular line since 1923, yet he was all fired up to get the 1942 demise of the 2nd Ave El off the map and deleted station names and stations on other lines in the process.
Karl B
From what I read, it did at some point. In 1920, the Lex did indeed proceed to 168th St. It was only 3 years later that the folks in the new found BMT decided to cut the Lex back to Eastern Parkway. That should have been the case until the el was closed in 1950. Perhaps what went to 111th St was the Broadway Brooklyn Local which had multiple terminals. The line was also referred to as the #14.
-Stef
Stef, I lived on that line from 1942-1957. From personal experience I know that during rush-hours the Lex was extended from Eastern Parkway to 111th St and service was by open platform gate cars until Oct 13th, 1950. There was 24/7 service from NY to 168th St using Standards or "steels" as we called them then. I never saw a gate car beyond 111th St, unless it was on a work train.
Karl B
I see. Well, thanks!
Hey, you know I was at the front of 1349 over at Branford, flagging the car into the shop as the 1907 Hi-Voltage Car was pushing from behind? What an odd item! The cars were connected by a tow bar and not coupler to coupler as those two would have lost their couplers going around the loop. The loop is a bit tight for the Rapid Transit Cars. 1349 really needs the work! Unfortunately, she's not functional right now. The motors aren't even mounted on the trucks. I hope Jeff H. and my friends in the shop can find a way to make 1349 roll again. The gates on one end have been dismantled. She'd be great for an excursion in the summer, running alongside our BRT Convertible Streetcar, 4573.
-Stef
Stef, Thanks for the news on #1349. A friend tells me that the gates are off of one end because they are going to attempt to construct a new end platform. I understand that one side is painted green with no number and the other side is painted brown and numbered. Gosh, I wish I could get up there to see it and touch it. I hope you can keep me updated on the progress made.
Karl B
Karl...are you a member? There is a picture of 1349
in the August issue of the Shore Line Trolley Museum's
newsletter.
Jeff, No I'm not a member, in fact I have never even had the opportunity to visit. I figure that by auto I must be about 9 or 10 hours away from Branford so I guess there is not too much chance of me getting there. When I left NY in 1957, I went southwest. Considering my interests, I should have gone north or northeast and I would have wound up a lot closer. I used to have a number of different memberships and subscriptions but retirement has meant giving most of them up. I do still have my membership in O&WRHS. I'll bet you won't be able to figure that one out.
Karl B
I'll see you and raise you! I know what it is, and I suspect Jeff does too, but we'll find out. Where did you end up, Karl? From the general direction you gave it sounds like you could be anywhere from West-By-God_Virginia to Kentucky, Tennesee, or North Carolina.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anon_e_mouse,
Did you ever hear of Gettysburg? There was a very big battle here 136 years ago. It's in south-central Pennsylvania, a stones-throw from the Maryland state line. My wife just reminded me that I still have my membership in THS too. Can you do anything with that one?
Karl B
P.S.- What the devil is llRC? That one really stumps me.
IIRC = If I Recall Correctly
As to Gettysburg, yes, I'm rather familiar with that place. I had family on both sides there during the War of Northern Aggression (now that you know where my sympathies lie!).
You got me on THS!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IIRC, I have been reading that all this time as LLRC. If I had read it correctly the first time I saw it, I just might have figured it out. I guess I didn't just get old, I got stupid too!
I may originally be from Brooklyn, but I dearly love North Carolina. If I couldn't be here, it would be my next choice.
There was a tragic historical event on Apr,14-15th,1912 which was the reason THS was created. Got it now?
To get back on topic, Do you know the number and condition of the other 1300 at Branford?
Karl B
OK, the Titanic. No, I don't know the status of the other 1300 - I haven't visited there since 1993, even though I've been "temporarily" working in New Jersey since January of 1996 (North Carolina being what I have called my "permanent" residence since 1981). I'm sure one of the Branford members can answer that question, though.
I can't remember the last time I was in Gettysburg - all I can say for sure is that it was before I was married, and I've been Zayda for the last 2 1/2 years!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
OK, you got be straightened out on IIRC, and then you come up with Zayda!! You've got me again! What's Zayda?
Do you remember when Cheerios were called Cheerioats, and it was the Lone Ranger's breakfast cereal? I'll bet you don't even remember who Brace Beemer was!!
Karl B
Zayda is Yiddish for Grandpa - although my Jewish ancestry is Sephardic (and therefore my great-grandmother's vernacular would have been Ladino rather than Yiddish) I come from an interfaith background with little immediate cultural heritage, and besides, Zayda is quite easy for a young tongue to master. My grandson Alex was 2 in March and he is expecting a brother around the beginning of October. I don't remember Cheerios being called Cheerioats, but I do associate them with the Lone Ranger. And Brace Beemer doesn't ring a bell.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I guess you have seen that LarryRedbirdR33 knew who Brace Beemer was. I was going to tell you that he was to radio what Clayton Moore was to TV. He forgot to tell us who Fred Foy was though.
I found out that the other 1300 at Branford is the 1362. I found the information right at this site. I am still wondering about its condition.
Tomorrow we stay on topic, Right!
Karl B
Yes, 1362 is the other 1300 series BU. It differs from 1349
in some minor detail, being of another car builder. I would
have to honestly describe the condition as fair, which if you've
ever collected coins you know really means "not too pleasant".
The car is outdoor storage, although it has a long-term protective
tarp on it. I inspected it last year and the tarp is keeping
it stabilized.
Karl, retired membership in BERA is only $15/year! Think it over.
Right ;-)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Karl: Brace Beemer was the original Lone Ranger on radio. He was replaced by Earle Grasser but returned after Grasser was killed in a car accident. HI-Yo Silver Away''
Larry,RedbirdR33
I visited Gettysburg in May of 1972. My high school band from New Jersey performed at the high school there as part of an exchange concert with the Gettysburg band. They visited us in March of that year and spent a day in NYC. We toured the battleground there. That trip also marked the last time I was on the Pennsylvania Turnpike.
August 9 played host to a few milestones, to get back on topic. I rode on the IRT for the first time, to the Bronx Zoo, on this date in 1967, and visited Shore Line for the first time in 1980.
Wow! I haven't been on in two days and what an incredible thread this is? I have multiple posts going up since I haven't been on in so long.
Karl,
I'll do my best to keep you updated. The only other 1300 series car at Branford is 1362, condition unknown. Jeff will have a better idea of how that car is. I don't expect it to be functional. At present time, 1362 is sitting under a tarp outside the barns on what we call the Runaround Track with another classic el car, BRT Instruction Car 999. I really do hope that each of the el cars get some Tender Loving Care as 1227 can't do all the chores on the Branford Museum Line. Every car has a problem and is in some kind of condition. They have to be handled, but the question is when and how long will the restoration work take. And of course, who has the $?
Being understaffed is also an unfortunate disadvantage.
-Stef
This Rail Historian has seen car 1349 at BERA in 1988 and in 1973. It a wonderful BU Gate. I have many photographs of it at BERA in New York City.
The car looks okay. I wish it was in better shape.
-Stef
This Rail Historian has seen car 1349 at BERA in 1988 and in 1973. It's a wonderful BU Gate. I have many photographs of it at BERA and in New York City.
[So I would have to date your map somewhere between March of 1944 and December 1946.]
As a historical note, a date near the end of that period - December 23, 1946 - set a record, which still stands, for the most people carried on the subway in a 24-hour period. IIRC, it was something over eight million!
That record included a fellow by the name of Brian Cudahy. I'm willing to bet that Marx Brothers scene which Wayne has alluded to a few times repeated itself quite a bit that day.
One thought: are there any IND 6th Ave. routes (BB, D, F) on that map? The 6th Ave. line opened on December 15, 1940.
Steve, I am afraid that this is just not a very accurate map. I guess the maker did not keep up with what was actually going on in transit. What I would call the 6th Ave line shows only the letters C & F. The C apparently went to 205th St in the Bronx, and the F to 169th St in Jamaica. The letters BB or D are not shown at all.
Karl B
There was a C service, in addition to the CC back then, but it operated via 8th Ave. Same thing with the E. The B, D, and F markings were set aside for 6th Ave. services and were implemented when that line opened. You may have a pre-1940 map. Does the map even show the 6th Ave. line?
I sent a copy of the map to LarryRedbirdR33 just today. I saw so many things that confused me that I'm not sure when it was from. I've been gone so long that there are stations and lines that I have forgotten or just don't remember. I suspect that there were some corrections that were missed starting in 1923. I trust that Larry will post his comments after he has a chance to look it over. I still think that 1942 is a pretty close date.
Karl B
The Rail Historian knows that someone on Subtalk must have entered the tunnel under the apartment building between Sedgewick Avenue and Anderson-Jerome Avenue Stations on the Polo Ground. People live in this apartment building and there must be access.
What happened to that knowledgeable individual called Mr. Train Control? I enjoyed reading his messages on train control subjects. He really knows his stuff well.
Sometimes another city does something better than New York and I discovered just such a thing in Chicago two weeks ago, which no doubt will provide New York's TA with an outstanding model to copy.
At O'Hare, there is a machine where one can buy a one-day visitor's pass. The machine does not give change, however, so one must deposit five dollars.
Next to the pass machine is a change machine, which will give change for a $10 bill, for example. One inserts the $10 bill and gets ten Susan B. Anthony dollars.
The machine for the day pass, which is right next to the change machine, does not take the SBAs which just came out of the CTA's change machine, only paper money.
If a CTA employee with five singles (willing to exchange the SBAs for folding money at par) had not been there, I would have had to walk all over the terminal to get change for the day pass. I would imagine someone with a roll of dollar bills could make a good profit all day long by charging 7 or 8 SBAs for 5 dollar bills.
Since CTA and the NYTA are similar-thinking agencies, can we expect matching machines like Chicago's to appear in New York?
Just wondering.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Sorry for hitting the wrong button--I didn't mean this to be a response to the inquiry about Mr. Train Control's whereabouts but simply a new post.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
You've got to be kidding. Let's hope New York goes one step further and installs machines which will accept dollar coins, as well as paper currency.
Not kidding--it happened just as I recounted it.
It was the juxtaposition of the two CTA machines that really got to me.
I also had problems a few years back with ticket machines for the San Diego trolley, which had signs that they couldn't accept various kinds of currency (new bills, for example, but they were working on it).
What's terribly frustrating about much of this is the insistence on cash or equivalent fares only or particular kinds of currency--drivers/operators/motorpeople don't give change so it might happen that a farebox won't take the currency you have, even though it's legal tender--and they don't want pennies.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I can't speak for Chicago, but NYC bus fareboxes do accept pennies, despite the claim (displayed prominently on the farebox itself) that they don't. (Or, at least, they did, pre-MetroCard -- I suppose the newest fareboxes may have changed this.)
He decided to stop posting because it would be the "Politically Correct" thing to do. I hope that the current Penn Station is demolished and it's debris dumped in the Meadowlands under which the "PC Police" should all be buried. Just combining two things.
*I* can answer this but I suspect the idea behind your post was not to have me answer it. Right?
-Dave
$(LOGDIR)/access_log :)
Oh, why, oh WHY does that look like a VMS command?
because it has a slash in it...but it's UNIX
This Rail Historian wants someone to start a Rail Fan Hall of Fame. This will be like the Baseball Hall of Fame in Cooperstown. It will have displayed memorabilia from famous rail fans including famous photographs and artifacts. The ERA will be represented. Don Harold should the greatest living rail fan in the Hall of Fame. The first rail fan like Herman Hinke should be recognized. Ed Watson and Bernard Linder should be kept in high esteem. David Pirmann the famous webmaster could be recognized for his contributions to the World Wide Web.
The Rail Fan Hall of Fame would at the New York Transit Museum.
This just reminds me. Sylvia's diner in 270 Broadway (at Chambers) is sort of a "Miss Subways" hall of fame, sporting various pictures.
My mistake, that's Ellen's. I got my diners-with-women's-names mixed up.
Don't forget Ellen's Stardust Diner at 1650 Broadway (46th St). That's the one with the outside made up to look like a Redbird.
Sylvia's? That's uptown - 126th & Malcolm X Bvld (#2/#3). Best fried chicken I have EVER eaten, period.
Wayne
I'll nominate someone, while he was more of a traction photographer,he recorded a great deal of the Third Ave Railway System. The man was Frank Schlegel
The Rail Historian wants to thanks Mr. David Pirmann for this great website. Everyone using Subtalk and Bustalk needs to thank him.
Here Here.
However, let's not do it at the initial suggestion of an infantile mentality. (Not you, Larry)
Agreed. This isn't necessary. Lets keep things on topic.
That's true. Everyone give Dave a hand!
The Rail Historian wants to recognize Harry Newjint as the famous subway conductor who made interesting station announcements and became a celebrity. He retired a few years ago. Here is one of his messages direct from the "1" train.
"59th Street Columbus Circle is offers John Jay College, Arts Student League, American Bible Society and perhaps all you need is change to A and E trains. Incidently, you are no way obliged to do any of the above things"
Harry needs to be recognized in the RAIL FAN HALL OF FAME.
Yes, definitely a conductor worth remembering. (Although if he offered a transfer to the E at Columbus Circle, perhaps he should take another look at the map.) He also included subway-related details that other conductors don't bother with, like announcing on a SB 1 that "transfers to the downtown express are on the house" -- correctly implying that transfers to the uptown express cost an extra fare.
Didn't he also begin his farewell mini-speech to Zubin Mehta (at 66th-Lincoln Center, of course) with "from one conductor to another"?
The Forgotten NY webmaster has to be something of a nitpicker here and mention that he spelled his name "Nugent."
Visit his site at
www.forgotten-ny.com
Just tryin' to get in the swing of it....
Gee, at first I thought you were writing about me. Ya know, if I made announcements like that I would be afraid to leave my cab!
Yes Harry was a good man. I know him personaly. I remember one day at Times Square someone was holding the doors. He said over the PA. Holding subway train doors can be kind of a drag. I would ride his train from Times Square to 242 Street every morning. One thing witch I never said when I did mention Harry on this site. That is he was consintly being harassed about his annoutsments. But he stud his ground intil the last day. He said the reason for his annoutsments is because he wanted to be Diffrent for the rest. Im just sorry I missed his Big Retirement Party. I was swiched of to the No.6 Line then.
He must have been a Buckinghams fan. They recorded a tune back in the 60s called Kind of a Drag.
That conductor I heard on the A once was good as well. Nice, deep voice, plainly audible. "Good afternoon, passengers, you've just boarded a Lefferts Blvd.-bound A express. The next stop will be 42nd St. No smoking on the train, no smoking on the train."
This Rail Historian finds Harry Nugent to be the greatest in making station annoucements. For example: We are entering the 66th Street station which is located two octives below Lincoln Center and two blocks from the Lillian Beaumont Theatre. Times Square 42nd Street is next where there is a broken heart for every light on Broadway or is it a broken light for every heart on Broadway? However, it breaks my heart that you willleave has us here. You can change for 2,3 express trains, N and R trains, #7 Flushing and the Shuttle. No one easy step here, up one track and down the other. This is the Uptown Number 1 and you're the one we want to ride with us today.
The Rail Historian wants all to have good evening.
I don't know how the rest of you feel but The Rail Historian is starting to get a bit on the annoying side with his posting in the 3rd party and posting things that I think most of us already know about on Transit history.
I am sure you mean well, but TRH, how about coming here in the first person as yourself for a change. The rest of us have no problem being ourselves, how come you do (or do you)?
The Universal Critic agrees.
And the Children must play.
People are too easily annoyed. Unless I'm faced with a credible threat of violence, I just ignore what I don't like. Others put up with me, so who is to say what is worth being posted?
This Rail Historian has been trying to share some facts. Just because you know them is reason why others don't know. I don't appreciate your remarks and I have every right to use Subtalk like you others do. I never called you annoying or others the same. Let's get along. Many others on Subtalk use code names.
I think this "Good Evening" message is a satire posted by someone to make fun of the "Rail Historian"'s style. Some of his posts may seem almost that ridiculous, but not quite.
Dave P., can you determine whether or not the "Good Evening" message came from the same domain as the other "Rail Historian" posts?
They seek him here
They seek him there
Those Frenchies seek him everywhere
Is he is Heaven
Is he in Hell
That damned elusive Rail Historian
The Universal Critic apologies to the Scarlet Pimpernel for the plagiarism.
Boy, do I feel unlettered---I thought you were apologizing to the Kinks---I recognize similar lines from a 1966 release by that musical group.
The Universal Critic does not recall the popular culture reference to which you allude.
The Universal Critic would be grateful if you would supply the name of this "Kinks" song so that the Univeral Critic may be able to make light conversation at cocktail parties and similar social engagements attended by those of a certain generation.
Sorry, Universal Critic---I didn't see your response until just now---the Kinks song to which I was referring was entitled "Dedicated Follower of Fashion", a tongue-in-cheek poke at the Carnaby Street fashion craze of the mid-60's. It was released not long after the transit stike of 1966.
It sounds as if Ray Davies snitched a few of the lines from "The Scarlet Pimpernel" for his 1966 hit "Dedicated Follower Of Fashion", a copy of which sits in slot #38 of Box 1-2 up on my wall unit shelf.
Reprise 0471. Good song!
Wayne
I was on a train this morning, and it dumped about halfway into the station. The T/O buzzed the conductor not to open (I forget if it was one long or three short), and he didn't.
But, nobody called control (I have a radio), and no one got out to observe track conditions. I didn't see if we had ran a signal or not, but there was no train ahead of us, so at most it could have been a timer.
The T/O just charged back up and pulled in..
Several Questions:
1) When a car gets tripped, does someone need to manually reset the tripcock?
2) What are the rules for calling in a BIE and walking the train?
I guess a possibility is that he dropped the button, or just went too far with the controller. In that case, I can see the above actions making sense, since he knew the cause of the BIE, and walking the track wouldn't have helped anything.
It's really starting to get frustrating. All of the following happened on one 4 car train today.
DE30AC - lost power approaching Mineola - fortunately, it restarted.
Car #4090 had no AC & annoying feedback in the PA
Cars 4003 and 5023 had doors that would not function
Train lost indication several times.
At one time I thought that the failures were simply 'infant mortality' type stuff. Now I'm starting to think that the critics are correct about the garbage KHI is supplying. Knowing the ex-TA people working for KHI, I don't expect things to get better any time soon.
What do you mean by "lost indication"? if it's cab signals - they always cut out at impedance bonds - watch next time and you'll notice they drop to 0 for a few secs at every one, ands at lots of switches in harold too.
As far as I'm concerned - the new stuff is just an expensive failure,. Why the LIRR *NEEDED* to get double deckers and a whole new locomotive, when the there was single level stuff and the Genesis, is beyond me.
Seriously - there's no need for a double decker on the Oyster Bay - 2 cars are always closed on the train.
And this evening's rush hour on the LIRR featured 45-minute delays for Ronkonkoma, Port Jefferson, Oyster Bay and Hempstead trains due to "police activity" at Floral Park. Whatever happened, it couldn't have been much; when my train made its (delayed) way through Floral Park, I checked to see what was going on and had what you might call a Blair Witch experience ... in other words, I saw nothing.
According to CBS-TV news, there was an armed person at the Mineola train station and the Nassau County Police were 'looking' for him.
There is also a story in Newsday saying that it was the Mineola station. Sorry that I'm not net-proficient enough to provide a direct link, but you can get to it by going to www.newsday.com, clicking on Library and then searching the latest one day for "LIRR".
Chuck
[ What do you mean by "lost indication"? if it's cab signals - they ]
I think he meant "Door light", in LIRR parlance. A circuit that will prevent the train from taking power with doors open. The new bilevels add a second layer of protection, that they will not allow the doors to open if the train is going beyond a certain speed, or does not have brake applied.
[ Seriously - there's no need for a double decker on the Oyster Bay - 2
cars are always closed on the train. ]
Off-peak, that's the case. During peak, they've been using 4 open cars, and they need it. The most popular trains on the O/B #507 and #562, which used to be pulled by double-headed MP-15's (but now is push-pull like the rest of them), has 6 pullman coaches. My guess is that those two trains will be the ones on the O/B to get direct Penn Sta service, while the rest of the line will end up terminating at Mineola, using the new siding almost completed there.
Are you a regular Oyster Bay Passenger? Is anyone else here? Maybe we can say hello sometime.
Yup, I'm an OBer as you know Steve K, at least when I visit Roslyn -- the old home town. Actually, Albertson was closest to my house; I could walk there in seven minutes :-)
I use the OB whne i go to the city approxonce a month and i was htinking that the trains with the doulbe head mp15s would be the direct ones can you or anyone else confirm that. I that siding part of all this upgraded for tyhe new fleet
[ I use the OB whne i go to the city approxonce a month and i was
htinking that the trains with the doulbe head mp15s would be the
direct ones can you or anyone else confirm that. I that siding part of
all this upgraded for tyhe new fleet ]
I don't think anyone knows how schedules will change once the DM30's and that siding come into use. Crews don't seem to know. I'm guessing that mgmt is keeping quiet on it, because they know they won't be able to please everyone!
The siding (mineola->merrilon) was done really more as part of the Herricks Road grade crossing elimination project, than out of anything having to do with the bilevels and new platforms. When they built the bridge over Herricks Rd, it allowed them to shift the alignment of the two mainline tracks north, and install this third track on the south. This has been another project that they've been keeping quiet -- Not that it's any kind of secret anymore, but noone really knew why they had the tracks so far north during the herricks rd project, and I think that was mainly to avoid community opposition from people living next to the ROW. By time they figured out they were getting a third track, it was too late to do anything.
And, a tree fell across the Port Jeff tracks (not sure where) and a nut was waving a gun at Mineola.
"There's a holdup in The Bronx, Brooklyn's broken out in fights, there's a traffic jam in Harlem that's backed up to Jackson Heights...Tom Prendergast, where are you"
www.forgotten-ny.com
The tree fell in the vicinity of Smithtown.
[ DE30AC - lost power approaching Mineola - fortunately, it restarted.
Car #4090 had no AC & annoying feedback in the PA
Cars 4003 and 5023 had doors that would not function
Train lost indication several times. ]
I've seen all of these problems before. The indication and door problems are related -- the crews disable the doors when they're not properly giving indication.
The feedback from the PA, as I'm told, is due in part to a modification of the ventilation system in the front (A end) of the cars, near the conductors' position. Apparently, the area with seats just behind the crew booth(s) was not getting enough A/C, so they added some duct work to take some air going to the crew area, and bring it back to those seats. Doing so provided an open ductway from right next to the P/A speaker, to right above the comms panel. This provides an enhanced audio path back to the mic, and the feedback.
At least, that was the story I got from a conductor. I guess the system was marginal before re: feedback, and this put it over the top. I remember when they first came around, the PA mics were very insensitive, and the crew's announcements were a lot lower in volume than the computer announcements, enough that the computer was hurting my ears a bit, and I could hardly hear the crew.
On that topic, the whole computerized announcement system is really a mess, but sometimes it is amusing. I was on #570 (9:00PM Jamaica -> Oyster Bay) last night. For some reason it came in on track 5 instead of 8. (As an aside, I heard tha Jamaica stationmaster tell the crew on my train, 180, which connects, that the O.B would be on 5, and ask that they announce it to the passengers, but the crew didn't say anything. Really bad attitude, if you ask me, because the damned P.A. button is right next to the transmitter button -- how much effort would it take to make the announcement?).
Anyways, I get on the bilevels on track 5, and it says (and reads) "This is the train to Oyster Bay. This station is "Penn Station", The next station is "Long Island City". Of course, this was amusing not only because it was wrong (we were at Jamaica, next stop Mineola), and not only because no train makes Penn then LIC, but because it isn't even possible without a reverse move! (Penn -> Harold Area -> Hunterspoint -> LIC, or Penn -> Jamaica -> Lower Montauk -> LIC). So I asked the Conductor which way we were going, via Hunterspoint or Lower Montauk. He told me Lower Montauk, and that we would not be stopping at Haberman :)
A Penny (Bridge) for your thoughts, Steve!
HUMBUG! Bombardier is serving up garbage! AdTranz is serving up garbage! Now Kawasaki (whom I haven't heard any complaints about up until now) is serving up garbage!
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???
Maybe we should deep-six all of this newfangled stuff and go back to basics and build us some MP-54s or IC PrS coaches or BMT Standards or R10s or more R26s or something else that's going to last for 40+ years! I'm sure the blueprints are out there. But in all seriousness - there seems to be WAY TOO MANY problems with new equipment! Who's checking this stuff out anyway?
Wayne
[Maybe we should deep-six all of this newfangled stuff and go back to basics and build us some MP-54s or IC PrS coaches or BMT Standards or R10s or more R26s or something else that's going to last for 40+ years!]
I've stated in these pages before that transit should be fast, safe, convenient and functional. Gold plating, which started after the public purse became available, has never enhanced the transit vehicles that are in service today. Speak of the PRR/LIRR MP54 or the Bethlehem Shipbuilding RDG MU's from the 1930's. These cars lasted almost fifty years or more. How long did the Boeing Vertol junk last? How long will the M-1's last? The Jersey Arrows are gone! Most of the equipment today is built of stainless steel - which in therory should last forever. The old steel equipment didn't have that going for it but still lasted a long, long time.
San Diego had the right idea - build it cheap and simple, make it attactive to the rider, and the people will use it.
The M-4 cars of SEPTA are beautiful today. What will they be like in five years?
Jim K.
Chicago
Good question, but...
What if the problem isn't the technology, but the WORKMANSHIP? A new car built to D-type standards (mixed equipment? ) won't be worth very much if the components are poorly made and fit together.
David
[Maybe we should deep-six all of this newfangled stuff and go back to basics and build us some MP-54s or IC PrS coaches or BMT Standards or R10s or more R26s or something else that's going to last for 40+ years! I'm sure the blueprints are out there. But in all seriousness - there seems to be WAY TOO MANY problems with new equipment! Who's checking this stuff out anyway? ]
WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???
Good Question. There is no simple answer. I can tell you that a large part of it is engineering. Cars like the C-3 are typically subject to change orders and field modifications due to improper or incomplete engineering. Additionally, Kawasaki has hired 3 former NYCT employees to grease the skids when things go wrong with production. These jobs are often payback for past favors but the fact is that these ex-employees are collecting MTA pensions while working for a company doing business (to the tune of Billions of $$$s) with the MTA. Conflicts and the potential for corruption abound.
As much as I'd LOVE to see MP-54's again (ok, maybe make that *will* see - My first encounter with 4137 will always be remembbered, even if nothing comes of it), the design would never be built today, though I'm sure with some minor changes, it could be. Among the problems with the PRR versions:
1) NO fuses, at all, in either the 11kv, or traction, circuits. A trtansformer failure, severe overload, or other fault that would draw high current would trip the PL relay - which would PREVENT the engineer from lowering the pantograph on the affected car - but automatically lower it AFTER power was removed. An overload in the traction circuits would hopefully trip the overload realy first - which is a simple reset. But it could operate the PL relay also - which would lower the pan.
2) Re application of power above 30 mph is a no no.
3) There are only 5 steps from start to full power - probbably rather jerky acceleration.
4) Completely non ADA compliant, and rather unsafe to pass between cars.
5) After sitting in the cab of 4137 (identical body), I get the impression they weren't very comfortable.
6) Slow.
On the positive side:
1) So simple, there's nothing to break.
2) Cooler pantograph than those but-ugly Favielys
3) Windows open.
4) Looks like a train, not an overgrown R-46.
5) Cooler whistle.
As for all the other equipment - I'm sure they share more or less the same flaws / advantages. Mind you, that list isn't major - all could be easily solved. Switch to a stainless body, add A/C and you have something that could last forever. I like the idea myself - today's equipment is too complicated - as evidenced by the spectacular failure of the LIRR M-1, M-3, and new diesel fleet. I'm sure the M-7 will be the same.
BTW - anyone know if they're going to dump the inboard bearing trucks for something that actually rides well, on the M-7?
The new stuff always has teething problems. But hey my dad once had to go back to Jamaica from Mieola because of a fuel leak
Probably Cher. Lahdy-dahdy-dee, lahdy-dahdy-dah.... Rim shot!!! Nice bass lick on that song, too.
Seriously, I agree. Older technology may be considered obsolete by some, but at least it worked. Someone forgot about KISS along the way - Keep It Simple, Stupid. New R-10s - that would be something.
The R-10s weren't simple, they were innovative and packed some new features
For their time - yes they were complex machines. But by today's standards, and compared to such techological marvels as the R110A and R110B, they are fairly simple. SMEE RULES!
Wayne
R10 - the first cars with flourescent lights.
Untrue! The R-7A was the first car with flourescent lights! Even if it was only #1575.
OK, you got me on a technicality! :o) What I meant was the R10 was the first fleet of cars to have flourescent light. You can count the R12 and R14 in with them if you wish to be absolutely correct, since they all arrived roughly the same time.
Wayne
One slight difference between the R-10s and their IRT cousins was the door engines. The R-10s had air-operated doors with the familiar "ttdddkk-ksssss" lock and air release sounds while the R-12s and R-14s had electric door engines. Oddly enough, I was under the false impression that because of their pneumatic doors, the R-10s weren't compatible with any other cars when in fact they were. Maybe it was because I always saw them only in solid trains. Taking that theory one step further, I was under another false impression that the R-12s and R-14s were modified in order to m. u. with other cars when in fact they weren't.
The R-10s began delivery in 1948 through 1949. The R-12s were delivered in 1948 but the R-14s did not arrive until late 49.
They were state-of-the-art for their time, that's for sure. Four motors per car, SMEE braking, fast compressors, the fastest doors in New York, speed to burn... The immortal R-10s were tailor-made for the A line.
Steve wants to know what significant and related events took place on the following dates.
1) October 30, 1954
2) December 1, 1955
A true rail historian will have no problem with that question.
(Steve also wants to know why you want to annoy so many people.)
"Steve wants to know what significant and related events took place on the following dates.
1) October 30, 1954
2) December 1, 1955
A true rail historian will have no problem with that question.
(Steve also wants to know why you want to annoy so many people.)"
This Rail Historian wants you know that describing New York City Subway events is the reason for Subtalk and is not annoying. I never insulted you or any other person. But you believe you have the right to insult me. If you don't like my call and you don't like the call of many others on Subtalk.
I don't have the answers to your quiz above at this time. I will look it up however the 1955 date is probably the closing of the 3rd Avenue EL in Manhatten from south of 149th Street to Chatham Squire. The 1954 date might be date the IND was connected to the Culver Line.
Your answer to #1 is correct.
The connection from the 60th St. tunnel to the IND Queens line opened on December 1, 1955. It marked the first time that IND and BMT equipment shared common trackage. (The R-1s which ran tests on the Sea Beach in 1931 don't count.)
What happened on March 5, 1944?
On March 5, 1944, the Universal Critic's former mother-in-law danced the hoochie-koochie at a disreputable establish underneath the New York and Brooklyn Bridge, which by that time had become known simply as the Brooklyn Bridge.
Now it seems to me something less significant also happened ... Oh, yes, those noisy elevated trains ceased running on the bridge above. Mother-in-law liked that, though. The rumble of those infernal things always threw her timing off.
This Rail Historian says to Steve, it its called 11th Street Cut. The tower in the bowels of the tunnel is a GRS original true NX panel.
Any message from the Rail Historian is from Rail Historian and not a third party. Have a good afternoon Steve on the 8th Avenue Express.
steve wrote that because to put it simple you're a DORK. there is no need to start off your posts by speaking of yourself by refering to that illustrious name of yours. steve also pointed out that you dont have your facts straight so why don't you do us all a favor and shut up, or at least change your name. latas
[ steve wrote that because to put it simple you're a DORK. there is no need to start off your posts by speaking of yourself by refering to that illustrious name of yours. ... so why don't you do us all a favor and shut up, or at least change your name. latas ]
I think that kind of attitude is unecessary. No one should be out to shut other people up around here, at least IMHO. (Which everyone is welcome to disgree with.)
I think perhaps Chirpy, myself, and possibly others, are most annoyed by "The Rail Historian" referring to himself in the third person.
I think that perhaps he doesn't realize how that sort of thing sounds in writing. I'm sure if I were to talk to Rail Historian in person, there would be a tone of voice that would make it come accross as I assume it is intended - in good humor.
But we are not speaking face-to-face, and I think speaking of yourself in the third person in writing comes off as pretenious and condescending, which no one appreciates. It's actually very rude, IMHO.
I'm forced to agree that it really doesn't sound friendly and it does sound conscedending.. Also the fact that you bring up facts randomly for no discernible discussion purpose. But I'm positive that this can be worked out.
Rich and Chirpy,
I wasn't going to respond to you post however, you guys are forcing me to. I have been a Rail Historian for over 30 years. Anyone can memorize dates of events on the New York City subway and this doesn't define a Rail Historian. I don't call others on Subtalk nasty names like DORK. Furthermore, I have the liberty to use any code or call name I want. Look at these people called, SubwayBuff, Slant R40, BMT Man, A Non A Mouse and many others. I'm no different. My real name is not known because you guys are very much strangers to me. In fact, it appears that both of you are new to Subtalk. What are your last names? See you guys don't want other strangers to know.
The postings for the Rail Historian appears to be 3rd person however, I write for myself without a ghost writer. I don't criticize anyone writing styles on Subtalk. You and others don't like mine. Read the posting of the "Universal Critic".
Guess what, I do make typos errors on Subtalk.
I bring up topics like Goetz and Serpico sometimes to tease and discover what others have to say. This is subway related. Did you know that Frank Serpico rode the subway a lot and rode it with Ramsey Clark to testify against Police corruption. This created the Napp Commission against police corruption. This is subway related subject.
I will continue to use the Rail Historian handle inspite of your comments. Pardon this quote that sums up my feelings said by the late Frank Sinatra, "I will not dignify that crap". However, I do apologize for using but it explains my feelings.
< Did you know that Frank Serpico rode the subway a lot and rode it with Ramsey Clark to testify against Police corruption. >
I'm no expert on Framk Serpico, but I'm a little more familair with Ramsey Clark.
Would it be a fair question as to whether their teaming up on "police corruption" reflected more an honest character or more a simple hatred of police.
Post-Serpico, we went so far down the road of guarding against police corruption that we wouldn't even allow beat cops to make arrests of low level drug dealers. At the height of this policy the murder rate in New York approximated 2,200.
We need to have honest police, but we mustn't lose sight of the reason we have police in the first place.
[ Furthermore, I have the liberty to use any code or call name I want. Look at these people called, SubwayBuff, Slant R40, BMT Man, A Non A Mouse and many others. ]
I had no complaint about your call name / handle. I think you're right and your argument is valid.
[ In fact, it appears that both of you are new to Subtalk. What are your last names? See you guys don't want other strangers to know. ]
I haven't been here as long as many, that is certainly true, but I've been around for at least 6 months I'd say. Maybe more - I'm not certain.
I go by Rich because it's short and casual. My full name is Rich Brome. I'm 21, live in Philadelphia, attend Drexel University, and work for ACE-INA (insurance) and WebLinc (Internet), both doing web application development. I'm perfectly happy to tell you who I am. I have nothing to hide, and I trust everyone here not use that information against me or judge me negatively because of it.
[ The postings for the Rail Historian appears to be 3rd person however, I write for myself without a ghost writer. ]
That's exactly what I find fault with. If you were relaying messages, for someone without Internet access for example, then 3rd person would be fine. But you're not, and given that, I find it pretentious and condescending, a sentiment that appears to be shared by many SubTalkers.
[ I don't criticize anyone writing styles on Subtalk. ]
That's because you don't find them to be rude and obnoxious, as I do yours.
[ You and others don't like mine. Read the posting of the "Universal Critic". ]
If I'm not mistaken, Universal Critic was mocking you.
While I'd like to stay out of this exchange, I'll add my 2 cents with an observation that rings true almost every time. An 'expert' in any field is one who is recognized and given this title by his/her colleagues, not him/herself. If you want to deal with a true 'expert' in any field, avoid those who give themselves this title. In almost every case, when the title is self-imposed, the 'expert' surely is not.
By the way, the Knapp Commission is how it's spelled. Are you saying Serpico testified to Clark on subway trains? Given the trains that ran in that period, that could have been an awfully iffy affair for anyone wanting to keep conversations private and still be heard in noisy subway cars.
Can we drop this subject, please? TRH obviously thinks his style is cute or funny. Some of us obviously beg to differ. Maybe he likes to sound like Julius Caesar in his travelogue (sp?) about France. Maybe there is some other explanation why he is so wedded to a style that offends so many of us. Whatever the reason, the solution is simple: if he insists on exercising his right to write in the third person, we can exercise our right to stop reading his posts. Let's cut out the bitching and name calling and move on.
[if he insists on exercising his right to write in the third person, we can exercise our right to stop reading his posts. Let's cut out the bitching and name calling and move on.]
I'm getting into this thread at the end because (as I've said before) just because the phone rings doesn't mean you have to answer it, i.e. I haven't been reading the other posts.
There are some here that love a good debate ... that's fine for serious issues that directly relate to transit. So when guys like Larry post something I almost always read it.
I'm a rail buff but by no means an expert, so some times the nit pickers attach my posts, but most times I get a thoughtful correction or additional input which I appreciate because it's educational and that's what this site has done for me EDUCATE.
My last point relates to the Rail Historian saying that he doesn't know any of us personally. Well neither did I a year or so ago.
Now I've made at least two dozen SubTalk friends who I've met at various events face to face. To a man/woman I'ld be happy to have them over to the house for dinner !
So if you don't ENJOY this site or only get pleasure throwing rocks, then maybe you should sign off ?
Mr t__:^) ... smilie so you'll take this in a positive way.
Actually, I don't believe that I insulted you, either intentionally or otherwise. I did ask why you felt the need to refer to yourself in the 3rd person as I find it pretintious. I also asked why in the face of so many people expressing similar annoyance, you persist in doing so.
On the other hand, you do purport to be a rail historian. In the post that I first responded to, you mentioned that a former mayor once operated a subway train. I did not dispute that but did point out that this was by no means unique in NY history. Again, not to offend but to add to the discussion. You have set yourself up for criticism by purporting to be a rail historian when it seems that you have little more than some rudimentary information.
BTW - to answer my own question. Both dates marked the opening of connections between the BMT and IND:
October 30, 1954 was the date that the connection between Church and Ditmas Avenues on the then 'D' line.
December 1, 1995 marked the opening of the 11th St. cut linking the BMT & IND between the 60th St. tunnel and the Queens Blvd. lines.
For the sake of completeness I should have also added November 26, 1967, the date that the Christie Street onnection opened.
You accidentally wrote 1995!!! What about the 1956 connection between the until then BMT Liberty Avenue El and the IND Pitkin Avenue Subway via the brand new Grant Avenue station and the subsequent Rockaway connection. BTW, why did the original 1956-58 service to Far Rock run out to Beach 25 and not all the way to Mott?
The 1955 60th Street tunnel connection (11th St. cut) was qualitatively different from either the Culver or Fulton connections in that it was the first example of actual interdivisional running.
The Culver and Fulton connections completely severed pieces of the BMT and grafted them to the IND. It always puzzled me why a switch was not maintained at Ditmas Avenue between BMT and IND for emergency use--the steelwork was installed but never used.
Jaman: You have touched upon an interesting point. The original LIRR Far Rockaway Terminal was just to the east of the present day IND Far Rockaway Terminal. The stationhouse and tracks were on the surface at first but during the grade crossing elimination in 1941 the tracks were actually on an ascending ramp (going from east to west) to rise to the elevated level. When the TA took over operation they actually cut out a steel section of the elevated ramp and built a new terminal where the present day IND station now stands. While this was going on it was necessary for subway trains to terminate at Beach 25 St. The TA started serving Wavecrest on 6/28/56 but was not extended to Far Rockaway until 1/16/58.
There is a picture on p59 of "Change Trains at Ozone Park" that shows an LIRR trains on the el structure and a subway train on another el structure separated by about 50 feet of open space where there had once been a continuous line.
To say that this was a ludicrious situation would be an understatement. I don't know what municipal jealousies led to the decision but it would have far more sense to have a joint station served by both lines.
The LIRR moved their terminal to the present sight on February 21,1958 and while it is not too far away it is not a convient transfer point or a safe one at night.
I don't know the truth of this next statement but maybe some of the crew familiar with legal matters will. I heard that there was a law that prohibited the NYC BOT from operating outside NYC limits and that is why this was done.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[On the TA operating outside NYC limits and the two Far Rockaway Stations ]
I don't see why the LIRR and TA Far Rockaway stations were physically separated, but since I believe they're both inside the City, I don't believe any law concerning TA operations outside the City would apply.
I was told decades ago by (IIRC) Martin Schachne, the knowledgable railfan and long-time TA employee, that the TA was forbidden to operate outside the City limits, but I've never located legal papers explicitly stating this.
The TA was set up as a state agency specifically to insulate the subway system and the fare from the perennial political arguments and local battles that existed at least from the days of "Red Mike" Hylan.
However, since its mandate was to acquire the properties of the New York City Board of Transporation, its fate and operations were still tied intimately to the City. For example, the City Board of Estimate had to be notified and pass on certain things that the NYCTA might want to do. Also, if any TA property became surplus, it was to pass to the City.
So it can be reasonably surmised that this close association between the TA and the City required that a strict line be drawn on where the TA could operate.
Another thought that occurs to me is that the State did not want the TA to compete with the various companies that provided service outside the City, or between the City and the Suburbs. This included the LIRR (owned by the PRR), New York Central, and a myriad of bus operators.
The mention of the bus operators leads me to another fact that I believe is probably unknown to most people (professional or railfan) these days:
I was also told that the State wanted the City to divest itself of its surface lines, which in 1953 consisted primarily of the former trolley and bus lines of the BMT that were acquired at Unification. IOW, all the bus lines would now be run by private companies and the TA would run the subways only.
The purpose of this divesiture was to reintroduce some competition in New York City transit and prevent the TA from becoming the completely insular bureaucracy many believe it became.
Not only was this not done, but with the sudden City takeover of New York City Omnibus, Fifth Avenue Coach, and Surface Transit in Manhattan and the Bronx, the opposite was accomplished.
This I can trace to law:
The authority, as soon as practicable and not later than July first, nineteen hundred fifty-five, shall prepare a plan for the sale and transfer of omnibus facilities under its jurisdiction to private ownership. -- Public Authorities Law, Title 15, Section 1806, paragraph 1 (Chapter 200, Laws of 1953)
Now whatever do you suppose happened to that law?
Does that mean it's illegal for NYCT buses to run to Green Acres, which is in Nassau County, as they currently do? I guess not.
Wayne
Would it also be illegal for the X17(?) and X31 to run via the NJ Turnpike to Manhattan? When a TA bus terminates at the Bronx/Westchester border, does it make sure that not a single wheel of that bus enters Westchester?
I've heard the TA got some kind of special dispensation to run to Green Acres, since it is just over the border in Nassau County and is a very popular shopping destination for folks in S.E. Queens.
I mean, what would they do otherwise, walk from the border?
Remember that Nassau buses are now run by an MTA agency, LI Bus. If it were still a private operator, they might have demanded that the private operator be allowed to run the buses to the Mall.
As I said in my post, I haven't found the legal cite for TA not operating outside NYC.
It's been a while since I read any of the law on the TA; but, as I recall, the TA is a NYC agency -- not a state agency, like the MTA. More to the point, a likely place to find something saying that it cannot operate outside the City would be in whatever statute or corporate charter specifies the TAs powers. It would not surprise me to learn that there is no such express prohibition, merely a statement granting it the power to do X, Y, and Z "within the City of New York." If so, doing X, Y, or Z outside the City of New York would be what lawyers call "ultra vires." In plain English, beyond its powers.
The NYCTA is a unit of the MTA. The MTA is an umbrella agency that encompasses the Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority (MTA Bridges and Tunnels, TBTA); Metro-Suburban Bus Authority (MTA Long Island Bus, MSBA); Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority (MTA Staten Island Railway, SIR, SIRT, and SIRTOA); Long Island Railroad (MTA Long Island Railroad, LIRR); Metro-North Commuter Railroad (MTA Metro-North Railroad, MNCR); Manhattan and Bronx Surface Transit Operating Authority, (MaBSTOA); New York City Transit Authority (NYCTA) Which have now been split into 2 seperate entities, MTA New York City Bus (MaBSTOA and the surface operations of the TA) and MTA New York City Subway. ALl the MTA names are paper only, as they are still officially tha agencies and authorities.
-Hank
As you point out, each of these entities retain its separate existence. When I researched the laws covering the TA some years ago, they provided that the TA was a city agency. As we all know, the MTA is a state agency. The stautes also made the TA a subsidiary of the MTA. Thus, when you get hit by a bus, last time I checked, you follow a procedure similar to the procedure for suing the city rather than suing in the Court of Claims. Of course, it has been a number of years since I looked all this up. Maybe it's been changed. Certainly, the MTA's PR conceals the legalities, which are not matters of general interest.
While the state exercises control over the TA (the Governor's apointees control the MTA board), for historic reasons the TA is considered a city agency. This has several consequences, most bad for the city.
1) Government data counts TA (and CUNY) workers as "local government" employees, while it count's LIRR, MetroNorth and NJT (and Rugters and SUNY) employees as "state government" employees. That's one reason conservatives can cite that data to claim that NYC has big government, and the rest of the state does not (the opposite is actually true).
2) TA workers are required to live in the city.
3) The state requires the City to contribute local tax dollars to the TA (and MetroNorth and the LIRR). Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and the rest contribute nothing to the commuter railroads -- the state contributes for them, using money collected, in part, in the city. However, I believe the suburban counties contribute to their bus services.
Just a few more of the cazillion little ripoffs the morons of NYC get screwed by.
< Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and the rest contribute nothing to the commuter railroads -- the state contributes for them, using money collected, in part, in the city. However, I believe the suburban counties contribute to their bus services. >
That's ridiculous! The localities like Nassau and Suffolk contribute heavily to the MTA, plus we have the same MTA taxes (like utility and sales tax increments) as the City, but get much less for it.
A City resident's MTA taxes buy a near universal subway and bus system by which you can reach virtually every corner of the City on a reasonable schedules for a low fare.
My MTA taxes effectively buy me a high-priced LIRR ride which takes me to the City. Period. Almost any place else I need to go, I drive or stay home.
Larry, if you're going to relentlessly suburb bash, at least avoid such obvious errors.
Yes, in addition to City of New York payments to the MTA, there is a regional MTA tax that City AND suburban residents and businesses have to pay. One could argue that since more city residents take advantage of mass transit, the suburban share of regional tax is spread among fewer riders, allowing a higher subsidy per rider.
Just so you don't think I'm an anti-suburb zealot, I used exactly that argument at City Planning when we were scrutinizing the MTA and Port Authority budgets. Otherwise, the Mayor would probably be yelling about the MTA as much as he is the Port Authority.
BTW, when you look at all the cars City Residents don't own, compared with the national average, its' clear that mass transit allows a substantial reduction in the cost of living. In the NY suburbs, however, auto ownership is at the national average despite the millions riding the LIRR, MetroNorth, NJT and express buses. When you have than much money, I guess, why not have one car per driver?
< When you [subrubanites] have than much money, I guess, why not have one car per driver?
How much money do you think suburbanites actually have? What do you think the comparative income of working people in Nassau, Suffolk, Manhattan is, for example?
(What do you think the comparative income of people working in Manhattan, Nassau, and Suffolk is?). Ah, but Manhattan is not New York City -- except in funding formulas. Manhattan has the highest per capita income in the country. Income in the rest of the city, added together, is slightly below the national average; income in the suburbs, added together, is substantially higher.
[ OK. Compare the entire City (including the Bronx, one of the poorest counties in income in the state) to Nassau or Suffolk ]
How much higher is "substantially" higher.
I'd have to be in the office for hard #s, but off the top of my head I believe per capita income is $24,000 in the U.S., $22,000 in the outer boroughs, $35,000 in the suburbs --- and $69,000 (#1 county in the U.S.) in Manhattan. You can go to the U.S. Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis website for actual 1997 figures. They have a table of the counties with the 100 highest per capita incomes in the U.S. Most of NY's suburban counties make the list (but not the outer boroughs or Hudson County NJ).
[3) The state requires the City to contribute local tax dollars to the TA (and MetroNorth and the LIRR). Nassau, Suffolk, Westchester and the rest contribute nothing to the commuter railroads -- the state contributes for them, using money collected, in part, in the city.
However, I believe the suburban counties contribute to their bus services. ]
Dear Larry, I think Paul & I have caught you this time. Are you doing this just to see if we're paying attention, or did we realy get 'ya ?
Do you remember the recent NewsDay article about Nassau County Exec. Tom Golotta needing to loan money from the MTA to pay for his portion of the cost of the new dual-mode/double decker LIRR train sets ?
And yes Nassau County does provide a major portion of the money for the LI Bus Co (that's why they exhibit some indepandance regarding things the TA thinks that they follow their lead on automatically).
Mr t__:^)
Let me nit pick just a little: The NYC subway/bus system no longer has any AUTHORITY, in their name that is. Officially they're NYCT.
Mr t__:^)
I'll have to nitpick back at ya, Thurston.
It's still NYCTA. NYCT is a "friendly" name, without legal significance. The TA still has to contract as "New York City Transit Authority."
The correspondence I (our company) receives from 130 Livingston Plaza says "New York City Transit" period ... I'm looking at one that is over a year old, includes the stylized MTA logo and Larry Reuter's name on it as the Pres. Looks pritty official to me.
Mr t__:^)
The MTA calls names such as New York City Transit, Station Island Railway, etc. "popular" names. In business we would call these names "DBAs"--"Doing Business As." It's like the trucks say "FedEx" but you're dealing with the Federal Express Company.
From The MTA Website:
New York City Transit (NYCT)
Staten Island Railway (SIR)
Long Island Rail Road (LIRR)
Metro-North Railroad (MNR)
Bridges and Tunnels (B&T)
In 1993 the MTA board approved a new service identity program for the MTA family of agencies. It uses the above popular names to make clear to our customers that the various MTA affiliates and subsidiaries constitute an integrated regional transportation network. However, for all procurement documents and official transactions, the agencies retain their legal names: New York City Transit Authority, Staten Island Rapid Transit Operating Authority, the Long Island Rail Road Company, Metro-North Commuter Railroad Company and Triborough Bridge and Tunnel Authority.
The emphasis is mine.
Actually, Federal Express Corp. did in fact change its legal name to FedEx® a few years ago.
The Seashore Trolley Museum is also a dba; our legal name is the New England Electric Railway Historical Society, Inc.
Hmmm....
FedEx's web site copyrights still say:
© 1995-1999. Federal Express Corporation.
Does the right hand not know what the left is doing?
That wouldn't be unusual!
Other dba's are interesting. Look at the license info on sidewalk food vendors in midtown. You might see something like, "Mustapha al-Farouk Mid-east Provisions" dba "Bernie's Kosher Hot Dog Stand"
Joe's Alcohol, d/b/a Joe's Tavern and Restaurant.
That's basically it.
-Hank
What is interesting here is that apparently NYC started going this way, i.e. in the 30's the La Guardia admin. created four bus zones in Queens for "private" companies to replace the trolley lines, incl. BRT/Brooklyn City RR.
Triboro, Green, Jamnaica and Queens Surface (Queens & Steinway) remain today. But North Shore Bus & Fifth Ave Coach routes went to NYCT when they folded. Someone also posted here that the city had the opportunity to take over what is now MaBSTOA but they declined.
Mr t__:^)
We can argue FACO's (Fifth Ave Coach) thinking when it faced down the City over fare and labor issues, but FACO did not fold, per se, it was seized.
Paul, I didn't know that, thanks for the additional detail !
I just bought a book that enlighted me about Brooklyn City RR vs. BRT.
Apparently BCRR and Brooklyn Queens & Suburban RxR continued to operate trolley lines in Queens for some time after BRT became BMT and went it's own way.
Question: These names seem to run togather and are all so similar,
who was Brooklyn & Queens Transit Co, i.e. the owner of PCC 1001. I thought they became part of BRT, but now I'm getting more confused as I start reading this book by Vincent F. Seyfried (50's vintage).
Mr t__:^)
What was the book? If it's Seyfried book on BRT trolley lines in Queens County, it's bound to be good.
When the BRT went bankrupt after the Malbone St. wreck, it revived some of the companies which had been absorbed into the BRT. Most prominent of these was the Brooklyn City RR, which resumed operating (and purchasing) trolleys and trolley lines on its own account. This was more than a paper breakup--people had to pay two fares where lines of one company met lines of another where both lines had previously been BRT.
This continued even after the BRT became the BMT in 1923. Five years later, in 1928, all (AFAIK) the former BRT, BCRR, etc. trolleys were operated by the B&QT, which became the BMT's trolley operator.
I know it's more than a little confusing and I've never explored all the little permutations, but though everything ended up under the BMT banner (the 1936 PCC brochure said "BMT Lines Presents Modern Streetcars"--not B&QT), the BMT itself never technically operated anything. The rapid transit part of the BMT was operated by the New York Rapid Transit Corporation. The trolleys were B&QT.
Earlier, under the BRT, the subways were operated by the New York Municipal Railway Corp., the elevateds by the New York Consolidated RR, or not much earlier by other operating companies, such as the Brooklyn Heights Railroad, etc.
Interestingly, the BMT name long survived long after the BMT. Brooklyn bus transfers said "BMT Bus Division" on at least some routes into the '60s.
[What was the book? If it's Seyfried book on BRT trolley lines in Queens County, it's bound to be good.]
That's the one. A SubTalker said Shoreline @ Branford might have a couple copies of the re-issue 50's publ. left. I found one, but don't know if it was their last copy.
P.S. Paul, thanks for the addl. insite on BRT/BCRR/B-Q&S vs. B&QT.
Mr t__:^)
Steve wants to know what significant and related subway events took place on the following dates.
1) October 30, 1954
2) December 1, 1955
A true rail historian will have no problem with that question.
(Steve also wants to know why you want to annoy so many people.)
If you mean annoy people via his/her talking in the third person, I think it kind of *kitschy*.
It irritated the hell outta me with Bob "It's takes a lot of courage to talk about impotence" Dole.
If s/he provided a name at least but still wanted to use the third person as a handle like I do or Wayne-Mr. Slant40, I don't think that's so bad.
You are not speaking in the 3rd person. Of course the person posting as the Rail Historian might not be either. He may just be relaying messages for the real Rail Historian. As for 'annoying', we all have our own levels of tollerance, I suppose.
You mean you can't figure out who Rail Historian is?
I think it's pretty obvious, but I'm not going to blow
anyone's cover if that's how they want to play it.
I dunno steve, but after reading a few of his posted, I understand where you're comming from. Geeze, even *I* am not that annoying :)
Today I saw a news report about a bridge in West Philly.
The problem is that the bridge is falling apart(sound
familiar?).
Why are SEPTA and Amtrak involved? The bridge carries
unused trolley tracks(along 40th Street) over Amtrak's
Keystone line and SEPTA's R5 Downingtown line(really it's
all Amtrak property).
Residents of the area(which is near Girard Avenue-former
home of the 15 trolley) want the bridge fixed because of
holes big enough for one to put a foot through. They're
worried that if something isn't done, a tragedy could
occur.
The city says it'l fix the bridge, but SEPTA needs to take
rsponsibility because of the tracks. SEPTA says Amtrak
should take care of the bridge(though I can't imagine
why).
The city's approach, we'll patch it up and begin the real repairs in 2 years. This has Manny B written all over it(not because there are tracks involved:))
This is one of those classic bureaucratic nightmares. Here are the facts:
The trolley tracks on 40th Street are part of the connection between Girard Ave and the subway-surface system. They get used by special moves and pull-ins and pull-outs when the Holiday Trolley is operating. Otherwise, they are little used.
The bridge was built by the Penna RR. The Pennsy's Main Line to Harrisburg crosses under the street here. Way back when the RR's wanted to grade separate for safety (and cities were encouraging the RR's to get out of their streets), the RR's had lots of money and built many bridges like this one. The city and RR would then enter into agreements on bridge ownership, maintenance, etc. It was often easiest for the RR to build, own and maintain the bridge.
Now travel 40 years into the future. The RR's are bankrupt. They still own these bridges. They defer maintenance since, if the bridge falls apart, usually the effect on RR operations will be minimal (unless the bridge falls on the tracks, in which case the RR clears off the wreckage and has one fewer bridge to worry about). The RR goes to the local Public Utility Commission and asks that the responsibility for these bridges be placed on the local government. The government, not much better off financially, doesn't want the bridges either. Now you have the classic "orphan bridge". Phila is loaded with them.
When Conrail and Amtrak came along, the first thing they did was to deny old agreements which placed such bridges on their maintenance lists. They were usually successful in doing this as the feds were trying to make these RR's financially viable and the removal of roadway bridge responsibility, where costs were high and there was next to no chance of revenue, helped greatly here. The new RR's believed (and often were right) that, if they ignored these bridges, the local populance, which would assume that the city owned the bridge, would pressure the city to fix it. Politicians would fight for this also to win votes.
Not a pretty story, is it?
Quick question.
Are the Penna RR tracks the ones now owned by Amtrak, or are they the trolley tracks? In other words, did the Penna RR run tracks accoss the bridge they built/owned/maintained, or did the RR build the bridge across the mainline for the city to use?
I believe they are the current Amtrak lines to Harrisburg. The trolley tracks on the bridge belong to SEPTA.
The 40th Street bridge is at the west end of the extremity of Zoo junction. Tracks which connected directly between the Main Line and the Northeast Corridor toward New York split/join here (depending on which way you're going). This was used by many passenger trains between NYC and Chicago which bypassed 30th Street Station. It is little used today, mainly by Amtrak maintenance and deadhead moves.
I believe PRR built the bridge as part of its program to grade separate the busier lines. Phila itself mandated much of this separation, which is noticable to this day in the small number of grade crossings of busy lines. The trolley tracks on the bridge are SEPTA's.
Thanks; I appreciate the clarification. It is indeed an interesting subject. :-)
Brandon
While researching an answer to Karl's question I came accross some information about the IRT in World War II that some might find interesting. It is from the Cunningham/DeHart History of the IRT.
"Most out of service el cars were scrapped for metal for the war effort.90 were sold to Oakland CA to transport Navy Yard workers. In early 1943 the last two Manhattan steam locomotives were scrapped on February 9.(#137 and 297)The 2 Avenue El closed from Queensboro Plaza to Chatham Square on 6/12/42. 200 people rode the last train that left South Ferry at 941PM.The el yielded 29,400 tons of scrap steel.
On February 26,1944 a practicing Naval battery's anti-aircraft fire struck the 59 Street Powerhouse.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Speaking of the war effort, is it true that most of the old New York Railways streetcar trackage in Manhattan was ripped out for that purpose? All of those streetcar lines ended operation in 1936.
Steve: I really couldn't say but they did send the Green Hornet off too war and she never came back.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm told that the MTA cubicle jockeys just made the elevator operator at 181st take down all the pictures that were plastered in the elevator, mostly of pets like dogs and cats.
The elevator operator is something of a local legend and had decorated the elevator and cleaned it himself. The MTA, in a relentless push for standardization (note how quickly old signs have disappeared of late) made him take down all the pics.
Hey, you try going up and down for 8 hours in a windowless elevator with nothing to look at but occasionally sour faces. I'd go crazy. They even let convicts decorate their prison cells, but not MTA elevator operators.
www.forgotten-ny.com
It's at 190 Street-Overlook Terrace on the IND. They were put back. According to the newspaper clipping now posted there, some old geezers didn't like the pictures there and asked the MTA to take them down. It was written in a local paper (it also got into the Times) and they were very critical those idiots that wanted the pictures down.
Glad to see sanity prevails.
Right. We've got two decorated elevators up here in Washington Heights. First there was the 181 St. guy who's done up his car in jazz legends theme with some appropriate holiday accents as required. Then came the 190 St. guy who chose the local pet theme.
I've been riding buses lately, but I'll try to take a recon mission to see what each is up to.
--Mike
That's a little much. What in the world attracted to the TA to pick on this guy anyway. Did someone complain?
Read my response to his message for the info, I was there last June
Ah, the all-important "geezer" factor.
Hey, I wasn't insulting old people, if this people were in their 20s or 40s or teens I would have used a different word but it would have been no more or less insulting. I didn't want to insult others.
I didn't take any insult. I thought it was funny.
I'm working on geezerdom, myself. Pretty soon I'll be telling stories about how gas was 29 cents a gallon, they washed your windshield, gve you free dishes, and said "thank you" too.
I'll call young people "sonny" and "young whippersnapper." You'll see.
OK, sonny? ;-)
Free dishes at gas stations? Last summer I got a free glass at a Sunoco station. Wasn't 29 cents a gallon, though.
Free dishes at gas stations, free towels in your box of laundry detergent (real nice ones in Oxydol or Dash, too), Captain Marvel decoder rings in your Cracker Jack, and S&H green stamps (or Triple-S blue, Plaid, or Gold Bond) with everything everywhere. And Mister Ed the Talking Horse on TV (right after The Lone Ranger). The good old days!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
But A/C hadn't been invented yet -- except in movie theaters.
Sure it had - it just wasn't very common. My parents installed central air in our house in the late '50s so that Mother wouldn't have to have her pianos tuned every month during the summer (she performed for many years and when she wasn't travelling to a concert or performing she was rehearsing, and she couldn't stand a piano that was even slightly out of tune - still can't). For them, it was a business decision as much as one of personal comfort, but they put it in as soon as my father was sure it would be reliable enough to justify the investment. I spent my summers with my grandparents on the farm, however, so I didn't ever really benefit from it myself.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Were you also the only kid in town with a color TV?
No, my parents did not get one until 1973. We didn't watch much - still don't. They still have that set, plus the original round-screen black-and-white they bought in 1954. I'll confess to having more modern units - a 20" in our bedroom and a new 27" set in the living room in our New Jersey house and a 20" set in our North Carolina house. But they mainly see use for the news, the History Channel, train/trolley videos, and the occasional Braves game.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the good old days. R-10s on the A, among other things, just to stay on topic. I remember the glasses and steak knives and other giveaway items at gas stations. There was a Tulsa station on Rt. 23 in Jersey which sold regular at 29.9 cents per gallon in 1967. Got a rubber ball once in a box of Tide and took to show-and-tell in kindergarten. Dennis the Menace was also on Sundays. Hi, Mr. Wilson!
FEI, I am the person a.k.a. 'Intentionally Left Blank'
-Hank
I figured as much when your name suddenly disappeared from the list:)
It's still there, it depends on where I'm posting from. I don't want to leave a cookie with my name on it on a shared computer.
-Hank
I was looking through the Illustrated Subway Car Roster here at www.nycsubway.org and came across a couple interesting shots. Both were of R40 4200 in Coney Island Yard. One was taken (according to the caption date) in 5/71 and the front end is wrecked massively. The other shot (I took) in 8/79, there's 4200 again with massive front end collision damage.
Yet the damge in the two photos, eight years apart, looks different.
Was 4200 in TWO major wrecks? Sheesh....
They removed some of #4200's stainless steel skin to graft onto the busted nose and "A" end of R40M #4501, who blackened her left eye, ruined her nice new sign and broke her bonnet while pushing R16 #6304 into a curtain wall on May 20, 1970 just outside of Roosevelt Avenue.
Wayne
In the NY Post Friday August 6, page 4, The TA has promoted the head of a scandal-scarred unit - who investigators charge was asleep at the switch while employees skipped out of work early - as a powerful new Vice President. Chief Electrical Officer Gerald Provenzano will be the new VP overseeing the new Department of Telecommunications and Information which includes operating the public-address system serving riders. The promotion takes place on Wednesday September 1.
After reading the article your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Im sure a nice salary raise comes with the new position. Why should we be surprised. Its the same story.... Promote incompetance and the problem in that dept. goes away.
Last week I might have disagreed but I still can not believe what I heard yesterday. I was one of 18 people who recently interviewed for a job. The promotion would have meant 10% but it was not really where I wanted to be, but I interviewed anyway.
I didn't get the job! Neither did any of the other 17 who interviewed. The job went to one of the 3 interviewers. Does this sound like a conflict of interest to anyone else?
[ I didn't get the job! Neither did any of the other 17 who interviewed.
The job went to one of the 3 interviewers. Does this sound like a
conflict of interest to anyone else? ]
What conflict? Seriously, though, It's one thing to give out promotions based on who you know, favors, etc.
It's another to waste a dozen and a half people's time and energy for a promotion they can't possibly get.
Yes I agree, but they have to go through the motions of the interview. Then they can say we really didnt find anyone with just the "right qualifications" we were looking for. Its a great excuse to use.
This getting off-topic, but symphony orchestras used to do that, too. A retiring musician would hand-pick a student to succeed him, but auditions would be held anyway, with everyone on the inside knowing the outcome already.
Then you could say, I've heard of going through the movements, but this is ridiculous.
But as a public agency, I thought civil service rules were supposed to apply here to prevent forms or favortism/nepotism. At least, that's what the good government people said back in the 1930s when the patronage system was pushed aside in favor of the civil service form of government.
And, of course, I also believe in the tooth fairy...
Management is NOT civil service.
Still off-topic, but..
You don't see that sort of thing anymore nowadays. Orchestra auditions are handled pretty fairly; closed auditions are a thing of the past. One thing is certain: it's more competitive than it's ever been. Vic Firth of the Boston Symphony says that when he auditioned in 1952, he was selected from 12 candidates. Today, you'd have several hundred people show up.
Why are you surprised? You work for them. You should know the nature of those cynical, machiavelian, megolomaniacal, egotistical, ingrates by now.
Like I said, Satan runs the TA.
Maybe this guy was promoted to the level of incompetence to begin with. Or perhaps he had the right connections...
Steve B, I'll bet he probably had both things going for him...I am going to finish the discussion on this topic and look for others..Thanks for the feedback..
Im sure a nice salary raise comes with the new position. Why should we be surprised. Its the same story.... Promote incompetance and the problem in that dept. goes away.
I have an article for you in today's Brooklyn Daily Eagle about Bernard Nadrich a 33 year employee with the original Nathan's. His wife also worked for Nathan's at their corporate offices on Long Island (where?).
They are Flatbushites retiring down to Port St. Lucie Florida.
Next time we get together I'll bring a copy of two with me.
Doug aka BMTman
David
Thank you for the updated pictures on the 3 line. I was going to ask if anybody venture out there recently to take pictures. The pictures on the line by line version was old. I also notice that in one pictures, you got a part of my block. :):) I have pics that I have taken in front of my house and from inside of my house. These pics consist of 3 and L crossing each other at the same time... I even got a pic of a R62a 5 train heading to Utica to begin it evening rush hour run......... If you would like to post them along with yours just email me at the above address........ Once again thanks.
3 Train: 7 Ave. Express and Eastern Pkwy/Livonia Av Local
3TM
Hey, does anyone know why there is no transfer in East New York between the 3 train and the L train? I heard it was because someone stole the staircase connecting the two. Is vthere any truth to that?
As far as I know, there is no truth to that. I do not think there was ever a free passenger transfer between the 3 and L.........
As far as I know there was NEVER any free transfer between the two lines. Part of that may have been due to the small amount of riders who needed to make transfers to/from the L or the 3. Since the L goes into Manhattan (along 14th St.) alot of L train riders see no point in transfering to the #3 particularly if their destination is the city; ditto for New Lots riders.
And don't forget, all this talk of transfering at Livonia Ave. is only due to the Willy B. closure and the extra loads it is causing on the Canarsie line.
Doug aka BMTman
If you had your saya nd had one wish, what improvements would you like to see or additions made to the R-32 fleet... Remember, the Genie has granted you only one wish......
Easy. Reverse the F/S modifications!
As Nixon used to say, "I'm glad you asked that question."
Given a choice between restoring the good old route and destination signs on the bulkheads and bringing back those trademark blue doors, I would go with the former.
Of course my wish would be to reverse the field shunt mods, but since I know that can't be done due to current TA policy (and it would make the cars incompatible with others in the fleet; they'd get too close to their leaders and too far from their followers), I'll go with:
Easy to Read
Route & Destination
Signs!
Observation: So far, everyone pretty much has indicated that, with the exception of A/C, we all want them to go back to the way they were before GOH!
My alternate wish, in lieu of field shunting, however, would be some nice, comfy padded seats.
Well, I enjoy the air-conditioning units they recieved after GOH. Otherwise, I agree. I liked those blue doors.
Who needs padded seats? The seats on the R-32 (and R-38, R-42, and Redbirds) are by far the most comfortable in the system.
Padded seats would be a wonderful addition, I sometimes pay $1.50 to take the express bus just to get them. R-42 seats are pretty uncomfortable, they're lower than the others. The most comfortable modern seats are the ones on the R-44-68 cars. The worst are on either the 110A or the 40.
Put them back on the Manhattan Bridge/Bway Express
I think that (this is all one request) the ribbing should be removed on the sides, except for a section in the middle, The small sectioned windows should be replaced with larger european style "picture" windows, the side signs should be changed to be much wider and about 1/3 as tall, the permanently-coupled end should get a narrower storm door opening, with a notch for the handle, and most importantly, the whole front should be replaced with a sleek, elegant wedge design, with a _really big_ end sign route designation.
Then they'd be almost perfect.
In other words, you'd like to see them reincarnated as slant R-40s.
2 things:
Bring back those bluish-teal-aqua seats. The dark grey ones are kinda bland.
Get rid of those tiny digital route indicaters. Bring bacl the old manual, hand cranked ones. There were infinatly more readable.
I'd like to see a 800 car "addition" to the R-32 fleet :)
Hmmm, and which cars would you like to see those 800 replace?
THE R-68s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
But I LIKE the R-68's!!!
They suck, the R-68A is much better. Just like the R-46 is better that the R-44.
The worst car in the entire subway is:
R-33 Single
I hope they're all put into one corner of the yard one night and mysteriously catch fire.
The only thing wrong with the R68 is that the operators don't like their sluggish performance. No reason to scrap hundreds of cars that are only 12 years old.
Your "handle is under construction". What does that mean? Why don't you call yourself The Rail Historian like me? Just trying to help.
It means I haven't decided on a name yet.
With all due respect, let me put it this way: if the R-68s were faster, with field shunting restored, and turned around so that the half cab faced outward thereby offering a nice railfan view, I just might be swayed.
Maybe I should have said the R-44s instead. The R-46s are OK.
Heh, but what would we call "Le S@&tcan" then? :)
AND THE R44s!!!
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
YES YES YES (aside from going FORWARD to legible signage, FS, and A/C) another many hundred would be super. And to answer the other--not replace Augment. More servicable cars more trains in service. Besides, given the record so far just cloning them would be money better spent.
Too bad Budd is no longer in business.
If they were, maybe they could've overhauled the Almond Joys and we'd still have them.
Why does the average railfan so resistant to change?
I had my brain deactivated when I posted the above message ignore it and read this instead:
Why IS the average railfan so resistant to change?
I don't know what other people would say, but new usually means "not as good".
Not necessarily subway cars, but anything.
When the M-4's first arrived in Philadelphia, they always had brake, door or sign problems. The Almond Joys were still running then and even though you'd find cars with doors that won't open, at least they never overshot platforms.
Today's technology is a great thing. But when you compare it to what was modern 40 years ago, you see that with today's innovations there's always more stuff that can go wrong and it'll usually hold you up longer because it takes loger to fix.
But those M-4 problems have been fixed, right? If nobody ever tries to innovate, the world will go nowhere. Glitches on startup are just the small price to pay for progress. With better offsite testing, they wouldn't be as common.
I admit, I've only had one or two problems in riding them
in about four months. They've been worked and hopefully by the time the Almond Joys are really gone, we'll
have a quality feet of railcars ready to move the masses-for another 40 years.
Because we treasure that which pleases us, and we hate to lose it. To wit, the 1990 loss of perfectly good R10s was an absolutely VILE act. Ditto for the D-Types in 1964 and Multi-Sectionals in 1961. The R30s should have received a better overhaul than they did. I would prefer to see the R38s and R40s live on well into their dotage (as long as they are maintained properly) than to see them go off to scrap while still usable. Some of us do warm up to the new (witness the large number of R46 fans out there), but for many of us it is slow progress. I still haven't become fond of the R68s. The R68As - I like them ONLY if they have black floors. And losing the railfan window is a very sore blow to many of us. The R142 will have to be a very special car to sell me on it. Give me a Redbird any day, the older and mungier the better.
Wayne
What makes the pending demise of the Redbirds bad is if you go by the listings of reliability of service and maintenance, the all-Redbird No. 7 line is always at or near the top. But due to rusting (probably exaserbated by the repeated anti-graffiti washes since the late 70s) and in part to the lack of AC on the R-33 singles, those trains will be only a memory in a few years. And some of the early reports on the R-142's wiring problems haven't been encouraging.
Hey, I wasn't happy when the Giants got rid of Phil Simms after the 1993 season because they decided his cost outweighed his usefulness. Hopefully, the R-142s won't be to the MTA what the recent run of QBs has been to the Giants.
The anti graffiti wash didn't last for too long. The problem was the disposal of the acid into the sewer system. That is why the CIYD car wash is vastly over-engineered. Graffiti is removed by hand the old fashioned way: with elbow grease, even on the exterior.
BUZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
Wrong answer - about the carwash that is. Every NYCT carwash facility that I know about has a neutralizer system to treat the run-off before it goes where-ever. No untreated wash water is pumped into the NYC sewer system.
I stand corrected on the graffiti wash, but my general point was the TA for years just let the R-1/9s get dirty, to the point the "City of New York' logo disappeared. But they could get away with it, because dirt wasn't as offensive and annyoing as the spray paint, which blotted out windows, signs, etc.
Had the first R series cars, the High Vs, Low Vs, triplexes and standards been subjected to the constant washing the current cars have undergone in the past 20 years, they're lifespans probably would have been shortened also by rust the way the Redbirds have.
Good lord I hope not. I would hate to see the R142's become the "Dave Brown" cars of the MTA. Slow, and never seems to know where it has to go ...
Then again, Dan Reeves was Mr. Conservative. He was like that in Denver, too.
Let's hope the R-142s won't be clones of the R-44s.
Here, here. I would have loved to have seen the R-10s retained, and put back on the A where they belonged, but they would have needed some serious wheel turning or attention to whatever it was that was causing some of them to be so painfully loud.
While IMHO it was a mortal sin to have retired the Triplexes so prematurely, I read the Multis were having problems by the time they left the scene. Sometimes they just plain didn't want to stop!
Putting the R-16s out of their misery is one thing. Scrapping equipment which is still running fine is another.
Because they don't make 'em like they used to.
--Mark
Improvements to the R-32 fleet? Increase its size. Bump out the R-44, R-46, and R-68(A).
Keep the R-46. Bump the other two.
I won't ask for things that really should be fleet-wide, like
increasing the brake rates and making all the ECR relays have a
little accident.....so
Marker Lights!
I agree with Jeff. But:
PUT A GODDAMNED CAB SEAT ON THE #2 END!!!!!
YOU try and do 4 trips on the E standing all day!!
How about something that could ACTUALLY happen...AC propulsion/regenerative braking!
David
Bigger flipdot signs with LED's (red-orange-amber-yellow-green), plus blacklight in the flourescent tube position for blue (8th Av.). This would be offcentered to the left, and on the right would be a digital destination sign, so it would be just like the original sign positions, but digital. The side signs would use the new type LCD used on Peter Pan, NJT (yellow) or Grand Central Terminal boards (white). The letters on these resemble the original rllsigns.
I am posting this without reading the long list of subsequent posts, so I can get my 2¢ in.
PLEASE, PLEASE do something, ANYTHING about those miserable bulkhead signs, which are utterly worthless, as I have mentioned before.
Also: Wish #2: Put in the backlit signs and curly bars like the R32GE and the R38.
Wish #3: The new floors should be black or dark grey linoleum, with a pearlescent pattern, like R68A #5057 and #5059.
I will now return to read the subsequent posts.
Wayne
If the side signs are going to be backlit once again, use green lights as was the case when the R-32s were new. I can still see "57th St." or "Coney Island" illuminated in green.
From a guy who operates the cars every day, I can't give just one! The flip dots just gotta go! Can a sign box ala R40, 42 et al.,. be put to the left of the storm door? If not a small sign box where the "dots" are now, controlled by the same dial type in the cab?....... Digital side signs.......BLUE PAINT: exterior blue door panels and storm doors will make the cars look great. Blue passenger seats too! But I'm sure MTA won't go for that!........An extra vent for air conditioning in the cab. Cabs too hot in summer with cab door closed.......WABCO to replace NYAB, but keep the phase II Master Controller...... New air conditioning systems where needed. The same cars are failing over & over & over (3411, 3812, I can go on!)........R32's assigned to whichever line I work!!!
Keep them off the F!!
You must be an R-46 fan. Hey, nothing wrong with that.
I know that I didn't put it in the original post but I was asking about R-32 Phase I cars so the WABCO replacing NYAB is not an issue. The Phase II master controller (Westinghouse) has been a problem and will likely go.
FIX the dead motors and do something about the conductors sash windows.They tend to get stuck or fall apart. Give the T/O's a break, get some air in thier cabs.
Considering relatively good reliability and flexibility - these cars may show up on a wide variety of lines.
A major weakness in this is that their signage stinks! So bring back the bulkhead signs as best possible option and get rid of digital signage.
If we can't do that - then at the very least, get the digital signage in bright white or light blue - any color other than yellow.
The R-110A digital ends signs are pretty good. They change color for their line.
The damn front signs you can't see
--Mark
WANTED: Any updates on this project; this includes train start up dates and related stuff. Thanks.
It seems like the new pick, and therefor train service is going to start on Aug 29. If not that weekend at the very latest by Labor Day, since we have to repick jobs on the new schedule.
8/29? Yipeee! No more treks out to Jamaica to ride that massive mugger mover called the E train in the morning. Kudos to the construction company who was able to finish the project so quickly. Perhaps they should take over the Manhattan Bridge repairs. Maybe we'll have 4 track operation by Christmas (LOL)
Me thinks it's not that the construction will be finished early, but that they built a lot of time into the construction schedule to allow for delays. So many projects in this city go over their posted schedule, they figure, 'Hey, if will tell them it'll take 10% longer than our worst-case, we'll finish early, and the people will rejoice!'
And I'm sure the fact that we have had VERY little rainfall since the start of the project helps.
-Hank
August 29th?
Pardon the language but, DAMN!
Does this beat any TA construction projects times?
Sure, they did it fast. Incentives will do that. I think all these incentives plans are a _great_ thing for transit projects -- that means roads and bridges as well as mass transit.
Every time a project like this goes well, the possibility of a major improvement (i.e. 2nd ave) inches closer to being possible. If the economy cools off, though, forget about it.
Does this also mean a certain weekend express train will cease to exist(or so I've heard)?
I've been told that blue>C service will continue to operate
in Brooklyn on the weekends, thus assuring that
A weekend express service should continue.
How did you get the A blue like that? I would like to know please post on Subtalk. Thank you..........
It's HTML, you can read an HTML FAQ. You do it by: <FONT COLOR=blue> then follow with the text you want blueified, then finish with </FONT> you can replace blue with any color you wish. When typing into Subtalk, please use GOLD for the Broadway trains, Yellow is illegible with a white background. Whenever using HTML, please use the Preview button before posting to make sure it comes out right.
wow it works
From the previous experience with the 63st tunnel line, they may not actually finish it when the pick starts. I think the bridge will open shortly after Labor Day, however.
-Hank
Bridge opening after Labor Day!!!!!!!! What about the FS?
If that's the case, then I think it's time for a "Welcome Back to the Willy B" fantrip!
Bob,
My thoughts exactly! I hope I can be in town for the great day. Our friend Bill From Maspeth promised to let us know when he finds out the exact schedule.
That may be a problem. I never expected it to reopen before Labor Day! But one of the J line conductors found out from a dispatcher in the "Crew Office" that the new pick goes in on 8/29 with the bridge reopening before the AM rush Monday 8/30. Also, one of the motormen found out the same information from "the pick man" at Parsons/Archer. A pick has to commence this Monday to pick Labor Day. That holiday assignment was already picked by everybody for this current bridge closed pick, and when we started picking for the pick with the bridge reopened, NYCT never thought the bridge would be ready BEFORE Labor Day! I will be on vacation for 2 weeks and out of town as of Sun 8/15. I will return to work when the new pick starts. So unfortunately, I will not be able to examine the transitional schedule for the bridge reopening. I would imagine the first passenger train will roll sometime during the midnite hours of Monday 8/30. So it would be difficult for any of us to be on it since that would be a work day. Now if it were to reopen Sat. nite/Sun. morning, then a fan trip may be feasible. Hopefully, some other SubTalker will be able to get the information as to the time the first train is scheduled to cross.
Later this month, I have to go from DC to midtown NYC, so I've decided to forgo my usual USAirways Shuttle ride and take the Metroliner. For the past week, I've been trying to use reservations.amtrak.com, the Web-based schedule & reservation site for AMTRAK. When you click on the link from the AMTRAK home page, it just sits there. And Sits There. AND SITS THERE. Any time of the day, for days on end.
So today I went down to Boston South Station to pick up my ticket. The agent told me that AMTRAK is upgrading their system to be Y2K compliant, and thus it's unavailable.
Hey AMTRAK -- how about putting up a simple message instead of having an unusable link? You tout AMTRAK's new customer service, and this would be a great start!
I tried it after reading this post. If you're talking about the link at the top of their homepage, I was able to get through without delay.
But I've found ,Amtrak's web site to be flakey too. Their phone sechdule / pricing system is pretty bad too.
BTW - Todd - I'm CERTAIN of it this time - you *can* get LIRR schedules at south station. Saw them behind the info desk counter all the way over by the wall where that sculpture made out of train couplers is...
I'm CERTAIN of it this time - you *can* get LIRR schedules at south station
A friend of mine mentioned to me several months ago that he saw LIRR schedules there. Is it possible to get Metro-North or NJT schedules too??
The agent told me that AMTRAK is upgrading their system to be Y2K compliant, and thus it's unavailable.
huh? I've been using the site on and off over the last 2 weeks and haven't had any problems (although the tickets I bought have yet to arrive in the mail, so maybe I shouldn't be saying anything yet...). Even better, the web site finally lets me enter my NARP number to get the 10% NARP discount, and it's also finally possible to check fares (but not buy tickets) without registering for a login.
Could be a case of someone using y2k as a catch-all excuse for all computer problems, whether y2k-related or not.
David, what's a NARP?
The agent told me that the 10% AAA discount is not available on Metroliners :($
Todd,
NARP stands for National Association of Railroad Passengers.
Also, the 10% AAA discount is available on weekend Metroliners only. Weekday Metroliners are not applied.
Chaohwa
Lately, to me the 7 train has gotta be the worst subway line in the system. They use these old, rickety trains.
But that is just the beginning. I waited till 8pm to take it east. Got on, as usual the train was stuffed. Then people behind me boarding pushed me in, even though I could not really get much more into the train. I almost got shoved to the floor.
Riders on the 7 are very rude. They often push their way into the train. It's bad enough the A/C sucks. It's bad enough there is nothing to hold onto. Then you got these riders who just don't care. They will trample you just to get into the damn train.
Funny thing is, I've been on the crowded Lexington avenue line at the rush (4,5,6). I've also been on the E/F, N, B and Q trains as well as 1 and 9. Nothing tops the 7 as the worst train. And now it's short, 10 cars instead of 11.
Personally I like BMT/IND cars much better than IRT. I think the A/C is better, and the wider design allows for more room for standees.
IRT lines are antiquated, in my opinion with their narrower design. Also trains on IND and BMT have a smoother ride.
Sorry, but I'm not a fan of redbirds.
My favorite trains are the anything R-40 and after, basically most of the silver colored trains. Though the R-68 have an IRT design, I dont like IRT design as much.
Like the stations on the E, like Sutphin, Van Wick, and Jamaica center. Nice flourescent tunnel lighting too.
I know a lot of people may not agree, but I think trains of the BMT and IND divisions are so much nicer than IRT. Sorry but that's how I feel!
Also for you LIRR complainers, I've been coming across quite a few hot cars in the subway also! Whenever the car appears empty, it's a good bet it's a hot one.
During the time the IRT was built, people were much smaller than they are today. As time went on, other subway systems(some in NYC and elsewhere) made rolling stock bigger to allow more people and for passenger room and comfort. At the time, the IRT was probably fine for the people using it.
But through the years, you'll notice how Division B(BMT/IND) has been getting more attention(station renovations, line extensions, new rolling stock) than Division A(IRT).
That's my take.
People were't THAT much smaller in the early part of this century. The truth is, the tunnels were purposely made smaller to discourage either freight use, or a takeover by the NY Central, depending on which story you would like to believe. And even at 11 cars, an IRT train is still shorter than a 10-car BMT train by 50' or so.
-Hank
[During the time the IRT was built, people were much smaller than they are today. As time went on, other subway systems(some in NYC and elsewhere) made rolling stock bigger to allow more people and for passenger room and comfort. At the time, the IRT was probably fine for the people using it.]
Actually, New Yorkers in 1904 (or 1954, for that matter) probably were on average larger than New Yorkers today, due to the recent influx of generally small-statured Asian and Latin American immigrants.
Part of the problem is in the nature of the line. You could put R-62s, R-142s or whatever on there, and the Flushing line would still be crowded.
As for the AC, the retrofits aren't as efficiant as the more built-in models the BMT and IND have, but as an earlier thread noted, the 7 spends about two-thirds of its trip above ground, where the sun helps make the AC less efficant.
On the positive side, thanks to the R-44 and R-68, the subway cars in the A and B divisions have taken on the attributes of NFL running backs -- you've got your small, quick scatback trains on the IRT lines, and your big slow lumbering fullbacks on the BMT and IND express runs. (The R-32s, 38s and R-40s being the Terrell Davis compromise between speed and size).
As for new construction, most of it is either currently on the IND (63rd St.) or proposed for IND extensions (The southeast Queens and Second Ave. lines), though if Rudy has his way, the 7 extension to Javits Center/Steinbrenner Stadium will be the next major project. Outside of extending the 7 east in Queens, the other IRT lines really don't have anyplace to expand, except for south central Brooklyn on the Nostrand Ave. line.
While it would still be crowded, the ride would no doubt be easier in a BMT/IND type car (div B) than a narrower IRT (div A) one.
And it's not just the crowds but the people. The 7 has some very rude riders. I've found that the 7 is the rudest train.
The 7 line just has a rude personality.
The cars that replace the redbirds on the 7 line should have tinted windows to block the sun out.
About extending the 7 to the Javits and Steinbrenner, have funds been identified for the projects yet? Or is that still in the Albany and Washington lobbying stages?
Still in the Guliani wish list phase. No money as of yet has been authorized for any new subway line past the 63rd St. connector.
Nothing to hold onto on the 7? The redbirds are as close as riders can get to being true straphangers -- I find those flippy dangling things much easier to hold onto than the horizontal bars on the newer cars, although flying through Columbus Circle on a 2 while holding on is always a bit of a challenge.
Do the R-44's, R-46's and R-68's really have more room to stand than Redbirds? Those seats take up an awful lot of space, and nobody likes being stuck in a window seat next to a stranger since it's a pain to get out.
How do the R-68's have an IRT design??
The new Archer Avenue Extension stations are nice but are pretty boring. Give me Chambers Street any day over them.
Those straphangers are the stupidest pieces of crap ever forced onto the American public. When the train rocks back and forth or goes through a curve, you might as well let go, what use are they? Let's not forget that no matter how much space there is, if there are, say, 10 straphangers, 10 people will stand. No more. I commend the MTA for doing such a good job overhauling all the BMT/IND cars (except for the R-32/38 signs) but did a crappy job doing the Redbirds. Since they would last 15-20 years after their rebuilds to their doom, they should have done a better job, like decluttering the ceilings, removing the thick poles that support the A/C units and of course those measures will make the A/C better. And of course, NO MORE STRAPHANGERS. A nice addition would be cutting the dividers between the windows and making picture windows (unnecessary on WF cars, for obvious reasons).
Those 'thick poles' actually HOLD UP the blower and evaporator. The coolant lines run through the poles to the compressor and heat exchanger under the car.
-Hank
(Did I just re-arrange the A/C system?)
thats all good but they're a pain to sit next to.
So sit elsewhere.
-Hank
The R-32 and R-38 had the A/C retrofit yet they avoid the annoying fat poles.
Look where the A/C units were put on those cars. They're placed (and supported) mostly on the car ends, between the last set of doors and the car end, not middle of the ceilings between the end and center side doors. The BMT-IND cars are longer, which equals more space for the equipment to be spread out. They also had a different configuration before they were overhauled.
-Hank
Trouble is, those straps on the redbirds are all being used!!! It's so damn crowded on the 7 people are holding onto anything, train doors, windows, the vent, even eachother.
While the newer BMT/IND rolling stock does not have straps, it does in my opnion give a smoother ride, so it's easier to stand. But on the redbirds, you have to hang on for dear life.
Why the hell did they shorten the 7 train anyway? Since it's been 10 cars instead of 11 the crowding is practically intolerable.
Because the 11th car is a piece of s*** and doesn't have air conditioning. This is the worst car in my opinion. When the R-142s arrive they ABSOLUTELY MUST be scrapped.
My "friend" went to the TA Museum at Grand Central last night ... I have some bad news & some good news:
- He got the LAST Lisa Lou - Am. Glamorana MC ... must have been a realy small run of cards. Personally the LAST is the imporant part, as he, Allan & a few others have them :-(
- He was able to get two sets of the first 4 of 6 Mets/Topps "Int'l Week" set: 8/6 = Hispanic; 8/7 = Irish; 8/8 = Jewish; 8/9 Asian. They are quite attractive.
- He also said three other collectors were in line behind him. Looks like a lot of New Yorkers are joining the fun ... I wonder what else they collect ? My article in a June token newsletter brought just a few inquiries, so it may not be them.
- Millenium MetroCard ... anybody know anything about this one, i.e. when did/is it comming out, and where sold ?
- New collector repeat of a "mounting" suggestion (wasn't my idea, thanks need to go to Mark): Staples has a "Business Card Holder" that's just the right size for you to display 8 MCs at a time in a three ring binder. It's heavy duty plastic so it will tollerate a lot of showing off of your stuff. They come three to a pack at about $4.
Mr t__:^)
As you may know, I do not work for the TA. I'm not even old enough to vote:)
However, I do have a question about "The Pick".
From the name and the posts I've read, I pretty much figured out what it was. So what's the whole process anyway and how often does it occur?
I'm sure there's some kind of seniority deal going on with who get's the "Best pick"(i.e.-the rookies get stuck with the B and D(so they get stuck with the R-68's) and the veterans get the good lines(Flushing El or my favorite, the Broadway/Nassau line).
(I feel weird writing this yet-another-request, since I ask more than I contribute around here, but I think it would be a great idea)
How about a month-in-the-life section of TO's and conductors on this
site? From pick to walk-around (to handles) or (to buttons) to
the dead-head ride home?
On that topic, what's a typical day in the life of a TO like?
(I read Marion Swerdlow's book, so I've a better idea about
conductors - no offense meant! ;)
Be glad to put it up. Anyone want to write it?
Dave, here it is. I probably left something out, but someone will correct me.
Pick Procedure for RTO (Conductors and Train Operators)
General Picks for jobs, days off, pay location and holidays are picked by seniority and held twice a year.
A notice with the Call Sheets goes out 5 days before the start of the pick. Notice shows starting date of pick (ie when picking starts, not implementation date) and holiday dates. Call sheets show day and time employee picks. It also shows employee's file number (seniority), name, pass number, Division and title.
After checking the Call Sheets for date and time, you go to one of the pick locations to look at available jobs. You are expected to have your selections ready at your pick time.
The A Division is divided into two sections - Broadway (1,2, 3 & 7) and East (4, 5, 6 & S).
The B Division is divided into three sections - South (B, D, N, Q & FS), Queens (E, F, G & R) and North (A, C, J, L and M).
When you first come out to the road, you are thrown to a division (maybe you'll get a choice, but don't count on it) as an Extra Extra List. This means you have no Pick job and are at the mercy of the Crew Office for starting times and locations as well as days off. Once you can pick a job, you may transfer divisions if you want. Since so many of you like Redbirds, e'll use the A division for the example. Assuming you are high enough on the list you have your choice of sections as well as tour - Midnight (start time between 2200 and 0400), AM (start times between 0400 and 1200) and PM (start time between 1200 and 2200). Now, you look at the jobs in that particular area - B'way Midnight - that you want to work. If your file number is really high, you can pick a straight job, ie the same job every night Mon thru Fri. If not, you may end up with Mon/ Tue as Days off, work the samejob Wed thru Fri and pick a Sat and Sun job. Of course, when you're fairly new, you work an RDO Relief job - your jobs during the week are picked from the leftovers that occur from people who pick off M/T or Th/F plus a weekend job. You also have the option of picking the Extra List for either section or picking Vacation Relief in the division.
Keep in mind: XXL - you can start anywhere in the division at any time during the tour you are working. XL - You can start anywhere in the section at any time during your tour. Vaction Relief - every two weeks, a list of people going on vaction in the division is issued. You bid on jobs, which are awarded in order of seniority. If there are more VR people than open jobs, some of them will become Extra for that time. This is a great way to spend summers, since high seniority people go on vacation then and you get their jobs, ie S/S off and holidays off.
In my own case, I came out of School Car into A Division in Feb '98, worked XXL for Feb. New Pick in March '98, still XXL (during the Lenox Rehab summer). Oct '98 picked Vac. Relief in A Division (my other choice was PMs on the 6 - I don't like PMs and the 6; together it was more than I wanted to deal with). I spent this pick going between Midnights and AMs, with different days off every week. Of course, I got off Thanksgiving and Christmas, so it wasn't all bad. The current pick started in May '99. I transferred to the B Division because I could get starting locations closer to home ( SI). My Pick job was an RDO Relief in the South, AMs all on the N - Sun at Stillwell, M & T same job at City Hall, W & Th off, F & S at Coney Island Yard. For the upcoming Pick, I'll be on the B on Sun, M at City Hall, T& W off, Th &F same job at C.I. Y. , Sat also at C.I.Y.
The No.6 and PM'S don't really mix. In and out all Night and No Lunch. If its a early Pm Job don't forget your Lay Up.
how long will it be before you get to pick your hours?
what is the policy on time off, can you take it with no pay?
I do pick my hours; unfortunately I pick from what's left over. In general, I work early AMs: Sun @ 0913, M/T @ 0439, F @ 0628, Sat @ 0818. Next Pick: Sun @ 0856, M 2 0543, Th/F @ 0603, Sat @ 0748. Hopefully, though, this will be the last time I pick for a while - I'm hoping to be called for Train Operator before the end of the pick. That will put me at the bottom of the list again, but give me a raise.
There's an old saying: the only guy to pick is the #1 man. Everybody else (including the #2 man) has to choose from whatever is left over!
Heck, I'd work the Franklin Ave Shuttle at night if I could get a MTA job. Of course, I'd have to be packing some major firepower, like an AK-47.
I was surprised to learn that of America's 10 largest cities, one doesn't have a public transit system.
Detroit, MI.
Now that it's almost out of the top ten(if not already-I heard they were counting the homeless just to keep the populaion over the one million mark), do you think having a system would have been helpful in at least slowing down the city's record decrease in population?
[I was surprised to learn that of America's 10 largest cities, one doesn't have a public transit system.
Detroit, MI.
Now that it's almost out of the top ten(if not already-I heard they were counting the homeless just to keep the populaion over the one million mark), do you think having a system would have been helpful in at least slowing down the city's record decrease in population?]
Detroit did have some sort of downtown people-mover system. I'm not sure exactly what it was, possibly some type of elevated light rail, but I believe it's now out of service. I do know that Detroit's suburban commuter rail shut down about ten years ago.
Whether effective tranist would have stemmed Detroit's population decline is a matter of speculation. My suspicion is that the 1967 riots and the loss of much of the city's industrial base were bigger factors.
Detroit's suburbs are thriving today, but their population density probably isn't high enough to support an extensive transit system, particularly one that's rail-based. And it goes without saying that the auto culture is very strong in the area.
The Detroit peoplemover has been out of service on several occasions, the most recent being when a building being imploded collapsed the wrong way and heavily damaged one section. Two portions have resumed service but it is expected to be November before full service is restored.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
"I was surprised to learn that of America's 10 largest cities, one doesn't have a public transit system: Detroit, MI."
Not really.
According to 1996 figures from the U.S. Census Bureau, the top ten metro areas in population are, in order, New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago, Washington, San Francisco/Oakland/San Jose, Philadelphia, Boston, Detroit, Dallas/Fort Worth, and Houston. To be more specific, the metropolitan populations for the areas ranked eigth, ninth, and tenth, as estimated for July 1996, are:
Detroit 5,284,171 (up slightly from 5,187,171 in the 1990 Census)
Dallas/Fort Worth 4,574,561
Houston 4,253,428
Of the top ten cities, only Detroit and Houston have no *rail* transit, with the arguable exception of the People Mover loop in downtown Detroit. If you look at the top 20 metro areas as of 1996 by adding to the above list Atlanta, Miami, Seattle/Tacoma, Cleveland, Minneapolis/St. Paul, Phoenix, San Diego, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, and Denver/Boulder, they all either have rail transit or are building it, except for Phoenix.
However, Detroit, Houston, and Phoenix are not "transitless" since they have bus transit. In Detroit, city service is provided by the Detroit Department of Transportation while suburban buses are operated by an authority called SMART (a rather contrived acronym for Suburban Mobility Authority for Regional Transportation).
Source of all Census statistics above: http://www.census.gov/population/estimates/metro-city/ma96-08.txt
When I said "among the 10 largest cities", I really meant
the core city itself, not the suburban areas(though those
are becoming blurred in some areas).
I used to be able to name the 50 largest cities in
order(this moreover goes to show my lack of a social
life).
As of the '90 census, Detoit was 7th at 1,027,974(with San
Diego between it and the top 5).
As far as the transit issue, I do recall seeing a map of
the downtown area and seeing a people mover. In fact, at
www.photostogo.com, there is a photo of a train
in front of the Renaissance Hotel(It takes a while to load, but you can find it under "subway").
The reason I don't really count the people mover as rail transit, though technically I suppose it is, and despite the fact that I have ridden it, is that it has a very limited route and is not used for commuting but only for circulation within the downtown area. I don't really count a city that has only buses and a downtown peoplemover as a "rail transit city," but others may disagree.
And comparing core cities alone isn't a fair measure in, for example, Boston, where the city of Boston faces a large separate municipality (Cambridge) just across the river from downtown. Cambridge and many communities bordering Boston proper are urban, rather than suburban, in population density, land uses, transit availability, etc. but are legally suburbs because they are separare municipalities from the core city. If only the core cities were compared, London would be small indeed, because the City of London itself is only about a square mile and mainly consists of offices, banks, etc. (^:
Didn't 'SMART' originally mean 'Southeast Michigan Area Regional Transit' or something very similar rather than that really contrived 'Suburban Mobility Authority' John Bredin cites?
And are the heritage trolleys in front of the Joe Louis Convention Center still operating? I drove through Detroit a week or so ago but didn't have time to stop (those streetcars in Toronto were calling my name and saying 'Ride me, ride me,' but alas the eastern end of Queen Street was all torn up for rail and overhead replacement and I couldn't bring myself to ride a replacement bus).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Could Somebody tell howe late the"Q" is going to run when the new schedule is implemented I know is got a span increase. also if there were any other changes in eithjer division please tell me.
On the A Division the preposed Pick sheets for the service for this fall are.
No.2 Line -Local from 96 Street to Chambers Late Nights only
- 6 Minute Headway during Middays
No.6 Line -Local to Brooklyn Bridge all Night
- Every 4 Minutes out of Pelham Bay and every 2 Minute out of Parkchester during Middays.
When the sheets come out for the A Division I will let you know. The Following Information was given to me by the Dispatchor at 241 Street and Train Crews on the Pelham Line
Dave, I don't think those midday times on the 6 are right. With all the wheel detectors at Parkchester, there is no way they could ever get a local out of there every 2 minutes.
So, the 2 is going to run local in Manhattan late at night, eh? Hopefully this won't cause delays where it has to switch tracks.
Since the No.2 Line will mainly run local Between Midnignt and 5AM there should be no delays. The Perpose of the No.2 running local is to have a 10 Minute Headway between 96 Street and Chambers Street.
[ So, the 2 is going to run local in Manhattan late at night, eh?
Hopefully this won't cause delays where it has to switch tracks. ]
I would think that during late nights, there wouldn't be any delays due to any kind of crossover moves, because there isn't much conflicting traffic.
Isn't the WEst Side IRT express service just going to miss its 95th birthday in October (or was there ever a time prior to the current "improvement" that there was not West Side express service overnight)?
Next step--any other night, weekend, or non-rush hour express service goes.
Next step after that--1:00 a.m to 5:00 a.m.--no rail service, just parallel buses.
Next step after that--no service, steel or rubber-tired wheels between those hours.
It would continue the TA's continuing policy of service cuts that are labeled as "improvements." And tough for the poor slobs who might live in mid to upper Bronx or the outlying sections of Brooklyn who might want to get home a few minutes sooner without their butts sliding back and forth a dozen extra times.
Broadway is a good example--four services each operating every 20 minutes overnight has been reduced 75% to one local-only every 20 minutes.
Give the subways back to the politicians who are answerable to the people who own the system and we'll have 24-hour service all over the city again the way the system was intended and built to operate.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Even one better is that one who misses a local desiring to go to 242 St is still waiting 20 minutes for a train to 242 St because the number 2 he gets on behind the local will not make a future connection. But the bean counters at Jay St can proudly proclaim that there is 10 minute midnight service. What if the northbound local, which is now held at Chamber St instead of South Ferry makes a connection with the train out of Brooklyn? You are waiting 18 minutes for a train on a two minute headway? Either way the TA increased your service. HAHAHAHAHA! Maybe we should hire those who work in Bombay to run Jay Street.
With the advent of the #2 going local overnight, this creates a 10 minute headway in the city. This will make life difficult for the collectors (money trains) and the #2 regular work(garbage train. They will be hard pressed to make fast moves. The collector might not be too bad because the motorman changes ends in the train with only two cars. The regular work has threee flat bed cars with garbage dumpsters on them. When he changes ends he has to walk the roadbed when in a spur. They will have to double end this train (2 motormen) if they want to do the work quickly.
In the Eastern Division of the BMT and now on the Queens IND, the garbage is being hauled up into the street and onto a TA garbage truck. And the TA saves $$$ because it is all done with just 2 men. They are also using trucks and not the revenue collector in places to service the booths with change, tokens & MetroCards.
They were doing that the last time I worked over there in '96. Alot of times this is done when there are G.O.s. I would like to know what the plans are for the collectors and pickups in the IRT.
This Rail Historian is concerned that the Universal Critic is using my sytle of writing threads on Subtalk. Everyone wants to get into the act.
Oh, dear.
The Universal Critic is distressed to hear that our brother, the Rail Historian, believes that the Universal Critic's method of written expression is not natural, perhaps not even an homage, but a pose.
To quote our esteemed predecessor, Oscar Wilde, "But isn't it an attractive pose?"
Let's keep on the subject and not poetry. Sometimes you sound like th Joker of Batman fame.
Poetry? The Joker? Cesar Romero did more laughing than anything else, and after a while it got on your nerves. So did Frank Gorshin and Burgess Meredith. Huahh, huahh. Holy (fill in your own term)!
Maybe you both could just cut it out. No wonder people are getting annoyed. Rail Historian, I already saw your "goodbye" posting. When will you be back with another handle? Which style will you choose next time?
You two are the prime example why I think we need password control on this board. I had let the idea slide a little but don't worry, it will be here. You guys might want to decide which handle you want to use permanently while you still can.
Maybe I should post a correlation between all the different multiple handle posters on here. Or maybe I should just show the IP address and hostname information in every post so people can figure it out by themselves. I'm all for privacy but this multiple handle business is getting out of hand.
-Dave
I vote for both.
-Hank
Well I did go to Phila on Thursday. I started My trip from 30 Street. I got on the Market Street Line with the New M4's. It was nice and Air Conditioned. Also the trains were fast and smooth. Also I was suprised to be alble to stand at the front Window or sit at the front side Window. I can't believe that those Computor Annoutsment tell you that doors are opening and the doors are closing. I got of at 11th Street to go to the Musuem Store. Then I rode Up to Frankford Terminal. I asked the T/O if it was a 2 man operation. He told me no. Those trains are OPTO on the Market Franford Line. Also the T/O does not look out the window to observe the platform. This is what he told me. When he gets in the stations on his side he hits the DOORS Right Button. When Its the off side he hits doors left Button. Now he has 2 TV Monitors in his single cab. It shows the inside of all the 6 cars and a view of the Platform. Also the doors are Super sensitive. If anything get stuck in the doors as the train moves it will stop and the computer will tell the T/O what car and Door Panel. There have been No Drags since the start of OPTO on the Market Street Line. I rode the line during the Rush Hour no Problems. They are also just now working out the Bugs on the new trains. One Problem they do have is kids who pull on the doors and people who lean on the doors. Those two thing cause the Indication to go out causing the train to stop. It was a educational trip.
I am now convinced OPTO can work.
The doors, the doors.
I've had many a ride on the M-4's interrupted by announcements of "Please stop playing with the doors" or something to that effect. Sometimes they have to close two or three times before the train moves because of obstructions in the doorways.
And I wonder if SEPTA gets complaints about those announcements:)
You must have seen the test train with interior cameras. I believe there is only one MFL train that has those. Most trains do not have cameras inside the cars, and therefore only one tv monitor inside the cab, for the 3 platform cameras at each station.
There is also a similar train with interior cameras on the BSS.
I seen the TV Screens on all 7 Trains I observed.
Yes, all M-4s have TV monitors in the cab for the platform cameras. But most trains I have seen (and I ride every day,) do not have cameras _inside_ the cars, nor the second TV monitor in the cab to monitor them. That's what I was trying to say. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Ok I see what you mean. Well that was my one day in Phila.
Its time for me to get back to running my No.1 Train
PELHAM BAY Dave is running the 1 train? hmm...
"Doors are opening,Frankford train making all stops,Doors are closing." Ok now repeat that 24 times. Do you think it's annoying??? I sure do!
It was easy to tell when the doors were opening and closing on the M-3's (Almond Joys). All you would hear was the irreplaceable sound of air operated door engines when they opened, And the Conductor's whistle when they were closing. Well...I guess that's the price for technology! I better not complain about those announcements, Who knows what the R-142 & R-143's have in store for us???
As for those leaning on or holding the doors...."Please stand clear of doors"
Mark
P.S.
"B train to 69th Street, B stops only"
This is the Brooklyn-bound 2
The next stop will be Park Place
Please stand clear of the closing doors
BEEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP-BEEP
The next stop will be Park Place
This is Park Place, transfer is available to the A, C, E and 3 trains.
(and so on until...)
This is the 2 bound for Flatbush Avenue
The next stop will be Borough Hall
(and on...)
The next and last stop will be Flatbush Avenue
This is Flatbush Avenue, this is the last stop, please leave the train
Thank you for riding with the New York City Transit Authority
(every 10 minutes)
Ladies and Gentlemen, the time is now 3:30
(on the way back)
This is the 2 bound for Manhattan with continuing service to the Bronx
The next stop will be Newkirk Avenue
etc..
Then just: This is the Manhattan bound 2
You all should get the point by now.
It could be worse. I.e., it could be like the Atlanta Int'l Airport train between the terminals.
When the train is a station, huge red lights start to flash with an aural warning, "The doors are about to close. Please stand back and wait for the next train. Thank you. The doors are closing." And the doors close.
Inside the train, "Please sit down or hold on to a handrail. Beware, teh train is about to accelerate. The next stop is terminal 3, Northwest, KLM, United, Continental [I'm making the airlines up; don't hold me to them.] We are about to stop at terminal 3. Please hold on, the train is about to deccelerate. The train is stopping. Welcome to terminal 3. Please stand clear of the opening doors."
"The train is about to leave . . . "
Now THAT gets annoying by the time you get to the main terminal.
-Brandon Bostian
But (except for fans like us) who rides it more than from point A to point B while changing planes or getting baggage? For them it's probably not too bad.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Eh, I rode to the main terminal from the Northwest terminal when I went to Altanta. Even as an avid train fan, the announcements were highly annoying by the time I disembarked. :-)
I'd still ride it again, though. Bigger grin.
-Brandon
I hate The M4 Cars. Who here agrees. The only ting good about them is the AC. But alot of times that ont even work. Bring back the Almond Joys. Some guy wrote that in in the NorthEast Times here in Philly. He called them lemons because thats what they are.
We'll have the same crap here in New York in 2002 when the R-142s take over completely. We'll have people continue to call them lemons and we'll have people called ST. LOUIS MAN and AMERICAN CAR AND FOUNDRY MAN posting how they want the Redbirds to stop being garbage cars and come back into service.
It's not technology... it's the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA). That is why the line and station are displayed and stated on the MFSE at every darn stop. Of course, people with both good hearing and vision are driven crazy by the constant talking by the machine and the constant sign changing all around them. I sure wish I knew what people did before these signs and statements were invented. I think that the most incredible thing is that the doors close while the statement "Doors closing" is heard. So by the time you hear the "clo..." it has already slammed in your face. I kind of wish they had used a voice with a Philadephia accent, then it might sound better. Also when they tell you which lines it connects with, they should say whether soft pretzels are available at street level :-).
They have done the same thing with the Jubilee Extension in London. And there they have gone one better, the return of walls with slots where the doors belong, and the doors open when the train doors attach to them, like elevator doors, Airport subways, and the Lexington Avenue South Ferry station (sorta, without the extra doors) from the beginning of the century.
The eletronic signs don't bother me. They're out of the way, yet prominent enough that you can always see one if you've been conversing, dozing, etc, and want to know what station is next. I see the signs as being timely, useful information, presented in just the right manner.
The voice anouncements are a tad annoying, but I don't mind them too much. I do like the fact that of you're commuting from 69th to Center City, you can shut your eyes and just listen, and not miss your stop. Great on Monday mornings. I think the voice is about as pleasant as it could be, but I can see how having one at all might be annoying for some.
The "Doors Opening" and "Doors Closing" are very obnoxious. If they really are required by ADA, then the ADA is insulting the intelligence of the disabled by assuming that they can't quickly fiugure out what a tone means.
I agree. Why does one need to have a voice announcement for doors opening and closing? On a recent visit to Toronto, I was very impressed with the T1's, which give a simple tone when the doors are about to close (along with the flashing lights) and this says it all. For all the high-tech gizmos, etc, the T1's rely on simple conductor announcements for stations, and this is fine for me.
It's interesting to compare this to SEPTA's 400 Ikarus buses, which have the announcements also. After a couple of years in service, most of the voices have been quieted to some degree, if not altogether stifled. Do most riders miss this? Most enjoy the quieter ride. I related a story here a while back about being stuck in expressway traffic on an Ikarus which kept making the "welcome to route 27..." announcement over and over again. It seems this is tied to the stopping and dwelling of the vehicle, and with the stop and go traffic, well, we got announcements out the proverbial wazoo.
In our attempts to improve things, sometimes we get carried away...
You might be right about maybe a Philly accent would have been better than the woman's voice. I heard they really labored over which voice to use and the gal who does the announcements is supposed to
be really cute. She rode the line when it first opened and all the guys really liked her.
Come on everybody, the M-4's aren't that bad. The A/c is good and the ride is smoother. They could use chimes for the doors, though. I also love the front "railfan" seats. You can actually see well from the first three rows !
Chuck Greene
Chuck I have to go along with your comments on the M-4 cars. They are pretty nice. Nice ride, railfan seat, and lets not forget the important A/C. Really did appreciate that A/C during the July 4th holiday. I wonder how "Consumer Reports" would rate our M-r cars?
This Rail Historian has an interesting thought. If the honest New York City Police Officer Frank Serpico had to deal with Bernard Goetz. Goetz would be thrown in jail forever with Officer Serpico arresting him. What are your thoughts?
The Universal Critic believes that his esteemed brother, The Rail Historian, is engaging in a non-sequitar.
This Rail Historian says you could keep the subject of rapid transit subject and not the Batman Joker language.
This Rail Historian has an interesting thought. If the honest New York City Police Officer Frank Serpico had to deal with Bernard Goetz. Goetz would be thrown in jail forever with Officer Serpico arresting him. What are your thoughts?
The Universal Critic believes that his esteemed brother, The Rail Historian, is engaging in a non-sequitar.
This Rail Historian says you could keep the subject of rapid transit subject and not the Batman Joker language.
??????
I'm not sure what any of this exchange has to do with rapid transit, except that Goetz shot people on the subway.
Why would Serpico particularly interest himself with Bernhard Goetz? And he [Serpico] certainly couldn't throw anyone in jail for life unless he was both judge and jury.
Although I guess I could imagine that Serpico is a person so full of himself that he'd like to do that.
Please, please, please let's stop this. It's starting to get less than civil.
You guys want to cut it out please?
Maybe I should just ban you guys and be done with it. Neither of you are contributing much to the board and I think everyone is just getting tired of this.
In my book Bernie Goetz is still a wacko -- only thing was he had good aim. What if his aim wasn't that good -- chances are he could have done some serious harm to innocent subway riders. Think about it.
BTW, Frank Serpico is/was a descent human being who HAPPENNED to be a cop. Sure he 'ratted' on his fellow officers, but that in itself took alot of balls to do back in those days. I salute him!
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, Bernhard Goetz, like his attackers, was a product of the social breakdown of the 70's.
We may forget that at the time of the incident, roving bands of kids harassed and sometimes mugged or even murdered passengers. Remember the Iowa(?) tourist who was knifed to death defending his mother at 53rd-7th?
Goetz drew the attention of his attackers because in the words of one "he looked soft." Many New Yorkers (including members of the Goetz jury) knew what it meant to be guilty of the crime of "lookig soft" when a bunch of acting-out kids entered a subway car.
In my memory of the 50s and early 60s, almost any adult could challenge a kid who was getting a little out of hand on public transport and the kid would stop. By the time Goetz came around all adults felt they could do was keep their noses in their newspapers and hope the kids would find someone else to harass.
So of course Goetz is/was a wacko. At the time only a wacko was going to challenge those kids. But he did what a lot of other "soft" people secretly wished they could do.
Paul, I agree with your post.
BTW, I with not be posting to Goetz and Serpico thread anymore since it seems to get the anyst of a one such "Rail Historian".
Chat again later.
Doug aka BMTman
I see Bernie Goetz is going to have more than his fair share of 'his turn in the barrel'on Subtalk. Back when (???) Berine Goetz was faced with a perceived threat. He had two choices, fight or flight. While most of us would likely opt for flight, Bernie Goetz chose to fight. Regardless of how you see the merits of the case, that was the bottom line. So what happens? His actions make us all a little uncomfortable. Not because we want Darryl Caby and his Band of Merry Men running among us but because we are uncomfortable with the fact that faced with the same set of circumstances, we (NY society) might turn tail and run (or worse yet, give into the extortive demands and pray we are not hurt). We don't like looking at ourselves that carefully in the mirror so we make Bernie the bad guy to justify our own lack of courage as a society.
As for the second part of your statement, why would you expect Bernie to spend the rest of is life in jail. Convicted murderers do minimal time. He killed nobody. In fact he was only convicted of carrying an unlicensed weapon. Finally - what is the link with Serpico? I don't see the relationship.
I have picture showing Harry Houdini escaping from a strait jacket with the Battery Place Station of the 6th/9th Avenue EL in the background.
Holw about Harry Houdini escaping from the E or F train in Queens during rush hour?
This sunday, i will be adding more bus & subway pictures on my page. I will have MCI page, RTS Storage Yard from Carltion Ave & work trains from Williamburge Bridge.
Peace Out
Meaney
WHAT'S THE URL?
www.angelfire.com/ct/nyctmtasubway/index.html
The pictures are pretty good.
It appears that the Rail Historian is not welcome by the Subtalk Community. Maybe sometime in future this Rail Historian will have something to say.
well at least u got the message. chirpy says bye
(I just posted this in the other thread, sorry for the duplication.)
To everyone:
I hate to see someone get turned off and leave SubTalk. We may all be coming from different places, but with a just a little effort to be tolerant, I think the rewards of more minds contributing are well worth it. That's just my take on things.
To Rail Historian:
The only problem I have is that you always refer to yourself in the third person. I'm sure if we were to speak in person, it would be accompanied by a tone of voice that would make it come across in good humor, as I assume it is intended.
However, we are not face-to-face here on SubTalk, and in writing, referring to yourself in the third person comes across as pretentious and condescending, which no one appreciates. If you were to start referring to yourself as "I", "me", or "myself", I know it would be a lot easier for me to take you seriously. That might just be me, though...
Are the tracks that extend pass Jamaica Center Parsons on the E being used.Where do they end because I see it curve east and the speed limit is 10mph.Is this going to be an extension for the E in the near future?
This was supposed to extend along the LIRR to Rochdale Village and beyond. The tracks only go as far as Liberty Ave
Right now the tracks extend approximately 1/2 mile beyond the end of the Parsons/Archer station. The line was originally envisioned to go south-east to Rosedale. Currently, the 2 tracks are used only for storage.
What about the J and Z? Does it follow the same pattern?
No, their tunnels were set to go straight. They should have extended it to Merrick Blvd for the bus terminal
So, they won't never be a track connect b/t the J/Z and E lines?
Highly unlikely.
One 8 car train can fit on each track beyond the station on tracks J1 and J2.
I found a classified ad for a "Request for Information" for the subject system placed by NYC Transit in a transit magazine. I've scanned it, and can be viewed HERE (Note - this is a 277K file.) Comments?!?!?
Technology over training - I guess the TA is really trying to eliminate the need for intelligence among the operating employees.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Read the ad closely. Twice they used the word preform when they meant PERFORM. There is no intelligence in mgmt, why would they want it in Operations?
My older son is spending his summer vacation as an intern at a rural newspaper in North Carolina. He tells me that the newspaper business is dumbing down just as fast as the rest of society - running spell check has replaced real copy editing, and if spell check doesn't catch it, it must be right.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
In defense of the newspaper, some advertisements are delivered to the paper with a "DO NOT CHANGE ANYTHING!" attitude. So, the newspaper may have had no choice but to run the ad with the errors. Advertisers are very picky about their ads--and from the way the TA has been described around here, I could see them getting upset over unauthorized changes to fix an error.
Brandon Bostian,
Journalist. :-)
Also a possibility, that's for sure. In that case, my comments about the newspaper staff would apply to the TA's advertising staff. Either way, it demonstrates a lamentable loss of basic writing skills, wherever the problem may be. That's one thing I like about The Franklin Times(the local biweekly in Louisburg, NC where my son is interning this summer) - they haven't lost sight of what real newspapering is all about. He will learn far more about being a good newspaperman in a couple of summers interning there than he will in four years of college - not to disparage the education he's getting, but most journalism programs focus on "how to grab headlines and sell papers (or airtime)" rather than on how to report the news and tell the story of life in a community. He's got ink in his blood. To keep this somewhat on topic, he's currently researching a "community history" of the eleven-mile SAL branch (abandoned in the late 1980's) from Franklinton to Louisburg, NC. It may not print until fall, but who knows.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Like using a calculator to add 2+2.
Honestly, it sounds like the beginnings of automation. What's left to do after you have platforms that tell the train that it's OK to open the doors?
-Hank
Interesting idea! Replace the conductor with sensors that also stop the train correctly. Can you say NPTO? After all, if the silly thing can stop the train in the station, it should be able to do it on the road. Apparently, T/Os are as endangered as Conductors.
Does anyone rember the fully automated test train the T.A. tried on the Times Square shuttle back in the 60's. They were R22's
I belive. (It was lost in an accidental fire....) How about A.T.O. on the 44's and 46"s ? The T.A. has been trying automated trains for a long time. I just hope the union, doesn't sell out.
The prime purpose of a union is to collect dues and pay salaries to its officers and staff. No more T/Os, etc., no more members. No more members, no more dues. They'll fight.
That's a good point you have. The union should be telling the membership to start putting something aside each pay check,just in case the T.A. forces us to strike. It's a good idea to be prepared.
Yeah, good idea. Save money to use when your union says strike, when you're already going to lose twice as much pay for every day you're out. Cut your own discretionary income, impact your lifestyle, because the union that, by state law, you are forced to use for representation decides to make incredibly unreasonable demands on the establishment.
-Hank
Lets face it Local 100 is in MTA's pocket
In another age it would be a called a COMPANY UNION!
Who will be blamed when the TA replaces the conductors on the trains with this new system that I'm sure will cost hundreds of millions of dollars to design, manufacture, implement, install and trouble shoot (i.e. make work, and work it must because so much money will be invested).
What is at stake here?
Huge sums of money invested in a systems that docks the train diverted from much needed renewal of infastructure.
Potential to loss hundreds or thousands of jobs.
Less security for the riders.
And why, because a few employees either can not or will not perform their jobs properly and the TA can't seem to make them do it right or fire them.
A conductor that CAN NOT perform the task of opening the doors of his/her train on the proper or station platform side, should be out-of-service and fired! No excuses.
Jim K.
Chicago
I could probably design a $5 per door set solution (What is that? $40/car?) using an infrared obstruction detection circuit I know. (Mount it about a half inch below the doors--a platform would trip the detector and allow the doors to open.)
But I am sure they can find a more expensive way to do it. :-)
If the Pentagon could spend $9,000 for a 13-cent Allen wrench, anything is possible.
Look, this is really nothing more than a linear version of the controls in the elevators in any building less than 40 years old. I mean, which of you has ever ridden one where the operator stopped the car not quite at the floor and opened the door. And as to the current TA, I can only note that my own experience of wrong side open was on a midday IRT train @President St. sometime in 67-69. I wasn't due to get off, but I saw the doors pop and closse in a hurry. Apparently no one was injured. BTW we here with BART have essentially automated everything, and it mostly works, but it took years to work out the bugs. SF MUNI on the other hand implemented a new ATCS last August with results which made the East Coast papers. Unfortunately they seem to have paid to be beta-testers for software "not yet ready for prime time."
The 4:06 departure of the "Cannonball" left Hunterspoint Ave. with 2 DE30-AC's and TEN Bi-levels. The lead loco was 418. I did not get the car #'s. The last four cars were marked "PARLOR" with magnetic signs on the car sides. People will probably complain about this "PARLOR" service. The reason is after going into one of these I discovered that these people are paying $17.00 extra for nothing!!!! The seats are the same!!! I guess this is a hint from the R.R. that parlor service will soon disappear. A flyer was on each seat with the following printed:
WELCOME ABOARD....
INTRODUCING OUR BI-LEVEL CANNONBALL SERVICE
STARTING TODAY, WE'RE INAUGURATING BI-LEVEL CANNONBALL SERVICE TO THE EAST END, FEATURING THE NEWEST EQUIPMENT IN OUR FLEET. FROM THE MOMENT YOU STEP ONBOARD, YOU'LL NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE.
* LUGGAGE MAY BE EASILY STORED BENEATH THE NEW CANTILEVERED SEATS, AS WELL AS IN TWO LUGGAGE ALCOVES AT THE REAR. AS A COURTESY TO YOUR FELLOW PASSENGERS, PLEASE DO NOT PLACE LUGGAGE ON SEATS.
* THE TRAIN'S DESTINATION IS ELECTRONICALLY POSTED ON THE EXTERIOR OF EACH CAR, AND REPEATED IN AUDIO ANNOUNCEMENTS. BLINKING LIGHTS AND CHIMES ALERT YOU WHENEVER A DOOR OPENS OR CLOSES, AND ELECTRONIC SIGNS IDENTIFY UPCOMING STATIONS.
* SPACIOUS, WELL-LIGHTED RESTROOMS ARE IN THE FRONT OF EVERY OTHER CAR, AND INCLUDE HAND DRYERS, MIRRORS AND OTHER AMENITIES.
* PUBLIC TELEPHONE SERVICE IS AVAILABLE IN THE FRONT VESTIBULE OF EVERY CAR. CREDIT AND PHONE CARDS ACCEPTED.
* PARLOR SERVICE CARS ARE LOCATED AT THE REAR OF THE TRAIN.
* IN ORDER TO ELIMINATE THE NEED TO WALK THROUGH THE CARS IN ORDER TO EXIT, WE WILL NOW STOP TWICE AT EACH STATION, THEREBY ALLOWING ALL CANNONBALL CUSTOMERS TO DISEMBARK DIRECTLY FROM THEIR CAR TO THE PLATFORM.
THANK YOU FOR RIDING THE CANNONBALL. WE'RE SURE YOU'LL FIND YOUR TRIP RELAXING AND ENJOYABLE.
LONG ISLAND RAIL ROAD
Many thanks, Mark.
I've been wonering if the advent of the bi-levels meant the end of Parlor Service. I had heard that some of the bi-levels haev extra luggage space, and I guess these are used as parlors.
I'm not sure the $17.50 is "for nothing" though.
I've never ridden a parlor but I have peeked in them. I've also been suffered the pain of being a garden variety commuter on the coaches of east-end trains on Friday nights.
The crowding is incredible. Every seat taken and then some (with 3 and 2 seating). But the worst is the luggage. Everybody takes mountains of luggage, pets in carriers, you name it. All stuffed into one big < sarcasm > happy < /sarcasm > train!
The parlors have ample room for luggage and more breathing room. So if the bilevel parlors duplicate that, plus drinkies at your seat, it might not be so bad!
[I'm not sure the $17.50 is "for nothing" though.
I've never ridden a parlor but I have peeked in them. I've also been suffered the pain of being a garden variety commuter on the coaches of east-end trains on Friday nights.]
I have ridden in the parlor cars - until about a year ago, they were sometimes used on the Greenport Shuttle. All I have to say is that the seats are strange. You sit at an awkward angle, something that I was able to tolerate on the five-minute trip to Medford but wouldn't be fun on a Hamptons run.
[ I have ridden in the parlor cars - until about a year ago, they were
sometimes used on the Greenport Shuttle. All I have to say is that the
seats are strange. You sit at an awkward angle, something that I was
able to tolerate on the five-minute trip to Medford but wouldn't be
fun on a Hamptons run. ]
Awkward angle? Maybe you should have moved the seat? On most of the Parlor cars I've seen, the seats were not in any way attached to the floor, so you could position them any way you'd like. If you were talking about seat-back angle or something, I thought they were comfortable, but everyone's different.
[Awkward angle? Maybe you should have moved the seat? On most of the Parlor cars I've seen, the seats were not in any way attached to the floor, so you could position them any way you'd like. If you were talking about seat-back angle or something, I thought they were comfortable, but everyone's different.]
It was the seat-back angle. You're sort of halfway between slouching and sitting up straight. I've not noticed anything quite like that anywhere else.
[ It was the seat-back angle. You're sort of halfway between slouching
and sitting up straight. I've not noticed anything quite like that
anywhere else. ]
I always slouch anyways -- that's probably why I thought they were comfortable :)
Filthy, but comfortable...
Sorry guys. There was one mistake in my post. The Cannonball did not run with 10 Bi-levels. It ran with 11......Mark
[ Cannonball had nine bilevels ]
Which brings up another point--just one locomotive? Do those new beats have so much power they can pull that much weight and still make the schedules without help.
Just a week or so ago I saw a coventional Sunday nighter blasting through Babylon with 3 locomotives, 9 coaches and 5 parlors.
I think if you checked back, the original post specifies (2) DE30AC locos. One interesting note, in Sunday's Newsday there was an editorial covering the use of the C-3s on the Cannonball. The writer complained about a lack of luggage space as well as room for bicycles. he suggested retrofitting some of the older coaches to serve as strictly baggage cars on weekend east-end trains. A valid point to say the least but perhaps the LIRR should opt to modifying a pair of C-1s for that duty rather than scrapping them. At least the look would be similar.
The Cannonball had 11 Bi-levels with a DE30-AC on each end. Whoever says that there was anything else is wrong. I was at Hunterspoint Ave. and saw and photographed it leaving. the loco on the lead was 418
So DE30-ACs are able to MU with each other even though they're at opposite ends of the train? Did the train also have a control car at the west end behind the loco?
This raises another question. On the LIRR all equipment always faces the same direction. How was the DE30-AC at the west end pointed? If the cab faced west, I wonder how they turned it.
On any push-pull equipment, whether it be LIRR's bi-level fleet, NJT's, fleet, SEPTA's, or even Amtrak's Amfleet (40000 series), you can use either an engine or a cab car as the trailing end of the train, the lead locomotive won't know the difference. The wiring through the train is basically just your ordinary diesel m.u. wiring setup.
As for the west end unit on the Cannon Ball facing west, maybe the LIRR planned for this move, and turned it at Morris Park before dispatching it to the yard to start out with the train consist. There IS also a "wye" out at Montauk yard, so turning the unit wouldn't have been that difficult.
[As for the west end unit on the Cannon Ball facing west, maybe the LIRR planned for this move, and turned it at Morris Park before dispatching it to the yard to start out with the train consist. There
IS also a "wye" out at Montauk yard, so turning the unit wouldn't have been that difficult.]
There are small control cabs on the "wrong" ends of the new locomotives. I peeked through the window of one of these at Ronkonkoma, and a notice readable from the outside said that there was a maximum speed of 15 mph when a locomotive was being controlled in this manner, with no MU-ing permitted.
There's also a wye at or near the Speonk station.
The bi-levels have thru MU cables on all cars, as they use push-pull operation usually using a cab control car on the east end, the loco on the west. (at least that's how I've seen it on the Port Jefferson line)
-Hank
If you want to get down to it Hank, the usual LIRR practice is having the cab control car facing west and the locomotive facing east. Only on rare occasions have I seen the loco on the west end providing propulsion. That only happens when the train is bracketed by Dash 2's.
The only diesel line I've ever ridden is the Port Jefferson, and like I said, they had the loco on the west end when I rode it.
-Hank
All of the Bi-levels were coaches there was no cab cars in the consist. Just one note...While it did NOT run with the Cannonball drumhead on Friday, I'm told it will next week? I can't figure how they will find room for it on the DE30.....Mark
Maybe they will fabricate a holder that hangs in the coupler of the
trailing engine -- like the freight roads do with a FRED.
[ his raises another question. On the LIRR all equipment always faces
the same direction. How was the DE30-AC at the west end pointed? If the cab faced west, I wonder how they turned it. ]
There are many places the LIRR can turn equipment, from the Montauk Cutoff (goes from West Main line to East bound Lower Montauk just east of HP Ave), to the Belmost spur, to the diesel shops, to a wye at Montauk, etc. (What other wye's or loops does the LIRR have?). The Oyster Bay turntable is no longer operational :)
Anyways, all the equipment doesn't always face the same way, even for "regular" moves -- i.e. push-pull trains with a GP38 or MP15 at each end will usually have each loco pointing away from the consist, etc.
The coaches, though, generally stay in the same direction, which is facing west (A end towards New York). I've gotten onto the old push pull cars, and it's a strange sight when it's backwards. Everyone looks around and kinda says "hmm, what's different here". The main noticable difference is that the three-seat benches are normally on the north side, and the two-seat benches on the south.
[ [ Cannonball had nine bilevels ]
Which brings up another point--just one locomotive? Do those new beats
have so much power they can pull that much weight and still make the
schedules without help. ]
I think they're using 2 locos for the Cannonball. Theoretically, they should be able to get away with less, as the locos are 3000HP each, as compared to 1500 for the MP15 or 1800 for the GP38s. And, I think they use one GP38 to pull 8 cars all the time on Port Jeff and Montauk trains..
But the new Bilevels are probably a lot heavier than the Pullmans, and there is probably alot of power going to HEP.
The HEP is supplied from a separate engine, which is behind the prime mover inside the DE30's. So there would still be, theoretically, 3000 horsepower available for traction.
BTW, the GP38-2's were 2000 horsepower, not 1800.
Metrolink in southern California (as well as Amtrak) has the same setup on tgheir F59 and F59PHI locos. They all had 12V-149 Detroit Diesels when built but it is my understanding that Metrolink changed their units to a Cummins powerplant to turn the HEP generator.
[ BTW, the GP38-2's were 2000 horsepower, not 1800. ]
Thanks -- I dunno where I got that # from, but they do indeed have a 2000HP 645E 16cyl prime mover..
[The HEP is supplied from a separate engine, which is behind the prime
mover inside the DE30's. So there would still be, theoretically, 3000
horsepower available for traction. ]
Hmm, now I was pretty sure that the 3000HP 12-710 prime mover ran just one main generator, although there were separate inverters for both traction and HEP.
[ Metrolink in southern California (as well as Amtrak) has the same
setup on tgheir F59 and F59PHI locos ]
If you look at EMD's web pages at http://www.gmemd.com/locomotives/pass/f59phi/ and http://www.gmemd.com/locomotives/pass/de30ac/ , you'll see that they do mention the separate HEP engine for the F59, but do not mention it for the DE/DM 30. Seems to me that if they did do that, the darned things would be quieter in the station, since the prime mover would be able to truly idle, instead of needing a fast idle for HEP.
[ Cannonball had nine bilevels ]
Which brings up another point--just one locomotive? Do those new beats have so much power they can pull that much weight and still make the schedules without help.
Just a week or so ago I saw a coventional Sunday nighter blasting through Babylon with 3 locomotives, 9 coaches and 5 parlors.
We all know that the J/M/Z is one of the oldest routes in the city. Since that is the case, passengers are afflicted with slow speeds that are not associated with the other lines (A,C 2,3,4,5 lines). What can be done to alleviate this obstacle?
Well, I proposed a total rehab of the whole line from 121st Jamaica Avenue and Metropolitan Avenue. For instance, the MTA should demolish the whole route replacing it with 21 century standards. As a result, higher speeds will be achieved (55/65 miles hr). It should be built as a 4 track line inoppose to three track as it currently is. Passengers over using the A/E lines will no longer have to because of this improvement.
Express Stops from Essex Street:
Essex Street
Myrtle Avenue
Bway Junction (Exp uses Jamaica Ave. while the local use Fulton St.) (Connection b/t the overcrowded A line)
Woodhaven Blvd (Connection b/t new line from Roosevelt Avenue)
Sutphin Blvd (Connection b/t the over crowded E line to Midtown)
Jamaica Center
Other proposals:
J/Z (K) extended to Queens Village; using the LIRR trackway.
E extended to John F. Kennedy Airport via Guy R. Brewer Blvd.
F extended to Little Neck Parkway via Hillside Avenue.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The T.A has slowed down all the lines by way of modifying the propulsion system and placing more grade time signals into service
(wheel detectors also). There is no way they will tear down existing structures for the purpose of speeding things up.
Replacement is a stupid idea, except between Cypress Hills and Eastern Parkway. Now if you do replace, better to do it as a subway.
To expensive. Besides, I'm an advocate for elevated lines.
You and me both.......... Just make the J and Z turn on Jamaica Av after Eastern Pkwy........
Where did you get 2nd Avenue Local from Q express? You suppose to be running express via the Queens Blvd line. I'm only in my 20's and I don't expect to see 2nd Avenue service by the time I croak.
Same as the N Bway Express/4Av Express............
The Q will never run express along the Queens Blvd line. The Q is designed to run along Second Ave. and down Broadway if and when the 2nd Ave. line gets built.
[The Q will never run express along the Queens Blvd line. The Q is designed to run along Second Ave. and down Broadway if and when the 2nd Ave. line gets built. ]
Whose design is that? I think the plans are for the Q to run to Queens Blvd., probably as a local. If there are "long-term" plans that say otherwise, I'd like to know where they come from.
I had the impression that the train planned to run on upper 2nd Ave. and then west on 63rd St. would likely be the "Y" train, but I can't really put my finger on why. Anyway, none of us are likely ever to see such a train.
The 63rd st. line was designed to have Broadway trains (the Q or another line) serve 2nd Ave and 6th Ave. trains going to Queens. There is another platform behind the wall at Lexington Ave where the tracks from Broadway come from.
No Broadway Q line will ever run to Queens. If the Manhattan Bridge closes the 6th Ave tracks when the connection opens in 2 years a new line will probably be instituted running along Queens Blvd and 6th Ave (I think the letter V has been set aside for this line). If the 6th Ave tracks remain open it will probably be the Q, operating along 6th Ave. But no definate decision has been made.
If both sides of the bridge are open, or even just the south side, the Q will operate over Broadway, not 6th.
I know that. But it won't go to Queens. It will end at 57 street, until the 2nd Ave. line gets built.
Like I said before, why not extend it to Lex-63 when the connector is open?
3TM
P.S. Chris, how about C train Chris? :):):):)
Nahhh. Choosing a lightly used local train wouldn't "express" my desire for the MTA subway system properly.
How about Culver Chris? Canal Street Chris? Concourse Chris?
3TM
Too long, I like shorter names.
> Too long, I like shorter names.
Well the one you picked hopefully isn't meant to confuse anyone - we already have a well known "subway-buff" contributing to SubTalk. Maybe out of respect you should choose something else.
-Dave
Just when I thought I had one ...
Oh, well :)
What's wrong with just using your name? Lots of other people do it...
-Hank
[ What's wrong with just using your name? Lots of other people do it... ]
I've tried using my name, but it never seems to operate the brake valve as well as a handle...
(duck).
QUACK!
-Hank
Rim Shot!!!!
(duck)
Why a duck?
[ (duck)
Why a duck? ]
Good point. I guess ducks don't work as well as handles either.
Makes me wish I had saved some of those posts from nyc.transit last month when this came up...
-Hank :)
Yeah, real names, like Intentionally left blank. (Yes, yes, I know who you are.)
I foyu know who I am, then you know why I do it...
I'd use my real name to post from work, if I weren't using a shared computer. I use my real name from home, and I sign my messages from here all the same. No hiding for me!
-Hank :)
Chris? It's so....so....boring
Subway Nut
(is anyone else using THIS name??)
lol
No, but people may not take you seriously.
-Hank :)
PS Hank isn't boring?
Hmmmm, I guess it's back to Chris
Not that I know of, but it describes all of us... ;o)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If I remember correctly those handles were only in
some of the old IND trains, not all. Am I right?
Anyone remember?? Also I remember on those trains
the conductor had to climb onto 2 ledges (1 from
each car) between cars to open & close the doors!!
I saw conductors open/close doors on the R10 that way. Very scary.
This is getting off the original topic, but since you brought it up:
Those were the external door controls, also known as trigger boxes. I used to get a big kick out of watching the conductor do his thing up there. Actually, until the R-15s came along, all remote door controls were externally mounted except on the BMT standards. The Triplexes had both external and internal door controls, but the internal controls could be used only if a Triplex was running by itself and not in a train.
If I remember correctly those handles were only in
some of the old IND trains, not all. Am I right?
Anyone remember?? Also I remember on those trains
the conductor had to climb onto 2 ledges (1 from
each car) between cars to open & close the doors!!
I saw conductors open/close doors on the R10 that way. Very scary.
This is getting off the original topic, but since you brought it up:
Those were the external door controls, also known as trigger boxes. I used to get a big kick out of watching the conductor do his thing up there. Actually, until the R-15s came along, all remote door controls were externally mounted except on the BMT standards. The Triplexes had both external and internal door controls, but the internal controls could be used only if a Triplex was running by itself and not in a train.
Here's an idea,
The Q could have still ran on Broadway as an express via
the Canal St. switches I always mention. It could still go
to Queensbridge, but would have to terminate at Whitehall
St. during rush hours since there are already three trains
through the Montague tunnel(N,R and M).
Then during middays(or weekends, I don't know how busy the
Brighton line is during the weekend) run the Q through the
tunnel and it can access the Brighton line via the direct
switches at DeKalb.
Now would this propose a problem for the West End line?
Does it need the M at rush hours? If not, that can go as
the Brighton express when the Q can't.
If the West End express is needed that much, you could use one of the unused designations(the rush hour W for West End?) and turn it back at 36th St(though it would be tricky) or you could even get away with it at DeKalb(via the unused south side bridge tracks, but it may not need to go that far).
This way, Broadway gets an express, the Brighton line keeps it's express and gets one on the weekends, though it changes northern destination on time of day, and the West End line could keep it's rush hour express.
Looks good on paper, as is said, but it probably wouldn't work.
Just change the current 6th Av. Q to "V", and then run the Q down Broadway to Whitehall, or maybe put in double crossover coming into the Canal St. exp. tracks, making that a terminal until the bridge opens.
One of the reasons I proposed putting the Q back on Broadway was to eliminate having three expresses on the same track.
Unless the B or D became a local.
That would still cause problems on Chrystie
The Y would probable be for the 2nd Av line below 63rd. When the 2na Av line above 63rd opens, it will be an extension of Broadway service.
If the bridge is like now, they might use the W, and cut it off arond 34th (like they did for the shuttle). Or they might send the W to Astoria, and then be justified in having the N go express. Instead of merging back into the local (the reason it doesn't go express now), it would continue to the new line. If the bridge is fully open or fully closed, then between the N and Q, one would go to Astoria, and the other to 2nd Av. If the Bway side of the bridge is open only, it would be both of the Brighton trains, Q, and D(most likely renemed "W")
You expect to see it post-mortem? Anyway, I believe that it's not right to make predictions that far into the future. It's safe to say that the Second Avenue line won't be done in thirty years, because even if all-of-a-sudden tomorrow, the required legislative bodies approve the line, it would take that long to get it done. Do you think that the line will be approved within the next five years even? After that, political climates can change. Who's to say that some scientific innovation won't make you immortal?
I went to Washington's Union Station for lunch. I saw E60 602 hauling
a bunch of mailcars and coaches on Track 17. I thought it was the Mailtrain #13. When I check a computer screen for train crews, it said #13 was on Track 27. But the train on Track 17 showed "DHD."
I asked a crew member about the meaning of DHD, but he did not know it. Then I went to Great Train Store to ask the same question. A clerk nicely told me that DHD stands for "deadhead train."
A deadhead train occurs when a station is short of coaches or railcars. It provide extra equipment to that station to fill up the need. It is not on the Amtrak schedule.
This is the first time I hear about the deadhead train.
Chaohwa
Deadhead trains have been around since the dawn of RR passenger service. As the clerk indicated to you, they are used to move empty passenger equipment from one location to another. In the steam days, this was common practice on runs from New York to Florida, where seasonal traffic was primarily in one direction; the Atlantic Coast Line joint service trains from New York to Florida, for example, had long trains in multiple sections southbound but only one train northbound on each schedule during the early portion of the winter travel season. The remaining equipment would be returned northbound on deadhead trains. Amtrak, as far as I know, only follows this practice where it owns the tracks; otherwise, it just keeps the full consist and either keeps some of the cars closed or doesn't pack the coaches and sleepers full on the more lightly travelled run. This is done because they don't own the tracks, and also because of the limited amount of motive power they have available.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The same term is used in the airline industry. When a crew (pilots or flight attendants) are in one city, but travel to another to meet their assigned flight, they are "deadheading" or known as a "deadhead crew."
Crews are grateful for the opportunity to fly that way. But one should avoid calling them 'grateful deadheads.' :-)
Rim shot!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Where does the term 'deadhead' come from anyway? I'm sure Garcia has nothing to do with this.
Deadheads are almost always present on MNCRR's off peak trains...If you have an employee id, it is a perfect place to take a nice dark quiet nap.....
I think they are called dead heads because they always run in the front, or right behind the locomotive, atleast thats how MN does it.
Speaking of deadheading, wasn't it common practice for Banker's Specials to do so over the Manhattan Bridge back in the pre-Chrystie St. days? What about Culver and West End Short Line trains?
Since I've been concerning myself with the other lines, I completely overlooked the need to improve the N Broadway Local which I represent.
Clearly, if the N line is to compete with the other lines, it must be schedule to come more often. If that means cutting back the M and R lines, so be it. The N line is so overused, one wonders why the service is so shabby.
These are my suggestions:
During Rush Hours, the N should be schedule to run every 3/4 minutes. On the other hand, the R which is under utilized should be schedule for 7 minutes. While the M should run every 10 minutes.
When standing at the 59th Avenue station, two N's should arrive at that station before a R train (a ratio 2/1). Not its current arraignment - back to back.
Can the N be a broadway express. Maybe when the Bridge is reopen. (However, I hope the Q doesn't effect our running time). Until then, the local running time isn't that bad in Manhattan.
I also propose a decrease in the running time on the #7 (7's run 5/1 of N trains). It is one of the reasons the N is so crowded when it enters the 59th Street/Lexington Avenue station.
Note: The reasons passengers prefer the N over the 7 after Queensboro Plz, that is, the next station is the connection with the fast 4/5. The 7 just can't compete with N, 4, 5 to time square.
Possible connection to LaGuardia Airport only if its is coupled with one of the 6th Avenue lines from 41st Avenue. Until then, I don't suggest it - too crowded.
Comments from N riders only.
What kind of handle you have calling yourself N Broadway Local? People have criticized me for the name The Rail Historian. I will respect yours however, I'm sure you are not a N train running Local on the Broadway BMT!!! Trains can't write on Subtalk unless your train has a microprocessor connected the Internet.
Rail Historian,
I am indeed a subway train. why? You don't like the N train (me), Historian?
New York City Transit
Going Your Way
No you mean
New York City Transit
Going out of your way
Some questions:
1.- Where is 59th Ave?
2.- The only place the N is overused is between Ditmars and Lexington Ave. Why do want to increase service to a ridiculous level for the good of only 8 stations?
3.- A decrease in service on the 7? That line is standing room only for about 18 hours of the day. How can you justify this idea?
4. - < The reasons passengers prefer the N over the 7 after Queensboro Plz, that is, the next station is the connection with the fast 4/5. The 7 just can't compete with N, 4, 5 to time square> The 4 and 5 go to Times Square? Did I miss something about the service change? Travel time from Queensborough Plz to Times Sq is about the same on either line and the 7 makes for a more convenient transfer.
5.- What means ?
Alex L., an N line Conductor
Number 5 above should have read -- 5.- What means < coupled with one of the 6th Avenue lines from 41st Avenue.>?
I hate R and #7 riders, they always complaining. How much do you want?!
People choose the N, because it goes to more important places than the R, 7, 4/5/6 put together.
Give a little
N Broadway Local
Like Where!!!!!!!
4: Yankee Stadium, Fordham University
5: Bronx Zoo, Brooklyn College, Co-Op City
6: Lenox Hill Hospital, Pelham Bay Park, City Island via Bx29
7: Shea Stadium, US Open, Worlds Fair, Hall of Scince
N: Coney Island
What is your point?????????
Alex,
All you have is hate for the average N rider who have to suffer from delays and crowded trains. Give a little #7, R, M riders. We want to get home comfortably too.
And, by the way, you mentioned the 7 as being fast as the N. How can that be Alex? The next stop on the N is 59th Street/Lexington Avenue - connections with the 4, 5, and 6.
Not only the connections between the N and the 4/5/6 are close, the #7 is extremely slow from Queens Plaza to Grand Central. That is why everyone (stupid #7 riders) jumps on the N at Queens Plaza. As some of you know, the N is already crowded to compacity. This connection just makes it worse.
Another thing, Alex! You are absolutely wrong about the N not being crowded further than 59th Street. Because of its connection with westside lines (1, 2, 3, A, B, C, D, E, Q), 4/5/6 riders transfer to the N/R (R isn't as bad) lines. As a result, the N is crowded all the way to Union Square 14th Street station.
N Broadway Local
Okay, let's go to the timetables....Let's take an arbitrary time say 0800 on a weekday morning (I'll do am, not pm, this post would go on forever and it probably will anyway)....Here are the headways....
#7 Manhattan Bound at Queensboro Plaza...2 1/2 minutes
N Manhattan Bound at Queensboro Plaza...6 minutes
R Manhattan Bound at Queens Plaza.......6 minutes
Having worked the Irt and B Divisions(BMT & IND)as a conductor, motorman, dispatcher and now motor instructor, I have first hand knowledge. Let's take a look at some of your suggestions...
1-The R underutilized? Please take a walk downstairs from Queensboro Plaza to the Queens Plaza station and you will see every R train is just as crowded as every N train from Astoria and every #7 from Main Street. The whole idea of the 63rd St tunnel is to increase service on the Queens Boulevard Corridor. Every train has a swinging load.
2-2 N's for every R at 59th St? The timetable does not bear this out, it is closer to a 1 to 1 ratio. Having worked both the N & R as a conductor, 59th St Lex is a rough station. R trains believe it or not have heavier loads. The N train in Astoria services what 6 staions?, while the R services about a dozen.
3-N as Broadway express? Personally I would love to see a return of the Broadway Express but it doesn't make alot of sense right now. By the time the N and R arrive at 14th Street, they generally have seats available. Most people who want to get to the Wall Street and City Hall area from these 2 lines make the transfer at 59th Street for the Lexington IRT. Plus instead of making one merge at the cut south of Queensboro Plaza, now they would merge once again just south of Prince Street. The ideal is to move as few switches as possible. Crossing a switch takes more time than running the train on straight iron. And believe me, you don't save a lot of time going express as opposed to local from 57th Street to Canal Street.
4-Decrease the headway of the #7's? Obviously you have not ridden a #7 in a while. Every train has a swinging load. Let's not make matters worse.
5-Most passengers do not transfer from the 7 to the N at Queensboro Plaza so they can get to the Lexington IRT. The difference from Queensboro Plaza to 59th & Lex and Queensboro Plaza to Grand Central is about 5 minutes. Stand at the Grand Central #7 platform and count how many people get off the Times Square bound train and go upstairs to the IRT (not the street or Metro North). Most people only want to change trains once, not twice. Lexington IRT bound riders generally stay on their N or #7 until they have to transfer at Lex.
(Actually I wish that fellow from Operations and planning was looking in, he could probably give you hard numbers on these things such as turnstile counts and checkers and the various riding studies they do.
I don't want to ramble on, but guess what, none of us like the trains with a crush load, but Queens is rough. If they could realisticly increase headway and running times the TA would. One other thing I didn't touch on is car availability. I dare you to find an extra 10 car train (good cars, not Bad Order being held by the barn) to give you some extra service.
With an open Manhattan Bridge, the express connection WOULD be Straight Iron and would actually simplify things between DeKalb and Pacific. No part of your post even bothered to mention the needs of Brooklyn riders and how much they would save (if going to Midtown) bypassing downtown (Brooklyn AND Manhattan) and going express via the bridge.
Since the D and the N/Q both go to 34th Street, which one will arrive first? That, of course, when the Manhattan Bridge opens.
From Dekalb Avenue: Since the D and the N/Q both go to 34th Street, which one will arrive first? That, of course, when the Manhattan Bridge opens.
Let's look at it from a stop-per-stop perspective:
DN
DeKalb AvenueDeKalb Avenue
Grand StreetCanal Street
Broadway-Lafayette14 Street
West 4 Street34 Street
34 StreetAlready been there
In addition, the N route is more direct.
When I actually see the Broadway side of the Manhattan Bridge open, we will discuss that. For now though running the N express down Broadway doesn't save much time and operationally creates less confusion. As for Brooklyn riders N trains run on an 6 minute headway coming out of the Sea Beach and then have to merge with the B at Pacific, and then the M has to merge with the R at 36th St as well. Mind you the West End gets two services (and this is a political clout subject) during the rush hours. It is not feasable to run either of these services express on the West End because there are work trains and the collector and the garbage train still on the way home and they meander along 3/4 track.
If you ask me the best solution is speeding the trains up once again and letting us become rapid trainsit once again.
(By the way, I would love to see the N run over the Bridge and express up Broadway again.)
Willy B is used all the time and of course it stands for the Williamsburg Bridge. Did you know that a gorilla in a zoo is called Willy B? He is also famous. I think we need a list of Subtalk abbreviations like BTW and others. Sometimes it is difficult to understand the postings.
The abbreviation for By The Way and others are standard internet shorthand and don't need to be repeated here.
I meant that there's no reason to list them here. Not that there's no reason to USE them here.
Is your handle a pun on Eugenius Outerbridge, the person for whom Outerbridge Crossing was named?
I've heard this name before, I didn't invent it and it did a appear to be a pun of the name. If the inventor of this name feels that I shouldn't use it then i won't
Well, Mr. Outerbridge has long since passed on, so I don't think anyone would object.
And I don't anyone could trademark "Eugenius" ;-)
Sure, you could; but I don't think you can copyright it.
You're right, you could trademark "Eugenius," but under what category?
"Eugenius, quality web postings since 1999?" ;-)
I've made web postings since 1996 (I don't think I made postings in 1995) but not under Eugenius!
Maybe, but not here; SubTalk opened on 2/27/1997. :-)
-Dave
So that's why it's not Outerbridge Bridge:)
No, that's why it's not the Outer Bridge, which is how the press usually get it.
-Hank
Yes, certain abbreviations are standard on the Internet, but what about subway-specific terms and abbreviations? The FAQ here is fantastic, but I've always thought SubTalk could use a glossary of some sort.
There are certain abbreviations, like OPTO, CBTC, MVM, BART, MUNI, BSS, etc. that I have learned since being here, but it took me while to figure them all out. I couldn't really participate in a lot of discussions at first because I didn't know what everything meant.
For people new to the board, it would be great help if they could just look up a term or abbreviation when they didn't know what it meant.
I know what Dave will say to this - that suggestions come easily but volunteers do not. I'd be happy to work on one myself, but I'd need help - I have yet to learn what SMEE stands for, for example. It is used all the time, but I've never seen anyone spell it out. I would have asked, but this board has a history of heavy criticism of people who ask 'stupid questions'...
Which is a good reason to make a Glossary. Feedback on that idea? Dave: what do you think?
I think GOH means "General Over Haul"
But what does "GO" mean like a "GO weekend"?
It takes a while to learn the lingo. I've been reading SubTalk since early last year but only started posting regularly a few months ago. In my reading(and other internet reasearch) I found out what I needed to know.
I'd be happy to contribute what I know to the "SubTalk Glossary of Acronyms".
"GO"weekend stands for General Order.This is a diversion from the normal operations of a particular line. It includes the work being done, dates and times involved, tracks out of service,diversions, supplement schedules in effect(diversion from regular schedule for the particular day)
Thank you. Another mystery solved.
Broadway El Steve; Don't feel bad. A few weeks ago I had to ask Steve what an RDO was. It turns out it means "Regular Day Off."
Larry,RedbirdR33
I can answer these (even though you know them but others don't)
OPTO: One Person Train Operation
CBTC: Communications Based Train Control
MVM: Metrocard Vending Machine
BART: Bay Area Rapid Transit (subway in San Francisco)
MUNI: It's not an acronym, it's short for municipal and it's the agency that runs trolleys and busses in San Francisco.
BSS: Broad Street Subway (In Philadelphia)
GO: General Order (subway reroutes, etc.)
SMEE: I don't know either, but it's the system used by the R10-R42 and R62-R68A cars. They can all run in one train.
MUNI: It's not an acronym, it's short for municipal and it's the agency that runs trolleys and busses in San Francisco.
It's the commonly used abbreviation for the San Francisco Municipal Railway.
-Hank
Sorry, I didn't know the official name
No need to apologize, I wasn't sure myself if it was Railway or not.
-Hank
SMEE is the braking system used on all postwar cars from the R-10s thru R-42s and revived on the R-62s and R-68s. While I don't know exactly what it stands for, it features self-lapping brakes and is easier to master than the AMUE braking system.
How do subway personel pronounce the car numbers? Would 2438 be "two four three eight," or "twenty-four thirty-eight"?
I was just curious. Thanks,
Brandon
I've always heard them pronounced only as two number sets: "sixty-twenty-three" (6023), "seven-twenty-two" (722), "ten-oh-one" (1001).
I don't how people handle oddities like Boston where rapid transit cars started with zero--i.e., 0622--"oh-six-twenty-two"?
Or five digit number like on Amtrak: 10123. I'd say "ten-one-twenty-three" but I don't know if that's how it's done.
FWIW, that's the way printing proofreaders usually say numbers for clarity and ease of reading.
In Boston, the leading "0" is pronounced "oh." So 01000 (a Seashore car!) is "oh-one-thousand."
In Baltimore, we tend to pronounce car numbers as follows:
417 = four seventeen
264 = two sixty four
1164 = eleven sixty four
4533 = forty five thirty three
6119 = sixty one nineteen
7407 = seventy four oh seven
1096 = ten ninety six
5019 = fifty nineteen
i dont know about you guys but when there is a zero in the car number i would think it better to say all the numbers out
ex. 6019
would be six-oh-one-nine
but 1408
would be fourteen-oh-eight
Any body know what kind of work car and what they use for?
Peace Out
Meaney
SIR has one, I'm not sure what it's called, but the purpose of it is to align the track. A carriage with light beams shoots at reflectors on the vehicle itself, which then lifts and moves the track.
-Hank
Hank has the answer above. Hey, I missed your URL. Can you post it again so I can check out your train pictures?
Did you get a picture of Gel Applicator car #8885 up at 180th Street yard yet?
Wayne
I have a another picture of Gel Applicator Car #8885 and will put it on soon.
Peace Out
Meaney
It's a track tamper. It lines and guages the track.
Stef: I started to respond to your question about the bridge decided to vist Brennan's web site ,couldn't find Brennan then couldn't locate your query. Guess I was lost in cyberspace.
The bridge that you refer to is the "Macombs Dam Bridge" built in 1895. At one time it was also known as the "Central Bridge."
My mother told me that whenever the Yankees would play the Giants the teams would simply walk from one stadium to the other. Those were simpler times. Today they would have to use a fleet of buses and an army of police.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for that tidbit. I wasn't sure if there was one bridge or two bridges in the vicinity of 155th St. Couldn't find Joe Brennan's page? Check the transfer station here on our enchanted webmaster's site!
-Stef
As you all are aware,there is a long overdue rebuilding of City Hall park near Park Row,Manhattan taking place. There has been great effort to restore the park as original. Now this brings up the one and only entrance for the closed City Hall loop station. Does anybody out there know if there are plans to include a IRT kiosk to keep the park restoration original?
Plans called for the restoration of the City Hall station below. But as a security risk,the planned restoration was shelved. Something about some detained suspected terrorist in a nearby prison. If anything,erect a kiosk and prevent access to the station till thing blows over. When the park restoration is finished,it will be even a bigger expense to restore the kiosk. Sub-talkers! what is your position on this?
Bill, I'd love to see the kiosk restored, but given Hizzoner's concerns I doubt it will be. After all, then someone might know there's a City Hall station and want to visit it!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What bugs me is the rebuild includes the sidewalks and entries to the City Hall BMT station. Considering the station is an island platform, and the booth is on the platform, why didn't they take the time to make the station accessible?
Instead, it'll wait until tha TA gets around to rehabbing the station, and if they happen to do it in the next 5 years, the city has done what it does best: Waste Money.
-Hank
ever since they removed the R68 from the "Q" to the "B",we have nothing but R38,R40 and R42. Will they ever send R44 or R46 to the Q, or are they waiting till the TA gets new cars. please let me know.
NO. the Q is a part time line therfore gets the older trains. as the trains get older they'll get bumped down to the Q. so you'll see an r46 on the Q in maybe 2006...
ps i did rode an r46 D train a few years ago. so there still maybe hope.
I remember during high school, there was a R46 D train(Coney Island bound) in passenger service at Ave. H.......
3TM
That was when they started with the cracked Rockwell trucks and they were used rush hours only on most 600' foot lines and the CC.
You're complaining about losing R68s and gaining R40s??? You should be rejoicing! Of course, I am partial to those lovable Slant R40s...
Wayne
Some people want the Redbirds gone in place of the R-142s because they're old, this is the first post wanting to get rid of the R-40s/42s for the same reason.
To be honest, I had the same feeling back in the mid-1970s about the R-7s/9s on the LL, but that was due in part to the MTA not maintaining anything back then so they broke down all the time. The other part was that gawdawful paint scheme they put on the 7s/9s when they went to the Eastern Division.
Well, at least they didn't paint EVERY R-7 and R-9 in that color scheme, just some of them. Dirt and grime seemed to stick to the R-7 and R-9 like glue, and soon after they were painted, they were filthy again and looked even worse than before. One modification made to the R-7/R-9 that really hurt was when they removed the wicker seats from cars 1500-1802. They DID leave them on the 1400 series cars. The fiberglas bench seats were truly uncomfortable. Ditto for the R10 and R16s.
As for car preferences, well, to each their own. The Slant R40 is definitely NOT everybody's cup of tea. My friend Ward who has accompanied me on several day trips can't stand them either - he says they look preposterous. I say fine! This world doesn't work without differences in opinion. Anyway, the R68 and R68A are very attractive trains, that is true, but they are somewhat slow. And as partial as I am to R40s, for mostly sentimental reasons, I must admit their seats are as bad as those on the old R-7s and R-9s. Anyway, I hardly ever sit down on an R40; I'm usually up at the RF window in the front.
Wayne
FWIW - I'm a major fan of R40s and their ancient relatives - the R1-R9s.
My recollection - the R40s have a more stable ride - the R1-9s bounced a bit more - but only to a point where you could sense speed a little better.
As for seating the R40s could never compete - the R1-9s had cane or wicker and padded seats and were better heated in Winter. I remember freezing my feet on R40s during the Winter and wishing for an R9.
Ah, yesh, you had to have experienced all of the above on the "E" and "F" lines way back when they both ruled there. I remember many an utterly miserable ride on a Slant R40 "F" train - winter, spring, summer and fall. Heat on in the summer. No heat in the winter. Lights half out. Lights dimmed by soot from the blowers. But the look of them was what got me. And once they got their Sumitomo GOHs, these ugly ducklings actually became somewhat beautiful.
As for the R-6s and R-7s, they were capable of breathtaking express speed, but they were supremely uncomfortable, even more so than the R40s, due to their many glitches and minor problems - no fans, some fans, heat in the summer (here we go again!) etc.. One of the strangest sights I remember seeing was in #1167. Half the fans were on, half were off, and the lights would go on and off on alternate sides of the car. This beast was on the "F" line back in 1973-74.
If you wanted maximum "bounce for the ounce", then the R10 was your train. Nothing bounced around like an R10 going full tilt.
Wayne
All things considered - the clear superior in appearence would be the R40. I think I liked them best as first delivered - deep blue doors - that classic slant.
But for nostalgia - I still prefer R1/9s.
It's been pointed out many times that the R1/9s were not well maintained. So I have all the more respect for the 40 or so years of service they provided without GOH.
As long as we're talking about sentimental favorites...
The R-1/9s fell victim to the new-cars-are-on-the-way attitude; consequently, they were sadly neglected in their later years. Riding in them was sheer joy, what with all the glorious sounds they gave off. Moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses, throbbings, and the most beautiful sound of all - the bull and pinion gears singing away at speed. What can I say - the aural aspect of subway trains reaches my ears first before the visual particulars. Oh, and if the first car was an R-1 or R-4 with no headlights, it was even more fun with the tunnel lights providing the only illumination.
You all know how I feel about the champions of the A line, the R-10s. Personally, I didn't think they rocked and swayed as much as some people do. A lot has been said about their noise level, but it wasn't that bad in those days. Nothing will ever top an express dash up CPW on an A train of those speedsters, although the slant R-40s came mighty close. I did notice one thing: the sound of the door locks as the air escaped was the same pitch as their compressors, A flat.
As for R-68s on the Q, with all due respect, I feel that line is better off without them. The slant R-40s are quicker and make good use of that advantage on the Brighton line. I did get lucky once or twice with the R-68s when they were there and got trains with the half cab facing out. Too bad they don't do that anymore. Come to think of it, the R-68s did run faster before that ill-fated modification was done to eliminate field shunting.
[If you wanted maximum "bounce for the ounce", then the R10 was your train. Nothing bounced around like an R10 going full tilt.]
Also, if you wanted to go temporarily deaf, the R10 was your train.
I say, keep the Redbirds until they die of cancer. I had a dream about them last night, and that I greeted them the way I would talk to my 10-month-old nephew: hello Redbirds, hello Redbirds. That's what I did last fall, and that's what I'll do come October during my Ride the Redbirds excursions.
Let me know when you'll be in town! I'll schedule a day trip and maybe we can get a ride on that #7 or maybe an R38 on the "A" or (if it's a weekday) maybe a Slant R40 on the "Q". The hot dogs at Nathan's are waiting...
Wayne
What's the likelyhood of catching a better train at Far Rockaway on a weekday? My use of Better Train should be obvious (If you don't get it, it means R-38). I'm going to that line over again because I used to ride the R-44 there. I'll also be taking the LIRR.
I'm flying into LGA at about 2 PM on Monday, Oct. 25, and will be in the city until Friday morning. One day will be spent in Jersey with my sister and her kids, most likely Tuesday or Thursday. Wednesday the 27th would probably be our best bet, especially if there is anything planned for the 95th anniversary of Day One (Lo-Vs on the 42nd St. shuttle, perhaps?). I'm setting that day aside for some serious subway riding, particularly Redbirds; however, anything goes. Hopefully, the Q and its slant R-40s will be running express on the Brighton again. Why on earth was the express track reworked AGAIN?!? Was there a problem with the welded rail?
Thanks for the offer! I wonder if we'll talk more about music than subways.
Nothing is wrong with the new welded rail. They are currently replacing the older, worn out parts of the express tracks.
Thanks for the clarification. Weren't the express tracks completely redone not too long ago? I rode on a Q in October of 1997, and the express run from Prospect Park to Church Ave. was smoooooooth. The rest of the way? Well......
OK, October 27th it is! I will either take a sick day or a personal day. My boss knows I do field trips periodically, I'll just tell him I have another one. I took one July 21st, spending the day knocking around the Bronx IRT (and riding its wealth of Redbirds) with Dave and Mark. I've been known to start these trips EARLY, often leaving on the 6:32 or 6:43 train from Babylon, so I'll be in town for the day.
Five rolls of film to boot.
How's about a morning #6 Express run from E177th-Parkchester to 3rd Avenue at the RF window of an R29, R36ML or R36WF? The afternoon could be a perfect time to grab a "Q". And we MUST run the 7th Avenue from Chambers to 96th aboard an R33 #2.
Wayne
You picked a good day for a field trip. July 21, that is. A red-letter date in my life if there ever was one. I think you know what I'm referring to.
Anyway, we can work out the details privately. BTW, I always include a West Side IRT express jaunt whenever I'm in the city, along with the obligatory CPW joyride on an A train. I was also planning to take a 5 up to Dyre Ave after seeing how fast it can go up Lexington Ave. I will have my camera with me as well.
And if they do end up running the Lo-Vs on the shuttle, I will be there!!
And I despise those R40's. The R68 is a vastly superior car, from a passenger's standpoint. Yeah, they're sluggish, but I'll take them over R40's any day.
Definitely the chairs are better! R-68 seating is second only to R-44 seating in comfort.
So, might you say that newer cars(R-44,46,62,68) reflect the desire to get you there in comfort instead of get you there with speed?
From what I read, it seems that cars like the R-38's, R-40's or WF cars were fast but not so comfy. Now you've got your R-68's. Slow as the dickens, but with comfy seats.
Which do you think is more important?
Speed, speed, and more speed. This whole business of no field shunting has taken the rapid out of rapid transit, IMHO.
I feel people want both. Speed and comfort. To prove the point here in Philly our M-4 cars are fast and comfortable. Another example is the PATCO High Speed line. As I said before it is a shame but the powers that be in the NYCTA just don't beleive in having fast subway trains anymore. I have quite a few of Marks subway videos and you can see cars on city streets that are going faster then the El trains above. And were talking city traffic.
I stand on subway trains almost without exception at the railfan window unless I'm exhausted, so comfort hasn't been much of an issue. I have my own feelings about the MTA's philosophy regarding speed which I'll keep to myself.
For me it's comfort, I'm never in such a rush that I would want to sacrifice comfort for speed.
Wait a minute. Do people really find R-68 seats more comfortable than R-38 seats? (Not R-40 seats -- those are truly evil.) The older seats fit the shape of my back much better, and I'm not forced to adapt to somebody else's body size. (And they're not painted colors that give me a headache.)
I prefer spppppppppppppppeeeeeeeeeeedddddddddddddddd over comfort!
A Express To Far Rockaway is one of my favorites.
N Broadway Local
if its an R68 you want then ride the D. If the Q line is operating R-32-40m-42 then ride the D its only a local train and the time saved is only 5-7 minutes. 9 times out of 10 these two trains are back to back after Prospect Park right up to Rockerfeller Ctr.
I assume you have R32's on the Q, not R-38's.
The Q is a part time line, it gets the cast offs.
Also they won't get R 46's because they are all handled by Jamaica Barn. Maybe if the Q goes through 63rd Street and out to Continental will they receive the R 46s.
I recollect that some of the southern Brooklyn BMT el lines (West End and Culver, even in the 1950's (maybe earlier?) had railings with "walkways" along their outside tracks. They were built presumably for workmen to use, when a train went by. If I am correct, I recollect from photos of the really old els in Brooklyn and Manhattan that there were no such safety features, and the outer track was at the edge of the elevated structure.
How did did repair and maintenance people safely work on those els without any such walkways with railings? When were they required (and existing els upgraded)?
I also recollect that the BMT Brighton line, from West 8th St. double-deck structure to past Brighton Beach, had no walkways and railigs in the 1950's. The only extensions beyond the track edges on that line were at signals, where there were short sections of walkways with railings. The curve and descent of Brighton trains from the upper level towards Ocean Parkway were interesting, as was the curve from Brighton Beach towards Sheepshead Bay. It was also strange to be standing on Coney Island Ave. and see a Brighton local approaching Brighton Beach and go through the curve on a tilt towards the street with no railing! Even more interesting was seeing a train switch from the express to the local track just about over the CIA ("aiming" towards the street below, and then continue on that unprotected curve into BB station).
When were they finally added to the Brighton el? Why so much after they existed on the West End and Culver? I'd imagine with safety considerations, tey would have been added to all el's long before the 1950's.
Mike Rothenberg
Does the MTA actually update their web site? There was no notice today posted either on the web or at the stations that the Southbound C was skipping stations between Utica Avenue and Broadway-East New York due to track work (the information came via an announcement from the conductor AT Utica Avenue). Also, the schedule information, on the MTA web site, for the C trnin does not reflect the fact that there IS weekend service in Brooklyn. What's up?
Referring to note about lack of notice.
Check out the MTA schedules on http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/service/ and see the mess of most of the C line schedules.
Can someone in town call the line manager and post his response on Sub-talk?
Some other schedules are also in a bit of a mess. The 'F' was only posted on-line last week for the first time since April, and in two sections!
A: The Map hasn't been updated since at least January
B: According to them, the B makes no longer goes to 168th St, but doesn't stop in Manhattan, Queens or Brooklyn
C: They have the D line stations and schedules for either the F or Q(I can't recall which)
D: THEY STILL HAVEN'T FIXED THE MANHATTAN BRIDGE!!:):):):)
They haven't updated the bus schedules and they haven't updated the changes with line managers.
But the data for the C-train was wrong.
The work shown was only on the A-train and then it said it was going to be at night only.
When the Williamsburg bridge reopens, will all of the R40m and R42 return to ENY yard or reamin put?
They are supposed to return.
Damn!!!!!!!!!!!!! Then I wont get a chance to see them on the Q line......... I had a chance this summer too
Maybe the R-42/32 mix will wind up on the M. That I'd like to see. I also wonder when the clearance testing for the new trackage will begin. Looking forward to see them test 75 ft. equipment on the rebuilt curve.
That train will probably be taken apart and all the cars assigned back to their original lines. I would assume all R40m/R42's would be put back onto the J/M/L/Z lines.
FWIW, I think all R42's should be assigned to the E line and the L line should be completely R32 (until the R143 can take over). The R42 has slightly wider doors, easing loitering time in each station, and has an easily recognizable front-end route sign that can be seen a lot farther away than the little LED sign on the R32. The L line never runs with another line, so this problem wouldn't be a factor on the Canarsie line (all trains have to be L's, so who cares if you can't see that little sign). The E, OTOH runs on tracks with other lines (F, C).
I would agree with that it is running along 8Av with the C. Unless the F receives R32's again..........
It would be kind of neat to see the L with R32 cars.....
L: 14St-Canarsie
Do they have side signs on the R32's for the eastern division lines??
3TM
Yes, they have all the lines.
Yes, all IND/BMT cars are equipped with signs for all routes, A thru Z.
The doors on the 42's would have to be rebuilt. They are not used to the types of crowds on the main lines. With all the diverted passengers on the L line they are breaking down all the time.
Will the rest of the El be able to handle the 75ft cars???
The rest of the new bridge? As for the narrow straight span, I hear rumors that the cars rock sideways more, but I don't know about that. The rumor that they were wider was just disproved.
Then there's the curves. Crescent is the one that is completely forbidding. Myrtle looks about just as tight, and a bicentennial fantrip (with the bicentennial R-46's) was said to go to Metropolitan, but maybe they wouldn't go there with regular passengers.
I hope they take this time out to TEST them, instead of relying on rumors.
I would love to see them do what they do on the 5. Have a few new cars on the line for OPTO service. If they can clear the Myrtle curve, then they could also now run all the way to Bay Pkwy (6 car train)in rush hours (use pool of uncoupled cars Franklin shuttle will use). Nights and Weekends, 2 car OPTO shuttles. (I would rather have weekend service up 6th or 8th Av., but I hear nothing of any plan to do that)
Believe it or not, the R-68's have all the routes and destinations for the eastern div. (except for the replacement signs).
I thought there was a problem with the 75ft cars having problems in the Nassau tunnels??????
3TM
Another rumor. (tunnel lights) I saw an R-46 set in Chambers St. middle for a movie filming a couple of years ago.
What is the best and quickest way to go to Staten Island without taking the ferry?
I would probably be taking the F train from Jamaica. I know I could take the F, transfer to a B at Herald then get off at 36st, transfer to an R then take it down to 86th/4th ave in Bay Ridge. Then I could take a bus over to Staten Island.
I'm using a fun pass. Is that 86th station for the R in a bad area? Is Bay Ridge a safe area?
I usually don't go to Brooklyn that's why I'm asking.
I don't want to take the ferry because it's slow and crowded, and there's no A/C on there.
If you don't mind the long ride through the Montague St. tunnel, you can change for the R at Queens Plaza or 34th St. and just take it to 86th St. from there. There's no problem with the area.
There may not be any man-made A/C on the SI ferry but the breeze on the upper deck is just as good if not better. I like that ride almost as much as a Slant-R40 downhill with no GTs.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Take the F to Queens Plaza, transfer to the R. Take the R to Whitehall and take the ferry. This will take less time than your suggested route as well as leaving you with easier access to SI buses, since they almost all go the ferry terminal. Your routing is only faster if you need to be near the bridge. As for A/C, go stand outside - there's always a strong breeze heading to SI.
It might be easier for you to take the F to 4th Ave, then transfer to the R train to 86th Street. It may not be the fastest way, but you would have to change trains only once. I have been down to Bay Ridge, it's a nice neighborhood.
I don't know if you've made the trip yet but, 86 th St. area is fine,
and the breeze and view from the ferry is finer (23 minutes long, not including boarding time).
Why do you need A/C on the Ferry??
As soon as you pull out from the slip, the ship generated wind alone is enough to cool off. I looked foward to my 20 min ferry trip. The hot heat/humidity would drop off once we got underway.
do what you want but i will just say that bay ridge is one of the nicest places in brooklyn
I THINK this has been discussed before, but...Why, exactly did the BMT,IRT (as private cos..)and the city ( as operator of the IND) never put headlights on their trains?? Why did it take until the 1950s until somebody at the TA realized that the subway mostly operates underground and in the dark, and that the trains might actually need headlights?? The H&M had headlights of some kind at the get-go, and most other underground rapid transit did too..... Did they think the tiny marker lights were sufficient, or was it a matter of money?? (not that he headlights make THAT much of a difference...)
They never though they were needed, and I agree.
Having stood at the front of probably thousands of trains without the headlights, visibility with just the tunnel lights was quite good without them. From the dark motorman's cab, it was probably even better.
Anyone authorized to be on the tracks had colored lanterns, more visible without headlights than with them.
Plus you didn't have the distraction and dark vision spoiling problems of oncoming trains' headlights blinding you.
I would rather ask why the decisions to install headlights was made.
I completely disagree. One of the first thing you learn in track Safety Training is that you can hear only one train at a time. Without headlights, you may never know the second one is coming. Besides, without headlights, the safety vest just don't work.
But the system operated safely for six decades without them.
You could drive around in car without working tail lights, and not get rear ended. Is it safe? no. Same thing here - yes, maybe the system DID operate without many incidents. BUT if the addition of headlights makes the system *safer* than it is worthwhile - you can't have too much safety.
For most of my experience in Boston, even though the trains have headlights, they are used on a limited basis and those that do use themm turn them out before entering a station. I haven't ridden the lines in two years but I think that is still the case.
What has always perplexed me was the fact that NYC train operators have no choice in the turning on or off of headlights. Except for a car I saw in the Transit Museum I forgot which one it was, there is a switch that says white and red light.
I know the LIRR have seperate switches on the M class cars for headlights and marker reds.
Eventhough the headlights are controlled by the reverser, the headlights can be turned off. The #22 circuit breaker feeds the headlights, tail lights and speed indicator. The train operators were actually ordered by supervision to drop the #22 circuit breaker during the day about a month ago during the power crisis on the J and M on the structure. They also had to operate in series speed.
I can't see why the headlights would have done much to conserve energy, aren't they low voltage(37 1/2volts)?. Operating in Series I could see using much less energy. I don't see car body lights turned off once a train is out of the tunnel done too often which could have saved plenty of power..
The headlights don't amount to much power. That's what happens
when non-technical people hand down technical decisions.
Plus people forget to turn the switch back on and you wind up with
trains in tunnels with no tail lights.
I remember seeing a Queens-bound E train of probably R-6s heading past the southbound platform at 42nd St. with the headlights of the last car still on. Oops!
As for being blinded by an oncoming train, while it could happen where there is a temporary absence of a crash wall between tracks, it would most likely occur on the original Contract One portions of the IRT, where there is no crash wall between the express tracks.
Once in a while on the Canarsie, the motorman would shut off the headlights just after leaving 6th Ave. on an 8th Ave-bound train. This happened only on trains of R-7/9s, not R-42s or BMT standards.
This is one of my pet peeves. Everytime we make something foolproof so T/Os and C/Rs canot make mistakes, when it fails, Car Equipment gets charged. Same with the new 'voting' system. If a bone-head T/O gets teamed up with a equally intelligent C/R and they both vote on the wrong side, guess who will get charged for the mistake?
I was just wondering if anyone knew what the final design of the R-142 looks like. There are two different designs on Bombardier's website. This is the first one, which I saw a while ago on the site:
This is the second one, which I only noticed more recently. It looks almost identical to the 110A:
Does anyone know which is the final design?
I look on the Bombadier site a couple of days ago and saw the bottom one myself. I want to know what the Kawasaki R142 look like. Is there a Kawasaki site where there a model of the R142?
What is the URL to the Bombadier website?
Thanks,
Brandon
Their name followed by .com
Click Here
I hope it's the first. Haven't we learned the hard way that a tiny electronic route display doesn't cut it? The first has a nice, big 5. (Also, the red and black front of the second looks kind of silly, IMO.)
I hope it is the first one as well. But the second resembles the R110A, so who knows??????
3TM
Did the NYCTA/MTA ever order prototype cars for new technologies like the R-110 A/B for other cars?
The R11 was a prototype for the new technology of using stainless steel cars. But that car was intended to be ordered in large numbers if/when the 2nd Ave. line opened. There also was a converted R9 used to test new technologies in an electronic PA system and flourescent lights built in the early 1940's (car 1575?)
I believe that was the R7A that was rebuilt to be the R10 Prototype.
-Hank
I believe that either in the late 70's or very early 80's the TA had a test train running on the Times Square Shuttle I vaguely remember hearing something about it when I was a kid
Early '60s - there was an automated train running on track 4(?). It burned in April(?) 1964. The cars, I believe, were modified R-22s.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If you're curious about the automated shuttle, read: IRT Grand Central/Times Square Shuttle.
-Dave
Yes, my mistake. Never having rode the r1-9 cars makes tham all the same to me.
Well, that's forgiveable, since the R-1/9s did look very much alike, except for some minor cosmetic differences. 1575 looked like an R-10 after it was rebuilt, but mechanicaly it remained an R-7A and stuck out like a sore thumb when running in a train of sister prewar units.
All they have to do is use flip-dot's WITH the LED's. Then, you'd have maximum visibility underground (glowing LED, more clear than the rollsigns), and outside (flipdots, but bigger than on the R-32/38, of course). Just look at the new buses.
The electronic route display in front of the R-110A is a lot better than the R-32/8 crap. It's bright, big and even has the color of it's line. I hope it's the second one, or the first one with a digital sign.
It also looks like the IRT is going to lose it's railfan windows.
If the window on the door to the operator's cab isn't covered, it doesn't matter.
We know, we know. If there were an extra window into the cab, say to the left of the cab door, that would be acceptable.
A couple of weeks ago, a bus driver posted a message that he spotted a mixed train of R-32/R-42 cars at the Kings Highway station. On Thursday the 5th, I, too saw this train at about 6:30 pm. (Brighton bound) It's been somewhat elusive, since I take this line everyday, but I guess this oddball mixed consist is still around.........
Also, this mix was listed in this month's ERA Bulletin, (but on the N line) so it must really be true.
There is a mix train of 6 R32's and 4 R40M's running on the N line. I saw it on the Manhattan-bound express track at 59th St. last thursday morning at approx. 7:15 AM
What were the numbers of those cars?
Nick C
As of 8/9/99 10amish it was southbound on the N at Queensboro Plaza.
How much horsepower is a LIRR loco. Only the one with the front mount
engine has a prime mover right? The other only has a HEP.
The GP38-2's produce 2000 hp, the MP15AC's make 1,500 hp, the new DE30AC's and DM30AC's make 3000 hp. The Alco FA's and the EMD F7 power cars produce HEP for the coaches using a Penske engine/generator set. The original prime movers and traction motors have been removed. So if a train is bracketed by a Dash 2 and a MP15AC, the loco on the east end has the prime mover and the one on the west end has the HEP. On those occasions where the Dash 2 has to make a runaround because the speed control on the power pack is not working, both loco's are on the point.
Horsepower is ironic in that Watt invented it.
For everyone who wanted to ride it, the B is running express on the N line for the next three weekends from Fri night to early Mon morning.
36th St -- 59th St -- Coney Island
Oooooooohhhhhhhh Nooooooooooooo!
N Broadway Local
The BX lives!!! And no, not a 3-car set of BMT standards with a motorless trailer sandwiched in the middle, either.
They are two lines I hate the worse: The R (very slow - breakdowns) and the B (always gets priority at the Pacific Street Station.
N Broadway Local
8/9/99 9:05P
I saw one of those paste up notices about this and I could swear it included Kings Highway. Does this mean 36th st,59th st,Kings Highway,Coney Island?? I saw the notice at 34th St & 6th Ave.
Excluding yard spurs, are there any locations in the current system, other than the junction at the Myrtle and Broadway Lines, that main line switching require crossing of an active track to get to another line?
I know the old Manhattan Els were filled with such crossings and that the Lexington Avenue El track crossed both the Broadway Brooklyn Line (near Gates Avenue Station) and the Myrtle Ave El (near Grand Avenue), which was the last such junction abandoned?
I know and this probably doesn't count that on the Lenox Line, the 2 has to cross over in order to go to the Bronx
And the 5 has to cross the New Lots local tracks to get to and from the Flatbush line.
-Hank
Who designed that? A huge bottleneck, IMO. The 2, 3, and 5 all have to share a short section of track.
Trust me, It is no picnic during rush hours. Especially during the evening rush hours when the 3 and 5 come in simultaneously at Franklin. There is 1 out of 10 chance the 3 will go before the 5 at that crossing.......
3TM
Is the problem with all the crowding on the Lexington Avenue line one of unused capacity or simply too many people using the line?
I think it is the second one. When the 5 is not running, there is usually a crowd at Franklin waiting for the 4. I also think that the signal and track maintainers feel that it would be better to send the 5 first because a 2 is more than likely to be right behind the 3 and this would not cause delays along the Nostrand Ave. line.....
3TM
If you're talking about the portion which actually runs beneath Lexington Ave., the reason for all the crowding is because the 2nd Ave. line hasn't been built yet.
Actually the 2 line cross to go to Brooklyn not to the Bronx.
3TM
Although you were just asking about subway or el lines the LIRR Has something like Myrtle/Bway at Mineola where the Oyster Bay trains have to cross over opposite direction tracks on their spur.(which by the way is right on a RR crossing) W/B mainline trains often are held just east of the spur for the Oyster Bay train to switch over.
[Crossovers on the LIRR]
Also at Hicksville, Bethpage and Babylon. And at Valley Stream, Probably at other junctions I haven't thought of.
In fact, except for Jamaica and Winfield flyovers are probably the exception on the LIRR.
[ In fact, except for Jamaica and Winfield flyovers are probably the
exception on the LIRR. ]
The PW flies over the mainline east of Harold. That would be a pretty messy situation without the separation..
I was thinking Port Wash when I said Winfield. I guess I should've said Harold.
[ I was thinking Port Wash when I said Winfield. I guess I should've
said Harold. ]
Well, winfield has a flyover also, from the main line to the (now abandoned) Rock Beach branch. Does anyone know the status of the short tunnel portion, where Westbound Rock Beach trains used to go under the mainline? Riding down the mainline, you can see the ramps going down there, but does anyone know if the tunnel itself is sealed? Is it also filled? or is it still open? I'd imagine that if it was open, it would be filled with makeshift housing. I saw some of that under some of the overpasses on the Lower montauk on Friday..
I would say the Rockaway Branch junction is White Pot. Winfield is where the Port Wash leaves the Main. Actually, I don't think there are any switches there any more, the separation taking place nearer Harold.
What about at Divide Twr? AM rush and all the trains running wrong rail have some nice cross overs MainLine/PortJeff?
They have a flyover at Hillside (where the Babylon line goes off) and a flyunder where the Far Rockaway/Long Beach lines leave Jamaica.
Wayne
That's right, I almost forgot about the Far Rockaway branch that crosses over the Long Beach/Babylon tracks just east of Valley Stream station.
Doug aka BMTman
Plus the West Hempstead trains which stop at Valley Stream effectively cross two mains to get to the West Hempstead branch--going east they cross:
Long Beach Westbound
Babylon Eastbound
Babylon Westbound
in that order. If Long Beach trains use the Montauk (vs. Atlantic) line into Jamaica, they have a similar situation west of Valley Stream.
[ Although you were just asking about subway or el lines the LIRR Has
something like Myrtle/Bway at Mineola where the Oyster Bay trains have
to cross over opposite direction tracks on their spur.(which by the ]
The LIRR has this in many places. Also just as notable is Queens Interlocking, which controls the crossover of all eastbound traffic and westbound Hempstead branch trains. (i.e. west of the interlocking, it is 4 mainline tracks, east of the interlocking, it is 2 mainline tracks on the north, and 2 hempstead tracks on the south.
I think the original poster means what they call going "against the current", in which a (for example) westbound train branch train crosses the eastbound track to continue off to the left. The Franklin Avenue IRT doesn't meet this requirement.
The Loop in Chicago is full of these at every merger and split (Lake, State St. South, State St. North). I do not believe there are any in NYC, other than the Myrtle crossing off Broadway. Also, in Philadelphia, the northbound Chestnut Hill West line goes across the southbound main track.
Carl Rabbin is right in his description of 'grade crossing.' But in addition to Broadway/Myrtle, there's a grade crossing north of 135th Street on Lenox Avenue; Bronx trains coming into Manhattan cross the northbound 148th-Lenox Terminal track and vice versa.
Those are the only two live grade crossings on the New York system.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Another good example of an 'against the current' grade crossing would be the Brown Line/Red Line split just North of Belmont in Chicago (Clark Jct.).
At Clark Jct., a northbound Ravenswood 'L' train crosses over from track #4 (northbound outside track) to track #3 (northbound inside track) then accoss track #2 (southbound inside track) and track #1 (southbound outisde track) to gain entrance to the Ravenswood branch. This is all at grade.
It is an interesting junction, in that the cross-over from track #4 to track #3 (equipped w
At Clark Jct., a northbound Ravenswood 'L' train crosses over from track #4 (northbound outside track) to track #3 (northbound inside track) then accoss track #2 (southbound inside track) and track #1 (southbound outisde track) to gain entrance to the Ravenswood branch. This is all at grade.
It is an interesting junction, in that the cross-over from track #4 to track #3 (equipped with turnouts) takes the train onto track #3 for a short distance, then the crossing of track #2 and track #1 is a cross-over without a turnout (i.e. the trains can't switch to track #2 or track #1).
This grade crossing is a major bottleneck during the evening rush hour, as trains on tracks 1, 2 & 3, must be held in order to "line-up" a northbound Ravenswood move.
Jim K.
Chicago
Thank you, that is what I meant. Although it is also now more apparent the value of the IND design when one considers all the problems that even the "same way crossings" produce.
Does anyone know the New York City List of now removed Grade Crossings on the ELs
I assume you mean the train has to cross in front of opposing traffic--not simply switching between tracks in the same direction of traffic.
I seem to recall there was such a situation at 149th and Lex for #5 trains going from Lex to White Plains Road. Is that still there?
I don't ever recall a "crossing at grade" at 149th for the #5 to get to/from the Lexington Line. Everything there is grade separated.
Must be talking about the 2 grade crossing between 135 and 145Sts.......
3TM
I don't know if this couts, but the Blue line (light rail) in Los Angles crosses a Railroad spur at grade. I don't know how much the spur is used, but obviously enough to justify maintaining the dimonds.
There is a cross-over just north of President Street station on the Flatbush Line where the #2 and #5 trains must pass over the New Lots Line's #3 and #4 tracks.
Doug aka BMTman
The 2 doesn't have to cross anything. And the 4 doesn't need to be crossed. Of course, when the 4 runs with the 3 on the same track, the 5 isn't running so it's not a problem.
There were three grade crossings in Coney Island that lasted beyond the Lexington Avenue closing. East of West Eighth Street station on the lower level, Brighton locals and Culver trains had a grade crossing. That was eliminated as part of the recapture project that put IND Concourse service on the Culver.
And the West End and Sea Beach joined with a grade crossing north of the old two-track bridge across Coney Island Creek and another between the bridge and the Stillwell Avenue station (the four tracks on the ramp up to the station had incoming trains on the two west tracks and outgoing trains on the two eastmost tracks). Some years after the Creek was filled in, the crossing became four track and is now really two parallel two-track lines with connections. West Ends stay on the two west tracks and the Sea Beach stays on the two east tracks.
In the original configuration, a West End, for example, would leave track H (8), cross over to one of the two downramp tracks, go across the bridge, and then cross the southbound Sea Beach track to go to the West End structure. Sea Beaches would come up the ramp on either of the west tracks and cross to tracks A or B (1 or 2). Threading through all the switches was a lot of fun to watch.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The creek wasn't filled in. It's still a bridge, just four tracks and cannot open for navigation. It doesn't matter since anything small enough to navigate the creek would probably dissolve in it.
As long as the creek doesn't catch on fire....
Only in Cleveland....
-Hank
Go BROWNS!!!!!!!!!!!
3TM
The creek wasn't filled in.
Actually, it WAS filled in, but not at this point. Coney Island Creek used to run all the way to Sheepshead Bay; the portion between Shore Road in Sheepshead Bay and Shell Road was filled in many years ago.
anything small enough to navigate the creek would probably dissolve in it.
Now THAT'S a colorful and accurate description!
--Mark
the body of water between Shell Road and Shore Boulevard WAS filled in, but I think that at that time the whole thing was called the C.I. Channel, not Creek.
I heard that the R142/R142As have a capability to create 4, 5(normal) or 6 car units in the format of ABBA, ABBBA and ABBBBA.
If that is true, maybe one can expect to see them on the #7 soon, and operate 11 cars year round.
Nick C
They will be mats as delivered, as I understand it. There will be several other configurations other than the standard 5-car sets. I've posted the groups several times, and they are also on-line at www.bombardier.ca
-Hank
I think that there are supposed to be two 9 car sets(3train) and two 11 car sets(7train). I think that there are supposed to one 6 car set.....
3TM
We all know that the R30 did not have any A/C, but did they have type of heating system or was the window closed during the winter months?
3TM
All cars have heat, usually provided by large resistors under the seats. Som cars have overhead heat as well.
-Hank
We'll treat the R27, R30 and R30A as a single entity here:
Heating was manufactured by Midland-Ross, and located under the seats and in the plenum. Under-seat heating wattage ranged from 3340 watts to 3570 watts; plenum heaters H1 was 1140 watts, H2 & H3 were 570 watts.
Ventilation was six Westinghouse 23" axiflo blowers. R30 #8550 was equipped with six Vapor Corp. dual flow ventilating test fans.
As for the windows, most cars had their windows closed in the winter; I would assume this was the crew's job to check.
Above technical information courtesy of Passenger Car Data 1947-1968
Wayne
Are they going to be delivered in singles (similar to R62/R62A/R68/R68A), married pairs (like the R42s) or sets of 4 (R44/R46)....
BTW, 212 doesn't seem right, assuming that many of them are going to be used on the "L" and "M", both of which use 8-car trains...Joe listed on his web site claiming 216 on one page and 212 on another. Unless, if the "L" uses 10-car trains.....
My bet is that they will be numbered in the 3000s, something like 3011 to 3222 (or 3226, if 216 cars) or something on the thereabouts.
Is there a web site to look at the R-143 prototypes?
Nick C
Hey Nick, here is the site of R143 look like.
Peace Out
Meaney
That's a mockup. I'd expect the cars will come in married pair (2-car)configurations, as that will allow maximum flexability on the lines they run on. The eastern division of the BMT uses (maximum) 8-car trains, the rest of the IND-BMT system uses (maximum) 10-car trains. But they certainly may arrive in a combination of 4-car and 2-car sets. I don't think we'll see orders for single cars again anytime soon. The R62/68s were order as singles because the horrid maintainence that was performed when they were ordered assured the TA of maximum availability. With the maintainance problems disappearing over time, and car reliability increrasing dramatically, the cars are being linked together semi-permanantly.
-Hank
the 143's are to be 4 car sets.
Has anyone seen the R-110B lately?
Also, any sighting of #3006 and his mates, or is the group #3004-#3005-#3006 totally lost?
Nick C
I've been in town about 7 times this yer and I only saw them once at the end of February on an uptown A at 42nd Street.
Here's one. Why do some stations have signs reading "R-110B" hanging over the side of the ceiling?
[ Here's one. Why do some stations have signs reading "R-110B" hanging
over the side of the ceiling? ]
I think you're referring to the conductor's indication boards. I think that there are special ones for the R110B's, because since they are a different length (67'), the conductors end up in a different location. Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but for 75' cars, the conductor ends up at about 300' (75*4), for the 60' cars, he ends up at 5*60=300'. For the 110B, he ends up at about 268' (67 * 4).
[ Here's one. Why do some stations have signs reading "R-110B" hanging
over the side of the ceiling? ]
I think you're referring to the conductor's indication boards. I think that there are special ones for the R110B's, because since they are a different length (67'), the conductors end up in a different location.,
Ah, the BMT's revenge (heh, heh, heh).
When the R27's came in, special car stop markers were installed for R-types. i.e., [8/R] in addition to the round or baseball diamond shaped BMT markers.
I don't recall whether they had these on the Eastern Division earlier for the R16's or whether they used the BMT markers.
There is a photo in Under the Sidewalks of New York of both types of markers, supposedly at Canal St. on the Nassau St. line. I'm sure the 6/R markers were added when the R-16s arrived at least, or even when those thirty R-10s were sent over.
< I'm sure the 6/R markers were added when the R-16s arrived at least, or even when those thirty R-10s were sent over. >
I don't know about the Eastern Division. I remember when the R-16s were the only post-war cars on the BMT, but have no relocation of "R" markers c.1957. Doesn't mena they weren't there--just don't recall.
But I distinctly remember them being added on the Southern Division around 1960.
Amazingly enough, there is a Conductor assigned to the R-110B for Tuesday, 8/10 at 0800. I don'y know why, but I would suggest that anyone interested look for it on the road tomorrow.
I was at Euclid on the A.M. today. No 110B, but plenty of R.T.O. Superintendents!
Anyone seen #1909 on either the #3 or GCT "S" recently? Saw a four car set, all with early 1900-numbers on them nine days ago.
Nick C
1909 is sitting on the scrap line at 207th St Yard right now. The car has a nice gash in her side following her derailment on Hunts Point Av on 11/24/96. The cause was a defective switch. 1716 (coupled to 1909) sustained some minor damage as well, but returned rather quickly.
1909's future is uncertain. Anyone here know if that car's going to be repaired and put back on the road?
-Stef
Oh, those R62s and R62A too - so very vulnerable to side-impact injury. Back after the HP incident occurred, I saw a very brief snippet of news footage, showing 1909 leaning against the curtain wall at about a 30-degree angle. No damage was visible - it had to be on the side away from the camera. Anyway - Stef would know this - the point of impact - was it through a window, door, or between? We all remember the awful damage done to #1437, 1439 and 1440 back in '91. #1440 didn't shear in half but it came damn close to it. The one wall was almost touching the other and the floor rose up to fold back the seats on one side. And #1439 looks like it took a very bad hit towards the #2 end judging by its bowed roof in the photo in the IRT Lexington section.
Wayne
Well, I didn't see the footage nor have I seen the car, but I thought that the car had a gash in an area below a window. What about it, Wayne?
A friend of mine has photos of the cars on the scrap line at 207th St. Let me do the research and I'll figure out what's going on with 1909. If the damage is severe, then I guess we won't see 1909 join her companions on the 3 anytime soon, nor will their be a linking of cars 1906-1910.
Question: If an R40 can be brought back from the brink of death, (4461/4260), why can't an R62 be repaired in such a manner? Perhaps parts of the wrecks from Union Sq could be used to repair 1909.
Just a thought.
Stef
The footage I saw was VERY brief; not more than five seconds, taken from what I presumed to be the end of the south end of the station, looking down the express track. I could not make out the unit number. It wasn't until it was posted here on SubTalk that I learned of it.
Anyway, it is more than likely a case of frame damage that has #1909 on her death bed. Any side or lateral impact will cause that (unless, of course, you're a BMT Standard, then it's the pillars or the curtain wall that will suffer). Now, #4461 and #4260 - the original #4260 has a very deep gash right ahead of the third door from the "A" end, cab (starboard) side. His nose was unscathed, but the curtain wall penetrated the side of the frame. #4461 suffered massive crush damage to the soft body parts for a distance of seven feet, six inches. Her anticlimber was damaged BUT this device absorbed the blow and distributed the shock evenly through the frame, which was not compromised. It is probably for this reason that the decision to salvage was made. #4664, the other car involved in the Williamsburg Bridge crash, was telescoped seventeen feet. The impact bowed and spread the frame outward, rendering it a total loss. A similar fate befell #8884. The body was not penetrated but suffered a fairly significant dent from roof to floor, and, again, the frame was bent.
They tried to move him but he was bent in such a way that it was determined he would hit platforms and walls if towed. Result: Scrapped on the spot and his widow is now a Yellowbird gel applicator car.
Subway necrology - what a fun science!
Wayne
You said it right! 8885 was moved out of 180th St Yard not too long ago. Anyone know where it headed to?
-Stef
Good question regarding 8885. Had to be after July 21, for she was sunning herself in 180th Street Yard that day. She doesn't run in the summertime; Gel isn't needed unless there's ice. If anyone sees her, please post.
Wayne
They sure don't build cars like the BMT standards anymore. They were indestructible. There is a detailed section in Subway Cars of the BMT about the carbody design of the standards.
Of course, the only thing that could hurt a Triplex was another Triplex...
I was surprised to find that in Chicago, the Washington, Monroe and Jackson subway stations are really just one long platfrom. The train just makes three seperate stops along the platfrom. Anybody know the history or rational of this rather unusual arangment? Is it used anywhere else?
The central business district (Loop) in Chicago is quite compact and rapid transit stops in this area are close together. The State Street and Dearborn Street subways both have continuous platforms downtown. It is quite user-friendly, since there are station entrances in every block on State and Dearborn, which eases pedestrian congestion. The State subway traditionally had offset loading berths for northbound and southbound trains, easing crowding on island platforms limited in width by street width. In short, it's a very functional design.
There is a precedent for this in Chicago. On the Loop elevated, platforms on adjoining stations were lengthened for longer trains and multiple loading berths many years ago. Randolph & Wells was joined with Madison & Wells and LaSalle & Van Buren was joined with Dearborn & Van Buren plus State & Van Buren. In the sixties, with fewer trains on the "L", the CTA shortened platforms and these connections were broken.
I know of no other city that did this. When the State Street subway was opened in 1943, the city boasted that Chicago had the longest subway platform in the world.
Did the fire on this car seriously impact linking up the French R-68s?
Last time when I was in NYC, there were some cars that were linked, but others were not, primarily on the D and N lines.
Where is #2579 sitting now? And has anyone seen #2576, #2577 or #2578 recently, or are those 3 all out of service because of #2579?
So much for linking 4 cars into a set....when one goes down, the other 3 are SOL. Remember 5282-5283-5285-5284???? Sounds like 5283, 5285 and 5284 are all SOL for now, unless if the Franklin Shuttle has the capability to use R44s and if the R44s can be used in pairs instead of 4-car units. Everyone can say goodbye to #5282, as that is very likely a goner sitting up at 207th.
What happened to 5282? I think someone mentioned it was in a derailement or something of that nature?
3TM
R44 #5282 (ex. #140) met his fate as the Eighth car of a southbound "A" train at 10:21PM on July 3, 1997 north of 135th Street Station when a switch closed as he rolled over it. This hurled him sideways into the curtain-wall and sheared off his "A" end at an angle, the point of impact being roughly twenty feet in from the end. He dragged with him his wife #5283 (ex. #129) and the resulting fire damaged her as well. #5282 was scrapped right on the spot; the wrecking crew worked round the clock to clear and repair the tracks.
I think they probably salvaged some odds and ends from #5282 - one TV news clip (Channel 4 I think) from 7-04-97 showed seats, doors, partitions etc. stacked neatly against the tunnel wall.
Wayne
The linking will be done, likely the last to be done. There appeared to be no structural damage to the car. My best estimate is that it may take up to two years to re-wire 2579.
As to #5282, it met an untimely end when it went down A3 and A5 tracks simultaneously at 135th Street and met a concrete encased steel column sideways. It took 20 hours but the car was cut up into small pieces and loaded onto several flatcars. July 3-4 1997
Has anyone seen #5402 very recently, or is it still "inactive"? Why was it inactive...is it because it is looking for an odd # mate? Well, I think I am going to get shouted for this, but can't you make a linking with 5283-5285-5284 with 5402, and thus create 5402-5283-5285-5284 as a mismatched pairing and put those back in service without having to depend on 5282. Personally, if 5283, 5284 and 5285 (as well as 5402) are scrapped, it would be a total waste (similar to what they did to 5486-5487-5489-5488)....
Anyway, they could reinstate old #176 and possibly other R-44s that were not overhauled, unless all ten of those cars have gone to the scrap heap.
How easy is it to convert R44s into R46s????? Or is it not possible? Because the "unique" A-B on the "G" 6206-6207 is very strange if I have a chance to take a look at it. If 2 R44s (one odd, one even) were converted (assuming it is possible to do so), then the hostler on #6207 can be uninstalled, and the odd # would become #6209 and the even be #6260, which #6208 will become linked to #6209 and thus link with 6206-6207 to become 6206-6207-6209-6208 and new 6260 will link to 6210....unless if the TA wants to keep them in order, which can mean unlinking and relinking 12 more pairs of cars, where the last pair will become 6258-6260 and the A-A pairs will have different mates.
Well, that having said, I will assume that 5486 to 5489 are probably scrapped, as well as 5282 and possibly maybe 5285, 5284, 5283, 5319 and 5402.....unless the TA does take interest in saving those five R-44s which are currently O/S.
Just some thoughts.
Nick C
You can't 'convert' an R44 to an R46 (or vice-versa) Why would you want to?
You COULD make their electrical systems compatible, and thus make the pinouts on the couplers the same so they could work together, but they'd still be R44s and R46s.
-Hank
[ You COULD make their electrical systems compatible, and thus make the
pinouts on the couplers the same so they could work together, but
they'd still be R44s and R46s. ]
I think that they also currently use different pressures in their air systems, so you'd probably have to modify/adjust that also to have them run together..
Dont the R44's make a noise like air is being release or something like that? I do not think the R46 makes this type of noise...
3TM
[ Dont the R44's make a noise like air is being release or something
like that? I do not think the R46 makes this type of noise... ]
I'm sure there are those on subtalk who can identify not only the particular model of car, but also in cases the actual road # by the sounds of the brakes being released. Some people here even go so far as to make those sounds themselves when coming to a stop while walking in a hallway :)
I'm not quite that expert in the sounds, but I can assure you that all subway cars on the NYCT system, from the early composites to today's cars make hissing sounds as the air is released from the brake system.
I always liked the "whooo-ooooo-oooooooo" sound as those cars start up from a dead stop. It ascends in pitch fairly rapidly; from the platform, you can hear it for a couple of seconds while on such a train, you can still hear it increase in pitch several seconds later in the tunnel. It can't compare to the moaning and groaning of the R-1/9s, but it's a pretty cool sound just the same.
The R-7/9 sound was great when they spent their final days on the LL, coming into Union Square from Sixth Ave. High-pitched moan, then a break, then another high pitched sound as the air started rushing from the tunnel into the station (in contrast the R-40Ms/R-42s were all wind and no sound coming into Union Square)
Anyone have any idea what the new R-142s/143s are going to sound like? My guess is the vacuum-cleaner type noise the DC Metro trains make when they come into a station.
[ Anyone have any idea what the new R-142s/143s are going to sound like?
My guess is the vacuum-cleaner type noise the DC Metro trains make
when they come into a station. ]
I'd guess they'd be pretty quiet coming into stations, and the motors may sound very different now. Often AC motors have a distinctive high-pitch whine. The LIRR DE30AC's exemplify this when accelerating out of a station.
It was the spur-cut bull and pinion gears on the prewar equipment which gave them the distinctive musical whine at speed. I loved it! All postwar cars have helical-cut bull and pinion gears which are much quieter. We'll have to wait and see just how the R-142s and R-143s will sound.
The R-44 has no feed valve so brake pipe air runs 120-135 PSI. The R-46 has a feed valve and must be regulated at 110 PSI. For this reason alone, the brake systems would not be compatible. And no, you just could not add feed valves to the R-44s.
Also the braking systems are different.
I will assume that 5486 to 5489 are probably scrapped,
You know what they say about people who assume. In this case, let it suffice to say that no R-46s have been scrapped since 954-1041 were scrapped in 1990. There are no plans to scrap any R-46s. Barring a major incident, it is likely that 752 R-46s will be overhauled in 2002-2003.
how come 954-1041 were scrapped? That's about 100 cars gone......
3TM
I think he meant 954 & 1041 although we don't have any notes for these guys in the scrap list.. Stef/Wayne, what's up here?
-Dave
OOOps that was 1054 and 941, Dave. I thought I sent you pictures. Those are the 2 poor souls that hit the wall at 179th St in 1986 or so. If I didn't send the pictures let me know,some are quite stunning.
Yes, according to Master Numbers Book #6 (the last one with the pre-GOH R44 and R46 numbers), the correct unit numbers are #1054 and #941. I show the date of that incident as June 4, 1987. Please advise if this is wrong. The impact was such that the blind end of #941 (the second car) was smashed in and the floor buckled. I saw these in Jamaica-Yard about 1988 or so; spotted them from the Van Wyck; pulled over and walked through the reeds and up to the fence to take a gander. #1054 had a tarpaulin draped over his mangled nose, which had been partially removed. Steve's superb photo in the R46 section shows this gory damage au naturel.
For any R44 aficionados wondering what they've got stashed in Non-revenue storage: R44 motors 120, 132, 176, 248, 288; trailers 109 and 385. ALSO: trailers 215 (wrecked), 227 (fire) and 315 (fire) are also O.O.S.
Wayne
Is there a reason why these particular cars were not overhauled (no funding, did't feel like it, used for beer runs?)
Speaking of 120, the number one truck has a general steel casting but no coil springs. It does have inflatable leafs instead with the truck number 7767. If this is a bonified Rockwell truck from an R-46 why does it have the GSI logo? Why is it under an R-44?
There were, as part of the R-44 contract, 12 oddball cars. The last 12 cars were built with R-44 bodies but had R-46 prototype equipment. They has GE propulsion and westcode brakes. In addition, they also had airbag suspension on standard trucks instead of the Rockwell Disaster trucks. There werethe last 12 NYCT R-44s built and ultimately went to the SIRR.
I am curious to know how difficult is it to change the R-44 to use R-46 guts and have them both m.u. with each other?
Got me but I wouldn't attempt it. Lately it's been a struggle to get R-46s to MU with other R-46s
I've noticed that recently! I'm afraid to look at the next MDBF! You recently lots of attention has been given to air conditioning concerns lately. Realistically
, the guys in the barn can only do so much.
You are somewhat correct. July MDBF has not yet been finalized as all milage has not yet been posted but the R-46 fleet will be up about 15% from July 1998 but down from June 1999 by about the same amount. However since we live or die by the 12 month moving average, we're moving in the right direction.
Ooooooohhhhhhhh nooooooooooo. Just when I was going to say it appears the R-46s have had all the bugs worked out of them.
They're still good cars, IMHO.
They are great cars and as I have said, just two engineering issues away from being great cars. My boss and I were discussing that issue yesterday and he has said that he intends to use that line with his boss. In fact, these same engineering issues were raised in a memo in 1991, by me. TA engineering has two speeds neither of them is very fast.
They are great cars and as I have said, just two engineering issues away from being greater cars. My boss and I were discussing that issue yesterday and he has said that he intends to use that line with his boss. In fact, these same engineering issues were raised in a memo in 1991, by me. TA engineering has two speeds neither of them is very fast.
1054 and 941 have a picture, yes (it's actually of 1054). I wasn't sure if that's what you meant or there were 2 other cars we didn't have on the list.
-Dave
As many of you know I became a member of Shoreline @ Branford this past Fall. I've been a "customer" who has thoughly enjoyed the services provided & wanted to start paying them back.
Sat. about 8 AM I put the top down on my convertable and headed North. At the end of #6 I did a easy off/easy on & picked up Stef, we arrived about 10. After a brief conversation with JJ about my history project & a stop at the store to pick up a book that a fellow SubTalker had suggested, it was time for work.
I spent about 6 hours with a butane torch & puddy knife scrapping paint off the roof of R-17 #6688 (yes Stef, Lou & I were on the roof). At one point there was four of us working on her: Stef, Lou, Joe & I. Jeff arrived & later made the comment that it looked like somekind of SubTalk reunion. I got off early, at 4:30, because mine was the first bottle to run out.
P.S. Small World category: Jeff was going to a Jazz concert the next day in Moodus, CT. I told him it was just a couple of miles away from my moms' house, as the crow flyes (sorry a little hick talk).
Also intersting, I later learned that my Uncle was going too. So, Jeff I hope you enjoyed the event, after the AM shower, at the SunRise !
Mr t__:^)
Thanks for coming up. I hope you'll be returning. I'd like to recruit other SubTalkers to the worthy cause of preservation.
-Stef
Back in March 1999 I saw Septa 2739 on an empty lot on 4th Ave Brooklyn, just north of Union Place.
Does anybody know if it is still there? If so why is it there? According to a website roster (linked from this site) an individual named Eric Richmond purchased 5 of the old cars? Who is he and can he tell us where the other 4 cars are? Thanx
I can offer that SEPTA PCC #2709 is at the Seashore Trolley Museum, and is part of the operating fleet.
I hear on my scanner DeKalb giving directions for the N to accept a lower green at Ball 354 (I believe this is the home signal for the dirverging route from the N Broadway line to the Nassau (M) line). Is there some new procedure in place? My notes show that signal to always have been lower green for the N & R.
I don't know of a 354 ball in the vicinity. There is 154X home signal located at the southern tip of the Manhattan Bridge. If there was an N train there he was told to make the stop at Dekalb with that bottom green.
There is a home signal 354 on the Manhattan bound M,N,R which governs the diverging route to Broad Street. Procedure is lower green to Whitehall, lower yellow to Broad Street. I asked my question to a motorman on a N this morning. I was told that for two days in a row there had been instances of a train accepting the lineup to Broad Street (lower yellow) when the correct lineup was to Whitehall (lower green). This was caused by new personnel not yet familiar with the routings. DeKalb has been requesting that the motorman confirms he is expecting a bottom green to prevent further mistakes until everyone is familiar with the routings. RT
Gee, wouldn't PROPER TRAINING have prevented this? On the Railroads we were given training on the physical charicteristics of the line. Then we had to pass a test before we were allowed to operate trains. But since this COSTS money the Transit Authority isn't interested. Dollars before professionalism.
Satan runs the TA.
How would proper training have prevented this? If an N train punched at Court Street and saw the wrong lineup displayed at the cut to Broad st why would they take it?. Tie the damn railroad up till the proper line is given unless Control Ctr orders you to take the wrong line up....
Correct! Right! I agree! 100% YOU have the right atitude. Do you attend your union meetings?
8-10 new MVMs have been activated on the Lexington Ave Mezzanine at Grand Central, as of last Friday, at least.
-Hank
What's an "MVM?"
MVM = MertoCard Vending Machine, comming to a station near you soon.
Mr t__:^)
You don't read the Willy B thread do you? I posted a whole list of abbreviations there, MVM (Metrocard Vending Machine) is one of them.
Next up, MRM: Metrocard refillingmachine, also coming soon, according to this month's ERA Bulletin
Why would a separate machine be needed for a function already fulfilled by the existing machines? To make it harder to buy cards and encourage refilling I assume?
The current machines don't refill.
Yes, they do. The function is called 'add value'. The 'refilling' machines can be smaller units, as they do not have to offer the multiple options that the full-service machine does. It can make do with a bill/coin acceptor and a small screen. I'd assume, basically, you'd dip the card, the screen would give you a current value. You drop in your cash, and hit a 'finished' button, your card is updated and spit back out at you.
-Hank
GCT has been (or will be if you read this within a few minutes of posting) to my MVMs list at: Roosevelt Avenue and the MVM. Visit the page, corrections and updates welcome! I want to keep the list up to date.
I saw them at Grand St on Saturday.
Grand and Chrystie?
FNO: I will not make any additions to the list unless I investigate the station first. I will investigate the current stations (except for 179, Rockefeller, Columbus, Bowling and 68/Lex) on Thursday or Friday.
Grand and Chrystie?
Yup. There were the usual posters on the platform pointing the way to the machines, with signs advertising free Metrocard holders to people who use the machine. Of course, no one was there to hand them out when I went through the station, but I had gotten a free holder from Bowling Green several weeks ago anyway.
Nice list....I wonder,however, what the priority has been as far as where the MVMs have been located...i.e. when for example Times Square-42nd St or World Trade Center for example-locations that seem to me to be obvious spots where day trippers, commuters etc tend to start their trips....
I've e-mailed a friend in Cubic NYC incl. a couple of examples of the posts here just to see how he reacts to our interest. No reply yet, but then I didn't ask for one. Last time I spoke to him he was impressed that we knew where they were going in.
Mr t__:^)
Re: MRM, My friend at Cubic says that "Hank has it almost right".
He says they'll take only credit or debit cards. They are about the same size & will be installed "... next year ..." at sites near the MVM machines. They will re-charge value & time based MCs.
Mr t__:^)
They are going in to the World Trade Center E station, they have the connections there. Times Square may have been passed by because of the renovation and they'll have to finish a significant 24 hour portion of one of it's entries before installation.
A question for one of our LIRR friends or someone who has ridden the Cannonball:
How many LIRR crew are on board?
For example, would there be, say, five trainmen for 10 bilevels (1 conductor and 4 ass't conductors, so that there's one for every other car)? And are there two qualified engineers? (What if there's only one, and he has to take a 'comfort break'?)
>What if there's only one, and he has to take a 'comfort break'?
There's an interesting (well, maybe not...) question.
Does the DE-30 have a toilet? I know the F-40s Amtrak uses have them. Ever wonder what's inside the nose of one? Don't believe me? Check out http://gelwood.el.wny.org/manual/f40-manual.html
Anyway - E units had them, I guess F and others had them too - But, what DO they do? I'm assuming they can't switch operators while the train is in motion. It's quite a distance between stations...
How about this? Use a funnel attached to the control panel. Then attach a hose to the outside of the train.
That's illegal.
-Hank
And what would the ladies do? Yes, there are a few (very few) women engineers :-)
Out west where Amtrak uses F40's, cab cars, and even newer F59's, the engineers don't even THINK of using that smelly pit down in the nose of the engine. It's akin to what the passengers have to endure on the LIRR.
Most engineers I know out here just get on the radio and tell the conductor "Hey Joe, I gotta come back and drain the main reservoir" and they go back to the first car of the train at the next staion stop!!
Metrolink doesn't even have toilets on their locos; it was their intention all along that the engineers would hop back to the first car if something necessary came up en route.
Speaking of draining - did the Amfleet toilets ever drain directly to the ground? I know some cars have a sticker telling you NOT to flush in the station - oddly enough, the explaination is that "workers are performing safety inspections under cars" One would think the most people would be *encouraged* to flush by that...
They did, but many states passed laws banning (for environmental reasons) dump toilets, and now all cars are supposed to have retention toilets.
-Hank
Why go through all that trouble....bring a Big Gulp cup from 7-Eleven, and when it is filled, just toss the contents out the window....
< A question for one of our LIRR friends or someone who has ridden the Cannonball:
How many LIRR crew are on board? >
AFAIK, no LIRR train ever has two engineers as regular crew.
I don't have the current Cannonball, but I have recent crewing figures.
The Friday Cannonball (Train #2710) actually has one of the smaller crews for a major train. It carries one engineer, one conductor, one brakeman, and one collector. It really doesn't need more, because with the first stop after Jamaica being Westhampton, there's plenty of time to sell and collect tickets.
As far as the public is concerned, the crew translates to the engineer and three conductors, or if your prefer, one conductor and two assistant conductors.
THe thing I noticed on Friday was that there were at least 10 parlor car "Ushers" on the Cannonball. This might only have been on that day with the introduction of Bi-level Cannonball service....Mark
Car service personnel (ushers? bar tenders?) are not part of the crew (in the timetable or FRA sense).
I'm not sure they're in the same union as conductors.
I just rode in the the DE30ac.
To clarify some points:
Nope, No bathroom.
The interior is loud as hell because of this pressurized interior. It sounds like keeping a hairdryer on FOREVER.
The Inside is all computers. One of the screens the engineer doesn't even bother to use because it distracts him from looking as the road.
I've got video of the interior. It looks impressive, but it's all useless. And that is a dierect quote from the engineer.
lastly, It is 3000 HP, BUT... ONLY 2000 of traction and the extra 1000 is for hotel power. Otherwise, it's a GP38-2 in a carbody, just NEWER looking.
MJC
2000 hp goes to the traction motors and the rest is for the HVAC? It figures. HEP will always sap some hp from the prime mover. Reminds me of NJT's U34CH from a couple of years ago.
Hmmmm...they DON'T have a separate engine for HEP? Strange.
Everyone was touting that as an F59 in a longer, lower carbody.
The F59 has a separate engine for HEP. I seem to remember seeing
cutaway drawings of the DE30's, and there WAS a separate engine,
maybe I'm mistaken.
[ Everyone was touting that as an F59 in a longer, lower carbody.
The F59 has a separate engine for HEP. I seem to remember seeing
cutaway drawings of the DE30's, and there WAS a separate engine,
maybe I'm mistaken. ]
I think I posted this before, but looking over the information on EMD's website seems to confirm that the F59 does have separate HEP, and the D[EM]30AC's don't.
When I bought my Saturn, they made a big deal out of the cupholders. Will the R142-R143 have cupholders in the train operator's cap?
I ask because of an incident at Grand Army Plaza this morning. The train operator announced a hold due to "red signals," then left the cab and sprinted to a trash can on the platform to dispose of his 2/3 drunk tea. He then got back in the cab and we proceeded. A cupholders could have saved 30 seconds.
And, if there was a holder the cup could be used for something else on the second half of the run, saving even more time. I for one couldn't function without my morning coffee, and place to put in on the way out
The new M-4s in Philly have cup holders in the cabs...
And the seats look like they adjust at least as many ways as the driver's seat in a Lincoln Continental!
The M-1's (LIRR) have those seats too. There's like 5 knobs on them. If you've ever seen (or sat), in the MP-54's seats, you'd know why, it's a reaction to how minamal those cars were in seating up front:
1) The seat isn't hight adjustable. It *does* adjust side to side (kinda), though.
2) It's tiny
3) no backrest, though it has footrests
4) It's (marginally) padded
5) They probbly stood anyway, because you can't see much of anything out them sitting. Those cars, esp the older ones, had real small windows. The MP-75s had somewhat larger windows, as did the Zips. They're still too small, and pretty high up - short people probbly had a lot of fun driving these things.
6) It's a pain to fold up / unfold it
I can imagine, after dealing with that all those years, engineers probbly lobbied the LIRR hard for better seating - note how newer MUs tend to be that way. What I hate is that it has no storage space for the prerequiste bag they carry around - at least the M-2s they can (almost) stuff their stuff all in the cab.
Anyway, I found the seat in the subway R-4 (or was it 6?) at Seashore to be much more comfy - I actualy prefered it to standing - is there any rules as to operation? must the T/O be sitting, or can they stand to operate?
In 1990, I attempted to have cup holders, coat hooks and sun visors in the cabs of the R-46. Coat hooks were approved but cost about $27 each. The sun visor wouldn't pass system safety standards even though they were the same that are used on busses. Coffee Cup holders were rejected because it's a violation of rules to be eating or drinking in the cab.
Coat hooks that cost $27? You perhaps use the same guys that supply the Pentagon with the $500 hammers?
Maybe that figures in Instalation costs? Those .50 centy coat hooks don't exactly stick themself to the wall....
No food or drink in the cab, eh?
Here's the philosophy: the union won't let you fire the 10 percent who are slobs or bums (since they are the only people who show up at union meetings), so you treat the entire workforce like children. Great for morale. No wonder the TA has labor problems despite high pay. Its that insane, common sense be damned, union-civil service rule oriented labor relations style that drives postal workers to kill. Someone spilled coffee on the console once? Ban it.
Question: are airline pilots allowed to have a cup of coffee in the cockpit? If the answer is no, then the TA is not out of line. If the answer is yes, then....
Ever see the movie "Fate Is The Hunter"? Best reason I ever saw for not allowing coffee in the cockpit of a plane or the cab of a train......
By the way, coffee in a personal auto don't work too well, especially if you hold it between your thighs.
"Coffee doesn't work too well in a cockpit of plane, train, auto"
It seems to be a must in the workplace. Without it, the output of the Department of City Planning would fall substantially.
Many airline captains that I've flown with have a rule-of-thumb: If their cup of coffe begins to slosh around so much that a "reasonably full" cup begins to spill, then it's time to turn on the seatbelt sign.
I'll keep that in mind when I fly to Florida in a few weeks ....
--mark
sure why not have cup holders in new equipment how about leather seating surfaces too? piped in musak carpeting head and neck rest also
give me a break some train cabs are so filthy its not fit for a person to enter
Well, if the coffee helps you stay attentive to the job, but you have no place to safely put the cup, I think cup holders make perfect sense. Just my humble opinion.
As I said, the new M-4s in Philly have them. I know a cup of coffee helps get me going in the morning, and I feel a bit better riding to work in the morning knowing that the TO had his cup, and he's not going to spill it.
Lousy work surroundings are a characteristic of public employment. Why this is I don't know. A cupholder, a better seat, etc. in the cab would probably improve morale. The problem is that some TOs are slobs, but treating them all like children doesn't help. The quality of the cab should be maintained, and managment/union should make it a priority to keep it that way.
A couple of tubes of Duro(TM) Contact Cement should solve that problem. Or you could get some Krazy Glue for $1.00 a tube anywhere in the system :o)
Wayne
What is your favorite line and subway car?Mine is the F and the R46.
Favorite line:
IRT: 7
BMT: L
IND: A
Favorite Car: R62a with the railfan window
3TM
That's a toughy, but here goes:
1) The BMT Brighton Line
2) R-40 slants (second runner up: R-38)
Doug aka BMTman
"A" train to Rockaway
1 train north of Dyckman Street
any elevated
BRT 1200 series cars with steps and traps!!!!
Deck Roof Hi-V's come in a very close 2nd
Hey,
A man after my own heart. Favorite line: Brighton (with the West End a close second). Favorite car: A tie! BMT ABs & D-types (they go together like peanut butter and jelly; can't have one without the other)
Mike H
From the "it is not there anymore" category - 3rd Av El (Bronx section) and the Lo-V's.
From the retired section: R-22's on any IRT line, The R1/9s on the A and D lines.
From the current selection: Haven' made up my mind yet.
IRT #5 and the R-33 (No surprise there)
Larry,RedbirdR33
Favorite Line: Brighton Line
Favorite Service: Brighton-Franklin Express
Favorite Equipment: Triplex D-Type
Favorite spot in Favorite Equipment: the front window, wide open, even in pouring rain.
2nd Favorite Equipment: BMT Standard
Favorite spot in 2nd Favorite Equipment: the front window, wide open, even in pouring rain.
3rd Favorite Equipment: 1300 series BU
Favorite spot in 3rd Favorite Equipment: sitting next to the car side, with the window sash removed in the summer.
2nd Favorite spot in 3rd Favorite Equipment: standing on the open platform on Sunday watching the conductor operate the gates, especially if he let me open them every now and then, especially if he let me crank the handle on the farebox when people deposited money.
I remember those fareboxes too. That's a long time ago!
Hey Paul,
You read my mind with the ABs and D-types. Was born in 1956, so the gates were gone by my time, but how lucky was I to see those ABs and Ds running.(OK, 3rd is the R/9s)
Mike H
How I wish I could have ridden on the Triplexes. If only we had waited until rush hour back in July of 1965...
How I wish I could have ridden on the Triplexes. If only we had waited until rush hour back in July of 1965...
But can't we hope the Nostalgia train will run again?
Yes, we can only hope the good Body Doctors down at CI Shoppe will see to them soon, as rust and old age are setting in. I hear one has a partially fallen ceiling! This Will Not Do! I rode them last October 18th, and it was a wonderful trip. Steve B will be pleased to know that they sounded almost exactly like R1/R4/R6/R7/R9 cars, complete with groaning Bull gears (which made it to a resounding F# above middle C between 36th and Pacific) and little air noises like "k-chaaaaahhh" and "pfsht" and "tchhhhhhh".
Wayne
Of course, the BMT standards moaned and groaned the way the R-1/9s did as well. It's a safe bet the Hi-Vs and Lo-Vs did so as well.
The only Lo-V I can remember the sound of were the 1938 WF Steinway Lo-V, on my May 24,1969 trip up the Third Avenue El. They had a groan, but it seemed to be a shallower sound than the deep-throated bullfrog sounds of the R1-thru-R9 cars. Perhaps because we were outdoors it sounded different. I was too young to remember the regular Lo-Vs sounds. I remember riding ON them but not what they sounded like, as I was a very young child. I got a kick out of the fans - Mom said I called them Wa-wa's. The fans in the R-6s and R-7s on the "E" and "F" (and the R-7s and R-9s on the "QJ", "KK", "LL" and "M" Shuttle) were less interesting. Walking through the Lo-V trailer at the Museum brings back some very distant memories of riding from Newkirk Avenue to Borough Hall on my Mom's lap, with her pointing out the letters in the mosaics to teach me alphabets.
Wayne
You can hear moaning and groaning in The Incident; however, they used a meticulously-built studio mockup of #5674 and the sounds were undoubtedly piped or dubbed in. Nighthawks is another story; what you hear is the real McCoy. You can even see the conductor peering out from between the two cars he was stationed at in the scene where Rutger Hauer is holding the elderly woman hostage at knifepoint. I've never been able to determine any car numbers in Nighthawks, even going frame by frame, although I'll bet Seashore's 800 and 1440 were probably there.
I can only hope that I will be in the city if and when such a fantrip will be held. Timing is everything.
Line: #7, what else?
Car: R-15 or R-11 I *love* those round windows on the doors
You know the R16's had round windows in their storm doors too.:-)
He's talking about the four round porthole windows in the side doors. They were truly unique. BTW- RD336 is STILL out there, she's all R15, even in her Yellowbird paint scheme.
Wayne
When was the R15 retired? I remember in 1986 and early 87 there were cars running on the IRT #3 line which looked like R15's and R17's. They disappeared around March of 87 about the same time as the R16 was put out of it misery and the R62 began taking over the #3. Which cars was I riding on? I do know that IRT cars which had square windows that could be opened were r21/22's.
I believe the R16 was on the J line or the BMT division.... I check the roster.........
3TM
R16 appeared in a wide number of places. Initially, they were on the #15 line (now the "J") and occasionally on the #14 (the old "JJ"/"KK"). Then they showed up in 1968 or 1969 on the "RR". Soon after they migrated to the "EE" and "GG", working out of Jamaica-Yard.
They stayed there for several years, actually appearing briefly on the "N" when it took over for the "EE". They appeared as fill-ins on the "E" and "F" when the Rockwell truck problems cropped up. From there, they went to the Eastern Division. They worked the "LL" and "M" for a while. Then they mercifully faded off into the sunset, at the ripe old age of 32 years service.
Wayne
It was strange to see the R-16s sporting orange JJ signs during their final days. Not to mention the light blue M signs.
And, speaking of round door windows, I know I saw some R-10s with those door windows; in fact, once a southbound A train pulled into 14th St., and every car in the consist had those door windows! The problem is, no one can confirm this, not even Mr. R-10 himself. I wish I had written down the car numbers, looking back now.
There was one R10 with a round end storm door glass window, but side door panels? I think not. Were you dreaming about R10's again? lol!
This was no dream, let me assure you, even though I've had some doozies. This was on the 8th Ave. line at 14th St. sometime in the late 60s (I almost never rode on the IRT back then). I was on the uptown platform, waiting for an A train, when a southbound A train roared into the station. The cars were definitely R-10s, wearing the teal and white scheme of that time period. Every single car in that train had two round windows on each door. It was the only time I ever saw such a train, although I had occasionally seen such a car in other A trains.
Not only that, but I cannot recall ever seeing the conductor work the doors on the BMT standards from one of the button consoles between the center doors, and I rode on those cars for two years on the Canarsie line every Saturday. Unless I never rode in the second or fifth cars of any train... Or perhaps I was trying to blot the standards out of my mind, since I didn't care for them back then.
Put it this way: Leo Durocher said he had no recollection of Bobby Thompson's "shot heard 'round the world", even though he was coaching at third base. His mind went blank right about the time the ball landed in the stands.
The door controls on the BMT Standards were
definitely on the center door. The other thing I
remember which was great for a little kid (thats
when I rode them) was there was a window on the
motorman's cab door (like the LIRR used to have
before they painted it over) to watch them drive.
It was at perfect eye level for a young
child!!
The SARGE-my homepage
Oh, I remember the button consoles very well. Chances are we most likely sat in the third or fourth car while heading to Brooklyn; I always rode in the first car going back to Manhattan. One funny thing: once when we got off at Lorimer St., I could have sworn I saw the conductor sitting in the motorman's cab in the fourth car. My mind must be playing tricks on me.
Although I'm going by memory only (and thats the first to go) and I'm no expert, are you sure you're not thinking of the IRT cars that were like the R10?? I seem to remember IRT cars with the same type fans and the high (over the window) destination signs as the R10 that had round door windows. They also had the same type of door controls between cars that the R1-9 & the R10 had.
The R10 and R12 were similiar cars, with similar fans and signs. The only difference besides their dimensions (60' to 51') was that the R10 had foward facing window seats and the R12 had all their seats agaist the wall. At least that's all I could tell when I saw them at the TA Museum. There might be mechanical differences.
BTW, is the R110A the only IRT car which had these type of foward facing window seats?
The only ones since the original High-Vs without the center door. When the IRT put the middle door in, I believe the forward facing seats in those cars were taken out.
The R10 had air operated doors. If meemory serves me correctly, the R12/14 had "electric" doors.
You are correct. The R-10s were the last cars to have air-operated doors.
Yep, the R-12s and R-14s were scaled-down versions of the R-10s and were stylistically similar. They had square windows on their doors and external trigger box door controls in addition to the small roofline roll signs. The R-15s had two round windows on their doors and round porthole windows on their storm doors, plus their door controls were in the cabs - a first.
Are you sure you aren't thinking of R11's or R15's. They both had round side door windows with the same type of over the window destination signs as the R10.
I knew that the R16 ended its days on the J/M and L lines, with the last ones being taken out of service in the early months of 1987 off the M line. But what about the R15 or R17? One of them also disappeared around the same time ...
Chris: The last R-14's and R-15's were taken out of passenger service on December 10,1984. They spent their last days on the #1 Broadway-7Av Local.
The last R-12's ran in passenger serivce sometime in September 1981.
The last R-17's ran in pasenger service on February 29,1988 on the #5 Lexington Av Exp/Thru-Exp. These were painted in the "Redbird" scheme and had cars 6620-6614-6550-6681-6579-6618-6624-6623-6619-6626.
Thanks for the info. I thought the "redbird" R17's only operated on the Times Sq shuttle. I can't remember seeing an R17 on a main line after March 1987.
Chris: They did operate on the 42 Street Shuttle until October 2,1987.After that they ran in #5 service until February 29,1988. I rode my last R-17 on a southbound #5 Express on February 18,1988. It was 6579.
For the records here's the 16 R-17's painted in red;6550,6579,6588,6594,6614,6616,6619,6620,6623,6624,6626,6627,6665,6681,6688,and 6699.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ok... My favorite topic. Anyone ever knew what became of those Redbird R17s? A number of them wound up in work service, while others sat in dead storage, and one Redbird R17 survived to be worked on by me, and others at a certain Museum somewhere in CT.
What Redbirds went to work service? Let see... 6550, 6579, 6614, 6616, and 6626. 6665 and 6699 sat at 180th St before being carted off to scrap late in 1994, as is 6623, which remained at 239th St Yard. This was an interesting time. Late 1994 saw a departure of multiple cars from 180th St and particularly 239th St Yard. Between a regular set of GOH Redbirds sometime late at night, 6623 came down the line with two R15s, 5981 and 6235. An odd sight indeed. They were not powered.
I've had someone tell me that the cars on the fantrip back in 87 were running down the middle track on the 2/5 line side by side with some GOH cars on the local, and he said that it was amazing - To think that pre-GOH cars could be as fast (if not faster) as the GOH cars makes me think that the cars had plenty of life left in them, even though they were months from an inevitable retirement.
Keep this in mind - that R17 that still survives in Redbird Paint probably can outrun other Redbirds still running in service since that car didn't get any modifications that the GOH fleet got particularly after the fatal Williamsburg Bridge Wreck involving an R40M and an R42.
Anyone here know if there are still any Redbird R17s (or ones converted for work service) on the TA property?
-Stef
I remember photographing 6699 & 6665 at 1st Ave. in Brooklyn (South Brooklyn yard) in early 1996. they were what I believe to be the last pre R-26 "Redbirds" to leave the property. With minimal work they would have been operational. They had NO visable defects other than broken windows. After a week down there you couldn't tell that they were painted red. They looked like something right out of service in the early 80's. They were plastered with graffiti!! They were finally taken away for scrap along with some other cars (R-12,15,21,22,30) after sitting there for almost a year (You could imagine what they looked like after the vandals finished with them) Anyhow 1st Ave. is now a graveyard for retired buses. The only railcars in there are the three "Q" cars dating from 1900-5?. Nobody wants them. The rumor is that they were sold with a bunch of R-30's last year for scrap. The scrapper left them there. (I guess it's not worth scrapping. They are mostly wood)
Mark,
I hate to say it, but 6665 and 6699 would have made a great parts source for 6688. Now they're gone and our search for parts might have become more difficult.
If anyone knows of an R17 on the scrap line, please post.
As I was saying, I believe what you tell me. A whole string of cars, including those in work service were carted off to scrap, particularly since the R127/134s arrived on the property. Many work horses had no other place to go, so off they went to scrap!
The Q's are an item of interest. Naporano I guess, doesn't want them because they're made of wood. What do they want then? Cars of metal? I see a bad thing happening in the SBK yard, if the Q's aren't disposed of soon. Someone who gets in there might decide to have a bonfire on those cars.
There's been talk of renovation of the Q Car at Kingston. It would be a mistake for those kind folks to modify that Q car any other way than it already is. Why don't they purchase one of the Qs on the scrap line?
-Stef
Well even if you pay for the shipping we would not be happy to accept. Harold and I went through those cars some years ago and we came to the conclusion that between TA modifications to make them pump cars and the level of deterioration, they could not be saved. They are beyond hope.
That's unfortunate.
-Stef
As far as your part supply for the R-17, keep your eyes out on the cars currently used for the signal dolly. Word is the R-33 single car might replace them when they are yanked from service. One is already being stripped from its brake and A-1 parts to keep the others going. The side door panels are original, unless you insist on replacing the damaged door with the R-36 one. Don't worry though, 6398 has enough cosmetic and operational parts to carry us well into the 21 century. Even side doors. We could use some more volunteers though.
Well that's good to know. Yes, we all know that 6398 has parts that will keep it going into the 21st Century. I've already heard about 6398 being stacked with parts from bottom to top from Erik. Maybe we should have taken a cue from you when the R17 was purchased. By the way, the R36 Door is NOT, NOT going onto the car ok. I thought that would happen and its NOT, unless the R17 door is beyond repair.
My colleague is trying to get into contact with 207th St Shop so we can fetch parts from cars going to scrap.
By the way, I don't make the rules for how this project is going to proceed. That's in the hands of someone else. I'm only doing what I'm told and that's that. I've only been trying to put in a good word for this car. Everyone needs volunteers and that's also a fact of life unfortunately.
-Stef
Furthermore, my own personal goal is to try and replace or fix as many worn parts as I can, provided that no real expertise is needed. For that, I'll leave the major mechanical work in the hands of men like Jeff H. It doesn't mean that I can't learn how to do things, as Jeff and others have proven to be real teachers to me. It's up to me, the volunteer, to make sure that places like Branford, Kingston, and Seashore keep running and take their places in history as the Museums that fought to save the past. The public has a right to enjoy history as I do. Contributions count to keep the Museums going.
I appreciate history and don't expect everyone else to appreciate it the same way as I do. I love TRAINS, TRAINS, and more TRAINS. There's no doubt about it. On the flip side, some members of the public doesn't share my love for trains, but it's great if I can try and present some history to them. Transit helped to contrbute to the growth of NYC, and without it, it would not have been possible for us to get around the city. What I try to do is to promote the past in that, it helped to shape the present, and possibly the future.
I get great satisfaction out of what I've been doing, regardless of how big a project it maybe.
-Stef
Aren't the R-16 side doors interchangeable with R-17 doors? They certainly have identical windows with no weatherstripping on the inside, just the outside. If they are, maybe you could swing a deal with TMNY.
Ok... We'll see. I don't think that certain folks were too happy over the fact that the R16 was rejected from Branford. I don't know how or if they can help. Anyway as one gentleman has said, there's an R22 on the scrap line at 207th St Yard. It's quite similar to Branford's R17. It could make a good parts source. My thinking was that if parts for Branford's Car could be attained, why not from an R17? The problem is there are no R17s around that we could make use of. There is one car, 6895, that's on the property, but I found out recently that it's going to be restored.
-Stef
Cosmetically the only difference between an R-17 and an R-21/22 is the storm door window and the dropdown emergency side windows, requiring the red glass located over it on the R-17 cars. The side doors are exactly alike as well as their windows,PSS switches and door operators. As far as the group switch box, you may have to pick from the GE R-16 at the training school in Brooklyn, when they decide to get rid of it. Hopefully you got to the scrap line at 239 Street before they cleaned house. BTW sorry if we didn't leave any of the vacuum tube PA amps because we have no intention of COMCO-TO-GO
:-)
TA bell? Cani-San? Temp? Tuffak? OT on the QT? What are we talking about here?
Thanks for that info, but unfortunately 239th St Yard was already picked clean. There's not a single old car destined for scrap here.
What were they? Hmmm... 5704, 5981, 5992, 6235, 6623, 7187, 7226 and several others were kicked out the door. Several at 180th St got booted as well. 35802 still sits at Concourse with Westchester Yard's 5851. It was an interesting site, seeing cars getting transferred down to the scrap line. I don't know about the R16 car at PS 248, but if it works, perhaps Mike can save it and make it into another Museum Car.
My colleague is taking care of everything.
-Stef
Good luck if anyone attempts to set them on fire, if they have as much asbestos as the Composites did. Those puppies had to be drenched with gasoline before they would catch on fire during scrapping.
My thoughts exactly!
-Stef
Actually, I heard that before the TA could release them to scrap,
they had to call in the master-abaters to remove all the funny
white stuff.
Rim shot!!!
What replaced the R-12 when they were taken out? Or were they surplus by then (like the R-30 in 1993, HA!)? What about the R-21/22?
Although there were several car shifts and at one time about 200 cars were laid up out of service what happenned in effect was that there was no replacement for the R-12,14,and 15's. 1150 R-62 and 62A's replaced 1100 R-17,21 and 22's. The IRT is still down about 350 cars(same number as the R-12,14 and 15's) from the peak total of the 1960's. That is one reason the trains are so overcrowded.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I don't think the TA needs as many cars today as they did in the 1960's because there is no longer a Third Ave shuttle or South Ferry shuttle in service. However, I dont think both of these lines used up 350 cars between them. LOL.
Question about the #4 line: Has this line always run on an all-day rush hour schedule (every 5 minutes), or is this a fairly new service pattern. I have subway maps showing that both the #4 and 5 used to terminate at Atlantic Ave during the mid-day hours, and today's present schedule would make that seem a it too much service for the Atlantic Ave. station to handle. Even today as the #4 terminates at Atlantic for some mysterious reason, service can get backed up all the way to Borough Hall.
Chris: Up until Nov 69 the 3 Avenue El required 11 five car trains for peak service plus some spares,as this was the old cars they did not impact on the mainline service requirements. When the R-12's were assigned they cut the requirement to 8 or 9 four car trains and dedicated about 50 R-12 to the service and about 4 more R-14's later on. The Bowling Green Shuttle only required 2 two car trains all four of which were R-12's.
Both #4 and #5 expresses terminated at Atlantic Av midday until Sept 6,1987 when #4 headway was increased to an average five minute headway so #5's were cutback to Bowling Green.
I came across another thing that might be of interest since we were speaking about it the other day. The last R-16's were ordered out of passenger service on June 26,1987.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What line was that R16 operating on? I never saw one after April 1st.
That sounds pretty emphatic, concerning the R-16s.
Those four R-12s on the Bowling Green shuttle, 5703-5706, were modified so that only their center doors would open at South Ferry. One question: since that shuttle was a back-and-forth operation on a single track, I presume that only one 2-car train was used at a time. If so, where was the other train laid up?
If what you said earlier is true about the IRT being 350 cars short, that's all the more reason to keep some of the Redbirds around.
The Bowling Green Shuttle did use only one two car train at a time,but there were a total of four cars to cover the service. The out of service cars were laid up in the yard,either 241 St or East 180 St.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Chris: As of Janauary 7,1987 there were still 48 R-16's assigned to the combined M/R Nassau-4 Av services. This did not stop them from making an ocassional vist to the B and the Broadway R.
On May 22 at least one train was still in service on the M.
The cars were finally ordered out of service on June 26,1987. This does not means that they actually ran on that day or up until that day just that after that time they could no longer be used in service.
The situation with the R-16's is unusual because there is no info on when the last run was actually made. Most times we know the run and car numbers.I rode my last R-16's on April 15,1987,one train on the M and another on the R-Nassau St. I kind of liked the old girls and think they deserved a better sendoff.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I know for a fact that R16's ran on the B and Broadway R as late as March 1987, because I rode them.
BTW, did the TA have any sort of farewell trip for the venerable R10 like they did for the R30? I can understand the R16's uneventful retirement, as they elicited no love from most people. But talking in this newsgroup, I've noticed a lot of people who worship the R10 in almost god-like fashion. LOL
As a matter of fact, there was a farewell fantrip for the immortal R-10s on October 29, 1989. There was a post last week which outlined the route of that fantrip, compliments of Mr. R-10 himself, William Padron.
You had to experience the R-10s during their glory days on the A line. They were second to none in terms of sheer speed, and nothing will ever take their place.
Oh I remember their speed. I can remember riding them on the C line as they rocketed from High St. to Broadway Nassau. Unfortunatly, they made enough noise to be mistaken for rockets. My main beef with the R10 was that the incredible noise made riding them with a Walkman next to impossible. Absolutly impossible during the summer when the storm doors were latched open. Perhaps this is a pet peeve that didn't exist before people started using walkmans on the trains.
However, I did like their green color. I wish the IRT R26-36's had been painted that color green and not red. Greenbirds? LOL
Chris: About ten R-33's and an R-17 and an R-21 or 22 were painted in the "Pullman Green" paint scheme at the same time the R-10's were. I agree with you that the R-10's looked pretty classy with the green but somehow it didn't look so good on the IRT cars.
Larry,RedbirdR-33
My favorite R-10 scheme was the teal and white combination, in particular the one which featured a narrow teal band at the belt rail with a wider teal band along the bottom.
As I've said before, the R-10s weren't terribly loud during their glory days on the A, even when roaring up CPW at an exhilirating 50+ mph. At least I never had to hold my ears.
Chris: I should mention that info for the previous post came from both my own records and the Bulletin of the New York Division of the ERA.
Larry,RedbirdR33
All the more reason to break out the Bondo and keep a few hundred of the Redbirds rolling!
Wayne
Especially since the ridership is up since the 1970s, even if the number of lines in service has declined.
Yeah, but those cars sucked big time. I've yet to see anyone on here who has any affection for the R16.
Actually I know of two of them (R16s) being restored. So some people must like them.
One is at Branford and the other is at the Trolley museum of New York (Kingston.)
I think the R16 as originally delivered (with padded seats) and green backlit signage was a reasonably attractive car. But they were plagued with cold weather problems and were poorly maintained.
No, Branford (Shore Line) has an R17.
Check the Museum Roster
-Dave
R-16 6387 is at the Transit Museum sporting an olive drab paint job. From what has been written, the WH R-16s weren't so bad. The GE ones were lemons. I stand corrected if I had this reversed.
Favorite line(thats a hard one):I guess the
"A" to Rockaway.
2nd:The "B" West
End
Honorable Mention: The "4" when it comes out
of the tunnel at Yankee Station
If LIRR
counts-The Old Long Island City branch (I thought
they closed it when they closed the stations last
year but I was wrong-I rode on it the other day and
as an express its even
better!!!)
Favorite Car: The old
IND trains (R1-7 I think)
2nd:BMT Standards
Honorable mention:
The old LIRR Double Deckers
align=right>JEFF ROSEN
Which scheduled trains take that old express run. The website says nothing. I'm going to check out some subway stations to update my MVM list then go on some sort of commuter rail tour on Thursday. I'll report it all here (if anybody cares).
# 1 Favorite Subway Car - R 15 in the 6200 series--loved the porthole windows on doors. Also these had the a/c units unlike the 5900's that had fans. Also loved the caned coverings on the benches. They put impressions in the skin and the soul of a youngster.
# 2 - Favorite Subway Car - R 33 / R-36 Flushing Line Worlds Fair Colors. Thought they were cool, especially the cars named after the states. Also loved the wide panoramic side windows. Too bad the TA had the bad taste to paint them red. Lost some uniqueness when that was done.
Favorite Subway Line - #7 (What else). My gateway from Sunnyside to the world.
Favorite spot. #4 Southbound as it leaves 161st street and flies into the southbound tunnel.
Favorite Station - 42nd St - Eighth Avenue, lower level---feel sorry for an orphan
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the only air-conditioned R-15 was 6239, coincidentally the one that ended up in the Transit Museum. The equipment was retrofitted into the car ca. 1955 and was removed some time before the car went into the Museum. If you'll notice next time you're there, the car has fans.
David
[# 1 Favorite Subway Car - R 15 in the 6200 series--loved the porthole windows on doors. Also these had the a/c units unlike the 5900's that had fans. Also loved the caned coverings on the benches. They put impressions in the skin and the soul of a youngster.]
My favorite line is #6 and favorite subway cars is R42/44/46/62 & 110a.
Peace Out
Meaney
Actually when I was younger, I used to like the N. The reason this was the one line I did not know about it until I took it from CI. The next reason the R46 car with the blue stripe. Growing up on the IRT, the sound of the door closing really amazed me. I also loved the seating arrangement on the R46. I did not have kneel on the seat to look out the window as I did on the 4 train (the rust train I called them because the cars look like it was well rusted at that time). For nostalgia reasons, the N-Sea Beach is runner up in favorite line and the old R46 with blue stripe was my favorite cars..........
3TM
Eugenius D Train asked:["Which scheduled trains take
that old express run. The website says nothing. I'm
going to check out some subway stations to update my
MVM list then go on some sort of commuter rail tour
on Thursday. I'll report it all here (if anybody
cares)."]
On the bottom of every schedule there is a
box that's titled "L.I. City & Hunterspoint Ave
Service" 5 trains go to and leave from LIC each
weekday. Some go through Hunterspoint & Woodside on
the regular route. I don't know which ones take the
LIC route but I took the 5:33 to Oyster Bay last
week and it took the old LIC route. (Without the
stations such as Penny Bridge)
[ Which LIC LIRR trains take the Montauk Line ]
The ones which do not show a stop at Hunterspoint.
Other question: What are the ticket booth/TVM hours at LIC or Hunterspoint Avenue (if they have ticket windows or TVMs to begin with)?
There are no ticket booths there.(So you gotta pay on the train) At least not at
LIC. To get to the LIC station get off the "7" at
the 1rst stop in Queens (forgot the name but its the
stop after Grand Central) and walk about 4 blocks
south. If your going by car its the last exit on
the LIE just b-4 the Midtown Tunnel Toll Plaza. It
does not look like a station. It looks like a train
yard. You actually have to cross tracks to get to
your train. There are no platforms- the metal
platform on the train is lifted to reveal the stairs
(as in the old days b-4 the raised platforms) I
know the 5:33 to Oyster Bay takes the old LIC
branch. I don't know about the others. Its a great
ride to Jamaica!!! (reminded me of the Straussburg
RR without the Amish!!!)
The 1 station stop in Queens on the 7 is Vernon-Jackson. I think you meant the second station stop which is Hunterspoint Ave. There is a Hunterspoint Ave stop on the LIRR....
3TM
[ The 1 station stop in Queens on the 7 is Vernon-Jackson. I think you
meant the second station stop which is Hunterspoint Ave. There is a
Hunterspoint Ave stop on the LIRR.... ]
Actually, Mike, Jeff was probably referring to VJ on the 7, and the LIRR Long Island City station (or, as the sign says, "Long Island City Passenger Yard").
Jeff was also correct in that LIRR #562 leaves LIC at 5:33PM, and goes to Oyster Bay via the Lower montauk branch and Jamaica. Those of you who have never taken the trip, the LIC station is a train yard, and the ride on the Lower Montauk is fabulous, passing through queens and Forest Park. It's especially nice on a pleasant spring, summer or fall afternoon, while standing on the platform of a P72, behind the lead loco.
Recently, though, they have installed a small high-level platform (about 1 car length, and in a _really_ inconvenient location all the way south and east in the yard), to accomodate the new Bilevels, which don't have traps/steps.
LIRR #562 used to run doubleheaded MP15s, but now is running Push pull with a GP38 on the east, and a MP15 as power pack on the west.
Sometime last year, some subtalkers came out for the last run that 562 or any LIRR train would make with local stops along the line. We picked up and dropped off the usual half-dozen people along the way, and marked the official closing of all local stations along the Lower Montauk.
Somehow, making that run with with bilevels and a spaceship (DE30) seems very unnatural.
[Recently, though, they have installed a small high-level platform (about 1 car length, and in a _really_ inconvenient location all the way south and east in the yard), to accomodate the new Bilevels, which
don't have traps/steps.]
One good thing about the platform's location is that bilevel riders get to walk most of the way through the yard. Train yards are usually off-limits to everyone but railroad employees, so this is an unusual opportunity.
Steve, does the bi-level take the lower Montauk route or does it go to Hunterspoint and through the regular run to Jamaica?? I take the J.Robinson Pkway to work every day & I couldn't imagine seeing a bi-level on that overpass!!!!
[Steve, does the bi-level take the lower Montauk route or does it go to Hunterspoint and through the regular run to Jamaica?? I take the J.Robinson Pkway to work every day & I couldn't imagine seeing a bi-level on that overpass!!!!]
The bilevel that leaves Jamaica at 8:14 (it orginates in Patchogue at 6:53) uses the lower Montauk route to LIC.
[ Steve, does the bi-level take the lower Montauk route or does it go to
Hunterspoint and through the regular run to Jamaica?? ]
The Oyster bay trains that I know of that go via Lower Montauk to LIC (#507 Westbound AM, %62 Eastbound PM) are currently assigned "classic" equipment. I don't usually take that train, but the last time I took 507 in in the AM, it had bilevel equipment, and did go via Lower Montauk. It certainly did feel out of place.
Naturally, _all_ the old equipment is going to be replaced with D[e/m]30's and C3's, and I can only assume they'll continue the Lower Montauk routing for some trains, so you'll probably see them running over the Jackie R sometime soon.
Thanks. It is Vernon/Jackson. The Long Is City station is a different station than Hunterspoint.
I liked the R16 but only in so far as their appearance is concerned. They had a number of unique features, combining elements of the R10, R15, and future cars like R21, R27/30 etc. Performance-wise, they were dreadful, with electrical, heating, door problems &c. And they were as slow as molasses. I rode one on the "F" way back when and it struggled to reach what had to be a maximum speed of 35MPH. The local "N"s and "GG"s were dusting us as we laboured along beneath Queens Bvld.
Wayne
Can you imagine what the R-16s would be like without field shunting? The R-68s would outrun them, for Pete's sake. They'd never make it through a tunnel going uphill. Everybody out and push!
The conductors liked them. They were unique B division cars. They were the only ones with handles for door operation.
L.
And Slant R40s.
Second place: A with R38s.
Wayne /MrSlantR40\
F line R46 with Rockwell Trucks which gave a comfortably smooth ride a shame those trucks were flawed..
R-36WF on the 7 with the original bluebird paint scheme (and if it's running World's Fair SuperExpress, even better)
The J/Z Broadway El(but I hate the Nassau subway, save for Chambers St.) and the R-42, with the 3 and R-62 a good second.
Favorite IRT line/service: #7-Flushing Express
Favorite BMT line/service: Brighton Line D/Q Express
Favorite IND line/service: A-8th Ave/Fulton Express to the Rockaways
All-time favorite New York subway car: R-10
Favorite current New York subway car: Worlds Fair R-36, R-32 (tie)
Honorable mention: Slant R-40
- Jim (RailBus)
Favorite IND line/service: Time Machine version circa 1966
R1 equipt on the D train to Coney on the Culver
Second Runner up for the Time Machine - circa 1966
R10 eqpt on the A from Euclid to Far Rockaway
Third Runner up for the Time Machine - circa 1968
Q cars on the Myrtle from Metro to B'way
Fourth Runner up - circa 1970 - Q on the Brighton
All-time favorite New York subway car: R 1/9s
Runner up: R32 as delivered
Second Runner up: BMT standards
Third Runner up; R40
Tie, R42 and R46. Fav. line: Q
My favorites are the A line Broad Channel run with the Pre refab slant R40's and a close second the R10's same run.
Favorite Car: R1, with cane seats.
Favorite Line: D on CPW, Brighton on an R1, with the handle clanking as the train rocked.
BTW, what was that handle for? I never knew.
That handle was manual brake. It wold lift and swing out to be cranked.
That handle was manual brake. It would lift and swing out to be cranked.
WOW, I forgot about that handle. I assume you mean that thing that looked like a pump up front next to the front door)
By the way, you mentioned the cane (I called it wicker or straw) seats. I still have on at home which I stole I mean borrowed as a souvenir from the Myrtle Av El on its last day of operation in '69. People were taking everything including the real leather straps!!! I carried that seat home on the "J" , the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hemp Bus Comp bus to East Meadow (way b-4 MSBA)!!!! At least I had a seat in rush hour!
I got a leather strap RIGHT HERE from #1619C, October 3, 1969. My Dad has one of those little fans and my Mom has a couple of light bulbs, which don't work in any of her lamps.
Wayne
< I got a leather strap RIGHT HERE from #1619C, October 3, 1969. My Dad has one of those little fans and my Mom has a couple of light bulbs, which don't work in any of her lamps >
Hmmmmm...
I'm keeping track of this, and I estimate if we can locate only 2 or 3 more people, we can assemble our own elevated train from rescued parts!
We'll bring them all together near the Willink Entrance in Prospect Park under the first full moon of the new millennium, recite the magic words "William G. Gove" three times and...
Shouldn't be hard to build a carbody, since it's made of wood. Trucks and other heavy components - that's another one.
Wayne
Can I invite Robert Morganthau? :-)
Bippity-boppity-boo!!!
Do they have left-handed threads, or are they rated for high voltage? A step-up transformer would do the trick if it's the latter.
WOW, I forgot about that handle. I assume you mean that thing that looked like a pump up front next to the front door)
By the way, you mentioned the cane (I called it whicker or straw) seats. I still have on at home which I stole I mean borrowed as a souvenir from the Myrtle Av El on its last day of operation in '69. People were taking everything including the real leather straps!!! I carried that seat home on the "J" , the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hemp Bus Comp bus to East Meadow (way b-4 MSBA)!!!! At least I had a seat in rush hour!
WOW, I forgot about that handle. I assume you mean that thing that looked like a pump up front next to the front door)
By the way, you mentioned the cane (I called it whicker or straw) seats. I still have on at home which I stole I mean borrowed as a souvenir from the Myrtle Av El on its last day of operation in '69. People were taking everything including the real leather straps!!! I carried that seat home on the "J" , the LIRR to Hempstead, and the Hemp Bus Comp bus to East Meadow (way b-4 MSBA)!!!! At least I had a seat in rush hour!
My favorite subway lines are the 5 and 6. My favorite cars are all Redbirds and R-62s because I associate them with my beloved IRT lines.
From Pelham Bay dave SR
Favorite cars: Low v
Faverite Div. IRT
Favorite Line: No.6 Pelham Express
Second Best. No.1 Bway/7 Ave Local
From Pelham Bay Dave JR
Favorite Cars: R 33'S Mainline
DIV: IRT
Faverite Line: No.5 Line
Second Best: No.6 Line
FAVORITE LINES:
-'5' Long elevated and embankment (Dyre) stretches; great express under Lex; REDBIRDS!
-'A' Ultimate express (59-125); dull weekend local Fulton stretches now express; the ride to Far Rockaway.
-'J/Z' When I'm in the mood for scenery rather than speed.
-'Q' Express inside and out; bridge; SLANTS!
FAVORITE CARS:
-After the fact, R-1/9s. Hated them when they were still running in the 70s, but I sure miss the sound, speed, and even smell, now.
-Aesthetically, R42s. As a kid, they were a 'glamour' train, showing up occasionally on lines dominated by R16s,27s and 32s. Don't forget, air conditioning and huge colored end marker signs were a novelty in 1969. They were pretty fast on the late, lamented 'N' express, too.
-Currently, Slants. The 68s have made them seem even faster than they are. They also keep my son quiet and in one place- the front!
My all-time favorite route to this day: the A.
Other favorites: D, Q, 2, 5, 7 (let's go Mets!).
Sentimental favorite: N when it ran express along Broadway.
Expresses in general, especially with fast cars.
Favorite cars: tossup between the R-1/9s and R-10s. The former for their symphony of sounds and the latter for their sheer speed and long association with my favorite route.
Admittedly, I didn't care much for the BMT standards when they were still around, but I've come to appreciate them for what they were.
Out of the current fleet, my vote goes to the R-32s, although I liked them even better as delivered. Honorable mention goes to the R-38s, slant R-40s, and of course, the beloved Redbirds. Basically, any car shorter than 75 feet with a railfan window.
Favourite Lines:
- IND: IND Fulton St Line & Rockaway Extension.
- BMT: The Broadway (Brooklyn) / Jamaica El. It's the closest thing we have of the late, great BRT elevated network, and it runs through the amazing Broadway Junction complex. The second runner up for me used to be the West End Line, but with the R-68s there, it's not nearly as much fun. Now it's the Brighton Line, having grown up 3/4 of a block from the Brighton Beach terminal station.
- IRT: The Flushing Line.
Favourite subway car:
- Existing: The R-32. It's the Energizer bunny of the fleet.
- Retired: The R1/9s.
--Mark
I took a picture of that old "Canarsie" sign in Times Square station today, that has been visible lately due to the rennovation of the station. You can find it at http://www.lirrhistory.com/canarsie.html
I'll keep it available for a week or so.
Thanks for the posting. It's not at all what I expected.
Wow! That's a heck of a leak there - call the plumbers! I wonder why a sign to Canarsie would be in Times Square station when the Canarsie line is 28 blocks south.
Wayne
[I wonder why a sign to Canarsie would be in Times Square
station when the Canarsie line is 28 blocks south.]
It was for BMT riders in the pre-Unification days. The idea was for Canarsie-bound riders to take the BMT Broadway line to Union Square, then to connect to the Canarsie line (still the most logical routing, of course).
I would guess that Canarsie was a more important "destination" in those days than it is today.
Where in the station is the sign?
I'd like to see it.
As you pass the new escalators that they put in (as you head from the 7th Av line to the BMT, look upward you will see a slighty faded black paint on white background "Canarsie". I am sure there is more to that sign than we can see.
Those signs were at the entrances to all the BMT stations.
Today i just added pictures on R26/28/29/33/36 & R62. Check out my subway's page and more pictures to come.
Peace Out
Meaney
I just saw it. Nice shots of the 3 line.......
3TM
How come the 2 and 3 lines are not designated as the 7Av/Bway express?
They make 2 stops along 7Av and 2 stops along Bway. Then you got the express stop in the middle, 42St, where it is 7Av and Bway. Can anybody help me out here?
3TM
That's because the 1 is the 7 Avenue-Broadway, the 2 3 are 7 Avenue-Lenox.
The MTA labels lines based on there midtown/downtown patterns. For instance, the #1, 2 and 3 are designated as the 7th Avenue lines. While the N, Q and R are considered Broadway. Another example is the J, M, and Z, they are the Nassau Street Lines. B, D and F are the 6th Avenue Lines. And the A, C, E are the 8th Avenue Lines. So, there's no such thing as the #1 as being the Broadway local. Perhaps you mean it is a 7th Avenue Local.
I'm the Broadway Local
N Broadway Local
The 1 and 9 are known as the 7 Avenue-Broadway Locals. the 2 and 3 are known as the 7 Avenue Expresses.
That's really confusing to tourist. If the 1/9 is a Broadway line, why isn't it shaded yellow like the N (me), Q and R lines?
It's not. It's a Seventh Ave line. Remember, they coded them for the business district.
-Hank
This is what I wanted to hear. Thank you Intentionally left blank! (The number 1 is red because it is a seventh avenue line). Why can't anyone else see that?
N Broadway Local
YELLOW CODED ON WHITE LETTERING
This is what I wanted to hear. Thank you Intentionally left blank! (The number 1 is red because it is a seventh avenue line). Why can't anyone else see that?
N Broadway Local
YELLOW CODED ON BLACK LETTERING
Before the R-62a's ran on the 1, the route signs on the car sides always read "Broadway Local". Presumably because most of the line's run - from 42nd St. to 168th St. and again from 215th St. to 242nd St. - was on Broadway.
The signs on the 2 and 3 read "7 Av - Exp" (note the hyphen). In other words, they were expresses, and they ran on 7th Avenue, but not necessarily at the same time. In fact, as was pointed out, half the express run was on 7th Ave. and half on Broadway.
I think the signs on the redbirds still say "Broadway Local" for the 1. Or maybe it is "7 Av/Broadway Local". Anyone know for sure? The latter would be analogous to, say, "8 Av/Fulton Local" on the C.
On the 2, it just says 7 AV Express. There is no hyphen......
The old roll signs (the ones without the "bullets") had a hyphen.
The Q is orange, not yellow. Hopefully in the future it will be yellow again.
Actually, it depends on where you stand. At Times Square, the northbound local platform is signed 'Broadway Local'; the southbound local platform is signed '7th Ave Local'. Most stations south of Times Sqaure are signed eithere '7th Ave Local' or '7th Ave-B'way Local' Stations north of Times Square seem to have only 'B'way Local'
-Hank
It is because most of the route is on 7 Ave. It has always puzzled me too because it is the express for the B'way/7 Av Local. The 4, 5, and 6 aren't called the Lexington Avenue/Park Ave Line, and every street it goes under. The J, M, and Z should not be called the Nassau Street Line, there is only one stop under there (Fulton).
that is weird. Nassau streets exprees and local. It only skip one stop. A station that will not last very long. And as you mentioned it is not on Nassau Street either.........
The TA's idea was to give a unique name to each subway route (not necessarily line), and the name had to be a Manhattan designation (except for the G, which doesn't go to Manhattan). And in Manhattan the TA chose the street the train passes under at 42nd St. (which is also the station from which the IND started its color-coded station groups), except for the L, the 7 and the J/M trains, which don't cross 42nd St. They could have called the J/M the Broad St. express/local, I suppose, but Nassau St. is just as good. And the express/local designation doesn't refer to the service on the street of the train's designation, but to the fact that the train is always a local or is ever an express (the F and E used to simply be "express," but on the new light-diode signs, the description alternates between "Queens Express" to "8AV Local" or 6AV/Culver Local."
In that case, shouldnt the 4,5,6 should be called the Park Av Express and Local.....
The Metro North Runs on Park Avenue too. Should they call it the Park Avenue Express? No, because it only serve two stations. Besides, the 4, 5, 6 runs on Park Avenue South.
Actually, where the 4,5 and 6 cross 42nd -- if you were going to be completely accuate -- it would have to be called the Grand Hyatt express or local, since the line's at a diagonal to the street and going under the hotel at that spot. But that would really confuse everybody.
Well the have it as the Park Ave. South Local and Express.......
3TM
The Broad St station is at the intersection of Broad, Wall, and Nassau.
-Hank
I always wondered why they didn't call that station Wall St.
The names for the West Side IRT service go back long prior to the TA.
The use of 'Broadway' for '1,' 'Seventh Avenue' for '2,' and 'Lenox Avenue' for '3' were Board of Transportation designations from 1948 when the first R-cars for the IRT arrived.
Before IRT trains carried those numbers, expresses to 242nd Street were called "Broadway-7th Avenue Express" (or "Broadway Thru Express" for the rush hour specials) and locals to 137th were signed "Broadway-7th Avenue Local." Bronx expresses were called "7th Avenue Express." I think locals to Lenox Avenue--145th Street had 'Lenox Avenue Local' signs rather than '7th Avenue Local,' but on this last, my memory may be off.
It always amazed me to see how '242nd Street/Van Cortlandt Park/Broadway' (abbreviated a bit) could be painted in one line on the old metal destination signs.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The local service from South Ferry to 145/Lenox was the 7th Ave. Local. It is now the #3 route, which of course is an express South of 96/Broadway. In 1959, when the TA completed a major rehab of the entire West Side IRT, the 96th junction movements were simplified - all local service (#1) was routed up Broadway to 137 or 242; all express trains went to the Lenox Ave. branch and ultimately to 145th (#3) or 241/White Plains (#2). The old four route system, which required crossing trains at 96th Street, was eliminated.
So that is how they came up with the #1 express and the #3 local?
The elimination of the crossover service at 96th Street was an early example of TA duplicity--the junction was supposed to be rebuilt to replace the level crossovers with flyovers, something along the lines of DeKalb (though that simply moved the delays from the southbound side outside the station to the northbound side). But they did it on the cheap--simply avoid the problem by "improving" service by eliminating it. The northbound side could have been left as is, with just the southbound side rebuilt to allow local/express separation at the station (again, like southbound DeKalb, where the Brighton/4th Avenue shuffle now takes place south of the station instead of north).
But that rebuild went the way of Second Avenue.
I have never understood why so many New Yorkers so passively accept almost anything the TA does without objecting--one of the worst things about the authority system is that those agencies have no accountability to anyone except to those who appoint the board members to those lucrative positions. Even in Board of Transportation days, there was still accountability at the ballot box and under pre-unification operation, the State's Public Service Commission oversaw transit operations officially "in the public interest," which the MTA numbers crunchers don't pay attention to.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Andy - can you possibly help me? I'm trying to track down information on a former LIRR MP-54 car (4137, former 1137, now up at Seashore). Basically, I'm looking for wireing diagrams, etc, for it. I know it's Unit Switch, has Speed Control, and was rebuilt in the 1950's. I tried calling the LIRR, but the person I got was unaware these things existed. Todd says you'd know about this thing, or would be able to point me to a source.
Thanks!!
How come the 2 and 3 lines are not designated as the 7Av/Bway express?
They make 2 stops along 7Av and 2 stops along Bway. Then you got the express stop in the middle, 42St, where it is 7Av and Bway. Can anybody help me out here?
3TM
At 11:33, at 36th St. the 11:19 (R) 95th St. 6090 operating motor, reported a constant blow or air at the C/R's operating position. The strait air and brake pipe were good. I didn't get to pick up this train. Does anyone know what was the problem? I think the trouble car was 6092. Did it have anything to do with the coupler centering device?
Taking the advantage of NYC's great weather, I took an Amtrak train from New Carrollton to NYC this moring. My mission is Redbird hunting. I just came back home.
Today's weather is great! There were blue skies all day long. I went to the Flusing Line first. At Queensboro Plaza, I saw an interesting N train.
This N train consisted of 8 R32 cars and 2 R42 ones. Because I was on the #7 train, I only wrote down the first 6 car numbers.
Astoria Bound <---------->Coney Island Bound
3649-3648-4890-4891-3825-3824-R32-R32-R32-R32
I was sure the last four cars were R32s.
I went to the Flusing line and Jerome Line all morning. I was lucky I found 3 #4 Redbirds. I focused on #2/#5 Redbirds all afternoon. I went all the way up to 238 Street and Dyre Avenue.
I took two rolls of slide film today. Most of them are Redbirds. When the sky is blue, I love the scene of light shining on the Redbird cars.
Today was fantastic!
Chaohwa
Anyone out here help me with some advice and info. I was in the "Great Train store" in the Smith Haven Mall and saw a couple of tapes by "Sunday River Productions" for sale; one was for the New City els during the late 40s and 50s dealing mostly with the transition from gate to steel cars. The second dealt with the last of the NYC trolley lines in Bklyn and the 59th st. bridge line. They were what I consider pricey at $40 each. Anyone have any experience with these tapes so I know if they're worth it?
In addition, I'm actively looking for tapes of the BMT lines from the 1960s on back. Anything on the non-museum ABs, D-types, Q-types, C-types, multis, etc. Boy, it would also be great if they were in color, too!
Mike H
Any info much appreciated
Mike H.:
I have both "New York Elevateds" and "New York's Last Trolleys" videos produced by Sunday River Productions and have no hesitation in recommending both of them. Sunday River delivers a quality product; I have others of theirs on Chicago area interurbans. If you can find it, "New York Transit 1940s" produced by Interurban Videos is also quite good. It covers the Third Avenue Elevated and IRT subways and elevateds in the 1940s. Interurbans has been acquired by Pentrex in Glendale, California.
I can understand your apprehension - there's lots of mediocre product out there. One huge disappointment was "R-9s in the East; Independent Subway Cars on the BMT" by Rail Tapes.
<< One huge disappointment was "R-9s in the East; Independent Subway Cars on the BMT" by Rail Tapes. >>
You're not kidding!
And their videos.....talk about some REAL CRAP.
Other people have gone into the details. Don't waste your money on their videos.
What was disappointing about that particular tape?
Poorly focussed, very grainy, and the same type of shots over and over again.
New York's Last Trolleys, from Sunday River, is 45 minutes, all color. It covers line #35 (Church Avenue), #68 (Coney Avenue), and #50 (MacDonald Avenue). Much PCC action, including footage of #1001 being transported to Branford. It also covers the Queensborough Bridge Railway, including the underground terminal. I've seen this one at train shows for around $30.
New York Elevateds, also from Sunday River is one hour, almost all color. It is mostly early 1950s footage, with some later and some earlier shots. You name it, it's on here - gate cars, Myrtle Avenue, Polo Grounds, crossing gates, snow, SIRT. I've also seen this one priced around $30 at the train shows.
New York Transit 1940s from Interurban (now Pentrex) is just under 20 minutes and, as I recall, is mostly black and white (my younger son just commandeered the VCR so I can't check it out without aggravating Godzilla and Mothra). I haven't seen this one offered for a while but as I recall I paid about $15 for it ten years ago.
All of these tapes are excellent. If you can get to the Greenburg Show at the NJ Expo Center in Edison this weekend you can probably find reasonably priced copies of at least the first two.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Anyone out here help me with some advice and info. I was in the "Great Train store" in the Smith Haven Mall and saw a couple of tapes by "Sunday River Productions" for sale; one was for the New York City els during the late 40s and 50s, dealing mostly with the transition from gate to steel cars. The second dealt with the last of the NYC trolley lines in Bklyn and the 59th st. bridge line. They were what I consider pricey at $40 each. Anyone have any experience with these tapes so I know if they're worth it?
In addition, I'm actively looking for tapes of the BMT lines from the 1960s on back. Anything on the non-museum ABs, D-types, Q-types, C-types, multis, etc. Boy, it would also be great if they were in color, too!
Mike H
Any info much appreciated
Last night, I noticed workmen on the Manayunk Viaduct. As you know, this is the part of the route further down the line from the rush hour spur that is the Cynwyd R6.
Are they going to be using this viaduct soon?
No, SEPTA is merely doing the structural restoration to preserve the viaduct and to keep the chunks of concrete from falling (as they have in the past - you've seen the nets placed to catch it?). The one arch completed a couple of years ago, before the shutdown of work, across the Main St/Green Lane intersection is fantastic. When the remainder of the bridge looks like this, won't it be something? Of course, whether rail service will return is a significant question. R6 Ivy Ridge may come back (a longshot), but the more likely scenario is the planned Schuylkill Valley Metro. Stay tuned.
How close was that Ivy Ridge to the present Ivy Ridge on the Norristown R6?
Ivy Ridge on Norristown R6 is 38 steps (literally) from Ivy Ridge the original (Ivy Ridge R6). The original was built and opened in '81 to extend the ex-Pennsy Manayunk line to a new park and ride lot. The station is still intact. When the Ivy Ridge side of R6 quit, SEPTA feared a loss of riders as the Ivy Ridge parking lot had become quite popular (and still is - try and find a parking spot after 9 AM any weekday). To keep the riders, SEPTA built the stairway down to the Norristown side and the wooden platforms and christened it Ivy Ridge.
(I had to use that title:))
This is a short trivia quiz to test your knowledge of subway history.
Can you name the subway related event that happened on these dates?
1. July 25, 1953
2. November 26,1967
3. August 28, 1991
4. June 28,1956
5. November 12,1995
I can answer two of those:
11/26/67 - Chrystie Street Connection opened.
8/28/91 - Union Square wreck.
Question 1 - 7/25/53 - The fare goes up to $0.15.
Question 2 - 11/26/67 - Chrystie St Connection
Question 3 - 8/28/91 - Union Sq Wreck
Question 4 - 6/28/56 - Opening of the Rockaway Line
Question 5 - 11/12/95 - The fare goes up to $1.50.
I have a question of my own. What was the first R62 Kawasaki Car (give me a number) to arrive on NYCT property, what year and what month?
-Stef
P.S. Was I right?
I'm going to take a dumb guess,
#1667, May of 1985.
As for the quiz,
1. Tokens make their debut on the subway
2. The Chrystie St. cut opens, used by various K services
3. A southbound 4 derails north of 14th St-Union Square station.
4. The former LIRR Rockaway line opens as a new subway line to the Rockaways. Originally, an extra 25 cent fare was required for Rockaway travel beyond Broad Channel.
5. Base Fare rises to $1.50.
Sorry, nice try! It was actually earlier. Kawasaki R62 #1304 was the first to be delivered into the NYC Transit System, August 1983.
Anybody out here know when the first Kawasaki R62 set entered service on the 4 line?
-Stef
I just used a picture from this site.
Wrong, as usual:)
Here's another dating game item: 9/9/64.
Last Triplex?
No, the Triplexes were still running smoothly then; their premature phaseout began a month or so later. Good try!
BTW, my aunt's name is Eugenia. She says my grandfather named her after Eugene Onegin, the central character of Chaikovsky's most famous opera of the same name. He was a classical music buff.
9/9/64 - The inaugural run of the R32s with a set running to Grand Central Terminal by the NY Central Railroad.
Hey Steve, do you think the R142s will make their grand entrance by running down the Metro North Line? Wouldn't that be something!!!
What's next?
-Stef
Applause, applause. I remember that date, not because I was there, because I wasn't, but that was my first day of school in second grade.
I only hope the R-142s have some sort of railfan window. It would be nice if they were as fast as the R-32s were as delivered, but that's wishful thinking.
not peeking again!- just a guess, but the first R-32s arrive??/go in service??
I think Broadway El Steve made a mistake when he talked about the extra fare for Rockaway--it was a token (or double the regular fare), and since the fare was twenty cents when the Rockaway line opened, it was twenty cents extra. (NY hasn't ever had a 25 cent base fare--the TA fares were 15, 20, and then 30 cents.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Ooops--I made a mistake, too. 8-)
The base fare was still 15 cents when Rockaway opened. Rockaway had the double fare (with a refund if you entered and exited between any of the stations from Broad Channel and on the peninsula.
Sorry about the chronological slip.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
For a moment there, I thought the questions would be addressed to Bachelor #1, Bachelor #2, or Bachelor #3.
Rim Shot!!
(AND I DIDNT PEEK!)
7/26/53- Transit Authority takes over..institutes 15 cent fare w/ tokens..
11/26/67- Chrystie St connection opens...confusion reigns...
6/28/56- connector opens to allow IND trains onto the Mcdonald Ave/Culver el..
11/12/95- first Metrocards go on sale(??)
The 1956 date was the connection from the Libery El to the IND. the Culver connection was opened 2 years earlier. The fare went up to $1.50 in 1995. The Metrocard went on sale in 1/1994
Can you name the subway related events that occured in Philadelphia on these dates?
1.March 4,1907
2.January 22,1995
3.June 1993
4.September19,1938
5.July 1,1999
Let me take a guess:
3/4/07 - Market Street subway/el begins service
1/22/95 - Bids opened for M4 cars
6/93 - 'Owl' service ends on Market-Frankford and Broad St lines, bus replacement service begins
9/19/38 - South Broad St extension opened
7/1/99 - Budds run their last miles (but is this accurate - there are still several trains available for service and, as I've been told, still used on occasion?)
Hey, Steve, if I get this right, do I get a crack at the three bachelorettes? Just don't tell my wife...
The answers are:
1. The Market St. subway opens for revenue passengers(trolleys at first)
2.SEPTA raises fares to the highest in the nation at $1.60
3.Trolley service ends n the 15, 56 and 23 trolley lines(I think I wrote thatquestion as 1993 when it was 1992)
4. BSS opens south of City Hall to Lombard-South
5. According to the SEPTA employee I asked, the last day the Almond Joys were to be running.
They are keeping 30 Almond joys for the fall schedule. That is subject to change though. The actully last run for passengers was 7-5-99 for the ERA fantrip.
Hmm, so what's happened to all the conductors from the M-3s? TO
training?
Steve, I think the last PCC's ran in regular service on 15, 23 and 56 on 9/10/92. That's the date etched in my mind. I took pix of 56 line in last August '92 so I'm fairly certain it wasn't June.
I've seen a photo in a book of a B-Division car with an orange 'V' front sign, and several recent posts on this board also mentioned seeing unused codes like 'W', '13" on signs. Does anyone know if the side route signs on the IRT Redbirds and the BMT/IND R-32/R-38 cars have readings for such unused letter/number codes (other than discontinued services like the 'H' nd 'K')?
Just curious.
- Jim (RailBus)
On the GC Shuttle there are upside "11"'s on the cars.
In recent months on the 1/9, I've seen designation numbers 11, 12 and 13 on out-of-service trains going up the center track above 96th, presumably to the yards. The colors were, if I remember correctly, the 11 was a kind of greyish light green (different from 4,5,6) and the 12 and 13 were violet/light purple (lighter than the 7).
You can find all the current bullets here.
BTW, clever handle:)
What's T for? We've seen all the others discussed. Is this a new West End service if the North side of the bridge closes?
This would be a restoration of the Broadway West-End. It's not on any signs, in that form, though. only the R-32/38 signs have T, but in a white bullet (along with P, U, X and Y). The yellow B, was what represented that route on these signs. No the R-44/46 electronic side signd have the T as various West End routes (via Bway, 6th Av or Nassau).
T was the pre-Chrystie St. marking for the Broadway-West End Express. It succeeded the old #3 route which the Triplexes carried when they ran on the West End late in their careers. The R-27s, R-30s, and R-32s came from the factory with these signs in place and, in fact, operated on that route. I remember seeing a few T trains of R-32s on Saturdays in the fall of 1967.
What about the N in a light brown that I have seen on a R40? Is this an anamoly?
Humble opinion that the "light brown" you saw for the "N" was actually a faded, dirty yellow.
I once saw a yellow diamond M on the left side of the last car of an R-42 N running northbound at 36 Street in Astoria. It was an upside-down W apparently.
There are some cars in which the roll sign was put in upside down. That is why you will have conflicting letters inside and out. When I was on the M, I practically had those car numbers memorized. I told the RCI's, and put it on the car defect sheet. Nothing was ever done to correct this.
You might have seen #4320 there - he has what appears to be an ORANGE "N" with a white letter.
Wayne
What about the yellow diamond-Q on the R-68? Before they were moved off the Q, every Q train (incorrectly) had a yellow diamond instead of an orange circle.
>What about the yellow diamond-Q on the R-68? Before they were moved >off the Q, every Q train
>(incorrectly) had a yellow diamond instead of an orange circle.
The Q, now a 6th Avenue line, used to be a Broadway express under the name QB. It's only designation was diamond, no circle. It ran up the now-unused express tracks on the Broadway line. Same route in Brooklyn, except went all the way to Coney Island. Don't remember when it changed from yellow to ornage, but it wasn't that long ago in the grand scheme of things.
But the QB in the Red circle never had the diamond designation. In the way that the TA did things, curiously, it appeared on the same R42 roll signs as the Eastern Division lines.
According to TA convention, the diamond means a special rush-hour service. So why isn't the 9 in a diamond?
My theory is that the diamonds apply to express rush hour
routings(like the 6) or line
extensions(like the M).
The 9 and
Z are skip stop locals that run the whole length of
a trunk line and maybe don't count.
If memory serves correctly, the 9 when conceived, originally ran all day M-F from approx. 7AM to 7 PM. Only recently has it been cut back to rush hours only. Guess the TA doesn't want to spend the money to modify the signs.
The #9 started running on August 21,1989 from about 7am-7pm. On September 6,1994 this was changed to rush hours only.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think (someone else may have posted this) that the Diamond designation applies only to lines which have special rush hour service in addition to their regular service. The #9 and the "Z" are rush-hour ONLY, so they have no non-rush hour service, hence, the sign is a bullet. I HAVE seen diamonds for #9 and "Z" on the route guides on the back of the previous edition of the subway map.
Wayne
Z(K) or J/1 or 9 should use the middle track.
Z(K) or J should operate express: Essex Street, Myrtle Avenue, and Broadway East New York. Then, skip stop service until Crescent Street should be accomplish. Next(third track should be constructed), the express to Supthin Blvd.
As for the 1 or 9, it should operate as express: 96th Street to 157th Street (maybe 168th Street). Then, local until 191st Street. And last, express to 238th Street.
The QB was considered a part of the Eastern Division at that time because it ran on the Brighton Line in conjunction with the M. As we all know, at that time the QB was a rush hour only service. I don't think diamonds were used by the TA at that time. To Manhattan in the morning, return lite on the way back, except the first 2 intervals which went to Astoria, came back as a RR to 36 St., then came back lite to Stillwell. But on the PM, they did go in service to 57/7, then came back to Stillwell.. Except the last 2 which were RR Astoria layups on paper, but re-emerged as QB trains with RR crews aboard. After they would arrive at Stillwell, they would usually go lite over the West End, change ends at 36 St, and lay up at 59 St, "middle". On all the other QB intervals,there were no QB line crews, they were all M crews. Most AM jobs were overtime specials (all road specials and virtually all switching & platform specials have now been eliminated). A few jobs which started on the late AM at Stillwell (which I worked when I was a Vacation Relief Conductor many times), would do a trip to Metropolitan, come back to Stillwell, have lunch, go to Stillwell yard, to pick up your train, then do the QB trip. Let it be known, the QB was a very desirable line to work: many times you didn't do your trip because of car shortages. They would always drop a QB trip before a D or M interval. So we would sit around. In todays railroad, seldom is the TA unable to make full service.
Actually, there was a time in the 60's when the Q was in existence along with the QB and QT. The Q ran express from 57th to either Brighton or Coney. I don't remember which one.
The Q ran 57/7-Brighton Beach, the QB and QT ran Astoria-Coney Island.
The M (Brighton-Nassau) ran BB to Chambers in the am rush and Chambers to Coney Island in the pm rush.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Q and QT ran at the same time, Mon-Fri 6:00 AM to 7:00 PM or thereabouts. In the mid-60s, the Q ran local in Brooklyn during middays. The QB ran by itself during nights and weekends.
When the Chrystie St. connection opened, the QB went from being a late-night-and-weekend local to a rush hour, peak-direction-only express in Manhattan and local in Brooklyn and was color coded red. When colors became identified with Manhattan trunk lines, the QB went from red to yellow to identify it as a Broadway route, and at the same time became a diamond marking which denoted it as a rush hour service. When double letter markings were dropped in the mid-80s, the QB became the Q, but it still remained yellow. When the Manhattan Bridge fiasco began, the Q began running all day in both directions on weekdays, but since most rolling stock had only diamond Q signs, it was still marked that way on trains, but appeared as a circle on maps. When the south side tracks were closed, the Q was rerouted up 6th Ave. and became orange - at least on maps initially.
The round orange Q seems to have made it to all car types, the latest being the R42s that seem to have made their new home there. The slants they displaced must be over on the "N".
Wayne
I believe the 11 is purple. The 12 is red. I think there is also a green 10. I have see a green 8 on the 6 line a year ago........
3TM
I have two questions about the LIRR Flatbush branch.
1. How much, if any, of the line along Atlantic Avenue is underground?
2. Are the tracks and platforms at Flatbush Terminal above or below ground?
[I have two questions about the LIRR Flatbush branch.
1. How much, if any, of the line along Atlantic Avenue is underground?
2. Are the tracks and platforms at Flatbush Terminal above or below ground?]
I would estimate that about two-thirds of the line is underground. It runs at ground level from Jamaica to the Morris Park diesel yard and at the East New York station. There is an elevated portion that begins a short distance west of the East New York station and runs to the Nostrand Avenue station.
Although the Atlantic Avenue terminal is below street level, the ground on the north side has been dug out to create a parking area for employees, exposing the terminal's north wall. This is most apparent from Tracks 1 and 2.
Actually, the East New York station is practically at street grade. Customers at that station exit and enter from street level -- there is no stairways necessary. The ticket booth (the rare times it is open) is located in a dingy underpass beneath the roadbed and runs between the two service roads of Atlantic Ave.
The LIRR Flatbush branch is forced to the surface due to the Bay Ridge Freight line which crosses beneath the East New York stop in a distinctly North-South direction (For further details see prior posts on the subject). Prior to 1914, the Flatbush and the Bay Ridge branches crossed each other at grade in a massive (and dangerous) intersection of rail lines that also included BRT streetcar routes.
The "trench" area at Atlantic Terminal that is currently used by emoployees and LIRR vehicles was used for filming some scenes of the Bruce Willis movie "Die Hard With A Venegence". And it also held more trackage going back over the years where at one time a meat-packing plant had freight deliveries from the LIRR.
Doug aka BMTman
There also seems to be a large abandoned brick building between the 2 Atlantic Ave spurs (Sneideker Ave. and Van Sinderend Ave.) on the L train. I noticed once it said Long Island Railroad on it. Anyone know what it is?
That's an abandoned LIRR power substation. It should say that on one of its sides. The brick looks to be in rather excellent shape. Too bad nothing has been done with the building. Maybe loft apartments for future yuppification?
Doug aka BMTman
Maybe, but I've heard those old substationsdhave mercury and PCB contamination. BTW - I think there's another over by the LIC station. You can see these WAY cool LIRR manhole covers (oops, personal chamber access cover :)there. I mean, they are WAY cool. Look turn of the century. BTW - I THINK I've found an old substation on the now (mostly) abandoned Mitchel field line - it's a bunch of large green elecxtrical lockers, all labeled Westinghouse, and WAY overgrown with plants, etc. Next to it is an old, substation looking brick building. Rigtht by where the army/navy complex over there begins. It's right on the tracks, so UI'm guessing that's what it is.
((I THINK I've found an old substation on the now (mostly) abandoned Mitchel field line - it's a
bunch of large green elecxtrical lockers, all labeled Westinghouse, and WAY overgrown with plants,
etc. Next to it is an old, substation looking brick building. Rigtht by where the army/navy complex
over there begins. It's right on the tracks, so UI'm guessing that's what it is. ))
Where is it located? I would like to take a drive down there.
I'll try to get a location this week (difficult - I have jury duty :( )
< Maybe loft apartments for future yuppification? >
I know, let's use it as an LIRR substation to restoe electrification to the Bay Ridge Line for through freights between New England, New York and the West!
Nah! Too crazy!
Forgot to mention in my other post: Flatbush Terminal is located below ground. It actually shares it's platform with the northbound service of the IRT #2 and #3 trains.
Most of the Flatbush branch could be considered subway since only a brief part of it is elevated -- between approx. Schenetedy Ave. to Nostrand Ave. (not a full mile). In old documents regarding the planned reconstruction of the line from surface ROW in 1906 to elevated, it was noted that the original proposal was for a total subway run of the LIRR Flatbush branch. However, that approach was found to be cost prohibitive due to the massive underground sewage system of the cross streets (like Bedford, Nostrand, Brooklyn and Kingston Aves.)
Doug aka BMTman
(Plan for a subway all the way was found to be cost prohibitive).
Penny wise and pound foolish. Brooklyn has virtually no major streets to accomodate truck traffic. Atlantic moves from Conduit to Schenectady, then grinds to a halt under the El. At City Planning, we'd like to see it put underground.
Actually the El part run from Ralph to Nostrand Ave.........
3TM
Do you have a reference for the LIRR 1906 plan?
Does anyone know what influenced subway stations to be placed at the streets where they are located?
Here is an example:
On the Lexington line, the reason a station would be located at 42nd and 14th Street is quite obvious. These streets have always seen a lot of activity since the beginning.
However, what influenced the local stations being placed at 23rd and 28th Streets? Why weren't they placed a block or two before or after that?
Thanks.
I am sure that local politics had a great deal to do with it.
Also what was above (or planned to be above) the potential station was
probably a big influence.
Example: NY Life's building is above the 28th St Station and Metropolitan Life's building is above the 23rd St Station.
Presumably, the only reason 18th Street on the '1' stayed open was due to Barney's being right there. Now that THAT's gone, there's no reason. I would imagine that if the TA were to propose closing ANY station, there would be a huge outcry. Even Dean Street had its fans.
You'll notice the IND lines have many stretches of more than ten blocks between stations. This was no doubt an attempt on the part of the City (which owned the IND outright) to increase trains' speed and efficiency.
The extreme northern Bronx stretch of the '5' has very long stretches between stations because that is the old Boston-Westchester Railroad right-of-way, and the original stations were retained. I suspect no one complained about having a long walk to the station because prior to 1941, there was no rapid transit service at all in the extreme northeast Bronx at all.
[Presumably, the only reason 18th Street on the '1' stayed open was due to Barney's being right there. Now that THAT's gone, there's no reason. I would imagine that if the TA were to propose closing ANY station, there would be a huge outcry. Even Dean Street had its fans.]
18th Street seems to have more ridership than one might imagine. Most mornings I take the 2 or 3 from Penn Station to 14th Street. Because I too had wondered about 18th's _raison d'etre_, I usually try to get a look at the station as my train passes. There often are at least 10 to 15 people on the downtown platform; uptown is usually a little less. These numbers aren't bad at all considering the frequency of 1/9 service during morning rush.
In general, the IRT/BMT stations are just too close -- what you gain in the walk you lose in the dwell time. They relied too much on express service to make up the speed, but on the BMT express service is mostly gone, and on the IRT the expresses are packed.
Unfortunately, there are 1 1/2 times too many stations, not twice a much. Just closing a station generally leaves them too far apart. You'd have to close two stations and open one between them. It might be worth doing on the #6 -- moving Bleeker St right over Houston, sticking out to the south for a two way transfer and closing Spring Street. Soho residents would have to walk to Houston or Canal, Village people to Astor or Houston. Only a couple of block difference. The 28th St stations on the #6 and the BMT Broadway line could be removed without replacement.
I'd think that a little logic.
First, you don't want to put subway stations a great ways apart or they'll be too inconvenient for people to use. They'd have to take a bus between home and the nearest station(something I dislike about both the Washington Metro and Boston T outisde of downtown).
Then they have to be convenient for what is there, like a major street. It's much more logical to have a subway station at 42nd and 7th than 38th and 7th. More foot traffic.
Mainly, they're placed where the people live and where the people go.
23rd Street is a wide-for-Manhattan crosstown street, similar to 14th, 34th, 42nd, etc., so it's a logical place to put a station. Not sure about 28th, but it makes a nice 5-block pattern: 18th (closed), 23rd, 28th, 33rd. :-)
The subways pretty much followed the el station pattern already established when the IRT was built, though the el station distances were in some cases even shorter.
El stations in some spots were only four block apart, while when the IRT was built, it was set up so that the average station distance was between a quarter and a third of a mile apart (five to eight blocks) in the downtown and midtown areas. 14th to 18th streets and Brooklyn Bridge to City Hall were the shortest disance between stations on the original line -- short enough to close those stations when the platforms were extended after WWII.
I think you meant to say Brooklyn Bridge to Worth St. City Hall is indeed very close to Brooklyn Bridge and wasn't heavily patronized. The main reason it was closed was because the cost of lengthening it to accommodate longer trains would have been prohibitive, and since it was so close to Brooklyn Bridge, it wasn't worth it. Worth St. was lengthened before it was closed, however.
Acutally, I forgot about Worth, but you're right, the same reasoning applies.
Four blocks is the absolute minimum the TA allows between stations, and those are usually limited to high-density business areas (Chambers-Park Place on the 2/3, Fulton-Wall on the 4/5). On the 1/9, 18th street apparently survived because the 14th St. station extends south to 12th St., instead of north to 15th and 16th sts., like it does at Union Square.
Also, it should be mentioned here, that when the IND was built they used a formula of "no more than 3 (stations) in (a) 20 (Block Stretch). I expect that this was due to complaints about the short distances on the IRT Like 14th, 18th, 23rd, 28th on 7th Ave., and 14th, 18th on the Lex.
The IND also introduced High Speed turns and the 59th to 125th Street Express run. All ideas to set them apart from the IRT.
Spent the weekend in London with the wife. Here are my observations
and comments. Landed at Heathrow Saturday AM. Took Piccadilly line
into town. Bought a 2 day pass for &6.70, great deal. You can ride
the new electric express train to Paddington for &10, 15 minute trip,
but they were handing out discount tickets for &5!!!
The ride in took 45 minutes. Stayed at Marriott Marble Arch, off of
Edgeware Rd. Changed from Piccadilly to District Line at Baron's Court, across platform transfer. District Line train only ran to
High St. Kensington because of signal problems, had to take bus to
Nottinghill Gate for Central Line train to Marble Arch then walked up
Edgeware Rd. in the rain.
As the weekend went on, we were inundated with problems. Flooding
forced the closure of both Paddington and Victoria Underground stations off and on over the weekend. The Circle line was closed for
repairs and other service was sporadic.
The "tube" lines were built for a city with about a quarter of the
capacity as London has now. There is no air-conditioning and everyone
must pass out their farecards through a controlled system. Imagine
having to read your Metrocards at Penn Station at 5PM!!!
The "railway" lines (District, Hammersmith & City, etc) are incredibley slow. The trains are dirty and filled with litter.
The day passes are a good deal, especially since you can use the busses. This is probably the best way to get around what is called
"Zone 1."
It is amazing how good the New York City subway system looks compared
to London Transport.
I was rummaging thru the MTA web site and found that they have a section in the Surplus Materials area for Memorabilia and Collectibles.
From the looks of things the TA has high hopes for this (I will be shocked if it works).
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/materiel/collectsales/index.html
I saw only one Item in there so far. Anyone want to bid on 1000 NYC Transit Baseball Caps?
From
I love the T-shirts for each line, my favorite is the 8 Avenue-Fulton Express. A perfect gift for that person who is unfaithful to her husband.
[I love the T-shirts for each line, my favorite is the 8 Avenue-Fulton Express. A perfect gift for that person who is unfaithful to her husband.]
Huh? Are you saying your wife is unfaithful for taking the A instead of "Mr. D. Train"? Or maybe for going out to a club that plays Duke Ellington music? What is the connection exactly between the A-train T-shirt and unfaithfulness?
It would make a lot more sense if the A train didn't use a blue letter, but rather a "Scarlet Letter."
BTW, I'm not married.
I just found out that I will not be able to attend today's Fan Trip to the Rockaways and Long Beach. Sorry for the late notice.
I was at Bowling Green and had some time, so I decided to look for where the entrance was to the the old shuttle platform and was surprised to find the stairs open without even so much as a closed sign. Is this a recent development, or have they been open all this time?
They've been open all along. The escalator to that platform, however, has been cannibalized. The platform used to be for the South Ferry shuttle, which was dicontinued in the mid 70s.
-Hank
Really? I've been there a couple of times and never noticed that staircase. And a motorman started yelling at me for standing there and taking pictures.
Well I was suprised to see the R110A Running today ofcause Out of Service. I spotted it going Northbound at Rectors Street. It must have came down the Lexington Ave Line. Anyway as I was going Northbound I seen it at 242 St/Bway Terminal from 238 Street.Then It went in the Middle adjacent 238 Street. I don't know if it also went in 240 Yard but they looked like they were going to do a reverse move.
Perhaps someone is studying the feasibility of having the R142s on the Broadway Local. If that's the case, then for certain the R62As will be kicked of the 1.
-Stef
[ Perhaps someone is studying the feasibility of having the R142s on the
Broadway Local. If that's the case, then for certain the R62As will be
kicked of the 1. ]
What could be unfeasable about it? I could see some difficulties on some lines, i.e. the 3 with Lenox yard and 9 car trains, the 7 might be awkward to get to certain shops (and people might expect 11 cars), but what would be difficult about the 1?
Maybe they're worried that the new cars will fall off of the broadway viaduct :) (ouch).
Well the No.1 Broadway Line has 10 R62A cars from the No.6 Line. I had that train on my last trip. Operating Motor No.1865
One more thing I would like to add. Some of you may know this but Pelham is starting to lose its R62A'S. Lets take a look at the Number of cars that left already.
No.1 Line has 10 cars from Pelham.
No.3 Line has 13 Cars from Pelham 1901-1914 1909 Unknown
No.5 Line 20 cars from pelham
What Line will get them next?
Because #5 gets two R62As from #6, two R33s from the 239 Street Yard go to #6.
I believe some cars from other yards will go to Pelham.
Chaohwa
Hey Dave Sr. Don't forget the R62a #1915 because i took the picture two weeks ago & it on my subway's page. Damn that my favorite line and subway cars.
Peace Out
Meaney
Hey Dave Sr. Don't forget the R62a #1915 on #3 line & it on my subway's page. Damn that my favorite line and subway cars.
Peace Out
Meaney
What could they be up to?
-Stef
Thats a good Question.
Maybe it is a temporary reassignment. I don't see the IRT too often but: aren't the #1 cars being linked now? That would create a car shortage, plus don't forget the #6 has 10 more cars to play with since the TSQ-GCT shuttle now uses cars from Livonia. Just a thought.
Yes they are linking up the cars. This started a year ago. Now the No.6 didn't save 10 cars from the shuttle because they went to the No.3 Line to help out since they taken control of the shuttle.
A friend asks me, "what is the first year of the 21st century?"
I think of the NYC subway car assignment; for example, R-1 was from 100 to 399. Therefore, my answer is Year 2000.
Then he asks another question, "what is the first year of the 1st century?" He gets me.
Is my answer right about the 21st century?
I know it is not related to NYC subway, but I have the inspiration from the NYC subway.
Chaohwa
Here's a hint...there was no Year 0 AD. This is a great outrage
to all C programmers.
Nor was there a 0 BC. For the same reason that you've NEVER seen a Roman Numeral 0.
Since it is generally agreed there was no year zero, mathematically the 21th Century begins January 1, 2001, since the 2000th year will then have reached completion.
However, as with subway car numbering, most everyone will count January 1, 2000 as the beginning of the century and the millennium.
None of this is more than a curiosity unless you believe that some religious or catastrophic event will accompany the beginning of the new millennium.
As has already been pointed out, what's the big deal about the Y2K problem? What about the much bigger Y0K problem, when the year 1 BC was followed by the year AD 1 (or 1 CE, if you prefer), and people had to learn to count the years up instead of down?
Y0K problem? Seems to me that happened in the middle of 3761, by my calendar at least.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The "new millennium" only begins this coming January because the media is impatient. (Though I work in the media, I consider myself a scientist first.) The rest of us will watch the "odometer change" with delight then wait until Y2K+1 for the REAL new millennium.
Since I graduate the REAL first year of the
millenium I say 2001 and won't do any New Millenium
celebrating until then:)
The year the Cubbies win the World Series will be the Millennium.
Sounds like a wish for the end of the world.
1907 and 1908 were the Millennium?
... you mean the END of the millenium? :)
--Mark
Just watched the MTV show, Downtown. The whole show was based on the subway. Two girls and two guys were on a race to Coney Island. The girls wanted to take the B train from W.4. They ended up on the F. They caught up to a B but the doors closed. They tried to get back on the F but the doors closed. They somehow ended up on the M and transfered to the R. The only problem is that they ended up at Prince St, which meant that they ended up back in Manhattan.
The guys figured out to take the N to CI. They boarded the N at 8St. The ride was going great. Until they reach Ave.U. That was the end of the line due to construction. (Why do 86 St come to mind?) This part was funny because in one scene they show the track workers eatin on the tracks, then the next scene they show bumper blocks at Ave.U(which was elevated btw) and the men working on the tracks.
False stuff: They showed the M as the 4Av Express. The N was elevated in Brooklyn.
True Stuff: The side destination side on the N was correct. The girls complained that the F was the slowest train...
3TM.
How did the side destination signs light up? Was it controlled maually or by computer? How come the lighting of side destination signs was discontinued?
3TM
Side signs were lit up when the motorman threw the reverser key into forward. On lines such as the #1, where a loop was involved, there was a button in the motorman's cab called something like "Destination Sign Loop Changeover", which the motorman would push once he hit the loop station. Most of the fluorescent bulbs in the side signs were white, but I can remember the signs on the 7 line being green. (It ain't easy being green.)
Actually, all the cars from the R16 through the R36 had green
flourescent tubes when the cars were new. It was a light, minty shade of green, but those didn't seem to last long, I'd guess around 1965 the white tubes started showing up whenever one was replaced.
The destination signs themselves were screen printed on canvas on all the cars until, I think, the R33/36WF cars. They were the first ones with the mylar signs, and the thing I noticed is that they collected a lot of soot/dust/dirt, so the white letters (actually the part of the mylar that was not covered with the black printers'ink) would start turning black.
So why were they discontinued??
So why were they discontinued??
3TM
Perhaps the most unusual backlit destination signs were on the Triplexes. They were canvas, painted in silver on the reverse side, so that when they weren;t lit, the dstination was pretty much invisible.
They should use the new type LCD that appears on NJT, Peter Pan, and at least one Grey Line tour bus. It is the same lemon yellow, and the letters light on a dark background, unlike the R-44/46. Not only is it much more visible, but with the font being in block letters like the original R-16-38 signs, AND with the color, it would be very reminiscent of the old signs, with the added convenience of being digital.
Those are the same type of matrix signs that are used on the new buses. They are flip-dots, with a yellow LED (not LCD) that reflects off the dot, instead of a pair of flourescant tubes, that would occasionally leave the sign illegible at night, and work effectively through the dirt buildup as well.
They tested a matrix sign on a set of R44 (just as they tested the LCD signs on the R46). As both signs were made by Luminator (the leader in these types of signs) so it was just a choice of the best design. Apparantly, the vibration on the matrix signs did them in, odd considering that buses vibrate more.
-Hank
No, what I'm talking about is definitely LCD. Take a closer look at it. It is much brighter than the LEd/flipdot. Grand Central uses the same thing on the new arrival.departure boards, except that the letters are white instead of yellow.
I have samples of the original R33-36WF signs, and they were still the canvas material. The first mylar signs of which I am aware showed up on the R32s.
The R-32s still had green backlit signs into the late 60s. I can still mentally picture a green "57th St." or "Coney Island" sign from my first subway experience in 1965.
Those backlit signs were most likely a high maintenance item, which is probably why they were no longer included on the slant R-40s and everything else since then. They were still functional on those cars which had them until the mid-80s, when older units were retired and the newer cars went to GOH. Apparently this feature has now been disabled on the Redbirds, R-32s, and R-38s.
The R-68's do have the fixtures for flourescent lighting in the signs! I saw the sockets when a sign was missing. They just never used them.
In that case, perhaps the slant R-40s, R-40Ms, R-42s, and R-62s also have light sockets. I'm not sure if the Redbirds, R-32s, or R-38s do; however, they do have their original sign boxes.
8/13/99 4:35P
This talk about side destination signs brings to mind a couple of things. Back in the mid 80"s when the R-10's were being overhauled becoming the green machines,I rode one on the 8th Ave local north of 59th St and discovered that the florescent tube was lit up green. Kinda dim but was lit up green. It never saw any other green R-10's like that afterward.
While we're on the subject of green florescent tubes,how many of you out there remember this. The R-40 slants before GOH had the back lit advertising cards which made the cars a little darker. Since the area by the storm door was dark and the large advertising card was hard to see,the TA installed a compact flourescent fixture with white tube.
Back in the early seventies I do remember one,line unknown that did not have a white tube but one of the old green tubes!! Kinda psychedelic,don't remember if any other cars the green tubes. Maybe the white ones were out of stock and the shop crews install one of those old green ones to deplete the stock. If you saw any back then,let's hear from you.
Bill Newkirk
I remember occasionally seeing that when the Slants were on the "E" and "F" lines. Never in an R40A. Always the Non-A/C Slants. Do you remember - they also installed the green tubes behind the end signs, giving the magenta "F" a sickly appearance and the light blue "E" a green appearance.
Wayne
8/13/99 9:41P
Yes Wayne!,I remember that too. Since they were the same tubes they must have used whatever was laying around until they ordered the correct ones. Those sign did look rather funky since the colors were shifted !
Bill Newkirk
All R16 - R38 used the green tubes in the 1960's.
I was wondering what the tunnel shapes and designs are for all the subway tunnels that go under the East River.
I've rode on the E through the tunnel, and the E/F tunnels under the river are in the shape of a tube. The ones for the 7 are like a half-circle, and for the N/R they are sqaure.
What are the tunnel shapes for the other lines that go under the East river? Which ones do you like the best?
I know the 2,3,4,and 5 tunnels from Brookklyn into Manhattan are tubes. I believe the A,C,M,N,and R are the same as well. Cannot comment on the F. I havent been in the Rutgers tube for years now....
3TM
It's a tube too, just like Cranberry. The York Street station has rounded walls over the trackways, like High Street.
Wayne
Thanks for the info Wayne. I guess that will be on the list of series of railfan trips......
3TM
The 14th St. tunnel is also a tube. Except for the 63rd St. tunnel, which was built by the sunken tube method, all other East River tunnels were built by the shield method.
What seating design do you think is nice for the subway, the bench style used on R40 and prior, or the bucket style used on the newer trains?
I personally find the bucket style much nicer and more comfortable, and like the forward and backward facing seats. In general it is less comfortable sitting sideways in those bench style ones, and you get squashed more when it's crowded.
Of course the R68's used on the IRT are an exception, they have only sideways bucket seats because of the narrower IRT design.
Another reason why I like riding the BMT and IND, and really dislike riding the IRT sometimes.
The most uncomfortable train is the "Redbirds" on the Flushing Line.
I always get squashed and better off standing. (also gets hot in summer)
Most comfortable train, well personally I like the R44s and R46's the best of all subway cars.
If you like the bucket seats you must have a very slim build. The seats, as I understand it, were designed to Japanese standards for size - at least four inches narrower than American standards, which are still too cramped. Like most Americans, I don't fit. I'll take one railfan window, or barring that, a bench seat!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I think someone posted that the R-142s are going back to the bench-type seats, though I guess we'll know for sure in a couple of months.
The correct story is not that the seats are 'Japanese', but that the TA wanted a certain number of seats in each car. Kawasaki (and thus Bombardier) then reduced the size of the seats, IIRC, 3/4".
-Hank
[The correct story is not that the seats are 'Japanese', but that the TA wanted a certain number of seats in each car. Kawasaki (and thus Bombardier) then reduced the size of the seats, IIRC, 3/4".]
Ah, yes, just like the air steerage seating on the 777 and the newer models of 737. Corporate greed (in the case of the airlines) and management shortsightedness (in the case of the NCYTA) know no bounds.
CH
I can't say for sure, but I think only the R-62 and R-62A seats are Japanese standard - the seats on the R-68 and R-68A definitely _seem_ larger, even if they are not necessarilly keeping pace with the ever-increasing size of the typical American couch potato (myself included, to my everlasting shame:-().
I prefer the forward facing buckets. Unfortunately they don't make them wide enough. I have broad whoulders and am forced to lean forward if there is anyone sitting next to me. We have all noticed on the forward/backward facing seats that the person on the outside seat is always turned outward. This is because the seats are too narrow for two ordinary people to sit next to each other.
Were these seats designed by midgets or something???
I prefer the sideways buckets, I can't fit in the forward/back buckets. Although I think that the legroom there is the same as on the bus, on the the bus your legs are pushing against the back of a seat instead of right into a person's side. On the train, I either have to sit with my legs turned towards the window, or spread, the latter being less preferable. The aisle forward seat is worse because your legs are intersecting with another's. So basically the aisle forward/back seats are the worst, and the window seats actually, are the third (or second on R-68) best to me (after the sideways wall seat and the sideways door seat except on the R-68).
Forward and backwards facing seats are nice, but the nature of subway rapid transit ("rapid "NYC joke lol) is that as many people have to be squeezed into a car as possible. Forward & backwards facing seats reduce standee capacity. R68 cars are not used on the IRT because they are too long and wide. But it would be a great fantasy to put them on the IRT to destroy them! The silver cars on the IRT are the R62 and R62A.
I will give 1 "ATTABOY" to whoever gets this right!! Which LIRR station which is on a diesel line and served only by diesel actually had electric train service over 30 years ago which terminated at that station. Hint: The 3rd rail is still there and I'm sure many people have wondered why its there!!! I will also post this question at NYRAIL at www.railroad.net
If you're thinking of East Williston, there's actually still electric service there. One inbound trip in the morning, departing at 7:28 a.m. and arriving at Penn Station at 8:14 a.m.
The only 1 I can think of is east williston...I remember when it was the last stop for the local train making all stops to that station.
[I will give 1 "ATTABOY" to whoever gets this right!! Which LIRR station which is on a diesel line and served only by diesel actually had electric train service over 30 years ago which terminated at that station.
Hint: The 3rd rail is still there and I'm sure many people have wondered why its there!!!]
Long Island City
ONE ATTABOY TO TODD GLICKMAN
for correctly answering East Williston. I did not know about the present morning train. Thanks for the info. I remember when there was no 3rd rail past Mineola on the main line (towards Carle Place & Westbury) and all the electric trains through Mineola went to E. Williston.
Mark O'Neil gets the ATTTABOY at NY railfan forum @ railroad.net
Thanks, Jeff. That one was easy for me -- I grew up a seven-minute walk from Albertson station (just past East Williston). One weekday when I didn't have school I made my mother drive me to EW so that I could take the lone electric train from there. Back then (in the 70s), the train made ALL local stops to Jamaica: Mineola, Merillon Avenue, New Hyde Park, Floral Park (one of the few trains to use the Main Line platform), Queens Village, Bellaire, Hollis, and Union Hall Street. For the past 20 years or so, it has not stopped at any of the Hempstead line stations.
Doesn't it still stop at Floral-Park?
Wayne
Yes it does.
The subject of Main Line trains stopping at Hempstead branch stations brings me to an odd pastime of mine -- noticing which LIRR trains make stops off their normal "branches" (for example, Long Beach trains stopping at Rosedale, Laurelton or Locust Manor) and then trying to understand the rationale for that scheduling.
The strangest of all seems to be the 6:00 AM train from Farmingdale to Penn -- stops at Bethpage, Hicksville, Queens Village (!) and Jamaica before Penn. Has to be one of the stranger runs on the LIRR. Does anyone have any others?
Probably some important LIRR executive(or family member) has to get from Farmingdale to Queens Village in the morning!!!!
If that's the case, they must be getting a ride home -- since there are no eastbound trains from QV to Farmingdale. (Of course, that wouldn't be surprising, given some MTA execs penchant for limo service over using the product).
Actually, I think the reason for the QV stop in this case is to provide westbound service from Queens Village without requiring a train from Hempstead to cross over the Main Line tracks during the peak period. There's a Hempstead branch train which skips QV about 10 minutes before this one.
There actually used to be a few of these trains (Main Line trains stopping at QV and sometimes Hollis) whenever the schedule called for a Hempstead/Flatbush to meet at Jamaica with a Huntington/Penn train. But this is the only one on the schedule now.
My favorite oddity is that St. Albans station in Queens is shown on the West Hempstead branch timetable.
Except for two a.m. trains and one p.m. train, all the St. Albans trains are, AFAIK, Babylon Line trains.
So someone who actually wants to go from one of the dozen plus Babylon stations to St. Albans would have to do some careful cross-checking to figure out which trains stop at St. Albans, while someone who wanted to go from West Hempstead to St. Albans (supposedly on the same line) would be mostly SOL.
I love that one too. St. Albans is essentially a Babylon line stop during the week, and is exclusively a West Hempstead line stop on weekends.
Of course, the first person to actually spot a passenger travelling between St. Albans and any Long Island station gets a dime.
Talk about SOL. There used to be some notation in the timetables that because of the limited service at St. Albans, passengers were advised to take trains to and from the "nearby" Locust Manor and Hollis stations.
[Talk about SOL. There used to be some notation in the timetables that because of the limited service at St. Albans, passengers were advised to take trains to and from the "nearby" Locust Manor and Hollis stations.]
It looks like many people took that advice. Very few people seem to use St. Albans - half of the platform has been closed off - even though it's in what looks like a fairly densely populated area. They must be using Locust Manor, or taking buses to Jamaica, because Hollis is nearly a "ghost station" itself.
Not too many use Locust Manor, either, but enough to warrant reasonable service levels. It's by far the least utilized of the Rosedale/Laurelton/Locust Manor trio, despite its dense population base (the station is located at the SE corner of Rochdale Village).
The density around St. Albans is lower, with the massive St. Albans hospital grounds bordering the station to the west and mostly one and two family homes to the east. The only passengers I've ever seen getting on or off at St. Albans have been one or two nurses. This is probably the only reason the station still exists.
Hollis, as I remember it (I haven't been a regular commuter on the LIRR for a few years), was a bigger off-peak stop than on-peak. I recall that there was pretty heavy ridership on weekends between Hollis and the stations on the Flatbush Avenue branch (the same goes for Locust Manor). I suspect that was why the LIRR changed their weekend schedules back to having direct service from Flatbush to Hempstead on the weekends (they had always been that way and then for a brief period weekend service was Hempstead/Penn after the massive weekend schedule overhaul).
In any case, I suspect that ridership from all three stations -- Hollis, St. Albans and Locust Manor -- has taken a dive since the introduction of free MetroCard transfers between the bus and subway.
Chuck
[ The strangest of all seems to be the 6:00 AM train from Farmingdale to
Penn -- stops at Bethpage, Hicksville, Queens Village (!) and Jamaica
before Penn. Has to be one of the stranger runs on the LIRR. Does
anyone have any others? ]
I remember taking a late train to Oyster bay (maybe leaving Jamaica at 11:40 or so), which made local stops at New Hyde Park and Merrilon Ave..
I also remember, and I think this was during the Herricks Rd project, going westbound on a train from hicksville which made at least Merillon, New Hyde Park, Queens Village and Hollis.
Prior to electrification out to Huntington, nearly all Oyster Bay trains made local stops at New Hyde Park and Merillon Avenue. Now, most have their first stop at Mineola. The following trains skip Mineola:
5:33pm from Penn Station eastbound
6:08pm from Penn Station eastbound
6:29am from Oyster Bay westbound
No prize for this one but honorable mention here on Subtalk for the correct response.
The R-11s were given the nickname, "The Million Dollar Train".
After they were modified, they received a much less flattering name. Anyone care to make a guess?
HINT: Garbage was not in the 2-word name.
(Without reading the subsequent posts): EAST WILLISTON.
Doesn't one MU train originate from/terminate there per rush hour?
Wayne
[ Doesn't one MU train originate from/terminate there per rush hour? ]
Originate only. LIRR #1501, 7:28AM (I think it gets in there going eastbound as equipment train #4500).
The day started out pleasant enough ... sunny clear skys with a forcast of rain that night. Also the humidity was low, which is why I rushed the date and didn't provide too much notice of the trip.
My trip was done on just ONE Fun Pass. It started in College Point (well I cheated a little because I got a ride to Main Street, instead of taking one of our coaches on the Q25 or Q65).
- At 4 PM I boarded Red Bird R33 #9619. It contained kind of an internal wrap. The whole inside was devoted to violance against women, incl. photos in 12 second intervals of victims and side walls with some text and the number to call "1-800-621-HOPE". As we appraoched Willets Point our driver stopped for a red light to let an extra on the line. He continuted to wait as the light turned yellow, then green. What this did for us was provide a steady ride vs. stop & go following to close to that other train. At Queens Plaza the preceeding train met a Slant 40. At Hunters Point there was a dbl decker waiting (422 in lead & 5019 trailing).
- At Times Sq. I caught a Budd R-32 A. It was a very pleasent ride (smooth & fast). I arrived in Jay St at 4:55. Went upstairs & reserved at table for Doug at Burger King, as planned.
- At Jay about 6:05 I saw AJ from NJ walking down the platform. He had got a little turned around (being a NJT customer he was a little out of his element). We caught a Hippo (R-68), it was packed & the A/C was out.
- Stopped at Utica & saw the Childern's Cathedral mosaic, very nice.
- Missed the planned stop at Liberty to see "To Richmond Hill" sign & other evidence of IND II.
- Stopped at Rockaway Blvd. and saw the abandoned Norht portion of the LIRR Rockaway Branch. Also took several photos of As comming and going.
- Saw the Aqueduct Raceway station (one side) and then started or long run to Far Rockaway accross Jamaica Bay. Took photos of bridges, Kennedy Airport, & appraoch to Broad Channel (subway comming to an island ...kool)
- At Broad Channel saw the Shuttle on a siding.
- At Far Rockaway walked accross the street to a parking lot and in a couple of minutes the 7:20 N33 arrived. After a few minutes on the bus the neighaborhood improved & the ride became very enjoyable.
- Crossed the channel between Rockaway & Long Beach then proceeded down Park Street. 1st was Atlantic Beach with large homes & little grass around each, then we came to the hippy area (small homes stacked right next to one and other). Here are a lot of very nice & afforable eateries. Doug pointed out a couple he had stopped at on his bike trips.
- We arrived at the LIRR/Bus depot at 7:50. A N15 pulled in so I caught it, while Doug & AJ chose the LIRR.
- My coach was a new Orion CNG with the automated announcement & passenger display. I verified that the anouncement matched the stops with two interesting ones: Hempstead Incinerator and K-Mart. The former is closed & the latter isn't open yet (Caldor went out of business, so the store is empty now).
- At 8:20 I left the N15 for a two block walk home.
Mr t__:^)
Hi, Thurston!
Just wanted to say, thanks for your 'spur-of-the-moment' trip.
AJ and I stopped at the Wendy's that's adjacent to the Long Beach station. He was starving -- and picked up a meal to go so we could catch the 8:14 to Flatbush. AJ -- having never ridden on the LIRR before, marveled at the similiarities between the M-3s -- that he is accustomed to on MetroNorth -- and the M-1s.
I took the train to the East New York station and was surprised to see that I was not the only one to get off there. I got an L train almost immediately and was home by 9:20 pm. AJ of course got off at Jamacia for a Penn Station train (which was waiting across the platform).
Although the turn-out wasn't exactly what was expected, the smaller group made for easier conversation.
The only thing we could have asked for was better weather. Too bad it was coming done as we got to Long Beach -- I would have enjoyed grabbing a slice of Pizza or a Kinish on the boardwalk. (Well, there's always next time).
Doug aka BMTman
Your trip sounded very interesting. I would have loved to have come, but it would be too difficult on a Tuesday night, as I have to be up at 5:00 a.m. Tuesday through Friday.
You caught an R-68 at Jay Street?! Are those running on the 'A' now? Heaven forbid! Perhaps you meant an R-44; those are almost as slow.
On a side note, I plan to be at Seashore Columbus Day weekend for the New York fest. I took my family there on Monday the 2nd, and even my wife, a transit pragmatist, was impressed enough to want to come back. We could go either day depending on the weather, but are leaning toward Saturday. Is anyone else planning to go?
Howard, do you mean Seashore (Kennebunkport) or Shore Line (Branford)? At Seashore we have our "Members' Day" festivities. I'm sure there will be a NY cars to see and ride, but we don't have a "New York Day."
My mistake- I meant Shore Line in East Haven, CT. I might have the actual terminology wrong, but that museum is scheduled to showcase the NYC cars they have in stock the weekend of October 9-10: The R-17, the BMT Standard and others.
Yes, I believe you are correct on that Howard. Shoreline/Branford would be a great trip for Columbus Day weekend (I can say that since I'm a member there too!).
But for those of you who might like to take a longer trip up to Seashore in Kennebunkport, even though it's known as "Members' Weekend" non-members are certainly welcome. A large variety of cars will no doubt be on the loose, but our collection of NYC cars at Seashore is not as large as Branford's. Our primary NYC operational car is TARS 631; Brooklyn wooden convertible 4547 rests comfortably in our prime exhibit barn; our IRT Gibbs Car and LIRR MP-54 are currently not operational; and R4/R7A 800/1440 make rare trips though are available for viewing.
Visit the Museum of your choice -- one of these, or Baltimore, Kingston, IRM, Rio Vista Junction...
It would be a great idea, but taking a three-year-old on a car trip all the way to Maine from New York City is akin to waiting for an outbound 'L' at Wilson Avenue upper level at 4:00 a.m. As it was, the seventy-mile trip to East Haven was an ordeal.
Maybe when he's older. In the meantime, we still have lots of NYC subway system to cover.
Nice plug for Seashore, and it was also gracious of you to acknowledge the other sites in this area.
I'll probally be at Shoreline as a "customer" again to ride the multiple cars.
Howard if the 3 year old can be kept busy you'll be able to ride maybe 8 to 10 different NYC trollys & subways. The trolley guys let Jeff and his subway operator friends play with their trains that day. Somethines they grumble a little (in June they wanted him to move the R-9 that was parked on the line for all to look at. The H&M was also parked on the loop. I for one loved the static display !
Mr t__:^)
I hope to make it to Shore Line on Columbus Day weekend. Not sure of the day though.
I was at Seashore during Members Day last year; I actually didn't know it was members day when I arrived (it was an unscheduled trip). Todd, I asked for you but you weren't there. Instead Jack Coyle took me around and we ended up taking the R1/9s out for one of those rare trips you talked about. It was great to hear those traction motors groaning again!
--Mark
The next time that IND train goes for a spin, maybe someone could plant a tape recorder and tape some of those marvelous sounds. My stereo system would bring it all back to life! Believe me, I would do just that personally if I ever visit Seashore.
I have it on video. I never go to Seashore without a camcorder. IIRC, I stood real close to the air compressor just to record it. Alas, my camcorder at the time wasn't stereo, but it sounds good nonetheless.
--Mark
How about braking sounds? That old familiar AMUE "tchhh-hssss" lap-release sound is music to my ears every bit as much as the moaning and groaning.
The Columbus Day Weekend trip at Shoreline last year (when it was called NY Days) was excellent...I got to ride on many, many different subway and trolley cars from the subway system. It's not expensive either....admission was $5. Also, all the volunteers are very ehlpful and really know what they are talking about. So, if you are in the area, or want to take a drive, I can certainly recommend this! -Nick
[ My mistake- I meant Shore Line in East Haven, CT. I might have the
actual terminology wrong, but that museum is scheduled to showcase the
NYC cars they have in stock the weekend of October 9-10: The R-17, the
BMT Standard and others. ]
The weekend event, occurring this year on October 9th and 10th, has traditionally been called "New York Days", but this year is called "Autumn in New York". This was done principally to differentiate it from another New York-specializing event staged in June.
Indeed it is early to predict the actual event schedule, but I would imagine that R17 #6688 will be there, sporting a fresh coat of paint and some fine bodywork due to the efforts of many volunteers (several of whom post here regularly). Our AB standard, 2775, will certainly be out on display. Some of us have discussed the possibility of putting it in motion as an unpowered trailer, but there would be a significant amount of effort needed to make that possible.
Surely the other usual cast of characters will probably also be there and running, including Low-V 5466, Hi-V 3662, R-9 1689, Gate Car 1227, Streetcars 629, 4573. Others who have appeared in the past include Hudson & Manhattan "Black" car 503, B&QT PCC 1001, Nassau Elec Rwy shear plow #10. Since Convertible Gate Car #1349 has already been hostled to a more accessible location, it might be possible to have it out for display as a work in progress.
(in case you can't tell, I'm kinda looking forward to ny days^h^h^h Autumn in New York!).
R-68 vs. R-44 at Jay Street ... it was big & I was a little scared to enter ... maybe Doug or AJ knows for sure.
For anyone else who was sitting on the fence: This trip would make a great one during the Summer for a few friends or you & family. I like to go somewhere via the subway vs. purposely trying to ride a car type. If I'm able to ride my favorite car type as I'm going from point A to point B, all the better. This trip to Long Beach is fun and planning to stop for supper at one of the fine eateries along Park Street, or at the LIRR/Bus depot or on the Boardwalk or even Pete's Famous Clam Bar on Long Beach Road (via the N15) will make it a night to remember ! Tonight I'll confirm that the old cars still come to Nathan's on Wednesday's.
One word of caution, if you arrive ahead of the N33, you might want to wait at the subway (exit the station, turn to the right, look in the parking lot at the shelter, that's where the bus stops) There's a lunchenette there to buy a soda & hang out. LI Bus 516-766-6722 (schedule seems to be 20 after and 1/4 to the hour ...last night it came right on time).
P.S. City of Long Beach bus will cost you a dollar, no transfers or MetroCards taken.
Mr t__:^)
There's a "To Richmond Hill" sign on the IND in the Liberty Ave station? I'll have to get a shot of that. It must have anticipated the same line that the "To Jamaica and the Rockaways" sign does at 65th Place.
www.forgotten-ny.com
The S-curve between City Hall and Cortlandt Street is very sharp
and I'm surprised that the 75-foot subway cars can make that turn. Why
did they prohibit them on the J, L, M and Z lines? I recently saw an
L and M on the R-68 car roll signs. Why are they there? The 75-foot
cars are prohibited on those lines.
James Li
[The S-curve between City Hall and Cortlandt Street is very sharp
and I'm surprised that the 75-foot subway cars can make that turn. Why
did they prohibit them on the J, L, M and Z lines? I recently saw an
L and M on the R-68 car roll signs. Why are they there? The 75-foot
cars are prohibited on those lines.]
Some work was required to make the curve at City Hall-Cortlandt large enough for the 75-footers. Whisker-like electric sensors were placed on the exterior of an old work car. These sensors made the work car the effective size equivalent of a 75-footer and registered each time they contacted the tunnel wall or other objects. Some sections of the catwalk had to be shaved back to accomodate the larger cars.
Is that why there is a large gap between the 3rd rail and the wall at City Hall coming from Cotrlandt??
3TM
They actually 'stretched' an R1/9 for the job. I have several photos (courtesy Joe Testagrose) of the car perfforming clearance tests.
-Hank
The original R-68 signs came with all the routes, alphabetically, and also all the destinations, for some reason. Newer signs, such as replacements, and the R-68 (and I think R-44/46 as well) don't have these lines.
As I've been saying elsewhere, now that one of the curves on the J,M,Z has been rebuilt, I hope they do clearance tests with them. And even if they still can't clear other curves further out, they'll still at least have access to and be able to travel on the straight portions of the line.
There are a couple of very sharp curves in the subway portion of the Canarsie line which the 75-footers wouldn't be able to negotiate. One possibility would be a revival of the Broadway-Brooklyn service which ran to Atlantic Ave. or Rockaway Parkway.
I recently saw Mr. Joe Korman's scan of the R-27 and R-30 roll
signs. I'm surprised that both IND and BMT lines were on the signs.
When the R-27s and R-30s first arived, what lines were they running on
besides the BMT Southern Division? Did the BMT Eastern Division get
those cars? The J, JJ, KK, L, LL and M markers were on the rollsigns.
James Li
The R-27s and R-30s were originally assigned to the Southern Division. They first began to appear on the Brighton line. Once they had arrived in sufficient numbers, they were also used on the RR, and handled all weekend Southern Division service. They weren't used on the Eastern Division, or anywhere else, for that matter, until after the Chrystie St. connection opened.
As to why the R-27/30s also had IND signs: why not? They were designed to operate on both the IND and BMT. The R-32s also had IND and BMT signs when delivered.
By the time these cars arrived, the Chrystie st connection was in the works. So it made sense to be prepared, even if the TA was (is) not the most forward thinking group around.
Does anyone here have a favorite subway station?
Here in Philly, I vote for Spring Garden St. station on
the MFL because of it's spectacular view and very unusual location.
Up in NYC, I'd have to say the Chambers St station
(J,M,Z). It's the kind of
large, cavernous place you wouldn't expect to find
underground. This massive station impressed me when I
visited it.
Do you have any?
My Faverite station is Bowling Green on the No.4,5 Lines
PBD Sr
Brighton Line: Avenue H (platforms, surroundings, view and photo ops, and unique station house), Beverley, Cortelyou (station house architecture), Coney Island (shared station, self explanatory).
Special Mention: Newkirk Avenue, early 20th century shopping center.
Many others, but the above came readily to mind.
Bway Junction is my favorite. I am always amazed at the complicated trackage and architecture. The L platform to Canarsie is amazing-both curved and graded.
[Up in NYC, I'd have to say the Chambers St station
(J,M,Z). It's the kind of large, cavernous place you wouldn't expect to find underground. This massive station impressed me when I
visited it.]
Er, when did you last visit it? Today the station's in completely decrepit condition. It's really a disgrace that it's been allowed to deteriorate to such an extent.
May. The section I was in was just at the transfer for the IRT at Brooklyn Bridge.
No, not a spectacularly kept place, but I was impressed with it's size.
Go down to the northbound platform and get a look at the lovely leak that's been allowed to fester there! It's DESPICABLE! Even the 1913 station artwork has been allowed to deteriorate, a major crime in my book.
Wayne
I'm going to have to do that.
I'm just getting raked over the coals here:)
No hard feelings, friend! I happen to like Chambers Street station myself, leaks and all. I remember actually being afraid of it as a child, travelling between Brooklyn, Jamaica and Elmont with my parents, and getting off to change from the Nassau Loop train to the #15 there. Back then, it didn't have flourescent light. It used to have these helmet-shaped half-globe iron fixtures that hung down on long rods from the high ceiling. You can still see one or two of them I think, unless they're all gone by now. They used to have large (maybe 200W) incandescent bulbs in them, and there were halophane (textured) glass shades inside the little iron helmets. The "helmet" didn't cover the glass, just four ribs from the fixture's cap to the rim, so light could shine out the sides. It was a real spooky place!
IIRC, they had some of these fixtures on short arms jutting out from the white-tiled pillars.
There are some of these old lights which are set recessed into the ceiling in the north mezzanine, but their bulbs are gone and the sockets are empty. Water leaks out of 'em. You want to see spooky even to this day - go to the north exit and go up the stairs - near the exit there's a fenced-off area where they store stuff and it's only partially lighted. Back off in the gloom you can just picture skeletons and skulls lying about, the bones of their legs in shackles, chained to the iron bars. It looks like Alcatraz.
Wayne
Kind of like the Registry Room at Ellis Island before it was renovated.
Just as bad, if not worse. The concrete in the ceiling over the n/b track has powdered away to mere dust in places, and the iron bones of the station ceiling lie exposed and heavily corroded and rusted. I hope they do something before a big slab comes crashing down. They will have to completely remove what's there and replace it - and they'll have to get the Master Plumbers in to plug the leak.
Read my earlier post about what it USED to look like before they put up the flourescent light and hideous wall on the s/b side.
Wayne
My favorites are both on the #1 line.
Dyckman Street, which is at street level at one end but elevated at the other due to the sloping land. Dyckman stands at the base of one of upper Manhattans huge hills, which the 1 line tunnels into just south of the station. The next station (191) is one of the deepest below street level in the system. From the platform at Dyckman, you can look into the tunnel and realize that the track level doesn't change all that much -- it's the height of the hill that makes 191 so deep.
My other favorite is 125 Street on the 1. Great views from the platform, and another chance to notice just how hilly Manhattan is north of 86th Street.
Chuck
While not necessarily my favorite, I like Court Street on the 4,5,
Manhattan bound side where you could once see (I don't know if it's still like this) the Manhatan bound 2,3 heading straight at you while you're standing on the platform, before the 2,3's turn right into (the other) Court St station.
It is the Brooklyn Bound side of the 4,5 Boro Hall station. Yes, it is still like this today.
3TM
It's Borough Hall and it's still the same. I like going on the Manhattan bound 2/3 as they approach the station, and you see the 4/5 station but you veer away into the other station.
I have a number of favorite NYC subway/elevated stations ... South Ferry on the #1 because it's built on a curve and has the gap fillers ... Stillwell Ave/Coney Island for the sheer activity there ... Smith/9th Sts. for the stunning view ...
... but my favorite would have to be Queensboro Plaza on the N and #7 lines. It combines several of my favorite attributes - double-deck structure, great view of the Queensboro Bridge and midtown Manhattan skyline, plus the cross-platform transfer of IRT and BMT trains (and the ability to get trains from both divisions in the same photograph).
Favorite non-NYC transit station is Charles St. on Boston's Red Line. Catching a train coming over the historic Longfellow Bridge is one of the most scenic transit views available anywhere.
- Jim (RailBus)
I'm also partial to Chambers Street. Yes, it's in poor shape, but it clearly shows how important that line once was. Essex Street with its semi-visible trolley terminal is also neat.
Of architectural or scenic interest are City Hall (6 turnaround), 125th Street (1/9), 168th Street (1/9), Grand Central (7), and Smith-9th (F/G). Of interest due to their sheer complexity are Times Square (1/2/3/7/9/A/C/E/N/R/S), Fulton Street/Broadway-Nassau (2/3/4/5/A/C/J/M/Z), Stillwell Avenue (B/D/F/N), Canal Street (6/J/M/N/R/Z), and Broadway Junction (A/C/J/L/Z)
Other stations of historical interest to me are Essex Street (with the trolley terminal semi-visible)
One of the reasons I was so anxious to go to town by
myself back in May was to explore areas of the system I couldn't do with Ma and Bro clinging to me(since I'm the only one who knows their way around NYC) and Times Square station was at the top of my list.
Ma hates crowds, so she tends to stay away from the
subway(she mentions Times Square by name as the station she hates most) but I love Times Square station.
It's interesting that what turns someone off to something
draws in another.
Well, if you're a master plumber, mason, tilesmith, potter, electrician or concrete worker, then Chambers Street would also be your favorite station because it represents a potential gold mine of work to do! It's gonna take an army of the aforementioned craftsmen/craftswomen to repair it.
ANYWAY - back to the original subject:
My favorite stations, by Division:
Underground Stations:
IND - Utica Avenue ("A", "C")
BMT - (tie) Montrose Avenue, Wilson Avenue ("L")
IRT - Mott Avenue (a/k/a 149th Street-Grand Concourse) (#2/#5)
Elevated Stations:
IND - None.
BMT - Broadway Junction ("L")
IRT - (tie) Simpson Street (#2/5), Bedford Park Boulevard (#4)
Wayne
These come to mind:
- Coney Island - Stillwell Ave. Great train watching and Nathan's so close by.
- Broadway / East New York. Complicated junction always amazed me. Also for its historical significance of a major hub for Brooklyn's elevated lines.
- 168th St (1/9).
--Mark
some faves,
Philly: the 30th Street MFL complex including the now sealed connections to the PRR platforms
New York: 34/B'way The IND station which is like spagheti laced in between the BMT and PATH
Chicago: Randolph St IC/CSS&SB the acrid aromatic ambience of a Times Square, the heavy duty mainline in the gloom of a Stygian cavern and(showing my age) the sound of the old green Pullman's starting out!
A sentimental favorite is my old "home" station, 42nd St.-8th Ave. with its offset platforms and ghostly lower level, and southbound A trains roaring full tilt past the uptown platform.
59th St. Columbus Circle is another, with its center platform. I still remember boarding a train or two from it before it was closed.
Others: the Times Square complex, DeKalb Ave., Hoyt-Schermerhorn, Stillwell Ave.
My favorite station of all time would probably be the Sands St. station. Too bad it was demolished before most of us were born!
My favorite current station is Broadway Junction, with Times Square following close behind.
I liked Dean Street. I actually felt sorry for it, with its sagging wooden platforms and rickety old lights in little wire cages.
Another one I liked that's gone is 210th-Williamsbridge (a/k/a 210th-Gun Hill Road) on the #8. One of the more breathtaking curves in the system was right at its north end.
Wayne
What is the condition and structural strength of NY's elevated subway structures?
I know that the old Els, which were torn down, did not have the strength to carry steel cars. The remaining El's were built by two different entities -- the IRT and BMT -- three if you count the Smith/9th Viaduct. Are they all equal?
Which were built to carry lighter trains and then upgraded, vs. built to carry steel trains to start with? How much does each shake when a train goes over? Are there metal fatigue issues? Speed limits? Is the Southern Blvd line worse off because it was built before the Dual Contracts? Why does the Flushing Line shake so much?
Opinions welcome.
[ELs] ... Which were built to carry lighter trains and then upgraded, vs. built to carry steel trains to start with?
Built to carry lighter trains, some upgraded:
Broadway (Brooklyn) - Jamaica El
White Plains Road Line between 149th and 180th
Broadway (Manhattan) Manhattan Valley Viaduct, El between Dyckman St and Van Cortlandt Park
Broadway /East New York Complex
Myrtle Av - Metropolitan Ave
Built to carry steel equipment:
Smith/9th St viaduct
Pelham Bay Line, Bronx
Flushing Line, Queens
Jerome Ave Line, Bronx
Astoria Line, Queens
White Plains Road Line, 180th St to 241st St, Bronx
West End Line, Brooklyn
Culver Line, Brooklyn
Brighton Line (Neptune Ave to Stillwell Ave), Brooklyn
How much does each shake when a train goes over?
This is no means scientific, but my perception is that the West End, Brighton and Culver Lines shake very little. The Smith/9th St viaduct doesn't seem to shake at all. The Flushing Line shakes some, but not a great deal, and very little along the Queens Blvd viaduct. The White Plains Road line didn't shake too much either. The Pelham Bay Line shakes HORRIBLY, especially at Elder Ave. (Try taking a picture as a train enters or leaves the station. You'll feel it real good!) I can't remember if the others did or didn't; I guess that if they didn't make much of an impression on me, they didn't shake more than expected.
--Mark
Smith-Ninth Street's El structure is steel incased in concrete, so the vibrations are muffled to a certain degree.
The Broadway-East New York El that services the J/Z and L trains does indeed move quite a bit when a train approaches or departs. This is of course one of the oldest El structures (at least in the borough of Brooklyn).
Doug aka BMTman
The line on Southern Blvd from 149th to 180th sure seems rickety. One of the many impossible dreams I have is to replace it with a subway up Third Ave/Boston Post Road. Southern Blvd is so close to the Pelham Bay Line its a waste, while areas further West never recovered from the loss of service when the 3rd Avenue El. was lost.
Hey Doug aka BMTman,
You mentioned the Broadway line to East NY. How about Alabama Ave
to Cypress Hills? This should be the oldest section of "el" in the whole city. What about on a straight section of line when an approaching train comes to a halt on the next station down the line?
Don't you feel the structure sway back and forth? Due chiefly to enertia I guess. Shouldn't elevated structures have some "give" to expansion and contraction due to extreme hot and cold weather ?
I haven't heard of any structures falling down from being rickity,unless you count the elevated West Side Highway collapse in 1973. Just a few thoughts!
Bill Newkirk
Well, all structures move to SOME extent, and yes, there probbly has to be "some" give. How much is questionable. But remember - movement doesn't break things, stress does!!!! As long as your not exceeding any maximum stresses, or (more exactly) the endurance limit, you can wiggle all you want - nothing is likely to happen.
[But remember - movement
doesn't break things, stress does!!!! As long as your not exceeding any maximum stresses, or (more exactly) the endurance limit, you can wiggle
all you want - nothing is likely to happen.]
Have you heard of the world's first commercial jet airliner, the Comet? The early models had a habit of falling out of the sky, even though no maximum stresses were exceeded.
Two words: metal fatigue.
CH
Yes, I've heard of the Comet. You have to realize, there are a NUMBER of major differences between the Comet and an El structure:
1) The Comet, like most aircraft, is built to be light. In retrospect, the engineers at DeHaviland went too far - supposedly you could *see* the body expand and contract durring pressureasation cycles (Not unheard of - a DC-9 swells by about 1/16th of an inch in diameter at cruise). An el structure obviously doesn't have to be built lightweight.
2) The Comet was made out of aluminum - and aluminum sucks in fatigue. I'm not aware of any aluminum El structures in NYC.
The downfall of the Comet *was* fatigue - a totally new concept in aircraft failure in the early 50's. The British, with their investigation, broke quite a bit of new ground. Yes, you can get fatigue without comming close to the maximum stress. That's why such things as Stress Vs Number (SN) of Cycle curves exist. I'm sure if you did a calculation of the stresses at the corners of the windows (where the failures started - corners cause stress concentrations - that's why modern planes have rounded windows), you'd be close, or outside, of the curve.
For those who don't know:
An SN curve basically says that at stress Y, you can load / unload a material X times, before it's likely to break. At the maximum stress, this is one time - you load and it breaks. However, at lower (and they can be MUCH lower) stresses, a material may be able to be cycled say 10,000 times, before breaking. At some stress, the number of cycles stops having an effect - that's your "endurance limit" Stay below that limit, and, in theroy, you can cycle forever - the material won't break.
I'd be more worried about the effects of pigeons, weather, etc, on the structure than any potential cycling that's happening (though it could reduce the strength of a member). In any case, I'm sure the NYCTA's engineers are aware that the el structures shake when trains stop and start.....
Yes, I've heard of the Comet. You have to realize, there are a NUMBER of major differences between the Comet and an El structure
.. but not between the Comet aircraft and the Comet automobile (made by Mercury). The car had a habit of falling off the road ... what a rustbucket!!
--Mark
I'll argue that one! I put many, many miles on a '64.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Then there's the Manhattan Bridge. But maybe we shouldn't go there.
There were a few other segments which were built to Dual Contracts standards; i. e., handle steel subway equipment:
Fulton St. line between 80th-Hudson and Lefferts Blvd. (the portion above Liberty Ave.)
Jamaica Ave. line from Cypress Hills to 168th St.
In addition, a portion of the Fulton St. el (Franklin Ave.(?) to Broadway Junction) was upgraded as part of the Dual Contracts in anticipation of being tied into the BMT subway network at DeKalb Ave.
Some of you may recall that I had a meeting at the South Ferry office of NYC-DOT today. I was almost a suit ... wore my sports Jacket, but no tie, was too hot. Used my new CitySearch Special MC Fun Pass. Could have used my ID to board our equip., drivers knew me, so I didn't have to. Therefore swiped three times for $4 vs. 1.50 X 3.
To Wayne, I copied down some equip. numbers just for you, enjoy.
- At 8:52 caught our QM-2, Orion CNG #551. Nice trip on the LIE, got one of the two magazines I brought read.
- At 34th caught the F, R-46 ?
- At Broadway caught #6, Red Bird #8678
- At City Hall walked across the platform for a #5, Red Bird #8749
- Did the meeting. Nice view of the harbor from the 4th floor conference room. Saw several ferrys come & go ... was had to pay attention to the subject, but I managed, even asked a few questions.
- At South Ferry caught #1, R-62A
- Went to Times Sq. & Grand Central TA Museums, it was lunch time.
Used Shuttle R-62A #1946 to go cross-town.
- At Grand Central caught #6, Red Bird #9479 to 59th.
- At 57th & 3rd caught #551 again. Both the driver & I were suprised to see each other again that day (was his 3rd & last trip)
- At Linden Blvd. a GMC-RTS #215 happened to arrive so I hopped onboard & saved 2 or the 3 block walk back to the office.
P.S. Only the Grand Central Museum has any of the special Mets MC Fun Passes & they only have 8/9 & 8/10. I needed 8/10, i.e. African-Am Night.
P.P.S. My ride on OUR equipment was pleasent, the bus was clean & the A/C worked. I was proud of the driver who persuaded the two seniors to pay full fare ... they had a regular value MC with enough for one fare left.
Ever hear the LIRR/Metro-North ads where they tell you to travel worry-free to NYC. Well yesterday, 8 commuters found out just what worry-free means and how much the LIRR values it's customers.
Yesterday at the Islip train Station (Montauk Branch) some time after 3 AM, eight vehicles were vandalized in the commuter parking lot. Seven of them, mine included, had 4 tires slashed. One lucky worry-free commuter had 4 tires slashed plus his/her windshield, read and side windows smashed as well. The Suffolk County Police responded within a 1/2 hour and took my report. The LIRR was more efficient. They took the report over the phone. They were so worry-free that they didn't bother to send a LIRR Police car to the site.
Now Sears sells tires for my car for $11.95 each (not a mis-print) so my economic loss was small. My car was back on the road with-in 2 1/2 hours. No big deal. However I am personally irate at the lack of concern, the worry-free attitude, that the LIRR Management shows its' customers. I do not intend to let it rest. I intend to report the incident at Islip Town Hall where my tax dollars go to the LIRR to pay for the maintenance & security at the station. I also intend to send Tom Prenaghast a letter expressing my personal disgust at his organization's lack of concern for it's customers.
Its early in the morning. Maybe it was a group of worthless teens.
They hang out in my neighborhood at night. Blasting their music and racing their cars. I don't see the PD much. How is the station? At night is it dark? Quiet? How many cars were there?
Hope they didn't steal anything. If you want to get vandel proof glass. Its expensive but in your case its worth it. If you really want to be safe, leave the car at home.
"If you want to get vandel proof glass. Its expensive but in your case its worth it."
My station car is a 1992 Geo Metro and hardly worth the expense. Yeah, no doubt they were worthless teens who in the wee hours of the AM, they got themselves tanked up at the 7-11 around the corner, and then, fortified with liquid bravery, set out to do their malevolent work for the evening. As for stealing anything, lets see.
There were 8 cars X 4 tires = 32 tires
There were 4 windows broken
The time it took to repair the cars, lets say 30-40 man hours.
The police time to take 8 meaningless reports.
The right of every citizen who uses the Islip train station to feel reasonably sure that their property will be safe.
Yeah - I'd say they stole something from the entire community.
Your accounting of the losses sounds suspiciously like a Master Card commercial, save for the actual dollar amounts and the obligatory "priceless" at the end...
That is my biggest fear when I go to work: the condition of my car when I return. Our odd hours make a car a necessity for at least part of the way. I hope Prenaghast doesn't give you a buck passing answer, but I would truly expect one out of them. I'm positive that report LIRR took from you was simply filed away with all the other incidents that day with no follow up either there or at other stations in the area. I also expect the town and LIRR point fingers at each other as to who is responsible for parking lot security. I doubt that the various towns on Long Island get a good "bang for the buck" when it comes to maintance & security. Finally, I'd worry about buying a tire for $11.95! On those cheap tires, be aware of the sidewalls: if you hit a curb when parking and something is sharp there, you will slash your tire. It recently happened to me near 111 St. & Jamaica Ave. And my tire cost $50.00! Some old houses with lawns near the curb have small sharp rocks seperating the lawn form the curb. One was jutting out into the street slightly and I parked too close to the curb, and this thing cut my tire like a razor. When I came off the train from work around 1:30 AM, I was greeted with a ruined tire. That AAA membership sometimes comes in mighty handy!
I have very small tires. 14 inches on a Toyota Trecel. I hit the curb all the time but thanks to the wheel covers that jut out I never had a flat. I get abused a lot but their pretty durable. BTW I think Goodyears are pretty good.
I don't know of any public sector organization that values its customers. For Democrats, the purpose of a government agency is to provide low-stress employment for the politically connected. To Republicans, anyone who actually requires public services is too poor to be a worthwhile human being. My union has a socialist perspective -- worker soverienty. In the marketplace, the consumer is king, because no one is forced to part with their money.
My car uses 145-80R12 tires. They are a joke but the 30,000 mile tires Sears sells in that size are $11.95 while the most expensive are 4 for $99. Kinda reminds me of the VW Beetles of the 60s. Everyone had spare engines in their back yard because it was cheaper to replace than repair. BTW: Anyone know of a 1970 Gremlin for sale?
No - especially since, IIRC, the first model year was 1971 (the Hornet appeared in 1970).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Just as an aside. The police STILL have not identified the body of the woman my wife and I found floating in Willow lake. I think identifying the scum who murdered her is out of the realm of possibility. IT'S SICK OUT THERE AND GETTING SICKER.
Steve -- Sorry to hear about your incident. I'm sure that even though you got some inexpensive tires for your car, the last thing you were looking forward to on your way home was a bunch of aggravation like that.
Just one question, though. What about the attidude of the LIRR surprised you?
I'm surprised that you even found someone at the LIRR to take your report, or at least pretend to write down the details.
LIRR gets paid to maintain the station, but you need to check whose lot it is. I suspect it belongs to Islip town, in which case its the responsibility of Suffolk Co. police, and lots of luck--they don't have the resources to watch each train station lot.
Same way LIRR will not patrol the huge lot at Deer Park--it's a county lot. They do secure the lots at Ronk, it's theirs.
Islip may have to do what Babylon and others do--if Islip isn't an Inc. village, plump to get a security patrol.
Sorry about your car, though--what a pain in the b*tt.
Speaking of parking lots, the Sea Cliff and Glen street ones were liitle more than dirt and ballast pits, for quite a number of years. The City of Glen Cove, finnally fed up, put up signs at each one, that stated, in GIANT lettering "This parking lot owned by the Long Island RailRoad", with a somewhat smaller note that Glen Cove wasn't reasponsible for it. To make things more fun - the one side of Glen Street the city DID own, got a nice, soomth, paved lot, with a sign "This parking lot owned by the City of Glen Cove" The two LIRR lots were paved shortly (3 years) after that....
Up near where my inlaws live, there is a county road that runs into another in a T. Just before the T was a sign that said "County Maintenance Ends" with a giant pothole -- the responsibility of the town or state I guess -- on the other side.
The "non-county" 20 feet of the road has since been repaved.
That is consistant with some information that I got when I shared the incident with a co-worker, who grew up on LI and still visits his family in Farmingdale. He is an avid mass transit advocate, and has used the LIRR and subways for years and still follows them with interest.
This is his opinion:
QUOTE
This is interesting, but I also think that there might be
some misunderstanding of the process. I believe that the jurisdiction
would be the same in Suffolk County (Town of Islip) as in Nassau County
(Town of Oyster Bay).
The LIRR Police have jurisdiction on the trains, in their
facilities, yards, etc. They would have jurisdiction LIRR stations and
the platforms. However, the parking lots are owned and maintained by
the townships or villages and not the LIRR. Any problem, such as the
vandalism, would be dealt with by the county police or village
(depending upon who patrols that area). I believe that the report was
taken on the phone for info purposes only (statistics) and even if a
cop would have been sent they could do nothing and the county police
would have to deal with the formal report.
The lots are built and maintained with township or village
property taxes. In some instances there was a special levy, like the
escalator/elevator districts (i.e. Hicksville, Massepequa, Floral Park,
etc.). The LIRR does not fund the lots. There are also sometimes
permits that are bought for a fee from the village or township on an
annual basis, with meters for shorter term use.
I'm not trying to defend the LIRR, but frankly there is a lot
of bureauracy in the NYC area and not everyone understands everyone's
role. Even in MSP, the Metro Transit Police have similar jurisdiction
issues and they do arise in the transit centers, quite often.
END QUOTE
Some moron broke the windows on my vehicle a few years back. What an invasion of privacy that was! Plus, the time needed to get the windows fixed. It was a little cold that January, driving without any glass!
Smashing in windows seems a common thing. It happened to me on my block a few months ago. There was ice around, and someone took a chunk and slammed it through. Two hundred dollars and an afternoon. We called the police, just to make sure they took a report so Rudy couldn't say that the crime didn't happen. But vandalism is not covered in the uniform crime reports. Maybe it should be.
Thank you for the information and I must admit, it seems to make sense in a bureaucratic sort of way. I will find out for sure on Monday AM when I go to Islip Town Hall.
I can understand the feeling. A few years ago, my car was broken into while parked at the Waterbury station on Metro North. You are right that the police don't really care. They take reports, for insurance purposes, but it's a safe bet that patrols of the commuter lots won't be increased (it would detract from their donut breaks).
$11.99???
What kind of tires and what kind of car do you have?? Does Sears have bike tires??? I just bought a tire for a Harley ($120 for the tire and $140 labor plus tax!!!)
Man, 140 for the labor? I'm guessing the guy did the wheel bearings too - BTW - I talked to the guy at Rolling Thunder (hempstead, not HD of Hempstead). A spoke job on my wide glide (check / tighten) is like 75 bucks. Man, I can't wait to dump those wheels for custom ones (I feel squimish with them (tubed tires), but so far I've not had problems).
But yes, motorcycle tires are somewhat expensive (but well worth the expense!)
It WAS at Rolling Thunder!!! I did have the bearings done. I also had it trailered there because of a huge bubble on the tire. (I must have rode it several times with the bubble from East Meadow to the 81Pct on Ralph & Gates on the J. Robinson Pkway but what you don't know don't hurt you!!!)
Well, if you had the bearings done - then yes, that seems about right. - if you read the shop manual - when you do the bearijngs, you have to set the freeplay, which involves assebling and disassembling the wheel a few times. Add the time to mount the tire (heh), and oh yes, if it's the rear, align it, adjust the belt, etc.
It's pricey - but better than riding on a time bomb...
"adjust the belt, etc."
Adjust the belt, huh? My HO gauge Athern Hustler was the last thing I owned that had a rubberband drive.
Me thinks we better cut this motorcycle thread though.
The rear tire for my Shadow was $120 + $40 to install it. Have all the tools to do it myself but not the time. Now why would you need tires for a Harley? As we say:
RIDE A HARLEY - RIDE THE BEST,
RIDE A MILE & WALK THE REST.
Just kidding but seriously, if there are enough bikers (no mopeds)here on Subtalk perhaps a bike ride to somewhere for a rail exploration may be in order. Anyone interested?
The Blue Knights actually had a run where they chartered a private subway car, everyone parked their bikes in a train yard in Washington Hts and took the private train to Canal Street where they ate in Little Italy and then took the private train back. This was about 5 years ago, I couldn't go because its PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to get a weekend day off in the NYPD!!!
The SARGE
[ if there are enough bikers (no mopeds)here
on Subtalk perhaps a bike ride to somewhere for a rail exploration may
be in order. Anyone interested? ]
I would be, but my bike is currently inoperative. One of these days, I'll (1) find the key, (2) get a new battery and charge it, (3) clean out the carbs -- at least one float valve is stuck open. Of course, getting home at 9:30, and then spending what free weekend time I have playing with trains hasn't given me the chance to to those things.. But it sounds like fun..
Steve, I wish you good luck in your effort to make someone at LIRR or town of Islip or Suffolk police to be accountable.
I would assume that the Suffolk Police has routes that they patrol (my TOWN cops do it). It would be interesting to know if since this incident are they increasing the frequency of the patrols in an effort to catch these kids, or anticiapte the next site based on proximity to local bars ?
Mr t__:^)
(Ie. break in's at commuter lots) The police can't be everywhere, but this sounds like an incident that went on for a long time. Perhaps "Big Brother" could solve the problem -- cameras scanning the lots, with a call in for a cruiser visit if anything seems amiss.
Hi all. I have ALOT of NYC subway stuff (rollsigns,number plates,whistles,station signs,hat badges etc, If you are intrested in any of this stuff E-mail me.
The CTA just recently posted this following announcement about station improvements on it's web site (www.yourcta.com)
I think that the stations receiving this work are all in fairly good shape except for Bryn Mawr. The CTA does have other stations that are falling down, but they proabaly plan to just completely re-build these stations in the future.
Anyway, what do ya think?:
CTA BOARD APPROVES STATION IMPROVEMENT CONTRACT
------------------------------------------------------------------------
08/09/99
The Chicago Transit Board, at its monthly meeting, approved a contract
that will bring a series of improvements to 21 CTA rail stations mainly along the Red Line and the O'Hare Branch of the Blue Line.
These improvements will extend the useful life of the existing
facilities, make them more attractive to customers and more convenient
for people with disabilities. Some of these changes will be very visible to rail customers, while others will be behind-the-scenes improvements.
"Consistent reinvestment is needed to keep our system attractive and
inviting to our daily customers, and to encourage potential riders to
use our transit system," said CTA Board Chairman Valerie B. Jarrett.
"These improvements will reinforce other successful initiatives we have taken to meet customer needs and keep the momentum of our ridership increase going."
Among the most significant improvements to be made as part of this
contract are upgrades to make 11 rail stations compliant with the
Americans With Disabilities Act. (ADA).
This station improvement package will allow for major ADA improvements
such as installation of elevators or wheelchair-accessible ramps at six stations. Elevators will be installed on the Red Line stations at
Sox/35th Street and 95th Street and on the Blue Line O'Hare Branch
stations at Jefferson Park and at Logan Square. Wheelchair-accessible
ramps will be constructed at the Blue Line Forest Park Branch stations
at UIC/Halsted and at Kedzie-Homan.
Two stations on the Red Line (Loyola and 79th Street), two stations on
the Blue Line (O'Hare and Forest Park), and the Brown Line station at
the Merchandise Mart will also receive improvements to make these
stations ADA-compliant. Among the improvements to be made are: curb cuts at sidewalks, tactile signs for the visually-impaired, new directional and informational signs, textured flooring atop stairs, reconfiguring bus islands to accommodate wheelchairs and installing portable ramps for wheelchair access between platforms and trains.
All 21 rail stations will be furnished with brighter lighting and
upgraded communications equipment in the form of new audio-visual public address systems that will use text messages to alert customers about train arrivals, delays, special events and other pertinent travel information. In addition, telephone lines at the stations will be given higher capacity and reliability. Other improvements will be made according to the needs of each station.
The stations slated to receive some improvements as part of this project include the 95th/Dan Ryan, 87th, 79th, 69th, 63rd, Garfield, 47th, Sox/35th, Cermak-Chinatown, Loyola and Bryn Mawr stations on the Red Line; the Blue Line stations at O'Hare, Jefferson Park, Montrose, Irving Park, Addison, Logan Square on the O'Hare Branch, and Forest Park, Kedzie-Homan and UIC/Halsted on the Forest Park Branch; and the
Merchandise Mart station on the Brown Line.
Among the upgrades that customers will notice will be the installation
of infrared heaters on platforms and in fare equipment areas; the repair of older floors and the construction of new glazed brick walls for easier maintenance.
This project was competitively bid and the Walsh Construction Company of Chicago was the lowest responsive and responsible bidder. They will
carry out the $60.4 million station improvement project with 30% DBE
participation of minority and female contractors and suppliers. More
than half the project budget, $42.5 million, will be allocated for the
ADA improvements to the CTA stations.
By packaging this station improvement project into one bid, the CTA will be able to reduce contract management costs while maintaining a
consistent level of quality in workmanship and materials throughout the length of the contract. The CTA also benefits from the economies of scale similar to a volume discount.
Construction work is expected to begin within 60 days from a final
contract and should be completed within 14 months. Upon completion of
this station improvement project, 95% of the CTA stations designated to be made fully ADA-compliant will have been completed.
"Capital investments directly affect the quality of service we offer,
and now that we have the funding to upgrade our facilities, we can move ahead with this effort," said CTA President Frank Kruesi. "It takes commitment by our employees to provide on-time, clean, safe and friendly service, and together with these improvements, we'll be better able to meet service demands in the years ahead."
###
Feedback
Copyright Jan 1999 Chicago Transit Authority
BJ
This sounds simply wonderful. The CTA must be just rolling in money to fund all these improvements.
Now, why doesn't the CTA spend a little money to improve its service, which has been notably in decline these past few years. Improve service frequency, restore "A" and "B" express service, and restore owl service where it has been discontinued. What's the point of making the facility ADA-compliant if there isn't good service?
Unfortunetly, I think the CTA has the idea that they will renovate every station and bus stop before they would even think of bringing back A & B Express Service.
Night-owl service is rarely used and I agree with the decision to cut back on almost all of it. It still exsists where it is needed like service no less then every 15 minutes on the Red Line and every half-hour on the Blue Line between Forest Park and Ohare between 1 and 4 am.
I do think that they however will adapt to customers needs. They have made a complete 180 degree turn around from how they used to be and acually listen to customers concerns now.
If and when the two renovation projects of the Douglas and Ravenswood Lines do get completed ( we will find out from the feds sometime in September) then I think they will focus more on new services like more Express trains.
Atleast we still have the Purple Line Evanston Express which operates during weekday rush hours only 5.75 miles non-stop between Howard and Belmont Streets/Stations.
BJ
[I do think that they however will adapt to customers needs. They have made a complete 180 degree turn around from how they used to be and acually listen to customers concerns now.]
What CTA are you riding?
I ride the CTA bus and 'L' seven days a week. In the three years I've lived here in the city I've seen service decline at a rapid pace.
The Red Line, which up until five years ago used to see trains running on a headway frequent enough to permit A-B skip-stop now runs at five minute intervals during the PM rush hour. I'm saying five-minute intervals when the trains are RUNNING ON TIME!
The buses are just as bad. Part of my communte is to take the #77 east to Sheridan Rd in the evening from Belmont/Sheffield station. The headway at 6PM is every 15 minutes - excuse me, I consider 6 PM still the evening rush. Most of the time the buses show up in twos and threes. What good are three buses when only the first one is doing the work?
So, what do I do, I take the #156 in the morning to my Wacker Drive office. I take the 'L' back home in the evening. Most of the time I walk from the 'L' to my home, with no #77 bus in sight.
Most recently there has been a story circulating that the General Manager issued a bulletin to the bus garage manangers that there would be NO OVERTIME for bus drivers. What happened that Friday, the traditional day for most absenteeism? Some people waited up to an hour for buses that were over crowded.
Is this anyway to run a system to encourage ridership?
And I'm not buying the increasing numbers of riders. I don't think the CTA EVER had an accurate count on the number of riders it handles.
All I can say, if you think this is good service, you've sold youself way short! The service the CTA offers is better than nothing, but far from good.
Jim K.
Chicago
While they're at it, they should empty out one of their Swiss bank accounts and bring back real McCoy conductors on the Red and Blue lines, or at least the Red line.
I do agree with you about the problems with busses being clumped together and not proper spacing. What I'm saying is that the CTA atleast addressed the issue. They are currently experimenting with satellite technology to keep buses properly spaced.
They HAVE listened to customer concerns, but implementing a system like this will proabaly take another year and cost lots of money which they loose more and more of every year.
As far as the Red Line goes, the trains run every 3 to 5 minutes if on time during rush hours. That is pretty good compared to any other CTA Line or Rapid Transit Line in general.
What is the most frequent time for the NYC Subway???
With electronic fare collection and return of regular ridership to the Green Line, how can you question ridership increases?
I'm by no means saying that the CTA is perfect, but they have come a long way and still have a long way to go.
If they Brown and Douglas Line improvements do go through, I can only see good things in the future. These are the two most expensive projects that will bring less crowded Brown Line trains and 55-MPH back to the Douglas Line.
After that, they will have more money to worry about bus spacing more agressively and new Express train service.
BJ
DUring the peak of the peak, several NYCT subway lines are scheduled to run every 2 to 3 minutes...specifically the 6 and 7 lines. Most lines run 4 to 6 minute headways during the rush and shoulder periods.
CTA and NYCT compare well with each other as far as (scheduled) service frequency goes.
BJ - Do you ride the CTA on a regular basis? If you are not a regular rider, then you DO NOT know what goes on almost daily. The CTA is my car in Chicago and I deal with it 7 days a week. I choose not to have a car as I've always tried to be a user of public transit.
Unless you're trying to get from point A to point B on a daily basis you can not speak with authority on CTA's service. Look at the schedule for the northbound Red Line in the PM rush. There is NO 3 minute service intervals listed that I remember. Also, that is "scheduled" service, not actual. I'd suggest using the line on five consecuative days and let me know what the "service" is like.
As for the multi-million dollar system to keep buses apart. It is my sincere hope this system works as the CTA can't afford to waste any of its precious resources. My worry about the new system is that the same drivers and supervisors will be using it. Today's woes could be remedied by just a little ingenuity on the part of the drivers and supervisors now.
As for the topic of your original posting. The CTA has launched large station rebuilding programs before. Most of those elaborate plans never happened.
Oh, there are some bright spots, the new re-habbed 2600 cars are phasing into service. I am hoping they perform as well a year from now as they are performing right now. I, as one who spends a great deal of money using the CTA, only wishes that the organization will improve. Their recent toutings that they are customer oriented and are embarking on ambitious rebuilding are welcome; however, action speaks way louder than words to this rider.
Jim:
No, unfortunetly I don't have the oppertunity to ride the CTA everyday. I live in Westmont ( just East of Downers Grove and Naperville) and am a full time High School Student at Westmont High School.
During the summer months I do go to Chicago quite frequently because I have relatives in that live in Cicero and friends that live in the city.
Being from the Suburbs where Metra trains run every hour or two except for their excellent rush hour schedules, I think the CTA service is great.
I do frequent the Red and Brown Lines and think that the service on each is great. Many people don't like to stand, but I don't mind. I do enjoy the Red Line, but will take the Brown Line on days when it is very hot. The ride is longer to Belmont, but the A/C is much better.
I have to admit, the A/C on the Red Line really sucks. I also frequently go to Cubs games one week-ends. We drive to Forest Park and take the train from there. Despite the same equipment, the Blue Line has good to excellent A/C and the Red Line poor to none.
I haven't had a chance to ride in one of the renovated cars, does the A/C acually work??? Can you acually hear yourself think in the subway??? I rode in what I though was one, but came to find out it was only a car that had recently gone in for work and had the paint stripped off.
This Tuesday, Aug 17, I'm taking a trip from the Westmont BNSF station to Evanston and Skokie. Riding the BNSF to Union Station, going over to Northwestern Station, and ridding to Davis Street/Evanston.
Then eating at the Davis Street Fish Market ( Best Fish in Chicago Area and cheap). It is about 4 blocks east of the Davis Street Purple Line & Metra Stations.
Then back to the Purple Line, S-Bound to Howard. Skokie Swift to Skokie. Back to Howard, Purple Line Express to Quincy/Wells, 3 blocks West back to Union Station and the BNSF back to Westmont.
BJ
PS: I have come to find with Off-Peak Metra and CTA service, add about 10 minutes to the travel time and if you get there any sooner, be happpy your early!
Thank you Steve for your support.
A visitor to my LIRR History website recently informed me about the Library of Congress Railroad Maps website, which contains many railroad maps from the 1800's. It is located at http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/gmdhtml/rrhtml/rrhome.html
If you use their seach engine with keywords "Long Island", you will find several very interesting maps of the LIRR from 1873-1894.
I've noticed along the E,F,G,R line in Queens that every station has mostly black billboards!!!! WHY? Doesn't the MTA lose $$$ on those billboards from potential advertisers? It also makes the platforms very depressing and unattracive.
Personally, I don't favor that line at ALL!!!!!!
There's probably no advertising revenue lost; as soon as an ad goes up it's defaced or destroyed by local youth so I'd guess most of the advertisers won't want an ad there anyway. The panels in these areas are being removed during some station renovations. It's not just Queens-- The A/C stations in Brooklyn and the #6 subway stations in the south Bronx are the same.
It also makes the platforms very depressing and unattractive.
Really? A lack of advertising makes the stations unattractive?
--Mark
On the IND it does, because many of those stations were designed with `built-in' ad locations, where the tile is replaced by a blank spot. Going through one of those stations that has no ads is like going through a ghost town.
Those stations on that Queens line always seem deserted. Those stations are not well lit. Very gloomy and depressing. Ads liven up the station and many are informative(eg. movie ads). So post some ads on thse EFGR stations!!!
If those Queens IND stations seem so deserted, then where-o-where do all those riders come from? Could it be that we have so much service people don't have to wait long for a train?
Some of the Fulton IND stations have had their advertising panels replaced by tile with complementary color accents (i.e. Nostrand Avenue). Some are painted over or tiled over white (i.e. Ralph Avenue).
Wayne
At Cortelyou and Beverley Road stations on the Brighton line, the areas formerly occupied by advertisements now have a nice pattern of tiles in them.
--Mark
A few months ago, Amtrak announced that it would launch it's new Acela program (makes ticketing and traveling easier), which of course includes the high-speed rail between Washington D.C. and Boston. I'm hoping this project launches on time in October....it would be great to ride the new trains home from college on Columbus Day weekend! -Nick
Well, don't hold your breath (or more accurately, don't hold it if you can't hold it very long)
While the Acela high speed trains *may* come online this year (it looks good), be aware of the following, rumors, etc:
1) Popular rumor is the train are having stability problems at high speed. CNN.com mentioned this in an article the other day. Related to "truck hunting". IMHO, the lack of articulation is also a big mistake, though I don't know if that exagerates or reduced such problems.
2) The trains are too wide. As a result, they'll be tilting less
3) Metro-North controls the New Haven line. Doubtfull they'll allow higher speeds than current, esp given the multitudes of (active) drawbridges.
4) They won't go 150 out of ther box above New Haven - they'll probbly approach that speed carefully (good thing(tm))
5) They won't go 150 below NYC - the catenary needs to be replaced to allow faster speeds (should have been done years ago)
6) The catenary to Boston is almost done!
7) The promised 3 hour trip to Boston is still a dream.
Yeah, I'd love to get on these things too - or at least see the HHP-8s in action (and I HOPE they are quieter than the AEM-7 - they sure are uglier. Actually, I'm starting to like the AEM-7s, though GG-1s they are not)
Anyone know when the end of diesel operations on the New Haven / Boston run is going to be? I'd assume they'll want to switch it over as fast as possible, as it gets rid of engine switches at New Haven, thhough they'll probbly still split the train into Springfield / Boston sections there. Or maybe turn the Hartford Springfield run into a shuttle with a few DMUs, like it was, and should be.
DMU - Diesel Multiple Unit?
I think I've seen these. They look like regular Amtrak passenger cars, but they have a small cab at one end, with yellow diagonal stripes and a big, black rubber bumper on that end. Is that what those are - DMUs? Or are they electric? I can't recall if the ones I've seen had catenary pickup - I think one I saw did, but I could easily have been mistaken. Just curious
No no no!! :)
Those things are former Metroliner cars!!!
The origonal Metroliner was an electric MU train. And a big failure too.
They took some of the cars and rebuilt them into cab cars for the Vermonter, etc. Some supposedly still retain the pans - I've also heard that they were used as trailers, with the pans for HEP, on some clocker service in PA. The rebuild killed all the good looks of the Metroliners. Ok, so they were always ugly. BTW those cars have outboard bearing trucks. The difference in ride quality is amazing. Much MUCH better than the Amfleet stuff...
I'm talking about thew RDC, or SPV2000. Amtrak WAS testing a new one, the Flexliner. Don't know what happened to it.
Wow - I was way off track on that one. Just thought I'd take a stab at it, oh well... :)
Thanks for the info and the history - I had always wondered what those were. Interesting stuff. I've ridden in one from Philly to Washington before, but had no idea what the story was with it - why it had a cab and pan.
So was I at least right that DMU is Diesel MU? Where could I find info about Amtrak's units?
Thanks in advance!
The metroliner *was* a pretty interesting car. Mechanicaly, it's supposedly a SilverLiner on steroids - I don't know. That would surprise me - the SilverLiner has turned out to be at least a fairly sucessful design (the origionals are still in use by Septa, though I don't know if their vacuum tube control systems are still there) I've noticed a few variations:
Diamond pantograph, flat roof
Bent arm pan, flat roof
Diamond pan, bump on the roof, like the M-2, for brake resistances
Bent arm, with roof bump.
Prr paint, Penn Central paint, Amtrak paint (a few variations)
I believe they were rebuilt at one time, and they were in service to at least 1987 in PA. I'm guessing their NEC career ended in '83 with Metro-North going to 60hz power.
They were never a reliable car. Though they did hit 160+ in a publicity run, they never got much above 120 in service. Supposedly, each one left with a technician on board, ready to fix it when it broke down. One train split in two over a coupler failure. They were later limited to 120 due to "motor problems". Yet, amazingly, despite the bad PR the train got - a 15 year decline in traffic on the NEC was reversed. The cars were well liked by the public (when they ran), and the general attitude was, at first, positive.
Even more amazing, nobody ever noticed this!!! After the metroliner went away, trains once again became slow, loco hauled, and people started wondering why rail ridership was declining.
It's sad too, because, had Amtrak MADE the idea work, and quickly EXPANDED the system, and most importantly, kept upward pressure on the speed of the trains - we could very well have a rail system in the northeast that could compare to the French with their TGV. Remember, this thing beat the French by a few years - and went almost as fast.
What made the Metroliner program end if it was so successful?
Though it was popular - the cars were simply a nightmare. They didn't work, they never worked. It's likely that Amtrak COULDN'T get them to work. Faced with replaceing the propulsion packages on 80 cars, or buying a few locomotives and conventional cars, the beancounters won, and we got the amazing E-60 (which shared it's excelt tracking with the P-30) and the somewhat less disasterous AEM-7. If the Metroliners actually ran reliably, things would probbly have been much different.
Oh, OK. How long did the Metroliners run? Is the AEM-7 considered successful?
Did someone say the metroliners are in service as cab-cars?
They ran from about 1967ish to about 1990ish, but never reliably!
The AEM-7 I guess could be considered sucessful, I've genrally had good luck with trains pulled by them. It was a knockoff of an existing Sweedish design (RC-3 I think). It's become the F-40 of electric traction in the US - Marc, Septa, NJT use it, along with Amtrak.
Anyone know if the Shoreline East is going to get a few, now that New Haven -> Boston is (almost) wired?
Amtrak WAS testing a new one, the Flexliner. Don't know what happened to it.
It was in the U.S. only on a demonstration run. The intent was to drum up support for passenger rail in general, and if any states wanted a new service using the Flexliner, they could help fund it. No one came up with any money, so back it went.
I don't think Amtrak has any DMU's around at this point, does it?
Was the "FlexLiner" Siemen's "RegioSprinter" under a different moniker?
--Mark
Nope. It was, I believe, a dutch train, built for Israeli State Railways, that was capable of coupling and uncoupling at track speed. Had a HUGE rubber inflateable bumper on the end. I believe it was a DMU type vehicle. They tested it between Las Vegas and LA.
-Hank
Yes, it DID have that pathetic huge inflatable front end - not to mention the swing away cab. I'm guessing the reason why it wasn't an RDC style car had more to do with it's euro origin than anything else - I've noticed that european MUs never seemed to have that cab / vestibule thing that early american MUs had (insert MP-54 related text here :)
The word here in Boston is that the first Acela train will make a run in late October or early November. Additional trainsets will appear slowly, and be phased in through 2000. So service from late 1999 into 2000 will be a mix of high-speed and conventional trains during that period.
I hope the AMTRAK schedulers figure out how to handle that. It would be like having an unmodified, out-of-the-box R-32 following a modified R-68 Hippo down Central Park West!
On the NY railfan forum there was a very long thread concerning the extremely loud horns on the bi-level locomtives. (The url for the thread is: http://www.railroad.net/forums/load/nyrail/msg0715212411674.html?23904 ) The first post was from a Thomas Prendergast (no doubt an imposter) The issue is that the locomotive's horns are run by computer and are 1 sound level whether the train is going slow or fast or whether its a short or long whistle. If you get off a train and walk to the crossing at the end of the platform the train might be going 5MPH with a short sound but the sound is extremely loud and painful to the ears, possibly damaging. When the train is being pushed and the engineer is in the head passenger coach it is not as loud. Alot of posters stated it was needed, the louder the better for safety. It definitely made for good debate.
Any thoughts by Subtalkers???
Yeah, the FRA's solution to people driving around grade crossings is to make the whistles louder (95db, A weighted). After all, we ALL *KNOW* that a loud horn will remove any car stuck on a grade crossing (note the sacrasm). BTW, they are now mandated to blow at every crossing. The horn is solinoid controlled - on or off. Not so for the cab cars.
The problem is, louder horns don't stop people from driving around grade crossings, and, I agree, that at the level the gov mandates, it's too damm loud. It's painful to be next to a train when they blow the horn. Will it reduce grade crossing accidents? No. But it's like ditch lights - makes whatever bearuocrat at the FRA happy. Do ditch lights and loud horns reduced grade crossing accidents? I don't think so. I'd love to see the argument they do.
I'd be willing to bet that ditch lights, like the Mars lights of old, do make the train more visible - probably more so than the Mars lights did - and have reduced, however slightly, the number of grade crossing incidents. A single light at night doesn't provide the viewer with a reference point for depth of field, hence distance judgment may be off, whereas the moving ditch lights, in a triangle with the headlight, do enable a person to judge distance pretty well. This is also more important the older you get and your eyes lose the ability to react as quickly to changes in light levels.
The horns are another story. The high volume may help under certain circumstances, but there are probably just as many cases where it hurts.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Towns in Massachusetts are allowed "community override" to prohibit whistle-blowing at grade crossings. Medford (home of Tufts University just outside of Boston) is one such town. My commuter line's first stop is West Medford, where there are two crossings in succession and the platforms are low-level, so people cross everywhere). No whistles; only bells and flashing headlights. After a series of accidents, the town hired flagmen to stand on the crossing and keep watch. He has an AMTRAK radio so he can call a train if a vehicle is stuck on the crossing.
A few months ago, a car got stuck. The flagman called, but it was too late. BAM.
The biggest problem, of course, is the idiots who think the crossing gates don't apply to them. This morning's Asbury Park Presscarries a story about a deadheading Bay Head train hitting a car that drove around the gates and got stuck. Fortunately, the two females got out before the train hit; the driver was charged with disregarding a signal. Her '98 Accord was a total loss; the train suffered a few scratches in the paint. Based on the car driver's comments, as reported in the paper, guess who's going to get sued?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
IMHO, the RR should sue the car owners (or their immediate family - maybe that's cruel, but 99% of the time, it's not the RR's fault) for dammages. Figure: reapairs to th locomotive/ head car, track, signals, + delays, and you've got a few hundred thousand lost. Maybe if people realized they'd be financially liable if they get hit, they wouldn't do it?
"Maybe if people realized they'd be financially liable if they get hit, they wouldn't do it?"
The problem is that most if not all people who run crossing gates and/or disobey crossing signals don't think they will be hit by the train in the first place! If the prospect of death -- and a gruesome death at that -- doesn't scare them, nothing will. Increasing the penalty for running a signaled or gated railway crossing won't significantly decrease such accidents (though it's still a good idea) because the existing maximum "penalty" is death. Making it clear(er) to the public how likely a gate-runner is to be struck by a train would be more effective.
By the way, suits against railways for crossing accidents are fairly rare, since most attorneys won't accept them in the first place knowing they have almost no chance of winning. But if someone does sue, and they were disobeying a gate or signal at the time, I definitely agree that the railway should countersue the driver of the car for negligence.
[ town hired flagmen to stand on the crossing and keep watch. He has an
AMTRAK radio so he can call a train if a vehicle is stuck on the
crossing.
A few months ago, a car got stuck. The flagman called, but it was too
late. BAM. ]
Of course, although this flagman could have helped in this situation if he'd radioed earlier, but whistles surely wouldn't repair the car and move it off the tracks..
[ The horn is solinoid controlled - on or off. Not so for the
cab cars. ]
I've seen them operate the cab cars, and the whistle seemed to be solenoid controlled there also. The cab cars' horns do seem to have a longer "attack" time, where the volume ramps up over about a second or so -- maybe the solenoid has a lower flow rate, or is farther from the horn, etc., causing a small delay in building up pressure behind the whistle.
If they don't do something about this, though, they're going to have a lot of complaints on their hands. FRA rules don't mandate solenoid controlled whistles, and specifically do give the enginner the obligation to vary whistle length according to train speed. When leaving a station at less than 5MPH, four extremely short "toots" would satisfy the law.
Already dead for sure:
R-44 #5282, R-33 #8884, R-62 #1437,#1440
Less than 10 percent:
R-42 #4664, R-62A #1909, R-46 #5486,#5487,#5488,#5489, R-62 #1435,#1436,#1439, R-33 #8885
In progress of being repaired:
R-40M #4461 (new number supposedly R-40 #4260), R-68 #2579
Sorry, I am now listless....anymore to add to this list?
Nick C
8885 can actually come back to service, as she wasn't on the receiving end of a brutal collision with a wall. That was the fate that befell 8884. 8885 is now in work service in Maintenance of Way Colors. She is a gel applicator, that is to apply a lubricant to the rails so car wheels won't go slipping and sliding during the colder months of the year. The Dyre and Brighton Lines come to mind since the line see many trees along the right of way. Find 8885 a mate and the car can come back into service if needed. R30 8429 is also a designated gel applicator car.
-Stef
Yesh, here's another pair:
Slant R40 #4427 and #4428 lie mangled in Coney Island Yard, their noses utterly bent out of shape as the result of a January 8, 1996 collision at Bushwick-Aberdeen, when one slid down the slippery slope on the ice during the Blizzard and plowed pell-mell into the other - OUCH!!! Slants no more...
#4664 is probably 100% a goner, 17 feet of telescoping damage can do that to you. His frame is bent like a wishbone.
ALSO:
* R32 #3620 is o.o.s. due to a frame problem at C.I. Yard.
* Slant R40 #4259 sits forlorn in C.I. Yard, waiting for her new nose and bonnet.
* R32 Odd Couple #3904-3559 are waiting for the green lite to return to service after their run-in with a fallen vent-shaft grating in the 53rd St. tunnel (and subsequent third rail fire). They were partly cannibalized but I hear the missing parts have been replaced.
* R32GE #3934-3935 have been picked clean by the Parts Vultures at 207th Street.
* A similar fate to 3934-3935 has befallen R131 (R110B) #3007, #3008 and #3009.
* R44 Trailer #5319 (ex.#295) has had a fire and her fate is uncertain.
* R44 Motor #5402 (ex.#244) is out of service, cause unknown.
I have heard (reliable source) that #5486-7-9-8 are awaiting parts and may return to service once delivered and necessary repairs are done. They are still wearing their GOH trucks.
Wayne
Hey Wayne!
Was that a typo? Did you say R-44 (TRAILER) #5319 ex-295? Is the TA going back in time with using trailers? NAHH,can't be!!
Bill Newkirk
Yes, the odd-numbered cars of the R44 and R46 series are properly called trailers, since they have no cabs and therefore no locomotive power of their own.
Wayne
The "B" units were cab-less, but they had motors.
Yes, they do, but what I meant was they had no motive power, i.e. they are unable to move on their own due to their lack of cabs.
Wayne
[ Yes, they do, but what I meant was they had no motive power, i.e. they
are unable to move on their own due to their lack of cabs. ]
They do have motive power. They have a control group, motors, etc. The don't have a master controller, though.
I believe that the R44 anr 46 blind cars used to have hostler's controls, which allowed for slow shop moves, etc, but those were removed during GOH.
I'm not sure if the word trailer is or is not correct in this case. I do know that cars with no motors and _with_ a master controller are called "control trailers" (i.e. Manhattan Elevated car "G"), so if trailer applied to cars without cabs and controls, "control trailer" would be a strange term indeed.
I think a that the term "blind" car is probably clearer, whether trailer is appropriate or not.
I don't think R44 or 46 "B" units could ever move as a single
unit, even with hostler panels...missing some vital component
like a compressor or battery charger....I'm sure the other
Steve K knows.
Wayne,
If the R-44 & R-46 "B" cars were true trailers,their trucks would be devoid of traction motors and carbody underneath would be devoid of propulsion equipment. Use of trailers in the NYCTA died in the early 60's with the retirement of the BMT 67' 4000 series trailers and the late 60's with the Bronx 3rd Avenue "el" Low-V trailers.
Bill Newkirk
OK, excuse my terminology - I shall refer to them as "blind motors" from here on (if I remember to stop calling them "trailers"), but my original post stands. Thanks for the info on the "B" units motors.
I think #6207 has the hostler controls, so that may be one "B" unit that can move on its own.
Wayne
6207 doesn't have the hostler.
OK, I'll amend my records. Thanks.
Wayne
Wayne,
If the R-44 & 46 cars were true trailers ,their trucks would be devoid of traction motors and propulsion equipment underneath carbody would also be non existant. The "B" cars are indeed "blind motors"
Bill Newkirk
ok guys dont scream im new to this board but have been lurking around at this site for a while. I take it the R110's are not running currently?? If they are WHEN???? im surrounded by subway train fanatics that would make ths poor old soul wait until one pulled into the station just to ride one. Judging from the convo i might want to pack some luggage for a long wait??
If they are still running i belive i saw one on the A line once upon a time... could you email me around about when they would pull into the East New York station?? Or even Jay street and borough Hall??
The B division train, the R-110B is all but retired. 3 of the 9 cars are stripped for parts. the remaining 6 can only be used in C service but rarely are.
The R-110A is currently being used to test some pre-production R-142 components. It is not running in revenue service...
I don't know why they are there, But the six remaining R110B's are in Coney Island Yard.
NOTE: The following is just a rumor
A TSS on the R line told me that the train will be going into service in the next few months on the B line.
Does anyone have any "inside" information?
During yesterdays run thru town (see my other posts..), I happened to be waiting at Main St for my 7 train back,when Guess What pulls in the center track to reverse? About halfway back a car was loaded with weights; also in the car was a VCR and a monitor. There was a camera (with light) mounted on one of the trucks. Any idea what kind of test might be going on anybody?? Also, what is in that box in the one corner of a non-control car? Seems like a waste of space to me...
The R110A????
-Stef
Well...yes.
In an earlier post, you said a reliable source told you 5282 is back? When the R44's were GOH'ed, there was an extra A car and B car. the orphans were 5478/79. Take this 4 some: 5402-03-05-04. 5404 and one of the odd cars were mated with 5478/79. The other odd car was a replacement for 5319. I think 5319's replacement and her odd mates are regularly ran on the OPTO Rockaway shuttle as a mixed marriage. Just maybe 5402 was repaired from salvagable parts from 5282's flat cars and renumbered? In my daily duties on the E, I'll keep an eye out for 5282 & her mates.
I Didn't Know That A R-68 Got Damaged. Anybody Know How?
Back in July (July 21? July 23?) there was an electrical short circuit beneath R68 #2579 which caused an explosion and small fire, which has put her out of service for the time being. Major electrical work is needed.
While being delivered, #2755 had a run-in with a flat car in CI yard and a gash was carved in her side. She was repaired and returned to service.
Wayne
I'd swear I saw 2579 in the past week or so as part of a 4-car set.
David
[Back in July (July 21? July 23?) there was an electrical short circuit beneath R68 #2579 which caused an explosion and small fire, which has put her out of service for the time being. Major electrical work is needed.]
And I'll bet that flat car is a reincarnated BMT standard...
Since alot of trolley fans post here- here's 2 Live webcams with trolley cars on it. You must keep on reloading the page to get the latest picture.
1. Zurich, Switzerland: Go to: http://cam1.cnlab-switch.ch then click on the box marked "central"
2. Warsaw, Poland- Go to: http://www.pap.com.pl/okno.html
Zurich, Switzerland (then click on the box marked "central")
Warsaw, Poland
Hey Gary,
How do you put a link on this forum. I tried the usual html of
Put A HREF="site name" in angle brackets then
type a link word(like "here") then /A HREF in angle
brackets.
This should appear.
I guess I made a mistake when I tried it the last
time. I thought I did it that way but it didn't
work. Here's another try!!! Visit my homepage at
The
SARGE Hey,this time it worked on the preview!!!
The code should look like this <A HREF="url">text for link</A>
Hey Gary,
How do you put a link on this forum. I
tried the usual html of a href="http:// etc. but
it didn't work!!!!
Hey Gary,
How do you put a link on this forum. I
tried the usual html of a href="http:// etc. but
it didn't work!!!!
Wed. I caught one of our Orion CNGs that took the 59th St bridge before returning me to College Point. It gave me the opportunity to catch up on some reading, i.e. Mass Transit Nov/Dec. In it was an article "Return of the Trolley". It talks about how New Orleans; Seattle; Memphis; Dallas; San Francisco are putting trolleys from the 20s, 30s & 40s back in revenue service. This has ment FINDING street rails that have been burried since the 50s & 60s. Most of these lines started out being a tourist thing to draw folks back downtown, but have become popular with commuters. Many of these cities are now extending these lines.
Now for a question to my Trolley Museum friends:
- Zoos & other wildlife preseveration groups have the stated goal of preventing species from extenuation and returning them to the wild when sufficent numbers & CONDITIONS are right.
- So, if New Haven, Bridgeport, Portsmouth, Garden City wanted to do the same as the cities mentioned above and needed some trollys to get started would the museums be interested in helping ?
- I think it could be a good thing, particulary for a museum with lots of cars, some of which spend a lot of time sitting in the barn. This could be a great way to introduce a whole new generation to the fun of riding trolleys, and offer the museum a way to restore a car that wasn't going to be able to worked on in the near future. It could also generate a lot more customers to the museum.
- The museum would probally want some strings attached to any sale/lease, i.e. the city would foot the bill on the restoration, but would sell/give it back if they changed their mind or upgraded to brand new LRV. The museum would have to tollerate certain UPGRADEs to the equipment, e.g. A/C, new state of the art electronics, but the city would agree to retain the outward appearance of the car and maybe the seating, etc.
Something to think about ?
Send a private e-mail for how to get a re-print of this article.
Mr t__:^)
Seashore has already helped a number of cities in different ways, notably New Orleans, San Francisco, Lowell, and Memphis. Sometimes it's help with restoration techniques; other times it's assistance in setting up a safety/operations program; while occasionally we've even had some of our volunteers employed to do construction work (for example erecting overhead for the heritage trolley line in Lowell, MA).
While Museums may not wish to part with accessioned cars, the expertise of its personnel can be a valuable asset to cities going back to the future with trolley lines!
The article does mention that they got help from museums, but doesn't mention SeaShore by name.
- New Orleans mentioned a group "Bring Our Streetcars Home". That city also wants to bring back the "Streetcar Named Desire" ... kool.
- Apparently the Gomaco Trolley Company builds brand new cars to vintage designs.
- San Fran., apparently a private/business group, Market Street Ry works with the city agency to run trolleys.
Mr t__:^)
They want to bring back "A Streetcar Named Desire" what about another one named Cemetery?
"Target date is 2001 for service on four miles of new line from the foot of Canal and a Riverfront connection to a new transit center at Cemeteries."
Isn't the Riverfront line being regauged from standard to 5' 2 1/2" to be in step with the St. Charles line?
And speaking of the Streetcar Named Desire, it had been parked next to the New Orleans mint, but when I was there in 1994, it was undergoing repairs.
Steve B asked:
[Isn't the Riverfront line being regauged from standard to 5' 2 1/2" to be in step with the St. Charles line?]
A substantial portion of the article is devoted to the New Orleans streetcars, and the two lines you mention, but I didn't see any mention of this.
Mr t__:^)
It certainly was reguaged, and now operates with some of RTA's new home built "Perley Thomas Lookalikes", which are "Ladies in Red" and are fully ADA compliant. All cars work out of Carrollton Station (N.O. ese for Car House), but the Riverfront cars cannot carry passengers on the pull-out/pull-in trips because of the Historic designation that St. Charles has.
Canal streetcar line is the current name usage for the cemeteries designation. It is scheduled to be back in operation in 2001. Riverfront line was regauged about 1 1/2 years go to connect with St Charles. In addition to the restored cemeteries line, a branch will go to one of the universities/colleges. The Canal line will not loop as is previous-pre 1964 times, but will run into the Riverfront line, and go towards the Mint terminal. The Desire is in the study stage of restoration. Remember, they went through "study hell" getting the Feds to approve vintage looking cars- trolley polls, no pantographs allowed, but they won their point. Desire will be reconstructed, but probably not the original line down Bourbon, it looks like it will skirt the French Quarter either on Rampart to Elyssian or as an extension off the Riverfront. Personally I like the Rampart route
At Seashore, our NOPSI car #966's roll sign has both Desire and Cemetery. We usually have the car signed up for the former, though the latter often appears on Halloween :-)
Thurston, try visiting http://www.streetcar.org/ to learn more about the Market St Railway--which is a 503c like unto most other established railfan groups. MSR has been very instrumental in the highly sucessful return of PCC's to Market Street service. within six months of opening the line had Tripled the ridership of the ETB which it replaced.
Thanks for the link, I'll try it. Mr t__:^)
The zoo comparison isn't very good. Trolleys are built by humans, constructing a PCC today would be the same as getting one from the 30s, although it could be better suited to modern needs. When an animal is extinct, more happens than just some people feeling sorry for it's loss and the loss of something convenient that can be rebuilt. When a living being is extinct, if it's loss doesn't directly affect human lives IRREVERSIBLY, it would do so indirectly. If a certain predator, call it Carnivorous Extinctus were to die, it's prey, Herbivorous Stillalivous would multiply and continue to eat many crops and the sheer population growth would be uncontrollable. The crops would become more rare, more expensive and this would cause severe problems. This is just one of the ways that extinction would harm us all. The loss of old trolleys does nothing of the sort.
The loss of old trolleys does nothing [to harm us all].
I'll have to disagree with that statement. The loss of old trolleys means the loss of a part of our heritage, a part of who we are. Urban, and even rural, civilization as we know it, was strongly affected by the development of the streetcar. What spawned the first suburbs? The trolley. What first enabled the person living in a small, rural town the opportunity to get to the neighboring town without making plans well ahead of time? The interurban (not the steam roads, which didn't have nearly as frequent schedules). These old cars are an integral part of the development of the social fabric of this country, and seeing them run again, especially if they are able to run again in their native environment, serves to remind us of our roots. They have personalities, they have life - the different sounds they make, the different way they look, how they run. As living history, they can continue to serve us as teachers of our heritage, so that the future may learn from the past.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If Gomaco sees fit to build vintage trolleys, well, more power to them! The materials to build these haven't vanished off the face of the earth - steel, glass, rubber, seat material, all in plentiful supply. If Gomaco took the blueprints for the 1948 PCC and rebuilt it nut by nut bolt by bolt using the same materials, it would essentially be the same as a 1948 PCC, except it would not be old, it would be new. Who is keeping the beautiful trolleys of New Orleans running?
They must be 60 or 70 years old, unless some of them are reproductions .
Maybe Gomaco could be persuaded to enter the rapid transit car business and build us a fleet of new R-10s (with A/C of course, and little bracket fans to blow the cool air around) :o)
Wayne
Some of the New Orleans units are repros, or semi-repros - like the Gomaco units they run on PCC power. A couple on the Riverfront line are ex-Melbourne, I believe. Most of the New Orleans units are well-refurbished Perley Thomas cars, however, upgraded to modern safety standards and some ADA compliant! They have also succeeded in buying back several original cars from museums.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not any more. The Riverfront Line, newly reguaged to 5'2.5" guage and now connected to the system has a small fleet of home built "Perley Thomas Lookalikes", painted in the Riverfront red scheme and fully ADA compliant. The Melbourne W3's were sold to Memphis and the original rescued Perley Thomas cars will be returned to the 5'2.5" gauge and restored to 1923 appearance for charters/fantrips.
8/14/99 1:24A
Anbody know the imformation on those rescued Perley Thomas cars?
I wonder about their source are there still others unaccounted for including the ones at Branford and Warehouse Point museums.
Bill Newkirk
Branfords' Perley Thomas car is undergoing restoration as we speak, it wont be going anywhere as far as I know. BTW it is # 850
I'm told that they have contacted all of the museums which own Perley Thomas cars and offered to purchase them. Most, including both museums in Connecticut, have declined; I read (in the last New Electric Railway Journal, IIRC) that two did accept their offer. Apparently there are a dozen or more of the cars in museums. They also located one being used on a farm.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The trolley museum in Washington PA has a "Desire" car. I saw it when I was out there a few weeks ago. It wasn't operating. The shop man I spoke to out there was very proud of its position in their collection and it is being restored. Unlikely they'd want to part with it...
-Dave
I'll have to get out there one of these days and see their collection - that museum is the only major American one east of the Mississippi that I haven't visited at some point in my life (although my last visits to Seashore and Union were over 20 years ago). I've also been to Halton County, outside Toronto, and a couple of other Canadian RR museums that just happen to have a couple of streetcars. One of these days I'll get to Montreal too.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Seashore's Perley Thomas car is NOPSI #966. It sees occasional passenger service... our visitors love to ride "The Streetcar Named Desire."
What Gomaco does is construct a modern street railway vehicle
with an old-time facade. In the museum biz, they aren't even
considered replicas. In theory, you could always build a replica
of any vehicle, assuming the materials are still available and
you have complete documentation on how the car was built. Generally,
even when you have a full set of blueprints, you don't know
quite how to build the replica because there is a lot that never
makes it onto the blueprint. Most of it you can guess by looking
at examples of similar workmanship at the time. If you really want
to get picky, you use the same tools and methods so things like
tooling marks on the wood come out right.
Of course, sometimes the materials are not available. Certain
insulating materials are tough to come by. Some woods that were
once readily available are now rare and extremely expensive.
Plus above all, labor is a lot more costly now. A Gomaco
car is about $400,000. To make a real replica from scratch would
be at least double that.
But as time passes, civilization changes. There are many things, good or bad that have passed on and their passage is just normal. Saying that the removal of old trolleys and their replacement with modern LRVs destroys civilization is similar to saying that records should re-enter mass production because they changed the world. There are museums to recreate and remember the past. The past has done just that, passed, for better or worse.
Eugenius is correct. There is nothing tragic about the passing
of time, per se. It would be nice if American society had a
better sense of history and culture...right now, for the average
person in the golden 16-30 demographics bracket, culture is the
1970s, ancient history is the 1960s.
There are certainly properties of, say, trolley cars whose
absence is regretable, for example, the level of hand-craftsmanship
that was to be found in each one. We can look back and lament
broad social trends, such as automobilization of America, and
with perfect hindsight see the downsides. There are certain
aspects of every day life that we can say were better in the
past. There are also things that were a lot worse, such as
small pox and world wars.
All in all, the passage of time itself is neither good nor bad.
It just happens.
We've had a nice discussion about culture, history, craftmanship & the enormous cost to re-create a streetcar from scratch. I've enjoyed it, and don't disagree with very much of what was said.
My use of the analogy to wildlife extinction was only to provoke a debate, so I'm sorry if it offended anyone.
It seems that more & more cities and their politions are realizing an electric streetcar downtown has some real value for that city, either to draw in tourest, or more efficiently move commuters. Many freight lines and long abandoned streetcar ROWs are being pressed into this service once again. We've even seen a few proposals right here in the Big Apple. Once the bus-substitution frenzy started many lines were shut down for all the wrong reasons, but that's history.
My point is, if the city wants to use old streetcars wouldn't it be in the museum's interest to sell/loan some of its' EXTRA equipment to that city. My opinion is yes. If the city decides to buy new LRV and only wants our HELP to get off on the right foot, that can have a long term benifit to the museum too.
Well this is just the opinion of a very junior member of a museum.
Mr t__:^)
I agree with you, Thurston. I'm not a member of any of the museums, but I know that this has been done several times in the past by different museums - just as an example, one of the Connecticut mueseums has an IT double-ended PCC that was refurbished (I'll not use the term "restored", since I'm not sure that would be accurate) by Shaker Heights and used there for a couple of years. I had a spectacular ride on it one night back in '93 at the museum. OK, this wasn't as a startup, but the arrangement worked to the benefit of both groups, and certainly I think the same could happen again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I Live in Phoenix, Az about 120 miles to the south in Tucson 6 years ago on 4th Avenue in downtown the city was remodeling the streetscape and found a pair of Original steetcar tracks 2 feet under the street still intact and well preserved with no rust. The Old Pueblo Streetcar co. restored this 2 mile line and opened it one year later with 2 restored Tucson City streetcars 1920era (No A/C) now they operate with these two cars & A TTC PCC car, A car from Down Under and a car from Japan. The line has also been extended 2 miles to the east to The University Of Arizona Campus (Go Wildcats!)
This System operates weekends and holidays for the normal fares/passes used on Tucson's Sun Trans Bus System.
Thanks for the report ... I didn't know we had TWO Steve's from there on this site. Steve B, have you been on that line ?
Mr t__:^)
I live in metro Denver, not Tuscon. That's OK, no sweat. No, I haven't been on that line.
Speaking of Denver, overhead catenary is being strung along the trackwork of the new extension; however, it stops before the first flyover north of Evans Ave. The second flyover further south is coming along nicely. The north approach ramp is almost finished, and the concrete molds and scaffolding under the main span are being removed.
Portland Oregon has had trolleys from gomaco for years now they are exactly like the ones that ran to councle crest a hilly area west of downtown Portland,we have four cars only difference is they have pantagraphs not trolley poles.and light rail is expanding east -west and soon north to south and an airport trolley line has just been started......
there is an r6 ind car sitting in the middle of goldens resturant on
richmond av in staten is.it is nicely restored(but truckless),with
tables and chairs inside for dining.i am trying to find out what #
car this was during it"s service life.i can find no record of it on
the museum roster and the # plates have been removed from this car.
does anyone have any info on the identity of this car???????????????
I haven't been there in over a year, but I believe it's one of the old R-7/9 cars, due to the interior paint job. They also left the 1977 ads in place from when the car was removed from service.
There is also an R1-9 inside the NYS museum in Albany sitting on a track with a fake 3rd rail (but I wouldn't touch it!!)
The SARGE-my homepage
That's R-9 #1802, isn't it?
1802 is at Coney Island, 1801 is up at Albany.
-Stef
Close. I stand corrected.
I have no idea!!!!
This afternoon I received a scenic column-by-column tour of
the Queens Blvd IND. It took over 1/2 hour to get from Forest
Hills to Roosevelt Ave. Command Center said there was "debris
on the roadbed on the local track between 36 & QP"....I wonder
what was REALLY going on. Anyone know? Problem in the construction
zone? I never got down there to check it out. I bailed to the #7
at Roosevelt.
Why is it that whenever there's a minor problem, RTO is completely
paralyzed? Command Center shows absolutely no ingenuity or initiative
in running around it. They just have everyone wait it out. In
the middle of the afternoon with light manhattan-bound riding, there's
no reason to have the board lit up solid from QP back to Continental
just because you have D1 track out of service between Roosevelt and
QP. Is there still a functioning crossover at Northern Blvd
on the local? I think one "customer" on our paused train summed
it best: "see, this is why you need to have a car"
I dunno, Jeff, I guess because of my experience on the LIRR, I'm usually very impressed with the TA's handling of delays. Usually, there's not that much they can do, but, they do usually do what makes sense. In the AM rush, I take the flushing line from HP ave to Grand Central, and what they usually do when there's a problem in manhattan is turn trains at Hunterspoint. It doesn't help me get into the city faster, but the rationale is clear -- it keeps people moving forward, and keeps the trains spread out properly, so when service resumes, you don't have dozens of trains waiting to go south, and nothing available for northbound service. It also allows people back down the line to at least make it as far south as possible.
The other lines and reroutes I've seen helped more -- the Bway line is obviously a candidate for an easy reroute onto the unused express tracks in time of incident, and the for the lex, the usual solution is to jam local and express service onto the same track. The one thing I think they ought to do more quickly but don't, is send some express trains down the local track in front of a stalled local train -- i.e. there's a stalled local at 59th southbound -- I think it would make sense in that case to send half the expresses down the local from 42nd to the bridge. I've also never seen them go wrong-rail to keep things moving, but during the rush, that doesn't really make sense to do, (1) because there is no real "peak" direction in many places, and (2) the confusion of passengers would probably make these things self-defeating.
In your situation, the crossover you mention is a reverse crossover -- you can cross from D1 _northbound_ over to the northbound local track D2(or 4, I forget IND's if IND numbering is like BMT or IRT), but in order to continue south, you'd need to change ends twice. Besides, what about the problems you'd make for northbound traffic?
What they might have been able to do, is send local trains express from Roosevelt to QP, if the plant north of QP can handle that. I don't know what state the construction is at there, though, so I don't know if you can get them back onto the local track and into the 60th st tunnel right now. If you couldn't, you end up with all these trains going through thr 53rd st tunnel, and then what? Can't get back until Dekalb..
I usually have a radio with me when I'm on the trains, and I'm usually impressed with how fast everyone responds to problem situations, from the towers and control center rerouting things, to how fast supervision seems to show up, etc. Maybe my standards have been lowered by the LIRR, I dunno.
I think the LIRR has lowered your standards considerably.
In this case, they cut back G service to Court Square, sent the
Rs up the express to QP, where they switched back. As I said, the
board was one solid line of lights all the way back to Continental.
In a situation like that, you want to keep things moving at least
as far as Roosevelt, where people can get off to the Flushing line.
Much better to have a few crowded trains than a lot of empty trains
standing still. RTO always seems totally unprepared. As Steve
pointed out, having Command Center make decisions while staring
at an empty model board and lacking any idea of what train is where
is silly.
By the way, I heard it on my radio around 2:15 at kew gardens but kept going east.
Well, you were going in the better direction then :) (and don't
you mean North?)
Any idea what the "debris" was?
Don't NYC subways have a bar that dumps the brakes if the train hits enough debris on the track?
If the debris is in the same place on the tracks as the stop arm of a signal, the trip cock on the car body will hit the debris and the train brakes will go into emergency.
That happens about once a month on the Q Monday mornings, someone over the weekend sets up derbis on the unused express track. Hasn't happen recently with all the weekend construction though >G<.
It is almost ancient history, but when I was working midnites on the "D" back in 1982, we had a crew who reported approx. 3 AM, prepared the train in Stillwell Yard, then proceeded to become a "Rail Polisher" on the express track to Prospect Park and back. In this way, the rails can be shined up to prevent wheel slippage by that first scheduled express and check for debris on the tracks. Of course, they left the train in the station at Stillwell so it could be used for service when they returned. I don't know if there is currently a rail polisher before the first Q express in the morning.
As recently as '96, the Q switching job would bring a put-in out of Stillwell yard, make on pass on the Brighton express tracks as far as Prospect Park and then put the train on a layup track south of Brighton Beach. This would occur on Monday morning. I'm not sure if they still practice this.
I don't know, I will keep it in mind traveling late/early sunday. I do notice the build up on the express tracks when they aren't in service and it is real bad with a holiday weekend. No silver on the railhead anywhere. Even the third rail looks a bit rusty.
When I'm working, it's north - otherwise it it east.
TA lingo: NYCT trains run in a north/south pattern. LIRR, AMTRAK & MNCRR run in an east/west pattern.
There used to be one line (I think the Canarsie) in which
railroad north was actually compass south!
No, that's the Centre St. line. And this does make sense, because an old Bway-Bklyn local (#14) leaving Canal St. for Canarsie would be going mostly south for most of the route once it enters Brooklyn. A real oddity was when they rerouted this "K" service up 6th Av, and later to Jamaica. Then it had two "northern" terminals. (57th and Jamaica)
I wonder how one would designate my fantasy P train? It's the one that begins at Jamaica Center (lower level), runs along the Jamaica el, over the Willy B, then through the Christie Street connection, up 6th (or 8th?) Avenue, and back to Jamaica Center (upper level) via Queens Blvd.
Jamaica Center
-to-
Jamaica Center
-via-
Bridge and Tunnel
So which is the north terminal, the upper or lower platform?
I guess your train would be designated the same as the K/KK was. I don't know how that worked, but I'd guess it would logically "change direction" going through the chrystie st cut.
The R-7/9s which ran on the K/KK were signed:
168th St. Jamaica
57th St.
KK/Av. of Americas Local
My Eastern Division roller curtains support this, as their mechanism boxes are stamped, #1 Upper Destination and #2 Lower Destination. 168th St. is included in the former, and 57th St. is on the latter.
Staten Island Railway is East/West but runs North/South (well sort of) Tottenville bound is East and St George bound is West.
MNCRR is considered east-west?
Bill; I'm afraid its one of those things the MTA just had to change. Back when we were Conrail and earlier NYC all trains ran east or west,period. This eliminated confusion even it a line did run geographicly north or south for a distance. The Hudson Line,Harlem Line,Wassaic Extension,Danbury Branch and Waterbury Branch run north and south by timetable direction. The New Haven Line,New Canaan Branch and the Beacon Line run east and west by timetable direction.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[ In this case, they cut back G service to Court Square, sent the
Rs up the express to QP, where they switched back. As I said, the
board was one solid line of lights all the way back to Continental - In a situation like that, you want to keep things moving at least
as far as Roosevelt, where people can get off to the Flushing line. ]
So, you're saying that they should have kept some of them on the local track to Northern Blvd, and had them change ends just south of there, cross-over and proceed north back into Northern towards continental. That makes sense -- then as you say, you keep some service moving normally a little further along.
I'm surprised, though, that they couldn't keep everything moving along by just putting the G and R on the express track roosevelt -> QP. This is mid-day service, not peak..
One of the complaints I've heard TAers make is the amount of switching the TA has to do, especially on the IND which has different lines merge and diverge as a matter of course, and from DeKalb Ave to Coney Island. Other transit systems, it seems, just have straight lines of track. But then there is NO possiblity of a reroute.
Personally, I wish the TA had more connections for more options:
Ie. branches off the Manhattan Bridge tracks to the Cranberry and Rutgers tunnels. Connections from the A/C and J/Z to the Canarsie Line. And a connection from the #1 to the Joralemon St tunnel.
The most significant change related to moving trains during delays between the early 80s and today is who is calling the shots. When i first started, if there was a delay, the local supervision rerouted or turned trains as they saw fit. Since they were on the scene, it seemed logical that they would be in the best position to know what to do. Today, Control Center calls the shots. Local supervision just carries the water for the kings on the 3rd floor at Jay St. Since they don't have first hand info. the decisions they make are likely not the best, hence protracted delays.
And because of this, dispatchers on the road, in general, are afraid to make decisions. During delays, I sense absolute panic, not control, in the "Control Center". Those guys would never make it as air traffic controllers! Also, Control center gets mighty upset when more than 1 train service employee is talking at the same time. Hello: we can't hear others talking when we are talking! But the dispatchers in Control Center talk over each other all the time, so we can't desciper anything.
Absolutely right Bill. Yesterday I sat in the dispatchers office at 179th Street. It was exactly the type of chaos you describe.
Road crews are no better. I have been on the scene for several break downs. The Motormen working with me would not take any steps to overcome the problem, despite clear evidence that the problem was manageble. Why? Because they were afraid to make descisions.
Sounds like the old Soviet Union to me. And we all know what happened there.
I must say that there is something of a difference in the style of delay management between the IRT and the B Division. The B Division (BMT & IND) tend to wait for direction from Control Center. In the IRT, 75% of the time local supervision manages the delay with Control laying back. They actually let the dispatchers do their job.
Yes thats one good thing I love about the IRT. Sometimes the towers ignor Control. Like Yesterday your may have heard this on your radio. I was at 34 Street on a Downtown local. Times Square wanted to know why I was 10 Minutes late. So they give me a skip. My conductor was not makeing the annoutsments to skip and keeped the doors open. I tryed to communicate No Answer on PA,IC,and Radio. Also Times Square called control and they were trying to contact us. My Radio was in a dead spot. So Times Square rerouted my follower down the Express to Chamber and told me to continue local. After Times Square said they were sending a TSS after us he finilly shut the doors. Also my conductor was talking to control as we left. So my follower calls control on why I was not skiping I was around 18 Street. Control told me after 14 Street to make my next stop Chambers but Times square sez go local. So I just stayed local since this conductor was refusing to skip. Also this was not my reguler conductor he just jumped on my train and left my conductor on the platform forcing him to go one behind.
Also they did ask me why I didn't move the train. I simpley told them I can't move my train with the doors open and directed them to the conductor who then left the office without talking to them.
Talk about teamwork in the A division!
Yes most of the time there is teamwork going on in A Division. This was the first time a conductor didn't want to communicate with me. Not on the train or at the terminal. Times Square made a smart decision to keep me local because there where lots of people who got off the rerouted No.1 at 14 Street. This particaler Conductor was Extra and all the other T/O's had complains about this guy not communicating. This was a first for me.
[ Yes most of the time there is teamwork going on in A Division. This
was the first time a conductor didn't want to communicate with me. ]
I don't get it -- I just don't understand the reasoning that would cause the guy to ignore you. You said you tried PA icom and radio -- surely he must have heard one of these? Does he bring a walkman into the cab with him or what?
Let's hope he didn't open up on the wrong side at any station.
And you call that teamwork? Why was your follower minding your business? I respect a conductor who can handle himself as well as the one you described. He was on his train two minutes before his departure, your regular was not. He called control after leaving Times Square, keeping them informed. You also stated that your follower took a skip and you were told to go local so why should this guy refuse to skip. I can't understand a thing in this story except you were working with a really cool guy. What job were you working, Id like to look him up on the sheets. I'd like to work a pick or two with him. Ten minutes a night adds up at the end of the week. What can the TSS say to a conductor who leaves ample time for all to board and detrain and makes his announcements. The TA needs more people like that.
The problem was related to the construction between 36th St. and QP. I don't know all the details, but a concrete spill covered the running rails on D1 track, forcing all service down D3.
I've been in Washington, DC for the past three months (returning to the city in September). How's the Willy-B rehab going? Is it causing major problems, or are people settling into the alternate routes ok? Did the expanded service on the Canarsie Local help at all, or are they jammed 24/7? Also, what's the latest news on the Manhattan?
Thanks in advance,
Skip S. Topp
Willy B is scheduled to be back on line on 8/30.
I have received a report, from a reliable source may I add, of the sighting of R44's #5282 and #5283, in service on the "A" line.
Can anyone out there shed a candle's worth of light on this ghostly sighting? Perhaps #132 or #120 has been resurrected and #5283 repaired...
Wayne
Okay subtalkers,name the three hottest subway stations in the NYCTA.
Any line,any division,any borough.I'll name mine.
1) Grand Central 4,5,6 Hell on earth !
2) West 4th St A,C,E The hot air from below B,D,F,Q
has to go somewhere.
3) Penn Station 1,2,3,9 Sultry perfection !!
DON'T BREAK A SWEAT OVER THIS !!!
Bill Newkirk
Lexington-53rd Street!
Also they said 5th Ave-42nd Street reached a temperature of 120 degrees during the recent heat wave.
Wayne
I found Broadway/Myrtle pretty hot(I know, I know. That doesn't count).
Bedford Park Blvd, home of the B and D trains, is very hot. As soon as you enter the station, the heat hits you like the gates of Hell had opened up. It is like a beening in a boiler room.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
Hey, I remember getting off a nice, air-conditioned train at that very station on a late August day in 1978 when it was about 95 degrees outside. Talk about stepping into a blast furnace!
Nobody was passing out on the platform, though.
I remember Bat Day at Yankee Stadium, JULY 20, 1969. (Yankees vs. Senators) The same day men landed on the Moon (and later walked upon it). Cloudy, perhaps 95 degrees, a day much like today was here in New York. After the game (the Yankees won and Bobby Murcer and Ron Woods hit home runs), we poured down into the 161st Street-River Avenue IND station, the temperature in which was unmerciful, maybe 110 degrees. We waited. And we waited. THEN we heard a horn. Guess what we saw? A brand-spanking-new R42, lead by #4706, with a huge orange D in the front. The windows were all fogged up. We got on (along with a couple thousand other people). It was ICE COLD. The A/C was going full tilt. Having worked up a sweat on the sweltering platform, the cold air was quite a surprise. The train even smelled new. I'm sure it had a full charge of Freon in it. Even with the huge crowd aboard, it stayed comfortable all the way to 47th-50th Street.
It was my first ride aboard an R42.
Wayne
I was at that very game. We parked near my Father's dentist up on the Grand Concourse and took the IND down to Yankee Stadium. I even got a Bobby Murcer bat. (Of course I am a life long Met fan and we only went to the game because it was bat day). I am sorry to say that I don't remember how hot the temperature was down on the platform, but it wasn't cool.
I think they were ALL Bobby Murcer bats - mine was (I still have it).
I bought a plastic horn outside the stadium. When I tried to bring it in, they took it away from me, put a claim check on it and told me I could pick it up after the game, which, of course, I did. Of course, when I saw the "D" pulling in with its Orange sign, I blew the horn in response to his. I believe this train was a put-in; nobody was on it and the windows were fogged up, which tells me it was sitting. The car we got on wasn't the lead one; it was #4657, which later that summer transferred to the "B".
Wayne
I think my sister got a Frank Fernandez bat. I ask her but I doubt that she will remember, she was only 7 at the time.
mark
Union Square is pretty bad, especially the IRT platforms.
Times Sq IRT is also pretty brutal as well.
Peace
DaShawn
Any express station on the Contract 1 portion of the IRT is awful, because they built in extra waterproofing back in 1904 that locks in the heat. The local stations at least have the vent gratings to the street.
On top of that, there is no crash wall between the express tracks, so a passing train doesn't push the air forward. It just dissipates to the sides and doesn't circulate.
Thanks for that information. That makes alot of sense.
Peace
DaShawn
WTC "E" line platform. About 3 car lengths before the leaving end, you can feel the hot air coming at you like a pizza oven's door was left open.
[1) Grand Central 4,5,6 Hell on earth !]
Was there Wed. ... walked in with a McFlurry, it was turning to soup before my eyes. Had to DRINK it quick.
Mr t__:^)
The TA has never faced up to the "hot stations" issue. They had tempertures taken once during a cold wave! Practically, I think AC is only really needed in CBD stations and major stations elsewhere, such as Jay Street. At my stop (Prospect Park F), you're generally cooler underground despite the subway. Chambers St (A) and Jay Street can be brutal, however. Unfortunately, the politics would be AC for all or none.
I'd like to seen a honest measurement of temperature after a few days of a heat wave, at say 6:00 p.m. Compare the platform temp to the surface air temp, and factor in a comfort benefit for being out of the sun (except on El platforms in the sun at that time). No harm in knowing, right?
Had to wait twenty minutes (!) at 49th/7th Avenue before an 'N' OR 'R' would come. Sheer misery! No relief even by the stairs.
They don't call them (R)arely and (N)ever for nothing.
My vote: South Ferry, especially with a "1" sitting pretty blowing hot air out of its A/C vents.
The express platforms at 59th St./Lexington Av. get extremely hot. I think it is because the tunnel at that point wasn't designed originally to be a station. Was any new ventilation added when the express platforms opened in 1959? If so, could it be malfunctioning now, resulting in the excess heat?
Gosh, could it have been any hotter on the Roosevelt/Jackson Hgts station...absolutely sweltering the past days, even the breeze from passing trains made all of us feel like we were in a convection oven.
68 St./Hunter College can get excessively hot and still, though it actually used to be worse about 10 or so years ago.
(The hot air from below B,D,F,Q has to go somewhere.)
Don't tell me Hillary was on that line!
RIM SHOT!!!
B,D,F,Q at Herald Square is pretty hot, and the N/R platforms there are even hotter.
If it's underground, it's H-O-T!!!!!!!!!.
Almost
Every station has been mentioned by
now!!
href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff">The
SARGE-my homepage
8/15/99 10:01A
WOW!!! 23 responses. You were all put to the test and the winner is Bill from Maspeth. He's right,if it's underground,it's HOT!!
First prize is a lifetime Metrocard that successfully swipes only one time every time!!
Bill Newkirk
Hello
i am planning on visiting NY City in about 2 weeks and want very much to ride the city subways for fun and picture-taking. Can anyone email me with recomendations as to the basics of the system, what to ride, where to go, etc?
Any help is much appreciated.
Thank You
I have a Question about the speedlimits on the East River Tunnels from Penn Station. On Tuesday I went with Thurston and Doug aka BMTman on the Field Trip to Beaches of Rock & Long. Anyway I took the LIRR to Penn from Long Beach to Jamacia to Penn. This was my first time on the LIRR (Most times I'm heading to NJ so I'm only on NJT or Amtrak). Now when I take NJT from Penn on the Hudson Tunnels I know the speed limit is around 65 mph (I've mainly ridden on Arrow III and ALP-44 pulled trains), but when I took and LIRR M-1 thru the East River tunnel I know I was traveling faster than 65. The only other times I travel out of Penn thru the East River tunnels is on Amtrak and the cars used on Amtrak give a smoother ride vs. commuter cars. So it was difficult to get an idea of the speed taken thru the tunnels. Anyway I was wondering if anyone can tell me 1. What the speed limit in the tunnels comming out of Penn (both the East River and Hudson) and 2. What is the highest speed the M-1s do and where on the LIRR?
Thanks
AJ:
I don't have the complete answers to your questions, but I can ask an Engineer tonight on the way home if I remember. I think that the limit is 65, though -- I've never seen any train go faster than that.
The metropolitans (M1/M3) on the LIRR and MNCR are all built with a design speed of 100MPH. The LIRR's systemwide MAS is 80MPH, which is in effect in many places. On your trip, Woodside -> around kew gardens might have been the only section. Some of the branch lines have slower speeds (Oyster bay is 65), and the old diesel equipment is also limited by special instruction to 65MPH.
I was under the impression that the MAS in the tunnels was 60. As for the M-1s, one engineer I talked with once claimed 117 as a top speed. As far as the LIRR's systemwide MAS - yes, it is 80 - however - I was on one that was going about 87 - I was in the head end, the engineer had the cab door *wide* open. Stood back a few feet and saw 87 on the speedo (digital). Engineer was NOT too happy when he noticed me standing there!!!
The all time record for me was 96 on a Septa train 3 years ago. I think I was on an Amtrak train to Hartford (running WAYYYY late), where we were going well over the 80 MAS on that line (at least I THINK it's 80) I can't think of any other way we could have made up 30 min of time between NH and Hartford.
It's a good thing they had finished replacing the dual track with brand new single pair of rails or you would have come flying off the track at that speed.
P.S. That's is also why I was so puzzled when you complained recently of how long it normally takes to make that run (incl. waiting for what seems like for ever at stations with no customers). Why did they bother with all that work if they're not going to take advantage of it
Mr t__:^)
You know, I was going to raise that same question about the welded rail on the Brighton line. Of course, with no field shunting, it becomes a moot point. Except, of course, with the slant R-40s.
on the jersey side of penn station looks like they have removed the wayside signals just cab signals. can't tell you speed because we were chasing a late runnig amtrack train.
"The all time record for me was 96 on a Septa train 3 years ago. I think I was on an Amtrak train to Hartford (running WAYYYY late), where we were going well over the 80 MAS on that line (at least I THINK it's 80) I can't think of any other way we could have made up 30 min of time between NH and Hartford."
Ever hear of schedule padding?
The hudson Bergen Light Rail is supposed have a hoboken terminal station. Is ther any evidence of construction at the terminal
TONS of it. The whole corridor from Exchange Place to Hoboken shows signs of construction. - Overpasses, a new station at Hoboken, etc.
I was riding the SIR earlier this week, and we were going out from St. George, southbound but on the inbound, north boundtrack,which is not unusual---you simply switch to southbound eventually. This time, there was a train coming into St. George on the same track. ( I could see this from a side window since I was in the last car). We went to south bound track and they switched off to their right at what seemed the last possible opportunity. No big deal, I guess, but cool nonetheless.
The SIR runs east west according to the Railroad's timetable. Tottenville bound is East and all signals that way start with E###. Because of the layout of St. George the tracks closest to the water (tracks 1-4 I think) can only be reached from the westbound main. There is a switch in the tunnel between east and west main tracks but when the express leaves with the local 2 minutes behind sometimes the signal won't clear and they have to use the switch furhter down the west main (heading east) outside the tunnel.
No big deal as you said. Just like the higher number tracks and the wye can only be reached from the east bound main track as well.
Makes for some intresting moves when they shuffle equipment after the PM rush. Seeing a B car lead a train off Track 1 through the tunnel switch and back over the wye.
The wye is the only place you can turn equipment on the SIR and the trackage does not even belong to the MTA (unless that has changed in the past 4 yrs).
Nope. They removed the eastbound switch from the tunnel, and moved it outside the tunnel. There is a switch from the westbound to the eastbound outside of Tompkinsville. Tracks 1-10 (10 being the wye) are accessible from the westbound, 5-10 from the westbound. 11-12 are accessible only from the tail of the wye.
-Hank
Its interesting to read about the cities that are rediscovering how trolleys and rapid transit can reduce car traffic. Its a shame that NYC paved over or tore up the trolley rails. Imagine what a rapid transit network it would be with Metrocard and free transfers. Comments????
In Dallas the rebirth of the trolley was helped by something New York doesn't have -- alleys.
Instead of running the tracks through downtown along one of the main streets, mixing with traffic, they decided to comandeer one of the alleyways that had been used for back-building trash pick-ups and delivery drop-offs, and put the rails along there. That helps avoid the problem of a car-trolley conflict you'd have on 42nd St, or any other major street in New York, though on the downside, they have had a couple of people killed by ignoring the flashing signals and walking across the alleyway as the trolley was arriving.
Northwest of downtown the line runs along the median of the notoriously slow Central Expressway, much the way the heavy rail lines in Chicago and suburban D.C. do.
Thanks for the info on Dallas. Just read an article about pacific electric in Los Angeles. I'll bet the people in L.A. wish thay had that transit system again. It seems that the bus interests in the 50's pulled a fast one to kill trolley systems. Now most major cities are wishing they had rapid transit.
"In Dallas the rebirth of the trolley was helped by something New York doesn't have -- alleys."
Many of the Chicago rapid transit lines run in alleyways. While the Loop, the Lake Street L, and parts of the old Northwestern L (now carrying the Brown and Purple Lines) run over streets, most of the L tracks run in alleys, as do the ground-level portions at the ends of the Brown (Ravenswood) and Blue (Douglas Branch) Lines. These at-grade alley lines are fenced in from the part of the alley accessible to motor vehicles. (Chicago L buffs: were these portions of the line always fenced-in, or were they once openly accessible?) In fact, the South Side L (now part of the Green Line) was often called the "Alley L."
One advantage of an alley L was that, under Illinois law, the consent of a majority of propertyholders facing the street was needed for a street L, but no such vote was required for an alley L.
As to rail in expressway medians, I think its one of the greatest free advertisements for public transit ever devised. As the motorists sit trapped in congested traffic, the trains fly past them at 50 MPH or better! At the least, it reminds the train passengers exactly why they use rapid transit instead of a car despite all the transit problems so often brought up on this board.
John, you are in theory correct about meians, AND Chicago pioneered this with the Congress line. However, the morning the Dan Ryan Expwy opened to autos, both it and South Shore Drive were parking lots and the IC & Rock Island together collected 5000 fewer fares. I suspect that car usage on the Ryan today is still gridloick most mornings, and I doubt that either CTA or Metra ridership stats are as good as in the fifties.
What ever happened to the plans of the 42nd St. trolley??
I haven't heard anything about it in a while. I think the plans are in limbo.
The 42nd Street trolley illustrates why nothing much gets done in modern NYC.
When it looked like there was a good chance that this might actually happen, the City Council and Mayor's Office began fighting as to who would have exclusive jurisdiction to designate future trolley lines.
Of course, we don't even have trolley line #1. I think all politicians in NY like to do is fight. It doesn't matter whether they get their own pet projects done, so long as they prevent the other guy from getting his pet project done.
I haven't heard anything about it in a while. I think the plans are in limbo.
The third rails on the SIR run inside the two tracks. Where there is a switch, the third rails run outside the two tracks. I'm sure there used to be a switch north of Jefferson Ave. station. The third rails still run outside the tracks for a short span in that area, but the switch is gone. There is now a switch south of that station. I ride the SIR very infrequently--- does anyone have any info on any track work done in the past say, 10---15 years? Also, with only two tracks in existence, did they do the work at night or run abbreviated service ( e.g.---shuttle bus)during any work?
When track work is done, trains run wrong rail through the work area via track permits. They even once used a broken old doll for the operator to pass back and forth.
MOW trains will even be on the "in service" track and will move off for a revenue train. Please remember non rush hour train service is a 30 minute headway and even with that they will schedule adjust for track work.
All turnouts or sidings like at the Staten Island Advance were removed. There are a few left, one east of Hugonot, that MOW trains can side at. An extra switch was added East of Great Kills so a reverse move is not required to cross. Another one added at Hugonot (pardon the spelling) for trains to go in service for the morning rush. Some work was done at Tottenville so they can store 3 or so trains there as well. All other cross overs require reverse moves I believe. There might be one or two between Tompkensvilel and St. George that does not require reverse moves. They have switch machines and Great Kills and Hugonot have switch machines as well but the other cross overs are hand thrown.
That's what I can remember (haven't lived on S.I. in 4 yrs) and some of it could be wrong.
Thanks for the response.
It's a lot wrong, Lou :)
The crossovers were moved and/or replaced within the last 5 years. Previously, all crossovers were trailing point; located west of Grasmere, west of Jefferson Ave, east of New Dorp, east of Great Kills, east of Huguenot, and east of Pleasant Plains (I'm missing a few, for sure)
At Great Kills and Huguenot, there were spring switches (marked by a black and white plate marked 'SS') that allowed crossovers from the eastbound to the westbound. these switches were replaced with same, although the locations were changed, and new facing point switches installed in the same areas. The Grasmere crossover was moved to Old Town, the Jeffereson Ave crossover was moved to east of the station. All switches on the main line, except for 2 switches between St. George and Tompkinsville (electric; controlled by tower B) and the crossover at Clifton, Great Kills, and Huguenot (Spring Switches) are hand throw.
The St. George and Tottenville terminal areas are controlled from Tower B in St. George. There is an RFP out for a new signal system and automatic switches.
Trains go into service for the AM rush at Great Kills and Huguenot, as well as Tottenville; some evening locals terminate at GK, all these trains will use the trailing-point crossovers to cross to the opposite track to continue their trips.
-Hank
Oh well,
But I would like to point out that there is still no TOWER A, and TOWER B has always been called that. Maybe back in B&O days there was a tower A?
I believe Tower A was the yard tower at Arlington. Tower C was the interlocking at Clifton, and Tower D was Tottenville. A and C are gone, and D is now controlled by B. This is how it was told to be by one of the 'old hands'
-Hank
The reverse crossover located between the New Dorp and Oakwood stations was removed about a year ago.
How does the ACELA compare to TGV? What will be its advantages?
Has anyone seen much info about the new Virgin Trains hitting the UK mainland next year?
Thanks for the help.
- Jordan
There is an article regarding to Acela Express by Don Phillips:
http://search.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/1999-08/01/083l-080199-idx.html
His article is great! This article can answer all of your questions about Acela Express.
Chaohwa
The article says ...
Amtrak is still negotiating with New York and Connecticut commuter authorities to increase speeds from 75 mph to 90 mph on track that they own south of New Haven.
Wonder if this will happen and if Metro-North trains willbe allowed to run at higgher speeds, too.
the train is four inches too wide to be able to use its entire tilting capability. To prevent any possibility of hitting passing trains, the train will be limited to 4.2 degrees of tilt instead of 6.8 degrees.
I wouldn't want to be the "passing train" if the tilting system malfunctions.
Neither side is eager to discuss why the cars were not made four inches narrower, although they say that decision was driven by seat and aisle width.
Wonder if the seat "fiasco" regarding the R-62s ever came into play regarding the "aisle and seat width" ... if they just overcompensated a little ...
--Mark
/*Amtrak is still negotiating with New York and Connecticut commuter authorities to increase speeds from 75 mph to 90 mph on
track that they own south of New Haven.
Wonder if this will happen and if Metro-North trains willbe allowed to run at higgher speeds, too. */
I don't think it will - I've read MN is VERY conservative with their speed limits. If they let Amtrak go 90, I'm pretty sure THEY'LL go 90 too!! Though the idea of 90mph New Haven trains is nice. I don't see it happewning though - that's a pretty twisty line!
Well I can help you out with the ACELA questions. Mainly the ACELA and the TGV are similar but very different at the sametime. The most obvious similarity is the car body, is obviously a TGV based design. Also the ACELA will use a similar traction system that is used on the most recent TGV used in Europe. From there the two trains start to really differ. First the ACELA is about 45% heavier than the most modern TGVs this is mainly due to the new FRA rules on the construction of car bodied and the use of stainless steel vs. composites and aluminum which is use on the TGV. Also there are small differences like the ACELA will use a series of 3 disk brakes vs. 4 on the TGV (Why? I'm not sued maybe equip.??). Also one big difference is that while some of the Acela trainsets are maried pairs, some locomotives produced will be seperate units. This is totaly different than the TGV, in which there aren't any individual locomotive units. This is just a small example of the differences, to get a very good overview of the Acela got to this site Click here
Hope this helps.
The ACELA is projected to operate in service at 240km/h (150mph). The TGV varients have demonstrated the ability to run in service at 300km/h (187mph).
Add this to the fact that quite a few sections of the planned ACELA route are severely speed limited, and it becomes clear that comparing a TGV Atlantique or Duplex to the ACELA is somewhat pointless.
I won't go into all the drawbacks of using unshared bogies, except to say that the MOW people will be very busy.
The 1999 Fall Trolley Extravaganza will be held at the Holiday Inn in King of Prussia (Valley Forge), Pennsylvania on August 27th and 28th.
There will be special emphasis on Subway and Rapid Transit Modeling at this meet.
The Modular Layouts of the East Penn Traction Club (HO, O, & G Scale),
Bill Brandt (O Scale) and Curt Seeliger (HO Elevated of Chicago Prototype) will be on display and in operation.
There will also be Manufacturers, and Dealers selling Subway and Traction Models, Parts, Books, and Traction Railroadiana of all types.
There will be clinics and door prizes will be awarded.
The meet is open on Friday, August 27th from 7:00pm to 11:00pm and on Saturday, August 28th from 9:30am to 5:00pm. Most activity will take place on Saturday, as Friday is basically a set up night, though some dealers will be in attendance on Friday.
The Holiday Inn is located next to one of the largest shopping malls in the United States and can be visited by the families of those attending the meet.
For more information, we can be contacted at the above e-mail address or by mail at: Trolley Extravaganza, P.O. Box 331, Middletown, NY, 10940 or by phone at (914) 342-5623.
Hmm won't be able to make this one (I'll be riding the trams of Amsterdam), but I'll add it to the upcoming events log. By the way, will the show ever return to New Brunswick?
-Dave
Dave:
Only if the Hyatt Hotel can give us a reasonable rental rate for the room. $5,000.00 per day was just a bit too much!!!!.
Amsterdam, eh? The #13 tram went right by our hotel when I was there in 1978. I rode it from downtown to the hotel after doing some sightseeing and taking one of those boat rides.
I'll be there!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Is it just me, or have these things been getting even less reliable as time goes on? It seems like some transit systems work bugs out of new equipment. The LIRR works bugs into them.
For about 2 weeks now, I've been taking the same trains both ways in the AM and PM. 509 in the AM and 180/570 in the PM.
In the AM, half the time I get on, and the silly thing keeps telling me for the whole trip that we're in Oyster Bay (I get on in Roslyn), this is the train to HuntersPt Ave (true), and that the next station will be Locust Valley. As if the system doesn't think we're moving (maybe they have it programmed to anticipate LIRR delays :) ).
In the PM, though it's even more amusing. I get on in Jamaica, and It says "this station is Penn Station (Uh, not with a DE30 at the point), this is the train to Oyster Bay (correct), The next station will be Long Island City (!).
Like I said before, you _can't_ get to LIC from Penn without making a reverse move, unless you go through a loop in one of the yards or something!
My understanding about this system is that it has each train's schedule programmed in, and then it works based on mileage from the terminal. The crews punch in the Train #, at the initial terminal, and then it can calculate where it is based on mileage. I suppose it corrects itself whenever the doors open and close, so any slight error due to incorrect mileage measurements doesn't add up over the whole trip.
That being the case -- what would cause it to think 570 goes from Penn to LIC? Maybe the LIRR has some interesting schedule changes ahead for us...
The right way would be to use GPS data as the input to "where am I?". That way, it doesn't matter what the train number is, or what the engineer does. In fact, if a train takes the wrong line-up, it would announce its location properly!
The new tech buses being tested in Boston are using GPS, and I hear it's quite successful.
[ The right way would be to use GPS data as the input to "where am I?". ]
I thought the same thing. That's probably why they're not doing it that way.
How much are these cars costing, anyways -- $5M? GPS receivers are relatively cheap.
It isn't just LIRR. Amtrak has the same problem in the cars out here on the west coact -- the "California Amtrak" bilevels.
When they were new, they had the on-board, automatic announcement system. It also had a visual display (so hearing-impaired passengers could read it, hevean help those who were blind AND deaf....) The
systems were screwed up from day one. They were disconnected about six months after the cars went in service. Now it's just your usual conductor-on-scratchy/overmodulated/undervolumed/static-y PA system.
The LIRR uses large train crews. Why doesn't one of them just announce the station stop. Would this old fashioned method, since it did not use expensive electronic eauipment, run afoul of the Americans with disabilities act?
Anyone ride on a MSBA (or Long Island Bus) bus
lately. Those automatic announcements every block
has to be one of the most irritating things I've
ever heard. I'm sure glad I'm not a driver, I'd
drive the bus (as Ralph Kramdem would say) straight
to Bellevue!!! By the way, although I definitely
believe you, everytime I've been on a bi-level on
the O.Bay line the announcements were accurate.
(Unless I didn't know where I was!!!
some
jokes for my sub-talk friends!!
[ The LIRR uses large train crews. Why doesn't one of them just announce
the station stop. Would this old fashioned method, since it did not
use expensive electronic eauipment, run afoul of the Americans with
disabilities act? ]
Probably, because deaf people couldn't hear them.
(although the way some of these trains have the PA volume set, maybe some deaf people could..)
NJTransit Comet IV have that automatic PA system, Acctually I think all Bombadier new cars have this option I wonder if the Acela trains will have it to. Anyway NJT doesn't seem to have too many problems with it. I often take NJT into Penn and about 90% of the time the automatic PA seems to be working fine.
I was fed up with the C3 annoucments the first time I took the bilevel.
We got to East Williston, door open, doors close so far so good. We move three inches. Evey minute NEXT STOP ALBERTSON, TRAIN TO OSTERY BAY, for the next 30 minutes the same thing over and over. DON'T FORGET THE DING!!
I wish the crews would shut it off when they know there are problems. Or it should automagicly shut off when it knows the train is not moving.
8/13/99 4:25P
A visit to NYC's electric underground yesterday revealed the following. ON the #3 Bway/7th Ave express amongst the blue stickered (Lenox) R-62A's was one #1900 series R-62A with a yellow (Pelham) sticker mid train. Any explanations out there for this ?
Bill Newkirk
Bill,
What are your plans for the 2000 Subway Calendar? Any sneak preview of what image will adorn the cover? (As usual, I'll take three! One for home, one for office, and one for my brother who has moved to the Left Coast.)
Todd, et. al,.
It's already out ... picked up mine at Shoreline @ Branford.
Cover is a Red Bird in White, i.e. R33. No 62s, highest number is 42.
This year also SIRT, but you'll have to wait till Dec 2000. Another nice shot is NYCH, two diesels doing interchange work in '88.
Mr t__:^)
8/13/99 4:25P
A visit to NYC's electric underground yesterday revealed the following. ON the #3 Bway/7th Ave express amongst the blue stickered (Lenox) R-62A's was one #1900 series R-62A with a yellow (Pelham) sticker mid train. Any explanations out there for this ?
Bill Newkirk
I believe #1901 thru #1915 (with the exception of #1909) have returned to the #3 line from their stay at Hotel Pelham. The #3 line has ceded some of its cars to the Grand Central-Times Square shuttle, and the cars which were there have returned to the #6. Some of them have probably been joined into five-car sets by now.
Wayne
The other day I took one of the various combinations of three trains I can use to get from Roslyn to Union Square in the AM. (509 -> Jamaica, LIRR to ENY, NYCT "L" Atlantic Ave to Union Sq).
Anyways, the T/O had the cab door open, and as we went along, he'd periodically hit this Reset button, located on the panel above and to the left of the MC, next to the buzzer, and above the control cut-out, I think.
I couldn't determine exactly what events caused him to hit this, though.. At first, I thought that it was a Control Reset, and It seemed like he hit it shortly after gapping. But that didn't seem right..
(a) you don't normally need to reset anything after gapping on any SMEE equipment -- and this T/O probably wasn't around in the Hi-V days when you did!
(b) I observed that the train was still responding to the master controller -- i.e. we were taking power before and after the "reset" button was hit.
So, my guess is that either (a) the button resets something else, like the HVAC system, or (b) He does this out of habit because of some past widespread equipment problem.
Can someone enlighten me?
Hum, really nothing to reset. Maybe he was a former LIRR motorman. Any maybe he though the button is the MU reset. The only thing I could think of. Maybe Steve could explain.
It's the traction motor overload reset. Pressing it energizes
a trainline wire which will reset any group switches that are
tripped out from a propulsion or braking fault (a "dead motor")
Frequent use of the reset on modern equipment is a bad idea,
because there is a lock-out trip counter which will prevent
the reset from working on a car after the third reset. The counter
is reset to 0 whenever you dump, as long as it has not yet been
exceeded. If you ever see a solid
(as opposed to flashing) yellow guard light, it means that car
is dropped out and locked out. When that happens you have to
go under the car to reset the counter.
Most NYCT cars do not have the auto-reset. Most of us in maintenance think it a poor idea. If a car trips out 3, 4 or 5 times in a single run I think the car is trying to tell us something like "HELP". Constantly resetting the overloads without determining why the thing is tripping out is asking for trouble.
New York City gave up the profit-making TBTA, along the the TA, when the MTA was formed in 1968. As part of the deal, improvements were promised, some for the commuter railroads, and some for the subways. The Second Ave subway was part of the deal, so was the LIRR to GCT. From the 1969 NYC Plan, I guess that the 63rd St tunnel and Archer Ave were also in the plan, along with rolling stock purchases and grade separation on the Babylon line.
Now the big debate is whether city residents should insist on the 2nd Avenue in exchange for the LIRR to GCT, or should help pay for LIRR to GCT with a suggestion that perhaps the rest of the state will help pay for 2nd Avenue -- someday.
Which leads me to a question -- what was in the original MTA plan, and what was actually built? How did we do with THAT promise? Before I spend a lunch hour on it, does anyone know the answer?
No, don't fund LIRR-GCT. Don't fund anything that provides rail access from outside the City to inside the City. Make it as inconvenient as possible to work or do business in the City.
Then watch the City complete the process it started with LaGuardia, which accelerated with Lindsay, and go straight down the tubes.
I believe the issue is whether to fund the 2nd Avenue subway and other improvements in the city. No one in the city opposes the LIRR to GCT. People outside the city oppose subway improvments.
[I believe the issue is whether to fund the 2nd Avenue subway and other improvements in the city. No one in the city opposes the LIRR to GCT. People outside the city oppose subway improvments.]
I wouldn't agree with your third sentence. Many suburban commuters have to use the subways once they arrive at GCT/Penn/PABT. Suburban residents who work elsewhere are likely to come into the city from time to time, and they too appreciate better subway service.
I believe the issue is whether to fund the 2nd Avenue subway and other improvements in the city. No one in the city opposes the LIRR to GCT. People outside the city oppose subway improvments
I won't play the game because your basic premise is flawed. There are most definitely bean counters in the City who watch every cent that goes to the Commuter Roads (including the commuters' own money) and complain. This includes the Straphangers' Campaign. I would like you to cite a single recognizable suburban newspaper or organized group that opposes subway construction (at least on the NY side--I don't see Jersey papers).
And your original question essentially asks the question: Should WE let THEM get something until WE get what WE want. This is the kind of political parochialism that has poisoned planning in the New York region.
Without playing the US vs. THEM game, you could better question how the MTA, its constituent agencies and even its predecessors has spent the money it already had.
Foe example, the frittering away of the $500 million bond (1950) for the original Second Avenue subway (which was to have been from 4 to 6 tracks--nowadays we can't build 2).
Or the 1970's investment in building a series of holes in the ground for the Second Avenue Line (including downtown) when we might have been concentrating on the weakest link in 2nd Ave: 63rd street to a connection with Pelham Bay?
Should the TA have been sinking money into Chrystie Street, and the 6th Ave. express tracks before 2nd Ave.? Or building the 63rd St. tunnel and its super-expensive midtown connections before 2nd Ave.?
For that matter, should the City have lusted after tearing down the 2nd Avenue el while the 2nd Avenue subway was just pie-in-the-sky?
This does not apply only on the subway. Should the MTA/LIRR have spent a fortune rebuilding Harold Jct., which increased reliability but didn't cut running times, before rebuilding the Jamaica station complex, which could have had a significant effect on both reliability and rush hour timings?
But listing the above (a very incomplete list) implies that this is all history. It is not.
By asking the comfy US vs. THEM question, you avoid asking a much more relevant one: would a 2nd Ave. subway be the best investment of major construction funds for the City? I would say not. A permanent replacement and/or supplement for the Manhattan Bridge, consisting at least of a connection between the BMT and the York Street tunnel, and a new tube under the East River is more important.
Second Avenue is a very important project, but it is covered, however poorly, in the short term by the Lex and express buses on 1st and 2nd Avenues. However, southern Brooklyn stands to lose all of its viable rapid transit. It's only a single really bad engineer's report on the Manhattan Bridge away...
Us vs. them thinking is needed because NYC and state have been run on the premise of special deals for special people, and screw everyone else. Not being one of the special people, I object. I'm for equality.
Equality could come in two forms.
The first is "you pay for yours, we'll pay for ours, and we'll cut out the middleman in Albany." I think a reinstated dedicated commuter tax is a great way to pay for suburban improvements, and a reinstated NYC resident income tax surcharged is a great way to pay for city improvements. No one can rip anyone off, and there is no need for you and I argue about who is getting a fair share of joint money.
The second is to simply pass out dollars per capita, or per person employed, and let localities decide what to do with it.
Either way, what happens to me doesn't depend on you, or vice versa. Equal money doesn't lead to equal results. Neither NYC or Nassau are worldbeaters with regard to getting more bang for the buck. But at least no one would be able to complain about anyone else.
My observation is that money flows to power, not to need. I'm not happy about being forced to throw my money in a big pot, then hope I get something out of it. That applies to federal money as well as state money.
If Long Island and NYC knew they would have to build their own improvements, instead of waiting around until they could make the other guy (and upstate NY) pay for it, perhaps they'd just start building.
The most direct way to accomplish part of what you propose would be for New York City to become a separate state.
I think that would have many surprising and unanticipated consequences.
This is similiar to something I've always thought would be the best thing: a new state consisting of NYC, LI, Central and Northern NJ; Lower upstate NY and CT up to about Stamford. This would finally force an area that is so dependent on all the bits scattered across 3 states to play nice together.
Best bet is for NYC, LI and Westchester County to form their own state, with Staten Island joining New Jersey.
Perhaps then we'd get some better federal aid.
Wayne
I've always wondered what would happen if Staten Island would secede from NYC, although still part of the state. Would the Yukon and Castleton bus depots become part of MTA-Staten Island Bus, what about the express busses and the S79 and S53 to Brooklyn? Would the TBTA continue to operate the V Bridge or would it switch to the Thruway Authority or the Bridge Authority (the TBTA being entirely within NYC). Ehat would happen politically? Would there be other parts of the city willing to secede? Would the city fall apart?
I always thought that SI secession was a silly idea to the point of actually having a reporter from The SI Advance come over for dinner and having the results printed (about three months after moving out here). SI Bus is not such ahard concept - they already belong to a different union. Politically, the entire idea was killed by one man in Albany - even I felt Mr Silver changed the rules in the middle of the game.
The melodrama of S.I. secession did not play out all the way. Former Governor Cuomo refused to outright squelch the idea despite hard city opposition.
It was Giuliani's election that really killed S.I. secession for the time being. If the next Mayor of NYC reverses Giuliani's policies and resumes the former isolation of S.I., expect to see secession advocacy re-emerge.
As to the question of whether other parts of the city might want to secede if S.I. does, remember that parts of eastern Queens (including, significantly, predominently minority parts of the borough) also were interested in secession.
It would completely change the NYC-NYS political equation.
Nassau County used to be part of Queens in the 19th century. Queens County Courts used to be in Mineola where the Nassau Courts are now!!
The SARGE'S homepage
The plan for Staten Island secession assumed that the state would force NYC to continue to subsidize Staten Island. Staten Island would get some of the benefits of NYC's business tax base without the burden of its poor, and would charge high rates to place garbage at Fresh Kills while getting city water and the use of the city jail for peanuts. Also part of the deal would be SI residents being allowed to work for NYC agencies, but not the other way around. Finally, NYC would be forced to assume most of the debt based on property tax assessments, not income. Since Staten Island already benefits from a deal which gives it lower assemssment than much of the city on the same value, the debt provision would lock that in.
Anyone would secede under those terms. Leave the poor of Browsville to pay for themselves. Manhattan could have the lowest taxes and best service in the city if separate -- why should they pay for the Bronx if Nassau and Staten Island don't have to.
On the other hand, if Staten Island were willing to secede on even terms we should let them. They'd be worse off, marginally, and we'd be better off, marginally.
On the other hand, if Staten Island were willing to secede on even terms we should let them. They'd be worse off, marginally, and we'd be better off, marginally
No both would be worse off.
Staten Island would be worse off because property taxes would have to go up significantly.
NYC would be worse off because the loss of Staten Island would lower the City's share to about 38% of the state population, tipping the balance of power. Don't think the City didn't know this when they opposed secession.
This last would be exacerbated if Staten Island secession encouraged Eastern Queens to secede as well.
But, hey, who said freedom was free?
Please remember prior to the charter revsion back when the first RTS buses came out, the only way to get Staten Island to vote for the new buses was guaranteeing 17% of them come to Staten Island.
Now with the new system, S.I. can't hold up any vote on anything, they do not have a large enough voice (No Senate here).
Thanks for pointing out the Charter Revision changes.
The old Board of Estimate had its problems, but killing its power wasn't great either.
The City of Greater New York (the enlarged City from 1898 on) had a kind of federalism which was important with such a diverse population. Now even more power is concentrated in Manhattan. This is difficult in a city which is more populous than many states.
The old system was supposed to disadvantage Brooklyn. The evidence suggests that Brooklyn is even worse off now. The other boroughs gang up against it on everything, since many of the people who live there are poor, and many of those representing the borough are fools.
This is true to some extent. Except for the census count, The Bronx is really considered as part of Manhattan (certainly in districting matters). Queens was always almost 'separate' from the city on many of it's local politics. And Staten Island even more so than Queens. So, in some sense Brooklyn has always had to fend for itself for a 'fair share of the pie'.
Doug aka BMTman
Brooklyn is historically unique in that, though it was not the only incorporated city to be absorbed into the City of Greater New York (I believe LIC was a city at consolidation--Williamsburgh had been a city before being annexed by Brooklyn) it was a full-fledged city in its own right which, with the right government, might have remained a significant rival of NYC.
Because of this Brooklyn had the most to lose from consolidation and I think history has borne out that fear. It's hindsight but not inaccurate to say that it should have baked its own pie instead of begging for a slice of New York's.
I think it would only affect the way the subsides are distributed. As all those agencies are subsidiaries of the MTA, a state agency, I don't see much of a problem. Of more concern would be police and fire protection. Basically, infrastructure would be covered under 'already paid for', but employees and equipment would be another story. One idea, if I remember correctly, was to contract with the city for these service, and to charge them for use of the landfill!
-Hank
It fell apart years ago!!!
Why does everyone just assume New Jersey wants Staten Island? :-)
Maybe what would be better would be to have the MTA be truly metropolitan and include New Jersey. I know that suggesting a bi-state agency is probably heresy but it's probably time that this is done, perhaps by combining the MTA and Port Authority into one big agency.
What would that accomplish? One bigger bureaucracy instead of two smaller ones? Better to leave them separate and get them to talk to each other as needed.
Seccession of portions of states to form other states is expressly forbidden by the constitution, without an act of congress. The one exception to this being West Virginia, which was essentially a reward for the 9 counties that rebelled against the CSA.
-Hank
Texas also has that privilege - the act that gave it statehood also permits it to divide into as many as five states. I don't know of any other exceptions.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Maybe the area south of I-84 should join New Jersey. The area north of I-84 hates us anyway, and NJ is much less corrupt and better run than New York State. And, it would be a good deal for NJ, because the area south of I-84 is slightly wealtheir than NJ.
Well, then you have a large state which is 90% in one metro area. This seems great now, but would it have seemed great in 1975?
I think it is a better idea than forming an additional state, though. Imagine New Yorkers electing politicians to serve them in ... Trenton!
(Entire state in one Metro Area). The idea that NYC benefits from being on a different economic cycle than Upstate NY has been discredited. Yes, Downstate money has flowed Upstate in the past few years, as we have boomed and they have stagnated. But in the early 1990s, the opposite was NOT true. It seems that most of New York State's money is collected in NYC, but the rest of the state gets a "fair share" of it. When NYC is down, there is no one else to pick up the slack.
Besides, when our economy is up we get less state and federal funding because we don't need it. But when it is down, we get less because we don't deserve it.
It seems that most of New York State's money is collected in NYC.
This is incorrect. Yet it is an article of faith with many New Yorkers.
Actually, the city's share of the state's PRIVATE economy is up at a post-1970, over 60 percent. Then you'd have to add it the earnings of suburbanites that depend on the spending of commuters.
More specifically, the income that supports the state's tax base is concentrated in Manhattan, although the people earning the income may live on Long Island (or in Brooklyn). When that goes down, there is little else out there to pick up the slack. The independent suburban economic base has shunk (Gruman's about gone, not too many Baymen and Potato farms left) and Upstate has about the weakest economy in the U.S.
That's something we wonder about all the time. Unemployment is low, the population is aging, and no one wants to move or start a business there. It's certainly cheap enough. Housing prices are 50 percent below the U.S. average.
The independent suburban economic base has shunk (Gruman's about gone, not too many Baymen and Potato farms left)
You're describing a Long Island of 15-20 years ago.
Ten years ago, I knew high-tech ex-Grumman people who were moving to North Carolina to get work. Now firms such as Symbol Technologies, Periphonics and Computer Associates are snapping them up, and more.
The City's hard core of manufacturing jobs sharnk, while public sector employment grew. The NYC people who hate Giuliani should be aware that he is the first NYC mayor since the glory days of Tammany who's made a significant effort to reverse this trend.
The scary thing is that, with the advantages of a great natural seaport and manufacturing center thrown away, the City is frighteningly dependent on Alan Greenspan's good health and good mood.
If Wall Street goes south big time (in any sense of the phrase) see what happens to the Great Regional Economic Engine.
Wake up and smell the clams and potatoes.
BTW, if you wonder (a) how dependent NYC still is on welfare economics and by implication (b) where the money for the Second Avenue Subway is, consider this statistic:
In April 1999 (the most recent month for which I have figures) New York City spent $1,131,527,854 on Medicaid for 1,776,596 eligibles. That's in one month. I find the figure interesting because it answers part of the quesion of where the Second Avenue Subway is. That's enough to pay for a mile of that super-expensive subway line every month with enough money left over for tax and tip.
If Wall Street goes south (both literally and figuratively) NYC will still be able to keep it's head above water. Two reasons: (1) Tourism, which is something Upstate and suburban communities don't have and (2) the motion-picture/television industry. Being the cosmopolitan town that it is, NYC is a natural "back-drop" for almost any film scenerio, whether it be action, comedy or drama. Also, the entertainment facilities -- sports teams, theatre, ballet, opera, etc., etc. -- will continue to be draws for generations as they have been for past generations.
About those high-tech firms on LI: while many have picked up some of those laid-off by Grumman, et al, they put to work less than had been laid off and furthermore those firms you listed are based on the fragile day-to-day ever changing world of computer technology that is almost as predictable as a horse race. Those hired today could be laid off tomorrow. It's happenned before. It'll happen again.
Doug aka BMTman
How the Tourism and Movie businesses in New York City do if the CIty needs to count on them depends a lot on the wisdom of the next Mayor.
If he (or she?--Ruth Messinger, maybe) allows crime to rise significantly it could put a damper on the tourist trade. If that same new mayor, fishing for revenues, starts to squeeze the entertainment industries for fees and taxes, they'll look elsewhere as well.
Haven't you seen those movies with scenes that are supposed to be in New York, but the subway trains look suspiciously like Toronto?
People overestimate the effect of the stock market on the city. It just that the 1987 stock market crash coincided with information technology that wiped out hundreds of thousands of jobs in NYC. It won't happen this time around. In the prior Wall St downturn (1981-1983) the city lost about 20,000 jobs, not 300,000. Look for that to happen again. I'm more worried that rising real estate values (and subway crowding) will choke us off. That killed us in the 1980s too. People are starting to leave because they can't afford it.
Paul is right about Medicaid, but wrong about Giuliani cutting it back. He tried, but the Medicaid machine is too powerful. If you add government employment and government-dependent health care and social services employment, its been going up. More money for the Democratic "non-profit" patronage base, less for schools and trains.
The state and local taxes used to fund "matching payments" for Medicaid aborb 2.6 percent of all the income earned by city residents. The national average is 1.0 percent. Even though much of the cost is shifted to the city, Medicaid taxes still absorb 2.0 percent of the money earned by residents of the rest of the state, placing in third behind NYC and Delaware. It's 1.1 percent in NJ -- that's why its taxes are lower.
Equally unfortuantely, the rest of the state has a Republican patronage machine to match the "social and health services -- industrial complex" in the city. The best paid people in the rest of the state work for state and local government, and there's a lot of them. Local government is an average share of the economy in NYC, a
huge share in the rest of the state.
No one is willing to say that local government in the rest of the stae is overpaid and overstaffed. No Democrat is willing to say that the reason the city spends so little on everything else and collects so much in taxes is that it spends so much on Medicaid. And no one understands why we can't afford the Second Ave.
I have some charts I'd love to see Rudy and Hillary answer some questions about.
[No one is willing to say that local government in the rest of the stae is overpaid and overstaffed. No Democrat is willing to say that the reason the city spends so little on everything else and collects so much in taxes is that it spends so much on Medicaid. And no one understands why we can't afford the Second Ave.]
All of which goes to show that it was unfortunate that the city did *not* go bankrupt during the fiscal crisis of the 1970s. Had it gone belly-up, some sort of federal control board would have taken over municipal finances. And chances are, the board would have been dominated by anti-urban Sunbelt types. Why would that be good? Well, the board members wouldn't have been subject to local political pressures - they could have told the Upper West Side to jump in a lake - and therefore could have dismantled the city's social services and health care system. Today there'd be plenty of money for the Second Avenue Subway. There'd be no such p.c. nonsense as a city "Department of Homeless Services," for Christ's sakes. And there might well be office towers and Intel chip fabs on the sites that used to be occupied by municipal hospitals. If only ...
[If he (or she?--Ruth Messinger, maybe) allows crime to rise significantly it could put a damper on the tourist trade. If that same new mayor, fishing for revenues, starts to squeeze the entertainment industries for fees and taxes, they'll look elsewhere as well.]
How does a Mayor 'allow crime to rise'?
One of the biggest misconceptions is that more Police or the re-distribution of Police forces can PREVENT crime. Realistically, most Police arrive on the scene AFTER a crime has been committed and rarely deter criminality.
The reason for the drop in crime is that people -- THE CITIZENS --decided to do something about crime. This means that those neighborhoods that were heavily crime-ridden have had one of three things happen: (1) the people in those areas decided to take charge of their lives -- meaning raising their kids to (a) respect other peoples' property and (b) stay away from drugs and other social degenerative activities; (2) those who had brought those neighborhoods down have been supplanted by new immigrants who are law abiding and raise their children with higher standards than those of the previous generation; the economics of the past 10 years has made it possible for those who tended to be less fortunate (and thus resort to crime) to find work that was at less more than transient (that is now the work of those from South and Central America now).
Again, a Police presence does help, but the large percentage of crime dropping is largely related to both social and economic factors.
Doug aka BMTman
Well, Doug,
Policing is now bring done in New York under a diffrent theory than it had been done since about the '60s or so. The '70s-'80s model (oversimplified) said that the role of the police is essentially to clean up after crime rather attempt deterrence, because broad social and demographic issues are what drive crime.
I would point out that c.1990 one of the major proponents of that theory was projecting that, if we thought crime then was bad then, wait 10 years when, according to his projections of the number of individuals in crime prone groups (esp. teenagers and young adults) the crime rate in 2000 would make the crime rate in 1990 (2200 murders p.a. in NY, remember?) look like a picnic.
But we shall see. In a bit over a year, two at most, we'll have a new Mayor in NYC. If he/she goes back to the police model used through Dinkins (incl. ignoring QOL, petty crime, low-level drug dealers, failing to frisk those apprehended for such crime, not holding local commanders responsible for crime in their precincts, etc.) and the crime rate does not rise, you may be right.
On the other hand, Dinkins put a lot of extra cops on the street. I think Giuliani benefitted from this. And lets not forget that crime all over the country has dropped.
Dinkins put extra warm bodies on the street. This was the kind of spend more money, add quantity but not quality policy that has gotten bigger government advocates in trouble for four decades.
[In April 1999 (the most recent month for which I have figures) New York City spent $1,131,527,854 on Medicaid for 1,776,596 eligibles. That's in one month. I find the figure interesting because it answers part of the quesion of where the Second Avenue Subway is. That's
enough to pay for a mile of that super-expensive subway line every month with enough money left over for tax and tip.]
I've got something else that'll knock your socks off. NYC spends more on indigent health care than does the _entire state of California_, which has something like five times the population (and probably a higher percentage of poor people). I still cannot accept the fact that NYC has 13 public hospitals, as compared to one each in Chicago and Los Angeles.
I do disagree to some extent with your statement about the city's economic dependency on Wall Street. It is true that the securities industry is responsible for a disproportionate share of municipal revenues, thanks to its high salaries. But Wall Street accounts for a surprisingly low percentage of city jobs, even taking the multiplier effect into account, and the number of jobs has risen quite modestly even as the Dow heads upward. As a result, major cutbacks on Wall Street would not cause a dramatic increase in unemployment. City revenues would be hit hard, but given the wasteful spending on health care, I'm not so sure that would be a bad idea.
[Upstate has about the weakest economy in the U.S. ... That's something we wonder about all the time. Unemployment is low, the population is aging, and no one wants to move or start a business there. It's certainly cheap enough. Housing prices are 50 percent below the U.S. average.]
Nobody seems to know exactly why Upstate is so troubled. Most likely it's a combination of factors.
Which leads me to a question -- what was in the original MTA plan, and what was actually built? How did we do with THAT promise? Before I spend a lunch hour on it, does anyone know the answer?
I have part of the answer (a summary of the 1968 "Program for Action) at home as part of the history of the Independent System I'm wrapping up. It's "subway centric" (I don't list what the proposed improvements to the LIRR, Penn Central, LIRR, Erie-Lackawanna or the airports were(remember we're talking 1968 here) but it shouldn't take too long to outline those other things as well. I expect to post this tonight.
--Mark
(I expect to post tonite). Thanks. I actually just returned from the Library with information from "1968-73: The Ten Year Plan at the Halfway Point." I'll let you post first if you have the orignial plan, then add on.
The first impressionis the MTA delivered less to the city relative to its promises, but it had promised more. Then again, the city threw in the TBTA and its surpluses.
The transit advocates should adopt a simple battle cry -- do what you promised in 1968! If the expansion continues full bent for 3-4 more years (or ten years with a "normal" recession in between), and we reach the employment level of 1968, it might even be possible.
I pulled this right from the IND History document I'm wrapping up. Comments/corrections are welcome. I would love to SEE the actual Plan document; I compiled this summary based off an old copy of ERA's Headlights.
The Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Authority (what the MTA was called when it was first formed in 1968) released its "Program for Action" on February 28th, 1968. The program had two phases: phase I considered projects for immediate action and would run over a ten year period and phase II was to be carried out at the completion of phase I. The plan considered all aspects of regional travel, affecting the subway, the LIRR, Penn Central, Erie-Lackawanna and New Haven railroads, as well as the regional airports.
A summary of phase I:
· Aggressive completion of the 63rd Street tunnel (at the time this project was already planned) as well as the connections to the IND 6th Ave line and the BMT's Broadway Line.
· A super-express bypass for the IND Queens Blvd line, running along the LIRR main line that would leave the Queens Blvd line at 41st Ave and return to the Queens Blvd line in Forest Hills. This one-track line would provide additional express service in the peak direction.
· A new subway line would divert from the IND Queens Blvd line in Elmhurst, Queens and run along the Long Island Expressway to Fresh Meadows, serving northeastern Queens. This would be a two-track line.
· A new subway line would divert from the IND Queens Blvd Line at the Van Wyck stub at Hillside Ave and run along the LIRR Atlantic Branch ROW to Springfield Blvd, serving southeast Queens. This line would also be two tracks. (This line was actually built as far as Parsons Blvd and Archer Ave, the terminal of today's E, J and Z trains, and opened in 1988).
· The Second Avenue subway from 34th St to the Bronx, with a connection to the 63rd St tunnel. The portion of the line from 63rd St, Manhattan to 138th St, the Bronx, would be built as two tracks, with provisions to expand it to four tracks "easily". The line would continue from 138th St along the ROW of the former NY, Westchester & Boston railroad to Dyre Ave. The stations along the Dyre Ave line would be restored to their original widths (they were "expanded" somewhat to accommodate IRT trains). The junction at East 180th Street, as well as the approach of the IRT White Plains Road line to East 180th St would be reconstructed to allow cross-platform transfers between White Plains Road and Second Avenue Trains. There would be a connection with the IRT Pelham line at Whitlock Ave and stations would be shaved back for the larger IND/BMT subway cars. The IRT Pelham Line would terminate at Hunts Point Avenue.
· The IRT Division would see its Nostrand Avenue line extended along Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn to Avenue U. (In 1968, Kings Plaza (Brooklyn's first "suburban type" shopping mall at approximately the same location) did not yet exist).
· The IRT New Lots Ave line would be extended southerly to Flatlands Ave and Linwood Street. The line would run at ground level. In conjunction with this and the IRT Nostrand Ave line extension, the Rogers Ave junction would be reconstructed to increase capacity.
· The purchase of 500 high-speed subway cars equipped with air conditioning.
· Expansion of yards and shops to accommodate the increase in the size of the fleet.
· Rehabilitating SIRT and obtaining new equipment for the line. But since the SIRT was still owned by the B&O at this time, the MTA would have to buy it from the B&O, or figure out some other method of ensuring long term operation of the line.
· Constructing an LIRR spur to JFK to allow a one seat ride from Manhattan. Also provide the ability to "change at Jamaica". The line would run 3.5 miles from the LIRR Atlantic Branch to the terminals. The goal was a 20 minute run time from Manhattan.
· 350 new MU cars for the LIRR.
· Commencement of a high-platform project on the LIRR. Improvements to the infrastructure (track, plant, signals). Expansions to shops and yards. Modernizing Jamaica Station. Improvements at Penn Station and Flatbush Avenue. Electrifying the Port Jefferson branch to Northport. Electrifying the Main Line to Pinelawn.
· A new Metropolitan Transportation Center (MTC) in the vicinity of 48th St and 3rd Ave. The MTC would facilitate easy intermodal transfers between the LIRR, the Second Avenue line, the IRT Lexington Ave Line at Grand Central as well as Grand Central Terminal.
· 144 new MUs for the New Haven Line. Improved signals and electrification (conversion to 60 cycles). Overhaul the current electric cars (current meaning 1968). Construction of high level platforms. Rehabbing 100 of the 4400 series cars.
· 130 new electric cars for the Penn Central, constructing high level platforms and extending electrification on the Harlem Division from North White Plains to Brewster (28 miles). Building a 3rd track to serve as an express between Mount Vernon and North White Plains.
· New equipment for the NY portion of the Erie-Lackawanna (Port Jervis Line); study the feasibility of direct service to Penn Station with the use of dual-powered locomotives.
· Airport development at Republic (Long Island) and Spring Valley in Rockland County. A new airport for northwest Westchester. The airport at Republic would reduce congestion at LGA and JFK by diverting private aircraft to this location.
· Transportation Centers (I don't know what this means) at Pearl River and Orangeburg (Rockland County) and Tarrytown and White Plains (Westchester).
A summary of phase II:
· Completion of the Second Avenue subway from 34th Street south to the Financial District along Water Street to Whitehall Street.
· A midtown distribution system along 57th, 48th, 42nd and 33rd Sts, using some kind of guided systems (ala Morgantown) to link terminals, offices and other travel points.
· Extension of the subway east of Jamaica and razing the El along Jamaica Avenue.
· Replacing the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx with a new subway line running adjacent to the New Haven Line ROW along Park Avenue. (The MTA saved a heck of a lot of money when it replaced the 3rd Ave El with "extended BX-55" service in 1973.)
· Extending the Pelham Bay Line to Co-op City in the Bronx.
· Extending the IND Concourse Line to White Plains Road, providing easy transfers to the IRT White Plains Road line.
· 500 more new subway cars, air conditioned.
· More shop and yard improvements.
· Continue the rehab project on SIRT.
· Electrifying the LIRR Port Jefferson and Ronkonkoma branches to their terminals. Additional station and signal improvements. More MU cars and dual-powered locomotives.
· Extending LIRR service from Flatbush Ave to a lower Manhattan terminal in the vicinity of Broad St. It would run under the east River to Canal Street and turn south under Manhattan either paralleling or using the Nassau St loop to Broad St. (Can you imagine LIRR cars sitting in the decrepit Chambers St station??)
· Electrifying the Hudson Line to Peekskill. Modernizing signals. Additional cars.
· A new station at 149th St (Bronx) to provide easy iunterchanges between the Penn Central, the New Haven and the subway.
· Another Long island airport and an airport in southwest Dutchess County.
--Mark
SOME NOTES ON WHAT WAS FINISHED AND WHAT WASN'T, BASED IN PART ON THE "HALF WAY" POINT REPORT IN 1973
FOR THE CITY:
A summary of phase I:
· Aggressive completion of the 63rd Street tunnel. BEING FINISHED NOW
· A super-express bypass for the IND Queens Blvd line.
KILLED IN LIEU OF A CONNECTION TO THE QUEENS LINE
· A new subway line serving Northeastern Queens.
PUSHED BACK TO PHASE II BY 1973, THEN FORGOTTEN
· A new subway line servings outheast Queens.
(This line was actually built as far as Parsons Blvd and Archer Ave).
· The Second Avenue subway from 34th St to the Bronx, with a connection to the 63rd St tunnel. NOT EVEN PROPOSED S. OF 63RD ST
· Nostrand Avenue line extended along Flatbush Avenue in Brooklyn to Avenue U. PUSHED BACK TO PHASE II BY 1973, THEN FORGOTTON
· The IRT New Lots Ave line extended to Flatlands Ave and Linwood PUSHED BACK TO PHASE II BY 1973, THEN FORGOTTEN
· The purchase of 500 high-speed subway cars equipped with air conditioning. WE GOT THE R44/46
· Expansion of yards and shops to accommodate the increase in the size of the fleet.
· Rehabilitating SIRT and obtaining new equipment for the line.
IT WAS BOUGHT AND REHABBED
· Constructing an LIRR spur to JFK to allow a one seat ride from Manhattan. Also provide the ability to "change at Jamaica".
ONE SEAT RIDE DROPPED, BUT IT MIGHT GET BUILT.
For the city -- not much, and everything we get is in Queens or on Staten Island.
FOR THE SUBURBS
· 350 new MU cars for the LIRR. BY 1973 THEY BOUGHT 850 AND REPLACED THE ENTIRE FLEET
· Commencement of a high-platform project on the LIRR
ALL DONE BY 1973
Modernizing Jamaica Station. Improvements at Penn Station and Flatbush Avenue. PENN MODERNIZED. NOT THE OTHERS
Electrifying the Port Jefferson branch to Northport. Electrifying the Main Line to Pinelawn. NOT DONE AS FAR AS I KNOW
· A new Metropolitan Transportation Center (MTC) in the vicinity of 48th St and 3rd Ave.
NOW PROPOSED LIRR TO GCT
· 144 new MUs for the New Haven Line. Construction of high level platforms. Rehabbing 100 of the 4400 series cars. ALL DONE OR UNDERWAY BY 1973; NEW HAVEN LINE PURCHASED TO STATE LINE
· 130 new electric cars for the Penn Central, constructing high level platforms and extending electrification on the Harlem Division from North White Plains to Brewster (28 miles). ALL DONE
Building a 3rd track to serve as an express between Mount Vernon and North White Plains. THEY BROUGHT IT UP AGAIN A FEW YEARS AGO: LOCAL OPPOSITION
· New equipment for the NY portion of the Erie-Lackawanna (Port Jervis Line); study the feasibility of direct service to Penn Station with the use of dual-powered locomotives. STILL STUDYING
· Airport development at Republic (Long Island) and Spring Valley in Rockland County. A new airport for northwest Westchester. The airport at Republic would reduce congestion at LGA and JFK by diverting private aircraft to this location. DO THEY STILL OWN REPUBLIC AND STEWART? NOTHING MUCH HAPPENED OUT THERE.
· Transportation Centers (I don't know what this means) at Pearl River and Orangeburg (Rockland County) and Tarrytown and White Plains (Westchester).
SUMMARY: LOOKS LIKE THE SUBURBS GOT MOST OF THIS. FOR TWENTY YEARS, THEY HAD ALL THE NEW CARS. BUT SINCE NONE HAVE BEEN BOUGHT SINCE...
A summary of phase II:
· Completion of the Second Avenue subway from 34th Street south to the Financial District along Water Street to Whitehall Street.
THIS WAS MOVED TO PHASE ONE BY 1973; THEN IT DIED
· A midtown distribution system along 57th, 48th, 42nd and 33rd Sts.
48TH ST WAS SUPPOSED TO HAVE BEEN FIRST. NOTHING HAPPENED
· Extension of the subway east of Jamaica and razing the El along Jamaica Avenue. WELL, THEY TORE IT DOWN
· Replacing the 3rd Ave El in the Bronx with a new subway line.
THIS HAS DISAPPEARED, ALONG WITH THE NEIGHBORHOOD
· Extending the Pelham Bay Line to Co-op City in the Bronx.
NO ONE TALKS ABOUT THAT ONE ANYMORE
· Extending the IND Concourse Line to White Plains Road.
GONE AND FORGOTTEN
· 500 more new subway cars, air conditioned.
NOT UNTIL THE 1980S
· More shop and yard improvements.
· Continue the rehab project on SIRT.
FOR THE SUBURBS
· Electrifying the LIRR Port Jefferson and Ronkonkoma branches to their terminals. Additional station and signal improvements.
THEY DID RONKONKOMA, NOT PORT JEF
More MU cars and dual-powered locomotives.
· Extending LIRR service from Flatbush Ave to a lower Manhattan terminal in the vicinity of Broad St.
THEY ARE STUDYING THIS ONE. PERHAPS THEY WILL CONCLUDE THAT THEY NEED TO BUILD ANOTHER 2-LEVEL TUNNEL TO REPLACE THE MANAHATTAN BRIDGE. OR PERHAPS THEY'LL JUST DO SUBURBAN SERVICE
· Electrifying the Hudson Line to Peekskill.
DIDN'T DO IT
· A new station at 149th St (Bronx) to provide easy iunterchanges between the Penn Central, the New Haven and the subway.
THEY TALK ABOUT THIS EVERY NOW AND THEN
· Another Long island airport and an airport in southwest Dutchess County.
GONE
NOTE: IN 1973, THEY ALSO PROPOSED A LOWER EAST SIDE LOOP SUBWAY FROM EAST BROADWAY (THE F) TO 14TH ST (THE L) THAT RESURFACED AS PART OF THE RPA PROPOSAL.
IN PHASE II, ONCE AGAIN THE SUBURBS GOT SOMETHING (ONE ELECTRIFICIATION). THE CITY GOT A RESTORATION OF THE SYSTEM AFTER IT WAS ALLOWED TO FALL APART. LOOKS LIKE THE LIRR TO GCT AND THE 2ND AVENUE SUBWAY WERE BOTH IN PHASE I. I SAY THEY GO TOGETHER.
I have a Department of Planning brochure from 1969 (they were giving them away when I got one in 1974) that shows the plan the Board of Estimate approved by that year. The plan is a little different from the version the previous year.
1. Instead of extending the Nostrand Avenue subway along Flatbush Ave., the line is extended along Nostrand itself to about Avenue W in Sheepshead Bay. There is also a Utica Avenue subway from Eastern Parkway to Avenue U/Kings Plaza.
2. Instead of an Elmhurst-Fresh Meadows line, there is a branch beyond 71st-Continental under Jewel Avenue to about Kissena Blvd. (I assume it would have used the existing yard portal at the south end of Flushing Meadows Park.)
3. There is no mention of extending beyond New Lots Avenue. Instead, the "L" would run along the Bay Ridge Branch from Broadway Junction to East Flatbush.
Just got back from a quick Montauk trip and used the LIRR to get out east ($20.50 r/t is cheaper than using the car!)
I noticed something peculiar on my return trip last night: the diesels have to go through a back and forth maneuvor over the tracks to switch over to a "Y" track that allows the single-headed loco to turn-around.
This seems an antiquated act, but I suppose with the limited-service at that terminal I can understand why.
BTW, I later found out from the conductor, that Montauk did at one time have a turn-table but it was removed eons ago.
Doug aka BMTman
The track maps that I have, going back to when the line first opened in 1895, don't show a turntable, just a wye.
What is the main difference between horsepower and torque.
I know that torque is the turning force of the wheels. Then what is horsepower.
horsepower is speed times force. Therefore, the horsepower
if you are standing still is 0, regardless of how much torque
is being exerted. speed times force also equals energy spent
per second (with a units conversion), that's why horsepower
is a unit of power, just like a kilowatt.
NO, Horsepower is a unit of power vastly inferior to the more logical Watt, even though HP was invented by the Watt's namesake, James Watt, inventor of the steam engine. power is equal to energy consumed per unit of time. Energy is the same as work which is force times distance. The horsepower is 33,000 Foot Pounds per Second. The Watt is ONE Joule (one Newton Meter) per Second or in electicity, one Volt Ampere.
NO, Horsepower is a unit of power vastly inferior to the more logical Watt, even though HP was
invented by the Watt's namesake, James Watt, inventor of the steam engine...
What do you mean NO? You said exactly what I said,
but in different words. Energy is work is force times distance.
Power is Energy over time, == force times distance over time ==
force times speed.
So the Watt is a nice decimal metric unit and the horsepower
is a dirty old British (now American) unit? How about a
slug-foot-cubit per fortnight cubed?
Eh, (no y sound, just e) it was late at the night, I wasn't ready to convert anything. If it wasn't the accepted formula, I just assumed it was wrong. Even though force distance/time (you can see the conversion right there!) to force speed is so easy.
I remember from eons ago (or so it seems) a day-long transit "show and tell" at the Hoboken Terminal called the Hoboken Festival.
Does this still go on? If so, when is it?
Thanks!
Chip
I went to one, my first and last in 1981. Now that you mention it, it would be fun.
They're not having it this year due to renovations at Hoboken. They had one last year and probably will have another one next year. It usually coincides with the national "Try Transit Week".
-Dave
This Brooklyn station (a/c/g lines) has some unusual qualities.
1) Anyone know why some of the exits are closed? One of the exits on the manhattan bound platform end is covered by wood, but there are holes you can peek through...there is equipment stored inside.
2) Also down on that side the walls change from the new red color scheme to the old white, with the very old looking Hoyt Bridge Street mural. Is this because of the station extension project? The main part of the station looks recently renovated, though, so why only part of the station?
3) There are panels in the walls, near the stairs, that appear to be filled in with concrete. They look like they used to be ticket windows, or some kind of concession stand? There is a silver door on the other side of fare control that appears to lead into the area behind this wall...any ideas?
Tickets were never sold on the IND!!! It must be the latter.
If you're talking about those dark blue windows with the "L"s on them, they were formerly display windows for Loesser's Department Store, the building is still there, but houses city offices.
Wayne
Part of the weirdness at Hoyt/Schermerhorn comes from the fact that the outer-most tracks (A1 & A2) were to be used for the never-completed Second Avenue Subway. They are primarily used tracks that lead into the long-abandoned Court Street station (which is currently the location of the NYC Transit Museum). Any cars from the exhibit would have to leave or enter past Hoyt-Schermerhorn.
Footnote: I have noticed, in the past week or so, that the soutern-most platform (by A1) has seen some activity of late that may suggest that a movie/TV company may be using it for filming. Anyone know anything about this?
Doug aka BMTman
It's entirely possible. The outer tracks at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, not to mention the station itself, are commonly used for movies, and the station itself has been disguised as other stations in films such as Nighthawks and The Warriors. It's a popular spot for filmmakers.
I remember in the old Aqueduct 'S' Special days, before the JFK Train to the Plane took over, there was a special booth that sold the special fare token. I forgot exactly where that was on the mezzanine but that may have been the booth to which you refer.
Please excuse my late-night stupor. I confused Hoyt (2/3 line) and Hoyt/Schermerhorn (a/c/g lines). Item 1 refers to H/S, and items 2 and 3 refer to Hoyt. Item 3 is the most interesting...now that we are taking about the same statin...any ideas out there?
PS - on H/S, did Loessers actually have windows in the station like the Astor Place Kmart?
And non subway related, but what happened to the Schraffts on Smith near Fulton street?
Original message:
This Brooklyn station (a/c/g lines) has some unusual qualities.
1) Anyone know why some of the exits are closed? One of the exits on the manhattan bound platform end is covered by wood, but there are holes you can peek through...there is equipment stored inside.
2) Also down on that side the walls change from the new red color scheme to the old white, with the very old looking Hoyt Bridge Street mural. Is this because of the station extension project? The main part of the station looks recently renovated, though, so why only part of the station?
3) There are panels in the walls, near the stairs, that appear to be filled in with concrete. They look like they used to be ticket windows, or some kind of concession stand? There is a silver door on the other side of fare control that appears to lead into the area behind this wall...any ideas?
Hoyt IRT station was originally very short. It was opened in 1907 or 1908. Sometime in the late 1920s or 1930s it was extended, as were many other IRT stations. A & S (which is now Macy's) used to have an entrance to the southbound platform long since closed.
Wayne
I got the "2" last night to finish all the lines in the Bronx on my way to
riding the entire system.
I was going to the Yankee game. Started at Franklin St. Rode
Uptown "9" to 14th st, changed to "2" Redbird 7765. Rode to
42nd, then walked over to "S" to GCT. At GCT took "5" express
to 238st in hopes of catching up to another "2". We didn't pass
another "2" all the way up, but as we approached 180th St., there
was a Dyre Ave "5" and a two pulling in ahead of us. The "5"
cleared and we pulled alongside the "2" which was waiting for us.
You guessed it, Redbird 7765! I got back on and we went ahead
of the "5" up to 241st. So much for an express.
I rode back down to 149th, then took "4" to Yankee Stadium.
By the way, why is the center track fenced in from 180th St to
238th on the "2"?
So now I am done with the Bronx. On to Brooklyn and the "G"!
I know what you mean. The #5 service in the Bronx stinks. They are probably 3/4 #4's per #5 trains. And 2/3 #2's per #5 lines.
One wonders why this is the situation.
N
Ha! I finished riding the whole subway last month! And this from never having been on the subway in the Bronx before May and in Queens before January. I also got to ride a few busses, like the New Flyer D60 Articulated on the Pelham Parkway. The only missing link for me is the Williamsburg Bridge.
Eastern Division (East New York Depot) as of 2-24-55
Type Series
B 2102-2200 except 2162,3,4
B 2300-2398 except 2351,2,3.2381,2,3.2384,5,6.
BX 2400-2439
BX 2460-2499
A 2600-2635 all singles
A 2700-2723 all singles
More to Follow....
Southern Division (Coney Island Depot)
This Depot is divided into two Divisions
Sec 1 Culver-Nassau Loop, West End.
Type Series
BX 2440-2459 also shared with CI Sec.2
B 2501-2599
A 2500 a single
A 2636-2699 also shared with CI Sec 2
A 2724-2749 all singles
B 2800-2899
More to Follow...
Southern Division (Coney Island Depot) as of 2-24-55
Sec 2 Brighton Beach, Brighton-Franklin
Type Series
B 2000-2101
B 2201-2299
A 2399 a single
BX 2440-2459 also shared with CI Sec 1
A 2636-2699 also shared with CI Sec 1
B 2750-2799 shared with CI Sec 1 but only under extreme conditions
More to Follow...
In addition to the previously mentioned cars there were 50 non-motorized trailers numbered 4000-4049. They were permanently coupled between 2 cars of the 2400 series to create a three car set.
They were coupled as follows.
2400-4000-2401
2440-4020-2441
2498-4049-2499
That's it, there is no more to follow
My memories of the standards begin around the time the R32's came in and the 2400's and up were transfered to "The East". The 4000 series trailers were long since gone (when the R27/30's were new?) and a 2600 series motor car with the motormans cabs removed were in the middle.
The 4000's or non-motorized trailers were indeed the first standards to be scrapped. All four parts of the roster were as of 2-24-55 which is about the time that the R-16's were starting to be delivered.
Anyone know when the "D" Triplex's were discontinued & what line were they last used on??
The SARGE-my homepage
According to this website, the last Triplex units were retired from service in 1965, off the West End line.
Jeff,
The D-types were last used on the West End in July of 1965, prior to that they were primarily on the Sea Beach and Brighton Express. During early 1964 the ABs that were on the West ENd were swapped with the D-types on the Sea Beach, with excess D-types also coming off the Brighton Line onto the West End.
Just for your info; the D-types were on the Brighton local before they went over to the express: reason- they did not have as good pickup as the ABs but had a better overall top speed. The frequent starts and stops of the local were better suited to the ABs.
Also, when the D-types were scrapped they were in top running condition, despite not being outshopped for at least 10 years prior! The TA just wanted to get rid of non-conventional equipment.
If you need more info concerning the ABs, D-types, Qs,or R1/9s, hopefully I can help.
One last tidbit: The R1s were in such bad shape at the end the TA thought about scrapping them before the remaining ABs, as a matter of fact the TA was having such problems during the mid 1960s that the ABs that were on the scrap track of the Sea Beach, already marked with a large "S" on the front were placed back into service for awhile.
They sure don't make 'em like they used to!
Mike H
Amen! And the three remaining sets of Triplex were still running strong last October, easily reaching 45MPH along Fourth Avenue.
Wayne
...or about three times as fast as your average R-68.
You can say that again!
I still say that retiring the Triplexes at the young age of 37-38 was one of the biggest blunders the TA ever made. They could have lasted well into the 1970s, possible even the early 80s, and would have laughed at the prospect of deferred maintenance, having gotten by with very little of it.
IIRC, the IND was brought to its knees in August of 1966 when the R-1/9s began dropping like flies. 32 R-16s were loaned to the GG line, at which time those BMT standards on the scrap line were given an eleventh-hour stay of execution and returned to revenue service with their S labels painted over. By early 1967, the crisis had eased as the R-38s were being delivered, and the R-16s were returned to the BMT.
AS has been said many times here, they don't make 'em like they used to...
Yes INDEED! On the final leg of our Fantrip aboard the Triplex, we headed up the Broadway Express tracks. Between 34th Street and Times Square, we passed an R68 "N" train as if it were standing still. Quite a few of the wags up in the front car (where I had stationed myself) pointed this out and had a good laugh at the Hippo as it lumbered along. The T/O, fully versed in his vintage equipment, kept the throttle at a steady 35 MPH as we breezed by.
Wayne
How fast did it go between Union Square and 34th St? If the Triplexes had a slow acceleration rate, it would take longer to get up to speed. Of course, you can gauge the speed by that marvelous bull and pinion gear whine.
Probably between 35 and 40 MPH in that stretch, an "F" on the Bull Gears, maybe a quarter-tone below "F". They ARE sluggish getting up to speed, but once they get there, they really go.
36th-to-Pacific...what a thrill that was.
Wayne
Given the fact that the Triplexes didn't accelerate rapidly, how did they stack up in any of the East River tunnels? Did they tend to lose speed going uphill? The BMT standards certainly did. In the 14th St. tunnel, their bull and pinion gears would drop as low as B below middle C (all the way down from Ab above middle C) by the time the train reached First Ave.
No doubt about it - I'm going to have to see and hear for myself someday.
The Triplexes were heavy and powerful. Going by memory, so I can be corrected--the Triplexes were about 10% heavier unloaded than the Standards, but they developed 200 HP per truck v. 160 for the Standards, plus the Standards often carried a single trailer, so a full train of Triplexes developed 25% to 43% more HP than a Standard.
The Triplexes started slowly (but not that slowly) and once they got moving watch out. When the Triplexes passed a [C] (for coast) you could hardly feel the diffrence. I don't believe they were as affected by uphills nearly as much as other equipment.
It's like comparing a sports car to a 16 wheeler. The sports car takes off lots faster, but which makes you more nervous when it's looming up fast in your rear view mirror?
Yes, there is such a thing as momentum. When something as massive as a Triplex gets moving, woe to anyone or anything that gets in its way! That goes for semis, too. Momentum can help when going uphill as well.
Didn't the Triplexes have four motors each? You would think so, given the fact that one of those behemoths weighed in at 104-106 tons. According to Brian Cudahy in Under the Sidewalks of New York, an unloaded train of four Triplexes weighed in at about 416 tons while an equivalent 8-car train of BMT standards came in at 380 tons.
Speaking of coasting, one of the nice things about prewar equipment was the fact that you always knew when the motorman reapplied power. Those bull and pinion gears would sing out a resounding corresponding pitch relative to how fast the train was moving at that point.
Didn't the Triplexes have four motors each?
Yes, per three-section unit. The end trucks had two motors apiece, the two trucks beneath the articulation joints were trailers. I just checked this detail on the original set--I see no reason why this would be different on the production units.
So a full train of Triplexes developed 3200 horsepower (16 motors x 200 HP each).
I think I have to amend my HP figures on the Standards. I rechecked my notes, and I have to interpret my thinking when I made them (about 40 years ago) but they say the BMT Standards had "2 motors, 280 HP." I'm 90%+ certain this is 140 HP per motor--I had earlier said 160 HP.
I saw some of the Triplexes at the Subway Museum in Brooklyn. They were impressive looking and they brought back memories of childhood 45-50 years ago. Some of the trains they have running now, I don't know what you call them. They're silver and ugly as hell. I rode one on the Sea Beach line and told a conductor that they looked for crap. He agreed with me. What a waste.
Must have been the R-68s, if they were 75 feet long. If they were loping along, they DEFINITELY were R-68s. Some of my pet names for them are hippopotamus and beached whale.
You can't miss the slant R-40s. They're quick.
Say, Mike, have you seen the book New York Transit Memories? It's chock full of photos of subway and el trains, streetcars, LIRR trains, and buses from bygone years. Included is a photo on the Astoria line dated July 5, 1963 which includes one train apiece of BMT standards and Triplexes; the Triplex train is marked as a 3. Perhaps the Triplexes started to show up on the West End prior to 1964; I had been under the impression that they weren't used on the West End until the R-32s began arriving.
Is that book at the transit museum?
That's a good question. I would imagine it is. I've seen it at Caboose Hobbies in Denver, and while I've contemplated buying it, I haven't done so yet. There is also a photo of a heap of BMT standards awaiting scrapping.
Hello all..
I figured those who went on the Newark Subway field trips would be interested- I cleaned up the Newark Subway section and added a brief history and a station by station guide (Thanks to Peggy D.) The brief history includes a list of the services that once used the city subway (8 streetcar routes total).
Enjoy,
-Dave
Good work, Dave. Many thanks!
A few weeks ago we discussed the TA's new "TEAM TRANSIT" patch that was supposed to be distributed to all employees. I have yet to see any employees wearing theirs. In addition to system-wide patches, however, many lines shops and units design their own logos for patches, shirts and caps. They are supposed to help build "esprit de corps" . Many are quite good but some seem to miss the mark. Here is the one designed for Concourse Shop a few years ago (before I was there). As you will see, the design was not well thought out. The correct and incorrect versions may be interchanged, however, depending on how you feel about the R-68s.
Concourse Patch
That is one sick-looking R68...
-Hank
A few years ago every line had a baseball cap with logo. For example "E" was the line of excellence, "R" for reliable, a sort of morale booster for the crews. The M had a logo not dis-similar to Fresh Pond Bus Depot. One of the motormen (who still works there) designed it. Then all of a sudden some bureaucrat banned them and wanted the standardised MTA cap worn by all.
The ban supposedly came into being because people were wearing the hats on the wrong lines, thereby confusing customers who saw things like an B train with D hats. Rather than confuse the paying public, much easier to ban the hats.
Steve, I got ONE patch. I have TEN shirts and TWO jackets. Which one do I put it on and what are the odds you see me that day?
Which patch, which shirts and which jackets?
I still have hats from the E, F, G and R lines alond with 40 some-odd other caps. dozens of Tee Shirts, Roadeo jackets and patches from every shop in the system. I'll never run out of jackets or caps or Tees since every year I get bags of them from RTO and DCE. Speaking of bags , I also have 3 or 4 canvas gym bags with various TA logos too. BTW - that's not to mention mugs, knives, portable radios and even fire extinguishers with the TA logo. No wonder I can't get into my garage.
No wonder I can't find any fire extinguishers on R-68 cars anymore.
Sorry to disappoint you Harry but they are not those fire extiguishers. The Division of Car Equipment gave out home fire extinguishers with the TA logo on it as a quarterly safety award. If you can't find a fire extinuisher on an R-68, you'd have to look to vandals or maybe some of your union brothers and sisters, I'm afraid.
The atomic symbol in the background is very 1964-World's Fair-ish. though if they went back to the 1964 TA logo patches as well, it wouldn't bother me.
In addition to adding three new stations to the list at MVM World. I have also switched to a white background (adjusting colors accordingly) and I've decided to start using the train "bullets" they are downloaded directly from the TA site. Please visit the site and make any additions you want to.
Also, the D train is hereby awarded the title of MVM Express, having more MVMs on it's route then any other (unless you count the nighttime 4) with 4. The B, F, Q, 5 and 6 are all tied for second at 3.
If you ask the right people, you can use the bullets from this site, and keep them on your own server. Your site will load faster (not that it's slow now)
-Hank
The city of Kenosha, Wi has updated its page for the Harborpark project and included a route map for the streetcar route that is being built this summer, a drawing of the streecar barn that is also under construction and a link to this site for the detailed information about the streecar project.
The people at city hall put this together and used one of daves pictures. I will tell them they need to provide credit to him
http://www.execpc.com/~coken2/sitemap.htm
Let me know what you think.
Lovely! Any place that sees fit to preserve the PCC Trolley Car (or ANY kind of trolley car, for that matter), rates a great big "A" in my book.
I wonder if any of the Newark PCCs are going there? Last I heard they were bound for San Francisco Muni. Do any museums have dibs on any of them?
Wayne
They're not my pictures by the way. They were provided to me along with the web page text on the site- I'm not sure who took them but I would guess it was someone associated with the project.
What can you anyone tell me about the Electric Railroaders Association? Do they have a webpage? How do you become a memnber? Where will the next convention be?
Thanks
ERA was founded in 1934 and is still very much alive. Its New York Division (of which I am a Director) meets the third Friday of every month (so that would be next Friday, 8/20, for August) at the College of Insurance, 109 Murray Street in Manhattan (behind the World Trade Center). Doors open at 6:15 PM and the meeting starts at 7:15 PM. This month's show will be presented by Russell E. Jackson and will consist of color movies (some with sound) of various subjects from New York City and other places.
ERA doesn't have a website, but its e-mail address is era@juno.com.
NYD-ERA has a website, but it hasn't been updated in a while because our Webmaster recently went into the military. It's at http://members.aol.com/rob110178/era/
The NYD-ERA website has a NYD-ERA membership form you can print.
The most recent ERA convention was held last month, in Philadelphia.
The next NYD-ERA fantrip will be on September 25, 1999 (Saturday) using soon-to-be-retired diesel equipment on the LIRR's electric lines. For an application, e-mail era@juno.com and provide your name and (snail mail) address.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
[What can you anyone tell me about the Electric Railroaders Association? Do they have a webpage? How do you become a memnber? Where will the next convention be?]
Do you think it's possible anyone at the ERA would know / have technical info on the MP-54s? (yes, I'm *STILL* looking:( )
It's possible. Why don't you come down to HQ on a Monday evening and look in the library? HQ's in Grand Central Terminal, on the fourth floor. Use the elevators outside Michael Jordan's to get there.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
[Do you think it's possible anyone at the ERA would know / have technical info on the MP-54s? (yes, I'm *STILL* looking:( )]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That would be great.
Is the library open to the public then? Or are those times you'll be present to help me? What is the approximate time frame on mondays (I ask because for me, monday evening is 6pm - 1am!)
That would be great.
Is the library open to the public then? Or are those times you'll be present to help me? What is the approximate time frame on mondays (I ask because for me, monday evening is 6pm - 1am!)
Thanks! :)
As I was starting to say before my computer rudely interrupted me :-)
No, I generally don't go up there on Monday nights. However, the office is usually staffed from 5:30 to 7:30 PM or so. Call (212) 986-4482 and, if there's no answer, leave a message indicating what you want.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
Thanks for the info, I just may join once I scrounge up the money.
We take pennies! (Just kidding -- you're welcome.)
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association, Incorporated
[Thanks for the info, I just may join once I scrounge up the money.]
There has been alot of talk in crew rooms about the tss test. I understand that close to 500 people passed this exam. I also know that there are provisonal tss's and dispatchers failed this exam. The T.A. wants to lower the passing score so these people will pass. This will also allow them to compound 15 points for seniority on top of there mark. How can we stop this? The T.A. will 1 and 3 people just to get to who they want to hire. These provisonals/dispatchers were hand picked and given over 8 months to prepare for this exam. They should not of failed!!
This same rumor is being circulated about the T/O test, except instaed of lowering the pass score, they want to curve the scores of ONLY the provisional T/Os.
of course! after all they've spent money to train these provisional T/O'S and they neeed these FRESH MEAT to continue moving trains for the good of the service..
One of the provisionals was a provisional for a very short time. He quickly got promoted to Superint't writing schedules! He was told all he has to do is pass the TSS test and he is "in". I don't know if he actually did.
I forked over $50 for this exam and studied alot. I spent this time away from my family and friends to do this. If they get away with this then this job is SHOT! I guess that they are so used to kicking around this current union that they feel its ok to take on civil service law. These people (provisonal's) are family or friends of T.A.'s bosses. What a shame.
I do not believe that the TA can unilaterally subvert the Civil Service laws. Therefore, I don't believe that any of these possible outrages will happen. However, back in the mid 80s, the TA wanted to make a point. They created the title of MS II in many departments. This was a level II supervisor who was out of the union, enjoyed managerial benefits and supervised in key positions. Very few took the first exam because of strong SSSA opposition. WHen the TA next agreed to continue to pay the SSSA dues of any member who took the level II promotion, the SSSA dropped its opposition and many, many more took the exam. (of course, now the TA is trying to kill off the MS II title and force the remaining few to retire.
At the same time, in the Div. of Car Equip. (as in other operating divisions) several unqualified people were promoted from the hourly ranks, to managerial positions. In Car Equipment, the most outrageous examples were a Car Cleaner and a Painter being promoted to deputy Superintendent. The TA wanted to prove it could do as it wished, here too.
Now, with regard to my opening statement, keep this in mind. The current Labor Relations Group is a ruthless bunch who apparently feel that past practices, contracts and Civil Service Laws are simply small obstacles that they will overcome. If I were in your position, I'd keep my eyes open, my ears to the rails and be prepared to take legal action if your rights are violated.
Guess what? It's been done before and it will never end.
You talk about the provisionals being hacks...at least the majority of them passed the test. How about the last test when they lowered the passing score so they could make some TSS's or a few more years before that when 3 people took the TSS test that did not have the 2 years time on the date of the test....they bitched and moaned and now two of them are superintendents(one is an in-law of Nat Ford) and the other is a TSS in the IRT.
Eventually it will be a system of all supervisors being appointed.
I do not disagree but I never said anything about provisionals being hacks. Perhaps that came from another posting.
As a provisional for the past 12 years, I do not consider myself a hack. I have had one change to take a civil service test in that time (to the extent that that measures anything) and finished second.
There are three reasons to have provisionals. One is patronage.
A second is that tests don't measure dedication to the job, and many of those who get in the civil service system are in fact lousy workers. Provisionals can be fired if they do a bad job.
A third is that provisional local government employees don't have to pay social security, and their employers don't have to match it. That saves me -- and the City of NY -- about $3,200 per year each. The money goes into my own 401K instead. It's one of the few ripoffs I've actually benefitted from. And since the City also benefits, they won't appoint me unless I raise hell. Thus far I have not.
Notice the Republican noise about the "marriage tax" in the personal income tax? They don't mention the payroll tax, because it falls more heavily on the poor. If I was paying in also, we'd be paying more in payroll taxes than Bill Gates. And, since what you get out if it (if we ever get anything) is based on one earner (that would be my wife, who earns more), I wouldn't get anything by contributing more. Talk about a marriage tax!
OK, I want to be a provisonal TSS, but i dont have any hooks in top management. I feel i can do a great service for the T.A.. But i dont know anyone! So i study, and study. I pass. But someone's provisonal brother will pass me up only because he had HOOK's! So why bother having a test? What can we do about this?
I'm not saying that you are a hack or the provisional TSS's are hacks, it's just the perception and feeling among some of the operating personell that they are. Some of them are very capable.
My point was that the TA will get whatever and whomever they want. I see a day coming when all supervisor jobs will become appointed jobs. When trainmasters were done away with and the superintendent position was created it was only the beginning. But justa as anybody can pass a test and not be able to do the job, the reverse is also true. Some people are not good test takers yet they are very capable supervisors. It's just that the idea of patronage and nepotism is not well liked.
Ah. By reading that last paragraph, I see you agree with me. Satan DOES run the TA!
I don't really believe in Satan so i can't agree with you to that extent. However, with some of the things i se going on, it seems strange that Nixon was run out of office while some of these people are still running amok.
Let me ask something about the TSS exam...
Was it a full 100% for the written?? and not only 85% for the written AND 15% for senority??
Most promotional exams given by the city are this way.
The recent T/O exam was this way. It was a written test of 80 questions with a weight of 85%. The remaining 15% is based on senority and (as I understand it) years in RTO title (but definately senority). The exam itself said this right on the first page.
As for another post regarding the provisional T/O's, all of the provisionals I know, myself included, passed the exam. Some not as good as others but passed none the less. The saying here is that the years in title, key word TITLE, will fall into play here. Provisionals are acting T/O's SO they have time in TITLE.
But hey, if you are a provisional and you fail... you shouldn't be allowed to stay period.
We'll all just have to wait and see how they handle the situation.
Later,
Chris
Bulletin #4 from the Lower Manhattan Access Study is out, listing ten possible Transportation System Management alternatives.
1.- Potential to improve train capacity and trip times by early implementation of new technology train control sigmal system on Lex ave.
2.- A new fifth track at GCT IRT station for the downtown local trains to allow downtown express trains to board on both sides of the existing platform. This could result in increased Lex express reliability and train throughput.
3.- An underground passageway between Fulton St 4/5 station and WTC.
4.- A new passageway from lower-level GCT to mezzanine level of IRT station.
5.- Adding a fifth track at Atlentic Avenue could improve capacity on the entire Lex IRT by allowing some southbound trains to stop and reverse direction to return to lower Manhattan. This could allow LIRR riders arriving at Flatbush to transfer to an empty Lex IRT train.
6.- Restructure Nostrand Junction (Franklin Ave) to eliminate merging conflicts between the 3/4 and 2/5.
7.- Modify Brooklyn IRT service. This could increase frequency and reduce delays through the Nostrand Junction area at a lower cost than #6.
8.- Relocating one of the Nostrand Ave IRT services into a new extension of the Eastern Pkway IRTsouth along Utica Ave could eliminate the merge conflicts. The proposed Utica Ave service couls also provide convenient new subway access.
9.- Stairway imrovements and platform widening at Cortlandt St 1/9 station.
10.- New fast ferry service from Westchester and Rockland counties.
For more info: www.lowermanhattanaccess.com
To comment usefully: lmcomments@aol.com
Your comments welcome here. With the permission of Dave, well-written ones might be forwarded. Please remember: THESE ARE ONLY PROPOSALS.
WOW! A Utica Avenue line to Kings Plaza would VASTLY improve my commute. Especially with a footbridge over the creek to Kings Plaza. Now if we could have a four track line...
I posted my own version of an Utica Ave line between Manhattan Bch/Kings Plaza to the West Side of Manhattan..........
3TM
Karl B sent me a xerox copy of the transit map he had and requested that I post the results on sub-talk.
The map is copyrighted by one George J Nostrand of 258 Broadway,NYC and was sold by the Pioneer Office Supply Company of the same address.
It bears more than a passing resemblance to the Hagstom's Map of the NYC Subways and Els dated Dec 1,1948 and yet it obviously predates it.
The map shows the 3 Av El running from 241 St to Chatham Sq with the Bronx Park Spur and Bergen Av Connection still intact. As the Bergen Cutoff ended in 1946 and the Bronx Park Spur in 1950 and yet the City Hall Branch ran until the end of 1953 I think Mr Nostrand simply eliminated the el south of Chatham Sq for clarity. The map section south of City Hall is poorly drawn and he eliminates Broad Street Station.
The Myrtle el is shown as running to Park Row so this dates us to before 1944.
The Second Avenue El is not shown and yet neither is the Dyre Avenue Line. The northern section of the el was closed in 1940 and the southern half in 1942. The Dyre Avenue Line openned in 1941 so you must have one or the other.
I would have to date this map probably in 1943 since the 2 Av El is gone and the Myrtle El still goes to Park Row. The elimination of the 3 Av El below Chatham Sq notwithstanding.
A resonable supposition would be that Hagstoms acquired the copyright to this map and made improvements to it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Judgeing from your description, I'd say Hagstrom made some corrections to it.
-Hank
A few comments on your excellent discussion, Larry.
Hagstrom's first complete subway map was 1936, looking very like the map that was the standard for three decades or more.
It is impossible to accurately date a map when the producer apparently became careless in updating it. Some wildly inaccurate or just plain careless maps (cf. "Flashmaps") have been produced. Other maps. especially those produced for companies promoting their line of business have "forgotten" to show some lines that don't happen to run to their store locations.
Your date of 1943 seems most likely, but it might be even later. Perhaps with Hagstrom's map muscling it off the shelves, Nostrand tried to update their map "on the cheap."
"It is impossible to accurately date a map when the producer apparently became careless in updating it. Some wildly inaccurate or just plain careless maps (cf. "Flashmaps") have been produced."
I always find it both useful and amusing when I'm looking to buy a guidebook to another city to examine the Chicago book in the same series. If, despite their copyright date, they describe the CTA L/subway lines with A/B stops or show the old pre-switchoff Lake-Dan Ryan and Howard-Engelwood Jackson Park routings, I presume their other tourbooks may be equally out of date and I am reluctant to buy them. When I see really bizarre errors like CTA running the L system, Metra the commuter trains, and Pace the CITY and suburban buses (!), I definitely avoid that guidebook series!
As this thread is showing, this is definitely not a new phenomenon! I have a Rand-McNally guide to Chicago, copyrighted 1953, and there is a *total* disconnect between the written description of the L routes and the included L system map -- one was updated but the other was clearly not (I forget which, without the book in front of me). The largest of these errors is that one describes the pre-Dearborn Subway routing of the Logan Square L over the old Metropolitan L into the Loop, while the other depicts the actual 1953 situation of Logan Square trains operating in the Milwaukee-Dearborn-Congress subway to a terminus at the LaSalle/Congress station. Not a minor change, to say the least! (^:
I think we in New York have gotten used to highly accurate maps because of the Hagstrom Company, followed by the steadily improving quality of MTA maps.
Hagstrom most of the 5th floor of its Broadway building taken up by draftsmen drawing, improving and updating the maps. The indexes in the street maps (you know: "Blodgett Street....17 D 6") were assembled onto cards so that updtaing would be quick and accurate.
I believe Hagstrom was the last to give up depicting the separate divisions (BMT, IRT, IND). I wouldn't count that as an inaccuracy, though. The founder was fond of his subway map and I wouldn't be surprised if the final yielding to the new routing realities was coincident with his passing.
Still, my vote for number one transit company provided map is ... ( drum roll ) ... PTC/SEPTA's maps, even if they aren't free.
Does that 1953 Rand-McNally guide make any reference to streetcars? There were several lines still operating in Chicago back then, although a good many routes had already been converted to bus.
"Does that 1953 Rand-McNally guide make any reference to streetcars? There were several lines still operating in Chicago back then, although a good many routes had already been converted to bus."
Yes, it lists descriptions for the then-existing CTA surface routes as well as the rapid transit routes, and it indicates for each surface route whether it is (now was) operated with streetcars, trolley buses, or motor buses.
The old Boston maps used to indicate buses by putting the line number in a box, trackless in a triangle, trolleys in a circle, IIRC.
Philly used different colors, which I liked.
When you go out with a map, what would you do? where would you go and what would you talk about?
RIM SHOT
LarryRedbirdR33,
Thanks so much for taking the time to review my map. I knew if anyone had the knowledge to check it out, it would be you. I think that it is ironic that this map was apparently sold as a souvenir from the Empire State Bldg during WW-2. I sure hope that tourists did not attempt to use it as a subway guide, since it contained so many errors. Steve B had questions about the map, and I'm counting on him seeing your post.
Thanks again for your expertise,
Karl B
Karl: I would like to thank you for the opportunity to study this map and thank you and the others for there kind comments.
A few further observations and questions:
The terminus of the Fulton St El is shown as Lefferts Av-119 St. When did Lefferts Av become Lefferts Blvd?
Belt Parkway is shown as running from Queens west to about 36 St in Brooklyn and then becoming 3 Avenue.
The "Battery Tunnel" is shown but not as a completed roadway. When was the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel completed and was its construction interupted by the war?
Those of you familiar with the Hagstoms Map known that the five remaining el lines in 1948;3 Av,9Av(Polo Grds),Myrtle,Lexington and Fulton were shown as a thin black line whereas the subway lines where shown with a fat colored line even if the subway line was elevated. If the line had combined subway/el service the thin black line was placed inside the colored line. Our friend Mr Nostrand applies this somewhat selectively;the Pelham Line is shown as being completely subway while the entire Franklin,West End and Culver Lines are shown as combined subway and elevated.
The Astoria and Flushing Lines are shown as being IRT Subway,BMT Subway and Elevated. The Astoria Line is also shown as running on 2 Avenue in Queens!
Park Avenue South is shown as Fourth Av from 14 Street to 33 Street.
I know Fourth Av runs south from 14 Street but I don't know if it was ever called Fourth Av north of that point although Park does run on what was intended to be the alighment for Fourth Av.
If anyone has more insight into this please post.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Park Avenue South (from Union Square to 33rd Street) was shown subtitled as "4th Ave" on the old yellow (not the 1960s ones) street signs.
Wayne
Look up on the wall of the building on the southeast corner of 23rd St. and Park Ave. South and lettering on the wall still says Fourth Ave. It's right above the uptown entrance.
I believe that the renaming from Fourth Ave. to Park Ave. South occurred around 1960.
-- Ed Sachs
Those of you familiar with the Hagstoms Map known that the five remaining el lines in 1948;3 Av,9Av(Polo Grds),Myrtle,Lexington and Fulton were shown as a thin black line whereas the subway lines where shown with a fat colored line even if the subway line was elevated. If the line had combined subway/el service the thin black line was placed inside the colored line. Our friend Mr Nostrand applies this somewhat selectively;the Pelham Line is shown as being completely subway while the entire Franklin,West End and Culver Lines are shown as combined subway and elevated.
This also speaks to the general inaccuracy of the map. Some old maps show Franklin as elevated (only) even after the connection with the Fulton Street line was severed. But there was no joint subway (to Franklin Avenue only) - elevated via Fulton Street at the same time.
West End did not have service via 5th Ave. L once subway service was instituted, so this is wrong.
Culver did have joint service, but not after June 1, 1940 (O! Dismal Day).
If you really wanna fudge, you could put a joint "subway-elevated" designation on West End south of Bay Parkway and Culver south of Kings Highway, because each ran elevated car shuttles during rush hours. But this is a technicality which I would not expect to see reflected in a public map.
The Astoria and Flushing Lines are shown as being IRT Subway,BMT Subway and Elevated. The Astoria Line is also shown as running on 2 Avenue in Queens!
Obviously this should have been IRT Subway and Elevated. As to BMT, I never even thought of how to portray it. It ran BMT elevated cars, but connected to the BMT subway. The BMT simply showed ground level or above lines as elevated, below ground level (inbcluding cuts) as subway.
Park Avenue South is shown as Fourth Av from 14 Street to 33 Street. I know Fourth Av runs south from 14 Street but I don't know if it was ever called Fourth Av north of that point although Park does run on what was intended to be the alighment for Fourth Av.
Yes, Park Avenue South is a social-climbing Fourth Avenue.
Notwithstanding inaccuracices, that's an interesting map.
Paul: Do you recall a subway/highway map issued by the Seamen's Bank for Savings back in the middle sixties. They issued at least two editions and it was far superior to the official subway map of the time. It used a three color system for each of the three divisions and showed subway and open cuts with a thick line and els and raised embankments with a thin line. They also included the railroads and PATH and it was quite accurate. The reverse side showed the principal auto routes. I inquired about it in the early 70's but was told that they no longer published it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes. That map stood out in that it was designed new top down and was very detailed.
Did the Pelham Line ever run 'joint' el/subway service? As far as the BMT joint service on the Flushing/Astoria lines, they probably considered it as a connecting el service....
No, there was no elevated connection to Pelham.
Well, this map seems to have used some of the new names and the old ones. Lefferts Avenue became Boulevard at the same time (around 1920) that the streets in Queens was numbered. This map obviously postdates that, and somehow, they managed to used the old name of the road and a new numbered street. Second Avenue in Queens is part of an old numbering scheme in Astoria that was replaced by the Queens-wide system. Is Roosevelt shown as Amity? There are stations with the old name. Such as Rawson, Bliss, Lowery etc. on the 7, and Hudson, Boyd, Greenwood and Oxford on the A. Fourth Avenue became Park Avenue South around 1960 or so. The area south of Union Square may have been known as Bowery until that time and it was renamed to keep a Fourth Avenue in existence. Union Square was so named because it was the union of Bowery and the Bloomingdale Road (Broadway). The area north of 34th was known as Fourth Avenue until I BELIEVE when the tracks were buried and the median constructed. Although I've seen a picture in which I think that the line was open, it was probably closed when electrified. Now, the automotive tunnel south of 42nd was built with the original line, so I don't know how that worked.
The Brooklyn Battery Tunnel was opened in 1950, visit Brooklyn-Battery Tunnel (I-478) for more information. You can also find info on the Battery and Gowanus Parkways there.
Now I forgot to mention that this is probably not all correct and I would appreciate any responses fixing any vagueness and correcting me. After all, this board is for sharing what we know, and learning what we don't (OK, I stole that from Deja.com).
In addition to LarryRedbirdR33, I want to thank the rest of you for your posts with comments about my undated Nostrand transit map. I have learned a lot from reading them.
I have a Geographia Pocket Atlas of NY, dated 1965, that identifies the last stop on the Fulton St El as Leffert's Ave or 119th St. A map in the same book shows the street to be Leffert's Blvd.
I have a friend with a steel destination sign that reads Leffert's Ave. He told me it was from a 1300 gate car.
Apparently both the Board of Transportation and the Geographia Map Co had problems with the name of this street.
To further complicate things there is both a Leffert's Ave and a Leffert's Place in the borough of Brooklyn.
Does this confusion still exist today?
Ok, now I've heard everything. Lo and behold, the R110As are now on the 7 line! The R110s came south yesterday on the 2/5 for a destination unknown. Well, it seems that they were transferred over to the B Division. I was informed by another SubTalk Member that he spotted the Kawasaki set at Corona. What in the devil could they be up to? Is this a sign of things to come (the R142)?
Someone should be able to confirm that the R110A is truly there. In that case, maybe I should volunteer myself, run out to Corona like a madman, and get some snapshots.
Also, this colleague of mine reports that odd lashups of R36s are starting to appear. It seems that the GE and Westingouse R36s are being mixed together (or so he says). 9400 series and 9700 series lashups? It's not impossible, but the lowered numbered series cars (9346-9477) are usually bunched together as is the high series cars (9558-9769. On the high series bunch, it not uncommon to find an R33 stuck in there). He also says that the cars appear to be getting some new kind of sticker - it appears to be a barcode.
Another kind gentleman has informed that while there are 10 car lashups on the 7 right now, 15 R33 singles have been assigned to work service. Any info, please post.
-Stef
It's not uncommon for R-33s cars to be used in work service during the summer, while they're not being used for revenue service. IIRC, they haul garbage flat cars.
David
[Another kind gentleman has informed that while there are 10 car lashups on the 7 right now, 15 R33 singles have been assigned to work service. Any info, please post.]
You're right. I've seen the R33 Corona Fleet haul the refuse flats on the IRT Mainline out of 239th St Yard. I won't be surprised if these cars get assigned to work service permanently.
Hey, there's a married pair that's been working one of the Regular Work Trains from 239th St. 8986 and 87 are substituting for one of the R127s currently out of service. The R33 pair is currently running with EP0004. It looks like the R33 pair got looped in 239 Yard. This evening 8987 was on the operating end with #2 signs instead of the usual "Not in Service". The marker lights were lit on 8986's end and had the signage set for "Not in Service". So they did uncouple the cars and turn them around! Odd, because I can't recall when was the last time revenue cars got looped at 239th St. I know that the work equipment does get looped on occasion.
-Stef
Thanks for the info on that: I hadn't spotted #8986-8987, and I guess that's because they're work motors! Are they still Redbirds or are they Yellowbirds? Anyway, they get the yellow Work Motor boxes in the book, and that closes R33.
One other pair I'm still looking for is R29 #8636-8637, which would be out of Westchester. I have not seen it despite a trip up the Pelham in the middle of rush hour, and numerous other attempts. Do you know the status of this pair?
Wayne
Wayne,
8986 and 87 are in work service temporarily. An R127 work motor has been unavailable for the refuse train, so a set of R33s were assigned to the train. Yes, they are still redbirds, unlike 8885, which may never carry passengers again.
Have no clue on the status of R29s 8636 and 37. Chances are that set is out of service at 207th St or Westchester for some repairs. If I see them, you'll be the first to know.
Did you make note of R68 2579 on your scrap list? Steve says the wiring is damaged, but after some years work, she'll be back. I expect that 2579's companions will be assigned to the Franklin Shuttle with 2716-2724. If another accident occurs, and we'll wind up with R68 spares and of course, mixed marriages.
My friend hasn't seen much of the R36 odd couple, 9348 and 9411. I'd like to get more details on exactly what happened to their partners in crime, 9349 and 9410.
-Stef
Friday evening the R110A passed 59 Master Tower on its way to Corona Yard. So it's a pretty good bet that's were it's at.
I went by Corona yard today....IT'S THERE
While waiting at Woodside for the LIRR.I saw the R-110A pull into Woodside, Change ends and proceed back towards Flushing. Does anyone know why it's there?
Robert,
A few weeks ago there was an article in the NY Post which stated that the yet to be delivered R-142's will be assigned to the #7 line. It is very possible that they are doing tests. (Clearance,Brakes,etc.)
Since I believe the R-110A is supposed to be similar to the R-142, I guess the TA is avoiding future problems by doing some of the tests now...Mark W.
As the R110a was approaching 59 Master Tower it ID it's self on the radio as a test train headed to Corona yard. I watched it go by on the video monitor where we were able to see the south motor number. I think it was 8001.
Will it be in (revenue) service on the #7 anytime soon? I'd LOVE to get on the 110A (and B - what's the status on that sucker?). And the #7 is my favorite line - though it won't look the same without those redbirds :( Anyone want to push to get the R-142s painted red? ;)
I suggessted dark red-tinted stainless steel body sides for the new IRT cars a few months ago, which would at least come close to the tone of the `birds without sharing their rusting problem.
Could they have been testing the weight on the express track?? That might be a potential problem with the 110s-142s...arent they heavier than your standard St Louis car of 1959-1964??
Hi folks, What time was the R110A spotted at Woodside? I hope it goes into service. I would love to see and ride it. I hope its here to stay. Any word on the R142s?
I wouldn't be surprised if the set went into service. It's time to get the 7 ready if the new cars are coming in, especially relaible ones. Perhaps, our friends in Transit finally got things right. The R110 is ready to come into service and how fitting would it be than to put it on the 7?
If I recall correctly, the R110A was over at Corona once before. The 1st time was a real problem. The cars dropped dead in the vicinity of Hunters Point Av if I have my story right. I don't know, but I think the cars didn't like the grade the tracks take coming out of or even into Hunters Point Av. I'd appreciate it if somebody could elaborate on what happened to the R110A from the previous time.
-Stef
Probably not the grade but the power, you see these new high tech puppies are very particular when it comes to the incoming voltage. The 110B had problems in the Rockaways since that section seemed to exceed 600 volts...
I'd think they would be LIGHTER. They are made of stainless steel, they use lightweight trucks with airbags instead of springs and they use a lot more plastic than the Redbirds.
The Flushing line was built to the same Dual Contracts standards as other elevated structures which handle subway equipment. Put it this way: if the Triplexes could run on the Astoria line, which they did, they could have run express on the Flushing line without causing it to collapse, had it been able to accommodate 10-foot-wide equipment.
Hey everyone. While I was waiting at Grand Central for the #7 to Queens there was an announcement that the arriving train was out of service. Guess what it was. From TS to Flushing 8001,2,3,4,5,10,9,8,7,6. It must have been doing at least 40MPH right through the station. Does anyone know why there out there? And are they going into service on the #7?
Today I overheard two Motor Instructors talking. They were saying that the R-44's are going to be swapped for Jamaica R-32's. Does anyone know if this is true?
I thought the R-44/46's were too long/heavy for the Broadway/Jamaica lines???? Especially too heavy for Willy B?? Just wondering, because one of the reasons that the 32s are out there, is because of their relatively light weight. (???) I know for sure that they are too big for the 14 st/Canarsie service.....That was why the the Triplex units only ran on the 'southern division' of the BMT..
I believe he meant the R44's would be transferred to the Jamiaca yard, most likely running on the E line, not the J line, which cannot support 75' subway cars.
The only reason the 75-footers cannot run on the Jamaica line is because of the two sharp curves between Crescent St. and Cypress Hills. They're not as heavy as the BMT standards, which could and did run on that line.
Support can mean that too. I don't think that Chris was referring to weight.
Yes, I was referring to the curves on the J line ...
[ I thought the R-44/46's were too long/heavy for the Broadway/Jamaica
lines???? Especially too heavy for Willy B?? Just wondering, because
one of the reasons that the 32s are out there ]
Lou, he was talking about the IND Jamaica Yard, which supplies the E, F, G and R lines. The eastern div BMT, (J,Z,M,L) lines are currently running R40/R40M/R42 trains, from East New York, Canarsie, and Metropolitan yards. (I guess only ENY has any significant maintenance facilities, though, right?)
As of Friday at 2 PM, this rumor had not reached me. About 2 years ago, this was proposed to unify some off the fleets with multiple car classes. For example, giving all R-42s to Concourse and having only R-68 & R-68As in Coney Island. This would be a double edge sword for jamaica. Jamaica would end up with 2 car classes instead of its current 3 (R-46, R32 Phase I and R-32 Phase II) and it would benefit in that the R-44s would account for 34 full length trains. In return, Jamaica would give up 29 full length trains (290 R-32s). Presumably the 5 extra trains would be necessary due to the needed increased spare factor.
On the other hand, Jamaica Shop has no experience maintaining the E-cam controller and training and parts would be needed immediately. Pitkin would end up with R-32 Phase I and Phase II which would be interchangabel with the R-38s of the sister shop (207th St.) Of course, Pitkin may also end up with the Slant 40s until they are scrapped.
Hey, if the slant R-40s wind up on the A, more power to 'em!
In the NY Post Sunday Aug 15, page 4, is a article about the federal govt has given the green light to the MTA to take the next step toward building the long-awaited 2nd ave subway, the NY Post has learned.
The federal transit administration approved the MTA's East Side Alternatuve study, which includes a $3.5 billion plan to build a new Second Aveune line from 125th to 63rd street.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your excellent thoughts are welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
8/15/99 9:29A
I'll believe it when it see..er,ride it!!
Let's not forget the NIMBY's. You know ,those opposed to the inconvience of subway construction but are oblivious to the traffic outside their windows on Second Ave. This is a must because the LIRR access to the East side will overburdon the already overstuffed Lexington Ave line.
Bill Newkirk
That's great if it's true. The only foreseeable problem will be the traffic tie-ups the construction of the line will create unless there's been new methods of tunnel boring within the last 20-30 years since the project originally began.
(Let's not forget the NIMBY's)
I think NIMBY may be an old acronym that should be updated to:
NIMBYUYPM
"Not in my backyard UNLESS YOU PAY ME
Many NY politicos, who were elected for nothing more than the size of their vocal cords, have found that they finally can work wonders for themselves and constituents by holding up huge public works projects to blackmail. The JFK - "Air Train" project is just a small example of how and what local politicians will do to this project too. Once their pockets are full, once they have gotten their share of no show jobs for their friends & family, once the project is so far behind schedule that all momentum will be lost, then these local elected officials will step out of the way. The feds may have opened the throttle but local pols. are already lining up to lay on the tracks....
(NIMBY unless paid). After years of NIMBY delays, the new Kings County hospital was approved (in the Dinkins Administration) with a projected cost of over a billion and a different electrical contract for every floor. Giulani, who was not in on the deal, killed the project.
You took the words right out of my mouth...
About the only positive thing I can think of concerning Hillary's run for the Senate in New York is the cash flow coming from the Clinton Administration to the city figures to increase for the next 15 months, in order to boost her chances here. (Of course, making sure everyone knows none of it is the result of anything that mayor or governor did)
Even if funding was blocked by Congress, it could be used as a campaign issue against Republicans and Guiliani in the year 2000.
If I were the MTA, I'd try to get the money signed, sealed and delivered as soon as possible, because this sounds like an offer that will be gone after November, 2000.
An excellent point. It's truely shameful that we can never feel that things are done because they are the right thing to do or because the public will benifit from them. We have only our selves to blame in that we elect such low life scum and have such low expectations for them. Shame on us.
(Hillary and dollars). Most of the extra $ we are likely to get are for housing and social services, not transportation, education, and other things NY's Democrats don't care about. Expect Andrew Cuomo to promise a few more housing projects. Expect other states whose welfare recipients will soon be cut off to offer to fill them.
It's our money. Why do the FEDs have to approve the 2nd Avenue Subway anyway?
If the money comes through the Department of Transportation and the Urban Mass Transit Administration, you could easily see Hillary at the DOT building in Washington helping to make the announcement with Sens. Monyahan (who really does care about NYC area transit) and Schumer (who really does care are Charlie Schumer) and the Democratic members of the NYC House delgation.
Right now the feds are (supposedly) running a budget surplus, and you've got the missus of the president running for a Senate seat in New York State. In no way do I consider a Second Ave. subway an "election year pork project" but the tradition for decades in D.C. is for the president to hand out goodies during an election year in order to increase his party's voter turnout. Somehow, Clinton doesn't strike me as ther man who's going to break that trend in 2000.
Heck, if Guiliani could figure out some additions he could claim for his own (No. 7 extension to Javits Center, improved Amtrak/high-speed Acela service for Albany, Syracuse, Rochester and Buffalo) the Republicans in Congress would be more likely to pass it over the next 15 months than any time before or after -- many of the GOP in Congress have a viceral hatred of New York (even if they're not sure why, they just hate it), but the thought of Hillary Clinton in the U.S. Congress would cause them to ignore their anti-New York bias and do anything to help Guiliani win, even OKing subway funding (so long as they let everyone know Rudy derserved part of the credit)
(Republicans hate Hillary enough to help NYC).
What you forget is that most Republicans also hate Rudy. And, that most Democrats (except a small local clique here in NYC) also can't stand the Clintons. I still don't understand how we got stuck with them.
In this case, the saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend" applies.
All they have to do is figure out who the bigger enemy is. Since Hillary is known and disliked by Republicans everywhere, and a lot of GOP people elswhere wouldn't recognize Rudy if he walked up to them and took away their street vendor's license, I'd be willing to bet the battle lines get drawn under traditional Republican-Democratic lines, no matter how much Guliani is disliked.
It's our money. Why do the FEDs have to approve the 2nd Avenue Subway anyway?
Shirley, you jest!
Whether you're in New York or Wyoming, the Federal Government always attaches plenty of strings when you get your own money back.
Rather like the trick kids used to play. You leave a wallet in the middle of the sidewalk attached to a string, waiting for a sucker to bend over.
Except that the Federal Government asks the sucker for his wallet first before showing him the neato trick!
NYC needs the transit money even if NY gets more back than they send in.
Money is fungible. With all the crap attached to federal money, I believe it should only be used for buying cars/buses and reconstruction. These "keep it the same" projects are exempt from much of the federal BS, while new projects are not.
Does the MTA have a fantasy that they will get EXTRA money to build the Second Avenue Subway. More power to them if they get it. My impression is that the Feds are more likely to attach strings to the same level of funding we already get, so federal officials could get credit for improvements even as the rest of the system declines.
It's how the Democrats take power that the Constitution doesn't grant them. They use the writing of the tax code to control the local governments to the extent they can.
We send them money then they specify how we can spend it. Because now it's THEIR money. So we can only spend it how they see fit. Welfare and housing projects. The money goes to the leeches of society because those are the fools who believe the class envy speeches the liberals spout. So they vote for Democrats because Democrats spend on them. And emocrats spend on them because they vote for Democrats. That's one reason why the liberal Democrats controlled NYC for so long. Also why the City declined so. It's only recently things are begining to turn around.
Don't get me wrong. I'm no fan of Il Guiliani, and I'm also a union man. But the failed policies f the last 40 years really had to go. It was nothing more than steal from the rich and give to the poor.
(The policies of the last 40 years are steal from the rich and give to the poor).
The evidence suggests that most of the money never quite gets to the poor. In NYC, the poor get about 20 percent of the money "for the poor," down from 33 percent in the early 1980s. Most goes to organizations that provide "service" to the poor. THOSE people are organized and vote, the poor aren't.
Back in 1970, when the NYCT was looking for federal money to buy new subway cars, they got it with strings attached. The strings mandated the use of unproven technologies and we ended up witht he R-44 and R-46. A perfect example of federal ,money coming with a string, or a chain. The 2nd Ave. subway will make the boondoggle of the R-44/R-46 pale by comparrison.
I, for one, am a little tired of federal money being apportioned on the basis of economic status or race. If the 2nd Avenue subway is to be built, it should be built on the totality of its utility and not based on how many poor or minority people it will serve (as a percentage of the total). Unfortunately, the bureaucrats in Washington all fancy themselves as social engineers. They think they can legislate and fund solutions to social problems.
The fact is that the 2nd Ave. Subway will likely not be built with the benifit of the entire city in mind. If it is built, economic and social considerations will will take priority over sound transportation planning.
CAPITAL MONIES are used for construction/rolling stock hence thats why Washington must approve of these dollars
I'm assuming that you're making a joke, and know the real meaning of 'Capital Funds'
-Hank
Feds Open Throttle On 2nd Ave Subway URL:
http://www.nypostonline.com/news/1445.htm
Or link
With all the thought about shorter cars, and economize the TA....
Perhaps, my thinking is that linking cars and 75' cars are pretty pitiful mistakes....
If one car is out of service with a linked set, the other cars are very likely SOL.
I hope that after the R142s/R143s, the next car order will specify 60' singles for the BMT/IND as well as IRT (which would be 51').....
This should faciliate the use of 2-car OPTO at night for the less used lines, such as the G.
If 2-car trains can exist, then the list of the lines that are ideal for this are (all at night):
G Line (40 minute headways)
#5 Dyre Shuttle (30 minute headways) [3-cars possible]
M Myrtle Shuttle (30-40 minute headways)
Rockaway Shuttle (40 minute headways)
Lefferts Shuttle (25-30 minute headways) [3 cars possibly]
Franklin Shuttle (2 car trains, perhaps 40 minute headways)
In general, cut down on costs if a good number of 60' singles were ordered (minimum 1500 or so, in that case would be replacements for R32, R38, R40, R40M and R42, all of which are >30 years old)
Comments welcome.
Nick C
The original reason for moving from single-units to married pairs was to cut costs. Same number of cars, half as much equipment. When new cars were ordered in the early 80s, system MDBF was under 10,000. Single cars allowed the TA to maximize the use of 'good' cars, while working to get reliability under control. Since they have accomplished that seemingly impossible feat (I believe fleet MDBF is now averageing over 30,000), pairs are now he way to go to reduce maintainece costs, and eliminate redundant equipment.
a 2 or 3 car train may be unable to cover certain gaps in the third rail, which could cause a train to coast to a stop. The shortest train the TA will use is 4-cars of 60', 3 75', and 4 51'.
My only question to you, however, is are those the current service frequencies, or are they your numbers?
-Hank
Those are his numbers Hank.
The original person who posted this thread wrote that he believes 20+ minute headways is the way to save money on lightly ridden lines.
What a crock! He sounds like the fools who think that raising taxes brings in more money to the Government.
"If you build it, they will come" is a quote from a movie about a baseball park. IF YOU RUN IT, THEY WILL RIDE!
A good reason why so many people don't ride the trains(not just the subway but all trains) late at night is they refuse to stand on a platform waiting for a train for half an hour!
Ridership at night fell for years because of crime. In some places like the #7or the N and especially the E and F, the ridership is very high. Ride any train to Queens after midnight and you will see it crowded. With people standing a signifigant way to the terminal. In recent years the economy has taken an upswing, and the rsultant rise in employment has played a part in the ridership boom. Late night it's mostly service employees like office cleaners and security guards. How many drive or take cabs or walk? How many don't take the train because they refuse to put up with the interminable waits and snail like progress at night?
Lord knows the trains are overcrowded at night in Queens as it is, so the 20 minute headway there is a failure. In other places the ridership is less. For a variety of reasons. In some places the demographics won't support riding late at night. Ie: large population of elderly. Or few residents in an industrial neighborhood. Here the solution is not long headways but short trains and selective station closure at nighttime.
The operative thought here is SERVICE. It's far more productive to run short trains every ten minutes and close little used stations, than stop everywhere with a full length train at a shaky 20 minute one. User friendly, not use discouraging.
But TA could care less. Whatever is good for their use, not the public.
Satan runs the TA. I'm convinced.
Don't blame the TA for another posters idea. The TA has maintained 20 minute service overnight on all lines, and is making a good move with the upcoming doubling of overnight local service on the Lex and 7th Avenue lines. I agree that Queens bound service during the overnight could stand to be increased (I've been on SRO 7 trains at 3 AM on a few occasions -- and I don't ride that line often). At least the latest change is in the right direction.
Chuck
My only hope is that they run those extra Lex trains all the way to South Ferry. I understand (beyond the complaints) why they would send the 2 local late hours, in addition to the 1, as the express is nearly useless at that hour.
-Hank
Current fleet 12 month moving MDBF is actually around 75,000 miles. The goal for this year is 77,166 miles. The linking of cars has not only helped increase reliability and reduce costs but it has forced maintenance people to work smarter (with less spares cars).
Unfortunately, the original poster has not a clue about sevice at night. 40 Minute headway on the 'G'. He should see the G at 3 AM. Usually it looks like mid-day on the G line as far as guantity is concerned. Same with other lines. I've been on F rains at that hour where there were virtually no seats.
As for 3rd rail gaps, it's not as bad as that. The revenue trains consist of 2 IRT cars or 102' long. There are virtually no main line gaps and just a few yard lead gaps longer than that.
Just a thought about the collectors using 2 IRT cars. They do gap from time to time, that is why they carry jumper cables on them. One new problem that the collectors encounter is the advent of the wheel detector. While speed by the rule book is 10 miles an hour over a switch, sometimes a two car collector needs to exceed this. With wheel detectors, if the train exceeds the speed, the train is tripped and sometimes gaps. What a pain in the behind.
Also it has been my understanding that the NTSB has told the TA to stop using 2 car trains. Maybe they should be a little more diligent.
I'm not sure if it's because the crews want A/C equipped cars, or the NTSB. The revenue collector for the IND in Queens has a pair of R-32's tagged on for a while now.
It's probably the A/C. In the IRT, the collectors had an R-62 tacked on because it was so bloomin' hot. Then of course they were taken off because there was a car shortage on the Lenox line. Maybe when they get the new fleet they'll hold some redbirds for this reason.
I remember noticing two R46 A-A cars on the collector about 4 or 5 years ago on occassion.
Absolutely not! R-46s will not MU with Revenue Collector cars.
No, they ran just as a two car unit.
I should've stated they ran as the collector.
0R719 and 1R719 were out of service for painting for several weeks. During their absence we used 0R721 & 1R721 (revenue spares). I am not aware of any time when an R-46 A-A unit was used as a collector over the past several months. Since there would be the logistical problem of moving the canisters, it's doubtful that this would be done. If necessary, R-32s would be added to te regular Collector Cars.
I saw it about 4 years ago at Continental ave.
Hey Steve, Do you have a list of Work Cars (former Passerger car numbers)? I have two pictures of Collector Cars are or/ir720 & or/ir723, also I have RD323, 326, 333, 337, & 359. Just post this subtalk.
Peace Out
Meaney
As a matter of fact, I can cross reference the original numbers in the Car Equipment computer database. However, I am on vacationthis week. Send me a list and I'll look them up for you after next week.
Steve,
The headways I listed were what I want to see, not what is currently on....
I am sorry if I did not indicate this on the first post.
I would love to see 10 or 15 minute headways on E, F, N and #7 tho at night....if the demand exists for such headways.
Nick C
Hank,
The headways I listed were what I want to see, not what is currently on....
I am sorry if I did not indicate this on the first post.
Nick C
A major reason they want to link the cars (aside from saving money on half the use of compresseors and such) is the TA feels a lot of problems come from the coupler. Not that there are a whole lot of brake pipe ruptures in the couplers but it does happen. In addition, electrical prblems occur when there is a bad connection or a false feed in the electric portion of the coupler.
I was told by some TSS that the majority of problems like you say are in the coupler at the electric portion either dirty or not mating properly which can cause a slew of problems.
I'd like to take issue with that statement and statements like it. Especially on fleets like the R-68A, R-44, R-46 and R-62s where there is only one coupler used and only one electric portion made up, this is rarely a problem. Most reported problems are for guard lights and doors stuckopen. In addition, there are many reports of intermittant brake and propulsion problems and the ever-handy "unusual noise". Most of these reports are unfounded.
Look at the R-46s as a case in point. The R-46s now run on the E,F, G and R lines. The Es are 23% of the Qeens Blvd Service, Fs are 42%, Gs are 11% and the Rs are 24%. While the F & R lines are roughly the same number of stops and are exclusively R-46s, twice as many trains with mechanical difficulties come out of service on the R line than on the F. Why do you suppose this is? I'd be interested in an RTO point of view.
BTW: 42% of all charged delays on the Queens Blvd Lines come from the R line.
Maybe the BMT itself is to blame. The IND "F" line is straighter, the curves aren't as tight, etc. I'm not saying that the ROW itself is to blame, but all that twisting and turning around (5th Avenue, 57th Street, City Hall, Cortlandt, Whitehall, e.of Court, De Kalb, Pacific, s. of 59th) may be putting some extra strain on the 75-foot car bodies. Some of those turns are so tight they had to modify the tunnels for the 75-footers to fit. Sharpest turn on the whole "F" is probably between 47-50th and 5th Avenue. Everything else is pretty wide.
Wayne
That don't work because the cars aren't dedicated to any particular line. Eight cars that go into Jamaica yard from the R, for a layup on Monday night could be used by the yard master as an F on Tuesday. So the equipment gets mixed up well.
Steve was refering to the crews themselves. Those on the R are more likely to either find or not ignore problems.
I'LL ANSWER THAT!
It's called morale. When you have to make all those local stops all underground, and you have to deal with a timetable that has too much time, so your train is held for being early at the major gap stations, and your train runs through the Village where all the yuppies think the train belongs to them personnaly-so they can hold the doors as much as they want, and then you get to 95th St. after an hour an half, and you need to get something to drink because the AC doesn't work well in the cab, but you have to run, because there's only 12 minutes till the next trip, so hold your bladder, or leave late, then you get to go back up town and deal with a tyrant Dispatcher who's known for her disparaging treatment of crews. We call her little Napoleon. Then the heat at Continental, and having to relay your own train, AFTER the trip, rather than first, and dealing with a TSS at most express stops in Queens, and the MONOTONY OF ALL LOCAL STOPS BETWEEN FOREST HILLS AND BAY RIDGE ALL OVER AGAIN AFTER LUNCH!
How many TT's are from second trips?
I thought the "little tyrant" was on the G line on the AM. (BTW: draw no inferrence from this but she seems to like me) As a matter of fact, 75% of the delays are on the PM and about the same number are repeat crews (yes, I can query the system to list delays by train operator or even conductor). I agree that a large portion of the problem is morale. I think it also goes deeper than that. As always, I appreciate your insight.
She runs that terminal. Period. It's her's.
PM crews are more likely to bolt, huh? What about crews that are taking the train OS after their lunch? Any way to track where it's happening? At the begining of the trip as opposed to in mid-town? That info could be useful.
The tappet valves on H2C are the mose reliable I have worked with. The rubber grommets used on R-44/R-46 probably cause more brake pipe failure delays but I have never seen a coupler fail, unless it was involved in a collision. I would assume that brake pipe ruptures are contained to misc. hoses and cracked piping due to vibrations. I can see where the R line is so high with chargable delays. The F line still has the majority of tier one/senior train crew per line according to the pick. While few jobs on the R line do their second trip to Whitehall, the stress on operating crews is tremendous overall. Having that express trip on Queens Boulevard for the F is essential for the decent lunch periods they afford. Second that the R line does not pay train crews for penalty jobs as much as the F line so the R crews have two trips to accomplish in little more than 8 hours where some F crews are paid significally more; therefore they have sufficient rest between their trips. Keep your eyes on the number 2 line as I expect after one or two picks that they will get their express service back on the midnight due to late trains and ABDs. With the work gangs on this tour Im surprised that straphangers didn't put them ahead of the A line.
OK, I guess I'm in a silly mood....here's a topic:
what's your favorite (and I guess least favorite)
coupler (hhh) ?
I think the H2C was the best coupler ever made, but I
foam the most over Van Dorns.
The link-and-pin.
-Hank :)
The Classic Link & Pin.
Does anyone have any memories of actually seeing the old el cars un/coupled in the yards or wherever?
Were there any written procedures for the IRT or BRT/BMT?
I wouldn't be surprised at all if they eventually go back to express sevice on the 2 line on the midnights. The TA wants the perception that you will only have to wait 10 minutes for a train in the city. Yet if you're traveling to Brooklyn, White Plains or VC it's still going to be 20 minutes.
The headways I listed were what I want to see, not what is currently on....
I am sorry if I did not indicate this on the first post.
Nick C
Why does the NYCTA keep the Bowery St. station open? Not that many people use it and its old , dangerous and falling apart. On a weekday how many people get off or catch their train here? I never been outside the station. Hows the neighborhood?
8/15/99 3:17P
David B.
Although I don't work for the T.A. , I can't understand why they do. I guess closure will prompt protests from local politicians etc.
I was allways amazed every time the train I rode would stop there and
and a crowd of one passenger would avail themself of the service !!
The station's name is Bowery just like the street above.
Bill Newkirk
Chinese businesses, mostly; and Jewish, too. No bums that I saw. It is your typical commercial area in lower Manhattan. It is located at the corner of Bowery and Kenmare (which is the extension of Delancey) Streets.
And it's NOT falling apart as badly as the station which is two stops down the line. That would be the bear's den known as Chambers Street.
Bowery has one area where water is a problem, and that's it. The closed exits are primarily responsible for giving Bowery a forbidding look.
Wayne
The neighborhood around Bowery is essentially the same as that around the Grand Street (B/D/Q) station, though it is a little less busy. Grand Street is only about 3 or 4 blocks away.
It's ironic that Grand St. is one of the busier stations in the system, but Bowery is one of the least utilized. I suspect it's simply the case that the J/M/Z trains don't go where the residents of the area want to go.
I guess the statements above beg for the question "Has anyone seen any actual TA ridership stats by station and know how/where I might be able to view them?"
Chuck
I believe this station is the only one in Manhattan that is entered by less than 100 people per day.
On the J/M/Z line, the Bowery station is the most least used station I have ever seen. The J/Z twins skip this station entirely; only the M stops there. Back in 1987 when I used to ride the J, I have only seen ONE person that has ever gotten off there.
If they ever build the Second Ave. line south of 63rd with a conncetion to Nassau St., Bowery might get a few more customers, because the area above it would be more economically viable. As it stands, it has no connection to upper Manhattan (the only station in lower Manhattan that can make that5 dubious claim) and there's nothing above ground to justify people from Brooklyn getting off there (those coming in who use Grand on the B/D would use Canal on the J/M/Z)
I can remember during the period when the north side of the bridge was closed (86 to 88) I would see Chinese people get on at the Bowery and take the train to Canal St. for the BDQ into Brooklyn. That's about as busy as I've ever seen that station used.
How far away is the Grand St stop? I hear that they are planning to build a new exit and the north end to ease the congestion at the present exit. Perhaps a free transfer could be built between the JM at the Bowery and the BDQ at Grand, so people would have an alternate way to use the 6th ave line, as opposed to being limited to the F at Essex/Delancy. Not to mention that it would shave about 15 minutes off my ride to work in Bensonhurst!
They decided against the transfer, why I don't know. (the stations are around the corner from each other, and at the eastern end of Bowery, you can see where the Chrystie St. line is in the ceiling, just a few yards beyond the station). It would have given the people the additional access needed, and you wouldn't need a Grand St shuttle when the Manh.Bridge is closed; you just go ride one stop for 6th Av., and the other way for Canal st. and Bklyn.), PLUS, it would ease the crowds transferring from the F to the J, M, and Z, and save uptown riders having to transfer from the BDQ to the F, and give riders to/from the Southern div. another (quicker) option to get to the eastern div. In all this, it would bring more people to the station, makng it safer)
But this part of the system is just not important to them.
I got off there last September 19 to take pictures, and found the station wholly deserted. The only person I saw there was the station agent. This was Saturday morning, approx. 9:55AM.
Still, it should remain open. Perhaps a free transfer to the Grand Street station would help.
Wayne
I believe you, Wayne. The funny part is, when I was on the J train and we skipped the station, I didn't see any graffiti. Amazing. But that was years ago, it may look different now. Why does the TA keep this station open, only they know, because I have no clue.
Conditions there are not as bad as one might expect. The tile is clean, the tablets and Grecian frieze show their colors clearly. There are some places where pieces of tile have fallen away, especially on the curtain wall. The leak is at the east end, Jamaica-bound side. It's pretty nasty, but it's in one confined area.
It's not station-wide seepage like you have at Chambers Street.
I will reiterate the need for a transfer to the Grand Street IND station from Bowery. How hard would it be to build?
Wayne
The last time I saw the Bowery station, the pillars were painted red, I think they used to be blue. Anyway, your proposal of a transfer to the Grand Street station is not a bad idea. I imagine you already know that the J/Z twins empty out at Essex Street because everyone wants the F train. But we both know that the muckety mucks at the MTA are unwilling to try anything new because they're more comcerned about maximum passenger revenue than service improvements. A good idea nonetheless.
With all the talk about the Newark subway lately it got me thinking. What is going to happen to the 2 work cars that are on the property now? A Russell sweeper with pans? I am not too sure about the lineage of the other work car. Is it a cut down Compromise Roof car? That should defenitely be saved if possible
There's a burned-out sweeper...just the metal frame left.
There's also a good sweeper buried in a tunnel somewhere at
the bottom of a steep grade with a wall on one side of it.
Don't know about the line car.
That sweeper car is usually parked in the inbound spur from the old Cedar Street Subway, just before you get to Penn Station. I believe the vintage is 1912. Joe Brennan could tell us exactly.
The April '99 RailPace fine article by Matt Nawn identifies the MOW equip. as: Sweeper, #5246, mfg Russell, 1921; Snow Plow, #5245, mfg PSNJ, 1921; Flat Car, #5223, mfg PSNJ, 1917 & Wood Box Motor, #5221, mfg Russell, 1912.
Mr t__:^)
For those of you that hasn't heard, SEPTA PCC 2739 is on 4th Ave. at Union St. in Brooklyn. It is sitting in a lot next to the landmarked Public Bath building. The car is one of ten owned. Soon the other 9 will be brought to Brooklyn. If you want to see 2739. Take the M,N,R train to Union St. You can't miss it. Photos will be hard due to the angle it is positioned in.
8/16/99 7:50A
I saw that PCC months back after it arrived. Quizzed a worker who was doing clearing of debris on the property and told me that the PCC was going to be converted into a coffee shop of sorts. That's what I was told,anybody out there hear another reason for their being here??
Bill Newkirk
I had also heard that the big stone building on the corner of 4th and Union, formerly a municipal bath house, was to be converted to a Food Court of upscale restaurants and pubs. I took some photos back in March 99 but they are mostly back and side since the lot is fenced in and barbed wired. Considering the cost of acquisiton,trucking up to NYC, and that it is sitting on a section of railroad track, there's quite a few bucks sunk into this project.
According to Rev. Casey, who maintains the PCC roster (on a site linked from the main page ) someone purchased five of the cars, but 2739 is the only one that has been traced.
Of course 2739 received a NYC greeting. There is grafilthy scrawled over it.
By the way 2739 is in a grey livery with the red stripe, not the original Mar 47 paint.
This summer I had the pleasure of riding the Rio subway (www.metrorio.com.br), which holds great standard both on the stations (never before have I heard Beethoven played on a subway station!), and on the trains. To me the trains appeared to be US inspired, and a fabric plate showed that the cars were built by a brazilian company called Mafersa under license from The Budd Company, USA.
These cars are from the early eighties, and in 1998 the system received an order of 20 cars, solely built by Alstom. Although there is a 15-20 year time span between the deliveries both the interior and exterior designs seem exactly the same on the two types (minus a few refinements, such as digital route signs instead of film ones, better air conditioning etc.)
My questions are:
1. What is Mafersa? I only know they produce buses for the brazilian market, and that they haven't a web page.
2. What is or was The Budd Company. I've heard of them, but only in a historic sense?
3. Are there any other web-pages about the Rio subway than the official one?
Thanks for your attention! - JoS
I'm certainly not an expert on subway car manufacturers but I know I've seen the name before. In the late 60's when the new LIRR trains that are exactly like the present M-1 trains were bought they were made by Budd and were known in the media as the "Budd cars". (By the way, I'd sure like a Bud right now!!!)
The SARGE-my homepage
The cars that you may be talking about were the GTE's or gas-turbine electrics. They could run both with third rail or without it using the gas-turbine engines.There were a total of eight built. Four by Pullman-Standard and Garrett in 1976 (4001-4004) and four built by the Budd Company (4005-4008). They were used on the LIRR and in the eighties four were used on the Harlem and Hudson Lines as straight electrics. I do not know there current dispositon. Although they looked very much like M-1's they had both low and high level platform capability.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Jimmy, I'm assuming from your questions and your email address that you are not posting from the US. A brief history: the Edward G. Budd Manufacturing Company was founded in 1912 as a manufacturer of truck and automobile bodies. Its achievements included many advances in welding and automotive design, most notably the unit body, or unibody, method of frameless construction, patented in 1927, and the Shotweld process for electrically spot-welding stainless steel, patented in 1929. These two patents were the foundation of Budd's success when it entered the railcar business in 1931. The business, originally located in Philadelphia, constructed a defense plant in nearby Red Lion in 1942-43 and moved all of their operations there by 1948. At the Philadelphia site they had constructed some of the pioneering diesel streamliners of the 1930's, most notably the CB&Q's Zephyr series, Reading's Crusader, and a fleet of stainless steel cars for the Santa Fe. Had the war not intervened, Budd might easily have bested Pullman-Standard in the passenger car market.
After WWII, rail passenger traffic began its precipitous decline, and the railroads began looking for a more economical way to handle passenger traffic. In response to this need, Budd introduced the Rail Diesel Car, or RDC. Between 1949 and 1962 a little over 400 of these were built, including 29 for Brazil. Budd also built a large number of stainless steel passenger cars during this time period, as well as commuter coaches and subway cars for various cities.
Budd made the decision to exit the railcar business in 1970, but was unable to find a buyer for its by-then-unprofitable division. It continued to produce railcars for commuter agencies and Amtrak for the next decade. Finally, in 1987, the Canadian firm Bombardier Corporation purchased the passenger car designs, tooling, and related equipment, and the Red Lion plant closed for the last time.
Hope that provides some of the answers anyway.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Budd's last transit order was the combined order placed in 1981 for 60 married pair sets for the Baltimore MTA and Miami Metrorail, dlevered in 1982. The follow-up order of 40 sets for MTA in 1984 was built by TransitAmerica (A Budd Spin-off?). I don't believe Miami ever ordered any more cars.
Ummm.....
M-3 in 1987?
[Budd's last transit order was the combined order placed in 1981 for 60 married pair sets for the Baltimore MTA and Miami Metrorail, dlevered in 1982.]
Excuse me, what do you call the 600-car order of 2600's delivered to the CTA from 1981 - 1985? About half the cars carry Budd builder plates and the rest are marked for Transit America. As these cars go through their "mid-life" rehabbing, the builder plate now reads "Built by the Budd Company and remanufactured by GEC-Alstom - 1999"
Jim K.
Chicago
The current R32 builder plate specifies Budd as the original manufacturer and Morrison-Knudsen Co. (MKCo) as the rebuilder, circa 1988 or thereabouts. They did a damn fine job on this GOH. It will most certainly assure the R32 a road life of 40 years, and if NYCT goes ahead and grants them yet ANOTHER overhaul, they will make fifty.
They certainly do NOT look or act their age (although I am sure that those who work with them may disagree with this). I've never been stuck on one since GOH. And Saturday - #3376 on the "C" - ICE COLD.
Stone cold! Delightful! Phase II GOH. Brought back memories of the R42s when new, thirty years ago. Colder than any other train I rode all day.
Wayne
Here, here. Let's hope the R-32s don't suffer the same fate as the units they initially replaced, the Triplexes. Premature retirement, that is. If I may say so, they look damn good for their age.
I have a few articles from the Chicago Tribune when the 2600-series order was placed. It was split in half, 300 cars with an option for 300 more. One highly-touted aspect was the fact that the A/C for these cars consisted of commercially available parts, as spare parts for the older 2000-series cars were becoming more difficult to acquire.
Budd also bid on the new South Shore cars when they were originally ordered; however, Sumitomo got the contract.
Anon_e_mouse -
Very good short history on the company that made the stainless steel rail car possible.
It is hard to believe that at some time in the not-so-distant future there will be no more fluted stainless steel rail cars left for us to see or photograph.
Jim K.
Chicago
What's the point of photographing something if there already are photographs? And aren't there museums that keep old railcars in use and on display?
Dear Mr. Eugenius D -
Is it your practice to always take an opposing point of view?
Some railfans enjoy taking pictures. What's your bag, critizing those that do?
Jim K.
Chicago
No, I seem to happen to have views that are directly opposite those of many here. If you photograph a car is in a museum, is it any different than photographing it in service. You know that the cars will leave service, every car will leave service, you have 40 years to make pictures of each car, and many years left for the cars talked about in this thread (like the R-32).
What's your bag, criticizing my Nom de Plume?
I just got back from Chicagoland and the trip has generated a Chicago El question.
South of the 95th Street station and yard, Interstate Highway 94, formerly the Calumet Expressway and now the Bishop Ford Freeway, maintains its extra-wide double-divided median in the same style that separates it from the Dan Ryan Line north of that point for about another 1.8 miles to mile marker 65.2. Was there ever a plan to extend the line down to somewhere about 100 to 105th street or towards the Illinois port?
You are correct, the highway was built with an extension in mind. There has been talk over the years of an extension to 103rd near Stony Island. It may or may not happen. Like everything in Chicago, there is always a lot of talk before things really get done.
At lease someone was thinking and made the provision for a rail right-of-way in the median of the highway. Some of the many bus routes currently feeding the busy 95th Street Station could be routed into a "new" 103rd Street Terminal.
Jim K.
Chicago
I-57 south of there also looks as though it could accomadate rappid transit in the center.
Oh, I forgot the "Bonus Question". It turns out that, currently, there is no way to get from LIRR Diesel Territory to where I work (Union Square) with less than three trains. For ten points, who can list _all_ of the three train combinations one can use to go between Roslyn and Union Square during peak commuting hours.
To keep the number of combinations reasonable, here are some qualifications:
1) Maximum walk, 1 manhattan ave, or 2.5 city blocks. Any direct subway transfers are OK.
2) Each distinct route requires that you go over different trackage, I.E. changing at Mineola as opposed to Jamaica doesn't count as a different routing. Similarly, using the N as opposed to the R from Herald Sq to Union Sq does not make a distinct routing
I know there's quite a few different ways to have a three seat ride.
Here's a two train idea. Drive your car to Port Washington. Take the lirr to Penn walk one block to Herald Sq. and take the N/R.
Diesels are more fun!!!!
1)Roslyn to Long Island City
#7 from Vernon/Jackson to G.C.
Lex to 14St
2)
Roslyn to Hunterspoint
#7 to G.C.
Lex to 14St
3)Roslyn to Jamaca, Change for electric to Penn
Bway local to 14Street
4)Roslyn to Jamaica, electric to Flatbush
BMT (N,R etc) to 14Street
5)Same as #4 but take Lex IRT @ Flatbush
6)Roslyn to Jamaica
"E" to Lex
Lex to 14 Street
6)Roslyn to Jamaica
"E" to 14 Street
Canarsie line to Union SQ
7)Roslyn to Jamaica
"J" to City Hall
Lex to 14 Street 8)Roslyn to Hunterspoint
#7 to Queensborough Plaza
"R" to 14 Street
9) Same as above but Roslyn to Long Island City and #7 from Vernon to Q.P.
10)Roslyn to Jamaica
"J" to Bway Junction
"L" to Union SQ
11)Roslyn to Jamaca
Change for Bklyn electric to ENY
"L" to Union Sq
12) Roslyn to Hunterspoint
"7" to Times Sq
Bway train to Union Sq
13)Same as above but to LIC/Vernon Jackson
I'm sure there's more but my wife wants to use the phone!!!
The Sarge-my homepage
my tranbuff page
Jeff,
Pretty good. You got some interesting ones that I wasn't thinking of: Like the LIRR -> Jamaica, J/Z to Broadway East New York, L to Union Square, the Times Sq variants, and the ones which include reverse moves on the 7 to queensboro plaza to get onto the N.
Also, you could take the E at Jamaica and then get the R at several places along Queens Blvd, etc.
Any interesting ones we missed? I guess you can take LIRR to Jamaica, electric to Forest Hills, and then R to Union square also.
I usually do LIRR -> HP ave #7 -> GCT Lex -> USQ in the AM, and in the PM, either N/R, walk to 7ave for IRT, or walk to Penn for the return trip..
I forgot the "R" goes to Continental. That leads to more possibilities, such as Roslyn to Hunterspoint OR LIC with the "7" back to 74/Roosevelt for the "R",etc.
See ya all after midnight, gotta go to work. Although I'm driving today I work at the Gates Av Station (81Pct at 30 Ralph Av) on the "J/Z" and come from Mineola Station. Think of the combinations!!!!The SARGE-my homepage
Sorry to keep asking these questions which are old hat to the experts, but here goes. I was near Brooklyn College on Saturday for the first time in over twenty years. Just south of Ingersoll Hall, there is what looks like an abanoned ROW which runs east-west in an open cut under Bedford Avenue. I guess it once held LIRR trackage, either a freight line or some long discontinued passenger branch. 1) What did I see? 2) Assuming this ROW runs from Bay Ridge out east, is it open cut construction all the way? I had forgotten this was there, and if it's open cut, obviously it's visible from most North-South avenues (CI, Ocean, MacDonald, etc,) well hidden though it may be. This sort of thing fascinates me, and I'm very curious.
Are you sure it was abandoned? I think that the LIRR bay ridge branch (currently used for freight only) is right around there -- near Bklyn College. Of course, if there were no tracks in the ROW you describe, then it must be something else, because the Bay ridge branch _does_ see active freight use. (and has recently been used to bring cars to/from the BMT eastern division.)
Well, to be honest, there was so much overgrown vegetation (maybe on the sides of the cut) that I just assumed it was abandoned. Just 'cause I couldn't see tracks doesn't mean they're not in there. Thanks.
It is the Bayridge line, runs around Ave H or I I beleive closer towards BayRidge. The F goes over it and the N runs next to it. When freight moves though its 5mph since someone has to ride the fender to look for obstuctions/broken rail. The open cut is a residental dumping ground for years.
Lou, actually, one of the crew -- the pilot -- also has to ride the front to make sure that no one has indeed STOLEN the tracks along the cut part of the ROW (This has actually happenned on a couple of occasions).
I did a walking tour of the enbankment section of the Bay Ridge back in the spring. That's the much cleaner eastern end that goes from approximately Albany Ave. to Livonia Ave.(where it passes the NYCT Linden Shops). There was perhaps one homeless encampment along the whole section that I saw.
Once the weather gets cooler I might attempt to walk (or trudge?!) through the cut section past Brooklyn College going west toward Bay Ridge....who knows.
Doug aka BMTman
(Walking the Bay Ridge) I might join you for that one. It would be a good November hike, with subway access on both ends.
Larry, I would appreciate the company -- the more the merrier as the old saying goes.
I will give you (and all interested parties) at least two weeks advance notice sometime before we start to get snowflakes.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug,
E-Mail me when you do the walk. I'll go with you.
Saturdays might not be good. Bet. 7-11 am on
Saturdays a freight comes through Parkville jct.
(ShopRite).Unless you don't mind shooting it.
However, thet might call in tresspassers to the PD.
Where I work is right at the former Parkville
interchange and even though illegal dumpers get away with it. I have seen cops watch for people down there.
MARK
I've lived in Brooklyn most of my life and have never seen a train down there. I'd be interested in knowing of any scheduled runs made down there. Sat 7am to 11am might be good, but another, more specific time would be better. I'll use a shopping trip to shop-rite as an excuse to get out of the house, since I shop there anyway.
Is this the place to say: Gee I wish they would convert that ROW into a light rail line from the 62 St./New Utrecht Ave. station of the B/M/N lines across Brooklyn past the F, D/Q, 2/5, to the Canarsie Line. I have even read of proposals to run such a LR line up through Queen along barely used or abandoned LIRR tracks and freight tracks up to LaGuardia via the Penny Branch (maybe) and the upper BQE area. The tracks are shown on all the Hagstrom maps of NYC. Then again people were wishing for a cross-Bklyn line when I was a boy many many years ago.
Sounds like the LRV line being set up from Camden to Trenton. Freight at night. LRV during the day.
Yes, AAMOF, I believe it was Transportation Alternatives that came up with the light rail proposal for the old Bay Ridge ROW. That was at a time when freight deliveries were at an all-time low (mid-80s) and the wrectched conditions warranted some kind of turn-around proposal.
However, with the renewed freight movements on the line it would seem less likely that the light-rail passenger concept will ever see the light of day.
And the tragic part of the Bay Ridge, is that if it had been made a light-rail line years ago it would have been the most direct route to Queens for east-Brooklynites. And not to mention it would have served as a unifying element to tie all of the borough's mostly north-south running subway lines together. Too bad.
Doug aka BMTman
I liked the two-lane truckway proposal myself. Trucks could have circulated around Brooklyn without going through local streets.
Question -- how wide is the ROW? Wide enough for two light rail tracks and a freight track? Perhaps our walking tour this fall will tell. We can bring a long rope and stretch it across from time to time.
Larry, that's a good question. Perhaps The "Transit Professional" can help us out here?
During my trip the Flatbush/Rugby/East New York section was wide enough definitely for a 3-track setup. I even found evidence that the line was 4-tracks at some points.
I'll bring one of those expandable tape-measures along.
Doug aka BMTman
From Hell Gate to Fresh Pond was two and now one track.
It was four track from Fresh Pond all the way to where it descends into the open cut. Two track from there until the interchange yard in Bay Ridge. The interchange yard used to be four track and a lot longer. Ie: the expanse of land alongside the Sea Beach.
I don't think it would be easy to replace the track that's gone with the pipe line that's buried there now.
I can't see any sign of the passenger service that once ran there except for the one platform that still exists on the west end of the ENY tunnel.
Thanks. I also wanted to let our fellow SubTalkers know that the remaining platform on the Bay Ridge LIRR can actually be seen (partially) from the Atlantic Ave. station of the Canarsie L. That location would have been a major stop -- connecting with both the Flatbush Branch of the LIRR, the Canarsie/14th Street line, and the former Fulton Street El.
Maybe some future trip will include this relic from LIRR's rich past.
Doug aka BMTman
From what I can see from my track maps, the Bay Ridge line was at one time or another 4 tracks from near Fresh Pond all the way to Manhattan Beach Crossing (just west of Ocean Ave. where 2 tracks turned south to Manhattan Beach), then 2 tracks to McDonald (Gravesend) Ave. then 3 tracks to 52nd St. and 18th Ave., then 2 to 14th Ave., 5 tracks to 8th Ave., then 6 to 3rd. Ave, finally fanning out to 30 tracks at the Bay Ridge terminal!
To put a light rail line down there and maintain the possibility of freight service, which a lot of people are committed to, you'd need three tracks the whole way. Of course, it doesn't matter how many tracks were there, just how much room. What would you need to have a freight train pass between two LRVs at 40 mph each? 36 feet?
One other problem with the LRV. You'd have to have stairways down from the street level. With handicapped access laws, that's a no-no. Two elevators at every stop would make it very expensive.
Stephen Sanders, the General Superintendent of NY&A Rwy. ordered that trains be run to the Bay Ridge interchange only on Tuesdays and Thursdays. Usually in the afternoon. The Yard job that covers Bay Ridge has to switch out the industry on the Brooklyn branches first thing in the morning. Of course sometimes they head down there unnanounced.
Transit Pro, that's what I always thought. Commuting on the L train, I will occasionally see an NY&A diesel moving some boxcars and tankers north-bound in the afternoon rush-hour.
Two Thursdays ago I even saw the NY&A doing a manevour over by Sutter Ave. where there is a big scrap-metal recycling client. Two gondolas were being readied for coupling to the diesel #105 on the siding, while a train of tank cars connected to LIRR diesel #261 was waiting on the main line. Too bad I wasn't carrying my camera!
The planned Bay Ridge walking tour probably wouldn't encounter any NY&A movements since I'm certain they don't run on weekends.
Doug aka BMTman
I have seen people working on the tracks at about 8:00-9:00 AM by the Fort Hamiliton Pkwy station of the N line. And almost every day, I see tankers, boxcars and some strange cars just sitting on the tracks when the N tran comes above ground going Coney Island Bound.
Also, the cops do sometimes search down there, because I have seen NYPD mobile command units by the opening at 9th Av/62nd St and a few cop cars, unless they were looking for a dead body or something. By Bay Ridge, the homeless people live under the bridges, and one of them lived in a house made of doors. I havent seen that little house in a while, but there is a lot of garbage down there (by Bay Ridge at least)
A friend of mine who used to write for Bay News Papers had to go down to the Bay Ridge ROW over by the N when the cops found the body of a dead teenage girl. This was back in the early 1980's.
One of the reasons I didn't venture any further west on my Bay Ridge stroll during the spring was the fact that I saw garbage accumulating more and more as the embankment started to turn into a cut (over by Albany Ave.). That's why I perferred the Flatbush/East New York section. The embankment had less of an accumulation of garbage -- and thankfully less rats! -- since it is naturally harder to dump on an incline. Also, I encountered one homeless "camp" and it looked unoccupied at the time.
Doug aka BMTman
I saw the same thing after we exited the tunnel near 8th Avenue. There were police cars and work crews all over the place. Come to think of it, it would be a place where hobos could congregate, but I saw barbed wire all over the surrounding area. How could they get to that area in the first place. You don't think they went in from 59th Street into the tunnel to where the route enters daylight? A possibility.
The scrap customer is Brooklyn Resources. They out ship to NYCH using cars owned by NYCH. The tanks are either LPG coming or going to NYCH for interchange. The NY&A has several customers who reccieve LPG. All in Suffolk County. There's only one other customer who gets a tank car. CBS foods. They're right at the entrance to the ENY tunnel. You can see them from the Canarsie line by Wilson Av. station. The cars they get can be told by the "Cargill" logo. The LPG cars have 1278 on the hazardous materiels placard.
Tank cars have a unique handling style. When you stop one, a second later you get kicked in the rear. The liquid sloshing around. It will actually shove a locomotive.
Visit Bay Ridge line it has some information on the line, including stations.
A colleague here got a hold of a advance list of forthcomming MCs:
- Now = Mets/Topps, set of six ... am still trying to get the 6th
(they're only made as "Fun Pass" avail at TA Museums (& Topps if you buy lots of stuff)
- Now = PT-1, four versions
- Aug = Amex/US Open, four versions, ref. prev. Sept '98 (#63)
- Sep = CitiBank MasterCard
- Sep = Cont. Airlines, three versions
- Oct = Amex/Blue Card
- Oct = Cont. Airlines, three versions
- Nov = Cont. Airlines, three versions
Commemorative, that's what they call the non-adv. MCs
- Dec = Then & Now at Rockefeller Ctr. (don't know if they'll resell the same one for the third year)
Mr t__:^)
>- Now = Mets/Topps, set of six ... am still trying to get the 6th <
As of yesterday, the Museum store in Times Square had all six
(I completed my set). I am sure the same can be said of the Grand Central store.
Allan, Thanks for the update ! When I went to Times Sq. Wed. they didn't have any kind of Fun Pass. You would think that they would at least have a bunch with plain backs for the tourist vs. us collectors.
After all the HPEM (TA MC encoding shop) makes them up to expire about 13 months in the future, so what's prevents them stocking up ?
BTW, my friend sent his dad over there last night, so we too now have a set of six :-) Now I have to make some trips to use up the value !
Mr t
I am looking to start a small group of Metrocard collectors. Where people collecting special metrocards can meet and swap/sell their extra cards I have appx. 90% of the specials with many dupes. Are there other Metrocard collectors out there? E-Mail me at: MARK618@webtv.net for more info...Mark
There seems to be a small group on this site, probaly about a dozen or two. This includes many out-of-town friends that I've met.
My best trade of all time was with a friend in Tokyo. He wanted old TA tokens. I got Tokyo transit tickets & cookies (shrimp & seaweed).
Mr t__:^)
My PT-1 cards all look the same. What are the varieties and where were they available?
Also, has anyone seen the Mets Fun Passes at any MetroCard vendors? The guy at the check cashing place on Chanbers between Broadway and Church said that he ordered them but they never arrived. Several stores have told me over the past year that the order special cards but the don't come or they only get one variety.
On the other hand, a newspaper/lotto/magazine store on Church north of Park told me he has the Millenium card in $15.
8/18/99 12:08A
As far as the NY Mets funpasses are concerned,the New York Transit Museum gift shops have all 6!! Don't wait,cause once they're gone,that's it!!
Bill Newkirk
- Mets set of six ... I think are avail only at two sites, TA Museum & Topps (if you buy lots of stuff). Bill is right this is a limited run made as 24 hour unlim (Fun Pass) only. It would appear that Topps & TA shared the cost, i.e. TA for tourest development.
- PT-1 set of four ... eye don't even know what PT-1 stands for. The e-mail we got from MC Prod Devel (sales) has just bullets, no detail.
- Millenium set of ? ... I think they're only made in $17 weekly unlim
but $15 value MIGHT be. I have one, it's "11th Century Journeys - Crossing the Channel to Normandy"
Mr t__:^)
I called the Museum shop at GCT this afternoon, and they said they had all the Mets cards in ample numbers. I will try them tomorrow. I can also get a count on the millennium set.
The station agent at 59th-Columbus Circle (58 Street & 8th) thought the MVMs had the Channel to Normandy "canoe" card in it. I would have given it a shot, but I already have too much money tied up in cards that will take me months to use (including two Channel to Normandy 7-day cards).
Any word on dates of sale and stations for the upcoming cards would be appreciated. I will post anything I learn.
While driving home on the Belt last Saturday, I saw what looked like Triplexes in the Coney Island Yard. Are there any there?
Yup, that's probably exactly what you saw. There should be two sets of triplexes in CI yard, along with 4 Lo-V's, a handful of prewar IND cars (R1-9's), and a couple of other cars. These are the cars owned by Rail Preservation Corp, and used periodically on fantrips.
Why are these museum cars not owned directly by the TA?
[ Why are these museum cars not owned directly by the TA? ]
I'm not involved with the TA, the museum, or RPC, and I'm not 100% sure of these facts. It is my understanding, however, that:
1) They're _not_ museum cars.
2) They're privately owned by the RPC,
3) If the RPC didn't buy them, they likely would have been scrapped.
I don't know the exact circumstances under which this arrangement came about, though, and I don't know too much about RPC other than they own the cars. (3) above is just speculation, though.
I think that some RPC members(officers?) are around here, and may be able to correct me, elaborate or otherwise comment.
If the TA is short of space why are privately owned cars being stored on public property. Does RPC pay rent?
Mike plays his cards close to the vest. He prefers we do also. I will clarify this though. Not all the equipment stored at CIY belongs to RRPC. TMNY owns some also. The section of the yard where they sit is surplus to the TA anyway. It was built at a time when the system had many cars out of service for repair. These cars being married pairs left spare OK mates out in the yard. Those short tracks out in front of the overhaul shop were designed to hold them. Because the half mates were unable to be used for anything else. It was also handy for Wrecked cars too.
Since maintainence has improved so much, the track has little use today except for museum cars. We refer to it as "Jurassic Park" It's ideal for museum cars because it' close to the shop and easy to watch for vandals and thieves. Thieves hit those cars hard for collectibes.
[We refer to it as "Jurassic Park" It's ideal for museum cars because it' close to the shop and easy to watch for vandals and thieves. Thieves hit those cars hard for collectibes.]
This begs a question ... the tracks you refer to are well inside the yard, vs. close to fences, so who is getting to these cars, employees?
If it's kids from the neighborhood, how do they get in ... the fences looked formable to me. Aren't the gates manned 24 hours a day ?
Or are they walking the tracks to get around the fence ?
Mr t__:^)
They may be employees, or simply buffs who managed to get in. It's not hard to do so. While 6398 was there we lost air gauges and horns, builders plates and all sorts of stuff. Someone even sabotaged our air compressor once!
Slip some insulating strips under the wheels and hotwire the chassis to the third rail. The vandalism will stop. :-)
[Lawyer repellant: the above is not a serious suggestion. It is a joke. Go sue someone who deserves it.]
Actually the doors are chained shut and the windows sealed. It still doesn't keep out the marauders.
In other words, RIM SHOT!!
re: electrifying heritage cars to prevent vandalism
In other words, RIM SHOT!!
Umm...call me ignorant, but I have no idea what that means. Is it a New York/US thing us forigners wouldn't understand?
CH
from Toronto, Canada ... a city with only three subway lines. And no expresses.
The NYCTA Museum Fleet has periodically been attacked by TA
management. Since the "mission" of the TA is to provide
passenger rail service, having a museum fleet is viewed as
anything from a minor annoyance to a real problem. For a long
time the Transit Museum was called the Transit Exhibit and
was merely a division of the TA. In addition to the two tracks
at Court Street, there was more equipment beyond the gate between
there and H-S station. During the last great purge the Transit
Exhibit was forced to dispose of most of that equipment.
Branford picked up a Lo-V, Seashore got a pair of R1-9s,
and Mike Hanna's group, RPC, got most of the rest...that includes
two D units (the third is a Museum Collection unit), 4 Lo-V motors,
1 World's Fair Lo-V, and a bunch of R1-9s.
AFAIK, RPC is properly incorporated as a non-profit. I am not aware
of whether or not storage charges are paid to the TA, however,
the RPC D units and Lo-Vs are periodically supplied to the Transit
Museum for use in excursions, so perhaps the two values balance out.
Since the last great purge, the Transit Exhibit became a
Museum, and although it is still wholly controlled by the MTA,
it is no longer an operating division of the TA. I'm happy
to see that, because it improves the long-term chances of Court
Street surviving. I worry about the cars out in Coney Island.
I'm happy to see them preserved in their home system, and the
current TA administration appreciates their value, but that
can change all of a sudden.
I know of at least 2 regular SubTalk readers who are involved in
RPC, although I don't think they have any official position.
Perhaps they'll comment further.
When was the "Last Great Purge" of the Transit Museum and what precipitated it?
I remember during the Dinkins Administration there was pressure to close the museum, which resulted in a compromise where the museum entrance fee was raised. But I though that pressure came from the City, not the TA.
I haven't bee to the museum since the late 80's. What's left as far as display cars? What was added if any?
It's full from one end of the station to the other. As to the specific roster I'll defer to others on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, right now they have a Q-car, a BMT Standard (#2208), a Triplex unit (varies, last time I saw it was #6095), at least one, maybe two Lo-Vs, R-1 #100, R-4 #484, R-7 GOH #1575, R11 #8013, an R12 (don't remember the number), R15 #6239, R16 #6387 (fairly recent addition), R17 #6609, R30 #8507 (single car), R33 #9306. There is also Car G (on loan) and some flat cars and a steeple cab too. R10 #3184 and WF Lo-V #5655 are in CI Yard, need work and have yet to make their appearance.
Wayne
How about 1404,1273 and 1407, the re-rebuilt gate cars. Are they still on display or have they been relegated to Coney Island?
The rebuilt BUs are still there. I was conducting tours in them on Sunday as a matter of fact.
-Stef
The Museum Roster describes what's at the Transit Museum (items labeled "NYTM") and what's owned by RPC. I didn't know that 2 of the Triplexes were RPC units. Does anyone know which ones?
-Dave
Jeff H. was making reference to the cars that were on the outside at C.I. 6019ABC and 6112ABC. I honestly didn't know this until Jeff bought it up. I was always under the impression that the D Types were MTA property. Unfortunately someone hasn't given them the attention they need.
-Stef
Last I heard there were Three sets of triplex - #6019, #6095 and #6112, A, B and C withal. Perhaps one of them is having its body work tended to, let's hope so.
Wayne
One set's in the Transit Museum, the other two are in the yard. The set in the TM is owned by the TA, I believe.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The one at the museum is probably 6095. Oh and BTW, that's BMT standard 2204 at the museum. 2208 has passed on to that happy subway yard in the sky.
Thanks to Dave for updating the Newark Subway field trip, I found this on my last pass through Newark Penn Station. New Jersey Transit has officially announced the dates that the Newark City Subway will be closed to convert over to pantograph operation. It has been closed most weekends so far with Bus service replacing now:
The PCCs will not operate Saturday, August 21 through Monday, September 6, 1999. Substitute bus service will be provided until reopening on Tuesday, September 7 (the day after the Labor Day holiday).
Thereafter, the NJT brochure indicates, there will be closures evenings and weekends into the fall to complete more work. The project is projected to be completed in the Spring, 2000 at which time the new light rail vehicles will enter service.
I have seen a number of the new cars at the under-construction Hudson - Bergen Lightrail shops. Probably those slated for Newark.
Same new LRV will ply both routes. Mr t__:^)
8/16/99 5:16P
I was told a while back that the new LRV's for the Newark City Subway will be similar to the HBLRT units. Recently I heard the're one in the same. If they are different,what are the differences?
Bill Newkirk
There are no differences. They are one and the same.
NJT says they're saving money by standardizing light rail cars. They were able to buy the new cars for both Hudson-Bergen and the Newark Subway on one purchase order.
Michael
The Newark PCCs already have their pantographs installed, a few feet forward of the trolley poles.
I hope NJT retained the old trolley poles in case the PCC's are used in tourist service elsewhere. I heard the old fare registers above the operator were all discarded.That's what I heard.
Bill Newkirk
The poles are still there because today should be the last day of trolley pole operation. When the line reopens in September we'll know if the poles have been retained.
I´m working on a documentary about the "Miss Subway"´s. Can anybody help me with informations (all of what might be of interest). Did anybody remember the time when "Miss Subway" was chosen? Is there anybody who knows a former "Miss Subway". It would be of enourmous help !
Thank You and excuse my bad english - I´m from germany
Maja
The only Miss Subway I've ever heard of is Ellen of Ellen's, the popular eatery next to City Hall (on Broadway just south of Chambers). There are pictures of various Miss Subways in the windows of the restaurant. Perhaps being from Germany, you don't already know about Ellen. In that case, I suggest trying to talk to her. She also has another restaurant in Times Square with a subway theme -- I stumbed into in by accident once but cannot remember where it is.
"Miss Subways" (plural noun) was a kind of down home rolling beauty contest that lasted into the '60s. I don't know when it started.
Each month another young woman had her picture and a short bio featured on car cards throughout the system.
There were also periodic car cards with newsy but mostly unimportant stuff called "The Subway Sun," though I seem to recall one heralded the opening of the Rockaway Line.
One which I especially recall showed cobwebs growing at a sleepy rural RR station. The tag line was "There Are No Crowds in Podunk. But Who Wants to Live in Podunk?"
At the time some of the NY papers reported that the people in Podunk were insulted, and the TA responded that they meant to insult. Podunk was identified as being in Illinois or Iowa, I think--I forget which. But when I tried to do an internet search for Podunk, I could not find any specific place as being Podunk. Apparently it comes from a word derivd from Indians in New England and their are areas of NY and MA identified as "Podunk." No heartland.
BTW, "The Subway Sun" went back to IRT days.
The restaurant (well, really a coffee shop) is at Broadway and 51st St. (southeast corner), and it has "Miss Subways" posters in the window.
8/17/99 12:57A
I believe the owner of that restaurant is named Ellen (last name escapes me) was a former Miss Subways
Bill Newkirk
Last night, I watched a PBS fundraiser special called "A Walk up Broadway", about New York's famous thoroughfare.
In three segments, they gave treatment to the 1904 IRT.
When they were in the City Hall/Park Place area, they mentioned the abandoned station under City Hall.
Next, they went into detail about how the IRT changed "The Boulevard", the area of Broadway around 72nd St, and how with the faster trips available between downtown and that area, wealthier people began to move in.
Finally, he went into a great descrption of the Broadway viaduct at 125th St., mentioning the fact that the topography changes, the beautiful ironwork and it's impact on the neighborhood.
The program itself was pretty good, going into detail about every site along Broadway from Bowling Green to Inwood.
When I traveled to Rooselvelt Field last week. I saw tracks theat ran adjacent to the Meadowbrook parkway. There was a grade crossing near the mall. The tracks continues from west to east. Looks like it was abandoned a few years ago. Doesn't look dirty. The sides of the track looks clean. Anyone know what this line was or if it is still in service? Was it part of some sort of abandoned branch line?
You probably saw the freight tracks that lead from the Hempstead line E/B on the abandoned Central Line. The tracks come off the Central Line N/B across Stewart Av towards the industrial area by Roosevelt Field. I understand when the raceway first opened there were passenger trains to the trotters. The tracks to the trainyard at Stewart Av are still in use-Ringling Bros. parks the Circus Train there when they are at the Nassau Coliseum. Maybe the NY&Atlantic will revive those tracks once again. By the way, on the Meadowbrook just south of Stewart if you look to your right you can see an old abandoned RR trestle (you gotta look for it among overgrowth weeds) from the days the Central Line went through Eisenhower Pk (then Salisbury) A great site is about the central line is:
www.hempsteadplains.com/CNTRLRR2.htm
The SARGE-my homepage
Just a side note about the remains of the Central Branch.
The section Jeff described is known in the LIRR ETTs as "Garden City Secondary," length 2.0 miles.
There is another surviving piece of the Central Branch--Beth junction to Babylon--has passenger and freight service (but no passenger stations). The LIRR hopes to double track and electrify this piece.
Do they plan to add a station in West Babylon or North Lindenhurst?
Wayne (West Babylon NY)
No mention of any station on the line.
South Farmingdale Station was at Rte 110. That's long since gone. There was a station at Wellwood way way back in the past, but now I forget the name.
I don't think the people along the r-o-w in West Bab will be any too happy when they get wind that third rail is to be installed near those level crossings.
I have been to New York several times, and I have riden
every subway line in the system. I would like to ride the
buses in the outer boroughs to sightsee and basically
joy
ride. Can anyone give me what routes I can ride that
would be definitve of that borough and what neighborhoods
to avoid I already have NYCTA
bus maps circa 1998.
Thanks
R110a 8001 trailing was spotted Monday 8/16 2pm, moving from the Astoria bound N to the Flushing bound 7 tracks at Queensboro Plaza. I only caught the tail end of the train, but she was sqeeeeling through the interlocking and we never hear that during the day (that is what caught my attention). The train appeared that it was not in service, no pax and no lights in the cars were on (or it has better tinting then most subway cars). There was someone in a TA blue shirt in the endcar's cab but he did not appear to be operating since I could see both hands >G<.
Was it a full complement of R110a's switched to the #7 line, or was there another set involved?
I thought the R64 are going to the 7. Were the plans changed?
Dave, you mean R62 not R64. All i heard MTA going to put R142 on # 7 line & im not sure MTA going to put R62 on #7 line. Let wait & see later this year or next year.
Peace Out
Meaney
I was just wondering if anyone from this site that lives in Chicago will be attending or knows about the RTA meeting in October.
It is a meeting that I believe is not open to the public, but rather to businesses that are invited.
My father works at a Metal Perforating Plant in Chicago as the Plant Manager and got invited. Me and him will be attending the meeting.
At this meeting the CTA, Metra, and Pace will be announcing their future plans and ideas.
I hope to hear about the Douglas Blue Line and Brown Line projects from the CTA and crossings being removed from Metra. I admit that even though I live in the suburbs, I rarely use our Pace
(Suburban Bus Division of the CTA) service and don't know what to expect from them.
Anyway, I think it is at the Hilton or another downtown Chicago Hotel and I was just wondering if anyone had any more info or will be attending.
BJ
Any place on the "M" from Metropolitan Ave to Myrtle Ave/Broadway which does pose problems for 75 foot cars?
Also, are there any other places where there pose problems for 75 foot cars from Marcy Ave to Court St/Boro Hall on the "M"?
Nick C
The sharp curve where the M switches off from the J line north of Myrtle Ave, plus 2 wicked curves on the northbound track just south of Chambers St. and Canal St.
The switchback curve north of Chambers is probably not a problem for 75-footers, sharp as it is because it's in open tunnel. You're correct in noting that the "S" curve just south of Chambers is probably too tight. That curve is in the top five sharpest systemwide. There has also been discussion of a potential sideswipe hazard for 75-foot cars on the short curve east of Essex Street because the tracks are close. The grade curve out of Myrtle is definitely TOO tight.
Wayne
8/17/99 1:24A
Re: 75 footers on the eastern division. I have a slide taken with a telephoto lens in April 1981 of two R-46'S
in the back of East New York yard. What they were doing there till this day is beyond me. The two cars have yellow stickers underneath the number boards (pre-GOH) in the shape of a "T". One car's number is #855. Only two cars show here and I do not have equipment yet to post this slide. Perhaps in the future.
Bill Newkirk
Perhaps they were being tested for use on the Eastern Division. At that time (1981) the R46 was in the middle of an awful period of breakdowns and mechanical difficulties, which led the MTA to temporarily remove them from service on the crowded E/F lines in 1980. IIRC, they were limited to rush hour service on the CC line only. Perhaps they were trying to see if these unreliable cars would be capable of operating on the least used lines in the system, like the J and M. Anway, this is just an educated guess.
I kinda like the idea of my favorite subway car (R46) running on the train I use he most (J). If the A line wanted to graciously gave the J line it's R44's, i'd have to say "Thanks, but no thanks" LOL
I wish you could sell copies of this slide to the NY Div. ERA. People there claim to have pictures of a bicentennial fantrip (of the bicentennial R-46 set) to Canarsie (and also supposedly Metroplitan), but noone is digging them out to sell or use in the slide shows, for some reason.
The curve south of Chambers can't be a problem, as 75ft cars have operated past there (N and D reroutes in the past, and movie filming at Chambers). Also, on the curve east of Essex, the tracks are separating at that point, so there is no danger of sideswipes. That was the curve on the east end of the bridge, but this has now been rebuilt, apparently with a wider radius. I hope they at least test them on the new tracks.
I have never seen a single rerouted R68 D or N train operate anywhere along the Nassau St line. As far as movies go, all that I've seen that were filmed at chambers St. within the last 20 years used 60 foot cars. What movie did you see the 75 footers in?
I was on a train of R-68s once that went into the Nassau Street Line because the T/O took the wrong lineup. We got kicked off at Broad Street.
David
[I have never seen a single rerouted R68 D or N train operate anywhere along the Nassau St line. As far as movies go, all that I've seen that were filmed at chambers St. within the last 20 years used 60 foot cars. What movie did you see the 75 footers in?]
Accidents are possible. I'm curious as to know if there ever was an intentional re-route of any 75' subway car up the Nassau St. line.
BTW, how could the train actually discharge it's passengers when Broad St isn't long enough to handle a 600 ft. train?
As I recall, the crew only opened doors on half the train and made people walk to the open section.
David
[BTW, how could the train actually discharge it's passengers when Broad St isn't long enough to handle a 600 ft. train?]
I presume the crew also unlocked the storm doors in the section which was still in the tunnel.
The reroute I remember was the D would go from Broadway-Nassau to Essex St. through the old KK connection, then up onto the bridge entrance until it passed the switch just past Essex. It would then reverse direction and come back through the Nassau loop and Montague St. tunnel to DeKalb Ave. There would be no stops between B'way-Lafayette and DeKalb, so there wouldn't be a problem with the shorter station platforms.
This is correct. I did this many times going to college in the early '80s.
--Mark
Yes, but at that time there were no 75 foot cars running on the D line, so this reroute was possible.
But the train was still too long, even though curves weren't a problem. But we've already covered the station thing.
Those reroutes of the D were from '69 to around '84 (from then on, the universal practice was to split it between Broadway and 6th Av.).
The D had 75 ft cars from the early or mid 70's to about '80. However, I don't remember going through Nassau in the 44's. Then again, I only rode such a reroute a few times, and some of these after the D lost the 44's.
The 44's and 46's, interestingly enough do have this routing on the side electronic signs, which are only coded with routes and destinations the cars can access (including the J and M as far as Essex. I wish they would put a short train on the M or Shuttle now). So the cars can clear the whole Nassau/Centre st. line.
You're right - the R-68s weren't around in the early '80s. But I could sware we did it with 75' cars ... oh well, I must be hallucinating.
--Mark
R-44s ran on the D until early 1981. On January 16 of that year (if memory serves) there was a particularly violent derailment over the switches south of Kings Highway. Some people almost got R-44s in their backyards. (I wouldn't have minded, you wouldn't have minded, but these people, they would have minded!) The people along the Brighton Line had been trying for several years to get 75' cars off the line because, they claimed, the vibrations from the cars were damaging the walls separating their properties from the right-of-way. This was the last straw.
After that, the D was served by R-40M/R-42 trains and by R-32s, until the R-68s came in (there were occasionally trains of other car classes, but these were the mainstays). I, too, went to college in the mid-'80s and remember the diversion that called for midday D trains to go halfway over the Williamsburg Bridge, reverse, and go through the Nassau Street Line and the Montague Street Tunnel to Brooklyn. One time I was up there for about half an hour, in car 4764 (along with 4765, the cars that were in Pueblo CO for many years -- still had the USDOT seal inside!). I think someone forgot we were there!
David
I remember all of that well. I, too, rode in 4764/4765 with the DOT logo displayed.
The D line was served with R-46s for a brief period as well as R-10s. In fact, I believe when the R-44s left, it was the R-10s that replaced them.
--Mark
I don't remember R-10s on the D during the 1980s, though I do recall an occasional R-27/30 set. The R-46s were there after the R-44s, and before the R-44s! (R-44s ran there when new, then they left and R-46s came in, then the R-46s left and R-44s were back. At least I think...R-44s and R-46s may have run on the D at the same time, though DEFINITELY not on the same trains.) I do remember R-46s on the D...I rode in car 1003 on a school trip to Lincoln Center on May 2, 1979; the storm door at one end (I don't remember which) wouldn't stay closed -- and remember, it was supposed to be locked.
David
[The D line was served with R-46s for a brief period as well as R-10s. In fact, I believe when the R-44s left, it was the R-10s that replaced them.]
I was going to Grady HS from '80-'83, and when the 44's were there, you hardly ever saw 32's, but when the 44's left, then it was nothing but 32's 42/40m, and occasionally 30's. And pretty much the same thing on the M and QB. (People don't believe that 32's were ever regular on the M.) Then for about 1 year--81-82, you had the R-38's (I was just learning about car classes, and it looked like an cross between a 32 and 42). I first saw them on the M (yes, they also ran here!--I remember the shorter trains), and then on the D (they also ran on the B, QB and RR). Then in the spring they disappeared (to the A, I soon found out). My last semester, two 40 slants began appearing, and the years after that, they became more prominent, preading to all the southern div. lines during the bridge closings.
I had heard about R-10's running on the B and D in 1980, but I never saw anything like that. (I wish! I used to imaginge the shock of seeing and R-10 sitting in Brighton Beach one afternoon). At this time, they were exclusively on the C and G. So it must have been before September when they were running everywhere.
I rode on a D train of R-10s sometime in 1979 or 1980. Talk about surprises! The first car on the Brooklyn-bound end didn't have a Brighton Beach sign, so the destination curtain was blank.
There were also R-27/30s on the D back then, too, but for some reason some of them were signed up as DD trains. I thought, you mean to tell me these cars don't have D signs? You've got to be kidding!
... and scary those R-10s looked with all that grafitti on them!
--Mark
I saw the grafitti-covered R10's in their last days (early 87). Filthiest, dirtiest cars in the entire system. The one I was on had 3 cars with no lights!
As far as I can remember, the D line was served almost exclusively with R40's, both slants and r40M's, with occasional R42's and an odd R32 or 30. This only goes back as far as 1985, when I first started riding the subway extensively, so I'm not sure. When the 6th Ave. tracks closed in 1986 most of the R42's and R40M's dissappeared to the Bronx-portion of the D while the Broadway portion used just about everything in the book (R40, 42, 32, 30, even an R16 i saw once). Before 1985 is a complete mystery to me.
When the Chrystie St. connection opened in 1967, R-32s began providing base service on the D, along with the AA and B lines (with B signs pasted over the BB markings), although the R-1/9s could still be found as well. When the R-42s came along, it was common to see mixed consists of R-32s and R-42s coupled together on the D. Man, did that ever drive me nuts! By the late 70s, I remember seeing R-42s on the D, only this time in solid trains.
That's another thing I never saw. (They must not have done this stuff on the weekends, which is the only time I rode as a child). But I did see a picture of a 30/42 mix in one of the ERA slide shows.
I don't know what movie it was, but it was 2 years ago. I was coming from Fulton St., and saw the LCD side signs on the tracks rising up from the middle. Made me think I was at Canal on Broadway, for a minute.
What's all this talk about NEW TRAINS on the #7 line? Could someone please elaborate on this, including why a R110A is running on the #7?
Some one thought they saw an old film that described how trolley cars on the surface (say on Delaware Ave.) were lifted up at the ends of the Ben Franklin bridge in an "elevator" to continue their trip
across the bridge, they lowered back down at the other end by elevator to street level.
Does anybody have anything on this???
Thanks,
Chuck Greene
I've never heard of this. AFAIK the only rails across the Ben Franklin are the high speed line cars (now DRPA), which get onto the bridge under their own steam.
There was one unusual trolley operation in respect to the Ben Franklin Bridge, though. Northbound cars of the 50 line had to pass through a low tunnel. Rather than try to push the pole down by lowering the wire, the pole hit a kind of bumper which knocked it close to the car roof. The trolley then made contact with an electrified pan which guided it back onto the wire.
I dont think that was ever on the 50 when going into the tunnel. That was on the 23 when crossing the Reading tracks on 12th street.
Yes, the Route 50 cars passed under a tunnel, but the trolley wire was carried under the tunnel roof by a standard trough, the wire height dropping from 22 feet to 15. No "bumper" was involved, as the shock would have dewired the pole, especially at the speeds operated.
The only such "bumper" arrangement I can think of is where 16th Street crossed below the old PRR Chinese Wall between Market St and what is Kennedy Blvd today (on route 2, now a bus line). The underpasses were very low and the wire had to clear the Market St intersection, so when it got to the Wall, it dropped down almost vertically. A device hit the pole just prior to that and dropped it into a pan which put it on the wire in the underpass. There is a photo of this in the book "PTC Rails".
Both the route 50 entrance to the Ben Franklin tunnel and the route 23 beneath the Reading's City Branch line out of Reading Terminal merely had standard wire. The 23's wire is still there today, just north of the Noble Street turnback used by the Holiday Trolley. The only other pan on the SEPTA city system is at Main Street in Darby where the CSX line is crossed at grade.
The CSX crossing in Darby is equipped with what are known as "crossing guards". This is a metal screen that is shaped like an upside down "U". It is uninsulated (in fact, it is attached to the wire with standard ears) and serves to capture the pole if it dewires on the crossing, so a car cannot be trapped there.
Mr. Greene,
I think you've been hearing "bits and pieces" of the whole picture. When constructed, the Delaware River Bridge (later renamed the Benjamin Franklin Bridge) was to accommodate streetcars, rapid transit and automobile traffic. The rapid transit tracks were constructed on the bridge's outer edges and are still used today by the PATCO Lindenwold "Hi-Speed Line" which uses third rail electrification. On the Philadelphia side, the tracks feed into the Locust Street subway; on the Camden side they used to end at Broadway Station (where transfer to the Pennsylvania-Reading Seashore Line's commuter trains was possible) but in the 1960's were extended along the PRSL's right-of-way to Lindenwold.
The trolley tracks were to be the next lanes as you moved "inboard" on the bridge. When opened, these lanes on the bridge were left as an "open" steel grate and were not paved in anticipation of trolley tracks being laid down. This never happened for two reasons:
1) As the remainder of the bridge was indeed paved for auto traffic, many of Public Service's buses from New Jersey were now able to cross into Philly and deliver/collect their riders from points closer to their origins and destinations - this obviated the need for trolleys.
2) The gauge of of Camden's and Philly's trolleys were not the same, so they couldn't run over the bridge and onto each other's respective street trackage.
What is interesting to note is that (and here's where you probably have heard "bits and pieces") there was a plan for bringing Camden trolleys into Philly. The Camden trolleys would cross the bridge and enter a large underground trolley terminal under Franklin Square. Here connections would be made with Philly trolleys as well as with the adjacent rapid transit line. The Franklin Square rapid transit station was indeed opened but has long since closed - PATCO trains pass through it every day. The trolley terminal was indeed laid out but tracks were never laid - it is faintly visible out the windows of the PATCO trains.
Now, here's where it gets really interesting. The bridge's anchorages were to have trolley (not rapid transit as far as I know) stations. The anchorages are well-situated along the Camden and Philly waterfronts and planners thought they'd make great stations. People (not trolleys) would enter at street level and ride an elevator to the boarding platform at the roadway level. The stations were Art Deco delights and were in fact built inside the anchorages but never saw use.
With the buses so successful, the outer lanes were eventually paved over for more autos and the only tracks across the bridge are PATCO's. Of course, like any good bridge of that era, there were also pedestrian walkways over the transit tracks, and they still exist today. Easily the best view of Philly.
I rode the PATCO line about a month ago for the first time and I was very impressed with the ride over the bridge. I was wondering why every couple hundred of feet the tracks seemed to have a piece that made the track articulated as if it were a drawbridge? I remember seeing these on the Manhattan bridge as well.
I'm not a civil engineer, but could these simply be expansion joints?
That's exactly what they are. Just as you would find on the roadway portion of the bridge, the structure must move. That's also the reason that the bridge has the only jointed rail on the line. The welded sections wouldn't work with all the provisions for expansion, since the bridge's steel and the rail (which is attached to the bridge) must be free to expand as they will. Since they are both steel, they should expand and contract at the same rate. However, the grades of steel are slightly different. Also, the rails are confined to a large degree - they cannot move laterally, so all the expansion must be accounted for longitudinally, where the bridge can conceivably expand to the sides slightly.
Thank you, Will. That certainly clears things up for me. Maybe my friend who told me about this will understand it was a "passener
evelator only, not a steetcar lifter.
Thaks again,
Chuck Greene
Were the stations in the anchorages actually completed? I've heard conflicting reports, most indicating that only the shells were constructed. Also, were the elevators ever installed?
If there are any significant remains, it would make an interesting tour - the trolley stations and also the closed Franklin Plaza station.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The anchorage stations, as far as I know, were essentially built but lacked their trackside platforms. I can't remember the exact issue, but the West Jersey Rail Historical Society's newsletter featured the stations and their "tile art" a while back. A few months ago Philadelphia Magazine also did an issue where they explored "lost underground Philadelphia" and they had color shots of the stations, which the Port Authority uses as storage areas today. I think I remember reading that the statues that used to adorn the toll plaza are stored there. Does anybody remember that issue?
Franklin Square was reopened by PATCO for the bicentennial but was closed in 1979 or 1980 for lack of ridership. The trolley terminal is located immediately to the east and is really "bare bones" - I don't believe they got very far with it. All you see from PATCO is the large clear space and several incandescent bulbs.
As for Franklin Square, there is talk of MAYBE reopening it because of the rebuilding of Independence Mall. The latest plan for the Mall puts the new National Constitution Center on the block just south of Franklin Square and its underground PATCO station. Perhaps this may finally give this station a reason for being. I guess in the "old days" this station was in a less auto-dominated setting and had more riders. (For you out-of-towners, Franklin Square has essentially become a traffic island on the Bridge approach.)
That's nice to hear. I've always wished for the stop to be open, primarily because I visit the Poe house occasionally and it's less than a mile from Franklin Square. All other stops are much farther. I realize that my reasons aren't good ones from a transit efficiency standpoint, but hey, since when has that gotten in the way?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Franklin Square is a great railfan place, but it is stuck in a forgotten park plagued by homeless and petty criminals. The Park Service may push to reopen it, and other factors such as our local PBS station's headquarters across the street renovating and expanding in a large way, may contribute to PATCO's decision to open it at least on a part-time basis. Even when it was open, ridership was very low, and trains would barely get the doors open before the alarm bells were ringing that the doors were about to close.
Bob - wouldn't the revitilization of Old City make it very worthwhile?
I live there and take ride PATCO to visit family from time to time,
and it would be an easier walk than from 8th and Market. But for sure,
they've got to do something good with that park. It's a shame - an
abandoned park and hospital are the first things you see coming into
the city.
Thanks to all for the trolley terminal info - I've always wondered
what those bulbs were for.
P.S. After finding out that Patco had 2 bridge trains in their
shop, I actually got a (telephone call!) back from an email
inquiry. Turns out they were used as work cars and are stripped
now, and are basically out of order. Looks like I'm off to Rock
Hill this weekend to take in an old BSS car. :D
As you noted, Franklin Square is probably the most neglected and forgotten of the five squares of William Penn's original city. It's been isolated by the 5-lane Race St on one side, the 6-lane Vine St on another, and the 6-lane 6th St on a third. It's hardly pedestrian friendly, and even if you get there, you don't hang around.
Even when Metropolitan Hospital was open, its doors were mainly on the 8th St side and there was very little activity on the 7th/Franklin frontage. I used Franklin Square occasionally in '78 and saw very few hospital types at the station, even at shift changes at the hospital.
What may revitalize Franklin Square is the northward movement of Independence Mall. With the new visitors center planned for the Arch to Race block, it will be more attractive to visitors using PATCO to ride to Franklin Square and exit there for the park. The problem remains as to the safety of the crossings of the wide streets. I had heard back when F Square reopened in the 70's that PATCO was considering an underground passage to link the station to the south side of Race St. Whether this is (or ever was) in the cards, it would be very welcome.
[2) The gauge of of Camden's and Philly's trolleys were not the same, so they couldn't run over the bridge and onto each other's respective street trackage.]
In some European cities the cars run on dual-gauge trackage. I wonder why that idea wasn't investigated by Public Service.
Now the real reason, by the time the bridge was built PSNJ was already starting to convert streetcar lines to buses, so why invest $$$ in trackage in Philadelphia.
ALSO, would the traction interests in Philadelphia even consider allowing PSNJ to operate on the streets of Philadelphia? I think for years PSNJ was NOT allowed to pick up passengers on Market Street.
The time of the trolley was already closing by the time the bridge was completed. Any consideration for streetcar tracks on the Ben were lost in the idea of the mighty motor coach.
Jim K.
Chicago
Jim K,
You bring up several excellent points.
Yes, dual gauge trackage is common in Europe, but that still would have required a greater investment in "on-street" infrastructure than the proposed trolley transfer terminal, which would have been part of the mammoth bridge project. And who would determine the exact routes which would be equipped with dual gauge trackage - PSNJ, the bridge commission, or the PRT? The politics would have been tricky, to say the least. Also keep in mind that the planners of the era were also trying to "feed" the rapid transit stop at the trolley terminal as well. Today, the Locust Street subway terminates at 16th Street, but in the 1920's people still thought that the "Center City Distribution Loop" of the Broad Street Subway was still going to be built. This would have given passengers many more choices from the trolley terminal than they would have from just the surface trackage.
The conversion to buses was well underway, as you say. The time span between when the bridge was designed and when it was opened is the real killer here. The attitudes changed considerably during those years - trolleys were seen as "old fashioned" and buses were seen as modern. I guess that, at that time prior to PCC cars, there was some validity to this thought. The convenience of being able to pick up anywhere in South Jersey and drop off as close as reasonably possible to the final destination in Philly was also key - I'm sure many PSNJ patrons who had to switch to the ferry, or who would have had to switch at the trolley terminal, would now have a one seat ride. The idea of "anywhere in South Jersey" is important - a surface distributor trolley on dual gauge trackage would still have been somewhat limited as to where in South Jersey it could pick up people. The buses could serve new and expanding suburbs in South Jersey which heretofore had no trolley service and take folks directly to Center City.
Of course, even today NJ Transit can only operate "inbound drop-off/outbound pick-up only" service in Philadelphia on its Market Street routes. I could be wrong, but I think that in the old days PSNJ was at least allowed to do this much as well, since it was technically an "interstate" trip and therefore protected by the constitution's interstate commerce clause and all that legal mumbo-jumbo.
Someone once told me that all another state could do is dictate where the pick-ups/drop-offs could occur, and that this was why the bi-state Port Authority has the ability to route all regularly scheduled interstate and commuter bus service into the Bus Terminal in NYC or to designated Wall Street area stops, but that it cannot dictate terms to charter/tour buses or to purely intrastate buses such as Hampton Jitney (which seems to run up and down the east side as it pleases). Comments?
I can't say for sure but I always thought that PS's South Jersey rail lines were wide gauge. Regardless, the story as I've heard it goes something like this:
PRT was anxious to run a line across the bridge, as was PS. Both agencies had notoriously underpowered cars. PRT was broke and headed into bankruptcy even before the crash of '29 (one reason that PTC came into being in '40 - it was the reorganized PRT). PS was busy looking to convert car lines to bus and by the mid-30's had switched two Southern Division lines to all-service vehicles (hybrid bus and trackless - the 4-Haddon Ave and 50-Clementon lines). Neither company was in a position to purchase new equipment with more motors to make the grade of the bridge (if you think the grade isn't very severe, take a stroll on the walkway and you'll quickly learn otherwise).
The Bridge Commission, DRPA's predecessor, wanted car lines to end in the planned terminal beneath the bridge plaza next to 6th St on the Phila side. PRT saw little benefit in this. PS viewed this as an inferior service to the bus routes which it and other independents provided across the bridge deeper into the heart of Center City. (PRT was one of the companies that provided such bus service, by the way!) PS knew that its own buses could do better and created Phila adjuncts to its intrastate NJ car and bus lines. These survived into the early 70's, such as 2-3 Fairview, 4-5 Haddonfield, 6-7 Moorestown, etc. Generally the odd-numbered line was the Phila service. Buses later carried red destination signs for Phila runs and black for NJ trips.
To the best of my knowledge, PS service in Phila was always open-door and not restricted in any way other than no intra-Phila riders could be carried. This is still the case. This stipulation was originally ordered by the ICC to the best of my knowledge.
I saw the R-110A at Astoria blvd this morning at around 6am. I have only one question. After so long in storage, Why now are they testing them so much.
It's time to load the cameras and get out to the Flushing/Astoria lines. Who knows how long they'll be out there..MARK
They are not. At 3pm on Monday they returned to 207 St yard.
While waiting to re-board the train at Jay St (I got off to use a Metrocard Vending machine and had to wait 18 minutes to get back on), I saw a frequency of service schedule for all the lines for "Fall '99." I had never seen a TA schedule like it before. The frequency of service of all lines at different times was displayed in a table (every 8 minutes, every 10 minutes, etc), with the line that the rest of the poster had information on (in this case the A) highlighted.
Compared with prior schedules, there seems to be an increase in service on several lines, particularly the woeful Brighton, which is back up to 20 trains per hour during peak hours (from 15 or 16). The Brooklyn A had one train every 3.5 minutes, instead of the prior 13 per hour. There is more West End B service as well. Still one train every 8 minutes on the N and R, though.
Is this real, and really an increase? Where are the cars coming from?
Where did you see it? Was it a public announcement or something only for internal use?
It's a publicly displayed time table. One is posted near me at the south entrance to West 4th Street.
Don't need the cars just more people to operate(Train Operators/Conductors)Plenty of people were promoted to Train Operator or Conductor.
My understanding is that the service increases will be during the non or off-peak hours. However, that does not mean that there are enough cars to maintain that level even at off-peak. Since the NYCT stopped the "Summer-Light Riding" program, the Division of Car Equipment has had a tough time maintaining the cars and providing full service. One way it's been done has been to shift some maintenance to the off hours. If more trains are kept running during those off hours, less maintenance can and will be done. Not the best of worlds...
I said it before, and I'll say it again - they should NEVER have scrapped the R30s and the GOH R10s! Now they're going to have problems trying to stretch the fleet thinner than it is.
Wayne
why couldn't shorter consists be used where possible? with shorter headways midday a full length 10 car train wouldn't be needed. same for midnight and weekend most lines where service is increased full length(10 car) or 8 for 75ft cars wouldn't be missed since the following train would be right behind it...(hopefully)
You have to hire extra Train Operators to handle the cuts and adds.
The idea of cutting to shorter trains is a great one. It saves money because cars need to be inspected less often & use less electricity. Unfortunately, when a maintenance shop can not hold a car due to a high hold count or no material, guess where the bad order car goes. Bury it!!! which means - Put it in the middle. Unfortunately, when you cut the trains those burried cars come right back to bite us in the posterior.
Steve, I'm confused. First, you say that the increased schedule will prevent cars from getting into the shops because they'll be in service. Then, you say that there is no room for them in the shops anyway and you've been hiding them in the middle of the trains. Am I missing something?
You would also develope the same problem the 1 did when it went to 5 cars on the midnights. People are creatures of habit and given a full platform and no train with open doors, they will go wait where their exit is located. If I run a 4 or 5 car train, I have to wait while everyone runs from where they are waiting to where the train is. If they miss my train, all they do is yell, scream, spit, and throw things at the next crew. It doesn't speed up service and may in fact slow it down.
From the Met's on-line schedules, compared to a year ago, the A has two extra rush-hour services arriving at W 4th Street due to Willy Bridge closure - now 21 trains per hour, so I suppose they might use some trains currently not required on the J/M/Z due to W Bridge closure.
The combined D/Q service on the Brighton Line has not changed from a year ago - currently 10/11 trains per hour respectively arriving at E 4th St from 8 00 to 9 00am.
On August 15, I was standing on the more northerly platform waiting for a local train to Columbus Circle. I was facing north, standing on the left side of the platform. There was a track next to the platform (for uptown locals), a track used by southbound express trains (A Line) which used the southerly platform. On the far left, against the wall was a track used by E trains coming from Queens. Between the southbound express track, and the E track, there appeared to be a chasm that seemed to slope downward like a ramp. It appeared to be about 6-8 feet across. The chasm sloped down below the south platform about 400 feet to my south. I hypothesize that this is the abandoned track that leads to the abandoned platform. I cannot believe there ever was a platform down there, since all the E trains use the southern platform on the upper level. I wonder if the transit authority will ever open it again, since it would easily increase the capacity of the station.
Indeed there is an abandoned platform and track below the existing SB platform at 42/8th Ave. The platform is on the east side of the track. It was built as part of the original 1932 IND subway, but has not been used since about 1976. Some scenes from the movie "Ghosts" with Demi Moore were shot there.
I think that the trains that were at that abandoned platform were specials to Aqueduct Racetrack in Ozone Park.
I believe that there is a photo section within this web site that shows this area.
Here's the link to the photos: 42nd Street - Lower Level (IND).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, the lower level was used by Aqueduct Specials from 1959 to 1981. Rush hour E trains also used it during the early and mid 1970s. The extreme northern end was used as an underpass between the two main platforms before the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone. I remember using the underpass once or twice and seeing the lower level.
I doubt if we'll ever see it used in revenue service again. The lower level has been essentially sealed off and the access stairways cemented over. It can still be used to reroute E trains in the event both main level tracks are inaccessible.
[The lower level has been essentially sealed off and the access stairways cemented over. It can still be used to reroute E trains in
the event both main level tracks are inaccessible.]
Steve, you have it almost right. There is a old stairway concealed behind a door that's under another stairway about midway on the downtown platform. Andy, who posted earlier here, lead one of the TA Museum tour last year. The lower level at 8th Ave was one of the stops. There was water between the rails & red lights on the signals.
Mr t__:^)
You're right. I stand corrected. They did leave one stairway with a locked access door.
Does anyone know where I can find the APTA Metrocard? It was produced last summer for members of the APTA convention. It has the NY skyline on the back with a red apple in the middle with an MTA logo. It is #69 in the MTA's list of special Metrocards. I don't want to take up space here so if anyone has info please E-Mail me....Mark
A long shot would be to ask MTA MC Product Development, the guys who sell the space on the back of the cards: proddev@nyct.com.
You could even address it to Jonathan Fisher or Rachel Givner.
BTW, if you find a stash of them I need a couple also.
Mr t__:^)
Perhaps when the A and B tracks shut down in 2001, they should be shut down permanently, and new tracks should be built in the center of the bridge.
The only argument I've heard against it is that the bridge now has four tracks, but the center only has room for three. But if the DeKalb tracks are connected to the Rutgers tunnel, something that could be done at the same time, Brooklyn wouldn't need four tracks on the bridge. It needs two it can count on in the long run. If center tracks are more likely to happen than a new tunnel, and less likely to be lost than the tracks on the outside, I say do it.
The Rutgers-DeKalb connection would permit two 6th Avenue locals running from Brooklyn through to Queens, say the F and Q. Two bridge tracks could be hooked up to the 6th Avenue express for two more services, say the B and D. And the center track of the three could be used for reroutes during maintenence, and/or connected to the Broadway Express. One Broadway Express service, say the N, could run over the bridge in the peak direction during peak hours: otherwise it would use the Montigue St tunnel.
With current schedules, that would mean that 38 of 52 rush hour trains through Pacific/DeKalb would bypass Lower Manhattan on the way to Midtown. That's more than enough avoiding all the stops in Downtown Brooklyn and Manhattan.
Hah, give up traffic lanes??
Have you seen the traffic over the bridge just with one of the three center lines closed during rush?
DOT would never give it up. Even if you paved over A/B tracks now and opened it for car traffic (trucks fit under there?) before a single rail is laid down the center it won't happen. IMHO!
(Won't give up the traffic lanes).
All this insanity is because the East River Bridges are "free." Since they are "already paid for," you don't need a toll. Forget the $500 million they are dumping in, to be followed by another $500 million after that.
If the bridges were tolled, the nonsense would go away. You'd build new tunnels up and down the East River, using the toll money. Drivers , for one, would demand better facilities. Trucks would be off the bridges, and in new tunnels with 14'4" clearance. And subways would be off as well. Environmental reviews? Here's your "mitigation." If the new tunnels induce more people to drive to Manhattan, raise the tolls until things even out. No problem.
The "secret" of bridge/tunnel tolls is that, insofar as the amount collected in greater than the full costs of running the facility, they are actually a tax on access to a given area.
This is not necessarily bad public policy, except that the tax charged is unevenly applied according to route.
For example, if you suppose that it is fair to tax vehicles using Manhattan streets, a vehicle making a round trip via Goethels-Verrazano-Brooklyn-Battery tunnel pays much more than one using the Holland tunnel.
A vehicle coming from the east or north (or one originating in Manhattan) using a free bridge may pay no toll/tax at all, though the impact of its use may be as great or greater.
It would be fairer to charge a direct usage charge, whether or not you're using what is currently a toll facility. Various means exist this to do this, but the best involve civil liberties problems.
("Tax on access"). A tax on access to Manhattan may not be a bad thing. Not on people. Just on people accompanied by a ton and a half of metal. The way I figure it, I and other transit riders have an equal right to drive our cars on Manhattan streets, but not everyone can. So who should get this privilege?
a) Socialism in theory, those who "need it." But with a subway, who "needs" to drive to Manhattan?
b) Socialism in practice, those who are willing to sit in traffic the longest. That is the current system.
c) Cronyism -- those who get permits to park on the street through connections at City Hall. We do a lot of that too -- it accounts for one in seven driving in.
d) Capitalism -- those who are willing to pay for it. Sounds like a good idea to me.
Since Manhattan is an island, one really could charge to use the streets, adjusted for time of day, vehicle pollution, etc. To me, it is the obvious answer.
>a) Socialism in theory, those who "need it." But with a subway, who >"needs" to drive to Manhattan?
>b) Socialism in practice, those who are willing to sit in traffic the >longest. That is the current system.
>c) Cronyism -- those who get permits to park on the street through >connections at City Hall. We do
>a lot of that too -- it accounts for one in seven driving in.
>d) Capitalism -- those who are willing to pay for it. Sounds like a >good idea to me.
Some additions:
e) Monopoly capitalism -- Only people driving Fords.
f) Anarchism -- The people with the biggest guns mounted on their hoods.
g) Soviet-style communism -- Rudy Giuliani and his close personal friends.
h) Cuban-style communism -- no-one, those 1950's cars can't make the grades over the bridges.
i) Unabomber-style agrarianism -- get your rowboat ready...
j) IMF-stlye neoliberalism -- Manhattan loans the Bronx $1 billion to build a new tunnel, then charges tolls so high that no Bronx resident can afford to use it, then makes the Bronx repay the loan at 100% interest.
k) Freudianism -- Before you pass through the Queens-Midtown Tunnel, tell me about your mother...
I'll stop now for the good of everyone.
Skip S. Topp
Just put in EZPass readers and take pictures of anyone that does not have one and mail them a $50 ticket (like the running red light enforcement).
QED~
Anarchy is not the people with the biggest guns, it means no ruler. Rule by the strong would be something like Herculocracy, which uses the strong figure in Greek mythology (Plutocracy uses a Greek God).
No, Plutocracy is rule by an agreeable dog.
The U.S. Army has been ruled by a Mouseocracy since colonial times.
I say we move to a duckracy!
OK, how about if they only use the inside tracks on both sides of the bridge, and turn the area where the outside tracks are into pedestrian/bicycle paths? That would assure both sides of the bridge would have equal traffic, and therefore equal stress load, and a flying junction could be built on the Manhattan side so trains could go to either Sixth Ave. or Broadway (no need to do it on the Brooklyn side, since both tracks already are headed to DeKalb)
The Manhattan Bridge is a major truck route to the Holland Tunnel. Trucks can't use the Brooklyn Bridge.
Yeah, yeah, I know we should run all the trucks out of town, but this isn't going to happen. If you even suggest it, NYC DOT would have a cow, man.
A compromise might be to deck over the center lanes for another highway level, but could the structure support the addition of the dead weight?
As part of my MVM site, I intend to list the languages that the machines have. I would like it if people could post the languages the machines have. All machines have four languages, the first two are always English and Spanish. The second two are based, generally, on neighborhood and come from a list of six: French, Italian, Chinese, Russian, Japanese and Korean.
Thank you
What, no Yiddish?!?!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was told, when I played 'pop-quiz' with a tech. Told me that all the buttons are in the same locations on every machine, no matter the language. He suggested 'amaze your freinds' by buying the card in Cantonese.
Each machine can use 4 languages, so concievably, 3 machines will make all 6 current languages available to the public.
-Hank
I thought it was Mandarin. Anyway, I always buy my card using an Asian Language (READ: Language whose alphabet I can't read) because I've memorized the buttons and will be adding them to the tutorial on the site.
I thought it was Mandarin.
Cantonese and Mandarin, like all dialects of Chinese, share a common written language. It's only the spoken sounds that differ. This is why Chinese-language movies and TV programming often have Chinese subtitles, which might at first appear to be redundant. If the dialect being used isn't one that the viewer understands, they can always read the subtitles. But anyway, unless the MVM's start talking, it's just "Chinese". :-)
Of course, I knew that, but had forgotten that in a Hieroglyphic system such as Chinese, the letters are read the exact same way, just the words sound different. Now, the MVMs do talk if you have a headset, I haven't tried this, and if it has Chinese, I'm sure it's Mandarin.
Yiddish? They need it like a hole in the head.
Agreed - I was just trying to make light of the situation. In my opinion, only one language - American English - is needed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
So was I.
Beleive it or not, the MTA does sometimes release notices in Yiddish - for example, they had Yiddish posters regarding the Williamsburgh Bridge closure.
I have a better one for you ...
The set of six Mets MetroCards all celebrate a ethnic group for a night, accept Aug. 8th, it was Jewish Heritage D-A-Y
Mr t__:^)
I DO NOT agree, there would be many new immigrants and tourists from foreign countries who don't know English at first (in the case of the tourists, never). If the MVM is the only way to get a card, which would be the only way to enter the system, what would they do? Besides, it's a computer, they can be programmed with many languages. On that note, there are many people who would are more comfortable with other languages even though they may be fluent in English. This is a simple amenity added to try to make the MVM more popular during the rollout. In fact, as I see now, the second reason is really why the MVMs should be multilingual. And I think we should have Yiddish! Among other new languages.
One of the problems I perceive in this country today is the number of immigrants who come here and don't want to learn English - rather, they expect our government to cater to them in their own language. We now have driver's license books and exams in a variety of languages, voter registration cards for the newly-minted citizens who haven't bothered to learn English, etc., and I think that's wrong. Immigrants to this country have an obligation, both moral and legal, to be "productive citizens", and if they cannot speak the language then they cannot fulfill that obligation. The tourists I can understand, but even there they should understand the basics of our language - at least enough to ask for help if they need it! In my high school and college days I travelled to a number of foreign countries, and before I went I made sure that I knew at least enough of the language to get directions, order a meal, and stay out of trouble. In most cases I knew quite a bit more than that - at one point I would have been considered fluent in two languages besides English, able to read well and communicate in three more, and able to manage the basics in another three (four if you include Hebrew). After too many years of disuse my fluency is gone, but I would have no trouble getting around most of Europe and Latin America using only the language of the country I was visiting even today. Just as too many immigrants come here with no intention of becoming part of our society, so do too many Americans go abroad thinking that English is the only language out there. I don't expect those who come here to give up their language and customs at home, but if they don't want to be productive citizens then they should stay where they came from. I work in a very, very multi-cultural environment, where many of the people who work for me (and, indeed, my boss and his boss) come from different parts of the world. All of them speak fluent English, each with a different accent, and each with a different perspective on the world, but we can all communicate using that common language. It wouldn't matter how smart and skilled they were if we couldn't share the knowledge.
OK, enough of my ranting.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I actually agree with you on this. Official government business does not have to be in other languages. I also believe that regardless of age and how many years you've been in the U.S, if you want to be a citizen, you MUST learn English. An MVM can have multiple languages to help people whose native language is not English to use the machines as opposed to using a human to do the transaction (agent). It's a good way to promote their use.
[Immigrants to this country have an obligation, both moral and
legal, to be "productive citizens", and if they cannot speak the language then they cannot fulfill that obligation.]
I tend to agree with you on this point. Learning the language will also help you fit in, i.e. avoid the whole discrimation thing ... but I'm not going to lead this thread their.
[The tourists I can understand, but even there they should understand the basics of our language - at least enough to ask for help if they need it!]
But let me make a counter point ... supose you went on vacation to a foreign country ... wouldn't you EXPECT them to speak english ? I don't expect it, so I try to learn a few words to get by. The locals seem to treat you better if you're trying.
Mr t__:^)
No, I don'texpect them to speak English - which is precisely why it is important to know the basics of communication in their language. And you're absolutely right - the locals, both here and abroad, will treat the tourist better if they are making an effort to communicate in the local language.
Not to change the subject too much, but I have mentioned before in these threads an excellent hole-in-the-wall Mexican restaurant on the west side of Broadway between 123rd and 124th (one block south of the 125th street station on the 1/9). The name of the place is Mi Mexicoand the staff speak limited English - enough that someone who doesn't speak Spanish could order, but not much more than that. We drove in to the City on Saturday night kind of on a whim after our first (and last) trip to Ikea in Newark and headed there for supper; it was nice to know that my Spanish, rusty as it is, hasn't gotten so bad as to prevent me from carrying on a pleasant conversation with the waitress as well as being able to order our food. The atmosphere of the place is quite informal but nice - Spanish being spoken all around, including the soccer game on TV (as usual, we were the only non-Latins in the place) and the rumble of the el outside.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
This Article appeared in today's (8/16) Chicago Tribune
NOT EVERYONE AT CTA IS GOING IN THE SAME DIRECTION
Jon Hilkevitch
August 16, 1999
Maybe you've seen the Chicago Transit Authority's most recent attempt to promote itself in a television commercial.
The 15-second spot, featuring frenetically paced music and fast-motion
videography shot at night, shows glistening CTA trains scooting
gracefully around curves on the Loop elevated.
But the commercial, which, oddly, does not include any voice-over
message and only very briefly displays the CTA logo, fails to convey a
sense of where the CTA is trying to go (In circles, like the TV ad's
dizzying video suggests?), or when it will get there.
The same feeling--a lack of commitment by the CTA management to attain
specific and verifiable customer-oriented goals against a deadline--was clear last week at a meeting of the CTA Committee on Strategic Planning and Service Delivery.
Unfortunately, only a few members of the public were in the audience
last Monday to watch committee chairman Don Jackson and CTA chairman
Valerie Jarrett press several of the top managers under CTA president
Frank Kruesi to go beyond the perennial "we'll try harder" attitude. But all Jackson and Jarrett received from the bureaucrats were excuses for why they couldn't require more from their employees--technical jargon about the uncertainty of "spare-part ratios" and budgetary constraints.
Jarrett asked Richard Winston, the transit agency's guru on bus and rail operations, whether the CTA's existing standards are considered
requirements or just goals to shoot for. "Because of the fact that
meeting the goals is so dependent on budget and the amount of money we
have available to provide service, I think that it can only be
considered as goals," Winston said.
His answer clearly was not what Jarrett wanted to hear, and she let
Winston know that while the CTA is "a long way from getting the system
to a state of good repair, I think we can make (short-term) commitments to the riders.
"The public has a right to know what to expect," Jarrett said, "and it
should mean something."
The committee meeting occurred four days before Paul McCoy was forced to resign his senior position at Commonwealth Edison after the utility let down the public again last week. Regardless of whether job security was in fact on the minds of CTA officials in the midst of the public relations meltdown at ComEd this year, Winston and Marcel Acosta, senior vice president for planning and development, gave the CTA chairman very little rope that could be used later to hang them.
Acosta said the staff couldn't possibly consider service standards as
outright requirements, because "a lot of it is dependent on (equipment) deliveries and reducing our spare ratios," referring to how quickly the agency can, for example, replace old, unreliable buses with new vehicles.
Does this mean that the CTA cannot be held accountable to the public for anything?
"We've got to find a way of better communicating to the public what our goals are," Jackson said in an interview after the committee meeting. "We are looking for the staff to make commitments, versus them coming back to us and saying, `We'll accomplish this, but not if the budget isn't there.'
"I don't know how to take that kind of answer," Jackson said. "We cannot be a copout. We've got to do more."
Meanwhile, before the CTA can radically improve the quality of
transportation it is delivering, it must first decide what its service
standards should be.
At the same committee meeting, Winston and Acosta provided an update on the agency's progress in updating its service standards. The standards are the nuts-and-bolt processes dealing with how the transit authority will fulfill its stated mission "to provide high quality transit service that meets the needs of metropolitan Chicago and positively influences the region's development."
At least that is how the CTA's mandate was envisioned way back in
September 1990, when the agency's service standards were adopted.
The standards--surprise, surprise!--haven't been changed since.
Winston told the Committee on Strategic Planning that revisions are
under way, but unfortunately it will take a while for all the actual
working papers to be completed. For riders who don't abandon the CTA in the meantime in search of more dependable transportation, the revised documents for the first time will address CTA standards for paratransit services, frequency-of-service standards to alleviate bus and train overcrowding and objectives for speeding up service, among many, many other important rider concerns.
WHAT DO YA THINK???
BJ
I'm sick and tired of articles that give the impression that the CTA system is either on the verge of collapsing or in actual collapse. (No reference to you in particular is intended here or anywhere in this message, BJ.)
"For riders who don't abandon the CTA in the meantime in search of more dependable transportation..."
Last time I checked, ridership was going UP. Not impressively up, but up all the same. What is with this "Chicken Little" from the Tribune clucking on about people "abandoning" the system?
Does CTA have problems? Damn straight it does! Have they made service cuts? Yes, there are fewer rail and bus routes with owl service, and A/B skip-stop was disposed of. Did they get rid of the conductors, except while trains are running in the downtown subways? Yes.
But on the other hand, they are reopening long-closed station entrances, and indeed entire stations (Grand/Halsted on the Blue Line). Trains have been added to the schedules of several lines. Station stops were significantly longer when OPTO began, but now the delay between closing the doors and starting the motors is almost imperceivable. Under A/B service, without a center passing track, one train would often catch up to the one ahead of it, and the time savings was often zero.
Most importantly, it seems evident, at least to me, that CTA has finally rejected the false logic it consistently applied in the 1980s and early '90s of repeated service cuts and fare hikes, which would drive away passengers, which would lower revenue, which would prompt CTA to institute further service cuts and fare hikes. Anybody who commuted during the '80s, as I did, can see the difference in CTA's attitude now. They haven't gone all the way, but they have definitely made a start.
I'm not saying that the CTA isn't in need of even more improvement, nor am I saying that riders shouldn't press for such improvement. We all should, and I have certainly not been reluctant to send e-mails and letters to the CTA reporting particular problems. But to repeatedly comment on the negatives while totally ignoring any positives is not productive in the least, and will not build the necessary working relationship between the CTA and its passengers.
Large transit systems encounter delays and other circumstances that inconvenience passengers but are not necessarily within the TA's control. Buses get stuck in traffic. Trains are delayed by sick passengers, "police action," and fires in buildings along elevated portions of the line. Anyone who pays his or her fare can ride the system, and that sometimes includes people who talk to themselves or otherwise show signs of mental instability but who cannot legally be removed from the trains because they are not violating any law or presenting a danger to self or others. Yet some people seem to attribute every delay and inconvenience, and every disturbed person on the system, as an act of negligence or even malice on the part of the TA. I am thinking in particular of Aaron M. Renn's e-zine about the CTA, "The Weekly Breakdown" at http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/ which makes little or no effort to distinguish between problems within the CTA's control and those outside its control.
I totally agree with you John. I think this article just points out that that CTA Management disapproves of the attitude of some of it's staff members and knows that they have come a long way from the way the CTA used to be, but still have a long way to go before they see that reliable, safe, clean, efficient, and on time light at the end of the tunnel.
BJ
NY Times today, page B3, mentions that the time estimate for construction of 2nd Ave subway from 63 rd St to 125th St. is TEN YEARS.Taking that number at face value, it seems ridiculous.
The thought processes evident here have become so commonplace that it almost seems ludicrous. I know it's 2nd Ave, but how could it possibly take ten years to build ANYTHING today. I realize my argument is simplistic, but this seems crazy---this is a self fulfilling prophecy, or intended to eliminate this alternative.
The Empire State building was completed in less than one year, but maybe thats not a good comparison ( but it was 60+ years ago, too).
Look at the construction time for the 63st tunnel. Now it seems every capital project takes a lifetime to finish.
And how about the $Billion per mile? In Los Angeles, an area with an equally high cost of living, it was $200 million per mile. If it was even $400 million per mile here, we could build the whole thing.
Yes, all true, but I guess the reason I've been able to retain my sanity living in NY is that I've learned not to let things I can't control upset me terribly, and this article just rubbed me totally the wrong way. What is needed here is some sort of monarchical edict stating that this will be done in 3 years OR ELSE. Things are so out of control that it's very frustrating.
I blame it on all those damm studies they need to do before building anythinmg in NYC - remember those pay toilets they wanted to put in a few years back? In order to get approval, they needed to go through about 100 agencies. Nevermind the NIMBYs, the contractors, etc. If they proposed the IRT subway today, it wouldn't be built. Instead, we'd would get a light rail line from wall street, up broadway to 34th, and a bigger bus system....
I thought being King was Rudy's job.
MORE LIKE DICTATOR!!
Weren't we foolish when Giuliani was elected, not to take the option that if we didn't like him, we could get double the Dinkins back? ;-)
Actually we probably could've been better off having Koch still in office
Tell me, what makes you think NYC would have been better had we kept Koch and not elected Guliani? Yeah, he's a pain in the @ss, but you can't deny that this city has become infinately more livable and desireable under his leadership.
I agree with you totally. Giuliani is not a dictator. He is the chief executive who decides how the implementation of legislation will be done.
If any of it were illegal, people could go to court and stop him. If the City Council were pushed by the citizens to change the laws to stop his implementations, they could certainly do that.
No, we are all just hearing the voices of the activists whose main job or avocation is to complain about Republicans no matter who they are and laud Democrats no matter what they do. These activists are always pretending to represent the majority, but they apparently are not, since neither the City Council, executive branch, or the courts listen to them. (End of speech.)
Carl, at the risk of going a bit off topic, the activists are on all sides. As you correctly pointed out, there are those who oppose anything proposed by the Republicans and support anything proposed by the Democrats. There are also a significant number - the Christian Coalition is one example, but not the only group by far - who oppose anything proposed by the Democrats and support anything proposed by the Republicans. And then, of course, there are those who oppose anything and everything all the time, unless it puts money in their pocket.
In short, no one has a monopoly on shortsightedness and stupidity.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Giuliani is good in some ways, not so good in others.
One of his weak spots is public investment, ie. public transit. His team at EDC, DOT and the Deputy Mayor for infrastructure/economic development are weak, and its a revolving door. The City Planning regime has been very disappointing. Stuff sits at the top for months and doesn't move. Plus, the City Council is strictly NIMBY when it comes to public investment. It only favors pie in the sky.
Hence the value of term limits. Hopefully, the next administration will do the things Rudy hasn't, rather than reversing the gains he has made.
Rudy probably does deserve some credit for the increase in the subway ridership, due to the decline in the crime rate. Even with the Mertocard transfer, a murder rate three times above current levels would have deterred a lot of people from using the system more than absolutely necessary.
Hopefully, the next mayor will be more interested in direct subway improvements other than those that help George Steinbrenner while not reversing the current crime rate trends.
Two thoughts--one when FIVE, thats five freeways were kayoed by a quake in LA they were rebuilt in less than six months. The jobs had speed bonusses written in and they worked 24-7. Here in Oakland when the eklevated piece of the Nimitz became single deck courtesy of the Loma Prieta quake it took nine years.
Two as to Rudi & crime or not. There is a provocative study reported on a week ago in the Chgo Trib and via their wire service other papers suggesting that the crime rate dipped because a large number of potential criminals were not born to mothers who might otherwise have raised them in a less than socially productive manner.
L.A. also got it's Metrolink rail service up and running in a week after the earthquake to the areas above the I-5/State Highway 14 collapsed interchange that lost freeway service, after saying it was impossible to do anything in less than six months. That was because everyone agreed to eliminate all the red tape involved in doing anything involving state and federal funds. Unfortunately, it would take a cataostophic incident on the Lex that closed the line for an extended period to get the same `red tape' exepmtion for the Second Ave. subway in New York.
What would happen if the Manhattan Bridge collapsed?
[ What would happen if the Manhattan Bridge collapsed? ]
It would make a big splash, I suppose.
That, and I'd bet you'd see a Rutgers Tunnel-DeKalb connection built in about 24 months, and maybe even a new tunnel from Pike St to Flatbush Ave. if enough politicians and MTA bureaucrats thought not having the main connection between Brookyln and Manhattan would cost them their jobs.
Here's a link to the NY Times article.
Besides corruption and shoddy financial planning, wouldn't it cost more to bore through Manhattan (solid rock for the most part) that LA (different soil types) and avoid all those buried pipes / mains/ electrical conduits / other unknowns?
As for the cost, the project just recently received FTA approval! Who'd-a-think-it? Now NY State has to come up with its share ....
--Mark
[ Why do rail construction projects take so long? ]
I think there are a lot of reasons that these projects so long, but I'll propose an additional one:
Spreading these projects out stabilizes construction contracting and employment--i.e., it prevents there being a huge increase in demand for construction equipment and labor, followed by a bust when the project is finished.
Put another way, if 3x the resources were needed to finish the project in 3 years instead of 10, you create a three-year strain on construction resources (driving wages and costs up) followed by a bust if no similar size projects are in the pipeline--creating unemployment and politically unpopular crankiness.
Former Gov. Cuomo was a master at this balancing act in road construction--road projects are spread out so there is a continuous feed of employment, promoting politician friendly stability.
Just a thought...
I guess that would explain why the north-south rail link and the big dig is gonna take so long to finish here in boston. But a curious thing, whenever i'm in the city, no matter what time no matter where, i never see a soul working on either of these things except near south station. but it's wierd, something new is getting put up everytime.
Matt
>I guess that would explain why the north-south rail link and the big >dig is gonna take so long to finish
>here in boston. But a curious thing, whenever i'm in the city, no >matter what time no matter where, i
>never see a soul working on either of these things except near south >station. but it's wierd, something
>new is getting put up everytime.
No, the Big Dig is taking a long time because it's an extremely poorly planned project. Have any of you all checked out the www.bigdig.com website? Well worth a laugh: they actually say with a straight face that the extra lanes on the Central Artery will reduce traffic congestion for decades to come. Sure, reduce it over its current state of construction-gridlocked mayhem, for maybe two years, but after that...
Also humorous is the section on artists "inspired" by the Big Dig. No mention that these artists were comissioned to do those pieces!
A similar situation is the I-95/I-495 Interchange in Springfield, VA, the most infamous bottleneck on the whole 95 corridor. For through traffic, four lanes narrow to two for half a mile, then merge into high-speed traffic from the left. So what do the geniuses at VA DOT decide to do? Reconstruct it by adding extra lanes where the nice wide median currently is, nice and wide enough for a 2-track right of way plus stations.
Yes, that's absurd, preposterous, ridiculous, all of the above. And that's with a few sections of tunnel already in place. I think we should do like they did on the Williamsburg Bridge - give the builders and contractors some nice incentives to complete the job in five years. They CAN do it if there's enough in it for them to make it worth their while. The squeaky wheel ALWAYS gets the oil.
Wayne
8/18/99 12:46A
Wasn't the first New York City subway,the Interboro,built in four years? And this was before the advanced construction equipment they have today !!
Bill Newkirk
It was also in the days of cheap immigrant labor, before environmental impact statements and OSHA.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I doubt that dragging on the work would make it any cheaper with higher salaried employees. The EIS is done before the project starts. As for OSHA, 95 years of technology helps out safety. There is NO REASON why a shorter line should take more than twice as long and the 7 year 63rd Street Connection in Queens is RIDICULOUS!!!
The EIS is part of the overall cycle time, and invariably it introduces additional work that must be done during the contruction process - not that this is necessarily bad in the long run, but it does increase the length of the construction process. Ditto for the OSHA regulations. Some of these are needed because of technology that didn't exist when the original line was being constructed, but some are simply there because we, as a society, value things different today. When the original line was constructed the builders didn't place a very high value on the lives of their employees. After all, they were simply immigrants, and if they happened to get killed on the job they could be cheaply replaced. Society accepted that attitude then, and the workers knew that that was the risk they accepted when they took the job. Nowadays that attitude isn't accepted, and the OSHA regulations exist to make sure that workers don't get hurt or killed. But these regulations add time and cost to any construction project.
There are a lot of other factors - union featherbedding chief among them - that aren't legitimate, from my point of view, but EIS and OSHA do add a lot to the cycle as well.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Another thing - I'd guess that there are a lot more utilities, and in some cases other subway/RR tunnels, to work around. And I would say the level of street level disruption tolerated today is probably quite a bit lower than a century ago.
Absolutely. In a discussion on this forum several months ago it was postulated that the only way the Second Avenue line would get built was by deep tunnelling because of all the environmental considerations - contaminated soil, utilities, etc. - at the cut-and-cover level, not to mention the NIMBYs. The poster suggested, and I would tend to agree, that the overall project cost would be lower and take less time using a deep tunnel because there would be far fewer signoffs required.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ Deep tunneling the 2nd Avenue subway ]
A reading of the history of the construction of the first subway suggests that, though Manhattan is famed for its solid bedrock, the composition of the bedrock and other materials which would need to be tunneled through is often unpredictable, expensive and dangerous.
Still, you'd think that if the maze of subways, railroads and utilities at Herald Square could be carried off, something could be done with 2nd Avenue.
One point that was made here about tunnelling vs. cut-n-cover:
Stations that are deep increase travel times, which is not desireable, because it takes time to hoof it up and down the stairs. To have the advantage over cut and cover, the tunnel has to be pretty deep. So there is a disadvantage.
When they built the WMATA line under 14th st in DC, they tunnelled it, but they built quite a number of shafts down to track level (I'd guess it was 40-50' deep). The shafts were big - maybe 30' wide and 100' long. I guess it was for ventilation, but it seemed to be really big for that, and I could never figure them out. But I suppose it was still cheaper than digging out the whole the street. And I suppose it was less disruptive, too, but you would not have known it by tooling down 14th St. in 1995.
One of the things I learned while watching that was that trolleys, with a conduit for the power cable, ran up 14th St. The steel rails and conduit were removed during the subway construction. I had a devil of a time figuring out what the conduit was - the question got answered for me on the usenet.
Unfortunately, I can't find the pictures. If I ever do, I'll offer them for inclusion on this site!
The sections that were built in the 1970s were cut-and-cover, right? So building a deep-tunneled subway would mean losing that work. It still might make sense, though.
Yes, the '70s segments are cut-and-cover. Building a deep tunnel would mean abandoning all of that work, but probably not the segment built on the "other side of the wall" at Lexington Avenue and 63rd Street - that is relatively deep to start with, plus it is a connection from another line.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Would it be possible to use the cut and cover portions and build fairly shallow additions without using cut and cover? I'm not an engineer so I don't know if the entire line would have to be cut and cover to utilize the built portions.
The proposed new line will be bored thru rock between 63rd St and 92 St, where the top of bedrock drops dramatically. Continuing as a rock bore north of this point would result both in really deep stations and not allow for the use of the already constructed segments. So the line from 92-99 and 105-110 will be cut and cover (this section includes two stations, which would have required cut and cover anyway). This is not radically different from the 1970s plan (in fact, much of the 63rd st line was built with early model tunnel boring machines, which BTW are still in use on the 3rd water tunnel project).
The segment from 116/2 Av to 125/Lex will be largely bored thru rock (tho it is probably too short a segment to efficiently use a TBM--likely it would be mined or blasted out).
I'm not an engineer either, but I don't believe it would be. The two chief problems with working close to the surface are buried utilities and soil contamination; right behind those is street disruption and the need to shore up adjacent buildings. None of those problems would go away if you substituted a shallow tunnel for cut-and-cover - you'd still have to dig up the street to relocate the utilities (and therefore would have to deal with the soil contamination issue), and the older buildings would still need some form of support. I would still personally prefer to see cut-and-cover used where possible, but I'm not sure the tree-huggers and the NIMBYs will permit it.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The thing about cut and cover is you can dig down along the whole length at once (well not quite, traffic needs to get through somehow). Boring has to crawl from one end to another.
If you're going to bore, why not just connect it to the Bronx and build it without stations between upper Manhattan and Midtown? The Lex Local could be turned at 125th on a new loop and serve Manhattan exclusively. All Bronx trains would then run express.
Wasn't it originally planned as this sort of super express? My impression is all the local stops have been added essentially for political appeasement purposes.
See the Green Line south of the loop in Chicago for another example of stops for political purposes.
(Wasn't it planned as a super express). I think it was.
Upper E Side residents on First and York do have a long walk to the Lex, but if you could build an express from 110th to 72nd without breaking the surface for much less money, the might go for it -- especially if one also built a loop at 125th and turned the #6 around. You could also eliminate Lex express service at 86th. Bronx and upper Manhattan residents would speed to Midtown and Downtown as fast as possible. Upper East Side residents would be Lexington Local service all to themselves.
The financial savings would be monumental.
At 72nd, you'd need a station so that Bronx riders could have a choice of turning west or going south. You'd need additionl Second Avenunue stations to serve Midtown, as previously planned -- one of the 63rd St tunnel lines from Queens would turn south down 2nd Avenue, also as orignially planned.
I like the idea of sending a spur out to the Rutgers tunnel, as the RPA suggested, coupled with linking the A and B tracks from DeKalb to the tunnel on the other side.
South of Grand Street, I don't think the Water Street subway is really needed. I'd run the 2nd Avenue down Park Row and in to the Nassau St line south of Chambers. We've never really gotten full use out of the Nassau St subway, and with all its connections it is really well placed. Some Willie B trains could be turned up 6th Ave.
Would the #6 be enough? I think so. Without switching and merging, and with better signals, you should be able to get 30 trains per hour out of it -- that's 30,000 people per hour at tolerable comfort. And, the 2nd Avenue subway stations at 125th, 116th, 108th and 72nd, and the Lex Express at 125th, would pull people off it.
"South of Grand Street, I don't think the Water Street subway is really needed. I'd run the 2nd Avenue down Park Row and in
to the Nassau St line south of Chambers. We've never really gotten full use out of the Nassau St subway, and with all its
connections it is really well placed. Some Willie B trains could be turned up 6th Ave."
I agree, below Essex Street, the J M and Z runs pretty empty.
"Would the #6 be enough? I think so. Without switching and merging, and with better signals, you should be able to get 30 trains
per hour out of it -- that's 30,000 people per hour at tolerable comfort. And, the 2nd Avenue subway stations at 125th, 116th,
108th and 72nd, and the Lex Express at 125th, would pull people off it."
What's the point on putting the 2nd Avenue line on Lexington Avenue and 125th Street? Doesn't it make more since to have it on 125th Avenue and 2nd Avenue with the next stop at 138th Street 3rd Avenue (the Bronx). Just makes more since to me.
Above all, how can the 2nd Avenue line really compete with the Lexington Avenue line if their isn't any express stops above 72nd Street?
I propose these stops:
149th Street (3rd Avenue) 2,4, 5 lines
138th Street (3rd Avenue) 6 local/express
125th Street (2nd Avenue)
116th Street (2nd Avenue)
106th Street (2nd Avenue)
96th Street (2nd Avenue)
86th Street (2nd Avenue)
79th Street (2nd Avenue)
72nd Street (2nd Avenue)
57th Street (2nd Avenue)
42nd Street (2nd Avenue) 7 line
34th Street (2nd Avenue)
23rd Street (2nd Avenue)
14th Street (2nd Avenue)
Express Stations:
149th Street
138th Street
125th Street
72nd Street
42nd Street
I like your idea. On my version of the 2Av line, 59-Queensboro Bridge is an express station with a transfer to the N,R,4,5,6 via passageway....
2Av line:
125St*
116St
106St
96St
86St
79St
72St
67St* Q line comes in
59St-Queensboro Bridge* (N,R,4,5,6 via Lex)
50St
42St-United Nations* (4,5,6,7,S via Grand Central)
34St*
28St
23St
14St (L via 3Av)
9St
Houston St* (F)
3TM
59St-Queensboro Bridge*
"On my version of the 2Av line, 59-Queensboro Bridge is an express station with a transfer to the N,R,4,5,6
via passageway...."
3 Train, what do you think about having retail stores in the passageway (similar to Rockerfeller Center)? Could it generate revenue that the subway system so badly needs?
I also propose a 125th Street line with a retail passageway as well.
What does everyone think?
If it helps the subway, then I say go for it.........
3TM
125St*
116St
106St
96St
86St
79St
72St
67St* Q line comes in
59St-Queensboro Bridge* (N,R,4,5,6 via Lex)
50St
42St-United Nations* (4,5,6,7,S via Grand Central)
34St*
28St
23St
14St (L via 3Av)
9St
Houston St* (F)
I would like to see this happen Mike:
Express Stops:
149th Street/3rd Avenue (good choice because many of the lines meet here - 2, 4, 5 lines).
138th Street/3rd Avenue (scrap this plan - 6 is local in Manhattan)
125th Street/2nd Avenue (scrap this plan - 4, 5, is express at this station. Plus, the population is low in this area.)
96th Street/2nd Avenue (good choice because of hospital and population)
65th Street/2nd Avenue (possible, but 57th Street prefered because of "connection with the N,R 4,5,6)
57th Street/2nd Avenue (very thiving area)
42nd Street/2nd Avenue (got to have a express station here because of the united nation)
34th Street/2nd Avenue (area designated).
14th Street 2nd Avenue (possible)
Houston Street/2nd Avenue (no- Grand Street prefered)
Everyone, any other suggestions?
I agree, except for minor details: 96th as an express stop, 50th and 65th as new local stops.
On the subject of Rudy; Don't you wish our "union" had his b@lls and backbone?
Why should it take ten years to build. Aren't there already four sections of tunnel built back in the 1970's that are still in mint condition?
Built, yes. But two segments around the 100's are in use, so I have been told, as records storage for the City, so first an alternative storage site must be located. The 700' section in Chinatown is in very good shape - leaking a little bit, but no more than any other section of the subway, and nothing that couldn't be repaired in a relatively short amount of time.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[But two segments around the 100's are in use, so I have been told, as records storage for the City, so first an alternative storage site must be located. The 700' section in Chinatown is in very good shape - leaking a little bit, but no more than any other section of the subway, and nothing that couldn't be repaired in a relatively short amount of time.]
Records storage in two of the segments? That's interesting news, at least it means the segments are being put to *some* use - though it sure would be a lot nicer to see trains in them!
There also was a fourth segment built, around 9th Street in the East Village, but it was filled in some time ago.
I now know that St. George bound (Geographic north) is time table east and vice versa, but I have another question. I was riding again yesterday, and the signals (at least the ones I could see) have a sign below the round signal face with the following printed on them--
W or W
11-50
On the LIRR Far Rockaway branch, once you reach Hewlett, you are on an
Eastbound train travelling west all the way to Far Rockaway.
If your traveling from Tottenville to St George your actually travelling westbound,hence the "W" on the signal. This goes back to the days when the SIRT continued west to Cranford Jct in New Jersey.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I now know that St. George bound (Geographic north) is time table east and vice versa on the SIR, but I have another question. I was riding again yesterday, and the signals (at least the ones I could see) have a sign below the round signal face with the following printed on them--
W or W or E
11-50 10 - 50 8-28
but the signs with W were definitely on the St. George bound (east-bound track), while the E signs were facing me as I rode toward Tottenville (west-bound). Can anyone explain?
Because you're backwards.
On the SIRT, St. George is WEST. Tottenville is EAST.
This is because from B&O days, the railroad directions are figured from Cranford Junction, which is west of Staten Island.
I guess what you mean is that starting at Cranford, then heading east along the old SIR north shore route and then, even considering a change in direction (via ST. George) then back to geographic SW ( to Tottenville)the route direction as a whole is still considered east because the starting direction from Cranford was east originally, and vice versa. If thats the premise, I understand. Thanks.
Yes, on SIRT everything is east in a continuous direction from Cranford Jct. There is no change of direction at St. George.
So, on the Tottenville Line, east is west and west is east. (Compared to some local politics, that may be small change)
I always remembered Eltingville is East of St. George.
On the LIRR "W" means whistle.
Check out www.ny1.com. It is claiming that the Willie B tracks were installed incorrectly, and will have to be torn up and relaid, with a substantial delay.
Just read article. It claims tracks were "hammered" into place. Are the spikes hammered into the ties using a hydraulic machine? How could this cause rail damage? Any track experts out there with a possible explanation? . i
I'm not an expert, but I have looked at the hardware used to attach the rails to the ties. Few, if any, spikes were used to attach the running rails. They are held in place by something that looks like a heavy steel spring clip. The guardrails are held by spikes, but I don't see how a "dent" in a guardrail, which won't come close to a whell unless their is a derailment to begin with, could effect operations.
The article says the problem is that "Sources close to the project say the tracks were hammered in place
and that may have dented the rails."
Also, it says that NY1 called the MTA, and were told to talk to DOT, who said there was no problem, and the project was still on schedule.
Sounds to me like they are full of sh**, or got some "source" who is. What is this "hammered in place" thing supposed to mean? I haven't seen the tracks, but I suppose they're using conventional tie-on-steel stringers, with pandrol clips holding the rails to the ties. Nowadays, using concrete ties seems to be the thing, but I think that on the steel structures, wooden ties provide some helpful cushion that would normally be provided by ballast.
Can a rail "dent" cause a derailment?
--Mark
" Can a rail "dent" cause a derailment? "
I don't think that "dent" is a clearly defined term in the study of track geometry.
If you took your standard 20oz hammer, and swung at a rail all day long, you wouldn't likely be able to make enough of a mark that you'd be able to see from more than a couple of feet away. You probably wouldn't feel anything as you passed over it in a train.
Even with a 5lb sledgehammer, you probably couldn't cause enough damage to a straight rail to be able to cause a derailment.
Now, with some heavy equipment, you can mangle rails in all kind of interesting ways. If it was something that could cause a derailment, I'd call it more than a "dent".
Something that was of a size reasonable to call a "dent" might cause some bumpiness as cars passed over it, and could certainly cause interesting changes in wheel and track wear patterns. But if it was enough to cause a derailment, I'd say it was more than a dent.
As you can see from my earlier response to this, though, I don't put very much credit on this particular report, and have a feeling that the reporter was misled, and because the story was somewhat sensational, didn't do enough to verify the information before spreading this rumor.
If it means anything, signal department has been working on the Essex tower machine since last week, wiring it up and so forth for the track circuits and such.
Whatever this report said, rumors were the talk of the day today as even superintendants were talking of an extended pick and problems with shoddy track installed. Anyone remember the Manhattan Bridge fiasco ten years ago? If it is true we will confirm it within 7 days as the pick was schedules to begin on the 29th. It would be nice to see the D.O.T. get their $100,000 bonus per day finished early while the TA can't run trains over it for months. Unfortunatly as in the case of the Avenue M boondoggle where the roadbed was rebuilt 1 foot higher than the platform and the managers accountable were fired on paper but in reality given demotions, no one in the TA will be fired if this case turns out wasting taxpayers money. What powers does the inspector general have to prosecute these idiots at Livingston and Jay Street. How can they hang one track foreman and not their excess oversights?
What about South Ferry, they had to tear it all up when they poured too much cement as well.
What does DOT have to say about the rails? The reporter asked the TA who are the ones that will okay the new Rails over WillyB, not the DOT. (Yes I know DOT is in charge of the project).
Also, don't forget the Queens Blvd. Viaduct rebuilding back in the late 1980's. Didn't they have to rip up all of the newly laid tracks to do even more repairs after they thought they had finished the project in 1989?
Sounds like this pattern is repeating itself. Shoddy workmanship, or work which was improperly done causing expensive rework.
This is getting off topic, but the same thing happened to UConn's library. I was still there when it was originally built, and within a few years after I graduated, scaffolding was erected all the way around it. It seems the exterior bricks were crumbling and had to be completely rebuilt. On top of that, a steel reinforcing band had to be put in place around the entire foundation. Repairs were finally completed last year. Being a state university, all contracts are awarded to the lowest bidder. You get what you pay for.
I was taking the #7 line to Times Square yesterday (Aug 16).
The R110A was passing through the Fifth Avenue Station at 11:20 AM. It had no passengers and was not stopping. The train operator blew the horn and proceeded through the station slowly.
I did notice that the windows that had the side digital destination signs were removed. The main part of the signs were gone and all that could be seen were the brackets.
The train was headed towards Queens. Thanks.
I have some questions about the current MU series on MNCR numbered in the 1100s. These cars were built around 1963-65 or so. Are these cars similar to the LIRR World's Fair cars? What differences are there if any? BTW - I realize that the LIRR demotored theirs in the early 70's and used them in diesel haul service. I'm referring to the as delivered design of these cars.
Did the LIRR classify their World's Fair cars as MP75s? And if they did, would this make the 1100 series MP75s or is that classification scheme only relevant to the particular railroad that owns the cars?
I'm curious and any answers will be appreciated.
/*I have some questions about the current MU series on MNCR numbered in the 1100s. These cars were built around 1963-65 or so.
Are these cars similar to the LIRR World's Fair cars?*.
They are related. Both were built by Pullman, they have simmaler interiors, both are airconditioned. I believe the LIRR versions used GE traction equipment, like the MN ones do. There are a few differences however:
1) The absence of automatic doors on the ACMU (that's the MN version).
2) the absence of the "bump" in the front by the brake stand - lookat a picture of the LIRR cars and you'll see what I mean
3) the ACMU has a slight taper at the ends - it's also either a few in wider or a few in narrower (I forget).
4) There are likely a few other differences, all minor.
/*
What differences are there if any? BTW - I realize that the LIRR demotored theirs in the early 70's and used them in diesel haul service. I'm referring to the as delivered design of these cars.*/
I'm not sure exactly what they were like as delievered, AFAIK, there are NONE with motors anymore. They likely had pneumatic doors all along. And Speed Control (though no speedo!)
/*Did the LIRR classify their World's Fair cars as MP75s? And if they did, would this make the 1100 series MP75s or is that classification
scheme only relevant to the particular railroad that owns the cars?
*/
No, I believe the MP-75s are the larger diesel cars. Who equipped them, I don't know - the LIRR used Westinghouse on the MP-54, 70, and the origional double deckers. Not sure about the MP-41, MP-72 (I think that's the car in question, or was it MP-73?) and MP-75
BTW - they're nicknamed "zip" cars, because they apparently could accelerate faster than the other cars, though this is all realative - the MP-54s were probbably not very fast!!!
The car designation is generally up to the RR, though a few (Noteably MP-54, and any diesel locomotive) were used by multiple RRs. Sometimes the same car can have two different names - like the H&M K ands PRR MP-52 cars - same car, different name for each owner. I won't even start to sort out the various designations the PC gave everyone's MU's.....
Which scheduled trains run these cars? I want to ride!
If you are talking about the MNCR ACMU cars - you can find these on rush hour trains only on the Hudson and Harlem divisions.
Harlem line ACMUs never go North of North White Plains unless there is some kind of special move.
Hudson line ACMUs never go North of Croton Harmon where third rail is just about at it's end.
Keep in mind that only a small proportion of ACMUs are used even at rush hour any more as they are pretty old and (I think) not able to keep up with the acceleration necessary on the main lines. But they are still definitely in use as I spotted one arriving in Croton Harmon around 7PM on Monday night.
To find these trains on MNCR - go to GCT during rush hour and look out on the tracks. Look for the 1100 series numbers and grab a seat.
As for the LIRR versions of these - you probably know that they are being retired as we speak. They were demotored years ago and only run in diesel hauled configuration - and rarely anymore at that.
The "bump" on the front/rear of the LIRR World's Fair cars has something to do with them being equipped with the ASC systems. I read this somewhere in an article on the rehabilitation of the MP54's, etc., in the 1950's; the article said that cars that gained the ASC equipment also gained that bump or bulge.
Yes, the LIRR World's Fair most definitely WERE MP75's. The cab cars (2525-2536) were designationed MP75c (the "c" suffix on LIRR denoted that it was equipped with ASC). The motor trailers (2675-2692) were designated MP75T (the "T" being, of course, for trailer).
They did have the pneumatic doors right from the time they were built. If you look at older LIRR photos, particularly those in the grey color schemes, you will see (near the doors at one end of the car) a decal of two letters -- "CD" -- meaning they were equipped with "Centralized Door" control systems. In other words, the pneumatic, conductor-controlled doors.
The MP72 series were the 1955 Pullman-built stuff. They were:
MP72c 2501-2522 motor cabs
MP72T 2601-2674 motor trailers
T72 2801-2844 unmotorized trailers.
Both the MP72 and MP75 groups were converted to diesel-hauled, HEP-equipped, push-pull cars in the 1970's. Some even became parlor cars.
There was yet another group of cars VERY similar to the MP72 groups, however, they did NOT get rebuilt. Basically they were mechanically similar to the MP54's, but had the newer style carbodies. They were the MP70TS cars of 1953, numbers 3500-3519. Though they looked very similar to the MP72 series, they had openable windows, the old "coffee grinder" traction motors that hummed/growled, and NO air conditioning. (The MP70TS designation? Motor Passenger, 70-foot inside length -- inside the passenger compartment -- "T" for trailer, and "S" for single deck to distinguish them from MP70T double decker #1347.)
/*The "bump" on the front/rear of the LIRR World's Fair cars has something to do with them being equipped with the ASC
systems. I read this somewhere in an article on the rehabilitation of the MP54's, etc., in the 1950's; the article said that cars that
gained the ASC equipment also gained that bump or bulge.*/
I'm not so sure. Looking at MP-54 #4137 - the ASC equipment isn't in that area - it's hung under the car, with the ADU (aspect diplay unit) in the upper lefthgand side of the cab - right by the window. BTW - it reads 15, 30, and MAS. There *IS* an awful lot of piping there, but again, the ASC did most of it's work under car - I'm not sure how it picks up the car speed, or if it/how it kills traction (my guess is interrupting either the 8, F, or R wire, or just cutting off the air and venting the pipe running to the switch group - but there are other ways to do it too)
I've also heard the bump came about after the rebuild because of added on dynamic brakes. I don't buy that, though. I've yet to see an early (builder's?) shot of the MP-54 (etc) - maybe they always had that bump?
/*There was yet another group of cars VERY similar to the MP72 groups, however, they did NOT get rebuilt. Basically they were
mechanically similar to the MP54's, but had the newer style carbodies. They were the MP70TS cars of 1953, numbers 3500-3519.
Though they looked very similar to the MP72 series, they had openable windows, the old "coffee grinder" traction motors that
hummed/growled, and NO air conditioning. (The MP70TS designation? Motor Passenger, 70-foot inside length -- inside the
passenger compartment -- "T" for trailer, and "S" for single deck to distinguish them from MP70T double decker #1347.) */
It's possible. There were plenty of variations to the basic theme. I won't even go into equipment ones - the PRR used at least 2, andprobbably 3 or 4, different types of switch groups - in addition, at least a few of theirs were equipped by Brown Boveri, not Westinghouse)
Coffee grinder traction motors? I've heard sound clips (MP-3), of Lacawanna MUs - Man were those things *loud*
Hmmmm......now I'm trying to remember where I read that about the bump/bulge appearing when ASC was installed.
But, I just checked "Electric Heritage of the LIRR 1905-1975" by Ron Ziel/John Krause, and that bump/bulge is definitely NOT anything to do with ASC. It was on some cars as early as 1942 in the photos in this book, yet ASC was invented (or at least first installed on LIRR) in the very early 1950's.
In 1935/1937 photos, the arch roof cars did NOT have the bulge.
In 1942, car 1561 did have it.
In 1949/1950 photos of MPB54 combines, they did have the bulge.
And a 1971 photo of a 4100 series car, it did have the bulge.
All the post-war-built double-decks had the bulge, too.
I just checked all the photos of LIRR MP54's I have on the computer, from the mid-1960's and they all have the bulge.
Funny thing is, older photos of the cars without the bulge look sort of naked!!
If I find the source of info on the "bulge" I'll try to remember to post it.
/*But, I just checked "Electric Heritage of the LIRR 1905-1975" by Ron Ziel/John Krause, and that bump/bulge is definitely NOT
anything to do with ASC. It was on some cars as early as 1942 in the photos in this book, yet ASC was invented (or at least first
installed on LIRR) in the very early 1950's. */
I'm almost certain it was there, on some cars at least, from the start. It's RIGHT where the ME-23 brake valve is.
As far as ASC being on cars in the 50's - Yes, I've read this - HOWEVER, from one book (and the title slips me, might have been "Next Stop Grand Central"), I read a description of the engineer at fault's account of the 1950 head on at Rockville center. From what I recall, he said that he passed out, and when he came to, his *cab control whistle* was blowing. No idea what the was though - the cars had whistles instead of buzzers for the conductor's signals, origionally
Is it possible that there was an earlier system that would whistle, but not enforce the speed limits? Though the system installed, as it stands, probbably wouldn't have avoided the accident anyway - it will let you roll along at 15mph through a stop signal, and that's what the limit on the temporary trackage was (I believe). Unless the guy really did black out, but the car should have dumped, as you have to hold the controller out of the emergency position at all times - reversing was fun, because you had to pass through emergency to do it (the controller was much like was NJT MUs have on them)
It's still pretty interesting - the cars have cab signals. but no speedo. The bulge might just have been a design feature of some cars.
#4137 (built 1930) at Seashore sure has a lot of air gauges to it - I'm not sure if this was a result of the rebuild - the PRR versions (as of 1927), only had a single duplex gauge (brake pipe / main pipe). #4137 has 2 duplex and one single. I believe one was labeled "suppression", but they were all really dusty.
The first ASC systems were labeled the PRR tags, BTW, yet I thought the PRR cut the LIRR loose in 1950.
BTW - I believe you acknowlaged the signal with the foot pedal (well, it's really just a little metal tab stick out of a box). I couldn't find an ack button on the ADU box itself. But the MP-54 cab is full of identical, and poorly labeled, switches. Coupled with the many variations, these cars must have been fun to learn!
Well, the earliest photos I found showed cars in 1942 with the bulge. I'm sure, from the looks of the bulge, that the cars had them from birth, so to speak. None looked like they had any modification in that area.
I don't know of anything that could be referred to as the "cab control whistle" prior to ASC being installed. If there WAS some sort of warning system having to do something with track signals, I'd presume that both the Rockville Center and Kew Gardens catastrophes might have been averted.
I remember engineers (motormen...) pressing a pedal, it was in the center of the operating area of the cab, up against all the other stuff, it was a pedal about 3" square, metal, and there was sort of a small box that it attached to. As I remember, it stuck out sideways from the box.
Okay, I found it!
Back to....
"Electric Heritage of the LIRR 1905-1975" by Ron Ziel and John Krause.
Page 39, top left photograph.
The caption reads:
"The substitution of electro-pneumatic brakes on the MUs in place of conventional air brakes called for a good deal of new wiring and made necessary the creation of a bulge in the front end (cab) panel of MP54's. A worker in the eletrical shop at Morris Park is putting some of it together."
So.....I was wrong in stating that I thought the bulge was something to do with installation of ASC! Checking that same book proved that the bulges existed long before ASC did, with photos in there as early as 1942 depicting the bulges in existence on the MP54's.
Now...to shed more light on this discussion, there is an errata sheet in my copy of "Electric Heritage of the LIRR", written on 8/14/86 by Ron Ziel. Apparently Mr. Ziel was not satisfied with the publisher...but there is a correction regarding the above photo caption.
It states:
"Perhaps the most critical mistake of all! The electro-pneumatic brakes were installed years before this early-1950's photo. On account of two disasterous (sic) MP-54 wrecks which killed over 120 passengers in 1950, the LIRR was court-ordered to install Automatic Speed Control on all power units (including steam and diesel engines). This worker is installing ASC (as the original caption on back of the official LIRR photo clearly stated)."
Now I see where I got ASC mixed up with the bulge, however, I think we can now all safely assume that the bulge on the front of the LIRR MU cars was for electro-pneumatic braking equipment inside the cab.
And this leads me to a question (going back to where all this discussion started....): Did MNRR's 1100 series MU cars have eletrco-pneumatic braking when they were built (no bluges...)??
I don't think the ACMUs had them. Though, I believe they have dynamic. The valve on the current ACMUs doesn't look like it has an electric portion - you can tell because it's a box that swings open, with a conduit coming out of it - the handle plugs in there, on top. I'm not sure if the ACMU is self lapping - the MP-54s sure weren't. BTW - the electric brakes on the MP_54 are the only way to obtain a graduated release - with them cut out, the release is direct (like a freight). Another nice thing about them is thy will hold the brakes, yet still recharge ("electric holding"). This doesn't really add much in the way of wireing - though the ASC installation sure did!
Anybody know if #614 will be in Hoboken for fan trips anytime soon? My son is interested in actually riding it this year. We've watched it leave in the past.
It came in the fall in 96 and 97, but I missed it last year if it came.
I understand that it is currently impounded, the result of divorce proceedings between its owner and his soon-to-be-ex-wife. Until that issue is settled it won't be going anywhere.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
How would that work out? If the judge awards her the house but orders him to pay the heating bills can he write off the coal in the tender? If she gets to keep the train must she be forced to apply to NJT for a Locomotive Engineer's licence? Maybe he keeps the tender but she gets the engine on the 50/50 principle. Does he pay her union dues? Is Naporano a third party lien holder? Is the 614 and it's tender considered a married pair? Somebody help me.
I understand that some years back he put the loco in her name to avoid it becoming tangled up in some other rather complicated business affairs of his. Now she's trying to hold on to it, I guess as a bargaining chip for additional money that he says he doesn't have.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm sick and tired of articles that give the impression that the CTA system is either on the verge of collapsing or in actual collapse. (No reference to you in particular is intended here or anywhere in this message, BJ.)
"For riders who don't abandon the CTA in the meantime in search of more dependable transportation..."
Last time I checked, ridership was going UP. Not impressively up, but up all the same. What is with this "Chicken Little" from the Tribune clucking on about people "abandoning" the system?
Does CTA have problems? Damn straight it does! Have they made service cuts? Yes, there are fewer rail and bus routes with owl service, and A/B skip-stop was disposed of. Did they get rid of the conductors, except while trains are running in the downtown subways? Yes.
But on the other hand, they are reopening long-closed station entrances, and indeed entire stations (Grand/Halsted on the Blue Line). Trains have been added to the schedules of several lines. Station stops were significantly longer when OPTO began, but now the delay between closing the doors and starting the motors is almost imperceivable. Under A/B service, without a center passing track, one train would often catch up to the one ahead of it, and the time savings was often zero.
Most importantly, it seems evident, at least to me, that CTA has finally rejected the false logic it consistently applied in the 1980s and early '90s of repeated service cuts and fare hikes, which would drive away passengers, which would lower revenue, which would prompt CTA to institute further service cuts and fare hikes. Anybody who commuted during the '80s, as I did, can see the difference in CTA's attitude now. They haven't gone all the way, but they have definitely made a start.
I'm not saying that the CTA isn't in need of even more improvement, nor am I saying that riders shouldn't press for such improvement. We all should, and I have certainly not been reluctant to send e-mails and letters to the CTA reporting particular problems. But to repeatedly comment on the negatives while totally ignoring any positives is not productive in the least, and will not build the necessary working relationship between the CTA and its passengers.
Large transit systems encounter delays and other circumstances that inconvenience passengers but are not necessarily within the TA's control. Buses get stuck in traffic. Trains are delayed by sick passengers, "police action," and fires in buildings along elevated portions of the line. Anyone who pays his or her fare can ride the system, and that sometimes includes people who talk to themselves or otherwise show signs of mental instability but who cannot legally be removed from the trains because they are not violating any law or presenting a danger to self or others. Yet some people seem to attribute every delay and inconvenience, and every disturbed person on the system, as an act of negligence or even malice on the part of the TA. I am thinking in particular of Aaron M. Renn's e-zine about the CTA, "The Weekly Breakdown" at http://www.urbanophile.com/breakdown/ which makes little or no effort to distinguish between problems within the CTA's control and those outside its control.
I totally agree with you John. I think this article just points out that that CTA Management disapproves of the attitude of some of it's staff members and knows that they have come a long way from the way the CTA used to be, but still have a long way to go before they see that reliable, safe, clean, efficient, and on time light at the end of the tunnel.
BJ
I'm gonna be Polyanna here and in a fit of boundless optimism assume that we actually get the 2nd Avenue subway from 63rd Street to 125th Street.
Then what?
Most attention seems to be focused on where the line would eventually go south of 63rd Street, but there the alternatives seem fairly clear.
How can it expand north of 125th Street?
I don't think that the MTA is going to be in a big hurry to pay for a $billion or so per mile subway to the far reaches of the Bronx, so how could the 2nd Avenue line relate to the current system? The problem is, of course, that it will be a B Division Line poking into A Division territory.
The late 1940s era BofT plan called for the line to have a terminal at 149th and 3rd to connect to the White Plains and 3rd Avenue lines, which would enable the eventual demolition of the 3rd Avenue el south of 149th Street (no, the latter is not a typo or a joke).
The plan also would have connected the 2nd Avenue to the Pelham Line, either taking it over or providing the weirdness of BMT-IND express service and IRT local service.
So, there's no more 3rd Avenue el to connect with. What elese can we do to prevent building another "line to nowhere"?
(2nd Avenue to 125th). Unless the construction unions are promised more work when that section is completed, it never will be. They will be "working" on it for decades, and for billions, and never allow it to be done.
The best candidate for replace will be the 5 to Dyre Avenue from 180th Street. It will use the "old" Boston/NY railroad all the way to 138th Street under the triboro bridge. Then, a tunnel to 125th Street and 2nd Avenue.
N Broadway Local
You Nut N Broadway Local & that not going to work ethier.
Peace Out
Meaney
8/18/99 12:25A
(N) Broadway local,
Wait a minute! I dontthink using the old NYW&B right of way will work.
Part of the structure was demolished so the TA could expand the already razed Colisuem bus depot. That kills that idea !
Bill Newkirk
If your going to build new, the best thing to do is replace the Southern Blvd el, which is too close to the #6 and duplicates it, and build a subway up 3rd Avenue and the Boston Post Road to 180th St. The #2 train would terminate in the Hub, the Pelham Line would run as a Lex Express, and the Lex Local would get a loop at 125th and turn around. But that's all fantasy. There is so much more ahead of it on the list, and we only do one thing per decade at most (and we skip a decade every three).
Whether Pelham would be converted to wide car (chopping off the platform edges and moving the track trips would be the major things to do), there's no reason why a Second Avenue Bronx extension to 149th Street couldn't run north by using the outer tracks on what's now Metro-North, paralleling Third Avenue all the way north. All the commuter trains would use only the center tracks, perhaps with an optional stop at Fordham Road, and people living along the Third Avenue corridor would have rail service again. It might be considered as a way of "repaying" the commuter lines for closing the old Bronx stations along that line.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
(Home after Boston and Seashore)
They could do that now, reopening several closed stations in Manhattan on Park Av., that were mentioned hear a while ago. I don't know why they won't consider this, as an interim solution.
Too expensive. Doesn't accomplish anything. Screws up Metro-North.
"Too expensive. Doesn't accomplish anything. Screws up Metro-North."
Thank you Eric B!
But it's still better than nothing.
It's less than nothing. All the platforms would have to be rebuilt. There is is no street access at present. It only takes you to Grand Central. The real problem is East of Lex; Park is West of Lex. There will be subway entrances on Park Ave. North of Forty-Eighth Street (where they are installing the new Grand Central exits) after Hell freezes over or the Red Sox win the World Series, whichever comes first.
> There will
>be subway entrances on Park Ave. North of Forty-Eighth Street (where >they are installing the new
>Grand Central exits) after Hell freezes over or the Red Sox win the >World Series, whichever comes
>first.
I'd better call my friend in Boston, because according to the Times, those entrances opened yesterday. Anyone try them out yet? Opinions?
Also, anyone catch the article in today's Metro Section responding to the current 2nd Ave. proposal? I think it's absolutely right -- halfhearted measures can in fact be worse than nothing at all. And they mention the added stress on the Lex which will come from the planned Grand Central LIRR access -- something folks on this site have been talking about for weeks.
Skip S. Topp
Skip, I meant North of the Grand Central exits. No need to call Boston.
Or when the pope gets married.
Or when the R-10s get resurrected and put back on the A line.
OK, I'll stop now.
So that would mean that those entrances would be openned in the Middle Ages! The church wasn't always as "clean" as it is today. One or more popes has been known to have been married. Legend also has it that St. Peter was married and had children.
What's so "clean" about not marrying?
I meant not about marrying. I meant that the church is clean in that it's clergy generally follow the rules.
Not legend, but St. Paul in 1Corinthians 9:5 (using Peter's Hebrew name Cephas).
Anyway, the line would take some people off the Lexington, and this until they can build 2nd Av..
This is totally off-topic, but...
Yes, St. Peter was married. And at one time, Catholic clergy could, and did, marry. The catch was the Church had to support their families. Finally, to put an end to this, some pope in the Middle Ages issued an edict forbidding married clergymen. I wouldn't have a problem with priests being allowed to marry, but that won't happen anytime soon. Not as long as John Paul II remains pope.
Anyway, your reference to the Middle Ages would be correct.
(Still off topic)
My understanding of the modern Catholic church's theory of priestly marriage is that the priest needs to minister to his entire flock almsot as a parent would, and that having a wife and children (or, for that matter, the attachment of a love relationship) creates a divided responsibility inappropriate to the priest's calling.
IOW, the problem of priestly marriage is not morality, it's inappropriateness. If I've misrepresented this in any way, I apologize.
How well this works in practice is an issue for the psychologists, sociologists and religious leaders.
(Back on topic).
How about having the 2nd Avenue jog east to Randall's Island, then north to the Bronx. Yes, that's two water crossings, but both are narrow -- neitehr is the Hell Gate. If the train was sufficiently well connected in the Bronx, Randalls might be good for something (such as a new stadium for the Jets). You already have the road capacity, but no amount of roads can avoid a jam-up at a stadium. You need a subway for that.
How about having the 2nd Avenue jog east to Randall's Island, then north to the Bronx
That's an interesting thought, but people are saying the TA wants to run the 2nd to 125th and Lex ... you want to go the opposite way.
Unless, of course we make the 2nd-Lex connector a shuttle (Shades of the original Grand Central and 34th Street shuttles).
"TA wants to run the 2nd to 125th and Lex ... you want to go the
opposite way."
As a matter of fact, shouldn't they be a crosstown division (along 125th Street) that will hook up all the lines. A passageway could be built throughout the whole route consisting of retail shops (similar to Rockerfeller center). This will bring revenue to the subway system.
Better yet a crosstown line seperate from the second Avenue line that will as serve Randalls and Wards Island.
What does everone think?
I will really love to see the new line connecting metro north with the IRT through passageway.
(Still off topic)
You're exactly right. The issue has been debated considerably, but this isn't the right place to delve further.
So, when do you think those entrances will open? When the Red Sox win the first ever World Series in 1903, or 1912, 1915, 1916 or 1918?
Probably 1918. I hear that Ruth kid has a wicked fastball.
Yeah. What a waste to put him in the outfield!
That's my point. They were open then.
"Whether Pelham would be converted to wide car (chopping off the platform edges and moving the track trips would be the
major things to do), there's no reason why a Second Avenue Bronx extension to 149th Street couldn't run north by using the
outer tracks on what's now Metro-North, paralleling Third Avenue all the way north. All the commuter trains would use only
the center tracks, perhaps with an optional stop at Fordham Road, and people living along the Third Avenue corridor would
have rail service again. It might be considered as a way of "repaying" the commuter lines for closing the old Bronx stations along
that line."
I don't like this idea either. As I mentioned before, these lines also are over saturated. What we need is a new truck line along third avenue (possibly elevated)ending at Fordham Road/Grand Concourse (connecting the B and D). And an extension of the D to White Plains Road/Gun Hill Road (connecting the #2 and #5 lines).
Thats not what we need. THATS WHAT YOU WANT!!!!!!!!!!!
Two questions:
1. What obstructions would have to be overcome to convert the Pelham Line east of Lexington Ave. to operate BMT/IND-sized trains? The obvious ones to me would be the necessity of enlarging the subway between the portal at Whitlock Ave and the connection to the 2nd Ave Line, and enlarging the station platforms from 510 feet to 600 feet.
2. What areas of the Bronx are in greatest need of rapid transit service? It would appear to me that the borough is well served by the various IRT lines.
- Jim (RailBus)
1. What obstructions would have to be overcome to convert the Pelham Line east of Lexington Ave. to operate BMT/IND-sized trains? The obvious ones to me would be the necessity of enlarging the subway between the portal at Whitlock Ave and the connection to the 2nd Ave Line, and enlarging the station platforms from 510 feet to 600 feet.
Making the line 100% BMT/IND would be no big deal. The tunnels and structures are already capable of handling B Div. dimension and weight equipment, so it would essentially be a matter of trimming the platforms, making sure lineside equipment clears, and changing the trip cocks. Also figuring out the transition, so the people on the line aren't deprived of service for too long durng the switchover.
A problem with making the line 100% B Div. is that then Lex service would be lost to Pelham Bay rider and they'd be forced to take 2nd Ave.
More problematic was the other proposal--express service only would be 2nd Ave. BMT/IND, with the locals remaining Lex. IRT. I really don't know how they would have accomplished it. Pelham is only three tracks, so what would they do? Run the trains out to Pelham in the PM, store them at Pelham overnight, and run them back in the morning? Doesn't sound great to me.
2. What areas of the Bronx are in greatest need of rapid transit service? It would appear to me that the borough is well served by the various IRT lines.
I was thinking more as to how 2nd Ave. service could run on current lines.
If only the Contract One and Two subways were built for 10 foot cars in the first place...
Perhaps the new 2nd Avenue line could connect to that Third Avenue line using NYCentral tracks or NYCentral ROW that was never built.
Also, just as the University line in Toronto is basically a way of relieving traffic on the Yonge St. Line, the 2nd Ave. line is mainly a way of diverting lots of Upper East Side traffic off the Lexington Line. Let that be built first, then worry about extensions. If it ran into the Broadway BMT line, that line would finally be completely utilized.
Another idea will be to run a new truck route along lafayette Avenue (Elevated Of Course). This will reduce the need for passengers to use the Lexington Avenue line above (Westchester Avenue).
N Broadway Local
Another idea will be to run a new truck route along lafayette Avenue (Elevated Of Course). This will reduce the need for passengers to use the Lexington Avenue line above (Westchester Avenue).
Don't forget 3rd Avenue though.
N Broadway Local
As mentioned by other posters, the Bronx is fairly well served by the IRT lines. And at a gazillion dollars per centimeter, subway extensions to residential areas in the outer boroughs just aren't likely.
I'm not an engineer, so I don't know if it's feasible but how about tunnelling toward stops after 125th Street at Randall's Island, Riker's Island, the Marine Air Terminal and the LGA Main Terminal.
Chuck
Rikers Island? Wow! They don't have to make rafts anymore, just forged Metrocards.
Perhaps the inmates tunnel out right into the subway tracks and divert a getaway train right into the courtyard. LOL
"This is a Freedom-bound CellBlock C local. Stand clear of the closing doors"
Pelham 1-2-3, or deja vu, all over again.
If such a line were to be built, the R-68s or R-44s could be assigned to it. Then, if a train is hijacked, the city could do what the mayor in Pelham suggested in the first place: let them keep the %&%$##$ subway train.
I think any NY politician who supported sending the 2nd Ave Line east from 125th instead of north would lose the entire Bronx vote in the next election.
Bronx had substantial service from the east side els, all the way up to Van Cortlandt Park and to Freeman Street. Seeing the replacement service go to Queens would be kind of an insult.
Actually, it could do both - east to LGA, then north to Soundview. Perhaps with a stop near the Hunts Point Market. End the line with a transfer to the 6 at Parkchester (approached from the south along White Plains Rd.)
It could be done, but it's a safe bet that it won't be.
Instead of the Bronx, perhaps the line could turn into Queens and go directly to Laguardia Apt. Maybe even a part-time stop on Randall's Island could be built.
There is no more Third Ave. El, but there is still the subway (2 and 5 lines) at 149th St.-3rd Ave; a transfer could be built there. Getting from 125th St. to 149th/3rd in one stop rather than three would make the trip seem a lot faster...
As for the Pelham local/express configuration, that is something I had considered also, I didn't know it was ever part of an official plan. If the express B-division service operated rush hours only, or even weekdays only (which it would have to), it could go only as far as Parkchester, since the platforms at Castle Hill Ave. through Pelham Bay Park would need to remain IRT to accomodate off-peak or night/weekend service. Trains would stop at Third Ave., Hunts Point Ave. and Parkchester, then proceed into Westchester Yard, from which they would be dispatched again the next weekday morning. Off-peak (or night/weekend) Second Ave. service would terminate at 125th St. The signals on the center track of the lower Pelham line could be set up with dual stoparms so that IRT Pelham Local trains could be rerouted onto it if necessary to bypass stuck trains, switching to the local track to pick up or discharge passengers.
Another possibility that had been proposed was to run Second Ave. trains on the New Haven RR (now Amtrak/Conrail) right of way. There is room on parts of this line for two additional tracks, where the tracks of the old New York, Westchester and Boston line formerly were.
Having separate tracks (and erecting a fence between them and the mainline railroad tracks) is apparently sufficient to meet the FRA requirements for separation of traffic.
The 1970's proposal called for refurbishing the NYW&B viaduct south of 180th St. and sending Second Avenue trains, or some of them, to Dyre Ave. This option is not currently available, since the part of the NYW&B viaduct south of 177th St. has been dismantled, but conceivably it could be rebuilt, and the still-standing portion from 177th to 180th St. rehabilitated to implement this plan.
A final alternative would be to continue along the Amtrak right-of-way to Co-op City (Erskine Place/Section 5). The problem there is that the basic right-of-way is only four tracks wide north of where the NYW&B turned off. Amtrak and the successors of Conrail may not be willing to permanently give up two tracks to the subway. But considering the level of service on the line today, they probably could do so without adverse impact.
I don't think the trip arm solution is important. The L line will be Electronically signalled around 2001. When and if a Second Avenue line in operation, it will be built with electronic signals and may even be automated with other lines half automated/not automated for phasing in systemwide.
"Having separate tracks (and erecting a fence between them and the mainline railroad tracks) is apparently sufficient to meet the FRA requirements for separation of traffic."
This sounds right, as there are at least two places on the CTA L system where L trains share a viaduct ROW with mainline railways. Specifically, the Purple Line shares part of the Union Pacific-North viaduct in Evanston, and the Green Line runs on part of the Union Pacific-West viaduct in Oak Park. In both cases, there is a fence between the CTA tracks and the UP tracks. And I am fairly sure that the CTA is not subject to FRA regulations.
Same thing with the Red Line in D.C. at Rockville and Shady Grove.
As far as the Second Ave. line goes, the could extend it straight up the Harlem branch of Metro North to Gun Hill Road, which would come pretty close to paralelling the upper section of the Third Ave. el torn down 25 years ago. Put in stops only at Gun Hill, Fordham Road, Tremont and 149th before going into Manhattan and it would draw a lot of people off both the 2 and D lines.
I think a Pelham Line link-up is a fine idea. The ride on that #6 local is plenty long. With some of the Bronx riders diverted to a somewhat quicker 2nd Avenue line, the Lex local could be turned around at 125th for a Manhattan-only short service, and the 86th St express stop could be closed, speeding even more Bronx/upper Manhattan riders along.
Still, it won't to Brooklyn and Queens riders any good. The 63rd St interchange was build for some of the 2nd Avenue trains to head for Broadway, and some Queens trains to head down 2nd Avenue. A faster route to the East Side is needed by everyone. The TA ended up with too much capacity between 6th and 8th Avenues in Midtown.
I don't think that going to work.
Peace Out
Meaney
Too many businesses around 86th and Lex would go wild if the station was cut back to local-only service.
Those of us who live here wouldn't be thrilled, either.
Okay before we extend the proposed 2nd Av line into the somewhat well served Bronx, let's send the E line into the not so well served southeast Queens.
They won't convert the Pelham line to the B division. It took us 20 odd years just to get a line from Rockefeller Center to 21st St Queensbridge and now we're just getting the connection to the Queens Boulevard corridor.
But the people - or at least their elected leaders - of southeast Queens have said they do NOT want subway service in their community. Why pursue something that is unwanted when there are other places in need of service?
"As for the Pelham local/express configuration, that is something I had considered also, I didn't know it was ever part of an
official plan. If the express B-division service operated rush hours only, or even weekdays only (which it would have to), it
could go only as far as Parkchester, since the platforms at Castle Hill Ave. through Pelham Bay Park would need to remain
IRT to accomodate off-peak or night/weekend service. Trains would stop at Third Ave., Hunts Point Ave. and Parkchester,
then proceed into Westchester Yard, from which they would be dispatched again the next weekday morning. Off-peak (or
night/weekend) Second Ave. service would terminate at 125th St. The signals on the center track of the lower Pelham line
could be set up with dual stoparms so that IRT Pelham Local trains could be rerouted onto it if necessary to bypass stuck
trains, switching to the local track to pick up or discharge passengers."
Leave the #6 the way it is - change the #5 Dyre Avenue Line.
Don't forget the 3rd Avenue and Lafayette though.
I think it makes sense to extend the 2nd Ave Line, via Dyre Ave, to Co-Op City. That would give the line a solid base of passengers right at its start. Previous posters have suggested extending the line to the Dyre Ave line via the MNRR Harlem Line or ex-Putnam Division ROW. That sounds OK to me, too.
--Mark
The MTA's plan has the 2nd Avenue Subway turning west, and stopping at the 125th St stop on the Lex. If it goes that way, perhaps a cross town line on 125th St to the river is a more realistic unrealistic fantasy. Transfer stations from the 2/3 and A/B/C/D would be available. Perhaps it could go elevated in the industrial area on 125St near the river as the land falls away, and terminate at a MetroNorth/Amtrak stop and ferry terminal 125th St on the Hudson.
This is a very stupid idea: "The MTA's plan has the 2nd Avenue Subway turning west, and stopping at the 125th St stop on the Lex."
The 2nd Avenue Line should go straight up third avenue in the bronx!
Another stupid idea: "Perhaps it could go elevated in the industrial area on 125St near the river as the land falls away,
and terminate at a MetroNorth/Amtrak stop and ferry terminal 125th St on the Hudson."
perhaps a cross town line on 125th St to the river is a more realistic unrealistic fantasy.
Mayor Hylan had this fantasy, too. One of his 1922 proposals was a crosstown line at 125th St from the Hudson River to the east side, then over a new East River bridge into Queens, perhaps Astoria.
--Mark
I suppose they could turn the Second Ave. line up 125th to St. Nicholas, then connect it up with the Eighth Ave. line (six tracks wide above 125th, so a space for a ramp is already in place). From there it could either go to 168th-Washington Heights, or share track with the D train into the Bronx, which would eliminate the need to build a new Harlem River tunnel.
After 161st St., the line could split off from the D when it turns up Grand Concourse and continue east to the old NYWB right-of-way, and follow it up to the Dyre Ave. link-up. Admittedly, not the most direct route, but the most direct route downtown from upper Second Ave. isn't by way of 63rd St., either.
At the risk of offending some Bronx or Queens Residents, (I'm sorry if it does) why does it have to extend any further than the upper East Side. The whole idea of it was to replace the 3rd Av El in Manhattan. As an earlier poster stated, "the First & Second Av buses are the most crowded in the nation. The Lex is bulging at the seams. We need the 2nd Av train, but with construction expenses being what they are we shouldn't make any more than we have to. The Bronx has more than enough public transit and the proposals about going to Queens via a new tunnel is just too big a project in this age.
BTW, in the 1950 video "The Vanishing El" which I mentioned in an earlier post the narrator gives the 2nd Av Subway as one of the reasons the Third Av El is doomed!!!
my transit buff page
$3.5 billion is an awful lot of money for a new mainline that only serves one area.
And being that it would be on the upper east side (below 92nd or so probably the richest area in the nation) denying convenient service to the thousands of Bronx riders now stuffed into the Lex raises serious class issues.
The Lex would be alot less crowded with the 2Av Line
>The Lex would be alot less crowded with the 2Av Line
Not if the 2Av terminated at 125th. I regularly get on going downtown at 110th, and the 6 is usually pretty darn full at rush hour -- not as full as it will be by the time it reaches GCT, but quite full. Also, co-op city is _not_ adequately served by transit, given its huge population (density comparable to the denser parts of Manhattan, I believe).
Skip S. Topp
I suspect the 2nd Avenue wouldn't be that croweded if it only served that one area, and was only good for those going to the West Side or Downtown. A full length 2nd Avenue would relieve crowding for the entire length of the line, and give Brooklyn and Queens riders a way to get to E Midtown other than the Lex. The part below 63rd is probably more important than the part above, unless the 2nd Ave would be faster than the Lex Local and could substitute for it.
One way to ease the "class issue" is to make 86th St. a local stop. Then the people from the Bronx could ride their express without having to deal with those rich riff-raff crowding their trains.
I agree that the proposed 125th/63rd. st. route will be inadequate and a waste of money if it's the only planned construction. This route should should be Step 1 in the construction of a complete 4-track subway running all the way down to the East Side and connecting into an existing East River crossing for service into Brooklyn and Queens (I suggest splicing it into the Nassau St. line for service on the Eastern Division and the 4th Ave. BMT.) as well as some connection into the Bronx, most likely making up for the loss of the Third Ave el in '73. Even if it takes 30 years, it's still needed, so lets start digging now!
"I agree that the proposed 125th/63rd. st. route will be inadequate and a waste of money if it's the only planned construction.
This route should should be Step 1 in the construction of a complete 4-track subway running all the way down to the East Side
and connecting into an existing East River crossing for service into Brooklyn and Queens (I suggest splicing it into the Nassau
St. line for service on the Eastern Division and the 4th Ave. BMT.) as well as some connection into the Bronx, most likely
making up for the loss of the Third Ave el in '73. Even if it takes 30 years, it's still needed, so lets start digging now!"
I fully agree with your above paragraph ChrisR. It must be a 4 truck line if it's going to compete with the Lexington Avenue line. Also, service along 3rd Avenue (the Bronx) and lower Manhattan must be in the plan before work is begun.
N Broadway Local
"would eliminate the need to build a new Harlem River tunnel."
Not a good idea. The 8th/6th Aveneue lines is already saturated. And yes, a harlem river tunnel is needed.
If the D can share trackage with the B and Q from DeKalb to Rockefeller Center, then the 155th St. tunnel to the Bronx should not be at capacity right now during non-rush hour service, and should still be slightly below than even when the Concourse B is running.
After 161st St., the line could split off from the D when it turns up Grand Concourse and continue east to the old NYWB right-of-way, and follow it up to the Dyre Ave. link-up.
That would be ironic if it were built.
One of the arguments the Bronx people who wanted the City to buy the NYW&B (Dyre Ave. Line) r-o-w was that it would serve the same area as the planned extension of the Concourse Line at much lower cost.
Grade crossings were a topic a few days ago--from looking at Michael Adler's 1949 SIRT map, it looks like there would have been tracks crossing at grade just below Clifton there prior to the discontinuation of that service.( South Beach bound track crossing St. George bound track.)
That's correct. The South Beach Line crossed the Tottenville line at grade.
I read a report in a local paper today which stated that the long awaited Jubilee line extension in London is due to open on 6th September. I think it said this year! Good news for all.
Very good news that phase 2 (North Greenwich to Waterloo) will be opening soon, (phase 1 Stratford-North Greenwich open allready).
Subtalkers may wish to learn the following useless fact! the Extended Jubilee Line is the ONLY "tube" line that connects with E V E R Y
other London Underground line in operation........ :^)
regards
Rob :^)
Does anyone know the dates each of these cars were officially retired and what lines they ran on when they were taken out of service? I already know the R7/R9 cars that were transfered to the JML lines saw their last service in March of 1977. Any info is greatly appreciated.
I think the last of the R-6s went out in 1976 or so. They kind of went in stages. Last time I saw an R-6 it was on the "CC". A few of them were still kicking around on the "E" and "F". R-1 was mostly gone by 1970, last seen on the "CC"; R-4 was mostly gone by 1971-1972; again, last seen on the "CC" and "D".
I think Larry-RedbirdR33 has the exact dates.
Wayne
I think it's a safe bet that the R-6s may have been the only prewar IND veterans to last 40 years. Basically, they were used only during rush hours in their final years.
The last of the BMT Standards, creaking along the "M" line and Culver-Shuttle, probably lasted about 45 years. I saw one barreling towards me at the front window of a "QJ" train on September 19, 1968; we were somewhere around Flushing or Lorimer Street going west, and this beast was making tracks eastbound in the center. On November 29, 1968, I saw one on the "KK" train, of all places, going northbound at Bway-Lafayette while I was on the southbound platform. I thought it was a work train at first, until it stopped and opened its doors. It had a "57th Street" and "Eastern Parkway" sign in the side on some cars, others were blank or empty. The last ride for me on a BMT Standard came on April 11, 1969, on the Culver Shuttle.
Wayne
That's a trip I would have like to have had a camera for to take pictures at the northern end -- a KK train of BMT Standards barreling into the West Fourth St. station on the lower level local track headed for 57th and Sixth Ave.
Did any of its route signs say Broadway-Brooklyn Local? I know that particular title was abbreviated on the roller curtains.
My last ride on a train of BMT standards was also in the spring of 1969, in the April-to-June time period, on the Canarsie. On one occasion, I was going through the iron maiden gate to the Manhattan-bound platform at Lorimer St. just as an R-7/9 train was leaving. As luck would have it, the next train consisted of BMT standards.
By my calculations, the standards as a fleet put in 47-48 years of service. Not too many of them lasted 50 years on an individual basis.
An incredible run, and only the current R32 has a shot at making it past 50 yrs. of service.
The R-32 might last 50 years providing they get replacments of the floora and the removal of the NYAB brake units would help their MDBFs somewhat I would imagine. I noticed at Pitkin they are steam cleaning or pressure washing the dirt and grease from the pantograph springs and end bulkheads at the ends of some of the cars. Is this done for movies or are they putting a concerted effort into appearance. Some of them look as good as 3974, one of the cars steam cleaned and painted for the Duke Ellington special train a few months back. A lot of stainless steels cars ends are really shabby looking and the car washes don't work to remove excess Dry Slide from the upper door hangers. I would imagine the manpower hours is what is holding the TA back from running true Brightliners again. If overhauled again, what is likely to be replaced?
I think the R38 also has a shot at it; they're in GREAT shape except for the Bondo lines on their roofs; they should sand that down and paint it grey.
Wayne
Virtually all of the Gibbs Hi-Vs lasted 50 years, and three of them put in 53 years.
I think at least one of them had a "Bway-Bkln Lcl" side sign. Many of the signs were missing. The train was in VERY ratty shape, as far as I could see. The Standard on the Culver Shuttle I rode the following spring was even worse. Seats were missing, glass had cracks etc. It's a wonder they let it stay in service. I don't think it got any faster than 15MPH, and it groaned, creaked and squeaked all the way.
Wayne
I saw a train of BMT standards signed up as a Broadway-Brooklyn Local in March of 1968, only it was laid up on the center track at either 111th or 160th St. on the Jamaica line. That was during my first experience on that partucular line, on a JJ train of R-27/30s. I took it from Elderts Lane to 168th St. and back. The doors didn't stay open for more than maybe two seconds at any station; this was on a Sunday afternoon.
The air in the brake cylinders comes from the auxilary reservor right?
If there is a leak from the tank the train would lose the brakes?
How is the tank refilled? The brake cylinders are released everytime
the brakes released. If the motorman fan the brakes, he/she could drain the aux. reservor or if the compressor breaks down, the brakes would be lost?
Whoa whoa who.....what type of equipment are you talking about?
Not SMEE, because there is no aux res on that. If you are
talking about AMUE (used on the R1-9s, LoV, D types et al)
or any other kind of "A" braking using a reduction-type brake pipe,
then the quick answer is: the air goes into the aux reservoir
from the brake pipe while the train is running in release. When
the brake pipe pressure is reduced to make an application, air
goes from the aux to the brake cylinders. When the brakes are
released by raising the BP pressure, air is exhausted from the
cylinders.
After an application and a release, it takes time for the aux
reservoir to build up again. Fanning the brakes will result in
reduced braking effectiveness. A leak in the auxilary reservoir
will affect that car only. If the leak is bad enough, the brake
pipe will not be able to charge up and the brakes will stay applied.
There are significant complications when discussing a more advanced
system such as AMUE. Please be specific about the equipment
you are interested in.
a loss of brake pipe pressure would result in an emergency application of the brakes.
A rapid loss of brake pipe pressure would result in an emergency application.
When the J train leaves Chambers Street for Parsons/Archer, the train has to go through a maze of switches to reach the Canal Street Station. Does anyone know why the train must do this and where do all these tracks lead to? Did they go to an abandoned subway line or tunnel?
The two tracks that the Brooklyn Bound J cross over were origionally tracks that went over the south side of the Manhattan Bridge. The train would come from Brooklyn through the tunnel, make it's stops to Chambers Street and head back to Brooklyn over the Bridge. At that time the north side of the Bridge was connected to Canal Street on the N line (the platform that is presently not in use).
By the way, those tracks are used for cold weather plan lay ups.
And for the Brooklyn rush hour only M's while the Williamsburg Bridge is closed.
The Nassau St. Line divides into 2 sections above Chambers St. The 2 easternmost tracks lead to the Canal St station and continue towards the Williamsburgh Bridge. The 2 westernmost led directly to the sout side tracks on the Manhattan Bridge. Before 1967 the Manhattan Bridge was served by both Broadway and Nassau St trains. That year the northern tracks on the bridge were moved over to the 6th Ave. line and the south side tracks were cut-off from the Nassau St. line and connected to the Broadway line. Those 2 unused tracks you refer to used to lead directly to the bridge and continued over it and back int Brooklyn. Today they are just dead end spurs occasionally used to store trains.
The Chambers St station was originally designed to be a terminal for trains coming in from Brooklyn via Centre St and the Williamsburgh bridge (as it does today) and from Dekalb Ave via the the Manhattan Bridge.
That interlocking must have been an absolute nightmare when the Nassau Loop used to run. All those inbound trains coming off the Manhattan Bridge crossing in front of northbound trains headed for Canal St and the Willy B. Yikes! Can u say gridlock?
You got it backwards, the western tracks go up to Canal and the eastern tracks used to go over the bridge
Actually, I was describing it coming into Chambers, not leaving. In that way, the tracks coming from Williamsburgh are indeed on the east side.
Thanks for explaining all that to me Chris. I didn't know the Manhattan Bridge used to connect to Chambers St. The interlocking maze is so huge. Looking out at the trackage while I was in the head end car one afternoon, I was afraid that the train would stall because the complex switching made the train leave the third rail for a longer period than normal. But that fear was unfounded.
For more information on the track layouts, both pre- and post-Chrystie Street connection, check out the track maps elsewhere on this site.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back in those days, the Nassau St. line was known as the Nassau Loop. Trains entering Manhattan via the Montague St. tunnel would head up Nassau St., then once they got past Chambers St., they would return to Brooklyn over the Manhattan Bridge. The opposite held true for trains entering Manhattan via the bridge; they would return to Brooklyn via tunnel. One question: supposedly, the Bankers Specials used to deadhead over the bridge in whichever direction they were going. What about Culver and West End Short Line trains?
You could resurrect a one-way loop of sorts today by tying the easternmost track at Chambers St. to the DeKalb-bound south side bridge track. Not that it would ever happen, of course.
Thanks for the info, Steve. I have one question. When the Manhattan Bridge was connected to the Chambers Street interlocking, did trains comming off the bridge stop at Canal, Chambers, Fulton, Broad Street, and then went back into Brooklyn? I believe you mentioned this already, I just want to be sure.
They did not stop at Canal - the "loop" portion of the Nassau Street subway turns eastward just before Canal Street then it turns again onto Canal Street itself.
Wayne
Until about 1958, the Bankers Special trains did actually run passenger service "around the loop". If I recall correctly, they went as follows:
Culver Exp. did the Nassau Loop southward from Kings Higway (later Ditmas Ave), up the 4th Ave. line express track, bypassing DeKalb and Myrtle to the Manhattan Bridge south tracks to Chambers, then all stops to Lawrence St., using the crossover from the tunnel tracks to the DeKalb bypass track to the 4th Ave. express tracks and back to Kings Highway.
Brighton Nassau also did the Nassau Loop southward, but did not skip DeKalb or Myrtle (although, before the early 50s, I've head that it skipped DeKalb and Myrtle Manhattan bound). These trains ran express on the Brighton line to Coney Island. In the late 50s, stops at Neck Rd. and Avenue U were added, using the crossover tracks south of Kings Highway.
West End Short Line ran from 62nd St. or Bay Pkway, using the 4th Ave. local tracks, and did the Nassau Loop northward, via the Montague St. tunnel to Broad St, then returning to Brooklyn via the Manhattan Bridge. (Stopped at DeKalb and Myrtle).
4th Ave. Special from 95th St. used the express tracks on 4th Ave north of 59th, bypassing DeKalb but using the crossover north of DeKalb to the via tunnel tracks, did the Nassau Loop northward, back to Brooklyn bypassing Myrtle and DeKalb and express down 4th Ave.
-- Ed Sachs
Unless I'm misreading the routes you described, I can't understand where this crossover north of DeKalb from the tunnel tracks to the DeKalb bypass track is/was because I can't find it on the track maps.
Has this crossover been removed prior to the track maps being done???
The entire DeKalb complex was rebuilt in the late 50s and the station itself was shifted northward to eliminate the curve at the southern end of the station. Basically, the various switches and crossovers were moved to where they are now; i. e., south of the station; prior to rebuilding, there were scissor switches between the bridge and tunnel tracks north of the station, in addition to crossover switches from the bypass tracks to the tunnel tracks. The Myrtle Ave. station was sacrificed in the process.
Thanks---I guess I'm too young (I can't believe that's possible) to remember it any other way than it is now.
It was removed when the whole area was redesigned sometimes in the 1950's. The area where the curtain wall ends at the north end of the station is where that crossing used to be. It was eliminated when the station was extended northward, in the area where the bridge platform rises above the tunnel platform and feeds into the now closed exit.
Thanks for the info. I was under the impression that the Bankers Specials ran as such only in the peak direction during rush hours.
My 1948 Hagstrom's BMT map has "via Nassau Loop" for the West End Short Line; my mid-60s Hagstrom's map simply says "via tunnel" for the TT. Did TT trains still do the loop circuit? I get the impression that no trains ever reversed direction at Chambers St. except the Myrtle-Chambers line.
The rush hour Bankers Specials did the loop circuit. By the 1960s, there was no regular passenger service over the south side Manhattan Bridge tracks, and they were used for deadhead moves (the Bankers Specials only carrying passengers in the peak direction, via the tunnel).
During non-rush hour weekdays, Culver locals, and later West End locals (TT) operated to Chambers St. via tunnel, using the Manhattan Bridge leads as lay-up tracks.
-- Ed Sachs
Clarifying Ed Sachs's description of Nassau Loop service, through the 1950s (until DeKalb reconstruction), the Bankers Specials ran thus:
Morning:
Brighton Special bypassed DeKalb and Myrtle and went over the Bridge, then downtown to Broad Street (which was "northbound" in BMT terminology). It then went back into Brooklyn via the Tunnel but I don't recall which Brooklyn route it took.
Fourth Avenue Special bypassed DeKalb and Myrtle and went over the Bridge, then downtown through Broad and back into Brooklyn, usually as a Culver Express (skipping DeKalb). Until 1955 or 1956, Fourth Avenue Specials (and morning rush-hour Sea Beaches) also skipped 36th Street.
Evening:
Brighton Special started at Chambers and went through the Tunnel, stopping at the Tunnel stops and DeKalb (there was no connection from the DeKalb bypass to the Brighton), and then express down the Brighton.
Fourth Avenue Special started at Broad, then stopped at Fulton and Chambers, then over the Bridge (skipping Myrtle and DeKalb), running express down Fourth Avenue.
Culver Expresses ran counter-clockwise (Bridge/Nassau/Tunnel) and West End Short Line ran clockwise (Tunnel/Nassau/Bridge). Odd routings at the beginning and end of rush hours occurred--a Culver Local going from Chambers over the Bridge, for example.
BTW, Chambers was also the terminal for the Franklin-Nassau (Sea Beach) service during summer Sundays and holidays.
Last thought--I don't recall that any regular service (or rush-hour specials, for that matter) ever skipped DeKalb Manhattan-bound to run into the Tunnel.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
> Last thought--I don't recall that any regular service (or
> rush-hour specials, for that matter) ever skipped DeKalb
> Manhattan-bound to run into the Tunnel.
I do recall PM rush hour 4th Ave. "Bankers Special" doing just
that around 1957 or so.
-- Ed Sachs
In response to my comment,
>> Last thought--I don't recall that any regular service (or
>> rush-hour specials, for that matter) ever skipped DeKalb
>> Manhattan-bound to run into the Tunnel.
Ed Sachs wrote,
> I do recall PM rush hour 4th Ave. "Bankers Special" doing just
> that around 1957 or so.
Since there weren't any Manhattan-bound Brighton or Fourth Avenue specials in the evening, it's possible that what you're referring to was a Culver Express that was rerouted into the Tunnel instead of going over the Bridge. But how were those trains signed?
(I was out of the City from late July in '57 until January of '59, and with the preliminary work on DeKalb starting, all kinds of things might have occurred.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Re: PM 4th Ave. Banker's Specials
The trains were signed for 95th St-Ft Hamilton (I don't remember all of the signs). I'm not sure where they started, but they did run from Pacific St. (northbound express track) through the DeKalb bypass to the tunnel to Nassau St., then back to Brooklyn via bridge.
-- Ed Sachs
Responding to Ed Sachs's explanation of afternoon Nassau St. specials, knowing the way the old BMT (both as private company and NYCTS division) operated, I'm not surprised to discover something even 40 years after it operated. I suppose it's even possible that I might have ridden that p.m. routing, but I don't think so.
Thanks for clearing it up.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Back in the 60s, TT trains ran all the way to Coney Island during middays, as the T express ran essentially during rush hours with an hour or so of overlap (5:00 AM to 10:00 AM; 3:00 PM to 8:00 PM). If the TT didn't deadhead over the bridge back to Brooklyn, it must have reversed direction at Chambers St., correct?
Steve: Thats correct,basically the TT ran MF 6a-6p between Chambers and Bay Parkway extended to Coney Island midday. Trains reversed north of Chambers with I think one or two that deadheaded to East NY.
Naturally there was an exception to this. It was the last BMT service to actually loop the loop (with passengers). The #2(M) left 95 St in tne am rush and ran express from 59 Street to Chambers St, bypassing Dekalb via the south side of the bridge. From Chambers they ran south making all stops as TT's to 9 Avenue or Bay Parkway via Tunnel.
In the pm rush they left Bay Pkwy or 9 Av and ran as TT's to Court St,leaving Court the conductor would walk through the train and change the signage to "S"Special. The front of the train carried an "M" though. The next stop would be Broad St and then back to Brooklyn via the bridge and local on 4 Avenue to 95 St.
Naturally if Standards were used they simply carried Fouth Av-Nassau signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I just created a Long Island RR e-mail discussion list. Anything and everything pertaining to the LIRR past and present can be discussed. Check it out at:
www.onelist.com/subscribe/LongIslandRR
-Josh Trower
At around 5pm today I saw a southbound 5 speeding empty through rector st. and then at 14th street there was another empty 5 speeding downtown on the 7th ave. express tracks. The one at rector was probably being turned around on the inside southferry loop, but where did it come from? Did it go empty all the way from the bronx?
There was a problem at 86st & there were no downtown express around after 3:30pm today. All trains ran on local track.
Peace Out
Meaney
It was report a broken rail at 86th Street Downtown Lex Express track. All service on 4 ran local 125th to 42nd, no #5 service (around 4pm) wsa annoucned at 125th St.
Ok, so how did the 5's wind up at rector?
If it was headed southbound, it was rerouted down the West Side. If it was headed uptown, it was probably turned around at South Ferry.
Basically, what it boils down to is this: If you're a 5 train at Bowling Green on the Southbound platform, you can accept a lineup for either the inner loop, which turns you around and goes back up the Lex, or the outer loop, which will put you on the track heading up the West Side.
If you're a 5 train at coming into South Ferry from the West Side, chances are the train was running light from Chambers St. It runs on the express track, switches over to the local and discharges passengers. Trains at South Ferry's outer loop can go around and swing back up on the West Side, or take a lineup and switch to the inner loop and proceed to the East Side upon leaving the station.
During special GO's or General Orders, trains have run with passengers between the East and West Sides.
Here's an odd reroute: During the Lenox Rehab in 1998, I was waiting at 96th St on a cold weekday morning for the Broadway Local. On the express track arrives a 2 train with #5 signs which clearly was supposed to go up the Lex but was rerouted. There were no other uptown 2s scheduled to come up at that hour of the morning, but this one came. 96th St dispatcher gave the train operator orders to dump his train and change ends. A Relay T/O was put aboard the north end as the regular T/O went to the south end. The train proceeds to 103rd St middle and comes back south carrying no passengers. Where do you suppose he was heading to? The Dispacther also gave orders to the T/O to proceed south around South Ferry Loop, where he would switch to the inner loop and go into service at Bowling Green. How do you like that?
-Stef
Yes it was a Mess. The No.4 trains made Local stops from 125 Street to Grand Central. No.5 trains were rerouted by the West side. The Brooklyn Bound No.5 Trains followed the No.2 Line route to Nevins Street. Bowling Green Bound trains Were sent down the Express to Chambers then down the No.1 Line to South Ferry where they there swiched back after the station.
I almost put my train in Emergency when I heard Control Center. The guy sliped and said Southbound No.5 trains were being rerouted down the westside Highway then currected himself and said Westside Subway.
I don't see why the 91st Station was abandoned--there would be enough room to put off-hour trains in it. However, it would be hard to renovate, given the extensive graffiti. I don't know how the graffiti artists can get into that station, since it is sealed off from the street. Furthermore, it is probably almost pitch black in there, so I don't see how they can see what they are doing. Plus, trains use the tracks that pass through that station, so it is extremely dangerous. I am not a graffiti artist, but this does not seem possible given the potentially dangerous conditons.
91st street was closed because 96th street was lengthened to the south and 86th street to the north, putting entrances at 88th and 93rd. If 91st had also been lengthened to the north it would have very nearly connected with 96th.
Check out the information on this site at Disused and Abandoned Stations - there are photographs of the station and a link to Brennan's page with descriptions of this and other closed/never opened stations.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Ahem. There has never been an entrance to 86th Street at 88th, although the platforms extend that far north. There is a part-time southbound entrance at 87th, but that was built when the building on that block went up (about 10-15 years ago). (I've spent most of my life living at 88th and Broadway, so I should know these things.)
The 91st Street station would serve no purpose today -- who would pass up the opportunity of twice as many trains 2.5 blocks further north? The 96th Street station has an entrance between 93rd and 94th.
I stand corrected. The 87th street entrance was what I referred to as the 88th. And, not being a native of that neck of the woods, I didn't realize it hadn't always been there. (The Day One tour offered by the Transit Museum needs to make that clearer also.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Dangerous it is. There is no entrance except by track. Dark it isn't. The incandescent lighting remains on. Which brings us to the next question: Does this mean they change the bulbs when they burn out? Why?
The 91st street station was closed when the southward expansion of the 96th st station was deemed to close. Reopening it would mean expanding it to accomodate 10 foot cars. And cleaning the graffitti is very easy when using the right chemicals and powerwash.
Bill Newkirk
plenty of unauthorized people walk the tracks(homeless/vandals/thieves/etc.) regardless of the danger..
You would be amazed on what ROW structures get tagged with grafitti. I've seen the center of elevated trestles tagged! Who in their right mind would want to take that kind of risk? (Unless they stole a cherrypicker ....)
--Mark
The 54th/Cermak (Former Douglas) Branch of the CTA Blue Line is finally seeing it's renovation begin. After much talk of shutting the line down and the last CTA staff just letting it rot when it should have been renovated before the Green Line.
I was riding the Blue Line Forest Park Branch today when I noticed the Elevated Connection between the Douglas and Congress line's being renovated. About 1/4 of it has already been completed and some other parts are covered up by tarps. Despite the decrepit state of the Structure, the CTA has successfully kept service running through the renovation.
They haven't officially announced the renovation yet and have good reason not to. They are still trying to squeeze another 95 million out of the Feds for this and other projects and are using the Douglas branch to show just how badly the money is needed. Even if the Feds give the CTA 0.00 they still can complete this and the Ravenswood project with the $1 Billion received from the Illinois State Government from the Illinois First Plan.
I am really happy that this current CTA staff was strong enough to fight for the money for this project and not turn their backs on it like the last staff and say they would just let it run until it falls down.
BJ
I was riding the Blue Line Forest Park Branch today when I noticed the Elevated Connection between the Douglas and Congress line's being renovated
Renovated how? New track? New structure members? Is there a diversion around the work?
For those of you not familure with Chicago and our Blue Line, The Forest Park and Douglas-Cermak L Lines come out the of the Subway going West in the middle of the Eisenhower Expressway.
Both Branch stop at two stations in the middle of the Expressway, UIC-Halsted and Racine, and then they seperate. The Forest Park Line continues to run down the middle of the expressway whereas the Douglas-Cermak Branch Elevates between the two Forest Park Tracks, which are still at ground level, turns and crosses over the Expressway as it then runs South for the first two stations at Polk and 18th St. and then turns West again about 1.5 miles South of the Forest Park line.
They have started the renovation by replacing the Elevated Structure while keeping the old structure up and then tearing it down when the new structure is in place. It takes allot longer then just completely tearing down all the structure, but the CTA doesn't want to disturb ridership like it did with the closure of the Green Line when it was renovated for two years.
The old supports are in the middle of the structure, whereas the new supports are on the outside of the structure similar to the Loop Elevated in Downtown Chicago.
I hope I answered your question as clearly as possible. It is hard to explain without a picture or acually riding the line.
When the work is taking place, they proabaly just shut down one track on the Forest Park Line. Proabaly during overnight hours and week-ends when the Douglas-Cermak Branch doesn't run.
BJ
That explains it. Thanks.
You mentioned they didn't want to repeat closing a whole line like with the Green Line (I assume that was South Side L). Did CTA lose substantial ridership because of that? Do they regret they closed it down?
Back in the olden days, it was common for upgrading and rebuilding to take place with minimal service disruption. Examples are the Broadway-Brooklyn el and Chicago's Jackson Park branch of the Green line. Station mezzanines were added to the latter, which necessitated raising the trackwork using jackscrews to provide additional clearance.
Will the Douglas be rebuilt with Steel supports or the horribe and dreaded Concrete supports? Let me know m curious.
The Douglas-Cermak really needs the work. When I rode it about a month ago, there were sections where the speed limit is 6 mph and I don't think it went above 25 mph all the way from the junction.
The connector is critical, because it's the only rail connection between what's now the Blue Line (West-Northwest, old Milwaukee Av L) and the rest of the system. On a CERA trip in May of 1998, we rode the connector, which was a passenger route decades ago (Jim K. or another of the Chicago gurus can provide info).
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
To answer a couple of Questions:
The Green Line travels from it's terminal in West Suburban (affluent) Oak Park at Harlem & Lake to downtown Chicago, the Loop. The Portion in Oak Park runs next to Lake Street and in Chicago Over Lake street just like downtown. It then turns South on Wabash and has two branches that terminate on the South Side above and next to 63rd Street.
Yes the CTA deeply regrets that it shut down the Green Line for it's 2 year renovation.
The first day it re-opened for public ridership, news crews rode the trains to file reports on it and only found one lady on board. It took just about as long as the renovation took for ridership to reach the levels it was at before it closed. The Green Line Lake Street Portion that is, the East 63rd and 63/Ashland branches only had about 90 percent of the old ridership at the time that study was done.
Today I believe that the Lake Street Portion has over 100 percent of what it used to and I'm not sure about the 63rd branches.
You guys also had a question about concrete supports. The only time the CTA uses conrete supports to hold up steele L tracks was on the Cermak-Douglas Branch of the Blue Line because of it's poor condition. Instead of renovating it some years ago, which it badly needed back then also, the put concrete around the steele supports.
The CTA Board that gave up on the Douglas Branch and picked the Green Line to renovat, which was in much better shape, no longer exsists. The new board under President Frank Kruesi is the best the CTA ever had and is really turning it around.
BJ
This was on the CTA web page Fare cards work.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
08/13/99
The Chicago Transit Authority announced that ridership continues to
increase on its bus and rail network. In the first six months of 1999,
the CTA has gained 7.5 million rides more than in the same period last
year.
Ridership on the CTA rail and bus network increased by 3.6% over June
1998. For the month of June 1999, 36.9 million rides were taken on the
CTA system compared to 35.7 million rides taken in June 1998.
More and more customers are using the CTA's new electronic passes which
offer flexibility at affordable prices. Through the end of June 1999,
overall pass and permit ridership increased sytemwide 79.9%, from 29.5
million rides in 1998 to 53.0 million rides in 1999. The greatest
increase was in the use of CTA's new 7-Day Pass, which accounted for
7.6% of May 1999's fares. The second largest number of pass uses came
from the full-fare 30-Day pass, which accounted for 4.7% of the month's
fares.
Joe M -
Do you really think that the CTA knows how many people it carries? Ask them to explain their system to you and then watch the bus drivers do the counting.
I don't deny the new 7-day and 30-day passes are nice. I enjoy the flexibility they give vs. the old "weekly" and "monthly" passes.
On my ride in on the #156 LaSalle bus in the morning I see a good many riders still using cash. I really don't know what the CTA can do to encourage those riders to start using the Transitcard.
Jim K.
Chicago
> On my ride in on the #156 LaSalle bus in the morning I see a good
> many riders still using cash. I really don't know what the CTA
> can do to encourage those riders to start using the Transitcard.
One thing that the CTA can do is make Transit cards vending machines more available. Right now, if you don't regularly visit CTA 'L' stations, the only way to get a Transit card is to buy a "prepaid" card ($11 worth of fares for $10) at a grocery store or currency exchange, with no easy way to add more to it ($1.50 fare or $1.80 with transfer doesn't divide evenly into $11.00).
It really amazes me that there aren't Transit card vending machines in the main Metra rail stations downtown.
-- Ed Sachs
"It really amazes me that there aren't Transit card vending machines in the main Metra rail stations downtown."
While I agree that there should be more locations off the L system where Transit Cards could be purchased, there is some basis for not putting TC Machines in the Metra stations. Most (or at least a majority) of the Metra passengers are on monthly tickets, and when you buy your monthly pass, you can pay $36 more and get a CTA/Pace "PlusBus" pass, which is good for unlimited rides on CTA and Pace during weekdays from 6:00 to 9:00am and 3:30 to 7pm. This pass is either a sticker attached to the monthly Metra ticket, if you don't use the L system, or a one-month unlimited Transit Card if you do use the L.
It's good ridership is going up somewhere other than NYC. It would be nice if someone else wanted transit.
It would also be nice if Illinois congressmen were not working to cut NYC's share of federal transit money, especially since we don't get any highway money and our total transportation $ is well below our share of population, tax payments, etc.
Our Congressional reps aren't working to cut NYC's share; that's just a side effect of working to increase Illinois' share. (^:
Seriously, though, Governor Ryan here pushed a $12 billion dollar infrastructure package, Build Illinois, through the Legislature. It includes $1 billion for CTA to renovate the Cermak (Douglas) Branch of the Blue Line, lengthen platforms on the Brown Line to accomodate 8-car trains, buy new buses, and make other capital improvements. An article on Build Illinois and the CTA is at:
http://www.yourcta.com/news/ctaandpress.wu?action=displayarticledetail&articleid=125315
The problem is that the CTA (and other agencies receiving Build Illinois money) needs matching funds from the feds, since the CTA plan capital improvement plan requires over $4 billion.
(CTA needs federal matching money)
Whereas the Second Avenue subway presumably does not? I wish there were not federal transport money. I'm sure we'd spend more if we had all our $ to ourselves.
Of course the 2d Avenue Subway needs federal money. The problem is that "transportation" capital funds are automatically seen by many non-urban citizens, and the elected officials who represent them, as "highway" capital funds, and think that any appropriation for capital improvements to transit is an unwarranted diversion. Mind you, this attitude has been reduced -- the passage of ISTEA and NEXTEA demonstrate that at least some of the politicians, if not the citizens, have finally grapsed the situation. But the attitude that money for urban transit is "wasted" is still not uncommon.
As to breaking the nation down into little fiefdoms where every county, township, and municipality pays for its own improvements and nobody else's:
1) How do you propose regional projects like rail systems be financed? Each town pays for the portion operating through its territory? What incentive does a town have to maintain a highway or a railway that is predominantly used to pass through town rather than to stop there? And why should a small village that happens to have a rail line passing through it be stuck paying enormous sums of money (at least relative to its size) to maintain a facility used by the entire region?
2) With modern mobility, there are large numbers of people from other cities and other states using the roads and transit of every other city and state. Each locality paying for its own ignores that a significant portion of the service is used by, and the resulting expenses are attributable to, non-residents. Having all funding as local would effectively subsidize tourist and business-traveler use of local infrastructure, and the more out-of-towners use the system, the more that local-only funding is a subsidy. Unless all expenses were financed from the farebox, which I think we all realize is not feasible, at least with regard to capital expenditures.
EVERY state and local official thinks that their state is paying more into the federal Treasury, and their town is paying more into the state treasury, than they are getting back. The rurals think the cities get too much of the money, and the city people think that rural dwellers are getting a disproportionate benefit. By definition, some of them must be wrong. (^:
Well, if you look at total dollars going to and from Washington, NY and IL both LOSE - big time. The south, with states like Texas, tends to come out way ahead. Keep this in mind when southern congressmen are ranting about DC taking their money. I'm betting my state (CO) comes out pretty far ahead too.
However, the folks from the south, etc., do look at it a different way. Most federal transportation dollars "come from" the gas tax, which is "supposed to be" spent on highways, at least predominantly. Some portion of this is not spent on transportation, and right now could be considered part of the surplus. This drives the concrete representatives in congress (see Shuster, Bud) banannas. They want to build highways with that money, whether they are needed or not (See I-99 in Pa for a highway to nowhere. Also see Shusters contributers list...)
Anyways, folks in the south and west do a ridiculous amount of driving, and I *think* there is a flow of gas tax money out of those states. You and me might think that is only fair, since those states still do better than even overall, but do not try to tell Phil Gramm that.
Back to transit. It used to be that for a highway project, Uncle Sam paid 90% and the state/local only had to come up with 10%. Meanwhile, transit was a lot worse. I *think* it improved to 80/20 under ISTEA. An improvement, but still a big bias towards highways. One of the results of all those rural states having two senators. Does anyone know if this improved with NEXTEA? Also, states have been generally given more flexibility in recent years over spending Federal Transport dollars on transit, amtrak, etc. But this Concrete brains keep trying to roll this back...
And back to the subway: Larry, I would not argue with you about the eneral trend in federal transit spending. But I think uncle sam cannot weasle out of paying for the second ave. subway. And, a question: Do you know of a website with good stats on what federal dollars go where?
The Northeast-Midwest Coalition website has an analysis of federal spending. NY State residents pay more in per capita (because they are richer), but get an average amount out. New, we're the eighth worst off.
But guess what -- most of the money going to New York State is for -- guess what -- MEDICAID. On public works, public purchasing, etc. we get ripped. If we had Illinois' or Masssachusetts Medicaid program, we'd have their mass transit improvment programs three times over.
The problem with local taxes for transportation is the competition from social services. The federal program at least sets up a formula for distributing funds for programs of national interest.
John in IL is in good shape because the Gov. is supporting funding from the state level
Often times projects can be federaly funded but the local units have trouble comming up with the match. Cops and hungry Kids get the cash.
The monthly pass system works for daily users. However, many Metra riders use the service maybe once or twice a week, and for them, 10 ride tickets are the rule. It would be nice if they could buy CTA Transit cards at the Metra stations for their bus connections in Chicago.
In Chicago, many more people use the busses than the 'L's, and many people who ride the busses on a regular or semi-regular (once or twice a week) basis would have to go out of their way to get to a Transit card machine in an 'L' station. Also, many visitors use the Metra and Amtrak trains.
-- Ed Sachs
I assume almost everyone here is in favor of extending the N line to LaGuardia airport. But it seems to me that the TA could do better right now.
Today, you get your choice of three bus connections -- at 74th St (Q 33 from Queens Line, #7), at 111th St (Q48 from #7), and at Astoria Blvd/Manhattan (M60 from N).
For the most part, these buses run every 15 minutes at best -- not a reliable frequency when you are trying to catch a train. They also make local stops along the way, slowing the trip further. The M60 gets hung up by traffic on the Triboro, while the Q33 mush cross a number of east-west arterials with signal priority. To catch the Q48 from Manhattan, you have to go way out of your way.
If the TA wanted to, however, it could run a bus from 31st St and Ditmars, the terminal of the N line, to meet every train -- every 6 to 10 minutes -- with no stops until the airport. If the bus waited for the train to arrive and passengers to make their way down, you'd be sure of a connection. The streets north of Astoria Blvd are lightly traveled relative to their size. Stoplights which turn green when signaled by the bus could be installed. It could still take 45 minutes to get to LGA from Midtown, but that's a half hour faster than today.
Would the bus attract enough riders to cover its cost? It might eventually, and properly promoted it would establish the route in the minds of the riding public.
There is a shuttle bus from the A at JFK. Why not one from the N at LGA?
There was one, called the "QT" and ran by Queens Transit using their old fishbowls, but I don't know why that ceased.
That sounds like a good idea.
If nothing can be done to the N train, then that would be great. Another alternative would be to create a Limited Stop version of the Q19A which runs from Queensboro Plaza. It would loop LaGuardia Airport instead of terminating at 82nd Street and Astoria Boulevard.
Without retrofitting some buses to contain luggage carriers, it won't work. You have to make it easy for people to carry their luggage as well.
--Mark
(Luggage carrier required).
The "buses" could actually be those smaller vehicles used by rental car companies and hotels, since they would only be carrying passengers from Ditmars to the airport. The bigger ones carry 15 to 20 people. I'd be the TA could attract 5 to 20 airport-bound riders off every N if they really worked at it. Maybe more.
The Q33 stinks. A co-worker mentioned that he tried it once, arrived at 74th and Roosevelt one hour before liftoff, and missed his flight.
I will be a better choice. Where are you MTA?
N Broadway LOCAL
An Airlink bus to LGA from Ditmars is not such a bad idea. If it is well thought out, and all the variables factored in, it could work. The MTA wouldn't need full size buses, a low floor short WB Gillig or Flxible could handle the passenger carrying chores. The fact is, people who use the NYC airports need a faster way to get there. Until then, most of them will go to Newark Airport.
My girlfreind and some of my other freinds got together and bought me the 1998 NJT Limited Edition Lionel set. I can't open it, mostly because I haven't the space for it; my big question is, why the heck does the set come with freight cars? (ballast cars, but still)
-Hank
I guess to fuel a childs imagination. Just like the old Lionel train sets.
Bill Newkirk
Who knows? Just remember, it is Lionel, not a model. Now if they'd just do subway cars - after all, they do have a third rail :o)
Subway cars in American Flyer S gauge would be a real treat.
I just used one of the new Metrocard vending machines. They're great! I can even put monthly rides on my reduced-fare metrocard. Plus, you can use your credit card. Unfortunatly, I think it means the end of the token clerk. Shame. The old railroad way of doing things is over.
As far as the Second Avenue subway is concerned, I heard it's only going to be built to 63rd Street. I vomitted. The TA doesn't want to spend a dime.
The token clerk is and was officially called a Railroad Clerk (maybe Station Agent now, but never token clerk), it makes sense since the token is OBSOLETE. The only reason tokens are still issued is because of some idiots who are allergic to change and the TA has to wait for them to die. Now, the MVM will not eliminate clerks, instead it will eliminate the need for them to handle money. They will help give you directions, watch the station and help people with the machines. Now, assuming that the clerks were to be eliminated, why would that be a shame? I can understand if you feel bad for those that may lose their jobs, but is that the reason or do you just have a bad case of nostalgia?
BTW, where did you use the MVM?
People seem to forget that the 2nd Ave. line is to have only 2 tracks (the parts half-completed have room for only 2 tracks). That's another example of MTA's cutting corners.
TO ALL INTERESTED SUBTALKERS:
I am coordinating a tour of the Bush Terminal area next month. Please RSVP me at the above e-mail address if you plan to attend. Below are the particulars so you will time to arrange for the day.
The Date: Saturday, September 11, 1999
The Time: 12:30 p.m. (will depart on trip at 1:00 p.m.)
The Meeting Place: Corner of 39th street & 3rd Ave. (East side of 3rd Ave. across from Costco warehouse)
Brief Discription of Tour: We will start at the point where the South Brooklyn Railway trackage intersects with the subway system, then following it's ROW to the shared interchange yard with New York Cross Harbor Railroad. From there the trip will involve combined walking/driving along 1st and 2nd Avenues where there is much old street-railroad trackage and some equipment (mostly NYCH). We will cover all streets between 38th Street to 55th Street in the Sunset Park/Bay Ridge sections.
Parking: There is ample street parking, particularly along 1st and 2nd Aves. Also, you may be able to use the Costco parking lot at 39th and 2nd if you are not comfortable with street parking.
Food: There is only one eatery that I know of along our touring route. The shop has deli meats as well as hotdogs and hamburgers. However, it closes at 3 p.m. (the area is strictly industrial) so you might want to bring a bagged lunch and/or additional eats as you see fit.
NOTE: I will have handouts of informative documents on our tour for those who attend.
Hope to see you there! (Pray for bright blue-sky weather!)
Doug aka BMTman
I won't be able to go - it's Rosh Hashanah that weekend.
--Mark
Same here, Jewish New Year.
Plus don't have a car so can't take part in the driving part.
Me either - same conflict. Now if it was Sunday ...
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Not only this, but the LIRR end of an ERa tour is on Succos. Don't railfans respect holidays?
We wanted to get this trip in while the weather is still good and while the cars are still around (a dicey proposition, seeing as the new bilevels seem to be on the property in significant numbers.) The planned date of July 31 had to be moved in order to allow time to give the trip the exposure it needed to do well financially. September 25 is after the major Jewish holidays of Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur; regrettably, it seems to have landed on Succos. It should be noted that two NYD-ERA board members, including yours truly, are Jewish. I apologize on the Division's behalf to anyone who wanted to attend but can't because of the holiday.
David Ross
Director
New York Division
Electric Railroaders' Association
[Not only this, but the LIRR end of an ERa tour is on Succos. Don't railfans respect holidays?]
Sorry, I can't make it. All the AVA slots are filled. I'll be on an N train all day.
OOOPs! Sorry folks. I was going by my "Flip-A-Week" and didn't notice Rosh Hassanah falls on that day.
NOTE: Saturday, September 18 is the new day. All other info remains the same.
Doug aka BMTman
Sounds much better - if I'm not laid up by knee surgery I'll be there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Should be good to go now! Thanks for changing the date.
--Mark
We all know that construction of the Second Avenue subway was halted in 1975 because of the City's fiscal crisis.
Could someone remind me WHEN in 1975 construction was halted?
Did construction stop on the 63rd St tunnel as well (and then get restarted later) or did it continue through the City's fiscal crisis?
--Mark
In mid-December, 1974, Mayor Beame announced that construction on the Second Avenue Subway would be deferred. Those sections that were well along (the 3 we all know and love -- E. 110th-E. 120th Streets, E. 99th-E. 106th Streets, and under the Manhattan Bridge) were to be completed, but no more contracts were to be let. A fourth section, from E. 2nd to E. 9th Street, was also underway, but apparently only utility relocation work was done.
The 63rd Street and Archer Avenue Line projects continued, though the Queens Bypass (which would have made the 63rd Street Line truly useful from the get-go) and the Southeast Queens Line (to Springfield Boulevard, which would have made Archer Avenue VERY useful) were deferred.
David
[We all know that construction of the Second Avenue subway was halted in 1975 because of the City's fiscal crisis.
Could someone remind me WHEN in 1975 construction was halted?
Did construction stop on the 63rd St tunnel as well (and then get restarted later) or did it continue through the City's fiscal crisis?
--Mark]
Thank you!
--Mark
Hi Folks, Just exactly what division is this 2nd ave line going to be? I just want to know. Thanks.
It's going to be B Division, if the Broadway line is going to be hooked up to it.
I thought about a year ago they should build it to B Division specs, run A Division cars through it and set the tunnel walls so they could use the extra space for fiber optic and other data transmission lines, since the MTA will need the money if it's going to cost $1 billion a mile to build.
It was going to be a B Divison line, because the R-44/46 cars were meant to be used on the line once it was completed.
However, I've read that it was to be connected to one of the IRT lines in the Bronx, so obviously there'd be a construction problem unless they built it on another level.
Any IRT line the 2nd Ave. would be converted to would become (wholly or partly) to a B Division Line.
The original plans for the 2nd Ave line had it emerging after 138th St and running to E 180th St via the NYW&B ROW. It would continue to Dyre Ave. The platforms on the Dyre Ave portion of the line would be "restored" to their former sizes (they were "increased" in width because of the narrower IRT cars running on the line). The E 180th STt junction as well as the approach of the current 2/5 lines from E 177th St would be rebuilt to remove the sharp curves and provide a cross-platform transfer between 2nd Ave and White Plains Road trains. In addition, another connection to the IRT Pelham Line would be constructed at Whitlock Ave, and the line from there to Pelham Bay Park would have its platforms shaved back as well. The IRT Pelham Line would terminate at Hints Point Avenue.
--Mark
The 1929 BofT plan would not have involved the NYW&B, which was still running at the time.
The late '40s BofT plan only included the Pelham Bay Line and a terminal at 149th & 3rd.
FWIW, I believe the Dyre Avenue Line was considered IND (though shown on maps as IRT, and operated by IRT equipment) I believe for crewing and statistical purposes. I imagine, but do not know for sure, that this changed when it was through routed.
It would make a lot of sense to route the 2nd Ave. line that way today, though. The City only bought the part north of 174th St. What survives of the rest?
It does have IND (and BMT) style signal identification, Y1, above the number, where the IRT style is the number over the letter without the track number.
The 1929 BofT plan would not have involved the NYW&B, which was still running at the time.
You are correct; I was referring to the 1968 "program for action". I guess I should not have used the word "original".
FWIW, I believe the Dyre Avenue Line was considered IND (though shown on maps as IRT, and operated by IRT equipment) I believe for crewing and statistical purposes. I imagine, but do not know for sure, that this changed when it was through routed.
This is correct. IRT equipment was staffed with IND personnel and the line was treated as another line of the IND division.
--Mark
"
The original plans for the 2nd Ave line had it emerging after 138th St and running to E 180th St via the NYW&B ROW. It
would continue to Dyre Ave. The platforms on the Dyre Ave portion of the line would be "restored" to their former sizes (they
were "increased" in width because of the narrower IRT cars running on the line). The E 180th STt junction as well as the
approach of the current 2/5 lines from E 177th St would be rebuilt to remove the sharp curves and provide a cross-platform
transfer between 2nd Ave and White Plains Road trains. In addition, another connection to the IRT Pelham Line would be
constructed at Whitlock Ave, and the line from there to Pelham Bay Park would have its platforms shaved back as well. The
IRT Pelham Line would terminate at Hints Point Avenue."
Very Beautiful Idea --Mark
N BROADWAY LOCAL
IRT Trains can run on BMT/IND track, but not the other way around. Therefore, I suggest special trains for the IRT to be made whereby the doors slide out. Besides, BMT/IND trains don't belong in the bronx!
What do you think?
[ IRT Trains can run on BMT/IND track, but not the other way around.
Therefore, I suggest special trains for the IRT to be made whereby the
doors slide out. Besides, BMT/IND trains don't belong in the bronx! ]
Well, currently that's not exactly true, because the tripcocks are different sides. Not a huge problem to overcome, though.
I dunno what you mean about "doors coming out", though. Some kind of bridge that pops out near the doorways? Sounds like a maintenance nightmare to me.
And, what do you mean BMT/IND trains have no business in the Bronx. IND trains have been there for a long time...
I guess he wants those nasty D trains off the Concourse.
Or, more specifically, the R-68s. I wouldn't mind seeing the R-32s back on the D.
If the second Ave. Subway is to be built (and I'm not convinced that it will), it will most likely be B division. The basis of my belief is that there is already a connection between the 63rd St line and the 2nd Ave line. I saw the actual connections back around 1983. Therefore, the most likely scenario would be B division cars and supervision. However, never underestimate the federal government's capacity to throw the proverbial monkey wrench into the works like insisting that LRVs be used.
Second Avenue Line was always planned for B Division. After Contracts 1 and 2 (the original subway and Brooklyn extension to Atlantic Avenue) the City built no more IRT dimension tunnels or structures.
It would be expensive and disruptive, but if the Contract 1 and 2 lines could be rebuilt to B Division standards, IRT capacity could be tremendously increased--that 1 foot plus in width makes a big difference.
[ It would be expensive and disruptive, but if the Contract 1 and 2 lines could be rebuilt to B Division standards, IRT capacity could be
tremendously increased--that 1 foot plus in width makes a big
difference. ]
It certainly makes a big difference in capacity per linear foot of train. (the extra 90' of train on most B division lines doesn't hurt either).
But I don't think it would help things much at all. The only thing that I think will make much of a difference is to increase the trains per hour, or lower dwell time.
Take these rough figures: linear feet per doorway: 51'A-17, 60'B-15, 75'B-18.75. cubic feet per doorway: 51'A-144.5, 60'B-150, 75'B-187.5
I don't know passenger loading capacity on these cars, but passengers per door is probably the best metric of loading effeciency. In that regard, I would say that the current IRT fleet is probably the most effecient in terms of how quickly you cna get people on and off. I couldn't imagine what it would look like at Grand Central if there were Hippos running on the Lex. I think that increasing the TPH is a much better way to spend money. Get this CBTC system up and running, get the fleet and the line equipped, re-engage the field shunting, and run 45TPH on the Lex line, and you can move a lot of people with much better conditions. And this could probably be done with less money, and a minimal interruption of service. Rebuilding to accomodate 10' cars would leave us using three tracks for months at a time, a prospect that's pretty unbearable.
IRT's aren't as heavy, so they don't were the tracks down as much. Maybe they can have dual service on second Avenue - one IRT, another BMT.
But width wouldn't be the only problem. You'd also have to deal with the turning radiuses designed for 51 foot IRT cars, especially the 5 at 149th St., the South Ferry inner loop, and the curves on the 7 between Hunter's Point and Queens Plaza. That would require not only widening the tunnel, but cutting back the curves to at least handle 60 foot cars, so they could be some inerchange of equipment between the two divisions.
The A division standard is something they want to phase out in the far long run. The ultimate plan is to cut all the unconvertible (original non dual contracts IRT) nlines back to a Manhattan only service for getting around the business areas. The plans would involve looping the Lexington/Jerome line into the Broadway/7th Av., and everything else would be converted or replaced with new lines. But all of that will probably never happen.
Hi Folks, Does any one know where or when these things are coming? Will they have the double storm doors like the R110As? Will they also resemble the R110As at all? Will they at least be FASTER then the current trains? AHEM. I hope they prove to be a success. Regards.
The first R-142's will be here for testing in late October/early November of this year. They will not go into full revenue service (perhaps some test revenue service), until at least six months of testing, so hopefully by next summer we will see more of them. Once testing is completed, about 40 cars will be arriving each month.
The new cars will look like the R142's on the outside (see the updated pic on the bombardier website http://transportation.bombardier.com ). On the inside, there will be bench seating, not "R/46,R/68" seating like the R110A. This means 8 less seats, but lets face it....with the amount of people packed in to the trains at rush hour, and no second avenue subway...the standing room is needed. I know, I don't like it either....but 8 seats with a city of 8 million people really isn't that much.
Will they be faster? Let's hope!! But be warned, they will be streamlined well enough to provide a smooth ride, no more rocking...so it may feel slower when its actually going at a good speed. I sure hope these cars are a success. If Boston's red line 01800 series has been a success (also built by bombardier, but similar to the upcoming R143), the I think the R142 can be a success too. Remember, this isn't a prototype...it's the real thing. Plus, the whole reaosn they are late is because the MTA wouldn't accept them in May because of many problems with them, not just the derailment. After shelling out big bucks ($2.5 million each car), NY wants these cars up to par....and who can blame them for that. -Nick
They'll be fast - maximum designed speed is 62 mph. However, I'm not so sure that we'll see that speed due to restrictions of track speeds lately...
Meanwhile, our beloved Redbirds continue to soldier along...
The R-142 cars won't be faster than the current equipment, but with electronically-controlled AC propulsion, they should be able to hold their speed better on up-grades.
Re Nick's post: The cost isn't $2.5 million per car; it's more in the $1.7 million neighborhood, still a nice piece of change.
David
Does anyone on the list, know if there is any information, on the open trollies, that ran through the park, to the amusement park, named Woodside, here in Philly? Thanks, in advance.
Is this the same as the Fairmount Park trolley?
There is at least one good book on the subject, which I've seen from time to time on eBay. Search on "Fairmount".
If it is the Fairmount Park trolley, the book is The Fairmount Park Trolley: A Unique Philadelphia Experimentby Harold E. Cox. There's a copy listed as available from the Phoenix Book Store for $15 plus $5 shipping - a reasonable price, in my opinion. Check out the Advanced Book Exchange. Also, BC Books has a copy for $22 plus $3 shipping - a bit more pricey but not totally out of line. Check out Bibliofind. Many times bookstores are listed with both services so finding the same item from the same place on both services - occasionally at different prices - is not unusual. In either case you contact the individual dealer directly. Lots of good stuff out there!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yes, this is the Fairmount Park Trolley, which connected 44th & Parkside with 33rd & Dauphin via Woodside Park. The former trolley track reservation on the side of the Strawberry Mansion Bridge is now being covered with a boardwalk of sorts, with recreations of the catenary poles to come soon.
I have a copy of the Cox book on the trolley and would recommend it highly.
MANY THANKS to, Paul Matus, Anon_e_mouse, Bobw, for coming through with such good information. I have been thinking about this, for at least 40 years, since I lived at 51st and Parkside, during the last few years that they ran, what a pleasure ride, on a hot summer night, for 8 cents. Thanks again, MUST buy the book, Jim B
Anyone catch the "Study" mentioned in today's Metro section which says that the planned capital improvements (2nd Ave, LIRR > GCT) shouldn't actually be built? Did you think it was totally full of s__t, or just partially? They completely merge operating, maintenance, and capital budgets in their mind, and come up with results that don't reflect at all on the actualy budgetary condition.
Skip S. Topp
The study says what I've heard from MTA sources at least a year ago, though specific deficit levels, etc., are arguable. The caution the report expresses is not BS, but the question is: what do we want to do about it?
Put another way, would you have not built the Dual Contracts lines during the time of 'teens and '20s optimism, because of the possibility of the Great Depression occurring? Considering the economic disaster of the '30s (which didn't really end until World War II) should we have not spent the money on all the subway construction up until then?
As to merging "operating, maintenance and capital budgets in their mind" this is necessary in order to get an accurate long-term picture of financial condition when you're talking major projects.
Unfortunately, the operating and capital budgets are merged in New York State. The State, City and MTA have borrowed up to the limit without building anything, violating the state constitution, by running up the debt to cover operations, maintenance (or reconstruction needed due to lack of maintenance), and routine replacement -- AGAIN!
The only way new things can be built, and the existing system can be replaced, is by adding more tax or fare money to pay for future improvements AND pay off the debt. Pataki has absolutely crippled the MTA with debt. If you don't like it, you should have voted for Golisano.
I forgot to post this yesterday, but on my way in, as I was pulling west from Jamaica, I saw a line of about 10 classic LIRR diesels (I don't remember if there were cab units, but there were GP38-2's and MP15AC's) moving around near Jay Interlocking. A few days ago, I passed Morris Park, and saw all these locos lined up there, awaiting their final fate. I guess these locos I saw were either on their way off the property, or being moved somewhere out of the way.
Does anyone have definitive info on their fate? The rumours I've heard were:
GP38-2's, MP15AC's: What NYA doesn't want will go to EMD for rebuild and sale.
Power Packs: They'll be stripped of their HEP equipment, and then be sold -- hopefully to museums!
Coaches: Sold as a lot to Northern Central Railway, who is reselling them at $15-20k, (higher price for 2900 series, with onboard diesel generators).
Is the LIRRHS (The museum in geenport or riverhead) able to acquire adequate representation of this fleet?
Four GP38-2's that I know of are being repainted into a Hunter green livery for the NY&A. One that has received the new paint is #250 and one of her sisters; didn't get the number. NY&A will be leasing the Geeps.
Two of the other GP38-2's that went to NY&A are 268 and 269.
270 and 271 also.
I have added a total of 103 pictures to TransiTALK over the past 2 days in addition to the plentiful amount that was already there!
Check them out
http://geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/7650
Trevor
aka MTA Boy
Trevor, you might want to check some of your links to other sites - they don't all work. I didn't check them all by a long shot. The photos on the main page looked nice though.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm leaving soon to take my 3yr old son to the Court St museum. I haven't been there in a while. Any advice???
The SARGE-my homepage
Having had 3-year-old children not so long ago, only that you be prepared to spend a lot less time there than you might want to.
My daughters have always liked trains and trolleys, but I always had to plan excursions appropriately to allow for feeding, boredom, short attention span, etc.
Combining such trips with a reward usually works well. A couple of years ago I combined a trip on the Media Line with a stop at the Springfield Mall.
For the 2nd time in my life riding the subways I had an operator take the wrong lineup. Said operator was in lala land if you ask me since I caught the mistake and he took the lineup from a standstill not a speed.
Got on a R40slant for headend ride from Kings Hwy. We get through Church Ave and I don't know what the operator selected on the punch board and there was no D in site. The approach signal was red and we stopped at it and you could see the home signal for the interlocking just before you get to Prospect Park. Our (Track 3) home signal was Red/Red and the D's (Track 1) was Red/Red. The approach cleared yellow and we crawled as the Home turned Yellow/Yellow. This guy is slow crawling towards the diverging and we are not stopping. I'm yelling that it is diverging (not that I normaly interfere with the operation of TA equipment but I'm late and will be later getting to where I have to be).
Needless to say we cross the points going to Track 2 the oncoming express track. I also have to note, the operator doesn't stop until the whole car is off the thrid rail and we loose the A/C. But that is pure NYCTA Fate.
Now our errant operator wants to raise Dekalb tower. No answer for at least 5 minutes. (Is it getting hotter in here?). Our Conductor is saying there will be a delay please be patient. Everyone in the head car knows somthings up.
So Dekalb is not answering, we go for Control.
(Yes it is getting a bit warm in here, I point out to a complaining couple they can move back two cars for A/C)
Control finaly answers and we spend more time with them not understanding what has happened. I mean listening to both sides of the attempted conversation and no one is understanding each other. Basicly the T/O should have said he blew it and took the wrong line up. But he was already practicing CYA and trying to blame signal problems I think. Anyway I knew what would happen and it did.
Proceed into Prospect Park, Discharge, and return to Brighton in service making all local stops (since he held up the whole line both ways, payback?).
The masses cross over at Prospect Park (Hey shuttle track has 3rd rail without covers and full tracks btw). Next come two D's (great I need to get to LIC). What fun....
The offical annoucnement, this train is be sent back to Brighton Beach, please cross over (Good way to stand up for your Operator Mr. Conductor koodos!!)
So who's fault??
T/O I guess, he did "take" the lineup, but how did that interlocking get set for that move?? Is there a Button for a reverse move at Church?? Another gold star for Master Towers?? Hmmm..
OK, you have me totally confused. If you were going north, then you were on A-4 track. The local would have to be A-2 track. If the train was crossed from A-4 to A-3 (southbound express) it was not due to an errant punch by the train operator. Since the tower operator had to reverse traffic on the main line, he did not do it on his own but would have done so under orders. What I suspect was that one of 3 things had happened.
1. There was a major gap in southbound service and the train was turned to fill the gap.
2. There was a delay northbound and the train was turned southbound to reduce congestion.
3. The train had mechanical difficulty OR was reported to be involved in a safety related incident. It would then be turned and returned to Coney Island yd.
In any event, it sounds like more than a simple wrong-route.
If the train had been involved in an incident, it would have been removed from service immediatly. If it was a true wrong route of this magnitude, the train would have been removed from service and the T/O would have been checked for fitness for duty and possibly benn taken to Jay St for testing.
I have seen 12-9 incidents or reported door incidents where no one is sure which train is involved. In such cases, trains are removed for investigation in such a way as to minimize disruption. I agree that if this had been a 'wrong route' the T/O, the TW/O and the Disp. all would have been peeing in the cup. That was my point, however, that this did not sound like a 'wrong-route'. Actually, in my list of 3 scerarios, I listed them from most likely to least likely. Since I am on vacation this week and next, I can't find out what actually happened but if anyone does, I'd appreciate hearing about it.
Mind you I wasn't disagreeing with you, just trying to add to your infos and scenarios. Another thing to consider is when service gets bad southbound on the Brighton line, they try to turn Q's, it's the same principal on the #6 line. When service goes in the toilet (12-9, stalled train, signal trouble, whatever) Parkchester is closed down. The part-time service takes the hit.
Over there on the Brighton line, most of the crews return to Brighton Beach, while half the D crews clear uptown.
I didn't hear anything unusual on the radio today pertaining to the Brighton line.
The only other thing I can add, it happened about 10:20am the lead motor number was 4243 (that would be the Manhattan bound). I would assume that it was the Brighton 10:10.
I'm telling you the track numbers he gave over the radio. We went from the Manhattan bound express to the Coney Island bound Express (which at that point is the D/Q combined, this interlocking splits service and the CI Local track is from the Franklin ave shuttle).
I might have got the track numbers wrong but we did have a yellow/yellow that has ALWAYS been Green/Green. The TO did stop after crossing the points and say over the radio he took the wrong lineup.
After the long wait/attempted communications. We pulled into Prospect Park on the wrong track. And that Q train returned to Brighton switching to Local. There was no train supervison present the whole time.
Lou, I'm only stating certain things that I know to be true.
First-Universally, B division tracks are numbered Even=Northbound, Odd=Southbound. The local track is always lower than the express track so Northbound local=X-2 and express=X-4 while Southbound local=X-1 while southbound express=X-3.
Second-Universally, a Train operator can not punch and receive a line-up that will take his/her train against the flow of traffic. In addition to clearing the signals and switches, the tower operator must reverse the flow of traffic on that track section. This is never done without supervisory approval - either locally or by phone.
As I stated, there are many reasons why what you described, might have happened. If this was a wrong line-up, then we had a potential collission situation. Therefore, if it is as you have summized, then I'm quite sure that the tower operator, the Train Dispatcher at Prospect Park and the Line Superintendent would have alreeady been suspended.
I think it was a "potential collission situation". Now that I read your explanation of track numbering (I will also look at the signals) I think that is what lead to the confusion on the radio. The TO was stating wrong track numbers over the radio to control. We did move Manhattan Express to ConeyIs Express, proof in point I had to "up and over" to continue to Manhattan at Prospect Park >G<.
Thank you for your insight Steve.
Yesterday I was at RTO labor reations defending my union
brothers. I have the official version of what happened. It
seems the Superintendent was the imputeous to this. The Motorman was a fool to have actually accepted this lineup, but se la vie.
Story goes that the Tower man was told by the
Superintendent that there was a north bound Q coming up
with a broken picture window. It was to be turned south.
that way it could return to Coney island for repair. The
Tower man simply gave the routing to the wrong train. The
other had already been discharged of pasengers. Unfortunately the Tower man had been told it was that particular train. The Superintendent never told him otherwise. He really should have made certain.
As of yesterday the incident was still under investigation and all concerned were out of service. Thankfully only to restricted duty.
Again the motor..TRAin Operator should have questioned this!
Thanks for the update. At lest everyone who took part in the discussion was partially correct. Now the $64,000 question. Tony B. recently re-shuffled the line superintendents for District 4. I wonder which Supt. was responsible. When you say all concerned were taken out of service, T/O ? tw/o? Disp. ?
Since I was at labor relations I can only say with certainty about the hourly employees. The Ghouls behnd the desks weren't saying much else.
Funny thing. The N line Supt was recently booted because a new train operator who had taken a wrong lineup took a second wrong lineup in as many days with of all people, a school car TSS on board critiquing the T/O so it wouldn't happen again. How come school car supervisors aren't held accountable for probationary employees while they are in service. If an XXL person happens to be in yard C and splits three switches, why does the yard quality assurance TSS lose his job when he is on vacation when the obvious target by Jay Street should be the local supervision AND the superintendant in charge of School Car. Just because the T/O has break in papers signed and is "deemed" to be qualified, Nat Ford is the one who puts out bulletins assigning scapegoats in RTO for charges that didn't have to be. Going to the door berthing systems mentioned by Todd Glickman's post # 48521 is easier for the TA because it is an improvment to safety resulting in new modifications to car equipment, therefore funded by the Capital Improvement Program, where school car can't be improved because it is funded by the farebox and turnstiles and the TA will never go back to the old school of vigorous training and time in the yard before road qualifications can begin. The one year of time in the yards served as a probationary period for which the employee can be evaluated for attitude, safety and attendance; therefore fewer accidents happened on the road than they did in the yards. One more example of how the NYCTA puts money over safety.
Amen, brother.
Zanet got the boot? Couldn't have happened to an nicer guy! Where did he go?
Zanet went to Superintendant of Night Operations of District.....rats they renumbered the B Division districts and I can't remember which is which, but he covers the B/D/N lines.
That's definetely a DEMOTION! Couldn't have happened to a nicer guy.
Believe it or not, I think it's an easier job....you pretty much watch over the G.O.s and such. You are not beholden to one line, you oversee your district as a whole...if anyone is taking a wrong lineup, lets take it to the LINE Super. I do have to agree with you, he's not one of my favorites.
Pardon my ignorance, but what does "g.o." stand for?
Skip S. Topp
G.O. stands for General Order. It explains the operation required for other than normal operation on a transit line. For example: when a track is taken out of service for trackwork or signal work then a G.O. is issued to explain the operation to the train operators, towerman and other personnel. The G.O. is printed on pink paper stock.
Say what you will about the particular gentleman, he's still taking the rap for a failure of upper management. The failure was the system and not with the man. I don't know him and if he's a P%^&K, fine but wouldn't it be better to see him get his just desserts for something he actually deserves to get it for? Lately it seems that senior management is raising its sites but the game is the same...
I have to agree with you on this point. There is only so much you can do as a supervisor or superintendent. You shouldn't have to take the rap for something that is really out of your hands.
My opinion still stands though....the superintendent in question is very petty and spiteful.
He's the one who didn't want the eastern div. slant 40's to join the rest during the Willy B closing, isn't he? This should have happened before this last pick.
If disciplinary procedures at the MTA is anything like the NYPD, they will be on restricted duty for years & Years!!!!
If in fact it was the Night Superintendent that was formerly on the N line, he is really having a bad go of it. A bunch of wrong line ups in a key location and now this,...unbelievable.
It sounded like an AM incident based on Lou's time line. It seems that district 4 has had a very serious run of bad luck in the past 6 months. Applied handbrakes, switch run-throughs, wrong routes, and the rest. Perhaps they have to re-assess the supervision/management style in that district. OR perhaps Mr. Transit Professional is right that the system is to blame for poor training.
It seems to me that the LIRR has it's share of problems as well. I've been on trains that open off the platform. I was even on an MU out of Babylon that was routed to the Central Branch (more than 10 years ago). Do the other properties such as PATH, NJT, SIRR and MNRR have similar human problems?
I remember reading somewhere that "Every disaster in public transportation is due, at least in part, to human error." Perhaps it is the nature of the beast but as a 'professional', I feel that perhaps we need to be more vigalent in the way we conduct our day to day business. It seems that lately we've been training more for Managing Divesity, Sexual Harassment Prevention and ADA Compliance then for accomplishing our real mission.
Well, there is a very good friend at NJT who's an engineer. One day we were talking in the cab as we headed east on the corridor, doing about 100 MPH. As we passed the Elizabeth station he asked:"Were we supposed to stop there"?
Well, there is a very good friend at NJT who's an engineer. One day we were talking in the cab as we headed east on the corridor, doing about 100 MPH. As we passed the Elizabeth station he asked:"Were we supposed to stop there"?
Heh, heh...
A few years back I saw a Toronto subway driver (they aren't motormen here) who was so engrossed in conversation that he drove half-way through a station without slowing down. By the time he realized his mistake ("Oh...") and brought his train to a stop, the lead car was well beyond the end of the platform. ("Oops.") Excluding direction changes, this is the only time I've seen an in-service train drive in reverse.
The catch? The driver was talking to his supervisor. I don't know if anyone was fired for this little incident, but both driver and supervisor looked very embarassed.
CH
Thanks Mr. Professional.
I wonder if the tower not answering on the radio was when they *discovered* their mistake or real radio problems that are the norm.
Since Steve's explanation makes sense, my question would have to be:
When was the first time you were on a train which took a wrong lineup?
I can only say what I saw and what the T/O said and that we sat until he raised someone on the radio.
The first time was way back when I was a kid. R ended up going to Broad St (before the 75 footers).
In any case there's always a "Cancel" button on the lineup box. But I've rode the line alot in the first car and most T/Os overshoot the box. If that happens the get out and then punch it. Maybe he was in a hurry.
Can someone tell me how I can obtain an official NYCTA subway vest?
Get a job with TA that could possibly put on the track and they will be more than happy to give you one.
Hey! How's things in Chicago land? Send me something cool from the windy city and I'll send you a safety vest.
Thanks Mr. Profressional, how about an Official Chicago
CTA vest for a NTYCTA one?
.
On the same thread these Hi-Vi (High Visibility) vests MUST be worn at
all times when on or near the running lines and these rules are enforced at all times, especially to staff in depots here in London.
Does the same apply on NYCTA operations?? and do other American transit sysyems (Boston/Chicago etc) also require staff to wear them..??
Regards
Rob
:^)
London
(note I have 1 London Underground vest to exchange) lol
The NYC Transit Authority requires it also. The Railroads do not, oddly enough.
Hey proud, e mail me.
I was looking up the answer for the last runs of the R1/9's and came accross this tidbit. I know Wayne and some others will find it of interest.
On Feb 12,1973 two empty trains collided on the southbound express track at Church Av Station(IND Smith St Line). R1/9 train 1236(S),1105,1128,1183,1324,1077,1188,1254,1416,1155(N) hit R40 train (S) 4306-7,4181-0,4317-6,4264-5,4421-0(N) just north of the station and actually pushed it into the station. R-40 4420 was cut up on the spot. Car 1236 was damaged and was to be scrapped as 754,except for 4421 the others were back in service in a short time.
Above courtesy of the ERA NYD Bulletin.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ouch! I wonder how fast that prewar train was moving.
Now, had that been a train of BMT standards, only one car would have gotten hurt.
I think they managed to limp what was left of #4420 back to CI Yard - the number's been Red Box with an "X" since Book #2, as I remember seeing it there in the yard from the "F" line. WHAT A MASH! His whole "A" end was smashed back past the #1 door. Now, I don't have info on #4421. Did they keep her for parts? Did they renumber her? (i.e. she now #4248?) Did they use her for a nose donor? If she's floating around out there, maybe they can give her nose to #4259 or #4427.
Those R-6s were pretty tough birds. Not as tough as a BMT Standard, but tough. I remember July 17, 1970, when R-6-3 #986 got overly amorous for the anticlimber of R10 #3062, on the curve west of Hoyt-Schermerhorn. The R-6 was tough, but the R10 proved tougher. #986 had his front end and crown smashed good and the first fan came dangling down along with the light bulb on the stem by the end door. The cab was mashed flat and Clarence Berry, the T/O got hurt pretty bad. #986 was a real sight on the wreck line up at 207th Street. They swapped numbers with #912 and sent the hulk to scrap in 1971. Now, #3062, she took a wallop, displacing her anticlimber and messing up her sign-box, gates, storm door and cab, but seeing her up at 207th Street after the accident, and considering what hit her, she took it pretty well. I believe they used her as storage for a while before they picked her clean for parts and ultimately scrapped her. I have both their dog tags - 986's is brass, 3062's is pressed aluminum. The guys up at 207 even took the trouble to put 986's tag on the wire brush wheel to shine it up.
Wayne
Sometimes I think the old prewar subway cars could probably take a direct hit by a tank and keep on moving, where the newer subway cars would probably explode if they got hit by a pebble from a slingshot.
Chris: I would be inclined to agree with you except take a look at the damage to the IRT steel R-62's in the Union Square wreck and the BRT wooden Gate cars in the Malbone Street wreck. The similarities are striking.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think a BMT standard could have inflicted some damage to a tank or bulldozer.
A few days ago someone asked about the last runs of the R-1/9's and Wayne referred the question to me. I had to go delve into the archives for this one but here's the best info I have courtesy of the ERA NYD Bulletins.
Dec 1972 Last runs of non-museum and non-renumbered R-1/2's
Aug 20,1973(+/-)Last run of non-museum and non-renumbered R-4/5's
Sept 22,1976 Last run of R1/9s' on IND. CC Bedford Park Blvd to Euclid PM Rush.1057-937-1283-1294-1132-1004-1145-1314.
Early Dec,1976 Last run of an R-1 disguised as a R-9. 1786x576x368
Mar 31,1977 Last run of R-1/9's on a J train 168 St-Jamaica to Broad St AM Rush in "A"Skip-Stop Service.1676-1683-1416-1693-1584-1654-1497-1398x722.
As you can see this train consisted of R7,R7A and R9 and one R4/5 disguised as an R-6(1). I cannot find an individual date for the last run of the R-6's but I believe from personal observation that a few were active until very near the end.
Those of you more familar with the IND who rode it every day may be able to flesh out this report.
Thanks,Larry,RedbirdR33
Mar 31,1977 Last run of R-1/9's on a J train 168 St-Jamaica to Broad St AM Rush in A "Skip-Stop Service. 1676-1683-1416-1693-1584-1654-1497-1398x722.
This was an "unannounced" putin (except to railfans). At 8:01am, the train departed from 168th St / Jamaica and arrived at Broad St at 8:52am. From Broad St, the train ran light through the Montague St tunnel and Sea Beach Line to the scrap line at Coney Island Yard.
(ERA Headlights, July/Sept 1977)
--Mark
You are the man!!!
Any idea of when Shore Line's 1689 made its last run?
Steve: Thanks for the kind words. This was a little easier than I thought. There is a report of a LL train on March 1,1977 leaving 8 Av at 501PM with the following consist;1538-1689-1531-1687-1586-1506-1571-1514. If this wasn't 1689's last run it was very close to it.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[ thought. There is a report of a LL train on March 1,1977 leaving 8 Av
at 501PM with the following
consist;1538-1689-1531-1687-1586-1506-1571-1514. If this wasn't 1689's last run it was very close to it. ]
Hey, that's very nice to know! I probably got my appreciation for subways from the LL line. My parent's owned the Honda shop about 100 feet from the Rockaway Parkaway station (and about 6 feet from the tracks). They had a window and gate which almost formed a loading platform about 3 feet from #1 track there. I used to stand on the platform as the trains went by.
Next week, I'll have to go and see if 1689 still has the LL signage on it, when we're working on rerouting it's power lead.
1689 has IND roller curtains on it now, including former terminal stations which became through stations as the system expanded. If anyone would know for sure, it would be Eddie Sarkauskas.
A few minutes ago, it seems that the MTA yanked the subway schedules again. You click on the schedule, and it appears to come up, but then you are throw into a screen that says new schedules are coming soon.
A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush.
Do you think they could update their map while they're at
it?(It still had the 63rd St. shuttle last time I
checked).
Maybe they will get rid of the D times that come up when you click on the F.
But like all things F, it will take Forever for them to fix it.
Actually, they HAD replaced the D times with the proper F schedule. We had an F schedule for a couple of day, and then it was gone.
If you hit STOP before it fully loads, it seems you can grab the schedule before the MTA pulls it back and throws you into an "under revision" page.
Try disabling JAVA on your browser. That should prevent the automatic switchover.
Hello everybody,
When youv'e got the chance, visit my
homepage at GeoCities.
It doesn't really have any images yet, just links to
pictures here, and I have given link and photo credit.
I hope to keep them only until I can obtain a
scanner(within the next few months) and put my own
pictures up.
I update it daily to make up for my lack of images. E-Mail
me and let me know what you think.
Hi Steve,
Its not a lousy excuse!!! Actually
your website is VERY GOOD.
I just added a transit buff page to MY
homepage at http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/trainbuf
f.html Its just at the initial stage so its not
so good yet.
Thanks for the link. One teeny tiny nitpick: The car interior pix detract from the text, which is also interesting. Other than that, it's a good page. Keep up the good work.
Since we're talking about homepages, visit the MVM list at http://www.crosswinds.net/~mvmworld, it moved from it's older site and I will be adding MVM Profiles soon.
If the 2nd Avenue subway is built, who will it serve? If it terminates (begins) at 125th St. Some Bronx riders might switch. Then where will it go. The Q at 63rd St., the R & N at 60th St., the E & F at 53rd St. and the 7 at 42nd St have no stations near 2nd Ave. The L has a 1st Ave stop and the F has a 2nd Ave stop all the way down. Where will the 2nd Ave subway connect with other lines? In the meantime, the Q, N, R, E, F, and 7 line passengers from Queens needing to go to destinations along the east side will still use the Lex. I'm afraid the people who can transfer from the Bronx will see the same dead end too. Lack of subway service has kept 2nd Ave largely residential. No major businesses to increase demand. Unless people are willing to walk an additonal 2 or 3 blocks, the 2nd Ave line will not draw too many riders from the Lexington Avenue line.
That's why they would have to put in a United Nations stop on the 7, so that Second Ave. uptown riders would have direct access to both the west side of Midtown Manhattan and so riders in both directions could get to to Queens without having to transfer either to the F at Houston St. or to the Broadway line connector and then doubling back at 63rd and Lex.
(The Third Ave. platform on the L extends almost to Second Ave., so a connection could be made there, but the west side of 14th St. isn't that big a destination for people on the Upper East Side)
They should at least make it end at 149th Street (3rd Avenue) and Grand Concourse connecting the 2,4, and 5. Then the #6 at 138th Street (3rd Avenue).
If built as originally planned, with a station at Grand Street, a connection to the F at 2nd Ave, and a connection to the 63rd St tunnel from Queens, many people would use it.
Brooklyn riders traveling to offices on 3rd or Lexington Ave, or the hospitals along the waterfront, would use it to travel to those areas. Queens line riders would use it to get those areas or to Downtown -- it would be faster than crawling all the way crosstown on the E and then Downtown. East Side riders would also use it to go Downtown. Bronx riders would use it to go to the waterfront.
There are probably about 300,000 jobs east of Lex and north of 14th St. Downtown has another 300,000. Most "Downtowns" in the U.S. have around 100,000. Then there is the residential population -- a good 500,000 people on the East Side north of Houston St, and going up.
The real line with marginal utility is the BMT Broadway line, whose four tracks join 12 others within two blocks in Midtown. If only we could move two of those tracks to 2nd Avenue, and two of them to 10th Avenue, it would be great. As it is, there just isn't enough capacity east of 5th Avenue -- and too much from 6th to 8th.
The real line with marginal utility is the BMT Broadway line
The BMT Broadway Line is the best situated line in Manhattan, serving the traffic centers at Canal Street, Union Square, Herald Square and Times Square.
It also has the most convenient connections of any Manhattan mainline, with easy connections to every other Manhattan mainline except lower 8th Avenue, plus all Crosstown subways and the Nassau Loop, Williamsburgh Bridge, and PATH.
Can't beat that with a stick.
"The BMT Broadway Line is the best situated line in Manhattan, serving the traffic centers at Canal Street, Union Square,
Herald Square and Times Square.
It also has the most convenient connections of any Manhattan mainline, with easy connections to every other Manhattan
mainline except lower 8th Avenue, plus all Crosstown subways and the Nassau Loop, Williamsburgh Bridge, and PATH.
Can't beat that with a stick."
Fast ain't everything.
Hahaahhaaahaaahaaa 8th Avenue Express.
N Broadway Local
I have no argument there. The Broadway line is a very functional line for those very reasons. In fact, I've always had a fondness for the Southern Division, although I still consider myself an IND fan. Let's just say that a return of express service, be it the N or Q or whatever, would be icing on the cake.
P. S. My handle could just as easily be Express Addict. With all due respect, I don't take locals unless there is no other option (have to get off at a local stop or no express service).
Like you, steve, I too enjoy the express run on the A line. However, since I'm no longer using that service (being A). Therefore, I can only speak of the N line of which I know now.
Everyone knows the N line can't compete with the other lines when it comes to speed and frequent service. But when it comes to how many important places it serves, the other lines are left in the dust.
Two more things. The A (1/9, F) has the straightest route in the city which has a lot to do with it's speed. As for frequent service, depending on where you get on it, you are sure to arrive in your destination at a reasonable time.
Lastly, the A does not have those sharp turns like the N, and, it does not merge with many line. The downside, it doesn't go into the central business district. As a result, many people don't use it as often.
Somewhat away from the subject. One day on my way home (34th Street 6th Avenue station), a reroute northbound A train arrived on the F tracks. Thinking that a Q to 21st Street and Queensbridge was arriving, surprisingly a reroute northbound N train arrived. A lady in her 40's yelled out "WHAT IS GOING ON HERE!". I, and everyone in the train station was also amazed. For the first time in subway history, a N train of slanted 40's was standing by a A train of 38's. I waiting for appropriate announcements until I realize the N was being reroute to 21 Street via the Q line. As for the A line, I was told by the conductor, their was some problems at high Street.
So I got on the N train. To really see which line was faster (A & N), I watch the whole time out the window. There was some kids on faster A train shouted to give me the impression I being beaten. We were. The N train got to the 42nd Street station about a couple second later.
N Broadway Line
via 4th Avenue Express
Astoria
As I've said before, I will always have a soft spot for the N. My very first subway ride was on an N of shiny new R-32s on July 21, 1965. To me, it's still the Broadway Express because of all the times I would take it from Union Square to 34th St. or Times Square after bailing from the Canarsie and those unmarked BMT standards. I used to say, "I want to ride on a BMT train with a letter up front", which meant an N of R-27/30s or R-32s with "N-57th Street" on the bulkhead. The express dash was fun, even if we skipped only two stops.
The sad fact of the BMT Broadway line today is that it is a shadow of its former self. Think back to the pre-Chrystie 60's and decades before. Names like Brighton,Sea Beach,West End,Fourth Avenue ruled the rails on Broadway,now only two lines with an abysmal local service mock such a great past. The Canal St. (via bridge) station resembles a movie set fitting for a nuclear holocaust. But alas,the Manhattan Bridge south side track structure is slowly being rebuilt. Gee,I thought it was the north side track structures that were destroyed by the D-types!!Although I have just turned 48 years of age,sometime in my future I would like to ride the Manhattan bridge south side tracks again and see express service on Broadway once again. Pardon me! I was just fantasizing again !!
Bill Newkirk
[re usefulness of N/R line]
Another thing to keep in mind is that the N/R is the most "tourist friendly" line in Manhattan. It is convenient to most tourist attractions south of Central Park; there is no worry about taking the wrong train (in this sense the lack of express service is plus); and crowding usually isn't too bad.
If you were to ride the Lexington Av IRT, you would see that there is a need for congestion relief on the East Side.
Here's how it works: The 2nd Av subway will start at 125 and head down to 63rd St(this is the first leg)and connect with the Queensbridge line, they will have a choice of sending it to either 6th Av or Broadway. My guess is Broadway because the express tracks are not currently used for service there. Also the 63rd Street tracks come up behind the Lexington Av & 63rd Street station. The wall there is a false one and there is a complete platform ready to go on both the upper and lower levels. In addition, to go to 6th Av, you must cross a switch at that location. By going straight it goes to Broadway and then at 57th St it comes up straight into the express track. No sense switching it their, let it run express. The less switch crossing the better, it takes up a little time. Maybe someday it would go express down Broadway and then over the Manhattan Bridge.
Anyway, the second segment would run down 2nd Av to lower Manhattan, but who knows if this will ever come to fruition.
Back to the origional point, if you relieve passenger load on Lexington, the people coming from the Bronx on the 4/5/6 will get a faster ride because there is less dwell time at each station.
Don't even suggest putting more trains on Lexington Av, it's saturated now.
Did you know that the #15 bus on 1st and 2nd Avenue is the most crowded bus route in the US? And that the bus runs every 3 minutes almost all day long? And that there are 15-limiteds and 15-locals and they are quite crowded? Many of those people might use the 2nd Avenue Subway. It would probably get every person east of Lexington Avenue on it to avoid the crowding on the Lexington line. The Bronx people would gain from that indirectly.
Also a final suggestion as to where it would go from 2nd Avenue and 125 St. It could go west along 125 St. to Broadway and end there. That would allow a connection from every other line in upper Manhattan.
The big thing to remember is that if the part S of 63rd is built, the connections would bring Queens line riders to East Midtown and Downtown and Brooklyn riders to East Midtown.
The E/F connection to the #6 also helped, it is one of the most crowded changes in the system. A full Broadway-Lafayette connection to the #6 would help also. There is room on the #6 south of GCT.
Room south of GCT? Only on the roof.
I would except that this extension if ever built will actually branch off of the 63rd Street Tunnel. The East Side from Lexington to First Avenue is heavily populated. It would be a welcome relief from trying to nudge oneself in an already overcrowded Eastside IRT subway.
I will also assume that the northern tip of the proposed 125 th St. Station will have appropriations to future extension. Perhaps the piecemeal aspect is more costly in the long run but it will alleviate an area that is in truly overcrowded. Even residential areas need mass transit especially in Manhattan where parking is a luxury.
One could debate that Queens is also in need of another subway line. I fully agree. However if the Federal and State governments are willing to push for an extension in a needed area, then let's take there offer instead of squabling.
Check out my web page. It's not even 1/1,000,000 as good as this one, but it has some good pictures.
http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/subways/index.html
At whih path stations after leaving will i be able to see the work on the light rail
Well, right now, just Pavonia/Newport but you couldn't even tell that's what it was for yet. If you get off at Exchange Place, and walk down Washington St. south to Essex you'll see tracks, wire, and stations.
-Dave
Walk in either direction from Exchange Pl.
Going south(left) will take you to Essex St. Right(north) leads to Harsimus Cove and Newport.
If you walk along the line past Essex St, you will get to Liberty Harbor(Marin Blvd) and JC Medical Center (Jersey Ave). These stations are almost finished and you can get a better idea of the design.
Depends on what phase of the work you want to see. A good example of the earliest stage of the work (i.e. least complete) is to be found in the parking lot just North of Exchange Place. To get to Jersey Avenue, where they have the overhead wires in place, get off at Grove Street and walk a couple of blocks West, then walk South on Jersey Avenue until you see the LRV station. If you walk to the end of Jersey Ave., you will find a foot bridge that leads into Liberty State Park. A more finished station is in the parking lot West of the park. As an alternative, you can get off at Exchange Place or Journal Square and take a bus to Bayonne, where the tracks run North from the Army Terminal. It seems that this project is being built from South to North (except for an extension South of the Army Terminal), so that the further South you go, the more finished it is.
You can also see some work being done if you get off at the Pavonia/Newport Station. Walk north along Washington Blvd., and to your left (west) you can see an elevated section being built. Right now the concrete pillars are in place. The line will ramp up from the surface at Newport Mall and use a trestle to cross several streets to reach the canal next to Hoboken Terminal. It looks like there will be an elevated junction to allow trains to go east to the terminal and west and north to Weehawken. In the next few months the appearance of this structure will become clearer as the deck is added.
Where can reports / maps be obtained showing
which areas of N.Y.C. would be under water
should a seriously powerful hurricane hit ?
Is the City Government REALLY prepared to
deal with something like this ?
Where's the most likely places the subway will be
flooded ? Does NYCT have a plan regarding
restoration of service after extensive flooding ?
We had a long discussion of this a while back, with a legit meteorologist claiming he's more afraid of an earthquake than a direct hit by a hurricane.
Coney Island could be flooded by a category 3+ storm. The trains are elevated, but what about the yard? I'd hate to lose the whole fleet.
The big risk to tunnels is Lower Manhattan, where you have stations near the water. The fear is that the harbor might back up, and water might rush into the Montigue (N/R) and Jorelemon St (4/5) tunnels, along with the Brooklyn Battery tunnel.
Back in 1983 or so, the #6 lime was flooded in the south Bronx. 4 trains were completely under water at Cypress St (?). We pulled them out by diesel as the tunnel was pumped. They were taken to 207st where the controllers were hosed out with fresh water. Most cars were able to take power and operated normally. Same for 16 R-46s caught in a flood at parsons Blvd a few years later. I think the equipment is tougher than you think.
But Steve, those were both fresh water floods. A storm surge
flood event would be pretty salty.
Fresh Water, :) hahhahahha. Raw sewage in the Bronx and run-off through the streets of Queens. I would hardly call that fresh water but the point is well taken. However, if the components are hosed down with sufficient fresh water, the likelihood is that the salt will have caused any lasting damage.
PS 59 Queens and Springfield Gardens High School both flooded last winter.
PS 59 Boiler room filled with water covering half the height of the boilers and shorting out electricity. SGHS to a lesser extent. All from storm surge.
Lou,
Those floods would not have been from storm surge. Storm surge is when strong winds "push" sea water onshore. It takes a hurricane to do that, and one that needs to be moving at right angles to the coastline.
What you had at PS 59 was probably a flash flood, caused by too much rain falling in too short a period of time. Different cause; different effect. Storm surges' devistation is as much from the force of the "push" of the water as from the water itself.
Although I live about 1 1/2 miles from Great South Bay & the Atlantic Ocean I've been told that a storm surge from a Level 4 storm would put my entire neighborhood under 20-30 feet of water. Despite this, my insurance company has qualms about selling flood insurance. Hmmmmmmm, I guess the odds are still in their favor. Then I remember the flood scenes from "Deep Impact".
Steve,
You can buy National Flood Insurance through FEMA (US Gov't). Watch The Weather Channel -- they have ads for it every now and then. Although the odds are very slight that your community will be hit with a hurricane of level 4 or 5, heading from north to south with the eye just to the west of you (all requirements), I'd highly recommend it! It's a small expense to put you at ease-of-mind. (I know your community well -- my cousins used to live a few blocks from you!)
Todd: You may believe that the odds of a hurricane are slight, but the insurance industry does not agree. After Andrew, they hiked my insurance, and I had difficulty finding alternatives. Everyone said that all the insurance companies were cutting back in "coastal counties." But I'm several miles inland sitting on top of the terminal morraine.
That's interesting! The odds of a cat 4 or 5 storm did not change after Andrew. It's just that the insurance industry had some nasty bills to pay! Part of the big problem is that people in hurricane-prone areas (Gulf coast, Fla coast, Carolina coast) don't heed advice to invest a little money to strengthen construction of their homes. That minor investment will heed big rewards when & if the Big One hits. Also, people rebuild in places that are prone to disater!
I think that Central American storm may have also changed thinking about the odds. The damage was from rain, not waves. That could happen here.
Andrew also exposed a LOT of evidence of builders cheating on the codes...
Course, that would never happen in NY!
Todd, isnt it more WHEN the big one hits, not if...and if I'm not mistaken, Long Island is statistically overdue for a hurricane ala 1938.
I don't know about you, but I think local government preparation has been more along the lines of "It isn't very likely so why waste money on it"
Under Rudy, the City is much better prepared for disasters than for routine operations. Its almost too bad we can't have one to show that there is something were good at.
I had to give this pile of census data to the Office of Emergency Managmenet, the best funded and most aggressive agency in the city. They know how many cars are in every tract by the ocean, and the roads used to get out, and the number of people without cars, and the subway s and buses available to carry them. They even gave me a box of computer disks for my trouble, which is good because City Planning can't afford its own.
Barry, I agree 100% that preparation is key. One day, a 'big one' will hit. We just don't know where or when, though the Jersey shore is the most likely. (Why? Because water temperatures are warmer there, which is critical to sustaining a strong hurricane. Once a storm hits water less than 80 F, it starts to weaken rapidly.)
But the odds of the 'big one' hitting in just the right place and heading in just the right direction to cause a disaster at Coney Island Yards are pretty darn small. That's what the original question on the thread was.
Then Todd, I have a question for you--how big a hurricane would it take in the right spot, and how close would it actually have to come to the right spot, to cause that disaster at CI yard?
Well, here's a "minimum worst case" scenario.
A Category 3 storm, which has top winds 111-130 mph. It would have to be moving in a general south to north direction, and the eye pass a few miles to the west of Coney Island (the surge is most pronounced on the forward/right side of the eye). Hellllooooo - Manhattan!
That would result in a possible storm surge of 9-12 feet. Remember, the storm surge is ocean water "pushed" onshore. It has nothing to do with rainfall, which adds to the problem.
Here is a link to the National Weather Service's Storm Surge Page and the Saffir-Simpson Scale.
Remember, its not more likely just because it has not happened in a while...
When was the hurricane that punched a new hole in the barrier island out by center moriches? (sorry if I spelled that wrong - phonetic spellings of LI names are quite risky :)
If your insurance company has qualms about selling you flood insurance, they must think its very possible!!! Insurance companies aren't in business to make payments!!The SARGE-my homepage
Back when the R68A was new there was a terrible flood of water from a broken main up at 135th Street, which flooded 125th Street station and swamped the brand new "D" train sitting there. I believe the train was out of action for at least a year. I guess it depends on the equipment.
Wayne
Those 16 cars eventually needed to have the floors replaced. The work was done by Kawasaki in 1996. I don't know why they were out of service for so long prior to that unless someone tried to powert hem up pre-maturely
You must have missed the safety announcement made at the beginning
of every trip:
....Since a portion of this interval will take us under water,
you should be aware that your seat cushions may be used for
floatation........Today's in-ride movie will be The Taking
of Pelham 1-2-3....headsets are a quarter, dime nickel or
whatever you can spare, even a penny.......
You forgot about the en route food service. One of the gentlemen who feed the homeless and you can all share the one 2-week old sandwich he has in his bag along with 50 - 60 cassette tapes.
BTW: Does anyone ever fall for one of those clowns?
What a silly question. This is New York - people fall for it every day. Why do you think those guys are always on the trains?
Both the West side IRT around 72nd St. and the Hillside Ave. IND are prone to flooding, and usually get hit hard during severe thunderstorms.
I do remember when the city got hit by a nor'easter in mid-December 1992 the entire system was affected. IIRC, the power plant that supplies the 90V electricity to the signal system was flooded and the entire network crashed. I was stuck on an N train at Pacific St. for almost an hour before I finally walked over to Laffayete Ave to get the IND, which seemed to be the only line in Brooklyn running. It took me 2 hours to get home, because there was no J service at Eastern Pkwy either. IIRC, that storm actually submerged parts of the Rockaway line and it was out for days.
I'm the legit meteorologist :-) previously quoted. Indeed, this thread is deja vu all over again.
As I stated back then, the probability of a hurricane (1) strong enough (2) in the right position and (3) heading in the right direction to cause a storm surge large enough to affect the subway is quite remote. I won't go into the "probability of rare events" here, but you probably have a better chance of winning The Big One from the lottery. In any event, the only places that would be at risk are within a few hundred yards of the ocean... Coney Island and the Rockaways come to mind.
As Larry pointed out, my personal opinion is that the city's infrastructure is more at risk from a major earthquake (I include all utiliites and structures) since a seismic event of equal probability to a major hurricane in the right place/direction of movement would cause a lot more damage that would last a lot longer. And yes, there is a fault in the viscinity that can cause an earthquake big enough to matter. Will it in our lifetime... or in the next few generations? Don't know.... nobody does.
Neither is very likely - but yes - contingency plans are a must.
tg for cbs news, Syosset!
Well, the most obvious part of the subway system to get done in by a serious hurricane would no doubt be the IND's Rockaway Branch (A and C trains). The Line transveres the Jamacia Bay section of Queens at points that are only a few feet above sea level. This would be the first part of the system to get swamped. The line could technically continue service in the Far Rockaway/Rockaway Park areas as the line is elevated once it reaches the Rockaway Peninsula.
And any of the tube areas of the subway would also be affected (M/N/R/A/C/F and all IRT trains between Brooklyn and Manhattan).
The Canarsie L line which runs at grade between Rockaway Parkway and E. 105th Street could also be shut down should there be extensive street-level flooding.
Doug aka BMTman
I think the words "potential" disaster preclude conditions that shut down service temporarily, or even for a few months, like the Willie B. I don't think the blizzard of '96 was a disaster, even though the system was shut down for two or three days.
I think of a permanet loss of a good chunk of the system that takes years and billions to recover from -- the way LA lost highway capacity in the Earthquake. The only potential disaster I see is a storm surge backing up the Coney Island Creek and destroying the Coney Island Shop and everything in it, or the surge going over the streets in Lower Manhattan and catastrophically flooding the tunnels.
And if the Manhattan Bridge were to collapse on top of all that, OI VAY!!!
I defer to Todd here, but I imagine it would be pretty tough to get a storm surge that actually went up the east river...
(Hard to get a storm surge up the East River).
A bunch of meteorological scare mongers published a study that said NYC is at particular risk of a big storm surge, since the coast curves from N/S to E/W and the Lower Bay would funnel the water up. The theory is that water from hundreds of miles of Ocean would be squeezed into the Upper Harbor raising it several feet.
Hmm. Maybe they are right - try looking at a map and figuring out why the Bay of Fundy (NE of Maine) gets 50' tides. Its a complicated business.
Let me reiterate that a hurricane storm surge will affect areas within a few hundred yards of the coast. Flooding that moves in to tunnel areas is from heavy rain, and you don't need a hurricane to do that.
Last year in Boston, we had 7 inches of rain in a half day (it was on June 13, 1998 - my birthday :-), and the Green Line was flooded and out-of-service for days; the entire signal system had to be replaced in a large section as well.
If you want something to worry about: Global warming may cause the level of the oceans to rise several feet. Could make hurricanes that much more interesting.
Its farther out on a limb scientifically, but some argue that global warming may make hurricanes more frequent/powerful. (Sort of a believable argument at first glance, but not proven at all).
I would say, however, that due to general topography, Suffolk and Nassau counties have a lot more to worry about from this stuff than NYC.
If you want something to worry about: Global warming may cause the level of the oceans to rise several feet
If you really want something to worry about, in 1994 a Manhattan sized asteroid passed within 65,000 miles of earth. Anyone see the movie:
DEEP IMPACT
Yeah, and I heard there's going to be a sequel, "Deep Impacted Wisdom Tooth". :-)
Doug aka BMTman
Rim shot!!
I had two of those myself. The oral surgeon who did the honors said they were bears.
The chances of an asteroid affecting NY are a lot less than the chances of sea level rise affecting it. On the other hand, an asteroid would ruin everyone's day...
Of course, if an asteroid were to miss the White House by a tad, you could say, close but no cigar.
RIM SHOT!!
And if it did hit the Executive Mansion, you'd hear Mr. Bill's ghost murmuring, "I don't recall...I don't remember specifically..."
DOUBLE RIM SHOT!!
I'd rather not get into a global warming debate here. We have "Wx-Talk" for that (really!). Just suffice it to say that the chances of global warming adding "many feet" to the level of the ocean is a bit slimmer than the 2nd ave subway being built in our lifetimes.
(BTW, in our meteorological community, there is no unanimous opinion. The "dire predictions" you hear about in the media are mostly from researchers who need funding to keep their work going. Potential disasters are sexy, and get the $$. In reality, there are some pretty good people who theorize that even a slight amount of warming will cause more cloudiness & precipitation, which will in turn cool the earth (and cause better growing seasons too!). This is known as the "self-correcting" theory. I like it myself.
I'm waiting for my 2nd ave train to come down the tracks rather the Circle Line inaugurating cross-town service on 42nd Street.
[I'm waiting for my 2nd ave train to come down the tracks rather the
Circle Line inaugurating cross-town service on 42nd Street]
Forget global warming, you've hit upon a terrific idea - dig up 42nd Street, build a Cross-Manhattan Canal, and institute regular ferry service!
Then they'd have to change the name from the Circle Line to the Straight Line, wouldn't they?
We're really on a rim shot (drum) roll today, aren't we?
[We're really on a rim shot (drum) roll today, aren't we?]
Better a rim _shot_ than a rim _job_ :-)
Actually, Peter, I can't take credit for that line. Way-back-when, when Johnny Carson did The Tonight Show from NYC (in the 70's I'll guess), he did one of his classic "How ??? Is It?" jokes:
Carson: "Ed, it was soooo wet in New York yesterday..."
McMahon: "How wet was it Johnny?"
Carson: "It was soooo wet, the Circle Line instituted cross-town service along 42nd Street."
Ba Da Boom.
The whole global warming thing got a lot of play during the hottest July on record this year. Much less play in January 1994, the second coldest on record. Anyone remember that one. Brrrrr.
That big freeze, which also had lots of snow (but not as much as 96), followed the last real summer I remember -- 1993. So here's to one hell of a winter. A bad winter lets us subway riders have a laugh at the expense of the cakeaters in the autos for a change.
The thing is, if you look at global average temperatures, they ARE getting hotter. In what appears to be a dramatic fashion. However, proving that this is caused by people emitting CO2 is difficult to impossible.
On the other hand, if we wait until it is obvious that we are causing global climate change, and it happens, then it will be too late and the planet may be significantly different.
Todd is right that there is not unanimous agreement among those in climatology that global warming is real. But most scientists agree that we are having a "discernable impact" on the climate. This may or may not actually heat things up - but it will change the climate somehow. Sort of a crapshoot! Since in the US we have a pretty favorable climate for, say, growing crops, it seems pretty alarming to me.
There are still a small number of scientists out there who say that CFCs don't harm the ozone layer. They may not get any grants, but if they are tenured, they might not care. What they do get is a tremendous amount of media attention, which I wonder if they crave. The media wants to present both sides of the story, even if, as in the case of CFCs, the "other side" is .003 percent of atmospheric scientists. So watching the news, one gets the idea that there is a much more fundamental debate about CFCs than there really is in the scientific community.
Global climate change is a lot harder topic. You cannot prove it anymore than you can prove evolution. There is a lot of discussion of the details of evolution in science, but the basics of it are really hammered down. Similarly, there is a huge amount of scientific work trying to predict what effect CO2 emissions will have on climate, but the basic idea that we are changing the climate, at least a little, is well accepted. Not as well accepted as evolution, but getting there.
So, we can take solace in the arguments, and figure its not for real, and take a crapshoot on future climate. Or we can try to maybe err on the side of caution...
Global climate change does have a big effect. Unfortunately, a lot of it happens by itself. It was just 2000 years ago that the Sahara was a breadbasket, not a desert. It was just 300 years ago that you could walk across the Hudson in the Winter.
I do my part -- I take the subway and I don't use AC. But, it is possible that our contribution to the climate will be overwhelmed by something else.
But if you take the subway, you DO use A/C! Unless you always ride the eleventh car of the 7 (hope it gets to the scrapper soon!) and nothing else. Personally, I can't live without A/C (well, I can, but I wouldn't like it).
Yes. But it looks like our actions might be changing things much faster than they naturally change.
I try not to say "warming things up." Its real hard to say if things will warm up. But something has to change when we put all that CO2 up there.
Global climate change (note I didn't say warming or cooling) can't be measured by looking at one season or in one city. Remember, if we have a broiler in NYC, it may be a freezer somewhere else. You have to look at the entire Earth over decades and even centuries.
The media blaming global warming for a heat wave in the eastern U.S. over a period of a few weeks is like blaming subway rats for slowing down the trains. (See, you knew I'd get back on topic!)
Must have been after Hurricane Agnes in 1972. One New York area paper - it might have been the Herald News - proclaimed 1972 as a "leak year".
Any body have a number of Work Cars former subway car passenger? I need the number so i can put on my page. Here is the Ex subway car passenger, RD323, RD326, RD333, RD337, RD337 & RD359 also OR & IR723, 720. Like IR719 ex#7444 & OR719 ex#7337. Just post it on Subtalk. Thank You
Peace Out
Meaney
I've been trying to put that together myself. You missed some rider cars that I know of. RD343-Deicer car. RD356. IR/OR715. IR/OR722. RD361. RD335 (R15).
I took my 3 yr old son to the Transit Museum on
Court Street today, my 1st time back in a
while. Although its hard taking a toddler to
any museum I made the best of it. (At his
age he doesn't know the difference between antique
trains and the ones he came on-he just wanted to sit
on the 2 bus driver seats and kept on dragging me
upstairs to them)
Observations:It must
mean your getting old when you can go to a museum
with displays of ancient trains and you can remember
most of them. As a train buff in my teens I would
ride on a BMT Standard on the "LL", a "Q" on the
Myrtle, an SIRT train on the Culver Shuttle
(although I thought they were BMT Standards at the
time, a bunch of R1-9"s and R-10's, then go up to
the Bronx to ride a Low-V on Third Av, All IN ONE
DAY!! It sounded too quiet there!! I
really miss the sounds of the old ones, including
the hiss of the R1-9's doors b-4 opening. The old
ones made alot of great sounds even while idling or
when laid up!! (So did the old LIRR electics)
Although I thought I never been on a Triplex-D
I'm starting to remember them way back in my
childhood. I actually liked the R-10 even though
I hated them then!!! (Like an old girlfriend that
you always fought with but miss after breaking
up.There IS a Low-V at the
museum.(A poster in Subtalk said they took it to
Coney Is. for repairs.Great to see a "Q" car
again-I rode on the Myrtle on the last day of its
operation in '69 and stole borrowed a wicker
seat as a souvineer!! Its still in my basement.
Questions for anyone to answer:
On the BMT Standard at the museum there were
what looked like folding down seats by all the doors
(like jump seats on the 'ol Checkers) that when
folded down blocked half the door. I do not
remember them!! Is it just amnesia on my part or
did most standards not have them? There was an
R-4 with small light fixtures instead of the bare
bulb and a different color scheme. I rode the
R1-9's my whole childhood and never saw a car like
that. Was it only on 1 or a few or is it amnesia
again??Was the motorman's cab & the 2 bus fronts
on the upper level from real equipment or replicas??
What happened to all the books in the gift
shop?? There used to be alot, now there's a few!!!
A placard on the "Q" cars said they were
reconditioned for IRT use for the '39 World's Fair.
I thought they used reconditioned Low-V's for
that. Some post Low-V's at the museum such as
the IRT version of the R-10 had cane/wicker seats
but I don't remember any post Low-V IRT cars with
anything other than hard plastic seats. Amnesia
again?
By the way, We took an Oyster Bay
Bound Bi-Level to Mineola home and in case anyone is
interested. The automatic announcements were 100%
accurate, although there were only 2 stations,
Jamaica and Mineola. Maybe someone from the LIRR
read the long thread!!!!
The
SARGE-my homepage
[4.What happened to all the books in the gift shop?? There used to be alot, now there's a few!!!]
It would appear they moved to Grand Central, the store their.
Mr t__:^)
The R-4 with the different fixtures may have been infact the R-10 "test car" that was dressed up to simulate what the engineers had in mind. Don't quote me on it though.
Also, keep in mind that a train of R1-9 equipment was restored and run on the Brighton Line as the QB "Museum Train" during the mid-70s. I know car #100 was a part of that. Perhaps new fixtures were added back then when the cars were used for that limited rush-hour Brighton service?
Doug aka BMTman
Jeff's probably referring to #484,which had PCC type fixtures with a "bullseye" lens installed in the late '40's. The car also had a different interior paint scheme and tested a P.A. system. The microphone is still visible by the Conductor's steps.
I can remember riding this car in service on the "D" in the late '60's as well as on the "QB" in the early '70's after it was restored.
The R-10 test car was #1575,also at the museum.
You are right, Fitz. I think it was #484 and it was coupled to #100 in the museum. Was that the only car of its kind?? As someone who spent his entire childhood riding R1-9's (I would pass up newer models & wait for them) I NEVER saw any car like it until I saw it at the museum.
The SARGE-my homepage
As Larry says,744 was modified in a similar fashion as 484. Don't recall seeing it in service,though.
Cunningham & De Hart's "History of the NYC Subway System" says that the drop seats were removed from BMT Standards in a 1959 rebuild program but it doesn't say how their use affected door operation.
Drop seats were installed across one leaf of each center door. When they were lowered in place, the door leaf was locked out and would not open. BMT management emphasized passenger seating capacity. I personally don't remember seeing those seats, either, so it's entirely possible that those drop seats could have been removed during rebuilding. Perhaps one of our BMT experts could confirm this.
I never did see R-4 484 nor R-7A 1575 in revenue service. Come to think of it, I don't believe I ever saw R-1 100, either, but then I never paid attention to car numbers or, regrettably, marker lights.
On November 4, 1969 (at about 5:30PM) #1575 led her brood of mixed R-7s and R-9s in a "KK" train, which wound up going express Marcy to Myrtle (due to another "KK" train stalled at Flushing Avenue). Mom, Dad, a new vacuum and I were back in the third car, which was #1708. We terminated at Eastern Parkway. Dad and I noticed that the lead car was different by its flourescent lights (we thought it was a runaway from the "A" line, except it was gun-metal grey), and we went up at Eastern Parkway to investigate it. While we were perusing it, the C/R began to close the doors! We had to block the door to get him to reopen so we could get off. Good thing Dad was close to the door, otherwise we'd have wound up in ENY Yard and Mom and her vacuum would have been left on the platform.
Wayne
You would have thought they'd checked to make sure everyone had gotten off before the conductor closed the doors, especially since those cars didn't have a PA system.
I'm sure a lot of people were taken by surprise when they saw 1575 in a train of sister units. A consensus reaction would be, "What's that R-10 doing in this train?". That poor car stuck out like a sore thumb.
Yes, I'll say she stuck out! In the dark, you could tell by the flourescent light; by day it was the ogee roof. She spent a lot of time either in the lead or bringing up the rear. Seems like every time I saw her, she was the lead motor or the rear guard. I rode her again in 1971 on the "LL", she was up front again. She made R10 music on the Canarsie Line curves. And she is sitting pretty today, a pampered member of the Museum Fleet. Needless to say, she looks simply mahvelous at the age of 53 (I date her from 1946, not 1938 as originally delivered), with her green-striped rattan seats, lovely bracket fans and blue-grey interior paint. Maybe she will meet up with #3184 one day.
I wonder if #3189 is restorable. I know it's a school car at Pitkin Yard.
Wayne
Of course, 1575 would have to admire 3184 and 3189 from a distance, since it can't m. u. with them.
I heard a story from one of the Transit Museum personnel that 1575 as rebuilt was better suited in the middle of a train rather than on one of the ends; however, in most of the photos I've seen, it's positioned on the end of a train. The only photo of 1575 in the middle of a train that I've seen is in Gotham Turnstiles.
Back in 1969 when it was on the LL, I remember 1575 being in about the No. 3 position towards the Eighth Ave. end of the train.
I was still a Saturday regular on the LL in 1969, and even so, I never saw 1575 in revenue service.
My sighting was just a lucky shot, since I wasn't a regular rider -- we were on a class trip to the Museum of Natural History and were taking the LL over to Eighth Ave. when 1575 showed up. I guess it kind of made up for the fact we took the AA up to 81st St. and avoided the real R-10s on the A.
Now you really got me going down memory lane. My mother and I went up to that museum on a Saturday afternoon - October 7, 1967, to be exact - after my Saturday school was out in Brooklyn. BMT standards on the Canarsie to 8th Ave., then an A to 59th St., and finally an AA of venerable R-1/9s to the museum. As was usually the case, no sooner had we gotten off our train and were walking down the platform when an A train of my beloved R-10s thundered past with a deafening roar. By then I had gotten my expresses and locals down pat, along with which tracks each one ran on, and it was right then and there that I asked my mother when we could take an express ride up CPW, seeing as how she had done just that on an D train a few weeks earlier. A month and a half later - November 24 - my wish came true.
We spent a bit more time at the museum that day than we would have liked, and just made it back to Port Authority before our bus left.
#1575 wasn't really a regular on any line; the R-7s and R-9s shuffled around the Eastern Division like the R40Ms and R42s do today. One day #1575 would be on the "LL", next time I'd see it would be on the "KK", or the "QJ", even saw it once on the "M".
Yes, it was not always the first car. It just seemed that way.
Wayne
There is a photo in New York City Subway Cars of 1575 serving as the first car of an E train in 1967. Of course, you know how I feel about E trains in general. Put it this way: if I were waiting for a southbound train at 42nd St. and an E train of R-10s had pulled in, I still wouldn't have taken it, my love for the R-10s notwithstanding. On the other hand, if I needed to go to Queens from 42nd St. and such a train had arrived, you can bet I would have jumped aboard in two seconds flat.
Steve: #100 spent part of her life under a nom de plume,I think it was 381 but I'm not certain. I do know that when she was selected for the transit museum she received her original number back.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I also heard that #100 swapped numbers, but it was with #190. Don't know if it's true.
When I think of 1575 in service, I think of the MTA's deferred maintenance program of the late 60s and early 70s. I rode in on the Canarsie line from First to Eighth Ave. in 1969 on a class trip, and both leaves on the second set of doors on the right side of the car did not even work, but she was still in service. Along with graffiti, broken doors were a sign of the times back then, though 1575's was an extreme condition even for 1969.
Steve,
When the ABs were rebuilt in the late 1950s the drop seat WAS removed. This is the reason we have 2390-91-92 as the museum AB set. Eplanation: When it was decided to establish museum cars in the 1960s, Don Harold wanted an AB set that was still in as close to original shape as possible. Most ABs that were still left were rebuilds, but 2390-91-92 fit the bill. Don told me that 2390-91-92 was certainly not one of the better running sets, nor was it in the best physical condtion, but it had to do.
The other museum AB set was 2774-2899-2775, it being a rebuilt set. It was scheduled to be restored, but an unqualified motorman attempted a yard move with 2390-91-92 and crashed it into the bumper block on the yard lead at 86th st. 2390-91-92 went into the shop for body work, and by the time they were done, a new anti-museum regime was in place at the TA and decided to halt all restorations and clear the yards of unrestored "scrap" cars. So met the demise of 2899 & 2775, 2774 being lucky enough to be saved by Branford.
Mike H
Mike H,
The car that you refer to is AB 2775 and we at Branford are going to attempt to fix her up at some future time. Nothing would please me more than to see this car roll again. Car needs cosmetic work and mechanical work. I don't know how functional she can be. The flood wiped out her traction motors. Steve K, a Branford Colleague, suggests that the car will roll as an unpowered trailer. If that's the case, I guess the SIRT Car will be used to pull 2775. The way would like to do it, and I don't know if it's possible (Jeff would know the feasibility of things), it to make the car into a control trailer. Again, I don't know if that's possible. Have controls at the front of the car and control it and the power car behind you. It kind of sounds like Car G, which lacks motors, but has controls to put the car at the front of the train. Car G had no IRT el car she could hook up with, so BU 1227 had to take on that assignment. Mind you that they were never together in service, but it's a Museum and I think we can bend the rules. If you have lack of functioning equipment, then you'll do what's necessary.
-Stef
Thanks Fitz. At least my memory isn't gone!!! I knew I didn't remember the drop seats. Although I was born in '53 and I might have ridden a pre-'59 Standard or two as a toddler, my real recollections of them were in the late 60's on the 14ST-Canarsie Line and the Franklyn & Culver Shuttles.
The SARGE-my homepage
The original idea was to use only one door leaf on each door during off peak hours. When the drop seats where lowered it automatically cut out the door behind it. I don't think this feature was in use for very long even though the drop seats where retained in the upright position until the so-called rebuilds of the late 1950's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for that info,Larry. Like Jeff,I didn't know they existed until I saw the restored cars.
You mentioned Dehart's and Cunningham's books. You will find in the IRT a photograph of original Contract 1 signal on the Flushing Line which I took and was given photo credit. The BMT book has map sketches by me and the IND book has a photograph of Alcohol car 484 by me.
Give it a look.
Those fold down seats on tha BMT Standards sound very familiar, but it is a hazy familiarity.
Jeff,
I remember the fold-down seats in the Standards very clearly. I know that I never saw one folded down in the 1940's or 1950's. From the length of the section, I determined that the seat would only block one of the doors in each pair of doors. There were six fold-down seats per car, IIRC. If all were folded down, they would block six of the twelve doors (one of each pair). I wondered if folding down the seat would disable the door behind it. I hope so, for it would seem rather unsafe to lose your backrest when the door opened at a station. A seat right next to a fold-down was one of the best seats on the train, for when it was folded-up (all the time), you had a shoulder and headrest to your side. If you were standing, looking out the door window, you would have a beautiful backrest to lean against. I guess that I really goofed but not trying to fold one of those things down in those days
Karl B
[ I guess that I really
goofed but not trying to fold one of those things down in those days ]
Well, thankfully there are still a couple of these iron workhorses left in existance, so you can theoretically find out how it works.
Unfortunately, there are many cars that no longer exist at all. Can't go and play with the seats on a multi-section anymore.
I remember the fold down seats on the similar SIRT cars, but not on the Standards. And, yes, the door behind the seat did not open, so no one ended up falling over backwards onto the platform.
The R-4 that you saw was 484.She and 744 were modified back in 1946 with a Public Address System and Bullseye Lighting.
The R-12's and R-14's were delivered with cane(wicker) seats. The R-15's came in with brown leather type seats. These were all subsequently replaced by two piece gray fibreglass seats.
The Lo-V at the museum is 4902. She is a trailer. The other four Lo-V's are all motors.
The Q's and QX's were Gate Cars modified for the World's Fair. The IRT ordered 50 new cars which became known as the World's Fair-Steinways.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thanks for the info, Larry. Maybe they should hire a subway buff to answer questions there!!!
Sure this may fall in taboo subject area but I'm in need of some railline knowhow. And the MTA and NJT websites have been no use. So here's the skinny.
I will be residing in Manhattan for eight months and commuting to work in Rahway NJ. Since I will be sans car by choice and riding the rails
I need to know the combinations of subway/train that can git me to Rahway and back. And I need to know this info in order to know where to live to best access the train. Is Soho to far south and is Upper West Side to far north? Can I catch a train that uses the Holland Tunnel or am I whistlin' dixie? And I want a 4-6-2 engine on the front of the sucker.
Can someone cast light or direct me to a suitable website?
Thanks
The Holland Tunnel would sure be smokey with a 4-6-2 going through it!!!!
Aside from the obvious troll in your post, New Jersey Transit (http://www.njtransit.state.nj.us/) runs frequent service from Penn Station (33rd & between 7th & 8th) to Rahway on the Northeast Corridor line. You can get the schedules on their web site. You'll probably need to use the subway to get to Penn Station- from the Upper West Side you can use the 1/2/3/A/C trains and from Soho, the 1/2/3/A/C/E trains.
-Dave
Thanks for the help. Interesting site.
Jon
Any engine that NJTransit runs is going to be either diesel or electric, so you can forget the 4-6-2 up front. The Holland Tunnel is car-truck-bus only, as is the Lincoln Tunnel before you ask. All the NY-NJ trains are electric,whether they're NJT or PATH. Anywhere within walking distance of 6th Ave or the WTC will be easy to PATH trains.
But only if it's 6th Ave. bet. 9th St. and 32nd St. No PATH trains North of 32nd Street or South of 9th St. on 6th Ave.
I bought a great video at the transit museum today called "The Vanishing El" and 'New York Rapid Transit". (I'm sure most of you heard of it or seen it but just in case you haven't) They are 2 separate old films in one. The first part "The Vanishing El" is a 1950 guided tour of the 3rd Av El from the start in the Bronx all the way down to South Ferry. It is narrated by an actor playing the el car itself!!! The 2nd part- "NY Rapid Transit" is a public relations film made by the city all about the subways. I don't know the year but they show an R-10 and the narrator calls it a brand new train. They also call Euclid Av a new station. The 3rd part is outtakes from "the Vanishing El". The tape runs 35 minutes. I really recommend it, even though its not cheap-its $39.99
The SARGE-my homepage
They were showing those videos at the museum last fall. One of them had footage of the Myrtle Ave. el along with a brief view of multisectionals in Fresh POnd Yard.
I remember seeing the posts about mixed equipment, but I don't remember if the strange stuff was mostly R32/38 combos or mixed R42 or 40M with 40 slants. Last evening, I got onto a uptown nancy, and had 8 R32's followed by a pair of 42's. Quite the surprising sight..
To top that off, I'm waiting to find a N train now with 6 R68's and 2 R40 slants. Would be about 30' short, but the funny factor would make it worthwhile. I don't remember for sure, but I think that 68's have std H2 couplers and are compatible...
That onehas been to the yard recently. Last week, I had that train for a roundtrip from Stillwell to Ditmars, only it had 4 R42s and 6 R32s. As for your wish train, you won't ever see it - they are not supposed to mix 75' cars with 60' cars. In one direction that train will always put the C/R off the board. Control would take it out of service for constant improper station stops.
[ they are not supposed
to mix 75' cars with 60' cars. In one direction that train will always
put the C/R off the board. ]
Hmm, is that always true? -- as long as the section in front of the Conductor is all one size, it will work out.
For example, If you have a train with 4 R68's on the north, and 4 R32's on the south, going Northbound the T/O stops at the 10 car marker, and the C/R is in the right spot. On the way south, the T/O stops at the 8 car marker, and the C/R should be in the right spot, no?
Of course, there is a problem, because though the C/R is 4 carlengths back from the T/O, there's 5 carlengths behind him (4 75' cars), and not 4. If the station is set up to stop all trains on the north end of the platform, you'd have a couple of doors off the platform. If the stops are centered, though (the same c/r board for 8 and 10 car stops), then it would fit right.
I could have figured something wrong here, though.
There are a few other problems with mixing 60 and 75 foot
equipment. The biggest one that comes to mind is the inability
to release the end door locks from one of the 60 foot cars.
I was just thinking the other day. It seems to me that it would not be too difficult to swap the Queens sections of the Astoria and Flushing lines. Doing so would create the following lines:
new 7: Times Sq to Ditmars Ave, via steinway tube,
new N: Coney Island to Flushing Main St, via Broadway and 60th St tunnel.
This could provide improved queens access because of the following:
(1) Flushing line capacity can increase by virtue of larger equipment.
(2) 60th St tunnel can be used mostly for flushing trains, with R service moved to 63rd St.
(3) Astoria line gets exclusive use of Steinway tubes, for increased service possibly to LGA.
I haven't decided if I think it's a good idea or not, but what do you think?
No, you'd actually lose Flushing capacity because the number of trains that could be run would have to be cut back, since the N shares trackage with the R past Queens Blvd., and with the R and M through the Montague St. tunnel during rush hours.
The 7 has its entire line to itself, and the MTA can run as many trains as it can either put together or that the signal system will allow.
(Lose capacity) Not necessarily. Once 63rd St opens, both Queens local could use that tunnel, removing leaving 60th St free for the Flushing Line. If that's still too many trains for the Montigue St tunnel, more trains could terminate at Whitehall.
I've never heard this one before, and it is an interesting idea. However, I think many people would prefer that the Flushing Line cross 42nd St, through the middle of Midtown, since it is busier, and the Astoria line extend down to Lower Manhattan, especially if it is extended to the airport.
If they both were the same division and no construction was needed, sure, the idea could be studied and possibly tried. However with the two different divisions it would cause too much money and cause much inconvenience, especially since its very easy to change at Queensborough Plaza.
The SARGE-my homepage
This should have been done when both lines were being constructed.
However,the communities which the #7 and Astoria lines travel through would throw a fit. The Flushing line is considered the pride of the MTA because it does not share trackage with other lines,which would cause delays, and it has it own storage/repair yard. The other major problem is the Flushing Line is IRT, and Astoria Line is BMT they aren't compable. It would cost millions of dollars, and years of construction work to make them interchangable. I agree with Sarge just change at Queensborough Plaza.
Keep in mind that at one time, both the Astoria and Flushing lines used IRT-sized equipment. BMT subway trains went only as far as Queensboro Plaza. After joint BMT/IRT operation ended, the Astoria line had its platforms shaved back to accommodate 10-foot-wide subway trains. Both lines were built to the same specifications.
Even so, it's still easier to simply change trains at QP.
Steve 8AVEXP: Right you are. When I was a kid I lived in the Queensbridge Housing Project, and the 4th Ave local would start-end at Queensborough Plaza. It was the only station on the line that was above ground, and because of that developed a strong dislike for it. Today it's called th "R" train and it is completely underground, and it is a local and it takes forever to get anywhere.
[ However with the
two different divisions it would cause too much money and cause much inconvenience ]
It wouldn't cost all that much. All you'd do have to do would be:
a) Shave platforms on Flushing line, extend platforms on Astoria (using temporary extensions to allow an overnight cutover)
b) Change traffic patterns at QBP (I'm not sure what's needed here, but at most it would be some flyovers.
c) Change trip arms on signals, both lines. (Or replace with CBTC system)
I think this stuff could be classified as modifications, and not new construction. I don't have a good idea of cost, but it would probably be much cheaper than any kind of underground construction.
Steve K,
You're forgetting something. Where are you going to store the equipment from the 7 line?
I have an idea of my own. The Flushing should be converted to B Division Specs the entire way from Times Sq to Main St. I don't see why this couldn't be done, unless there becomes a problem modifying the Steinway Tubes.
The 7 is isolated from the rest of the IRT, so this might make some sense. If the Flushing Line is considered to be a part of the B Division, then the line should have been converted years ago.
-Stef
[ unless there becomes a problem modifying
the Steinway Tubes. ... then the line should have been converted years ago. ]
I think that there's your problem. The stienway tubes barely fit the IRT cars that currently run there. I think that it would be cheaper to build a new tunnel(!) than to modify the existing one.
The point about yard access is valid, though, and others have made it also. Astoria trains, if they were IRT, would be able to go to access the other area yards without too much fuss. I.e. Corona via relay at Queensboro, or Coney via 60th St tunnel and broadway. Certainly not nearly as easy as they do now, and getting trains into and out of service would be a problem.
One must keep in mind that every line in the system has direct access to a yard (not including the Times Square Shuttle and the Franklin Avenue Shuttle). If you swapped the lines (not to mention having to at least hack away at all the platforms to accomodate the extra width) this new #7 line would not be near a yard. You should have a yard somewhere on the line.
Also, adding extra elevated flyovers so the 7 and N could cross probably wouldn't be appreciated by the building owners in the area
I have a better idea -- extend the Astoria line through and past the Airport to Flushing, and relieve the Flushing Line that way. A deadhead track could lead to the Corona Yard, so schedulers wouldn't have to worry about having a yard at the other end of the line.
IIRC, this is why the switched the N/R terminals back in 1987, to give the then awful R line access to the Jamaica Yard.
The only major flaw with that idea is that the new Astoria/Steinway line would have no direct access to either a storage or maintenance facility.
A better idea would have been to connect the flushing line from the 33rd st station directly into the 63rd St. line through the Sunnside interlocking. Then you could have both 6th Ave. and Broadway trains serving the Flushing line. The the Steinway tubes could either be connected to the unused LIC branch of the LIRR (electrified and converted to Division A usage) thus providig an alternative subway service from Jamaica, or it could have even been connected to the G line just north of Newtown Creek and the BQ Crosstown line would finally have direct access into Manhattan. The line from Greenpoint Ave. to Hoyt-Schermerhorn would have to be converted to IRT specs.
PC. No one ever bothers to think physical. The only crossovers between the two lines are on the upper level. Trains from Manhattan can get to either terminal, but heading in, they cannot interchange.
Two rules that so many people have a hard time remembering and have such impact. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. And, keep it simple, stupid. Can anyone remember the R-44 as delivered?
As it is now, the N and the 7 do not physically cross each other. The 7 remains always south of the N, albeit just a platform-width away. Attempting to swap terminals would mean the lines would have to cross each other, making for delays. Or else it would require the construction of new flyovers for the lines to cross on. It just isn't practical.
A new station named "Canada Water"opened this morning on the EAST LONDON LINE (orange in colour on tube map).This station will also serve the extended Jubilee Line once that line opens.
Also announced at the opening of the new station is that the
EAST LONDON LINE (which has only 8 stations end to end)will be extended southwards to serve Croydon.
Current stations being
Shoreditch (only served 07:00-10:00 and 15:30-19:00 Monday-Friday and
07:00-15:00 Sunday. No service at other times)
-----
Whitechapel transfer to District/Hammersmith & City line
Shadwell transfer to Docklands light Rail
Wapping
Rotherhithe
Canada Water transfer to Jubilee line
Surrey Quays
then either New Cross or New Cross Gate
.
The extension to this line will see "tube" trains running on "mainline" railways via a connection at New Cross Gate so very little construction is required.
Regards
Rob :^)
Lets compare London with NYC.....
We really are doing terribly as far as public works go.
Hold on Guys - listen to the professionals and dont read the press releases until you see actual trains - the East London line options are there for review only at the moment - and in any case there is no way that "Tube" trains will be compatible with the national network.(more likely that main line trains will run onto the east London section)
Tube trains run over the Mainline sections of track between
Queens Park to Harrow & Wealdstone (Bakerloo) and
Gunnersbury to Richmond (District)
with little problem, trainstops installed and current rail feed
altered no reason why an A60 stock couldn't operate on Southern Metals
as per East London Line extension.
However the prospect of *mainline* stock operating on the route is very interesting. Dare I use the word "CROSSRAIL"? !, this running of mainline trains through undergrouund sections of line sounds familiar!.
Regards
Rob :^)
(as ex Operations Manager Crossrail and North London Railways) I am very familiar with this.! the A60 stock can run on surface lines but they dont have modern crashworthy cabs and the Railway Inspectorate is very loath to allow further extension of Tube and "heavy rail"running . - so "main line" stock with UIC cabs is probably the way forward.!
Interseting point David, by the way I used to work for North London Railways , all be it the "Northampton Line" myself a few years ago!
small world.
A good point to study i guess, would be the collision between a North London Railways class 313 electric unit and a Bakerloo Line tube set at Kensal Green in the 80's.This is the only occurance I can think of an accident involving tube -v- mainline stock, unless you know different.
Regards
Rob :^)
I just took a detour this morning to take a little look at the new GCT northern access, and take a look at a set of 1100's.
Walked around a bit, and finally found a train of them on the lower level. Walking through them was really depressing. Why, you might ask? Because they were beautiful. Clean as a whistle, sparkling paint, no trash, grime or grease inside or out. The interiors are somewhat spartan, with their bench seats instead of contoured buckets, but they were immaculate and comfortable: not a tear, rip, etc.
Contrast this with _ANY_ LIRR vehicle more than 2 years old. Even the M1 and M3's have seats that are tattered and torn, mysterious brown stains on the walls, floors and seats, garbage everywhere in the PM rush, etc. The LIRR's classic diesels have (for years, not just lately) so much black gunk inside that the red carpeted walls look black, the seats' suspension is collapsed on half of them (quite uncomfortable, like sitting on the top of an open barrel), etc.
I bet they run just great, also. Why is MNCR so much better than the LIRR? It's not an incremental difference, like comparing systems from two cities. It's like comparing systems from two planets.
BTW: The master controller looked very familiar, kind of like the preway subway cars. Difference was the reverser key was permanently mounted, and you use a small key to allow it to move from centered position. Little keyhole in the side of the handle, kind of like the keyhole on H&M black cars' Master Controller.
[Why is MNCR so much better than the LIRR? It's not an incremental difference, like comparing systems from two cities. It's like comparing systems from two planets.]
The usual explanation is that the differences are carryovers from the pre-MTA days when the two railroads were under separate ownership. That is *almost* believeable, except for the fact that the MTA's been around for over three decades. One would imagine that enough time has elapsed to make things much the same.
I know, it's all been covered here ad infinitum, and over and over again on top of that.
But it really gets my goat that the LIRR can't even make it's 14 year old M3 cars look as good as MNCR's 36 year old cars. (1100's are '63, right?). Maybe the LIRR should get them when MNCR retires them. I wonder how long it would take the LIRR to run them into the ground.
The cars were just beautiful. Perfect paint, perfect seating, etc. No visible rust. Compare that to LIRR's PT72's which have rust holes big enough to fit large fruit through.
Also realize - the ACMUs were rebuilt a few years back. It's a shame those cars a going, going, soon to be gone. They could probbly get another 10 or 15 years out of them - they are simply in spectacular condition for their age.
Nice cars. They die above 50 or so. Kind of loud traction motors - though you don't really notice it inside - I've been in M-2s that passed them and you clearly hear it from inside *those* trains..
They're my favorite MUs (Still in operation), along with the NJ Arrows (which have the most attractive pantographs of any MU out there).
They also have low platform trap doors like the LIRR stock had. Anyone know when the last low platforms on Metro-North (electric territory) were done away with?
The low level platforms probably went away around the same time the M-1's started arriving 70 or 71 I think
The low level platforms probably went away around the same time the M-1's started arriving 70 or 71 I think
The low level platforms have been gradually done away with first in the electrified zone and then in the diesel zone. On the New Haven Line only Merritt 7 on the Danbury Branch and Derby through Naugatuck on the Waterbury Branch retain them. On the Hudson Line Breakneck Ridge and Manitou are one door low level, and Appalachian Trail on the Harlem are also one door low level.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[The low level platforms have been gradually done away with first in the electrified zone and then in the diesel zone. On the New Haven Line only Merritt 7 on the Danbury Branch and Derby through
Naugatuck on the Waterbury Branch retain them.]
Just a slight correction. Beacon Falls on the Waterbury Branch has a high-level platform. This is definitely *not* due to high demand. The single morning rush hour train boards maybe two or three people at Beacon Falls. Naugatuck has 15 to 20 morning riders, but no high-level platform.
Appalachian trail on the Harlem - I could be mistaken but I recall seeing a high level platform. It's just large enough to open a single door on a train for boarding - not even as long as a short platform.
Dave: What you may have seen was Mount Pleasant Station in the Gate of Heaven Cemetary. It consists of two 20' long high level side platforms.
Larry,RedbirdR33
What time was this? Where was the train destined?
[ What time was this? Where was the train destined? ]
It was a little past 9AM. The train was stationary on the track -- I suppose it was just laid up for the day, since I think they just use them for Rush hours now.
Here's a little story that every time I think about it I wonder. I was riding an 1100 once on my way upstate to visit my father. I had to switch trains at Yonkers since I got on at Marble Hill. As I was getting off, I noticed a brake handle sitting on the floor in the vestibule. I try to be a respectful railfan so I didnt grab it. Looking back now that the 1100's days are numbered I wish I would have grabbed it! But oh well hindsight is 20/20 right?
Steve: Its nice to hear someone appreciate these beauties. I rode a train of ACMU's (1100's) on Hudson Line No 724 Irvington to GCT about two weeks ago. The interiors are spacious and all the windows make for a very pleasant ride especially coming down the Hudson. I share your disdain for the M-1'a and M-3'a which are little more than overgrown R-44's and subway wanna-be's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I know that most modern subway crossings of rivers are constructed as a unit off-site and then sunk into position. How feasible would that be for the construction of a whole subway line, like the 2nd Avenue line? Dig a trench, as with a cut and cover subway, pop in the prefabricated section of tunnel, attach it to the neighboring sections, bury it, and rebuild the street.
Would constructing the subway off-site and then assembling it on-site generate a significant savings of time? Money (factory workers being generally cheaper than construction workers)? Convenience (any given stretch of street is closed for a shorter time than with traditional construction)? Is it even feasible?
I'd say that even if it were feasable, I think it wouldn't help much. The most time consuming aspect in a modern cut and cover operation would probably be utility relocation and digging itself. Once you've got a tranch with everything out of the way, I'd think that covering it up would be easy.
Doesn't seem likely it would be practical.
You still have to relocate all those utilities. And how would you move the sections into place? With river tunnels you float the sections in. Can you imagine navigating a piece of subway through Manhattan streets?
How did they do the chunnel project between England and France? I think they did a deep bore process that works well in firm soil or rock. It does not work as well in soft soil like the project in LA where they had problems.
I think WMATA is deep bore rather than cut an cover.
[How did they do the chunnel project between England and France? I think they did a deep bore process that works well in firm soil or rock. It does not work as well in soft soil like the project in LA where they had problems.]
The Channel Tunnel was bored through a layer of chalk marl. The largest section of the project which could be classed as prefab would be the concrete blocks that line the three tunnels.
DC's WMATA has both cut and cover and tunnel construction. Ride in the back of the last car and look out the window - you can tell how the right of way was built. If it is rectangular, its cut and cover. If it is round, it was tunnelled.
3 weeks ago, at the Marcy Ave Station, I saw the "M" train that has Slants. Does anybody know about this?
The only slant R40's that are normally assigned to any Eastern Division BMT lines are on the L. Perhaps mechanical difficulties on some of the normal cars on the M shuttle forced the transfer of some of those cars. Remember, with no bridge access the J, M and L lines are isolated from the rest of the system.
[ 3 weeks ago, at the Marcy Ave Station, I saw the "M" train that has
Slants. Does anybody know about this? ]
They're all over the Eastern Division -- on the L and J/Z also, I'd guess. I would imagine they've been there since before the bridge closure..
Only the L has these cars assigned to it.
There were car reassignments as a result of the Willie B closure and weekend express service on the IND FUlton Street Line. M train service is being supplied by 4 (?) car R-40 slants.
--Mark
I see. I've haven't been on the M train since before the bridge closed and I thought they were using the normal r42/r40m. Prior to that, I've never seen an R40 slant on either the J, Z, or M in many, many years (the J line never).
They are assigned to the line for the duration of the Willy B closing(24 cars).The remaining cars run on the L line.They won't run them on the J/Z because they don't have Z signs on them.
What a way to clear up this nagging rumor but on SubTalk in the wake of recent Second Avenue subway messages. I need your help,fact or fiction?? The two following stations I heard have some sort of relation with a possible Second Avenue lin.
1) Grand Street(B)(D)(Q): Tiled walls are false. Tear them down and reveal two island platforms! Trackways on other side of temporary wall are the Second Avenue line. TRUE OR FALSE
2) Second Avenue (F): The middle tracks (used sometimes for turning trains or layups) is for the Second Avenue line or this is where the Second Avenue line begins. TRUE OR FALSE
Bear in mind this is what I've heard over the years. Now through the magic of cyberspace,maybe some SubTalker out there knows the truth. What do you think ??
Bill Newkirk
The walls at Grand Street (unlike Lexington Avenue) are real walls and would require digging, but yes, the Second Avenue was supposed to fit on outer tracks using those platforms here.
Two: NO, those tracks used to connect to the express tracks at Broadway/Lafayette but no longer do because of Chrystie Street. They were supposed to go to the South Fourth Station in Brooklyn (above Broadway on the G) as part of the IND Second System.
{ 1) Grand Street(B)(D)(Q): Tiled walls are false. Tear them down and reveal two island platforms! Trackways on other side of temporary wall are the Second Avenue line. TRUE OR FALSE }
I heard it's true. The Grand St. station was originally planned to be conected to a 2nd Ave. line and provide access to that line by trains from the Southern division of the BMT. The later designs have the Second Ave line meeting the 6th Ave. tracks in a layout similar to the Jay St station, with 2nd Ave trains against the wall and 6th Ave trains in the middle.
{ 2) Second Avenue (F): The middle tracks (used
sometimes for turning trains or layups) is for the
Second Avenue line or this is where the Second
Avenue line begins. TRUE OR FALSE }
False. Those tracks were intended to be connected to a Houston St. tunnel, leading into the massive South 4 St junction in Brooklyn. This would then serve the never-built Myrtle-Central-Rockaway line and the Utica Ave. line. Check out the section on this website that has to do with the IND Second System plans. It's fascinating to wonder what these lines would have done to the neighborhoods that they would have served.
"False. Those tracks were intended to be connected to a Houston St. tunnel, leading into the massive South 4 St junction in
Brooklyn. This would then serve the never-built Myrtle-Central-Rockaway line and the Utica Ave. line. Check out the section
on this website that has to do with the IND Second System plans. It's fascinating to wonder what these lines would have done
to the neighborhoods that they would have served."
Do you think the MTA would ever revive this plan?
I wouldn't bet on it.
About as likely as Rudy Guliani being the keynote speaker at this year's upcoming "1,000,000 Youth March" in Harlem.
If you want to know where the Second Avenue circa 1972 was supposed to go, check out a zoning map. Wherever you see grey and TA, you have a special district in which new buildings were required to provide easements for subway station exits. Lots of these were built on Water Street -- that whole street developed perhaps in anticipation of the subway. In fact, the whole East Side densified after the els were torn down and the Second Avenue was promised.
Maybe the way to develop West Midtown is to announce a Tenth Avenue Subway, never bother to build it, and pack people living there into slow buses like cattle. Seems to be the NY way.
Please also see the Abandoned and disused Stations site for furthewr discussion of the 2nd & Houston station. It is indeed way too large for what we have now but was built with more in plan.
In 1968-69 the MTA had a plan to use that station as part of an Avenue C "cuphandle" route. The line would have extended east on Houston, north on Avenue C, and then west on the 14th Street line to form a loop. Supposedly there would have been through trains from 6th Avenue as well as shuttles (off-hours maybe?) from Houston Street to 14th and 8th Ave. The idea was to serve the Lower East Side without diverting the main line of the 2nd Avenue subway.
The whole IND system in general was built with expansion in mind. In a way it's a shame the Phase 2 portion didn't come to fruition.
And speaking of development:
People are snapping up property in the Downtown Littleton area where our new light rail extension is being built. Not to mention the housing development at the Mineral Ave. terminal. Come July of next year, that line will be up and running.
The vent. building near Queensboro Plaza is used to vent which station
and/ or tunnels?
It's a new building.
There is a building located near 39st and West street.
I think its above the Lincoln tunnel.
Is it some sort of venting tower. Its made of brick about 70 feet high and vents on the side running
the length of the building.
The new buildings, one at Northern Blvd and 39th Ave, the other at 41st Ave and 29th St will be used to ventilate the new 63rd St connection lower level tunnels and the existing line. The intake to the first one can be seen on the wall of the Manhattan-bound local track just after leaving 36th st station.
As was built in the parking lot I use to park in for work. Donald Trump owned that one, I wonder how much was paid to him for "Public Domain"....
Now if there was only a stop there at the Old Long Island City Hisgh School...I can dream can't I?
You're kidding? Why do you think there would be a ventilation tower above a tunnel with cars making fumes running through it?
Well, I finally got my first C-3 ride today. I had only an hour or so to spare while in the Roslyn area, so I consulted my OB schedule... and drove to Mineola. I got train #560 from Mineola and rode to Sea Cliff, where I hopped off and immediately caught the next city-bound train back to Mineola (which was a nostalgia-train-to-be!). (I could have made it to Glen Street if #560 wasn't running seven minutes late -- Steve K were you on it today??)
Anyway, even after reading everyone's comments about the automated announcements, I was really stunned by how repetitive they are. For example, it announced Glen Head FOUR TIMES... two on approach, once in the station, and once upon departure!
I did feel better though when at Greenvale, the conductor had to make a manual PA about being in the front two cars for the platform. It was scratchy and nearly unintelligible. Ahhhh... back to normal.
I think the best feature of the cars is the 2x2 seating. I wish the Boston MBTA's bi-levels had that!
I took my first bi-level ride a week ago on the Babylon-Patchogue Scoot.
Sitting in Babylon station, the automated station sign said Oakdale. When we left Babylon, the station sign went off altogether, and the conductors made manual announcements at Bay Shore, Islip, Great River. Then the automatic system came it life again ... at Oakdale! So now we had both the conductors and the automated system making annoucements at Oakdale, Sayville and Patchogue. It was the first time I was almost glad they abandoned Bayport and Blue Point.
The system makes annoying sounds to indicate closing doors. Not good if you're dozing.
I'm taller than average but nowhere near basketball player quality. I'm a little over 6'1"--add another inch for sneakers. I had a few inches clearances over my head in the upper level while walking down the aisle, but I brushed my head on the luggage rack getting into a window seat.
They almost shouldn't bother with the luggage rack--there's too little clearance between the rack and ceiling to hold much of anything.
On the old LIRR psuedo-hi-levels the seats felt absolutely claustrophobic. On these they're not quite claustrophobia quality but the overall feeling is definitely "snug."
I agree that the fairly comfortable 2+2 seats are a good feature. If it were 3+2 with those low ceilings it would be claustrophobic.
One thing doesn't change on the LIRR. Coming back we caught the East Hampton-Jamaica train which was already crowded at Patchogue. As usual, LIRR personnel keyed themselves into the lead passenger car (the cab unit) for their private car ride to Jamaica.
Although we added crowds at Sayville, Bay Shore and Babylon bound for the City, and people were standing in the doorways, the "LIRR employee private car" remained sealed off.
This is a major PR problem for the railroad, which they've taken some steps to ameliorate, but it still needs work.
Why not just flip the levers at the car end and "key yourself" in with them!!!
Also - yes, those old car WERE really tight.
Another thing - I despise that door closing sound - for those who haven't heard it - think finger nails on a blackboard. I wish they would have kept the bell. Or even that stupid "ding dong" noise the R 62s make. But that screeching is just TOO much...
An any Brooklyn Bound LIRR with the head end closed to pax is a real pain in the tush. I personaly use the track exit to the Subway but 99% work off the front end of the station.
[ Why not just flip the levers at the car end and "key yourself" in with
them!!! ]
There is also a lock on the door, which you need a conductor's key for. They probably don't lock the closed off cars, though. I know they don't lock the door facing the Loco. One of these days, I'll wander in there :)
[ When we left Babylon, the station sign went off altogether, and the
conductors made manual announcements at Bay Shore, Islip, Great River.
Then the automatic system came it life again ... at Oakdale! ]
Yeah, they "pause" the system, until the train catches up with the announcements. I guess there's no easy way to "fast forward" or "rewind" them. The system is mileage based. -- maybe there was lots of wheel slippage along the way :)
[ The system makes annoying sounds to indicate closing doors. Not good
if you're dozing. ]
The C3's aren't good for dozing at all. Between the door beep that can wake the dead, the PA, the feedback, there's tons of annoying noises. On top of that, the lights are _very_ bright -- they hurt your eyes when walking in at night. It would be real nice if they could dim the lights by cutting out half the tubes at night, after leaving the originating station. It would still be bright enough to read with half the light.
[usual, LIRR personnel keyed themselves into the lead passenger car
(the cab unit) for their private car ride to Jamaica. ]
Yup. This really sucks. It's even pretty annoying when the cars aren't standing room only, but people are forced to use almost every available seat, while the crew relaxes in an empty car.
Then the automatic system came it life again ... at Oakdale!
Yeah, they "pause" the system, until the train catches up with the announcements. I guess there's no easy way to "fast forward" or "rewind" them. The system is mileage based. -- maybe there was lots of wheel slippage along the way :)
Really dumb question: wouldn't it be easier to have the conductor trigger the automatic voice at each stop? As it is, the conductors get on the horn to bellow out the station announcements anyway. Their voices may not be as beautiful as the automatic one, but there's the comfort of familiarity. ;o)
The new NJ Transit trains use GPS to measure their location. Its not mileage base. The LIRR is mileage base? They should use GPS. It will be more accurate then the mileage base system.
[ train back to Mineola (which was a nostalgia-train-to-be!). (I could
have made it to Glen Street if #560 wasn't running seven minutes late -- Steve K were you on it today??) ]
Why, you think it would be me causing it to be late! :)
No, I was actually on 568 last night (scheduled to leave Jamaica at 7:57, actual departure 8:05). Lately I've been on #570 most of the time, which uses the same equipment and crew as 560, I think. The normal conductor is on Vacation, but I'm pretty sure I know who your brakeman was (The normal conductor you might recognize also -- he's the bald guy with the mustache that goes across and then down on either side of his mouth. He's quite the character, and totally out of place with the new equipment. )
The announcements are repetitive. How was the volume on your train. Sometimes it is so loud that I'm seriously considering bringing ear protection. Between the 98db "DONG", and the incredible 3Khz feedback some units have, you can always see passengers cringing whenever the PA comes on.
Not as bad as the MSBA (Long Island Bus) automated announcements!!!!
Actually, Steve, I was grateful for the loud volume on the announcements. It washed out the annoying cell-phone user in the seat ahead of me!
[ Actually, Steve, I was grateful for the loud volume on the
announcements. It washed out the annoying cell-phone user in the seat
ahead of me! ]
That's what newspapers are for.. (whonk). I wish that they worked on the PA speakers. One of these days, a C3 passenger is going to come onto the train and destroy all the speakers to get a peaceful ride at least once.
That seems to be the norm these days, Todd. The other AM I was on train #2005, 4:06 AM from Ronkonkoma. The self-important person in front of me spent virtually the entire trip on his cell phone. he also made sure to speak loud enough so that everyone would know just how important he was. However, that's my 2nd pet peeve. Number one is that since the MTA banned loud radio playing, a new generation of annoying riders have emerged. They have their personal entertainment centers in their pocket, wear headphones and crank the volume up so high, you can still hear their music. However, since it's the highs that seem to blast through, all you hear are the scratchy noises. That is, unless you are lucky enough to have one of the budding rap artists who does his own rendition of what he hears, which is apparently not against the law.
(BTW: On the 12:58AM from Montauk, one night, the Conductor told one of the faux-rappers that people were trying to sleep. His reply, "They can sleep when they get home." Seems the LIRR needs more rules and better enforcement.
I always want to ask cell phone people if *I* can say hello too!!!
Once, on an amtrak train, a kid got on with a boombox, and promptly helped himself to the conveinence outlets on the wall. That didn't last long - if the conductor didn't shut him down, I'm sure the passengers would have!!
Look for Coby brand headphones - they're the weapon of choice.
No offense Steve, but I used Coby headphones before with my Sony radio, and they did not last for even a year. Aiwa is the way to go.
No offense taken but then again if one day a guy that looks like me snips the wire to your headphones, don't take offense to that either.
Talking about cell phones, has anyone tried the payphones on those trains and how long do you think they will last?
I'll say one thing for the LIRR Steve. Even though I haven't been on the Ronkonkoma branch for over a year, I can see that the people who ride the LIRR haven't changed a bit.
The BMT open platform gate cars used to display two signs in an upper window at each end of every car which indicated the route and destination of the train. These signs were 21 inches long and 3 and 1/2 inches tall. The IRT lo-V's used a very similar type of sign except that it was three of four inches longer. Is there anyone on the "site" who might know what type of signs were used in the C's or the Q's?. Could they have possibly used the exact same type of signs as the gate cars?
I was in the "Q" car in the Court Street museum yesterday and the signs were just as you mentioned. It didn't look like it had any rollers with other signs, as if they were made for the particullar line. However, (and its funny you should mention them) when I first saw it I thought that I didn't remember those signs being on the Myrtle in the 60's, the only time I rode on them.
my trainbuff page
I don't remember seeing any sort of signs on the Myrtle El cars (1600-series "Q" cars), front, side or otherwise. I thought it was a big deal when, at Myrtle Avenue, what I later found out was an R-7/R-9 mix waddled in with an "M" prominently displayed up front.
Wayne
Wayne:My memory is a little hazy on this but I think that by 1965 or so all the metal signs had dissappeared. Taken by railfans,TA people or vandals. I know that with the IRT cars on the 3 Avenue El a one piece wooden sign with upper and lower destination and route stencilled on was substituted. The same may have been done for the Q's on the Myrtle Avenue El.
Larry,RedbirdR33
You know, I thought the Qs had the same metal signs, but now I'm not 100% confident. For sure they did not have roll signs, and I don't recall any other kind of sign on them either. If I come across the answer, I'll post it.
However, noone mentioned an unexpected car type that most definitely used BMT style plate metal signs: the SIRT cars while running on the BMT division.
Also, the IRT cars that were modified for BMT use c.1959 had IRT length metal signs with BMT destinations.
Yes, the Q-types had metal signs. Also, when they were on the Third Avenue el, they had BMT-style metal signs with IRT destinations.
Plus, the Zephyr had aluminum metal signs.
I was working the terminal at 242nd St. yesterday,Aug 18. At 10:20 the entire complement of 110A's came rolling in light,with a TSS and a T/O pull man. They dumped, recharged and went back south. They returned exactly two hours later,12:20. They did the same as before,this time they went to 96th st where they were turned and sent to 239th St. yard. Everything seemed to be top secret, couldn't get the right time of day from the crew.
Yes it was at 242 Bway and I followed it out of 242 Street. I was the 10:26 out of VC. When I arrived back it was there at 12:20
I know that the US Post Office near Penn Station will be the new Penn Station. When will the new Penn Station open?
Thanks a lot.
Chaohwa
The estimate is for completion in 2003. It is supposed to be for Amtrak only; NJ Transit and the LIRR will stay where they are.
For those of you interested I just found out that the last day of FL9 operation on the LIRR will be Monday, September 13, 1999. I assume that they are going back to Metro North. But one never knows. As for the prototype Bi-level coaches, They are for sale!! What tourist railroad would want them? As for the FA/F3,9 powerpacks, they have been gone for about a month. I wonder if one will be left for the ERA trip?
I'm ignorant of the LIRR car or loco names. What are the FL-9"s and the FA/F3,9's. Thank you!!
The LIRR has used off the shelf equip. outside of third rail territory
so ......
FL-9 is a EMD/GMC designation, i.e. E-1, F-3. The L is for electric, well maybe it for something else, but the FL-9s are diesel/elect vs. diesel only for F-9.
FA & PAs are Alco designations (F - freight, P = passenger).
The LIRR used off the shelf equip.
The M series are third rail coaches. You'll find the same series on Metro-North Hudson & Harlem divisions. A similar M# plies the old New Haven, but they're Cosmopolitians (O/H) vs. Metropolitans (3rd rail).
The M plus double ditit (M-54) are the older elect & coaches.
Mr t__:^)
I thought all Diesels were "Diesel/Electrics" >G<
The FL-9's have third rail shoes for power from thrid rail when in Manhattan with the prime mover shut down.
/*
FL-9 is a EMD/GMC designation, i.e. E-1, F-3. The L is for electric, well maybe it for something else, but the FL-9s are diesel/elect vs.
diesel only for F-9.
*/
The L is for lengthened, I believe. They are a few feet longer than a stndard F unit. They are also the onlyt units GM made with a B + A1A truck arrangement.
FA & PAs are Alco designations (F - freight, P = passenger).
The LIRR used off the shelf equip.
The M series are third rail coaches. You'll find the same series on Metro-North Hudson & Harlem divisions. A similar M# plies the
old New Haven, but they're Cosmopolitians (O/H) vs. Metropolitans (3rd rail).
Actually, the Cosmos can do the third rail trick too. About all they have in common with the M-1/M-3 is the body shape.
The M plus double ditit (M-54) are the older elect & coaches.
Mr t__:^)
Actually, that would be MP- for electric, or P- for steam/diesel, or PT- for the LIRR rebuilt stuff that's finally being retired. The P designation was the PRR's way of denoting a passenger coach, add an M if it's got traction equipment. The LIRR also had MBM-54s, BM-54s, and other variations. Also realize that MP-54s, etc, came in standard MU, powered trailer, unpowered trailer, unpowered control trailer, and maybe even married pairs (the PRR used them). They also converted a few cars from steam to electric and then other way around. Easy, since the MP-54 and P-54 were identical, except for the traction equipment on the MP-54.
And, I know *nothing* about the MP-41!!! Other than they were close to the origional IRT cars (supposedly)
Until the LIRR M-1's were delivered, there weren't any "married pairs" on the LIRR.
The 'L' in FL9 is for 'Lengthened', as the locos were built for the NYNH&H for trains into GCT from diesel territory. They have a 'B' truck pn the front end, and an 'A1A' truck on the rear. It's a diesel-electric/electric, as it takes third rail power in the river tunnels and Penn and GCT.
Most 'diesel' locomotives are truly diesel-electric, as the disel engine turns an alternator that generates electricity that is then manipulated to drive the traction motors, and thus the train.
-Hank
Actually not all "diesels" are diesel-electric. There have been some diesel-hydraulic, though this method was never very popular in North America. The only examples used in mainline railroading were six cab-type units on the Southern Pacific and the Rio Grande, followed by fifteen hood-type units delivered later to SP. They were all built by Krauss-Maffei of Germany.
There are many of the smaller industrial units ("critters") that are diesel-hydraulic as well.
Not sure of the situation in Eurpoe where many locomotives were diesel-hydraulic; we never hear much about it any more, so I am assuming that the diesel-electric technology is the majority over there nowadays.
Not sure of the situation in Eurpoe where many locomotivesw were diesel-hydraulic; we never hear much about it any more, so I am assuming that the diesel-electric technology is the majority over there nowadays.
A quick look at the European Train List reveals that, among other European companies, DBAG (Deutche Bahn) continues to use diesel-hydraulic locomotives for both shunting and mainline work. The latest (upgraded/rebuilt 1992) DB diesel-hydraulic class is rated at 2760hp with a maximum tractive effort of 276kN: certainly not a critter. Large-scale diesel-hydraulic seems to be waning in populatrity, however, as pretty much all new D-H orders have been for shunters.
CH
The FL-9 has been around for many years. Several years ago many of these units were rebuilt with AC propulsion. The LIRR has temporary custody of 2 of them #300 and 302. These two locos can operate on 3rd rail power in electric territory and diesel everywhere else. Currently, they ars assigned to the Port Jeff branch pulling the C-1 prototype Bi-Level cars on one daily round trip. The C-1s are up for sale and the FL-9s are heading back to MNRR.
The other F units are the cab units #600 series that have been removed from service. They were used as control units with HEP on the western end of many diesel trains. They had no traction equipment and could not move under their own power.
The LIRR has THREE FL9's. 300-302. 301 has been out of service for a long time as a parts source to keep the other two running. Last month they started putting 301 back together. I guess it has to be operable when MNRR gets it back.
Same "Some must die so others may live" philosophy that the TA has. The LIRR has also stripped 2 of the C-1s. They are being advertised for sale"as is".
Funny story about that engine. When I worked for ABB
Traction (now AdTranz) doing warranty repairs on those
engines, a LIRR road foreman went out to the round house
to move one of the FL9AC's.
Now because they must be able to operate under third rail
power and with the prime mover shut down, battery charging
and air supply comes from the HEP system. Whether the
engine is running or not, or if your on third rail or not,
if the HEP is not up, you will have no air for the brakes.
Unique amongst diesel locomotives. The road forman made an
honest mistake. He applied the independent brake handle to
full service and then went to release the hand brake in
the engine room. Neglecting to observe the brake cylinder
pressure gauge. As soon as the hand brake was released,
the FL9 rolled. RIGHT INTO THE TURNTABLE PIT! The rail
ends punctured the fuel tank and leaked 500 gallons of
diesel into the pit. This is why that engine sat as a shop
queen/parts supply for years.
Now for the funny part:
When I was in training for my engineer's certificate,
told this story to one of my instructors, figuring he'd
probably heard it already. Lunch was over and we had a few
before classes resumed.
He listened and smiled, while I recounted the story of
this fool. Then he grinned and replied. "I'm glad I didn't
get fired over that."
I heard that story from an engineer friend of mine. I was told that the instructor was not even disciplined for that small oops. He was told to take a few weeks vacation.
Now a question: "Had a few before classes resumed?"
The man, Rod Brooks is a very patient and well qualified instructor. He takes his lunch in the classroom brown bag style. "had a few" refers to time before the class resumed. I honestly felt bad for him. But hey, it's life.
Discipline for honest mistakes is almost non existant over there AFIK. But if you really screw up then it's your ass.
Unlike here where you're guilty even before any accusation in many managers eyes.
[ Now a question: "Had a few before classes resumed?" ]
I guess he was demonstrating Rule "G" :)
After extensive talks with LIRR personal, it would seem the FL9's were not maintain correctly. LIRR history under the MTA predates such blunders, in this case the installation of the locomotives inverters in reverse. Just recently they ruined their warranty on their DE30AC's because they didn't like the way they brakes came. To this day, you will not see 404 on the road, it's already spare parts. If you take the LIRR to Brooklyn, take a look in the yard leaving Jamaica. Beware, they know we're looking for it so now they move it around the yard. So far the DM30AC's are OK, but the FL9's were doomed as soon as the LIRR shops started servicing her.
I heard that when MN gets back the LIRR FL9's they are supposed to be rebuilt and put back into service. So now, which two of the DE30's will be in charge of the 4:44 a.m. bilevel to Penn, now that the FL9's are leaving? Does anyone have any loco numbers?
The 5:44am from Port Jefferson to Penn is train #605. I've heard rumors that the first pair of DM30ACs will be put in service to replace this equipment on 13 Sept. Smart move on the LIRR's part considering they'll have replacement equipment (current FL9ACs/C1s) if there are any initial problems.
Two "likely" answers for engines are 506 & 508 or 506 & 514. I question the #514, though since the LIRR supposedly has only ordered 12 initially.
What tourist railroad would want them,what railroad would want them period. They are height restrictive,high level platform only and probably have incompatable voltage. That's why they won't couple up to newer type bi-levels,the voltage doesn't match!! That's smart.
What would be smart would be lease or sale to a private company who would finance and operate them as bonafide parlor/bar cars and run with the new bi-levels out to Montauk. Right now they are very expensive stainless steel boxcars!! Remember what happened to the M-1 styled gas turbine cars,scrapped!!
Bill Newkirk
[ As for the FA/F3,9 powerpacks, they have
been gone for about a month. I wonder if one will be left for the ERA
trip? ]
The powerpacks are not all gone! I drove in today, and stopped by Morris Park area, and saw at least 615 and 621 there right next to 3100 (power-pack for the C1's, made from a FA, I think). Probably others also, as well as a whole bunch of MP15's and GP38's. All lined up near what I think is the old coal or water tower.
When I said the FA/F3,9 powerpacks are all gone I meant that they are all out of service
I'm still not good with the technical descriptions. Which cars are being retired on 9/13 by description?
The cars being retired on 9/13 are the prototype Bi-levels, The ones that have been running on the Port Jefferson branch for the last 8 or so years. They are not compatable with the "new" Bi-levels. That train currently leaves Penn Sta. on the only direct train to P.J. at around 4:46? PM
[ I'm still not good with the technical descriptions. Which cars are
being retired on 9/13 by description? ]
The engines (FL9-AC's) are numbered 300 and 302, and are painted red-white and blue. Metro North uses the same ones, with a similar paint scheme. I think they're very impressive looking machines.
The cars are the old bilevels, called C1's. Externally, they look almost exactly like the new ones, except that they say "METROPOLITAN TRANSPORTATION AUTHORITY" across the side, and the new ones don't. The finish is somewhat different also, I think. On the inside, the floor arrangement is almost the same, but the C1's have 3+2 seating, while the new C3's have 2+2.
Actually, several trains are rumored to be replaced with new equipment on 13 Sept.
Trains #605/660 currently use the FL-9AC/C1 equipment for dual-mode operation into Penn station from the Port Jefferson diesel territory. This is the first train to be replaced with DM-30ACs since its replacement must be dual-mode as well. This is scheduled for Sept 13.
Train #664 (I don't recall the AM train # for this equipt.) is scheduled to be replaced with a pair of DE-30ACs moving a consist of 8 C-3s maintaining its current bar service (but without dedicated bar). History will be made with this one as well:
Single GP38-2 pulling 11 coaches
Old-style pullman coaches with manual ("storm") doors and independent generators for HVAC & lighting (no HEP needed)
The only converted bar still in service on the LIRR (not parlour but an actual bar without seats)
I'm glad I got my pictures in just in time. I'll try for a few more but at least I already have some in case I don't get a chance :-)
I've also got plenty of memories riding the open vestibule of the last car (no trailing engine). To bad I don't have pictures from here, though.
There is another train being replaced but I don't have information handy.
I just recently moved to Chicago, and I wanted to try out the transit options. While riding the Purple Line southbound, I saw the remnants of two outside tracks between the northern Red Line subway portal to just before the Chicago Ave. station.
I've read references in Subtalk to the Evanston Express and its long-past glory years; were these tracks used for that? Specifically, I'd like to learn what tracks/switches were used by the three lines (Red, Brown, Purple) from just north of Belmont to Chicago Avenue, and the year they reconfigured everything.
Thanks for any help I get! (If there's a page somewhere that would give me this info faster, that'll work, too.)
Space doesn't permit a complete history of Chicago's North Side rapid transit here. First of all, there was no one year when the system was reconfigured. It's an evolutionary process.
The original North Side 'L' was four tracks from Chicago Avenue north. The outside tracks were local; the inside tracks express. North of Wilson Avenue, this was reversed. When the subway opened in 1943, this reduced congestion on the 4-track 'L' south of Armitage. When the North Shore Line interurban quit in 1963, there were even fewer trains on the 'L'. Ravenswood trains used the outer tracks, and Evanston Express used the inner tracks.
To speed service, most local stations (at quarter-mile intervals) were closed, starting in the forties. With only one station remaining between Armitage and Chicago, Sedgwick, a Ravenswood "B" stop, CTA determined that two of the four tracks were redundant. They were abandoned by 1978, the year I left Chicago.
I hope this answers your question.
In the NY Post Friday August 20, page 8, is a article about the new, clean, well-lighted pedestrian tunnels at Grand Central Terminal still are not heavily used, two days after opening.
On Wednesday August 18, a new passageway in Grand Central North opened, only 7,750 commuters passed through during the morning rush. Yesterday Thursday August 19, the figure rose to 10,800.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, your thoughts are welcome. Don't crowd now.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
This article is in the NY Daily News of Friday August 20 page 8, NOT THE ny post.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
There was also an article in the Times, which I read.
Took a long lunch and explored the whole thing yesterday. Pretty cool. It even has the new block-letter LCD signs (like in the main terminal) next to the stairs to the platform. Plus people handing out maps.
(Recall that I got an early glimpse of it over a year ago when we were discussing what was under the lower track level.)
WHAT??? It's been open two whole days in the middle of August and it's not bustling yet? Give it at least 6 months, maybe allow people to return from vacation. The road I drive to work hasn't been crowded since June 20, when school ended. I get the feeling I will have to take alternative routes starting, oh, around Labor Day. The new pedestrian tunnel will get used once enough people realize it is there.
I used a vending machine to get my Funpass this morning. It was at Court Street and they had a nice young woman there to push all the buttons for me. I got a Funpass with a commemorative design on the back and a free metrocard holder with the same commemorative design. The machines are cool though they are of the "touch screen" variety. one can only imagine the end of the week when half of New York has put their grubby fingers on the screen. Perhapse the city can employ now out-of-work squigee guys to come and clean the glass!!!
I also wonder how long it will be before they get hit with scratch-iti on the screen.
What kind of commerative MetroCard was issued by the vending machine? And at what station?
Court Street.
The Card has a picture of a ship crossing the English Channel.
That would be the first issue in the "Millennial Journeys". Initially we thought you could only get them as $17 unlim local weekly. Then we were told $15 value or $17 unlim.
It's interesting to lear that you can buy them out of certain MVM machines, i.e. $4 Fun Pass would be the cheepest way to get one.
BTW, to my collector friends I've seen quite a few this week, so they must be widely available.
P.S. The promo brochure shows them with VISA or Am Exp logo, but all my examples don't have that. Anyone seen one with logo ?
Mr t__:^)
Yes, mine has a Visa Logo. Like I said, try the vending machine at Court Street. They have 3 machines there. The machines, it seems, take credit cards and ATM cards too!!!
What's more, they have a nice young woman there to push the buttons for you and to appologize for the Susan B. Anthony Coins in your change!!!
Chris, Thanks very much for the reply. For collectors this is bad news because it means they were made in two batches. The same occured with a Jackie Robinson MC 10/97. The TA chart list it as #38 with a production of 160,000 (a high quantity ... some were as low as 4,000). As the hobby matures someone will find out how many of each were produced, and O-N-E of them will appreciate in value (I happen to have some of both).
Right now I just trade for fun and get the greatest pleasure of trading with folks out-of-town, I have about 40 of these.
So Chris the one you have may be the one that they made less of. If you, or anyone else out there wants one of each e-mail me off line and I'll be happy to swap one with out the VISA logo.
Mr t__:^)
Thurston,
As I was saying there was this woman there who walked you throught the machine and pressed the buttons for you. When the card came out she mentioned that to save the card after it ran out as it was sure to be a collectors item.
I have to say that someone once said the same thing to me about the Susan B. Anthony Dollar and This morning when the vending machine dispensed my change it dumped a lot of those stupid coins on me. All 1979. They didn't catch on and the government is using all of the tricks to try and unload them.
I found a "Crossing the Channel to Normandy" card at a station yesterday. It had no Visa log on it and had "expired." Perhaps it was from the museum or a vendor. I guess the station agent at Columbus Circle was right when she said that the machine was dispensing the card. I will try to stop at Court Street for the one with the Visa logo.
When I got my free London Underground holder at 34 & 7, the $15 card the machine gave me was ordinary. Do the machines have different stock for unlimited and value cards? I really don't need another short-term unlimited card. I also need to start using up TransitCheks, so I really wish that the MVMs took them, especially if they are going to have special cards in them.
The MVM will never take your card back, but they're going to shortly install another machine next to them, a MRM, i.e. Refill machine.
I think it was Hank that said they are about the same size.
Marc, your post has brought another question to my mind ... the Transit-Chek is a value card, so I ASSUME that you can re-fill them. Have you ever tryed to do that ?
BTW, My collection has helped the company in a small way ... our MC sales office gets the paper form of the TransitChek all the time, but had never seen the MetroCard version until I showed them one. I got the impression some customers were trying to send in the MC version as payment for the Unlimited Express MC, $120. Now they'll be better able to explain to them why they can't do that.
Mr t__:^)
Eye asked: "The Transit-Chek is a value card, so I ASSUME that you can re-fill them. Have you ever tryed to do that ?"
A Station Agent friend has advised me that "YES- you CAN refill the cards with the present machines. That is what they told us in class."
We're talking about the card that has the standard MetroCard logo on the front and TransitChek on the back vs. the paper "check" that folks sent my company to buy rides with (we sell MetroCards that you can pay with credit card, personal check or TransitChek... plug plug).
BTW, the volume of MC/TransitChek that eye C has grown significantly.
Mr t__:^)
Nothing wrong with the SBA Dollar, other than people were too stupid to look (or feel the right spot) when they used it. Canada replaced their $1 with a coin, and a new $1 coin will come to the US in early 2000. Would you rather $6 worth of quarters when you use a $10 for your funpass? Don't forget, the machines ACCEPT the SBA, and every vending machine that gives multiple dollars in change uses them as well. PATH turnstiles accept them as well.
-Hank
I'm going to combine all my responses here.
MVMs have been around for months! I have a website about it. I've never seen a dirty MVM, as for scratching, they have the people there that assist you with the machine, plus the agent. Besides, any idiot who scratches a GLASS screen, deserves the consequences. Now, SBA coins are a lot better that crinkly dollars that always have to be flattened for use in machines, held in a wallet or roll of bills that have to be taken out and except for markings are no different from their higher valued friends. I can't wait for the government to force the new Sacagawea coins on the ridiculously stubborn American public. Maybe they can finally switch to Metric. Also remember that coins are easier to dispense as change than bills.
I'll be adding Court Street - Borough Hall N R 2 3 4 5 to my site.
Using touch screens in NYC seems a bit optimistic. A couple of buttons with writing next to them, a place to put your credit card or a couple of bills and a slot for the card to come out is all they needed.
____________________________________________________________
| 0 $4 card __________ Insert Money Here or |
| 0 $17 card __________ Insert Credit Card Here |
| 0 $63 card |
| |
| + to increase number of cards |
| - to decrease number of cards |
| |
| _______Take Card Here. |
____________________________________________________________
The options available on the machine would make such an option to cluttersome and complicated.
It's not a true touch screen. It's replaceable, without replaceing the monitor. It's an add-on, costs about $150 bucks. I'd assume the ones the TA is using are of thicker polycobanate than normal.
-Hank
I am currently typing a glossary of subway terms. I have
covered terms like OPTO, MVM, GO, GOH, MTA, etc.
If anyone has anything to contribute, please e-mail it to
me so that I can add it to the list. I hope to have it
completed by Monday.
Thank you.
I'm told that if you get on the downtown 1 at a particular car, you can see into the 96th Street tower and be able to see if an express is coming or not, so that you can know whether to bail for the express or hang out on the local. Which is the correct car to get on? And how do you read the board to know whether to stay or bail? Usually, I have bad karma late-nights: if I stay on the 1, I'll see an express pass me up at 79th, but if I get off for the express, it'll take forever for a 2 to show up and by the time I get into 14th, the downtown 1 that I got off of will already be gone.
Eye took the 1/9 for years downtown past 96th. I found if you crossed the platform and looked backwards down the track (you can see quite a way), if you don't see lights, staying on the local was a pritty safe bet. I also looked both ways, i.e. if a train just left, run back to the local. You did have to do this quickly or the 1/9 left without you.
BTW, not toooo long ago this kind of discussion (running between the local & express) started a rather long thread. It would make this guys day to beat the local to 34th.
As far as the tower, it's at the tail end of the platform. Eye suggest you get off at 96th and watch the lights on the board for a while. At the Noth end there a short wall platforms, but I think you can't get to them anymore (except for the piece used to enter the station).
Mr t__:^)
Ride the last car by the first door panel and you will see the tower machine. If you know the machine, you'll be able to see a Lenox train (#2 or #3) as far north as 110th St.
Folks ...
Just posted to the site is my Capsule History of the IND. (Well, it's not so capsule, it ended up being longer and more detailed that I first thought).
Enjoy! Comments/corrections always welcome.
--Mark
Just finished reading this---Whew!!!
IMHO, an excellent job. Thanks.
EXCELLENT READING!!!
Mark, I read over your excellent "capsule history" lightly, but I can see it's a wonderful effort! Congratulations!
I'd like to offer a micro-nitpick, which I bring up because I made the same error many years ago in one of my own writings--referring to Mayor Hylan as a "motorman" is an anachromism. He was a locomotive engineer at the time of his "unfortunate incident".
I would also like to offer some additional information that I think is important issue in understanding why the so-called "Second System" never saw the light of day.
The IND's marvelous engineering, flyover junctions, provisions for future expansion, complex terminal facilities, near 100% underground, etc. came at an enormous price--at the time of Unification, City taxpayers had invested approximately $400 million in the IRT and BMT systems combined. But they had invested $750 million in the IND!
This reflected dramatically in the debt service for rapid transit paid by the City. From 1919 to 1926 the average debt service for rapid transit was $9.62 million per year. From 1927 (when IND debt began to be serviced) to 1944 this averaged $37.82 million per year!
Part of the difference (between BMT/IRT and IND) reflected the enormous inflation during World War I (for the Contract I and II lines and other city-financed construction before World War I) but even more reflected the fact that the City spent freely on its own system with the taxpayers' money and without the considerable contributions of the private companies.
So looking only at the financial constraints on building a second IND system, the City was ill-prepared to acquire enormous additional debt at a time when it was beginning its long upward spiral of social service spending.
Good comments all. My next, minor, revision (in about 6 weeks or so) will have a timeline of significant events and a list of my sources. I'd like to include this posting in it as well, if I may.
--Mark
I'd like to include this posting in it as well, if I may
Of course you may.
Mark: A thoughtful and well written work.Very informative.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Larry
Mark, this is good reading. The B and C train have changed terminials in March or May of 1998. B train now goes to Bedford Park Blvd on weekdays during AM and PM rush hours. B train than goes to 145th Street and Coney Island during non-rush houres on weekdays. The C train now goes to 168th Street.
Charlie Muller Bedford Park Blvd.
A magnificent effort and excellent presentation.
I really think you captured the essence of the highs and lows.
Thank you
I am sure I will enjoy your monograph.
I downloaded it so I can read it off-line.
I do not want any other web traffic to disturb my reading.
I should add the following:
The Crosstown line, having no express stations, uses three forms of green in its tile bands, with light green indicating transfer stations (Broadway was planned as a transfer to a Second system line).
Someone's bound to pick up on this "exception to the rules".
Wayne
Very broad and detailed article. I skimmed through it, but am printing off a copy so I can give a more proper read.
Thanks for posting it for us buffs in training !
Mr t__:^)
We're ALL buffs in training! I never consider myself an "educated" buff because someone always knows something interesting that I don't!
--Mark
Well written indeed!
A few observations:
In the World's Fair Railroad section, you began with, "About 6 monthe before construction on the 6th Ave. El began". I think you meant to say "6th Ave. line."
IND engineers did indeed attempt to induce local riders to stay on their trains to their final destinations. You could say that the number of local-only stations south of 59th St.-Columbus Circle was held to a bare minimum - three out of twenty. 14th St. and 23rd St. on the 6th Ave. line didn't count, since the express tracks were built later, as you pointed out.
In the Second System section, it may be worth mentioning the proposed Lafayette Ave. extension. It would have begun at Bedford-Nostrand Aves. for which the never-used middle track was put in, then continued along Lafayette Ave. to Stanhope St., where it would have turned slightly to align with the Myrtle Ave.-Central Ave. line, thereby forming a four-track line.
I would also add the fact that the IND letter code caught on right away because each and every train carried a letter marking right from the start. This is in stark contrast to the BMT, whose number markings were never consistently applied to trains because most of the company's rolling stock did not have front end signs. "Take the A Train" has a much nicer ring to it than "Take the Wash. Hts.-8th Ave. Express".
One more tidbit: you might also want to mention the 6th Ave. line had to dodge the LIRR and Pennsylvania RR tracks at 34th St. which lead into Penn Station, in addition to the BMT Broadway line, PATH/H&M, and the humungous water main.
Good comments all. Thank you.
I should add that I have a borrowed copy of Cunningham & DeHart's "History of the NY Subway System part III" which covers the IND in detail. Suffice it to say that a major revision of the capsule history is in the works to include anything new that I find in that work, as well as listing a timeline of significant events and a bibliography.
--Mark
When we buy new cars, we care about price and quality. The MTA also needs to consider the need to redistribute income to deserving people who are not on welfare. Perhaps that's why Kawasaki is in Yonkers, and Bombardier is in Plattsburg. How much does this cost us?
Over the past 10 years, new motor vehicles have risen in price by 20 percent, and have added new features and improved reliability. The R68s cost about $1 million each -- $8 million per train. How much will the R142/R142 cost per train? Let me guess -- more than $10 million?
"Local content" requirements do not mean that the cars are built 100% in NYS or even that their major components are built here. It generally means that the final assembly is done here.
It would be interesting to see an economic analysis of the cost/benefit of these local content requirements. Is the amount recovered from the economic benefits of local job creation more than the extra cost of using higher-priced local labor?
Taxes paid by these employees to NYS are divided between city and otehr state areas, the places the workers shop also pay taxes, etc. There may even by a benefit in welfare, unemployment, retraining benefits that the State doesn't have to pay.
Maybe the City should make it a priority to develop some kind of local rail manufacturing capability--I think there was a suggestion that the Brooklyn Navy Yard could be a venue. But I'm sure a lot of neighborhood groups would go bonkers if any new heavy industrial was proposed nearby.
Taking a different implication of your post, no matter where they're built, or who they're built for, I get the impression that rail vehicles are way too expensive.
There are railcar plants in Eastern Europe fairly idle that could probably produce our equipment real cheap. Do you trust them?
Paul, I even think that if the demand were there from several municipalities for a "generic" type subway and/or commuter rail car, I seriously believe that even a defense-contractor like Grumman could be involved in producing rail equipment for domestic use.
Just a thought.
Doug aka BMTman
Boeing LRV!!!!!!!
(sorry, couldn't resist :)
Boeing LRV!!!!!!!
(sorry, couldn't resist :)
Apt comment, actually. But I would counter:
President's Conference Car!!!!!!
The former was a result of government bureaucracy mandating a design as a condition on federal aid.
The latter the result of an industry joining together to pool resources and development standards that they could live with to advance their industrial objectives.
I believe that Portland, OR, is buying some Czech-built streetcars. A Czech company (Tatra or Skoda?) is also in bidding on new cars for SEPTA's Girard Ave. line.
Maybe the City should make it a priority to develop some kind of local rail manufacturing capability--I think there was a suggestion that the Brooklyn Navy Yard could be a venue. But I'm sure a lot of neighborhood groups would go bonkers if any new heavy industrial was proposed nearby.
I have always thought that the TA had the resources to actually produce cars for itself, the LIRR, MNRR and even PATH. The real problem is the fabrication of the car body. When Morrison Knudsen was building the cars for Norristown and for CTA, the bodies were fabricated and shipped from Brazil. If the TA could do similarly, the rest would be relatively simple. Will it happen? Likely not. Too many international implications......
The Brazilian fabricator is I believe Mafersa(this is the BUDD licensee). Can you say coals to Newcastle? It seems to me that the TA could simply go out to the various subs for the necessary parts and hire the assembly on their own as a contingent contract. The only real defect here is an entity to point fingers at when the cars are late or crap. However, it is long past time for 2 standard subway cars for the NY met area-- an IRT/Path car and a BMT/IND size for the TA and SIRT. If the cars were ever standardized we could all reap the benefits--like commonparts/sub assemblies. The capitalist claim is volume = lower price. So why is the TA still buying essentially serial custom runs?
If anyone is being ripped off, I definately have to say SEPTA has with the piece of crap MFSE M4 cars. What junk. They make the beautiful ALMOND JOYS and REDBIRDS seem like the greatest cars to ever exist. Because of them the MFSE is constantly messed up especially during rush hours they seem like they cant keep up with each other.....RIPPED OFF
Part of the problem has to do with the decline in the U.S. rail car industry in general. Remember, none of the manufacturers of any of the city's subway cars over the first 75 years of operation are still in business. That definitely cuts down your options and the level of competition, unless you want to go overseas like the D.C. Metro did. Then you run into conflicts with the manditory NYS content issue.
I wouldn't mind buying from overseas if the price difference was large enough and the quality was good. This protectionist stuff always hurts in the long run.
Under the current deal, the Bombardier cars are being assembled in Plattsburg. As a result of the decline of the loony, the cars might have cost much less if prices in Canada.
The TA isn't being ripped off with the purchase of new subway cars. We are. By the time the 1,000+ R-142s are delivered, there will be dozens of "change-Orders" and hundreds of "Field Modifications". Why??? Because the TA, PATH, SEPTA, and the rest all want their own subway car. What's worse, when the cars start coming, everybady says "ooooh we shoulda gotten this" or "we shoulda left this out". Every change cost money.
Think in terms of TWA going to Boing and asking for a 747 with 5 engines or you go into your local Ford Dealer and tell them you want a Mustang with 6 speeds and a 24 volt electrical system. In both cases, the manufacturer will say - sorry - no can do.
It's time for APTA to set some standards for US heavy rail. If TWA, United, and USAir can use the same plane, why can't the TA, PATH and others use the same basic subway car? Until they do, we will continue to have our pockets picked.
I agree, standardization of commuter rail cars would certainly reduce the costs overall, and if made well, will save on maintenance-downtime in the long term.
However, getting all the different companies and municipalities to pick one or two particular cars with sharable components is going to be the sticking point.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, It has been done before. Remember the PCC? Suppose the TA, instead of modifying the L Line for the R-143s went to one of the current Heavy Rail Manufacturers and bought a car 'off the shelf'. Do you think they would have cost nearly as much as a custom model?
Agreed. I believe the SOAC cars were trying to address this. The Railroads do this. Bombardier's coaches are also as good as an example as engines are.
Anon-e-mouse makes a good point too. But the aircraft manufacurers build them with the options in mind. If a carrier doesn't want an option a convienent panel is installed to cover the slot where it would have gone.
A 75 foot car ran in a few cities with few mods. It could be done, and it would save a fortune.
Most of the differences in say a PATH car as opposed to an R-62 are minor. Nothing really hard to change in a production facility.
My point about the aircraft was that if USAir wants a 737-400 and United wants a 737-400, the ammenities may be different. They may have different number of seats but the USAir version will be as wide and long as the United version.
(Aircraft are as wide and long). However, airplanes fly in the air, while subway cars have specific tunnels. Heck, you need two different cars just for the A and B divisions of the TA. Then you move onto Metro-North with under-running power pick-up, the LIRR's over-running, pantographs on NJT, etc.
And, there is the whopper of an order followed by nothing for a decade factor. What did the TA expect all these folks to do for ten years?
Perhaps components could be made common. Take the trucks, for example. Chrysler uses the same engine in its small and mid-sized cars. The TA could use the same truck for the A and B division, at the expense of having the B division be a little underpowered (isn't it already?). I think the big thing is to buy, and to rehab, 200 to 300 cars for the MTA every year to keep people in business.
Good point Transit Pro, I almost forgot about thos SOAC cars of the early 70s that made the rounds of various subway systems.
Doug aka BMTman
Would it be worth installing platform extenders and gradually converting the whole subway to IRT standards in order to standardize the cars? You'd lose capacity, though the B division trains could still be longer.
I probably wouldn't go that far, because you would lose some passenger capacity per train and would have to add additional cars to make up the difference, though a 12-car, 612-foot IRT train would have 36 side doors, four more than an eight-car 600-foot train of 75-foot BMT/IND cars, making entry and exits faster. But it would have four less than a 10-car train of IND/BMT 60-footers, which is what the MTA should have always been buying (and will again, when the R-143s arrive).
But if the MTA is going to have a surplus of A Division trains after the R-142s arrive and a shortage of B Division cars when 63rd St. opens, shifting some of the IRT cars over to the B Division would make far more sense than stupidly scrapping them and leaving IND and BMT riders squashed like sardines for two or three years until the next order arrives.
But which lines could you convert in isolation? Only the L, right? Will there be enough IRT cars available to serve that line?
They are planning to put the R143's on the "L" and to install CBTC. The only place where you could run IRT equipment would likely be the "M" Shuttle and maybe the "J" from Jamaica to Broad Street. You would have to put platform gap fillers on all the stations.
Wayne
Or just put extenders to reach the platform on the doors of the Redbirds, the way they did with the Low Vs on the Culver Shuttle back in 1959.
I must have missed a lot in this thread. The original hypothesis was that the L line could have been tweaked so as to accept an off-the-shelf car from a manufacturer at roughly 1/2 to 3/4 the cost of the R-143. The purpose of the R-142s is to get rid of several classes of cars on which the body rot has become so bad that they can not be salvaged. Yes, we could move R-36s to the L line and just widen the platforms and move the tripcocks. We could also roof-mount a Pratt-Whitney JT-4 and get them up to 300 miles per hour on straight, level track. Being able to do so does not mean that we should. It's time for the redbirds to go.
We'll wear red armbands for the occasion.
I'll bring party hats, balloons and fine champagne.
It's interesting to read the attachment to the Redbirds, especially given what we here in Phila have experienced (and what SubTalkers have read in some fashion) on the demise of the "Almond Joys". Sure, you hate to see them go, you grew up on them, your first ride was on them, your first picture, etc etc, but they wear out.
It's also interesting to go back about 17 years when the first Kawasakis were arriving on the Broad Street Subway. The subway was literally a day-to-day operation given the level of operable cars on the line, and riders were abandoning it in droves since it was hardly reliable. Not too many tears were shed when the first generation Broad Street fleet began to be phased out. Not too many folks moaned the passing of classics, etc. Yes, there were a few who hated to see the red cars go (our redbirds? allegedly, this is where David Gunn got the idea and the can of red paint!), but, for the most part, there was a yearning for the new cars which would totally revamp the service and the reputation of the line. Try and shoehorn your way onto a rush-hour express - and it's a great ride, rivalling MTA express runs on Central Park West, Queens Blvd, Fulton St, etc.
I think the greater hope at this point is that the Redbirds find their ways in sufficient numbers into museums where they can continue to be enjoyed by those who will truly appreciate them.
The sad thing about the Redbirds going is if you look at their MBDF, it's not that they're unreliable -- the improved maintenance over the past 15 years has helped raise those numbers way up -- it's that they're simply rusting out, probably due in part to the excessive number of anti-graffiti baths they've had to take over the past 20 years due to the MTA's incompetence back in the 70s and early 80s.
Does anyone remember when the Gibbs, deck roof, and Low V cars went out of service if they had anywhere near the rusting problem the Redbirds have?
There is a 'BMT Standard' being rebuilt in Coney island Overhaul Shop. I observed segnificant areas where te outer steel was completely eaten away. It's being replaced as needed including simulated rivets.
But Steve, that's not really a fair comparison. Those ABs are
85 years old, and have been out of service for 30 years.
When they were retired they were in fair condition, but then
they languished for a decade outdoors with no maintenance or
painting, with the roof ventillators left open, and on a track
near the edge of an embankment where they were deluged with
water runoff.
Of course, comparing a redbird to an AB is not fair because
the current redbird fleet was built with very thin body steel.
I think the change started with the R-26 order, and then
another reduction in weight was made starting with the R-29s.
If the TA had kept up maintenance, particularly the gaskets
around the doors, cab windows and side signs, and cleaning
of the floor drain holes near each door, then the cars might
have had a 50 year usable body life. I guess the anti-graffiti
acid washing didn't help either. As they are now, sorry guys,
they're all SHOT. If the TA was in a money crunch, they could
rebuild the cars again, but it would cost almost as much as buying
new, and you'd wind up keeping obsolete equipment.
Steve, a maintenance question: Is cleaning of the floor drain
holes a regularly scheduled maintenance item?
Weep holes are supposed to be checked regularly....
The BMT standards tended to accumulate water around the door pockets causing the outer skin to bulge.
As for frequent washing, dirt tends to hold moisture which can lead to corrosion. However, corrosion didn't seem to rear its ugly head during all those years when equipment was never washed.
Thank You! Someone agrees with me.... The Redbirds are a piece of history that's about to be extinct. I don't see why it can't be preserved. You can't save every Redbird, but if something was preserved, I could tell future railfans about how much I enjoyed riding a Redbird. At least one Almond Joy was preserved, #618 (Hi Mark!). Pertaining to the Almond Joy, I can't understand at this point how to put the car on Seashore's tracks. It wouldn't be operational unless it was regauged. The cars are broad gauge, the museum is standard gauge. How do you overcome that problem?
I've had this crazy idea (a fantasy perhaps), that I might go shopping for a Redbird and put it in a Museum.
-Stef
Go for it! Maybe Warehouse Point might be interested.
As for the Almond Joy, it would have to be regauged. Look at Shore Line's own St. Charles car. I don't know for sure if it runs, but if it does, it had to be regauged. It's probably easier to regauge from wide to standard than the other way around.
Well anything's possible. I'm not saying right now I'm actually going to do it, but if I can get the cash together, I think I would. Maybe I'll even take on partners who are interested. My first choice would be Shoreline if they haven't purchased one and was willing to take it in. It might be repetitive (vs the R17) and this was discussed before, but it's unique in it's own way (the World's Fair). A train of SMEEs on a Museum Line is certainly a fantasy.
Warehouse Point doesn't have any rapid transit equipment, so yeah, an R33WF car is a good way to expose them to the world of rapid transit.
-Stef
Ah, but Warehouse Point does have several CTA 4000-series L cars. One is a trailer; one still had its old Chicago Elevated scheme, and two had the yellow and green scheme I remember.
I hope the Chicago El cars are functional. I've never been to Warehouse Point, so I don't know much about what those kind folks do there. As always, I'm an avid supporter of Shoreline and what they accomplish in every way.
-Stef
AFAIK, the two cars in the yellow and green livery were operational; in fact, they would run as a two-car train, trolley poles raised. I was at Warehouse Point once, in 1983, and while I saw those cars, they weren't being run that day. They have a Montreal Tramways car which is a sister of Shore Line's specimen, as well as North Shore Interurban #710.
Speaking of the 4000s, how's Shore Line's 4280? Has it had any work done at all other than a paint touchup back in 1980?
No work has been done on 4280 since I started going there. It would be an interesting project to pursue in the future, since I've never had a taste of the Chicago El.
-Stef
I should know what this is but where's Warehouse Point?
-Dave
Connecticut.
Hi Dave...sorry to hear about your misfortune.
Warehouse Point is a trolley/electric railway museum located
about 10 miles north of Hartford, CT. They are more correctly
called the Connecticut Trolley Museum, though everyone in the
trolley museum biz calls them "The Point" The web address is
www.ct-trolley.org
Do they have any NYC subway cars? How does it compare with Branford?
I don't believe they have any New York subway cars. At least I didn't see any when I was there in 1983. Their mainline has one, possibly two, grade crossings.
They would have had an R-16 with some volunteers to go with it but they chose not to.
That wasn't 6398, was it? IIRC, Shore Line turned it down as well.
Whats ||RC mean?
IIRC = "If I recall correctly"
Yes it was the old girl. We had to shop 6398 around to several institutions before one would accept.
They had actually taken 6398, but for reasons I still don't know, at the last minute they canceled.
Shore Line, felt the car would be redundant to their collection. Never mind that it would have come with a dedicated team of restoration technicians and all the expenses would have been paid by us.
But when you have it all you can afford to turn down freebies.
Today we are happy at Kingston at The Trolley Museum of New York.
"It is far better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven"
Today we are happy at Kingston at The Trolley Museum of New York.
"It is far better to rule in hell, than serve in heaven"
Harry made some passing reference to your substation. Does this
mean you have traction power yet> Last I recall from talking with
Evan J. TMNY was having a battle with the local power company.
Yeah, Evan has settled with Central Hudson. Now he's putting the final touches on the rectifiers. We should have house 600 this weekend. The poles are up in the yard. We have appliedfor a TEA-21 grant. I hope you guys did too. If we get it, then we can do the entire property. The bridges, the tunnel, passing siding. I shake at the thought.
Good deal. I promised Evan that when you guys reached the
point that you could put 1000 over the pit with 600, I'd
help you get that car running.
Well, I can understand Shore Line's stance, since 6688 is a first cousin of 6398. My slogan would be the one I use when I get turned down: if you're not interested, it's your loss.
Speaking of 6398, are its door controls the same as those on 6688? In other words, do they match the photo of 6688's cab?
Similar. They were provided by a different manufacurer, National Pnumatic. Handles are slender and non removable. The indicator lens is also larger. Yes we found original unmodified ones! The MDC's for the most part, had the lens cut out and the hole covered with a plate having holes drilled in it, for the light to shine through. Or an R17/21/22 type lens grafted on. This was to faciltate changing the bulb. We manged to find some un-done, they had to have the entire cover removed to change the bulb. But they look great.
As a helpful measure we put an interior guard light in. It saves a lot of headache. Since the doors don't get operated frequently, they tend to cause problems, hanging up.
As a joke I wired an R-44 door chime into the PA system. You gotta see people's faces when they hear that one!
Thanks. Like anything else, car doors need their exercise. I'd give 1689's doors a good workout at Shore Line. And, for that matter, the doors on 800 and 1440 at Seashore.
I'm not affiliated with the point so I might not provide 100%
good info. I don't think anyone from that museum browses SubTalk.
Their collection is about 50 cars, of which about half are inside.
They are mostly a trolley museum although they have some railroad
equipment as well. They certainly don't have any NYC RT cars.
The closest thing is a pair of CTA 4000s. I don't think they have
any NY area trolleys either. Mainline is a about the same length
as Branford...1.5 miles, but dead straight, with a few passing
sidings and grade crossings.
[ They certainly don't have any NYC RT cars.
The closest thing is a pair of CTA 4000s. I don't think they have
any NY area trolleys either. ]
They have a LIRR MP-54. A "suburban" RT car, if you will. I don't think it currently operates.
Hey Steve, when are you coming up to Shoreline? If you were willing to get dirty, you'd might have some fun working on a car like 1689 or 6688. What do you say?
-Stef
One of my supervisors will be up there this week. Can't miss Mike as he is a rather large fellow. Put him to work. As for me, I'm trying to get a riding buddy to make the trip with me. I still don't mind getting dirty.
Well I hope to see you....
Actually, the post was for the other Steve (B), but as always I don't mind seeing and working with fellow SubTalkers. You certainly know a lot about things happening in transit! I start to think sometimes that a Museum with people who are familiar with the equipment, makes accomplishing a task much easier. You're TA, and I'd expect handling the R17 would be child's play for you.
Cheers,
Stef
-Stef
Believe me, if I were still living back east, I would be at Shore Line virtually every weekend. Keep in mind that I have been a resident of metro Denver since September of 1980. Out here we have the Colorado Railway Museum, which I still haven't visited. AFAIK, it has a PCC from Los Angeles and some narrow gauge rolling stock, but no subway equipment.
About the best thing I can do at this point is quote Ralph Kramden: one of these days, Alice, one of these days..
Stef: Do you recall when about seven 600's series M-3's were sent to the Norristown Line. They were placed over trucks from the PATH Class K cars that had been dumped into the ocean. I believe these cars were scrapped but maybe SEPTA still has a few trucks hanging around.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The Budds have gone off to the scrap yards. I thought the trucks were returned to PATH (I thought they were borrowed?).
There was no need to return the trucks as they came off the Class K's that were dumped in the ocean.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yes, you are correct. I wasn't sure if they were to go back since my understanding was that they were loaned. Does anyone know?
I don't know, but if I had to guess, the only reason for Path taking them back in would be to serve as a parts source for other Class K cars in work service. If Path orders new cars, the Class K fleet could disappear, as numerous PA's would be placed into work service.
Any thoughts on the Class K car? Was it reliable when it ran (I never rode this car)?
I'm surprised that no Class K car made it into any of the Museums! Any takers?
-Stef
The latest from PATH sources on the road (NOT PATH Big wigs):
OPTO is dead! FRA rejected the idea twice and it is now forgotten. PATH is deciding what to do about new cars to be called PA-5. (No proposals yet!). WHEN that happens, the PA-4 (3 door openings per side, 800 series numbers) would eb converted to AC propulsion and the PA-1 to PA-3 will be placed into work service. Some PA cars are already in work service. I gave Wayne a list of cars I have seen inw ork service.
There are a half dozen or so PA-1 thru PA-3 work cars out there. Most of the work motors on PATH are the venerable "K" cars and MP-51s, which are only one year older than the oldest Redbirds.
I show 694, 726, 754, 761 and 765 as work motors.
The "K" cars still about are 1203, 1209, 1210, 1214, 1223, 1235, 1240, 1241, 1242 and 1244. At least one is painted in grey/blue livery. Museum curators/harvesters should consider grabbing one of these "K" cars before they become extinct.
Wayne
"OPTO(at PATH)is dead!"
I would suggest that the sources "on the road" check THEIR sources (and with their union!)
The BLE (Motormen's) contract was settled two weeks ago;it contains a "re-opener" clause to be used WHEN one person train operation is instituted.
My sources indicate that FRA has taken a neutral stance;as long as brake tests and the like are performed by "qualified persons",they wouldn't have a problem with it.
On the operations side,FRA regs are somewhat ambiguous about who does what,using terms like "train crew" and "qualified person". The only "crew member" with clearly defined responsibilities is the Engineer. The other responsibilities are left to individual carriers to assign thru their book of rules.
Seashore has SEPTA PCC 2709, ex-Red Arrow center door car 66 (I believe), and PRT/PTC Nearside 6618 among other wide gauge cars. These have all been regauged for the museum trackage. I imagine 618 will get the same treatment.
Arden (Penna Trolley Museum) is also getting a 600-series car, although I'm not sure which one. It will be the first rapid transit car there. I would imagine Rockhill would want one at some point also.
It seems to me that the time has come for the Budds, even though at 39 they don't seem (or look) old enough to be retired. There isn't much corrosion on these cars unless you look at the carbodies very closely, and then you can see some concentrated at the ends and the side sills. What killed them was the lack of A/C and the '90 accident, which exposed their weaknesses - the cars never went through a complete overhaul at any time in their lives and the dropped motor which led to the '90 catastrophe was directly related to the lack of overhaul. If the cars had had a midlife once-over, they probably would have gotten another 5 years at best. The A/C problem would still haunt them.
As much as I hate to see them go, having literally grown up with them (I'm only three years older than them and I certainly don't think I'm ready to retire!), it seems that their time has come. When I took the fantrip last October, I was a bit nostalgic about them, but I also realized that they served well and were ready for a deserved rest. Now if they can only get all the bugs out of those M-4's...
I was at Arden this past Sunday, and 606 was basking in the sun.
David
[Arden (Penna Trolley Museum) is also getting a 600-series car, although I'm not sure which one. It will be the first rapid transit car there. I would imagine Rockhill would want one at some point also]
Bob well said about the Budd cars. I am 48 years old and have a lot of good memories of those nifty "Almond Joys". Funny thing I couldn't wait for those new M-4 cars to arrive. Well there hear know and yes they are nice and comfy. But I am starting to get a little home sick for the Budd cars. Go figure.
I would guess that another reason that people were not weeping to see the old BSS subway cars go was they were so very LOUD. As a young one, going down to Phils games, being quite scared by the immense noise of one of those trains entering City Hall station. Good Lord! And I lived almost next to a rail line, which at that time carried a large amount of freight. (They really did sound like freight trains).
Also, of course, there weren't electronic bulletin boards where everyone could vent their feelings about their beloved vehicles...
If we should put a Pratt and Whitney jet engine on anything it should be the R-68's. It might get them up to 20 mph.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Double rim shot!! Excellent!
[ We could also roof-mount a
Pratt-Whitney JT-4 and get them up to 300 miles per hour ]
Great Idea! Will these run from Broadway Junction to Rockaway Parkaway only, or will they be extending the vertical clearance in the underground portions of the line?
!gniddik ma I ,sey
Even with the shorter length of car, the Pratt and Whitney Redbird would probably have trouble with the Crescent St. curve on the J. However, given enough speed, it might still be able to land safely before reaching the Lefferts Blvd. bumper block on the A.
You could run 8- or even 9-car trains of modified Redbirds on the Eastern Division. By modified I mean extension sills similar to what the C units and Lo-Vs had.
But that would be too sensible.
Actually, many of the aircraft have the same subtle differences - not noticeable to the average passenger but very obvious to both the maintenance and flight crews - as rail vehicles. And, if you want a 24 volt system and a 6-speed in your Mustang, just write a bid sheet up - you'll get it, albeit at a significantly higher price and with a lot more lead time than for a standard model. Unless they've changed in recent years, all of the vehicles ordered for the US military have 24 volt systems and quite a number of different parts. Our rural police department back home in North Carolina obtained a pair of '89 Crown Vics free from the government back around 1994 - they were ex-Navy military police cars with less than 50,000 miles on the clock. But they had so many unique features, from the 24 volt system to the six-bolt rims and eight-quart crankcase, that they were virtually unmaintainable. The town kept them for one year, as per the agreement with the Navy, and sent them to the scrapper after less than 10,000 additional miles each.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You sound like a real fan of the Almond Joys. You have a good reason to be. Budd built a great subway car. Even with SEPTA's lousy maintenance these cars are still running. But lets give the M-4s are fair chance. They are the new kids on the block and like anything thats new they probably need to get the bugs out. So lets wait a little bit and see what the verdict is.
Sure the TA is being ripped off. Main reason: there aren't many places to go these days when you want someone to build you a subway car. So those who do can pretty much come up with any price and you end up having to pay the piper!
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, Interesting questions. The TA is still in specifying-every-but-and-bolt mode.
If you were a company wanting to buy a fleet of 2000 sedans for its sales staff, say, and you put out a detailed bid sheet specifying exactly how the cars were to look, be built, etc., I wonder what it would cost as compared to buying and customizing from a catalog of designs and options that auto makers were already tooled for.
Customization is definately a problem. So is the MTA's buying habits. If it would just buy 200 cars per year for the TA, Metro-North and the LIRR, with generally similar components (aside from electric pick-up, motors, and car sizes) we'd all come out ahead. It's hard for companies to stay in business in the years between orders, and you end up with assembly by novices.
Eastern Europe should be in the transit vehicle business for sure. Unlike the U.S., they have a large domestic market, and the wages are lower. The domestic content rules work against them, however.
How does the TAdesign a subway car? Does it have it's own design staff or they just submit a bid and someone designs one. Also, does the TA consult with the maintainers on a design or specs?
TA designs it's own equipment. There is a department called new car engineerng. Theoretically they take maintainence and operating personnel concerns to the drawing board with them. One need only look at an R-68 to see this is not so.
I had a few minutes to look at the excellent MDBF table in the FAQ section. It's pretty easy to see that the Kawasaki R62 fleet is head and shoulders above the rest of the system in MDBF ratings.
Clearly, Kawasaki made a good product here.
But I wonder if there is more to this than just a well designed subway car. Is it possible that the yards that maintain the R62s play a role in the high MDBF this car achieves?
If the yards are playing a role in this - is there something that can be learned that would improve maintenance at all the other yards in the system?
I think these cars are around 15 or so years old. It's surprising that they are not suffering from a mid life crisis.
Don't be mislead. The R-62 owes its MDBF to a lot of hard work by the people at jerome mtce. Shop. The real boost came when they were linked into 5 car units.
Look back at the R-68s. Once the joke of mass transit, Concourse shop and many modifications turned that fleet around. Understand one thing. No car is gonna give you a 100,000 mile MDBF right out of the box.
I suspect Steve is correct in that certain cars have a higher MDBF becasue of the attitude and quality of the workers maintaining them.
It's been suggested that maintenance on the R62s is high quality at the Jerome yard.
Is it possible to employ the same or similar procedures that give the R62 an impressive MDBF in all other yards?
I believe so. The only other yards with one specific type of car is 242nd St and Flushing as far as I know. I think other than pride in the workmanship, there could be that there's no specialized group that will work on soley one car type.
There's a lot of factors here. Demographics, region, individual shop conditions. That includes the condition of the building to the people who run the place.
Certain shops see a lot of senior personnel, because of their proximity to highways or suburbia. Certain shops see more junior men becuase no one wants to work there. An old dungeon like building. Livionia was once that way. Or a Tyrant for a superintendant. 207th Overhaul was a terrible place to work at in the early 80's because of the "Bull Whip". I heard guys retired because of him. Certain titles can only work in certain locations. If you were in one of those then you could'nt run from a manager like that.
Certain fleets have a poorly designed car, or a bad line for reliability. The guys at Concourse Maint. had a rough time because of certain engineering flaws on the R-68's. Now they run a lot better because they overcame those problems. The E runs 24/7. Consequently Steve has a bit of a problem keeping all of them 100%. The #3 only runs part of the time and has a dedicated fleet. Of course their MDBF is higher. It's not a fair comparison.
Good point. Certainly the R-46s have to be doing better now than when they were new.
I wonder if any MDBF records were kept in the olden days, particularly with the BMT standards and Triplexes. It would be nice to find out just how long a Triplex could keep going before breaking down.
They were still a better car out the box than the R62A's which had to have serious reworking in it's mechanical and electrical workings. This is why I have a hard time understanding the TA's decision to give the bulk of the R142 order to Bomabardier which has never had a good reputation in the US to begin with.
Peace
DaShawn
Can you say: "Conflict of interest"?
His name is Peter Stangl, and he once ran the MTA. Now he runs Bombardier.
I've posted my observations about Bombajunk in the past.
That's only the beginning of the conflicts of interest.
Does anyone know of air venting plants and where I could see them?
I know of two one at 39st and Northern BLVD.
The air are sucked down by large fans? How big are they usually?
Do they travel down to the tunnels and stations through air ducts or
pipes? How big are they? Is it possible for a person to fit inside?
At nights (12:00 AM - 6:00 AM) the B runs only from 36th to Coney Island. It would be usless to have a conductor on the train for such a short run with barely any passengers. The TA chose OPTO (one person train operation) for the line. At the time the B ran R-40s. It was impossible to use a train with corner cabs for this. Along comes the Q Line with its R-68As. The Q doesn't run at night, and when it does it has a short run, maybe 1 hr tops. so the TA opted to swap the cars! Was this required? The current roster says the Q runs 17 trains altogether. The b now runs a couple trains at night and and only runs in 4 car units! Was this required? Even with the Q running there would be some left over for the B late night run.
I know for a fact that a few R68A's ran on the N line prior to October 1997, and disappeared when the cars were switched. So I guess they were added to the B as well.
I like the current arrangement. Those R40's really fly down the Brighton express tracks, even though they are the most uncomfortable cars ever built.
Logistically it can be a pain in the butt to make sure the right equipment is in place to go from 10 car regular trains (or 8 car 68's) to 4 car OPTOs. Better to run one car class on the B and leave the lesser equipment for the part time service. Also, politically (perhaps this appeases the people on the West End where everything was an old car (40s and 42s) between the Bs and the Ms. Over on the Brighton line it's broken up the same way. Newer cars on the 24hour service D and older cars on the part-time service Q.
if this is true,then whenever the TA orders new cars, will the Q get it? or how about putting R44 or R46 cars to the Q line?
The Q line will more than likely get the older cars of the fleet because it is a part-time line. When the Q line is sent through the 63rd St tunnel out to Queens Boulevard(as i've seen proposed) it may very well get R-46 equipment because that is what is maintained out at Jamaica Yard. Remember, most of the time a line receives certain equipment because of what cars are maintained in their barn. And it doesn't matter if the cars are stored in two different yards. For example, the F line has it's cars stored in 2 yards, Jamaica Yard and the Coney Island Yard complex("City Yard" or "Av X") is the section of the yard where they are stored, but they are only maintained at Jamaica Yard.
Not including the M line which has a special service due to the Williamsburg Bridge project, the only exceptions to the rule are the B line, which is maintained at Concourse and Coney Island Yard, and the A/C lines which are maintained at Pitkin and 207 Yards.
You are correct about the A/C lines being maintained at both Pitkin and 207th St. This depends on the car contract as R-38st are maintained at 207th St while Pitkin maintains the R-44 and R-32 fleets. The exception are the 10 R-32GE cars. You are also correct that the F is only maintained at Jamaica Yard. However:
1)Concourse only maintains the D's and not the B's.
2)Unless there is another MAJOR fleet reassignment, there are not enough R-46 to suppliment Q service when the 63rd St. connector opens. Best estimate is that 14 additional trains will be needed to provide the same level of Q service once the tunnel opens. That's 112 75-foot cars or 140 60-foot cars. Jamaica's spare factor today is 126 cars. That includes 24 cars/day on inspection + others out for repairs and program maintenance. Talk is that Jamaica might see the R-44s before too long :)
I personally feel that Jamaica shouldn't get the R-44's since they aren't compatible with the R-46's and are less reliable unless the TA has a plan to make them compatible.
The R-44s can still be run in solid trains. Not that they have any choice. And if they do go over to Jamaica, the A line could get some equipment with railfan windows like the slant R-40s or R-42s. I'd even take some more R-32s.
There was a post about LIRR diesels going away. The last ones I saw were two Geeps in charge of 14 coaches heading for the Hamptons one Sunday afternoon on the Montauk branch; I don't remember the date. The last four cars were parlor cars, trailing them was an MP15AC powerpack. I was too far away to get any loco numbers. Yes, they were old and antiquated, but I'll miss them.
Just got back from two weeks in New York and as you can see I finally got on my daughter's computer system, so until September 9 you can get me here. I rode just about all the subways, but I was depressed by my Sea Beach. It is all local, except for three underground stops in Brooklyn and the condition of the tracks are disgusting because there is debris and garbage all over the place. However, the last time I rode on the "N" was Monday and there were cleanup crews all over the above ground (outside the tunnel) stations and it looked a lot cleaner. However, they have to do something about the area between the 86th St. station and Stillwell Avenue. What an eyesore.
No one can tell me they can't make that more presentable. I'll have some more tidbits for you aces out there the next few days. I got the
surprise of my life at one station on the "3" line.
On the MTA website, there is service notice stating that the Marcy Ave station will be closed for the entire weekend. Do anyone know the reason for this?
3TM
Perhaps they are preparing the station for the return to normal service on 8/28. There is a temporary wooden platform that has to be removed.
This a plan that I have come with to solve and end to overcrowding to the Lexinton Avenue Line. I have not decided to make this a A division line or a B/BII division type line. Your input will taken for granted and it will be a great help.
Second Avenue Subway Plan
There are going to be 5 subway lines to serve the Second Avenue Subway Line. We are going to begin with the 1st line. The 1st line begins at Gun Hill Road on Webster Avenue. It will follow the original Third Avenue Elevated Route to 149 Street where instead of staying straight under and going under Willis Avenue it will turn right and continue under Third Avenue and go under the Harlem River. It will make it first stop in Manhattan under east 125 Street where it will meet the other Local line which is the 4th line which we will talk about later. It will make Local stops all through Manhattan. It will proceed along the Second Avenue where it makes a sharp curve on to 7th Street and heads west where it makes another sharp curve onto Avenue C. When it is on Avenue C it will proceed South under the East River right under Adams Street in Brooklyn. It will make a curve later on, onto Bergen Street. It will proceed along Bergen Street until it's terminal on Utica Avenue and Bergen Street.
The Second Line is one of the 3 expresses on the Second Subway Line. It will begin on 233 Street right under Baychester Avenue. As soon as you leave the station it will then a light right curve onto Schieffelin Avenue then it makes another curve onto Eastchester Road. Later on, on Eastchester Road it makes another right curve onto East Tremont Avenue it will proceed along East Tremont Avenue until it makes a left turn onto Metropolitan Avenue. It proceeds along Metropolitan Avenue until it meets with White Plains Road it will then turn south onto White Plains Road. It will go under White Plains Road until it makes a right curve onto Lafayette Avenue. It will go under Lafayette Avenue until it reaches Southern Boulevard where it will turn South right under the 6 line. It will proceed under Southern Boulevard until it reaches East 149th Street it will go west along East 149th Street where it will make a left curve onto St. Ann's Avenue. It will go along St. Ann's Avenue when it will make another right curve onto east 133 Street. It will proceed along E. 133 Street for 6 blocks where it will meet up with the 8 line and enter Manhattan. When it enter Manhattan it will stop on the 6 track East 125 Street Station. After the East 125 Street Station it will begin the fastest journey in the whole MTA. It will skip nine stops. From East 125 Street to East 42 Street going at 70 miles per hour through the tunnels getting from 125 Street to 42 Street in 8 minutes the fastest trip through Manhattan in History. It will then go from East 42 Street to East Broadway in Manhattan skipping another nine stops. In then enters Brooklyn, It makes it's first stop in Brooklyn at Tillary Street then goes express to it next stop Flatbush Avenue then to it's next stop at Utica Avenue. After Utica Avenue it turns on to Utica Avenue and continues south. When it merges with Flatbush Avenue and comes out of the tunnel and goes to the side of the Flatbush Avenue. Then it goes along it's own bridge and terminate at Rockaway Point Boulevard. The total amount of stops is 29 from 233 Street to Rockaway Point Boulevard.
The Second Express is the 3rd line. It runs from the Bay Plaza Shopping Center to the outskirts of the J.F.K Airport where you can be able to transfer to the T.A Monorail. Which will bring you further in to the airport. Your trip will take 35 minutes because there is only 27 Stations. The trip is simple it will go along the Bruckner Expressway until White Plains Road where it will merge with the 2nd line. It will make all of the stops with the 2nd in the Bronx. When it reaches Manhattan it will make all of the express stops and when it enters Brooklyn it will make all of the express stops as well. After it goes through Utica Avenue it goes under Began Street then turns North onto Jamaica Avenue. Then makes a turn onto North/ South Conduit Avenue. Then it enters J.F.K Airport and becomes elevated and joins up with the Monorail where you can get a free transfer.
The next line is the second local it is the 4th line. It will begin its trip at East 125 Street Manhattan at the center of the six tracks East 125 Street Station. It will merge with the 1st lines tracks and become Local. It will go along the route until it passes the East Broadway Station instead of going into Brooklyn. It will go under East Broadway and then make a left curve onto Water Street. It will then go under New York Bay into St.George ferry Terminal a five-mile trip in 5 minutes. After that it will come up and merge with the Staten Island Railroad and continue to Tottenville, which has been renamed to Main Street. There will also be two other services, which are the Staten Island Shuttle, which only serves Staten Island and the Manhattan Local, Staten Island Express that will only run during rush hours.
The Last Line is the last of the 3 expresses it is the 5th Line. It two terminals are Dyre Avenue in the Bronx and Coney Island- Surf Avenue, Brooklyn. The 5th will be a run Express through the Bronx. After Dyre Avenue it become express it goes past Baychester Avenue and Gun Hill Road. To make only two stops along the line at Morris Park and Pehlam Parkway then it seperates from the 5 and becomes a local for 4 stops and when it meets up with the 2nd and 3rd lines it goes express again. In Brooklyn it goes under some roads until it goes under Fort Hamilton Parkway. At the end of the Fort Hamilton Parkway the line turns under 7th Avenue then turns again under Cropsey Avenue, all the way to Coney Island.
I still stand by my idea: Second Avenue Line via 3rd Avenue (the Bronx) terminating at University Avenue (Fordham Road). Connections: 6 local/express at 138th Street (third Avenue) and 2/4/5 at 149th Street (3rd Avenue). This will give #2 and #6 line passengers access to the central bronx or visa versa. Another connection should be made with the D at Fordham Road. This is very important, because, no longer will passengers have to change three times to access this line. Another connection should be made at University Avenue b/t the 4 and this new line (long retail passage way built of course). Passengers will have access to the north west bronx. Besides, express service should be provided (third track elevated line perfered). Meanwhile the D should terminate at Gunhill/White Plain Roads.
Another idea consist of using the "old" boston/NY railroad trackage. Service to Dyre Avenue should be replace by this line.
New truck line along lafayette avenue to the south east bronx should be built as well.
I think that 3 tracks lines are obsolete, all new service should be 2 or 4 tracks. It should also be underground as much as possible, if overground, then better off the street.
Some service may not guarantee 4 track express service. Peak only service.
3TM
So, logically, you can run a peak only service on a four track line but you can't run a bi-directional express on a 3 tracker.
I guess you can but it would probably be cheaper to keep a 3 track line. Maintenance costs and so forth...........
3TM
If Bill Gates is a subway buff and decides to buy New York City as a second home.
( I wish I was just kidding )
[If Bill Gates is a subway buff and decides to buy New York City as a second home.
( I wish I was just kidding )]
Or if Osama Bin Laden car-bombs at least 10 of the 13 public hospitals, thereby freeing up billions for subway construction. (We don't want to be cruel, so let's hope there's sufficient warning for employees to leave the hospitals before the bombs go off. Evacuating the patients isn't an issue, because most of these hospitals don't have any patients despite employing thousands of 1199 members).
(Bomb the public hospitals and get rid of Local 1199).
Little correction. Local 1199 represents workers in the "non-profit" hospitals, not the city hospitals. That's why they don't vigorously oppose privitization.
Who is ripping us off more, City Hospitals or "Non-Profit" hopitals. It used to be City Hospitals, since they got Medicaid AND subsidies. But Post-Rudy, it breaks even -- and cares for patients without insurance. The "non-profit" hospitals dumb those in the city hospitals, despite being tax exempt as "charities."
Deciding the relative merits of city and public hospitals is like being in Poland in 1940 deciding whether it would be better to live under Hitler or Stalin.
Deciding the relative merits of city and public hospitals is like being in Poland in 1940 deciding whether it would be better to live under Hitler or Stalin.
I knew someone who was in exactly that position.
If you were Jewish, definitely under Stalin.
If you weren't Jewish, probably still under Stalin.
That's like choosing between a firing squad and the gas chamber to be executed.
A firing squad, you die in a few seconds. In a gas chamber you suffocate for a few minutes before you're out of your misery.
You know, a cheaper alternative would be for Bill to just buy 8 million computers and give them away to everybody so they can work at home, rendering the whole subway system obsolete. LOL
Made a quickie trip in town today and here some notes/observations:
1. On the way down on NJT saw a string of Jersey Arrows in the old Waldwick coach yard ( all numbered in the 1200 series BTW...) So you Know what That means...
2. The MVMS are INSTALLED, but not yet running, at World Trade Center...right next to the E bumper posts....looks like they should be up and running soon...
3. FINALLY got to ride the L today! Now all I have left is the G (if I EVER get really,really bored)...Had never been on from 8th Ave to Bway Junction, and was surprised how quick it really was..(R42s BTW) In fact made the mistake of taking the A back, and between the wait and the SLOW run along Fulton (R38s, no less!), I wouldnt be surprised if the L isnt as fast as the A from the 14 st area...would kill to know what it was like when the old Multi-sections ran the route...
4. Rode the B to Coney this time..had a pretty fast R68. Coming back on the Q the TO overshot Prospect Park by a foot or so and his conductor gave him a nasty buzz. ( to his defense though, that partic set of 40s seemed to have a nasty set of brakes anyway...
5. Oh yeah! Almost forgot..got one of the few PAS left on PATH withthe nice front seat with the window...COOL!!
8/21/99
Tonight while waiting for the #2 train to take me to Penn Station,at about 10:10P the revenue train slowly lumbers through the station. Since they are older R-21/22 types,when the R-142's replace the redbirds,will the Redbirds in turn replace the present revenue car fleet? At least they'll be air conditioned. There are 2 rail adhesion cars,former redbirds,I know of. Any ideas out there
Bill Newkirk
I'm sure some of the Redbirds will have a lot of time left in work service, since there probably won't be many new A Division cars ordered afor a while after the R-142s arrive.
I still think if B Division is going to be short cars when the 63rd St. tunnel opens, they should equip some of the Redbirds with extenders at the doors and put them into rush hour service on the Eastern Division, freeing up other regular IND/BMT cars for heavier-use lines.
My question is, when are the new B division cars going to be delivered. If they are delivered before 63rd Street opens then there shouldn't be a car shortage if the cars slated for retirement are not retired.
In the last few weeks there were a few long threads titled favorite stations and favorite lines. How 'bout a LEAST FAVORITE STATION THREAD?? I will start it off. The stations I hate the most are the ones that have the express and locals on separate platforms. Murphy's law states that if it doesn't matter which one you take you will ALWAYS pick the wrong one. And I'm getting too old to run up an down the stairs when I hear a train coming. If I have to pick one it will be the 33rd-34th Street Station on the 8th AV IND.
The SARGE-my homepage
The station I hate the most 145 Street and Broadway. Thats the homeless hangout. For Door Holding I dislike Times Square and 59 Street.
I'm forced to agree with Dave on both counts. There is nothing worse than Times Sq, where everyone comes to the platform at the last door of the last car at full speed in a blind spot.
Well, my least favorite stations have go to be 14th Street on the 4/5/6- I don't know, I just don't like something about that station. Essex Street- who ever says this station is not plain creepy is lying. 138th Street- I mean, very few people are ever there and it's depressing. And last but not least, the Bowery- that one should be self-explanatory.
Agreed = Mott Haven (as I prefer to call 138th Street) has to be one of the loneliest stations in the system. I won't get off to photograph there - I took my pictures from the train. Some other Bronx stops that are pretty run down are Brook Avenue (they RUINED that lovely mosaic frieze there - DAMN 'em!), East 143rd Street and East 149th Street.
Essex Street's a little better now that they've put those murals up.
Bowery - that's a whole 'nother story. Hey, if you want to see CREEPY- check out the closed platform at Chambers Street. If that don't give you the creeps, with the fenced-in stairways and enormous leak, nothing will.
Wayne
You know what gave me the creeps? The lower level at 42nd St. For many years, the northern end was used as an underpass between both main platforms before the entire mezzanine was incorporated into the paid fare zone. There were signs on the downtown platform, one of which is at the Transit Museum, which I recall vividly: "For Wash. Hts., the Bronx and Queens trains, use underpass." I used that underpass once in 1968, and even though Aqueduct Specials still used the lower level at the time, it still gave me chills. I took one look down the track through the loose chain-link fence and thought, what was this used for?
I agree with 145/Bway. More skells per capita than any other station I've been through. If that were my home station, I'd take the bus.
Chuck
My least favorite station is 75th Avenue on the Queens IND line. The F runs local to that point and the E is express. After 75th avenue, the F joins the express track before 71st Continental Avenue. The F train always sits at that station waiting for one or two E trains to pass before the F can proceed. Also, 75th Avenue is one of the least utilized stations on the entire line.
I just wait downstairs. If you watch the red zipper things they beep and tell you which track the train is coming on.
Bowling Green is a pain because you have to go down two flights for the fare control, and then up one to the platform. The escalators seldom work; frequently both are coming DOWN! This only applies to the northern end by Battery Place; the southern end, closer to the ferry, is the standard straight-down affair, but it's currently closed for renovations.
96th-Broadway upper end is a similar layout, and very congested at that. It's very frustrating to see your train leaving knowing you have to swipe, go downstairs and then upstairs. I will often walk out of my way to the 93rd Street entrance which only requires a straight two-flight descent.
Does anyone know how long these 30 cars have been assinged to the #6 line? I know the answer is over 31 years, but I would like a more exact date.
Thank You
A question for anybody who purchased Peter Dougherty"s "Tracks of the NYC Subway. Under Radio System in Bibliograhy he has a title of a publication called "Official Guide to DCE Maintenance Shops & Facilities". Anyone out there familiar with this publication and where to obtain a copy? Thanks for any help.
That book was a red 'loose leaf' type book put out sometime around 1992 or so. Each maintenance shop had a brief outline of its operation and character. It also included fleet sizes, facts and directions to each shop. Since that time, there have been numerous attempts to update and re-publish it but things keep changing so fast, it's doubtful that we will see it again until the R-143s are delivered.
Thank you Steve very much for that info.
I have seen the propsed IRT timetables (except for the #7, it wasn't included) and here are the major observations. I also got a very brief look at the work programs too.
A-On the #2 line, the 2 will go local down the west side overnight with an additional 8 minutes of running time.It will begin with the 2327 WPL-FLA. ( I believe that's what I saw) It will return to express with the 0442 WPL-FLA. The times are approximatly the same for beginning and ending of local midnight service from Flatbush as well.
B-There are 4 #3 put-ins from 137th st to New Lots between 0710 and 0820. This has been suggested for quite some time but has been fought politically. This helps greatly on the #1 line because the trains from VC are quite crowded by the time they reach this neck of the woods. There are several intervals that have a crush load by the time they reach 110th st and this slows the railroad down.It's not the quickest having to switch over to 2 track(downtown express) but it alleviates some of the overcrowding. It's also a little easier than turning #1 trains at 137 because the headways are tight to begin with. We'll see how this works. By the way, these 4 jobs sign in at Van Cortlandt Park.
C-The #6 will be coming down local to Brooklyn Bridge overnight. The #4 service will continue to run local at night.
241 St White Plains Crew room already has the New jobs posted. I had time to look at the jobs closely.
No.1 Line-They added AM Jobs from 8:00AM to 9:30AM and maybe a early job too.
No.2 Line- There are more runs that start out of Flatbush on all shifts.
No.3 Line- Like you said 4 jobs that start out of 242 Street then take the train out of 137 Street. They start around 5:30AM.
Also 4 Late PM crews will end at 137 Street around 10PM.
No.4 Line- Added jobs that start at New Lots Ave.
No.5 Line- Added jobs out of Flatbush and New Lots
No.6 Line- Lots of added jobs out of Pelham and 177 Street. There up to Job 243. Thats 43 AM jobs. There some interesting PM Jobs.
One is 3 out of 177 Street and the last trip goes to Dyre Ave.
A better one is the One that Starts at Brooklyn Bridge then to 59 Street. Leave 59 Street to Brooklyn Bridge and then to 177 Street. Then Leave 177 and a Pelham Bay Return.
Also there are more 9HR Jobs and some 10HRS jobs.
Also there are a lot of added late jobs for the PM'S.
There are more 9 Hr jobs for the PM shift for weekdays and Saturdays.
As far as I can tell about the diffrents in Headways.
It looks like the No.6 out of Pelham is running 8 Minutes during the day. Below 177 Street the headway will be 4 Minutes.
This pick is looking great right Now if you like 8 1/2 or 9 HR jobs and those 10HR Jobs.
Thanks for the info Dave. A couple of questions: First, those late P.M jobs on the 3 will discharge at 96st and run lite to 137st yard, correct? Second,will the pick commence on 8-23 or 8-30? One more question, are all the switching jobs being picked? In the B division, they were all about to be picked until the union filed a grievance over the different pay scales. The union won something. I don't know exactly what though.
The Pick selection will start 8/30. Those 4 PM jobs on the No.3 Line will discharge at 96 Street. There may have been one that goes in service to 137 St but I will check it again. Anyway they are only 2 Trips. 148 to New Nots and back to 148. Then 148 to NL then to 96 or 137 St. The train may be layed up at 137 or 240 because you sign out at 242 Street at the new Crew Reporting Center. These jobs are 8 HRS because they are 2 Trips. But they end late around 11PM to Midnight. I didn't look at the Swiching jobs since I don't have a chance in picking it. Now on the No.2,3,4,5,7 Lines are the real Money makers.
Just a few Qustions. Did the #3 amd #5 get span increases? How about 7 exprease service on weekemds?
It looks like a Increse in service for all the lines. Now I can't figure out what kind of Increse service there is on the No.7 since I didn't look that closely at it. The No.6 Line looks like jobs where added on Saturday but not much. But weekdays trains will run 4 Minutes apart below 177 Street. The No.5 has an Increase In service with added runs starting out of Flatbush for the AM Rush Hour. The only bad thing about this is if something goes wrong with a train the Lexington Ave Line will be tied in knots. It looks like Rush Hour all day for the No.6 Line.
If all the switching jobs are being picked, you have a chance of getting one. Switching closed out in the 1900s and that's with the jobs being abruptly closed out.
If i'm not mistaken, the job that signs in at Brooklyn Bridge and goes to 59th ST, that's a deadhead move to go and get the train in the 59th St spur.
The job that starts at Parkchester and ends at Dyre....the train that is laid up in the 59th St spur in the morning (used as a #6 in the PM rush) is a #5 in morning service that drops out at Bowling Green and lays up in the 59th St spur. This train comes down to Bowling Green (if i'm not mistaken) on that last trip as a #6 and then goes up to Dyre as a #5.
There are more Am jobs on the AM at Pelham because the late midnight jobs that used to have put-ins to 125th St may now take the trains to Pelham but just a little later having the jobs start later than before. (at least that's one reason)
Will these "3" trains operate out of Livonia or out of 242 yard?
3TM
The No.3 Trains going to 137 Street will go to 137 Street or 240 Street. No.3 Line crews report or sign out at 242 Street Terminal.
The 3 to 137th St and Broadway:
It sounds like the equipment is coming out of the 1/9 fleet. Should I expect a loss in 1/9 service? Then again, the 3 gets a slight increase.... I'd have to guess having the 1/9 as a Broadway Express would confuse people if the Broadway Express from 242nd St (1 to Bklyn) were to reappear after 40 years.
The Parkchester-Dyre Train is interesting and needs clarification. That train gets laid up in the morning at the 59th St Spur? It doesn't stay there all day does it? Because if it does, I only see nothing but problems on the Lex. The spur is there for a purpose, and that is to turn equipment back. I can recall of one case of a stalled 4 train north of 42nd St which tied everything up. My southbound #5 train ran down the local track and was held at 59th St. The T/O wound up discharging and headed north into the spur. He was fortunate, as a relay operator was available to bring him south, wrong-railing on the northbound track at 59th. For that alone, I wouldn't tie up that spur and instead send that train down to Brooklyn Bridge Yard, as one Pelham train is already stored there during the day. Even though Brooklyn Bridge Yard is only two tracks, I don't think the yard is being used to full capacity. Pelham Bay Dave, LawR-38, any comments?
-Stef
At least some 3's will be 10 cars long......I hope.........
3TM
That's what I think, 3TM.
What's going on at Livonia Av? Are the TA personnel rehabbing the structure down there? What kind of general order are they operating through there?
-Stef
As far as I know, there is the usual summer trackwork on the el. This work goes on through the midday, causing the following reroutes:
3: 148-Utica uses 4 turnaround track at Utica.
4: Woodlawn-Atlantic
S: Shuttle service between Utica and New Lots.
Manhattan bound track is used on the el.
I can hear it now:
This is a Manhattan bound 3 to 137St-City College via the 7Av Express, next stop is 72nd. Please kindly use all available doors. Stand clear of the closing doors please.........
One more tidbit about Livonia. They are still renovating the stairway at Saratoga........
3TM
I assume that the middle track at 59 is not long enough for a train to lay up there????????????
3TM
The 59th St spur is sufficient for 10 car trains. If that wasn't the case, chances are the train wouldn't clear the signal, ultimately fouling up the mainline. The context of the question was if the spur track was going to be used for storage during the day. If so, I would argue for not storing anything there, for the simple reason the track is needed to turn everything around.
Thanks for the info, on the Livonia Av line. I've been that way once, with a train of Lo-Vs on a Museum Excursion all the way into New Lots Yard!!! Now if we could only travel to Linden Yard, that would be an adventure in itself (diesels are a must). Heck, I'd make a day out of travelling the Bay Ridge Line with the any TA equipment out there.
The 3 to 137th St is great. The folks at Jay St might have the right idea. Kill the crowds on the 1/9 in the morning!!!!
-Stef
That's the only reason those 4 #3 trains are coming out of 137, to alleviate the crowds on the #1 line from 137 to 96th. Those trains run in #3 service New Lots-Lenox all day, only returning to 137 to lay up in the evening.
I wonder if one end of the train is going to have a 3 sign and the other end will be a 1 sign like what they did a couple of years ago when the 1 was rerouted to Brooklyn for a couple of weekends????????
That would be nice.
3TM
No, it will be a #3 all around. It's only 4 trains that come out as #3's from 137, go to New Lots, then return to Lenox. These 4 trains will not see 137 until they lay-up in the evening.
Perhaps it would be silly for such a limited service, but wouldn't it make more sense to run the trains down from Van Cortland Park as expresses south of 96, and leave the 137 St trains as #1 ?
(Are the trains from Van Cortland Park going to make stops between 137 and 96, or will they run in the express track?)
All No.1/9 and No.3 Trains will make all stops from 137 Street to 96 Street. At least those 4 Trains coming from 137 Street.
The idea is to help alleviate some of the congestion south of 137. Quite a few #1 trains from VC have a swiging load by the time they get to 116 and 110. With these four trains it will make a dent in the crush load. Platforms at 116, 110 and 103 are quite crowded in the morning.
The trains from VC will run local all the way, the #3 trains will cross from 1 to 2 track and run express to Brooklyn.
Regarding the 3 to 137....there are only 4 trains that come out of there in the morning and three that lay-up in the evening. I'm not sure which fleet they will use the cars from but they are all 62's and 62A's, they can be maintained at either Livonia or 240th Yard.
Regarding the #5 train that lays up at 59th St spur.....yes it sits there all day and comes out for the PM rush. They did this a couple of picks ago and found that it doesn't tie up the spur all that much. Trains can be turned at 42nd St or at 86th Street as well. The reason this particular procedure is used is that the 6 line is short cars for the PM rush and can borrow the #5 train for it's service. The train does eventually make a trip to Bowling Green from Pelham and then returns north as a #5 to lay up at the east.
Well that clears up the confusion. So in essence the spur track can be utilized without chaos on the Lex. I suppose you can turn stuff back at 86th St, but 42nd St might be limited. Soutbound equipment can turn back and take a call-on to enter the station on the northbound end.
Turning northbound trains at 42nd is a little more difficult. Idon't believe that there's any signal protection or 10 car reverse markers.
As for the 3, R62As can memaintained in shops equipped to handle them.
-Stef
I have a question on the scheduling of employees. Do all the employee shifts work on consecutive hours; 8,9,10 hours long? I was wondering how they cover the rush hour schedules. A friend of mine used to drive the X18 Express Bus from Staten Island. Two trips in the morning and two in the evening. He was behind the wheel 6 to 10 in the morning and 3 to 7 in the afternoon. I forget how he explained his hours from 10 to 3. It wasn't a 5 hour lunch. Do they have motormen and conductors on split shifts? Thank you.
I have a question on the scheduling of employees. Do all the employee shifts work on consecutive hours; 8,9,10 hours long? I was wondering how they cover the rush hour schedules. A friend of mine used to drive the X18 Express Bus from Staten Island. Two trips in the morning and two in the evening. He was behind the wheel 6 to 10 in the morning and 3 to 7 in the afternoon. I forget how he explained his hours from 10 to 3. It wasn't a 5 hour lunch. Do they have motormen and conductors on split shifts? Thank you.
I have a question on the scheduling of employees. Do all the employee shifts work on consecutive hours; 8,9,10 hours long? I was wondering how they cover the rush hour schedules. A friend of mine used to drive the X18 Express Bus from Staten Island. Two trips in the morning and two in the evening. He was behind the wheel 6 to 10 in the morning and 3 to 7 in the afternoon. I forget how he explained his hours from 10 to 3. It wasn't a 5 hour lunch. Do they have motormen and conductors on split shifts? Thank you.
Ok for the AM Rush Hour from 5AM to 7:30AM you have Midnight and early AM crews on the road. Then from:7:30AM to 9:00AM you have Midnight crews finishing and more AM shift people report for duty.
For the PM Rush Hour you have AM Crews and PM crews on the road. Mainly from 12PM TO 7PM. So the 2 shifts working together helps out the rush Hours.
Hi there; what is the latest rumor about the tentative date for train service over the bridge, please?
I know there have been rumors about shoddy trackwork delaying the opening, but we are still being told in the B division that the new pick will go into effect 8/29.
My vacation continues and I have not gotten much in the way of information. What i did hear last night (Friday) is this: The B division fleets will be returned to their former configuration over next weekend. In addition, I heard that the tracks o the bridge may need to be ripped up (rumor - not yet fact) which may delay the opening by many months. Watch for a lot of supplimental schedules.
As I said before, signal Department has been working in the Essex Tower wiring back the machine to show track indications and such for the Bridge. If this is any indication it will go into effect 8/29 with the pick, although the service might not go back in until Monday morning the 30th.
It has been a while since I asked this question, but I'll ask it again, EXACTLY which trains on the Montauk Line carry the C3 equipment and the DE engines? Both on Weekdays and Weekends, since I don't know when I'm going.
I'm changing the question-
Exactly what C3s go out to PATCHOGUE, NOT Montauk? I just realized it's too expensive to go to Montauk, and I might opt for fire island instead. =)
There's a train to Babylon which leaves Penn Station at 5:36 p.m., and connects to a bilevel for Patchogue. You'll get into Patchogue around 7:20.
The Babylon-Patchogue Scoots seem to be 100% bi-level lately.
I wonder if the train that arrives at Babylon at 9:02am on weekends is a Bi-Level yet. Last time I was on it, it was still the mungey old diesel coaches - PHOOEY!
Wayne (we HATES the diesel coaches!)
I honestly don't like the old diesel coaches (actually converted electric MUs) either. I will miss riding on the platforms, though, getting a bit of breeze and a little better view of the road than through the scratchy windows.
My wife like the old diesel cars, though. She grew up riding the Paoli Local, and the the old cars seem more like railroading to her. She rode the bi-levels before I did and thought them too smooth and "sealed up."
I loved the old coaches when they had the old seats. (before they put the M-3 type seats in them) They were much more comfortable and with a little elbow grease you could reverse them. I really loved the "old" diesel coaches with the manual doors.(b-4 the MU's) I also will miss the platforms betw. cars with the metal clinking and the train bouncing. Remember the platform on the rear car when they didn't put an engine on the rear. It was great watching the track without putting your nose to glass. I also will miss the platform in the first car behind the locomotive, especially on the LIC line. (Lower Montauk)
I agree with your wife on the bi-levels. Too smooth, too sealed up and much too modern. The only good thing about them is when your downstairs and there's someone on the platform with a short skirt!!!
Hmmmm, interesting. Anyway - if the diesel coaches were in better condition I would probably like them better. Actually, I DO like the ones with the little tube lights down the center (i.e. #2889) as opposed to the everyday flat shades. I just can't stand sitting in a train with no a/c and windows you can't see out of. The end platforms are good for sneaking a quick smoke if the crew isn't watching and the storm door is closed.
Wayne (I know, I shouldn't smoke!)
Actually, I like the lower level because there is less sway down there. The view of the short skirts, hmmmmmmm, a second reason to ride the lower level?
8/22/99
Yes Steve and Jeff, I must also confess to sitting in the lower section for that same reason on the FL-9 bi-levels,but it only happened once !!
This brings up another question. A friend of mine who is an engineer with the LIRR says what happens if by chance you are sitting on the lower level,going through a grade crossing and your car is broadsided by a car or truck. Since you sit lower than on conventional coaches are you more at risk for serious injury or death ?
Bill Newkirk
As a cop for almost 18 years I have handled hundreds
of car accidents where a car was broadsided by
another with very few serious injuries & fewer
deaths. I would think that a railroad car is much
stronger than an automobile or truck (although I
don't really know) so I would think there isn't
too much to worry about. Besides in mostly all
train/motor veh accidents the train broadsided the
motor vehicle. I think there are very few times
when a car or truck hit a train!!
The
SARGE-my homepage
href="http://www.angelfire.com/ny2/sgtjeff/trainbuff
.html">my trainbuff page
But it has happened. I was on Amtrak back in November 1987 when a '68 or '69 Cougar ran into the side of the lead engine at a rural crossing near Ashland, Virginia - one of those crossings with only crossbucks, no lights or gates. The accident occurred about 4 in the morning and delayed our northboundSilver Meteor(or was it the Star- I never can remember which is which) about an hour. I was in the frontmost group of seats in the first occupied coach with two of my children and everyone was crowding over us to see what was going on outside - the train hadn't been going very fast so we were stopped right over the crossing and had a "perfect" view of the activities of the ambulance crew. (The people in the Cougar were alive, at least when they got them loaded into the ambulances, which disappointed at least one Amtrak passenger. Go figure.)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Jeff, what Pct. are you in. Pvt. E-mail is fine for your response.
If you want to go via the Montauk branch, the 8:52 AM from Jamaica is Bi-Levels and the first stop is Babylon.
If yo want to go via the central branch thentake the 2:52 PM from Jamaica. It stops at Mineola and then goes via the central branch to Babylon and then al stops to Patchoque.
Thanks guys! Thanks for the tip that the Babylon-Patchogue scoots are 100% Bi-Level. Looks like the C3s are here to stay and the single level trains are out!
I now ask about the Oyster Bay branch. We might be going to the Teddy Roosevelt House, so I'd like to ask which trains to and from Oyster Bay are Bi-Level (preferably from Jamaica in the morning and toward Jamaica in the evening).
I am trying to convince my parents to take Amtrak from New York Penn to Mystic, CT. Can anyone recommend the ride?
Amtrak doesn't stop in Mystic. The nearest stop is in New London, which is about 10 miles away. I'm not sure what sort of transit is available from the train station, probably you'd be able to find out by calling Mystic Seaport or looking for their Web site.
They do, Peter. They have trains stopping there in the Northbound direction about three or four times per day.
The ride is very scenic and pretty I do recomend it
While you are there get some Mystic Pizza or just rent the movie.
Joe
Last year I took Amtrak to Boston for a conference. The scenes after New Haven are very beautiful. I am not sure about the price, but it is more convenient to ride by train than drive.
If I were you, I would definitely convince them to ride by Amtrak.
Chaohwa
If I were you, would take Metro-North to Stamford or New Haven and then transfer to Amtrak. This is because I HATE NY Penn with a passion.
Or you can take Shore Line East if that stops at Mystic.
Shore Line East stops only at New Haven, Branford, Guilford, Madison, Westbrook, Old Saybrook, and New London.
It is not operated on Saturdays, Sundays, Memorial Day, Independence Day, Labor Day, Thanksgiving Day, Christmas Day, or New Year's Day.
You have to take Amtrak to Mystic.
The fare from NY Penn to Mystic is 35 dollars off-peak, and 43 dollars during peak hours.
The fare from New Haven to Mystic is 18 dollars off-peak, and 22 dollars during peak hours.
Amtrak peak hours are 11AM-11PM Fridays and Sundays.
I don't know the fare from Grand Central to New Haven because it is currently not available on the MTA site.
Just for references.
Chaohwa
I just look up the New Haven Line schedule. The fares from Grand Central to New Haven are:
(1) 15.25 dollars one way peak.
(2) 11.50 dollars one way off-peak.
Chaohwa
Although you would probably have to take a cab from Greenport to Orient Point, a really great alternative would be to take the LIRR to Greenport, then the ferry to New London and a train from New London to Mystic. (only about 7 miles) The LIRR trip to Greenport is a great ride, the Ferry ride is also a relaxing ride, and you can check out the museum at Greenport. Just a suggestion.
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
You can also take the S-92 bus. Visit: Suffolk County Transit. Now, if you have extra time and you don't feel that the schedule for Greenport Trains is convinient for you, you can pick up the 92 at Riverhead on the same line (has more trains) or Bridgehampton, East Hampton, Southampton or Hampton Bays on the Montauk Line. You can also pick up the 92 on any stop between Riverhead and Greenport on the Greenport service, but that would be to no advantage.
Thanks! I know nothing about Suffolk's buses>
I've had to change my handle because of the recent addition of another station on the #5 line to the MVM list. This makes the 5 tied with the D for MVM Supremacy (number of MVM stations along route). The D serves all of it's stations all of the time, while the 5 doesn't. As for the station with MVMs with the most lines, that title now goes to Court Street in Brooklyn, for the first time ever it's not Columbus Circle. Now, visit the site and drop a line if you know of an MVM station not on the list.
Well, I spoke too soon, there are MVMs at Gun Hill Road on the 5 making it the MVM Express, the D is only the nighttime MVM express.
Correction: I when I E-mailed you I said there was one and only one MVM @ Gun Hill Rd on the 5. There is no room for more than one.
There is barely room for one.
Does anyone know which MVM's are selling commemerative cards and which cards they are? So far I already know of GCT MVM's selling "Millennial journeys, 11th century". Does anyone know of any others?
I got Millennial Journeys cards with Visa logos at Court Street. A station agent at Columbus Circle told me on Wednesday that their machines had them as well.
Perhaps the Visa and Amex contracts for these cards doesn't cover the museum cards. Does anyone know where the Jackie Robinson cards without the bank logo were sold? All of mine have the logo and I think that I bought at least one at the museum.
I Know A Few,
1) The window border on the 68 is thicker
2) The main cab door on a 68 is hinged, sliding on a 68A
3) The handrails are stainless steel on the 68, more shine on the 68A
4) The storm drains extend the whole way on a 68, and on a 68A it's only above the doors
5) The side destination signs have smaller letters on the 68
6) The exterior steel is smoother on the 68A
7) The advertisement borders are also thicker on the 68
Got Any More?
68 numbers start with a 2, 68A numbers start with a 5.
68 is made by Westinghouse Amrail and has a rectangular builder's plate, 68A is built by Kawasaki and has a small, parallelogram plate with 1988 or 1989 on it.
A much simpler way is to look at the car number. If it starts with a 2 it's an R68. If it starts with a 5 it's an R68A
even simpler is just looking at the floor. they are 2 different shades of the same color
Simpler than looking at the number? You are joking.
I knew by listening to the braking/propulsion systems years ago and by all the other things as well
What's that red line painted below the doors on some R-68s
They also have a little green sticker at the corner of the car?
The green sticker is easy. That is there to indicate the #1 end of a car. This helps the yardmasters when they are making up trains for service where knowing the position of the #1 cab is critical.
The red line on the threshhold plate has two purposes. In 1997, Concourse shop found that many threshhold plates, (a casting that is quite brittle)were being broken off, and it was thought that it was because of the new fiberglass platform rub boards that were being installed. The old wood ones gave way easier and did not damage the cars. oncourse shop began to paint the edges red in hopes of determining at which stations the cars were striking the platform edge. The other reason was that people were more mindful of the edge and were less likely to trip when boarding.
Speaking of #1 ends, was there any rule about cab positioning when the R-68s were delivered? I rode on a few Q trains in which the first car had the half (presumably #2 end) cab facing out, and must admit the ride was most enjoyable! The view, that is. Of course, this was before the dreaded elimination of field shunting.
Was there a procedure implemented which called for the #1 ends facing out, or was it a case of popular demand from train crews?
To the best of my knowledge, the transverse cabs are required at the conductor's position for revenue service. The transverse cab at the train operator's position is only an accommodation.
When they were new, the #2 cab was used at the conductor's position as well. Most inconvenient.
Question. Why are the new 4 car sets arranged with the numbers the way they are? On the R44/46 it made sense, since the cabs are only in every other car. On the R68s, they all had wide cabs at one end. Why not place the cars in consecutive order, like the R62?
NYCT engineering insisted on the illogical numbering scheme for all B division 4 car units to maintain consistency.
I was wondering if there is any way to connect NJT and Amtrak to Grand Central, so Penn Station can be relegated to being the second-class station it's actually been since 1963.
[connecting Amtrak and New Jersey Transit to Grand Central]
Amtrak trains from points north could serve Grand Central. That in fact was a common arrangement prior to opening the Empire Connection several years ago. There's no way of connecting other Amtrak trains, or any NJT trains, without a massive amount of construction.
One of these days, the LIRR's new dual-mode (DM) locomotives will be accepted and come on-line. Somewhere in the LIRR management, they've probably thought about where to put them first; that is, how to rearrange some schedules to give "one seat rides" to Penn Station to people who now ride diesels and change at Jamaica (or Huntington, Hicksville, Ronkonkoma, Patchogue, Babylon, or Mineola!).
If anyone out there (Andy?) know of definite plans, it would be fun to know. Of course, I'm sure my SubTalk colleagues are full of wishes and speculation, as am I!
I must say, it will be strange indeed to get on the train at Penn Station and "stay on" to Roslyn.
Granted, management would have to change the schedule around to make a one seat ride possible, but how long is it going to take? To get a one seat ride from where I am in diesel territory, I have to go to Ronkonkoma.
I never knew why a one seat ride to Penn is such a big deal. Because a number of electric lines go mostly to Brooklyn there are alot of people who have to change for Penn who don't even use diesels. Also with the easy connections to the "7" Train to Manhattan, diesels to Hunterspoint or LIC can be almost as convenient as going to Penn.
The SARGE-my homepage
Friday Newsday, Tom Prendaghasthad a PR piece in the editorials. He started by shooting down the idea of converting some of the old diesel coaches to carry baggage on the Cannonball. he then concluded by saying that the DE30DMs will be on line by years end. No predictions or pronouncements where.
Why did he shoot down putting baggage cars on the Cannonball?
TP stated safety concerns & the older coaches could not match the safety standards of the C-3s. However, he did not address the possibility of converting the C-1s for 'East End' Baggage Car duties.
I've been seeing these posts, and I'm confused - first there's a DE series and now there's a DM series?
If I'm now mistaken, the LIRR is now using the DE15AC. What's the difference between DE and DM (DM30AC??) ?
I've been seeing these posts, and I'm confused - first there's a DE series and now there's a DM series?
If I'm not mistaken, the LIRR is now using the DE15AC. What's the difference between DE and DM (DM30AC??) ?
(In the previous post, I said If I'm NOW mistaken )
The 2 series of locos are:
400 series DE30AC = Diesel Electric / AC propulsion (diesel-electric)
500 series DE30DM = Diesel Electric / Dual Mode (3rd rail or diesel-electric)
So are you saying that the current DE15ACs DON'T use the third rail?
That's correct.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
it's DE30 - not DE15
That's how they manage to get out to places like Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson or Montauk. None of which are electrified.
There is no such thing as a DE15AC. It is a D30AC. 3000 horsepower total.
Thanks, Steve.
So now I know what the AC and DM difference is. It's kind of impressive for the D30AC to use it's own AC generators to power the train without a third rail! But there must be a switch to Diesel somewhere along the line.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you or vice versa. In a diesel-electric loco, the traction power is derived as follows.
Diesel engine (usually 1,500 to 5,000 HP) will be used to turn a generator or an alternator. The output of this device is used to power the traction motors, lights, heat batteries or HVAC. The diesel power plant in a diesel electric loco is never used to directly power the wheels.
At Seashore we have a "side-rod diesel mechanical locomotive," which we use for shifting and emergencies when we lose power. It has a diesel engine, and a four speed manual transmission (clutch and all!). You drive it just like a bus (:-)
Okay, I understand now. Thanks!
Read my post which I will send shortly...
[ The 2 series of locos are:
400 series DE30AC = Diesel Electric / AC propulsion (diesel-electric)
500 series DE30DM = Diesel Electric / Dual Mode (3rd rail or
diesel-electric) ]
Almost. The Dual mode 500 series are DM30AC -- there's no such thing as a "DE30DM". All of the engines use AC propulsion, the only difference being whether it has the capability of operating under 3rd rail power.
Someone also mentioned "DE15AC" (or something like that). Perhaps you are referring to the Current MP15-AC's that the LIRR has as part of the "classic" fleet. These locos are numbered in the 150-199 range, and are road switchers with a long nose forward, and the cab all the way in the back. Currently, these are running at the west of most "classic" trains. Some of these are able to provide HEP to power the old coaches.
LIRR MP15AC's are 151-172. Only 22 of them were built for LIRR.
I've also seen 'em on MILW (now SOO), SP, and SCL/Family Lines (presumably they're now CSX). Anyone know of other roads that got MP15AC's?
I believe Amtrak also rosters a few MP15s. But these may be second hand from the roads you mention in your last post.
If someone could post the new LIRR roster info for the new locos and bilevels, I'll add it to the roster page on the site.
-Dave
Don't have a complete list but this is how the new equipment is numbered:
400 Series Diesel-Electric Locos (23 units)
500 Series Dual Mode Locos (23? Units)
4000 Series are regular bi-level coaches (odd have bathrooms)(?? Number)
5000 Series are Cab cars (??Number)
You all asked for it - here it is. I've written up a glossary of terms that seem to constantly confuse people around here. Dave has a copy that I hope will appear in the FAQ section soon. In the meanwhile, for those who want an early look, please check out my site at:
home.att.net/~alabianca/
Any comments will be greatly appreciated, either here or privately.
PS - How do I get the link to be active in these postings?
Like this:
Alex's Glossary
Use the "view page source" option in your browser to see how it's done - not that you really need a tutorial, you're doing it correctly on your own page!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
That's because he wrote it with Netscape Composer. I checked the <META> tags.
Ah - I didn't check that, since I normally just struggle along with using HTML directly.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Excellent work!!! Hopefully, Dave will incorporate them into the FAQ's for the site. Great for visitors that are unfamiliar with NYCT or the NY area railway/transit operators.
Excellent! I finally know what SMEE stands for - thanks!
Looks good so far! How about adding AMUE?
I have been trying to get some information on what it takes and what it will cost to set up a speed train in a region like the gulf. Can you help me? Thank you.
When you say "the gulf" what are you referring to? The gulf of mexico? The persian gulf?
Last Monday at Seashore, I picked up a Cedco "New York City Streetcar" calendar for 2000. I think this is the first time they've done this theme, and it is nicely done (though unfortunately printed in Hong Kong, but Cedco is in California, part of the Pacific Rim, so they may feel an obligation to China).
I have a question about the pictures for October and November (which is also on the front cover). For October, the description below the picture says, "It was a common sight in 1905--two cable cars passing on Lexington Avenue at 103rd Street." November has: "This 1896 scene shows Broadway cable car #413 on Lexington Avenue, following the line which ran from Battery to Harlem."
Since Frank Sprague's Richmond demonstration of electric traction was in 1888 or so, hadn't New York converted from cable to electricity fairly quickly? Perhaps there was cable on Lexington Avenue in 1896, but in 1905?
Since Cedco is in San Rafael, just north of San Francisco, maybe they thought the New York three-rail track was cable rather than conduit (there wasn't any conduit on the West Coast, so far as I know).
What are the dates and lines of New York (Manhattan) cable operation?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
My information on New York cable operation comes from the definitive work on cable traction, "The Cable Car in America" by George W. Hilton, Howell-North, Berkeley CA, 1971.
The Third Avenue Railroad had a cable line on 125th Street between the East River and the Hudson, with a branch on Amsterdam Avenue to 187th Street. The 3rd Avenue line extended from Park Row and Broadway, along Park Row, Bowery, and 3rd Avenue to 130th Street. Operation on 125th Street started in 1886; all operation ceased in 1899 with electrification.
The Metropolitan Street Railway operated the Broadway line from the Battery to 59th Street, with a branch on 53rd and Columbus Avenue to 109th Street. The Lexington line branched from Broadway at 23rd Street and ended at 105th Street. Cable operation started in 1893 (very late for cable, since electricity was a proven technology at that point) and ended May 25, 1901. One factoid: cars ran every 15 seconds between Houston and 23rd Streets in rush hours!
Ed, enjoyed meeting you in Philadelphia at the ERA convention. Hope this info helps. George.
Thanks for the NY cable information, George. I suggested to our esteemed moderator that for future ERA (or other) conventions, we might have some kind of a Subtalk identification badge. The Train Collectors Association bulletin board people are doing that--you can print out a badge at home. (With a label, it could even be pre-gummed, and you could just tear off half or a third of the backing each day, which is an old convention trick.)
Following up on the cable and conduit question, other than New York and Washington (and London in the UK), what other cities had conduit?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Interesting question. I consulted the nifty "Fares, Please!" by John Anderson Miller, a paperback published by Dover, New York, 1960. The East Cleveland Street Railway was electrified in 1884 by inventors Edward Bentley and Walter Knight using third rail in an underground conduit. I quote: "This was the first commercial electric railway in the United States, and was viewed with awe by everyone who saw it." Although successful, the operation was discontinued after one year. So, the honor goes to East Cleveland, not Richmond VA. Also, this same book contains an illustration of the Budapest conduit system. The slot was not centered between the rails; it was adjacent to a running rail. There's no mention of Budapest in the text.
If the 42nd Street (New York) light rail ever becomes a reality, would conduit be considered? (I doubt it.) The overhead would have to be severed for the annual Macy's parade, though.
nventors Edward Bentley and Walter Knight using third rail in an underground conduit. I quote: "This
was the first commercial electric railway in the United States, and was viewed with awe by
everyone who saw it." Although successful, the operation was discontinued after one year. So, the
honor goes to East Cleveland, not Richmond VA. Also, this same book contains an illustration of the
Budapest conduit system. The slot was not centered between the rails; it was adjacent to a running
It's a common occurrence that people "discover" that Frank
Sprague's Richmond, VA installation was not the first trolley
line. That has never been claimed by any serious historical text.
In fact, prior to the opening of the Richmond line in 1888,
there were about a dozen electric street railways, going back to
an experimental system in Europe in 1878. In this country, several
municipalities claim various "firsts", such as Appleton Wisconsin
and Montgomery Alabama.
The Richmond system was the first commercially successful system.
By that, I mean that its operation was financially more cost-
effective than horse-powered street railways. The Montgomery
system was doing fairly well a year earlier, in 1887, but then
the power plant burned down and it shut down for a few years.
Sprague is generally credited with putting together all of the pieces
needed for a successful and profitable electric street railway
system, including aspects of power distribution, power collection,
and motor mounting.
The success of the Richmond system is generally regarded as the
dawn of the trolley era. A year later, in 1889, there were over
150 trolley systems in operation or under construction.
My hometown, South Bend, stakes a claim as being the first city to have an electric trolley line. A copper wire was strung along Michigan St. above an existing horsecar line in 1886, I believe, and voila! It met with opposition almost immediately, and horsecars were back on the scene soon thereafter. Streetcars did come back for good a year or two later, and remained a fixture until 1940, when a Laguardia-like mentality of "streetcars are old-fashioned" took hold. Trackwork was ripped up in 1946, although my father says he remembers seeing track remnants in 1949. I remember one street, Madison Ave., which still had a cobblestone surface along one stretch, and the middle portion was offset from the rest of the pavement. Another section of Madison Ave. had asphalt paving on the outer portions, with bare cobblestones in the middle where the tracks were.
You brought up an interesting question. They had the balloons in the Macy's Parade during the Trolley days. Just what DID they do at the cross streets that had trolleys??
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
There were no overhead wires in that part of Manhattan - power collection was via the conduit between the rails.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There were no overhead wires in Manhattan, period. A city ordinance prohibited that.
Steve B - 8AVEXP writes,
> There were no overhead wires in Manhattan, period. A city ordinance
> prohibited that.
That's not quite accurate--there were overhead wires at the ends of the Brooklyn, Williamsburg, and Queensborough Bridges (and the Manhattan Bridge for a time, also) for service coming over the bridges. I think there was some limited overhead in upper Manhattan for lines from The Bronx terminating in Manhattan.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The QB bridge had dual conduit and overhead wire, the former for
the Manhattan cars that turned around in Queens, and the latter for
the Queens cars that turned around in the underground loop in
Manhattan.
There were locations along the Harlem River in Manahttan where
car lines continuing into the Bronx transitioned from overhead
to conduit and vice versa. These were called "plow pits".
A man was stationed in the pit, and the car would park over it.
The man would mount the plow under the car and then the car would
procede into the conduit section, lower the pole, and throw the
dual knife switches to switch over power collection. Reverse
operation for going north into the Bronx.
Any reason why the subways or LIRR never used conduits?? Seems like it would be alot safer than third rails.
You know how much trouble LIRR has in the snow now with third
rail? Imagine if the third rail were buried in a slot between
the rails!
The conduit system was a kluge. It was derived from the cable
car system of street railway construction in having a buried
trough between the rails supported periodically by cast iron
yokes set into the pavement.
Incidentally, with conduit operation, there were two buried
power rails, positive and negative, and the system was floating.
This minimized the disruption when one of the rails got grounded
out, which happened frequently.
I always thought they should put the protective wood all the way around the third rail with just a slot for the train's shoe.
[I always thought they should put the protective wood all the way around the third rail with just a slot for the train's shoe.]
I see you are one of the citizens that advocates "we need to protect everyone from things that they should know not to mess with".
Does someone with a sane mind climb a power pole and grasp wires, or mess with transformers? Then why should the burden be on the electric railroads to cover their third rails?
For years the Chicago, Aurora & Elgin operated third rail trains to the western suburbs of Chicago using "exposed" third rail - no coverboard. Normal people knew enough to stay out of the track area and away from the third rail. Mothers and fathers warned young children it was a danger. Of course, some people and stray dogs did indeed get electrocuted. Could an operation such as this operate today, I think not, because there would be too many lawsuits.
But, the CTA operates some sections of their 'L' on the ground level using "exposed" third rail. Some years back, an inebriated non-English speaking person did the unthinkable, and urinated on the third rail along the Ravenswood Line - with fatal results. Of course there was a lawsuit filed. Of course the court found for the plaintif; however, an appeals court overturned the judgment.
The CA&E quit finally in 1959 and the power to the third rail was turned off. The Laurel Line, running between Scranton and Wilkes Barre in upstate Pennsylvania, also used the exposed third rail system, but it quit in 1950. There are a few more examples of lines using exposed third rail; however, without research I can’t name the rest.
For the record, the MBTA rapid transit trains use the exposed third rail system. To change that system and the Chicago 'L' system, would mean changing the third rail pick-up system on all rolling stock. This would require large amounts of money that either transit agency would have to find - i.e. from the taxpayers.
When do we stop asking the government, financed by the public purse, to protect ourselves when responsible people should know better?
One last question, if people don’t trespass on the right-of-way, the question of ‘protected’ third rail is a mute point, isn’t it?
Responsible debate welcomed.
Jim K.
Chicago
It seems that fewer and fewer people are using common sense these days. Little wonder, the way it's been essentially legislated out of existence.
Jeff Rosen writes, "Any reason why the subways or LIRR never used conduits?? Seems like it would be a lot safer than third rails."
I think the biggest problem with using conduit for subway, commuter, or heavy rail would be an inability to operate at high speeds--the possibility of something getting into the opening or the plow getting stuck is too strong.
I don't know of any high-speed installation where something like the conduit plow can be found on the equipment. Even high-speed "monorails" straddle or hang from multiple wheels so they are not dependent on a part that looks like a miniature farm plow.
Cable cars never ran at speed, either. Anybody recall what the speed was on the 9th Avenue El or on the Brooklyn Bridge in cable days?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
If I recall correctly, the fastest cable railways ran the cable at 12 mph. San Francisco cable car lines run at 9 mph.
-- Ed Sachs
I stand corrected. That was too general a statement on my part.
Last year I walked (Weedwacked) the entire LIRR Rockaway Branch. I know that there is interest in the line especially from people here on SubTalk. I plan on doing it again (When the growth dies down). I am looking at a Sunday in October. If there is anyone interested in Walking this "forgotten spur" let me know and I'll focus in on an exact date.
How many miles is the walk total?
8/22/99
I walked entire branch with a friend of mine from where it branchs of the LIRR main line to the Woodhaven station and back 9 years ago. When we returned to the car we took mileage reading from start to finish tracing the exact route paralelling on Crossbay and Woodhaven Blvd's. The ROUNDTRIP was 4.6 miles or 2.3 miles one way. When we got to the Long Island City branch,the wood trestle was burned out so we had to walk down the embankment,cross the tracks and take a sort of roundabout route. There was no foilage on the trees so photography was great,weather was eraly spring and cool and the footwear was suited for the journey. Bring lots a film and was out for that speeding AIRTRAIN to JFK !!!
Bill Newkirk
Just in case anyone is interested I found a great book all about the LIRR Rockaway Line called "Change at Ozone Park". It cost $18.95 at the Court St Transit Museum. It has many pictures of all the stations including alot of pictures of LIRR cars on the present day IND tracks & stations. It even has a schedule of the loop from when the 2 present day Rockaway Lines (The IND Subway & the Far Rock branch from Valley Stream) were connected.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
[ Last year I walked (Weedwacked) the entire LIRR Rockaway Branch. ]
I've been meaning to go and take a look for myself, but can you relate to us the condition of the tunnel portion of the flyover junction near Rego Park (White Pot). This is where the westbound Rockaway beach branch goes under the 4 tracks of the mainline.
The grading around the area you can see very clearly from the mainline, but since I'm usually _on_ a train at this point, I can't see below the tracks. Is it intact? Filled in? Boarded up?
Thanks!
Having grown up a few blocks away, I spent many a summer afternoon playing there. The underpass is intact and the track is too. The roadbed has mostly dust instead of ballast after all thesee years. The walls are expectedly covered with scrawl, and the homeless have been known to camp out there. There is the rubble on the North side of the ROW a few hundred feet East. That was a brick shanty. In 1984 my friend Todd discovered a sledge hammer, and used it on the shanty. Look and see what is left.
[ Having grown up a few blocks away, I spent many a summer afternoon
playing there. The underpass is intact and the track is too. ]
That's interesting. There doesn't seem to be any track on either side of the Underpass, though, if I recall correctly. I wonder why they'd leave it in there? Maybe just because the clearances made mechanized removal more difficult.
Lest there be no confusion, I'm a friend of TTPFKAMR46 too, but not that Todd. I grew up in The Bronx (4), Howard Beach (HH), and Roslyn Heights (OB).
First, to the best of my (limited) knowledge, I don't beleive that the LIRR ever referred tot this area as WhitePot Junction. I have it on reasonable authority that it was referred to as The WhitePot Underjump.
This area, WhitePot Junction or Underjump, frequently pops up in the Newsday editorials as an alternative to the AirTrain concept. Most of the editorials extol the virtues of re-opening this ROW for a rail link to JFK as opposed to creating a new ROW down the Van Wyck.
The problem is that the AirTrain concept provides a one seat ride to JFK for virtually nobody while the WhitePot alternative would provide a one seat ride for many. As suggested in the most recent editorial, the ro-opened Rockaway line could be easily linked to the Lower Level of Grand Central terminal too. Clearly, this could be done much faster than the Air Train alternative. The question is why is this obvious solution being overlooked. Perhaps the answer lies in the politics that divide NY-MTA and the PortAuthority. Perhaps if NYC took over the NY airports, then the MTA could take the lead in te solution to the problem.
That closely resembles the plan that I posted a few months ago as an alternative to the present Airtrain idea. The only new construction would just be a 1 track spur off the present Rockaway line from just north of the Howard Beach IND station. The line would continue along the old Montaulk LIRR until it reaches the junction with the un-electrified LI City branch and run non-stop to a junction with the LIRR mainline near Hunts Point. It could then run to Penn station or Grand Central, when the LIRR connection finally gets built. The only thing that would need to be done would be the need to clean up and rebuild the old Montaulk ROW and the LIC branch would have to be electrified. NIMBY problems would be limited to those who live along the abandoned Montaulk ROW, who seem to be under the mistaken belief that all of their porches which are supported by present structure means that they now own that ROW.
The Montauk ROW to HUNTERS Point is not abandoned, it's used by 2 or 3 trains a day, but not abandoned. Now, assuming it was, any encroachment of the ROW by nearby residents must be treated as trespassing and willful destruction of property and punishable by fine and jail.
[The Montauk ROW to HUNTERS Point is not abandoned, it's used by 2 or 3 trains a day]
I two thought it was ababdoned when the LIRR announced that the stations West of Jamaica on it were being closed.
Mr t__:^)
[re Montauk line in Queens]
There are a few trains a day that use the Montauk line from Jamaica to Long Island City. The number is less than the number of L.I.C. trains, as some of them travel via Hunterspoint and the Borden Avenue grade crossing. Trains using the Montauk line make no stops between Jamaica and Long Island City now that the intermediate stations have been closed. This route is also used for freight.
I was under that impression as well. I never thought it was abandoned, but I thought all passenger service terminated when the stations along it were closed. I know it is still used for freight, as I see many freight trains layed up behind Metro Mall near the Metropolitian BMT terminal.
How many people ride this line each day? Couldn't it be configured so that freight, passenger and airport service could be accomodated?
I am referring to the abandoned part of what now is the IND Rockaway line. I may have given it the wrong name, but is most certainly not used, as it is covered in weeds and the tracks are torn up. Many people who have houses along it (my cousin included) have either used part of it to expan their backyards or have used is a personal garbage dump.
(Neighbors taking over Rockaway Line and dumping).
Maybe that could solve the NIMBY problem. The LIRR could sue for dumping and trespassing, charging tens of thousands to the miscreants. In order to get out of paying, perhaps they would agree that reactivating the line is not so bad.
If the neighbors squat on the property long enough and the LIRR doesn't try to get them off, couldn't they just claim it under adverse possession, and force the city to buy it back from them? Is that what the Queens Pols are up to?
When the TA bought the line from the LIRR, They bought it from: Rockaway Park. to Far Rockaway and Hammels wye to Rego Park. The ownership of the portion from Liberty Ave. (Ozone Park) to Rego Park, Which would not be used for Subway service was leased back to the LIRR for service from Penn Sta. to Hamilton Beack (Ozone Park after 1955) When the LIRR quit running trains on the line in 1962 they had no obligation to do anything to the line after that. I know that the MTA now runs the LIRR and TA but, The Rockaway Beach line is a TA not LIRR property and the TA is responsible for its "Upkeep". Someone should remind the TA that they in fact own the line. What gets me is that the TA has done NOTHING to see that residents don't extend their property onto the ROW or even build on it. I've walked the line a few times and only recall people pushing backyard fences a few feet back towards the ROW. There are only two places where the ROW is in fact "Built on". Both being parking lots they wouldnt be too hard to remove. Right off Atlantic Ave. (Woodhaven Jct. Sta.) A school bus operator expanded their lot onto the ROW. The first time I was there was March 1997 and their lot ended at a fence at the extreme south end of the station platforms. On my next visit in January 1998 the last 75 or so feet of the platforms were demolished along with part of some platform buildings (Ticket office, Waiting room?). I wonder if this is legal? Some people might say it is because nobody would take a chance to build on TA property like that. BUT If the section they are on is in fact their own and they bought it they have expanded and demolishied property (The station) That most likely would still belong to the TA. If anyone has info on this please let me know what the story is on this is. As for the other lot they only poured blacktop right over the tracks (Easily removable) And its only for about 30-50 feet. The school bus company Tore out the tracks and many switches up there. I don't know if they tore down "Ozone" tower. It is gone and was in the area where their lot is but it may have come down long ago. Sorry for the long post. If anyone has more info please add........Mark W.
P.S.
I still want to do a walk of this line in October. If anyone is interested let me know.
Sorry about the WHO in the title.....Mark
Doesn't the City own all the old LIRR Rockaway right-of-way? As I recall the City bought it after the fire across the Bay, which was before the TA was forced on the city.
Does the TA (or the MTA, for that matter) "own" anything at all, for that matter?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Here is a direct quote from the book "Change At Ozone Park" by Herbert George (bought at the Transit Museum on Court Street) on pg 67. (abbreviations are mine) "The sale of the Rockaway Beach Branch and the portion of the Far Rock. Branch within the city limits to the NYC Transit System was consumated on Sept. 5, 1952 for $8,500,000. At the time the portions of branches still to be operated by the LIRR were leased back to it." (End book quote)Also, according to the book, the orig plan was for it to connect with the Queens Blvd lines (E&F) and not the Euclid Av "A" line. I guess thats why the city (T.A.) bought the Whole line.
Something else I found interesting in that book. On pg 66 is an early picture (1910's) of a car from the Rock. line that looks just like a Low-V (or High-V) without the center door. According to the book they were planning to have joint IRT/LIRR service in the early part of the century. Maybe thats the reason for the layout of the Flatbush/Atlantic Station!!
Funny, I didn't realize it until now. I mentioned a little earlier that the Rockaway Line used Low-V type cars in the early part of the century. I guess thats why the whole Rockaway and the Bklyn LIRR lines had high platforms from the get-go!!! There are no stairs on that train in the picture!!!
Funny, I didn't realize it until now. I mentioned a
little earlier that the Rockaway Line used Low-V
type cars in the early part of the century. I guess
thats why the whole Rockaway and the Bklyn LIRR
lines had high platforms from the get-go!!! There
are no steps on that train in the picture!!!
Hi Folks I hope someone has answer to this question. WHAT caused the MAY 8 1950 fire on that bridge to begin the end of this once great line? If ANYONE knows please contact me. Thank You.
Acarding to change at ozone park it ewas a carelessly tossed cigarette
As an afterthought, I guess the IND wanted to take over the line from the begining. Isn't that why they put in a "Tower"(Shell) at 63rd Drive and turnouts between 67th Ave. and 63rd Dr.?
Yes, thats right. According to the book "change At Ozone Park" the LIRR was negotiating to sell the branch as far back as 1924, even before the IND. When they built the IND a flying junction and a tower were in the plans for 63rd Drive, but the plans fell through. According to the book "destination signs labeled Rockaway Park in the form of ceramic tiles were cemented into some of the walls of Queens Lines stations." The PRR, owner of the LIRR always thought the line a liability and the trestle fire gave them an excuse to sell it.
BTW, according to a timetable in the book, Rockaway Park to Penn only took 45 minutes. I wonder how long the subway takes! It was only 22 min. to Penn from Ozone Park which wasn't too far from where the IND turns onto those tracks from Liberty Av.
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
Oyster Bay Train(just kidding)
That was part of the never-built Winfield Spur. It also included the Roosevelt Ave. terminal station.
I was under the impression that it was the Montaulk line, but now some people say thats what the diesel line that goes to LIC is called. So which is it?
[ I was under the impression that it was the Montaulk line, but now some
people say thats what the diesel line that goes to LIC is called. So
which is it? ]
The abandoned line from White Pot (Rego Park) to roughly liberty junction is the former Rockaway Beach branch.
The Montauk ROW to HUNTERS Point is not abandoned, it's used by 2 or 3 trains a day, but not abandoned. Now, assuming it was, any encroachment of the ROW by nearby residents must be treated as trespassing and willful destruction of public property and punishable by fine and jail.
Maybe I'm wrong but isn't the Long Is City Branch and the Montauk ROW one and the same??? I thought the LIC Line is The Montauk Line.
Most of the diesels/dbl deckers go to Hunter's Point for folks to transfer to the subway. Some other trains take a different route to LIC for transfer to the Q69 Queens Surface bus or the ferry across the East River.
The problem withthe Airtrain concept seems to be that the NIMBYs in Glendale and Woodhaven seem to have more political power than the NIMBYs along the Van Wyck monorail route.
So, we'll have to deal with a half baked solution to JFK access...
The problems are the NIMBYs, the cost, and the restrictions on the use of the Passenger Facility Charge.
As for the NIMBYs, it just shows the power of a few cranky longtime white residents to trump anyone, even a lot of cranky longtime white residents. Does anyone doubt that if you held a referendum of people living in the broader neighborhoods as to whether they wanted a direct LIRR (not subway) ride to Grand Central, the answer would be yes?
The cost I have heard to rebuild the line is $800 million to WhitePot junction. You mean the underpass is already there and it STILL costs $800 million just to reset the embankment and put in track, third rail and stations? ARRRGH!
The passenger facility charge can only be used for service that can only be used by airport customers. The Port Authority agreed to put a gun to its own head.
In addition there is the LIRR vs. TA, railroad regulation issue. That one could be solved by keeping the services separate, since there is room for four tracks until the subway diverges. Rockaway passengers would presumably have to transfer across a platform at Aquaduct and pay an extra fare to ride the LIRR to GCT.
In addition to the airport, LIRR service would do a lot for the Rockaways, Woodhaven, Glendale and Rego Park (except for the few NIMBYS), and would give the city something for the billions in taxes it will pay to build the LIRR to GCT connection.
Part of what is making the reconstruction so expensive is that so much of it has been allowed to deteriorate. You've got bridges and trestles to rebuild, new (expensive) concrete-tie roadbeds to lay, and a couple hundred thousand trees to clear and chip. Plus you have to connect it to the existing LIRR (adjusting the signals etc.) probably at both White Pot AND Woodhaven Junctions (a crossover switch needed there, more for a flyunder). Some stations have simply vanished (Parkville, Brooklyn Manor, Rego Park) and have to be rebuilt from scratch.
$800M is a stiff price tag, but well worth it, the NIMBYs and their pointed little heads nonwithstanding.
Wayne
I think that in this case, NIMBY is likely a small issue. More likely, the Port Authority wants its trains at its airports. If the City/State took over JFK ala Guilliani, then the City/State could likely run its trains to the plane.
As for NIMBY, the people of Glendale and Woodhaven would most likely be practical. The ROW is already there. Do you think they'd perfer an abandoned strip through their neighborhood, where trash is dumped, homeless congregate and kids get drunk OR where a strip of land that's maintained and where a train passes every 1/2 hour?? Sounds like a no-brainer to me...
(Sounds like a no brainer). Unfortunately, some of the people in these neighborhoods have no brains. And when you hold a public hearing, they are the only ones who show up. That's why I think a referendum is a good idea for investments like these. Normal people show up to vote, and would vote yes.
Actually you'd also have to buck the MTA philosophy of 'once closed and abandoned, always closed and abandoned.' I can't think of any other instance where closed trackways, or even stations, were once closed and then rehabilitated and reopened.
Some, like Intervale Avenue and Glen Street (LIRR) have been saved from the guillotine, but if they'd been closed, you wouldn't see them again.
It's a shame because both the old LIRR Rockaway line and the Bay Ridge line would be very convenient and useful routes, whether by commuter train or subway.
[I can't think of any other instance where closed trackways, or even stations, were once closed and then rehabilitated and reopened.]
How about the Aqueduct Racetrack platform on the A train?
Was the Aqueduct Raceway platform closed for a number of years?
[Was the Aqueduct Raceway platform closed for a number of years?]
Yes.
I believe - but I'm not certain - that the platform was closed when the extra-fare Aqueduct specials from the lower level of 42nd Street ended in the early 1980s (it was only used, of course, on the return trips). I don't know why it was reopened a few years ago ... surely it wasn't because horse racing had become so popular!
What I was told, on a Transit Museum trip, was that it was reopened at the request of racetrack management, to reduce congestion at the bus area and to reduce the number of people walking unsafely in other areas.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Also the Big A was closed a couple of years when they rebuilt it.
The A line to the Rockaways was abandoned by the LIRR - but that was pre-MTA
As long as the referendum is on the ballot during a general election, preferably in a presidential election year. Otherwise the turnout is very low, and the well organized cranks can tip the election.
The exception, of course, was the plan to put the Yankees Stadium referendum on the ballot to improve voter turnout to harm Pataki (it was pataki, wasn't it??). But - if I have this story right - this was an off year election, so the idea was to increase the turnout from a pretty low baseline. And I think it is safe to say that a referendum involving Steinbrenner's team would evoke an unusally high amount of interest from all over the city.
Even though it didn't work, it was a creative plan.
It's not so much a NIMBY matter as a money matter. The funding
for the AirTrain project is to be taken from the Passenger
Facility Charge fees which the Port Authority collects by tacking
on $3 to every ticket going through its airports. The FAA says
you can only use the money for airport projects. It was a stretch
getting them to agree that a rail line that went several miles
outside of the airport was an airport project. They would not allow
PFC money to be used on a project that isn't exclusively for
airport customers. So, the PA can't put any stops along the way
because then the route could be used to get from say Jamaica Station
to Atlantic Avenue. I guess that's only fair since otherwise you'd
be diverting a tax on air travel to other purposes.
Personally, I think by using this financing model, the PA is giving
itself the shaft, since, according to their own figures, they'll be
using the next 20 years worth of PFC fees to pay for it.
Lighting up the old Whitepot underjump/Rockaway was not originally
considered because the original plan was to keep on going up the
Van Wyck and continue up to LGA via the GCP. Thankfully, that
part of the plan got shot down.
The abandoned right-of-way hasn't been maintained in many decades.
Essentially, you have the land, and everything else needs to be
thrown away. Just because there are some rotting ties and rail
there doesn't mean you'll be able to run service. You'd need
to rip everything up, dig out a bunch of soil which might be
chemically contaminated, replace the concrete embankment, and
probably replace or significantly overhaul several bridges where
the line passes over the street below. THe $800 million pricetag
that Larry L. quoted is not unreasonable in light of this.
Something happened on the 101 Media line, looked like it was right at 69th st. One set of trucks completely left the rails and the streetcar swung around sideways. Shuttle busess were pressed into use on the 101 Media and 102 Sharon Hill lines. I saw this on the 6 o'clock news. I'll watch Fox news at 10 to get more details.
Vandelism has been suspected at this time!
Anybody else hear anything?
Chuck Greene
Travelling north on the Metroliner yesterday, I noticed a trolley yard directly adjacent to the ROW. Seemed like there were a few PCCs there, including some which looked like they sported MBTA livery.
Sad sight also in Wilmington where it seemed like some old Metroliner cars have been reduced to work motors.
That was the Elmwood Yard, along the Route 36 trolley.
From what I hear, the car didn't receive too much damage. Every day they park over a switch........but someone threw the switch, so half went one way and half the other.
I wonder who threw the switch when the car was halfway over it?
Does that little red building at the end control anything? I knew in the old days it was 2 stories high and controlled all the switches
when the terminal had stub ends, not like the loop it has today.
Appreciate any feedback on this!
Chuck Greene
As far as I know, the small building doesn't contain anything that would affect the switch. The switch is hand-thrown and, as many times as I've seen it, it's never been locked. At that end of the platform, it's close to the small shelter which is usually populated by operators who are laying over as well as a supervisor or two, so the switch usually has lots of eyes on it.
Not too much has been in the media on this. TV reports on Sunday noted that it was an act of vandalism but newspaper reports on Monday had SEPTA spokespersons saying no comment. Of course, the Channel 6 reports, usually on the mark, had the routes "101 Media and 202 (sic) Sharon Hill" lines being bussed until the investigation was completed.
The cars are usually travelling slowly in this area, since they must catch a traffic signal to cross the West Chester Pike/Victory Avenue intersection which is immediately out of the terminal area. From the pictures on the news, it appeared to be car 111 (in the new paint scheme, yet!) and the only apparent damage was a stricken line pole which was leaning slightly. What would be of greater interest to me is exactly how many of the "dozen or so" passengers taken to area hospitals were actually on the car at the time of the accident. This being SEPTA, it is well known that people actually try to board a car or bus which has been in an accident in order to file a claim! Besides, from the looks of things, it didn't appear that the accident was all that serious. I don't mean to downplay any real injuries that may have occurred, but the news did show a couple of people being taken away in stretchers. Unless the incident was much worse than it appeared, it would be interesting to determine how these folks were hurt.
The switch that was split diverges to the track which leads to the El shops, where the K cars are cared for these days. There are usually two or three cars on the Victory Ave edge of the shop lead in off-peak periods, so conceivably the car could have struck a parked car head on. The news photos didn't show this very clearly.
Thanks for the reply and your detailed explanation. I really didn't think the shed controlled the switch, and as you said, it is "hand
thrown". You are right about people getting hurt, they call being in a transit accident "the Septa lottery". It's like you won a lot of free cash at someone's expense!
Thanks again, Bob
Chuck Greene
[I wonder who threw the switch when the car was halfway over it?]
Hello Chuck -
All "hand-thrown" switches are equipped with a device that is engaged to "hold" the switch points (track) in place. As a hand-thrown switch is controlled by a lever, if the lever is not secured, it can by the weight of the car passing over it, reverse back to its original position.
Most swtiches are equipped with a latch that can lock by varying devices. Terms I've heard for "latching a switch" are either a dog or a keeper. I learned these terms hanging around Reading Company railroaders. I'm sure there are others.
This brings us to how the car split the switch. I think I heard that "two small boys" are under suspicion. If the vandals indeed removed or disengaged the dog or keeper, then the switch could reverse itself.
- Jim K.
Chicago
The initial news reports noted that this was an act of vandalism. Given the location of the switch, under many watchful eyes, this is probably unlikely. The timing of the throwing of the switch would also have to have been very precise. I doubt vandals would be that patient or cunning (but I could be wrong).
News reports since then have downplayed the vandal spin and put the situation into a "further investigation" mode. It probably was a true accident more than anything else.
Service was off both 101 and 102 for the duration of Sunday but apparently back to normal Monday morning.
The newspaper today gave a report that they went to a 10 year old 's
house and he confessed to throwing the switch. Septa police reported that several youths were seen in the area playing around the tracks at the time of the accident. I guess the front trucks went straight and the rear trucks diverged to the right following the "layup and access" spur to the yards. I for one think the youth should be
given the most appropriate warning for his age group, or something
a little stronger!
Chuck Greene
I hadn't heard (I've been away for a week). I'm a little surprised given all the eyes that usually "watch" that location. I don't think I've ever pulled a camera out there and not been questioned by an operator, supervisor, etc about what I was doing, was I looking for anything special, etc (usually helpful suggestions or curiosity - not authoritative at all). Go figure...
What transit services are available to the Nassau Hub shopping area? How can I get there by LIBus, LIRR or both?
I've done Roosevelt field by bus before. Not awful, but not great. Forget the LIRR there. I think there *was* a shuttle bus around the area, but I'm not sure anymore.
Depends on where you're going. The area is very big. You can get a bus to Roosevelt Field from Mineola or Hempstead. (Mineola recommended) To the Roosevelt Raceway Shopping & The Source there are buses from Hempstead. However its about a half mile walk from Westbury Station. To the Nassau Coliseum/Ramada Inn area you can take the N-79 from Hempstead. I know there are several buses on Stewart Av, but ya gotta call LI Bus (MSBA) for info.
First of all, I think the current addition will almost do nothing about the current overcrowding problem on the East Side.
Perhaps, if I had my way the configuration would be as follows:
This will be four tracks, one local and one express each direction.
Stations for the first section, 125th to 63rd would be as follows:
125th (Express)
116th
110th
96th (Express)
86th
77th
68th (Express)
Note that there is no stop on 63rd. I want to save possibly 61st as a possible station between 63rd/Lex and the 59th/60th/Lex for transfer purposes. In that case, transfer passageways can be built on the 62nd St exit of that station as well as the 60th St side, with a normal exit at 61st.
For stations below 63rd (if that is even going to be built)....
X-Fer stops are Express by default, otherwise local stops
They would be:
61st (X-fers to 63rd/Lex and 59th/60th Lex via passageways @ 62nd and 60th exits)
52nd (X-fers to E/F and 6 via passageway)
42nd (X-fers to GCT S/4/5/6/7 via passageway)
34th
23rd
14th (X-fer to L @ 3rd Ave station)
St Marks
Houston (X-Fer to F)
After Houston, this will join the Chrystie St branch, and the four tracks will become two, thus making the line local south of Houston.
This would make the next stop @ Grand (B,D,Q). As for a transfer passageway, I am willing to support such a measure to the otherwise spooky and quiet Bowery (J/M/Z) station.
After 125th Street, tracks will go under a tunnel, going to 138th - 3rd Ave to connect with #6. Next after that will be 149th - 3rd Ave to connect with #2 and #5. Then the lines split into two seperate 4-track services, with a branch following the old 3rd Ave el, with stops at:
163rd (local)
168th (local)
Claremont Parkway (local)
East Tremont Av (local)
180th/181st (local)
Fordham Plaza (Express)
After Fordham Plaza, another split occurs and all tracks become local. First branch of that will make stops at:
Bedford Park Blvd
205th (possible D connection?)
Gun Hill Rd + White Plains (2/5 connection).
After Gun Hill Rd, it will go under Gun Hill Rd and make stops at:
Boston Rd
Seymour Ave (Connection to #5 Dyre Line)
Bartow Ave
before terminating @ Co-op City Shopping Center.
The western branch of 3rd Ave will go West after Fordham Plaza and stop at:
Morris/Townsend Aves with connections to B,D and 4
Kingsbridge Rd @ University Ave
231st/Broadway connecting to 1/9
236th @ Riverdale Ave
246th @ Riverdale Ave
254th @ Riverdale Ave
261st/Mt St Vincent College (Terminal)
The eastern branch of the line splitting @ 149th - 3rd should go under 149th and make a stop at Prospect Ave/Southern Blvd connecting with #6. Then the line will go under Bruckner Expwy and then stop @ Hunts Point Ave (possible #6 transfer again?), going under Bruckner Blvd and then stopping @ Rosedale Ave (local), White Plains Rd (express), Castle Hill Ave (local), Zerega Ave (local), Randall Ave (local), Sampson Ave (local) before terminating @ Harding Ave.
Another possible offshoot is to shoot off White Plains Rd, and make the branch local all the way to Dyre Ave. stops will consist of White Plains Rd @ 177th St/Westchester (#6 again), Tremont Ave and Morris Park Ave before joining up the #5 @ Morris Park station, going express stopping only @ Pelham Parkway and terminating at Dyre Ave as someone suggested in an earlier post.
Well gotta run now. I will post again later today.
Nick C
Not that your idea doesn't make sense...I'm just wondering who you think would print the money for it.
wait, so does this mean that it's going to be IRT? If so, this will mean that this line can't merge into 63Street and Chrystie Street, which I am not sure MTA wants
This will not be IRT.
The only time it will probably merge with IRT is the portion on the White Plains Rd branch going toward Dyre Ave via the #5. Did the tunnels (especially the one at Pelham Pkwy) get modified in 1941 to IRT standards. If so, then the White Plains Road branch of this line will need to indirectly connect with with #5 at Morris Park station.
As for the Bruckner group, it does not merge with #6 tunnels at any place along the line.
3rd Ave-149th station and 3rd Ave-138th stations for the 2nd Ave group of lines will have its own seperate platform, probably on the lower level, hence with island platforms at those stations, providing crossunders to 3rd Ave-149th 2/5 platforms. There will be crossunders between the island platforms on the 2nd Ave platforms at 3/149.
I repeat, all 2nd Ave lines are to be the B division, not IRT!
Nick C
"The only time it will probably merge with IRT is the portion on the White Plains Rd branch going toward Dyre Ave via the #5.
Did the tunnels (especially the one at Pelham Pkwy) get modified in 1941 to IRT standards. If so, then the White Plains Road
branch of this line will need to indirectly connect with with #5 at Morris Park station."
The 5 route into Dyre Avenue should be eliminated and replace with the new second Avenue line route. Besides, the route to 242nd Street and White Plains shall could get better service.
"As for the Bruckner group, it does not merge with #6 tunnels at any place along the line."
I do not propose the MTA to convert the 6 (Pelham Park) into IND/BMT standards. It will affect the running time on the 2nd Avenue above 125th Street where the line will separate (a proposal) into three sections. For instance, I propose a third Avenue segment which will terminate at University Avenue and Fordham Road. Second, a "old" NY/Boston segment right-of-way into Dyre Avenue. And three, a completely new segment along Lafayette Avenue.
"I repeat, all 2nd Ave lines are to be the B division, not IRT!"
I agree, Nick C!
I have designed my own version of a Lafayette Ave line as well.
149St-3Av
Trinity Av-156St
Prospect Av-156St
Southern Blvd-LongwoodAv (6)
Hunts Point Av-Lafayette Av*
Colgate Ave-Lafayette Av
Elder Ave-Lafayette Av
Morrison Ave-Lafayette Av
Soundview/Rosedale Avs-Lafayette Av
White Plains Rd-Lafayette Av*
Castle Hill Av-Lafayette Av
Brush Av-Lafayette Av
Balcolm Av-Lafayette Av
E.Tremont Av-Lafayette Av*
Dean Av-Lafayette Av
*:Express Stops (Peak Direction Only)
3 Track Line
Comments?
3TM
While we're planning the hypothetical here . . .
I'm assuming that if there's any express service on the line at all, it will only be as far as the 63rd street connection. Below that I imagine that if anything is built, it would be local.
Since there's quite a bit of housing going up in the East Village and it's such a black hole when it comes to the subway, I think it would be ideal if the 2nd ave line veered east similar to what the el did, if not further.
If the subway is going to be a deep bore project then it should head east at some point after 23rd. Have it meet the 1st ave station of the L at 1st ave. It could then continue further east in a slow cure that would bring it to Avenue A near Thompkins Square Park. Since this is already the focal point of the neighborhood, it would be a logical place for a subway station. It would even make living on Ave. D relatively convenient compared to what it is now. The curve would bring the subway back to the 1st ave end of the Houston St. F station for a transfer.
Another option would be to keep the line far east and give at least one station on the lower east side that's east of the F, J or M.
Then continue south to the financial district along one of the many routes proposed before this.
What is a diesel hydrylic? Is the engine used to turn what type of pumps?
Do diesels also use direct drives where the engine turns the wheels through a transmission like a bus?
Do diesels also use direct drives where the engine turns the wheels through a transmission like a bus?
Yes, these do exist, under the name of diesel-mechanical. This technology is largely restricted to small locomotives, such as shunters and MOW stock.
CH
A diesel hydraulic engine has a diesel prime mover that generates power to the wheels through the use of a fluid drive transmission (i.e. torque converter) in a way similar to a bus or car - though much more heavy duty.
Southern Pacific and one or two other railroads did some experiments in the early 1960s with hydraulic drive. They worked with a German company named Krauss Maffei to develop a diesel hydraulic locomotive. From what I hear, it was a failure.
Diesel hydraulic has been tried to a greater extent in Europe. But I'm not sure what degree of success they've had in Europe.
One example of a successful working diesel hydraulic here in the US would be the Budd RDC. The RDC uses a hydraulic transmission that allows for a start in fluid drive mode and a shift to direct drive at a speed somewhere above 40MPH.
The Budd RDC successor - the SPV 2000 used a GM 8V92 engine and transmission similar to automatic transmission for buses. It had acceleration advantages over the RDC because of the 5 speed automatic transmission but failed in areas outside of the hydraulic transmission
due to poor design.
Greetings,
For those who don't keep an eye on the What's New page, I put up a bunch of new stuff in the past few days.
The biggest addition is a full BART Station-by-Station Guide, text by David Vartanoff and edited by me, with probably 150 photographs by Eric Haas to illustrate. This is truly a massive piece of work similar to our line-by-line guides to the New York subway.
Still in San Francisco, a new Guide to the MUNI Metro, with a lot of new photos by Eric Haas. We need a volunteer to write some accompanying text to go along with this. Drop me a line if you think you can help.
For you San Francisco trolley buffs, I started posting a collection of PCC photographs by Roberta Hill. 39 are up so far with about 100 to go!
A page of Brooklyn PCCs from Joe Testagrose.
I added Alex L.'s Subway Glossary to the FAQ. If you have additions/changes, please EMAIL them to me or use the Feedback form.
Don't forget to check the Page Updates by Date listing to see which pages receive even minor changes.
Enjoy!
Dave
I have a question that probably should be geared to train operatoers. There is always a lot of talk about how slow New York subway trains are. In theory if a operater has green signals down the line especially say on the express tracks, can't the train operater move the train as fast as he would like within reason as long as he obeys all the signals? Or are the signals set up so this can not happen? It would seem that if you get green signals you could move the trains at a pretty good clip. Or am I on the wrong track with this?
There are posted speed limites on all tracks. They have always been posted speed limites well I use the term always as in before Speedometers and the Train Operator (TO) was always to know his speed. There is a way to tell distance by the signal numbers I think.
The MAS (Max Allow Speed) has been reduced recently and the bitching is the ENFORCEMENT of speed limits by install Grade Timers that enforce speed via signal timing and Wheel Detectors that actualy check the speed of the train.
All of this is explained better than I can do here on the site, even pictures of the speed limit signs.
Others here will explain better and more accuratly, I just like to bitgh myself when we talk about SPEED in RAPID transit here in NYC.
When operating under clear signals, there are still speed limits
in effect. Little yellow signs that say, e.g. "36 Miles"
give the speed limit. There is no mechanical enforcement
as with timers, but lately more and more of these signs have
been popping up in strange places. Along with the sign often
comes a beakie with a radar gun! Not that it all matters much,
because the only equipment that can easily violate a 36 mile
speed restriction is non-revenue :)
Remember that 36 is your example. 20 is mine. Between Jay and Hoyt that is the limit. I'm sure trains can do more than that, don't you? It doesn't take much effort to violate speed limits anywhere you go, especially on downgrades. 36 sounds like one of the restrictions on the Queens Blvd corridor. I wish more would pay attention to these posted speed signs as my job as a rep would be a hell of a lot easier, as well as some T/Os getting a little wealthier. I wonder if anyone knows that on that nice roaring express southbound into Euclid the speed is only 20. Now thats a speed trap!
Hello all,
I'll be away from 8/24/1999 to 9/7/1999 and won't have access to Email or the Web in that time. I'm leaving the site up, of course, but there won't be anyone around to keep an eye on it or fix it if it breaks or goes down. So, if you log on one day and SubTalk isn't responding, fear not, i'll fix it when I return on 9/7/1999.
See you in Amsterdam, Paris, and London!
-Dave
Just to give you an update---NO, I have not fallen off the edge of the earth--I'm still here--at least in spirit.
Now, to the task at hand------The central portion of the unopened Green Line WILL be opening on Sept. 18th---(Wayne, time to update the site again)---Along with that, the "Green Line Shuttle" that ran between Greenbelt & Farragut North on the Red Line will make its final run on the 17th. (Personally, I think they should keep the shuttle after the opening and just label the route w/ another color). In other news, the WMATA approved the study of placing a new station at New York Avenue on the Red Line (Between Union Station & Rhode Is. Ave.) along with an approved alignment of the Blue Line east of Addison Road to a new terminus at "Largo Town Center" (with one intermediate station at "Summerfield" just inside the Beltway)--They also approved another feasibility study of a line branching off the Orange Line at West Falls Church and heading out to Dulles (this has long been a desire of Metro Planners)--Pretty much, the closest thing to reality is the Blue Line extension, all they're waiting on is funding---it is already part of the Prince George's County Master Plan---It just needed to be adopted into the "Adopted Regional Metro Plan"----Until next time----signing off---p.s.---
Where is EVERYONE ELSE getting the money to exand their transit systems. Is New York City the only place where transportation is such a low priority, and the process is such an obstructionist mess, that nothing can get built?
I'd like to see all the transit experts from around the country make a list of all the rail transit extensions/stations that have opened/will open between 1/1/90 and 12/12/99. Lets compare that with New York.
Where is EVERYONE ELSE getting the money to exand their transit systems. Is New York City the only place where transportation is such a low priority, and the process is such an obstructionist mess, that nothing can get built?]
Yeah, but think of all the wonderful new hospitals that New York has gotten. Of course, there aren't enough patients to fill the hosptials, but it keeps 1199 and their allies on the Upper West Side happy.
Here's a start. And this doesn't even include lines on which construction started but isn't finished (Salt Lake City, Hudson/Bergen, Newark Subway to Belleville, etc).
900714 LA Blue line opens
900922 Washington DC red line to wheaton
910400 California - San Jose - system completion
910511 Washington green line u-street to gallery place
910615 Washington blue line to van dorn
911228 Washington green line to anacostia
920100 California - CalTrain (purchase by govt. maybe shouldn't count)
921000 California - LA Metrolink San Bernadino, Santa Clarita, Ventura
921229 Atlanta Marta exensions to doraville
930130 LA Red line opens
930221 CTA - connection bt Dan Ryan and State St - new "Red" line
930600 California - LA Metrolink Riverside
930626 Atlanta Marta extended to indian creek
931031 CTA - orange line to Midway
931211 Washington green line to greenbelt
940300 California - LA Metrolink San Diego
940526 Miami - brickell/omni peoplemover opens
950000 Baltimore light rail initial operating segment
950000 Baltimore metro subway ext. to Johns Hopkins
950812 LA green line opens
951000 California - LA Metrolink Orange County
951000 Denver - Light Rail
960000 California - Bart to Pittsburg/Bay Point
960608 Atlanta Marta extended to dunwoody
960610 New Jersey - Midtown Direct/Kearny Connection
960614 Dallas DART light rail
960713 LA red line to Wiltshire
960819 Metra North Central line opens
961200 Dallas DART Trinity Express dallas-irving,Tx
970000 California - Altamont Commuter Express
970000 Baltimore - extensions to Penn station and BWI
970100 Dallas Dart light rail extended
970531 Dallas Dart light rail extended
970628 Washington blue line to franconia
980000 California - Bart to Dublin/Pleasanton
980000 California - SF Muni Metro Extension
980000 Portland OR. Westside light rail
980725 Washington Red line to glenmont
980814 New Orleans - Riverfront streetcar line opens
980900 California - Sacramento - extension to Mather Field
981026 Boston - MBTA commuter expansion to Newburyport
990612 California Red lines to Hollywood
990000 Washington green line center portion
Dallas McKinney Ave.
New Jersey - NJT to Hackettstown
New York - Syracuse On Track extensions
QUESTION ? subway construction in salt lake city UTAH ???
also i have been taking lots of pictures of the new
LOS ANGELES RED LINE SUBWAY BLUE AND GREEN TROLLEYS
i would like to send you phptos of these trains & stations
the red line LOS ANGELES SUBWAY TO NOWHERE... is just as boring
as M.A.R.T.A. in atlanta or BART in san francisco .!!!!
NO RAIL FAN WINDOWS !!!!!!
MY favorite subway photography film is KODAK gold # 400.
WHAT IS YOUR FAVORITE FILMS ????
thank you for this wonderful site SALAAM ALLAH NYC 1951 !!!
> subway construction in salt lake city UTAH ???
That was a list of *rail* construction, not particularly subways. SLC is building a light rail as part of their Winter Olympics hosting.
I am starting to work on a section of Los Angeles transit. I have a bunch of Red Line photos in the queue. If you'd like to contribute Green & Blue line photos, scan 'em (24 bit, around 800x600 is a good rule of thumb), and a little writeup/captions for each. You can email them to me directly or drop me an email to make other arrangements.
-Dave
[Here's a start. And this doesn't even include lines on which construction started but isn't finished (Salt Lake City, Hudson/Bergen, Newark Subway to Belleville, etc).]
If it's any consolation, at least there's some construction in the New York metro area, even though it doesn't involve the subway.
Denver's light rail line began operations on October 7, 1994. The public was allowed to ride for free that weekend; regular paying revenue service began on Monday, October 10. Demonstration runs were given in August by invitation; I attended one on August 20.
Service proved to be so popular that six additional LRVs were ordered within weeks, and several bus routes which had been converted to feeders were rerouted downtown because of overcrowded trains. Park'n'Ride spaces have been added at all lots, and even these are packed.
The new 8.9-mile, 5 station extension along the Santa Fe corridor is on schedule for its grand opening next July. I for one can't wait!
Steve -
Will you be able to commute using the new extension?
What do you think the chances are of the SE corridor getting built?
I have a feeling it will be quite a while before there is any sort of rail transit up here in Boulder.
Unfortunately, no, I won't be able to commute via the new extension, but the Mineral Ave. terminal is only a few miles from where I live, and will come in handy when going downtown. The Platte River Valley spur will be great for sports fans and Elitch's customers. It should be extended past Union Station to Coors Field.
IMHO, the SE corridor should be top priority. It would be up and running right now if voters had approved the light rail proposal back in 1980. I-25 is in desperate need of widening; it just plain wasn't designed to handle the volume of traffic it sees today. Gov. Owens supports both measures.
Anyone notice another city curiously missing from this list? I guess whatever funding problems NYC's got are speading.
Philly?
Of course.
Although I'm not so sure if it's a matter of funds as it
is a transit agency more concerned with bringing more
transit to the auto-laden suburbs than to areas of the
city that either desparately need it or would benefit the
city(like taking more cars or maybe even busses off the
road).
Anything new SEPTA has done recently in the way of
extensions of lines and such has been almost always with
the Regional Rail(here's a thought, SEPTA, drop your
fares).
By the way, for the point of completeness on that list I posted last week, when did the center city tunnel open?
I'm going to find the answer in my junkpile of a room. I'm pretty sure it was the early 80's.
Here are some other projects completed in the 1990s:
St. Louis Metrolink light rail (1993)
MBTA commuter rail on two Old Colony branches (1997)
Memphis Main St. trolley (1993?) plus riverfront extension
San Diego North line extension past Qualcomm Stadium (1997 or '98?)
So we have two lists: all the stuff the MTA promised in 1968 and did not deliver, and all the stuff that has been delivered elsewhere in the U.S.
How about showing up at the hearing and running through those two lists? When is that hearing anyway?
QUESTION: the MTA built part of the LIRR connection as part of the 63rd St connection to the Queens Line. Does it also plan to a) finish the complete 63rd St/2nd interchange as part of the LIRR connection?
Or does it plan to b) leave it unfinished, leading to the need for zillions in additional construction and massive disruption to affluent and influential Long Islanders to restart the project at a later date?
And, if the answer is b), how much more could it cost to run the 2nd Avenue down a couple of more stops to 34th as originally planned for Phase I? This would allow Bronx/Queens/Manhattan residents to get to the east side of Midtown without packing onto the Lex at 59th or 51st.
The hearing is at MTA headquarters on Madison Ave., September 15, at 6.00PM. The usual procedure at these meetings is that people can sign up to speak, and then each is called in turn and given a few minutes. Their comments are recorded as part of the transcript of the hearing.
I believe the upper level of the 63rd St. tunnel has the bellmouths in place for the Second Ave. connections. I think the upper and lower levels can be worked on independently. I don't think the LIRR access project will have any funds allocated for the 2nd Ave. project.
My guess is that the MTA is proposing the minimum length for the 2nd Ave. subway so that they can have a negotiating position when they get pressure for a full-length line. Thus they can have the option of splitting the difference if they have to and offering to go to 42nd or 34th Street. I suspect that they want to do the project in stages and they do not want to commit to the full line at this time.
Yes, the bellmouths for the 2nd Ave. line are in place in the 63rd St. tunnel and are plainly visible from the railfan window.
Look, the city had a deal when the MTA was formed. It gave up 1/3 of the TBTA surplus (now 1/2) and got a plan that included the LIRR connection AND the Second Ave. subway, inter alia (to quote JB Bredin et al). I say they should go forward with the deal. Or give the city and its transit system 100 percent of the TBTA surplus.
But I don't agree that you have to build the Second Ave to mitigate the impact of more suburbanites switching to the Lex at GCT. You just program the GCT subway metrocard readers to not accept the discounted joint LIRR/subway ticket. Those in walking distance of GCT would go there. Those going to the West Side or Downtown could save a buck by continuing to go to Penn Station. Moreover, by divering some MetroNorth trains to Penn, and imposing the same fare policy, switching to the Lex at GCT might even go down.
As part of this deal, I'd like to see the LIRR Rockway line reactivated, more LIRR stations in Eastern Queens, three East Bronx Metro North stations on the New Haven Line to Penn via Hell Gate line (City Island, Coop City, Morris Park), and a couple of Upper West Side stations in the Hudson Line to Penn via Spuyten Duyvil route -- for second homeowners going out and those going to Licoln Center going in. Now, that would be something the City could not complain about.
And, while they're at it, they should reactivate the NY Central line down the Westside from Penn Station and run LRVs on it to a ramp at its end and then down Greenwich Street to the WTC.
[As part of this deal, I'd like to see ... a couple of Upper West Side stations in the Hudson Line to Penn via Spuyten Duyvil route -- for second homeowners going out and those going to Lincoln Center going in.]
Most Upper West Siders wouldn't care about a train line - they'd rather see more parking garages for their limousines. On the other hand, if you wanted to get their enthusiastic support behind new stations in their neighborhood, just tell them that the stations are shelters for homeless ex-con drug addicts with AIDS.
As an upper west sider (albeit one who has no personal limousine and generally shares your views about my neighbors), I can inform you that the upper west siders are only willing to support the station/shelters in other peoples neighborhoods.
Seriously, though, I don't think that there's much of a market for upper west side stations on Metro North. The location of the tracks below Riverside Park would make the stations rather inaccessible for most. Running the Hudson line through Morris Heights probably does more for the development above it than it would do for the upper west side.
Also, Hudson line passengers coming to the upper west side can transfer at Marble Hill for the 1/9 which stop right along Broadway every 8-10 blocks. I can only assume that MN stations would be at least two miles apart (maybe Lincoln Center, Columbia, 168th Street?), so most passengers would still have quite a way to go from those stations.
Chuck
Metro North is hot to serve Manhattanites traveling to their second homes (extensions to Wassaic and Rhinecliff et al), and the West Side has plenty of those. Also, some people in Riverside South might hop on to Penn and change trains, rather than pack on at 72nd. But the main idea of running the trains would be for Hudson Line riders traveling Downtown or to Midtown west of 6th to transfer at Penn, not Grand Central.
Metro North is hot to serve Manhattanites traveling to their second homes (extensions to Wassaic and Rhinecliff et al), and the West Side has plenty of those.
What?? How can this be? City people owning expensive property in the "rich" suburbs? Stop teasing me, Larry. Everyone knows suburbanites are filthy rich.
"Suburanites are filthy rich." Only compared with those living in most city neighborhoods. Compared with Manhattan, EVERYONE is poor. The gap between Manhattan and the rest of the world gets more stunning with each years' data.
To take that a step further, its not the suburbs that are rich, its Manhattan, since most the rich people in the suburbs are those who work in or have other economic links to Manhattan. The incomes of those who commute to Manhattan are even higher than those who live there.
Most of Brooklyn and Queens is another matter.
lets cater to the rich bitchs... seems like the right thing get them outta the limos and onto public transit... sure....
I think the stations on the Hell Gate line should be at Pelham Manor (in Westchester County), City Island Road (summer service with bus shuttle to Orchard Beach), Co-op City, Eastchester Road (for Jacobi Hospital et al.), Unionport Road (for Parkchester; I think Morris Park station was a few blocks to the east), and Hunts Point Avenue (for connections with the 6). With connections or through service beyond New Rochelle, you would get a lot of reverse commuters too.
For the West Side Metro North, possible stations are around West 59th Street (a developing area), West 125th Street, and maybe Dyckman Street.
How far uptown does the 2nd ave tunnel go? What ever it is, it should go up to at least 96th street.
There are two sections in East Harlem and, according to the response to my post, the interchange with the 63rd St crosstown is mostly built. Nothing was done from 96th to 63rd.
Note: the MTA might not want to build south of 63rd because of the disruption of crosstown traffic between Queens/the FDR and the center of Midtown. All the more reason to hook up the 63rd St tunnel to a lower section, so a Queens line service could run down to East Midtown, and Queens residents would be something for their trouble.
The results of the MESA study Environmental Impact Statement are available in the reference sections of the libraries in Manhattan, plus the Fordham library in the Bronx. It's a huge three volume work, but it has lots of details, including drawings of the track layouts of the Second Ave. subway and the Lower East Side light rail line.
The sections done in the 1970s are 99th to 105th St and 110th to 120th Street. The new plan is to branch off the existing tunnel at 116th St. and run to a new deep-level station at 125th and Lexington. The stub under Second Ave. to 120th St. will be used for storage tracks. There will also be turnouts at 63rd and Second Ave. to allow for future extension to the south.
I was just down in Atlanta last week. While there I read an article in the Tuesday, August 17th Atlanta Constitution regarding extension of MARTA rail into Dekalb county. According to the article MARTA is having an terrible time trying to build extensions on its rail lines.
MARTA had approximately 5 feasibility studies and they have abandoned all but one study because of neighborhood objections and even that one may be in jeopardy.
Maybe you can get a copy of the atricle on the internet.
It's a race thing in Atlanta -- the subway is seen as bringing Blacks into your neighborhood. They call MARTA "moving Africans rapidly through Atlanta, and the river that divides DeKalb and Fulton Counties the moat.
In the past, we've had that problem in New York too, especially in Queens. SW Queens residents fought the extension of the subway in the 1960s. The race thing seems to be dying or moving out, but the class thing is still there. That's why I think LIRR extensions are a surer bet in Queens than subway extensions.
>It's a race thing in Atlanta -- the subway is seen as bringing Blacks >into your neighborhood. They call
>MARTA "moving Africans rapidly through Atlanta, and the river that >divides DeKalb and Fulton Counties the moat.
Same thing in DC with WMATA: that's why there's not Blue/Orange line stop in Georgetown, even though the subway runs right under M Street. Originally, the high-priced merchants were worried that people of color would use public transportation to come to the neighborhood and do bad things. Now, of course, people of color still come to the neighborhood (don't do bad things, or at least not any more so than whites), the difference is that they just drive in, making parking impossible, driving away potential shoppers to suburban malls with giant parking garages and dedicated subway stops.
Skip S. Topp
"That's why I think LIRR extensions are a surer bet in Queens than subway extensions."
That is actually very on point with the MARTA discussion, because the big idea now in metro Atlanta is commuter rail. Georgia has already chartered a commuter rail study and a Georgia Regional Transportation Authority. I guess that, just as with LIRR vs. subway, commuter rail is seen as a more acceptable alternative to MARTA extensions. Which seems ridiculous to me considering that MARTA already exists and extends out from the city. All else being equal (that is, that the same suburban areas are served whether commuter rail or MARTA extensions are used), one unified rail network is better than two separate ones.
I agree with you 100% and just to piggyback on what you have said about LIRR extensions, that is why residents of the Rockaways have been suffering for years with 1.5 to 2 hour commute to Mid-town Manhattan because residents of Queens have successfully fought the reopening of the old Rockaway Branch of the LIRR which travels through neighborhoods such as Woodhaven, Richmond Hill and Glendale. This is more direct route to Mid-town and would cut the commute in half.
Also, Atlanta is another one of those towns (like LA,Denver,etc..)that would rather choke in their own exhaust fumes than ride mass transit. They build buildings like New York, they try so hard to be a southern NY, but it will never be another NY until they realize what made (and makes) NY great and able to support such a HUGE workforce..
In a way, it's comforting to know people someplace else besides Brooklyn are having trouble making a connection at DeKalb.
Hey, that was a good one.
Unfortunately, what got axed was the new Blue/Yellow stop between National Airport and Braddock Road. For those New Yorkers who don't know the context, a _huge_ bix-box shoping mall was just erected on the promise that a subway stop would be built (the surface ROW runs right behind the mall). Now, the station's been cut -- and since the mall has opened, traffic on U.S. Rt. 1 has more than doubled, with no possibility of road expansion. Their latest proposal (as of yesteray)? A streetcar!
Skip S. Topp
I will be in Washington DC on October 4 and October 5 at which time I will photograph the new stations and complete the picture-taking at the stations I missed on August 27-28 1998. Then we scan it all and send it to Dave, sometime on or before October 15, 1999.
Wayne
Stations need to be photographed (have none at all):
Dupont Circle
Capitol South
Federal Center SW
Foggy Bottom-GWU
Pentagon City
Arlington Cem
Van Ness-UDC
Waterfront-SEU
Navy_Yard
Anacostia
Georgia Avenue-Petworth
Columbia Heights/Adams-Morgan
Stations which need better pictures or only have one:
Pentagon
Archives-Navy Mem'l
Medical Centre
Bethesda
Tenleytown-AU
Shaw-Howard Univ
Mt Vernon Sq-UDC
McPherson Square
Virginia Square-GMU
Capitol Heights
Benning Road
Judiciary Square
Wheaton
Forest Glen
Van Dorn Street
Wayne: you might find yourself bored silly... while the Metro is a masterpiece of civil engineering, many stations are _exactly_ identical to each other. There's no abandoned stations or trackage, no past platform extensions, just different signs. You can save yourself a lot of trouble by sticking to the elevated and surface stations, and the transfer stations, which are the most interesting. (Also, be sure not to miss Anacostia).
Skip S. Topp
Does anybody know why Marcy Ave station is in the process of closing this weekend?
3TM
Best guess - they have to remove the false platform that was installed for the WI illy-B closing, so that NORMAL service can resume on Monday the 30th.
Why do the brakes squeek if there is no dynamic braking? Is it the
material of the shoe? With modern tech. there is no way of stopping
a train without dynamic braking without the wheels making noise?
Friction gives off energy in the form of heat and noise. I'll leave the specifics of subway car brakes to the experts, but the basics of the noise issue can be summed up this way: the car wheels are steel and there are metallic particles in the brake shoes (or, in some rail applications, the brake shoes are metal). Metal on metal makes noise, not unlike that of fingernails on a chalkboard. Hence the squealing you hear. The same principle is at work when you hear the squealing of the flanges against the rail when the train goes around a bend.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Actually, don't dynamic brakes squeal less, since the motors take over some of the work of stopping the train?
Dynamic brakes do have a whine of their own. It's a distinctive sound, but not very obnoxious, in my opinion. I haven't noticed any brake squeal at all on WMATA's trains or Philly's M-4 trains, which both have dynamic braking.
Yes, there's definately less squeal with dynamics since the energy is being dissipated through the traction motors (and ultimately the resistor grids) rather than through friction - no metal-on-metal to screech at us. There's also the added benefit of less steel dust being generated, which means less crap to foul up other components on the cars and also the tunnels and stations. But dissipating the energy through a resistor grid rather than sending it back into the third rail with regenerative braking means more heat in the tunnels than even friction brakes generate.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ through a resistor grid rather than sending it back into the third
rail with regenerative braking means more heat in the tunnels than
even friction brakes generate. ]
I've heard others say this, but I disagree. the same amount of energy is being dissapated, and either way, it's all being converted to heat. How it's distributed through the tunnels may be different*, but the total amount of heat must be the same.
* i.e. dynamics feed grids, which dissapate heat into the air quickly, as compared to hot shoes and wheels, which dissapate the heat more slowly, and probably conduct some of it to the axles, bearings, and perhaps even the tracks also.
All of the energy goes somewhere, but as I understand it, with friction braking some of the energy is dissipated as lateral motion (vibration, etc.) and as degenerative breakdown of the frictive surfaces. With dynamic brakes it's 100% heat.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The Law of Conservation of Energy says that the total energy in
the universe must remain constant [ of course it is wrong
because of mass-energy equivalence, but that doesn't come into
play here ].
A train moving at a certain speed has kinetic energy. There is
the energy of .5mv2 of the mass of the train moving
down the track, as well as rotational kinetic energy in the wheels,
gearboxes, axles and traction motor armatures. Since when the train
stops it has 0 kinetic energy, the energy must go somewhere and
must all be accounted for. How much is that? Well, let's take
the weight of an R-68 (s***-can), 46 tons. That's 41,725 kg.
Let's call the top-end speed in these heady days of full-field
motoring 30 MPH, or about 5 meters/second. Therefore, the
kinetic energy, neglecting rotational energy, is about 521,500
Joules, or 0.145 kilowatt hours, or 495 BTUs, per car.
An 8-car train packs 3960 BTUs of energy at 30 MPH.
In dynamic braking, the kinetic energy first becomes electrical
energy, which is delivered to the resistor grids which convert
it to thermal energy (heat). The grid resistors become warmer
by an amount that depends on the specific heat factor of the
alloy that makes up the grids. The grids are designed to be
cooled by the flow of air over them, and thus transfer most of
the heat energy to the air in the tunnel. When the air temperature
in the tunnel exceeds that of the outside air and the tunnel
walls, some of that heat slowly escapes that way.
To put this in perspective, take a room air conditioner rated
at 12,000 BTU/hr (common misconception: air conditioners and heaters
are rated in BTU/hr, not BTU.). It would take this air conditioner
about 20 minutes to remove the heat generated by our hypothetical
train's station stop. This should give some idea of the amount
of A/C needed to cool a station such as Grand Central on the Lex,
and that doesn't include the load of the trainboard A/C units dumping
their heat too.
If the same stop is made using pure friction braking, again, the
same amount of energy has to go somewhere. Some of it winds up
as acoustic energy (noise). The noise travels until it is absorbed
by the tunnel walls, in which process the noise becomes heat.
Some energy is converted into potential energy as work is performed
on the surface of the wheels and brake shoes, converting the
material into a compacted state which has higher potential energy
than its original state. In theory, if you could find a way to
collect all the steel dust from the tunnel floor and unleash this
trapped energy, you'd be able to get back some of the lost kinetic
energy. These two forms of dissipation, however, are negligible.
The majority of the energy gets converted by friction to heat.
However, unlike dynamic braking, the heat is generated within much
larger objects that have a higher specific heat than grids. Our
30-0 stop which might cause, say, a 5 degree (Far.) rise in the
grids might cause only a 1 degree rise in the brake shoes and
wheel/axle sets. Since the wheels, brake shoes and axles are
all in good mechanical communication with each other and with the
running rails, the heat is transmitted into the track. These
components do not have as good a surface area exposure to the air
as grid resistors, and therefore the thermal resistance of the
wheel/air interface is a lot higher. Most of the heat flows through
the track and invert into the surrounding earth, which is in
this case effectively an infinite heat sink.
So, the summary is that while energy must be conserved, that
conservation can happen anywhere in the universe, not just your
particular section of hot steamy tunnel.
Ok, thanks for the explanation!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Has anyone actually done measurements of this?
I have a lot of trouble believing that a significant amount of heat is conducted from the wheel into the rail. The contact area is a few square cm - that is a few tenths of a percent of the surface area of the wheel. (I suppose the hottest part of the wheel is in contact with the rail). I also would think a train stopping would heat the wheel, and especially the brake shoe, up quite a bit more than 1 degree F. Assuming a 200 kg wheel, and using your # of BTUs, I did a calculation that the wheel, if all the heat went into it, would go up .74 K, or 1.3 deg F, for every stop. For a run with frequent stops, the heat of one stop will not dissapate before the next, and the wheel will heat up quite a few degrees before it reaches an effective equilibrium, where the average heat input equals the average heat output.
Anyways, now you have a wheel a few degrees hotter than its surroundings, with about a square meter of surface area, and maybe 5 sq. cm. in contact with metal. The object is dark in color, so its going to be a pretty good radiator. I'd say most of the heat radiates or is lost to convection (and the air rushing by the wheel).
And are the tracks in good thermal contact with the earth? Lots of relative insulators. They can radiate heat into the air above them, or lose it by convection.
Unless someone does experiments on this, I really don't believe there is a significant, or even measurable difference, between the heat load from conventional and dynamic brakes.
It's been my experience that only the brake shoes with high milage under friction braking squeal. When the dynamic has failed for an extensive period of time, the shoe heats up more and consequently the tread contacting portion of the shoe glazes up. When it get's hardened and smooth it squeals. Typically a brake shoe won't get that hot in normal service. Take a properly functioning propulsion system and open the #5 circuit breaker. Listen as the train stops with out dynamic brake. Pnumatic friction brakes only. Most likely it will be just as silent as if the dynamic was active. Leave it that way a few days. Now hold your ears.
As I've told you before, you are wasting your time in RTO. In DCE you'd be a rising star.
There was a train at Kings Highway last week that the T/O's reverser came out and the drum stayed foward. I went over to take a look at it, maybe try and help. Before you know it i'm on the phone to Control Center having to explain why a mere Conductor was trying to correct a problem.
There are half a dozen rules not only authorizing me but one or two requiring me to. Needless to say I didn't have a big screwdriver to pop it back, and I didn't open up the controller. But the T/O was so intimidated by me (and sensitive to what had happened) that he felt threatened and was willing to start yelling and called control.
Last time I try and help him.
For the treatment I reccieved from both him and the idiot at control, you'd think I did something wrong.
Does anyone know if MTA's planned 2nd Avenue line would be built to be expandable?
I am wondering about expandability north of 125th and south of 63rd, and expandability to 4 tracks. (I am assuming they are only proposing to build 2 tracks). Whether or not MTA says 125th to 63 will be just the first segment, as they are not now, it would be just ridiculous if they did not build stub ends into the tunnels so they can easily connect extensions to the first part. Think about the expense of connecting the 63rd St tunnel to the Queens IND.
As for four tracks, I wonder how much more it costs to build a tunnel big enough for four tracks, than one for two. I suspect that its almost twice as much for the tunnelled portion. But since a big portion of the tunnel will be cut and cover, why not build a two level tunnel? Don't have to put any tracks or anything else down there, aside from a few water pumps. A large part of the cost of cut n cover is moving utilities, and this would be no more expensive for a two level, four track subway, than for a normal two track subway. It would certainly be more expensive, but not twice as much. Seems like it should be seriously considered, perhaps even with design that would make the tunnelled portions easier to expand to four tracks.
"I am wondering about expandability north of 125th and south of 63rd, and expandability to 4 tracks. (I am assuming they are
only proposing to build 2 tracks). Whether or not MTA says 125th to 63 will be just the first segment, as they are not now, it
would be just ridiculous if they did not build stub ends into the tunnels so they can easily connect extensions to the first part.
Think about the expense of connecting the 63rd St tunnel to the Queens IND."
I deem this propose as useless and unsound. At least 149th Street and third Avenue will make sense to me. Connections with the most crowdest lines (2,4,5) will be achieved.
125TH STREET AND LEXINGTON AVENUE IT OUT OF THE QUESTION! IT JUST TO COMPLEX: STAIRS, STAIRS, STAIRS UNLESS THEY BUILD THE TRANSFER ON THE OTHER SIDE. NOT POSSIBLE BECAUSE OF THE STREET ABOVE.
why would they have a train that stop at 63 and Lex and then terminate at 125 and Lex? Does not make sense...........
3TM
From what I've seen in MTA brochures from the MESA study, there will be stub ends at 63rd Street and 125th Street to allow for expansion.
The reason the 63rd Street connection was so expensive is that the original design was completely different. In 1969 the plan was for a new line all the way to Forest Hills, where the connection would have been made to the Queens Blvd. line.
Will it be designed in any way to be expandable to 4 tracks?
Took the family to Seashore last Friday. We had a great day, set up
by our favorite meteorologist!
I highly recommend a visit anytime you are in the Kennebunkport area.
One of the currently MCs out there is a orange one that invites you to "Dial 101-6868". A fellow SubTalker has found out that this is the "PT-1" MC, why, well in very small print is WWW.PT-1.COM.
Now for the question: I was told that it comes in four versions, but I've only seen one, a woman in a blue shirt with a big smile. In the mail recently I got an adv. from the same firm. It has photos of five folks (2 males & 3 females). Interestingly the woman's photo is reversed ? I suspect that the other 3 of 4 will have a different photos from amoung this group. Has anyone seen any ?
Mr t__:^)
Wont using regenative braking instead of dynamic braking benifit the NYCTA more? Other trains comming down the line could use the extra power. Dynamic vents the heat into stations and tunnels. I think that regenative braking will have a better function.
Yeah, those R-68s need all the power they can get...
Sure makes sense to me. Could it be that the trackside power equipment would get futzed up by it? If that's the case, then they should upgrade or modify it. I imagine they would recoup the costs in power savings over time. Once enough regen-brake rolling stock is running, that is.
I'd be interested to know when this was last studied. It would seem like modern power electronics would make this a lot more feasible.
In some states, if you generate power for your house using solar energy, you can put any excess power you generate onto the grid - and the power company pays you for it. Seems like it should be possible on the subway, too. You'll never recover all that power, but maybe a good portion. But it is not trivial - would add to the cost of new cars and probably require new equipment in the power distribution system. I don't know how much, though.
Futz up the substations? If they're old enough, sure thing. When SEPTA first put the K cars in service, they had to turn the regen off (good 'ol dynamic at work) until they could modify the old PRT/PTC substations to not disconect when the got a reverse power shot. Once all the stations were modified, the regen went on.
On Red Arrow, the two old substations remaining were replaced, the others were newer and needed only slight modifications.
The Kawasaki BSS cars use regen braking? I didn't know that. Interesting - thanks for the info!
So, to return to the beginning post in this topic, why doesn't the NYCT fleet use regen braking? Is it the same reason as the old BSS - that the trackside electric substation equipment would have to be upgraded or modified?
Or is the MTA just pitifully behind the times, and afraid to catch up??
I was referring to the LRV's not the B-4 cars, but I thing they regen too.
The Kawasaki LRVs use regen. braking? Interesting. So is that why they make a distinct humming sound when they brake, as opposed to the M-4s, which have the typical dynamic brake whine?
The new tech equipment has regen. You can't regen into the
line (third rail) without sophisticated power electronics, because
you need to maintain tight regulation of the voltage and current.
You also need a tricky circuit to avoid regenerating into a
third rail section that has been shut off so you don't fry someone.
In energy-conscious 1970s, regenerative braking was tried on a
pair of R-32s, but the energy was dumped into a flywheel rather than
back into the contact rail.
I wouldn't call that true regenerative braking, either - more like a dissipative energy storage system. But it's theoretically a good concept, even though in practice it didn't work out.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
You also need a tricky circuit to avoid regenerating into a
third rail section that has been shut off so you don't fry someone.
Not really. If 3rd rail power is pulled, you won't find revenue trains entering that section of track. The only thing permitted in such an area would be diesel.
Not really? If firefighters request power off and a train is putting voltage back into the third rail while they are on the roadbed, that would be a BIG no no. As for the electric locomotives OEL 1-10, they are equipped with heavy duty diodes to prevent the MG from backfeeding the third rail after initial shutdown, as the MG continues to generate 600 as it coasts to a stop. Police, firefighters and TA personnel frequently request power off in areas not shut down by General Order. The confirmation of "power off" by command center is a very big deal which involves more than the roadside personnel, it involves the fire dispatcher, control center dispatcher and the Power Distribution guys passing information before the firemen go to work on or near the tracks. In the meantime express trains are allowed to coast to the next station or emergency exit, possibly regenerating power back to the third rail. I expect to see tons of bulletins issued as the "teething problems" and disasters of these new systems go into service.
[ Not really. If 3rd rail power is pulled, you won't find revenue trains entering that section of track. The only thing permitted in such an area would be diesel. ]
That's not true. When people's lives are at risk, you have to plan for the worst. (Which is why signaling often seems so conservative.)
In Philly, on the MFL, the old M-3 cars were electrically independent on a per-car basis, regardless of whether a car was in a married pair.
But the new M-4s are all married pairs. And, unlike the M-3s, each M-4 married pair shares a unified electrical subsystem.
In AdTranz's warped logic, this was supposed to be a "feature" that allowed cars to stay in contact with the 3rd rail more often.
But when SEPTA wants to shut off a section of the MFL, they want to make sure that it will be off, so they can work on it with guaranteed safety. This means that no car, or married pair, can bridge the 3rd rail gap, and thus, bring power from a powered segment to a segment that _should_ be unpowered.
According to my info, this was a huge miscommunication between AdTranz and SEPTA. So SEPTA ended up with the sh** end of the deal, and they had to spend a nice little chunk of change lengthening each and every 3rd rail gap on the line.
My point is that the gaps are a problem, and you have to assume the worst-case scenario, which is that a train will go full-speed into an unpowered segment of a line. At that point, the TO will probably realize that something is wrong, and will put on the brakes, sending power into a segment that shouldn't have power. And that segment probably. Therefore, you DO have to have circuitry to make sure you're not putting power onto an otherwise dead segment of 3rd rail.
[ And that segment probably. ]
Sorry for the typo - the above should have read:
"And that segment probably shouldn't have power for a good reason."
With all this talk about sending power to otherwise inactive 3rd rail, why don't they ground the 3rd rail when they power off the section for emergency work, etc.
The detection of a dead short by the regen system should be easy, and if something should somehow bridge a gap or something, you'd know it immediately when a circuit breaker goes kerplow.
Even if the regen system continued to send power to the 3rd rail, the resistance on the circuit should be low enough that the voltage couldn't get anywhere near a dangerous level..
Seems like the safest thing to do...
With all this talk about sending power to otherwise inactive 3rd rail, why don't they ground the 3rd rail when they power off the section for emergency work, etc.
Grounding unpowered sections during maintainance/emergencies is standard practice for a good number of high-voltage catenary systems. 600vdc is lethal to the touch, but 25kvac can jump. No matter the voltage, grounding unpowered track segments makes good safety sense.
Steve K, you wouldn't want to necessarily ground the third rail. The system might be a floating system at above ground potential. You would want to short the third rail to the running rail(s) with power off. The jumpers must have very good connections to the rail with at least 2-500MCM cables. Of course you have to know the operation and sensitivity of the Load Measuring circuit used in the Substation.
In the end, air is the best protection. Open the connections and you have the safety you need.
[ Steve K, you wouldn't want to necessarily ground the third rail. The
system might be a floating system at above ground potential. ]
If that were the case, the return rail would have to be insulated from ground.. And, if it were more than a few V different from ground, it would be dangerous to touch the running rails. I dunno if systems work that way, but I can't see how it would be anything other than a bad idea..
[ In the end, air is the best protection. Open the connections and you
have the safety you need. ]
Only if you can guarantee that air is the ONLY thing touching the circuit. Here, we've been talking about several potential ways for current to enter the nominally disconnected 3rd rail segment: A train bridging a gap, and a train with regenerative braking. Having a solid ground on the rail will prevent, or at worst easily detect such problems.
[ The jumpers must have very good connections to the rail with at least
2-500MCM cables. ]
Oh, at the _very_ least. I think most feeders in the system are 3-500mcm cables.. You'd probably want to just xfer the same cables from the power source to ground. Either way, you'd want enough so that anything thar tries to put current on the rails ends up blowing it's own fuses before being able to burn out any grounding system. (both of the above situations would have the current flowing through the shoe beam fuses)..
I believe that grounding HV AC lines also has to do with preventing the lines from being energized via induction. In any case it's "grounded" to the running rails. Electricity acts in interesting ways at high voltage - also remember that some MUs have jumpers between pans.
According to my PRR book on it (a questions and answers trainning one), the way to cut the overhead in an emergency was to ground the pans on the locomotive, while they were up! *bang!* I won't even go into the operation of the PL relay on the MUs, other to say that it's pretty messed up. But realize - this was pre radio, so there really wasn't any other way to do it quickly.
Oh yes - Mr Train control - would you have any info on the LIRR ASC, noteably something on the on car equipement on the old MP-54s? I'm kinda looking for technical on those cars :) (mail me privately if you want)
I have a circuit drawings of controls of the IRT HI-V Gibbs cars.Is that close enough to the MP-54's on the LIRR?
Unfortunetly, no :(
The MP-54 is a Unit Switch system. Three notches. All westinghouse. And AMUE brakeing..
The Branford delegation will be at Seashore this weekend.
What are you looking for on that MP-54? You seem to have
some drawings, what is that, for a 72?
I'm looking for the electrical diagrams, etc.
what info do you already have? Do you have any drawings
of the unit switch group, or of similar cars?
Nothing - hey - can you email me on this? Netscape seems to crash after the first 50k or so of loading subtalk, and besides, I always have email - I'm not always able to browse the web...
> Netscape seems to crash after the first 50k or so
Upgrade! Doesn't happen on the Solaris version of Netscape (but lots of other sites crash it). But seriously, set your SubTalk settings to only show 2 days or something to try to keep it down.
-Dave
p.s. yes I'm back. My trip was cut short due to being robbed in Amsterdam of my credit cards and cash.
Sorry to hear that Dave. I hope you weren't in any danger.
Ditto here..........
3TM
Rockaway Av, Transfer available to the B60 lower level. This is a Manhattan Bound 3 making local stops to Chambers. The next station is Saratoga. Transfer available to the B7 lower level. Step in, Step on, Step off, Step out. Stand clear of the closing doors......
Phil....your email address of nasadowski@mail.hartford.edu
comes back user unknown. I went beneath the MP54 at
Seashore. It has a Westinghouse UP243A switch group. I'll Let
you know what I find out about that.
"According to my PRR book on it (a questions and answers trainning one), the way to cut the overhead in an
emergency was to ground the pans on the locomotive, while they were up! *bang!* "
Good Lord! How was that done???
Straight from PRR book #204 - Questions and answers on AC locos, MUs, and oil fired boilers for syeam heat, 1946:
(I should scan and OCR this all - and the MP-54 E1 / E2 (AC 11kv) book)
#36: Q: When should emergency grounding switches in the engineman's compartment be used?
A: Only when pantograph relay fails to protect the engine or any emergency requiring the immediate removal of power from the trolley wire.
Emphesis, on all of these, is mine.
#37: Q: What is the purpose of the pneumatic grounding contactor?
A: To ground the pantographs to the frame of the engine
#38 deals with the locations of switches.
#39: Q: What actuates the pneumatic grounding contactors?
A: Either a complete operation of the pantograph relay, or closing or the emergency grounding switches in each operating cab energizes the pneumatic grounding contactor magnet valve....
There you go.
On the Silverliner (MP-85BE1):
About the primary protective apperatus:
4.1.2 Operation:
a) In the event of a sustained primary overload, the primary overload relay will close. Closeing the overload relay energizes the pneumatic grounding switch magnet valve, which in turns actuates the pneumatic grounding switch grounding the pantograph and trolley and opening the substation breakers
This will also lower the pans automaticaly!! BUT! There is a time delay, to LEAVE them up, grounded, long enough to open the substation breakers!
Why they did this, is byond me - perhaps there was a worry that a large arc as the pan drops would break the overhead line, and cause it to fall onto the roof?
Neat. Thanks.
If that were the case, the return rail would have to be insulated from ground.. [...] I dunno if systems work that way, but I can't see how it would be anything other than a bad idea..
Doesn't one rail need to be (minmally) insulated from ground for the track circuits to work properly?
If the signal rail is isolated from ground, you probably don't want to tie the third rail to the signal rail. Unless, of course, you want an accident to give the the tower operator the shock of his life. :-)
CH
You speak of the flywheel cars of R32's. For your information the cars were equipped with flywheels engineered and provided by Garrett of Torrence California. The flywheels used dynamic current to turn and help in accelerating the two cars from a station platform. The project was successful. The flywheel that turned in vacuum weighed too much. BTW, I own the advertising cards from these cars which describe the flywheel operation. The equipped was removed by Taconic Data Research of Carle Place Long Island.
"New tech equipment"? ie, R142/143????
If this is what you mean, will the regen actually be used when the cars come into service?
Tight regulation of Voltage and Current: How stable is the voltage on the third rails, currently? I certainly would not have guessed that it was real stable, as trains pull out of stations and draw huge current, for instance. And how sensitive are the trains themselves to voltage variations and spikes?
It would seem like regenerative braking would not just require equipment on the train, but also in the substation to allow power to flow onto the grid from the tracks. This would, I think, be part of the voltage regulation required.
The problem of energizing a section of third rail being worked on seems best solved by a system of grounding shorts, as otherwise proposed. This seems like it would be the safest way to work on a third rail, with or without regen braking. Perhaps a remote switch, at either end of the third rail section, could be closed to ground out the third rail section whenever it is powered down.
The fuse would blow in the train that tried to energize that section. Which brings up another thing about regen braking - the trains still need resistor grids, and circuitry to "instantly" dump the voltage into those resistor grids, so a train does not lose braking power if it loses contact with a live 3rd rail.
I don't know if the regenerative braking equipment was tested
on the R110 test trains. During braking, the energy is fed
back into the third rail at a few volts higher than what the
rail was carrying before braking. Just enough voltage differential
to make the necessary amount of braking current flow. The power
does not flow back into the grid, because it's tough to make the
substation go from rectifier to inverter and back-feed high voltage
AC. Instead, the system relies on the fact that there are usually
a bunch of trains within one power distribution area, i.e. hanging
off the same substation rectifier output. This is larger than
the power-off sections under control of the blue boxes and power
distribution, because several tracks and sections receive power from
the same rectifier. So, the energy is delivered by the braking
train back into the third rail, where it travels until it is used
by another train. Excess energy gets dumped into grid resistors
a la dynamic braking. This all relies on their being a better
(lower impedance) path from the braking train to the beneficiary than
from the substation to either point. Too much voltage and you actually create load on the substation because it sees a DC side
voltage that is higher than the peaks coming off the 3 phase
transformers and the diodes conduct backwards. If the substation
has a reverse current overlimit relay, it may trip and shut
the whole thing down.
The other approach to regen is to store the energy locally and use
it again the next time the train accelerates. That's what was
tried with the flywheel system in the 1970s. The concern is that's
an awful lot of energy (what did I say before, 500,000 Joules?)
to store under the car. In the event of a collision or derailment
that mechanically damaged the flywheel, if it should fly apart it
would be like setting off a crate of grenades.
It seems to me that the safety issues are simple--they just require absolute rigor. That said the system IMHO should be configured as follows. Summer season regen braking to balance the need for AC, winter use the resistor grids to heat the cars and stations.
Phil Nasadowski had this post in the NY Railfan Forum.
The reason the Oyster Bay line gets the crap is because the LIRR pretty much wishes the line would go away. Witeness the cutting back of it to Mineola, the 2 hour between train schedules, lack of station upkeep, slow ride. It has the worst ridership of any LIRR line (save for West hempstead, which has only a few stations). 9 out of 10 times I need to go to NYC, I get a bus to Port Wash, or Mineola, or have my parents dump me at Mineola.
Is the Oyster Bay Branch really the stepchild of the LIRR? The line Roosevelt used to take?
Kevin Walsh
www.forgotten-ny.com
I guess I disagree with Phil. I've been riding the OB since the late 60's when the family moved to Roslyn Heights. The schedule is now (slightly) better than it was back then, with a few more weekend trains than there used to be (hourly service westbound in the AM; hourly service eastbound in the PM).
Currently, there are only three weekday trains in each direction cut back to Mineola; the rest go to Jamaica or Hunterspoint.
My recollection is that the LIRR did want to electrify the line in the early 70's, but the communities rejected the idea (the stated reason was it would make the area less rural, and thus less appealing).
Having ridden the line as far as Sea Cliff for the first time since the platforms were raised last week, I can say that the new platforms are decent-looking. Even the old station house at Sea Cliff has been preserved.
I'll reserve further judgement until the DMs are all in service, and we see if service improves with direct OB-Penn Station service, and a reduction in the number of Mineola shuttles. Now if the new siding between Mineola and Merillion Avenue is used to increase Mineola shuttles, I suspect many people won't be very happy.
[Now if the new siding between Mineola and Merillion Avenue is used to increase Mineola shuttles, I suspect many people won't be very happy.]
What's the problem with Mineola shuttles? Changing at Mineola vs. Jamaica doesn't seem to be any imposition. In fact, it's probably easier to change at Mineola as it would be a same-platform thing, no stair transfers required as may be the case at Jamaica.
But in bad weather, there's little protection at Mineola. At least Jamaica has platform-length cover.
[ What's the problem with Mineola shuttles? Changing at Mineola vs.
Jamaica doesn't seem to be any imposition. In fact, it's probably ]
It's not that big of a deal, but:
(1) there is more of a time penalty, as you need to wait for the next train, as opposed to crossing the platform, and leaving roughly the same time as the train you arrived on. Depending on the connection, you lost at least 3 minutes.
(2) The mineola shuttles only have connections from Penn. If you're not going to or coming from Penn, you end up with a 3 train trip! Currently, getting to the East Side of Manhattan is best done via terminals other than Penn (LIC, HP Ave, Flatbush), and GCT will be the same.
(3) some trains stop on the opposite track at Mineola. Don't know if any current O/B connections are scheduled like this, but it's not uncommon to see the off-peak direction track used for peak-direction traffic. (A Huntington train usually passes LIRR #507 on 2 track while 507 receives passengers on 1 track.
In addition, late at night, I'd much rather be at Jamaica than waiting at Mineola station.
The 5:33 Penn-Hicksville local, immortalized by Colin Ferguson runs on the westbound track and stops at the city-bound platforms from New Hyde Park to Westbury. All we need is for it to connect with a future Oyster Bay shuttle in a way that would require people to climb up and down stairs between platforms at Mineola. (It seems every time I change between electric to diesel at Huntington, this move is required.)
On a side note, all the news reports the night of December 7, 1993, as well as pictures in the paper appeared to show the stricken train on the EASTBOUND track at Merillon station. If it had run as normally routed, it would be immediately adjacent to the 7-11 parking lot. Maybe that night it was rerouted to the eastbound track?
[ Re colin fergusen train: the EASTBOUND track at Merillon station. If it had run as normally
routed, it would be immediately adjacent to the 7-11 parking lot.
Maybe that night it was rerouted to the eastbound track? ]
So is it your conjecture that if the train had been routed as usual, on Main line #1 track, the whole incident may never have happened?
Or, in the eloquent words of bugs bunny, "if they had only made that left turn at Albequerque, none of this would ever have happened"
I think you misunderstood me a tad. I'm not saying that the track the train ran on had ANY effect on Ferguson's actions. Nothing can stop a person bent on mayhem; ask the people on the '4' train that was firebombed at Fulton Street. I'm just saying that the train appeared to be on the 'wrong' track when stopped after the shooting. Of course, nothing on TV looks the same as it does in real life.
A morbid friend of mine went to the scene the day after and says he found much residue (bandages, police tape) on the OUTBOUND platform rather than the INBOUND one where the 5:33 to Hicksville normally stops. I took this train once and it did feel very disorienting to be travelling on the left while electric and diesel expresses zoomed by on the right. That was a key point of this thread (I think); that in rush hours both tracks will be used in the peak direction with some trains running on the 'wrong' track and serving the 'wrong' platforms. This practice is common on the Port Jeff, Ronkonkoma and Babylon branches.
Sorry if I used a tragedy to illustrate a point.
Not to be morbid, but that's most likely true. At various times during the year, memorial wreaths are hung on the railing at the eastern end of the eastbound track.
--Mike
While we're talking about the O.B. line. Does anyone know why a couple of PM rush-hour E/B trains pass Mineola? I would love to use the 5:33 to O.B. out of LIC (one of the only 2 trains that still uses the Montauk tracks out of LIC, one of my favorite routes) but it skips Mineola. At Jamaica it just misses (usually) a Ronkonkoma train and you have to wait about 25 min for a train to Mineola. (At least its a diesal to P. Jefferson)
The SARGE -my homepage
my tranit buff page
[ While we're talking about the O.B. line. Does anyone know why a couple
of PM rush-hour E/B trains pass Mineola? I would love to use the 5:33
to O.B. out of LIC ]
I don't know why it does, but it's been that way for a long time. 560 (the train you refer to) is the PM return trip for 507. These trains are probably the most utilized on the line, and used to run 6 cars with double-headed MP15ac's. In the AM, the train would pull into LIC, and a switcher (usually #100, I think) would follow right behind it, and couple up just a minute after people got off, and shuffle the string of cars onto an adjacent track so the engines could run around. Now they're using a standard push-pull arrangement with 27,2800 series cars and HEP. My guess is that this may be the only O/B line Peak train to go into Penn station. They may placate the line with another train or 2 during off-peak hours when there are extra slots.
Oh. I lost track of the point here. 560 used to run with 2900 series cars, with manuall operated doors, and although it didn't stop at Mineola, it usually went by slow enough to make alighting the train relatively easy. I guess they don't stop so as not to foul up the main line for too long, as it is the peak of rush hour.
As a rather unhappy Sea Cliff resident, the typical opposition to OB line electrifications explains why the Sea Cliff/Glen Cove area is a big dump. Because of thise NIMBY's, the downtowns here are becoming Ghostowns because everyone opposes business.
Roslyn and Roslyn Heights are going downhill, thanks to one of these backward organizations, Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor. We barely have enough supermarkets, yet they fought and won against the construction of a much needed Stop and Shop supermarket in Roslyn, which has no supermarkets or drugstores. People around here just won't accept that Nassau county is a suburb, not a rural area.
Heck, we can't even have Friendly's Ice Cream here (the one in Glen Cove closed a few months ago).
I'll blame LIRR for a lot of things, but the opposition of electrification and economic development by my backward minded neighbors is not the LIRR fault but those residents of Sea Cliff/Glen Cove for opposing the much needed improvement of the area.
And the sad thing is, they still do. I heard about Asbury Park,NJ, and let me tell you that Sea Cliff and Glen Cove are more than halfway there.
Why don't you start a movement to run these idiots out of town? Do you know enough people that agree with you?
Don't run them out of town!!!! As train buffs we NEED a local Nassau line that still has locomotives!!!! If those people didn't have their way and Oyster Bay was electrified it would be just like any other Nassau branch, such as Hempstead, Far Rock, Long Beach, W.Hemp, etc!!!
As for me, I love the O.B. trains. (even though I usually get on @ Mineola so I only ride it on the Main Line) After having a bunch of M3's whizz by at Mineola it is great when you hear several loud diesel whistles with NO train in sight in either direction. You know that any second a diesel is going to slowly enter the picture round the curve east of the station!!
my transit page
The needs of the train buff mean absolutely nothing to the rest of the world. Electrification would have a world of good for many people, whereas the retention of diesel service seems to (in addition to somehow statisfying the brainless NIMBYs) do nothing more than satisfy the needs of train buffs hearing their whistles from oncoming trains. I hope that you don't take any offense, as none is intended. Only the mindless NIMBYs have offense intended.
Well Jeff the problem is that the diesel line means bad service, it means poor ridership, and a poor area economy when in a county with all it's other LIRR lines electrified.
The NIMBYs had their way in the 70s, and they have their way today. Don't get me wrong, rural diesel LIRR lines can be nice, but they really don't belong in Nassau county.
The OB line should've been electrified, if it had I'd be living in a far different and probably nicer area than I have now.
But thanks to the backward thinking people that live around here, this area is nothing but a dump. Now I'm worried that gangs and drugs will come next as they are beginning to boom in the vacant "City" of Glen Cove.
Have you been in Wyandanch lately? Electrification of the Ronkonkoma line hasn't helped revitalize the area. Neither has New Castle on the Main Line.(betw Hicksville & Westbury) Anyway with the bi-levels its a moot point. The OB line will be much more modern in a couple of years.
No, as long as it's a diesel line, it will ALWAYS be a second rate line. The #1 REASON why nobody takes it is because it's Diesel. It's slow and it has a next to non existant schedule. And you have to change at Jamacia / Mineola. Even if they did increase the service, I doubt it'd get much more ridership - it's just too damm slow. That's part of the diesel stigma on the island - slowness.
Now, if it got DMUs, maybe speeds would increase to the point of useabilitly....
[ - it's just too damm slow. That's
part of the diesel stigma on the island - slowness Now, if it got DMUs, maybe speeds would increase to the point of
useabilitly.... ]
Or even if it used the FL9AC's... My gut told me thay were _much_ faster than the DE30ACs, which aren't any faster than the old equipment.
I'm talking about acceleration here, not top speed. Any of these can reach 80MPH with no problems, although the old diesels are restricted to 65MPH. The new diesels are not restricted, but the Oyster Bay branch itself is restricted to 65. Maybe because it is not speed controlled? There aren't too many places where you could do it anyways, except maybe between locust valley and oyster bay.. Either tight turns, or stations too close together.
Either way, after having taken a train with the FL9AC's pulling it, I've been thoroughly underwhelmed by the DE30ac's acceleration. I wonder if it is a mechanical/power issue, or just a software thing..
Yes - the FL9-ACs are nice pieces of equipment and it is a shame the LIRR didn't decide to go this route. The FL9 still has a long life ahead of it and it has proven itself as a worthy mover.
LIRR rain #605 has been my regular train for 10 years (before the bilevels began service) and #660 is a regular friday (semi-regular weekday) train. When the bilevels initially went into service using a pair of GP38-2s for motive power (and a heavily modified FA2 for HEP) the schedules remained the same. When the FL9s were put into service, however, the running times (between Jamaica and Port Jefferson) were shortened by almost 10 minutes. Perhaps not a big deal until you follow the history of this equipment. Most LIRR riders will not believe me when I say that this equipment had a 100% on-time record for one FULL MONTH despite the fact that it left Penn station late fairly often (There was a "celebration" complete with media/press at Port Jefferson one morning for this). Even when the train would arrive at Greenlawn 10 minutes late, by the time it reached Port Jefferson (7 stops and only 30 miles later) it would actually be a few minutes early. Let's see the DM30s do that!
The type of rail equipment (diesel vs. electric) won't in and of itself create a better or worse economic environment.
Frequency of train operation might have a slight effect.
As for the vacant city of Glen Cove - consider the following as responsible:
* The towns who's zoning boards are paid off adequately to permit construction of Malls in inappropriate places - i.e. on wetlands ootside of downtown and away from existing retail in that town.
* The people who have given up on trying to use existing downtowns due
to difficult parking.
* The merchants in a downtown area who ignore the fact that the Malls
have competitive pricing and keep their prices high.
* A lack of focus on customer service in todays society where products
are disposable rather than fixable and the old fashioned relationship between customer and merchant is rare.
All of this causes people to shop elsewhere - in places where Malls do exist whether they are inside a downtown or out on an old potato farm.
I sincerely believe that the development of Malls in areas that are outside of the village or city center is by far the largest single cause of urban decay.
John is correct that the NIMBY attitude is pretty damaging at times.
When the local folks keep saying NO to new building in downtown, you have no chance of a Mall downtown and thus - a dying downtown. People do for the most part prefer shopping in a Mall - sad but true. And where the shoppers are determine the health of yoru town.
A few folks have had the foresight to build the Mall right IN DOWNTOWN. Take Stamford, CT for example. The Stamford Mall is right in downtown and has access to excellent parking, several bus lines, taxis, and is just about walking distance to the train station.
The Mall has played a major role in revitalizing downtown Stamford.
My understanding is that prior to the Mall - downtown Stamford was in bad shape. Now, restaraunts, various retail and entertainment places do pretty well - whether inside the Mall or within walking distance of it.
This is because the Mall is like a giant "anchor store" that brings crowds of people from miles around. Much impulse shopping happens at the Mall and in establishments around the Mall.
Anyway - As much a fan of diesel service as I am - I can't agree that the difference between diesel and elctrification of service will have a significant impact.
What does matter is how business in the town is handled, anchor stores, the attitudes of the residents and merchants and a willingness to change and adapt to current times and customs. NIMBYs are frequently an obstacle in this respect.
You have made some very good observations. Alot of people prefer malls, heck I even used to. But the trouble with malls is they all have the same stuff, same sales, and can be downright boring.
For instance whether I go to the upscale Roosevelt Field Mall, or the middle income Smith Haven Mall, I see the same clothes, namely that ugly cargo look, and the unsummerlike fashions that are popular this year, and those ugly black platform shoes that it seems all women in the mall wear. The mall is not the place to see "good looking" women anymore.
Yet when I go to places like downtowns, for instance Flushing, I see much different and colorful stuff, and because I take transit, it has easier access than malls.
It would sure be nice if Flushing got another tenant to fill the vacant Caldor and Woolworth.
But Flushing downtown is far from vacant, because the many Chinese that live there have helped the area economy by setting up new general purpose stores, resteruants, and book/music shops. Also you have mainstream fast food resteraunts like McDonald's and Wendy's in town, and everything in Flushing is busy.
Glen Cove on the other hand, has a large hispanic population, which really has not brought much in the way of economic improvements like the Chinese, instead they brought sights of illegal workers waiting on street corners in Glen Cove. It's a problem that has subsided somewhat thanks to the efforts of Mayor Suozzi.
There is no room for a mall in downtown Glen Cove. It does have a mini-mall, but that too is closed and vacant and has been for sometime. The only place where a mall in downtown Glen Cove could've been built,a big plot on Glen street, instead a large office building is built there instead, I think it's Acclaim entertainment's HQ.
And if a mall were to be built in Glen Cove downtown, the NIMBY's would be up in amrs as the "greatest" threat to their quiet life would be a mall built in the area. They managad to stop the now defunct Caldor from building a store in Glen Cove years back. It seems these NIMBY's have unlimited power and political resources, as there are alot people in Sea Cliff village, and county and state districts here that are preservationists, and side with NIMBY's and even have affiliations with Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor.
The trouble is development here is stopped by NIMBY's like you said, but whatever development make take place is too scaled down by the NIMBY's to have a real impact on improving the area.
And the NIMBY's in Sea Cliff have the fear, and have been intrumental in stopping Glen Cove from growing, because they don't want "traffic" flowing through their town.
And the NIMBY's like Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor are a prime obsticle, because they have $$ and great political power to stop plans dead in their tracks.
While LIRR electrification alone may not have improved the area at all, the stoppage of it by NIMBY sure does not help. NIMBY's are even against putting more buses on the road, they would put up a big fight if LI Bus wanted to expand service in Glen Cove. Funny thing is, NIMBY's say they care about the environment, yet keep old polluting diesel trains running, and keep away clean air CNG Orion buses that LI Bus runs. They force people to drive further because there's nothing in the area, which uses up more gas and creates more air pollution.
So in the end, are these people really environmentally concious? Of course not. They are just a bunch of selfish snobby people who in my mind must be stopped at all costs.
The people in Flushing are mostly KOREAN. People from East Asia are not always Chinese. Now, as for the all costs thing, you think that terrorism is the answer? Personally, I would love to see a lot full of dead NIMBYs lying in a pool of their own fresh blood.
OK, I'm not that psychotic, but I HATE NIMBYS!!!
As long as that lot of dead Nimby's are Not in my backyard!!!
Lets also not forget it was the same pack of NIMBYs that stopped Nelson Rockefeller from building the bridge from OysterBay to Rye over Long Island Sound. So look what they got --- Route 135 that ends in the middle of the island, a partially built (never to be completed) Route 231 in North Babylon and more traffic congestion because everyone (almost) has to drive west thru Nassau to the TNB or Whitestone to exit LI.
If that bridge were built the LIE would be a nightmare!! (Well more of a nightmare than it is already) Alot of the 18 wheelers from New England would take the bridge and L.I. would get alot of the Cross Bronx Expressway traffic!!!
Here's an idea for a new horror-film: "I was a Teenage NIMBY" starring a cast of unknown thousands! :-)
Rim shot or what?!
Doug aka BMTman
Well I did not mean terrorism or violence against my area NIMBY's, I meant trying to loudly denounce them by a letter blitz to area representatives, letters to residents. "At All Costs" means not being afraid to speak out publically against the NIMBYs and not allowing them to stop us.
And Flushing has Koreans too, I know. There are alot of Korean business there as well as Chinese I did not imply that I thought Koreans were Chinese.
Actually, Flushing's a nightmare in the Main Street area. It is crowded and crammed to the crush point during the day, and when you exit to Flushing/Main St from the LIRR, 40th Road stinks of fish even in the dead of winter.
The station itself could really use an overhead crossing a la Bayside, because the PW Branch frequently has one track closed for service. The only way to cross over is to descend to Main Street and battle the crowds, on a sidewalk narrowed by--guess what--the pillar that supports the trestle!
Well 40th road is the heart (and the start) of the Chinese businesses in Flushing, and while it does stink from nearby fish markets, it's not really that bad compared to the smell in Chinatown. Besides there are some great Chinese resteruants around there. The fish smell may stink sometimes, but maybe Chinese feel the same way about the awful smell from area Burger Kings!
I don't blame the Chinese/Korean businesses for the crowding, the city is at fault for not fixing area streets and widening sidewalks.
And in alot of ways Flushing is a hell of a lot nicer than Chinatown!
The Flushing LIRR station is in bad shape and the MTA should improve exits. I really think the exits for the 7 are not in the best places either, emptying into crowded street areas. Any suggestions?
+NIMBYS are useful, you can sic them on highway boondoggle promoters and when flooding shorts out the third rail, just harness them to the trains so they can pull them ;~} ;~}
Regarding malls, NIMBYs, and Glen Cove's woes ...
First of all, let me confess that I do like malls. Yes, I know they're an "artificial" environment, that they've hurt many downtowns, are often inhospitable to transit, etc. But the fact remains that they offer a combination of comfort and convenience that's hard to find anywhere else. There is - or should be - places for different types of shopping environments, malls (and downtowns) among them.
Another thing to keep in mind is that Long Island is *not* over-malled. There are a total of seven full-fledged malls in Nassau and Suffolk counties (Roosevelt Field, Green Acres, Broadway, Sunrise, Wal Whitman, South Shore, and Smith Haven). Seven malls is not a lot for a population of 2.6 million. I'll bet that there's a considerably lower population:mall ratio in almost any Sunbelt urban area. My point is that the role of malls in the decline of Glen Cove, and many other Long Island downtowns, probably has been exaggerated.
As far as Glen Cove's woes are concerned, road access may be a bigger problem than the Oyster Bay line's inadequacies. While I've only been there a few times, it seemed to take a long time to get to Glen Cove from the Expressway. It's a lengthy drive on non-limited-access roads, with way too many traffic lights along the way. My guess is that this relative isolation has been a factor in Glen Cove's sluggish development. Improving service on the Oyster Bay line would help, but given Long Island's vehicular orientation I just don't see better train service as a cure-all. But that doesn't mean that the NIMBY types are anything but the Spawn of Satan!
One last thing - has Glen Cove seen any spill-over from Acclaim, such as in the development of software startup companies?
Unfortunately I only know a few, since the Sea Cliff/Glen Cove community is very preservationist. They are so blind, they just don't see what's going on.
There are gangs and drugs along Glen Cove avenue by the housing projects, plus there may be some stuff right around both Glen street and Sea Cliff LIRR. I never use those stations, especially at night because they are isolated and dangerous.
This area is in a bad way, yet if I try to get a movement that stupid Coalition to Save Hempstead Harbor would twist my words.
They have stopped Stop and Shop, an economic revitlization of the waterfront, and now they are trying to stop development of the weed filled, rat infected vacant lots at Glenwood Landing.
Unfortunately it will take a group with alot of $$$ and power to stop this "Harbor Society" from dragging us down a whole.
People in my town are very complacent except when somebody wants to build, then they fill Village Hall with their stupid NIMBY meetings.
And I knew a few who spoke up against the NIMBY's at the meetings, and they were boo-ed and denounced, heck even a few cursed at them.
I live in a very messed up town, perhaps I should just get out before it's too late.
Sea Cliff aint the pretty little town everyone thinks it is.
These same NIMBY people in my school have also denounced me as a jerk, ignorant moron, and a person against all established things because i am an open pro rail person and i have made my point clear but these people need tio be dragged through the streets. Oh have any of you subtalkers in Glen Head, Roslyn Harbor, Sea Cliff and Glen Cove OVERHEARD OR HEARD COMPLAINTS ABOUT SOMEONE WHO IS A MEGA TRAIN FAN OR FANATIC AT North Shore High
So you do live around here? Ever been to Shop Rite Farmers Bazaar during the day? It's a crazy place, isn't it?
Do you live in Sea Cliff?
It's the only town with weeds growing wild and the dogs walk themselves unleashed around town!
Well at least Double Deckers are coming on the LIRR, and I got the N21 and N27 bus routes!
Well I hate Shop Rite and shop in Pathmark in Greenvale instead, which is so much better than the out-of-stock madhouse Shop Rite.
Glen head i also go to pathmanrk and love thr bilevels during a bomb threat when a billevel passed in front of 50-60 kids and a fe wteachers i gave the trsain a military salkute
Huh?
Based on the attitudes in Sea Cliff & Glen Cove, you wonder how station renovations ever were approved at Sea Cliff and Glen Street. Apparently they would like train service and the downtowns to dry up and go away, so that the North Shore could turn into Mallville USA like the South Shore did.
As a Roslyn harbor resident (Hi Todd!!), I can tell you - that stop and shop was in the worst possible location. If it were somewhere like up by Harbor View (Oh wait, that's Harbour View Shoppes:) it would be better. bBut putting it right on *old* northern Bvd, by turn of the centry buildings, on a narrow street, was just plain stupid. hell, I would even take it back behind that health club heading towards greenvale, beyond the bridge...
As a Roslyn harbor resident (Hi Todd!!), I can tell you - that stop and shop was in the worst possible location. If it were somewhere like up by Harbor View (Oh wait, that's Harbour View Shoppes:) it would be better. bBut putting it right on *old* northern Bvd, by turn of the centry buildings, on a narrow street, was just plain stupid. hell, I would even take it back behind that health club heading towards greenvale, beyond the bridge...
Oh, and for the oyster Bay line, I believe the blame goes to Oyster Bay themselfs for not wanting electrics. Last I heard, Glen Cove wanted it. Sea Cliff is a moot issue - the line goes nowhere near there :)
My solution would have been to just cut the line to Glen Street. The OB could have their nice rural, run down feel, and Glen Cove could have a chance to thrive...
[ My solution would have been to just cut the line to Glen Street. The
OB could have their nice rural, run down feel, and Glen Cove could
have a chance to thrive... ]
That's the way is was built originally anyways :) (It was the Glen Cove and Hempstead RR, I think). The extensions to Locust Valley and Oyster Bay are "modern" additions..
Of course, it would be nice to keep service to Oyster Bay, if only to get to the planned site of the Loco 35 group museum, with the G5 steamer, the turntable and all. (The turntable is still right there, in a relatively accessible location, if anyone is interested in that stuff).
Metro North FL9's 2007 & 2013 which currently in the RailRoad's "Genesis" paint scheme have been sent to the North White Plains paint shop. Currently plans are to repaint the locomotives into the New York Central lightning stripe scheme, Complete with NYC lettering and logo's. Word is that the pair will appear at a "Future event" (Harmon open house?) It is unknown if they will go back into service in this scheme...Mark W.
There was an artist's conception in the book "Diesels to Park Avenue" showing FL-9's in a New Haven scheme similar to NYC Lightning Stripes. Maybe that's where they got the idea??
(They also have a couple green/yellow NH-type schemes, plus one in the simplified Alco FA-type NH scheme. Fortunately, the FL-9's never wore some of these poetically licensed ideas....)
Does anyone know if they are out of the paint shop yet?
IT HAS BEEN ACHIEVED!!
I finally rode on my first bi-level train today, the 12:21 Local from Oyster Bay to Mineola.
I took some nice shots of the locomotive, perhaps I could one day send them to be posted on this site??
My locomotive was DE15AC #403 with a 5-car set. My family and I took the upper level on the second car (the first was closed off). The seats were VERY comfortable and ergonomic. There's a male computerized voice telling you what the next stops are. Earlier reports on this web site say that this system was not working as it should, but all announcements were correct on my trip.
The only bad thing is the loud beeps made during the closing of the doors, but I think it's due to ADA regulations, so I can understand.
I detrained at Mineola and took two more trains to get to Woodside.
Perhaps next week, I alone will take a bi-level from Jamaica and Babylon to Patchogue just for the fun of it!
It was really a quiet and smooth ride. Aside from the loud beeps, I definitely recommend the bi-levels.
> I took some nice shots of the locomotive, perhaps I could one day
> send them to be posted on this site??
Sure thing! You can scan them and email them to me or wait till I get back if you need to make other arrangements (I could scan them for you).
-Dave
Speaking of pics, did anyone get some shots of the R110A being tested on the #7? If so, it would be great if they could get posted too. -Nick
Regarding those door-closing beeps, you do get used to them pretty quickly. I ride bilevels every day on the Greenport shuttle, and after the first week or two the beeps effectively became part of the background noise. The computerized station-announcement voice is a little harder to get used to, but fortunately the conductors on the Greenport Shuttle turn it off and make the annoucements themselves.
At this point what's the ratio of new Bi-levels vs. the old diesels? Is it 50-50 or has the balance tilted toward the bilevels?
[ At this point what's the ratio of new Bi-levels vs. the old diesels?
Is it 50-50 or has the balance tilted toward the bilevels? ]
My guess is that it is close to 50-50. I live close enough to Roslyn Station that I can hear the whistles as the trains go by, and it is very easy to hear the difference between the classic diesels, a DE30, and a C3 control cab. In the AM peak, 505 and 507 are both classic, while 509 and 511 are both bilevels.
Of course, this is only on the OB line, the black sheep of the system.
Speaking of Oyster Bay -- anyone seen the latest (August) "Keeping Track"? Oyster bay came in at the bottom of the pack with a whopping 74.6% On time record in the PM peak. Overall it was third from worst, only beating out Montauk and Greenport, with a 86.8%. How's that for a line that never leaves Queens and Nassau counties...
I have ridden the Bi-Levels about 20 times (but only one stop from Mineola to Jamaica) and also found the seats to be quite comfortable, if a little stiff - perhaps they'll soften up with age. I do find the automated announcements a bit distracting. I must have heard "This is the train to Long Island City; the next station is Jamaica" about 100 times so far!
"My locomotive was DE15AC #403 with a 5-car set."
Perhaps this is falling on a deaf ear but it is NOT repeat NOT DE15AC. It is DE30AC.......
Your next stop ....... The Twilight Zone
I'm getting screwed up now!
Please tell me if I'm correct now - the DE30AC was the one I took with AC propulsion, and the DE30DM with an electric shoe will be the next set out?
[ Please tell me if I'm correct now - the DE30AC was the one I took with
AC propulsion, and the DE30DM with an electric shoe will be the next set out? ]
Jose, That is what the other Steve said earlier, but I think he was mistaken. The two engines, which look more or less identical in appearance, are DE30AC and DM30AC. The DE30AC is what you took and is conventional diesel-electric, and numbered 400-422. The DM30AC are capable of operating via 3rd rail power collection, and are (or will be) numbered 500-522.
There is no DE15AC.
Does anyone have signal control line drawings for the following?
1) Myrtle Avenue EL to Bridge-Jay Streets Station.
2) Third Avenue EL in the Bronx and Manhattan.
3) Culver Shuttle.
4) 155th Street (Polo Grounds Shuttle).
If you do please make a posting. Thank you Subtalkers.
Any new information on the Manhattan Bridge? Are they still projecting year 2050? The work continues...
Maybe they should hire Roebling to build another bridge.
Or maybe Lincoln, and build a tunnel instead!
OK, how about John Holland and a second tunnel?
How many rim shots are we up to?
With a joke this dumb going on this long, its clear that none of us have any detailed inside knowledge of what is up with the bridge. But I did ride over it today. It appears the H tracks are done, but now they are painting, complete with lead removal. that could take a long time.
The real problem with the Manhattan Bridge as far as subway trains are concerned is the way it was designed, with the tracks on the outside instead of being in the middle. It appears that no matter what they do, the flexing and cracking will continue unabated. It's just a matter of time before a major catastrophe occurs.
By the way, they have resumed tiling the Manhattan bound Canal St. platform, and the new stairways are taking shape on the street. Hope they have solved the leakage problems, though.
The Leakage Problem Was Good. It Always Kept The Station Cool In The Summer
I wonder what Canal st. looks like today, after the deluge.
It's probably might actually resemble a canal.
Rim shot!!
What about Chambers St? Did it get washed away?
I hear that the MTA is just waiting for the next ice age so it can simply lay tracks across the ice to Manhattan.
I'll be driving on the Bering Bridge on my way to the Gibraltar Bridge before the construction on the Manhattan ends.
We will probably have a Second Ave line, the Flushing line to the Javats Center and the N to LaGuardia Airport before the bridge is done!!!!
They could build a new bridge altogether before they finish all of the necessary repairs to the bridge
Of course, we'll need the bridge. You'll have people from Brighton Beach going to Madison Square Garbage Station (Penn Station is in Newark) to get on the trains to Moscow, St. Petersburg and Kiev.
All aboard Siberia!
All aboard RusTrak!
The work on the third track seems to be progressing at a fairly brisk pace. The rails are in place west of the Herricks overpass and they have now started laying the concrete ties east of Herricks. Does anyone know when it is scheduled to be completed? Also, once it is completed, will the new track be solely used as a siding for the Oyster Bay trains, or will it also be used for through service, with the northernmost track sometimes used as the layup? Which tower will control the interlocking? Thanks for any information.
This question has boggled me for some time. Whatever it will be used for, I would assume that Nassau would have control over it.
I saw 10 cars of Pelham Bay trains (yellowish sticker on car) on the 9 line. Explantion please! Thanks.
Peace Out
-Clayton
Does one of these cars happen to be #1865 sighted on the 1 not long ago?
Are all of the numbers in the "19th century"? (That is 1800s)
Yes I think so. I saw the train mostly composed of 1800's and 1 1900.
I came accross this while looking through some NYD Bulletins. It's the Division B car assignments from July 30,1980.
A 240 R-40,104 R-46
AA/B 160 R-38,96 R-42
CC 80 R-10,138 R-46
D 40 R-32,180 R-40M/42,96 R-44
E 40 R-10,20 R-32,48 R-44,112 R-46
F 60 R-10,130 R-32,48 R-44,120 R-46
GG 88 R-10
J 106 R-27/30,32 R-42
LL 80 R-16,24 R-27/30,24 R-42
M/QB 176 R-27/30,24 R-42
N 200 R-32, 80 R-46
JFK Express 21 R-46
Franklin 12 R-27/30
RR 120 R-27/30, 112 R-32, 64 R-32
Notice how the R-42,44 and 46's were spread around. This was done to provide at least some air-conditioned cars on each line.
Larry,Redbird R33
What about the other 120 R-16?
I remember seeing some R-27/30s on the D during that time frame as well, and some of those were sporting DD signs.
Steve: I believe at that time they were laid up o/s. During the dark days of the late 1970's into the early 1980's the subway system came very close to total collapse. On one day I believe only about half the fleet was available for service. Riders deserted the subways in throves helped no doubt by the city buying brand new express buses for the private companies which siphonned off many riders. This decreased ridership lead to many cars being laid up out of service.
I may be wrong but I think this was about the time that the 6400s were laid up and never did return to service. The 80 or so 6300's kept on going until the late 80's.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As usual, thanks for the info. I met a fellow at Shore Line back in 1985 or '86 who was a transit employee. He had a wallet-sized card which listed all rolling stock still in service, and I remember seeing 111 R-16s listed as being active. Did the 6400s have the troublesome controllers and resistor grids?
Supposedly, January of 1981 was when the system hit rock bottom regarding equipment being out of service; something like 30% of the entire fleet had broken down. I missed that entire dismal period; by the time I visited the city again in October of 1984, the system was beginning to rebound. The R-36s were beginning to appear in Redbird red.
The low point in subway service came during the years 1980 and 81. Graffitti was out of control. But the worst came one freezing monday morning in early 1981 when less than half the fleet made it out for the morning rush. I remember that morning. I was waiting at least a half-hour for the 'F' train when at last a broken down crawling 'B' train pulled in. Needless to say the heaters were inoperative. My co-workers had similar subway war stories that morning also. It was that day and other incidents which forced the city and state to make serious efforts to bring the system back to life. As others have noted, by 1984 service was much improved.
Don't forget that was the height of the R46 truck problem. I think Jamaica Yard was at least 20 trains down for morning service. Waiting for a train at Queens Plaza was an event.
I remember this well. It seemed to happen overnight. At the time I was in high school and I had a summer job. I remember coming home on day on a D train of R-46's. The next day (or after the weekend). I was at Tremont Ave waiting for a D train when I heard a CC train train enter the station and it was awfully quiet. I looked and to my surprise it was a R-46. Of course that that after I had to do some rail fanning on the IND/BMT and I was quite shocked, especially when I saw the R-10's on the E.
Wayne
R46s started to run on the CC as it was a part time service and there would be less stress on the trucks. They had to print up decals for the side and front signs as the R46s at the time only carried signs for the E, EE, F, GG, and N. The CC and D readings were put over the old EE readings and the E readings to the Rockaways.
I believe they also printed up E & F decals for the R-44.
What is the deepest station in the system?
Is it Rooselvelt Island or a station on the A line?
191 on the IRT is the deepest, by about 10 feet. Roosevelt Island is next.
How about the IND's 181st Street station? Is it moved down to 3rd?
There are two categories when it comes to station depth: below street level and below sea level. 191st St.-St. Nicholas Ave. is the deepest station below street level; Roosevelt Island is more than likely the deepest below sea level.
That's definitely true.
The stations in Washington Heights are deep because the avenues they run under are on top of huge hills -- two or three of the stations are just one flight down from "street level" on the next avenue over and are accessible by tunnels into the hills from those avenues. A neat thing to see if you haven't done it already.
Chuck
Again, another set from Corona has arrived on the IRT mainline, travelling to 239th St Yard on the 2/5 (spotted about 10:30PM, heading north). It was a 10 car set, with an R33 World's Fair Car on each end.
Question: What could TA personnel be doing that the Corona R36s have to travel to a yard in the Bronx??? Steve???
-Stef
Two years ago, I did see an R36 World Fair train on the #4 line. I am also wandering about the reason.
How about R110A testing on the #7 line? Does it receive passengers on the Flushing line?
The 4 probably didn't have sufficient equipment so an extra train was sent from Flushing over to the 4. 9558-9569 have been on the IRT mainline multiple times. They were on the mainline out of 239th St Yard back in 91, operating the refuse train before the R127 work motors arrived.
Meanwhile, the R110A is back home on the 2. It's stay on the 7 was very brief. I would think that it would have to come back in service at some point, if they want to try and work out the R142's problems for the last time.
-Stef
How do they get equipment on to the # 7 line ? Do they switch onto BMT lines at Queensboro Plaza and they switch back to IRT lines somewhere else?
This is just a guess,but...Probably go down the Broadway BMT line down to somewhere on 4th Ave where they can switch back then over the Manhattan Bridge, up 6th Ave,CPW and the Concourse up to the Concourse Yard....right???
A division cars except R33S have tripcocks at the right side, and B division cars have tripcocks at the left side. R33S has tripcocks at both sides.
In order to let IRT cars to run on B division tracks, R33S has to be the lead car. Sometimes two R33S are put as both lead car and end car.
Therefore, in order to put Flushing cars to IRT main lines, they switch to Astoria line at the upper level of Queensboro Plaza station, and then Broadway line to Coney Island.
Then they travel to 8 Ave IND line to either 207 Yard or Concourse Yard because these two yards have connections to IRT main lines.
Chaohwa
Plenty of times they will send IRT cars over to the B division, to 207 Yard or CI Yard for certain work in the Main Shop, and they just send cars with head out trip cocks on the right side. Anytime they make this move a B Division motorman must operate or pilot. I made a transfer of this nature once but since I was both A and B Division qualified a pilot was not needed. Extra care must be taken not to pass red signals.
One scenario would be going all the way to Coney Island via the N line, then all the way back to the Bronx via the D line.
A set comes out of Corona and heads down to Times Sq and reverses, now heading up to Queensboro Plz and crossing the switch to Beebe Av on the N. Come down south on the N and go to 57th St 7th Av and change ends and head up to Queens Bridge. Now at Queensbridge, you change ends again and head down to 34th and 6th Av. From 34th and 6th Av you head up to Concourse Yard which will take you onto the IRT.
Any questions???
-Stef
The transfer changes ends at Hunterspoint ave most of the time if it's feasible.
Ok.... I wasn't sure, but I have heard that a tower in Hunters Point controlled the switch there. If there's no one on duty, then the set goes down to Times Sq unless Queensboro Plaza gives the transfer a call on to wrongrail into Queensboro Plaza upper level. That, I wouldn't expect to happen too often.
-Stef
Queensboro can turn trains at Hunterspoint Ave.
[ Again, another set from Corona has arrived on the IRT mainline,
travelling to 239th St Yard on the 2/5 (spotted about 10:30PM, heading
north). It was a 10 car set, with an R33 World's Fair Car on each end. ]
Am I right in remembering that the R33's on each end were most likely there for the B division portion of the trip, since they have off-side tripcocks available, and the R36's don't?
That is correct.
Hey there! I have a question on the Fulton St El.
The section of the Atlantic Av complex over Snediker Av contains the Manhattan-Bound Canarsie Track and a long abandoned track from Fulton St. Observing the abandoned trackway, this track doesn't turn into Fulton St, but it goes into the Flyover Track heading down onto the Broadway Brooklyn El. My question is, was there a Broadway-Fulton St Service at one time? This must be what was K2 track before it was taken out of service. Speaking of which, how long has that track been abandoned?
Thanks,
Stef
After the western portion of the line was abandoned, service was rerouted down Broadway and the Lexington Av. line.
There was a Lexington Ave.-Broadway-Fulton St. service which, I believe, ran only during rush hours.
Stef: I believe that the present northbound platform at Atlantic Av located on Snediker Av is the original one at that location. This is pre-dual contracts. Once the reconstruction was completed this became the present northbound platform. The outer track would have been K2 while the inner track is of course P2. There has been some track re-alignment at this point. Before the end of the Fulton Street El a third track formed just north of the platform which became the northbound lead into the Fulton St El. This lead also had a turnout to the yard track Y2. The northbound K2 alignment however then became J2A and crossed over the Jamaica Line and turned west to access the lower level. Inbound trains from P2 going to J2A actually passed over the inbound lead to Fulton St.El. This is somewhat different from the present arragement. As for service over this route I don;t believe that there ever was a Broadway-Fulton Street Service as such.
It seems that trains ran Broadway-Jamaica and Fulton-Fulton except for the Canarsie Line which ran on Broadway until the 14 Street Line was completed. After that there was the #14 Bway-Bklyn trains to and from Atlantic and Canarsie which would have used the J1A and J2A trackage.
Fulton-Lexington El service began in 1940 when the Fulton St El was closed west of Rockaway Av. As I'm sure you know this ran on the Fulton St El between Lefferts and East New York, the Broadway El between there and Gates and then over the Lexington El. This naturally would have used the J1A and J2A trackage. This was probably the last service to use the K2 track at Atlantic.
I'll did a little deeper into this tonight to see if I can find some more information.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Eric and Steve B: Thanks so much for the info, I wasn't sure.
Redbird: Thank you. I wasn't very sure about the configuration, which will be a thing of the past very soon. The TA will get their way and the Snediker Av portion will be gone, as is part of the complex on Van Sinderen Av. The lead to ENY won't be affected greatly, other than the fact that the turnout to the lead would be modi
I somehow managed to post an incomplete message. My apologies to all who read....
-Stef
Eric and Steve B: Thanks so much for the info, I wasn't sure.
Redbird: Thank you. I wasn't very sure about the configuration, which will be a thing of the past very soon. The TA will get their way and the Snediker Av portion will be gone, as is part of the complex on Van Sinderen Av. The lead to ENY won't be affected greatly, other than the fact that the turnout to the lead would be modified.
I was thinking about Bway-Fulton service, since I had seen that abandoned approach sometime ago. I wouldn't have expected any real service to come from say, Broadway Ferry or even Delancey St unless we're talking about the days before the structure was rebuilt and the AB Standards came on the scene. The ABs would not have been able to transverse the Fulton St el, so a Broadway Fulton Service was not reality. Do some research and tell me what you can find about the pre-dual contracts era. Track maps are a plus!!! I'd like to see before and after track maps of the Atlantic Av-ENY complex, one of the most sophisticated sections in the system. Now what if the Fulton El had been completely rebuilt (Ashland Place)? Chances are it would be a branch out of Dekalb and ABs would probably run on the structure. At least a section of the el was rebuilt between Nostrand Av and ENY, I believe. This could have impacted the conversion of the el to IND specs.
Lexington Av El service was an appropriate substitute to get passengers from Lefferts Av (Blvd) to downtown Brooklyn when el service ceased operating west of Rockaway Av.
Fulton El and Canarsie Trains crossed at grade, eh (pre-1919)? Fascinating!!!
Thanks Again,
Stef
Stef: I think the easiest way to do this is to contact me at RedbirdR33@hotmail. Let me know if you don't get through. I believe I have the information that you need.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Thank You....
-Stef
[Now what if the Fulton El had been completely rebuilt (Ashland Place)? Chances are it would be a branch out of Dekalb and ABs would probably run on the structure. At least a section of the el was rebuilt between Nostrand Av and ENY, I believe. This could have impacted the conversion of the el to IND specs.]
What would have been nice is if the IND wasn't built out to Euclid, and instead, picked up the el in Fort Green (somewhat near where the Ashland Pl. connection would have been). New sections would have had to have been built to Nostrand Av., and from Pennsylvania to the remaining portion on Liberty. Then, the massive ENY complex would be in full use, instead of being dismantled now. 75ft cars would run through a portion of the Eastern Div. (that is, if they could have negotiated the curve from Fulton into the Atlantic Av. station. If not, they may not have ever ordered 75 ft. cars)
Service would have actually been somewhat the same, (rush hr express only, although, one way, JFK running on local track reverse peak dir.) until 1988, when midday rush hour service started.
The drawback: no connection from A to J.
Most of my Subway Buff friends know that the Steinway tunnel carries the #7 Flushing line to Queens on a daily basis, B-U-T can anyone tell me what TROLLEY line built and first used that tunnel ?
Part two: What was the fare and did the tunnel turn a profit for the company ?
Hit 1: William Steinway & August Belmont had something to do with it.
Hit 2: But it wasn't the Steinway & Hunter's Point Railroad.
Mr t__:^)
The tunnel was built by Steinway (Piano man) to connect to his lines in Queens. It was started by the East River Tunnel RR to try to connect the LIRR to Manhattan but that didn't work (the PRR did it at 33rd later). It was reogranized as the NY&LI RR Co. and that's when Steinway came aboard. However, a construction mishap halted construction until the line was purchased by Belmont who ran a test trolley in 1908. However, the city didn't give him a contract to run the line and it closed. The IRT purchased it later and the line was converted to subway and opened in 1915. Extensions brought it to QBP and out to Astoria and Corona. Later the Corona was extended to Flushing and the tunnel across 42. I got this from THIS SITE, but U didn't peek before writing this (I didn't peek for a while, I swear).
The Steinway tunnels have steeper grades than the Joralemon tubes. Until the R-12s and R-14s came along, specially geared Lo-Vs had to be used. Naturally, they were known as Steinway Lo-Vs.
Makes you wonder if the R-68s could make it up those grades, if you could make them fit.
Your answer is basically correct, except for the name of the company.
It was New York & Queens County, now known as Queens Surface Corp. To get the, made for the line, trolleys their they had to take track from the rear and put it in front.
Also it was William Steinway vs. Henry Englehard Steinway. Henry was the panio man. Anyone know the relationship between these two men ?
My thanks to fellow SubTalker Jorge Gutierrez who pointed me to a ERA article in their April 1960 Electric Railroads, The Steinway Tunnels, by David Rogoff.
BTW, In case you're wondering I'm working on a history of QSC, from bus-substitution to current ... at least that's what it started out being. I'm up to about eight pages and have a couple of copies out there being read with a critical eye by fellow SubTalkers. Another ocossional SubTalker has promised to help with photos. It may also be put to some use with in the company, but soon I'll post it for all to see. Also thanks to Peggy Darlington for inspiring me to undertake it.
Mr t__:^)
I wonder if the Second Avenue could get built as a separate subway for snobs, with an express bus fee and a second fare for transfers? The MetroCard would certainly make this easy -- there are monthly cards that include express buses, and that include commuter rail, right now.
The territory it goes through -- the East Side of Manhattan -- is very rich. If it were connected to Grand Central and (via a new tunnel) to the LIRR's Flatbush Terminal, it could be a super subway for those living in Manhattan and the suburbs. And if those are the only people it served, perhaps those are the only people who would pay -- through a reimposition of the commuter tax and a special taxing district on the East Side. Perhaps they would be willing to pay, if the service was for them (and not for us).
Would it be worth it to the rest of us? That depends on how many riders would be diverted from the Lex, and how much the new system drains common funds away from the existing system. Certainly almost everyone east of 3rd Avenue, and everyone changing from commuter rail, would ride the Snobway -- for an LIRR or MetroNorth rider, it would cost no more than the subway. And if the new system counted toward the suburban share of the TBTA surplus, rather than the city share, it might be equitable. The higher fare for non-transfers. and automated operation might allow the new system to break even on operating costs.
Of course, if the affluent had an alternative, they might let the whole system go to hell (again). Still, this may be better than nothing.
Metrocard technology would make a premium subway service (The "$" train?) possible because you can program the turnstiles to deduct any amount. But do you realistically expect any 2nd Avenue line to be constructed in light of the fact the the MTA does not expect the surpluses to go on indefinitely? So far the whole 2nd Avenue issue has only served to give Mark Green and other elected officials free TV time. No one in local government is really looking at or even wants to recognize the impact of telecommunications technology on employment trends. We are talking about people who think that manufacturing jobs will return to New York City. Even the New York Stock Exchange is starting to doubt it's need for a huge new trading floor and office building on Broad Street. The entire financial community may also need less space and on-site employees over the next ten years as the impact of the internet changes the nature of their operations. Executives may well remain in NYC but many other employees will be working from home or remote locations by dialing into a server that can be anywhere in the U.S. where rent is cheaper.
I doubt that people will never travel to the office again, but I agree that many will do so less frequently, or at off hours (ie. work from home in the morning, come it for meetings in the afternoon). That's good for transit -- less rush hour congestion -- and I agree that we don't need more capacity overall. That doesn't change the fact that the East Side is poorly connected, both for the subway and the LIRR. The idea is saving time.
As for non-professional computer-based employees the aren't going to work from home. They are going to be automated out of existence. We're already down several hundred thousand clerical/secretarial jobs from 1970, and we have much more office space, but we still have a shortage of space.
Well, there you go again:
Last week we had a T/O take his E train into a power off area where a G.O. was in effect. A conductor opened his (thank God) empty train over the street at Far Rockaway. A T/O hit a home signal yesterday on the A. A T/O ran the mome signal at the interlocking at Stillwell Av. Then he recharged and continued. One car went through the switch on one route, his second car went on a different track. Sounds like your toy trains as a kid huh? This really happpened.
Training is really inadequate. There is a management reason for this though. It's RTO's belief that if they have a enough probationary employees when the cotract with TWU expires, they will be able to run a skelotonized service using only the probationaries and the supervisors.
They figure beause they are probationary and can be fired without the usual procedures that they will come to work crossing picket lines. Using this warped logic they will run a sunday schedule.
Hence the current hiring binge, and the reduction in training time, to get these people on the road ASAP. Also the massive disciplinary effort being brought to bear against our veteran crews. We not only make more money than probationary employees, but for every one of us they fire, they can hire a probationary for December.
They really are afraid of us, that they go to such lengths. Which helps explain why they hold us in such contempt.
BUT, from the members I speak to, a strike is not only supported in RTO, it's wanted. There are a lot of Conductors particularly who want to strike, just to get even for the poor treatment of the last few years.
I don't support this because everyone looses in those situations. And incurring the wrath of the riding public is not how you win support. But sometimes it's all a union has left. Look at what happened at SEPTA. If Reuter and Hoffmann want to play hard ball, what choice will we have/
As Frank Corrall/Dick O'Neal would say, "Oh, nothing. One train went off to a GO area; a C/R opened up on the wrong side; a T/O hit a home signal; another T/O did the same, and another train split a switch. Aside from that, everything's ginger peachy."
How the heck do you HIT a signal?
-Hank
Unless you derail, you don't hit a signal anymore than you can 'run' a stop sign. You pass a stop sign. Now perhaps you can explain the following:
How does a train operator "throw his train into the hole?"
What does the dispatcher want you to do when he says, "take (him)her in the hole and double end (him)her!"?
or how do you %
Is this a sex question?
My guess is, you'll be taking the train into a lay-up area, and changing ends to operate in the opposite direction.
-Hank
Don't forget that somewhere during the course of the day it may be a put-in....
Unless you derail, you don't hit a signal anymore than you can 'run' a stop sign. You pass a stop sign. Now perhaps you can explain the following:
How does a train operator "throw his train into the hole?"
What does the dispatcher want you to do when he says, "take (him)her in the hole and double end (him)her!"?
or how do you "Split the train in the hole" and if you do, how do you get it out of the hole?
How does a train operator "throw his train into the hole?"
By dropping the button :)
What does the dispatcher want you to do when he says, "take (him)her in the hole and double end
(him)her!"?
Unless you a referring to an obscene act with a brake handle,
a quick relay move at a terminal with a sunken relay yard, such
as Continental.
or how do you "Split the train in the hole" and if you do, how do you get it out of the hole?
With one more motorman than it took to get into the hole.
Did we ever resolve the origin of "battery run"?
I thought putting a train in the hole was putting it into emergancy or dumping trainline air.
"I lost the slave and put her in the hole"
or something like that. But this was a story from an x-Slamtrack F40 driver on a Silver run to FLA.
You reach your hand out and go "Bad Signal!" as you pass it.
You could also whack it with a baseball bat or 2x4.
passing a signal at danger, trains tripping device hits signal trip arm putting trains brakes into emergency =hitting signal or overrunning signal
And us Motor Instructor/TSS's on the road have to deal with the poorly trained and sometimes uninterested T/O's that come out to the road. Does anyone take pride and interest in the job anymore. It's discouraging. I don't mind helping new people, I actually enjoy it, but they are really undertrained. When people don't know some of the basics of the signal system it's sad.
School car is all numbers(the super of T & Q). A good deal of the school car motor instructors take pride in their teaching but some of them are new and some of them are pressured to push the people through so the numbers look good.
Also, sounds to be like the T/O can't read switch points. He needs to go back to school immediately without pay.
The old twist as I call it. Train runs a red signal, trails a switch in the wrong position and then operates in reverse. Part of the train is on the original track and the rest of the train is on the adjacent track governed by the position of the trailing switch. In other words, it twists between the two tracks and rips out signals and other equipment in it's side swapped path.
Is is want happened Mr. Transit Professional?
Luckily, the T/O stopped at that point for some reason, so they were able to get both ends of the car back on the sane track and send it back to the yard. However, the entire episode killed service on the N and B lines for about an hour and a half.
Yes but I bet every one of the managers and supervisors involved has bee to 'Managing Diversity' "sexual Harassment prevention' and 'ADA Compliance'. I even went to 'Ethics & Vendor Performance' and now have little or nothing to do with vendors.
What is the highest velocity the train will go. I read somewhere up to 40 miles per hour. However, I don't believe that. It seems to me that it is able to reach much higher speeds.
One R-40 or R-44 while testing on LIRR reached a peak speed of 80 miles per hour. Also you should ride the 4 line. Sometimes they reach speeds of 45-50 miles per hour between 125 and 86 street.
R-62#1350
Try the 4 under the east river............
3TM
40 mph is reachable at certain locations with the right equipment. Typically, trains going downgrade through an East River tunnel will reach 50 mph at the lowest point.
Of course, back in the good old days, the R-10s on the A routinely roared along CPW at 50 mph at least.
In the past few months, as cab doors have been propped open for air conditioning, I've noticed a couple of times that we've gotten up to about 45 mph on the 2/3 and 4/5, both south of 42nd Street in Manhattan. These were, of course, the exceptions ... often we'd never go above 30-35 mph.
Those are nice straightaway runs, too. In fact, the stretch down Park Ave. South is the longest ruler-straight run on the entire original Contract One portion. No reason in the world why you couldn't do 45 on either of them. Certain equipment can easily reach 40 mph - the Redbirds, R-62s, R-38s, and slant R-40s, for instance. The R-68s have to huff and puff just to reach 30 mph.
after modification(no field shunting) top speed on level track is 40 mph. any speed higher is due to down hill grade...
Pre-modification most of the newer trains (R-10? & up) had specs around 80 m.p.h. The new tech trains, R-110's, had a spec of 80 m.p.h. max. While the fastest train ever tested, I don't know if it ever had any actual road service) was the State of the Art (SOTA?) train which had a max speed of 82 m.p.h.
Of course, the trains seldom ever got up to this speed as there is no real open expanse for thw trains to run, with the exception of the Rockaways and some other express runs). Plus with signaling and the distance needed to stop one of these trains they seldom went more than say 65 m.p.h. Although I was told by an oldtimer that they used to fly on the A line 125th to 59th st, he said he could get upto around 75, fast enough to rip the newspapers out of passengers' hands while they were waiting at a local stop. Of course this was pre-spedometer so I can only say he was estimating.
Anyhow... The trains now are modified so that the motors wont let the train get above 45 m.p.h. on a flat track. On a downgrade the fastest I have ever gone was 62 m.p.h. from Lex to QueensBoro Plaza on the N line.... incidentily it was on a R-68, and about 60 m.p.h. going from QueensBoro to Lex.
Anyone have any other specs?
Later,
Chris
Let me correct myself before anyone goes bullistic over my post.
I just checked the ACTUAL spec sheets for a few car types. All list the max speed as 55 m.p.h./88.5 km/h. This is I would guess pre-mod as most of the spec sheets are old. The R-110b spec sheet lists the same speed. However, I was told that the original spec was for 80 m.p.h. as it was based on the SOTA train.
As for my stating the trains probably went 65 or so, I am wrong. However, based on the way one can get a modified train to move I don't think 65 is out of the question.
Later,
Chris
The R-44s got up to 83 mph or so when they ran tests on the LIRR. One thing to remember is that a confined space such as a tunnel always gives the impression of greater speed. Noise seems to contribute somewhat as well. The R-10s had enough of both (speed and noise) to the extent that it certainly FELT as though those A trains were doing around 60 along CPW. Now, if you take the 6000 and 2600 series cars in Chicago and put them in the Dearborn or State St. subways, ay-ay-ay!
Is it just me or do trains with General Electric controllers accelerate faster than say one with a Westinghouse controller?
All NYCT trains witht he exception of the R-44 and R-46 and the R-110s were designed with a balancing speed of 50 MPH. Of course track grade and other variables permitted trains to get up to 60 MPH in spots. The R-44s and R-46s had balancing speeds of 80 MPH and a specially modified R-46 easily exceeded that on test out west.
Of course that was before they were all modified.
The MTA and D.O.T should completely close down the lower portion of the bridge and reconstruct it so that the tracks are in the middle and the roads on the side, or in another configuration. But to do such a thing would require a large sum of money. So that they build the new tunnels on both sides of the river, reconfigure the tracks, make the new roadway, Close up the original tunnels and reroute the roads and both ends of the bridge. That would cost a lot more then what is being done. The MTA and DOT do not want to put up the money. How much would it cost to do such a project anyway, maybe 25 million, 50 million or more? Also would the center configuration be 4 tracks or 2 tracks so that the N line can run as an express again.
Moving the tracks to the center was rejected because there is only room for three tracks. But I think that if DeKalb was connected to the Rutgers tunnel, two bridge tracks (or a two-track tunnel) is all that Brooklyn would need. With three tracks, a spare could be used if one was out.
Conecting Dekalb Ave. to the Rutger tunnel has 2 major drawbacks. One would be that it would limit the amount of service on all Sixth Ave lines (B, D, F). That line couldn't handle the present day rush hour service on the B, D and F. The second would be that there would be no service from Brooklyn to Grand St. Grand would have to become a terminal.
Better idea: Build 4 tubes for subway service and convert the present trackways on the bridge to roads. Faster train service, more lanes for traffic. Everybody wins.
> Better idea: Build 4 tubes for subway service and convert the
> present trackways on the bridge to roads. Faster train service,
> more lanes for traffic. Everybody wins.
Of course, that would do away with probably the most scenic ride on
the entire NY subway system!
-- Ed Sachs
Well, the subway system was built for commuters, not sightseers. You'd still have the view from the Williamsburgh bridge.
(Build tunnels rather than Rutgers connection).
The Rutgers connection could never replace the bridge, but it could replace part of it, and save wear and tear. The Q could become a 6th Ave local via the 63rd St tunnel.
I'd like to see a second connection -- from the Nassau St. Subway to Grand Street, as proposed by RPA as part of its Second Avenue Plan. In that case, the bridge could be used during peak hours only, and all stations would be open off-peak.
[I'd like to see a second connection -- from the Nassau St. Subway to Grand Street, as proposed by RPA as part of its Second Avenue Plan. In that case, the bridge could be used during peak hours only, and all stations would be open off-peak.]
That gives me an idea. If they connect Nassau to the space behind the walls at Grand, they can do this now, while the bridge is still open, and it would provide an alternate route when it closes. The area between Chambers and Canal would have to be reconfigured to eliminate the grade crossing.
This shouldn't be too hard. The Chrystie st tracks are only on the other side of the H tracks and 3 traffic lanes from the Nassau tracks. And isn't there already a section of 2nd Av. dug out around there, so that maybe all they would have to do to connect Nassau to Grand St is knock out walls?
You could keep the connection to both lines if you closed down the outside tracks on both sides of the bridge (which would even out the stress on both sides of it as well) and built a flying junction at the Manhattan end to allow access to both the Grand St. station on the B/D/Q and Canal on the N/Q. Then build the Rutgers connection for the B to use, move the Q back to Broadway and keep the D serving Grand St.
[ How much would
it cost to do such a project anyway, maybe 25 million, 50 million or
more? ]
Whoa! MUCH MUCH more. If I understand this, you propose building two east river tunnels, moving all kinds of stuff around on the bridge, and then closing the tunnels?
Firstly that would cost billions of dollars. Secondly, if you're going to build tunnels, why close them?
Are there any track connections between the LIRR and The subway system? I know years ago trains could go from the Bay Ridge Row down McDonald Av to the C.I. Yard but are there any connections now?? Heres why I'm wondering. I'm reading a book about the old Rockaway LIRR line and was wondering why they dismantled the el in Far Rockaway that ran from the LIRR Far Rock station to the Far Rock IND station. Seems like they could have used it to deliver new subway cars from other railroads.
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit page
[ Are there any track connections between the LIRR and The subway
system? I know years ago trains could go from the Bay Ridge Row down
McDonald Av to the C.I. Yard but are there any connections now?? ]
That connection is in the same area, take the LIRR bay ridge line to the South Brooklyn Rwy to the 4th Ave (?) line. Also, there's a connection near the Linden Iron Works between the Bay ridge line and the Canarsie line. They've even used it rather recently to get stuff to/from the Eastern Division lines (J/Z/M/L).
This should probably be a FAQ.
Also, there's some other places where easy connections _could_ be built. I.e. the 7 line to Port Wash LIRR near flushing, or even 7 line to LIRR/AMT east river lines near hunterspoint ave. These connections would only be able to fit IRT equipment, though, so not as useful.
Thanks!!! It still seems silly that they took down that connection at Mott Av though.
[ Thanks!!! It still seems silly that they took down that connection at
Mott Av though. ]
Perhaps. I don't know how long ago that was removed, but I think there is currently "stuff" in the way, and the Mott Av terminal of the A train is elevated. Even if a connection still existed, that connection wouldn't be as useful, if only because it's so far out at the edge of both systems -- kind of a hike just to xfer equipment..
It was removed in the late 50's when the IND took over the Rockaway Line. The LIRR used to go over the EL to Rockaway Park.
According to the track map of the Linden Shop area, the connection from the Bay Ridge LIRR and the Canarsie line was removed. I haven't been there in years so I'm not sure what is right.
[According to the track map of the Linden Shop area, the connection from the Bay Ridge LIRR and the Canarsie line was removed. I haven't been there in years so I'm not sure what is right.]
The direct connection between the LIRR (now NY&A) Bay Ridge line and the Canarsie line has been removed. A connection still exists between these lines (also to the 3 train) within the Linden Shops.
[ The direct connection between the LIRR (now NY&A) Bay Ridge line and
the Canarsie line has been removed. A connection still exists between
these lines (also to the 3 train) within the Linden Shops. ]
Although it's probably NYA running 99% of the trains there, I'm pretty sure the line is owned by LIRR, not NYA. NYA probably has just trackage rights. I don't know if they actually own any property. They may own several of their locomotives, but I think they're leasing most of them from the LIRR also. They're presently also leasing Yard A (in the sunnyside area).
Guys, since I ride the Canarsie Line everday I can tell you with much certainty that yes, there still exists a connection between the subway system and the LIRR.
There is a 'Y' el structure with the left arm connected to the #3 New Lots line and the right connected to the Canarsie southbound track. This single track line has no third rail, but surprisingly has full TA system signalling. The two arms intersect above the Bay Ridge tracks and descend as a single line into the Linden Shops' surplus track yard. At that point, there are a number of switch-overs where the subway-LIRR transfers can take place.
BTW, there is still a remnant of the old Bay Ridge/Canarsie Line interchange: just north of the southbound New Lots Ave. platform are remaining roadbed and ties leading under a gated fence into the LIRR trackage. (I have a picture of this someplace). Best viewed/photographed from the northbound platform (at #1 car position).
Doug aka BMTman
PS -- according to a TA worker, the switch was removed as late as 1991 (probably when the 'Y' connection was built).
It *is* in the faq but I just read it again and the info in it is incorrect (it lists the connection at Linden as being still present.) I suppose I should fix it. :-)
Legend has it that a connection was put in at Atlantic Ave. so that August Belmont and his party could go from the basement of his Manhattan hotel out to Belmont park over the LIRR. You can still see the spot where the connection would have been.
That's another of the FAQ, but Atlantic Ave was never intended as a place to move cars between the lines, just Mr. Belmont's Mineola.
Mr t__:^)
This a morbid question for fans of the older subway cars but...
When a particular type of subway car is retired (like those in the early 80's), where are they sent to be scrapped and what is the procedure for scrapping them?
Are the subway cars literally taken apart piece by piece?
Are the car parts melted down for resusable metal or are they placed in a crusher like automobiles?
Thanks.
[When a particular type of subway car is retired (like those in the early 80's), where are they sent to be scrapped and what is the procedure for scrapping them?]
A scrap dealer's called Naporano (or something close to that) in Jersey City has gotten much of the business in recent years.
In the past, carbodies have been cut up after having been stripped. Other parts such as motor armatures have been melted down and recycled. Other artifacts such as straps and rollsigns find their way into antique stores, transit museums, restaurants, and stores. Subway Stamp Shop on Nassau St. had rollsigns recessed in their walls.
The thing is, not much about recent subway cars is indicative of what we like about the subway, and suitable for display. I guess you could stick a roll sign in a wall, but where else would you put it? The control panel isn't much. I guess the only artifact I can think of is the emergency cord. You could install it in your bathroom and attach it to the flushing mechanism.
The trucks, motors and control boxes are of recent (1980s) vintage. They cost a zillion dollars. The I assume they will be kept and reused until the R62s are retired and the whole fleet goes AC with regenerative braking. True?
When the redbirds are retired, the trucks will not be compatible
with anything else. They are not the same as the trucks under
any B division equipment, although with a great deal of work you
could possibly modify them. The traction motors will be usable
as spares for B division equipment. The Westinghouse CAM control
boxes are going to be replaced with E-CAM and so will not be of
much value. The GE SCM-1 boxes would be good spares for B-division
cars. Air compressors will be re-usable.
I believe Car Equipment's plan for the R62/62A/68/68A cars is
to outfit them with A/C traction and controls compatible with
the 142/143 order when they reach their twentieth birthday or
so, which is coming up in a few years (wow!). The 44s and 46s
will probably not be rebuilt a second time.
Other than the bulkhead roller curtains on the Redbirds, I agree.
Wait a minute - the mechanisms should be salvaged and reinstalled on the R-32s and R-38s.
Wednesday August 25 07:45 AM EDT
NYCTA Cracking Down On Second Jobs
The New York City Transit Authority is cracking down on employees who illegally work second
jobs.
The T-A says many of its employees have sensitive jobs involving the safety of the riding public and
need to be alert and ready to perform at optimum levels all the time.
T-A employees have to get approval to work other jobs.
---
The above is from Yahoo! News Headlines. Typical of the arrogance of management: underpay and/or underemploy (casualize) workers and force them to get second jobs (hey, it's not like anyone takes two jobs because they want to sleep less, or because they have too much spare time on their hands), then blame these second jobs for problems that are truly the result of poor or nonexistent training. Same thing as at UPS, and that's one of the issues which drove the Teamsters out onto the line...
Skip S. Topp
Same thing with the NYPD. To legally moonlight have have so many forms that you have to fill out & get your Commanding Officer to sign, and so many restrictions, it takes months to get permission. But if your caught working without the permission you risk suspension and/or the loss of 30 vacation days!!! But at least Rudy gets paid enough where he doesn't have to moonlight.
>But at least Rudy gets paid enough where he doesn't have to >moonlight.
Are you kidding? He's moonlighting all over the state, and around the country -- even went to Arkansas to moonlight there!
Skip S. Topp
I was wondering why I saw notices posted at my depot requesting resubmission of dual employement forms for everyone.
Just thought the paper pushers had nothing better to do.
Is it almost complete?
At Coney Island is it neccesary to put so many timers in. It's a straight track. Why not make it like Brighton Beach?
I was wondering if anyone could post a list of the LIRR train numbering plan, Like for instance the Por Washington trains are all numbered in the 400, or 300 series, etc. I don't live in NYC, and have little access to LIRR paper resources.
thanks, Dave
I'll give you a few of them:
Ronkonkoma trains are numbered 2000 and up Even east - Odd West
Trains from or to Farmingdale are 2300 series
Weekend trains are 8000 and up
Montauk/Patchoque/Speonk trains are 2700 and up
Weekend trains are 8700 and up
Port Jefferson Trains are 1600 and 1700. Weekend trains are all over the place
Babylon trains begin with 0002 east and 0003 west but trains to different zones like Massapegua or Wantaugh are 1000 while freeport is 1100 and so forth. I won't even begin to describe the weekend schedule
[ I was wondering if anyone could post a list of the LIRR train
numbering plan, Like for instance the Por Washington trains are all
numbered in the 400, or 300 ]
I used to have an ETT, and have this all figured out, but I'll go from memory now.
First, some conventions: The "series" numbers are all based on the eastern terminal. I have never seen any correspondence to the western terminal in the train #s. Even numbers are Eastbound, Odd numbers westbound. Usually, there are seperate sets of numbers for AM and PM trains. Unless otherwise indicated, numbers x00-x49 are AM, x50-x99 are PM Equipment (empty moves) trains are usually in a series that is 3000+the regular series. Weekend trains are 6000+the regular series. I'm including the "end" numbers, although not necessarily all trains in the series are actually scheduled.
00-99: Babylon AM
100-199: Babylon PM
300-399: Great Neck (in either AM or PM, I think they may start/end at little neck)
400-499: Port Wash
500-599: Oyster Bay
1501: East Williston (one train, 7:28AM)
600-699: Port Jeff
1600-1699: Huntington AM
1700-1799: Huntington PM
700: Hempstead
800: Long Beach
2800: Far Rockaway
900: West Hempstead
1000 and 1100: (shorter runs towards babylon, i.e. terminal is freeport, wantagh, etc)
1200: Hicksville
1300: (Farmingdale?)
1400: (Jamaica?)
2000: Ronkonkoma
2700-2729: Montauk
2730-2759 (speonk or patchogue)
2760-2790 (the other of speonk/patchogue)
I forget what the greenport scoot's # is..
Equipment trains carry the same #'s as regular trains, except for +3000. I.e. 3500 would be the first eastbound AM equipment train to Oyster Bay, and 4701 would be a westbound equipment train from Huntington. Weekend service is +6000. I forget what weekend equipment stuff uses, as simply adding 9000 gets numbers greater than 9999, which I don't think they use..
There are some oddballs out there also, like 2800 (It is around LIC in the AM), and some that end with 99. NYA trains start with "RS", i.e. RS30, which I think passes Jamaica eastbound around 9AM.
I have a couple of questions.
1)When the F & E use to terminal at 169St. were the express tracks already in place?Also how did they go back?
2)Why does the F extend past 179st. when it already has a uses 2 yards.The Jamaica & Coney Island.
3)How is it hard to open both doors on each side on new cars?
4)What is the fastest express line in the MTA?
1. The locals terminated at 169th Street; the expresses at Parsons Blvd. They used the same crossover switches they use today to turn around.
2. That's not a yard there; just a layup track. They use Jamaica Yard as primary storage; Coney Island for repair and secondary ("F"'s only- the "E"'s, "G"'s and "R"'s sleep at Jamaica Yard)
3. I don't think the new cars are geared for opening both sides.
4. Fulton Express is very fast; so is Brighton Express, Queens Express and Central Park West Express. 4th Avenue Express is only fast between 36th and Pacific. Hard to say which is fastest. Fastest stretch may be in the 60th Street tunnel, where the grade helps the trains exceed 50MPH. On the IRT, the 7th Avenue Express gets mighty fast.
Wayne
Speaking of fast trains, my brother and I believe that the opening train view on NYPD Blue is the 7th Ave. express track between Chambers and 14 Streets. Anyone know for sure?
Also, the 6th Avenue Express section between W. 4 St. and 34 St. is pretty fast.
I read this on this board before.
If you mean that subway view they use just before the trains "crashes" into the badge at the end of the credits, that's the IND station at Utica Avenue.
Before the renovation, of course. Nowhere else will you see the same high ceiling and Tuscan red tile but at Utica Avenue.
Wayne
On point #2 F trains are only stored in Coney Island Yard. They may be looked at by Road Car Inspectors but they are never shopped into the Coney Island barn. These cars are maintained by the Jamaica barn(R-46).
IS THERE ANYONE OUT THERE WHO LIVES OR VISITS DETROIT AND
HAS RODE THE DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER D.P.M.
DOWNTOWN DETROIT AND IT HAS A RAILFAN WINDOW !!!!!
AND ANYONE COMMENT ON THE LOS ANGELES CALIF RED LINE SUBWAY
THE BLUE AND GREEN LIGHT RAIL SYSTEM METRO ???
What, specifically, do you want to know about the Blue, Green, and Red Lines in Los Angeles?
I'm thinking of taking the family to Branford, Ct. tomorrow. I've never been there. Is Thursday a good day? What time should I get there? Any suggestions or advice??
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit buff page
Thursday isn't any particular day at Branford. It will be just
a regular summer operating day with probably two trolleys on
the main line. Usually a quiet day. As with most volunteer-oriented
museums, the bulk of the membership is up on the weekends.
On this particular weekend, I'll be there Sunday, as will Stef.
Thursday looks like drizzly weather too.
Thanks for the info.
Since you're presumably a subway and/or new york transit fan,
the best days to visit Branford in 1999 would be October 9 or 10
when the museum holds "Autumn in New York" weekend.
Thanks, will try to go then too, even though its easier to find an R10 on the Port Jefferson Branch than it is to get a day off in the NYPD!!!
Anyone out there know (for certain, not conjecture) where the Salisbury Plains Station on the Central Branch of the LIRR was. Was it in Salisbury Park (now Eisenhower) by the golf course or was it just west of Merrick Av. (As I live in East Meadow I would love to know where my nearest station would have been had they had the foresight to leave that line there!!)
The SARGE-my homepage
my transit BUFF page
Within the last two weeks there was a thread on this page with a link to someone's web page, including photographs of the right-of-way through the park and a history. I can't find it on a quick search, unfortunately, but I think the information you are looking for is there.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I just saw a video documentary on the 3rd Av El (The Disappearing El) made in 1950 while it still was in operation. The narrator states the daily ridership is 270,000. Where did these people go? The Lex? First & 2nd Av buses?? And remember there was also a 2nd Av El and I'm sure the population on the East side increased greatly in 50 years. So is there any rational argument against the 2nd Av subway?? Remember, they took down the El with the subway in mind, not because of ridership!! The 2nd Av is needed much more than the Rockaway LIRR branch to JFK!!!
The Second Avenue El departed in 1940. Many of the riders of the Third Avenue ended up on the Lex, some went to buses, and those who could get street parking permits decided to drive.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I have a question about that documentary...would it be the same one that they showed in the NYC Subway Museum (Bklyn) during the 1980s? I saw it there on 7/4/86.
At 9:45 p.m Wednesday night, all 10 cars were going through Queensboro Plaza to Corona from 239st yard. I heard it on the radio.
I knew it!!!! Why else would they come out of 239th St in the evening? There were no tests being held in the evening, so something fishy was going on here.
I think I'm going to head over to Corona and get a snapshot.
-Stef
The set has returned home again from it's short stint at Corona. The train passed north of 149th and 3rd Av, heading to 239th St Yard this afternoon at 4:20PM.
-Stef
HAS ANYONE OUT THERE RODE THE CITY OF DETROIT PEOPLE MOVER????????? THE SUBWAY TYPE CARS HAVE A RAILFAN WINDOW!!!
Yes, my son rode it a year or two ago and brought me back a token for my collection. It shows a elevated car on a single pier.
He's home for a couple of days, so if you have a specific question ask away ... but he's NOT a rail fan so I dought he sat by the front window.
Mr t__:^)
I rode the Metroliner from DC to NYC yesterday. I haven't been on it in a few years. It is now like a BIG TELEPHONE BOOTH. Everyone had a cell phone, and was YAPPING YAPPING YAPPING the whole way. While on commuter trains you get teenagers gossiping and spouses with reminders to pick up the milk, these were high-stakes businesspeople doing deals. And they were LOUD. I think the airlines have the right idea about banning cell phone usage -- even though it's for (alleged) safety reasons!
By the way, I saw an ACELA trainset on a siding just outside of Philadelphia 30th St. station. [Further on ACELA service, a usually reliable source tells me that the project is seven months behind, and that service won't start until January. Even then, it will only be a few trains per day, with some single tracking between New Haven and Boston.]
Wow! A 114-dollar ticket to NYC! That is about the same with a round trip non-reserve ticket from DC to NY with AAA discounts.
My last ride of Metroliner was June 6 from Wilmington to DC. Even that was a weekend Metroliner.
BTW, does any discount apply to WEEKDAY Metroliners?
Chaohwa
There are no discounts on weekday Metroliners.
But it was a nice ride .. except for the CELL PHONE HELL.
Still, at $115, it's $85 less than a walk-up fare for the airline shuttles from DCA-LGA.
Saw a piece in yesterday's newspaper that Amtrack and several commuter lines are considering restricting cell phone use to one or two specified cars, just like smoking cars a few years back.
It's about time!
At the beginning of July, there was a woman on a train I took from Albany to NYP who not only spoke out loud on her cell phone, but on one of her calls was ordering something, and she gave her entire name, spelling it out, then her address, apartment number, telephone, and credit car number with expiration date. All of that as if nobody else was in the car--it was about half-full--and I was about ten rows ahead on the river side.
Aside from the bad manners (as bad as the earphone people who play their tapes and CDs so loud that they can be heard five rows away), the stupidity is unbelievable. I really think a lot of the public cell-phone users are just trying to impress other people.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
[ the stupidity is unbelievable. I really think a lot of the public
cell-phone users are just trying to impress other people. ]
What, with how inconsiderate they are?
I think everyone knows that these things are pretty cheap these days, and pretty ubitiquous. It's not like a cell phone is a symbol of the elite anymore.
Anyone who gives out personal information on a cell phone while being within earshot of other people is just asking for trouble.
[ Anyone who gives out personal information on a cell phone while being
within earshot of other people is just asking for trouble. ]
Not to mention the many millions of radio recievers out there capable of receiving analog cell conversations.
I will never even use my cordless phone to inquire about my credit card. I've owned a scanner for 20 years and yes my Cell Phone Freq are not blocked. And even today's scanners that come with cell phone freq blocked are easy to modify to allow them to pick up non digital cell phones.
What about digital cell phones? Aren't the conversations encrypted?
Not exactly encrypted, in the strictest sense of the word, but it's close. Scanners can't legally pick up the digital signals (and never have had the capability in that frequency range, as far as I know) and the digital signal uses a standard algorithm that contains a key, so software is required to translate the signal from bits and bytes back into sound. Plus there are three different digital protocols in use in this country, depending on whose network you're on. The newest top-of-the-line phones can operate on all three, but many phones being sold today can still only operate on two or even one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Now, you see, I would have, after she was done, asked her if *I* could use her credit card number, to order a few things, then recite the number back to her....
Philip Nasadowski writes, "Now, you see, I would have, after she was done, asked her if *I* could use her credit card number, to order a few things,then recite the number back to her...."
Don't think I didn't think of that, but with all of the sexual harassment charge possibilities nowadays (even outside employment situations, where that term is more commonly used), I wouldn't have dared. And if her apartment were ever broken into, I might have wound up as a suspect. I just blanked it out as best as I could and thought of other names and numbers, which worked.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Anthony, e.al., don't mean to take this tread off topic, but I have an interesting point.
At this job site you're amoung the "in" middle/upper mngt. if you have a cell-phone. I don't but my three lunch mates do, so folks always know how to get in touch for that hour. I find some of the calls very funny ... we're trying to get in touch with Thurston, would you have any idea where he is ...
At home when my daughter's bill gets too large, I take it for a while and don't leave it on charge ... mean old Daddy |:o)
Mr t
My employer furnishes me with a cell phone so that I can be contacted 24x7 - the only time I turn it off is when I'm attending services at synagogue. I don't make a habit of making long calls while travelling on public transportation, but occasionally they are a necessity. Cell phone users, at least if they have a decent-quality phone (and there's no reason not to nowadays) don't have to shout. Common courtesy says keep the conversation quiet, just as you would if you were talking to the person next to you. Common sense says don't say anything over the phone that you wouldn't say in a crowded room full of strangers - and, as has been pointed out elsewhere in this discussion, a lot of people seem to be lacking in both of the above qualities. But don't ban them - unlike smoking, they're not hazardous to the health of those around you.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
A good place would be the 'cafe car' on AMTRAK. Also these are the same idiots who bring those damn things on vacation with and conduct business WHILE ON VACATION! And then they wonder why they have ulcers by age 35.....
Hmmm ... maybe it's time to have "quiet" (no cell phone) cars.
For NARP and maybe AAA members, the 10% discount is good weekdays for trips beginning between 9am-2pm, and after 6pm. I think the 15% Student Advantage discount applies during those hours as well.
I like the quiet car idea - I had to switch seats on the West
Trenton express to Philly this morning so that I could read in
peace. Admittedly, it's a public place, but when you can hear
every word with perfect clarity of a conversation going on behind
you, it's a little loud. (Such fascinating conversation, too -
"can you believe that she went and out to the store and bought
3 potatos instead of 4, and the soup, well...") Ay!
I remember being on a Boston-NY Amtrak train a couple of years ago where the guy in the seat behind me was excited because it was the first time he'd been on a train. of course, I knew this because he used most of the 4.5-hour trip to call on his cell phone [seemingly] everyone he knew to tell them this!
At least he was excited about being on a train. I hope it was on time.
I've heard some amazingly whiny cell phone conversations from people who were on trains that were 2 minutes late...
The train was more or less on time (which to me means within 5 minutes of schedule), but he had problems keeping his cell phone connection throughout the entire route, especially just east of NHV and out in some of the more remote areas along the eastern CT coast.
I've heard people complain about a train being late when it was actually on time, but their watch was set 5 minutes fast. sheesh.
Did you catch a Red Bird from Penn to our favorite radio station ?
BTW, It was a pleasure to wake up with you "YAPPING YAPPING YAPPING" in my ear this AM ;-)
Mr t
Nope, Mr. T, I took the E.
Well, I have a break midday. But it looks like I picked a bad day to do railfanning. We're reporting nearly every line in the alpha-numeri-bet with problems.
You think you picked a bad day. I was planning to bring my family to Branford today!!! Never been there. Well there's always tomorrow!!!
Actually, you can't use cell phones on the plane because it won't pick up. You can use the onboard phone, which on my last flight was on EVERY SET OF SEATS. Before that there was just 2 or 3 for the whole plane. Now if you had a sattelite phone, you can talk on the plane.
There is also an on-board phone on the new bi-levels.
Is this like the Rail-Call on Metro North?
I don't know. It looks like a regular pay-phone. Its on the non-bi-level part of the car, near the door. The initial charge is $1.75
I don't know. It looks like a regular pay-phone.
Its on the non-bi-level part of the car, near the
door. The initial charge is $1.75
I've ridden the Metroliner a couple of times. It was definitely a cell phone/pager and laptop party going on, but it's such a nice ride - and expensive! I only ride the Metroliner (and the Delta Shuttle) on Business travel.
Wayne
On the subject of Acela: I had dinner with a friend of mine who works for the Amtrak Reform Council (yeah, the bad guys), and he says that the "four inches two wide" is exactly true. Apparently, since it's an active and not a passive tilt system, they need to allot space based on a worst-case scenario: on a curve, outside train tilts in (correct) and inside train tilts out (absolutely incorrect). For most of the corridor, this isn't a problem, but there's places on the shore line where there's just not enough track separation. Will they expand the ROW and lay new track? Or will they instruct engineers to turn off tilt between New Haven and Kingston, RI, and thus completely negate the benefits of the tilt for the NY-Bos run? (Apparently, it's that stretch where they were banking on the most time-saving). This is the million-dollar question that's currently being debated by the higher-ups. Whatever answer they come up with, I feel confident that it will be the wrong one.
Skip S. Topp
I thought Amtrak had decided to reduce the maximum allowed tilting angle to compensate for the extra 4 inches?
There has been a lot of traffic on the Usenet about whether or not Acela will succeed. Even more about how militantly they hate the name. I think some folks on the usenet might use violence to change that name, if the situation presented itself. Anyway...
There are those on the net, including some who work for Amtrak in New England, who will tell you that two years from now, Acela will go from Boston to NY in maybe 4 hours. (Amtrak is claiming they will do it in about 3hrs 5 min). And there are many who say they are right on track. At this point, unless you know someone who really knows the _whole_ situation *firsthand* and is very honest and impartial, you just have to wait and see what happens. There are a lot of insiders saying "can't be done" and a lot of knowledgeable journalists, eg Don Phillips, who seem to have cast a skeptical eye and said "looks like it will be done."
I begin to think that those who work for Amtrak are so jaded that their impressions of things are not worth consideration, but that may be too optimistic.
From what I read, I may believe that certain parts of the caternary project may have been many months behind a few months ago. Perhaps they are catching up with the blitzes and all but closures of lines near boston in the last few months.
Nothing about rolling stock delivery seems to be that far behind. The trains are zooming around in Pueblo, and no MAJOR problems seem to have developed.
The schedule that Amtrak published was to put one trainset in service in late november, but not on the three hour Bos - NY schedule. More trains are supposed to go in service over the next few months, and the schedule is supposed to be sped up over the course of the next year. So in about 15 months, there is supposed to be ~ 3 hr service NYC - BOS. We won't know if Amtrak is going to deliver until then!
As for the Four Inches Too Wide. Its true, and really quite disturbing. Its not like they actually arrived, and Amtrak took out a measuring tape, and said, "hmm, thats kinda wide." But it seems like a very disturbing lack of communication or whatever between Amtrak and the supplier, which makes one wonder about things... However, It should not increase the schedule time by more than a few (like 3) minutes for NY - Bos. They are not switching off the tilting, rather, they are reducing the maximum amount of tilting. So, for passenger comfort, they need to reduce the speed a bit through certain curves. But the trains are roomier as a result. In the end, I imagine they will gradually try to move the tracks farther apart on the curves where it is a problem now. But they will be quiet about it.
The key to high speed rail is to eliminate slow stuff. Then they can worry about making the fast stuff faster. If they have brains, that is what they are thinking about now...
[Further on ACELA service, a usually
reliable source tells me that the project is seven months behind, and
that service won't start until January. Even then, it will only be a few
trains per day, with some single tracking between New Haven and
Boston.] gosh, this feels like 67-68 as we waited for the (real) Metroliners to start running. I suggest a pool with each participant pledging one buck to Steve's fave and if he would be willing a 'book' for the closest date to actual.
The FCC bans use of Cell Phones in the air, that is the federal regulation banning its use. The FAA leaves it up to the carrier when electronic devices can be used.
FCC bans it for a very good reason, one cell phone at 35,000 feet could tie up a lot of cell sites and crash parts of the system. Ever try using your cell phone from the top of the empire state buidling?
I've gotten some interesting conversations.
BTW,
NYC to Philly metro liner is $74, regular coach is $40 and NJT/SEPTA is $14/$9.50 to Trenton (RTExcursion/Oneway) plus $5/$6 Peak/NonPeak).
Metroliner aprox 1.25 hr
Northeast Direct 1.50 to 1.75 depending on number of stops (Clockers only stop Newark, Metropark, Trenton (sometimes).
NJT/SEPTA 2.5 on average (there are Trenton Express or Local trains).
The jersey Avenue NJT station in New Brunswick has a simmiliar platform arrangement to Princton Junction. but i see maps and there is no branch from the mainline at the station or is it a new branch because the catenary poles look new
Some trains terminate at Jersey Avenue, so I presume that's what it is for. I haven't been over there in a couple of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are actually two platforms at Jersey Avenue. One is directly on the southbound main and is used by trains to Trenton. The other is on a short spur track a little to the north of the main but in easy walking distance. This platform is used by trains terminating at New Brunswick. There are two tracks here and they are known as the Millstone Running Track and the No 5 Running Track.There is no platform on the northbound main.
Larry,RedbirdR33
[There are actually two platforms at Jersey Avenue. One is directly on the southbound main and is used by trains to Trenton. The other is on a short spur track a little to the north of the main but in easy walking distance. This platform is used by trains terminating at New Brunswick. There are two tracks here and they are known as the Millstone Running Track and the No 5 Running Track.There is no platform on the northbound main.]
I'm a bit confused ... where do riders board northbound (to Newark/NYC) trains?
Northbound passengers can only board from the spur tracks. There is no northbound main line platform. Some southbound Trenton trains will stop at the main line platform on the southbound side. Other southbound trains terminate on the spur tracks.
All northbound trains from Jersey Ave. originate on the spur tracks and then cross the four track main line to operate northbound -- usually as locals.
Essentially, Jersey Avenue exists as a rush hour commuter station -- that's pretty much the only time you can get a northbound train, although southbound trains stop through out the day and evening.
I don't know the actual history, but I'd guess that it was opened as a cheap fix to a parking problem in downtown New Brunswick.
Chuck
Greetings from the WCBS Wx Center this morning... flooding has caused a suspension of service on the east & west side IRT, and MetroNorth has shut down all three divisions.
And this is just a slow moving thunderstorm. Who needs a hurricane?
It also knocked out the 6th and 8th avenue IND's as well, as I can personally attest to. What happened to cause such a widespread loss of service?
The only thing good about today's disaster is that I was forced to take the Franklin Ave. shuttle bus and I got to see first hand the new station on the shuttle. Lookin good, but why is their no direct connection to the Queens-bound local on the AC?
What are you talking about? The shuttle will connect to both directions of the A/C.
I think ChrisR is talking about a PHYSICAL connection between the two.
Unfortunately, this is impossible as the A is subway at Fulton and the Franklin Shuttle is inevitably an El at it's terminal station. (Unless of course, the NYCT decides to build a subway-to-El escalator/elevator connection ala J/Z at Jamacia or the B'way/E.NY station).
Doug aka BMTman
Where is there a subway/el connection in Jamaica?? And by the way, don't forget Roosevelt Av Station between the IND & IRT
Yes, I was referring to a physical connection. I saw a nice covered passageway to the Manhattan-bound platform but nothing connected to the Queens-bound side. I don't see the big deal in building a passageway across Fulton to the other side. What are people who use the line in the afternoon rush coming in from the city supposed to do? Go out on the street (in that awful neighborhood) and walk half a block to the shuttle station??
The "new" building will be the entrance for both the shuttle and the queens bound IND. The street stair on the east side of franklin is just temporary
Well, if it exists in those two places (there is no such connection in Jamaica) it can exist at Franklin. The control house under the shuttle station will not only connect to the shuttle, it will be the ONLY WAY to access the Queensbound platform. Just because you don't see something, doesn't mean it's not there.
Well, essentially Jamacia has an elevator setup that gets you into the LIRR complex above the J/Z lines (even though it really exits to the street along the LIRR terminal). That's what I meant to say.
Doug aka BMTman
Penn Station had that Fall-of-Saigon aura this morning. Crowds were so thick it was difficult to move around. In fact, it took me over ten minutes just to *walk* out of the station!
I returned home after going 3 stops in Brooklyn, 1 hr 30 mins., and never leaving Brooklyn.
B D Q Trains running on the N/R line.
Chaos at Atlantic Ave.
I have been in communication with a friend who is a station agent (or whatever the proper title is nowadays) and was working this morning during the flooding. They have filed this report with me, and I thought I would share it with you.
When there is a condition requiring service disruption, Station Command uses a special telephone to inform us that: "Due to a water condition there is no service on the ... line from ... to ... Please issue block tickets." They do not tell us that other lines may also be out. I agree they should. We are stuck in our booth and have to clear the station as quickly as possible. We would appreciate it if a customer from another line comes and tells us "the ... and ... lines are also flooded."
The subways have pumps but they are designed for a certain amount of rain per hour, and not total rainfall. We could have rain of 10 inches over 24 hours - probably OK or we could get 2" in a half hour (4 inches per hour rate). If the pumps are designed for, let's say, 1 inch per hour (I do not know the rating) then the water accumulates.
I agree we did a poor job this morning but in the booth we do not know what is going on one block over!
Todd and company did an excellent job of keeping us informed.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
[ Penn Station had that Fall-of-Saigon aura this morning. Crowds were so
thick it was difficult to move around. In fact, it took me over ten
minutes just to *walk* out of the station! ]
Yup. That's why even though there's less flexibility (and a reliance on the 7 with no walking), I took my usual route to Hunterspoint. Penn is enough of a Zoo in the AM that no service on 6,7,8 ave probably made it downright dangerous. The NYPD TA divisions were reporting crowd conditions on all the 34st stations. Yuck. Definately would have taken longer that way. I was only delayed less than 15 minutes.
You're right, Penn Station was so crowded this morning that it probably was dangerous. Someone could have fallen and been trampled by the crowds.
The really unlucky people this morning were those looking for trains out of Penn. The mobs streaming *out* of the station were so large that it must have taken an eternity to get *in* - by which time, of course, one's train probably had left.
At 7:30 this morning on the downtown E platform there was a waterfall from above for a distance of about 4 pillars, at the back of the platform there was water blowing up out of a manhole cover. Two E's and one C came in stopped but did not open any doors. In the 15 min I was there the water rose from half way up the ties to almost the rail. Looking uptown you could see the flood in the tunnel. On the uptown side an A was in the station out of service and a second pulled in just enough to get one door on the platform to discharge. In the center of the platform the underpass had about 2 feet of muddy water. They told us to go to 7th ave lines, when I got there they were telling people to go to the 8th ave lines. I just walked over to the PATH and took that to the WTC, not many people know about that alternative.
What station were you talking about? Penn? Did you have to go through Jersey to get to the WTC by Path?
It is possible to use PATH from Midtown to the Trade Center via New Jersey. It requires going to Pavonia on a Journal Square-bound train, then changing to a World Trade Center-bound train (from Hoboken) on the same track. It's only a dollar, but Metrocards are not honored.
Many people did this to get from Penn downtown during the 1980 transit strike.
In addition to that, I read that PATH added direct train service for this route.
Can they do that? I didn't know that PATH trackage ran from 34/6 through to WTC, without hopping through the Hudson Tubes...
Skip S. Topp
NO, Eric B is saying that they went from 33/6 through to WTC. In order to do this they would have to CROSS THE HUDSON TWICE!
We don't even need SNOW for the city to fall apart; now it just has to RAIN a little. I drove in to work and encountered no problems, but people who use the subway were still staggering at after ten-thirty with all kinds of horror stories.
Wasn't an original purpose of the subway to run below ground and be immune to problems on the surface? If it can't withstand a rainstorm, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose?
And what are we going to do if NYC gets a Hurricane?
We got 2 to 4 inches of rain this morning, just a tropical storm could bring 8 to 10 inches, and it does not have to go over NYC, one that landfalls over Long Island could bring a good 7 inches of rain to the city, probably disabling the subways for weeks.
Does the city/MTA have any alternative means of transporting people after the hurricane? If today is any indication we are in BIG trouble when the next one hits.
When I was waiting for the 6 last year at 51st and Lex during a big T-storm, there was litterally a flood of water pouring down the stairway and onto the tracks. A maintenance worker had to open one of the storage room doors and run for his life as a torrent of water came pouring out of there, too.
I remembered that reading about this morning's problems on the 6 and how "in flight hostess" Joe Hoffman was ordering coffee for people stuck on one of the trains.
I i i i i'm cccoonnnnffffuuusseeeeeee.
N Broadway Local
Well I made it in to work at Van Courtlandt around 7:30AM. At around 8AM I heard there was no No.1/9 Service so I put my radio on and bam it seemed like everything fell apart. The whole subway systerm was shut. I heard a Police Radio say there was no service at all. 96 Street and Broadway was bad. There was a crowd condition a flood, Smoke Conditions and a sick and injured Passandger. 34 Street on the A,C,E was bad. Canal Street was bad on both No.1 and A,,C,E Lines. Also concouse Yard was closed. The N,R Lines where the first line to continue service and the No.6 was the last. On my radio all I could hear was everyone calling Control Center. There where lots of stuck trains in and between stations. As the IRT was at a stand still Van Courtlandt Dispatchor decided to run trains Between 242 St to 168 Street every 20 Minutes. One Problem the A Line was not running and caused a major crowd condition on the Platform at 168 Street. So Control order 242 St to hold back and do not send any trains down and also had to call the Control desk. So I almost went down but layed the train up instead. Also there was no No.7 service from 61 Street to Main Street. Also a No.7 Train at 111 Street had some kind of an Explosion. Now around 10AM there was some service.
No.1 from 242 St. to 168 St
No.2 from 135 St to E 241 St
No.3 unknown
No.4 from Woodlawn to 149 St
No.5 from Dyre to 149 St
No.6 from Pelham to Hunts Point
As the day went on there was massive signal Problems
The No.2 Line had problems between Gun Hill RD to E 180 St
The No.5 Line had problems from Baychester to E 180 St
The No.2,5 signal problems from Prospect to North of 3 AVE.
The No.6 was also a mess with Signal problems. Also there board indicated Power Off at one Point. Also there was flooding around 143 Street. Also there was a Report of smoke in the river tube on the No.6 Line.
Then around 1PM I was told I had to relieve a Midnight crew at 103 Street and Broadway. So I toke a Shuttle train to 168 Street and got on a C Train to 103 Street and walked over to find NO TRAIN. Then they told me to report to Chambers Street. So a 1 Train pulls in and got on that to 59 Street to ride The A Train down to Chambers and walked over and reported to the Dispatchor who didn't know I was coming. I also found out I was the only crew sent to releive a another crew. So They decided to move the train out of South Ferry and I relived to T/O when he got to Chambers. This guy started at 10PM Last Night and it was 4PM when I finally taken over the train. He was on the road 18 Hours. So I was the First No.1 out of Chambers Street. The rest was turned back uptown at Times Sqaure. So I Got off the road at 5:50PM which was only 1 Hour Overtime. The Midnight crew also signed out at 5:50PM. The Dispather told that Mindignt crew to call the crew Office since there cleared around 6PM and have a 10PM report tonight. But they told him they will come to work at the reguler time. So if they are allowed to report back at 10PM then they only have 5 Hours from there finish to Report.
So that was the how the day went over Here on the IRT.
All service is now normal with some delays because of on going Signal Problems in some spots. But that may have been cleared or will be by Morning Rush Hour.
If anyone can add or know more about the Exposion at 111 Street Please Post. I got that of the Queens Transit Police Radio.
Nice.... I thought something was wrong as I started listening to my scanner at home. There were little or no 5s running down towards 149th St. Most got turned back at E180th St.
The 6 was probably the hardest hit. The Pump Train was dispatched out of Westchester Yard to 143rd St to flush out the water causing havoc on that line.
Let's see: There were no 5s running and number 6s from Manhattan to Hunts Point. So what happens as a result? A flurry of number 6s were sent up the 2/5, with at least one (or several) train(s) going to Dyre and yes the cars were carrying passenegers. How do you like that?
-Stef
Were any of these aforementioned '6' trains rerouted up the Westchester el R-62a's? THAT sure would have been interesting. (Not that there would be any railfanning during a crisis situation such as yesterday's.)
There were several varieties from the R62A, to the R36s, to the R29s.... A couple did carry passnegers, while others ran light through the area. How often do you get a 6 train that goes to Dyre Av?
-Stef
Things were so screwed up yesterday I heard that D trains were running out to East New York! My source must have meant trains assigned to the D line were re-routed to the 8th Ave. A train line. But he did say roll signs weren't changed in time, so this only added to the confusion.
R-68s on the Fulton St. line?!? That must have been one helluva mess. I can only imagine the reaction from startled passengers.
I saw a redbird #6 at 149 GC lower level yesterday
Can anyone tell me the progress of the work and the signaling on the Williamsburg Bridge and when the J/Z Line will be placed back in service on the bridge? Can I have the dignity of a response if it is welcome?
[ Can anyone tell me the progress of the work and the signaling on the
Williamsburg Bridge and when the J/Z Line will be placed back in
service on the bridge? ]
It seems to be going on or ahead of schedule. tracks all laid, 3rd rail in place, signalling work well under way.
[ Can I have the dignity of a response if it is
welcome? ]
Umm, I don't know what you're trying to say by this. I don't know if this means somebody is welcome or dignified, or not. It is a response, though..
The newspapers said it should be completed early September; after this morning's commute, not soon enough.
A working J/M line would have eased the utter mess at East NY this morning a LOT.
Does anyone have first hand knowledge of the work on the Williamsburg Bridge, signal system installation and when the tracks will be recertified to go back into revenue service? Newspaper accounts are ususally not accurate. In other works, lets have a progress report.
BTW, getting it back into service in Septemeber is a great accomplishment considering the amount of work done and the installation and test of a completely new signal system by Union Switch & Signal.
If you read the posts in the past it is a progress report. The signals are in place from what I saw on Sunday of last week and they were active and working. The 3rd rail is also laid from end to end and this is from observation and being a L.E.S. resident that travels to brooklyn frequently. I do agree with you that newspaper information is not always accurate but what I have been reading by the past posts including the most recent ones are very accurate.
Peace
DaShawn
i drove over the WB about 2 weeks ago. the signals on the approaches where lit (red).
I believe the 63rd St. four-track tunnel was built on shore and sunk, in pieces, in a trench and then attached (like the BART tunnel under San Francisco Bay). If I am correct, then does anyone know the cost per 1000 feet, in today's dolloars, and would it be possible to reasonably estimate the cost to build a similar four-track tunnel as a Manhattan bridge replacement? If so, what would be the estimated cost for such a tunnel?
Would the three-track center alignment proposal that's been discussed here recently actually eliminate the torsion problems of the bridge? If so, couldn't the existing trackways be converted to roadways? Could the bridge support an upper deck over the existing middle roadway that could handle yet more traffic? And is there any possibility that the city, or whoever owns the Manhattan bridge (and the Williamsburg and Brooklyn bridges, would get the political strength to charge tolls, as on the other bridges and tunnels? That money could help finance the tunnel. Free passage over these bridges is an outrageous proposition, since not users provide not even one cent for their maintenance, which has to come out of other funds.
Mike Rothenberg
I always figured that the city would charge tolls on the east river bridges if they had the land to put in toll plazas. Anybody know?
I better check my E-Z pass bill and make sure I wasn't charged for the Willie B!!!
Just put in EZ pass with camera enforcement. Anyone going through without valid EZ pass gets a $50 ticket with picture just like a red light pix.
When did the RR change to just the R?
in 1985, when the MTA officially dropped all double letter trains. All double letters were reduced to one, except the AA, which became the K and the QB, which became the Q. The Rockaway shuttle, called the CC, became the H.
The official date for the changeover was May 6,1986 however trains started carrying the single letters some time before that.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Ok, yes, I am being sarcastic. There were lots of problems.
Here's what I found first my firsthand experience, and then second what I overheard:
I took my usual LIRR ride to HP ave. Went more or less on time. Got a southbound 7 at HP ave, which seemed to operate more or less normally. Under the river, the conductor told us that there was no service on 6 Ave IND and 7 Ave IRT, but did not mention any other problems.
I got off at Grand Central and headed towards the downtown lex platform. Platform agents informed us there was no downtown service, and that we should take the 7 to times square for the N/R(!) Gee, there seemed to be a problem with interdivision communication there -- it would have been nice if the 7 conductor would have told us the Lex was shut down _before_ we got off!.
Anyways, I hung around, at the southbound end of the platform, and listened and watched the board. There was a N/B express in the station, and I saw them discharging it and gave it orders to take the diverging route 3 - 2 north of GC, where it ended up changing ends and going 2-1 and ending up running on downtown local. Before it changed ends, though, A S/B #5 train came through and into GC. This train, I later found out (asked the T/O) had turned at the 59st spur. As we've recently found out, they are laying up a #5 there during the day, and they had to get it out of there first. The uptown train that was at GC got new call 9:28 Grand Central, and was following us.
At 28st, we were confronted with a flooded trackway, but it did not reach the top of the railhead (although it did get up to the ball, it didn't cover it). It _DID_ however short the signals, and we had a string of 4 automatics at danger in front of us. Control gave us permission to pass them (via 40N), and we did so.
All in all, I only got to work about 15 mins late. If I had taken the platform agent's advice, and went for a #7 to Times Sq and then the N/R, I'm sure it would have been worse. I heard that there were crowd conditions all along the Bway line, as well as many other stations, including 51/lex, 34/8, 34/6, etc.
I think the affected areas included at least: Lex from BB to 125st (flood at 125), 8 AVE line Jay st to 59th (flood at 59?), 6AVE line in manhattan (same flood at 59?), and 7AVE IRT (dunno why.) There were lots of people stuck in tunnels on the 6,7,8 Ave lines in midtown and lower manhattan, and they were led off either by peeking the head of the trains into the stations, or by bringing another train up to it, xferring passengers, and bringing that train into the station. There also was some kind of manhole explosion at 34/6th.
All in all, a big mess. And this time I certainly saw how local authority could have helped, as control center was completely overwhelmed by the magnitude of the problems. It would have been much better if CC was just coordinating, and the tower operators could make their own decisions about their area.
Steve K, as I understood it, there was a flood at 14th street as well as 59th street -- talk about your NYC nightmare scenerios!
We should be lucky ANYTHING was running at all.
Doug aka BMTman
[ Steve K, as I understood it, there was a flood at 14th street as well
as 59th street -- talk about your NYC nightmare scenerios! ]
On which lines? I saw water up to the rail head (but not over) between 28th and 23rd on the lex, but 14th was fine.. I think you might be talking about the 8 Ave line, yes?
I was told by the conductor of a D train at Prospect Park that the IND 6th and 8th Ave. lines were all knocked out due to flooding. I immediatley surmised that this would be a horrendous problem and i quickly left hundreds of baffled straphangers to get the Franklin Ave. shuttle bus (which took 20 minutes to get to Fulton!). I was not aware of any problems with the IRT until I turned on the radio (to 880 of course, 1010 WINS sucks). I waited about 15 minutes for an A, running local at Franklin. I also noticed this was the same train I saw crawl slowly through on the Manhattan express tracks about 10 minutes earlier, so this train had to be turned around at Jay St.
The confusion at B'way East NY was horrible. Lines snaked all over the place by people needing to use the payphone. Everyone HAD to use the L, so the Willy B closing was a double whammy. If I was going into Manhattan instead of coming home I'd have just turned around and used this mess as an excuse to miss a day of work.
It didn't seem to rain hard enough in Brooklyn to cause a kind of flood which would knock out so many lines at the same time. It must have been a localized thunderstorm.
Part of that confusion was the fact that at the L portion of the connection -- the top of the escalators -- there were TA personnel (and members of the NYPD) who were misinformed telling the throng of commuters that there was NO A TRAIN SERVICE. And of course there were TONS of former A train riders going up the escalators to get to the L for Manhattan service. Well, truth was that once I finally got down to the A train platform, I got 'the real dope' as they say: A trains were running, BUT NOT TO MANHATTAN. All service was terminating at Jay Street.
BTW, when my train arrived at Jay Street, I did in fact overhear from TA personnel talking amongst themselves that with 'Tower clearance' they were going to try and send every other train through the tubes.
Doug aka BMTman
Almost all the IRT Trains were layed up. The No.1 Line ran a shuttle every 20 Minutes from 242 Street to 168 Street. The No.2,4,5,6 in the bronx also ran 20 Minute Shuttles
That's about all eye have two say ..... picked up a used one today, my samples are all still w/out VISA/Am Exp logo.
Mr t__:^)
I ordered a $15 PPR one on Tuesday, which means that I'm supposed to get it tomorrow. I also ordered a one-day unlimited Tracks Subway Cool card.
Unbelievable delays occurred on the 8th Ave. all the way back by B'way/East NY. It took 45 to get from there to Jay Street.
My A train terminated at Jay Street (about 9:45 am). However, some trains were proceeding -- albeit rather slowly -- into Manhattan.
Also, I would assume that Lexington Avenue trains were effected as well.
Anyone with similar problems?
Doug aka BMTman
I believe for a while the MTA was reporting that there was NO subway service through lower/midtown manhattan.
I do know that between 7:30 to 8:00am lines were shutting down very quickly. The 6th, 7th, 8th, Broadway, and Lex lines were all suspended by 7:45am.
I waited at Court Street for almost an hour this morning. The word on the platform, and from the motorpersons was that only the M, N and R trains were crossing the East River. No A,B,C,D,F,Q, 2,3,4, or 5 service to Manhattan. The E train was running on the Brooklyn Bound R Track. (Serveral Passed through Court Street while I waited). The Manhattan bound M was empty as that train doesn't really go anywhere. As you might imagine the N & R were swamped and running super slow. I let about 4 N,R's pass, unable to get on, when finally I jumped on an E train running the other direction, hoping to catch the F at 4th Ave. While on the E, there was an announcement that "all 6th Avenue trains were not running" So I got off at De Kalb and crossed back over to try the R again. 3 more R's passed before I was able to get on one. It took over 1 hour for super packed R to get from Dekalb to 23rd Street and no choices along the way. A woman on my train was trying to get to Washington Heights but was told that the A and the #1 were out.
I did hear that the G train was running, perhapse some people took it to Queens and tried to cross the river that way.
There is a bus that stops at 23rd Street and Broadway and goes Express to Brooklyn, does anyone know where it goes? I would like to try and take it home. I just need to get across the Brooklyn Bridge.
The bus I think you are talking about may be either the B27, B28 or B29. They all enter Brooklyn via the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel. The 27 goes to Shore Road in Fort Hamilton. The 28 to Cropsey Avenue in Coney Island. The 29 to Stillwell Avenue near the Aquarium. You should check the MTA site for exact stops.
Thanks. The bus I'm talking about stops on the Broadway Side of the Flatiron Building and costs more that the usual $1.50 fare. And claims to go express to Brooklyn.
I don't know about the X27/28/29 (not B!), that's probably it. Another set of busses go from 5th to Eastbound 23 for the FDR to the Battery Tunnel. These are the Command BM1/2/3/4. The BM1 runs to 56th Drive and Strickland Avenue in Mill Basin, the 2 runs to East 94 Street and Flatlands Avenue in Canarsie, Rush Hour service runs to Seaview Avenue and Pennsylvania Avenue in Starret City while some busses have ON REQUEST serice to Cozine Avenue and Ashford Avenue. The 3 runs to Neptune/Emmons Avenue and Shore Boulevard in Sheepshead Bay and the 4 runs to Lois Avenue and Gerritsen Avenue in Gerritsen Beach. None of these busses make any stops before leaving the Gowanus. You should take the M1 to the B51 at City Hall.
If these buses take the BB tunnel, what is the first stop on the other side of the tunnel. If they stopped right on the other side that would be good for me.
They don't stop until Church Avenue/Ocean Parkway or 65 Street/Third Avenue depending on their destination. That's why the local bus pair is the best option for you. M1/6 to City Hall, then B51.
A couple of questions about the Bway Bridge:
1. Is it really a drawbridge?
2. If so, has it ever opened up?
3. How does this affect subway service?
4. When is the last time this bridge opened up?
3TM
If you are referring to the 225th St bridge, I have seen it open numerous times before I left NYC in 1990. Every know and then it would be opened I assume for maintainence. I would also assume that it must be kept operational due to the fact the Harlem River is a navigable one
1. - No. It is a lift bridge. The entire roadway and trackway are lifted up between the towers to allow water traffic to pass.
2.- Yes. As Steve L. says, the Harlem Ship Canal is a navigable waterway.
3. - Depends. Usually it is only open for a few minutes, so there is a delay in trains leaving VC. However, every now and then the thing gets stuck open, leaving crews stuck on their trains for hours on end, doing long trips from the Ferry to Dyckman.
4. - If experience is agood judge, definitely sometime within the last month, probably within the last week.
The Broadway Bridge is a Drawbridge. What do you think a lift bridge is?
To the layman, perhaps they might be considered the same, but they are different. A draw bridge is drawn up at one end (originally, this was literally true, as chains were used to haul one end up while the other was hinged to the abutment; now it is usually motorized at the hinge end). A bascule bridge is a specialized type of draw bridge, utilizing a heavy counterweight and often [but not always] with its hinge some distance from the end of the roadway/trackway, so that part of the bridge actually goes down while most of the bridge is rising to clear the waterway. A lift bridge is raised at both ends to clear the waterway, while a swing bridge pivots, usually at the center of the span, to clear a channel for vessels to pass.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I thought that the bridge called a draw bridge is a bascule or double leaf bridge. A lift bridge or a swing-span bridge would be a subset of a draw bridge.
You're right - most modern (built within this century) draw bridges are of the bascule or double leaf type. But a lift bridge or a swing bridge is not a draw bridge, although the term is often used incorrectly in reference to them since they serve the same basic purpose today.
As an added bit of trivia, a true draw bridge - raised with chains connected to a pair of large drums, manually operated - was constructed on a private road near my home in North Carolina back in the early '70s. There was a small stream on the property, not really navigable except by canoe or flatboat, but the owner wanted to build a house for his son on the back part of the property and had to replace the old bridge there as it was badly deteriorated. So, being an engineer, he decided this would be a good challenge. The bridge itself was built from wood, as was most of the mechanism. It was so well balanced that a child could raise and lower it. I crossed it a couple of times each year with my daughter when she was selling Girl Scout cookies. It was destroyed, along with the house, in 1996 by Hurricane Fran and has not been replaced.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
For a look at what I think is a true drawbridge, ride the 6 train between Elder Ave and Whitlock ave. Just to the north the ( I don't know) Railroad crosses the Bronx River on what appears to be a drawbridge.
That's Amtrak's North East Corridor, Sir.
-Stef
Don't forget the Hamilton Ave draw bridge over the Gowanus Canal (Under BQE) single leaf but it tilts with one lift leg shorter than the other so it does not hit the expressway above.
And there's the dreaded Mill Basin draw-bridge, the bane of drivers on the Belt Parkway. I remember sitting for two whole hours whilst it was stuck in the up position - @#$%&*¢¥Pƒ!!!
Wayne
That bridge doesn't have to be open to sit in traffic there for 2 hours!!!
While on the subject of opening bridges, we have two in Boston which don't fit any of the above categories. Both are now out of service for water traffic, but still carry road traffic. They are on Summer St. crossing the Fort Point Channel and the Reserved Channel.
The Fort Point Channel bridge consists of two deck panels which sit on rails. When the bridge opened the panels would ride their little railroads onto a set of pilings off to the side at a 45 degree angle clearing the main channel. The deck structure today is continuous through the draw span, but the support structure, wheels and rails are all still visible.
The Reserved Channel bridge is still complete and was operable until a few years ago. It uses a single span on rails but is otherwise similar to the Fort Point Channel bridge.
Interesting - I'll probably be in Boston later this fall (my daughter is making the rounds of law schools and has both Harvard and BC on her list, fairly close behind #1 choice Columbia [too expensive, but she's hoping for decent scholarships and financial aid]) and I'll try and find at least one of them. Thanks!
Until next time....
Anon_e_mouse
There is a really cool movable bridge in Portland. It is double decked, with rail below and road above. The rail deck is relatively close to the water - maybe 20', depending on tides. The rail bridge can go up so that the rail deck is sitting only a few feet below the road bridge. The road bridge is still "closed," meaning open to road traffic, while the rail bridge is "open," meaning closed to rail traffic. Since many boats (Portland is a very active harbor) would not clear the rail bridge, but will clear the road bridge, this is very helpful. If a boat comes along that is too big for the road bridge, the whole thing goes up. I think it is called a scissors bridge? Alas, rail traffic is infrequent enough that the rail portion of the bridge is kept up until a train comes along. Portland is a very neat city to wander around in if you are interested in rail, bridges, or just about anything that gets discussed on this site - except, of course, for subways :( They definitely get rain there!
Anon-e-mouse: I've noticed that if you see a lift bridge, you can bet it will be a rail bridge. Moveable rail bridges might not be lift bridges, but lift bridges are almost always rail (or rail + road). I figured this was because rail bridges need to be quite strong, and it must be a challenge building a bascule bridge since the mitre rails need to come down next to each other - its a pretty small tolerance for such a large object. Now I wonder if is just because lift bridges are older. Comments?
Lift bridges have been around on the railroads for a long time, but so have draw bridges. You're right about the alignment issue - a lift bridge is easier to align than a draw (bascule or otherwise) - and I suspect that the strength and stability may also play a role in deciding which type of bridge to use, but there are a number of draw bridges on NJT's North Jersey Coast Line and they certainly are solid! The draw bridges seem to be for spanning relatively narrow bodies of water, lift bridges for spanning wider bodies of water where the piers can be located either on or close to shore, and swing bridges where there needs to be an opening in the channel of a wide expanse of water. On the NJCL there are both bascule and regular draw bridges and at least one swing bridge (on the Raritan River). The mitre rails really aren't mitered on most draw bridges; rather, there are large tabs in the bridge deck that force the alignment. Sometimes, of course, the bridge deck doesn't settle fully and that can have disastrous consequences, but side-to-side alignment is rarely a problem. Now with a swing bridge that can be a major issue, but it's usually fairly obvious to the operator so the chance of a derailment is rare.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
if you remember a few back a amtrack train spilt the rails a portal swing bridge in hudson county. the bridge was not aligned right. the brigde lifts a few inches before turning. i think a few car ended up in water.
I do remember that. No one ended up in the drink, but one train derailed and another sideswiped it. Fortunately, no one was seriously hurt.
I've never understood that part about the bridge raising a few inches before swinging. I don't know of any other swing bridge that does that (not that there aren't others, just none that I'm familiar with).
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Back with another example from Boston!
The Northern Avenue Bridge (out of service for vehicles but in service for pedestrians and boats) is a swing bridge operated by compressed air. At each end of the swing span are four large air pistons which raise the ends of the bridge, allowing locking bars to be retracted. The pistons are then released and the deck settles below the pier roadways and can swing. The process is reversed when the bridge closes. This one is an extremely endangered species as swing bridges go, with much political pressure to demolish it! Various redevelopment plans for 'saving' it are also afoot.
Also in New Jersey, the PATH crosses two lift bridges over the Hackensack and Passaic rivers (the Northeast Corridor crosses this latter one as well right at Penn Station Newark). NJT also has a drawbridge over both of those rivers on the Morris and Essex lines (by Meadows Maintenance Facility, and just east of Newark Broad St.), and a couple on the Bergen/Main lines across the Hackensack in the meadowlands. There's at least two bascule bridges on the freight line (sorry don't know the official name of it) that parallels the New Jersey Turnpike from exits 12 to 13.
Right you are. I've ridden across all of the ones on PATH/NJT/Amtrak and I've seen one of the bascule bridges you mentioned (must have missed the second one). The one I've seen doesn't appear to have been raised in 40 years or so and I would assume will never do so again as the turnpike is at the same level on a fixed bridge.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I'm pretty sure that's the Chemical Coast line of the old Jersey Central.
-Hank
Portsmouth, NH has an interesting double deck lift bridge. Bypass US-1 is on the upper level and the "B&M Eastern Main Line" (now the shipyard branch) is below. The main span is a full double deck lift, tall and wide enough to clear large freighters. It opens every 30 minutes during the summer for sailboats and commercial traffic to pass. A small channel at the edge of the river provides access for small boats through a moveable span which lifts up about 2 feet and then slides into the trusswork of the lower level of the bridge. I have never seen this operate, as it is left open most of the time during the boating season, and closed in the winter. Train service to the shipyard is rare, though it did get a mention in Railfan & Railroad a couple of years ago.
Is there a name for a bridge that rolls out of the way (i.e., moves like a lift bridge, except horizontally instead of vertically)? There is a small one in Queens that carries auto traffic over a branch of Newtown Creek East of the LIC yard. The whole bridge moves sideways, on rails.
If it swings on a hinge, it's a swing span bridge. But, what purpose is achieved with a bridge that slides to the side? Wouldn't the obstruction still be there?
The bridge that you are referring to is the Borden Avenue Birdge over Dutch Kills. It is called a "retractile bridge."
Larry,RedbirdR33
I'm having one heck of a time picturing that concept in my mind - I've spent a lot of time studying bridges (as an adjunct to this hobby, not as a profession) and I don't recall coming across one of those. Is there a photo or drawing of one anywhere on the web?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
There are at least two more of these beasts in NY. There is the Carroll St Bridge crossing the Gowanus Canal in Brooklyn and the Lemon Creek Bridge crossing Lemon Creek at Bayview Av in Queens I believe. These are of necessity short bridges and are cut at an angle.Part of the bridge is on tracks and the outer end projects accross the waterway. There is a picture of the Carroll St Bridge on p 150 of "The Bridges of New York" by Sharon Reier published by Quadrant Press in 1977.
Larry,RedbirdR33
The FDNY requires that all the drawbridges be openned on a regular basis in order to ensure that the fireboats can get through if needed.
I think this is about once a month. Interesting there are three railroad bridges on the Harlem River;Park Av,Broadway and Spuyten Duyvil.
Larry,RedbirdR33
There is one other bridge on the Harlem ship canal, at 207th street, this bridge however I have never seen open personally. But it would be a ssfe assumtion that it can. Incidentally this bridge affords a great view of 207th street shops.
There's a railroad bridge at 207st?
-Hank
I believe that at 207, it's the real Harlem River. BTW, that bridge at 207 is the ORIGINAL Broadway Bridge. It had to be replaced with a new subway capable bridge. It was moved because it was relatively new. The second Broadway Bridge was replaced in the 1950s while the first, having faced removal at the turn of the century and was older, still stands. It was removed for repair in the 1980s or so I hear.
I think there are also draw bridges on the IND to Rockaway and the LIRR to Long Beach.
Is the Long Beach bridge the only drawbridge on the LIRR? I'm wondering about the line to Far Rockaway, and also the line to Montauk - isn't there a canal somewhere in the Hamptons?
The Far Rockaway branch does not have any drawbridges.
I believe that there is a drawbridge in the Hamptons -- I can't remember the name of the body of water it spans.
The Shinecock Canal or Bay?
All draw mechanical bridges must be opened periodicaly to grease the gears. I do not know how often is often, you never see the Harlem River bridges open but I know they do it according to my wife's union paper one time they did an article on the NYC bridge operators all 22 or so of them.
If you like drawbridges, go to Chicago. Most movable bridges of any city on earth, I believe. (Also, immortalized by Jake & Elwood). Regular drawbridges (none with chains), bascule bridges, lift bridges. I cannot think of any lift bridges for roads, though - only for rails. Lake Shore Drive, a multi lane, limited access expressway, has a drawbridge (never seen it open - its very high). There is at least one double decker road drawbridge (mich ave) and at least two L/Road double decker drawbridges. Back in the seventies, Chicago got some sort of special legal dispensation to NOT open downtown drawbridges during rush hour- it could snarl up the whole city.
NY story someone told me:
City Bridgetenders went on strike.
But first, they left all the drawbridges up.
Strike was settled quite quickly.
I remember that strike. And it wasn't settled that quickly either. The bridge on the Belt just East of Flatbush was left open and caused tremendous problems.
When was this?
I really don't remember when. It was at least 10 years ago, maybe even much longer. Maybe someone out there knows.
Believe it was in June 1971.
June, 1971 is the winner! I remember that one really well.
Let's get things straight: There is a draw bridge at W. 207 St. (Fordham Road) It is for cars only! "The University Heights Bridge" The only subway draw bridge in The Bronx to Manhattan is the Broadway Bridge, which is a lift bridge. This bridge was NOT fully operational until the spring of 1964!!
What about before:
There used to be a "swing" type draw bridge there until Dec., 1961. For whatever reason the city decided to replace it. I was there & watched the new bridge being built & the old bridge taken apart.
Questions? Please e-mail me.
Not only did they leave the bridges open, they damaged the control gear so you could not just shut em.
"Lake Shore Drive, a multi lane, limited access expressway, has a drawbridge (never seen it open - its very high). There is at least one double decker road drawbridge (mich ave) and at least two L/Road double decker drawbridges."
Yep. Lake Shore Drive is also "double decker" -- the upper deck is limited access while the lower is basically a regular street (lots of bicyclists, joggers, and skaters). And the two bridges with an L crossing on the upper level and a street crossing on the lower level are Wells St., bringing the Brown and Purple Lines in from the north, and Lake St., which carries the Green Line in from the west.
There's a fair amount of "water taxi" and commuter boat (from the Union and Northwestern Stations to the foot of the Michigan Avenue Bridge and Navy Pier) service on the river, at least in the summer, but all of these boats are low enough to not require the opening of the bridges.
Good old Lake Shore Drive. At least they straightened out that nasty S curve at Wacker Drive. Now it's been shifted over to the west of Soldier Field.
I still remember when it had reversible lanes during rush hours. Ditto for Sheridan Rd.
"Ditto for Sheridan Rd."
The reversible lanes on Sheridan are bloody dangerous! I went to Loyola University and I can't count how many times I saw cars turn onto Sheridan into a lane that usually goes one way but is actually set to run the other way because it's rush hour. A sudden swerve into the correct lane, accompanied by a loud chorus of car horns and sometimes followed by the sound of sheet metal crunching hard on other sheet metal. Thank God the head-on collision is almost always avoided. The problem is that in many places, the only indication of the lane change are short orange cones spaced far enough apart to be missed by someone making a sudden turn. There are only a couple of places on the reversible portion of Sheridan Road where actual lane indicator lights (red Xs or green downward arrows) are used.
The few times I've driven that stretch of Sheridan, I always drive in the right lane so that I can be fairly sure nobody will be mistaking my lane for one going the other direction!
You mean Sheridan Rd. still has reversible lanes? I remember seeing it striped for four lanes of traffic in the early 70s, but later on it was striped for only two. Hollywood Ave. had directional arrows heading west from Lake Shore Drive.
IIRC, Lake Shore Drive no longer has reversible lanes.
BTW, I still remember what it was like trying to get onto Lake Shore Drive at the Museum of Science and Industry before the traffic signals were installed.
How is it decided that a certain bridge doesn't have to be moveable anymore?
If you look at the bridges across the Potomac in DC, a lot of them look like they used to be drawbridges. For instance, the whole bridge will be concrete with a section in the middle made of steel. On the railroad crossing, its even clearer that it was a drawbridge. But the bridge that carries the Metro across is not a drawbridge, I believe. How does this decision get made? Simply because there is no longer any shipping into Foggy Bottom or Georgetown?
The last sentence said it all....no shipping in/out of Foggy Bottom or Georgetown.
The Woodrow Wilson Bridge had to be a drawbridge as the Navy Yard was upstream from it.
Doesn't the current plan (for replacement of the Wilson bridge) call for a high span so that a draw won't be required?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
No, the idiot NIMBYs in Old-town Alexandria thought a high bridge would be unsightly. The new bridge will have 4 roadways, each with 3 lanes and full shoulders, one in each direction will be HOV. There will also be a walkway/bikeway. The bridge will be two spans for each direction (the walkway will be on the north end of the west/south/clockwise span). The new bridge will be 20 feet higher, at 70 feet and will not have to open nearly as often. To minimize permanent disruption on either end, the roadway will be covered with park decks on both ends.
Visit The Woodrow Wilson Bridge Project for more information.
Thanks for the info - I just reviewed the website. We travel that route regularly between our North Carolina and New Jersey homes so I'm sure I will have more than enough opportunity to watch the construction of the new one.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What's most interesting (at least to me) about this bridge is that it lies within three jurisdictions (Maryland from the east bank of the Potomac to the center of the river, DC from there to the west bank, and Virginia beyond the west bank). All three deny any responsibility for it, thus it is the only bridge owned and operated by the feds.
If you think the new bridge option is ugly (and it will take 13 years to build it!), you should have seen the proposed tunnel!
The Post so receives shipments of newsprint in Alexandria, via a terminal company located there. This company (Robinson something, i think) is one of the few boxcar customers in that part of the world.
Just thought I'd mention that I walked past a portion of the old Canarsie Railroad ROW(ancestor of the L train) -- by 95th St. and Glenwood Rd. -- and noticed a relic from it's past: a fence around the ROW on 95th has a sign (white w/blk lettering) reading "NO DUMPING - Property of New York City Transit Authority". This fenced in area seems to be used by local residents for parking cars/trucks and whatnot. I doubt if the TA still owns the rights to the ROW as there are housing developments along most of it south of Flatlands Ave. (including the school yard for Canarsie High School). Anyone know the legal rights to that property?
P.S. If Kevin Walsh is reading this: I will send you a gif of this fence with signage shortly.
Doug aka BMTman
I'm always reading!
I've seen that sign. More tangible evidence that the Canarsie 'trolley' once ran through there is the shape of buildings on Glenwood Road, and a very tall wooden pole with brackets turned away from the street. The pole may have been used to carry trolley wire at some point. You can also see old trolley poles along Rockaway Parkway.
Probably in the 50s and even 60s the old route was even more visible; some more ROWs and rails may have been there. Anyone from Canarsie remember?
I didn't live in Canarsie but Mom had a neighbor friend who moved there in 1962 and we visited her home on E.100th Street & Ave. "L".
I remember a huge hump in Flatlands Avenue where the ROW crossed. As of August 8, 1964 the curved portion on the west side of Rockaway Parkway was still there. By 1973 it had vanished.
Wayne
1973 turns out to be a pivotal year in Canarsie. They took away the grade crossing and wiped out the last remnants of the trolley.
I started biking into Canarsie from Bay Ridge in 1974 so I just missed all the action.
BTW, the area around the Rockaway Pkway station has deteriorated considerably since the mid-70s, "imho".
Yes, Rockaway Parkway by the L train terminal has about no less than 5 trolley poles still in evidence.
And those buildings directly across from the terminal do look 'younger' than the surrounding buildings indicating the original ROW of the Brooklyn, Canarsie & Rockaway Beach RR.
Doug aka BMTman
We've been talking NIMBYs here lately. They've stymied the reopening of the LIRR Rockaway Branch, and helped to foist the dopey Van Wyck monorail JFK access line on NYC airline commuters, who will contiune to take cabs.
Will the NIMBYs be successful in stymying any rail access to LaGuardia from Astoria, or can there eventually be a plan that will satisfy even the most die hard neighborhood guy who deson't want even the hint of a train rumbling close to his house?
Will the NIMBYs be successful in stymying any rail access to LaGuardia from Astoria, or can there eventually be a plan that will satisfy even the most die hard neighborhood guy who deson't want even the hint of a train rumbling close to his house?]
I haven't been in the area recently, so this is based mainly on second-hand information, but I believe that an N-line extension to the airport could be built almost entirely over and adjacent to commercial/industrial property. Only a small number of residences would be at all affected, and presumably they could be paid off.
The Sunnyside Yards plan? I think they objected to that because it would have to run along the BQE and would therefore create niose in the neighborhoods beside it.
[re low-neighborhood impact plan]
The proposal that would have the least effect on surrounding residential areas would involve extending the N north from its current Ditmas Blvd. terminal. To the best of my knowledge - again, this is mostly second-hand information - the extended line would pass by only a few residential blocks in Astoria. Residents of the affected area presumably would drop any objections if enough $$$ is tossed their way. Most of the extension to the airport could be routed through industrial areas.
That plan would entail the construction of an extension of the elevated structure along 31st Street to 19th Avenue. Can't see the local NIMBYs accepting that one, and in that case, I think they'd have a valid point. 31st Street is residential north of Ditmars Blvd, and I sure wouldn't want an el train in front of my apartment.
Unless they put it underground.
>>>Unless they put it underground. <<<
How? You'd need at least a block-long ramp once your el structure cleared Ditmars Boulevard, and knowing how construction is here, you'd be jackhammering for a year or more. Then the contractor would go bankrupt, you'd wait around for a year with a huge trench in 31st Street until they find another one. Or, they'd have to order a part from Europe that would take months to deliver.
(A lot of this stuff happened with the Main St. reno's, which started in 1994 with no end in sight -- crippling business and bankrupting one or two).
I think the best way to LGA is thru the Sunnyside Yards...
Although this is just conjecture to keep the thread going, (I really couldn't care less if LGA or JFK gets rail service, the 2nd Av subway& the Nassau Hub areas are more important) what about the rail line that leads to the Hell Gate Bridge in Astoria. Thats pretty close to LaGuardia I think, and it leads to Penn Sta.
The N is too crowded already to have it extended to the airport. Not unless they connect the 63rd Street line (elevated structure built from tunnel to 39th Avenue). Other than that, I support the idea.
N Broadway Line
Astoria Division
The last few blocks are heavy residential and I understand the chairman of the local community board lives there. This is the main stumbling point.
New York needs rail survice to LaGuardia airport. With the cost of construction it is cheaper to buy out all the property owners that want to sell and resell the houses or apartments to people who don't mind the el..
The van wyck plan was approved
[The van wyck plan was approved]
Well, the loop around the airport was TOTALLY approved and phisical work there is going forward. The run to Jamaica has gotten some of the approval it needs, but I believe there's still a few loose ends.
BUT the result will be that run or no run.
Mr t__:^)
Politics, passenger tax squabbles, NIMBYism, and Port Authority/MTA rivalries aside:
If, as some point in the future, ThePowersThatBe decide to convert the AirTrain to a LIRR branch line, and run trains from Penn to JFK via Jamaica, would it be technically possible? What PHYSICAL changes would be required?
At Brooklyn Bridge there was a 4 going downtown on the uptown tracks and there was a uptown 6 at bowling green (all in service)
Was the uptown 6 on the southbound platform?
no, it was on the northbound track and if you read my previous post, you would see that there was a southbound 4 on the same track. I wonder what happened at Fulton St.
Let's hope there was no KA-BOOOOOM!!!
I ment track
I think theres a Switch South of Brooklyn Bridge from 3TK to 2TK.
On the Lexington Ave Line there was No service from 59 Street to 149 St on the No.4,5 and Hunts Point Ave on the No.6 Line for most of the day. It should be running close to normal now.
There used to be a track which tied into the southbound track just before Fulton St., but it's gone now. Lexington Ave. locals continuing past Brooklyn Bridge are switched over north of BB. Chances are that 6 train took the inner South Ferry loop.
I have studied the photo taken at Shore Line of 6688's door controls and noticed there are what appear to be two drum switches and only a single pair of buttons.
One of the drum switches is undoubtedly used for zoning purposes. With only two buttons, does the other switch serve as an open/close selector? The buttons themselves must operate the doors by section, correct?
I bring this up because I remember seeing two pairs of buttons in the R-42 cabs, distinctly marked "open" and "close", while watching the conductor do his stuff on the LL in 1969-70.
[ I have studied the photo taken at Shore Line of 6688's door controls
and noticed there are what appear to be two drum switches and only a
single pair of buttons. ]
I'm sure that someone will elaborate here, with such details as which button does what, and when the control style was changed to the present-day buttons.
The levers you see there are the door controls themselves. The lever to the left operates all doors to the left, and the lever to the right all doors to the right. The levers each have three positions: Open, Close, and Lock. Open and close open and close the doors, and Lock engages the locks. The buttons are for the trainline buzzer, which I think can be operated in separate zones.
In the picture, at http://www.nycsubway.org/slides/r17/r17-6688f.jpg, you see the levers in two positions. The straight up-and-down position of the left lever is the locked position, the middle position would be closed, and the 45 degree position of the right lever is open. I would suppose that this picture was taken at the High-level platform, which is just outside the window to the north, and this is the westward cab.
The "drum switch" is shown in the picture, just below the window, and is used to zone the car in and out -- i.e. on, off, and thru.
Below the door controls is the mounting bracket for the luggable radio that used to be used on these cars, and above it is the PA panel, with just one button of obvious utility.
Below the door controls is the mounting bracket for the luggable radio that used to be used on these
cars, and above it is the PA panel, with just one button of obvious utility.
Actually, two buttons on the PA panel, the push-to-talk and
the circuit breaker. Try hitting the talk button while holding
the trainline heat/fan momentary in the OFF position and watch
the breaker pop out.
Did anyone hear about a stabbing on an Amtrak train today?
According to CBS radio, a deranged passenger on a New York Bound Amtrak train out of Chicago apparently went berserk stabbing people - including the conductor.
So far, no fatalities.
Passengers and crew subdued this person and police picked him up from the train. I seem to recall the report saying the incident happened in Ohio - possibly near Cleveland.
link to CNN story.
I am suprised we haven't been told that people kill not knives.
Oh, you're the one.
Well I'm another one!!! As a NYC cop I'll only let someone f__k me once. There's more of a chance of seeing a "D" Triplex on the Port Jefferson line than seeing me vote for Rudy. The main drawback to his opponent is her choice of men!!!
True. Your vote is a more anti-rudy than pro-Hillary. Here in Chicago I feel the same way about Mayor Daley. I would rather vote for the devil that vote for Daley.
Rudy the terrible, Rudy and bastard. At least you know what Rudy is all about. And would you like to go back to the days in the city before Rudy?
Hillary is a great unknown - she has never held public office, well unless you want to count co-president.
Let's face it, NYC will vote big for Hillary, it will be up the upstates to rescuse New York. You can't afford another clueless Chuck Shummer representing NY.
As I've said before on these pages, I is my feeling that electing Hillary as Senator does a huge injustice to the great man she would be replacing.
Jim K.
Chicago
Why Don't the Republicans give us a choice, they should be grooming Jack Kemp and not so much on Hilary's negatives (Actually, other than health care, we don't know a whole lot about Hilary's politics). An excited, energized New York Republican party with Senator Kemp could work together with the National organization and Colin Powell to smash the Democrats like a hammer. As a LIBERAL, I hope this don't happen, but it's very possible.
[Why Don't the Republicans give us a choice, they should be grooming Jack Kemp and not so much on Hilary's negatives (Actually, other than health care, we don't know a whole lot about Hilary's politics). An excited, energized New York Republican party with Senator Kemp could work together with the National organization and Colin Powell to smash the Democrats like a hammer. As a LIBERAL, I hope this don't happen, but it's very possible.]
John, do not fear, the Republican's have not been able to pull off a coup as you described above in many, many years. The last great GOP coup I remember is when they stole the ex-Rostenkowski seat here in Chicago. It only lasted two years. Even if the Republicans do come up with a good candidate, as you suggest, they will shoot themselves in the foot by dwelling on Hillary's negative vs. the real issues, as you also suggest. I sad part is that I think a very strong Republican candidate running on issues could handily defeat the Hillary machine. I'd say the the majority of people of New York don't want six more years of the Clinton Whitehouse.
I just read in the Sunday Chicago Tribune that Bill and Hill took off some time from fund-raising to look at a house in Chapaqua. I'd like to know who is putting down the downpayment.
Jim K.
Chicago
Return to the Dark Days of David Dinkins? I don't think so! Crime and riots rampant while Tennis flourishes Lest we not forget that amid the Riots in Crown Heights and the protests on Flatbush Ave, where Dinkins was noticably absent, David Dinkins renegotiated a new lease for the US Tennis Association that mandated the diversion of commercial jet traffic to a less safe approach to LaGuardia Airport during the US Open. The man's priorities were screwed up. And who do we have to thank for him? The Democrats, the same cynical SOBs that are now trying to force-feed NY'ers another unqualified clueless loser with a high-profile name.
This weekend, the Clintons are staying on Long Island while house-hunting in Westchester. Coincidentally, Monica Lewinsky is moving into her new digs in Greenwich Village. Coincidence? Or does Monica plan to help the president fill those idle hours while Hilly is lining her pockets with NY greenbacks before moving on to greener pastures.
Just to keep it topical - what do you think will happen to mass transit funding with Clueless Chuck and Ethicly Devoid Hilly in NY's corner. Things could look pretty bleak.
[Just to keep it topical - what do you think will happen to mass transit funding with Clueless Chuck and Ethicly Devoid Hilly in NY's corner. Things could look pretty bleak.]
My point exactly! Clueless Chuck can only find his way back to Brooklyn when not in Washington. Hillary will spend as much time as she can in Washington and will still be a non-resident of New York. Bill will have the run of the house wherever they decide to squat. Neither will NEVER step foot near public transportation.
If New Yorkers allow this to happen, after many years of benefiting from the Honorable Daniel Patrick Monynihan and the not so Honorable Senator Pothole, you'll be lucky if you 25% of the money back that you send to Washington. Talk about taxation without representation!
Jim K.
Chicago
I'm not crazy about Hillary's husband's choice of women either.
But it's nice to know both the first couple and Monica have apparently settled on their new digs. The only problem for Bill that I see is there's really no one stop subway connection to 666 Greenwich St. from Grand Central after he takes Metro North down into the city while the missus is off legislating in Washington.
Shuttle from Grand Central to Times Square, change for the 1 to Sheridan Square I guess, unless Bill want to take a brisk walk down to the 33rd and Sixth for the PATH.
666 Greenwich St.? Really?
There was a satyrical cartoon back in '92 that said that Bill had sold his soul to Baal (a popular ancient diety) in exchange for political power. Now 666? Hmmm...
But seriously. I'll be really surprised if he ever sees Monica again. It would imply that he was really in love with the tart. This does not strike me as Bill Clinton's personality. Does the term "yesterday's papers" mean anything to you?
BTW, am I the only the only who notices that the People's President and his wife, the People's Princess, are looking for their new digs in the Hated Suburbs. Not merely the Hated Suburbs, but the richest of the Hated Suburbs.
Yeah, I know, they really wanted a townhouse in Bed-Stuy. I know a lady who owns a beautiful one. But the Secret Service wouldn't let them.
Just like their visits to Long Island seems to be East Hampton, not East Islip. I see what kind of New Yorkers they'll be.
On Channel 9 news last night, one reporter said that rents in Ms. Lewinsky's new residence average $5,000 per month. Anyone have any idea what she does to earn enough money to pay that rent? Last I heard she was an intern (and not the MD kind).
[On Channel 9 news last night, one reporter said that rents in Ms. Lewinsky's new residence average $5,000 per month. Anyone have any idea what she does to earn enough money to pay that rent? Last I heard she was an intern (and not the MD kind).]
I'm sure being the President's "love puppy" has it rewards. I wonder if she will every use the subway?
Jim K.
Chicago
Perhaps she will get caught in a compromising position on the IND, ala 'Subway Stories'???
:-)
Doug aka BMTman
She already was, but on (by) the S.P. (Can you say subpoena??)
I'm sure when you say "the President's Love Puppy" you are not implying that she is a dog !!!! Arf Arf
Rim shot!
If she were to use the subway, I wonder if she'd try to smoke a cigar.
On Channel 9 news last night, one reporter said that rents in Ms. Lewinsky's new residence average $5,000 per month. Anyone have any idea what she does to earn enough money to pay that rent? Last I heard she was an intern (and not the MD kind).
I'd guess that $5000 is coming from the same group of people who funded her ramage through the legal system. Being a political stooge has its benefits, regardless of which side you support.
CH
Well to keep it topical, Monica can be compared to an R-68.
1) A little too heavy.
2) A little slow.
3) Really not to pretty
4) But plenty of room to carry the load.
Well to keep it topical, Monica can be compared to an R-68.
Personally, I'd be inclined to compare her to vac-track.
Slow, not fit for public viewing, and a sucker for every lie ever invented.
I'm sure everyone else can think of another reason, but I'm not about to expose that area in public.
An R-68 will huff and puff. With Monica, it's puff and stuff.
Not to mention her husband's choice of women!
To paraphraze an old MAD MAGAZINE Parody.....
If we outlaw knives......then only outlaws will have knives
I though it was: "If we outlaw knives, only outlaws will be able to eat steak."
How about something more feasible: Outlaw Inlaws?
Two methods: 1. Divorce 2. Remain unmarried.
Neither is cheap, especially if you're a railfan.
You can also marry somebody whose entire family is DEAD.
Sorry if I'm too morbid for your tastes.
With all the flooding today, all the subways were knocked out in Manhattan, Metro North suspended service but yet the LIRR got me in on time.
Remain calm, you are only experiencing an "alternate reality" phase that will correct itself in 24 hours ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
I'm going to put a Do You Remember section in my "legend in my own mind" transit buff website. Anyone remember what the letter designation was on the Sea Beach Super Express was? I know it was double letters. Was it XX or SS?
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
SOUND
It Was NX!
The Seabeach Super Express was the NX and was super fast.
It actually originated out of Brighton Beach and went up the express tracks on the Seabeach after Coney Island.
Unfortunately, the TA complained abotu low ridership shortly after it was introduced and typical for the TA - was not seriously marketed.
The NX had a short life time. But it was a great train.
Of course, stopping nowhere between Coney Island and 59 St. It was almost completely useless, took capacity from the N and probably led to some difficulties passing Stillwell, and terminating at Brighton Beach with D trains trains from the Brighton terminating from the other side. If there were some more express stops, like Kings Highway and New Utrecht Avenue, it would be a useful line.
Thats why it was discontinued.
It was the NX, which lasted all but 1 year before lack of ridership torpedoed it, along with the short-lived RJ.
Thanks to everybody about the "NX"
The flooding is so bad I can't even reach the MTA Website!!!
I just added the following to my "Transit Buff" page. I only put things that "I personally" remember. I was born in '53 and most of the following are from the 60's. Remembering that I'm not a writer, what do you all think?
Do You Remember??Having to put a token in the turnstile to LEAVE a station on the Rockaway Line?The "NX" Super Express on the middle tracks of the Sea Beach through Stillwell to Brighten Beach?The Woodhaven Station betw E.NY & Jamaica on the LIRR?Double Deckers?Freight trains to the C.I. yard on the roadway right on McDonald Av under the El?The state names on the Blue #7 train cars?Kelso winning the Jockey Club Gold Cup (Sorry about that!!) The Av B & E. Broadway Bus Company? How 'bout The Jerusalem Av Bus Company?The elevator at 149 Street between the underground IRT & the Third Av ElThe Engineer having to get off just before Hempstead Station to manually throw the switch?The street level waiting room at the Flatbush/Atlantic LIRR Station?The Culver Shuttle?The pumplike brake handle clanking away on the R1-9's?Mack Buses?wooden platforms?/td>
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
OK I remember these two even though I was born 29 years after you.
Double Deckers: I saw a set parked south of the only train I ever took out of Penn Station as it approached Jamaica (It was also the last train I will ever take out of Penn Station east of Eighth Avenue). OK, I cheated.
They had wooden platforms at Dean Street on the Franklin Shuttle until it closed in 1995. The south end of the platform at Avenue U on the Brighton Line is still wood. Park Place on the shuttle was also all or part wood just before closing in 1998.
I forgot to mention the temporary wooden platform over the middle track at Marcy Avenue.
I can remember ALL of that list except for the Woodhaven LIRR station, somehow I never did see it.
Ah yes, that elevator at the 149th Street IRT station, geez, I can vividly remember the smell....... :-(
Actually you can still see it if you stand at the front or rear railfan window while in the tunnel between ENY & Jamaica. It IS very dark though. BTW, Thanks for confirming the elevator. It was the only thing I wasn't sure about. I only vaguely remember it.
Are you certain there was an elevator at 149th and 3rd Ave? I know there is a closed elevator at 149th St./Grand Concourse station, but wasn't the connection to the 3rd Ave. El an escalator rather than an elevator?
I know that the closed elevator did not go to the 3rd Avenue el. I don't know if there might have been another one that did.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Chicago is full of wooden platforms. I guess they don't replace them with concrete because of weight?
Jeff, as a native East Meadowite, you should remember LIRR crossings butting right up against Sunrise Highway through Merrick, Bellmore, Seaford and Massapequea Park and the monumental traffic jams accompanying passing trains.
I'm too young, but you might also remember when Hicksville was also at grade level- I think it was raised in 1962? 1965? And this was AFTER the adjacent mall was built!
Not a transit memory, but I sure miss those old wooden Parkway poles.
Yep, I'm showing my age but I remember well all the grade crossings on the south shore. We had a cousin south of Sunrise and my biggest recollections of visiting them as a young kid was passing the gates on Merrick Av and hoping they would go down. I also remember trains used to be laid up between Merrick & Freeport, mostly Double Deckers.
I vaguely remember the grade crossings in Hicksville.
BTW, there still are the original Pkway lights on Ocean Pkway between Jones Beach & Captree.
If I remember correctly, the Merrick Station b-4 grade elimination & the ugly el was actually WEST of Merrick Av where the parking lots are now.
Jeff - all great memories - here are a few more from a similar time
on Long Island -
RS3s and C-Liners handling the evening rush hour at Huntington hauling six axle heavy weghts
Huntington Coach Corp "Baby Old Look" buses meeting those trains
The potatoe field that became the Walt Whitman Mall in Huntington
The '63-'64 New York Worlds Fair - the exhibits, the momorail, the special station on the #7 line and all the special buses routed there
The Long Island Sound full of Flounder (I know it's not transit but I miss the Flounder!)
Abandoned LIRR branch to Pilgrm State - saw a train on it once with passengers
C420s shut down at Port Jefferson on a hot Summer weekend
LIRR "Road 'n Rail" service to Greenport and Montauk in GMC "Fishbowls"
Freedomland - in the Bronx near where Co-op City is now
The following bus companies - Hempstead, Bee Line, Mid Island, Inter County, Schenck, Utility, Jerusalem Ave
And - in Westechester and Putnam - (a little later on) -
P and S units hauling New York Central coaches in third rail territory
The Third Ave El in the Bronx - last caine seats on the IRT
The last freight on the Putnam Division between Mahopac and Brewster
with a single filthy New York Central RS3 up front
RDCs on the Hudson Division between Poughkeepsie and Croton Harmon
Walter's Transit Bus company between Brewster and Times Square
The "Hawthorne Circle" junction between the Taconic, Saw Mill and Bronx River Parkways connecting to each other and Route 9A and 100
The New York Central ACMU 1100 series when brand new
How about the 69th St. Ferry (the one from 69th St. Brooklyn to St. George Staten Island, pre-Verrazano brige). Some fond memories as a kid of getting out of the car during the trip and wandering upstairs to the passenger area.
-- Ed Sachs
I remember the brake handle on the R-1/9s, along with all of their associated sounds: moans, groans, grunts, snarls, hisses, throbbing compressors, AMUE lap-release sounds, door sounds, and the unmistakeable whine of their bull and pinion gears.
The NX is an honorable mention; although I never had a chance to ride on it, I do remember seeing it on maps. In fact, I still have a 1967 TA map - the first one with a color for each individual route.
I remember seeing wooden platforms at Marcy Ave.
I can add a few: taking a JJ and, later, QJ to the end of the Jamaica line at 168th St.
Crossing the Williamsburg Bridge on a #15.
Rocketing along CPW on an A train of R-10s.
D trains to Coney Island via the Culver line.
Shiny new R-32s in 1965.
Using the lower level at 42nd St. as an underpass between the platforms.
Funny you should mention all the sounds of the R1-9's. I sure miss the sounds of the R1-9's, Low-V, BMT Standards, & the LIRR's MU's, especially when the motors would go on for a couple of minutes and go off. Well today I went to Branford for the first time. Although none of the subway cars were running all the trolleys that were running made alot of the same sounds and it was great to hear them!!!
By the way, I really enjoyed the trip. The motorman on the return trolley trip, George, turned out to be a regular reader of this forum and we had a great conversation. Thanks for a great day!!
On the way home the traffic on I-95 was terrible (should've) taken the Merrit/Hutch combo so I decided to take the Port Jeff Ferry at Bridgeport. When I asked how long a wait without reservations I was told (with a straight face) 24 hours!!!! So we ended up at Rye Playland!!!
[re 24-hour wait for the Pt. Jefferson ferry]
It would've been really funny if you had replied "Okay, I'll wait."
I was shocked. The only time I ever took that one or the Orient Pt one was by motorcycle and they always let the bike on, no reservation. On the other hand I took my son on the S.I. Ferry last week, we went down to the car level and there were only 4 cars!!!
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That, in my experience, is quite unusual - I've never been on it when it was less than 40% full, and usually it's closer to 80% loaded.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Considering that bikes pay $20 + passenger while cars ar $30 +, I've always gotten on the very next boat. They can put 4 bikes in the space of 1 car and other bikes where cars just won't fit. Last time we were on the New London ferry was Indian Museum Day in Springfield, Mass. The din from all those old indians starting up as we neared the dock was deafening.
Actually I meant the Pt Jeff-Bridgeport ferry. The New London-Orient Pt one probably has a shorter wat.
Actually I meant the Pt Jeff-Bridgeport ferry. The New London-Orient Pt one probably has a shorter wait.
Either ferry has the same Pro-Bike policy. By the way, here's a pix of my BIKE
I remember the LIRR Double-Deckers (what MP designation did they carry? - MP-70?) thundering through Floral Park (before it was elevated) on their way to Hicksville or Huntington. I was a little kid (maybe four) and couldn't properly say "double decker" so I called them "dicketydackers", a combination of "double-decker" and "clickety-clack". I used to make up words all the time if I didn't know what something was, I made up a word for it.
I was on a Flatbush-to-Floral Park train back in January 1969 that actually stopped at Woodhaven. It had purplish tablets on the walls and was lit with bulbs inside round shades, the same kind they used on the white platform picket posts. Does anyone remember those platform lights, and are there any left?
I remember coal trains to Creedmoor Hospital, using the spur that crossed over Hillside Avenue, just east of 235th Court, which was then known as Pistol Street. They also had Range Street (with a grass divider) and Musket Street, both of which are still called that.
As late as 1970, there were tracks in the huge vacant lot that's now the ball field there.
I remember the West Hempstead-to-Country Life Press spur, back around 1959. I remember seeing an ancient train crossing Hempstead Turnpike there (I think they were MP-41s).
I remember Canal Street closed station used be called "Broadway".
Last rides for me on:
Culver Shuttle: April 11,1969
Myrtle El: October 3, 1969
3rd Ave El: April 16, 1971
If I come up with any more buried memories, I'll post 'em.
Wayne
Great memories. Although I never saw a train cross Hempstead Tnpk by S.Klein in W.Hemp. I do remember the crossing.
MY last ride on the Myrtle was on its last day of operation. I still have the cane seat I stole borrowed as a souvenir from one of the last ridden Q car. (I don't think I've ridden on the part of the Myrtle still open North of Bway since then, although I frequently drive under it while working)
Any Double Decker that you had seen going past Floral Park must have been going either to Hempstead or East Williston since the DD's were electric and the only electrification past Mineola was to East Williston!!! The Double Deckers were long gone before the main line was electrified to Hicksville.
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8/28/99
Jeff,
I think you stand corrected on the statement that the double deckers were long gone when electrication reached Hicksville and Huntington.
I have a slide of an ERA double decker fantrip at Huntington station.
The four car consist was photographed there in the rain,an unwritten tradition of Long Island Rail Road fantrips. Year of fantrip was unknown,possibly '69 or '70.
Bill Newkirk
Wasn't there also a picture of the double deckers on the Port Jefferson line in one of the LIRR calendars put out by LIST/NRHS?
I seem to remember such a photo on the double-track section down towards Hicksville, all the cars on the train were in the MTA silver & blue scheme though many other cars were still garbage can grey.
Was it being pulled by a loco?? Although I might be wrong I think electrification to Huntington was well past '69-'70.
Yes, I think there was an engine pulling the Double Decker train. The train was dark grey and had little "Dashing Dan" signs on the sides.
It went through Floral Park like the wind. This is before Floral Park was elevated, so we're talking pre-1961 here. I remember the wooden station buildings at Floral Park and the quaint platform lamps. We used to pick my Dad up there from work (we lived in Elmont). While they elevated Floral Park, they installed a temporary track right in the middle of Atlantic Avenue so service could continue. It was one track with a temporary platform and it went back to two tracks after the branch off towards Hempstead.
Wayne
As late as last year, there was a whistle (I believe) marker on the east end of one of the westbound tracks at Woodside station. On the reverse side of the sign was the remnannts of the Dashing Dan Logo. I would really like to see the LIRR bring back that logo (albiet perhaps with a ball and chain around the ankle)
Getting back to an earlier posting of yours: I too remeber seeing trains on the spur to Creedmore, growing up in Glen Oaks. However, I also remember the just before the spur turned north into Creedmore, there was a switch and the other leg continued west towards Braddock Avenue. I seem to remeber that leg served a Pipe factory and a coal company. Do you have asimilar recollection?
BTW: Despite living in the area from 1960 until 1975, I never did see the LIRR at grade through Floral Park.
I don't remember that spur going west - by 1968, it was gone. It must have closed sometime between 1960 and 1968. We went to Creedmoor quite a few times to visit my Grandfather, who was suffering from Alzheimer's. Back then, that's all they could do with Alzheimer's patients. He died in 1962. 235th Court was still Pistol Street then, by 1968, it was "renumbered".
Wayne
Does anybody know when the electrification to Hicksville, Huntington and later Ronkonkoma was done? When and where was the original LIRR electrification? What about Babylon and the Long Beach, Hempstead, W Hemp, Far Rock and Babylon electrification done? What about grade separation?
I remember as early as the mid-50s the Massapequa Station on the Babylon branch was above grade but Massapequa Park was at grade. I also remember driving across the temporary tracks at Bellmore in 1974-75 as the grade elimination project was done for Merrick, Bellmore and Wantagh.
[Does anybody know when the electrification to Hicksville, Huntington and later Ronkonkoma was done?]
The third rail was extended from Mineola to Hicksville and Huntington in 1970, I believe. In those days the line to Huntington went from two main tracks to one track at "Amott" interlocking east of Syosett. I don't recall when the second track to Huntington was put in, but I'd say the late 1980's.
The third rail made in to Ronkonkoma in 1988, if I remember correctly.
Someone from LI could probably verify or correct those dates.
Jim K.
Chicago
IIRC, the Double Deckers I saw had an engine pulling them. I DO remember the Owl Cars and Ping Pong cars on the Hempstead Branch, and I also remember the 2600-series ZIPs there too, in their last days, painted grey and blue like the current MP-75s. Saw them on the West Hempstead branch too. BTW speaking of West Hempstead branch - I saw a train of R40Ms parked on the siding at West Hempstead Station back in April of 1969. It had Brake Test unit numbers. I was wondering what the heck it was doing there and how it got there.
Wayne
8/28/99
The LIRR MP-41's were scrapped in the early 1950's so they never saw 1959. Perhaps a fuzzy memory of an MP-54 !!
Bill Newkirk
OK, thanks for that information. All I remember was the train was maybe four cars long and it looked ancient. It may have been one of the earliest MP-54s. There were many different kinds of MP-54s, IIRC.
Wayne
You mentioned in an earlier post that you saw a train cross Hempstead Tnpk in West Hemp in '59. I actually remember a freight train crossing Stewart Av by the freight yard (where the circus train parks) in the 70's. A conductor (or some other employee) got off the train and stopped traffic.
I also remember a rail spur which ran between Mineola and the cross junction north of Country Life Press. It ran south from Mineola, ran parallel to Franklin Avenue then went east towards the old Clinton Avenue station, which is now a Garden City fire house. I don't recall any passenger trains running on it. It did, however have a third rail.
An old map of mine shows the Garden City junction as a grade crossing with connecting spurs in all four directions. In other words, trains could have gone from Mineola to Country Life Press if this were the way the tracks were. This must have been before my time - I only remember three connectors at most - Mineola-Clinton; Garden City-Country Life Press (still in use); and Country Life Press-Clinton (I think the Clinton shuttle train used this). I don't remember a Garden City-Mineola connector. This same map also shows an eastbound connection between the Far Rockaway branch and the Babylon Branch at the Valley junction. The curvature of the current elevated structure tends to support the former existence of this.
Wayne
Just East of Mineola Sta before the tower you can see old rotted wooden fencing curving southward. Also a block south in a straight line from that fence there are LIRR grade crossing equipment stored there suggesting a Right Of Way there. Also trains went from Country Life Press to the W.Hempstead Station.
>>>I remember coal trains to Creedmoor Hospital, using the spur that crossed over Hillside Avenue, just east
of 235th Court, which was then known as Pistol Street. They also had Range Street (with a grass divider)
and Musket Street, both of which are still called that.
As late as 1970, there were tracks in the huge vacant lot that's now the ball field there. <<<
The legacy of that abandoned LIRR branch is that there aren't a whole lot of ways to get from, say, 88th Avenue north to Hillside Avenue, unless you take Winchester Blvd or 235th Ct (Pistol St).
Why was Pistol Street renamed, since none of the other 'rifle range' streets were? Was the Pistol St crossing a grade crossing?
www.forgotten-ny.com
And there still aren't! The only through streets are Winchester Boulevard, 235th Court (which runs into Moline Street), Cross Island Parkway, Commonwealth Boulevard, 249th Street, Little Neck Parkway.
It looks like they were going to connect 239th Street to 88th Avenue, but it still hasn't been done.
I don't know why they renamed Pistol Street to 235th Court. Perhaps someone didn't care for guns. :o) As for the grade crossing - yes, there was a single-track grade crossing over Hillside Avenue one block east of Pistol Street, leading into Creedmoor Hospital and ending at the heating plant. By the time I was frequenting the area, the tracks which led west from the turnoff were long gone. The big vacant lot was really a wooded area. Lots of neat bike trails and dirt paths, with entrances next to the school and on the east side at 239th Street. Behind the houses, there were some ties lying against the fences but the rails going west were gone. I think the cut-through from 235th Court to Moline Street came into being once the tracks to Flushing were removed and new houses went up.
Wayne
I think Bob Andersen's site
http://www.lirrhistory.com/
has a couple of artifacts of the old line, some rails found in a parking lot.
Yes, I have seen that site. I was living on Little Neck Parkway (87-62) between 1981 and 1984 when they were taking down the trestle and creating the parking lot. Vestiges of the line, which crossed Little Neck Parkway right at the crest of the hill (which was flattened in 1983), could be seen in people's back yards, and alongside the church property by Cross Island Parkway. There's even underpass going under Cross Island Parkway which is still there, albeit blocked up.
Wayne
Also:
Chambers Street Specials, aka RJ trains, on the 4th Avenue Line.
Wicker seats, later to be replaced by soft red seats. Juvenile delinquents liked to knife up the seats, so they went to plastic. The JD's moved on to graffiti and scratchiti. Shooting each other and us, too.
I preferred the Mack buses over the GMs. I lived in Bay Ridge, and all neighborhood routes were GMs except for the B64 to Coney Island, which were Macks. Staten Island got a lot of the Macks. I think the switch to the fishbowl buses was complete by 64 or 65.
I remember when every car in the system was marred by graffiti, and when very little attention was paid to proper signage. This was the late 70s into the early 1980s.
I remember a different color code than the one they're using now. For example the M was light blue instead of brown.
As far as the old buses are concerned when I was a teen if I didn't have the money for the LIRR I would take 2 buses to Jamaica, The Hempstead Bus Company which had Macks from E. Meadow to Hempstead, and the Bee Line, which had GMC's from Hempstead to Jamaica. On either line, if I had the time, I would pass up a fishbowl to ride one of the old ones. The Macks made a bunch of different sounds, just like the pre-war subways. Also, after the city and MSBA got rid of all the old buses and fishbowls were left, only Queens Transit (GMC) and the AV B. & E. Broadway Bus Lines(Mack) had old buses.
Hey I remember the old GMC Bee Line buses - #600 thru #619. IIRC #619 was the only old GMC bus to be painted in the MSBA blue/orange livery.
Now and then I'd get one of the oldies on the N-2 Meacham Avenue-to-Jamaica rush hour run. Most of the Bee Line buses (#565-576; #620-696) were GMC Fishbowls. #697 and #698 had express bus type seats. #669 was a Flxible. They also had some #400 series old GMC's too - #415, #416 etc. I should be posting this on BusTalk.
Wayne
Hey, this site has some pictures of Bee Line Buses under "Around New York." Click on buses then Queens.
I remember when i was about 6 or 7 years old, i took the Av B & E.Broadway Bus Lines to my grandmother's house. It this bus start from 15th Street & Park Ave to 14th street to Ave B down to Houston St to FDR Drive to Delancey st & last stop at Columbia st. Am im correct or not? Around i think 1981 or 1982 NYCTA took over the line & Ave B & E.Broadway Bus Lines went out of business. The Depot that use to be at Allen st & FDR Drive that where Pathmark is.
Meaney
Although I don't know for sure but I think it was discontinued before that. I remember those buses in the early 70's when I was driving a cab. They must have been the last Macks still in service. When I went back to hacking part time in 1979 the company was gone, with the city covering the routes.
Ave B went out of business in the late 70s. Along with the lower east side route, which also ran to Chatham Square, they also ran express buses to the harness racetracks in the evenings -- Macks with no rear doors, which I guess were the express buses of their time.
I last saw the old GM or Macks in Staten Island in 1972.
The best noise in the old buses was the rhythmic noise the coin box made. Somebody should have written a song to that, since it was possible.
Kevin Walsh,
You're talking about the Johnson farebox sound. I agree,how about the sound when the coins hit the bell before going down the zig zag
chute? Something todays Metrocard minded fareboxs don't do. Unless you like boops or beeps!!
Bill Newkirk
Yes, the TA's first attempt at color coding subway routes resulted in a map which resembled multicolored spaghetti. Some colors were used more than once. The current color code was adopted in 1979 and did simplify things to a degree.
8/29/99
Hey Jeff! Boy do I remember! I just turned 48 and here's a piece of my memory by division:
IRT DIVISION - My family and I used to live on Eastern Parkway between Howard and Pitkin Ave's,so the closest line was the New Lots Line. My first childhood subway memory was riding Low-V's,something about those dark end vestibules where people entered and exited caught my attention.The Bronx portion of the 3rd Avenue "el". I remember riding the Low-V/Worlds fair consists once in the mid 60's. I was puzzled and fascinated by the missing express track,not knowing the history of that line.The Flushing line,borrowed (original) redbirds with "stick on" route signs on front. Also the debut of the R-33/36 cars.
IND DIVISION - When visiting my grandmother in Queens, we would take the Brighton Local to 34th St and transfer to the (F) train. Back then,the (F) train would terminate at 34th St on weekends. Insisting to ride the front car,my father complying,watching the R1-9's switching over to the now northbound platform. No sealed beams,too. How about those illuminated signal numbers on the bottom of the signal cases that the BMT didn't have. That fascinated me also.
BMT DIVISION - We save the best for last. I lived at the Newkirk Avenue station of the BMT Brighton Line (hence Newkirk Images) from
'57 to '72. How about these,Watching train movements from different overpasses from streets named,Dorchester,Ditmas,Newkirk,Foster and the unique Glenwood Road bridge. Watching for hours! D Types,AB types,
I remember for sshort time 4000 series trailers on the Brighton local,
Couldn't figure out then why there was no shoe beam!. Watching roof lines of mixed AB types consists. Deck roofs,empire roofs and the brief 2500 series box louvers. Brighton expresses and locals racing to Newkirk Avenue. Then both conductors kept the doors open so people could change cross platform. Then there is elevated style third rail and the year they changed over to subway third rail with protection board. Heavy snowstorms and B types in the open cut. The snow deadened the rail joint click clack sounds. If the snow was deep enough third rail shoes sparking while train was moving.Then there are warm summer nights,very late. I lived 5 blocks from the Newkirk Avenue station and on a very quiet night hearing the bull and pinion sound of the AB's climbing the hill to Avenue H. How about brand new R-27's on the local with their shiny olive paint and silvery window sashs. Of course we all remember those green flourescent light that made the sign designation iredescent! I remember rebuilt AB's (1959)
with that unusual plextone paint and red cushion seats. I even remember an occasional AB ON THE Brighton Express! I remember the first time I saw the R-32's testing on Sea Beach middle. I watched for hours the two car train going back and forth between 8th ave and Fort Hamilton Parkway. I never seen something so bright and shiny. Meanwhile AB's plied the Sea Beach since D types were sent to the West End. And oh yes! I remember the Culver shuttle with two A-Types.
Every time I hear the Beatles "Do you want to know a secret?" I still remember the Canarsie line. One warm in the summer of '64 I was riding the AB'S with windows open,fans spinning and a teenager with a hand held transistor radio playing the song while the motorman was blowing the whistle for the East 105th St grade crossing. And last but not least I remember Stillwell terminal chocked full of AB's,D's and R1-9's. I remember when returning a child from swimming at Washington Baths Annex seeing the B-types laid up at the end of the station so they could couple up for the rush hour. With fond memories like that and others not memtioned,it's hard to fond of the way things are today.
Bill Newkirk
The Beatles' "She's A Woman" reminds me of my first ride on an R32 (Nov. 22, 1964 on the "QB") and the DeKalb Avenue station; Its A-side "I Feel Fine" reminds me of 34th Street-6th Avenue station and a "F" train of mixed R-6s/R-7s, coming home from the Macy's parade.
Fast-forwarding to 1971 - "Uncle Albert/Admiral Halsey" is MY Canarsie Line song, with R-7s and R-9s growling up and down the line and the blue/green (sky/seawater) tiles of the (Admiral) Halsey Street station. There are lots of other songs that bring back subway memories; those three are just a few.
Wayne
Wayne-Mr.Slant 40,
One song I failed to mention was the Beatles singing that haunting
tune "A taste of honey". That song was replaying over and over when the spot I secured on that front window of the Third Avenue local was
heading south to 149th St. I guess the line in the song that goes
"I will return,yes I will return. I'll come back for the honey and you". It was days end and time to return to Brooklyn.
Although recorded in 1966 we could link up this song and make us remind ourselves of the R-68's. You know,"They're coming to take me away ha-ha"!!
Bill Newkirk
You mean this??src="http://www.wavplace2.com/jan98/coming.wav">
You mean this (try not to let an HTML tag span multiple lines on this board, also, preview messages before posting):
Actually the preview showed the speaker, but thanks anyway!!
Actually, "A Taste Of Honey" was released in 1964 as part of The Beatles' "Souvenir of Their Visit To America", on V-J (Vernon-Jackson?) Records - VJEP-1-903 (Master 64-3915, V-J used the year as part of the master # prefix). There are four songs on this 45 - "Misery", "A Taste Of Honey", "Anna" and "Ask Me Why". Methinks they were all recorded sometime in 1963 - all of the Beatles' non-Capitol work dates from that year except "Twist And Shout"/"There's A Place" (Great B-side - only 1:49), which may have been from very early 1964. I just put the EP on to play and EEK! Hissing Noise! Sounds like air brakes. That earned it a trip to the Discwasher and the second go round, it's MUCH better.
I acquired "Abbey Road" the very same day I took my final trip on the Myrtle Avenue El - October 3, 1969. So, "Come Together", "Something", "Maxwell's Silver Hammer", "Here Comes The Sun", "Because" and "I Want You (She's So Heavy)" ALL remind me of either THAT trip or one of two trips that would follow shortly after - Oct. 18, 1969 and Nov. 8, 1969. The Nov. 4, 1969 trip has its own set of memory songs - i.e. "Take A Letter, Maria" (the "KK" train song), "Suspicious Minds" (Eastern Parkway), "You Can't Always Get What You Want" (the R40M "EE" with Brake Test numbers), Tony Joe White's "Roosevelt And Ira Lee" (a dim Slant R40 on the "F", #4249). I had a lot of fun in the subway in 1969. And lots of songs to associate with those trips.
Wayne
And, of course, the Mets won it all on October 16 of that year. I still remember it as though it were yesterday.
I have a few musical associations with the subway. For instance, whenever I hear the alla turca movement of that particular Mozart piano sonata, I visualize the string of R-29/33s I saw laid up on one of the IRT lines visible from the Cross Bronx Expressway on June 4, 1967. The violin solo in Debussy's Prelude to the Afternoon of a Faun brings up an image of shiny new R-32s in July of 1965. And when I hear the theme from Welcome Back, Kotter, the whole BMT Southern Division comes to mind.
Got to Penn at 7:30, went to downtown E-C. Water pouring down onto
tracks. See problem w/ uptown A. Downtown C comes thru station but
doesn't stop. Go over to downtown A as platform is dry. No train.
Downtown E approaches on local track. Run over there. Train stops
but I can't get thru crowd so I miss. Train pulls out.
Police then come into station telling people to evacuate. Get Block
Ticket and head over to 1-2-3-9. Trains not running. Got another
Block Ticket and went up to catch M10. Walk back to 36th & 7th to beat crowd at Penn. Bus comes, can't get on. Chase bus to 34th and
duck in the back door. Found another Block Ticket on bus. Got to
Varick and North Moore at 8:50. Rain has stopped.
Now, I am ready to go home. Can't wait to use those three block tickets...
Looks like the best bet is to take a cab. What happens if a hurricane
hit the city.
Cabs? You saw Cabs? When? Where?
Hurricane Hazel hit NYC in 1954. Wonder how badly service was disrupted back then.
What about Hurricane Gloria about 102-12 years ago?????
3TM
How about that water main break in Harlem years back?
The water main break in Harlem occurred at 135th and Morningside Avenue when the crown of a vertical hydrant main blew apart. The 125th Street station was a moat, and the brand-new R68A "D" train there was severely damaged by the water, which reached its windows.
Hurricane Gloria, which paid us an unwelcome visit on September 27, 1985, wrought its worst damage upon Long Island, where the eye came ashore between Freeport and Massapequa. NYC, on the west side of the eye, got less of the wind than points east. The rain associated with Gloria, while substantial, wasn't as bad as what NYC got Thursday.
Plus, the storm was moving at about 20-25 MPH. When the eye passed over our house in New Hyde Park at 11:55AM, I saw blue sky and puffy clouds and the sun came out. Then the grey wall of the back side began to appear. The worst was yet to come, and when it did, it did so with Northwest winds in excess of 100MPH, downing hundreds, if not thousands of trees and knocking out the power from 12:18PM Friday to 10:02AM Sunday where we were. I never saw wind like I did on the back side of that hurricane. It was strong enough to fell telephone poles.
The worst of these winds occurred between 12:30PM and 1:30PM. The additional inch or so of rain came in bursts. By 2:40PM, Gloria was gone, the sun reappeared and out came the band saws and chain saws.
Wayne
As I recall, Gloria led to the cancellation of the UConn-Yale game, which was not rescheduled. Yale has finally dropped us from their football schedule, ending a 50-year rivalry. We had been beating up on them in recent years after they had built up a 31-3 winning edge. Too bad we couldn't beat 'em when I was there...
Getting back on topic, how badly was the LIRR disrupted in Gloria's aftermath?
The Oyster Bay, Port Jefferson, West Hempstead and Port Washington branches suffered worst, due to the proximity of trees to the tracks, and their propensities for falling down. Other branches had their power disrupted. The West Hempstead branch was out for a few days after the storm. Long Beach had the Channel Bridge knocked out of service too. These are the only ones I can remember off the top of my head.
Wayne
Does anyone still use the West Hempstead Branch??
[ Does anyone still use the West Hempstead Branch?? ]
Despite the LIRR's dire wishes, people still do use that branch. Someone in my office uses it every day. Although I think he only uses it one way, because the schedule is so sparse..
What about the infamous "Storm of the Century" Nor'easter back in Oct/Nov 1993? Loss of power to the signal system in Brooklyn torpedeoed service just about every line on the BMT Southhern Division south of De kalb Ave. Tried to board the R train at 59th Street en route home from the eye doctor and was greeted by a stalled R-32 N train half-in and half-out of the station. Got the BLOCK ticket from the toekn clerk and spent 25 minutes in a windswept downpour on the corner of 3rd Ave and 60th Street waiting for the B-37 bus.
1993-94 was pretty nasty from a weather standpoint especially the winter. Since I was attending Kingsboro College at the time I ended up taking the subway out to Brighton Beach to meet the bus. during some of the really bad cold snaps.
I'll never forget the sight of R68's on the D line throwing lots and lots of sparks due to ice buildup on the 3rd rail down onto Brighton Beach Ave as it was rounding the curve near Coney I. Ave.
Should have taken the B63 instead???????? I remember that too because I was in high school. I remember the vice principal saying: "There is no D service at this time. F trains are running sporadically." At that time I had a bus pass. A lot of my friends did not what to do so I directed everybody to their destination....... I did not mind since I took the bus anyway..........
3TM
What about the infamous "Storm of the Century" Nor'easter back in Oct/Nov 1993? Loss of power to the signal system in Brooklyn torpedeoed service just about every line on the BMT Southern Division south of De kalb Ave. Tried to board the R train at 59th Street en route home from the eye doctor and was greeted by a stalled R-32 N train half-in and half-out of the station. Got the BLOCK ticket from the token clerk and spent 25 minutes in a windswept downpour on the corner of 3rd Ave and 60th Street waiting for the B-37 bus.
1993-94 was pretty nasty from a weather standpoint especially the winter. Since I was attending Kingsboro College at the time I ended up taking the subway out to Brighton Beach to meet the bus during some of the really bad cold snaps.
I'll never forget the sight of R68's on the D line throwing lots and lots of sparks due to ice buildup on the 3rd rail down onto Brighton Beach Ave as it was rounding the curve near Coney I. Ave.
In September of 1960, Hurricane Donna hit NYCity. I don't know what it did to subway service but I remember the candy store on the corner of 249th St and Union Turnpike with water over the windows (at least 7 feet deep). Of course at 11 years old, that seemed like a lot of water.
Ah yes, I remember that place! One of the last old-time candy stores, still in existence as of 1984. We used to take our laundry to the laundromat a few doors west, and I bought countless colored pencils at Jerry's Artarama across the street. I wonder if it's still there. Pooh, I was in the area on June 26, and I didn't go there. Maybe next time. I was living in Elmont when Donna hit- we had water coming into the house from every crack and crevice. What a mess is right!
Wayne
I worked in the candy store through 1967. Met my first girlfriend there too. Actually, 30 years later, I ran into her near Ft. Lauderdale, where she currently lives. Who'd a thunk it. Since you were musically inclined, you may remember the music store next to the art-o-rama. In 1994, I ran into the owner's son on the Autotrain.
Anyway, just to keep this trip down nostalgia lane, what about my recollections of the creedmore spur? Ring any bells?
Steve
I remember seeing the coal company somewhere along Braddock Avenue, maybe west of 222nd Street. I don't recall if tracks led to it or not. All new houses went up there in the mid-60s. It's entirely possible that the spur went west to it (I'm trying to picture where the spur would have crossed 88th Avenue - right in the middle of that wide intersection near Moline or Pontiac Street?). Don't remember the pipeyard. I discovered the vacant lot in September of 1968 and explored it until about 1972 or so. The spur leading to Creedmoor was pretty much intact. I don't recall seeing a switch going west. But I do remember seeing ties in the weeds along the south edge of the property. They began developing the property about 1973 or so and I moved my exploring to nearby Alley Pond Park, which, thankfully, is still pretty wild. I was up there on June 26th to see what, if anything, had changed since my last visit in 1988. It's pretty much the same but some of the smaller trails have grown over and some of the landmarks I remember from back then have vanished.
Wayne
are the trains running yet? i'm at work and want to go home.
it took me 6 hours to get to work this morning!
please reply ASAP!
Thanks!
SIX HOURS to get to work? Where do you live, Rhode Island?
Just kidding, though. I was about 40 minutes late to work this morning. My route was L train to the A at Bway/East NY station. Then to Jay Street/Boro Hall.
Doug aka BMTman
Mine? Boarded Manhattan bound F at 7:40AM @ Church Ave./Bklyn
Floor is soaking wet...no puddles, completely slick (like someone mopped lots of water aroung)
Helped older gentleman who fell as train left station. Conductor stops train, asks if gm needs medical attention, reminds us all to be careful as the floor is wet.
F goes on G track after Bergen...next stop Hoyt/Schermerhorn
Up and over to transfer to A/C
Wait in packed A train...announcement comes on...going one stop only
Get block ticket...walk a couple of blocks in pouring rain in d/t Bklyn to find 2,3 at Hoyt/Fulton Mall.
Wait 20 minutes...2 is packed....20 more, can't get on the 3
water is gushing up through gate behind me
flee to other end of platform
pay phone won't accept coins
another 2...made my way on
announcement...terminating run at Wall Street
walk 10 blocks to work
sit at desk at 10:15
blah, blah, blah,
just looking to vent
You should of just given up like me. A great excuse to miss a day of work.
Let's see: Got up at 8:45. 8:45 went to breakfast. Left house at 10:30 to some shopping. 2:30pm went to go play mini-golf. On the road at 3:45, back in S.I. by 5:00pm. Went to dinner. Rain? What rain? Didn't see any rain.
(Did I forget to mention, was in the Poconos this morning? It rained a little last night, but nothing like what seems to have hit this place.)
Got on the N at Ditmars Boulevard - a bit crowded due to some delay, but rode on into Manhattan. Got out at Lexington Avenue -- a bit crowded and took a while to get to the surface, but I was at work on time.
The No.1 Trains got lots of water on the seats and floods while sitting at 242 Street Terminal with doors open in the pouring rain.
the trains doors are to be closed once the train has reached its terminal till 2 mintues before scheduled departure
Well...hate to rub it in, but here in Monmouth County (NJ) it wasn't too bad - it rained during the night and on-and-off all day. Left my van at the house so my wife could load it with all of our younger daughter's stuff (she heads back to college tomorrow for her senior year) and took my wife's Mustang - top down all the way to the office. Went out for lunch, top down then too, and back home with the top down too. Glad that I put it up after lunch, though - rain was quite hard around mid-afternoon.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Took my usual 7:21 into Hoboken-pouring rain..no problems on this line...slowed a little on the Bergen cut-off...laughing at the people trying to float their cars under the RR bridges in Hoboken. After arriving at WTC, go upstairs to find out: No E...MAYBE an A..no 1,2 or 3...You think the uptown BMT was crowded...even at 9:30??? I saw at Courtlandt street in this order: an E...an F.....the usual N&Rs...as crowded as Ive EVER seen one line...cant even imagine what it had been like at 8:00! People would squeeze into a car, the doors BARELY closing (after about 5 tries..), the train would pull halfway out and STOP for about 7 or 8 minutes. ( I bet this is the biggest workout the Broadway has gotten since the Manhattan Bridge closed..) After about 3 or 4 trains was finally able to squeeze into a D (!). Would you believe a lady asked if the train would stop at Columbus Circle?. The conductor on this train really had great edge to his voice-he was making all the proper announcements,but you just KNEW he wanted to get the hell out of there!! Anyway, had a nice conversation with people-everybody was incredibly patient! Just Another Day in the NYC Subways.......
7:20 D made it to West 4th with A LOT of stop and go.
Told the train was being discharged, switch to the across platform F.
Whole train moves over, now crush load on the F.
F train announces that the D will leave first and it is out of service.
I go upstairs to the E which made it to 42nd St where it discharged. That was it, could not get into queeens even though the E conductor said the 7 was running, it wasn't.
Went to Mikey D's and returned home an hour later via N to Kings Hwy and walked from there.
Got to D at Ave. J, sign said not running over bridge; cought bus to Flatbush/Nostrand for 5, after 20 min., announcement that 5 not running; take 2; finally make it into Nevins after 1 1/2 hours; train goes out of service. Get on 4 (jammed); goes into Manhattan; stuck in tunnel btwn. Fulton and BB for 45 min.; finally get into BB, train goes local. Sick passenger at Bleeker, stuck 20 min., finally control says to go straight to 14th so other trains can pass. 5 pulls in on express at 14th, take to 42nd, where 4 got off of befoore catches up (still on the local). No trains north of 42nd due to power off; get out and walk to 51st. Total time: 4 hours.
boarded Q at Brighton Beach at 7:35-left 7:55. removed passengers from Service at Church Avenue-B16 to B68 last stop for F train at 15th st-prosepct park at 8:40. let 2 trains go by,too croweded..boarded F at 9:20,ran over 8th av line. took to 42nd st-walked to job.
normal travelling time-45 minutes.
thursday-2 hrs-45 minutes.
Recently I asked how equipment was brought to and from the #7 from other parts of the A division. When moving equipment off from the 7, depending on the time of day, couldn't the equipment be moved down the express track to the end, then wrong-line to the Upper Level of Queensboro Plaza and then reverse, rather than going to HP ?
Yes it can, but I don't know how often this is done. The Train Operator with his train on the middle track North of Queensboro Plaza must receive a call-on to head onto the upper level track. There is no regular signal for this kind of move (the usual double green per say); instead the Train Operator must push a lever to bring the emergency stop arm down once he gets a double red over yellow signal. What does it mean? Take extreme caution while moving to the upper level.
-Stef
There is no reason at all for any train to make that move as the train will have to take a double end to home signal 10 or Bebee Av Middle to turn south again for the BMT anyway. You have a better chance of plugging the road if you move against the flow of traffic, therefore if you follow the westbound #7, when you change ends there is minimal delay and if the juggling act is correct, your brake pipe needle will hit 90 as the eastbound is leaving Hunters point. Going straight over the crossover to the Astoria line is an easier move, it also allows us to set the divirsion valves and the middle track there keeps the road trains moving on both theIRT and the BMT. Most likely in case of the G.O. in the move you described, the Corona to C.I. drags would not leave the yard period.
As I was saying, this kind of a move is RARE. If they're not going to do it, then they won't, period.
-Stef
There is Contract out for bid to resignal the Flushing Line from 111th Street to Main Street Terminal. The work must be accomplished around sporting events at Shea Stadium and Forest Hills Tennis Courts.
Oh? I would think that the customers are going to be inconvenienced regardless of how big or how little construction maybe. Let's wait and see on how this re-signalling work progresses.
-Stef
The only time they do that usually is when a General Order is in effect.
There are basically two ways to make the move from the Flushing Line to the BMT:
1-Relay at Hunters Point. Proceed north to Queensboro Plaza, cross from Tk 2 to G2 Tk, then relay again at Beebe Middle. Requires the least amount of coordination since all moves are made with the normal direction of traffic (exept for the relay at Hunters Pont).
2-Wrong-rail from Rawson Middle. Proceed south to Rawson Middle, accept a Call-On and wrong rail via Track 2 to north of Queensboro Plaza. Cross from Track 2 to G2 Track and wrong rail through the upper level (BMT side)to south of the station where trains are crossed from G2 to G1 Track. Since ther are no relays involved, this is actually faster. However, given the number of wrong-rail moves involved, it's not made as often since traffic on both lines in both directions have to come to a virtual standstill.
You have the right idea, but how often are you going to see that kind of move? You can foul up traffic on both lines, the 7 and the N, or just foul up the 7 with this move by going into Queensboro Plaza and reversing and heading into Beebe middle. But for that, you may as well head down to Hunters Point Av and change ends.
It makes me wonder but, wouldn't moves off the 7 line be much easier if a crossover was installed on the lower level as well??
-Stef
It would certainly make sense.
How would you say it? Rim shot!!!!! My thoughts exactly.
Thanks,
Stef
I just got an idea. Why don't they take one of the abandoned trackways (pre-1949) that goes to the lower level of Queensboro Plaza from the Flushing Line to the Astoria line????
If that were the case, then I think that the diamond crossover at Queensboro Plaza could be eliminated and we'd have a single crossover. How about that?
-Stef
I have a question about NJTs Jersey Ave station. In several posts people mention that there was a turn-off. There is no platform on the north-bound side. If someone wanted to catch the train where would they go?
Does the track lead to a yard or a stub? If its a stub how far does it go?
I don't know the exact length of the track but according to NJT TT No 1 it runs from County Interlocking on the Northeast Corridor Line to the Baldwin St Yard. The platform itself is a short walk from the main. If you want to go northbound from this location you must board a train on the spur track (No5 Running Track).
Larry,RedbirdR33
Just to clear up some track nomenclature...
No. 5 Running trk used to begin at the former Baldwin St. yard and ran West to County interlocking. ( On a Trenton - bound train, the Baldwin St. yard site is the vacant lot west of the Middlesex County Engineer's office North of and about fifteen feet below the grade of the railroad ). It runs parallel to No. 4 trk ( the W/B local trk), it can hold about 20 cars ( the track becomes unusable as it nears Baldwin St.), and is not normally used by live passenger trains.
Millstone Running track begins at County and runs West to the Jersey Ave. grade crossing. It veers sharply away from the main line. It is on this track that Jersey Av station is located.
Jersey Ave. Main station is located nearby, adjacent to No. 4 trk on the (natch) main line. Incidentally, the track that passengers cross to get to the parking lot from this station is the Delco lead, which begins at the Millstone trk just West of County and parallels the main line for about six miles.
I looked at the service notices. The Labor day parade is coming up and the TA have posted up schedules. Some questions.....
1. Will the Franklin Av station close down for the day? There was ways to get around that?
2. How come the info is posted on the 2 and 4 train sites but not the 3? I know that we are a part time train but come on now???????
3. There will be no Franklin shuttle bus stopping at Eastern Parkway, which makes sense..............
3TM
If you've ever been to that parade you'd know it would take the bus about 9 hrs to cross the street!! It even takes a pedestrian an hour to cross!!!
I am a former res........NO IM Still a resident of Crown Heights. I grew up going to Eastern Pkwy. I know what it is all about. The parade and the riots will forever be in my memories.........
3TM
First of all, I appreciate that Steve provides an opportunity for us to bid for the book "Revenue and Non-Revenue Car Drawing Manual." I am glad that I have one of them.
I like this book very much because it includes the drawings of non-revenue cars. Although we seldom see them, they are part of the force to maintain this huge subway system. For example, someboy may know revenue collection car, but what is alcolhol car for? It is used to prevent ice on both rail and third rail.
As for revenue car drawings, I also have the book "Evolution of the New York City Subways," which also has revenue car drawing. "Evolution of the New York City Subway" describes how these revenue cars are maintained, but "Drawing Manual" only has drawings.
There are a lot of very interest non-revenue cars like pump cars, rail grinding units, rinse cars, tank cars, and so on. Also the money will go to Steve's favorite charities-- the March of Dimes and the Guard Dog Foundation. It is very meaningful. Not only you learn about both revenue and non-revenue cars, but also you feel contributing to charities.
If Steve provides another opportunity, I will no doubt try to bid again.
Speaking of pump cars, because of today's terrible flooding, these pump cars (R65, cars PC01-PC03) are busy pumping water now. I don't know when they finish.
Chaohwa
The subways had it's share of problems, but so did Metro North. A train stalled in Mott Haven due to the high floods in my neck of the woods. I didn't realize how bad the rain was until I spotted the drama on this evening's news.
One train stalled. FL9s were sent running to the scene to fetch that stalled train from the area.
A question on my mind is how did Metro North managed to clean up that flood? Anyone here know if they have pump equipment for this kind of problem (what is it referred to as if there's any?)?
-Stef
Reading about the flooding fiascos this morning (made the NPR newscast too, btw) got me thinking...
One very large disadvantage of rail is that if any point along the line is impassable, most or all of the line is useless. NY Subways have a slight advantage because there are a lot of connections. In fairness, so many lines went out this morning that it might have just been too much. I am sure reporters will be asking if all the pumps were working, and if they were designed to pump fast enough. But it sounds like the rain was just coming down too fast.
But Metro-North sounds like a different story. Even LIRR can at least send trains to Brooklyn or Hunterspoint. (But if the power goes out, or there is a fire, at Jamaica, forget the LIRR). But Metro North all depends on the line from GCT North. It is almost useless if this is not passable. Did all those Metro north commuters just give up and try to walk home?
Makes me think that LIRR to GCT is not such a bad idea. If the LIRR opens up some space in Penn, Metro North could run a few trains on the New Haven and Hudson lines into Penn. All in all, it would open up a lot of flexibility for disasters like this one.
I'm still at a loss to understand how the Mott Haven yard flooded out. Is it poorly drained? Low lying? Is this really a freak incedent like MN says it is? Seeing the water on the news - it was quite deep.
They seem to have been caught off gaurd, though there were info people all over GCT durring the evening rush.
From the Chopper 7 photos, it looked to me like the nearby river was ove the yard. There was a high tide early yesterday, as well as a storm surge. Look at this likely happening again.
As for the subways, we got nearly 3 inches of rain in under 3 hours, and the ejector pumps can't work that fast. It also doesn't help matters that people throw their garbage on the tracks, which clog the drains, and can damage the pumps.
-Hank
Hank,
Yes, the river flooded and there was high tide. But there was no 'storm surge.'
A storm surge is a mountain of water pushed onshore by a hurricane in the front left quadrant as seen from the perspective of the eye traveling forward. It is caused by a combination of very low pressure and the force of the wind over the water.
Thunderstorms of this magnitude are not uncommon. However, the complex of storms that affected the NYC area yesterday morning moved extremely slowly.... about 5mph. That is very rare, and why it rained so hard for so long over the same place.
Correction - I meant forward RIGHT quadrant for the storm surge.
It's been a long two days.
Actually, I don't agree with City Council Speaker Peter Vallone on the issue that the TA didn't do enough during the morning rain storm. This storm caught everyone by surprise.
Unfortunately, the amount of rain that fell coupled with a full moon-high tide effect caused flooding damage that was too great for ANY railroad to overcome. Perhaps better communication between divisions and the towers and platform personnel could be improved, but by-and-large there was nothing else that could be accomplished. It was a situation where Mother Nature was flexing her muscles, showing us who's really boss.
BTW, it is most unusual for New York to get rain storms in the pre-noon hours. We tend to get hit with precipitation in the late-afternoon, early evening hours. This was most unusual.
Doug aka BMTman
I agree with you, Doug, that the comments from Vallone were unfounded. Hey -- we have an infrastructure nearly 100 years old that has been neglected for decades. And guess who's to blame for that, Mr. Vallone.... the polititians!!
(Just one comment, though, the full moon/high tide situation had nothing to do with the subway floods. It had a minor influence on the height of the Bronx River flood that affected Metro North, however.)
And that's transit and weather together.
lets face it the Vac Track(vacuum train) isn't doing a great job of picking up debris on the trackway and the slobs who ride the subway throwing papers and stuff blocking the drains added to the disaster...
The MILLIONS of rats down in the subway's drainage system don't help the situation either. And I don't mean the two-legged variety ;-)
Doug aka BMTman
Although Lord knows there's enough of them too!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
The MILLIONS of rats down in the subway's drainage system don't help the situation either. And I don't mean the two-legged variety ;-)
Hmm, I wonder how much it would cost to install oversized disposal shredders (like what you'd find under a sink) in the drainage intakes?
Rather painful for the rats, yes, but the rest of the garbage wouldn't care.
Same deal in Denver. If we're going to get a thunderstorm, it will usually be in the afternoon. A few recent storms dumped as much as 3 to 4 inches of rain in an hour, in isolated locations. New storm drains have been installed at intersections which were widened, which has helped somewhat.
A similar scenario will occur during winter. Either Denver doesn't get any snow, or a foot or two at once.
We did have a full moon and the lunar tide in addition to the High Tide at 9am?
The Mott Haven yard is very low-lying. It is basically at the elevation of the Harlem River shoreline, or just marginally above it. The underground #4 line passes over the Metro-North tracks there. It would be nice if there could be somewhere even lower to drain water to, but it seems there isn't. What about drains to the sewer system - are there any in the yard? Could they br built?
How about pumping to the Harlem River?
Because the thrid rail systems of Metro-North are different from LIRR, I don't know whether the Metro-North trains can go to Penn Station with their own power.
Furthermore, I don't know whether M2/M4/M6 trains can adjust to different frequency of the canatery at Penn, although the power is the same as 11,000 KV a.c.
Chaohwa
From what I was lead to belive Metro Norths MUs can't go over Hell Gate bridge for 2 reasons. The New Haven Line DM MUs can't cross Hell Gate because of the phase break . Secondly ,the Third rail into Penn doesn't extend to the Hells Gate Bridge, so that eliminate the rest of MNCRR MU fleet. This leaves only the Diesls and I'm defineatly sure that they couldn't take up the slack for 4 line all at once.
Well, tinkering with the electrical systems to get MN into Penn should be a fraction of the cost of LIRR access to Grand Central - whether it requires a different type of dual mode or some rewiring. In Europe, there is apparently equipment that can handle 3+ voltages...
No, you could not get everyone to work on time by bringing MN into Penn. But at least you could get some of them! MN shut down completely - that is pretty bad.
In the NY Times Friday August 27, page 1 and continues on B4, is how the heavy rain submerge highways and halt the nyc subways.
After the good folks of SubTalk read the article, try not to get wet, your thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
I can't imagine how bad all that must've been.
A little farther south, the heavy rains didn't come until about 9:30pm.
But it shut down all the trains? Aren't there some kinds of measures in place to keep flooding like that from occurring?
Are there still flooding/problems?
It basically crippled or completely halted service on every north/south subway line in the city at the height of the AM rush.
But there is one good thing to come of all this. Say sayonara to that annoying drought.
Maybe up there. Seems like the only thing that would get our weatherfolk to say the drought is over would be the second Great Flood.
The drought is still not over. What we need to get rid of the drought is a good steady rain for about 4 to 5 days in the area of the reservoirs, or a tropical storm in the same area. We are still low by about 10 percent in the reservoirs.
That rain we had on Thursday Aug 26, is just a drop in the bucket for the NY reservoirs. It went by to fast and came up from the southwest and went to the northeast. For this rain to help it would have to go straight up the Hudson Valley to the NY reserviors and stay there for about 4 to 5 days.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
You can always be sure of three things during a drought:
-Several inches of rain will flood the city, but none will fall in the reservoirs.
-Any rain that does fall will (a) be soaked right into the parched ground and not do any good; (b) run right off the parched ground before it's absorbed and not do any good.
-A heavy rain will be pronounced as doing more harm than good because people will think the drought's over and stop conserving water.
You just can't win.
If subway riders learned how to use trash receptacles if would have removed one element of the flood. The other element was storm runoff from street level into the subways which could have been prevented if the storm drains were cleaned on a more regular basis to handle the rain/deluge that fell..
We had our own problems with flash flooding in parts of Philly(particularly along West River Drive in Fairmount Park).
One thing I heard contributes to the problem is leaves.
Leaves are falling off the trees like rain(pardon the analogy) because of the drought. The trees get little water, leaves start to die, they fall to the street and end up clogging storm drains.
In the NY Post Friday August 27, page 4 is a article about hundreds of thousands of seething commuters were stranded yesterday by the massive flash floods that caused the worst train-service breakdown in decades.
After you swim through the article, your most excellent thoughts are most welcome.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park Blvd.
What stations are below sea level??? Are there any???
York Street?
High Street?
The West end of the R platform at Court Street??
The West end of Clark Street??
Grand Central- Flushing?
PATH World Trade Center?
Uptown F platform at 53rd Street?
I would think that most of the underground stations would be below sea level. Especially in lower Manhattan and other low lying areas. I mean think about where sea level is... go over to the East river Drive or thw West side Highway and sea level is like 5 feet or so below that. So if you have to walk down a flight of stairs to the booth and then down another flight to get to the platform then I would say that that station would be below sea level, or even down just one flight of stairs. Of course there are plenty of exceptions.
But isn't most of New York City at or just above sea level?
On a different note almost all of the underground stations are below the sewage lines.... so in order to pump water out of the tracks, the water needs to be pumped up to the sewer system.
Later,
Chris
How many gallons per hour can the system pump? How many gallons per hour fell Thursday morning? How often does the rainfall exceed the pumping capacity?
The botrtom line is, it is rare for a drainage system to be built that can handle 3" in 2 hours. Most are designed to handle 3" in 24 hours, and this includes the system in New York City. The botom line is that the storm system was just plain overwhelmed.
-Hank
Who's Going To Ride All Of Lower Manhattan To See What The Flood Did To It? I Know I Am!
I'm going to assume that PATH didn't fare much better than the subway and Metro-North after yesterday's incident. Were there any problems on that?
There were 15 minute delays on NWK-WTC and JSQ-33 lines. They apparently had some water problems at the entrance to the tunnels just beyond Journal Square, but nothing serious. They were back to normal very quickly.
Trains originating in Hoboken were NOT affected.
Mike
Someone at my office who comes from Far Rockaway reported that the 'A' train was running over the Jamaica Bay trestle normally without incident yesterday morning!
When you consider all the chaos yesterday and the fact that these tracks are extremely close to the water, this is very impressive.
Usually Rockaway service shuts down at the first sign of rain, snow, wind, excessive humidity or civil unrest.
Considering the recent weather related problems on MNCR and the Subway system, I'm sure alot of us would like a better understanding of how to address our concerns with the responsible parties.
Many of us would like to blame our least favorite governments - the city or state or federal. But in reality, the MTA is responsible for success or failure of the system - even if it requires special planning for "Acts of God."
In fairness to the MTA - I don't really know if there is a good mechanism to communicate with them. If there is, I want to use it.
For that reason, I wonder if anyone can answer the following:
* Who is on the board of the MTA?
* How is it represented? Are the members based on geography or government or service - e.g. members based on locality such as by cityity or New York City government or based on the commuter agency - LIRR or MNCR or CDOT?
* Who appoints members to the board?
* Who are board members accountable to?
* If we are frustrated with poor performance with the MTA, how can
we turn that frustration into responsive reaction?
Thanks for any help in understanding this bureaucracy.
You might want to look at the MTA website. It'll answer most, if not all, of your questions. The website has the 1997 (not 1998, yet) annual report as a PDF document, and it's got more information that you might find useful.
http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us
David
The Governor appoints all members of the MTA Board. Some are recommended to him by the Mayor of NYC. Others are recommended by officials from other parts of the MTA's service area; I forget the details.
Had the chance to take the train from Altlantic City to 30th Street. A NJT GP-40/2 pulled three converted MU coaches for 1.5 hour ride.
Double tracked from the North East Corridor to the first stop at Cherry Hill. Then mostly single tracked (all stations on right east A/C bound side except for Absecon. There were approx two double tracked passing sections but we were early had to wait for the eastbound. We did get up to a good pace for some of the journey, the tree lined right of way left little to see or judge speed.
I loved seeing the PATCO highspeed line right next to us, and we do pass a yard for PATCO as well (unexpectedly, I'll keep my eye out).
The AC station is pure new AMTRAK (who rebuilt the line than lost money on it and gave it to NJT). Tix must be purcahsed via vending machine $6 (no off peak or RT discount) at 30th Street or a $3 charge will be added on train (saw three arguments to this). The conductor did say Amtrak sells NJT tickets to A/C for the $6 but there are no signs to this at 30th Street. At A/C this is a ticket agent for NJT but they can not sell you SEPTA/AMTRAK or other NJT line tickets. At NY Penn the NJT agent could not sell Atlantic City line tickets but would sell SEPTA R7 tix.
On the westbound trip (2:40p) we past two eastbounds so I assume they have an Ostyer Bay (LIRR) type schedule. The only operational problem I see is the interlocking to the Northeast Corridor. You have to make a 4 track cross over heading to 30th Street. I can see some NJT trains waiting for the higher priority Slamtrak and SEPTA trains.
Free shuttle (Jitney) bus to Casinos but easy walking to the middle of the Boardwalk (Baley WildWest/Ceasors).
More importantly, how did you do in the casinos? I assume you didn't
just go to ride the train...
Hello, all SubTalk posters!
I am posting this inquiry at the request of a fellow employee at the job that I currently work for concerning a certain design matter of some notable NYC subway station platform designs.
He had asked me to bring answer this question that could be answered by anyone who knows about this subject, which is...
1. When the NYC Board of Transportation only extended the southbound platforms of the IRT Lexington Avenue line's stations at Astor Place, Bleecker Street and Spring Street in the 1940's, they were designed in a very southward manner. However, when the NYCTA finally extended the northbound platforms of this same line's exact stations in the 1960's, they were designed going northward instead of a one-to-one exact lined spacing format. My fellow colleague wants to know why it was such the case.
2. The IND 42nd Street-8th Avenue station's southbound platform was built between 40th and 42nd Streets, while the northbound platform was constructed between 42nd and 44th Streets instead. Yes, he wants to know why this entire station was designed this way in its original concept.
I hope many of you can give your own answers and insights on this topic, and I wish this post will receive much input on this topic. Thanks a lot!!!
-William
I think the platforms were offset like they were on the Lexington Ave because the curves on the tracks were somewhat less severe in the direction that the extensions were eventually built than if they had built in the other direction. If a train curves west the curve will be more severe on the western local track then the eastern one.
Anyone know what you call the inside of a curve? I must've missed the geometry class that it was taught in.
In the case of 42nd/8th Ave, it's a relatively simple reason: wider platforms. IND planners thought that this station would be the busiest on the 8th Ave. line and built it offset so it could make extra wide island platforms on both sides. The width of 8th Ave would have limited the space to put platforms in had the station been built in the traditional manner.
Last Sunday, August 22, 1999, I finally decided to make a trip on the Washington Heights-Inwood portion of the IND "A" line, which was my former home train route for 31 years and 9 months after I had left my old neighborhood on Tuesday, June 30, 1998. After an absence of 14 months not riding the line up there, I found a few changes of note.
1. The area surrounding the Bennett Avenue entrance of my former home station, 190th Street-Overlook Terrace, was given a slight capital improvement. There is now a new westside sidewalk when you exit the station heading south towards West 192nd Street, permanent "jersey" barriers installed plus much bulldozing of trees and granite outside the parameters of the entrance (plus a new chain link fence on top of itself) to keep the threat of any falling rocks coming down, and the removal of any grass weeds that grew out of the cracks of the prefab stonehead rock structure that surrounding the entrance doors. In other words, it looks so naked!!!
2. The 207th Street Terminal really looks all modern, after its station rehabilitation. The station now features new prefab wall tiling on the train platform level (with the "207" numbering in a different typeface font), new lighting and floor tiles, and an unusual token booth and turnstile arrangement at both mezzanine levels (sealing and closing off its middle section). Of course, much more in detail can be found and seen in the Trains and Stations of this web page with a better description and fantastic snapshots as evidence.
All I can say that just going there on the "A" line's Uptown Manhattan branch even after just one year of not being a regular rider anymore was certain quite a revelation indeed. By the way, the picture images on this web page of my former home station (190th Street) are simply great!!!
-William
YES, and they finally gave 207th Street a real tile band - though its color is unusual - it is the correct shade of maroon/claret red in the center but it sports a 15% Cool Grey border - most unusual! And it is in the correct color family for stations on that line - Red. Now, if they could do the same thing for 175th Street... That station's directional signs in the mezzanine are red (maroon), which indicates that the station's proper color would be in the Red family. The same guys who made the little black plaques for Canal Street did the 207th Street ones - they use the sans-serif font. If you go to Chambers Street, which also has new tile on the "A" platform, you will see that those are in the traditional IND font. And the color's almost the exact same shade as what was there, except it has a black border rather than two-tone dark purple (prune/plum). Check out the eyes
("Oculus")! We got a whole page of 'em in the Line-by-Line.
Nice ironwork too in the mezzanine at 207th Street, along with the "A Journey Begins/At Long Last" artwork. Last time I was there, they were about 75% finished - the elevator wasn't done, and the north exit and mezzanine was still under construction. I wonder if they've wrapped it all up yet.
BTW both 181st and 190th-Overlook stations both to have leaks plugged and ugly peeling ceiling paint repaired. Some wall tile damage at n/b platform of 181st needs attending to.
Wayne
Did you wait for an A train of R-32s or R-38s?
Unfortunately, because of personal time and scheduled arrangements, I did not have the patience of waiting for any particular type of "A" train that I would be riding that day. On that Sunday in question, all the "A" trains that I rode on that date were the R-44's instead.
Besides, my very quick inspection and personal once over of the 190th Street station on that date took place between the 10 minute headway intervals. Surprisingly though, the previous Saturday, August 21, when I was going out to Far Rockaway, the "A" trains that I rode by chance (not waiting) were R-38's going to and from Mott Avenue. When I left that terminal station, I had seen an R-32 train waiting for its turn to come into Mott Avenue because both the stub end pocket tracks were occupied at that moment.
-William
Needless to say, the A line still isn't the same without the R-10s, and never will be.
There is a great program of full simulation of the Kings Hwy Interlocking on the Brighton line developed by Karl Steel. It has an copy of the Maintainer's Control panel and live simulation. It is FANTASTIC!!!! All the charts are in the program including Control Lines, Manipulation and Flashing Charts. Complete explanation of signaling also.
That's great! Where can we go for more information?
Quite frank I don't know. I received the program from someone else. Ask Mr. Pirmann, he might know where you can download it from. Have fun in your search.
Hi Dave, where can I find the simulation that Mr. Train Control has mentioned about the interlocking at Kings Highway?
Dave's on vacation for a few weeks, so you probably won't get a response from him soon...
FOUND IT! It's On The NYC Transit BBS. For Some Reason I Can't Download It So If Anyone Finds It, Tell Me So Maybe You Can Forward It To Me By E-Mail. You Need Hyper Terminal To Connect It. Here Are The Directions...
1) Start Hyper Terminal
2) It Asks You For The Number, Just Type 1-212-492-8069 And Fill Everything Else
3) Register
4) When Connected Type "F" For File Download, "D" For Downld A File
5) When You Get To The Next Menu Select "New Files Recently Uploaded"
6) At The List Type "D" And It Asks You What File. Type "KHWY2000.ZIP)
7)Select A Modem. (Most Of The Time Only "ZMODEM-90" Works
FOUND IT! It's On The NYC Transit BBS. For Some Reason I Can't Download It So If Anyone Finds It, Tell Me So Maybe You Can Forward It To Me By E-Mail. You Need Hyper Terminal To Connect It. Here Are The Directions...
1) Start Hyper Terminal
2) It Asks You For The Number, Just Type 1-212-492-8069 And Fill Everything Else
3) Register
4) When Connected Type "F" For File Download, "D" For Downld A File
5) When You Get To The Next Menu Select "New Files Recently Uploaded"
6) At The List Type "D" And It Asks You What File. Type "KHWY2000.ZIP)
7)Select A Modem. (Most Of The Time Only "ZMODEM-90" Works
I have a working copy but I don't how you can get it. Got my copy for someone else.
GOOD LUCK GETTING ONE!!!
I got it... for those who want the simulation, please e-mail me at jrhorse98@aol.com and we'll try to work something out. I don't know if e-mail attachments allow big zip files.
It's now on this site at: ftp://nycsubway.org/pub/subway/software/khwy2000.zip. I'm goign to make a small page for it when I get some info from the author.
Here's a link to the KINGS HIGHWAY INTERLOCKING SIMULATOR. I downloaded this from the NYCT BBS and reuploaded it to this free web space I had obtained earlier. Enjoy!
ARRGGHH!!! I was about to do that!!
THANK YOU SOOOOOOO MUCH!!!!!!!
Whoppie!!!!!!!!!
Downloaded the program from the Hyperlink.
Anyone else have a problem unzipping it? I keep getting an error, says to use PKZIPFIX, and thenit still won't solve the problem.
Anyone else have a problem unzipping it? I keep getting an error, says to use PKZIPFIX, and thenit still won't solve the problem.
Unzips fine here. Downloads are occasionally damaged in transit. Try downloading it again.
[F:\Temp\7]unzip khwy2000.zip
Archive: khwy2000.zip
inflating: khwy201.CAB
inflating: setup.exe
inflating: khwy202.CAB
inflating: Setup.lst
Use Winzip
Tried that too. Someone else mentioned that it may have gotten damaged in transit while downloading. Oh well, if at first we don't succeed, cuss and try again!
I got it fine, used Winzip to unpack it.
Yeah, something must have screwed up with the downloading, as I re-did it and everything worked just fine on the second try (though that link is slower than molasses....)
Sorry about the speed...
I'll be taking the link down soon, now that Dave has the simulator up on this site.
No problem with the speed, I figured it was just slow because I'm waaaaaay out here on the west coast!
Hello All,
I thought I'd report that the new express track on the Dyre Line, also known as track Y3 is finished. The track is laid down, and has been ballsasted, complete with 3rd Rail. However, the line still lacks signalling.
A question for someone who might know: The junction to and from Y3, at Morris Park and outside of Dyre Av, will it be modified? I figure that now there a track that runs through, Y4 will not be needed and could be eliminated. I would modify the junction and have the train swing through one switch rather than 2. Come off of Y2 northbound and head directly onto the Y3 track (heading to Dyre). Approaching Dyre, let's swing off Y3 and head back onto Y2 without turning into Y4. When the E3 Coney Island Bound express track was eliminated between 59th and Kings Highway on the N was eliminated, the junction which merges the local and express tracks was altered. Will the same thing happen on the Dyre Line?
I'd like to know what's happening at the old NYW&B station at E180th St. The track has been lifted from the structure outside of the station (in the direction of the Cross Bronx). A work train was out there doing work on the other track that lead to the Cross Bronx. Is the TA abandoning yet another section of the NYW&B? From the way it looks, those yard tracks going through the old 180th St station will end in station limits, provided that the track is sufficient for a full 10 car train doing a yard move around Unionport Yard. I would really like to know what's happening over there.
-Stef
I was just wondering what the most massive subway station renovation project was. I'm talking about the most amount of money and time spent to renovate just one subway, underground station. No new lines or construction, just renovation.
The recent project the CTA undertook to renovate the Chicago/State Subway station seems like it could be at the top of the list. The Station will be completely re-done. The project will take about 15 months if on time and heres what will be done: Hadicapped Acess will be added by adding new Elevators ( and possibly escalators???), widening the current narrow stairways, doubling the size of the mezanine level, replacing the material of the two side platforms, and re-decorating with new graffitti free tile and striping.
(I think that is all!)
I forget the figuere, but it was equivelant of what it will cost to renovate the entire Douglas branch of the Blue Line which is Elevated for about 4 miles and 2 miles of ground-level running.
Anything else more massive in NYC or anywhere else?
Just curious,
BJ
I'd bet that the Times Square complex renovation job has to be at the top of the list of the NYC projects. However, if they ever decide to tackle the mess at Chambers Street BMT, they might just wind up spending just as much. That's going to be a renovation that rivals or equals what was done at Ellis Island. They have a real problem with water, erosion, corrosion and associated damage down there.
Wayne
I don't know if this counts, since you're talking about stations primarily, and underground ones at that, but...
Philly is about to *replace* the entire west end of its Market-Frankford Line (MFL). Literally. From 46th-63rd, the MFL is an elevated line, spupported by an aging steel structure. The structure and stations are both in such a condition that they badly need to be outright replaced - no mere renovation will do the trick.
The interesting part is that SEPTA plans to replace the entire steel elevated structure with a brand-new single-post concrete structure, and they plan to replace or seriously overhaul all of the stations, WITHOUT DISRUPTING SERVICE!!!
The entire west end will remain fully operational on weekdays throughout the replacement project.
If that's not a massive, and tricky, engineering project, than I don't know what is...
PS: There are five stations along this section of the MFL that are part of this project...
"The interesting part is that SEPTA plans to replace the entire steel elevated structure with a brand-new single-post concrete
structure"
This is what the MTA needs to do with the A,B,D,F,J,L,M,N,S,1,2,3,4,5,6,7, and 9 elevated structures. Especially the J, M and Z where service really needs to be improve.
The elevated in NY are in much better shape overall than the one in Philly. The el structures are the one thing that the TA didn't completely ignore through the 70s. They won't rebuild the structures just to possibly improve service. Those structures are constatly maintained, and rebuilt in sections as neccesary. Someone is ALWAYS painting them.
-Hank
I just got back from a few days in Montauk.
I saw the Thursday Cannonball just after arrival at Montauk Station. It had a locomotive at each end and 11 double-deckers. I couldn't tell which or how many were posted as "Parlors."
That would be the capacity equivalent of about 17 single level coaches, I figure.
My name will no longer be Brooklyn Guy known as Mr. R68. My new name will be J/Z Train Guy.
In the NY Daily News Saturday August 28, page 3, is a article about as the city mopped up yesterday, an MTA official announced a probe into the way transit agencies handled-or failed to handle-Thursday August 26 unexpected deluge and flooding of the Subway and Metro-North.
After the good folks of SubTalk reads the article, your views on how the transit should have handled the Great Subway Flood.
Charlie Muller of Bedford Park blvd.
They wouldn't flood so quickly if the @#%$#$@% passengers didn't throw their crap on the tracks, where the water carries it to the drains, which promptly clog.
-Hank
I think that it should be noted that the MTA's response to the flooding was handled professionally. "Flash Flooding" is not something that can easily be prepared for. The MTA as well as the rest of the rest of the City experienced the same problems, that being: too many floods at one time, as well as the fact that it happened during the morning rush. I think though it crippled a good part of the city and the suburbs, the NYPD, Sanitation Department, the MTA, The Department of Enviormental Protection, as well as the NYC Department of Emergency Services acted as quickly and as professionally as they could considering the circumstances. They deserve the credit for a job well done.
8/28/99
The LIRR seems to be the only railroad around with gas fired switch heaters. Does anybody out there know if other railroads used or still use this unusual form of switch heating? If the temperature is right and precipitation on the verge,the sight of all those little dancing flames on the switches at night is quite a sight to see.
Bill Newkirk
Yes, many other railroads use them. For instance, I have seen them along the Conrail line in Penna.
I wonder if new ones are being installed, or if they are switching over to electric heaters? Much easier to switch on/off, no refilling the gas tanks (in rural areas such as central penna.)
"The LIRR seems to be the only railroad around with gas fired switch heaters. Does anybody out there know if other railroads used or still use this unusual form of switch heating?"
Metra most definitely uses them, or at least the "Milwaukee Road" lines do. When I take the Milwaukee West line into work early, or home late, on cold winter days, I always take a window seat to see the many "burning" switches in the yard as the train passes through. The bluish flame is quite distinctive, and it's especially eerie in the yards because of the large number of switches.
The CSX, former Southern Railroad still uses propane switch heaters in the south. How's my friend John Bredin, Esq. doing these days?
Does anyone have a track map of NJT in the Jersey Ave station area.
and any map on the running tracks that spur out making the Northbound Jersey Ave station platform?
try raildata.railfan.net/prr/prrnj.html it does not the "jersey ave" station because the map is from 1963. if you look a county interlocking you will see the county yard where the new brunswick locals where turned and stored. it is also on the lead from the milstone branch
E-Mail me at lebanana@aol.com with a snail mail address.
Hi; with the work at Marcy Ave. Station this weekend, when will the first train to/from Manhattan pass through?
I heard from a NYCTransit Conductor yesterday that the resumption has been postponed, with no date given. Suppplemental schedules have been posted for the new pick to continue the shuttles and enhanced alternative schedules on other lines.
Why?
Todd, please be specific, as to which shuttles. The ones operating this weekend, or those that were operating 5/3 to 8/27?
Sorry, Anonymous, I have no other information... just passing along what I was told!
5/3-8/27. The rumor is that this Wednesday regular service will resume.
NewsRadio 88 (WCBS-AM NY 880AM for out-of-towners) is reporting that service over the Willie B is expected to start 5am Wednesday September 1st pending successful test train runs on Tuesday 8/31.
--Mark
I sure hope you're right! (crossed fingers)
The shuttle that ran today from Hewes st to Myrtle was totally unnecessary.The temporary platform at Marcy ave is still up.
This means that service is probably not slated to resume soon as we originally thought. I have not seen a single advertisement stating the return of normal service yet.
I'd agree. When Lenox service went back to normal I seem to remember advertisments well in advance.
Since I didn't read the supplements before talking to Todd, he doesn't know. Unfortunately, since I don't work on those lines, I don't have easy access to the supps. However, you should look for a continyation of service the way it has been operating this summer. The last rumor that I heard was that the Track Geometry car found a dip in the track and that means fixing the problem before re-opening the bridge.
Extra crews have been added to the A and L lines. I believe the M also on the Essex st side.
Technically the MTA has 1 more month before this project can be labeled as "late". However, the contractor who did the bridge work should have his "bonus" withheld if it is shown that it's shoddy work led to the problem with the tracks.
I need to know what the fare structure was on the NYC subway from the 30's through the 70's. Anyone know or know where I should look?
On this site there is a history of the token which gives you the fare from 1953 to the present (doesn't take into account MetroCard though). From 1948 to 1953 the fare was 10 cents. Before that, all the way back to 1904 and before (on the els) it was 5. There was a 7 cent city (not neccesarily private) bus/trolley fare from 1948 to 1950, this was the only time the bus fare was different. A combo bus/subway (or trolley/subway) was maintained at 12 cents from 1948-1950, 15 cents from 1950-53 and $1.50 from 1997-present. Special MetroCard fares are the transfers dating back to 7/4/97. Free rides (buy 10 get 11) to 1/1/98 and unlimiteds except for the one day to 7/4/98. The one day unlimited debuted on 1/1/99. As for the 1948-53 combo fare, you would pay the regular fare on the bus or subway, then buy a ticket in a machine on the station or vehicle for the additional amount and give it to the driver/change clerk (station agent).
Don't forget the half-fare on Brooklyn trolleys and buses until 1948--three-cent tokens if you were under 12. There was also a short time when the BRt tried to implement an extra exit fare at Coney Island.
(The current fare for a ten-year-old is quite an increase from that three cents--fifty times the cost, which I think is a bit beyond inflation. Wouldn't it be nice if minimum wage and bank interest had as high an increase? It seems that only top executive salaries have kept pace.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Any one Remember The Extra Fare To The Rockaways or The fare collected on The Train To The Plane!
I remember the Train To The Plane. But alas, I never rode it. How did that work?
I saw The Train to the Plane many times at Canal Street but never rode it. I'm sorry I didn't because it was probably as close to a private train as I suppose the subway has ever seen. Typically a handful of passengers all in a single car with a cop or two and the conductor to chat with.
The extra fare was collected on the train to the plane via conductors (it's in the Rule book that they can do it). Most of the time it was used by Queens residents and they paid the current express bus fare (whatever it was) to ride it in additon to fare to get onto the subway.
Don't forget the student Nickle fares with bus pass. I don't know what a student pass did on the subway and on the SIRTOA (now Staten Island Railway) you bought the monthly pass each month at the price of 10 cents per school day that month. I had a SIR pass 1984-1986.
Lou from Brooklyn reminds me--in the mid-1950s, the subway pass for high school students was station-to-station specific; you paid in the morning and didn't pay in the afternoon. I don't think there was a charge for the pass. If you needed the pass to go to work after school, you could use it to go to the station near your job but not for a continuing trip home.
Prior to that, in junior high, I had an elementary-school pass (this was pre-TA and pre-15 cent fare) which didn't cost anything because we had moved and I had to travel more than a mile to stay in the same school until February. Usually, the elementary pass cost a dollar. That was a great pass, because I could use it everywhere--subway, el, trolley, bus, trolley bus; it had no restrictions as to line, stations, or anything else.
What's the situation now with school passes?
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Those living under 1/2 mile (800 meters) from their school get nothing.
Those living between 800 meters and 1.5 miles (2.4 km) get a half-fare metrocard, which is white with neon-green lettering. It entitles the bearer to 3 bus rides each weekday from 5:30 AM to 8:30 PM on busses only. User must pay 75 cents in change and is not entitled to a transfer. Computer locks out card from being used for 18 minutes to prevent abuse.
Those living in excess of 2.4 kilometers from school (Including those living 17.5 km away, like me) get a full fare pass. Like it's counterpart, full fare cards issued to those in grades 7-12 are green, while those issued K-6 are orange. These entitle (sp?) the bearer to three free rides on the NYCT bus, DOT franchise bus, subway or SIR. It also allows three $1.50 rides on the DOT express bus. Each use automatically encodes a transfer that can be used just like a standard pay-per-ride MC transfer that will not use up another ride. Once again, the card employs the eighteen minute lockout and runs from 5:30A to 8:30P. The exception to the transfer is that you are not given a free transfer from express bus to express bus (the system has no way of knowing if you paid on the first bus), but you do get a transfer, in that you don't use up a ride, but since you pay $1.50 on both X-busses, it makes no difference.
Both cards are available in 4 ride format for those with principal (or whoever is in charge) approval.
Cards are issued once per semester, and are replaced within a week of reporting lost to the school (I got mine in a day when I demagnetized it).
The current green 7-12 cards are not keyed to particular stations or lines? That's a change from way-back-when.
It's also curious that short-distance riders aren't allowed to use the subway.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
As a Queensite attending Bronx Science, I became pretty familiar with student passes, circa 1975-78. At that time, the passes were theoretically keyed to a station, but nobody ever checked anyway. Subway was free; to ride the bus you had to pay a nickel when you showed your pass (regular fare was $ .50 at the time). You also had to write in the bus lines the pass could be used on, but nobody ever checked that either. I don't know if the rules were tighter in the 1950's, for example, but in the mid-70's a student pass was essentially the equivalent of an unlimited Metrocard. Great if you happened to be a rail fan.... :-)
When I went to John F Kennedy HS back in the mid 80's, The bus and train passes had places where you had to either put in your home staition or school station and on the bus passes, it had the bus line you rode to school. Also, there were also 1/2 fare bus passes for those living within a certain distance. I had a bus pass for a month till I talked the school into issuing me a train pass so I could ride the new Bombardier cars plus travel the city on hooky days. I remember that every month, the passes had a different color and an alphanumeric code printed in large letters on the front to identify either a bus or train pass to officials. I believe the codes were R-1 for train and S-1 for bus.
Not anymore. Now its all Metropasses. There is fault too. People use computers to make copy of the cards. Heard it on the news.
The computers can easily track discrepancies from using copied cards. The cards would be promptlky blocked, and since the card is assigned to a specific person, the cops know who to nail. It's A LOT easier to copy an old paper pass, even the hologram. There was a mention of this in a Spectator (Stuyvesant High School paper) article in 1997.
BTW, It's MetroCARD
I rode on the JFK Express once, in October of 1984. The regular fare was 90 cents back then, with an additional $5.10 collected on the train. We all sat in the last car of a 3-car train of R-46s, and the conductor would open one set of doors at each stop. That route used the 6th Ave. local-to-8th Ave. local connection south of W. 4th St., and once we got to Brooklyn, it had the Fulton St. express tracks all to itself.
As for other fare increases through the years, they went something like this: 20 cents on July 5, 1966; 30 cents on January 2, 1970; 35 cents in early 1971; 50 cents in 1975; 60 cents in 1980; 75 cents in 1981; 90 cents in early 1984; $1.00 sometime in the late 80s; then $1.15; then $1.25; and finally $1.50 today.
I still remember the 20-cent fare with the dime-size tokens. My folks remember when it was a dime.
$1.00 I believe 1986.
$1.15 1990
$1.25 1992
$1.50 Sunday, November 12, 1995
I thank all those who responded to my question about the fare structure. I'm glad it brought us together.
Railway Age Magazine in its website at
www.railwayage.com/breaking_news.html
stated August 24, 1999 that
"The New York Metropolitan Transportation authority will conduct a hearing in September on four different plans to ease congestion on its East Side trains and buses. A plan with considerable support at the MTA calls for construction of a new subway line along Second Avenue from 125th Street to 63rd Street, connecting with existing N and R trains that run to the south of Manhattan. The new line would cost about $3.6 billion and take 10 years to build. Running the new line the whole length of Second Avenue has been ruled out since it would cost an additional $4 billion or more. However, a downtown light rail line costing $1 billion and running from 14th Street and Union Square to the Financial District is part of another plan which also includes the new Second Avenue line. The two other plans involve improved subway service and new bus service. "
Maybe I'm just not getting it.
First of all, since I've never seen a morning rush at GCT,
would I be wrong in saying that the overcrowding on the
Lexington line begins there with commuters from
Metro-North transferring to the downtown subway?
If that's the case, why build the Second Avenue line
between 63rd Street and 125th Street instead of south to
the Financial District where most of the commuters are
going(from 63rd Street to Whitehall)?
I've been trying to figure out the point of building it
where they want it, so could anyone who knows answer this?
If people from north of 63rd were to take the Second Avenue line, then that is conceivably supposed to leave open enough space for the commuters south of there. I doubt that anyone at Grand Central would use the Second Avenue line anyway.
Yes. The bulk of the crowds on the Lexington Ave. trains come from straphangers who commute from the Bronx. These trains are already packed even before entering Manhattan. The theory behind the 2nd Ave. line is that it would provide an alternate way of Upper Manhattan residents to get downtown while avoiding the Lexington line alltogether.
If anything DONT BUILD LIGHT RAIL IN NYC! how would any at grade mode of transportation alleve any coongestion at street level? this would be the most insane idea conceived and not improve a commuters travel time...
I would hope they would at least give any light rail line
a reserved ROW in the center of the street.
I'm sure transit planners aren't that stupid.
Broadway El Steve writes,
> I would hope they would at least give any light rail line
> a reserved ROW in the center of the street.
> I'm sure transit planners aren't that stupid.
It's important to remember that you're talking about the New York MTA and if you look at projects like 63rd Street and the elimination of all night time express service (temporary till the buses are substituted) it's difficult not to think they're stupid.
I agree that reserved lanes for LRT (and preempting of traffice signals) is necessary if it's going to work. But that could be done even now--why aren't there truly reserved bus lanes (one in each direction) on every major avenue? Why doesn't the TA (or the City)say that pandering to automobiles must end?
Wouldn't it be the City, not the TA, who will be paying for (and owning) the line? Why isn't the City Council holding the hearings and making these decisions? They are rightfully political decisions that elected people responsible to the voters should be making.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
There ARE dedicated bus lanes. They're ignored by drivers, mostly cabbies.
The dedicated bus lanes are only in one direction (say on Fifth Avenue). I was talking about both directions and the hell with the automobiles.
We shouldn't forget that Henry Barnes took advantage of a bus strike to one-way all the avenues in Manhattan. And it forces bus riders to have to walk a full block to get a bus in the other direction just so cars can move along better (at least in theory). One of the worst examples of the surrender to the auto is Times Square--those are long blocks to walk to 6th or 8th Avenue (especially in freezing rain) or if someone uses a walker, braces, crutches, or a cane.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
You can take an M50 or M42 Crosstown to whatever avenue your destination is. Or, take the subway which is right there.
Amsterdam does this (albeit they do not have the traffic problem/volume we do). They have trams running in dedicated lanes (slightly raised from the car traffic lanes or otherwise clearly separated) which are shared by diesel buses and taxis (which obviously would have to be kept out here in NYC). Only in short stretches where the trolleys have to compete with regular automobiles do they have problems. More coming soon...
You forget something about Second and First Ave. How do trucks and express and intercity buses serving the Manhtattan CBD get there from north of the city? Not on the FDR. Not on the Henry Hudson. Triboro to Astoria Boulevard to BQE to LIE to the Tunnel? Forget it.
They use First and Second Avenues. Its the main through route serving the core from points north. It's fine for the MTA to propose using light rail to try to get the trolley nuts to help the oppose the Second Avenue, but what are they going to do with the trucks, buses, and emergency vehicles? Put THEM in a tunnel?
Your choices are underground or elevated. Cities with real trolley systems have them run in a tunnel downtown.
How serious has anyone taken the idea of converting the LIRR Flatbush line into a subway?
[ LIRR Flatbush Line into a subway ]
This is another idea without a constituency. It duplicates the Fulton Street A/E, which has excess capacity, albeit it would go through to Jamaica.
Where would it go at its two ends? At the western end, it could only take mainline capacity away from an existing line. At the eastern end there's nowhere to go unless you build a new subway line--and you already have two services (E and J/Z) dead-ending in Jamaica in the event they decided to build a line out toward Queens Village or to Springfield Gardens.
And, as the un-icing on the cake, there is ridership on the current line of people in Bed-Stuy who work in the Five Towns area. These folks would lose their one seat ride.
So I think this only looks good on paper.
Yes, the Regional Plan Association had proposed turning the LIRR Flatbush Line into a sort of '2nd Avenue Subway Express Service' from Jamacia. It would also mean extending the current line past Atlantic Junction and going via tube to lower Manhattan, eventually linking with 2nd Ave. This was to be a concession to the TA for the JFK rail link (whenever that gets build).
Paul is quite right, that a mere 3 short blocks north of the LIRR Flatbush Line runs the parallel A/C. And once you take the Fulton Line east to B'way/East NY and switch to the J/Z, you are again following essentially the same route as the LIRR to Jamacia -- and all for $1.50. It would certainly be redundant and counter-productive to turn the LIRR Flatbush Line into another subway.
Doug aka BMTman
Not to mention the fact that the RPA seems to think hooking the LIRR up to a new Second Ave. tunnel at Flatbush and Atlantic would be some sort of 'alakazam' effort, where none of the tunnels for the D/Q, 2/3/4/5 and the B/M/N/R would pose any problem at all. In fact, unless you turned the tracks shaply north and away from Water St. and Lower Manhattan, it would be the biggest ennigeering job since the Sixth Ave. subway was built through 34th St. in the 1930s.
A major, major project for minmal benefits.
I will like to see the second avenue line (main route) end at White hall street (connecting the N and R lines.
Of the main route:
Everyone knows this plan - 63rd via Broadway N/R route.
Other proposed this earlier - Nassau Street route would give stations below Essex Street some meaning (passenger flow).
N Broadway Line
Right. No one commutes from LI to the Financial District.
Why doesn't the RPA suggest connecting the 2nd Ave. Subway to the subway museum spur, and then onto the existing Fulton Ave. Line?
Are there any plans being promoted to extend the Flatbush Ave. line _as LIRR_ into downtown Manhattan? Hard to do, but it would make LIRR quite well connected in NY! (Don't go nuts about this Larry, just wondering) :)
Why doesn't the RPA suggest connecting the 2nd Ave. Subway to the subway museum spur, and then onto the existing Fulton Ave. Line?
Dare I say because the Fulton Street line hardly needs 30-34 trains an hour capacity on each of the express AND the local?
The Southern Division BMT needs the Manhattan mainline capacity before anyone else, IMHO.
(Any plans for LIRR to Lower Manhattan)?
I'm back from Disney, and the answer is yes. The Downtown real estate community is all hot for direct commuter rail access to Lower Manhattan. They want a "one seat ride" from the suburbs, but the MTA counter-proposed a "high amenity subway" accessible primarily to commuter rail riders and distinguished from the "low amenity subway." The suburban subway would overcome the MetroNorth vs. LIRR power problem, but it would require a transfer for both.
I favor a variation on this idea. The city "sells" the BMT Broadway Express tracks and half the capacity of the Montigue St Tunnel to the suburbs for their replacement cost. It builds the Second Avenue subway (lower half) and a new tunnel to replace the A and B tracks over the Manhattan Bridge, as well as the Rutgers connection.
The burbs get their exclusive snobway from Jamaica to Grand Central -- it could be priced like an express bus for City residents. City residents get two of those excess tracks between 6th and 8th Avenues moved to 2nd Avenue. Plus, suburban residents fleeing the subway would open up further space on the Lex. That should give us all the capacity we need, if the internet and occupation shifts continue to move rides off-peak.
I think they would be better off if they built another four track tunnel paralelling the Manhattan Bridge, with the upper level for N, Q and B trains with connections to the Sixth Ave. and B'way lines, while the proposed DeKalb-Rutgers tunnel connector is built for the B.
The lower level would by for an extension of the LIRR past Flatbush Ave. It could come into Manhattan at Pike Street, hang a left at Madison and go over to Pearl St. and turn left again, heading south to the Fulton-Wall St. area.
That would give Long Islanders their direct link to Lower Manhattan and it would solve the Manhattan Bridge problem for people in Brooklyn. The Metro North riders can keep taking the 4/5 downtown for a little while longer.
A better idea will be to create a seperate tunnel into lower Manhattan. And, I assure you, this line will become popular. Besides, a possible new subway line will be a waste, since the line follows the A and C route without any meaningful connections.
N Broadway Line
But there goes the entire possibility of the line being a bargain. And if the MTA/TA/City are willing to spring for a new tunnel, I think the BMT Southern Division needs it first.
That's not the way it works. (Assuming it works at all.) First, "they" decide to hook two things together. Then, "they" build a tunnel between them. "They" don't just develop an urge to build a tunnel, any tunnel, and then start asking around if anyone would like to hook into their new tunnel.
The only one connection it would have will be with the L at Atlantic/ENY..........
3TM
That's not a meaningful connection 3 train.
N Broadway Line
I know but it something.........
3TM
Van Siclen next,step in, step on,stand clear of the closing doors. Manhattan Bound 3 making local stops to Chambers........
It makes no sense. Not only would this line paralell the Fulton St. IND, but it would take capacity away from the LIRR and force thousands more commuters in to Penn Station and Grand Central when the LIRR connection opens. Very counter-productive.
I like the idea of extending this line into lower Manhattan, but strickly as an LIRR line.
I Agree Chris.
Me too.
The problem of an LIRR line or northern commuter line extension into lower Manhattan, for that matter, is the age-old problem of where to put a terminal that would allow build-up of trains like Flatbush or Grand Central. There is just no such spot in existence. Think about it!
Thus, all proposals call for a through line from Flatbush to Grand Central or through line from Flatbush to Penn Station. But even a through commuter railroad line poses problems because of the many existing subway lines, narrow streets, tall buildings with deep roots, and even the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and the FDR tunnel loop at South Ferry. Because of the FRA Rapid Transit/Railroad separation rules which were also discussed in earlier threads, the LIRR conversion to Subway actually presents less capital intensive and more viable options for improving Lower Manhattan Access from the Long Island Corridor. Keep in mind that most, if not many, LIRR customers whose currently use the Atlantic Branch actually use it to get to lower Manhattan and that making it easier to get to Lower Manhattan might actually divert some of the Penn Station passengers.
They could build a terminal in lower Manhattan, or share the WTC terminal with the PATH line. Another possibility is using the Chambers St. BMT station. Move the JMZ lines over to the downtown platform and transfer the uptown platform over to the new LIRR and use it as a terminal for LIRR trains. Trains could use the unused Manhattan Bridge spur trcks to layup trains. A seperating wall should be built between the subway and LIRR platforms to prevent confusion between the 2 services.
As for the maze of subway lines in the way at Flatbush, the answer is simple: deep-bore a tunnel under the whole mess. It works in London.
Another option is to build a new spur off the LIRR north of Flatbush/Atlantic and dig the tunnel to the north, around the whole complex mess. This would provide 2 terminals for Atlantic Ave service: Flatbush Ave. and the new terminal in lower Manhattan.
Response to ChrisR post
I prefer: "They could build a terminal in lower Manhattan, or share the WTC terminal with the PATH line."
Instead of: "Another possibility is using the
Chambers St. BMT station. Move the JMZ lines over to the downtown platform and transfer the uptown platform over to the
new LIRR and use it as a terminal for LIRR trains. Trains could use the unused Manhattan Bridge spur trcks to layup trains. A
seperating wall should be built between the subway and LIRR platforms to prevent confusion between the 2 services."
Because, the path's terminal is in the heart of the financial district. Plus, what you have not mentioned (the most important part of this subject), is that it will: 1) reduce amount of trains needed for peen station, and 2), reduce overcrowding on the subway lines.
A connection with the Grand Central metro north is another possibility. However, wouldn't it be great to have direct access to downtown?
The Nassau line goes through the VERY HEART of the Financial District, the World Trade Center is merely the pulmonary vein. The Chambers (Vena Cava if you will) station is not so far from WTC, you only have to (to continue the heart analogy) cross the Septum (Broadway area).
Response to ChrisR post
I prefer: "They could build a terminal in lower Manhattan, or share the WTC terminal with the PATH line."
Instead of: "Another possibility is using the
Chambers St. BMT station. Move the JMZ lines over to the downtown platform and transfer the uptown platform over to the
new LIRR and use it as a terminal for LIRR trains. Trains could use the unused Manhattan Bridge spur trcks to layup trains. A
seperating wall should be built between the subway and LIRR platforms to prevent confusion between the 2 services."
Because, the path's terminal is in the heart of the financial district. Plus, what you have not mentioned (the most important part of this subject), is that it will: 1) reduce amount of trains needed for peen station, and 2), reduce overcrowding on the subway lines.
A connection with the Grand Central metro north is another possibility. However, wouldn't it be great to have direct access to downtown?
N Broadway Line
If you look at it closely from the track maps and street maps, the underground route to WTC from Brooklyn would be incredibly difficult and thus very, very expensive. Because of proximity, it would have to cross under the Brooklyn Battery tunnel to do that and would probably be well over 100 feet below sea level. So the WTC terminal would have to be below the existing PATH tracks so the trains could make the grade.
Furthermore, I also think that it would be almost impossible to use a reasonable portion of the PATH westbound approach to a southern or southeastern approach.
The PATH Terminal's tracks don't have the capacity to handle both PATH and LIRR traffic. A new level of platforms below the existing platforms would be required anyway for the LIRR.
Per the MTA Lower Manhattan Access Study, http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/planning/lmas/problemsandconepts.html,
the conversion of the "LIRR Atlantic Branch to Rapid Transit" is still considered a top 5 option.
Theoretically, I suppose this would provide a "superexpress" type service to Lower Manhattan from Jamaica and would eliminate the problem of the crush at the Atlantic/Flatbush complex. One of the proposals that I've seen is to connect it to the Montague Street tunnel which they say, (but I don't believe) still has capacity.
Another is a whole new line tunnel, which we already discussed in an earlier thread, which would require either a very deep tunnel under Atlantic Avenue or a diversion over to one of the other streets, such as in downtown Brooklyn to find a route to the Bay.
The easiest engineering-wise, would obviously be conversion to Division A (ex-IRT) standards especially if "wrong railing" the express tracks past West of Nevins were included to move the flyover to easier territory the but I don't think that the MTA would even consider that to be a viable alternative.
Because the City Council could care less. Due to the inanity of term limits, almost all of the Council will be replaced at the next election. Why should they care what happens to New York in the future? They won't be part of it.
term limits might help get the 2nd Ave. line built. Every 8 years there will be fights for City Council seats and these candidates will have to actually fight for something if they want to get elected. Unlike incumbants, which are virtually guaranteed re-election every year and can quietly sit on their @ss and do nothing.
Actually, believe it or not, the light rail plan is for running in mixed traffic on Water Street, East Broadway, and East 14th Street; only Avenue D gets reserved ROW. Unfortunately, that would allow an expensive investment to be swamped by the rising auto traffic levels in Manhattan.
10 years?
[guffaw]
Light Years, 10 Light Years they mean.
Engage Number One
Since when was a Light Year a unit of time?
This is the MTA, they make their own rules.
What is the MTA's definition of a light year then?
What is the MTA's definition of a light year then?
A year with at least 20% less fat.
In TA terms, a light year is the exact distance from 125th St. and 63rd. St. on 2nd Ave, thus explaining why the 2nd Ave. line is still unbuilt 70 years after it was first conceived.
I recently heard that the IND Fulton line had original plans to continue under Pitkin Avenue instead of connecting with the old BMT el. There supposedly is a complete, unused station under Pitkin at 76th Street in Ozone Park. Anyone out there who can validate this? Also, how far was this line supposed to go? Thanks for your help.
The exisitence of the station has been debated here at some length. Based on research of the late subway historian,Dave Rogoff and my own observations I would have to say it was never constructed. The four mainline tracks at Euclid Av(the "A" tracks) continue east on Pitkin Av and stub end at bumpers. The four track subway continues east until it passes under the yard leads from Pitkin Yard to the Grant Av Station and then end at a bulkhead. I don't know if the track extends to the end of the structure or not. I do know that it is sufficiently long enough to lay up a ten car(60 ft) train. One train was laying up here several years ago and didn't, crashed into the bumper and killed the motorman. There is a second set of yard leads from the Pitkin Yard to what would have been the 76 Street Station but these also end in a bulkhead and are now out of service.
Larry,RedbirdR33
As every Subtalker knows, the E. 105th Street station was the last grade crossing to be eliminated in the subway system, in 1973. It was a remnant of the RR line that section had been before it became part of the subway system.
Question: what was the last one BEFORE the E. 105th Street station? Were there any?
I'm discounting the surface railroads that became the West End and Sea Beach and Brighton lines; as railroads, they obviously had plenty of grade crossings.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Kevin, you've got me stumped....perhaps one of the IRT lines in the Bronx (way up there near Van Cortland, maybe???)
I was going to say the Brighton line where it levels off to street grade between Newkirk Ave. and Ave. H. I would assume that going back some years (more than 50) that Ave. H used to continue across the tracks. Unfortunately for the residents, due to the Brighton line -- that neighborhood -- Ditmas Park -- is essentially spilt in two with no thru traffic on Glenwood Road, and Avenues H & I.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug, no Avenue H grade crossing existed once the Brighton was elevated/depressed south of Church Avenue.
An interesting sidelight of the Avenue H area is that a temporary grade crossing existed between the Brighton and Manhattan Beach (Bay Ridge) lines existed during the grade crossing project. Before and after these lines were grade separated frome one another.
In Chicago (still the most segregated city in the US) elevated rail lines still seperate neighborhoods. Go under a bridge, and the neighborhood will "change," as the bigots always warned me. Much as the Archie Bunker types might hate the trains rumbling by, they would die if someone suggested tearing the viaducts down - their walls.
There is one neighborhood, down south, which is a triangle, surrounded on all three sides by viaducts. There are only two ways in and out of the neighborhood. When I was in college, Rich Daley (the younger), in one of his brainstorm-while-on-camera sessions, wanted to take the whole city and turn it into neighborhoods with only one way in - sort of like the gated communities that are all the rage among the paranoid elites. I thought about studying the surrounded-by-rails neighborhod, to see if crime was any lower there than in an economically similar neighborhood that was not so "protected."
[In Chicago (still the most segregated city in the US) elevated rail lines still seperate neighborhoods. Go under a bridge, and the neighborhood will "change," as the bigots always warned me. Much as
the Archie Bunker types might hate the trains rumbling by, they would die if someone suggested tearing the viaducts down - their walls.]
I can't think of any clear examples of this phenomenon in New York. In some cases, the street on which an elevated line runs is somewhat less desirable than surrounding areas - the J/Z on Jamaica Avenue in Woodhaven and Richmond Hill is one such case - but that's logically to be expected given the noise and shadows caused by an elevated line. And it's not a matter of the neighborhoods on one side of the line being distinctly more desirable than those on the other. It's my impression that the neighborhoods to the west of the Brighton line are generally better than those to the east, at least down to Kings Highway or a bit farther north, but these are gradual differences and the line is not a clear barrier in any sense.
Good point Peter. To my knowledge -- in New York, this really doesn't apply to transit lines, but could apply to conventional railroad lines. For example, it is my understanding that in the Nassau County village of Lynbrook that a majority of those of Christian Faith (including Catholics, Lutherans, Presbyterians, etc.) tended to live north of the LIRR tracks, while those of the Jewish faith lived south of the rail line (going toward Five Towns). But, this could be more related to Sunrise Highway, and not the LIRR per say, since the two parallel each other. Any thoughts?
Doug aka BMTman
How about highways. For example the Meadowbrook has East Meadow and Merrick on one side and Uniondale, Roosevelt, & Freeport on the other side.
People tell me that Windsor Terrace has always been a low crime area because Prospect Park and the Greenwood Cemetary isolate it to an extent. Maspeth, Middle Village, Glendale et. all -- the parts of the city no one can get to by accident or even on purpose -- have the same opinion.
Unfortunately, that doesn't explain 'low crime' neighborhoods like Midwood or Cobble Hill. Midwood borders on the less affluent and immigrant-oriented Flatbush section, and Cobble Hill is surrounded by both Sunset Park on one side and Red Hook on the other.
Also, don't totally write off Bedford-Stuyvesant as a 'bad neighborhood' altogether. Back in my youth -- yeah, I was young once ;-) -- I dated a young woman who lived in an area known as 'Stuyvesant Heights'. This area is the part of Bed-Sty where Lena Horne grew up.
The brownstones there are beautiful, with the homeowners taking great pride in the upkeep and restoration of some of these historic homes. There is even an organization in the there that gives tours of select homes in the early summer. Sadly, that section only goes for four or five blocks. It is serviced by the A/C via Utica Ave. station. As a matter of fact I used to get to see her by that line, the exit being adjacent to that park -- recently restored, and across from Boys and Girls High School.
Doug aka BMTman
Thats how they got the expression "The other side of the tracks"
Or the wrong side of the tracks........
3TM
Sutter-Rutland RD-Ralph Av. Transfer available to the B12,B15,and the B78 to Kings Plaza on the lower level. The next station will be Utica Av. Transfer available to the 4 across the platform. The B14, B17 to Canarsie, B46 and B46 limited on the upper level. Stand Clear of the closing doors.....
I think that freight viaducts, which are almost always embankments, are more of a barrier than elevateds. In Chicago, the elevateds are not really dividing lines between neighborhoods. But they are also in alleys, not down the street (except downtown) and often in commercial areas.
Those viaducts could be scary to DRIVE under - they might be up to 8 tracks wide in some places, or wider in yards. Those bridges are forbidding. And of course there is not a bridge every block. Makes for a barrier.
There are a fantastic number of railroad lines in chicago - its mind boggling.
One such mammoth viaduct which comes to mind is the one that crosses diagonally over State St. and then 63rd St., just to the north of the Skyway entrance. That's the intersection where Green Hornet 7078 hit a gasoline truck on May 25, 1950 and was torched. I drove by there eight years ago when I discovered the Skyway onramp from Michigan Ave. was closed. We used to get on the Skyway from State St. all the time back in the 60s, so I knew where I was.
Growing up in the 1970's and into the 80's I lived along
the Long Island Expressway. We were on the South East
side, Forest Hills. On the other side of the Highway is
LeFrak City. Forest Hills was then heavily second
generation Jews, and Lefrak city had turned into a hell on
earth after the owners lost a lawsuit. They were forced to
allow welfare recipients in to the buildings. Now all the
orignal residents left in waves and were replaced with
blacks and hispanics. The LIE acted as "Great Wall of
China" so to speak for many years.
On the Forest Hills side, we lived in ignorant bliss,
while on the other side of the highway, drugs were sold,
prostitution flourished, and violent crime soared. School
districts were different, so we never went to class with
those kids. The schools were so bad on the other side of
the highway, that some parents in LeFrak lied about their
addresses to get a few minority kids into our schools. We
tended to leave those kids alone. They were very different
from us. Willing to use violence, and troublemakers in
class, etc.
Slowly in the eary 80's the original residents of the
neighborhood left and were replaced with Russian
immigrants. Forest Hills was never the same quiet peaceful
area again.
You could say these are the typical examples of "white
flight" but the exodous to the suburbs was fueled by more
than a desire for high property taxes and a long commute.
As urban dwellers we were used to the typical city
problems, but there is a break point. It ussually involves
quality of life/crime issues.
Racism has something to do with it for some. Most people
are too inteligent for that. But facts are. And an
undeniable truth is that most but not all high crime
areas, are low income ones. And most of those are minority
neighborhoods.
Racist? I don't think so. Racism is based on emotions and
ignorance. My opinions are based on facts, experience and
observations. Although I'm sure someone who's not happy
with my statement will seek to impugn my character by
calling me a racist because he's not happy with the truth.
Nobody said you were a racist. I'd suppose that a fact is a fact, and the city is divided into sections, some of which are favorable in the eyes of most. But you know what? Not every person living in a ghetto is a bad one. And who do you blame for the misfortunes of some? Politics? Maybe there was favortism involved. Politicians may have no trouble helping out people who are going to give them something in return. Where's the money that's supposed to help those less fortunate than myself??? It isn't going to grow on trees, that's for certain.
Some folks choose their roads - Some like misery while others, just don't have a choice. Then again, some make death into a fighting chance to live. I have the will to live because I want to. Let me tell you about myself. Some people out here may envision that I'm a guy living in one of those good, decent areas. WRONG. I'm transmitting this post to you right now (as I write) through the walls of housing project in the South Bronx. Does it make me less of a person than anyone else? No way. I was raised with certain values, and I know right from wrong. One day, I will work my way out of the South Bronx, but at this point I have no where else to go. This is not the best place in the world, but I can say that it has improved during the Mayor's time in office. Then again, I might want to give something back to the community, and make this a better place to live.
Racism is for the ignorant, but the facts are the facts, and this is reality. Have an open heart and be tolerant of those less fortunate than you (a general statement, Erik). Some have had a hard life.
-Stef
Who are "those people"?
3TM
We are being held here due to a smoke condition that need to be cleared up.
[Lefrak City and Forest Hills story]
What you experienced first-hand is not an unusual thing. My take on the matter is that most people who live in NYC or other large urban areas have a fairly high tolerance for urban-type problems. Few are so naive as to think that everything should be as peaceful as rural North Dakota. And there's usually also much more of a tolerance for racial and ethnic diversity than you'll find in most suburbs. BUT - there may come a point at which crime, bad schools, and other urban problems will drive out even the most steadfast urbanophiles. NYC may have seen less of this than have many other large cities, but that's not to say that it never happens.
I've also wondered this, but it depends on how you cast the question.
A lot of grade crossings and street running survived the railroads becoming rapid transit lines, but thinking about it, these crossing involved elevated equipment and overhead wire. Does that disqualify them? There were lots and lots.
If you're looking for a small section of grade crossings on an otherwise grade separated section of line, there were a couple around Park Place on the Brighton Line until c.1903. The line was depressed south of Park Place, ran a couple of blocks on the surface then ran up a ramp onto elevated structure to cross Atlantic Ave. and connect to the Fulton Street Line.
As to revenue service third rail crossings of public streets by subway trains within NYC, I'm almost inclined to say E.105 was the only one.
Such crossings still exist in Chicago.
Was there one on the Myrtle, just before the end at Metropolitan. Although I don't remember seeing it, I seem to remember reading about it. BTW, talking about grade crossings, thats one of the reasons I like the Montauk branch of the LIRR from LIC to Jamaica. One diesel whistle after another.
You're probably right - I remember seeing a picture of the FreshPond Rd. station from around 1910 or so, before the Dual Contracts and the subsequent construction of the el. There was a grade crossing immediately south of the station where Fresh Pond Rd. crossed the tracks.
So you're saying the Myrtle Ave El descended to the surface at one time, before it was an el all the way to the train yards near Metropolitan Avenue? Now, it's an el until you cross the LIRR Montauk branch.
Yes, the Myrtle was on the surface (prow -- the so-called Lutheran Right-of-Way) I believe from a point near where it turns off Myrtle Ave.--with grade-crossings.
And for good measure, Jamaica Line trains ran on the surface on trolley trackage all the way from near Cypress Hills to Jamaica, though I believe this lasted a short time. The trains accessed Jamaica Avenue from a ramp.
However, all these grade crossings were trolley wire affairs. So I still haven't thought of any third rail grade crossings other than E105.
Kevin: Although it was non-revenue trackage there was a grade crossing at 98 Street and Lexington Av connecting the two halves of the Manhattan Railways'98 Street Yard.
Larry,RedbirdR33
the H&M (path) had a grade crossing in jesery city arcoss by the old topp watch band co. this was west of jornal square.
I know the Lexington Ave. el in Brooklyn had a grade crossing with the Broadway line south of Gates Ave, but wasn't there also a grade crossing where the el connected into the Myrtle Ave. el at Grand Ave?
I believe the question is public highway grade crossings with a regular service third rail line in NYC, and so far we haven't identified any other than E.105 on the Canarsie Line.
Should the Staten Island Rapid Transit route(s) be included in the grade-crossing lists?
That would add quite a few, I'd think.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Not according to the original question, which, I think, was which subway grade crossing was the last to be eliminated before E.105.
When the last SIRT grade crossings went (1966, IIRC) it was still a subsidiary of B&O.
If the LIRR counts, the Little Neck Pkway station is electric with third rail and has a grade crossing in NYC. But I do think Kevin Walsh meant the subway system when he posted the question.
The SARGE-my homepage
my trainbuff page
Chris; Your right. What I was refering to was a grade crossing where motor vehicles cross rapid transit tracks.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I have pictures dating from the 1930's showing a large grade crossing with third rail tracks on Atlantic Ave. and the current intersection with Rockaway Blvd back when the Fatbush LIRR ran on the surface. I guess this wouldn't be considered as a "subway" grade crossing.
Well, before 1916 the Flatbush LIRR branch crossed the Bay Ridge branch at grade -- along with whatever trolley lines may have been there at the time. That area was a dangerous MESS of street trackage (as a railfan it would have been interesting to see in action, however).
In 1916 the Bay Ridge was depressed into it's current viaduct setup running along Van Sinderin Ave. It goes into a long tunnel beneath both the Flatbush LIRR -- which runs approximately at street grade by East New York -- and the major subway junction of B'way/East New York (A/C/L/J/Z lines). Somewhere around Crescent and Johnson Streets the Bay Ridge line emerges from the tunnel and continues on an embankment, running north past the Wilson Ave. station of the 14th street (L) line.
Doug aka BMTman
In "The Long Island Railroad In Early Photographs" by Ron Ziel there are great pictures of the early Atlantic Av branch. On pgs 12 & 13 there are pics of steam engines on the Atlantic line in the 19th century. One was actually WEST of Flatbush! ON pg 59 is a 1931 picture of the tower at Woodhaven Junction controlling both the Atlantic Line (at grade level) AND the old Rockaway branch on an el.(As it still is, abandoned) On pg 60 is a picture of the Autumn Av Station on Atlantic Av (at grade East of Pennsylvania Av) Atlantic Av ran on each side of the line as it still does at the ENY Av station.
Photo of the first train using the new tracks at the NYC website.
[Photo of the first train using the new tracks at the NYC website.]
Heh heh, your post had me fooled until I checked out that link!
Good post!
Is there a date? Was the picture taken prior to opening of regular service or is that a Sea Beach going to Chambers Street? Since it's only go two cars, it looks more like a test train--and with that fellow walking along the track, the test train would make sense.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Date = June 24, 1915. So it's during the first few days of service. No indication whether it's an in-service train or not.
Thanks for the date of the Manhattan Bridge picture. I don't know if they ran two-car Sea Beaches in regular service (ever).
Without the upper deck in place, the picture is reminiscent of the pictures of Grand Central from the north when all the upper-level platforms were out in the open air. Those views of GCT still astound me when I see them because Park Avenue and all those buildings in the East 40s and 50s have been there all my life and it's difficult to visualize anything different.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Probably a two-car train because: how many Standards must the BRT have had in service at that point in time??
In 1915? Probably no more than 200 - #2000 thru #2199. The others came later.
Wayne
There was only limited places that were built to handle BMT Standards in 1915: The Sea Beach line and the 4th Ave line. All other BRT lines were either in the process of being rebuilt to handle them or not built at all. 200 sounds like a lot.
BMT Standards were delivered at a rate of 100 per year, so in 1915 there would have been between 100 and 200 on the property, regardless of where they could be used. The last were the trailers delivered in 1924. Unlike the modern MTA, the old BRT company planned ahead.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
According to a plaque at Newkirk Avenue, the Brighton Line was done in 1908. But, it had to connect via the Fulton El, which made it as good as unimproved (like the 3 Ave El from Fordham Rd. to Gun Hill Rd).
I don't think Standards started running on the Brighton line until the Flatbush Ave. connection opened in 1920.
Yes, because as I mentioned, it connected ONLY to the Fulton El and was therefore as good as unimproved.
Right. And the Broadway line was still under construction as well, so in 1915, both the 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines terminated at Chambers St. Interestingly enough, the BMT standards were supposed to take over Broadway-Brooklyn service as soon as they began arriving, but that line wasn't fully upgraded to handle subway equipment until 1916.
The Standards were ordered 100 per year from 1914 to 1922, so there should have been at least 100 around by June 1915, maybe more.
I love the new track worker uniform... suit and tie, along with the derby... ;-)
Mike
Cool picture! Was that taken last week? (ha, ha)
Note the "Chas.Fletcher" script seen partially at the right side of the picture.
This was an ad for Fletcher's Castoria, a product still sold today. Fletcher's florid signature adorned dozens of brick NYC walls in the early part of the 1900s; a couple dozen faded ones can still be spotted today.
www.forgotten-ny.com
DON'T LAUGH!!
Went over the bridge today, they are doing ASBESTOS REMOVAL from the towers. Looks like more delay, I though that would be the first thing the get rid of!!
A**-Backwards if you ask me......
WHEN OH WHEN WILL WE GET BROADWAY EXPRESS SERVIVCE????
i hear 2001 we get it back,but when will they do the express platform at Canal Street to prepare for it?
Work seems to be proceeding on it now. Both the tiles and the exits to the north sided of the street.
Have they fixed The Leak yet???
Wayne
They don't call it Canal St. for nothing.
Rim shot!
I heard The Leak was going to be diverted to Chambers St.
Exit - stage left.
There is another A train directly behind us! Stand clear of the doors.
Asbestos? Not lead paint removal?
Ummm ... he wasn't kidding when he said "first train" :)
--Mark
The photo is dated June 24, 1915. The 4th Ave. and Sea Beach lines opened for business on June 22. Although for a moment there I thought the BMT standards had been resurrected!
That would be VERY nice, indeed!.
I had a novel design idea for a BMT Standard replica - it has PCC lights (with flourescent bulbs), fans (with brass housings) AND A/C which runs out of little round 14" vents (like you see in ceilings) every so many feet. The ceilings at the car ends would be lowered to accomodate the Stone A/C units (the same ones as in the GOH R32's - freezing cold!). The handholds and standee poles would be stainless steel core with a porcelain enamel finish to make 'em look authentic. The seating arrangement would be the same except there would be padded bucket seats (in shades of brown, tan and yellow OR red/grey). The bodies would be stainless steel tinted dark brown. End destination signs would be kind of like those in the R42 but the window would be smaller.
Just a fantasy concept....
Wayne
Dear Paul Matus:
The South side tracks will be back in operation around 2003.
When the South side tracks open, most likely, the North side tracks
will close. The Broadway Line service will be increased tremendously.
The N will most likely return to express service. The Q will be re-
roued back onto Broadway, the rerouted West End service will become
the T, and the rerouted Brighton Local maybe rerouted U or W and maybe
rerouted via the Montague Street Tunnel 24 hours a day. The R service
will not change. The B and D trains will terminate at 34th Street-
6th Avenue or Broadway-Lafayatte Streets, or even Grand Street.
James Li
The service plans for this eventuality have not been decided on as of yet.
Personally, I'd seriously think the TA should think about connecting the south side tracks to the sixth ave. line on the Manhattan side temporarily, so no major service changes will be needed.
Personally, I'd seriously think the TA should think about connecting the south side tracks to the sixth ave. line on the Manhattan side temporarily, so no major service changes will be needed.
Not physically possible without major construction, maybe not even then.
Not likely in any case, as they didn't even connect the north side to the Broadway lines, which could have been done, at least as a stop-gap measure, much more easily - just run tracks through the original connecting tunnel, and put a swich just off the bridge - there would have been a crossing at grade, but that still would have been better than no Broadway express service at all!
subfan
The tunnel from the north tracks to Canal St still exists. It is possible, with some work.
The reason it would be difficult or impossible to connect the south tracks on the Manhattan Bridge to Chrystie Street is because the Chrystie Street tunnel veers off the north side bridge tracks at a sharp angle immediately at the end of the bridge.
To connect the south side tracks, you have a number of not very palatable choices:
1. Have the south side tracks cross over the highway lanes to reach the Chrystie St. tunnel. DOT would love that.
2. Have the south side tracks descend an even steeper grade on the non-suspension part of the bridge to go underneath the roadway. You would probably need to have the south side tracks come up on either side of the existing Chrystie tracks.
3. Build a new tunnel (with a grade crossing?) west of the bridge underpinning existing structures to loop back east and connect with Chrystie St.
By the time the engineering drawings were prepared, they could have both sides of the bridge reopened, if they really made it a priority--unless, of course, the "dirty little secret" is that they're scared to restore full train service on the bridge ever because they're afraid the essential bridge structure can't take the loads.
Remember when, during a pause in construction, the TA unilaterally reopened both side of the bridge? NYC DOT had a cow and forced the TA to reclose one side.
If that's so why sink millions of dollars and decades of time into repairing the bridge when the whole fundamental problem causing the trouble is completely un-fixable. Why not just quit NOW and start building replacement tunnels?????????
There has to be someone connected with this project that has come to the same, unavoidable conclusion.
Not to mention tunnels would cut the amount of time it takes trains to get from Dekalb to Grand/Canal in half.
Apparently, some consultant concluded the bridge could be fixed, and the city took him up on it. Once the decision was made to repair rather then replace, that was it. The point of no return. Unfortunately, the cracking continues, no matter how much repair work is done.
As Yogi Berra once said, when you come to a fork in the road, take it.
The story I've heard is that an engineer told Koch to replace the bridge, but it wasn't what he wanted to hear, so he hired another who told him it could be fixed for $100 million.
I actually heard a state DOT official say if we knew then what we know now we would not have tried to fix it, but with so much money already spent.... That's why I call it the infrastructure Vietnam.
I wonder how much money it will cost the city when the dozens of wrongful-death lawsuits that are sure to come when the bridge collapses.
I now say a little prayer whenever I cross the bridge.
Da-da-da-da-da-DA! (HONK!) Good one, Steve!
God only knows how long it will take them to do whatever they have to do to the north side tracks starting in 2003. Exactly what do they have planned there, anyway? More of the same nonsense? Let's get the guys who built the Chunnel over here to build us two new two-track tubes. Looks like the only way out of this morass.
Wayne
Out of sheer curiosity - they're planning to shut the north side of the bridge - just how long will THAT take them to finish? Another fifteen years? WE HOPE NOT!
Wayne
They say 2 years, but that's 2 "MTA"years, which is like 8 years to you and me.
If they close the North Side in 2003, not 2001, it doesn't matter how long it takes, since Pataki and Giuliani will be gone. Maybe that's why they are pushing it back. Perhaps they'll open both sides for a couple of years, hoping to get lucky, then have them both shut down after they're gone.
Sounds to me like a project that will be delayed even longer than it already has. It will probably be 1-2 years later with all the delays for whatever reason.
Well, my younger son and I made it down to the East Penn/MTS Imports Fall Trolley Extravaganza in King of Prussia today. It was a nice ride down in Mary's convertible (she's got my van moving our younger daughter back for her senior year in college) - we took the back roads all the way down and that, coupled with a few wrong turns (OK, so a couple were on purpose), enabled us to see a number of oddities on the mainlines and branchlines. The highlights - an Amtrak work train on the NEC bridge over the Schuylkill, a Septa work train at Norristown (on the rail line, not the ex-P&W line), CSX engines on an unknown branch line, and a pair of CSX yellow-nose six-axle units in the yard next to Broad Street station, sitting all by themselves.
The trolley show was reasonably good - I don't think there were as many operating modules as usual - I know there weren't in the HO setup - but there was plenty of operation for those interested in watching. Plus the usual collection of books and models. I didn't spend as much as I would have liked to, but I'm sure it was more than my wife will approve of when she gets home tomorrow.
We also went downtown to the Septa building, saw the PCC in the basement, and poked our nose in the musuem store. That was a frustrating experience. We lucked out on parking - a space on the street only three blocks away - but when we got to the Septa building at 2:15 we found that the museum store was closed until 3 PM. Parking is a maximum of one hour, so when the store hadn't reopened by 3:10 we headed back to the car and fed another couple of quarters into the meter (after noting that the meter maid hadn't come by yet and chalked the tire). Then back to the store, which didn't reopen until nearly 3:30 when the clerk lumbered back in from her shopping spree at Kmart. They didn't have much - the book selection was good, but nothing there that wasn't at the trolley meet for at least 20% less - but I did manage to get a copy of Carson Home Video's Heavyweights Under Broad Streetthat I hadn't seen offered anywhere before (although I've heard about it). Hopefully it will be a decent film - I'm going to try and find time to watch it tomorrow and I'll post a report.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Yep, the transit museum seems to be staffed with less than railfan
friendly or enthusiastic cashiers. I left work early and ran
(literally) over there one afternoon to find the doors locked at
2 minutes before closing. (my watch is set by atomic clock via the
net, blah blah blah :) I knocked and nicely told them I knew
exactly what I wanted, but nope, to no avail.
HUBS is not bad, but like the net brochure says, very few run-bys.
There's some footage as the musuem train pulls into the station,
but after that, only one interior shot. Still, you get to hear
the motors - some would argue that alone is worth the price.
(Also, there's no mention of the types of cars. The museum train is
made up of 1 North/1 South/1 Bridge car, if I recall.) Nevertheless,
considering that SEPTA's only use for those now-BO trains is to
keep bird droppings off the ties they reside over :( it's good to see
them run, if only on tape.
FYI, a great way to see those cars, if anyone is in the area and
cares to, is to head out to the Fern Rock shop during rush hour.
The museum cars are on the innermost yard track, but when all B-IV's
are in revenue service, they're very visible from the parking lot.
On that topic (eesh, what else does this Lee guy talk about, right? :)
I saw the bridge car at Rockhill this past weekend. The entire
interior was torn out - unfortunately, the person working on the
car decided to work on (Shore Line's?) bridge car instead. The old
girl looked so sad - remnants of David Gunn red BSS paint, destination
signs torn out, ends blocked off by other trains. The only thing
that seemed intact were the two hangstraps in the middle by the end
doorways.
Finally, what say we bring back the Liberty Liners? A commute home
with a bar is far more fun! :D
As far as I know Shoreline does not have a bridge car. They do have an H&M subway car though
Whoops, that would be Seashore in Maine. Sorry about that!
Finally watched the tape. You're right about the runbys, that's for sure. I was more interested in the route since I've not had the chance to ride the Broad Street line, only Market-Frankford and Patco. Glad to see the shots of Pattison Avenue lower level since I doubt I'll ever have a chance to get there, even if I do eventually ride the rest of it. Worth the $22 for the trip.
Wonder if anyone will ever chronicle the entire NYC system, including South Ferry inner loop, City Hall, Bergen Street lower level, etc.? (Mark, are you listening?)
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Broad St. Station? Hasn't that been gone for 50 years or so? ????
As for the transit museum - never got there myself, though I am not sure I have ever been there when it was supposed to be open. But it does not make you optimistic about the work ethic at Septa, does it. They had better be serious about change...
OK, better put brain in gear before putting fingers on the keyboard. Shall we try 30th Street?
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Does anybody have an official NYCTA subway map from 1985 when the Manhattan Bridge north side was closed and the double letters went away?
Actually that's an 86 map, which I have. It has the Manhattan Bridge diversions in a small box in the lower left hand corner, explaining the "temporary service changes" which will be in effect only from late April until early October 1986. LOL!
Even had the Brighton line D/Q skip-stop service.
The map which showed the Manhattan Bridge diversions in full detail came out in May 1987. It's easily identifiable because of the brown "R" Nassau St. special which follows the entire 4th Ave. line.
Want to sell it? What were the services affected by the bridge reroute and how did they run?
Of course I'm not selling it. It's kind of all torn up but the map says that the B, and D went on the north side and the N,QB went on the south side. The reroutes started in 1987 when the north side closed. The B,D,N and Q all used the south side. Services ran a follows
1) D's ran in 2 portions from 205 Street - 34th Street and 6 Avenue and 57th Street and 7 Avenue - Coney Island
2) B's ran in 2 portions from Coney Island - 57th Street and 7 Avenue and to Ditmars Blvd during rush hour and 168 Street - 34th Street only during rush hours
3) N's (after going into Manhattan) ran on the local tracks and continued to Ditmars on its current route
4) Q's Ran the same as the D.
Some historical notes...
The Q's and the D's ran Skip - Stop Service In Brooklyn while all other lines ran in brooklyn as the do today.
I Also Have Maps From '85, '87, '89, '90, '94, '95, '96, '97, '98, '99
and as long as they print them i'll get my hands on it
Why didn't the D/Q run express/local? How long did the skip/stop last?
I'm Not Sure But You Should Read The Line By Line Section For The Brighton Line
Is that some long title (it's in caps)?
It's a reference to the Brighton Line section on this website.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I was reffering mainly to the "I'm Not Sure But You Should Read..." part. Why is that in caps? is that part of the title?
No, it's not, it's just part of that particular poster's style. To each his own!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
from April 1986 until December 12, 1988, the same dates that the north side of the Manny B was closed. The Brighton express tracks were being repaired at the same time. However, I can remember many times when trains ran express during those years when track work demanded it.
Here's a list of which stopped where:
Parkside Ave, Cortelyou Rd, Ave. J, Ave U: Q train.
Beverly Rd, Ave H, Ave J, Neck Rd: D train.
er, i mean Ave M was served by the D, not Ave J. Oops.
Welded rail was being installed along the Brighton express tracks. I also think that the trackbed of the various roadway crossings was being rehabbed on the express tracks as well. In 1995, the local tracks were rehabbed.
--Mark
Isn't that when the express tracks were inadvertently raised by a foot or so and the whole works had to be redone? Major OOPS!
I don't think so because the express tracks are higher than the local tracks today.
It was the local tracks that were moved, most obviously at Ave. M - there is still a major gap and hight difference between the platform and the train floor now, even though they tried to adjust it my removing some of the track balast.
subfan
Actually, the service diversions began in late April of 86, not 87. Maps showing the diversions weren't printed until the N and R terminal switch was made in May of 87. Originally the diversions were going to last only 6 months, and were only included in a small box on the bottom of the map. Only 1 year later did the TA let on that these diversions would last much longer (like 2.5 years!), until December 12, 1988.
Awwwwww I Missed The Most Important One!!!!
Yes But I Can Upload So Much. What Part Do You Want And Maybe I Can Work It Out
Actually, I want the paper edition.
On all the pre-war subway cars (i.e. R1-9,BMT A/B, Low-V, LIRR MU,etc) when the trains are laid up & not being used,they would be quiet for a while then the motor would go on for a few minutes then the train would be quiet again. The R1-9's also had hissing sounds.
However the newer trains don't do this. When they are not running they are quiet as anything. What is the reasons the old trains did this and why don't the new trains.
[On all the pre-war subway cars (i.e. R1-9,BMT A/B, Low-V, LIRR MU,etc) when the trains are laid up & not being used,they would be quiet for a while then the motor would go on for a few minutes then the train would be quiet again. The R1-9's also had hissing sounds.]
Sounds to me like you're describing the noise made by the air-compressor. Traction motors make sounds; however, it is more of a whinning sound when the train is accelerating.
-Jim K.
Chicago
The R16 did this too. I can remember waiting at Queens Blvd. as a kid on R16's on the J line. They'd be totally quiet, then they'd start a slow, the quickening "whirring" sound. After a few minutes, it would stop. The R10 never seemed to make this noise.
Those are air compressor sounds. The compressor(s) would kick in when line pressure dropped below a certain point; once the line was sufficiently charged, the compressor(s) would cut out. On prewar equipment, the compressors throbbed. The R-10s had a unique compressor which throbbed somewhat faster than what was found on prewar cars; it sounded different from any other car. On later SMEE cars, the compressor was even faster and smoother sounding; i. e., less of a throb.
[ On all the pre-war subway cars (i.e. R1-9,BMT A/B, Low-V, LIRR MU,etc)
when the trains are laid up & not being used,they would be quiet for a
while then the motor would go on for a few minutes then the train
would be quiet again. The R1-9's also had hissing sounds.
However the newer trains don't do this. When they are not running they
are quiet as anything. ]
Generally, a stopped train will make several noises. The most obvious is the sound of the air compressor cycling on and off. The compressor sounds different on different car classes. The pre-war cars' compressors were typically much slower than modern compressors -- I'd guess about 3 kerthunks/sec. Modern equipment compressors run much faster, maybe 10 kerthunks/sec.
On the R1-9, the air sounds you hear were probably the sounds of the compressor governor and compressor circuit contactors running.
The compressors will always be cycling on and off to maintain main reservoir pressure. There is always some amount of leakage in the air systems, and the compressor will cycle on and off to compensate. Newer equipment will do the same thing. You may not notice it as easily, though, because of a few differences: (1) These modern cars have noisy HVAC systems blowing all the time. (2) In married pairs or other permanantely linked sets, not every car will have a compressor. Some SMEE cars also have a Motor-Generator whirring away, masking the noise (I think only the Flushing cars still have MGs, the rest have been converted to electronic systems).
If the trains you are referring to are really quiet as anything, they may be laid up and shut down, with handbrakes applied and compressors, etc, shut down. I don't think that's usually done, though.
Too bad they can't have the compressors on at the Transit Museum. Most railfans miss those noises. I rode on a couple of trolleys at Branford last week and they sounded alot like the pre-war trains. Music to the ear, especially the accelerating groans!.
The musical moaning and groaning sounds you hear during acceleration are caused by the spur-cut bull and pinion gears which were widely used on prewar running gear. The PCCs got away from that, although I'm not sure if they used hypoid gears or helical-cut bull and pinion gears the way postwar subway cars did.
Last week, on Monday the 23rd of August I was walking on the uptown platform of 23rd Street station of the 6 line. An express train was running by going uptown when all of a sudden just as the whole train passed by a eveyone heard a big bang as if a loud firecracker i.e. a blockbuster or cherry bomb had went off. I didn't see any smoke but did notice a flash of light on the track possibly along one of the rails. Everyone jumped when we heard this loud bang. But after a few seconds when we didn't see anything obviously wrong, we went about our business. In fact one lady said to the newsstand guy that she has heard those type of sounds before. Has anyone else ever heard these loud firecracker type sounds before? Can a third-rail electrical arcing cause such a loud sound as if a blockbuster or cherry bomb went off? Or could have been possible that someone dropped an actual loud fiecracker from the passing express train? Whatever happened obviously was nothing or else there would some type of problem with the trains following this event. Maybe it was nothing at all or something that goes on with out any harm. But I'm just curious as to what it could have been.
Sometimes a passing train will strike some debris with a contact shoe. If the debris is metallic & is touching ground, it will either vaporize or a contact shoe fuse will blow. In either case, you can hear such a noise. Other times when a train is accellerating and the operator goes to coast, the line breakers/switches opening under heavy load will also cause such a noise.
I've noticed other unidentifible sounds on the system. When I rode the Brighton regularly 30+ years ago I used to notice a loud sound like a huge gong audible in Prospect Park station in the portion that starts into the tunnel under Flatbush Avenue.
The sound would resonate and degrade for several seconds after the initial bang. I used to fantasize that it was the ghostly echo of the Malbone Street wreck, which occured overhead at just about that location.
Of course, it was no such thing, but I never did find out the source of the noise, not being able to associate it with any train movement or other obvious source.
Besides, the sound of the wreck probably would not have been quite so metallic, and I'm not really sure I'd like to hear what it really sounded like, even if it were possible.
SEPTA's lrvs do not have pantoraphs but instead have trolley poles why is it this odd.
The overhead in Philadelphia can not be used with pantograph pick-up. SEPTA city division cars 9000-9111 are equipped with trolley poles because their predecessors were. To adapt the overhead to support pantograph operation would be expensive.
Trolley poles vs. the pantograph. The only real disadvantage of the trolley pole is that nasty persons can pull the pole from the wire and your stuck dead. Whereas, the pantograph actions is controlled from inside the car.
The SEPTA Red Arrow division cars 100-128 are pantograph equipped.
Jim K.
Chicago
A note:
In the SEPTA Philadelphia Street and Transit map, they show a depiction of the Red Arrow LRV's as the Subway-Surface cars.
But the CTD LRV's (9000-9111) have provisions for pantographs, not that SEPTA is likely to install them anyway.
Peace,
Big D
The Red Arrow division (properly the SEPTA Suburban Division) adopted pantographs for their LRV's because operators had been hit (by crazy motorists) while changing ends in Media, and also had operators getting sprains and injuries changing poles in the dark on Sharon Hill and on cutbacks.
Since pans don't care which way the car is running, it's safer for the operators.
The City Division K cars have provision for pans but I've heard two spins (and maybe a third) on why poles are still used.
1 - Clearances in the subway tunnel
2 - Need to re-profile wire (for poles, the wire must be centered between the rails and be straight; for pans, the wire must "zig-zag" to avoid wear on the pans).
3 - Low overhead clearances at several places on the surface.
2 is a major point - every double curve cap-and-cone hanger has to be replaced, plus extenders for every cast iron double curve hanger plus replace every single cast iron curve hanger. That's lotsa bucks in hardware and man hours. It cost a bundle to retrofit Red Arrow for pans, and we both know SEPTA doesn't have the bucks. Poles are cheaper, plain and simple.
3 - May not be an issue. Case in point: The Baltimore Light Rail has a whopping 10.5 inches of wire clearance going under the Howard Street bridge on the "Rebel Yell". Speed limit: 15 MPH. Any faster and the pans will lock down.
Keep in mind the low spots on 15 (Richmond north of Lehigh) and 23 (Wayne Junction), among others. As I said, this one's a maybe, since I also think it's a non-issue, but this is what I've been told.
On a trip on Metrolink last week, I noticed a couple of odd things. One is the very low overhead in the subway (you can get the 'reverse railfan's view' from the back of the second car). Since this was originally a railroad tunnel I thought the clearances would be much more generous, but they aren't. In addition, there are pan controls in the interior car ceilings (a socket which I imagine (and hope!) a special tool is needed to operate).
I used the line to go to a Cardinals' game, which I learned is a very popular way to go to Busch Stadium - there were crowds going to the game as well as afterward, when the crush was so big that platform 'conductors' controlled the situation, allowing only so many riders onto the platforms at one time (as well as checking tickets).
Just wanted to see if anyone else noticed that there is a restaurant in Manhattan called "Stardust" that has a genuine R-22 built into the front exterior of the building. It is located at the corner of Broadway and 51st. Street (southeast corner). It is a pale red and has roll signs indicating #1 train.
Incidentally, since I was in the area, I dropped in on the Red Caboose (yeah that notorious, but well stocked hobby shop). There was really nothing new except the nickel silver R-46 cars. I think those are the ones from Image Replicas, if I'm right??
Doug aka BMTman
Hey Doug! What can one find in the Red Caboose?
Just about anything related to trains, planes and automobiles in kit or ready-to-run condition.
Obviously, their major stock is of railroad models in HO, O and N gauge. Alot of their stuff is in brass and can be quite EXPENSIVE, particularly any pre-assembled and custom painted models.
They are one of the few remaining model railroad shops with a large collection of rapid transit and subway related items. They carry -- or used to carry -- the full line of Q-Car Company epoxy-resin BMT Standards and R-4 subway car kits. Today they carry the Image Replicas IRT kits -- some built and painted, so expect to pay through the nose! They have a few individual subway cars (R-10s) made of brass from NJ International, but I suspect they are 'orphans' from unsold sets of 3 cars. One of them is painted in the blue & white scheme and two others are in the MTA silver w/blue stripe of the 70s.
Good hunting!
Doug aka BMTman
As I understand it, there was an overrun by the Korean builder on the NJ International order; these single cars are probably from that overrun. All cars in the overrun were unpowered.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
If we're talking about the same place, "Red Caboose" (23 W. 45th St., right?) was Model Railroad Equipment Corporation. This was a great place which specialized in new and used Lionel as well as being a source for great browsing.
It was run by a sharp businesswoman named Carmen Webster and carried such goodies as Bowser "O" gauge brass steam locomotives, in the $200-$500 price range (1965 dollars). They were incredibly beautifully--a wish I could have afforded even a single one back then.
Also Suydam interurbans and, of interest to me, the full line of everything Silver Leaf, from SuperQuick kits, through brass BMT standards to The Third Rail magazine. They also had Bert Sass'IRT Lo-Vs. Since these two subway models are, I believe, the oldest commercially available NYC subway cars, this would make 23 W 45 the granddaddy of subway model sellers.
BTW, I've always wondered whether Q-Car used one of those brass standards to mold their resin car body. I've counted the rivets... ;-)
Paul, sometime around 1992 - 93 The Red Caboose, which used to be on the 6th floor of a building across the street from Model Railroad somehow bought the store and relocated into the sub-basement situated shop.
Unfortunately, the salespersons of The Red Caboose are not as friendly and outgoing as the previous shop owners/salespeople. Maybe it's just me, but I get 'bad attitude' from that guy Allan (the owner?) and his 'crew' when I go there. (I also was suspect about the fact that there were always these underage boys working there -- what was that all about?)
Doug aka BMTman
Well I haven't been to The Red Caboose since they moved across the street, but I can remember the old store being like a pig sty with stuff thrown all over the place. I always said if God forbid there was ever a fire here the whole joint would go up in about 10 seconds. And yes, the sales help are a bunch of nasty arrogant SOB's. I felt bad when I heard the other place closed. These guys didn't deserve that store. Does it still look like a bomb hit it?
This is not a knock on NYC in general--I've known an awful lot of nice people (personal and business) here over 50 years--but a business with an "attitude" like that can't seem to be able to exist very long in most other places.
When a business elsewhere opens up and the owners are rude or worse, you can be almost sure they'll be closed six months later.
I wish New Yorkers weren't so accepting of bookstores that give you dirty looks if you ask a question or soup mongers that make you wait on line for an hour to buy a bowl of soup for more than a meal would cost you elsewhere.
Not one wanting to be a judge of character, but I always got the feeling like the guys running The Red Caboose were into some strange personal behavior or something. They always had -- didn't see this time -- young boys (around 9-11 yrs), that were much too young to be of working age doing chores in the store. They occassionaly would be behind the main desk even doing register work.
Whether or not those guys had strange social habits, nevertheless, they certainly were an arrogant lot. Always a snide remark or talking to customers in a condescending manner (not everyone picked this up -- or merely tolerated it).
To answer Paul: the reason why the new owners/managers of The Red Caboose can get away with their behavior is for the simple reason that they are 'the only game in town' to use an old phrase. There used to be at least a half dozen model railroad shops in Manhattan alone (Remember the excellent O gauge themed 'Madison Hardware' as a kid?). Currently, I think The Red Caboose IS THE ONLY model railroad shop left in Manhattan, so those guys will get all everyone's business. Also, The Red Caboose is the only carrier of rapid transit/subway models, so again they have cornered that particular aspect of the hobby (For good or ill, they were always the leader in stocking rapid transit supplies).
As they say, the good die young -- the bad live forever!
Doug aka BMTman
Does anyone remember Polk's? It was a hobby store near Herald Square. I recall they had a great model train section.
Yes. Polk's Hobby Supply.
It's surprising how such a large store could disappear.
I remember Polk's when they had three floors. Each one devoted to a different hobby. I visted them in later years and there were working from half of a semi finished basement in the same store. After that they went out of business altogether.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Polk's did not go out of business--the Manhattan store on Fifth Avenue closed but they are still in New Jersey, and are better known as Aristo-Craft, specializing in G Scale trains. The Aristo-Craft name was in use in the 1950s for semi-tinplate HO accessories and other equipment (operating trolley coaches, for example).
Their web site is at . Even though lots of their equipment is made in China, the quality is outstanding--I have sets of their heavyweight passenger cars, streamlined cars, locomotives, and lots of other stuff. Their courtesy and their replies to e-mails are outstanding, a very nice constrast with the foul attitudes being talked about earlier in this thread.
BTW, when the Red Caboose moved across the street from the fourth floor in the building on the south side of the street, they replaced the dealer who had succeeded Carmen Webster there years earlier. I don't remember the name, but they just shut down at the end of November several years back, as I recall--it was a bit disconcerting to find the entrance locked at the time. If I get some time, I'll go back through some older model railroad magazines and get the names.
For a few years in the late 1970s and into the early 1980s, there were three stores on 45th Street--the Red Caboose up on the fourth floor, another next door on the first floor, and the Model RR Equipment Co. successor down in the basement on the north side of the street.
Currently, there is a Lionel dealer on 14th Street, in a second-floor walkup over a bicycle shop, who had a reasonable assortment of Lionel a few years back but not much of other manufacturers.
Anybody remember Hobby Mart on Park Row in the 1950s? Or the hobby shop in the Port Authority Bus Terminal (mostly Maerklin)?
The current model railroad magazines list a number of hobby dealers in other boroughs--Train World in Brooklyn (downstairs at Ditmas Avenue station) is my favorite--easy to get to from midtown and extremely well stocked in many scales.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
TrainWorld has a sister store on Long Island in the town of Lynbrook (on Sunrise Highway about three blocks east of the LIRR Long Beach branch split from the Babylon branch).
They are even bigger than the Brooklyn store and from what I heard do a brisk business from mail/phone orders.
Another establishment that was a casualty of the computer age was Walt's Hobby Shop of Bay Ridge. They had an awesome display of military figures with acompanying landscapes. Walt's specialized in miniature infantry divisions -- everything from the American Revolution and the Civil War to WWII and Vietnam -- quite impressive. Of course they also had model railroad equipment and an assortment of radio-controlled vehicles, but they seemed to cater to the discriminating military collector.
Doug aka BMTman
I can remember when the old FAO Schwarz, in what is now the Bergdorff's for Men store, had 2 Maerklin layouts, which were somewhat elaborate.
My first train set, of which I stll have the loco and coaches, I got as a 5 year old from FAO. It was $39.99 and I thought it was the greatest thing in the world.
I believe the third store was called the "Roundhouse." I think they had three stores at one time. I did manage to get several very nice Lionel freight cars there when they were still open.
Larry,RedbirdR33
I think you're right about the Roundhouse name. I bought my HO brass WP Car BMT Standards there, my WP Car BU el cars (one set with poles, one without), and my NJ International R-1 set. I think my brass Brooklyn PCC (also a WP Car item) came from there, too. They would even send notices of new arrivals they thought you'd be interested in, with prices handwritten on the flyers. Great loss, because even though the folks in the place where Carmen Webster's store was, those in the half-flight walk-up were among the best I've seen anywhere.
One odd thing I remember about Carmen Webster's--hers was the first (and I think for many years the only) hobby shop to take credit cards
--as I recall, she took Diners Club way back when.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
The Roundhouse wasn't there for very long I think. They had another store that was located in the former station house at the Croton North Station on the Hudson Line. They did have some good buys on trains.
I first learned about the MERC in 1966 and it was always a nice place to stop by for a vist. When I worked in midtown you could always spend some time there on a lunch break and pick up the current railroad magazines. Try doing that now with the Red Caboose crew.
The old Madison Hardware was I believe run by two men one of whom was married to a daughter of Joshua Lionel Cowen. I think the two fellows finally retired. The store was a great source of Lionel parts.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Yeah, and I also remember Madison Hardware as a BIG outlet for those neat Corgi Toy miniatures (Try finding some originals of those -- they go at auctions for mega-bucks!). Most of those were compatable with O gauge, so it was a natural product line for them to stock.
Doug aka BMTman
Doug; I was amazed to find out how many people dislike the Red Caboose. I used to work in GCT and my boss (a railfan) and myself developed an active dislike to the place. Once the TA Store openned in GCT and the other one over on Broadway in the movie theater it was possible to pick up the subway calender and other subway books without dealing with the Red Caboose crew. Considering how opinions frequently vary on this website its surprising how many of us are in agreement on this one.
Larry,RedbirdR33
A few year back, I went into the Red Caboose to buy some track and other odds and ends for my HO layout.
They wanted twice what I would pay for the same at Willis Hobbies in Mineola. While I questioned the high price, I noticed a cat on the counter eating the proprietor's hamburger. He saw it as well, but it didn't stop him from picking that same burger up and swallowing it whole as I walked out in disgust.
Typical Red Caboose activity. Except for there great supply, the place would be a hell-hole.
I went there many time at Red Caboose but i go there like three or four time a year. The place is a mess & i couldn't find what i want. Well i haven't been in Reb Caboose since March & the owner have no respect with other people
Peace Out
Meaney
Regarding the below, the name of the place was - "The Train Shop."
I spent alot of $$ there and remember them (behind the counter) bickering with each other quite a bit. They were a good and fair shop. But I think their dislike for each other eventually ruined their business.
>BTW, when the Red Caboose moved across the street from the fourth >floor in the building on the south side of the street,
>they replaced the dealer who had succeeded Carmen Webster there years >earlier. I don't remember the name, but they
>just shut down at the end of November several years back, as I >recall--it was a bit disconcerting to find the entrance
>locked at the time
Ya know, now that you mention it I do recall some "bad blood" between some of the guys at The Train Shop. I think there was some kind of "segregation" (self-imposed?) or at least departmentization in that place toward it's last years. I am sure alot of the animosity had to do with the spliting of the store into 3 distinct sections. By the doorway was the main "train shop" with all of the HO and N gauge equipment (alot in brass and rapid transit related). The second section was off to the right of the doorway and was re-furbished and dubbed "The Plane Shop" specializing in those pre-built/painted resin aircraft models that tend to adorn the desks of airline officals (I admit to having one!). That area of the shop even sported it's own business card! The third part of the shop was the left far end that went into the back room/repair shop area that was almost totally O gauge/Lionel/American Flyer related (aka 'Toy trains').
All of that was sometime in the early 90s if I recall correctly. I am sure something other than finances was behind the closing of The Train Shop since those guys had a great location and always had customers happily parting with their cash, as I recall.
Doug aka BMTman
There was a train store in Aurora, CO back in the early 80s called The Train Shop. A fellow from New York managed it for a time; he was a subway buff and was into Lionel. His license plates said, TRAINS. There was a sign by a shelf, "Please do not destroy the integrity of these items", which reflected his sense of humor, along with your typical "You BEND it, you BUY it" warning by the flexible track rack.
You remember it well. In fact, I am quite sure I spent the better part of $5,000 on various HO equipment at the "Train Shop" over a 10 or so year period that I worked in Manhattan.
One particular guy named Russ seemed to be quite knowledgeable about layout design. One other guy seemed to do quite a bit of air brushing for them.
Any and all repair work was done well - but with a long wait for it's return.
I remember spending $400 in that shop for an Overland Alco C420 brass piece. After 4 months of waiting for them to paint it up as LIRR #217, I got fed up and took it out to Willis hobbies in Mineola where I dropped it off on a Wednesday and had it back on a Saturday.
I think there was alot of animosity and disrespect between the folks in that shop and it delayed sales and repairs. I was sorry to go elsewhere with my business but they drove me to it.
I remember Polk's very well. Apart from the trains and stuff, it is where I went for software and support for my first computer, an Ohio Scientific C1P (8K RAM, cassette interface, bought in 1979). I joined the users' group that met there once a month.
After we had met there for several years, the store suddenly shrunk to a fraction of its size, then it was gone altogether. Meetings were moved to a computer store on 23rd St., where I had a job for a while.
Polk's went through a number of financial problems during the time they were developing the AristoCraft line of G scale products. Back when I was actively involved in the hobby business we had quite a time with them, both with poor quality and failure to ship what we had paid for. But, to their credit, they eventually came through with everything, even if it did take them a couple of years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
What is the story with this "Professor" guy over there? He always wears the riding boots, used to smoke a pipe, I think.
Isn't that the black guy with the attitude -- kind of like the second-in-command in the store?
Doug aka BMTman
That would be the one.
And he wears a Nazi uniform.
It seems as if this thread has been discussed before, but I'll take yet another opportunity to condemn the folks at The Red Caboose. When one considers the caliber of model store that the current tenant replaced (Carmen Webster's famous Model Railroad Equipment Corp.) it is truly sad that the low-life bottom feeders that are the Red Caboose continue to thrive in this location. My advice is always to avoid these people like the plague! If you want Images Replicas models, deal directly with Jack LaRussa of NJ International or Joel Lovitch of MTS Imports, who handles IR products. Joel also imports brass models of NYCTA equipment of the highest quality. Both have web sites to access. For brass models, see Armand Mazzetti's The Caboose in Wolcott, CT. He advertises in Model Railroader and other model publications. All of these people will be a pleasure to do business with. There is nothing out there that they don't have or know of, so you don't have to waste your time with the low-life scum at the Red Caboose! If you must enter that "little shop of horrors", beware of expensive brass models painted in incorrect colors or paint schemes, shoddy built IR models that are being offered at inflated prices etc. Remember that custom painted models (particularly brass) that are correctly done, ie: from a reputable custom painter or factory painted, will add to the the value of the piece. But nothing lowers the value of the piece faster than an incorrectly painted model. Let the buyer beware!!!
Are there any other hobby shops in New York besides The Red Cabbose? Perhaps in the outer buroughs.
There was one at Avenue M and East 15th Street, Brooklyn. I've bought some things there in the past - don't know if it's still in existence.
Trainland in Lynbrook, Nassau County, is also worth checking out.
Wayne
Hey Wayne, I remember that model railroad shop! They were so into railroading that their store was either directly under or adjacent to the Brighton line station at Avenue M. I even recall a big billboard of theirs on the Brighton Line at either Avenue M or Kings Highway.
Funny, but I just can't recall the name of the place....maybe some ol' Brooklynites might lend a hand here??
Doug aka BMTman
Doug: The shop under Ave M stop was the old site of Trainworld which is now in much larger quarters on McDonald Ave in Brooklyn.
The store was Trainworld. They are now at 751 McDonald Ave. Right under the Ditmas Ave. station of the Culver (F) line.
E.15 and M. Right by my alma mater. Geez, I never knew one was there...
3TM
Saratoga Av. Transfer availble to the B7 lower level, rear of the platform. The next station will Sutter-Rutland Rd. Transfer available to the B12, B15, and the B78 to Kings Plaza. Stand clear of the clossing doors........
There's quite a few; check out the back of a recent Model Railroader. Many are in Brooklyn. There's an America Hobby Center or some such on (uh...) 18th? 19th? bet. 6th & 7th. (also a branch of this in North Bergen NJ). They seem to be phasing out their model railroad stuff so I scratched them off my list (no new items mentioned in recent ads and the MR ad went from multiple pages to 1 page).
Frank,
Don't hold back, say what you really think about the people at Red Caboose! BTW I couldn't agree with you more. Alan seems to know he's the only game in town now, and since NYC is the business Mecca of the USA if not the world, all he has to do is hold out long enough and some businessman with money to burn and no patience will pay his price!
Mike H
There are some other model RR places in the city. There's American Hobby Center (AHC) on 22nd st or so, a block or so west of 5th Ave (check yellow pages for exact address -- it's on the 2nd floor, but has a big sign. They also advertise in the model RR mags). Reasonable size place, but don't seem to carry any NYC area equipment at all. Silly..
Also, on 14th and 8th or so is a Lionel O guage place, which I part of a set of commonly owned stores (also a bicycle and hardware place). It's on the north side of the street.
The Red Caboose has lots of neat stuff, but they're highway robbers, and you could stand still for an hour waiting to speak to someone, and then when you finally jump up and down to get their attention, they'll give you the shortest answer they think will make you just get out of their face.
Maybe rude people are the only ones willing to put up with the costs of doing business in NYC.
There's a few other stores in the area. After being to a bunch of them, I think I decided that I liked Willis Hobbies the best. It's also the closest to me, but the last one I went to last time I had enough time to even think about modeling.
Doug; You echo my feelings on this . The MREC was known in later years as the Train Shop Ltd. They were a great bunch of fellows always ready to help out with questions. They went out of business unfortunately and the Red Caboose moved over to there quarters. The place is not as friendly as it used to be. You can still pick up rapid transit videos and operating models there but somehow you don't really feel welcomed there.
Larry,RedbirdR33
Doug,
Sorry to break this to you but it is not a real R22.
When Ellen Hart Sturm (a former Miss Subways) bid for an old R22 at one of the last auctions that the TA had, she could not claim the car because the TA "lost" it. As a result what you see is a replica bult to reasonable specifications.
For those who have not yet seen it - go to 1650 Broadway at 51st St.
The decore is basciaclly 1950's (with subway, of course), the food similiar but the prices are definetly 1990's. There is entertainment there nightly. A good visit for anyone.
Word of advice - get there early - it gets crowded.
When Ellen Hart Sturm (a former Miss Subways) bid for an old R22 at one of the last auctions that the TA had, she could not claim the car because the TA "lost" it. As a result what you see is a replica bult to reasonable specifications.
I was at the last transit museum auction and tag sale. A GM "new look" bus went for $750, but the R-22 (painted in work train colors) had an opening price of $3,000. There weren't any takers.
Was the auction you refer to a different auction?
--Mark
It was the one before that one. As I remember, the purchase even made the Daily News the next day.
I've now ridden through every station in the subways except for the two at the north end of the #3, and the ten stations in Brooklyn at the other end of the #3.
Has anyone 'done' the entire subway? What stations have you missed?
And, who has 'done' the entire MTA--subway, LIRR, Metro North? (Ah, every bus line's too much to ask, there're dozens.)
www.forgotten-ny.com
I've done the entire subway, including some portions that don't exist any more, and the entire territory now served by Metro North (although much of that was done when the cars still said New York Central and New Haven - except for the Hudson Division I haven't ridden the Metro North territory in thirty years). I've also ridden most of NJT and some of the LIRR. I've also ridden the entire Chicago 'L' as it existed in 1978, the South Shore at that same time, and the old North Shore all the way to Milwaukee on an Electrolinerwhen they were in service.
There aresome advantages to being nearly as old as Methuselah!
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
I've covered the entire system. I've also ridden every Bronx bus route.
Wayne
Like many others, I've covered the entire current subway system, plus Third Avenue (City Hall to Gun Hill, but not Chatham Square to South Ferry), Myrtle Avenue (Bridge-Jay to Metropolitan), Fulton from Eastern Parkway and Rockaway Avenue to Lefferts (and the 14th Street-Fulton Street), the Ninth Avenue remnant from 15th Street to 167th Street, Culver from 36th Street to Coney Island. (I'm not including services no longer operated like the Broadway Thru Express or the Flushing Super Express.) I've done a fair amount of commuter riding, but I don't think of those routes as real transit.
A question that sometimes comes up with this subject is whether it's necessary to put a foot on every platform or if riding past on an express counts. I know I've been on a train stopping at every station as listed above, but I also don't think I ever put my foot on Nostrand or Tompkins Avenue stations on the Myrtle L, for example, but I rode the line many times, with gate cars and with Qs.
I also rode a fair number of Brooklyn trolley and trolley-coach routes, but (as with old L and El lines) age was against me--not born or too young to have ridden some routes. And I don't think the question was about surface riding.
There are lots of other cities where I've ridden all the rail, but the question was about New York. (Summer of 2000 is probably going to be very busy for me as I try to catch up on all the new West Coast extensions opened in the last three years. I hope the ERA goes west next year.)
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Sorry about the typo in my comment about the Polo Grounds Shuttle--even with previewing, I missed the misnumbering of 155th Street (I left out a '5').
To the list, I could also add the Dyre Avenue shuttle going into the old NYW&B station before the line was connected to the White Plains Road line.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Where would you have them go? A convention in Los Angeles/San Diego would be very interesting to me, but I can't see going out west for any other city at this point. I'd go to one in Boston, Chicago, Montreal, or Toronto though...
-Dave
I'd like a Portland/Seattle/Vancouver combination. Considering that the ERA went to Dallas, which only has DART, McKinney, and Trinity, I don't think the Pacific Northwest (Southwest north of the border) would be unrealistic.
I'd probably do a drop down the coast after a NW convention to catch up on all the extensions. Another San Francisco convention would be o.k. with me, too--though trying to get everything in (north and south) during one trip could be a bit difficult. But arrival in Vancouver, then Seattle and Portland, then Daylight to SF, with post-convention trips to Sacramento, San Jose, Los Angeles, and San Diego could work. (My cousin in LA likes me to visit, so that helps with LA and San Diego.)
Who does make the ERA convention decisions? I don't ever recall anyone asking about members' preferences. In CERA, I took part in one straw vote at a meeting during their 60th anniversary celebration, but later it was decided not to have another CERA trip for the foreseeable future.
BTW, I left Jamaica Avenue to 168th Street out of my auto--no, make that 'subway--biographical' list.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
"Where would you have them go? A convention in Los Angeles/San Diego would be very interesting to me, but I can't see going out west for any other city at this point."
Portland -- the MAX light rail system, including the Westside Extension and the deepest subway station in the US (IIRC).
Seattle -- Metro Bus Tunnel, Waterfront Streetcar line, the Sounder commuter rail if it's open.
Vancouver -- Skytrain and the West Coast Express commuter rail.
San Francisco -- ACE commuter rail and the BART airport extension (is it open yet?)
Sounds like there's plenty new to see on the West Coast.
> ACE commuter rail / West Coast Express
Not electric-- the ERA wouldn't touch those. The Seattle Sounder probably isn't electric either. The Seattle bus tunnel (which is electric I think) isn't a railroad so probably wouldn't be a factor in an ERA decision. Plus, the ERA conventions tend to center on "traction" rather than heavy rail commuter systems.
> BART airport extension (is it open yet?)
Hell no. The SFO area looks like a war zone and has since at least '96. Funny though, the last ERA convention in SF (1996) did not do *anything* relating to BART. I don't know whether it was a matter of time or that BART is uncooperative in such matters.
The more I think about it, I may just do a West Coast trip during 2000 whether ERA goes there or not.
DAvid, don't forget the Seattle Waterfront trolley (Australian cars), Route 99, if memory serves; it's been extended a bit south since I rode it (along with the monorail) back in 1983. I've yet to ride either Vancouver or Portland, so admit being a bit prejudiced in my suggestions.
New in the last three years (since I was last on the West Coast), San Francisco has the East Bay BART extension; MUNI has the Metro extension to the SP ('Joint Powers')Depot and will have the Embarcadero line; Sacramento (a nice day-ride from SF) has the south extension; San Jose has an extension at Great America.
Further south, LA's Red Line has been extended twice in the last three years and the San Diego Trolley is running further north and east.
There's lots of new electric operation on the West Coast--another reason it's so disappointing to see what has not happened in New York since the City lost control of the subways.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
I've done 'em all, although there are places I haven't been through in over a decade.
I've made it my mission to ride the entire subway before the end of the millenium(that's the end of NEXT year). I haven't done these lines yet(short list):
Queens Blvd
Flushing line past 33rd/Rawson
White Plains line above E. 180th
Rockaway line or Fulton Subway past Hoyt-Schermerhorn
Any southern division BMT
Concourse line
Bronx IRT
8th Avenue above 125th
So, I've got a lot of subway riding to do in 16 months. Wish me luck.
It's not a lot, I had more than that, did it all after school in July.
Oh wait, I actually read your list, it IS more, but not so much more. Definitely not 16 months more.
No it's not a lot, but it all matters what I'm able to do when I'm up there. When I usually go I'm with someone(class, friends, family) etc.
On my next trip(October?) I plan to do the Rockaways and the southern division BMT. I want to finish the entire BMT by the end of the year(but I probably won't if the Franklin shuttle isn't finished).
I've been through 164 stations on every Manhattan line, one in the Bronx, two in Brooklyn and two in Queens. It may not count, but I'm going to try the SIR also(and the ferry is free, right?)
I've been everywhere but 145 and 148 and Lenox. I also rode the Culver shuttle (including the last day of service), and the Jamaica el to 168th St. Most of this was in the '70s since I haven't lived in NYC in many years. I can also legitimately claim to have walked the 63rd St. subway in 1978, when it was not much more than a dark dirt tunnel, but that's another story.
I guess its my turn. I probably rode on every line but that wasn't what the question asked. My big void is the Bronx!! I'll go borough by borough:
Bklyn-everything but:New lotts line betw Junius and New Lotts4th Av "R" below where the Sea Beach turns offMyrtle Av "M" north of the "L" transfer point to Metropolitan. Yeah, I know thats partly Queens. (I rode the old el south of Bway, Q-cars and even have a cane seat I stole borrowed on its last day)"L" south of Livonia to Rockaway Pkway.The part of the "G" where it runs alone.(also in Queens) I even rode the Culver Shuttle.
Queens-everything but:The parts of the "G" & "L" mentioned under Bklyn.63rd St tunnel & Roosevelt Island "N" north of 39-Bebee New Archer line east of Sutphin LIRRLefferts Blvd line east of where the Rockaway line cuts off
Manhattan-all except:"A" & "C" north of where "D" cuts off to Bronx. 7Av/Bway IRT in upper Manhattan-not sure exactly note: I rode the 'ol Bowling Green/South Ferry Shuttle many times
The Bronx-I have to do this in reverse-putting down the lines I have rode: "D" to Bedford Pk Blvd (& changed for old bus to Yonkers Raceway!)Woodlawn to end (also for same bus!!)White Plains Road line up to where the 3rd Av el terminated. Bronx part of third Av el
Well I think thats it. If PATH counts I've taken all the routes in Manhattan.
To the list above I must add that I have not ridden the 63rd Street tunnel between Roosevelt Island and Queensbridge. Perhaps I'll complete that leg in a couple of years when they open the connector.
By the way, anyone know if the Roosevelt Is Tramway is still operating. I never went on it!!!
It still is, I did it recently. The thing still accepts tokens only (no MC!) and their token machines (now, the only ones still existence) still say this on the outside: $5.00=4 tokens+40 cents etc. Basically, they never updated the machines' signage from the $1.15 fare, even though it sells tokens for $1.50.
And what a ride! I admit to being somewhat fainthearted about riding that high above anything, especially hung by such a slender cable, but I rode the round trip earlier this year for the first (and last) time. I'm glad I did it, but I'll not do it again.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Well, let's see. Of the portions which no longer exist, the only one I ever DID ride on was the Jamaica line out to 168th St.
There are plenty of stations I've never been through. On the IND, the only stretch is the Rockaway Park branch from Broad Channel. On the BMT, the Canarsie between Broadway Junction and Rockaway Parkway; the M between Broadway and Metropolitan Ave; the R between 59th St. and 95th St.; and the Astoria line. On the IRT, it's pretty extensive. Basically, there are only two terminals I've ever been to; four if you include Brooklyn Bridge and Bowling Green: Times Square on the 7 and South Ferry. Well, five if you include Grand Central on the shuttle. I've never gone beyond Atlantic Ave. in Brooklyn; E. 180th St. in the Bronx; 168th St. on the 1; 161st St. on the 4, and I've never been on the Pelham line, nor the Lenox branch past 135th St. While I have taken the 7 to Shea Stadium more than once, I've never been to Main St.
One qualification: I've never been on the South Ferry inner loop, only the outer one.
I've never ridden from 145th to 207th on the "A".
Nor have I ridden from Rockaway Blvd. to Lefferts on the "A".
Never did any part of the GG south/west of Queens Plaza.
And on the BMT, never rode the "L" east of 1st Avenue to Broadway Junction, nor did I ever sample the Myrtle El when it was open west
of Broadway. The only other stretch of the BMT I never did was the "R" from 59th Street to Fort Hamilton/95th.
I covered the entire IRT, and PATH.
LIRR....have never ridden east of Brentwood on the Mainline, never ventured past Northport on the Port Jeff line, and never went east of Shea Stadium on the Port Washington Line. Rode everything else, and in the diesel loco cabs at that! My next-door neightbor was an engineer, and I used to ride the engines with him; sometimes he was doing freight duty, so I got to go to Far Rockaway and West Hempstead on work trains.
On the LIRR I have yet to ride the Hempstead and Montauk Branches east of Nassau County. Since much of the Montauk is replaced by buses at present, now isn't the time to do it anyway. I'd like eventually to do all the passenger trackage in the system. The leg between Hunterspoint and LIC will be tricky to schedule. I have managed the LIC-Jamaica run on three occasions. Won't be the same on that branch with the bilevels though.
Much of Metro North is a mystery to me, though I've done New Haven to the end of the line, the Harlem as far as Katonah and the Hudson as far as Riverdale so I have some making up to do there.
I've done the SIRT repeatedly.
Talking about Metro North-I would love to take it to New Haven using Branford as my excuse. Their website says you have to take a bus to the museum from New Haven. Anyone try it?? Has to be better than I-95 and forget the Port Jeff Ferry, you need advanced reservations. I like spur-of-the-moment trips.
The Transit Museum had a trip to the Shoreline Trolley Museum in Branford last October, and even though it rained (always seems to rain when the TM schedules one of these trips) it's well worth the $30 cost. I believe the TM will be putting out their fall schedule soon. Members get first crack at the tours, but you might be able to squeeze in. See what their website says (I forget the address offhand)
Is there a reason that you havent taken a trip on the 3 line???????
3TM
Van Siclen, The next stop is Pennsylvania Ave. Transfer available to the B20 and 83 lower level stand clear of the closing doors....
>>>>Is there a reason that you havent taken a trip on the 3 line??????? <<<
I've never had reason to go to either terminus, so one of these weekdays I'll schedule a run...
Oh, Ok then. Have fun railfanning.........
3TM
Junius St, transfer available to the L lower level, rear of the platform. The next stop will be Rockaway. Transfer available to the B60 lower level. Stand clear of the closing doors
A,B,C,D,E,F trains, this is the West Fourth Street stop. You can transfer to those trains, but next time wont you ride the Q.
Hmmm...lets see...
1) Brooklyn IRT past Atlantic Ave
2) The G between Queens Plaza and Hoyt
3) The D past Bedford Park
4) BMT 4th Ave past 59th St
5) The E connector to Archer Ave
6) The 6 past 125th St
7) Ditmars on the Astoria
8) The 3 past 125th
9) I BELIEVE the Nassau loop from Broad to Lawrence in Brooklyn
10)[maybe] dont remember if I ever went thru the inner South Ferry station or not....
(notice how few people have been to Lenox Terminal?)
I used to cut out of high school (on staten island), and come to the city to ride the subway.
i haven't been to:
1. 3 train between utica and new lots
2. 4 and D trains north of bedford park blvd.
Well you'd figure I'd have covered everything by now, but I haven't covered:
A north of 190th/Fort Tryon Park (2 stops)
M the short section from the tunnel to Fulton St. (1 stop)
63rd St line between 57th St. and Queensbridge (2 stops)
N/R between Lex and Queensborough Plaza/Queens Plaza (0 stops missed)
F between Broadway-Lafayette and Jay (4 stops)
R between 59th St. & 95th St. (4 stops)
2/5 between Franklin & Flatbush (7 stops)
F between Union Tpk and 179th St (5 stops)
A between Rockway Blvd and Lefferts (3 stops)
Wow, 28 stops missed, that's more than I had originally thought.... :-(
-Dave
Has anyone made it out to Lefferts?
If you're referring to the A terminus at Liberty Ave., then I have, yes.
I have, funny story too. I was going to ride the A from Rockaway Boulevard to Lefferts Boulevard, the J from Eastern Parkway to Sutphin Boulevard and the S from Broad Channel to Rockaway Park. I took the L from Sixth Avenue (picked up 2/3 from Chambers) so I could ride the upper level at Wilson (I never did the L eastbound until then). Then I got the RFW on the J out to Sutphin and reversed across the platform to get the train one stop back to 121. I stopped to eat before taking the Q10, but somehow I lost my sense of direction and took the Kew Gardens bound bus. I had to buy a token at Union TPK, but it didn't matter because I used the transfer from the Q10 on the B100 which I would have to pay for later anyway. It doesn't end there! I got the RFW on the A from Lefferts to Rockaway and crossed over to the other side and walked to the front of the train, I boarded the next one. The idiot that I am, I ended up on 104-Oxford waiting what seemed like FOREVER to go back to Rockaway where I had to walk the length of TWO PLATFORMS!!! Then I waited forever again making me angrier especially as an out service train passed and an R-44 (blast) showed up. There were 2 people in the cab so I couldn't look out. Finally I got the PRFW (Pseudo Railfan Window) on the S. Then I took the Q35 (paid with transfer ticket from Q10) and B100 (transferred from Lefferts with Metrocard) home. If you've actually read this far, I have more stories from 656 Miles Ride-It-All 1999. If the Willy-B is reopened tomorrow, I'll BE THERE, I'll get on the M at Chambers for the RFW.
Four times: First time October 18, 1969; last time May 15, 1999, aboard an R32 #3767. Typical dual contracts stations, just like the Jamaica Avenue ones.
Wayne
Been there years ago... Have to include as part of my "Day in the Rockaways railfan trip"........
3TM
Kingston Av. Transfer available to the B43 to Greenpoint on the upper level. The next station will be Nostrand. Transfer available to the B44 to Sheepshead Bay. Stand clear of the closing doors.......
I rode to Lefferts on the Fulton L (Type Cs), on the 14th Street-Fulton Street (Multi-Sections), on the A (R-10s), but never on a rush-hour E.
Haven't been there since the 1960s, though.
Ed Alfonsin
Potsdam NY
Yeah...actually took the A out there to catch the Q-10 to JFK once..(WAY before JFK Express time)
Well, I have basically covered each and every current NYCTA subway route that I could have possibly done in my lifetime (I will be 41 years old this upcoming Saturday, October 16, 1999). As for those no longer in existence, I never rode the Culver Shuttle between 9th Avenue and Ditmas Avenue (closed in 1975) and the Myrtle Avenue Elevated between Broadway [Brooklyn] and Bridge-Jay Street (closed in 1969).
Needless to say, I had rode all the R Types ever built (R-1 to R-110B), including soon-to-be museum car R-7A #1575 (once on a rush hour "BB" train in 1964 and one trip each on the "K" and "LL" lines during the summer of 1974). As to the pre-IND equipment, I can only remember riding the Lo-V/World's Fair cars on the Third Avenue (Bronx) line only once, the BMT AB Standards on the 14th Street Line between 8th Avenue and Union Square several times, and just one trip on the D-Type (Triplex) on a BMT Broadway Line train from Astoria in 1964 (I don't recall if it was a West End or Brighton run).
You could say that most of my "subway-biography" lifetime (until June 1998) was spent riding the routes based from my former home in upper Washington Heights near Fort Tyron Park (IND "A" and IRT #1).
-William
The only car types that I haven't ridden that were in existence during my lifetime (August 19, 1954) are:
C-Type
MS (they should have saved ONE SET of these!)
Blue Bird
Hi-V (weren't some of these in existence in 1954?)
R130 (R110A)
I've been on the following rarely:
* "D" type twice - once in 1964, once in 1998.
* BMT Standards four times since 1964: 1964, 1966, 1968, 1969; several times before 1964 on the Brighton, don't remember the dates (too young)
* R-1 three or four times from 1969 to 1971 (too many times to count on the R-4, R-6, R-7 and R-9)
* R-11 twice, both on the Franklin "SS": 1969 and 1971
* WF Steinway Lo-V once, in 1969
I was on a number of regular IRT Lo-V's as a young child in Brooklyn.
Wayne
In terms of equipment, my rare experiences include:
R-16s - twice, once on a 15 over the Williamsburg Bridge on Sept. 23, 1967 and once on an M from Fulton to Canal Sts. in October of 1986.
R-17s - once or twice, the last time in October of 1984 on a mixed-bag #6.
R-12/14s - a few occasions in the 1978-80 period on the West Side IRT.
R-110As - once, on the 2.
Equipment I never rode on:
None of the prewar IRT rolling stock.
Wooden elevated cars of any kind.
Triplexes, much to my regret.
None of the BMT oddballs or multis, all of which were gone by the time I arrived on the subway scene.
R-11s and R-15s.
R-110Bs.
You guys all make me feel young :-) I rode an R10 once on the A or C around 1986 or 1987, and R27/R30 cars a couple of times in the late 80's early 90's, but that's it for cars now retired!
Yeah, I just turned XLV in August, much to my consternation. I'm starting to feel pretty old too - the legs aint' what they used to be.
I guess I need more exercise.
Wayne
You should see me at the office. When I get moving, it's like being on an A train of R-10s at 81st St. Or an N of R-32s zipping along the Broadway express tracks. I used to say, "5:02 express to Hew Haven", now it's "A express to 207th St., next stop will be 125th St."
I'll be 43 in two months.
Brooklyn train, Brooklyn train. This is an LL train to Brooklyn. (This was an actual announcement on a train of R-42s in 1969 as it wrong railed between 8th Ave. and 3rd Ave. on the 8th Ave.-bound track.)
How about when the conductors on the #7 just used to announce the street NAMES (as opposed to numbers..) i.e. "next stop is Lowery.." "Bliss St..Bliss".."Broadway change to the IND.." I wonder when it became OFFICIAL policy to announce "74th st" "82nd st" etc... Its nice to see on the new signs that NYCT allowed the old names to remain..even tho how long has it been since theres BEEN a Bliss St???
Oh, probably not since the last time it was in a state of bliss.
RIM SHOT!!
Four stations on the Liberty Avenue IND elevated have retained both their newer numbers and the old names - 80th-Hudson, 88th-Boyd, 104th-Oxford and 111th-Greenwood. Somewhere I have a dim memory of Rockaway Boulevard also carrying 96th Street on the map or sign.
In addition, Beach 44th, Beach 60th, Beach 67th and Beach 90th Street
street stations carry their old names as well; and also on the Astoria Line there are some.
Wayne
Wayne: The 1961 Edition of the Subway Map lists "96 St-Rockaway Blvd" and 119 St-Lefferts". I don't know if the stations themselves ever carried these signs.
Larry,RedbirdR33
How about Van Sicklen (Neptune) on the "F"? I've been looking for a Van Sicklen in that area for 35 years!!
Actually, I think that sort of stood for a locality rather than an actual street name. Van Sicklen is no longer so - it's Neptune Avenue. Don't know when the name was changed. AFAIK that's one of the few stations to have its name actually changed. Morrison-Sound View Avenue in the Bronx is another; we all know about Malbone Street/Prospect Park.
My Mom has a VERY VERY OLD (1921) Brooklyn Street guide that was passed down from my Grandmother. Next time I speak to her I'll ask her to look that one up, not confusing it with the existing Van Siclen (without the "k") Avenue. That guide is SO OLD, it lists the "Road To Lott's House" in Canarsie. Try finding THAT one!
Wayne
>>>My Mom has a VERY VERY OLD (1921) Brooklyn Street guide that was passed down from my
Grandmother. Next time I speak to her I'll ask her to look that one up, not confusing it with the
existing Van Siclen (without the "k") Avenue. That guide is SO OLD, it lists the "Road To Lott's
House" in Canarsie. Try finding THAT one! <<<
The Road To Lott's House is presently Church Lane, which runs along Canarsie Cemetery.
Canarsie still has a lot of its aboriginal lanes intact, though it's losing them bit by bit all the time. See more of them on...
http://www.forgotten-ny.com/Alleys/Canarsie%20lanes/canarsie.html
Swell! Great stuff there, Kevin! I just got a 1998 Hagstrom for my birthday and sure enough, squeezed in between E.85th Street and E.86th Street, running north from Avenue "J" is that piece of Varken's Hook Road, still showing. Yes, Church Lane (a.k.a. The Road To Lott's House) is on the map. Now come the $64 questions:
a) Where is/was Varken's Hook?
b) Where was Lott's House???
Wayne
>>>How about Van Sicklen (Neptune) on the "F"? I've been looking for a Van Sicklen in that area for 35
years!!<<<
If you had been here abt 100 years ago, you may have seen the Van Siclen Hotel. The stop on that railroad, which is now an elevated train stop, was for that hotel.
www.forgotten-ny.com
Van Sicklen Street runs parallel to McDonald Avenue, two blocks west, from 86th Street to Kings Highway, not really anywhere near the current Neptune Avenue station.
Wayne
The Van Siclen station was never named for a street or road named Van Siclen, but for a hotel that used to be at the site (see previous post)
I've ridden everything built from the R16 to R110A and B, and the R10. If sitting on one in the TA museum counts, then I've ridden the R1, R7, R9, R11 and the BMT Q car.
This is subject to interpretation, but to me, "riding" means being on a moving vehicle regardless of whether one is standing or sitting. One concession: railfan trips count; however, I'd be inclined to indicate such a trip if I never rode on a particular unit such as a Triplex in revenue service.
BTW, IND #100 is an R-1; 484 is an R-4. 1575, the R-10 prototype, is an R-7A.
Dave, since you (as our illustrious webmaster) are supposed to set an example for everyone else out here, perhaps you ought to orchestrate another memorable marathon ride - all the stations, all the lines? Plan far enough in advance and I'm sure there are a couple of hardy souls who will join you for the whole shebang and a bunch more of us who will join you part of the way.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse
Some other people were trying to plan such a thing (a one-day all stations ride) a while back. Don't think they ever did the trip but I don't recall for sure. I personally have no interest in trying to do the whole system in one day. :-)
-Dave
Well, you don't have to do EVERYTHING in one day - do it piecemeal. Some of these (i.e. the "F" from Broadway-Lafayette to Jay) aren't too far from your home station. That stretch is pretty neat. All stations have unique features - weird mezzanines (East Broadway), second-system cutouts (2nd Ave, East Broadway), strange architectural features (York Street) and a dim transfer area (Delancey Street). All tile bands are of the Lilac Purple family, with contrasting borders.
Wayne
I thought he was suggesting that I coordinate a "whole system in a day" tour, not just "the pieces I missed in a day tour".
-Dave
Nah, that's too much to do in one sitting. Maybe two or three pieces but the whole thing? That'd be a marathon.
BTW, welcome back. Sorry to hear about your unfortunate incident in the Netherlands, but the bottom line is you are safe and well and that's what counts. Credit cards are easily replaced. Would carrying travellers cheques have helped?
Wayne
> Would carrying travellers cheques have helped?
Probably, if they were American Express; still, checking into hotels they usually want a credit card for guarantee. For cash I tend to just rely on using my MAC card to get cash when I need it so I don't have to carry too much. Amex says they can replace a lost Amex card in under 24 hours; I applied for one today in case it ever happens again.
-Dave
Actually, I wassuggesting the marathon run - I'm too old and creaky to try it myself, but thought you might be game. Needless to say, I did the system piecemeal - the 1996 re-ride of current lines in less than five months, riding about every third weekend, and of course other runs on now-gone lines in prior years.
Until next time...
Anon_e_mouse